How Drone Shows are Made with Drone Show Designer Grant Reichardt

Designing and piloting a drone show is no easy task. It takes hundreds of hours of preparation to control thousands of drones that all need to move in pattern so precise, it comes down to the centimeter.

Drone Show Designer Grant Reichardt has worked on some of the world’s biggest drone shows. We talk how drone shows are designed, spending million of dollars on drones and what it takes to create a hologram in the sky.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, it’s Sparklers and Black Cats vs. Bottle Rockets and Roman Candles as we countdown the Top 5 Types of Fireworks.

00:00 Introducing Drone Show Designer Grant Reichardt

01:04 Designing a Drone Show

02:56 A Very Special Type of Drone

06:56 When Something Goes Wrong

10:49 The Future of Drone Shows

15:15 Pointless

39:12 The Top 5 Types of Fireworks

Contact the Show

Aerial Illuminations Website

Aerial Illuminations YouTube

Aerial Illuminations Instagram

Interview with Drone Designer Grant Reichardt

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, drones and fireworks.

Grant Reichardt 0:20

You know, honestly, with when we started, that was something that we really had to figure out from the ground up. There's no, like, way to do with, we're talking beautiful animations and RGB colors, so they're they're tweaking colors to where even they can match skin tones. I can't say the, the specific number, you kind of keep the under wraps, but you're looking at the range in the multiple 1000s.

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, really helps out the show. So I want to get right to our first guest. This is Drone Show designer Grant Reichard, how do you design a drone show? Like, what goes into putting all of this together?

Grant Reichardt 1:07

Yeah, so honestly, it takes a lot of time to design a drone show. We're looking at about 80 to 100 hours. First off, as a site survey, we go off of a grid launch, and for grid launch, it's very specific dimensions. Let's say you're doing 150 drones, usually that would be about 10 by 15 meters. Each drone would have one square meter of space. So we need to go to a site, make sure that we can actually launch, and then we go through multiple storyboarding processes, where we're just kind of brainstorming, figuring out what they want to see. And once that's finished, we go ahead and submit those storyboards to our designers, who on Blender will go and spend, you know, some like 80 hours on there, and just building a complete show from scratch. We're talking beautiful animations and RGB colors, so they're they're tweaking colors to where it's even they can match skin tones.

Nick VinZant 1:57

So, when, like, when you design it from that standpoint, is a computer plotting the path of all of these drones, or does somebody have to go in there and, like, this drone is going to go here, it's going to go here, it's going to go here, it's going to go here.

Grant Reichardt 2:12

It's a completely hands-on process. It really is a person going and designing kind of maybe 3D models and placing drones at each spot, and it's a very substantial process, because they have to also think about how fast the drones are moving, how far they are apart, making sure that's a safe, safe distance. So these guys are spending, you know, incredible amounts of hours, very artistic, but also very technical job.

Nick VinZant 2:38

It sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Grant Reichardt 2:42

Yes, sir. Yeah, it definitely.. if I was doing it, it definitely would be with these guys. They're the best in the world at it, and they make magic happen. I mean, that's really the entire drone show processes. It just feels like magic. The

Nick VinZant 2:56

drones themselves.. like, is this the kind of thing that I can get at Best Buy, or are these very specialized?

Grant Reichardt 3:03

So, these are specialized drones. They're from our manufacturer, they're called in. They manufacture in South Korea, they're called Unified. They're an American company, and they're a specialty drone. You got to go talk to Robert, he's our contact over there, and he'll get you the drones if you need them.

Nick VinZant 3:19

So, how much is each one of these going to cost?

Grant Reichardt 3:22

Looking at around, I'd say around 3k So, yeah, so if you're doing these big, big shows, you're, you're, you're, you're racking up with a significant cost, right around that point. I'm not sure exactly, but it's right around that point.

Nick VinZant 3:39

So, then, like, I would imagine that is one heck of a capital investment when you're talking about drone shows. I think your guys' record is 10,000 drones.

Speaker 1 3:48

Yeah, it's pretty significant. It is significant.

Nick VinZant 3:53

I'm fascinated by the logistics of it, because it's not just programming where all the drones are going to go, but like, how big are these? How do you get them all to the show? Like, the logistics of it is what

Grant Reichardt 4:05

you know, honestly. With when we started, that was something that we really had to figure out from the ground up. There's no like way to do it, like, per se, where there's like, hey, you know, it's a burgeoning industry, so we really had to figure out the logistical end, and you know, we can't fly because we're transporting these drones with, you know, hundreds, sometimes 1000s of batteries, and the crew flies oftentimes. So, we'll have, you know, for a day of show, we'll have two pilots and a crew of maybe around, you know, for the average show, maybe around four people, and we're transporting sometimes during, like, let's say, for the week of Fourth of July, we're doing 20 shows.

Nick VinZant 4:44

Is are there, are there, there is there limits to the drones, like, for the most part, what can they do?

Grant Reichardt 4:50

Yes, so for sure, yeah, for the most part, they can fly up to about 400 feet by the FAA. What's great about that, if you got a relationship with. The FAA, we can fly higher than that, so the drones themselves, the limitations are mostly in flight time. You can keep adding drones as long as you have large enough space to launch from, so you're looking at our flight times around 12 to 14 minutes. I know we are looking to know the industry is looking to up that number. Our drones, we do anticipate in the near future to someday fly up to maybe around 20 minutes or so. Other than that, it really is wind speed weather. If it's raining, it's thundering, that can be an inclement to the drones themselves into the drone shows. So, we usually don't fly in crazy bad weather.

Nick VinZant 5:39

Do they have.. I mean, are they okay? This one can flash blue, this one can flash red. Like, what are there in terms of like projecting? What can they do?

Grant Reichardt 5:47

Yeah, so they are full RGB color. So one of my favorite designs we've ever done was, you know, I'm in Minnesota, and we love prints here. So for a drone show last year for Burnsville, we did 1000 drones, and we did a portrait of prints in the sky, and it's incredible, because it can, the RGB colors on our drones, I think this is what makes them really special, is that they can do skin color accuracy, like that's how close those colors can get, so you can put faces in the sky, and we did 10,000 drones once, too, so we did a bunch of different faces, images, and you can get skin tone, color, accuracy on those most drones. There's not really anything that we can't do. It's really, what can you imagine? And we'll put it in the sky. And I know there's new technology that are coming to drones. There's, we can launch fireworks off of drones, although our company has not done that personally yet. There's also lasers that are being attached to drones, and it, the industry really feels like it's so new that people are catching up to it, where almost the ideas are just like people are like so new to it, where they're like, well, we can do anything with this, it's pretty much a hologram in the sky. How

Nick VinZant 6:56

often will one of the drones just not work in a show? I mean, is the whole, if you've got 1000 drones up there in this intricate design, is the show ruined if one or two of them don't work?

Grant Reichardt 7:07

Yeah, honestly, if you're looking at 1000 drones, like one or two not working will not really ruin the design, you will really still be able to see the outline of one or two like move away. It really is kind of a percentage game where you know if you have, you have 150 drones and 10 fallout, and then you're kind of looking at, you won't be able to see as great of an image, of course. If you're flying 1010 go down 1520 you still will get a great image. Now, of course, our, our, our failure rate is very low. Those, these drones are bulletproof, they do a great job. They're kind of like the Toyota of drones. They'll keep on chugging along. Our failure rate is about 0.04% So we, for most shows, we're not even expecting a single fallout.

Nick VinZant 7:52

Your average drone show is going to have how many drones in

Grant Reichardt 7:57

it? I'd say the average drone show has around, I'd say 200 to 250

Nick VinZant 8:01

When you get more of them, are you just making the picture, so to speak, bigger, or can you make it more intricate?

Grant Reichardt 8:09

So, really, it's both. We can, depending on the site, that's kind of our constraint for how large we can go, but the adding more drones just means, like you said, it's more intricate. You get designs, you can move drones to really build out a hologram in the sky. So, once you get to that 1000 point, you're really doing full images, you're doing globes, you're doing people's faces. So, it gets to the point where you're looking up and you're like, man, I could not differentiate that from a image or hologram

Nick VinZant 8:41

when you're there, right, like when you're kind of on the ground, right next to it, does it look the same as what people see from the audience, so to speak? Yeah,

Grant Reichardt 8:51

it's definitely distorted, because the what's incredible about the design, as well, is that it's oriented to the audience itself, so a lot of people think that, you know, when they're seeing it, looks like a screen looks straight on, but what they're actually, what the drones are actually doing is they're tipping like this, and then orienting for the perfect viewpoint of a specific audience area. So, when we're seeing it straight on top of us, we're, we can kind of make out what it looks like, but we're more monitoring the stability of the drones themselves. So, like, the image kind of looks funky to me. If let's say I'm a co-pilot, I'm looking up and I'm monitoring the stability for the pilot, it just looks like sometimes dots in the sky that are sort of resembling images, but it's definitely not as great of a view from the as it is from the audience area.

Nick VinZant 9:36

Are you ready for some harder slash list or submitting questions?

Grant Reichardt 9:40

Let's do it, all right. Let's make it happen.

Nick VinZant 9:42

Best place for an audience member to sit,

Grant Reichardt 9:45

I'd say a rule of thumb is you want to be around 200 to 400 feet away from the show, that way you can get a great view, and then you want to be, of course, parallel with where the show is flying.

Nick VinZant 9:56

How fast can the drones get from one place to essentially to another? Like, if you're trying to do an image here and do an image there, like, how quickly can they kind of move around?

Grant Reichardt 10:06

Our speeds are capped off at about six meters per second.

Nick VinZant 10:10

Like, what would it look like if you were doing this in the day without the lights, just watching the drones kind of move around in these patterns?

Grant Reichardt 10:18

You kind of just see a black.it looks like a mosquito out in the distance, kind of moving around.

Nick VinZant 10:22

Are they kind of zipping all over the place, or they just okay, goes up to this level, hovers over to the right, hovers over to the left, or are they more like zipping all over the place?

Grant Reichardt 10:32

I'd say they're they're moving very smoothly. It's maybe the best way I can, I can explain it. Where it looks like very natural motion, it's not like some lose drones, where you're seeing it like move just in space, like it's.. it's nothing, but it's a very smooth flight, and it feels like an animation.

Nick VinZant 10:49

Where is the industry kind of headed, in the sense that, like, are companies just popping up all over the place, or they're just a few big players? Like, what's kind of the status of the industry?

Grant Reichardt 11:00

Yeah, as far as the industry, there are a couple good big players in the US. I think it's something that a lot of people want to get into. So, we're seeing new drone companies pop up all the time, but maybe a, as far as big players, you're looking at maybe two or three.

Nick VinZant 11:17

How many drones do you guys own overall?

Grant Reichardt 11:20

Overall, that's a.. I can't say the, the specific number, we kind of keep the under wraps, but you're looking at the, the range and the multiple 1000s. So,

Nick VinZant 11:30

this is.. this is 10,000 drones in the air.

Grant Reichardt 11:34

This was an endeavor, for sure. This was.. this, but beautiful to see.

Nick VinZant 11:40

Oh, wow,

Grant Reichardt 11:41

yep. So this is the record for the largest LED screen in the sky, and it shows multiple images of different, you know, incredible masterpieces throughout history.

Nick VinZant 11:51

Wait, so how are you doing that? The drones are you're projecting onto something like, I don't even comprehend how that is happening.

Grant Reichardt 11:59

So each of these drones is a pixel in the sky, and they're, they're all kind of lined up in a line, and each of them is a specific color, kind of, and it to our eye, it's just like they all meld together as a pixel on a screen, and they're building these, these images

Nick VinZant 12:17

to me, it's baffling, in terms of like, but all of that comes together like somebody programmed all 10,000 of these things.

Grant Reichardt 12:25

Yes, sir, it was an endeavor. It was, it was quite the crunch to do it. We did it about three months to this entire show came together, and I think you just saw a QR code pop up. We had the large QR code in the sky too, and completely scannable too.

Nick VinZant 12:40

You can scan it from there.

Grant Reichardt 12:42

You can scan it. Yeah, people on the ground can scan it. It's insane. If you see the entire portion, you can look down below the show, and there's this field with, like, that's lit up. That entire field was covered with drones, and we released it up an entire city to kind of run batteries were charging 24/7 and it was, it was, it was crazy.

Nick VinZant 13:07

What really impresses me about this is the waving is how the flag is waving like it's in the air.

Grant Reichardt 13:12

Yeah, yes, sir.

Nick VinZant 13:14

So the drones are just moving in that pattern.

Grant Reichardt 13:18

Yup, they're just moving in that pattern. Each of them knows exactly where it needs to be to a centimeter level accuracy, where it's like, hey, you're going to be right here at this GPS location, and drone, you work as hard as possible to stay right here.

Nick VinZant 13:30

Is there a rivalry between fireworks show designers and drone show designers?

Grant Reichardt 13:36

Honestly, I know this question comes up a lot, and I think the industries are, you know, people are trying to put us at a crossroads, but I kind of think of it as, you know, you know, fireworks, they're this ancient technology, and they're incredible, people enjoy them, and then the Germans are kind of this new thing, and I kind of think of it as, like, no music, and like television, as soon as we started having television, we still listen to music, even though that's probably the older thing to do, and it's not, as you know, maybe you can't do as many things, you know, it's just an audio experience versus an audio visual experience, but I think that's kind of how drones and fireworks shows are, where I think there's people still want the boom, they want that feeling in their like chest of, you know that loud track in the sky and drones are kind of the the advent of this new technology that allows us to tell stories and visuals and bring people's imaginations to the skyward that's kind of a limitless you know open area so I think what we're looking for in the future is really the the blending of the two together,

Nick VinZant 14:42

so people want to find out more about your company. Where can they find you, all that stuff?

Grant Reichardt 14:46

Awesome, you can find us at Light Up the sky.com and same, you know, ads for Instagram. We're also on YouTube. You can also look up Aerial Illuminations and get access to all our shows online as well.

Nick VinZant 14:59

I want to thank. Grant, so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show, do you count down or do you count up? Like, are you a 123, go, or are you a 321, go guy?

John Shull 15:30

I mean, I'm usually a countdown, you know, 321, but I'm also notorious for not actually getting to one, you know, three, two, yank the tooth out or pull the band aid off, something like that.

Nick VinZant 15:44

I feel like I'm more of a count up person, like I'm going to go 123, and then go, unless I'm really tired, then I'm going to give myself a countdown.

John Shull 15:57

I guess it really doesn't make sense to count up, because if you're counting up, you're supposed to be counting down to something, right? Counting up would be going away from it. I feel

Nick VinZant 16:07

your argument makes perfect sense, but I also don't agree with it. I feel like, no, you on three, so you go 123, you wouldn't say on three and then go three. I think thought about this because I was at the gym, and for some reason, if I'm doing like a lot of reps, I'm always doing a lot of weight, so like, look, we know that, granted, I'm pushing heavy weight, but if I'm doing a lot of reps, I find it easier to count up, but if I'm doing a low number of reps with even heavier weight, then I'm going to count down, and somehow that changes my mindset about how I'm approaching something that's

John Shull 16:46

interesting, that's that's a good way to put it, that's I never thought about it that way,

Nick VinZant 16:50

I don't like talking about working out, working out is getting on the list of things that I don't like talking about anymore, mainly because I don't think that I have the right to talk about working out, because I don't look like a kind of guy who should be talking about working out.

John Shull 17:07

I agree with that, but I also think some people need that sense of camaraderie, that community, they need to talk, tell somebody that they ran a mile and get that, you know, even if it's a second of positivity or something, reaffirmation from another person. I think you know that's how, like, I'm that way when I, when I run, I'm part of a little group, I guess, and every time you run, you know, it's like, hey, we did this today, and they're like, hey, great job, and I'm, you know, not running at a marathon pace, you know what I mean, I'm running a fat guy pays. I don't deserve any credit.

Nick VinZant 17:43

I just guess I feel like that's lying to people, because if you're out there and you're running a 10 minute mile, I can't just sit there and honestly say good job to you, because I don't think that that's really good,

John Shull 17:55

which, which to most people that is fantastic, by the way. I don't want your cynicism to dissuade people. I mean, it's not like if it was my job, and I don't want to say me, if it was a person's job to run a mile for a living, and yeah, they did it at 10 minute pace. Okay, but I feel like you have a different, you know, conceivement of a person than if it's their job to run a mile and they post a 10 minute mile, you're like, well, what are you doing? You know, you're, you're failing at your job. But if you're a dad who works 50 hours a week, has a family, doesn't, you know, keep up the greatest, and you run a 10 minute mile, good job, man. Good on you.

Nick VinZant 18:36

I just, I agree with you. I agree with you. I just can't be that whatever with people, because I could say, hey, man, that's really good for you, but I can't. I wouldn't be just like, hey, that's a good job, that's really good, you've ran a mile in 15 minutes. Well, it's like, it's.. it's not.

John Shull 19:00

Let me, let me ask you a question, and then we can move on, because I feel like we've spent a lot of time on this. One of your co-workers, you know, whatever, you're in the office and you're just making small talk, and they go, "Man, I ran two miles this morning at 12 minute 52nd pace. You're gonna say good job, you're not. There's no way a person is going to look at that other person unless you know them that well and be like, oh man, that sucks. Like, you suck.

Nick VinZant 19:31

Yeah, I agree with you. I could say with honesty that that's good for you for going out and doing that. It's good that you did it, but I'm not going to say to you that that was good. I'm glad that you are showing up, which is probably the most important part for most things, is just doing them, but I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and say that that's good.

John Shull 19:55

But are you being the person that's giving the reaction? Are you. Really, gonna say that, say, like, "Hey, good job for at least getting out there.

Nick VinZant 20:05

Oh no, I would say, like, "Oh, that's good, but in my mind, I'm not like this is.. I think that this is some of the things, is right? Like, we're kind of always lying to people all the time. I

John Shull 20:19

mean, yeah, we live in a world that, yeah, we live in a world that's fabricated to make people think they're bigger, better, stronger than they are, but I also think on the flip side of that is some people who are at the top are complete liars and you know falsifiers, and it's all just one big muddy pool at the end of the day,

Nick VinZant 20:42

yeah. I don't want to contribute to that, that's the way that I see it. I do not want to contribute to the lying cesspool that is society. I'm going to be honest, I was like, hey, I'm glad for you for doing it, man. I'm glad for you for getting out there, but that's not really a good time.

John Shull 20:56

Well, I appreciate my group, because I don't look like a runner, I never have, and they still tell me, "Good job. All right, even that fat guy pays miles, which you know I'm - that's what I do, which is fine for me.

Nick VinZant 21:10

Okay, good for you. I'm glad, I'm glad you are out there doing stuff, but I'm not gonna tell you that. Okay,

John Shull 21:18

I saw on Father's Day you had a nice little jaunt, had a nice, nice little time at the Mariners game.

Nick VinZant 21:25

I did. I went to the Mariners game, had a great time. Congrats to your wife.

Nick VinZant 21:30

Do you know how cheap the Mariners have food at their place? This is the best, so that

John Shull 21:36

that's so. Hold on. So I want you to say that, but I also want you to answer the question, after that, to would you rather go, because I'm guessing what you spend, you don't, you don't have to say it, but 50, 100 bucks, probably on the day, right? Maybe, maybe a little more.

Nick VinZant 21:53

I mean, this is the perks of having a wife that is a teacher. We got free tickets.

John Shull 21:59

Well, perfect. Okay, let's just say tickets were 25 bucks a piece, right. We'll just say that's

Nick VinZant 22:04

that's that's a reasonable amount. I would say 25 to 30 is, you can get nosebleeds at the Mariners game for that. Yeah,

John Shull 22:10

would you rather go to 10 Mariners games or two World Cup matches?

Nick VinZant 22:19

I mean, two World Cup matches, simply because that is more of an experience, and then if you start going to things pretty regularly, I think that they start to lose this special-ness of them. It becomes a habit, I think. Anytime you start doing something really regularly, each individual event becomes less special. World Cup, I mean, that's I I,

John Shull 22:43

I give Seattle credit. I'm sure you haven't cared to join in any of the fun, but USA played there last Thursday, I think, or Friday, and it seemed like the whole city showed out. So that was a good one.

Nick VinZant 22:55

I was, I was shocked, I was really surprised. I had to work that day, and like, actually work, like you actually have to do work today, and pretty much every bar that you went past, there was people there at 11 o'clock throughout the entire city. I live about five miles away from the stadium, and they were just, they were busy all over the place. The whole city was out for it. It's cool, like even if you don't get, have aren't lucky enough to be able to go to one of the games. It's pretty cool to go check out the environment. You don't live in a major city, so you won't be able to do that. But

John Shull 23:35

I knew it. You're right. I don't know. I under.. well, I understand why Detroit didn't get a game, but also the same point, you know, Dallas, Boston, they all made their football stadiums into soccer pitches. Detroit could have done that, you know. We have Ford Field, but we weren't selected, so

Nick VinZant 23:54

Detroit's not everybody knows Detroit's not on that level as a city. Detroit is not capable

Grant Reichardt 24:00

for

Nick VinZant 24:00

that kind of thing. They're not a championship, not a championship kind of city. They don't want any of the World Cup teams playing in a city that's going to ruin the vibes. World Cup teams don't want to play in a city that's not used to championships.

John Shull 24:13

Move on to shout outs now, before you have my blood boil over. All right, here's some shout outs for us this week: Leo Bradley, Jude Bell, Andrew Hawkins, Tyree Moss, Ben Hogan, Alan Diaz, Jake Wells, Nicholas Townsend, Mason Duran, and Bob Wiping. I, that looked.. I was more confident when I wrote that one, or when I put that one on my phone, that I would get it correct, but now I'm not sure if it's WA Pan or Wiping, so I'm just gonna go Wiping W A I P E N

Nick VinZant 24:58

WA Pan. And I bet it's what pen I really don't know how to pronounce things not good with words,

John Shull 25:09

I've been doing this for eight years, I still don't know people's names, apparently, and I'm the one who selects the names, all right, I did something last Friday that I think people look at as well, they're mostly gone now. I think in America, I can't say for the rest of the world, but they're like a vintage thing to do, and I thought I would have enjoyed it a lot more than I did, but I actually did not like it at all, and that was, I went to a drive-in movie theater. The

Nick VinZant 25:43

last time I was at a drive-in, I got arrested. That's how long it's been for underage drinking. That's how long it's been to go drive in. I just don't want to do things that I could do more conveniently, like, hey, you want to go sit outside in the summer heat and watch a movie from really far away. No, I don't

John Shull 26:09

mean I give. I give the driving credit. I'm sure it's this way everywhere that has them, but now you can tune in in your car, you know, they have Bluetooth, blah blah blah. That was fine. It's just I don't know. I just, you know, you adding kids to the mix, and it's just, it just wasn't the greatest. Like, I'd rather go to a movie theater and sit in a reclined seat and just be in a controlled place, I guess that makes any sense,

Nick VinZant 26:39

right? It's just I don't want more inconvenience, and I think that the drive-ins have gone away because it's just an inconvenient way of doing something. So, wait, I can go and sit in my car for two hours, that's not really what I want to do, because it just reminds me of being in traffic. And then I can watch a movie from much farther away on a crappier screen and pay a good amount of money for it, like none of that sounds appealing. Each one of those things is worse than the alternative,

John Shull 27:08

like. But then I thought about, like, the drive, and that's all they do is movies. Like, I feel like they're missing out on all kinds of profits, you know. Do sports games, like, do stuff, you know, like at night when it's dark, like people will come out. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm good. I did it once. I told my wife, like, you know, and she, she had to make a big, like, whoop de do of it, you know. We had to take, like, an air mattress, so the kids could sleep or lay in the back of the car, and all this stuff. And I'm like,

Nick VinZant 27:35

way too much work. Yeah, even if you have a good time doing it once, it was because of that moment, like you're not.. that's not going to be a regular thing, like you know what I really love doing, sitting in my car and watching a movie.

John Shull 27:54

Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, it was not.. I mean, it was nice, but yeah, I'm good. I'm good. It's one of those things I don't ever have to do it again. It was 32 bucks for a car, I mean, but like, but like comparatively to move, if you go to the movie theater, aren't tickets seven to 10 bucks a person, so it's kind of the same thing, like,

Nick VinZant 28:22

yeah, to me that's relatively the same amount of money for a much worse thing.

John Shull 28:28

Here's something you won't care about, but I feel like I want to ask anyways, because for some reason I've had multiple discussions about this the last week, but Jelly Roll, you know, Jelly Roll, the singer,

Nick VinZant 28:42

that's a person that I have intentionally, I am familiar with him enough to answer your questions, but that is a person that I intentionally stay away from. Like, as soon as I see any headline that starts with Jelly Roll, I'm not listening. The thing, the thing that I have heard about Jelly Roll that seemed to sum all of him up for me is he's the kind of person who makes music for people who have tattoos of their kids, but not custody.

John Shull 29:12

One could argue that's what most country music is, but I don't, I don't want to go there or say that on the record.

Nick VinZant 29:20

That was the vibe. Once I read that about Jelly Roll, I was like, think that's all I need to know about Jelly Roll. Pretty good. Without

John Shull 29:27

who put that in there, Rolling Stone GQ, they put that quote.

Nick VinZant 29:32

I don't remember. I saw it in the comments, and I just was like, oh, don't need to know any more about this.

John Shull 29:41

I will say he has a very interesting life story. His music is, it's catchy, it's, you know, it's definitely poppy country, but he does have some, some good songs out there, I think. Anyways, in saying that, him and his wife are getting a divorce, and it's kind of funny once again. You mentioned this earlier about everything being a lie, because it all, it came out that, like, she cheated on him, but he hit her one time, and then they both come out and make this big PR thing about how that's all a lie, and they just, you know, they're just separating, and it's got me thinking that, like, for one, I don't really care that much, and who, who would spend all their time just devoted to that, like, and is Jelly Roll that big of a star that we care that much about his personal life?

Nick VinZant 30:30

I am fascinated at how people get so wrapped up in celebrities' lives, like

John Shull 30:37

it's..

Nick VinZant 30:38

I don't know, I've never understood that, to know kind of the ins and outs about something, I may be curious about her story, or about what happened there, about like some gossip or something like that, but I would have a real hard time spending more than two to three minutes on any celebrity's Wikipedia page.

John Shull 31:02

Well, I mean, I don't know about that, but just in terms of actually going through the effort, other than like Wikipedia, to really care about somebody is really hard pressed by me now at this point in my life. Like, I just.. I just don't, you know, they're all people, like I.. you know, I don't care anymore. Like, there is no.. like when you're a kid, right, or even a teenager, like, oh man, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Undertaker, The Undertaker is really dead, right, he's from Death Valley, blah blah blah, and then you learn that he's just a human, he was just a tall person that got a lucky break, like, you know, I don't need to stalk them,

Nick VinZant 31:38

that, that's the way that I look at it, is that the difference between you and successful people slash celebrity people is it's not that they're special, it's that the circumstances surrounding them were special. There's so many other people that could have been in that same position, like there's 1000s of people that could have been in that same position. It just, they had the circumstances that put them in there, so I, that's why I'm not just a regular person. It's just they're really probably not that different from you.

John Shull 32:09

Yeah, I just let's see, wrote out a couple of Trump things, but I feel like that could just be

Nick VinZant 32:19

I am following the reflecting pool, like that to me is a fascinating, like this was a simple job. How did someone screw that whole fucking thing up? Like, all you got to do is just do this job correctly, just do this thing correctly. Can't

John Shull 32:39

do it. That's yeah. Well, I had, I wrote down the reflecting pool for those of you that aren't aware what there was some minor construction or something, they were going to be cleaning it to the reflecting pool, and then somebody or something vandalized it, and the Trump administration is now making it into this gigantic circus, they've arrested people, though they haven't said who they've arrested, I think the vandalism was really just someone poured green dye into the water, like, or blue dye. It's just, but it's all weird, like, it's just, it's a whole gigantically weird thing, mind you. They just had that large event on the White House grounds, so there was all kinds of people from all over there, like, yeah, it's crazy to me. It's crazy to me that that's what the administration wants to pivot on when there's dozen other actual news things happening.

Nick VinZant 33:31

I think it's a certain amount of symbolism for how things are going, right? Like, I think people kind of gravitate to that, and it's like, God, can't you guys do anything right? And to talk a slight bit of politics. This has always been my thing with that administration. I'm somewhat understanding of people's different beliefs towards things, because people come from different places, they have different mindsets, different priorities. So I can understand why people may believe that this is the thing that we need to do. What I don't understand is the idea of, like, yeah, but you can't do it that way, right? Like, hey, to make maybe a terrible analogy, we've got a patient that's sick, they've got the flu, like, okay, let's treat them, but the right way to treat them isn't to chop off their left arm, so that has always been my thing with this administration, is like, okay, if you want to do that, fine, but that's the exact wrong way to go about it. Should we start a war with no real plan? No, we probably shouldn't do that, like, okay, if we want to attack Iran, or we need to protect ourselves from Iran, or whatever, but let's have some sort of plan about what we're doing before we just do it. That's that's always

John Shull 34:52

that's so FIFA announced was a couple days ago that Trump is going to be giving the win. Nation the the trophy, the World Cup trophy at the World Cup final, and all I kept thinking was, and this isn't going to happen, but like, what if Iran won it? What would he do? Like, you know,

Nick VinZant 35:15

the sheer hilarity of it.

John Shull 35:18

Yes, and what Good,

Nick VinZant 35:23

I am fascinated by, like, how some of this FIFA stuff has worked out. In that, look, Seattle is a left-leaning city. Seattle is a left-leaning city. Washington is a left-leaning state. They are going to have the pride match between, I think, it's like Saudi Arabia and Iran or Saudi Arabia and Egypt here in Seattle, and it's going to be that game. Like, did you guys really should have picked a different game for that? Like, maybe not have countries that I'm just amazed at how bad people are at things. This goes back to my whole thing about, like, you can't tell people that they're doing a good job when they're not.

John Shull 36:07

I'm sorry, I like to think I'm kind of up on at least the World Cup, and so there's.. it's Saudi Arabia, Iran, and they're all right. Hold on, no, it's. it's Egypt, it's Egypt, Iran, and that's going to be a pride game,

Nick VinZant 36:24

that's the pride game, probably should have picked different countries to be the pride game, and somebody looked at, like, how many layers, how many layers of people looked at that, and we're like, yeah, let's do it there. That's the good, that's the right one

John Shull 36:48

to do, dude. I mean, I'm just looking at that day alone, and there are.. and once again, I don't think Nick or I are coming out like it's just the way that the Muslim, you know, a faith is with LGBTQ plus right, but like when you look at the calendar that day, there's Norway, France, Uruguay, Spain, New Zealand, Belgium, like there's other case that could have been the pride game, and you make Egypt, Iran the pride game,

Nick VinZant 37:14

right, that's the problem, right, like this isn't this isn't an LGBTQ thing, this is just like you probably should have picked another.

John Shull 37:24

Well, I mean, let's, I mean, do

Nick VinZant 37:26

that. FIFA

John Shull 37:27

also gave Trump a World Peace Prize award, too. So, let's, let's not forget, FIFA does suck, by the way. They put on the best tournament in the world, but they do suck.

Nick VinZant 37:38

Oh, oh, I went to the one of the games, I went to Belgium, Egypt, but I was fascinated by is how corrupt FIFA seems to me, or just the idea of their corruption is that they've got all of these people streaming into this stadium, like something close to 70,000 people with tickets upwards of $300 and all the people working the vending were volunteers. They were volunteering.

John Shull 38:08

Yeah, that's that's that's garbage. I mean, in your mind, though,

Nick VinZant 38:13

garbage -

John Shull 38:16

it's, it's truly insane. And they'll never release this publicly, I bet, but just how much money they'll be making off of ticket sales alone has to be in the hundreds of millions for the games. Sucking, hold on, I want to say one more. I looked at the reflecting pool, so apparently people are saying it was never vandalized, the work created chipped paint, obviously, and some kind of blooming algae that would turn the water a different color, which apparently both have been found in the reflecting pool, and I guess there's internal memos that say that, like that, have been passed around that say that it was never vandalized, so I don't know, I don't know what's happening, but have, have it, what you is, or what it is, that's that's apparently what might be happening.

Nick VinZant 39:08

All right, you ready for our top five?

John Shull 39:11

Let's do it.

Nick VinZant 39:12

So, our top five is top five fireworks.

John Shull 39:15

My number five, I'm gonna go with snaps or smoke balls, you know, like you throw them on the ground and they make that, that brief snap, and then obviously we know what smoke balls are, same thing, you throw them on the ground, there's little little plume of smoke. So my number five are smoke balls and snaps.

Nick VinZant 39:34

Okay, okay, I'm glad that you have them on your top five. I have those a little bit higher, but I'm glad that you have them on your top five. My number five is smoke bombs, not great, but I think you got to get at least one. I remember putting like 20 in somebody's mailbox and then waiting to see all the smoke that comes out of the mailbox. You got to have one, gotta have one smoke bomb.

John Shull 39:57

My number four, and I actually had to look with these, I had to look. Many of these up, what they were officially called, but my number four is going to be mountain or fountains, not mountains, fountains as my number four.

Nick VinZant 40:11

I like fountains. I just can't believe anybody bought that. Like, wow, you paid like $30 for that, just shooting lights into the sky, like

John Shull 40:20

I would like them. I went to, you know, what I probably shouldn't say the name of the company, but I went to a website while I was doing some brief research. Fireworks are expensive, man. Like, good Lord, I don't know why people like to have a decent display over a couple of days, you're spending probably four digits.

Nick VinZant 40:39

Oh yeah, I think. Do you have one relative that would go all out on fireworks?

John Shull 40:45

No, I did not.

Nick VinZant 40:47

Every.. I think every family has the one relative, usually an uncle, that's going to go all out on fireworks. Everybody else can spend like $20 he's coming in with like 500 bucks, goes to another study if I

John Shull 41:02

did, if I did, I didn't get the invite, so maybe I do, but I never got invited.

Nick VinZant 41:08

My number four is Roman Candles, Roman, that's my number three. Roman candles are solid, you point them at people, you shouldn't, but you point them at people

John Shull 41:19

to me, there's several movies that have made that very comical, but at the same point, if you've ever been in that situation in real life, it's pretty scary.

Nick VinZant 41:32

Oh yeah, you absolutely shouldn't do it, but that's also what everybody does.

John Shull 41:38

Absolutely.

Nick VinZant 41:40

Okay, so your number three was Roman Candle.

John Shull 41:43

Yes,

Nick VinZant 41:44

my number three is Bottle Rocket, because you, there is that to me is the most.. I don't know what word I want to use, but that to me is the of all the fireworks. That's the firework. You're like, I'm not sure where this thing's gonna go. Let's just watch and see what happens. That is the most public awareness firework. Everyone, somebody has a bottle rocket. Everybody's got to be a little bit like, where's that thing gonna go? Everybody's gotta be a little on watch.

John Shull 42:15

So, like, with all of these, except for my number two, which are the lamest, most pathetic fireworks you can imagine, though. I think they're designed for kids, but regardless, and I was thinking about this, I don't know. So, my number two are sparklers, and I don't know, out of any, like, you know, fun type thing, if anything's more lame than a sparkler, but yet they're so popular, and everyone does them. If you don't do them, you're lying.

Nick VinZant 42:46

Yeah, my number two is also Sparkler, which I think statistically is the most dangerous firework. I think that they have more injuries from sparklers than any other firework.

John Shull 42:59

I mean, probably based upon volume of this of what they sell alone, but it's like it's probably kids like touching the end, which doesn't count. I need like missing appendages, you know? I need that dictionary

Nick VinZant 43:13

that's going to be like black cats, surprisingly. Okay, what's your number one?

John Shull 43:19

Well, I, I think our number ones are the same, so I kind of want to change my number one to be a little different. Mine is

Nick VinZant 43:26

not, I mine is not, mine's not going to be what yours is.

John Shull 43:30

Okay, so my original number one, which is what I would like it to stay as, are firecrackers.

Nick VinZant 43:36

You're talking black cats, that's the way that I always refer to them as a black cat, whether or not it's actually like a labeled black cat, but when I think of, like, you just light it, it goes off in a second, like,

John Shull 43:50

yeah,

Nick VinZant 43:51

like you have, like, a second to get rid of it, or something like that,

John Shull 43:55

yeah, yeah, I mean, a firecracker, and they make loud noises, and they're disruptive and annoying, and give veterans PTSD. Like, yeah, those things.

Nick VinZant 44:06

My number one is a snap. I think those little tiny fireworks that you have that you can like snap in your finger, or you can throw 'em on the ground. I think those are the funnest fireworks, because you can kind of mess with people a little bit, but they're also, they're safe, right? Unless you're a complete idiot who's like, "I'm going to put this thing in my eye and then try to pop it with my eyelid, which I'm sure somebody has fucking done. It's amazing the amount of stupid things. It's almost impossible to think of something stupid that people have not done.

John Shull 44:44

I mean, yeah. And speaking of, I think the Jackass movie comes out next week. I'm very excited to see that little slug for Jackass

Nick VinZant 44:52

man. I don't know how those guys are physically able to still do that. They've got, they've got to be in the 50s. Yeah,

John Shull 45:02

well, I mean, as they should have, I think they're all done drinking and doing drugs and things. I think most of them are. I mean, Johnny Knoxville is like he's mentally gone, but he can still walk straight. So, what I was thinking about putting as my number one, which is what I really wanted to do, but I thought it was a cheat. They're called, they're like when you go to fireworks shows, they're the big boom cannons. I know what

Nick VinZant 45:30

you're talking about,

John Shull 45:30

but

Nick VinZant 45:32

Johnny Knoxville is 55 Johnny Knoxville is 55 years old. That's way too, not surprising stuff, which means like when Jackass came out, he was in his.. when they were really popular, that would.. he was probably in his 40s.

John Shull 45:52

No, I mean, when probably mid 2000s so 20 years ago, so he would have been late 30s, been ours.

Nick VinZant 46:03

That's still physically I feel like too old to be doing that stuff. I would not have thought that he was that old. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it, really helps out the show, and let us know what your favorite firework is. I just feel like the snaps are the perfect firework, because unless you're really doing something foolish, they're pretty much harmless, but they also kind of encapsulate everything about a firework at the same time, but let me know what you think.




The Art and Science of Fireworks Shows with Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss

The fireworks explode in an instant of blinding light and thunderous sound. But designing a fireworks show takes months of preparation and years of training.

From the Macy’s 4th of July Fireworks show to Burning Man, Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss has been behind the scenes at some of the world’s biggest fireworks shows. In this episode of Profoundly Pointless we talk the art of designing fireworks shows, the science of making fireworks and what happens when things go wrong.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, we countdown the Top 5 Actors and Actresses You Know but Can’t Name.

00:00 Introducing Pyrotechnician Steve Yoss

0:59 Designing Fireworks Shows

04:32 How Fireworks are Made

07:41 Fireworks Dangers

09:37 The Best and Worst Fireworks

11:51 Fireworks Colors

13:51 Fireworks Injuries

15:51 The Best Fireworks Shows

19:49 The Future of Fireworks Shows

20:51 Pointless

46:51 Top 5 Actors You Know But Can’t Name

Contact the Show

Interview with Pyrotechnician Steve Yoss

Nick VinZant 0:13

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this show, fireworks shows and actors that you know, but don't know

Steve Yoss 0:24

it's every time they make it, it'll be a little bit different, it'll never be the same effect twice, and you get to witness this one little thing, and then if you're not there, it's gone.

Nick VinZant 0:34

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it. Really helps out the show. So, I want to get right to our first guest, because he gives us an inside look at what Fourth of July fireworks shows are really like. This is Pyrotechnician Steven Yoss. So, what is a pyro technician?

Steve Yoss 1:00

You know, I would say it is a professional who is qualified and is properly trained on the safe execution of doing fireworks displays.

Nick VinZant 1:10

How much training goes into it?

Steve Yoss 1:13

It's a license, just like any other profession, whether you're a CPA, which I also am, or a lawyer, or a medical doctor, you know you're getting a license from the state that shows and demonstrates that you have gone through the proper training and have the proper background to be able to do this, and in my particular case, it's a lifelong thing. I grew up in the profession, my dad, while not a licensed pyrotechnician, has been in the community for pretty much his life, which means it's the entirety of my life, I grew up doing this, and then when I turned 18, that's when I really kind of started shooting shows, and that, at least here in the state of California, is the minimum age to be able to handle pyrotechnics, and for the first several years, it was just apprenticing, it's just basically learning from other people, and I would say that it is very much a tradition that's been handed down 1000s of years, really kind of going back to the invention of black powder to today, from person to person.

Nick VinZant 2:05

Would you say it's a difficult job?

Steve Yoss 2:08

You know, when you're a crew member, you know it's often working with the pyro itself. It's a very physically demanding job, you know. We like to say it's fire work, you know, because it is work. The equipment we're working with, the mortars themselves are very heavy, you could be working with anything from stuff that weighs, you know, a couple of pounds to hundreds of pounds, you know, a 10 inch mortar, which is a steel gun, has a side in wall, probably about a quarter inch of cold rolled steel in a sanded mortar box, can weigh 1000 pounds easily, the

Nick VinZant 2:37

mortar is what fires the firework, right,

Steve Yoss 2:40

it's it's the, it's the tube that ultimately the firework will leave from, and when a firework goes off, you know, we have a firework seated at the bottom of the mortar, and when we light it, it produces a ton of gas, like a tremendous amount of gas, and that creates a concussion at the bottom of the mortar that ultimately projects the shell out of the mortar itself up into the sky, and we know roughly, you know, the size based off of the diameter of that shell, how big it'll go, meaning how wide it'll shoot, how high it'll go in the air, how long it'll take to get to the apex, and all of that's determined by the firework itself, and ultimately the mortar you use.

Nick VinZant 3:16

So, is this a math equation at the end of the day, like if you put this much stuff, it'll go this far, it'll be this big. Like, is it predictable, or is there an unpredictability to it?

Steve Yoss 3:29

It's not 100% formula, it's art and science, but we roughly know, you know, if I do this and this and this, it's going to yield something that'll look something like this. Now, just like a baker baking a cake, I mean, you can, you know, have some variations on that, but for the most part, we know roughly what it's going to be, and what I would tell you, the rough calculations, this isn't perfect, but the rough is that for about every inch of diameter of shell, and typically you'll start off the smallest shells are going to be about three inches, and those are our finale shells going all the way up to the largest standard production size is 12 inch, but I will point out they can go much bigger than that, much bigger, but roughly for about every inch of caliber it's roughly about 100 feet of burst, meaning it'll go 100 feet wide, it'll go 100 feet in the air, and it'll take a second to get there, so roughly, let's say like an eight inch shell, which would be a fairly large Fourth of July production shell that we would use, that'll roughly go about 800 feet wide, it'll take eight seconds to apex, and it'll go about 800 feet in the air, roughly.

Nick VinZant 4:32

The fireworks themselves are these basically just big black cats, like the kind of thing that somebody could buy, or is it? No, it's a fundamentally different type of fire.

Steve Yoss 4:44

We have two major classifications, three technically, but really in production, there's two major classifications. It actually comes from the Department of Transportation. We have 1.3 and we have 1.4 and 1.3 is aerial pyrotechnics, which is non-consumer. Um, these are these are.. I want to point out, they're not high explosives, they're normal explosive devices. It's not like c4 it's not like Detcord or something like that. These are artistic effects, and it's important to note that our fireworks are art, and what we're going for isn't necessarily a blast, but what that blast produces - beautiful colors, sound effects, things of this nature, and those fireworks are designed for that, but aerial fireworks, which is the 1.3 which is the stuff we're typically dealing with here. You know, your consumer should never handle those. I'm not going to say that they're unsafe, but they do require particular training and safety awareness to be able to work correctly, and they also require in almost all instances of mortar, which again most consumers are not going to have, but these shells are, I mean, they're fundamentally different in terms of how they operate, and they're typically single, single thing, like you might end up getting a fountain or a cake or something like that from a consumer grade that might have lots of different effects in it. Our effects are single purpose, you know. So, it's like a, you know, let's say five inch red dahlia, or it might be a, you know, three inch red, white, blue peony, but it does one thing, and one thing only.

Nick VinZant 6:12

How do you make the fireworks? Is it gunpowder,

Steve Yoss 6:16

black powder? You know, we use different chemicals to be able to create the different effects that we want it to be, you know, so like we have different effects that'll make crackle, we have different effects that will make it bright and yellow or bright and blue, you mix different chemicals together to ultimately get the effect that you're going for, and it's the process of kind of pulling it all together that you'll ultimately create what are called stars, and stars are those pyrotechnic effects that have been rolled in certain chemicals, they end up as kind of, if you can imagine little balls, and those end up like pixels in the sky, you know, like when you're looking at fireworks and you see the individual lights coming down, those are those are what we call stars, and you make those by hand, it's important to note, every firework, every firework out there, everything is made by hand, it doesn't matter if it's made by myself or it's made by a manufacturing facility. Everything is made by hand. There is no real kind of like mass manufacturing of this, and somebody's hands ultimately made every effect that you've ever seen, and one shell might have taken that person three days or even longer.

Nick VinZant 7:19

Wow, it takes that long.

Steve Yoss 7:22

Oh, it could take way longer than that. You know, I have a good friend, his name is Jim Widman, that he's also a member of all of this. He's a current record holder for pretty much every large caliber firework you've ever seen, and he'll often work on a single shell for months to get that one perfect shell that goes off.

Nick VinZant 7:41

How careful do you have to be? Like, is there a wiggle room, or if you make one mistake, there goes the house.

Steve Yoss 7:50

We have tables of distances that we have to follow. So, if you're doing this, this, and this, you need x number of feet between structures. There's strict criterion guidelines about what that manufacturing space has to have certainly no flame. Period. You know, but the other big thing that we have to think about is static electricity. You know, what's the atmospheric pressure? You know, because certain things, for example, will create atmospheric pressure, which is going to create more static. Lightning, you know, is a huge consideration. You know, I would tell you, anytime you're manufacturing them, at least for myself, the first thing I'm thinking about is egress, you know. If something happens, how can I get away from here? This is absolutely not something you want to do just in your house or your backyard. You need to have a dedicated space to be able to do this, correct?

Nick VinZant 8:32

So, when it comes to actually shooting them, is this computerized or is this old school? There's somebody there with a match,

Steve Yoss 8:40

currently for our company, with very few exceptions, almost everything is shot electronically in that way, and that really kind of allowed us to be able to do things with much tighter choreography, where we can choreograph the effects and the time that those effects go up in the sky to be able to produce fireworks shows that are cued specifically to music, and so when you see, you know, again, like the 1812 overture, and you hear the cannon fire going, you know that cannon fire occurring is occurring at the same time we're shooting pyro in the air, and it's perfectly synced up. It's not that you can't do that with electronic firing, which is a manual process where the pyro literally shoots each shell, but they're doing it remotely. The computer is just going to do it with such accuracy that really kind of separates, I would say, the ability to be able to choreograph these shows to a much tighter timeline.

Nick VinZant 9:33

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Steve Yoss 9:36

Yeah, sure.

Nick VinZant 9:37

What is your favorite firework? What is your least favorite firework?

Steve Yoss 9:41

Great question for me. Firework is about art, you know, and really what I look for in a great firework, and I mean it. There's so many different types of effects that are out there that you can consider. For me, what I really want to look for is is just the quality of the shell itself. So I look for symmetry. You know, is it balanced? Does the left look like the right? Does top look like the bottom? You know, was it laid out correctly in the shell? I look for color, vibrance. You know, I really like beautiful, vibrant colors. I look for effect stuff I've never seen before, like chase sequences, where a firework, for example, they can call it - we call it ghosting - where we'll roll the shells in one color, let it dry, and then we'll roll them in another color, and as the firework burns, it can change colors, for example, from blue to red, you know, those, and sometimes it will actually chase around the firework itself, you know, where it'll kind of vibrant, bright flashing, which is kind of cool. I look for, you know, kind of unusual shapes, you know, we've got these jellyfish shells that'll kind of like be exactly like jellyfish, you know, things of this nature, or you know, certain certain odd shapes, you know, certainly the stars, the boxes, the hearts, those are always kind of fun to see and do, and from a manufacturing perspective, they're very challenging to create and make, so that's the kind of stuff I really look for. I've been again around Pyro my whole life, and just your standard just burst in the air, you know? Those are obviously fun, and they're great, but I'm to the point now where it's really about the art and about creating stuff that that hasn't been seen before, or stuff that's very unusual or very unique, the stuff I don't like. What I don't like, I would say is probably just unnecessarily loud things, you know. And often in our community, how big can you make it? How big of a boom you could make it? Sometimes you'll hear the term in the community, thump junkies, you know, the people that just want to hear a big boom and a big flash, that's cool, you know, that's cool once or twice, but frankly, you know, it's kind of a waste of pyrotechnic composition when you can make something a little bit more flashy and a little bit more brilliant.

Nick VinZant 11:51

Hardest color to make, easiest color to make.

Steve Yoss 11:55

I'm not going to probably be able to answer this as succinctly as probably people who are more apt for manufacturing that could, with respect to colors, though I've often heard that getting a really good blue is difficult, and I think one of the easier colors to make is red, because there's several different ways I think you can get to red.

Nick VinZant 12:14

What show do pyrotechnicians like yourself like? What fireworks show do the people who really know consider the bet

Steve Yoss 12:22

from a production perspective. What I really enjoy is bringing that happiness and joy to the crowd. You know, you can't watch a firework show, not smile. You can't watch a firework show and not not point and ooh and ah, and that, that for me, as I've told people, you know, when we shoot that firework show for that 10 minutes, you know, I'm Mick Jagger, I'm Paul McCartney, I'm the guy who actually gets to bring that happiness to people, and then I get to fade and go back into my normal life, which is wonderful. Now, beyond that, though, to answer the other part of your question, as a pyro, what I really get excited for again are going to be these these membership-driven organizations, the WPA and PGI, because often at those events, and at winter blasts for the WPA or the PGI conference, that sense of being able to see that kind of one off, like it's so very, very awesome, because you know that firework, I mean, it's not like a piece of art that's going to Hagen Museum that will be there forever, it's every time they make it, it'll be a little bit different, it'll never be the same effect twice, and you get to witness this one little thing, and then if you're not there, it's gone. What I really love about pyrotechnics is the immediacy of it, you know, if you're not there, you missed it, and a firework will never do justice on a video recording or a picture, you might look okay, but like the what you'll see when you're actually there at these membership events where your buddy made that effect, I think to me is ruined. One of the things I really enjoy.

Nick VinZant 13:51

Have you ever been injured?

Steve Yoss 13:53

Thankfully, no. But I will point out I've also got years of experience and safety and training, and I'm very, very conscious of the safety side of this. I'll tell you again, growing up in this, and shooting pyro with my dad most of my life, I remember something he told me very, very, very young, and I've never forgot it. There are no second chances.

Nick VinZant 14:14

Biggest firework you've set off, most amount of fireworks you've set off.

Steve Yoss 14:19

In terms of size of fireworks, I routinely shoot large diameter shells. My Fourth of July show, which is for the city of Lake Elsinore, here in Southern California, our show features three inch to 10 inch. So, a 10 inch firework is largest routinely I work with, and we'll have a handful of those shells on our show, and I've been part of shows that have had larger shells, 16 inch shells, 20 inch shells, 20 twos, 20 fours, but those aren't ones that I've myself physically worked with, but I've been there, and when they go off, man, they are something to be seen, and it's important to note, with respect to shells, we're working in cubic space and the. Difference between, like, a 10 and 12 inch is almost 50% you know, in terms of cubic volume, it's bigger. So, as these kind of go up in diameter, they don't just - it's not a linear thing - they get like exponentially bigger, in terms of in all possible ways, in terms of burst, in terms of effects, in terms of everything, cost, you know, for that matter, as well. Now, in terms of most number of fireworks, my Fourth of July show on the for the city of Lake Elsinore, that'll end up having about 400 queues. So, a queue is like you hit it and something happens, and so we'll end up having 400 cues, and one queue could end up having multiple shots associated with doubles or triples or things of this nature. And I've worked on bigger shows than that, the Macy's Sports Is All I show, for example, in New York, each barge has 1000s and 1000s of fireworks on each one, and there's like six barges for that show.

Nick VinZant 15:51

Favorite show you've ever worked on,

Steve Yoss 15:53

for me, there's like certain memories, you know, that are very like, like stuck in my head that I can remember, that were like, oh my god, you know, like that was like for that time and place, like the coolest thing ever, and I've had the pleasure of working with my dad for all of these years. He's been a member of my crew since I've had my license, and you know, shows that in particular that kind of stick out in my mind for one reason or the other. First show I ever worked on was the Macy's Fourth of July show. I was 18, I was just graduated high school in May. My dad took me to New York. We worked on that show, and I remember standing on the barge, and I've been to firework shows forever, but it was the first time I'd ever worked a show, and I remember standing on that barge, and it's raining down the firework debris, you know, because you're shooting within the fallout zone. We, whenever we shoot a show, we know the perimeter in terms of like when the plyo is going to come down, and you're wearing a hard hat, and everything, just seeing these, these borders go off in such volume and frequency. I just remember I was hooked for life, you know. It was like, oh, in the smell of the sulfur, you know, the gunpowder that's going off. I was just like, this is this, I'm going to do this rest of my life. There's no question in my mind about it. I'm going to get my license. I'm going to do this forever. I'm also part of the group that does pyrotechnics at Burning Man every year, which is takes place as a large temporary city that's constructed outside of Reno, Nevada. And I've worked on that event for almost a decade now, and I remember the first time going and actually doing fire art with pyrotechnics at the same time, same thing, it was like, you know, just like this is outstanding, this is something I want to do forever.

Nick VinZant 17:26

When you're that close, is it different than what the audience would see?

Steve Yoss 17:32

Yeah, absolutely, for a couple of technical reasons, and I'll tell you the technical reason here, and then I'll tell you what it's like for me now when I'm working on a firework show, so when you're part of a crew, and I would encourage your listeners, if anybody's interested here, I mean, this is something normal people do. You know, I'm a normal person, I have a normal nine to five job, as do almost everybody in the profession. This is not something, call up your local display company, give me a ring, you know, and and you can come out, work on a show, anybody can, anybody can do this. In fact, there's a shortage of operators, a desperate shortage pretty much nationwide. If you look at most of the people in here, there's a lot of gray hair, and this is a very physically demanding job. And there is a huge need for a younger generation to step up and get their license and come stew to show we don't have enough operators to shoot the shows that we could possibly shoot. And the first thing you notice is that fireworks are in d most of the time. When you're watching a fireworks show, you've got the audience and you're standing in front of the actual pyro itself, but you're looking at it in the same way that somebody looks at a canvas and a museum, you know. And when you're at the firework site, you're seeing these things go off in that third dimension, which is vertical space, and it's kind of fun to actually see the vertical separation between some of these different fireworks that you just don't get when you're watching it, you know, 1000 feet away, you're just seeing it happen all in front of you, but when you're standing underneath it or next to it, you're seeing happening in another dimension that you just can't physically see, unless you're actually standing there, and you're also getting the impact of the actual firework going off itself, the thump, you know, there's a visible and an auditory and a kinetic thing when you're standing near this in that fireworks fallout zone operating that show, you got your hard hat on, you got your firework turnout on, you got your earplugs in, you're physically feeling these things go off, you know, they're going 1000s of feet per second, in some instances,

Nick VinZant 19:22

every Fourth of July, we always hear about fireworks shows where something goes wrong. What usually goes wrong, like what mistake do people make?

Steve Yoss 19:31

And there are certainly accidents that can occur, but a big instance where I see this is that culture, it's that safety, lack of safety mindset, and lack of professionalism with respect to producing these shows and allowing for that culture to, you know, come and create an environment where, like, a safety event can occur.

Nick VinZant 19:49

What is the new thing that's going to come out of fireworks shows? Like, do you think that drones could ever replace them?

Steve Yoss 19:56

I think it could be a great compliment to to a firework. Show, and they offer a different type of experience, you know, and they're a different tool, you know. Why do I have five different types of screwdrivers in my workshop, you know? Because I reach for the tool I need for the job that I want to do. Now, saying that, as somebody who likes drones and has shot shows that have included drones, personally I really like fireworks, and although I, as a technologist, I enjoy the technology behind this, and I think they're really cool with respect to what they do. I don't think it's a matter of replacement. It's really a compliment. It's, it's not an.. and it's.. it's an or. You can do both.

Nick VinZant 20:34

I want to thank Steven so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites were Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. If you could go back and give your younger self advice, what age would you go back and talk to yourself?

John Shull 21:04

Probably 2425 I'd say.

Nick VinZant 21:08

Ooh, I would go a little earlier. I would try to go back and talk to myself at 16 or 17. I feel like 2425 is too late in some circumstances. It is really odd to me that you basically have to make all the important decisions in your life way before you're actually ready to make them.

John Shull 21:27

I wish I could have told myself, like the biggest thing that no one ever told me, and that was basically just like, relax, like life's gonna be okay, like you don't have to, you don't have to rush towards one outcome when you want to do 50 other things, you know what I mean. If that makes any sense, I just relax, like things are going to be okay.

Nick VinZant 21:50

I feel like people who know what they want to do really on early on in life have a huge advantage, like a massive advantage if you kind of know from the beginning what you want to do. I don't think most people figure that out for a long time.

John Shull 22:07

I think from 18 to 25 is probably what most people would say.

Nick VinZant 22:12

Yeah, I think it needs to be earlier than that, though. I think you need to tell yourself with one or two years left of high school to really kind of set yourself on a path. The problem is I don't think that you're ready to listen. Do you think you would even listen to yourself?

John Shull 22:31

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have listened. It's funny, my wife and I say this joke all the time, that like if we had met any sooner, and we met in our mid 20s, if we had met any sooner, we wouldn't have been together. We were just different people watching different things, and I feel like that's the same, like when you're in high school, right? If you're an athlete, and maybe I'm speaking for myself, like you're like, 'Man, I'm gonna go play college sports, I'm gonna be a pro, but what's the reality is, you have no shot unless you're LeBron.

Nick VinZant 23:01

I think it depends on what you really are trying to go for. If you're trying to squeeze every inch out of something and maximize your potential as a person, I think you have to start on that really early. If you're kind of trying to just live a good happy life, then I think you can relax a little bit, and your priorities are always just going to change, like, what were you, what do you, what's more important to you, to find out what you're really capable of, or to live a happy life, and you have to go back and forth between the two of those. You don't get both.

John Shull 23:33

When did this become an introspective deep thinking podcast?

Nick VinZant 23:38

About eight years ago, you were just never paying attention.

John Shull 23:41

No, I always try to bring stuff up, and you did nothing but squash

Nick VinZant 23:45

talk about dad stuff. It's so hard to turn diapers.

John Shull 23:52

I mean, it's nobody wants to, nobody

Nick VinZant 23:54

cares about your kids. Nobody cares about my kids. No one cares about your kids. I don't care about other people's kid. No,

John Shull 24:01

I care about your kids.

Nick VinZant 24:02

Do you want to hear about, like, what my kids do on a daily basis? Like, is that interesting to you? Like, hey, guess what Riley did yesterday.

John Shull 24:10

I mean, if you were to send me a text or call me and be like, "Listen, man, I just just want to talk to you about my day, I probably be all right, cool. Like, that's what I'm here for. That's what friends are for.

Nick VinZant 24:20

Oh, I disagree. I believe that your friends are there to, like, give you shit and to check you in reality, and the reality is, like, dude, look, I, it, we have been friends for a very long time. I am not entirely sure of your children's names.

John Shull 24:39

That's fair. I mean,

Nick VinZant 24:41

Joe, it's Joanna.

John Shull 24:48

Wow, this is not entirely

Nick VinZant 24:52

sure what the other one's name is.

John Shull 24:53

That is kind of a bad friend move, but that's fine. Like, it's cool.

Nick VinZant 24:58

Do you know my kids' names?

John Shull 25:00

Yeah, I sure do.

Nick VinZant 25:02

It's Joanna's, but Joanne is the older one. What's the younger one?

John Shull 25:06

Miranda,

Nick VinZant 25:07

God, see, the problem is Melissa stuck in my mind, and I couldn't say

John Shull 25:13

it. I know my friend's children's names, I'm not.. I don't have an issue with that. I get caught up on the ages, like if you were to ask me the ages of your kids,

Nick VinZant 25:22

oh,

John Shull 25:23

I guarantee you I'm probably gonna be wrong. I'll be close, but I'll be wrong.

Nick VinZant 25:27

Okay, I think yours are five and seven,

John Shull 25:31

seven and six, close enough,

Nick VinZant 25:34

close enough, same, same, same difference. Could you guess mine?

John Shull 25:38

Eight and eight and six,

Nick VinZant 25:41

seven and nine, really seven and 10. So you don't know me any better than I do. You are, you are you slightly hurt that I didn't know your youngest child's name?

John Shull 25:51

No, I'm not hurt. I mean, I'm not hurt at all, for real. Like, I'm, I'm cool, like I'm not upset about

Nick VinZant 25:59

it. I don't know of any of the people that I know that I consider to be good friends who have children. I couldn't name any of their children. Yeah, I couldn't name any of their children.

John Shull 26:14

I mean, that's that is borderline like halfway bad friend, but that's that's whatever you want to do.

Nick VinZant 26:24

Well, you just say how your kids,

John Shull 26:27

yeah, but I mean, you know, when they're born, you know, like if you ever see them, the problem is we live 3000 miles away. It's not like my kids and your kids hang out all the time, you know, or or have ever interacted, because I mean, we just live that far apart, but, like, you know, Facebook, social media, talking to you, you know, but we don't really talk about our children's names on the podcast, because of whatever reasons, like,

Nick VinZant 26:54

yeah, you don't bring up the name of your children, you just say my youngest, my oldest,

John Shull 26:58

yeah, like I'm cool, like, yeah, that doesn't make or break a friendship for me. If, if someone doesn't know my kids' names, I'm.. that's fine.

Nick VinZant 27:09

Okay? You kind of look like..

John Shull 27:11

don't you?

Nick VinZant 27:12

I do know your mother-in-law's name. I do know your mother in law's name. How many boxes of wine did she put down this weekend? Three,

John Shull 27:20

three, and three and a half nights, and I say it was a half a night, because she killed like a 12 pack of White Claws or Trulys or something.

Nick VinZant 27:34

The amazing thing to me about that kind of stuff is I think that I live a fairly healthy lifestyle, and also regularly exercise and take care of myself, and I can't say that I feel great on a day to day basis. I do not know how people who don't take care of themselves are even alive, like if you're 60, drinking three boxes of wine a week, like how

John Shull 27:57

73

Nick VinZant 27:58

how are you even alive?

John Shull 28:01

You know what's. I don't want to turn this into my mother-in-law podcast, but she really is a specimen, because not only did she do that, she's.. she also is.. she's on a GLP one, and she's lost 200 no, 165 pounds.

Nick VinZant 28:18

Dang, that's a

John Shull 28:20

Sunday. She does the shot, and then within five hours is drinking Trulys or White Claws. I'm like, I don't know if that's what you're supposed to do, but that's what she did.

Nick VinZant 28:34

This goes back, I think, to the conversation that we started at the very beginning. Is there is a huge difference between what it takes to optimize something versus just to keep it going,

John Shull 28:47

I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean, you're, I mean, she's 73 right? I mean, you know, without being too negative, you know, the she's in our twilight years, and I think she's just doing what she wants to do, now, mind you, if I, if I see 73 which probably isn't going to happen, but if I do, like I would hope that I'm able to walk and move in, you know, things like that, but just based upon the person, I guess.

Nick VinZant 29:17

Oh, when I'm no longer able to really do the things that I want to do, I'm going to drop dead. My family has a long history of that, of being really healthy, and then something happens, and then they just drop dead two weeks later. Like, nope, I'm done, which is the way it should be. Don't be lingering forever.

John Shull 29:36

I just hope you and I reunite in whatever's out there after, and just keep our friendship alive.

Nick VinZant 29:48

Still won't know kids' names.

John Shull 29:51

I mean, I won't know your kids' ages well. Now you told me, so I know them. But

Nick VinZant 29:55

what were they?

John Shull 29:56

10 and seven, seven

Nick VinZant 29:58

and nine.

John Shull 30:00

Oh, see,

Nick VinZant 30:01

already got it.

Nick VinZant 30:02

Okay,

John Shull 30:02

yeah. All right, let's give some shout outs here to people that I do know their names, and I won't remember them after I say them, but here we go. Meredith McDaniel Hendricks, hole.. I like Hendrix.

