Luxury Travel Companion Madison Montgomery

You’ll have to read between the lines to understand what this episode is all about. As a Luxury Travel Companion, Madison Montgomery offers more than just companionship. Take a peak inside the world of high class escorts as we talk celebrity NDAs, making thousands of dollars a night and the cost of breaking into the business. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Cold Weather Foods.

Madison Montgomery: 01:04

Pointless: 38:12

Top 5: 48:51

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Interview with Luxury Travel Companion Madison Montgomery

Nick VinZant 0:00

Hey welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, travel companions, and cold weather food,

Madison Montgomery 0:14

you are not a $4,000 a month girl, you are paid by the hour girl, you can make that in one day, sleazy and unsafe and scary. But after a couple of weeks of that, and when I when I go back to like my dating life, they're astounded by my skills like they're like, what?

Nick VinZant 0:40

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So I want to get right to our first guest. This is luxury travel companion, Madison Montgomery. So when we talk about a travel companion, is this about travel? Or is this kind of code for something else?

Madison Montgomery 1:10

It's code. A travel companion means that I am available to travel with you to travel to you, or whatever, but as an escort. So

Nick VinZant 1:25

as an escort, then I'm assuming sex is involved.

Madison Montgomery 1:29

two consenting adults making their own decisions can have sex. Yes.

Nick VinZant 1:36

How did you kind of get into this?

Madison Montgomery 1:39

When I was 2223, I had sugar daddy, that paid me a monthly allowance of 4000 a month. And when he went through a divorce, he couldn't provide that for me anymore. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do? So I told my best friend and I'm like, I don't know how to what I'm gonna do. And my friend. She was going out of town to work at a bar called the green door every month for one week. And she's she decided to confide in me and she said, that green door bar doesn't exist girl. I go up to San Francisco once a month, and work as an escort. And that's what you should do. You are not a $4,000 a month girl. You are a paid by the hour girl. You can make that in one day. And I was like, Are you serious? Is the state. And so anyways, that's how I got into being a professional sport because she introduced me to this whole new world. And I mean, I was spending multiple days a week with my sugar daddy for four gram. Um, but yeah, I do make 4000 in a day sometimes. No.

Nick VinZant 3:08

Were you conflicted about it? Or was this kind of like, Man, this is an easy decision.

Madison Montgomery 3:12

I was so scared. And she was like, Well, why don't you just come on one of my trips with me? And I was like, Yeah, okay, I guess that's fair. And she had me posted an ad. But when you first start as a sex worker, especially as a sport, it's very hard for you to get booked if you don't have establishment, like if you're not established, like social media, ads, different website verification services. So it was very slow for me that week. But she introduced the idea of doing what's called doubles, which means threesomes, so I would see her with a client. And we would do it that way. And that's how I got established.

Nick VinZant 4:13

What was that first time kind of like for you?

Madison Montgomery 4:15

I was so uncomfortable with it. Because it's like, you don't get to pick who your clients are, you know, like you do a rigorous screening process and make sure that they're safe to see, but you don't know what they look like. And that was something that I was like, Well, how can I do this? If I'm not attracted to them? And she kind of this provider. She like, told me that I had to get into a role. So it was like acting. And it is, some of it is or a lot of it was when I first started. And so I would have to get into this role. And that was really hard for me because I I was like, when I was seeing my sugar daddy, it was like, we were dating, you know, and I was attracted to, we like actually have a real connection. So this was different because it was like, very transactional. And like, I'm really not ever see that person again. And it's like an exchange, and it just felt like sleazy and unsafe and scary. But after a couple of weeks of that, and like, and then when I was making $10,000, in one week, to start, I was like, I'm doing this does not matter. And then I was able to get into character real quick, like, in my day to day life, I'm a different person from when I am out of

Nick VinZant 5:55

debt, you feel still feel kind of conflicted about it? No,

Madison Montgomery 5:59

not at all. Not at all. Oh, my gosh, most of my friends know that I'm a sex worker. My, my family, I think that they know, but it's like a don't ask questions. You don't want to know the answer to kind of thing, you know, because they know that I've done modeling my whole adult life, and Playboy, but I think they know, I think they just were not going to talk about it. What

Nick VinZant 6:28

do you think that made you okay with it? Was it just? Was it the money? Or is it just like, I just got used to this?

Madison Montgomery 6:34

What definitely the money the money has been saying. But when I say that I started as mostly acting, it was entirely it had to be an act for me, because I couldn't get into it. But now I don't feel like it's that much acting. It's like I'm giving a person an experience that, like is changing their life. So I don't know, I feel like I'm a I'm a giver. And I don't know, a lot of the time I'm a therapist, because I get to talk people through their issues on what's going on in their lives. And I'm really good at that. I'm a Pisces? I'm great. I'm an empath, I would say. And most of my encounters are, like, equally rewarding, like, other than monetarily, how

Nick VinZant 7:34

does an encounter usually work? Right? Is it kind of a date? Or is this like everybody knows what they're here for? Let's get to begin?

Madison Montgomery 7:42

Well, it depends. Typically, someone contacts me via an ad that they've seen, or I post on Twitter a lot about my availability, they text or email me, then I send them to my screening forum, they have to go through a screening process where I verify they are who they say they are, they have to provide their name, age, email, phone number, I screened that with a various number of sites, which I will not say which ones they are, because I don't know about them. And then if anything comes up on there, that's a red flag to me, then I typically don't see them. But if they're all good to go and their references, check out, we require most of us require provider references. So they'll provide to other providers information, and I will reach out to them. Ask if they're safe, as they would see them again, that kind of stuff. And so yeah, so if they pass the screening process, then it just depends. Like sometimes a guy wants to meet with me for an hour, that's my minimum time. And usually an hour is just, I either go to them, or they come to me and it's pretty, like wham bam, Thank you, ma'am. I just like a little bit, a little bit of conversation and then I get right into it. Um, but then what I'm what I prefer is like a preferred for me, but obviously, it's more expensive is like a dinner date where we go enjoy a meal and drinks together in public and then go back to my place or my hotel or their place, then it's more organic feeling like it feels like an actual date.

Nick VinZant 9:46

So as you know, I think it's listed officially as like a travel companion. Will people kind of fly you out specifically or how does that work?

Madison Montgomery 9:53

So, f m t y or fly me to you is the thing that most escorts offer. And that's the travel companion aspect of it. So yes, that is definitely like top tier, way more expensive, because we require much more of a deposit. We require flights to be covered. And most most girls ask for first class, but I'm like, I don't. I don't ask for First of all, I think that the concept of first class is ridiculous if they want to do that for me. Oh, yeah. But like, that's not something I require. Um, because I like to put my own flights. But yeah, they they pay for everything that is required for the travel for the travel time, and then my rate, which is 6500 for 24 hours. So

Nick VinZant 10:56

how is that like, kind of compared to other people who are in the industry? Is that pretty standard? Is that high? Is that lower?

Madison Montgomery 11:04

Everyone has their own thing? My hourly rate is 1000. So it's like, you're getting a really great deal. If you want to spend that much time with me, you know? And then my overnight if I'm just like, coming for the night, is 5500. So how do I compare to the other girls in the industry? Most girls are charging like $8,000 for 24 hours.

Nick VinZant 11:35

So then like how much? How much would you say that

Madison Montgomery 11:37

you make a year, around 300,000.

Nick VinZant 11:40

That's a lot of money. That's like life changing money.

Madison Montgomery 11:44

That includes other things as well. So travel companion score, Madison Montgomery is also dominatrix mistress Madison Hill, which I use to separate the two but not now that I've been phased out, me, I show my face and all my advertisements, and not blurred. I just know people are going to notice. So I just combined the two most people know that I'm the same person, but I do switch between different roles. So that's with both of those, which come at a different price point. And I also started doing full body central massage this year, which is at a different price point as well. Which is more busy. So I would say Madison during the travel companion escort is more of like the luxury service. And is I get less bookings that way, but I prefer longer bookings. So I would say I get like one or two a week. With that. And then with the others, it's way more consistent.

Nick VinZant 13:00

Yeah, yeah. But then you wouldn't have another another job outside of this. This is this is kind

Madison Montgomery 13:07

of I own my own business in the cosmetic world. And that's why wise,

Nick VinZant 13:13

was that and now is that kind of the retirement plan, so to speak, or was that just something that you've always done?

Madison Montgomery 13:19

Yeah, that was kind of the retirement plan. I actually consider or I actually announced that I retired this year when I was in a relationship and that was going to be the rest of my life as a med spa owner, but that didn't work out. So I'm back to the sex work, which is honestly the best, do you

Nick VinZant 13:41

really enjoy it? Or have you kind of like in any way convinced yourself that you enjoy it? Um,

Madison Montgomery 13:46

okay, so when I retired this year, it was only for a short time, I was so happy to be done with it, because it is really taxing. Like, I have to be on top of my shit all the time, I have to make sure that I look good all the time. Because, you know, unless you only allow yourself a number of days or a set schedule to take appointments, which is like doing yourself a disservice because some months are very busy and some months are very slow. And on those slow months, you have to like just be ready in case you get something but so yeah, I have to take care take excellent care of myself. I have to, like especially the touring. And in my opinion to be successful in this you have to tour you cannot only work in your home city because the people who live there are going to see you on the advertisements, and men like variety. And they're gonna, if they've already seen you, they're gonna get bored, you know, or they'll walk To see more people. So when I go on tours, when I make the most amount of money I make consistently 10,000 In one week, like, or sometimes 10,000 In two days. That's because when I come to these different cities that I don't live in, these guys are like, Oh my god, I have to see her this time, because I might not get another chance for like, another year, you know, um, so they hop on it, and then I'm slam packed with appointments for the time that I'm there. I enjoy it. Because I have the flexibility of my own schedule. I can afford this frickin amazing apartment that I otherwise probably wouldn't I love the that it gives me the lifestyle that I want. The things that I don't like about it, obviously, are that it's stigmatized, it's considered not legal, although you'll hear any provider say this, the donation is for my time and companionship only, which is true. Anything that is decided between two consenting adults is irrelevant to the donation. And it's hard on my body, you know, way more active than the average person.

Nick VinZant 16:23

When we talk about the sexual aspect of it. Is it kind of everything on the table? Whole thing? Or what are we kind of talking about in that regard?

Madison Montgomery 16:35

I have, I have some limits. Um, I I prefer it to be more sensual and like vanilla, I guess you could say, but I do offer trips to Greece, which is, you know, for $1,000 Extra. Um, but I don't allow like marks that would last past the appointment, such as like whipping or, like really hard to spanking or anything that would leave a bruise, which sometimes, unfortunately, that does happen. But I bruise easily, so I just don't like the rough play on me. So that's the limit. I don't allow come in my mouth. I just I can't like I'm not a porn star. Although I have only options, I can just like that's where I have to draw the line. But everyone's different. Some girls. Some girls do swallow. I said

Nick VinZant 17:52

why do they call it trips to Greece? I have never heard that before. Why is it

Madison Montgomery 17:56

that Oh, great. Can you can't like say aim on any advertisement. You can't even say Greek on some but like, that's the term I don't know why it's called that. I have no idea where that came from.

Nick VinZant 18:08

I just didn't really make any sense. Doesn't Yeah, so like when you talk about like the people that you're involved with? I'm assuming they're generally men.

Madison Montgomery 18:17

Yes. Although I see couples as well. I don't see just females though. It's too weird for me like I am. But in my personal life, I would say I'm hetero flexible. I have been in like three couples and I have dated girls but like it was kind of phase for me. I'm not fully bisexual, so I can't see what's going on. It's totally like out of my wheelhouse. So I see couples though. And that has been enjoyable. What

Nick VinZant 18:54

if you kind of like were to put them in a certain category or to stereotype them in a way like what would you say like what's the the men like? Was there a general age range general type? Like how would you kind of characterize most of them?

Madison Montgomery 19:07

Now that I've been in the business for a while and I'm very established I'd say most of my clientele is between 35 and 65 but when I first started it was a lot of younger guys which I it's kind of like stereotypical like that they are the most annoying like they don't they don't follow instructions they don't do their research well enough. And there are exceptions but typically I don't like to see anyone younger than me it just feels weird. Sometimes I will sometimes there are a respectable number gents that once a man but I weeded out you know, like when they contact me. I can tell who's who's serious and who's mature and who's not? And I? I can choose that way but what kind of, they're definitely like white collar most of the guys that see me just because of the price point. And when I said before that I do domination and FBS F BSM full body sensual massage. Those are typically blue collar type men, because it is a lot less. But I'm also not taking my clothes off, I'm not engaging in sexual activities, the full

Nick VinZant 20:42

body sensual massage like well, I don't know what that is. Well, I mean, like I know, obviously like what that is I understand what those words mean, but I don't know what that is. But the thing that it's not a rub and tug, like that's what I

Madison Montgomery 20:54

used to. That's what I've always had is that actually is, yeah, so Oh, okay. Yeah, it's like massage, happy ending. And I do that in a spa space, like an actual office that's a spa with that it's just topless. And they can pay extra if they want other services, even into the Jeffie range of services if they would like but it's a massage office space. It's just great. But it's not like, private and it's like, as private as being in your own hotel room, or in my home. And there's, you know,

Nick VinZant 21:35

I have a good friend that I went to high school with. And that was his thing he went to, he would call them Robin tugs, and he would pay $25. And I always thought that I didn't even know if that was, is that cheap or expensive? That's

Madison Montgomery 21:47

cheap. That's insane. Maybe that was a long time ago. But my hourly for that is $400. That seems like a lot. And I actually do deep tissue massage. So

Nick VinZant 22:03

oh, you actually get a massage too.

Madison Montgomery 22:04

It's not just like a full body massage. And it's that's hard work. Like, you know, so. But then I'm also in lingerie. And it's a whole at the end of last five minutes.

Nick VinZant 22:25

Yeah, I would imagine by the time you get to the end, it doesn't take very long

Madison Montgomery 22:28

doesn't. It's quick.

Nick VinZant 22:32

Like second? Are we talking seconds or at least minute?

Madison Montgomery 22:35

Um, it's mostly five. That's all

Nick VinZant 22:38

right. Like I feel like okay, that's not bad guys. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Madison Montgomery 22:44

Harder? Hey, yeah. Can

Nick VinZant 22:48

you have a normal life? Do you feel like you can have a normal life with this kind of job?

Madison Montgomery 22:53

Totally. I do have a normal life. I, I travel a lot. Sometimes I'll combine my personal travel with tours. I just did that in Miami. I was there for a whole week and I went to a music festival which is my number one hobby. I'm a huge raver and raper for 15 years. And all that covered and I had the best time of my life because I can spend money freely and, and come home with money like still. So I would say that the hardest part of normal life is dating. Like, you know, am I in my last relationship that didn't work out. Like I really thought he was my soulmate. He knew everything about me being a sex worker. And initially, he accepted it, but then he used it against me later, even after I had retired. So it was it's like, I get it. Like I don't think that if I was a man, I don't think that I would do a sex worker. But then it's like hard because I deserve love, you know, like, so eventually? I don't know. Like, that's the question I get a lot is like, what's your end game because you do want to be in a relationship. But at this at this stage of my life after that one, I don't want to retire anytime soon. So dating is just not on my priority list like and all of my friends love me for who I am so and they're supportive of it. And some of them who were before knowing that I am one or before knowing me. Were part of that societal stigma that hates on sex work. They have like a new change mindset on it which is really Nice because they see that I'm still like, a normal person.

Nick VinZant 25:05

This one's kind of interesting in the sense that, like, has this heightened or ruined your sex drive?

Madison Montgomery 25:11

I have always been, like, a little free. Like, even since I was a teenager. Like, it's not shocking, you know, like looking at my, my childhood and growing up and how, like risky I was, um, has it heightened it? I would say yeah. Because like, I am way more experienced than the average person my age and I even was what, like five years ago at 25. So I'm still horny, and I actually like do do enjoy. And I get off for most of my appointments like, I'm not faking that part for for. I mean, I have to have some but like, I'm good at it.

Nick VinZant 26:07

Do they want you to? Do they want you to like fake it? If you're

Madison Montgomery 26:11

not? Oh, they don't want me to fake it? I mean, they're gonna be heartbroken to know, some of them. But, um, they want me to get off for sure. It's not just all about them, like a lot of them want to please Me too. Oh,

Nick VinZant 26:28

I think this person is asking this is kind of like, because we had an adult film star that was on one time. And the question was kind of similar in the sense. And they asked him like, do you feel like you're actually good at sex? And the lady was like, No, not really. She was an adult film star about it. She's like, I don't really think that I am. So the question would be like, are you? Do you feel like you're good at it?

Madison Montgomery 26:51

I'm great at it. Like, and when I when I go back to like my dating life. They're astounded by my skills. Like they're like, What? The school is, like, way exceeding my expectations, which maybe I should have been like, a little bit more like I don't usually do this, you know, but then I don't believe so. Right.

Nick VinZant 27:19

Right. What do you like? What are you doing? Like, what's I have so

Madison Montgomery 27:23

much more experience than the skills? You know, like,

Nick VinZant 27:28

what is your most interesting request? Actually, it's two part question, what is your most common request? What is your most interesting request,

Madison Montgomery 27:35

it's pretty like all the same, like, they want me to do oral and then they want all the positions. Some sometimes they want me to wear something specific, like a lot of guys like the secretary Business Club, because they want it to be kind of like a roleplay situation, which is fine. I take outfit requests most people do, except for if I'm touring that can't be too specific. But obviously I'm traveling I don't have my full wardrobe. Um, but I don't I don't know what my most common request is, I guess. I sometimes get requested for doubles. And I've known to do doubles with other girls in the industry. Doubles means the three something again, so that's a request. Again, that comes at a really high price point because it's double the rate, you know, so not a lot of people can afford that and that's why it's like I don't get many of those. It's like a once in a while thing, but those are the requests I get.

Nick VinZant 28:45

What would you say is probably your most interesting what do you would you say is kind of your most interesting or unique one.

Madison Montgomery 28:50

I'm dressing up in cosplay, I guess because of my hair color and my my bodies. My body is like very hourglass and I have huge Ted's and huge ass that I look like a comic book character. So a lot of them want me to dress in cosplay. That's my most interesting one, I guess. And I love doing that. I love drafting or cartoon characters like Jessica Rabbit I get called that all the time. They want me to, like enact reenact scenes from just rather Roger Rabbit movies. And then poison ivy I've done a ton Jean Grey. So as a high score, I'm a I'm a G F E F score, girlfriend experience. Typically, like I am, you're you're hiring me to be your part time girlfriend. So I'm going to do what a girlfriend would do for the amount of time that I'm spending with you. And another type of escort is called P S E it's fun. I'm sorry, experience, and I get that request a lot. But I am not a porn star. Like, I do have only fans and I make content like a couple of different guys. Like, like foreign content, but I'm not a porn star. I'm not like, I can't, I'm not doing like, all the crazy shit that you see in foreign. And so that's a request that I deny. Because typically there are no limits and and guys just want to like Facebook me for a whole hour and I'm not cool with that like, yeah, like, that's not me.

Nick VinZant 30:37

Do you have to pay taxes? Yes, I do. But do you pay taxes on this? Like, how do you

Madison Montgomery 30:44

So okay, so most high end, establishment riders require deposits I have for the last. I didn't for like the first two years. So I have for the last five to six years now. And that is sent electronically most of the time. So Cash App Zell. Some people accept them. I don't have anymore PayPal, you know, all that. I pay taxes on that. And then whatever I put into the bank, I have to because they have to, you know, it's coming from somewhere and I don't want to be audited. What

Nick VinZant 31:30

do you put? What do you put down as the occupation then

Madison Montgomery 31:33

self employed and I do on a business? So that's

Nick VinZant 31:38

really the only issue that I would have with it is like, look, I'm I'm pay taxes, you got to pay taxes too long as you're paying taxes,

Madison Montgomery 31:45

I am paying taxes, and I live in California and the taxes are very high. But I love what is

Nick VinZant 31:52

it dangerous? Like do you worry about your safety at all?

Madison Montgomery 31:55

I definitely did when I first started, I was like, How can this be safe? How can I ensure that the people who are contacting me are not law enforcement. And that was that that stressor was alleviated by those screening process. I screen every single person that I see. And they have to provide me a lot of information. So if they're not willing to do that, I will not see them if they if their information doesn't check out I want see them. And then the thing with the law enforcement is, well, I figured out a couple not send you money prior to meeting you. So they can't provide a deposit. Now I have actually seen law enforcement that do provide me their information. They're just doing it on the side, and they are very upfront about their occupation. Yeah, as I have seen a few cops, it

Nick VinZant 32:56

is D Do you feel from a legal standpoint? Do you feel like this is something that law enforcement is actively going after? Like?

Madison Montgomery 33:05

No, I don't, I would say they it's more cause for concern. And people get in trouble when it's like, they like, like someone has gotten involved with an escort who is currently going through a divorce, and they get proof of it. And then, you know, they find that there's this sort of affair happening. And then again, with all those review sites, like it's that information can be used against you.

Nick VinZant 33:41

Have you ever had any famous clients? Um,

Madison Montgomery 33:44

I have? I have I cannot name them

Nick VinZant 33:49

on a scale of one to 10 Like how famous Do you think we're talking

Madison Montgomery 33:53

10 for a few

Nick VinZant 33:57

actor athlete, can you give us the industry?

Madison Montgomery 34:02

Um, actors slash TV personality? And a couple athletes.

Nick VinZant 34:12

Is that pretty common?

Madison Montgomery 34:13

No.

Nick VinZant 34:14

Did you know who they will guess with the verification you found out? Yeah, was your reaction when you like, oh, that's persons famous? Well,

Madison Montgomery 34:22

I had to do even more screening because sometimes I'll get screening forms from people who say that there's somebody that but they're not and they're just lying. So it's like, there's no way this person is contacting me and like out of the zillion options that there are like, I know I'm hot but like, there's there's hotter ones, like you know, um, I would say that the Las Vegas escorts get way more of that because is there's a whole different market over there. But yeah, I've had a few, but it's very rare, very rare. And you have to sign a bunch of, like NDAs and all that, or I did. So.

Nick VinZant 35:20

What is your busiest month? What is your slowest month? Man?

Madison Montgomery 35:24

It varies. But the last two months have been amazing for me. October and September were killer. Like, I was like, when I announced on Twitter, which I have 30,000 followers there. And that's where I interact with my fans, I guess the most and then only fans as well. When I announced that I was retiring people who are like, shattered, like they were like, no, like, I've been saving up for this amount of time to see you and like, I'll never get to see you anymore. We're like, upset but then they were really happy for me because I was in love at the time. So then when I announced that that relationship didn't work out, and I was back in the game, I think people were like, oh, no, wait, we better get after it. Like before this happens again, you know, in case she does retire again. So I don't know if it's because of that, or it's because of just like my increasing popularity on social media or what but the last two months were amazing. I will say that the worst months typically are the holiday months, November and December. So we're into November now. And yep. I have been noticing that it is crickets like I have not been busy with that with the GFP stuff this month. The FPS admin domination stuff is more consistent. But yeah, I'm getting a low.

Nick VinZant 37:02

That's pretty much all the questions we have. Is there anything that you think that we missed? Or how can people kind of get a hold of you if they are interested in learning more?

Madison Montgomery 37:12

Miss Madison montgomery.com is my website and that has all of my social links on it. I'm on Instagram, Twitter and Twitter ex people are calling it now. I always say Twitter because I've been on there since 2016. But, um, top apps, Instagram, my website and then on my website are all of my verification platforms, which I'm not gonna say on here, but you can find it there. I want

Nick VinZant 37:47

to thank Madison so much for coming on the show if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on November 9, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of this show. If you were to go into the male escort lifestyle, how much do you think you could charge someone for an hour of your time?

John Shull 38:26

Can you can you wait what is like a cut? Do you know what an average rate is? Why would you know what that is?

Nick VinZant 38:30

Okay, so $1,000 would be like pretty high class.

John Shull 38:37

See, I think I think I could get up to maybe 500 But only only if I had like a stick. Like I don't know chubby cheeks or chubby chaser or something or like, you know, you

Nick VinZant 38:50

would have like a marketing gimmick and you think you could get like 500 an hour.

John Shull 38:54

Yeah, like you know, like Let's wrestle like let's stage a professional wrestling match or something. Ah,

Nick VinZant 38:59

like taking you want to you want to you want to hit the mat with Chucky Cheese. Yeah,

John Shull 39:03

there you go. See? Yeah, you know, over.

Nick VinZant 39:07

I'd be happy if I got 100 bucks an hour.

John Shull 39:09

I mean, listen, if I if I'm not doing a gimmick. I mean, I'd be lucky to even get a client I think,

Nick VinZant 39:16

think of how many male gigolos are out there with no clients. There's when

John Shull 39:21

when do you decide to hang it up? That's my question. Like when do you when do you decide that? Like this is probably not what I should be doing with my life.

Nick VinZant 39:30

Probably pretty quickly. I think that if you're like a male escort, and you don't have any clients in the first month, I don't think it's gonna happen for you.

John Shull 39:41

Yeah. That that is I tell you this that that lifestyle is not one that I ever want to partake in. I think I would be absolutely terrified of it.

Nick VinZant 39:54

terrified of being a male escort. Yeah,

John Shull 39:56

I know. It sounds I know it sounds great. And I No, and maybe it is great. I have no idea but I just going from different person a different person every night to never knowing the situation really, just I don't know, it's too much of

Nick VinZant 40:11

a control freak for that. Too much anxiety to be a male escort.

John Shull 40:16

I'm gonna sit me down in a room where I have to talk. Maybe I make 100 bucks an hour. You put me up in a room naked against five other guys. I'm probably walking out with nothing. Probably neg I probably have to pay them just to be there.

Nick VinZant 40:28

Hey, man, I'm in the same boat. I'm not getting any money off of it either.

John Shull 40:33

I mean, at least at least you're you know, you can market yourself one way. I mean, there is a market for little shorter men. I'm sure.

Nick VinZant 40:40

It's even even there. I'm not I'm splitting the difference. Like I'm just slightly I'm like at the low end of average. like nobody's like, do you want somebody who's at the lower end of average? Like no, he's either gotta be taller little and you just kind of right there. Like I've got no marketing.

John Shull 40:58

Alright, last question on this. Do you remember the show Cat House on HBO? Nope. All right, that, like he said, Let's go to shout outs here. Thiago Torres. Joe hooky. Christian Albrecht tre Hallo. Joe Collins. Ryan Motley. That's a cool last name. Motley is always a good like a good name. Jared Ray Hall, Jose Aponte. Tori field. And Monica Cortez.

Nick VinZant 41:31

I think the worst last name anybody could possibly have is farts.

John Shull 41:36

farts like just farts. Like farts?

Nick VinZant 41:40

Could you imagine growing up with the last name farts?

John Shull 41:45

I've never known anyone to have that last name. I didn't know somebody that had the last name of booger.

Nick VinZant 41:51

That's still not as bad as farts though.

John Shull 41:53

Yeah, farts is pretty bad. Farts would be the worst

Nick VinZant 41:57

last name that you could possibly have. I can't think of a single worse last name than farts.

John Shull 42:05

I mean, has there anyone ever has there been anyone in the history of the world with the last name of farts? There's there has to have been?

Nick VinZant 42:12

There are over 2000 census records available for somebody with the last name fart.

John Shull 42:17

Jesus. That's a lot.

Nick VinZant 42:19

You gotta you would have to change that so fast. Oh my god, there's a whole group. There's Anna fart Bob fart Elizabeth fart. George fart Henry fart James fart John fart, you would have to change that. You could not have the last name farts.

John Shull 42:37

And is it spelled like F AR t like, it's not like F AR T.

Nick VinZant 42:42

Man. There's a lot of like the all of the jokes would be endless. You would hear you would be made fun of for your last name of farts, every single interaction with another person.

John Shull 42:53

And I'm sure that never would get old. Kind of like in the male escort business. All you need 30 seconds.

Nick VinZant 42:58

That would be my marketing technique. That would be my ad though. It'd be like Nick VinZant doesn't charge by the hour because all it's gonna take is 30 seconds.

John Shull 43:09

Just one flat fee for the whole time.

Nick VinZant 43:11

Right? It'd be like 10 bucks. Well, you know that 10 bucks. That's pretty cheap. Well, it's only the last 30 seconds. I would market myself based on like, it would be like a drive thru. I would market myself on speed rather than ability. Yeah, but I mean, really get in and out realistically

John Shull 43:27

in and out like Jiffy Lube. Yeah, but if you're only doing 10 bucks a pop, realistically, you're only going to be able to do it. Six to seven times in an hour.

Nick VinZant 43:39

You could do it six to seven times in an hour. I thought you're gonna say a month. There's no way I could do it six to seven times in an hour. Sure. You could I mean, you're Oh, I guess if it's I'm not doing it. Maybe I get them. Nevermind. This is

John Shull 43:53

spiraling out of control. All right. Let's go to some other things that make no sense. A couple of questions for you. Christmas music is it okay to play before Thanksgiving?

Nick VinZant 44:05

No, it is not okay to put Christmas it is not okay to have Christmas music before Thanksgiving. It is not okay to put Christmas decorations up inside your house before Thanksgiving. But I think that you can put your Christmas lights up as early as right now. Outdoor decorations are acceptable Christmas lights can go up now. Christmas decorations can't go up until after Thanksgiving in like we're talking about like candy canes out in the front yard that kind of stuff but lights can go up now. Everything else has to wait for after Thanksgiving. So

John Shull 44:34

what do you do if you walk into somebody's house right now? And they have it's all decorated for Christmas?

Nick VinZant 44:42

Well, I mean nothing it's somebody like what am I gonna do like punch him in the face? Fucking tear it down.

John Shull 44:46

Yeah, that's that's I just

Nick VinZant 44:47

feel like an adult. Sure. You would indicate in rage. Yes. Like yes. I think stabbing with a knife. Like let's I didn't go I would criticize. It'd be like that's too early.

John Shull 44:57

I mean, I was hoping that murder but it's fine. All right. Once again, I don't know how this how these things always match up. But one of the questions I had for you is actually kind of what we were talking about. And it's how much would it take for you to do some kind of show? Or something nude in front of an audience?

Nick VinZant 45:19

Do I have any time to prepare? Can I like prepare the body and slim it down? Or am I just have to go out there right now? It's

John Shull 45:26

tough to go out there right now say it's tonight.

Nick VinZant 45:30

Oh, you're gonna I'm gonna have to, like it's gonna have to change my life. I'm gonna have to get life changing money or life changing like exposure or something like that. Like it's gonna have to be life changing. I'm not doing it for like, 100 bucks. I'm not doing it for 10 grand. It's gonna have to be life changing for me to be naked in public. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right.

John Shull 45:52

I don't think it was how much

Nick VinZant 45:53

did you do it for?

John Shull 45:54

I mean, let's say you have a much nicer physique than me. And I think I would do it for relatively cheap. I mean, I do it for five digits. You

Nick VinZant 46:02

do it for five digits. See, the thing is, too is my advantage is that because I am a thing thinner man, mine will appear bigger.

John Shull 46:11

I didn't say that was had to be something sexual.

Nick VinZant 46:13

Maybe they want you're still going to be out there with your wiener just hanging around. I

John Shull 46:17

mean, I don't i Aren't we at the age in our life where who even cares anymore? If it's what the size is, as long as it still works.

Nick VinZant 46:26

It's not that I care. It's that I care what I personally don't like what I like what I look like. That's why I'm I mean, you know what, like, if I don't have the confidence right now, it would have to be life changing money.

John Shull 46:39

Okay. Well, if anyone's looking for somebody to do something nude and has life changing money, dicks waiting for your call.

Nick VinZant 46:46

I'm your guy. I'm here guys don't have

John Shull 46:48

a big cold outside or inside. I don't know why I was thinking about this. But would you rather lose your life savings and a robbery? or going to the casino and blowing it on black?

Nick VinZant 47:05

Oh, I think I would rather be robbed. Because at that point, I could at least blame it on somebody else. And I could potentially get it back. If you go to the casino, you've got nobody else to blame, but you and you made a bad decision. And you're not getting that back. Yeah, I'd rather be robbed. I

John Shull 47:28

mean, I dabbled a little bit on in Draft Kings and things and in the casino when it's like when you lose 10 bucks in two hands. You just feel shitty? I couldn't imagine losing serious money.

Nick VinZant 47:41

I've never been a gambler. I have never really like I'll like to go to Vegas. And I like to kind of like gamble to hang out with my friends. But I have never enjoyed gambling. Never. I wouldn't bet $1 Like that's Oh, I just lost that dollar.

John Shull 47:57

I can speak from experience that you are one instigating sob.

Nick VinZant 48:04

Oh, yeah, I like watching other people lose money. A

John Shull 48:06

lot of buddy. hundreds of dollars. I've saved $100

Nick VinZant 48:08

Yeah, I'm double it. Double Down, double down. I just sorry, Ryan. It's what Murray lost all your money. Well,

John Shull 48:18

my room comes. Yeah, well, you got that. But you went home empty handed. So I

Nick VinZant 48:23

didn't know he didn't even get his room calm. Just to write people on this story. We have a friend a mutual friend John and I who gambled away pretty much all of his winnings because of us. And then he just managed to scream out. I want my room comped over and over, because you're so drunk. Those are the only words that you could form in English language. And he didn't get his room company lost like $1,600

John Shull 48:44

Anyways, that's really all I had today. That's it. That was it. Oh, wow. Went through. Okay, what's there.

Nick VinZant 48:50

Okay, so our top five is top five cold weather foods. Once you number five, it's

John Shull 48:56

a combo, but it's a delicious combo, and that's tomato soup and grilled cheese.

Nick VinZant 49:03

I don't understand the cold weather appeal of that.

John Shull 49:06

It's soup. It's a hot sandwich.

Nick VinZant 49:12

I mean, I think grilled cheese is good all year round. I don't personally see tomato soup and maybe I don't personally see grilled cheese as a cold weather meal to be honest with you. It's just It's just I mean, saying different than cheeseburger you wouldn't say a cheeseburger is a cold weather meal.

John Shull 49:27

No, but it's you know, I I listen, it's all it's all a presumption, right? I presume that that's a combo in the winter that I only eat during the winter. Which

Nick VinZant 49:41

is ironic because tomatoes aren't good in the winter. Well, so you're eating it at the right time, right? You're not eating fresh during some. Anyway, I can go on on this. My number five is chicken noodle soup. Warm, makes you feel better. chicken noodle soup I think is a good cold weather fuzzy

John Shull 49:59

to me. That's all year round soup.

Nick VinZant 50:03

Let's get you sick all the time and you live in Detroit. Well, it sucks

John Shull 50:09

I honestly have nothing for that. What am I gonna respond? I got I got off and I you know Detroit doesn't suck but it doesn't

Nick VinZant 50:16

matter. You're not going to eat. You're going to eat chicken noodle soup in July. Yeah, I

John Shull 50:21

did. Actually. I did just this past July because I got sick.

Nick VinZant 50:26

Yeah, but if you're not sick, you're not eating chicken noodle soup.

John Shull 50:29

No, but why else would you eat chicken noodle soup? I think chicken noodle soup is probably the one of the most overrated soups in the history of soups.

Nick VinZant 50:39

I would say tomato soup to me is one of the most his overrated soups, but I don't disagree with it. I don't. I'm not gonna say that. I like chicken noodle soup. Particularly. It's okay. But it I think of it as a cold weather food. What's your number four?

John Shull 50:53

So like a pot pie? Like a chicken pot pie?

Nick VinZant 50:57

Yeah. Chicken pot pie is the kind of thing that you have in cold weather. Oh, it's I agree.

John Shull 51:02

And Pro Tip Make your own. Like you can buy the frozen ones but make your own and it's even better. It's not hard to make either. Very easy.

Nick VinZant 51:12

chicken potpie? Seems like a lot of work. That looks like a lot of work. To be honest.

John Shull 51:17

It's not it's not really which. Oh, is

Nick VinZant 51:19

it much easier when you got 15 kinds of tongs at your house? How many tongs you got now?

John Shull 51:23

Why Why? Why? Just why with the tongue? Why would

Nick VinZant 51:27

you have more than one tongue? I will never understand.

John Shull 51:31

You know what, I just bought baking tongs. So you're welcome. So how many

Nick VinZant 51:35

pairs of tongs do you have now? How are the baking tongs different from the how many other pairs of tongs did you have baking

John Shull 51:41

tongs have a little bit more of a round edge on the end. So you can pick up things you know, in cupcake pans and other bakery items. That way, you don't have to like use a knife or toothpick to kind of round them out. You can just get the tongs in there and lift them out nice and gently.

Nick VinZant 52:00

So how many pairs of tongs Do you have?

John Shull 52:03

I don't know. Probably, like I said probably between 15 and 20. Maybe.

Nick VinZant 52:09

And you really between 15 and 20 tongs, you said to yourself of all of these tongs, I just don't have the right tongs to get this cupcake. I need something else.

John Shull 52:18

I mean, listen, there are several kinds of tongs for several different

Nick VinZant 52:23

things. There's lots of kinds of forks, they're all a fork.

John Shull 52:27

Yeah, if you're the one arguing this, I'm not. I'm

Nick VinZant 52:30

the one arguing that you don't need anything like right, I don't think it's the tongue. I think it's the person operating the tongue. I mean, maybe you need to work on some manual dexterity. Get your coordination up so that you can use tongs properly. And you don't need the exact specific thing, right.

John Shull 52:47

I mean, let's let me live my life. I'm

Nick VinZant 52:49

just saying you should be able to use a hammer for more than one thing than just hitting nails. Here's

John Shull 52:53

the thing. All right, get you a pair of bread tongs, it'll change your life.

Nick VinZant 52:59

You have bread tongs to like reach into a sandwich bag, a bag of bread that you get from the supermarket to pull out the piece of bread.

John Shull 53:07

No, I have bread tongs for the toaster. So I don't have to stick my finger in there and get burned. Do

Nick VinZant 53:13

it like a man. Push the thing down and then pop it out fast enough so it shoots out of there and then grab it. Reach in there. No,

John Shull 53:22

that's wild buy a 99 cent pair of bamboo bread tongs.

Nick VinZant 53:28

I can't believe that right? Like if I saw somebody that was next to a toaster who was like oh, I can't get it and then turned around and walked across the kitchen got a pair of tongs and then came back and then got it out. You're gonna get made fun of in my house.

John Shull 53:42

I'll tell you that much. Okay, okay. All right.

Nick VinZant 53:44

Let me see gonna laugh at you. My number four is casseroles any kind of casserole I think casserole is a great cold weather food. Any kind of casseroles it is it's I'm gonna throw it so goulash on there as well. I'll throw goulash I consider goulash to be a casserole in my mind.

John Shull 53:59

It is I think, yeah, I mean anything like that is delicious. Once again, I kind of have those all year round, but I could see how they could be labeled as a cold weather food.

Nick VinZant 54:10

Okay, okay, so number three,

John Shull 54:12

my number three is actually not food but it kind of is food.

Nick VinZant 54:18

Are you going to say what I'm the family is yours. Is your three about to be what my number three is? No,

John Shull 54:24

I don't think so. Because I don't think he partaken number three, but saying that my number three is any kind of dark beer like a stout or something like that. Something heavy. Something that you drink primarily in the wintertime.

Nick VinZant 54:40

Okay, I can see a darker beer being a winter drink mine number three is hot chocolate. Okay.

John Shull 54:45

That's yeah, that's that's a good one. I was thinking about putting that on my list, but I don't know I I'm just not a big fan of hot chocolate.

Nick VinZant 54:58

I'm not really a big fan. I have a whole hot chocolate. Hot chocolate to me is one of those things that you can have about half of it and then you're like, Okay, that's enough of that. I don't I never really want a full glass of hot chocolate. Hot chocolate. Half is good. Yeah, I mean, it's not even like half of what it would be however much you give me I want half of that. I

John Shull 55:19

mean, you're you're gonna tell me to, to you know, go all the way and drink all the hot chocolate there. All right, come

Nick VinZant 55:25

on. Unlike It doesn't taste that good after a little while. Makes

John Shull 55:29

makes my mouth burn.

Nick VinZant 55:32

Oh, you got tongs for the hot. Do you have special tongs to get the marshmallows out of the hot chocolate? I mean, do you have a special Hot Shot marshmallow? Tongs?

John Shull 55:40

I mean, I do have marshmallow tongs? Yes.

Nick VinZant 55:44

Do you really have marshmallows? Yeah, they stick together sometimes

John Shull 55:47

the marshmallows when they get a little old, so you gotta you know, you gotta have low tongs for him. You

Nick VinZant 55:54

can't use your hands. Yeah, sure. That's That's what I mean. The tongue is more of a pain in the ass to go get a pair of tongs and to separate them.

John Shull 56:04

Listen, don't question don't question the man. All right, it's fine. Nothing

Nick VinZant 56:09

just waste your money on stupid shit. Go ahead for it.

John Shull 56:13

To as any kind of, like pot roast. Something like that. You know? Like, I don't want to say Turkey like but like think of it like a Thanksgiving meal like a pot roast with some stuffing or something like that just but I'll just say pot roast just for the sake of it. Is

Nick VinZant 56:30

a pot roast is stew. Does that count as a stew? No,

John Shull 56:34

I don't think so. Because I usually make my pot roast. Like as the meat. There's not a lot of it's not in a stew usually you can put in a stew. But

Nick VinZant 56:47

do you make him in a pot? Sometimes

John Shull 56:48

Sometimes I try to smoke it, which is even worse because it gets gets gets all dried out which is sometimes can be delicious, but it's the very delicate meat.

Nick VinZant 56:59

Okay, okay. Sure. Chicken and dumplings.

John Shull 57:03

When's the last time you had dumplings?

Nick VinZant 57:09

tossed by been like 10 years. Yeah,

John Shull 57:10

no, that's not something that people just make. I feel on the regular is dumplings.

Nick VinZant 57:15

I love chicken dumplings, though. It's fantastic. I want some now. Well, it is that's like a food that you haven't eaten in a long time. And then you bring it back and then you're like, Oh, I'm gonna eat that all the time. I want chicken and dumplings. Okay, what's your I think our number one's going to be the same. Yeah,

John Shull 57:30

I think so too. Does it start with a C? It does. Yeah, it's Yep, definitely cumin powder.

Nick VinZant 57:37

Cumin. I was gonna put it well. Yeah, chili is obviously

John Shull 57:41

no might have been forever. My number one is a cheese stick. Is it really a cheese? Oh, of course. Chili. Of course. It's

Nick VinZant 57:50

Chili's fucking amazing. Chili is the ultimate cold weather food, I think. Right? Yeah,

John Shull 57:55

it's because it's hearty. There's several ways you can make it. It's 100% customizable. Chili may actually be one of the top 30 foods ever.

Nick VinZant 58:09

I would agree with that. I could go I could go top 15 I could go a little bit higher. I could put chili

John Shull 58:17

and I'm gonna keep it by 30

Nick VinZant 58:21

I can put chili in the top 15 of all my foods because I'm thinking like pizza hamburger cheeseburger. I do like some chili man. I like some chili. What do you have? What do you have in your honorable mention?

John Shull 58:33

So I have hot chocolate? I have apple cider. hot apple cider is delicious. What you're insane um, speaking of Apple like apple pie, like some kind of like pumpkin pie like a you know, a fall pies. Those are always delicious as well. Hmm. Okay.

Nick VinZant 58:51

Okay. And

John Shull 58:52

that's, that's kind of I did have stew on here but I don't like beef stew, I guess.

Nick VinZant 59:00

Yeah, I have stews in general that are on there. But in my mind is stew is a lot like a casserole. I know. Those are completely different things, but it's kind of like a thing where you put a whole bunch of shit together. i The other thing that I have on there is cranberries. Because you can get like, you get cranberries at Thanksgiving and get some cranberry pie. Like cranberry makes a resurgence. I feel like in the winter months. Yeah,

John Shull 59:24

yeah. I mean. Yeah, you're right. I mean, we all drink cranberry juice. I feel like in the summertime, but actual cranberries are probably in the fall.

Nick VinZant 59:35

Pies. I would say pie is more of a winter dessert. Pie is a winter dessert. You're not eating a lot of pies in the summer. So

John Shull 59:43

it depends. Ah okay, that's gonna go

Nick VinZant 59:47

ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you give it if you get a chance. Leave us a quick review doesn't have to be some big thing. Just a couple of quick words. It really helps us Saudi really supports the show. We really appreciate it and let us know what you think are some of the best cold weather foods? I think it's really hard to be chilly. Like chili is the quintessential cold weather foods. But if you have any other things that you're really like man this this is this is it? Let us know

Sugar Dating with Sugar Baby McKenna King

Sugar Dating is when an older, wealthy man provides for a young, beautiful woman in exchange for companionship and physical intimacy. But what is Sugar Dating really like? McKenna King has been Sugar Dating for nearly a decade. We talk Sugar Babies and Sugar Daddies, allowances and agreements, and why more people are turning to Sugar Dating. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Personality Traits.

McKenna King: 01:12

Pointless: 39:37

Top 5 Personality Traits: 56:47

Contact the Show

McKenna King Twitter (X)

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McKenna King Website

McKenna King Blog

Interview with Sugar Baby McKenna King

Nick VinZant 0:00

Hey welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode sugar dating, and personality traits,

McKenna King 0:16

when I first got into sugar dating, there definitely was, I thought that, okay, sugar dating, there is this expectation where there has to be sex, you know, he's giving me something, I have to give something back in return, I started to be a lot more open, because I felt like I was living two lives. And I didn't want to have to hide certain aspects of my life, from the people that I cared about. And that's when it sunk in, I was like, he was married the whole time, I really knew nothing about him, I want

Nick VinZant 0:45

to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is a sex worker, who has been doing sugar dating for nearly a decade. This is McKennitt King. So what is sugar dating,

McKenna King 1:14

it's usually a younger woman who is seeking a financial arrangement with typically an older gentleman, and somebody who's established in their career has, you know, some financial success, and they agree on an arrangement for a relationship. And as, as opposed to like a traditional relationship. It's, it typically centers around the the financial aspect, you know, like there is an agreement of a certain allowance, or, I mean, it doesn't always involve in allowance, there could just be like, shopping trips or gifts, or, you know, it's it's kind of a nuanced thing, because not all arrangements are alike, but there is usually a financial aspect to it.

Nick VinZant 2:10

So, you know, when we talk about an arrangement, right, like, is this a verbal agreement that kind of gets worked out before that it even starts? Or is this something that you kind of figure out throughout the relationship? Or do you go in, it's like, Nope, you're gonna give me this, this and this, and I'm going to do this.

McKenna King 2:28

I think that kind of depends on how you find your sugar daddy, or, or whoever you're establish this relationship with. Like, for me, personally, my first arrangement, I didn't even really realize it was an arrangement until I was in it. And it just, it just so happened, I was living with an older gentleman, he offered his home to me, under the condition that I looked after his dog. And at the time, I needed a place to live, I was like, fuck, I gotta get out of my sister's house. So like this, you know, this just kind of landed in my lap as an opportunity. And I didn't think of it in that sense as sugar dating, then. But now that I kind of look back on it and reflect on it. I'm like, Yeah, that's exactly what it was. It was an arrangement, he gave me a place to live. He, you know, paid all the utilities paid all the bills paid for all the food, I didn't have to worry about anything, all I had to worry about was taking his dog outside. So it was it was pretty convenient. And then there was the sexual aspect to it. Like that kind of followed along afterwards. So of course, it was it was consensual, like, there was a discussion around it. But it wasn't under the scope of it being an arrangement or sugar dating at that time. It just kind of fell into that. It, it kind of opened the door to starting to seek that out. And there are different, like sugar dating websites, you know, just like a dating website, except it's, it's specifically for that for finding an arrangement.

Nick VinZant 4:20

When we look at kind of the age differences that you've experienced, right? Like, are we talking? Five years? 10 years? 20 years, like 50 years, like what is the age range difference that you've generally dealt with?

McKenna King 4:33

I mean, I've I've had arrangements with people closer to my own age. I think the gap might have been maybe like, six, seven years, so he wasn't that much older than myself. And then I think maybe the the oldest guy I had been with was probably in his late 50s, early 60s. So there is like quite a bit of a There can be an age gap there. And it depends on what you're looking forward to. Because I'm, I feel like there isn't there is a certain demographic of men that don't necessarily want to have a really obvious, you know, when they're out in public like, age gap, right? Like they don't, they don't want that scrutiny from the public. Like, why is this old dude walking around with like a 20 year old college girl. So I think that's maybe that's kind of worked to my benefit because I'm in my 30s now and I've always been a little bit more mature for my age. So maybe I've kind of attracted to that older generation of sugar daddies. And that's it's worked for me. But I've, I've also been with guys who are, you know, late 30s, early 40s. So I think anybody who was younger than 30 is probably going to be a bit of a waste of time. And I, I don't mean that to be rude to certain men who are still like, creating that financial success for themselves. But if I see a profile on one of these dating sites, and the guy's you know, mid 20s, late 20s, I don't generally take it as seriously because I was barely financially established in my mid to late 20s. So you kind of gotta take that with a grain of salt. Like, unless this, this guy's like a trust fund kid, like, where are you getting this crazy amount of money? Where you can have this kind of financial relationship? Like, how are you affording it? And is it something that's gonna be sustainable? So, you know, it kind of, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time, I'm sure there's, there's plenty of guys out there who maybe they can't afford that. And they're, you know, in their 20s. But I also prefer finding somebody who I'm going to be able to relate to, and now that I'm over 30, I'm finding it harder to relate to like a younger generation than myself. So

Nick VinZant 7:16

for you, is it? I guess, what's the appeal of it for you? Is it to being taken care of aspect of it? Like, is it a financial kind of transaction for you? Or do you find yourself like, no, the financial aspect is a benefit. But I do like this kind of relationship.

McKenna King 7:35

I think there's definitely a few reasons that drew me to it. Originally. I when I first started sugar dating, I was I was in my early to mid 20s. And I was still in school, I was living alone, because I refuse to live with roommates. At that point, I was like, John with that. And it was a means of supplementing my income and helping support myself like, it's nearly impossible as a single adult to live alone, and have like a comfortable place to live like the housing crisis, the afflict cost of living, it's all it's insane. So it seems like a good way. And a fun way of, you know, being able to just afford life in general. Like, I have no shame to anybody else, but I wasn't focused on gifts or luxury items or trips or travel or, you know, some of those benefits came along with it. But my goal was just you know, how can I make my life a little bit easier? How can I get through school with less stress not have to be working three jobs. So everybody has their own reasons I think for for seeking out a sugar daddy or or getting into that lifestyle. And I think what it comes down to typically is you just you want a better life for yourself.

Nick VinZant 9:08

I guess the ultimate kind of question right to just get right to it. Is it selling your soul in a way? Golf? No. That's I know that's the kind of the most dramatic way of possibly phrasing it. But I'll use this works. I can't think of another one like is it cheapening the experience degraded, degraded, dirty, any of those kinds of words?

McKenna King 9:31

I don't think it cheapens anything. I don't feel that it's degrading or I don't know how else to put it. I honestly believe that. It in every relationship there's going to be some type of transaction whether it is a very naturally formed relationship, you know, somebody that you met through friends or there's always going to be a good give and take, right. And I think the world has also kind of shifted to, you know, a lot of people don't want a traditional relationship, they, it's difficult to date and form relationships these days as well. And I think if you're a very busy person, that also impacts your ability to have the capacity to have relationships, you know, you can only give so much of yourself. So when you have the opportunity to have fun, be with somebody who you enjoy spending time with. Because I think these these relationships are still formed pretty naturally, you find somebody that you have a genuine connection with. So it's not just oh, my God, she's really hot. I mean, it could be but I think typically, these relationships are formed a little more naturally. And it's not just about having sex, or getting sex and paying for it, it's, you know, you find somebody that you want to have a good connection with. And you know, that you have the means to support that or support a certain lifestyle. So it's just, it's easier than maybe trying like regular online dating, and then going through months of, you know, sifting through profiles and, and autumn, maybe, you know, like, what if she shows up doesn't look like her pictures, and like that, that can still happen here, in a sense, but you both are looking for a very similar goal. And you're, I think, very more so upfront about it, about your lives, and what you're looking to attain out of this type of relationships. So instead of having to just find that needle in a haystack, it might be a little bit easier to try sugar dating, instead, you know, it might be a little more conducive to the lifestyle that you currently have,

Nick VinZant 11:59

it seems a little bit like a business transaction.

McKenna King 12:03

I guess I don't, I don't think you're reading into it in the wrong way. Because anytime we bring up like a transaction, then it sounds like it sounds like business, right? And the way I view sugar dating, I still see it under the umbrella of sex work in general. So I find it's a very, it's a more loosely brought together, arrangement or transaction, like, as opposed to where if you're like professional companion, you're like, straight up here. The rules, here is exactly what you're paying for my time, you're like, these are the boundaries of this transaction or this relationship. Whereas in sugar dating, it can be a little more loosely defined, there is more of a negotiation there. I know, most, most other sex workers. They're like, there's no negotiation, like, here's how it's going to be. But in sugar dating, I find it's more about finding what's going to work for both people. And there's a lot more discussion to it, there's a lot more there's a lot more give and take, you know, it's not. It's also not defined by like how much time you're setting aside to be with this person. And I think a lot of people will get upset because there's there's so much stigma that's attached to sex work, that they feel less stigmatized by going into sugar dating, because they're like, well, not a sex worker. But it's just wrapped up a little more nicely and presented to the public. As you know, here's, it's just, you know, it's dating. What's wrong with that, right? It's not, might be a little less conventional type of dating. But, uh, look, this nice old man just wants to take care of this pretty young girl and give her a better life. Right? It's more acceptable, it's more mainstream. And I think there's a lot less stigma attached to it

Nick VinZant 14:05

in the relationships that you've had. Was sex a requirement of it? Was that something that just naturally happened?

McKenna King 14:13

Um, I don't think I've ever seen a sex as a requirement, but it is typically involved in that kind of relationship. But like I said earlier, it depends on what both people are looking for what both people are comfortable with. Some people have sugar dating relationships that are purely virtual, like it's just online. There's, you know, maybe there's sexting but there's there's no actual physical contact, but for myself personally, anytime I meet a new guy who you know is like a prospective sugar daddy, then I let them know straight away like sex is off the table for the first couple of dates because I want to know Oh, if this person is a person is somebody that I'm going to have a good connection with? If it's going to be something that's ongoing. And I feel like if, if they want to, you know, test the goods, the first date, then it's just going to be right off the bat, like, No, this isn't gonna work for me. Because I want to build something that is going to be a little longer not commitment, but a longer lasting relationship for whatever time that that does last. But, you know, I've had I've had arrangements that lasted six months, I've had a couple years. It all depends, right? But do you feel a pressure? I can't say that there is now but maybe when I first got into sugar dating, there definitely was. But I think that's also because I approached it was a lot of naivety, like there's no I didn't have any knowledge, I didn't have an idea of what my own personal boundaries were, I thought that, okay, sugar dating, there is this expectation where there has to be sex, you know, he's giving me something, I have to give something back in return. And I didn't see my own value, as you know, just companionship, just being myself and seeing that another person can respect that, that time and that connection that we can build and having fun together going, you know, out for dinner, having activities traveling, I did pretty much boil it down to just a sexual thing, like this is that kind of transaction. But I think as you get a little older, and you understand a little bit more about what it can be, then no, it isn't, you don't feel as pressured. Because you're not also putting yourself in that situation where, you know, like, you've, you've set your own boundaries. And I think you can tell right off the bat to the type of people who they are looking for the really young and naive, maybe early college student, but like, barely legal, like, there. Unfortunately, that is part of it, too, you can tell there are older men that are specifically looking for young girls, who are going to be naive or easily manipulated or taken advantage of, unfortunately, but I think that happens everywhere in the world these days. So

Nick VinZant 17:34

I guess that would be the kind of concern necessarily, right, if you want to use that word is that somebody who is in a position of financial power is taking advantage of somebody that is not? Like, if you put a percentage on it? What percentage of sugar dating relationships would you think are more of a pine power dynamic kind of relationship than a mutual kind of transaction?

McKenna King 18:01

I'd say for the, for the women who are very, very young, like just going into college. I, I would hope that, you know, less of those arrangements are they're being you know, they're not being taken advantage of. But I think it's still it happens. It's, I don't know if I could put a number on it, to be honest, but I know it still happens. Because when I was much younger, there definitely were situations where I felt like okay, this, this guy really is trying to take advantage. You know, the expectations were up here for what they wanted. And the the sugar or the arrangement was being withheld. You know, like, they're gonna give you an allowance later on, but it never comes. So it's definitely a situation that happens, where, you know, younger women are entering into these arrangements thinking that right off the bat, they're going to be given something in return. And they're waiting and waiting and they're getting a lot of false promises. And a lot of people call that carrot dangling. You know, this, this guy is like, Hey, I got I got this, you know, I'm gonna provide something to you, but I'll just, you know, I'm busy. I'm on a call right now. I'll get you later.

Nick VinZant 19:27

For the men who are involved for the generally the person who has been financially providing, are they doing it? Because they like doing that, like what is the general attraction to it for them.

McKenna King 19:39

I would like to think like maybe altruistically that these guys are just they they want to help uplift somebody else's life. They like that aspect of taking care of another person or just setting up some more financial security for somebody who is just becoming established. in their career or going through college, or, you know, they can remember being at that point in their life remembering how much of a struggle it was. So maybe they get something out of it, you know, maybe it's fulfilling to them to know like, Yeah, I'm doing something that helps them genuinely. But I think there's just so many different reasons that that brings them into it. It's not always it's not always about everything that they can get out of it. There are some genuine people out there that they see it as, yeah, this is it's good for me, but it's also good for them.

Nick VinZant 20:33

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. How is this different from financial domination? Hmm,

McKenna King 20:42

um, that's a good one. I guess, primarily, it would depend on the arrangement. If if you are a domme, then you could find an a sugar dating arrangement where you do have a submissive and then it could be just about the like fin Dom, like financial domination. I think it's, it's, the people who are looking for fandom are seeking that out specifically. So the people who are typically drawn to sugar dating, it's, I mean, they're looking for their own type of arrangement, or, you know, you can't put a very specific label on on sugar dating, because there are so many different types of arrangements that you can, can have. But um, recently, I did, I met somebody on one of those sugar dating sites. And he was looking to be a submissive, not necessarily financial, submissive, but just a submissive in general. And he's like, he was interested in female lead relationships. So you know, the woman's calling all the shots, he is basically the beta in the relationship, you know, she takes whatever he's making and makes all the financial decisions. And, you know, he just, he's there to support the lifestyle that she wants. And for me that dynamic, I mean, I've entertained it, but I'm not super dominant. So I could play that role. I could put that roll on if I wanted to, but for me, it was just, it feels like more like work. So

Nick VinZant 22:29

what is it an allowance and what is the most and least allowance you've ever had or heard of,

McKenna King 22:34

um, so an allowance, that is basically just the financial compensation that that you're seeking out of an arrangement. Some people like to consider an allowance, anytime there's financial compensation, so it could be like her date. This is what the sugar daddies giving you for each time that you meet some arrangements, it'll be like a monthly allowance, or a weekly allowance, or whatever, you know, it can, it can just, it's whatever the compensation may be. Um, when I first started sugar dating, and was pretty naive and new to it. I think the lowest amount I was asking for a date was like $200. And I guess I can't really put a huge note, okay, if I put a number on, like the monthly allowance that I received, like at the high end, it would probably be about seven grand. Yes. But it was very, it was a lot more flexible. Also, I feel like I had my own credit card with my name on it that he provided me with so which I was I was pretty responsible with like, I didn't go any crazy shopping trips. Maybe in hindsight, I should have like, but uh, yeah, it was it was it was very flexible in terms of the financial amount that was provided. But yeah, that was an I know, there are other arrangements where like, their allowance might be 10 grand a month, 20 grand a month.

Nick VinZant 24:15

How do these relationships usually end? I think

McKenna King 24:19

people's life lifestyles just change, you know, they're my, my last arrangement ended because we almost got married. But in order for that to work, I would have had to emigrate to a different country. And I got cold feet. And there were already some, some problems within the relationship. So I know that's a very unique situation, but people's lives change. People grow apart. I feel like oftentimes it's maybe the sugar baby who ends up ending things because As maybe they're done school, you know, they don't need that kind of financial support anymore. And maybe they just want a more traditional relationship, they want to be able to have a partner that they can actually introduce to their family, you know, without any judgment or stigma, I guess

Nick VinZant 25:18

that would be the thing, right? Like in the relationships that you've had, like, have you been introduced to the family?

McKenna King 25:23

So I mean, this is kind of funny, because I've jokingly called myself a failed sugar baby in the past. Because I've had, I've had three separate arrangements that shifted into more of a traditional relationship. And so those individuals, like they met my family, they I was in more involved in their life, you know, we didn't have to be discreet in public or discreet between our own like family and friend groups. And I could go to a work events with one I, you know, it I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with the fact that if it is still an arrangement, then seeing if, if both parties are comfortable being more open about it and sharing more of their lives with each other, that's fine. It depends on the people, right? If they're not worried about facing any, any sort of judgment from other people, either.

Nick VinZant 26:27

How have you? How have kind of people close to you, how have they generally reacted to it?

McKenna King 26:31

Um, I mean, when, when I first started, I didn't tell anybody, I wasn't really in the, the mindset of like, being open about that aspect of my life. And I was worried that I would face some judgment from others, or like, weird looks on the street, or, you know, disappointing my parents or something like that, you know. But as I got a little bit older, and then as I also got into sex work, like professionally, I started to be a lot more open, because I felt like I was living two lives, and I didn't want to have to hide certain aspects of my life, from the people that I cared about. And it wasn't an easy conversation. I don't think it's ever going to be an easy conversation, because you're, you're coming from a place where there is all of these societal expectations and perceptions and stigma and judgment. So yeah, I, I just decided to live a little bit more openly, because that's what worked for me.

Nick VinZant 27:47

This may be getting like into the crossing the line into kind of territory, that would be the thing, right, like, because I'm a father. And I don't know, I don't know how I would react if like, Who's Coming to Dinner? You. Okay, what? I would have, I would have questions. I guess, do you felt like you experienced that kind of thing.

McKenna King 28:10

It was a little strange. With my, my last arrangement, like and, and I consider this my last one because it was the last longterm one. But this was the guy who lived in the US who I was, I was dating for a while. And it turned into more of a serious relationship. So he did meet my family, he did. You know, like, because we were turned into that traditional relationship, he wanted to meet my family, and I wanted them to know, like, Okay, this is who I'm with. And I wanted to be honest about like, how we met and how it started. And so it was definitely a tricky conversation at first, he definitely understood where I was coming from, and the motivations that I had that led me to this point. Because we were always a very poor family, you know, he provided the best he could for for all of us kids, but I think he understood that coming from there and then going into either sugar dating or sex work, it had opened up doors for me and opportunities for me that he was never able to do. So his primary concern was, Are you safe? And are you being treated well, and you know, so long as those two things are happening and you're happy and you're consenting and you're doing something that you're okay with, then I'm okay with

Nick VinZant 29:44

this one just says main or side and so I guess what they mean by that is like, in these kinds of relationships is is is are you generally kind of like no, this is the only person that they have, or do they usually have like multiple people?

McKenna King 29:58

It depends on the person I've been in arrangements where I knew that they were married, or they had a long term relationship already. And then I've also been in arrangements where I was under the belief that I was the only sugar baby. Or the only other person like that, you know, they're having a relationship with and that sense, but um, I, honestly, it's it's just kind of like dating in the real world, you know, you you don't always know if this other person is seeing other people.

Nick VinZant 30:36

Are these kinds of relationship? Where do you think this kind of stance is becoming more popular, less popular?

McKenna King 30:42

I don't know, if it's becoming more popular. I think it's becoming more discussed. It's because it's in the media. And because we have access to so much online and there's all these, you know, different websites that can connect people for specifically sugar dating, that maybe it has become a little more popularized. But I think also, society is shifting a little bit where we're more, a little more accepting of different types of relationships that might seem untraditional,

Nick VinZant 31:18

you think you'll keep doing?

McKenna King 31:21

Um, while it works for me, I guess I find that as opposed to, like professional companionship. So the majority of what I do right now, as a sex worker, sugar dating has become a little more time consuming and a little more complicated to find the right type of arrangement. I've still I've met, you know, I've had a few coffee dates with people, I just haven't found the right like fit. You know, I, if I'm looking for a sugar dating relationship, then I want it to not feel like work as opposed to the way sex work can feel like work. What

Nick VinZant 32:05

advice would you give to somebody who's thinking about doing this?

McKenna King 32:09

Um, I think the best piece of advice I can give to anybody who is thinking about sugar dating is just know, know, your worth. Know, your boundaries. And I think that's the hardest thing for anybody to learn in any aspect of life is just what you want for yourself and the boundaries you want to set for yourself. And don't let anybody take advantage of you. I know that my that's probably a shithead by advice, because I had to learn the hard way. There's no guidebook to being a sugar baby, try to try to find some valuable information from people who have been involved in the lifestyle, but just know know what you want for yourself and what's gonna work best for you. And, and yeah, that's about it.

Nick VinZant 33:05

So what would you say like kind of the what is the life, like, because what I'm imagining it as being is like, alright, we'll go into dinner, go into a nice dinner, we're gonna go to show we're gonna go on trips. And then at the end of the night, we're gonna have sex,

McKenna King 33:21

it can be, that's the, that's the fun part of it. Because it really can be whatever you make it and whatever you want out of it. If you find a really good relationship with a guy who likes to travel, who loves fine dining, who, you know, enjoys all of these experiences and wants to take you along for that, then you can find that but if you're a little more conservative like me, I'm I'm more focused on building financial security, saving money. I don't really care about luxury items. If somebody gifts me, like a luxury bag, I'm probably going to sell it and put that in my TFSA or RRSPs. So it for me that experience has been a little bit different because it's it's more about just creating a sustainable life for myself. Travel has been part of it. When I was dating the guy in Chicago, we, we went to while I'd go back and forth to Chicago every month from Ottawa, so I'd stay with him for about a week. And then I'd go back home and then I go back and did that monthly. But we you know, travel to other places. San Diego was fun got to go to San Diego Zoo. Still haven't been to Europe. So if there are any sugar daddies that want to take me to Europe, I mean, shameless plug right here. But yeah, that that kind of those benefits can be part of it. It's really it's, you make what you want out of it, and hopefully, you have the arrangement But you want but it's it can also be like a normal relationship to where it takes takes a bit of work, you know, and it takes a bit of coordination and, and finding the right person. So

Nick VinZant 35:12

what are the dating sites? Like? Because what I'm imagining is like they put their income on there or something.

McKenna King 35:18

Some of them need to do some, I think they're allowed to, like, hide it if they don't want to display it. But I find that kind of annoying.

Nick VinZant 35:27

Do you verify like, oh, wait, this guy says he's worth 10 million, but I need to see some tax returns.

McKenna King 35:33

See, that is? God that that opens a whole other little can of worms if we have time. But there's, it's very hard to verify these people, because most of the profiles are just like your regular your dating site, they might have a username, but you can't just look this person up on Google and be like, oh, yeah, he is the CEO of whatever. And whatever. You know, you're, I think this is also part of what makes sugar dating a little more risky. Because you're just going off of the information they've decided to share with you. So, for example, I started seeing somebody, it evolved into a traditional relationship, but from the get go, I met him under a certain name. And I thought I knew who he was as a person, I introduced him to my family as this is so and so. And four years later, down the road, thanks to Facebook, by the way, women have these these groups about like, Are we dating the same guy, for whatever reason I was on this group, and I saw a photo come up, and it's him standing next to another lady. And, but a different name, a completely different name. And that's when it sunk in. I was like, he was married the whole time, I really knew nothing about him. He had this whole other life that I knew nothing about. And how was I supposed to verify that, like, there were some red flags early on that that came up. And certain things kind of clued in. And I think that's really, because there was no trust and no honesty in that relationship. That's why that relationship started to unravel. But I had no idea who he was until after the fact. And called them out on it, which felt really good. But

Nick VinZant 37:35

like that, can that can happen in any relationship? Right?

McKenna King 37:39

Like, yeah, we catfishes. Now, we, you know, you never really know someone completely. But I think this is this is what I mean by sugar dating can be a little more risky than as opposed to sex work, because, well, I think it's all under the same umbrella as sex work. But compared to being a professional companion, you're doing screening on all your clients, typically. So usually, they have to verify, you know, either with photo ID references, like this is who I am. To just allow them into your space to for allow them to come see you. And with sugar dating, there's not really that same aspect to it, at least not the experience that I've had, where, you know, people are verifying who they're actually meeting. And I think this is also how it allows more men who are trying to take advantage or, you know, maybe they didn't have screening for a companion. They're like, Okay, well, I can just go find a really naive 20 year old sugar baby and pay her phone bill and then I get what I want.

Nick VinZant 38:52

That's pretty much all the questions that we got, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, wants to learn more, that kind of stuff. What should they do?

McKenna King 38:59

I think the easiest way is following me on Twitter, my main Twitter accounts your McKenna. You can find me and my website at only mckenna.com. And, um, my Tiktok, also only McKenna.

Nick VinZant 39:18

I want to thank McKenna so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And the YouTube version of this interview will be live on November 2 at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Is there anything you wouldn't do for money?

John Shull 39:45

I already know that. Well,

Nick VinZant 39:47

I think that I wouldn't cross over any sexual lines. Like I'm a heterosexual man. I don't think that I would cross over into the other realm. Even for a lot of money. I don't think that I would do that.

John Shull 39:59

It's cool. If that's how you roll, don't take this the wrong way. But yeah, I don't. I don't think I would cross any lines either. What if

Nick VinZant 40:06

it was $10 billion, though like, man? If but that's the thing, though runs to try. I think it's easy to say that you would not. But if it was put in front of you, you got 10 billion cash sitting right there. I'm pretty sure I would do a lot of stuff. I wouldn't have thought that I would do.

John Shull 40:23

Yeah, I mean, I guess if someone is, if it's a reality, I mean, that's probably going to change most people's minds.

Nick VinZant 40:31

What do you still consider to be a lot of money?

John Shull 40:34

I mean, I'm probably about 500 grand.

Nick VinZant 40:38

Oh, I was gonna say like, $10, I still considered $10 to be a pretty good amount of money.

John Shull 40:45

I mean, I don't know. I think if you have, if you have any cash on you at all, I think that's a valid question. Do people even still carry cash?

Nick VinZant 40:52

I do. I have some cash. But it's more of like a coincidental thing that I have some cash. I don't purposely do it.

John Shull 41:01

I usually take out money every paycheck Friday just to have it. You know, case, I'm in a restaurant and I just want to tip with cash or, you know, the vending machine at work, you gotta get those Butterfingers you take money

Nick VinZant 41:13

out of your paycheck in cash. Like, how much money out of your paycheck in cash?

John Shull 41:20

It varies, but between 50 and $100 Oh, okay.

Nick VinZant 41:24

I thought you were gonna say something ridiculous. Like you took out 1000 Or you took out five bucks. It's like, what's the point? And that's way too much. That's a reasonable amount. Okay,

John Shull 41:35

I got I got bills to pay, man, I can't be taken out a lot of money.

Nick VinZant 41:39

Um, another question that I wanted to ask you is would you eat food out of your own trash?

John Shull 41:45

Depends where it is in the trash and how long it's been in there. If it's on the top, like, I just threw it away, you know, and I want to go back and just finish it off. Okay. If it's something like say, you know, right now I'm talking to you and I go, man, I I want to go get the rest of that, you know, egg sandwich from this morning out of the trash. That's not happening.

Nick VinZant 42:07

No, I could wait as much as a minute and still eat food out of my own trash.

John Shull 42:13

How long? Say a piece of food or something that's on the floor. How long is a suitable time for you to pick it up and eat it still?

Nick VinZant 42:22

If it's on the floor at my house? Oh, like an hour. I would honestly have food just fell on the floor at my own house. before it went rotten. Like if I drop a chip on my floor at 1pm and I come back at 7pm and it's still there. I'm probably going to eat it. I don't really have a time limit for any food that is non perishable. On my own floor. If we're talking about like outside 1520 seconds. Okay, all right. I don't have a problem with it. How like how quickly would you eat it?

John Shull 43:01

I mean, I'll eat it anywhere. Really restaurant grocery store. The only place that I would that I actually get I don't want to say the creepy GPS but the only place where I'm like, Man, I'm not I don't want to touch this floor is a public restroom bath like bathroom floor.

Nick VinZant 43:17

But she will go bare cheeks in there, which we've discussed before. I

John Shull 43:20

will. I will go bare cheeks all day long in there. It's disgusting. Okay. All right. Let's give some shout outs here. We'll start with Regan Shattuck. Julie Amber, two first names. Andres Mendoza. Khalil Harb, Ariel Thomas, Gabe, Christian, Rebecca Roboto. Say that four times fast. Michael Lindsey Brady Clark, and a Makina validez

Nick VinZant 43:54

very It's amazing for people who only listen to this show. It's amazing to watch John. It's like it's just amazing. The level of focus.

John Shull 44:04

I'm in it I'm, you know, I'm in it. I gotta make sure I don't screw things up. Because you know, y'all out there who comment on our social media you're kind of ruthless. So I gotta I gotta make sure I get this right.

Nick VinZant 44:15

As it should be. I think that there's needs to be more ruthlessness in the world, right? People are to us to get away with their own crap too much.

John Shull 44:23

Let's get your thoughts. Get your opinions on a couple of things here. One out of all of these 90s trends, clothing trends that apparently are researching which one to you? Is the one that you'd want to keep around? graphic tees, flannel shirts, or baggy jeans.

Nick VinZant 44:48

I don't mind all of those unlimited qualities to be honest with you. But a graphic shirt is what it's just got a design on it.

John Shull 44:55

No, it's like, you know, it's the like the big You like the big picture takes up most of the shirt? It's you know, it's just it's a graphics

Nick VinZant 45:05

went away

John Shull 45:08

I mean, I think so.

Nick VinZant 45:10

I don't even know anything about style, like baggy pants like comfortable clothing like comfortable baggy or just giant baggy and ridiculous, like jinko level.

John Shull 45:20

Oh man, I you know I used to have a pair two Jenko jeans. My mother who bought them for me i I'll never forget this as I'm walking out of the house with my eyeliner on. And my dyed hair

Nick VinZant 45:31

really have Did you really have eyeliner and dyed hair?

John Shull 45:35

I mean, yes, on the eyeliner, the hair was a hairspray dye. I don't know if you remember that. But you can literally buy hair dye but like in an aerosol can. So you would just spray it. And it would change. You know, obviously people bought it for the different colors. But you know, I will get black so I could have jet black hair because I brown hair for those of you that that have never seen a video of us. So yeah, so I would spray it in the morning before school, put my eyeliner on, put on my Powerman 5000 t shirt, my vans and my Jenko jeans and head off to sixth grade.

Nick VinZant 46:11

In sixth grade. You were wearing eyeliner, I feel like that's aggressive.

John Shull 46:15

Well, I mean, you know, I was a sixth grader in the late night. Well, mid to late 90s. And that's when you know, that's Marilyn Manson's the Powerman 5000s. The you know, lip biscuits core and all that, you know, it's it's all good.

Nick VinZant 46:31

Okay, do you regret that? Or were you like, alright, I did that. How do you feel about like lifestyle choices where you're embarrassed later?

John Shull 46:39

Well, I always seem to dabble in things. fashion wise, and it never turns out well for me, because for one, my body type is not suitable for anything fashionable. I'm just I'm way too big of a man. You know, I mean, the last one, right was skinny jeans. Yeah, a decade ago. And I first off, I don't know how I got into them. Because even you know, 4050 pounds skinnier than or whatever I was. Skinny jeans are not made for a man that's you know, 511 240 pounds. They're just not.

Nick VinZant 47:14

I've never been like a trendy person in style. I've always generally had the same kind of like just boring clothing. I just wear like clothes.

John Shull 47:25

I mean, I've I will like I said, I've always kind of dipped my toes in. When Jordans came out. Or when they got really mega popular in the mid 90s. I had a couple of pair of those which, you know, were insanely expensive. Griffeys you know, for all of you 90s kids out there Griffeys were big. You know, I? This is embarrassing, but probably out of everything I've ever tried to be fashionable about the FUBU and rock aware days were probably my my worst decisions just because yeah, did you put a big guy in a giant puffy jacket? And these big boots, I just it didn't look natural. So

Nick VinZant 48:08

why did you try all these travel trends? Are they all these different trends out? Like were you trying to find yourself? Or were you trying to fit in?

John Shull 48:16

Probably trying to fit in, but you know, kind of it kind of almost plays along, oddly enough to what you asked at the beginning of the segment. And like, what would I do for a million dollars? Well, I didn't get paid to do this. But I'm always up to try things like I'm always I've always been up to be a good sport, in see things and that's how I kind of view all these moments of my life.

Nick VinZant 48:38

I would agree with everything but the eyeliner. Like that's taken it a step too far.

John Shull 48:43

Anyways, my next question is, have you ever been asleep? Walker?

Nick VinZant 48:48

No, I've never slept walk have you?

John Shull 48:51

I have a few times in my life more when I was a young younger person, but I have done it, you know, as an adult. But the question is pretty simple. It just could. And I've never been with anybody or lived with anyone that has been but I was reading an article the other day not sure if it's true or not. But I'm pretty sure the most terrifying thing would be to wake up to a some kind of noise coming from somewhere in your house. You go to investigate that and someone's just standing there with a blank stare on their faces opening the you know the door or just banging your pan up and down. And it's it's terrifying. So I want to know, if you've ever been in that situation, and if you were in that situation, theoretically, what would you do? Would you try to snap them out of it? Would you just tackle that person to the ground because they're possessed by a demon? What would you

Nick VinZant 49:44

Oh, I mean, probably something if they're in my house, like I'm probably gonna do something and start with violence. I mean, that's just the way that it is right? Like, I'm not going to be sitting there wasting around time, like figuring out like, Oh no, this person just happens to be slow. Keep walking, like No, it's good to start the other way. My wife had an experience. Well, I guess we both had an experience. She was college, seven or eight months pregnant with our second child. And there was a woman that was on some kind of something that had like wandered into the backyard. And she was sitting there, but my wife was doing dishes at the sink, which looked out into the backyard. And this woman's face just pops up directly in front of her in the backyard. Oh, and so she yells, I don't know what's going on. But I run outside and on the way I grab a knife, like, here we go, it's time to go. So I mean, that's not gonna like, you got to do what you got to do. I'm not going to be asking a lot of questions. I don't think.

John Shull 50:50

I mean, I feel like I know the answer to this, but I presume you did not have to use the knife.

Nick VinZant 50:55

I didn't I once I got out there. And I figured out like, oh, this woman is clearly like off her mind. Just got her out of there. It's like you're in the wrong place. You gotta go now. And she left. But

John Shull 51:09

well, and now now that we're officially in November. I have to ask this question. I feel like it's an annual question until I get a good answer out of you. Falling back, springing forward daylight savings time. Is it a waste of time? Do you appreciate it? Did you even know that come this Saturday, we are supposed to fall back an hour.

Nick VinZant 51:29

I knew that because I knew it's always around Halloween. That's the only reason that I know that. Otherwise, I don't care. I don't understand why we do it. It's one of those things that we should probably just stop doing. But we're not going to stop doing it instead. We'll just continue on perpetuity.

John Shull 51:47

All right, well, do you know what time it is?

Nick VinZant 51:50

Is that a good segue into your candle them on? Watch bumper to bumper to bumper to bumper to bumper? Okay, wait hold on. Sometimes they can do it sometimes I can't hold on

it's time candle of the month the outlaw candle connoisseur brides again?

John Shull 52:16

Well, Nick,

Nick VinZant 52:18

here we say whale or Well,

John Shull 52:20

I said a whale Nick. Here we are.

Nick VinZant 52:25

I'm trash. Tons of things are just terrible.

John Shull 52:27

I'm trying to be Alright, anyways. Um, so here we go. Head over, you can either go to Amazon, pick this candle up, you can head over to the P F Candle Company, our candle store. Kind of an interesting backstory in this candle. So I didn't realize this. This was given given to us as a wedding gift. Seven years ago. Just found it this summer, just happened to be moving some stuff into my newly furnished basement and found this candle asked my wife and she said got it from the wedding. It was a wedding gift from somebody lit it up maybe two weeks ago. And I burned it all the way through. That's how fantastic it was. So by PF Candle Company, it's called the number 28. Black fig candle. And it is it is delicious. It is soothing. It is I don't know how to accurately describe it other than you light it, it's seven ounces. So not too big, but you get a very woody. Like it starts kind of woody like you're out in the forest. Like you're taking a nice walk in crisp weather. And then it finishes strong with that fig. Essence and it's just very awesome. It is kind of pricey. It's about it's gonna read seven ounces, which is not a lot. I mean, you're gonna get probably 12 to 20 hours runtime on that. It's going to cost you about 25 bucks, but it is worth it. And it's a good candle. And yeah, it's I wanted something that's that kind of signifies fall, and I did not expect this candle to do that at all. So I was very pleasantly surprised.

Nick VinZant 54:16

I don't even know like fig has a certain people like the smell and feel of figs

John Shull 54:26

I mean, I have no idea maybe they do. Maybe they don't. I like figs myself. But this isn't. This isn't like the you're not gonna get a sweet, savory, like feeling from this candle. It's almost gonna be like you're walking in the woods on a crisp, cold autumn day. And then as it's wrapping up is when you're going to get more of like the inside in front of the fire. Maybe you got a little wall refresher in and you get a little bit of that sweetness and then it burns out and you're like I need like, what just happened? 15 hours went by so fast.

Nick VinZant 55:05

Do you have a candle burning in your house? In every room in your house?

John Shull 55:12

I mean, pretty close. I mean, not to actually go through it. But I mean, every bathroom. The kitchen, the dining room, the living room. All three bedrooms, the basement. Yeah, so I mean, pretty close.

Nick VinZant 55:24

At the same time. Not always.

John Shull 55:27

No, not not all at the same time. But I mean, on any given Sunday, right? Great movie, by the way, on any given day, maybe three to five at at the same time.

Nick VinZant 55:39

So can you ever smell then if something is like wrong in the house? Are you just covering up odors all the time? Like the floorboards could be rotting? There could be a dead rat under that, but you've got 18 candles burning? Do you even know?

John Shull 55:51

It's it's become something now to where? Oh, I? Well, not now. It's, I mean, for the last five, six years, I enjoy going from room to room and having the different aromas.

Nick VinZant 56:09

Just walking around? Yeah, ah,

John Shull 56:13

it's, it's, you know, it's great. And, you know, we have an insert fireplace. And for any of you out there that may have one or just a fireplace in general in your home. I didn't realize this, but they actually sell. Like, they sell wood that can be scented. I didn't know that. But they offer for inserts, they have like plugins that you can plug into your insert, and you can turn on the blower and it will blow out like you know, you know, like firewood or something.

Nick VinZant 56:46

Okay, so our top five is top five best traits for people to have.

John Shull 56:51

Now I have to ask you is are when you say traits? You mean like intellectual things?

Nick VinZant 56:58

Rationality? personality characteristics? Yes. Not like five personality characteristics?

John Shull 57:04

Not like nice eyes or tight but or something but like personality? And

Nick VinZant 57:08

then how about after you give your trait? Give yourself a rating on a scale of one to 10 where you think you personally fit in that?

John Shull 57:18

Okay, all right. Well, this is gonna be this should be interesting. So my number five. For traits. I have self awareness as my number five.

Nick VinZant 57:27

Oh, that's a good one. And self awareness is a good one. Yeah, I will

John Shull 57:31

give myself up up until maybe a year or two ago, I would have given myself a four.

Nick VinZant 57:40

Oh, yeah, you're not a self aware person.

John Shull 57:43

I've gotten a lot better. I think I would say I'm at a seven now. You know, I still will do things for fun. And maybe I don't realize certain things. But there definitely was a point in time to where I was not self aware at all, and not like to self aware. I would just stay saying do things and make others around me feel uncomfortable. That was included. But I just I didn't never pay attention to my surroundings. And it just wasn't a good thing.

Nick VinZant 58:14

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I don't know if you were a four, I would say that you were probably a little bit higher. Maybe five or six. But yeah,

John Shull 58:25

just a one rung higher. But it's all good. No big deal, right?

Nick VinZant 58:29

My number five is being on time. Because I think that punctuality says a lot about somebody shows that they have respect for their time and respect for your time, which I think goes a long, long way. And they're organized generally.

John Shull 58:44

So what are you writing yourself?

Nick VinZant 58:47

Probably a seven. I'm generally on time but I'm not always prepared.

John Shull 58:54

So preparation in addition to being punctual is goes together. You're saying

Nick VinZant 59:00

yeah, but I also believe that preparation in a lot of circumstances is kind of overrated because whatever plan that you had is ultimately just going to fall apart and then you're going to have to pick the pieces up from that so why have a plan in the first place is kind of the way that I look at it. I generally take everything with like let's see what happens.

John Shull 59:18

You do you're definitely like a pessimistic optimistic person. I don't even know what the term is for that but

Nick VinZant 59:27

oh, I think that I generally believe that bad things are going to happen and that whatever plan that people have in place is going to fail but I'm usually not too worried about it like it was do something else and adapt

John Shull 59:39

that just so people know that is actually you that is not you fabricating anything alright my speaking of kind of along the same line, my number four is up optimism.

Nick VinZant 59:52

Yeah, I don't know if I would put it on my list but being like you don't like to be around negative people a lot

John Shull 59:59

cannot you know not handling negative people too much as we all know, way too much negativity in the world right now and hate and other things. I probably actually could have put this in my top two, but it'll sit at number four, I think that's a good spot for and I'll say, I'm like an eight and a half. I'm a very optimistic person I am. I don't want to say I'm happy go lucky. But I definitely always try to see the other side of things and be optimistic try to work through problems like, never really been a negative person that I can think of on a regular basis.

Nick VinZant 1:00:34

I would agree with that. My number four is aggressiveness. I don't think that you want to be too aggressive. But I think that being a little bit aggressive or pushing for the things that you want, going after things, I think that's a really good quality. I don't like it when people are the opposite of just kind of waiting for stuff to happen. So I think aggressiveness to a good degree is a really good quality. Maybe maybe a seven, I think I might be a seven. Okay, but I could go if somebody was to say no, and say that I was two points higher or two points lower, I probably would not disagree with them in either of those assessments.

John Shull 1:01:16

Okay, um, I'll agree with your seven. I mean, you're I mean, you've never not ever gotten what you've gone after. And you've always pushed yourself to be better. So

Nick VinZant 1:01:29

I'll give you a pep talk. That's a pep talk. Alright, what's your number three?

John Shull 1:01:34

Would you message me the other day rocky speech, man speech. So my number three, I could put so many on here. It's it was hard for me to come up with a real like confident list. So my number three, I'm just gonna say you have to be generous. You have to be kind.

Nick VinZant 1:01:51

Okay. All right.

John Shull 1:01:55

You know, and? Well, I mean, I think it's important. And I also think that it's that's part of getting through life is treating others well. But regardless, so all of that and saying that I would say I'm probably like a nine, I'm a really good person. I treat people well. I'm generous, I'm kind. You know, I have a saying treat people like people. And I mean, worked out. So so far.

Nick VinZant 1:02:21

Okay. I don't know if we've reached the age where we can say I have a saying. Yeah. But if I do have a saying I usually attribute it to something that my grandpa said, actually was something that I say.

John Shull 1:02:34

That's what yeah, oh, I got it from you. So thank you.

Nick VinZant 1:02:38

That's the best way to do it. Because you can't like you can't say anything brilliant. You have to pretend like somebody else told you it. That way people will listen to you. Ah, my number three is a sense of humor. And I would say I might be like a nine or a 10 in that. No,

John Shull 1:02:57

you're not funny. Oh, I'm

Nick VinZant 1:02:59

not saying that. I'm funny. But I look at like the funny side of life, that everything about life is ultimately kind of funny.

John Shull 1:03:07

Yeah, I'll get back to that, actually. Because, because I will. My number two in this is probably the most important one on my list. But you got to be honest, you got to have honesty. And to be honest, you could probably put honesty integrity as the same thing for me. I'm a 10. I don't I mean, people will tell you that and you know, this, the i embellish. I am not a liar. I'm honest. I'm pretty black and white when I actually have to be. So yeah, I mean, I give myself a 10 100% on this one.

Nick VinZant 1:03:42

It is hard to hear you say I embellish. And then say I'm a 10 and honesty directly after it. But I do kind of know what you mean, right? I don't know your mind. It's true.

John Shull 1:03:53

I don't know what the dictionary says the actual definition of embellishment is, but to me, it's adding vivid details to a story. That may not be true. But the person knows that they are not true. It's not like telling a flat out lie. Which is quite different. Right? So

Nick VinZant 1:04:13

the person that you're telling, has to know that they're not quite true. Yeah, like Sam telling. You have to know that they're not quite like

John Shull 1:04:20

Sam telling you a story. And so like, oh, yeah, I remember that time 10 years ago, and you and I got wasted and you know, you ended up throwing up over the side of your balcony and you threw up on four people and yada yada yada. You're like, I don't think that ever happened, man. I'm like, Yeah, I probably did. And but it's a good good part of the

Nick VinZant 1:04:37

good enough story, right? That's what I Yeah. Yeah, I have my that's my number two two is like trust and I would also agree that even though I haven't number two, trust is probably the most important thing. Essentially our entire society, both our personal relationships and our societal relationships revolve around trust. Without that the whole thing breaks down. Well, right Yeah, it's such a problem now.

John Shull 1:05:02

It's, it's definitely, you know, getting there. Alright, my number one, and I think this is the most important interpersonal skill that you should have. And that's having some humility. Hmm, being able to not take yourself seriously, all the time, I also think it's important to be able to laugh at yourself in a healthy way. And you know, once again, just not not be afraid to maybe make somebody else laugh. As long as it's healthy and you know, not damaging to your, your inner self.

Nick VinZant 1:05:40

Where do you feel like you're at in humility,

John Shull 1:05:44

nine and eight and nine, I mean, I've, I'm on this podcast, if anyone wants to scroll back to any other episode, I'm sure there's a especially in the beginning, when you were just throwing daggers at me. Um, you know, humility is very, it's very important. And I think it's a it's a good trait to possess.

Nick VinZant 1:06:04

I would agree with that. My number one, though, is being a good listener. I think that's the most important and the best trait for somebody to have, not just to listen to what you're saying, but actually to like, kind of understand where somebody is coming from. I think that if you can genuinely put yourself in somebody else's shoes, you can understand most of the things that people do.

John Shull 1:06:24

Yeah, that's all my honorable mention. I mean, listening is it's one of the most important things to do. Just not sure that's necessarily a trait like, listening to me is a skill. It's something that you learn, it's something that you have to apply is where I feel like a trend, I'm probably wrong in this, I feel like a trait is something that you're kind of already born with. And you either choose to possess it or not, as we're

Nick VinZant 1:06:55

I think personnel I think that listening though comes from like caring about what that person has to say. I think that if you're not listening to somebody, then you're ultimately saying, Well, I don't really care what you have to say, I don't care about the things that are happening to you. So I think that listening is related to like empathy, or being a kind person really,

John Shull 1:07:14

do you think what what where do you think you rate on the listening skill? What do you say? See how many times I've been telling a story on here? And you're like, I stopped listening?

Nick VinZant 1:07:27

No, no, no, no, I was listening. I just decided I didn't care see different I heard what you were saying I decided I didn't care or was interested by see. That's that's the same thing like I but I was listening enough to know that I was done with this. Let's see a seven or an eight, a kind listener

John Shull 1:07:45

would have let me completed it, edited it out and still made me feel like it was important enough for them to listen to instead of cutting me off.

Nick VinZant 1:07:54

But a slightly aggressive person, which I also think is a good characteristic to have would cut you off and say like, Look, I'm not paying attention to this. Like you need to wrap this story up. The only thing in your honorable mention that really stands out.

John Shull 1:08:09

I mean, I just mentioned that patience. Patience isn't isn't

Nick VinZant 1:08:14

Oh, yeah, it's a virtue.

John Shull 1:08:18

13 commandments, right, or something like that? Anyways, um, I also have confidence and ambitiousness I think those are, you know, confidence is important. And sometimes I feel like all you have to do is be a confident person. And you don't have to have any skill at anything. And you'll be successful.

Nick VinZant 1:08:36

I would put kindness on that list. But I think that kindness kind of gets wrapped up into a lot of these other things. Like if you're honest with people, if you're a good listener, if you're on time, if you have a sense of humor that you probably are pretty kind, so I don't think that you need to have that stand out on its own.

John Shull 1:08:53

One thing's for sure. big titties. Big old Dong. Oh, and we're done.

Nick VinZant 1:09:04

Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the best personality traits. I think it would be really hard to be trustworthiness and sense of humor. But if there's something else that you think no, no, no, this is the best personality trait. Let us know

Monster Scholar Dr. Emily Zarka

Vampires, Werewolves, Zombies, Manananggals, Monster Scholar Dr. Emily Zarka studies them all. We talk monster origins, how monster stories have influenced society and which monsters might be real. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Halloween Candies to Get.

Dr. Emily Zarka: 01:14

Pointless: 23:30

Top 5 Worst Candies: 38:26

Contact the Show

Dr. Emily Zarka's Website

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Interview with Monster Expert Dr. Emily Zarka

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode monsters, and bad candy,

Dr. Emily Zarka 0:21

I think we're all scared of something. And I think that trying to recognize why we're afraid of what we're afraid of tells us more about one another. Because that's an example of where belief in a particular monster, like a werewolf, or where hyena did actually lead to real human deaths. The zombie is very much I hate to say alive, but alive and well in those spiritual traditions. And that that is still something that happens to this day.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies monsters. This is Monster scholar, Dr. Emily Zarqa. What do you think captivates us about monsters?

Dr. Emily Zarka 1:17

I think that monsters are all about storytelling. I think that we do storytelling for entertainment purposes, but also to educate one another and to build community. So for me scary stories at their root are about the power of imagination and a desire to share information. I think we're all scared of something. And I think that trying to recognize why we're afraid of what we're afraid of tells us more about one another. Sometimes these connections, unfortunately, can lead to some pretty real and terrifying results like discrimination or even death. And I think that's because monsters provide convenient scapegoats a lot of the time for negative human behavior. And I mean that not just because not just the people who are being accused of being monsters or monstrous, but people making that those accusations, I like to say a lot of the time, the monster is more about the person pointing the finger at the monster and calling them evil or bad than it is about the monster itself.

Nick VinZant 2:15

Did people ever think that any of these are real?

Dr. Emily Zarka 2:19

Absolutely. There are monsters out there that some people still believe are real, you could get into a whole conversation about cryptids. But historically, when vcare so collections of illustrations and like short descriptions of different kinds of creatures across the world, we would see in those volumes, stuff we would recognize today, like horses and cows. And then we'd also see some things that today we know to maybe not be true, like dragons, or even the bass Liske. So there was a large period of human history, I would say that people thought a lot of these monsters were real. And part of that wasn't just because they were there's a stereotype those people were like, uneducated, in some capacity. And I think that that's doing them a disservice. I think that the world was a lot smaller, before more people could communicate at the speed in which we could communicate. So when you don't have this rapid sharing of information, and you hear a story from someone across the world that like a crack and sunk their ship, it seems believable enough, like maybe you see peace, the survivors telling you that, who's to say that you shouldn't believe them.

Nick VinZant 3:23

When you talk about like monsters, right? Like who are kind of the big ones, the ones that really stand out to you.

Dr. Emily Zarka 3:30

The ones that stood out to me just because they're one of my personal favorites are the undead of any kind. I like to say that in every culture that fairies, they're dead, there are some kind of reanimated corpse monster, I think because of course, what happens after death is a mystery. And that we like to again, fill in the blanks of our imagination and try to make sense of the world around us by telling stories and monsters are part of that story. So vampires would be the obvious example. But I'm also really intrigued by where people so where tigers were hyenas werewolves, not only because of how ubiquitous they are across the globe, because that's an example of where belief in a particular monster, like a werewolf, or where hyena did actually lead to real human deaths, which is tragic and interesting in a lot of ways. And I like to think that by studying those stories, and those, you know, real werewolf trials, for instance, that we can hopefully become better people by trying to avoid those same mistakes in the future

Nick VinZant 4:29

when you look at kind of the monsters that have existed and I think of like vampires, Frankenstein, the mummy, etc, etc. Is there one, one or ones that kind of stand out to us, like people have had kind of the harshest, real life reaction to this,

Dr. Emily Zarka 4:43

I think werewolves again, and where people accusations and witchcraft accusations and places they're still today in the world where those accusations of malevolent sorcery can lead to like imprisonment or death, which is terrifying. So famously in the 16th and 17th centuries in your are up, there's what scholars like to call the werewolf trials, where various real individuals were being accused of shape shifting into vaults. And they were actually put on trial for that. And you might hear these hugely exaggerated numbers of you know, 10s of 1000s of people that happened to and that's not really true. The best gas is a couple of 100. But that still people who were directly accused of being a wearable who actually died, and were found guilty of that accusation, which is, you know, impossible. So I think that it's interesting to consider that especially because a lot of the time, again, with wearables, as an example, you would be accused of being a werewolf in, you know, medieval Europe, not just for shapeshifting into a wolf, but for engaging in other deviant behavior, like serial murder, or cannibalism. Those people would also be accused of werewolves, and we see something similar but different, actually, in Africa. So there's a concept of the where hyena, and some parts of Sudan, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and parts of Morocco, where we can actually connect the accusation of hyenas shape shifting into humans. So the human skins the false one, which is really interesting to actual, like, discrimination and death of the Ethiopian Jews or the betta Israel. We can like kind of clearly trace the xenophobia happening in those places. And that led again to very real life consequences.

Nick VinZant 6:27

Most of our audience is kind of in the United Kingdom and in the United States In the United States. Are there places where you say when the in the United States like oh, this is always, for some reason, really stood out in Britain or the United States, where it hasn't like stood out in other places.

Dr. Emily Zarka 6:45

Britain is really interesting, particularly in England, I keep talking about werewolves, I'm sorry. But um, werewolves legends didn't really exist in England after a period of time because famously, The King ordered for all wolves to be killed in England. So when you don't have the wolf, it's really hard to you know, make the werewolf story. I think here in the US though, the big ones that come up are Bigfoot or Sasquatch, which people will swear up and down that it is real. And I'm not here to dismiss their experiences with that. And then I would say also the chupacabras, which originated in Puerto Rico, but now is more tied, I would say to like the south, west and Mexico in particular,

Nick VinZant 7:26

real kind of quickly, if we look at it, could you kind of sum up the history and what this monster has meant? I know that's kind of a big thing. But vampire vampires.

Dr. Emily Zarka 7:39

So vampires is such a broad category. If we're talking about sort of the Eastern European vampire. That is where a lot of what, at least in the Western world, we would conceptualize as like vampires today. So potentially shape shifting, you know, with things blood sucking can only walk around in the daytime, those things actually date to again, Eastern European folklore, legends that started being recorded around the 1700s. And what I think a lot of people forget about vampires is that these creatures get a reanimated corpse that somehow preys on the lifeforce of a human has been around for 1000s and 1000s of years, if not millennia, which is crazy to think about. But what we recognize today as a vampire, really only started when, alongside literature and the printing industry, where people started going around to these small communities and taking these legends and writing them down. And then those books would then be distributed, and even translated and distributed. And we see the vampire really come into the like Byronic anti hero or demon lover trope in the 19th century, along with the rise of Gothic literature for one thing, and then of course, vampires look really cool on film. So we have some early vampire movies pop up in the 20th century, as well. And I hate to say it cuz it's a cliche, but the vampire never dies. We've basically consistently seen some kind of vampire fiction for hundreds of years now, and I don't think that's happening anytime soon. In terms of what it means, I think it means different things depending on the characteristics of the vampire, including things like gender, and race and age of the vampires, for sure. But for me, vampires are about consumption and corruption. Unlike many other monsters, there's, you know, at least in European folklore, the idea that a vampire can turn a living human, into a vampire as well. And I think that this idea that we're all you know, one bite and one heartbeat away from turning into a monster can be both terrifying, but also exciting. I think for some people, there's a form of escapism, I think and imagining ourselves as monsters, or at least open to that. And while I think core as a whole is cathartic, not just it's not just To scare people in my opinion, I do think that we like to be entertained. And vampires look more like us, I think than some of the other monsters out there. So it's easier for us to transcribe meaning onto them.

Nick VinZant 10:11

They seem to be the only one that sexualized.

Dr. Emily Zarka 10:13

Yes and no, I mean, there's some weird stuff out there.

Nick VinZant 10:17

Particularly in general, there's always somebody, and if that's your thing, that's your thing. But in general, they seem to be the one like, why is that just because they like, oh, you know, like, that kind of looks like us? Or is it something about the vampire that seems to

Dr. Emily Zarka 10:32

I think that's part of it. What's actually interesting is before the vampire is like lovers sort of emerges. The werewolf is lover was actually something that's fallen by the wayside, which is interesting. But again, I think we can attribute this to the 19th century, to this idea that Gothic literature really solidified the character of you know, the brooding, handsome or beautiful but reclusive, seductive sort of monster character is that singular figure, and vampires can enter into homes very easily. So that I think is, again, easy to write into something. I do think that vampires as sexy they also is because of how vampires prey. It's about the age reach of your show is but it's incredibly phallic. There's this idea of penetration that's happening, even if that's just from a bite mark. And again, I think there's a lot of instances of you know, biting on the neck or the chest in the heart. And so when you already know things might be happening in like bedrooms, or more private enclosed spaces. So when you have penetration happening, and you know, a private space, I think that it's really easy to turn that into a sexual narrative.

Nick VinZant 11:44

That's why you take one step, it's not hard to get to, um, Frankenstein.

Dr. Emily Zarka 11:49

The question when I teach Frankenstein to always emerges is who's the real monster in Frankenstein? Because the idea of Dr. Frankenstein and I'm putting on an air quotes because it Mary Shelley's original text, he's not actually a physician, or even a philosopher, he dropped out of college. Fun fact, he's more of a natural philosopher, or what we recognize as a scientist. I think so is it Frankenstein? Who's the monster? Or is it his creation? The creature? Who's the monster and I think that that's a really one of the reasons that Mary Shelley's creation has been so endearing is that it's easy to cast both creator and creation as monstrous. And I think, again, that's another allegory, we can put on too many different things and questions about science, creating things that we don't understand or art for art's sake, what is beautiful, how should we be treating our creations? I think those are really interesting as well. But of course, Mary Shelley paved the way for science fiction. And I think that science fiction has always been very futuristically speculative. There are instances in science fiction that people like to say have predicted, like real things and real technologies that actually happen. So I think that for Frankenstein, we see revivals of Frankenstein, Frankenstein's creature repeatedly since that original publication and I think again, that's because it's as technology keeps advancing. So the Frankenstein and Frankenstein's creatures a really easy way to talk about potentially the dangers of technology and things like religion and procreation in lots of different ways. My favorite example though of Frankenstein, and Frankenstein's creature, actually comes from the show Penny Dreadful. I don't know if you've ever seen that I

Nick VinZant 13:37

just I can't watch anything scary like if it's above animation It's too scary for me.

Dr. Emily Zarka 13:42

I definitely spooky and scary but obviously coming from a completely different mindset. But there's Frankenstein is portrayed in that film, I think really accurate accurately to Shelley's original character and I think personally, it's the most accurate representation of the creature both in appearance and in personality. We have the black hair the yellow eyes, the black lips but Taliban is the name of what the creature names itself in the show is also incredibly sensitive and kind really just find a bind trying to find connection in the world. And when that backfires that's when he sort of really goes on his rampage and you know, swears to destroy everything that Frankenstein cares about, which is essentially the true novel not you know, the lumbering bolts in the neck kind of Frankenstein. So I'm partial. If anyone's a fan of Frankenstein, and Frankenstein's creature out there, I'd say definitely check out the Penny Dreadful series, or at least just those episodes.

Nick VinZant 14:35

Is there a main zombie or zombies has always just been a plural thing?

Dr. Emily Zarka 14:40

Oh, um, zombie has always been plural in the sense that zombies do MB I have actually emerges we can connect that monster directly to the transatlantic slave trade. There were some older spiritual practices in parts of Africa, about sort of Soul stealing or soul control. But it's the zombie is a concept solidified in Haiti during the slave trade there as both a way for people to find community for desperate individuals who would come all different backgrounds to sort of have the religion of voting to fall back on. But also zombie was considered a betrayal in the sense that if you were already enslaved bodily in life, what's the worst thing someone in your own community could do to you would be to enslave you after death. So when majority of the enslaved peoples population was moved to the US, that's when we see the zero NBI become the zombie with the E at the end that we more recognized today. So I think that zombies have always had the potential to be plural. Because the idea of how you create a zombie is a malevolent sorcerer, or magical practitioner, excuse me spiritual practitioner called a bow Corp, who takes control over the soul in the body. And I had the privilege of being able to talk to some real voodoo and voodoo priests and priestesses when I was filming the documentary exhumed history of zombies for PBS. And I was informed by those individuals that the zeal The zombie is very much of hate to say alive, but alive and well in those spiritual traditions. And that that is still something that happens to this day. So do you have the you know, resurrected running around cannibalism, zombie in those traditions? No, definitely not least my understanding. But I think zombies as a whole is a really interesting way of tracing modernity, not just looking back to the transatlantic slave trade, but if we see the zombie emerge from the Haitian zombie to the Romero zombie, to something maybe like the pandemic zombie and the what I was calling the hive zombie. As more and more people start to be present on the earth, we see the zombie number go up like extremely if you've seen a zombie movie in the last like 20 years, you can see this difference, right? You maybe have a couple 100 Or like a swarm become a couple 1000. And then I always think of something like World War Z, where you have what appears to be millions of zombies, just swarming. And I think again, overpopulation is something that we can sort of attribute that increase to

Nick VinZant 17:19

most overrated monster most underrated monster.

Dr. Emily Zarka 17:26

Oh, that's hard, like from a specific text or just in general,

Nick VinZant 17:29

I would say just in general, what you think would be like, Oh, that one's underrated. This one's kind of overrated like enough with that one already.

Dr. Emily Zarka 17:36

I don't think we see that much of them now, but I don't personally think like Cyclops or gargoyles are not cool. They just don't like really do it for me. I do think Yeti is a little overrated only because the original yetis were not actually supposed to be malevolent, or like bad or dangerous in any way. Underrated monster, the first thing that pops into my head. I think this would be a weird one. I think the Monongahela is underrated. It's a Filipino self segmenting vampiric monster that I'm obsessed with her. I think that they're absolutely crazy. I also think that some of the more modern monsters are a little underrated. And I think that that's because we haven't really explored their full stories yet has been about creation and been around long enough. So something like Slenderman or siren head, which largely emerged in you know, smaller online communities and then became part of larger pop culture texts really fascinate me. And I think modern folklore in general is underrated because this is an unprecedented time for folklorist. Whereas before, you know, we might have an idea of, well, the first time this monster appears in print, like maybe, maybe we can find that text. But the way folklore happens, and Monster stories happen organically and verbally between individuals, it's really hard to pinpoint like, this is exactly the period of time in which this monster originated. But that's different today, because we have timestamps on the internet. So we know not only the exact year that like Slenderman was invented, but literally the day and the time. And I just think that's so cool. I guess as just a history nerd, and someone who's a monster scholar has really been able to pinpoint or even locate the people who created these monsters. And I just, I think monsters are just super cool. And I think it's really I'm curious to see where they go in the future.

Nick VinZant 19:29

Why do you think that that is, though, because in my mind, right, like we had all these creations in the 1800s or whatever, right? Like Dracula, Frankenstein, all that and then there was nothing until like Slenderman Why do you think that is the seems like there's huge gap between where somebody like myself would be like, Oh, that's a new one.

Dr. Emily Zarka 19:48

I think we still see some trends. Like there was a big like the kaiju trend in the mid 20th century long, like the big bugs kind of situation. So I do think there have been a few smaller ones, but part of Why I think those at the 19 century monsters were so popular and they're so ubiquitous today is because after many of those original stories took off, there were also like stage adaptations, or operas or art and, you know, sequels created. And some of again, the first horror films involved those monsters. So I think that not only were they working with some really strong, original characters, but it was stuff that people had not just read about, but they had maybe seen, like an illustration of or seen on stage. And I think that that's easier again, to keep alive in the imagination. Whereas if you think of something like Slenderman, yes, there have been a couple, you know, movies, some better than others, but they don't have that longevity, at least yet. And I think that it, I'm curious to see what sticks around, you know, 1020 years from now, I just did an episode from Austin, about the SCP Foundation, I can see that one growing quite a bit, because it's a lot about government conspiracy, and you know, hidden knowledge. And some things are maybe supernatural, or natural things are real, maybe some art, maybe they can be contained. And I think that as misinformation continues to be an issue in our world in a lot of ways that we might see arise, and that kind of secret society type organization,

Nick VinZant 21:17

is there any trend in the sense where like back then, so to speak? These used to be things that people like, oh, maybe that's real. Like, now the one seemed like, There's no way that's real. Has that changed? Or have I just made that up?

Dr. Emily Zarka 21:31

I think there's always been skeptics, and there's always been believers. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. I mean, you could, I've done this right where pointed out like, hey, the DNA testing of this, you know, example of Yeti fur has been proven to be this type of bear. And there are still people who will swear up and down that that's just one sample or that, you know, that's just a lie, someone's telling. And that's been around for forever. Again, going back to those witchcraft or werewolf accusations. I'm sure there were people rolling their eyes are adamantly saying like, of course, this person isn't, you know, practicing a level of magic. But there are people who definitely believe so I just again, think that as we become more technologically advanced, and as communication spreads more rapidly, and things like science evolved, that maybe it's easier to dismiss certain things than it was in the past. But I do still think that there are people out there who want to believe that monsters are real. And I think that's a really interesting question.

Nick VinZant 22:22

That's pretty much all the questions that we have what's kind of coming up next for you? How can people learn more that kind of stuff? Yeah.

Dr. Emily Zarka 22:28

If you want to learn more about me, you can of course, go to my website, Dr. Emily sarker.com. I try to date it a lot of the time, but you can always contact me there and find some my current projects I'm working on. I should be appearing in. I almost just dropped into multiple syllabi. You might be hearing me on some other streaming platforms in audio format soon, which I'm excited about. And hopefully we can speak more of but Monstrum just wrapped filming for our fifth season, and we are definitely going to be making more. So definitely go to the story YouTube page to find the latest videos from Ostrom.

Nick VinZant 23:03

I want to thank Dr. Zarca so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media platforms. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description. If you want to see more of this interview, the YouTube version of it will be live on October 26 at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Okay, if you had a choice between being like a vampire, Frankenstein, mummy, werewolf, that kind of thing.

John Shull 23:46

Which one would you be? I feel like I would want to be a vampire first. Yeah, yeah. And then a werewolf.

Nick VinZant 23:57

I could potentially be convinced to be a werewolf instead of a vampire. But I think that I would be a vampire first.

John Shull 24:07

I just feel how the media has portrayed all of these creatures. That vampire is always seem to at least live the best lives to begin

Nick VinZant 24:16

being a vampire doesn't have a huge downside to it. Right? Like, Oh, can't go out at night, or can't go out during the day. It's not that big of a deal anymore. Right? Like, I mean, we did that. So I feel like Vampire has the least downside. Well, who would you least want to be though?

John Shull 24:35

I mean, out of the generic Halloween monsters. I mean, probably a zombie Frankenstein. Something that's kind of dead already. That just doesn't seem appealing to me.

Nick VinZant 24:48

I feel like last on my list would be Frankenstein. Because Frankenstein is basically like a zombie but he's still mentally there. At least a zombie. I don't think that you have any kind of mental capacity. A day like you're not really like Frankenstein, you know, you're a monster and you know, like you're never going to fit in. I feel like Frankenstein would struggle with the world more than the zombies would they just don't care.

John Shull 25:13

And then you think about werewolves what I really want to be a werewolf. I mean, you're gonna, you're gonna have to buy new clothes all the time, because you're just gonna be ripping out of the, you know, the current ones when you're a human.

Nick VinZant 25:24

That's always the big concern. That's what I never understood about some superheroes is like, you got to carry a change of clothes with you everywhere.

John Shull 25:33

I mean, maybe being a ghost would probably be my number two, but even that was it's just, you can't live uh, you know, you can't live a normal, great life because you're a ghost.

Nick VinZant 25:43

The only way that I would be a ghost is if I also had the capability of talking to other ghosts. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to be a ghost. Like, it'd be kind of cool to mess with people or see what's going on, hang around that kind of stuff. But after a while, that'll get pretty old. You'd be pretty lonely unless you could talk to other ghosts.

John Shull 26:00

Yeah, would get I think, from what the first week when you're, I don't know, flying around and nobody can see you and you're doing things that you know, you wouldn't be able to do if you were able to be seen now. That would be cool for maybe a week. And then yeah, you would just go into the state of depression.

Nick VinZant 26:19

Yeah, you wouldn't want to be a ghost for very long. Unless you can hang out with all the other ghosts, then it'd be pretty cool. Then you could have some fun with it. You could travel. Go see other ghosts. Like go do this mess with this person.

John Shull 26:31

Just scare people for no reason. Just laugh at each other. Sure. Yeah. Sounds great. It's a good

Nick VinZant 26:36

time, man. Have a good time. Are you good under pressure? Do you feel like you're good under pressure?

John Shull 26:41

I feel like you'd have to describe the moments of pressure. But I mean, I can get stuff done if that's what you're referring to.

Nick VinZant 26:49

I feel like under the pressure of being asked that question. You kind of cracked a little bit. I'm gonna say that you're like a six and a half to a seven under pressure.

John Shull 26:59

Alright, well shout out time. Let's see. We'll start with the gym doubt. Or doot.

Nick VinZant 27:05

You know him?

John Shull 27:08

I know Jim doubt. Yes.

Nick VinZant 27:12

You met him? He was at my wedding.

John Shull 27:14

Yeah, Jim. Hi. Good. Good to see Jim. Dang, dude. Dylan Ray. Hannah,

Nick VinZant 27:21

are you afraid? Do you forget people that you meet? Do you feel like you genuinely forget people? How long? How long does it take you to forget someone that you've met?

John Shull 27:30

Like, for instance, Jim, somebody I met one time, and I was probably under the influence of things. I mean, how was I supposed to remember his name? I have never even thought of him outside of that.

Nick VinZant 27:43

But in general, how often would you how long do you think that it takes you to forget somebody like you'll have to be reintroduced introduced to them and you forgot their name that kind of stuff.

John Shull 27:54

Probably a year, maybe less.

Nick VinZant 27:58

Oh, I was gonna say like a day or a week for me. I can forget somebody's name. I can forget somebody's name instantly.

John Shull 28:07

Names I'm not good with but if I if I see them, or if if they pop back up on my phone. I can usually go back to like knowing and recognizing them.

Nick VinZant 28:18

I can't remember names for shit. I can remember a little bit about somebody but not named.

John Shull 28:23

Okay. I'm kind of a nickname person. So if I come up with a nickname for you, I kind of go along with that one. Instead of knowing your actual name.

Nick VinZant 28:31

Do you think people want you to call them nicknames? Like, you know what, at what age do you not want to be called by a nickname anymore?

John Shull 28:40

I guess it depends if it's a flattering nickname or if it's not a flattering nickname.

Nick VinZant 28:46

Well, I don't think any nickname is really flattering.

John Shull 28:49

Sure. So some are good and some are good. Like David or T is the baseball player is forever going to be called Big Papi. That's a sweet nickname.

Nick VinZant 28:57

It's a sweet nickname, but it's also like it's bigger dude. Yeah, like this. There's always a slight bit of condescension and every nickname

John Shull 29:09

I don't disagree with you, but I don't agree either.

Nick VinZant 29:14

Okay, that makes sense. I'm gonna say once you're out of college, you don't want to have be called by a nickname anymore.

John Shull 29:21

Is you're gonna be like, it's your cup iced? No, or just faded is it just faded? I've had this cup for 12 years. For those of you who can't see this, this cup definitely looks like it looks like it's been around for 25 years.

Nick VinZant 29:36

Oh, yeah, it's been faded and washed. It used to be a great cup still good material, probably drinking all kinds of plastic chemicals. It's been sitting after that's gone through the washer 150 times but as far as safe for the body.

John Shull 29:49

I don't even remember where I left off after gym so I'm just gonna continue. Justin Tubbs Jen Thompson, Edward noec Sean Howard. two names for two first names for his name their Patrick Cook, Ethan shuck. Dylan Ray and Romane Ahmed

Nick VinZant 30:10

Dylan's another Dylan's another one of those names. That's a decent name, but there can only be so many of them. You don't want to have a lot of Dylan's

John Shull 30:18

Yeah, you don't. I think I know two Dylan's in my life right now. Two of them.

Nick VinZant 30:23

That's enough. That's all you need.

John Shull 30:25

That's enough Dylan's But say you're starring in a horror movie? Would you rather be the person that gets killed off first? Or be the survivor of the movie?

Nick VinZant 30:37

Well, I ultimately I'd rather live. I mean, I don't ever want to die. Like

John Shull 30:42

you're in a movie you're in. It's not like it's real life. You're in a movie?

Nick VinZant 30:46

Well, then I'd want to last or long around as long as possible. That means I got the brightest career. But right. Oh, see, that's

John Shull 30:53

that's a great point. Like think a scream of Drew Barrymore. Right. She gets killed off in the first 10 minutes.

Nick VinZant 30:59

Didn't even know she was in it.

John Shull 31:01

Oh, my God, of course. Okay, okay. Scream scream is probably the most notable franchise for doing that with, you know, semi famous celebrities. Like I think Jada Pinkett Smith was in the second one, and she gets killed off pretty early her and Omar Epps.

Nick VinZant 31:18

Well, they always kill, they always kill off people of color much quicker. Right?

John Shull 31:24

Well, that's actually and that's been debated to like, why does that happen? I'm sure there's all kinds of research and studies out there that prove as to why that happens. But yeah,

Nick VinZant 31:35

to answer your question, no, I'd like to live through it. Right. I like to be the last person I generally have. If I have a choice between being alive or generally choose being alive.

John Shull 31:44

Now, I think I'd want to go out first, like, just have me be the leading scene there. And I want to be the depth that you remember, I don't want to just be the big guy that wanders through the woods in the middle of the movie that just gets my head cut off. And then on to the next kill. You know,

Nick VinZant 32:00

I wouldn't want to be one of the middle people killed in a horror movie because I feel like those deaths are always unusually brutal. Like the first couple of them. They're just surprised deaths. They're not usually that bad. And then as you get going through the horror movie, it's like they were ripped apart by wild animals. Like they were stabbed 1000 times with a screwdriver like the deaths just get worse. So I'd rather go in the beginning of though.

John Shull 32:30

I don't think I've ever asked you this question on this podcast, even though we've done what six Halloween is together now, but you not being a horror movie fan? i My question is pretty simple. Have you ever seen a real horror movie? And if so, what's the last one that you've watched?

Nick VinZant 32:47

I don't think that I've ever seen it. I went no, maybe I went to see the movie scream in a theater. Maybe. But I also might have went and seen one of those parody movies and I can't keep it straight. But other than that, I've never watched any kind of horror related movie. I'll look up the plot on Wikipedia if I'm really interested in it. But I couldn't I can't watch it. I watched the Haunted Mansion from Disney and I was like it was pushing it a little bit. This is pushing out like scary, man.

John Shull 33:22

I'm not judging anybody, man, if that's your if that's your flavor, that's awesome. But I mean, you haven't seen any of the university in the Nightmare on Elm Street. Friday the 13th So I mean,

Nick VinZant 33:34

no desire to do that whatsoever. I have absolutely no desire to be scared.

John Shull 33:39

Well, you know, it's that's all right. It's we'll move on. My second part of my question here as a homeowner, do you pass out candy do you walk around with your kids and you say Don't you know just put out a bowl what's what's your candy? Putting out strategy on Halloween night?

Nick VinZant 33:58

I go pretty much all effort. I put out candy then I go trick or treating with my children. Then I come back and I hope that maybe we get some visitors because I don't want to eat all this candy. So I go pretty much all what do you not? Do you not do anything?

John Shull 34:13

No. So we we started with? Well, we went full on, you know, handing out candy that we had when we had the babies. So then we would go trick or treating last year was a first year while we were trick or treating. We put out a bowl of candy. And according to our doorbell camera some little bastards took the whole bowl within like five minutes of us leaving our driveway so I

Nick VinZant 34:34

have no problem with that. I get rid of the candy either way, what do you care if it's one kid, five kids or 20 kids just get?

John Shull 34:41

I mean, you kind of feel I mean, I don't know. I was I was kind of angry about it. I mean, you put out I don't know how many 5060 pieces of candy for hopefully all the kids and one fucker takes it all it's you know, it's not fair.

Nick VinZant 34:57

I mean, I'm okay with it. Do right be aggressive in life?

John Shull 35:03

So what you're saying is you applaud that kind of behavior?

Nick VinZant 35:05

Well, either way, I mean, the kids only going to get so much candy. If you load up at one house, then aren't they just leaving it for everything else? I just see it like you either get it all here, you get it a bunch of different places. What's the difference?

John Shull 35:18

Well, this year we have my neighbor's gonna keep a watchful eye on our bowl. So

Nick VinZant 35:22

what a waste of time that is, how old

John Shull 35:25

is too old to look forward to scaring kids on Halloween? Like, if you're a 45 year old man, and you go, or woman, and you go all out on Halloween, just just to get some scares out a little kids. Is that is that is that push that is that too much?

Nick VinZant 35:40

I don't generally approve of scaring children. Right? Like, you're gonna have to have a pretty good reason while you're doing this thing to scare children. I wouldn't have to say I generally don't agree with.

John Shull 35:53

I mean, there's I mean, I'm sure you get it in your neighborhood and people listening, have it in there, you get those few houses that you know, go all out. And they're gonna have jump scares, and shock scares as the kids are walking up to the door. And it's like, my kids, four years old man, and she you know, you don't have to get her.

Nick VinZant 36:10

You got to turn that off. Right? Like if you're trying to do that for like 12 to 16 year olds. That's the thing that I don't understand. The only kids that you should be interested in scaring are the kinds of kids that are old enough that they shouldn't be trick or treating?

John Shull 36:24

Well, that's funny. You mentioned that. That was another question I had for you while we're on this Halloween theme is what is too old to go out trick or treating without children?

Nick VinZant 36:34

I mean, I think you should probably be done by high school. I think high school should be done if not earlier than that, right. But I also think that people are in too much of a hurry to, to grow up. I feel like adults should go trick or treating now, go have fun. Like if your adults showed up at your door. If an adult showed up at your door, clearly without children, would you give them candy?

John Shull 37:00

I'm sure I've done it. So I'm gonna say yes. I mean, there was. I want to say there's 21 Because it's right after the pandemic, like right after 2020 the, you know, the real, real bad year, the pandemic and we had one one kid show up, and he's like, trigger tree. I looked at my wife, I'm like, hell is this fucking guy? Damn

Nick VinZant 37:21

near 30. But what age though, would you what? At what age? Would you not give a trick or treat or candy? 20s 30s 40s

John Shull 37:31

I'm not sure that I would turn somebody down. I don't know if I could do that. I mean, I feel like that takes a lot of gall to look at somebody walking up to your door and have them go through all that just to go. I'm not giving you one little KitKat bar because you're a 67 year old man.

Nick VinZant 37:48

I'm not giving anybody between the ages of 25 and 35. Candy. That's the age where it's like it's not ironic enough. Like, No, you shouldn't be doing this.

John Shull 37:58

I mean, it's a lot. I mean, it's definitely a lot when somebody comes up and they're now with children or even part of a group.

Nick VinZant 38:06

How many of you have coming up to your house that aren't children are part of a group. Do you have that many adults coming trick or treating where you're at?

John Shull 38:13

I mean, I don't know if they're adults, but other definitely teenagers. Matt, you know, but they you know, they look 50 so

Nick VinZant 38:22

good today look older, man. That's pretty damn sure. Ah, are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 38:27

I am. It's gonna be a spooky top five. No, it's okay.

Nick VinZant 38:31

No, it's not. So our top five is top five worst candies to get trick or treating. What's your number five.

John Shull 38:39

So that's about as generic as you can get. But I had to put it on and my number five is just unnamed candies. You know, like the ones that would come in like the wax paper?

Nick VinZant 38:48

Yeah, like the strawberry looking things.

John Shull 38:52

Yeah, just it's you just know by when you get a handful of it that it's just gonna be crap from the get go.

Nick VinZant 38:58

You don't even want it. You don't I don't even want it. I'd rather you just said you didn't have any candy. Um, my number five is taffy. I don't want any kind of taffy or any of that kind of candy. Like whose Taffy it shouldn't be chocolate. Or Halloween candy should basically just be chocolate should all be chocolate. And that's essentially it.

John Shull 39:22

I mean, I would bet that both of our lists it's gonna you're gonna be hard pressed to find any kind of chocolate on a top five words candy list.

Nick VinZant 39:31

No, I think all Halloween candy should be chocolate or have some chocolate in it. Anything else is kind of in the wrong path.

John Shull 39:39

All right, all right. My number four are the wax bottles with the juice in them. Do you remember those? Seemed like seemed like a good idea. But we're such a pain in the ass for what you actually got the juice was always okay. But getting there was just a pain in the butt.

Nick VinZant 39:57

You can't have more than like three to five have of those. Like, I don't want to have 20 of those things like, oh, okay, I'll have one more of those that was kind of different, but then I'm done. It's over with after that

John Shull 40:09

one. It's just like it's just a pain in the butt. And then you know, you go to bite the wax off, and then sometimes you bite into the body and then the juice spills out all over the place, and you just have a mouth loads of wax and it's just, it's just not worth it. Not worth it at all.

Nick VinZant 40:23

No, no, my number four is bitter honey. Okay, yeah, nobody wants that.

John Shull 40:31

I've actually never gotten a bit of honey if I do remember if I do, I don't remember it. I just threw it away or gave it to my dog.

Nick VinZant 40:39

I really have a bit of chocolate said have a bit of honey.

John Shull 40:43

rather have a lot of chocolate.

Nick VinZant 40:46

Okay, number three. Number three. My

John Shull 40:47

number three is probably not going to be a popular choice. But I'm going with pixie sticks as my number three.

Nick VinZant 40:54

Yeah, I don't I don't know if that's number three. But I certainly don't want anything like that are those like dipping things?

John Shull 41:02

So specifically pixie sticks when they came in? And maybe we're I'm aging myself here, but the paper tubes were like when you went to go like, bite it off. If you if you were if you were a jeweler like me, then it gets all nasty and coagulated and nothing comes out and it's just, it's just a pain in the neck.

Nick VinZant 41:24

I don't really want to deal with any complicated candies. No, I don't want to have to there's there should be no more than one step and eating candy. I don't want to dip it. All right, let's open it eat it. That should be the only two steps. My number three is any kind of like suckers, or lollipops or anything like that. The only thing that I could maybe see is like a Tootsie Pop or as chocolate in the middle of it. But anything other than that I don't want any suckers or lollipops or anything like that.

John Shull 41:53

Oh, man. I mean, I don't agree with you there man. suckers are good suckers. Or I don't remember what they're called. But they're the green apple with a caramel on the outside of it. Those are delicious.

Nick VinZant 42:06

I don't want any kind of I don't want anything that I'm not chewing. That's my rule.

John Shull 42:13

My number two and this is such cliche, but it's true. Because this candy is fucking terrible. And that's candy corn.

Nick VinZant 42:25

I don't know if I've no. But was it always that bad? Or is it become a thing where like, now we hate it. Like, oh, it's just the candy that everybody makes fun of? It's the Nickelback of candy. Or it's like really everybody doesn't mind it that much. But it's not that bad. It's just got a bad reputation.

John Shull 42:44

The Nickelback

Nick VinZant 42:47

it's what candy corn is

John Shull 42:49

those funny. Um, I do believe you know, public public opinion has kind of taken over for candy corn, but it's just not very good. I will say some of the variants like chocolate candy corn. Other kinds of cake or stomach bubble but are tolerable, but not It's not regular candy corn. What's it gonna taste like wax half the time?

Nick VinZant 43:10

My number two is that bubble gum? Double Bubble. That was just hard is a brick mic.

John Shull 43:18

You're insane. You're talking about the little rectangle. you'd like us to get the comic strips on the outside. Yeah, but

Nick VinZant 43:25

it was just like a rock. Any kind of like cheap gum that they would give you is just like a rock that you couldn't do anything with.

John Shull 43:33

Now cheap gum I'd give you but not mad. Don't throw a double bubble in there, man.

Nick VinZant 43:38

It was. It was I don't think that was the comic strip one. There. What I know what you're talking about the comic strip gum, but I don't think it's double bubble.

John Shull 43:48

I could very well be wrong. I insane that I would have gone nowhere. That's probably the only candy that actually eat on a regular basis is GM

Nick VinZant 43:56

Bazooka Joe. Okay, yeah, that's Bazooka Joe was the comic. Was that the comic? I don't mind Bazooka Joe. But any of that other kind of like double bubble. Well, it was just like grinding through pebbles. That was yeah, no, no. Okay, whichever one

John Shull 44:13

this should be everyone's unanimous number one because they are and I was looking up some lists before doing this and it was the unanimous number one. And those are circus peanuts.

Nick VinZant 44:26

Oh, wait, but not like actual peanuts. Like the candy circus peanuts.

John Shull 44:30

They're like they are so they're shaped like peanuts, but they're orange. And they're they have like a like a taffy texture. Yeah, like they're like they look like they're gonna be soft, but they're not soft and they taste bad. And when I was a kid, there was always this house. That would give you them but they weren't in bags. They weren't in packaging. So like they would just dump a handful into your bag of circus peanuts. Yeah, and by By the time you get back to your house, they'd either be stale or hard. And it just they were like I said, I've said this about six times already, but they were intolerable to even try.

Nick VinZant 45:11

Why would you go back to the house?

John Shull 45:13

I mean, you never know. Right? Why do you get back with old girlfriends and boyfriends? Because maybe, maybe they're gonna change, you know, you never know.

Nick VinZant 45:20

Kind of give it one more shot. Maybe today's the day. No circus peanuts are terrible. That's the kind of thing that I would just never in my life if I ever thought about eating that or known someone who enjoyed them, like who's keeping that candy in business.

John Shull 45:37

I know one person who enjoys them, and I question his tastes on almost everything.

Nick VinZant 45:43

Yeah, that's pretty standard. If you're going to eat something like that, you got a lot of bad tastes. Um, my number one is, um, any kind of cracker or cheez it. Or anything that kind of comes in a bag that people hands you anything like that. I don't want any of that stuff on Halloween. It's essentially chocolate or nothing, just give me chocolate.

John Shull 46:04

Just said, my top five is anything that's not chocolate.

Nick VinZant 46:08

Anything that's not chocolate is basically the worst kind of Halloween candy.

John Shull 46:12

I would always get excited actually, if I got packets like that, because you never knew what was in them. I, you know, I didn't want the one Tootsie Roll, which are also kind of terrible, too. By the way, Tootsie Rolls are not very good candy. You know, one thing that I never really, like, maybe it was just the area I grew up in are the houses that we went to. But I didn't get a lot of full candy bars.

Nick VinZant 46:36

I had one or two houses that would give a full candy bar. But I don't think that I ever came back with more than three full candy bars on a night a trick or treating.

John Shull 46:45

I mean, we had there was one person that lived like four houses down from us that would just hand out single pennies. And now looking back on it. I'm like, what a pissed off person to give out single pennies.

Nick VinZant 46:57

Like what am I going to do with that? If I go to 100 houses I could get $1? Like, what are you gonna do with that?

John Shull 47:05

I mean, obviously different times. I mean, this was the early 90s. So pennies had a little bit more value than they do now. But not not much at all.

Nick VinZant 47:14

You could never buy anything with that. Never there's there can't be a single person in the entire United States of America who has ever like, gotten enough pennies or money on Halloween to actually buy something.

John Shull 47:29

I'm sure there is I'm sure someone's going to post it somewhere for us and say hey, you were wrong, Nick so and so got 42,000 pennies went all the way night or something

Nick VinZant 47:40

sack of pennies. I mean, you got 42,000 I don't know how much money that is. That's like foreign toy dollars, actually. What's your honorable mention? Do you have any honorable mention?

John Shull 47:50

That's a lot of work for me. Not a word. I have hot tamales.

Nick VinZant 47:57

Okay, I don't mind a hot tamale. I can shake it up a little bit. It's just that's an approved shake it up candy to bring me back to like, Oh no, I actually want this again that

John Shull 48:08

I put Smarties on the list because, oh, one package of Smarties is kind of pushing it but when you get multiple packs of Smarties and it's just I don't know they're just not not at a candy to me Smarties.

Nick VinZant 48:22

I would put that in there like you can have a couple category like I can have a couple of Smarties a couple of Tootsie Rolls, a couple of like a candy in a box like a milk dud or whatever else comes in there. But that's about it. Otherwise, it's got to be m&ms, Reese's Pieces. KitKat, tic tac, tic tic, Twix, Twix, Detroit tax

John Shull 48:43

exempt Max and paddywax. Um, what else do Yeah, that's kind of I mean, that's that's kind of it. I also put on here like any caramel candy, but that's just my preference. I'm not a big caramel fan. So

Nick VinZant 48:59

I never like caramel on the outside of anything. I can handle caramel on the inside, but I never want it on the outside of something.