Nick VinZant 30:17

I know a couple of Hendrix is actually.. I know three Hendrix is,

John Shull 30:23

are they, are they male or females? I only asked because this, when I was profiles, this is a woman, Hendrix.

Nick VinZant 30:32

I could see it, I could see it, but I would think that is more of a male name, but I could see a female being named that, kind of like Logan, Logan is more of a male name, but I can see a woman being named Logan,

John Shull 30:46

I can't, but we'll move on. Emery Rush, Malaya Moon Boone Schwartz. Oh my god, that almost reminded me of a certain Dave Alianna Welch Welch, Andy Branch, Keenan Sexton, and Jillian Cantoris.

Nick VinZant 31:10

Okay, okay.

John Shull 31:12

Well, I tried not to be too depressed while looking at current event topics, but it's all depressing. So, we might as well just start with the I think that I think there was two big events this past week, excuse me, the first one was, you know, we have a trillionaire now, we have an official trillionaire in the world,

Nick VinZant 31:33

that to me is obscene, I do not understand how someone with billions of dollars can live with themselves. To me, that's like walk, going to the grocery store, and you see people who are struggling. Some people don't even have food, and you walk out with just half of the store. That I don't, I don't think I could live with myself. If I had that much money, I would feel so guilty and ashamed to have taken so much from other people. It's obscene.

John Shull 32:10

I mean, I agree with you. I think it's terrible. I, I'm on the, I'm on the fence here, because part of it, part of me is like, man, you know, people have done studies like he's, he's a trillionaire, right? If he gave $5 billion to the world, it would solve world hunger, but he won't, because the rich don't give anything, really. My other part of that is, is like, he doesn't shop, he doesn't know what, what he doesn't know anything in terms of, like, he doesn't go to Kroger or Meijer or CVS and see people struggling, you know? When he drives, he doesn't care about people standing on the side of the road, like I'm not saying he's a bad person in a sense, but like he doesn't understand, he doesn't know what life is like, he's a trillionaire, he literally could lose $500 billion and he would still be richer than 99% of the world.

Nick VinZant 33:10

That to me is why it's just an obscene thing, and that because you don't get to that amount of money by earning it, you get to that amount of money by holding other people down by taking from other people, like I don't understand how you could sit there with a billion dollars in your bank account and then lay off other people, or to say, you know what, not going to give you this 2% raise, like I don't, I think that you have to have a total moral lack of character to get to that point, and not see other people as people.

John Shull 33:47

Yeah, I mean, you all, I mean, my wife, God bless her, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but it's kind of interesting. Like, just look at what he named his children, like that's not normal. I don't even remember what they are, but it's like a bunch of, you know, a minus x equals space bar, like, like clearly he's not, not on, you know, not in touch with reality, though that's hard for me to really justify, because feel like you have to be in touch with some kind of reality to keep making billions of dollars,

Nick VinZant 34:22

I think you have to see people as essentially like computer inputs, like they are not people, they are math equations, and I also think it's fascinating, the sense is that you have the person who has a trillion dollars and he still ain't happy.

John Shull 34:36

Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole other topic. I don't think the rich people are truly happy. No,

Nick VinZant 34:46

no. And I think that's why they devote so much time to making money, is because they think, well, like, maybe I can just, if I make more money, maybe I will get to this point, or at least, if I have all of this money, I can justify. The decisions that ultimately did this, like, no, I don't have a relationship with my children, but I did that, I don't, because I made $20 billion and you don't, and I think the idea is like, we don't need them, I'm totally, I think I think it is obscene to have that amount of money.

John Shull 35:17

Well, I saw this, and I thought this was interesting, and once again it's not really funny, but that SpaceX now accounts for half of the aerospace and defense sector, which you know, if you go back and look at it, I mean, that's what him and President Trump said they were going to do, so here we are, so really we're to blame, the people are to blame, the people are to blame,

Nick VinZant 35:41

but the thing that I also don't understand is that if somebody is worth that amount of money or has that much money, like, how much money do they actually have in their bank account?

John Shull 35:51

Well, and that's the other thing, is you're correct on that, right? Yeah, he might have that in assets, but how much, how much liquid does he actually have right? I mean, I'm sure he still has billions and billions, but

Nick VinZant 36:05

I would think so.

John Shull 36:07

I, what is after a trillionaire? Do you know? I'm not smart enough to know. Oh,

Nick VinZant 36:11

I think it's like a quadrillion, a quadrillion.

John Shull 36:14

Do you think we're ever going to see that in our lifetime?

Nick VinZant 36:17

Only if we have massive, massive inflation. I think, though, that there is some statistical analysis that even though that he is worth this much, if you did it based on the price of inflation, he's still not technically the richest person ever. I think there's some people who are like, but this was like kings back in the day,

John Shull 36:36

yeah, you know, like the

Nick VinZant 36:37

Sultan of whatever, who owned, yeah, I think he's still not the overall wealthiest person, but it's just like I would be embarrassed and ashamed if I had that much money.

John Shull 36:53

Oh, well, Elon, we'll give you our address if you want to make a check payable too. We'll be fine, just

Nick VinZant 36:58

checking Venmo, dude, it's 2026

John Shull 37:02

Yeah, right. Let's see, the other big event, and I don't even know how to describe this, was the White House UFC event, which, you know, I mean, as so I don't watch all of it, but as an event, I mean, you know, they had real fighters, like it was a sanctioned UFC event. I forget one of the guys' names. I think Hockett. Have you ever heard of a UFC fighter?

Nick VinZant 37:28

I could honestly not name you a single UFC fighter. I mean, I could historically, yeah, I could, but current fighter today I couldn't name you a single one.

John Shull 37:38

Well, this guy, I believe one is Matt, and I, this was kind of like the stamp of, like, yeah, this administration is dumb. So, anyway, so the guy wins, I think, and he's he's known as kind of a rebel in the in the UFC world. They're interviewing him, he's saying some really stupid shit, he's not getting a reaction from the crowd, and then he ends with going and Michelle Obama is a man and like he gets no reaction, like puts his hands up and walks away, and I'm like, and mind you, you know we know what this administration is, but like to my knowledge, no one came out after and was like, "Oh man, that was a really bad thing to say, like we don't condone it, like instead it's just like, yeah, he was on the White House lawn, just fought, said Michelle Obama's a man, and like, that's all people remember from the event.

Nick VinZant 38:29

My, I didn't see any of it, but I can imagine what it looked like in my head, and I don't imagine it looked like class,

John Shull 38:42

I mean, the only reason why it looked like class, it was like a, like a FIFA World Cup group stage match between Senegal and Iraq, where you know neither of those teams are traveling, their fans are not traveling, but yet there's still 55,000 people in the stadium,

Nick VinZant 38:59

like, where

John Shull 39:00

did they get those people from, like, blah blah blah, like, yeah, there was people there, but they were either the elites or they were people that were cheering everything that I don't think had an idea, you know, yeah, it was just gaudy, man, like, I don't know how else to say it, like, it was just gaudy,

Nick VinZant 39:17

yeah, I can picture it, was something that I did not realize is that most of either people, when you see people in the front rows of events, whether that's like sporting events or concerts, they're usually paid people, like they specifically staff, like there's organizations that specifically staff of big events with like paid act, not actors necessarily, but like paid people to put them there,

John Shull 39:45

seat fillers, essentially, right? Seat fillers,

Nick VinZant 39:47

right? Like, they.. it's not normal people who are in those events, like, oh no, those are paid, like, there's corporations that do that. I did not realize that,

John Shull 39:58

yeah, that you know, it's. I thought it was going to be like the weekend of 250 I didn't realize, like, it's a whole month and a half, and then after a month and a half of just events, like, it just.. it was, yeah, you know, presidents, American presidents have done some pretty crazy things, but President Trump, I think it's going to be up there when it's all said and done,

Nick VinZant 40:21

I do not. As a history major, you can believe whatever you want to believe. We don't get into politics on this show, but history will not treat him kindly. It will not.

John Shull 40:33

Yeah, will not. Anyways, those were the two big ones. Obviously, I don't know if you, if you want to talk at all about the World Cup, you don't have to, but you had the privilege of going to a group stage game, Belgium

Nick VinZant 40:48

versus Egypt,

John Shull 40:49

and it was cool. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's insane. Oh, one other thing, now that I'm thinking about it, not that you care at all, but the, you know, how you always shit on sports, like, yeah, hockey, baseball, this and that. So, the ratings came out, the NBA finals and the NHL finals were basically roughly the same time. The NHL finals averaged 1.6 million viewers a game. NBA was over 20 million per game. Now, mind you, they were, I think, they were on like ABC, you could watch them locally, hockey was on ESPN, which obviously you need a subscription for, but just that's that's a crazy discrepancy, and the NBA Finals averaged more than the United States first game did for soccer and the World Cup, I think that game averaged 16 million, so just kind of to show you know, basketball, basketball kind of an NFL does double what basketball does sometimes, so

Nick VinZant 41:53

yeah. Well, and that's what's interesting to me, is that last year was that how the NBA is declining and all that stuff. I do think that was a little bit of an aberration, and that you had the biggest media market, people were really interested in New York Knicks, and then you had Victor Wembanyama, who a lot of people wanted to see. So, I think it'll be really like, okay, what's next year like? That was definitely a tune-in thing. Nobody cares about soccer. I couldn't even.. I don't even know who played in the Stanley Cup Finals. I don't even know,

John Shull 42:21

Vegas and Carolina,

Nick VinZant 42:25

oh, two, definitely two cities famous for their hockey.

John Shull 42:28

I mean, Vegas has, has won it, I think they've been around for eight years, they've won it twice, like a lot of people

Nick VinZant 42:35

in Vegas playing hockey, though. Outdoor rinks,

John Shull 42:39

yeah, Vegas is about to get a baseball team. They have a football team, like, you know, we have made Vegas, you know, we've made Vegas a sports city, which, yeah, I still don't think of Vegas as a sports city, but well, it's a much

Nick VinZant 42:53

bigger sports city than Detroit is. Better sports city than Detroit is, they have championships,

John Shull 42:59

well well, as well. I'm glad you had fun. I'm, I'm considering making the four hour drive near a city that's hosting one, but tickets aren't going down, so we'll, we'll see if I do that.

Nick VinZant 43:14

We got pretty lucky, so I'm comfortable sharing it, like we paid 300 a ticket, so the whole thing cost me $1,200 because we didn't care what game that we went to, so

John Shull 43:29

but you saw two world class teams, like it's not like you saw, like I said earlier, Senegal and Iraq, which, by the way, they're all world class athletes, like not to say that those athletes from those teams aren't good, but like you saw Belgium and Egypt, like they are top-tier teams.

Nick VinZant 43:46

It is a boring game to watch, but when something does start to happen, it is very much like, oh,

John Shull 43:57

and then they shoot it 40 feet over the bar, right? And you're like, oh, okay, yeah, I have a question. Yeah, I have a question, and you can, though, you have to answer this, because it's not personal, but it talks about money, but, like, concession-wise, our, the prices for concessions compared to

Nick VinZant 44:12

ridiculous,

John Shull 44:14

compared to, like, a right, like a sports, like a Seattle Seahawks game.

Nick VinZant 44:18

Oh, yeah, so I will compare it to a Mariners game, which we've been to recently. Mariners games, you're going to be looking, you can get tickets for like 10 bucks if they're, it's, you know, dead of the summer and they're playing a team that nobody cares about. You're usually looking about 10 to $30 a ticket, and Mariners are super, super big on families, so they actually have like a cheap menu where you can get hot dogs for 499 like you can actually get full lunch at a Mariners game for 15 bucks. The price of concessions, I paid $70 for two hot. Dogs a drink and a pizza, and what killed me about it was that people working the concession stands are all volunteers. FIFA is the biggest racket that I have ever heard of in my life.

John Shull 45:16

I mean, yeah, I mean it's pretty known that them in the NCAA are, you know, notoriously the worst in the world, but $70 was the, was the pizza, at least like a large pizza, the

Nick VinZant 45:30

one of the, no, I mean, it was, it was decent enough, you'd be like, okay, that's a decent sized slice, but one of the hot dogs that we got was like, oh, that's borderline and edible, like it was clearly burnt,

John Shull 45:40

my God, man, $70

Nick VinZant 45:43

that's ridiculous. The tickets I was okay with, the concession prices I was pissed off about.

John Shull 45:48

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then they do these hydration breaks now. Well, they don't, it's not, but you know, Fox has done it now to where they go to commercial break, and that was one of the things I think a lot of the die-hards like about soccer and hockey is that they're fast sports, like they don't stop, and now, like, they, you know, and I think it was like $25 million an ad or something for ad time during this hydration, hydration breaks, like,

Nick VinZant 46:15

oh yeah, oh, people in the stadium were kind of, I mean, I don't really have a problem with giving athletes water.

John Shull 46:23

No, no, I mean, they don't. I don't either, but like I guess money

Nick VinZant 46:30

off of it is ridiculous. Yeah,

John Shull 46:31

like Telemundo on them, like they don't cut to commercial breaks, and maybe it's because they couldn't sell ads, which I'm sure that's not the case, but they don't cut to commercial break to, you know, fucking rocket mortgage or Allstate commercials.

Nick VinZant 46:46

Now, are you ready to go to our top five? I mean, do this forever. Sorry, let's go,

John Shull 46:50

let's do it.

Nick VinZant 46:51

So our top five is top five actors and actresses that we know who they are, but we don't know their names, so I'm not entirely sure how we're going to do this, because if some people are going to say names of people we don't know who they are, but let's just go with it, okay? Who's your number five?

John Shull 47:10

So I actually have a pretty good list, and I think people are gonna be like, oh yeah, I know who I know who that is now. So my number five is Liev Schreiber.

Nick VinZant 47:22

Oh, I don't agree with you on that one.

John Shull 47:26

I don't agree.

Nick VinZant 47:27

He is the guy who was saber tooth in some of the Wolverine movies. He was in Ray Donovan, Ray Donovan, that's the name. He's, yeah, the

John Shull 47:37

narrator for the NFL show on HBO, the one that goes like through training camp, can't remember the name, Hard Knock,

Nick VinZant 47:46

Hard Knocks, yeah,

John Shull 47:47

but like I don't know, I, I know him best as like he was in the original Screen movie, like yeah, he was the original, he wasn't the bad guy, he was like the, the air quote bad guy, but yeah, so I'm comfortable with putting him as my number five. I, if you think that's controversial, I have some names at the top that I think you're going to be like that doesn't make any sense.

Nick VinZant 48:13

Okay, the one thing that amazes me about Lee Schreiber is that I never understand how it's that's his voice narrated, yeah,

John Shull 48:22

right, yeah.

Nick VinZant 48:23

I'm always like, that's not him. It didn't sound like him,

John Shull 48:27

crazy, but it is.

Nick VinZant 48:30

My number five is Richard Jenkins,

John Shull 48:34

okay, Step Brothers.

Nick VinZant 48:35

He's the dad from Step Brothers,

John Shull 48:39

okay? Yeah, okay. Probably another actor who's been, he's been in a ton of stuff, but like, you don't know his name,

Nick VinZant 48:49

don't know, have no idea. Like, I had to look up that his name was Richard Jenkins, but I was like, Who is that guy? Okay, so number four,

John Shull 48:57

uh, William Finkter,

Nick VinZant 49:00

no idea,

John Shull 49:02

men. In all, I mean, he's been a what's what's what do you call it, not an accommodate actor, like he's been, he's been in 50 major motion pictures, but he's always been like a secondary actor, but like when you see him, you're like, oh yeah, that's William Fictor. Like, he was an Armageddon. He was one of the main pilots in Armageddon. He was in that movie, George Clooney. Yeah, I just looked like,

Nick VinZant 49:30

yeah, he's been a ton of stuff. He was last

John Shull 49:34

name is amazing, Finter,

Nick VinZant 49:37

Finter way too close to Sphincter. I would have changed that if I was him. Guarantee that guy was just named Fink, or the Sphincter, at some point,

John Shull 49:46

probably. Yeah, if

Nick VinZant 49:47

he hears this, his eyes are twitching. Uh, my number four is Keith David Dead, American fiction.

John Shull 49:58

I mean, I know who that is. I could see why a lot of people don't, for sure.

Nick VinZant 50:03

He's like, oh, that guy. Okay, okay. Number three,

John Shull 50:07

Peter Stormare, and once again, guy who's been in a tons of stuff, but most famously, probably he was the bad guy in Fargo, the movie from the early 90s, like the Russian hit man.

Nick VinZant 50:24

Oh, I know who you're talking about.

John Shull 50:27

Yeah, so

Nick VinZant 50:27

he's been in a lot of stuff then.

John Shull 50:30

Yeah, I know about his appearance, like you know, he always speaks with, like, an Eastern European accent, and most of his roles, like, you just know who he

Nick VinZant 50:41

is. I think that he was the devil in Constantine, too. I think that's the guy that I'm thinking about. My number three, also from Fargo, John Carroll Lynch was in Fargo, Zodiac, Drew Carey show. He was in

John Shull 51:00

familiar,

Nick VinZant 51:01

you will, as soon as you see this picture, be like, "Oh, that guy, John Carroll. Yeah,

John Shull 51:10

yeah, yeah, he was a.. yeah,

Nick VinZant 51:15

yeah,

John Shull 51:15

that's a good, that's a good one.

Nick VinZant 51:17

I really thought about putting him up at number

John Shull 51:21

one. That's a pretty good one.

Nick VinZant 51:22

If people at home who aren't watching this, we'll put a picture up for people who watch this, but if you're just listening to it, look up John Carroll Lynch, and your reaction will be like, "Oh, that guy,

John Shull 51:33

that's funny. All right, my number two is Michael Pena.

Nick VinZant 51:39

Oh, I think he was.. what was he in? I think I know who you're talking about.

John Shull 51:44

I mean, he was in Crash. He was in that 911 movie with Nicholas Cage, World Trade Center. He was in The Martian. He was an Ant-Man.

Nick VinZant 51:53

Yeah, I know he's about,

John Shull 51:54

like, but you know, he's.. he's obviously Latino, so he plays a lot of the Latino stereotype characters. But, like, yeah, he's another guy. When you look him up, you're like, "Oh, Michael Pena. I, of course, I know who he

Nick VinZant 52:06

is. I, I would almost say that's either the perfect number two or you're pushing it a little bit. People would know who he is.

John Shull 52:15

That's fair.

Nick VinZant 52:17

My number two is Dean Winters.

John Shull 52:21

Yes, man, I only.. I know Dean Winters because I remember watching a show he was first in called Oz on HBO back in the late 90s, but now he's

Nick VinZant 52:32

the mayhem guy for Allstate, I think.

John Shull 52:36

Yeah, he's Mayhem for sure. Yeah, without a doubt.

Nick VinZant 52:40

He was a bigger act, but I haven't seen him in anything since he started to me. Just collect that check, and he's like, "Good enough, man.

John Shull 52:47

Like,

Nick VinZant 52:49

after.. Oh, who's your..

John Shull 52:51

So I went old school with my number one, but when I say the name, it'll jar everyone, but my number one is Eric Roberts. Hold on,

Nick VinZant 53:06

that's why it's a good number one. If I'm like, who the hell is Eric Roberts?

John Shull 53:10

So, before I bring up a photo of him, you're a Batman guy. He was the bank manager in The Dark Knight. Do you remember that? He's, you see, that there's a coming through.

Nick VinZant 53:21

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay,

John Shull 53:25

yeah.

Nick VinZant 53:26

What else was he? Do you remember anything else?

John Shull 53:29

Well, he was the mask back in the, in the, in the late 80s. Remember that movie, The Mask?

Nick VinZant 53:34

Yeah, he was always kind of a traditional bad guy.

John Shull 53:38

Yeah, and he's, he's done a tons of music videos as well, from the killers to rap videos. He's just always been around. He was like, Who is that creepy looking guy? Well, now you know his name's Eric Roberts.

Nick VinZant 53:50

My number one, I don't know how you're gonna feel about this, because she might be too big, and that's why I put her at number one, because, like, oh, she's a big actress, she's the biggest of all these people. Olivia Coleman, Hot Fuzz, she was one of the cops in Hot Fuzz, she was in broad shirts, she was the crown, she's English, always plays like English people.

John Shull 54:17

So, here's the thing, I, I wouldn't give you shit about this, even three years ago, but she did the crown, and then she did something right after that, where she won a bunch of awards, but you, but you take away the last three years, like, I, you know, I still, when you said the name, I had to think for a second, like, so,

Nick VinZant 54:36

right, yeah,

John Shull 54:37

I'm cool with it,

Nick VinZant 54:38

you might know her name, but you do have to think a little bit more than other actresses of her level, and that's why I went with her as number one. She's like, oh, she's.. oh no, she's really famous. Who else do you have? Do you have anybody else in your honorable mention?

John Shull 54:55

Well, a couple of the controversial ones I put on there for my honorable mention, James Matt. Kavoy.

Nick VinZant 55:01

Oh no, I know exactly who that is. No, I disagree with you on that one,

John Shull 55:07

Judy Greer. If you're familiar with her, no,

Nick VinZant 55:11

don't know that one.

John Shull 55:13

And then these ones I just put on and cross them off, because I was like, I think people know who these are, but Joaquin Phoenix,

Nick VinZant 55:21

yeah. What? No,

John Shull 55:22

yeah,

Nick VinZant 55:24

Joaquin, yeah. Isn't he.. wait, is he the one who's dead or is he the one who's alive?

John Shull 55:32

He's alive, but he's..

Nick VinZant 55:33

he was in Gladiator. He's gladiator.

John Shull 55:35

He was the.. oh no, that's

Nick VinZant 55:37

way too big. That's way too big.

John Shull 55:40

All right. Well, then I won't even go into the other two I put on there, because I know I wanted

Nick VinZant 55:44

to. I want to hear with your other two terrible Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks on there,

John Shull 55:49

Brennan Fraser.

Nick VinZant 55:52

You're God. Thank God you scratch these off. Those are ridiculous.

John Shull 55:56

Keanu Reeves,

Nick VinZant 55:58

everybody knows who Keanu Reeves is people know,

John Shull 56:04

but

Nick VinZant 56:04

now, now, if Keanu Reeves had a much more boring name, would people still know who he is? That to me is a big question. If his name was like Tom Jenkins,

John Shull 56:17

sort of boring neighbor you as Tom Jenkins,

Nick VinZant 56:21

well, if you look, the people that we don't know do have kind of boring names, like Richard Jenkins, Keith David. Yeah, Keen Phoenix is a much different name. The only one that I had that you didn't have was Steven Tobolowski. That's yes, it is. If you look it up, you'd be like, "Oh, that guy, he was the annoying character in Groundhog Day. Generally kind of an annoying doofus guy.

John Shull 56:53

True, both

Nick VinZant 56:54

Steven. Oh, yeah, okay,

John Shull 56:56

yeah, yeah. The glasses are what get me. If you look up, you'll know exactly why Nick has him on his honor. Mention,

Nick VinZant 57:06

okay? That's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. We really, yeah, appreciate it. I don't know, my, you have your mind just completely blank like that, like no, it just, it just checked straight out on me. But we do really appreciate any rating or review you can give us, really helps out the show. And let us know who you think are some of the biggest actors and actresses that you know who they are, but you just don't know their name.

The Songs of Summer with Music Researcher Professor Devon Powers

What makes the perfect song of the summer? Professor Devon Powers studies summer songs. She says every great summer songs usually has three things: a memorable chorus, a beat that makes you feel good and lyrics anyone can swing.

In this episode of Profoundly Pointless we look a the last 25 years of Songs of the Summer. We talk making the perfect summer song, the behind the scenes marketing that turn ordinary songs into massive hits and why we sometimes don’t have a song of the summer.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, we countdown the Top 5 Summer Songs.

00:00 Introducing Professor Devon Powers

00:58 What Makes a Good Summer Song

06:62 A Bar Song (Tipsy) by Shaboozey

09:23 Despacito by Daddy Yankee

10:19 Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke

11:55 Call Me Maybe by Carly Rae Jespen

15:38 The Simple Complexity of Summer Song

18:04 Old Town Road by Lil Nas X

19:30 Party Rock Anthem by LMFAO

21:21 The Best Song of the Summer

22:19 The Worst Song of the Summer

24:20 Timing the Song of the Summer

26:26 2026’s Song of the Summer

27:37 Pointless

46:18 The Top 5 Summer Songs

Contact the Show

Devon Powers’ Book on Trend Forecasting

Devon Powers’ Book on the Birth of Rock Criticism

Interview with Song Researcher Devon Powers

Speaker 1 0:01

Nick,

Nick VinZant 0:12

welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, summer songs and summer songs

Devon Powers 0:21

as a phenomenon, it just like lit it on fire, and she kind of broke something open that I feel like had not been broken open before, but it is the the watershed moment of our contemporary era.

Nick VinZant 0:38

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate it. Really helps out the show. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she studies what makes the song of the summer the song of the summer. This is Professor Devin Powers. What makes a good summer song?

Devon Powers 1:00

A good summer song is a song that makes people feel and think that it's summer, you know. It's one that gives off a summer vibe. Is

Nick VinZant 1:09

it something about the music, or is it something about the time?

Devon Powers 1:14

I think there are aspects that summer songs of the summer share, you know, like I think they tend to be upbeat, they tend to be happy, they tend to be about summer, or like, you know, about things that people do in the summer, but you know, really, it's about the experience that you have, and the sort of like vibe that a song makes you, you know, evokes, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the song has to be kind of about the summer,

Nick VinZant 1:41

do we seem to kind of coalesce around one

Devon Powers 1:45

of the inputs that it has to do with is like what people are talking about, what are music critics talking about, what are people who you know, influencers who have a lot of following online, what are those people talking about, what's kind of the conversation, right, and of course that's like one of many conversations, but it's part of this kind of like cultural dominant, if you will, and I think that that tends to coalesce around a couple of songs. Last year, 2025 it didn't, and that's one of the reasons why people say there wasn't really a 2025 song in the summer.

Nick VinZant 2:16

I was thinking about that, like that was the first year that I felt recently, or at least in my lifetime, like, oh, there wasn't really a big song of the summer.

Devon Powers 2:25

There were so many like eulogies for the song of the summer in 2025 because there wasn't kind of that, you know, that espresso or that despacito, like the song that kind of felt like it was everywhere. That's not the first time it has had that has happened, right? Like, there have been summers prior to 2025 where there was not kind of like one dominant song, and, but you know, I think when people think about 2025 they think, oh, you know, with streaming, with fragmentation, and with kind of the political environment and the climate, like, there were all these different things that were happening that meant that the cultural consensus kind of didn't emerge the same way that it had in previous years, but you know, again, what, what is a cultural consensus, like, we could have a long debate about that,

Nick VinZant 3:15

we'll get into this in a little bit, but I noticed when I looked at, like, the official and official in quotes, list of songs of the summer, the older ones I would go, like, oh yeah, absolutely. And as we've gotten more closer to today, I have much more disagreement about it, like, I don't know about that. Is that kind of, you think, part of this?

Devon Powers 3:39

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely part of it. Well, there's a couple of things. One, I think it's some of it is aging, right? So, like, the older you get, the less you're kind of plugged into that kind of youth culture where songs are new and you're excited about every new, you know, song by whatever artist is coming out. So, some of it is that, but I really do think some of it has to do with public spaces where people are listening to music, and if you think about it, you know, I was driving yesterday, and I heard Lucky Star, right, Madonna, Lucky Star, from like 1980 whatever, and I rolled my windows down, and I turned it up, and I obviously looked like an old person doing that, but also it reminded me, like, how often am I hearing what other people are listening to, it's not that often, you know. I have my headphones in, I have my earbuds in, I'm walking around, everybody else does too, you know. Maybe in a store, but in a store, you're hearing the playlist of, you know, whatever clerk or barista is like controlling that thing, so that's not necessarily going to be the same everywhere, whereas when you were a little kid, if when I was a little kid, I went to the grocery store, I heard the same songs that I heard on the radio, which were the same songs that I heard kids playing in the park when I went to play, which were the same songs that were playing, you know, at the school dance, or whatever it is, right? So all of those things made it easier to kind of know what other people were doing. And have more of a consensus,

Nick VinZant 5:01

yeah, that's that's true. The disappearance of just general music in public has definitely happened, as people have kind of privatized that a little bit more. When you talked about the idea that how these songs come up, do they usually seem to be coming from the ground up, and that people like them, then the influencers start talking about them, then that kind of fuels it, or do the influencers set the tone, and then the public kind of decides what the song of the summer is.

Devon Powers 5:29

That is a great question, and I think it's a mix of those two things, and I also think it's, it's hard, and it's getting harder to know. So, just to use one example, if we go back to summer 2024 Brat Summer, right? Like, whether or not you thought that you know anything on that album was the song of the summer, it was Brat Summer, like that was the name of the summer, right? Like, I feel like there was a lot of consensus around that, and that was a sort of a lot of grassroots and fan interest in Charlie XCX, but it was also a fantastic and perfectly timed marketing campaign, right, that was executed brilliantly, and that involved some of the sort of, you know, seeding things, if you will, on social media, right, like getting people to, like, cross post stuff, for example, feeding the songs and feeding the album into the right influencers who are positioned in the right places, right. So all of that happened, right. And because it worked so well, right, these campaigns don't always work that well, but because it worked well, it felt organic. And you know, what do you want to call that? Do you want to call that top down or do you want to call that bottom up? It's kind of a hybrid, you know, so I think that it's often that those two things really kind of work together, and that's true now, and it was true in the 80s, and in the 90s, and in the 2000s as well.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Can we just look at a couple of the songs that have been songs of the summer, and then get your thoughts on them? So, the first one that I picked out was a bar song by Shabuzi that was to me like, oh, that was the song of the summer,

Devon Powers 7:06

yeah, that song was the song of the summer, and it was also the song of the fall and the winter, and like, like that song was on the charts for so long, and I think still, if you look at, like, a couple of months ago, like, I looked at the Shazam songs that were Mo Shazam, and it was still up there, right? So that song kind of blasted through many, many different layers of culture and has like a lot of staying power. One of the things I love about that song is that it's based on that Jaekquan Tipsy song.

Nick VinZant 7:34

Yeah, I remember that.

Devon Powers 7:36

Yeah, which not everybody knows, right? But I think that's one of the things that made that song sort of pop for people, because if you were young, you're like, no, this is just like, you know, this is just a really great song. If you're older, you're like, wait a second, I remember that chorus, right? So I think it's kind of cut through demographics for that reason, and obviously that song is like a country song, but it's also like kind of a rap song, right? So it kind of bridges demographics in that way too. And I just think, you know, it's brilliant for that reason.

Nick VinZant 8:08

Do is that the kind of song that when you first heard it, you were like, that's gonna be big.

Devon Powers 8:13

I, you know what it is? It's the kind of song that you hear it and you go, what's that, right? That's the reason that I think people Shazam it so often, because if you haven't heard it, you go, I've never heard anything like this, you know. And I think it's got that kind of, you know, it's got that beat that just kind of like almost that stomping kind of throughout the song, and it just carries you through. And I just feel like you just, you just want to know what it is you want it. The conversation stops, and you go, what am I hearing? Yeah,

Nick VinZant 8:40

it definitely crossed. I feel like so many different lines in the terms of like country people could get behind it, rap people could get behind it, pop people could get behind it. Yeah, from in when we look at its musicality, I don't know if that's the right word or not. Is there anything special about

Devon Powers 8:56

it? You know, I think it's got pretty easy lyrics, you know, it's got a chorus that, like, keeps coming back, and you know what it's going to be, and that's a very, almost like a sing-along kind of chorus, you know. So you can imagine being in a room, being in a bar, for example, and everybody singing that song, and I think that's another thing that kind of makes it, you know, a very collective kind of everybody likes this kind of song,

Nick VinZant 9:23

Despacito by Daddy Yankee.

Devon Powers 9:26

So that song is interesting because it was released in January, and then they added Justin Bieber to it. I want to say in like April of that year, that was 2017 right? And so that song, like Justin Bieber, changed that song for a lot of people, I think, and brought in kind of all of that fandom to the song, and so as a phenomenon it just like lit it on fire, and I can remember that summer, and like you could not escape Desucito, it was also like kind of sexy, a little bit dirty in that. Sense, right? So I think that there was a little bit of a very small amount of, like, a pearl clutching response to it, especially the video, if you remember, like it was a very sensual video. So I think that really kind of helped, you know, push that one along, for sure,

Nick VinZant 10:19

sticking with a little bit of the controversy, for lack of a better phrase, Blurred Lines by Robin Thicke, that's another one that it's like I remember that song, but was that really the song of the summer?

Devon Powers 10:30

That song, I mean, another inescapable song, another very sexy video, and that had a lot to do with why that song kind of, I mean, that video was almost like X-rated for people, you know, and that song, you know, it's got the Marvin Gaye hook in it, and it's just like it is, it is definitely a jam, but it's also like one of those songs that's aged really badly, and it's aged badly, not just because of the copyright controversy I mentioned in the Marvin Gaye thing, but obviously the content of that song in the wake of the Me Too movement, and this idea that you're supposed to sort of push a sexual encounter with somebody that maybe isn't sending you clear signals that you know that goes to the same place that, like, Louis CK went, you know, it's kind of been retired among like the way that people are comfortable talking about sex and sexual relations and those kind of things, so for me, like 2013 was about Get Lucky, which is also, you know, kind of a song about, about, you know, relations, but it's a much happier, much kind of like more benign approach to those same themes, and it's just like that is a dance song, you know. So I would say that the song of 2013 was Get Lucky,

Nick VinZant 11:55

go back in time a little bit, call me maybe Carly Rae Jepsen, that was another one that I remember. If I was gonna like tier list summer songs, that one to me was really big too.

Devon Powers 12:08

That is a song that is an ear worm, right? So the thing about that song is, once you get it in your head, you cannot get it out of your head. And anybody who's listening to this, if you know, call me maybe, if you haven't listened to it a while, you probably can call it to mind, right, it's got that infectious chorus, you know, it's got that kind of looping structure, it's very cute, it's very, you know, sweet and benign, and yeah, it's just like, again, totally inescapable, one

Nick VinZant 12:36

that is not on this official, official in quotes list of song of the summers, espresso is not on this Harry Styles as it was, is is that surprising to you? Because I remember espresso being like, oh, that's the song of the summer, at least I thought that,

Devon Powers 12:53

you know, this is one of those questions where we get into a debate about who gets to say what the song of the summer is, and how is that calculated, you know, is it by streams, is it by chart placement, is it by sales, is it by tours? Is it, you know, there's all so many different directions you could go, you know. I think that, as it was an espresso, are in some ways very, very similar songs, right? They're like kind of that mid tempo, they are major keys, they are sort of like light and airy, and they just kind of wash over you in this kind of like happy, you know? You feel, you feel your mood elevates when you listen to them, and you don't even have to be paying attention, right? You could be in a coffee shop, and as it once comes on, and suddenly everybody has a little bit of a spring in their step, and they can't even tell you why, right, and they do that without while also being memorable, right. So they're not just musical wallpaper, which sounds kind of like an insult, but I do think that in the sense that they can kind of seamlessly seep into whatever vibe you're in, but they also are memorable, right. They have really, really strong hooks, really good choruses, really easy to learn, you can learn the chorus the first time you listen to the song, and you can sing it by the end of the song, and then the next time you know it. Is

Nick VinZant 14:09

there anything more to that from a musical standpoint? Like, okay, we kind of talked about the idea of like they're upbeat, they're easy to remember, but is there anything more from a musicality standpoint, like they're using three quarter time, or I don't know enough about music to even ask you this question correctly, but is there more to that layer? I guess

Devon Powers 14:30

I mean, most songs are in four four or two four, like some kind of, you know, they're not in three four, they're not interpret, they have a very regular beat, that's just the, that's just the structure, you know, that's like dominant through pop music. It says I should say dominant through kind of like a mainstream vein of pop music, right? You hear things that are have more triplets and whatnot in other places, but yeah, I think that that that having that and being in a major key is kind of like and being. In a sort of, in a mid-range, which makes it easy to sing, and easy for, you know, people have different ranges in their voices, but the voice that, like a teenage girl, or, like, you know, the voice that you can sing, you know, that's kind of, that's important as well, right, to have something that's really singable for a lot of people, that's not a stretch, that's not doing a bunch of vocal gymnastics. It's just, you know, if you think about it, like espresso has like five notes, maybe four notes, right? I'd have to look at the music to know, but it doesn't, it doesn't have very many. It's not a complicated song, you know.

Nick VinZant 15:38

Would you say that they're generally simple songs, or they know they're complex, but they're simple in their complexity. Does that make sense? What I'm asking,

Devon Powers 15:48

yeah, it does. And I would, I think that simple is a little bit of a misnomer, because to write a really catchy song is hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it, and we would know every song that's been ever been written, and we don't, right? So, the fact that we don't means that it takes a lot of talent and skill to put together a song, even if that song is four notes and two chords, right? But that said, like, I do think that when something is kind of like distilled down to that essence, and it doesn't have a lot of, you know, can like a Mariah Carey song, like

Nick VinZant 16:24

right,

Devon Powers 16:25

most people can't sing along to that, even a Chapel Road song, you know, who like, like Hot to Go, you can sing along to that song, but Chaparrone has a fantastic voice, and so there's a lot of things she does with her voice that most people cannot do, but like espresso, people can do that,

Nick VinZant 16:42

so some of the ones from the early 2000s Mariah Carey, We Belong Together, Usher Confessions, Part Two, those are both slower songs, if I remember, like Usher Confessions was a song of the summer,

Devon Powers 17:00

I don't remember that song as a song of the summer. Yeah, if we, you know, if again, if we get into the designation of the song of the summer, every summer there is a song that's very popular, and that's probably goes back time in memoriam, right? But the tracing of the song of the summer and the competition for the song of the summer is much, much, much newer, right. So, Billboard doesn't launch their song of the summer chart until 2010 right. So, again, to whatever degree you think Billboard is or isn't an official arbiter of this thing, that doesn't happen till 2010 right. So, it's really like late 90s forward, that you start to see people talking about the song of the summer as like a thing and honorific and a competition that people want to have, and before that, and even I would say even the early 2000s it's a little more iffy than it is after, say, like about 2010 yeah, and really like 2020 13 is when you start to get like, oh yeah, I know what these songs are.

Nick VinZant 18:04

Old Town Road,

Devon Powers 18:06

Old Town Road is one of those songs that I don't even think of it as a song of the summer, so much as like a song of the century, like a song of the song of the year, really, because that song was just Lil Nas X, and then he brings Billy Ray Cyrus on, kind of in a similar way to Despacito bringing, bringing Justin Bieber, Justin Bieber on, right? So, so that song, Old Town Road, changes the game, right, because it's a rap song and a country song, and it's not the first time that people had tried to bring those two songs together, but it is the the watershed moment of our contemporary era, right? And it's how we get Lil Nas X as a star, right? And the thing about, like, Old Town Road is that that song is so easy to learn, it has the chorus is like the whole song, the song is what, like two and a half minutes long. Yeah, it's got these verses. The verses are super easy. It's got a very clear story. I remember watching videos in 2019 of like, like assembly rooms full of children singing that song, you know, and so, like, any song that you can play for five year olds, and they love it, and you can also play it at the club, is like, that is a song, right? This one is one

Nick VinZant 19:30

that seemed to be a little bit faster tempo than some of the other ones, but LMFAO party rock anthem.

Devon Powers 19:37

Oh my gosh, that song is so good. That song was a gimmick. It had a very, very funny video. They were sort.. it was almost a novelty song, you know, like Grandma Got Run Over by Reindeer or something. Like, it was almost like that. It was a caricature of a party song that was also a party song, and I think that. For that reason, it both hit the people who wanted to just be like, this is literal, this is just like I'm putting this on and I'm going out with my friends, and the people who wanted to think of themselves as like this is a commentary on partying, and it just got all of those people, so

Nick VinZant 20:17

a lot of the songs that we've talked about, they seem to have this undercurrent of nostalgia, you know, like a bar song, Old Town Road bringing back Billy Ray Cyrus. Is there usually a component of nostalgia in some of these?

Devon Powers 20:32

I think the nostalgia element, or the kind of retro element that you're calling attention to, has more to do with where music is right now than it does songs of the summer, per se, right. So, if you think about, like, covers, remixes, bringing back house music, right, bringing back different forms of dance music, right, looking at, you know, there's just all of these kind of like revivals that happen cyclically across music for the last 20 years or so, that's really kind of been the case, and I don't want to say that there's nothing new under the sun, but there is a lot of like rehashing of old things to themes of things coming back in style, etc. etc. And so I think that shows up in the song of the summer, but it shows up everywhere else too.

Nick VinZant 21:21

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? What, in your personal opinion, is the best song of the summer?

Devon Powers 21:30

I'm gonna go on a, on a weird limb and say that it's California Girls by Katy Perry, which I know is a strange choice, but the reason I'm saying that is actually because of the Snoop Dogg cameo in that song, and I think that song is part of why Snoop Dogg has become a national treasure, and it sort of marks this like launch of this kind of new cultural position for him, and it's also a bop, and also like it's really singable, and it's really fun, and it was kind of Pete Katy Perry,

Nick VinZant 22:08

and I get what you mean with Snoop Dogg, where he was famous in certain circles, and then how like that launched him into where he's commenting on the Olympics.

Devon Powers 22:17

Yes, absolutely, absolutely right, I get that.

Nick VinZant 22:19

What do you think is the worst one

Devon Powers 22:22

magic rude 2014 which I don't know. Oh, yes, you do. Do you? Don't, don't make me sing it. I'm

Nick VinZant 22:33

unfamiliar. You don't have to sing it. Do you remember the lyrics?

Devon Powers 22:36

It's yeah, it's why you gotta be so rude, I I

Nick VinZant 22:43

hated that song.

Devon Powers 22:45

Yeah, but that song, like 2014 you could not escape that song.

Nick VinZant 22:51

Are these good songs? Like, would you take any of the songs that are songs of the summer? Did they have a chance of being in the top 100 songs of all time, like those are good songs. Are these just flavor of the month that sometimes goes on for more months

Devon Powers 23:14

in terms of songwriting? Some of them are very nicely written songs, like I think As It Was is a very, very nicely written song, you know, but if we're looking for virtuosity, if we're looking for, you know, someone with a spectacular voice doing gymnastics with their voice, if we're looking for complexity, if we're looking for, you know, some song that really totally breaks new ground, I don't think you necessarily have a lot of that. The one caveat I will give, in kind of recent memory, I think Chapel Rone is doing some very, very interesting things musically. I think she's got an amazing public persona as well to go with those songs, and she kind of broke something open that I feel like had not been broken open before, so you know, whether you want to say like Pink Pony Club or Hot to Go, or either one, I'm not sure when they were released, because songs of the summer are usually released in like April or May or something, but both of those songs, like, I couldn't, I couldn't avoid hearing them,

Nick VinZant 24:20

could the song of 2016 be the song of 2021 Like, did these songs seem to adhere to something that, like, yeah, but it had to be that year.

Devon Powers 24:33

I think that songs don't have time, and what I mean by that is, you know, if we look at 2025 for example, two of the most popular artists in 2025 were Radiohead, because Let Down became kind of a meme, and Goo Goo Dolls, because Iris became a sort of social media meme, and so in that sense, like those songs are. From the 90s, why were people listening to them, and they were listening to them because they served a purpose in 2025 So, in that sense, like songs can be whenever, right, as long as people attach to them again and find a reason and a value in them, then they don't have to be of their moment. That said, like, people are writing songs about World Cup 2026 and you know, or when you drop, like, you know, post it to my Myspace lyric in a song, right, that's like immediately dates the song, and there are lots of songs out there that are like that, right, that will always be kind of frozen in the moment that they came out.

Nick VinZant 25:41

Has there ever been a sad song of the summer?

Devon Powers 25:45

You know, this year Olivia Rodrigo, The Cure is kind of a saddish song. I think of, I mean, I think Olivia Rodrigo is a really interesting artist because she's super, super popular and very pop, but she's not her music is not always happy. In fact, it's usually not that happy. So, if people get really into that song, then maybe that'll be the song of the summer. You could also look back at Somber, Back to Friends, right? That song's not really happy, but it is. It did have a real kind of moment during the summer last summer.

Nick VinZant 26:26

What are your early favorites for 2026

Devon Powers 26:30

Anything but Drake.

Nick VinZant 26:36

I have not heard any of his new music.

Devon Powers 26:40

Yeah, so Drake released those three albums a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, you know, the there's different theories, but one theory is that he was trying to get out of his contract, and he had three albums he had to deliver, and he delivered three albums, and he maybe had an album and a half of material, but he delivered three albums, but Drake is Drake, so when Drake releases material, people are going to listen to it, and if you look at the Billboard top songs of the summer chart, the number one song for the week of june 6 was Janice STFU, like, so that's, you know, that's showing the power of Drake over the culture.

Nick VinZant 27:21

I want to thank Professor Powers so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. How do you feel about people who back into parking spaces?

John Shull 27:46

I don't really think one one way or the other.

Nick VinZant 27:48

I generally have a slight amount of judgment for people who back into parking spaces. I mean, I don't. I look down on them ever so slightly when you back into a parking space,

John Shull 28:02

we've documented my parking lot anxiety, so the further I can get in, the more air parentheses control that I can have over parking, which is obviously easier to pull out of a parking spot than back out of a parking spot. I'm all for it.

Nick VinZant 28:22

See, that's why I have a little bit of a judgment, is because I think when you're backing into a parking space, you're essentially saying I can't back out of the parking space, I'm not a good enough driver to be able to back out in difficult circumstances, so I can only pull forward. That to me is what you're saying, you're admitting you're admitting defeat, and that's why I have a little bit of judgment towards it.

John Shull 28:46

I mean, I don't, I don't blame anybody for that. Maybe it's just also easier, like I said, I feel,

Nick VinZant 28:53

but it's not easier, because either way you have to back in, either way you have to back up at some point, so it's kind of like you've got to add something up to three, you've either got to do two in the first round and one in the next, or one in the first round and two in the next, like, so it's not easier

John Shull 29:11

if you put it that way, then it's, it's for me it would be better to get the hard part out of the way first, that way you don't have to worry about

Nick VinZant 29:19

it, okay, okay, I also do tend to notice a pattern that people who back into parking spaces are mainly bigger cars, mainly like trucks and big SUVs are backing into parking spaces. I think it's because they're not good enough drivers to just make the turn and park correctly in the first place.

John Shull 29:39

I mean, I'm not gonna hate on anybody for trying to park one of those. Those are not easy cars to park. I, I wouldn't even try it at that point. I would just park six spaces away from somebody.

Nick VinZant 29:52

That's the thing, too. That's what I would respect that more if you just park way away from everybody. I don't like the fact that you don't have as much judgment about backing. Parking, as I do, and I think that you're secretly trying to kind of apologize for them because you want to be one of them. You would be a bark back in Parker full time if you, if it was allowed.

John Shull 30:10

I mean, I'm a pad time, I'm a part-time backer inner. I do do it at like large events, like sporting events, concerts, things like that, because there's no way that I'm like, you know, there's already going to be a line first, right, to try to get out of the venue, or wherever, and then you have to, you know, you have to back out. There's, there's a lot of anxiety, so I'd rather just be able just to pull out, maybe have to cut somebody off if I have to, and it's just easier that way.

Nick VinZant 30:40

I think that we have gotten to the root of the issue on both of us, right? Like, so back in parkers are ultimately slightly afraid of leaving, they're afraid they're not going to be able to get out, they're just afraid they're not going to be heard. So back in parkers are inferior to other people.

John Shull 30:57

Wow, I feel like you're going real deep on that, I don't think that I do think it takes more, a level, more of a level of thought than just pulling into a spot. The only way that I would actually judge someone for backing into a spot is if you know the parking lot or whatever was kind of sparse and then still back into a spot, then I'd be like, hmm, you know, you didn't necessarily didn't have to, but I'm cool with it, I'm not gonna pass judgment one way or the other,

Nick VinZant 31:30

okay, I'm gonna pass a little bit of judgment, 10 to 25% judgment is what you're getting from me if you're back in Parker,

John Shull 31:39

how about this? Who would you have more judgment against? Someone who back in parks when they, when they don't have to, or somebody who stops in a handicap spot, runs into the store, and then comes back out real fast.

Nick VinZant 31:54

Oh, the person who parks in a handicap spot. You can't do that. Can't do that. I won't even use the handicap stalls at bathrooms, like, no, that's reserved for somebody who needs it. You can leave that alone.

John Shull 32:08

You must be going to much nicer places than me. I mean, I don't, I don't think I've really ever seen a handicap-only bathroom. I mean, there's accessible bathrooms, if that's what is that what you mean? Like, accessible

Nick VinZant 32:19

bathroom, yeah, like the one that's usually at the end, the bigger one.

John Shull 32:23

I mean, I've used those before.

Nick VinZant 32:25

You shouldn't. You shouldn't. I have a good friend that ran into an incident once, somebody was in there and his son needed to use it. Don't do that. Don't be that guy, man. Don't be using handicap things when you don't need it. Just get through life. Wait, have you done that? Have you parked into a handicap stall and ran in?

John Shull 32:46

No, I've never. I've never parked. No, I've never done that. And I actually do judge people who I see do that, because I just, I just think it's tasteless, like a lot of times it's 10 extra steps, and you're clearly not handicapped, at least physically. And then the bathroom thing, I am usually with my children, and it's a bigger stall, so it's easier to use. That's a little bit of

Nick VinZant 33:11

a pass. I'll give you more of a pass for that now. If you were just using it on your own, I'm like, no, dude, you gotta get out of there. Obviously, if somebody

John Shull 33:18

comes, comes in that needs it, I mean, you know, you do what you can. It's not like you're using it to piss off the handicap community, but no, I don't mess around with handicap spots in parking lots. I don't even get that close to the front of the store. I just know I'd rather, yeah, and I just pull in, man.

Nick VinZant 33:36

Uh, you got, you got, you ready for shout outs there? Let's,

John Shull 33:40

let's get going here. I got a good first one here in memory of my favorite club. So we start with Luna Roach, Abdul Rahman Ponce, Liana Garcia, Margie Graves, Donna Sweeney, Holly Reynolds, Daisy Brennan, Dylan Butler, Mark Singh, and Harry Smith,

Nick VinZant 34:05

we'll talk about your mustache. We're gonna leave that alone. Just wanna know,

John Shull 34:10

I mean, what I mean, we can talk about if you want. I don't. How about there? How about you ask me, how many days it's been since I've shaved, and in that way the people listening will have an idea of what it looks like.

Nick VinZant 34:22

Okay, but I know you don't grow a lot of facial hair, so I on me, which I can grow a mustache. I don't grow a lot of facial hair, but I can grow a mustache pretty quickly. That's probably three days, maybe two,

John Shull 34:42

okay. Okay,

Nick VinZant 34:44

I bet that's been a week for you.

John Shull 34:47

Yeah, at least, probably more like going on day nine or 10, maybe 11, but it's definitely been a week.

Nick VinZant 34:53

You really can't grow facial hair. You really

John Shull 34:59

can't grow, I. It is what it is. I don't, you know,

Nick VinZant 35:02

are there a club, right? Like, there's clubs, and there's all kinds of things for men who are bald. Are there clubs and organizations for men who can't grow facial hair? Do you want to be the president?

John Shull 35:13

I mean, there's that, there's that, that hair in what's it called, hair,

Nick VinZant 35:20

hair club for men

John Shull 35:21

implanting thing in Turkey, where people go to Turkey, and apparently they have some thing there where they can have hair, they can do it for your facial hair too. I was reading, but I'm not gonna, I'm not that desperate.

Nick VinZant 35:33

Could you like what kind of facial hair would you get implanted? Like, you just really want to grow a mustache, it'd have to be a beard. You, the only reason that I could see somebody going and getting facial hair implants is if they thought a beard could really make their jawline look better. That would be the only justification I could see, because I couldn't see somebody just being like, "Man, I've always wanted a mustache.

John Shull 36:02

I mean mean, I don't want a beard, I don't want a mustache, I don't want any facial hair, like I just haven't shaved, because I just haven't shaved, but, like, I, you know, we both have friends, I'm sure, or know people that have just these big bushy beards, and I'm like, How do you live with that thing on your face, I mean, it's so itchy to

Nick VinZant 36:23

me. It seems so itchy.

John Shull 36:26

It's.. I will say this, I think the.. because I think the mustache is back. I think, and I think it's ridiculous looking. I've always thought mustaches, unless you're like a cowboy in 1809 like it just, they just make no sense, and I'm not even sure what a mustache really does, other than catch all the shit before it hits your nose. I guess

Nick VinZant 36:50

I'm gonna go out on the limb here and give my controversial opinion that if you're growing a mustache, you've run out of things to do. You have run out of things to do if you're just gonna like, I'm going to grow a mustache. There are people like I know a couple of people with beards, though, that I think grow them out so they look much different, like some people without a beard, like, oh, you look a lot different without that beard.

John Shull 37:16

Well, Jelly Roll just said this, actually, and I agree with him that bigger guys grow beards because it hides their chins and their fat

Nick VinZant 37:25

rolls,

John Shull 37:26

and I, I don't disagree with that, but also, like, I feel like you have to pull it off.

Nick VinZant 37:34

Yeah,

John Shull 37:34

you have to be able to pull it off.

Nick VinZant 37:36

You are a bigger man than I am. Do you have a lot of green shirts? I have always had this theory that bigger guys really like to have a lot of green shirts.

John Shull 37:53

No, I have primarily three colors of shirt in my closet. Now I do have a one or two green shirts. Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 38:02

I don't own a single green shirt.

John Shull 38:04

Well, that's okay. Then I mean, green is a main color. I mean, by chance you should have one, even if it's a polo or something.

Nick VinZant 38:13

I think that green shirts are reserved for bigger guys. Skinny guys don't wear green shirts. Look around, so anxiety.

John Shull 38:24

I think white shirts are for skinny guys. So,

Nick VinZant 38:27

I mean, you just made that up. Just look around now. Once you're aware of the big guy green shirt phenomenon, you will notice that, like, tell me the next time you see a skinnier guy in a green shirt, it's not. It's a bigger guy. Bigger guys love green shirts. It's my theory. Wow,

John Shull 38:44

I've kind of lost interest in this conversation.

Nick VinZant 38:46

Okay, all right. Well, then let's move on.

John Shull 38:50

I mean, how can we not talk about last night, which is the NBA Finals and the game, you know? First off, a ticket to game three, it's if you're not familiar with the NBA, it's the San Antonio Spurs versus the New York Knicks, blah blah blah. The starting ticket for game three in New York was like $10,000 which is absurd. President Trump, for all of our American listeners, there, here was there, which was a catastrophe in terms of they had to shut down, or they like the bars and viewing parties around the arena were asked not to do anything due to security concerns for the president being there, which seems really shitty on the president's part, you know, taking away all that business, and then the game happens. The Spurs beat the Knicks, which I think it's two one now. New York still in the lead, but then after the game, New York fans, there's tons of videos on social media of Knicks fans just like randomly attacking Spurs fans, like be. Them up, ripping off their jerseys, like there's this really.. it's really sad, actually. And it doesn't look like this person.. like, you know, you never know, but it doesn't look like the Spurs fan is walking by himself. It doesn't look like he's trying to cause any trouble, and Knicks fans are like, "Spurs jersey, Spurs jersey, and they just start jumping this guy, and he starts trying to fight him off, and of course, like, you know, one against 20, you're never going to win, and they beat him up pretty bad, and took his jersey, and it's like, so, anyways, I just wanted to talk, you know, I just wanted to bring that up, like, with the World Cup here, I don't think we could have done a worse job as a country of anything for the World Cup promotion, security wise, all this stuff, like it's all terrible, and you know, then you have that yesterday, and I just, I just, I'm thinking to myself, like, what are, what are we doing, like that's why my question to you is, would you take your kids, you know, because you have two younger boys, just like I have two young little girls, like, would you take them to a football game, or like a high stakes playoff game, like I know I won't,

Nick VinZant 41:04

no, I would not, and I certainly wouldn't, like you gotta know where you are in life, like I would not go to another team stadium that's really fired up wearing the opposing team's jersey, like, I just wouldn't do that. I think to some degree you should. This shouldn't happen. I don't think anybody's arguing that it should, but like, don't, don't do, don't do that. Don't go into a hostile environment trying to egg on the hostile environment. Like, if I was in that situation, I'm not wearing a Spurs jersey, I'm not wearing a Spurs jersey, there,

John Shull 41:43

I mean, I'm not going to sound all machismo, but I mean, I would, I would wear a Detroit jersey, because I just don't think, you know, you know, I, I wouldn't think that would happen, right? Like, if

Nick VinZant 41:54

this, this is the championship, though, right? So, why would you even need to be in a situation where you would be wearing a Detroit jersey to a championship. Detroit never plays at a championship. You would never be in this situation. Why would you even think about it? There's no chance that a Detroit team will ever be playing for a championship. So this is essentially a problem that you don't even have to worry about.

John Shull 42:18

I mean, do you want me to give you the 32nd ramble on the state of Detroit sports, because I can make you feel much better.

Nick VinZant 42:24

They're terrible, they're terrible, they're all terrible. Go ahead, our go ahead.

John Shull 42:28

Our captain of the Detroit Wet Red Wings, our hockey team requested a trade this week. He's the captain, and he wants to leave now. Fine, be gone. But anyways, yeah. Did the Pistons made the playoffs, by the way? Did Seattle, do they have, do they even have a basketball team anymore, or did they know?

Nick VinZant 42:49

Because they have a championship football team and won the Super Bowl. What's basketball? I'm sorry, what's that like? The number three, number four sport. I care about football championship.

John Shull 43:00

It's smashed this year, and I can't, I can't wait.

Nick VinZant 43:04

Okay, cool. At least we won.

John Shull 43:07

You're right, you won. So

Nick VinZant 43:10

your whole theory about, like, I'm gonna wear a Detroit T-shirt night. No, you're not, because you're not going.

John Shull 43:17

The point, the point to be bringing this up was the kids thing, and like, I just, you know, I would be really butthurt, right? Like, you spend all that money, you go to a game, they lose, whatever, but like, in no way am I gonna randomly attack somebody because they're wearing another jersey, like that's not instigating anything, or appears to not be instigating anything, it's just, just seems absurd. Like, well, I agree. Well, once again, what are we doing? Like, it's crazy to me.

Nick VinZant 43:49

I don't think that there is a single thing, a single thing that we have in society that is going right now that is going well. Is there a single thing in society happening right now that is going well.

John Shull 44:06

I mean, not to be this person, but I mean, unless you're one of the 1% no, absolutely not. Like,

Nick VinZant 44:15

not a single thing is going well in the world right now, and I don't think that that was the case. I don't think that's always been the case. I don't want to try to put this all on one particular administration, although they think that they're largely responsible for a lot of things, but I just think that we have entered into an age of society and watch not a single thing is going well for people. Healthcare not going well, politics, that's not going well. Economy not going well, culture not going well.

John Shull 44:47

I mean, I just, you know, yeah, I don't disagree with you. I do wonder, and once again, I was, I was talking to somebody about this over the weekend. It's like, you know, we read history books about the 1800s right? What. Ever 1900s and we're like, man, that must have sucked for various reasons. In 200 years, when people read about this time, I wonder, I wonder what they're gonna say. Like, are we living through the worst time America's ever seen? Now, probably not, right? Because we haven't had a world war, like the COVID pandemic wasn't like the Spanish flu to a large degree, though it was still terrible, but it's like I just wonder what the history books are going to say about 2000 to 2030 you know,

Nick VinZant 45:32

it's going to be an interesting thing, right? I think that you'll have more cultural and societal uplift, but in the grand scheme of things, like humanity's still doing pretty okay. It's not like we're back in the bubonic plagues days, when a third of humanity died.

John Shull 45:46

Yeah, no, we just have Logan Paul and Jake Paul, arguably worse, arguably worse, the Kardashian family, you know, all that good stuff.

Nick VinZant 45:59

Yeah, I just don't think that we have a single thing in our society that is going well, or seems to be promising, like, oh, that's getting better. Okay, well, go ahead,

John Shull 46:10

that's depressing. But all right, maybe we should go to something uplifting,

Nick VinZant 46:14

okay?

John Shull 46:15

Like, maybe some sweet summer tunes.

Nick VinZant 46:18

Oh, okay, I want to see what you did here, because I have a feeling that you did not quite get the top five that I am talking about. So I did top five summer songs, like these had to be songs of the summer, not songs about summer.

John Shull 46:36

Oh yeah, okay. Well,

Nick VinZant 46:39

that's fine. We'll just do two separate lists, and then berate them equally.

John Shull 46:45

So, you did songs that came out from what, like May to September

Nick VinZant 46:49

songs of the summer, like songs that you would say, "Oh, that was the summer in 2023, versus the song of it that was the summer in 2021 It's fine, we'll just go through it. I mean, it's not like our lists are highly educated anyway, but our top five is top five songs of the summer,

John Shull 47:04

all right. So my number five is Kokomo by the Beach Boys. Yeah, like I still don't know all the words, but I know the theme and the beat, and I, you know, mumble it, so

Nick VinZant 47:26

I mean that's such an old person song, like no 1819, 20 year old is like, yeah,

Speaker 1 47:31

Coco, oh

Nick VinZant 47:32

baby,

John Shull 47:33

for all you youngins out there, my list is pretty old, because there's these are classic songs that are still played throughout the summer.

Nick VinZant 47:42

Okay, so number, I went with songs that were named songs of the summer. My number five is Crazy in Love by Beyonce, which was a song of the summer back in the 2005 to 2010 times.

John Shull 47:56

Okay, I don't, I mean, I know that song, I don't, I don't particularly remember it being a song of the summer, but that's fine.

Nick VinZant 48:05

It was the song of the summer. Kokomo was never the song of the summer,

John Shull 48:10

probably not, but people are still singing Kokomo, like, you know, it's like Jimmy Buffett. You can literally just say Jimmy Buffett is the top five.

Nick VinZant 48:19

I have always disliked Jimmy Buffett, great artist, seemed like a nice guy, but I have always disliked Jimmy Buffett ever since I worked as a bartender and heard Margarita play every 30 minutes every night for years.

John Shull 48:35

I did leave Margaritaville off my list, by the way.

Nick VinZant 48:38

Thank you. Pathological hatred to that song.

John Shull 48:43

I can feel it coming through the computer screen.

Nick VinZant 48:45

Hate it, hate it. To number four,

John Shull 48:48

so my number four is Dancing Queen by Abba.

Nick VinZant 48:52

God dang, you such a lame ass. Yeah, dancing, I mean it's good songs. I'm just not 65

John Shull 49:03

yeah. But I mean, once again it comes on, and you're just like, okay, this is a cool gym. It's warm outside, I got a beer water in my hand, like it's just.. it's cool, like it's just legit.

Nick VinZant 49:14

My number four is Despacito.

John Shull 49:16

Okay, that's a good one. That's a big

Nick VinZant 49:19

song. That's a big song. Probably could've honestly had that higher up on my list of summer songs.

John Shull 49:25

Yeah, that's a good one. Uh, my number three is California Love by Tupac.

Nick VinZant 49:32

Oh, now that is one of my favorite songs. I love that song. No, I don't

John Shull 49:40

mind. You, I do agree to a certain.. I think I know what you're saying there, like that song can come on at any point, it's fantastic. Yeah, but man, if you're just outside in the summer on a summer night, and that song comes on like it's a banger,

Nick VinZant 49:53

oh, I would be willing to make a bet in that. The closer you are to the interior of the United States, the more that song is a summer song to you. If you're on the coasts, that's not so much of a summer song.

John Shull 50:10

Okay, even though the well, I got, well, yeah, the guys that made it were, you know, coast

John Shull 50:17

guys, but

Nick VinZant 50:18

yeah, that's why maybe it's not so much, because you kind of have, when you're on the coast, you kind of have more of that atmosphere in general. Life is a little bit more uplifting when the weather's nice than then when I lived in the Midwest. Yeah, well, you feel better about life when you're on the coast and the weather's nice in any time of year than you do in the Midwest.

John Shull 50:47

That's why your hair always looks good.

Nick VinZant 50:49

Exactly, stress-free life, baby. I'm actually 65

John Shull 50:54

What if all along, you know, we reveal our ages at the end of this, and it's like Nick is 73 and John is 63

Nick VinZant 51:01

My number three is Party Rock Anthem by LM FAO.