John Shull 49:05

And for God's sakes, if you're listening to this, and you listen to anything we ever say, which is your own fault. Don't give fruit do not give fruit out on Halloween. That's just a terrible idea

Nick VinZant 49:17

what it was like blueberries now somebody gave me blueberries I'd be okay with that. Like, here's the thing of blueberries

John Shull 49:22

for fruit. Nobody in this country is heading out, you know, one blueberry a half, you know, eight ounces of blueberries per kid with the price of blueberries but that was that's just a terrible idea.

Nick VinZant 49:35

And then you had a watermelon slice. What are some What if you went to somebody's house and they had a watermelon slice?

John Shull 49:40

The only way that I'm okay with getting you know, treats like that is if you know the people well. And if it's like in a hot climate.

Nick VinZant 49:51

What fruits Would you accept as Halloween gifts? Or what what what fruits Would you accept as Halloween triggered? Freeze. Like if they gave you this kind of fruit, you'd be like, okay, all right.

John Shull 50:05

I wouldn't accept any actually. And last year that we had some apples and bananas. Nope.

Nick VinZant 50:13

I would accept blueberries, watermelon, mango.

John Shull 50:20

I mean, if you're asking me my personal preference, I mean, I mean, I take most fruit. I think I like fruit. So,

Nick VinZant 50:26

I'm not taking any oranges or apples. You gotta give me some exoticness. There has to be a little bit of it exotic ability to the fruit. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really does help out the show. It supports us a lot. So even a couple of quick words really helps us out and let us know what you think are similar, just the worst candies to get the kind where you would I just don't even want this. Like why would you even have this I would honestly take a mango or some blueberries. You give me like a watermelon? I would rather have watermelon than any of the candies that we talked about. Any of John or eyes

Exorcist Bishop Bryan D. Ouellette

Bishop Bryan D. Ouellette says he’s performed hundreds of exorcisms. Now, he’s here to tell his story. We talk what really happens during an exorcism, the stages of demonic possession and if demons are actually real. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Celebrities with Animal Names.

Bryan D. Ouellette: 01:08

Pointless: 31:16

Top 5: 51:14

Contact the Show

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Vestiges After Dark Podcast

Interview with Exorcist Bishop Bryan D. Ouellette

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode exorcism, and animals celeb celebrities,

Bryan D. Ouellette 0:20

we all experienced this whether we believe in demons or evil or not. And that is that's the yet Sahara experience. So the the I would change with the personality, they were literally physically becoming a different person, this would just be where a place does feels evil.

Nick VinZant 0:42

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So I want to get right to our first guest. This is exorcist Bishop, Brian De Willette. So how many exorcisms Have you performed?

Bryan D. Ouellette 1:10

Well, I mean, that would be more than I can count, probably. I mean, definitely in the hundreds. But it's important, I think, to note that most exorcisms are not what you you know, associate with like, the movies. You know, those are called solemn exorcisms where, you know, the person is usually pretty bad off, it's usually full blown possession. And it requires all of the resources of the rights of exorcism to resolve those kinds of cases. But those are so rare. We almost never see them. However, minor exorcisms are what we tend to perform more often than not, and that resolves, I'd say 98 99% of all cases that we see.

Nick VinZant 1:53

So when you do an exorcism, right, like let's look at the minor exorcism and then the major exorcism so to speak. What are you doing in a minor exorcism? What are you doing in a major one?

Bryan D. Ouellette 2:06

Well, in a minor one, it's it's shorter. By hours, I'd say a solemn exorcism could take on any given session could take three, four hours to complete. Whereas a minor exorcism can typically be done in less than a half an hour. It's a shorter prayer. It is really just that it's a prayer, a very aggressive prayer where the the person who confers it which is usually going to be a priest, although there are minor exorcisms that are authorized for the laity to us as well. Where the individual affirms their, their Christian authority over dark forces. And that's essentially all it is. With a solemn exorcism or a major exorcism. What you're now doing is having to go through the process of unraveling the onion that is the case typically, this is reserved for possessions only. Minor exorcisms can be performed on any particular kind of disturbance that can be performed on an object, location, or a person. They typically are used for resolving demonic oppressions or obsessions. But possession is usually reserved for the solemn right.

Nick VinZant 3:27

Can you give me an example of like what that prayer would be the minor exorcism prayer?

Bryan D. Ouellette 3:33

Yeah, it's it's your call on the Blessed Virgin you call on St. Michael, the archangel, you call on all of the forces of the church to liberate the object, location or person from the effects of what has been confirmed to be some kind of malevolent spiritual force like a demon. And that's essentially one of the simplest ones that the laity can use. Doesn't have to be an exorcist that praises is the St. Michael prayer St. Michael, the archangel defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares the devil, may thou rebuke thee, you know, that kind of stuff, and then you just continue on, you know, it's not a long prayer, but you know that these are just things that you can use to facilitate that connection to assist and aid in the clients recovery process, because essentially, as an exercise you are, you know, you are a facilitator. You know, you're not a magician, you're not a wizard, you're not coming in performing incantations, what you're doing is you're facilitating the victim's connection to God.

Nick VinZant 4:50

So, what is the person possessed by

Bryan D. Ouellette 4:54

that's that's an interesting question. I mean, that will vary depending upon who you talk to the conventional Understanding in the churches that this is a a sentient, Fallen Angel, you know that one of these forces of the devil that are out there looking for targets. And so you know, that's where, as an exorcist I have seen demonic entities with my eyes. I've seen them.

Nick VinZant 5:24

How many like what percentage of the people that you would say come to you come to you with an issue that is not worthy of an exorcism?

Bryan D. Ouellette 5:35

Um, I would say, when we started this work, it would have been probably somewhere I mean, this is not a scientific number. It's just Yeah, I do have my own experience. I'd say probably about 60 to 70% When I started this work, but now that I've been on TV, now it's like, probably closer to 90 95% really have a lot of malingerers. Now,

Nick VinZant 5:57

it brings in a certain amount of that. Yeah, it does. It does. So from a religious perspective, and I know that I'm going to get this wrong, it kind of confuses me, I can never quite keep it straight. Right. But from a religious perspective, is this a Christian thing is just a Catholic thing.

Bryan D. Ouellette 6:15

The flavor of it, that we deal with is specifically Christian, but the idea of working with evil forces that need to be resolved through some kind of exorcism process sort of exists in some capacity in every religion, every major religion. And even the minor wants to I mean, shamanism has formulas for dealing with evil spirits. You know, Judaism has ways of negotiating with depicts and evil spirits to raise a family of some kind of attachment that could potentially come up. Islam has methods for working with the jinn that they they they understand them to be different things than what Christianity does, Christianity will of course, see them more as like fallen angels, or, you know, rebellious evil spirits. Whereas Buddhism would say, Well, no, these are the these are the forces of attachment that are here to pull you back into the wheel of samsara, so that you can never liberate yourself. And you're stuck, you know, reincarnating and indefinitely until you finally resolve your karma. And so, but they they do all of these religions see them as external forces that need to be contended with in an external way.

Nick VinZant 7:28

How does the church necessarily look at it? Right? There's the church look at this is like, look, exorcism is a fundamental thing, along with kind of, you know, the basic tenets of the religion, or even within the church, are people kind of like, I don't know about that.

Bryan D. Ouellette 7:45

Yeah, it's changing. There are, of course, people in the church that take it seriously. You know, but there are people in the church that think it's a lot of nonsense. And, you know, these are people that need mental health care. And there are even priests, I've known them. I've, I've been trained by them, you know, that, that will look at exorcism and say, well, that's just, that's just how we would have understood mental illness in the in the ancient world, or in the Middle Ages, we didn't have psychology,

Nick VinZant 8:23

I'll be dramatic and kind of asking the inevitable question, right. But what would you what would you say to somebody who might be listening to this? And just, what are you talking about? Right? Like, what is this, none of this is real, you can't prove any of this.

Bryan D. Ouellette 8:39

It's not about proving it see incorporeal experience, it has to be dealt with at the level of where that individual is at. And so it doesn't matter if it's objectively true to you or not. What matters is a person's having an experience, and it is destroying their life. And the Church and its methods work. So why would we not use it just because you don't believe in it? You're not that important. None of us are, you know, so a person that rejects it, okay, reject it. You know, that's, that's your prerogative. But for the people that actually go through this, they're grateful that there is an individual that cares enough to be able to help them through it. And hopefully, the church is doing its job. And that because that's what it exists to do is to help people through those incorporeal challenges. I mean, so to me, it's irrelevant whether or not people believe it or not, that's not what I don't do this to prove it to myself or to prove it to anyone. I do this because it works. And it's worked for 1000s of years. All these religions around the world know it works, whether they're Christian or not. And I think it's kind of arrogant for us in our modern day to say, Oh, well, we understand it now. And It's all a bunch of nonsense when, you know, billions, if not trillions of people over the last 4000 5000 years, had an understanding about this, and used it and it became part of our reality to the point that all over the world it was it's being utilized. And only today Have we started to say, oh, that's nonsense. I mean, that's arrogant, you're gonna, you're gonna just throw out what all of our ancestors have believed for 5000 years, just because you think you're more enlightened than they are? Maybe you're missing something. So that's kind of how I would answer a person that says, That's me, because it's like, you know, you're kind of missing the point, we're not about proving anything. Yeah, Ghost Hunters are about proving and let them go and prove if they can. I'm not a ghost hunter, you know, I am here to help people with an incorporeal problem. And there is no science that that can objectively work with that. Even psychology fails. And you'd be surprised how many psychologists call us with clients that they will say they've seen things that they can only say, relates to what they've seen in the movies on possession. And they're like, I don't know, if I'm equipped to deal with this. I mean, even once that this is above my paygrade, you know, and they call us. So even psychologists, even medical doctors, I've even had medical doctors call me, not just for their patients, but for themselves. So you know, it's all well and good, and you can dismiss it and not believe in it, until it happens to you. And then, you know, you'll be grateful there are people like me that can that know how to resolve it.

Nick VinZant 11:39

I don't really even know what I necessarily believe. Like, I changed my mind about what I believe all the time. But I would say that I do believe that it doesn't matter if it's real. If you think it's real. Your mind is a powerful thing. Like the reality of it is irrelevant. If somebody really believes this, I

Bryan D. Ouellette 11:58

guess it's true. It is true.

Nick VinZant 12:01

The only thing that I guess would be devil's advocate, I don't know if that's the right word, right. But like, what if you get somebody that is convinced that, okay, it's it's a demon, I'm possessed. And you go about this route, but maybe this person is schizophrenic. I don't know about mental health enough to but you I think you know what I'm asking you, right? Like, what if you go down this road? And it was like, Oh, really? They need this and they need this medication? Right? How does that happen? Is that a concern that you guys have?

Bryan D. Ouellette 12:33

Well, that's why the psychological evaluations are so important. So if a person is diagnosed with a psychotic disorder, like schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder, or acute psychosis, anything like that, then we're just there as as as spiritual support and in the capacity of any pastor, we go, and we pray with them, if they want that, if that's what they want, but they're not going to get an exorcism, the only time we would come in is if there starts to be manifestations that cannot be explained by schizophrenia. And so, if there's, if the person is living in the house, you know, with a family, and the family is experiencing paranormal events, well, schizophrenia shouldn't do that.

Nick VinZant 13:18

Why did you how did you get into this? Like, why did you pursue this

Bryan D. Ouellette 13:23

exorcism? I really didn't. I found my vocation again, I discovered my vocation to priesthood very, I was probably around 16 years old. And I just wanted to keep running away from it because I didn't like the idea of celibacy. You know, as a Roman Catholic priests, I knew I could never be married. And that wasn't attractive to me. I wanted to have a family. And there was other factors, you know, just not I wanted to be an investment banker. So I was like, that's a big difference from you know, being a clergymen. You know, those were my interests, you know, and this was not interesting to me, but it just kept resurfacing and coming back. And eventually, I tried to bridge the gap with psychology, you know, trying to find sort of a more interesting way of pursuing helping people but you know, but it, you know, long story short, I ended up here. But my goal was really just to be a pastor, you know, perform weddings, baptize babies, hear confessions, you know, just do pastoral things. You know, no one chooses, I don't think to say, oh, I want to be an exorcist. So we were getting people coming to us that were asking for this kind of help. But they were being rejected by the Roman Catholic Church locally. And so they said, well, they won't help us. Can you help us? And I said, Well, I mean, my duty as a pastor is to help everyone that steps through my door if I can. So tell me what's going on. And so they explained it and I had had some training in there. When I was a seminary and in the Roman Catholic Church working under a mentor, Pastor Emeritus, was now deceased. And, and I said, Well, I know what to do, I can, I can try to help where, you know, the Roman Catholic Diocese wouldn't. And we've resolved it, you know, and I guess work it out, and they started telling people, and then other people started coming to us. And before we know it, people were coming to us more for this than anything else. And as a pastor, my obligation is to just help people spiritually wherever they're at, and that's what they needed. So that's kind of how I fell into this work. And, and that's how I got started. So yeah, I mean, it kind of fell into it out of necessity, not because I chose to do it.

Nick VinZant 15:44

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it. Are there different stages of demonic possession?

Bryan D. Ouellette 15:52

Oh, yes, definitely. The general stages that we look at, and of course, they don't necessarily follow this in some kind of linear order. And it's not like it will always be the same pattern every time it can, there can sometimes be full blown possession right off the as the first manifestation, although that's exceptionally rare. But it's typically the stages that we look for SAS would be the first and most simple would be just basically what I call demonic interference. And that's what we all experienced this, whether we believe in demons or evil or not. And that is, that's the yet Sahara experience that's like, you know, going through and doing something, but all of a sudden, like, there's this kind of negative voice in the back your subconscious saying, I should do this, this would be better, even though you know, it's wrong. So anytime you get a temptation to do the wrong thing, which we all have experienced at some point in our life, and you're lying to yourself, if you think you haven't, that would be demonic interference. That would be sort of the first stage, honestly, because in a lot of cases, that if that's allowed to progress, if a person is allowed to indulge us too much in those temptations, it can, it can, it can include a a sort of upward spiral, or I should say, downward spiral into deeper forms of, of demonic activity. So the second is, the more is more severe, and that's going to be like demonic obsession. And demonic obsession is when it affects mostly their eat their psyche and their emotional centers, but doesn't really have any physical manifestation at all. They're, they're usually in good health, there's nothing else going on. But they're every everything that they're experiencing seems to be psychological, this is a very difficult stage, because this is almost indistinguishable from mental illness. The third would be demonic oppression. And that's where it can look a lot like possession. But it's not the person still has control over their own faculties. But now it starts to affect their external world, it starts to affect their family, it starts to affect their health. And then the last stage is possession. So that's going to be when they no longer have control over their faculties where they truly lose themselves in this in this evil persona that sort of takes over and speaks for them and controls them and completely destroys their life and their relationships. There's a subcategory that's kind of related, but is its own thing. And that would be a demonic infestation, that tends to affect people through either oppression or obsession, or could even relate to possession. But it's when an environment is has the attachments that of a person. And these are really interesting, because what this shows us is that the energy is tangible to the point that it's not just all in someone's head, if one wants to see it that way. It does have some kind of externalization, there are places that this energy exists, and it makes people extremely sick when they coexist in those environments for too long. So that's kind of all the stages, that's what we're looking for, when we're trying to determine whether or not there's a genuine demonic event going on. It's gonna fall into one of those five categories,

Nick VinZant 19:25

the infestation, but can you give me an example of that, like a place that you've seen, or

Bryan D. Ouellette 19:31

this would just be where a place does feels evil? You know, I mean, to the lay person going in, they might say, I get a bad feeling in that place. I don't like it there. I don't want to go back there and they don't know why they might they might, they might believe in demons. They might not. But they'll just usually anybody, even an atheist could go in and say, there's just something that's unpleasant about this. And they might try to find tangible reasons for why they might feel that way. But when you're there, it feels dark. It feels disturbing. It can give people anxiety, it can raise their blood pressure when they're in these places. And there's just something disturbed about it. And I think there's, you know, places where there has been a lot of trauma. in pop culture contexts, it might just get labeled as a haunting, or, you know, something of that nature, you might say, Amityville would be a good example, if you want to. I mean, not that I believe Amityville was a real thing. I don't, I really don't. I think that was a made up story. But if it were a real story, if it did happen the way it was reported, then that would be an example of a demonic infestation, a trauma happened there, murders, and, you know, family murders, you know, kids were killed. And there was residual energy that sort of took on a life of its of its own, and so that new people would move in and be affected. The reason I don't believe it is that only the lens has ever said there was anything going on, there was a lot of holes to their story. And everybody that's lived in the house after that has reported nothing. Worst case you've ever had, well, any full blown possession. So I think I can't really say there's one worse than another, they're all They're all difficult, they're all unpleasant to witness, they're hard to resolve. Once it gets to that point. It can take months or even years, I guess the part of my work that is a little magical, you know, it sort of works outside of the will of the person is that I can bring them back to, to awareness, you know, so when if a person's far too far gone into a possession, where only the demon is talking, then the rights of exorcism can bring them back to a certain stage of coherence, where you can then reason with them. And that's when you really have to do your work. Okay, all these prayers, and holy water is all great and they're all but the real work is getting them sober again, bring them back to a state of, of sobriety, awareness, and then being able to be like, Okay, now I need you to work with me, I need you to help me. Let's, let's purge this from your life.

Nick VinZant 22:10

So when we talk about like a full possession, what does that look like? What does that really look like?

Bryan D. Ouellette 22:17

Okay, so it's a lot like the movies, you know. So if we're going to use like, the actresses like Linda Blair is sort of the archetype of possession. It's a lot like that only, that's more exaggerated than what we would really see. So you're never going to see head spinning. I've never encountered that you're not going to see levitation to the ceiling. But you will see some of that profane behavior, the vulgarity, the nasty, you know, verbal attacks against the priests or sacrilege, you know, that they will sometimes say, there will be that guttural sort of beastly voice that can sometimes come out of people that you're you could not fathom that they could make those noises, or sound like that. I've seen children, young girls, maybe younger than Linda Blair, in that movie, talk with a deep masculine voice that just like there's just no way their vocal cords could produce that sound. You'll sometimes see words, not quite like, where it comes out in this three dimensional helped me, but there'll be like scratches on the on the body that will form letters that can turn into words, or symbols. speaking in languages that they have never learned, is something that we will sometimes see not always but sometimes, sometimes you'll hear more than one voice coming out. And that's always an interesting manifestation. Because how could you be saying two different things from the same voice? And that's when there's more than one presence, which is often you know, one of the things that you want to know is not only getting their name, but you want to know how many are there. And how many do you have to expel? It's not really expelling it's more like dissolving but that's another story. As far as as, you know, everything else it's it's what you kind of would expect they're violent, they're angry. They're disturbed. They can go stiff as a board. They can increase in strength far beyond what a person of their stature could could normally produce. I've seen little old ladies be able to really wrestle you out with wrestle Five Guys, I've seen children. Knock two guys over or, you know, with just moving their arm? I mean, it can be very exaggerated in that respect. But, you know, you know what, when you see it, it's wouldn't be shocking in the sense. I mean, it'd be shocking, because you'd be like, I didn't know this could actually really happen. But it wouldn't shock you like, this is so different than I thought it would be. No, you'd be like, Yeah, this is kind of what I expected. It's just kind of shocking that you're seeing it with your own eyes and not on a television screen with an actor,

Nick VinZant 25:32

right? I mean, I would be like, Oh, my God, how would get out of there? I'm done. I'm out here. Do you get scared?

Bryan D. Ouellette 25:41

No, no, I've never never been frightened by anything that I've done in this work. It just doesn't bother me, though. I know, there are people that do get bothered by it. We've had people that once they've had that one big case, they've never come back. We've had people that could not control the effects of doing this work for the long term and have slowly develop their own attachments. Or more accurately, I should say, some of the darkness that has already latent within them has started to surface through having been exposed to this kind of energy on a regular basis, and not taking the proper spiritual precautions to avoid that from happening. And then they have to leave, you know, so we're a very small team. Now, I used to have like, gosh, I used to have like 10 or 10, over 10 people. And now we, I pretty much work with three or four, then if it's a, if it's a case with a actual possession, then we might bring in a couple extra guys to hold the victim down, if they get violent, because that can just one of the things that these that the demonic entity will always try to do is, is distract, they will always try to stop and interrupt the process. So you need to reduce the the the potential for that by having other people that are there to kind of just hold them down so that I can just do my work. But you know, there's been cases where I've had to wrestle the client myself, you know, because we just don't have the manpower. I try to avoid those situations, but I'm perfectly capable of doing it about half two. And we've done that a few times.

Nick VinZant 27:34

This one kind of ended, I guess on a slightly lighter note, um, movie with the best description of it, movie with kind of the worst description of it.

Bryan D. Ouellette 27:45

Well, the worst one I've seen in recent time was the Pope's exorcist that was just horrible. Not only was it inaccurate, but it was just a terrible movie. Very disappointed in that I expected more from Russell Crowe. The best one, I don't know if it's the best pick action. But it's, it was fairly accurate in many ways. And that was the right was Anthony Hopkins. I would say that's a really good I mean, as good as Hollywood's gonna get it in terms of that respect. Also, the exorcist isn't bad. It's just, again, it's exaggerated. But a lot of the things you see in there, not the crab walk that was like deleted and then put in in the special edition. You know, that kind of stuff doesn't typically happen. Not the levitation to the ceiling, and all of the things I already mentioned. But as far as like the way that the person looks sick, and that their physical face faces, you know, the physical face changes, and they're not the person they used to be. That's all very accurate. The priests resolution in that movie was absolutely completely wrong. You never would say, Take me dammit, take me, you know, and then jump out the window to kill it. That's not how that is not an effective exorcism. And that would be honestly laughable to be like, you had no business being an exorcist to begin with. If that's your solution. Now, you would stay there and fight it out until that person is liberated. And if you're not strong enough to do that, then you have no business doing the work to begin with. So that was the only part because that was for dramatic effect, right? They had to make something crazy go on. So you can forgive it on the basis that it's a good story. But everything else was actually quite well done. I haven't seen the new one, the new exorcist film that's in theaters now. I want to see it I've seen them all. In fact, we were were talking about I've had the the full collection. This used to be the definitive collection, but now they have the new movie. So yeah, they got pretty good. I mean, again, they're fanciful. They're exaggerations of the truth. But there is like bits and pieces of accuracy in there. And yeah, I liked them there. They're they're enjoyable movies to watch.

Nick VinZant 30:01

That's pretty much all the questions we got if I mean, what's kind of coming up next for you? How can people get a hold of you if they need help that kind of stuff?

Bryan D. Ouellette 30:10

Yeah, well, we have a website esoteric catholic.org, you can also just go directly to nickelodeon.org nic holean.org. They're both the same site, just different URLs to get you there. And there's a contact form there. There's a request and investigation form. There's a lot of information about the things that we do. One thing I always encourage people to do is to watch our podcast at vestiges after dark. It's every Tuesday when and season at 8pm. Eastern, you can just get there directly by going to youtube at Nickelodeon, again, Nic h o l e n, or just clicking on the links on the website on esoteric catholic.org. We're also it's a podcast so that if you want to see the video version, you can watch it on YouTube Live. If you want to listen to the podcast version, you can listen live on Spreaker. Or you can just wait until the show is finished. And then usually about a half hour later it shows up on all the platforms.

Nick VinZant 31:14

I want to thank Bishop well that so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on October 19 at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Have you ever seen or experienced something that you could not explain? No. Huh? There was a little bit of hesitation there.

John Shull 31:56

I mean, I had one experience when I was a teenager that I have no idea how it happens. But it happened, but I mean, it's it's not even a good story. Me and my friend. Were watching horror movies. At like, 3am I had a latch on my door as a kid. And the latch unlocked itself.

Nick VinZant 32:15

Oh, but did the door like move or anything like that?

John Shull 32:20

Yeah, the door kind of swung open a little bit. But you know, I mean, it's, I don't know, my window was open was kind of a windy night. Would it have been that windy to unlatch? A door? Probably not. But there has to be a reason because, you know, you're gonna I'm gonna go on a whole rant here. All I'm gonna say is Bigfoot isn't real. And probably neither are ghosts. I'm sorry to ruin everyone's Halloween.

Nick VinZant 32:47

Yeah, my thing with ghosts is if there was actually ghosts, I looked this up, right? I looked this up because I was bored one day, and I just was thinking about this, but I looked this up. There's been 128 billion people that they think have existed on Earth at one time. If there was actually ghosts, there will be so many ghosts. Like it wouldn't even be a question. If there were ghosts. there'd be so many of them. They'd be everywhere.

John Shull 33:13

Yes, first off, I agree 100% of that if there was a Sasquatch, if there was a Bigfoot, they would have been seen by now there would have been one documented case of these things actually being seen or found. Same with ghosts if there were really ghosts, there are really demons that can inhabit your brain. It would have been proven by now.

Nick VinZant 33:35

My only thing with that kind of stuff is you have to be either or like if you believe in this one thing you've got to believe in all of it. You got to believe in all the possibilities right? Like if you believe in ghosts then you got to believe and then you can't be there and be like well but demons that's it total BS. Like if you believe in one you've got to acknowledge the possibility of all of them.

John Shull 33:58

I mean, they usually kind of go hand in hand I think with you know if you believe in demons you believe in ghosts if you believe in the Megalodon you believe in the Loch Ness monster,

Nick VinZant 34:07

but do you have one out there conspiracy theory? Do you have one thing that like this is the only thing of that realm or ilk or whatever? That like, oh, I kind of I kind of think this might be true.

John Shull 34:19

Maybe Bigfoot because maybe it's just some deformed bear species that you know no one's ever been able to catch me. There's like six of them. And they just keep having Bigfoot babies. I don't know. Sasquatch like but once again I believe like you know like the dinosaurs right? There is at least existence like there's you know bones that they existed. That I mean there's nothing for any of these any of these. It's all folklore. It's a folklore. It's all Greek mythology. But modern day.

Nick VinZant 34:53

The only one that I kind of like oh, maybe would be the idea that we're living in a simulation. Because when I think wind I hear about like space and things like that. I'm like, no, no, the sun's not like 90. That's too big of a thing for me to even comprehend. In my mind, that would be the only reason I'd be like, if that turned out to be true. I don't think that I would be super shocked. I'd be like, you know, if I found that out after I died, I would be like, you know, I always kind of wondered,

John Shull 35:23

like, what if I'm an actor? What if you're an actor? What if our wives aren't even in love with us? What if they just play a role? And then like, you know, in 10 years, they're just gonna leave us and go be with their real families.

Nick VinZant 35:36

That would be kind of crazy. Actually, if you think about it, that like one day, people were just like, You know what, man, this is all fake. This was just a movie we were filming. We're out of here.

John Shull 35:46

Maybe our children aren't even ours. And like, you know, I don't who knows?

Nick VinZant 35:50

I just feel like if that was true, my life would be more dramatic. Like there's not I don't think that a reality TV show based around my life would be that interesting.

John Shull 36:01

Yeah, unless, like you're set up to fail, and you just keep continually choosing the right path.

Nick VinZant 36:06

Right? Like, it's a real slow burn that like one day, he's gonna get it wrong. And it turns out, this is the guy that like, dooms the human race, and we're just watching to see how it happens.

John Shull 36:17

Yeah, like, maybe you are maybe like the eye of the beholder. And for all, you know, like, You are the key to unlocking of a galaxy. And everyone's like, is this week, the week that he's finally going to eat peanut butter instead of rubbing it on his balls?

Nick VinZant 36:32

I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't know how to read and respond to that, because I was kind of like, not listening. And then the only last thing I got was peanut butter on his balls. And I was just like, I know, I don't know what to say,

John Shull 36:44

you need to become a better listener, you know that you're wanting to become a more you need to become a more astute play.

Nick VinZant 36:51

I'll be there in a minute. Now, what are we saying? I'm saying, I

John Shull 36:59

see, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Nick VinZant 37:01

D could you ever foresee a situation in which somehow in the annals of history, like the human race is doomed? And it all comes back to like it was turns out, it was John Shaw, who did it? Like they trace it back? And they're like, do you never feel like you can make one decision that could do in the human race?

John Shull 37:21

No, and I'm not even entirely sure that one person holds that power. And I'm not saying this to bring up terrible memories, because we know what's currently going on in the world. But there have been some really terrible human beings that have tried to plot things out to, you know, get rid of certain races of people. And even that has never worked. So I don't think that I'm going to be the one person that dooms humanity,

Nick VinZant 37:45

right, but it's always the bullet, you don't see common, right? You making a decision one day, and you set off a chain reaction, because you didn't check your blinker, your rearview mirror, and you cause this thing that causes the end of all of the Detroit.

John Shull 37:59

I mean, it would be kind of wild, like if I, you know, I'm driving and I accidentally sideswiped a van carrying a nuclear bomb that goes off, and then someone overseas thinks we're firing one, and then they fire one. And

Nick VinZant 38:11

that would be pretty, right. Like it could be the destruction of America could be potentially traced back to like one random person who made a mistake.

John Shull 38:20

I don't I don't really want to think about that. Because I want to be driving really cautiously. The next few days,

Nick VinZant 38:25

you could make a decision at any moment that could set off a domino effect that could doom the entire civilization.

John Shull 38:31

Well, I don't first of all, I don't think it's that dramatic.

Nick VinZant 38:34

I think it is, I think it could happen.

John Shull 38:37

No, I think you can have a series of events that can like ruin your world and other people's worlds, but I don't, I don't know that there's anything that I could be involved in that I could doom the human race with. So

Nick VinZant 38:47

we had somebody that was on here a little while ago, we had a space weather researcher, and they talked about the idea that there has to be people all over the place that closely monitor what is happening with the Sun and solar storms? Well, what if that person goes to the bathroom and like somebody else called out sick, and then in that 15 minutes, there's a solar storm that wipes out all technology on the face of the earth? Well, they didn't, because they weren't there to like shut down the equipment.

John Shull 39:13

There's always a backup to the backup, right? You can always mess up and pretty much any profession. And it's not the end of the world.

Nick VinZant 39:21

I'm as guilty as this as anybody. So when I say this, consider the fact that I include myself in this, there's one thing we can do, we can fuck something up. We can make a small mistake that will like cause all kinds of problems.

John Shull 39:36

I sure hope that whoever monitoring the sun right now is actually paying attention. Because that is kind of scary,

Nick VinZant 39:41

right? You look across you look across your screen one day, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait, hey, what's gonna take a shit like, Hey, Tim, watch this YouTube video. Oh, man. Right.

John Shull 39:54

Yeah, I mean, you say I mean yes. You say that way that that could be It can be kind of scary.

Nick VinZant 40:01

Yeah, think about it. Okay.

John Shull 40:03

Oh God, I don't think it'd be world ending but it would still be pretty disastrous right that

Nick VinZant 40:09

big rocks not gonna do anything that dinosaurs just a big just one big rock

John Shull 40:17

when you think there's just one rock, you think it was two rocks?

Nick VinZant 40:19

I think it was probably just one rock and roll.

John Shull 40:23

Well, that must have been a gigantic rock.

Nick VinZant 40:25

That was a huge rock that is surprising that how little we kind of know about that right? Like, wait a minute what happened? That's gonna happen. Anybody you never think like, oh, you never think that's gonna happen to the human race? Be like,

John Shull 40:38

oh, I mean, that's what's gonna happen. At some point, there's going to be some kind of, you know, world ending something event where there'll be an asteroid again,

Nick VinZant 40:47

eventually everybody dies. Alright, let's move on.

John Shull 40:49

Hold on, do you think you'll ever see that event in our lifetime where something resets the human race?

Nick VinZant 40:59

No, well, I've said this before. So I'll make this really quick. I do live in Seattle, which is supposed to be the next time there's a big earthquake here is supposed to be the largest natural disaster of all time. So that's basically forecast to happen kind of any day now within the next 50 years. It's like a real concern here. It's a real problem. I can see something that resets it like for my life, like you're going back to zero. But my thing is, the the problem that gets you is never the one that you see, see coming. The thing that you are worried about is never as bad as it seems. And the thing that you don't think is a big deal is always much worse than it is.

John Shull 41:39

All right. Let's move on to some shout outs now, shall we? Yeah. All right. Let's say we're gonna start with an easy one here, Greg book would Darrow Ron Keogh,

Nick VinZant 41:50

Darrell or Darrow? Darrell? Oh, Darrell.

John Shull 41:56

Andrew Kim, huh. Derek Reed. Doug Bruce two first names for a entire name.

Nick VinZant 42:06

Both both names that are similar. I put Doug and Bruce on the same tier level of names and the same type of guy could be named either Doug or Bruce.

John Shull 42:17

Okay, Cam Sutton Nima and a serie Michael Wilford. Trey sneers. And Derek, dealer. Congratulations,

Nick VinZant 42:29

then a lot of Derek's on a lot of Derek's on the shout outs lately. I think there's been too many Derrick's for how many Derek's exist in society.

John Shull 42:38

Well, we appreciate every Derrick every person. And you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna go off kilter for one second and say you know what, congratulations to you. Nick VinZant.

Nick VinZant 42:47

Congratulations to you. Do you want to tell the people?

John Shull 42:49

I mean, listen, we are I don't know how it happened. I've absolutely no idea. We actually won two different awards. We weren't last. Oh, and we got we got like an editor's choice award or something. A signal Award, which is a pretty prestigious podcasting award. So yeah, I mean, it's almost like winning an Emmy. Like we just won an Emmy for podcasting.

Nick VinZant 43:10

Yeah, to give the official title, I believe we were the signal Award winner for best interview podcast.

John Shull 43:18

Absolutely something that I have no part of, but you're kind of interviewing me now. So I'll count that it's because of me, I would

Nick VinZant 43:24

consider that to be an extenuation of the show, right? You know, what, if you play in the foot doesn't matter if you play in the game at all, you're still winning, right? You may not play in the first half, you may not play in the second half. But if you see the field that counts is a win for you.

John Shull 43:37

So congratulations, those those judges, I hope listen to the worst episode imaginable, but loved it still so good for them good on them.

Nick VinZant 43:45

Do you think it's because we're good, or because everybody else was that terrible,

John Shull 43:48

though? Oh, man. I mean, I want to say it's because we're, we're that you know, everyone else was terrible. But to our credit, we were I mean, we were in a stacked category with like, high profile names and podcasts. And we were still picked out and given an award. So maybe we are good. Maybe maybe we're better than we think. I don't know

Nick VinZant 44:10

if I was Jon Stewart, or the lady from Seinfeld, Julia Louis Dreyfus, I always forget her name until just now I would fire my staff. Be like these people these two. Imagine like your Kevin Hart, who's also somebody we beat out or Jon Stewart, who is also somebody we beat out. I imagine that they're like, I wonder what this is who puts this together? And they look it up and it's me and you? Like how pissed off would you be if you like, What the I lost to this? It would be like a professional basketball team losing to like the a high school team that has five people's five people in a city with 100 people.

John Shull 44:50

I mean, it really, I mean, this really is a one and a half person operation. I'm not gonna even count myself as a full person. And yeah, some of those podcasts have 20 people 30 Uh, yeah. So yeah, I don't know if I was Jon Stewart, Kevin Hart that next morning, my first question would be, well, well, how did they win? And then my, my third question would be maybe I should offer them jobs.

Nick VinZant 45:10

But it's not technically a question. Statement.

John Shull 45:15

Can we offer them jobs?

Nick VinZant 45:17

Should I offer them?

John Shull 45:20

Alright, let's do some I got some bangers for you. Boy, okay. Would you rather have no eyebrows? Or no nose?

Nick VinZant 45:32

Well, no, no, no eyebrows, I can just draw the eyebrows on. If you've got no nose, there's not like a lot that you can do with that. The nose is a very central feature to people's faces. Have you ever

John Shull 45:45

seen somebody with drawn on eyebrows? It doesn't look normal.

Nick VinZant 45:50

Yeah, but I mean, it doesn't look less normal than not having a nose.

John Shull 45:57

I just feel like you're under estimating what the eyebrows do for your, your expressions.

Nick VinZant 46:04

I think that you're under estimating what your nose does.

John Shull 46:08

I mean, I have a pretty good nose. I just glanced at looking at it in the camera.

Nick VinZant 46:13

I'd still go back to the thing about if I have big ears or not. I can never decide. Like, yeah,

John Shull 46:19

I've been told I have gigantic ears.

Nick VinZant 46:21

Oh, I thought you actually had little ears? I would say I would describe them as little ears. I would err.

John Shull 46:27

A gigantic head.

Nick VinZant 46:28

Ah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Throws it off.

John Shull 46:32

You know what they say about gigantic heads?

Nick VinZant 46:36

Takes a big hat. cover that up?

John Shull 46:38

Yeah, yeah, pretty much just need a big hat. All right. So that one didn't go as expected. Let's try this one. Okay, would you? What would you be more fearful of running out of gas in the desert at night? Or being stuck on the top floor of a building with no way down? Hmm.

Nick VinZant 47:02

Well, running out of the gas in the middle of desert, you could probably die. That can get you in a lot of trouble. I used to live in Arizona, I made the mistake one time of hiking and 110 degree heat. And by hiking I mean, basically just kind of like walking around in a small park that wasn't like really out in the wilderness. And I probably about 30 minutes into it like, Oh, this isn't normal. I wouldn't mess with the desert man. Don't mess with water, either too much of it or not enough of it.

John Shull 47:32

I mean, you know, I don't want to put Michigan back on the map here. But trust me, you're gonna, according to all the, you know, all the research apparently in Michigan is going to become the migration capital of the world when the earth starts officially heating up to the point of no return because we are just surrounded by bodies of water.

Nick VinZant 47:55

Well, that's what it's going to take to get anybody to live in Michigan. The end of the world is the only thing that will get people to come back to Detroit. That's just literally people are going to have to be like, do you want to? The only way I'm moving to Detroit is if it's the end of the world. It's the end of the world. Okay.

John Shull 48:13

As you're talking about a city that may be wrecked forever because of a you know, an earthquake.

Nick VinZant 48:19

Yeah, but people still want to live in Seattle. It's like it's got mountains in the ocean, man. It's not got like, like, what do you got to field there? I think in Detroit, you have like an empty parking lot that people can have fun in.

John Shull 48:32

We have a football team that is doing very well. Thank you very much. Okay.

Nick VinZant 48:35

Didn't give me an event that I could go back. Big money.

John Shull 48:43

Let's see here. Last one. Halloween. How much is too much to spend on a costume? Garbage? $50 or $100?

Nick VinZant 48:55

You're asking me dude. Okay, I'm one of the cheapest people I think that most people ever met, I would say that $10 Or you should be able to make a costume with what you have in your house. I have never really understood people who invested a lot of time and energy in costumes. That to me has always been like,

John Shull 49:15

you can even buy kid costumes for under $50.

Nick VinZant 49:19

I mean, we got one. It was like 10 bucks. It was a link costume of eBay. or Amazon or one of those things. I've just never I've never really gotten into like the whole that's just too much work for Halloween.

John Shull 49:33

hasn't arrived yet this link costume? Yeah,

Nick VinZant 49:36

actually, I think he got it for Christmas because he wanted that and then we just repurposed it. My other son is going to be a tiger and we're just going to paint his face. What was what was your What was your favorite costume? Halloween costume? Your rent?

John Shull 49:47

My favorite prom probably being the Pillsbury Doughboy. How old were you? Seven or eight. I don't even remember.

Nick VinZant 49:56

That's traumatizing. I feel like that shouldn't have neck. Somebody shouldn't have allowed that. that

John Shull 50:00

I actually kind of vetoed Halloween. I don't remember going out after that until I became like a teenager. Yeah, I do. And I could see why. Yeah, yeah, that was kind of terrifying.

Nick VinZant 50:10

Sucks to Ubu. I don't know if that lifts you up?

Unknown Speaker 50:16

No, of course, is

Nick VinZant 50:17

that not an uplifting statement sucks to be.

John Shull 50:21

It's how the simulation we're living in, of course.

Nick VinZant 50:25

But what if it's just like who's simulation? Do you think we would be in my simulation or yours simulation right now?

John Shull 50:33

Maybe yours? I don't know. That's a great question.

Nick VinZant 50:37

Yeah, probably mine.

John Shull 50:39

Maybe we're both in, in a simulation. And they're just combined together.

Nick VinZant 50:44

What if we're in pods right next to each other right now? Like, we're in the matrix, and we're just sitting next to each other.

John Shull 50:51

Oh, my God, right. Like, what if we never left Florida?

Nick VinZant 50:55

What if we're not even in Florida? What if we're in space? We're just floating around in space? Because the Earth is destroyed. And they gotta man. That's so crazy.

John Shull 51:07

Yeah, like, what have my back pain is really just like that thing being plugged into my back somewhere.

Nick VinZant 51:13

Okay, are you ready for a top five?

John Shull 51:16

I am. And this I don't know, people were very disappointed in us. From what I understood about our lack of being able to come up with this top five list last week when we were kind of putting each other on the spot, so intro it and then we'll get to it.

Nick VinZant 51:32

So our top five is top five celebrities named after animals or top five celebrities with animal names. However you want to put that together either way. What's your number five.

John Shull 51:44

My number five is going to be Larry Bird and Sue bird.

Nick VinZant 51:48

Hmm. Okay, I think that's pretty low for Larry Bird. I think that he needs to be a little bit higher up on that list. I'm not sure if if Sue board Sue bird may be a legend in her sport, but I don't think that she has the overall kind of notoriety for making it up that high. That's my personal opinion.

John Shull 52:06

I agree with you. But you know, at the same point, they're both basketball players. They're both Hall of Famers or I don't know if she is willing to be anything so yeah, but yeah, so I'm alright with that. Larry and Sue bird breaking down.

Nick VinZant 52:19

Tony Hawk. My number five is Tony Hawk.

John Shull 52:23

See I think that's too high on the list for for Tony Hawk. I think that he deserves a higher spot.

Nick VinZant 52:31

I think that you didn't fully think out the animal names thing. And there's going to be that your son that you're gonna be like, Oh, I forgot about that one. I didn't think of that one. Okay, what's your number for? Seal? Does anyone know his real name?

John Shull 52:51

No, I think that's part of it. I wonder what his real what is

Nick VinZant 52:55

his real name? That's one of the few people that you only know their first name seal. Prince. Madonna. I don't think Madonna is her real name. That's obviously not her real name. What is Madonna's real name? You look up seals. We'll name all look up Madonna's real name.

John Shull 53:13

Well, I picked the hard one because seal has six names. Oh god. Seal Henry. A Lowe's gun. All you might a Dola Samuel o seals. Full Name.

Nick VinZant 53:26

Madonna has four names Madonna. Luis Veronica. Silicone, a CIC? O n e sicne. She's Italian. Oh, all right. Bay City, Michigan. Where's that? Yeah. Do you even know? Yeah, it's

John Shull 53:42

about an hour and a half north of the metro Detroit. area.

Nick VinZant 53:47

Okay. Okay. My number four is a tie between Michael J. Fox and Jamie Foxx. I think that Michael J. Fox would have been the more famous of the two had his illness not happened. But now I think you got to put Michael J Fox and Jamie Foxx on the same level.

John Shull 54:05

You know, I I thought about putting at least Michael J. Fox, Jamie Foxx or you can make an argument 204 But I they just barely missed the cut for me for top five.

Nick VinZant 54:16

I'm gonna have to see what's on yours because that's a pretty I mean, my number three is Larry Bird.

John Shull 54:26

My number three is Snoop Dogg.

Nick VinZant 54:28

Oh, but not his real name, though.

John Shull 54:33

No, but I mean, I think it's fair enough. I mean, no one knows him. If you can't tell me his real name, then he goes by his stage name

Nick VinZant 54:42

Calvin Broadus. I didn't look that up, but I think that his real name is Calvin Broadus.

John Shull 54:47

Yeah, I know. He's, I mean less. I know. It's one of the more famous ones that we know, but I'm sticking with it. Snoop Dogg has my number three

Nick VinZant 54:54

it is Calvin Broadus Calvin core days or Broadus, Jr.

John Shull 55:00

All these long elongated names

Nick VinZant 55:03

that's the secret man, everybody you got to if you want to be a big I don't know, I agree with you on Snoop Dogg. I don't feel like that should quite count. That's my personal opinion. That was my number I again my number three is Larry Bird was number two.

John Shull 55:17

So my number two this workouts my number one is as unanimous I think you have the same number one as it were, you should. But my number two I have Tony Hawk is my number two. Okay.

Nick VinZant 55:28

I have Robin Williams. Okay,

John Shull 55:31

all right. I see I once again i It's tough for me and that number five spot. I was like, so many choices.

Nick VinZant 55:39

I don't know Robin Williams. I don't know how you leave Robin Williams off the list, honestly.

John Shull 55:44

Yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe pushing number one. My number one is Tiger Woods.

Nick VinZant 55:50

Yeah, Tiger Woods. I think Tiger Woods is the most famous person named after an animal. What

John Shull 55:56

I love is that we both had completely different two through fives. But it's like yeah, number one is unanimous.

Nick VinZant 56:02

Tiger Woods was probably one of the probably the most famous person in the world at one time. And he changed the game that he played in and even after how many years since he's been really really good. He's still a big draw. Like I'll watch a golf tournament because Tiger Woods is playing with no caring of what anything else like Go Tigers playing.

John Shull 56:26

Yeah, I mean for what he was able to do and the crowd he was able to draw like yeah, it's that's not even part of it. Just he has it's a cool name. His name is first name is Tiger. I mean, that's awesome.

Nick VinZant 56:37

Which is crazy because his first name and he's like his name is Tiger. But his other name is eldritch which is like the exact opposite, right? Like give him a cool name. And then a really dorky name. Watching your honorable mention I have so many good ones in my model. Honorable mention.

John Shull 56:54

You mentioned a few. So it's and you have a bunch of said to that I'll throw out there Raven Simone. Oh, that's a good one. I didn't think of that. And Bear Gryllus

Nick VinZant 57:06

I don't know who that is. I have heard that name. But I've never actually seen that person or anything that he's ever done.

John Shull 57:14

I mean, he's really famous as being an outdoorsman, and survivalist and all that. But, you know, if you don't watch a lot of cable TV, you probably wouldn't have access to him. I would imagine. I really thought his name was Bear Grylls appears real. Maybe it's grills. I'm pretty sure it's grill us though.

Nick VinZant 57:33

Okay, I'm going to start I'm going to you just tell me. No, I'm just gonna start saying I'm Lance Bass.

Unknown Speaker 57:41

Yeah, yes.

Nick VinZant 57:43

Continue on the fish theme, Mike Trout. Yep. Switching it up a little bit. John Cougar Mellencamp.

John Shull 57:53

Okay, all right. I like that. Yep. One you

Nick VinZant 57:56

may not think of but then once you realize you're like, Oh, yeah. Jay Leno.

John Shull 58:04

Okay, all right. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 58:05

Jay Leno is a good one, right. You don't necessarily

John Shull 58:09

associate the two but yeah, okay.

Nick VinZant 58:12

Wolf Blitzer.

John Shull 58:16

Oh, that's a good one. That is a good,

Nick VinZant 58:17

that's a good one to name I think what's real name? That takes balls, especially of all the guys like that's not a guy was Wolf, Isaac Blitzer. That's his real name. Wow. That takes some balls, especially he was born in 1948. So somebody in the 1950s was like that kid's name is Wolf.

John Shull 58:41

Which means Yeah, I mean, I had a couple more.

Nick VinZant 58:44

I'll go further. Oh, go for

John Shull 58:46

a baby. Megan Fox.

Nick VinZant 58:49

Yeah, not the same tear as any other foxes. But yes. Sheryl Crow. Oh, yeah. That's she she could make a run for it. She could make a run for it.

John Shull 59:01

In my personal favorites, Newt Gingrich.

Nick VinZant 59:05

Yeah. Yeah. Um, this one's older Florence Nightingale.

John Shull 59:12

Florence Nightingale, okay. Yeah. Yep.

Nick VinZant 59:15

I think he was a singer. He may was used as a singer or he was an actor, but Adam ain't.

John Shull 59:20

Yeah, at a man he wasn't. He wasn't

Nick VinZant 59:23

a singer. Oh, okay. That's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it doesn't have to be some big thing. Just a couple of quick words. And let us know who you think are some of the best celebrities with animal names. I think it's really hard to be Tiger Woods. I think he's a clear number one. Robin Williams can give him a run for the money. But after that, there's a lot of people that could go in that top five Live

Occult Historian Dr. Brian Regal

Witchcraft, Divination, Alchemy, Satanism, occult practices take many forms and historian Dr. Brian Regal studies them all. We talk the history of the occult, how occult practices have influenced different aspects of society and the real difference between the occult and religion. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Witches.

Brian Regal: 01:28

Pointless: 42:36

Top 5: 01:03:37

Contact the Show

Dr. Brian Regal Website

Dr. Brian Regal Twitter

Interview with Occult Historian Dr. Brian Regal

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode the occult, and witches,

Dr. Brian Regal 0:21

it can turn deadly. We have, we have a number of cases where, where young people get into this. And the next thing you know, they're out killing people, all of our modern cookbooks basically evolve out of these occult witches spell books, this has got to be part of a much wider conspiracy of people doing terrible things. And next thing you know, you have, you know, researchers, journalists, who are taking every single weird murder case, and looking at Oh, they were part of this grand conspiracy you,

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies the occult, its history, its influence and where it's going. This is a cult historian, Dr. Brian regal. What is the occult? Like what makes something of the occult versus not of the occult?

Dr. Brian Regal 1:33

Oh, well, that's not an easy question to answer. The word occult simply means hidden. Everybody thinks it has some sort of mystical, magical meaning to it, it just simply means something that's not hidden, or is hidden. If you consider religion and occult practice, then there's tons of it. But, you know, most religions have sort of aspects to them, belief systems to them, that we could call a cult, they, of course, would get very upset. If you say it's a cult, if I'm just if I just say, without any details. Here's an organization that venerates a dead person who was killed and came back to life. And then we venerate all these other people who died, and we can talk to them. And if you talk to them in just the right way, they will then go to the great deity, and will bring your ideas to the great deity. And everybody goes, Oh, yeah, okay, that sounds like the occult. And then I say, well, that's Christianity. Oh, no, that's not the occult, you know. So it all depends upon kind of our, our position here now, in the Americas and North America, you don't really get the embracing of this thing we vaguely call the occult, in a way that happens in other places. The thing the sort of occult practice, that catches on first, in what is then known as British North America, is astrology. Astrology comes over with those early settlers, early immigrants, one of the things that it gets involved in back in Europe is medical astrology. You go to a doctor, the first thing they ask you is what's your birthday. And then they cast your horoscope. And by casting your horoscope, this is a little convoluted, so you got to stick with me. By casting your horoscope they can figure out what's wrong with you, and how to fix it. And the fixing, didn't involve like blood transfusions or anything like that. It involves figuring out the right, Crystal talisman to give you to where, because illness was seen as something that came from the spheres that is outside the earth. And these emanations came down and came down to the earth and got into you got into me gets into everybody. And if you get bad emanations, that's what makes you sick. So the medical astrologer would try to figure out, you know, what's your star sign, all that sort of thing. And you you sort of do this sort of algorithm, as it were, and you come up with being okay, you should be carrying a piece of turquoise. And that would theoretically at least, prevent the bad emanations from reaching you. So you could block the bad emanations through the use of astrology. And conversely, you could bring in the good emanations to make you healthy and keep you healthy. And so that sort of thing continues to this day. I mean, The crystal healing is still a thing.

Nick VinZant 5:02

What would you say kind of so okay so we have astrology What would you say is kind of the next biggest occult practice or idea or whatever you want to call it that kind of comes into society.

Dr. Brian Regal 5:14

I would argue that that spiritualism, spiritualism, hits here in the US, the US by now in the 1840s. In Hyattsville, New York, we can actually find a spot. This is where it begins. And with the fox family, the fox sisters, there's three flock sisters, and they live in this tiny little house. Hyattsville, New York, upstate New York. And the sisters kind of little house with like, one main floor, Ridge, the big room, and then like an attic space, and the sisters live in the attic space. And the dad starts getting upset, because in the middle of the night, he starts hearing these sort of, like knocking on wood sounds. And he climbs up the ladder and he looks and they're asleep. So it goes back down next night. Knocking wood sounds clients back what was going on? Nothing. So finally he confronts his his daughters. Why are you making those banging sounds and now you're keeping me and your mother up? We're not doing that. That's been done by Mr. Split foot. And so it turns out that they think they have contacted a spirit. Now, who might miss their split foot be? Have no idea? The devil the devil,

Nick VinZant 6:51

or the guy that the clove and who's the COVID? Who

Dr. Brian Regal 6:56

people start freaking out because you know, these wacky Hyde sisters, they're talking to the devil? Because eventually what happens is they say, Well, Mr. Split foot talks to us by making rapping sounds, and we figured out how to make rapping sounds back to speak to him. And this spreads like wildfire. local pastor comes over, you know, at the, the the fox house is haunted. But they start getting followers, and people start saying, wait a minute, if you can do this, can you teach me how to do it? I want to contact my dead relatives. And so they start so yeah, okay, well, you just do this, and you do that. And you, you work out a code system, and you can talk to your dead relatives. And it becomes hugely popular. And eventually, years later, the fox sisters will admit that they were just making the whole thing up, you know, they weren't actually talking to a spirit but by then it doesn't matter. The genies out of the bottle. This becomes a huge thing. It's very popular throughout America, and you even get practitioners mediums that tour, they actually go on like a rock and roll band touring. And so these, these traveling, seance people mediums start making tons of money. There's an example a woman named chorus, Scott, chorus got hatch, very attractive, very cuddly, and she starts doing this and she is usually popular, because you take this ability to talk to spirits and stick it in a hot baby. And you know, all bets are off. You have this spread of spiritualism and one of the things that comes out of that is the Ouija board. astrologist kind of astrology and spiritualism. They're so the high end occult practices. But then you have a lot of these little people running around. Individual people who never get famous, we never know who they are. But they're running around doing occult things, in particular stuff like divination and dowsing. Dowsing is another very popular in URL in colonial America or early America. Dowsing is this idea. That if you are if you as an individual, if you are attuned to the spirit world, you can take a stick. And if you hold in just the right way, and you walk around, you can find water. You have witchcraft, which also was extremely difficult to define. You have witches you don't have huge numbers of witches like supposedly there were in Europe. We do have to The infamous witch trials the witch craze of the 1700s going on around Boston. But the issue there is, as far as we know, none of the people who were put on trial for witchcraft were actually witches.

Nick VinZant 10:15

They weren't witches in the sense that like, No, they weren't witches, or like they weren't even claiming to be witches,

Dr. Brian Regal 10:20

right? They weren't even claiming. So any sort of folk medicine, folk practice was automatically labeled witchcraft. So if you again, remember that this is a time in American history where people don't live in cities, there's very few doctors around there are certain medical schools in the US at this time. So if you wanted to really become a doctor, go to medical school, you had to go overseas. So most, most doctors in North America were self taught women, mostly because this, this seems to have been mostly a women's profession, if you will. And they start writing this stuff down. And so they start creating what we call today spell books. Back then, they were called grim law, you have to say, with an outrageous French accent. And this, these books, they would write stuff down, and does it take care of this? Oh, and this is how you make a really delicious cake. And so you start to get these spellbooks that are part of a cult, medicine, part, astrology, part cookbook, all of our modern cookbooks basically evolve out of these occult witches spell books. And we don't think of a cookbook today as a, you know, as some sort of sorcery. But that's where it all comes from. And so it's, it's in that way, that occult practice spreads throughout US culture. But the witch trials that in the 1790s in Boston are not really I'm sorry, 1760s are not really about witches. It's about stealing land. Because if you don't like your neighbor, right, and your neighbor has a nice piece of land, and you want to buy it and your neighbor won't sell it to you, all you got to do is go to the authorities and say my neighbor is a witch, I've seen them flying around on a broom, they get arrested, they get put in jail, they get put on trial. And even if they don't get executed by the state, by the time they come back, you have bought their land. So by making accusations you get it's it's no different today. Then accusing someone of being woke. It's not about the stuff. It's about labeling someone you don't like as a bad person. But luckily, the Witch craze here in America doesn't really reach the kind of homicidal genocidal levels it does in Europe. Hundreds of 1000s of people are executed in Europe for being witches and werewolves to most people don't realize there were actually werewolf trials, in in medieval and early modern Europe now jumped forward. Throughout most of the 19th century, a coats, buckle practices were done very privately, but into the 20th century, specially post World War Two, you start to get a kind of resurgence. Particularly in California, you have Anton LaVey, who is the guy who creates the the Church of Satan, the modern church of Satan. And he's a great self promoter. And he's in California. And this is the 1960s. And he had the love movement. And people are running around they want to they want to experiment with new things. Drug use is on the rise. And so he starts this thing that becomes very popular because people think, Oh, absolutely. This is a way I can show rebellion. I'll be a Satan worshiper. The problem is Anton LaVey and his people, they don't really think Satan is real. To them, Satan or the Devil, whatever you want to call is a metaphor for rebellion against conformity as a way of expanding your consciousness. But people who don't understand that they think they're really actually

Nick VinZant 14:46

worshipping Satan

Dr. Brian Regal 14:47

worshipping the devil. What what most people today most people what they think is the occult isn't really they've gained most of most of our modern understanding or thought to be understanding of occult practices of witchcraft. devil worship is all from the movies.

Nick VinZant 15:11

Yeah, that's what kind of the impression that I got right was a lot of this stuff is more a creation of the media than what is actually being practiced. Right? Of course. What What would you say that occultism kind of in practice, like, what does that look like today?

Dr. Brian Regal 15:27

Well, it doesn't really look like most people think it does. They're not not sacrificing virgins on an altar, you know, in some hidden dungeon, the vast majority of occult practitioners today you wouldn't even recognize them, because they're, they look like everybody else. There's a lot of spirit belief that you can achieve a kind of oneness with the universe by by chanting certain prayers. And again, the the, the crystal healing thing is is a major holdover from those early days. And so that's why if you go into you know, a witch store, what do they sell and mostly in the in the window crystals, because it's still believed that the crystal can be something to sort of focus energy, pulling the good emanations chase the bad emanations away. Today's modern occult practitioners don't really fit the stereotype, the movie TV stereotype, and anybody who does is faking?

Nick VinZant 16:41

Yeah, they're they're putting on an act, right? Like it's more for the attention aspect,

Dr. Brian Regal 16:45

right? That's why you get these groups. You know, they're usually teenagers who start to you know, oh, we're going to become Satan worshipers and we found an old house somewhere in the woods, and we're gonna go in there, we're gonna paint pentagrams on the wall and do all this stuff. And it's about self empowerment. The people who often do that fake sort of Satanists witchcraft stuff. They're people who feel they have no power in the world. How do I get it? If I be if I worship Satan, I can get power. If I become a witch, I can get power. Real, real witches. Don't do that. You know, because that's not what they're about. And the problem with that is unfortunately, like, we can sit here and sort of laugh at it a little bit. Oh, Satan worship or, you know, tell Satan, I said, Hi. And next time you're talking to him, it can turn deadly. We have we have a number of cases where, where young people get into this. And the next thing, you know, they're out killing people. Because well, Satan wanted me to do this. If you remember, some years ago, there was the infamous Son of Sam. Yeah, yeah, New York. And they caught the catch the guy and you know, I was talking to a dog. And you know, I'm a Satanist. And we're doing all this stuff. It turns out, and people looked at this list, and oh, my God, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are these satanic groups. We even call it the Satanic Panic. It happens here in America, and it happens in England as well. This has got to be part of a much wider conspiracy of people doing terrible things. And next thing you know, you have, you know, researchers, journalists, who are taking every single weird murder case, and looking at Oh, they were part of this grand conspiracy, you know, Charles Manson is part of his thing. And you know, every every weird, disturbing murder they could find, they somehow hook it up to this.

Nick VinZant 18:52

Why do you think though that some things right, okay, even if it kind of sounds like a very similar thing between the occult and religion, why does some things get classified as the cult and some things get classified as religion?

Dr. Brian Regal 19:05

Because we do religion, you do the occult.

Nick VinZant 19:10

It's that simple, right? It's not who's doing it. It's not what they're doing. It's who's doing it.

Dr. Brian Regal 19:14

If we do it, it's okay. If they do it, it's wrong.

Nick VinZant 19:19

Is there any kind of fundamental difference? They would say, okay, these two things seemed the same on the surface. But underneath there's there is something that people just feel differently about,

Dr. Brian Regal 19:30

you know, I, I'm a historian, I'm not a psychologist, so I don't really have the, the training or the skills to really explain that, but take any religion. Take the names off of it. And just say, here's the fundamental structure of what this religion does. And compare it to, you know, compare them. You can't tell the difference between you know, even a main Stream religion and, and the occult practice, witchcraft practice. It's all fundamentally the same. The practitioners are trying to gain some connection to the divine. One of the things you notice about religions in general, whether it's the Western Abrahamic religions, you know, Judaism, Christianity, or, or Islam, or or Eastern religions, like Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Shinto ism, or Jainism, it's all about knowing that we humans are until we meet real space aliens, and we haven't yet. Sorry, I had to break that to you. But there's no evidence space aliens have ever come here. That doesn't mean they're not out there, they just haven't come here. Until we find out that there are really space aliens, where it and we are we humans, we are the worst creatures in the universe. And when we're not doing horrible things, we're trying to figure out how to clean ourselves up so that we can contact the divine. That's what most religions are about. That's what witchcraft is about. And, you know, we want to somehow shed this horrible, awful mortal live life of ours, and find something better in the spirit world and heaven in Nirvana. You know, wherever, wherever you think the place to be is. That's what we're trying to do. And they all basically take the same approach, clean yourself up, get right with the spirit world, and you get to go to heaven or whatever.

Nick VinZant 21:46

There is, I think it would be really difficult to explain to somebody what, like, what's the difference between a spell and a prayer? Right? I guess is it more based on right? Like, I always kind of go back to the metaphor of high school, right? Like the cool kids in high school are religious, and the weird kids are a cold. There you go. Is it that simple?

Dr. Brian Regal 22:08

I think it is, you know, it's that stupidly, idiotically simple.

Nick VinZant 22:13

If one is the lowest and 10 is the highest. What do you think is like the influence of the occult on American society? Like, where would you put it on that scale?

Dr. Brian Regal 22:25

I'd say five or six.

Nick VinZant 22:27

Is there any evidence, though, that following the occult path, takes people to a place that following the religious path does not? I don't think so. I would say mainstream religions, at least like I was raised in a mainstream religion, but there's a hope there. Is there the same kind of hope in occult practices?

Dr. Brian Regal 22:48

Yeah, I think there is. That's why they do it.

Nick VinZant 22:51

It really isn't any different than I don't

Dr. Brian Regal 22:55

I don't think so. I mean, there's probably a lot of very devout religions, listening to them right now screaming at me, on on their computer, but I I study this stuff for a living. And I teach this stuff for a living. And, again, I would love to be able to say, Look, don't worry, when no matter what happens in this life, when you die, if you've been a good person, you'll get to go to this nice place. Or you'll see these people that in your life that you've loved, that you've lost, you'll be able to see them again. I have no evidence that that happens. I wish it did. I would be so happy. If when I die, I open my eyes. And there's all these people I would love for that to happen. The spiritual is cold, it's summer land. That's where all the spirits were. And you could go to summer land. Because it was always nice. The weather was always nice. Everybody was dressed in like bitch and Victorian outfits, you know. And you could speak to Ben Franklin, or you could speak to George Washington. Or you could speak to Siddhartha, or you could meet Jesus. And you you'd have these sort of endless Garden Parties, where you could say the weather was always wonderful, and everybody's in great outfits. It would be great that that was a real thing. I just don't think I just don't think there is.

Nick VinZant 24:36

I hope that's what I would hope right? Like if something happens, and whatever it is, is like, I just hope whoever's like, you want to go again. Like yeah, go again.

Dr. Brian Regal 24:45

Try it. Well, you know, Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation. Yeah. Because they believe that you are so awful. You are so you're such a filthy human being that you can't clean yourself up and just one Lifetime. Why don't we so you need multiple lifetimes. The western Abrahamic religion in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, their thinking is very linear, you have a beginning, a middle and an end. And that's it. If you can find that you get one shot at finding salvation, if you don't get it, you're done. But many polytheistic religions like Hinduism or Buddhism, they recognize that human beings are awful. And you can't achieve this thing in one lifetime. So you get a bunch of goes at it.

Nick VinZant 25:38

What's what's the reason, though, that we always have to be awful? Like, are there any occult practices or like, you know what, maybe we're not that bad?

Dr. Brian Regal 25:45

Well, that's, you know, that's a great philosophical issue. I can use the example in, in, in the Western experience, we have this thing that we call the enlightenment, this period, sort of like the middle of the 1600s, through about, you know, 1800 or so. And you get all these famous philosophers. Well, those guys, they make your read in, you know, in intro to philosophy in college. And you have these two guys, you have John Locke, and you have Thomas Hobbes. And they're often held up as kind of the poster children for this question. Locke said, human beings are born basically good. And if people are left to them their own devices, they will behave well. Hobbes said, No, people are basically awful. And they will stab you shoot you, Rob, they will kill their mothers for 50 cents. And so Locke said, well, we should have less government because people are adult enough to live their lives in a decent way. And POB said, No, we have to have a leviathan, a huge government, that forces you to be good with the threat of punishment, whether it's, you know, ball, or Santa Lucia, and they will, they will sort of fix me, you know, they'll take my, my problems to a sort of a higher authority, and then everything will get, I don't see a difference between that the idea is the same, the end game is the same.

Nick VinZant 27:34

Why do you think then some people have such a harsh reaction to it, right? Like, you're doing what, you know, they get the right, like, Why do you think that there's such a reaction, even though these two concepts may be pretty similar?

Dr. Brian Regal 27:47

Because what I do is okay, what you do is wrong.

Nick VinZant 27:51

Kind of looking back at some of the more like, I guess, historical or societal, or whatever kind of definitions you want to give on that one? Like, are there some occult ideas that have kind of crept into the mainstream? Like you would say, like, oh, that's kind of an occult idea that is now more in the mainstream society?

Dr. Brian Regal 28:09

Well, astrology is that easy example that spirit mediums are still everywhere, you know, you can go to you can go to a spirit medium and they'll they'll cast your horoscope and has it

Nick VinZant 28:20

has it crept into like government at all?

Dr. Brian Regal 28:22

Well, Ronald Reagan had a personal astrologer

Nick VinZant 28:27

Yeah, that's pretty high up there. Right. When you got the President of the United States, okay, much

Dr. Brian Regal 28:30

higher than President United States. And so if the president can can believe in this, I'm willing to bet I don't have any evidence. I can't say a name. Only because I don't know. But I would not be surprised if we find out that there's there's a number of current elected officials in our government who believe this stuff is real.

Nick VinZant 28:53

Um, do you have some time for some listeners submitted questions? Sure, most unique occult concept like oh, that's an occult practice that is pretty different from anything else.

Dr. Brian Regal 29:05

I can't think of anything that's like really, you know, this the mainstream of Wicca let's say they do this. And then you have this Oh, off shoe that does something very different. I can't think of anything like that.

Nick VinZant 29:19

Is there anything even kind of close to like, Oh, that's a little different.

Dr. Brian Regal 29:22

Yeah. And, and like I said before, most most practices that that the average person thinks, oh, that's a witchcraft thing, or that's a Satan thing or whatever. aren't really a thing. Because it comes out of there. They're all ideas invented for movies and TV.

Nick VinZant 29:41

That leads us into the next question like movie with the best description the best movie or TV show with the best depiction of the occult movie or TV show with the worst depiction.

Dr. Brian Regal 29:53

You I might fall back on an old faithful and mentioned the exorcist but you That's not I'm not sure if that's really a cult movie, as it were. Because Kath, the Catholic Church believes that people can get taken over by evil spirits. But I don't think there's really, maybe the viewers would know this better, I don't think is really a movie or TV show that that a practicing witch would look at and say, Wow, that's really like what I do. And I think that's because the reality is most witchcraft is kind of boring.

Nick VinZant 30:34

This one just I don't know if this is a thing, like, it just says, what's up with the dollar bill? I hate this question. And I hate this question. It's

Dr. Brian Regal 30:49

I, you know, it makes me crazy. The minute I hear the name, Freemason, or Illuminati, I just want to kill the person who's asking me the question. Oh, man, Founding Fathers man. They were all Masons man, they were in the Illuminati man knew him out, he controls the world. The reason why this is a pet peeve, for me, the reason why Ben Franklin and George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and all those guys, the guys are called founding fathers. The reason they were Freemasons is because when modern Masonry is put together, because people always try to connect this somehow to ancient Egypt. But modern masonry begins, as a way, a reaction against monarchy, and against government repression. Because remember, until the US is created, every country in the world is some kind of monarchy. And the people who start Freemasonry are the Illuminati. And the reason why they start as secret societies, is because if, let's say if you're in early modern France, and you have a monarchy, that is using the police using the military to crack down on anybody who gets even a whiff of anti monarchy, they send the troops in. So you're not going to want to discuss this stuff out in the open. You want to discuss it with like minded people who you know, won't rat you out to the authorities. And so both the Masons and the Illuminati start as he's kind of pro democracy, pro freedom organizations, that we will, we have to keep it secret. But while it's similar, we're going to work to try to put together political structures that will help us get rid of the monarchy and, and bring in freedom and democracy and all those things we like. That's why the that's why the the founding fathers are all into this, because what's the revolute American Revolution is all about is about kicking out the the British Empire kicking out the monarchy. And so you wouldn't say that out loud in the open, because you would never know who's listening. And so they create these things as, as secret societies, and the dollar bill. The dollar, the dollar bill we know and love today is a modern institution. It's basically a 20th century invention. And so you have all these people running around, who want to tell you about, oh, man, there's all this stuff. It's secret coded stuff and the dollar bill, man, you know, if you've, if you fold $1 bill up just the right way, you know, it's show Solomon's temple, and that's where the Ark of the Covenant was. And it makes you crazy, because it's all nonsense.

Nick VinZant 34:08

That's exactly what the Illuminati wants you to think, though, isn't it?

Dr. Brian Regal 34:13

Your crafted dude.

Nick VinZant 34:15

can't fool me.

Dr. Brian Regal 34:17

I'm no sheeple.

Nick VinZant 34:19

It's kind of the last question we got. But basically, like, where do you think that the occult goes from here? Does it fundamentally change? Does it like start incorporating robots and AI? Or is it same? Same thing?

Dr. Brian Regal 34:34

I don't know. There's there's a in my late partner, she was also a historian. Her area of of especially was the history of robotics. And within the world of robotics, there's this concept of the singularity. And the singularity is the idea that technology will the way technology is progressing. It will get to a point in the not that distant future where we can take depending upon who you who you talk to about this, take your brain and stick in a robot. And so, you the, you know, who you are as an individual as a person will be in this machine. And so the machine will last. And if the machine breaks down, it can change parts and things. But humans and machines will essentially kind of merge together. And there are some roboticists who think this is a real thing, or can be a real thing. There are some who say, No, that's crazy, you know, you're never going to really be able to do that. But that might that might be the the next phase of it

Nick VinZant 35:53

is the practice of the call, would you say that is more popular now than it has been in years past? Going up Going down staying the same?

Dr. Brian Regal 36:02

It's probably staying the same. You know, it's, it's sort of has a level, sometimes it goes up a little bit, sometimes it goes down a little bit. And I like, oh, oh, no, I was just gonna say, you know, I know, I'm not an occult practitioner. I'm not a witch. I'm not a sorcerer, of any kind. But I've known and still know, some people who actively engage in this in this behavior. And of all the people I know, then the nicest,

Nick VinZant 36:33

at what time period? Would you say that the occult was biggest. And like, countries where it is the biggest, since the

Dr. Brian Regal 36:43

fall of communism, for example, I think sort of a cult ideas are seeing a little bit of a resurgence in, in Russia in some of the Slavic countries. In Africa, there has there's been this kind of surge throughout the 20th century, and unfortunately, has taken on some really awful aspects. Several years ago, there were a series of murders in Africa of albino people. Because the idea of spread that albino people are somehow, you know, wizards and sorcerers. And so these poor people are, you know, be chased around hacked to death, because of some idiotic belief system that isn't, you know, meat, that doesn't mean anything. And so there are places like that around. I think, probably that kind of stuff currently sees most of its popularity in Africa. And, you know, it's like the teenagers getting into Satanism. They have no power. They've been, you know, spit on their whole lives. Here's a way I can gain some little bit of power for myself. And I think that's a similar thing going on, in places in Africa and not everywhere. But there are these kind of pockets. Where people have come to believe these these things that, you know, okay, if you believe in Bigfoot, I don't believe in Bigfoot. I wrote a book about Bigfoot. There's no Bigfoot. But if you believe in Bigfoot, so what, you know, it's not the end of the world. But there are some of these practices, some of these occult practices that that lead to violence lead to homicide. In no greater numbers, no greater numbers than Christianity does, or Islam does, or, or Hinduism does. But we tend to focus on you know, the when when a guy walks into a Burger King, and shoots every buddy with a machine gun and says, Jesus told me to do this. That's horrible. And it's awful. But if somebody walked in and did the same thing said, The devil made me do this. I'm a Satan worshiper, that's gonna get all the headlines.

Nick VinZant 39:05

Um, is there anything that we kind of think that we missed, or what's kind of coming up next for you, if people want to learn more, more?

Dr. Brian Regal 39:12

Well, you can go to my my web page. Just google my name, you'll get my Kane University webpage. You can see the classes I teach. You can see the books I've written the book that I just had come out is about myths and legends about who, you know, really discovered America. And there's a lot of wacky occult stuff in there. And, you know, I've written books on Bigfoot and on the Jersey Devil, and the Cyclopedia of pseudoscience has got a lot of occult stuff in it. And you can read my I've done over the years, I've done a bunch of Op Ed pieces on various different topics, too. and articles that you can download for free. There's an article in there that I wrote a few years ago about werewolves, which cause the, the werewolf community of Brooklyn to threaten me.

Nick VinZant 40:10

You got to watch it like even if it's,

Dr. Brian Regal 40:14

that give you a little insight view of my life.

Nick VinZant 40:18

Wait, what's the occult thing about who discovered America?

Dr. Brian Regal 40:22

There are people who believe that that witches came to America before Columbus, that ancient Greek code practitioners found their way here. It all before Columbus is, these are all stories about people came to America before Columbus, and Carthaginians who came to Oklahoma, you know, and that there's there's evidence there and that Vikings came here, not the Vikings that we know came here because there were Vikings who did come here, up in Nova Scotia. But there are sort of the other Viking belief system about Leif Erickson and his homicidal sister fritas. Who goes around hacking people up with an axe and you know, so there's there's some interesting stuff there. Columbus even said he saw manatees that's that talked Leif Erickson said he's, there are these creatures at of of European tradition, called the skip ODI. These are people with one giant foot as a two little feet in one huge and they hop around on ones. And Leif Erickson. According to the Finland sagas, he saw one of these things hopping around, you know, New England somewhere. And so, you know, it's, it's my, the focus of my work is on the relationship between amateur speculators and professional scholars. And so there's tons of that in the discovery American discovery myths.

Nick VinZant 42:10

I want to thank Dr. Regal, so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram, and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on October 12, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. So if you had your wish, like what do you hope happens after you die?

John Shull 42:45

Oh, I mean, what I want to have happen is everything that I didn't have in reality I would want in the afterlife. That's it. That's it. I mean, yeah. I mean, I mean, I'd have to see what's happening. Like if I died, right, like, I wouldn't want to make that determination. Until I found out what the afterlife was going to be like. It is, you know, it is scary to think about though, however. Like, what if you do pass on? And it's just your soul? Like, that's it like you're not even you? You're just like this floating ball of you. Like, it's kind of it is kind of interesting to think about what really happens when you do pass on.

Nick VinZant 43:29

What if you're just stuck in the coffin forever? Heavy, terrible, man. That'd be the worst.

John Shull 43:36

Yeah, I mean, obviously, eventually you Well, I guess if you're already dead, then you're just no, that sounds terrible.

Nick VinZant 43:43

That's that'd be the worst thing. Right? That would be the worst thing just to be there forever.

John Shull 43:49

Yeah, I forever for whatever reason, I just immediately started just wanting to eat fruit now, and go work out tonight. So thank you, you gotta

Nick VinZant 43:57

delay that as long as possible.

John Shull 44:00

Right, but, but I'm also you know, I tried to be a realist and there probably isn't anything. When you pass on right? There's probably not a whole lot. But what what does happen? That's it is a it's an incredible question. But I, I just I fail to see the light, so to speak. I don't know if there is something beyond just death.

Nick VinZant 44:24

The only thing that I would really want besides like, the ability to see my friends and family again, I would like like a review of my life. Like, oh, if you would have made this decision here, you could have done this. Or if you would have made this decision here. You would have been here like a post mortem of my own life where we just go over like all of the different things that could have happened to me.

John Shull 44:48

I mean, it's I guess it all goes into the Do you believe in? Is fate real? Is there a predetermined order of your life before you even get out of The vagina?

Nick VinZant 45:01

I think so in the sense that you're much of your life is predetermined by your genetics and where you are born. I think that there's fate in that sense, you're really kind of not changing that, right? Like, you and I are never going to be pro basketball players.

John Shull 45:16

Yeah, man. It's, I mean, listen, we don't we don't usually go down this path very often with, you know, life and things. But it is interesting to think I, I don't know, if you have everything when you're born, I feel the same way you do that I think you're born into it. But I don't think you're born with an already predetermined, you know, disposition, I guess.

Nick VinZant 45:40

I kind of think that you are, I kind of think that you're born in a general direction. And then maybe you can make some choices that can change that. But I don't think that people for the most part, are really super responsible for either their success or their failure, that you are always kind of gonna be in that one place. And maybe a twist of fate or a twist of luck. Got You Here and got you there. But for the most part, I think that most of the formative decisions of your life are pretty much all decided by your genetics at birth in your environment at home.

John Shull 46:18

Well, I mean, like, like us meeting, if I never took the job if you never took the job. What if we had just stayed in our hometowns? There would have never been Nick and John, can you imagine that the world would have been left without r us as a team,

Nick VinZant 46:33

there would be at least five people who would be disappointed by that.

John Shull 46:39

Everyone who voted for the signal awards, there had to be at least

Nick VinZant 46:42

five of them. We didn't get last. I know that we didn't get last, which is a major achievement, considering that we're up against like Kevin Hart, and the lady from Seinfeld, and somebody on Netflix. And Jon Stewart, like I when I was when I saw that we didn't get last in voting. I was shocked.

John Shull 46:59

I actually think the last I checked, we were actually tied for second to last. We weren't even like second to last alone. Oh, so we

Nick VinZant 47:07

could have been as high as third from the bottom.

John Shull 47:10

Yeah, technically, we were because there was a podcast below us. And then we were tied with another podcast for you know, whatever that position you want to call it.

Nick VinZant 47:20

So out of six, so we could have been third out of six. That's not that bad.

John Shull 47:25

Not that bad. Especially when, how many votes were casted, like, 200,000?

Nick VinZant 47:32

I don't think it was all in our category. I mean, if then we're

John Shull 47:36

going, we're going that we're going 200,000

Nick VinZant 47:39

Okay, all right. Well, then probably anybody who voted for us was probably thinking of something else. Or they were just ironic voting which will take Yeah, I'll take that nice, big deep sigh out.

John Shull 47:51

Yeah, you got to breathe. You know, I'm learning that as you get older, you got to breathe.

Nick VinZant 47:55

How long? How long do you think you could hold your breath?

John Shull 48:00

Like if I if I'm trying to, like, challenge myself,

Nick VinZant 48:04

try it right now at all time it

John Shull 48:08

okay, I mean, well, I got I gotta, I gotta get a good breath in. So okay, go

Nick VinZant 48:15

pinch your nose. No breathing out of your nose. Don't like hurts yourself. Like go until you kind of start to lose your breath. Because we don't have that much time. I've already forgotten 20 seconds. You. This 20 seconds

John Shull 48:34

made me laugh? No. I mean, I challenged myself before just randomly. I've done a minute. I think the most I've ever done is a minute. 15 dry. So

Nick VinZant 48:42

wait a minute, how old are you?

John Shull 48:45

And this is what this is. sometime within the pandemic. I don't remember exactly when but

Nick VinZant 48:49

were you around other people? Or were you just like one day? I'm going to see how long

John Shull 48:54

story but I don't really want to tell where I was in why I did it.

Nick VinZant 49:00

Why not? What were you doing? Cuz it's

John Shull 49:03

lame. And it's not that great. It's actually kind of pathetic. Okay,

Nick VinZant 49:07

well then go ahead and tell us.

John Shull 49:10

I was laying in bed. And I was trying to fall asleep. And I was like, I was like, Man, I'll try. I don't know if people count sheet. Maybe I'll see. You know, maybe the less oxygen to my brain will cause me to go to sleep. I don't know. So

Nick VinZant 49:27

you timed it though?

John Shull 49:28

I did. Yeah. Yep.

Nick VinZant 49:31

Did you fall asleep afterwards? Did it work?

John Shull 49:33

I mean, I'm guessing because I yeah, I mean, I woke up the next morning. I do find it you know, speaking of that, I do find it interesting that your body is so reactive and smart that it will not let you you know choke yourself out or like not breathe like it will eventually your body will force you to breathe.

Nick VinZant 49:55

Yeah, I mean if he does that what happened to you?

John Shull 49:59

Know, and I I think I know where you might be going with this. And no, it was not a fixation erotica or whatever. That's not where I

Nick VinZant 50:05

was going at all. But apparently you've been down that road before. No, I would turn trip.

John Shull 50:12

First off, I've actually had this conversation before. And I mean, you better get a big ol knot, and a very sturdy doorframe to hold me up because I'm taking whatever down and listen, I'm not making fun of people who have died that way. I've that's unfortunate, but I'm just saying, as a joke to myself that I better be a pretty sturdy something where I'm taking the whole wall down.

Nick VinZant 50:32

Yeah, you're not going to do it on a clothes rack. It's got to be like an IV

John Shull 50:36

clothes, right.

Nick VinZant 50:38

It's got to be structured. It's got to be structural.

John Shull 50:40

I will. I will. I will say this. I did feel a little better about myself. Just this past weekend. We had a birthday party for my oldest daughter, she turned five. And we had like a huge bounce house. And I got in the bounce house and I could actually bouncing it. So

Nick VinZant 50:55

man, did you launch somebody?

John Shull 50:59

I did Technically, yes. But I more or less through them. Because I've learned this. This was our first like big birthday party. We had like 30 kids at my house. And once they once they get one parent in the bouncy house that's in I became the bouncy house parent. So this one little kid he kept like getting on me is shocked them

Nick VinZant 51:22

out of it. He threw a child out of the bounce house.

John Shull 51:25

I did don't come into my bones Hans kid.

Nick VinZant 51:27

Don't. Yeah. My dad has been my father has been known to throw children. He's thrown multiple children, which is an odd thing. Not even including me. Like other relatives. I've seen him throw them at a doctor too. Yeah, I guess he knows they're gonna be okay when they land. Right. That'd be all right.

John Shull 51:46

All right, let's give some shout outs here. We'll start with Dwayne Blau.

Nick VinZant 51:51

What if you get there and he's just like I just don't like your face

John Shull 51:59

I don't it that's the thing with with with God, though, right? He's supposed to be all encompassing. You know, it doesn't matter your appearances if you live the good life or not.

Nick VinZant 52:07

Yeah, but what if they're just like,

John Shull 52:11

whatever you're like that one poor bastard a day where they're like, we're just gonna, you know, we're just gonna say Nope, that guy has an ugly face, right like

Nick VinZant 52:17

that. They got a limit for that day and you can you're just not quite good enough on that day. Like you might have made it in on Tuesday, but you're not making it on Wednesday.

John Shull 52:27

It's a BOGO. Two for one.

Nick VinZant 52:29

Right? Right, right because nobody else is. Like you gotta wait and you gotta wait your turn. Okay.

John Shull 52:35

All right, I'll see Dwayne Blau re your true mood Khalif Zhao Apollo Chow Apollo. Alright. Carlo min Toronto. Pedro Sarita Kelvin Shah, Stella Gibbons Stella.

Nick VinZant 52:58

No, nothing from nothing for me.

John Shull 53:00

Doesn't surprise me. Seth Thorson and Don Johnson but not the Don Johnson. I don't think Hi Betsy hates

Nick VinZant 53:08

that. Also, not enough Calvin's I could do more with some Calvin's in the world. I think there should be a few more Calvin's around.

John Shull 53:18

Um, whatever it's, is whether we actually have a college here in Michigan not too far from Metro Detroit. That's named Calvin College so I get plenty of Calvin. Okay,

Nick VinZant 53:29

but there are people who go named Calvin Do you know a lot of people named Calvin then go to Calvin.

John Shull 53:34

I know to Calvin's actually.

Nick VinZant 53:37

I don't know any personally. Well,

John Shull 53:41

that's not your problem. Alright, so we're gonna try something a little different here. Okay, I haven't actually I didn't actually come up with a name for the segment because I didn't I don't know. But we're gonna try it out. Okay. So I'm not really sure what you're gonna think of that. So if you hate it, we'll stop but so I wrote down on my iPhone here, like five or six things that I want to know as an adult one if you can do them and two, if you should know how to do them as an Oh,

Nick VinZant 54:08

okay. All right. Sounds promising so far. Yeah, well,

John Shull 54:13

we'll see here all right. So I already know what you're gonna say to this but remember, it's not about you. It's about other adults. So first one here and once again, I want to know if you if you can do it, and then adults should be able to so first one here pair wine to a meal.

Nick VinZant 54:30

Oh, I don't think that most people should be able to do that. I think that you should have a basic knowledge as of what is red, what is white, what is whatever. But I don't necessarily think that you should have an in depth knowledge of what goes with what? I'm perfectly okay with somebody not knowing that.

John Shull 54:47

Can you do it? No,

Nick VinZant 54:48

I don't like the taste of wine. Every time I've ever had wine. It's been disgusting to me truly disgusting to me. I can't stand the taste of it. Not like I don't like it like no, I don't want any of that.

John Shull 55:00

Okay, all right. So but October you're in full swing, I guess. Stupid.

Nick VinZant 55:06

You wait for a laugh and you didn't get it? Is that what happened?

John Shull 55:09

While I was waiting for you to either shit on it or say like that's a good joke, but you didn't do either. So I just

Nick VinZant 55:15

left you completely hanging, he had nothing nowhere to do nothing to do it. Okay, listen, if

John Shull 55:20

you're doing sober, October Good on you. I am not alright. Second one here, be able to change a tire. Yeah, if

Nick VinZant 55:28

you're a guy, you should probably be able to change a tire. It's one of those things, it's really actually not very difficult, but you need to be able to change a tire. I would almost argue like men, definitely you should be able to kind of step in that at least for your reputation. But I think everybody should be able to change a tire suddenly you kind of need to know how to do.

John Shull 55:47

Okay, can you do it? Yeah. Okay. All right. I actually believe that. And I probably wouldn't have believed it six years ago.

Nick VinZant 55:55

No, I haven't I have no mechanical ability or any kind of DIY stability, but I can change a tire.

John Shull 56:02

Alright, the third one here. Tie a Tie.

Nick VinZant 56:06

Yeah, I can do that. But I worked in a career where you had to wear a tie for some part of the day pretty much every day. I don't think that that's essential anymore.

John Shull 56:18

So you don't think adults nowadays should know how to tie a tie?

Nick VinZant 56:23

I think that that's something that you should know how to just in case. You don't want to be a 45 year old man coming up and being like, Hey, can you help me tie this tie? Like you need to be able to do that.

John Shull 56:36

Alright, number four, brew coffee.

Nick VinZant 56:38

No, I don't even know what that is. What is brew coffee? What does that mean? Like make your own coffee or just like, put it in and start it?

John Shull 56:46

Do you know how to operate a coffee machine? I

Nick VinZant 56:48

don't I don't like coffee to me is like wine. I can't stand the taste of it. So I don't know how to operate a coffee machine at all. If somebody asked me hey, can you make the coffee but I can't actually.

John Shull 56:58

Okay, all right. I I don't know what to say to that other than there's another person in my life that we that I asked to make coffee and they also didn't know how to do it. So it doesn't surprise me.

Nick VinZant 57:09

But do they drink coffee?

John Shull 57:12

Yes, not regularly. But yes. Okay,

Nick VinZant 57:16

how often do they drink coffee?

John Shull 57:18

If really once once a week, I mean enough to know how to operate it. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 57:22

if you drink coffee once a week, or even once a month, you should know how to make a coffee. All right. It's not that hard, right? Like you take the thing out and you put the thing in and you press start like this isn't rocket science.

John Shull 57:36

I mean, it sounds like you already know how to do it. So there

Nick VinZant 57:38

you go there. It's it doesn't seem like it'd be that difficult. Like if somebody asked me, Hey, we really need you to make the coffee. I'm going to perform surgery on this dying person. Can you make coffee? Like I'll figure it out?

John Shull 57:48

I think you could. All right. Let's see here. Swim.

Nick VinZant 57:55

Yeah, you need to be able to know how to swim. I think that everybody needs to be able to know how to swim. I know there's some people, I've met a couple of adults who didn't know how to swim, but you should be able to do it. And even as an adult, like I don't understand that concept of that, like you're an adult, you couldn't learn how to swim in five minutes, like move your arms like this. That's the thing is, as an adult, haven't you moved your arms in any every possible way, by the time that you are an adult? Like what movement of your arms would be so unusual to you as an adult that you wouldn't be able to figure it out like movement, a circle, I've never done that. I've only gone forwards and out like, you should be able to teach an adult to swim in five minutes.

John Shull 58:40

This warms my heart because I don't know why. But this segment I think is going well. So thank you for that.

Nick VinZant 58:45

I'm upset about the fact that you need to know how to swim. I've always had a huge fear about people around water. I don't like people around water don't know how to swim. You gotta know what you're doing. You don't get a second chance of water.

John Shull 58:58

So you don't so sub question just because I'm curious. At what point do you feel uncomfortable when you're swimming? Is it like would you feel comfortable jumping off a boat in the middle of a lake? Is it in the ocean? Are you comfortable? Wherever you're swimming?

Nick VinZant 59:17

Like totally comfortable in my ability to swim?

John Shull 59:20

Yeah, like if you were to I don't know if like I said if you were to jump in the middle of a lake. Do you feel confident that you could tread water and swim to say a boat or something?

Nick VinZant 59:32

Depends if the water is not really cold yeah, that's the other thing for people who don't know you don't fuck around with cold water. Because every getting you ever getting like a cold shower or something like that. Your body like will immediately take a breath like you know it sounds really cold to get that water on you. Well, if you jump into cold water you do that and then your lungs fill up with water and you die. Don't Don't mess with water man.

John Shull 59:59

All right, well, let's I'm gonna end it here on something that's a little lighter, I think parallel parking.

Nick VinZant 1:00:06

You should be able to do that. You I live in a big city. I live in Seattle, I should say, well, Seattle is kind of a big city. You need to be able to parallel park, I probably do it three times a month. I think that you should be able to, I think that you should be able to do it. I don't think that you necessarily have to be good at it. But you need to understand the concept of it.

John Shull 1:00:33

Is it is it more stressful to parallel park or navigate a grocery store parking lot to park?

Nick VinZant 1:00:41

Oh, well. I would almost rather parallel park on a street then have to like kind of squeeze in in an underground parking garage. I don't like parking in parking garages because that they've made that like that's a pretty close fit now.

John Shull 1:01:00

Yeah, I mean, a decade ago was close enough. And then if you're a bigger person, you're for sure dinging the car next to you. The cars are getting bigger brah it's not even fair. Not even fair. I think you should be able to parallel park. However, I feel like EVs and well, not necessarily V's but these cars that have these systems that do it for you are going to take that away from the next generation.

Nick VinZant 1:01:22

Do you think that in the next 50 years, we're going to be complete idiots? Because computers will do everything for us?

John Shull 1:01:30

Yeah, I mean, I think and I'm as guilty as the next person. I mean, there are some things I don't remember last time, I had to do real math. Like I just bust out my phone, and I just Oh, what's 20% on this tip? Right? Like, I don't? I don't I don't think about it.

Nick VinZant 1:01:46

I don't think it's a problem if people can't do math, but I think that you'd have to learn how to think that would be the thing that worries me right is like us, we're going to start to forget how to think like, oh, how do you figure that out? And nobody is used to it? If the computer can't answer the question for you. You could

John Shull 1:02:03

argue that the generation below us or generations already don't know how to think all they do is communicate with their text messages.

Nick VinZant 1:02:12

I'm okay with that. That's just a different way of communication, right? Like we didn't write letters. Do you write letters? It's not like grandma and grandpa over here complaining like these kids today? Don't don't write letters to each other about everything. No, because I can call you. Maybe I do like to write letters. That's fine. But don't judge the new generation because they're not writing letters anymore. adapt to the technology.

John Shull 1:02:32

It's not what is it doesn't take anything. It doesn't even matter.

Nick VinZant 1:02:36

Back in my day. We didn't even have air to breathe. Had to hold your breath for 40 years.

John Shull 1:02:42

Can we move on before I snap you into a tote or something? Only if you acknowledge

Nick VinZant 1:02:47

the fact that I just had a good joke about back in my day, we didn't even have air had to hold your breath for 40 years. I thought that was pretty good.

John Shull 1:02:57

It was fine. It was

Nick VinZant 1:02:58

better than fine. It's like a six at least at a seven.

John Shull 1:03:03

It was good. There. It was. It was good. It was a fine. Good.

Nick VinZant 1:03:06

Um, are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 1:03:08

Yes.

Nick VinZant 1:03:11

All right. So our top five is top five fictional witches? Sure. Number five.

John Shull 1:03:17

Fictional? Are there any actual witches?

Nick VinZant 1:03:21

Yeah, there have been people throughout history who have claimed to be witches. Whether or not they are right, in the eye of the beholder, but these are fixed, purely fictional witches.

John Shull 1:03:32

All right, my number five. I'm gonna go with Ursula from The Little Mermaid.

Nick VinZant 1:03:37

I thought about that, but I just don't think of her as a witch.

John Shull 1:03:42

Have you ever seen the movie

Nick VinZant 1:03:44

I have. But that's not my first thought of her as a witch. I just thought she was like an evil person.

John Shull 1:03:50

Who, who did the live? The live action movie who just played her Christie McCarthy? What's her name? Anyways, she did a fantastic job. And I feel like Ursula is unknown, which like so. Okay, unknown character. So that is why Melissa McCarthy that's her name by the way. Melissa McCarthy?

Nick VinZant 1:04:12

Oh, I was like Who the hell's that? That makes a lot more sense to now it's Melissa McCarthy. My number five is Mila Sandra from Game of Thrones.

John Shull 1:04:22

Okay, I mean, you know, once again, I don't as you kind of said about Ursula, I don't think people it's not that I don't think people don't know she's a witch. I just don't think that she is known outside of that community.

Nick VinZant 1:04:34

Outside of Game of Thrones, everybody knows about the Red Priestess. I think if you showed a lot of people a picture of her they'd be like, they might not know the name. Because Mila Sandra is not a name that's easily remembered. But they will be like, Oh, I know who that person is. She was a big character in there a good character. A lot of potential left on the table.

John Shull 1:04:54

Yeah, I don't know. I'm not not sure not sure about that one. Okay. All right, number four. It's a homework Pick, just because this is the only movie that I remember having a nightmare because the first time I watched it, it literally scared the shit out of me. And that is the Blair Witch.

Nick VinZant 1:05:12

But is that a person? Is that a real was the I'd never seen that movie. Was the witch supposed to be with real?

John Shull 1:05:20

I yeah, I mean she. Yeah, I don't know. Watch Blair Witch too. There's an actual witch and that one, so I presume it was a real witch. Or a fake, real witch.

Nick VinZant 1:05:31

But did they show the witch in the Blair Witch? And then they like and that's the witch there?

John Shull 1:05:36

No, because that's the whole aura is that she was such an entity that you didn't have to see her.

Nick VinZant 1:05:43

Oh, so you're numb. That's the concept of the Blair Witch. Even though the is the Blair Witch ever actually shown in any movie? I've never seen it. Like you can see on screen like, Oh, there's the Blair Witch.

John Shull 1:05:54

Not in the first one. No, but that's what makes it so fucking creepy. Is all this stuff happening? And you don't know where this little scraggly old lady is?

Nick VinZant 1:06:04

Yeah, that's too scary for me, man. I don't like those kinds of things.

John Shull 1:06:08

Well, I had to put her on. I had to put it on how to put it on. My number

Nick VinZant 1:06:12

four is Kiki from Kiki's Delivery Service. Basically the exact opposite of your Blair Witch with her meanness so nice. Which, good which?

John Shull 1:06:21

I don't. I don't even know what this is Kiki's Delivery Service

Nick VinZant 1:06:25

Delivery Service. Probably one of the greatest movies of all time. It's up there. It's one of the best animated movies of All Time. Why would you know about it?

John Shull 1:06:32

Yeah, I honestly have no idea what you're referring to.

Nick VinZant 1:06:35

It's a great movie. You should watch it. It's actually great with children too. It's a happy story about coming of age and learning about who you are as a person and becoming okay with your own talents and your abilities.

John Shull 1:06:45

Okay, are you done? Yeah. My number three Hermione Granger from Harry Potter. Okay. Okay.

Nick VinZant 1:06:54

I have Hermione is my number two. Hermione Granger is my number two, but I could see her at number three. That'd be okay. She's definitely in the top three, I think because she's the main which out of all the witches in the Harry Potter series.

John Shull 1:07:08

I thought there was a for sure. Like, lock up number one and two. So I'm curious to know where you go with one. My number

Nick VinZant 1:07:18

two do I get to say what my number three is? Or

John Shull 1:07:21

do you just Oh, yeah. Number three. Sorry. Yeah. Number three.

Nick VinZant 1:07:23

My number three is a tie between like all the witch trios, Hocus Pocus, charmed. Whatever any of those other kinds of trio of which shows are that's that's about where I'm going to go ahead and put them although I would put the hocus pocus which is above the charmed witches.

John Shull 1:07:41

Well, those are my number two. The Sanderson Sisters. That's who they are focus.

Nick VinZant 1:07:46

Which one is your number one though, out of the Sanderson sisters?

John Shull 1:07:50

I mean, I think you have to go that MEDLARS character,

Nick VinZant 1:07:53

you have to go with Benton Miller's character, she is the best, which three of them?

John Shull 1:07:58

I actually don't even remember the actress that plays the really crazy one. At this moment. Which one's

Nick VinZant 1:08:04

the really crazy one, the one that I know is like bet Millers would be the number one which out of that. And then the lady from Sex in the City would be the second one. And then there's the third one that you can't remember who it is.

John Shull 1:08:15

No, that's let's see. So it's winter. Fred, Sara and Mary.

Nick VinZant 1:08:21

Give it who are the actors playing that because that means nothing to me.

John Shull 1:08:25

Jesus. I was hoping that that bought me a little bit of time here. Oh, you were trying to stall? I was trying to but you know. I should have known better. Let's see. So that meddler plays winner Fred. Okay. Okay. Sarah. Jessica. Parker plays Sarah. That's the kind of the crazy when I was talking about. And then Kathy and the Jimmy plays Mary. She's kind of kind of the bigger set one, but But yeah, so if you're trying to visualize them, because we apparently don't know what we're talking about.

Nick VinZant 1:08:58

No, but I would say that Bette Midler steals the show. She's the biggest which of them, then it's probably Sarah Jessica Parker and then the other lady.

John Shull 1:09:06

Do you know, probably don't care, but I'm going to tell you anyways, Bette Midler is 77 years old.

Nick VinZant 1:09:13

I would have thought that she was older than that, to be honest. She's one of those people that's been old the entire time I've ever known who she was. I don't know about that. But okay. I can't think of a young bet. And there's some people that like they've always been old, even though they were probably like in their 30s When you first heard of them, but they've always been old.

John Shull 1:09:34

That's a good top five list for another day. I

Nick VinZant 1:09:36

think Alan Alda. Leslie Nielsen just always been old.

John Shull 1:09:41

No, he's dead. I think they're both that's a really Oh, it's terrible. Yeah. All right. So we have the same number one, then I presume?

Nick VinZant 1:09:49

I'm going to assume So is it the Wicked Witch of the West? Yes. Yeah.

John Shull 1:09:54

I mean, it's, it's hard not to say she's, you know, she'd probably be number one. I'm Most people's top five lists I would think.

Nick VinZant 1:10:02

I don't think that there's anybody that even comes close to the Wicked Witch of the West. No, that has to be number one.

John Shull 1:10:10

Though I do have Glenda the Goodwitch on my honorable mention

Nick VinZant 1:10:14

who was the one that got crushed by the house? What was she the witch of been crushed by House pink.

John Shull 1:10:25

The witch that get crushed by a house.

Nick VinZant 1:10:28

Let's say go in your honorable mention why look it up.

John Shull 1:10:30

So I have Alexandra Jane and Sookie from an underrated movie called Witches of Eastwick. That's a good one. The White Witch from Lyon in the wardrobe. Let's see going on down the list Nancy downs from the craft. You've never seen it because it's a scary movie craft is

Nick VinZant 1:10:51

one that I think that I have heard of, but I'm not entirely sure which one that one is. Was she the main one? Was she the friend that was kind of like the outcast? And then she became okay.

John Shull 1:11:04

Yeah, and who was the main who was the main character of that of that movie? Alicia Silverstone right?

Nick VinZant 1:11:13

washy.

John Shull 1:11:15

No, I lied to you. Was it will not Campbell was in that movie to Firoozeh book is the person I'm thinking of. I can't remember who else is on it. Anyways, I'm

Nick VinZant 1:11:28

always the witch of the week. The witches Wicked Witch of the East is the one that got crushed by a house.

John Shull 1:11:32

Well, she now coming back. Nicole Kidman Sandra Bullock from Practical Magic. That's a nice little movie if you're looking for a date night with the wife. And then I have Willow, played by Alyson Hannigan from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Nick VinZant 1:11:49

Hmm. I don't have any of those people. Anybody else really? That was mentioned? I mean, you could go down the list with Harry Potter, which is I think, but that's about it. Right? Like you could go with I can't think of any of their names. Right. But there's a lot of Harry Potter witches, but I don't think any of them get in the top five. McGonagle maybe?

John Shull 1:12:08

Yeah, but I mean, once again, I like any movie franchise, right? You have the main five characters? And then it's I do I mean, do you really know the others? Unless you're a huge supporter? Probably not.

Nick VinZant 1:12:20

I don't think I generally ever know more than three to five characters in any movie.

John Shull 1:12:27

Well, you know with the all the kids movies you watch, that's really all you need to know. Probably.

Nick VinZant 1:12:31

But even with Avengers, I can't. Like I can only follow like two or three people. Like okay, there's too many things going on here. I don't watch a lot of kids movies. We watch YouTube mountain biking videos now.

John Shull 1:12:45

Oh, that's cute.

Nick VinZant 1:12:47

Yeah, it is kinda enjoy it. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really does help out the show. And I want to say a special thank you. Because we found out right after John and I recorded this that we actually won. We actually won the award for best interview podcast. It's shocking. Like take that Kevin Hart. Right. I can't I could not believe it. I thought we had absolutely no chance of winning. So I want to thank I really want to thank everybody who voted. Thank you for taking your time. We really appreciate it. It really does keep the show going. Let us know who you think are the best witches. I think you do have to put the Wicked Witch of the West. On is number one. Like she's the iconic witch. But any of that. I wonder if Hermione Granger would actually be number one. If it wasn't like so spread out like if she was the only witch in that series if she would have been number one.

Handwriting Analyst Emma Bache

What does your handwriting say about you? Graphologist Emma Bache studies people’s handwriting to reveal their real personality. We talk graphology, the red flags hidden in handwriting and reading between the lines. Then, it’s Taylor Swift against a host of other Taylors as we countdown the Top 5 Taylors of All Time.

Emma Bache:

Pointless: 34:24

Candle of the Month: 58:22

Top 5 Taylors: 01:02:38

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Contact the Show

Emma Bache Website

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Emma Bache's Book: Reading Between the Lines: What your handwriting says about you

Interview with Graphologist Emma Bache

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode handwriting, and Taylor's

Emma Bache 0:21

graphology is the art of analyzing somebody's personality through their handwriting. So, you know, who knows whether either of them would have committed these crimes, if they haven't met each other? No, because they're all different things. The middle zone is to do with how somebody copes on a day to day level, it's also to do with their ego, and how practical they are.

Nick VinZant 0:44

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies handwriting, specifically what your handwriting says about you. This is graphologist Emma Bache. What is graphology?

Emma Bache 1:14

graphology? is the art of analyzing somebody's personality through their handwriting.

Nick VinZant 1:20

What are you really looking at, though? Like, what about somebody's handwriting is telling you what their personality is, like,

Emma Bache 1:28

I'm looking at absolutely everything. I'm looking at the size, the individual size, the individual bit of letters, the zones, I'm looking at slant, I'm looking at the spacing, I'm looking at the pressure of the pen, I'm looking at all the little anomalies of every individual stroke, I'm looking at the layout on the page, and all these things together will give me a pretty good picture of the personality.

Nick VinZant 1:53

Yeah, what kind of things will generally tell you? Are we talking about kind of like big broad things, in the sense like this person is organized, this person is not organized? Or are we talking about really specific things like, this person's mother never really loved them. And it's reflected in their handwriting or something like that? Well, it's

Emma Bache 2:13

not going to tell me whether their mother really loved them or not, because that's, you know, gets into a little bit of a crystal ball. I mean, I wish I could do that. But um, it might, I might show up that they have mother issues, it might show up that how they are at mothering themselves, and they could be a man. So it shows up broad personality traits, but also more individual. I mean, for instance, I can tell the difference between somebody who's had a glass of wine and somebody who's an alcoholic, I can tell the difference between somebody who is strong willpower very ambitious, and somebody who's actually very aggressive and violent.

Nick VinZant 3:00

What is it about the writing, though, that is telling you something like, why would somebody's personality characteristics be reflected in their writing,

Emma Bache 3:09

because handwriting is a fine motor coordination. And when we pick up a pen or pencil or any writing instrument, with our hand, then actually it's our brain that's doing the action, not the hand is merely is merely a conduit to what how the brain is operating. And of fine motor coordination is influenced by how we expand or constrict our personality, which then goes on to the page, but also have very transient thoughts and feelings and physical, you know, physicality, how we're actually feeling. And also our emotional mental state, everything is, is reflected in that fine motor coordination.

Nick VinZant 3:56

Now, can you look at like any piece of writing? Or does it have to be somebody like sitting down and dedicating kind of to really writing something important, right? And then the example would be like, does it have to be a letter to somebody? Or can you look at like a post it note that somebody scribbled off like, get milk today

Emma Bache 4:13

shouldn't be a graffiti on a wall, it can be a doodle Eve, but that's another whole subject owner know, something that has been written more subconsciously like, like a post it note or a letter that I'm looking at historically, rather than what I don't like is somebody who writes something for me in front of me knowing that I'm going to analyze it. Sometimes I have no choice. If I'm writing at an event, then that happens. But the more subconscious the better. It is, and no, it can honestly it can be graffiti, so.

Nick VinZant 4:50

So how is this kind of viewed is this kind of viewed as like, Yep, this is an exact science. Is this a pseudoscience? How is it kind of it's not

Emma Bache 4:58

an exact OSI and I do it's not a pseudo science either. It's an inexact science in that in its basis, there are scientific justifications as to what our brain processes when we pick up a pen. But it's also it's an art in that I, as a human, of analyzing this person, but I'm putting everything together. But I mean, it's no less an inexact science, as many forms of forensic or psychology is. And that's what grifola G is, it's another form of psychology, it's another form of looking at an individual and trying to unravel what's going on beneath the surface. Why would

Nick VinZant 5:43

you say that? What would it what it is about it is the reason that it like it wouldn't be more accepted?

Emma Bache 5:49

Well, it when you say more accepted, it's because because it is an inexact science. And possibly because I live in England as well, we tend to be quite skeptical about things maybe more skeptical than the Americans definitely. And certainly more skeptical and say the North Europeans. People don't want to believe anything very easily unless they have an absolute tangible proof of something

Nick VinZant 6:20

that makes sense to me, right? Like I could see, because I do believe that little choices that people make really tell a lot about them, like you could walk into somebody's house Intel a lot about who they are. But I can also see it in the terms of handwriting of like, I put no thought into this thing that I just wrote and just did it as quickly as possible. You know, like, I could see it telling you a lot and I could see it kind of telling you nothing depending on the framing of

Emma Bache 6:46

it. But on the other hand, you can plant things in your house to give an impression to somebody that you're somebody that you're not. And a lot of people do that with with particular things they might have. Whereas the handwriting, honestly, it's it's You can't hide things from me, even if you try and hide things, then the speed of the writing slows down into something else. And handwriting changes all the time, because we change all the time. So if I'm analyzing somebody's handwriting, right now, it is how they are now, not how they were yesterday, or even four hours ago, and certainly not tomorrow morning. Now, they might be the same. But you know, depending on whether it's morning or night, or, or who they've just spoken to how they feel physically and emotionally, who they're writing about who they're writing to. All those things have have an effect on your personality

Nick VinZant 7:43

as a gruff ologists? Like what kind of work are you mainly doing?

Emma Bache 7:47

Um, I would say that probably 30% of my work is doing after dinner and keynote speaking and working at events, which is what I just did in San Francisco. But I also do quite a lot of forensic work. And then I would say, quite a lot of my work is helping large companies some American with recruitment. So I'm helping to draw up a shortlist to get absolutely the right candidate for the for the applicant.

Nick VinZant 8:17

So if somebody wants to hire say, like the new CEO or a high ranking position, they'll send you samples of someone's handwriting to look at well, yes. And

Emma Bache 8:25

I'd also need to look to see who's going to be working in the team, because after all, I can I need a brief the company or the individual who's employing to see what traits they're looking for and what they're not looking for. But I also need to see whether that individual is going to gel within the team.

Nick VinZant 8:43

Is it ever used by courts at all?

Emma Bache 8:45

Occasionally, yes, I do not work as an expert witness. In court. However, I am used by lawyers and security companies and individuals who may want to get the police involved with a possible crime that's been committed. And I also look at handwriting to see in my professional opinion if it's been forged or copied by somebody which of course that sort of work unfortunately tends to go up in times of economic downturn because white collar crime goes up

Nick VinZant 9:20

oh like third wanted to see if somebody really signed this thing. They want to match this handwriting to that handwriting that kind of stuff. Yeah.

Emma Bache 9:29

But but also there is that but also to look at criminal tendencies and people I mean, for instance, I've I'm there's a documentary came out in May, which is still there about Ian Brady, who you may have probably haven't heard of, but in the 1960s was terrible case of a man and a woman who were sort of lovers but actually he was gay and it's quite complicated, but they they kidnapped sexually abused and murdered a whole load of children in the north of England. they buried them in the malls in Lancashire, which is sort of wait a wild, sort of out of the way sort of fields and things. And they were captured but not before they've killed a lot of children. And they're both dead now, but they did a documentary on Ian Brady, who was the man and Myra Hindley was the woman. But it was about Ian Brady, who was actually even though he had a very bad upbringing and quite tragic upbringing. He was highly intelligent. And he was also a prolific letter writer. So they contacted me to see looking at his handwriting, there's letters as to whether there was any clue in the personality as to why we've done this. And whether I thought he was a sociopath.

Nick VinZant 10:47

What was your diagnosis? So

Emma Bache 10:49

what was quite chilling, what was quite chilling, exactly what was quite chilling was that I was looking at the original letters, they weren't copy, they were original. And he was mostly when he was in prison. And he was writing to, you know, people who took an interest in him or were writing to him. And I think there was a social worker involved and everything else. And what I saw was that he was certainly narcissistic, he was certainly obsessive compulsive. He was highly intelligent. He had a temper, but he, I, in my opinion, he was not a sociopath or a psychopath. And it was almost as though he was, I mean, deeply controlling. And then the woman that was very much the partner in crime also abused and murdered these children, boys and girls, and they tape recorded them when they were torturing them. What does that say? rific. She was not his intellectual equal. And he he basically controlled this woman. So, you know, who knows whether either of them would have committed these crimes? If they hadn't met each other?

Nick VinZant 11:59

How did you become a gruff? ologists? Like, how did how did you get into this,

Emma Bache 12:03

I've always been interested in psychology, I've always been interested in what makes people tick, and what literally is underneath surface. And a friend asked me to do a long, long time ago, 36 years ago, was to do a weekend workshop in it, and I loved it. And because of that, I then in joint vehicle, the British Institute of Technology, and I did a three year course with them. But I've now started to do my workshops at home, teach LP, because it was such a big influence on me just doing that workshop. That's really what got me hooked. So then

Nick VinZant 12:40

will you try to adjust your own handwriting? Oh, no, somebody study this know about it and be like, no, no, no, don't slant that a or whatever. When

Emma Bache 12:48

I was some training, I've become quite because obviously, we looked at each other's handwriting and everything else. And I'd become slightly paranoid neurotic about what people thought, but a, I'm too old, I don't care anymore. And be I really don't mix with other good colleges. I seriously do. I mean, I knew the names of other colleges, but I very much work on my own. And, you know, I have enough confidence my inability I do. I think, obviously, you get to my age, and you don't care what people think.

Unknown Speaker 13:20

You don't care. I

Emma Bache 13:21

mean, it's one of the massive advantages of getting up.

Nick VinZant 13:25

I feel like it starts at like, 30. And you just like, I just don't give a shit. Well,

Emma Bache 13:31

trust me, it's just really there.

Nick VinZant 13:35

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Emma Bache 13:37

Yes, absolutely. Let's do it. What letter tells

Nick VinZant 13:41

you the most about someone what letter kind of just tells you nothing.

Emma Bache 13:46

That's not the way I do it, because I'm looking at every single little individual thing about the writing, which we've covered before, but I'm also looking at the whole thing together. However, having said that, there's only one letter in the alphabet that goes to all suizo. And if you think about the baseline, the actual line or the imaginary line, and the little bit above that middle zone, and then the loops at the top is alpha zone, and then swinging loops at the bottom is lows and there's only one letter in the alphabet that that would go through all three and that's the letter F, but that doesn't make the letter F any more important than anything else. So no, there isn't there's no letter

Nick VinZant 14:24

is there a difference in those zones, right? Like where you can really see like, Okay, this zone, the top zone, the middle zone, the bottom zone, right? And I think a bit of like on the line kind of up towards that and then below that, yeah, speaking right is like, is there one zone that you would like okay, that's the one you really

Emma Bache 14:40

know because they're all different things. The middle zone is to do with how somebody copes on a day to day level, it's also to do with their ego, and how practical they are. The opposite tends to be thought processes the intellect maybe their beliefs if they've got a strong religious belief or and also to do with it cue as well, lower zone is more to do with their physicality and actually their sexuality as well. I mean, you know, if I'm giving honestly, I'm giving a talk or something like that, you know, especially the man, sorry to say they want to know about their lower zones, and they will, they will desperately, you know, adjusting the length of their lifts,

Nick VinZant 15:21

then there's a if you have a low low if you have a lower loop, does that mean that you may be heterosexual as opposed to homosexual? Or like, how does that what is the lower

Emma Bache 15:33

said the sex drive is sexuality? So if, if you put this out, everybody's gonna, um, well, I, there are certain traits. And I'm afraid I mean, this does sound very sexist and judgmental, but whatever. Male homosexuals often, often, but not always have particular traits, which I'm not prepared to say. But that's not to say that all gay men have this trait. Although when I see it,

Unknown Speaker 16:08

you have a suspicion. I've never been

Emma Bache 16:11

proven wrong. Let's just put it that way.

Nick VinZant 16:14

So have you ever had a circumstance then where like, you've been doing something and you see somebody's writing and like, oh, I don't know if they know that we're maybe you learn something that the person didn't know. Or somebody that the person was friends with? Didn't know you're talking

Emma Bache 16:29

about the gay thing?

Nick VinZant 16:32

Or just anything?

Emma Bache 16:33

Oh, yes. Oh, no, no, no, for sure. Oh, no, no, no, absolutely. No, no, no, no, yeah. It was about 10 years ago, and I was working to very large event, very large dinner, and I was sitting at a table and people were coming up to see me. I mean, there were hundreds of people that before dinner during dinner after dinner. And this man came up. And he was very nice. We were chatting format. Anyway, I looked at handwriting, and he just wanted to know. And you know, I just told him, I mean, I can't remember the specifics. But I do remember looking at his handwriting and just like, just singing, he was gay, but wasn't relevant commitment. You know, I assumed that. So but we just talked about other things. And we got on very well, anyway. Then he left, I saw loads of other people. And then a couple of hours later, this woman came to my table, and she said, Oh, you know, my husband came to me and said that, he'd come see you and you outsi brilliant and said, Oh, you must go and speak to Emma and everything else. So I looked at her handwriting. And you know, we talked about her and everything else. And I said to her, I said Who was your husband? And she said she described him? Okay. And I thought oh, okay, interesting. And then she said, Look, I need to talk to you in confidence about something and I could feel myself getting quite sweaty, you know, because I was like, and, and she said, I just you know, we've been married for 40 years or something. But I just feel as though there's something about him that I didn't know. And she said, I don't know what it is. But I always feel as though there's something that that and I honestly, I just had to lie, and I just said I've got no idea.

Nick VinZant 18:16

Oh, yeah, you can't be like, Oh, do you know? Oh, you can't see this G that's clearly like, yeah, that's you gotta bail. Yeah,

Emma Bache 18:29

I got no idea. You know, I did. But I remember thinking after it's good, my god,

Nick VinZant 18:36

does it matter? If somebody is right or left handed?

Emma Bache 18:39

It matters in that I can't tell. I've already told you I can't tell sex, but I can't tell the age of the person. And I can't tell if the right or left handed? And the answer to your question is it might matter. In the when we're taught to write certainly in the West, we're taught to write with a slight right slant. That's the sort of normal, you know, it doesn't matter if you have a left side, by the way, but that's what we're taught to write. However, if you're left handed, which is about 10% of the population, and some of that left hand, people write like this or the right, so as not to smudge the writing. And so if I see somebody who's got quite a severe left slot, or even a little bit of a left slot, it would have a different interpretation if it was written by left hander than if it was written by a right handed person. So it is quite important that I know but being realistic, often, I don't know, because I've given this handwriting and they I'm not told, or if it's a historical piece, I don't know.

Nick VinZant 19:44

But it wouldn't be like, Okay, you have this evaluation with somebody and that turns out like they're a jerk. They're mean they do all these bad things. But then you found out that they were left handed and actually no, they're actually really nice. Like, would it be a jerk? ematic 180

Emma Bache 20:01

No, not really, because because the left the handedness thing would affect the slot, you know, the slant of the writing, and starts really to do with, you know, our how sociable somebody is maybe their communication style. It would only be if they had very severe left slant, and then I might have to make investigations or whatever. So generally not. But it can explain certain things. I mean, as I explained before, no one trait means anything of on its own. However, every single trait means something so put together. It's very important, if that makes sense. I mean, on the workshop that I did, we were looking at, it's quite fun that we will look at Mother two A's as handwriting. Okay. So if you're going to say somebody who's nice, I mean, Mother Teresa sort of out there is that in somebody's mind, and it was the final thing. And yeah, these, you know, meant to be a nice person, but she's not incredibly, not totally nice, quite materialistic, actually. And, you know, there are lots of things that are surprising, not awful. But, um, these people, mainly middle age, I was trying to teach as a final thing of the weekend, I say, like, this is somebody who's famous, they're dead. It's a woman. I'm gonna give you, you know, 45 minutes to write a mini report on this person. So I went where I came back and said, what they said, up is just, I mean, I was actually weeping with laughter. But, you know, this terrible things, which I didn't agree with, you know, particularly they said, Oh, well, she's obviously a sloth.

Nick VinZant 21:46

Say that about Mother Teresa.

Emma Bache 21:48

But it was just the very idea of all land, right, the Fed looked at, do you know what I mean? I was, I was literally weeping with laughter. And I said, Well, you know, like

Nick VinZant 22:05

but that's like, something was so dark. That's one of those things that is just truly truly funny. Well, just truly,

Emma Bache 22:14

but but actually, what they were picking up on what they were picking up on, was the fact that there was a sense of duality there. But there was also the paste in us and the depth of the writing of the lower zone, pointed the fact that she was a little bit more materialistic than perhaps her reputation would go so that's what they were picking up on.

Nick VinZant 22:37

I know that you've analyzed some of the handwriting of some famous people like what who have you looked at what have you kind of found Well, I'm

Emma Bache 22:43

sometimes asked to analyze you know, pop stars or you know, Beyonce or whatever, but which, you know, has limited interests me but as well as criminals and things I will to analyze quite a lot of politicians whether their own our own politicians in it, Boris Johnson, Rishi Sunak, Tereza May, I mean, whoever else has a very fleeting moment in our running our country, but also in America. Trump, you know, was incredibly famous for his shenanigans, perhaps as he did, but his handwriting was very individualistic, you always use a thick black felt tip pen, he sort of semi printed his writing. And so and then Biden has other different issues problems going on. So I and I've also analyzed Kim Jun and Putin, and which is interesting.

Nick VinZant 23:40

So now I'm super curious, though. What did you What did you think of I guess, what characteristics Did you find from Trump and what from Biden?

Emma Bache 23:48

Well, Trump again, our perception of Trump, you know, because people said, Oh, well, he's a sociopath, isn't he? Well, we tend to use that word with anybody that we think is negative we don't like and whatever the plenty of unlikable traits with Trump. Now he wasn't a sociopath. But again, he was narcissistic, but he had total conviction in what he believed he was saying, you know, I mean, I know people say he was a liar and everything else. Well, yeah, he did lie, but I think at the time, you've thought he was saying the right thing. So you know, he was a great self publicist, narcissistic and Biden is harder to read and and perhaps a little bit more thoughtful there. Having said that, Trump did think about things before he said them, although he may have acted as though he didn't. But Biden was perhaps tries trying to cover up more things, but there were physical problems that I see with by and I'm not medically trained, so I can't say exactly, but certainly he's an elder Man, but I think physically he has physical problems.

Unknown Speaker 25:05

Yeah. So can we do?

Nick VinZant 25:08

Can we do this real quick. So I sent a sample of my handwriting to you what kind of, broadly speaking, broadly speaking, I guess what kind of jumps out okay, now

Emma Bache 25:18

you've written you've chosen to write it online paper, which may say something about yourself anyway, I would normally say don't write online paper. However, the fact that you're you have very much stuck to the lines, and the fact that the letters are very much joined together, you like logic, you know, so it might be even quite difficult interviewing me, but you like logic in your life, and you like familiarity, you're very much a team player, you actually quite enjoy the routine thing. But the strokes are quite, it's quite heavy pressure. I mean, I know that I'm looking at the copy here. But I can tell it's quite heavy pressure. And, you know, there's a sense of duality to you, and you're very well balanced between the intellectual and the physical. And also the practical, you can get it maybe you like to think things through quite carefully. And so if you are suddenly presented with something, which is out of the blue, you might find it quite stressful. So you would find new situations quite stressful, stressful. And if you look at the page, you've got a much wider right hand margin than you have left. And if you think of that, going towards the right is the future and progression. And the left is what you know, in the past, you take, you know, you like to take your time with new people, new situations, and so anything other than that would take you a little bit more time than the average person to get used to it. You're very loyal, dependable.

Nick VinZant 26:52

I would say that that's pretty much all right on about my personality, is there any kind of like section of that, where you would say like, oh, looking at this specific part told me this or like,

Emma Bache 27:06

the letters themselves a very joined up. And most people have a combination of sort of printed and joined up cursive, whatever. And that's your it makes it much speedier writing, but that is to do with your logic and the fact that you're a team player, and you like routine, and there's a regularity to every aspect of your writing the size and the spacing, and, and the shape of the letters, which really makes you sort of conservative with a small c and liking, you know, enjoying routine, which isn't for everybody, it has to be said. And when I'm looking at the sweet zone is the opposite of the middle zone, the lower zone, and again, I would say look at the letter F, you know, it's all it's all very well balanced, which which makes you you know, balanced between the intellectual and the physical. And the fact that it is quite regular, you know, makes you a team player, rather than somebody who you know, needs to be on their own. And on that subject, if you look at the spacing between the actual words, it's sort of, it's not too wide, it's not too small, and it's very regular. So your sociability is quite normal, and you enjoy other people, but you don't, you don't feel a need to crowd them.

Nick VinZant 28:28

That is basically my personality.

Emma Bache 28:31

Well, it's a good one. I mean, you know, I wish I could say the same about myself,

Nick VinZant 28:34

is my is like my writing pretty normal.

Emma Bache 28:38

Oh, gosh, normal. I know what I do. Don't ask me what normal is. I've got no idea. I mean, I think you probably mean average, as opposed to normal. Look, when I'm looking at writing, I am looking for things that I'm looking for anomalies. I'm looking for things that scream out to me because they go against the norm of your writing or maybe against the norm of other people's writing. I would say there's nothing in your writing that would make me back off in any way. Okay, I can see. Riley is it? Okay, the if you look at the capitals, the L and the art, the art of Riley is a little bit more. Right with slanting than the L. Which might mean you're getting to the end of the page, though. And so you'd like speeding up you're right and speeding up. But it might be that you feel more communicative at that time towards laelia that you say is the the baby

Nick VinZant 29:40

of the family. Riley is the baby of the family. Yeah,

Emma Bache 29:43

but it's an interesting question that you ask because sometimes, and actually in my book, we talk about little individual things. Like I might say, you know, there might be a sentence that says like, you know, Peter likes J julienne Jennifer or something, and I'll say you have a who does he really like? Because the might be one of those names, which is much larger than the others or more of a right slot. And it's just like little funny little things like that you can see. And it's like some people might write their family name smaller or larger than that than they're given me. Which might mean that if they, if somebody was called Peter Jones, for instance, and Peter was very large and strong, and then the Jones was much lighter, and you could hardly read or maybe cross through, it might mean, I mean, it's not it's not a really big thing. And I probably wouldn't mention it. But it might mean that they have more of a problem with the family that they come from, as opposed to their personal self. That being or obviously, if you see somebody who's just got married, and they, you know, whether they're a man or woman they scraped through there, then you name it could be, you know, not a good sign.

Nick VinZant 31:09

So that's pretty much all the questions I got, I know that you've got a book out if people want to learn more, which the name young,

Emma Bache 31:15

why have a blinded reading between the lines, which is published by coworkers on your phones on Amazon. And it's really a book for everybody. It's a book for people aged eight to 100 Neat, and it's how to analyze your own handwriting. And it's how to look at your spouses or friends or relatives writing. And each chapter it gives a different personality trait to look at, and the slant and the spacing. And there's a chapter called red flags. So danger signs to look to look out for. And end of each chapter. There's a little exercise to do to see how much you've learned to think so although it's informative, it's also fun, and it's a great Christmas present. By the way,

Nick VinZant 32:01

I want to thank Emma so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts were Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description if you really want to learn more about this, her book Between the Lines is fascinating, especially the part about red flags. It's interesting because I think once you notice something about someone's handwriting, you really notice. Real quick, I want to take a second and thank one of the sponsors of our show in Cagni in cognitive mission is to help you take back control of your data privacy. We all know that data brokers and companies collect our personal information and then sell it and who knows where it goes in Cognis mission is to take your data back just as easily. Every year, identity theft seems to become a bigger and bigger problem, there has been a 68% increase in the number of data breaches in 2021 alone, and the likelihood of your data being stolen just keeps getting higher and higher. What incognito does is reach out to data brokers on your behalf requests that your personal data be removed, and then deals with any objections from their side. Going forward. What data brokers do is if you make a request, they'll remove it. But then they go back. Incognito keeps that from happening through three easy steps, create an account, grant them the right to work. And then they will contact data brokers on your behalf and request that your data be removed permanently. And right now in Cognito is available risk free for 30 days. Anybody can try it. And if you don't like it, you'll get a full refund. We even have a special discount available. All you have to do is go to incognito.com/profound and enter the code profoundly. And you can try in Cagni risk free for 30 days. We've also put a link in the description along with that promo code if you want to check it out. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Have you ever judged somebody by their handwriting? Like you saw their handwriting and thought oh,

John Shull 34:34

I think it's fair to say that I have. But on the other side of that I am one of those people that always gets complimented on my penmanship, which has always led me to believe that people must think that I cannot write well.

Nick VinZant 34:50

I do feel like there's a lot of compliments that people give you that maybe that they think that you're actually an idiot and I don't mean you but a lot of things that people will say it's like well did you think got was a moron.

John Shull 35:01

No, I mean, listen, I take it kind of personally, or at least I did. When somebody would, you know, stop in my office or wherever and say, You have really nice handwriting, but they always usually say that it's a gender identifiable. They're like, You have really nice handwriting for a man.

Nick VinZant 35:17

I don't actually now that I think about it, I don't really know any women that have bad handwriting. Every woman that I've ever known had good handwriting. I think because they think about things more than men do. Men are much more spontaneous. We're not going to think too far through something.

John Shull 35:37

If I really want to throw people off because I'm ambidextrous. All right, left handed, which is not as clean as my right hand.

Nick VinZant 35:45

Wait, you can write with both your right and left hand.

John Shull 35:48

Yeah, um, it's called ambidextrous.

Nick VinZant 35:52

Have you ever written two things at the same time, then? Can you write with both hands like that? That's called time saving there.

John Shull 36:00

I've actually never tried that. But I will get I will try it tomorrow. Not that it matters to anybody, but I will try it.

Nick VinZant 36:05

How can have you never tried it?

John Shull 36:09

I don't know. I just I've never thought hey, I'm gonna write down the same thing with the left and the right hand. I've never thought to do it,

Nick VinZant 36:15

you know, but you wouldn't have to you could make like, you could journal about your day on one hand and write a list of things you have to do tomorrow on the other. You read all those books about submarines? What good is it doing? You

John Shull 36:28

know what I had my top boss of my company last week?

Unknown Speaker 36:32

He's gonna get here we go. Here. We somehow

John Shull 36:36

somehow got onto the topic. He asked me if I if I was a reader. And I said, Yeah, I read quite a bit. He goes, Oh, what do you like? And that's spiraled downhill from there real fast. He is. I don't he was not like you. He was not impressed with my submarine. knowledge or the fact that I love submarine books.

Nick VinZant 36:57

You get one book per vehicle. One submarine book, one plane book. One car book. Can't be read that many books about cars. How quickly do you try to go through a grocery store though? Are you a linger? Are you like, Man, I know where it is. It's aisle 7/3. Shelf, I'm out of here.

John Shull 37:18

Well, this gives me a chance to to kind of avoid kudos. One of our probably within our first year of doing this podcast, you asked me a question. If like, how long do I spend eating dinner and I said, Oh an hour or whatever. I like to enjoy my meal. And you were like, you know, you, of course you jumped on me and you were like, and anyone out there that's listening. This will get this if you have children that are above newborn status. But it's like, once you have kids that start eating at the table with you, it's over. Like you just want to get in, get out and just move on with your day.

Nick VinZant 37:51

I don't like to eat around people. I eat by myself at the end of the day.

John Shull 37:56

I will I'm the same way it's actually become kind of a running joke in any shop I've ever worked at that. Oh, Sean's not going to eat today unless he goes into a closet somewhere and eats his lunch because I just I don't like eating in front of people. I just don't.

Nick VinZant 38:10

I agree. I don't like eating in front of people either. I like to eat at the end of the day, no matter what. Like, I don't care how late it is. Even when I work nights. I'm not eating dinner at six o'clock. Like I'm gonna wait until like, midnight when I get home to eat dinner. And I want to do it by myself.

John Shull 38:28

Yeah, I'm the same way. I'm the same exact way to wrap up that story. Moving fast forward now to today, John. I'm gonna tell you I just tried to get in and out. And if I if I don't have to take my kids, that's a bonus. Oh, I

Nick VinZant 38:42

don't think that I've ever spent more than not including waiting in line. Not including waiting in line. I don't think that I have honestly ever spent more than 15 minutes in a grocery store. Even if I'm shopping for like the week. not fucking around, man. Like, I know what I want is what I'm getting. Let's go.

John Shull 39:03

That's pretty fast. I tried to put it out an hour. That's my, that's my time limit.

Nick VinZant 39:07

You got to spend an hour in the grocery store.

John Shull 39:10

I mean, maybe maybe half an hour to an hour. I mean, if if I'm by myself, I'm gonna put a half an hour if I have the family with me, it's an hour.

Nick VinZant 39:19

See, I don't look around when I go to the grocery store though. Like, I'm not like shopping for things. I'm not changing my mind. Like, I need bread. All right, that one. I'm not like comparing nutritional labels and thinking looking at the ingredients and reading the thing if it's like, made by elves in the forest, and this one's made by whatever.

John Shull 39:40

I mean, I still appreciate a good supermarket. So I'll actually like pick different stores to go to and I do like looking around I do.

Nick VinZant 39:49

What food item are you going to kind of peruse. really check it out. Be like hey, for example, like I'm going to do chips and snacks like I'm going to look at E Different kinds of snack.

John Shull 40:02

I mean, I mean, the deli counter, that's always you have to take a look see what's in meats? You know, the meat counter?

Nick VinZant 40:11

Really, I don't go to those either of those.

John Shull 40:15

I mean, I mean, so what do you eat?

Nick VinZant 40:17

I don't go to any I don't go to any counters. I'm getting the stuff out of the like the the bins. Right? Like, I'm not going over there to talk to Steve the butcher. Do you know the butchers first name and the grocery store? Do you know a butcher by name?

Unknown Speaker 40:31

I do. Yes. How many?

John Shull 40:36

I mean, I know their names. It doesn't mean that we're like acquaintances. But I mean, I can name I can think of three names right now. At the same grocery store or different grocery stores. Same chain, but at separate stores.

Nick VinZant 40:49

Do you like do you walk up to you like, Hey, what are the names? Give me a name. I need a name for reference.

John Shull 40:54

Brian is probably the most common one. And he works. It's called Meijer, throw it out there at Meijer the one right by my house here in Michigan. And he knows kind of when I go grow. I go grocery shopping the same day every week.

Nick VinZant 41:10

Okay, and you're like, hey, but do you introduce do you come up to him? Does he come up to you? How does this work? Are you like, Hey, Brian.

John Shull 41:17

I mean, it's sometimes it's 5050. Some sometimes if he's in a good mood, he'll be like, Hey, John, what can I get you today? And then he'll, you know, he'll already know here. He knows what he wants. I don't have to tell him but

Nick VinZant 41:30

10 pounds of beef.

John Shull 41:33

No, no, that I get out of the bins. But you know, like, if I want like a different kind of steak or a piece of fish or something. You know, it's, yeah.

Nick VinZant 41:43

Maybe I'm antisocial. I don't talk to anyone. But I'm also of the opinion that no one wants to talk to me. And I consider it a mutual thing. You don't want to talk to me. I don't want to talk to you. Let's just go.

John Shull 41:55

I have learned as I've gotten older that I kind of put a mask on as I was younger, like I really am an introvert. Like, I don't really want to talk to people unless I want to talk to them. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 42:08

think most people are probably like that. They don't want to talk to people unless they want to talk to people. I mean, even people who want to talk to people, though. Anyway. I was trying to go somewhere. I didn't feel like it was getting anywhere. Oh, you ready? Get started your ShoutOuts

John Shull 42:23

gonna give some shout outs and then after that I have a it's either gonna go up in flames or you're actually going going to enjoy the segment. Oh, is it new? Um, yeah, it's new for us. It's not new in general, but it's something new that we've never tried before. But I think okay, you're gonna you're gonna hate it, but we'll see. We'll see. Okay, so, so, anyways, it's not that exciting, but the nicey sell it, sell it. The subject itself, I think you'll hate but I'm curious to see if maybe you'll just play along. Anyways, let's give some shout outs here. We'll start with Sam Hogg. Two G's at the end of hogs. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 43:02

thought so. I thought so. There's not You're not going to find a lot of people who are named after like an animal. Hog. Good. Good. I don't know anybody that's really named after animals. That has an animal last name. Do you know anybody that has an animal last name?

John Shull 43:21

I mean, just for the sake of not having dead air on the podcast, I'm going to say no.

Unknown Speaker 43:26

Give it a second. Like, like, I

John Shull 43:28

don't know anyone with the last name, but like, I feel like I should know a moose or something.

Nick VinZant 43:33

I don't know. I don't know anybody who has an animal last name and not and has to be a common animal. Not like I'm actually named after the lower reticulated arachnid spider.

John Shull 43:47

Sort of spider. Do we know a spider?

Nick VinZant 43:49

The only one that I could possibly think of is maybe somebody with the last name beaver.

Unknown Speaker 43:54

Or deer. But I can't think

Nick VinZant 43:57

of anybody who has an animal last name.

John Shull 44:00

There is a baseball player. His name was Rob deer. I know that

Nick VinZant 44:03

but spelled like, you know a deer is one of those words like sweat and sweet that I really get confused as to how you spell deer.

Unknown Speaker 44:11

D R.

John Shull 44:12

Yeah, it was D E R. T E R. So as dir Yeah, that's also weird to say. D E R.

Unknown Speaker 44:24

It just doesn't really make sense. Now I

Nick VinZant 44:26

can see an ar e like John Deere. Let's look this up people with animal last names. Is there anybody?

Unknown Speaker 44:37

Oh,

Nick VinZant 44:39

come on. Come on. We should have known this. There's a couple Tony Hawk.

Unknown Speaker 44:45

Michael Yeah. Michael J. Fox.

John Shull 44:51

Okay. Okay. Yeah, Tony. I mean, I don't think it's much bigger than them to

Nick VinZant 44:57

know bird. I don't count Bert Larry Bird

John Shull 45:02

Oh jesus yeah we suck it's actually a lot of

Nick VinZant 45:05

them it's one of those things you don't really like no Martin technically Martin anybody with last name Martin would be a Martin is a fox. Okay, we should say this we're not a top five that's a great one top five people with animal names

John Shull 45:21

Hey Thank you Sam OG for leading us down that five minute pass.

Nick VinZant 45:24

He doesn't count because he had an extra G trying to be fucking cool.

John Shull 45:27

Oh boy. All right, Coulter King. Liam Weatherall. John Scofield fantastic first name actually a new a Jimmy Scofield.

Unknown Speaker 45:38

Okay. Doesn't tell us all about it.

John Shull 45:40

Charlie Awana mocker. Devon Napoli, Molly Wilkinson. Brendan Murphy. Dylan Ray. And Edward. Hollis.

Nick VinZant 45:53

That is Dylan Murphy's name always have a burp at the front of it or was that just for that one

Unknown Speaker 45:57

specific.

John Shull 46:00

There get the sound

Nick VinZant 46:01

of a bird. A fart is funny, but I can't I hate the sound of a bird.

John Shull 46:09

I actually I don't mind either. I mean whatever. You know you do you write

Nick VinZant 46:13

only like a nasty like if you're drinking a nasty beer. And that's like swill beer and you get that giant Bert built up. It's like, oh, otherwise, I hate the sound of a bird. That's disgusting sound to me.

John Shull 46:26

If you ever burped while, like inhaling beer or a pop or something?

Unknown Speaker 46:31

No, I'm not a burper I don't think that I burnt more than three times a week.

John Shull 46:39

What are you as spitter? Swaller.

Nick VinZant 46:44

I just don't burp that much. I'm not a burping kind of guy. But are you a burger? Are you more of a burger or Florida?

John Shull 46:52

I mean, let's be honest. I'm both.

Nick VinZant 46:55

Yeah. So all kinds of gas cars. Every which way I

John Shull 47:00

got my armpits, my nostrils all orifices, happens.

Nick VinZant 47:05

No surprise. There's not more sounds that come out of your nose or your ears. Really? Right. Like if you think that's all that's going on in your body. You think that sounds are just coming out of any open area.

Unknown Speaker 47:15

Can you hear me blink?

Nick VinZant 47:18

If I blink right next to the microphone. Can you hear that?

John Shull 47:21

Oh, yeah, it sounds amazing. You can hear it. No, you can't hear it.

Nick VinZant 47:25

You blink next to the microphone. See if I can hear it. Try to I could hear something. Did you bump your face against it? No. Maybe you're a more powerful blinker than i Okay. Well, man, how does? How could anybody listen to this?

John Shull 47:44

I have no idea. But I guarantee you that whoever is still listening, this is like, Oh, can I hear myself?

Unknown Speaker 47:51

Right? It's a good question. I

John Shull 47:53

mean, we're not Award Nominated for no reason here.

Nick VinZant 47:57

Oh, that's right. I don't think we've told the people.

John Shull 48:00

I don't think we have either. You guys I feel I feel like you're a better presenter than me.

Nick VinZant 48:05

So we were nominated for best interview podcast. It's the second time we've been nominated for best interview podcast. We're gonna lose. We always lose. But we've been nominated.

John Shull 48:17

But I mean lesson we're up against. I mean, I mean, these are serious awards. Right? The signal awards. Yeah. You can still vote I think to the 14th. Their viewer voted upon. I mean, we're going up against John Stuart. I think Tina Fey's in there, Stephen Yun. Oh, so, human

Nick VinZant 48:37

Yan, Netflix person. We're up against like, well, Netflix.

John Shull 48:41

Well, he's actually Glenn from The Walking Dead. That's where people know him.

Nick VinZant 48:45

So they got some famous guy to host their thing. Yeah,

John Shull 48:49

but I used to want to finish last. That's all I just I just want to finish above one other podcasts that has 50 people working behind it. That probably makes six figures a year. And I just want to not finish last. The load

Nick VinZant 49:01

the most recently I checked is that we weren't in last place which is shocking to me. Julia, Julia Louie Dreyfus is on there. Right? Like, how could we ever beat those people? If I was them and saw us on that show? Last on the list? I'd be embarrassed. I'd be like who is these?

John Shull 49:22

Oh, is that why Jon Stewart took his podcast off there. That one

Nick VinZant 49:26

must be right. Like wouldn't you want to take it like oh, it's me. Oh, like imagine if you're a Kevin Hart like Kevin Hart. We're up against Kevin. Oh, yeah. Kevin Hart's on there. And it's like Kevin Hart. Jon Stewart. The guy that you just mentioned about The Walking Dead, the lady from Seinfeld and then like us.

John Shull 49:46

I mean, I I've stuck with this podcast for six years because you do great work fine. We do great work.

Nick VinZant 49:53

We do do. I mean it is like Well,

John Shull 49:55

wait. Oh yeah, it is five years isn't it at all It is yeah, well, well we're on our way to six so and you still look as handsome as that first episode that I couldn't see your face on? No. All right, so you're gonna hate this the more I think about this, this was a terrible idea, but it has this jump into it. And it goes along with the theme of our top five.

Nick VinZant 50:21

Okay, but now let me ask you this. Now this is a candle of the month episode, if I hate this completely and totally Are you willing to bet your candle of the month on it?

John Shull 50:31

To everybody else except you? Yes. Okay. Okay. I'm glad you I'm glad you remember those candle the month I have a special Blue Key candle. Anyways. Alright, so I everyone's aware of the Taylor Swift Travis Kelce. I don't know love story that you want to call it. So it got me thinking. We always talk about celebrity nicknames for couples? Do we actually do we actually know them?

Nick VinZant 51:02

Okay, you're gonna quiz me on Celebrity. This is one of the things in the universe that I care. Absolutely nothing about.

John Shull 51:08

I know. It's just what, which is why it's so amazing.

Nick VinZant 51:11

And I am personally of the opinion that this relationship and most celebrity relationships are completely fake. I don't think that they're real. I think that their public relations relationships. 100%, right. Especially like, oh, look, they got a new relationship. And they also got an album coming out. And they got a movie coming out, like, oh, how does that happen? I don't think most of them are real at all.

John Shull 51:37

Well, I'll tell you what, if you hate the first one, I'll go into my camera in the month but let's start here was probably the most famous one. Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore what were they called? For their near decade of dating each other

Speaker 4 51:52

Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore. I have no idea. Asked me.

Nick VinZant 52:00

Oh, that's not any good. Sound like Bennifer I remember that one. That one was good. Ash was not very good. I'm gonna give it a one out of five score as that's going to be a two.

John Shull 52:12

All right. How about this one? Speaking of Brad Pitt, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie,

Nick VinZant 52:18

oh, Brangelina. Everybody knows that. That's a five salon now.

John Shull 52:22

You're actually having more fun with us than I thought you would. So I'm going to keep rolling here. Kevin Federline, whom at one point in my life, I thought he was the luckiest man alive in Britney Spears.

Nick VinZant 52:35

Go I don't know, K fed. But that doesn't make any sense.

John Shull 52:39

That was his nickname, Federline.

Nick VinZant 52:41

Oh, that's terrible. That's a one. That's a one.

John Shull 52:45

If you haven't seen Britney Spears lately, by the way, and you're into celebrity gossip, she looks like somebody that needs some serious help.

Nick VinZant 52:53

Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's gotta be a tough life. Man. I feel bad for people who are really famous and then they kind of grow up in a world not knowing who they are. What's going on. I feel bad for people like that. Glad you make fun of them.

John Shull 53:07

I didn't say a word. I'm thinking about it. You're thinking about it. Well, not going out to dinner with her. I tell you that. Unless she's checked for knives. Anyways. Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes

Nick VinZant 53:22

I don't know. I don't know. I can't even

John Shull 53:24

think a lot of them. Probably the coolest dual nickname Tomcat.

Unknown Speaker 53:31

Oh, but that's

Nick VinZant 53:34

I both understand that. It's like okay, but that's like when you went to the most obvious place and you went such to an obvious place that it made it bad. I'm gonna give that a 1.5 because I hate it because I would never be like what's Tomcat doing?

John Shull 53:48

Okay, fine. The last one here. Taylor Swift. Encounter Kennedy.

Unknown Speaker 53:57

K Swift. Taco. That's okay. As a five.

Nick VinZant 54:05

Give that. Have you ever been legitimately interested in any celebrity gossip? Like you were actually interested in it?

John Shull 54:14

I mean, only in this the celebrity realms that interest me like no, not the pop stuff. Not the not the music, not the models, you know, wrestling sports. I mean, like last week, when they announced that they had arrested to pox killer. I mean, oh, yeah. I mean, that that's not gossip, because it actually happened. Right? But I mean, it's kind of become a circus since he was murdered, you know, searching for his killer and all that.

Nick VinZant 54:40

That's that's like 30 years ago, but did they get big? He's killer. Big he's

John Shull 54:46

killer. I think they're still looking for babies killer.

Unknown Speaker 54:50

That's kind of crazy.

Nick VinZant 54:51

I've always thought about when people like are killed when in regards to crimes. I've never understood how police can not solve it. And I've never understood how they can solve it. It's amazing to me both regards.

John Shull 55:03

I mean, I think it having been in the industry that you were in and that I'm still currently in when you talk to police officers, and detectives, some of them like they know sometimes who did it, but you just can't piece the evidence. Yeah. Right. And you and you have to prove it obviously in a court of law here in America. And yeah,

Unknown Speaker 55:24

okay. All right. Are you ready?

John Shull 55:26

I have by the way, I just want to say that did not go as terrible as I thought it would. So kudos to you for not railroading it from the get. Yeah, let's

Nick VinZant 55:32

just long as we never do it again. Fair enough. Is there any other ones that were really good? There's got to be another one. You didn't have benefactor? Who was benefiting as

John Shull 55:40

well because you already you said it. But it was Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. I had Abra Levine and check Kroger. Which how in the hell did that ever happen? It

Nick VinZant 55:53

was in Chad Kroger

Unknown Speaker 55:54

and like a religious band.

John Shull 55:57

No, man, he was the lead singer of Nickelback.

Nick VinZant 56:00

Oh, I get him confused with a guy for creed.

John Shull 56:05

Creed also wasn't a religious band man.

Nick VinZant 56:11

Creed wasn't a religious banned. I think it was dude. Religious it's named creed

John Shull 56:17

to stop it. I'm gonna check Kroger and Avril Levine's nickname was Chevrolet. Or sure real?

Nick VinZant 56:23

Is creed, a real Christian band?

Unknown Speaker 56:27

Oh, he's pissed about it. Yeah, he's

Nick VinZant 56:30

pissed about it.

John Shull 56:31

That's some gossip that you probably fell for.

Unknown Speaker 56:33

Yeah, that's the very first

Nick VinZant 56:35

thing that he says that's like gonna be on his tombstone. Not a Christian band. Like, Well, dude, don't be making lyrics like that and have the name creed and then expect not right. Like, okay, if you're going to walk like a duck and talks like a duck Don't get mad when people call you a duck. And he's all pissed because people call him a

John Shull 56:53

duck. Anyway, okay. He's had a tough life to.

Nick VinZant 56:57

A lot of people have had tough lives. I don't ever want to hear okay, I'm gonna go on a rant. Now that you said this. I don't ever want to hear from any celebrity, whether they're an Actor, a Musician and athlete. Anybody talking about how they work so hard. It's easy to work damn hard when you're making a lot of money. What's tough is working hard and not making a lot of money. I don't ever want to see some celebrity talk about how hard they're working. Like there's a difference between hard work and hard work. Like hard work is having two kids making 50 grand a year.

Unknown Speaker 57:27

That's fucking hard work.

John Shull 57:29

paid for and brought to you by the Nick VinZant for 2024 campaign

Nick VinZant 57:33

said about this. I just hate that every time some celebrities like oh, it's just you know, we're all working so hard. It's pretty easy to work hard when you make 10 million a year. That's not hard work. There's a difference between working hard and hard work.

John Shull 57:46

I will never forget. And this is a 32nd story. months within the pandemic. Justin Timberlake was quoted as saying, I don't understand how all these parents do it being apparent 24 hours a day is tougher than tough. I

Nick VinZant 58:05

don't think like that's probably got to be some of the hardest stuff that anybody has to do is making between like 25 and 100 grand being a parent like That's hard work. I don't want to ever hear somebody like oh it's such hard work on this movie said we got paid 20 million so shut the fuck up.

John Shull 58:21

Can we get my last show going because I gotta cancel the month to get

Nick VinZant 58:25

to the horses first

Speaker 4 58:27

to know now I could do it again. There wasn't a whole lot to it

Nick VinZant 58:40

I think my heart Let me try let me try it's time the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again.

Unknown Speaker 58:53

candle of the month.

John Shull 58:56

Here we go. It's a very spooky candle. I don't know what I was trying to do there.

Nick VinZant 59:02

I don't know how did you go Hispanic, he went Hispanic in the middle of that.

John Shull 59:09

Anyways, head over to the magic Candle Company. I think I've talked about these folks before they do a lot of themed candles all varying praises. One thing I really like before I get to the scent that I'm going to say for candle a month is you can usually get most of their candles in small large and get rooms braids you get wax melts. Oils, so you just don't have to get candles but regardless my candle the month this month with a being October pumpkin king by the magic Candle Company and one thing that this candle has that I've always wanted to find in a candle that I have not been able to find till now is a pumpkin candle that smells like pumpkin puree

Nick VinZant 1:00:00

What are most other pumpkin candles smell like?

John Shull 1:00:02

That can be a little dry like It's like this is like having somebody just rub pumpkin puree over your body over and over and over again.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:11

Is that good?

John Shull 1:00:14

I mean hey, well, I actually getting down

Unknown Speaker 1:00:17

at the house Jeff. Anyways.

John Shull 1:00:21

Check them out magic candle company.com I think they are an online store only. But they have all kinds of deals, especially with the holiday coming up and Thanksgiving after that. And they have a lot of they've I don't know if they've actually purchased the rights to be able to sell some of these candles, but they have like Stranger Things line they have like Hocus Pocus, some of the horror movie franchises but you know, to me, nothing is better than good old pumpkin puree and a candle.

Nick VinZant 1:00:52

What is a horror movie candle

Unknown Speaker 1:00:54

smell like?

John Shull 1:00:55

What you know, like like, I actually don't know if they have it this year, but I know last year, they have like a Jason Vorhees scent, which was like piney and Woody, because you know, that's where the first Friday the 13th

Nick VinZant 1:01:07

Ah, so I didn't know his theme candles. Is that a big business?

John Shull 1:01:13

Yeah, of course. I mean, themed anything, right? I mean, that's how Etsy that's how Etsy shops make all their money, I think is because they illegally make products with certain bicolor likenesses on them. And, you know, that's, that's, that's it.

Nick VinZant 1:01:26

I really don't understand how you can burn that many candles in your nose like still works all the time. Like, I would think that you it'd be like listening to music that allowed volume all the time. And I would just I would think that you'd be deaf. The smell of death.

John Shull 1:01:41

I mean, to be fair, you know, when when when I when I got COVID That really did a number on my senses. But one thing it seemed not to touch after a while. That was the first time I've had it, by the way, which was the worst was my smell. It came back after like, a month. And now I have like Spidey smell.

Nick VinZant 1:02:02

What did you do without being able to smell? What did the candle kind of sewer do? Because they've been stripped of your superpowers. What do you have? Because I don't buy

John Shull 1:02:10

did you still think I messed up? I don't think I missed a podcast during all that.

Nick VinZant 1:02:15

Oh, so you just made up candle of the month so you just lied to the people? No,

John Shull 1:02:20

this was two plus years ago. I don't think I was doing candle the month two plus years ago.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:25

Huh? Busted.

John Shull 1:02:28

Okay, yeah, yes, this has been a fabrication since day one.

Nick VinZant 1:02:32

It's all a lie. The main thing about candles? Um, are you okay? Are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 1:02:40

I am and I know you hate it. You do not let you you are not into this, but I think it's going to be a good one.

Nick VinZant 1:02:45

Okay, so our number five is top five tailors. But we're breaking our rule. And then it can be tailor or the first name or the last name.

John Shull 1:02:55

Which I always thought you could anyways, I didn't

Nick VinZant 1:02:57

realize you've gotten mad at me before because I did the last name. Probably because

John Shull 1:03:02

you were talking shit about something I picked or something. Right.

Nick VinZant 1:03:06

Right. I also I always like those kinds of rules, the ones that only apply to this specific set of circumstances that I'm okay with at that time.

John Shull 1:03:13

Yeah, I mean, come on, man. Okay, it's what we're doing here. All right. All right. My number five, you got to put her on the list. And that's Elizabeth Taylor.

Nick VinZant 1:03:22

You have her at number five.

John Shull 1:03:24

I do. I'm telling you. I think there's a lot of tailors out there that you're not thinking of.

Nick VinZant 1:03:31

I have her higher on the list for a reason that I'll explain later, but I have her higher. I think that five is obviously too low. My number five is honestly the guy that I would say is kind of symbolic of a lot of tailors. He's somebody that you've heard of, but you're not sure exactly which one that one is. It's Taylor Lautner The Wolverine from Twilight. Or the Wolfman, werewolf,

John Shull 1:03:57

Michigan zone Taylor Lautner. Oh god. I actually don't have him on my list.

Nick VinZant 1:04:05

Even though it's Michigan zone, you're gonna make a big deal about his Michigan zone and then be like, Nah, we don't he's not that gris.

John Shull 1:04:12

So we've had we've done less like this what name is a four and we've had, you know, six singular movie or franchise actors on there, or actresses, but other than that, I don't know what he's done. Other than Twilight.

Nick VinZant 1:04:25

I think he's done a couple of things, but nothing that was ever anything like that, but a lot of people really struggle with that. I think there's a lot of people whenever you talk about any kind of franchise whether it's a movie or a TV show, it's really hard to do multiple things I think that you kind of get synonymous with that and then nobody wants to touch you.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:45

Like this podcast Yeah. Never for

John Shull 1:04:51

man see, so this is where it gets extremely tough man. I mean, it is. You are splitting hairs with tailors after after really? I In the top five. So my number four, I'm gonna put James Taylor on the list at number four.

Nick VinZant 1:05:05

That's who I have to I have James Taylor at number four. One of the, like a happy songwriter. All of his songs are happy songs.

John Shull 1:05:13

To me, not a whole lot different in terms of what he contributed to the music industry than say, like a Jimmy Buffett. They're both well known for some of their anthems. They've been around forever. I mean, obviously, Buffett, he, you know, did all the things in the Caribbean but very similar ask artists to me, but you have to you have to put James Taylor on the list.

Nick VinZant 1:05:34

But Jimmy Buffett is more famous than James Taylor.

John Shull 1:05:38

I yeah, I would agree with that.

Nick VinZant 1:05:39

Yeah, his songs at least, but they were both kind of that same musical style of like, didn't weren't really writing about hard times. They were writing about having a good time. James Taylor was like a musical, Mr. Rogers.

John Shull 1:05:53

Oh, my God. Alright, my number three, I actually have two people at my number three. Okay. And that's going to be Roger Taylor and Taylor Hawkins. Both drummers, one from Queen and one of the Foo Fighters.

Speaker 5 1:06:07

Also both people who I don't know who they are. Okay. Well, it sounds like you. I don't know

Nick VinZant 1:06:14

who Roger Taylor or Taylor Hawkins is?

John Shull 1:06:18

Well learn about the Foo Fighters or, or queen then I guess,

Nick VinZant 1:06:23

queen, I'm going to look up Roger Taylor. I actually thought Roger Taylor was a bond guy. I mean,

John Shull 1:06:30

you should at least know who Taylor Hawkins was.

Nick VinZant 1:06:33

Don't come to me with drummers, man. Come on. Now. There's very, you very, very rarely, very rarely, no more than two people in a band. It's a big deal if you know more than one really.

John Shull 1:06:49

Sure, but I also think that like these weren't normal musicians like these are these these are legends of music.

Nick VinZant 1:06:57

I don't think I'm gonna put Taylor Hawkins is a legend of music. Not somebody that I would know who they were Foo Fighters. I only know Dave Grohl. Okay, how about this? How many people can you name in a band? And I'll go through the list. Guns and Roses.

John Shull 1:07:14

slash Axl.

I mean, those who are those or anyone else in the band,

Nick VinZant 1:07:20

I think Duff but that might have been another band. You to.

John Shull 1:07:27

Oh, I mean, obviously, I'm not a big YouTube fan. But bonobo and the guy with the weird sunglasses and the soul patch.

Nick VinZant 1:07:37

I think his name is the edge. I could you imagine introducing yourself as the edge? Like no, no, it's not even a nickname. It's just I'm the edge. Like

John Shull 1:07:49

at the that sphere in Las Vegas. That thing looks pretty dope. I

Nick VinZant 1:07:52

think looks pretty sweet way to see a concert. Yeah, that looks like a good but okay. Would you agree with my sentiment that that's like, there's very few bands that you know to people very, very rare. Well, you're gonna know three of them.

John Shull 1:08:06

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But that's not really the argument here. The argument is Roger Taylor and Taylor Hawkins. They are legends of music.

Nick VinZant 1:08:16

No, yeah. And you know, they did all that stuff.

John Shull 1:08:19

With What's your net worth was just stopped back

Nick VinZant 1:08:22

on who is it's collaborated with? What's its face?

John Shull 1:08:26

What's your number three

Nick VinZant 1:08:27

Lawrence Taylor. Number 56. For the New York Giants. Okay, so

John Shull 1:08:32

that he's my number two. Okay, strictly because he changed the game of professional football American professional football forever. He is. He's a top 10 player ever, in my opinion.

Nick VinZant 1:08:46

Yeah, I've heard he's a really good player. I know. He also did a lot of cutting drugs, a

John Shull 1:08:50

lot of drugs, a lot of drugs.

Nick VinZant 1:08:54

He's kind of just leading up to my overall argument for my number one, but that's so now I think I know who your number one is going to be. But who's your number two?

John Shull 1:09:02

He was my number two.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:04

Oh, my number two is Taylor Swift.

John Shull 1:09:09

That's my number one.

Nick VinZant 1:09:11

I I would agree with you if you took pulse of the moment. Taylor Swift is the most famous Taylor by a long margin. I think that she is levels above. Lawrence Taylor, James Taylor, the two guys from a bands that you talked about miles above Taylor Lautner. But my number one is Elizabeth Taylor. Because I think that people who were really famous in the past, were levels above fame that we have now. Because there wasn't like 50 movies or a whole bunch of songs. Like there's only a couple of things. So whatever came out like you were really famous.

John Shull 1:09:50

I don't disagree with that. I do think in 50 years, 100 years, though, when we look back on, you know, like the Beyonce is a Taylor Swift to the world. are of the generation I mean that they're gonna be remembered like as as an Elizabeth Taylor. I don't know the criteria you're judging them on is correct, but it's fine. It's, you know,

Nick VinZant 1:10:14

I mostly just refused to put Taylor Swift is number one.

John Shull 1:10:17

I know you do use Swifty

Nick VinZant 1:10:19

I don't understand that have you ever been really into like a celebrity?

John Shull 1:10:25

Not not where I would like to classify myself as a you know, as a nickname now friends will tell you that I was in love with Tom Brady at one point in my life, which is probably true. Yeah. But I'm I'm also going to say that that was just me being an immature, early 20 something old. But that's probably it. I mean, wrestle. I mean, wrestlers the rock stone cold. Sure, but like, you know, I would never paint my fate. Well, I mean, maybe I would paint my face, but it doesn't matter. So I guess maybe, maybe,

Nick VinZant 1:11:00

huh? Do you have anything in your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:11:03

Not really. I mean, I put Taylor Kish in there. Friday Night Lights, several of these. He was also in that that terrible Disney movie that bombed out the Prince of Persia or whatever it was Prince or John Hart or something to Mars? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. John Korea, it doesn't matter. But no, that's kind of it. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 1:11:25

don't have anybody. I think there's a president, Zachary Taylor. The other one that I noticed is the game who was a rapper, but his real name is Taylor.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:35

So Oh, okay. Yeah, I would put the game

Nick VinZant 1:11:38

on there. I would actually put the game above Taylor Lautner. If and if I could get away

John Shull 1:11:42

with it? Sure, well, we'll allow it the game's big

Nick VinZant 1:11:47

deal. Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless, I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. Doesn't have to be anything big. Just a couple of quick words really helps us out. And we've also put a link in the description. If you want to vote for us for the signal awards, we would really appreciate it our goal is just not to get last place. We just don't want to be completely last. And let us know what you think or who you think rather, is the number one most famous Taylor. I do believe that people in the past were more famous because there simply just wasn't that many people. There wasn't as many options. But it's probably Taylor Swift. It really probably is. Although I think this is my personal opinion. I think that the era of this celebrity is coming to an end. Because we're all kind of sick of this, because it's inescapable in a lot of ways. And I would not be surprised if the Taylor Swift Travis Kelce relationship is what finally pushes us over the edge.

Solar Weather Researcher Dr. Erika Palmerio

Space Weather lights up the night sky but it could also throw us into darkness. That’s why Heliophysicist Dr. Erika Palmerio studies the sun. She’s trying to find a way to predict the next big solar event. We talk Solar Flares, Coronal Mass Ejections and Radiation Storms. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things About Fall.

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Pointless: 52:05

Top 5: 01:17:11

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Interview with Solar Weather Researcher Dr. Erika Palmerio

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, solar weather, and fall, y'all.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 0:21

Space weather is the weather in space. And it's completely, totally driven by the sun, we can see the solar cycle in the measurements of the cosmic rays. Because when the sun is less active, so At solar minimum, we have a lot more cosmic rays coming. One of the biggest questions in our field is what would happen if the current Dawn event happened today,

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies the sun, specifically, what's happening on the sun, and how it creates the solar weather that can have such a big impact on our entire planet. This is Helio physicist, Dr. Erica Paul Merio. Is space weather like I think of weather like, or is it really kind of something completely different?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 1:31

Yes, base weather is basically we do more or less the same things. We have to do forecasts, we have different conditions, we have nice space weather conditions, we have more disturbed space weather conditions. So yeah, they can be pretty much compared.

Nick VinZant 1:48

So when we talk about like space weather, what is essentially,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 1:52

exactly so Space weather is the weather in space, and it's completely, totally driven by the sun, but it's not this static ball of gas, of ionized gas, I must I should say, which is known as plasma. So it just not the static ball that is just there. In space, it goes through a lot of activity. And actually, the activity of the Sun is dictated by what we call the solar cycle. So every 11 years, we will have the sun alternating between a state of being a bit more quiet, which we call the solar minimum. And and the state of being much more active, which we call solar maximum. And solar activity manifests through things such as eruptions. And parts of eruptions are for example, solar flares, or coronal mass ejections, CMEs. And other phenomenon. So for example, we have the solar wind streaming all the time from the sun continuously. And all of these things that happen on the sun can obviously affect other objects in the solar system, including Earth. What is it

Nick VinZant 3:11

though? Like, is it radiation? Is it just pure energy coming at us? Like, what is the thing that is happening? I guess?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 3:20

Yes. So and now it's going to be a pretty pretty long conversation, but bear with me and please feel free to stop me at any point. So for example, when we have a solar eruption, we have some magnetic structure, magnetic bundle of magnetic fields that is there that somehow becomes unstable. So solar flare is this very rapid burst of energy on magnetic energy that we see as a very fast brightening on the sun that can last from a few minutes to a couple of hours. And from there, yes, we get radiation coming out in the in the solar system. And at the same time, we can have also a so called coronal mass ejection or CME coming out of the sun. And that's literally a cloud a huge cloud of plasma and magnetic fields that can be thrown in any direction. So sometimes it's going to miss us much sometimes it's going to directly impact us. Now from a flare, we can get radiation and also from a CME eruption when it's still very close to the sun. So it's the full of energy and can accelerate particles, we get this special particles that we call solar energetic particles, that are particles that are accelerated to such high energies that they are giving out a lot of radiation. So when if and when they impact us depending on how strong this level of radiation we have here we can have something that is called a radiation storm and That's what is actually dangerous for spacecraft in, in in space, because this radiation can damage their electronics. And we have had occasions or like some episodes or losing some instruments, onboard some spacecraft or losing a spacecraft altogether. And also this radiation storms, this radiation is very dangerous for asteroids, which also connects me to the next point. So Earth has its own magnetic field that generates this bubble of magnetic production that we call the magneto sphere. Now, the magneto sphere is if you look at it now, let's try to imagine it's basically a bubble that is stretched enormously on one side and the side on which is stretched, it's the side that points away from the sun. And that's because we have the solar wind that I mentioned before coming all the time towards us, us and stretching these magnetic fields away from the sun. It's basically the same concept as if you are blowing your hair with a hairdryer and you will have the hair going on on one side, right?

Nick VinZant 6:15

I was imagining like somebody drawing a tennis ball, like when they draw like the wind going over. And it's like that's how I would imagine it.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 6:22

Yes, exactly, exactly, something like that. So now for example, the but inside this bubble, we have a lot of production from Earth's magnetic field itself right. Now when we have a coronal mass ejection coming towards us, which are these huge, huge clouds of plasma magnetic field, they're their own magnetic field, obviously. And when the magnetic field coming from a CME is pointing instead, southward, and it's hitting Earth's magnetosphere. Something, a process called magnetic reconnection happens where the lines merge and then separate, which means that Earth's magnetosphere will literally open on the day side, the magnetic field will be thrown up back towards the night side. And we have extra particles and all the solar wind materials from the Sun that can flow straight into the poles, which is also what gave us Aurora, which is the I might I mean, at least in my opinion, it's the most beautiful spectacle that can come out of solar activity. And I think it's the only visual literally visual, you know, in in, at wavelengths that our eyes can see, it's the only visual manifestation of space weather. But what else can come when when I'm coronal mass ejection with a south magnetic south board, my pointing magnetic field comes towards us is that we get all these extra particles or extra currents coming in. So we will have elevated currents on ground, which can disrupt things like power, power lines, and energy, transformers, all these technology, things that we are so accustomed to right now, but there is no direct effect on human health on the ground.

Nick VinZant 8:25

So it really kind of like the only thing it could really do to us is kind of like knock out our electronics, which would then cause global chaos.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 8:33

Yes. And one other kind of store that we can add is called a radio blackout, which means that on the day side, radio waves cannot transmit properly.

Nick VinZant 8:46

So there's basically when we get down to it, right, like the solar wind or solar flare and a CME.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 8:52

Yes, these are the main the main things that we have to be afraid of. And obviously solar flares and CMEs are what accelerate solar energetic particles.

Nick VinZant 9:03

So if we didn't have that magnetic field, are we just pictures? Are we just toast basically?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 9:11

I mean, probably yes. I mean, that's, that's literally what's happening on the moon. So the moon as no magnetic field of itself and no, and apart from probably something localized on the on the crust of the moon, but there is no large scale protection. So which is okay, apart from the fact that we couldn't breathe, because there is no atmosphere. But if we don't, okay, if we ignore the fact that we couldn't breathe, yeah, we can't have just someone on the wall stay in there. Because I mean, yes, when we have solar activity, there is enhancements of this radiation, but you know, the solar wind itself is streaming particle As continuously, which are not as energetic, but still, you know, over time radiation would still accumulate, I would say, How's our

Nick VinZant 10:09

magnetic field? Right? Like, there's no danger to our magnetic field or anything? Is there? I hope?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 10:15

No, however, our magnetic field is fine.

Nick VinZant 10:18

So if you were to kind of put like, on a scale of one to 10, with one being like, we don't know what this yellow looking ball in the sky is to 10, we've got this whole thing figured out. Where do you think that we would be kind of in our knowledge of what's going on with the sun?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 10:35

On the sun? I would say six or seven, maybe, let's say six and a half, there is really a lot to still discover,

Nick VinZant 10:45

I guess what's going on with this? I don't know if that's a good question or not. But like, I have no idea what the sun really is, like I get it, but I have no clue what's really going on up there.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 10:59

It's a middle aged star, which means that it's a deep space of burning hydrogen into helium, we can think about this on a bit like an onion, we have three major layers in the inside, which is called the solar interior, and then three layers of on the outside that we call the solar atmosphere. So in the inside, we have the nucleus, which is where all these fusion reactions happen. So when we're burning hydrogen into helium, then we have the Radiative Zone, which is where the energy that is produced with these reactions is radiating outwards, then we have the convection zone, which is where this energy is moved, moves upward outwards through convective motions, where convective motion is basically like water boiling, where we have called stuff going down, hot stuff going up, or am I getting it the other way, whatever. Anyway, we are this convective motions. And then we get to the atmosphere, where, as I said before, the lower lowest layer, which is the one we can see with our eyes protected eyes is the photosphere. Then we have the chromosphere, which is another layer that is kind of low in the sun, and then we add the corona, which is the outermost layer of the solar atmosphere. And it's kind of giant. Like we we normally like even if we look at places, for example, away 30 solar radii, so 30 times the radius of the sun, we still kind of we still call that area the corona. So it's like a very, the sun has a gigantic atmosphere. And then at some point, we will have this transition from the corona to the solar wind, even if obviously, the solar wind is formed, much lower at the sun, but we and then at some point we will have probably after Mercury's orbit, what we call interplanetary space, but then also after the planets, the sun is still influencing all the system and actually the entire sphere of influence of the sun, in terms of solar wind, or you know in terms of like what we study in either physics, which is the subject of studying the sun and its environment. All these bubble is called the heliosphere. Literally the solar sphere, which is not as big as for example, the sphere of influence of sun of the sun's gravity. So for example, a lot of times like when you talk about the solar system like depends on what you're talking about, because the sun's gravity as an influence much farther away. So for example, we know that the comments are born in the Oort cloud. That's way outside of the heliosphere but the sphere of influence of the solar wind so where the solar wind and meets the interstellar wind, that's what defines the heliosphere.

Nick VinZant 14:22

So that's our like, way past Pluto, basically.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 14:25

Oh, yeah. via a lot. Yes. thing that

Nick VinZant 14:29

always gets me whenever we like I hear about space is like this can't be real. All of this, like all this stuff can't be real, right.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 14:37

I know. It's so cool.

Nick VinZant 14:40

No, no,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 14:43

but we we have gone out of the heliosphere. We actually have measurements from outside of the heliosphere. We have had two spacecraft that I've left it or at least two spacecraft that have left it and we have data of which are the two Voyager spacecraft that were launched in 1977? I think that Voyager two so the second one crossed this line of dividing the solar influence from interstellar space in 2018. So pretty recently, and yes, so now we have two probes that are actually measuring the interstellar winds.

Nick VinZant 15:24

So how far like how many million miles is it out there before you finally get past it?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 15:29

So I can do it more or less in in terms of distance between the Earth and the Sun. So we are at 100 Plus, so probably 120, definitely more than 100 times the distance between Earth and the Sun. Whoa, that's pretty far out. And the distance between the Earth and the Sun is 150 million kilometres, which in miles I think should be someday like 98 million miles

Nick VinZant 16:01

ideate. So like, what's nine, what's nine times 109,800 9000 800 million miles, whatever that is.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 16:15

So almost 10 billion by it since that. That's a lot of mathematics for for a Friday. I know.

Nick VinZant 16:22

Right? Tuesday morning kind of conversation that a Friday. But like he's it's absolutely noticeable. Like if you're on this side of the heliosphere? You know it and once you're on that line, it's like crossing into the deep end or something.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 16:42

I mean, yeah. I mean, it's not like a very sharp line, we are the same at the division between the magnetosphere and the solar. So actually, you know, as we can think of Earth's magnetosphere separating us from the solar wind, it's a bit the same of within the case of the heliosphere being separated from the interstellar wind. But between all of these interfaces, there is something that we call a sheath region. So for example, the in the case of Earth protecting us from the solar wind, we have the magneto sheath. And for the heliosphere separating from the interstellar wind, we have the Helio sheath, so it's a region where materials from both sides are kind of mixing up. Because yeah, the division is not extremely sharp. So then

Nick VinZant 17:37

we are we ever affected by, you know, the solar winds or whatever from other stars?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 17:45

No, the only thing that we get from outer space is galactic cosmic rays, which are very, very energetic particles that are coming from who knows where the center of the galaxy some supernovae, you know, so things that are happening outside in the galaxy. So we have these rays that come to us. And actually, funnily enough, we can see the solar cycle in the measurements of the cosmic rays, because when the sun is less active, so At solar minimum, we have a lot more cosmic rays coming because this, the sun is not, you know, as energized. But during solar maximum, we measure a lot of less particles from the galaxy because the sun is shooting stuff out all the time. So it's kind of protecting us.

Nick VinZant 18:44

It's kind of like the weak like a weak spot in a force field. That's the way that I imagine right? Like, it's getting through the force field. It's solar minimum and not its solar maximum. Yes, exactly. Yes. I finally like I understood, I understood that. Like, I got that the math was too hard, but I got that far. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 19:07

Oh, we have lizard the idea. No, yes, sure. Let's go for it.

Nick VinZant 19:11

Biggest solar weather event we've ever been hit with. What did it do?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 19:18

I can talk for so long about this. Okay, the biggest I know the biggest but it happened so long ago. So Okay. Let's start. I have Yes. History. So if you have ever like if you're like a space weather enthusiast or if you know a bit about the sun, you have you must have heard about the Carrington Event, which was the literally the biggest storm geomagnetic storm that we had to date. Now this storm happened in September 1859. So that was a long time ago. Right? Um, so as soon as the Carrington event because Richard Carrington, this amateur British astronomer was looking at the sun when there was this big flare happening. So he actually did a drawing. Now side note, there was another astronomer who did look at the same event, Richard Hudson, but it's known as the Carrington Event nowadays. Now, as I said, solar eruptions, we have flares and CMEs, they can happen separately. So we can have only a flare we can have only a CME in in the most. In the strongest eruptions, they tend to happen together. So you have the bright new from the flare, and the cloud coming off the cloud. CMA coming off and eating us is what drives down a geomagnetic storm, which is when I said, we had the magnetosphere peeling and opening, we have all the particles coming in, we have Aurorus, we have extra currents going on on ground. So that's all parts of a geomagnetic storm. So the cloud that was released at the eruption that Richard Carrington, so via the flare, right to us pretty quickly, I think, in about one day. And we didn't have spacecraft, we didn't have satellites at that time, we astronauts were not even in the in the books, you know, for at least another 100 years. But what did we have in 1859? The Telegraph. So the telegraph system all around Europe, and the North in North America completely failed. So there are even reports of telegraph operators disconnecting the machines and the machines were still sending messages because of so much electric currents that were just roaming around on ground. Some operators got electric shocks, but apparently not. I mean, there are no reports of that. So that's great. But the point is that we have always asked like, what, so one of the one of the biggest questions in our field is what would happen if the current event happened today, because back in the day, the damage could then be that huge, because we only had the telegraph going on, as you know, as technological infrastructure. And as I said, there are absolute even from from this kind of event where Aurora was seen on TV in the Caribbean. So there are reports from Mexico, from Cuba, and people said that they could just read the newspaper at night because of the aurora lights were so bright. And but as I said, from something like that, there is absolutely no direct damage to the human body only to the infrastructure. And damage to humans can only be an indirect. But yeah, what would happen we don't know yet. I mean, we obviously can do research and speculations but something this strong has not happened since then. On Earth, but we have had some other interesting events. So for example, in, in in 72, I think that the eruption was in August, it was a very strong eruption with related with flare and CME, the CME arrived to us very quickly again, what was interesting to me about that event is that so the radiation storm, the one that comes very quickly because of these particles coming straight at us very quickly after an eruption was so strong that so this happened in April, not in August 1972. And we had Apollo, one Apollo, one of the Apollo's launching in April, and the other one, the next one launching in December of the same year. And it happened at this eruption happened during one of the Apollo launches or missions, the astronauts, it has been estimated they would have gotten enough radiation for actually getting cancer. So and you know, back in the day, we didn't know about, you know, the effects of space weather because again, it's it's such a new it's such a new field, actually, the first CMA observed was in 1970.

Nick VinZant 24:36

Can we predict them at all?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 24:40

So that's what we are trying. And that's what space weather research, the field of space weather in research does. And at the moment, we cannot really predict when our action is going to happen. At least not If not early enough, I mean, you can, you can see some little precursors of an eruption right before it's happening. But officially, yeah, we don't have, we cannot absolutely understand when something's interaction will happen. After it has happened, we can try to forecast its effects on Earth. But obviously, again, we, we do not realize that, for example, for terrestrial weather we have had, like, we've started working on predictions, even before technology. But this thing is pretty, pretty novel. So we have a lot to work on, but also because you know, you have an eruption happening at the sun, and we don't have anything between the Sun and Earth to keep monitoring, right. So it would be something like trying to understand the weather in Los Angeles, by following one cloud that you saw in Central Europe.

Nick VinZant 26:03

Yeah, you can't figure it out. Right? It's like, and I would imagine that even if we could put something up there, it still wouldn't be able to get us a signal fashion that that thing's going to hit us.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 26:15

I mean, for the particles, so energetic particles, they're very quick. So when your operators, you know, I do work, or at least meet up and conversate with people who actually work in the operations. I mean, that's like, they have to be on call. Because if there is, like, you know, like a medical doctor, and I'm like, that's, that's not why I did science. Like they have to be on call. And if there is some first event, they have to immediately warn the astronauts and everything and, you know, and launch alerts, you because these things have to be done extremely quickly, because these particles are quick. Instead for CMEs. Unless it's something extremely fast. I think that the fastest CME that has ever come to us arrived in 14 hours, or 17, anywhere between 14 and about 15 hours, right, which is extremely quick. Normally, they take about three days.

Nick VinZant 27:17

So when I think of like, measurement, right, like I'm thinking of kind of along the lines of like the Richter scale, right, so if you took this event, the court is it Covington or Corrington, Carrington mix of both of those? Right? So where would that be on kind of like the measurement scale?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 27:34

Okay, so that's, that's a very nice question, because our scales do not. The do not like there is a top and above that instinct gonna be that. So I'm pretty sure it would. So for example, for geomagnetic storms, the official scale from Na is from Jiwon, minor storm, I mean, obviously, there is when there is no storm, it doesn't have a name, chi one minor, Storm two g five extreme storm, so I'm under percent confident the Carrington event would have been classified as a G five. But you know, we don't have anything about it. So the strong ones, they're still going to be called G five, because the scale just doesn't cry,

Nick VinZant 28:19

doesn't matter if it wipes the earth out, it's still a G five.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 28:22

And I mean, it's, it's a bit the same for flares, more or less, like solar flares. Okay, let's only talk about the decent ones, because the scale goes very low. And for things that we can barely see, but we have C flares, very weak and flares, kind of medium X flares, very strong. But these, they go on a logarithmic scale. So you know, an M flare is 10 times more powerful than the Z flare and the X flare 10 times more powerful. And then they have named the M numbers inside. So you can have X 1x 2x 3x Four, but for example, for m, you go from M one through n m nine and then you'll get to the X class, while the X class just doesn't end. So it has been estimated obviously, you know, from drawings done 150 years ago that the Carrington Event flare could have been something like x 46, which is kind of crazy. But But yeah, it would still be an X player because this cage just Yep. And

Nick VinZant 29:35

man, but there's no indication that like, Okay, this happens every so often this happens every, you know, like an earthquake, like, all right, well, every 300 years, we're gonna get another one.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 29:45

I mean, we don't I mean, the the estimate is that this kind of very strong events should happen once every more or less 150 years. So it's time now. But the point is that Okay, even if it happens, it could happen on the far side of the sun, and does not come to us at all. So there has been in 2012, a pretty pretty strong CME launch from the sun, but it missed us because it was just not launched in our direction. So this CMEs are very big, but, you know, if you consider, okay, if you consider the sun and all the other planets being more or less on the same plane, close to the solar equator. So now we only consider 360 degrees. I mean, there have been CMAs that have been so so large that they could almost cover 180 degrees, but you know, on average, they covered like 90 degrees, more or less of the, you know, of the full circle. So there are many of them that just don't come to us because they're just going in another direction. So yes, the sun will pretty for sure have another huge eruption. When we have no idea and in which direction, we have no idea. So it could it could happen tomorrow misses

Nick VinZant 31:06

does it like move? Okay, this may be a ridiculous question, or a brilliant question. Does it move the planet, right? Like, I'm just imagining this thing coming and bumping against our shield? Like, does it push us backwards? Or in any direction? Oh,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 31:19

no, no, but it does, like it does compress the magnetosphere. So like there are metal sphere is very, I don't know, I like to think about it as somebody that is breathing with the sun with the solar wind. So if we have like, stronger, faster solar wind, it will compress on the day side, obviously. So the side that is facing the sun. If we have very slow wind and very calm conditions, it will it will bounce back out. If we have a very strong storm, it's going to be compressed, almost coming towards very, very closer to like Earth's atmosphere and stuff like that. But the Earth itself will not change its path.

Nick VinZant 32:03

That's good. I'm imagining like somebody sitting on one of those exercise balls. Oh, yeah, that's kind of what I imagined. It's like, like, go you get a big one. It's going to compress it a lot. But it's still okay. It's still okay.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 32:15

Yeah, yes, exactly. Um,

Nick VinZant 32:18

I guess what's like, what's your biggest? What would be your biggest fear about it?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 32:23

I think that the most the thing that would, that worries me the most is probably astronauts health. Because you know, these people are out there and like, you know, exploring space and the cosmos for us. And I would like for them to stay imperfect as

Nick VinZant 32:41

it kind of sounds to me, like we should be very afraid and not afraid at all right. Like it would ruin society. But we would live through it at least, if we oh,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 32:51

I mean, yeah. I mean, you know, humanity, survived for millions of years without even knowing about solar activity. We didn't have technology back then. But we survived. Yes.

Nick VinZant 33:05

Is our governments or entities like doing something about this, like, hey, one of these is going to hit us and it's going to be a big problem, we should probably prepare for this.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 33:15

So some countries have started to declare space weather as you know, national catastrophe or national disaster class, as if you know, as an earthquake, or, you know, just as something that to be aware of. Now, obviously, I'm more informed about well, Finland, which is where I studied at university, and obviously the US because that's where I live and work now. So I will talk about the US. In the US, we are not the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. I am the

Nick VinZant 33:53

always something it's no a That's what I remember, right? Yes. Which order is always like, wait.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 34:01

Yeah, I bet. I think the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, I'm the worst with acronyms, but I think it's correct. So they are the ones who do the official space weather forecasts and give out warnings. Not NASA. Uh huh. Did you know that? So they have this branch of law called sweep sea Space Weather Prediction Center, where they do and I mean, you can even go to the internet and look at their page. They have some nice overview pages, where they show what the Sun is looking out today with the solar corona is looking like today. We if there are any warnings out what's the probability of a big eruption happening? So for example, as I said, we don't know yet how to predict when an eruption will happen, but for example, what they do know is that they look All the strong regions have stronger magnetic field on the Sun called active regions. And they look at how complex the magnetic field is or how strong it is. And then they say, Okay, if an eruption happens from there, what's the probability that we're going to have a strong radiation event? So things like this, it's all things that you can find on their web website.

Nick VinZant 35:26

But is there anything that we can fundamentally do or like, no technology operates on this, and the soul and space weather would disrupt this, and it's like, there's nothing you can do.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 35:37

Now, I mean, the most important thing is to protect our satellites, because you know, even if, I mean, obviously, I'm mostly interested in the scientific satellites, but, but a lot of stuff works in satellite TV, some TV, I think, the GPS, of course, military satellites, all of these things are like, there are so many satellites up there that, that we, that contribute to our daily life, and we don't even know sometimes. So anyway. So that is, what comes goes into preparedness to space where there is either shutting down satellites on time, so you know that something big is coming, shut down the satellite so that you protect the instruments. And four here again, for down on Earth, yeah, shutting down a transformer going on backup battery powers, you know, so all these things like to try to turn off the main systems until the conditions are back to being quiet.

Nick VinZant 36:41

That seems like a good plan.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 36:44

Yeah, I mean, that's how we want to be prepared. Now the hard part is to, is to be able to exactly predict when something is happening, how

Nick VinZant 36:51

much time do we generally have, though, right?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 36:55

For flares, you know, or radiation coming from flares, and the very initial launch of a CME, about 30 minutes on Earth? Oh, that's not a bit more, a bit more on Mars.

Nick VinZant 37:10

That's not a lot of time. Yeah. And then

Dr. Erika Palmerio 37:13

for the CME, which is the geomagnetic storm, but but for the CME or geomagnetic storm, as I said, about three days, but if it's a very extreme event, tend to 20 hours if it's a Carrington level event, which is not something that we should expect,

Nick VinZant 37:31

essentially, they kind of your research right now, like, what are you working on? What are you finding that kind of stuff?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 37:37

My in my daily life, what first of all, I like to work on a lot of projects at the same time. So as probably most scientists just to spice up your life a bit. But what I work on the most is to what we call space weather research, as opposed to operations, right? Because operations are the people who have to look at this on predict what's going on now, right? Instead, I usually work on older events, or like events that have already happened, and either use very complicated computer models to try to understand from fundamental physics point of view what was going on with that event. And that would be to try to improve our knowledge of solid eruptions and the physics of these things coming towards us and driving storms. Sometimes, instead, some other projects are about doing what we call hind casts. So trying to use models that are a bit quicker, less complicated, and simulating what would happen if I had to forecast this event in real time. So trying to use only data that would be available in real time and see how the forecast would have been. Yes.

Nick VinZant 39:11

Okay. I'm going to show you this thing. We had run requests to show this and to see what you thought about that. This is from the movie knowing. I don't Oh, I do. I've

Dr. Erika Palmerio 39:23

watched that movie. If I remember correctly, that was from a solar flare,

Nick VinZant 39:29

right? Yeah. This is from a solar flare. I

Dr. Erika Palmerio 39:31

was this. I watched this movie so long ago. And it was I mean, I watched it back in the day with colleagues. And yeah, it was, it was a night like after work. We stayed in the you know, meeting room because we had this huge screen where we did your teleconferencing but we used to watch this and yeah, we laughed a lot. It was great. scientific accuracy, extremely low. Oh, this is not what, what would happen from us on our flight.

Nick VinZant 40:04

Like what I guess what about it is wrong? So,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 40:10

kind of everything. I mean, so. So first of all, like, we, we wouldn't have things going on fire like you know as a tsunami of fire. I don't think that's quite that would happen. Yeah that is yeah basically that tsunami of fire I mean very beautiful visuals. But also one thing that it's very important to clarify is that a flare and the CME are two very different things, they are part of the same eruptive mechanism so that they both happen during what we call to be in our understanding of our solar eruption works but a flare like you know, I, you hear a lot like in movies especially, or a flare is coming while the flare is not coming to earth, only the CMYK can come to earth, the flare is just this bright flash that you see on the sun. particles accelerated by a flare can come to earth, but the particles are very invisible. They wouldn't do that.

Nick VinZant 41:32

I mean, there's not going to be a giant sweeping thing of fire

Dr. Erika Palmerio 41:37

of fire nom, I know. I know. I also I also was very shocked to learn that now.

Nick VinZant 41:43

It's something like this, like is this visually in any way kind of accurate about like, Oh, this is happening at the edge of the magnetosphere know nothing about it. Not a single thing, right? No,

Dr. Erika Palmerio 41:59

unfortunately, unfortunately. Like, I know, you know, when people watch the Interstellar, especially scientists that apparently work on black holes, they were like, Oh, that looks so accurate. And you know, beautiful visuals. I mean, the beautiful visuals that we have in, in solar physics are well, the sun itself, which in my opinion is pretty beautiful to look at. And auroras but, you know, when there is a disaster going on you the only thing you can say you can the visual present, as you had to represent, like an actual disaster from solar weather from space weather on the movies, like you would see, probably Mission Control looking at, you know, the signal from a satellite and that the signal just dying. Which is very sad, but not very cinematographic. I would say, very, very, not not very Hollywood worthy. And maybe, yeah, you know, and then the power grids going off, so like, you know, Blackout Yeah, like, general blackout that happens sometimes in movies.

Nick VinZant 43:05

Um, is there anything that you think that we missed or anything like that? Or like dishes, the coolest thing?

Dr. Erika Palmerio 43:11

Is, maybe are We are We monitored the sun Yeah, of like, measurements. Okay, so we look at this on from Earth, in a bunch of channels or wavelengths. Mostly, we look at solar activity in so called extreme ultraviolet, which is a bit stronger than water, Violet, which I'm pretty sure that everybody has heard of the UV. And where we can see a lot like, if you look at a picture of the Sun in UV light, it's completely different than what you would expect from from just you know, imagining the sun in the sky, there is so much activity going on and on these loops of plasma and very, these very bright regions of stronger magnetic field, the active region, you see so much going on, and you can see these eruptions being launched beautifully. So that's what we look at to see you know, when an eruption will happen or like the general structure of the solar magnetic field, then we can look at the corona, which I said was the outer layer of the solar atmosphere, this gigantic, with a very special telescope that is called the coronagraph, which is a telescope that creates a an artificial Eclipse. So basically, the status crops and they are mostly based in space. But they have a thing that is called an a culture that is literally covering the solar the bright solar disk, so that then we can reveal all the very, very, very faint Corona and then we can look, we can look at CMEs so when when, when they arrived, we see literally bright clouds moving away from the sun and becoming Have like by the time they are at about a few solar radii away from the Sun that already 10s of times bigger than the Sun itself, like they grow so fast, and they are, they are very spectacular to look at. And then we have some imagers scattered that look at the space between the Sun and Earth, but nothing that is fixed, looking always at the same at the same space. But then something that is very important is that we have our solar wind monitors at the so called point L one, which is the Sun earth Lagrange point at one, which is one of five very special points in space where the mutual gravity between the Sun and Earth makes them stable. So if you park a spacecraft there, it's gonna be there without using very with using very little fuel. And it's literally a parking spot in space. People who are interested in astronomy might have heard of as to which is the point where it actually the James Webb Space Telescope is now. So l one is between the Sun and Earth just 1% I had of Earth in when you consider the full Sun earth distance. And as to is behind earth. And the James Webb Space Telescope has to be there because it's using Earth as screen from the very bright sun. Because you know, to look at the universe, you don't want all the sun. So that perfect parking that that parking spot is perfect for for James Webb Space Telescope. But we are interested in the sun. So we are on the other side, getting old measuring at the spacecraft, all the solar wind that is coming. So when we have a CME coming, we measure it at L one, about 30 to 60 minutes before it's going to actually impact Earth. So that's another that's the warning time that we have at the moment 30 to 60 minutes where we are sure of what's coming because it has been measured. But obviously, what we want is to have the lead time going to many hours, possibly days, right. So there are some mission concepts of like parking a ring of spacecraft at Venus's orbit, Venus is at 70% The distance between Earth and the Sun. So which means that then the warning time would be would go from 30 to 60 minutes to about one day, you know, 18 to 24 hours, if we parkering of spacecraft there. But yeah, we have a lot of mission concepts coming out. So let's see, I'm very curious to see what will be approved for flying for improving our measurements around space.

Nick VinZant 47:45

That's kind of crazy, the idea that you can just like there's a parking spot in space.

Dr. Erika Palmerio 47:52

And actually from ESA, and NASA will contribute with one instrument they are sending I I think that for now the plan is for 2027 2029 but they will send a spacecraft at L five at the L five point that is 60 degrees. So if your earth and look at the sign, it's 60 degrees to your to your left. And from there, then you can see the solar eruptions coming straight at Earth much, much more easier than looking you know from Earth at something that is coming towards you, which is you know, there are all these projection effects when you look at to the images. So yeah, very exciting that we will have a mission that will be parked there at this L five parking spot and we'll look at solar options for

Nick VinZant 48:44

us and how much how much extra time would that give us

Dr. Erika Palmerio 48:48

it's not much about the time because we're not measuring. Because that spacecraft will still be at the same distance as Earth from the Sun. So it's but but the point is that it's going to give us so much more confidence in understanding where eruptions are like what their propagation direction is, how big they are, are faster going so because when you have to well separated points to look at something into the images, then you can triangulate the thing you're trying to study and you get much less errors. So it's gonna I mean, it's it is going to give a lot of improvements in terms of space weather predictions, but not in terms of measuring the stuff that is coming straight at us locally, but in terms of making predictions from afar.

Nick VinZant 49:44

I want to thank Dr. Pol. Mario's so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the app pisode description if you want to see what some of this solar activity and what some of these solar flares really look like, the YouTube version of this interview will be live on September 28, at 4:30pm Pacific. Real quick, I want to take a second and thank one of the sponsors of our show in Cagni in cognitive mission is to help you take back control of your data privacy. We all know that data brokers and companies collect our personal information and then sell it and who knows where it goes in Cognis mission is to take your data back just as easily. Every year, identity theft seems to become a bigger and bigger problem, there has been a 68% increase in the number of data breaches in 2021 alone, and the likelihood of your data being stolen just keeps getting higher and higher. What incognito does is reach out to data brokers on your behalf, requests that your personal data be removed, and then deals with any objections from their side going forward. What data brokers do is if you make a request, they'll remove it. But then they go back. Incognito keeps that from happening through three easy steps, create an account, grant them the right to work, and then they will contact data brokers on your behalf and request that your data be removed permanently. And right now in Cagni is available risk free for 30 days. Anybody can try it. And if you don't like it, you'll get a full refund. We even have a special discount available. All you have to do is go to incognito.com/profound and enter the code profoundly. And you can try in Cagni risk free for 30 days. We've also put a link in the description along with that promo code if you want to check it out. Okay, now let's bring in John shawl and get to the pointless part of this show. What natural disaster Do you are you most afraid of? Like, oh, I'm really worried about this thing happening to me.

John Shull 52:18

I mean, I'm pretty terrified of like an asteroid hitting the Earth.

Nick VinZant 52:23

Oh, yeah. But that seems to be really random.

John Shull 52:27

Yeah, and it's, I don't know. I mean, it is possible, but is it in the realm of like, realistic possibility? Probably not. So, in saying that, I'll probably say,

Nick VinZant 52:39

Wait, why are you so afraid of an asteroid?

John Shull 52:43

I mean, because I feel like there's nothing that you can do. There's literally I mean, I hate to say like use use a movie for a for example. But it's it's there's nothing like Armageddon, right?

Nick VinZant 52:58

Isn't Armageddon the movie where they like send up oil drillers or something? I never understood that premise of the movie. Like, hey, you know what, you can figure out how to get a spacecraft into space. But there's no way you can be all figured out this oil drill man. Like, you may be a genius, but you're not smart enough for it. Like that movie made no sense. Right? Like, I understand that you can learn how to do the build a rocket, but you don't know how to operate a drill.

John Shull 53:27

Yeah, it's

Nick VinZant 53:30

when did you start to become one did you when did you become afraid of asteroids?

John Shull 53:34

Not really. You just asked me. You asked me like what I would like if there was one natural disaster that I would be most fearful of. And I think that would be it. Plus, I did just watch a video and I don't know how old this is. I think it's relatively new of a an asteroid hitting the moon. And it I mean, it was massive.

Nick VinZant 53:56

Yeah. Yeah. That I mean, that's one of those that I don't worry about because it's like you're dead. Don't worry about it, man. Like, what's what's gonna happen to us? Well, you ain't gonna have to worry about it.

John Shull 54:08

I mean, if like I said, if I had to pick a, like a realistic one. Not that that can't happen, but something that could happen every year. Probably like, some kind of flooding.

Nick VinZant 54:20

Oh, yeah. I don't worry about flooding too much. I live in Seattle, where earthquakes are like a real thing. Right? Like the biggest natural disaster of all time. is supposed to happen here. Like at any time in the next 100 years. Like it's a real thing. Like oh, no, you really, you really got to be worried about that.

John Shull 54:39

I mean, it makes it makes no it does not surprise anybody that that of course is where you live. And that is where the world is supposed to start ending.

Nick VinZant 54:47

What is that? Oh, I see what she did. I see how you tied it at first. I was like, what is that? Oh, do you ever wonder if like all of this is real? Like there's no way that this like no there There's not space out there. There's not an asteroid like this is all just a computer simulation. I don't want to get into that whole, like conspiracy theory. But do you ever wonder if like, This can't be real like this? No.

John Shull 55:16

There are times in the morning to where, you know, I'm trying to get somewhere fast and someone pulls out. And then they're going 20 miles an hour. And then I hit every, you know, red light that I go to get on the highway. And there's an accident that just happened five minutes before I got on the highway. You know, just things like that, where I'm like, Is this a joke? Is this the Truman Show?

Nick VinZant 55:38

Yeah, I always wonder like sometimes, like, no, the sun's 93 million miles like, No, it's not.

John Shull 55:48

Just like, Does my wife actually love me?

Nick VinZant 55:53

Yeah, it's weird, right? It's weird because you live your whole life in your head. It's impossible sometimes for me to comprehend the idea though, like, Wait, there's somebody else living on the same planet having all their own thoughts at the same time. Like that's just wild to me.

John Shull 56:10

I mean, I do believe in I don't know that. The technical name of the theory but that there's a clone planet Earth, and we're just, you know, we're just reverberations of of the other person. That's somewhere that was somewhere else. And that's where deja vu comes into effect.

Nick VinZant 56:27

Oh, wait, you believe that?

John Shull 56:31

That's foolish as I probably sound, I think I think there is some validity to it. I don't know if I believe at all. But yeah,

Nick VinZant 56:39

man. That's pretty that's high up there. Right? Like you went from zero to 100. You went from? You skipped zero to 60. And went straight. Right? Like you don't Are you but you don't believe in a lot of other conspiracy theories?

John Shull 56:55

No, no, I mean, I I'm pretty sure I'm one of the beginning episodes of this podcast. I've fought against the science of dinosaurs.

Nick VinZant 57:05

Yeah, you did it dark chapter in your life?

John Shull 57:09

Don't. Some people still haven't let me live that down? Well, you shouldn't

Nick VinZant 57:13

write I don't think that people should be allowed to live things down. I think that you need to be reminded of the person that you once were so that you don't become that person again. And that goes for everybody. Right? Like you need to you need to be checked every couple every once in a while.

John Shull 57:28

I mean, you stay say dumb things you should have to own up to them and right. Anyways, yes, I. I mean, explain deja vu to me. If you if somebody can give me a valid explanation as to why that feeling occurs, then then maybe I won't believe that there's some kind of mirror planet somewhere.

Nick VinZant 57:51

I mean, I'm not going to look it up, because it's not that kind of show. But I think it's like a mess. I think it's like a misfiring of your brain somehow. And that you think this thing has happened before, when in reality, it hasn't. Like, just just like your brain, like, took a left when it should have taken it right. Like it happens.

John Shull 58:11

I do think that everything comes down to your brain, right? Everything. Your brain is a powerful friggin thing. And you're probably right, it's probably just a misfiring or something, something to that effect.

Nick VinZant 58:24

If you could be a brain in a jar, like would you do it? Not for all time. Like this is like, Hey, you can be five years just hanging out as a brain in a jar.

John Shull 58:35

I mean, that doesn't sound fun to me. I know that sounds terrible.

Nick VinZant 58:39

Would you okay, what length of time? Would you be willing to be a brain in a jar?

John Shull 58:44

Like, what am I doing? Just sit hanging out, you're just observing

Nick VinZant 58:46

the world. You can watch it you get your like observing the world in front of like a bunch of TV monitors. You can see whatever's going on. You have access to the internet to be seen in a jar.

John Shull 58:58

I have no desire to do that. I don't care that much about everybody else

Nick VinZant 59:04

to a day. Would you do it for a day?

John Shull 59:08

I mean, I'll do it for a month. How about that? I'll do it for a month, man.

Nick VinZant 59:11

I honestly, I don't think I would do it for an hour.

John Shull 59:16

I mean, I think you would become overwhelmed like that. What's that movie with Jim Carrey? Where he's got or it gets to play God.

Nick VinZant 59:24

Bruce Almighty. Steve Almighty, there's a couple of them.

John Shull 59:29

Yeah, but Bruce Almighty where he you know, has to whatever. He gets God's powers and he just gets everyone's problems and everyone's complaints and it's like, yeah, man, if there was overwhelming

Nick VinZant 59:44

Yeah, if there was a God, he would they would be pretty sick of our shit. Right? Could you imagine? Like, let's not get into religion or condemn it or condone it or anything like that. But could you just imagine if you were like, all powerful God and you just listened to people shit Whole day, like fuck no wonder they left.

John Shull 1:00:05

Yeah, no, I

Nick VinZant 1:00:07

have 7 billion people's thoughts all the time.

John Shull 1:00:11

No,

Nick VinZant 1:00:12

I may have no. Right. You'd be so rude to people.

John Shull 1:00:18

We should probably stop having this conversation. We don't want to become that kind of show.

Nick VinZant 1:00:22

Right? That's just to like, man, that dudes out on the road, right. Okay. Anyway, all right, well, let's

John Shull 1:00:31

all right. Yes, let's do some shout outs, shall we? Let's see, we'll start with Jamie Ford.

Nick VinZant 1:00:36

That's the thing that if a God does exist, there is one person in the universe that is his least favorite person. Think about that, right? In the entire universe history. If there is a God, there's somebody who is their least favorite person of all time.

John Shull 1:00:55

Yeah, it's probably pretty easy to determine who,

Nick VinZant 1:00:59

right like how much would you have to suck?

John Shull 1:01:02

I mean, you can probably narrow it down to a handful of people as to who God hates, you know, dislikes the most, but

Nick VinZant 1:01:10

I'm not I don't think it would be like a big historical figure. Right? I don't think it would be like that. Like, what if it was just somebody from like, Steve, from Biloxi, Mississippi was just the worst person? Like that guy. Just wind all the time.

John Shull 1:01:27

No, I still think it'd be some terrible historical person.

Nick VinZant 1:01:32

I don't think so. I think it would be just some random person.

John Shull 1:01:36

He, you know, God would be like I, I helped create this blob of blonde. Look what they did.

Nick VinZant 1:01:45

Yeah. I just think it would be like somebody that did nothing, though. Right? Like I gave this guy, a 48 inch vertical. He could run a four four. He was handsome, good looking smart. Funny, and he just sat around and complained all the time. I think I'd be somebody like that.

John Shull 1:02:07

I don't think I I don't think God is just up there going. Paul from Connecticut, you son of a bitch. Right?

Nick VinZant 1:02:17

Like but there has to be somebody. Stat Stacy, if you could interview the all powerful being and be like, who did you like the least? I think probably amazing.

John Shull 1:02:32

The answer probably would surprise everyone. I I agree with you that it's probably not you know, the obvious choices. Or choice, I think but that'd be quite interesting. You should throw out an invite. See if if God wants

Nick VinZant 1:02:45

to come on, right. Like I don't think it would be somebody like Stalin. It would be like Paula, from accounting. I hated that lady. I think that'd be amazing.

John Shull 1:02:59

Karen from Arizona.

Nick VinZant 1:03:00

Karen from Arizona was just the worst. That haircut she had was just atrocious.

John Shull 1:03:10

All right, well, let's try this again, showing Jamie Ford. Tony, Ill enough. Nicholas, standard zu ski. And I don't think I'm saying that wrong. No,

Nick VinZant 1:03:25

as a Polish person. I can tell you that you're not.

John Shull 1:03:28

Thank you. Alice Egan. Eriko Nieves Oliver Blaze. And Emilia Francis Ladner Colt Radloff. I don't know how I feel about the name called but

Nick VinZant 1:03:45

it's okay in very small doses, but it has to be very small doses. I can stand in one cold out of every 100,000 people. That's a very specific myth. Yeah, I can only know one cold. I don't want to ever know more than one.

John Shull 1:04:02

All right. Maxwell Piper, and we're going to end here on doc even house.

Nick VinZant 1:04:09

talkies in house. How do you spell dog TOC? TOC, huh?

John Shull 1:04:16

All right. Well, got some

Nick VinZant 1:04:20

bangers. Oh, the suspense. I didn't know where you were gonna go.

John Shull 1:04:25

I know. Right? Bring crafty bastard. You, you? Well, that's what happens when you've been doing this for six years. I gotta keep you on your toes somehow. All right. Got a few of them actually.

Nick VinZant 1:04:38

Oh, man. Maybe next time, right? Like don't don't shoot your whole wad at one time. Right?

John Shull 1:04:44

Speaking of shooting your watch. Would you rather have sex as much as you want for five years and the prime of your life or be guaranteed to have sex once every two weeks? For the rest Have your life? Well, I'd rather

Nick VinZant 1:05:01

spaced it out. Right? Because even if that's five years in the prime of your life, it's only like 22 to 27. So you're going for an incredibly long time without it. Now, I don't think I'm going to be interested in having sex past the age of 50 more than maybe once or twice a year, quite frankly. But I don't want to go from like 30 to 40 and not have it.

John Shull 1:05:25

I don't know. Twice a

Nick VinZant 1:05:27

week is a lot. Wait, what was the how many times was it?

John Shull 1:05:31

Once every two weeks? Oh,

Nick VinZant 1:05:34

that's yeah, that's easy. All right. Right, that's like, Yeah, dude, would you like a winning lottery ticket? Or would you like to lose forever? Like, yeah, I'll take the ticket. Come on. No, you didn't think that through?

John Shull 1:05:49

No, I think I did. I as much as you want unlimited sex for five years. During the prime, the prime doesn't have to be 27 or 22. Through 27. It can be 30 through 30. You know, whatever. Five, it can be four to 35 through 40.

Nick VinZant 1:06:07

Yeah, I don't don't really I mean, if I was to say how many times I want to have sex right now in my life a week The answer would be once, twice, honestly, like, I really don't really want to do it that much more than that. Right. So even in the prime of your life, like I don't understand. You're just doing it out of boredom. At some point.

John Shull 1:06:31

I get I think you're speaking for yourself. But that's that.

Nick VinZant 1:06:34

How many times a week would you honestly want to have sex right now at your age?

John Shull 1:06:40

I mean, we're still in the prime of her life.

Nick VinZant 1:06:42

And if I What if I did? Well, on the downside of the prime, that's no.

John Shull 1:06:47

Well, yes, definitely. We're sliding down the slippery back of like, those

Nick VinZant 1:06:52

tires are starting to be worn out.

John Shull 1:06:54

I mean, if I didn't have children, young children, it would be four to five times a week.

Nick VinZant 1:07:00

Oh, yeah, that's still right. Like, that's still not like you're gonna say four to five times a day. So that's not like right later, you could have unlimited buffet. Well, at some point, you're, you don't want to want to eat anymore.

John Shull 1:07:13

See, well, I mean, I need the buffet. All

Nick VinZant 1:07:15

I know, but you wouldn't go back breakfast. Like, I know one person who actually went to a lunch buffet and stayed through dinner. And they charged him again. And he paid it and they stayed there. Oh my god there for eight hours. Which is incredible. He's like, You did what? It's like, yeah, I just I just I was still there

Unknown Speaker 1:07:36

would

Nick VinZant 1:07:39

be being at a restaurant being like, sir, you. You have to pay again. And they're just like, Okay.

John Shull 1:07:47

I mean, I just feel like did they get there one and stayed to like six? Because if they did, that's pretty incredible. That's impressive.

Nick VinZant 1:07:56

I don't remember the exact hours. It wasn't like they got there at three and then it switched over to dinner buffet at four. They were there for I want to say they were there for two solid hours of the lunch buffet and then two solid hours of the dinner buffet. Which is right like,

John Shull 1:08:16

that's incredible. Yeah, it was bad. I you know, it said I haven't been back. I haven't been in a buffet since the pandemic and it's not because I haven't like wanted to go I just haven't gone like the pandemic. You know, it didn't stop me from going. I just haven't gone to a buffet I need to change that.

Nick VinZant 1:08:36

I don't I'm not really very interested in buffets to be honest with you. My interest for buffets has waned, or waxed, gone down whichever one of those is not as interested in buffets that I was the younger man.

John Shull 1:08:52

Would you rather would you rather be with the hardest looking person you've ever seen, but be the poorest you've ever been? Or be with the ugliest person you've ever seen? But be the wealthiest you've ever been? Well, both of those problems

Nick VinZant 1:09:07

are going to correct itself. If you make it be with the hottest person you've ever seen, but if you're the poorest, chances are they're not going to be around very long. And you could be with the ugliest but if you're the richest, well you can fix that solution. So the ugliest when riches would be okay. Right? Like yeah, you can. You can buy a lot of things with a lot of money. Take that in whichever direction you want to go.

John Shull 1:09:34

See if you're just listening to this podcast for the first time. This is what Nick does to these questions. He doesn't just answer he has to he has to think about it. And you but you do it so fast. It's like a gift I mean you are able to break down something so quick in in just explain it. It's it's a good quality to have.

Nick VinZant 1:09:52

It's probably actually my only talent. If you think about it if I was to like pinpoint one talent would be to be able to size up a city duration and make a decision very quickly. It doesn't get me anywhere, besides like having a quick answer for your questions, but that would probably be that and picking out a watermelon. I'm pretty good at that. Those would be my two greatest talents in life, neither of which has produced any sort of success.

John Shull 1:10:21

The last one here. It's interesting that we were talking about God earlier, because I literally wrote down these questions this afternoon. But would you rather have a beer with Jesus? Or a beer with with your favorite celebrity?

Nick VinZant 1:10:34

Oh, well, Jesus. Why wouldn't you? Why would you? You're gonna pick like, Taylor Swift over Jesus.

John Shull 1:10:42

I see. That's, I know. It sounds funny. Right. But I feel I think it'd be split down the middle. I really do. I think so. I do, I think I think it would be I mean, I'd have to think about it,

Nick VinZant 1:10:54

you have a chance to speak with an all powerful being and you're gonna go ahead and choose like Dwayne The Rock Johnson instead, like, hey, Jesus, sorry about the rocks here.

John Shull 1:11:07

I mean, for me, I'd have to think about it

Nick VinZant 1:11:10

that would immediately vault you into probably the most disliked person that have won the greater power has ever, ever created, they would be like, that was my biggest mistake of all time, who John Shaw was, I gave him a chance to talk to me, or Hulk Hogan, and he chose Hulk Hogan.

John Shull 1:11:34

I'm just I'm just saying it would be difficult. And I don't think I'd be the only one. That would have to double think it.

Nick VinZant 1:11:41

I think you probably are, dude. I know. Thank

John Shull 1:11:44

you. So man. I mean,

Nick VinZant 1:11:47

maybe not the only one. But I would say 99% of people are going to be like, yeah, man, I talked even if they're not religious. Like you wouldn't want to just be like, Hey, man, what happened back there? Right, like going on around here? Or, or you

John Shull 1:12:03

could have a chat with like, George Washington or somebody like that, or you know, or have a beer with them.

Nick VinZant 1:12:08

You don't think that Jesus is going to know about them? He could answer any question that you wanted. You could even talk to Jesus about your most biggest fan celebrity and he would know better than they would. You're not thinking this through.

John Shull 1:12:26

But they're not there in the flesh. You know what I mean?

Nick VinZant 1:12:30

The all powerful being of the universe is there in the flesh, and you're gonna be like, Nah, man, stone cold. Want to find out about the stunner?

John Shull 1:12:40

Let's mean stone cold open and a couple of beers. Cod. Man gonna have gonna have a hot toddy with Jesus over here. No,

Nick VinZant 1:12:48

what I would honestly do what I would honestly do. Your decision would doom the human race. If I was an all powerful being and I gave you the choice to talk to me or to stone cold, Steve Austin, and you chose Stone Cold Steve Austin, I would immediately blow up the planet and be like, this whole thing is gone. Right? This whole thing was a mistake.

John Shull 1:13:16

Made if that's what you're basing it on. That's that. That seems like a drastic emotional

Nick VinZant 1:13:20

thing. That would be you know what, and I think that whoever else is up there like it his buddies he's talking to? They'd be like, Yeah, that's what you had to do. They would be like he did what?

John Shull 1:13:32

No, I don't think it would even matter. I think,

Nick VinZant 1:13:35

What celebrity would you choose to talk to you over Jesus?

John Shull 1:13:40

I mean, there's I like, it's all I said was, I'd really have to think about it, who I would choose. That's all it said.

Nick VinZant 1:13:49

I just can't believe I'm worried about our society. I'm worried. I feel like calling Child Protective Services for your children.

John Shull 1:14:00

I mean, I'm just I'm Yeah, I wasn't gonna I don't think maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like it would be 5050 I feel like 50% of people would say that's a stupid question. Of course, you'd have the invite and you take a day Jesus up for a drink, but then the other 50% of people are would be

Nick VinZant 1:14:17

Hmm, okay. Do you have any other bangers

John Shull 1:14:20

Do you know, that's it, man.

Nick VinZant 1:14:21

He really didn't like Jesus is going to be there and he's just gonna appear at somebody, like think about this. Jesus is just going to appear in front of you. And he's like, poof into existence and be like, Hey, John, I'm Jesus. I created the universe. Do you want to talk to me have a drink? Or would you like to talk to Pauly Shore? And you'd be like, Oh, well. I am a fan of Pauly Shore. Like, could you imagine that? Dude, you knew and you wouldn't do it.

John Shull 1:14:53

I mean, that's part of the thing. Maybe God and or Jesus is this pompous person who you wouldn't even want Have a beer with anyways, you still

Nick VinZant 1:15:01

want to find out about the universe, right? You're not going to ask any questions. What would the first question you asked to Jesus be?

John Shull 1:15:09

Am I? Oh, no. I mean, I would probably have something stupid like, so what am I going to die? And how am I going to die? No, I don't think that's stupid. If you'd be like, well, it's gonna be when you walk out of this bar, and you're gonna get hit by a car.

Nick VinZant 1:15:24

I think the thing that I would ask would be like, is there any chance I could go again? Any chance? I'm going again? Maybe like, Nah, dude. You got about five left, actually. So y'all mean crap. We're not religious either. I'm not a religious person. But I do think the concept of whatever let's just move on. This is a neck for people who may be listening for the first time. We're not a religious or a political show. We just got sidetracked on this. It is kind of interesting. Like, what would you do? Like well?

John Shull 1:15:54

Well, I mean, Jesus is there or the rock walks and I'm probably gonna go out some tequila with the rock for an hour.

Nick VinZant 1:16:00

What do you think Jesus is gonna drink? What do you think he's gonna have for a drink? Like if you sat down for a beer with Jesus, what do you think he's drinking?

John Shull 1:16:11

Probably something like super like probably something super strong. Like maybe just whiskey just out of the bottle. I

Nick VinZant 1:16:19

think he goes beer. Do you think he goes hard liquor?

John Shull 1:16:23

He goes hard liquor. I think I can

Nick VinZant 1:16:25

see Jesus having like a whiskey or a tequila

John Shull 1:16:32

Yeah, but knowing Knowing my luck, you know, he he be like, What do you want? Cosmopolitan, please. Oh,

Nick VinZant 1:16:39

God, what if Jesus drinks like a sex on the beach? He's Jesus. Well, everybody's gonna start drinking sex on the beaches. I'll tell you that.

John Shull 1:16:48

You can drink whatever he wants to. Unless the rocks there and then I'll be talking to somebody else. God, I

Nick VinZant 1:16:55

mean, I hope that's just didn't do much, right. You're worried about an asteroid? Well, they're sending it now.

John Shull 1:17:04

Who was they?

Nick VinZant 1:17:06

Whoever it is, okay. Oh, is

John Shull 1:17:08

that your whole thing? That's it, man. Okay, so

Nick VinZant 1:17:10

our top five is top five best things about fall? Sure. Number five.

John Shull 1:17:17

Well, my first question to you is has the weather officially started to cool down in Seattle.

Nick VinZant 1:17:23

I mean, it's Seattle. So not that much not like in other parts of the country, Seattle, if you would like this whole rant has a very temperate climate, it rarely gets below 30 And rarely gets above 75. It's very, very reliable climate because it's right next to the ocean so it doesn't swing up and down, like other places that I've lived.

John Shull 1:17:46

Sounds terrible. But all right. The seasons in Michigan have changed quite a bit and it's still 60 to 70 degrees come Halloween. And that is that is kind of absurd. Because I remember when I was a child, that would be 40 degrees and snowing some Halloween. Halloween. Yeah, it's my dad walk around with his Bud Light in his, you know, jacket, telling me to go back to a house again to get the same candy because I gave out the nice candy bars instead of the shitty ones.

Nick VinZant 1:18:16

Yeah, you wouldn't do that. That's good parenting. Go back.

John Shull 1:18:22

I remember one time I went to the same house and the person goes, Did not just see. That's a no must have been the other Pillsbury Doughboy. Ah,

Nick VinZant 1:18:31

you gotta give it like 30 minutes.

John Shull 1:18:33

Well, you know, anyway, it's my number five. I'm speaking of what we just kind of alluded to, I'm going with the cooler weather.

Nick VinZant 1:18:43

That's your number five. I have a hard time not putting that a lot higher is the change in the weather?

John Shull 1:18:50

Well, I actually don't mind the hot weather. And I think people always say, Man, I'm ready for the cooler weather. And then when you get up and you have to start your day and it's 40 You know, 3040 degrees. Then you're like, Man, I wish it was still warmer outside.

Nick VinZant 1:19:04

Mornings mornings when it's dark and cold. That's that's tough. That's to me. The hardest part about falling winter. The change in the morning to change in the sunlight. My number five is hoodies. I love wearing hoodies, man. And you can start rockin hoodies in fall it's hoodies every day.

John Shull 1:19:24

Yeah, I don't actually disagree with you on that. Fall fall clothing is it's better than summer clothing and way better than winter clothing.

Nick VinZant 1:19:34

Yeah, fall I think is the most comfortable clothing season. For sure. Yeah. Because even though summer you could make an argument that that's the most comfortable you're wearing the least. I'd like to be you know, I like to be little wrapped up. I don't mind a little blanket. I like little lounge pants. Right? You can't do that in summer. You can't put a blanket on it. Someone can tuck you wet shirt on in summer.

John Shull 1:19:58

Just pull up Put the nifty bed.

Nick VinZant 1:20:01

I don't mind being tucked in. You wouldn't want to be tucked in right now.

John Shull 1:20:06

No, I don't actually like, I don't like, like the feeling of being tucked in.

Nick VinZant 1:20:11

It bothers you. The last time somebody tucked you into bed, it's probably been like 30 years if you think about

John Shull 1:20:19

Yeah, I don't remember the last time I've ever been tucked in. I don't

Nick VinZant 1:20:23

remember the last time but I'm sure it was when our moms were little kids. They tucked us into bed.

John Shull 1:20:29

Knowing that now, nobody my wife doesn't even know I'm in the bed half of the time.

Nick VinZant 1:20:34

No, she knows.

John Shull 1:20:35

Oh, all right, my number. My number four is just the colors of the season change. And it kind of goes a lot I was trying to figure out a way to fit in like candles in there and like smells. But I went with color change instead because it really is. The leaves in the grass. It's it goes from these dark blues and greens to just death and destruction. Jesus just goes poof you don't have a beer with me and everything turns gray.

Nick VinZant 1:21:06

That's how it works man also that is like the weenie just answer that I thought that you were gonna give. Like I really love the fall colors. I don't want to hear about fall colors. I don't want to hear about pumpkin spice lattes, fall colors or anything like that. That's the worst part about fall to me is you gotta hear everybody talk about the same stuff.

John Shull 1:21:27

I don't want to hear it. Well, you're gonna hate my number one then.

Nick VinZant 1:21:31

My number four is the holidays. I like the holidays. I'm a firm believer that the year ends the week before Thanksgiving the years essentially over right before Thanksgiving the week of when the when the week of Thanksgiving the year is over. You have no more responsibilities at work. Nobody's paying attention. Everybody's checked out for the rest of the year.

John Shull 1:21:52

I don't know what business you're in.

Nick VinZant 1:21:55

Well, most of the world

John Shull 1:21:58

Yeah, I know. Fuck. My number. I'm just gonna move on from that. My number three is like late night fires.

Nick VinZant 1:22:08

Hmm

John Shull 1:22:11

just sitting around firepit with when it's it's not too cold to have a fire but it's just cold enough to where you know you get in your fall gear and you sit around a fire Yeah, some cold beers. It's it's probably one of my favorite things to do all year.

Nick VinZant 1:22:26

My I agree with that. I do like sitting by fire. I enjoy sitting by a fire. Yeah, there's something very nice about that. My number three is football. Not because I like football that much but because there's just it's an event there's always something kind of going on with football like oh, you can do that at the very least. That kind of brings like an excitement to the year I think that football does that.

John Shull 1:22:53

I mean not only does the fall bring football but you have hockey, basketball. Baseball Playoff soccer year round nobody cares

Nick VinZant 1:23:01

about that the Polo championship badminton regionals. Okay Don't Don't hate all bad, but I loved on it and honestly, that's one of those sports I wish we played more like I love badminton racquet ball, that stuff's fun as hell hitting the ball with a racket Washington bang off of things. It's amazing.

John Shull 1:23:22

All right, my number two is kind of piggybacking on what you said is just the holidays. I don't agree with you that the years ends at Thanksgiving but you know, you kind of you kind of start the season right with Halloween and Thanksgiving and then the whole month of December is just you know, Christmas and then you go into New Year's it's it gives you something to look forward to. Especially when the weather at that point, usually pretty shitty.

Nick VinZant 1:23:48

I can make an argument that if you're not in kind of like retail, or anything like that, that your year kind of ends with things with Halloween. The years kind of over with Halloween, like I'm not really doing anything after that, like November and December, nobody's getting big projects done.

John Shull 1:24:10

Well, that's good for them. I guess.

Nick VinZant 1:24:13

My number two is laziness. Laziness is one of my favorite things about fall because you don't have to do anything. You can just be inside. You don't have to do anything. And the weather's not so bad like it is in winter, where you can't really do anything or it's very difficult to do something. Fall to me is the laziest season.

John Shull 1:24:35

Yeah, because you're not necessarily getting the snows that you have to go and take care of. But it's usually cold enough to where you don't want to do anything then like you said, there's football on something to do.

Nick VinZant 1:24:49

It's the laziest season in my opinion. That's I like that right? Like I don't really have to do stuff like summer you always feel like I be out there doing something.

John Shull 1:24:57

We gotta we'd go into the shit out of my shell. All right, gotta go

Nick VinZant 1:25:01

mow the lawn. You got to go to the beach. You got to go to the whatever but in fall, you're like to do that.

John Shull 1:25:10

Alright, my number one is the fall food.

Nick VinZant 1:25:14

Oh, I don't care about fall food at all. Oh man, what's up? What are you eating in fall this so special?

John Shull 1:25:21

Oh, I mean you name it. I mean we could talk about Thanksgiving alone. crock pot meals, hearty meals. You know just things kind of what you were like talking about laziness meals where you just want to go to sleep right after eating them.

Nick VinZant 1:25:40

Hmm. The only fall food that I like is chili. That's the only one that I'd be like, no, no, no, you got to wait for fall for some chili. Or assuming good like good thick soup. But other than that, I don't care about it.

John Shull 1:25:54

Chili soup like you know, it's usually obviously to kill to cold the grill outside so you might do some cooking on the stove. Just

Nick VinZant 1:26:05

my number one is what I think the only number one should be which is just not sweating.

John Shull 1:26:12

I've said that I don't mind sweating. I've told you that. I don't I don't I kind of like to sweat. It makes me feel alive.

Nick VinZant 1:26:17

Yeah, but just like doing nothing sweating. Like just being there being hot sweating. I don't enjoy that at all. Well,

John Shull 1:26:24

I mean, people can go to YouTube and I sweat just recording this.

Nick VinZant 1:26:29

Yeah, I can see it. Do you? Do you have anything your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:26:37

Um, I have like a Fall TV specials like holiday specials. I'm kind of a sap like I look forward to you know, like the the holiday movie marathons or? Or like the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving show, you know, are some of the artists musicians that do one off concerts in the fall? I like those.

Nick VinZant 1:26:58

I don't I've never paid any attention to those. I could care less about any of those things. I mean, not at all. Like it's surprising how little I care about it that like, Oh, that's a thing. Like, to me, I was actually shocked that that's something that other people actually enjoy. Oh, well, except for maybe the Thanksgiving Day. Maybe the Thanksgiving Day Parade or the Christmas parade? I can't remember it. That's like the only thing that I'd be like, Well, I'm gonna watch that.

John Shull 1:27:25

And then I also have on here, I didn't really know how to put this down in a concise manner. But I have I have like, like, themed food, like pumpkin spice at Starbucks. Or like Halloween cookies. You know, like, different different, like fall themed food that you can that seasonal seasonal food. There you go. fall seasonal food.

Nick VinZant 1:27:50

I think I hate stuff like that. Because I hate anything that I don't care about that I now have to either hear about a lot or pretend like I care about.

John Shull 1:27:59

I mean, the pumpkin spice phenomenon. God, it was a little much a few years ago, but it's it's it's not bad. I mean, it's not like it's a terrible product.

Nick VinZant 1:28:08

I just don't want to hear about it. I don't want to hear people say those words. Like oh, PSL. strike them down, Jesus. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless, I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a rating, quick review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. And if you get a chance, and you really liked the show, we have been nominated for best interview podcast in the 2023 signal awards. So we've put a link to the voting site in the description. Really appreciate your support. Thanks. I'm so awkward at things like that. Because John and I just we're not good at any kind of self promotion. We're just terrible at it. And I feel like when we ever we try to do it, it just comes off weird like that. But anyway, let us know what you think are the best things about fall. And if fall I would I would honestly make a case that fall could be fall could be the best or at least the second best season. Let us know what you think.

Helicopter Stunt Pilot Fred North

From the Fast and the Furious and Bad Boys to Inception and Captain America, Helicopter Stunt Pilot Fred North has spent his life flying sideways. We talk becoming an aerial stunt pilot, how movie stunts are really made and his most extreme stunt yet. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Child Stars.

Fred North: 01:20

Pointless: 37:53

Top 5 Child Stars: 01:02:02

Contact the Show

Fred North's Website and Book - Flying Sideways

Fred North Instagram

Fred North TikTok

Interview with Helicopter Stunt Pilot Fred North

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, movie stunts and childhood stars,

Fred North 0:21

you need to have a very, very good awareness of the surrounding. Because when we fly super low on these power lines, there is war there is explosion. So on the last extraction to movie that was released on Netflix, I have to land on a moving train, and I really want to do something. Wow, you know, for the audience, I really want the people to say what the heck,

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest has performed some of the most intense stunts you've ever seen from Bad Boys fast in the Furious The list just goes on and on. This is stunt helicopter pilot, Fred North was the goal always to be a stunt pilot, or were you going to be a regular pilot. And this is just kind of what happened.

Fred North 1:27

I didn't know I wanted to be a stunt pilot, because I didn't know the event the position was existing. So I just started to be a helicopter pilot, I knew I wanted to do what we call utility flying which mean firefighting, rescue, you know, more the flying aspect of it and not like go from A to B, you know, that I knew. But I didn't know where you know, life was gonna take me.

Nick VinZant 1:50

So did this really even exist when you started out? Or do you kind of pave a path for this,

Fred North 1:56

it was existing in America, but at the time I was in France, in France did not exist. So I had to kind of create the job for Europe. In the US, there was maybe 10 guys doing it worldwide, you know, that's it. So it's such a niche job,

Nick VinZant 2:15

essentially, like what makes you good at it,

Fred North 2:17

you need to have a very, very good awareness of the surrounding the moving surrounding, because when we fly super low on these power lines, there is war, there is explosion, that is course, you need to have you in in a fraction of second, you need to photograph everything moving. And you know, if you can go between them, you can go next to them. So you need to have a very comfortable sense of space. And that's something you have or you don't now of course, you can get better and better, but you need to have a base, you know, some people have no sense of that. So you need that. And then the second is you need to connect with your machine. So you need to be one with the helicopter. There is not like it's not you operating the machine, you are the machine. Which means you know, I don't know if you know if you ski but yeah, those key, okay, so if you ski and you go downhill, and sometimes you lose control a little bit because you know, the snow is not good, or whatever it is but you losing control the ski are taking you down, not you. And you can very easily identify that when, you know, shoot, like you you're losing control, and you're going down the ski stacking. So, in a helicopter is the saying you have to be in control, the machine cannot take you somewhere, you cannot allow this to happen. So you need to be one. And for me, the only way to be one with a machine is to be an expert in one type. Which is what I'm doing an expert in the the one you can see on Instagram 99% of the time. It's an Airbus H 125. It's, it's a machine that is plenty technical reason why but and to meet to connect with with them. I often fly barefoot, remove my shoes and my socks. Because I feel the machine with my hands and my feet. And I really feel the helicopter way more when I'm barefoot. If you drive your car without shoes, you're gonna see what I'm talking about. You're gonna I can see that right sensitive. And you basically you can you control the machine by pressure point not movements. So if you have a big pursues, you know you have to you don't feel anything as a pressure point. You have to move physically something to react. But if you want to fly, you know, like a feather, you need pressure point. So that's basically I think what you have to be good at.

Nick VinZant 4:49

They're that sensitive, they're very sensitive.

Fred North 4:53

In fact, if you think you turn it's turning without any moving if you fly with me and I'm going to show you the control You're not going to sit moving, we're gonna go 90 degrees to the left.

Nick VinZant 5:04

You know, I guess the only thing I could possibly in my life compared to is like skiing and mountain biking and mountain biking, like, No, you control it. And if you want to go left, well, you think about going left,

Fred North 5:14

it's the same. It's the same principle for any machines. For me, it's exactly the same for mountain biking, because the guy doing jerky move is going to fall. You know, you really, it's pressure point, to me, it applies to any kind of machine going fast somewhere or you have to control your bike, you have to be one where your bike, you have to be one with a motorcycle, you have to be one, with anything you do, it's the same for the helicopter.

Nick VinZant 5:37

And I think that anybody can kind of relate to that in the sense that like, Oh, if you're walking or something like that, you take your shoes off, you do have, you do know where you are a lot more,

Fred North 5:47

right? If you do yoga or something, you take your shoes off, you know, you connect for me, it's, it's basic. So some, because of 99.9% of the pilots learn with their shoes, it's not always easy for them to switch. For me, it was just because one day was so hot, it was warm as hell. And I removed my shoes, because I was in the Sahara Desert. And I removed my shoes. Whoo. And then since that day, I don't always take it off. But if it's a complicated sequence, and I'm not in Alaska or somewhere, then my shoes is gone.

Nick VinZant 6:24

So if you're looking at like the precision aspect of it, okay, you've got to be within six inches of this spot of foot, like 10 feet, like how, how close are you going to, like, Okay, you got an A, if you're within X amount of space of where you're supposed to be,

Fred North 6:41

most of the time is going to be to the foot. Because if you look at my friend right now, okay, if I'm a foot of, okay, so it's the same form, informing the helicopter, most of the time they have the camera, and that's what they want to see what's behind me. So if I'm going this way, then you know, the cameras to follow, and then my background change. So it's usually to the foot. You know, I have to be very precise. And I'm always telling everybody's working with us. In our team, I said, you have to be consistent. When you duplicate. Again, and again, and again, a slight movement, yes, to be to the photo half a foot, basically, you have to be perfectly, you know, align with whatever they want. And most of the time where we do, I'm going behind the camera on the ground, and I look what they're going to see and trying to see, you know, what, what will be the limits, like a visual cues, like a building, like, you know, a rooftop or something. And then when I'm coming in with a helicopter, I'm trying to stay within those reference cues that I don't see anymore, because I'm sitting on the film, helicopter, but then we have a ground pilot, what we call ground pilot coordinator, they're very experienced pilot, they're on the ground with radios, the next to the director, and he's listening to what he says. And then he can see the frame because he can see the video. And then he can see from like, 10 feet off is a thread, you know, move one click. So we have love a little code. You know, it's one click two clicks, three clicks, it just means it's a little bit, you know, you can say two feet to the right, but it doesn't mean two feet is mean, a little bit, you know? So that's how we do it.

Nick VinZant 8:22

I'm always fascinated by logistics. So this may be a slight diversion necessarily, but like, how do you get the FAA to approve this like I would, is that because if I was just sitting at my desk at the FAA, and like you're gonna do what?

Fred North 8:35

Well, first of all, you know, we all have an FAA office that we are relating to so like, I'm in LA. So my le copter is at Long Beach airport. So then there is an FAA office there. So it seems 20 years that I've been in America, I've been relating with lax, so Los Angeles Airport, FAA office, and then Long Beach. Both of them know me very well. So we know each other. That's the first thing okay, and the way we do things with them, their job is to protect the public. My job is to protect the public and also to do the shoot. FAA doesn't really care about the shoot. Their job is to protect the public so when I submit the permit, let's say that on a layup to fly between the streets, you know, between the buildings in the street that five feet of the of the of the ground, then I'm going to submit a permit they're going to show how I'm going to protect the public which means apartment buildings. If those guys too close we have to enter the building. If the people wants to stay, they can but they have to approve it. So we go one by one to each apartment and say we are we suggesting you go to a hotel we paying for your hotel room. Would you want to go to you know on the weekend because usually we do that on weekends. If people say no, I don't want to go anywhere. We say okay we would love you to not you don't stay on the balcony you go in the in the in the backroom but if you want to be on the balcony, it's up to you In that case, you become participants, which means now the allowing the taking the risk. So FAA basically is asking us to do our due diligence to protect the public. So we try to always find a place that we don't have apartments, more like, you know, cooperate kind of area in this. Yeah, because the office is closed on weekends. So we will go to sanctuary city in LA and find a place where there's more businesses, because on Sunday morning, they're not there. And if there is like a coffee shop, let's say, then we'll go to the coffee shop. And we'll say how much you make. Sunday from 8am to noon, the guy says 6000, here, 6000, close the door. So this is the way we do it. And then when we submit the permit like that to the FAA, and we, we explain where we enter, where we exhibit how we're going to do all that stuff, they usually, you know, approve the, the permit, and each pilot, they're doing film work, as what we call the motion picture, movie manual. So it's basically 30 pages, and explaining how you are conducting your operation, the filming part, everything and how you protect the public and the crew. And then that that movie manual is valid for two years, and your FAA officials want to renew it. So they're putting basically the liability on the pilot and the responsibility on the pilot. So if you do your job, right, they're going to renew it every two years. But if you not, you know, behaving and you are recognized or something, then they're not gonna give it to you, and then you cannot apply for filming permit.

Nick VinZant 11:36

So on on an average thing, right, like, and I know this, obviously, there's like 50,000 different factors. But it's going to cost a movie production, whatever. Like, how much to just do this? And

Fred North 11:50

I mean, it depends, if we should, like, if we should downtown LA, like when I did the movie, San Andreas, if you remember that, you know, yeah. Brad Payton was the director. And we blocked 11 blocks on downtown LA for half a day, on a Sunday. And it was a bit the million dollar to do that. I'm not talking about how much for production to do the shoot, talking hard part, blocking, you know, we had like 200 people blocking all the access. So you need to have a person on each exit, and then transport any buildings, because you can't let people going outside while we're flying. So the way we do it is, they all have, you know, some sort of clothes that we can see, but they have little flags, red, and green. When I'm on a hover, I can see if I see all the renewal flags green, I know I'm ready to go. If I see there is one red, I'm calling the ground and say hey, there's one guy says red what it what is going on? And then they say, Well, there's a guy that doesn't want to go away. Then we try to speak with him. And then we have the police that is there. LAPD is their policy. You know, there is a lot of agencies involved. The CD people is there the so they can be foreign to people, you know, managing that airspace. So you know, it's a lot, lot to do. So it costs a lot of money. But you know, at the end, you have an amazing action sequence.

Nick VinZant 13:19

Yeah, I was I've got some of your kind of work queued up. I'll get to that in a little bit. I was like, Holy crap. That's impressive. Um, yeah. Are you ready for some kind of harder listener submitted question? Sure. Hardest stunt that you've ever done? What one would you say? Like, oh, that was the

Fred North 13:37

people don't call me unfortunately, for boring stuff. So it's always a little bit of a challenge, okay, because people call me to do you know, advance and challenging, so I'm known for that. So I will say, first of all, the Fast and Furious movie, you know, low and dirty car chase, that's always pretty exposed, you know, the Fast and Furious. I've done all of them since number four, and we're prepping number 11. To even idea so it's a family it became a family thing but the strong people and you know as on the Arielle team, we're like one family, you know, like, we love each other, we know each other. So it's always tricky. But the last two more difficult, you know, stata had to do there is one that I'm explaining in my book, you know, flying sideways, that is going to be we're going to start shipping like mid September end of September, just, you know, for people to know. And I'm explaining so on the last extraction to movie that was released on Netflix, like two months ago. I have to learn on a moving train to drop off five guys. And the complication of that sequence originally when I told the director we can do that we were supposed to shoot it in Australia. Because Chris Hemsworth our lead actor living there, he wanted to do it there but he was doing COVID And what And we were supposed to do it there. There was a rail track, open, no trees, nothing. So I had plenty room to do the approach land on a moving train and, and Bell. But then COVID happened. And then they asked us to do it in Europe. And we did it in Czech Republic. And the problem, there were trees. So long story short, we only had 28 seconds free of trees to do the gag. So now I told him, you know, we can do it. And now it's hard for me to tell them well, you know, it's going to be tricky, because now you only gave me 20 seconds. What they would have told me, You should have told us you need XYZ, like 45 seconds. I said, I even didn't think to let you guys know, because there was not even a question, right? Anyway, at that point, the ship was sailed. And we're already in it. So we have to, you know, do the do that stunt. It's complex to land a helicopter with one's kid on the train. And five guys going out because it's about 1000 pounds, transfer, weight transfer. So if you could one skip, the helicopter is already you know, not really balanced. But when the guys get out, you have basically in three seconds, four seconds, 1000 pounds off. So to recap, you can tip over, you have to control the balance, and then at the same time, you're 60 miles an hour on a moving train, and you have only 28 seconds. So we had to. So that was a difficult, you know, sequence. So if you watch the movie, then you're going to see what I'm talking about. It's very short on the movie, but you're gonna see exactly what we're doing. So to prep that one. So in the book, you know, I'm really explaining all the details, what went through my mind. I we did it, how he was safe. And the whole thing that went through my mind. So you know, if anybody's interested, it's in, it's in the book. So that was the extraction to, you know, if the viewers want to, to look he was, you know, it's also a fun movie. And it's crazy action. And there's other crazy stuff with recoveries in there. But then I've done another one. And I cannot talk too much about it because the movie hasn't been released yet. But I'm in Beverly Hills, cops four with Eddie Murphy, and the movie is not out yet. We've done a crazy helicopter sequence that was one of the most difficult in my career. And it was extremely challenging, like, crazy cars being inches from me. So I cannot say too much. But when the movie is coming, coming out, if you want to do another podcast, then I will be more than happy to explain because it was mind blowing crazy shit. So and the movie is funny, because of course, Eddie. Yeah, he's

Nick VinZant 17:40

funny.

Fred North 17:41

He's funny how,

Nick VinZant 17:42

like, if you were to put a number on it, right? Like, how often 5% 10% 20% Whatever, like, how often do you say like, we can't do that,

Fred North 17:51

in fact, is, it's very rare. Because usually, when they suggest for me to do something, or more than one, to suggest to do something crazy than them, because they, they don't know what we can do, and we cannot do. So often they're more conservative in the writing. And more like, well, we can fly inside a building with a helicopter and, you know, oh, we can fly inside a building. We can these days, a lot of other things to do to make that happen in the structure, but we can and then you know from that from there, they're trying to massage the storyline. So professional, most of the movie, we do our big budget, and people are amazing. They're the top of the line. They know what they're doing. So when you speak with a director, and he's suggesting something immediately if you say, you know, that's gonna be tricky to do, but if you want you can do it that way. Okay, great. Great. And then people catch up on it. So it's never like, No, you guys crazy, because it's not that kind of relationship.

Nick VinZant 19:00

Yeah, that makes sense. I would have like no idea what you were capable of doing.

Fred North 19:04

You know, for the train. For example, the director didn't ask me to learn on it. He asked me can you go above the train? And can you hoist or repelling five guys on the train? But moving? Can you do that? I say sure, but that's boring. I said, you know, people, that's boring stuff, why we don't land on the damn train. Can you do that? I said, I think so. I never done it. But I think so. And then from there, he decided to write the old story, the third act on it, you know, so it's more of that kind of relationship where I want to be supportive to the movie and I really want to do something. Wow. You know, for the audience. I really want the people to say what the heck you know, and I want to create inspiration I want to create and I don't want to send some error again when I do I say that because it's not my you know, I really want people to say oh, we can do this. I mean this insane and then maybe they want to be a helicopter pilot. Maybe they're gonna want to be, you know, I don't know, just to suggesting the young guys out there, you know, yes, we can do that, you know, there is a way to do a lot of stupid stuff in life if you do it in a smart way. And I'm not saying smart, but with the team, we're trying to do it as much as possible. This is one that

Nick VinZant 20:19

I I'll just straight up ask it to you, right? Like, how do you feel about drones and CGI? Like, is that going to replace this?

Fred North 20:26

So often people ask the question, and in fact, it's two different things. So let's start with the drone. So drones is a new basically a new filming platform that happened, you know, seven, eight years ago. And when that came in to the picture, of course, people say, oh, you know, that's it, we're going to use drones helicopter down and bla bla bla bla bla bla and me personally I know exactly what the drone can do and cannot do. And if you think about it for a second operating a drone with a camera system at low level between obstacles and stuff is way more difficult than people think. It is. Because to be remotely detach from the camera okay and from the flying part you on the ground and that thing is some level then you are higher. Now there is no connection between those two pieces. And if you look at every other filming tool we have in the in Hollywood UK we have camera car the camera is directly attached on the car on the little crane but so touch the cameraman does the joystick you can operate the camera that is in the car so he's moving with the camera. Okay, so he can make his decision creative decision on the goal is with the camera. Okay, the dolly grip is pushing his Dolly the camera is there. The crane operator the camera is on the crane so is always a connection. They have direct connect helicopter flying directly with a camera. Steadicam, the guy is holding the camera. So 99.9% of the camera system in the filming business are the cameraman are connected and pilot directly with a camera. Drone? No. That's everything. Okay, so now drones will lack in spatial orientation. Okay, the guy is detached from it, you ask the guy to go around the building? How does he know he can go around the building? Just looking at the monitor where the drone goes. And as I work that way, you go straight? Now you need to make a right? How do you see that it's clear to the right. When do you know. So if you wait to clear the wall that is on your right to make a turn, you wait too far, then the shot is going to be boring, or you have to go slowly now, because when you make the turn, what happens if there is a pole, and then you turn a boom, you hit the pole. So it's not as simple and people think so then that makes it's also drawn lack of depth of field. It's very hard for them to know. You know, because you're looking at it to the monitor which is flat, there is no depth. So it's very hard for a drone pilot to know you know how far he is on a moving you know is moving. Also, you have to understand that most of them only have like eight to 12 minutes battery range. So they don't have a lot of time really to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse and do it. They have to do one or twice and then land change the battery to one or twice land and do the battery etc, etc. So it's not as easy than people think. So it's to me, it's a complete different animal than a camera look after a 1000 horsepower cameraman and pilot on board, we flying the camera, I'm becoming the camera that he got to disappear, you know. So you have to see the differences. I will say the overlap between the two is maybe 10% 10%. The drone do I can do 10% You know what the helicopter does? They can do. I mean,

Nick VinZant 23:59

it kind of sounds like in the sense of like, I don't remember who the director of that movie was. But it was the most recent Mad Max movie where they did it all like without any of that stuff. And there was just a certain amount of like, whatever words you were, like wrongness or realness to it that was like, Oh, it brought you into it so much.

Fred North 24:19

Exactly. Yeah. So much more. And to me, you want to avoid the effects. It's the same with me in the helicopter. You know, I want to be careful the way I shut something has to be organic. Because yes, you don't want to, for the audience to think oh, that was an helicopter shot. Because this has nothing to do with the story. So you always have to be very careful the way you are flying because you don't want to cut that connection with the you know what, whatever you filming as a film pilot, that's your job. And as a drone operator is the same and director that do really big, big big movies or have a good sense they know and they're gonna say Fred, we're gonna use you for this and we're gonna use this you know with a drone

Nick VinZant 24:59

in the CGI part. aren't like, I could repeat it. So switch

Fred North 25:02

CGI, as it says this computer graphic images. So what does it means? It means you're building from scratch. Fake background. Okay? So it's like a cartoon, or you're shooting something real. And in the back, let's say there is a bridge, across the ocean, that bridge doesn't exist. So they're going to CG the bridge. What happened with CG is, if it's not in your face, you can live with it for a few seconds, but if it's in your face, now, people are not stupid. They can tell it's not. True, real. So again, you don't want anything that disconnect you from the story. So to me bad CG. People say what the heck is that you don't even you know, I don't know if you remember the movie, a team, the last one that was maybe 10 years old. And it was a tank that is falling out of the sky from a plane. And that tank was so badly made, like so poorly made, the cg of that tank was like horrible. And to me if you can destroy the sequence, because it's so bad. That is like, looks like it's a cartoon like. And that's about CG. So, in the helicopter world, CG is giving us more work. Because we have to shoot those plates. What we call plates is basically we have to shoot the background, that they're going to put stuff in it. So let's say okay, the days, let's say the last Top Gun movie, okay, there's all those jets flying and everything. In standard is a jet flying. Each time you see a window off to the side, let's say you're filming, the actor is talking. But behind him, there's a window, you think they're already filming what's going on. Beyond that window? No, they're filming the guy. And they put a green piece of screen on the window. And then we shoot that part separately, no place. And then they take any piece that light, and they're gonna put it in the window. That's CG. So we do a lot of work like that a lot a lot. I will say you represent 40% of what we do. To me, it

Nick VinZant 27:11

sounds like you're shooting the foundation for them to kind of put things on

Fred North 27:13

Correct, correct. And they need the reality the true image so they can put some fake in it, but he cannot build a fake. To give you an example. Like if you take a Fast and Furious movie, the numbers seven or eight, I think the eight there was a submarine going through the ice. And we saw that in Iceland, there was no submarine Of course, the submarine is CG, what we shot, we saw the ice, and we tried to find a little crack in the ice, we showed that so they can just use that cracker and use that to crack to burst summary. So then the only thing that was fake was a summary, you can even push it more than that you can go shoot a submarine that is on the water, you shoot it the same way you're going to shoot it if it was in the ice, we should the ice part, we should the summer in part, and then they put the two together. That's CG, for example.

Nick VinZant 28:09

That's crazy.

Fred North 28:10

That's how we do it for a lot of in Top Gun, you know, two jets flying above each other. We should one then we showed this one. And then they put it together.

Nick VinZant 28:21

Um, for this, like what's kind of happening? Walk me through this a little bit.

Fred North 28:25

So this is the movie Gran Turismo, that has been released in theater last night. And I wanted to see to see it last night. Because I love to see the movies, you know, in a theater, you know, I don't mind watching on TV, but I think we need to go to the theater to support and also watch that is like a like a big event. So here basically in the story, you have those those young pilots driver that the racing and in the helicopter, there is a there is like an engineer and an instructor that is giving giving guidance to those guys, so they wanted me to be super close to the cars and going with them. So here I have to be very careful that you see the blades are pretty close to the cars in the turn. So I have to be very careful for the blades to not of course that's one of the car and you have to match your speed. And also there's a lot of obstacles, there's the seats there is you can see by his bridges Overpass, so it was tricky to do to a unit to have the same speed on the car. And you have to understand that any country is 2.5 tonnes. So you have to manage the weight and the momentum. And I'm sitting on the front left from what you can see here. So I'm on the opposite side of the car we make it a bit more difficult because the car on the on the left side of the helicopter and I'm sitting on the right. So it's not always easy. So I need to keep an angle so I can have a visual on the car. And you know it takes a little bit to to do that safely, of course but that's what's happening here.

Nick VinZant 29:53

I would think that it's really hard to match that speed.

Fred North 29:57

Time because what you can't see To the right days overpasses, and you have to dive down to get to the level of the car. So you can really match the speed and then get the turn, you have to kind of be because also the cars change speed all the time. So yeah, most of the time, I'm asking the stunt drivers when they've drive those cars, be consistent with your speed. Because if they go super fast, and they hit the brake, and they make the turn, it's impossible for me to manage that speed. Because I'm 2.5 times. You know, if I slow down, I have to flare. And then when I flare, I'm losing sight of what is in front of me. Because the nose goes at me since so I'm always asking them to help me with the speed. And that's what those guys do. Of course, they're most of the time their friends, you know, the stunt drivers, and we help each other. This one.

Nick VinZant 30:48

This one, oh, man. Yeah.

Fred North 30:54

So a lot of people were wondering how we did this, because it's not easy to be in the turbulence of the other one. But there is a basic technique here you can see. So you see the propellers and all that wind come towards me. But if you go back to the beginning of the video, my blades that are above us are above the propeller of the plane, that's how you stay off turbulence, the helicopter gets some, but that doesn't matter. As long as the blades don't get the turbulence. It's irrelevant.

Nick VinZant 31:24

Oh, so you have to be just, you're above the high point of his wing of the thing. Or you're just

Fred North 31:32

it goes to the wings, it's the tip of the wing will create a vortex, and the propellers will blow a lot of wind towards me. So as long as the blades are my blades that are above me right now my rotor system is above the propeller and above the wings, then there is no factor for the helicopter because my rotor system is like a wing, in a sense. So if that's getting clean air, there is no turbulence. If the helicopter get, you know, turbulence is you're going to shake a little bit, but he's no problem with that. He's like, if I'm pushing you a little bit,

Nick VinZant 32:06

you know? Yeah, it's the thing that I would think of, in my mind, it's like somebody pushing my upper body while I'm running well, as long as you don't hit my legs, I'm fine. Exactly.

Fred North 32:14

So it's kind of the same here. So we only like five feet from from the plane, because it's shot with an iPhone, by the way by cell phone. So it's pretty wide issue,

Nick VinZant 32:25

you really like five feet behind the plane was shooting with an iPhone.

Fred North 32:29

I'm not sure a friend of mine is shooting behind it.

Nick VinZant 32:32

So how does like I would not have thought that a helicopter could take off like that.

Fred North 32:38

So in fact, helicopters are like a pendulum. Okay, there is one rotor system. So it's pandalam. It's a big difference between helicopters and drones. Drones are multi rotors. So they all go in opposition to each other. This is why it's hard for them to turn, because they're all going in opposition with each other. US we have 1x. So it's very easy to say pandalam effect. Okay, so here, it's the same principle. So stalking off is like a pendulum. So as long as the forces pull you in one direction, you can be almost any direction. So here, the only way to be really straight down is to have to go in super fast. On one direction, the helicopter will just follow the rotor system. So as long as you go fast, you're not going to fall. But you need the traction. It's like a gigantic propeller going, you know, down, as long as it's pulling you forward. No problem, you need to know what you're doing. So you don't touch the ground. But if you look very carefully the way we do this, you can see us going up a little bit. We're not Yeah, from the you know, we doing it and then we're going up so it's clear for the blades for the on the ground.

Nick VinZant 33:50

So that's pretty much all the questions that we have. Do you think we left anything out? Did we miss anything was kind of coming up for you? I know you got a big book coming out.

Fred North 33:59

Yep. So you know, my, my book flying sideways was first of all to find the title was not quiet river. Because it's you know, when it when it's there, it's easy to sort of flying sideways. And, you know, took for eight nine months, you know, what title It's so cheesy cliche, you know, you know, so and then one of my neighbor, you know, she said, what you do best? I say, I don't know, flying sideways. That's it. And that's how that thing came in. You know? So it's basically it's a memoir. So it's I've done some crazy crazy things you can say that shit right in, in my life. And the memoir is basically you know starting with extraction right then to explain to people how I feel in my heart when I'm when I put myself in this position like when I'm ready to land on the train is like what the heck is wrong with me? You know why? Why am I why am I you know why? You know, and so anyway, see all that stuff that go to my mind. And then, at the end, again, a piece of extraction again to close that chapter. And in between, you're gonna see from Africa to Hollywood, how do you go from born and raised in Africa with, you know, parents, as a teacher? As a French person? Don't speak English, no, Visa nothing and in Hollywood, and do all the big movies how that this happened. And one of the reasons why we wrote the book is because on my social media, there's so many young kids out there, asking me, How can we be a film pilot? How can we do this? How can we do that, and I'm always taking the time to respond to them. But then we thought, with my wife, you know, that, you know, wrote the book with me piggy north, like Lucky for me that she did worry, because as a pilot, you know, forget the writing. But it's basically you know, explaining to those guys it's not, it's there is not like, like a like a menu like you can to succeed in life and go to what you want to do. It's not a B, C, D, like something you lie now. It's your it's what the way you are going through your life with the discipline and the commitment, the hard working. But all those things are just words. But what I mean is, quick, quick, quickly, in the book, I explain it, but I, I did an army, US Air Force test to be a jet fighter pilot, because I have no clue when I was 18. And I did all the testing and everything. And at the end, the guy that was in charge of making the decision, it was like a general, he said, you know, you're not going to pass because you'll, you'll be a terrible pilots, you will be absolutely so bad at it that we're not going to take a chance with you out. I was 18. So it was a shock to me. You know, I was really depressed for a few weeks. But then I figured Who is that guy? To tell me what I'm good at? Why, you know, why should I you know, trust, trust Him. So that didn't stop me. That's what I mean. The book is basically to explain that as long as you have the will, and you have the passion, and you want you do what you think is right for you, then you're going to be successful, and you're going to do what you want to do. So that's what the book is kind of about.

Nick VinZant 37:19

I want to thank Fred so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites, or Profoundly Pointless on tick tock, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. His new book comes out on October 3, and we have put a link to that as well. And if you want to see some of the stunts that we've talked about, the YouTube version of this interview will be live on September 21, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. If you could fly, like fly on your own, how high would you fly up in the sky? Like if you're just traveling around? Are you going on ground level? You're going way up there?

John Shull 38:09

I mean, what's the limits? Like? Can I go to space? You can

Nick VinZant 38:13

go to space, but only like momentarily. You have to be able to breathe on your own right? You've got no supplemental oxygen.

John Shull 38:23

I mean, I would go probably to where the planes are.

Nick VinZant 38:26

You'd go see I would do that. I would stay really low I would go like honestly I'd probably fly like house level because I wouldn't trust the fact that I would be able to fly that much. Like I'm gonna stay pretty close here just in case.

John Shull 38:40

I mean, I would have want to be high enough out of like, gunshot range, but low enough to where I could still see some of the ground

Nick VinZant 38:49

Oh yeah, that is a good thing. That's a really honestly the truth about I think system human civilization is that if you could fly somebody would probably try to take a shot at you.

John Shull 38:59

Yeah, and my big ass you know, I'm getting shot at what would

Nick VinZant 39:02

you do if you just saw somebody like just flying down the street?

John Shull 39:08

I mean, I gotta tell you I saw something similar. The North American Auto Show is in town and they had a flying car company that was showcasing a flying car and that was pretty nuts to see

Nick VinZant 39:21

was it but it was it actually flying like did this car actually fly?

John Shull 39:28

I mean with without without making it sound completely lackluster. They have some kinks to work out. I'll say that

Nick VinZant 39:36

so you just yes or no did it fly or not? Like did it or didn't like jump? Like he got up go for a second. But then it came right back down.

John Shull 39:45

It flew. But I'm not I'm not entirely sure. Like, let me put it this way. I don't think I'm ever going to see a sustainable flying car in my lifetime.

Nick VinZant 39:57

Okay, answer this question. If you were an Indian Esther in this flying car company, and you went to their big presentation. And what you saw happened, would you want your money back? Would it be like this was a good investment?

John Shull 40:12

If I knew now, what I what I if I can know it, then I wouldn't even show up.

Nick VinZant 40:18

Oh, yeah, so the car really didn't fly in other words.

John Shull 40:22

I mean, it did, but it was. I don't know. They put like extra propellers on the bottom. It wasn't like it just started up and took off and flew. No.

Nick VinZant 40:31

So it was like they were gonna design a robot. And then at the end of it, it turns out it was just like a guy in robot suit. Yeah, look, I'm just saying I'm not flying very high house level. That's where I'm gonna fly. Maybe three or four stories up. That's as far as I'm gonna go. I'm not going to put me

John Shull 40:46

with the Eagles in the Falcons.

Nick VinZant 40:49

Okay, all right. I don't really have any other brilliant questions for you. And we'll throw an opportunity to kitchen.

John Shull 40:55

Why? I'm just trying. I'm just changing it up a little bit to changing it

Nick VinZant 40:59

up. Show us the tongues. Can you show us the tongues?

John Shull 41:02

I don't have any tongs down here.

Nick VinZant 41:04

You have two kitchens in your house?

John Shull 41:07

Yes, I'm in my basement.

Nick VinZant 41:09

You have two kitchens.

John Shull 41:12

I do have two kitchens. Yes.

Nick VinZant 41:14

Was it always like, Did you specifically design the second kitchen and think I need another kitchen? Or are we like are you planning for the future for when somebody's parents are moving in?

John Shull 41:27

I'm just wanted a sustainable living space.

Nick VinZant 41:31

So you needed to kitchen to have sustainable living space?

John Shull 41:35

I mean, if I wanted to, I could easily rent out my basement. So that's also a possibility.

Nick VinZant 41:43

Now, did you was that the original plan or did you try to like okay, that was your justification like But honey, we could do this?

John Shull 41:52

No, I didn't. I didn't want to redo my basement at all. Actually, my wife is the one who pushed it.

Nick VinZant 41:58

Okay, let's just quick, quick time check. Five minutes into the show. John has mentioned his basement. You brought it up? I always regret it though. Right? Like, oh, crap. It's gonna get him talking about his basement.

John Shull 42:15

I mean, I'm sorry. I'm passionate. You You asked me a question about how flat are I? Wow, how high? Would I want to fly? If that's not useless? I don't know what it is.

Nick VinZant 42:25

I think it's an important look at basically how people think, right? Do you want to stay grounded? Do you want to live off there and fantasy world. And it kind of seems like you want to live off there and fantasy world way up in the sky. I want to stay close to the Earth. I want to keep I actually like to keep my feet on the ground as much as possible. I don't really like when my feet leave the ground. I'm even jumping. I like my feet on the ground. jogging or running is about as much up in the air as I really want

John Shull 42:52

to be. Do you do a lot of jumping? Nowadays,

Nick VinZant 42:56

I do actually jump 30 times a week. I go to the gym and I jump onto this little box and I do it 30 times. So I jump 30 times a week.

John Shull 43:05

Wow. Look at you, man. Good for you getting out there and getting back. I'm

Nick VinZant 43:08

trying man. Right. Trying to try to maintain what little athleticism I have.

John Shull 43:14

You know what, uh, you know what pisses me off? Okay,

Nick VinZant 43:17

let's hear it. Let's hear it.

John Shull 43:19

Man, men, specifically men here. Who think adult softball is a sport.

Nick VinZant 43:26

It's an activity. It's a pastime for some people. I generally and this is maybe going to offend anybody who I don't generally like former baseball players. There's something about baseball. There's something about baseball that people can never give up. Like, I think that if you asked a guy who's in his 50s Like, yeah, you gotta leave your wife and kid right now but you got to try out with minor league baseball team. I think they would do there's something about baseball, they can just never get past it. See that?

John Shull 43:55

No. See, that's if you ever played high school football? You can't let that go.

Nick VinZant 44:00

Yeah, that would be a good top five top five sports. You can never let go. I would put baseball is number one you would put football? Yeah. Me and that's gotta be difficult though to like peak at a young age in your life. I would say I've just now hit the age where like, Oh, my life is I would honestly say that my life has really just begun.

John Shull 44:24

I mean, that's that's a good question. Would you rather hit the peak early, or coast and then hit the peak in a different way non athletically. Later in your life,

Nick VinZant 44:36

I would rather have the build up of my life start around like 3540 and then peak around 5055 And then maybe hold on to whatever that is for another 10 or 15 years. So I would much rather have like, I would much rather build up later in life. Because otherwise man like that's it for some of those athletes like that's a long time to be headed downhill.

John Shull 45:00

I mean, it's that's why you hope that whatever money they make they've invested because I mean, look at the NFL and I don't know the numbers. So don't quote me on this. But if you're running back and you go into the NFL 22 Oh, you're probably what done by at least 30? If not 20 789, you still have 60 years to live.

Nick VinZant 45:21

Yeah, I think if you're some of those guys that are maybe making like a million or two a year for a couple of years, like that's a lot of money at once, but it's not a lot of money for your life. Like, I don't know. Anyway, we don't have these aren't problems that we have to really worry about?

John Shull 45:36

No, well, you are jumping a box 30 times a week. I don't want you to get hurt.

Nick VinZant 45:40

Not only do I jump a box, and I also do like some side to side jumps. So really, it's 60 jumps a week, I jumped 60 times a week, which is probably a 10,000% increase in the number of jumps that I was doing before. When's the last time you actually sprint it like dead sprint it

John Shull 46:00

sometime this summer, I actually was hitting a good spot where I was running every other day. And I was finished with a sprint. Now I don't know if that's a fat sprint. But that was me thinking I was sprinting

Nick VinZant 46:10

but you went all out like as hard as you could sprint.

John Shull 46:14

Usually for the last 10th of a mile. I tried to go as fast as I could.

Nick VinZant 46:18

You would sprint for a 10th of a mile. So long ways. Dude, that seems like you're gonna blow out some shit.

John Shull 46:24

Well, maybe I was trying to. Yeah, give me an excuse.

Nick VinZant 46:28

Give you an excuse to quit. I worked out just hard enough to quit.

John Shull 46:32

Alright, anyways, let's get some shout outs to some people. Let's see. We'll start with Reynolds Pierce. Tyler Klein's name

Nick VinZant 46:40

is Reynolds Pierce. It's not pierce Reynolds. That's backwards. It has to be backwards.

John Shull 46:47

I don't know. I'm just going by what I saw on social media.

Nick VinZant 46:51

I think it name would be pierced Reynolds. As opposed to Reynolds piers.

John Shull 46:56

Do you know piers Reynolds? No,

Nick VinZant 46:58

but Pierce Reynolds makes more sense than Reynolds Pierce. I feel like

John Shull 47:02

well, let's let's let's keep going. Jacob boy's fierce

Nick VinZant 47:07

peers. That's what I would have named him fierce. So his name was fierce Pierce.

John Shull 47:12

No, Ethan Brock. Dom Gambino. Zaidan, Arnold, Jack Parker, Dustin Brown, Jose Sanchez and Julia gorgey.

Nick VinZant 47:28

I don't mind a Z named man. There's not a lot of Z names, but they're usually pretty solid.

John Shull 47:34

It's hard to really Yeah, it's hard to nail down like a good Z name.

Nick VinZant 47:38

Zack. Solid. It's actually the literally the only ze name that I can think of. For a man is Zeiler for some reason.

John Shull 47:48

Xilinx Eilers the name I think it is Zion.

Nick VinZant 47:51

That's a good name.

John Shull 47:53

Let's see here. Let's do some factor fiction with Profoundly Pointless, pointless stuff.

Nick VinZant 48:00

Can you just explain to me like your thought process for either doing your bangers questions, as you call them, or doing factor fiction like is? What's the thought process behind it? How do you decide which one you're gonna do?

John Shull 48:16

There is no thought process. That's why it's pointless. As you say, every week introducing me, and now with the pointless part of the podcast?

Nick VinZant 48:26

Oh. So do you take that personally?

John Shull 48:30

No, I'm just happy to have a slot. With you.

Nick VinZant 48:35

I feel like that to about life. I'm just generally happy to be living.

John Shull 48:39

I get people who actually think that I know what I'm talking about. When they asked me podcast questions. And I'm like, Yeah, sure. It's yeah, you keep doing it. Sounds good.

Nick VinZant 48:50

Will you give somebody advice even though you don't really know what you're talking about?

John Shull 48:57

No, because I because then if they try it, and they fail, I would feel a little responsible.

Nick VinZant 49:04

I did. I'll go a little too far. I'll take one or two steps beyond what I really know. Like all go a little too far.

John Shull 49:14

Yeah, I just know, I can't I can't do it. I'm I mean, I embellish but I don't give people advice because I don't. It's kind of like, like I learned one time because I you know, I do a little betting and things like that. And I gave someone a terrible bet. And they put down like $50 on it. And last fall $50 And I'll never forget it. So no, I don't know not doing it.

Nick VinZant 49:40

That's not really a lot of money. Was that what age of life was that? That you felt like? I mean, $50 is a good amount of money. Don't get me wrong, but that's not a huge amount when it comes to oh, I mean, it's not like 500 bucks or something.

John Shull 49:53

I mean, I remember exactly where it was when it was I was 23 years old and

Nick VinZant 49:59

that Yeah, that's Madison amount of money for a 23 year

John Shull 50:02

old. Yeah, man, I don't know how much you're making. But

Nick VinZant 50:07

I don't care if I was a millionaire, I'd be pissed about losing 50 bucks.

John Shull 50:11

You are pretty, pretty frugal, like pretty cheap.

Nick VinZant 50:14

Yeah, I'm cheap. I agree.

John Shull 50:17

All right. Let's see. Now back to the pointless part of the podcast. Factor fiction. One human year equals seven dog years.

Nick VinZant 50:28

It's not really true.

John Shull 50:31

You are correct. It is not true. It's been debunked multiple times, actually. Yeah, apparently, it depends on the size of the breed of the dog as to how old they are compared to you know, human years.

Nick VinZant 50:49

The thing that I had heard was that they don't age the same way that we do, that they're basically fully grown by the time they're a year old. And then they kind of stay middle aged until they get really old.

John Shull 51:02

Yeah, well, yeah. What I was reading by scientists was that it's it all depends on the dog's breed. And like how big they are.