John Shull 51:05

Yeah, dude, that's a fantastic song.

Nick VinZant 51:07

That's a great, great song, man. Did they just blow themselves up though?

John Shull 51:13

Yeah, I don't even know what happened to them. Did they just like make a couple of hit albums and then just stop?

Nick VinZant 51:20

Yeah, I think success got to them. I think they made two good songs, and then success got to them, and they just said, you know what, screw

John Shull 51:27

it. I have to be

Nick VinZant 51:30

pretty pissed off to not work with somebody if I was making millions

John Shull 51:35

of dollars. My number two is by The Beatles, and it's called Here Comes the Sun, I you're

Nick VinZant 51:43

just.. I mean, it's a great song. You're just such an old man. You don't have a song that's in.. do you have a song earlier than that? Like, do you have a song later than the 1970s Are all your songs from the 1970s and earlier?

John Shull 52:00

My number one is late 80s,

Nick VinZant 52:04

you don't have a single thing that came out in the twos. All my songs came out in the twos.

John Shull 52:11

I mean, maybe if we were going, like, if we had actually talked about our lists, I would have put Desposito on my on my list, like for like number one summer songs, for sure, or top five summer songs, but like, yeah, I don't know, the just when I think of summer, like, these are some of the songs that pop into my head, and Desposito wasn't on that list at the time,

Nick VinZant 52:34

I'm surprised you didn't go with Yellow Submarine, so Marines are awesome. My number two is a bar song by Shabuzi. That was everywhere.

John Shull 52:49

That's a great, that's a yeah. I left country off on purpose, but that, that's an all I love Shabuzi, by the way. I have every EP album he's ever put out,

Nick VinZant 53:02

I never understand that. I don't understand the difference between record of the year, album of the year, EP of the year. I don't understand any of that. Is the record the song?

John Shull 53:13

No, I think song is song. I, I'm not sure what the difference is between an album and a record. An EP is an extended play, which is only supposed to be like two to five tracks, but yeah, so my number one, Summer of 69 by Brian Adams.

Nick VinZant 53:36

God,

John Shull 53:37

do like I also have to put it out there. I love Bryan Adams, so

Nick VinZant 53:44

I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. At no point in my life would I ever think that I would say the words I love Bryan Adams. I know Summer of 69 and that's the only song that I know from Bryan Adams.

John Shull 54:01

Yeah, I mean, there's.. I'm trying to.. I.. his biggest hit probably was the Robin Hood song. Remember that song, Everything I Do, I Do It for You?

Nick VinZant 54:12

That was Bryan Adams.

John Shull 54:13

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 54:16

no, I mean, yeah, I do everything I do,

John Shull 54:20

I do it for you.

Nick VinZant 54:24

An album is a collection of songs released together as a cohesive project. A record refers to the physical format used to play that music, or is used as a casual synonym, synonym for any recorded audio track or project. So, after reading that, I still don't understand it.

John Shull 54:42

I'm just gonna say they're the same thing.

Nick VinZant 54:44

Yeah, I'm just gonna say they're the same thing too. Uh, my number one, you had your number one.

John Shull 54:49

Yep.

Nick VinZant 54:50

Hope you're ready for this to be stuck in your head for the rest of the day. Call Me Maybe by Carly Rae Jepsen. It,

John Shull 55:00

so come on, maybe call me, maybe. I mean, it's, it's catchy, it's, it's a crap song, but it's fine. She made tons of money off it, so

Nick VinZant 55:10

yeah. Give me some crap music. You're over here with your eagles, and whatever.

John Shull 55:17

Listen, people who know me know that I love crap music. I don't know if I'm gonna go as low as Carly Rae Jepsen, but that's fine.

Nick VinZant 55:28

How many can openers do you have at your house?

John Shull 55:32

Can openers,

Nick VinZant 55:34

yeah,

John Shull 55:38

electric or manual?

Nick VinZant 55:41

You have an electric and a manual can opener. Do you have more than three can openers at your house?

John Shull 55:47

Yes.

Nick VinZant 55:50

Do you have more than five can openers at your house?

John Shull 55:53

No. I have.

Nick VinZant 55:54

So, you have four can openers. I

John Shull 55:56

have two manual and two automatic, but the automatic ones were gifted to me. I don't use them, but I have them just in case I ever need them for whatever reason.

Nick VinZant 56:09

I don't really know of any situation in which you would need to have more than one can opener at your house.

John Shull 56:15

Why, why, why, what sparked this question?

Nick VinZant 56:19

I just had to buy a can opener this weekend, because I broke our other can opener, and I thought to myself, as I was bringing this, I bet John has more than three can openers at his house, because this is the man who has 13 pairs of tongs,

John Shull 56:35

it's probably more like 10 now, I busted a couple already, I accidentally left one on the grill, and it melted. That was a, that was a great time.

Nick VinZant 56:50

Unreal, unless you have some really good ones in your honorable mention.

John Shull 56:56

Nope, I'm just gonna be walking on sunshine. Hey,

Nick VinZant 57:00

that's a good song. I like walking on sunshine. I'm walking on sunshine,

John Shull 57:07

and it's time to feel good

Nick VinZant 57:10

by ending it. Oh, okay. That's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review, we really appreciate it. Really helps out the show. And let us know what you think are the best summer songs. Have fun enjoying Call Me Maybe play in your head for the next week, because that's what's happening to me right now.

I'm Attracted to Water with Aquaphilia Content Creator Raven Lynette

As an Aquaphiliac Raven Lynette loves the water. But this isn't about just swimming around.

In this episode of Profoundly Pointless we explore Aquaphilia. We talk why people are attracted to water, the kinds of things Aquaphiliacs like to do in the water and her most interesting requests.

00:00 Introducing Raven Lynette

01;06 What is Aquaphilia

03:08 What Aquaphiliacs are Looking For

05:26 When Water is Sexy

08:20 Why the Type of Water Matters

09:41 How Popular is Aquaphilia

12:20 Aquaphilia and Mermaids

14:28 Most Interesting Requests

16:52 Pointless

37:01 Candle of the Month

42:22 The Top 5 Batteries

Contact the Show

Raven Lynette Website

Raven Lynette TikTok

Raven Lynette Instagram



Interview with Aquaphiliac Raven Lynette

Nick VinZant 0:01

Nick, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick Vinzant. Coming up in this episode, aquaphilia and batteries.

Speaker 1 0:21

Sometimes they just want to see me hold my breath, like they don't want any kind of like danger element or anything traditionally sexual happening. Yeah, I had one request where that was the main point of the video, was being in the open ocean with a current that would carry away my clothes. It was a peril clip, so I was a, I was diving for treasure, and there's a giant snake guarding the treasure that attacks me and tries to drown me.

Nick VinZant 0:50

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, give us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it, really helps out the show. So, I want to get right to our first guest. This is Aquaphiliac Raven Lynette. So, what is aquaphilia?

Speaker 1 1:07

For some people, it is just like being wet, feeling the water. For others, it's a breath play thing. For me, I just.. I've always loved the water. I love diving. I love being in the ocean. I love anything to do with the water.

Nick VinZant 1:21

When did you discover this about yourself?

Speaker 1 1:24

I saw a photo of underwater photography in a gallery, and I thought it was just like the most beautiful thing, like it looked like a painting, but it was photo that's kind of like the unique properties of waters, it can make something look really painterly and dreamlike. And then I had also been doing Only Fans, and I also got into doing rope work, like Shibari and bondage, and I really loved that, and I think I kind of loved certain aspects of that kind of overlapped with the sensation of being underwater, like the lack of control and the sensory deprivation, and so one day I just had this crazy idea, like I love bondage, and I love being underwater, so why don't I do bondage underwater? And then someone reached out and asked if I would shoot a custom video for them, of me pretending to almost drown, and I did, and then that kind of just like it took off. I started to get like a lot of requests to do drowning videos or different perilous situations underwater.

Nick VinZant 2:36

For the requests that you get in that regard, is it about the water for those, or is it more about the situation that somebody is in danger, however you want to phrase that.

Speaker 1 2:48

I think it's both. I think so, like in the fetish world, damsel in distress or peril are both really popular fetishes, and I think being underwater adds a whole other element of extra danger, because you don't have to be tied up underwater for it to still be dangerous.

Nick VinZant 3:08

So, when I watch more mainstream stuff, right, like there's certain things that I am looking for, like I'm looking for that in the things that I watch, are there things that people in this genre that they're looking for that,

Speaker 1 3:24

yeah. So, sometimes I will just get requests for breath hold videos, specifically the underwater ones. Sometimes they just want to see me hold my breath, like they don't want any kind of like danger element or anything traditionally sexual happening, sometimes they just want to watch me sit there, about framed up, about like this, just holding my breath underwater, and with those ones I also like to see the contractions, so when you're holding your breath for an extended period of time, once you get past the initial urge to breathe, so like the average person holds their breath for maybe 30 seconds, 30 to 50 seconds will get the urge to breathe, and they'll breathe. If you push past that point, your diaphragm starts to involuntarily contract, trying to force your body to breathe, and you can actually see that, like, on your stomach, and so some of those videos were just a breath-holding video, they want to see, like, they want to see the contractions happening, there's other people that specifically like the peril and the danger, the struggling and the screaming and the panic, like the panic underwater and I some of those I feel I think a lot of those like stem from like movies that they saw or I know a couple who have had like real life near drowning experiences and they don't even like being in the water but watching it is exciting or. Or it could even be a form of therapy, like exposure therapy, maybe, and then other things that people like underwater, they like the long hair flowing, they like a mermaid thing, that's a whole sub genre, mermaids, bikinis, like bikinis, people like wetsuits, people like the look of a dive mask, the way it changed your face.

Nick VinZant 5:26

I get the idea of it. I guess the thing that I don't quite understand is, like, but what about the water is sexual?

Speaker 1 5:33

I don't think it's water itself that's sexual. I think it's the effect it has on the body, specifically. with breath holding, I mean, and like just tactile, like the feel like you feel weightless and luxurious and sensual underwater, like I mean, like taking a warm bath can be a sensual experience, going for skinny dipping can be essential, like sensory experience, but I think it's, it's flies in mostly to the lack of oxygen and the breath holding aspect.

Nick VinZant 6:10

Would you say are there other kink slash fetishes slash whatever that go along with it that are outside of the water, like, oh, if they're gonna like this, they're gonna probably also like this, that is not related to water

Speaker 1 6:26

spandex swimsuit fetish. I mean, I've done videos where I'm just laying in my bed and dive gear, not in the water, but I'm wearing all the underwater gear, Carol damsel in distress, you know, various aspects of BDSM, the whole like power dynamic and control, and giving up control. But I think probably the most closely related would be breath play.

Nick VinZant 6:55

Have you ever had an incident that's like, well, I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 1 6:59

I did do a self bondage underwater, where I was chained to a like 50 pound dumbbell, bottom of the pool, and I don't do it by myself. Whenever I'm filming underwater, like disclaimer, like I have someone there at safety, because it only takes one mistake to die, so I don't want to do that, so but I did have a scare where I couldn't. I tried to make it like quick release the chain, and so it was cuffed, I was chained, cuffed my ankles are cuffed together, and I was like a couple inches right below the surface, where I couldn't, you know, breathe, and I went down to unhook my chain, and it like got stuck, but I used like a cheap, like thin chain with like a cheap latch, and I was able to just like yank it and and break it, and also I was close enough to the surface where if I gave like one big like push I could get my mouth out of the water to breathe if I had to, but there was that like moment of panic, like, oh shit, like this isn't coming undone as easily as it could, and I need breathe now, but it was totally fine.

Nick VinZant 8:15

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Speaker 1 8:18

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 8:20

does the type of water matter? Are people more interested in, like, a pool versus a stream, or a lake versus a brook, a river? I could go on with all the various bodies of water, if you want me to.

Speaker 1 8:33

I think probably, realistically, like logistically, it's hard to get anything in a natural body of water,

Nick VinZant 8:44

they want it, but this logistically you can't really do it.

Speaker 1 8:48

Yeah, so I had, like, my, for example, one of my favorite custom videos I did, actually, it was a scene was I was a free diver diving for treasure in, like, a lagoon or something, or the ocean, and just like logistically with all the props I would need, and trying to team up with, you know, someone to film me and someone to be safety. Just doing it in a pool made more sense.

Nick VinZant 9:17

Have you ever had somebody that the body of water really mattered to them, like, no, no, that's an inland sea, and I was looking for a fjord, or whatever, like, I don't, that's

Speaker 1 9:31

yeah, I had one request where that was the main point of the video, was being in the open ocean with a current that would carry away my clothes,

Nick VinZant 9:41

how popular would you say this

Speaker 1 9:44

is? It's definitely one of the smaller, like lesser-known fetishes. I would say it's probably getting a little bit more popular, but it's definitely a small niche.

Nick VinZant 9:56

What is mask off, mask on,

Speaker 1 9:58

so like a. A popular drill in diving, free diving, or scuba diving is filling and purging your mask, so if your mask fills with water, you don't panic, you know how to like purge it. So I've done videos where I do that, like I'm wearing my mask and I let water in, let it fill with water, and then I put it back on, and then I blow air out of my nose till it, the water goes out. People like that, and also, yeah, starting with the mask on, so you have that like comfortability and safety of the mask, and then taking it off underwater. I've done that. Some people just specifically like the look of a dive mask, and they want mask on the whole time, and while other people like the look of no dive masks, and they, or they know the feeling, the sensations of being underwater without a mask, and like, how uncomfortable that can be, so they prefer that.

Nick VinZant 10:59

Is it ever in again, I'll use this word, I don't mean this word, but is it? Does it ever go into kind of the more normal stuff? Like, I just want to see somebody do their thing in a hot tub.

Speaker 1 11:10

Oh yeah, for sure. My most popular selling video is just like normal boy, girl, you know, horn, just in, in the water, underwater.

Nick VinZant 11:20

Yeah, that's the thing, is like logistically that seems kind of difficult, like you're both going to be underwater, that's the part of me, like, how do you do this logistically? Yeah, you just go down for like 1015, seconds, pop back up, go back down, pop back up, like that seems like a lot of work.

Speaker 1 11:37

It is a lot of work, and it is a lot of up and down, and so filming it, I am kind of like, I don't want to like make any like my fans sad or whatever, but I, it is, it is kind of like a okay, like, okay, ready, we're gonna go under, I'm gonna eat your pussy, and then we're gonna come up and and breathe really quick, and it's very like there's a lot of talking that it's not like a genuine feverish like thing happening organically,

Nick VinZant 12:06

right? Because you can't like the thing that I would think of is it's two people just kind of going at it,

Speaker 1 12:11

yeah,

Nick VinZant 12:11

but then you got to take a break, get some air,

Speaker 1 12:15

a lot of timing involved, unless you're on scuba, then you can just go at

Nick VinZant 12:20

it. Is mermaids part of this, or is this a whole.. oh, that's no, that's a whole other thing.

Speaker 1 12:26

Um, mermaids are part of it, but they're also their own thing.

Nick VinZant 12:30

What's the appeal of the mermaid? That's just

Speaker 1 12:33

the mysticalness. The mermaids, I mean, I've done both, so like mermaids are often like, like the siren dragging sailors to their doom, kind of thing. So, there's that aspect, and there's also like capturing a mermaid. So, I've done a few videos where I'm a captured, like, captive mermaid.

Nick VinZant 12:58

What is your most common request?

Speaker 1 13:01

Drowning, usually. usually

Nick VinZant 13:03

do they want it just to go like right up to the limit or no? They want you to act like you have drowned, because to me those are two different, like that's a little different. Yeah,

Speaker 1 13:17

yeah, I definitely have like I've had questions about these types of fetishes, because there's also like death fetish, like that's a thing that's not allowed to be sold in on most platforms, but it is a thing, and I've done some, like on dry land, where after I was done, I was like, I feel weird about that, but the drowning ones specifically, I don't know if it's just because I just like playing in the water, so I'll do anything in the water, but they doesn't like unsettle me as much as just normal death better stuff does, and I think it's also because the people that have asked me to do these drowning videos, they're not like, oh, I really want to see the light drain from your eyes, and I want to see you suffer.

Nick VinZant 14:06

They're not super strange about it. Yeah,

Speaker 1 14:08

they're it's more like they're putting them themselves in my shoes, like they're imagining that that that it's that they're the one drowning, or almost drowning.

Nick VinZant 14:19

That makes sense to me.

Speaker 1 14:21

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 14:21

right. Like, they're not thinking of you doing this, they're thinking of themselves doing this.

Speaker 1 14:26

Yeah, or, or doing it with me.

Nick VinZant 14:28

Your most interesting one, like one that you're like, "Oh, that is.. I have not gotten

Speaker 1 14:33

that before. The one I mentioned earlier, the free diver diving for treasure, part of that video was it was a peril clip, so I was a, I was diving for treasure, and there's a giant snake guarding the treasure that attacks me and tries to drown me. That was the first time I'd ever gotten anything like that, and I haven't gotten anything like that since. That was, yeah, super fun. So it had a giant toy. Snake that I attached fishing line to, and dragged it around the pool, and wrapped it around me, and like I'm wrestling it, and it's trying to drag me to my doom, but I survived that one, I escaped that one, a lot of, a lot of the drowning ones I end up drowning, but they're more like a, it's like more of a like letting go, like surrendering to to the pleasure, like you're so lost in pleasure you just lose all control and forget to breathe.

Nick VinZant 15:34

Yeah, that to me, I get that right, like that's completely different than like ending, ending, that's more just like I have accepted the circumstances.

Speaker 1 15:41

Yeah, yeah.

Nick VinZant 15:43

What's kind of the next evolution of it? Do you see it going somewhere else?

Speaker 1 15:47

Um, like, there are, you know, like dungeons and like sex clubs and sex parties and things like that, where you can do stuff in real life. Um, it'd be interesting to see, like, an underwater version of that done safely,

Nick VinZant 16:03

that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything you think that we missed?

Speaker 1 16:06

Or I did kind of want to touch on like the whole peril and fear and like danger of it all. I like to kind of compare it to like enjoying horror movies and roller coasters like sometimes being scared is fun, but like pleasure centers and fear centers of the brain are very intermingled, very close together, and so I think that's where kind of a lot of it stems from, especially like all the drowning stuff.

Nick VinZant 16:36

I want to thank Raven so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. On a scale of one to 10, how good of a cook do you think that you are?

John Shull 17:03

Eight. Oh, I'd say an eight. I mean, I can spice it up if needed, or I can go basic and make macaroni and cheese. Like, what? What makes you know an average person a good chef? I think it's being able to do everything.

Nick VinZant 17:18

This goes into my thing that I think people vastly overestimate how good or bad they are at something, because I polled the audience about this: 10% of people said between one and 330, 5% of people said between four and six, 40% of people said six to eight, and 15% of people said eight to 10 in terms of how good they were at cooking, so I think that people vastly overestimate how good or how bad they are at something. So, you think you're an eight, I would say you're probably a six.

John Shull 17:56

I think most people, I wouldn't say eight to 10, like that's upper echelon, like that's that's definitely a little overbearing, but I think most people are within the four to eight range, probably. I mean,

Nick VinZant 18:09

I would say most people are probably in the four to six range. Like, if you have, if you're an eight, if you're a legitimate eight, you should have a restaurant. That's the way that I look at it like to be an eight or a nine or a 10, because okay, think about it like this. This is the way that I look at it, like if you're an eight in sports, you're probably playing high level college basketball, like a nine is a pro and a 10 is a generational talent in terms of that. So, if you're an eight, what is the college high-level college basketball equivalent of cooking? That would be owning your own restaurant.

John Shull 18:48

I do agree with that. My other, my counter argument to what you just said, though, would be that just because you don't make it to the pros doesn't mean you're not a pro. I mean, how many chefs out there should have their own restaurant? They just don't, for whatever, whatever reason. I mean, that would be working.

Nick VinZant 19:06

I get where you're going, and I would agree with you if you're looking at people who are in the eights, but if you're somebody who cooks at a 10 level, you are doing that professionally, like people have pushed you out there and encouraged you, or made the circumstances possible, where you are doing that, so I think if you're really, really, really good at something, you end up doing that at a very high level professionally. Otherwise, you're just not really that good.

John Shull 19:35

I understand. I don't know if I agree with that thought on that, but I don't think I don't think average people are nines or 10s, eights pushing it. I'm not saying that I'm up there eight wise, but in my mind I think I'm an eight, because I can cook a wide variety of foods, I can cook them fast if I need to, and they're. Delicious, but and I have an honest, all you know, I have an honest wife who lets me know when something's crap, so I have a pretty good balance in my life. At least,

Nick VinZant 20:13

my concern is that what seems to be the only thing that you're cooking is your face. Can we talk about why you're not wearing sunscreen and spending endless hours outside,

John Shull 20:24

I don't know how to tell. I mean, that's that's what it is, man. I've, yeah, I've been outside. I'm probably outside more than I am inside on most days now. I mean, during the sun, of course.

Nick VinZant 20:38

Yeah, well, yeah, I guess that, yeah, it's a good qualifier there, but I just don't understand, like, what part of you is like, you know, what I'm going to be outside for five hours today, should I put on sunscreen? Well, no, I did put

John Shull 20:50

sunscreen this past weekend, but obviously it's too late to a certain degree, but it is what it is, I mean, I'm Irish and German, like this happens. Should I have been smarter and probably prevented it? Prevented it, it probably, but I also didn't think a May 65 degree day in Michigan was gonna burn the shit out of me. So here we are.

Nick VinZant 21:18

Don't, don't you check how many cities are currently on your weather rotation that you look at on your phone, where you go through and you look at what the weather is in all of these cities? Just can you tell real quick, tell me how many different cities are on that?

John Shull 21:32

I mean, I found I actually went through and updated it not so long ago. Let's see, nine,

Nick VinZant 21:42

so you have nine cities that you can check the weather on almost relatively instantly. I also know that on that list of weather in the cities is the UV index, so you could check the UV index.

John Shull 21:57

Sure, I could, but I did it,

Nick VinZant 22:01

this like, look, sunscreen is my pet peeve. I get mad when people don't put sunscreen on and they're not taking care of themselves. It's something that's really easy to do, but when you go to the doctor and get diagnosed with skin cancer, like, what are you gonna say? Like, oops, you're gonna get mad, you're gonna be like, why me? Why me? Are you just going to be like, yeah, I knew this was going to happen, and I didn't do anything about it. So, as long as you take it like a man, that's fine.

John Shull 22:27

I've already had three melanoma removed, so I'm already there. I get checked every, every year in August, like I'm doing what I'm supposed to. I've already admitted that I should have worn sunscreen, but it is what you're not

Nick VinZant 22:43

doing. What you're supposed to, you're not doing what you're supposed to. If you're doing what you're supposed to, you would have put on sunscreen before you went out there,

John Shull 22:50

but I didn't. But I did this past weekend. It's a mute point.

Nick VinZant 22:54

It's not a mute point. You got to learn your lesson. I'm getting upset. If I was your doctor, if I was that dermatologist, and be like, yep, so you are 40 years old, roughly. You've had three things removed from your body already, and you decided that you're gonna spend all these hours outside not wearing sunscreen. If I was your doctor and there weren't various laws to ban this, I would just punch you straight in the face, punch you right in the mouth,

John Shull 23:20

what's the, what's the deeper root here? Why, why are you, why is it your pet peeve?

Nick VinZant 23:26

Oh, sunscreen,

John Shull 23:28

yeah, why, why is it your pet peeve?

Nick VinZant 23:30

Because it's an incredibly easy thing that people can do to protect themselves from something that is going to affect them in their lives. It's like not putting on a seat belt, like no, I just didn't

John Shull 23:43

do it. I mean, all I'm hearing is that you really care about me. So,

Nick VinZant 23:47

oh yeah, I'm not gonna disagree with that.

John Shull 23:50

Wow, when you

Nick VinZant 23:51

are dead from cancer at 50 and you leave your children fatherless because you didn't want to spend five seconds putting on sunscreen, think about that. That's the choice that you're making.

John Shull 24:03

Wow, you're going that deep on me. I'm

Nick VinZant 24:05

going.. it's.. I'm sorry to be the one to call and tell you the truth.

John Shull 24:09

I mean, I don't think.. I don't think I look this red in jet, like I think it's this, the camera, the lights. I don't think I look that red.

Nick VinZant 24:18

You look like a Twizzler, you. That's what you look like. You look like a Twizzler right now.

John Shull 24:27

All right. Well, can we? Should we move on? Shout outs. I think I think we've had enough of this. All right, let's do some shout outs now. We're going to start with Enter Fox, Quinton Anderson, Marjorie Franklin, and Marjorie gonna give her some love, because her profile picture, which I think was her, she's probably 95 so apparently we appeal to the elderly of the elderly, Isaiah Miles, Nicole Venezuela, Emmanuel Watson, Kathy Best. Walter Walters, man Robin Lucas, and Nigel Mathis. Good level, good Nigel.

Nick VinZant 25:08

I like a good Nigel. You pretty much know that they're from Europe,

John Shull 25:12

all right. Not

Nick VinZant 25:12

going to run into, you're not going to run into a lot of American Nigels. I think there needs to be more Robins. Robin is one of those classic, but not real common names.

John Shull 25:24

Okay, yeah, with a Y or an I, or both.

Nick VinZant 25:30

Well, a Y if it's a girl, an I if it's a boy. You can't have a boy with an R O B Y N.

John Shull 25:39

Yeah, no, I don't think so. I don't even think you can really have a robin as a boy if you're going traditional names. I don't think

Nick VinZant 25:46

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that five letters is the perfect number of letters for a name. Five letter names are the best names.

John Shull 25:59

I don't know about that. I think four letter names are better.

Nick VinZant 26:04

No, because you're a John, I'm a Nick. My son is a Logan and a Riley. Those are both better names than John and Nick. Five letters, five letters is traditional, but just a little bit different.

John Shull 26:22

No disrespect. disrespect to your children's names, but I think John and Nick are better names.

Nick VinZant 26:26

Vin, you're wrong. I just.. I mean, no,

John Shull 26:30

no, like Chris. Chris sucks. Sorry for all you Chris's. Vince sucks. Chris sucks. Brandt sucks. Butch sucks

Nick VinZant 26:42

all the crappy ones,

John Shull 26:45

Dave Maria

Nick VinZant 26:45

Mar, Maria. I think that a five letter, I think five letter names are better than four letter names.

John Shull 26:56

I got, I gotta disagree,

Nick VinZant 26:58

man.

John Shull 26:58

Gotta disagree with you,

Nick VinZant 27:00

possibly even an extra syllable, because five letters gets you that extra syllable.

John Shull 27:06

No, I gotta, nah, man, four, four letters is where it's at, and I'm not being biased either.

Nick VinZant 27:13

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm a four letter, and I would go five. Okay? Are you ready?

John Shull 27:19

Yeah. What are we doing? Which part

Nick VinZant 27:21

you know, which part we're not doing the candle thing until later. Stop trying to push it up in the show.

John Shull 27:26

I'm so excited. I have a fantastic candle that was given to me by the most unsuspecting of people, but I guess we'll come back to it. How do you feel about automated vehicles like these Waymo robotaxis.

Nick VinZant 27:47

Oh, I trust computers more than I trust people.

John Shull 27:51

See, I'm.. I was all about it four or five years ago, whenever they really started kind of developing the technology. I saw one of these things in action over the weekend, and it was fine. Just, just throwing that out there, it was a test model. They were running it around Metro Detroit, for whatever reason. I guess it was fine. There was no issues, but just the thought of like an unmanned vehicle driving around just kind of gave me the the hebes, and I don't want to be old like an old man, you know. I understand that's where we're going. Thank you, but it was just weird. I don't know how else to say it, and I'm not sure how I would feel if there was even a quarter of those compared to how many of people driven cars out on the road.

Nick VinZant 28:43

I am really against AI. I do not like the idea of AI, because I think that it replaces what makes us who we are, which is our ability to think. Like, people need to be able to still continue to think, and I think that when people use AI a lot, they don't think and use their brain as much as they should be. And I don't like the idea of, like, well, we should put in this technology with no idea how to replace it, but when it comes to self-driving cars, I'm completely okay with that. I'm completely okay with computers taking over tasks that we don't really need to

John Shull 29:16

do. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, we have to drive, right? Most people have to drive to and from work to stores like your AI. Your AI statement's pretty spot on for me, and I think the scariest thing is we control it, but yet we make it to the point to where it's going to be uncontrollable, which is super scary to think about. It might already be there, I don't know.

Nick VinZant 29:39

Oh yeah, we can't control something that you fundamentally cannot control, something that is smarter than you, like you can't out think someone who is smarter than you. You might be able to get lucky for a little bit, but eventually that thing is going to outsmart you, and something that is magnet orders of magnitude smarter than us. But I'm completely okay with self-driving cars, completely. Completely okay with self-driving cars, and I actually hope that that speeds up, because if you have self-driving cars and you kind of take out the human variable of it, I think traffic could move a whole lot slower. Like, just think about when you're at a red light and one person goes, and then another person goes, and then another person goes. Like, how much time do you spend waiting for the person in front of you to go, if that was just automated by computers, and all of those cars went at the same time, like right as that car turn, that light turns green. Think of how much smoother traffic goes. So, I think it would be fantastic. I'm all for it. I ain't again, it I'm for

John Shull 30:42

it. Okay. Okay, yeah, I'm still on the fence. We'll see. Obviously, it's gonna.. it's coming.

Nick VinZant 30:48

Sorry again. Are you again it or fur it? Are you fur it or again it?

John Shull 30:54

What's in the middle of that? I'm again.. I'm a.. I'm a ferg in it. Like, I don't know. Try to combine the two stupid names.

Nick VinZant 31:03

Are you for it or again? It

John Shull 31:07

for drop for driverless cars. I'm for it, I guess. I don't, that just doesn't sound correct to say

Nick VinZant 31:16

it just does. Is it for it? I'm fur it. No, I'm a guinea.

John Shull 31:20

You're gonna go have a ferret. You're gonna jump in a turret. Like, what are we doing for it? You want some fur?

Nick VinZant 31:26

I'm just fur it. I'm fur being fur it or again it. I'm not again being again or fur it. I'm fur being fur again.

John Shull 31:36

Those of you that might stumble onto one of our shorts and see my red face, just know that 85% of it is the fact that I'm sunburned, probably, but the other 15% is out of rage, just against Nick saying the word for it, and again, it to be honest.

Nick VinZant 31:51

Did you shave your face, but not your neck?

John Shull 31:54

No, nope, I just haven't shaved it into two and a half weeks.

Nick VinZant 31:59

Oh, that's that's pathetic, if that's what you look like after two and a half weeks, that's pathetic. That's pathetic.

John Shull 32:07

Thank you. We've talked about it.

Nick VinZant 32:08

Yeah, you can't grow nothing. Dang, dude, I would at least, you would at least notice it. Although I've reached the age where I'm getting a little salt and pepper in there.

John Shull 32:16

That boy, well, you always look sharp. It was got good hair.

Nick VinZant 32:20

Thank you. Little salt and pepper in that beard, though. Okay, all right. You got anything else? Are you just going to move on to the only thing that you ever want to talk about, which is candles?

John Shull 32:29

I mean, I wanted to talk World Cup, but you know, I'm because I'm just.. I just feel like it's just so disappointing. I like, yeah, Canada, Mexico. like that's. and once again, we don't live there, but you just see all the stuff coming out of those countries, because they're host countries too, and it's all about the World Cup, and that's what we should be. But yet, I feel like I feel like I'm going to say this and be definitive in this: 97% of Americans, if you were to ask any of them to name one national team player, they couldn't name you a single player.

Nick VinZant 33:05

Oh, I couldn't, for the, you, you're talking for the United States, obviously, where I couldn't just get lucky and say Ronaldo

John Shull 33:12

from the US team only,

Nick VinZant 33:14

not a clue, not not a single clue, like not a first name, not a last name, like I couldn't even just be like, oh, that Craig guy couldn't nothing, but the United States isn't any good,

John Shull 33:28

yeah, but I mean, that's the, we're the home, I mean, I get what you're saying 1,000% but we're the whole nation, like, it's, it just, it baffles me, I mean,

Nick VinZant 33:37

but here's the thing, too, to me about the World Cup is that if we wanted to, if the United States wanted to, we would absolutely wreck everybody else. If we took who the people who are our best athletes, the Lebron James is the NFL cornerbacks, the wide receivers, the best athletes that we have, and had them play soccer, we would destroy people, so yeah, you have soccer, but it's because we are letting you have soccer, so the rest of the world don't get cocky about it. If we wanted it, we could take it.

John Shull 34:10

Let us such American narcissism attitude. I are you going to

Nick VinZant 34:15

disagree with that, though? Are you going to disagree that the United States has the best athletes in the world, and then, if we put the best athletes in the world into that, we would destroy people

John Shull 34:28

just to save 10 minutes. No, I do not think we have the best athletes in the world, and I do not think even LeBron James himself could step onto a soccer field and dominate, even with training. I just.. I don't think he would.

Nick VinZant 34:44

You're talking about somebody who's fundamentally one of the most athletic people who have ever lived. A person that is incredibly fast has something like a 40 plus inch vertical, is six eight and 260 pounds. Like that dude is just gonna just kill you, he. It's not even a competition, like basketball players alone, because they're agile, they're fast, they're explosive, they're all of that stuff, they're all of the things that you need a soccer player to be, except bigger and stronger and faster.

John Shull 35:15

I mean, I'm not, I don't want people to think I'm taking anything away from LeBron, he is one of the greatest specimens that we know that's ever been created. I just, I don't, I don't think, I don't think those are the best athletes. I just, I don't kind of, I'm kind of skewed.

Nick VinZant 35:33

Yeah, here's, here's where I can like shut this down with some factual evidence. If you look at the fastest soccer players, the fastest soccer player, because I just happened to be watching this other day, ran 22 miles an hour while playing soccer. The fastest NFL players are running 20 twos and 20 threes with pads on, with other people holding on to them and chasing them. So this isn't a competition, like I don't think it's even really a boisterous statement to say that our athletes are really good, and our best athletes aren't playing soccer.

John Shull 36:09

I know you thought you shut it down, but I think there's a thing in beating somebody to a spot and then being able to take a lob pass, or being able to catch a ball, and then dribble,

Nick VinZant 36:19

being able to catch a ball, like being able to catch a ball, while somebody else has this trying to keep you from catching that ball, and is also trying to tackle you, and you're able to just get away from them. I'm sorry. Look, listen, this isn't an argument that we even have to have, because I'm in Seattle, where we have champions. I'm a champion, I know what it takes to be a champion, and you're in Detroit, you don't know what it takes to be a champion. You can't speak about sports, you're not a champion. You don't have your hand in the dirt. Your hands,

John Shull 36:51

anyone to think that I agree with anything that you said, that's all I want. We can move on. Okay. Well, it's time, isn't it.

Nick VinZant 37:01

Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's time the Outlaw Candle connoisseur rides again. Candle of the month,

John Shull 37:13

make this fast, because I know you got stuff to do. The people listening,

Nick VinZant 37:18

always have time. I think our top five is going to go really quickly, but go ahead with your candles.

John Shull 37:23

So, this was this candle was given to me. I actually had forgotten that I was given it about a decade ago, and I was cleaning out some stuff in my basement, and I was like, oh hell, here's a candle that I forgot about. So, this person I don't have to talk to anymore. It was a going away gift, actually. When I left Florida, so it's been more than a decade ago. But, needless to say, the candle, which is made by the Do Candle Company, is its label is basically the Blockbuster logo, though they can't legally use the Blockbuster logo, so it's just called Video Store, and I love, I love, love, love the way that they promo this candle, because it says that, like, the first layer is going to be like carpet dust, like soft wood, you know, stale cigarettes, the second layer is gonna be like that, that machine smell, you know, dusty video game prints, things like that, which all really translate to it's gonna, it's kind of like a pecan, like vanilla, lots of vanilla in the candle, but it's, you get two things when you burn it, and they have, they have like five different sizes: one wick, two wick, four wick, you know, things like that. But you're gonna get two things, you're gonna get nostalgia, right? Because everyone went to Blockbuster, if you're our age, or a family video, right? So it's dope, it's sweet, it's cool, you know, the way that they design the package on the candles, awesome. And then, secondly, I mean, you have five options to choose from. You can get 100 and 100 plus hours of burn time, or 20 plus hours of burn time. Like, it's great. And I don't think I've ever featured this candle company. I'd do a little research. I had to post on the candle forums, sent him crazy, except for old.. I won't say her last name, but Gene B, who said Deal Candle Company, they're amazing, like. And then we had a whole.. we had a whole separate message thing about it. So, anyways, Candle the Month from Deal Candle Company, that's called Video Store. Check it out.

Nick VinZant 39:39

What's your. what. what. what's your screen name on the candle form? I'm

John Shull 39:44

not, I'm not gonna say that publicly

Nick VinZant 39:48

able to, if I, if I get on the candle form, would I be able to figure out that it's you?

John Shull 39:55

Oof, that's a yeah, probably, just because you know my man. Energyisms and work and things, but like my profile, I don't, I don't use my real name on purpose, so oh,

Nick VinZant 40:08

you don't have, you're not gonna go say it with your chest, then you know, hot little keyboard warrior back there.

John Shull 40:14

Well, I started off this, it was kind of a joke at first, and then I actually realized, like any niche that our niche that people love this, so I, you know, I wanted to make sure that I participated fully, but you know, didn't get too in the weeds.

Nick VinZant 40:32

I was going to make fun of you, but that is also a word that I can not really sure exactly how to pronounce it, so I never know,

John Shull 40:41

is it niche or niche, I think, like each niche.

Nick VinZant 40:46

I always feel like I'm gonna say niche, niche. Okay? Do you have a.. do you have a nemesis in the can of forms? Is there, like,

John Shull 40:56

we've talked about.. always,

Nick VinZant 40:57

always comment on my pope.

John Shull 40:59

No, I mean, there's certain topics that, of course, draw bots and people that are just there to stir trouble, but the candle forums are usually pretty peaceful. It's they're very well moderated too. The people that do the moderation are very, they're on top of it, they're very fast. So,

Nick VinZant 41:15

do you think you do you think you have what it takes to be a moderator someday? Is that your goal to work up to a moderator?

John Shull 41:21

I don't, I don't want to be a moderator, but yes, I think if I, I think, I think I could be a moderator, but I don't want to be.

Nick VinZant 41:30

Well, by all means, never have the courage to find out what you really got.

John Shull 41:37

Fair, I'm never gonna find out how good I am there.

Nick VinZant 41:42

Okay, all right. Just a quick reminder, after the candle of the month segment, that John has had sex at least twice.

John Shull 41:51

Yes, at least twice, that we know, at least twice

Nick VinZant 41:55

with a woman,

John Shull 41:56

yes, with, hey, whatever, but yes, whatever, but with another,

Nick VinZant 42:00

but I, what I should have said, with another person,

John Shull 42:03

yeah, yeah, at least twice,

Nick VinZant 42:06

at least twice. Okay? Are you ready for our top five? I have no idea how this is going to go. This is a great idea when I was pretty high on Saturday or Friday, but, man, all of a sudden, in reality, I don't know if it's a good idea or not.

John Shull 42:19

I think I have a really good top five list, actually.

Nick VinZant 42:22

Okay, all right. So, our top five is top five batteries. It's your number five.

John Shull 42:28

I don't know why you're laughing. There's a lot of batteries. Uh, alright, so my number five is the power bank battery, and those are the basically the batteries that you use to plug it and charge other devices that have batteries, so it's like a rechargeable battery pack, essentially. So maybe a battery pack is probably the better way to put it.

Nick VinZant 42:49

Okay, okay. I also have a big old battery in my top five, like big old batteries. You just can't go wrong with a big old battery, that's what I want. So my number five is a lan a lantern battery, you just can't go wrong with a big old battery,

John Shull 43:07

like it's a

Nick VinZant 43:08

lantern battery.

John Shull 43:09

Yeah, but doesn't have, like, isn't like a G or something like battery, you know, the DC.

Nick VinZant 43:16

I actually looked this up, and I was a little bit confused if a lantern battery is technically what my number four

John Shull 43:24

is, so I'm just gonna

Nick VinZant 43:24

go ahead and say it's different.

John Shull 43:26

All right, fair enough. My number four are the AAA batteries, the smaller ones.

Nick VinZant 43:32

Ruh, I wonder what you're going to have up at the top of there, because I would have had triple A at least in the top three.

John Shull 43:40

I mean, I'm pretty sure you have my final three somewhere on your list, but there's a couple of really big ones out there.

Nick VinZant 43:49

My number four is a D battery, yeah. Just whenever you got a big old battery, you know you're gonna be doing something fun, like, oh, it's gonna be cool. So big old battery,

John Shull 44:02

so far all your list has consisted of is you saying the word big old battery, so I love big

Nick VinZant 44:07

old batteries, man. Get some big old batteries out there,

John Shull 44:10

that's a win. Um, my number three in.. I'm probably gonna regret this, but my number three is your phone battery,

Nick VinZant 44:22

okay? Can you replace your phone battery,

John Shull 44:27

and when your battery starts to die, you have to get a new battery, you have to get a new phone, essentially. So, you know,

Nick VinZant 44:36

I have some bad news. I think, like, as you can see, it's starting like it's literally starting to come apart. I think I'm, I think I might have to get a new phone by 2027 Definitely within 2027 I'm gonna have to get a new phone, which would be my first new phone since 2016

John Shull 44:58

Good, I mean.

Nick VinZant 45:00

It's going to be devastating to me.

John Shull 45:02

Your fingers will rejoice.

Nick VinZant 45:04

My number three is a triple A,

John Shull 45:07

okay?

Nick VinZant 45:09

But I'm always just disappointed whenever I have to use a triple A, because it's not a double A, like number two.

John Shull 45:19

So, speaking of my number two is the double A battery.

Nick VinZant 45:23

Your number two is the double A.

John Shull 45:25

It was, it's tough, it's tough, it's a tough decision between my number one and number two, but my number one gets it based on something I'll mention in a minute.

Nick VinZant 45:37

Okay, my number two is a nine volt,

John Shull 45:41

okay, the

Nick VinZant 45:41

nine volt powered every RC type remote control type thing that you had growing up as a kid, like if you saw nine volts in the Christmas stocking, you knew you were getting something like, oh, those were the ones you always had to touch to your tongue to the nine, yeah, give

John Shull 45:59

you a little shock, little springs, yeah, yep, God, that was terrible. And whoever thought of that was not the greatest person ever.

Nick VinZant 46:07

Like, could you imagine being the first person that's like, you know what, take this electrical device and touch it to your tongue, that'll be a good idea.

John Shull 46:16

No, that sounds terrible. Just shitty.

Nick VinZant 46:20

Isn't there a better way to do this? Nope. Only pain. The only way to know if the battery works is through pain.

John Shull 46:27

Only pain. What's

Nick VinZant 46:29

your number one?

John Shull 46:30

My number one has a car battery.

Nick VinZant 46:33

Oh, I mean, yeah, I feel like that's kind of cheating. Like, my number one is a double A. I think Double A is still better than a car battery.

John Shull 46:43

I mean, but car, you, you legitimately need a car battery for the car to work well. Yeah, even an EV, yeah, you literally need the car battery for the car to work, like regardless of what kind of combustion cycle you have.

Nick VinZant 46:59

Double A's run TV remotes,

John Shull 47:04

I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you on the importance of the double A battery, but car battery gets the nod for my number one.

Nick VinZant 47:12

I can get to where I need to go another way. I have no options other than the TV remote. The TV remote to me is more essential than a car. I

John Shull 47:25

mean, technically you can operate your TV via your phone now.

Nick VinZant 47:30

Oh, well, I can't. Of course,

John Shull 47:32

you can. You probably still have a TV.

Nick VinZant 47:35

Actually, I think I got it free. That somebody was in my neighborhood was giving away TVs. I never understood that they put it up on this buy nothing thing. They're like, we're moving, we've got two TVs. Who wants them? You never give away a TV.

John Shull 47:50

Yeah, yeah, because you know you can always find a use for a TV.

Nick VinZant 47:54

Can always find a use for a TV. Do you have anything in your honorable mention? Because, honestly, I can't even think of anything other, other types of batteries,

John Shull 48:01

uh, I wrote down a watch battery, but that was it.

Nick VinZant 48:05

Oh, yeah, that's probably good. I mean, I, yeah, I should have put a watch battery in there, but I'm not the kind of guy. Are you a watch guy?

John Shull 48:13

Uh, ish, yeah. You think my watch now? Look at this.

Nick VinZant 48:19

Oh man, yeah, it's some by all means, man, don't take any steps to protect yourself from the fucking sun.

John Shull 48:26

Maybe I am that red. Holy shit,

Nick VinZant 48:29

yeah. Oh yeah,

John Shull 48:31

I got a problem. You see the Kool-Aid man walking around Metro Detroit.

Nick VinZant 48:35

That's exactly what you, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get us a chance, give us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Really helps us out. And let us know what you think is the best kind of batteries. I, I mean, I know that a car battery is ultimately more important than double A batteries, but I also feel like double A batteries are more important, and I can't really explain.

The Universe's Oldest Stars with Astrophycisit Dr. Anna Frebel

They were born more than 13 billion years ago but ancient stars are still shaping our Universe today. And without them, we wouldn’t be here.

Astrophysicist Dr. Anna Frebel has discovered some of the Universe’s oldest stars. We talk how ancient stars created life as we know it, the chaotic conditions of the early Universe and what the next generation of stars will look like.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, it’s Just Do It and Where’s the Beef vs. Got Milk and I’m Loving It as we countdown the Top 5 Company Slogans.

00:00 Introducing Astrophysicist Dr. Anna Frebel

01:25 What Ancient Stars Tell Us About the Universe

03:37 How Ancient Stars Created the Universe as We Know It

06:43 The Odds All This Would Happen

07:56 First Generation Stars

10:00 Our Sun

12:16 10,000 Generations of Stars

15:41 The Best Star in the Universe

17:39 What Every Astrophysicist is Trying to Find

21:21 Pointless

42:47 The Top 5 Company Slogans

Contact the Show

Dr. Anna Frebel Website

Searching for the Oldest Stars

Dr. Anna Frebel TikTok

Interview with Stellar Archaeologist Dr. Anna Frebel

Dr. Anna Frebel 0:01

Nick, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick Vinzant. Coming up in this episode, ancient stars and company slogans. The sun has the combined elemental output of 1000 generations of stars in it today. I think so, because you know physics is really amazing. It just kind of works, and you can't - it's inevitable for things to happen. Probably almost all the elements were there from day two and a half, but only tiny, tiny amount. Then, with every stellar generation, a little bit more of all the elements got added.

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she studies something that, to me at least, is the foundation of the universe. Because without these stars, we wouldn't be here. This is astrophysicist Dr. Anna Freeble. What can we learn from ancient stars? What do they tell us?

Dr. Anna Frebel 1:27

Ancient stars are really fascinating in our Milky Way galaxy. We actually have 200 to 400 billion stars, that's that's a lot, but ever so often one of them actually is almost as old as the universe, so they have survived because they're really small, and really small guys live very long, and so we can, we can explore the early universe by looking at the chemical composition of these rare stars in the Milky Way today.

Nick VinZant 1:55

So, what would be the compost chemical composition of like the oldest stars versus newer stars?

Dr. Anna Frebel 2:01

Let's consider quickly what actually happened in the universe. It started with a big bang, and the universe was just made from hydrogen and helium. And then the very first stars turned on, and they were really big, which means they had actually a very short life. Massive stars party really hard to explode as a result of that fairly quickly, but the nice thing about that explosion is actually that in their course stars create heavier elements from nuclear fusion for gaining enough energy to shine, and all these newly created elements are dispersed in the explosion, so if you think that with every stellar generation that forms, you get a little bit more of all the elements over time.

Nick VinZant 2:49

I did not know that. I had always just assumed that all the elements were there from the beginning.

Dr. Anna Frebel 2:54

I know, but it's not the case. Well, actually, let's be, let's be detailed about that. Probably almost all the elements were there from day two and a half, but only a tiny, tiny amount. Then, with every stellar generation, a little bit more of all the elements got added to the universe. So that means that today's universe actually looks a little different than yesterday's. That means that the sun, which is a relatively young star, 4.6 billion years old, has a very, very different chemical composition than the guys that I'm looking for, which have almost nothing of the heavy elements in it.

Nick VinZant 3:37

So then, like, did these stars essentially create the universe as we know it today.

Dr. Anna Frebel 3:43

They have certainly, you know, created the what we call the chemical and driven, really, the chemical evolution of the universe, and that is this steady increase of the heavy elements with time, which ultimately led to the formation of biological life on the earth, because you know we are made from heavy elements, also hydrogen, but in the water, of course. The universe could not form planets very early on, because there wasn't enough carbon, enough iron, and enough nothing available, right. So it took quite a few billion years for the for the universe to for the stars collectively to to produce all this material.

Nick VinZant 4:29

How does the storm form the element? Like that's one of those things that you say that and I just like, oh, okay, but I have absolutely no idea how that could happen.

Dr. Anna Frebel 4:38

Yeah, so this is the the nuclear fusion that generates the energy, that's how stars make, make elements all the way up to iron. Any heavy elements, that's a whole different story. You can ask me about that too.

Nick VinZant 4:48

Yeah. Well, now I have to, right? Like, how do they make the really heavy ones? Then

Dr. Anna Frebel 4:52

I can't give you the full answer, because it is actually still not known how all the heavy elements are made, and in what exactly. What processes and where and how much, that's what keeps me in the job, in part, but the basic idea is really fascinating. So, in fusion, you throw things together and the final atom will weigh a little bit less than the constituents, and that little mass difference gets converted into energy, that's how the star gets the energy and shines after iron, that doesn't work, you would need to put, you know, basically gas into the tank to run this, but the star doesn't have any spare energy to give, so it needs to come up with a completely different process, and this is where it gets kind of curious, so you take your iron atom, let's say, and if you are in a violent situation where two neutron stars merge, which is a very crazy situation, really, then there are so many neutrons flowing around at such high density that they will basically bombard this poor iron atom with neutrons, and it will swell and become really big, but it's radioactive, so don't touch it. Once the neutron flux stops, it will decay, and then you will have created, let's say, a barium isotope, a barium atom, and although the other elements, which is the majority in the periodic table, is created this way through neutron capture in one way or another, and that's that's a really complicated process, and it requires extreme conditions in the universe, and so it's really hard to model and to figure that out, but it's also really cool stuff.

Nick VinZant 6:43

Is it surprising that all of this happened? Like, if you were to estimate, what are the chances that all of these things would happen that ultimately led to us? What would you kind of put that percentage at? Like, is it surprising that these happens? Like, no, this was going to happen eventually, don't worry about

Dr. Anna Frebel 7:00

it. Oh, that's a great question. I, yes, and no,

Nick VinZant 7:07

right? Like, eventually it would have, but we could be in 70 billion years from now,

Dr. Anna Frebel 7:13

I think. So, I think so, because you know, physics is really amazing. It just kind of works, and you can't, you, it's inevitable for things to happen,

Nick VinZant 7:25

kind of going back to the ancient stars, right? So the oldest one that you have been able to find is how

Dr. Anna Frebel 7:32

old we unfortunately can't really put an age number to it, even though we would like to, but I have found a whole bunch of what we plausibly call second generation stars, so stars that formed after the very first stars had had their fun, exploded, and then seeded that primordial gas with a sprinkle of these heavy elements. Is

Nick VinZant 7:56

there a chance those first generation stars are still out there?

Dr. Anna Frebel 8:00

Probably not, but again, never say never, especially in astronomy, where we're in the business of finding that that one odd thing in the cosmos, there is a lot of theory and a lot of physics that makes good sense, namely that you have to cool the gas to make a star, and some simulations have been run to figure out. Okay, how far could we push this? Maybe in the making of a big star, when it kind of starts to clump, there's a little something breaking off that could possibly become a small star and survive until today we haven't found one of those yet, but that would be the only way to make one. What it would look like, I don't know. We have ideas, but the universe was really crazy early on, and it's hard to predict.

Nick VinZant 9:00

Yeah, like, what would the early universe have been like? Like, when these stars were formed, would it have looked different than it would today?

Dr. Anna Frebel 9:09

Well, it was definitely hotter, and it was smaller, much, much smaller, and stuff was much closer by, right? So the first stars formed at the same time, sort of the first galaxy starting to form, and the galaxy in this case is just a bigger gas cloud that was also gravitationally contracting. They, there were sort of blobs that were a little bit more massive than the rest here and there, and much closer behind. One of the bigger blobs formed the Milky Way, and, of course, in other regions, whatever the biggest blob was, formed a different galaxy. The universe was actually pretty brutal back then. It still is, really, because the biggest one, the bigger one will eat the smaller ones, so.

Nick VinZant 10:00

If you found the second generation stars, for kind of my understanding and perspective, like what generation would our sun be? What generation would we be making now?

Dr. Anna Frebel 10:10

So the sun probably formed after something like 1000 generations, but again we have to consider, sort of, you know, in one spot,

Nick VinZant 10:22

yeah, it's a generation in each location, not a generation for

Dr. Anna Frebel 10:26

the right, because we have to ask the question, what contributed to the chemical enrichment, the element enrichment of the birth cloud that brought forward the sun.

Nick VinZant 10:36

I was really hoping you were going to say, like, seventh generation, and I wouldn't have this existential fear of the vastness of the universe, like, oh, it's 1000 generations,

Dr. Anna Frebel 10:46

much if you think about it, right? I could have said 10 billion, because I mean, there are certain more than 10 billion stars around, right?

Nick VinZant 10:55

Maybe it's the way that I think that, like, 1000 if there's no difference in my mind between 1000 and a billion, like that is such

John Shull 11:01

a

Nick VinZant 11:02

massive time scale of time that I can't even imagine it. Well, so if our son is the 1,000th, around the 1,000th one made today would be around the what,

Dr. Anna Frebel 11:13

10,000

Nick VinZant 11:17

This is where I just. I can't. it's not like no, somebody forgot to carry a one somewhere, like the universe is really like all this big and this old, that just I can't even understand, like I believe it, and all that, I just can't even comprehend it, I can't even comprehend

Dr. Anna Frebel 11:36

it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, let's, let's think about our own ancestors, right? I mean, I probably have 1000 generations in my ancestry. I mean, I haven't actually done that, but that would be fun to look into. And, of course, we have to, we have to remember every generation takes its time, right? We, we are born, and then we have children, and then we die, and then the next generation comes, and the same is true for stars, right? And that's why it's only 1000 over the course of about 9 billion years, right?

Nick VinZant 12:11

Yeah, that's what we are. It's

Dr. Anna Frebel 12:12

actually quite, quite reasonable

Nick VinZant 12:16

when you look at kind of the different generations of stars. Are there certain speaking like universally, right? Like, are there certain generations that kind of stand out in, like, oh, that's when that happened, that's when we think that that happened, like Generation 713 whoo, that was a big

Dr. Anna Frebel 12:36

one. Yeah, I don't really think so. I mean, the first generation, that was definitely special, right? Because the form from this different gas, just the hydrogen and the helium, we like the sun because that's our home star. Otherwise, it's really just kind of plugging along, plugging along, as I already mentioned, not all stars are the same, and certainly they, they're, you know, with every generation, there will be stars that are small and then bigger, more massive stars, right? There's always some variety within a given generation, and they will, they will go through life differently, faster, shorter, they will produce different elements and in different ways, so they certainly all leave a different mark behind, and mass is really the big indicator there, right? The very massive ones explode as supernova, the small ones, they don't produce much, and they eventually become white dwarfs, like the sun, which just means they're just going to be, you know, a really dense, they're sort of collapsing into just some hot core, and they're going to sit around in the universe forever,

Nick VinZant 13:52

but so if you need these kind of more, let me just use the word extreme, for lack of a better word, environments to create these things, wouldn't the big bang have been like the most extreme environment, so wouldn't why wouldn't they all be there right then, or were they all then? And then they were destroyed, and then we made that.

Dr. Anna Frebel 14:11

That's a, that's a great point. So, let's think about what happened during the big bang. The universe started basically with from this, and then it expanded really, really fast, and everything in it got basically stretched away from each other in neutron capture and generally nuclear synthesis. You need the opposite, you need stuff bombarding rather than, you know, taking away. This is what exactly why the universe stopped at helium in the big bang, because it got too cold, because the universe got expanded too much, and everything was flying away from each other, cooling down rather than being hot so fast, and you know, hitting each other, because you need to hit each other, you. You want to create something new.

Nick VinZant 15:02

Yeah, yeah, it does. It's like maybe it was there, but then when it expanded, it cooled it down enough that it was gone.

Dr. Anna Frebel 15:10

It was definitely, yeah, there weren't enough neutrons targeting just one proton, which is a very deliberate process in a way. It was definitely too diffuse. The neutrons were around, but they were too diffuse to really hit something to create a heavy element.

Nick VinZant 15:26

This is my thing with space, that like I love to think about space and find out about space for about five minutes, and then it just scares the shit out of me. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Anna Frebel 15:39

All right.

Nick VinZant 15:41

What is your favorite star?

Dr. Anna Frebel 15:44

Oh, yes, I have one. I have one. It's my baby star. It's the one that I discovered during my PhD. It's called He 30 and 27 minus 2326 Please repeat.

Nick VinZant 15:56

A good name, good name.

Dr. Anna Frebel 15:59

That, that is one second generation star. It was the first, it was a second second generation star ever found, and it was my big discovery. And actually, I was at the remote observing with my telescope in Chile on Monday night, and we observed it again. I like to say hi once a year. Take a spectrum of

Nick VinZant 16:24

it. How long would it take light from that star to reach us?

Dr. Anna Frebel 16:28

Yeah, so this guy is actually fairly close. Let me think. I think it's a few 1000 light years away. Only if you have a good small amateur telescope, you could, you could take a picture of it.

Nick VinZant 16:40

Is there anything about the Milky Way that we would have more of these than other places? Like, is there errors? Like, not really.

Dr. Anna Frebel 16:49

It's hard to say. I wish I had an answer. I can only speculate. I mean, the Milky Way seems to be a fairly ordinary galaxy. I mean, I know we like to be,

Nick VinZant 17:00

I know, right? Like, we are one place in a universe

John Shull 17:03

of

Dr. Anna Frebel 17:04

trillions of one is really boring star, and that's actually a really good thing, because we'd be sweating literally a lot more if there was even as much as a little blip in the sun, it would get a lot hotter here, and the galaxy is fairly ordinary, so I would say, yeah, unless a galaxy, for some reason, had a lot of gas early on and made a lot of stars, and hence made a lot of elements, you know, faster, so had a faster chemical evolution, probably all the same.

Nick VinZant 17:39

What's kind of the holy grail of this research, like, what is everybody trying to find?

Dr. Anna Frebel 17:44

Well, we, you asked the million dollar question, is there a surviving first star that, that would just be kind of cool. Now, I mean, we would, we would learn from that, that these stars exist, and I think that would be really nice. It would certainly confirm our general view of how the universe got started, but we can also live without it. The sun has the combined elemental output of 1000 generation of stars in it today, and so that that's the direct fingerprint of the first stars that we can never observe directly, because they died instantly. Pretty much the old star you asked me, the first question you asked me is right. What, what's interesting about ancient stars is that they, they give us the snapshot, the fingerprint of what came out of a supernova. We can probe what comes out of a supernova with these stars, that's cool, because we learn about element production, we learn about star stellar evolution, we learn about explosion, you know how the gas gets dispersed and mixed, it's the whole shebang.

Nick VinZant 18:56

What is your wildest theory about ancient stars, the one that, like, you would only bring up if you've had a couple with your astrophysicist buddies, and, like, hey guys, what about this?

Dr. Anna Frebel 19:09

I'll tell you about something crazy that that we don't understand. So, I mentioned uranium already, and we have thorium as well, so we can observe those really heavy elements all the way to thorium and uranium in some of the oldest stars, and they have altogether sort of the fingerprint of one particular process that probably is the one that happens in these merging neutron stars, and so we have, we think that in general we have a good idea. Do we understand the details? No. And here's, here's one interesting piece. Some of these stars have too much thorium in it compared to the other elements, and we're like, where's this thorium coming from? Now thorium is ray. Active has a half life of 14 billion years, which means half of it has decayed by now, if it was formed 14 billion years ago, which is roughly the age of the universe, right? So early on, so what we're observing right now isn't even the full amount, it was even more back then, and thorium, as far as we can tell, cannot be produced in isolation, because you can't tell the universe, make just that element, right? it, it either you have this neutral bombard, or when you have this neutron bombardment, it builds up all the elements in some kind of, you know, chain reaction, basically, and thorium and uranium at the very end of that, and so for many years now we're very puzzled by where's that extra radioactive thorium coming from. Some theorists actually need to come up with a crazy theory, not me as the observer. I just tell the theorists what to do to tell to explain to me how on earth, how in the universe that is possible.

Nick VinZant 21:06

I want to thank Anna so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have a link to her on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you overestimate or underestimate? Like, which one do you generally do?

John Shull 21:34

Probably an underestimator.

Nick VinZant 21:36

Oh, I'm an overestimator, but I do overestimate slightly on purpose, like if I think something's going to cost me $3,000 I'll tell myself it's going to cost me five, and then when it costs 3500 I'm like, oh, wow, who, that wasn't so bad. So I deliberately overestimate,

John Shull 21:56

I definitely underestimate any, anything that I ask of anybody, you know what I mean, like, I know if I ask somebody for anything, I don't, I don't think it's going to be more than I expect. It's always less, usually, but I can't remember the last time where I was like, "Man, thanks for going above and beyond. Maybe I'm not hiring the right people, I don't know. Oh,

Nick VinZant 22:17

I hired some people to do stuff around my house, and they did a fantastic job, and I was pretty happy with that, but I would say, if I would say, in general, I'm usually disappointed by the things people do for me in a professional capacity, like that's what you did.

John Shull 22:35

Do you really want me to old man rant right now about customer service?

Nick VinZant 22:39

Oh no, not really, because I'm sure that this is like, okay, give me 30 seconds of your old man rant on customer service.

John Shull 22:46

Well, I think the biggest thing for me is, how can you be a customer service representative if you have no idea nor care about the product that you are giving customer represents representation to? That's all

Nick VinZant 23:02

I completely agree that customer service is worse than it has ever been in my lifetime, but I also understand it and respect it in the sense that people who are doing those kind of jobs have been de-incentivized, like they're not getting anything out of it, they're not getting paid a lot of money, why should they care either? So, yeah, customer service is bad, but we've also kind of created the problem in the first place, so I both understand it, am annoyed by it, and respect

John Shull 23:31

it. That's a good other, other side of it, you know, in terms of, yeah, they're not getting anything, and it must be brutal to sit there. It's kind of like, how many robo calls a day, do you think you get,

Nick VinZant 23:43

oh, at least three to five, but I like to answer them. I love answering spam calls. I love answering spam calls,

John Shull 23:52

and what a terrible job that is to sit there and just cold call people, knowing every time they see a number that pops up as spam, they're going to hate you automatically.

Nick VinZant 24:05

Oh yeah, I feel bad for the people who have to do it, like I kind of.. I always kind of.. I love answering spam calls and giving them a hard time, and then I feel slightly bad afterwards, because, like, man, it's just some guy trying to do his job.

John Shull 24:22

I mean, I'm never rude, and I'm the same way, and actually, I'll admit this. I had to learn kind of like the etiquette of, you know, appreciation for jobs like that, and you know, like, but yeah, I'm 100% cordial now. I never hang up. I don't answer, usually, but if I ever do, I always get tricked by the numbers that look like a number that may not be spam, but then it is spam.

Nick VinZant 24:49

Yeah, I'm not that old. I still pretty can identify a spam call pretty easily.

John Shull 24:54

Also, why is that called

John Shull 24:55

spam

John Shull 24:56

spam when spam is spam? And if you know what spam is, you know what I'm talking about.

Nick VinZant 25:04

I don't even want to just discuss this with you, to be honest with you. Like, once you say a word so many times, like you said spam so many times in a row, I can't even, like, my brain starts to shut down,

John Shull 25:18

like

Nick VinZant 25:18

after the fifth time you said spam in a 10 second period, Mike. I just started to lose consciousness slightly.