Nick VinZant 51:12

That's pretty much that's the difficult thing about life is the answer for basically any question that anyone ever asks you is it depends.

John Shull 51:21

Yeah, I mean, or you wear them.

Nick VinZant 51:24

Why? What is or you wear them have to do? Well, it is depends,

John Shull 51:29

you know,

Nick VinZant 51:30

Ah, okay. Okay.

John Shull 51:33

Adult diapers. Come on. Got him.

Nick VinZant 51:36

Yeah. Well, we both lost that one.

John Shull 51:42

All right, let's see true or false. Your blood makes up about 8% of your body weight.

Nick VinZant 51:49

You have nine? Well, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, sure. Why not?

John Shull 51:55

That's why these are great questions, because No, you'll never be asked us again. That is true, actually. Yeah, it's according to the American Society of Hematology

Nick VinZant 52:09

was about have you ever lost a lot of blood?

John Shull 52:11

Yeah, well, I mean,

Nick VinZant 52:15

I probably shouldn't laugh at that. But it is it was funny.

John Shull 52:18

I mean, I think I've talked about it a brief second I heard it free cut me off. But I have a actually a bleeding disorder. I don't, I don't clot like normal people. I'm not like him if I'm not a hemophiliac or I have hemophilia I have like the sister to it. So it just takes me a lot longer to clot so if I ever if I have a bad gash like the Saturday I cut my my my leg open we'd whipping and you know it's still kind of like an open wound because it just hasn't completely clotted all the way yet because there's a pretty deep laceration

Nick VinZant 52:50

good eye man you like you look I mean words you use their gash laceration What is it what's going on over there? Dr. Show you steadily stuff studying to be for the medical boards. There. I

John Shull 53:03

mean, there is a there is a doctor shawl but I have not related.

Nick VinZant 53:07

Oh, yeah. And if people ask you about that shit all the time, like hey, doctors roles are you put?

John Shull 53:12

No, I mean, I used to get teased for it. For whatever reason back in back when I was a child, but completely different spellings. So I don't really have to

Nick VinZant 53:21

worry about it. I got made fun of because of the Nickelodeon thing. Who Nick Jr. Nickelodeon.

John Shull 53:29

That's the stupidest. That's that sounds dumb. Not gonna lie to you.

Nick VinZant 53:33

I'm also from Kansas. So I got that. You're not in Kansas anymore all the time. Whenever there's a really obvious thing to say to somebody. Don't say it. Don't say it. Just keep it to yourself.

John Shull 53:46

Just let it's I'll ever forget the comedian Ron White. When said next time you have a thought. Just let it go. Yeah. It's funny, man. I it's funny. I think that's an underrated art that has that, that people don't appreciate is making other people laugh like that.

Nick VinZant 54:06

I don't this is my big theory now. And now you're gonna have to hear my whole theory about why there's no, I don't think that there's really any more good comedies or comedy series anymore. Because real life is just too funny. Like you can't compete with Tik Tok or Instagram or any of those kinds of social media things where like, you just can't compete with real life. And I can see like the all the other things that people think of are just funnier. Like if I had a choice between going and see a comedian or watching like social media for an hour. I might have way more fun on social media like it's just funnier.

John Shull 54:40

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a good place for the art like I said, I don't get me wrong. Are you tick talkers and young people out there but I, I don't really think making a tick tock makes you an artist.

Nick VinZant 54:53

I mean, you can be creative in many different ways. I think creativity is creativity. I just think that those things are funnier now. Right, like people are funny, like, there's a lot of funny people and ultimately, comedians, you can only think of so many things. Anyway, there's my whole thing. There's my rant.

John Shull 55:09

Or this one might grow some people up, but I thought it was gross once. I thought it could potentially be interesting. Okay. Do you know what figs are?

Nick VinZant 55:19

Yeah, dude, it's like a food. Right?

John Shull 55:22

That's great. Okay, good. Well, you know it's can be exotic sometimes. Figs aren't considered vegan. Because they have dead wasps.

Nick VinZant 55:31

I don't want to know about this stuff. What do you mean they have dead? What? I don't want to know about anything that's in my food. I never want to know how the proverbial sausage is made. I don't want to know about any of it.

John Shull 55:43

Okay, I don't want to know about any of it. All right. Well, that's that's true, by the way.

Nick VinZant 55:51

Do they have dead wasps inside of them?

John Shull 55:53

I'll see. Now you want to know I

Nick VinZant 55:54

don't really want to know. But

John Shull 55:58

while figs themselves are fruit, they often include bugs according to vegan life. They explained that a female Wasp will enter the fig passing into a part of the plant known as the Cal Myrna, while trying to lay her eggs. Eventually she will die and is broken down by a protein digesting enzyme inside of the fig.

Nick VinZant 56:21

Oh, then she's not let's not really there. If it's all broken down. It's not like you're gonna bite into the fig and the dead wasp is

John Shull 56:28

in there. No, but her body's in there.

Nick VinZant 56:31

It's broken down, right? If it gets turned into like your bait, like if it digests it, essentially and it's just all that's left is like whatever the parts of the wall like, right like the wasps legs were turned into whatever chemical and it's now in there, like if it's broken down. It's not a big deal to buy crap and everything.

John Shull 56:52

Listen, I was just shocked by that, that that, you know,

Nick VinZant 56:57

I'm not eating any. Anyway, that's it. That's the food that I would never go to the grocery store and buy

John Shull 57:02

at a see I love things Majan that Of course I do.

Nick VinZant 57:05

You're just eating figs by itself.

John Shull 57:07

Oh, they're delicious, man. Anyways, All right, last one here.

Nick VinZant 57:14

Got Of course you're eating it. Food snob. Pointless fact all you have here all you have is apples. You don't have any figs or dates or kumquats.

John Shull 57:26

You ever had a come? I

Nick VinZant 57:27

honestly don't even know what it is. But I love saying the word. Like if you put a kumquat in front of me, I wouldn't know what it was at all.

John Shull 57:34

I feel like we should really just stop saying the word come quiet. While we're it's a great

Nick VinZant 57:38

word though. Come quiet.

John Shull 57:44

All right, last one here. Daddy Long Legs are the most poisonous spider.

Nick VinZant 57:48

Yes, that is true, but they can't pierce your skin.

John Shull 57:52

Actually, that is not true. Oh, it's not what is daddy long legs aren't even spiders.

Nick VinZant 57:59

Oh, God. See, this is what I mean? Like your your phrasing or your questions are just terrible.

John Shull 58:08

Why? If you if you were an educated person, you would know this

Nick VinZant 58:11

is what gets me upset about it. Right is because you ask the questions based on a technicality. And then when I point out that there's a technicality in there that should make it either the different answer. You don't want to hear that. Right?

John Shull 58:25

I mean, what's the technicality? They're not spiders. They're not arachnids.

Nick VinZant 58:29

It's like, but it's a word choice thing. Right? Like you said, you go in one direction. And then it's like our trips you. It's not a fair. It's not a fair game. That's what I'm saying. It's not a fair game, right? So then if you're gonna say something else, you can't call me if I'm gonna be like, Oh, well, that's a technicality. And it's different. You know what?

John Shull 58:50

I'm not gonna call you or I'm gonna call somebody else. Well, you

Nick VinZant 58:53

text people. Still gonna text?

John Shull 58:57

You right? Nobody actually talks to the phone anymore,

Nick VinZant 58:59

man. Yeah. Yeah, it's do you get annoyed if someone doesn't respond? Like they just don't respond at all. Why are you going to try to text them again at a later date? Are you like, well, nope, that's done.

John Shull 59:17

I mean, there are very few instances and I'm not trying to boast here in my life that I can remember being upset because somebody didn't get back to me. But you remembered

Nick VinZant 59:27

it. Because usually I just forget.

John Shull 59:31

No, I remember because I've actually been told I am not the greatest at getting back to people via text message, but I actually think I'm pretty good. I think you're

Nick VinZant 59:39

fairly good. So what is the most poisonous spider then?

John Shull 59:46

I don't know. I didn't get that far in the research.

Nick VinZant 59:49

Funnel spider. Oh, don't ever look don't look that up. What does it come quite look like how you spell come quiet. K or C.

John Shull 59:59

Come quiet. AUMQUATO

Nick VinZant 1:00:03

Basically just looks like a little orange. Well, now I know what a kumquat is.

John Shull 1:00:08

Hold on. I'm looking up funnel spider.

Nick VinZant 1:00:09

Don't look it up, dude. It's going to be gross. That's fine. Especially if you see like, especially we see what happens when the spider bite. Yeah, dude, I don't don't look that up.

John Shull 1:00:19

Oh man, I think looks that thing looks gnarly.

Nick VinZant 1:00:21

It's amazing what we can survive with or not, I guess survive in some cases? Yeah. Did I mess with that? Okay. Yeah,

John Shull 1:00:29

I'm good with that.

Nick VinZant 1:00:31

Do you have any more facts or fiction things? Are you done making up things you don't make?

John Shull 1:00:36

I'm done making up facts there. Ponyboy.

Nick VinZant 1:00:39

Okay, this is I've never seen that movie, by the way.

John Shull 1:00:43

I mean, outsiders. I've read but no, you didn't.

Nick VinZant 1:00:49

I did. I think it was part of like one of those assigned books that you had to read at a certain point, like for a certain grade or something like that. No, I did. I did. I read the book. I remember because there was this thing where like, I remember a big thing thinking like, oh, he jumped off the front porch. And one guy did a backflip and I was like, Whoa, those guys must be cool.

John Shull 1:01:09

How many books have you read this year,

Nick VinZant 1:01:11

too? Have actually read two books. How many books have you read over there?

John Shull 1:01:19

I've written on submarines alone. God,

Nick VinZant 1:01:22

I bet you have written how many of you really read two books on submarines?

John Shull 1:01:26

I have but they were in the beginning of the year. Um Are they going through books now?

Nick VinZant 1:01:32

Are they different submarines are the same submarine.

John Shull 1:01:35

Different submarines. I don't understand why you hate on me for submarines are technologically like amazingly, technologically, technologically. amazement of the world's society sickness.

Nick VinZant 1:01:52

I'm sure they're incredible. I have to plug in my computer because I think it's gonna die. I'm sure they're incredible. But like,

John Shull 1:01:58

if it dies, I'm just gonna finish this by myself.

Nick VinZant 1:02:02

Are you ready for our top five? Ah, yes. Yeah, yeah. So our top five is top five child stars. There's a lot of child stars. Man. There's a lot of people that couldn't make a good run at this list. Now, how far back in history did you go? Because I only went my lifetime.

John Shull 1:02:25

Yeah, likewise, because yeah, likewise, I was looking like the surely temples. Yeah. I mean, they should be on the list. But they didn't really make an impact in my lifetime. While I was a child, you know what I mean, or a teenager?

Nick VinZant 1:02:42

I think that if you went number one overall all time it would be? Surely temple. I think that yeah, pretty much, that would be the biggest one, but it didn't really have an impact on our lives. So it's interesting that I was actually looking something up about Shirley Temple, she basically made all these movies as a kid and then just stopped. And then didn't make one for I think she was acted from like, 1932 to 1938 or something like that. And then just never did him again.

John Shull 1:03:15

She was by far I mean, I mean, she was the the mode, right? So she has to be number one. But however, I wasn't alive in 1940 or 50. Or whenever she was,

Nick VinZant 1:03:27

you have to be really famous for people. Now to know who you are. If you were back at like 100 years ago. You were probably massively famous.

John Shull 1:03:37

Yeah, I mean, most people who create something or are the precedent usually don't get forgotten.

Nick VinZant 1:03:44

No. So like us making this show.

John Shull 1:03:50

Yeah, hopefully 20 years from now. It'll just be deleted.

Nick VinZant 1:03:56

Okay, what's your number five All right. So

John Shull 1:03:59

once again, just going from you know, our childhood and I think there's a should be a consensus number one possibly,

Nick VinZant 1:04:08

I guess. Both.

John Shull 1:04:10

I guess we'll get we'll get to that in a little bit. So my number five is Elijah Wood.

Nick VinZant 1:04:17

I don't know anything that he did as a kid. I don't know anything that he did as a kid so I'm gonna have to disagree with that.

John Shull 1:04:24

He did the good son. He did forever young. Yeah, so he

Nick VinZant 1:04:30

mentioned anything that I've actually seen

John Shull 1:04:33

of you. So the good son is a terrible movie, but also has a another childhood star in it. That is on my list and those are at home who are listening to this who know who that is. was automatically go Yeah, well just I wonder how high he is on your list.

Nick VinZant 1:04:50

My thing about this though would be is that some people if they have remained pretty famous, remain that their level of fame throughout their lifetime then I don't really consider them to be a childhood star. So for example would be Leonardo DiCaprio, who has been gradually getting more and more famous, so I wouldn't really consider him a childhood star when I think of childhood star, I think of somebody who kind of like tapered off after their childhood.

John Shull 1:05:19

Okay, I mean, that's what I wouldn't put a word on there. That's fair. I see what you're saying. But to me a childhood start doesn't necessarily have to be somebody that was super famous as a kid and fanned out, but somebody that if they didn't have those opportunities as a child probably wouldn't have got, you know, the the opportunities as an adult.

Nick VinZant 1:05:41

My number five is all of the Disney people. I think all of the Disney people are basically the same level right? Like, I can't even name all of them. Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus, Ariana Grande, all of those Disney people I think are about like, all right, they're all kind of the same.

John Shull 1:06:00

I just can't wait for you when you release the top five lists on social media. What you're gonna pick for that animation? You're gonna you're gonna have a lot to choose from and a lot

Nick VinZant 1:06:09

to choose from probably wrecking ball Miley Cyrus.

John Shull 1:06:14

All right, my number four Christina Ricci.

Nick VinZant 1:06:19

Oh, crap. I get her confused with Anna Paquin. Which ones?

John Shull 1:06:24

Ricci The Addams Family?

Nick VinZant 1:06:26

Oh, yeah,

John Shull 1:06:28

Wednesday.

Nick VinZant 1:06:29

Okay. I think it's a little top heavy of a list. I think some of the I think that three, four and five could be people you don't like Oh, yeah. Who which one is that one. Maybe my number four is Kristen dunce or Kyrsten done.

John Shull 1:06:43

Ah, that's my number three.

Nick VinZant 1:06:45

What is your name? Is it Kyrsten? Dunster? Kristen does?

John Shull 1:06:49

Kirsten, it's K IR.

Nick VinZant 1:06:51

It's none of those Kirsten dots.

John Shull 1:06:54

Kirsten Kirsten caston. Would you Boston? I don't know if you

Nick VinZant 1:06:58

had a name where people were constantly mispronouncing it. Well, I have a last name that people are always doing that too. Do you? Would you bother correcting them? Are you just like whatever.

John Shull 1:07:06

i My last name is five letters and people don't say it right.

Nick VinZant 1:07:10

My last name is VinZant. Which people always put Van Zandt or Van Zandt with a D and I just don't even bother.

John Shull 1:07:18

I get Schultz. I get Sure. I get sure i get shell like I never get just show. It's always

Nick VinZant 1:07:26

do you think people get like Tom Smith? Or like John Brown? You think they screw those up too?

John Shull 1:07:34

No. Because listen, we're a simple you know, we're a simple race, right? Like, we like simple things. And those names are simple.

Nick VinZant 1:07:42

Henry Ford. Henri fjord like honoree, like it's fucking Henry.

John Shull 1:07:49

Well, I mean, if you're in France, it could be honoring but it's true. But

Nick VinZant 1:07:52

if people listening to this in the audience if you have a really basic name, like a really simple name, Tom Ford, Bob Jones, let us know if people screw it up. I'd be fascinated is like who is this person? Bobe both Juno is a boob. Fucking Bob

John Shull 1:08:17

jeans fucking Bob is better forever.

Nick VinZant 1:08:20

My name is Lindsay Lohan.

John Shull 1:08:24

See, so I thought about putting her on than I was. Well, then I feel like I have to put Molly Ringwald on.

Nick VinZant 1:08:32

Oh, she's no Lindsay Lohan.

John Shull 1:08:35

I mean, Molly Ringwald was huge in the 80s. And she was a teenager when she made most of those movies.

Nick VinZant 1:08:42

I do always find it hilarious, though. When like it's like I'm a teenager like the look of the actor and they're like 30 Yeah, that is a little weird, right? Like I'm a 16 year old, like, okay, it's really, okay. It's your number two.

John Shull 1:09:00

The Harry Potter kids.

Nick VinZant 1:09:04

You have them as number two. I know who your number one is then.

John Shull 1:09:07

Daniel Radcliffe. Emma Stone. No Emma Watson rather not Emma Stone.

Nick VinZant 1:09:13

Is it Emma Watson? Sarah Watson.

John Shull 1:09:16

No, it's Emma Watson's I know Sarah Watson. I don't know and Emma Watson I don't know

Nick VinZant 1:09:22

a lot of Sarah's to that's what name do you know the most of like what name do you know the most? The most John's mics? Tom's

John Shull 1:09:34

Hmm. I mean, I don't know. I know a lot of mics.

Nick VinZant 1:09:40

I know a good amount of John's three of them. No, that's not true.

John Shull 1:09:47

What's your number two millionaires. I

Nick VinZant 1:09:48

know a decent amount of Jim's is no I don't that's not true at all. Shout out to Jim Cavanaugh. Orlando's finest Jim Dowd also shout out to Jim down, Phoenix's finest. It's all I got Let's go to GDS. Um, just let me know if my number two is your number one. My number two is Macaulay Culkin.

John Shull 1:10:09

Yes, that's my number one. That's

Nick VinZant 1:10:11

what I thought he was a big time childhood star. She's weird that his brother is now a star as an adult.

John Shull 1:10:20

I mean, I there, there wasn't a bigger childhoods movie actor for me growing up then. Besides the cast of the Mighty Ducks and The Sandlot, like individually, there was no there was no one bigger. What was

Nick VinZant 1:10:35

he in that many movies? Or was he just known so much for home alone? Because I can't think of any other movies that he was in besides home alone.

John Shull 1:10:43

Oh, he did like a four or five do he did? Richie Rich. Remember that movie?

Nick VinZant 1:10:48

Yeah, well, no, but I remember that he did it.

John Shull 1:10:54

Hold on, I'm looking it up.

Nick VinZant 1:10:56

There's a really sad one where he liked dies.

John Shull 1:10:59

Oh, yeah. What? Well, he wasn't the good son. He was Elijah Woods Co Co star in that movie?

Nick VinZant 1:11:05

Is that where he's? Probably with him and the girl then one of them die.

John Shull 1:11:10

My girl. Oh, yeah. My girl. That's a great movie. The page master? Come on. What you're gonna hate on the page master?

Nick VinZant 1:11:19

I would if I'd ever seen it or heard of it.

John Shull 1:11:25

Yeah, I mean, the I mean, those are it but like, those are good. Like, those are good enough for him to have to have. I mean, when I when I thought about a top five list, I'm like, okay, he'd be three, four or five. For me ever. In the childhood.

Nick VinZant 1:11:42

He would be up there. My number one is Daniel Radcliffe. I think he's probably the most famous child star, maybe not the biggest child star. But in terms of like, the sheer amount of people who know who he is. It's probably Daniel Radcliffe.

John Shull 1:12:01

Yeah, I mean, once again, it's hard. It's hard, right for like me to say, Sure. Because I have met number two. But like I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a teenager or anything when those movies came out. So I don't know how big they are, to the kids have to today or teenagers today.

Nick VinZant 1:12:21

My justification for it is in he was in just as probably as many movies as any other child star. And those movies were bigger. So that's why I would say that he's the biggest.

John Shull 1:12:33

I mean, it's hard to go against that. But I'm confident and Macaulay Culkin as my number one.

Nick VinZant 1:12:39

Do you think that there has been though? Anybody more famous throughout their entire life than Michael Jackson? Yes. throughout their entire life?

John Shull 1:12:52

Yes.

Nick VinZant 1:12:53

Who are you going to put ahead of Michael Jackson for being famous throughout childhood, teenage, young adult adult getting older? Who would you even put on that level?

John Shull 1:13:04

I mean, it's hard. I mean, you could say LeBron, who was nationally recruited at 1011 12. I mean, he wasn't saying at the age of six, but also LeBron has something Michael didn't have. And I'm not saying this to be funny. But like, LeBron is gonna have like, a long lasting legacy, because he's gonna live to be 7080.

Nick VinZant 1:13:25

But he wasn't on the world stage at that time of his life, like people maybe knew who he was, but he wouldn't have been on like the world stage as a 10 year old. I think Michael Jackson was,

John Shull 1:13:36

I mean, you could say, like a Ronaldo or Messi, those greatest soccer players of all time. I mean, they get into the academies at 910. I mean,

Nick VinZant 1:13:45

but they're not like world famous people who know me know them. But people who really follow that, but I don't think like your casual person. I can't think of anybody that would be on the same level as Michael Jackson. I

John Shull 1:13:58

mean, you make a good point. I mean, it's, it's a it's, it's tough to put anyone with him. But there has to be there has to be somebody as famous or more famous than him.

Nick VinZant 1:14:09

Maybe Leonardo DiCaprio, you could make an argument that has been generally famous throughout his entire life. High level of sameness high level famous.

John Shull 1:14:21

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I will say that being a musician. You know, it's a lot easier, I think, to be a long lasting childhood transitional star than if you're an actor.

Nick VinZant 1:14:32

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Actors careers kind of come and go. Like a lot of the people on our list you don't really hear from that much anymore.

John Shull 1:14:42

No, but would you I mean, if I if I made all that money as a child, I wouldn't work if I if I managed my money correctly.

Nick VinZant 1:14:50

I wouldn't. But then I don't think if you grow up with that, right? Like you probably feel like you've lost something by not being super famous anymore. True. have, you know, but if you gain something you didn't have before your formative years, you're probably just like, Oh, cool. That was an interesting period of my life. Now I'm just gonna sit on my money using your honorable mention.

John Shull 1:15:12

Drew Barrymore. Yeah, probably. Probably worth maybe more but whatever Dakota Fanning

Nick VinZant 1:15:20

which one was she?

John Shull 1:15:23

man she was in a number of of movies. I am Sam. We're the world's

Nick VinZant 1:15:30

Oh, I do remember that fire. Okay. She's the,

John Shull 1:15:34

the little girl and most of those. I mean, and then staying away from the older childhood stars. I mean, you know, those are probably the two that I that I put out there.

Nick VinZant 1:15:45

The only other one that I had on mine had a couple. Screech and Urkel pretty big child stars.

John Shull 1:15:53

Yeah, both turned out to be great adults, I think Yeah. Didn't

Nick VinZant 1:15:56

seem to be headed and that seemed to head in the other direction. Hailey Joe Osmond kid from the sixth sense. He was big time

John Shull 1:16:06

fool. Man. That's who's the kid from Star Wars two.

Nick VinZant 1:16:12

He dropped out completely. I think star Jake. Jake something. Yeah, but he was in those movies and then like nothing else it like completely ruined it for him.

John Shull 1:16:22

Fuck, man. That you're kind of making me kind of go back on my list now because yeah, that those are two good ones.

Nick VinZant 1:16:32

child actor from Star Wars. But he was like driven out of it.

John Shull 1:16:40

Or even Hayden Pendency air like he was a hate and pennants era. No idea.

Nick VinZant 1:16:44

No idea, bro. Okay, well, Jake Lloyd.

John Shull 1:16:49

Jake Lloyd.

Nick VinZant 1:16:50

34 now? Oh, yeah, he probably looks like he had to change his name. He had to disappear off the face of the earth. That's that'd be tough me. Poor kid. He was also in Jingle All the Way. Way. Wait, was he in the? Was he also in the Adam Sandburg Sandler movies? Was that that same kid?

John Shull 1:17:17

Oh, no, no, no. He's the guy they kid from Big Daddy. But that kid is famous. I think now,

Nick VinZant 1:17:22

man. What does Wikipedia do with their? How did they get their photos? It's like the worst photo anyone could ever find of that person. Anybody? Look at look up Jake Lloyd. And this Wikipedia poster. He looks like he looks like a 35 year old working at a gas station. And just hates it. Poor guy. Oh, man. That's

John Shull 1:17:50

poor guy. That's poor guy right there, man.

Nick VinZant 1:17:53

But look how bad all of Wikipedias pictures are for famous people. Like that's the picture you chose.

John Shull 1:18:02

Yeah, I mean, yeah, good for him. He

Nick VinZant 1:18:05

he did not want that photo to be taken. Not happy. Okay, that's your whole honorable mention.

John Shull 1:18:16

That's it. I'm gonna get my Pod Racer and get out of here.

Nick VinZant 1:18:19

Would you drive it? Would you have a Pod Racer? If you could? Like, would you be like, I'll take this Pod Racer.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:23

Absolutely. Yeah. Would take

Nick VinZant 1:18:25

that fundraiser to at least isn't that making a comeback? Those movies aren't that bad. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe. Leave us a quick review. It really helps us out. We really appreciate it and let us know who you think are some of the biggest childhood stars. I really think that just from sheer I can recognize that person is probably Daniel Radcliffe. But Macaulay Culkin is right there. But let us know who you think should be in the top five

Superhero Researcher Dr. Gabriel Cruz

Whether they're symbols of hope, sexual liberation, urban decay or violence, Dr. Gabriele Cruz says superheroes play a larger than life role in our lives. We talk the hidden meanings behind your favorite superheroes, what Batman really stands for and the most controversial/influential superheroes of all time. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Best Food You Put in a Bowl.

Dr. Gabriel Cruz: 01: 20

Pointless: 41:13

Top 5 Foods in a Bowl: 01:04:33

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 Dr. Gabriel Cruz Podcast - Office Hours with Dr. C

Dr. Gabriel Cruz Dissertation

Interview with Superhero Researcher Dr. Gabriel Cruz

Nick VinZant 0:13

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode superheroes

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 0:19

and food bowls, when we think of like who your favorite superhero is, I promise you whoever you think your favorite superhero is, that is not an accurate representation of the character. Comics are the same thing and the influence of the comics industry would never be the same. Bill Marston thought that women had physiological Oregon's that produced more love than men, and that the salvation of society was going to be through women's empowerment,

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest study superheroes, the hidden ways that they impact our society, and what some heroes really stand for. This is superhero researcher, Professor Gabriel Cruz. So what is it about superheroes? What is it about it that speaks to us?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 1:24

That's a good question. And it's not an easy answer. The easy surface level answer is like, well, it's a way of playing with the fantastic, right. But it's a bit more to it than that superheroes have been are a continuation in some sense of the ways in which we tell stories, dealing with the fantastic whether that's have to do with the divine or whatever conceptualization that is, from a Abrahamic perspective, or a perhaps Buddhist or Hindu, we're bringing value any of those things, we always like this sort of beyond the human kind of stuff, right? But it's also about dealing with aspects of our own selves. In many ways. I like to say that superheroes are modern iterations of the future that have that are grappling with the past. And that is a way of sort of chewing on what's going on in the world, dealing with our anxieties and our fears, and hopefully having some degree of optimism, at least in modern superheroes, I say modern being like, you know, the last several decades.

Nick VinZant 2:19

Is it always a deeper metaphor for something or is sometimes like, Hey, man, it's just the Hulk, just the Hulk.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 2:28

It is what you get out of it. It's always one of those things where people are like, Oh, it's not that deep, right? It's not if you don't want it to be. But like, a colleague of mine, a friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Julian Chambliss up at Michigan State University, who is a historian who studies comics as historical artifacts points out like they are moments in time, right? They are bound up by things. And so yeah, some of them are just the Hulk smashing through Brooklyn and things like that, as he does a Godzilla style fight with another creature. Right. And sometimes it's, you know, the 1974, comic arc of secret empire with Captain America where prisoners were president, Richard Nixon kills himself, right? Like, some things don't get to just be surface level. But there's always more if you want there to be.

Nick VinZant 3:14

But it's just one of those things where the author writes it with those intentions, or we kind of create those intentions afterwards.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 3:22

Well, it depends on who you are. Which it's almost like asking the lawyers like the answer is always It depends. No. So like, in my field, we don't care about the author. The author is nice, the author created the work, right, but we engage in what's often referred to as the death of the author, where the intention doesn't matter. It's about how it lands. Right. So for example, in game, right, you have that scene where the the the heroes of Earth are fighting Thanos and his invading army and you have Captain America, you know, with the broken shield wielding the old near right, because he is worthy. Because if anyone's worthy, it's a white dude from 1940s. Right? And doing wrong I love cat but it is what it is. And he's wielding millionaire, Thor's hammer against an A wave of non white monstrous bodies, right, which is a time tested trope going back to like the cowboys and Indians western genre, or any of these sort of like imperialist colonialist propaganda that was put out in like the 18th and 19th centuries of these lone white European heroes fighting these faceless hordes of, again, non white bodies. Was it intended that way? No. And in the moment, I was totally engrossed in like, Man, this is super cool. And then there's a part of my brain that's going man the Nazis are gonna love this. Right. And so like that's, that's a part of the complexity did that is that what the Russo brothers meant? I'm very sure they did not, but it matters how it lands, not what the author intended.

Nick VinZant 4:55

But like for me, I would not think that right like I wouldn't think think that, but at the same time, I'm a white guy from Kansas, you know? So does that. Is there any kind of reading into something where maybe there isn't something really there? Or is it the other way is like no, something's there, you're just not noticing it.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 5:17

The problem is whether or not something is there is a matter of the construct of like your own brain and disposition. So for example, Did you ever watch The watchmen movie? Yes, yeah, yeah. So whether you watch the movie, or this is also the case with like the comic book to some extent. They're not counting the series on HBO that came out a little while ago, there was this this thing where like, young men thought that Rorschach was a hero, right? Where the so Rorschach was wearing the facemask with the with the Rorschach test, it's flooding out of inkblots, whatever, like where he comes across as sympathetic or a hero. And this happens all the time with heroes, or anti heroes that are meant to be satirical, or meant to point out that this is not positive that there's no negative things here. And so they find some degree of emotional resonance. In a case like Rorschach, it's because the backstory of poverty and suffering and also like a moral absolutism that is very comforting to particularly folks who are growing up, you know, having to deal with the complexity of complexities of society, like, yeah, that finds a degree of resonance. So when we say like, Well, I wouldn't say that, that's totally fair. That's a reasonable interpretation. At the same time, all of these texts are what we call polysemic. Which means that they're open to multiple interpretations that may at times be contradictory, right. And that's the weirdness of media. And that's part of the beauty and also the, I'll say tragedy, but like, the unfortunate side of superhero comics, because they get to be reiterated over and over and over again. And when we think of like, who your favorite superhero is, I promise you, whoever you think your favorite superhero is, that is not an accurate representation of the character. Especially they've been around for more than a decade, because there's been so many different versions of them, right? newer ones, obviously, if there's only a few issues to go off of, then you get a much smaller data size to extrapolate your own image of them from but like, I don't know, a Wonder Woman, right? or Batman or Robin, whichever Robin, you're talking about, all of which have had, like, most of them have had, you know, multi decade, publication histories. Diverse version you have in your brain is picking and choosing based off of what you've read what you've had access to, and also what you bring to the table, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 7:33

The first one that I think about in that regard is like Batman, who went from kind of campy jokey to serious to really dark to kind of like businessman like, and it just depends on how you interpreted at that time. Is that how that usually kind of works?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 7:48

Usually, yeah, it's the it's the generation right that you grew up in. It's like, how old were you? If you were 10 years old, and you saw like Batman and Robin or Batman Forever, then yeah, that's the version of Batman that like probably jives with you more. But it's also worth noting that Batman in his very first iteration was dark, and killed people. Not often, but it did happen from time to time. And then and I'm talking like in the less than a year old runs of Batman, right, like circa 1939, kind of stuff. And then you introduce Robin, and he softens a lot and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, so it depends on what area you grew up with. It's like, you know, Saturday Night Live. Yeah, whatever. Whatever version you grew up with, the version you grew up with, is the one you think is the best.

Nick VinZant 8:30

So obviously, you know, superheroes are very popular, you can't seems like a new movie comes out every week or every month. But do they mean more to us now than they have in the past?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 8:42

It fluctuates, it comes and goes. So for example, okay, if we trace like the first superhero comic, not comic book, but the first superhero comic to Superman, right, so that's 1938. Right? And he's wildly popular, mildly successful, and so is Batman. And so it was Wonder Woman, all those other like Golden Age heroes up until about the 1950s, when we see the dramatic drop off, because of anxieties surrounding them. There's a reason that comic books were intensely popular during the Depression. And in the years afterwards, right? It was a way for people to escape a little bit and to really grapple onto something. But over time, that changes in the 50s, you had a huge scare that they were part of the moral degradation of the youth, in particular, because Wonder Woman was setting an example for how women should not be according to these sort of dominant social norms at the time. Good news, great bill Marston. His name escapes me from Bill Marston who wrote Wonder Woman wrote Wonder Woman to be socially and in particular, sexually subversive at the time. And so when people were sort of reading, reading into that stuff, like the public pressure made the decline and so from the 50s into the 60s, you see, a precipitous drop in the number of titles that are being printed in the circulation. About like stuff. And then they boom, again, right into like the 60s and what we call the Silver Age, which is where, like Atlas comics becomes Marvel Comics, with the creation of Iron Man and Thor and all them. And they're hugely popular again, but they're popular among young people. Again, right? They, they've always been for all audiences, but they post like the 60s they tend to be more resonant with with young folks. And then they go up and they go down in the 90s. Like, the reason that we have spider man being made by Sony, and the X Men being made by Fox and the MCU in its current iteration, starting back in 2008, was because Marvel sold off their properties because they were going under, right, they hadn't made money. So again, it comes and goes,

Nick VinZant 10:45

was there ever a time that you would say that this was the peak, the peak of not the peak of their popularity, but their peak of their influence in society?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 10:53

Oh, the peak of the influence was probably pre 1954. Because the Comics Code Authority, which was a reaction to congressional hearings, that were concerned about the negative influence of comics, so you had horror comics, you had, you know, a lot of violence in comics, you had a lot of, you know, sexuality and stuff that was transgressive, and comics, in addition to the superhero comics, all this sort of stuff happening in the same like, time and in conversation with each other as these artists would bounce around from company to company and pick up freelance work, and that kind of stuff. You know, as early as, like the 1940s, you had national newspapers calling comics, a disgrace to our society. And then in the 50s, you know, this sort of ramps up and builds up over time 1954, you have Frederic Wertham seduction of the innocent, which is basically a very damning indictment of the comics industry. Admittedly, he was, he was a I think, was a psychologist who was reading a lot into the comics, and at the time, overplaying their influence. But he was doing it all the same. And so he Seduction of the Innocent was kind of like the tipping point. And so you have these congressional hearings that lead to what's called the Comics Code Authority, right, which was invented in 1954. the Comics Code Authority was the industry's way of self regulating. So they said, Look, you guys don't regulate us, like federally and will regulate ourselves sort in the same way that like the MPAA, right, the the motion picture. Association, and whatever the second A is kind of like how they did with like the the PG the G rated R stuff, right? As a way of self regulation. So comics did the same thing. And you saw a drop in like, there were some 650 Plus comics, titles, in circulation in or 650 publications in 1954. By 36, that drops to about 300 names. And the influence of the comics industry would never be the same up until maybe, arguably, you know, the early 2000s with the MCU, and later the DC you and stuff and things like that,

Nick VinZant 13:02

do you think it's dropped off? Or do you think that this people just aren't paying attention to the movies anymore? As much as they did a couple of years ago,

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 13:09

I think that the novelty has worn off, right? So depending on when you trace the beginnings of this, a case can be made the the X Men, the Bryan Singer excellent movies in 2000, were the start of kind of where we are in our current landscape with with superheroes, although I would point out that I argue that and I'm not alone in this. There's some others who argue that like blade was kind of the proof of concept, right? In the 90s. Because I mean, how cool was that? Right? Great

Nick VinZant 13:38

movie. It's such an underrated movie that it's my blade was awesome.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 13:42

It legitimately was and the other two were bad. Not as good, but at least my opinion, but they weren't bad. Yeah, I would, I would suggest that was like the proof of concept of superhero movies that got away from the Superman Batman movies that we'd had for decades up until that point. But if you trace even if you go like to the 2000s, right, as the start of our current wave of superhero films, if this is like the western genre, then we're halfway through because the Westerns lasted about 40 years in popularity, right. And so we might be about halfway through and that means we're probably due for some waiting, which I think is part of why Disney has said that they they're going to slow down the release of their of their properties and stuff because like I think they're concerned about over inundating people especially after like the the conclusion of endgame

Nick VinZant 14:31

I know we you know, a lot of the things that I was going to we're going to talk about kind of fit in some of our listeners submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Ready is I'm going to be most influential superhero of all time and influential, influential in the sense that like, a broader impact on society,

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 14:51

there is no one answer in my humble opinion. However, there are some top contenders will say, okay, Superman night In 38, we, you know, is the first, like declared superhero bearing in mind, we've been playing with those themes for a while, but he's like the first Super superhero prior to that you have, like pulp heroes like Doc Savage, or the Phantom or, you know, John Carter from Mars, right. And he, it's hard to overestimate or to overstate his significance. That being said, I would also put in that similar category, characters like Wonder Woman, who was dealing with a lot of interesting things, again, sexually subversive at the time, the lasso was meant to be a combination of the truth to detect the lie detector, right. The last one truth was a lie detector test, which Bill Martian was involved in the creation of was also aspect of sexual bondage and the flipping of gender roles and dynamics, which Bill Martian was a huge advocate for, right, although he had some unfortunate like, biologically reductive perceptions on that all the same, that's the kind of idea that was there. So that was a huge thing. I would also put in will Eisenerz the spirit because everyone if you like reading comics, if you like people who create comics, it is almost a shadow of a doubt they have like read Will Eisner because he was so foundational and so influential. And the spirit was a sort of detective kind of story, sort of, sort of like proto Batman a little bit. Who, who his his public persona, his civilian identity died. And so he became the spirit as a vigilante and all that kind of stuff. And so we see a lot of those are a tropes, he comes about 1940 And then you have like your Captain America's and folks like that, who are continuing on these. So I would say in that early group, but also if you want a more modern answer, Spider Man, it is hard to overstate the value of spider man there's a reason his face is has been on. Like the majority of Marvel comics since the 60s. It's because he's one of the best selling and therefore highly circulated and pop culturally known superheroes.

Nick VinZant 16:58

He's the most like a real person, right? Like he was an average guy.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 17:02

Yeah, in many ways, Peter Parker couldn't catch a break. Right? And even more so because legacies are such a big deal in superhero narratives right of who takes on the mantle next, all that kind of stuff. He has spawned some really successful mantle some really successful legacies like Miles Morales, like Miguel O'Hara, like Jessica Drew, like, it just the list goes on.

Nick VinZant 17:23

Is there a one that you would say is like the most influential in a bad way, in the sense that maybe they were co opted by this group or that group and kind of became like, a negative symbol?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 17:33

I'm starting to wonder if maybe your fans been looking at my CV because I just had a, an article come out that I co authored with Dr. Lindsay Kramer, about the Punisher and the Punisher logo. So they're like any, any, any idiot can take an image and then repurpose it right. And we see these sort of like reinterpretations of characters. It's not hard to find like, you know, white nationalist propaganda that uses you know, maybe like Captain America or hydro or something along those lines. But the Punisher phenomenon of the logo used by law enforcement and by people who are in support of law enforcement has since like, guys like 2014 2012, somewhere in there has been unreal. And actually, in our article that Dr. Kramer and I have published I think it's called a pleasurable marginality. I want to say, it's in the Howard journal communication, but we argue that like he legitimizes unintentionally, but he does legitimize a certain feeling felt among a particular demographic that is to say, you know, working class, white American males, particularly younger men, but you know, that sort of demographic by validating their conspiratorial ideas, right. And he has often been this image of like, when the law fails, this is what you do. And he is a variation of the Western cowboy trope, right of like, there is no law, but the man with the gun kind of thing. And so I find the Punisher stories really compelling. I enjoy them a lot. But also, I always like to tell folks like it's okay to like Frank Castle, if you understand Frank Castle doesn't like Frank Castle, right? There's a there's a comic where Captain America just, you know, beat him black and blue. And he did not fight back because it was Captain America. And also because on some level, the Punisher knows like he has it coming. Right. But that gets lost on the folks who have the thin blue line, Punisher logo, right and supported the plays or who are police themselves, which is a real concern.

Nick VinZant 19:34

Did publishers know this? The publishers kind of know this and buy into it like, Hey, we're really picking up some traction amongst angry teens. Oh, yes. Go ahead and push this forward.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 19:45

Oh, yeah. One of the CO creators of the Punisher because the Punisher was meant to be an indictment of the legal system. Right. That's the whole thing. Right. His family has killed because of the criminal element in New York City that is also working in conjunction with law enforcement. And the Punisher is therefore, as Archie Goodwin put it in an editorial note, in the one of the early puncher comics, he says the Punisher is a problem that is worth the Punisher is a solution that is worse than the problem that created them. Right? That's the whole ethos behind the character. But Jerry Conway, who co created the Punisher back in the in the 70s 60s 70s. said recently, when he saw that there were people protesting against Black Lives Matter by wearing the Punisher logo and the whole Blue Lives thing, said, like, you guys got it wrong. The Punisher doesn't support law enforcement. He's not that kind of guy. You don't need to stop doing and actually he did a fundraiser where he sold shirts in support of Black Lives Matter of where the logos were people, artists putting their own spin on the Punisher logo to sort of reclaim that contested symbol. To what extent it's effective, I guess, is anyone's guess we'll see what happens down the line. But one point, you know, like, there's a punisher comic, when I'm talking like circa 2018 2019, maybe in 2020, where Frank Castle confronts two officers who have the Punisher logo, like on their shirts. And he like he rips up the logo there. No, he takes it off of the cars, whereas he takes a decal off the car, and he rips it up. And he says, Look, if you are a role model, you look a Captain America, I do what I do, you don't do that. And if you do that, I'll put a bullet in you. Right. So yeah, they absolutely know, on some level these kinds of discourses, what do

Nick VinZant 21:30

you think about when they do it? And also the public's reaction to it, when this character who was a man is now a woman, or this character who was white is now Hispanic or black or something like that?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 21:42

I'll go first to the public reaction, because the why they do that it's a little complicated the public reaction of like, well, this is clearly some kind of agenda. My more cynical responses will Yeah, it all is, like, no one's writing these things, just for the art, the artists are doing it, but also because it clears a check, right? And this stuff is inherently persuasive. If for no other reason than to get you to buy more. So that is foundational to this industry, right? Like it is any other mass media, you know, art based industry. I love the MCU we had three white guys named Chris, lead it for a while, right? So so when people say like, well, they're putting politics in politics, the politics have always been there. Captain America debuted, like, there was published issue number one, like six months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. And it's him punching Hitler. Right. Jack Kirby, on least one occasion is has been was known to try to throw down anyway with some Nazis. While he was a civilian in the United States, right? They were about not even counting his time serving overseas. So that's the thing is I think there's a lack of awareness, a lack of consciousness when it comes to like the political things that have always been integral to this and then you hit a point where you're like, oh, there are politics here. Why are they putting politics in my comments? Nah, bro, it's been there from the beginning. Right. And the other thing is as to why they do that, why they you know, change the gender or they change the sex where they change the race or ethnicity or anything. Comics has a long and often unfortunate history with attempting to introduce characters of color or characters that are not masculine, not men. And so the one that comes to mind is like external angel who was I think, a either a Marvel or DC character but external Neo was kind of like think Dr. Strange but from Latin America, and also it was the 80s and he was gay and had HIV.

Nick VinZant 23:32

That's a lot that's a lot like Right, like, man, you went, you went the whole thing.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 23:40

The the White Tiger superhero, Hector Ayala was Puerto Rican, and did one of the things that rarely happens in comics anymore. And that is he died permanently running from the police. Right? He fled a trial where he thought he would where it looked like he was going to lose and have to go to prison wrongly. He runs he gets shot by the police and he's dead dead. Right? And that's not a thing that typically happens. And they're trying to comment on what goes on with like law enforcement and people of color and in particular Latinos. And it's just like, they ended up breaking one of the cardinal rules at the same time, right? So like, there's this huge checkered past I love Captain America comics but like one of the early stories written by things like Jack Kirby and and no, it wasn't it wasn't Stanley because he wasn't around yet. But like, yeah, by Jack Kirby was that it was a story basically of Captain America helping the good Native Americans fight the bad Native Americans were the bad ones were opposed to the American military. Right? Yeah, that's

Nick VinZant 24:43

the kind of thing we're like, oh, shit, you can't do that now. Right? Like yeah, realize that the problems that are there, you know,

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 24:49

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So there's always the thing of like, people say, Well, why don't you create your own comics? Well, people have been forever. It's worth noting that most of the foundational heroes was in superhero comics were created by Jewish folks, immigrants and people of color. Right? So like those, but what you can put actually on the page, and what will sell usually looks like a Clark Kent, right or Steve Rogers. So they were coming from these communities already. It's just that like they had to look a certain way in order to be marketable. And there's always been efforts to create new characters, milestone comics, right, that gave us like static shock, or icon. Or I think about like the the different iterations of black lightning from DC, you know, going back to the 70s. Like, these were original characters, but there's always been going back to the issue of like, they fluctuate in popularity, they fluctuate in terms of how successful these businesses are, like, they'll do well, and like booming times, but when they hit a slump, those are comics that you know, like, get let go. So, so yeah, so they they bend some stuff they pass on like, oh, geez, there was Jane Foster, who was Thor, not lady Thor, she was Thor, right in the comics, and that we saw a little bit in the movies as well, or right now Captain America is not Steve Rogers, it is Sam Wilson. And these are the natural progression of things. And it's frustrating, because if it were if Steve Rogers passed it on to another white dude, what people didn't think twice about it, but because there's a black character, it, you know, it becomes controversial among particular segments. I don't want to make it sound like all nerds have this opinion. But you know, it's that kind of thing.

Nick VinZant 26:28

The one thing that like, this is my question is like, Are there superheroes from other countries? Right, like, how can we never hear about Captain India or Captain Brazil right? Or? Or is this just dominated by America?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 26:41

It is an American art form. And so we've kind of cornered the market, but we're by no means I mean, Britain has put out has put out comics, certainly, and actually two of the greatest comics writers, Neil Gaiman and Alan, oh my gosh, more. Why is it? Alan Moore? I was thinking the one that looks like a wizard. That guy. Yeah. Alan Moore, right. Are no titans in the industry, even though they don't write that frequently anymore? And in case in worst case, hardly at all. So yeah, I mean, there are characters from other other parts of the world. India, I've seen some interesting comments from them, particularly dealing with like social issues, like sexual violence and stuff like that. There's, oh, there's some great, you know, Latin American comics. So yeah, there's, you know, there's a lot of neat stuff happening. But it is an American art form that has been dominated by the United States and to some extent, Canada.

Nick VinZant 27:37

most controversial comic storyline of all time.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 27:41

I go back to the 1974 issue, like run of secret empire, where Captain America watches Nixon, shoot himself in the Oval Office. I have a hard time beating that. Although there certainly out

Nick VinZant 27:54

there, like how does that get through? Right?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 27:56

Right. They never say it's Nixon, Steve Rogers runs to the president's office sees number one, right in the secret empire, hierarchy. Encounters number one, and then he blows. Like he, like you hear the bank as he reacts in horror to whoever this is cleans up, but who is going to be number one, in this hierarchy? And also in the Oval Office? It's obviously Nixon. So I have a hard time getting past that. But I mean, you know, take your pick, goodness gracious, there was a story where Carol Danvers, right, Captain Marvel, she was she ran away to another dimension with an alien. And this is like circa 1980s, I want to say, she ran away to another dimension with an alien who, like she fell in love with, and then like, has his child and then you like, she comes back. And you find out that she was brain controlled by this alien. Like he literally psychologically dominated her, convinced her to go to his home dimension, where he impregnated her, and then she gives birth to basically an avatar of him so that he can be reborn with even better powers. And like, and, and that's Yeah, yeah. And then and then. And then the other heroes are like, how could we have known? What do you mean? Like, they kind of blame her a little bit for everything that happened. It's kind of nuts. So the X Men stuff. I mean, if you want to talk about controversial when they made Magneto into a Holocaust survivor, I would suggest that was controversial in a positive way. Because he wasn't originally, he wasn't originally a Holocaust survivor. That wouldn't happen until the Chris Claremont run in the 19 1980s. I believe. So yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of wild controversies that happen. It's just a matter of what you think. But again, I go back to Nixon shooting himself in the Oval Office.

Nick VinZant 29:44

Yeah, the President, the President taking himself out it's going to be pretty high up

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 29:48

there, the sitting president at the time filming himself

Nick VinZant 29:52

so one of the things that we kind of got asked was a couple of these kinds of questions. If I give you like the name of a superhero Can you gotta give me like what their cultural significance is sure, yeah, I got you start with the easy one, right Superman,

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 30:06

Superman. Jewish Diaspora Moses parallel, faked his death to be thrown into a mass grave when Metropolis was invaded by not quite Nazis kind of thing. I mean, he's always been a commentary on that sort of stuff. He was also a critique of city living, there was a lot of concerns in society about the agricultural versus the urban divide, and that if you go to cities, then you will be corrupted and you know, live this life advice and all that kind of stuff and what could save them but a farm boy from Kansas, right? Also, his earliest superheroes, his earliest villains, excuse me, were like slum lords and abusive husbands and, you know, violent youth. And so he was absolutely addressing like the the social anxieties at the time, Batman, Batman was a gritty hero for a gritty environment again, going back to like the urban issue of like, you know, the sort of anxieties around what happens when you move to the city and there's more crime and all that kind of stuff. And Batman was that plus some degree of like redeeming value, because he had because he had a the boy award, right, a disgrace. And so you had that sensitivity alongside this character who, at least on one or two occasions, murdered or accidentally killed a villain and just shrugged it off. It's like, man, it's a shame, and then kept on going, right. So like, you have that dichotomy existing there. Not to mention, again, created by, by Jewish creators, so there's some of that stuff tied in there to,

Nick VinZant 31:37

um, Black Panther.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 31:40

Black Panther Afrofuturism, invented by white guys. Like Black Panther is a great example of how progress is a state is a series of problematic steps forward, right, because he absolutely was deeply entrenched in what we might refer to as the Dark Continent stereotypes and tropes, things like blackness being associated with a certain permittivity because while he was a master scientist to chala, was also this sort of pseudo tribal Savage in the way that he enacted his superhero persona, right with the Panther. There's a lot of like coded racism in terms of like, I think it was like jungle adventures and things like that was or jungle comics. Being the title that he operated under for a long time. He was also a trope of like, being the most intelligent, right? he outsmarts, the Fantastic Four in his initial debut, where he finds out like, he's not actually a villain, although he's kind of presented that way. Interestingly enough, and this is a great example of how Marvel has really sort of had a weird issue with civil rights. Black Panther, is, I think, published the year that the Black Panther Party for self defense declares itself. And once they become popular a few months after the initial creation of Black Panther, Marvel, like Cannes, Black Panther shot sidelines for a while, and for a little bit, reintroduces him under the name of the black leopard in order to have some distance, right. And then later, people are like, well, that's lame. And then so that only lasts like a few issues, and then it reverts back to the Black Panther. So yeah, but because we get those early iterations that are rooted in like a lot of unfortunate stereotypes about blackness and African identity. We get, you know, the movies that we have now.

Nick VinZant 33:21

Do the villains generally symbolize something? Are they just villains?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 33:25

Oh, yeah, no, they're always something I mean, to the degree to which that we choose to interpret them that way. But also, like I mentioned at the beginning, some of Superman's earliest villains were, you know, corrupt business owners, right. Same thing Captain America, the earliest Nazis that he was fighting were American Nazi sympathizers. Who there was one that was like a defense contractor, right, that was corrupt and working for the Third Reich. And that's Captain America, American fights, but going back to Superman, you know, yeah, he's fighting, you know, corrupt business owners, and then one who is his like defining villain, Lex Luthor, who is a businessman, right? So like, those sort of things are absolutely there. There's argument you can make that someone like Batman, his characters are different aspects of a particular persona. So like the sexuality or the wealth of Batman and embodied in like poison ivy, or the Penguin or his chaotic relationship with the law, as being reflected in the Joker and things like that that case can be made. But yeah, they they typically a good villain, I think represents something. It's not just a throwaway. Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman. So we have feminist empowerment is as envisioned by a man at the time, if you notice, there's a lot of recurring themes up. It's this group's empowerment but conceptualized by someone else, by someone

Nick VinZant 34:40

who knows nothing about it. Right. Right. Yeah, right.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 34:44

Bill Marston thought that women had physiological organs that produced more love than men, and that the salvation of society was going to be through women's empowerment. This is not true in a biological sense, but his idea of like, yeah, we Need women to be empowered? And so we can have a better society? Like that holds water? Sure, yes. The physiological bit, maybe not so much. But like, it's important to note that in her early comics, and consistently throughout her comics, like Wonder Woman has often tried to save her villains. Right? She doesn't just throw them into the Dark Pit of Arkham Asylum and then throw away the key. Like she's trying to use the lasso truth to get them to confront themselves in many instances. Right. So

Nick VinZant 35:26

is there an any other ones that you think like really jump out as kind of symbolizing something broader?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 35:31

Oh, yeah, sure. Um, Luke Cage is a great one. So he's another character who has had a checkered history over time. He was initially created by Archie Goodwin and a couple others. Steve Englehart who wrote Luke Cage early on, he didn't co create them. But he was one of the early writers said that, um, basically Marvel, as he puts it, wanted some of that civil rights money. And so they charged a bunch of white guys to create a black superhero. And that's how you get Luke Cage who was very stereotypical at the time. But And interestingly enough, in his first issue, actively refuses to take part in a prison protests, right? Because like they're going on a on a strike, the prisoners are going on, like a hunger strike to, like protest the cruel conditions. So they're touching on the this is like circa 1972, I would say. So they're touching on like, the terrible prison conditions at the time, and the fact that this disproportionately affects black men. But Luke Cage goes out of his way to say, No, I'm not taking part of this. I'm not getting any more days added on to my punishment, I'm not catching any heat for anybody else. Right. So he's not down with civil rights at the moment, right, not in that capacity. And so he's an interesting negotiation to becoming one of these like street level heroes who is community based, right. And whenever there's always this recurring conversation, I think, Eric crypkey, the showrunner has made this argument that superheroes are inherently like fascist. And I can see the appeal of a single savior, often a white male Savior, who is willing to like redeem society. But I would also point out the characters like Luke Cage, and there's a bunch of others that are street levels. Heroes are also community advocates, right? Who are championing of people who are left behind by a broken social contract. And so characters like that, or black lightning, or Miles Morales, or Daredevil, for that matter, like these characters speak to needs, they're not being addressed.

Nick VinZant 37:20

That's pretty much all the questions we got. Is there anything that you think we missed was kind of coming up next for you? I know you got a podcast as well.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 37:28

Yeah, I have a I have a podcast that office hours for Dr. C, where we talk about a bunch of stuff related to pop media, not just superheroes, but you know, other stuff as well, although, because of the ongoing strikes are trying to refrain from talking about like struck materials and things like that, but you know, we're still making making stuff. But um, yeah, so I also do stuff on tick tock on Twitter and Instagram. You know, Jay Cruz underscore PhD because not only am I in a tenure track job, where I have to publish and teach a bunch, but I also need other things to do to keep my brain going, which is not at all true. That's a lie. I don't need more things. But I can't stop. Um, so yeah. So if anyone wants to, you know, find that kind of stuff they can. And I'm always open to emails, if anyone wants to, you know, ask questions, but my dissertation is online. It's bad writing. But it's a done thing. If no one knows what a dissertation is. It's basically a book your rights, you can get a PhD and it's terrible, abysmal writing, but it like, has some stuff about race class and gender analysis, and superheroes, which is my primary area of research. So yeah, that's, you just go to Ohio Link and look for Gabriel Cruz dissertation superheroes, and you'll find it so anyway, I don't know. Trying to give anything else that came to mind the boys is good. I liked the boy.

Nick VinZant 38:45

I do like the boys. I like invincible too.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 38:50

I like invincible, especially because of what they do with the violence. Because yeah,

Nick VinZant 38:55

it's realistic, right? It's very

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 38:57

uncomfortable. And I like that they take this approach of like, this is what you want. Let's turn it up to 11 and see how you feel about it kind of approach like that. That's yeah. But most superhero media I try to consume or stay up to date on although I am severely lacking in DC, because even I have my limits.

Nick VinZant 39:20

What are they do and over there?

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 39:21

I I didn't watch blackout them until I had to sit six hours for a tattoo and it happened to be on. So

Nick VinZant 39:29

it's amazing how sometimes you can take like the same combination of things. And sometimes it's a cake and sometimes it's a piece of shit.

Dr. Gabriele Cruz 39:36

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's the rock with superpowers. Right. So and which is most movies he's in on some level. So it kind of is what it is. Yeah. So now, I think here's what I'd say as just kind of a parting thought for anyone who's interested in superheroes in that kind of stuff. First of all, bear in mind there are so many great comic books and graphic novels outside of superheroes. Superheroes are great, but they're not the same. In total of everything, they're actually very, like a reasonably small percentage of the overall industry, but also, like, it is okay to read into them, it is okay to critique them. And it's okay to still like them at the same time, right? So you'll find problematic stuff, and almost all of these things. But that doesn't mean you can't find enjoyment in it as well. You know, I liked Falcon in the Winter Soldier. And you know, that mini series, but it had some real problems when it came to critiques of the government and issues of race. But at the same time, I thought it did some neat stuff. So you know, these things are, they're complex.

Nick VinZant 40:34

I want to thank Professor crews so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. His podcast is fascinating. If you really want to learn more about the impact of different things in media, checking out his podcast office hours is is worth your time. And the YouTube version of this interview will be live on September 14, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

John Shull 41:23

I mean, that's a tough one. I mean, flying would be great.

Nick VinZant 41:25

Flying seems like it would be awesome. But I think that there's other powers that you can take like more advantage of.

John Shull 41:32

I mean, teleporting would probably be it because it would, how great would it be to go, Listen, I want to go to Bangladesh. And you're right there,

Nick VinZant 41:40

that would be awesome. But I don't know how that would work. Right? Like, would you just look at it on a map? Or would you just have to do a series of teleports? Because otherwise, how would you know that you're not like teleporting into the middle of a building?

John Shull 41:52

guy that would be wouldn't that be terrible? Just I'm gonna teleport to Miami Beach and you go to a building in downtown Detroit on the 13th floor or something?

Nick VinZant 42:02

That would be the problem, right? I think a lot of superpowers sound like they would be cool in real life. But then if you think about it, I don't think a lot of them would work out. Like if you actually had super strength. I mean, you just be tearing your house apart. Because every time you went to open the door, you'd like rip it off. And none of your friends would have arms.

John Shull 42:25

I mean, it's super strength would be great. But yeah, like you said, I don't know if it's practical, which I knew there's teleporting. However,

Nick VinZant 42:32

really the most practical one, the best one to be able to read people's minds. Like that would be the best one in a real life situation would be able to mind read, because you could tell what people really think. And you could get like business secrets, all that kind of stuff. You could take a lot of advantage of that.

John Shull 42:48

Yeah, I'm not sure I the thing is, I get what you're saying. But I don't I don't think I'd want to read people's minds, or have the ability because I don't really want to know what they're thinking.

Nick VinZant 42:57

I don't know if you really want to know what people are really thinking either. It's probably not the best, right?

John Shull 43:04

No, I actually think it's probably 96% Negative.

Nick VinZant 43:08

I think that would be really depressing. Especially if like, right, like if you could really know what people thought that would probably crush your self confidence. I would go with reading people's minds though. Right? Like maybe my self confidence would be pretty low, because you'd always find out the negative thoughts that people had of you. But you could also probably get pretty rich off of that pretty easily.

John Shull 43:29

I still think I would teleport teleportation sounds fantastic.

Nick VinZant 43:34

Yeah, you could make a lot of money off of teleportation too. Or like if I could have instant John's instant delivery service.

John Shull 43:43

Or like if I could have like, you know, like, be the luckiest man on the face of the earth and win the lottery over and over. Like every time there's a large lottery. I just win it.

Nick VinZant 43:53

That would be cool to like luck as a superpower. Yeah, that would probably be the best superpower like luck. Yeah, that would be luck as a superpower would be the best.

John Shull 44:03

Yeah, it would be. I booked you know, once again, kinda like who was Spider Man's uncle, Uncle Ben's uncle Jerry. Uncle Ben. Regardless. With great responsibility comes great power. great power comes great responsibility.

Nick VinZant 44:20

One of those two. Well, same thing, just different phrasing of it. I think it's with great power comes great responsibility

John Shull 44:26

and underrated movie. I'm gonna put that out there into the podcast universe. I think which one first? Spider Man of the Tobey Maguire series was was kind of underrated. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Nick VinZant 44:41

The only one that's kind of really bad of the Spider Man's I think would be Spider Man three. That would be the only one that was like oh, that was kind of a bad movie. Everything else was pretty good. I honestly

John Shull 44:52

I don't ever remember which one that was that with dakak

Nick VinZant 44:55

No. dakak was number two. Spider Man three was with like 30 Different vent villains I think it had like venom and the Sandman and the Green Goblin, or the Green Goblin son, the Hobgoblin. There was just way too many people involved in that one. But otherwise all Spider Man movies had been pretty good.

John Shull 45:15

You know, I gotta rant for one second. I'm sorry. I had okay, we watched the movie and the family watched the new Little Mermaid movie, The live action version? Yeah, I don't know if I'm a fan of of live action movies. And I'm not sure why I just don't know if like, either either make the movie or the in terms of like, have real actors and all that. Or go, you know, cartoon. I don't know why we have to be in the middle.

Nick VinZant 45:46

I've never really understood I am a big fan of animated movies and would generally almost always want to see the animated movie better, even with something that I'm a big fan of like Star Wars. I think the Star Wars animated stuff is way cooler, because you can do cooler stuff. But there is something interesting about live action. I don't understand. I've never watched any of those Disney movies that they've converted over and never even thought about it for a second. I mean, it's never even thought about it.

John Shull 46:10

It's not. It's not a bad movie. So if you're if you're on the fence to check it out, do it. It's just I don't know. It's weird. And maybe because it's the first one I've seen. Maybe ever. I don't remember it. I don't know. It's weird. I don't know how to describe it.

Nick VinZant 46:25

Wait a minute, but it's live action underwater? Are they actually underwater?

John Shull 46:29

They are but they're not. No, they're not actually underwater. But the movie takes place, obviously, under the sea.

Nick VinZant 46:37

Hmm. Interesting. What did you have a superhero that you wanted to be growing up? Like, I wish I was this superhero?

John Shull 46:44

I did not actually I was I was raised with wrestling and sports. So I didn't really have like the comic book heroes, or someone in that universe that I wanted to be now. If you count wrestlers as superheroes, which I do. No, you do not.

Nick VinZant 47:02

I don't think anyone does.

John Shull 47:04

Nothing. I think through the small debates we made there that

Nick VinZant 47:08

I don't think that there's any debate to be made that a wrestler is a superhero. I don't think that there's any debate in any world ever in any university amongst the multiverse that wrestlers a superhero.

John Shull 47:18

I think there's a very small argument to be made that there's

Nick VinZant 47:22

any argument whatsoever. All right, fine. So what's your su What's your argument then that a wrestler is a superhero?

John Shull 47:29

Well, the characters that they portray on on TV, you know, especially in the cartoon era, the late 80s or the mid 80s, late 80s, called Cogan, you could almost say that he was kind of like a superhero.

Nick VinZant 47:47

No, not in any way.

John Shull 47:49

Prayers, nature, vitamins, kids go to bed early, and you can be as strong as me. I mean, he was ultimate strength.

Nick VinZant 47:56

Yeah, but that was ultimately a massive lie. Right? The part they always leave out about that is eat your prayers, or wait, no, say your prayers, eat your vitamins take massive amounts of steroids. They're lying since children,

John Shull 48:07

this is gonna sound real ignorant. And I get that, but I feel like I have to say it is that you could make a point that the serum that the Hulk uses, it couldn't be steroids. We don't know.

Nick VinZant 48:20

Yeah, but it's like gamma radiation, man. It's not like they're not leaving that part out. I'm going that's the thing that you don't realize as a kid is that all of like, the heroes that you have in real life? It's all kind of bullshit, right? Like they're all fake heroes. Absolutely. She's ironic. The real heroes in life are completely fake. Right.

John Shull 48:41

I think I've said this story before, so I'm gonna make into a 32nd version. But I met Rudy Rudy ruettiger. Like I met the actual Rudy. And I was so excited. I was a junior in college or something. I had admired him for all of his feats, and being five foot four and making the Notre Dame football team and I met him. And he was a complete asshole. Like he was there just to make money. And then obviously, as you get older, you realize that most of those like like you just said, most of those heroes are not actually heroes at all.

Nick VinZant 49:15

No, not really. Anyway. Okay. All right.

John Shull 49:20

Are we ready for some? Shout outs out? Yeah, sure. All right, let's start with a simple one here right off the bat. Jim limber, raucous Sure. I screwed that up royally. Jim limber. rakez Jim, Jim lamber. Rekha said

Nick VinZant 49:39

hyphenated. Is it hyphenated? Or do you throw the middle name in there for no reason?

John Shull 49:43

No, I think that's his last name is number rakez. But

Nick VinZant 49:47

he said hyphenated. No. So it's just one long word that says limber. rakez It's like 42 letters.

John Shull 49:54

Gotta hope we're not getting duped into saying something dumb. I don't think we

Nick VinZant 49:57

are number rakez I don't think so limber. Make It's even if so good kudos for him.

John Shull 50:02

I usually say them out loud at least once, so I know that I'm not getting duped.

Nick VinZant 50:07

So is there a space in his name? Or is it all limber? rakez

John Shull 50:10

It's, it's, it's all limber Acas.

Nick VinZant 50:13

It's like 72 letters. No, it's actually

John Shull 50:15

10 which is not that crazy. It's not that bad and your last name as seven so you're almost there.

Nick VinZant 50:24

It's a pain in the ass to have a longer last name. If I write out my whole legal government name. It's a long thing. Let me see.

John Shull 50:35

And we're gonna take a

Nick VinZant 50:36

quiz. Just keep you just keep going. And I'll tell you how many letters it is at the end of the shoutouts.

John Shull 50:41

All right, moving on Randolph cologne Jr. Rafi l bitch off. Skylar Carter. Peter when Gachi Jeff McCamish James Minnie Terrell graves. Vince Liberto Jose Vasquez in Chris fosh. Appreciate you and, you know, a Knicks still counting so I'm gonna say one more. Rock Zan miles. And how many letters

Nick VinZant 51:12

20 to 22 letters, man, and that's probably nothing to some people. How do you feel about people who have four names?

John Shull 51:22

I mean, I strictly think it's a cultural thing. I mean, some in some cultures, people have like

Nick VinZant 51:29

white people.

John Shull 51:30

Just let's just go straight to wait, wait. That's fair. I mean, I'm, I don't know I'm okay with it. I mean, I've never understood the older I get I've never understood. You know, like, if you're a Christopher, and you go by Chris, why can't you just be a Chris? Why do you have to like put Christopher, on your documents,

Nick VinZant 51:50

because that's your legal name. But like, I'm my legal name is Nicolas, I have to put Nicolas on all legal documents because the government knows me as Nicolas, if you put Nick on there. It's spelled differently. And people are gonna think you're somebody else. Like, generally, if you'd asked for your legal name, you got to write the whole thing, right? Like you're not going to split J.

John Shull 52:13

But what if I did?

Nick VinZant 52:15

Well, then you'd be wronged. And then the IRS would be looking for you. They'd be like, Who the hell is this person?

John Shull 52:21

They're not coming after me.

Nick VinZant 52:22

Now, they probably know. Well, ironically, the IRS comes after people who don't make very much money, so they probably aren't coming. They're not coming after the people that are ripping them off. Or ripping us all out there. Yeah, I generally feel that if you got four full four full names, man, there's going to be there's about a 95% chance we're going to deal with some pretentiousness. Probably a 90% chance there's going to be some douchebaggery

John Shull 52:45

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. All right. Well, that's all you got. I'm I'm bringing back factor fiction.

Nick VinZant 52:55

Okay. And the people were something I thought

John Shull 52:58

I saw a quick message about wanting me to stump you again, so Profoundly Pointless factor fiction. Gonna give Nick a couple of questions. See if he can get these. These right, whether they're true or false. I'll start off we'll start off with a an interesting one here. Kashia and Lucy Liu have claimed to have had sex with a ghost. True or false?

Nick VinZant 53:26

I mean, sex with a ghost. Lucy Liu doesn't seem like she would claim to have sex with a ghost. Wasn't she? Didn't she hosts like a Discovery Channel documentary kind of thing? Or does she have another sister that looked exactly like that? I don't, I'm gonna say false, but only because of Lucy Liu.

John Shull 53:45

It is true, actually. So according to her, Lucy Liu herself, she says And once again, this is a quote, I need to keep saying that some sort of Spirit came down from God, who knows where from and made love to me.

Nick VinZant 54:02

I believe that's called a dream.

John Shull 54:04

That it's a lot of cocaine is what that you imagined

Nick VinZant 54:07

just telling somebody that, right, like, that's one of those things that I think celebrities just make this stuff up for attention, right, like Lucy Liu claimed to have had sex with the ghost. Like what's going to happen? What How did Kashia have sex with a ghost?

John Shull 54:21

Well, there's also a quote by her so I guess I'll read it. She told Ryan Seacrest of all people on his radio show back when he had one. I mean, that's a well, that's a big audience. It's a big audience. That her song supernatural was about her making love to a ghost. I lived in this flophouse. I don't know what that is at rural Canyon and there was some weird energy that lived there. It used to keep me up all night. Wake me up and it progressed into this dark sexual spirit. It scared me but that's the fun part of it.

Nick VinZant 54:55

Can you imagine just sitting there listening to that? Just being like What do you say after somebody tells you that they have said they had sex with a ghost? Like, what was it? Was it good? Like isn't the ghost of spirit and how did it become? Because if I've learned anything from the movie Ghost, it's that it's very difficult for ghosts to become corporal and to be affect the physical world.

John Shull 55:17

I'm actually I'm proud of you that you have seen the movie Ghost.

Nick VinZant 55:23

Yeah, dude, everybody's I don't know if I've actually like watched the whole movie, but I know some of the scenes like I thought it was gonna say Oprah Winfrey, but this will be gold.

John Shull 55:32

Yeah, good. I mean, she was fantastic in that movie. I think we've talked about Patrick Swayze a little bit as well in the past. Not the biggest fan. But you know, he is all right.

Nick VinZant 55:44

I still get confused between Patrick Russell and Kurt Swayze. What's his name? Patrick Swayze and Kurt Russell to me, they're the same person. Jesus, right. It's like that other guy. What is there Jason Bateman and Paul Rudd? Same person. Chris Evans and the other guy. I mean, they were two celebrities. They're exactly alike.

John Shull 56:03

I mean, they really are. Like, kind of interchangeable. I feel like most things in Hollywood most people aside from a couple are interchangeable.

Nick VinZant 56:12

Unless you have sex with ghosts, man. That's the way to keep a career live.

John Shull 56:15

Well, I mean, you were you were wrong.

Nick VinZant 56:19

Well, we all lost that.

John Shull 56:22

This should be an easy one for you. Elvis Presley staying on the celebrity side of things was actually a natural blonde.

Nick VinZant 56:32

Yeah, I think that's true.

John Shull 56:34

It is true. According to some archive that studied him. He started using black shoe polish to darken his hair. Because he thought it made him more handsome. Can you imagine that using shoe polish to color your hair? Like that's a that's a crazy thing.

Nick VinZant 56:53

I mean, it was back in like the 1950s man did they even have like stuff like that? He price probably what he

John Shull 56:58

had I'm not hating on him. I'm I mean, good on him work.

Nick VinZant 57:02

Work for him. Right worked out for the guy.

John Shull 57:06

All right. So this was actually something that I did because I was just doing a lot of research Believe it or not, I I'm surprised by this. So I'm curious to know if you think that this is true or false. Charlie Sheen accidentally accidentally shot his then fiancee Kelly Preston?

Nick VinZant 57:25

Oh, probably. I mean, yeah, that doesn't seem like something's you're gonna make up and he doesn't exactly have a track record of good behavior.

John Shull 57:32

That is true. He shot her in the arm when they were in the bathroom. And apparently, he they were in the bathroom doing something. He was taking off his pants. his revolver fell out of his his pants, fell on the ground, discharged the shot and it went to her arm.

Nick VinZant 57:51

She hit her. I mean, she got hurt. Yeah, she was shot in the arm. I mean, I've been shot in the arm. And I actually didn't get hurt. I because I'm fucking made of steel. And the way we're really far away with a shotgun. But that doesn't

John Shull 58:05

mean all right. Well, this is another one that I didn't care to look at. But now I have to ask you, Harry Styles has four nipples?

Nick VinZant 58:17

Well, sure, a false. I don't. I don't. I don't even want to know when it comes to any kind of celebrity news. Like I don't even want to know.

John Shull 58:26

You have to say it's all about learning on this show and things that

Nick VinZant 58:32

no one cares about Harry Styles has four nipples or not?

John Shull 58:35

Well, it's true. And it's called poly thelia. Which is actually one of the most uncommon types of they call it a body disorder. I don't know if that's what it is. But that you can have and that's basically having four nipples instead of two and four nipples. Seems like a lot of nipples.

Nick VinZant 58:53

That's one too many. That's right. Like if you got three nipples that's like okay, that happens. Once you get to four nipples. That's too many nipples, like Oh, but they're not like full nipples. They're like little things or something like that. Right? Did you have them? Do they still on his body? You haven't removed?

John Shull 59:07

No, they're like under there. kind of imagine like, where the top of his ribcage is where you can kind of start to see his, like six pack in debt.

Nick VinZant 59:17

Now I need to look up Harry Styles for nipples. See, this

John Shull 59:21

is what Right? Correct. You're not the only person right now probably that's doing that.

Nick VinZant 59:26

See, Harry Styles has four nipples.

John Shull 59:30

Saying, Oh, yeah,

Nick VinZant 59:32

but not like really? I mean, you would think that they're just like, a little pimple or something like that. Like, it's not like, I mean, he's still walking around with his shirt off. So it's not like he's too worried about it.

John Shull 59:48

Yeah, I mean, it's they're not terrible.

Nick VinZant 59:51

Yeah, people were like, you wouldn't even notice that. Not really. I mean, you'd have to like be looking like okay, that's a nipple looks More just like a sunspot, right? It's not like he's got cow otters there or something like that.

John Shull 1:00:07

I'm just, I'm just saying I it's a fact it's not like I'm making this up.

Nick VinZant 1:00:13

Would you rather have four nipples or have sex with a ghost?

John Shull 1:00:18

Sex with a ghost?

Nick VinZant 1:00:21

What if it was like a male ghost?

John Shull 1:00:24

I mean, listen, no offense to any of our listeners that are into that thing, but that I would probably go with for nipples.

Nick VinZant 1:00:32

As with that, like, would that count? If you are a straight man, and you had sex with a male ghost? Like there he just you know, are you not? Not? Did he? Did you get your Does that count as not being a virgin anymore if you have sex with a ghost?

John Shull 1:00:50

While we're really talking about this, I think there has to be physical insertion of of a body part into yours. And obviously, if you're a woman and a woman that can just be on the outside, but I feel like there has to be some kind of physical contact of some kind around your private areas

Nick VinZant 1:01:10

where they would have to be to have truly have sex with the ghost.

John Shull 1:01:13

I don't I don't want to talk about this anymore.

Nick VinZant 1:01:18

Like, what are you doing that you're just like, I just fucked a ghost. Why? I

John Shull 1:01:23

mean, well, I mean, once again, if you can't prove it, right, so if anyone wants to ever ask them in an interview, like that's not true. You can't prove it. So you're really just going off there. Yeah. So all right.

Nick VinZant 1:01:37

I don't think most people are going to believe that. Um, are you ready for our top five? I have one more. Oh, okay. Well, there's a lot today. Yeah,

John Shull 1:01:44

I will. I wasn't going to ask this one. But then I was like, you talked about the celebrity thing. So I have an animal one for you. Oh, I like animal and this is about So factor fiction. Male koalas have a large two pronged penis. And a female koala has three vaginas in two uteruses?

Nick VinZant 1:02:05

I'm going to have to say that's true, because that's too many things for you to just make up.

John Shull 1:02:10

It is true. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So obviously the female koala has all that for her pouch. And I'm not entirely sure yet I didn't research why a male koala has a two pronged penis but sounds like it's effective.

Nick VinZant 1:02:23

What do you mean two prong like it goes? Like

John Shull 1:02:26

yeah out. Like make your you know, make, you know make a V with your sign. Yeah, make a peace sign. And that's that's what a koalas penis male penis.

Nick VinZant 1:02:38

I'm not looking into this. Don't

John Shull 1:02:39

please. And if you're Googling it out there, I apologize. Hopefully you're not doing it on a work computer.

Nick VinZant 1:02:45

I don't like looking at gross things. Like if I think something's gonna be gross. I don't want to see it at all.

John Shull 1:02:52

Yeah, I had a co worker of mine actually. It was like, Hey, do you want to see my neighbor like had some pretty? He got his hand with a tree trimmer knew Oh, but she had told me that it wasn't that bad. And when she showed me I'm like, you know, we'll call her we'll call her Laura just may give her a name. And I'm like, Laura, his pinkie finger is half severed. And she's like, Yeah, but he's fine. They reattached it. I'm like, Well, I'm never gonna just randomly look at something that you want to show me ever and

Nick VinZant 1:03:23

you never look at random pictures of things. If anybody's ever like I want to show you something. My answer is generally no. That's for whatever it is. I don't want to see it. That's fair. I want to show you and whatever it is, right a YouTube video an injury an article. I don't look at things that people want to show me that's an that's a policy that I'm going to adopt from now on. I will no longer look at anything that anyone wants to show me the koalas penis. Maybe don't want to see it hairstyles fourth nipples don't want to see it. I don't even want to see Lucy Liu having sex with a ghost. If there was video of it, I'd be like No, I don't want to watch that.

John Shull 1:03:59

Maybe I didn't Google to see if there was video but maybe

Nick VinZant 1:04:02

do you think that would be like the top of like one of the websites? Yes like yeah, by far I think that would be number one Lucy Liu with a ghost I haven't done

John Shull 1:04:13

this Believe it or not, but I bet you if you go to the most watched videos on those certain websites, I would I would say three out of five are probably some kind of celebrity induced something

Nick VinZant 1:04:28

Have you ever been into that? Oh, I mean, I look at other stuff but I was not looking at that. Okay, you ready for our top five? I am. So our top five is top five foods that come in a bowl top five foods and let's say it late weight has to be free. I don't know if we should go from Lucy Liu go sex to coming in a bowl. It's been done. Top five foods that are in a bowl. What's your number five.

John Shull 1:04:56

So this was Did you have trouble with this list? Because there are no Not at all. There are lots of options.

Nick VinZant 1:05:02

There are but there's not a lot of good ones. Well, there's a lot of good ones. But there's there's the dominant ones at the top. Right. I thought about it for a while. There's a lot of foods that come in a bowl, but ultimately, this was a pretty easy list for me.

John Shull 1:05:15

All right, well, my number five, I'm going to put popcorn.

Nick VinZant 1:05:20

You don't have to have pop.

John Shull 1:05:23

Nobody eats it out of the bag. Nobody does.

Nick VinZant 1:05:27

Well, I mean, I do.

John Shull 1:05:29

Of course you do. You're the one out of the bags right there, person.

Nick VinZant 1:05:34

Well, I also like to engage in edibles in the weekend, and I'm just gonna take the whole bag. I'm not messing with his bowl. Give me the bag.

John Shull 1:05:40

So my list is foods that you eat out of a bowl. Not necessarily come in a bowl, but foods that you eat out of a bowl, and my number five is popcorn.

Nick VinZant 1:05:51

So here's to be like top five foods you eat in a bowl. Yes. Okay, my number five is a burrito bowl. Hall. I love a burrito bowl. Yes. Fantastic. I love mixing all kinds of stuff together. It's

John Shull 1:06:08

amazing. It's you still have in the same burrito for dinner? Yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:06:12

I have burritos for dinner about four times a week.

John Shull 1:06:14

Well, yeah, protein, right.

Nick VinZant 1:06:18

They switch it up though. Sometimes I go chicken. Sometimes I'll go ground turkey. Grab sometimes I'll go you know, like, Well, yeah, no, actually, that's about it. Cuz that chicken

John Shull 1:06:26

rounds her shit out of here. Oh, okay.

Nick VinZant 1:06:29

What's your what's your cholesterol level? How many times you go to the doctor to get a checkup?

John Shull 1:06:35

They can't even read my cholesterol because they don't have a chart big enough.

Nick VinZant 1:06:39

He had issues with number four.

John Shull 1:06:42

Yes, to say the least. My number four is fruit. eating fruit out of a bowl is fantastic.

Nick VinZant 1:06:49

I don't think that you understood this list. Its food you can eat out of a bowl. No, it's food that comes in a bowl like this because you could put it in a bowl like cheeseburger. Listen, do cheeseburger bowl. Do

John Shull 1:07:03

you want cheeseburger in the bowl and

Nick VinZant 1:07:05

eat it out?

John Shull 1:07:06

Would you like to start over because you have cereal? You sent me some examples and you said cereal and cereal out of a bowl and it doesn't come in a bowl. You put it up everybody.

Nick VinZant 1:07:17

Everybody that you eat. Everybody accepts that you eat cereal out of a bowl. Nobody's eating it out of their hands. Right? But you can eat fruit by itself, right?

John Shull 1:07:27

But people don't eat popcorn just out of the bag unless they're you.

Nick VinZant 1:07:31

Right? But how often when we have these lists to go out, and then they come back with Wow, Jon's wrong on that.

John Shull 1:07:38

Listen, I have the text proof of you sent me two examples. And they are both things that go into a bowl.

Nick VinZant 1:07:45

Yeah, but cereal and soup are different than fruit. Although I do actually eat fruit out of a bowl, but it's frozen. Does it count?

John Shull 1:07:56

Let's I guess our lists are just gonna have to be separate this week. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:08:00

well, so one of them's gonna be right. And one of them's gonna be yours.

John Shull 1:08:04

Yeah, you're right, the right list.

Nick VinZant 1:08:07

My number four is noodles. Any kind of noodles? Ramen Noodles fo far. Pokey bowl. ice bowl, any kind of like noodle based thing like that. Although I use it noodle base, but you get it rice and noodle bowls.

John Shull 1:08:24

I mean, I have ramen and rice stir fry bowls on my honorable mention.

Nick VinZant 1:08:30

Okay, that works. That's your number three. Sandwich. Close sandwich bowl.

John Shull 1:08:36

Salad.

Nick VinZant 1:08:38

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Okay, do you have salad at number three?

John Shull 1:08:42

I do because I feel like there's a dominant to like a top two.

Nick VinZant 1:08:46

Okay, but when you have salad like, are you just having lettuce and some dressing? Are you doing all kinds of crap? Do you know the answer? What's what's all in your salad? God, how many special salad tongs? How many pairs of tongs you got? Now?

John Shull 1:09:00

I do have some dogs. We've discussed this. I know. Just

Nick VinZant 1:09:03

to remind me how many pairs of tongs you have at your house?

John Shull 1:09:08

I mean, in total, I mean, I probably have a dozen. I mean, I have four pairs of salad tongs that are the same brand of tongue. But one's a little shorter ones little bigger. They're all separate colors. It's awesome.

Nick VinZant 1:09:23

Do they have their own drawer than the tongue drawer? No. I

John Shull 1:09:27

mean, they're in a they're in like a little container with other utensils like spatulas and things.

Nick VinZant 1:09:33

How many kinds of specialists do you have?

John Shull 1:09:35

I don't know. 810

Nick VinZant 1:09:39

Are you fucking serious? Eight.

John Shull 1:09:42

How long have you been? How long have you been an adult for?

Nick VinZant 1:09:47

I've been I mean since I was I guess. However you wanted to find that. I've been living on my own since I was 18. I tell you what, I've got one spatula because it does the whole job right? It's not oh no good. The big one.

John Shull 1:10:01

I mean, I have big bachelors, littles bachelors non sticks bachelors, Olds bachelors. I don't think listen, if anyone out there wants to comment on any of our social media or send a direct message, maybe maybe I'm in the wrong maybe it's abnormal to have multiple kitchen utensils.

Nick VinZant 1:10:20

You don't have multiple kitchen utensils, right? Like if you had to spatula is like, no way. This is the one that I use on the nonstick pan, so I don't mess up the Teflon or whatever. But if you've got eight spatulas, you've crossed the line. I can I can approve no more than three. If you had three and be like, Okay, well, all right. Maybe.

John Shull 1:10:42

I don't disagree with you. However, I disagree with you if that makes any sense.

Nick VinZant 1:10:49

Yeah, man, I would just be like if my wife came home with another spatula, and we had a spatula, that I'll tell you where that spatula is going. Right out the fucking door.

John Shull 1:10:59

It's not throwing it. Nope, you're putting it in.

Nick VinZant 1:11:01

I've actually that is the only time that is the only thing that I've ever been like upset enough to throw was a spatula. Like I threw it out into the bushes. And then I went and got it because it's not getting rid of a spatula. Like I said, go buy another one.

John Shull 1:11:13

You know, saints either. Well, I tell you what, you do that again. I'll FedEx one over to you.

Nick VinZant 1:11:19

You got plenty of them. What was your number three, by the way, Sal and all of that. Okay, but what do you put in your salad? Like How much stuff do you put in there?

John Shull 1:11:28

So usually salad bass with goat cheese cran and cranberries. Croutons. And then some kind of usually, like vinegar, red sauce. It's good. I probably have that four to four to five days a week. Like, sometimes that's my dinner and I'll just throw a chicken breast in there some ground turkey. Okay, no, I won't grow. Okay, I will not eat ground turkey but chicken breast for sure.

Nick VinZant 1:11:59

Yeah, you wouldn't want ground turkey and salad. That wouldn't be good. Right? Like you got to have some substance in there. Maybe some okay, it's, um, I generally don't approve of anything more than a few things in my salad. I'll have salad salad dressing, maybe some croutons or a bacon bit like thing. What have you started getting all kinds of crap in there. That's too much for me. Like I don't want to deal with all that.

John Shull 1:12:22

If you're a fancy if you're a fancy cheese guy. Good. Gorgonzola blue cheese, man. Goat cheese.

Nick VinZant 1:12:31

You really are such a snob.

John Shull 1:12:33

That's fine. What's your number three.

Nick VinZant 1:12:36

Chili.

John Shull 1:12:38

I left that off the list. But that's that's it's like could be a US number six for me. Like it's it shouldn't be there.

Nick VinZant 1:12:47

How do you put chili behind fruit? This is why I get so upset about your list because you can't possibly say I love fruit. But it's not like a bowl based food.

John Shull 1:12:58

Because I really I don't have a reason I don't. I mean, I just I don't have a reason chili. Chili and fruit could easily be interchangeable but I went with fruit because I went with fruit.

Nick VinZant 1:13:12

Okay, well my number three is chili, which is clearly the right answer. What's your number two cereal? Yeah, cereal is my number two as well.

John Shull 1:13:20

Do we have the same number two and number one?

Nick VinZant 1:13:23

I doubt it because my number one is I think the greatest thing that to be in a bowl that you could possibly imagine.

John Shull 1:13:30

Alright, well, I'll get my number one out of the way. And that's soup.

Nick VinZant 1:13:36

My number one is a bread bowl.

John Shull 1:13:40

I have a love hate relationship with bread bowls. Understand them don't really need to have them.

Nick VinZant 1:13:49

I think that literally everything is better than a bread bowl. Chili bread bowl soup. Red Bull. I think bread bowl is the greatest thing in the world. I think it's the greatest thing in the world. It's creamy and bread. You can dip the bread right in there. It's fantastic.

John Shull 1:14:06

There's a hole fantastic probably stick your head and

Nick VinZant 1:14:10

you can save the bread the only thing apart problem with the bread bowl is you can't really save the bread bowl. It's not a good like to go thing.

John Shull 1:14:17

No not really cannot save the bread bowl.

Nick VinZant 1:14:19

What's your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:14:21

So I got trail mix. dips. Oh,

Nick VinZant 1:14:26

good. See, this is why I'm upset. You're gonna put fruit above dip. Like you're gonna put fruit above Nacho dip. ranch dip is seven layer dip.

John Shull 1:14:37

I'll make you a deal. You dip buy dip.

Nick VinZant 1:14:40

We dip? Yeah, I mean, I did find if you do.

John Shull 1:14:44

See, we talked about ramen. We talked about rice. I have chili on there and I'll end with salsa.

Nick VinZant 1:14:52

Okay, those are all respectable. I actually think your honorable mention list is better than your actual list.

John Shull 1:14:59

I don't know Pretty with you, but what's on your auto imagine?

Nick VinZant 1:15:03

The only thing that I had on my honorable mention was salad. But I'm not going to go ahead and elevate salad up ahead of that. The thing is, is that I would have had a lot of stuff in my honorable mention but I think that they all kind of fell under that noodles rice category that I had at number four like ramen. Is it FFO or FDA?

John Shull 1:15:25

Fo I believe,

Nick VinZant 1:15:26

I think it's fo it spelled pH Oh, I know that. Do you prefer that's all I have in my honorable mention wet noodle

John Shull 1:15:33

or a dry noodle?

Nick VinZant 1:15:36

Hmm, I don't know the difference. You usually don't. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick reading rating. It really helps us out. We really appreciate it and let us know what you think are some of the best foods in a bowl. I just don't I mean, I get it right. Like I eat fruit bowls. I do. But I don't think of fruit as a bowl based food. But let us know what you think.

Treasure Hunter Brent Brisbane

Treasure Hunter Brent Brisbane has found millions of dollars worth of buried treasure, now he’s on the hunt for more. We talk treasure hunting, finding sunken shipwrecks and the secret to finding buried treasure. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Snacks.

Brent Brisbane: 01:23

Pointless: 39:41

Candle of the Month: 57:00

Top 5: 01:04: 42

Contact the Show

Brent Brisbane Website

The 1715 Treasure Fleet

Interview with Treasure Hunter Brent Brisban

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, treasure and snacks.

Brent Brisban 0:20

People are drawn to this I don't know if it was Disney or Robert Louis Stevenson but ingrained in American thought is the idea of finding lost treasure. He ended up getting swindled by a treasure hunter and the keys to the tune of a quarter million dollars in mid 80s. Money. And it was from 1715. And it was just an incredible, beautiful, beautiful coin. And we ended up selling that coin for $425,000.

Nick VinZant 0:46

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is one of if not the best treasure hunter in the world. He's recovered millions of dollars worth of treasure. And right now he's looking for more. This is treasure hunter, Brent Brisbane, like, how do you get into this?

Brent Brisban 1:24

To be honest, I felt asked backwards into it. It was a dream of my father's since I was a young kid. He grew up having never seen the ocean had never, you know, being involved in any of those kinds of things. But he would go to the Saturday morning cereals, and he would see these swashbuckling Adventures of treasure and things like that. And so he had this lifelong passion. And in 1985, when Mel Fisher found a red coffin off of Key West called the atoll gem, he became world famous and my dad, you know, was gravitated towards it. And he ended up getting swindled by a treasure hunter and the keys to the tune of a quarter million dollars in mid 80s. Much of you know, just calm man, basically that had a boat and said, you know, if you give me this money, I'm gonna go fine, you know, just as much as Mel Fisher fam. And needless to say, it didn't work out, but that never left him. And so in 2010, Mel Fisher's family was selling the rights to the 1715 fleet along the east coast of Florida. And having that inclination and being you know, a printer of sorts, my dad called me up in February of 2010, and was like, hey, you know, I'm thinking about buying this business. But the only way I'll do it is if you partner with me, and you come down here and you run it, and I was thinking, treasure hunting in Florida, like, Yeah, I'll give that a shot. And that's how I fell into it. It really was kind of a crazy circuitous route. But nevertheless, it took me where I needed to go, I guess.

Nick VinZant 2:53

So like, the only thing that I can picture right is what I think about in the movies like, how does this How does this business actually work?

Brent Brisban 3:01

It's nothing like you see on TV, it's nothing like you see in the movies. There are two major motion pictures that were made about our fleet specifically, back in the 70s, you're probably too young to remember a movie called the teeth with Nick Nulty and Jacqueline set. So all about looking for the treasure of the 1715 fleet. And then more recently, you probably may know fool's gold with Matthew McConaughey and Kate Hudson. If you go back and watch that movie, they're sitting in darland, southern ones Leon in the parlor there and they they discussed the 1715 fleet, the you know, origin of the treasure that they're searching for. And and so both of those movies, they're searching for something called the Queen's jewels. It was an artifact or artifacts that were theoretically on our shipwrecks. The story goes that the king of Spain's wife died. And he decided that he was going to marry a woman named Elizabeth Barney's. She was the Duchess of Parma, Italy. And she demanded that he before she even consummate the marriage. So he ordered up all these jewels to be created for her down in South America. And as the story goes, they were on one of the ships. And so that provides the basis for both of those movies. But again, it's nothing like you see on TV, it's nothing like you see, it's really hard work. It's incredibly laborious. It's, you know, people think of it as scuba diving. And scuba diving truly is just a necessary evil to be underwater for work. What we do is we excavate the bottom of the ocean. So we go out and we'll dig a hole. Basically, with my boat, it was about 20 feet wide, and you go down to bedrock, and broken limestone bedrock. It's out there on the east coast of Florida. And that's where the artifacts are buried under multiple feet of sand for five, six feet of sand depends on the area where you are. And so you just swim down there with a metal detector and nine times out of 10 or 99 times out of 100 Honestly, you find beer cans and lead fishing cycles. You know, it's just it's not you know, when people think of us went down and you know, pick up gold and you come up to the surface and everybody suits and it does happen. But it's extremely rare.

Nick VinZant 5:08

So it's not like the treasure like when I'm imagining it, right, like there's this old broken up wooden ship on the bottom of the

Brent Brisban 5:14

ocean with a skeleton at the wheel,

Nick VinZant 5:16

right with a skeleton wheel. There's, there's like a crew member in the back. And there's just like a chest somewhere inside of the ship. But it sounds like more like no, it's actually kind of like underneath the ground, and you gotta go dig it up.

Brent Brisban 5:29

Absolutely. What happened with our wrecks, in particular, they were sailing along the east coast of Florida and hurricane began to blow. And that pushed them into the outer edge of the reef, which is only in about 2530 feet of water. And so once they hit that reef, and the waves just pounded the shipwrecks into 1000s of pieces. And those pieces then were pushed towards the beach, and northward because of the Gulf, the current and the Gulf Stream. And so what happens is these wrecks were dispersed over miles. And over time, you know, they've been out there for 320 odd years at this point. What happened is all of the organic material, all of the, the leather, anything that was natural or organic, is long dissipate. So there is no really chip rack, you don't you know, just scattered debris, and it's along the lines of iron, you know, all of the iron that affects the ship from spikes to the rigging. And then you know, pewters, you know, they had different plates, things like that. All the metals that you find the gold, the silver, you know, which is what we're looking for, but there's LED and the musket balls, the cannon balls, things like that are really all that's left there ceramics as well. But anything of an organic nature, the people, the bones, the wood, the leather is all disintegrated over time. And

Nick VinZant 6:56

so how do you even go about finding stuff? Like what's the process for finding out I guess, not only essentially finding out where to even look

Brent Brisban 7:06

where the shipwrecks were identified in the late 50s, and early 60s, so they've pretty much been known about, you know, people started finding artifacts on the beach. There's a famous story of Kip Wagner, one of my predecessors on the 1715 fleet. He was a painting contractor, he went down to Florida on a job to paint a hotel, and he would walk the beaches in the evening. And he started finding these little black oxidized round pieces that look basically like Oreos, one side of an Oreo, took it home, cleaned it up, and lo and behold, it was a silver coin. And he started asking around saying, hey, you know, where do these things come from? And the locals are just like, oh, people have been finding that stuff out there for years. And he was the first one that really decided, Well, where did it come from? Well, you know why these things aren't organically on the beach in Florida. And he got himself a surplus army mind detector, because they didn't have metal detectors back in the late 50s. And he took this mind detector, and he went out there swinging it along the beach, and he started finding more and more artifacts. And eventually he found that a well that he had determined had to have been done by the survivors of the shipwreck, finding all sorts of period artifacts from the Spanish colonial times around this well, when he decided well, that Rex got to be right out there. So he got himself a surfboard. And he cut a little hole in the surfboard. And he put a window in it. And he started paddling around in the ocean. And after a couple of weeks, he spotted cannons on the bottom of the ocean, and said, you know, this is it. And that really truly was the advent of modern treasure hunting in the state of Florida.

Nick VinZant 8:40

It was funny how something is so hard to find, but then ultimately ended up being right in front of your face.

Brent Brisban 8:45

It's right there. And it was right there. And people, like I said, had been finding this stuff out there. But nobody was inquisitive enough to say where did it come from. And he eventually went to the archives in Seville, Spain, you know, went to the archives down in Cuba, found out where it was that it was this actual fleet. You know, the 1715 treasure fleet consisted of 11 Spanish ships, every one of them went down in this hurricane on July 30, the hurricane began to blow and by 2am on July 31, of 1715 all 11 ships were sunk along the east coast of Florida. And so, you know, is natural as that may sound that, you know, people were finding this stuff and would want to know, you know, want to find more maybe, or at least find out where it came from. He was the first to really do that. And so, by the time I got into it in 2010, we had very comprehensive math and the Fisher organization, were they a gentleman named Bill Moore kind of created a system in AutoCAD to map where we had dug empty holes where you know, if anything was found in that hole, it had a separate color, you know, be it a musket ball or a ship spike or gold coins. And we use those maps to kind of say, hey, you know, gold was found over there. Let's No one looked there. Let's go dig there. And it's really kind of that blind that needle gotta hate that type of approach. But that's, you know, ultimately what we do on a day in and day out.

Nick VinZant 10:05

It sounds like ultimately, like an educated guess like, Well, I think it might be here. But really, we have kind of no idea

Brent Brisban 10:13

if that's exactly right. And I kind of developed a new procedure, which led to my success, to be quite honest with you, you know, what these old timers had done is they would set up on the inside edge of the reef, and they would start digging backwards towards the beach. And so basically, what they did is they took, you know, one or two feet of sand and they pushed it backwards, and then they would check what was there and then they would drop the boat back. And then they would dig through the two feet that they just pushed backwards plus the two or three feet, and that was already there. And so as they dropped back in towards the beach, they just kept piling up more and more things. And it took me you know, a summer I'm saying, this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen, you know why we keep doing this, you know, we're creating more and more work for each other. And so I started the idea of taking the boat as far back as we could literally till we would bump on the edge of the beach. And then we would start digging. And we would dig four or five, six holes across. And then when we pull forward, and so by the time we got to that second row, all of the spoil from our holes were pushed back into these empty holes that were already there. It took me the digging time cut in half. And it was ultimately the way that we got further back into the beach than anyone had ever gotten before. And that's how we found all the treasure that we found in 2015.

Nick VinZant 11:31

So if you had to put like $1 value on everything that you found so far, what would that be?

Brent Brisban 11:39

Well, the biggest blind we had was a really, truly crazy story. It was on I had been doing this for about six years, I had over a million dollars invested in this crazy operation. And I had about $300,000 worth of treasure at the time. Now this $300,000 was getting me on the Today Show Good Morning, America, you name it. Yeah, a lot of publicity, a lot of attention. Everybody I met, like you're living the dream, and I'm like, I'm going bankrupt. You know, um, 700 plus law. And 2015 was our anniversary season. You know, I had hoped from the time that I got into it, that something good would happen, you know, just you know, from the powers that been, and lo and behold, this is gonna sound crazy, but you can look it up on July 30 and 31st, exactly 300 years to the day the ship sank in a hurricane. I found 350 gold coins worth four and a half million dollars on the bottom, the Atlantic Ocean.

Nick VinZant 12:34

What was that? Like?

Brent Brisban 12:36

It was incredible changed my life. Obviously, it was, you know, I refer to it as being magical. There's a feeling that you get high that you get when this thing happens, that I really can't describe or articulate. It's it's such a special feeling the first night none of us slept, you know, we couldn't wait to get back out there the next day to see what what more was there. And it was interesting, because it was the 300th anniversary, there was a large group from all over the world that had come to Sebastian, Florida to celebrate this anniversary, you know, aficionados of the shipwrecks, and so the night of the 30th, they had a big dinner at a local restaurant where I had to keep my boat. And so we were all there were three sheets to the wind almost certainly had a couple of cocktails to celebrate. And I went up and I had had a table reserved at this dinner, you know, right down in front. And so we're kind of standing in the back watching the proceedings, and the guy that put it on, he calls me up to the front. You know, it's like get up there to the day. And I'm like, hey, you know, I'm sorry, I couldn't be here tonight. I mean, it's kind of stupid. I suppose I'm standing here, I guess you know, that sounds crazy. I'm like, but we had some things happen today. And I'll never forget, Mel Fisher's daughter, her name was Taffy Fisher. And she was there Mel Fisher and a very famous thing. Today's the day because in treasure hunting today is not always the day. And you but you have to believe it. Yeah, it's the only thing that kind of keeps you going when you're, you know, $700,000 in the hole and doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And so she screamed out Today's a day and I spotted Yes, today was the day and the whole room exploded. And so needless to say, the next day, we had a lot of people on the beach watching us and you know, keeping an eye on what we're up to. But it was it was a surreal experience. It was magical. It was a time of great celebration. I was happy for all of my crew, you know, they only work for a sheriff treasurer. They didn't get paid weekly stipend or anything like that. They had come to me, you know, I had previously paid crews. And these guys came to me and they said we don't want money. We want to treasure and so in 2014 You know, they didn't do so well. You know, they worked all summer and then they got you know, couple of silver coins, couple musket balls, that kind of thing, but it really paid off in 2015 and it's an experience I'll never forget.

Nick VinZant 14:56

So how does that work in terms of like, who gets what Right, like do you have if you find finders keepers?

Brent Brisban 15:02

Okay, my company has a federal Admiralty claim over the shipwrecks. So the ultimate control of these racks is the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida. And that was earned basically fought for by Mel Fisher, my predecessor he filed a case in 1979. And what you do maritime and admiralty law is very old, archaic, and it really hasn't been refined on that well, so you go into federal court and you sue the shipwreck. Okay, so you launch a lawsuit against certain unidentified shipwreck located at such and such location. And then you have to put out a public notice that anyone that's got a claim to these shipwrecks needs to come forward in this case and state their claim. Now what constituted you know, public notice in 1979 was a, you know, advertisement this big in the Fort Pierce newspaper. So your kingdom of Spain was unaware of this these proceedings, and they did not ever see nowadays they would, and they would ultimately get the rights to these racks. But because they didn't intercede at the time, the state of Florida was the only other intervening part. And it went all the way to 1983 was a settlement that was reached between Mel Fisher and the state of Florida. And under the terms of that agreement, we have permits with the state of Florida, which enable us to go out there and do what we do. And in exchange for that, we agreed to donate 20% of what we find to the state of Florida to put in their museum to study to lend out the universities, those kinds of things for archaeologists. And so it's basically you know, finders keepers situation for me, no one else, you know, if they go out there, it's it's illegal to do so, particularly within these areas, but anywhere else in Florida Water, it's illegal to hunt for treasure. And the state law in Florida is if you bring up anything over 50 years old is considered an antiquity and therefore belongs to the state of Florida. So in the case of my racks, you know, I own them in, you know, exclusively other than this state donation. And then as far as my crew, we worked out a percentage ahead of time of what they would gain, if, in fact, we found anything. And in 2015, we did and they all did very well.

Nick VinZant 17:14

So for like throughout the industry, right? Like if you looked at treasure hunting as an industry, are there a lot of people doing this?

Brent Brisban 17:22

There may be, but they're very quiet about it. If they are, it's virtually illegal Now to do this anywhere in the United States of America, the US signed into international treaties, and submerged cultural resources act, and different things. Whereby, you know, if we lose a nuclear submarine, we don't want China going out there and picking through it. And so as a result of this treaty, it basically says that if any ship can be, you know, proven that it's, you know, owned by a any kind of, you know, nation that it belongs to them. And by virtue of sign the United States signing on to this treaty. Basically, it made treasure hunting like this illegal throughout the United States. There's a perfect example, there's a company called Odyssey out of Tampa, Florida. And they found a wreck called The Black Swan was out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, not many countries, territorial waters, and they spent millions of dollars going out there and using ROV because it was so deep to pick up all of this treasure, they brought it back to Tampa, and they went into federal court, much as Mel Fisher did in 79. And they tried to claim this well, Spain came along and said no, that's all. And ultimately, the United States courts gave it all back to Spain. No finder's fee, no thank you. They said to you know, jumbo planes from the Air Force over and they picked up all of this silver and gold and took it back to Spain. And so that's basically the law now that control. And so it's incredibly rare and incredibly difficult to find a permit in the United States to actually go out and salvage historic shipwrecks, particularly of Spanish origin.

Nick VinZant 19:08

Can people is this though, something that like, you could do this illegally. And it's enough of a kind of a draw, that somebody might kind of do that way and then try to sell it on the black mark.

Brent Brisban 19:20

I'm not naive enough to think that people don't. But it is an incredibly difficult process. As I said, you know, in the case of ours, you know, all the gold that I found, was under multiple feet of sand. And so you have to go out there and you have to be able to excavate that sand. And so the way we do that is Mel Fisher pioneered a device that they call a mailbox. It's basically an aluminum tube that you swing down over the propeller of the boat, and you use the engines, the force of that water to below the standard way to excavate and so these boats are very noticeable. Anybody you know, we ain't around four points to off the bat to off the stern. And it's really obvious if somebody's out there. You're doing this. And so I'm not naive enough to think that people don't swim around with metal detectors. But what I consider the low hanging fruit to things that are laying on top of the reef, for the most part have been picked up over the last 50 years. And there are certainly other areas of Florida where people do this as well. But they're, you know, really is no legal way thought we'd have to think that anybody that is doing it is doing it, you know, on the download.

Nick VinZant 20:25

So the name of the fleet is the 1715 fleet. That's the name correct.

Brent Brisban 20:30

15 plate fleet. Plata, basically was the Spanish word for silver. And so you know, it was mostly silver. And that's the name of the fleet that has become known as today. And the reason that they were able to determine where it came from Kip Wagner and the, you know, old timers that were doing this, when they went to Seville, Spain, they found a map made by an English cartographer named Bernard Roman. And he had, you know, charted the east coast of Florida. And he made a little notation across from the St. Sebastian river. And it said, opposite there's river parish, the admiral commanding the 1715, playfully. And that's how they were able to determine what this fleet was, and then go into the archives research how many vessels that was how much gold and silver had on it? Who were the captains? Who were the, you know, those sorts of things? And that's, that's where the story generator originated.

Nick VinZant 21:25

So how much more invaluable is do you think is down there?

Brent Brisban 21:30

To be honest, no one knows, no one has any idea. There are crazy, crazy numbers thrown around, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. If I was to be perfectly frank, I don't believe that's the case. I mean, worldwide, maybe there are, you know, but you know, the, the shipwrecks that we're, you know, there's millions and millions of shipwrecks all littered all over you. Very few of them were carrying, you know, vast hordes of precious cargo, like these, you know, what had happened was that Spain had, you know, basically colonized, you know, central South America, Mexico, and then they enslaved those peoples and put them to work in their minds. And so they were producing this gold and silver down there. And then they were shipping it back, you know, through Havana, Cuba, on its way back to Spain. And so the vast majority of sunken Spanish treasure is either off the east coast of South America, or Central America, around Cuba, or the east coast of Florida.

Nick VinZant 22:25

Now, when you look kind of worldwide, you know, obviously the United States has pretty strong rules about and we talked about that. But are there places in other countries where like, oh, no, they're really doing this pretty actively. They're? Well,

Brent Brisban 22:37

you know, there is a rack that was found, it's, I believe, it's called the San Jose. And I want to say it's off the coast of Ecuador. I'm not 100% of that. But, you know, it is a government operation now. And they've taken over the, you know, the finding of it, some, some individuals found it, but then the government took it over. And so they are, as far as I know, actively savage in these records. But as far as you know, any permitted operations that are really truly legal and aboveboard, that there's a small operation going on in the Bahamas, the Bahamas, have had a long history of treasure salvage, and then barring the Bahamas, their politics are very crazy in the, you know, the government turns over every couple of years. And so they go back and forth. But there is an operation down there. Now, a friend of mine named Danny Porter is the one that basically runs the operation. And there's, you know, salvaging to this day and finding some truly amazing artifacts. Now, unfortunately, the generally looking, you know, they've got permits for a wide swath of the ocean, but the main rack that they've been working is a rack that was found years and years ago. And so, you know, there's not a, you know, a mother lode so to say that they're going to really stumbled across at least in my belief, I'm sure they do, but they're picking up incredible and amazing artifacts along the trail.

Nick VinZant 24:01

Is Spain, like the only people that were doing this is like everything, or is everything just a compilation of they were doing it and they had the records for us to potentially

Brent Brisban 24:11

know was primarily Spain, you know, back in the from the 1500s. Through, you know, the 1700s Spain was the dominant maritime power in the world. And in the the explorers, you know, from Columbus, you know, right on down the bizarro. Bizarro is one that went down to South America, basically conquered the Inca took over their minds took over all their gold and began giving it back to Spain. So like this coin here, was made in Lima, Peru in 1711. And so we find a lot of gold from Lima, Peru, a small amount from Cusco, Peru, and Bogota, Colombia, Mexico City, and so the Spanish, you know, they had colonized, you know, basically the West and they were bringing up there valuables and sending them back to Spain. And there was no one else really doing that at the time. And so yeah, all of the treasure out there is basically Spanish origin.

Nick VinZant 25:09

So that the coin that you held up, like how much would that individually be worth?

Brent Brisban 25:14

This coin is what they call an eight scudo. So it was the largest denomination coin that they made. It weighs about an ounce. So an ounce of gold is worth about $2,000. But this coin is anywhere from 20 to $25,000.

Nick VinZant 25:28

Just keeping that in your house,

Brent Brisban 25:30

I keep it in my wallet. And people think I'm crazy. I tell them, It's my business card. But yeah, actually, you know, bring it out and drop it in people's hands. And, you know, it really is a visceral experience. When you drop it into somebody's hand and they feel the weight of it and they look at it. It's it brings them to kind of a magical place of you know, touching lost treasure. And thinking about where it's been like if you think about it, you know, this coin was made in Lima, Peru, was put on a ship on the west coast of South America, sailed up to Panama, unloaded, put on a mule, hiked across the Isthmus of Panama, put on another ship that then took it to Havana, Cuba. And then you know, shortly thereafter ended up in a hurricane on the bottom of the Atlantic coast and along the east coast of Florida.

Nick VinZant 26:16

The history of it is fascinating, right? Like, where has this stuff been? Who has touched it? How did it get made? Like it's

Brent Brisban 26:22

it is and that's what really draws people in. Because you can sit and think about it like that journey I told you of this specific coin. And if you think about it, this is a little context that I tried to give to people, which people always are kind of blown away by this treasure sank in 1715, it was sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean 17 years before George Washington was born into some context of what was, you know, what America was, you know, the room really no settlements in Florida, other than St. Augustine, the Spanish had a settlement there. And so it was basically the eyes Indians, were the only inhabitants of this area of Florida, when all of this treasure went down?

Nick VinZant 27:03

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. How much does it cost you just to essentially look for the treasure,

Brent Brisban 27:12

you know, we spent, I bought my boat, I probably put maybe $120,000 into buying and building this boat. So you know, obviously, that's a variable, you've got fuel, you've got metal detectors and crew costs, you've got Dockage, and all those sorts of things. So I can't put a specific number on it. But I would say on average, you know, we're between 50 and $100,000 a year. And that's just for my boat. Now, our operations are kind of unique in that we allow others that want to go out there and do this to work our racks and our permits. So if you've got your own boat, and you've got your own crew, and you want to go out there and do this, you know, we sign what we call sub contracts with people. And basically that gives them the right to go within our permitted areas and search for this treasure. And the deal is if they find anything, we split it 5050 After we make that donation to the state. So you know, I've got operations where you know, Mike Pirna is one of the best treasure hunters that are is out there. And he probably spends less than 10,000, maybe $12,000 a year on his operation. And the last four or five years, he's found the most treasure of anybody. So it's wildly disparate, you know what people can spend, you know, you can outfit it with as much technology as you want. But, you know, at the end of the day is really about digging holes and seeing what's at the bottom.

Nick VinZant 28:30

But is there enough to be found that somebody could make like a decent living if they were being successful, or just like I did.

Brent Brisban 28:38

But it's a rare, you know, the occurrence most people don't make a lot of money. You know, there have been years where subcontractors have made money, good money, there's a family called the students that went out there. And then 2015 They found the most valuable coin that I had ever been a part of. And you can put some pictures up of it. It's called the tricentennial royal, a name that I came up with because it was from 1715. And what a royal is, it's the same as this coin, same way. But as you see this coins, very imperfect, you know, it's misshapen around at the time, all they cared about was the weight and the purity of the gold. So they would clip the blank, they would file the blank, get it to the right way, eat it smack in between two dyes and whatever came out came out. But these Royals were perfect examples of the coinage of the time. And they were made for the king of Spain himself. And so they were made his presentation pieces. They're extremely rare and they're extremely valuable. We found nine of them in my board on the anniversary but the Smiths earlier in that season found one and it was from 1715 and it was just an incredible, beautiful, beautiful coin. And we ended up selling that coin for $425,000 for one ounce of gold.

Nick VinZant 29:55

So I mean, man, are you selling it then like at auction? Are you true? way to get in for the price of gold or how does this kind of work

Brent Brisban 30:02

basically, private collectors are the ones that are the most enthusiastic about it and so you know, it's really wealthy people with you know, probably too much money that you know by these points for hundreds of 1000s of dollars. And then the more mundane run of the mill coins as you know, something that we call basically a bogey to Bogota to scudo which is a quarter of an ounce, they sell anywhere from you know, six to $8,000 and people you know, some of them if they're nicer and they have unique dates and things like that you go for far more but you know, what people do with a lot of those is they make jewelry out people love to hang out for as pendants you know, women particularly earrings, those kinds of things. So we do know as I said donate some to the state of Florida for their museum, but the vast majority of this whole the private

Nick VinZant 30:47

collectors biggest treasure ever found is yours. The biggest treasure ever found or is there another one that's the no that would have to be the

Brent Brisban 30:55

Atocha. Okay, in 1985. I mentioned earlier, Mel Fisher, my predecessor, he found a wreck off of Key West called the Etosha. And it was estimated to have $400 million where the treasure on him at the time. Now again, in treasure hunting, you know, numbers can be greatly inflated. And I don't believe anybody thought for under a million dollars a Charizard. But you know, they, you know this because they're still trading hands and on one at Silver coin from the Bucha sells for $2,500. So more than the an ounce of regular gold. And you know, so you know, those coins are still on the market today, the Fisher family is still out there actively salvaging utopia, you know, they haven't had any returns like that. 85. But, you know, they find really amazing artifacts,

Nick VinZant 31:44

the biggest treasure still out there is there one that you would say like this, there's I can't

Brent Brisban 31:48

put my finger on any specific one. But to find one of these, you know, plate fleet vessels, or you know, Spanish racks that are loaded with treasure, as a virgin rack would be amazing, like this one that I told you about that in South America. I mean, I believe that will probably be the you know, the biggest fine in modern times, simply because it's all intact, you know, the deeper the wreck that the you know, Odyssey group found out the middle of the Atlantic, the wrecks all kind of in one general specific area, and went down more like you think of a ship intact, that sank to the bottom. As opposed to what we do, we're picking up pieces that are scattered for miles and miles and miles. So there's no you know, generalized mother mode. It's just we're picking up piles here and there from different things. You know, like all the gold coins I found in 2015, we theorize probably came from a chest. So you know, all the wood you'll gain was long gone. And all these coins are scattered in about a 20 by 20 foot area. But as far as a big something to shoot for, I couldn't really put my finger on any specific rack or anything like that.

Nick VinZant 32:58

I guess if people knew about it, they would probably have found it already.

Brent Brisban 33:02

I get calls from people all the time telling me they know right where it is. And I like to tell people that I don't know a treasure hunter in the world that knows where treasure is, and isn't out there going like this, you know, trying to get and so there's a lot of con artists, I'll be perfectly frank to get drawn to the treasure industry. It's an easy sell. You know, people are drawn to this. I don't know if it was Disney or Robert Louis Stevenson but ingrained in American thought is the idea of finding lost treasure. And so to be able to sit in a bar and pull up one of these coins and say, hey, you know, you give me 10 grand, I'm gonna go find a million dollars for this stuff next summer. It's a really easy style. And unfortunately, that draws income. And I made it my mission, once I took over to try to weed those people out and not let them out there because it just gives a bad name to everybody. It's basically a con and I just didn't want to

Nick VinZant 33:54

be a part of best movie or TV show about treasure hunting worst movie or TV show about

Brent Brisban 34:02

I would say, deep is my favorite. It's the first radar movie that my father ever took me to. Again, it was his fascination with this kind of thing. And really, I think came out in 1977, which would have made me nine years old. And he took me and my brother to see this because he had such a passion for it. And I really enjoy that movie. The worst? You know, I have to say, Me, you know, Black Sails. You know, it was an interesting story about pirates in the Bahamas. And all that was true as far as their actual, you know, they use our fleet again and that is the basis of their storyline. They're looking for the one of the ships from the rack and Arcana Leamas the ship that they use, but the Orca Lima didn't really have any treasure on it. And so you know, it's, you know, obviously I'm getting into the weeds and being very specific about it, but yeah, those would probably be my To

Nick VinZant 35:00

obviously, you know, you find like what I think most people think about is like treasure, which I think like silver or gold, but what else? What else? What other kinds of things do you generally find when you find stuff like this find

Brent Brisban 35:12

every single thing that you can think of from life on a ship at that time. So, it may be rigging, you know, dead eyes, the rope was, you know, pushed through the sea on the side of ships, which are basically, they wouldn't round pieces that have, you know, three holes in it with ropes going through them. They had iron around them, which would fix them to the rail. So we find a lot of iron, we find cannonballs, we find cannon, we find musket balls, we find arguments we find, you know, silverware was made of silver at the time, we'll find silver spoons and silver forks and plates, you name it, we find jewelry, a lot of rings, you know, and it's amazing how small the Spanish word that time, I mean, a ring that we find will not fit below my knuckle on my pinky, even the mens rea, because they're such tiny people. So everything that you can possibly imagine, you know, the olive jar is basically it's up. All jars are ceramic, with a hole in the top of it. And I refer to that as the Tupperware of the time, you know, any liquids and grains and things like that they were transporting and put into one of these earthen jugs with cork on the top of it. And so we find broken pieces of pottery out there. And so, you know, anything that you can imagine that was on one of these tabs, we find sword handles, you know? So, you know, it runs the gamut. But yeah, the goal is whatever. But

Nick VinZant 36:40

is there a market for all the rest of that stuff?

Brent Brisban 36:43

Absolutely. Yeah, people are fascinated with the idea of sunken ship racks. And so I know the fishers sell, you know, musket balls, little LED basketballs for $15 apiece and their museum. I take mine and I hand them out to people that come to my half, you know, stuff like that. Anybody I meet, I'm like, Are you gonna take a little souvenir, broken pieces of pottery as well and out the you know, people that come by, so it you know, it just kind of depends on your perspective. I've never been solely focused on the monetization of these artifacts. I like to share it. But obviously the goal, you know, I did my best. And

Nick VinZant 37:17

that's pretty much all the questions we got, man. Is there anything that you think we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you? How can people get ahold of you find out more that kind of stuff.

Brent Brisban 37:26

But I can, you know, go to Brent brisbane.com, I do some speaking engagements. And you know, that sort of thing. I gave a TED Talk back in 2015, about my experiences. After we found the treasurer, and then 1715, fleet, treasurer, 1715 treasurer, fleet.com is the website for the company. And if you're interested, you know, to become a subcontractor. And I'll be honest, I get a lot of calls from a lot of people that all want to do this. And I usually tell them, they're crazy. They don't know what they're talking about, because it is extremely hard. And you know, usually people come and they spend a lot of money and they go away, hang me or anybody else and put them out there. Because it's just not as easy as it looks on TV. And so we do welcome people, I mean, calls from Navy SEALs, and you know, one of the most important things I will tell you about this, it's all about metal detector, I would tell these Navy SEALs, have you ever used the metal detector? And they say no, I'm like, I've got no use for you. I mean, we're digging sometimes, where I found my treasure was 20 feet off the beach and six feet of water. So you don't mean to be stupid. You know, you need to be a scuba diver to be breathing underwater. But you don't have any technical, you know, aspects of scuba diving that you need to know. It's all about metal detecting. And that's who I would hire, I would hire guys that we saw on the beach that are out there swinging a metal detector all the time looking for different things. You know, they're fascinated by it, they live it, they really breathe it. Those are the people that make good trades. And the average person just wants that moment of coming, breaking the surface and holding up that gold coin and saying look what I found. That's not what it's about. It's really hard work digging through broken shells, turning over big heavy rock cutting up your fingers cutting up your knees. It's it's not at all romantic.

Nick VinZant 39:07

I want to thank Brent so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have linked to him on our social media sites were Profoundly Pointless on tick tock, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description if you want to see how they find this treasure and what this treasure really looks like. The YouTube version of this episode will be live on September 7 on our YouTube channel at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. What's the most valuable thing that you've ever just found?

John Shull 39:50

I mean, it's money. But it's I found a $50 bill once outside of a movie theater

Nick VinZant 39:57

did you try to find to the right It owner was or did you just immediately pocket it and move on?

John Shull 40:03

Yeah, no, I just pocketed it. Because with money, it's, I mean, unless somebody's you know, staring at it and coming back up to you saying, Hey, that's mine. I mean, it's kind of hard to pinpoint it.

Nick VinZant 40:16

I think I've found 100 I think that I was in Vegas and found 100. It might have been a 50. But I think that it was 100. And that's the most valuable thing that I've ever found. I did find

John Shull 40:28

a an earring, but I'm pretty sure it was just a non real diamond. And I just threw it away. So

Nick VinZant 40:37

you just threw somebody's thing away. You literally put it in the trash.

John Shull 40:41

You know, I mean, I picked it up. I waited there for a few minutes. Where I found it. Nobody came up to me, then let me there's so many businesses. So what was I going to do? Walk in, not throw it in the trash walk into every business? No, just like put it down on a railing or something like now there's no chance of anybody finding that? Well, I found it in my city, in Madison Heights, Michigan. So I

Nick VinZant 41:06

Oh, you finally admit that you don't actually live in Detroit? Thank you

John Shull 41:12

mean, or was a mass? Maybe it was?

Nick VinZant 41:15

Oh, now he's trying to backtrack? What amount of cash do you find on the ground before you're like, Oh, I found something? Like how much money does it take for you to be pretty excited that you found money on the ground?

John Shull 41:25

I mean, it's always great to find something I don't want to make it seem like if I find $5 That it's nothing but I mean, if I find a 20 I'm feeling pretty good. Oh, if

Nick VinZant 41:35

I found $1 I'm feeling pretty good. I'm like, oh, that's $1 I litter. That's the only time you don't really have to work for money. Do you ever you ever find it on the ground? Otherwise, you got to do something one way or another?

John Shull 41:46

There's that coin thing that if you find a coin heads down? You don't pick it up? Do you do that? Or if you see a coin, you pick it up? Regardless?

Nick VinZant 41:54

I'm not picking anything coins off the ground? I wouldn't I have no, I don't do that at all.

John Shull 42:00

Would you ever pick up food off the ground?

Nick VinZant 42:04

No. Have you picked up food off the ground? Although I have always thought that if I was like a waiter or something like that, like some of that food, like you know what you really didn't need. You took like two bites out of that burger. I could cut the back half off and eat it. I really do feel like that's a waste. I really think that like, Hey, does anybody I have always felt like that in a restaurant had been like, hey, you know, I didn't eat this. Does anybody want this? I hate wasting food. I was

John Shull 42:31

talking to a co worker of mine who used to wait. And so that that was the most disheartening. Part of working in that industry, for him was all the food waste at the end of the night. Other people that would just order order a hamburger, like you said, not touch the fries and eat a quarter of the burger and then throw it away.

Nick VinZant 42:51

But if somebody was okay, if you were at a restaurant, and somebody just kind of came up to your table is like, look, hey, I didn't eat this. I took two bites out of this. Do you want the rest of this? Would you take the food?

John Shull 43:06

I mean, I'm going to say no. But I, I would want to say yes.

Nick VinZant 43:10

Yeah, that's how I feel like I feel like I would have to say no, because I'm probably there with somebody who's going to judge me and shamed me into making sure that I don't get it. But internally, I do feel like yeah, I'll take it.

John Shull 43:25

I mean, I mean, listen to bytes, and you're given me you know, whatever it is sure. If I have a couple of beers in me, I wouldn't even hesitate. I'd probably take it out of your hands before you even asked me.

Nick VinZant 43:36

Yeah, if it's a sandwich that's cut in half. And they, if it's already cut in half, if it is already kind of separated in any way, I would have no problem with it. Right? Like, hey, I ate two of these pancakes. But I got another one here. That's untouched. Do you want this? Like, yeah, I'll take that. If it's untouched, if I can segment it in a way that is untouched. I'm completely okay with it.

John Shull 44:00

I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't know about the pancake thought process. But I mean, even if someone gave me like, a burger that I two bites out of it, and I had to cut it, I would cut it I'm fine with that. I have no issue doing that.

Nick VinZant 44:13

The only thing with the burgers you could say well they touched the other part of it. What I mean it people at barbecues and stuff like there's foods is just sitting out there for hours and everybody's okay with that.

John Shull 44:24

I will say this about germs is that I used to not care at all and then the pandemic happened. And now I find myself washing my hands, using you know, antibacterial soap, like actually trying to fend off germs.

Nick VinZant 44:38

You mean like doing what you did actually supposed to be doing your entire life.

John Shull 44:42

But now you know, we're getting sicker. So it doesn't matter. It doesn't you know, whatever it is what it is.

Nick VinZant 44:47

Yeah, it is what it is. Okay. All right. Let's go and do some shout outs.

John Shull 44:50

So some shout outs I was talking about

Nick VinZant 44:53

I would definitely take pizza man. I see people leaving sometimes like a half empty pizza and like that's fucking ridiculous. Give that to them.

John Shull 45:00

Don't worry. I mean, why not just take it home at that point? That's what I don't understand.

Nick VinZant 45:06

Maybe they're on a date. I had a very big discussion once with a friend of mine about he thinks, or he thought I should say that the reason that he didn't get a second date was because he asked for it to go container. Do you think getting food to go on a date? cancels your prospects for getting a second or third or another date with that person? Like if a man gets it to go container? Is he shutting down his date prospects?

John Shull 45:34

I don't think it matters. I don't think I think at that point that the Knights obviously coming to an end. And I think the decisions already been made. I don't think it would matter to the other person. Whether you got it to go or not i If anything, I think it shows a little restraint. Or a little discipline that you're willing to box up food and take it home.

Nick VinZant 45:57

I don't know. I could see it early on in the dating process. I could see getting it to go container early on in dating as a little bit of a he didn't need all his food. He got it to go container. I can see some judgment. I can see it.

John Shull 46:15

I mean, you're talking to the wrong person, though. I'm the I mean, let's not forget I was stood up choice and had to box up to very nice steak dinners, and take home.

Nick VinZant 46:27

Sounds like a good deal to be honest with you.

Brent Brisban 46:30

Paid for all of it.

Nick VinZant 46:33

Oh, they got the dinner and then laughter Oh, that's the worst. Yeah. Well, at least you got well, you technically got both dinners then. Yeah, but everybody really is a win win for you. If you think about it. Once you get past yourself. You're crushing self-confidence,

John Shull 46:49

but everybody knows that. Leftovers are not the same. Like if you get a steak at a steakhouse, the leftover steak the next day is not it's not anywhere near when it was first made.

Nick VinZant 47:02

Yeah, some things you can't really heat back up. I would make an argument that Italian food is generally better the second time around the front, you put it in a slow saucepan, heat it up, I'd I would actually cook spaghetti. Cook it all the way through. Let it cool down. Then reheat it in like a frying pan. It's way better. I'm gonna do that tonight.

John Shull 47:28

Oh, yeah. Well, we are three hours. I was gonna say it's getting kind of late to have dinner but we are three hours apart. So. Yeah. All right. All right. Let's get to what people care about. Here's some shout outs. Let's start off with Landon whole Isaiah Lopes Toby Fenderson. I liked that name Toby. Lot of good Toby's in the world. I feel Val curry. Who I feel like I know but I I'm guessing I don't know. Because I

Nick VinZant 47:58

the name is familiar. You don't know a lot of vowels. Yeah, generally, but I feel like I have heard that name before.

John Shull 48:05

Carter Cummings. Cory Rodriguez. Brendan Murphy. Joe DeRay. Susan Perry. And Rob Moser on Alright, let's see a couple of bloggers. Who would you rather be a part of or have by your side in a in a fight? The Power Rangers or the Mighty Ducks?

Nick VinZant 48:35

The Power Rangers they've got super powers. What are the Mighty Ducks gonna be? They're a bunch of children. They're gonna get their ads.

John Shull 48:43

I'm not gonna lie. The I don't know. The question seemed a lot better when I was writing it down.

Nick VinZant 48:48

Yeah. How many children under the age of okay. Do you think how many children seven and under Do you think that you could fight off? You think you could beat 10 children?

John Shull 49:00

Yes.

Nick VinZant 49:02

But but you don't get to like hit one. And then the rest of them get a message. They learn nothing from what happened to their fellow competitors. Right? Like they don't hold back just because you just rocked Little Timmy.

John Shull 49:15

No, I mean, I think by sheer I mean unless unless they're not going to go down easy. Like

Nick VinZant 49:22

you're talking seven year olds man. Now. Okay, so I have a seven year old boy who if I'm not paying attention, he can get me like if I'm kind of were kind of like paying attention. And I'll usually be like down on my knees in the basement or something like wrestling around with them. If I'm focused on the other one, and he'd like bowl charges me and I don't see it. He can knock me down. So a seven year old is capable of taking you down if you're not if you don't see it coming. I'm saying that that's that's you're talking about a 40 to 50 pound person.

John Shull 49:56

I just feel like 10 It would be doable 20 No Oh,

Nick VinZant 50:00

yeah, I don't think he could do 20 I would say tend to. Yeah.

John Shull 50:04

10 I think I think I could do and if you give me a weapon, not a gun, or something like that, but if you give me like a stick, or a chair, I go up to 15.

Nick VinZant 50:14

But here's the other thing, though, dude, are you really just going to haul off and like deck a seven year old? Yeah, like you're gonna just uppercut some, like six year old kid. Like Mortal Kombat?

John Shull 50:25

Yeah, if they're coming at me.

Nick VinZant 50:28

I don't think you could do that. I don't see you got to you got to factor in the fact that you're not gonna be able to go 100%.

John Shull 50:34

I mean, I'm sitting here thinking like, well, 10 of them. If I choke out the first couple, well, then we're down to seven or six. And then if I punch them out, then now

Nick VinZant 50:44

you're not busy, because you're not going to be able to choke them out, right? Because there's nine other ones going to swarm. Yeah. So you got to be it's got to be like, it's got to be quick hits, you got to take them out fast. Are they gonna put you down? I mean, we got to get violent. And I don't know if you could do that with a child.

John Shull 50:58

But now you're talking about stamina too, which is another thing that I don't think people realize.

Nick VinZant 51:04

I think it actually would be about five I think, unless you were really just gonna like, Be ruthless.

John Shull 51:13

I mean, if I'm in comprised five to 10, if I'm in the if I'm in the field of battle, and they know what they're up against, ensure that all bets are off. Now if I'm like at the school playground or something, and Little Timmy is coming up to me, just the horse around no course I'm not gonna throw him into the side of the school than stomp on his chest,

Nick VinZant 51:35

I would say to maybe provide a little bit of context of this. So I have a seven year old and a four year old. And I'll get a little tired. But that's like containing yourself to make sure that you're not like hurting them. But you they they'll get you. I think five is a lot more than you would think. Think five strong seven year olds are gonna give you a little bit trouble.

John Shull 51:59

You know what, I'll just bust out my cell phone, and then then it's over. All eyes.

Nick VinZant 52:05

Distract them. That's how you do you play YouTube videos. And then that's gonna Yeah, there you go. Let's use your use your stuff. Okay. Well, obviously the answer is like, I would rather have the Power Rangers on my side.

John Shull 52:17

Give me like, I tell you, man, give me Goldberg. The bass brothers. I mean, not worried. Elio esta vez

Nick VinZant 52:24

they're gonna get bashed.

John Shull 52:26

Oh boy. I've always thought though that kind of brings up another point to me is that I've always thought the Power Rangers were a little overblown, little overrated.

Nick VinZant 52:37

It's fictional dude. Right? Like, it's a TV show.

John Shull 52:41

Yeah, but they can be overrated, which they are.

Nick VinZant 52:44

It was a big thing for a moment. It was legitimately big like it never carried into I don't think any of the subsequent seasons. And I don't think it ever carried into any of the 15 different offshoots that they had, but they were a big deal when they came out initially. That first season was That was big was a game changer.

John Shull 53:02

Can you name the original five colors of the Rangers?

Nick VinZant 53:07

Black, Yellow, Blue, Red. Green. And then they also had a white one.

John Shull 53:17

I don't know. I don't know if that's right. I feel like there's a pink ranger in there. Or there is

Nick VinZant 53:21

that's the one I forgot pink. Oh, I forgot the pink one.

John Shull 53:25

Well, anyways, let's just move on. Zero getting coffee. And it's September. You know, early September. How do you feel? If someone in front of you order something pumpkin flavored? In the beginning of September too soon, right time?

Nick VinZant 53:44

Oh, my honest answer is I pay no attention to what other people are doing. If that's what you want to get. That's what you're gonna get. Now, if it looks appetizing, to me, that's the only reason I'm not going to be it's not going to change my choice. It's not going to change how I feel about them. And I'm pretty sure that you can kind of tell what somebody is going to order before they get up there. Right? Like if you're ordering a pumpkin spice latte in the beginning of September, September. I know what you look like.

John Shull 54:10

You want to you want to characterize that?

Nick VinZant 54:12

I don't think that I don't think that I need to go into any details. But if you're ordering a pumpkin spice latte in the beginning of September, I know what you look like. I also know that you probably spent a lot of time looking for Taylor Swift tickets.

John Shull 54:27

Well, you're you're really like putting out two huge fan bases there. I will say this about Taylor Swift and the phenomenon that has become her is I didn't get it. But now my foregoing on five year old, has learned some of her songs and will not stop seeing them. And it's just I mean, she she transcends ages. Like her songs are catchy. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 54:53

I think that they are catchy. But I think that ultimately what Taylor Swift does and what that audience ultimately is, is essentially Silly bringing women back to high school.

John Shull 55:02

I mean, I agree to disagree because I feel like that's what the boyband era is for and was for.

Nick VinZant 55:09

But the boy band is more like teenage girls first attraction. That's the big thing about them. Like those are the first boys, that teenage girls really like?

John Shull 55:20

Well, let's stay in the music beat for a second because, okay, we lost, we lost to two musicians within 24 hours. So obviously we're recording this Monday comes out on Wednesday, so it'll be a couple of days old by then. But we love Jimmy Buffett. And we lost the lead singer of Smash Mouth. All within a couple of days of each other, which I know you were a huge Smash Mouth fan.

Nick VinZant 55:47

What is the big Smash Mouth song? I honestly can't think of it. I mean, I know their music, but I don't know what the song is. So they had

John Shull 55:53

they had the I'm actually looking them up because I know they had the Shrek song. I'm a believer. Oh, okay. They had all star. And then they had to walk in on the sun as well, which I think was their first big hit. So anyways, moving on to Jimmy Buffett, I will say this with all due respect to him, because obviously he's passed now. I never understood nor did I like, like his music, I could care less that he was on a boat and played Island songs and I never cared was not for me.

Nick VinZant 56:33

I don't think it's necessarily about his music as much as it's about the experience that he provided and the feeling that he gave the people of just relaxing, having a good time taking life easy. I think his concerts were a lot of fun. I think that that's basically what it really was. It's kind of like the Grateful Dead in some ways, right? Like the concert is an experience and a lifestyle.

John Shull 56:55

That's fair. That's it's actually a great way to sum it up. Listen, I think there's no better way to honor Mr. Buffett

Nick VinZant 57:04

Oh, our way okay, I see as you go then with the within we then with candle of the month I like how you somehow transition from to posthumous famous musicians in the candle of the mind. As if that's okay. All right. So here's it's time. How do we do the horse? Horse, I can never do the horse.

John Shull 57:32

And that's not bad. That's not bad.

Nick VinZant 57:36

candle of the month, the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again.

John Shull 57:42

Someday we're gonna get that like kind

Nick VinZant 57:44

of bored duck in my teeth.

John Shull 57:46

So this one was actually an accident that I stumbled upon. A coworker of mine gave me this and said that they didn't want it. No, it was on the candles. And I said, Okay, well, I'll take it. And I lit it up about a week ago. And I'm absolutely in love with it until I found out how much it costs. But if you can get over the price tag, what it is, I think you'll enjoy it. So nest New York is the company. The candle is pumpkin Chai classic candle. That's the name of it. Obviously, I went through I don't want to say a cold spell last week here in Michigan, but it was like, you know, 70s During the day got into the low 50s at night. It was like 95 today by the way, that doesn't matter. So I was like you know what, I'm gonna bust out I'm gonna bust out this candle and check it out. See what it's up to. Just amazing. Just there it was fall in my house for a week. And then obviously I'm like well now it's 90 degrees again today we're in the air conditioning. So I'm gonna tone it down a bit but two things I like about this candle which it's a little different for me one it's only the classic. It's only the the it's a two wick but supposedly going to last for 8080 hours 60 to 80 hours to all I don't know about that. I don't know I don't know whether 80 hours.

The other thing is the presentation like the little glass container it's in is really cool. And I'm actually kind of excited. One of the things I actually do is if I have some leftover wax from other candles is that combine the candles and make them into you know, re refurbished candles, whatever you want to call them. So I'm looking for the glass the glass is cool. However, I say all this I looked up the price of the classic which is what I what I have. And it's $48 just for the candle. Oh, so you're probably looking at 60 bucks including shipping, which is a lot. But if you can get over that. It really is a fantastic handle. And like I said I got mine just kind of by accident because the person didn't want it. I would have gladly pay paid for it and I maybe I will in the future for other candles from this company. But yeah, it's it's awesome reminded reminded me a fall you know fake fall until we got back to summer here so

Nick VinZant 1:00:15

so let's just call it a $50 candle. Now how many hours are usually going to like get out of a 50 hour candle what I'm asking you basically is like that's a long burn 80 hours. Is that ultimately worth it though? Like yeah, you're paying a little bit more but you're getting a little bit more to

John Shull 1:00:31

well I mean it's yeah, it's definitely worth it however, I think like even I've become accustomed to a lot of these candle companies, not the ones on Etsy not like the creative candle makers they'll call them but you know, the the companies like Target Bed Bath and Beyond, etc. I know it's hard to keep a straight face. I mean, they have deals, so you can get three for 20 right or you can get you know, 330 whatever. So yeah, but once again, I mean, they say like doing doing a little research on the burn time they say like a three wick can last you up to 100 hours. A luxury, which costs $190 will last $120 Now listen.

Nick VinZant 1:01:18

I knew it. I knew this. I knew this was going to happen eventually.

John Shull 1:01:22

What

Nick VinZant 1:01:24

your snobbery has now gone into the candles. Now. You can't get just did like a three for 20. Now John's not happy unless it's a $50 candle you snobbery has gone into candles.

John Shull 1:01:36

Well, obviously the three weeks or three weeks the luxury is a four wick. The classic is, like I said it's a one or two. It looks like here at least from one of the picture I was looking at from the different candles can also get a votive or bo t which is a smaller version for 20 bucks that has about a 30 hour burn time, which is probably good enough, you know, probably good enough for most people but

Nick VinZant 1:02:03

and this is the time of the show. I would like to remind people that Yes, John has had sex at least twice. He does have two children despite his massive candle knowledge. He has been intimate with a woman before which is I'm not sure they ever have any just did they have any chair? Do they have any candles that are just like one simple thing like, pumpkin, Apple? Or is it all fancy stuff? Is it all just fancy names? I mean, rush.

John Shull 1:02:34

I mean if I mean at this company, everything's pretty fancy. I mean, most of them are fancy, I guess. I mean, like some of the you know you have Moroccan Amber, Autumn plum. You know, amalfi lemon and mint. I mean, that just makes me want to buy it. Just the name alone.

Nick VinZant 1:02:57

Hmm. Did you also hold back a little bit of a vomit burp just a second ago?

John Shull 1:03:03

And has been a pretty fun day in my household. So yes, I am.

Nick VinZant 1:03:06

Hello. Okay. All right. Well, I saw that.

John Shull 1:03:09

I'm holding down barbecue and liquor and beer and I think I'm doing a great job, though.

Nick VinZant 1:03:16

Oh, you had barbecues? You put ketchup on it?

John Shull 1:03:18

No, I did not. This was just basic hamburgers, hot dogs. Which of course why would I put ketchup on?

Nick VinZant 1:03:27

The I don't call bar hamburgers and hot dogs barbecue. Okay, that's not barbecue. You're trying to class things up? I'm not. I am better than hot dogs is not barbecue to cook out. All right. Don't try to class it up and say it's barbecue.

John Shull 1:03:41

What's the difference between a barbecue and a cookout? They're the same thing. If

Nick VinZant 1:03:45

if you don't know I can't explain it to you. All right, anybody? Do it master. Anybody who's a real pitmaster knows the difference. Cook out man. That's just having some fun. You're having some people over. You're having some hamburgers, hot dogs, maybe wings. If you're gonna know a barbecue that's talking about putting a pig in the ground. Maybe you're having some brisket. You're having like some rack of lamb, a shoulder or something like that. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. You're the guy who's supposed to be a barbecue person. You should know these things.

John Shull 1:04:15

It's I think the classification of the Hangout. It doesn't matter to me. It's a barbecue. Wow. Yeah, whatever.

Nick VinZant 1:04:24

I would expect that from a casual fan.

John Shull 1:04:27

I also bought a slip in salary expect that kind of stuff.

Nick VinZant 1:04:30

Did you really did you go on this live inside? No, I was

John Shull 1:04:34

it was a little kid one when I was actually kind of put off by it because it wasn't as the kids loved it, but I was like this doesn't seem like if I was to go on it. I would slide down the end.

Nick VinZant 1:04:47

How much did you pay for?

John Shull 1:04:51

Clearance? I got it for $4

Nick VinZant 1:04:54

Well, no. Yeah, dude, you got a Ford on the slip and slide. What did you think there's gonna launch him into space?

John Shull 1:05:00

It was 75% I mean, it's a decent slip at this from the company that makes slip and slides.

Nick VinZant 1:05:04

Still only $16 If it's 75% off, I think if that math is correct, right, like, what are you expecting?

John Shull 1:05:12

Do you know how many slip insides they sell a year? Okay, they can put them at $16.

Nick VinZant 1:05:18

Yeah, but still, like I'm not really expecting a lot. I would think a slip and slide needs to be in the 50 to $100 range. If you're really like expecting to like go somewhere with it. Just get a tarp. Just get a tarp and hose it down. It's the same thing maybe a little bit more dangerous, but the kids can heal.

John Shull 1:05:37

Well, he's from Kansas.

Nick VinZant 1:05:38

I put him up, man. toughen him up. Right, right. Alright, are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 1:05:43

I'm feeling snacky and a little bit tacky.

Nick VinZant 1:05:48

Okay, our top five is top five snacks. Actually, it's top fives types of snacks, not individual snacks, right? We're not going to go through 20 Different kinds of chips. That can be a different one. We're doing top five types of snacks to number five

John Shull 1:06:03

seeds, like sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, you know, those types of things?

Nick VinZant 1:06:10

No, it's a waste of time. That's a waste the seeds are a waste of everybody's time. Seeds is the thing like Why Why would you eat seeds? Let's not even a snack like Oh, I'm gonna fill up on these pumpkin seeds and 40,000 of them

John Shull 1:06:24

well it's a snack so you're not I'm not trying to get necessarily filled up and you can spend two to three hours snacking on a handful of sunflower Well, I mean some people can't but either way they they're a longevity snack and it's it's not they're not terrible for you. And it's it's good man seeds seeds are super fun like you know if you can properly seed it's a good it's fun.

Nick VinZant 1:06:53

It's too much work right see to me is just like that's the what if are we doing top five worst snacks because there I would agree with seeds on there. Right like number one. You don't get anything out of them and you got to put in way too much effort. It's just a terrible that's a die.

John Shull 1:07:09

Oh can like somebody that has never properly seated a sunflower before?

Nick VinZant 1:07:13

Oh, yeah. See? That's what I'm talking about. That's

John Shull 1:07:19

that did sound snobby. You are correct. You

Nick VinZant 1:07:21

don't even know how to see the sunflower. Right. You know all the lingo but apparently don't know the difference between a barbecue and a cookout.

John Shull 1:07:26

You were right. That sounded snobby. You were right. That was

Nick VinZant 1:07:31

really snobby. It was like a level nine. A nine. That's probably it's pretty. You were pretty high up there. Right? You got a t shirt that's talking about seating you got to sneak seat and convention later. You can go on to your Facebook page that you all have talked about splitting it up the left side of your mouth versus the right side. This whole discussion what's your

John Shull 1:07:49

number five for your face gets

Nick VinZant 1:07:51

cheese puffs. Cheese puffs, keep it with the people. Give me a big tub of cheese puffs, the kind that you can get, like ridiculous at the grocery store for $7.

John Shull 1:08:04

But I think of cheese puffs and chips as the same thing.

Nick VinZant 1:08:09

Well, they're not. Okay. All right. No one would ever be like, Hey, do you have any chips? And you're like, Yeah, and you just bring out cheese puffs. Now you'd like to know I got the puffs, or not chips, the puffs, different thing? Right? If I asked for chips and you bring me popcorn, it's not the same thing. What's your number four.

John Shull 1:08:31

So number four is ice cream.

Nick VinZant 1:08:34

I don't really consider that to be a snack. And if you did consider that to be a snag. It's certainly not number four.

John Shull 1:08:42

Yeah, it's at number four. It's it's I mean, list. Okay, fine. Ice cream. Yogurt, frozen yogurt. I can I mean whatever. frozen treats. I guess maybe it's my number four. But I'm thinking predominantly think of ice cream is a snack. It's dessert. No dessert is a dessert. Ice cream is a snack.

Nick VinZant 1:09:05

How much you weigh now? Well, well, right, let's move on. Ah, my number four. I don't personally really care for these. Right? I don't personally care for it. But I think they have to be acknowledged and that's the impact of mixed nuts. A lot of people like mixed nuts.

John Shull 1:09:30

I mean, that essentially was my number five just without the nuts seeds. This Yeah, they're in mixed nuts.

Nick VinZant 1:09:40

They're not mixed nuts does not usually contain seeds. And if it does, it's not the kind of mixed nuts that I'm buying. Keep those little things out of my mixed nuts. I want big nuts. Only the biggest nuts go in nice mouth.

I only want big nuts in my mouth. If you got little nuts, put them in somebody else's mouth. I want the biggest nuts in my mouth to bagel cashews. Just fill up these cheeks with nuts.

John Shull 1:10:17

Okay, my number three.

Nick VinZant 1:10:20

Oh, that's my number three two is popcorn. I agree. I think that's the appropriate place for popcorn.

John Shull 1:10:26

Kinda with what you said for your nut nut choice. I mean, I don't mind popcorn popcorn is okay. I mean, it deserves to be on a snack list. But I'm kind of, you know, obligatorily putting it in at number I think popcorn

Nick VinZant 1:10:42

and that number three is like exactly where it should be. I have one really good popcorn that I really enjoyed, but it gets stuck in your teeth. And fucking drives me crazy, man. Right.

John Shull 1:10:56

All right, my number two is pizza rolls. Oh god.

Nick VinZant 1:11:01

I do love fucking pizza rolls. Yeah, those are good. Okay, those are good. I got nothing bad to say against pizza rolls. From for no problem with pizza. All right. My my number two is chips.

John Shull 1:11:13

Okay, my. I actually don't have chips on my top five.

Nick VinZant 1:11:18

You don't have chips on your top five snacks.

John Shull 1:11:23

I don't and I think that just because I don't eat a lot of chips. I mean, I do like chips. But when I when I eat them, it's usually with a barbecue.

Nick VinZant 1:11:33

Okay. Are you sure you're having a cookout?

John Shull 1:11:38

I have them at a cookout, slash barbecue slash hanging out whatever you want to call it. My number one are like snack crackers like cheese. It's Triscuits I don't know what the proper term is for them. Maggots crack. I'm

Nick VinZant 1:11:54

not gonna put but that we I'm not gonna put like Wheat Thin or Triscuit in there at all. Like, those aren't necessarily very good. Cheese. It is so good. Really a chip. But I know it's technically a cracker, but it's more like chip based. It's

John Shull 1:12:08

it's a cracker man. It's an oven baked crap. But

Nick VinZant 1:12:11

I don't think of cheese. It's the same way that I think of Triscuits if somebody's like, Hey, do you Would you like some cheese? It's like, yeah, of course. And they come back with Triscuits or Wheat Thins and be like, this isn't the same thing.

John Shull 1:12:25

I mean, like I also not that I put this in number one for this reason, but like Oreos could be considered a cracker. I think that because there's two sides.

Nick VinZant 1:12:34

Dude. Come on. Now. There's two sides to every cracker cookie. There's two sides to everything ship has to get here and it's a cookie. It's a cookie. Definitely. My number one is trail mix. I love trail. chocolate in there, man. Especially if you go like m&ms trail mix.

John Shull 1:12:52

The only problem that I have with a trail mix is kind of like your thing with the nuts. Is is the nuts take over. And all you want really is the m&ms or the chocolate or the raisins or the Craisins. And you get more nuts than you do anything else. Some

Nick VinZant 1:13:09

good trail mix, man. You've got to find better trail mix. It's a more proportionate mix. Like you're getting too much trail not enough mix.

John Shull 1:13:17

Tell Costco to up their game.

Nick VinZant 1:13:19

Oh yeah, you gotta get better stuff then man go to like a grocery store. Just look at one. How are you buying $70 candles, but you won't like pay an extra dollar for good trail mix.

John Shull 1:13:34

That's how I can afford well. Those candles is because I save a buck here there and eat McDonald's. Your wife

Nick VinZant 1:13:41

ever had to be like, John, we got to cut back on candles this week. And you're like No. Only like she's like it's part of the budget. Is it in the budget? Is candles? And is there a line for candles in the monthly show budget?

John Shull 1:13:57

No, no, there was only one time where she questioned me and it was right after we started doing the segment on the regular and I went a little nuts and I bought like nine or 10 candles from about six different companies. And they all arrived within like three days of each other and she was like, Are you getting paid for this? Like what's happening here? I was like, No, I just I just love

Nick VinZant 1:14:19

cannabis like two or $300 with the candles.

John Shull 1:14:23

A lot of candles just

Unknown Speaker 1:14:25

like you're doing

John Shull 1:14:30

let's see what Yeah, I actually have a lot of beef jerky.

Nick VinZant 1:14:36

I go back and forth on beef jerky. I don't think it's a top 10 Snack personally, but I do I'll eat it

John Shull 1:14:44

this is probably under candy but I felt like candy was so broad. So I put gummy bears down.

Nick VinZant 1:14:51

Yeah, do you that's a candy.

John Shull 1:14:53

Yeah, but like, I don't know,

Nick VinZant 1:14:57

candy. Did anybody actually want

John Shull 1:15:00

granola bars, fruit,

Nick VinZant 1:15:03

I can do granola. Now granola can be a good one.

John Shull 1:15:07

My personal favorite out of all of these decisions however, I knew you were going to argue if it was a snack or not, and I didn't want to fight you on it or try to debate you and that is charcuterie.

Nick VinZant 1:15:22

I don't actually know what that is. Is that meats and cheeses? Yes, if it's charcuterie, right, like if it's got its own label, just like with ice cream, it's ice cream. It's not a snack. Right? Like chips or snack?

John Shull 1:15:35

Nuts or snack? salty nuts more salty.

Nick VinZant 1:15:38

Ah, lick them. I'd lick those nuts if I could. If I can't eat it, I'll just lick them. Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the best snacks. Trail mix is my jam, man. I've whoo hoo. I mean, I could I could. I could go through a giant bag of that a day. If you know health would allow it. Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really does help us out. Doesn't have to be some big thing. Just a couple of quick words and let us know what you think are the best snacks. i MAN i would i would go through a bag of trail mix a day, if not two or three. If I could. I don't understand why John thinks ice cream is a snack like ice cream is not a snack.

Luxury Watch Wholesaler Moshe Haimoff

Moshe Haimoff is known as the Watch King of New York City. He travels the world buying and selling luxury watches worth millions of dollars. We talk watch wholesaling, how to spot a counterfeit watch and why watches are soaring in value. Then, we countdown a special “wet” Top 5.

Moshe Haimoff: 01:11

Pointless: 27:47

Top 5: 40:13

Contact the Show

Moshe Haimoff Website

Moshe Haimoff Instagram

Interview with Moshie Haimoff - The Watch King of New York City

Nick VinZant 0:00

Hi welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode watches and water.

Moshe Haimoff 0:20

That's what I did shifted my business one day I just left the diamond business directly to watch. They got really good and making knockoff really, really good but there's always at one thing that they can't get right, Patek 6300 G Tube point 1 million I bought it back then today it's worth like 3.5

Nick VinZant 0:43

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is the watch king of New York City. This is Watch wholesaler Marcia Haim off, how did you become the watch King, what got you into watches

Moshe Haimoff 1:13

I was doing was doing diamonds for many years hadn't had I had an infatuation for watches, like collecting them buying them. And then about 13 years ago, had an opportunity to buy a watch on eBay and flip it and buy it again and flip it and then I left the diamond business went straight into watches and started doing it full time ever since.

Nick VinZant 1:40

So that's really how you got started just flipping watches on eBay,

Moshe Haimoff 1:43

I was buying them off eBay for myself and flipping them for a profit. So that's what I saw. I was I would so basically what my main business was before watches was, I used to go to India every month buy diamonds, and sell them to wholesale to retailers. But I'm the wholesaler so I would sell them and then wait 60 days to get paid. And then I saw the watch business next to our watches as a hobby, you know, go on eBay, buy a watch, I liked it, somebody offered me a couple of dollars profit, I would sell it. And I saw that it was cod we call it in our business, which is you get paid on delivery, cash on delivery, it's not really cash. It's usually wire or whatever. But that's what's called cod. That's our term. So I saw as a better opportunity to get my money right away and keep on rotating on a small margin then go to the diamond business where I had to wait 60 days to get paid from the vendor. That's what I did. I shifted my business one day, I just left the diamond business directly to watch.

Nick VinZant 2:45

So like when you talk about margins, right, like you're buying a watch for this much. You're selling a watch for this much are you are we talking kind of nickel and dimes dollars and cents? Are you talking like I'm buying this for 100? I'm selling it for a

Moshe Haimoff 2:59

knockout. So you buy for 1000 the seller for 1100. So I can buy a watch, let's say a submariner for 12,000 seller for 12,500. But it's instant Bracy if you make five to 7% It's

Nick VinZant 3:15

Wow, that seems like an intense business.

Moshe Haimoff 3:18

Intense, but it's amazing. They say he get a rush. It's like a it's like a gambler, you know, always chasing that 21.

Nick VinZant 3:27

So like then, like how many watches are you buying and selling a day, a week, a month

Moshe Haimoff 3:33

between three to 500 a month. So I travel overseas every two weeks. I buy my merchandise there come back to America unloaded to all of the retailers

Nick VinZant 3:44

and go back and forth. Where are you generally getting them from?

Moshe Haimoff 3:47

Middle East China? That's mostly my main two locations.

Nick VinZant 3:55

So then what's it like getting on a plane with like, 500? No,

Moshe Haimoff 3:57

we don't do that we ship them. So we ship them via brakes Ferrari because we gotta be customs, right? So we ship them through, like you know those armored trucks. So via brakes, let's see Malcolm me, which are used mostly or breaks, we ship them. And then it goes to customs, we pay customs they will lease the package to us. And that's how we get we never traveled any merchandise. First of all dangerous Second of all, I can travel into customs and they could see it. But it's a long process. You got to go to the CBP and you gotta go see a special agent it could take two three hours. So I just ship them literally takes by ship on Friday. I'll get him Monday.

Nick VinZant 4:38

Is it a lot of work all the time? Or is it something that you ultimately just kind of get used to the hustle, it's

Moshe Haimoff 4:44

mental mental stress, right? Every business has stress some have physical labor, some mental labor, so our brains are constantly working. So 24 hours a day I can be sleeping but my bed is gonna work and my phone was always next to me so I don't miss a deal right so guy bothers me what a while I'll wake up answer. Go back to sleep and wait for the buzz.

Nick VinZant 5:04

What is it about watches? What do you like about them so much.

Moshe Haimoff 5:07

So as men, we don't have girls have their bags, right? Their bag, their diamond rings and their jewelry. We don't have much our hobbies, our cars and watches. Basically it's a status. The watch you wear as the status

Nick VinZant 5:21

of a person. That's true. Now were you a collector before you got into the business? Yeah, not really

Moshe Haimoff 5:26

a real collect, I was more of like a, like a hobby seller buy a gold watch or buy a steel watch some certain type of model and whatever. Wherever for a couple of weeks. Somebody would like it. Offer me providence. That's what I will do.

Nick VinZant 5:42

Are there a lot of people that are doing this? Oh, yeah. All right. You want to

Moshe Haimoff 5:45

come to 40 cemetery diamond district in New York. Everybody's buys and sells watches but very few do wholesale what I do I travel overseas, come back, unload and go back again.

Nick VinZant 5:55

So who are you mainly selling them to? Are you selling them to read retail outlets? Like,

Moshe Haimoff 5:59

no, I sell, I sell jewelry stores?

Nick VinZant 6:02

How come you don't sell that?

Moshe Haimoff 6:03

I'm starting that right now. So we have a big presence online via Chrono 24, which we started COVID. And we do a lot of like online and direct to consumer, but it's it's more of a relationship. When you sell to a consumer to a customer, it's like a marriage. You know, so it's, I'm finally up. till about a year ago, I was a one man operation. Two is all my own. Now I have like a whole team. And we have to be now we opened three retail locations on 14th century, we have one in Hong Kong, and we have another one in the Middle East and Dubai. One in Miami, one in LA. So we're we finally branched out retail. I have people working so I can still do the travel. So now what we do is we try to give the retailer a wholesale price.

Nick VinZant 6:55

And selling like three or four, three to 500 watches a month. That's enough for three separate that's just a

Moshe Haimoff 7:01

wholesale department. Then we have a whole retail department which we sell more on there.

Nick VinZant 7:05

When you kind of go to buy a watch, like what are you looking for? How do you know, which is the ones that are going to sell? How do you know what what are the good ones? That kind of stuff?

Moshe Haimoff 7:13

Very, very good question. So each each country has its own market. So for example, the Arabs can't wear gold and allowed to wear gold. So we buy the gold from there like the gold president the Rolex is. So that's our market. Asians like the Sport models like the submariners and the Pepsi's and the Batman's as their market. Our market we're big Americans are a little bigger Bill bigger, so they like 41 like big watches. 41 millimeter, 42 millimeter 44 millimeter. So you already know, what are you buying? Which watch goes where?

Nick VinZant 7:51

And it's pretty standard right there. Right? Like they don't really deviate too much from the past? No,

Moshe Haimoff 7:56

very few you'll have a guy or a gal come and ask for something you haven't heard like a year but it's very, very rare.

Nick VinZant 8:03

Now when we get to it right? When are these? I'll just use this word. I don't know if this is the right word, but are these knockoffs? Are these the

Moshe Haimoff 8:10

100% legit?

Nick VinZant 8:13

The 100 How do you kind of make sure that

Moshe Haimoff 8:15

you can tell by feeling it? The way it is different? The look is different. You know, they got really good and making knockoffs. Really, really good. But it's always at one thing that they can get right. But I've been three times I've been I bought some legit. dealers that didn't even know there was knockoff. But of course, how it works is that if you buy from somebody, you know they take responsibility. So if something happens to the law, that it's a knockoff, I go back to him. And he refunded me my money. How did you find out that it was so I have a service center up here. We do polishing services, everything. So I when I bought it, I bought it back home and I told my guy to help my watchmaker to open it. So you open the watch, he told me the watch is a knockoff because when you buy there, it's like going to a grocery store, right? Just pick and choose where you want. You pay for it because it's reputable dealer. So you know tomorrow the problem if you can always go back to a solid good guy, you met one time and he's gone. People you constantly do business with so you just pick and pick and pick, pick, pick and choose. Put in a bag, ship it. And then when you come home, you figure out what the stakes are what you made or where you didn't make

Nick VinZant 9:29

it when you have kind of one that's maybe a knock off or isn't working. Right, right. And it's like, do you chalk it up to the kind of that's all right, that's the cost of doing business like that's going to happen when you're in this business, or is it kind of like a big deal in the industry like people are you you've broken an unwritten rule?

Moshe Haimoff 9:45

So very good question. Sometimes people don't know they're selling knockoffs. People think it's real they buy from a client. You know, they don't have a watchmaker on hand. The watch looks okay to the naked eye. Right? Because what makes it real, you got to check the movie Another watch. But so they don't know. That's why it's very important you buy a watch from somebody reputable who's going to take responsibility if something goes wrong,

Nick VinZant 10:09

when you look at watches this kind of a whole, are they more popular now than they were a few years ago? Are they rising in popularity going down about the same? Where do you think watches are in popularity right now,

Moshe Haimoff 10:21

they're huge right now. So let's say 70 years ago, you can go to roloc store and they will beg you to buy their merchandise for 30% of retail Submariner, let's say Beatles, 9800, they'll tell you take it for seven grand. Today, they're gonna put you on a waiting list. And you have to buy X, Y, Z in order to get that Submariner at retail, he can't even get a discount. Now the consumer doesn't he's smart to watch it's worth $5,000 overreach on the gray market and sell it to me, then I'll sell it to another guy. So the demand is in seen right now.

Nick VinZant 10:56

Why do you think that is like what changed?

Moshe Haimoff 10:59

I guess people have more money. I think supply and demand I think because it's harder the Rolex became smart like you know, when you go to her MS, they make you wait on line to get in to spend five grand Could you ever imagine you gotta wait online to spend $5,000 at a store, they should open the red carpet give you champagne, you know beg you to come in but no, wait a line, wait your turn. What a Chanel they ask you to get an appointment. So Rolex is doing the cutting out. A lot of mom and pop stores which there are authorized dealers, and leaving it as boutique only. So it's very hard to get a watch. This guest ceramic Daytona, we tell it's $14,000. In our market, it's double the retail price.

Nick VinZant 11:43

So are on most of them are on most of the watches that you're buying and selling Are you making, you know, single digit percentage points, like five to 10 Are there some were like, I can mark this up 50%.

Moshe Haimoff 11:54

If I buy a watch, like you mark it up 100% Rolex won't sell to me, I'm banned from every Rolex store. So if I come in with my ID, they'll say no, because they know I'm a gray market seller. So they won't sell to me saying that the higher the watch value is, the margins will climb a little more. But let's see the wash is 100 grand. If you make 10 grand, you're happy. Sometimes you'll you'll buy a watch for 100 grand it sold for 105,000. That's okay. You get money right away, even 100 somebody comes to me says here's 103 for this watch. Give it to me right now. You're getting money right away, I will sell it even though I'm making 3%. But my money comes back into me so I can play with the money.

Nick VinZant 12:31

But is it? Is it a system where people who are maybe in it? Like if you have a slow month, can the whole thing collapse?

Moshe Haimoff 12:40

doesn't collapse because you're doing it the right way? Right. It's like a car. It became a commodity these watches. I know it's a luxury. It makes no sense. But there were there was a time last year doing COVID Where we went COVID the market went up like crazy. And the watch has dropped by 60% in a matter of two months. You hold on tight. You take your losses and you move on. By now it's summer season, it's slow. June, July, August, September slow. What do you mean slow? To July, August, sorry, slow means that there's not as much action because now September is coming. It's holiday season and it's Valentine's Day, then there's tax season. But then after tax season, May time everybody's in camp vacation. It's kind of slow, but people still buying it just not as much as

Nick VinZant 13:32

that's, you know, pretty much some of the basic questions that we had. Are you ready for some hardware slash listener submitting Of course, Best Value brand worst value brand?

Moshe Haimoff 13:44

Rolex is the best value brand. The word value brand. You mean resale value?

Nick VinZant 13:51

Yeah, I would say just in terms of somebody's gonna buy it right. Like I'm looking to get a watch what's probably like, you know, I don't know anything about watches. I only know a little bit about cars, but like, you know, maybe you don't really want to go with a Pontiac.

Moshe Haimoff 14:04

Well, Rolex is the best value for your money. So it's Rolex EP, Patek. RM is like the Lamborghini of watches is Richard mill. That's a Lamborghini watching protec is like the Ferrari, and you have AP Rolex. Then you have the watches that you get good value for your money, but you can never sell them. Unfortunately, I'm gonna say that I don't want to but it's like Yeager Breitling do blow beautiful arches. Tannerite cheap watches for the money for four granite panoramic, get a beautiful watch versus someone wears that watch and the expandable beautiful panorama is four or 5000 Rolex or four or 5000 you get an old ladies D just but unfortunately there's no resale value on the panorama or the you blow or the Breitling like the reason. Basically you will get a discount 30 or 35% off the roll if you have to. Be over retail right there it shows you the difference between the two brands

Nick VinZant 15:03

is that just because one's just more in demand and the other one like it's maybe not a better quality it's just like people want rice

Moshe Haimoff 15:11

I don't think it's a better quality I think it's more in demand I think it's more in demand people want Rolex more it's like a thing of status right?

Nick VinZant 15:19

Which an underrated brand like a one that you would say like, oh, people don't really know about this yet.

Moshe Haimoff 15:23

No, people know about it. I think it's as beautiful watches as you blog. I think it's very underrated. I don't know why. It's not popping off like you but looks like EP just a different name. You can have the same watch in the you blow. But if it's an AP, it's 400 grand. And if it's you blow it's 15,000 just for the name on the watch looks exactly the same. For the money. Like, if you buy a $15,000 rose gold, you blow and then Rolex 15 grand, you can barely buy an older Submariner, which is stainless steel.

Nick VinZant 15:57

What's the most expensive watch you've ever bought?

Moshe Haimoff 16:00

Patek 6300 G 2.1 million I bought it back then. Today it's worth like 3.5

Nick VinZant 16:10

Do you remember it? Do you remember what you sold it for? 2.8 That's a nice 500 grand right 700

Moshe Haimoff 16:16

We were two partners. Yeah, I bought it in 2007 2018

Nick VinZant 16:22

What's that like? Drop in two point something million on a watch.

Moshe Haimoff 16:26

I feel accomplished you can say it's fulfilling it's exciting excited because it's a gamble it's a rush you don't know if you're gonna sell it how much you're gonna sell it for right now. It's a lot of money in the watch. Tomorrow the market drops What are you gonna do? How fast can you get out of it right so before I buy something I have in mind certain buyers who are going to buy it and then I have my outfits in case they don't buy it if I dump it how much am I going to lose

Nick VinZant 16:52

two watches I would you say that like you know cars like tend to depreciate in value right like do watches generally as a whole tend to appreciate No it's

Moshe Haimoff 17:01

it's it's it's it won't depreciate as much as a car because Washington has have valued sentimental value some habit from father to son some habit. Some habit as a gift some habits people like it more I'm saying that. The past three years it went up now now to study but the biowatch 400 Granny homes 30,000 selling you like your solar car. Right? You buy a car for 100 grand you want to start a new leader okay, you get 70,000 65,000 a lot you buy for 100 grand your word. If you bought at the right time, either you're gonna make a couple 1000 or you lose a couple of dollars. But it's not like a huge reframe. Unless it was COVID people bought watches for 900,003 There were 250 There's one large RM 65 Or one like it came out it traded for 900 grand today I wouldn't buy for 300 people bought it for 900,000 That's a hair but that's during COVID Now it's everything is stable. So everything sells everything sells everything. So basically buy Rolex today for 20,000 you can sell it tomorrow for 22 If you buy it right, what's your personal favorite one? RM 11 rosegold I actually have it I have it downstairs if you guys want to see it. What do

Nick VinZant 18:21

you think is kind of what do you think is the next big thing in washers? What do you see coming?

Moshe Haimoff 18:25

A woman wearing men's sizes? I see a lot of woman wearing 41 millimeters 40 millimeters a lot of them he started wearing bigger watches how come What do you think that was trend now that's the trend woman one like they were a lot of gold but bigger ones back then these to have the 26 millimeter small ones for ladies very dainty. So we still have those demos and you have the ones who want to have the bigger like flashier look so they have the 4041 millimeters 39 millimeter and AP 38 millimeter and VP see that a woman wearing bigger sizes now.

Nick VinZant 19:00

Do you see another country is kind of becoming an emerging market either for selling or buying

Moshe Haimoff 19:07

Hong Kong in China? China actually China is the the daddy of the watch business as you can see. They control

Nick VinZant 19:18

the market because of demand or because of supply oh it's country without

Moshe Haimoff 19:23

on how many billion people they all love everybody in China where's the rowlock from the guy who the street vendor to the CEO of a company they all wear Rolexes when I was there every time I go there anybody everybody and anybody girl guy doesn't matter the overalls. That's like the number one thing

Nick VinZant 19:43

that's crazy that it's such a luxury here and there. It's like a cast exactly

Moshe Haimoff 19:47

was exactly what you just said it's a Casio for them. Everybody it's something I never saw in my life. And they were only still watching

Nick VinZant 19:56

is one type more popular the other like if it's steel versus Over verse.

Moshe Haimoff 20:01

So the steel to toe their steel, there's two tone roles to turn yellow, yellow gold, rose gold, platinum white gold. Which one's kind of a big deal. China likes a steel Sport models, which is like Submariner GMTs. Milgauss is whatever. Americans like the dangers that they did, which are the rose gold, yellow gold, platinum. Then they have the Wall Street people like to protect the lead the steel wants. So basically Wall Street people are not flashy. So they'll wear a white gold watch or a steel watch. It's worth a lot of money. So why go platinum is, you know, it's like driving a turbos, right? You're a car guy. For me, I had that car. It's the best kind of job in my life. The exotic 911 Turbo as I think puts a Lamborghini to shame a Ferrari. But people look at it think it's a Carrera, but it's not as turbo as so if you know, you know, that's Wall Street. They were platinum was 450,000. But to the eye it looks like it's stainless steel watch.

Nick VinZant 21:00

Yeah, that's the thing when you really got money. You don't show it. Except for the people who really know that it's

Moshe Haimoff 21:07

exact. That's what platinum and why gold is for. Then you have the rappers who wear the gold watches the blinged out watches the whole diamond encrusted will take a $300,000 watch. I sit down with 30 carats of diamonds which make the watch laters worth nothing but they do it anyway because they don't care. They don't do it on steel. They do it on gold.

Nick VinZant 21:27

Who do What celebrity do you think has the best watch game?

Moshe Haimoff 21:30

They all do? Drake as nice collect JC JC has the reverse of the railroad Patrick's and Rolex is an apt I've ever seen. And a good friend of mine sells to him very, very good friend of mine. He sells to all these watches. And it's amazing what he buys. Amazing. He has a watch. It's worth 2 million if an RM is worth three, 4 million. He has a protective for three, 4 million. But it's rare. It's like now like everybody has it. You won't see and you won't see by many.

Nick VinZant 22:03

What's your best negotiating tip.

Moshe Haimoff 22:07

My best negotiating tip. Never give you never offer. Never give somebody an offer on their on their watch. For example. If you come to me and say I have this Submariner, how much would you pay, I'll never give you an offer. Because that's negotiating gets myself. Let's say you want $5,000 For the watch. But it's worth seven. So me, I'll give you six. But let's say you want five. So I'm negotiating basically shooting myself in the leg, because I can get it for cheaper. So what I do is I ask you for your price first. And then from there we negotiate.

Nick VinZant 22:45

Silence is the best negotiation favorite. My

Moshe Haimoff 22:48

favorite slogan is your watch your price. Come to me to sell. It's your watch your price. Don't ask me what I would pay.

Nick VinZant 22:54

Like how much okay, but if you're kind of haggling over prices to use a word that my mother loved, like, how much negotiation generally is taking place? Right? Are you sitting there going back and forth for like, ever? Or is it just like 200 302 50? Done Right? Or how does the least

Moshe Haimoff 23:11

liberal points buy us? That's our that's what I do. I flip points, his price, my price, if we're close, let's say we're 1000 miles apart. Let's see you a 112. I want I want to be loving, and we can't get to common grounds. I said, Listen, we can do either 10 Five, or whatever. 11 Five, or we flip 11 and 12. What do you want to do? Most 80% of people will flip 20% Well just take the middle ground. Me I would always flip if I had the choice. It's fun to use more action. It's more exciting.

Nick VinZant 23:45

But when you get to that kind of price negotiation, right. Like, are you generally in a circumstance where you're getting like, okay, this person is getting screwed? This person's getting a great deal, or is it kind of like everybody's fine at the end of the day? Does that make sense? Right? Like, are you when you do a negotiation? Is it usually like, Man, I really got that guy. Or he really got me or is it kind of like, yeah, that's a pretty good price for that. Like, do you ultimately feel like you get to about where it's about what's

Moshe Haimoff 24:16

basically it's a balance, right? So a person who's selling you a watch knows what he has. He did the research online, he knows what it's worth to value will come to me and say I saw it online for this price. But that itself, no. So that means it's not worth that price. That's my upper hand because every time they say they saw a watch for 15,000 I said it is still online for sale yet. That means it's not the price. You know, but they know what they have is they know what it's worth. He did their homework. So you can never get it. Like yes, I got him because they do their homework before they come. So this city, it's a win win for both. He gets out of his watch. I get to watch it. I want to buy this. He's who was the coin toss of the price.

Nick VinZant 24:58

So the last time that I shared with me was like 1.2 million followers on Instagram and across different social media platforms and even surprised that people have been so interested in this

Moshe Haimoff 25:09

very so what happened was I used people saw I'm a wholesaler flipper used to come to videos by me buying watches for me all the time and everywhere I wanted to like you. Oh, I saw you on this guy. I saw you here. I saw you there. I saw you here. So you there. Say no, let me show people now what I do. works from my side.

Nick VinZant 25:28

Since you've kind of cuz you've kind of used the word like risen to popularity, right? Have you seen more people kind of trying to get into the game see more

Moshe Haimoff 25:36

people coming to buy? I see more retailers like customers coming to buy from me directly. I've seen young kids coming. I tried to help them all. Yesterday, I had a 12 year old kid by me. He came I helped him a little bit. The other day I had another kid what was 14 year old kid trying to sell me was this new, up and coming like hustlers, which is good. So we're not all cut for school. Like I'm not educated. I didn't finish high school. Let's just jump right into this. So I grew up in Hasidic household. No Hasidic. I'm not sure what that you know, Hasidic Jews.

Nick VinZant 26:08

I can't I can never. I don't I'm not sure I get it confused with something else. I hope

Moshe Haimoff 26:15

no, not at all. So Hasidic Jews are the ones with the curls and the shaved heads with. So my father, we grew up very, very orthodox Jews, like ultra orthodox. I left that cult 13 years ago. So we did I had no, I had no I had no life. And no, nothing. I didn't know what to do. I can't afford some issues, somebody offered me a job. And then my friend Gabby, who taught me this whole business on the go, like 1516 years ago. But after I was 22 years old, taught me everything from scratch to whatever I know today. So that's when I left the call. Then I got this job and slowly still, I build my way to where I am today.

Nick VinZant 27:00

Where do you think the future takes you?

Moshe Haimoff 27:01

Only God knows.

Nick VinZant 27:03

That's pretty much all the questions I guys or anything that you think that we missed her. Kind of how can people find out more about you,

Moshe Haimoff 27:10

they can follow us on Tik Tok and Instagram at the watch King NYC. Come by to flip a coin. Anytime.

Nick VinZant 27:19

I want to thank Marcia so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have linked to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. If you want to see some of these watches. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on August 31. At 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of this show. Where in the alphabet, do you start to get confused about alphabetical order? Like where how far along can you get before you start getting confused as to which letter comes first?

John Shull 28:05

Like I immediately want to say, you know, like when you get to l and you have to go through elemeno. But then um, I usually don't stumble on that it's usually when I get past Oh start to get on to p q r s like that's usually where I or u and w, a lot of times I'm like, what comes first? What comes last?

Nick VinZant 28:27

I stumble right around the J area like H i and then I get J K L confused like wait, which ones comes first J K or L? And then I get confused again around the RS T area. Then you got to do like ABCD EFG. And

John Shull 28:45

this brings up a good question that I have for you actually, okay. I don't know how you do this. Like I've said, we don't rehearse this. So when you bring these things up, it's like you're reading my brain. I was having a conversation with my wife actually, about sobriety tests if you get pulled over. And she said there's no way that she could walk in a straight line or say the alphabet backwards under pressure. And I said, I'm pretty sure I could do the alphabet. I could probably walk a straight line to but I'm 100% sure I could probably recite the alphabet. You know, whether or not I was drunk or not. You could do it backwards. I'm, I'm pretty sure once again, I think I would maybe stumble on like u and v. But I'm pretty sure I could do it.

Nick VinZant 29:31

Okay, well, let's establish a reasonable amount of time for you to be able to do this.

John Shull 29:35

Well, no, they don't. I don't believe the police officers give you I mean, if it takes you an hour, I mean, it's not going to take me an hour. I'll try it fast. If you're gonna put me on the spot

Nick VinZant 29:46

or you're looking around, don't be looking at your phone. Okay, I think that you should be able to Okay, establish. Let's establish this as a baseline. I'm going to do it forward fairly quickly. So starting now A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L M N, O, P, Q, R s, t, u, v, w x, y and z, seven seconds. So that's seven seconds. So I think that you should be able to do it backwards within 45 seconds.

John Shull 30:14

Oh, no way. I will. I'll stumble. I'll try it. But I will i am going to stumble. And unless I can correct my stumbles. There's no way that I, I don't

Nick VinZant 30:24

know if you got to do it. Like you kind of know it, right? Like, you can't be going ABCD you know, I T and then do it all again until you get to the next one. And then like, do it like that? Like, you've got to? You can't do it through process of elimination. You've got to kind of like flow through it a little bit.

John Shull 30:43

I'll try. I don't know if I can do it in 45 seconds.

Nick VinZant 30:47

Okay, ready? Sure. If you get the first one wrong, and you're screwed. I honestly don't even I can't even right now. Say z and then whatever the next reverse alphabetical order. I don't even know what the next one is. Is it? W?

John Shull 31:00

I mean, don't give it away. Let's see. Let's see. Like, no,

Nick VinZant 31:03

it's not. Okay, ready? Go. Z.

John Shull 31:07

You had a false start there.

Nick VinZant 31:10

I did have a false. Okay. Well, that clock still running. Alright, we'll restart it because I think I can do that. Now. It's can't clock still running? What's the clock starts?

John Shull 31:17

W UVTSRPO. and M L. See, this is tough. K.

Nick VinZant 31:34

J Now you're doing it that way? She Yeah.

John Shull 31:37

See? That's yeah, but it's tough. Like if I had some time to think about it, I might have been able to get it right.

Nick VinZant 31:43

Yeah. I don't know. You messed up. I think you mix I think you missed an axe er, and you?

John Shull 31:49

Well, first off, you gave me a false start. And then you told me the clock was still Oh, it's my

Nick VinZant 31:53

fault. It's my fault. The false start is what screwed the whole thing up. So then if we didn't have a false start, you would have done it perfectly. Sounds like excuses.

John Shull 32:01

I'm just saying, getting back to the original question. I don't think I need reIated I stand no chance. But if I get pulled over sober and they asked me to do that, I'm still probably not passing it. Okay, let's just do a shout out. All right. I don't know what drew the females to our podcast last week? Certainly

Nick VinZant 32:20

not.

John Shull 32:22

Certainly not. I mean, I still look translucent, even though I've literally been in the sun. A lot.

Nick VinZant 32:29

Does it surprise you that a woman could be attracted to you in any way?

John Shull 32:34

No, because I, I think women are attracted, especially at our age, they're attracted to confidence and, you know, things that aren't necessarily maybe, you know, like dad bots, like they're attracted to Dad bots that are our age, and I'm okay with that.

Nick VinZant 32:53

Ultimately, I guess the question is, do you feel like your wife settled for you?

John Shull 32:58

Absolutely. I don't know. Well, how she stayed with me.

Nick VinZant 33:02

Yeah, I felt I kind of feel like, I feel like I was kind of like I was the last best option like, well, this is the best this is gonna get. So I better go ahead and just go ahead with that one.

John Shull 33:12

To be fair, my wife could have just left me in Florida. Or let me move out of Florida. She did not have to come to Michigan back to Michigan with me. Oh,

Nick VinZant 33:20

she moved with you. Yeah, my wife moved with me too. Yeah, she's surprising she could have stayed there. But anyway, okay. All right. Let's maybe we're

John Shull 33:27

actually catches and we just don't give herself enough enough credit. Anyways, in saying that we had a significant amount of new, actual female followers this week. So whatever you did, fantastic. So many of them are featured here. So we'll start with Mary Gatewood. Donald Darcy, obviously, not a female but still. Jamie Sweezy. Kathy Mon. Alexandra Hinds. Laura Newman. Catherine Madox? I like that Latin Emoto a first name or last name? Maddox. Maddox. Maddox. Yeah, like it.

Nick VinZant 34:06

I know I don't mind the first name Maddie.

John Shull 34:08

Maddie. Maddie is okay, Matt. You know, Matt is Vi Yeah. Maddie Maddox, Maddox.

Nick VinZant 34:15

Whatever mathematics. Carrie Marie Maddix,

John Shull 34:18

Carrie Stafford, Lisa runC. And Lou FIDIC. Y'all get the shout outs of the week.

Nick VinZant 34:28

It was Lou is Lou a woman or a man? Be Luis

John Shull 34:32

a man. Nope. It's a man. Okay, all right. All right. So while we're going back to some bangers for you, okay, because apparently, people liked these and I, at least the people that listen that I know wanted to know where they were. So I said, Fine. We'll bring them back.

Nick VinZant 34:47

I was wondering how long it was gonna take for factor fiction to run its course.

John Shull 34:52

Well, it's you know, when when you literally go against everything I say even though I'm proving that it's a factor if you're

Nick VinZant 34:59

not even But you're not there was the execution was not great, right? But the execution was right. Because you would say is 500? Like, do they eat 500? Do they eat half a million? And I would say no. And then you would say they eat 450? Well, 450 isn't 500 So like the equity was all over the place.

John Shull 35:19

Go back. I don't know. Hola last two months worth of episodes if you want to see what Nick's talking about, but for now, when you find yourself in this situation, what is the worst kind of person? In your opinion to be stuck in a in a room with will say for two hours? With no air conditioning? The No at all? Who keeps talking about themselves that are narcissistic, or a person who will just not stop talking about anything and everything. I like a person who you sit next to on an airplane that just won't shut the hell up.

Nick VinZant 35:58

I have reached an age I don't know when it exactly happened. Maybe when I pounced past 35 where I just want silence. I just want silence in my life. I'm not are you a nervous talker though?

John Shull 36:12

I don't think so. Actually, I think I'm actually pretty introverted. Unless you get me some liquid courage in me and then I become the then I become an all talker.

Nick VinZant 36:23

I can extend the conversation a little bit more than I should like all kinds of keep it going a little bit. But I don't like in a scale of one to 10 in terms of like being an over talker. I don't think I'm more than maybe like a 5.1 Maybe or maybe a six. You're not even

John Shull 36:43

I don't remember you being you're just a douche. Yeah, you're the guy bar. That's like where did Nick go? Oh, he bought me a drink. Oh, it's coming up. And then three minutes later, it's a glass of red wine.

Nick VinZant 36:57

Look, man. Got a free drink. I think there's what you're doing is really just complaining about stuff you shouldn't be complaining about. Somebody bought me a free drink. I'm not going to complain that it wasn't what I wanted. I'm going to drink it say thank you and move on with my life. And you know what

John Shull 37:11

I should have because I actually quite enjoy red wine. Now back then I did it. But now I do.

Nick VinZant 37:17

I just I'm still I just don't I can't get into that. I don't think I ever

John Shull 37:21

will. Because it's not dollar awful shooting doesn't taste

Nick VinZant 37:25

good to me. I like dollar beers. chinny whiskey, I'm gonna have I'm a man. I'm a man of the people not a snob.

John Shull 37:32

Anyway, so are you you're picking the No at all, then the narcissist because they may shut up.

Nick VinZant 37:36

Yeah, anything that would get them to not talk.

John Shull 37:41

What is a worst time to you being on stage during a GOP or democratic debate? As one of the candidates are waiting in line of an amusement park?

Nick VinZant 37:54

Oh, well, I mean, waiting in line. And I don't know, honestly, now that I think about it like, well, if I was there, I would want to be there. I don't want to be at the amusement park. So I guess it would be the amusement park. Right? Like I could. Yeah, I don't want to wait in line for anything. I don't like waiting. Unless it's going to be really fun and rewarding. Like I went to a place and went mountain biking and you had to wait in line to kind of get on the thing that takes you up to the top. But then you got to ride down the whole mountain and that was worth it. I don't mind waiting in line. If it's worth it. It's the not worth it. Like, okay, that wasn't worth it.

John Shull 38:32

Was it an actual mountain or like it's sand dune?

Nick VinZant 38:36

No, it was a Whistler Mountain Bike Park, which is a fantastic mountain bike park. If you're a skier or a mountain biker, and you have the opportunity to go to Whistler. That's a whole other world. Like that's a giant giant place. So if that's your jam, man, that's worth the trip.

John Shull 38:50

Nice Whistler. Yeah. Love it, man.

Nick VinZant 38:54

Where do you think it is? Where do you think that that is? Canada? Yes. But what part of Canada? Middle East West. What do you think it could be?

John Shull 39:06

I mean, my first initial thing is to say Vancouver area, but Well, that's right. Oh, but I actually think I know that because of the Vancouver Olympics.

Nick VinZant 39:17

Yeah, that's where they had it. Yeah. You're welcome. Man. Coover

John Shull 39:20

van coup for Canada and underrated country I feel for tourism and great great scenes.

Nick VinZant 39:30

Yeah, I enjoy Canada every time I've been there.

John Shull 39:34

I'm what's funny is I'm like right next to like the, I think probably what's considered the shittiest part of Canada, which is Windsor, because that's the most Americanized

Nick VinZant 39:44

because it's by Detroit and Detroit brings it down as a whole No, like Detroit sale bad. It brought the other part of another country down. Oh, there's a great funny. Yeah, I'm pretty proud of that. Listen,

John Shull 39:56

don't don't listen to him. Detroit's a great place. All right. It uh, yeah, I guess I guess that's it mine will be I was, I would rather be on stage during a debate. Just because I, I'd hate waiting in lines. So I'm good.

Nick VinZant 40:12

This is a top five that I've been wanting to do for a long time. I think it is a topic that is rich for discussion. John has repeatedly shot it down until today, which he agreed to do it, which is top five ways to drink something. That's your number five.

John Shull 40:29

I only agreed to this because I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this. Because I'm not. It was hard to come up with five different ways to drink something.

Nick VinZant 40:38

There's a lot of different ways to drink something.

John Shull 40:40

Well, maybe I'll be inspired by one of your options and add it added to my list. Okay. Okay. So, my number five, I put like an athletic bottle, like a sports bottle, like you know, like a Gatorade bottle. You know, you see like the athletes and they're getting some water and they spray it into their mouth.

Nick VinZant 41:00

See, I don't have that kind of thing anywhere on my list because all I'm thinking about is that is that all the spit back that's going back into that thing.

John Shull 41:09

But it's i I agree with you,

Nick VinZant 41:12

right? Drinking a spare amount of spit. However, if you've ever been in that

John Shull 41:16

situation, and you want some water quick, you just and then you get blasted in the face with just water.

Nick VinZant 41:24

Okay, that's why my number five is a hose. Okay, back to your childhood. thirst quenching endless supply. It seems like you can just drink it right there. You don't have to worry about really making a mess because you're drinking from a hose outside. Okay. Oh, lapping it up.

John Shull 41:45

hose is a good one. i Okay, I think I see where you're starting to turn to teeter off to on this one. Now my number four is is going to discuss you and it's in you're probably going to have more questions and call me an idiot. But that's fine. But my number four is in the shower.

Nick VinZant 42:02

You drink water out of the shower.

John Shull 42:06

I knew you were gonna say that. And here's my one argument to that is that everybody? Whether you do it constantly or once or twice drinks the shower water.

Nick VinZant 42:16

But how often do you drink the water out of the shower?

John Shull 42:20

It's on every time but if I'm if I'm outside getting a sweat and I jump in a nice cold shower, I might you know, drink a couple there have a couple gulps I mean it's just nice.

Nick VinZant 42:30

So you just like put like ah like that. Are you like putting it in your hands? What do you know? I mean, it's hot water.

John Shull 42:37

No, it's cold. It's cold. Usually, you know. And it's no you're just you know, you're opening your mouth and and go in, take a couple of swigs. And then you're moving on with your day. But it's it's nice. It's refreshing. And it's literally water that comes out of your shower is no different than water that comes out. I mean, your tap or your hose. It's the same water.

Nick VinZant 42:56

Yeah, but I just feel like that's dirty for some reason. Well, everybody like I just don't feel like it's really clean. Which is odd. It's like it's clean enough for me to wash my body with it but not clean enough for me to drink.

John Shull 43:08

I guess I know it's a weird one. But it's give it a try. You may not not like it or you may like it.

Nick VinZant 43:16

Did you ever drink it out of the bottom spigot? Like the thing you fill up with the bath? I've gone down and they haven't been drinking out of that

John Shull 43:22

I actually have but wow, once again, usually I can be quite nimble. Well, maybe not now but back in when I was a younger man may be more nimble. Nimble, not nimble, nimble. There when you know there was a few few nights where you came home, your stomach was gurgling and you needed to get some quick water in your belly. So

Nick VinZant 43:46

why wouldn't you just use the sink? Why would you put your face underneath that? That doesn't make ever you passed out in the towel. I

John Shull 43:53

mean, that probably went along with it those couple of nights that I did that I'm sure.

Nick VinZant 43:59

Yeah, you got to hydrate, you got to hydrate. Um, my number four is a water fountain. And if I'm going to choose a water fountain it's going to specifically be like the aluminum looking one with the plastic thing that you push in or the one that you push down I'm gonna go push down is better than push in.

John Shull 44:18

That was like when you were in school and you were changing class or whatever classes and you know that that was that was the best

Nick VinZant 44:27

that brings you back to like school yeah, out of a water found did you put your mouth over the top because you get your know when a guy puts his mouth over the bubbler?

John Shull 44:36

No there was actually like every as far back as I can go there was a sign that said do not lick Do not put your mouth on the spigot.

Nick VinZant 44:48

I'm a little bit weary those ones where you gotta get really close and they always seem to be like the porcelain looking ones where you gotta like get way down there and like this is getting close for comfort here.

John Shull 44:59

Well, I mean And then you, you know, you'd always have sometimes like the random stuff in there, like a fingernail hair and you're like clothes. You're like, Yeah, I'm not. I'm not doing that tool chatter but takes care of it.

Nick VinZant 45:13

That might be one of the most disgusting things for me if I see somebody's like fingernail clippings are a fingernail piece laying around that, to me is really gross. I get grossed out by that. I'm like, oh,

John Shull 45:25

so I'm a biter as we've talked about, so I do my best to clean them up. But sometimes they find their way on the floor and other places.

Nick VinZant 45:33

Why don't you just not do it? Did you try to put the stuff on there? Like the stuff that makes them taste gross? So you don't do it?

John Shull 45:40

No, I know, I don't want to do that. Because then I know that I would cut them like how 96% of the world does it?

Nick VinZant 45:48

Wouldn't that be the right way to do it then?

John Shull 45:50

Who says it's the right way to do it? Nick

Nick VinZant 45:54

96% of the world?

Unknown Speaker 45:56

Who says they're correct?

Nick VinZant 45:58

Well, I mean, I guess not. Well, how do you do it? That's so special.

John Shull 46:02

I don't I'm a biter. I said that. I mean, like, I

Nick VinZant 46:05

don't know how to why wouldn't you want to just cut them?

John Shull 46:08

I don't know. And anyone who's listening to this, we don't know why we're biting. We just do it. Like it's not even really a nervous twitch. I don't think

Nick VinZant 46:15

for me just like to chew your fingernails. What do they taste like, by the way? If it tastes

John Shull 46:19

not, I mean, not really. Unless there's a little chicken wing sauce leftover from dinner or something.

Nick VinZant 46:23

Oh, you could get a little dirt in there. Honestly. What number are we on?

John Shull 46:29

My number three, which is, you know, boring. It's as vanilla as it gets, but it's just a cup.

Nick VinZant 46:37

Okay, my number three is a straw.

John Shull 46:40

Okay, I do not have straw on my list because I can't think of one drink. Maybe outside of a smoothie. that I that I care to have a straw man.

Nick VinZant 46:52

I don't think that you can use a straw for anything under 32 ounces. If I'm buying a 20 ounce or at the gas station, I'm not getting a straw. It's 32 or above. Not getting a straw for a 20 ounce. You're gonna drink that without a lid to be honest with you. Because that's how I live fucking reckless.

John Shull 47:13

Alright, so my number two speaking of without a lid is like a like a fountain pop but with water. Like a fountain cup. Put some ice cubes in there. It just tastes different. It's like you know how people say bout and pop tastes different with a water is the same way it just I don't know what it is. It just tastes delicious. Coming out of like a like a soda pop fountain.

Nick VinZant 47:38

Hmm. Oh, wait a minute. Like you're going to like the gas station or the fast food restaurant. You're filling it up with water in your cup.

John Shull 47:47

There was a point in my life where I was like, Man, that's Wawa water is the best water I've ever had. And that probably says a lot about me so yeah, does

Nick VinZant 47:57

also you waste How much did they charge you for that? Did they charge you full price if you're just getting water?

John Shull 48:01

No, they didn't charge me anything after like the first week they realized I was coming in just to fill up water.

Nick VinZant 48:07

You go in there to Wawa just to get water.

John Shull 48:11

Sometimes Yeah, my way to work on my way to once again

Nick VinZant 48:14

I live bring in copper. Did you get a new cup every time? No. I

John Shull 48:18

mean, I had. They had like recyclable cups. Then they I'm sure they do now they probably have a pro. Everything's recyclable. But it's just like I don't know what it is. It was just I don't know. It was just so goddamn delicious. That water was oh, it was the best Wawa water in Florida if you're listening in Florida or any of the other states that have Wawa. Forget off. Go get some wild wild water. It's amazing

Nick VinZant 48:44

water. I don't know if I've ever had like really good water. Like, oh, that was some good water. I've just like water. I've had people

John Shull 48:53

like recommend water to me. And I'm like, This tastes like shit. Like,

Nick VinZant 48:57

I don't really want it. Did you get recommended?

John Shull 48:59

I mean, probably the last one I can remember was and this is simple. And a lot of people have had it but I don't because I don't buy bottled water was Fuji. I was like this Fuji like shit like this does not taste good. Give me my filtered water from home.

Nick VinZant 49:16

Hmm, I drink mostly just tap water. Well, that's really all I drink is just give me some tap water. I don't need your fancy water.

John Shull 49:25

I mean, they kind of recommend in my area to put it put it through

Nick VinZant 49:32

all rights, right because you live in a great city that doesn't have good water. That's no that's normal. That's good. Good place. My number two is straight out of the container. Straight out of the container right like if it's pop drink it straight out of the two liter of milk straight out of the carton. I swear the drinking thing straight out of the container tastes better.

John Shull 49:54

So that's my number one is kind of like that, but it's out of a jug

Nick VinZant 50:01

All I do like drinking out of a jug

John Shull 50:02

like you know you get the gallon jugs of water. Yeah and you finish it and you're like well I'm drinking my water for the day like I'm good

Nick VinZant 50:12

once you get past like the initial awkwardness of drinking out of the jug of whatever you're trying to drink it's just like I got all this liquid like I got all this drinking straight out of a jugs coming

John Shull 50:24

out both ends tonight's we are getting ready

Nick VinZant 50:28

with the

John Shull 50:31

idea actually, I

Nick VinZant 50:33

think I'm gonna go do this and it's

John Shull 50:34

been a decade since I

Nick VinZant 50:36

couldn't go out both drink out of a jug or give yourself an enema which is what a resounding

John Shull 50:41

BOTH Yeah, I in putting that on my list. I immediately thought like I should be doing that. Anyways, I don't drink hardly enough water

Nick VinZant 50:52

at all. Nobody does.

John Shull 50:54

I mean, yeah, who knows? What's your number one

Nick VinZant 50:58

small cup with ice? Talking about like maybe a 12 ounce cup with ice in there. I think that everything on a 12 ounce cup with ice tastes better than anything else.

John Shull 51:06

So that's similar to like my gas you know my gas station cup with with with fountain with fountain ice and water like you get it? You got it.

Nick VinZant 51:15

But wait a minute when you got the Wawa water. Did you get it with ice? Did you get it with cubed ice you get it with a crushed ice

John Shull 51:22

crushed ice and then was like those little like hail you know a hell balls or whatever. Like the little balls of ice the little ones? So good.

Nick VinZant 51:30

Oh, I thought they were usually square.

John Shull 51:33

I mean, I don't maybe they changed but I move. We need to get Wawa, Wawa on here or what? Well, he's

Nick VinZant 51:41

not a real person.

John Shull 51:42

I know. Why why not? Mr. Wawa.

Nick VinZant 51:46

I wonder how many plays anyway, what do you have anything in your honorable mention?

John Shull 51:50

I mean, the only thing that I have is a Tervis. Just because the fuck is that? If you pour it in there, it stays like if you pour cold water in there, it will stay cold. For hours. It will never

Nick VinZant 52:03

warm. So it's just a bottle. It's a fancy bottle a Tervis you've never heard of a Tervis tumbler? No, I'm not a snob.

John Shull 52:11

I don't like you are what? There's no one. They're not a snobby thing.

Nick VinZant 52:15

They're How much are they?

John Shull 52:16

I mean, I don't. I don't know. Maybe 20 bucks

Nick VinZant 52:21

to drink water. You're gonna pay $20 A drink?

John Shull 52:25

No, it's not just for water. You can, you know, coffee and other drinks.

Nick VinZant 52:31

I'm going to look it up right now and probably get upset how you spell it T U R V I S?

John Shull 52:37

T E R V I S? And then Tumblr is common spelling.

Nick VinZant 52:45

Oh, you're a snob. Insulated drink were unbelievable. Unbelievable. There's another one that's really popular that it has like a Hydroflask Yeah. Hydroflask a lot of people have Hydroflask I don't.

John Shull 53:04

That's the that's the jug looking thing, right?

Nick VinZant 53:07

I don't know, I have a plastic cup that we got to target. I think it was like $20 for 40 of them. I would drink out of a red. So actually, you know could be number one. Solid number one is a red solo cup.

John Shull 53:22

I mean, but no one just drinks water unless you're at a party out of a red solo cup, which is fine. Now that was drinking water out of it. Yeah, no one's drinking water out. Uh

Nick VinZant 53:30

oh. Do you have anything in your honorable mention? No, just the Tervis think about trying to drink water out of your hands next time right. It's a little bit thirst quenching or get some water lap it up in there.

John Shull 53:45

It's hard

Nick VinZant 53:48

to have small hands.

John Shull 53:49

I mean, they're not they're not the biggest hands.

Nick VinZant 53:52

Do you have trouble does it if you make if you make the thing to try to seal in the water right? If you do the thing does the water get out? Or can you seal it up pretty good.

John Shull 54:01

I can seal it up pretty good. I mean, I My hands are like small but they're not like overly large either.

Nick VinZant 54:07

Okay, on a scale of one to 10 How well do you seal up the water? How well do you feel like you do like 10 is nothing to get now you could walk across the desert with that and deliver it to somebody

John Shull 54:18

Oh, oh, well, you're going that extreme. I'm gonna say a four maybe a three.

Nick VinZant 54:24

Oh, I think I can get to at least a seven I could walk a city block I think I could walk a city block with water in my hands and not have very much it would spill out. Maybe not a big city blocks maybe like a city block in a residential area. 100 feet you

John Shull 54:41

have okay 100 feet and I I can still be the bison in a 40 yard dash.

Nick VinZant 54:47

Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know What do you think? Are some of the best ways to drink something? And also, let us know if you think if this is a dumb topic, or actually really interesting, I, I think that little things like this really tell you who someone is. Like, that's how you really find out who people are not in the big stuff because we all kind of have the same priorities and desires when it comes to the big stuff. But the little stuff is what really tells you who somebody is. And John is the kind of guy that's going to stop in the middle of his day and go to the gas station to get water from the fountain. So he is

Sneaker Artist Dillon DeJesus

Custom Sneaker Designer Dillon DeJesus turns ordinary shoes into works of art. We talk sneaker art, creating custom sneakers that sell for thousands and the greatest shoes of all time. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Places to Wait in Line.

Dillon DeJesus: 01:21

Pointless: 44:08

Top 5 Worst Lines: 01:12:32

Contact the Show

Dillon DeJesus YouTube

Dillon DeJesus Instagram

Interview with Sneaker Artist Dillon DeJesus

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, custom shoes, and long lines.

Dillon DeJesus 0:21

So this is just such a fun time in my life looking back on when I really got into sneakers. Unfortunately for a lot of artists, I think it takes a long time to turn it into a business, I think it can be hard, knowing what it was like being a younger artist, it's easy to want to throw in the towel, to have no idea how you're going to do certain things to look at artists, other artists that you look up to, and just constantly think, how do they make this look so easy.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest designs and creates custom sneakers. But these aren't just shoes. These are works of art. This is sneaker artist, Dylan de Zuse. So what is it about shoes? What is it about him that got your attention,

Dillon DeJesus 1:24

being a Chicago guy like myself, you know, the Jordan, basketball sports were just a part of the culture. And when I was in high school is when I really got into just collecting sneakers, just the love for sneakers. When I sort of got that first job in high school started to finally, you know, make a little bit of money for yourself, what do you want to spend it on. And for me, it was just on shoes, it was collecting rare shoes and staying up to date on, you know what was coming out. And this was just such a fun time in my life. Because this is really before social media became what it is now. And this is still in like the blog era. Yeah, the original places. Yeah, places like Nike talk, and forums. And there's just none of that nowadays, it's just not the same. And we're just so inundated with so many constant updates and stuff. But before you used to have to look into things like magazines and all of this other stuff. And so it's just such a fun time in my life looking back on when I really got into sneakers. And that's sort of how I landed here. Just the love for it. I went to college to study architecture, started taking some painting classes in college. And I said, You know what, I see some people online doing this whole painting shoe thing to make something rare, you know, make something one of one for themselves. And I said, You know what, I've taken a couple painting classes. Let's see what I can do if I throw some paint at some shoes.

Nick VinZant 2:55

Now, is this shoe? Is a shoe a hard thing to kind of customize? Or is it pretty easy? Like when you look at painting other kinds of mediums? Is a shoe easy? Or is it difficult to do?

Dillon DeJesus 3:06

Shoes are a pretty tricky Canvas in and of themselves. Because there's a lot of different materials. As much as you might think it's an entirely blank canvas. It's not because certain materials really shouldn't be painted certain parts of shoes, you have to treat differently. And so I do think that you know they are they take some know how to really do them well, but at the same time, it's fun, because I just don't think there's another piece of clothing or fashion where you can make as much of a statement with Wearable art like you can with shoes.

Nick VinZant 3:39

Is that really the attraction? You think is the idea of kind of you can customize this it's wearable art? Is that what gets people into it?

Dillon DeJesus 3:47

Yeah, I think so. I think you know, there's a lot of people like myself, who just have a general love for shoes and custom sneakers have really started to become a part of the culture within the sneaker industry over the last decade or so. And so now even if you have no interest in custom shoes, just paying attention to you know, some of the you know, current sneaker blogs, however they're around nowadays, you still end up seeing some of this stuff, you still start to see certain sneaker customizers who have really implanted themselves as figures within the industry. So anybody who's you know, really into shoes has certainly at least heard about it. And so I think that that's why a lot of people do tend to want to get started to create something one on one for themselves so that they can stand out from the crowd.

Nick VinZant 4:36

What was the first shoe you Did you remember? Yeah, so

Dillon DeJesus 4:40

the first shoe that I did would be a shoe that was inspired by the South Beach LeBrons. So LeBron went to Miami in 2010 and shortly after that, he would have been on his eighth Nike basketball sneakers. They released a colorway called the South Beach colorway with him going to Miami it and it was inspired by, you know, the Miami Vice show, so steel and hot pink. And it was a really rare exclusive shoe and being a broke college student at the time, I couldn't afford to get the shoes. But in the early days of custom sneakers, what people were doing was taking colorways like the South Beach LeBron and painting them on to simpler, cheaper models, so that you could essentially have something that was meant to symbolize that borrower rare or exclusive pair. So that's how I got started. And that's really what custom sneaker was, you know, the the entire industry for the first few years of me doing it, there was definitely people who were creating your theme shoes, your Ironman shoes, you know your Hulk shoes, but that was way way, way less common than it is nowadays. Originally, it was about recreating other colorways from more exclusive shoes on to cheaper, easier to find Nike models.

Nick VinZant 5:57

But could people like No, would people be able to tell like, Hey, man, like I know, you just kind of you pay it out? Those aren't the real Totally.

Dillon DeJesus 6:04

Totally. Yeah, I mean, you know, we would do a LeBron shoe, which is very much it looks like an on court basketball sneaker, and paint that on to a Jordan and as weird as it is. Jordan shoes, almost they don't look anywhere near what the last 20 years of on court basketball sneakers look like. Like if you just compare the look of Jordan shoes, his first 20 sneaker models to LeBron who's coming up on his 20th sneaker model. There's not a they don't look anything alike. Just the technology and stuff has advanced so much. So that's why you know, people could certainly spot it. But at the same time it was Oh, that's really cool. You were trying to recreate that very rare colorway. And do it on a simpler shoe. You know,

Nick VinZant 6:54

so how pop okay, I know this is kind of a hard thing to like gauge, right? But how popular would you say this is? Right? So 100% of people own shoes. 10% are doing customized 20%? Like 1%? Like how, how popular would you say that it is?

Dillon DeJesus 7:12

Of all people that are into shoes? I would say less than 5%? Yeah, I mean, somewhere between one to 5% not a not a huge minority, or majority Excuse me,

Nick VinZant 7:24

but enough that it's still like on the grand scale extrapolated throughout the nation, like there's still a lot of people.

Dillon DeJesus 7:30

Definitely, definitely there still is. And like I said, you can't help but if you follow sneaker pages that post sneaker release dates and sneaker news and this type of stuff, you can't help but see it and come across it, especially because it's just really popular within, you know, sports athletes are wearing custom shoes on NBA courts on NFL fields. And so more and more people are just hearing about it. But I can still walk down the street into the grocery store, have conversation with somebody, what do you do 995 out of 100 times they would you know they would unless they are into shoes, say painting on shoes. That's the thing. People make a career out of that you know what I mean? And I've been doing it a long time. And they're still, you know, if I'm just an Uber with somebody and you're talking back and forth with your driver, there's a good chance they've probably never heard of people painting and cheese.

Nick VinZant 8:24

Soda. Most people do it as a hobby, or is this kind of a what's the word that I'm looking for a business for most people are a little bit of both a

Dillon DeJesus 8:35

little bit of both. I think it's something that has to start as a hobby, of course, because it takes a while. Like like a lot of things. I'm sure it takes a while to really conquer and master. And unfortunately for a lot of artists, I think it takes a long time to turn it into a business, I think it can be hard to turn it into something profitable. And there's a sort of a big picture narrative, I think going on within the industry that somebody might take a look at something like this and just see an Air Force One, okay. Now, an Air Force One is a shoe that for many, many years has been $100. Okay, so when they see this, regardless of what's on here, that's $100 shoe. So to then convince somebody to pay $1,000 for $2,000 for it, or even a couple 100 They can't help but have that price point in their head of oh, well, that was just originally $100 shoe. They're not really it's starting to change. But not as many people are able to really just view it as an art piece. You know, if you were purchasing a canvas from somebody, like a half year of one of a Chicago artist did have my wife, you're not asking how much the canvas cost? You know what I mean? You're not, you know, if Picasso paints on a piece of paper, and are wondering how much you paid for the piece of paper, you have a Picasso piece in front of you, you know what I mean? So I think that that's a narrative that myself and others have really tried to help shift within the industry over the last half decade or so. It takes a while to make money doing this so that you can push past people just thinking of it as, okay, that's $100 shoe. It's a little bit cooler than what I could purchase at the mall, if they were to release a, you know, a special limited edition colorway. But I can't pay 10 times the normal price for it. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Nick VinZant 10:25

I don't know if this question will make sense, because I don't really know anything about art. But hopefully it'll kind of like, you'll get the gist of what I'm asking. Do you think that like sneaker art? Can it raise to the level of high art, where it's like saying something about society? Or about relationships? Or about whatever, you know, like you look at a painting and you feel a certain way about something? Can sneakers do that? Or is it's at the level of like, Oh, that looks cool.

Dillon DeJesus 10:54

Totally, no, I really think they can. And over the last few years, there's been more opportunities for people within my industry of popping up in different galleries in certain galleries, celebrating the history of custom sneakers, having an entire installations dedicated to just artists from all around the world. And so the more that we can be seen as not just shoes, but art, the better for everybody. And that's where I think you'll really start to see more and more people who aren't just into, you know, collecting shoes and wanted to have a rare exclusive colorway. But people have been artists, their whole lives, working on shoes to tell their story for the first time. And that's happening more and more, I think.

Nick VinZant 11:37

So kind of like getting into the process of it. Like, how do you do it? I said, Yeah,

Dillon DeJesus 11:43

right. Yeah. So everybody's process is different. You know what I mean? I think one of my big picture goals, as an artist is to really be able to tackle anything that comes my way. So around the same time that I really got started with shoes. Funny enough, I feel like I owe my entire artistic journey to a TV show called income Master. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's to competition. Okay. And so that started around the time, when I had been doing this maybe a year or so I think it premiered maybe 2011 2012. And I feel I learned more about the things that I implement every single day than truly anything in life as crazy as that sounds, the impact that that show has had on me. And it's so funny, because what I really enjoyed about the show is, you know, they would start with maybe 15 to 20 people and week by week, artists would get eliminated until, you know, there was a big showdown with the final three. And so as somebody who watched the show, as it aired, you would see the premiere episode with 20 people. And right away, I would watch it with my girlfriend at the time now wife, little brother, and we would pick which artist we thought really stood out in the beginning. And I think that that person can go all the way and look at what he did on day one. And let's check them out on Instagram and see what he's been doing. And it's so funny, because I think we watched you know, I have no idea what season they're even on now, I think 12 or 13, or something. Never once did I come close to predicting correctly, because I would always pick the artist on day one that I think would win who was the strongest at their own style. And so you would have absolutely incredible new school artist, or absolutely incredible, traditional black and gray who just wild the piece that they did would blow you away. But as the weeks would go by, and there would be new challenges that black and gray tattoo artist, then when the competition's halfway done would all of a sudden have to do a comic book style tattoo or a new school tattoo and do something he's not that familiar with. And all of a sudden that artists who had been rooting for who I thought was going to go all the way because he was knocking out the first few challenges when he got to do his thing would get eliminated. And what I started to take away after a few seasons, and what the judges would say as well on the tattoo show is you need to be able to handle any tattoo that comes in your shop. So over time as I was trying to develop a style as an artist because I'm not a formally trained artist by any means. I realized I want to be able to handle anything that comes my way and put my stamp on it. I don't ever want to have to turn somebody away, because I don't have the ability to do it. I don't want somebody who maybe wants a portrait to not be able to get it from me because I don't know how to do portraits or somebody who wants something really simple to not be able to get from me, you know, because I only do crazy over the top. super colorful, textured work. I want to be able to handle anything that comes my way. So I don't have just one signature style, I like to be able to do anything that comes my way. And so I want somebody to be able to look at my work, and who might be familiar with it to really start to recognize over time as they see more and more pieces. Oh, yeah, that does look like a piece that was done by Dylan dazes. You know what I mean? I want all of the pieces to eventually have some similarities between them. So sorry, this is a really long answer to that question. All right, my process is, I like to first have a consultation, you know, with a potential client and really get a feel for what they're trying to have done. And then my process is really just starting to play with things in Photoshop, really just starting to play with, you know, the balance of colors. So for example, if I'm doing a, I'm a Chicago guy. So if I'm doing a Chicago bear shoe, just really starting to balance out how much navy blue I want to do, how much orange I want to do get a feel for them? Are they looking for a really loud, orange shoe? Or are they looking for something more subtle, with you know, a lot more of that navy blue. And, you know, really just try to get a feel for how loud and over the top, I'm going to go because I like to turn the dial all the way up to start and then get feedback from them. Okay, let's turn it down a little bit. But I want the pieces that I do to truly stand out and be something unique. So first, I'll let the clients are to tell me let's tame it down a little I'm on something a little more subtle, and go from there. So I do start with a good general concept of I'm really just trying to get a feel for the balance of the overall colors and stuff. placement of where I might do logos, you know what I mean? Do I want to do something big on the toes, when you look at the shoes from directly above. Or if somebody's looking at the shoes from behind you when the two heels are placed together? Do I want there to be some type of meaning, you know, when the shoes are placed side by side, just really starting to play for different stuff like that. But I think that my style in the art itself really comes with time and playing with it. So even though I do like to put together a general markup that just has like a bit of a balance between the colors, I don't always like to stay completely true to it. Sometimes I just like to let you know, sort of the canvas speak to me or let things flow as I actually start to get into the painting and whatnot.

Nick VinZant 17:27

From the technical aspects of it, like what kind of paint do you use? Like, how do you even do it?

Dillon DeJesus 17:32

Yeah, so there is a brand out in California called Angelus leather paint, excuse me, that's the name of the product, they are just called Angeles. And they've been around for almost 100 years really started off with leather dyes and things like that, as you know, as shoes have really evolved over time, but shoe dyes shoe polish, and things like that is what they started with. And then they built a paint line over time that works with leather material. And I would say, I don't know, 80% of the shoes that I work on are primarily leather. And they have a few different additives if you're working on things like fabrics, meshes, prime minutes of that type of

Nick VinZant 18:12

stuff. So how long does it look like? How long will it take you generally,

Dillon DeJesus 18:16

I always compare that in a way to how long does it take to take? So it really depends out? Yeah, depending on what I mean. Generally speaking, usually between 20 to 50 hours for a lot of my pieces, there's probably not a ton of stuff that you see from me that's under 10 hours or so. So it is a lengthy process to do to do it right, you know,

Nick VinZant 18:39

now, will every single one of them be different? Or do you kind of have like, this is my this for this. And I might make 10 or 15? Or however many of those are is every single one? No, like this is one of one every single time

Dillon DeJesus 18:52

you know, the answer to that one has really changed over time. Nowadays, it's pretty much all one of one. But I've tried every, you know, release style on the book. So hey, I'm going to be releasing 10 of the shoes come September 1. So everybody who's interested, you know, start marking your calendars and come September 1, I'm going to be releasing 10 After they sell out, I'm never going to be making them again, things like that. I've tried it all. And now for the last probably five years or so it's been predominantly just one on one work unless I'm doing big, you know, corporate orders or things like that, where they're trying to purchase, you know, a lot of the similar style at the same time,

Nick VinZant 19:33

how much you sell them for, can we can I just straight up ask you that or is that?

Dillon DeJesus 19:36

Totally. Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. So you know, kind of like the a similar answer to how long does it take? There's a there's a very wide range. Yeah, for the most part, generally speaking, a lot of issues are usually going to be between 1500 to 2000. And that's for a lot of the one on one stuff that can take you know, anywhere from like I said 25 to 50 hours.

Nick VinZant 20:00

most expensive one,

Dillon DeJesus 20:02

the most expensive shoe that I've sold would have been, huh. I think 2400 would have been the most expensive one,

Nick VinZant 20:14

even though that sounds like a lot. But then when you think about it, like, Oh, if that's taken you 20 hours,

Dillon DeJesus 20:20

100 hours. That was, this was 100 hour pair. So it's, it's really, really hard to look at this on an on an hourly wage. Yeah, type scale as an artist, it's, it's always something that a lot of people like to do, because so much of the rest of the world works on an hourly wage. But you really can't always just factor that in as an artist, because yeah, it's not hopefully, hopefully what takes you 10 hours today, down the line, you can scale that time in half, and start and be able to charge more, because that took you a few years to become that much more efficient. So now hopefully, your products even better. But what's what's funny about the, my response to that is, even though I certainly have become more efficient over time, you also start to nitpick yourself 10 times harder. So you have so much more of a trained eye than you do when you're first starting out. So you know, something that maybe used to take me let's just say 10 hours, let's just call that something simple, even 10 years ago, now, that might still take me 10 hours, because I'm nitpicking it so much more, you know what I mean in in finding a way to make sure it's a million times more perfect than it was 10 years ago. So it's funny because even though you become more efficient, there's definitely a trade off that you start to nitpick yourself even more.

Nick VinZant 21:43

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it easiest pair of shoes to work with hardest pair of shoes to work with.

Dillon DeJesus 21:53

Easiest pair of shoes to work with would be a pair of Nike Roche ones, which was a much popular shoe. About a half decade ago. Like in 2016 2017 2018, it was pretty much an all mesh upper, and meshes even easier to paint than leather. So it was just a really fun silhouette that everybody was working on for a few years. Unfortunately, the shoe just fell out of favor over the last three, four years. So there's just nobody doing them anymore. But had a lot of fun working on those. And hardest shoe to work on would be probably something like a Jordan four. Because it just has a ridiculous amount of materials. Depending on the color that you get. There's such crazy contours of the shoe. It's a it's a fabulous silhouette to do certain themes with. But at the same time, it would be an absolute nightmare for a beginner to start with the shoe like that, because of all the different materials because of how not straightforward it is to just plan out the design. And so it's just a really, really tricky one to do, right?

Nick VinZant 23:06

Is there a shoe that would be like, Oh, I'd love to do that. But it's just too difficult. Like you couldn't, you can't do that with this kind of shoe.

Dillon DeJesus 23:12

I feel like I run into that a lot with Jordan force because of the way the the shoe was built. There's no large areas to do big logos and things like that. There's just, it's just this shoe that has all of these panels on top of each other. And there's even a part for anybody who's not too familiar with the shoes, there's something called the wings on the shoe. So it's just all these interconnected pieces that really make it a unique silhouette. But it's just a truly tricky one to work on and nail.

Nick VinZant 23:45

Oh, I'm looking at it now that does look like it's got all kinds of stuff all over it.

Dillon DeJesus 23:50

It's busy. It's busy. It

Nick VinZant 23:52

is busy. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa, did that come out? Because that looks like an 80s 99 shoe ad. Yeah,

Dillon DeJesus 23:59

right. Yep. 89

Nick VinZant 24:01

Can I go jump aside and say that I think the best shoe of all time is those Jordans that had like the black shiny leather on the bottom? Do you notice because the base

Dillon DeJesus 24:09

damn ones are those the space to those other ones that he wore in spaceships. So that's called the if I'm, if I'm right, and what you're probably talking about that would be the Jordan 11. So that's when he won. Oh

Nick VinZant 24:22

yeah,

Dillon DeJesus 24:23

the 72 and 10 bulls that's the shoe he's wearing during that year. You might be talking about like the bread colorway which is black and red and white. But the one that he wore in the Space Jam movie was all black with a white midsole and it had like a royal blue jump.

Nick VinZant 24:38

What What would you consider to be the best shoe like what is your personal favorite shoe?

Dillon DeJesus 24:43

My favorite shoe of all time would be the Jordan three and the black cement colorway. So the Jordan three is what he wore when he won the slam dunk contest and jump from the free throw line. So that's a super iconic shoe for sure.

Nick VinZant 24:57

Oh that is kind of a cool shoe. That's I feel like correct me if I'm wrong here. I feel like that's the kind of shoe that sneaker heads. Is that still a word? Yeah. Okay. Right. You can see how old I'm getting, like people say stool. Do people still say cool? Like, it's cool. I'm still,

Dillon DeJesus 25:18

you're still in?

Nick VinZant 25:20

That looks like the kind of shoe that like sneaker heads would love. But maybe regular people and air quotes like, oh, that's, I don't know if that's totally an issue.

Dillon DeJesus 25:30

Totally. It's funny when I got into shoes, you know. And I started to look up all the Jordan models and silhouettes and started thinking to myself, you sort of hear which ones are popular online. And this is coming from somebody who just sort of growing up, which is wearing vans, simpler shoes. But then when I just started to dive into this world, it was interesting how different they were than just, you know, growing up, I didn't feel like I said, collect Jordans or anything like that I had your very basic simple shoes, your staples. And it was so interesting seeing these for the first time because at first glance when you've never seen anything like it almost like your response there that's that's kind of unique. That's that's kind of different. I can see how people that are into sneakers like it. But for your average Joe, that might be sort of a weird looking shoe, that's not something that they would gravitate towards, you know,

Nick VinZant 26:27

this leads me into this question, how do you feel about white New Balance is that older generations where?

Dillon DeJesus 26:34

Man, you gotta love them, whatever, what it built for comfort? You know what I mean? built for comfort, whatever works for you and your feet, you know,

Nick VinZant 26:41

do you think that you'll ever hit that age where you just buy the same shoe over and over again?

Dillon DeJesus 26:47

Oh, totally, totally. As I've become a as I've become a dad, and, you know, just gotten busier with the business and I work from home, there's way less time spent on me worrying about collecting shoes and whatnot. And now it's grab and go and things got to be a lot quicker. So

Nick VinZant 27:05

what's the hardest part of the shoe itself to kind of design easiest part of the shoe,

Dillon DeJesus 27:12

the hardest part of the shoe to design, I think I would have to say would be I think if you're worried about the long term durability of the shoe, which somebody who's creating a wearable piece of art is the hardest part of the shoe to design would be the areas where it's most likely to crease. And so those are the areas where you're a lot more susceptible to things like paint chipping and whatnot. So sometimes you need to find the right shoe where you may not need to paint certain areas, you can keep those as part of the factory design and still just sort of interweave your design throughout there. So that would be the hardest part because you have to just really factor that in. That takes away some of the ability to just treat it like a blank canvas but the easiest part of the shoe to design boy easiest part of the shoe to design I don't know that's tricky to answer.

Nick VinZant 28:14

Does does it vary a lot by shoe like Oh, have you got a Nike you know, you're gonna be able to do this here Reebok, is this here Adidas, is this here? Or is the shoes like not that much of a factor?

Dillon DeJesus 28:27

There's definitely there's definitely some you know, similarities across the entire spectrum of things certain brands are going to use higher quality materials the more expensive shoes you work with are typically you know going to be built better in a lot of cases and so yeah, I think the hardest part or the the easiest part to design would be I don't know the the cop out answer would be the laces but that's not really something you have to design but that's always the the last step and that's kind of fun to do.

Nick VinZant 29:01

What do you have to do with the laces? Do you just die um,

Dillon DeJesus 29:03

you just get to you get to pick any color you want or die um if you have a really specific shade of color that you need or I have an entire lace wall over here with 1000s of laces so whatever project I'm on I can head on over and I should be able to find something that fits for the given theme.

Nick VinZant 29:19

Do people still say what are those? What's your favorite shoe insult like somebody's shoes man what do you say?

Dillon DeJesus 29:28

The what are those was big fur was was was real big for a couple of years there I feel like that was that was definitely a point in sneaker lore history that it'll be hard to top that one so I think that that one is still that's the first one that comes to my mind when you ask you know what's your favorite sneaker and salt for sure.

Nick VinZant 29:52

Even I even that got to like my level of like, right,

Dillon DeJesus 29:55

right back. It

Nick VinZant 29:57

was fun and be fun.

Dillon DeJesus 29:58

There was the The Damn Daniel one for anybody who's wearing vans, there was a video that went around, maybe 2017 ish. And it was a couple kids at high school and every day, he'd go up to his friend and he'd say, Damn Daniel, and he had he was wearing vans every day. And that became something you would say to anybody out on the street wearing vans

Nick VinZant 30:19

is they're kind of like an untapped part of the shoe industry in the sense like, alright, a lot of people do in Jordans body people do in vans? Like, is anybody doing Crocs or something like that? Right? Is there like the next shoe that's gonna get this kind of treatment?

Dillon DeJesus 30:36

Yeah, so the hard part about crocs is their rubber rubber is pretty much impossible to paint and keep durable. So unfortunately, there's not a ton of custom painted cracks where I know crocs is really the way that they've added their customization is through people adding the charms onto their shoes. You know, picking your favorite characters, teams, whatever. little knickknacks that you put on there. So that's what they've done. In terms of other untapped markets. I mean, you know, no shoe you know, there's there's a slogan that a lot of people say that within my industry, then no shoe is safe. You know what I mean? And so every shoe can can head into somebody's cut into somebody's shoe do and get get the right treatment.

Nick VinZant 31:25

That's a good part of lingo man shoe. Do. I like that? Yeah. Celebrity with the best style. Who do you think's like, oh, that's the best celebrity sneaker head. I can't say the word sneaker head. I feel like a poser.

Dillon DeJesus 31:40

It's the first one that comes to mind just because just for everything he's done has to be Kanye. And his impact on the industry. I mean, he got his first Nike deal. Gosh, I don't know what year maybe 2009 2010, he released two silhouettes with Nike that were just absolutely ginormous. Then he signed a mega deal with Adidas, where he's had multiple different shoes. And he's somebody who's just had a huge impact on fashion sneaker culture. Some other rapidfire celebrities that I know have just had immaculate sneaker game over the years would be the rapper walay he probably has one of the craziest sneaker collections ever. Fat Joe. DJ Khaled. I mean, he gets his own Jordan colorways. J Balvin. has done a lot. In the last few years, he's had quite a few different Jordan collabs. So those are some of the quick ones that come to mind.

Nick VinZant 32:45

Are so looking at I pulled up some of your, your Instagram page looking at some of your shoes. So tell me about these man, that looks like a lot of work.

Dillon DeJesus 32:55

Yeah, so this was made for a YouTube video where we have a series called recreating your design. And so what we do is we open up the floor for our viewers, subscribers, and just fans of sneakers to design a shoe that then I'll try to recreate. So we had a few 100 entries for this project. And what we did is we set up almost like a March Madness style bracket where then our our followers and whatnot could vote on who would be the winner and the winning shoe, I would then try to recreate somebody else's design. So that's why I think this falls in line with what I talked about earlier is I like to not have one signature style, but I want to be able to handle anything that comes my way. And I think that this series, and this concept behind this piece really falls in line with that. So it's somebody else's design, to where now I have to get in their head, and try to think of how would you bring this design to life. So when I first saw the mock up for this piece, I thought, oh boy, where do you even begin on something like this? If you just if you just think of this as an all white shoe truly where do you start because of how busy it is and how much color there is and how many stencils are going to go into a piece like this. And so it was really interesting for me to try to reverse engineer things, so I can see the final product. And I know what we're going to be starting with an all white shoe. But you know, what's that journey going to be? Like? What are the steps we're gonna need to take to get there. So it was really challenging, but really fun to do. And I think that the end result came out just so amazing, something that I'm so proud of with, with how they turned out and I love that one of my favorite pieces that I've done was designed by somebody else, but I just had to have the technical know how to bring it to life. So I think that that's a lot of you know, what we sort of try to teach to you know, our students who attend our or courses and whatnot. And a lot of the techniques that we talked about on YouTube, really just being flexible and being able to break things down and visualize them and try to take the right steps to figure out what you're going to do next. Because I think that knowing what it was like being a younger artist, it's easy to want to throw in the towel, to have no idea how you're going to do certain things to look at artists, other artists that you look up to, and just constantly think, how do they make this look so easy? You know, how does everything that they do seems like it comes so natural to them, I know that that was what I was thinking when I was starting out. So it takes a long time to develop a process and to be confident in knowing that you're going to be able to figure something out like this just seeing the end product.

Nick VinZant 35:47

It looks it reminds me of like Saved by the Bell. Wired, Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

Dillon DeJesus 35:54

Yep. Yep. Just the 90s. You know, just just the nice, yeah, the you know, whether it's the cups or the, you know, the decor that you would see in Target or whatnot, just yeah, just pure 90s nostalgia, you know what I mean? So you're

Nick VinZant 36:08

now you're using a stencil on top of the shoe and then painting it or how does that work?

Dillon DeJesus 36:13

Yeah, so for this piece, a lot of it is stenciling, you know, to get a lot of the shapes and whatnot. All of those fun triangles and squares that you'll see. All of that does get stencils rather than hand painted. I'm somebody who likes to use stencils in my pieces to try to make them as clean and factory looking as possible. And I found that I'm able to get closer to that look using a stencil rather than just free handing everything. Yeah, like a ton of great artists do. But you know, I'm somebody who likes to use all the tools at my disposal. So I use stencils on a lot of my pieces.

Nick VinZant 36:50

Holy crap, man. That is a level of artistic detail that I would not think that you would be able to get onto.

Dillon DeJesus 37:00

Yeah, so if there was any shoe where I was, I was like to make the funny joke if if aliens were to invaders, which, who knows, and I had to show them a shoe, I had to show them a shoe to impress them, otherwise, they're going to destroy the entire planet. I think this is likely what I would try to show them from my catalogue, at least, you know. And it's funny because I'm not somebody who's a avid fan of anime. And this was a part of a gallery in Paris last year, where there was eight artists from the USA matched up against eight artists from France in an animate battle. And so an artist from the USA was matched up with one from France. And they both had to do their take on a given anime. So I was the captain of Team USA, and I was matched up with captain of Team France. And we were given the theme Dragon Ball and we got to do anything we wanted from the source material. And it was really cool, because almost all of the other participants, I think, all 16 Besides myself, were big anime fans. So I knew that I had to really live up to the task of knocking out a piece that was going to live up to what I knew everybody else was going to do, since they were such fans of the source material, all of the shoes that they do they live and breathe, you know, anime style pairs. So this was one where I said, Okay, you know, I can't, I can't leave any stone left unturned with what I'm going to do. So to paint four characters on the side of one shoe, is at that scale was incredibly time consuming. This was easily 100 to 100 I lost count, so 100 to 150 hour piece, probably. And so on one shoe I went with sort of like a good versus evil concept. So on the left shoe here, it's the four different stages of Goku. And then I think on the right shoe, it was four of the sort of the main villains from dry Oh, yeah, you could see there so freezes sell Majin boo. And yeah, that was that was the theme behind them.

Nick VinZant 39:12

How do you keep like, I would think that that Canvas necessarily the shoe, like when you press down on it, I would think that it'd be moving around on you.

Dillon DeJesus 39:21

How do you it is it is Oh yeah, totally especially because Jordan one has a lot of those different panels and stuff so it's just getting familiar with holding those everyday for years. You know, it's just that ends up being what you're used to working on. I'm more used to working on a surface that moves like that than I am just working on a flat canvas you know, like a traditional artist

Nick VinZant 39:42

that's really good man. Like I don't know anything about sneakers or art but like damn, like that looks like a computerized done you know like the detail the way

Dillon DeJesus 39:51

all that's the goal. That's the goal. It's fucking awesome.

Nick VinZant 39:55

Um, so like, when you do when you do you know a shoe like this Is it easier to do a more what I would call like a simpler shoe like a football cleat? Or is this more difficult?

Dillon DeJesus 40:10

football cleats are a lot of fun. And it's something that I'm glad I get to work on for a good four or five months of the year we're super busy with with NFL season, which is quickly approaching here in the fall. And what's interesting is the cleat that you have pulled up is something that's all one solid panel. And so it's a totally different Canvas than if you're working on something, you know, like a Jordan five that we have here where there's, you know, 1210 different panels stretched across the entire shoe. So just the way that you have to go about designing them is totally different. And they end up being aside from getting familiar with working on the different material, they end up being a little bit easier to work on, in my opinion, since you're working on one. It's not a flat surface all the way around, but one continuous surface. Whereas so much of what you know people who are into customizing shoes end up working on things like your Air Force ones, your Jordan ones, they just have so many different panels where you have to work on each panel separately, unless you have one continuous design cleats present a totally different challenge if it being one continuous surface. So this was made for the NFL is my cause my cleats that's the one week per year where every player is allowed to wear a pair with no restrictions and they're meant to be a part of a charity. So this was the Boys and Girls Club of South Florida. I can't even remember which one is River region, but that could be like River region. Okay, got any? Yeah. Yep. So they pick a charity or an organization that they want to represent. And then we get to do a fun pair of cleats inspired by it. So just a Boys and Girls Club. You know, I thought back to being a little kid playing with Hot Wheels and stuff like that. So I thought let's trick them out with some cool flames and do the colorway that they had for this Boys and Girls Club. So that's what we have here.

Nick VinZant 42:07

So do people actually were?

Dillon DeJesus 42:09

Absolutely I would say over time a lot of my pieces have eventually and just finding that specific clientele it ends up being people that are treating them more as art pieces and they're going to be displayed and things like that. But certainly there's there's a huge market of people that are into collecting custom shoes and wearing custom shoes and that's what a lot of our you know our YouTube videos are and how to actually make wearable custom shoes.

Nick VinZant 42:38

That's pretty much all the questions we got man's anything we think we missed or working people kind of learn more about you find out what you're doing.

Dillon DeJesus 42:46

Yeah, so you could check us out on YouTube at the Hey Zeus custom footwear. We have, I think around 225,000 ish subscribers. I think I've done almost 300 videos, tons of behind the scenes stuff of what's going on here in the studio Tips and Tricks tutorials. I have a few different series called reviewing your customs where I'll review other sneaker artists shoes, critique them give general feedback, things like that. And our Instagram is going to be the same at the Hayes's custom footwear. We have a three day sneaker course that we do here in Chicago called the DCF experience. We just hosted our fifth one. Our sixth one probably won't be till next spring, if I had to guess as of now, but if anybody's ever interested in learning more about the craft and getting some hands on training, you can check that out at a hazy sync.com

Nick VinZant 43:40

I want to thank Dylan so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have linked to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. If you want to see more of the shoes that he creates. The YouTube version of this episode will be live on August 24 at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Um, what article of clothing are you most sensitive about? Like, Oh, I hate it when I get this dirty. Or when this doesn't fit. You know, I'm

John Shull 44:22

pretty picky about my shirts. Like what part

Nick VinZant 44:26

of the shirt? Are you picky about cleanliness fit? What does it

John Shull 44:30

fit like because I'm a bigger guy, especially up top so like, you know if it's it needs to be a comfortable fit or I'm going to be self conscious out in public. So it needs to be of coming from a guy used to wear medium T shirts though. I also like I don't like I have to have a certain kinds of sock. Can't be like a long Sakis just to be an ankle sock.

Nick VinZant 44:52

You don't like people to be able to see your socks.

John Shull 44:55

No I don't actually if I if I could get away with like where wearing socks but not ever having to put them on. Like, if there was just a sock, always on my foot, I'd probably be okay with that.

Nick VinZant 45:07

I'm most sensitive, I think about T shirts, shirts, actually, but specifically the collar of a shirt. I hate a loose collar on a shirt. That drives me nuts. I hate a bad collar on a shirt.

John Shull 45:20

I've never understood people that wear clothes with holes. And like bacon neck on purpose. If you don't know bacon act as is essentially what you just described. It looks like a piece of well done bacon. But as a collar.

Nick VinZant 45:32

Oh, I don't like bacon neck. Wait a minute, though. If it's just from sweat, or if you've been like working in it all day. That's different. But if it's like just oh, he's got bacon neck, and you just put that on? I'm throwing that shirt away.

John Shull 45:49

Like, let me put it this way. If if you haven't been working, and you have means to buy a shirt that doesn't have a hole in it, and doesn't have bacon neck, but you choose to do so. You have no respect, in my opinion. I have no respect for you. Because of that.

Nick VinZant 46:07

What about going to the gym? Because I have several shirts that have holes in them that I wear to the gym? I

John Shull 46:12

mean, that's fine. I mean, you're working those holes didn't get there by themselves? Or maybe they never.

Nick VinZant 46:19

Yeah, I think they kind of did. I don't really ever know how I get holes in shirts. It's like always a mystery. Like, how did that happen?

John Shull 46:27

I get them in the same spot the armpit. I'm like, How does this happen? Are my arms rubbing together?

Nick VinZant 46:32

Do you think it's just your sweat? Like, there's just so much sweat. It goes through the shirt? Like how do you get a hole in the armpit first?

John Shull 46:41

I don't know. I'd actually don't for a big person or a bigger person. I still don't sweat as much as I think I should have. Or I should maybe you

Nick VinZant 46:50

don't drink enough water. What? Okay, what if you could get rid of one article of clothing entirely? Like you would never have to wear this again? What would you get rid of?

John Shull 47:00

That's easy underwear.

Nick VinZant 47:03

You can do that. Now though. That's arguably the article of clothing you can get away with man or woman not wearing right now.

John Shull 47:11

I mean, if you're asking for like a, I guess an essential everyday clothing item that I I could get rid of. I need to be honest, I don't really think I need to wear pants all the time.

Nick VinZant 47:25

I would get rid of pants. I hate pants. Like I don't like to have my ankle to knee covered generally. I like that flowing out. Freedom down there.

John Shull 47:38

I just for some reason, I don't have a lot of sensation below my thighs. So I can wear shorts in the winter. Obviously I wear them in the summer. I just pants. I'm just not I don't know if if my boss has to come to me and say, John, you don't have to wait for more bands to work anymore. You can just come but naked or an underwear. Okay,

Nick VinZant 48:01

what? I don't understand, like why bosses have a problem? Like all of those aren't professional. Those are shorts like real? Did you think I didn't have legs? Like they didn't? Like what's the big deal?

John Shull 48:12

I do think and this is a rant, so I won't go into it. But I do think as business changes. So is the thought process on you know, a person going to the office everyday doesn't have to wear a three piece suit. If you're never going to be doing anything that requires you to wear a suit, or or entertain or whatever, you know, you do.

Nick VinZant 48:35

I think it's kind of the opposite. And I was a person who used to hire people. Not like I was a hiring person. Like that wasn't my only job. But I was the hiring manager for stuff. And I would always go with the person that kind of looks like they don't give a damn because that probably means they're good enough at that job that they don't have to care. Like if you show up like all in a suit. All that kind of stuff. Like you're probably putting you probably a little bit more show than go.

John Shull 49:01

I mean, I think it's 5050 I think I think some candidates nowadays if they just get on there, and they just literally don't give a shit. They may not actually care.

Nick VinZant 49:12

Yeah, I'm okay with that though, too. Right? Like I think it is a whole is kind of realizing like this is just a job man. Like, what are you going to do for the Why do you want to work here? Because it gives me a paycheck like I don't care about this company. You don't care about me. Let's not pretend like this is some thing about a relationship, man. Just a job. Give me money I give you work. At work.

John Shull 49:36

Oh boy. Oh boy.

Nick VinZant 49:37

I can keep going on this forever. Although while I do not like pants that cover the whole leg. I'm a fan of long sheets, slight long sleeve shirts that cover the whole arm. I'd like to have my arms covered more than my legs.

John Shull 49:53

I mean, yes on that. But really for me, it's just the upper body and my you know pretty much if you You're just to go from my neck to my sideboob down to my you know my pubic area like that's it that's all I need cover

Nick VinZant 50:08

this guy really don't want to think about that at all also if you don't have feeling below your knees playing may need to go to the you may need to check up on him I know

John Shull 50:17

I have I have feeling but like I'm the kind of person that can i don't know i can wear short sleeve t shirt and shorts and 10 degree weather and I'm not bad like as long as I have gloves on and a hat on in some good shoes or boots. I'm not going to get that cold

Nick VinZant 50:38

okay, how long do you think you could last in 20 degree weather? Shoes on you got socks? Shorts long sleeve shirt and you have gloves? I agree if I have gloves on I'm generally that buys me an extra 10 degrees if my hands are warm How long do you think you can last in 20 degree temperature? Is a day or standing outside you're not running you're not doing you're just standing there is a day or night 20 degrees either way No. Let's I don't feel like it counts if the sun is shining directly on you because that can buy you a lot of time. I'm gonna say it's going to be noon but it's cloudy no direct sunlight do you feel is hitting your body and warming you 20 degrees

John Shull 51:23

I mean I well just standing there I'm gonna say less than 10 minutes.

Nick VinZant 51:28

Oh yeah, I guess that is actually really pretty cold. Yeah, it's I don't know you know what I would have been impressed with or been like oh, no way.

John Shull 51:36

I really don't we probably have had somebody on this podcast in the five years we've been doing it that's done something extreme like that. I'm sure

Nick VinZant 51:44

I like to be cool but I don't like to be cold

John Shull 51:49

I actually this past weekend I was in the sun a lot and you would never know it. Because I'm learning as I get older that I don't tan I turn red. And then I go back to pasty so it is what it is.

Nick VinZant 52:00

Like a brown hair ginger really?

John Shull 52:04

coming for me. My brother is a ginger so that would make sense.

Nick VinZant 52:09

Yeah, yeah, he's got to just ginger jeans but not the luggage. They just fake ginger.

John Shull 52:18

I don't even know where I was going with that. I don't even remember at this at this.

Nick VinZant 52:22

I just go into shell Yeah, let's

John Shull 52:23

just, let's just go to where we where we shine by giving people some shiny shout outs. All right. And by the way, my internet is back. You did I need to give you kudos on piecemealing last week's episode. Nobody understands how difficult it is to deal with me on a regular basis like you do, let alone it's frustrating. It's having to it's quite

Nick VinZant 52:47

terrible, honestly. But the thing is, is that you make it so much worse because you don't you refuse to listen or learn your lesson.

John Shull 52:54

You sound like my wife. Anyways, take the compliment. Last week's episode. If you haven't checked it out, you should because that's probably the most effort Nick's put into the podcast at least editing it so well done to you, sir. So here's, here's some shout outs. Katie Brown. Tom Wade, Mark Bortz Nicole P. Otro. Lily millets. I liked that name. Lily.

Nick VinZant 53:19

I like that name to Lily's a solid name.

John Shull 53:22

Charlie snow.

Nick VinZant 53:24

Charlie's okay. I know. Most Charlie's I don't know a lot of bad Charlie's. I had a list of like top tier medium bottom. I don't know any bottom tier Charlie's in terms of people.

John Shull 53:38

I just don't know if I know that many Charlie's maybe five.

Nick VinZant 53:44

I actually don't know. I can't think of a single one. Now that I think actually no one. I know one, Charlie. He's all right.

Unknown Speaker 53:51

Just in the middle.

Nick VinZant 53:52

Who's in the middle.

John Shull 53:54

Greg Josephson, Nadine Chavez, Derek perenco, and Tracy green. All get the shout outs of the week.

Nick VinZant 54:05

Tracy can be hit or miss.

John Shull 54:10

Like it just as the quality of

Nick VinZant 54:12

person. Yeah. Tracy's can generally be hit or miss.

John Shull 54:16

I found that Tracy's with an IE. Fantastic. Ey like this Tracy is or seems to be pretty good. Okay. But if you just tell why. Sometimes it can be borderline.

Nick VinZant 54:33

Have you ever had somebody in your contact list is completely the wrong name?

John Shull 54:37

Yes, actually. Multiple people one person. I thought his name was something for two years until he told me that's not actually how you say it. And that's not how you spell it.

Nick VinZant 54:52

But is it a name like he was close enough? Like no, my name is not Tom. It's thought

John Shull 54:58

like yeah, yes. Similar to that, I mean, I haven't

Nick VinZant 55:02

calling him Steve and his name was Greg. The problem is I

John Shull 55:05

don't like remember people's names. But I haven't, like, made that big of an error in my contact list that I know, that I know of. I have put people down as wrong, like are the wrong people. And then when they message me, I'm like, Oh, hey, Tony. And he's like, this isn't Tony, this is the

Nick VinZant 55:23

so what's your how do you how do you have your wife and your phone contact?

John Shull 55:27

I think we've talked about this. Okay, but how do you have it?

Nick VinZant 55:32

Oh, he got it. And there's a nickname don't you?

John Shull 55:37

You ever in there as Bob's? That's wobs. But yes. Oh, sorry. I mean,

Nick VinZant 55:45

that's just not that's not You're not thinking ahead, right. You're a parent. Now. You've got to plan ahead. If you're like, I need somebody to call my wife who's his wife. It's under wubs. I mean, by now, you got to plan ahead on this. You got to have government name.

John Shull 55:59

I mean, I'm hoping that if I am in that situation, it does say, you know, in case of emergency Melissa Shoal, but you know, I'm hoping if I'm ever that incapacitated, somebody's like, Who's this wubs that is called 47 times.

Nick VinZant 56:14

Man. What if you had like a mistress? And they just checked like most recent, like communications and they call it your mistress or something like that. That has to have happened at some point in history. That has to have happened where they call like, the mistress are the what's the male equivalent of a mistress? Mister? Is there a male equivalent of there has to be misters but I don't know what it is.

John Shull 56:41

Never heard of this before. A Paramore.

Nick VinZant 56:47

Oh, like the band?

John Shull 56:50

No. It's spelled pa ra m o u r?

Nick VinZant 56:56

How do you spell the band?

John Shull 56:59

i Oh, it's an M O R E.

Nick VinZant 57:02

O clever. Clever. Same word different spelling.

John Shull 57:07

But you also have sugar baby kept man or toy boy. Or sugar daddy as well. So

Nick VinZant 57:16

yeah, but I think those are different than just being a mistress. I think a Paramore is probably the male equivalent anyway. It's

John Shull 57:22

also a master can be masculine while mistress is feminine. But I don't think anyone's gonna say, Hey, I'm cheating with my master batches. Sounds terrible.

Nick VinZant 57:32

I think in certain communities, that's a whole other topic. Right? Like you're getting into some shit there. You're like, well, you know, it's good. If you call. Just I'm actually the what do they call the Master? No, I'm not his wife. I'm his dominatrix. Like, well, can you come down here and pick him up? Because he's? Yeah, okay.

John Shull 57:56

All right. Well, after last week's technical challenges, we're bringing back Profoundly Pointless factor fiction. Before

Nick VinZant 58:08

we started calling it the

John Shull 58:12

Profoundly Pointless factor fiction. I've booked up right. They just call it the Profoundly Pointless Fact or Fiction. That better? All right. So they are funny to me. So I'm gonna if you're if you're just tuning in for the first time in a month and a half, I think people get what fac basically give Nick four things? He hasn't. He's kind of on a cold streak. He hasn't he hasn't been doing I don't think that

Nick VinZant 58:47

you have any accurate record keeping of what nice streak actually,

John Shull 58:51

you were I think you were four No, four, no. And then you were like two and two and one and three. So

Nick VinZant 58:57

that's, that's pretty good. That's over 50% foreign for well, you

John Shull 59:04

can fail with 50 percents to 10

Nick VinZant 59:06

to 11 to 11 out of 16. That's pretty good.

John Shull 59:11

All right, well, let's go. Let's see if you get this one. Right. And a group of 23 people, there's more than a 50% chance that two of them share a birthday. True or false?

Nick VinZant 59:26

I would say that's probably false.

John Shull 59:29

And that is actually correct. Okay, with a group of 57 people, the probability of two people sharing a birthday goes up to 99%

Nick VinZant 59:41

with 57 people Yeah, I don't know a single other person that has this. I know way more than 57 people and I don't know a single other person that has the same birthday as I am. I'm gonna go ahead and say I think most people probably know between 500 and 1000 people have met or known at least 500 to 1000 people would you agree with that statement?

John Shull 1:00:03

Sure.

Nick VinZant 1:00:05

I don't know a single person who has my birthday. Do you know anybody who shares a birthday with you? Yeah. Coworker because, uh, one person out of how many.

John Shull 1:00:15

I mean, I, maybe other people do. I mean, I don't know everyone's birthday off the top of my head.

Nick VinZant 1:00:20

Maybe I guess I don't really know a lot of people's birthday. That's not the kind of thing that I would ever remember to be honest with. You.

John Shull 1:00:26

See, so maybe more people share your birthday.

Nick VinZant 1:00:29

That's it legitimately think. I probably only know I don't know your birthday. September 8. No third. Oh, I was decently close. Can you guess mine?

John Shull 1:00:40

already have it on my iPhone calendar. You should actually

Nick VinZant 1:00:43

know it. As it may know, Stone Cold Steve Austin? Oh, yeah.

John Shull 1:00:50

March 16. Are 16 Yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:00:52

that's the only reason. Okay. Well, that's

John Shull 1:00:53

why I'll never forget it. Now.

Nick VinZant 1:00:56

I just feel like that's not really true. Like, I understand that mathematically. That's probably true. But I think if you had a bunch of people that were all together, like nobody has the same birthday.

John Shull 1:01:04

All right. Well, let's see if you can redeem yourself with this one here. toilet seats are full of germs. True or False?

Nick VinZant 1:01:13

Well, I mean, what's your what's your definition of full love? So like, yeah, anything's full of germs. Like your face is full of germs. I think anything is full of it. I

John Shull 1:01:23

think it's a I think it's a known thing that people are afraid sometimes to use public restrooms because they think they're full of germs.

Nick VinZant 1:01:34

You're gonna sit down bare cheeks on a public restroom? Am I absolutely yeah. You go bare cheeks in a public restroom. I

John Shull 1:01:43

mean, it depends where I'm at. But I will sure.

Nick VinZant 1:01:47

Even at work, are you going to do bare cheeks at work?

John Shull 1:01:49

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I go to the nice Matthews go to the nicer but everybody

Nick VinZant 1:01:53

goes to the nice bathroom. I wouldn't go big. Are you serious? You go bare cheeks at work?

John Shull 1:02:02

I let my my two young daughters go bear cheek? I mean, well, I mean, what's gonna happen? I mean, why would they have to go eight times a shopping trip, like, I'm not going to take the time to, you know,

Nick VinZant 1:02:17

protect your children's health and well being I understand.

John Shull 1:02:20

Anyways, that is

Nick VinZant 1:02:22

I'm not going to take this, I'm not going to take the time to look both ways. When I cross the street. I look one way and then I just go and hope the other way stops by the time I get there.

John Shull 1:02:30

Well, it's to add to this the there was a study done by the University of Arizona, which found after you probably been to some places that they tested the toilet seats that that toilet seats are actually relatively clean compared to normal everyday services that we use every day, including workspaces, kitchen counters, and tray tables.

Nick VinZant 1:02:55

Yeah, but I'm not going I cannot think of a single public place. Not a single one where I would go bear cheeks, hotel, I guess a hotel would be the only thing where somebody else might be doing that. That I'm going bedsheet, okay, if you are not if the house if any area is comprised of someone besides a blood relation of mine, going there, I'm not going bare cheeks.

John Shull 1:03:22

Okay, let's, the University of Arizona also put this little nugget in the in this this story or whatever, that their study found that cell phones are 10 to 25 times more germy than the dirtiest toilet seat that they that they tested.

Nick VinZant 1:03:43

They're going to tell you they did where did they test? They go to a concert festival in the middle of summer, because I'm gonna go ahead and say no on that.

John Shull 1:03:49

Well, actually, it's kind of funny. I asked I brought this question up because it leads to a story which is gonna gross you out now because I don't

Nick VinZant 1:03:59

want to hear it if it's gonna gross me out. Okay, hey, gross stuff. All right. Isn't that good of a story. Tell me a scale of one to 10 how good the story well, it has to Brahman ate.

John Shull 1:04:08

It has to do with a public restroom and myself. Okay, so I was I was I was going to the bathroom. And I was one or two a one. And I was I was I was getting ready to get done. And I had set my phone next to the toilet. And I was like I said I was getting done doing what you can imagine. And I brought my elbow up knocking the phone into the toilet. Got the phone out. Little I didn't even think anything of it. It was still working great. was until I got home when I realized maybe I should have watched this off with a lifestyle wipe. I guess that's an honest to god story that just happened last week actually.

Nick VinZant 1:05:00

Where was the what restroom was it? Were we talking? Are we talking work? We talked what what was the where was the restroom?

John Shull 1:05:06

It was a work bathroom.

Nick VinZant 1:05:09

Slightly not so bad a little bit. Oh, it was like if you were like at a Home Depot, like,

John Shull 1:05:17

oh, this and that was terrible. I I washed my face probably 50 times after I realized it's too late now it was too late. I mean, I ended up to my ear. I probably had shit flying in my mouth like it was. Yeah, but anyways, so just to go along with you wash your hands to oh, I watched every I mean I watched everything.

Nick VinZant 1:05:38

I can't believe you go bare cheeks at work. I wouldn't go bare cheeks and a sink. That's to me is like, Okay, let me give you a list of places and you tell me if you will go.

John Shull 1:05:47

Oh, my coworkers are okay. Yes.

Nick VinZant 1:05:50

Work, obviously. Yes. Work. Yes to work. Public Library. Yeah. Retail Store but it's a little bit nicer. I'm talking to like a Barnes and Noble. Macy's.

John Shull 1:06:06

How about I make this easy? I'll make this easy for you. There's only a few places tell me where you won't tell me where you go. Like a truckstop. Yeah. Like, I don't know how to put this without offending people. But like, like a grocery store or a retail store that doesn't keep their bathrooms clean. Like where they have the you know, needs to be checked every six hours. And you can tell the last time Bob checked. It was three weeks ago. Me and I wouldn't go baertschi and stadiums. I will not. I will not drop it down and go bare cheeks in stadiums if, unless I'm in it when no one else is there. Which is you know, never happened.

Nick VinZant 1:06:49

What about an airport? Yeah. I can't I honestly cannot believe this, to me is one of the grossest things I've ever heard. I could not I could not go bare cheeks at an airport. I mean, like, you got to peel yourself off.

John Shull 1:07:05

No, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've I guess I can rephrase that. I'll go in airports that have nicer bathrooms, like no offense to, I don't know like Atlanta, but I'm not going to you know, you probably use Atlantis baths are too busy, too busy. But like Detroit, they have a very nice bathroom area. Or Lando had a very nice bathroom la like, you know, Washington DC, probably not going to use their bathrooms because, you know, but also, that doesn't mean I won't and in airports.

Nick VinZant 1:07:37

I wouldn't go bare cheeks. I go, I don't even know if I'd go less. I don't even think that I would go single, single thing. Like single toilet cover. I'd probably do double toilet cover anywhere I go.

John Shull 1:07:48

I just and I don't think once again kinda like how we started this debate or debate this discussion? I don't think there's as many germs on even if somebody was to rub their shit all over it. I think the error kills most things like it's gonna be disgusting. But I don't know if there's a lot that you can get even that way. I mean, times you

Nick VinZant 1:08:09

have COVID seems to be a pattern of you getting like, look, I don't get sick. You get sick every fucking week. Maybe you should adjust your limiting. Right? Like, what? My way seems to be working. I don't know about yours.

John Shull 1:08:25

I mean, you know, it's it is what it is, man. It is. Right. Anyways, let's see. Two out of four. Here we go. Let's see. Number three, true or false? Ah, you lose most of your body heat through your head. That's not true. That is not true. You are correct. You actually only lose according to the British Medical Journal. And I hope that that's a reputable medical journal. About seven to 10% You'll lose a lot more through your hands, shoulders and ankles. Which doesn't. Also doesn't seem right to me. But I guess your ankles is why your toes would get cold. Maybe I have no idea. It's probably like a surface

Nick VinZant 1:09:09

area thing. I have no idea. I'm just I did ankles doesn't seem like just yeah, you're just venting it out the ankle. I would I would have guessed like armpit or something like that. Yeah. Okay.

John Shull 1:09:22

All of the electricity powering the internet in the entire world. If you were to ball that all that up, would only weigh as much as an apricot.

Nick VinZant 1:09:34

I don't think electricity weighs very much. That seems like something that's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna guess true.

John Shull 1:09:40

It is true. Yes. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 1:09:42

How much does an apricot weigh? I mean, electricity. That's probably actually a lot of electricity if you had to do it by weight, because you're essentially doing something that way. Like you're weighing electrons or whatever. It's just Yeah, it's probably actually a lot.

John Shull 1:09:55

I have no idea but maybe we can get an internet expert on here and they can tell us how much the internet actually ways.

Nick VinZant 1:10:01

Can you tell the difference if some of you blind walked into a grocery store and there was just two bushels sitting there you can tell the difference between apricot and a nectarine? No. Apricot and a peach.

John Shull 1:10:14

Maybe more confident in that than the first one.

Nick VinZant 1:10:18

I think I actually now that I think of what an apricot looks like, it's fairly easy to tell what they are but a nectarine and a peach. I don't think that I could tell the difference and like I bet got like a look unless it was one of those Fuzzy Peaches.

John Shull 1:10:29

You're talking to a guy that spends more time picking out which kind of Apple to buy than actually grocery shopping. So

Nick VinZant 1:10:36

what food what fruit or vegetable Do you think that like, Oh, I know how to pick a good one of those. What's your best like, Ooh, I mean, John did pick it. He knows how to pick a good this.

John Shull 1:10:51

I'm pretty good at picking out sweet corn, like in the summer. Pretty good at getting like Good, good, ripe pieces of corn that just tastes amazing.

Nick VinZant 1:11:00

Mine's watermelon, I can pick a good watermelon. It's not the sound. By the way. For anybody listening. The hollow sound thing is not really true. What you're actually looking for is a uniform greenness. A uniform circular reality, I don't know circuit like it's got to be kind of, it doesn't have to be completely circular. But it needs to be uniform from the front to the back. And you look for a uniform greenness. And then on the bottom of it, you want it to be pretty yellow and flat. Sure, not the sound. It's not the sound. It's not I mean, the sound plays a role. But people get caught up in the sound knocking on it. You look like a rookie. I'm just telling you, I see somebody knocking on watermelon and not looking at the colors. I'm going to go ahead and point that out that that's a person that's opposed and doesn't really know what's going on.

John Shull 1:11:45

So I have one final question about the bathroom discussion. So if you have to drop Chow, you're doing it right. You're just going to layer up the toilet.

Nick VinZant 1:11:53

Yeah, dude, you can't really fight that bodily urge, or I'm going to hover. I'm not my mind. I would not set not only my cheeks, but my nothing below my knee is ever touching any sort of public restroom? I don't I don't know. I'm not touching it.

John Shull 1:12:13

I've hovered once, and it was maybe the most uncomfortable poop I've ever taken. So

Nick VinZant 1:12:19

it's the only reason I do legs at the gym. So I can be built up and strong. So I can hover no matter where I'm at. It's why

John Shull 1:12:26

your calves are immaculate. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:12:29

that's great cast, baby. Are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 1:12:32

I am, it should be a fun one.

Nick VinZant 1:12:34

So our top five is top five worst lines to wait in? What's your number five.

John Shull 1:12:39

So this is my number five, I think it'd be most women's number one or number two. But because I'm a man, my number five is going to be like bar bar, bar bathrooms, like waiting in line at a bar to go to the bathroom or club.

Nick VinZant 1:12:56

Oh, I can see some but there's some people, right? Like, if this was your hustle, this was your hustle. But there was some people that would kind of hang out by the bathroom line. Because there's a little bit of a captive audience. Yeah, it used to be a strategy that some people would employ. My number five is also a bathroom, but it's specifically an airport bathroom. Okay, because if there's a line in the early morning, like I just don't like the idea of like, I know what you just did. And I'm gonna go in there to do that. And there's three other people who are in line enemy that are also just did that I'm not messing with that. And you're gonna go bear cheeks in there, when there's a line six or seven deep to go to the one stall where everybody's doing that. And you're just gonna walk in there and go bear cheeks after it.

John Shull 1:13:44

I mean, obviously, if it looks like it needs a little dusting, I'm going to dust it up. But if it looks fine, and there it's relatively quaint and clean. Sure. I'll drop trowel and do my business.

Nick VinZant 1:13:55

I now but wait a minute. Is this really a thing that like, look, I really don't think that this is that big of a public health issue. I'm really not worried about germs. You're just being lazy.

John Shull 1:14:05

No, I'm just I'm just not not that worried about germs. I mean, this is gonna sound really gross to a lot of people. But for the for the longest time. I never washed my hands after going to the bathroom until I was old enough to realize you know, some of the germs that you can give yourself if you don't wash your hands

Nick VinZant 1:14:26

Oh, I don't really wash my hands if I go number one. I mean I know I'm I'm an adult I know how not to pee on my own hands.

John Shull 1:14:33

That's just because you don't need assistance it just anyways.

Nick VinZant 1:14:37

Right? I don't know you go with that one. But okay, what's your number four

John Shull 1:14:42

you know what, I don't really know where I was go with that one either. Airport security, or really what's your number for really any? I was trying to find a way to like wrap it it's really any kind of like getting into an events, but like, like airport security. So really waiting To get into an event going through security I guess, because it doesn't matter if you you know no one wants to do it for one and then you know it's just you get nervous everyone you know if you say you're not nervous going through security you're a fraud because you're always is the thing gonna go off who ever take off my belt buckle you know if you're in an airport like you could get you can miss your flight if they detain you for further questioning, like, just nervous.

Nick VinZant 1:15:29

I always feel like that when I have like I went through customs today because I was heading back from Canada and I have legitimately kind of wondered is like, oh, there's no, like, is there a desert Okay, in the car? I don't think I got anything right. But as you never know. Yeah, right. You might have had a long night one night not realized what you did. My number four is a theme park. I hate waiting in line at theme park. It's a 45 minute wait for a 45 second ride. I hate a theme park line. So I have never worked never worth it.

John Shull 1:16:01

I agree with you so much in fact that I have it way further up on the list. But that

Nick VinZant 1:16:07

is probably the lowest return on investment line weight that you could ever imagine. Is it theme park ride?

John Shull 1:16:16

No, I actually my number three I think maybe worse in terms of in return of investment but I have any kind of like holiday shopping lines or Black Friday lines. So really holiday shopping lines. I don't really shop brick and mortar much anymore. But I would never wait in those lines. Best part was being with my father who would get really angry make a scene and then we would storm out of their stores.

Nick VinZant 1:16:46

Because he had to wait in the line. Did he see the line ahead of him? Of course. But you know, that's a lot. A line is never a surprise. Like you know what you're getting into like, oh, you know, and you can do okay,

John Shull 1:16:57

it's just for what I think it's ridiculous and to muscle things now you can buy online, maybe cheaper than waiting outside and 10 degree weather.

Nick VinZant 1:17:07

Yeah, I don't do any of that. I'm not buying anything in store on any of those hobbies. My number three I think is going to be underrated. But my number three is a gas station line to get gas because it's always a little bit unclear who's next. Somebody might be backing in somebody might be pulling through and you might not know that somebody else is in line like that is the line that is the least like align. But it's a pain in the ass. You got to get the right side. You got to get the right car. You don't know. Like that's a crapshoot.

John Shull 1:17:37

Yeah, so my, my my number two is kind of like that. It's like a, like a restaurant like a an ice cream shop or a fast food line. Like, you know, you wait and you wait and you wait. It's kind of like the gas station. And you're like, why am I waiting here? I just it may you know, but you wait.

Nick VinZant 1:17:58

My number two is like the bar line when you're just up at the bar, and it's never clear. Like Well, who's next? Who's Oh, man? Is it yours? There's no line real? You

John Shull 1:18:10

just got to take it. All right, you just got to do it. Like, you just got to go and just just take ownership of that line.

Nick VinZant 1:18:19

That's not actually my number two. Now that I realized that my number two is the DMV. Oh, waiting for it. And I could expand that to any sort of public line. Any sort of public service line like going to the DMV? Yeah, utilities. Driver's License. Yeah. Well, Anna for the water, he would any kind of like public service line.

John Shull 1:18:39

Thankfully now at least in Michigan, you can schedule ahead of time, so you don't have to wait in those lines. But yeah, back in the day when computers weren't a thing. You would wait hours just waiting there with the rest of the world. It's terrible.

Nick VinZant 1:18:55

Are you number two? Are you number one,

John Shull 1:18:56

I'm number one, which if you've been listening to this, you know, my number one is going to be theme park rides.

Nick VinZant 1:19:01

Yeah, it's it's pretty bad.

John Shull 1:19:03

It's terrible because most of the theme parks are in warm places. So not only are you you know, are you sweating like a pig? Like if you go to Disney World? That's a two hour wait to ride the teacups. I mean, give me a break and you do it anyways.

Nick VinZant 1:19:18

What's the longest you've ever waited in line?

John Shull 1:19:22

Oh, I mean, probably an hour.

Nick VinZant 1:19:27

For a theme park.

John Shull 1:19:29

Oh theme I waited four plus hours to ride a roller coaster at Cedar Point one time in Ohio.

Nick VinZant 1:19:35

That sounds awful. That said Was it worth it

John Shull 1:19:39

a minute? 30? No. If you think about it, it's no I mean, I you could have written you could have written 12 other rides. Instead you waited for you know, a buck 30 at a time it was great. But when you look at it, it's like what was I doing?

Nick VinZant 1:19:55

My number one is airport anything. Every line at the airport is awful. From the check in line, the baggage line, the TSA line The line and get on the plane, the line to get off the plane. Everything at the airport is awful. But if I had to pick a specific part, a specific area or a specific line at the airport, it would be the customer service line after everybody's flight gets canceled, because it's just like, you're fucked. How fucked Are you?

John Shull 1:20:24

Yeah, see, and I haven't really experienced that actually, every time I've flown so far has been fine service. Um, but I've seen it, and that that could easily be top five for me. I'm gonna put on my honorable mention, just because I haven't really experienced the whole you know, flight cancellation line yet, but I'm sure it will sooner than later.

Nick VinZant 1:20:45

What how do you not have a canceled flight yet in your life?

John Shull 1:20:48

Never haven't had not had not have had one in my entire life.