John Shull 25:26

I did see your eyes, kind of. You were definitely zoning out there. For

John Shull 25:30

I started to

Nick VinZant 25:30

glaze over, I started to glaze over a little bit. I started to glaze

John Shull 25:34

early, too early for you to be drinking Spam, the mystery meat. Check it out,

Nick VinZant 25:40

I don't really have a problem with it. Tastes good, it's all right.

John Shull 25:43

I mean, comparatively to other things we eat, it's probably not that bad, really.

Nick VinZant 25:50

Tell me about your garden. You want to talk about your garden? Do you actually have you actually succeeded in growing anything? Are you just like, I'm going to plant a garden?

John Shull 26:00

I mean, we've had one the last few years. I mean, I'm not going to take sole credit for it, but I am. I do plant the stuff for the most part, and I make sure it's watered, and so, yeah, I guess I am doing it solely, so slowly this year. Yeah, things have grown. My thing with the garden is, unless it's a native plant or something that comes back every year, every, I mean, the prices are ridiculous to go out and buy, buy plants.

John Shull 26:32

Yeah, yeah,

Nick VinZant 26:38

I cannot pretend to care in any capacity. I cannot pretend to care about your garden in any capacity, because honestly, in my mind, it's a whole lot of work that produces an amount of food that you can't possibly consume in the amount of time that you have it. It's like, oh man, I've been working for 20 hours on my strawberry plants, and then they produce 1000s of strawberries. You can eat about 50 of them, and then the rest you've got to be like, "Oh, crap, what am I going to do with all these strawberries that really aren't as good as the ones that I could just get frozen for 499 for 12 pounds of it at Costco? It's just entirely like, if you want to garden for mental health or garden, because that's just what you like it, but don't garden as a way to, like, "Oh, I'm really saving money here, like, you really

John Shull 27:21

don't do it, you don't, you don't do it for a money, for like saving money, but I think the price, the shot in the beginning is, it's like, man, like, but it's 100% worth it. It's great to see things grow organically, you know. It's like, it's, it's awesome to see.

Nick VinZant 27:40

Yeah,

John Shull 27:41

I haven't attached a GoPro to one of my things to watch, like I'm going to put together a time lapse.

Nick VinZant 27:48

Please, someone steal that. Please, someone steal that. I hope that on the last day somebody steals that, like right before you pick them, you go inside, you get ready to check your GoPro, and then I hope someone steals

John Shull 28:04

it. I don't know why you're hating. I, it's gonna be fantastic.

Nick VinZant 28:08

Like, what are you gonna do with that? Like, what are you really gonna do with this GoPro video? You're gonna be like, "Whoa, look at this strawberry grow. And then

John Shull 28:17

that's it.

Nick VinZant 28:17

You're gonna watch it, they're gonna come back and watch it years later. You're gonna sit down and, like, hey kids, you want to see something Grandpa did this couple 40 years ago. Let's watch my GoPro time lapse. Sit down, gather round, and then everybody's got to do something nobody wants

John Shull 28:35

to do. Don't know why. I mean, it's.. I'll send you a picture of my garden, and you'll be.. I think you'll be impressed. Well, you won't be impressed, but

Nick VinZant 28:45

I won't. I'll be like, looks like he got some weeds in there, and those aren't really looking like they're going to be that great.

John Shull 28:51

Well, anyone out there that gardens knows they're on my side.

Nick VinZant 28:57

Please steal his GoPro, steal his GoPro 737 Evergreen Terrace.

John Shull 29:04

Are you done? Are you done making fun of my garden while as I'm creating sustainable life here?

Nick VinZant 29:11

Yeah, congratulations. I'm sure it's going to be a great two days when you get to eat all that. Like, you want peppers? We've got 50 of them, I had to.

John Shull 29:22

I do give some to my neighbors, just FYI.

Nick VinZant 29:25

They don't want

John Shull 29:27

them. That's not true. That's not.. I have a.. and I'm only saying this because it makes sense. I have a Venezuelan neighbor, elderly couple that lives behind me. In every August, when I give them bushels of vegetables, they're very thankful.

Nick VinZant 29:43

Well, I'm glad you did all that hard work for somebody else. That's very nice of you, but just don't pretend like you're gardening like honey. No, this garden is going to revolutionize our finances. Like, just don't pretend like it's something that it's not. Enjoy your hobby, enjoy giving some gifts to your little neighbors out. There, but like, let's not pretend that you're just turning into a grocery store over there, okay? That's what I'm saying.

John Shull 30:06

Are we? Are we fast? Could we move on to shout outs?

Nick VinZant 30:09

I've been waiting for 10 minutes.

John Shull 30:11

We are, we are taking up some time here. All right, let's hear. We'll start with Brooklyn Chin, Emmanuel Villanueva, Monroe Melendez, some of these names, when I read them back aloud, don't sound like real names. Everly Nelson, but Everly is E V R or E V E R L E I G H. You don't usually see Everly spelled like that.

Nick VinZant 30:36

I have a problem that when people start to spell things to me, I just like my brain shuts down, like I cannot follow along when someone tries to spell me something that I'm not familiar with. I'm just like, e v, let me try to resell e, okay? I'm e ever e v e r l i g h.

John Shull 30:58

Yes,

Nick VinZant 31:01

I don't understand why people spell things differently than they're supposed to be spelled, like you're spelling. I'm sorry, no offense to you, Everly, but spelling names differently doesn't make you special. And everybody, even if you're like, it's not Everly, it's Everly, nobody's gonna pronounce it that way, it's not Everly, it's Everly, because I spelled it with an I G H.

John Shull 31:25

Well,

Nick VinZant 31:26

I don't know if that's actually how that works, but

John Shull 31:28

well, we just lost one of our two listeners, so that's that's that. Let's just move on.

Nick VinZant 31:32

Sorry,

John Shull 31:34

I'm just glad that you adopt me for once. Hunter Chang Lyric Ballad, that can't be a real name,

John Shull 31:42

that's

Nick VinZant 31:43

probably not a real person, but it's a

John Shull 31:45

great thought.

John Shull 31:45

They were actually pretty active on YouTube with us this past couple of weeks,

Nick VinZant 31:51

right? So I'm talking about, I like their name,

John Shull 31:53

Lira. This

John Shull 31:54

one's my.. this one was my favorite, Julissa Murphy. I like a good Julissa because it sounds like Julie and Melissa combined.

Nick VinZant 32:02

Julissa, yeah. Well,

John Shull 32:06

Lila Page and Harper Casey.

Nick VinZant 32:11

Harper is an underrated name. A Harper is a girl that you marry.

John Shull 32:18

Would you say, and I know you just said that, Harper, but are there just some people when you meet them you're like they should be married just based on their names alone?

Nick VinZant 32:28

No, not on their names alone, but there's definitely like things that add up, like some people should be like, oh, that's a, that's a, that's a good catch. Somebody's gotta jump on it. My neighbor, for any women out there looking for a man, he makes good money, he's tall, seems like a successful guy. I saw him carrying his niece inside his house one day, seems like a nice guy. If anybody's looking for a man, 737 Evergreen Terrace, 737 Evergreen Terrace, hit me up. I'll introduce you to Dane.

John Shull 33:05

Oh, oh, Dane,

Nick VinZant 33:07

no, but he's a good one. He's not a Dane, like Dane can go, Dane can be Dane is the Harper of men. I don't know a lot of douches named Dane, Derek, yeah, but not, not Dane.

John Shull 33:23

Hopefully, your neighbor doesn't listen to this, because we just merged his name.

Nick VinZant 33:28

No, I think that's actually a compliment. Try and hook him up with some ladies, man, who's got a problem with that?

John Shull 33:34

I mean, if nobody, apparently,

Nick VinZant 33:38

can I call you Big Red, since you've been out in the sun and have clearly turned red, like, can I just start calling you back? No,

John Shull 33:44

it's so bad, man. It's so bad. I don't know what else to do.

Nick VinZant 33:47

Do you have you thought about sunscreen?

John Shull 33:50

I did put on sunscreen on Monday, FYI. You'd be.. you would have been proud of me.

Nick VinZant 33:56

You don't put on sunscreen every day when you go outside. It's 2026 man. God, dude, you just

John Shull 34:04

even had.. I've even had things removed from my body as well, but I'm not saying that, like, as a proud thing. I just.. I don't think

Nick VinZant 34:15

you don't believe that. You think your body is stronger than the sun. You're like, you know what? The sun overrated. I can. I'm tougher than that thing.

John Shull 34:23

Like I'm sure I'm trying to give an example. Like yesterday we had baseball practice, and then a softball game. I didn't put on sunscreen because I'm wearing a hat. Right, Monday we were at a splash pad. Of course, I'm gonna put on sunscreen.

Nick VinZant 34:45

Yeah, dude, just put it on every day. Just get in the habit of putting everybody should put on sunscreen every day. I'm 57 and I wear sunscreen every day. Look at me, 57

John Shull 34:56

You're translucent, that means it's working

Nick VinZant 34:59

right. It, yeah, dude, put on sunscreen every day. Don't be going outside like an idiot without sunscreen on.

John Shull 35:05

You know what this means, right? This means you truly like me because you care about me.

Nick VinZant 35:09

I'm getting upset because, like, all I see is like big red juicy fruit over there.

John Shull 35:15

I, I will have lights next week to where I don't look like big red juicy fruit, which, by the way, used to be my favorite kind of wriggly gum. And then I realized how actually unflavorful wriggly gum is after the first 30 seconds, and now I don't chew it. I haven't chewed it in a decade.

Nick VinZant 35:34

Oh yeah, juicy fruits really good for about the first 15 to 20, and then after that it's gone.

John Shull 35:39

Yeah, okay. all right. What I got, got one thing here for you, because I, it's kind of in your wheelhouse,

John Shull 35:48

okay? And I'm

John Shull 35:48

sure you're gonna butcher it, but I was having a conversation with a neighbor, actually, he's a gigantic Marvel Universe fan, apparently, and I was completely out of my realm, but I tried to piece along a conversation, and when I say he's a fan, he has a giant statue of Captain America, like in his basement, and he showed me a picture. This thing is six foot tall, all

Nick VinZant 36:20

right. He's, yeah, he's definitely a fan, that's, that's a little, that's, that's significantly beyond where I am,

John Shull 36:28

but so he asked me a question, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna pose the same question, you, because I thought about it after, I'm like, okay, that was a good, like, I don't really know him that well, but it was like a good conversation piece, which I had butchered, so anyway, so if you're building like the perfect superhero villain, you know, just all together, if you're building the perfect person from the Marvel universe, right? What is the most important quality? Where would you put, like, all your, your XP points or whatever into it? Would it be like, you know, muscle leadership skills, you know, stamina. What would be the number one most important thing to you?

Nick VinZant 37:10

If I.. this is where that I would do it first. You would do reality warping. You've got somebody like Frank and Richards, you've got the Molecule Man that are there. Those are some of the most powerful people in Marvel Universe. Then you have telepathy, right? You're talking about Professor X, you're talking about Nate Richard or Nathan Gray. Telepaths are generally very powerful, like if you're ranking them in terms of how you're going to look at this. So reality warpers, telepaths, and then you have somebody like the Hulk that's just raw peer strength, because strength is also going to translate into durability, because if you can, you know, lift a lot, you can move very quickly, and you're also pretty durable. So that's the way that I would go. Reality warping telepath, and then strength.

John Shull 37:50

Well, I butchered it, and the reason why he brought up Captain America was because he asked me that question, and because he was like, "Are you a fan? And I said, "Yeah, you know, I.. I've seen the movies, I know a little bit of the back stories, blah blah, and then he asked me that question, and just out of nowhere I looked over the left, and one of my neighbors says American flag, you know, hanging up or whatever, and I just go, Captain America, he's like the embodiment of of everything, I was like, oh my god, I sound like a complete dunce,

Nick VinZant 38:20

oh yeah, oh yeah, you're a noob, he probably thought to you, look at this noob, look at this big red juicy fruit over here coming in. Nah, I don't believe in sunscreen, but I do believe in Captain America, I like it. Yeah, that's the wrong answer, Captain America and Batman. If I can go on a quick rant here, like Captain America and Batman, if you put plot armor aside, would get the crap kicked out of them like instantly. Like Batman's just a normal guy going up against Superman, who's faster than the speed of light in circumcises. Like, he's not going to be like Superman's just going to destroy you and tear you apart. Batman doesn't win that. It's only like through plot armor that he does it, but we can really get into this. This I can get into much farther than you and your gardening, so we should probably just stop. But yeah, saying Captain America is like that's not he's laughing at you. I just

John Shull 39:12

froze. I just.. I froze, man. I don't know if you do that, but I try. I'm trying to be neighborly. I'm going to be hosting a neighbor, like, like I live in a cul-de-sac, so I'm gonna be doing like cul-de-sac barbecue, trying to be neighborly.

Nick VinZant 39:30

Oh yeah, I don't care about things like that.

John Shull 39:33

I know you don't.

Nick VinZant 39:34

I don't. I kind of just like

John Shull 39:37

I want to make a proclamation on this show, no matter how many years it takes, but there is a show that is taking over everything right now, called Off Campus.

Nick VinZant 39:50

I've never even heard of

John Shull 39:51

it. That's fair, because why would you? But open up your.. so, well, I guess you have to be in the algorithm. It doesn't matter, it. It's a series of romance novels. I think this year and next year are going to be the year of the romance novel adapted to TV. I say that watched off campus, I kind of liked it, but now it doesn't matter, because you don't even know what it is. So I'm talking to a mirror, so that's all I'll say about it.

Nick VinZant 40:21

Don't know anything about it. I don't regularly read romance novels, but if that's what you like to do in your spare time when you're not gardening, then go ahead. Like, this is not setting up for you well, like you're reading romance novels, you're gardening. Just go ahead and complete, like, if this is you, go ahead and do it. Live your life the way that you want to, but John just complete the transition

John Shull 40:45

candles. I got submarines, though, right? Submarines kind of hurt me a little bit.

Nick VinZant 40:50

No, yeah, a little bit, right? But you have gardening candles, and you're watching off campus. What have you decided what your female name would be, if you were a woman, what name would you want?

John Shull 41:05

False, that's tough. I want something sultry, like something excitable, like.. like every time I think of an excitable woman stuff, but it's like, you know, like Shakira or J Lo, you know, something like

Nick VinZant 41:23

you are not Shakira or J Lo material, man. Come on, Stacy.

John Shull 41:28

No, I'd be like I'd be like a Molly or a Helen.

Nick VinZant 41:32

I could actually see you as a Helen. You could use

John Shull 41:36

you look like a Helen.

Nick VinZant 41:39

You look like Helen. I would like to think that I could pull off Mia

John Shull 41:50

Man. People enjoy this podcast, because how the hell are we on this topic right now?

Nick VinZant 41:59

Just happens, man. You never thought about what you would be named if you were a woman.

John Shull 42:03

No,

Nick VinZant 42:04

to

John Shull 42:05

never. And what Helen

Nick VinZant 42:07

is perfect for you.

John Shull 42:08

I'm laughing. I'm not making fun or bringing any light to people that you know are going through these things.

Nick VinZant 42:15

Yeah, I've lived your life.

John Shull 42:16

I've never thought about changing my name ever, especially to, uh, to a woman's name, but

Nick VinZant 42:24

Doris, you could also be Doris, you would be like Barbara, you would be an old timey name, Helen, Barbara,

John Shull 42:35

man,

Nick VinZant 42:37

Dolores,

John Shull 42:38

I bet you,

Nick VinZant 42:40

God, you would be a Deborah.

John Shull 42:42

No, that's my mother-in-law's name. I'm not doing

Nick VinZant 42:44

it. Yeah, not doing it. Can't tell the difference, honestly. Looking at the two of you, I'm not even sure which one you are.

John Shull 42:50

You take that's friendship ending material right there.

Nick VinZant 42:55

That's

John Shull 42:56

don't you

John Shull 42:56

say that.

Nick VinZant 42:57

All right, let's just go. You ready for our top five?

John Shull 43:00

Yes.

Nick VinZant 43:02

So our top five is top five company slogans. I didn't realize how many of these I knew off the top of my head before I started looking them up, so my, my criteria wasn't just if it was good, but if it motivated me to do something, like it couldn't just be memorable. I had to be like inspired by it. So, what's your number five?

John Shull 43:25

Literally, I don't really have a criteria. I just went with ones that have always stuck in my mind, or that I've have had some kind of meaning on me. I do want to throw out, I'm going to start by saying an honorable mention, one, but I wanted to put this in my top five,

Nick VinZant 43:44

okay?

John Shull 43:45

But I couldn't, but it's Sega, and theirs is, or theirs was, the more you play with it, the harder it gets. So just figure I'd start with that.

Nick VinZant 43:57

They did

John Shull 43:58

not

Nick VinZant 43:59

really use that, but that's one of those ones that somebody's like, yeah, go ahead and do that, we'll pretend like it was some stupid mistake, but we knew exactly what we're doing

John Shull 44:08

here, yeah, attention grabbing for a couple of months, right, like

John Shull 44:14

sell

John Shull 44:14

some consoles, all right, my number five in, I'm just putting this one on the list because it needs to be on any slogan list, though I despise this company in this place, it's Disney, and it's happiest place on earth.

Nick VinZant 44:31

Yeah, I agree with you. I thought about putting it on my top five, but I ultimately just didn't, because I don't like Disney either. And one of my nightmares, like, if I was to wake up in hell, it would be Disney World in the summer, like that would be my hell.

John Shull 44:47

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's not the happiest place on earth, but for some reason we all go there like sheep.

Nick VinZant 44:57

Oh, I refuse to, I refuse to, they. Been several offers to take my children to Disney World, and I would have said no every time, like, nope, you have to wait till I'm dead, not going, not doing it.

John Shull 45:10

Take the urn with you, because I'm not going as a living, breathing human being.

Nick VinZant 45:14

God, I could see one of my sons is a way to spite me sprinkling my ashes at Disney World,

John Shull 45:19

if I'm still alive, I'm gonna make sure that happens now.

Nick VinZant 45:24

Sprinkle my ashes at Disney World. Oh God, that'd be.. I would be.. I would rise from the grave. I would ride.. I would reconstitute myself from the ashes to have my revenge. That's how upset I would be. Minor five is Taste the Rainbow. Anytime I hear Taste the rainbow, I do think, like, oh man, I could have some Skittles.

John Shull 45:45

Let's, it's not necessarily the slogan for me, it's how they used to portray it in the commercials, you know.

Nick VinZant 45:52

Yeah, I agree with that.

John Shull 45:53

Yeah, like nowadays that probably isn't. Is that still a slogan? Is it still Taste the Rainbow?

Nick VinZant 46:00

I would assume so. I don't know why you would change it when it's one of the best slogans of all time.

John Shull 46:05

It's just, I don't know if you can get away with that now. Just, you know, a whisper of taste. I don't know when I say that. And then my number four, it's not like this one is without controversy, but my number four is KFC is finger licking good.

Nick VinZant 46:22

My number four is, where's the beef?

John Shull 46:25

Oh, that's a good one. It

Nick VinZant 46:29

still makes me laugh a little bit. Where's the beef?

John Shull 46:33

Where's the beef? It's fantastic.

Nick VinZant 46:36

Where's the beef, Wendy's?

John Shull 46:38

That,

John Shull 46:40

that goes with Arby's to me, with you know, we have the meats. My number three is probably the most known slogan, at least of our generation, and that's Nike with just do

Nick VinZant 46:55

it. I have that as my number two.

John Shull 46:59

Okay, now,

Nick VinZant 47:01

yeah, I'm surprised I really had to justify not making it number

John Shull 47:11

one. My number one, I think, is is right, right fully there. My number two is kind of a personal pick, so that's why that's why I stuck it at three. I mean, obviously, you think of most brands in America, clothing shoe related. I mean, unless you really know the brands, which I'm sure you do, but like, what other clothing brand, shoe brand, can you just say the slogan of? There aren't too many that are still around.

Nick VinZant 47:39

No, I have no idea what, like Reebok or Adidas or New Balance or Hoka, or any other kind of clothing brand is. I have that's the most iconic clothing brand.

John Shull 47:52

Hold on, I gotta see what New Balances is. Just because, for some reason, I always think of New Balance, and it's the same shoe that women wear,

Nick VinZant 48:03

they only make one shoe, they only make one all white tennis shoe. New Balance slogan should be like "accept

John Shull 48:13

it. Their their slogan is "we got now"

Nick VinZant 48:21

should be like we got arthritis, that's what it should be. Are you gonna put Pure Michigan as your number two?

John Shull 48:33

Come on, why are you ruining it?

Nick VinZant 48:34

Because when you said Homer pick, I immediately thought of Pure Michigan as like he's gonna put Pure Michigan number two, like anybody wants to go to fucking Michigan. Who

John Shull 48:45

think that that slogan is? I mean, it's okay, but it's the parody account of it. If no one's ever seen it, if you're not from Michigan, look up like Pure Michigan, pure bullshit on YouTube, and it's hilarious. It's

Nick VinZant 49:04

Michigan. Is not a tourist destination. Nobody's like, you know, where I've always wanted to go - Michigan. I've always thought of going to Michigan.

John Shull 49:17

What's your number three?

Nick VinZant 49:18

Got milk?

John Shull 49:21

Okay,

Nick VinZant 49:21

huge. That was huge for a while.

John Shull 49:26

Yeah. Hey, I left it all. It's all my honorable mention, you know, the commercials in the what were they, the late 90s, early 2000s where you had all the celebrities with the mouth mustache, and it was a silhouetted background, and all that. Like that was cool, but yeah, I don't know, it's just kind of, it's like white milk to me, it's just kind of bland,

Nick VinZant 49:46

it's faded away a little bit, but it's memorable. What's your number two going to be? Then

John Shull 49:51

it's PlayStation, live in your world, play in ours.

Nick VinZant 49:58

The only reason I can't see that being. Number two is the thing that I remember only about the PlayStation is that little entrance music that they had, PlayStation. I would have thought that was actually their slogan, was just PlayStation, PlayStation.

John Shull 50:15

No, it's, I mean, I, it's an awesome, like, you know, one liner, and it, yeah, as we know, Sony and PlayStation kind of have defined the video game genre, other than Nintendo, but Nintendo is kind of a global thing to me. I don't think PlayStation is as global as Nintendo,

Nick VinZant 50:34

I think,

John Shull 50:36

but yeah, that's so that's it's a Homer pick, because I was a self-confessed gamer growing up, so that's why it's my number two, my number one now, right?

Nick VinZant 50:48

Yeah,

John Shull 50:50

let me make sure that I say it correctly, so it's Apple, and it's just think different.

Nick VinZant 50:59

Oh, interesting. I, I would have put just do it above that.

John Shull 51:09

I mean, both brands have done, I mean, yeah, they're self-explanatory, and what they are, but I feel like, in terms of cultural significance alone in terms of what Apple has done, especially for our generation. I mean, everyone, well, you don't have an Apple product, but maybe

Nick VinZant 51:31

are you not seeing this iPhone that has tape on the back of it? Right there, the dog got it a little bit, so don't say to me that I don't have an Apple product, when I'm sorry, here rocking an iPhone 6s E,

John Shull 51:46

my bad, my bad, I'm just saying, you know, it's I, it's like Nike, you can go one way or the other to me on either those slogans, but to me, I remember when Steve Jobs and all them, you know, they, they came out with the first iPod, and all that, like it, I don't know, I don't know how to explain it, but Apple is the number one for me, for sure. I think it's fantastic, it's so simple, but it's so deep at the same time.

Nick VinZant 52:12

Okay, I want you to look at my phone, which has tape on the back of it, holding it together. The dog got the top of it, you can see, it's kind of the dog got a little bit of it, and it's starting to peel apart. So, this is May 2026 How much longer do you think I can keep this?

John Shull 52:32

I

Nick VinZant 52:33

mean, you think I

John Shull 52:34

got probably two more years. I mean, the problem is, I don't, I don't think the physical, like, I don't think the physical body of the phone is ever going to give out, I think it's you're going to be left behind on software upgrades soon.

Nick VinZant 52:47

Oh yeah, I've already can't install any new apps or anything like that, like anytime I try to even update things, like I can't do it anymore, like this software is no longer available, it's only 10 years old, it still works great. My number one, and I went with this as a number one, because I think it captures this place, and it kind of inspires you. It makes you think about going. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. You start thinking about going to Vegas again, like when you hear that "just do it" doesn't inspire me to go buy new shoes.

John Shull 53:29

No, but I mean, I can't argue, I can't, I can't really say anything against that, especially because Vegas now is considered a major, you know, whatever, around the world, it's not just America, plus, yeah, how many people say it? Everyone says it, right? Like everyone that goes there says

Nick VinZant 53:53

it, that's why, when I started thinking about it, I was like, oh, that might be my number one, because I would have went and just do it. There's a lot in your honorable mention, I mean, what are some in your honorable mention?

John Shull 54:05

Let's see, I mean, we've mentioned a couple of them already. I don't think we've talked about Taco Bell, think outside the bun.

Nick VinZant 54:12

Oh, I thought it was runway to Border, which they kind of got rid of for understandable reasons.

John Shull 54:19

It's

John Shull 54:20

2026 Nick, where are you?

Nick VinZant 54:23

Can't have that one anymore.

John Shull 54:25

Also, you, you kind of have to know this. This company, but De Beers, a diamond is forever.

Nick VinZant 54:35

Kiss begins with K is another one you could think of.

John Shull 54:39

Red Bull gives you wings, e eat eat fresh at Subway if they're even still around, and then I put Walmart's Save Money Live Better, but

Nick VinZant 54:53

Walmart slogan. The only other ones I had in my honorable mention were Breakfast of Champions from Weed. These, but I also think it was better eat your Wheaties at one point too, and if I feel like this is iconic, only because if I know what the slogan is for a product that I have never used, never thought about using, never bought, never thought about buying, maybe it's Maybelline, like maybe she's born with it, maybe it's Maybelline, like when you know the slogan for something that you've never ever used, I think that's pretty big.

John Shull 55:26

Yeah, I mean I'm gonna add, I want to add two more now that I'm kind of going back through the list. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Nick VinZant 55:35

Yeah, it's pretty good.

John Shull 55:36

And America runs on Duncan.

Nick VinZant 55:39

Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it, really helps out the show. And let us know what you think are the best company slogans. To me, it can't just be a good, catchy saying, like Wheaties with Breakfast of Champions. It has to be something that motivates me to use that product.

The Psychology behind Soccer Hooligans with Soccer (Football) Violence Researcher Dr. Linus Peitz

Sociologist Dr. Linuz Peitz studies the psychology that drives Soccer (Football) Hooligans. He says the rising tide of soccer violence is all about one thing, territory.

In this episode of Profoundly Pointless we take an indepth look at Soccer (Football) Hooligans.

We talk the psychology behind hooliganism, the most dangerous Firms/Ultras, places that aren't safe to go and how Hooligans will impact the World Cup.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, we countdown the Top 5 Life Lessons We Learned the Hard Way

00:00 Introducing Soccer Violence Researcher Dr. Linus Petiz

01:11 What Drives Soccer (Football) Hooligans

04:08 Hooligans and Soccer Violence

07:33 Soccer (Football) Hooligans and Organized Crime

10:16 The Most Dangerous Soccer (Football) Firms / Ultras

11:14 Joining a Firm / Ultra

12:34 Where Soccer Violence is the Worst

13:25 Soccer Hooligans and the World Cup

14:41 Pointless

35:26 Top 5 Life Lessons We Learned the Hard Way

⁠Contact the Show

Interview with Soccer (Football) Violence Researcher Dr. Linus Peitz

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick Vinzant. Coming up in this episode, soccer hooligans and lessons we learned the hard way

Speaker 1 0:22

it can happen outside the stadiums before games, unrelated to games as well, like groups can meet and can become violent, so you have some of these, these football rivalries that go back hundreds of years, and they're often intertwined with political rivalries, religious rivalries, Serbia, that they have ultras groups who are known, have known ties to organized crime.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because with the World Cup fast approaching, he studies something that's incredibly relevant. This is soccer violence researcher Linus Pites. What is a soccer hooligan? A

Speaker 1 1:13

broad definition would be anyone who'd be involved in soccer-related violence or disorder, and it can involve like an organized component, so you can think of organized fan groups in Europe, often we refer to them as firms, ultras, but you find them all over the world.

Nick VinZant 1:31

I live in the United States, and as somebody who lives here, like this is something that is completely unfamiliar to me. Is this just kind of the equivalent of fans fighting in the stands at an American football game, like we see here, or is this something different?

Speaker 1 1:49

Organized fan groups against each other, quite violent, quite extensive. It can be with the police, you might see riot police in stadiums trying to separate groups, so it can be a lot more severe than just some random people getting drunk and fighting. It can happen outside the stadiums before games, unrelated to games as well, like groups can meet and can become violent. But, so, yeah, it's.. I think it.. you don't have that in the US, from my.. from my understanding.

Nick VinZant 2:19

Yeah, here it generally kind of tends to be people will get in a fight at a game, but it's usually because somebody was being a jerk, somebody spilled a beer on somebody else. It's not usually related to the game itself. Is hooliganism is that more confined to, like, no, this is related to the sporting event that is happening,

Speaker 1 2:42

it is more related to the game itself and to the meaning of game. It's often also related to territory, so you have some of these football rivalries that go back hundreds of years, and they're often intertwined with political rivalries, religious rivalries. So, if you think, for example, of in Scotland, the old firm between the two Glasgow teams, like one team stands Celtic versus Rangers, that's a, that's a representation also of a religious conflict. So there is much more than just about, it's much more than about just 90 minutes of football

Nick VinZant 3:17

here. When there's something that kind of breaks out before the game, or in the game, it's much more isolated to just a couple of people. Is hooliganism, I guess, is that more widespread, like it's not just Bob versus Tom, it's this group against this group.

Speaker 1 3:35

It has a, yeah, it has a strong group component. Obviously, no one wants to back down, so it's a football, is still like soccer in Europe, is still a very masculine environment in the stadiums as well, so as the sort of group notes that you have about aggression, risk taking, showing dominance, values of bravery, not backing down if the other group tries to intimidate you, you, you, and your fellow fans, you stand together, and if there's a fight happening, you, you don't run away.

Nick VinZant 4:08

When we talk about hooliganism slash soccer violence, like, what kind of acts are we generally talking

Nick VinZant 4:14

about?

Speaker 1 4:15

Can be pretty much anything on a spectrum, from deadly interactions, there have been stabbings. If you Google hooliganism and stabbings, you will find every year instances of fans traveling abroad and horrible things happening, sometimes deadly clashes, just fights, fist fights between fans, between fans and police stewards, throwing objects onto pictures using fireworks, yeah, which can lead to matches being abandoned, intimidation, hurling abuse, which can include racist abuse, which can also lead to matches being abandoned. So it's a very broad spectrum from. Physical violence, extreme physical violence, more into sort of disorder, and then intimidation and harm, or rule violations on the on the softer end of the spectrum.

Nick VinZant 5:11

I'm a big numbers person. If we were kind of gonna quantify this as like a problem, 10 is the highest, one is the lowest. Like, where does this kind of sit in terms of a problem you're at sporting events

Speaker 1 5:26

that depends very much on who you're going to ask, so if and where you're going to ask that question, so there is no global trend for this sort of problem. I think every country has its own, or every region has its own status in that sort of thing, so obviously the UK is famous for its hooliganism problem in the, in the 80s and 90s, and we've kind of gone past this a little bit, so it's much more controlled environments now, especially in the, in the top level leagues. Um, in other countries, there's less control, and it's much more common for things to escalate,

Nick VinZant 6:02

you know, the impression that I have, at least the United States, and completely from movies, right? Is it's this firm against this firm, and they're gonna both meet outside of the stadium and stand their ground, like, is that a real thing that happens, or is like, that's movies?

Speaker 1 6:18

Yes, I mean, it is, that can happen, and, but it's rare, I think, especially when you talk about violence that organizes police and the public care about. I mean, if two rival fan groups decide to meet up in the field outside of, I don't know, the day before the game, and beat the hell out of each other for, I don't know, an hour, then no one really cares, I think this actually exists, that people film themselves like meeting up and organizing these sort of battles before, but that's not really what most people, when they think about containing potential disorder and violence at games, what they think about, at least in most European countries that it can happen, so that it can happen that if there's a riot, two rival groups, and one has to come travel all the way to the other stadium, they have to take a certain route to the stadium with police protection, and the other fans are waiting for them near the stadium and are trying to agitate or trying to start something, something that this can can happen and happens, but then it's obviously up to the organizers to anticipate and not let it happen, isn't in the movies where it's basically a free for all and everyone just goes nuts. That's kind of exactly who you want to avoid.

Nick VinZant 7:33

For the people who are in the more organized segments of this, are they also generally involved in other kind of criminal behavior or they just, this guy's an accountant during the week, and on Saturdays he's out there fighting outside of the stadium.

Speaker 1 7:49

You will have both. You will have people who absolutely change when they go to football for them. This is an outlet of things they can't do during the during the day job, and who you would never think that they would be part of such a group like that, and then you have obviously people, yeah, there are elements in organized football groups that have been associated with either some criminal elements or extreme political ideologies, right-wing ideologies, I think there's some clubs in Germany that have issues with that, where fan groups are under observation from the state for knowingly, I don't know, showing Nazi salutes, stuff like that. You have the same issue in Italy, there's a lot of, like, there's their fan groups who are openly fascist, Serbia. There they have ultra groups who are known, have known ties to organized the crime, and yeah, you have the way you deal with that, then obviously becomes a lot more tricky, and how you assess the risk, how you can manage these sort of fan groups when they clash?

Nick VinZant 9:03

How did the kind of, how does the general public feel about this? Are they against it, or do they kind of secretly support it a little bit? Are they more just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe these guys are ruining this game? Are they kind of like, yeah, stick it to them?

Speaker 1 9:19

I mean, I don't think anyone likes violence. I think it's pretty much universally condoned by other fans. Having said that, up until the point where it gets violent, ultras and organized fan groups are also doing a lot for the atmosphere, so they are really important in the stadiums. They are organizing choreographies, which look amazing. They're organizing chants. They are generally responsible for a large proportion of the good atmosphere, which is something that sells as part of the product, right? Even the organizers need people to create a good atmosphere, so it's kind of a balancing. Act, you know, you want, you want there to be a prickly atmosphere in the stadium, that's, that's amazing, that feels good, that gets you to the edge, but you don't obviously don't want it to then turn violent.

Nick VinZant 10:12

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Speaker 1 10:15

Uh, yeah, sure.

Nick VinZant 10:16

Where would you say that, like, right now it's the worst?

Speaker 1 10:20

Anecdotally, you will see it in the news, and you will hear the stories of France has had in Europe. France has had issues since COVID started. They had multiple matches abandoned due to pitch invasions, bottles thrown at players, threats of intimidation, and that usually doesn't happen in top leagues. So, that was has been a big issue in France. There are countries that struggle, as I mentioned earlier, like Indonesia, has had issues over the last 20 years, really with football-related violence, stabbings, but then you can find it really everywhere, like if you, if you Google just in Europe, at least, hooligans and stabbings, or football fans and stabbings. You will find something very quickly from this year, from last year. Yeah, it's not one particular place. It's usually like intense rivalries, or yeah,

Nick VinZant 11:14

How does somebody get into a firm? Is this like a formal thing where you're accepted into it, or you just kind of go along with the crowd.

Speaker 1 11:22

I know people who are like members of organized fan groups. You kind of have to, like, some of them are organized like clubs, almost like fan clubs. So, there will be, I don't know, some sort of structure internally that's bit more formalized. For others, it will be more if you go to the stadium, there's a specific section where they stand, that is their section, and if you stand there, you have to either know someone or get to know someone to be allowed to stand there. So, kind of like encroach on their territory, and then have to kind of, yeah, you have to be accepted into the group.

Nick VinZant 11:54

What firms generally have the worst reputation?

Speaker 1 11:57

The Balkan states in Europe have some very fierce old trust groups, and they are linked. There's a lot of national identity, a lot of, a lot of direct connections to the civil wars. So, people who fought in the civil wars are represented in these sort of organized fan groups. So, these are people that are pretty tough, like it. That's not like someone who's pretending necessarily. So, if you have these sort of elements in certain groups, then you're probably a bit more wary about, yeah, interacting with maybe other fans.

Nick VinZant 12:38

Yeah, I mean, does it rise to the level in some places, where, like, oh, you better be careful going over there.

Speaker 1 12:44

Yeah, I mean, I was just before, before this, before this interview, I was just googling out of curiosity, and there was like a news report about some Chelsea fans going for a game to Napoli, so Naples in Italy, and just wandering the city before the match day, and they ran into a group of ultras, Napoli ultras, and they got chased and stabbed. So, you will like, there are towns and there are cities and there are clubs that have a very fierce reputation, and I'm pretty sure you can do your research beforehand and maybe avoid certain areas where you know that if that's their territory,

Nick VinZant 13:25

what can we expect at the World Cup? Is this something that goes along with the World Cup, or is that like, no, it's it's too tightly controlled there.

Speaker 1 13:32

I mean, it's tightly controlled, it's far away for most of the rest of the world, so it's quite a trip. It's very expensive this year as well, all aspects of it, like travel, is expensive, accommodation will be expensive, tickets are ridiculously expensive. So I think they have unintentionally, intentionally priced out large portions of fans in general. Yeah, I think the risk for the World Cup would be quite low, but you still have, like, I know the European Championships, couple years ago, like, when away fans travel, I don't know, couple of hours instead of 20 hours, where it's more realistic that larger groups meet, then you can still have that, but I think the World Cup in the US, similar to the World Cup in Qatar, there was, there were no incidents there to not really foresee major clashes there, but who knows.

Nick VinZant 14:25

I want to thank Linus so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. At what age did you first feel like an adult? Like, oh, I'm an adult now,

John Shull 14:55

23 probably. I think

Nick VinZant 14:59

you. Felt like an adult at 23 I don't feel I'd haven't felt like an adult until the last couple of years.

John Shull 15:06

I mean, from 23 on, I mean, I moved out of state. I, you know, I had already been paying all my own bills, like, you know, I don't know, I was living an independent life, like, I, you know, I don't know. I don't know what classifies this is a great question. What classifies somebody as being an adult? Is it their mental state? Is the fact that they can pay their bills? What's the most important part of that?

Nick VinZant 15:32

I think responsibility is what classifies you as an adult. I think that you do not really become an adult until you are also responsible for someone else in some capacity. Now I'm not talking about just having kids, I think that you can be responsible for people in other ways as well. But I think that's when I really started feeling like an adult, when I was responsible for someone besides myself.

John Shull 16:01

I'd still say 23 For me, I would say I know someone who just graduated from college at the ripe age of 26 and I think that person may not be an adult until 40, but we'll see.

Nick VinZant 16:16

Oh, are you taking shots at this person? I feel like that was a veiled shot at someone that you know, probably a relative,

John Shull 16:23

my brother. Sorry,

Nick VinZant 16:25

I figured, God, you're, you're that much younger than older than your brother.

John Shull 16:32

I am, I'm 13 years older than my brother.

Nick VinZant 16:35

Wow, does he look up to you, or does he want nothing to do with you? Does he look up at you as his wise brother, or is he like that's just my brother, John.

John Shull 16:45

Our relationship never hasn't materialized yet, but I mean, think of it like when I was going to college at 17, he was four years old.

Nick VinZant 16:55

Okay. Well, let's move on from that. So, you are definitely in the minority. 9% of people said 18 to 25 61% said 25 to 30, 13% said 30 to 35 and 17% said 35 plus. I agree with the 35 plus people. I didn't really feel like an adult till much later in life.

John Shull 17:20

I mean, I don't.. I'm not going to agree with that, but I guess it's just the.. it's the way people feel. I mean, it's pretty close. 30 to 40 seems to be the majority of the percentages there.

Nick VinZant 17:34

Well, no, 61% is 25 to 30.

John Shull 17:39

Oh, okay, I miss her. Okay, yeah. Well, no, I still.. I still think for most people, but see, then again, I don't like when do people leave the.. like, when do they actually get on their own now? Like, I don't.. I'm not only that being the only thing, but you know, I'm gonna.. I'm gonna.. I'm gonna be an old man and talk about the weather, and say, you know, what about all the generations where men and women became adults at 16 and 17, those days are long gone.

Nick VinZant 18:06

Yeah, but everything's just a product of their time. I mean, you had much less that you had to learn and be responsible for at those times too, right? Like you back then, if you had a high school education, that was like being a college kid now, so you just had much less stuff that you had to learn and be able to adapt to. Now you have to know so much more. Just takes you to need more training.

John Shull 18:29

Yeah, it's just.. it's just different. I would say it's probably been pushed back to 30 plus now. To be honest, you can go

Nick VinZant 18:34

that far.

John Shull 18:36

Art like my 23 is probably someone's 32 now.

Nick VinZant 18:42

I don't know if I could go quite that far, but I do think it's been much different. I would say my 23 is somebody else's 27

John Shull 18:50

I talked to my, I had an interesting conversation with old professor of mine, and I asked him a question, because he's a history professor,

Nick VinZant 19:00

and I

John Shull 19:00

said our teacher, whatever, and I said, you know, he said that he doesn't teach anything past, you know, like the Civil War, and I said, in 100 years, what do you think the history books are going to look like with everything that's happened just in the last five years, and he said, well, they're not going to have history books in 100 years, and I said

Nick VinZant 19:21

big times, yeah. I mean, they're not going to have history books in 100 years, because it's just going to be digital, so they probably won't be books,

Nick VinZant 19:28

but that's

Nick VinZant 19:28

like he's saying there's not going to be a history, he's just saying there's not going to be a book.

John Shull 19:33

I'm just.. that's.. I wanted to ask you that question, because I still think there will always be a place for physical media. I don't think digitally everything's gonna go like I don't, I don't think we'll ever live in a like 100% digital age where there is no physical anything.

Nick VinZant 19:53

I think books might be the only exception to that, because there is something about holding a book in your hand, but I don't think that there's going to be. Physical media, for like albums or movies, or things like that. I think that will go go by the wayside. I think books is the only thing that could survive like that.

John Shull 20:10

I disagree. I think I think there will be, you know, there's always a place for albums, and, and even video games, to a certain degree, even though a lot of the main, you know, a lot of the companies don't make a lot of physical digital or physical media anymore. Anyways, let's get to some shout outs.

Nick VinZant 20:26

Why are

Nick VinZant 20:26

you talking to your history professor? You emailed him, or you just ran into him? Did you email him this question?

John Shull 20:34

He know he reached out to me and wanted to have a conversation

Nick VinZant 20:39

about what

John Shull 20:39

about life and where I am in my, the future, and, and things, and we talked for a while, and just for the record, he said that I'm, I probably would make a pretty good instructor, just FYI. So,

Nick VinZant 20:53

okay, did you talk to him about submarines? Did you want to talk about submarines? Yeah, he did, didn't you? You talked to him? No submarines. He wanted to talk about submarines. You know, you guys could be the sub crew, could go to Subway, talk about subs,

John Shull 21:09

you know,

Nick VinZant 21:11

subs at Subway.

John Shull 21:13

I just want to give some shout outs. So, here we go. We'll start with Oscar Lewis, Sydney Patterson, Scott Osborne. I could see Nick. He has another joke. You just say it. What's your.. what's

Nick VinZant 21:25

waiting? I'm just waiting for you to finish up. I'm just waiting there.

John Shull 21:30

Okay, I don't even want to finish now, because I can. I can already

Nick VinZant 21:35

have.. I'm not gonna say anything. I'm not gonna say anything about your love of submarines, or that your history professor randomly just reached out to you. I don't really entirely believe that scenario. I think there's probably something else that is going on there, but we don't need to go into that.

John Shull 21:51

I mean, I went to a small university where I still keep in contact with a lot of people there. Why? Oh, I don't.

Nick VinZant 21:59

You do. I don't talk to a single person. I like, I couldn't name a single professor. Actually, no, I could name one professor that I had. I could name probably a couple, but that's it.

John Shull 22:09

You went to a university that had what, 30,000 kids, 40,000 kids,

Nick VinZant 22:15

probably around there. Yeah. How many people went to yours? Four or five,

John Shull 22:20

like maybe 2800

Nick VinZant 22:24

man, that's a small university. Were you?

John Shull 22:27

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 22:27

weren't you on like a team? Weren't you on some kind of team? Did you play football or baseball or something? Oh, well, I mean, pretty much everybody had to there at that size.

John Shull 22:36

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's yeah. Anyway, I played

Nick VinZant 22:40

in college. There was only eight other people there. God, I bet you tell people you played in college. Did you tell people you played college sports, and then forget the fact that there was only like 2000 people at the whole school? So it's essentially like you playing in college is somebody else playing in high school.

John Shull 22:56

No, that's but that's actually why I stopped playing, because I realized that it was more competition in high school than where I was, so

Nick VinZant 23:06

plus

John Shull 23:07

I was coming off of an injury. It doesn't matter. All right, Scott Osborne, Milton Chapman, Floyd Everett, Javier Duncan, Juliana Fraser, Gary Wiley, and Julie Tucker

Nick VinZant 23:22

Milton is a war, as a name that you do not hear very often. There's not a lot of Miltons. What? Okay, what are the chances that Milton is over 50 years old?

John Shull 23:38

Probably, probably not very good, because it was, uh, somebody on on our YouTube, uh, their handle was something, and their name was Milton, or Milton Chapman. So I'm gonna say probably not over 50 on that

Nick VinZant 23:53

one. Oh, I'm gonna go over 50. I don't know a lot of Milton's. Doesn't seem like a name that a lot of people are gonna have, sorry, Milton. Sorry about that, man. You're just over here catching strays for no reason. Guys, just pissed off. It's like, God dang

John Shull 24:08

it, Miles is legitimate. He's just legitimately trying to enjoy a show in here. He'll never listen again, which

Nick VinZant 24:16

probably not. Probably not. It's just water. I'm trying to stay hydrated. But do you think that every time that Milton introduces himself, somebody goes Milton, they repeat his name because they're a little bit surprised that it's Milton.

John Shull 24:31

No, I don't. I don't think I don't think Milton's a name where you know someone says it and you just go, oh, Milt, Milton,

Nick VinZant 24:39

Milty, Milto, what kind of nickname do you give me? Milton, Milton, Milto,

John Shull 24:47

you're really going

Nick VinZant 24:48

off Milton, Milty, Milty, what do the kids call Milton, the ton,

John Shull 24:58

what the. You got any Memorial Day weekend plans? You're going to take your family into the mountains and never return.

Nick VinZant 25:06

No, I don't. I don't like talking about my weekends. I don't like telling people what I'm going to do. I don't like telling people what I did do, like when everybody says, like, whenever you know you have, like, the work meeting, and everyone's like, "Let's talk about our weekends, and I'm always like, "I don't want to talk about my weekends, nothing. Whenever I don't care what happened to me, I could be inducted by aliens. If somebody said, "How's your weekend? I'd be like, "A pretty average. That is the only form of that is my least favorite, that is my least favorite form of small talk, is the weekend small talk. I don't want to talk about my weekend.

John Shull 25:49

You just heard what a it is like to have a conversation with Nick. That is, that is what it's like to have a conversation with you, right there.

Nick VinZant 25:57

I don't like to talk about weekends, want to talk about something. It's in the past, already did it. Who cares? Talk about the future, man. I don't look at where I've been, I only look at where I'm going. I'm sorry, you're living in the past over there, talking to your history professor, having email, deep conversations, talking about things that you did 20 years ago. It's over. Move on.

John Shull 26:17

Technically, I asked you if you had any plans for this weekend coming up, but it's

Nick VinZant 26:23

fine.

John Shull 26:24

It's all good.

Nick VinZant 26:25

Do you have some big plans? Like, I don't like.. I don't want to hear about people's plans, unless your plan is like I'm gonna climb Mount Everest and ski down. Like, you need to wow me. No, I'm just like, yeah, we're just gonna go to.. we're gonna go to a baseball game. Like, okay, cool. It needs to be something interesting. If you don't have something interesting to say about your weekend, then I don't want to hear about it. Somebody needs to have had some sort of life-changing event happen to them in order for me to care about their weekend.

John Shull 26:58

How mad do you get when it's like a Wednesday, and somebody's like, "Hey, how was your weekend?

Nick VinZant 27:05

Oh, you can't do that if you're asking me about my weekend on a Wednesday. We're fighting, I'm swinging.

Nick VinZant 27:13

Well,

Nick VinZant 27:13

how is your weekend? And my left hand starts coming up. That's how I feel. You cannot ask me. There is no reason to ask someone about their weekend past Monday at noon.

John Shull 27:25

I mean, yeah, if you're not moved on already by Monday at noon, I want to live your life

Nick VinZant 27:32

well. That's what I don't understand, is right? Like, why would I want to talk about my weekend and all the fun that I had and all the fun that I'm not having now? Like, that to me is more like, remember when you were enjoying life and now you're not. I don't want to talk about my weekend.

John Shull 27:50

All right, so if you ever work with Nick, just remember, ask him about his weekend before noon.

Nick VinZant 27:54

Don't ask me

Nick VinZant 27:55

about my weekend at all. I don't want to talk about my weekend.

John Shull 27:59

All right. Well, that went well. I don't have really.. I'm not sure what I'm doing yet.

Nick VinZant 28:06

You've really been phoning it in the last couple of weeks, like you're not really doing anything anymore, right? Is this a new strategy? Like, you're phoning it in, like you used to have some topics, some ideas, some games you wanted to play, and now you're just like, well,

John Shull 28:25

I mean, I was physical. I mean, we talked about aliens last week, that was fun.

Nick VinZant 28:30

Yeah,

John Shull 28:31

two weeks before that, I tried something, and you just beat it into the ground.

Nick VinZant 28:36

You, I gave you an opportunity to bring it back, and you didn't want to. Do you want to bring it back

John Shull 28:41

now? Would I? You didn't even give me a chance to get it

Nick VinZant 28:44

off. People deserve second chances. People deserve second chances. Okay, do you want to do it now?

John Shull 28:49

Do you believe that? I don't think you believe that.

Nick VinZant 28:51

Oh, I think people deserve second chances. I think people deserve a third chance, and then after that, you're done. Old Grandpappy VinZant used to say, try, try again, try one more time, and then quit. No reason to be a damn fool about

John Shull 29:09

it. Sounds like an amazing person. Pappy Vanzant,

Nick VinZant 29:13

he was actually Grand Pappy Vinzant.

John Shull 29:17

Let me

Nick VinZant 29:18

sell my dead

Nick VinZant 29:18

mother too. Now, want you to make fun of my dead mom.

John Shull 29:22

I would never insult your dead mother ever. That

Nick VinZant 29:28

would you want to just go to our top five? Then, since you phone it in,

John Shull 29:33

I mean, unless you want to talk about Taylor Swift's prenup that came out that her and Travis are gonna sign, because that marriage is gonna last, I'm sure.

Nick VinZant 29:44

Yeah, that's gonna be a really good prenup. I'd still don't think. Do you think it's a real relationship?

John Shull 29:52

Yeah, I mean, I think it's more her wanting it than probably him, and I'm sure most people out. They're like, you're an idiot, but if you look at her history, she, for whatever reason, has always yearned for a relationship. He, to my knowledge, the two that have been public, he was not a very faithful individual. So, you know, we'll see what happens, but yeah, I think it's, I do think it's a real relationship.

Nick VinZant 30:22

I think it's a real relationship, but both of them are actually in the relationship with themselves. I think that relationship, they say, are a mutual agreement that both of them are trying to get as much out of it as they possibly can. She's always been about relationships, because that's essentially, I don't want to talk about Taylor Swift with you. I'm not talking about Taylor Swift with another man. I'm just.. I'm not doing it. I'm not talking about Taylor Swift with anybody. Like, I'd rather talk about my weekend than Taylor Swift. I do not care. Like, good for her. Do what you want, as long as I don't have to hear about it. I don't want to have

John Shull 31:00

you asked me the question.

Nick VinZant 31:02

I regret,

John Shull 31:03

what about Snooki? Remember Snooki?

Nick VinZant 31:06

What's your doing? What's she doing?

John Shull 31:09

She was on a pod not too long ago, and

Nick VinZant 31:12

you say

Nick VinZant 31:13

pod, don't do that. Don't do that. Do not be the person that says guac instead of guacamole. Do not be the person that says doc instead of document. You have the time to go ahead and say the entire word and give it the respect that it needs. Don't try to abbreviate things like your captain cool

Nick VinZant 31:35

anyway.

Nick VinZant 31:35

What was Snooky? What was Snooky doing?

John Shull 31:37

She was on a podcast.

Nick VinZant 31:39

Thank you.

John Shull 31:40

And apparently said that Wendy Williams didn't believe her that she was pregnant, so before her show and during her show, when Wendy Williams had a show talk show, apparently she gave her alcohol to test her pregnancy to see if she was actually telling the truth, that's that's a pretty shitty thing to do, if you're Wendy

Nick VinZant 32:03

Williams. Yeah, when you look at, like, talk shows, they're actually kind of shitty to people. I don't.. that's why I don't write it. I don't.. I don't really.. yeah. Well, okay. Why do you know this? Why is this top of your mind about Snooki and Wendy Williams? Like, what are you doing that you're like, you know what is interesting to me.

John Shull 32:24

I mean,

Nick VinZant 32:25

Wendy,

John Shull 32:26

I like to, I like to try to brush up on things that people are talking about, and that was trending on three out of four of the major platforms. So,

Nick VinZant 32:36

oh, okay, well, cool.

John Shull 32:39

Leave me alone. All right.

Nick VinZant 32:42

I actually felt Wendy Williams. She's something happened to her, I think. Health issues,

John Shull 32:47

yeah. Her brain stopped or something, didn't it?

Nick VinZant 32:51

I mean, that's a big problem. That would be one of those things that, like, oh man, what happened to me? Oh, yeah, your brain stopped,

John Shull 33:03

and you know what, I want to.. I feel like I give you crap for being a terrible friend, but I want to say that you were a great friend Sunday night when the Detroit Pistons got absolutely destroyed in the NBA playoffs. You didn't even. you didn't even gaslight me, you didn't even, you probably, for one, didn't even know it was a game seven, and two, you just, you just stay quiet until I reached out to you. So, thank you, you're coming, you've come a long way.

Nick VinZant 33:33

No problem. I mean, I don't really think that I even need to point out that Detroit is going to lose. It's like, oh, Detroit's in a game seven, yeah, they lost that. There's no need for me to make the jokes. I don't need to make a joke when the whole team is a joke. I don't need to make a joke when the whole city sports relationship is one big joke. I think that they're just regularly messing with you. I think that all of the general managers and players and owners of all the Detroit teams are secretly just screwing with the fans, like, wait a minute, why do we need to be good? These people just keep showing up, let's just not spend money, make a whole lot more, they'll just keep coming. We don't need to be good, it's way better for us to be making millions by sucking, that's their real plan, and you guys are falling for

Nick VinZant 34:22

that

John Shull 34:23

isn't that sports in general, for the most part.

Nick VinZant 34:26

I did see something one day, though, that somebody said that really there's only 10 NFL teams that are actually trying to win the Super Bowl. The rest of them are just trying to make money, like not every team. I do think that that's an interesting thing, in the sense that just because there's a sports team doesn't really mean that they're trying to win, they might just be trying to make a whole lot of money.

John Shull 34:49

I mean, look at the look at English football, look at soccer, like in England you basically have seven teams that can win, everyone else is literally just trying to fight to stay in. Top, you know, the top tier for money purposes, like same in America, like, yeah, the Seahawks, they're never, they're probably not going to be competitive this year, you know what I mean, like it's fine,

Nick VinZant 35:11

Super

Nick VinZant 35:12

Bowl championships, the defending Super Bowl champions,

Nick VinZant 35:16

yeah,

Nick VinZant 35:16

they're sure when you're more competitive in the Lions, I don't get into this, let's just go to our top five. I'm not arguing with you about sports, and you know nothing about it, cuz you're not a champion. Don't know what it takes to be a winner. So, our top five is top five lessons we learned the hard way. I hope your number one is don't be a Detroit sports fan, that should be the number one lesson on yours. But what's your number five?

John Shull 35:38

My number five is make sure you keep some kind of emergency kit in your car at all times.

Nick VinZant 35:46

Oh, you've needed an emergency kit in your car.

John Shull 35:50

I mean, I'd say, like, as recent as two years ago, when I got a pretty severe flat tire, and you know, Bumpkin, Michigan, and you know there wasn't.. it was late at night, the tow truck was gonna get there, you know, an hour or two after that, like I shredded the tire, I had water, I had flashlight out, so the car was still okay, but like I had everything I needed in case, you know, I'd buy the blanket in case the power went out, blah blah blah, like you know, my wife, when we first met in Orlando, my car died, and it was 100 and something degrees, right? And the guy, as he gets my car back up and running, he's like, 'Your car's gonna die in five minutes, like you need water, like blah blah blah, you're on the highway, it's gonna take you 20 minutes to walk to the gas station. I said, 'No, I don't need water, I'm fine. Well, guess what? My car died, I got fucking hot, I got over, I got dehydrated, and had to go to the emergency room. So always keep a kit in your car, just in case, even if it sounds stupid, it's, it'll help for a plethora of emergencies,

Nick VinZant 37:02

you had to go to the emergency room for dehydration.

John Shull 37:06

Let's say it was more my wife forcing me to go, but you know, I remember like dry heaving because I didn't eat, and it was just.. it was just bad, like,

Nick VinZant 37:16

oh, you had a medical condition, you had some medical stuff going on there, huh?

John Shull 37:21

Yeah, yeah, but like, I also think some of it was just me being super pissed off as well, and like cursing the guy, because I'm, you know,

Nick VinZant 37:28

why are you

John Shull 37:29

mad with

Nick VinZant 37:29

him? He's trying to help you out. Oh, you're that guy. It's not his fault that you ran out of your car as a piece of shit.

John Shull 37:39

It's not he, he tried like he tried, basically giving me the keys to success, and I should have just listened to him. Instead, I was trying to be mr. Machine, you know, machismo, and though my, my car, yeah, and he was fucking right, and yeah, I still remember his name, Igor. So, thank you.

Nick VinZant 38:02

His name was he Russian?

John Shull 38:05

It was no, he was Bella. Well, yeah, okay, he was Bella. He was from Belarus. He was Belarusian, but very nice guy. Yeah, yeah, very

Nick VinZant 38:15

nice guy

Nick VinZant 38:15

too. Alan, he's trying to help you out. Wow, hope you learned. There seems like there should have been a lot of lessons that were learned on that day. Number one, carry water. Number two, don't be mean to people who are just trying to help you out. Number three, swallow your pride. You don't have to act like a tough guy. And number four, be prepared. So, it seems like there should have been a lot of lessons that were learned that day. I'm sure there was only one. You got one out of four. That's 25% That's not so bad. My number five is turn the power off before you unplug an appliance. I have never screamed at the top of my lungs before, but when I unplugged a dryer without turning the power off, I screamed, screamed in pain, pain mixed with confusion, mixed with, like, oh God, what have I done? I thought I was dead. I thought I was a dead man

John Shull 39:12

that gave you quite a shock, didn't

Nick VinZant 39:15

it? Oh man, I learned that lesson. Unplug an appliance, right? Turn the power off before you unplug an appliance. You gotta turn the power off before you unplug an appliance. That hurt.

Nick VinZant 39:33

Yeah, I can

Nick VinZant 39:33

still feel it.

John Shull 39:36

Yeah. All right. My number four is never assume an animal on a leash is friendly.

Nick VinZant 39:46

Yeah, yeah, especially when they lunge at you.

John Shull 39:52

That one's pretty self-explanatory. I have gotten bit, yes, but the time that I've gotten bit. Or got bit, it wasn't necessarily like I wasn't really trying to pet the dog, I was just, I didn't give the dog and its owner enough space on the sidewalk, and the dog, like, nicked my, my poor calf, the little dog, but I have gone up, like, with my daughters, where you know, you know how kids are, they want to pet animals, and or whatever, and you walk up, and you know they're not always friendly, like it just, yeah. So never assume, never assume that a dog wants to be pet.

Nick VinZant 40:30

My number four is, don't wait till the tank is on E to fill up, or you might find yourself walking 20 miles on a highway in Texas. I mean, I didn't have to go to the emergency rooms, I got dehydration, I just took it like a man, but still there's a long walk.

John Shull 40:50

Do you think I hear? I hear that a lot, like I'm even that way now, where you know I do keep the emergency kit in my car, but it's like if I break down, I'm probably going to be able to get help or warm or something like in 10 minutes, but I forget that most of America don't live in large cities, so if they break down in Texas and they have to walk 20 miles, like that's a real bad day.

Nick VinZant 41:18

That's it, was a bad day, that was a bad day. I did not make that mistake again. When are you generally going to start looking to fill up your gas tank? Like, at what level are you start thinking I need to get gas?

John Shull 41:33

I mean, probably around a quarter. Right now, with gas being as high as it is, we usually do it at around half a tank, just because you know 3040, 50 bucks feels better than 8090, or 100 but I'd say in a normal, if we were in normal times, at normal prices, a quarter,

Nick VinZant 41:57

I don't go past half a tank, because I live in Seattle, where the world's biggest earthquake is supposed to hit, and I don't ever want to be low on gas, so I don't let it go past half a tank, right at half a tank. I'm filling up. I may even go halfway in between half and three quarters, like I should probably get some gas here. I try to be prepared, John.

John Shull 42:19

I can, Is that a fact that the world's largest earthquake is supposed to hit Seattle metro?

Nick VinZant 42:25

Yeah, Seattle metro is basically due for the largest natural disaster in history at some point, like a magnitude nine earthquake. It's going to hit right under the city. It's going to be a huge disaster called the Cascadia Subduction Zone. If you live in the Pacific Northwest, don't look it up. It's going to be a huge problem. It's going to happen anytime.

John Shull 42:44

Oh, sounds like we should talk about that for an entire episode. All right, my number, my number three is pretty simple. Just always walk in a crosswalk, you know, always pay attention to the, the, you know, the lights, the traffic signals, they're there for a reason. For a long time, I was that, I'll say, douche bag, who, you know, I didn't care if it was a red hand, I'd still walk, I'd walk with traffic, you know, like, or if I was running, and then, and then I got nicked by a car, and realized that people don't give a shit, so here we are.

Nick VinZant 43:28

Oh, yeah, I understand. This is my thing with cyclists and pedestrians, is that you may have the right of way, but don't forget that I have a two ton vehicle traveling down the road at 20 plus miles an hour, like you may be technically right, but you're going to be saying that to yourself from the hospital bed, so watch out.

John Shull 43:47

Yeah, you're not wrong, you're, you're not wrong. That's that's why that's my number three lesson I learned the hard way.

Nick VinZant 43:55

My number three is you should do maintenance. I can't tell you how many times I've learned the hard way the importance of nation maintenance, and I think I've finally figured it out. Like, oh, you should do maintenance on things

John Shull 44:10

like cars, house things, just everything in general,

Nick VinZant 44:14

everything, everything yourself, maintenance, yeah, yourself, everything, relationships, friendships. friendships, cars, houses, dogs, cats, kittens, they all need maintenance. Everything needs maintenance, and you should do it. It'll save you a lot more in the long run.

John Shull 44:37

All right. My number two is you're never as young as you think you are,

Nick VinZant 44:44

and now,

Nick VinZant 44:45

yeah, yeah, I can see that for you. I disagree with that. I think you're actually younger than you think you are.

John Shull 44:52

Now, that's that applies, can apply to anything in life, but just remember, if you're 40, you're not. Not 25 anymore. If you're 35 you're not 23 anymore, like you're older. So, maybe, maybe act like

Nick VinZant 45:09

it. Yeah, I mean, you have to remember how old you are. I don't really have anything else to add to that. What is.. what are we on? Is that your number two?

Nick VinZant 45:19

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 45:20

my number two is, you get what you pay for. I used to always try to go cheap and cut corners, and I finally realized that at the end you're gonna get what you pay for. You always get what you pay for in pretty much everything, whether that's an actual product or like where you live or anything like that, you get what you pay for.

John Shull 45:42

Yeah, that's the I have that on my honorable mention. Actually, is yeah, because the dollar 99 jam looks so much more economical than the $4 $99 jam, but the $4.99 cent jam is probably the one you want, and will probably be better in the long run, you know.

Nick VinZant 46:04

Just for my personal interest, when you say jam, do you mean jelly, or do you specifically mean jam? Do you actually know the difference between jam and jelly?

John Shull 46:16

Jam has preservatives in it.