Nick VinZant 1:20:53

You've never not even a delayed flight. I've had a delayed flight but not

John Shull 1:20:57

one to where like they call or come over the intercom. And I was like, flight t 001. is canceled. That's the worst feeling

Nick VinZant 1:21:05

man. And I

John Shull 1:21:07

flown in the winter. I mean, I've flown you know, in bad weather? I don't know. Because, yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:21:13

maybe that's the secret going bear cheeks at places. Maybe you get sick a lot. But your airport airport line doesn't get

John Shull 1:21:20

screwed. You hear this voice? You're not going to hear it this way. Next week. I'm gonna have a sniffle or a cold or something. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 1:21:26

What's your flights on time? What's your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:21:29

Not that many things. So I have I have like bathroom lines, just in general, like sporting events, which we kind of already talked about. The DMV was on there. I also have in this this is old school but like toy store lines. Like when you would go to a toy store as a kid. And you were so excited to get get your toy and then you'd realize you have to wait in line for 30 minutes before you could open it. It's just a just defeating.

Nick VinZant 1:21:56

I don't have a lot and my honorable mentioned but I have rental car. rental car waiting for a rental cars bad a pharmacy waiting in line and a pharmacy to me is awful. Yeah, like is it going to be ready? How much is this going to cost me is insurance paying for it? Why is this person ahead of me asking 50,000 questions like this person is a doctor. Like Well, what do I take over my knee? I don't know, dude, pick up your prescription.

John Shull 1:22:20

I do I do. I will add a hospital like waiting room lines. Like ER room lines, though. I know. You know, they're moving at their own pace. But

Nick VinZant 1:22:30

I mean, if you the only thing is I would say that's not really a line. No, but I mean stand in there. Yeah, but

John Shull 1:22:36

you go in there with your finger cut off and you have to wait an hour because Johnny brown next to you is having a heart attack. Come on.

Nick VinZant 1:22:44

Yeah, that's weird how they just you know, do it based on priority, right? Look, man, I got a really bad headache. Well, he's been shot 20 times and take care of him first. Take care of me. Help me? Um, is there any good line? Do you have any good line? Like, well, I'm waiting in line for this cocaine. Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance. Leave us a review doesn't have to be anything big. Just a couple of quick words really helps us out. And let us know what you think are some of the worst lines to wait in. I really don't know how you're going to be theme parks or the airport. Those seem just awful to me, but at least a theme park. You can just leave. You don't you don't really have to be there. An airport. You're just stuck. There's nothing you can do.

Underwater Model Linnea Snyderman

Linnea Snyderman is taking modeling in a new direction. One that creates unique images that are both timeless and ethereal. We talk underwater modeling, forging your own path and the challenges of underwater photography. Then, we countdown the Top 5 TV Show Themes.

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Interview with Underwater Model Linnea Snyderman

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, underwater modeling, and TV show themes,

Linnea Snyderman 0:21

so much chlorine and this dress that wanted to drown me and we did a shoot and after afterwards I just that I just thought like this is this is exactly what I want to do suspended in time and reality. So it gives a really dreamy look to the images. If you shoot for too long in chlorine, what happens is, it looks like you're in an old timey movie, you're you have this like flashback scene where everything's hazy, and every light has this big ring of light around it.

Nick VinZant 0:50

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is taking modeling in a new direction. Underwater. It's something that's both incredibly difficult. And amazing to see. This is underwater model. Linnaeus, Sniderman. So how is underwater modeling different than other types of modeling?

Linnea Snyderman 1:29

So I don't consider myself a model. I consider myself an underwater model, because it's only taking place under the surface of the water. So it can be any body of water can be a pool, a lake or river, an ocean. But yeah, you're submerged fully underwater,

Nick VinZant 1:47

I guess. How did you get into that? Right? Like, that doesn't seem like the natural Avenue,

Linnea Snyderman 1:53

right? Absolutely. So I got into this over 10 years ago, my aunt and uncle have a friend who is a director and he was making an underwater film. And he just wanted to do some test shots. And so I got in a public pool with him. So much chlorine, and this dress that wanted to drown me and we did a shoot. And after afterwards, I just said, I just thought like this is this is exactly what I want to do. I love the water. So I'm a water baby. And I'm a professional dancer as well. So I just combined two things that I absolutely love more than anything and combine my passions.

Nick VinZant 2:28

Why is this this thing? I guess, in that sense, right? Like, okay, but why do this?

Linnea Snyderman 2:34

Right? Well, it's a thing because not everyone can do it. A lot of people have trouble staying underwater, you know, being comfortable in the water. So there's a small amount of people that can actually achieve modeling underwater, it's a lot harder than it seems. And it's something that fortunately came very naturally to me. And it's just something that just felt like this is what I was meant to do. It's unique. It's gives a completely different perspective to a to an image or a video, we'll show

Nick VinZant 3:06

some of the images on screen for people who maybe are looking at this on YouTube or things like that. But like, how would you describe the kind of look of the images, I guess?

Linnea Snyderman 3:18

Yeah, I think of them, at least what I like to do is very artistic and ethereal. You have this sense. I mean, you're obviously weightless. So you have this sense of weightlessness. And there's no time it's just suspended in time and reality. So it gives a really dreamy look to the images.

Nick VinZant 3:36

I'm gonna go all psychological here that I've heard that the water represents our unconscious, in some ways that that is that is supposedly what water represents, which is why you always see it in like movies and TV shows and things like that. Yeah, I would obviously like the first one. I saw some images like Oh, ethereal is the word that is like, oh, word, right? Yeah,

Linnea Snyderman 3:58

absolutely.

Nick VinZant 4:00

Is there a lot of this being done?

Linnea Snyderman 4:02

You know, it's a fast growing field. Honestly, underwater modeling. I think a lot of people are catching on to it, and everyone wants to try it. And some people can do it. And some people have a lot of trouble with it. But it's definitely growing, you're starting to see a lot more underwater in films and TV commercials, print ads for fashion, it's growing rapidly. But when I first got into underwater modeling, it wasn't really a thing. And then you have the mermaid thing, which is a whole separate a separate category. But what I do is art is what I consider it to be

Nick VinZant 4:37

No, wait a minute, is there a little tension between the underwater modeling community and the mermaid community? Because my mind is just picked up a little bit. Is there a little tension there?

Linnea Snyderman 4:48

I think there is a little bit of tension because a lot of people say oh, you're a mermaid, and I have to correct them. Well, I'm a mermaid without the tail. Because I do consider those to be very different things. I think mermaid thing is, it lives in the fantasy world, which is beautiful on its own. What I do is more in the artistic world. It's not entertainment, it's art.

Nick VinZant 5:11

So like when we kind of get into the techniques of it, though, so to speak, right, like, what do you have to do is an underwater model that you wouldn't have to do on a land shoot, I know, I want to use the word normal. But you know, and I call it on

Linnea Snyderman 5:25

land shoot. I have a photo shoot that's not in the water. I'm like, today I'm shooting on land. Now, that's a great question. I think. So I'm a scuba diver. And I've been scuba diving since I was 14 years old. And scuba diving teaches you buoyancy control. And that is basically what separates on land modeling from underwater modeling, you have to figure out how much air is in your lungs? Where do I want the shot? Where does the photographer want the shot? Do you want to be at the surface of the water? Do you want to be at the bottom? Or do you want to be suspended floating in the middle of the water. And that all depends on your lungs and buoyancy control. So for example, if you want to be at the top of the pool or the surface of water, you need to have more air in your lungs. If you want to be floating, beautifully suspended in time and space, you let out about half of your air. And if you want to go all the way to the bottom of the water, you're going to let out all of your air before you submerge. And that takes a lot of practice. I'm also a free diver. So the freediving the scuba diving has helped me so much with the underwater modeling as well. And just general comfort in the water is definitely necessary.

Nick VinZant 6:39

How long would you say that it took you to really get good at it.

Linnea Snyderman 6:42

I don't, I don't want to sound braggy as you were saying, but honestly, it's something that came super super naturally to me. And I just I credit that to my comfort in the water, since you know childhood, and then my dancing ability. So being a professional dancer, for many, many years taught me what my body looks like in space and how to move in space. So I almost know exactly what I'm going to look like from the cameras perspective, just from my years of ballet in front of a mirror.

Nick VinZant 7:16

Can Have you seen other models transition?

Linnea Snyderman 7:19

Yeah. So I think it's it's much easier if you have a performing or a dance background, because you just have that awareness of pointing your feet and how to control your body and space. But I've definitely seen people that you know, aren't as comfortable in the water. So you're so focused on your breath and how you can't breathe. So there's a huge range of comfort in the water, it's you have to think about a million things when you're doing it. So on land, you're just breathing air. But underwater, you're not only controlling your breath and where you are in space, but you're controlling the way your hair and your clothes, move in the water, and then you're posing, and then you're trying not to run out of breath. And then you're pointing your toes. And then you know, there's just a Do I have time to get to the surface. There's just a lot more involved underwater.

Nick VinZant 8:09

So when we talk about like, basically who's kind of paying for these campaigns, what kinds of campaigns like what are these images and videos and things like that, like what are they generally being used for

Linnea Snyderman 8:21

a lot of what I do is work for trade. And it's just a beautiful artistic shoot that I'm doing with the photographer, I'm getting images to post on my website, my social media platforms. And that's a lot of what it is. But when I do get paid for shoots, it's either just coming directly from the photographer, or, say you're doing a print ad or a commercial, you're definitely going to be paid better for something like that, or a music video. So I've done I've done some of those bigger paid jobs as well. But mainly what I do is just for the love of it, it's just being creative in the water. And that's honestly, I haven't put as much pressure on myself to make it a full time career just because there isn't enough work out there, at least in exactly what I do.

Nick VinZant 9:11

Do you think that it's gonna get to that? Or is this like, yeah, this might get a little bit more popular, but it's always going to kind of be right in that area.

Linnea Snyderman 9:19

I think in order to make money at the underwater modeling thing, you have to be incredibly present on social media. It's all about social media. So the Pete the few people that are making money doing this, they are teaching workshops, they're bringing people to exotic locations and teaching them how to do underwater modeling, or underwater photography. And that sounds great, but that means you are just on social media all day every day. And I don't think that you have to be able to edit all of your stuff. You have to be making content, putting it out every day and that's just I just want to come in and do the thing. I know. I know. don't want to do all the computer stuff. So I've I've decided I would rather just do this because I love to do it and not put in that all day every day on the grind computer. Tick tock Instagram reels. It's just too much for me personally,

Nick VinZant 10:17

it kind of sounds like right like the way to make money is to be less of a model and more of an influencer.

Linnea Snyderman 10:23

Absolutely. 100%

Nick VinZant 10:26

Is it cold? Feels like it would be cold. You mean the water? Yeah, like,

Linnea Snyderman 10:32

Okay, this is. So at this point in my career. I hate shooting in cold water. Honestly, I hate it. I'm always cold. So either I'll shoot in the summer. I mean, I live in Los Angeles. It's really warm in the summer. So most pools even if they're not heated, they're fine in the summer, in the winter would have to be heated pool. I'm not getting into a freezing cold pool. Absolutely not. And I get a lot of requests to shoot in the ocean here in, you know, in Catalina, and off the coast of you know, Los Angeles, and I just I refuse, I just cannot handle the cold. It's way too cold here.

Nick VinZant 11:13

Yeah, I don't think that maybe people who live in other parts of the country because I live on the West Coast. I live in Seattle. And like the water up here is freezing. Like it's 50s. And like, yeah, you can do it. But you can't really do it for very long, right? Well, as soon

Linnea Snyderman 11:29

as you're too cold your breath hold goes. I mean, you have no breath hold once you're cold. When I'm free diving in California, I can barely hold my breath. If I'm free diving in the Bahamas, you know, I'm good to go.

Nick VinZant 11:42

That kind of like basically leads us into some of our listeners submitted questions. So are you ready for some listeners harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, I love that best place to shoot worst place that you've shot,

Linnea Snyderman 11:55

my absolute favorite place to shoot is the snow days in Mexico. And I've had the opportunity to, to, to shoot there a few times. And so if for the listeners that don't know what a snow day is, it's an underground natural pool of water. You could have it's sometimes you have a cave overhead. Sometimes it's an open pit of water, but it's all natural. It can be salt, freshwater or brackish. I love shooting those because I mean, it is a little bit on the cold side. But it's worth it, you have this beautiful natural rock behind you. And each synote is so unique and different. And you'll have little fish in there turtles swimming around with you. And it's a really controlled environment and like the ocean. So that leads me into the next part, I don't especially love to shoot in the ocean, I mean, you'll get some really beautiful images, but it's a lot harder, it's it takes a lot more effort. First of all, to get down in the saltwater to hold, you know, to be able to submerge and think saltwater makes you very buoyant. So that adds another layer, then you have the crashing waves at the surface and you're trying to get calm before you go down. So you don't have the ledge of a pool or the edge of the lake to hold on to there's nothing to hold on to unless you have a buoy. But even then, it's just it's a lot more effort. You have the the waves crashing around, you have to look out for coral. So I love shooting in a more controlled atmosphere like it's an outdoor swimming pool. But yeah, chlorine as a whole. You know, chlorine versus salt is a whole nother topic as well.

Nick VinZant 13:33

Yeah. What do you do if you're shooting in a place that like, it's not like you can just go sit in the chair, right? Like you're waiting, like, what do you do? What do you do just treading water out there waiting for the next.

Linnea Snyderman 13:45

So it's already so exhausting. Being an underwater model, you know, the shoot is a lot more tiring than if I'm shooting on land. But as soon as you take away the edge or something to hold on to that solid, it's it's it takes it astronomically higher in terms of discomfort, you don't have time to catch your breath. You don't have time to relax your body. And the whole thing with freediving or underwater modeling is it's a very zen feeling when you're under the water, you should be calm. You should be in control. And it's hard to do that when you're gasping for air and you can't catch your breath. So, yeah.

Nick VinZant 14:24

So what do you do they have to have like a buoy out there. Wow,

Linnea Snyderman 14:27

you'd have to have a buoy. And even with a buoy. I mean, unless it's a really like solid bigger buoy. I don't know. It's still hard to fully feel calm before you submerge.

Nick VinZant 14:39

Yeah, that would be the thing to me, right? It's like one it seems like a thing. It's like alright, well you just go underwater and you take the picture but then when you really get into it like oh, this is a lot more complicated than I thought that it was going to be. Yeah. How far down do you usually have to shoot like, are you just a little bit below the water? Are you like way down there?

Linnea Snyderman 15:00

Yeah, totally depends on what the photographer wants or the body of water that I'm in. I'm primarily shooting swimming pools, which ideally are seven to nine feet. And so sometimes I'll be shooting at the surface, sometimes I'll be shooting at the bottom, so anywhere between the surface and nine feet down in the ocean, or a lake or a river, sometimes it can get deeper. And so I have, so I have a very good singing capability, which is great. But sometimes I'll just let out all my air and I'll start sinking. And I won't even realize that I'm going like 1015 20 feet down, and I'm posing. And if you're in a body of water, you can't necessarily feel that you're sinking. And you look up and you realize, oh, my gosh, I'm way down, and then I haven't been clearing my ears. So that's another thing you have to think about is if you're getting, you know, too deep, you really have to be clearing your ears every few feet as you go down. And if you don't realize you're singing, you're not clearing your ears. And then you can get a lot of issues with the IRS, which is not fun, a lot of sinus stuff going on.

Nick VinZant 16:15

Have you ever been in like a dangerous situation where you feel like oh, crap,

Linnea Snyderman 16:20

I haven't. I feel like I've been in control of of most of the shoots I've done. The, the worst thing I've done is, is yeah, just sinking too deep and not realizing it. And then my ears start hurting and you come to the surface. And you really have to reset before you go down again, because you can really, really mess up your ears if you're not careful.

Nick VinZant 16:44

How do you keep like, how do you keep the clothes organized.

Linnea Snyderman 16:49

It is an art form to keep the clothes organized. Honestly, sometimes I'm wearing nothing at all. Sometimes I'm wearing a leotard. And sometimes I'm wearing these like beautiful long dresses that can really get tangled. So actually, I had a shoot on Tuesday, and the photographer had created this beautiful skirt that had a million little strips down to the bottom. And they all start to tingle and they start to tangle around your legs. And at some point, you can't kick anymore, and you have to just use your arms. So that's a moment where you have to really be fully aware of what you're doing and make sure you have enough time to get to the surface. I also did this amazing shoot, it was an ocean conservation shoot a few years ago, and we built a fence with a bunch of plastic on it. And we basically put it on the surface of the water. So my job was to swim underneath and pretend like I'm trapped under this fence. And of course, if you don't give yourself enough time, or you get snagged on the fence, you know it's it can become potentially hazardous. So you have to give yourself time if you feel like you're running out of air. Just go to the surface, there's no one that's counting your breath hold or saying you didn't hold your breath long enough. You really have to be safe and make sure you have time to get to the surface.

Nick VinZant 18:09

So if you're shooting in a pool, like it's just like a public pool, like I'm imagining, like the scene from Caddyshack, when there's this, okay, there's the underwater photographers, and then there's like kids dunk in each other in the background.

Linnea Snyderman 18:20

So ideally, not a public pool. Usually it's someone's home, someone that just has a pool in their backyard. And I know there's a million pools in LA but it's still always hard to find a good pool. Something that's deep enough something that is, you know, warm enough. Not too many leaves falling into it. But yeah, public pools are my least favorite place to shoot because there's so much chlorine and your eyes just start burning pretty much instantly. Oh, yeah. That's another thing that makes underwater modeling so different from other things is there's so much ice stuff going on. When you're in the water. There's no other profession or hobby that I can really think of where your eyes need to be open underwater. I mean, if you're synchronized swimming or you're a swimmer, you have goggles on if you're a free diver, scuba diver, you goggles on. You have a mask on. So mermaid ng underwater modeling. I can't think of anything else that has your eyes open for that long and sometimes you're shooting for three, four hours underwater. So if the pH of the water is not correct, you can really do some damage to your eyes and I cannot tell you how many times I've driven home with just like these cloudy eyeballs where I can barely see anything. And I'm trying to see the the street signs and the exit. I mean, you can barely see anything it looks like if you shoot for too long in chlorine. What happens is it looks like you're in an old timey movie, you're you have this like flashback scene where everything's hazy and every light has this big ring of light around it. And so reading signs and streetlights is hard. And this is just one of the hazards. So it's always better to bring someone with you if possible and they can drive you home. Yeah. The safest way to do it.

Nick VinZant 20:12

Yeah, that seems like a bad, right? That seems like a problem for this industry. Yes.

Linnea Snyderman 20:16

Like, yeah, it is. And there are there are eyedrops, you can use that help a little bit. I know some people wear contacts in the water. And I actually I used to wear contacts before LASIK, and I did some shoots with them, and they actually didn't float away, which I was worried about. And they do protect your eye a little bit more. So if you're able to wear contacts, there's also these gel drops, I think a lot of mermaids use, it only helps so much.

Nick VinZant 20:45

Yeah, after a certain amount of time, it's not the right leg, there's nothing you can really do about that. Who is the greatest underwear or underwear underwear. Who is the greatest underwater model of all time, and if it's you say it's you.

Linnea Snyderman 21:01

Um, well, the best in the first is Hannah mermaid. She is also local to Los Angeles. And I've shot with her once. But she you know, she built this industry. And I give her a lot of credit to that. In terms of underwater model there, there's a handful of us out there, there's not too many, I'm pretty much in contact or have worked with all of the underwater models that are really doing it out there. I like I said before, I consider myself to just be lucky enough to have found what I love so much and something that I just am naturally good at. So I think I'm one of the best. And I hear that from almost every photographer that I work with. There's a huge difference between someone who's never shot underwater. And someone who has a lot of experience. There's just it's just massive, the comfort when I'm when I find my neutral buoyancy, and I'm able to just move slowly and in control in the water. That's That's rare. And to enter just have that moment of peace when you're not thinking about a million things. That's that's what takes it to the more professional level.

Nick VinZant 22:17

That's right. Well, you just mentioned that right? Like because I'm thinking like, okay, natural buoyancy, right. But then I just basically realized that wave, I'm kind of flailing around once I go on water, right, like, Oh, I gotta stay afloat here.

Linnea Snyderman 22:29

Yeah, if you're new, if you're newer to it, you're moving fast, you're moving really sharp, you're just trying to stay down and you're just trying to get your hair out of your face. But with a lot of, you know, time and practice, you're able to just be fully in control of your entire body. So, as a professional dancer, when I'm on stage, doing my ballet thing, I'm aware of my facial expression, I'm aware of where my eyes are looking, I'm aware of my body and space, I'm aware of exactly what my feet are doing the dancers around me, and that has been instrumental in this field, because when I'm underwater, I know what my dress is doing, all I need to do is just throw it to the side and feel that fabric move outward, kind of like a jellyfish. And with my hair, I know if I just put my head back a little bit, the hair will kind of get out of my face and do a nice flowy thing. And of course, the toes are always pointed. So there's just, you know, that moment of Zen where it just all comes naturally and you don't have to think about it so much.

Nick VinZant 23:33

Yeah, like do you have to have certain proportions right? Yes to be like, is there a certain height or weight or whatever proportion wise that like oh, that's that's a good underwater model. Like this isn't going to be

Linnea Snyderman 23:48

a good this is such a great question. There is absolutely no body type that is better or worse for underwater modeling. Anybody can be an underwater model. I was once told that I was too short to work with a specific photographer. Because I'm five, six and in the water I look about 595 10 And she said I was too short. And in the water everything elongate so I would say there's no requirement or size shape or anything anyone can be an underwater model. If you're doing like fashion photography, you know you're showing off the clothing and so you know there's obviously a beauty standard for that but anyone can do it. There's no that's the beauty of it. It's not high, it's not it's not print ad fashion modeling. This is beautiful, artistic, and unique.

Nick VinZant 24:45

It is cool to see it right like there is something about it. What do you think that that something is?

Linnea Snyderman 24:53

I think it's the weightlessness I think you're having the what makes underwater modeling different than on land. She thing is this weightlessness. So, when you're in the water, you try not to make a whole lot of bubbles, or you do. So sometimes the viewer can't even tell that you're in the water. But then you have this flowing fabric, you have this flowing hair that you just don't get on land. And it's like you're in outer space. You're just floating around in there.

Nick VinZant 25:21

Okay, do you see your Instagram? Yes, I do. Okay, so tell me about this one.

Linnea Snyderman 25:26

Yeah, this was a commercial I did last year with Brett Stanley. And it was for an underwater pool cleaner. And almost everything you see in this image was submerged underwater, which is the coolest part. I think the only things that were photoshopped were the books floating and maybe the pile of books as well. But I was holding a book, I was sitting on a chaise lounge, and I you know, all of that was there. So the set designers got really creative, and how to sync all of that.

Nick VinZant 25:57

How did you do that? Like, how do you keep that position underwater,

Linnea Snyderman 26:02

I let all of my air out completely all of my air. So I sink right down to the bottom, I'm not floating around. And we had the pose, they told me exactly what they wanted. Once they saw it. They told me they want the hair flowing on the left, they want the hand holding the glasses on the right, they want the hand holding the book. So once I knew exactly what they wanted, I was able to recreate it over and over until they got the perfect image, do you just

Nick VinZant 26:27

have to do that enough times like it doesn't seem like something the water is really going to cooperate, right kind of like, all the water never

Linnea Snyderman 26:35

does what you want it to do. Absolutely. So that's why you have to do a few takes to get get it all in place. Also, you know, pull the dress down, make sure it's not coming up. So you kind of take about 1015 seconds once you get to the bottom to kind of settle, feel comfortable, get the dress in place, get the book in place, swoop the hair to the side, grab the sunglasses. So yeah, it's a process.

Nick VinZant 26:59

Do you know like how many takes or however you want to phrase it before you got this because if you said 1000 To me, I wouldn't be surprised to be like,

Linnea Snyderman 27:09

No, probably 10 times submerging to get this particular shot, you know, before this image was captured, you know, we tried other poses, and, you know, you try different things. And once they see what they want, they get really specific. And I love that I love when a photographer is specific, because I can actually give them exactly what they want. If they tell me where they want the hands, the feet, the dress, I can do all of that. And that's again, my training and in ballet, being able to know exactly how to work the costume and work with the dancers around me and spacing. Just all comes together. This is just kind of Yeah, that was last week just messing around. And I have this GoPro and I've just been meaning to create more content. And I was just having fun with this. And most of the comments I got were like, wow, you can think so easily. You can see I'm a thinker. Yeah, you can see that

Nick VinZant 28:06

you're very fluid. Yeah, it is slow movement. That's pretty cool. Always slow.

Linnea Snyderman 28:13

That first image actually is pretty exciting.

Nick VinZant 28:17

This one. Yeah. Okay, what's what's, what's going on here? Now?

Linnea Snyderman 28:24

This was the cover of Playboy summer 2019. So I was lucky enough to get the opportunity to shoot for the cover. And that was such an amazing opportunity. That was with Ed Freeman. I've worked with him many times and he's just a wizard in the water. What he creates so that was the final image do where is that where it was cool in Los Angeles.

Nick VinZant 28:49

Oh, the thing that threw me off was like the back it almost looks like there's an iceberg behind it.

Linnea Snyderman 28:54

Yeah, so he'll sometimes shoot just underwater just the pool without us in it and get these like really beautiful patterns of light and then he'll put them into the image. And if you see the reflection on the surface, it's actually the the bunny ears

Nick VinZant 29:10

that's really cool. Right and as level wearing our legs Yeah, I am like, I'm not I'm gonna sound like I'm just staring at this right but all the right places are covered.

Linnea Snyderman 29:23

So actually, I was I had an extra job on set I was there to make sure that every we had seven people think it was seven or maybe more than that seven of us on set shooting underwater for this, this edition. And my job was to help make sure that everyone was posing in a way that was not too revealing. So I had to kind of coach you know, covering the arm over the chest or you know, use your downstage leg or the leg in front to kind of cover things and the funny thing was the woman in the middle Marissa So she is a she's worked with Playboy many times, and she's very comfortable with her body. So in almost every shot, it's just everything

Nick VinZant 30:08

wide open, wide open, right, like

Linnea Snyderman 30:11

the photographer had to kind of do some extra shading for this image.

Nick VinZant 30:17

This one, this is cool to me.

Linnea Snyderman 30:20

Oh, yeah, that's Cheryl Walsh. She's also Southern California based and her work is just absolutely phenomenal. And she keeps her pool meticulously clean. So the images always come out really crystal clear and crisp. I'm wearing a wig in this image. So she loves to work with wigs.

Nick VinZant 30:39

Yeah, how do you like to me the challenge would be the dress. Right? Yeah. So

Linnea Snyderman 30:44

actually, we had someone on the surface helping hold the edges of the dress and then let them go as I submerge to get that perfect, like, rounded upward. Because I'm holding a sword. I have to focus on hold. But yeah, so sometimes you'll have people on set helping to kind of help with the dress.

Nick VinZant 31:06

How are they were they just like holding it with their hands? Are they like using wires from up above?

Linnea Snyderman 31:11

No, just with their hands. They hold it. And as I submerge they kind of slowly let it go. And she captures the image right as I'm, I'm thinking that's cool. Love. Now, where's

Nick VinZant 31:21

this hat.

Linnea Snyderman 31:23

This is in the Florida springs shooting with Justin Lecky, and I'm with my friend Jane here. And this was a concept I had. Basically it's it's a it's an ode to Mother Nature. So I am basically Mother Nature on the top and my friend is the dying Earth, the dying aspects of our planet. So this was a very political image and environmental damage, trying to bring awareness to just the destruction where we're wreaking havoc on our planet. So this is me trying to save the planet. How far

Nick VinZant 31:59

down would you be there?

Linnea Snyderman 32:01

Um, this was pretty shallow. So maybe, maybe it's five feet deep. Okay. Really not? Yeah, so we had to be kneeling, we couldn't be vertical. Otherwise we'd be out of the water. But I just love the way you get the the trees up above. And I always love getting the opportunity to shoot in nature. It's it gives a very different look to the image than if you're just shooting in a pool. This was in the ocean. There's two of us in this image. Actually,

Nick VinZant 32:26

I had to look at it for a while. I was like, Wait, is that one person? Zoom?

Linnea Snyderman 32:30

Yeah, it reminds me of like a nautilus shell. This was created in the Bahamas with photographers, Xena Holloway. And she is, in many people's opinion, the best, the best of the best underwater. But yeah, I just absolutely love this image. You can't tell whose arms or legs or what's going on. And she might have edited out some limbs as well. But you can just see the beautiful sand on the bottom. And then she rotates the images. Well.

Nick VinZant 32:59

Yeah, I can't tell who's whose. Whose part is who's there.

Linnea Snyderman 33:03

Right. I'm actually I'm the I always thought I was the top person. I'm actually the bottom, the bottom model. And those are my arms kind of over her.

Nick VinZant 33:13

Like you took the moment you weren't even able to like which way which 1am I? Yeah, exactly. It's funny. Oh, where is that?

Linnea Snyderman 33:21

Well, this the the Playboy photographer, Ed Freeman. He's just incredible. I love working with him. This was in a pool in Los Angeles as well. And we actually put a mirror on the bottom of the pool. And so that that's what gives that reflection on the bottom instead of the surface of the water. Oh,

Nick VinZant 33:41

that makes sense. Right? I was wondering like, Okay, where did how did he do that? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how he did it.

Linnea Snyderman 33:49

Do you want a very literal concept? Or do you want something a little more, you know, abstract. And it all just depends on your communication with the photographer and what you're going for. Sometimes I come in with a concept, sometimes they come in with a concept. And sometimes we'll combine our ideas as well, there's so many more levels to it, when you see it. There's so many levels, and each photographer is so different in their approach to it. So, you know, some people will just shoot with the same one or two photographers I shoot with so many different photographers, which means I have to adapt to each of their styles. The only thing that I keep really consistent with photographers, which comes from me as I like to do three breaths with the photographer each time before I submerged. And that's that's if they're free diving with me and not on scuba. But if they're just going down with me, I like to have eye contact with them so that I know they're ready. And no one's running out of breath. We give three big breaths and they'll kind of go down a little bit before me and to get settled and then I'll I'll let out my air and go down on the next on the last breath. So that is how I like communicate with my photographer's every time but they're always asking different things with me. And that's really fun as well.

Nick VinZant 35:05

That's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything that you think that we missed or anything like that? Or how can people get a hold of you learn more about this?

Linnea Snyderman 35:14

I think we covered a lot. I mean, there's always more to delve into, to dive into, but I'm mainly on Instagram underwater Linnea and I have a Tik Tok as well, YouTube. I do a lot of content, myself, I love to create music videos, and commercials and things like that on my own. Because sometimes if the work isn't coming to you, you have to create it on your own. And that's the world we live in this day and age.

Nick VinZant 35:43

I want to thank Linnea so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information. In the episode description. If you want to see some of the things that we talked about the images and the videos, there really is something special about them. The YouTube version of this episode will be live on August 17, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, I want to take a second and thank one of the sponsors of our show. HelloFresh HelloFresh is farm fresh food pre portioned ingredients that can be delivered right to your door. And we all know that fall is right around the corner. And the summer slowdown is coming to an end and it's gonna get really busy. And I can speak from experience just having something there like HelloFresh, where you can just, it's premade it's good, you don't have to think about it, you can prepare some of these recipes in 15 minutes or less. And you get this amazing variety, where not only can you just put something together really quickly, but it's gonna taste really good. It's pretty cost effective, honestly, 25% cheaper than takeout. So I I've used it before, I thought it was fantastic. And right now, they are offering a special discount to our less our listeners, all you have to do is go to hellofresh.com/fifty pointless and use code 50 pointless for 50% off. plus free shipping. That's HelloFresh America's number one meal kit hellofresh.com/fifty pointless and use code 50 pointless for 50% off, we'll put a link and the code in the description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. I have to say though, we had some massive technical difficulties. So the only thing that we were able to get is the top five. But I think it's one of our better top five. I think there's going to be a lot of strong opinions about if these are really the top five. All right, so our number for our top five is top five TV show theme songs. What's your number five?

John Shull 38:25

Yeah, so it was a lot of there's a lot on my list. It's hard to narrow down just to five but we'll start number five off at a friend's

Nick VinZant 38:32

I think friends is overrated. I think friends is one that a lot of people would go to, but ultimately, I think the song is good, but it doesn't really set me up for the actual show. As much as some other ones that I personally would put on my list. My number five is the Addams Family. Good. Turn, turn, turn, turn, turn,

John Shull 38:55

and definitely a good one. So my honorable mention though.

Nick VinZant 39:02

Okay, okay, so number four.

John Shull 39:04

My number for the Brady Bunch theme.

Nick VinZant 39:07

Y'all come on. Are you going old school all the time? Brady budge.

John Shull 39:11

I mean, but they've transcended generations.

Nick VinZant 39:17

I don't actually know it. Can you do this? The song?

John Shull 39:20

The Brady Bunch. Everybody's favorite family? No, I don't know. I just I know that it's a jingle that I can't think of at the moment.

Nick VinZant 39:32

So how are you going to put it on your list then if you can't even do what it is

John Shull 39:35

because I'm a fraud.

Nick VinZant 39:38

Okay, okay, well, that's completely fine. My number four is the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

John Shull 39:45

Okay, I definitely have that one up on the list.

Nick VinZant 39:48

Okay, you have it a little bit higher to Yes. That's the only one that I would say and I'm not knocking the TV show but that's the only one that I would say that's held back by the show itself. That theme song for that is better than the show Out.

John Shull 40:01

Oof, man, I wouldn't say that for any theme song. But yeah, that I don't agree with that at all.

Nick VinZant 40:09

What's your but the line that jumps out to me is you move with my hand on the bell there. That's the one that I immediately remember.

John Shull 40:15

Yeah, I mean, moving with my uncle Bellaire went to the house to give them knuckleheads out there co shooting. Oh, wait, that's not

Nick VinZant 40:26

Oh my god. That's you just mix that up. And like, with Eazy E, that's Eazy E. I don't know if I should be impressed or disappointed because you got those two together, which is kind of like,

John Shull 40:40

Yeah, let's just say that if this if this episode makes it out on Wednesday, it's a fucking miracle.

Nick VinZant 40:46

It is a miracle. We honestly like you did a fantastic job of struggling through life. And that's what it is. That is the ultimate lesson that I would like to teach my children and if I could ever impart some wisdom, like you don't always have to be moving forward by leaps and bounds. Sometimes you just got to move forward by a millimeter. All you got to do is move forward. And even though we had all these struggles, like you persevered, you didn't give up and that's winning the battle no matter what the outcome is. You won the personal battle John, congratulations, man. I think I'm pretty proud of you actually. Right now.

John Shull 41:16

I actually have not I wanted I want a full 45 minute record session instead of the last hour and a half getting 10 Second blurbs here. Anyways, my number three and I give the guy a lot of shit, but I feel like it has to be on here is Mr. Rogers Neighborhood?

Nick VinZant 41:34

Oh, yeah. I can't I mean, I remember that a little bit. That's to me the Sesame Street song is a little bit better than Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

John Shull 41:45

Yeah, I mean, you're you're I mean, you're not wrong. Listen, I once again, screw Mr. Rogers. He has some skeletons in his closet, I'm sure. But

Nick VinZant 41:53

not to Sesame Street is a good song. I would put the theme song from bluey up there as well. That's going to be a legendary theme song

John Shull 42:01

dad doo doo doo doo mom. Yeah, yeah, that one's been

Nick VinZant 42:05

go. There really isn't. Oh, man. That's a whole discussion though. Is there a good TV show with a bad theme song or entrance? Like ah, this is awful.

John Shull 42:17

Yeah, remember? Well, Oh, you mean a bad themes song for a good TV show?

Nick VinZant 42:22

Yeah, theme song Intro Music whatever we like, oh, that's awful. But the show is great. No,

John Shull 42:29

they usually go hand in hand right if the show is good as a good theme song.

Nick VinZant 42:33

That is true. I can't really think of any good shows with bad theme songs or intros. My number three is the Simpsons.

John Shull 42:40

They're all my honorable mention. Yeah, I mean, I don't actually really remember it except for the end with you know, The Simpsons.

Nick VinZant 42:53

I remember the beginning in the end. It's a hard theme song to just did to distance from the visuals. That would be the only thing.

John Shull 43:01

Okay, what what do you mean distance from the visuals? What does that mean?

Nick VinZant 43:06

I think of when I'm, like I picture what's happening in the intro more than I think of the song. Okay, like my number one, like you could do the song by itself. But if the Simpsons like, I got to kind of see it to go along with it. What's your number? What's your number two?

John Shull 43:26

Southpark

Nick VinZant 43:29

Oh, that is a good one. But

John Shull 43:35

you never knew what he was saying. Right? I mean, you still don't know.

Nick VinZant 43:39

That might be the best theme song where you don't actually know any of the words.

John Shull 43:45

Yeah, you're probably right on that one.

Nick VinZant 43:48

Right. Yeah, I can. People setting something how do you neighbor,

John Shull 43:53

people shouting hurry, neighbor.

Nick VinZant 43:57

Ample parking. I remember that. And I didn't understand. I didn't understand that at the time. Like, oh, what? Who cares about ample parking, and then you become an adult and you're like, oh, good parking is is pretty essential geniuses, those two geniuses. My number two is the Soprano's.

John Shull 44:15

So I've never seen the sopranos I looked at a couple of lists, and it was high on the list. So I'll say sure, but I've never actually seen an episode of The Sopranos.

Nick VinZant 44:24

It's very good theme song. It's an iconic theme song. I think it's probably I would make a strong argument that HBO, HBO as a company or whatever you want to call it has by far the best intros. A you see an HBO intro you're like, Whoa, and then you see any other kind of thing and you're like, I just don't understand why people don't hire the HBO people like they're clearly the best at making any kind of intros

John Shull 44:49

because the HBO people are making plenty enough money where they are they do not need to go anywhere else.

Nick VinZant 44:55

Well, yeah, that's probably true. But it is amazing. It's like how come you guys get this right every sing Little time and nobody else ever gets it right

John Shull 45:03

you know and save other shows don't get it right but whatever. My number one raw

Nick VinZant 45:10

oh god why

John Shull 45:14

I'm kidding it's a that actually was on my honorable mention Rawhide but no Fresh Prince of Bel Air is my number one it's just too catchy. Yes. Yeah, it's too. I mean show came out what late 80s, early 90s mid 90s I mean, it's look what it spawned. Look people you know, it's easily I would say it's a second most recognizable theme song on my list outside of the friend song.

Nick VinZant 45:41

My number one is the Game of Thrones song. I think that that is the best intro song because it sets the stage for the whole episode. As soon as you heard that music, you're like, oh, yeah, it's Game of Thrones time. The you don't feel that way about any about friends about Fresh Prince of Bel Air. That theme song made that show and event.

John Shull 46:02

I mean, you were definitely jacked up and tuned in for it. Like as soon as that hit at eight o'clock. You knew you were in for a Game of Thrones episode. And you were there. That's that's not a bad choice. I don't know if it's I don't think it's number one. Plus is not really. I mean, it is a theme. But I don't know. Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. It's the shouldn't be number one, but it's fine to be on the list.

Nick VinZant 46:26

I think it should be number one. I think it should be number one. I don't really that that to me. It's like, Dun dun dun dun dun dun. I like all right, it sets you up. And not only did it set you up like it got you excited about the show. That music mimicked kind of what was going on in the show like intrigue. Suspense sets. Yeah, they got rid of that. Lots of did you have that big? I don't remember seeing a lot of dicks. Honestly, in Game of Thrones. I don't remember seeing just straight Dick shots.

John Shull 47:01

Or you fro threat suit as I said diksa that I came back. And all I heard was you say dick shots. So I'm gonna say yeah,

Nick VinZant 47:07

yes. If there's if if you see a dick shot now John and I are both straight married men. No, no. Judgment or anything. If that's not your thing? What if there's a dick shot on TV? Are you going to keep watching it? Or do you kind of turn away?

John Shull 47:24

That's uh, I mean, I won't turn away. I'm not gonna pause it. But you know, I'll, it's there. I'm not gonna go I'm not gonna go one way or the other.

Nick VinZant 47:35

I'll put my hand up be like, All right. I don't need to see that. diksha unless it's like a funny Dick shot but otherwise I'll he'll be like, Okay, I can skip that part.

John Shull 47:43

I'm not gonna lie to you. Most of the dick shots that happen I don't realize are coming. And then that's there. And I'm like, Oh, that's a that's a dick on the TV.

Nick VinZant 47:52

It is very surprising that you can generally see female nudity coming but male nudity in a show is always a surprise.

John Shull 48:01

Also, we sound pretty much chauvinistic right now or whatever, because we're talking about dicks and that's going ooh, do you think women do that? When a boob shots on the TV? Probably not.

Nick VinZant 48:12

No, but a woman's body objectively whatever your sexual interest in a woman's body is a better looking thing than a man's body. Oh, yeah. Like a man's like use like a wiener just looking. We're like, it's just like this thing. That's It's like somebody took an elephant's trunk and just shrunk it way down and then stuck it halfway through, way down. It's way down. Right? I'm thoroughly convinced that I don't know if there is a God or not. That's my personal belief system. But I've thoroughly convinced the Dix were a complete joke to him, or her or whatever God is, it would be less like, Hey, watch, watch this. I'm gonna put that right there.

John Shull 48:55

There was definitely way cooler things you could have given the male species to have sex with than that, but it's fine. It's practical. It works most times.

Nick VinZant 49:05

I do find it hilarious that despite all of our sophistication, we're just like, bumping around like that. Like that's so stupid. Really? Like how could you ever How could any person ever think that they're like cool or hot shit? When you like do that? Just

John Shull 49:28

like we're not cool. No. I will argue to this day that there is not one person on the face of this earth. That looks cool having sex? No, you can't

Nick VinZant 49:37

I don't think there's a single person can but anyway, would you agree with my premise that you see female nudity? Common you're like, Oh, God, it's common. But male nudity is always kind of a surprise. Like, bam, there it is.

John Shull 49:50

Yeah, by far yeah. It's a lot of times I just bring out the dick you don't even know and you're like, oh shit, and there's dicks.

Nick VinZant 49:58

There it is. Right? It's always this prize, which is fine once again,

John Shull 50:02

I don't you know, it doesn't matter your sexual orientation or what you're into. If a dick pops up on the screen, you're gonna be surprised one way or the other.

Nick VinZant 50:09

Yeah, it's more surprising. There's a level of surprise. It's not just like boom titties. No, but it is like, boom wiener?

John Shull 50:16

Yeah, we enter.

Nick VinZant 50:18

Okay. What's your honorable mention?

John Shull 50:22

This these have Scooby Doo. Cheers, which I only put cheers on because everyone knows your name. SpongeBob you know, just because once again, I think SpongeBob is Oh, that's a good one up to a bluey. To me, Simpsons. I also have the Flintstones but you know, couple old school pics there at the end.

Nick VinZant 50:46

I have some in there that are on my honorable mention. I have cheers as well. I have X Files. That's it sets up the show. That's how I went with it. Maybe it's not musically, but it sets up the show you like to what hasn't gotten me? I don't know how to go.

John Shull 51:06

Yeah, I went way too high. But yeah, I

Nick VinZant 51:07

think that's how it goes either. So

John Shull 51:09

I think you're

Nick VinZant 51:10

absolutely. How does it like you can picture it. It's like as soon as you you can picture it. But as soon as you try to grab it, it slips away from you.

John Shull 51:18

Well, like most things. I don't know. I feel like let me see if we can get it hold on

Nick VinZant 51:31

that's how it goes. That's a good theme song man that sets you up for the episode, you would listen to it. Whereas I think that a lot of the ones that you put on there, you would skip right over it. You wouldn't do that with Game of Thrones. You would watch it.

John Shull 51:45

Well. I don't I didn't have a lot of dramas on my I don't think I had one drama on my list. You know, most of mine were like, shows where you the theme came on? You're like awesome, like fantastic. Here we go. Like it's gonna be a fun time. You have on all these shows with Dixon them?

Nick VinZant 52:04

Well, yeah, dude, Game of Thrones. Maybe. So I watched it. I have Jeopardy in there.

John Shull 52:10

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Boring. But

Nick VinZant 52:13

I think that there's a Jeopardy is a pretty good it's iconic, though. Like, oh, yeah, that's easily you have to agree. That's easily the best game show theme song.

John Shull 52:24

Yes, by far, I don't even know if I can name you other ones.

Nick VinZant 52:28

I don't know what any maybe. I don't know what any of the other ones even sound like?

John Shull 52:34

I one that I left off that I just thought of I don't know if I would have put it on my list other than my honorable mentioned. But Do do do. Do you have the guts?

Nick VinZant 52:44

Oh, I don't remember that one. I think that there's a lot that are like supposedly really good that are before our time, like all in the family. The Jeffersons? Yeah, those are before our time.

John Shull 52:56

You know, we only include things from our time. Most times No,

Nick VinZant 53:00

no. To do to the dealerships or partners in the sky. Anyway, well, actually, I think this actually worked. I think we actually got through this. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. And let us know what you think are some of the best TV show themes. I know the Game of Thrones, like maybe that song isn't as good, but I think it's set the mood for the show. Better than any other theme song. Maybe Fresh Prince is pretty far up there too, in terms of that. And I gotta give John credit. We had real big technical difficulties and he fought through it. Normally he's a guy who gives up pretty easily but not anymore. So brand new John, proud of him.

Height Researcher Dr. Louise Barrett

Does size really matter? Height Researcher Dr. Louise Barrett studies how your height can impact everything from your career and health, to your romantic success and self-confidence. We talk the perfect height for women, why men obsess over height and why we used to be taller. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Best School Supplies.

Dr. Louise Barrett: 01:25

Pointless: 27:30

Top 5 School Supplies: 46:44

Contact the Show

Dr. Louise Barrett

Interview with Height Researcher Dr. Louise Barrett

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode height, and school supplies.

Dr. Louise Barrett 0:20

So there are all different ways in which height can have this, this massive impact in our lives. So it affects this sort of It's a biological phenomena, but it also affects us psychologically. And socially and culturally, very early human fossils show much more robust and taller males than you see today. What these environmental effects on height do, they change the length of your legs. So you when you get when, when populations get taller is because their legs are getting longer.

Nick VinZant 0:52

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is an expert in something that affects nearly everything around you. Your career, your romantic prospects, even your health. This is height researcher, Dr. Luis Barrett, is height important to us if it is why is height so important to us?

Dr. Louise Barrett 1:29

Well, I think I think it is important because we are upright, two legged mammals and height is one of the first things you notice about someone, you can't help it. And it affects how we treat other people. So there are sort of meat based preferences people like to the men, like women to be shorter than than they are women like men to be taller than they are. There are differences in how much you get paid. Often there's a sort of height to premium, there's a halo effect around height, taller people are more likely to be paid more taller men are more likely to be voted president. So there are all different ways in which height can have this, this massive impact in our lives. It affects this sort of It's a biological phenomena, but it also affects us psychologically, and socially. And culturally.

Nick VinZant 2:21

Is it hardwired into us like those reasons about being like, Okay, this is good nutrition, and this is good stock. So, right, right. Like, that makes sense to me, if we're going back 500 years, 1000 years, whatever, why is it still important to us? Now?

Dr. Louise Barrett 2:36

That's a very, that's a very good question. Okay. So the, I mean, I don't like that word. I don't like the term hardwired because I don't think anything is really hardwired in that way. There's always some flexibility, even when even with a tray that's like height, which does have a big genetic component. There's always environmental factors that matter. But, you know, in terms of something that we can't seem to get rid of, I think you're right, because the argument in other species is oh, well, larger males are more competitive against other males. So they can, they are going to win more fights, and they are going to be better quality, and females will prefer them for that reason, they're bigger and stronger. They can defend against predators more effectively, all those kinds of things that is not happening in your modern day office, or if it is, I have never been into those offices. I don't know where that might happen. But it's not happening on that sense. But clearly, there's something there that we are still in tapping into where we are, we are continuing to attribute those kinds of traits, and see taller men as more powerful in some way. Now, it might not be in terms of the fact that you might have a fight with them. But clearly, those kinds of we are sensitive to height, and we see taller heights as more powerful. And we record more respect to people who are tall that

Nick VinZant 4:00

I know this might be really kind of hard to answer, but I'm a numbers person, right? So if we put things on a scale of one to 10, one being the lowest 10 being the most important, like where is height on that scale, when we're choosing people to follow or choosing a mate? Like, where would you say it ranks in terms of importance?

Dr. Louise Barrett 4:21

It's probably it's probably about a four to five it's not it's it's it has some importance, but the reason why I'm kind of hedging there is if you ask people for their preferences, people, you know, people specify height people choose on the basis of height, they expressed strong preferences for particular heights. But if you look at actual partnerships, that those those preferences don't pan out in that way, you do not find such hard, you know, hard line preferences in actual couples, there is some associated meeting so the sorts of meetings when you If you pair up with someone who's very similar to you in various ways, all your preferences align. So you can, if you look at people's expressed preferences, there'll be a big difference in like, you know, the, the, the man will want to short a woman and the woman who wants to tall a man. But when you look at people who have paired up and you'd look at real life couples, those differences are much, much smaller. When we

Nick VinZant 5:22

kind of breaking down some of the aspects like that we've talked about when we look at careers, how does height affect somebody's career,

Dr. Louise Barrett 5:30

there is an effect, I wouldn't say it's like make or break. But certainly people who are taller people who were men, particularly who were taller, will tend to have hold higher positions in a organization and they will tend to be paid more, in the same way that good looking the same as like life is just not fair. So good looking people are also more like, like we should be paid be paid more, there's a there's an there's a premium on attractiveness, and there's a premium on height. And somehow we're thinking those people are, we are attributing the fact that they are tall, with some element of their competence somehow that might and that may not actually be true. There may be no link between those but somehow that's that, that perception is what influences how people are cheating in society.

Nick VinZant 6:21

Now, when we talk about like the differences in salary or differences in promotion, are we talking about little things like okay, if you're five, nine, you get paid this much. If you're 511, you get paid $50,000 more? Are we talking like big differences are kind of little differences. At the

Dr. Louise Barrett 6:36

end of the day, they probably work out to be quite small effects, which is I mean, you can you can there will be a difference you can detect it, he may well over the long term make a difference? And you may, you might, you know, you might speed up your promotion, but I don't think you could say there's a $50,000 difference between being, you know, two inches taller. But definitely, I think if you're, I think often what comes out as as well, in a lot of these things, when you look at them, it's actually kind of a prejudice against short people, shorter men particularly. So being it's not so much being very tall, that that matters, it's not being very short,

Nick VinZant 7:16

what would you say is the cut off? where somebody's like, Okay, if you're this size or smaller, you're going to start feeling the effects of this

Dr. Louise Barrett 7:24

at five foot four from

Nick VinZant 7:27

is it does it apply for a woman at all?

Dr. Louise Barrett 7:30

It's less, there's less variation in female height in many ways, right? So women are not necessarily you know, you don't get that sort of the same degree of difference between female height and male height. And you also have these things where women tend to be played less anyway, you know, there's there is, and that's a big, we won't want to go down that road, right. But there is this big argument about a gender gap in pay and that kind of thing. So it makes it harder to tease out these things. For women, but there's the the effects, and I think most people have studied these things in in men, because perceived that these perceptions of height seem to matter more to men than to

Nick VinZant 8:11

women. Why is there less height variation in women than men,

Dr. Louise Barrett 8:15

without going too much into the weeds, it's also true if you look at other primates as well, that there's more often more variation in males body size than than female. And it's because for females, mammals, putting energy into reproduction, right, if you are, you have to grow a whole baby in your body. And that, and the capacity to do that is to is related to your body size, and how tall you are and how wide your pelvis is, but but the benefits of getting much bigger, or much less, because that means you're putting effort into growth that you could put into production. So you, you trade off those two things, so you're more likely to begin reach sexual maturity and be ready to reproduce at a smaller size. And whereas for men, because there's this argument that what increases made success for male mammals and you know, you know, early humans, the, it's about being a bigger male, you're either more competitive against other males, you can find them more effectively or females are more likely to choose you. So then there's there's greater benefit for for males is putting more effort into growth.

Nick VinZant 9:34

No, I mean, we've kind of talked about stuff that seems to be like perceived, but is there any indication that like, no, actually tall people are tall people are better?

Dr. Louise Barrett 9:43

There's no There's I don't think psychologically, there's there's much evidence for that, but not you know, that I've come across, but there are there are health differences. So there are shorter people are often more likely to experience higher levels of like what they call all cause mortality. So your risk is higher, and taller people are more likely to you know, they are often have better health. But again, it's always like these things are always very complicated because there are you have lower risks of certain conditions. But if you're particularly tall, you might be there's some hint that you might be more at risk from certain kinds of cancers. And that argument there is just if you have a bigger body, you have more cells in your body, and there are just more cells that can kind of go, you know, go haywire. And that's what, which is what cancer is, it's like cell growth getting out of control. So if you're taller, you might have you might have just a greater chance of certain cancers. But otherwise, health wise, being taller is is associated with high levels of health. But I don't know of anything that about cognitive abilities. In that same way, so I think a lot of it is just perception.

Nick VinZant 11:05

I know we kind of hit on this a little bit, but I'll ask this slightly differently. Have we always been like this? Or did we kind of like, oh, we really started to ramp this up at a certain point, or it's like, yeah, we've pretty much always been like this, when we

Dr. Louise Barrett 11:19

were when you know, early, very early human fossils show much more robust and taller males than you see today. And that was associated with, you know, in order to hunt, large game, you need to be quite large and powerful. And then you see a decline in that as you move towards agriculture, and men and women become more similar in size, because now you're like, agriculture doesn't require as much upper body strength, you're like, if you're not having to throw a spear, and beat something to death. You don't need as much height and upper body strength as you do to like grow food. So I'm sure that there have been these these differences through time that there have been preferences for, for taller men, but they may have had more to do with physical capacity that might have been more important. I think today, you still see the preferences for height, but I don't think they tie into actual differences in capacity and behavior in the same way that they used to do. I think it like he was saying earlier, I think it's deception,

Nick VinZant 12:24

just to kind of clarify something. In the past, we used to be like men used to be bigger overall, or they just used to be bigger compared to women.

Dr. Louise Barrett 12:34

So the human the fossil record is very interesting, right. So you have Australopithecines which are from for say, like 3 million years ago, like, they were very ape like they're on the sheet. They're sort of human ancestors, human cousins. And then when you get to the to humans, as a, as a general, as a joke, as a genus as the, you know, Hamo, which is our species who belong to when you look at the evolution of species, Homo erectus, they're much much taller than the astropay the seeds, right? So you see, they become people, we become fully bipedal, ie two legged and walk around on two legs. We are completely adapted to life on the ground and not life in the trees anymore. And we're big, and both men Yeah, and and so if you look in the fossil record, you see large, robust males. And often, heights are predicted that could be even taller than you see today. In certain populations, then what happens is, we invent agriculture. And there's this in, there's this big decline in height, because agriculture doesn't lend itself to promoting growth. And early agriculture doesn't lend itself to promoting growth in children as effectively. So you are more likely to have a hungry season because crops can fail. It's also the time it takes for crops to grow. So you have less food, your nutrition is poorer. And if you live your agricultural society, you live a higher density, so you're more likely to gain infections and diseases. So all of those things together mean that we you have this, you know, when you've got human evolution here, so we were quite tall when we're hunter gatherers, and then the human population drops in height because of moving towards becoming more agricultural. And then now you see what you're on what we're on now as I can a trajectory moving towards larger heights again, as we've got better nutrition, public health, you know, better medicine and we understand germs. So now we're doing we've been increasing in size. So we used to be bigger then we got smaller now again, bigger again.

Nick VinZant 14:53

How did you kind of how did you get into this? What drew you into this?

Dr. Louise Barrett 14:57

Well, I study non human part I made mostly baboons and vervet monkeys. And like I say, baboons show massive, dynamite dimorphism, between the sexes. So males are twice the size of females. And so I'm very interested in primate behavior. And then I was like, this is kind of an accident, I was at a conference and I met, a researcher could hurt, stop, who's Dutch, and he worked on height. And we just got very interested in looking at human height, from an evolutionary perspective in all its dimensions, because he was he was interested in it, because he's interested in human behavior, generally. And then I was interested in the contrasts between non human primates and humans. And also, I think, when you apply evolutionary theory to people, you can make these very sweeping statements about what's evolved in people and how psychological things have evolved in people. And height to me is a good counter example to that, because although it's something we can measure very easily, and we know that it's important, and we know understand what promotes height and what makes you increases your height, or makes you stunted these kinds of things. We still don't, this is still like large gaps in our knowledge. And we have to be very careful about how we interpret them. So it's a good case study in Beyonce, like, even though we know all this stuff about high, we still have to be very, very careful. And this is one of the best known human traits that we have. So when you're talking about other things, or the kinds of things that people do, it shows you the winner to be quite cautious about how we decide what humans what Hume what's natural for humans or human nature is. Because even when it's something obviously height, where there are still big gaps in our knowledge and things that we don't know. And so we need to you can use it to illustrate the benefits of an evolutionary approach to understanding humans, but also why we need to be cautious and not go too mad with our interpretations.

Nick VinZant 17:07

Start not really what we do. That's not

Dr. Louise Barrett 17:11

really what we do. No, no, it's a fool's errand that I'm engaged in.

Nick VinZant 17:14

Right, like we kind of do the exact opposite. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. That would be great. Is height really that important for women or two men just think it's really important for women in like dating area,

Dr. Louise Barrett 17:33

the thing about in the in a sort of dating arena is men want women who are shorter than them, but they don't really care that much, right? There is not it's not so strong. And women want men who are taller than them. But they don't necessarily want them too tall. So there's, they're so often you get

Nick VinZant 17:57

married, man, I'm used to this conundrum. So you want this thing, but not too much.

Dr. Louise Barrett 18:02

So part of the reason why it doesn't seem like it may be so important for women is it's just much easier for women to find a mate that they prefer in this domain, because most men are taller than most women. So it's only at the extremes. So if you're a very shorthand or a very tall woman, then your height preferences can be a bit of a problem, because you your your dating pool is just that much smaller. But I think once people actually get to know each other, those these things don't necessarily don't necessarily feature that strongly.

Nick VinZant 18:36

Right. But does it rule people out? Like in terms of like the dating apps? Does it automatically seem to be Is it strong enough of a drive that automatically rules somebody out like for somebody's looking for? I want this person with this, this and this, but they're not six foot? Like does it rule people out more with dating apps?

Dr. Louise Barrett 18:56

I think I think it kind of does, because it's one of the ways that people use height as a filter. So it is ruling some people out in a way that's not it may be kind of counterproductive. You know, you just have this preference you and it may well be that you're trading on these perceptions we have about tall people and tall men in particular, that you say you want someone who's six foot because you also imagine that they're going to be successful, they're going to have a good better job they're gonna do you know, all these things that you think go along with height, that may or may not be true. And so you're you are ruling some people out if you specify this and apparently that's what people do. They are particularly women. They use height as a massive filter when they're putting together profiles and choosing people on dating apps. But it seems like maybe that's a somewhat counterproductive way to go about things. Given that there's, you know, the relationships are there but They're not particularly strong.

Nick VinZant 20:02

How many people lie about their height? Is there any statistics on how many people lie about their height?

Dr. Louise Barrett 20:08

I don't know. Any of I don't know, any. I would be very interested to know that, I think because I think I, in my impression is people do lie about their height, which I find very interesting, because presumably, you're going to meet these people at some point. And then they will, like, what are you going to do stand? Stand on a box all the time? And you know, Never show your legs? I don't I? So yes, people do. Say that there. And I mean, you see it sometimes when you people will say I, you know, they will say, Well, how they are and you think you will never that tool. Like you're either completely misled about how long foot is, or, you know, you're lying here. And you imagine the rest of us can't see it. But it's a funny thing I think people do over estimate that I,

Nick VinZant 20:59

I have a theory that pretty much every guy is about an inch to two inches shorter than he actually says he is.

Dr. Louise Barrett 21:05

I think that's definitely true. So no, there are no, I have no more data on it. But my my experience in the world is that happens all the time.

Nick VinZant 21:14

Well, if everybody lies, it becomes the truth. Right? Eventually, at some point. I'm like, this was kind of funny. But Is anyone actually 511? Because no one who is 511 would actually say they're sick would actually say 511. They would be six foot?

Dr. Louise Barrett 21:31

I mean, of course, I mean, there are a lot of people who are five foot 11. Because all the blokes who are five foot nine is saying that five foot

Nick VinZant 21:38

it's the truth. That is exactly the truth, right? Like, there's not a single 511 person in any dating app, I can promise you, right? Um, oh, this one's kind of interesting to me, right? Do you think that Zoom could change all this? Because you can't really tell how tall somebody is?

Dr. Louise Barrett 21:58

No, no, not. So that's true. But there's a researcher at the University of Kent University of St. Andrews in Scotland called David parrot who's done a lot of work on facial perception in humans. And he had a student who looked at people's faces and showed this and when I can't remember if they ever kind of worked out precisely what it was about the facial configuration, but you can predict how tall someone is from some aspect of their face.

Nick VinZant 22:29

Oh, I don't feel like okay, can we just can we try this? I'm a terrible judge of height. How tall? Do you think that I

Dr. Louise Barrett 22:37

511?

Nick VinZant 22:42

I am exactly because I was measured for life insurance. Five, eight and three quarters. Does that seem about right? Like looking at?

Dr. Louise Barrett 22:51

I would say yes. I mean, obviously, I'm gonna I'm not gonna say no. Am I? Now? I'm gonna say that to myself a lot, a great judge of height? I am. I mean, I would say I would say yes. And the reason I would say that is because of your shoulders rather than your face. But the interesting thing is, there's like, when you see secular trends in height, like people get taller with each generation, and it happened after the Second World War, particularly in Japan, when they started drinking a lot of milk. And it changes the what, what these environmental effects and it was they changed the length of your legs. So you when you get when when populations get taller is because their legs are getting longer. So there's a sense in which I find it interesting as to whether you can like if or how good this effect is being able to spot people's height from something like just looking at their head and shoulders on Zoom. Because Because some people have very long torsos. And so do you know what I mean? Yeah, throws it off. So you can actually start sitting down you can be, you would look the same height. And then if you stand up, you suddenly notice a difference. So

Nick VinZant 24:01

country or area that seems to care about height, the most country that doesn't seem to care that much. Or regions of the world, like whatever you you know, however you

Dr. Louise Barrett 24:12

might see in Western Europe and America, that's where people care. Certain in certain African populations, like there's a there's a population of people, the Hadza they don't seem to care much about height, in terms of mate preferences and how they deal with people. But there is generally speaking across most societies, there is this phenomenon of like the big man, right, his you know, there, that's what he's literally called in anthropology, like, big men are seen as leaders. So in that sense, you know, in that domain, there is a lots of people across the world care about height, in terms of who do you want to be the leader of your group and who do you want to have authority But in terms of dating preferences, it's much more flexible. And you know, and it's mostly Western Europe, where people's opinion in America where people say, well, North America, where people seem to care about these things,

Nick VinZant 25:12

for somebody that maybe is self conscious about it, like, what would you say to them,

Dr. Louise Barrett 25:17

I think if you're self conscious about your height, you have to recognize that what we're picking up on is not just height in and of itself, because you're always behaving in the world. So it's about your confidence how you're coming across. So if you can walk with the confidence of someone who's six foot, if you will, you will not be perceived immediately, you might be well, you will be perceived as a short person, but all the kind of negative things that might go along with that won't affect you, because you're giving off different vibes. So I think that that's the thing to remember is, it's just one facet of what we're picking up about people. So if you can move through the world, easy with yourself, and unconfident in, you're unhappy in your body, other people will pick that up, too. And so you can, so I think it can be like the self fulfilling prophecies that you're self conscious about your height, you behave in a way that gives off these vibes about that height. And other people pick up on that and start seeing you in terms of your height and, and associating it with these particular behaviors when they didn't need to. And if you were just way more outgoing, and walked through the world differently. Even it wouldn't people wouldn't necessarily pick up on that. Act as if act as if Yeah,

Nick VinZant 26:32

that's pretty much all the questions we got. Is there anything else that we think that we missed or anything like that?

Dr. Louise Barrett 26:37

No, no, I don't, I don't think so. I think the only thing I would say is, you know, like I said, these effects are there, but they're not massively drastic. And so if you're not happy with your height, I just wouldn't worry about it too much. You're, you're going you're probably gonna have a happy life. Even if you're even if you're a short man or a tall woman, it's not that it ultimately all shakes out in the end, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it on these things.

Nick VinZant 27:06

I want to thank Dr. Barrett's so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have included her information in the episode description. And we have also linked to her on our social media sites, or Profoundly Pointless on tick tock threads, Instagram and YouTube and the YouTube version of this episode, we'll be live on August 10, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you feel like your bias against people based on their height?

John Shull 27:39

I'm gonna say no, but probably, I will say I'm probably biased more on people's hair color than I am height. Hmm.

Nick VinZant 27:48

I'm bias against people's overall kind of demeanor. Not necessarily like not their height, not their weight, not their higher color, not even necessarily their overall attractiveness, but how they carry themselves. If I see somebody that doesn't carry themselves very well, like they don't seem like they move with confidence. That's probably where I do most of my judging.

John Shull 28:12

You know, movement, body posture is a big one for me. You know, how you walk how you carry yourself, how you eat? Eating is a big one, even though I eat like a caveman. But still, what do you mean, how you eat? You know, like, for instance, if I'm out to eat with somebody, whether it's a professional dinner or whatever, or even with friends, and they hit their teeth with the fork, it's game over. I can't help but say something.

Nick VinZant 28:41

Yeah, I don't, I don't know if I have anything like that, that if somebody does that. It's just an immediate, like, oh, I don't like that person. Besides it besides a handshake with a man and he gives you a limp handshake. I don't have anything else like that. If they do that.

John Shull 28:57

I don't know what to do. When I get a limp handshake. I kind of just go with it. I almost live with myself,

Nick VinZant 29:03

you kind of have to do that. And that's I think why it bothers you so much is that you have to return the limpness with limpness. And then not only do use your estimation of them drop, but your feelings about yourself drop as well. It really kind of takes both of you down, which is why it bothers people so much, I think but

John Shull 29:20

as it should. Live, handshakes are terrible.

Nick VinZant 29:24

So wait, what do you mean that you judge people by their hair color? Like what's your favorite hair color? What's your least favorite hair color?

John Shull 29:30

I mean, anytime you see a ginger, you're like, oh boy, oh geez.

Nick VinZant 29:37

I don't really think that about ginger is necessarily

John Shull 29:39

I mean, less than I say that's half kidding. But also there are just like anything in life. There are stereotypes around you know, like blond haired women, Ginger men, you know, certain certain I don't want to say classes but because that's not the right Word but, you know, certain kinds of hairstyles or hair colors. I mean, and for all of you out there that are thinking that I'm an asshole we, you know, you think the same thing sometimes. Yeah, everybody

Nick VinZant 30:11

judges the only thing that kind of throws me off about hair colors if it's very brightly colored in different ways, you know what I mean? Like, if they've got a lot of hair color that's going on up there. That's usually signifying to me that like, okay, there's going to be something. Right, like, you're gonna, they're gonna be an intense person.

John Shull 30:32

I mean, nowadays, because everybody has them. Tattoos are pretty easy, chargeable. I mean, you know, I, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with somebody that has a face tattoo, where they weren't or didn't serve some kind of prison time.

Nick VinZant 30:48

I don't know anybody with a face tattoo. Do you know anybody with a face tattoo?

John Shull 30:52

Not Well, it does, like, upper neck count. Like almost to the cheek.

Nick VinZant 30:59

back of the neck, side of the neck or front of the neck.

John Shull 31:02

This would be front and side.

Nick VinZant 31:05

Front, pretty so very noticeable, right? Like not necessarily covered up by the Yeah, I would feel like that counts. It's not quite the same level, but it's like right there. Like you should have just gone all the way and gone into the face, but

John Shull 31:19

and there are flames which make them even worse. Yeah, that's

Nick VinZant 31:23

gonna Yeah, it's like, what

John Shull 31:24

are you doing? Brian,

Nick VinZant 31:26

you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to have a really good resume. Right? I'm still to have a really good rest. I'm still

John Shull 31:33

under the impression and this is probably wrong. But if you have, like facial tattoos or piercings that are extravagant, I don't know how you get a job. I don't know. I mean, I mean, and I once again, I don't say that like being a dick. I just what professional companies gonna want you to represent them when you have a, you know, a barcode tattooed on your face.

Nick VinZant 31:58

I am a person who in the past has been a hiring manager. And I would say that, well, I've never had anybody that did that. I mean, I've never had someone that had like a tattoo or just a really noticeable kind of thing where they go

John Shull 32:15

to whole rant. I have a whole rant on it, but I'll say that because it's probably ignorant.

Nick VinZant 32:19

Do you want to go to your Do you want to do your WrestleMania wrap up?

John Shull 32:23

It was SummerSlam.

Nick VinZant 32:25

Sorry, so

John Shull 32:27

I'll keep it brief.

Nick VinZant 32:29

You know what I've never really understood. I still don't know the difference between semifinals and quarterfinals. Which one is like farther, closer to winning the whole thing. Do you do the quarterfinals first and then the semi finals? Or is it semifinals? And then quarterfinals?

John Shull 32:44

No, it's It's always semi finals. And then final.

Nick VinZant 32:48

But winner the quarterfinals

John Shull 32:51

those are before the semis.

Nick VinZant 32:55

Quarter just seems like it's semi shouldn't be better than semi. Oh, now I get it semi like it's almost the finals. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Anyway. Oh,

John Shull 33:05

my. Russell are my oh my god, my SummerSlam wrap up. Let's see for the actual event itself. Can

Nick VinZant 33:14

we can we do something? I know you make every Can you can you make it rhyme in some way. Like habit like, went to see the Hulk. He had a lot of bulk. slammed him I can't, that'd be basically impossible. If you can do it.

John Shull 33:31

American try, no one's gonna want to hear this. But for your pleasure, I can try to do it. SummerSlam, the event itself was okay. WWE puts on a live experience, like no other production company in the world, comma. If you're missing if you haven't been to a WWE event, and you're not even a fan, you should go at least once in your lifetime. Because the event will blow you away. I was a little let down by the city of Detroit,

Nick VinZant 34:06

as most people are.

John Shull 34:09

My let down. This was because I stayed in Greek town, which is right next to Ford Field. And if I was somebody coming in from out of town, I would have felt intimidated by the fact that there were four to eight Detroit police officers on every street corner. And there was metal detectors that you had to walk through to get to a downtown part of the city.

Nick VinZant 34:33

That is a weird thing. Right? Like if you have so much security, it both makes you feel a little bit safe and like something might happen. That's like wait a minute, why are there so many people here? I just why is the army here with a tank? We should probably we should leave because you liked the event itself. You had a good time. Did you make a fool of yourself?

John Shull 34:52

I did. And once again, I know this is over six senses now but nobody puts on a live event like the WT WV They are masters of their craft, you can say what you will about the actual action itself. But I mean when I'm when I'm here telling you that Logan Paul is a bonafide wrestler, and I would pay money to just see him wrestle. Something's wrong. The only real disappointment for me was No, no rock, no, Dwayne Johnson, when all the indicators were that he would be here or there, I guess in Detroit, other than that, great times have won some money at the casino, which was nice. drink way too much whiskey the night before. And yeah, it was good. It was, it was all good. And for our international listeners, by the way, WWE does all kinds of events around the world. So if you if they're within, you know, a certain mileage of you, I'm telling you, you should check it out. It'd be worth your time.

Nick VinZant 35:54

I do feel like even though I'm not a wrestling fan, I do feel like that would be an interesting thing to see at least one time on on a scale of one to five, it's real to me Damn, it's how many it's real dummies. Are you giving it?

John Shull 36:08

Well, I'm gonna break it down for the actual events for the continuation of the storylines. The soap opera. I'll give it three and a half, four environments and just being there. Five 810

Nick VinZant 36:24

that good, huh? Okay, for

John Shull 36:26

the city and what they did a five I mean, you know, 3040 60 80 million back into the economy. You know, like, fantastic. So yeah, so it was it was it was great a great times. I mean, I don't regret it.

Nick VinZant 36:43

Okay. All right. Let's do some shout outs.

John Shull 36:46

Shout out time time. All right. Let's see. We'll start with Max McConnell. Not to be confused with Mitch McConnell who? still staring off into space. Clayton Ducard. Tomorrow, Paige. Amanda Jeffrey. By the way, that McConnell joke was pretty funny. Lindsey farmer, James L. Miller. I like a good middle initial that kind of strong and I feel like L is one of those letters.

Nick VinZant 37:14

J LM is that alphabetical ABCDEFG H I J K Oh, if he had a K in there?

John Shull 37:21

Definitely. Ah, K. Casey. Corey Schroeder. The oil of the C chord with a que corre with a C. To the right. Okay. All right. Okay. Ju Arnheim John Martin, Evelyn Brewer. And I'm going to end with Theo Poggi. That I'm not entirely sure I'm saying the last name correctly. It's P O ggi. So I think it's podgy

Nick VinZant 37:51

P O GG I Pogi it's whatever. I like the name feel I like an Evelyn to classic old and that's like a classic modern

John Shull 38:00

name. We're Americans man always say is pagi or Pogi. Pogi. Like the fish. All right. You ready for some factor fiction?

Nick VinZant 38:09

Okay, all right. Okay, Week Five wants you to know I went for for for last time. By the way. No, you

John Shull 38:14

went to for four, didn't you? No, I

Nick VinZant 38:16

didn't. I went four for four.

John Shull 38:19

Okay, well, you know what now is what? What matters.

Nick VinZant 38:22

Okay. All right. I agree with that. All right, let's

John Shull 38:25

start off with this one. Profoundly Pointless Fact or Fiction? Blue Whales eat half a million calories. And one mouthful.

Nick VinZant 38:36

I mean, that seems like getting half a million. So that's like 500,000. No, I think that's probably a little bit too much. That would be my guess.

John Shull 38:48

Starting off on a terrible note. That is true many.

Nick VinZant 38:51

Boy Oh, man. mouthful.

John Shull 38:54

I don't know how the hell this is measured, by the way. But apparently, it's for 450,000 calories.

Nick VinZant 39:04

You know, that's not half a million

John Shull 39:07

Close to close.

Nick VinZant 39:09

Now, I think that was incorrect phrasing on the question. See,

John Shull 39:12

see. For those of you just listening to this, you're going to hear probably every question I asked or bring up well,

Nick VinZant 39:18

wait a minute. How did you phrase the entry of the question? You said Blue Whales eat half a million calories a day? And I said no. So they don't need 450,000 which is not half a million. Thank you. Right. Once again. That's not half a million. I'm sorry if we're going to be sticklers on facts. And let's be sticklers on facts. 450 is not 500

John Shull 39:42

We'll call it a wash. Call it

Nick VinZant 39:44

correct on me. Well, you said do they need half a million? And I said no, they don't. And then you said the 450,000 which is not what? How many

John Shull 39:53

Nicklin Czanne's would that be? That's what I want to know.

Nick VinZant 39:56

500 I don't know. I mean, well calorie each pound to eat a pound is 3500 calories. I know that. So take I can't do that. Yeah, let's let's just move on 75 times 3500 factor

John Shull 40:10

fiction, chimps have more hair than humans.

Nick VinZant 40:16

I'd bet we have the same amount of hair.

John Shull 40:19

No, actually, we have between and why we I mean, humans have between two and 5 million hair follicles, which is just about two and a half percent more than what chimps have for National Geographic.

Nick VinZant 40:39

Hmm. I mean, I could pick that one apart, too, if you really wanted me to, right. Like that's a huge difference in the number of hairs. So a chimp could have just as many hairs or less hairs than we have. Right? Like two to 5 million? Well, that's a huge difference.

John Shull 40:53

I think. I think you have a lot of you love just picking it apart, don't you?

Nick VinZant 40:57

I like to be factually correct is what I'm saying. Right. Like, I think that you round things up, right? Like eventually, that's how the game telephone is. All messages different by the end of it. All right.

John Shull 41:07

Well, this is going well. Factor fiction the pound signed, isn't actually called a hash tag, or a pound sign.

Nick VinZant 41:17

It's called a pound sign. No. What's it called?

John Shull 41:22

Its technical name is an octothorpe. Pa. And Octo means eight to refer to the points. Though records will disagree where Thorpe came from some claim it was after Olympian Jim Thorpe, while others argue it is just a nonsense suffix. But it is known as an octothorpe.

Nick VinZant 41:47

I think that that's probably the pound sign is a little bit. I never understood how they got pound sign off of that. Like, that doesn't seem like pound in any way.

John Shull 41:57

I mean, I've no idea.

Nick VinZant 41:59

Okay, I

John Shull 42:01

mean, I I feel like this one might be too easy. But we're which

Nick VinZant 42:06

which one? Are you more of a friend and fan of pressing pound sign or star?

John Shull 42:12

I'm not really a fan of either. I will tell you that I press star more than I press pound.

Nick VinZant 42:18

I'm more of a fan of a star because I know exactly which one that one is right? Like if somebody says star like okay, I know exactly which one that one is. If it's pound, I have to think about it for a second. I'm more a fan of foul starsign and pound

John Shull 42:30

I just use star more than I use pound.

Nick VinZant 42:35

Remember when you could like do star six, nine and call people back? I don't think our younger audience would know that at all. But if somebody called you on a landline was John has a landline. So he can still do that. You could do like star six, nine and they would call them immediately or call them right back. There's all these tricks that you could do.

John Shull 42:52

Here's the thing is, is you keep giving me crap about my landline. Someday it's gonna save my life might save your life.

Nick VinZant 43:02

It might Yeah. You never know. Like,

John Shull 43:05

who knows? Maybe, maybe you're gonna call me one day. You're choking on a cookie and I don't answer myself. So you call my house number which

Nick VinZant 43:12

I call them. You're not going to answer that either. Yeah, probably not. Right? I just like making fun of the landline because it's ridiculous that you have it. How much you pay a month for it.

John Shull 43:22

Oh, like 30 bucks.

Nick VinZant 43:24

Do you pay $30 for a landline?

John Shull 43:27

I mean, it's Express $360 a year. Anyways, last one. How

Nick VinZant 43:31

long have you had it? How long have you had it?

John Shull 43:33

I mean, since I moved into this house, so six years?

Nick VinZant 43:38

Me and that's like $2,500 or something like that? Right? 360 that's it that six years? That's like 2000 bucks. You've wasted on your landline? Think about

John Shull 43:47

that. I don't think about that. I don't think of it as a waste. When's the last time you use waterfall the cell towers? Just you know what if the aliens officially attack?

Nick VinZant 43:58

How you're gonna have bigger problems? Who Yeah, who are you going to call other people

John Shull 44:04

with landlines? Do you know their numbers? Only my mother in law.

Nick VinZant 44:08

So there you had you spend $2,000 there all my mother off. You spent $2,000 Over the last decade. Decades to be able to call your mom.

John Shull 44:19

It's my mother in law.

Nick VinZant 44:21

She's such a sweet guy. John is a sweet man. Thank you. Is it sweet man.

John Shull 44:26

Appreciate that. Last Last question here. Coffee comes from beans.

Nick VinZant 44:34

Well, I mean it has to write like their coffee beans. So otherwise this is a huge scam but it's probably false because some there's some thing that like some trick in the question, so I'm gonna go with false

John Shull 44:48

No, you are wrong. So they're advertised as coffee beans. However, the name doesn't actually make any sense since coffee. It comes from the pit inside of the coffee fruit. If we were being accurate, we should call them coffee seeds.

Nick VinZant 45:08

Well, didn't I say no, that was probably fake because it had to be some trick.

John Shull 45:12

Yeah, but that doesn't count. You're really saying that you said that. It probably was true, but then you're like, ooh, probably is, you know, because

Nick VinZant 45:19

it's probably something along those lines, but it's like a technicality. And I feel like this is a technicality. Like they're not beans even though we call them beans.

John Shull 45:28

I mean, listen, if it is a technicality people have been on these the last few weeks, they will tell me or you or us that it is technically correct.

Nick VinZant 45:37

Yeah, I mean, they were like, What is the thing right? Like if everybody thinks the red truck is blue? Perception is reality if I think that they're being their beans, and if you come in here and saying, Hey, you got any coffee fruit? Like no. Do you remember that?

John Shull 45:53

Let's see. Not a liar liar with Jim Carrey. No, never seen God damn pen is blue, otter and underrated actor at least in like the mid to mid 90s to late 90s. I think

Nick VinZant 46:07

he's one of the actors that was incredibly famous and then kind of like, disappeared.

John Shull 46:11

I feel like he tried a real actor. And he got shut out. He couldn't, couldn't sell the goods where you got to act.

Nick VinZant 46:19

He was a good actor. He had some good ones. I think that he just kind of went off on like a weird tangent about, like, he tried to make his artsy movies and people weren't into his artsy movies.

John Shull 46:29

Well, didn't he? Also, he got with Jenny McCarthy back then too. And locked down. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 46:35

that's a whole thing. Which Yeah. I don't know about that. But he did something that well,

John Shull 46:41

we all did some.

Nick VinZant 46:43

We've all done something. Okay. Are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 46:45

I am, are we're gonna go back to school, I think

Nick VinZant 46:48

back to school, baby top five school supplies, which are number five.

John Shull 46:53

So this has to be specific. But my number five is a mechanical pencil. Don't give me any of that number to crap or pens. Give me a good mechanical pencil at some point. 07 lead.

Nick VinZant 47:07

I never understood the mechanical pencil. I never understood the kid who had the mechanical pencil, right? Like all you who are you Mr. Fancy Pants. You can't write with a regular pencil, the regular pencil is not good enough, you gotta go get a mechanical one. And it seemed like more of a pain in the ass because you had to fill it up all the time. Like if you just lost a pencil, you just lost him, you just got another one. But it's a big deal. If you lose a mechanical pencil,

John Shull 47:28

here's my problem with number two pencils is that you always like you either have to have to sharpen them every like five minutes or they become dull. You don't get the crispness that you do a mechanical pencil for as long. But you

Nick VinZant 47:41

got to change it out. Anyway. Here's what else you got to change out the light in the mechanical pen. So

John Shull 47:47

that's not enough the razor dumped some in the tube and you're good to go.

Nick VinZant 47:51

Isn't it the same problem though, ultimately, that you're just gonna have to be clicking the thing all

John Shull 47:54

the time. Fine. Clicking used to be cool if you remember that. Yeah, but that if you could sharp

Nick VinZant 47:59

sharpen the pencil, then you could go up and like you could take a break in class. He's like, I gotta sharpen my pencil.

John Shull 48:06

No, I don't know what pencil you're sharp pencil sharp.

Nick VinZant 48:08

You could be at the pencil sharpener for like, two or three minutes.

John Shull 48:12

What kind of pencil sharpener you prefer? Like automatic. Were you one of those roto guys, you know, we're the old school ones.

Nick VinZant 48:18

No, my favorite kind of pencil sharpener is the one that was like bolted to the wall. Yes. That's

John Shull 48:23

what he's talking about. Where do you have to like physically crank it right?

Nick VinZant 48:26

Right. Like it wasn't you weren't responsible enough to have it on like the teacher's desk or a desk somewhere because he couldn't like hold it down and sharpen it had to be like bolted to the wall.

John Shull 48:35

You know, Mr. Murphy, he hated that when you got pencil shavings on his carpet.

Nick VinZant 48:39

And don't do that. That's where we are as a society and educational system. Is that like we're supposed to be educated, but we have to bolt the pencil sharpener to the wall, because otherwise people are gonna fuck it up.

John Shull 48:49

They're gonna fuck it out. Absolutely. fuck it up.

Nick VinZant 48:52

My number five. I don't think it gets any credit. I don't think it deserves a lot of credit. But it is a staple of school and that is the Kleenex boxes. Everybody has to have the Kleenex boxes.

John Shull 49:07

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's kind of it's kind of lame to me. But it's fine. It's it is what? Oh, it's

Nick VinZant 49:13

lame, right. But then when everybody's sneezing in the classroom and you don't have any Kleenex boxes. That is the one school supply that is for the good of

John Shull 49:20

the whole class. Yeah, but you're not there for the good of the whole class. You're there to learn.

Nick VinZant 49:25

Right? But you can't learn if everybody's sick, all that kind of stuff. What's your number four.

John Shull 49:30

So I don't expect a lot of people to get this or maybe I do but it is Elmers glue. But it's the blue kind that you could like see through almost look like water. It was fantastic. I'd have like eight bottles and start off every school year.

Nick VinZant 49:47

What is your family doing was your school supplies. We this is the thing. This is where it started. This is where your beer snobbery and your music snobbery and all that snobbery started was with schools so which isn't true, but I got it for listening for the first time. Gotta have a mechanical pencil. John, do you want the clear? Do you want the regular glue that everybody else has? No, I need the fancy clear glue. I love the I love the this is where you're snorting. This is where you're snobbery started.

John Shull 50:11

What's your number? A boolean?

Nick VinZant 50:13

Pro? Craster? No eight. What is it called? a protractor. You knew that you were getting into some fancy stuff when you had to get like the protractor and the little compass the thing I don't know if that's also called a protractor but it's like this and the spinning around.

John Shull 50:28

So my number three is the TI 82 calculator.

Nick VinZant 50:32

More the graphing calculator, man,

John Shull 50:35

right. You could make like little words on it like, you know hell yeah. Or ass like,

Nick VinZant 50:41

boobs. booties. Can you still do boobs on the calculator if you need to? Yeah,

John Shull 50:47

60065 Boobs.

Nick VinZant 50:51

Do you remember any other ones? Hell was like 7344?

John Shull 50:57

No, 7311 I think

Nick VinZant 51:02

for hell Oh, yeah. Could be else. I put two H's.

John Shull 51:06

That was always fun. That was, yeah, I needed like, if you were smart enough, you could download games through AOL that took an hour and a half to download like one seven milah bite game or something.

Nick VinZant 51:18

I remember being in John Truex, his house, a friend of mine in like seventh or eighth grade. And that was the first time that you could get like, nude images on the internet. And we like downloaded one, but then had to come back like two hours later.

John Shull 51:32

Like, oh, yeah, look at this, for sure.

Nick VinZant 51:37

What's number three?

John Shull 51:39

That was my number three.

Nick VinZant 51:40

Oh, my number three, is it going to be a sleeper pick. I don't think people maybe have thought about this necessarily. But I realized this when looking at my number three is an index card. If you had the kid in class, who brought the index cards, you knew that they were going to study they were the person that you probably wanted to sit next to and cheat off of, or they were the person that you wanted on your group project. The kid with an index card was like a massive sign that that was the kid that you wanted to be like, okay, they're actually going to try here.

John Shull 52:14

Never thought that ever. And I I don't recall ever seeing any index cards at my school, but I'm sure

Nick VinZant 52:22

you never had somebody with index cards that would like right, the answers like, what is this like boron? No. Number of whatever. No, the only one I remember is iron. Which is like Fe like Fe iron. Yeah, that's all wrong. It's probably the b Actually now that I think about let's not

John Shull 52:41

quiz each other on the periodic element table.

Nick VinZant 52:45

How many elements can you name? Seven elements? Right?

John Shull 52:49

Oh, God. Oh, that's a tough question.

Nick VinZant 52:51

Can you name seven elements?

John Shull 52:55

Oxygen.

Nick VinZant 52:56

Yeah, okay.

John Shull 52:57

Oh, can I name them?

Nick VinZant 52:59

Yeah, just name

John Shull 53:00

I think I can name them more more than give you the symbol. Oh, yeah. Harbin.

Nick VinZant 53:07

Okay, you got to

John Shull 53:08

iron. Yeah. sulphide sulfate.

Nick VinZant 53:15

I don't think that's the one row. Thank you. Still at three.

John Shull 53:19

Oh, God.

Nick VinZant 53:21

Phone a friend. No, there's like 100 and we can't name

John Shull 53:25

No, I'm holding gold. Yeah, silver. Yeah. Two more nickel.

Nick VinZant 53:35

I don't know. This is I don't know.

John Shull 53:37

I sound so terrible. Um, I haven't thought about the carbon dioxide carbon already.

Nick VinZant 53:42

You've already got carbon

John Shull 53:46

Do you have any?

Nick VinZant 53:49

Come on, dude. You gotta have heat on it. No, I don't look them up. I should be.

John Shull 53:58

Magnesium. Yeah, dude, one more helium.

Nick VinZant 54:03

Yeah, the ones I was thinking of was like, nitrogen. Nice zinc. Aluminum.

John Shull 54:09

I mean, I'm not even like oh tungsten, my ring tungsten.

Nick VinZant 54:14

That nicer is that cheap.

John Shull 54:16

I mean, I think it's a sturdy. It's not it's not expensive or nice. It's just it's a sturdy. You needed

Nick VinZant 54:21

you would look at some of the rings and you're like, you know what steel is just not going to cut it for me. I need something harder than steel. Oh,

John Shull 54:27

not me. He was all my wife. Okay, all right. We're coming to me now that I think about it but like, yeah, yeah, like, like easy ones like calcium, things like that. I'm not gonna get like the beryllium or, or Hall. atonium Well, plutonium rhenium. I mean, look together. We've already named like half of them. So we're doing well. I

Nick VinZant 54:50

think there's like 100 and something. What's your

John Shull 54:55

van? This is where it gets tough. Yeah, I want to I think it actually gets easier. I want to hire this could be interchangeable for my number two. I'm just gonna go just a notepad, this paper.

Nick VinZant 55:08

Okay, okay, I think that you got that a little bit low. My number two is Kranz

John Shull 55:15

Oh see I don't have crayons, markers colored pencils I don't have any of those on my list.

Nick VinZant 55:20

Well obviously it's crayons number one markers number two and colored pencils number three and if you were going to rank those

John Shull 55:26

I would go color pencils markers, crayons.

Nick VinZant 55:30

Oh, you're just a pencil man then

John Shull 55:33

God dang. Pencil dig. Pencil is dead. My number one is a trapper keeper.

Nick VinZant 55:40

Okay, that sets the stage for everything else that's inside the Trapper Keeper rights.

John Shull 55:45

And once again, I guess do they even sell them anymore? Because today's generation would have no idea how cool it was to get a new Trapper Keeper.

Nick VinZant 55:56

Who was your go to Trapper Keeper? What do you have on there?

John Shull 55:59

I did I had the like the five star like just black one. You know, right? The six pockets.

Nick VinZant 56:05

That's the right answer. Yeah, right. Don't put don't when you're gonna get a nice Trapper Keeper. You keep it clean back up clean, classic

John Shull 56:12

spot for the condoms. spot for the Koch. Let's go.

Nick VinZant 56:17

How many people ever put like drugs or?

John Shull 56:20

I know they have. I didn't do it. But I've seen people do it in school before.

Nick VinZant 56:26

You had people who had condoms and cocaine and their Trapper keepers no

John Shull 56:30

knock. Weed though, you know, joints and stuff.

Nick VinZant 56:35

That's not a great place to keep it if you think about it. Right? Like, what was the point of putting it in there? Just put it in your pocket.

John Shull 56:41

If you were a high school teacher, would you even like care? Would you just be like, that's impressive kid. Just don't smoke it on school grounds.

Nick VinZant 56:48

If you've got condoms in your Trapper Keeper, no, we're

John Shull 56:51

not condoms.

Nick VinZant 56:53

I mean, like, you'd have to care. Like, you probably don't want to like, let that slide. Even if you have if you're personally okay with it. Like you got to kind of report that, like if kids are in a fistfight in your room. Even if they really, like you gotta like, you gotta tell somebody. I get it.

John Shull 57:09

I get it. Yeah, right. I get it.

Nick VinZant 57:10

Now he just punched him in the face. No big deal. My number one is a notepad or actually a notebook? Because you could get multiple notebooks and I would have a different notebook. I think for for each day, we had different days. Like you went to these classes this day and these classes that day. Oh, I may have even had a different notebook notebook for each subject in high school. Oh, I was so bougie because you different notepads? Really? Yeah. Did I like to keep it organized and have a trapper keeper, right, a trapper keeper was way more expensive. You could easily get seven to eight notebooks for the price of one Trapper Keeper. Oh, easily, easily.

John Shull 57:46

So really, I was actually being cheap. I wonder what Hold on. I want to see what a trapper keeper costs today. If they even make them still

Nick VinZant 57:55

1699 Let's see here. All right. Yes.

John Shull 58:04

How much is it Target has a five star Trapper Keeper.

Nick VinZant 58:09

How much am I? Oh,

John Shull 58:11

this can't be right. 1099 No way.

Nick VinZant 58:15

It seems a little cheap is a little bit less than I thought it would be. Yeah, that.

John Shull 58:18

That's like, oh, well, it looks like they are around 10 to $15 still okay, good for them. Good for Trapper Keeper, man. Okay,

Nick VinZant 58:26

how much your notebooks I remember being like 99 cents. Oh, yeah, you

John Shull 58:29

can get them. I mean, I just walked by a stand the other day at Meijer where they were like 89 cents a thing. college wide ruled What are you going with? College rule don't come in here with wide ruled that I was I was a wide rule kind of guy. Well,

Nick VinZant 58:46

I don't have anything to say.

John Shull 58:48

nothing nice to say. though. I can still fit in one seat at Ford Field. So that's good.

Nick VinZant 58:54

That's good. Yeah. Did you ever fit into? No. Have you ever had to buy two seats? If something

John Shull 59:00

never buy bottom half? isn't that big? That's the problem. Yeah, you

Nick VinZant 59:05

are built like a parent. Yes.

John Shull 59:06

I mean, I haven't changed in decades. So I'm still still a pair.

Nick VinZant 59:12

That's good. What's in your honorable mention?

John Shull 59:14

Sticky Notes? Good like a post it note like those are good. Okay, you seem I don't know why you would have those as a high school kid because you're passing notes to your future Mrs. Shoal.

Nick VinZant 59:28

Ah, I guess I was left out of that. But not surprising that's left out of that. A state would just rip off paper from the notebook they

John Shull 59:36

stapler Staple Remover pad to everyone. Oh my gosh, she made a mistake you know and stapled something wrong which happened a lot and then a ruler to stay but like one of those cool rulers like he had to have not like like maybe like a clear one. Not like you know the tan half fake wood ones that they give you. Oh yeah.

Nick VinZant 59:58

No, I could go with like the brightly colored plastic um, that to me is an acceptable rule or color. But if you had like the old school wouldn't want like that was not fun. No kind of a lame one break

John Shull 1:00:09

in half then you get suspended. What? What's in your arm I mentioned? Backpack. I think you need a good backpack but backpack.

Nick VinZant 1:00:16

Yeah, man did you go one shoulder to shoulder?

John Shull 1:00:19

I've always I still carry a backpack into work every day. And I'm a one shoulder guy.

Nick VinZant 1:00:24

Okay, I still carry a backpack into work when I didn't work remotely but I was a to shoulder man as the good Lord intended.

John Shull 1:00:31

I will tell you about the know ya know what one shoulder man one shoulder,

Nick VinZant 1:00:36

two shoulders to shoulders these both hands free. You're not prepared. Right? How are you going to protect the drugs and your Trapper Keeper if you don't have both hands free

John Shull 1:00:44

the condoms? I was worried about.

Nick VinZant 1:00:46

Ah tape. I don't think I really had any tape. Yeah, I was okay with markers. Markers means you were moving up in the little bit world a little bit if you were gonna get a box of crayons. Like how many did you get? Did you get to 816 3264 64

John Shull 1:01:01

all day? Don't come at me with that bullshit. Where I got like maybe a brown. I got three colors of brown. All right.

Nick VinZant 1:01:10

Man, you see that's what I mean. Maybe this is where it started for you. I only had like 16 Maybe I got a 32 on my birthday.

John Shull 1:01:17

Well, in kindness my seniors senior

Nick VinZant 1:01:19

year.

John Shull 1:01:22

Happy birthdays on here's a 32 pack of crayons.

Nick VinZant 1:01:26

Dad, I'm 18 Well, then you can move out. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really helps out the show. And let us know what you think are some of the best school supplies. I really think that this pattern of snobbery in John's life can be traced back to his earliest days in school. mechanical pencils, special glue, lots of crayons and markers and colored pencils. He's just been pampered his whole life. And he's used to it now.

Boudoir Photographer Joanna Tiger

It’s intimate. It’s erotic. It’s sexual. But that’s not really what Boudoir Photography is all about. Boudoir Photographer Joanna Tiger says it’s really about empowerment - being confidant with who you are and how you look. We talk Boudoir Photography, building a nationwide business and why more and more women and men are turning to intimate photography. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Johns of All Time.

Joanna Tiger: 01:24

Pointless:30:50

Candle of the Month: 48:36

Top 5 Johns: 54:58

Contact the Show

ThreeBoudoir Website

ThreeBoudior Instagram

ThreeBoudior TikTok

Interview with Boudoir Photographer Joanna Tiger

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, intimate photography, and John's,

Joanna Tiger 0:20

I have a master's degree in chemistry, I was working in a marketing background and I had a top secret Playboy career no one knew about more and more, we're seeing women who are not necessarily doing it as a gift for someone else. They're doing it for themselves, they want to feel confident and comfortable. Or we had a woman who was an avid scuba divers she brought like scuba, like the fins and the slippers and the mask and the snorkel.

Nick VinZant 0:46

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest has built a nationwide business based on intimate photography. But this isn't erotica. And it's not always sexual. It's really about empowerment. This is boudoir photographer, Joanna Tiger. How'd you get into this?

Joanna Tiger 1:25

Well, the business sort of happened kind of on accident. I was a top secret Playboy model for many years of my life and top secret because nobody knew. And I had met a co worker, we were working at a marketing company together and she was sharing that her husband was overseas. And she wanted to kind of send them some tasteful Fun, flirty photos. And I decided to confide in her that I had modeling experience in this world. And maybe we should try to get photos for her. So she had a photography background. So she talked me sort of through the photography piece, we have another photographer friend join us. And I was doing the posing and helping her get into these, you know, fixing hair and outfits. And we did her photos. And we started showing them to friends and family and everyone wanted photos. So we were working our full time job in this marketing agency during the weekend doing photo shoots on the weekend. And that's it just sort of happened organically and naturally. From there. I have a master's degree in chemistry, I was working in a marketing background and I had a top secret Playboy career no one knew about

Nick VinZant 2:40

so Is it is it erotic? Is it semi erotic? Like where's the line? Exactly? Yeah,

Joanna Tiger 2:45

I think it's, it's what you want it to be out of the chute. So I mean, erotic, you know, there's so many definitions for what that means to you or what that means to another person. So we follow our clients lead. So wherever they're comfortable going, if they want to do birthday suit, fully nude photos, great. If they're not into that we don't you know, we don't push it, we don't ask for it. It's what you make the most of your shoot, you do what you want. So if it's lingerie or we have some women who come and wear off the shoulder sweaters, or we recently had someone who does roller derby and she brought her skates and all these, you know, things that are specific and important to her. So it's I say it's tasteful. There's nothing overtly lewd or, you know, crude about it. And it's what our clients want out of their shoot.

Nick VinZant 3:35

But they're trying to elicit a certain response from the person who is getting the picture, I assume, correct?

Joanna Tiger 3:40

Well, the assumption there is that the photos are for someone else, when they are not always for someone else. A lot of women are doing this to celebrate milestones in their own life or to you know, kick off some big change, they want it, they want it, you know, they come in, they're so nervous, they come out, they feel amazing, and they start making other changes in their life, or we have a lot of therapists who recommend women who have suffered some sort of sexual assault or sexual trauma who are looking to reclaim their sexual agency, they will come in for a photo shoot, because it's a safe, structured environment where you can be vulnerable with other people and be supported through it. So yes, a lot of times it is for other people. It is a gift for someone else but not always

Nick VinZant 4:32

backing up just a little bit like when we talk about like boudoir photography. What exactly like what how would you kind of define what that is?

Joanna Tiger 4:42

Well, I think what people think it is is sexy photos, lingerie photography, but I think what it actually ends up being is confident building empowering photo shoots, in a supportive judgment free space, so it doesn't always Have to be lingerie we have women who will bring in summer dresses or boy shorts and tank tops or so it doesn't have to be sexy by what society thinks sexy as it can be whatever that means to you.

Nick VinZant 5:13

Is it different than intimate photography? Or is that the same thing? It's just called?

Joanna Tiger 5:17

I think it's the same thing. It is an intimate photography experience. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:22

How popular is this, like, if we surveyed, let's say, one in 10 women, how many of them are getting this done?

Joanna Tiger 5:29

I think it's more popular than people now than people would expect. I think for a long time, it was sort of something that wedding photographers offered to brides as part of their bridal package. So it was sort of this within the the bridal party, maybe they knew about it. But now it has really expanded and it's everywhere. Like we operate in 26 different cities, and we have competitors in all of those cities. So it's, it's pretty popular, I think, if you said you know, how many out of 10? Six, seven,

Nick VinZant 6:00

that many? We kind of talked about this a little bit, but to kind of put a finger directly on it, right? Like why do people usually come in what's the reason that people are going to come in and get these done?

Joanna Tiger 6:11

I think it's different by area. Like when we first when we opened our first studio, we were right outside of a military base. So we saw a lot of military wives who were doing it as a gift for husbands who are potentially overseas or serving somewhere. So that's one reason it's a big part of right now, our summer brides are doing it for wedding gifts for their partners. But it's also women celebrating a divorce. They're so happy, they're divorced, they want to come in and get these photos done. I mean, we tell women all the time, like you can do boudoir photography, because all the socks matched up coming out of the dryer like there's no right or wrong reason you can come in for anything. And more and more, we're seeing women who are not necessarily doing it as a gift for someone else. They're doing it for themselves. They want to feel confident and comfortable in their body and have gorgeous images in the end to look out for themselves or and potentially share with other people but it's mostly for themselves.

Nick VinZant 7:11

I kind of get that I kind of don't get that maybe it's just my personality, but like I got a promotion at work. All right, let's get into the underwear and go take some pictures. Right like I don't I get it. But I don't like I don't get in at the same time think

Joanna Tiger 7:26

you have to go through the experience or know someone who's had the experience. Imagine like being it's a very nerve wracking sort of can be very scary and overwhelming to think about. Like if someone showed up in my living room right now and was like getting your underwear. I'm taking your photo, I'd be like, No, I am not ready. I haven't shaved my my hair isn't what I would want to wear. I'm not wearing the right under like no. So the prep work and the preparation that you have to do to get ready for it both mentally and in outfits and hair and makeup. It can be overwhelming and and scary. And am I good enough? And can I do these photos? And will I look good? And maybe I'll have one photo I like then you go through this super supportive, empowering, fun, celebratory experience and you come out and you're like, I'm flippin rock star. Can you can't believe I did that. Anytime you overcome nerves. You know, when you come out on the other side of it. You're like, whoa, like, I did it. I feel so good. I feel amazing. What else can I do? So I think that's where it comes from. Women are just looking to keep like celebration going looking to celebrate themselves and feel amazing afterwards.

Nick VinZant 8:38

I kind of get the ideas like I still got it. I got it, right. Is there is there like if you were to say like, okay, my typical client, like is there an age range? Is

Joanna Tiger 8:47

there a they really like me work with women from like in their 20s all the way we've had 80 year olds come and shoot with us, like all ages and my favorite actually. I mean, I can't say favorite because I love all of our clients. But the older women more mature women who come in to shoot with us are the usually the most fun because they're at a point in their life where they are just they want to do it. They wish they had done it years ago. They're like they walk in the door and they are ready. You know, there's not a lot of hesitation. They're just like, where do I go? Where do I take my clothes off? Where are we going? What are we doing? I'm like they're basically stripping as they come in the door you know? So

Nick VinZant 9:26

are they well notice it takes a special kind of photographer to do this

Joanna Tiger 9:30

Absolutely. This is like one of the most vulnerable scary things to walk into. So you not only do you need to have a specific set of sort of photography skills to know you know what, what to capture within the image but you have to be the most supportive, most loving, most warm, most like instantly become best friends with these women that come in like it's such a vulnerable experience. So you have to create a safe space. So it does take special skills to do this sort of photography.

Nick VinZant 10:06

Do you get people who come in and are just extremely nervous? Like, oh, yeah,

Joanna Tiger 10:10

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I would say that's like 80% of our ladies, they something inside of them really wants to do this photo shoot, but they are terrified, rightfully so you're about to be in your underwear in front of a photographer and shoot stylists to women you've maybe never met before, with a camera. It's like even just saying that makes me it's, it's scary.

Nick VinZant 10:38

But do men do it? Like I could just meet personally, I could never see myself like, Alright, here we

Joanna Tiger 10:48

partner wanted the photos, though. What is your partner was like, I would really love you to do these photos for me.

Nick VinZant 10:53

I could never really see that side of myself. I would. But to kind of get to the question like, Do men do it? Because I would think that that's something that like probably would not be a lot of

Joanna Tiger 11:05

men. No, no men do it. And in fact, it has its own realm called dude war. So instead of boudoir, they call it dude war. And a lot of photographers offer it for men. Men are doing it for their partners, the same reasons women do it for themselves, to have better body image body positivity, body neutrality that, yeah, men are doing it.

Nick VinZant 11:25

All I would see is like, oh, that's looking a little different than he used. It's used to.

Joanna Tiger 11:30

Yeah, but that's the thing you think you're gonna pick yourself apart in the photos, you think you're gonna see them and all you're gonna focus on are the things that you focus on in the mirror that you're like, Oh, I wish this was different or this? Isn't this? What you sort of like when I was 18? And but you don't you see these photos? And you're like, holy moly. That's me. Like, that's what I look like? Yes.

Nick VinZant 11:52

But is it like ultimately at the end of it? Right? Like, there's good lighting. There's a good photographer, maybe some editing, right? Like is it really what the person looks like?

Joanna Tiger 12:01

It is really what the people look like, you are correct. The benefit of having a professional photographer, we're natural light photographers. So it's just the sun, we're not using any different lighting. And having someone pose you absolutely makes a difference. But it's still you in the photo. Like before any editing even happens, our clients see their photos. At the end of their shoot, they see all their photos and 99% of the time the reaction is, that's that's me with no editing, that's just me right out of the camera. It's like, yes, and this is how the world sees you. You know, this is how how you see yourself in the mirror. And the way you kind of can pick things apart, the rest of the world is not doing that. They're not talking that

Nick VinZant 12:44

there is one thing that I always kind of wonder maybe this is on topic, maybe this is off topic, but if the idea of like, right, like you can look at the lighting that we have doing this, you can look at the pictures that you take, like, Well, which one is really me, right? Like, I wonder is like, do I look like that? Or do I look like what I look in the mirror, right? And I always wonder about that, like, who's what is other people to other people actually see what version of

Joanna Tiger 13:06

you know, we actually did this, this is going back to my college days chemistry and physics and all of this. And when you're looking at yourself in the mirror, it's not an accurate representation of what you actually look like, even right now on this because it's flat. When people look at you, they're not saying flat. So we did experiments in school where we looked at mirrors that had angles all the way around, you see yourself and you go, Oh, that's I look completely different to other people than I do to myself in a flat mirror.

Nick VinZant 13:31

So when you started, like when you look at kind of the business aspect, I think you said 27 cities, when did it become kind of like, okay, this isn't just a side project, so to speak, like, Oh, this is like, oh, I can

Joanna Tiger 13:42

Yeah, it's a whole thing. Yeah. Well, we started in the in Maryland, that was our first state that we opened a studio. And it was my business partner and I for about two and a half, three years. And in that time, we opened a second location. And then after three years, we were really very busy. And it was like, Okay, this is it's either like, it's decision making time. And I left my full time job first to focus fully on the business. And it just has grown since then. So we went into the pandemic with 16 cities and during the pandemic grew to 26 cities. So why other places were like, you know, really being maybe not expanding, we were able to, because we were kind of slower, we were able to focus more in on the business, we were able to really expand during that time.

Nick VinZant 14:38

So like if you had to put a number on it on average, you're doing like how many shoots a week a month or whatever

Joanna Tiger 14:45

I think we do between like 350 and 400 shoots a month.

Nick VinZant 14:49

Holy crap. I really thought you were gonna say like three to four a week. No, no, no, no like, oh, that's

Joanna Tiger 14:57

Yeah, but also across 26 cities. So some cities Yeah, some cities are busier than others, like our, some of our newer cities are growing and we're shooting, they're less because we're building. And some of our more established cities like Maryland, New York, Philadelphia, DC, those cities are just there, there are a lot of shoots happening.

Nick VinZant 15:18

So now when is somebody going to a suit studio go into people's houses? Like how does this work,

Joanna Tiger 15:23

we have a studio space in each location where we shoot so you come to us that way, we have control over the environment, and the lighting and all of those things. So each of our locations has a has a studio where you go and visit. And then within each studio, you will have a photographer who's either trained to be both a photographer and a stylist, or she knows both roles, or you have two individual people photographer, and then a separate stylist,

Nick VinZant 15:49

the thing that I would imagine is like the thing next to the big post bed, right, like, you know what I'm talking? Yes. Like, do other certain poses, people do? There are especially Yeah, I

Joanna Tiger 16:02

think like there are some core poses that are sort of staple that most people want to do. So yes, there are sort of, I would say core poses, but really, it's each shoot is tailored to the person coming in. So for us before they come in, they do a survey, they let us know their pronouns, they let us know what they're looking for out of the shoot, what they what they want, in the end, why are they coming in? Is it for a gift for someone else is it to celebrate something personal, you know, and then we're really working to sort of tailor the shoot to that. So women will say on there, I am. So nervous, I don't have any idea for poses, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm really leaning on you. And then other women will go, I have created a Pinterest board 50 poses that I have to have. And this is what I want to do on my shoot from from start to finish. And so we just we go, we were prepared for the ones that say I have no idea. And we're prepared for the ones who say, This is what I want exactly what I want. So

Nick VinZant 17:02

in the time that you've been doing it, would you say is it getting more popular than it was before about the same going down? Like what would you kind of see,

Joanna Tiger 17:10

it's more popular, especially with things like only fans and we have a whole new market of a women and content creators who are looking for a large pool of photographs to pull from for for their for their jobs for being content creators, and for their only fans and these sort of things. I think it's only growing.

Nick VinZant 17:34

But nobody's like using this for like their LinkedIn,

Joanna Tiger 17:36

you might be surprised, we can tell because it'll be a photograph cropped down to just like here. And the other thing we see them for is for dating profiles. So like I said, it doesn't have to be lingerie you can where it's not quite lifestyle photography, where you you know where it's very it's not lifestyle photography. It's not professional headshot photography, but you can use a portion of your shoot and like an off the shoulder sweater or a tank top or something that you can use as a profile picture on dating sites.

Nick VinZant 18:09

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question? I am. How sexual would you say that this is?

Joanna Tiger 18:17

It's not actually sexual. I would say like on a one to 10. It's like a zero or one. It is it is actually work posing is I mean, I can tell you from my Playboy shoots and from working with so many clients posing for these photos is the photo looks amazing and sexy. But the work that goes into it is work. Like after a shooting. You're a little sore. It's not really sexual. It's not sexually charged. It's more empowering. It's more you got this, you can do this. You are doing this. Look how amazing you are

Nick VinZant 18:52

area of the country that seems to embrace it the most area of the country that seems to embrace it the least like do you notice patterns across your different locations? Yes.

Joanna Tiger 19:00

I think our bigger cities like New York City right now is embracing boudoir. It is. That's it's one of our most popular cities. And that has been not a recent change. It's always been a busier city, but in recent months it is really picked up. And then we have tried to work in some smaller suburb cities, and those are a little more difficult. Yeah. So I think like are New York City or Philadelphia, Chicago, San Diego, these these locations, these bigger cities are really embracing it. I think the suburbs are a little bit harder.

Nick VinZant 19:39

Do you see any differences between like the one that I would think of right? It's like the Midwest or the south like the Bible Belt? Yeah. Do they? Are they like secretly against it or secretly all about it?

Joanna Tiger 19:49

I think. I wouldn't say there's there's there's much difference. It might be that they're secretly really into it. People don't know they're doing it. I don't know necessarily where the photos are going after who They're sharing them with their who's seeing them. But I think everyone wants. women everywhere want to feel confident, comfortable in their body in their skin. They want to have photos that they can look at and go, I mean, think about how many selfies you take on your phone, and you look through them. You know, people want to have nice photos of themselves that they enjoy looking at. I think that's universal,

Nick VinZant 20:21

most frequent request.

Joanna Tiger 20:23

There are specific poses I think every woman wants to do, and we name all of our poses. So we have a post called Baby. Just like I can't even do it for you. But it's a it's a pose everybody wants that's everyone asked for that. You'll see it on our Instagram. And I think most women the biggest request in their photos is just like I want to look good. I want to feel good. I want these photos to look amazing. That's we hear that all the time and also how nervous they are

Nick VinZant 20:58

most unusual request, like one that came in like I don't know about.

Joanna Tiger 21:06

Um, well, you know, unusual, I don't know, we've had some really fun props come into shoots. We had a woman once who brought a stack of post it notes and she kind of ghosted them all over the room. And the story there was that she had met her partner at work and they used to leave really flirty post it notes on each other's desk at work. So she incorporated posted notes into her shoot. Or we had a woman who was an avid scuba divers, she brought like scuba, like the fins and the flippers and the mask and the snorkel and wore that as part of her shoot. It was so fun, but very unusual. You don't know let me think of like boudoir photography and snorkels.

Nick VinZant 21:46

People are people that I could never imagine that like, oh, yeah, baby, here's my school.

Joanna Tiger 21:53

I know. But you know what, she loved it. And it was a big part of who she was. And she wanted to bring it into the photo. So, you know, it's still fun to be on that side of it, too. And hear all the stories behind what people are bringing and why they're bringing them they're really amazing.

Nick VinZant 22:08

Any Have you ever done shoots at specialty locations?

Joanna Tiger 22:12

Um, we have. We definitely have we had a woman once who she wanted to throw a party for her friends and do photos, each one having their own individual shoot, but she had a gorgeous farm with a big, beautiful barn, and all these fun settings. So we have done things outside of the studio. Not really, in recent days. It's mostly in the studio these days. Yeah. But we would love like, I love the idea of like, oh, let's go do a weekend shoot in the Bahamas. You know, let's have some a bunch of ladies calm and we'll do photos all weekend and hang out on the beach. That sounds amazing. I can just

Nick VinZant 22:51

still never imagine like a big group of guys do. Come on, Steve. Yeah.

Joanna Tiger 22:57

I don't know so much about the men's side of it. We're we're all female company and we work with female identifying or non binary individuals only are trans women. We don't work with male identifying individuals. So I can't really speak to that. But I know in our world there are photographers who are doing doodler photography or boudoir photography for men all the time.

Nick VinZant 23:20

Here's one of the more ironic ones. How often do you misspell boudoir

Joanna Tiger 23:24

all the freakin time? All the time. We started the business in 2009. And I just I don't know why we did that to ourselves. boudoir is it's hard to spell and it's so hard for other people to say we've heard every version of the word boudoir. I mean, every version of it.

Nick VinZant 23:43

It's tough. It's boud Oli all Hi yah. booter.

Joanna Tiger 23:49

I know we've heard it. Boo, boo boo. I mean, I can't even say some of the things we've we've heard. But you know, it's part of the charm, I guess.

Nick VinZant 23:58

Um, how much editing would you say you generally do to the pictures? Editing

Joanna Tiger 24:03

is by client. So we follow our clients late we have some clients who? Well first, all of our photos will get edited to remove distracting items like wall switches or outlets or to adjust color to white balance. That's standard on all images. But as far as image editing bodies are editing the client in the image, it's up to our client, they tell us how little or how much they want.

Nick VinZant 24:28

Do you see like, maybe you've seen some of this stuff? Maybe you haven't. I've only seen like various? Like, do you think that AI is going to play a role in this coming forward?

Joanna Tiger 24:36

I think so. I've seen some AI generated editing programs. My only hesitation with that is where are those, especially in this space? Where are those photos going? Once they're uploaded to be edited or worked on? Where are they after that? That I think for me that would be a big security issue, it's not something we would we're doing because who knows where the images are gonna go once they're in that space? But it is definitely we know photographers and regular photography who are using AI pet it.

Nick VinZant 25:12

What would you say to someone who wants to do this, but it's very nervous about it,

Joanna Tiger 25:16

I would say it is so normal to be nervous. I never tell someone, don't be nervous. There's no reason to be nervous. I'm, I'm a comedian, I get on stage, often and perform. i There's never a time that I don't walk out on stage where I'm not nervous. And I do it often, where I was a Playboy model, there was never a time that I went into a shoot where I wasn't like, here's the time they're gonna, they're gonna know I'm a fraud, they're gonna find out, I'm just a chemistry nerd. I don't know what I'm doing, and they're never going to want to shoot with me again. There was never a time I didn't feel like that. So it's okay. Just know that it's normal to be nervous. We're going to be right there by your side to like, help you breathe through those nerves. And you'll notice if five minutes into the shoot, they're gone. They're just gone. You're just you and you're taking photos with your two new best friends who are hyping you up and supporting you. So normal to be nervous, be nervous, it's okay.

Nick VinZant 26:14

How much do you charge? How much should I pay for this? And I think that they mean in that sense of like, right, like, what's, what's a price point that you would say like, oh, that's gonna be somebody who's capable, right? Like not getting this done by Jan, who's tried 20 bucks. Yeah,

Joanna Tiger 26:29

we talked about this often in our, in the business about, you know, showing up to Steve's house, and he has a disposable camera, but he only charged you 20 bucks, right. So, you know, it's a wide wide range for us, because we're so focused on giving this experience to as many individuals as we can. And our photo shoot is $55, which is crazy low in the in the scope of things. But you can expect to spend anywhere from like, where we are at 55 Up to three, four or 5000 depending on how long you shoot, how many images you have, what products you order. You know, some photographers charge by sets, how many different sets they use in your shoot, it's a huge range.

Nick VinZant 27:16

So where does the kind of in the business aspect of it like where's the money so to speak made is it made off the amount of time that the photographer is shooting in buying the pictures or the editing? Like where's Yeah,

Joanna Tiger 27:29

I think it's a it's a broad stroke. So some photographers will sell packages that are like three or 4000 and that includes your photo shoot your outfits, hair makeup, an album digital images, you know, might include a whole host of things. And then other photographers like us were on the lower side for the photo shoot experience. And then if you want to own images from that, I mean our package includes to edit in images so we want you to come in have the experience and we want you to have photos from it, no matter what. And then if you choose to add more that might be more more of the cost comes in you know, just it's a wide range.

Nick VinZant 28:05

That's honestly pretty much all the questions that I have is there anything that you think that we missed or?

Joanna Tiger 28:10

So no, I don't think so.

Nick VinZant 28:13

Where can people get a hold of you? Where can they find out more about the about the business, okay,

Joanna Tiger 28:17

our website is three boudoir. I'm gonna spell it BOUDO ir so you can find us at three boudoir.com Three boudoir on Instagram three boudoir on Facebook, people who are on Tik Tok, you can find us all those

Nick VinZant 28:34

places. Congratulations. It sounds like it's going well, right?

Joanna Tiger 28:37

It is. And I love my flippin job. Like if you had told me when I was in the lab, doing all this chemistry stuff, and then secretly being a Playboy model that my Playboy career was going to ensue. Like come into play much later in life and into everything that I do. I would have never believed you. And here it is. And I freaking love it.

Nick VinZant 28:58

Oh, I missed this one. Most most common outfit that people wear.

Joanna Tiger 29:04

Um, most common outfit. This Wow. I would say probably like matching bra and panty sets are most common. But I don't really even know if that's fair to say because man the outfits run the gamut. It's everything from we had a woman recently in full latex head to toe I mean, not that that's the most common but we do see latex and we see summer dresses and we see we see we see so much we see every everything you can imagine.

Nick VinZant 29:40

Do you see any differences in people if they're coming in for for their partner versus themselves?

Joanna Tiger 29:46

Um I think the people who are coming in at their partner's request may be the ones who are a little more nervous a little more like I'm only doing this for him or her? I don't know, oh, no what I'm doing, you know, maybe so but the fact that they're there, maybe there's, you know, a piece of him that wants to do the shoot to that just need a little extra love and support and encouragement. Yeah, but I think they're probably maybe a little more nervous.

Nick VinZant 30:17

I want to thank Joanna's so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on threads, Instagram, Tik Tok, and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description. The YouTube version of this interview will come out on August 3, at 4:30pm. Specific, I always say specific, it's so easy to say specific, instead of Pacific, but it's 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Could you ever see yourself getting intimate photos of yourself taken?

John Shull 30:59

No, actually, I don't. I don't know how I've made love before. I feel bad for the person on the opposite end.

Nick VinZant 31:08

I've never even I think a lot of people probably do.

John Shull 31:14

I mean, when I think about it, I'm like, man, you know, and I'm not really trying to be funny. I'm just like, you think about some relationships? I mean, there are some people who are champions because I you know, yeah, I'll just say that.

Nick VinZant 31:28

But have you ever had a relationship? Or do you think like me, you know what, I maybe didn't satisfy them?

John Shull 31:33

Ah, like, so when we say satisfied? You mean strictly one way, right?

Nick VinZant 31:40

Yeah, you didn't get the job done in the physical realm.

John Shull 31:43

I mean, there's been most I mean, there's been moments, I wouldn't say relationships, but there's been instances where you're like, Yeah, I didn't know I didn't do good. No job.

Nick VinZant 31:53

Yeah, I'm gonna say that there's definitely been moments. But I can probably bet maybe seven or eight out of 10. Especially once you've been like, I mean, I've been with the same woman for 10 years, right? Like, eventually you'd learn the combination to say,

John Shull 32:09

Listen, I need your opinion on something. Relationship related. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So my, my wedding anniversary is, so we record this on Mondays. My wedding anniversary is August the fifth. It's the upcoming Saturday. Okay. It also happens to be SummerSlam WWE SummerSlam. In Detroit. I bought tickets, I will be going to SummerSlam. However, a couple of weekends ago. My wife goes, you know, I know you were thinking about staying downtown Saturday. How about you stay downtown Friday and Saturday. And she booked me tonight and it was not cheap. But she booked me two nights on our wedding anniversary weekend. So I can go nerd out to SummerSlam. So is it a trap? Am I getting divorced? I don't know what to think right now.

Nick VinZant 33:03

Well, she's probably got another dude. She wants both nights, right? Because you're not getting the job done. So she wants she wants him to come over both nights.

John Shull 33:12

You know, at this at this point in my life, I don't even know if I would be that angry, man. Just

Nick VinZant 33:18

yeah, like how far into a relationship would you be okay, if like somebody else was coming over and getting the job done, but you got a free weekend. That's tough, man. That's, uh, you could do whatever you want. Right? Okay, you can do whatever you want with absolutely whatever you want for a week. But some other dude, or significant other or whatever you're interested in, is going to come over and take care of business. But you get your own week, how many years into the relationship before you're gonna be like, You know what, I'll take that deal.

John Shull 33:52

I mean, I joke, I'm not entirely sure I could ever do that. I'm kind of I don't know, I just can't picture that happening. I don't think my wife would ever do that. First off. And secondly, I feel like I'd be like, Yeah, do it, do it, honey. And then as soon as like someone showed up in the, in the driveway, start firebombing their car or something.

Nick VinZant 34:09

But you're not going to see this person hear about it whatsoever. I'm going to say 25 years, 25 years, I would start to consider it. I'd be like, You know what,

John Shull 34:21

man, that's tough. That is a good one.

Nick VinZant 34:25

And it's a special event. You get to go like the World Cup. Oh, God, you get to go to the Olympics. Something that only happens every once in a while.

John Shull 34:33

You're going to go do it. year seven.

Nick VinZant 34:35

You don't get any questions asked about what you were doing. While you were gone, though.

John Shull 34:40

Oh, I mean. Oh, you know, I'll say 2020 25 is about right. I mean, I feel like by then your kids are if you choose that children, kids are grown. And it's just you and your spouse or significant other.

Nick VinZant 34:53

Yeah, but the problem is by the time the kids are out of the house, you can probably go ahead and do that stuff. Anyway. You'd I don't think that I would ever accept that deal. But I would start to think about it around 25 years. Other people like me and they have completely open relationships. I don't know how somebody could do that. That to me, I could like, oh,

John Shull 35:15

yeah, yeah, like I said, I talk a big game, but I think if my wife was actually present me with that, like, Hey, I would like to get it on with somebody else. You know, while you're gone or whatever. I can't do it. I can do it.

Nick VinZant 35:30

What if he was a quarter of the man you are?

John Shull 35:34

No, I think I'd want him to be triple the man that I am. You'd rather have him be a bigger man than you. I mean, yeah, we listen if she's gonna do it, I mean, Maza would be worth her while

Nick VinZant 35:45

Oh, I'd go the completely opposite way I'd rather have I'd rather have my wife go behind my back with a man who was much smaller.

John Shull 35:53

No, I mean, fuck, I mean, have it be any any big time celebrity you can imagine the rock for all I care? Have it be him?

Nick VinZant 36:01

Would you rather have be a celebrity? Somebody you know, or just a random person?

John Shull 36:05

I feel like a celebrity would be more justifiable than just a Rando.

Nick VinZant 36:10

No, I wouldn't be pissed off about a celebrity. Because that would be like you threw this away for just this, like a thing that was never going to turn into anything?

John Shull 36:22

I do. There'll be a part of me though. That was a celebrity where I was like, okay, all right. I'm not good at Leonardo DiCaprio. wanted to have a fun night. Okay, sure. Whatever, I guess. But if,

Nick VinZant 36:33

okay, if you're like, maybe this is just my personality, but I would feel like at some point enough is enough, right? Like, man, I've had 72 Different burger restaurants, right? Like, I don't need a different burger every single night. You know what I mean? Like, wouldn't you by the age of like 40 or 50? Just be kind of? Oh, you know, I'm a little tired.

John Shull 36:58

I've always thought those numbers are complete lies. When you hear about Oh, yeah.

Nick VinZant 37:02

Like there's Wilt Chamberlain that would like he said 20,000. But they would average out to three people a day for 20 years. Like, that's not even possible.

John Shull 37:11

Or like Jack Nicholson, like, I mean, drugs and alcohol can only get you so many, you know, partners, for God's sakes. I mean, I guess for Leonardo list is good looking. But, but you

Nick VinZant 37:25

would have to just be like, I don't know how that situation. If I was completely alone in my house all the time, nonstop, every day. I couldn't, you know, browse the internet three or four times a day. So I don't know how that's even possible that that could that that would work out with people. Those numbers have to be like, I mean, I might give a fourth of it is probably the real truth.

John Shull 37:50

I mean, listen, you're so if you're a fourth of 20,000 you're still having still having a lot of fun in your life.

Nick VinZant 37:56

Yeah, but I don't know how your private parts haven't just fallen off at that point. Right? Like if you look at this statistics behind STDs, like it's pretty high up there. So if you're being in that many like you probably got a little bit of everything,

John Shull 38:09

especially back when he was doing it. I mean, back when things kind of ran around you didn't know a lot back then or weren't educated enough as a world All

Nick VinZant 38:17

right, but if he's got five inches 4.9 of that is straight disease.

John Shull 38:23

Just crab infested.

Nick VinZant 38:25

just nasty. Let's let's move on. Yeah.

John Shull 38:30

So last week, we had a great segue to shout outs are we gonna use this to go into shock shadows? Is that your question? Was that it?

Nick VinZant 38:37

I have known I don't know what your I really honestly don't even know what you talked about already. Forgot.

John Shull 38:41

All right, good, sir. some shout outs.

Nick VinZant 38:43

Is that your record player?

John Shull 38:46

It is Yes.

Nick VinZant 38:47

God you're a snob. Anyways, you are a suit that is the most old timey looking wooden record player that you could have possibly got. John, for people who maybe are not familiar, John is a snob John has a beer stomp. John has a music snob. John is a snob and if you can see his record player it looks like it was made in the 1820s I'm just not.

John Shull 39:13

First off two explanations one that is actually a pretty contemporary looking new record player. I wish I sure

Nick VinZant 39:21

it was I'm sure it was made new but you bought it purposely so it looked old.

John Shull 39:25

I mean, I bought it for the wood finish. Yes. Secondly, I don't have to drink 10 Busch lights anymore or you know do whatever I am five earned my place to be a beer snob. I can have one or two very nice craft beers and enjoy my evening. I do not have to prove myself anymore.

Nick VinZant 39:46

That I just want you to admit that you're not.

John Shull 39:50

I think I've said several times on here that I'm a beer snob. Yes.

Nick VinZant 39:54

Yeah, but you didn't know I'm not talking about just beer I'm talking about oh your taste you have snobby tastes as you're picking your nose

John Shull 40:03

hair up, they're trying to like do it like nada and they know discreetly, but he didn't call me out on it.

Nick VinZant 40:10

Dude, it's pretty easy to tell if somebody's picking your nose. There's no way to hide if you're picking your nose

John Shull 40:14

speaking of I told a group of people the other day that I would get my nose waxed

Nick VinZant 40:22

Okay, do it film it.

John Shull 40:24

I think I mean I would I we've talked once again on this podcast about how I don't grow hair. But I grow sometimes my nose hairs like curl around that middle part of your nose and like they can

Nick VinZant 40:35

Oh, little crabs gusting well just tidy it up. I don't know why you would get that wax. That's one of the easiest things to tidy up. It's got a nose trimmer.

John Shull 40:45

I'm gonna get a nose job and a wax.

Nick VinZant 40:47

Surprise You don't have like a special nose barbershop that you go to in this case. I just say you have snobby taste. It's all I want to hear. I don't have snobby tastes, you have a wooden record player behind you.

John Shull 41:01

It's actually one of the cheapest ones you can buy and it's pretty contemporary

Nick VinZant 41:05

snobs. No, no person who isn't a snob would use the word contemporary.

John Shull 41:09

Anyways, I'm sorry that I use words that you don't recognize. All right, can we get back to shout outs that are not STD affiliated? Julio Smith, Hannah Salamanca, Rachel Baker, Victoria, Antoinette. Caitlin Mollard. Lance Gomez. Chelsea rose. A lot of a lot of the female interest this week that's sure did a lot but this podcast I'm sure, as we talked about STD

Nick VinZant 41:41

actually have about most that half of our audience is women.

John Shull 41:44

It's probably because we're so good looking. Kenny Alvarez Nolan Robinson

Nick VinZant 41:50

horn because we're of non threatening androgynous looking males, right like these guys ain't gotta worry about them for shit. And Tyrone

John Shull 41:57

Anderson finally got through my shout outs but there they are. Alright, so let's let's get to a little bit of Profoundly Pointless factor fiction. No, okay. Boo Boo Boo papa, papa, papa. All right. So let's see. So, if you haven't tuned in yet, I basically asked Nick for things and he's done. You done pretty well, actually. Differentiating what's fact and what isn't? One time you even were wrong, and you still took it to the masses. And you, you and your cult followers still thought you were right, which you weren't. But regardless, we'll start off with this one here. Let's see. cracking your knuckles will give you arthritis. No. That is actually

Nick VinZant 42:49

true. No, it's not.

John Shull 42:51

No it's not. You're right. Absolutely. Right. So really cracking your your Oh boy. Let me get back and focus here. Actually, hold on.

Nick VinZant 42:59

Can be a while.

John Shull 43:01

What is wrong with this thing? Is your heads

Nick VinZant 43:03

bright red and the camera doesn't know where to focus

John Shull 43:06

anyways. Yes, cracking your knuckles does not give you arthritis actually really has nothing to do with your joints in general. All right, let's let's go to another one here. Ah, dueling is legal in Paraguay.

Nick VinZant 43:26

I know it's legal. Some places I have no idea about the interim. How would I know if it's legal in Paraguay?

John Shull 43:33

You just have to answer the question, Nicholas.

Nick VinZant 43:36

Yes.

John Shull 43:37

Wow, fantastic. According to this article that was put on CNN, but 10 years ago, it's only legal However, both parties are registered blood and organ donors.

Nick VinZant 43:51

Oh, that's a good idea for them. As you imagine, like going through all that, it's like, all right, it's time to duel. Well wasn't, I know you gotta be. I've got no problem with that. If two people wanted to fight it out to the death and have a duel, I got no problem with that. I got no problem with that. I don't generally have a problem with people getting in a fight with each other. Like I would never be like, if two guys were having an argument and then got into a fight. And it was just over like something benign, right? Like not something illegal had transpired before that but if two guys just got in a fight I'm not calling the cops. Like I'm just gonna watch it. I just wonder like, what are their fighting? So like,

John Shull 44:37

when I see this I wonder like, what are they doing with like, are they use a nine millimeters are they using revolvers? Samurai swords?

Nick VinZant 44:45

If you are going to have a duel? How would you do it?

John Shull 44:49

I would go with love with a like a bullet like a gun I would not want to get I don't. I will show up to a gunfight. I do not want to walk into a sword fight.

Nick VinZant 45:01

I would do it where they gotta be like old timey pistols.

John Shull 45:05

I mean, you're gonna need a pretty big bullet to get through my carcass. Yes.

Nick VinZant 45:09

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's mostly soft.

John Shull 45:12

You kid me. Alright, next one here.

Nick VinZant 45:16

I got no problem. What do I got no problem with dueling. I think there's like if it was legal in Washington where I live and I was watching, I would actually go and watch it. Like if they had the dueling grounds because the dueling was legal. Like the biggest spectator sport in the world.

John Shull 45:33

So for some reason, this one was actually provided to me. While I was talking to the podcast, a couple of friends. And I didn't know this was true or not. So I'm curious to see what you say. But your stomach can dissolve. razorblades true or false? Oh, you got

Nick VinZant 45:49

like acid some of the strongest acid in the world is in your stomach, man, I would say yes.

John Shull 45:54

Three for three. Ding ding dang.

Nick VinZant 45:56

Yeah, your stomach acid. I don't remember what the scale is. But there's like the pH scale. And your stomach is like a two. It's like one of the highest acids around.

John Shull 46:05

It's yeah, it's quite incredible. Which makes you think No wonder the acid is so strong because all the chicken wings I

Nick VinZant 46:14

guess you got to be able to burn through man.