Nick VinZant 46:19

I think jelly does too. I have no idea what the difference between jam and jelly

John Shull 46:26

is. Well, let's learn. It is pointless.

Nick VinZant 46:29

You want to look it up? Did you already do your number one? Did I do my number two?

John Shull 46:32

No, you just did your number two.

Nick VinZant 46:35

It's really cold. I'm having trouble thinking. My body is shivering. Dress for the wedge

John Shull 46:41

jelly is made exclusively from strained fruit juice. Jam is made with crushed or pureed fruit, giving it a thicker, chunkier texture with bits and seeds. So, yes, jam does not have seeds or anything like that in it,

Nick VinZant 47:01

so are you a jam guy or a jelly guy?

John Shull 47:04

Oh, yeah, I'm a jam guy. I don't, I don't mess around with that jelly crap.

Nick VinZant 47:08

No, wait, I thought jelly was the one that doesn't have like the seeds and stuff.

John Shull 47:13

Yeah, it doesn't, but I don't, I don't want that. Give me the seeds, give me the jam, is so much better.

Nick VinZant 47:20

No, I'm a jelly man. Give me the jelly. I don't want.. I don't want anything to do with jam. It's your favorite kind of jam. What flavor? Say something stupid like

Nick VinZant 47:35

strawberry. I

John Shull 47:36

was gonna go.. I was gonna go with something like Zotic, but it's you, so I will just stay with I like, like a good grape, like a, like a good grape jam.

Nick VinZant 47:46

Wow, those are good, boring. Wow, they're rebel. What else do you do? Crazy on the weekends, sometimes you sleep in till what, 815 Wow, oh, blueberry.

John Shull 48:01

Oh boy, that's so much more.

Nick VinZant 48:03

It's way

Nick VinZant 48:04

more exotic than grape. Grapes are blueberries, way more exotic jelly than grape is. Come on, it's hard to get blueberry jelly. You got to look around for that. It's not just the kind of thing that's just available at any supermarket. You've got to go to, like, a specialty store.

John Shull 48:20

Oh, well, that's why number one, my number one is make sure you eat and hydrate on a night out.

Nick VinZant 48:35

Yeah, it's amazing how long it takes you to learn the lesson that you should drink water before you go drinking,

John Shull 48:43

or like during, even, or maybe chug a glass before you go to bed, but I found myself that eating is actually more important to me, like because I'll down, you know, five to 10 drinks in a couple hours, and I'll be that idiot that's like I just wanted to hit me, like you know. Well, then it hits you, and yeah, and you have nothing in your stomach, and you feel like absolute dog shit for two days after. So, oh

Nick VinZant 49:12

man, I've never had a hangover last more than one day. I've had him go till like eight 830 at night before, but I've never had it go into the next day.

John Shull 49:24

I, my, my bachelor party, I think I was still drunk that Sunday when I came home and was hungover till midweek.

Nick VinZant 49:32

Oh

John Shull 49:34

yeah, I just couldn't kick it, couldn't kick it,

Nick VinZant 49:38

man. Jeez, what a sad, sad state of affairs. My number one is, listen to people who are older than you.

Nick VinZant 49:45

The older I get,

John Shull 49:47

emotional,

Nick VinZant 49:48

the older I get, the more I realize that your parents were right, and that older people actually do have some advice. You don't think it applies because it's a different time. Then you realize as you get older that, like, oh, dang it, my parents and grandpa, grandpa were right, and you don't realize it till you're older, and you're like, ah, I wish I would have listened to him, it's too late.

John Shull 50:16

Well, that makes one of

Nick VinZant 50:19

us. Oh, okay. All right, you have anything in your honorable mention?

John Shull 50:22

Nothing that we haven't discussed already, pretty much.

Nick VinZant 50:25

I got nothing in mind either. Well, let's just stop it. Then you can go get some jelly, email your history professor, talk about your fucking submarines. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Really helps out the show. Let us know, what are some lessons that you learned the hard way? I'm telling you, if you're going to unplug a major appliance, turn the power off. I can still feel that, like I can still feel the electricity going through my body.

Secrets of Sorority Rush with Sorority Rush Consultant Trisha Addicks

What does it take to get into the United States’ best sororities. And why would you want to. As the world’s first Rush Consultant, Trisha Addicks literally wrote the book on getting into sororities.

We talk the secret to sorority rush, why sororities are exploding in popularity, the influence of “Rush Tok” and her new book “The Rush Bible”.

Then, its the roar of the crowd vs. the crack of the bat as we countdown the Top 5 Sports Sounds.

00:00 Introducing Rush Consultant Trisha Addicks

01:28 Why Do Women Join Sororities

02:18 What Top Sororities are Looking For

04:11 When Women Don’t Get In

06:13 Preparing for Sorority Rush

09:04 Three Big Things Sororities are Looking For

10:06 Dealing with Parents

15:23 How Rush is Different Now

16:30 The Influence of Rush Tok

19:18 The Secret Score

21:34 Fraternity Rush Consultant

23:45 Being a Legacy

26:38 Pointless

44:41 The Top 5 Sports Sounds

Contact the Show

The Rush Bible

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Interview with Sorority Rush Consultant Trisha Addicks

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick,

Nick VinZant 0:11

welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, sorority, Rush and sport sounds,

Trisha Addicks 0:21

finding your people is everything, everything grades personality and charisma. It is not it is not about looks. That's what it's all about. It's all about helping these young women understand how to get what they want and how to understand themselves and how to communicate

Nick VinZant 0:42

that

Nick VinZant 0:42

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she is an expert in something that has become a quintessential part of going to college, and is also just fascinating, because it's one of those things that people have conceptions and opinions about how it works, and then there might be how it really works. This is rush consultant and author of the new book, The rush Bible, Trisha addicts. What's the appeal of sororities like why do people want to join them?

Trisha Addicks 1:28

Sense of community, sense of belonging, connecting.

Nick VinZant 1:32

It's not just to join the cool club.

Trisha Addicks 1:34

I personally do not, which is why I'm here. Do not think it's joining the cool club. I feel like everyone needs to find their people, whether that's through a sorority or whether it's through theater, or whether it's through the Equestrian Club, whatever finding your people is everything, everything.

Nick VinZant 1:50

How hard is it to get into one

Trisha Addicks 1:53

the resumes that I see come across my desk now are insane. I mean, I went to Georgia with a 2.6 GPA like, no. Now you can't get into these schools. I'm using Georgia as an example, with less than a four Oh, so how do you set yourself apart in rush and beyond? So you have to intentionally prepare for the process, just like you intentionally prepared to apply to college or do anything. It's just everything's ramped up. Now.

Nick VinZant 2:18

What are sororities like looking for

Trisha Addicks 2:21

they are looking for well rounded, dynamic, interesting, kind, genuine people.

Nick VinZant 2:29

What would you say to people, though, who hear that answer and go, bullshit?

Trisha Addicks 2:33

Well, I do have a lot of people who say bullshit to me about it, and I would say to them, do your homework. You You don't know what you're talking about. And there are a lot of people out there who immediately judge one, what I do, what sororities do, sorority girls, without actually researching. And that's you know, feel free to judge if you've done your research, but if you haven't done your research, then you need to shut up.

Nick VinZant 2:58

So as a rush consultant, you help people with the rush process. Why did you start doing this?

Trisha Addicks 3:05

So I went through sorority rush my freshman year at Georgia. Did not get into sorority, so that was crushing to me, and it was really, really hard to connect, because that's how I wanted to connect. I wanted to be a part of Greek life. My roommate very, very sweet girl. I'm still friends with her. She just hosted a book launch party last week for me. She did get a sorority, and she was great to me, but she was always busy. She always had places to go, people to see all that. So I went back through rush my sophomore year and pledged my top choice. But those feelings stayed with me forever. So that is what I'm trying to accomplish with my business and my life's work, is to help people navigate this system so they don't go through that and it's trauma to leave home, go to college for the first time, all the transitions, and then be rejected right off the bat stuff?

Nick VinZant 4:02

Yeah, I can understand that you're out on your own for the first time, you're trying to join this group that you want to be a part of, and you get told no,

Nick VinZant 4:10

right?

Nick VinZant 4:11

How do some women react from that?

Trisha Addicks 4:14

Many of them transfer schools. Many of them go home. I mean, there's nobody that gets through and unscathed, unscathed and unscathed, excuse me, in that situation and the reactions are different, but they're almost always more than you would have expected before, and the parents are also often blindsided.

Nick VinZant 4:35

Do you then have young women who will come to you just in a state of mental distress about this.

Trisha Addicks 4:41

Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of mental distress. Lot of parental, parental mental distress. There's a lot. We get a fair number of clients, I'd say maybe 40% after the fact, when they are like, Wait, I thought I was just gonna show up, go through rush, and it was gonna work. Work out and they get blindsided. So they're either transferring or they're going to go through again, or they're going to go through what's called continuous open bidding, which is a whole nother podcast episode. But there's a strategy after the fact, if you don't get in,

Nick VinZant 5:14

do you think it's too competitive, right? Do you think Has this gotten to the point where this is too much for these young women, or is it? No, this is the real world, and you got to get ready for it.

Trisha Addicks 5:26

I feel like there is so much pressure on these kids today, regardless of yes, it's, I think it's a lot, it's, but it is a finite amount of time, and assuming that you end with a result that you can live with, then that's okay. But I feel like everything is so ramped up for these kids. And I mean, the things that they are doing to get into college are just insane to me. I mean, great, but like, insane, like, I mean, I was like, ripping six behind the the the gym in high school. You know, there's so much better than better and more involved in more philanthropic and all these things. So it's really hard to set yourself apart in anything, including rush.

Nick VinZant 6:13

So let's kind of jump into the the mindset of somebody who's preparing for this. So we're recording this in May. What should people be doing now to get ready for rush

Trisha Addicks 6:23

so in May they most likely haven't got and we're talking freshmen going to freshmen. It's a whole different ball game for sophomores. Sophomores should be connecting while still on campus before they leave. But May, as a high school senior, you want to be organizing your recommendations and or reaching out to people who are going to your school and who are already there. And so you're trying to make connections. It's all about connecting with people. So that's all you do. During May you enjoy your senior spring. Have all the graduation parties, fun, fun, fun. And then you start in June, getting your recommendation sent to the houses. And there are, there are all different kinds of rules now which and those change every year. So that's part of our research, getting your recommendation sent, continuing to connect, working on your style wardrobe, and then practicing conversating conversations and listening and learning, getting those soft skills, which are so lacking so in a lot of people so they should be going to their local Starbucks and chatting it up with the barista, they should be reaching out in other ways, besides texting and DMing,

Nick VinZant 7:48

yeah. Like, do you feel like people are more prepared for this now than they were a few years ago? Or are they less prepared for this now than they were?

Trisha Addicks 7:56

Less less the games have changed. Also, I can't believe I forgot to mention this social media is is a huge thing, and that should you should already have that in May. You should make sure that that is what you want to portray, because the minute you register for rush, they're going to start looking at your social media, getting background on you. They're going to do a deep dive on you. So your social media needs to be perfect. But I forgot what was the question,

Nick VinZant 8:23

Do people seem more prepared for this now or less prepared for this now than they were 510, years ago?

Trisha Addicks 8:32

Less prepared, which is one of the reasons I wrote my book and why I have my company. It's it's gotten so competitive, the numbers are just increased. People are more interested in Greek life now than they ever have been. So what how that translates is, if you show up thinking this is you're going to be able to win, you're going to wing it and just walk into the sorority of your choice, then you have a world of hurt coming. I mean, it can happen. I've seen it happen, but not, not nearly as much as if you've prepared

Nick VinZant 9:04

if

Nick VinZant 9:04

you were going to kind of look at it like, okay, what are the three big things that most sororities are going to be looking for out of potential members,

Trisha Addicks 9:14

grades, personality and charisma. It is not, it is not about looks.

Nick VinZant 9:23

It's really not about looks, or

Trisha Addicks 9:25

it's really not about looks. It's really not about looks. And I've never picked a friend because of the way they look. And there's a lot of noise out there. There's a lot of noise with Rush talk, and there's a lot of a lot of Ooh, you have to be skinny, blonde and pretty. But if you boil boil it down, it's really about girls or young women trying to find genuine friends. And so the fact that somebody's skinny and blonde and wears pink does not that doesn't factor into friendships.

Nick VinZant 9:59

Mm.

Trisha Addicks 10:00

And if it does, then there's the wrong friendships.

Nick VinZant 10:02

Are you ready for some harder, slash listener submitted questions?

Trisha Addicks 10:06

Sure.

Nick VinZant 10:06

Who's harder to deal with? The potential sorority members or their parents?

Trisha Addicks 10:12

Depends. It's case by case. But traditionally, parents

Nick VinZant 10:17

how come?

Trisha Addicks 10:18

So here's the thing, here's the thing, I'm a parent, and I would do anything for my boys and my daughter in law. I would do anything for them. And when it's out of your control, and you're used to opening doors and you're used to helping them, you know you're arguing with the coach about playing time or whatever it is, you're, all of a sudden, you have zero control, and you're also, you have a sorority rush consultant who, so you're yelling at the sorority rush consultant, so be and then, you know, I get a lot of flowers after rush. Oh, I'm so sorry that I was so mean to you. But it's really hard for parents to understand that this is something that their daughter is prepared for, that she's most likely, if she's done the work, gonna find her people. And that's really all you want, but you they straight up lose their minds during rush week. Straight up.

Nick VinZant 11:18

What would you say is kind of one experience like that that stands out to

Nick VinZant 11:21

you the

Trisha Addicks 11:22

most. This was, I don't know, a long time ago, but I worked with the mom and the daughter, but mostly the daughter. The daughter understood. So everybody gets cut, right? Everybody gets released. You can't end up with more than one. It's just a means to an end, and it stinks, but it is how it has to happen. So the girl was prepared for this. I mean, she was upset, but she was we were working through it, helping her pivot all the things. And two in the morning, my phone rings, and it's the dad who I'd never spoken to before, and he's like, What the hell you I hired you, and my daughter is and so here's the thing you you know your daughter, or they know their daughter. They know that she's wonderful, and they know that she's all these great things, but they don't understand the system. So when something happens, like an inevitable cut, the parents are like so he was losing his mind, so I stayed up with him on the phone from two until seven. But it it's really shocking, and that's not that's not abnormal. Why did they take it

Nick VinZant 12:30

so hard if they don't get into alpha, alpha, alpha, and they instead get into beta, beta, beta, like, Does this really affect people's whole life trajectory?

Trisha Addicks 12:41

That's not what they're upset about. They're upset because their their daughter may have said, I want to be an alpha, alpha alpha. And then they're like, Okay, she has to be an alpha, alpha alpha. But in reality, keeping an open mind is so important, because beta, beta beta might be her people or whatever, but so this is what we work with on the daughter. There are parents out there who are like, my daughter has to be what they perceive as the top sorority. And I don't. We don't even take clients whose parents say that that it is sometimes they bait and switch us, but they we don't take clients who say, Oh, I have to be in one of these top three sororities because you're doomed for failure, because, let's say, even if your best friend from Camp is in one of those top three sororities, and you're being rushed like crazy, let's say the sophomore that's has more friends in the sorority about is the sophomore who has more friends than the sorority has a friend from camp, and she's advocating for that person and their best friends. And so then all of a sudden, even though you are sure you're going to get a bit bid from them, doesn't happen. It doesn't have anything to do with you. Your friend still loves you, but the other friend, the other girl, had way more connections in the sorority. So there's all kinds of dynamics that play out. Can you just as somebody not knowing anybody, not having any connections, just get into one of these top sororities. Or do you kind of have to know somebody? Well, you're talking to the wrong person when you're saying top sorority. Because I don't think that there's a top sorority. I recognize that there are traditional ones, but because of the competition at every school, and this includes Ivy League, down to Sanford and Alabama. At every school there are, you're going to find your people, but the competition is so tough that so let's say, I'll just use numbers an example. Let's say 2000 people go to Alabama. Now, let's use Georgia. All right, 2000 people go to Georgia. Now, the riggers there. So they're, they're four, Oh, wonderful. If there are top three or five sororities, where are all those other amazing, smart, dynamic girls going to go? They're going to go into other sororities. So

Nick VinZant 14:59

you.

Trisha Addicks 15:00

You can find your people, and there's no such thing, although I'm recognizing, and I do recognize it in my book, that there are, like, people who think that this is traditionally, that's usually a little more old school. Grandmother's grandfather's, I mean, grandmother's mother's aunts, that kind of stuff. Are like, Oh, you have to be a whatever, wherever. But that is really gone by the wayside. It has to just because the sheer numbers,

Nick VinZant 15:23

what do you think has been the biggest change that you've seen in the way that rush happens over the last over your since you've been doing this?

Trisha Addicks 15:32

The biggest change in the way Rush is done? I would say the social media part of it is one rush. Talk has made people think sororities are something different than they are. And I mean, super like the dances outfits of the day, all that stuff. It's really fun to watch, but that's not what it's all about when you get in. And so that's the biggest change, is people watching that, having those expectations that they're going to be doing coordinated dances in $5,000 outfits when they get to campus, and then they're like, wait, what? Why is this person wearing a t shirt and just chilling with me? It's just, it's just a different social media has put a shiny spin on everything.

Nick VinZant 16:19

Yeah, and

Trisha Addicks 16:19

there is some, there are some, there are some shiny parts, for sure. But going in, expecting that that's what it is, has really done a number on these people.

Nick VinZant 16:30

One of the big questions that we got is about rush talk. Like, what is your overall thoughts about it like, when you first started kind of seeing that stuff appear, what did you think?

Trisha Addicks 16:39

I think it's a fun thing to watch. I do think it can be dangerous for someone to see someone saying, oh my David Jeremy bracelet, my air maze bracelet. You don't need to have brands to be successful and rush. And I feel like, especially for people who might not have the budget or the money for that,

Nick VinZant 16:59

I

Trisha Addicks 16:59

think it can be really daunting and it can be really a bad thing. So I think understanding what rush talk is, which is very entertaining, cool, whatever, but also understanding that really the only thing you need to have is charisma and grades and confidence.

Nick VinZant 17:21

Is this a full time business? Like, can you give me any perspective on, like, how many clients you would see in a given year, or anything?

Trisha Addicks 17:28

Yes, it's crazy. Full time. I have 28 people who work for me.

Nick VinZant 17:33

You have 28 people working I thought you were gonna say clients, period, not 28 people working for this is huge then,

Trisha Addicks 17:42

yeah, no, it's, I mean, we, we are, you know, the first and I think the best, and we are very elevated in that, that we're really not so one of my very favorite stories is we worked with a girl, young woman, who was going through rush. Her family signed us, signed her up for our services, and she went through our program and what, and she decided she didn't want to go through rush. She wanted to be in the theater at her school. And her parents were at first, like, what? And then they were like, You gave her the confidence to know what she wants, and that's what it's all about. And so that was one of the biggest wins I've ever had as a sorority rush consultant, which is not a very good business model, but it that's what it's all about. It's all about helping these young women understand how to get what they want, and how to understand themselves, and how to communicate that

Nick VinZant 18:44

schools and universities where Sorority Life is the biggest,

Trisha Addicks 18:49

I venture to say all of them, I really, I really, so I get that also surprises people when they're like, Ooh, I'm going to Alabama. I have to prepare for rush. And I'm like, Dude, you could go to, I don't know what I mean. Every school that has Greek life, for the most part, has a big presence and or the people that are in it are really into it. So it's everywhere. It's everywhere.

Nick VinZant 19:18

What is a secret score?

Trisha Addicks 19:20

So there is a score that you get as a PNM before you ever step on campus, and that is your grades, your video, your resume, your all the things that you submit, your rush materials and or connections. It's going into rush knowing that you have a score and that you can only add or add or subtract in a very low margin from that is important.

Nick VinZant 19:52

What do you think? What do you like? Is there anything to read into, or there's there any concern in your mind, in the idea that you've got 1920 21 year olds judging the future of an 18 year old?

Trisha Addicks 20:04

Yes, yes, there's there. I am the biggest proponent of Greek life, national pan, Hellenic. I feel like they're doing the best they can. But sure, yeah, it's the inmates running the asylum someplace sometimes, and it's, it is girls who, I mean, girls have a lot of drama sometimes, and so that all plays into it.

Nick VinZant 20:28

Yeah, do you think there should be I don't, right? The only I, only reason I say this is because I remember myself at 18 to 22 and I didn't know anything compared to what I know now, right? Like, I wouldn't consider myself an adult at that age, even though I legally was like, does there need to be, I don't want to say adults in the room, but does there need to be older people in the room also making these decisions?

Trisha Addicks 20:54

No, because then that become so yes, there are advisors.

Nick VinZant 20:58

Advisors. That's a better way of Yeah,

Trisha Addicks 21:00

yeah. So there are advisors for every sorority has advisors and but they're not actively involved unless things get crazy in that decision making process, because the girls or the young women are the ones who are going to be living with them, working that kind of stuff. So but that does lead to to answer your question very candidly, which is what I do. I mean, yeah, there's, there's some, some issues with that. And, you know, there's some, there can be stuff where people are like, well, I don't like her.

Nick VinZant 21:34

Is there an opposite? Do you have a counterpart, right? Like, is this a thing also for fraternities?

Trisha Addicks 21:40

There's not a need for it. I believe in fraternities, the process of going through Rush is completely different for fraternities and sororities.

Nick VinZant 21:48

What is it about it that's different? It's just,

Trisha Addicks 21:50

it's just a more chill it's more chill process. And if you show up and you show up consistently at Rush events, you're probably going

Nick VinZant 22:00

to get a

Nick VinZant 22:00

bid. I was in a fraternity. Does that surprise you? Like I was

Trisha Addicks 22:03

not, it does not in the slightest. And if you tell me where, if you tell me where you went to college, I could probably

Nick VinZant 22:11

guess

Nick VinZant 22:11

what it was K State.

Trisha Addicks 22:13

This is my super power, but not with fraternities. This my caveat. If you, if I meet a woman, talk to her for however long we've been talking, 45 minutes, and I know what school she went to, I'm usually that in 1000 Sigma Chi would be what I would say. That

Nick VinZant 22:32

is exactly what I was in. I was a Sigma Chi at K State, but yep, I was a Sigma Chi at K State in the sense of like they asked me to join. I joined, and then I think I was there for like, three months, and then never showed up again, but just hung out with the people that I liked.

Trisha Addicks 22:47

I also get that, yeah, no, it's I also,

Nick VinZant 22:50

I was just a dude who signed up. Is there a sorority equivalent of that? Like, are some sororities, like, hey, just this, ain't that serious?

Trisha Addicks 23:00

They, they take it seriously, yeah, meaning, I don't. There are sororities that do not traditionally do well in rush because they're disorganized and but that's a self fulfilling prophecy, meaning that if they don't prepare for I mean, the amount of work that these people are doing is insane, like they started working in October for this coming up falls rush, so And there's all kinds of dynamics that play out in there, but there are some sororities that do not put in the work, and it's just like anything, you don't put in the work, you don't get the results.

Nick VinZant 23:45

How important is being a legacy?

Nick VinZant 23:47

It's

Trisha Addicks 23:48

not important at all anymore. Sheer numbers, you can't at one particular school, there were 177 Chi Omega legacies going through one year, and their pledge class was 89 so even if they had space, I mean, even if they gave only chi omegas, a spot that still leaves out a huge part that just the numbers are just insane, you can't legacy just doesn't matter.

Nick VinZant 24:16

So

Nick VinZant 24:16

when you put together the rush Bible, what do you think is the most important part of it, like, what would if you had to sum like, Oh, this is the thing that people should take away from

Nick VinZant 24:26

it.

Trisha Addicks 24:28

The thing that people should take away from it is that you have to do the work to get the results you want. You have to do the work, and this gives you the tools to do it. The other thing that I want people to take away from it is that being in a sorority does not determine your worth.

Nick VinZant 24:51

Does it say anything about the person's like, what advice I guess, would you give to somebody then, in that sense, where I really worked hard, I really wanted to get. To this sorority, and I just didn't get in.

Trisha Addicks 25:04

So in that instance, there's a whole chapter in my book. Rejection is redirection. You You got to come up with a you have to fall in love with Plan

Nick VinZant 25:14

B.

Nick VinZant 25:14

How do I know a sorority is really what they are saying? Like, if I'm trying to find the place that's right for me. How do I know that they are really accurately putting out there what they are like?

Trisha Addicks 25:28

It's hard to know that, but you can trust your gut, and you can also look around the room, see the way they're they're interacting. There are a lot of tricks, for lack of a better word, to figure out what's, what's the smoke and mirrors and what's really, what it's really like. Another way that you can do it is when you're going through rush, or I'm supposed to say recruitment, but my book is the rush Bible, so No, when you're going through, look around at who's in the room with you the other PNMs, and you can kind of get a sense for that, I mean, but it is. I mean, they're putting on a show. You're, you know, everybody's playing a part in this, and their part is to sell you on their sorority.

Nick VinZant 26:14

I want to thank Tricia so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites were profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. And if you want to learn more, the book is the rush Bible. There's a link to it down in the description. It's available now. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. If somebody was going to take you out, do you think it's going to be a stranger or somebody you know?

John Shull 26:50

Probably, probably a stranger? I don't feel like I don't think my wife would ever take me out, and she's probably the only one that would even care enough to take me out personally.

Nick VinZant 27:01

I also think a stranger is more likely to be the person to take me out. I can't really think of family or friends or people that I know that have that big of an issue that they would do it, but I think most people would say someone that they know, but I don't, I don't, I guess I don't really understand that a little bit.

John Shull 27:26

For me, it's not even a question of, really, who it's, just how, like, I feel, like, if it's somebody, you know, it's going to be more of a personal attack, right? Like, probably a knife or something like that. If it's a stranger, it's probably more or less going to be something random. Still doesn't mean it's not going to be terrible. But look, I'd rather take a crossbow to the back then, like be stabbed 40 times.

Nick VinZant 27:51

Oh, stabbing is the worst way. I would not want to be stabbed. As a former news reporter, I've been to some stabbing scenes, a number of them, and those are nasty. Would you either be shot or hit by a car?

John Shull 28:04

I'm dead, right? Or no,

Nick VinZant 28:07

you are going to, you are going to survive long enough to feel the pain shot or hit by a car.

John Shull 28:14

I'll say shot, I guess, because I feel like, if you're shot, you know it's, it's, you probably have more of a chance of, a chance of, well, no, that doesn't make any sense. I'll just say shot. They both suck. I don't know. It's hard to choose one or the other.

Nick VinZant 28:26

I think I would rather be shot simply because it seems like it would be more localized to one area, whereas if you get hit by a car, it's probably just everything. Like, it's not just going to be like, Oh, you cracked some ribs. Like, no, you get hit by the car, then you hit the ground, then something else might hit you. So I think that there's too many other factors involved in getting hit by a car. Now bus, if I got hit by a bus, you're just done. I would, I would take that.

John Shull 28:56

Yeah. I mean, I'm not making light of this whatsoever. But few days ago, there was that guy that, or, I actually don't know if it's a man or woman, but they, they jumped over the airport fence and and basically stood in front of a plane that was landing. I mean, that would be, you know, once again, I don't know the circumstances, that I'm not making light of it at all, but in terms of what we're talking about, like, if you're gonna get hit by a blunt force object. I would just want it to be very quick. I wouldn't even want the 30 seconds.

Nick VinZant 29:25

I don't think, I think it would actually be kind of difficult to get yourself hit by an airplane. Was it a full size airplane, or was it a small airplane?

John Shull 29:35

No. I mean, it was a, yeah, it was a full size, 200 people on board, things like that.

Nick VinZant 29:39

Was it landing or taking off

Nick VinZant 29:43

landing,

Nick VinZant 29:43

I think that would actually be really tricky to do. Like, you would have to position. You'd have to know where that was going to happen in the first place, to really put yourself into that position,

John Shull 29:53

right?

Nick VinZant 29:54

Like, but am I wrong?

Nick VinZant 29:55

Yeah.

Nick VinZant 29:55

I mean, I don't want to, like, make light of the situation, but if you taking about the legit. Sticks of getting that done, you'd have to really know where that airplane was going to land, in terms of, like, where on the runway, and where on the runway, like lengthwise and width wise, to position yourself correctly to get hit by it. Think that's a lot of work.

John Shull 30:19

There is video that was released, I believe, by the airport infrared video that shows the person on the runway and then not anymore.

Nick VinZant 30:29

But so I polled the audience, 91% say someone they know. Only 9% say stranger. I would have thought stranger would be a lot higher, because I personally don't know that many people who would want to take me out. I

John Shull 30:46

don't think people are thinking like thoroughly on that. You know, I think people are

Nick VinZant 30:51

right.

John Shull 30:52

Are leading with their heart. So to speak, I wouldn't want someone that I know to kill me like that'd be even if you showed up at my house and like to kill me. I'd be sad about that more so than if I just got popped by a random stranger.

Nick VinZant 31:06

What if, like, you got hit by a car you knew you only had a couple, like, minutes left to live, and you see me

John Shull 31:16

get out of the car? I You know what, I would probably just lay my head back on the asphalt or wherever I am, but just yep, this, this is a perfect culmination to my life. Nick ended up doing what he set out to do two decades ago, and he killed him.

Nick VinZant 31:32

What if I said, like, this is how I've I've been planning this for years.

John Shull 31:40

Are you get out, you're like, Hey, I've been banging your wife for two decades,

Nick VinZant 31:45

right? It was like, Hey, man.

John Shull 31:47

Like, just yeah, I'm

Nick VinZant 31:48

sorry I hit you. Just wanted you know I'm fucking

John Shull 31:53

your wife. Your

Nick VinZant 31:55

children are mine.

John Shull 31:56

Yeah, no, no, that would Oh, my God, that dude, that sounds terrible. I mean, yeah, that would be, that would be brutal. That would be not like, just put yourself in that situation. You get hit by a car, and then the person that you dislike the most gets out as you're dying, and it's like, Oh, hey, by the way, your life is mine. Your children are mine. Money is mine.

Nick VinZant 32:19

This could potentially touch on why I ultimately believe that there is nothing after us in the Hereafter, like we don't go anywhere. We just die because my father, God bless him, had on my mother's tombstone written, they're not leftovers, they're planned overs. And if there was a God, if there was an afterlife, she would have risen from the dead to kill him. She would have risen from the dead to kill him. And so this is why I ultimately don't believe in an afterlife.

John Shull 33:01

First off, that's the if anyone's wondering, that's where Nick gets all of his wit from. It's his father. And I would imagine, if your wife goes before you, you would probably do something similar on her gravestone.

Nick VinZant 33:15

I'll be there in a second. I'm almost ready. That's what I'm going to put on my wife's I'm almost ready.

Nick VinZant 33:23

It's like,

Nick VinZant 33:23

All right, we got 20 minutes.

Nick VinZant 33:24

Oh, man,

Nick VinZant 33:25

okay.

John Shull 33:27

All right, let's, let's do some shout outs here. So we'll start with Clinton. McCain, Max Stanton, Wallace, Stafford. Stafford, I don't know why I said. Stafford. Leanna Morrow, Jeannie Jacobs, George Hoffman, Ryan Blevins, Marvin O'Reilly, Noah, Bryan and Olivia. Blair,

Nick VinZant 33:53

oh, Olivia, I like the name Olivia. That's a good one. That's pretty solid. Okay,

John Shull 34:00

the name of my first crush back in elementary school, Olivia, just FYI.

Nick VinZant 34:04

Mine was Kristen,

John Shull 34:05

Olivia horn, and she had a sister. We used to call them the horny sister.

Nick VinZant 34:11

Did she? Did she return your affections?

John Shull 34:16

No, actually, I don't think so. Neither sister. I went after both sisters as a as a third grader. Imagine how that turned out.

Nick VinZant 34:24

Wait, the both sisters were in the same grade. Were they twins?

John Shull 34:29

Yes, they were. It was the horn. Horn sisters.

Nick VinZant 34:32

Do you think twins think it's weird if you hit on one and not the other? Do you think twins think it's weirder to hit on both of them, or not to hit on both of

Nick VinZant 34:43

them.

John Shull 34:49

I've never thought about that. So give me 20 seconds. Let me let's see. I mean, if I was a twin, like if we were twins, yes, I would be jealous of you. It. Few were constantly getting the affection and the attention, I would wonder, you know, what's Why aren't I getting that? Now, wasn't there a movie made where, I think, was based on a real life story of of twins that were together, and one of them was getting all the attention and the other one wasn't?

Nick VinZant 35:16

Yeah, it's

John Shull 35:17

like, can you

Nick VinZant 35:17

imagine the video and Arnold Schwarzenegger,

John Shull 35:20

no, that they weren't like, stuck together, right? They weren't like, born as one body,

Nick VinZant 35:26

oh yes, stuck on you, or something like that. But I

John Shull 35:29

anyway, it doesn't matter.

Nick VinZant 35:30

I feel like it would be especially devastating if you were the twin that didn't get the attention, because they're basically saying, Oh, it's just your personality. It's who you are as a person, right? Like, oh no, because I clearly like the way that you look, but it's just your personality.

John Shull 35:49

I mean, it's just so,

Nick VinZant 35:53

so,

John Shull 35:53

yeah, I mean, I'm just going from experience. I mean, the horn sisters there was definitely, I mean, Olivia was, I mean, you're the third grade, you're a kid, right? But I definitely remember Olivia being a little more attractive than her sister. I haven't thought of, I haven't thought of the horn sisters in two decades, maybe longer, but here we are. So yeah, I would feel pretty bad if I was the other twin. I guess.

Nick VinZant 36:15

Would you

John Shull 36:16

which I would be, of course,

Nick VinZant 36:17

would you rather be rejected for your looks or your personality? I

John Shull 36:23

personality, my personality for sure.

Nick VinZant 36:26

Oh yeah, because you can kind of change your personality. You just kind of look like that. Okay. Good twin talk, bud. Good twin talk.

John Shull 36:36

What? Well, what? Twin talk. Twin talk.

Nick VinZant 36:38

My dad is a twin

Nick VinZant 36:39

twin.

Nick VinZant 36:39

My dad is a twin, and only one time have I confused his twin brother for him, and it was really, really weird.

John Shull 36:48

My oldest daughter has a pair of twin boys on her soccer team, and you can't tell them apart. It's insane. It's yeah, I feel bad twins because they're both, you know,

Nick VinZant 37:01

you don't really know that well.

John Shull 37:06

So I have to start off the next part portion of the show with, I'm very disappointed in us as a species.

Nick VinZant 37:15

Okay, just now 2026

John Shull 37:18

so the White House releases, you know, classified documents on UFOs and aliens, right? Which some say it's a diversion tactic. Let's keep politics out of it. Let's just look at it from a base level, our government released what they say are are proven alien encounters, and it doesn't even make the main news cycle,

Nick VinZant 37:49

because we know it's

John Shull 37:50

not true in the I mean, okay, let me circle back for one second. I Yes, I agree with you. I a lot of it is already shit that's been out in the internet. Like, it almost looks like somebody copy and pasted shit from the internet, you know, ripped up a file and was like, hey, this file was made in 1946 like, but regardless of all that around the world on Earth, we say, here are some pictures of aliens, and no one gives a shit.

Nick VinZant 38:21

Well, okay, are they saying that they're aliens, or they're saying they're unidentified flying objects? Because that's very different, like, I don't think, I think the reason that we don't react to it is because it's not really proof. If they released pictures of little green men standing next to us, that would be a very different story. Instead, they're kind of releasing this thing about, like, there's an object that went by and we don't really know what it is. So I think that there's just a really big difference between like, it's not proof, it's just, hey, here's stuff we don't know what that is.

John Shull 38:57

So is it a me thing? Then am I? Am I, like, part of the problem, because I jumped to the conclusion, like Neil deGrasse Tyson came out, and he had a great podcast about this, basically saying, like, exactly what you said, essentially, that it could be anything. It could have been space dust, right? Some of the pictures they released, like, there is no picture of a little green man, you know, or they released a grainy photo of some kind of creature, but it could have been a dog for all we know, right? Like, I like, I wanted it to be real. Like, this administration, I've gotten excited about nothing, and I'm like, man, they're finally gonna and I should have known it. I should have known it was going to be complete.

Nick VinZant 39:42

Bs,

John Shull 39:42

I'm still, I'm still upset about

Nick VinZant 39:44

so you want, you want to live in a time where aliens visit the earth like you want to find out that there's other life in there. You want it to have come

John Shull 39:55

here, not against it. I mean, if they're friendly, sure, right? I mean, obviously I don't want aliens. To try to take over Earth and won't ruin us. But maybe that's what Earth needs at this point. I have no idea. Yes, I would be fine with with aliens visiting Earth, or even shit my ass up to an alien planet. I don't care. That'd be dope.

Nick VinZant 40:15

Oh, I Okay. I mean, I don't know about shit, but shipping your ass, which really sounded like, you said shit my ass, and I was like, What? What is shit your ass like anyway, I don't want to know that aliens exist in any way. And I don't want to be living on this planet when we find out that aliens do exist, if they do exist, I think that that will go over. Is one of the greatest colossal cluster fucks that we have ever experienced, like we are going to lose our minds if that happens, because as a history major from the great Kansas State University, I can tell you that anytime two different populations run into each other, it does not go well,

John Shull 40:55

you're not wrong. I will. I mean, it's we've, talked about a lot of things in this podcast, and to me, part of the reason why I'm disappointed is, for one, there was no like, definitive proof, which means there probably don't exist.

Nick VinZant 41:14

Oh yeah, if you think about the actual logistics of life from another planet visiting us, it's almost impossible. That would be something that I I would not be surprised if we exist for 1000s, 10s of 1000s, maybe hundreds of 1000s, maybe millions of years, and never find out like the universe is just too big. It's just a logistics problem.

John Shull 41:35

I mean, yeah. I mean it's yeah, we'll never, we will never have an alien encounter. Us, our our children, our children's children, times 50, we'll never have an alien encounter.

Nick VinZant 41:52

And I'm going to rerun

John Shull 41:58

that happens. Someone hire me, pay me money, because

Nick VinZant 42:02

I

John Shull 42:02

can see that this is

Nick VinZant 42:03

what

Nick VinZant 42:03

I don't understand about your jinxing, which you understand that you're a jinxing Why don't you do the opposite of what you think like, You're a terrible gambler. You always get it wrong. Why don't you do the opposite? Like, you know what? I really think that the bucks are going to win this so I'm going to vote for the other I'm going to pick the other team. Like, why don't you do the opposite when you know you always make the wrong decision.

John Shull 42:26

Here's the thing, I don't know what I've jinxed with you. For you to label me a jinxer? I ever think I'm a jinxer,

Nick VinZant 42:32

you're a massive jinxer.

John Shull 42:33

No, what? What have I ever jinxed? Give me a definitive

Nick VinZant 42:38

i There's so many that I can't think of it like,

John Shull 42:41

okay, okay,

Nick VinZant 42:42

tell me the last time you walked somewhere. I don't know. I walk all the time, all over the place, like, I probably can go through our text message chain and come up with at least five different examples of where you've jinxed something. You're a jinxer. You know

John Shull 42:55

your mind, I jinxed it. I'm not a jinxer. I'm not not a jinxer. I've had a fantastic life, and I've called out it from day

Nick VinZant 43:04

one. How's

Nick VinZant 43:04

your gambling?

John Shull 43:05

If I was a jinxer,

Nick VinZant 43:06

how's your gambling,

John Shull 43:08

I I made money on the Kentucky Derby. I didn't lose it,

Nick VinZant 43:12

right? Okay, so that's not really an overarching look at your gambling history that's taking one moment in time that you actually won. How's your gambling?

John Shull 43:20

What

Nick VinZant 43:20

are you up? Are you down? It's a simple

John Shull 43:22

question, gambling in like, the history of my entire life, gambling, yeah, I'm down. Of course I'm down. But that's not jinxing. That's because my first 10 years of gambling, I was young and dumb like now you know, you know how I won the Derby, because I put money on every horse to win, okay,

Speaker 1 43:45

and a

John Shull 43:46

long shot one,

Nick VinZant 43:47

and that's not really winning like, that doesn't count. If you bet on every single horse,

John Shull 43:54

did

Nick VinZant 43:55

you win money? I don't even know how that's possible, because I've always wondered the idea of, like, I'm going to spend a million dollars and buy lottery tickets. I've gotta win. Did you win money? Well, betting on every single horse,

John Shull 44:10

yeah,

Nick VinZant 44:10

like, net money.

John Shull 44:11

Well, now here's the thing, yeah, I netted some money, but it wasn't, I mean, it was, it was pretty close, but, you know, you put $1 down right on every horse. And if a like, I think it was a 36 to one one odds horse one. I won 36 bucks. There's only 21 horses, so I'm up $15 right there. Like,

Nick VinZant 44:36

I feel like this is a giant loophole in the system that people should be maximizing.

John Shull 44:41

Anyways, you ready for a top five? You're jinxing my way of trying to, you know, just get a little

Nick VinZant 44:48

just don't think that. Like this is the kind of thing that none of the people who are running these better opera betting operations ever thought of. Like, wait a minute, if they just bet on every single horse, we'll lose. Is money like? Do you think that you have discovered some ultimate loophole, or are you just not really doing math very well?

John Shull 45:09

No, I mean, I'm doing what I want to do, and it satisfies my gambling need, and it makes me feel like I come out on top. I know the house always wins, but 20 $22 to win 40. Essentially, that's fine,

Nick VinZant 45:25

okay, but then why not just put off if your strategy works like I would be dumping mortgage payments into it,

John Shull 45:33

because I am not that brave. There are people that are that brave in that's why they run the show. Okay?

Nick VinZant 45:40

Are you ready for our top five? Then

John Shull 45:45

I am, as long as you you can't criticize any of my my top five.

Nick VinZant 45:51

Not criticize any of that's the whole point.

Nick VinZant 45:55

Why

Nick VinZant 45:56

would I not criticize? Criticize? Can't you handle criticism? Think you got to toughen up there.

John Shull 46:02

All right, fine. Okay,

Nick VinZant 46:03

so our top five is top five sports. Sounds your number five.

John Shull 46:10

So I just want to say that my number one, I left it off because it's kind of generic, but my number one by far, is like the sports crowd pop in any sport, like when there's a goal, when there's a big hit and wrestling, when there's a surprise person that comes back, that's my by far number one. But I left it off because it's too generic, Steph way.

Nick VinZant 46:30

Okay, okay, sort of the crowd. And I wouldn't even have put that honestly at number one, and I don't really consider that to be certainly by far number one, so I'll just disagree with you.

John Shull 46:42

All right. So my number five and this, they're all kind of peculiar, but my number five is when a football in American football doing soft and upright, and it's going, it's going, and you just hear the thud and it kicks the other way. I have so off the upright is my number.

Nick VinZant 47:01

I agree with that. I have a little bit higher on the list. My number five is race cars zooming past. It's such a cool sound. You know exactly what that sound is, too. Like you can't get that anywhere else, I don't think

John Shull 47:16

so. I have that a little higher up on my my list, actually.

Nick VinZant 47:20

Oh, okay.

John Shull 47:22

So my number four, man, it's actually a really hard list to compose, but for my number four, I'm going to put when a boxer lands a clean punch and you just hear that smack or thud, and you're just like, oh damn

Nick VinZant 47:37

Yeah. Like a real clean connect,

John Shull 47:41

like, if you've ever been to a boxing match in person, and you you, you can just feel it almost like no matter where you are in the arena, and you're just like, how is that other person even standing? I would have been laying there crying.

Nick VinZant 47:55

My number four is bowling strike. That's another really good one. Sound like that lead up to it, and then the strike sound. And you can always like, Oh, that's a strike.

John Shull 48:09

Yeah, it just sounds full, you know what? I mean, yeah, that's a good one. I have that one on my arm. Mentioned my number three is, what your number five was? The race cars going around, really, any, any race car like just going by, is it's an amazing sound, and it's so like to that sport, you can't get that anywhere else.

Nick VinZant 48:32

My number three is also your number five. My number three is the Doink on the uprights, because it's just such a funny sound. That's like, ah,

John Shull 48:41

yeah, that's, I mean, you two even made a song about it, which is kind of funny, yeah, back in the late or early 2000s late 90s. I forget the name of it, but it centers around a missed field goal, and that's how they open up the music video, and then that's the that's the premise for the song.

Nick VinZant 49:05

YouTube sucks. YouTube is a band that the farther you get away from them, the more you realize that they're like, crap.

John Shull 49:13

Did you get

Nick VinZant 49:14

you like?

Nick VinZant 49:15

It's

Nick VinZant 49:16

kind of, the thing is, like, it's like, I don't know what they're like now, necessarily, but it's kind of like eating at Applebee's or Chili's 10 years ago. We were like, Oh, that's okay. And then as you get away from you're like, oh, that's just kind of crap. That's you too. Like,

John Shull 49:33

stuck in a moment that you can't get out of. Is, was the name of the song a few or anyone out there cares

Nick VinZant 49:39

what this this this episode has made me realize how much I dislike you too.

John Shull 49:47

All right, my number two is the swish of a basketball or a basketball going through a net, and the swish sound of it, baby, which I as I've gotten older, I have learned to appreciate basketball even more. Four for how incredibly difficult that truly is.

Nick VinZant 50:04

Oh, my number two is also swish. I would put some other basketball sounds up there pretty high, like when somebody dunks it and you can hear the rim kind of give way a little bit. Another really good basketball sounding shot is when it hits the rim and then immediately goes in, like it's right next to a switch, like there's no question about it. That's another good basketball set. Okay, so what's your number one?

John Shull 50:30

So I wanted to put two at number one. I'm not so the other one's going to the honorable mention. My number one is going to be the crack of a baseball bat. There's nothing like it, especially when someone connects and hits the ball 425, feet, there's nothing like it. It's it's one of the best sounds on Earth.

Nick VinZant 50:49

I think that is an overrated baseball sound. I don't think that that is the best baseball sound. I think the best baseball sound is the ball hitting the glove. Because not only are you seeing that in a sporting event, but that's nostalgia, like everybody can think of a time playing catch with their parents or their friends like that. Sound is a really warm, heartfelt sound,

John Shull 51:16

like a warm hug.

Nick VinZant 51:17

Yeah, I've been playing a lot of catch with my sons recently.

John Shull 51:21

What I thought you were going to have as your number one, which is what I what I didn't put as my number one. That went to my honorable mention was the cracking of pads during football, like on a on a big hit.

Nick VinZant 51:33

Oh yeah, I guess I'm not really. I never played football besides, like, touch football and tackle football without pads. So I don't know what it's like to be tackled with pads on because played a harder game,

John Shull 51:47

I guess. Yeah, what's on your what's in your honorable

Nick VinZant 51:50

mention? Ton that you could put on your, on your honorable mention? I think that are on there, right? Like I would say a dunk is a really good one. I don't think that highly of roar of the crowd, because I feel like that's always going to be there. I would substitute roar of the crowd for silence of the crowd, like complete silence before you know what's going to happen. I think that's better than roar of the crowd. Honestly,

John Shull 52:19

I'm not. I don't know if I agree with you. I mean, there's nothing like a pop, man. There's nothing like a roar. I'll put professional wrestling like when somebody hits the mat

Nick VinZant 52:28

and

John Shull 52:29

it makes that, you know, like the sound there. Both of these are kind of the same, but really anything that goes off of a post, like a hockey puck, soccer ball. The thud that that makes is pretty awesome.

Nick VinZant 52:44

Yeah, I had one just a second ago that I lost. Dang it. I can't I just blanked. I

John Shull 52:51

also,

Nick VinZant 52:52

keep going. If you got any other

John Shull 52:53

ones, I also, I also, like when ice skaters stop on the ice and it makes like that sound and I sprays up. That's, that's pretty awesome.

Nick VinZant 53:03

I could go golf. You hit a really good drive. There's a certain sound to it, anything where you, when you do it correctly, it's got a really certain sound to it, like, oh, that's the sound that you're looking for.

John Shull 53:19

Curling knock I had on there too. Like, well, yeah, each other,

Nick VinZant 53:23

that's a good one.

John Shull 53:24

Like, that's

Nick VinZant 53:24

yeah, curling knock is a good one.

John Shull 53:28

Yeah, that's very, very, you know, sports Pacific, but that's it

Nick VinZant 53:33

for me, specific, or Pacific

John Shull 53:37

specific. Could

Nick VinZant 53:39

you just start saying that's very Pacific.

John Shull 53:43

Pacific

Nick VinZant 53:43

just, will you do me a favor for the rest of the week, whenever you have a chance to say specific, say Pacific instead, and be very Pacific about it.

John Shull 53:52

Why are you being so why are you being so Pacific?

Nick VinZant 53:55

It kind of sounds the same a little bit. You really have to, like listen to tell that the person didn't say specific, they said Pacific. Okay, that go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless, I want to thank you so much for joining us. I don't know why. I just felt like saying that as fast as I possibly could, but let us know what you think are the best sport sounds. I think roar of the crowd is overrated. It's probably amazing if you're hearing it as a player, but I think it's a little overrated as a fan, because everybody's always yelling about something. But let us know what you think are the best sports sounds.


The Business of the World Cup with Sports Economist Dr. Victor Matheson

The World Cup is the biggest sporting event in the world. But the action on the pitch still pales in comparison to the business going on behind the scenes.

Sports Economist Dr. Victor Matheson has studied the economic impact of the World Cup for more than thirty years. In this episode of Profoundly Pointless we talk the business behind the World Cup, the corruption inside FIFA and if any of the money generated by the World Cup will trickle down to you.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Summer Foods.

00:00 Introducing Dr. Victor Matheson

01:38 The Economic Impact of the World Cup

03:59 FIFA and Corruption

06:36 Will the World Cup Benefit Host Cities

16:17 World Cup Host Cities that Will Lose Money

17:50 How the United States’ Reputation is Hurting the World Cup

24:09 Pointless

40:26 Candle of the Month

49:17 Top 5 Summer Foods

Contact the Show

Interview with Sports Economist Dr. Victor Matheson

Speaker 1 0:00

Nick,

Nick VinZant 0:11

welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, World Cup business and summer foods. So

Dr. Victor Matheson 0:21

FIFA has a reputation and a well earned reputation of being wildly corrupt because of the money that was coming in. World Cup is spectacular for FIFA for everyone else, it's a much, much closer question about whether this is a good event for you. Several cities that well, Edmonton, in Canada and in Chicago, actually, both walked away from from the World Cup, saying, Look, we don't want these events because we think it's going to be more hassle than it's worth.

Nick VinZant 0:50

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he studies something that I think is fascinating. I'm not a huge sports fan. I like it, I enjoy it, but I'm not a huge sports fan. What does fascinate me, though, is the business of sports and how things like the World Cup can mean billions of dollars, and everything from uplifting cities, bringing them down, bribes, corruption, all of that that goes along with that amount of money. Our first guest is sports business expert, Victor Matheson, business wise, how big is the World Cup?

Dr. Victor Matheson 1:40

So it's one of the two biggest sporting events on the planet, Summer Olympics and World Cup. These are the two granddaddies of all mega events. The audience for the World Cup final that will be something like five to 10 times the size of the world of the audience for the Super Bowl, and the Super Bowl is by far the largest American sporting event, so we're talking about an order of magnitude bigger than the event that's by far the biggest American sporting event.

Nick VinZant 2:14

How much money are we talking about?

Dr. Victor Matheson 2:16

So for FIFA, FIFA stands to make somewhere between 10 and $11 billion on this event. They're gonna make a couple billion dollars selling tickets. We've probably heard about those sky high ticket prices. We they're gonna make several billion more on meteorites. And by several, I mean closer to, you know, five, $10 billion on media rights, plus other stuff, like, you know, Jersey sales, paraphernalia, sponsorship money, all of that sort of stuff.

Nick VinZant 2:44

Where does all that money go? Like, who's getting all this money?

Dr. Victor Matheson 2:49

Oh, there's one organization, one organization only, who's getting that money. And that's and that's FIFA.

Nick VinZant 2:54

So is FIFA a business? Is it an organization? Like, how does this kind of

Dr. Victor Matheson 3:00

So, basically, it's an organization that is designed to organize and promote and develop soccer in the world. Officially, it's a nonprofit that can grade on some people. Again, there's a nonprofit making $11 billion a year with extremely high paid executives, but the money that they generate, that which is not going to, you know, gold plated toilets in in Switzerland, at their at their world headquarters, it goes to a couple places. So it's going to go to pay the players. The players and the teams involved get very, very high payments associated with their participation. Some of it goes to actually organizing the event and paying for at least some of the costs associated with the event, and then the rest of it FIFA collects and then distributes to about 230 different national soccer associations across the world.

Nick VinZant 3:59

Is this on the up and up that this really kind of gets spread around. It really operates like a nonprofit. Or is it a little bit like, here you get this, you get this, I get all of this.

Dr. Victor Matheson 4:11

So FIFA has a reputation and a well earned reputation of being wildly corrupt because of the money that was coming in would would trickle down to these national associations, but the people who are in charge of those national associations again, wildly corrupt. We have large numbers of people who were jailed at times. We have we have significant scandals associated with bribery, associated with who is going to be awarded World Cups, who's going to be awarded media contracts to broadcast games? So yeah, soccer is very, very dirty historically, and there's a question about whether it remains, though I

Nick VinZant 4:55

kind of put everything in numbers categories on a scale of like one to 10. So if 10. Is the most corrupt that you can be, and one is you are an angel with no problems. FIFA used to kind of be what they're now, what

Dr. Victor Matheson 5:09

so FIFA used to be a an eight or nine. I will hold back what I think they are now. I will say most of FIFA is not engaged in active FBI investigations like they were as recently as five years ago. I don't

Nick VinZant 5:28

think I'm going to ask this question very well, so give me some leeway on this. Is there something about soccer, about the World Cup, that makes it so uniquely profitable. Or if, and if the NBA was this big, it would do the same thing. Or a football was this big, American football was this big, it would do the same thing. So is it the size, or is it the nature of the sport that contributes something special?

Dr. Victor Matheson 5:56

Yeah, so it's the nature of the sport. And what, what the nature of the sport is, is that that soccer has been adopted as basically the number one sport that people follow in roughly three quarters of the planet. There really are, legitimately 150 countries where people care and people care a lot, and even the United States, where it's not our number one sport, we still have 30 or 40 million people, including myself, who consider soccer their number one sport to watch. So that's what's great about it, you know when? And the other great thing is, there's lots of countries that are good at it, right?

Nick VinZant 6:36

Is the way that they're doing it, having games in 16 different cities. Is that going to make it more profitable, or would that take it away if you just had it in one place? So this

Dr. Victor Matheson 6:47

is actually going to make it a lot more profitable, and the reason for that is because you now have 16 times as much tourist infrastructure to host people coming in, and it also makes the cost lower, because you don't have to build new stadiums, right? So if we wanted to do like, for example, the entire world cup in Connecticut, right? We would have to build 14 new stadiums. And of course, that's exactly what happened in Qatar. I happen to be wearing a Qatar national national team jersey right now, but that's what happened in Qatar. Qatar had no available space. They're roughly the same size as Connecticut, but with half the number of people and about a 10th the amount of infrastructure. And so that cost them, like $300 billion in preparation costs, building all the tourist infrastructure, the transportation, the security, and, of course, the stadiums themselves. In the United States, we can spread this across 11 United States cities, three Mexican cities, two Canadian cities. You don't need to build new airports in any of these places, because, yeah, you might not be able to handle all of the World Cup traffic, but you can handle 1/16 of the World Cup traffic. You might not be able to handle all the tourists, but you can handle 1/16 of those tourists, which means that you can accommodate a lot more people. So it's a much better event from potential economic impact than, for example, the Olympics, that are much more expensive and are much more limited in the number of people who can actually go to the games, because there's only so many people who can come to Paris or LA but the number of people can come to the United States, Canada, Mexico, combined, is much, much higher.

Nick VinZant 8:26

Like, can this trickle down, right? So obviously, the players are getting paid, the FIFA people are getting paid. Does the hot dog vendor outside of, I live in Seattle, outside of the stadium? Like, is this good for them too? Can this trickle down to everybody?

Dr. Victor Matheson 8:40

Okay, so this is where we get into the grander social numbers here. So let's be very clear, World Cup is spectacular for FIFA, for everyone else, it's a much, much closer question about whether this is a good event for you. So certainly you bring a bunch of new people into town, but you have to worry about three things when you're talking about economic impact. Thing number one is what's known as the substitution effect. And what the substitution effect is is if a person in Seattle where you are, or Boston where I am, buys a World Cup ticket, that's That's an expensive ticket, right? This is you're starting at three or $400 and it's going up from there. That's money that's not available for you in Seattle to go spend on the mariners, because we've all got kind of a fixed entertainment budget, and FIFA is. Your FIFA tickets gonna use up a lot of that. So that's number one. Number two is crowding out. Seattle is a lovely place to be in June and July anyway, and your hotels would normally be full, and having the World Cup in town means that you're crowding out some of the economic activity that would normally happen the tourists, your regular tourists, who come to Seattle for the salmon, beer and coffee are going to be crowded out by tourists are coming to Seattle for. For the soccer so you can't say all these soccer fans are good without also saying, well, but what about the activity that's not coming? What about the regular tourist? And then the last thing is a leakage. And a leakage happens when money gets spent in Seattle but doesn't stick. So FIFA, that $400 ticket you're buying, none of that sticking in Seattle, right? If I was a regular tourist and went down to Pike Street Market, Pike Place Market, I would that all those folks are local, and so all the money I spend there is going to stick, it's going to get spent and re spent in the local economy. If I spend that money on World Cup tickets, that money immediately leaves the economy and never has a chance to benefit anyone in the city. So put all those together, and it's a much closer question about whether Seattle benefits in a huge way from the World Cup or not.

Nick VinZant 10:46

Yeah. And then when you have like, okay, you've got traffic concerns, you've got to have police officers that are there. You have to have the infrastructure to support like, who pays for that stuff? Is FIFA paying for that? Or is like, no, no, Seattle, you're on the hook for that.

Dr. Victor Matheson 10:59

Oh, oh oh, my sweet summer child, right? No, of course, of course. FIFA wants to pass that o on to other folks, right? So they want to be able to collect all of the money associated with the event and bring that to themselves, and then put the cost of hosting the event on other folks, things like transportation, things like security. And this has been, this has been a lots of concern, lots of debate about this. So for example, here in Boston, the stadium, this is Gillette Stadium, although during the World Cup, it's not Gillette Stadium, it's Boston soccer stadium, because FIFA does not want someone who has not paid FIFA licensing and sponsorship rights to get any sort of, you know, sponsorship boost from this. So it is not a Gillette Stadium, because that is that would support a non FIFA sponsor. So at the Boston soccer stadium, which actually isn't in Boston, it's in Foxboro, that's a that's a suburb about 25 miles southwest of downtown Boston, tiny town. It's about 20,000 people in it. They said, well, it's on you guys for for security, which is about an $8 million bill, they figured. And they said, Look, we're a 20,000 person town. This is, this would be, like, 35% of our total town budget for the year. We're not paying and we're not going to let you have games here. We're not going to issue the license for you to have an event in town, unless we see the money. And this was actually tiny town council in a little, tiny town face down FIFA. And did it successfully, a lot more successfully than mayors of places like LA and New York have done. And got FIFA to cough up the Security money. But in places like Boston, in New York, FIFA is not paying anything for transportation, which has led the cities to charge outrageous prices for transportation to stadiums. But this has been, this has been a concern and and rightly so. I think most taxpayers say, look, you're making 10, $11 billion on this part of that. You know, cost of doing business should be paying for the things you need to do business, like getting your customers to the to the event, and making sure they're safe while they're there.

Nick VinZant 13:15

How is FIFA kind of gotten away with that in the past? Are they just such a big dog that they can just come in and this is what we want, and you're giving it to us.

Dr. Victor Matheson 13:23

Well, right? So that's exactly right. They've got one, they've got this one very unique thing, right? Like, you know, a target could never get away with this, right? And say, Hey, do this for us, or we're not coming to town. And then the and then the town says, Fine, we'll get a Walmart instead. I also think that FIFA is better at driving a hard bargain than individual cities who who don't have World Cups in town every four years. So FIFA is much better at figuring out what kind of contract to stick folks with. But again, several American cities, several cities that will Edmonton and Canada and and Chicago actually both walked away from from the World Cup, saying, Look, we don't want these events because we think it's going to be more hassle than it's worth.

Nick VinZant 14:05

Is there, though, and kind of intangible slash effect that you can't calculate in the sense of, like, okay, yeah, the numbers add up to this. But you're forgetting about the global recognition that Kansas City receives, or Seattle receives from these events.

Dr. Victor Matheson 14:23

Here's the problem is number one, if I just go visit London, right? And I say, Oh, it was great. And I tell my friends when I get back, I'm like, Oh, I saw the crown jewels, and I saw a couple soccer games when I was there, and the museums were super and went on a cruise on the Thames. Everything was lovely, right? And then people want to go to, want to go to London in the future. On the other hand, if I go to the London Olympics, what I say is like, Oh, it was awesome. I was I went to one of the soccer matches, and it was like, five to four was the greatest match I ever saw. And then. When we were going home from that we actually met the Dutch handball team, and we got autographs with all them. And then then we went to the basketball final, and we were actually there for the gold medal gymnastics. It was, it was fantastic. And when you go back and tell your friends, they say, oh, that sounds awesome, but they don't say, I want to go to London. They don't say why. I want to go to Paris. They say, I want to go to Paris. They say I want to go to the Olympics. And so the the tourism effect doesn't help the city like Seattle or Kansas City. It makes people want to go to the next Olympics in LA or the next World Cup in Spain or Portugal. So your legacy tends to be a World Cup legacy, rather than a tourism legacy for the folks there.

Nick VinZant 15:43

Yeah, I used to be a news reporter in Orlando, and Disney World is obviously there. And they would always say, like, no, people aren't coming to Orlando. They're going to Disney World.

Dr. Victor Matheson 15:52

So that's right. And so when we actually, so funny you bring up Orlando, we actually looked at economic impact of the 1994 World Cup. We actually could not identify any, any identifiable benefits from hosting World Cup games back in 1994 despite the fact this was the most successful World Cup in history.

Nick VinZant 16:12

Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions.

Dr. Victor Matheson 16:15

Fire away.

Nick VinZant 16:17

What city do you think is going to benefit the most? What city do you think is going to take a bath on this?

Dr. Victor Matheson 16:22

Certainly, the potential for benefiting a lot are cities like New York and LA, they could benefit a lot for a couple reasons. Number one, they have some of the real premier events, right? We got the final in New York. We got semifinals in LA. So those are the sort of things I think semifinals in LA, those. So those are very premier games. Plus both of those cities are so large that you can accommodate a crush of World Cup fans, while also allowing your regular tourists to show up. Right? So in New York, New York has well over 120,000 hotel rooms, right kind of in, you know, Central New York, that's enough to accommodate, you know, 30 or 40,000 hotel rooms going potentially to World Cup fans, while Broadway fans and Statue of Liberty fans and just cool restaurant fans are still able to come into The City at the same time, so you get all the benefits without a lot of the crowding out. So that's one that you might expect there. It's It's tempting to put Kansas City on the other side of that, saying, Look, this is really all in company conferencing. It's the smallest of the American World Cup sites, and it's a site where, really, the World Cup is going to kind of take over the city, which means that all of the regular activity that was normally going to take place there is going to disappear.

Nick VinZant 17:50

Like, how do you think the current global environment and perception of the United States is going to affect this?

Dr. Victor Matheson 17:56

Yeah, so it's terrible, right? So really, the world, the way you make money from a mega event is by bringing people to your your location who would not have otherwise been there. So that's how you make the money, right? A local going to an event is just spending money one place rather than another. That's that substitution effect I talked about, but where you can actually make money. And what classifies something as a mega event is drawing people from outside the community in to spend their money. I think you should never feel bad for FIFA, but I do feel bad for them a little bit. They've just had an event in Qatar which was plagued with all sorts of problems associated with human rights issues, associated with LGBTQ issues for fans that went over they couldn't even sell beer at the stadiums, despite the fact that Budweiser is an official sponsor of the of the World Cup. So and the one before that was in Russia, which was awarded to them before they had invaded Ukraine for the first time. So I think they were really excited about finally going to a conflict and controversy free country, and then we get what is not at all a conflict or controversy free country, right? So, by making the United States less pleasant place to come, you reduce the number of people who are likely to be here, which you reduce the number of foreigners coming and depositing a bunch of money here. So we've flat up banned folks from places like Haiti and Iran, even countries like Cape Verde, they're in the World Cup for the first time. To come as a tourist from Cape Verde for the World Cup, you can get a visa, no problem, but to bring your family of four, you have to put down a $60,000 returnable bond to come visit the World Cup. Can you imagine going on vacation, for example, to Cancun, and you say, hey, please come visit Cancun. But we want to make sure when your vacation is over that you leave. So to come for your Cancun vacation, you have to come up with 60. $1,000 of cash that we will hold on to, and we promise to release to you in the end when you go back home, you know that would make Cancun a very undesirable place to travel, even if it has the best beaches or the best soccer so this is, this is wildly problematic. I don't think it's bad for the individual host cities, because I think what will happen is, at least in part, fans from other parts of the United States will come in and take the those places that were going to be filled by international guests. So I think the host cities individually will be fine, but the United States as a whole is definitely going to lose out by the fact that I'm expecting a much, much lower number of international tourists for this than you might have expected a couple years ago.