John Shull 46:18

All right, last one here. Walt Disney's body is cryogenically frozen.

Nick VinZant 46:23

I don't think that that's true.

John Shull 46:25

That is not true. It is a myth. That has been proven to not be true. Multiple times. But apparently, if anyone was wondering, he's been cremated and his physical body is long gone.

Nick VinZant 46:41

What do you want to be cremated? Yes. Just straight up cremated? Or do you want to be like planted as a tree?

John Shull 46:48

I mean, as of this point in my life, I'm fine with just being cremated. I think it's Wales way cheaper. It's less of a hassle on your family. You know, I just, I don't know. I don't really why would I my thought on it is why would I want to be put into a box, but into the earth? We're all going to decompose anyways. Or get eaten by things that eat through the box.

Nick VinZant 47:12

I mean, otherwise, you're just going to be turned into an urn and put on somebody's counter.

John Shull 47:16

I mean, maybe Big Lebowski me, just throw me into Danny's face on a cliff somewhere.

Nick VinZant 47:23

I would I for some reason, like I could be turned into like a bush. Like, like a blueberry bush. Like something that produces fruit, like I'm mixing me in with a bush or something.

John Shull 47:34

I mean, that would be kind of cool, I suppose. But knowing me like I will get taken out by a hurricane or something. Well, there it goes. Jones.

Nick VinZant 47:43

Thank you. But do you have any relatives that you go and visit their grave site?

John Shull 47:51

No,

Nick VinZant 47:53

I don't either. I would maybe I would if I lived in my hometown. But otherwise, no, I don't have anybody that I would go and visit.

John Shull 48:03

Yeah, I don't I don't know. I mean, a lot of my family is buried in Kentucky. So I wanted to go to visit them. I have to drive 10 hours but no, I don't even think I would if I lived there to be honest. Sorry, family.

Nick VinZant 48:17

I'm always surprised that you have family in Kentucky. Kentucky.

John Shull 48:20

Does that surprise you look at me. Seemed like more of a northern person. Oh, thank you with my red face. Yeah, like

Nick VinZant 48:27

you're allergic to the

John Shull 48:28

sun. Well, that is true.

Nick VinZant 48:29

Because you're too busy. Staying inside in your basement listening to your fancy records. That is

John Shull 48:34

not true, actually. All right. Are we ready for the? Oh, okay.

Nick VinZant 48:38

Okay. Okay. He's on it. It's, it's time off. The Outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again, candle of the month. I still can't do a horse every once in a while. I'd like

John Shull 48:56

your system shakes when you do it.

Nick VinZant 49:00

That sounds like a horse. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah, it's not bad.

John Shull 49:05

All right. Well, I was waiting for you to finish. So this was supposed to be a joke. First off, that I that I got about a year ago from a friend a co worker actually, who knew that I liked candles. So we'll start off with a with a with a company. It's called the magic Candle Company. I believe they are online only. But they specialize in kind of different scents since you don't you wouldn't expect so though I have three other scents I picked out and I let them all in the month of July on purpose. I'm going to go with Tiki Terez as my candle of the month by magic Candle Company it magically transport you to

Nick VinZant 49:52

ensure it's not Tiki terrorists

John Shull 49:54

could be terrorists could be terrorists. I was you know that's one of those words. You don't know if it's tariffs today. As

Nick VinZant 50:00

war is spelled, you could look it up.

John Shull 50:03

It's terrorist, our AC II to race to race that it would give a little little substance to the to the candle, but

Nick VinZant 50:15

Tiki, hey, tell us about the can or what's the smell? How's the burn time?

John Shull 50:20

I want everyone else want everyone to just take a second here. Close your eyes we're going to transport a magical place. With hot Polynesian men holding Tiki things. And it smells like burnt ashes in ocean in suntan lotion. And it's fantastic. I know it's an all in all serious. It's one of those candles that I've been waiting, like I had to go deep into the back shelf. And I was like, You know what? These look fun. I'll try them. And this one was, it was good. I don't know how else to explain it. It's pretty quick. Like they're not very big candles. It was like a 10 hour burn. But I did let it burn all the way through. It's only one wick a woodwick. Which creates a natural cracking sound. But yeah, they're good. I mean, it's it was refreshing. Put it on and a couple of beers, watch TV show. Good. Good,

Nick VinZant 51:18

then I don't think of I can't imagine a lot of woodwick candles, would we

John Shull 51:23

would wick? Well, you know, they're starting to come around a lot of the small independents, candle makers use them. They provide a little more natural feel sound. But yeah, check about magic Candle Company. They have plenty of different scents, but to Tiki terrace is the one that I recommend. You know I got the large or my burns. I think the large candle which is probably 20 bucks or so. went pretty fast. So might want to grab a few if you're going over there.

Nick VinZant 51:55

Can you I'm not familiar with the sounds of different wicks. Could you give us an example of what the woodwick sounds like?

John Shull 52:03

Oh, I mean, I don't know if I could do it justice. But it's like

Nick VinZant 52:09

oh, don't stop. I mean, you asked for it. I didn't realize it was one of the worst sounds imaginable.

John Shull 52:16

I mean, I don't know it's it's hard to recreate but think of think of being by a fire and you hear the crackles of the wood with the there's like a hidden there's a lot of cracking like

Nick VinZant 52:31

oh yeah, that's not like because the sound that you were making sounds like what it sounds like when somebody dips something in ranch and eats it. Like oh, that's just disgusting sounding like That's great. Oh, I hate that sound.

John Shull 52:44

Anyways, Tiki terrace magic Candle Company. Check them out. I actually don't know a lot about them other than I got a couple candles, maybe as a gag gift. But they ended up turning out to be fantastic. Fantastic. So

Nick VinZant 52:58

how jealous were you of the fact that I walked past a candle making studio the other day?

John Shull 53:06

I would love it. Actually, if we could ever take this podcast to where I could just do candles. That would be a dream. Come on, but you know what? We should get candles with you in mind

Nick VinZant 53:18

with you and me on them. This in our faces face scandal?

John Shull 53:22

Yeah, Profoundly Pointless. Like you know, we're gonna have the autographs on it. Maybe you me your mind even my

Nick VinZant 53:28

face and our pictures on the candle? Yeah. Do they make candles like gigs where you could get your face as a candle?

John Shull 53:33

Oh, yeah. Go on Pinterest at sea. I mean, there's all kinds of companies I actually was just gifted. And I thought about making this the candle the month but it wouldn't make any sense. Really, but a Pinterest and my wife had like a custom candle made. And it's the rock for SummerSlam because my wife is the best.

Nick VinZant 53:53

God Yeah, well. Man's Yeah, she definitely wants you to leave for the weekend. Oh, yeah. Have a real man come in. I mean, she's gonna have a go Friday and Saturday, actually, maybe even Thursday. You know what, Thursday through Monday? Just go ahead. And I mean, your time?

John Shull 54:12

Aren't you flying in? Aren't you coming in?

Nick VinZant 54:15

I would like that's one of those events. Now. If it was Wrestlemania. I would like that's one of those events that like, oh, I would like to attend that I don't even care about going in. But I would like to attend for the atmosphere. Like the Super Bowl, or the five finals or the World Cup or the WrestleMania. Like something that you'd like, Oh, I bet that's a pretty cool atmosphere. I can care less about the event, but the atmosphere.

John Shull 54:35

I mean, that's it right? I mean, that's Yeah. Being there around all of our people. And I you know, and by our people, I mean, nerds wrestling nerds. I'm in it. I'm in it to win it completely.

Nick VinZant 54:50

Well represent us right now. Just proud. Are you ready? Are you ready for us? Are you ready?

Unknown Speaker 54:55

Yes, I am.

Nick VinZant 54:56

Yeah. All right. So our top five is top five John's What's your number five.

John Shull 55:03

So I am one through five, just John Shaw. Just one through five. Now I'm kidding. So this was actually a lot harder than I thought it was.

Nick VinZant 55:11

There's a big difference between modern John's and the historical John's I think that John is one of the names that has been declining over time. Most but I only put in John's that were influential in my lifetime.

John Shull 55:26

Okay, I'm similar, I suppose. My number five is Jon Stewart. Okay. Yeah, I mean,

Nick VinZant 55:37

I don't have an issue with that

John Shull 55:39

talk show host for years and now he's becoming an advocate for many, you know, actually important things so you know, he Yeah, I might seem a week number five. But when you think about it, he deserves at least at least a place somewhere near the top five John's.

Nick VinZant 55:57

My number five is John Cena. I think that he is somebody who not as influential as a lot of other John's, but he did some things that were kind of cultural iconic moments, right? Like, you can't see me. So many people still like that was a big deal. He was he's a pretty famous person. He's a pretty famous John.

John Shull 56:20

He is. I don't think he deserves to be on the list. But, um, my number four is a tie because I couldn't decide which musician to put on. So I'm gonna put them both at at number four. And that's going to be John Lennon. Can you guess the

Nick VinZant 56:38

the other John? Probably my number four of John Denver? No,

John Shull 56:42

Johnny Cash is my number.

Nick VinZant 56:45

Oh, my number four is John Denver. I think that John Denver is probably a more influential person than Johnny Cash. Maybe not as good of a musician. I don't know enough about music. But I think that more people know John Denver is and Johnny Cash.

John Shull 57:00

I would say for all three of those individuals. Maybe Maybe Maybe John Lennon nine not included, but it's really like a genre thing. Right? Like any one country bluesy. Maybe rocky knows Johnny Cash. John Denver, top folk rock, but it's contrary. Yeah, but I mean, he was more of a folk. You know, I mean, I don't know. It's hard to say they're both icons. They both deserve to be on the list. John Lennon is just I mean, he's just, he'll be remembered forever as maybe the best John musician ever.

Nick VinZant 57:34

See, but he's one of the ones that like, I know that he's famous. But I don't know what he actually supposedly did besides being a member of The Beatles. I mean, I don't know if he wrote a lot of the songs. Or I know that he was kind of famous social, like socially famous as well. But the thing with Johnny Cash is like, I know Johnny Cash, his name and his look far more than I actually I don't actually couldn't name them. I couldn't actually, if you were to give me a quiz between Is this a Willie Nelson song or a Johnny Cash song? I don't think I would know. I'm not sure if I know any Johnny Cash songs.

John Shull 58:11

Well, that's absurd. And to save you from getting ridicule. Yes, John Lennon probably more more famous as a songwriter than an actual musician. But I only say that just because he was an amazing songwriter. Obviously, the Beatles broke out, you know, imagine is one of the greatest songs ever. That's why it's withstood the test of time. And then obviously, he wasn't social

Nick VinZant 58:34

way that he did that. I didn't realize I was him. And the the way that he

John Shull 58:37

was killed was you know, obviously, just another segment of his legacy.

Nick VinZant 58:44

Okay, which number three?

John Shull 58:45

This one is a complete Homer pick. But I'm putting it out there anyways. and my Number three is John Candy.

Nick VinZant 58:52

Oh, okay. Not not

John Shull 58:55

that well known? Probably internationally. Definitely. Not today, I'm sure. But man, when he was at the top of his game, you know, back in the late 80s, early 90s. He was definitely an actor that, you know, you could probably go to 2030 countries around the world and they would know who he was.

Nick VinZant 59:11

He was that I actually have John Candy is my number two. I think he he's one of those actors along the lines of Tom Hanks, Robin Williams. That's just universally beloved. I mean, nobody's got to complain about John Candy.

John Shull 59:27

You can't say that he was the most healthiest of humans. But he was apparently a great a great person.

Nick VinZant 59:34

Yeah, yeah. I don't think that there's a lot of actors that you can kind of point to the downside of them that they were jerks, or that they were this or that they were that but John Candy seemed to be universally beloved. Um,

John Shull 59:47

so what's your number three?

Nick VinZant 59:48

My number three is going to have to be I think Johnny Depp. I don't really I'm not a huge fan, but I think that you have to acknowledge that he's pretty famous.

John Shull 59:58

Yeah, I mean, he's, I mean, how many major franchises has he been been a part of other than, you know, obviously pirates. My thing with him is, he's like Nicolas Cage to me. Like, he's, I mean, he's gonna go down as good. He's gonna go down as one of the greatest ever, but it's at the same point. It's like he had such an up and down career if he didn't get that Disney partnership like Nicolas Cage did with the last treasure movies or whatever they're called last treasure. Treasure and I know a lot of people out there especially some my friends are gonna be rolling their eyes right now and saying that depth and Nicolas Cage his best stuff was in the 90s before he went mainstream. That's not my point. My point is would he be remembered? If he didn't get that Disney contract to do the series of pirates movies?

Nick VinZant 1:00:47

I see what you're saying. That's kind of a hard question. Right? Like would that definitely launched him to another level higher than Nicolas Cage? Like people knew who he was? Nicolas Cage is not when the greatest actress of generation right like come on now. That's ridiculous. No, definitely no Johnny Depp's a little bit more famous. Lose. So later we then at you're reaching number one.

John Shull 1:01:09

Now, where am I number two? Oh, okay. Okay, which is Johnny Carson.

Nick VinZant 1:01:14

Well, you can make an argument, he kind of started that whole late night thing, but it was before my time. Well, that's

John Shull 1:01:19

but and yes, once again, we sound like old comergence I know. Probably a lot of the younger generation that listens is gonna go. Who was that? But he was like the founding father of late night television. I mean, you anybody from 1980 on? Yeah, he was. Yeah, I mean, Gi. So I had to put him somewhere. And I you know, I feel number two was was a good spot for him.

Nick VinZant 1:01:45

Yeah. John and I are both childs of the 80s. Right. So Johnny Carson was still probably doing it when we were I remember if I was to think of that show, I kind of remember Jay Leno's run more than Johnny Carson. It was like Jay Leno's when?

John Shull 1:02:01

Yeah, so I'm growing up. I'm looking it up right now. So he was. So he did.

Nick VinZant 1:02:07

I bet he did it till 92.

John Shull 1:02:10

Ah, hold on one second here.

Nick VinZant 1:02:13

I'm actually interested. Like what his run was?

John Shull 1:02:18

I know if I was good at this, I'd be able to find it.

Nick VinZant 1:02:22

Do you know how to search on the internet? Yeah, I

John Shull 1:02:24

tried to search the internet. So it was October 1 of 1962. To may 22. of 1992. So

Nick VinZant 1:02:33

Oh, are yours? I was right. I said 92.

John Shull 1:02:38

Yeah. And then and then. And then I think Leno took over probably shortly thereafter, if not immediately, and the Leno did it until what? Their mid 2000s 2000 10s.

Nick VinZant 1:02:50

Yeah, I never liked the guy who's doing it. Now. I'm not even mentioned his name, but it's pandering and it's like he doesn't even get a mention doesn't get mentioned. Here's your number one. Oh, ah, you can't say John Cena.

John Shull 1:03:04

No, it is not John Cena stupid. I am just gonna say John Madden.

Nick VinZant 1:03:12

He's not number one man. But I mean, he's pretty influential in that field,

John Shull 1:03:17

but multiple fields from a football coach and football, to being a spokesperson for some of the most catchiest products telefax internet boom to a video game franchise. But not just boys. But I mean, girls, too. I mean, Madden, from what 1997 Until today, it's still I mean, I don't know the numbers, but has to be one of the highest selling sports franchises ever. And he hasn't been involved with it probably since the late 1990s. I

Nick VinZant 1:03:50

mean, he is dead.

John Shull 1:03:54

Yes, he is dead now. But yeah, I don't know. I just, it just made sense made sense to me.

Nick VinZant 1:04:02

I, I can buy this argument that for our generation and younger, he might be the most influential John. In some ways. Everybody doesn't know who he is. My number one is kind of along those lines. And I think that not only is he the number one John, but he is the singular talent on this list is John Williams, the composer who did Star Wars, Harry Potter, et all those things. I think John Williams is the number one John of our lifetime.

John Shull 1:04:39

I mean, John Williams is he's yes, if you're gonna go deep. That's a deep dive.

Nick VinZant 1:04:43

That's a deep dive pick, but I think he's a number one John.

John Shull 1:04:49

He's definitely an honorable mention if and maybe educated folks, folks who like research John's would say him, but just as Like regular commonplace John's now he wouldn't be you know, he's a behind the scenes guy No one knows not

Nick VinZant 1:05:05

have assigned to that he's that behind the scenes guy that was so singularly talented that he was elevated to common knowledge like people know who John Williams is they know that music. Do you want me to do the list Star Wars Harry Potter Jurassic Park, ET, like he has scored some of the biggest films ever. And made those films in some ways.

John Shull 1:05:28

I am not saying that he should not be on the list. I'm just saying, if we're going in terms of you know, if you're basing your list a little bit about popularity and knowing the person, then he wouldn't be on the list if you're going cultural. You know, cultural importance. Yes, by far.

Nick VinZant 1:05:47

I think a lot of more people know who John Williams is and you get credit for

John Shull 1:05:51

i I'm probably wrong, usually

Nick VinZant 1:05:54

who's your who's in your honorable mention.

John Shull 1:05:58

So I got John Travolta didn't really want to put them on there. But I feel like he felt the

Nick VinZant 1:06:03

same way about John Travolta but not really. in our lifetimes. He hasn't really been in that many percents Pulp Fiction. He hasn't really been in that many big movies in our lifetime.

John Shull 1:06:13

Do you have John Wayne John Denver? I put Jon Bon Jovi Amana music kick. John Fabbro or Fabbro Bevo. Yeah, and then I have John Goodman, but

Nick VinZant 1:06:28

I could see John Goodman, but I don't think that John Barrow that maybe? The problem is, is that he shifted a little bit more behind the scenes.

John Shull 1:06:40

I mean, your number one was a guy who's done nothing but be behind the scenes. Yeah, but

Nick VinZant 1:06:44

he was so good at it that he broke out. I don't think John fabro has done that yet. Um, I wanted to put Elton John on there. I don't know if that count quite counts though. He is it John in a way?

John Shull 1:06:57

No, it doesn't count. Um,

Nick VinZant 1:07:02

pretty much nobody else I mean, I think the historical John's if he went with it, the people that like had influences before our lifetimes. John F. Kennedy.

John Shull 1:07:12

You Herbie Hancock, who, John Hancock, you know, you know the joke out of Tommy Boy, Herbie Hancock, no. Okay.

Nick VinZant 1:07:22

That's the worst Intel joke that nobody gets.

John Shull 1:07:26

is the worst,

Nick VinZant 1:07:27

John Hancock though, but I would say John F. Kennedy is probably, if you polled people, maybe who are in their 50s and older he would be number one.

John Shull 1:07:37

He'd be up there for sure. Definitely.

Nick VinZant 1:07:39

John Wayne would too. I haven't rant about John Wayne, do you hear my John Wayne ran? Sure. I have always been fascinated that he became like the epitope of American manliness, patriotism. And all those kinds of things like he became the epitone of manliness serving your country. But he didn't actually fight in the war. He became famous for making movies about a war that he didn't fight it.

John Shull 1:08:06

I mean, because he was that good of an actor. I guess. There were plenty of World War Two actors that actually went into the war and came out and were superstars. I see. I wouldn't say John Wayne was wasn't like a, you know, I don't know, whatever is defined manliness.

Nick VinZant 1:08:23

He was famous though, for being like the American man. And he didn't fight in the war where so many other people I just find that fascinating that he's held up as this virtue of like, man, but yet he didn't go fight in the war when everybody else did.

John Shull 1:08:38

Who is the the epitope as you said, multiple times already, of American manliness to you now.

Nick VinZant 1:08:50

Like a man's man, a man's man. I don't think anybody I don't think that there's anybody that you would point to now and say like that's, that's the epitone of American manliness, a man's man across all thing.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:04

I would agree with you.

Nick VinZant 1:09:06

Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know who you think are some of the best John's. I really think that if you did this list over the last 100 or 200 years, the list is completely different. But John's have kind of fallen off in the last couple of decades. I don't think that we have as strong of John's right now, as we did in the past. Except for John Candy. I mean, John Candy is fantastic.

Spearfisher Lauren Sarasua

Lauren Sarasua is 90 feet below the surface. She’s been holding her breath for nearly two minutes and is struggling with a 100 plus pound fish. This is Spearfishing. We talk spearfishing basics, pretending to be a fish and the joy of eating what you catch. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things You See in the Sky.

Lauren Sarasua: 01:11

Pointless: 29:04

Top 5: 53:19

Contact the Show

Lauren Sarasua YouTube

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Interview with Spearfisher Lauren Sarasua

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode spearfishing, and in the sky,

Lauren Sarasua 0:21

I was completely enamored, I was like, what is that? Like, I didn't even know that it was possible, they can get down pretty quickly. And once you pass a certain depth, then you just you just sink. So you you can't fight a tuna. It. It's just it you'll drown.

Nick VinZant 0:41

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. If you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest specializes in a unique and growing aspect of phishing. This is spear Fisher, Lauren Surah Surah. So what is spear phishing?

Lauren Sarasua 1:12

Pretty self explanatory except for the fact that a lot of people there are different types like you can spear off of a boat, but with the one that I do is freedive spearfishing where you hold your breath and dive underwater to hunt for fish, and seafood.

Nick VinZant 1:30

So how did you get into that? Right? Like that doesn't seem like the first avenue that people would do if they go into fishing. How did you get in? How did you get into it?

Lauren Sarasua 1:38

Yeah, so I took a scuba course. And then I saw a free diver during that scuba course. And I was completely enamored. I was like what is that? Like? I didn't even know that it was possible. So I started researching freediving and through that research I found spearfishing I was like this looks absolutely insane. I need to try it.

Nick VinZant 2:05

So what are you do it like right like if you're going down to go spearfishing, like what are you doing? How did walk me through this a little bit?

Lauren Sarasua 2:13

Basically, it depends on what kind of hunt you're doing. There's a couple of different varieties. One is called a sweater, which is you dive down and you just wait at the bottom and you try to get fish to come to you. And then there's another one, it's you basically like creeping over, they are reef, like you're actively moving looking for fish. It's really complicated. But to dumb it down, you just have to be in control of your body so that you've looked like you belong there. And you don't scare away

Nick VinZant 2:53

all the fish. You have to kind of look like a fish.

Lauren Sarasua 2:57

Yeah. 100%

Nick VinZant 2:59

How do you look like a fish? Right? Like I would, there are

Lauren Sarasua 3:02

behaviors that you can mimic that make fish comfortable around you even though you're much larger than them and, and they could perceive you as being a predator.

Nick VinZant 3:14

So like what behaviors would you mimic in that regard? I'm fascinated by this. Like I never thought of like trying to imitate a fish essentially.

Lauren Sarasua 3:23

So basically, what you have to do is just be super chill, like look like a little turtle groovin you know, if the weeds are swaying, you just sway with the fans and everything that's going on there. You know if there's any swell, so it's just looking at a calm fish or calm shark, anything that's calm and just mimic that. Like don't be kicking around. Don't No, no fast movements, everything very smooth, very chill.

Nick VinZant 4:00

You essentially have to blend in with the environment. 100% So is it fishing or is it hunting?

Lauren Sarasua 4:07

With hunting definitely hunting. There's different techniques to call fish to come closer to the attract fish. I mean, with different fish, you have to use different techniques. Some you have to hide behind a coral. Others you can just, you know dive bomb them. So it's really dependent on the fish behavior itself and the species as like what technique you're going to use

Nick VinZant 4:35

when you call a fish. Or you call a fish. Like I think of like turkey calls or duck calls. Right is how do you

Lauren Sarasua 4:43

Yeah, basically. But there's, there's one that they call it a super grant. They just like with your throat you just go like that. That also helps to deter sharp.

Nick VinZant 4:58

Yeah, it seems much much more active than I would think like traditional kind of fishing is?

Lauren Sarasua 5:03

Oh, 100%. Yeah, definitely. Much more active.

Nick VinZant 5:08

Now, for people who do it right, did they fish as well? Or it's like, no, no, no, I'm a spear Fisher and

Lauren Sarasua 5:14

surely some of the best spear fishermen are, are really great fishermen, because they, they understand fish they understand, you know, there's a lot of overlapping factors in that because they know where the fish are going to get to be, you know, they know how they behave, what their diet is, what their behaviors are. So it's, it's actually really helpful to be a good angler.

Nick VinZant 5:45

For you, what's kind of the main draw of it, what really hooked you on it?

Lauren Sarasua 5:50

The food? Definitely the food. I Love Lucy, and raw fish, and I just, you know, there's no better way to get it and getting it yourself the fresh if you know exactly where it's been not wrapped in plastic, and then you and you get that satisfaction of just hunting something yourself.

Nick VinZant 6:12

I wouldn't you know, that's not something that a lot of people really do.

Lauren Sarasua 6:16

Does it scary to be in war? Like? I think a lot of people? Well, first, a lot of people are like really disconnected from the food source. They don't want to see eyes and face on what they're eating. So I think that turns off a lot of people. And then I think, you know, the fact that you're putting yourself back into the food chain, you're the biggest creditor, there is also something that probably deters a lot of people because it's scary.

Nick VinZant 6:49

So when you go down there, like where are you generally doing this app?

Lauren Sarasua 6:53

Now, it depends what what you're going after, you know, you, you can hunt pelagics, which are the type of fish that they travel a lot. So you'll see the same fish here in Miami, in Ecuador, like they they really travel around, which is to note as well. But then there's those reef fish such as snappers, groupers that tend to stick around the same area. So really depends on what you're hunting pelagics or more blue water, where you're just basically waiting for something to come in. And reef hunting is more like you have to actively be looking in crevices and, you know, doing your

Nick VinZant 7:48

your different techniques is one considered to be kind of harder than the other.

Lauren Sarasua 7:53

I would say biologics spearfishing is probably a little bit harder, just because it's usually bigger fish. So you need, you know, you need more skill. And also with that, like with pelagics, you don't have any frame of reference of how far they are from you. Because there's, you know, there's nothing behind them. It's just blue waters with a blue wall. So it's hard to know how far they are. So a lot of people will shoot at them, but realize that they're actually too far. And their spear isn't even reaching it.

Nick VinZant 8:33

How far does it go? Like how far how close does the fish need to be to you?

Lauren Sarasua 8:38

It depends on the gun. And it depends on your personal strength. Like for me, I always use 214 millimeter bands on my gun. When most let's say men use typically 260 millimeter bands. So that's a thicker band. So the stretch causes it to be more powerful.

Nick VinZant 9:04

Yeah. can go farther. Yeah, yeah,

Lauren Sarasua 9:07

exactly. Like some of my friends load my gun, and they're like, What is they load it with one one swoop, two bands. And it's just, it depends on your strength. So my spear guns, my spear won't go as far as your typical beer gun that you'll get off the shelf, if I need to adjust it.

Nick VinZant 9:29

Even years though, like if you were to look like yours, the fish needs to be are we talking like two feet like 20 feet? Like how far away? Are they usually going to be?

Lauren Sarasua 9:39

I would say most of the fish. I'm trying to look around for pointer Robins. I'd say most of the fish that I shoot are around 10 feet away.

Nick VinZant 9:47

That seems fairly close, but it also probably seems fairly far away at the same time. Is that closer or farther away than somebody might initially think that it is once you get down there?

Lauren Sarasua 10:00

that's much closer.

Nick VinZant 10:02

It's pretty close. Yeah, that's

Lauren Sarasua 10:03

really close.

Nick VinZant 10:04

So then have you had some more dangerous encounters with some of the fish or other animals that are down there?

Lauren Sarasua 10:12

Not so much with fish. But well, you have to be careful when shooting like Bill fish, like Marlins, I shot went out in Ecuador, and they made it very, very apparent that I have to be super careful not to shoot it. If it's facing me. They could impel you.

Nick VinZant 10:32

Yeah, I can see that right. Yeah, I got it. Oh, well, it got you. And got you probably worse. So then you don't I would imagine, because if since if you're, you're essentially holding your breath like that, how long do you have to be down there holding your breath to do this?

Lauren Sarasua 10:49

You know, if I'm diving on a reef that's at 92 feet, then my breath work has to be longer than if I'm, you know, hunting with, say, for a wahoo, which is a pelagic. That it it tends to stay a little shallower.

Nick VinZant 11:06

On average, like how far down would you say you're usually hunting them?

Lauren Sarasua 11:11

I would say from 40 to 90 something feet.

Nick VinZant 11:18

I really thought you were gonna say like five to seven feet. I didn't realize you're that far down.

Lauren Sarasua 11:24

Yeah, no, we go deep.

Nick VinZant 11:27

Then how long does it did it take you to kind of build up to the level where you could really do it.

Lauren Sarasua 11:32

I was lucky and progress pretty quickly. But I think it took me about a year to dive 200 feet. And then to be comfortable there. Maybe took me a couple months after that.

Nick VinZant 11:48

So if you're diving down to like, let's say 60 feet, like you'll, how long will you be underwater for the whole thing by the time you swim down there? Wait, shoot, come back up all that stuff.

Lauren Sarasua 12:01

Let's say on a normal dive, where it's, you know, you're really pushing yourself. And you're just you just want an easy dive? Well, a minute 30. If you want to stay longer, like then the little over two minutes. But I tend to try to, you know, keep some room for error just in case anything happens. And I need I need some extra air to get out of a sketchy situation.

Nick VinZant 12:31

of let's say that. Okay, so let's say it's two minutes, right? Like how much of that is actually spent during the hunt. And how much of it is just like, all right down the simple process of getting down and getting up.

Lauren Sarasua 12:43

Getting down, they say, you usually move at about I think it was three feet per second. They can get down pretty quickly. And once you pass a certain depth, then you just you just sink, you don't even have to kick anymore. But you don't use that much energy because you just stay still and just keep thinking down further and further. But getting back up is a little harder. Yes, when you're fighting a fish,

Nick VinZant 13:11

you're talking about like fighting a fish. What is that? I get what that means, but also don't know what that means. So like, what is that? What is that? Exactly.

Lauren Sarasua 13:20

So when you shoot certain fish around structure, you, you don't want them to go inside. So let's say you're by a shipwreck or coral reef, and you shoot a fish, what you have to do immediately is grab your line and pull as hard as you can, going up to the surface so that you can try to prevent them from going into that structure and cutting your line or getting stuck. Anything like that.

Nick VinZant 13:50

Then how do you do that was like a big fish because I mean, like if I would think that a 50 pound fish is going to do whatever it wants with us in the water. Like if it decides it's going down. It's you're going with it.

Lauren Sarasua 14:02

Yeah. That's how you want to make sure that you get a good shot. But you know, if you don't, then you just have to deal with the consequences and it will take you a while to get them out of there. Especially if they're super deep.

Nick VinZant 14:17

So have you had some that will kind of like take you for a ride?

Lauren Sarasua 14:21

Yeah, definitely. And I've lost massive fish to the conocido eels that just grabbed the fish and pull it into a wreck and a tiny hole like like that. You're not You're not getting

Nick VinZant 14:39

you're not getting it. How popular is this?

Lauren Sarasua 14:44

Very popular, especially in like Hawaii and Bahamas. It's the only thing that's allowed that in something called a Hawaiian sling, which is basically the same concept just a little more primitive,

Nick VinZant 14:57

the even like compared to other forms of food Seeing?

Lauren Sarasua 15:01

Oh, no, I mean, rod and reel, I feel like is definitely the most popular.

Nick VinZant 15:07

Would you say is is it growing in terms of popularity? Or is it declining? Or is it about like, it's pretty much where it's always been

Lauren Sarasua 15:14

definitely gaining more popularity. There's a lot more people getting into it nowadays.

Nick VinZant 15:21

Why do you think that is?

Lauren Sarasua 15:23

I honestly, I don't know. But I think the pandemic had a lot to do with that. I think a lot of people kind of got freaked out that, you know, their food supply was out of their control. So I think a lot of people started hunting and spearfishing because of that, I knew a few people that started that way. Well, because of that reason.

Nick VinZant 15:48

Is it? I mean, it doesn't, it seems like a thing that you have to be in pretty decent shape to do, right like is it seems like a very physically demanding kind of thing.

Lauren Sarasua 15:59

I think if you're more like in the elite, beer fishing status, then yeah, but I feel like you can still get nice fish pretty shallow. And you know, you can get your, your like pan size numbers and make a delicious meal out of it. Even just diving 10 feet. So I don't think you really have to be that in shape to do it.

Nick VinZant 16:28

How long have you been doing it?

Lauren Sarasua 16:30

About five years now?

Nick VinZant 16:33

Is it something that people like? Or do they get hooked on it?

Lauren Sarasua 16:37

Yeah, definitely. No, I'm not gonna stop anytime soon. That's for sure.

Nick VinZant 16:43

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Hardest fish to catch easiest fish fish to catch?

Lauren Sarasua 16:51

Easiest fish to catch. It's probably a red grouper. Which, it's really hard because they're so cute. And they just like, look at you all stupid, like, with their little fins like, what do you do? But that's probably the easiest one. And then the hardest fish to shoot. At least in Miami, probably best neighbor. They're they're pretty, like sketchy. Like they, they tend to let you get very close to them.

Nick VinZant 17:26

What What kind of makes a fish easy to catch versus hard to catch? Is it just the size, their intelligence, their habits, like what makes one harder than the other?

Lauren Sarasua 17:36

Definitely, they're just they're, I mean, just the way that they behave. If they if a fish sees you and and runs away, then swims away. Definitely not gonna, they're not going to make it easy for you. But if they see you and they come out, and they're just like checking you out, like what the like, what are you doing it that makes it real simple. That covariates are like that, like, a lot of times you won't even see them, even if they're there. Because they see you first and they're gone.

Nick VinZant 18:12

That kind of that kind of leads us into this question that somebody submitted, which is, do the fish have to be dumb for this to

Lauren Sarasua 18:19

work? Depends on your skill level.

Nick VinZant 18:22

But it helps if they're kind of a dumb fish like, oh, they just kind of go.

Lauren Sarasua 18:27

Yeah, but that's like, not really challenging. Sometimes when you you know when you when you get better at this. I'm telling you want to, you want to keep it exciting and kind of go for something that's a little harder.

Nick VinZant 18:45

I would just be thinking that right? Like by the time I hold my breath and get down there, like I don't really have a lot of choices like skipping the first thing that's there. I can go back up. I can't hold my breath down.

Lauren Sarasua 18:56

That's definitely a possibility. So you could definitely get stuck with a quick breath hold.

Nick VinZant 19:03

I didn't realize it was that far down. I really thought you were gonna say it's like 10 or 15 feet down that it's doing that.

Lauren Sarasua 19:09

It could be it just depends on on where you're going and what you're hunting.

Nick VinZant 19:14

What kind of fish is like the most common that people are generally hunting like Usually people are gonna get this one.

Lauren Sarasua 19:20

nappers definitely snappers, they're like, in abundance here. You'll find them over call like the coral reefs, you'll find them in shipwrecks. So yeah, we have a lot of those there. You'll find them by bridges. You know, any type of structure they like to hang out up.

Nick VinZant 19:41

Anything like that. What is the best tasting one?

Lauren Sarasua 19:44

I love Oahu was a pelagic fish that just has this incredibly white. Does perfect for sushi and sashimi type me. So good.

Nick VinZant 20:00

That's interesting that you kind of started out for the basically for the cooking part of it.

Lauren Sarasua 20:04

I mean, why don't you try fresh fish. And the thing is, you're controlling it right. So you can decide whether you want it super fresh, you want to eat it that day, or you can, you can dry aged, you can wet aged, there's so many different ways to eat it. Like there's this fish that we have here called African pompano. If you eat that fish fresh, me put it off, very tough. It's an a chewy, but if you lay it and age it in your refrigerator, after two or three days, it's so good. It completely changes the texture, the flavor, everything. So it's just, there's so many more options for you. You go to a grocery store, they have the same fish all the time. And you don't know how old it is

Nick VinZant 20:59

biggest fish you've ever caught?

Lauren Sarasua 21:03

biggest fish? Oh, there has to be my my bluefin tuna in Turkey. How big was it? It was huge. I don't know exactly how much it weighed, because my scale broke. And it wouldn't turn on. But the fish that I had caught the day before was like 162 pounds, something like that. And this one was significantly bigger. So it had to be over 200 For sure. Something like it was much bigger.

Nick VinZant 21:38

But you would have to get that essentially like you'd have to kill that immediately. Right? Like that's not lingering at all or anything like that.

Lauren Sarasua 21:48

Tuna is. So you, you can't find a tuna. It's, it's just it you will you'll drown. So what you do is you have to somewhere, either you let your gun go, and it's attached to a line that's attached to buoys on the surface. Or your shaft. It's kind of like what I explain it, it releases from your gun, you keep holding your gun and your actual shaft in the shooting unit. You're attached to that. That buoy on the surface.

Nick VinZant 22:28

Oh, okay. But then how will I mean, when you like, when you get one? Where are you generally aiming for on the fish?

Lauren Sarasua 22:37

With tuna, since they're constantly moving, you want to aim? More ahead of it? Because then it'll probably swim into it. But I mean, I thought mine I was just like, I don't know, I wasn't even thinking I just

Nick VinZant 22:56

get it, get it get out the rest later. Right, I could see Yeah, best place around the United States to do it. Best place in the world.

Lauren Sarasua 23:05

Again, it just depends what you're going after. Because there's so many different fish and different places are known for their species. And you know, like, if you want to, if you want to shoot a giant Kuvera you're probably not going to get that in Miami. But you will be able to get that like in Mexico. But if you aren't getting a monster Wahoo then you go to French Polynesia. If you aren't giant bluefin tuna, you go to Turkey. Like there's just different. It really depends.

Nick VinZant 23:45

Is that a secret? Right? Like do you find a really good spot that people try to keep it secret?

Lauren Sarasua 23:51

No, definitely. But you know, I kind of screwed myself because I have a YouTube channel and I share my experiences. So I recently went to Turkey last year and shot Bluefin and I think I kind of opened the floodgates a little bit because a lot of people are going to try

Nick VinZant 24:14

this one is just if somebody is starting out, what should I learn how to do first What should I get that kind of stuff.

Lauren Sarasua 24:20

Definitely take a free diver course. Number one because you learn all the safety learn what to do if your dive buddy experiences a blackout. You learned proper inhalation like how to take the best breath, like the biggest breath. You learn technique, it's just all these things that will help you to become more like those fish that you want to copy. And yeah freediver course on your percent, get on that and then buy a pole spear or Hawaiian sling, something that you're going to have to do really learn how to get close to fish when you're hunting because with a spear gun, you can shoot them from a distance with a pole spear. You gotta get real close to them.

Nick VinZant 25:11

You have to be right there, right?

Lauren Sarasua 25:13

Yeah, you gotta be within a few feet.

Nick VinZant 25:16

Do you ever pretend like do you ever practice pretending to be a fish on land? Not really not just walking around the apartment or the house. No trying to be a fish. No, that's not Oh, you know,

Lauren Sarasua 25:32

maybe if I'm on a bar and you know, someone who

Nick VinZant 25:37

is who is the Michael Jordan of spearfishing, like who's the best spear fishers are somebody that people would look at and be like, that's the best spear Fisher of all time.

Lauren Sarasua 25:45

They're, I mean, they're the pioneers that you know, everybody looks up to and that or, you know, like Jay rife, started rife spearfishing. I mean, those guys were bad. Like diving in California and like, hold me wet too. Crazy, but Dr. Tarr is a living legend. He's awesome. I mean, pretty much any Hawaiians I feel like are really good divers and really cool. Like, very, very effective to your fishermen.

Nick VinZant 26:29

Now, is it just fish or can you get other things like crabs, lobsters, etc?

Lauren Sarasua 26:34

Yeah, any seafood?

Nick VinZant 26:36

Is there a fish or anything like that? That's like, Oh, that's too big. You can't even mess with that. Like people aren't getting like sharks or anything like that. Are they?

Lauren Sarasua 26:45

Sure they have I've never seen it personally, but I was really scary. I wouldn't want to. I don't want to piss off more than I already do.

Nick VinZant 26:56

Now, but Well, I would think that some other the other fish ever swoop in and take them.

Lauren Sarasua 27:02

Oh, yeah. Definitely, like goliath groupers. We have these huge groupers here that get up to 500 plus pounds. They just look like they're huge. No calm and just swallow up your fish and try to take it back into the shipwreck. The little bastards. Also, eels, I've gotten into a lot of tug of wars with eels. Sharks, obviously, that's like the most obvious one.

Nick VinZant 27:35

Yeah, that's kind of like how does the tug of war go? You're just pulling on the gun slash spear and they're pulling their way and you gotta hope you win.

Lauren Sarasua 27:44

Yeah, you gotta hope it doesn't come out with the fish and try to attack you.

Nick VinZant 27:50

That would be a problem. Right? Like I got it. Well, now it's coming for you.

Lauren Sarasua 27:54

Yeah, exactly. And then we also have barracudas. So all of these fish want your fish. And you got to deal with them.

Nick VinZant 28:03

That's pretty much all the questions I have. Is there anything that you think that we missed? Or how can kind of people get a hold of you follow you that kind of stuff?

Lauren Sarasua 28:11

Well, if anyone wants to follow me, I'm on Instagram and YouTube. Just look up my name Lauren, Sarah Sua. And you'll find me.

Nick VinZant 28:20

I want to thank Lauren so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have a link to her on our social media accounts, where Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube and threads. And we've also included her information in the episode description. This is one of those episodes, where I think seeing the things that we've been talking about really helps really helped me understand why this is hunting, and not not really fishing. It's fascinating to watch how this happens. And the YouTube version of this episode will be live on Thursday, July 27, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John show and get to the pointless part of the show. How far into a road trip Do you want to get before you stop?

John Shull 29:14

I mean, I only for gas, I would not want to stop. Let's just keep going all the way through. Let's just get to our destination.

Nick VinZant 29:20

That to me is the correct answer. I want to drive until I run out of gas. I don't like stop some people. My wife wants to stop like an hour or two hours in like no, I want to drive until we run out of gas. Then I want to get out of the car fill it up and drive again until we run out of gas.

John Shull 29:37

I will say though, on those few foot road trips I had that on. It seems like when I do pull over for gas and I'm getting back on the highway I've been pulled over three times by different entities in different states for different things.

Nick VinZant 29:54

Only after but this seems to happen right after you pull over to get gas. Yeah,

John Shull 29:59

I mean it Here's the other enough now that I think about, it's always been like either late night or early morning. And it's always a different excuse from the state police when I'm pulled over.

Nick VinZant 30:11

It's always a different excuse. It's not your fault. It's their fault. It's their fault that you broke the law.

John Shull 30:17

I didn't break any laws. I can tell you one time I got stopped in Tennessee because I said that I was driving a vehicle that looked like a homicide suspect vehicle. And I said, Well, did you run the plate? And he said it was dark out? I couldn't I couldn't catch up to you to run the plate even though, you know, that seemed weird. The other time that

Nick VinZant 30:36

seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation to be honest with you, right? Like I can tell what color and make a vehicle is much easier than I can see what the plate is, especially at night. Seems like a reasonable excuse

John Shull 30:47

me, I'm at a gas that pull up but at the pump behind me and be inconspicuous and run the plate. Why do you wait until I'm getting on the highway to pull me over?

Nick VinZant 30:57

Maybe he just realized it then. Right? I think that you're putting some blame where blame isn't really yeah, here we go. That's not my always, always everybody else's

John Shull 31:06

officer. Do we always okay, um, you know, it's not my fault.

Nick VinZant 31:10

Right. What about the other two instances? What were you doing? I

John Shull 31:12

think I think I talked about the one on the podcast before but we were in Georgia. And I was in a Chevy Spark. And I pulled all the gases with no headlights on and I got pulled over that I could see right. But as soon as he walked up, I actually was them. As soon as they walked up to the car and saw what was happening. They they immediately dismissed it and laughed. What was happening. What was I mean, you couldn't see in the car. I actually probably should have gotten a ticket because I couldn't see out the back window because of our luggage and stuff in the car. But

Nick VinZant 31:46

wait a minute, you didn't have lights on What time were you driving? Was it driving it? No. Yeah,

John Shull 31:52

this is probably I don't know two three M if I

Nick VinZant 31:56

recall correctly, and the lights in the car didn't work.

John Shull 32:00

I mean, we're talking a decade ago and a Chevy Spark it's not like I was driving a Tesla

Nick VinZant 32:06

that lights on the outside of the vehicle like other people couldn't see or they just the lights on inside the car couldn't Why

John Shull 32:12

are you baffled by this? It was the headlights you had to literally like pulling

Nick VinZant 32:17

you driving. That's why I'm baffled by it because you're driving at night without the headlights on because

John Shull 32:22

I must have turned them off to get gas. And I am I was so used to like we all are to turning the car on and the headlights just come on. Now this car didn't have automatic light control.

Nick VinZant 32:34

This is why this is why I'm upset because of the basic thing that you said and the basic philosophy that you have in life that it's everybody has also said true and you're driving. It's not driving the same car as a murder suspect. And then you're driving at night with your lights off and you're mad at the police. We're pulling you over.

John Shull 32:51

Okay, well, you're gonna love this one then. We were in what's your fault. We were in West Virginia. And I had just gotten on like, excuse my language, but a podunk town, like and I pull out I get gas. And I as soon as I get back in the car, I accidentally hit the gas just a little much and I squeal the tires a little bit on accident. Like I swear to God, I hit us an oil patch. I didn't even get it. I didn't even get to the exit of the gas station. And I mean, this cop had like, you could tell he had been he'd been waiting all day.

Nick VinZant 33:28

Yeah, dude, if you spill your tires in front of a conflict and pull you over, man, did you make eye contact with him too? Yeah, he gave me a ticket actually. Yeah, all of these seem like pretty legitimately your fault.

John Shull 33:39

Yeah. Well, I tell you what, West Virginia, you know, thank you very much, because I haven't tried fighting that ticket. And I still lost so

Nick VinZant 33:49

Yeah, dude, anytime I've gotten a ticket I've been like, Yeah, I mean, I didn't say this. Obviously I denied it and tried to play stupid but like I did, I did that. I got hot.

John Shull 34:01

I think and I think in West Virginia that that case, I messed up because I thought I was going to be smart. And pull the gas station camera video, surveillance video to show that I wasn't like being a menace. Like I just might have had an oil patch, which caused the tires to rotate quickly. Well, this gas station doesn't have cameras. So

Nick VinZant 34:21

yeah. Anyway, I just I just don't understand why you're baffled as to a police officer pulling you over for driving at night without light.

John Shull 34:29

Well, no, though, that I guess that was on me. But you know, you know, I don't know. It's obvious. Listen, and I say this kind of jokingly, like I I don't say this jokingly the stories were kind of jokes but like, I have all the love and respect for police officers. They have I mean, they deal with shit conditions. But you know, I felt they could have been a little nicer especially during that situation. But as soon as they looked at me and my my girlfriend at the time in the bathroom seat, they were like yeah, this guy's and drunk. He's not hot. If it's not a menace to society,

Nick VinZant 35:03

I actually have a very good friend of mine that once told a police officer who thought that he might have been drunk and pulled him over at a time when like, okay, there's probably some drunk people out there. He's like, Sir, have you been drinking? And he just said, No, I'm just stupid. And the guy's like, okay, and he wasn't drinking. He was really just being stupid. And the guy was like, No, I'm just stupid. And the conscious life is like, Get out of here. Me. Wow. Okay, like he pretty clearly wasn't doing the thing that they pulled him over for thinking he was doing like, he's just an idiot. Like, get out of here. Yeah, the only time I've ever been mad about getting pulled over is I think I got a ticket for like five overs I come that you're pushing it there. That's like, alright, because you can just accidentally momentarily kind of go five over 10 over your, you're pushing it a little bit. But if somebody if you're on a road trip and somebody wants to stop an hour in, like, are you going to complain?

John Shull 35:59

I mean, now say something, you can say something to young children, like I have to now but I can I can play now. But if I'm in a car with all the adults, and we're an hour in and someone has to, like, you know, no, like you can pee in a bucket or a Gatorade bottle.

Nick VinZant 36:15

I used to, there was a time in my life when I used to specifically buy power aids because they had a very large lip on them. It's very easy to kind of, you know, make adjustments so that you could do that safe. Ah, I'm, I don't want to stop before two and a half hours. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a little upset. If we're stopping for two and a half hours with adults.

John Shull 36:38

I will say that my my thought process on road trips has changed as I've gotten older. Like now if I'm on a road trip, even even if it's a day trip, like I'm just chillin. Like if the if you want to stop and go to a tourist town along the way, like let's do it, like, you know, but back when I was younger, it's it was going from point A to point B like, let's just get there.

Nick VinZant 37:00

Depends on me where you're doing. If you're driving straight interstate, I just want to be getting like let's just get there for doing the scenic route. And I'm okay with stopping but I'm not stopping at buches. Actually, I would stop at buches fantastic gas station. But I'm not stopping at the world's largest ball of twine or some crap like that off. I pick a number.

John Shull 37:20

I keep it moving. And I would actually want to see the largest ball of twine.

Nick VinZant 37:25

I've seen it. It's in Kansas, from Kansas. I know what it is. It's a big ball of twine. It's not that impressive. I've also seen the world's largest hand dug well, which is like Damn, that's pretty big. But I don't care. It's not

John Shull 37:39

as big as getting them laid any any quicker.

Nick VinZant 37:42

I'm pretty sure the people who are participated in the world's largest hand dug well. wish they would have been doing something else besides digging that well, because it's like 100 feet down. I mean, it's like it's really impressive. People dug that, but you shouldn't just not live there.

John Shull 37:57

It it is a little much though right now. Like when you think about how many world records there are and how stupid some of those are.

Nick VinZant 38:07

There's a world record for pretty much everything right? Like the good chance that you might have a world record or something.

John Shull 38:12

Oh, but you're drinking their Kool Aid.

Nick VinZant 38:16

No. Power a red power. Identify you hidden. It's not glass. It's fake glass. It's that plastic that looks like glass, but it's fancy. I like drinking out of a cup now. I go back and forth. Sometimes I'll go bottle sometimes I'm like drinking out of a cup.

John Shull 38:33

I yeah, I think I usually drink out of a glass cup. It's a lot more eco friendly.

Nick VinZant 38:41

Oh, I just go with for tastes like I feel a little bit more like I'll feel like I'll drink it a little bit more. Especially water. Unless you were talking about a bubbler. I love drinking out of a bubbler.

John Shull 38:51

I don't know what a bubbler is.

Nick VinZant 38:55

Waterfowl dude, what do you call

John Shull 38:57

a water fountain? Okay, I've never heard of it called a bubbler there Bluejeans

Nick VinZant 39:03

bubbler, go to the bubbler. Man Did you put your mouth all over it?

John Shull 39:07

Ah, no, I

Nick VinZant 39:08

don't think Yes or no Yes or No. Do you look like a guy who put his mouth on the water fountain?

John Shull 39:12

Do I look? Yes. Was I know? Was I know I know. I've never done that. Yeah, not that I can recall anyways. Though, that's such

Nick VinZant 39:27

a great descriptor though. He looks like a guy who puts his mouth all the way over the water fountain.

John Shull 39:32

There was a point in time to where I would argue that like a water fountain like long draw from a waterphone on cold water phone is one of the was one of the greatest things as a kid.

Nick VinZant 39:44

Very thirst quenching, very thirst quenching.

John Shull 39:48

But like I also feel like you had to go to the certain kind of school to appreciate it. You know what I mean? Like you had to go to the school that probably don't have air conditioning. And you're cramped into a little room with 40 other kids adds

Nick VinZant 40:01

to me it also had to be metal the metal plastic not that porcelain looking thing No No How do you don't like drinking out of a porcelain one that makes me feel a little bit more like

John Shull 40:14

the metal one had like those the weird grates in it that you always wondered like what they were for you never knew where the water went.

Nick VinZant 40:21

Spit I think if people hadn't spirit and you don't know what people are doing in a waterfowl

John Shull 40:26

MAN Yeah, it was there was the occasional booger. I remember I do remember that. Every now and again. Oh, I don't want I don't think about it. Okay, should we go from bugger water fountains, two shout outs. That seems like a good transition. Sure. All right. Let's see. We'll start off with Tullio Vargas. Aaron Rebbes

Nick VinZant 40:47

what Tullio

John Shull 40:49

Tullio and he spelled totul I O. Right to Leo okay to Leo to Leo. I apologize if we butchered your name to Leo or to Leo trip tomorrow homozygous

Nick VinZant 41:09

said their real name trip tomorrow

John Shull 41:12

mean it looks like an actual profile but I mean, who knows? trip tomorrow Joe's is a Feliciano don't and Peters. That's a good American name like a good to home school, you know? homebred Dalton Dalton is a good, good name.

Nick VinZant 41:32

You can only live in certain states with a name like dolt and true. Idaho can live in Idaho. Having your name be Dalton, Montana, Texas, Texas. Yeah, South Dakota, North Dakota, Vermont, maybe Nebraska. Vermont, I think of as generally being like a little bit more upscale.

John Shull 41:54

Yeah, I would agree. I was kind of just being foolish. Miles Dobell. Daniel do Mayor Steven Caputo. Mack Max Lucas. And Omar I UB

Nick VinZant 42:14

nice selection of all the names that you can't do. Like Pac

John Shull 42:18

Man, I last week was too easy. Alright, so I got a couple of bangers for you. Which one will you see first? The Barbie movie or Oppenheimer?

Nick VinZant 42:33

whichever one comes out on streaming first.

John Shull 42:37

It's funny you say that I saw something and I can't cite it. But I saw something that said that streaming. Last week officially surpassed cable in terms of more viewership and things. I don't know how they I can't

Nick VinZant 42:49

believe it hasn't already. I would have thought that happened two years ago. I wouldn't watch either of them. Actually. Now that I think about it. I will watch YouTube clips of Oppenheimer when that hits YouTube. But once a movie becomes part, once the movie hits like a certain cultural mass, I just won't watch it. Like, ah, I don't want to watch you because I don't want to be part of any discussions around the Barbie. I just want to be like, have you seen it? No. Don't have to be a part of this conversation with

John Shull 43:18

Barbie movies a lot I think to take in. And I think there's a lot of women girls, who you probably look at it like how men view like the Marvel movies and the DC movies. But I feel like the Barbie movie is going to live up to none of that.

Nick VinZant 43:34

I'm fast. I'm always fascinated just how we as a society, and people in general will make a big deal out of anything. Like we will make a big deal out of anything, if given the chance. Sure. I mean, if nothing else is going on. We're going to elevate like the lowest other thing, right? Like, what's the biggest thing happening? Well, Barbie movie, I guess. All right, make that a big deal.

John Shull 43:57

Well, I mean, I think it also helps who's in it? I mean, if it didn't, I

Nick VinZant 44:01

don't even know I will mark or couldn't even tell you anybody

John Shull 44:03

mean Margot Robbie and why is his name and Nicholas Guy Yeah, Nicholas godson, Ryan Gosling. Okay, I mean,

Nick VinZant 44:14

major case there. Yeah, I didn't case I didn't who and what's its whosits and whatsits?

John Shull 44:20

Well, rumor has it that Oppenheimer is going to sweep the Academy Awards next year, so we'll see what happens.

Nick VinZant 44:26

Okay, well, you are trusted correspondent on all things Academy Awards.

John Shull 44:30

I like to think I'm pretty row well versed and movie

Nick VinZant 44:34

you didn't even you call somebody Nicolas Gosling.

John Shull 44:38

Anyways, the second one I know

Nick VinZant 44:39

a lot about movies with that Tim Smith actor. Anyways, he slapped a guy at the last Oscars with Jim Smith.

John Shull 44:49

Would you prefer Do you prefer cold drinks or hot drinks?

Nick VinZant 44:54

Cold drinks. I can't think of any drink that I want hot. Hot chocolate is the only drink that I have. One hot I don't drink coffee though but other than that, the only drink that I want hot is coffee. Or I mean hot chocolate. I nothing else literally. Nothing else do I want a hot drink.

John Shull 45:09

So I mean I drink coffee but I only drink a cold but like there there is a spot for like a good like hot tea are hot Saki Saki is pretty good hot to see. Oh my god. No, what's get outta here. Get out of here. You're insane. I

Nick VinZant 45:31

need a tea. I need a nice hot tea to relax my nerves.

John Shull 45:35

I mean, that's not why I drink it out. I do like lavender tea. Okay, all right. I like lavender. And I like lavender candles.

Nick VinZant 45:42

I like I like how you go against my argument. And the first one you pick is not like chai tea, or herbal tea or black tea. But it's like lavender. Like you pick the worst example of mainly teas that you could get lavender.

John Shull 45:56

I mean, lavender is or that lavender is is amazing. And you should get on it.

Nick VinZant 46:04

No, I'm all right. I'm entering my power eight actually, I like to drink cheeps whatever it is. Anyway,

John Shull 46:10

so here are here are the you know, the the Profoundly Pointless of fact or fiction? You are six of eight, by the way.

Nick VinZant 46:19

Actually, we had a number of comments about one of your things with the wall fun. And pretty much everybody agreed with me that your question was a misleading question. And that that was ultimately just to dolphins and had nothing to do. So that should be bumped up.

John Shull 46:33

So you want to be six for seven then you want to be six for seven?

Nick VinZant 46:36

Yeah, better than six. Right? Okay, fine.

John Shull 46:39

Well, we'll make sure you know,

Nick VinZant 46:41

and I kind of think it's eight that should be six for six. Because one of those was pretty misleading. Like you're getting into leading questions kinds of stuff, right? Where there's trig answers. There needs to be either a straight yes or no, not. Well, kind of depends on this.

John Shull 46:56

Well, I'll tell you what, I think the four that I picked today or for this episode, are pretty, pretty black one. But you know what? People will still find a way to pretend that they have academia knowledge about something that they probably don't regardless. Fact or Fiction. You only have two body parts that never stopped growing.

Nick VinZant 47:20

I have no idea. I mean, my do I need to ask my wife if there's a third? two body parts that never stop growing? Well, probably your hair and your nails.

John Shull 47:34

You don't have to get the two body parts. True or False? I'm not going to ask you. True. You are correct. Human noses and ears. Never stopped growing. Every other part of your body does

Nick VinZant 47:51

your nose never set? Well. Then how slow does it grow that you never notice it

John Shull 47:56

that that? I don't know. But

Nick VinZant 47:59

but Yeah, yours never stopped growing? No. And

John Shull 48:02

I'm sure it's incrementally Right. Like,

Nick VinZant 48:05

do you think people would look weird or without noses or

John Shull 48:08

without ears? Noses for sure. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 48:11

I think so. I mean, you can really pretty easily envision people without a years

John Shull 48:15

because What's that movie? Harry Potter? I think we're well find. Finds plays. Oh, yeah. That's,

Nick VinZant 48:23

I thought you were our Oscar correspondent. Yeah, I just read Potter Lord vault just

John Shull 48:29

named the actor. You just name the character. You're welcome.

Nick VinZant 48:34

Okay, do you think okay, here's a question for you. Right. And this is a question that I have asked several people. And it's been a topic of debate. Do I have big years? There right there where you kind of yes, you kind of know. So little bit difficult to say it's like, oh, they Yeah, no, yeah. No. No, yeah. No.

John Shull 48:58

I guess I'd have to see. I guess I have to see you again. And really like, in real life. You'd have to see up close touch your ears. Maybe touch them a little bit. See if they're soft.

Nick VinZant 49:07

I'm very soft ears. But you can't tell right? Are they big? Are they not big? It's like yeah, no. No. Yeah. All right, I'm fascinated by

John Shull 49:22

second factor fiction for you factor fiction. Toads will give you awards if you touch them. That's not true. It is not true. No. They do carry HPV.

Nick VinZant 49:36

However, human papilloma virus, human papilloma virus that is true

John Shull 49:39

or HPV for all of us who are not educated. However, according to this doctor who I'm not going to try to pronounce their name. If you wanted to get a work from a toad, you would have to come in contact with at least 30 Different kinds of Toads to contract any kind of virus that would Don't leave anything on your skin. So, okay, cool. Fact or Fiction? Bees can fly higher than Mount Everest

Nick VinZant 50:16

I mean, no, it's too cold up there, right but they've gotten like spiders and there are some birds that can fly up there for some reason I looked that up the other day. So it was like no, I would say wrong. It's kind of one of those. Okay, yeah,

John Shull 50:31

come on. all you haters out there prove me wrong on this. According to National Geographic a bees can fly higher than 29,525 feet above sea level that is higher than Mount Everest. Here. Here's what we're learning with this factor fiction is that you do not like to be wrong and you will do everything to spin it. So you are right. Shaved hair grows back thicker. Oh, I don't think that's true. You are correct. According to the Mayo Clinic. The only thing that Shaving can do is give hair a blunt tip which will make it feel stubbly or more coarse, but it will not the hair itself will not grow back. thicker.

Nick VinZant 51:16

Yeah, it just feels different. Because it's new hair as opposed to longer hair that you used to have. Well,

John Shull 51:22

that's why I have no hair,

Nick VinZant 51:23

I guess is I think the basic thing with all facts and fiction is if it's common knowledge are something that you've heard, it's probably wrong. And if it's in regard to an animal doing something amazing, it's probably true.

John Shull 51:37

I mean, I just think it's hard to argue with facts and things that have been scientifically proven one way or the other.

Nick VinZant 51:45

But yet people do it all the time. Yeah, well,

John Shull 51:47

that's, you know, including us. We're I guess we're part of that. The problem or and

Nick VinZant 51:52

who? I don't understand that. I don't understand that comment. You don't like to be wrong. Does anyone like to be wrong? I mean, do you know people that are like, I fucking love being wrong? Well, I all I want to be is wrong.

John Shull 52:04

I think like being wrong, though, can also be turned into motivation can be turned into, you know, learning like, so. No, do I want to be wrong? Of course not. But can I be wrong? Of course.

Nick VinZant 52:18

Yeah, I mean, I'm wrong all the time. The last time I was wrong was the time I thought I was wrong. I mean, I love that joke. This is what I say to my family all the time. I've only been wrong once in my life. The time I thought I was wrong.

John Shull 52:33

I mean, we're both married, right? So turns out I was

Nick VinZant 52:37

right. Anyway, this look how good this drink look. Yeah, it does. Red is the best looking colored drink,

John Shull 52:46

though, right? Even like it looks not even close.

Nick VinZant 52:49

Okay, what are you going to say? green or blue? No, I would even argue better looking.

John Shull 52:56

I would even argue to say that something clear, like maybe even water. If you get it in the right class. It can look a male

Nick VinZant 53:03

it's gotta be it's got to be colored. It's got to be colored. I think that red looks like something that's good to drink needs to be a bright, strong color. That's

John Shull 53:12

also why you have Kool Aid stains around your lips right now. I love it. Love it. All right.

Nick VinZant 53:18

Are you ready for a top? Are you ready for a top, I've

John Shull 53:20

been waiting for 28 minutes for our top five.

Nick VinZant 53:23

So our top five is top five best things to see Wait, top five things to see in the air stuff where you look up and you're like, Oh, that's cool to see. What's your number five. There's a lot there's a lot

John Shull 53:38

of there's so many. Um, my number five is airplanes. And I can go even one one step further than say like, like a, like a military jet or something like that, like something fast and quick. Not necessarily a commercial jet. But really any airplanes are pretty awesome.

Nick VinZant 53:56

I think that airplanes I think are impossible. And Can Can you hear an airplane and not look for it? No. Have you ever heard an airplane and then just not even looked around in the sky to see where it might be?

John Shull 54:08

No, I definitely like a cat. And I always look around. And then I always wonder like, How can I not see it when it's a blue? Like when it's a blue Clear Sky Day?

Nick VinZant 54:18

You get a little annoyed with yourself if you can't find it within say like three or four seconds.

John Shull 54:23

I mean, I do wonder what's wrong with me sometimes. Yes.

Nick VinZant 54:28

I don't think that airplanes are impressive enough. It's not an impressive enough thing to see in this guy. I don't think that it belongs. Honestly, really in the top 10 When you look at all the other kinds of things, maybe a fighter jet. Yeah, he'd agree with you on a fighter jet. But airplanes in general is not impressive enough. Mind number five is a hot air balloon. Anytime you see a hot air balloon up in the sky, you're gonna be like, oh, a hot air balloon. Where's it going? Where did it come from? What are they looking at? What's going on? Always got questions when a hot air balloon is seen in the sky.

John Shull 54:58

See, I don't know I have them impressive at all, and I don't really wising them going by the sky. I mean, obviously, I'm going to go, oh, there's a hot air balloon. Watch out for those power lines. But

Nick VinZant 55:09

yeah, you always wonder about it like, oh, what's gonna happen? Right? Like, there's a lot of questions, a lot of thoughts go through your head, what's your number for them?

John Shull 55:17

So I know what you're gonna say here on this. And you're gonna say, This doesn't count, but it's in the sky, and it comes out of the sky. So I put raindrops like rain.

Nick VinZant 55:29

But you can't see the individual raindrops I don't think I just don't agree with Oh, but

John Shull 55:35

you can, but you can see it fall. And you know, it's I don't know, it's, once it becomes I guess it always is a solid. But whether or not you can see it coming from the sky, it comes from the sky and hits the earth, right, like

Nick VinZant 55:51

so. So it is light.

John Shull 55:53

Right? You and maybe one of us has the sun on our list.

Nick VinZant 55:57

I don't have the sun on my list. And the thing is, this is why I disagree with you, is because when you see the rain, you don't look up and see the rain. You see the rain like right as it's by the ground, so it's not really in the sky. It's kind of by the ground really like you don't really see the rain until it's at house level.

John Shull 56:15

I mean, that's not that's not wrong. I but I want to I'm keeping it.

Nick VinZant 56:21

Okay. My number three, four. No, wait. My number four is a storm. I love watching.

John Shull 56:29

Basically, what a storm. It's

Nick VinZant 56:31

not the same thing. I mean, there's rain, storm. clouds and lightning, like clouds spinning round that's up in the sky. Rain is on the ground. Okay. Okay, my number four is a storm.

John Shull 56:45

Okay, well, I think there's similar and I think you could, you know, say both are acceptable as being one but whatever storms rain storm is

Nick VinZant 56:57

the storm is very different than rain. Storm is like I'm talking about like the clouds. You get that dark look. They got lightning coming out a storm, not just rain. I live in Seattle, man. Don't talk to me about rain.

John Shull 57:10

It's rain. 22 or less. 41 days here. All right. Talk to me about rain young man. All right, my number three. I I felt like you have to put this one on there. So I don't want to put it at the back and I want to put at the front. But I put the moon.

Nick VinZant 57:26

That's my number three. Two is the moon. Yeah. The Moon is always interesting.

John Shull 57:31

Yeah, it's just I mean, I don't know about you. But when I look up at it, I always go how do we land there? And why does it look like a bruised apple?

Nick VinZant 57:40

I don't really have any other thoughts besides that to the moon when I look at the moon, but I do. The only time I'm ever confused is when it's out in the middle of the day. Like I'm always slightly lost about what's going on. Like, wait a minute, how's the moon out and it's not dark? I'm always slightly confused.

John Shull 57:57

I just I it's incredible. It's it goes along with another one on my list coming up which, which we'll get to I guess a couple times here. What is going on my dog up there? Good God. I don't know man has to man. He doesn't like you know, the distractions happen at the worst time. You know what I mean? Like, it sounds that's how life is made. So we're on my number two. So my number two and once again, I I feel like you have to put this on a top five things you look at in the sky list. But I'm not really proud of it. And that's just like that's like an animal like a bird. Like slay no any any flying object in animal I feel like has to be on there. You know? Whether it be a bird or a bee or something. You just you're always looking up at the sky and seeing animals and then you just stay fixated on them.

Nick VinZant 58:50

The only thing that I can put in that is like a butterfly, like all watch a butterfly flying around, but I don't really care about any of the birds. I don't really care about birds in general. Honestly, like I like them. Right? I understand the importance of birds, but I'm nevertheless like, ooh, bird.

John Shull 59:08

Oh, there's a Yeah, I don't know. It's just, you know, once again, it's like I just I was thinking about things and yeah, every time I see somebody just follow through the sky like a like especially ducks or like geese and things. Like if I see geese and like the Flying V. Heading south for the winter, I'm just staring up at the sky.

Nick VinZant 59:28

What is the plural of geese? Geese? Goose a goose goose is one geese is several

John Shull 59:35

Yeah, so that's why it's so when I say geese flying and ah

Nick VinZant 59:39

Hmm. I really want to change something out and put I don't really want this to be my number two, but I kind of jam myself up here so it's not really my number two I was gonna say it's my number two is a helicopter. I'm always impressed by a helicopter and I always wonder what's going on. helicopter flies over you because something is going on when a helicopter flies over you.

John Shull 1:00:06

Okay. I mean, yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, that happened just the other day. And I was like, Oh, what is that it was a medical helicopter. So you, you are right, you're right, right.

Nick VinZant 1:00:15

There's always something going on when the helicopter flies over you, what's your number one?

John Shull 1:00:20

So stars or planets, I guess you could say actually, extraterrestrial beings even. But man, I, back during the pandemic, I fell in love my wife and I would do, you know, date nights out in the backyard. And we would just look up at the sky. And, you know, we downloaded apps and we even bought a telescope, we would search out stars and planets and things.

Nick VinZant 1:00:46

What did you find was your favorite planet there? Johnny?

John Shull 1:00:49

Venus is quite bright as you can imagine. You know, Jupiter has

Nick VinZant 1:00:53

been on a telescope. Like how much of it? Did you spend? I just need to I need to frame I don't mean to interrupt you. I need a frame of reference. For like, if were you like seeing the rings of Saturn, or did you spend like 20 bucks on Amazon?

John Shull 1:01:05

No, I think it was I think it was about 100 bucks. I mean, it wasn't like, wasn't the lowest model but by no means was it like an expert model. I, I just wanted something to go like 64 times. So like I could maybe see close. But you know, they don't tell you that at night. It's dark. So unless you really zoom in on it, you're not gonna see anything other than a bright light. So

Nick VinZant 1:01:28

no one no one tells you that it was dark at night.

John Shull 1:01:33

I don't know what I was expecting. But I do remember looking I remember we got Mars into the viewfinder and I remember looking in like, Man, I'm gonna see like lava on the surface and heat resonating. And nothing. No, it was just a bright light.

Nick VinZant 1:01:47

Yeah, it just looks brighter. Like he's not like you can really see anything. It's just a closer up brighter thing. Like I could just be standing at the other end of the telescope with a flashlight and I'm looking at Jupiter.

John Shull 1:02:02

You would be that dick. But yes, you're absolutely

Nick VinZant 1:02:05

stupid. No one told me that it was going to be dark at night. But that is one of those things that like you forget the simplest thing like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, life is complicated. My number one. I can't believe I forgot about this one that we didn't put on there. But it was my number one is a shooting star. I think that's the coolest thing to see.

John Shull 1:02:27

So I'm glad you brought that up. Because like I would have put the Northern Lights on my list. However, Oh, yeah. However, not everyone gets it. Like it's not like you just look up into the sky and they're universal. Yeah, they're it's not like they're a regular occurrence like everything else is to a certain extent.

Nick VinZant 1:02:46

That's why I didn't put a clips on there. Otherwise, I would have put a clips

John Shull 1:02:51

just you want to talk about a sham every time there's a total eclipse people buy the glasses and like it's just ridiculous. I

Nick VinZant 1:03:00

mean, how is that a sham? You're not supposed to look at it or you go blind. It's just it's just another mark like they're making it it's not like they're making it up. Oh, but you can't stare at the sun. Right? I understand that you were baffled by the idea that it's dark concept that you can't stare at the sun is suddenly like what

John Shull 1:03:25

what's that out there?

Nick VinZant 1:03:27

Fuck is that not gonna listen to the government doctors telling me not to stare at the sky the sun?

John Shull 1:03:35

I tell you what that COVID I put the son there on purpose. Do you think

Nick VinZant 1:03:39

he's a really go blind? Like how long would it really take to go blind looking at this How long would you be willing to risk it? If somebody's like five seconds would you go would you go three?

John Shull 1:03:50

I go five seconds somebody turns to go but if somebody

Nick VinZant 1:03:53

said you go blind if you stare at it for five seconds straight? How long would you push it when you put it how much money am I getting? I'll give you a million dollars to go for 4.5 seconds would

John Shull 1:04:04

you be like dude I need like 100 million like I need to be set and then my family is family needs to be set because I'm going to be blind

Nick VinZant 1:04:11

yeah he'd really bright like how much would all right what what amount of money would you stare at the sun until you went blind for

John Shull 1:04:22

I mean 500 million pa that's

Nick VinZant 1:04:26

what I think it'd be too because I don't know if I can ever actually do it unless like pay me in a billion dollars but you guys stare at the Sunday go blind

John Shull 1:04:35

you know I not not to like point out any of the our communities you know, of disabilities here but I would not want to lose my sight like I would rather lose my hearing. My tail like my sight is the one thing I do not want to lose.

Nick VinZant 1:04:51

As a person who does not have one of their senses. I don't have a sense of smell. I don't know what I would like $1 amount that I would put on the was in a sense, but I mean, I probably would lose sense you smell first, right? Like they were handing out checks like a pyramid, right? Like a million for this 10 million for this 100 million for that a billion like, Oh, I'll take the million for smell. That's pretty Yeah.

John Shull 1:05:15

I mean, I would get 10 million for sure.

Nick VinZant 1:05:19

What's in your honorable mention of things to look at in the sky? Well, five things. Top five things to look at in the sky is what we should have.

John Shull 1:05:28

Yeah, well did call it, I think is what you call it. Um, I have the sun. I have the Northern Lights. I have lightning bugs.

Nick VinZant 1:05:37

Oh, lightning bugs are pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't put them in the top five. But I'm like, oh, lightning, now they're a matter

John Shull 1:05:42

of mentioned. And then I just have paper lanterns as well. Those are pretty cool. If you ever seen those, and never seen them until they run into a power line and catch on fire and then catch the farm on fire.

Nick VinZant 1:05:56

Um, I have, like I said, an eclipse. The sunset. Sunrise Sunset is clearly better than sunrise. I think I don't think there's any argument about that. Um, various types of clouds. I do enjoy seeing are you shaking your head at the sunset? Like it's not a great thing. My

John Shull 1:06:15

My only argument with that is is like once you've seen it like it's over. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, we're gonna stay up to watch the sunset. Like, No, you're not.

Nick VinZant 1:06:24

I'm not staying. Well. I mean, like, there's not really that late. Or I'm

John Shull 1:06:29

sorry, getting up early to watch the sunrise are like, like, it's like, no, like, once you've done it once. Okay, I've seen the sunrise. It's fine.

Nick VinZant 1:06:36

It's one of those things. It's really not. I mean, a good sense. That can be pretty impressive. But it just makes a good picture. I don't know if it makes for as good of like a actual experience. It's something that people save that they like to do, as opposed to like, hey, it's really not that big. I saw the sunset. Yeah, I see it every day. But you know what, though? You probably one that probably one that you kind

John Shull 1:07:00

of said it earlier about something like something that we take for granted. And if any of us were on our deathbed, we'd be like, Man, I really wish I could see the sunset. So maybe we should appreciate the sunset more.

Nick VinZant 1:07:11

I think we should appreciate pretty much everything a little bit. Right? Even the things that bother us, right? Life is all about the struggle. Um, I have a kite. I enjoy seeing a kite. I'm always slightly impressed by a kite. Also like to see us I live in a place where they have sea planes. Sea Plane is a totally different type of viewing experience than a plane or a helicopter. See plane like, Oh, it's a sea plane. But whatever. It's different. I'm just telling you it's a little bit more impressive. Right? If I'm going to talk about motorized vehicles that are in the sky, sea plane is probably my number one. Parachute somebody parachute and that's always cool to see.

John Shull 1:07:52

Man. I feel like people don't like that because they you know, we're all cynics at the end of the day. So they always hope for something bad, right. That's why people watch daredevils. I don't really want to see them succeed.

Nick VinZant 1:08:04

I don't really want to see anybody fall out of the sky. Kind of terrible person. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a rating or review doesn't have to be anything big. Just a couple of quick words really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the coolest things to see in the sky? I could have really I mean, an Eclipse isn't it's incredible, right? Like it's a totally unique experience. But it just doesn't happen often enough to I think really be number one. I think it's shooting star. But I mean, if you put sunset in there, by I don't I don't agree with John. It's not just some everyday thing. Like it's still pretty impressive, but I think a lot of people would put sunset

Rush Consultant Lorie Stefanelli

They’re secretive and they’re selective but Rush Consultant Lorie Stefanelli specializes in helping young women get into the sorority of their dreams. We talk rush does and don’ts, why sororities are popular again and the secrets hidden behind closed doors. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Bad Sayings.

Lorie Stefanelli: 01:40

Pointless: 40:26

Top 5 Bad Sayings: 01:03:23

Contact the Show

Lorie Stefanelli's Website (Greek Chic)

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Interview with Sorority Rush Consultant Lorie Stefanelli

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode rush, and bad sayings,

Lorie Stefanelli 0:21

they now have to make a video, they have to do essay questions. So it's not just like showing up in a cute dress anymore. That's by design, because it's marketing. They want to market themselves as a certain type of house or sorority on campus, TV and in movies, really take that stereotype and run with it and make it so like, just gross, I guess I can't even begin to tell you how many doors have opened. For me, being a part of my sorority,

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest specializes in helping people get into the sororities of their dreams. But even if you're not interested in what you should do, or you shouldn't do, I think she has a fascinating look at fraternities and sororities, the role they play in our society, the secrets they have, and why we're so fascinated. This is rush consultant, Maury Stefanelli. What is rush like for people who are not familiar with this, what is rush?

Lorie Stefanelli 1:45

Sure, so sorority Rush is the process in which young women college aged usually 18, fresh out of high school who are fixing to go off to college and want to join a sorority. So basically, what that entails is, they sign up to go through the process, and they go and visit all the different houses that are on their campus. And then from there, you know, it gets narrowed down to, you know, their choice at the end for the day.

Nick VinZant 2:11

So it's essentially like a selection process, right? It's auditioning for a selection process.

Lorie Stefanelli 2:16

Yes, I would definitely say it's more of a selection, mutual selection process, both on the sorority side, and on the potential new member side.

Nick VinZant 2:23

Why is this important? Why is getting into a good sorority or a sorority? Like why is this so important to people?

Lorie Stefanelli 2:30

Sure, I think it's important to young women, especially now, it's important because it's giving them a community within a smaller community within a bigger community of their college campus. So it allows him to connect with other women who share the same values, who are like minded, and allows them to also get involved in other areas on campus and within the community as well. But obviously, for social reasons, right? Like people want to be social in college, they want to have fun and go to football games and parties and things like that. So this is definitely a good place to do that with. And if that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 3:10

Is it more than kind of the cool club at the end of the day?

Lorie Stefanelli 3:13

It is to be quite honest. You know, there's a lot of girls who maybe aren't like the big partiers, but instead, what they like to do is they are more into their academics. So it's allows them to push themselves a little bit further, because you have to keep up your grades in order to stay in the sorority. It gives them scholarship opportunities as well within the national organization. So yeah, I mean, it's definitely a stepping stone and it opens a lot of doors for so many women.

Nick VinZant 3:43

When it goes through like the rush process, the selection process. Is this about somebody's grades, somebody's morals, somebody's ethics, or is this like, she's cute, and she's pretty, she looks like us bring her in the club.

Lorie Stefanelli 3:58

Um, I would definitely say it's a little bit of both. So I think more of the like, she's a well rounded person, we really like her. But there are certain houses at certain campuses that are more like, Oh, she's really cute. Like, we would love to have her. We call them Lux houses. And so that's kind of like what they're into. And that's perfectly fine. If that's something that you're into as well then Godspeed, but I think some other girls are more like, we want the full package.

Nick VinZant 4:28

I think that may be for people who are looking at it first from the outside, like, this is like an inside versus outside, right? Like if you're on the inside. This makes complete sense. And if you're on the outside, this doesn't make any sense at all. Like how would you kind of explain it to somebody like that might think what's going on here?

Lorie Stefanelli 4:45

Yeah, I think to explain it to someone from the outside. Like I always say like, Oh, if they're from like Europe or you know, a different country, because this is truly an American thing. And I think just to explain to somebody about what it means to be in a sorority or what it takes to be in a sorority, it's, it's really just young women, like if you go back and think about it, in the early years of on college campuses in the late 1800s, early 1900s, going to college for a woman was a very new thing. And so and there weren't a lot of women on campus to begin with. So they had to create their own groups, in order for them to feel supported. And they were kind of like the first feminist groups on campus back in the day. Over the years, it's kind of morphed into something else. So if you look back at like, the 50s, and 60s, it was very much like, Oh, she's cute, like, you know, let's, let's have her join our sorority, it was very, I guess, a little shallow, if you will, because it was just more of like a social club. It was a social organization. You know, when my mom was in her sorority in the 60s, it was very much about, you know, going to school and getting your Mrs. degree and finding a husband. And I think people now still think of it in that terms. But y'all, it is in our Dear Lord 2023, year 2023, like we've evolved, right? So I think in the 80s, it became very like passe, like, nobody really wanted to join one and a little bit into the 90s, as well. But I think with social media, it's really kind of picked back up in popularity. But sororities in general have also picked up on like, hey, we need to evolve in order to stay current, and to keep our traditions alive. So now you see that women are joining sororities, for a lot of different reasons. It's the connections you'll make during and after college. It's job opportunities. It's, like I said, scholarship opportunities, it's ways to network and connect with people. You know, like I said, I work for Warner Brothers discovery, we have an internship program here. So one of the things that I let my girls know is like, if you're ever interested, we have an internship program for you waiting for the summer. So I think it's an evolved into so much more than what it used to be back in the 50s and 60s. But definitely, you know, starting to be a little bit more aware of like, what the reputation can be, because I think a lot of people still think of sororities as being women who want to find a husband, women who were just there to look pretty and like, you know, whatever. But I think it's explaining to someone who just doesn't know what this is. It's just, it's a social group. It's a support system for young women when they're away from their families. And, you know, college for the first time, it's, it's really just a support system.

Nick VinZant 7:41

Looking at kind of the South, that seems to be the biggest area for sororities and fraternities on a scale of like, one to 10 How important is this for somebody coming into college? Is this like, no big deal? Or is this like, my life is over if I don't get into where I want?

Lorie Stefanelli 7:59

I guess it all depends on the person. But I think if you're going to school, like a big SEC school, Alabama, you know, Auburn, Georgia, it's a big deal. It's a really big deal. I would say it's like an eight or nine

Nick VinZant 8:11

pretty far up there. Right. But it's is everybody kind of getting in to something ultimately, are there people that are just, man, you're out? You're you're at the nerd table.

Lorie Stefanelli 8:23

I mean, okay, so again, going back to the 50s, it used to be like that, like if you, if you had 10 sororities on campus, and you were meant to be with the nerd table, then you were probably not going to get a bid. But now they've made it so that it's more of a mutual selection process, right. So at the end of the day, if you stick with the process, you will end up with a sorority, will it be the sorority you want? Probably not? Or maybe not that? I guess, like all really depends on like the girl, but at the end of the day, if you stick to the process, you will end up with the house.

Nick VinZant 9:01

So as a rush consultant, like, what do you do? And phase two? Like? Yeah,

Lorie Stefanelli 9:07

no, that's a good question. I get asked, like, what could you possibly be teaching these girls in? I am teaching them a lot. Having my background and human resources, allows me to one have sometimes difficult conversations with these girls like sometimes they need to be brought down a little bit, or they need to like, take a step back and look at the big picture of like what this really is. So I have a lot of experience in doing that. But in addition, I help them with the prep of doing it. So that could be the registration process. They now have to make a video, they have to do essay questions. So it's not just like showing up in a cute dress anymore. You know, it's like really walking them through that process. And when you go to a school like Alabama, where they could potentially have 3000 girls going through recruitment in only 18 houses. is available, you know, how do you? How do you stand out? Right? It's in, it's competitive in the sense of like, if there's houses that certain girls want, it's gonna be harder to get into those houses. So how do I help them stick out and shine. And that could be in a lot of different ways, whether it's their social media presence, how they do their video, how they do their essay questions. And their conversations during the party. So I help out with all of that. And then wardrobe also,

Nick VinZant 10:26

what would you say is kind of the biggest thing that people most of your clients like, oh, they need it's usually they it's this thing that they have to work on? What thing? Do they need to work on the most? What thing do people usually like? They kind of got this

Lorie Stefanelli 10:38

since COVID, I think the biggest thing that a lot of young women need help with is talking about themselves. And talking to somebody that they don't know, without having a phone in their hand or whatever. I think ever since COVID, a lot of these kids have been deprived of like social interactions, and, you know, joining clubs and sports and things like that. So they're like really hungry for it. But at the same time, they're anxious about it. So I need to kind of help them figure out like, what is your story? What is your narrative? Like? How do you want to present yourself to these girls? Let's figure out what that is. And like, let's craft that into your conversation. So that when you walk in, you have a little bit of like, you know, a sales pitch. And I find that a lot of young girls hate talking about themselves. You know, it's like that self, you know, deprecation is like already there. So just really trying to get them comfortable, like, you know, saying things about themselves and even introducing themselves to young other young women.

Nick VinZant 11:41

I don't know if this question is going to be a brilliant question or a kind of like, an impossible one to answer. But if you were to design like the perfect sorority rush candidate, what is the hair look like? What's the personality? What's the clothes? What's the shoes? Like? What would you cut? How, what would they look like?

Lorie Stefanelli 11:59

Everyone's so different? I don't know if I can really answer that. Because I feel like mostly it's going to be a girl who has confidence. Honestly, a girl who can pick up very quickly, like anything that I'm teaching her. And then also like, you know, like, if she's not the cutest girl in the world, maybe I'm not gonna change her, I'm not going to make her go dye her hair and get fake eyelashes and tell her to go spend hundreds of dollars on clothes. What I'm going to do is I'm going to say, that's a really cute dress. But what I would do instead of red, why don't we go with blue? Because I saw you were blue the other day, and I thought it was a fantastic color on you. So it's just like more like, you know, smoothing out the rough edges, if you will,

Nick VinZant 12:42

presenting the best version of themselves. Correct. So I only know about this from like what I've seen on social media. And when I look at it, like, everybody kind of looks the same like this house, they all look the same. This house, they all look the same.

Lorie Stefanelli 12:58

That's by design. Why is that that's by design, because it's marketing. They want to market themselves as a certain type of house or sorority on campus. And it's so that they can pull in those same types of girls. And if you notice, it's the same exact sororities from the exact same campuses that always do the videos on social media. There's a lot of other stories that you don't see them doing that because they don't have to, you know,

Nick VinZant 13:27

oh, so really the ones that you see on social media, those are kind of a quote unquote, lower houses.

Lorie Stefanelli 13:34

I think it's not that they're like a lower house. I think it's just that that's what they like to present themselves at, as, and then they like to pull in those same types of girls.

Nick VinZant 13:46

So it's not like this is the blonde house. This is the brunette house, right. And the redhead house kind of stuff.

Lorie Stefanelli 13:52

Yeah, I mean, and honestly, like the girls who are the sororities that do those videos, it's the same girls in the same videos over and over and over. Trust me, like those ones that you see with all the blonde girls that look like Barbie dolls. They have the brunette sitting in the back that you know, that's just not their jam. Like they don't want to be on social media, but they have specific groups of girls within the sororities that you know, are the same ones over and over doing those videos.

Nick VinZant 14:19

I think that throughout this interview, you can kind of tell that I certainly have a certain opinion about it right like and I feel like I've kind of let that influence this a little bit. Does the way that I'm kind of coming off is that a true perception like that kind of like all these people are the same it's Baptist, bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, right, I'm being dramatic. But do I have a good analysis of it? Or am i Are you secretly like this guy's completely wrong and you're missing the point?

Lorie Stefanelli 14:46

I think you are wrong and missing.

Nick VinZant 14:49

Okay. That's fair. That's fair, right? Yeah.

Lorie Stefanelli 14:53

Honestly, like, I know, society and culture wants us to put us in like this. boxes like this is what it means to be in a sorority. And this is what you look like. And this is what you wear. And it's it's some like, again, there are some elements of that, but it's not everything. And I think it's just a matter of what that sorority is putting out there. To see, you know, like, oh, like, because they're gonna attract those same types of girls. So there is an element of it, where it's a little vapid and just kind of like shallow, but it really is so much more than that.

Nick VinZant 15:26

When you look at like, say, the rush as a whole. How can you like sum up? I know this is obviously very different depending on colleges, etc, etc. But how does the whole process kind of basically work?

Lorie Stefanelli 15:38

Yeah, so surprisingly enough, most college campuses are under the umbrella of the National Panhellenic Association. And the National Panhellenic Association basically, is the governing council over all of the national sororities on college campuses. So when you go to a school regardless if you go to, you know, Boise State, Alabama, you know, Arizona State, wherever you're Villanova, it doesn't matter where you're going, the foundation of recruitment is going to be the same, because they all have to adhere to the guidelines process and rules of what Panhellenic sets. So they'll do an orientation day, right? So orientations, the first day of recruitment, you go and get assigned, what they call like a recruitment counselor. Some schools call it like, Ro Kai's, Chi Chi's whatever. And she is a woman who has disaffiliated, from her sorority, for the summer, so that she can help prospective new members find their home. And she's supposed to be a guide, if you will. And so you get assigned to Rho Chi, and that Rho Chi has, let's say, 20 girls under her arm. During recruitment, she is saying, Okay, this is your schedule, this is where you need to go. So orientation is the first day. Now, since COVID, this is a holdover from COVID. Essentially, you have to make a video, and then the sororities make a video. And what happens is, they're watching every single potential new members video, and then you have to watch every single sororities video. So after that orientation day, you're watching these videos, and then you have to go and rank all the sororities in order from your very, very favorite to your least favorite, the sororities do the same thing, but on a much larger scale. Because at Alabama, if you have 13, potential new members and 18, sororities, they're having to do that for 3000 Girls. So they're essentially doing the same thing, but on a much bigger scale. So you'll go in, and you'll say, okay, of the 18 sororities, I saw, these are my top 10. And then everything else, I'll just rank below below that. And then the next day, when you go into the second party day of parties, you'll get an invitation list back of where you got invited. And I think the biggest misconception is that people think like, Oh, I'm gonna cut this sorority because I don't like them. It doesn't work like that, like you're ranking them, not cutting them. And so even if you ranked a sorority dead last, you could still potentially get invited back to their house the next day for a party.

Nick VinZant 18:15

Does that end up though, like where somebody just, it almost seems like a system that could end up with every kind of nobody getting exactly what they want it correct.

Lorie Stefanelli 18:24

Yeah, the point is, is that it's as again, as long as you see it through, because the point of all the parties is for you to meet as many sorority members as possible so that you can make that decision. Like, you might walk in thinking like, oh, my gosh, tried out their Instagram, these girls are so beautiful, I want to be a part of them. They're awesome, blah, blah, blah. And then you get there. And you're like, oh, actually, I'm not quite sure about these girls. And so as you go through all the different parties and meeting all these different women, you'll start to realize like, Oh, now it shifted away from Tridel. And now I'm looking more at Kayo or zeta or PI phi or whatever. And that's kind of the point of it, right is like you want to meet as many people as possible so that you can make the best decision for yourself. And again, they're doing the same thing. If you talk to five girls at pi phi, they're all fake trying to figure out like, oh my gosh, Lori was awesome. She had the best conversations. She was funny. She was, you know, super, like bubbly, bubbly, blah, or they're gonna say like, you know what, she didn't really talk a lot. She didn't ask any questions, she seemed bored. And then that's kind of like how they make their decision of the PNM is moving forward. So you'll go to those houses. And every day, you have to rank and you get less and less invites back because there's a max amount of number that you can get invited back to each party. So because I mean, look, if they wanted to invite 3000 girls back every day, I'm sure they would, but they can't. So and obviously they want to spread it out evenly amongst all the 18 houses. So as you go through the process, you're getting your invite list back. It goes, for example, at Alabama, it goes from 18 to 12 to seven, two. So let's say I go get invited back for philanthropy round, and the max number of invites that I can get back is 12, I probably won't get 12, I'll probably get eight, right. And anything that's not on my invitation list, I'm done. Like, I'm not going back to that house, I'll never think about them. See if I see them again or anything, I got enough focus on who is on my invite list, and go to those parties and you know, have a good time and enjoy myself. And then again, out, you go into sisterhood and the maximum number of invites, you can get a seven, I might not get seven, I might get four. And then going into preference, the max number of invites you can get as to

Nick VinZant 20:44

when when you were going through it like when you went through the process. Did you get to the place that you ultimately wanted? Yes.

Lorie Stefanelli 20:51

Yes. Thank you. It's my number one choice

Nick VinZant 20:57

for Pete does that How often does that happen, though, if you were to put a percentage on it, like 10% of the time somebody gets exactly what

Lorie Stefanelli 21:04

they want? I yeah, I would definitely say it's more than that. I would probably say it's like 60%. Oh, that's

Nick VinZant 21:11

pretty good. Yeah, one person out of 100 actually gets what they want. And the other 99 are at like, loser, loser fi.

Lorie Stefanelli 21:21

Well, it's so funny, because I remember a couple years ago, I was helping this girl at Alabama, she was from Chicago. And she was left with a house that she absolutely loved. And a house that she was just like, there's just not my vibe. And I coached her through that. I'm like, when you go in there, this is what you're going to tell this house that you love. And you're just going to knock it out of the park and like you're just going to be awesome. And she ended up getting that house on her birthday list. So she was really excited.

Nick VinZant 21:50

Success Story, right? Yes,

Lorie Stefanelli 21:51

yes, yes.

Nick VinZant 21:52

So kind of the devil's advocate, I don't know if that's the right question or not, right. But you see this stuff on social media? And let's take that with a grain of salt, right? Do people do people of color to people from less affluent backgrounds? Did they kind of get left out in the process?

Lorie Stefanelli 22:10

I don't think so. I think when you're talking about certain regions of the country, it can seem like that. But I think it's also because there aren't a lot of you know, people of color, women of color, or from different socio economic backgrounds that go through the process. Now, if you go to a big school like Alabama, you probably won't see a lot of those women rushing, but there they are there. It's just not in huge numbers. And I think now at schools, especially in the south, they're starting to realize, again, like we have to evolve in order to stay where we're at, because at the end of the day, sororities nationally, they function as businesses, they're nonprofits, but they run like actual companies. And so they realize like, hey, like, we need to diversify, we need to, you know, in all forms, right, whether it's race, gender, sexuality, socio economic backgrounds, whatever, like, there are programs established to kind of help them kind of break through and get those types of members because they realize that they're only going to be stronger when they have that diversity within their chapter.

Nick VinZant 23:25

Um, as a rush consultant, how's business, I guess, are you in demand?

Lorie Stefanelli 23:29

Yes. The main good. Seems good for that, right. Yes. I'm already booking for spring, so January recruitment?

Nick VinZant 23:39

How far in advance will people like contact and get ready for this?

Lorie Stefanelli 23:43

So if you are rushing in August, which is a fall recruitment, people usually reach out to me in the winter, I would say so prior to even them graduating, and I started working with them in April.

Nick VinZant 23:59

Now, are they reaching out? Are the parents reaching out? There's always like the student reaching out through the parents, right? Like,

Lorie Stefanelli 24:05

a little bit of? Yeah, it's a little bit of both, I would say. It's probably 60% Parents 40% young women.

Nick VinZant 24:13

Okay, do you have to manage the parents a role? I say this because that's, that is the answer. I interviewed. Previous guests was a beauty pageant coach, and he said, like, I manage the parents far more than I manage any of my contestants. Yes. What are the what are the parents like?

Lorie Stefanelli 24:33

Their parents were just like, I'm stepping away. This is her deal. Like I'm just here to like kind of, you know, be the person who's paying. And then there are parents who love to be on every session love to ask questions, love to really be a part of it. I've had one one mom who that was a complete, you know, lesson learned on my end to do certain sessions with just the girl and not let the pair went in and she took over, she would answer questions for the daughter, she would interrupt and tell the daughter like, No, this is how you should answer it. Or she would focus on certain things that weren't that important. And it was just an it was a nightmare to be quite honest.

Nick VinZant 25:15

Yeah, I think there's always that parent, right? From sporting events to everything. There's always that always that parent is there. But it does all of this put a lot of pressure on younger people, right? Like, does this Is this too much pressure? Maybe for somebody to be handling? Or is this like, no, like, this is life now? And you got to get used to it?

Lorie Stefanelli 25:37

Yeah, I think there are some girls, for example, I had one girl earlier this year. And it was too much, you know? And quite honestly, like, it got very overwhelming for her. Because I was like, No, you need to change your picture on social media to this or you need to start following all the sororities on Instagram, you need to put together social resume you need to, and it was just too much for her. Like she just could not handle it. So I was just like, all right, you know, like, if y'all want to step away, I'm perfectly fine with that. If something changes, please let me know I'm more than happy to step back in and help. And then sometimes you get girls are just really lazy and think if they show up and look cute, that they'll be fine. And like, they don't want to listen to what I say. And I'm like, your parents pay good money to have me help you. So let me help you, you know, and then they'll start to flail, and I'm telling you at the 11th hour, they're like, Oh my God, I need help. And I'm just like,

Nick VinZant 26:34

we've been can't do it. So how much do you charge?

Lorie Stefanelli 26:39

I just would rather not say okay, um, it's not, it's not pricey, but what I will say is that I do offer, like discounts for military. You know, if your parent was like a police officer or anything like that, you know, my father in law's a retired New York city cop. So like, I understand, like, you know, having a family member who is police officer, or firefighter or military, girls who are full rights, got academic scholars, if they can't afford the services, I'll help them out. I had this one girl who, who was going to school at Alabama and rushing, she really wanted to do it. And her parents were just like, you're responsible for paying, she took two jobs. And to help kind of like pay for my services. One of them was at J Crew, so she could use her discount for the clothes and stuff like that for rush. And then I found out her dad was really sick. And I found out that she was killing herself to do all of this because she really wanted it. And when I found out her dad was ill because I lost my father in my senior year in college. And the people that were there for me, were my sorority sisters. They were by my side throughout the entire process. And I just knew that for her like this meant something and she really wanted it. So I just stopped charging her.

Nick VinZant 27:59

Can you make a living as a full time brush consultant? Like, is this industry big enough that you could do this full time? And be comfortable?

Lorie Stefanelli 28:07

Yes. Yeah, well, and I live in New York City.

Nick VinZant 28:13

But is that because it's that in demand? Or because there's not really that many people who do it?

Lorie Stefanelli 28:19

Um, a little bit of both. I will say that, you know, I was in the documentary Bama rush. And I would say most of my clients actually come from tick tock, but what I will say is ever since that documentary came out, everyone's rush consultant, everyone is. Yeah, that's how it works. Right? I've been doing this for 10 years.

Nick VinZant 28:41

Okay, now, is there the opposite of not the opposite of a rush consultant. But is there fraternity consultants?

Lorie Stefanelli 28:47

I don't know. Actually, I've never come across one. There. They're just their processes. So different. It's like, there's this more like, Dude, can you get hot chicks? And you know, to our parties, it's like that kind of thing. Like, how many beers Can you drink? You know, it's like, it's just so different.

Nick VinZant 29:05

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, bring it biggest mistake most people make.

Lorie Stefanelli 29:11

Not coming in prepared, you know, just showing up and winging it. And not having good conversations. I think another big mistake is their social media presence. Like, look, I was 18 I grew up in El Paso, Texas on the border. I started going over to Mexico, you know, when I was like, 15, like I get it kids drink. You know, biggest mistake is having social media pictures where it's, you know, lip synching to dirty lyrics or, you know, having red solo cups or, you know, whatever, you know, a white claw or anything like that in their social media, because sororities don't want to see that. And I think a lot of girls think sororities do want to see that.

Nick VinZant 29:54

Yeah, that's jumps out of me, right? Because that's, it's like they don't want to see the thing that call Just kind of secretly all about, yeah. Hardest sorority to get into.

Lorie Stefanelli 30:04

It's it varies on by campus to be honest because like I was a Chi Omega, but a Chi Omega from my school would have been completely different from like Iowa or Northwestern or you know, whatever. Like, I'm currently involved in the New York City Chi Omega Alumni Association here. And we have Chi Omega is from all over the country, and everyone is just so different

Nick VinZant 30:29

school where sorority is everything, like what schools would you say? Like, oh, it is everything at these schools.

Lorie Stefanelli 30:37

Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, Ole mess, University of Florida. UNC. I'm trying to think where else? It used to be Texas. And it's not it's not a huge thing anymore, because like the student population is so diverse now. Indiana, oddly enough.

Nick VinZant 31:01

Why is it it why is it seems to be confined almost exclusively to the south

Lorie Stefanelli 31:04

tradition. I think for the most part, like having that tradition, whether it's in football pageants, you know, a lot of the women who went to school down there end up staying down there, because they're from the area, they're from the region. So they stay down there. And their mothers were probably in sororities, and their mothers mothers were probably in sorority. So it's this line of tradition that continues. And I don't want to sound mean or anything. But you know, if this is what you want to do, this is fine. But a lot of them may not pursue a career. So they, you know, they're in junior league, or, you know, anything like that, where they're getting involved in kind of like another sorority, if you will. And that just kind of continues, and they're a part of it, which is great. Like, that's fine. But then there are areas where, like, let's say, the east coast, where you won't find a lot of sorority alums in this area, it's really hard to actually define them. You know, if they're married and have kids and they live in the suburbs, or wherever. It's harder to find alums living in that area than in the South.

Nick VinZant 32:18

This one just says, how much of this is about the boys? No,

Lorie Stefanelli 32:23

none of it. Like so for example, you are not allowed to talk about boys during recruitment process. You're not going out to frat parties after the party, you have to rush parties. You're not doing any of that because it's not allowed. And so they want to make it truly about this sisterhood. So if you're on campus, going through recruitment, in some frat is throwing a rager. You PMS are not allowed to go. potential new member Yes, sorry. Potentially members. Yeah, they're not allowed to go. Then you don't talk about boys. You don't talk about, you know, who do you mix with or anything like that? That's just considered like, in poor taste, because again, they want to focus on the sisterhood.

Nick VinZant 33:04

Oh, this was kind of interesting, biggest stereotype that isn't true,

Lorie Stefanelli 33:07

that we're all dumb. And that we're only there to party.

Nick VinZant 33:13

Do you think that that some of that comes from people from the outside kind of looking at it with a certain mindset?

Lorie Stefanelli 33:20

Yes, I think it comes from like movies and television. Because if you think about it, if you see sorority's on TV, like the best movie that I can think of that actually is like one of my favorite movies is The House Bunny. And, you know, she's like the Playboy Bunny that becomes like the house mom of the sorority. And they're like the nerdy sorority, but she like makes them cool and hot or whatever. But that's a stereotype, right? Like, they're, it's not a stereotype of the beautiful girls, it's a stereotype of like, the bad or the loser sorority, but like they have the mean girl sorority that terrorizes them. But if you think about it, like no national sorority ever lends their name out to any movies, books, television series. And there's a reason for that, because I feel like TV and in movies really take that stereotype and run with it and make it so like, just gross, I guess. And I think at the end of the day, like they're just trying to protect their reputations.

Nick VinZant 34:24

Yeah, and I think that you could see it in kind of my line of questioning necessarily is that movies and TV and media puts it into a category. And then no matter how hard anybody tries, it's but it's already in this category.

Lorie Stefanelli 34:36

Yeah. And honestly, I think like the National sororities, they're like, that's fine. If you want to think of us like that, go for it. But like, we're not like that. And that's why they don't lend their names out.

Nick VinZant 34:44

How will this impact my life moving forward? Why should I join a sorority at this age? How will this benefit me later in life? Basically,

Lorie Stefanelli 34:56

I can't even begin to tell you how many doors have opened for me, being a part of my sorority. I think that after you graduate, you can do what you want with it. A lot of girls are like, peace out, I'm done, like, you know, like moving on to the next chapter in my life. And there are a lot of girls who are like, this helped me in so many ways, or this was such a great experience for me that when I move and find my career outside of college, like, I'll join the Alumni Association, or I'll go to different events that they hold in my city. And it just only connects you to other people. Example, in New York City, I've met so many wonderful women who are in different, you know, careers and different stages of their life. But I learned so much more from people from all over the country that I've met here in New York, when I lived in Chicago, same thing, every single girl that I'm really good friends with was a part of my sorority, but from a different campus. And I get to learn about people and you know, how they grew up, or what their college experience was, like, because it's all different, you know, depending on where you're at. But I think honestly, like, it's just the connections, the networking, the opportunities, whether it's in your career, or you know, anything like that, it can help you if you want, you can basically work it to your advantage.

Nick VinZant 36:20

What do you really think of all the videos on Tiktok?

Lorie Stefanelli 36:24

Um, you know, they're cute, they're, they're, I think they're harmless. I think what gets what gets a lot of these girls not I don't want to say in trouble, but um, I think for a lot of sororities, they don't enjoy because ever since 2021, when all these tick tock videos were going viral, which was outpacing the Olympics during that time, which I thought was funny. I think when that started to happen, and then the trend caught on last year, and now this year, sororities are thinking like, well, these girls aren't serious, they only want clout, or they want to get famous. And I think it's a detriment to those potential new members. But I think they're cute, like I like it's interesting to kind of see like, Oh, like this girl put this outfit together or whatever. And now you're seeing girls of different ethnicities, different, you know, various different backgrounds. You know, you had grant Sykes last year who, I guess I don't, I'm not keeping up with him or following him, but at the time he are they non binary? So, you know, it's like, really interesting to kind of see all of that, but I personally think they're cute, but I can understand why sororities wouldn't want them to do that.

Nick VinZant 37:37

What do you think that it is about, like people from the outside that kind of why do you think they're so fascinated by it? Because

Lorie Stefanelli 37:44

everything is a secret, and everything is, you know, kept, you know, only between, like this small group of people. And I think when you have that, like, you know, that secrecy or whatever, I think a lot of people are like, what are you keeping a secret? You know, like, everyone loves to hear a good secret, right? So I think it's just like, well, what are you hiding? You know, like, there must be something there. I think that's why people get fascinated with it. Because at the end of the day, behind closed doors, they have no idea what's going on. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 38:13

could see that right, because you see this stuff. And you're like, well, if they're doing this in public, what are they really doing? You know, what's really going on? Yeah, is there usually a big secret behind closed doors or any kind of like, amounts to you go behind the secret curtain? And it's the secret sauce is just amazing catch up kind of thing?

Lorie Stefanelli 38:33

Um, yeah, it's so this is really funny. At the end of the day, most sororities like they have an initiation, right, like at the end of your, your new member program, or pledge ship when I was in the 90s. That's what we called it. But at the end of the day, a lot of the initiations are like relatively the same. Yeah. And so with that being said, like, I think if you did look in you would see like this beautiful house, with these lovely girls inside. And at the end of the day, it's just a big meeting, right? you'd meet every week and you have your pledge meeting and you have your you know, actives meeting and then you guys are discussing like, okay, Homecoming is coming up, we're gonna pair up. I mean, it's really not a lot of you know, anything. It's just really awesome people getting together and having fun on college campuses.

Nick VinZant 39:23

That's really all the questions I guys anything that you think that we missed? How can people get a hold of you all that kind of stuff?

Lorie Stefanelli 39:28

Yeah, so my website is Greek chic. nyc.com I'm on tick tock, Greek chic NYC as well. And yeah, I mean, other than, you know, I'm really, I love doing what I do. And I love helping girls reach their full potential while still figuring out who they are. And I think I help out with that a lot. So I'm part therapist part cool aunt part, you know, ballbreaker. So, yeah,

Nick VinZant 39:59

I want to Thanks, Lori, so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on tick tock threads, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description. Quick reminder, the YouTube version of this episode will be live on July 20, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of his show. Have you ever been a part of a secret club?

John Shull 40:35

No, but I always wish you ever seen the movie The skulls?

Nick VinZant 40:39

Yeah, the original one right with the guy Paul Walker, the original one.

John Shull 40:44

I remember Josh Jackson. I don't remember Paul Walker. But I'm sure always

Nick VinZant 40:48

wait is Josh Jackson, the guy that I think is Topher Grace.

John Shull 40:54

I'm gonna guess probably yes.

Nick VinZant 40:55

There's always those actors of a certain age that you can't exactly remember who which one is like I always got Kurt Russell and Patrick Swayze confused

John Shull 41:03

Jesus. Okay. Well, that I that I don't forgive you for but Topher Grace, and anybody else that you mentioned prior to Kurt Russell, and Patrick Swayze, I'm okay with.

Nick VinZant 41:14

Okay. So go on about you always wanted to be a part of the skulls?

John Shull 41:18

Yeah, I just, you know, growing up, I mean, it was I 1516 or something, when that movie came out, I always thought it'd be cool to be a member of a secret society or something. And then you get older, and you actually kind of realize that they're kind of lame, really.

Nick VinZant 41:35

I think that some of them can probably have really good connections. But those are probably the ones that we've never really heard about, or don't really know very much about. If you kind of know about it, it's probably not that great of a secret.

John Shull 41:48

Like, what's that? The book or the movies with Tom Hanks? The Davinci Code, like the Illuminati and stuff, like, if those are real, that's badass.

Nick VinZant 41:59

Yeah, I think that life is really much more simpler than that. I don't really think that there is a big grand conspiracy or secret groups that are controlling the world. I think generally, when that stuff happens, it's usually playing right in front of you. And we just don't pay any attention to it.

John Shull 42:14

Isn't that how we live our lives? We don't realize what's right in front of us, Nick, we don't realize what's right there.

Nick VinZant 42:19

What we're always looking for something, some new danger, some new trend, but the reality is usually directly in front of us, right? Like it's not going to be some secretive thing that gets you it's going to be a car. Right?

John Shull 42:30

Speaking of danger, I have to tell you, we can talk about it now or we can talk about it after the segment. But something happened in my basement yet again, during ping pong.

Nick VinZant 42:45

What is it? Like at some point, like we gotta hear another basement story.

John Shull 42:49

I mean, it's becoming regular. I had a guy go through my wall. I've had people scuff up the ceiling, hitting it with ping pong paddles. This one's This one's pretty good, though. Okay, all right. Let's hear so one of the guy who one of the guys whose plays is he's like six foot four. He's a tall lanky guy. And I have some floating shells with probably when I'm looking at him probably about 30 glasses on them.

Nick VinZant 43:15

Yeah, dude. Like, I'm just gonna go ahead and jump into this right at this point right now, right? Like, there's a reason that everybody puts a ping pong table in the garage, not in their basement. I mean, you might write like, let's have a, let's have a bullfighting ring. Where are you going to put it basement. It's a bad idea. Okay, there's things go in certain places. And when you try to buck the system, this is what happens to you. And the fact that you haven't learned your lesson is mind boggling to me.

John Shull 43:38

You know me for how long now? I'm never going to learn my lesson. Never.

Nick VinZant 43:43

Why is that though? Like, why don't? Why don't you learn?

John Shull 43:47

Because you know what? Someday, I'm going to I'm going to wind up on top and I'm going to be able to flip off everything else

Nick VinZant 43:55

as that happened in any avenue of your life yet?

John Shull 43:59

No, not even close. All right,

Nick VinZant 44:01

well, just keep trying. All right. All right, finish the story about what happened. I'm sure the glasses broke. Somebody's got something that it's gonna cost you how much money

John Shull 44:10

it will cost nothing. But yes, he raised his arm and knocked over the shelf and about 10 glasses broke. And it was could have been way worse than it was. I mean, there were people standing in the vicinity of the glasses, but luckily, none of them had anybody. I've never really

Nick VinZant 44:27

understood this thing could have been way worse. Like everything could have been way worse. Things could always be worse. It's funny

John Shull 44:33

you say that because I actually agree with you everything. Somebody could have died and that's pretty bad. Right? finality is kind of what the worst I would think.

Nick VinZant 44:44

Do you want to be in a secret club someday though? Do you want to get into a secret club? Did you ever think of joining a fraternity?

John Shull 44:53

I did but so I went to a smaller college. But oddly enough, it was about 3000 Students There was like 14 frats and sororities and I got blackballed from one which meant I was blackballed from all of them because it was such a small campus

Nick VinZant 45:09

so how did you get blackballed?

John Shull 45:12

I mean, I, I guess it's long enough ago, right? I can I can kind of hint at the story. But it was during rush, you know, when when you're when you're going through all the initiations and whatever. And one of my friends, who was already in the fraternity was basically asking me to do something. And I said, No, I'm not doing that. And then he proceeded to, like try to have a power trip over me and I basically threatened to beat him within within an inch of his life. And they kicked me out and then I remember like, the next year, I was thinking about going to another fraternity and they were like, No, man, you're you're you're blackballed from the, from the society from the fraternal society here.

Nick VinZant 45:48

So you were on the list?

John Shull 45:51

I guess I'm I mean, it never stopped me from going to general parties at these

Nick VinZant 45:54

places. It just couldn't. You just couldn't get in. It just couldn't get

John Shull 45:58

in. Yeah. So. But you know what? Looking back on it. I'm actually kind of in Listen, I need to say this, because I feel like I come I'm coming across as kind of a douche right now. If you're in if you're in a fraternity or sorority, great, if that's what you want. I'm all for it. But looking back on it, I'm glad I never joined one because I don't think it would have been it wouldn't have benefited me at all.

Nick VinZant 46:19

I don't know if that's one of those decisions that if you join or you don't join, I don't think that anybody really regrets it at the end of the day, right? Oh, I wish I would have been in one or like, Oh, I wish I wasn't with anyone. I think that's one of those decisions that looking back on it seems like a major point of your life, but afterwards you just kind of like but not a big deal.

John Shull 46:37

Yeah, I mean, I do think when you go to larger institutions like the alumni base for some of those are, you know, it matters right like the skulls were. Some of them have millionaires who are alumni alumnus and they help out but I don't think that's most people's cases. But yes, if someone was to come to me with like some skeleton key tomorrow and was like, go and lock this door in Moulin Rouge it or whatever, with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, which is not the right movie. I don't even remember what movie it was, but remember the movie with them? Or like they're in some secret society or something new?

Nick VinZant 47:12

Don't think it's Moulin Rouge?

John Shull 47:16

Eyes wide shots? Yes, you got it.

Nick VinZant 47:18

I've never seen that movie. I just seems like the kind of movie that's like one of those titles that could be anything like, well, what's that about?

John Shull 47:24

I think I would just do it out of pure curiosity. Like, I wouldn't want to really be like, I don't want to commit. But like, I would just want to go through the paces just to see what it's like.

Nick VinZant 47:33

I feel the same way I feel about horror movies. I don't want to see him. But I just kind of want to know the plot, like what happens. And then that's it. But you were a part of a secret club, you were a part of a secret club of all the people who were blackballed from every place on campus. That's got to be a secretive Club.

John Shull 47:50

Well, this might actually be the first time this has ever come out. So publicly. So that's yeah, it's, I don't think they want it to get out and be known. Because I think, you know, they're, essentially there are a business, right? They don't want people to think that can happen. They want everyone to you know, come and rush and think they have a chance. They don't want people to know that like, hey, we can. It's our house our rules, you know?

Nick VinZant 48:14

Yeah, I think dude, I think everybody's knows that. I don't think that that's like, well, you're not going to expose the truth that some people aren't able to get into the fraternity or sorority their

John Shull 48:22

little 19 year old Johnny didn't give a shit. All right. He was still getting his alcohol somewhere and still partying at some point. So

Nick VinZant 48:29

oh, that's that's good. It seems to have worked out for you. And now it's just in your basement breaking glasses. Okay. And walls by are these commemorative glasses? Are they easily replaceable glasses?

John Shull 48:41

They are thankful. Thankfully enough. They are replaceable glasses, because there was one glass I did not want to break into didn't so do you? Do

Nick VinZant 48:50

you have a question?

John Shull 48:51

Do you have a special glass? Do you have like a glass that? If it broke, you'd be upset?

Nick VinZant 48:55

No, it's a glass.

John Shull 48:57

I figured you say that.

Nick VinZant 48:58

You can just get another one man. The only thing I say is the only special glasses that I have are the glasses that look like they're glass but are actually plastic. I can't understand that. Right? Like, oh, that's a nice glass. Can you tell the difference? Like all? No way. Pour it out of there. Try it in this one. Now it's going to taste better.

John Shull 49:20

Also, I think I feel the need to have to call you out on something real fast.

Nick VinZant 49:24

Okay, okay. Okay.

John Shull 49:26

You know what's coming? I don't you give me constant shit for being a fairweather sports fan. But what did you do this past weekend?

Nick VinZant 49:38

I went to your soccer games. I had free tickets. Like you're not going to use free tickets. Is this the gist of your argument? Like, oh, you're a fair weather fan because you got something for free and then used it?

John Shull 49:50

No, but I can tell you that if I got free tickets to something that I had no interest in. I wouldn't go

Nick VinZant 49:55

even if it was the first time and you've never been to one before. So he's like, Hey, John. I got free tickets to rodeo, you want to go to a rodeo? You're gonna be like, No, you're gonna be the kind of guy that doesn't want to experience new things in life. Just want to stay in your little bubble.

John Shull 50:06

I mean, at this point in my life, probably but no, I want to stay home. rodeos can be fun. I'm just saying all the shit you give me specifically about soccer. And here you are going to a semi pro hometown team like I first off, I'm proud of you.

Nick VinZant 50:24

I support my community and I'm not going to turn down free tickets. And do you think that I really didn't go there and get some Dippin Dots? Because I love Dippin Dots. And it's like across the street from my house, your whole argument is just it's not a good one, right? Like, oh, you're hypocritical because you took three tickets and went and sat there and did nothing. I didn't even watch the game. Don't even know who won. But you know what I did do at a good time with my family. I would say

John Shull 50:49

that you're gonna bring your family into it make me feel like a dick.

Nick VinZant 50:52

Right? Well, well, shoe fits. Okay. If you can

John Shull 50:57

bench more than me, it's probably smaller. All right, let's give some shout outs Joe Smoocher. Antonio Cordova. Do you think people

Nick VinZant 51:05

call him Slow Joe? Joe Sluiter, Slow Joe.

John Shull 51:11

Cole, Alexander. George Cryer? Stanley, right.

Nick VinZant 51:17

Stanley, not a name that you hear a lot, but a solid name. Stan Stanley. That's it. That's a 70 year olds name right there. Who's that? Stanley, everybody knows who Stanley

John Shull 51:32

Andrew craft, Noah Spencer, Nick Adams, Trey Sanders. And we're going to end with Glenn Roberts. Because I like I realized when I was going through doing some some names here, I like Glenn. I like a good Glenn.

Nick VinZant 51:50

Not enough Glenn's in the world. I agree with you. Glenn is a solid name that should be whatever popularity it is in it should be moved up to the next year, no higher just the next year.

John Shull 52:01

Also, I feel like I need to give a shout out to our community of people listen to us, because I've been doing these shout outs now for I don't know how long at least three years. And I was going back I send Nick an email every every week with a shout out list. And I just randomly probably went through about a dozen, just to see if there was by chance that I had duplicated any names. I'm quite I'm quite certain I haven't duplicated names ever on these top 10 lists, which is an awesome thing to say. But also it just you know, thank you to everybody that likes our social media or comments or whatever. It's It's good to see makes us feel good.

Nick VinZant 52:39

Yeah, I mean, it's generally nice, right? Like it's, it's, it's nice to know that somebody else appreciates the work that you put into it. Right? It's a good feeling like we really appreciate it. Whenever somebody says something, even if somebody says something negative. I'm still like, oh, well, thanks for listening. Like that's kind of a new perspective. I'm always interested in what people have to say.

John Shull 52:57

It's usually against my opinions as people who are angry towards Yeah,

Nick VinZant 53:01

there seems to be a lot of that. But I love a good John wrong. Remember, if you see something that John says and you want to comment just put wrong. And he throws himself into a tizzy about it.

John Shull 53:12

I don't I just I've learned to kind of not get so emotional when people say mean things about me. So it's fine. Did

Nick VinZant 53:20

you just kind of don't worry about it. I think it's fascinating. I think it's a great time to hear what people really think I love hearing what somebody really thinks. Like honesty, no matter what the what the result is.

John Shull 53:31

It's better to be honest and honest ape, right? Yeah, sure. All right. Let's play some factor. Oh, we're

Nick VinZant 53:41

doing this again. Two weeks in a row. Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

John Shull 53:44

I want to see if you can go for for for again, part of the reason why I didn't nix the segment as I kind of want to I want to keep going till you don't get 50% Okay, because I have to be honest and Nick has no idea what I'm about to ask him he just randomly says backer fiction so let's start off with this one first. A factor fiction a penny dropped from the top of the Empire State Building can kill you

Nick VinZant 54:11

well, it can only accelerate to a certain amount of to a certain speed and I would actually probably say no it wouldn't because it would probably get moved all over the place.

John Shull 54:21

God dance bar for five

Nick VinZant 54:24

well the wind man right like you have terminal velocity it doesn't matter how much farther it is like something reaches terminal velocity and it's not going to go any faster than that.

John Shull 54:33

Wow. Well, okay, so on Mythbusters fantastic show if you've never seen it by the way for everybody out there, especially can also canceled I believe, cancelled, but it was a fan. Listen, all you young people out there, give it give it a give it a chance. scientists determined that a penny traveling at terminal velocity cannot penetrate concrete or asphalt. It would not cause serious damage to a person and even at the speed of sound. I would still not damage flash. At most, it would sting a little and maybe leave a small or minor welt.

Nick VinZant 55:08

You're gonna tell me that a penny, which is a piece of metal at the end of the day going 800 miles an hour isn't going to do anything to you. That part I'm like, oh, oh, wait, I made it here.

John Shull 55:21

That's I mean, yeah, I didn't believe it. That's why I asked you and you got to correct it apparently. is fiction. Okay. All right. Let's see here. Factor fiction. There is an a, an alien abduction insurance policy that you can purchase.

Nick VinZant 55:40

Yes. That is fact is absolutely true.

John Shull 55:44

Wow. Okay. Well, you said that with confidence. So before I give the reasoning. How do you know that or why are you so confident in saying that it's true? Because I have it. Get the fuck out of here.

Nick VinZant 55:58

Yeah, dude, do you think I have alien abduction insurance?

John Shull 56:00

Yes. How much these a lot of people have strange shit. And it would not surprise me if people out there right now are like, Yeah, I have it. But for you to say that you are that aware of it surprises me because I didn't even think it was a thing.

Nick VinZant 56:17

I mean, I've like I don't remember how I've seen it. But I've seen like an article on alien abduction insurance. It's a real thing. It's the kind of thing that if you're ever like scrolling through social media and you see an advertisement or something for alien abduction insurance, like that's gonna stand out to you. You're gonna notice that

John Shull 56:34

be like one of our former colleagues that now does infomercials. I could see him. Okay, all right. No, six for

Nick VinZant 56:40

six. Maybe jinx myself now jinx myself. I just I just got cocky a second ago. So here comes the end of it.

John Shull 56:46

No, I don't know. I think I think you're kind of figuring it out. But here we go. Is there such a thing? Called a Walton? Which would be a mixture of a whale and a dolphin?

Nick VinZant 57:02

Oh, that one? Yeah, probably. No. Yeah, I would think that there probably is something

John Shull 57:10

so you go in fact or fiction?

Nick VinZant 57:15

Is there such a thing as a wall? Yeah. No, the interspecies can't interbreed like that. And they're different species. So I would say no.

John Shull 57:25

You definitely Jinx yourself.

Nick VinZant 57:27

It I did it. Ah, what is it? It's a mix of a what know what

John Shull 57:31

1985 A bottlenose dolphin and a false killer whale produced a baby named what's

Nick VinZant 57:39

a false killer whale? If it's not really a whale, then it's not a wall Finn. I

John Shull 57:45

will have to I told you I research department. They they're just going on vacation for months. I have no idea. But they these two animals created. I'm not gonna say the name key Kamalu.

Nick VinZant 57:58

They're members of the dolphin family. I'm correct. There's no such thing as a Wolfin because it's just two dolphins. false killer whales are large members of the dolphin family. It's just another dolphin.

John Shull 58:12

Hmm, we may have to put that one up for I don't

Nick VinZant 58:15

think that we do. I think that that's pretty much just right. In fact, it's a member of the dolphin family. So it is a dolphin. It is not a whale. species cannot interbreed, right. You can't mix a dog and a cat. They're different species.

John Shull 58:28

I think we're able to take this one does some social media platform because I

Nick VinZant 58:34

think the facts I think the facts speak for themselves. In a whale. It's a dolphin.

John Shull 58:39

We'll say that that one's not applicable at the moment. We'll keep your your you're staying 100%

Nick VinZant 58:45

staying 100%. All right here number four in the facts wrong as usual.

John Shull 58:52

Hair and fingernails continue to grow after death. Yes. That is not true.

Nick VinZant 59:00

Well, I mean, why would they kind of there's something else that happens, right? Like you have the appearance of it.

John Shull 59:06

So apparently, the BBC did an in depth investigation on this question and found that nerve cells die within three to seven minutes after death, proving that everything stops growing. Hmm. However, the skin around the hair and fingernails retracts out after death due to dehydration, which makes them appear longer.

Nick VinZant 59:33

I have to raise contention with both of those last questions because I feel like they were slightly trick questions. I so they don't grow but they appear to grow.

John Shull 59:43

Two out of three ain't bad meatloaf even said it.

Nick VinZant 59:47

Is he died didn't he? He

John Shull 59:49

did die. I've I've never had proper meatloaf. I've always had just like hamburger mixed up with some onions with some ketchup on top. I've never had like a prop meatloaf.

Nick VinZant 1:00:00

What is a proper meatloaf? Because that sounds like meatloaf to me. And yet,

John Shull 1:00:05

I every time I see meatloaf, there's like a tomato puree on top with like, seasoned ground beef and onions and maybe some cheese and

Nick VinZant 1:00:17

I don't know, man. I mean, I think that meatloaf, the all that really defines what meatloaf is the shape of it. Otherwise, it's just a change in the recipe like does it come in? Like what does it look like a loaf of bread that it's meatloaf? Doesn't matter what it is.

John Shull 1:00:31

There's only one Meat Loaf to me. And he died in what year?

Nick VinZant 1:00:36

2021?

John Shull 1:00:39

I would have said 2020 He died in 2022.

Nick VinZant 1:00:42

No offense to meatloaf, but like, Okay, was it really ever that I was more known for his name than any of his music?

John Shull 1:00:49

Oh, no, come on, man. He is a pioneer. If you've ever seen me live play a concert. And I hope there's somebody out there listening to this that as the dude would play for five hours. He go through like seven shirts of sweat alone.

Nick VinZant 1:01:04

I've never understood that, right? Like, if you were a musician, you still want to be playing those same songs like think about how many times I'm trying to think of a really popular band that's been around for a long time. They think of how many times the Rolling Stones have played a song. Like Sympathy for the Devil. They probably played that 1000 times. Probably more than that. Yeah.

John Shull 1:01:26

It's funny you say that because I've kind of gotten to an Eddie money kick recently. And I was listening to an interview where someone asked him a similar question to that. And he says that he doesn't he didn't even like playing his hits. He'd be so sick of it. Yeah, new stuff and different things. But that's not what the audience wants, right? They want your hits. They want what they know.

Nick VinZant 1:01:48

Yeah, that would be weird, right? Like, no matter. That's the thing. I feel like with any musician after, I think any musician really only has like one to two good albums. Like you've got one to two. And then maybe you can get a couple of good songs and your other albums. But otherwise, I think you're kind of out of it. So imagine having like a 50 year career where you've been playing songs that you wrote, 40 years ago, you're still playing that like, then you probably collect your check and you're like, I'm okay with it.

John Shull 1:02:19

Yeah. And you continue to collect the check and you're like, Yeah, I'm alright. This is fine. Yeah, I'm

Nick VinZant 1:02:24

alright with that. Like, I didn't like this song. But I do like the house that he bought.

John Shull 1:02:29

I always wonder like vanilla ice, right? Like, wherever he goes, even if no matter if he tried changing genres or whatever, people were still gonna want him to do Ice Ice Baby, no matter what he ever did in his life. It's the

Nick VinZant 1:02:41

only thing that really they've ever wanted. So he should probably I would think that you probably go from being like anything else. I think when you have that level of fame, you probably go from being like embracing it to being sick of it to trying to claw back into it. You know?

John Shull 1:02:55

And then you're like Britney Spears, and you apparently hit yourself in the face and say that another celebrity did it?

Nick VinZant 1:03:02

I never understood what was happening with that. She's like, I'm just gonna leave. I'm gonna leave all Britney Spears related topics alone. That's my new him. That's like, I'm just like, whatever. Britney. Alright, good job. Good. Do you whatever you're doing.

John Shull 1:03:18

Let's let's move on. Let's, let's go into our top five.

Nick VinZant 1:03:21

I'm not entirely sure what our top five is. I confused myself as I went along with it. But top five sayings. You're glad are gone. What's your number five.

John Shull 1:03:31

I don't know how this is confusing. But. So my number five is Whoop, there it is.

Nick VinZant 1:03:40

You're going to have to do that when again, your network bogged

John Shull 1:03:42

down. What is happening today? It's

Nick VinZant 1:03:46

Detroit brown here in Detroit, right move to real fucking city and you won't have these problems.

John Shull 1:03:50

Obviously, Ballard FC. Alright, so my number five is Whoo.

Nick VinZant 1:03:54

What's Detroit got? What's Detroit got to Detroit even have a sports team anymore that you can call a professional sports team? Because you certainly can't say that about the Detroit Pistons. You certainly can't say that about the Detroit Lions or the Detroit Red Wings. Or Drever. Detroit else does because one of the championships that they're getting zero over the last 1000 years.

John Shull 1:04:13

Are you done?

Nick VinZant 1:04:14

I'm done. And so is Detroit with producing quality sports products.

John Shull 1:04:19

Yeah, watch the Detroit Lions this year.

Nick VinZant 1:04:21

Oh, watch him. I'll we'll watch him not make the playoffs. You want to bet on that? Sure. How much money you want to put on it? Because whatever amount you're comfortable with. I'm comfortable with your $2 $2

John Shull 1:04:36

I mean, I'll go I'll go 100 on it.

Nick VinZant 1:04:39

I'll take that money.

John Shull 1:04:41

Alright, fine. You're You're crazy.

Nick VinZant 1:04:45

Right? Did they make it last year? Because every time that there's the new hot team in football, what happens to the new hot team in football? Oh, wait, all the analysts were

John Shull 1:04:52

wrong? No. Okay, fine. 100 bucks. Anyways, who

Nick VinZant 1:04:56

was who was it last year? Who was it last year because it's the Cowboys. year every year, and it never is.

John Shull 1:05:03

Well, that's different. I never bet on the Cowboys. No, ever.

Nick VinZant 1:05:07

I love the Cowboys. I love it. Nothing. No, everyone should like the Cowboys either because they like the Cowboys, or they really like to if you're a people who like the Cowboys.

John Shull 1:05:17

Alright, my number five sayings, I'm glad are gone. Whoop, there it is.

Nick VinZant 1:05:24

That's an amazing saying that should be brought back. I don't understand what the problem with a whoop, there it is at all.

John Shull 1:05:30

There's a lot. First off the song sucks. Secondly, the saying doesn't really make a lot of sense. Like what is whoop. And where is it? Like, why is it there?

Nick VinZant 1:05:41

It's just not in the culture, man. I gotta not hit. You're not hit. I don't know what it really means. But it meant Whoop, there it is, man. Like fuck, we're gonna have a good time. Like, there it is. That's all you need to know. Like, oh, there it is. Oh, right. That's, that's great. I'm fine with that. Um, my number five is anything along the lines of I did a thing. I hated that saying I did a thing. That was just a way to humble brag without sounding like you are humble bragging. Like, don't try to soften it in. Just do it. I did a thing. No, you got married. You got divorced. Got a new job. You didn't do a thing. You did something specific. You did something just use one credit for it without trying to act like you're just taking credit for it.

John Shull 1:06:38

It was humble bragging before humble bragging was a term.

Nick VinZant 1:06:41

It's the evolved version of humble bragging. That's what it is. Okay, my rant about stepped all over there. But I'm okay with that. I was upset about

John Shull 1:06:49

that. You are I mean, that's your video has been ranting all episode. My number four is what's up player.

Nick VinZant 1:06:58

I'm okay with some settings if they sent now become used ironically. Like bro. I love saying bro.

John Shull 1:07:05

Yeah, I say that. I call everyone, brother. But I don't say what's up player anymore.

Nick VinZant 1:07:11

I don't think you ever really could to be honest with you. We don't fit. We don't fit the demographic that can say that. Well. You can't be a white kid from the suburbs and be like, what's up player? Does it work out?

John Shull 1:07:29

No, unfortunately. Yeah, no.

Nick VinZant 1:07:32

My number four is YOLO. I'm glad YOLO is gone. I always thought it was a stupid saying.

John Shull 1:07:38

I only live I still say it. So I know.

Nick VinZant 1:07:41

I know you do. I know. YOLO YOLO which is usually said before something stupid is about to happen. Like you only live once. Well, you don't have to cut it short. No, you don't have to cut it. You don't have to cut it short. And that's usually YOLO is usually said before that one life gets cut short. Actually got a funny. It's pretty proud of that. Actually.

John Shull 1:08:04

My number three is its darkest just before the dawn.

Nick VinZant 1:08:11

Oh, I think that that's a good life kind of thing. I think that's something that can inspire people a little bit. Right? Like, look, man, you gotta know, it's, it's, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. I think that's kind of a symbol of hope. I don't know why you have a problem with lifting people up.

John Shull 1:08:26

I, I we don't lift people up on this podcast, we bring them down.