Nick VinZant 20:52

If I held your kind of feet to the fire, could you put a percentage on it in terms of like I was going to be down 10% 25% 50%

Dr. Victor Matheson 20:59

or whatever. I would not be surprised at all to see numbers 20 to 40% below what we would have expected otherwise.

Nick VinZant 21:08

Do you think, like, with some cities kind of rebelling against this, you mentioned Chicago and Edmonton? Do you think that we'll ever get to the point where cities are just saying, like, we're not going to do this, we're not hosting the Olympics. We're not hosting the World Cup. We're not going to do

Speaker 1 21:23

it.

Dr. Victor Matheson 21:23

Yeah, so that's actually already happened in the Olympics, the in the bidding for the 2022 and 2024 Winter and Summer Olympics, both of those events started out with about seven or eight serious bidders by the time they actually got done with the bidding, everyone had dropped out, except for two cases in each in the Winter Olympics that eventually went to Beijing. Mind you, a country that does not do winter sports has never been a winter sports power did not have a ski run anywhere close to the city. Doesn't really have a lot of snow in the winter. Even the reason Beijing got is because the only other country that was left in the bidding was Almaty in Kazakhstan. When it came to 2024 same thing happened. Boston dropped out, Hamburg dropped out, Madrid dropped out, Bucharest dropped out again, city after city dropped out, until only Paris and Los Angeles were remaining, and so they awarded 2024 to Paris. And at the same time, they did something they've never, ever done. They flat out gave the 2028 Olympics to LA, without ever putting it out for bid, because they were worried that if they did, they might not get anyone to come up. And they basically said, Hey, LA, you're already here. What would you say that we're leaning towards Paris, but would you be okay if we gave you 2028 just right now? And La said, Yes, but again, never went up to bid because they were worried they weren't going to get enough bidders, or the bidders they were going to get were going to be like Dubai are going to be Saudi Arabia, places that they are uncomfortable making it so that you can only host the Olympics in places that taxpayers can't revolt about it. Because, of course, you know, taxpayers don't really have a say in in Beijing, in Moscow in in Riyadh.

Nick VinZant 23:23

What is the old saying? Though? Right? You privatize profits, socialize losses.

Dr. Victor Matheson 23:27

That's been my last my that's been my life for the last 25 years. We've seen this in stadium economics. We've seen this in mega event economics all the time. I will say that we do have some good economic evidence that hosting these events really is fun. It is a big party. People will enjoy it. So we do have some evidence that mega events like the World Cup make us happy. We just don't have a lot of evidence that they make us rich.

Nick VinZant 23:53

I want to thank Victor so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. Were profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. Would you rather eat food with your fingers or with a utensil?

John Shull 24:19

Probably utensils saves the mess.

Nick VinZant 24:22

I like foods that you eat with your hands way better than I like foods that you eat with utensils. I don't think it's even close for me.

John Shull 24:32

I'm like a like a Dissector when I eat, like, if I get us like a sub sandwich, like, I'll eat the bread and then the meat, or the meat than the bread or something,

Nick VinZant 24:42

but then you don't get to taste like what it all tastes like together. I don't understand the point. So wait, if you're going to make a sandwich, you will make the sandwich and then take it all apart,

John Shull 24:54

like, for instance, let's say I'm eating like an Italian sub, right? I'll eat, you know, I'm. Take a bite or two of it together, but by the end of it, I'm eating the bread and then maybe the innards, you know, like the tomatoes and lettuce and onion mixture, and then I'm eating the Italian meat last because that's what I want the most.

Nick VinZant 25:12

Okay, but my thing is, like, what I don't understand is, then, why make the sandwich in the first place? Like, why put it all together? If you're just going to take it apart?

John Shull 25:21

It doesn't make sense. I don't know. Probably know, probably because I feel like, if I roll up to dinner with a stack of sandwich meat buns and just, you know, a mixture of lettuce, tomato and onions on the side, like, what? That doesn't make any sense either. I get it. I know it doesn't make sense, and I don't this is why I don't eat in public. Actually, I don't like to eat in front of people for this very reason, because I'm a, I'm a, I don't know. I'm a weird eater. I don't know what the right word is. It doesn't make

Nick VinZant 25:52

it. I I understand the not eating in public. I also do not like to eat in public. I don't like to eat in front of people. Like, whenever somebody says, like, Hey, you want to come over for dinner? You want to have dinner? Like, no, I want to eat dinner by myself at my house at the end of the day.

John Shull 26:09

But also, then I'll have, like a Capri se I'll have like a Capri se sandwich, but I'll eat that as the sandwich. You know, it's just, it's, it's weird, it's, I don't know how to just, I don't know how

Nick VinZant 26:19

I don't know what a I don't know what a Capri se sandwich is.

John Shull 26:23

That's the one with, like mozzarella, tomato pesto. I've never even

Nick VinZant 26:33

heard of it. You also can't say Capri say or however you say it, and then say sand wedge. You can't, like, say something fancy and then mispronounce the word sandwich.

John Shull 26:48

That's fair. That's, I don't even know I'm doing it. So from now on, I'll make sure to enunciate in my itches. So sandwich,

Nick VinZant 26:56

thank you. It's like saying, like, I would like to have a filet mignon. Give me the filet mignon. You can't, you can't have it both ways. This is what I'm getting on to you about, is that I don't understand how you try to have things both ways. If you want to have the sandwich deconstructed, that's perfectly fine, but why make the sandwich in the first place? You like that. You can't let them get to you like that. You got to stand up against the peer pressure. You're almost 40 years old. You should be able to be more confident about who you are as a person. I think this all comes down to you're not confident of who you are as a person, and you need to just be okay with it like you know what? I'm not having a sandwich. I'm just having all the parts of the sandwich separately. This

John Shull 27:38

is what I'm going to do, because if I wanted just meat. I would just eat the meat, but I make the sandwich, thinking, man, a sandwich sounds good. And then, like I said, I have a bite or two, and then I end up just dissecting it most times. So this is what it is, pizza. Like I, you know, pizza, if I'm eating it at my house, like, not in a social setting, I will use a fork and a knife, and I will create, like, little dipping stations. I'll have like, you know, olive oil or red pepper flakes or whatever, and I'll just dip it in those and enjoy it.

Nick VinZant 28:10

But you don't need to. You can dip it with your hands. Yeah, you can just not put your fingers in the dip. Listen, it's an inefficiency, and I don't understand the inefficiency. I can respect your choices, but I can't respect your inefficiency.

John Shull 28:25

I mean, I think it's, I think I am being efficient because I'm not getting myself dirty.

Nick VinZant 28:31

No, not

John Shull 28:31

getting my fingers.

Nick VinZant 28:32

You cannot get your you can still, you should also, no matter how you're eating, you should wash your hands after dinner, because you're still going to get some, a little bit of a residue on there, I think no matter what you're doing, so you're still going to have to wash your hands, but then you've got to wash the utensils as well. It's the inefficiency that I can't I can't agree with the inefficiency. I just can't. But I polled the audience about this. It's not even close. So I polled the audience, 73% say utensil food, only. 23% only, oh, sorry, 27% say finger food. I really thought that finger food would win easily, but I not.

John Shull 29:16

I mean, I think there's only, like I said, I think there's a few things that 100% you can only eat with your fingers, but everything else you it kind of goes into that blurred category.

Nick VinZant 29:28

What are you gonna well, okay, what foods are you gonna really question if somebody's eating that with utensils, hot dog, somebody's eating a hot dog with utensils.

John Shull 29:40

Hot dog for sure, hamburger like, you can use a knife to cut it, but I think it's a little weird if you're cutting up a hamburger to eat it, like, what the bun? I mean, gosh, maybe that's, I mean, some fruits, like watermelon. Calling. Like,

Nick VinZant 30:02

don't even, I have a big problem with people eating hand food with utensils. Anything with a bun should be eaten with your hands. Fruits should be eaten with your hands. You can get them a little bit dirty. I can't even think of a fruit that I would say, like, you know what? That's fine to go ahead and eat that with utensils. Can't think of a single

Speaker 1 30:24

one

John Shull 30:25

strawberries,

Nick VinZant 30:26

no,

John Shull 30:29

wow, that was a pineapple.

Nick VinZant 30:32

They basically come with a holder. Pineapple. Just pick it up. Well, actually, okay, maybe pineapple, because pineapple doesn't always come in, like, a very easy form. You don't know. You don't know exactly how you're going to get pineapple served to you.

John Shull 30:51

I mean, I'd say a lot of it for me, and I think a lot of it for other people. It's just, you just don't want the mess. You do make a good point, though, like, either way you're getting a fork or a spoon or something dirty. So it kind of offsets itself. But I think just in the moment, you know, you don't want to get sticky or dirty or, you know, slimy, any of that stuff,

Nick VinZant 31:14

yeah, I would just say my thing would be like, just learn how to do things without making a mess.

John Shull 31:20

Sorry, this person that you know,

Nick VinZant 31:24

well, yeah, I mean, I just learned how to not make a mess when I eat stuff. It's not real hard, like you've seen me, okay, all right, I eat like a Neanderthal, okay. How? How many? Okay, out of 10 meals, how many times are you going to get something

Speaker 1 31:41

on

Nick VinZant 31:45

your shirt? Oh, it's high, man, how many? Why? Many times? Why? How many times out of 10 Are you going to how many times out of 10 Are you going to get something on your shirt when eating? I

John Shull 31:57

mean, I'm probably 50% I'm probably five out of 10 times.

Nick VinZant 32:02

I think that's a little high. I think you can be I think acceptable is two to 320, 5% of the times you can get a little bit of a mess on yourself eating something. Otherwise, you should really be able to do this. That's too high. If you're batting 50% for making a mess on your shirt when eating, you need to you need to reevaluate what you're doing. Okay, you know, it's

John Shull 32:26

funny. It's funny. We're talking about food because I almost sent you a text this morning, because for those of you that might have listened this podcast many years ago, Nick said for breakfast he would always have a breakfast burrito,

Nick VinZant 32:40

and I had breakfast burrito, delicious.

John Shull 32:42

I had a now, what is $1.29 cent breakfast burrito? And I thought to myself, how the hell did he eat these? Or he said he ate these every day for breakfast, because they are terrible.

Nick VinZant 32:55

Well, they're delicious. I've had many good breakfast burritos. I love a good breakfast burrito. I think the burrito is one of the greatest things that's ever been invented. I would actually put the burrito above this sandwich.

John Shull 33:10

I mean, that's blasphemy, but okay,

Nick VinZant 33:14

I don't know. I think the burrito can be I think it's easier to make a really good burrito than it is to make a really good sandwich. That's just my opinion. It's right, but that's just my opinion. You ready? You ready to move on, and you want to

Speaker 1 33:27

talk

John Shull 33:28

about it? That's just my opinion, but I'm right, yeah, let's give some shout outs. All right, we're gonna start here with I

Nick VinZant 33:37

accidentally clicked something on my phone. I mean, like you don't have to react to noise, like it was just a bomb that went off in my house. It was my house. It was a slight other noise. It wasn't that big of a deal. You don't have to like, oh god, what's that? It's just, it's just just just a slight noise. Don't worry about

Speaker 1 33:52

it.

John Shull 33:52

You might have never but all right. Jordan, Grant, Alexis, Martin Lee, Baxter, Leslie, Fox, Terry George, Aaron Soto, Sydney, Leonard, Ashley Solomon, Marley, Steele and river Fletcher. Appreciate all

Speaker 1 34:13

of you this week.

Nick VinZant 34:14

Okay, so if you know of somebody named Jordan, are you thinking girl or boy?

John Shull 34:20

It's a great question. Um, I think I've known the same amount of Jordans that are both boys and girls. So yeah, I'm gonna go straight. I'm not gonna give you an answer. I'm gonna say straight down the middle

Speaker 1 34:30

on this

Nick VinZant 34:31

one. Okay, I would generally think I'd go 6040, 6040. Is going to be a girl. 40% chance is going to be a guy. I think I've known more female Jordans than I have male Jordans.

John Shull 34:46

I still think it's pretty evenly split. For me, I've known a lot of male and female Jordans. I've also known a bunch of rivers that I don't think River is a very common name. I. But yeah, no, you ever known a river?

Nick VinZant 35:04

No, no. I don't really know many people with uncommon names. I would say that's actually maybe a lifestyle choice of mine that I don't know a lot of people with uncommon names. I can't actually think of anybody with that I know, with probably the only person that I know with the most uncommon name, it would be you with Euclid fucking geometry over there.

John Shull 35:30

Wow. And you know who he, who he was the

Nick VinZant 35:33

course I do.

Speaker 1 35:35

I

Nick VinZant 35:36

don't know if he does. That's mathematics, by the way. It's not history.

John Shull 35:41

You Euclidean geometry, but

Nick VinZant 35:44

not

John Shull 35:45

gonna even pretend to be smart. I just know that from a little bit, the tiny bit of research I've done on on the name

Nick VinZant 35:53

you have not done any research on Euclidean geometry,

John Shull 35:57

no on the name Euclid and it led me to, you know, the philosopher, mathematician, Euclid, obviously.

Nick VinZant 36:04

Okay,

John Shull 36:06

yeah, I don't know anything about I took one math class in college, and it was called basic math. Basic Mathematics, okay,

Speaker 1 36:14

basic

Nick VinZant 36:14

math. I never got past basic math. I mean, in college, once you get to basic math, it's not like, it's five plus five in college. Like, what is this? Is how you divide six divided by two. It's a little bit

Speaker 1 36:28

I

John Shull 36:28

also realized I had to get my college transcripts for a for a job that I'm that I'm going for, and I haven't done that in 20 years. And thought I was a way better student in college than I was. That was, that was kind of an eye opener. When I looked at my college transcripts and saw what my final GPA was after four years.

Nick VinZant 36:51

What

Speaker 1 36:51

was it?

John Shull 36:53

I was a 3.2

Nick VinZant 36:55

that's pretty good. What's wrong with a 3.2 that's a B.

John Shull 36:59

I thought I was like, at a three seven, I thought I graduated with honors. Apparently I didn't, because that's not an honor graduation.

Nick VinZant 37:08

I still have a recurring dream that one day it's going to be found out that I didn't actually graduate college, because whenever I looked at my credits, I remember this from a long time ago. Is like, is this all add up and I never, I've still feel like, someday they're gonna come back and be like, You know what? You didn't actually

Speaker 1 37:25

graduate.

John Shull 37:28

Me, what's it gonna matter? I mean, you've already, you've been a professional for what, 25 years now, like, What's it matter?

Nick VinZant 37:34

First of all, no. Like, no, almost not even 20 years. So check your tone there. Euclid go back to play geometry.

John Shull 37:46

Yeah. Well, like I said, I don't, I mean, I know basic math, but that's it. Yeah. Anyways, you should do that. We should compare college transcripts. People would really love that. See the bullshit we took, like I took yoga for two years.

Nick VinZant 38:01

You took yoga for two years? Oh, god, yeah. I mean, I took, like, first of all, I went to K State, one of the greatest history universities in the entire world, and graduated with a history degree. But I'm not going to go ahead and throw those as I'm sitting here with the University of Washington

John Shull 38:17

sweatshirt. That's okay, it's where you live.

Nick VinZant 38:20

Yeah, exactly.

John Shull 38:22

I'm wearing a Detroit Lions sweater, so,

Nick VinZant 38:25

wow, God, see that's

Speaker 1 38:28

brought

John Shull 38:28

the room down there, huh?

Nick VinZant 38:30

Yeah. I mean, you guys said that we've gone over this before. This is why you're not a champion. This is why the city of Detroit is not a champion. Is because you guys tolerate crap. You tolerate losing other places. Don't tolerate it, right? Like, if I had a team that hasn't been to playoffs and won a game, and I don't know what, six centuries since the game was invented, if I had lived in a city that hadn't won any championships and has a long history of choking in just about every single sport that they play in, I would not support those teams anyway. I would demand better. And that's what you guys aren't doing. Like, should you buy that sweatshirt? Absolutely not. You're supporting them. Like, why would they want to do well, when you're just going to come up and like, Hey, here's my $100 give me the sweatshirt. You're part of the problem. You're part of the problem. Demand better.

John Shull 39:20

Are you done?

Nick VinZant 39:21

Don't think that. I won't mention that you canceled soccer practice just because it was raining. A little bit. Was a little rain? No, get out. The world doesn't stop

John Shull 39:32

speak. The National Basketball Association team, the Detroit Pistons are in the second round of the playoffs. Okay.

Nick VinZant 39:39

Wow,

John Shull 39:40

does Seattle have a team? No, it got taken. It went to Oklahoma City.

Nick VinZant 39:44

And you know why? Because we said, You know what, we're not worried about basketball. We want to win at football. And ever since we lost the Seattle SuperSonics, which are probably coming back in the next couple of years, we've won multiple Super Bowls. How many Super Bowls Have you been to? Oh. Okay,

John Shull 40:00

you know, you know the

Nick VinZant 40:01

exactly, because we

John Shull 40:02

demand, not excellent sport in America.

Nick VinZant 40:05

It's the only sport that matters, and you know it. You've got a Detroit Lions sweatshirt on there. Don't try to tackle. You know what? Guys though, we're doing really good with our badminton League. Great. Go far enough down the line, eventually you'll be able to win at something. Okay. Are you ready to move on? Because I think that there's no reason to discuss this anymore.

John Shull 40:26

Yeah. Can we just I'm, you know what? I'm gonna go to something that makes me happy, and you know what that is, because you know what time it is.

Nick VinZant 40:34

Oh, is it candle of the month?

John Shull 40:37

Yeah, it's the first episode of the month.

Nick VinZant 40:40

I forgot. I forgot. Okay, so let me do the thing. It's time the outlaw candle connoisseur, trademark, pending Rides Again, candle of the month.

John Shull 40:57

I got a great one. I mean, this one is, this might be top three, actually, of all time.

Nick VinZant 41:04

Okay, okay, my only problem with you saying that is, when have you ever come forward and be like, You know what? I got some crap to the candle of the month is terrible. It's like when people say I'm gonna be honest with you. Were you lying to me the whole time before?

John Shull 41:18

Yeah, you know what? I don't say that anymore, because years ago, you called me out for it, and now I'm too conscious to say it. I don't ever say that anymore.

Nick VinZant 41:27

You're welcome.

Speaker 1 41:27

What

John Shull 41:28

am I supposed to say then, hey, this candle kind of sucks, but maybe you should buy it or check it out.

Nick VinZant 41:35

No, what you're supposed to do is put in enough effort to candle of the month so that you're not putting forward anything that could be lower value. You should scour the Earth to find the very best candles. There should be nothing but the best candle,

John Shull 41:49

don't you don't know what's going on in the candle forums. Okay, don't come at me. I don't know what's

Nick VinZant 41:55

going on in the candle world, right?

John Shull 41:57

Okay? Because that's the phrase. That's the phrase of the last month has been candle integrity. Okay?

Nick VinZant 42:05

What is God? What? What is candle integrity? Is there some kind of controversy that like, Oh, God, the wax isn't good. This year they're importing wax from Azerbaijan, and it's not as good as the wax that we usually get, I don't know even, let's

John Shull 42:24

just say that there are some doomsdayers on these forums, like there are everywhere. And obviously, given the events that are occurring around the world and everywhere, there's some people who are, you know, questioning other candle companies, connoisseurs Wow, about where they do get their products from, or who they sell to, or, you know, just like any business, some of the smaller mom and pop Shop candle companies are selling off to larger companies. And Jen, I forget the rest of her screen name, But Jen, something, wrote this whole novel on candle integrity. Okay, have some candle integrity. Nick,

Nick VinZant 43:16

I cannot, I cannot believe that this exists. I just cannot believe that. Number one, this exists. Number two, people are actively, like, really, getting kind of motivated by this and having real conversations about candle integrity. And number three, that you're reading it. And number four, that you know the person's screen name and memorize you didn't write it down. I know I'd see you didn't look down to see what it was. You just know what it is. Yeah, she

Speaker 1 43:39

a problem. Is she a problem?

Nick VinZant 43:41

Is she a problem? Is she a problem? Causer in the candle form? Oh yeah,

John Shull 43:45

no,

Speaker 1 43:47

oh

John Shull 43:47

no. But she's, she's not, not that this truly matters. But she's not American either. She's great. She's British. So the Brits probably really fiery.

Nick VinZant 44:01

This is an international candle connoisseur discussion then, huh? The international community is weighing in on the state of candle integrity. All right. Oh, wow.

John Shull 44:12

I mean, let's just say that her novel might have even included a candle company's boat being stuck in the Strait of Hormuz, so I don't think that's accurate, but I don't know.

Nick VinZant 44:25

When you read it, did you tell your wife about it? Like, did you see this post in the candle forum and be like, Honey, guess what's happening in the candle forums today? Did you say something? Did you like, I gotta tell somebody.

John Shull 44:40

I did say something just about, you know, and forgive me, don't take this the wrong way. Everybody out there I did might have called her crazy. And I mean, this thing had to have been 1500 words. I mean, it was long she and she went off and off.

Nick VinZant 45:00

Did you read the whole thing?

John Shull 45:03

If I did, will you think less of me?

Nick VinZant 45:05

Oh, I mean, it'd be hard to at this point.

John Shull 45:09

That's fair. Yes, I did.

Nick VinZant 45:12

Okay. Did you ever refer back to other parts of the diatribe? Did you like read it and then refer back to it later? Or did you just read it and be like, that's done with that.

John Shull 45:23

I mean, I did Google candle, you know, candle ship straight over, straight up, her moves to see if she was correct. But I couldn't find any, obviously. So

Nick VinZant 45:36

probably handle conspiracy. Series are starting

John Shull 45:40

anyways,

Nick VinZant 45:40

okay,

John Shull 45:41

people don't care about this, or maybe they do. Candle the month, this month is from Goose Creek. It is a three wick candle, because that's all we do here on my reviews. And it's the maple butter three wick candle, and it's, it looks very cool, burns for a while. You're obviously it's maple butter, so you're gonna get spiced vanilla, warm maple syrup, melted butter. It's like having a pancake on a spring day before the for the temps get too hot, you know, having a nice breakfast before you go work out on your farm or something, you know.

Nick VinZant 46:14

Okay, so, wow.

John Shull 46:17

Butter, three wick candle checked right before we came on here, it's on sale right now, it has almost 3600 star or star reviews, which is pretty good for one candle. So check it

Nick VinZant 46:31

out and

John Shull 46:31

worth your time.

Nick VinZant 46:32

Do you write candle reviews?

John Shull 46:36

Oh, yes, but not, not, not the way that you think I'm writing a

Nick VinZant 46:45

different language. Like, what do you write it in? Like,

John Shull 46:48

no,

Speaker 1 46:49

we know,

John Shull 46:49

like, I kind of, like a, like, a grading system, and I'll, like, you know, like, scent, physical, you know, appearance, blah, blah, blah. And then I'll just put numbers, and that's the way that I rate. So,

Nick VinZant 47:02

okay, alright,

John Shull 47:03

anyway,

Nick VinZant 47:03

cool. This is the, this is the part of the man, what is going on over here. This is the part of the show when John is John is talking about the candle connoisseur, that I would like to remind people that he has, in fact, had sex with a woman at least twice possibly more,

John Shull 47:22

yeah, well, maybe never know, up there. All right. You ready for the top five?

Nick VinZant 47:28

Yep, so our top five is top five summer foods, hydrate. Jesus,

John Shull 47:33

what

Nick VinZant 47:36

God like? Take a breath.

John Shull 47:38

We've got a physical coming up. I'm trying to hydrate.

Nick VinZant 47:41

It's, you know what? Look you have a physical coming up. Okay, that's good that you're trying to change your health and you're trying to be a healthier person. But like trying to get healthy a day before it is not going to change it. You just can't drink like, five cups of water. Think you're going to walk in there and be like, Great, perfect, perfect test results, all because of that five glasses of water I had right before I took the test.

John Shull 48:04

I think, you know, it doesn't matter. Are you a are you a tap water guy or a filtered water guy?

Nick VinZant 48:12

I may drink whatever is in front of me. Guy, I don't care, like, like, where it's coming from. Like, I drank out of a hose this morning. I don't have any problem with it. If you're not drinking out of a hose, that's why you've got to go to the doctor and get all these physicals and get all these tests while I'm out there just drinking hose water, because hose water will make you

John Shull 48:34

strong. I don't know if anyone else would care, and maybe you can tell me we're done recording. I'm just curious to know why you were drinking out of a hose. Oh,

Nick VinZant 48:43

because I was doing something outside, and I was thirsty, and there was the hose right there, and I was like, You know what? I could go inside and get me a cup of water that I'm going to have to wash out later, or I could just drink out of this hose.

John Shull 48:57

It's just, I don't recall the last time I heard someone go or say to me, you know, I drink out of the hose this morning. So,

Nick VinZant 49:06

right, there was nothing wrong with it. Drink out. Get you some hose water. Man, need a little bit of, you know what? Something I don't know what's

John Shull 49:14

No. Man, you okay? You, do you? Man,

Nick VinZant 49:17

did I already say what our top five is? Top five summer foods, yeah. Okay, so our top five is top five summer foods to number five.

John Shull 49:27

So we kind of mentioned earlier, but my number five is simple. It's just good old, crispy cold watermelon.

Nick VinZant 49:36

That should be way higher. I think that that should be way higher on the list.

John Shull 49:41

I don't know. My list is pretty good,

Nick VinZant 49:43

a fresh prosciutto mixed with some kind of Arabian greens, cooked souffle. I don't know. I don't even know. I don't even know the words to make fun of you. My number five is shaved ice. I think, okay, shaved ice is criminally underrated in how good shaved ice is. You sleep on it, but it's delicious.

John Shull 50:13

Shaved ice is good. I do think it's actually, I said this to my kids the other day. I think it's overrated, but that's

Nick VinZant 50:20

my haven't had really good shape. You haven't had really good shaved ice, though, if you have really good shaved ice, it will completely change your opinion on shaved ice. It'll raise it several notches from whatever you have. You got to get really good stuff, not like stuff you get at the carnival,

John Shull 50:37

not the Kona ice truck that's at soccer games on Saturday and Sundays. Oh,

Speaker 1 50:42

I'm

Nick VinZant 50:42

surprised you even went. It wasn't a little too hot outside, wasn't a little rainy outside, oh, the wind was blowing too hard. Oh, guys, it's over five mile an hour. It's gusting today. Cancel the game.

John Shull 50:56

Sorry. Are you done? My number four is pasta salad.

Nick VinZant 51:01

Oh, I'm against any kind of salads that aren't just salad, macaroni salad, pasta salad, any kind of salads that isn't salad, I'm again it.

John Shull 51:13

I mean, I they're fantastic. And if they're cold, like, Oh, it's so good, fantastic. Summer Food, pasta salad.

Nick VinZant 51:23

Macaroni salad, because I just don't really know what I'm eating. Like, I don't know really what's in that.

John Shull 51:31

Why would you bother to ask or look at the ingredients?

Nick VinZant 51:35

Because, like, number one, I don't think that people really know what's in it. Half the time. I just don't trust it. I don't trust I don't trust any kind of pasta, macaroni salads. I don't trust them. I don't know what's in there. It just looks like goop. Somebody could have easily spit in that, and you wouldn't even know

John Shull 51:55

who traumatized you as a child.

Speaker 1 51:59

It

Nick VinZant 51:59

just looks like you don't know what somebody did to that. And I'm not going to go out just like some barbecue and just see food that I don't know what's in there and trust that everybody's just like, not been messing with that. I don't trust him. I don't trust salads. All

John Shull 52:15

right, my number four is core. My

Nick VinZant 52:17

number four is corn on the cob.

John Shull 52:21

Okay, that's, that's one of the few ones I put on my honorable mention. I like corn on the cob. I do, but I feel like you can eat that all year round,

Nick VinZant 52:30

yeah, but I, I would, I think that there's a little something special about it. In summer. Do you cut it off the cob? Are you okay just to eat it with your hands? Can you do that? Or is it a little too warm for you? If it's above room temperature, like, Oh, it's too hot. Does anyone have any corn on the cob holders? Do you own corn on the cob holders? I bet you do.

John Shull 52:50

I was gonna say I don't have to worry about burning my hands because I use corn on the cob holders.

Nick VinZant 52:57

Do you have multiple different kinds of corn on the

Speaker 1 53:00

cob

Nick VinZant 53:00

holders? Do you have more than the necessary amount of corn on the cob holders?

John Shull 53:06

I think I have eight. They have eight pairs

Nick VinZant 53:10

you. So you do because you have four people in your family, you only need four pairs, just two, two forks together. You're wasting money over there. Man, get two forks.

John Shull 53:23

All right,

Nick VinZant 53:23

one fork,

John Shull 53:26

I'm cutting this off. My number three are hot dogs.

Nick VinZant 53:30

Oh, what are you gonna have way up at the top? Because the stuff that I think is the best you have kind of low. I think I certainly agree with hot dogs and watermelon. I just don't agree with the pricing.

Speaker 1 53:41

So, I

John Shull 53:42

mean, I I'd be surprised if my number one isn't your number one. I feel like number one is unanimous this week, but apparently not so.

Nick VinZant 53:52

Oh no, no, no. My number three is just various desserts that you don't usually think of, like jello, pudding, popsicles, summertime desserts, is how I would categorize it, stuff that you're not going to have. You're not generally eating a lot of popsicles in the wintertime. It's a summertime.

John Shull 54:12

My number two was similar, like, I put banana pudding, but, like, it's really any cold desserts, like anything that is cold as my number two desserty

Nick VinZant 54:25

wise, cold summertime desserts, my number two is hot dogs. There's nothing about a hot dog in summer. It's better.

John Shull 54:36

Nothing like having a little meat on a warm day to cool you down.

Nick VinZant 54:39

Man, once summertime hits, I can't get enough meat in my mouth. I'm just shoving meat. All kinds of meat. Doesn't matter what kind it is. I'm just shoving meat my mouth. Bigger the better.

John Shull 54:51

I agree. Blood sausage, sausage links, anything, any kind of sausage, hot dogs. Shove it right in.

Nick VinZant 55:00

Or any kind of stuff right there. Like, I don't sometimes, like, I'll take way, you know, I'll take a lot. I'll take a lot. I'll take a lot of my mouth. Yeah, right,

John Shull 55:09

I, I've, I've seen it. It's, yeah, you, you can put down a dog, that's for sure,

Speaker 1 55:13

you

Nick VinZant 55:13

know. And if they've got some good toppings on it, I'm not afraid to lick it. I'm not afraid to take a nice, long lick, and then really put it down there.

John Shull 55:29

The hot dog. It's better, yeah,

Speaker 1 55:33

still

Nick VinZant 55:33

ridiculous to me. This is another thing that just brings up your inefficiencies, the fact that you have to go up and down stairs to get all your various appliances that you have like, Oh, I'm gonna cook hot dogs. Time to go downstairs and bring this back up.

John Shull 55:46

Don't listen. Don't you talk bad about the hot dog roller.

Nick VinZant 55:52

You can cook hot dogs like so many other ways. There's no way that you're going to tell me that the hot dog roller somehow makes an actual difference that you could do a blind taste test of foods that were cooked either boiling the hot dogs, microwaving the hot dogs, grilling the hot dogs, toaster oven, the hot dogs, deep fry, the hot dogs versus the hot dog roller. To be like, yep, this one, that's the best, because it's been on a hot dog roller, and I can tell,

John Shull 56:19

yeah, I think I could, I for sure, could discern a hot dog, rolled hot dog, from a boiled hot dog 100%

Nick VinZant 56:30

without the skin, if they cut it so that, like the skin wasn't on it, and you were just tasting the meat, you think you could still tell like that's been cooked on a hot dog roller.

John Shull 56:42

I mean, I don't know maybe. I mean, it's like cutting oranges here, all right, my number one is ice cream.

Nick VinZant 56:53

Oh, I can't, I can't agree with that at all. I wouldn't even put that on my honorable mention.

John Shull 57:01

That's the number one summer food. Like it's a hot day, what do you want? You want to go have some ice cream?

Nick VinZant 57:08

Oh, but I just think that ice cream is good all year round. Like it's always good, like it's never too cold and it's never too cold for ice cream. Have you ever been offered ice cream, even if it was, like, negative 40 degrees outside, and be like, No, you know, like, No, you know, it's too cold for

Speaker 1 57:24

ice cream.

John Shull 57:26

I mean, I've never been offered it when it's that cold, but, yeah, we don't, we don't eat a lot of ice cream in my house, definitely not in the winter.

Nick VinZant 57:33

Okay, I guess that's weird. I mean, to me, some like, ice cream is just, yeah, it's a year round thing. I can't agree with you on that one. My number one is watermelon. I would actually put all the summer fruits really high up on the list, blueberries, strawberries, cantaloupe, all those other ones. But watermelon is, I think, the best summer food. It's just it is this staple of summer.

John Shull 57:56

Didn't you once do a whole episode where you were basically just talking about you are the best, like, you can hand pick the best watermelon out of the bunch.

Nick VinZant 58:05

Yes, I would say my one true skill in life is picking out a watermelon. Like I know how to pick out a really good watermelon. My wife gets a watermelon. Comes home, I look at it, and just, Oh, why would you get that one

John Shull 58:23

that's Crusher dreams.

Nick VinZant 58:26

She's not even allowed to pick them out for us. Like, if we're getting watermelon, she's not allowed to pick and I've tried to teach her, you probably knock and think that's the way to do it, don't you? You're probably like, Oh, that's a good one.

John Shull 58:40

I actually, I don't even knock I just usually pick one up and put in my shopping basket.

Nick VinZant 58:47

You just grab any watermelon that you see and think, like, that's good enough. As much of a food snob as you are, you're just going to take a look at watermelon where you have all of these different choices, and you can clearly see the differences between the fruits. And you're just going to be going like, Oh, that one's closest. I'll grab

Speaker 1 59:00

that one. You

John Shull 59:01

Ma'am, you're still going for size. So if I see like a medium sized watermelon that I know will feed my family, like I usually go, I usually go for size. Then whatever tricks you're you do,

Nick VinZant 59:17

well you look to see the uniform you want a fairly uniform roundness, except for on the bottom, where you want to see a little bit of yellow, where the watermelon has been laying on the ground. You want it to be green. You want that circular shape, like I mentioned. And then you're going to go ahead and for a knock. Now you don't you want it to be hollow, but you don't want it to sound like thick, hollow. You want it to sound like, oh, that's just a hollow watermelon. Not that it just has a thick rind, that it's just straight up hollow, and then you go with it, but you need to look for, like the yellowness on the bottom, and you want the bottom to be a little bit flat. People just knock and move on. Like, that's not how you do that.

John Shull 59:57

So just putting this out there, that. I think you need to start your own watermelon forum. I

Nick VinZant 1:00:05

don't think that I'm going to go on watermelon. I'm certainly not going to read a 1500 page or 1500 word rant about candles. Do you have anything else in your honorable mention? I have things to

Speaker 1 1:00:17

do

John Shull 1:00:18

not that I haven't mentioned already. No,

Nick VinZant 1:00:22

okay, well, let's just go ahead and stop it then, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless, I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best summer foods. I just can't see ice cream, because ice cream is just always good. It's not specifically summer. Watermelon, to me, is specifically summer.

How to Tell if Someone is Lying with Lie Detection Researcher Vincent Denault

How can you tell if someone is lying? Criminology Professor and Lie Detection Researcher Vincent Denault says that while lies are complicated, there's one simple way to get to the truth.

We talk signs someone is lying, what makes someone appear credible and if we are living in the age of lies.

Then, in the Pointless part of the show, it's Michael Jordan and Patrick Stewart vs. Vin Diesel and the Rock as we countdown the Top 5 Bald Celebrities.

00:00 Introducing Vincent Denault

01:11: How Good are We at Spotting Liars

02:51 Signs Someone is Lying

05:52 The Simple Way to Find Out the Truth

06:49 Do Lie Detectors Work

08:42 Are We Living in the Age of Lies

09:50 Pointless

24:19 The Top 5 Bald Celebrities

⁠Contact the Show⁠

⁠Vincent Denault Website⁠

⁠Vincent Denault LinkedIn

Interview with Lie Detection Researcher Vincent Denault

Nick VinZant 0:12

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode lie detection and bald celebrities,

Vincent Denault 0:22

a simple fact that is documented for decades now. There is no sign similar to Pinocchio's notes, but let's think about courts where people will lose their liberty. They might even lose their life because they testified in a way that is different from what would have been expected. What my feeling is that we're more surrounded by bullshit.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps out the show. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he studies how you can tell if someone is lying. This is lie detection researcher Vincent Denault. How good are we at telling if somebody is lying?

Vincent Denault 1:13

Pretty bad. Often, when you make truth lie judgment, we use beliefs that are erroneous. So you might think, for example, that someone is lying because the person is nervous. You might think that someone is lying because the person hesitate. Well, the reality is that hesitation or being nervous or looking away are not good sign of lies. If

Nick VinZant 1:40

we're pretty bad at telling if somebody is lying, do we usually think that people are lying more than they are, or do we assume that they're telling the truth more than we are?

Vincent Denault 1:50

Essentially, we have a shrewd bias, so we generally think that people are honest, and actually people are most of the time honest.

Nick VinZant 2:01

Is it subjective in the sense that if I think someone is lying before they even speak, whatever comes out of their mouth, I'm going to assume is a lie, versus if I think somebody is going to tell the truth before they even speak, then I will probably believe what they say, regardless of what they're actually saying. In either circumstance,

Vincent Denault 2:22

that's exactly what might be happening when you're in such a situation. Essentially, you think that someone is lying without the person even speaking, and then the person starts speaking, and you see that the person is hesitant, nervous. You know, similar behavior. These are, you know, if you're trying to really find the truth, you need to come with an open mind, because otherwise you might subject to be subject to the confirmation bias. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 2:51

What are some like? What in your research? What would you say are signs that someone is lying?

Vincent Denault 2:56

A simple fact that is documented for decades now, there is no sign similar to Pinocchio's nose that doesn't exist. There is really not a sign that is always there when someone is telling the truth or never there when someone is telling a lie and vice versa. These are beliefs that dates back from a long, long time ago, but really we behave in different ways, from one person to another, but also from one setting to another.

Nick VinZant 3:29

I know you work a lot with the court system. Are there things that make somebody more credible than someone else? Like, what makes me I'm gonna believe this person, not going to believe that person.

Vincent Denault 3:44

What I've seen throughout the studies that I've done is that witness, they are credible when they testify in a way that is expected from them.

Nick VinZant 3:55

Oh, yeah, like any deviation from what I expect, I would think that you're lying, like like, if I expect a quick answer and you take a while, like, what time did you get to the store? That's a simple question. If you take a like, 20 seconds to answer, I got there at 10 o'clock, I would think that you were lying. Even if you just take a while to answer the question naturally,

Vincent Denault 4:19

and what you're saying there is really a wonder, not wonderful, but it's really a good illustration of how vulnerable people can be affected by those stereotypes or by these expectations that the court had, or that we have on a daily basis. But let's think about courts where people will lose their liberty, they might even lose their life, because they testified in a way that is different from what would have been expected.

Nick VinZant 4:51

I so I used to be a news reporter, and I remember covering this one court case, and the guy was ultimately convicted, and I think that he got a significant amount of time.

Nick VinZant 5:00

It

Nick VinZant 5:00

basically in a he said, situate. He Said, She Said, situation. And I was actually pretty sure that he was telling the truth. He just wasn't answering things in the way that I think that people expected him to. Was like, I think he's actually telling the truth.

Vincent Denault 5:16

And also, the important thing is that those beliefs Iranians beliefs can affect both the person that is accused, but also a victim. You know, a victim would testify in a way that goes against the expectations of the courts or jurors. So these beliefs, or these stereotypes can, more generally, can affect the outcome of trials, and the consequences can be both for the victim and the accused. So that's one thing.

Nick VinZant 5:52

So how do we I guess, if there isn't any kind of overt sign that somebody is lying, how do we get past those biases and find out, okay, is this person really telling the truth?

Vincent Denault 6:06

What research shows is that the best way to get to the truth is actually to make the people in front of you feel good, you know, to establish a rapport, show empathy, show that the person is not being judged. Ask open ended questions so that you don't contaminate or lead the person to say something that might be erroneous. So you really need, like, if you want, if you really want to get to the truth, I would say that one of the important stuff is to make the person feel that they can say the truth.

Nick VinZant 6:48

What

Nick VinZant 6:49

do you think of lie detectors?

Vincent Denault 6:51

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so I'm not convinced by many of the claims that I hear about that there are research, you know, in very specific setting with specific questions asked that do show good results. But then what happened when you study something can be entirely different on how that machine is used in practice, and some of the claims that I hear you know more in the public news and and I'm really not convinced these are extraordinary claims, and there's no extraordinary evidence. The

Nick VinZant 7:40

only one that I'm familiar with is like the polygraph, right? Like, are there other supposed forms of lie detection that people

Nick VinZant 7:47

use?

Vincent Denault 7:48

Well, there's, there's many, and there will likely be even more. Now with those, you know, the I sorry, the i around, AI, I mean, I've seen that some companies are trying to sell software to put in glasses to know when someone is lying or telling the truth based on how people answer and how people behave. These are quite extraordinary claims, and even more extraordinary when you know the state of research about nonverbal behavior and lie detection, I mean, this is another level of extraordinary claims, I would say so. And just, I'll just, I'll just come back to that this idea of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Nick VinZant 8:42

Between social media, where you can't really seem to tell exactly what the truth is, politicians and PR spin and all that stuff. Do you feel like we're more surrounded by lies?

Vincent Denault 8:58

I don't have data for that, but I do feel, and that's that's the reality, that what my feeling is that we're more surrounded by bullshit. So when people just don't care about the truth or the lie and just say stuff because they want to get the attention, they want to get the votes, they want to get the clicks, that's not necessarily lying. They just don't care about the truth or the lie. They say stuff to get you know, the attention.

Nick VinZant 9:28

I want to thank vinzen so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. What percent of people immediately give you a bad vibe?

John Shull 9:54

20% so one out of every five probably,

Nick VinZant 9:58

I think that's kind of high.

John Shull 10:01

I would agree with you, but I always have my little antenna out. Man, I'm always like this person trying to steal something. Are they going to want to talk to me or sell me something?

Nick VinZant 10:11

I think it's probably really lower than what you initially think. So I would put mine at probably only five to 10% it's fairly rare for me to just be like, Oh, that person is not someone that you can trust. Maybe

John Shull 10:27

20% is a little high. I'll lower it to 17% How about that?

Nick VinZant 10:32

Okay, I do feel like it should be very specific. My exact number would be 7.8% of people.

John Shull 10:39

I will go 16.3% then,

Nick VinZant 10:43

because I can only think of one guy in my immediate neighborhood that as soon as I saw him, I thought, Oh, that guy's odd. He's doing something like eventually, the cops are going to be at his house, for some reason, and I'm going to be talking in a documentary about

John Shull 11:01

him. I'm just more cautious than anything. I would say

Nick VinZant 11:05

I think that there's a big difference between not liking somebody, and you can get that vibe really quickly, which I would put around the 10 to 25% range, as opposed to just like, oh, that person is somebody I need to watch out for. I feel like that's really pretty rare. When you get right down to it, there may be people who are different or odd or you don't like but I don't think there's a lot of people that are out there that just like, Oh, you got to watch out for them, like they are a danger to you or your family's safety in one way or another. They're going to cause problems for you.

John Shull 11:40

You think anyone's ever thought that about you?

Nick VinZant 11:43

I wonder, I really wonder. I would have always wanted to hear the honest truth from somebody who just does not like me, with without really a reason, like, I couldn't pinpoint it if somebody who just said, like, I just don't like that guy, or I think that guy is so weird, I would love to hear from somebody, like, why they thought that. Like, Oh, what about it? Like, what? What is it that made you think that I was such a weirdo? Do you think people have felt that way about you?

John Shull 12:14

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if, like, I give off the creeper vibe, but I can definitely, when I was younger, I gave off, like, the overbearing, like I was the guy at clubs and bars. You know I was, you saw me and you knew a tornado was coming, so I wasn't like the creeper, but, like, I could see, back in the day, people looking at me and being like that, that guy get it, can really do some damage tonight, probably to himself only, but

Nick VinZant 12:42

didn't you wear jingo jeans and eyeliner? Did you wear eyeliner? Did you you nothing wrong with guys wear an eyeliner. That's what you want to do. I'm laughing at John wearing eyeliner.

John Shull 13:03

It was the mid 90s, okay, and it was midnight.

Speaker 1 13:07

I was

Nick VinZant 13:07

alive in the midline 90s. Don't use that. Don't use the time as an excuse, because there are plenty of people who are not

Nick VinZant 13:12

doing

John Shull 13:13

it. I was just having this conversation like it was okay. I mean, Marilyn, I mean, it's still okay, by the way. But for the purpose of this, you know, Marilyn Manson, corn, Limp Biscuit, like you had all these emerging alternative musicians and like, that's just, you know, Power Man, 5000 like all So, yeah, I had frosted tips. I wore Ginko jeans. I might have dabbled on the eyeliner once or twice, overused hairspray for sure.

Nick VinZant 13:43

Wow, I just couldn't imagine putting eyeliner on. I couldn't imagine it doing it because that, like, there's no going back. That is crossing the Rubicon. You can't just do that as like, you know what? Today I'm going to wear eyeliner like you have crossed over into a division that you have not been in before, and there is no going back.

John Shull 14:07

I will save the story. But it was one time, and I recall the story perfectly. So it was, yeah, yeah. It is what it is. I don't know, yeah, I don't know how we got on that, but yes,

Nick VinZant 14:19

so

John Shull 14:21

Nope, we were just in my buddy's basement listening to music, and thought, man, like, let's, let's, let's put some makeup and sing and dance. And you know, it sounds weirder than it was, okay.

Nick VinZant 14:35

Oh yeah, it's not going well. The explanation is much worse. You should have left this, this kid's Okay,

John Shull 14:43

all

Nick VinZant 14:44

right,

John Shull 14:46

I will say, as an adult, you know, I wore skinny jeans in Orlando once, and that was probably one of the most notable times where, like, I just could feel like people. Looking at me and immediately thinking I was like, That person, and then the bartender, like, made me go home to change, because we were in Orlando, and I walked whatever. That was pretty embarrassing.

Nick VinZant 15:11

They made you leave. It was offensive.

John Shull 15:15

Well, you

Nick VinZant 15:16

can't be a man your size wearing skinny jeans.

John Shull 15:19

Oh, no, never. I mean, once again, you can tell that I've gone through a lot of iterations of myself through life. Apparently,

Nick VinZant 15:29

I don't understand how you didn't back out putting them on and think like, because you tried them on, didn't you look in the dressing room mirror? And part of you thought, that's that, that's, that's, that's what the people want, one foot on the skin jeans. Looked in the mirror and thought, that's what the people are going to

Nick VinZant 15:45

want.

John Shull 15:46

What's funny is, I mean, I couldn't even fit my left leg into both legs now, but back then I actually, I got them buttoned up. The problem wasn't the waist, or really my legs, from what I remember. And there's been, there's three other people that could recount this story probably a lot better than I could, but it was the the mid the midsection, the private parts, that were the issue.

Nick VinZant 16:08

Oh, okay, you're trying to turn it around, right? Oh, it was just so big I couldn't have these cine genes, your FUPA that you probably have

John Shull 16:17

no there was no, there was no FUPA then which, by the way, you can't say anything. You can't talk shit. To me, I won a medal over the weekend running a 5k Thank you very much. And it wasn't a medal that they gave out to everybody. Okay, so thank you. I am old enough apparently that just finishing slow gets you a medal, and I'm very proud of that.

Nick VinZant 16:39

So just finished, you have reached the age where simply finishing the act of moving three and a half miles, or, I think it's 3.1 miles in a 5k is enough to get you a medal.

John Shull 16:49

I'm probably not going to go pick it up, because that's unfortunately, you know, I left before the medal ceremony, because I'm like, There's no way I want anything, right? Like, you know, I mean, I finished, and I ran decently for for me, but like, I was nowhere near anything, not like that bastard, or those bastards that ran a sub two hour marathon over the weekend. Jesus, Christ almighty.

Nick VinZant 17:16

I don't want to turn into this the running conversation podcast, but I do not understand how that is physically possible. To me, that is probably the greatest physical feat that humans are capable of. The idea that you can average running at 13 to 14 miles an hour for two hours is insane. Like I have no idea how someone could do that. None

John Shull 17:42

i I'm speechless. And I, there was three, there was three men that broke the record. They all did it. It's just, it's crazy. I What's the longest you think you could sprint? Because for us, it would be a sprint, right at 13 miles an hour for

Nick VinZant 18:00

it.

Nick VinZant 18:01

That would not be a sprint for me, but that would be a pretty significant job, like I would be going seven and probably close to 75% to go 13 or 14 miles an hour at my age, and I not a mile, certainly not a mile. Yeah, maybe once around the track, maybe 200 meters. I could keep that up, maybe, maybe, maybe 400 No, maybe, okay, I could probably do that, keep up a 75% of top speed pace, maybe for two laps around a track. And that's being really generous. Maybe, maybe,

John Shull 18:41

I mean, do you run distance? Have you done that recently? Because that's

Nick VinZant 18:45

No, I'm just

Nick VinZant 18:45

lifting. I'm straight lifting,

John Shull 18:47

taking the Andro and the wegovy and just lifting,

Nick VinZant 18:51

just lifting, right? Not even just lifting. All I do is squats. I don't want to talk about working out anymore

John Shull 19:00

with you. I do it special?

Nick VinZant 19:02

One thing, if it looked like we worked out, it'd be different. Like, if we just looked like we really had some great insight into this opinion. But like, just

John Shull 19:12

what people want we look like average dudes. Like, that's, that's what, that's what 95% of the world is. It isn't these knuckleheads that have veins popping out of their nostrils, which is not fucking natural anyways.

Nick VinZant 19:27

Oh, I'm fascinated by the idea of people who are just really jacked, like bodybuilders, like their whole life is just about being jacked. That's the only thing that they do, is being jacked, because it's not just working out, it's your entire lifestyle. Like, Hey, you want to go out tonight, nope, got to be Jack tomorrow. Like, Hey, you want to go dinner, nope, got to be Jack tomorrow.

John Shull 19:54

I knew, I guess I could call him a friend, but he went into Mr. Michigan and. And he would eat, like, 6000 calories a day, and it was all chicken breast and rice. And I was like, That doesn't even sound good. Man like have a chocolate milk

Nick VinZant 20:10

your entire life has to be centered around nothing but being jacked

John Shull 20:16

crazy.

Nick VinZant 20:17

So I polled the audience, 48% of people say zero to 10. 26% of people say 10 to 25% of people give them. The 14% say 25 to 50. And 12% say 50 or more. I think that if you're over 25% that says more about you than it does about other people like you can't be creeped out by more than 25% of people. If you are, then you need to, you need to change either where you're living or what you're doing. Like that's you can't be creeped out by one out of every four people.

John Shull 20:53

Let's give some shout outs here, active social week. So we're going to start with Jackson shields. And Jackson is j, x, t, y, N, kind of dig that

Nick VinZant 21:04

that's different. I haven't heard that one

John Shull 21:07

summer. Hansen, Charlie Anderson, Ella Cobb, Raphael, Harvey, Nicole, Chen Tatum, Morton, Roland, Kramer, Kenzie reed in Wilder moody, hmm,

Nick VinZant 21:25

I don't know. I don't mind the name Wilder. Like, that's not a terrible name to be named Wilder, but your last name is really going to set the tone for how that goes. Like Wilder, moody is not the best combination. I don't think you want moody next to Wilder, but if it was like Wilder Smith, okay,

John Shull 21:46

say Oh, all right, there it is. You know, I think the dad podcast would be amazing.

Nick VinZant 21:52

No one wants to listen to people talk about their kids. I don't care about other people's kids. I care about my kids. I don't want to hear stories about anybody else's kids. I don't want to hear any stories about you. Any stories about your pet. I care about my kids and my pet, and I want to talk about my kids and my pet, and I don't care about another people's kids or their pets. I don't like you. Don't want to hear about it. Are you really listening like, hey, you know what? Man, hey, look, Riley did really well in futsal today. You want to know about

John Shull 22:18

that care? Of course, I care because I care

Nick VinZant 22:20

about you don't

Nick VinZant 22:21

know. You don't,

Nick VinZant 22:22

yeah, nobody

Nick VinZant 22:23

wants to hear about that stuff. Nobody wants to hear about other people's kids.

John Shull 22:27

I might even go tell my wife now that you're that Riley did good at Futsal, you know, like, I don't

Nick VinZant 22:32

even know what futsal is.

John Shull 22:35

Not exactly. It's, is it? I'm gonna guess it's a smaller ball, and it's indoor, right? I think,

Nick VinZant 22:42

oh, I don't know what it is.

John Shull 22:44

Oh, you fucker. Okay, well, let me see now, if it's all it's,

Nick VinZant 22:47

I don't even know what it is. I don't even know what my own children are doing. So why would anybody else

John Shull 22:53

I'm gonna send you pictures of my children every day now, until you, until you just ignore me.

Nick VinZant 22:58

Fine. I know how to delete things.

John Shull 23:02

That's not, I just, I feel like that's just, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just, I don't know, as a friend, you know you have, like, a duty as a friend to just seem interested for a half second.

Nick VinZant 23:13

Oh, I feel the opposite, then also has to be true, and that you have a duty as a friend and not send me that kind of crap.

John Shull 23:20

I mean, to a certain

Nick VinZant 23:22

degree, if your kid wins the Nobel Prize, tell me about it. I'm interested your kid gets drafted. I'm interested your kid does a major accomplishment, fine, but I don't need to know that. Like, oh God, vote Timmy walked today. Oh, is this first steps? No, no. He's been walking for a long time. He just took one more step than he usually does, like, don't need to know. Don't need to know. Don't care. Don't need to

John Shull 23:48

know. I just think that everyone wants to tell people everything all the time, and I am fine with being an ear from time to time. That's all I'm saying.

Nick VinZant 23:58

Oh, I feel I'm the opposite.

Nick VinZant 24:00

I don't want

Nick VinZant 24:00

to tell people things, and I don't want people telling people telling me things unless it's something that I'm interested about. Like, how many people you think are weird?

John Shull 24:11

All right, let's just move on. We're already going into, like, minute 25 here, and I think our top five is actually a pretty good one this

Nick VinZant 24:18

time.

Nick VinZant 24:19

Oh, we're skipping right to the top five, okay, okay, okay, okay, so our top five is top five bald celebrities. Who's your number five?

John Shull 24:30

Well, this one, this was tough. This is a very tough list. Okay,

Nick VinZant 24:34

there's a lot of ball those.

John Shull 24:36

Yeah, my number five is more of a historical figure, celebrity, but you have to put them on the list. If he's not on your list, your list is void, in my opinion.

Nick VinZant 24:48

Okay,

John Shull 24:49

my number five is Gandhi.

Nick VinZant 24:53

Okay. I mean, yes, you're right. I don't know if you should if you're gonna go that route. I don't think Gandhi is number. Five. I mean, he's one of the most influential figures from that region of the world. I don't like if you're gonna go that way, fine, but he's not like, five, right? It's that'd be like, You know what? I'm gonna use somebody historical number five, Jesus. He knows Jesus should be higher than that if you're gonna go Jesus.

John Shull 25:21

I mean, he just needs to be on the list. So I sat in my five because, like you, I'm gonna put Samuel L Jackson at number one. So let's

Nick VinZant 25:30

go.

Nick VinZant 25:30

Samuel Jackson's no my number five is Patrick Stewart. He listened. He made being bald look good. He was the first bald man that I would say I was exposed to. And I thought, You know what? That's not so bad. Look at Patrick Stewart. Not only is he bald, but he rocks the kind of Friar Tuck looking thing. He lets you know that he's bald. Just keeps a hair there, just to let you know how much the rest of his hair looks good. The rest of his head looks

John Shull 26:04

good. He he made like you know, my honorable mention he did not make my top five.

Nick VinZant 26:10

Patrick Stewart should be higher on the balding list. Patrick Stewart makes being bald look good. Just had that extra hair there, just to let you know how much better he looked bald.

John Shull 26:23

My number four. Stanley Tucci,

Nick VinZant 26:26

okay, okay, I thought about him. He's in my honorable mention. He's not going to make my top five bald guy list.

John Shull 26:34

Okay, what's your number four?

Nick VinZant 26:36

The only musician I have on this list, pit bull. Pit Bull is easily the most famous bald musician. Maybe the guy from Smashing Pumpkins could be mentioned in that category. But pit bull, he is. He is Mr. Worldwide, for a reason.

Nick VinZant 26:57

Okay, you

Nick VinZant 26:59

got a problem with pit bull. And number four,

John Shull 27:03

I mean, as an artist and his international presence, no, but I don't know when I think of bald people. I mean, I don't know if he comes. He does. He definitely doesn't come to my mind.

Nick VinZant 27:16

So that's how, that's how pit bull is the only bald man that makes you forget that he's bald. Like, oh yeah, He is bald. But Mr. Worldwide doesn't have to worry about that, because he's got so much swagger, it doesn't even need hair. He doesn't need hair. That's why people says on this list,

John Shull 27:39

talking like you're, you know, buddies with them.

Nick VinZant 27:43

Why everybody's friends with him?

John Shull 27:47

Where am I at? My number three man this, it's so tough. I'm gonna go. Bruce Willis is my number three.

Nick VinZant 27:58

I have Bruce Willis a little bit higher. Think Bruce Willis should be a little bit higher on that list. My number three is Samuel Jackson.

John Shull 28:06

Okay, I don't, I actually don't have him on my list. He's on my honorable mention.

Nick VinZant 28:13

I think that he, you kind of forget that he's bald. A little bit like, oh yeah, He is bald. You forget Samuel Jackson is bald. Otherwise, you know, I could see why he would not be on the list. Like, oh yeah, he doesn't have any hair.

John Shull 28:30

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think of him as being bald. So my number two is a twofer. See what it did there, both from the wrestling sphere and it's the rock and stone cold, Steve Austin.

Nick VinZant 28:45

Stone Cold, Steve Austin, I would agree with the rock I do not envision is being bald, because he had hair at one point, and then he went bald. When I think of like the best bald celebrities, they've always been bald. And the rock had hair for a little while, then he went balding, and then he went bald. So I can't

John Shull 29:09

that is a weird transition, like the the inter balding phase. Even the rock struggled with that. I think he did some Disney movies and then learned what steroids fully were. Then became this global mega star, but,

Nick VinZant 29:23

oh

Nick VinZant 29:23

yeah, he's definitely somebody though that looked he looks better bald like, Oh, why did you have hair? You shouldn't have had hair. He should have went straight for the ball.

Nick VinZant 29:33

Yeah,

John Shull 29:34

he should not have probably ever had hair. Well, who's your number two?

Nick VinZant 29:40

My number two is Bruce Willis.

John Shull 29:43

Okay, move. Did we double up on number one? I wonder if we did.

Nick VinZant 29:49

Maybe. Who's your number one?

John Shull 29:53

Michael Jordan.

Nick VinZant 29:54

Michael Jordan,

John Shull 29:56

yeah, I mean,

Nick VinZant 29:57

yeah, Michael Jordan's most famous ball guy.

John Shull 30:00

I was gonna throw a kink and just try to piss you off and say Vin Diesel, but I couldn't even put him that high. So

Nick VinZant 30:06

I can't. When I looked at the list of bald celebrities, I can't think of, I wouldn't even put Vin Diesel in the top 10.

John Shull 30:14

Yeah, probably not. I mean, let's not, let's not take away what he's done. He I feel like Vin Diesel gets shit on, kind of like Nicolas Cage, like they both get shitted on a lot for being terrible actors. But like, they'll have left a mark. Like, even if it's not a mark that a lot of people respect, it's like Jim Carrey to me, right? Like, I think he's another actor that kind of gets shit on for not, like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't even know the word, but like, all three of those men have left legacies.

Nick VinZant 30:45

Vin Diesel was in The Fast and the Furious franchise, and that's kind of it. He's never really done anything else outside of that. Like, really, nobody really cared about that movie. He's like, Oh, go see Vin Diesel. Like, that's gonna be,

John Shull 31:01

I would argue that he's, I mean, it's, it's hard to argue, but I think people now know him more as the being, the voice of that tree thing, whatever that was out of Guardians of the Galaxy,

Nick VinZant 31:14

right? Groot. Groot, yeah. I think not only would I say that Michael Jordan, I think the thing, I think Michael Jordan has to be number one, because he made bald cool, like it wasn't cool to be bald until Jordan. And I don't remember a point where Jordan ever had hair, like LeBron held on too long, but he had hair at the beginning. Jordan, I don't remember ever having hair.

John Shull 31:43

No, Michael had hair like in the early 80s when he first came into the NBA, I believe.

Nick VinZant 31:50

Yeah, you, I think you're right, Michael,

John Shull 31:54

but you're right though, like he made bald cool because bald wasn't really a thing. Oh, yeah, stage

Nick VinZant 32:04

Jordan, though looks like he was probably bald by early 20s. He went bald quick. Um, okay, without looking at a picture. Is Woody Harrelson bald?

John Shull 32:20

So random he I'm gonna say yes, but I'm guessing it's a no,

Nick VinZant 32:26

he is bald,

John Shull 32:28

okay,

Nick VinZant 32:28

but I picture him with hair, even though He is bald.

John Shull 32:35

I guess I've never really thought about it. I know. I don't know. I didn't really think he was bald, right? Or had hair? I mean, no, I didn't think he had hair.

Nick VinZant 32:45

Whatever. Um, who's in your own dimension,

John Shull 32:49

Jesus. Charles Barkley,

Nick VinZant 32:52

yeah, yeah.

John Shull 32:54

I mean, just for the fun facts alone, or fun fact alone, Yul Brenner,

Nick VinZant 32:59

who

John Shull 32:59

apparently was the person that made bald cool in the 70s and 80s.

Nick VinZant 33:06

Okay, I don't even,

John Shull 33:07

I don't know if, yeah, I think we talked about most of them. Just going back through my list here, Vin Diesel. Oh, I had Terry Crews on my list, but, I mean, he's not. I don't know if people really know I'm leaving Jason Statham off on purpose, because I don't, you know, don't really care. Oh, and I wrote down, I can barely read it, but LL Cool. J,

Nick VinZant 33:33

oh yeah, LL Cool. J, is bald? He might be the second. Is he the second biggest bald musician? No, the guy from Smashing Pumpkins is Billy Corgan. I think was probably a bigger musician.

John Shull 33:49

It would. It would be hard pressed for me not to say that. LL, cool. J isn't number one, to be honest with what he's done.

Nick VinZant 34:00

Oh, you mean that he's an NCIS, Hawaii, or whatever it is like what No dude, Mr. World is, is LL Cool, J worldwide? No, he's not pit bull. Is Mr. Worldwide?

John Shull 34:15

I'm not gonna argue you're right, but I think there is a debate there. Maybe,

Nick VinZant 34:22

I don't think so. The only one that I had, in my honorable mention that you did not have, is Bill Burr, another guy

Nick VinZant 34:28

that's

Nick VinZant 34:28

always been bald like he never, I think, had any hair. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps out the show and let us know what you think are the best bald celebrities. In my mind, I have to envision them entirely without hair, which is why I don't think the rock for me counts as a bald. Bald celebrity because he had hair that was prominent at one point, not like Patrick Stewart, not like Michael Jack Jordan, or always bald.

Celebrities and Cults with Celebrity Cult Expert Cassie Maire

From Tom Cruise and Jared Leto to Allison Mack and Gwyneth Paltrow, Celebrity Cult Expert Cassie Marie says celebrities have a long association with cults and cult-like behavior.

We talk why celebrities are drawn to cults, the biggest celebrity cults and the strangest celebrity cult stories.

Then, it’s raking the leaves and mowing the lawn vs, weeding and power washing as we countdown the Top 5 Worst Yard Chores.

00:00 Introducing Celebrity Cult Expert Cassie Marie

01:38 Why Celebrities are Drawn to Cults

03:58 How Cults Draw Celebrities In

07:04 Tom Cruise and Cults

11:26 The Biggest Celebrity Cult

12:55 Gwyneth Paltrow and Cults

16:04 Allison Mack and Cults

17:06 Miley Cyrus and Cults

20:59 Jared Leto and Cults

23:50 The Most Dangerous Cult

25:32 Justin Bieber and Cults

29:27 Pointless

51:07 The Five Worst Yard Chores

Contact the Show

Cassie Marie TikTok

Cassie Marie Instagram

Cassie Marie YouTube

Interview with Celebrity Cult Expert Lisa Marie

Nick VinZant 0:12

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode, celebrities and cults and yard work.

Cassie Marie 0:22

Cults want celebrities. Scientology actually kind of pioneered that as a concept that a lot of other cults have followed. Being a seeker is one of the biggest things that attracts people to a cult. How can she possibly be in a cult while having played a main character that literally breaks out of a cult,

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she studies a topic that is just interesting, especially in a celebrity obsessed culture. This is celebrity cult expert Cassie Marie, what is it about celebrities and cults that interests you?

Cassie Marie 1:15

I have been in a couple of different cult like groups, so after watching Leah reminisce Scientology in the aftermath and the vow on HBO Max about the Nexium cult, I started making connections in between groups that I was a part of, and these like extreme cults that were like, really causing a lot of harm to people.

Nick VinZant 1:38

Do celebrities seem uniquely drawn to cults.

Cassie Marie 1:42

Cults want celebrities. Scientology actually kind of pioneered that as a concept that a lot of other cults have followed. The leader of Scientology, L Ron Hubbard, very specifically, was like celebrities have influence and that will legitimize Scientology and bring as many people in as possible. And I think lots of cult leaders and cult like groups agreed with that, and kind of saw that as something that works. So cults like you will uniquely seek out celebrities. And then I think there are a couple aspects of being a celebrity, especially being a child star, that celebrities could sometimes be uniquely drawn to cults. I think that child stars often don't get to form a real sense of identity, and something that draws anyone, not just celebrities, into a cult, is seeking an identity and seeking like just kind of a structure for their life and who they are. So I think child stars can be uniquely drawn to cults. I think that celebrities do often like being held above the rest, like they like the praise and admiration that celebrities uniquely get from cults that other cult members don't always get and I think that celebrities the entertainment industry is hard, right? Like the entertainment industry can be difficult and volatile, and you can have, you can be a one hit wonder and have success for one minute and be down the next. And so I think sometimes I've heard from celebrity cult members that have left, they feel lost once they've had some success, and then feel like they need to maintain it, or worry that they'll never be successful again. So I think that finding a structure that tells you that they have the answers to everything you need is going to be very appealing.

Nick VinZant 3:36

Are they drawn to specific kinds of cults, like are these usual, usually self help. Are they spiritual? Are they religious cults? Like, are there certain types of cults they're drawn to? Or is it just across the board?

Cassie Marie 3:49

I think it's across the board. I haven't seen any cults, except maybe very fundamentalist religious cults.

Nick VinZant 3:58

So you mentioned that you have a history with cults. What is like? How do they draw you in like?

Cassie Marie 4:04

So I joined a cult in my early 20s, and according to Daniela mest Nick Young, who is she has studied Organizational Psychology and has studied cults, and she was raised in the children of God cult. So she has kind of two unique views of cults, her and several other cult scholars will say that being a seeker is one of the biggest things that attracts people to a cult, seeking a specific worldview, seeking an identity, seeking something, seeking answers or comfort, is usually why people join. So when I was in my early 20s, I was very much seeking, like spiritual answers, like, what what is religion? What is God? Like? I was just very curious and very open to anything. And so I joined an evangelical. A religious cult where I learned how to be a Christian psychic kind of I they did not call it that. That word was not acceptable, but that's the easiest way I find to explain it so but yeah, I was just a curious and open person, and that's usually all it takes.

Nick VinZant 5:18

Did you know you were in a cult?

Cassie Marie 5:21

Oh no.

Nick VinZant 5:22

Like, when did you realize you were in a cult?

Speaker 1 5:24

Actually, the Christian, the church cult that I was a part of, I did not recognize as a cult until, well after I left it like, well after I was out and deconstructed, was I able to look back and go, Oh, that's like, very controlling. There are a lot of aspects of a cult that check this box. And then there were several scandals that came out about that particular church that I was like, oh yeah. There were really bad things going on behind the scenes that I didn't know about, also on top of my own experience, that I would definitely agree that this was cult like. And then I was part of a internet coaching, motivation type cult that was actually kind of a direct pipeline out of the church that I was a part of, it held very similar beliefs. And that one, I recognized I was more harmed. I would say, in that one, I had direct effects of, like, something bad happening to me. So it was a little bit easier when I was watching these cult documentaries to be like, Oh, that feels very similar to what is going on with me right now. That one I was a little bit more understanding of, like, this seems like a cult. And then I was able to look back on the other one and be like, oh, there seems to be a pattern here.

Nick VinZant 6:36

In general, when someone is in a cult, do they know they're in a cult at any time during it, or is it only after words that they seem to realize it?

Speaker 1 6:49

In my experience, from listening to cult survivors, nobody in a cult thinks that they're in a cult. Nobody that is currently in a cult would ever say, Yes, this is a cult or cult like group that I'm a part of, and that's fine. It's always after.

Nick VinZant 7:04

Let's kind of go through some of the big celebrities that have been in cults. So the one that jumps out right away is Tom Cruise. Is he the most famous celebrity associated with a quote, unquote cult,

Speaker 1 7:17

I would say. So I would say, when people think of celebrities and cults immediately. Tom Cruise is what comes to mind. He was not Scientology's first celebrity, by any means, but I think he just became Scientology's biggest celebrity. And then he had several instances where he publicly spoke about being a Scientologist, which actually made Scientology celebrities roll back doing that now you really have to pry information out of celebrity Scientologists because of how wild Tom Cruise appeared in interviews and the famous Oprah segment where he jumped up and down on The couch and declared his love to Katie Holmes. He he had some some public moments that people found a little crazy, and I think that's a big reason people could point to Scientology and be like, Oh, he talks about being a Scientologist. He's clearly in it. And this guy seems a little crazy, so Scientology must be why? But there are so many more, not only Scientology celebrities, but just celebrities that have been involved in one culture another.

Nick VinZant 8:30

Scientology seems to be the one that always jumps out, but it seems to have kind of faded from the public eye a little bit in that respect. Is that true, or is that just my perspective on things.

Speaker 1 8:41

I think after Tom Cruise, kind of made a fool of himself in a couple of different ways. In regards to Scientology, Scientology made a policy and a specific script that celebrity celebrities had to use if they ever talked about Scientology publicly, and a lot of them will not talk about it. So one person that people find fascinating is Elizabeth Moss being a second generation Scientologist, because she was the lead character in a Handmaid's Tale, which is a TV show about a cult. So people are like, how can she possibly be in a cult while having played a main character that literally breaks out of a cult. And I think I have several theories on why that is, but I would say now Elizabeth Moss is the other big celebrity Scientologist, and then all of the rest of them are kind of more quiet about it, and some of them don't talk about it at all. We just know from Scientologists that have left

Nick VinZant 9:45

kind of put you on the spot a little bit. But who are some of the other celebrity Scientologists?

Speaker 1 9:50

Chloe Fineman from SNL, is a celebrity Scientologist. Jason Doring is a big one. He was on Veronica. Ours, which had a huge like fan base and Vampire Diaries. Nancy Cartwright, who is the voice of Bart Simpson, is a Scientologist, and she actually used the voice of Bart Simpson to try to raise money for Scientology before, which was very interesting. Let's see, I'm John Travolta, and Kirsty alley were kind of the big celebrity Scientologists before Tom Cruise. And then there are, I mean, there's lots that people might not recognize their names right off the bat. Oh, Patrick Renna, who was on the sand lot. You're killing me. Smalls

Nick VinZant 10:40

was Will Smith or not.

Speaker 1 10:43

So Will and Jada Smith were a interesting case in Scientology. They firmly say that they were never Scientologists, but they were frequently at Scientology celebrity center, and for a time they ran a school based on Scientology principles, and they have donated large amounts of money to Scientology. So there was a short amount of time where I would say they absolutely were Scientologists, because I don't know how you start a Scientology school and give money to an organization without being part of the organization. Will and Jada say that they are just interested in spirituality. And so they've tried many different things. Scientology being one of those

Nick VinZant 11:26

things. Is there any other cult that you would say rivals Scientology in terms of its like width and scope in the celebrity world?

Speaker 1 11:35

Possibly different yoga cults. There was a time in like the mid to late 2000s I would say, where Kundalini yoga, or even like early 2010s where Kundalini yoga was a big trend in Hollywood, and there were tons of celebrities that joined a specific kundali Kundalini yoga studio that was run in a very cult like way. So it's not necessarily the yoga that's culty. It's the control and manipulation and coercion tactics of the leader that made it a cult, and that one harmed its employees and exploited a lot of people for their labor, and just lied a lot about what they did and what they would help you with. So those celebrities weren't I don't think as bought in as you have to be with Scientology, it's something that they could participate in more casually, and it was more the employees and the regular members that were in more of a closed system, if that makes sense. But there were tons that did participate in that for a while.

Nick VinZant 12:49

Is that Guru jugg it or something like that?

Speaker 1 12:53

Yeah, yeah.

Nick VinZant 12:55

Gwyneth Paltrow, is she in a cult? Because every time I see some of the goop stuff that she seems to be doing is like, that's a little something,

Speaker 1 13:06

yes. So I don't think, as far as I know, that Gwyneth Paltrow is in any specific cult. I would consider her a culty person, like a culty celebrity. I think she uses well intentioned or not, a lot of tactics of coercion to sell products that can be harmful. I think she uses a lot of false science and emotional marketing to sell goop things that have harmed people, that she either ignores or promotes as something that it's clearly not or has no scientific backing to do. She's more of like a snake oil salesman,

Nick VinZant 13:54

yeah, maybe not a cult, but it's like a little bit not a cult, but you're doing something over there,

Speaker 1 14:02

and it's still very cult like because it uses the same tactics that a cult leader would. And she's promote, she's promoted products that have been cult like startups or have been created by cult like leaders. So she, to me, like pushes cults on people, while not ever like committing to anything intense herself, like Scientology or even, well, she did. She did go to Rama Institute with guru jacket. She was part of that Kundalini yoga thing. So she's like a dabbler and a snake oil salesman.

Nick VinZant 14:36

Would any of them are kind of, I just use the word exposed for being in a cult, or it finds out. Does it seem to affect their public image? Does it affect their careers at all?

Speaker 1 14:47

I don't think so. Because cults are I think a relatively new trend for people to be interested in cult documentaries have really exploded over the last 10 years, and. People find them fascinating. But because of our culture in America, our freedom of religion just several things, I don't think it affects people the way that they think. It does like I don't think it affects celebrities. Obviously, several people have said Gwenyth Paltrow is promoting harmful products and she's doing great, like her company's doing well, she's not been canceled. She's not been, I don't think, affected majorly. And perhaps there's no way to say for sure, maybe she would be doing way better if people didn't say anything about it. But I think that most celebrity cult members do just fine, because people either don't know what it is, or don't fully understand it, or think that they have the right to believe whatever they want, which is I agree with I think beliefs and cults are two different things, so I think only for like the niche audience that understands what it means to be a celebrity cult member. Does it ever affect their career,

Nick VinZant 16:04

but a person who faced like, real life consequences in the sense that, like, oh, they ended up in jail. Allison Mack,

Speaker 1 16:12

Allison Mack faced real world consequences because I think she participated in the cult more so than most celebrities do. Celebrities inside of a cult are treated entirely differently than regular practicing cult members. They are given pass like they're given a pass to do basically whatever they want because they're important to the cult or the cult leader, so they're not held to the same standards, is what I'm getting at but Allison Mack participated so fully, and was so devoted and committed to it that she perpetuated harm on other people, way more than just being a celebrity that's promoting a thing or being a celebrity that's making a group look okay when it's actually causing harm behind The scenes. She partook in the harm behind the scenes, which is why she ended up going to jail for it.

Nick VinZant 17:06

Miley Cyrus.

Speaker 1 17:09

So Miley Cyrus was rumored to be in a self help cult for a while, and then did make a statement saying that she was not part of that cult again. Who knows how involved she was. She was photographed at events that the cult held, and then she was also photographed very often with a like, a group leader or a coach within the self help group. She was going out with her all the time, photographed doing all like, just anything with her, like they were great friends. So she was rumored to be part of, oh gosh, what was that one called? It slipped my mind. I'll have to look it up. But it was a self help cult that she later denied.

Nick VinZant 17:52

Modern Mystery School.

Speaker 1 17:54

Yes, that is it.

Nick VinZant 17:57

The name of it was modern Mystery School,

Speaker 1 17:59

yes. So she went to a seminar for modern Mystery School. Modern Mystery School jogged my memory. Is a metaphysical self help group. So they're very into manifestation and being like the driver of your own life, your own destiny, and the leader of that cult did some heinous things to people that were in it, and there are a couple of vice articles and vice podcasts about him. Specifically, people have done really intense deep dives into him as a cult leader, and the harms were pretty significant. But she once, people started saying, I think she's attending these seminars and is seen with this coach. She very quickly distanced herself from it, so we may never know to what extent she was involved, but hopefully not very much anymore.

Nick VinZant 18:53

Yeah, does it always seem to go bad, like in any of these times where celebrity is involved in a cult? Does it ultimately, always seem to go bad at some point, or sometimes they just in a cult. And like, they're just in a cult.

Speaker 1 19:07

I think this question can also be framed as, are there any good cults, like, there, are there any cults that just don't go bad? And I think cults exist on a spectrum of harm and coercion and control and influence. Some are worse than others, but I don't think coercing or manipulating people is ever a good thing. I do think celebrities could be part of cults that aren't as bad as other cults, but I do think that they always will follow a trajectory of some level of harm that I would not consider good.

Nick VinZant 19:44

You know, we always hear about both celebrities and regular people stories about how they were pretty involved in the cult, and then they realized that this was going negatively. Are there any celebrity stories where they were in it for a short time? And then. Got out somebody who noticed really early.

Speaker 1 20:05

I don't know if there ever is someone who has talked about that a lot, because I think that celebrities that do things like that often want to, like, brush it under the rug and not talk about the thing, the bad thing that they were involved in. I do think there are several Scientology celebrities that have left Scientology and either speak out against it or don't like Jason Begay, he's on like Chicago. PD, I think he joined Scientology like as an adult. Wasn't raised in it, joined and then left once he realized it was bad. But that was like a 10 year process.

Nick VinZant 20:45

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 20:47

Usually they, they participate to some extent, because you join a cult slowly over time. If you knew how bad it was from the jump, the cult wouldn't be very successful.

Nick VinZant 20:59

This is one that I'm interested in Jared Leto.

Speaker 1 21:03

That,

Nick VinZant 21:04

to me is that is like, what is going on there? Is he in a cult? Did? Is he the leader of a cult? There seems to be a lot.

Speaker 1 21:13

I ask myself that question all the time. He is a fascinating character, and I think a good, a better example of celebrity fandoms as cults. I think that celebrities themselves can intentionally or unintentionally be like cult leaders and Jared Leto did, like a whole fake experience where he had a concert like on a deserted island. Is it 30 Seconds to Mars, yeah, yeah. He they did, like, an experience on an island, and called it a cult. And, like, wore robes, made everybody wear white, and like, did this fake cult thing. But I think if you're coercing people and being weird about cultiness, how fake was it? Like, maybe it was just a cult for a time, and then it wasn't. And he's very weird, but I think he is. He has a cult like fandom, and just does wacky, kooky things. And it seems like one of those people that's up for anything, and I would liken him more to Gwyneth Paltrow, only somehow more extreme than her, and it's just someone that I always have my eyes on that I'm like, you're doing something unsavory, and I'm waiting for you to do a full blown cult.

Nick VinZant 22:31

Yeah. Like, how does somebody like that keep getting work when everybody is kind of like, there's something odd there?

Speaker 1 22:38

I don't know, some people, some especially, I think male actors get away with a lot and still somehow continue to have work. The entertainment industry as a whole can be considered a cult. I think a lot of the work environments and just a lot of the way that it's structured can be very coercive. I think there's a lot of things that have been exposed. People behind the scenes aren't always safe people or careful people, and a lot of times people don't care. There'll be someone who's probably just as bad, willing to give people work no matter what

Nick VinZant 23:16

that is the truth, as long as there's money involved, there will be somebody else involved.

Speaker 1 23:21

Russell Brand is another person that I think is similar to, like, Jared Leto. Like, he's odd and he's like, for a long time, people thought he was just odd, and now all of this stuff is coming out that he's like, a horribly abusive, like, aggressive, violent man. So that's kind of why I have my eye on Jared Leto because I'm like, I've seen some similarities there, and I just don't trust

Speaker 2 23:46

it.

Nick VinZant 23:46

Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions,

Nick VinZant 23:49

yeah,

Nick VinZant 23:50

what do you think is the most dangerous cult,

Speaker 1 23:54

apocalyptic death cults that end and massacre probably would be the worst. There's been a few of them, and any apocalyptic cult can trend that way. There are a lot of extreme forms of Mormonism, like the LDS church, people that have branched off, not even just the FLDS, but there have been people that have branched off of those belief systems that have had even more intense apocalyptic views that have ended terribly. I think. Have you heard of like Lori valo and Chad daybell?

Nick VinZant 24:29

No

Speaker 1 24:30

Lori valo killed her own children and buried them in her backyard because she thought they were aliens, and had been like infiltrated by aliens in their bodies, and she thought she was saving them. But I don't know if you can quantify like, how dangerous cults are, because some cults don't end in death, but there's a lot of like, horrible sex crimes or horrible crimes against children that happen, and they exist on a spectrum, so like, not all of them are going to happen. Have those horrible, horrible things. But I would consider death cults and anything that harms children to be the worst of the worst. And there are so many, I don't even know where to start.

Nick VinZant 25:12

What celebrity cult experience are you most fascinated by?

Speaker 1 25:17

I think probably Elizabeth Moss and her being the main character that fights against a cult while having been raised as a second generation cult member that is quite committed to the cult that she is in.

Nick VinZant 25:32

Who are you kind of watching now?

Speaker 1 25:35

I'm watching Justin Bieber a little bit to see how his life and career goes from here being raised as a child star, and I think that he's been harmed a lot as a child star, and he currently is part of an evangelical cult, cult like church, very similar to the one that I left. And so I'm kind of watching him to see if he deconstructs and heals from that, or if he goes deeper and deeper in, and what kind of happens to him and the rest of his career, and if he ever comes out about some of the harms that have happened to him that people speculate

Nick VinZant 26:14

about, Does this seem to be getting worse or better? Like, are you hearing about more celebrities and cults, or is it kind of starting to fade.

Speaker 1 26:22

I would say it's getting worse, just because, in general, I think cults are so prevalent in America right now, and cults thrive in times of unrest and times of uncertainty. And I think we've been living through so many unprecedented times lately. And as a society, we are extremely divided politically and just with a lot of big topics that are happening in the world right now. So during times of unrest or uncertainty or extremism, either way or extreme division, cults thrive in that environment.

Nick VinZant 27:00

Do cults mainly seem to be associated with B and C list celebrities? Like, is it usually kind of the TV show actors, etc, etc, or are there A listers? We just don't know it.

Speaker 1 27:13

I think most A listers have participated in some cults before. I think that they hide it more because, from a PR standpoint, it's better to just not even address it like not talk about those things. So I think A listers are less likely to talk about it, whereas B listers and C listers, I think, are just more open about it, because it's not I they probably don't have the same team telling them, hey, yeah, don't talk about this. That might not be a good idea. Or they just don't care, or they're so they're more involved in their cult, because their career isn't as big. They feel like they need the cult to further the career, and so they'll be more dedicated. There's a there could be a lot of things, but I do think A listers have dabbled Sabrina carpenter. I have heard, I've heard this is a rumor. This is not, this is allegedly, but I have heard that Sabrina carpenter did try Scientology because her aunt is Nancy Cartwright, the voice of Bart Simpson. So I heard from someone who left Scientology that Sabrina carpenter did come into Scientology celebrity center one day to try it, and ultimately decided it wasn't for her. So whether that was to appease familial connections or if it's even true or not, I don't know, but I do think that A listers participate try are just as attracted to them as anyone else, but I think they have teams that are much more wanting them to be much more careful with how they talk about it.

Nick VinZant 28:51

I want to thank Cassie so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. When it comes to celebrities and cults, we've really just scratched the surface. There are so many more celebrities that are involved in in cults. It's unbelievable. And if you want to hear all about them, check out her social media. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you have to turn down the music when you get in your car?

John Shull 29:37

I am a volume to 10 all the time, kind of guy,

Nick VinZant 29:42

wow, oh, you're bumping it then, huh?

John Shull 29:46

Yes, you could say I enjoy to bump it.

Nick VinZant 29:50

I have to turn down the music immediately. As soon as I get in my car, the music comes on, and I'm like, Oh, God, that's way too loud. Like, that's deafening to me. Me every time I get in the car, I never learn the lesson. It's always way too loud.

John Shull 30:05

I find myself getting a little annoyed when I get my car and turn on the the car and the music's a little loud, and my daughters immediately start complaining. Like, give me a half a second to turn it down, and I will. I don't need you to complain about it,

Nick VinZant 30:20

see. But then, do you feel like that you should anticipate? Should you have anticipated that as soon as you get in the car, the music is going to be too loud? You should have turned it down before you got out. Or do you feel like that's the cost of doing business? You ride in my car, you're going to have to you're just going to go deaf

Speaker 2 30:35

for a little

John Shull 30:36

bit. Well, I feel like my art cars aren't our own cars. You know what I mean? Like they're just kid mobiles at this point, because that's all they're used for, is transport, transporting our children to everything that they're in.

Nick VinZant 30:48

Oh, speak for yourself, I don't do that. That's not what I'm using my car for. So please don't cast aspersions on my experiences just because it's your life with a minivan, if you and also you got a minivan, that's what you signed up for. Don't complain about having to cart your kids all over the place. When you bought a minivan, you basically said, I want to do this. You signed up for it.

John Shull 31:09

I don't know how this is turning into it a me problem. It's fine. I'm not complaining about it.

Nick VinZant 31:16

Well, it's like buying an ax and then complaining that you have to chop things. You bought a minivan. You can't complain about having to drive your kids all over the place. That's what you signed up for. That's why you bought it.

John Shull 31:26

I'm not complaining about that. I just said that, like my car isn't my car.

Nick VinZant 31:31

Oh, well, maybe you just need to put your foot down a little bit right make maybe you need to take some things back, because I think that you're over there, and there's been a general pattern in the last couple of weeks that we've been doing this where you're kind of complaining about your family and how they just run all over you and it seems like your fault, like you need to take a little bit more initiative there.

John Shull 31:50

Do you want to? You want me to give you the the perfect firepower that you can use against me forever,

Nick VinZant 31:57

more than all the other things? Like, what else? Yeah, I need, yeah, I'm sitting over here. I've got, like, a stockpile. What do you want me to bring up, the fact that you threw your back out, pick it up, a small piece of dog poop that you tore your calf off the bone taking two steps. The fact that you are not a champion, the fact that you live in Detroit, like, what else could you possibly give me

John Shull 32:19

that was emasculated in my own house during a child's birthday party on Saturday.

Nick VinZant 32:25

Okay, well, go on, go on. I'm sure

Speaker 2 32:30

it's

Nick VinZant 32:30

not the first time you've been emasculated in your own house. But do tell.

John Shull 32:35

I mean,

Nick VinZant 32:35

do tell.

John Shull 32:36

I mean, long, long story short, we were, it was about a half an hour before the party was to get going, I was doing some final cleaning. A pipe had burst, unknowingly under my sink, and it flooded some of my kitchen, but a lot of a lot of the water was picked up by like the bath mat and thing, or the the the mat that was up there in the kitchen. Okay? And I was just gonna wait till Sunday to do it right? I'm not, I'm not a plumber, but I think I could, I could have figured it out well, two of the guys that were here, their kids go to my kids school. One guy is pretty handy, and he's like, I can fix this an hour for you. So like, halfway through the party, he goes to Home Depot, gets the, gets what, what he needs, goes to his house, gets his own tools, doesn't want to use mine, and fixes it in like 45 minutes in front

Nick VinZant 33:31

of him. This was, this was on what day

John Shull 33:34

Saturday,

Nick VinZant 33:35

did your wife leave you that night? Or did she leave you on Sunday or Monday? When exactly did she file for divorce? Or did she even bother filing for divorce? Or she just take all your stuff and leave you can't have, you can't allow Did you? Did you at least try to help?

John Shull 33:50

No, I did. I did because he had another one of those school dads. Like they were, like, they became a team. I actually asked, Oh, man, I was like, Can I get can I make you guys drinks? That's what I did. I became the bartender for them.

Speaker 2 34:05

What?

Nick VinZant 34:06

Okay, yeah. I mean, did they definitely okay? Is one of them? Is that one of theirs full time employment? Like, is one of them a plumber or a handyman or work in construction?

John Shull 34:18

Yeah, he's, he's a high voltage electrician. He knows his way around. You know, a house, so to speak.

Nick VinZant 34:26

Okay, um, yeah,

John Shull 34:30

really, come on. Come on. I've been waiting for two days to tell you this story.

Nick VinZant 34:35

I don't think that I need to say anything

John Shull 34:37

that's

Speaker 2 34:38

I

Nick VinZant 34:38

don't think that I need to bring up anything. I think that everybody already knows. I don't need to make any comments about it. I mean, I am a believer that if somebody knows how to do a job and you don't let the person who knows how to do the job do it, but if you know how to do the job, and it's your own house, you, I mean, I don't really, yeah, I'm not

John Shull 34:59

sorry. I.

Nick VinZant 35:00

I don't have a big response for it, because I'm not, I'm just not surprised. I've seen this pattern building, and I just think it's only going to get worse and

Speaker 2 35:07

worse and

John Shull 35:08

worse. I mean, I'm, I'm okay with it. I would have taken me three hours. He did it in 45 minutes, and he did it right. Like, okay, and all I did was have to pay for parts and give him gin and tonic. Like, okay, fine.

Speaker 2 35:20

I

Nick VinZant 35:20

mean, it kind of sounds like a good deal, but like, would you let another man mow your law lawn?

John Shull 35:28

Not, not, not now. No, because I did. I'm surprised you forgot that I would.

Speaker 2 35:35

I'm setting

Nick VinZant 35:36

you up for it. I'm waiting for you. Yeah, I know I never would, and then remind you that you used to pay somebody to

John Shull 35:41

do it. No, as I've as I've gotten older, mowing the lawn is cathartic. It's therapeutic. Now I enjoy it every week.

Nick VinZant 35:50

No, I would say that that emasculated you, but I don't think that, like, Look zero minus zero is still zero.

John Shull 35:58

I listen. I knew what I was getting in for when I told you the story. So that's I'm okay with it. I'm it is what it is.

Nick VinZant 36:04

No, I think that those are very nice friends. It's good to

John Shull 36:08

have people

John Shull 36:09

who know we move on.

Nick VinZant 36:10

Oh, I did poll the audience. So 60% I polled the audience. 60% of people said yes, they have to turn the music down immediately when they get in. 40% say no, it does leave the question, do they not have to turn it down because they turned it down already, or they just not listen to music that loud in the first place?

John Shull 36:29

Do you, I mean, what do you do? Even listen to music? You seem like an NPR kind of guy.

Nick VinZant 36:36

No, I listen to music or silence, or I just drive in silence. And I don't really mind a nice silent drive every once in a while, just driving,

Speaker 2 36:47

yeah, I don't

Nick VinZant 36:48

feel like changing the radio stations that much because I'm not paying for anything, and I don't have any kind of device in my phone that can play anything like that, like I don't have, I have not yet. I have never evolved beyond the radio. I've never had CDs, I've never had tapes. I've never had it hooked up to, like an mp three. I've never had it connected to one of those satellite things. I have never evolved beyond the radio.

John Shull 37:16

Someone sent me a picture of a CD the other day, like they had found gold. And I was like, I mean, this is what I grew up with, cassettes and CDs. I don't know why you're so excited about it.

Nick VinZant 37:29

I mean, maybe they were. They know that you're an old soul. Did somebody send you a picture of a submarine? Hey,

Nick VinZant 37:38

Jordan, fill this submarine today. You want to read about it a book.

John Shull 37:43

First off, some we're not going to get into this, but submarines are awesome, and for

Nick VinZant 37:48

you, I'm sure they are, I'm sure that they are, but one book on submarines is enough. You don't need 15 to 20 books on submarines.

John Shull 37:56

The First off, it's book. It's different books about different submarines, different situations in life and historical events.

Nick VinZant 38:06

Were they all underwater in a war?

John Shull 38:12

95% probably were

Nick VinZant 38:14

okay. Mike, and we were underwater in a war. Here's the story of USF 62 man, I can't wait to read the story of USF 63

John Shull 38:28

I mean, I got, I have nothing. I disrespecting every veteran out there who's ever been in a submarine.

Speaker 2 38:33

No,

Nick VinZant 38:34

I'm not disrespecting any veterans who have been in submarines. I'm saying that one book on submarines is enough.

John Shull 38:42

That's like saying, like one anime book, because I know you're in anime, it's a completely

Nick VinZant 38:46

different story, not about the same thing.

John Shull 38:49

Well, so are submarine stories. They're all different just because you have the basis, which is still under one itself, whatever. I don't, I don't understand how this is even

Nick VinZant 38:58

a thing. We're all underwater,

Speaker 2 39:00

whatever.

John Shull 39:02

I don't

Nick VinZant 39:03

fired up about, I'm trying to reignite the passion in your life, because it doesn't seem like you have the passion in your life. You're letting people walk all over you.

John Shull 39:13

What is a walk all over or is it just being smart?

Nick VinZant 39:18

Well, I don't know. Really, that's Well, I mean, if you have to ask the question, I mean, I don't have the answer, you should already know the answer for you. Actually, that would you know honestly, the my real thing would be like, yeah, why wouldn't I let those other guys do the work that I don't want to

Speaker 2 39:31

do?

John Shull 39:32

I mean, it cost me 25 bucks if I would have had to call a plumber out here on Sunday or do it myself. It would have taken me all day. It would have taken me six hours to do it myself.

Nick VinZant 39:43

Well, if I'm ever faced with the choice between letting someone else do something and having me do something, I would let someone else do something

John Shull 39:50

like I know where my strengths and weaknesses are, and I that is not one of them. Unfortunately, I wish it was like if we were to do a top five on things. We wish we know or could do. My number one would probably be like, be a handyman, because some of those things are just like, they're so clutch and they can save so much money. But I just, I didn't grow up that way.

Nick VinZant 40:12

I did not either. So let's move on.

Speaker 2 40:14

No,

John Shull 40:16

you should have been a doctor. All right, let's give out some shout outs here, we'll start with, I got a good one to start off the list here.

Nick VinZant 40:23

All right.

John Shull 40:24

Gustavo Cantrell.

Nick VinZant 40:27

Oh, I like the name Cantrell. I like that. I haven't heard that one all the time.

John Shull 40:32

Ryan Sullivan, Annie bridges, Zach Kennedy, Becky, Ayers, Anderson, Daniels, Dexter, Schaefer, Irvin, Prince, Brian Blake and Zach Kennedy.

Nick VinZant 40:51

Always Are those all three? Is that three people? Is it Brian Blake and Zach Kennedy, like they're all it's Brian Kennedy Blake, Kennedy and Zach Kennedy, or is it Brian Blake comma, Zach Kennedy?

John Shull 41:07

Go fuck yourself. How about that Nick?

Speaker 2 41:08

I just

Nick VinZant 41:09

don't I'm not sure. I'm just trying to clarify exactly. Are we talking about three people or two people? Because I'm not entirely sure. By the way,

Nick VinZant 41:15

listen,

John Shull 41:15

they know who they are, and that's all that matters. All right,

Nick VinZant 41:18

so you don't have an answer. In other words, you're not entirely sure if it's so is it Brian Blake and Zach Brian Zach Kennedy. I'm just trying to get an answer. I just want to know which one it is. Is it

Speaker 2 41:32

Brian Blake?

Nick VinZant 41:34

Which one is it? Is it Brian Blake and Zach Kennedy? So are we talking about two people? Are we talking about Brian Blake and Zach Kennedy, like Chris John and Steve Johnson, or Chris Steve and John Johnson?

John Shull 41:51

It's, it's two separate people. Okay,

Nick VinZant 41:53

thank you. That's, I was just trying to clarify. I was just trying to clarify.

John Shull 41:56

Oh, you were just trying to be a douche. I just

Nick VinZant 41:59

didn't know which one it was.

John Shull 42:02

Do you think when you when you die, on your tombstone, do you think you're gonna say, like, Nick Well, you have a weird middle name. Isn't like, Cartier or something,

Nick VinZant 42:11

Kazmir, it's polish. Thanks for insulting my ancestry.

John Shull 42:15

There you go, VinZant. And then next to it, it's gonna be like, like, little shit or something or shit start, that would be a good one for you.

Nick VinZant 42:24

I've already decided what's going to be on my tombstone.

John Shull 42:28

Do you want to share?

Nick VinZant 42:29

It's going to say my wife never could play sports, because anytime that I'm paired up with her at any kind of athletic event, she always lets me down. And I want her to know that for the rest of eternity that my wife never could play sports.

John Shull 42:45

It's good to know that you're as it's good to know that you are as cutthroat with your own wife as you are with everybody else in your life.

Nick VinZant 42:52

She needs to step it up. Her athletic ability is not where it needs to be. And for the things that we're doing, we're going mountain biking, we're going snowboarding, playing skeeball, and she's just letting me down across the board. And I want her to know that,

John Shull 43:04

you know, God dang, skeeball gotta be an athletic prowess for that gotta be I don't

Nick VinZant 43:08

want to lose. I'm out there on Parents Night Out, spending time hanging out with the other parents, and she's not pulling her weight on skee ball. So what am I gonna say? This is the difference. You think it's douchey, you think it's stuck. I just don't let I don't tolerate people's crap. I expect better. I expect better of people. I'm sorry for just not doing what you do and just like, okay, whatever you do is fine. Just go ahead, whatever. Haha, no, I expect the more out of people, especially when like yourself and like my wife, I think that you can do better, and I'm sorry for having expectations.

John Shull 43:45

Feel like you just went left to right there. I think this all comes back to you. You are just having some anxiety because you clearly want to prove to the other dads that you are better at them, and clearly you are not.

Nick VinZant 43:58

Oh no, I've already proved to the other dads that I'm better at them by beating them at skeeball. I'm just expecting my wife to also show the same sort of domination that I am, and she's letting me down because I know that she's capable of it. She's better. She just needs to focus, maybe not drink so much before you play skeeball or drink more like you got to find the packing medium there

John Shull 44:20

are you sober when you play skeeball against the other dads?

Nick VinZant 44:24

No, because I'm playing skee ball,

John Shull 44:27

okay, good, I'm just

Nick VinZant 44:28

there's certain sports you don't have to ask if someone is sober. Are you sober playing golf? No. Are you sober playing softball? No. Are you sober playing skeeball or darts or billiards, or any of those kind of things. No, I don't know why you even asked that question.

John Shull 44:45

Feel like you should probably be somewhat sober playing darts.

Nick VinZant 44:50

I mean, yeah, but then that's not the tradition of the sport I love.

John Shull 44:57

Well, good. Well, when's your next night out? What? What are we going to have a follow up to this story?

Nick VinZant 45:01

I don't know. I don't keep the calendar

John Shull 45:06

that I don't believe you are on top of things. Well, no, that's not true. You didn't even know you were going on vacation to the morning of which I audibly gassed when I read your text message. I'm like, how does he not know these things?

Nick VinZant 45:19

Well, because I trust my wife, and we have a complete division of responsibilities. I handle the things that I handle, and she handles the things that she handles, and she plans the vacations and tell me when to go, and she'll just be like, Hey, you were going on vacation. You need to, like, take a couple of days off here and then go like, Okay, where

Speaker 2 45:37

are we going?

Nick VinZant 45:37

Doesn't

Nick VinZant 45:38

matter. Okay. I like, they're not low No, you know, just sometimes you got to live life with the

John Shull 45:44

flow. Sure,

Nick VinZant 45:44

not a guy who owns a minivan.

John Shull 45:47

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with the minivan. There's nothing

Nick VinZant 45:51

wrong with owning a minivan. There's something wrong with you owning a mini. It's not related to the situation. It's related to you.

John Shull 45:59

I know that's been the story of this podcast since it started. Anyways, ah, you said your dog is barking.

Nick VinZant 46:13

Yep, is

John Shull 46:14

your dog a Barker?

Nick VinZant 46:16

Not really, not really. I don't want to

Speaker 2 46:20

talk. I always

Nick VinZant 46:21

my dog barking.

John Shull 46:23

I will say that one of the things that is still a little rattling to me is when you're out with your family, walking or jogging, whatever healthy people do, and there's that dog in the window that is just going nuts, and it's still, it still scares me to this day, because I'm like, that dog could easily break that window and tear my face off if it wanted to.

Nick VinZant 46:44

Yeah, I mean, I don't think too much about it, because then I realized that the dog is behind a window. Like, I can't really say that. I'm really super worried about it. Then, like, the dog, I hear a dog barking. I'm like, ooh, that dog sounds aggressive. Then I see it. It's like, oh, it's inside. I don't really have to worry about it too much. Now, if it runs up to a fence that does not look like it is the appropriate kind of construction, like, if the fence doesn't look great, or it looks like it could easily jump it, then I'm a little bit worried about it, but I'm not going to spend my day super paranoid about a dog barking me from at me, from inside. I

John Shull 47:18

usually have my i, this goes back to the first question you asked me. Actually, this at the beginning here, I usually have my volume all the way up at all times, so I don't a dog could attack me, and I probably wouldn't know it, to be honest, like, until it's biting my flesh.

Nick VinZant 47:35

Oh, you mean you read like, when you're walking around, you have the volume all the way up,

John Shull 47:39

all the way up. Like,

Nick VinZant 47:40

oh, you can't do that. I have a huge pet peeve. I don't think that people should be in public situations, whether they're like, walking on the sidewalk, or they're riding a bike or they're just doing whatever. I don't think that people should be out in public listening to things in their ears. I think that that's a big mistake, because you don't have situational awareness. And you need situational awareness when you're out in public. I think it's a bad idea for people to be listening to stuff in their ears while out in public. I

John Shull 48:13

haven't been hit by a car yet, so

Nick VinZant 48:16

you're gonna get hit by a car. This is probably why you're afraid of dogs, because you're not paying attention to the situation, and then finally, something raises to the level where it gets through the deafening music in your ear, and you're like, oh God, but if you just would have been kind of paying attention a little bit, then

Speaker 2 48:30

you

Nick VinZant 48:30

wouldn't have been scared in the first place.

John Shull 48:33

This all just goes back to the original thing. I just, I just, I can be better. I need to be better.

Speaker 2 48:38

You

Nick VinZant 48:39

need to be better, right? Like you're not taking the appropriate steps to be held accountable. How are you going to be a father? How are you going to be out there and say that you're a father, that you're somebody who is charged with the protection of your family, that you're supposed to be responsible for? You're out in public, and you're out there listening to blasting music, not being apprised of the situation. That's, you know,

John Shull 49:01

what? Half have half half the time. It's Shania Twain or something. It's not even good music. What am I doing?

Speaker 2 49:07

Is she the

John Shull 49:08

Backstreet Boys

Nick VinZant 49:09

are? I know you want to do someday, top five back boy bands. You want to do that? I mean, we can do that

John Shull 49:16

next

Nick VinZant 49:16

week.

John Shull 49:18

I could do that. No, because you would just frustrate the hell out of me on purpose.

Nick VinZant 49:21

Oh no, why? Because I would, because I have taste in music.

John Shull 49:28

What's, what's the last song you listened to? Who by who? What was it? Who was it by

Nick VinZant 49:33

now, backstreets, back by Backstreet Boys. That would be the last boy band song I would have listened to.

John Shull 49:38

No, what? What was the last song you remember listening to, like the last song,

Nick VinZant 49:45

I think I listened to sandstorm, by de rood because I was fucking raging on Saturday night.

John Shull 49:56

Wow. Well, I can tell you my last one was wide awake by Katy Perry, just. Was 45 minutes ago. So,

Nick VinZant 50:02

right, right? And you

Speaker 2 50:04

know,

John Shull 50:05

my daughter, what's good with my daughters? It was my daughters

Nick VinZant 50:09

because we were coming we know, I think we see the pattern. I don't know if we need to elaborate on this further. I think we see what's happening that's fair.

John Shull 50:18

Well, unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to get any better. We've been doing this now what? Eight

Speaker 2 50:22

years?

Nick VinZant 50:22

No

John Shull 50:23

idea. I don't think anything is gonna change. I

Nick VinZant 50:26

look all i all i want to say is that as you head down this path and continue to head down this path, don't ever say you haven't been told. Okay,

John Shull 50:39

maybe, maybe when we do finally come to a close and we do like a reunion episode, we can revisit this and see if I've, you know, gotten better throughout the years or whatever. That would be fun.

Nick VinZant 50:52

Yeah, I think that eventually this is going to end in this situation in which you are sitting in a chair in a hotel room watching other people do what you used to do. And I don't need to elaborate on the details. We need to go into that, but that's, that's where you're going.

John Shull 51:07

Well, all right, can we just go into our top five? We've

Nick VinZant 51:11

already been that's just where you're going. Point that out. Look, if you want to go in that, look, if that's your thing, and that's ultimately the direction that you want to go, then that is fine. But I'm telling you that that is the direction that you are going.

John Shull 51:25

I just want to move on to her top five now. I don't I need, I need to process that. I'm gonna need a couple of days to think about that.

Nick VinZant 51:33

Needed a couple of days to think about it right now, right? You're gonna have to, I'm just saying, right? That's why on the tombstone I'm gonna have my wife never could play sports because people are not held accountable enough anymore, and I think that they need to be like you. Got to tell people what you really like. Look, if a real friend is going to tell you the truth, and I'm sorry for being a real friend,

John Shull 51:56

what does it feel to have been born in the 30s because you're acting like an old grumpy lump against right now.

Nick VinZant 52:02

Oh, I never heard the phrase grumpy lump against, but I'm gonna steal that. Did you just come up with it? Or is that like a thing that you say a lot?

John Shull 52:10

I mean, I say from time to time, it's out of one of the kids books.

Nick VinZant 52:13

Oh, you should have stole it. I like grumpa lumpigous, Hey, grumpa lumpic gas. I

John Shull 52:20

mean, it's okay. I don't know it's fine.

Nick VinZant 52:22

All right. Are you ready? This is going to be not a great segue from talking about us getting older to talking about the worst yard chores that we have to do.

John Shull 52:30

Yeah, it's a great segue because yard chores stink.

Nick VinZant 52:36

Yes, they do, yes they do. All right, so our top five is top five worst yard chores. What's your number five?

John Shull 52:46

So this list was actually quite easy to put together. I didn't think there'd be five that I truly despise, but there is. So here's my number five, and that's raking leaves.

Nick VinZant 52:56

Oh, I agree. I have raking leaves a little bit different, a little bit higher on the list, but I agree with raking leads. Why do you just test raking leads?

John Shull 53:06

It's just time consuming, and no matter what I do every year, so right? You do it usually in the spring and the fall, right? And every time I do it, I get these massive blisters on my hands. Oh, boy, here for those of you that that aren't that don't see this video, Nick just gave me the look like my dad gave me when he found out I was smoking pot in high school, like he was very disappointed in me. What? What's wrong with getting blisters on your hands from doing yard work?

Nick VinZant 53:37

If you're getting blisters on your hand from a little bit of yard work, then you better do something to fix your soft, little, delicate baby hands.

John Shull 53:44

But

John Shull 53:44

I get them like, not, I don't get them in the, like, the normal spot, because it's where I hold the rake. Like, I get them

Nick VinZant 53:53

like, what like, How are you holding the rake that you get them in? Like, on your elbow. What are you doing? Are you holding the rake like it's a javelin.

John Shull 54:03

All I can say is, you've seen me eat all right? Yeah, I I also hold things weirdly. So I don't know, I have, like, a system. I don't know how to describe it. I just, I get blisters and weird spots on my hand. Has nothing to do with me not having working man's hands. It's just where I hold the rake is not a normal spot where you use it a lot.

Nick VinZant 54:30

Do you hold other things, not other things in that sense, but like, do you hold other chore related things in the same way? Or did you just have no I just have a very unique way to hold the rake.

John Shull 54:43

Let's have a I have a system, and I have a way that I rake leaves, and that's why I rake leaves this way. That's just the way it is.

Nick VinZant 54:55

Your head hit the window. Oh,

Speaker 2 54:57

you.

Nick VinZant 55:03

Oh, I'm sorry, man, go get you like over there. Go get a chocolate chip. You'll feel better. Sun. Hit the window. Get

John Shull 55:11

your kids under control over there,

Nick VinZant 55:14

I believe that you know what, the best way to learn not to bang your head against the window is to bang your head against the window and find out how much it hurts. School of hard knocks over here. You're probably over there putting cellophane all over everything, trying to house proof the whole world, right? With your dainty little baby hand. I'm sorry you had to go outside and do some work. Get some calluses on there. I'd be ashamed.

John Shull 55:35

What's your number five?

Speaker 2 55:37

My

Nick VinZant 55:37

number five is edging. I am a firm believer that if you are not bleeding or injured, you did not edge properly.

John Shull 55:48

So my number four is weed whacking or weed whipping, because of the same reason, if you are not bleeding, if your ankles are not lacerated after a session of weed whacking or whipping. You're you're not doing it right, but God dang it, that sucks, and those wounds take at least a week to heal.

Nick VinZant 56:08

Oh yeah, I have some on my shins and ankle area right now for where I've been hit by rocks, children's toys, the whip part of the thing, if you are not bleeding, you have not edged or weed whacked properly. I firmly believe that, and I am See, this is what I'm talking about, John, this is what I'm talking about. You have the potential, but you're not using it. You understand the fundamentals, but you're not applying them right, like you understand that you got to get bloody weed whacking, but then you're over there and you do stuff like complaining about getting calluses on your little, soft, little baby hands, because you raking. You can't do that. You gotta continue in the bloody weed whacking direction, and go away from the complaining about my baby hands. Direction.

John Shull 56:50

For one, I never said I would. Never really complained about the calluses. I just said, you get blisters and they suck. I didn't like say it ruins my life, that I never do it again.

Nick VinZant 57:01

You're

John Shull 57:02

the one who took it to that extreme,

Nick VinZant 57:04

because I don't understand the difference, right? Like I wouldn't even breathe something. I wouldn't even bring something like that up. I don't complain about hard work. Just do the job. Get it done.

John Shull 57:14

What's your number four? Jethro toll.

Nick VinZant 57:17

I never can remember who Jethro toll is. What song did they sing?

John Shull 57:23

I don't even know. I do. You know what? I don't even know.

Nick VinZant 57:25

You don't know either you did. You

John Shull 57:26

don't think

Nick VinZant 57:27

you do. You feel like you used it appropriately, like, are you gonna look it up and be like, Ah, crap. I meant Jefferson Airplane.

John Shull 57:33

Let's see in a

Nick VinZant 57:37

little bit.

John Shull 57:42

Yeah. Let's see thick as a brick. Songs from the wood woods. Yeah, I don't know. Man, I

Nick VinZant 57:50

don't know you use them Aqua inappropriately, didn't

John Shull 57:53

you? Aqua lung is their most famous song,

Nick VinZant 57:57

okay,

John Shull 57:58

yeah, what makes sense?

Nick VinZant 58:00

My number four is raking, just because it feels like a total waste of time. Like, do I really need to rake any of this stuff up? It's just going to decompose on the ground. I don't feel like I just think like raking is a waste of time. Like, why am I doing this? I find like, kind of the pattern that you create to be rewarding and interesting, but I just think raking is a waste

John Shull 58:21

agree with you on that. My number three is cleaning gutters. But really, like any kind of, you know, seasonal roof gutter work in general, for two reasons. For me, one, I don't like heights, and two, like it's just I, I feel like I spent four hours cleaning out the gutters and like I didn't do anything very unrewarding work.

Nick VinZant 58:49

Why don't you put those little like the sieve on the top of it? Why don't you get the little mesh and put it on there so you don't have to clean the gutters?

John Shull 58:56

So we, we tried the mesh and birds ate.

Nick VinZant 58:59

You're gonna give me a real explanation, aren't you?

John Shull 59:04

What came through birds and stuff, birds and squirrels, like they would punch holes in it and yeah, so then, then they recommended us to use, like, an actual, like, covering, but we just haven't done that yet. So I'll sit here and complain. I'll sit here and complain about doing it instead.

Nick VinZant 59:22

Okay, I actually respect that. My number three is pressure washing.

John Shull 59:27

Oh, I almost put that on, but I left it off, but it's, yeah, it's not fun. Like, I think people feel like it's, you know, like, like, it's this grandiose thing. No, it kind of sucks.

Nick VinZant 59:39

Oh, I find it in I find pressure washing to me, I find it enjoyable for a little bit. There's something oddly satisfying about it, but then two hours later, like, oh my god, I'm still pressure washing. Like, it takes too long. If it took only, like 1520 minutes, I would love

John Shull 59:58

it. It's. Once again, it's one of those things that, to me, is not rewarding, because tomorrow it's like, when you dust and then the same spot the next day has more dust on it. It's like, pressure washing, pressure wash something, and the next day it dirts back. Like, what the f did I spend five hours doing? Then

Nick VinZant 1:00:16

that's just, this is just life. Man. I would love it if you could just do something one time, and then like, hey, look, you only got to mow the yard once. But, no, you have to mow it once a week or every 10 days for three or four months a year for the rest of your life.

John Shull 1:00:31

All right, my number, speaking of something that you have to do, it seems every friggin season, is weed.

Nick VinZant 1:00:39

Oh, it's

John Shull 1:00:40

my weeding, weeding. It's the worst.

Nick VinZant 1:00:43

I have nothing else to offer to that. Besides, that's also my number two.

John Shull 1:00:48

Oh, okay,

Nick VinZant 1:00:49

what's your number one gonna be? Then

John Shull 1:00:51

what's your number one gonna be? Go

Speaker 2 1:00:55

first.

John Shull 1:00:56

My number one is picking up dog crap.

Nick VinZant 1:01:00

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, I should have put I mean, yeah, it's just gross and disgusting, and not something you want to do. You have a bigger dog, don't you?

John Shull 1:01:09

Yeah, 100 pound dog. And I did something that I normally don't do this winter, and I recommend this to all pet owners, is even when it was frozen outside, I went outside, like, every month in the winter and did it because usually I wait, right? You wait from like, December to March, because it's too cold and the ground freezes. So like, you know, the poop freezes into the ground, essentially, because we get snow, blah, blah, blah. This year, I went out there and I didn't care if there was four inches of snow. I dug that up because I didn't. I didn't I didn't want the thought to come, and then you spend, I think it was two years ago, I had 14 bags of dog shit.

Nick VinZant 1:01:49

Why don't you just pick it up? When the dog goes like the dog poops, you pick it up. Whole problem,

John Shull 1:01:57

I mean, because then you, I mean that that sounds great in theory, right? But then you gotta, like, wait out there. You have to watch him, like, let him go. Like, let the dog go. You know, I don't want to stand by the door and wait for him to poop and then go out there and pick it up. I got things to do. You know what I mean, why

Nick VinZant 1:02:14

don't you just wait for the dog to come back inside and then go out where they poop? Like, this is not a huge amount of effort. I don't understand the idea that you once went what seems to be three, maybe four months without picking up 100 pound dog poop in your yard.

John Shull 1:02:30

I think, once again, I just think you are underestimating I mean, the Midwest, the northeast, we go into a deep freeze like people don't. I don't want to go outside at nine o'clock at night to pick up dog shit like I just don't want to do it.

Nick VinZant 1:02:47

Okay, so if you have 100 pound dog, would you say that 100 pound dog probably has a poop, might weigh a pound each poop,

John Shull 1:02:57

sure. I mean, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. I could tell you, it's they're big. I mean, he he's a Great Pyrenees. He shits like a Great Pyrenees does.

Nick VinZant 1:03:07

Okay, so let's just assume each poop is one pound. If you went four months without picking up dog poop, you're talking about 120 to 150 pounds of dog poop in your backyard. You just got let 100 point, but that's the math. That's the math. Even if you go three months, that's 90 to 100 pounds of dog poop sitting in your backyard, and you're gonna allow that to happen.

John Shull 1:03:34

I can I'm sure it was not four months. I can guarantee you it was between two and three months, though, so yes, we'll say between 6090 pounds of dog crap in my backyard. Yes, that's probably more and accurate

Nick VinZant 1:03:49

when you think about it like that. That sounds really disgusting. Your house sounds like a health nightmare. I am almost to the point where I need feel like I maybe I should tip off child protective services that you're living in a plague zone.

John Shull 1:04:05

That's really not that bad. He Yeah, it's not that bad.

Nick VinZant 1:04:08

It sounds pretty bad. Sounds like you have a lot of poop. Like, if I let the dog, if my wife lets the dog out and she doesn't pick up the poop, because sometimes she does that, I'm not going to let it go more than a day, maybe two days, and I'm like, wow, that's a lot of dog poop in the backyard. I should pick that up.

John Shull 1:04:28

I mean, now it's once a week, like, it's fine. I mean, dogs poop every other day, maybe every day, it's only seven piles of dog crap at the most. Like, it's not that bad.

Nick VinZant 1:04:38

Okay, I think that you need to reevaluate these decisions, but like, Look, I'm not living your life. If that's the way that you wanted to live your life surrounded by dog shit, then

Speaker 2 1:04:47

go

John Shull 1:04:49

ahead. What's your number one?

Nick VinZant 1:04:51

Gutters. Who had a voice? Crack.

John Shull 1:04:53

Gutters, good. Good

Nick VinZant 1:04:56

gutters. I. Live in Seattle, where it's rainy and the roofs are steep, and cleaning out your gutters is essentially risking your life. You are risking your life when you go up there to try to clean out the gutters like there's only a 5050, chance you're coming back alive. You have to say goodbye to your wife and kids when you go clean the gutters in Seattle, because you might not come

Speaker 2 1:05:17

back.

John Shull 1:05:19

Well, you've made it every year. So can't be that bad.

Speaker 2 1:05:21

I have

Nick VinZant 1:05:22

a system. It's the importance of having a system and sticking to the system. I'm not the kind of person that's going to let something linger for two to three months when the job needs to be done and get the job done.

John Shull 1:05:32

That was one time, and I've learned from

Speaker 2 1:05:35

it.

Nick VinZant 1:05:38

Jury's still out on that one, but I hope you have, that's I hope you have. Do you have anything in your honorable

John Shull 1:05:46

mention? Not really. I mean, no, not for power washing. I This one's just kind of me specific. But like, picking up, I have a crab apple tree, yeah? Picking up the crap the crab apples. Like, just sucks. Like, yeah, or I also have a pear tree, but the like, I've developed a system and have gotten that down pat, but, yeah, just picking up fruit like that is just nuts.

Nick VinZant 1:06:14

Do you eat the pears

John Shull 1:06:17

time at a time? I mean, of course, we moved in this house and there's a pear tree. Like, why couldn't there be, you know, an apple tree or anything,

Nick VinZant 1:06:27

you have an apple crab apple tree, why don't you eat the crab apples?

John Shull 1:06:31

Once again, no one eats crab apples or pears. Like,

Nick VinZant 1:06:34

oh, first of all, I eat pears. Now you look like a man who's been eating lots of crab apples. You're grumpy. Ass over there.

John Shull 1:06:42

Thank you. That's because I literally just eating crabapples right now. I don't

Nick VinZant 1:06:48

know if I've actually ever had a crab you know what? I'm not talking about, god. Oh my god, this is your dream episode. All we've done is talk about the crab apples and submarines and all these old man things. What's the weather? What's the weather in Monterey right now?

Speaker 2 1:07:07

I don't

John Shull 1:07:09

know, but I could tell you that this morning in Antarctica, it was minus 67 degrees. Was the temperature there? That's crazy cold.

Nick VinZant 1:07:17

I need the temperature. And what I mean, Antarctica is a big place. It's like, saying the temperature in Australia, right? I need, it needs to be more localized like that for me to be was it really negative 60?

John Shull 1:07:28

Yeah.

Nick VinZant 1:07:29

Wait, so you have Antarctica on your phone, and every time you're like, oh, wow, it's cold.

Speaker 2 1:07:35

Yeah,

Nick VinZant 1:07:35

it's gonna be cold tomorrow too. Oh, it's cold. Yeah, Antarctica,

John Shull 1:07:39

without getting into gory details. It's part of my morning routine where I look up, you know, weather other.

Nick VinZant 1:07:48

Do you look up the difference, though? Now, do you look at the weather in Antarctica and the Arctic? Do you compare the two? Are you just looking at one over the other? Wow.

John Shull 1:07:59

Yeah, just I we've we've gone over this. I have like, five or six places, and I just look them over, and I'm like, oh, it's gonna be nice and sunny in Berlin today, or it's gonna be cold in Brisbane, you know, like, it is what it is.

Nick VinZant 1:08:12

Yeah, I'm gonna go outside and play baseball with my kids. Sit there, look at the weather. I don't know. Like I would then be, I don't understand how you have Antarctica and not the Arctic, because then I would be curious as to what the difference is like. Why do you want one pole and not the other

John Shull 1:08:29

finger? Kids running into Windows again? You should go save them.

Nick VinZant 1:08:32

He did run into a window, right? Like, that's not really speaking very highly of my genetic stock. My son comes down here crying because he ran into a window. Okay, that's going to go ahead and do it for this. Episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We love to hear from people really appreciate it helps out the show and let us know what you think is the worst yard chore. I think that's the incredible thing about math that when you actually start to add it up, what seems small can suddenly seem ridiculous, like, oh, John's not picking up the dog poop in the back of his yard. Oh, he's got 90 pounds of dog poop in the back of his yard. I hard math, it adds up.


Oil and Gas Industry Expert Dr. Carole Nakhle

Oil runs the world. And right now the oil and gas industry is going through a major disruption because of the war in Iran. Oil prices are rising and there’s no end in sight. So, what does this mean for you?

Oil, Gas and Energy sector expert Dr. Carole Nakhle joins us to explain where the price of oil is headed, the major factors influencing prices at the pump and more.

Then, it’s Club Sandwiches and Grilled Cheese vs. Reubens and Cubans as we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Sandwiches

00:00: Introducing Dr. Carole Nakhle

01:09: Why Gas Prices are Rising

03:25: How Oil Prices Impact the World Economy

05:54: What $200 a Barrell Would Look Like

08:24: Iran and Oil

09:18: History of Oil Shocks

12:56: How Long Before the Worst Case Scenario

14:05: The Importance of the Straight of Hormuz

16:04: Releasing The Strategic Petroleum Reserves

17:36: Getting Back to Normal

21:02: Pointless

49:34: Top 5 Sanwiches

Contact the Show

Dr. Carole Nakhle Crystol Energy

Dr. Carole Nakhle LinkedIn

Interview with Oil and Gas Expert Dr. Carole Nahkle

Nick VinZant 0:11

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, oil and sandwiches.

Dr. Carole Nahkle 0:19

We definitely have a major shock that has affected the biggest oil and gas producers and exporters in the world. You're talking about Iran, and I have the feeling that many have underestimated the ability of Iran to cause so much disruption. People don't realize that actually, volatility is fantastic business for some traders.

Nick VinZant 0:42

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she is an expert in something that runs the world economy, but is also going through a major period of disruption. This is oil gas and energy expert, Dr Carol knockley, what's happening with the energy sector, slash oil and gas industry right now,

Dr. Carole Nahkle 1:15

many people are trying to get their head around what is happening today, but we definitely have a major shock that has affected the biggest oil and gas producers and exporters in the world. We have seen, not only energy infrastructure in the region, in countries that have nothing to do with with the war. By the way, like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, even Iraq and Bahrain, these countries have nothing to do with all, but they happen to be in that neighborhood, and Iran has been attacking their energy infrastructure. But I would say the biggest disruption that we are seeing today is because the Iranians have blocked the Strait of Hormuz. And the Strait of Hormuz is a very tiny water passage whereby you have almost 20% of global oil trade. So over 20% of the oil that is traded globally comes through that little narrow strait. And the same thing for liquefied natural gas, or what we call LNG, also, around 20% goes through that Strait, and as a result, we have serious supply disruption in the world from oil and gas. And that's why we're seeing prices jumping almost every day. And we are seeing levels that we have not seen for years now.

Nick VinZant 2:35

Is this, essentially, when you get down to it, supply and demand, I

Dr. Carole Nahkle 2:39

think it's primarily supply at the moment, so what we have is a supply shock. But I wouldn't say that's the only direction. This is not the only direction we're heading into, because if, for example, the US convinces other powers, such as the French or other European powers, or even Asian like the Chinese or the Japanese to help them to secure the oil tankers going through the Strait of Hormuz. Then as long as we see some tankers moving across that Strait, it kind of take away some of the pressure we are seeing on oil prices. And of course, if the war ends tomorrow, then we should see a rapid correction in prices. However, at the moment, we're really all sailing in the fog. Nobody knows how long the kind of current disruptions are going to continue.

Nick VinZant 3:25

How does this kind of ripple throughout the whole rest of the economy?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 3:29

Often we don't understand the importance of oil to our modern society. I mean, it's amazing. There's an industry which is more than a century old and still has such a major impact on global economy, I would say oil is king in the transport sector. Even if you have electric vehicles, they are not big enough to cause a dent in the demand for oil. But also, if you where you're sitting. Now, if you look around you, many products have an oil component into them, plastic, medicine, oil, perfume, makeup, some clothes. So there is always an element of petroleum into debt, and when you have this input becoming more expensive, then the higher cost is going to affect the final price of some of the products that we are buying. So this is where oil has an impact on the economy. However, today, oil is by far less important than what we saw in the 70s. So for those of you people you know who are interested, they can go online check the oil crisis of 1973 and they would see people queuing at petrol stations in the US. A huge economic problem resulted from that. But that's when oil was really much more important, because we did not develop alternatives our dependence on oil in terms of intensity, oil intensity is half what it used to be in the 70s, and that's why I want to say here something that may sound a bit crazy, but for oil price. Is to be only hovering around 100 is not too bad, given the scale of the problem that we have in the Middle East. If the same crisis would have happened perhaps 2030, years ago, I bet you would have seen prices perhaps 200 or even much higher than that.

Nick VinZant 5:18

Yeah, that's one thing that I've noticed is like, Oh, I thought this would be worse by now, considering how big of a problem that this seems to be over there exactly, if you were to kind of quantify this in terms of the importance of the global economy, because I think in terms of like one through 10, so to speak, in the 1970s it would have been like number 123,

Dr. Carole Nahkle 5:42

so let's say maybe in the 70s, it was one because it was accounting for more than on its own, for more than half of our needs, globally, energy needs. And today it's perhaps three.

Nick VinZant 5:54

So one of the things that has kind of come out as Iran said, oil could be $200 a barrel. What would that look like?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 6:02

Not pleasant. It's going to learn look nasty, but people don't realize that. Actually, we've been there before, 2008 just before the financial crisis and the global economic crisis, prices were above perhaps $200 a barrel. Also around 2022. We saw prices much higher than what we way, much higher than what we are seeing today. That's when Russia invaded Ukraine. But most importantly, when we started this year in January, everybody was expecting that we were going to have what we call surplus in supply. There is much more supply than what we needed, and that kind of gave us some safety cushions. However, if we started the year in an already tight situation where demand would be booming and supply wouldn't have enough supply, then I would say it would have been a much nastier scenario. So yes, I think the Iranians want to see $200 a barrel, because they think that's what causes some serious economic pain. But I mean, honestly, I think they need to revisit the market fundamentals and understand that all markets today are very different from when they were in the 70s and the 80s.