Nick VinZant 1:08:31

That's true. That is true. Um, my number three is very broad, but I think also very kind of appropriate at the same time. And my number three is anything that someone over the age of 35 or under the age of 10 says that's a slang term. If someone outside of 15 to 30 is using a slang term, it's run its course, my seven year old came home and said HSAs the other day, which means that HSAs should be now out of our nomenclature. If you're too old or too young to be saying it, it means it's over. Right if you're adapting and 2023 It's over. It's done.

John Shull 1:09:15

What assess mean suspect?

Nick VinZant 1:09:18

Yeah, do okay. I'd you know, I don't know. I don't know. And that's the appropriate response. You shouldn't know if you were saying it at your age. That's not appropriate. It's run its course. Once it reaches mass, critical mass. It shouldn't be over with anything that someone over 35 or under 10 says

John Shull 1:09:40

So my number two is a tie. And I have just the word groovy like yeah, man groovy bro. Groovy this year so groovy. Your groovy and that's dope.

Nick VinZant 1:09:56

Oh, I think that those are making a comeback. I feel differently. I feel like Groovy is along the lines of Cool beans where it doesn't matter what it is. It's always going to be good. Cool beans like grew herbal to Cool beans. Groovy. I like it when I get hit with one of those. Okay cool beans like Oh yeah, that was yeah, it's gonna come back around man all those are going to come back around stupid

John Shull 1:10:19

Cool beans buku beans.

Nick VinZant 1:10:22

My number two is cap. I never really liked cap it was kind of cool for a little bit like it was kind of a cool different thing. But ultimately it's not any more efficient than just saying lying. It's kind of like a cowardly way of like Oh, I'm not gonna call him a liar. I'm just gonna say it's cat. Sam call Him a liar. Like put it out there. Don't give me this fake stuff. Give it to me real just give it to you. I like it anytime I'm getting it.

John Shull 1:10:50

So my my number one is just Jim had saying that their swole love swirl swirl are useful. You want a good school? Like shut the fuck up. Dude. That doesn't even make sense if you think about it.

Nick VinZant 1:11:07

Well, obviously you ever been swole

John Shull 1:11:10

No, you don't want I've been I've been tight. I've been you know, I've been feeling good not swell, bro. And it's always like the people that you would think say it that said

Nick VinZant 1:11:20

I have no problem with swole I find it to be hilarious.

John Shull 1:11:23

Hey, you want to prove to shake Ms. gimmicky school? Like get out of my face?

Nick VinZant 1:11:28

You don't have a soulmate? You gotta get yourself a swallow machine. That's a layer rise. I think that's hilarious. That's my soulmate.

John Shull 1:11:35

If I could find my guy would just drop this mic right now.

Nick VinZant 1:11:39

I think it's hilarious. I love it. I love it.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:41

swill mate, soul mate,

Nick VinZant 1:11:43

jacked and juicy. Like you don't want to get juicy as well. It's

John Shull 1:11:46

actually pretty good. I've never heard soulmate before. That's kind of good

Nick VinZant 1:11:49

soulmates funny soulmate is what saves it. Once you hear about soulmate it saves swirl, because now it's just hilarious. Well,

John Shull 1:11:56

maybe that's okay. All right, fine. Soulmates funny.

Nick VinZant 1:11:59

All right. My number one is anything in the lungs of like my truth. I'm going to tell my truth. I don't think that that just doesn't annoy me. I think that that's a detriment to society, because it implies that there's not such a thing as the truth. I think that that's a detriment to society, it allowed people to kind of dive into their bullshit. I think that's a problem.

John Shull 1:12:19

I mean, have you looked around lately? There's a lot of my truths going on around the

Nick VinZant 1:12:26

world. And I think that that's a big problem is that now people think that just because it's your idea that you that has some validity, know that there's real hard and fast truths in this world. And just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that you're wrong. There's no such thing as my truth. It's just the truth.

John Shull 1:12:41

I'm mean, but my truth can be whatever I want it to be.

Nick VinZant 1:12:47

That's the problem. So then you justify your perceived biases, and you drift farther and farther out into the universe, as opposed to being grounded in reality.

John Shull 1:12:59

You read a lot this episode, you must be angry.

Nick VinZant 1:13:02

I'm becoming an angry man. What do you have in your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:13:06

Let's see what oh, I have a flub the dub?

Nick VinZant 1:13:08

Never heard of that before. What the hell is that?

John Shull 1:13:11

I have no idea. You just never You never used to say flub the dub? dub dub dub dub dub blah, blah, blah. No, no. All right. Not up to Dick. That one was a weird one in high school that I still don't really

Nick VinZant 1:13:22

never heard of these. What are you doing?

John Shull 1:13:25

Have no idea? Like a

Nick VinZant 1:13:27

private school like a Catholic private school where they thought this stuff was cool.

John Shull 1:13:32

No. Who let the dogs out? i Yeah. Money can't buy happiness. I hate saying I hate that saying and I know I think it still might be around, but I had to put it on the honorable mention regardless.

Nick VinZant 1:13:45

Well, money can buy happiness because it makes your life easier, which can make you a lot happier. So I don't like that saying either.

John Shull 1:13:52

If I win Powerball, I'm going to be very happy. I'm gonna make

Nick VinZant 1:13:55

myself pretty fucking happy. Yeah, right. Maybe it doesn't fundamentally change who you are, but it certainly can make your life easier if you have any other ones. That was it. I don't want to go into them but any of those kinds of like semi political phrases that people use that have lost all kinds of meaning. I'll just throw out like fake news woke snowflake like it's just applied to anything that someone doesn't agree to. It doesn't have any meaning anymore whatsoever. Anything that's like a political buzzword. It's just like, oh gosh, stay away from that. Um, speaking I don't know what that means.

John Shull 1:14:37

Well, God willing, we're still doing this podcast next year will be

Nick VinZant 1:14:40

Oh, bae. I always needed my gosh, any any ways to like refer to a significant other than it's like Bay hobby. All of those are awful.

John Shull 1:14:54

I mean, I'm okay with pet names, but Bay is Bay Bay is one of those.

Nick VinZant 1:14:58

What is your vet name again, but to read them again because I remembered it just now what's your pet name again? Do you want to say it? What are you and your wife call each other?

John Shull 1:15:09

I think you should say it.

Nick VinZant 1:15:11

A Bob's a wubs Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance leave us a quick review doesn't have to be a big thing. Just a couple of quick words really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the worst sayings that you're just glad are gone. I do you really wish more people would say cool beans though. I think that needs to make a comeback. And I don't know what John's problem was. Whoomp there it is, is I think he just doesn't get it.

Powerlifting Champion Jennifer Thompson

Jennifer Thompson is now one of the strongest people in the world. But before she started Powerlifting, she had no idea she was even strong. We talk the rising popularity of Powerlifting, the secret to her World Record Bench Press and outlifting the guys at the gym. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Green Flags.

Jennifer Thompson:01:22

Pointless: 52:12

Top 5: 01:12:55

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Interview with Powerlifter Jennifer Thompson

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode powerlifting and green flags,

Jennifer Thompson 0:21

I would say probably low self esteem, I was real nervous and timid. And I found like, the more I was training, the better, I was sort of feeling and I was feeling a little more competent and a little stronger. And we ended up just falling on to a powerlifting competition on our honeymoon, and Venice Beach, California Muscle Beach, they had a benchpress competition. And so once someone is brave enough to, you know, enter a powerlifting meet, they all of a sudden have like this tribe, I think people can be amazingly strong, and the average person just doesn't get it.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is one of the strongest people in the world. This is powerlifting champion Jennifer Thompson. Were you born strong? Or do you feel like you got strong,

Jennifer Thompson 1:25

I was definitely not born strong. I definitely got strong.

Nick VinZant 1:30

What got you into it.

Jennifer Thompson 1:32

I was a runner all through high school. And when I was in college, I was doing like road races. I like to run with my dad. He was a runner. And one of my roommates in college, we just lived in a rental house and we all commuted to school. He was way interested in weightlifting and he actually had a gym in the bottom of our rental house. And so like at four o'clock, every day, all his friends would show up and they would go down and they would play music and they would lift and they would have a great time though, they kept inviting me down to come learn how to lift weights with them. But I was still in a time where like, women didn't really lift weights, they're worried about being bulky, you know, or looking like a man. And I guess I was maybe just a little intimidated by it. But one day, I'm like, Okay, I will go down there, he had kept asking. So I'm like, I'll go down there and I'll give it a go. And so they kind of showed me how to do everything. And I loved it. So I completely stopped running because honestly, I didn't really enjoy it that much. But I wanted to like not gain, gain college weight and stay in shape. And it was kind of something I had in common with my dad. But I started just full on lifting weight. And I learned to love it.

Nick VinZant 2:52

When do you think that like okay, when you went from like enjoying this to really going after it to getting into competitions to doing that kind of stuff.

Jennifer Thompson 3:01

I was yours. Like I just sort of huddled around in it, you know, a workout and then I'd leave it for a while and I'd come back. But I really was enjoying just like the changes in my body, you know, just looking stronger and gaining some muscle. And I was a pretty under confident person I was had, I would say probably low self esteem, I was real nervous and timid. And I found like the more I was training, the better I was sort of feeling and I was feeling a little more competent and a little stronger. And so then I several years into it, I started really getting into a program and sticking with it and lifting with the guys. And then I was catching up to them. Like as far as their weight were going like no longer was I like just doing dumbbells or putting baby weights, you know, on the bar, I was starting to actually put something significant on there. And so I was like I'm getting, I'm getting kind of strong. And this was back, you know, and then the 90s and in the 90s we didn't really have internet and things like that, you know, still very slow there was no YouTube there was no nothing. So I honestly I knew I was getting strong but I couldn't I didn't know where I fit in. I didn't want to be a bodybuilder because that's really kind of what you did with your strong. I read a lot in the muscle fitness magazines had all these workouts and stuff and I really admired the way that women looked but I was not really interested in getting on a stage and posing in a bikini it just was not comfortable with that. And then the other thing they had back then was fitness, where the girls would do all the tumbling and you know it was a fitness competition but I didn't have a gymnastics background or a chilling background. So like that wasn't even really something that I could even entertain and we just had my the one of my roommates they ended up marrying and and we ended up just falling onto a powerlifting competition on our honeymoon and Venice Beach, California Muscle Beach He had a benchpress competition. So I walked up to it, I was looking at it and I started talking to some people like I couldn't do this. And so they just kind of directed me in the right place. Back then there was a magazine called powerlifting, USA. And that's where they lifted listed all the meats coming up. And like you literally would take the entry form out and fill it up, put your check in there and mail it to the meat director. You know, and that's how you entered. And so I think I did my first one and then 1997 or eight, I can't remember. Wow, yeah. And then once I had there, like, I realized, like, I was like, bench pressing the world or the American record, like I had broke all the records my first time out. Like, I had no idea I was that strong,

Nick VinZant 5:47

then okay, but were you breaking the records, because you were just that strong? Or like, the record was the record because nobody was really kind of doing it.

Jennifer Thompson 5:58

I think I like to think it was because I was just I'm gonna go with that one. Yeah, that's

Nick VinZant 6:05

the one I would go with to right now. Like, I'm just really that strong. So when people think of like, right, like, I kind of think of weightlifting and bodybuilding, what what is powerlifting? Like? How would you kind of just how was powerlifting different than weightlifting or other kind of types of exercise

Jennifer Thompson 6:24

was it's just different exercises is the squat bench and deadlift. weightlifting is the SNATCH and the clean and jerk, I kind of think about powerlifting as being more like, I guess the normal person's events, you know, like, if you go into the gym, any weekend warrior, or just someone that loves to train as bench pressing, or squatting, maybe not deadlifting. But if they're just kind of normal exercises, you see do a lot, the squat, or the weight training, the weight lifting, excuse me, though, snatch, and if they injure, that requires like a lot of flexibility, a lot of technique, it's not something that you would just be able to walk up and do, right, as just two very specific exercises. So I mean, it's really the difference between powerlifting weightlifting is the exercises, and then basically at a meet you, you get three opportunities, and each event so for, you always start with the squat, and you get three attempts at the squat to get your, your highest squat path. There's lots of rules. And then you do the bench, same thing event and then the deadlift, and then you take your biggest lift and each one and add them up for the total. And then whoever has the highest total ones, is just feel like it's very basic, normal and easy understand.

Nick VinZant 7:34

Yeah, it's probably like, whoever's the strongest person wins, right? It's, I would imagine it's divided into weight classes and all that kind of stuff. No age groups. Yeah. Now what weight class? Can I Can I ask that question? Right? Okay. Um, what

Jennifer Thompson 7:48

we don't worry about our like weight and our bodies and stuff in powerlifting. We celebrate women's sizes, you know, we always want the thick thighs and the peach but

Nick VinZant 8:00

so what now throughout your career, like what weights have you competed at? Is that the thing that changes over time?

Jennifer Thompson 8:05

Well, it is funny because they have changed the weight classes like multiple times, because I started in nine and I still compete now. So my, and it's all in kilos, because the international sport. So my very first weight class was 60 kilos, which was 132 pounds to compete in that in a while. And then they changed it to 63 kilos, which was 130 8.8 pounds. But I did that for a while. And then just two years ago, they switched him back. So at this point, like going down to 132 was way too low. I put on too much thighs. So now I'm up in the next weight class, which is 140 8.8.

Nick VinZant 8:48

So at that way, what's your squat? What's your most ever like your best squat best? deadlift?

Jennifer Thompson 8:56

is 360. My best bench is 327 and a half. And then my best deadlift is 457.

Nick VinZant 9:04

You can benchpress 327 pounds. Yeah, as the world

Jennifer Thompson 9:08

record.

Nick VinZant 9:13

Holy crap, that's okay. So I'm not super into fitness. Right? But I work out I played sports in high school. I can't do more than 225 I feel pretty strong in a gym doing to 25 like holy crap. It's

Jennifer Thompson 9:28

actually the world record for my weight class. And then like the several above it, it's still the world record for the bigger weight classes. So it's, it's pretty good.

Nick VinZant 9:36

Okay, I don't know how to ask this question, but I have seen some powerlifting stuff where like, what is it a benchpress? Like you would see in the gym, somebody's like, takes it off all the way down all the way back up. Or is there kind of a trick to it?

Jennifer Thompson 9:51

We have to hold it on our chest for one count. You have to take it down wait for them to tell you press and then lock it out. It's like a plot As depress

Nick VinZant 10:01

man, I feel like I'm revealing some of my ignorance here in this, but I can't believe you can do that much like, I wouldn't have not thought somebody that size could physically be able to do that.

Jennifer Thompson 10:11

I get that a lot. And then I get a lot that they assume I'm using performance enhancing drugs. But I'm in a drug tested. A drug tested organization. I've been drug tested. I'm actually I was just drug tested on Saturday, they showed up and said, Okay, pee in this cup.

Nick VinZant 10:31

But have okay, but are you? You're not doing them currently, or you've never done.

Jennifer Thompson 10:35

I've never done them in my entire life. I think I have. My husband likes to keep track of this stuff, because he thinks it's cool if I think I've had over 60 drug tests in my career.

Nick VinZant 10:46

Why? I don't know if this is like, but why not? Right? Like, how come you've never just like, Man, I wonder what I could do if I did this?

Jennifer Thompson 10:53

Well, why don't need it? Well, I don't need it. But I'm also I still like to maintain my femininity. And it's pretty hard to do that. When you're taking performance enhancing drugs. I think they're just not healthy for you. They're bad for you. So I'm very much into my health and eating well. And I just said, I know people do it. And that's fine. That's their choice. There's powerlifting organizations that don't drug test, you know, so you if you're interested in using performance enhancing drugs, you can you know, go do it. But not where I left.

Nick VinZant 11:31

I would just be so tempted to find out like what I would want like, what if I did this, man?

Jennifer Thompson 11:37

Yeah, but you're not a girl? What if I said, What else? I do this, but it would make me start growing boobs? Would you do it?

Nick VinZant 11:44

Yeah, I probably wouldn't do it. Yeah, that's a little bit different.

Jennifer Thompson 11:50

It makes you start having a high voice. And then boobs, and then maybe your penis would shrink up? Would you do performance enhancing drugs to see how much you could live?

Nick VinZant 12:01

I mean, maybe if I could do a lot. Like if I went from like doing 250 to 500? I'd be like, okay, a lot about you. I know it does? Well, I would do it. Because I would be curious of like what I was capable of,

Jennifer Thompson 12:15

I guess I feel like it's different. Because like, powerlifting no one's really making a lot of money at it, right? It's not like the NFL. If you take performance enhancing drugs, and you perform while you're making like huge bank, you know, or something like this, you know, for our meats, like we have prize money at our events and stuff. So you might win a few grand, if you're good, but it's not like you could live off it. So for me, that wouldn't make sense. And it's not everything I am I'm also a teacher, I really it's important for me to set a good example for my students and my own children. And I just don't think that's healthy to do that.

Nick VinZant 12:53

It's not for you. But would you Are you an anomaly in that or to most people tend to kind of side with your side. And it's just the media blows it out of proportion.

Jennifer Thompson 13:03

I honestly think it's probably split, like I left in USA Powerlifting, we drug test a whole lot of the athletes to try to keep it as clean as possible. Right. So I generally think most of the people that lifted my organization are clean. Now, of course, that's not 100%. You know, that's silly. But I do think that I think people can be amazingly strong and the average person just doesn't get it.

Nick VinZant 13:30

Well, that's the thing that I have kind of at least learned from this podcast is that there's levels to things you can be really good at something and then somebody who is exceptional. It's just a whole nother world.

Jennifer Thompson 13:43

Right? Well, I, I have been told that I'm probably the best bench presser and the world ever, and a third female. So I mean, you're comparing yourself to someone that's just exceptionally good.

Nick VinZant 13:58

Now, why are you so good at that?

Jennifer Thompson 14:02

Well, I wasn't Oh, I mean, it's been I didn't just all sudden be able to lift this weight. I've been doing it for 25 years, you know, and I've just been putting on a strength for a very long time. You know, I started off with I think I worked my way up to 215 I think 215 might have been my first competition bench. And then I've just gradually gotten stronger. I think some of it is really good programming we've kind of over the time learned how to do it really well with the right exercises and have been very good at nailing down the technique so that I feel like it's really couldn't get much better than it is now. I think I I like it so you work harder at the things you'd like to think especially as a woman like we're not we don't have strong upper bodies. And so when I first started weight training, it was the thing I put the most gains on, you know, was my upper body because you know, we don't use a lot of chest and biceps in our everyday life, you know, as women. So I think I think those factors all had a lot to do with it.

Nick VinZant 15:07

Yeah. Well, you said that number, I would have honestly thought that that wasn't physically possible for a woman regardless of size.

Jennifer Thompson 15:14

But I mean, it is like the best. But if you look at like the women in my weight class, I mean, they're doing 275.

Nick VinZant 15:22

So it's not super like out.

Jennifer Thompson 15:25

I mean, it's a lot but like the women today now that I think to like their, for powerlifting, women with a winning division is growing gigantic like for so powerlifting itself as a sport is growing in leaps and bounds since COVID. And then the women's side, I would say, like when I first started powerlifting, and like in the late 90s, I would probably would have guessed maybe 25 to 25%, maybe 20 to 25% of it was women, like we couldn't even fill out like a whole, like, what we call a flight is like who you lift with, like, there's 14 people in a flight. And you you compete with those 14 people. And we couldn't even do a whole weight class of 14, you know, at the national level. Where now is we have 100 and each weight class. And we're almost to where we're 5050 Men do women and powerlifting

Nick VinZant 16:22

have women has that been? Is it harder to get women to sign up than men?

Jennifer Thompson 16:27

Not anymore. I think social media has had a huge positive impact. Because, you know, like I said, when I started, a lot of women don't go into the weight room, because they're worried that they're going to look like, you know, the bodybuilders they see or they're gonna lose their femininity, or they're just going to grow gargantuan, you know. And I think now with social media, there's so many of us like posting what we're doing in our bodies, and people are saying, you know, oh, well, I can still do this and still look feminine and still look like a woman like, this is not going to make me start growing hair and weird. isn't, you know, stuff like that. So I think social media has brought it and now we have girls and high school powerlifting. Now, you know, and then we have our, I helped coach for Midland University. So we have the collegiate nationals every year. And, you know, there's 1000 Women competing at the collegiate nationals Do you know, so? You're seeing it more as a sport, you're seeing women get into it earlier in life? So that's just ramping up our number?

Nick VinZant 17:32

Do you think it can get to the point where people can make a living solely off of doing that?

Jennifer Thompson 17:38

Um, I'm not sure. Like, there's people that do like online coaching and stuff like that, or open their own gyms, whatever. So they're able to sort of maintain their, like, an income with that, I think unless our sport gets mainstream, and we pick up like some major sponsors, probably not. It's hard to say, I mean, it's growing so huge right now, like our number, our membership numbers are like off the charts. I'm the State chair for powerlifting in North Carolina here for USA Powerlifting. And we can't have enough competitions, like they fill up within two days, and then we have to start a waitlist. And it's crazy, and we're putting on one every other month, you know, it's just like, we can't almost keep up with the demand. It's been not

Nick VinZant 18:22

is that d is any part of that, like a shift in how people working are working out. Because I feel like before, you know, when I always think of women working out like it's just Alright, go to the elliptical machine.

Jennifer Thompson 18:35

Well, I think there's like just so much more available. Now. Now we have YouTube, you know, so we have resources for people to go to to find out how to do things, people follow, you know, their favorite lifters. So that's good. Now we have online coaching. So if you don't have a coach near you, you can have an online coach to kind of help you get started. But the one thing about powerlifting is we have like an amazing community, like the people are supportive and welcoming and fun to be around. And so once someone is brave enough to, you know, enter a powerlifting meet, they all of a sudden have like this tribe, or this community of people that super supportive and they're all kind of into it for the love of this commonality. And it's the one thing that's kept me in this sport for so long, we've been so many wonderful friends over all the years that we still hang out with we talk about our training, we, you know, throw ideas back and forth, especially the women is there's been a huge increase in women starting in their 40 there which has been so cool like that. I don't know if I sort of relate to that. So I'm gonna be 50 in a couple of weeks here. So I think that generation when they were probably in their 20s like I was, it wasn't as popular but now they see all these women in this or, and are starting to think well, maybe I can do that. And even physicians are starting to recommend, you know, some sort of weight training for bone density and health. So they that we're seeing a huge influx of like what we call our masters, lifters, Masters is 40 and up age group. And so now we have all these women that are entering in their 40s and finding these other women. And then they're just creating these really great relationships and support systems. And it's just thinking fun.

Nick VinZant 20:29

So when you go into a competition, right, like so you have three chances at each lift, is there a strategy to that are you just like, I think this is the most I can do when do that

Jennifer Thompson 20:39

there's a strategy. Usually, like you have your first one you call your opener. And it's kind of a rule of thumb that you would pick a weight that you could do for three reps, because it's like the entry and like, you don't want to ever like start so high, you don't get a lift in, right. And there's rules of performance, like for the squat, you have to squat with your, the crease of your hips has to hit below your knees. So it has to be a fairly deep squat. And there's a couple other little rules. So you have three referees that are judging your lift to determine if it's good or not. So you want to start with a weight that you can easily handle so that you're looking good to the referees, and you're getting like a number on the scoreboard. And then usually your second lift is somewhere near your one rep max, but one that you feel fairly confident that you're hit. And then your third one you go for broke.

Nick VinZant 21:30

You just kind of go for it. Right? That makes sense? Yeah. Why wouldn't you kind of open up with the second? Do like the second one that's like, okay, it's pretty close? Like, why would you leave yourself with two lifts to really two attempts?

Jennifer Thompson 21:44

That's a little risky, we kind of think about the first one is being like your last warm up. Because there's a lot when you're competing, there's a lot of pressure, right? So if you just get that first one, easy one, and they're like the threat pressure feels off, off of you a little bit. And it's, I mean, there's a lot of mental aspects to this, right. And so you've got, you've got to go out and stand in front of a bunch of people, and lift this way and get judged. And so there's, you know, there's the mental aspect of this competing as well. So I mean, you could definitely, like go for broke on your first one. But, you know, if you miss your out like you're done. I mean, that's the way I do it. And most people do it. But I mean, everyone's got their own, you know, some people have certain percentages they do if they want their third one to be this one, they're the percentage wise open with this one. But I mean, you only have so many heavy lifts and yourself as well. So my theory is why would I waste energy and strength on the first one, I'd like to save it for my second and my third one.

Nick VinZant 22:49

I don't know if this question will make any sense, this could just be a me thing. But anytime I've ever tried to like I'm gonna try to really do this thing. I've never been able to feel like I fully turned my body on, like to recruit everything is that a thing that you have to learn to do? Or is this like, Hey, man, I don't know what you're talking about.

Jennifer Thompson 23:10

Now you have to practice you have to practice hitting what we call one RMS or one run one rep maxes. So throughout our training, we're practicing your body, you know, you have your central nervous system. And that has to be able to react to that kind of weight load. And so if you're just going through your workouts, doing sets of reps of five, or eight or whatever, and then all sudden, you just try to go for your maximum, your body's probably not prepared really, to hit that type of weight. And then we also have certain exercises that we do to help us with that, like, for me, I do what we call heavy holds. So like for the benchpress. And for the the squat, like I'll put an obnoxious amount of weight on it. And I'll just hold it for a static hold for 15 seconds, just so I get used to holding like that crazy heavy weight and so then it doesn't feel so like shocking, when I'm going for a one rep max. And then we do what we call overloads. We at we've put like a lot of weight on with some bands to help us lift the weight like off the bottom but then you're pressing the rest yourself. So you do like the various exercises to kind of prepare your body to be ready to handle a one rep max.

Nick VinZant 24:21

What leading up to a competition right? Like what is your typical training look like?

Jennifer Thompson 24:26

Oh, it's complicated.

Nick VinZant 24:29

What's the

Jennifer Thompson 24:31

everyone kind of has a different way they like to do it too. I mean, I have a certain way. I have a programming app that you can get where I have like 10 of the programs that I like to use on there that you can you know, subscribe and use, but we go through different phases. I'll go through like I hate what we call hypertrophy phase what you're doing lighter, right, but tons of reps to increase your overall base base strength. But then when I get to a competition, I go to what might call my competition phrase, where one week I'm working on the speed Need of how I perform the lift. And then next week I'm working on how much weight I'm worth, I can lift, and I flop them back and forth.

Nick VinZant 25:08

Right now, are you just doing those three lifts generally leading up to it? Are you doing all kinds of stuff?

Jennifer Thompson 25:13

I'm doing all kinds of variations. And assessories

Nick VinZant 25:18

how the like, okay, a typical workout, like, how long will that take you that? Are

Jennifer Thompson 25:24

you in there for like, hour and a half, two hours?

Nick VinZant 25:27

I remember this old powerlifting joke. It's like, No, man, I gotta set like at nine o'clock. Right? Like, how would you? Is there a lot of rest? You just bang this thing out?

Jennifer Thompson 25:37

No, you have to take I mean, the idea is you're trying to live you know, a lot of ways you have to let your muscles reaction Junaid and get ready to go for the next one. That idea is not to get a cardio workout. And the idea is to build as much strength and muscle as possible. So we probably take four to five minutes in between each set.

Nick VinZant 25:58

So is there anything about your body, right? Like, is it? Is it better to be taller or smaller someone's

Jennifer Thompson 26:06

powerlifter like I'm an I'm not a I'm not probably like, what would be typically, like, best for powerlifting have very long arms, which for the bench, a shorter arm is easier, right? And have really long femurs which makes squatting, you know, way more distance up and down. So generally, if you're built for powerlifting, you're sort of a shorter limbs person. Now, that doesn't mean you can't be good, but that's just kind of like, you know, with the squat and the bench or the deadlift, you know, you're just pulling the weight off the floor. So if you're shorter, you know, there's less distance to pull. And same thing with the squat. So like, Yeah, I mean, kind of shorter, compact. People are better, but that certainly doesn't make up everybody.

Nick VinZant 26:55

Yeah, it sounds like you're just kind of strong as shit, honestly. Yeah. What are your words? anybody in your family like that? No. It's just you. Hmm, it's

Jennifer Thompson 27:09

just me. How strange my sister like has like allergic reaction to exercise? She does. And my mom, you know, when I had a hard time, like they didn't even like girls do PE you know, when she was in school? So I mean, maybe she would have been strong. I don't think she ever really tried. And my dad was like a good distance runner and a basketball player. But he never really, I mean, he does wait now actually, he's 8081 years old, and he goes to the gym every morning. And he can still benchpress a decent amount.

Nick VinZant 27:43

Okay, how much is your dad bench pressing? I feel like I need to.

Jennifer Thompson 27:45

It's like, like 185 but at 81

Nick VinZant 27:49

years old? Yeah. So I feel like your strength probably comes from your dad. Yeah. Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh,

Jennifer Thompson 28:00

let's do it.

Nick VinZant 28:01

What is your favorite and least favorite exercise.

Jennifer Thompson 28:04

My favorite actually is the deadlift. Even though I'm best at the bench, I just love the deadlift. It's kind of like you only have to do half the lift because you're just pulling it up from the floor, and then you can just drop it. You're only doing half. So I like that. My least favorite is the squat or, and the other one I would say is Bulgarian split squats. Those

Nick VinZant 28:25

are horrible. That's the worst thing in the world.

Jennifer Thompson 28:29

Yeah, they're so good for you. But off are they awful?

Nick VinZant 28:34

It's just like, it's just like, you have to like I do those. And I have to like mentally prepare myself like, okay, like the whole day

Jennifer Thompson 28:46

they're gonna burn.

Nick VinZant 28:48

Exercise you wish was a powerlifting exercise? Like, ooh, if they put in whatever. All I would love to do that one.

Jennifer Thompson 28:57

Yeah, I would love for them to put strict curling in.

Nick VinZant 29:02

That's a big just a bicep curl. Right? But you like if we get up against a wall? Yes. How much can you do?

Jennifer Thompson 29:08

Um, I think my best is 110

Nick VinZant 29:12

I had so much like, wow, that's a lot. Holy crap. Are you strong? But do you think that like, did you get into this at an age where you felt like, you know what, I I hit my peak. This is the most that I could ever do. Or did you get into it? Like maybe after your physical prime?

Jennifer Thompson 29:33

Well, I think um, like I I was surprising myself the whole time. I was able, and it kept just going up. So I just, I didn't put a ceiling on it. I just kept trying to do it was like an addiction. I just tried to get, you know, higher and higher. And you know, like now that I'm a little bit older, the gains aren't as big. You know, like I'm happy if I can put a few pounds on every year. As long as it's done gaming, I'm happy. But like, I guess no, not really. Because I was already like, Wait, like, even in the beginning, I was surpassing like my, what was even possible for me. I was like, holy cow, I'm doing more oh my god, I'm doing more I can't believe I'm doing this way. So then I just I stopped like questioning it I just kept going.

Nick VinZant 30:26

But how will you react to when it starts to come down?

Jennifer Thompson 30:29

I don't know, I'm sad about that. But I feel like I'm just going to be like the representative of the geriatric population. And I'm going to keep busting down barriers as long as I can.

Nick VinZant 30:46

I do love that every once in a while you see that video of like the 100 year olds running 100 meter dash, and they're still running, it's like 20 seconds, but like they're still doing it. They're still the fastest person in the world.

Jennifer Thompson 30:57

We had our Southeast Regional Championships USA Powerlifting. Last Saturday, and we have this lady, her name is Ruth, and she broke the American record and the deadlift, I think she did over 200 pounds. And she'd only been lifting for a few years. Everyone was going crazy. I mean, it was just so cool to see someone at that age pulling that kind of weight.

Nick VinZant 31:22

How old was she? 70? Oh my gosh, yeah. How are you? Oh, God, this is one of our questions is just says how are your knees?

Jennifer Thompson 31:30

Great. I haven't had really, the only the only problems I've ever had is a hip problem. With my right hip. That's the only injury I've really suffered from powerlifting. I think it's because I sumo deadlift which makes your feet kind of wide. And so I had to do have a laparoscopy I shredded my labrum tendon in your hip. And so I had to go out and have them surgically fix it. And it's always just, it's never like, it's always a little wonky. Some days are great, some days aren't. But that's really the only injury I've ever had. And powerlifting because I think this is kind of one of the differences between men and women also, I think like as women like, we listen to our bodies a little bit more, we're more concerned about doing it correctly than like loading on way more weight than can we possibly do not to give men a bad name, but they're kind of more like that. And so that's why I love working with women, when I do seminars and things like that I love the women because they're not like, worried about showing me how much they can lift, they just want to know how to do it right, you know, so they're not going to help hurt themselves, and they're going to execute the lift correctly. And so I think just being that way, my whole life and just listening when things start feeling a little off, I can always back off. And that's kept me like healthy.

Nick VinZant 32:51

I've always heard that women are actually proportionately stronger than men. Hmm, that might be true, but that men are just stronger because like, we're, we're just bigger. I guess

Jennifer Thompson 33:02

you have more muscle mass, you know, that's for sure. And, yeah, so even with like the benchpress everyone always asks me like, how am I how do I deal with shoulder problems, I've never had shoulder problems. I just always, you know, got into like, a great position. I don't use my shoulders a whole lot. I roll them back and squeeze my shoulder blades together to kind of use them a little less. And I just I have I've been just, I think smart about it.

Nick VinZant 33:32

This one just says what's with the suits,

Jennifer Thompson 33:34

the suits Oh, there is another aspect of powerlifting it's called a quit powerlifting I do what's called classic or raw powerlifting which is what you would normally see in a gym, you know, t shirt, shorts, whatever. They do have a quick powerlifting which is where they have like bench shirts, deadlift suit, squat suits, and you put these super thick material items on they help you lift more basically is what it is.

Nick VinZant 33:59

What's the point of that? I guess? Right? Like why? It kind of sounds like not cheating, right? Yeah. Finding. Yeah, what's the point of it? Well,

Jennifer Thompson 34:11

I don't know. Like when I very first started powerlifting that's all there was there was no raw or classic powerlifting it was all equips you had to wear a squat suit agenda suit and a bench shirt. The theory is that back in the 70s when Paljor was getting going, they started realizing if they were tighter T shirts, you know they could get a better bench and then they started wearing thicker material and then it was just sort of this I don't know this like oh, if we keep adding more equipment, we can lift more weight and when and it just went to astronomical proportions. So I think and 2008 is when USA Powerlifting started offering raw or classic lifting and once that happened equipped lifting went to almost none inexistent, and then our numbers started going crazy with the raw powerlifting. Because if it was hard, I never really got a lot out of the equipment because basically what it's doing is it's compressing you to make kind of like a spring when you live. And the more kind of, if you're not real squishy, like you don't have a lot of extra weight, you don't get a lot out of the quick Mexican yet compress you. So I've always been very thin, and like kind of long, stringy muscles. So like my, I think my best bench with the equip the bench shirt on was like 330. And I think my best squat was 405. And I actually surpassed my deadlift and deadlift suit. I think my best deadlift was like 395, or something. And this was, you know, a long time ago, but I never liked it hurts like, it cuts you up when you use it, it's horrible.

Nick VinZant 35:54

It kind of seems like not cheating, but like, it's not real.

Jennifer Thompson 36:00

It's hard to say like, I won the World benchpress championships with a 320 pound benchpress they really didn't do it. I always really had a hard time with that. But at that point in powerlifting, if you didn't put on the shirt, you were at a huge disadvantage, because everybody else was wearing it.

Nick VinZant 36:18

If this is you say it's you, it kind of sounds like it might be you. But who's the Michael Jordan of powerlifting?

Jennifer Thompson 36:26

Um, I don't know, that's pretty hard to say honestly. It's the female side is so competitive right now I feel like it's changing every single year. Especially on the international side. Like on my side, a lot of our we have we just we started a Pro Division, which now you can get a pro card and get invited to the pro events, which are basically where you can win money and things like that. And so at the Arnold last year, it's Arnold Classic is almost towards the neggers big event he holds, which is a big deal. But so you do it by what we call dots, which is kind of basically a formula that tries to even out all the weight classes. So like pound for pound who miss lifted the most. And I took for last year. And the first place, girl. She was in this 57 kilo weight class, I think but anyway, so she won, but then someone else just beat her like, I mean, there's nobody like there's no one holding steady in that position. Probably the last five years. It's been ever even on the men's side, too. I mean, there's so many people getting into it now that you think like this guy's you know, going to win. There's a podcast called quinoa lifts, and they kind of like commentate on all powerlifting. And they just did this podcast and like, who's era are we in now. And I had an era. You know, I won four world championships in a row for powerlifting. And I won seven for the benchpress. And so there was a time where I was for three years in a row. I was the best power lifter in the world. So they gave me that era. But now we don't know who's era it is because nobody has been able to maintain that spot more than one.

Nick VinZant 38:19

Is there on the men side. Is there somebody that's looked at as being like, oh, that's probably the best. It's just all over the place. Right?

Jennifer Thompson 38:27

Right now it's all over the place. There was like, one of our super heavyweights was Ray Williams. And he was like the best guy to beat for few years. But again, now it's like and even we had Taylor Atwood he was raining for a while. Really good. And Russell or he they had several like three or four years that they were the top dog. But now it's anybody.

Nick VinZant 38:51

What What music do you listen to before I left?

Jennifer Thompson 38:55

Oh, I always listened to AC DC thunderstruck.

Nick VinZant 39:00

How come why? How come that?

Jennifer Thompson 39:02

It gives me goosebumps when I don't listen to it and training. I only listened to it in competition cuz I'm afraid if I listened to it too long, it'll lose its effect. As soon as that starts coming on. By hair starts right I mean, get now my hair starts rising on my arms and I'm getting all like, jacked up and like just so that's it.

Nick VinZant 39:26

Do you ever have people slap you on the back? No, I don't like that. What's the deal with that? Why are people doing it? Some people feel

Jennifer Thompson 39:33

like it just get them going. Some people slap in the face. Some people use ammonia, you know what ammonia is? You know, like they always smelling? You know like if you were to pass out smelling salts. Yeah, they'll sniff that and get a real dude. And then go and I think all those sorts of things are really kind of methods to get your game face on and get the nerves out of the way. So your nerves can really tear you down like you can get up there and you could be like all Crap, I missed this in training how I'm gonna get this now like, what if this happens? What if I miss? What if I blah, blah, blah. So all those are methods to try to clear out the brain and get you focused and amped up.

Nick VinZant 40:14

I feel like something like if I'm doing something and I think to myself, Oh, that feels heavy, I'm done. Like, however much weight it is, it doesn't matter if it's like 135 I'm like, well, that's heavy. Um, it's over for

Jennifer Thompson 40:26

me? Well, again, it's like the training, we're picking up heavy stuff a lot. You know, and it's, and I do tell myself, like, when I'm going for that sort of lift, I told myself before, I guess it's gonna be heavy, it's gonna be heavy, be ready for it to be heavy. Go down with it and see if it comes up. What's the worst thing you have spiders on every side to grab it from you. So I, especially with the squat, and a squat is my weakest event. And it's the one I feel the least confident about. So when I'm up there, and I'm getting under it, and I walk it out, I just taught myself go down and see if it comes up.

Nick VinZant 41:04

Will you have people though, in competitions that may be like they've got one or two great events and then terrible and other ones? Does that happen? That's

Jennifer Thompson 41:13

the nice thing about powerlifting. Usually, somebody has one thing that's like their best event. And then you have to work hard at the other ones. There's now a whole lot of people that are great at all of

Nick VinZant 41:22

it. Why wouldn't you be great at all three of them. And I think like if you're strong, you're strong.

Jennifer Thompson 41:27

Yeah, but certain certain things lead to different like, if you have a huge ass and hamstrings, you're gonna be great the squat, you know, or if you have shorter arms and big upper body, you're going to be great at the bench. And for the deadlift, you know, The taller you are, the harder it is, right? So, a lot of people have great squats have terrible deadlifts, because it's kind of a little bit different. So it's all the muscles that you're gonna use and where your strength is. That

Nick VinZant 41:52

is their trash talk. Oh, sure.

Jennifer Thompson 41:56

I'm like friendly trash talk, you usually don't see like a lot of like ugliness and powerlifting. Even the guys that are like going head to head like, you know, you got the top threes guys back there, they're back there slapping each other on the back, you know, like, let's go and maybe inside their head, they might be wishing they'd missed but outside really being very supportive. Same thing with the women like, you know, we're all competing against each other. But it's a it really is not. There's no nastiness really back there, where when you come off the platform, everyone's high fiving everybody else, you know, because even though you're competing against other people, you're really kind of competing against yourself as well, you're trying to outdo yourself. So. So it's really it's not, in my experience, it has not been like nasty trash talking stuff, at least on where I left,

Nick VinZant 42:53

that that's actually kind of that's actually one of our listener submitted questions is, are you kidding? are you competing more against yourself or the other people?

Jennifer Thompson 43:02

Um, I think probably both, you know, like, you're always trying to we, we use the term PR personal record. So you're always trying to PR your lifts, you know, out do what you did last time, a minimum li when you go into competition, you're at least hoping bare minimum, you're gonna be hard something, then there's records, you know, you want to break a record. And it depends on the competition. You know, what you're going for, like a nationals, you know, you're trying to win the national championship. And there is a little competitiveness in the deadlift. Because when you lift in powerlifting, like once you put in, I'm gonna lift this weight, you can't change it. So if I say I'm gonna bench 275, on my first one, I gotta do 275. If I miss it, I can either repeat it, or I can go up, I can never go down. So there's a little bit of competition that way, and then with the deadlift on your very last deadlift, because this is how you determine who when you know, you're adding up your total as you go, you can change your last deadlift twice. So like, let's say we're competing against each other. And my total is 10 pounds above yours right now. So you're going to choose a deadlift. 10 pounds over mine to try to beat me. But when you put that in, then I can put mine over yours. And then you can put yours over mine.

Nick VinZant 44:24

Oh, so you're trying to get a little bit of

Jennifer Thompson 44:27

strategy in the end, but usually don't see that too much until you get to the national and world level. At the local level. You don't see that too much because the competition is just not that high.

Nick VinZant 44:38

So have you ever like bluffed somebody been like Yes. How does that work? Explain like what's your like? What's happening?

Jennifer Thompson 44:47

Um, well, like so my husband is my coach and I'm his coach. And my husband's like, he's really good. He's been our national coach, he coaches for the college. He's very good with powerlifting and numbers and understanding How things work so like, it really it's good to go in with like a huge to have the biggest opener in the deadlift sometimes and so he'll like but some of noxious number like and for my deadlift my open or mean you can change it five minutes out and then he might drop it back down just to see where everyone's putting their number in and then we'll drop in where we want to go.

Nick VinZant 45:22

So there is kind of a gamesmanship that was there. That's only for the deadlift, though the other ones only for

Jennifer Thompson 45:27

well, and then we have bench only meets also where you just do we're only doing bench press. And you can do the same thing on this third lifted the bench press and a bench only me.

Nick VinZant 45:37

I'm future the sport.

Jennifer Thompson 45:41

It's bright. I think it's really good. I, I think we've got a good plan. I think I think our society as a whole is wanting to be healthier. But I think a lot of people are going into some sort of exercise we have so much science is that is how much better weight training in particular is for you. And just your overall health and your bone structure and things like that. But I think it's something anybody can do. Like, you don't have to have like a skill set really to do this. Like you don't have to be great at dribbling a ball. Or you don't have to be great at shooting an arrow or whatever, you know, you don't have to have like a natural skill. Anybody literally can do this sport, you just have to get in and learn how to do it. And then a lot of it comes down to just how dedicated and how badly do you want it to say how far you go in the sport. So I think we have that going for us that you know, just literally, you can you could literally right now just become a member and go try a powerlifting meet and see how it goes. And then I guarantee you'll probably never leave.

Nick VinZant 46:51

That's pretty much all the questions we got what's kind of coming up next for you? How can people get a hold of you that kind of stuff?

Jennifer Thompson 46:57

Oh, let's see I have bench nationals coming up in Phoenix, Arizona, August 5. So that's my next competition. And then I have a three lift which is squat bench and deadlift is the next nationals is it's the timber 15th in Memphis, Tennessee. So those are the next things that I'm currently training for right now. I've got a couple of seminars coming up one in Chicago, and one in Atlanta in August, and then one in LA in October. So I enjoy that aspect of it. I love working with people in real life and like just really helping them get stronger. I just really enjoy it, I have a pretty good eye for for just helping people do little things that make things easier and better. So and I just enjoy meeting new people. That's fun also, for you can follow me on Instagram, I'm always putting, I try to make sure what I post is fairly useful. So I try to put like, this is how I do this are this really helps when you do that, or you know, so I try to make it pretty useful, informative. And that's Jen Thompson 132. I also had a tic tac, my older son is 19. And we like to do like challenges. And they're like, Well, do you who can benchpress the most or who can do the more most pull ups or who's got the biggest biceps like that. And some of that, my my tick tock, I enjoy doing that with him. And then I have a website, 132 pounds power.com for just any kind of information. And I have my training app, which is Thomsons dot programs dot app. If you want to do my train my exact training, what I do is on there and it's an app that you can do and record all your training and keep tracking trician and all that really wonderful stuff. Oh, and I have a YouTube with tons of tutorials on there. It's 132 pounds of power I just finished doing I think a 14 segment quick bench tips. Like I just broke it down from the very beginning. Like this is how you set your feet. This is how you set your hands. This is how you set your shoulders.

Nick VinZant 49:04

Do you ever just go into a regular gym? Like what's the reaction if you go into like Planet Fitness and

Jennifer Thompson 49:09

yeah, like we do like when we're on vacation, you know, or we're just our gym is at our home so generally we just chained down in our garage gym. But when we go on vacation we do and usually a lot of staring and then every once a while someone will just come up and talk to you like hey, like I was just visiting my mother and name lifting and one of the things that there and some guy walked up to me he goes you're obviously somebody who are you

Nick VinZant 49:37

I mean if I saw like if I went to the gym that I go to, which is like $19 a month and I walked in there and saw a woman benching 315 pounds, I would be fucking shocked. Like holy crap.

Jennifer Thompson 49:52

It's a little unnerving sometimes because you can see like in the mirror, everyone's staring at you. So for me like it just You're below awkward. The kind of fun too, because usually, at least a few people come up and talk to you. And I love talking about powerlifting. So

Nick VinZant 50:09

I want to thank Jennifer, so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on threads, tick tock, YouTube, and Instagram. And we've also included her information in the episode description. If you want to see her do some of these lifts that we've talked about, we have a YouTube version of this episode that will be live on July 13, at 4:30pm Pacific. Real quick, I want to take a second and thank one of the sponsors of our show HelloFresh. And right now HelloFresh has a special offer for our listeners where you can go and get 50% off plus free shipping. With HelloFresh you get farm fresh, pre portioned ingredients and Seasonal Recipes delivered right to your doorstep. We got it recently. And it was it was honestly really good, really easy and save a bunch of time. I'm on this big cutting down on waste kick. So getting pre portioned ingredients helped cut down on food waste, you get step by step instructions, they have over 40 recipes, so you can try something different. And what I really liked about it is that you don't have to think about like, what am I going to have for dinner? How long is this going to take? Everything is really right there. And it was could not have been easier. And like I mentioned right now we've got a special discount for listeners, all you have to do is go to hellofresh.com/pointless 50 and use code pointless 50 for 50% off plus free shipping. We're gonna go ahead and put that information in the description. But again, that's hellofresh.com/pointless 50 and use code pointless 50 for 50% off, plus free shipping. HelloFresh is America's number one meal kit. And I was skeptical at first, but it's worth checking out it really is. Okay. Now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. What would you say is your greatest feat of strength?

John Shull 52:20

You know, probably when my wife broke her ankle and she was laying at the bottom of our stairs. And I picked her up like she was out of a movie and let her like it was a scene out of a movie, carried her up the stairs, put her in the car and took her to the hospital.

Nick VinZant 52:36

Okay, did now wait a minute, when you say pick her up? Are we talking all four limbs off the ground? Or was she kind of helping you a little bit and you were taking more credit than you should have?

John Shull 52:48

Oh, no, she she was dead weight. Actually, she'll she'll even tell you that. She I've never been sexier than when I quick 10 second intro, she wanted to buy a weight bench and I told her do not buy the weight bench. We don't need it. So I we had gotten to a big fight this both. Before we had children. I went out to the bar and was having drinks fill in pretty good. She decided to carry the weight bench down the stairs. Mess the second stair, you know and broke her ankle so she's calling me while I'm out. And listen everyone who's listening to this I get it. I was a terrible I think I was a boyfriend at the time. Maybe a fiancee I don't remember. But either way. I know I was terrible. Regardless, I didn't answer her phone calls at first, or text messages because we were fighting. And then I finally answered one and she's like, you know, hysterical?

Nick VinZant 53:38

How many phone calls last text message did you ignore while your wife was in agony? On the basement floor? And you were out drinking?

John Shull 53:47

I mean, I mean, I mean, I don't know, probably less than 10 times of her calling less than, yeah, it was a lot. I just I just didn't want to touch a lot. We were fighting. You know, we were having a couples fight. And we were married, by the way, because we were living in this house. So we weren't married, but we didn't have children.

Nick VinZant 54:02

So you ignored the mother of your children, agonizing on the floor to drink at a bar with your buddies.

John Shull 54:12

Sure if that's the that's the civil sentence. You're gonna go within Yes, that is accurate.

Nick VinZant 54:18

Okay, what's the timeframe? What's the timeframe between when the first call came in? And when you finally decided, oh, maybe I should see if my wife is in trouble.

John Shull 54:27

I mean, probably 20 minutes. I mean, it's not like I wait, maybe, you know, it's not like I had her weight powers. But I mean,

Nick VinZant 54:33

kind of a long time. What if she was trapped into the weight branch? She could have she made she could have expired

John Shull 54:39

would have been her own fault then. What are you a public information officer could have expired could

Nick VinZant 54:47

have as she could have passed her mortal coil.

John Shull 54:49

She was. I mean, she was hurtin she had never, never broken a bone before. So

Nick VinZant 54:54

oh, she broke a bone. No.

John Shull 54:57

I mean, sprained it they She had a severe like the worst brand you can have, but I swear, like she broke it.

Nick VinZant 55:04

So wait a minute, did you being able to pick her up completely erased the fact that you ignored her phone calls for 20 minutes?

John Shull 55:12

Yes, absolutely.

Nick VinZant 55:15

I don't know if that should? I don't know. I don't think that I don't think that I think she's probably lying to you. I think in the back of her mind. She's like, Well, maybe if you were to answer the phone. You're the person you love most in this world is calling and you just looked at the number and said decline.

John Shull 55:31

Obviously, I'm a terrible person. I understand that. I would not do that now. But you know, I also didn't understand the gravity of the situation. You know, your mind changes as you get older. Okay, so it's a true you fell down the stairs as a bone sticking out? No. Okay, then get up the stairs. But yeah,

Nick VinZant 55:49

yeah. It's only when you get older. Do you guys like oh, somebody might be in trouble? Probably. Wow. So you feel good about that, though. So what we've basically learned is that you ignore your wife while she's agonizing in pain at the bottom of the basement, and then claim that that's your greatest moment is carrying her back upstairs after you kind of caused her to fall down the stairs in the first place.

John Shull 56:12

I see I didn't and that's that's actually been the point of contention. Ever since that story.

Nick VinZant 56:18

Well, why didn't you carry the weight bench down? You should have been the one carrying the weight bench down.

John Shull 56:23

I agree I should have been but I was I was doing it out of protest or not doing it out of broke does was I didn't want the stupid thing in the basement in the first place.

Nick VinZant 56:31

Where did you want it?

John Shull 56:32

I didn't want it at all. It was one of those like, hey, my coworker is giving this or saw. Yeah, no, I don't want another thing to put in the friggin basement. And

Nick VinZant 56:45

have you used the weight bench since besides anything for any form of how many times for exercise purposes, has the weight bench been used?

John Shull 56:54

Probably less than a dozen times.

Nick VinZant 56:56

Okay. Okay. So yeah, that's that's tracks.

John Shull 56:59

Well, it's heavy. I mean, if you've ever carried like a, you know, a weight bench, I mean, probably 40 pounds.

Nick VinZant 57:04

Yeah, that was really the responsible use it was to allow it to not do that in the first place.

John Shull 57:09

No, I'm not taking any blame for that. She shouldn't have carried it or not even brought it home.

Nick VinZant 57:14

Or it's her fault because you wouldn't do a job and she has she sounds like a go getter. She sounds like somebody who's going to get stuff done.

John Shull 57:19

I shouldn't be nice to her because the day we record this, it's her birthday today. So you know, I should not be speaking ill of her.

Nick VinZant 57:26

No, you shouldn't be he already did. Sorry. I

John Shull 57:28

don't doesn't matter. But yeah, okay. Probably do you have one of note.

Nick VinZant 57:33

Um, I don't know if it's a feat of direct strength or a feat of strength endurance, but I once moved. A tie. Well, I once moved our entire house. And this is with me, my wife and two kids out of one house into storage, out of storage, into the moving truck into a new house. All of that in one weekend, as the only time that I've ever felt like my tendons were sore from just simply holding, like simply holding on to something. My tendons were store were sore, and there was an upstairs in a basement. And I had to do that all by myself. While my white wife watched our three month old, I felt I felt like a pocket man. I'll tell you that. I felt like like, Man, I did something today.

John Shull 58:23

It is different as you get older, like the things that you know, that you take pride in, that you think are feats of strength when all these young kids that are listening to us are like these are things of strength years, little guys,

Nick VinZant 58:36

right? And what I'm always made by amazed by is if we went back in time to like us 50,000 years ago, or 100,000 years ago like that they would beat the shit out of us. Like their physical abilities were probably so far advanced above what ours are now it's it's probably incredible.

John Shull 58:56

I don't know if I agree with that. Because I feel like we're much bigger people now than then.

Nick VinZant 59:01

But we're not that much bigger. We're bigger weight wise. I think we're only a couple of inches taller. But I was reading a book. The only book that I've read in the last 10 years. It said we used to walk like 20 miles a day.

John Shull 59:14

Yeah, I mean, that's I endurance wise, I'm sure but pure strength wise, I don't. I don't I think we've only gotten stronger. I think that's part of the problem as society is we value the wrong kind of endurance and strength

Nick VinZant 59:28

is gonna turn into a whole thing, isn't it? It's gonna turn into a whole thing

John Shull 59:32

I've got I'll stop. I'm done. All right. Okay.

Nick VinZant 59:34

All right. Let's just

John Shull 59:36

move on to some people who deserve me, giving them shout outs. Let's see here. Antoine Trudeau. To get one to start with Robert Herrera. Angel Felix Shawn campy, a friend casado. Joe Byram Josh Meyers One Espinosa, Bernardo, Malta Jr. and Kobe Granberg reciate Kobe

Nick VinZant 1:00:09

solid. Kobe is a solid name you gotta be from the Midwest though.

John Shull 1:00:14

So it's funny because the next segment that I'm debuting on the podcast is us just sitting here making bodily noises. Okay,

Nick VinZant 1:00:23

which one are you going to go with?

John Shull 1:00:24

No, you go first just start farting. Make fart noises?

Nick VinZant 1:00:27

I really can't do that on command to be honest with you. Well, that's

John Shull 1:00:30

terrible. Anyone can do it. But no, that is not the segment. The segment and we can blame Elon Musk for this. Because usually at this point in the podcast, I go over some things. We have a little fun, which we're gonna have, I think, but one of those things includes a poll on Twitter. Well, if you've been following that debacle, Twitter is a kind of say, God, damn, it's a goddamn shit show. You

Nick VinZant 1:00:54

just did. Yeah, either way.

John Shull 1:00:56

It's a shit show. It's ruined. And I don't I don't think it's ever going to come back to ever what it was. Not that anyone cares about my opinion. And I'm not a tech know how but it seems like Twitter is gone forever.

Nick VinZant 1:01:12

Without getting in any kind of politics or stuff like that. There does seem to be even from a neutral observer, there does seem to be something that's kind of been lost about it. Like what it just you just lost interest in it a little bit. Whether that's because of what it has been become the controversies. What however, you wanted to find them around it, but it's just kind of lost interest, like, done with that.

John Shull 1:01:35

I just, I think a lot of it's the negativity. And I know that's most social media. But I feel like you don't hear hear it as much coming from an Instagram or even a Facebook anymore. I feel like anything negative about Twitter's as well deserved. And I don't I don't think it's because of Elon taking it over. I think he just wanted to control something any fucking dying ship.

Nick VinZant 1:02:00

I mean, I will say again, without getting into politics, I lean a little bit left of center. And I used to get like tweets recommended to me that were a little bit left of center. But recently, all I've gotten was like stuff that like, whoa, that's not anywhere in lines with the port. I personally think. So I do think that there was a shift that a lot of people have kind of like, I don't really like this very much anymore.

John Shull 1:02:26

Yeah, I will. It's funny you say that, and I won't get into it. But I'm gonna say one sentence about it. And that is I think, because of the last presidential election cycle. I think nobody wants to go through any of that, again, no matter what side of the aisle you're on. And I think people are starting to get that more and more. And I'll you know, I just think people are done with it. They don't they don't want to see that anymore. And

Nick VinZant 1:02:49

no, I think anytime they great. I think that you can extrapolate this to all of society is that you can watch an argument for a little while. And then after like, Oh, okay. I don't want to see this anymore. I think that's just kind of the phase that we're at. Right? Like I'm tired all this. I don't have time for that.

John Shull 1:03:08

So all right, in saying that, I came up with this fantastic idea.

Nick VinZant 1:03:14

Okay, so a statement, a bold statement, we're clear that your idea that has never been done yet is already fantastic, but okay, that's fine.

John Shull 1:03:21

We're gonna say really, it's gonna have a little fun with it. And if it's ruined, I'll come up with something for the next podcast or if anyone has an idea, send it our way, and I'll do my best to ruin it. Okay. Okay. So this is called Profoundly Pointless fact. Or Fiction.

Nick VinZant 1:03:34

Okay, all right. I get this two weeks, that we'll do this not because it's not good, but because you'll lose interest

John Shull 1:03:41

know if it's good. And you don't give me one word answers. Because this can be a 32nd thing or a 10 minute thing. So see what happens. I have four different four different topics, I guess. I'm gonna say a sentence and you we'll start with you telling me if they're true or false, and then we can go from there, right? Okay, first one here. Hey, hippos jaw, when opened to the full extent, is wide enough to fit a sports car inside of it.

Nick VinZant 1:04:09

What kind of sports car are we talking about? We talking about a Chevy Corvette. We talking about a Mazda Miata? I just need some specifics here. i There's a lot of kinds of sports cars. Some are pretty big. Some are pretty small.

John Shull 1:04:21

I'm thinking a mid sized convertible.

Nick VinZant 1:04:25

Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would think that that is probably true. I've seen some pictures of hippos opening their jaws and they look like they're

Speaker 3 1:04:33

probably big. So why can't you just answer that I like I feel like I just gave you just one

Nick VinZant 1:04:37

specific answer. You're talking about right like, it'd be anything.

John Shull 1:04:42

It is correct. A full grown hippo. When opening their mouth to full the full extent can fit a Lamborghini,

Nick VinZant 1:04:52

then think of how much food that thing could eat.

John Shull 1:04:54

Yeah, and how fast of swimmers they are too. That's scary. They're mean

Nick VinZant 1:04:58

animals. I think they can A lot of people, yeah, well,

John Shull 1:05:01

you know how Okay, all right, second one here. Can you see the Great Wall of China? From space? No. That is correct. According to NASA, the Great Wall of China is frequently built as the only manmade object visible from space, said, however, it cannot be seen from space, it was debunked by a Chinese astronaut. And for some reason textbooks have never been changed, and is still often claimed as being true even still taught in schools as being true. But how

Nick VinZant 1:05:39

did they know how do they know it wasn't just one astronaut with really good eyesight?

John Shull 1:05:45

I don't I mean, if you want to look up his his credentials, it's Yang. L. i Wei is the astronaut that apparently made this claim so

Nick VinZant 1:05:55

that he said that you could or he said that you could not you cannot see it from space. Maybe he has bad eyesight? How do we know this? Do we know information on the high side of the different astronauts that have tried to see the Great Wall of China? These are specifics that need to be involved? How do you know if you couldn't see it? How do you know you were looking in the right place?

John Shull 1:06:12

Like whatever the Chinese space program, you don't have to be able to see anything?

Nick VinZant 1:06:16

Because you go up into space and be like, That's Nebraska?

John Shull 1:06:20

Um, no, well, maybe if you're up there long, No, you wouldn't be able

Nick VinZant 1:06:25

now you couldn't do that. So maybe everybody else was just looking in the wrong place? I would say this is unsolved.

John Shull 1:06:35

I guess? Well, I guess we'll add that one of the unsolved category, even though it's clearly been debunked

Nick VinZant 1:06:39

by one guy by one guy.

John Shull 1:06:43

So how many astronauts would it take for you to believe it?

Nick VinZant 1:06:47

Three people looking at exactly where it should be? Then I could believe it. But otherwise, how do I know that these people don't have bad eyesight? Or that they're looking in the wrong place?

John Shull 1:06:58

I don't know. I mean, you're I guess you're asking very valid questions in a weird way.

Nick VinZant 1:07:05

It just seems odd that that would be something that somebody just made up.

John Shull 1:07:10

I mean, I I don't know. But I love that this is totally planning and what I

Nick VinZant 1:07:13

was hoping it would be what did they see that they thought it was the Great Wall of China?

John Shull 1:07:17

Pointless? I don't mean, it probably could be mistaken for a mountain range at that level, you know, I don't know. Because you're seeing it from a flat surface, you're not seeing the height right?

Nick VinZant 1:07:28

And you ever looked at a map man, like mountains are big, pretty well, China is not that width wise.

John Shull 1:07:35

Alright, here's another one for you. Do you actually think that you swallow eight to 24 Spiders while you sleep during your lifetime? That is the average number of spiders people think you may swallow during your lifetime while you're sleeping?

Nick VinZant 1:07:54

No, I don't think that's true. How would you ever ever find that out? You would have to monitor somebody sleeping in a random room somewhere to see how many spiders they actually saw. So unless somebody sat there in somebody else's room, monitoring how many spiders crawled into their mouth, there's no way that they could have the average for this. There's no way to figure that out.

John Shull 1:08:16

I'm not gonna lie to you or three for three right now. That is correct. According to Scientific American, and I have no idea if that's a credible website or not, or

Nick VinZant 1:08:29

sounds like it isn't as science in it.

John Shull 1:08:31

I, well, I don't want to be too, too quick to jump the gun. But our research consultant is out of town this week. But that they say that spiders don't intentionally crawl into your bed. And they for sure would not crawl into your mouth while you're sleeping. Because of the vibration that you give would give off while you're sleeping. Whether that be snoring, heavy breathing, etc. Spiders are afraid of us naturally. So they wouldn't do anything from from going into your mouth on purpose yet alone, let alone being swallowed. Which, you know. Yeah, so you are correct that it has been debunked. And the quote here is spiders regardless much like a big rock and that is from Bill cheer. Former President of the American Iraq neurological society.

Nick VinZant 1:09:21

Okay, see now I believe him. Why would they think of us as a big rock?

John Shull 1:09:28

I mean, I can I can go on here. Spider telepathy,

Nick VinZant 1:09:30

what the fuck does he know?

John Shull 1:09:34

Bill Rob, anyone knows bill,

Nick VinZant 1:09:36

please share probably knows. I mean, he's probably like they could figure these kinds of things out right? Like if I was a spider would you want that's the thing like most animals don't want anything to do with us. I think in the United in the animal kingdom. We are fairly big compared to other things in the world.

John Shull 1:09:52

Like, you know, it's he goes on to add in this this quote, If a sleeping person has their mouth open, they're like List snoring, creating vibrations that would warn spiders of danger. And spiders would go nowhere near that person's body, let alone their mouth.

Nick VinZant 1:10:08

Would that be their spider sense would go off?

John Shull 1:10:10

Oh boy. I gotta tell you I watched a cocaine bear over the weekend. And you want to talk about animals? I don't even know what I watched. I have no idea. Alright.

Nick VinZant 1:10:21

Movie kind of didn't do a lot. No, it's really do a lot.

John Shull 1:10:25

It's uh, yeah, the true stories is probably more fascinating than the, you know, story that they did on in Hollywood. True. Stranger Than Fiction, man. All right, the last one. So your three for three. Can you be perfect on your, I guess the debut. But here it is. It's estimated. Is this true or false factor fiction? That it's estimated typical pencil as enough graphite to draw a line 35 miles long. True. Damn

Nick VinZant 1:10:58

fourth, I get that one. Right. That seems like a ridiculous amount. Right? Yeah, right.

John Shull 1:11:02

I'm I cited that choice actually. Because I didn't believe it. 35 miles long from one number two pencil Get the out here.

Nick VinZant 1:11:11

Is there any other pencil besides the number two? Have you ever had a number one or number three pencil?

John Shull 1:11:18

No, are there such things? Wait, I feel like I might have had a number three at some point. But I don't really recall.

Nick VinZant 1:11:29

I'm looking at it at whatever I do you have it set then else are you done?

John Shull 1:11:32

No. That's the for you and for for for like now I gotta I gotta challenge myself.

Nick VinZant 1:11:36

So a pencil makers manufacturer number one to 2.53 and four. And sometimes other intermediate numbers. The higher the number, the harder the core and lighter the markings. So number two is actually fairly low on the list. Or high on the list. Okay, all right. I mean, bright behind number one. Well,

John Shull 1:12:00

what's better number two or number one?

Nick VinZant 1:12:03

Number one is usually always the better. It's easier and faster. Okay, is that your whole thing? Did that replace all of your questions? Yeah, that's okay.

John Shull 1:12:12

I'm just thinking about redoing it. You know, maybe I felt like that was good. We'll see. Next week. I'm going to stump you though. That's my guarantee. Check us out next week because I will stump you you will not go for for for next week. How

Nick VinZant 1:12:22

do you feel about me going for four on the very first thing, which one did you think was like that's gonna get?

John Shull 1:12:27

Ah, well, I thought the spider one because that's a real misconception that or the one that or the the Great Wall of China? I thought both of those would get you because those are misnomers. right people. You know, think that that's true. They think that both those claims are absolutely true. So, bravo, you went nothing. But hopefully people found a little bit of entertainment and some pointless knowledge in our last topic, or segment.

Nick VinZant 1:12:54

Okay, so then are you ready for our top five? I am. Okay, so our top five is top five green flags, red flag usually like, Oh, that's a sign that somebody's going to be a little bit a little bit something, but a green flag sign that someone is actually a good person. So top five green flags for people.

John Shull 1:13:16

So my number five is, it's probably could be number one. But we'll see where our lists take us. So my number five is having good hygiene. Um, by that if I have to be more specific, you know, somebody and this is just me, by the way, so don't no one take offense to this. But this is what I look for. Somebody like who has, you know, clean fingernails? Maybe it looks like they've showered in the last day. You know, somebody, just somebody that looks put together to a certain extent.

Nick VinZant 1:13:46

I think you kind of disparaging a lot of blue collar America. Some people work hard.

John Shull 1:13:51

No, listen, that's not that's not what I'm saying. I'm not, you know, I'm not saying but just for me. I mean, you know, if, if I'm coming at it from like, going on a date point of view, not going to work. Like if, if I'm in a factory and I see a person, a man or a woman, whatever you're into, doesn't matter me if there was dirt interfering? Okay, fine. That's normal. But like, if we're out and about or like if I'm at a dance club, which hasn't happened in 10 years, and I miss it, but I see somebody with dirty fingernails like I'm gonna start wondering like, why are they here with dirty fingernails?

Nick VinZant 1:14:25

Okay, I can understand that. I would say that my red flag related to hygiene is if the person looks sticky. If they just kind of look like they might be sticky, that's usually a big red flag.

John Shull 1:14:38

I'm gonna need you to elaborate on what that means. I can't even

Nick VinZant 1:14:41

elaborate they just have like a sticky look to them. Like Oh, you look like you might be sticky. Okay, all right. I have never seen somebody like that

John Shull 1:14:50

into our like, minute thing that you post on social

Nick VinZant 1:14:53

that's I don't look if somebody looks sticky. Next time look around at people and see somebody like oh, they look like they might Be kind of sticky. That's that's to me is a red flag. My number five, my number five green flag is being on time. Somebody who is punctual. Usually a pretty good person because they respect their time and they respect your time.

John Shull 1:15:18

That's a good one. Yeah, I can't argue with that being on time, as is probably one of the most important things because like you said, it shows respect. It's not just, you know, it goes all the way around, I guess is what I'm saying. It's a very good thing to have all the way around.

Nick VinZant 1:15:35

I agree. Okay, what's your number four.

John Shull 1:15:37

So my number four green flag. And this is a physical trait yet again. But somebody that has a good, honest laugh or smile, like you can usually tell right away if someone is a good person, by how they laugh or smile.

Nick VinZant 1:15:54

Yeah, I would say somebody with a good laugh is usually going to be tolerable. For sure. Yeah. Okay. I can even tolerate somebody who laughs a little bit too much, right? Like that may annoy you but it's not a sign of a big character problem. Like, oh, you're having too much fun is not usually an issue. You can't laugh at everything, like a fucking idiot. But yeah, fucking idiot. Fucking moron. Um, my number four is returned to the shopping cart.

John Shull 1:16:25

Okay, I mean, yeah, I mean, okay, fair enough. I mean, I probably would have, I probably would have put that at number five, I was willing to put that on my list, but

Nick VinZant 1:16:35

they probably should have been ahead or below

John Shull 1:16:40

that, again, being my number three green flag is kind of similar to that. And I have somebody who opens doors for others.

Nick VinZant 1:16:48

I don't consider that to be a green flag. I think that's just what you should do as a person living in society is opening doors. I don't know if I've ever had somebody that really directly did not hold a door that they saw you. And you were reason you are close enough to to three steps and did not hold a door. Really, I don't think that's ever happened. I can't think of a single instance in which somebody has not held a door. Within reason. Like you were close enough. And they also saw you.

John Shull 1:17:20

Yeah, I mean, I've had people, you know, two steps in front of me, let it shut. You know, I've had the worst is when you know, those revolving doors, where you walk through, I've had people like just say, Fuck you guy and like, pinch me in there. Like at one time, or I got stuck halfway in there. Like Thank you, whoever you were.

Nick VinZant 1:17:42

What were you How did you now that's probably going to be your fault. What did they do that you got stuck in there? Did you try to like did you have bad depth perception and think you could fit? Well? No, too early. Did you go too late? Did they speed up? Like this kind of sounds like it's probably

John Shull 1:17:58

operator at Chinese astronaut I just couldn't see. Well. I just couldn't see what was going on. No, no, it was pretty simple. I my wife darted in. And I figured I'd have enough time. And the person on the other end. Either didn't see me or just didn't care and pushed at a faster pace than I thought was gonna happen. And I got like my right arm trapped. And you know, I was able to get it out. But then I get hurt for a quick second. And I you know, but by then my wife was calling me the idiot because I was supposed to wait. You follow her? And this person was long gone. So at the end of the day, you're right. I look like an idiot. And I will probably was the

Nick VinZant 1:18:39

I mean, there's a revolving door. You can just wait. Or you can just wait for a second. It's not even that long. You can just like wait for like, and then you get in the next side. It's like

John Shull 1:18:49

driving on the highway. Right? You see an opening in a lane, you go for it. And that's what I did. But I crashed.

Nick VinZant 1:18:56

crashed and burned. Yeah, that's your fault, man. Yeah, well, my number three is a firm handshake. Okay, good handshake. Now, it can't be they can't be trying to overgrip you they can't be trying to show like, ah, they can't do that. But a good solid in their firm handshake.

John Shull 1:19:15

Do you remember through all the handshakes you've given or have gotten? Like the ones that have been absolutely terrible? Yeah, yeah. I,

Nick VinZant 1:19:26

I categorize them into three different things. Actually, I categorize them into several different things. There's the limp one. But full grip, like they got your whole hand. They've got the location and the placement correctly, but it's a limp one, then you've got somebody that maybe is going to grab too much on the fingers or too much on the palm like they kind of miss it. Then you've got the people that will hit you with a firm handshake, but they're not going to look you in the eyes. That's the one that that almost sticks with me the most is like, oh, but you didn't do that. And I've had a few people who try to do Like crush it, but I go rock climbing. So it's fairly, you know, you're not usually going to outgrow me, because I have fingers straight.

John Shull 1:20:08

Yeah, you do. My number two green flag is people who do not look you in the eyes during conversation.

Nick VinZant 1:20:18

I don't know, wait a minute, they don't look you in the eyes when that'd be a red flag.

John Shull 1:20:24

Or I'm sorry, they do not don't do I apologize?

Nick VinZant 1:20:27

I think most people do. Don't most people do that now.

John Shull 1:20:30

No, not really.

Nick VinZant 1:20:33

My number two is along those lines. But it's different. And it's something that I've only noticed his apparent. Mind. Number two, green flag is eye contact with children. If somebody is talking to a child and bends down to get eye to eye with them. That's somebody who's just taken putting some time and effort.

John Shull 1:20:52

Or it's creepy. Could be one of the two.

Nick VinZant 1:20:54

I don't think that that's creepy. I think that that's like, you're talking to the child you're getting down there and having a conversation with them on their level, as opposed to talking at them. You're treating them like a person.

John Shull 1:21:07

So a stranger kneels down to talk to one of your boys. You're gonna be okay with that.

Nick VinZant 1:21:12

Strangers don't do that. Strangers are creepy.

John Shull 1:21:16

Okay, all right. I mean, I'm just saying, Man, fair enough. I'm sure number one. Somebody who listens

Nick VinZant 1:21:24

to nobody listening to John, no way you feel like people aren't listening to you, man.

John Shull 1:21:28

No, but I think I think that's the most important quality that somebody can have, physically or emotionally or mentally whatever, is just being a good listener. And it's very easy to see that green flag even if you don't know that person. Because you can just tell if they're, you know, if they're being a good listener. That's that it's, I don't know, that's, it's fantastic. And it may be a week number one, but it's to me, it's you know, you can't find enough good listeners. What? See, yeah, well, while he's doing this fucking podcast, you know, for four and a half years, five years now whatever it is.

Nick VinZant 1:22:06

I think it's you're going to agree with my number one and then realize that it is actually number one. My number one green flag is if animals like

Summer Spectacular

Fireworks, Candles, and a Special Top 5. It’s out first annual Summer Spectacular! Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss and Fireworks Show Designer Phil Grucci join us to talk how fireworks are made, setting off one million fireworks at once and the best fireworks shows. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Off Brand Products.

Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss: 01:20

Fireworks Show Designer Phil Grucci: 36:03

Pointless: 01:06

Candle of the Month:01:26

Top 5: 01:33: 55

Contact the Show

Fireworks by Grucci

Fireworks by Grucci Instagram

Fireworks, Candles, and a Special Top 5. It’s out first annual Summer Spectacular! Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss and Fireworks Show Designer Phil Grucci join us to talk how fireworks are made, setting off one million fireworks at once and the best fireworks shows. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Off Brand Products.

Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss: 01:20

Fireworks Show Designer Phil Grucci: 36:03

Pointless: 01:06

Candle of the Month:01:26

Top 5: 01:33: 55

Contact the Show

Fireworks by Grucci

Fireworks by Grucci Instagram

https://www.youtube.com/user/PyroSpectaculars (PyroSpectaculars YouTube Channel)

https://twitter.com/pyrospectacular (Pyrospectacular Twitter)

https://www.pyrospec.com/ (PyroSpectacular Website)

Artificial Intelligence (A.I) Safety Expert Dr. Roman Yampolskiy

Artificial Intelligence (A.I) is building the future. But will it be a paradise or our doom. Computer Scientist Dr. Roman Yampolskiy studies safety issues related to artificial intelligence. We talk ChatGPT, the next wave of A.I. technology, and the biggest A.I. threats. Then, we take a look at “society” for a special Top 5.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy: 01:50

Pointless:31:14

Top 5: 57:03

Contact the Show

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy Twitter

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy Website

Interview with Artificial Intelligence Expert Dr. Roman Yampolskiy

Nick VinZant: 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless, my name is Nick coming up in this episode, AI, and society

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 0:20

that but like really, really good at it like it knows everything about you everything you ever wrote, read it just amazing at predicting the next token. And if it keeps scaling, it becomes smarter than us. We don't know how to control it. So you can look at every single aspect of society today and basically see how it's not in any way prepared or preparing for this technology. When we think about someone super smart, we think of like Einstein, who was, you know, half a standard deviation away from smart people. We're not thinking something 1000 standard deviations above us.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is a computer scientist who specializes in artificial intelligence, specifically, the safety around artificial intelligence. I have to admit, when it comes to AI, I am really lost. But he does a great job of really explaining what's going on with AI. What's the risk and where we could be going in the very near future? This is computer scientist, Dr. Roman Yampolsky. For me, from an outsider's perspective, like I've followed AI, I don't really understand what it is. But it seems like in the last six months, everything has changed. Has there been some kind of development that has just catapulted it forward? Or what's kind of like what's happening in AI right now?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 2:10

Kinda Yeah, the last six months, a new product was released, which is the biggest model ever trained. Unlike previous 50 years of AI, it actually works. So everything we did so far was kind of like, oh, in this special case, it can play tic tac toe. This thing can do pretty much everything in different domains. It can translate, it can write essays, it can program it can throw things. So we finally dealing with something like aI from science fiction for movies, AI, people thought we're gonna have done we talked about creating AI.

Nick VinZant 2:47

Is this a big development like in the grand scheme of things for AI? Was this a hard thing to do? Or was this like, Oh, this is pretty easy. And the complicated stuff is next.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 2:58

It's not easy, it took a lot of compute. So we never had hardware this powerful, we needed special computers to be powerful enough, and we needed enough data to train them. So before internet, before everyone started posting everything online, we just didn't have datasets big enough. And same with Compute the idea of neural networks dates back to 1940s, artificial neural networks. But back then we just didn't have computers powerful enough to run those simulations.

Nick VinZant 3:27

So now we really kind of just have the technology in place to put this technology in place. Yep. And we're referring to chat is chat GVT, the name of a company, the name of the program, like I'm a little bit unclear on that.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 3:42

So the company is called Open AI. They use models of human brain loosely based on human brain, which are large collections of artificial neural networks, a large neural network simulating neurons in the human brain. The specific architecture which really makes it work well as a transformer, and the latest model they released is GPT four. So we have previous ones, we were not as powerful. This is the latest one. So chip GPT is kind of the public interface to get access to this model.

Nick VinZant 4:22

I kind of understand what it's doing right like I put in I want you to write me this paper writes me this paper, but from kind of a computer scientist perspective, like what is it doing?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 4:33

You know how to complete and your phone tries to guess the next word you're gonna write and just help you out by doing it. That but like really, really good at it like it knows everything about you everything you ever wrote, read it just amazing of predicting the next token. So good had had to create models for like, how computers work how chess works, so it can be really good at guessing what the next next statement will be in a program or next move in a chess game. But it's really just a very, very complex predictor of next word.

Nick VinZant 5:09

Does it understand? Or is it just really good at predicting?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 5:13

It needs to understand to predict at this level? So people argue about this word, what does it mean to understand? In terms of functionality, it's good enough to do things which if human did it would have no doubt the human understands?

Nick VinZant 5:28

Is this a good thing?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 5:29

If you want capabilities? Yes.

Nick VinZant 5:32

where's the where's that? What's kind of the bad part about it about it potential, we

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 5:35

don't really know what it's like thinking or planning on doing or how it works really well. And if we keep scaling, it becomes smarter than us. We don't know how to control it.

Nick VinZant 5:48

Obviously, you know, like, my mind immediately goes to like movies, right? That's the first thing that my mind goes to. Are those realistic scenarios? Like if this goes bad, how do you think that it actually goes bad,

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 6:00

so movies emphasize visual aspects of how bad it will get you have a physical embodiment Terminator killing people, this is just like that, but no robot bodies, just the intelligence, just the power of words and the Internet to manipulate the word, manipulate the world, get someone, bribe, blackmailed, to do things, maybe using nanotech, maybe using computer viruses, maybe using real viruses to do whatever it wants to accomplish.

Nick VinZant 6:31

Let's just say that right now for right now, when we look at chat, GBT, those kinds of kinds of technology, what do you think the impact is of that? A year from now? Five years, 10 years from now.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 6:42

So if we're freeze it in time, we're not going to release the next generation. Obviously, this is very impactful for economy, you can automate so many jobs. I mean, whole industries, pretty much don't need to be there, we can just use Chad GPT for this type of work. Long term, we don't really know, again, because there is not just kind of incremental improvements, but this exponential hyper exponential rates to get those systems to be as powerful as possible. So in a week, when our see more progress than we've seen in the year before,

Nick VinZant 7:17

do you think that we're kind of ready for this as a society? No. That's, that's what I thought the answer was going to be. Do you following up on that? Right? Do you think that the people who are in charge and I'm putting air quotes up there, right, the people who are making the decision so to speak? Have we really thought out like the consequences of this? What's ultimately going to happen? Are we kind of just like we made this new toy? Let's use it?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 7:46

Well, first of all, no one's in charge, really, politicians have no idea what's going on in the industry. Industry doesn't fully understand the social aspects. So it's all kind of separated interests, and they all care about their sub subdomain. People who are making those systems not not like explicitly designing them, but making them they don't really fully understand how they work either. They consider possibilities. They think about things like super intelligence and general intelligence, but usually they go let's, let's get a little closer to it. And then we'll figure out what to do we still want to monetize this next level of improvement. So certainly, there is very little thinking being done about how it's going to impact everything.

Nick VinZant 8:41

What part like if we, you know, we talk about Okay, so if we're not ready for this, this is such society, where do you think that we're kind of not ready for it?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 8:50

We have no legal framework for dealing with something like that in terms of copyright for creative outputs, art songs, movies, text, we have no responsibility for crimes committed or for patents granted, we don't really have economic safety net if this thing automates majority of jobs. It's not obvious how how we're going to pay for people who lost their jobs. So you can look at every single aspect of society today and basically see how it's not in any way prepared or preparing for this technology.

Nick VinZant 9:28

Do you think though is that the kind of stuff that like okay, well, we'll figure this out, right, like we always seemed as a society to have this attitude of like, we're gonna figure it out whatever problems coming we're gonna figure it out. Is this though something that could fall into that realm like all right, there's challenges but we'll we'll get it.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 9:46

Some of those definitely. I mean, if you want financial security, you can tax robot labor a labor redistributed firms funds. That's something government is good at redistributing money. The problem of control controlling the system itself is something we don't have any technical solutions for. We don't know how to control more intelligent agents. We don't even we don't fully know if it's possible or not, it seems like it may not be possible. So that's the one where I would say we're unlikely to easily solve it.

Nick VinZant 10:20

I'm a big numbers person in the sense that if you look at the AI technology that we have right now, and let's say one is, this isn't a real threat. 10 is like, man, we better watch out. Where do you think that we are kind of on that scale?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 10:36

Right now? Or what's coming next?

Nick VinZant 10:39

Let's let's do both.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 10:40

Right now, we're pretty safe. I mean, clearly, we have those systems, and we're all here, nobody died. So it's not a big deal. It will change social and economic situation, but it's not going to kill everyone. The next generation, we don't really know. It could be a slight improvement. It could be smarter than all of us combined. If it is, and we don't control it, then it's a 1011 12

Nick VinZant 11:01

When we look at AI in the general sense. So we have the chat GBT right now, where, what's the kind of the next couple of things that you see coming down the pipe?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 11:12

Oh, they just scaled their systems. So they add more compute, they add more data, train it longer, and it gets more and more capability. So you never probably heard about GPT two, because it wasn't that capable. GPT three people started writing about you had copilot for programming assisting programmers, now GBT forscan, a very general, lots of people found that useful for what they do. So it's it's the same level of progress continuous forwards into three years we can have human level or more capable systems.

Nick VinZant 11:44

The thing that I kind of don't really understand, right? It's like, okay, how do we get from the AI computer that's doing my homework, so to speak, to Skynet taking over the world, right? Like, how does that? How does that play out? Like, how does one become the other?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 12:00

So specifically with military, military is very interested in having their work automated, they want systems for detecting attacks for automated response. So they would place AI in charge of our, let's say, nuclear response. So all it has to do is decide that this is the right decision, we're under attack, or maybe we need to be first to attack to win the war. And you have nuclear war generated by AI decisions. But of course, this is just what we have today, the infrastructure today, plus the systems we have today. If you have a system, which is actually smarter than us a super intelligent system, I have no idea how it would go about killing everyone. I'm not that intelligent. That's the point.

Nick VinZant 12:42

Do you feel like the powers that be are listening to people like yourself? Are you kind of falling on deaf ears?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 12:49

So there is definitely more happening now there are conferences there are panels they're trying to listen, I'm not sure they have background to fully understand. So some of our leaders 80 years old, plus I don't know if actually use computers for anything. So it may be more up to the advisors to them to decide what's happening.

Nick VinZant 13:11

That's the kind of thing that worries me too. Right? It's like by the time that everybody understands the problem, it's is it too late to solve the problem?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 13:18

We'll see a simpler similar problems like cryptocurrency and governance of Bitcoin and things of that nature. It's been a decade and they haven't really produced any useful legislation in this space.

Nick VinZant 13:30

Is there any chance though, with stuff like this, right, because there always seems to be the thing in society that is going to be the next big thing, right? y2k was going to wreck everything. Cryptocurrency was going to change the world. And then it kind of just seemed to fade away, is there any chance that this is a flash in the pan.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 13:49

So AI has a history of kind of those boom, and bust cycles, you have aI winters where everything dies out? No funding? It seems unlikely at this point, just because the level we're already at, you can monetize so much of it for new companies, automation of labor, and the progress is not slowing down. But it's always possible. If we stop right now. And for the next 10 years, we don't have any progress. It doesn't really change anything, we have the same problem just in 10 years, we still don't know how to control it, we still don't know how to deal with it buys us a little time. So that will be wonderful.

Nick VinZant 14:24

A lot of the things that I wanted to kind of talk about are pretty much summed up for some with our listeners submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 14:33

Always what's the ultimate risk? Everyone dies?

Nick VinZant 14:37

But what would it be that would cause

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 14:39

that mistake in programming but decision malevolent actors doing it on purpose? I have a paper with like, taxonomy of different ways to get to dangerous AI.

Nick VinZant 14:52

Could you just real quick, like sum up some of those categories?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 14:55

So most people understand malevolent actors really well. So bad guy ISIS terrorists crazy is called decide to destroy the world and purpose. They use this advanced intelligence to help them achieve their goals.

Nick VinZant 15:08

What areas do you think in society are most susceptible to change from Ai?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 15:13

Like we have a lot of kind of boring, bullshit jobs, we can easily automate, and nobody would complain.

Nick VinZant 15:19

I think that but we would have to have this, you know, the difficulty that I kind of look at it from that side of it is like, right, but people have to have jobs. So what happens if it replaces everybody's job, right? Like, that's kind of, I think, the worry that a lot of people have.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 15:35

So that's the idea with unconditional basic income, where you tax this technology, tax those corporations making mega profits, and then you provide some sort of basic income for everyone enough to just exist, but maybe not making you rich, and then you can do extra work. If you're interested in making more.

Nick VinZant 15:55

What do you think will happen in the next five to 10? years?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 15:58

So I don't know specifically, it's very hard to predict with specific dates, it seems like we're gonna get to human level and quickly after the super intelligence, but how soul, it could be as soon as five years it could take 1020? We don't really know,

Nick VinZant 16:13

have I mean, has this kind of always been moving forward? In the background, though?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 16:18

It was, but much slower. I mean, it was kind of linear progress, not exponential, hyper exponential. People used to say it would be 50 years, 100 years before we see something like that. Now, not crazy. People are saying it could be a year or two.

Nick VinZant 16:36

What was your reaction when you started using it? The chat GBT,

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 16:39

I was very impressed. Especially, it's amazing that you can get basic model for free, which is like incredible cutting edge technology for everyone. And you can get like the very latest the best with internet access with plugins for 20 bucks a month,

Nick VinZant 16:54

did you want immediately jumped out as you as kind of the red flags about this kind of technology?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 16:59

Well, it does make up stuff like when you ask questions, which you really know answers to like, tell me about Dr. Yampolsky. And it just makes up complete nonsense. You notice that?

Nick VinZant 17:10

Why would it? Why would it do that? Why would it just make something up?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 17:14

It doesn't really know the difference between what is true and what is false. It just goes what is the most likely talking to complete the sentence. So if it says Dr. William Polsky has won an award for if the most common thing to win award for is chemistry, then it will say chemistry?

Nick VinZant 17:30

Have you seen any examples come out of it that would say like, Oh, that was a dangerous example, or like this is a problem.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 17:40

Or you can think about all sorts of situations, people asking for medical treatment, for example, what medication should I take for this or that and that can definitely give you bad advice. They trying to filter it out things like that. But there's so many ways to ask the same question in a different way to get it to answer that it still happens.

Nick VinZant 17:59

Do you think that this will be a thing that however it changes society? Do you think it will change it uniformly? Or will Pete there'll be big winners and big losers?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 18:06

Well, there are people who use it, who rely on it, and people who've never heard of it. So obviously, it's not going to be uniform for everyone. There is an advantage to being early to anything,

Nick VinZant 18:17

will there be certain demographics or certain areas of the world that you think like, oh, they're going to really benefit from this, and these, this area is going to get hit?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 18:29

Again, it depends on what level if we're talking about uncontrolled super intelligence, we all going to be killed uniformly, it's going to be very equal and diverse. If we're talking about just economic benefit from technology, where right now, obviously places with advanced computing infrastructure, advanced education will benefit more than, I don't know, Amish community. For example,

Nick VinZant 18:50

when you look at kind of the future of AI, what is a movie or TV show that you feel like, oh, that's probably what it would look like, and a movie or TV show, there's like, that's not the way this would work at all.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 19:03

So for short term, Black Mirror does a really good job of capturing a lot of kind of side effects of technology, we're gonna have virtual reality, mind reading, things of that nature, it's really quality. They have a lot of episodes, and each one is as good as a standalone movie. So that's a good example. As far as something not very realistic. I mean, there are aspects of all those like matrix talks about humans being used as batteries for energy. That's not the best way to get your energy.

Nick VinZant 19:39

So how do we kind of keep the bad stuff from happening and embrace the good stuff?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 19:43

As a wonderful question? I've been trying to solve it for decades. I don't know. I bring problems he'll give me solutions.

Nick VinZant 19:49

If you were to like hold right like you're out with your buddies though, talking about like, well, this might work. Is there anything that you could say Would that might work?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 20:00

So I always believe in self interest of people, if people truly believed that this is going to kill them, they would not push the button, they would not release it, they would not develop it and just be very happy enjoying billions of dollars they made with trippity. For

Nick VinZant 20:14

the companies that kind of make this are they going to end up controlling the world? I mean, until

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 20:19

they create this product, and the product is out of control, right? You don't control uncontrolled super intelligence. That's the important point. Initially, you think you're going to be the guy controlling the light cone of the universe for forever, you godlike. But reality is you're the first victim of this technology, the closest thing to it?

Nick VinZant 20:39

Do we understand what we have done? No. What part of it? Do you think like, oh, that's that's the part that we're failing to grasp

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 20:48

the difference in capability. But when what we are and what our systems will be if we can think about someone super smart, we think of like Einstein, who was, you know, half a standard deviation away from smart people. We're not thinking something 1000 standard deviations above us.

Nick VinZant 21:06

It's a level of intelligence that we wouldn't even be able to comprehend.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 21:11

Right? It would look kind of random to us. We won't understand what it's doing, or why is

Nick VinZant 21:15

there but I mean, are there when you look at like the current technology? Are there fail safes built into the system now? No. Why would anybody designed something and not build fail safes into it, though, that seems like

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 21:27

they don't know how to do it. But there are basic security things they protect the files from hackers, they have passwords, but it's not. The model itself, could be very dangerous. What they do they put filters on top of it, don't say this word, don't ever talk about this group of people. It's after the fact kind of filtering, it's not really changing the model to be safer. But

Nick VinZant 21:51

why? Okay, I'm trying to understand as much as I can, right, like, but why would we not be able to build fail safes into the system that would protect us no matter how smart this thing is?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 22:05

Because you can't outsmart something smarter you think, like, think about having a child, right? You can definitely control a small child, you can lock them, you can do all sorts of things where they can figure out how to unlock the door. But it's not the other way around dumber things cannot control much smarter things. I'm definitely

Nick VinZant 22:25

the one thing that I kind of feel like, like, maybe this is more a societal thing. Is there any concern in your mind that it will kind of take away our ability to think our creativity that will be I imagine some ways becoming like Wally, the movie Wally where there's just people sitting on a boat, you know, like the Are there any concerns in your mind? Or kind of in the intelligencia mind about that, like, well, what is this going to do for us as a society, even if it works perfectly for everything else?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 22:57

Absolutely. It's a huge concern, we see it with attention spans getting shorter and shorter, we see it with inability to read the map or just kind of participate in something complex, it's definitely happening.

Nick VinZant 23:10

Um, that's pretty much really all the questions. I mean, you're you are efficient, you are an efficient man, I

Speaker 3 23:17

was able to solve that. Oh, sorry, that,

Nick VinZant 23:21

but is there anything else that like you think that we should be talking about in regards to this?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 23:25

So your audience is very general, I understand there's another experts with experts, you can go deeper on certain aspects of it for general audience, I just want everyone to understand what is happening. And that so called experts have no idea what's going on. I think most general, populace people think that experts are really getting the situation they understand what to do. But it's not the case at all.

Nick VinZant 23:54

Kin just seems like such a bad idea to me. I can't get over that. That like we are potentially unleashing something that we have no idea what it's going to do. But to be fair, right would have you been viewed in amongst your colleagues like are you kind of a I don't know what word to use. Not alarmist but are, are you the guy who worries more? Like the most people in your position, share your opinions.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 24:27

So it changed 10 years ago, what I was doing was considered kind of crazy science fiction and very few people took seriously especially in academia. Now we see 1000s of top researchers all common embrace this concern. We just had a letter signed by all the top labs and top scholars saying yes, AI is an existential risk. So they they accept what I'm saying we just 10 years behind.

Nick VinZant 24:53

Do you think that people are starting to come around to it or are we just embracing this?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 24:58

That is more understanding of it. For sure, there are still people who disagree, they think there is absolutely nothing to worry about, or we can easily solve it. But so far we haven't produced any type of proof or even rigorous argumentation for why this product or service will be safe no matter at what level of capability,

Nick VinZant 25:18

what are you researching? Now,

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 25:20

I'm looking at different limits of what can be done in this space in terms of understanding their systems, predicting their behaviors, communicating with them without ambiguity, monitoring, next, training run and so on.

Nick VinZant 25:33

Couldn't we just, this is one of our listeners some basic questions, couldn't we just unplug it?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 25:39

That's the best question. I love it, we can also pour water on it, that completely solves the whole problem. Know, if a system is smarter than you, it will kind of anticipate you doing things like that. And stop you from doing that.

Nick VinZant 25:52

It's the how thing, right from is to think of like something like a

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 25:55

computer virus. Sometimes people get those, can you turn it off? Can you just I don't like having computer viruses? Let me turn it off. How would that work?

Nick VinZant 26:06

As someone who's had a computer virus on his computer, like it doesn't work very well,

it doesn't do it right.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 26:12

And this is a dumb thing with no intelligence, this would be smarter than you.

Nick VinZant 26:16

Um, okay, feet to the fire 10 years?

Where are we?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 26:23

Not sure? Maybe it's some sort of virtual environment. But could it be virtual heaven? Could the virtual health

Nick VinZant 26:30

if it was going to take over the world? Like when do you think it would do it? Like, oh, we would we would hit the technology, we would hit the technology by this year where I think that okay, maybe it could take over the world.

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 26:42

So I suspect, the next version of this large model GPT, five comes out, something will change. I don't know how soon that is going to be. They're claiming they're not training it right now. Probably takes about six months to train, it probably takes about a year to test it. So most likely not in the next two years. But we don't know for sure.

Nick VinZant 27:04

What does that mean, train it like, I don't understand what that means. So

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 27:08

we take this very large computer and tell it to go read everything it can on the internet, every book, every paper, every forum post, it reads everything and kind of tries to process that information. And that's how it gets smart.

Nick VinZant 27:24

Oh, so essentially, then it and it's able to predict what we're doing based on all of those other models. I think we may have let me just want to touch on this again. But is that a difficult thing for AI to do? Like we've reached high end AI at that point, or is like, this is just the easy stuff for AI?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 27:41

Well, it's kind of self learning is capable of, if I tell it go read this book, and come back and tell me about this book. And let's have a discussion. And let's write a short story inspired by this book. It can do those things it can learn without me explicitly programming things. And that's pretty cool.

Nick VinZant 28:01

What like okay, now I am kind of curious, like, when you look at kind of into the weeds about this, what are you and your colleagues talking about in regards to it?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 28:09

So it's not obvious that everyone being killed is actually the worst scenario, it could get much worse you can have when we're talking about malevolent actors, suffering risks, torture, things like that.

Nick VinZant 28:21

Is there any good news? Do you have any good

Unknown Speaker 28:23

news for

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 28:26

I mean, right now GPG for is only 20 bucks a month. So you can help them train the next generation with a payment.

Nick VinZant 28:33

So we can accelerate our doom to it. That's where all the really all the questions that I had, man,

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 28:41

it's interesting that normal people have a lot more common sense about those things. When I talk to average people, they immediately understand it, just like you, they say, Well, this is stupid, why we're doing it, then you talk to the brilliant experts, a lot of them don't have that same common sense.

Nick VinZant 28:57

That's with a thing of right. Like, how does that happen, though? How does that happen? That people like, the common people, so to speak, can immediately identify like, well, maybe we shouldn't do this. But then it just keeps going. Like, what is how does that happen?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 29:12

How we're trained scholar scholars to think independently to come up with contrarian solutions. So they do,

Nick VinZant 29:19

and then there's the money, right, but like, how did they ultimately make their money off of this?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 29:25

Well, it's very lucrative. I mean, every corporation wants to automate their call centers and make their video games more entertaining. I mean, if you can have this automated human like intelligence for $20 a month. That's pretty good for your business.

Nick VinZant 29:42

In the things, though, that it has done can people tell the difference?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 29:49

Oh, experts claim they can. Some studies show they can't. It's not obvious depends on the domain. So in some domains, It's like, humans are funny. We have stand up comedians, there is no stand up comedian chargeability. It's not funny. So it's obvious that it's like horrible at time jobs. In other domains like art. I'm not an expert in art. To me, it looks better than all the modern art I've seen. But I'm not an expert.

Nick VinZant 30:22

Can it be creative in the same way that we can be creative?

Dr. Roman Yampolskiy 30:27

I think it can. It's just people tend to discount how well it does, especially when they decide to compare it to the very best of humanity and sort of average people.

Nick VinZant 30:38

Yeah, I can see that

right, like, Okay, this isn't Shakespeare. Yeah, but it is Bill from accounting pretty well, right. Now. I want to thank Dr. Yampolsky, so much for joining us, if you want to connect with him. We have a link to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, tick tock, Instagram, and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. The YouTube version of this interview will go live on July 29, at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now, let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. I want to mention, though, that after going back and listening to this conversation, I completely understand that we sound like grumpy old man. But I actually, I actually feel pretty hopeful about the future. I think that there's always hope. Do you know what's going on with AI? Do you understand this whole chat GBT thing?

John Shull 31:45

Oh, I hate it. Well, let me let me rephrase that. I think that's okay for certain things. But I mean, if I was a college student, that's all I'm doing.

Nick VinZant 31:52

I feel like it could be a really good thing in the sense that it could kind of free us up from doing menial tasks, right? Like, how often do you do the same thing, write the same email, do the same thing like that? The only thing that I worry about is if it's going to reduce people's ability to think, like, Oh, you don't have to think anymore.

John Shull 32:11

I mean, I think it's hard to argue that social media has at least made the world lazy in terms of thought processes. And I feel like that's, that's kind of what chat GBT is doing, it's just another tool to make you lazier, you don't really have to think about it. And it does most of the work for you.

Nick VinZant 32:28

I think, though, that this is the difficulty that we face with basically any kind of technology, we are going to go to the least common denominator, no matter what it is, we are going to use it for probably the worst possible purpose of it.

John Shull 32:42

We always seem to go to the extreme, but then immediately go to the remedial bottom. I'm not even a fan for like kind of what you said in terms of it could eliminate some of the remedial tasks that people do. Because what does that do even even having to say write the same press release every month. Still, if you're writing it from from scratch, or even if you're using a template, there's still some kind of brain connections there.

Nick VinZant 33:06

I just think that this is part of a symptom of why people are so unhappy in their lives is that we are doing things that we are not designed to be really doing. Like we are hunter gatherers. We're not supposed to be doing accounting, I think it's against our nature. And we can't continue on this forever. We're just going to be more and more and more unhappy. Something has to kind of alleviate this from this spiral of just brain numbing.

John Shull 33:30

But you're not saying that chat. GBT is that tool, I hope

Nick VinZant 33:34

I think that something that will just free us up, to be creative again, to do those kinds of things, is something that we have to add, I think that we need to kind of get back to who we are.

John Shull 33:47

I would argue that besides chat, GBT, there's other AI induced technologies and programs. And if you keep picking your teeth or popcorn anymore, I'm gonna just be distracted.

Nick VinZant 33:58

There's, it's impossible. Once you get something in your teeth, you have to get that thing out of your teeth. You can't just leave it in

John Shull 34:04

there. Like now, I haven't even had any kind of anything that can get stuck in your teeth today. Now I'm like, man, but something stuck back in the molar back there because it's just feels a little weird. Anyways, I would argue that with the different AI technologies that we already have that work on our as a society, we'll never get back to that simple way of life.

Nick VinZant 34:24

No, I'm not talking about that simple way of life. I'm talking about the idea that we're not designed to do this. Like, I don't think that we, as a civilization were like, You know what the human body and brain really needs spreadsheets.

John Shull 34:40

I don't disagree with that. I just feel that we're we're way too far gone already.

Nick VinZant 34:43

I actually kind of think that in the next 50 years. We're either going like Book of Eli apocalypse, or we're going to paradise and there's not going to be any in between. But we also don't really like change that much. Any technology that we've had, we really don't like that much change. We'd like a little bit, but not that much.

John Shull 35:03

If you had to stick a knife to my throat right now and say, When do you think things are going to culminate in the world in terms of like the AI? millennia or whatever taking over I mean, I would probably say the next 20 to 30 years, we're gonna see some kind of gravitational shift.

Nick VinZant 35:19

I think we need something, people are really unhappy. Society is getting really frustrating. I think there has to be some big change, it's come about, do you want to talk about what happened in your basement? Um, this is the funniest thing that I truly take this, I find that the universe has a way of always just reminding you who's in charge.

John Shull 35:44

Sure I can I can dive into this first,

Nick VinZant 35:46

set it up. Let me set it up. Okay. So for people who are new to this podcast, John has been working on his basement for years. And he talks about his basement pretty much every day, in some form, or fashion, if a conversation with John last more than five minutes is going to bring up his basement. And it just got finished. Telling people what happened to your basement.

John Shull 36:10

First off, let me let me preface this by saying the person that did it, I listen to those podcasts. And I want him to know that, that I love them. I appreciate them. There's no ill will. And I've said that over and over. But

Nick VinZant 36:24

I'd like to thank them, I would like to thank them. Because if I would have been there, I would have laughed hysterically and immediately taking pictures of your face to see how enraged you are.

John Shull 36:35

So I've been I've been hosting ping pong nights the last few nights or the last few weekends or few weeks rather. And we were playing this last this past Friday. And it gets heated. I mean, you know, competitive people, and he was a last person you thought would have this would have happened to but I'm not even really sure what happened to be honest. But I he was going for a ball, maybe lost his balance and his elbow and half his body went right through one of my basement walls.

Nick VinZant 37:08

And ruins your brand new bass.

John Shull 37:12

It's gonna get repaired. They're a great group of guys. They're gonna make sure that you know, it gets back in fighting shape. But what's funny was so I wasn't angry. You know, I was I was I was in shock, because I thought it'd

Nick VinZant 37:25

be angry. So we didn't do it on purpose. No need to be angry. No,

John Shull 37:28

I wasn't mad. Like, you know, I was just like, oh, man, like, fuck, like, of course, this has kind of what you just said earlier. Like, of course, what I thought was funny, or what I thought was at least interesting. Looking back on it was more people were and it was a smoke. I think it was five people here. Every one of them was like, Oh, what is your wife? What is your wife gonna say? Did you tell your wife? What is she gonna do? Um, I just thought that was funny.

Nick VinZant 37:54

So because it's a great opportunity for I told you so. Right. You've been spending all this time all this money on the basement. And then this happens. You should have known better.

John Shull 38:03

Well, I gotta say this common. I married a great one. Because she, I told her and her first reaction was we'll get it fixed. Don't let it ruin the night.

Nick VinZant 38:14

Yeah, that's a good, that's the appropriate reaction. But I think that basically what happened with your ping pong table and basement is synonymous a little bit with what happens with technology, no matter how nice of an idea you have, no matter how good the ideal is. People are people at the end of the day, and we're going to, we're gonna fuck it up. We're gonna fuck it up. And we're going to do the one thing you didn't intend to happen.

John Shull 38:37

I mean, I like I said, I never thought it would have been him. I mean, no, you know, no offense, but I've run into the wall. Other guys have run into the wall, but never through the wall. And he just happened to hit it right on. And he's a great guy. So I you know, and he's a loyal listener of the podcast. And he, I know he feels terrible about it, but it happens and we'll get it fixed and, and we'll move on.

Nick VinZant 38:58

Well, the next time you see him shake his hand for me.

I just I love it. I love it. I love it.

I love it when people make like that happen. I really want to keep this thing. Nice.

John Shull 39:09

I got I got to tell you my wife's reaction, though. I knew she wasn't going to be all up in arms. You know? I mean, let's be honest. Some some women would have been down in the basement like screaming, I think right?

Nick VinZant 39:20

I don't think so. I think that most people have a pretty good reaction about things. See, I never the reaction. You think it is right. See?

John Shull 39:27

I don't think so. Like I think you say that because of the way you react to things like that. And I found out that my wife, this is the first time in a decade of knowing her after something like this reacts the same way that you react just Alright, whatever. We're not going to let it ruin the night. We'll move on and you know, it's not life or death. Like we'll get it fixed.

Nick VinZant 39:47

I really disagree with this. I think that most people have completely reasonable reactions. We're all pretty much wired the same in that regard. I think that most people are reasonable people just seem unreasonable because a couple of people ruin the whole thing. I think most people are pretty reasonable.

John Shull 40:06

Yeah, no matter what I mean, that's not what I was really. I wasn't saying that people are unreasonable. I

Nick VinZant 40:10

think that I think that you're trying to attack everybody else. I think you're trying to put down everybody.

John Shull 40:16

No, no, not at all. Nope.

Nick VinZant 40:21

Illusions I feel so you're not gonna use bail out? Do you want to do your shout out?

John Shull 40:26

Yeah, let's let's get to those where we

Nick VinZant 40:28

can I hate people since you hate everyone.

John Shull 40:31

I don't hate everyone. I actually I you know, I would, I would say, with confidence. I don't hate one person. And I don't think there's one person out there that hates me.

Nick VinZant 40:42

Oh, then you're not living your life, right, man.

John Shull 40:45

I mean, I treat people with respect and kindness. Why would you hate somebody like that?

Nick VinZant 40:50

I think you need to have at least one or two people who really dislike you.

John Shull 40:53

And maybe an ex girlfriend or something. But not like somebody that I met or or have dealt with in the last decade, probably.

Nick VinZant 41:01

I can think of a couple of people who I'm pretty sure hate me. I feel good about it. I really think that my life has improved, the more people who hate me.

But you're standing up for yourself.

John Shull 41:15

I mean, I know that I don't want to get I don't disagree with you. But I feel like you know, there's ways there's ways of sticking up for yourself. And that's one of the ways the other ways is through dialogue and communication and things like that.

Nick VinZant 41:28

Too much when people please your man. That's why your basement got fucked up. You got to set some ground rules like hey, look, this brace was brand new. I understand that everybody wants to win, but there'll be diving for balls into the wall. If your 290 pounds. You're not setting you see you got to have some you got to you need to by the end of 2023 have at least one person who hates you.

Unknown Speaker 41:47

I mean,

Nick VinZant 41:49

I think that that would change your life. Well, actually,

John Shull 41:51

there might be a couple people that have that think about it, but

Nick VinZant 41:53

get a couple more man. Okay. All right.

John Shull 41:57

Let's just give some shout outs here. Right? So

Nick VinZant 41:59

I'm a firm believer you got to have because like if you're if nobody's hating you then you're not doing anything.

John Shull 42:03

Here's some chat GBT shout outs for you. Okay, just kidding. I didn't do that. Nor would I ever. Say we'll start with Jen Thompson. Vince law. Aidan lane. Preston cosmos. Not sure that's a real name, but sounds pretty awesome. Good. I like it. Reston, Cosmos sound Ryan de Thomas. How do you feel about people that make sure to include their middle initial and their names?

Nick VinZant 42:32

Just in case by case basis. It's a really a case by case basis. It can be hit or miss. But generally you're going to my interest is piqued a little bit, right? Like that's a lot. I wouldn't say that's a red flag but like, Well, you better pay little attention here for a second.

John Shull 42:49

Let's see Chris Monetti Ernesto Cardenas I like that name Ernesto Ernesto. That's a good one. Chris go Gary Corbin Mae and Ethan Kaiser.

Nick VinZant 43:05

Yeah, I don't think that you can have really traditional names anymore. Like you can't name somebody Carl. Now.

Unknown Speaker 43:13

George.

John Shull 43:15

Once again, I feel worn out once again. I feel that names are kind of like fashion trends that go to come back a decade later they go they come back. Like as John dead. I think John's a dead name. Nick, Nick will never be dead and might not be popular right now. And I don't even know if it is. I think it is but

Nick VinZant 43:37

it'll stay at about the same level that I think that it's always been there's always going to be a few but not a

John Shull 43:42

lot. You know, I feel like Michaels David's though but they'll always be there.

Nick VinZant 43:49

But you can name somebody like I could look at a baby and be like Michael. David, could you look at a baby and be like, That's Carl.

John Shull 43:58

Right. I have some kind of issue with Carlos right now.

Nick VinZant 44:02

As the first name that comes to my mind like, what are we going to name him?

Unknown Speaker 44:07

Carl?

Nick VinZant 44:10

What no naming him Carl. I mean, or like maybe the female equivalent would be like Kim.

Kim, she looks like a Kim. Yeah,

John Shull 44:23

I actually I think I work with at least for Kim's so there's a lot of Kim's in my office.

Nick VinZant 44:28

I don't know if I know any Kim's Well, I don't know a candidate. I don't know a single camera right now.

John Shull 44:35

I mean, you know one, I think he runs North Korea.

Nick VinZant 44:39

That's bill I believe. What was his name? Kim Jong moon. That's his account.

John Shull 44:44

Had to throw it out there. All right. Let's see. Let's move on Turner.

Nick VinZant 44:47

I knew a Kim Turner. That's it. Kimberly.

I feel different. Kimberly. I feel different about Kim.

John Shull 44:53

I mean, it's the same name, Kimberly Kim. No, it's not Kimbo. Because the

Nick VinZant 45:00

same doesn't have the same number of letters in it. No, it's not the same name.

John Shull 45:05

Kimbo Slice. Rip his parents meant to name him Kimberly or Kim and they just end up ended up with

Nick VinZant 45:11

I don't think that I think that's a nickname. Let's that brings. Do you know, do you know anyone? solely by their nickname like you don't know what their real name is?

John Shull 45:23

Kay Beausoleil? No I know I guess I'm not somebody personally, I am not hip enough to have friends with only nicknames.

Nick VinZant 45:34

I knew one guy. One guy that I his name was his nickname was boodle, and I wasn't sure what his real name was. Turns out his real name was Nick. Oh, Buddha. Buddha was like a family thing. Kimbo Slice

John Shull 45:49

his real name was Kevin Ferguson, just FYI. For my firstborn, we couldn't come up with a name so we put a March Madness bracket up in the in our hospital bedroom or hospital room and let the nurses kind of pick

Nick VinZant 46:03

that was wow, you can't even make a decision with your own children. That's ridiculous

John Shull 46:08

that it was it's you'd have to MIT before you're too

Nick VinZant 46:10

much of a people pleaser for your first child you should damn well have that name picked out that's the progeny of your family lineage

John Shull 46:19

wasn't even me wasn't even me. I'm not even gonna take that when I was all my wife All right, I have your

Nick VinZant 46:24

you have you're not putting your foot down enough. You're not that's why you need to get more people that hates you. You're too much of a people pleaser. What's everybody like? What's everybody want to name my child? What do you want to name your child John?

John Shull 46:37

I mean, we we took it into consider it's not like we we went with what they chose. But you know, we went in consideration and chose the most popular. No, no, no, no,

Nick VinZant 46:50

you shouldn't be making the decisions that regard your life. Anyway, that's why you're paying by us why your basement got fucked up.

John Shull 46:58

No, my baseball got fucked up because I'm I'm not afraid to hope you didn't

Nick VinZant 47:01

set priorities.

John Shull 47:03

What was I going to do? Stand against the wall and make sure he didn't run into it?

Nick VinZant 47:07

Know what you should have said? He's like, Look, I just got this basement finished. Let's not fuck it up.

John Shull 47:12

Oh, I mean, that was probably said and it still happened.

Nick VinZant 47:15

You either fail to plan or plan to fail.

John Shull 47:19

It is. It's I don't even know why I'm going back. It's always gonna come back to be my fault.

Nick VinZant 47:25

Yeah, doesn't mostly like that is the truth of life. No matter where you are. You're the one who got you there.

John Shull 47:32

Let's see. Are you a bath or a shower die?

Nick VinZant 47:36

I don't know if I've taken a bath in 20 years. Have you wanted to know? I want to get out of there. I don't enjoy being hot in hot tubs like me like let's go the hot tub sounds awful to me. Oh, not wasting my time in a bath. Are you a soaker? I just don't that's not generally a thing that men do. Like, you know what I really need to do just sit in the bath.

John Shull 48:03

No, I'm not a soaker. But you know, back in the day, and I would do like if I had access to one I would do it every day is like, like a steam room. It's it's awesome. There's no, I would actually put that on maybe the top 10 things that I enjoy the most is like a good theme room like a good steam. Like we're you can just feel the you can just feel the fat sweating out of you. Well, you're

Nick VinZant 48:27

not actually losing any weight. So what you really seem to want to do is pretend like you're losing weight without actually doing anything. How can I feel like I'm losing weight while literally just sitting here?

John Shull 48:37

I mean, we talked I mean, isn't that kind of the theme of the show? Dream? That's a dream AI.

Nick VinZant 48:44

Right. So wait a minute, are you taking baths? When's the last time you took a bath?

John Shull 48:50

Um, probably I mean, within the last five years. It's been a couple of years. But you know, every now and again, it's nice when you put in some bath bombs. They'll get the water nice and hot. It's just nice to soak sometimes.

Nick VinZant 49:05

I just can't. I just can't even imagine it. Like I like getting in the water. But I don't want to get in my bathtub and just be laying there. Like sitting in there. Just

John Shull 49:15

I mean, now that I have children who are really weird to me, foreign three. I can barely find more than 10 minutes for a shower when it's not 2am we go.

Nick VinZant 49:26

God I just I know that you've been like our top five is coming up. And this has been what John has been waiting for it just to be a cranky old man and complain about

John Shull 49:33

budgeting. I can't

Nick VinZant 49:35

shitting my bras with nobody bothering me.

John Shull 49:40

Anyways, I mean,

Nick VinZant 49:42

kids today one kid walked on my lawn.

John Shull 49:46

Alright, well, let me ask you the second question. So we can

Nick VinZant 49:48

I just want to read my book about submarines. And

John Shull 49:52

speaking of we're going to talk about that in a minute. Oh, yeah. All right. Well, rank these melts McFly. verse from what is

Nick VinZant 50:01

it? Wait a minute.

Let's hear it. Let's hear how you say it. You've already done it. Milk. Milk.

Milk. You I feel like you're slipping in a in their milk.

John Shull 50:16

Well, that's you right now. You rent these milk flavors bail me

Nick VinZant 50:22

out. Washing me out milk, and I am a a

John Shull 50:27

chocolate. vanilla or vanilla. Chocolate regular or strawberry.

Nick VinZant 50:33

Well strawberries last I don't trust people with strawberry tendencies. I don't get chocolate is obviously number one. And then I don't know if I've had like actual milk in yours like oh, just milk.

John Shull 50:50

What do you want? I was health freaks you drinking almond milk soy milk.

Nick VinZant 50:54

I drink when my wife buys

Unknown Speaker 50:55

Oh, that's yeah, you are?

Nick VinZant 50:58

No Oh, that's what she buys. It's probably what I would drink anyway. But I'm just not somebody that's like, I'm thirsty. Give me some milk. Like that's not thirst quenching or tastes like milk is I would that would be my last drink choice. Honestly. I mean, if we're looking at like water, pop, alcohol, soda juice. Milk, like milk is last on that list.

John Shull 51:22

I mean, it's I would probably put it above pop, but pop is more enjoyable to drink. But I drink more milk them pop on a regular basis.

Nick VinZant 51:33

Meal. Man I A ULK.

I feel just that's how you say it. Am I a you? Okay, no,

John Shull 51:40

just made me think of that. As Super Troopers get me out. You know, faster going me out? Yes. So

Nick VinZant 51:47

that's such a good under it. That's such an amazing thing where somebody can make that kind of movie and then all of their other movies were like not any good. Like, that's a like, how could you do I did this one thing really well, to me, that would be like dunking a basketball and then never ever in your entire life doing it again. Like I just did it once. And I never was able to do it again. Like that would be really strange to me.

John Shull 52:11

All right. Well, speaking of submarines, we talked about this on the last episode as they were searching for these poor people coming to find out that they were literally dead within like hours of going missing. Because their submersible imploded, which is an IF for those of you who may not have listened or don't know what I'm referring to, there was a billionaire diving expedition that there's a company that owns a submersible that basically will take you to the ruins of the Titanic. And I don't know if this is going to come out on Wednesday, what the 28th. But by now, it would have been two weeks or so since the Summersville went missing. They were looking for it come to find out within a couple of days, basically, there they heard a large implosion, the new US Navy did at the bottom of the ocean. And basically, it's like a pressure cooker. And without getting to gravity, you can imagine what happened, I'm sure. And yeah, all five people are dead. So in saying that, I have a few questions for you one. And I don't really think we talked about this last episode, because it was still kind of breaking and we didn't really know what's happening. Would you ever go in a submersible like that? No. To anywhere in the world, even even if even at let's just say 1000 feet down? Would you do it?

Nick VinZant 53:31

If I had a pool that was 10 feet deep, I would not get in a submarine to go to the bottom of my pool. All right. Nope, not doing it.

John Shull 53:41

I found it kind of fascinating that there were no windows in the submersible. It was controlled by basically like a Logitech PlayStation controller.

Nick VinZant 53:51

That's what it was. Right? Like that's the kind of thing that I got think that that a lot of stuff is still coming out. But this doesn't seem to be a very well designed or maintained thing. Like maybe somebody should have been checking on this a little bit. But that's not the kind of thing that like there's government regulations

John Shull 54:08

now because it right because it was probably have something that was owned by a billionaire, and it was a private company. And you know, it was marketed as we can take you there. And I'm not other than having a business license and all that. I don't think that in I don't think you had to be regulated, which is insanity to me. But I wouldn't get in one of those things now. But before before it's kind of brought to light, how dangerous some of these submersibles are, I probably would have entertained it.

Nick VinZant 54:35

How many books on submarines? Do you have?

John Shull 54:37

Way different kinds of submarine? How many more submarines?

Nick VinZant 54:41

Okay, but how many? You're dodging the question.

John Shull 54:44

I mean, I probably I don't know 10 To 20 Probably. That's how a lot of different stories though. Okay. I just have 20 books about the submarines like there's stories and things from whatever doesn't I think one

Nick VinZant 54:56

book on submarines is enough. You only need one One book on submarines, right? Like if you've got more than one self help book, it's not working for you. Listen, you should never buy a second help self help book.

John Shull 55:09

Let me put it this way. Some people are enthralled with airplanes. Some are enthralled with cars. I mean, I like cars I like you know, for fast cars, but I've always just always been in thrall with submarines. I don't know why. But the thought of going a mile under the ocean and a tin can. Like it's just, you know, just nuts to me. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 55:32

it is to me, too.

I didn't have no desire to do that whatsoever.

I did see a scientist was talking about like, if I didn't understand what an implosion really was, I thought that they would be like, drowned is like, No, you're basically incinerated? Like there would be nothing left of them but cells of their body. There's nothing left at all.

John Shull 55:51

Yeah, because the right if I'm not mistaken, it's yeah, the the pressure just literally implode you like from the inside out. But Lisa was gone isn't person. Yeah, at least it was you know, and I'm not trying to bring light to this. But at least it was quick, right? Because the alternative, I guess would have been for maybe like a slow leak or something and then maybe the suffocate or even a drown. So I guess at least I mean, I don't even know if they would have known what was happening. Right? It probably was just an instant, you know, then it's over. I would

Nick VinZant 56:22

think that like no matter what I feel like whenever something happens, you always see signs of it kind of happening. Nothing ever just said old Samuel Jackson thing like shit just doesn't happen takes time. It takes effort. Maybe it's suddenly like, it tipped the line suddenly, but it always leading up right. Like there's always things that I think a lot of people who have maybe gotten on this job or have come forward and been like, this thing shouldn't have been carrying people.

John Shull 56:49

Right, but but nobody was gonna say that beforehand. Right? It's always when tragedy strikes that they're like, oh, maybe maybe that we shouldn't have you know, maybe we should have inspected that bridge. Mazza move on to some things that we can complain about now.

Nick VinZant 57:02

Okay, so this is a list that John has probably been waiting for his entire life, which gives him a chance to complain about kids today and all the modern ills of society, top five things that are ruining society. And we're not talking about big things, like major issues, just little things. I wish you'd really do top five little things that are ruining society.

John Shull 57:22

Yeah, like we're not talking about politics or things like that, you know, or, or clunker. Climate change. Yeah, we're, this is clearly a fun but real top five. So in saying that, I'm going to start my number five off with let's go fast food as my number five.

Nick VinZant 57:43

Yeah, I mean, that's probably one thing that you could say is like, that's really probably bad for all of us. I mean,

John Shull 57:49

right. So unless I give credit to the companies, right, like McDonald's, Burger King, they tried coming out with salads, till you realize the salads are just as bad as having a double cheeseburger.

Nick VinZant 57:59

My number five is abbreviating words. gwoc. Doc, I, that just drives me insane. I think that that's ruining society.

John Shull 58:10

I have something like that a little further up on the list. So I'm going to

Nick VinZant 58:13

have that higher.

John Shull 58:14

I do. Yes, Bull.

Unknown Speaker 58:15

That's bull. That's bold and put it

Nick VinZant 58:18

higher. Okay. All right. Number four.

John Shull 58:23

This may piss off a lot of people when I'm going to say televangelists?

Nick VinZant 58:28

Oh, yeah, I think everybody pretty much agrees that that's a bad idea.

John Shull 58:31

Right? You know, and I'm only picking this person out because he's seen it. He I think he's the most famous by Joel Osteen, who clearly probably is not a very good person and has made billions of dollars. But yet he's on TV every Sunday morning. And I feel like you know, it's I don't know, I just all the people that that flocked to that message and watch it, it's like, what are you doing?

Nick VinZant 58:55

I think that you can kind of see that in a larger sense that there is a rise of the charlatan seems to be coming forward, the people who are doing something and saying something only for the purpose of making money, regardless of what it does to other people, like the charlatans, or there's a rise of the charlatans in our society. Now, I think

John Shull 59:14

I 100% agree with you on that.

Nick VinZant 59:17

My number four is celebrities. I'm sick of it.

I'm sick of it. Sick of all of it. I

don't want to hear about him. I don't want to see him. I'm tired of all celebrities.

Tired of it.

John Shull 59:27

Once again, I have that a little higher up on my lists. So my number three is lazy language, which is kind of what you were alluding to. But, you know, it's for me, it's not only talking to somebody where you know, I mean, I've had some I've had some people say things that I've never even heard of like, like are Oh TfL like and things like that. Oh, I'm not sure what that one means. rolling on the floor. laughing

Nick VinZant 59:57

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm okay with that kind of stuff

John Shull 59:59

of you. ever had somebody say, you're making me lol in person?

Nick VinZant 1:00:06

He can't say that stuff. You can't say it's

John Shull 1:00:08

you deserve to be hit with a steel chair you say that but I didn't I didn't

Nick VinZant 1:00:13

see. Because you're a people pleaser, you got to put your foot down a

little bit more, you got to let the people know, I'm

John Shull 1:00:21

pretty sure I would have been fired from my job. If I would hit people with steel chairs but or maybe I will get promoted. I have no idea.

Nick VinZant 1:00:28

Maybe you're in the wrong job hidden people steal chairs in a different line of work is completely acceptable.

John Shull 1:00:33

I will say that the the laziest language that just kills me as these, you know, text message language where, you know, it's and is like just an N for you know, your you are, are our numbers instead of letters. It's just kills me texting to me already, even though I do it. You know, it's mature the majority of what I do. But texting, lazy texting is something that I think has ruined society more than, than most things. Okay. All right, I'm gonna sit on my chair now.

Nick VinZant 1:01:08

And guy once you go yell at some clouds, I use damn clouds covered on my my number three is choices. I think that we have way too many choices. I think that we need to go back to having less choices for things.

John Shull 1:01:24

That's a good one. That's for sure. But yeah, I mean, I think choice. So I think it's part of the way we are as a society now where choices have were a good thing because it gave everyone an option to get something they liked. But I feel like we're coming. We're circling now. Right? We're on the other side of it to where there's so many choices for some things that now it's just a convoluted market. And you can't even some people that are simple, people can't even get simple things. Or vice versa. Complex people can't even get complex things. Because it's all like just all this is fucking mash. Just a mishmash of shit now.

Nick VinZant 1:02:01

I think that there's too many choices in that. When we were growing up. You just had to suffer through some stuff. Yeah, I mean, I think that that's an ability that you need to learn in life is like, no, no, no, you can't just go do the next thing. You got it. You got to eat some shit. Yeah, you got to eat it. And you got to write it. This is what you get. This is what you got. Okay. Wish number two

John Shull 1:02:21

semana. So it's kind of three things, but I'm trying to combine it into one, because it's all along the same lines. But I have celebrity bullshit, terrible reality TV and billionaires.

Nick VinZant 1:02:36

Like I agree with all that. First of all, it kind of leaves it ruined.

John Shull 1:02:39

Now I'm gonna go through all three and why they all pissed me off one reality TV show is garbage. They're all either has been or never will be as on these reality TV shows, especially the celebrity ones. Billionaires there shouldn't there's no room for a billionaire class in a economy. And there's hundreds of 1000s of them and to celebrities alike. And I'm talking about the celebrities that have all come about because of social media in the last decade, people that just, you know, there's some, I mean, there's some that, like, I don't want to call names, because I don't want to get us in trouble. But there are some viral sensations, we'll call them. I have no idea why they're famous. Because they posted one video of them lighting themselves on fire, and that's okay. I mean, it just pisses me off. I mean, I'm just gonna stop there. But yes, that's my number two in a nutshell.

Nick VinZant 1:03:36

I really wasn't paying attention. I was just kind of waiting for that whole thing to end. That's fine. Like, oh, he's gonna go, he's gonna not roll while I did it. No, no, it's fine. started thinking about what I was going to have for dinner.

John Shull 1:03:47

Um, I hope it's a big pile of shit.

Nick VinZant 1:03:51

My number two is comparison. I think that comparison, in some ways is ruining our society. In the past, you could be pretty good at something and you could take pride in that. Now you're automatically kind of exposed to everybody else who is better at something than you are. And you didn't have to know notice that before. I think comparison is kind of ruining the joy that we used to feel in our lives about being kind of good at something. We just see how much now we just see how much we suck compared to other people.

John Shull 1:04:19

Well, I mean, you know, get off social media, you won't have to worry about that.

Nick VinZant 1:04:24

There's no way to get off social media

John Shull 1:04:26

is life speaking of that's my number one. Social effing media.

Nick VinZant 1:04:35

Yeah, I don't really have that much of a problem with social media. My number one is the algorithm. I think algorithms are ruining our lives because they dictate them entirely. I don't think that social media is the problem. I think the algorithm is the problem.

John Shull 1:04:47

Kinda what you said earlier about choices. You know, when we were growing up, we didn't have social media, and we still had friends. We were still able to get things do things seem worldly even if we weren't The instant gratification of social media. It's ruined everything. Like it's, you know, I mean, how excited were you when you were a little Nicky? Well, you probably didn't do this because you were a weird kid. But you know, you would send away for a toy or something, or a magazine, and you had to wait two weeks to get it. And you just waited every day for the postman to come by smoking a cigarette to put it in your mailbox. And you never did. Until that one day.

Nick VinZant 1:05:29

I didn't really grow up like that. My parents were always just like, you're not getting it. Oh, well, I didn't get like you're not getting anything. Like, Hey, you want this thing? Well, you're not getting it. Let's go get a job at the age of six. And that's why I started mowing lawns at eight man. I wanted a new bike. My dad was like, I don't care if your bike doesn't work. You want a new one? Go get a job. So I started mowing lawns.

John Shull 1:05:54

I'm just saying, you know, this all goes to a bigger argument for me, but we need to slow down. You know, I think that's one thing that our forefathers and other other generations knew that they didn't know at the time. was slowing down as okay.

Nick VinZant 1:06:11

It's a weird thing that the older you get, the more you realize your grandparents were right. Yeah. Oh, yeah, they kind of had the basics are really gonna governs life. Um, I'm gonna start my animal and mentioned I really thought about putting this on my top bought one of my honorable mentions animals. I think we've traded pets for people. I think we've gone a little bit too far. Pets are great. I have a pet to great dog. But it is a pet, not a person. I think we've gone too far with that.

John Shull 1:06:38

But see, I'm gonna call you out because earlier you said about hunters and gatherers. And going back to that time. And pets were a large part of that

Nick VinZant 1:06:48

gathering you're taking but you're taking that like literally, I'm taking I'm talking about it in the figurative sense that like like we are designed. We're designed a certain way. And we are not necessarily built for the modern society that we have created.

John Shull 1:07:02

I think pets have gone too far. But not not the like I'm okay with the normal pets. And when I say normal, I mean like the dogs and cats is these people that are glorifying having a snake that they think no, that's name because they stick a rat on a counter. And it eats it and they're like, good job, little Bobby. Little Carl. Like no, it just wants to fucking food.

Nick VinZant 1:07:25

What do you Well, I mean, that's any animal dude. That's what we're like to

John Shull 1:07:28

we can we can train some animals to sit like, you know,

Nick VinZant 1:07:32

they just want the food to they're not doing it. And

John Shull 1:07:35

you can play devil's advocate on this one. I'm right. I

Nick VinZant 1:07:38

think that you're taking an attack and people's patrols in pets. I'm fine with people having any kind of pet that they want within reason, right? But I don't think that you should treat that pet as if it's a human being it's not think you got to put people first

John Shull 1:07:51

and I'm okay with treating some animals like, you know, humans, but not most.

Nick VinZant 1:07:58

What do you name like a snake? Like, what if I don't know anybody who has a snake like what do you name it? You can't get like, what do you like? Frank? Frank the snake? Like what do you name? An animal like that?

John Shull 1:08:11

Slither? Snake Plissken

Nick VinZant 1:08:17

as a video game, right?

John Shull 1:08:19

Oh, man, it's Kurt Russell's character and oh, God, not come to LA

Nick VinZant 1:08:25

from New York.

John Shull 1:08:26

Yes. Get from New York.

Nick VinZant 1:08:27

Never seen that movie. That's one of those movies that like now, the time has passed. I'll never see that movie. They don't care what's happening. What's else in your honorable mention?

John Shull 1:08:38

I mean, my intervention was pretty conclusive. I don't are my top five and I don't you know, keeping a kind of fun based. I don't have too many more. I put opinion based journalists. But that's kind of to a serious, like a serious tone.

Nick VinZant 1:08:54

Like that's really ruining society. We don't need to get into like, that's really fucking people.

John Shull 1:08:59

I had the only other one I had was tattoos. But like, I'm fine with tattoos. I don't care what people do. I but I do feel like some people are, are overdoing it with tattoos.

Nick VinZant 1:09:11

Oh, everybody's always got to take something too far. But

John Shull 1:09:15

But do I really care? Do I think it's ruining society? No, but I do think people are getting a little carried away with it. But who am I? Who am I to say?

Nick VinZant 1:09:23

Well, any kind of I think attention seeking behavior is kind of bad for society if you're doing something for the attention of it rather than because you want to be doing it. Think that's always kind of going to have a bad outcome.

John Shull 1:09:34

You know what now that one more that I'm thinking about it a little more as vapors to what's wrong. Well, I mean, smoke a cigarette, watch. Cow my words we may not be doing this podcast in 10 years, but they're gonna keeping they're gonna come to find out that vaping was was more dangerous than actually smoking a cigarette. I'm telling you it's gonna happen.

Nick VinZant 1:09:59

My grandpa you to say everything in moderation including moderation.

Just how I like to live my white life.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:06

Oh, okay,

Nick VinZant 1:10:07

that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a rating or review. Just a couple of quick words really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the tiny things that just seem to be ruining society for you