Nick VinZant 7:13

Is this more kind of a political problem than it is an actual economic problem then, because here in the United States, like gas prices go up, people are going to lose their minds.

Dr. Carole Nahkle 7:27

I would say it's more of a political problem. It was caused by a political problem. Every time prices of energy increase, they become a political problem because governments don't like to see energy prices increasing, because energy meets our basic needs. And if you have discontent among people, the average person in the street, because they are paying more now on higher energy prices, especially if they did not really vote for that problem to happen as then you you have to think twice and think, Oh, my goodness, what shall I do? And this is, for me, the danger, because often I have seen problems caused by governments overreacting to ease pressure on prices than by the actual problem itself. So the reason why we had queues in those pictures in the 70s is not that because we suddenly did not have oil. It's just governments introduced, let's say some rationing.

Nick VinZant 8:24

How bad is it that it's happening in Iran? Could this be hap could? Would this have been worse if it was happening in another country?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 8:31

I would say yes, if the same problem would have occurred elsewhere, not let's say a war on Iran, but a war, a war, let's say on Nigeria, or a war on Venezuela would not have seen the same impact. The second part I want to say is that you're talking about Iran, and I have the feeling that many have underestimated the ability of Iran to cause so much disruption.

Nick VinZant 8:57

Do you feel like Iran's strategy is specifically just to target the price of oil, and if they can just make oil?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 9:04

Yes, definitely. I mean, they know. They know how important energy prices are for the West, for democratic governments, and for especially for those who are heading towards elections.

Nick VinZant 9:18

When you kind of look at this from an oil and gas energy perspective, compared to other events that have happened throughout recent history. Where would this kind of compare? Is this bigger, smaller? The same?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 9:30

Well, in terms of scale, it is the biggest disruption, because we have never seen disruption from the Strait of Hormuz to this level, and we did see big disruption around the Iran Iraq war in the 80s, but it was more contained in terms of impact on oil prices. No, it's actually one of the milder crises that we have seen, if want to identify the major supply shocks that have happened throughout the history of the industry, yeah.

Nick VinZant 10:00

Do you think that that impact on kind of the prices, Will that continue being less than other crises into the future? Or is that just No, that's just at the moment.

Dr. Carole Nahkle 10:15

It depends on whether we are going to see the worst case scenario. We're not in the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is not just a lasting war, a lasting conflict, lasting disruptions. For me coming from the region. The last in the worst case scenario would entail having the other countries in the region, the other major oil producers in the region, and you are talking about giants Saudi Arabia, for example, dragged into the war beyond what they we have seen so far, in a sense that they will join this war more actively. That while my that might perhaps accelerate the end of the war. But I think it will again, the damage there might become more widespread in a sense that Iran might become more aggressive in its retaliation, and it would really perhaps inflict more serious damage on the infrastructure, energy infrastructure in the region. And also there are its proxies, the Houthis and Hezbollah and Lebanon. They are, yes, much more weaker than perhaps, before, but they can still also cause trouble elsewhere.

Nick VinZant 11:31

You may have kind of touched on this already, but one of the things that I didn't understand was like, Well, why is Iran attacking other countries? I didn't understand that part of

Dr. Carole Nahkle 11:40

it, that was the question that I asked myself angrily, when the when the conflict started. But I think what they want to cause is disruption. They want to cause panic. They want to try to use the Gulf countries to as a tool to exercise pressure on on the US on Iran to end their attacks, because they say, Look, guys, we are suffering here. We have to bring this to an end. But there's also another reason, which could be not necessarily a standalone reason, but supplementing what I just said, that the fact that Iran has certain missiles short range makes those countries an easier target than, let's say, using long haul missiles. Excuse my non technical jargon. I'm not a military expert, yes, but it's an easier target to attack your neighbor than to send your missile all the way, let's say, to Tel Aviv or elsewhere.

Nick VinZant 12:38

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions

Dr. Carole Nahkle 12:42

about this. Oh, my goodness. Tell me about it.

Nick VinZant 12:45

What was your first reaction when this broke out?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 12:48

I asked why. I asked why now? Because I know that there were ongoing negotiations.

Nick VinZant 12:56

Is there a timeline you would say that? Like, okay, if this goes on for a total of three months, if it goes on for six months, like, where do you think in that timeline? This gets really

Dr. Carole Nahkle 13:05

bad whenever you sail in the fog without any clear end insight that creates volatility in the market. So and you can see it actually. When you observe the price, how it is traded every day, you can see it's going up and down, up and down, up and down. So that makes it very difficult to plan, to invest, to prepare clear budgets. Let's say for several years that said we should not lose sight of the potential impact on demand. There is what we call demand destruction. We know that demand reacts to higher prices, so the longer we remain in this high, high priced territory, the more the demand destruction is going to be visible, and that, by itself, can help in easing the pressure on prices. So it's never one card or one factor. It's a combination. It's very dynamic. But the rule of thumb today, I would say, the more disruptions we have from the region, the longer they last, the more we are likely to stay in the current price level that we are seeing.

Nick VinZant 14:05

Is there a more strategically important area in terms of oil and gas than the Strait of Hormuz?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 14:10

No in terms of capacity, that is the most important, and not only in terms of volume, but also because there is no other options. So for example, when we had the issue in the Red Sea, whether because of the attacks that we saw in the Red Sea, or when there was a big ship, was it evergreen that blocked, for example, the Suez Canal stuck there? Yeah. So it was not the end of the world, because ships could go around the, say, African continent, and then reach, let's say, the European market, etc. So it just added delays to the routes that the ships were taking, but it did not cause losses of supply. The Strait of Hormuz is really like the exit of a lake. You don't have any other option. Who benefits? Oh, my goodness, I can think of quite a few people don't realize that actually vola. Facility is fantastic business for some traders, because they make a lot of money from buying and selling. Buying and selling, you know, and they are on high buy they sell. That. I can see oil producers outside the region are benefiting a lot, even though, for example, the US is a peculiar state, because they are big consumer, but they are also big producer. So I think the American oil producers may be benefiting from windfalls, you know, higher profits, abnormal profits, because of these high prices. I would say other producers around the world are also benefiting from those prices. People who have, who run, let's say, shipping industry, the rate of renting a tanker, for example, has increased significantly. So it's never going to be a clear cut that all we only have losers because we're thinking from our perspective as consumers. I'm pretty sure there are lots of people out there that I have not mentioned that are also benefiting from what's going on in the region.

Nick VinZant 16:04

So the United States has the strategic oil preserve, or whatever the exact name of it is. Does releasing that make a difference, or is that just a drop in the bucket?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 16:15

I mean, it does definitely make a difference, and they are called strategic petroleum reserves, SPR. And the reason why we accumulate them is exactly for these kind of situations, you put oil in storage so that if there is a serious shortage in the market, you can compensate by releasing some of those and therefore ease the pressure on price. And I think if we did not have those in reserves, you would have seen probably oil prices much higher than the levels that we are seeing today. So it's not that their release is going to really bring oil prices back to 60 when the war is ongoing in the Middle East. For me, I see the importance of the sprs or the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is to put a lid or a ceiling on prices and stop them from going at much higher levels than we would have seen if we did not have those sprs. But of course, there are lots of questions that we want to know about the release. It's not like you open the tap, those barrels suddenly start flowing in the market. They may take time to hit the market, actually. And I think there were some details still missing that people want to know what kind of oil will be released, because not all oil is the same. There are different grades, different types, so there are still missing details, but at least it gives some kind of safety cushion.

Nick VinZant 17:36

How long does it kind of take once things go back to normal, to get back to normal, like, let's just say this all ends today, right? As we're done, how long would it take for everything to kind of kick back on and be normal again? I think

Dr. Carole Nahkle 17:51

we should go back to normality pretty quickly again, because this is not like we lost production or fields have been set on fire, as we saw, for example, with the Gulf War many years ago, those fields are still producing, but producers have reduced their production rate because they have run out of places to store their oil produce because they cannot export it. So while it's not going to be immediate, let's say suddenly opening the tab, because sometimes it takes some time to restart production from an existing field. You know, it's a bit technically, a little bit more challenging, but we don't have structural damage to say, oh, it's going to take a long, long time. So I would say relatively, quite quickly we can go back to normality. And that's why, if you saw last week oil prices, the second we start talking about, oh, perhaps the war is going to end very soon. We saw prices dropping to 80 from 120 to 80 suddenly. But then when people saw, Oh, my goodness, that's going to last a bit longer. Then we went back to the 100 territory

Nick VinZant 18:54

for the people who are in that region. Are they really worried about oil, or are they more looking at the political ramifications of all of this, like, I think in the United States, most people are just, oh, gosh, the price of oil, right? And then everything else filters from that. Is that the same in that region? Or is there other what's kind of the number one thing that they're concerned about?

Dr. Carole Nahkle 19:20

They are worried, yes, because of, you know, what happens next, but they are also angry because they didn't ask for what's happening at the moment, and because they have been attacked. But typically, when you think of the Middle East, you tend to think of Israel and Hamas and Lebanon, and they are fighting all the time, and there is a bit there's instability, but the Gulf region has invested a lot of time, money and effort to create this image of a safe haven, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, even Saudi Arabia later on, announcing massive projects, massive investment opportunities across the economy, AI tourism, Europe. You name it, you know, and then suddenly you have the shock happening that kind of, I don't want to be too pessimistic and too dramatic and say destroys, destroyed everything that the region has built, but has definitely changed the risk perception that you would usually allocate to the region. People who want to put more money in the region. In the future, they'd be thinking twice. People who want to move and live in the region, you know, like expats who want to go and settle in the region, they will be thinking twice. It's like, Oh, hold on a minute. We thought it was all about Lebanon and Gaza. So this is, I would say, where the anger and the frustration comes from much more than what are they worried about and whether the oil price will go up or down.

Nick VinZant 20:46

I want to thank Dr nahi so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you think cereal is a

John Shull 21:09

soup? No, absolutely not.

Nick VinZant 21:13

Oh, I don't know if I would go so far as to say absolutely not. What's okay, what's the difference between chicken noodle soup and cinnamon toast crunch in a bowl.

John Shull 21:23

So here's the thing, I do think soup, or I do think cereal can become a soup, but at you know, it at its premise, at its core, cereal is not a soup. A soup is soupy.

Nick VinZant 21:38

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense, right? Like, I understand the idea that you just don't want to say that cereal is a soup, which I agree with, because I feel like cereal is not a soup, but you can't actually, like, break it down into any sort of rational argument why it is not.

John Shull 21:53

Yeah, cereal, at its core, is meant to be eaten, like with a not being soggy. As soon as it gets soggy, it's a soup.

Nick VinZant 22:03

I polled the audience about this, and everybody, including myself, overwhelmingly agrees with this. So the question was, do you think cereal is a soup? 90% of people said no. 10% said technically yes, but I just feel like it's not which is where I would sit on the poll results as well. Like, I don't think that it is, but I don't have any sort of explanation for why it's not. I don't want to get into it, but kind of like, the is a hot dog, a sandwich? Yeah, it is, but I just don't feel like it is. It is not, technically, yes, but in spirit, it is not.

John Shull 22:38

That's the other thing, technically, no, it is not a sandwich.

Nick VinZant 22:43

Yes, dog, do we not we have to talk about how you say sandwich. Oh, my God, I can hear my dog throwing up in the other room.

John Shull 22:54

That's terrible and terrifying. I'm sorry, buddy. Oh yeah, I got to clean it up on your birthday.

Nick VinZant 23:01

Clean it up. Perfect. Oh, I was wondering if you're gonna walk it in there. Okay, ask your question about my birthday. Let's get let's hear it. So we're recording this on my birthday. John is very excited about it. I personally could care less about my birthday.

John Shull 23:13

My question to you is, do you care less about birthdays as you get older, or should we really care less about birthdays when we're younger and care more about them as we grow old?

Nick VinZant 23:25

No, I think that you should care much less about them as you get older, because you kind of don't really want to acknowledge that it's your birthday and that you are getting older because your birthday no longer matches the way that you feel like I'm in my 40s. I feel like I'm still a 20 year old person. You have to care about your birthdays when you're young, because that's like the most exciting day of your whole life. Like your birthday, you look forward? Do you okay when you were a little kid, did you What did you look forward to? More your birthday or Christmas?

John Shull 23:58

Well, my father ruined Christmas at a very young age for me, so I'll say my birthday. Oh, was

Nick VinZant 24:03

this one was was it on Christmas when you walked in on him and your mother having sex? Oh, boy,

John Shull 24:08

um, was it on Christmas? No, it wasn't. I'll say my birthday, because you, you, you know, I usually had a birthday party, and that was fun as friends,

Nick VinZant 24:21

you had a birthday party? I didn't get a birthday party.

John Shull 24:23

I did I I'd say from like, seven to 12, I probably had birthday parties.

Nick VinZant 24:29

Wow, I never got a birthday party. That was like, no. Well, like, Hey, Dad, can I have a birthday party? He's like, you can have some presents here at the house, not spending any more money on it. You think I'm going to take you to, take you to, like, Sky Zone, or whatever, to jump around a trampoline? You're your damn mind. Me, mom will be here and go outside and play with a stick.

John Shull 24:50

And sounds about right? I mean, our fathers aren't too far off. But you know, my mother, fortunately, would, you know, plan something?

Nick VinZant 24:59

I. Think, I guess my mother did love me.

John Shull 25:03

Probably not, probably not. It's hard to love you. I think

Nick VinZant 25:07

I could see that. Okay, all right.

Speaker 1 25:09

Was that it's

Nick VinZant 25:10

your shout out. So whatever, whatever you next, wow me.

John Shull 25:14

I'm feeling I'm feeling refreshed, I'm feeling good. You ever just wake up and you okay? You just feel good?

Nick VinZant 25:21

Not Not anymore. I mean, not at my age. No, that's why I don't really want to think about my birthday very much, because it's only going to get worse. I mean, your life, I would say, physically, you are starting to go downhill, probably after you're 27

John Shull 25:37

Oh, I did want to tell you, remember a couple weeks ago, you asked me when was the last time I had fully sprinted? Yeah, okay, okay, well, I can confirm for you that I have fully sprinted within the last three days.

Nick VinZant 25:56

What any particular reason that I'm going to be interested about, or did you just decide I'm gonna go run?

John Shull 26:02

No, by i My daughter has been riding her bike, and I've been running behind her, and she told me she could beat me to a spot, and I sprinted as fast and hard as I could for about three seconds. I beat her, but I sprinted. So there you go. I told you you wouldn't care.

Nick VinZant 26:19

Was it close, or did you beat her by a good amount?

John Shull 26:21

I wasn't really fair. It's kind of like how I would beat a buffalo from a standing stop, standing start. You know, by the by the time she got pedaling fast enough, I was already there.

Nick VinZant 26:34

Well, how far was the distance like? Do you feel like you gave her an appropriate amount of time to see if she's actually faster on a bike than you are sprinting, or did you specifically set the parameters so that she could not win?

John Shull 26:46

Yeah, it was like, I was running by her, and as I was running by her, I'm like, I'm gonna beat her to that that truck up there. So, but I just like, I had a sprinter, she would have beat me.

Nick VinZant 26:56

So, oh yeah, I've reached. My sons have reached the age where I have to try like, Oh, I got to put some effort into this, and I'm not going down this road with you turning and this is a dad podcast that you want to talk about how you play dolls or whatever it is that you do with your daughters.

John Shull 27:11

It's a never mind. We're the it doesn't matter. All right. Shout outs. Let's see hope. Herbert, I found that one in the weeds. I don't even know about her.

Nick VinZant 27:22

I like the name. You don't hear a lot of hopes. I've known a hope and a faith.

Speaker 1 27:26

Okay? What about a heaven? No.

Nick VinZant 27:30

Do you think that there are any twins out there named Deja and Vu? Yes, there has to be, right? There has? There has to be. If they're not, it's a huge missed opportunity. Let's see

John Shull 27:42

Simon Chaney Lloyd, Howard Pauline, Schaefer, Aaron Howell. Barry Sutton, I like a good Berry. I feel like there's not enough berries in the world.

Nick VinZant 27:53

Did you say? Aaron Howell, yes, okay, I was good friends growing up with a kid named Aaron Howell. And every once in a while, I'll still hear from Aaron Howell.

John Shull 28:08

Does Aaron Howell follow our social media channels?

Nick VinZant 28:12

I don't know. I don't know what Aaron Howell is doing. Like are you? Are you in touch with most of your early, early childhood friends, like the first friends that you ever had. Are you still in touch with them? Still friends with them?

John Shull 28:25

No, I have one friend from my childhood at all, actually, that I still that means one of my best friends. You met him, and we still talk about the time that you convinced him to do a shot of grand Marine, yeah, that was the guy.

Nick VinZant 28:44

Yes, good. I'm glad that I can participate in ruining his day, as well as yours, anytime that other people can have their times ruined.

John Shull 28:52

Not only did you ruin his day, but he he will not do random shots anymore because of you so

Nick VinZant 28:59

well, that's his fault. Now he can buck up a little bit, tell him to wipe his eyes and get back in the fight.

Speaker 1 29:07

Do you keep in contact with any of your childhood friends?

Nick VinZant 29:12

I only one person that I went to elementary and middle school with. Would I say that I am still in contact friends with the rest are from high school. I don't go back any farther than high school, really.

John Shull 29:26

Let's see, do you care at all about the Oscars? I realized I do not. But if you did, I we could.

Nick VinZant 29:31

No, I do not care. I don't know anything that happened. I'm just glad that that one guy who seemed like he was a jerk didn't win, the guy who was in dune seems to think that he's better than everybody else in the whole world, and he was going to win, and then he found out he didn't win, because people don't like it when you act like a jackass. That's the only thing that I cared about, as long as that guy didn't win, Timothy, something other than that I could care less at all did not even cross my mind. Mind watching it? Did you watch it?

John Shull 30:02

No, but I did look to see who won. I was happy that I thought sinners was the best movie that I, that I saw last year, and Michael B Jordan won Best Actor. So I'm like, All right, good for him. He deserves it.

Nick VinZant 30:16

I don't think that I not only did I not see or even thought of it, watching any of those movies. I did watch K Pop, demon hunters, though, that was cool. It.

John Shull 30:26

I mean, as it should have, it won, like Best Animated Feature. So, oh yeah, had to. There's a good movie. Great soundtrack, okay, all right. Well, did you know, I know you don't care, so just play along that. There is a new Ozzy Osbourne, Isn't he dead? He is, however, his son, Jack, and his and Jack's wife had a daughter over, uh, over the weekend, or, actually, 10 days ago.

Nick VinZant 30:54

Oh, I thought you meant like there was going to be a new thing coming out. They just named their son off. They named their son Ozzy. No, they

John Shull 31:01

named their daughter Ozzy. Ozzy Matilda, which is a little strange to me that you would name a girl Ozzie. But once again, a lot of weird things out there.

Nick VinZant 31:15

I mean, that's all right, it's there's a lot that's worse. I'm not going to make fun of somebody who's going to be maybe grieving their loss of their parent and decided to name their child after it like you are not going to be so crass as to do something like that, but if you want that's the road that you want to go down. Go for it,

John Shull 31:30

man, stand on that hill. Would you rather go? I don't know why I decided to input me into this question, but I figured it'd be okay. Okay, would you rather so? Would you rather go to space by an aircraft that I built, or go to the bottom of an of the ocean and a submersible that I built?

Nick VinZant 31:54

Oh, probably space, because definitely the thing that you built could sink and kill me. But I think if we're trying to go to space and the thing that you built, it might not ever get off the ground. So that's the safer of the two options.

John Shull 32:08

You're right. That's a great way to look at it, because you're gonna sink regardless of whatever I build. The aircraft doesn't necessarily have to ever launch, right?

Nick VinZant 32:18

So exactly, that's why I would think about it. So I think that's actually a pretty easy choice to make.

John Shull 32:24

Um, I want to talk about the weather, just because I think everyone's talking about the weather. Everybody about how I don't think anybody is about how uncharacteristic the weather is in the Midwest right now. We had tornadoes in Michigan, like, three days into March. That's unheard of, like an f3 tornado.

Nick VinZant 32:51

Yeah, it's climate change. We're all fucked like, this is how it's gonna work now, right? And remember when people get skeptical about it, right? Like, okay, but this is just the beginning. Just remember, this is just the beginning. And that's just a huge difficulty that we as human species have, is that we're not worried about a problem until it's really too late to

John Shull 33:11

fix it. We don't talk politics here, but I feel like I have to say this, because I was watching Robert F Kennedy Jr talk the other day, and I was like, oh, once again, for all of you out there, whether you lean right or left, like, Can we all agree? Like, what the hell are we doing? Like, this guy is the head, like, he's a he's not our top doctor, but like, he's leading, like, the health department America, like, right?

Nick VinZant 33:40

Well, I think that what is happening, in some cases, is kind of like your love for Detroit, and that some people are supporting things simply because they're so crappy that they feel like they have to, right, like you love Detroit, even though it's one of the worst cities in America, and you won't listen to any Detroit slander because you just want to love Detroit. That's your thing. You got to push it forward. And so other people are going to like people like Robert F Kennedy Jr, because he's so terrible and unqualified that they're just gonna be like, No, he's not. I love him even more. Now you don't like him, therefore I love him. You don't think he's completely qualified in any way, therefore I think he's the perfect person, right? It's like you in Detroit, I will say, is it, statistically by any category, a good city, no, let me, but you love it more for that.

John Shull 34:24

So they released the pot, like the population updates or whatever. And I was shocked that Detroit, I think, fell to 26 that's not even a major city. Like it isn't.

Nick VinZant 34:36

Oh yeah. Everybody already knew this. Everybody else already knew it.

John Shull 34:39

Hold on before you, like, make fun of me. I was gonna give you a little credit, because I think Seattle is like, eighth or ninth, like, Well done. Well done.

Nick VinZant 34:50

Oh yes, you can make an argument. And some people have, you can make an argument that Seattle is the fourth major city in

John Shull 34:57

the United that's not that's absurd, that. Nowhere near accurate. I would say, See, now you're getting me hot. There's I would I would say, go

Nick VinZant 35:05

ahead and get hot, because I'm not bringing opinions. I'm not bringing opinions. I just bring facts. No. So go ahead and say what you think, and I'll tell you what I know.

John Shull 35:14

You just gave an opinion. Why? Why would you think you Okay? Let me ask, before we even go down this path, you don't actually think Seattle is like the fourth largest city in America, right?

Nick VinZant 35:26

Not the fourth largest the fourth major. There's a

John Shull 35:29

difference, sure, but yeah, fine, fourth major. You can't possibly believe that.

Nick VinZant 35:35

I think that you can make an argument for it, because you can look at these, okay, economic output, Amazon, Microsoft, major companies. You have a major port, and it's on the coast. So what other city are you going to say? No, that's the fourth major city in the United States.

John Shull 35:56

Okay, so let's get this out of the way here. So, Chicago, New York, LA, right? Three biggest,

Nick VinZant 36:03

yeah, that's the easy that's the easy three. Now, I think, though, where you get debate about it is what's the fourth? And you could put a number of different cities in there as what's the fourth major city in the United States.

John Shull 36:15

I mean, I would say, you know, Miami, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston,

Nick VinZant 36:21

but they don't have the economic drive that Seattle does. I don't know. I don't know about they're not culturally well, okay, so what has been, from an economic and a cultural standpoint, more influential than Amazon or computers?

John Shull 36:35

First off, you're forgetting the reason why people even care about Seattle. What's that?

Nick VinZant 36:41

Starbucks again? There you go. So think about the cultural impact of cities on the United States over the last, let's say, 30 to 40 years. What's going to be bigger than coffee Amazon and computers? If you really, like, think about this and start to break it down, I would actually make it the true if I was arguing this with somebody in a legitimate fashion, I would say San Francisco is probably the fourth major city.

Speaker 1 37:12

I mean, I would probably say Miami,

Nick VinZant 37:15

but you can't say Miami because it doesn't have like, the cultural or the economic input that a place like Seattle or San Francisco does. There's no major big companies coming out of Miami in the same way that you have coming out of the San Francisco and the Seattle area. Hold on, but not recently.

Speaker 1 37:32

Let's see. Go ahead and

Nick VinZant 37:34

Google it. I'm sorry. I come prepared with facts. You come prepared with opinions based on cookies or whatever it

John Shull 37:42

is, just so, you know, cookies are, cookies are fantastic. I do love Burger King is in Miami. You're welcome. Okay?

Nick VinZant 37:51

So that is not another new company in the last 30 or 40 years that is not changing the cultural conversation of the United States. I don't i You can't argue. You have like, can you just admit that you have absolutely no facts?

John Shull 38:07

I haven't done the research on this. I can tell you there's three companies, and yes, they are major companies, but I would not say Seattle is the fourth largest or most influential area in the country. I just wouldn't then name me the one that's bigger. I mean, you said it yourself. I'd have to look at San Francisco and see what they're you know, San Diego, like, calm get,

Nick VinZant 38:37

can we get somebody who in here, who knows what they're talking about? I you probably don't even know. You probably don't even know where San Diego is. San Diego are you saying that was Grand Rapids? Big is Grand Rapids?

Speaker 1 38:50

A big deal? Oh boy, yeah, here we go. Anyways. Well, see, this is what I mean, though.

Nick VinZant 38:55

But you have such a love of Detroit that you're going to defend Detroit without actually taking an objective look at the fact that Seattle is in the conversation this or the fourth for the being a fourth major

John Shull 39:05

city in the United States. No, you're, you know, I said it. I think it's, you can look at it. I also said this whole conversation started because I said I was shocked that Detroit had fallen so far in population.

Nick VinZant 39:20

Oh, yeah, everybody, but everybody knows right? Like everybody knows this. No, maybe it'll come back someday. You know what? We can all agree on. What's that you're not a champion, right? There's another reason that Seattle is a culturally relevant city, winning sports championships, which is something that Seattle does makes it relevant.

John Shull 39:41

Technically, we're all champions, okay, we beat Canadian, okay?

Nick VinZant 39:47

Canada, yeah, Canadian, I don't pay any attention to that. Like, you know, my theory about, like, beating other countries in sports, like, we should, okay, yeah, we should. Yeah.

John Shull 40:00

I mean, we should, we don't often. No, I Okay. I'm gonna go on a limb. I'm gonna say Houston is my number four, just but we'll end it there.

Nick VinZant 40:11

So I would, I think that there's cities that you can have in that conversation, Seattle, San Francisco, Houston, Dallas, Boston, Philadelphia. I think you could have some sort of conversation around those cities being the fourth major city in the United States.

John Shull 40:35

Let's put Baltimore on there. DC.

Nick VinZant 40:38

Baltimore is not DC is not well, I mean, DC, really, if you take DC out, that's kind of really cheating.

John Shull 40:45

I'm kidding. Those are all old school cities for the most part.

Nick VinZant 40:49

Like, oh yeah, man, the news on, everybody's on the new on the come up, right?

John Shull 40:54

All right. That took up way too much time. Um, so I'm just trying a couple of questions, but I'm trying to figure out which one you may actually care about. Actually care about. What do you think of electric bicycles?

Nick VinZant 41:10

I'm against electric bicycles, but I love electric scooters. I think my electric scooter, which I love so much that I bought another one, and I'm possibly going to buy two more electric scooters for a total of four electric scooters in one household. I think it's the greatest mode of transportation that I've ever, ever been a part of. I cannot speak highly of the electric scooters. It is all the convenience of a car with all the convenience of walking, because I can hop on my electric scooter and I can ride it right up on the sidewalk. I can ride it in the street. I can ride it right into the Grand grocery store. I live a 10 minute walk round trip from a grocery store, and I can be to the grocery store and back on my electric scooter in three minutes and 47 seconds with a purchase three minutes and 47 seconds. Ask me other things about my electric scooter and how amazing it is now quickly that I can move around. It's the greatest form of transportation we've ever admitted now, an electric scooter, I would argue, is better than an electric bike, because it makes you feel a little bit cooler, right, like you're doing something a little bit more adventurous. You're not just sitting down on this bicycle, but an electric bike would probably be your number two. I think they're fantastic. I think that's the way we should all should be traveling.

John Shull 42:19

Okay? The only thing I got out of that was you no longer reserve the right to ever make fun of me about anything. Old Man wise.

Nick VinZant 42:31

What's old man about an electric scooter? Everything you know what an electric scooter is. You're not thinking you're thinking of a hover round. That's not an electric scooter. No, I was talking about a scooter where I'm standing up on that bad boy.

John Shull 42:44

I'm not. I'm just, I'm not hating on electric scooters, Vespas, anything like that. But for you to say that when all you do is make fun of me for my old man tendencies, I feel like that's

Nick VinZant 42:57

but that's not an old man tendency. Like you're so far out of the you're so far, you're so old that you don't even know what's cool and hip now. Yeah, you don't even know that. Things have come back around. Everybody's got an electric scooter. It's the greatest mode of transportation ever.

John Shull 43:12

Well, I'm gonna be merch it. I'm gonna be in the market, so I'm maybe I'll look at what were

Nick VinZant 43:17

you gonna buy one well, let me know, because I'll tell you all the positives and negatives. Well, you think you know about candles? Well, wait till you see how much I know about electric scooters.

John Shull 43:26

But we'll see. I definitely am. Yeah, yeah, we'll see.

Nick VinZant 43:31

All right, you should get one sell the car and get one sell both cars. Just take the whole family around an electric scooter in a wagon. You can just tie a wagon to the back. You got all your stuff.

John Shull 43:40

Man, I just bought a van, so I don't think I'm gonna be selling that, but my lease is up in a month, so I'm thinking about, maybe I'm considering it. Maybe we'll see. I'll let you know.

Nick VinZant 43:50

You should do it. You should do it. You probably now, listen, yeah, I don't know if you're man enough for an electric scooter. You're probably gonna have to get a bike. I don't know, standing up and doing this. It's not safe for me. I went to REI wear a helmet

John Shull 44:03

to look at bikes. And I was like, Yeah, Rei is not the place I should have went to for bikes fucking

Nick VinZant 44:09

Oh, but that's okay. So listen, you're just you're Yeah, but sometimes you buy something that's worth it. I will say this, I bought an expensive mountain bike after having cheap, $100 huffies. My entire life, an expensive mountain bike is not a bike, it's a machine. There's a difference. There's a massive difference between an expensive mountain bike and $100

John Shull 44:31

mountain I don't need a mountain bike. I just want a bike to get around town, right? I need a city bike. I don't need a mountain bike scooter. Man, mine was $499

Nick VinZant 44:40

I love that thing. I put 400 miles on it. Okay? I love it. You ride it around. You can it's transportation. It's fun, it's everything.

John Shull 44:52

God, you need to take a selfie on that thing and send it to me, please.

Nick VinZant 44:56

I can't, because there's no camera that can capture how fast that I'm going. Okay, that's fantastic. I floor that sucker going down a hill, take a turn full speed, not even a blink in an eye.

John Shull 45:10

I bet you do all at eight miles an hour.

Nick VinZant 45:13

First of all, I've gotten it up to 37 what don't like? I love my electric scooter. Man, it's amazing. Say the greatest thing, honestly, the best purchase I've ever had.

John Shull 45:24

Say that thing's fully charged up and you're, you're cruising, what, what's, what's top speed 40

Nick VinZant 45:32

top speed is, well, so top speed is 25 okay, but if you're going down a hill, you can get that sucker up to 37 I've clocked it on 37 on my seven on my app, you have an app, oh, yeah, why wouldn't I have an app? Yeah, cuz you can change. And you have to, actually, you can use the map app because you can adjust and put on cruise control. And I went on a long ride family and I, we went all the way downtown, seven miles long ride. Put that sucker. Put that sucker because Seattle, again, probably in the, really in the top argument for the fourth major city in the United States has a very well built infrastructure for Seattle, for bicycles and scooters, and I can take it pretty much anywhere. I can get faster. I can get around faster on my electric scooter, and you can get

Speaker 1 46:26

around in a car. I just picture,

Nick VinZant 46:29

not even a race, not even a race. My wife has dropped off the kids. I've met them there at like, various functions. You want to race me back home? Nope, you don't, because I'm going to dust you by about five minutes.

Speaker 1 46:42

Brian, that's that's just move on.

Nick VinZant 46:47

Do you want to know the names of my electric scooters?

John Shull 46:49

Of course, you name them. I know I can't get my camera to focus on my face because I'm laughing so hard.

Nick VinZant 46:56

So we have one that is named Speedy Gonzalez. It's the accelerated model doesn't have shocks. I would get shocks. If you get an electric scooter, I would make sure they have some sort of suspension on them. It can be a little bit of a bumpy ride at times. That one is named Speedy Gonzales. And then I have one that does have a suspension,

Speaker 1 47:17

named Billy Powell. You probably don't. You know who Billy Powell is? I don't know. Do you want to explain to the class Billy Powell,

Nick VinZant 47:23

he is the pianist for Leonard Skinner, it's

Nick VinZant 47:32

amazing. I love it. I love it. Why can't keep me from my electric scooter? I had a choice between one of my children and Mike the electric scooters, I would obviously choose my children, but I think I'd miss that electric

Speaker 1 47:43

scooter. You're a big Skinner fan over there.

Nick VinZant 47:48

Well, I'm big fan of being indulging in certain things that Washington legally allows. And listen to Linden Skinner, yeah, and so are my two sons. We sit there and watch little Skinner. So we decided to name the scooter. Billy Powell,

Speaker 1 47:59

okay, all right. Billy Powell, perfect man.

Nick VinZant 48:04

We're gonna get a third one. It's gonna be named APA Alpha avatar.

Speaker 1 48:09

I also don't know what that is or who they're

Nick VinZant 48:12

not a man of culture. You're not a man of culture. If you were a man of culture who is a worldly man, you would know that one Seattle is probably a front runner for fourth major city in the United States, and he would know about things like Opa, yeah.

John Shull 48:27

Man, got there. God bless, God bless Billy Powell and oppa. Oprah, whatever her name is, Oppa.

Speaker 1 48:34

Oppa, thank you. I needed that laugh. That was Oh, man. I hope ever, oh,

Nick VinZant 48:41

you laugh, but I'm over there just putting them up. You're picking them up

Speaker 1 48:45

and putting her down, 12 miles an hour, getting it down right.

Nick VinZant 48:49

They won't even let me, you know what? They won't even let me drive on certain cities. They won't even let me go down certain streets. Because if I do, all the women on that street end up pregnant just from seeing me, and they're like, sir, you can't go down this street anymore. Yeah, we see you. We just instantly pregnant.

John Shull 49:08

I definitely could. Could see that happening, no doubt.

Nick VinZant 49:11

Oh, yeah, it's so fun. I love it. Oh, get you an electric scooter, man. Once you, once you, once you, once you do it, you can't go back. All right,

John Shull 49:20

I'll let I'll let you know. Maybe I'll nickname mine. Johnny VinZant, okay, I will, I will, I will. All right, let's move on. Let's talk about sand wedges. Oh, you want to do you ready? Wait, say it again.

Nick VinZant 49:40

Sandwich. Sandwich. Do you want to talk sandwich? Let's talk about sandwiches, not golf clubs. That sounds fair. So top five is top five sandwiches. Sandwich to number five sandwich.

John Shull 49:56

I do hate you. My number five is the room.

Nick VinZant 50:00

Bit. Okay, all right. I mean, I guess I'm not gonna order it, but I won't. It's not a top five worthy sandwich in any way.

John Shull 50:14

It's not, if you were to put the most classic sandwiches on a on a board, it's on there and it's delicious.

Nick VinZant 50:23

Yeah, I mean, it's on there on the other board. That's not classic sandwiches. There's like the classic sandwiches board, and then there's other sandwiches. It's not on the classics, the Reuben No, it's not. Nobody has corned beef just sitting around. I like it. It's good, but it's not like a classic sandwich. What's your number five? My number five is the club sandwich. Okay? Club Sandwich, I think, is the most classic basic sandwich.

John Shull 50:51

It definitely like, if this was pop culture, definitely would be like the basic, you know, the basic B, right? Like, that's definitely what it would Yeah.

Nick VinZant 51:02

Did you club sandwich? Like, Okay, sounds good. Nobody's gonna have a problem with you getting a club sandwich. If you have to go and get sandwiches, everybody's gonna be like, Well, did you get some clubs like, Oh, I'll take the club sandwich. Yeah.

John Shull 51:13

So that that's out of my honor mention, because I actually put this in there as my number four instead of that, because I felt that this is the most basic sandwich, and it's just bologna and cheese.

Nick VinZant 51:28

Oh, I don't know if I've honestly ever had a bologna sandwich.

John Shull 51:32

That's how you know you're not for right there.

Nick VinZant 51:36

Oh, no, I've just had other cheap meats. I've just never had specifically bologna.

John Shull 51:41

I will say I was in college when somebody showed me that fried bologna is so much better than actual Bologna, but

Nick VinZant 51:53

I would just eat plain bread, like, when I was low down in college, I would just eat, like, bread sandwich. I'm not even messing with the balloon, like, I don't really want bologna. It's maybe it takes preference for my mustard sandwich.

Speaker 1 52:07

No mustard. Yeah, what's your number four and mustard?

Nick VinZant 52:10

I actually don't have anything in number four. I left four blank.

John Shull 52:16

Oh, there's, I mean, there's a million, there's all kinds of opportunities.

Nick VinZant 52:20

There wasn't anything that I was really sold on. There wasn't anything that I felt like a number four like this fit a number four. And I'm not just going to pick anything willy nilly. I take I treat these top five lists with the utmost respect. If I don't have a good answer, I'm not going to give you one. I'm not just going to throw something in there like a Reuben.

Speaker 1 52:39

Rubens are delicious. You said so yourself.

Nick VinZant 52:43

Oh, they're good. I'm not gonna go so far as to say they're delicious. I'm gonna say that was good, all right. Well, say that was delicious. I guess I would probably put a BLT in there, honestly.

John Shull 52:53

Okay, that's, that was, that's, I was, my other honorable mention was a BLT. It's good. It's fine, too. Basic. Like not not not enough.

Nick VinZant 53:03

I'm sorry you don't like the simple things. It's such a snob.

John Shull 53:09

My number three is, I mean, I put Philly cheese steak, but really, like any kind of cheese steak sandwich, it's delicious.

Nick VinZant 53:18

Okay, I felt like Philly cheese steak would make a list at some point. I think it's a little bit of a default, like, people just put it in there because, like, Oh, I've heard of a Philly Cheesesteak. Throw that in there. But I don't think that. I think people talk up the Philly cheesesteak more than they like the Philly Cheesesteak.

Speaker 1 53:34

I don't know, man, I tell you what.

Nick VinZant 53:40

My number three is a Cuban,

John Shull 53:42

okay, Cuban Rubin, like they're all the same. To me, they're not. The fact that you're

Nick VinZant 53:48

putting those, the fact that you're putting them the same, it makes me question your sandwich knowledge. Makes me question if you're a true foodie, I don't think you are.

John Shull 53:56

Well, I mean, number one, I think, is unanimous, but my number two is, is what's gonna set me apart from you? Okay, my number two is any kind of cold cut sandwich. Okay.

Nick VinZant 54:13

I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and argue with it necessarily. I think that the club sandwich kind of sums up that position, and that you don't have to go into specifics. Think the club sandwich I would rather have than any kind of cold cut. Like, do you want Turkey? Do you want ham? Do you want roast beef? Why not put it all together in the club sandwich?

John Shull 54:31

Man, Give me. Give me some of those Italian meats, like prosciutto, salami. Oh, tell you what.

Nick VinZant 54:42

My number two is grilled cheese.

John Shull 54:44

Okay, I left off a grilled cheese. I don't actually like grilled cheese sandwiches.

Nick VinZant 54:49

Oh, you don't like America

Speaker 1 54:54

has to do with anything America's what, everything you.

Nick VinZant 55:00

Grilled cheese. Yeah, America,

John Shull 55:03

I don't. I mean, if I'm gonna, like, I've always thought if I'm gonna do that, like, I need to add bacon, or I need to add, like, you know, a chicken breast. Like, I just can't eat, just cheese and bread.

Nick VinZant 55:15

You're always trying to do too much. You don't enjoy the simple things in life enough, right? Yeah, this is the same problem that you're talking about when we had this discussion about the scooter. You want to have this fancy car with all these little doodads? Not me, man, I just wanted something to be free. Never said. I just want to hop on my little thing and go. You want all these things. You want somebody to wipe your little baby bottom, all the bells and whistles. Not me, man, I just need two wheels, a little motor, and I'm good to go. I'm a simple man.

John Shull 55:44

There you go. Nice reference. I'm just a simple man. Skinner would be proud.

Nick VinZant 55:49

Seth, oh, that is it. Leonard Skinner, like, I'm just a simple man. Jesus, you have to ask, like, what I like, skinnered, I just

Speaker 1 55:56

want to make sure you do horse. I know.

Nick VinZant 55:59

All right, probably like, it's not indie pop.

John Shull 56:03

Our number one is unanimous, right?

Nick VinZant 56:07

Maybe I don't know what you're gonna pick. It's prosciutto on rye. Probably something snobby,

John Shull 56:14

peanut butter and jelly. Peanut butter and jelly is the best sandwich, though, I will say I think you could make an argument though there, they weren't on my top five, but if you were going classic, most well known sandwiches, BLT and grilled cheese, I think you could probably put it number one. They're not the best, but for like being known,

Nick VinZant 56:39

I don't think so. I think the peanut butter. I think peanut peanut butter and jelly is the most well known sandwich, then grilled cheese, then BLT. Actually, no, if you're talking about the most well known sandwiches, I would say peanut butter and jelly, grilled cheese, Beat Club and BLT would be pretty close. I think, I don't think you can count like ham and like ham and Turkey and stuff like that, like that. That's too simple. I think it's the sandwich itself.

John Shull 57:08

Think you're not giving BLT enough credit in that regards, but that's my opinion on that.

Nick VinZant 57:14

Yeah, I think it would be close between the BLT and the club.

John Shull 57:19

It would be probably, but I feel like, BLT edges it. I think Club's not as popular as we think. But what do I know? I left it off my list.

Nick VinZant 57:26

You got to be a simple you got to be a simpler. Man. You try to complicate everything too much. Just enjoy the simple things in life. Just enjoy the simple things. Take it easy.

John Shull 57:35

That's what I'm trying to do. Man, just take her easy.

Nick VinZant 57:39

You're fighting in traffic with your brand new minivan that you got, and I'm just cruising along on my scooter, just passing you right by while you sit in traffic just getting angry. Honk, honk, honk, and there you see me just flowing by.

Speaker 1 57:54

Hey, Dad, can you put it in the fifth gear? Word gear. We're going 17 miles an hour.

Nick VinZant 58:03

You know, scooters don't have

John Shull 58:05

gears. Well, yeah, yeah, it's electric. I guess, yes,

Nick VinZant 58:07

you don't have to get there fast when you're just enjoying the ride. That's what you're missing out on.

John Shull 58:12

That's well, that, you know what? That is, a quote I'm gonna live by from now on. You don't have

Nick VinZant 58:17

to, right? Don't go fast. Just enjoy the ride. Just enjoy the ride. Do you have anything in your honorable mention? Probably some snob crap. No.

John Shull 58:26

I mean, I you, I mentioned to them already, and then I just put on, like, a chicken sandwich, really, but like, chicken avocado, bacon, chipotle mayo.

Nick VinZant 58:38

Does everybody up there say sandwich like you say it, or is it just, is it a you thing, or is it the geography thing?

John Shull 58:46

I am sure that I am probably weird, but I also don't know, because I don't, don't talk to people about sandwiches a lot. So it's not about talking,

Nick VinZant 58:58

hey man, it's not. I'm just dropping knowledge on dropping life advice on you, on your trying to make fun of me about my scooter. I love my scooter. No, it's because I'm older and wiser. I'm older and wiser today. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. Let us know what you think is the best sandwich, and really consider getting an electric scooter you.

How Memory Works with Memory Researchers Dr. Christopher Moulin and Dr. Akira O'Connor

How do we remember? Why do we forget? What’s making our memories change over time? Memory Researchers Dr. Akira O’Connor and Dr. Christopher Moulin have spent their lives trying to answer memory’s biggest questions.

We talk how memory works, why we forget things and the best way to preserve your memories.

Then, it’s 67 and 420 vs. 007 and 8675309 as we countdown the Top 5 Meme Number Combinations.

00:00: Introducing Dr. Christopher Moulin and Dr. Akira O’Connor

01:21: How Does Memory Work

03:59: How Good is Our Memory

07:19: How Memories Changes

09:16: Why We Forget

12:42: Reexperiencing Memories

14:17: Are Memories Ever Lost

17:42: Music and Memories

20:01: Pictures and Memories

21:18: The Best Memories

28:05: Pointless

45:16: Top 5 Meme Number Combinations

Contact the Show

Dr. Akira O’Connor Books and Publications

Dr. Christopher Moulin Books and Publications

Interview with Memory Researchers Dr. Christopher Moulin and Dr. Akira O’Connor

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, memory and number memes

Dr. Akira O'Connor 0:20

as like an orchestra, each instrument is is playing a tune at the time of the memory.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 0:28

And certainly that's, that's one of the aspects of memory which is interesting. Each time you retrieve something, you get something back from memory, you will be, without doubt, kind of modifying it slightly.

Dr. Akira O'Connor 0:40

That leads to something called a reminiscence bump. We remember those things from that reminiscence bump.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guests, because they study something that I'm just fascinated about. How does our memory work? Why do we forget certain things, and what is it about our memory that makes it change over time? This is memory researchers, Dr Akira O'Connor and Dr Christopher moulin, how does memory work?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 1:23

It doesn't work like a video recorder. What it does work like is taking everything that you have in your mind at the time at which you're experiencing something, and trying to knit that together into a kind of pattern of neuronal activity that is recorded in a part of the brain called the hippocampus and then gets kind of cascaded out into the rest of the brain, so you get these patterns of activation that become kind of initially laid down, kind of tentatively and then offline. So when you're away from whatever it is you're remembering, you get this kind of replay, this consolidation of those patterns of activity, of that, those patterns of activation, this often, often happens when you sleep. So people often find that they can remember stuff a lot better when they've they've slept on something, and so that's when you get, you get the kind of strengthening of the memory. And then when you're when you're kind of bringing it back to mind, what you're trying to do is you're trying to find a way into reactivating some part of that pattern that then kind of reactivates the rest of it, and that's what leads to you, kind of often re experiencing a memory in quite a kind of sensorially rich way.

Nick VinZant 2:51

It kind of sounds to me like we write it down in pencil a little bit. We sleep on it. Decide if we're really going to write it down in pen, but then we have to come back to it to keep it going. Is that,

Dr. Akira O'Connor 3:05

that that's that's definitely one way of thinking about it like or you could think about it as like a, as like an orchestra, where where each each instrument is, is playing a tune at the time of the memory. And if you decide that that thing is particularly significant, that thing is important, that thing needs to be remembered, then that that tune that was being played by each instrument kind of goes into into a kind of soft storage, and that's where you start, like practicing that tune a bit you did all of those instruments kind of keep working on it until they can hopefully get back to exactly the tune they were playing. When you're trying to remember that thing.

Nick VinZant 3:59

How good would you say our memory is?

Dr. Christopher Moulin 4:02

I'd say our memory is, is brilliant most of the time, it gets most of the things correct. And I think when it goes wrong, it can cause pretty difficult problems, family dinners, that's a good example of when it goes wrong, because two people, me and my sister can try and reminisce about the same situation or the same event, and we'll have different memories of the same event. One of us has to be right and one of us has to be wrong, but kind of, our own personal memory serves us well for what we want to remember and what our like story is from that event. So in that way, memory is great. It's our best friend, and it serves to, like, maintain who we are and what we need to know about their past, but in terms of something objective, because it's not an exact copy of something from the past, it is fallible, so it's a wonderful system. Most of the time, you won't know when it goes wrong, but every now and then, everybody's. That experience of remembering something differently from somebody else, which just goes to show that there's always a bias in your own memory towards yourself,

Nick VinZant 5:08

even though we have that memory bias. Is our bias correct in the sense that like, are we recalling the things that we'd paid attention to as they happened, or are we even influencing our own bias? Like, no that. I can't think of an example. But does this make sense? Like, are we remembering something as it happened through our lens, or are we changing the memory as it comes in and gets recorded?

Dr. Christopher Moulin 5:40

Like one of the things, of course, we do, just like a computer system, is trying to reduce the amount of storage that we have to do. So we make generalizations. So we want, instead of, you know, remembering a specific instance of a specific time, if it's something similar to something else, we'll we'll kind of construct a kind of general pattern or a general picture. And in fact, in in family arguments about memories is often like that. It's because you will say, Oh yeah, well, you know, Uncle Peter was there, because uncle Peter was usually there, but then somebody will have a member memory of him not being there, then you'll have a stupid debate about whether your uncle was present at the at the dinner, or not. So. So that's a great question, but I think there's, there's biases which are due to in the moment and your where your attention is, and what you're looking at and what you're thinking about. But then there's also these kinds of biases which are added, you know, later on down the line.

Nick VinZant 6:33

Would this be a way to kind of summarize it in my mind, is that, like, our memory is kind of like a puzzle, and if we're missing the puzzle piece, our brain just fills it in with what we think probably would have been in there, whether it was actually there or not, right?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 6:49

Exactly, exactly. And you think about that puzzle, you think about that puzzle as a movie, right? And then you've got this, this kind of spotlight of attention moving around during that movie, you're kind of filling in all the gaps based on where the attention has been, what you've noticed before. You're assuming nothing has changed. And you're also filling in all the bits that you never attended to at all because they were just pretty normal.

Nick VinZant 7:19

Is there a way to quantify like how much a memory will change over time. Like, if I go back to it, the home run that I hit was 300 feet, and now it's 320 feet, yeah, and now it's 350 feet.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 7:34

I don't know if there is, for any one individual, a way of doing that, and certainly that's, that's one of the aspects of memory, which is interesting. Each time you retrieve something, you get something back from memory, you will be, without doubt, kind of modifying it slightly and then laying it down differently for the next time that you get it. So the more you think about these things, and the more you repeat them, usually, the more they drift away from what the actual like, truth was at the start of the of the memory,

Nick VinZant 8:04

is this a big problem? Like, do you view this as a big problem that the idea of like, well, what's true? And the answer is, we kind of don't know.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 8:14

I I mean, obviously we can all generate times when it is a problem. But in general, I mean, I'll go back to what I say said before. I mean, memory is brilliant. It's not a problem. It's it's evolved like that. It's supposed to be like that, and it's like that. So you can act on your feet quickly. You can make quick decisions, you can make generalizations. You can maybe even predict the future a bit better based on, like, kind of making an average of everything you've encountered in the past.

Nick VinZant 8:42

To maybe crystallize this in my mind a little bit. It's the kind of thing where you don't need to remember if the Tiger had 13 stripes or 15 stripes. You just need to know that the tiger was dangerous. Because if you get caught up on the idea if it was 13 or 15, you're wasting your time. Just run. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 8:59

I think that's a good, a good way of looking at it. We only need so much information to act appropriately. And then, you know, we need to be scared when we see a tiger. We don't need to say, hey, wait a minute. The last Tiger I saw I want to see. You know, yeah, how

Nick VinZant 9:16

does our brain kind of decide what we're going to remember and what we're not going to this is

Dr. Akira O'Connor 9:20

one of those mysteries, right, of of of psychology, of neuroscience. But that process of of deciding what you're going to remember is is actually a really important part of kind of filtering what's important and what isn't. So there's a certain amount of of that consolidation, that that offline process when, when you're not actually going through something, that that kind of prunes away irrelevant stuff, that there's probably an awful lot of frontal input. So the frontal cortex is the part of the brain that that we think about as. Being responsible for higher order cognition. So it keeps our kind of hopes and dreams going whilst we're we're kind of navigating the world and trying to kind of just deal with all of the sensory input that we're dealing with. The frontal cortex almost certainly feeds into this, this kind of pruning process, allowing some bits to fade away into obscurity, and other memories to kind of stand the test of time.

Nick VinZant 10:26

So when we remember something, I think of like a computer, and some sort of physical process happening in my brain when we remember something, is there a physical thing that is happening, like, oh, the brain just created a new memory and it put it here. Can you see that? Or is that not how it works?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 10:48

Well. So the hippocampus is really important, right? Without a hippocampus, people can't lay down new memories. So the hippocampus is almost like the kind of the recording head on an old fashioned cassette recorder. Without that, you can't lay down, lay down new memories. But what we what we know, is that we get this, this shift away from the hippocampus and into the kind of the rest of the brain, the further away in time we get from the point at which that memory was laid down. So there's initially this reliance on, on a kind of region of the brain to do that, that the heavy work of, of kind of recording that memory. But then later that that memory kind of becomes part of the kind of the fabric of our brains, and it just becomes another layer onto which we start layering more and more knowledge. So there's, there's undoubtedly distinct patterns of neural firing that that replicate what was happening when, when the memory was being encoded. Those happen when we're when we're retrieving memories, but by the time those memories become become kind of consolidated and part of, let's say, part of yourself, your idea of yourself, that they're just part of the the the kind of overall pattern of activation that your brain might, might might kind of slip into

Nick VinZant 12:42

when we remember something. Let's take an emotional memory or a strong memory, for example. Are when we remember it? Do we experience it in the same way, like so we first time we got on a roller coaster, we released dopamine if we remember that first time we got on a roller coaster, is our brain doing the same thing? Like, is it going through the actions, or is it just simply, you did this thing?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 13:07

There's an interaction there with with some memories, you get this really vivid reliving of that experience. And there's almost certainly a kind of an emotional component to that you don't, you don't tend to get that for, for kind of mundane, kind of,

Nick VinZant 13:27

where do I park my car? Right, like,

Dr. Akira O'Connor 13:29

right, right. But those kind of seminal experiences, those those experiences that might be particularly, particularly transformative to you, particularly, particularly stressful, particularly emotional. People do talk about the vividness, and then there's evidence to suggest that the vividness is much higher in those memories and and that can cause problems, right? Those sorts of mechanisms are the mechanisms that lead to the problems associated with PTSD and flashbacks and and those those kinds of things. So so there's absolutely total variation in in how some memories can be encoded and retrieved compared to others.

Nick VinZant 14:17

So does our brain, even though we actively remember something, does our brain keep all of it we just can't get back to it? Like, can I if I somehow, is what I had for dinner three weeks ago somewhere in my brain, even though I could not think of it at all. Or does it actually just nope, that's just gone. It's deleted.

Dr. Akira O'Connor 14:41

That's that's a, that's a really big question. Undoubtedly, some of it is getting prudent away. But the kind of, the counter example to all of that is, is, when you get that, you know you're you run across that path. Combination of thoughts that leads you to remember something that you haven't thought about in 15 years, in 20 years, and suddenly you can, you can remember.

Nick VinZant 15:09

It is that kind of how our memory ultimately works, like you need to be able to access the memories. You need other new experiences to kind of reinforce that memory.

Dr. Akira O'Connor 15:18

Yeah, so that's to reinforce the memory, to to re encode the memory, right? So, so one of the analogies that you can you can think about when it comes to to re consolidating memory, is, is tracing paper so you have your original memory. You've got, let's say, a picture drawn on that sheet of tracing paper. Then you put another one, another sheet of paper over it, and trace it out again. That's going to be ever so slightly different, but it's going to, broadly speaking, look like what you had underneath. But you think about that thing, or you talk about that memory over and over and over again, that's a new sheet of tracing paper, over the top, over the top, over the top. Eventually, what you are remembering is going to be probably a caricature of what you had originally. And that's if it's if you're being kind of generous. It might be that you've you've just missed out some things all together. It might be that it looks totally different. And that's all about kind of how you how you have re encoded that memory every time you've brought it to mind. So you've got this idea of of brain, of kind of memory plasticity in there. Every time you bring a memory to mind, you bring it out in a in a kind of fragile form, that what you do with it at that point makes a difference to how it's going to be kind of laid down and remembered again in the future. So it's one of the reasons that there are, well, depending on, on, depending on the country you're in, the police force you're dealing with there, there are quite strict rules about how, for example, police can interview you about about something that you might be asked to testify about in court, because they can quite potentially influence that by asking you leading questions and shifting and altering your memory, getting you to kind of draw these bits that they want you to talk about bigger or miss out the bits that they don't want you to Talk about. To use that tracing paper analogy. Ooh.

Nick VinZant 17:42

Are you ready for some harder slash, listener submitted questions. All right, go for it. Why do we remember music so well? Why can I just suddenly recite the lyrics for a song that I haven't heard in 15 years?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 17:56

That there's probably a few different ways to answer this, right? So one is the emotionality of music. Music for depending on the song, depending on the person, depending on the time of your life. It can be a really emotional experience. That emotion adds another hook, another way of getting to that combination of kind of neuronal activity that that leads to, that leads to a memory being retrieved. So that's one way of looking at it. Another is that experience of of knowing a song inside out that you knew when you were that you listened to when you were 18, when you were 25 that's, that's a really common experience, that period from 15 to 25 that leads to something called a reminiscence bump, whether it's music, whether it's the players that played for Your favorite sports team, whether it's the nights out you had, we remember those things from that reminiscence bump 15 to 25 better than any other period of our life. So that's that's when our our brain is healthiest. That's when there's, there's really significant stuff going on in our lives. Lots of hooks to attach, attach those memories to and and it's just one of those. It's as close to a rule within a law within psychology as we've got 15 to 25 leads to a reminiscence bump. It leads to really memorable memories?

Nick VinZant 19:44

Yeah, I can remember those years very, very well because they're new experiences kind of going out in the world. Your brain is fresh. There's emotions to it, yeah, love for the first time, right? Etc, etc,

Dr. Akira O'Connor 19:57

etc. You're feeling things deep.

Nick VinZant 20:01

Lee, does looking at a picture make you remember the picture and not the actual event?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 20:07

Yes, yes, it influences your memory Absolutely, whether or not it entirely shifts your memory to that picture is, is a is a different question, but there have been all sorts of studies, for example, where this this effect, has been tested even for things that never happened, right? So, for photoshopped pictures of, for example, someone riding in a hot air balloon in their childhood when they never did you can show someone that picture, give them a bit of time, and eventually they will come to believe that that that actually happened.

Nick VinZant 20:48

This is my wife. Is a huge she looks at the picture right after. I never will look at it. I'll never look at it.

Dr. Akira O'Connor 20:54

I find pictures almost painful. Actually. I don't know why I take pictures, but I I seldom look at them and and I think partly that's that there's something painful about that experience lost almost, you know, no longer I'm not no longer there. It's no longer part of me. But, yeah, I

Nick VinZant 21:18

feel the exact same way. That's exactly the way that I feel that, like, No, I don't want to lose that. What is the best memory trick that you know, like, if you want to remember something that is the best memory trick,

Dr. Christopher Moulin 21:31

anything that you relate to yourself is something that you will remember better. So anything that you process deeply, that you think about, that you reflect on, you integrate into your life, your story, anything that has meaning to you is is, is better remembered and and that's the most powerful kind of memory effect, and the most reliable thing that will predict whether you'll remember something or not. It's like how much you've worked with it, how much it means to you, how how much you can integrate it into your life story, or what it is you're doing, or what it is you're good at.

Dr. Akira O'Connor 22:09

Have you heard of memory palaces? No, no. A memory palace is, is one of these mnemonic devices. So to do you know this device of memory that you can use to bootstrap off to make your memory really, really good. What you can do is think of a house that you know really well. For a lot of people, this would be like might be their current house. It might be their childhood home, right? And plot a route through that house so you go in the front door, you go into the hallway, you go into the sitting room, you see various things. You do this for every single room, right, every point of interest in that house, in that memory palace, you can attach a memory to right so you can think about if, if you're trying to remember a particular the title of a particular book, you can think about placing the words for that, the title of that book, in specific locations in your memory palace. That way, when you come to, kind of, when you come to trying to remember that thing, you're you're taking that route through your house, and you're trying to use all of these things that you know so well to to act as cues, to act as reminders to those specific things that you're trying to remember.

Nick VinZant 23:53

Are there, are there certain things that we generally remember better, like, you're going to remember colors better than sounds or places rather than faces. Like, are there things that our memory seems to be more geared towards remembering than other things?

Dr. Akira O'Connor 24:08

Yeah, so there's that, there's a lot of variation, but a lot of the time what we tend to be universally quite good at is is spatial memory. So memory for how we'd navigate to places. It's It's why a lot of memory researchers do who do translational work? So who do work in in animals and try and translate that knowledge into into humans that they will often do, for example, spatial tasks in rodents, because that's, that's the kind of best analog for human memory. That's, that's, they might argue, the building blocks off of which human memory is built. So, so spatial memory is really good. And. And spatial memory is also part of the kind of mnemonic devices that that I was talking about. The memory palaces rely on routes through a memory palace, routes through, for example, a childhood house, because we tend to remember those patterns better. We tend to find it easiest to remember those those things,

Nick VinZant 25:21

oh, even just sitting here, I can't, like, thinking back to my childhood home. I can't remember what color the couch is, but I remember how far away from the TV it was, right, right? Are we more defined by our ability to remember or our ability to forget?

Dr. Christopher Moulin 25:36

OOF My goodness,

Nick VinZant 25:38

I know that one was like, oh, that's deep.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 25:41

So it's a philosophical question.

Dr. Christopher Moulin 25:49

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think since the 19th century, an American philosopher stroke psychologist William James. He said that if we, if we remembered everything, we'd be as bad off as if we forgot everything. So obviously, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fudge it a bit by saying the best response to that is that what you need is the correct balance between remembering and forgetting. You want to forget the bad things that happen to you, and you want to remember the good things. And you want to be able to control what comes to mind and when, and you don't want to have to dwell on bad, negative stuff so and also, you want to remember what's important, not what, what, not what's important and like. Again, it's not such a exciting example, but we often talk about like, your memory wants to work so that you can remember where you parked your car today. You don't want to remember where you parked it yesterday. That's of no use to you. When you go back to the car park, you want to remember where you park your car today. So again, I think that's that's how I'm going to answer that we need to get the right balance between remembering everything and forgetting everything, and just the balance between what we need and what we want to remember and what should be forgotten.

Nick VinZant 27:11

I want to thank Dr O'Connor and Dr moulin so much for joining us. If you want to connect with them, we have linked to them on our social media sites were profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included their information in the episode description. I also want to mention that we're doing something different with these interviews. So not only did Dr O'Connor and Dr moulin study memory, but they also specifically focus on Deja Vu and other types of vous. We're gonna have that discussion in our next episode that will come out on March 19, doing that in my head really quick. I hope that is correct, but it's right around March 19. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. What do you think is the worst day of the week?

John Shull 28:08

It's a mixture of Tuesday, for sure, and Sundays have become quite stressful as well, just because I'm already looking to Monday at like noon on Sunday, like, it's a me thing, but, like, I'd say Sundays and Tuesdays are probably the worst days of the week for me.

Nick VinZant 28:27

Oh, you can't let that build. You've got to, like, prepare on Friday for Monday. Like, I'm not leaving Friday until my Monday is kind of set. I'm not gonna let my Sunday be ruined by my Monday. You gotta, you gotta put a stop to that right now.

John Shull 28:43

Yeah, no, Tuesday is the worst. But I think Sundays are getting up there for me, for sure,

Nick VinZant 28:47

can't, you can't do that. You have to have, I'm not the kind of person who uses this word very much, but you have to have more of a work life balance. You can't let, you cannot let Sunday be ruined by Monday, you can't do it.

John Shull 29:03

I didn't even know. Apparently, there's something called the Sunday creepies that

Nick VinZant 29:07

I have heard of this

John Shull 29:10

my or so I'm sorry, Sunday scaries that my wife has recently told me that I have so

Nick VinZant 29:17

yeah, don't you can't let the Sunday scaries get to you. You've got to be prepared, or either you have to prepare or you have to just be able to walk into it willy nilly and be able to adapt to your situation. I polled the audience about this. 88% said Monday. 13% that math doesn't math, but 13% said Tuesday. I don't know how a computer could get that math wrong, because 88 plus 13 is 101

John Shull 29:47

Wait, not 80 Monday is the dominating like, worst day?

Nick VinZant 29:52

Monday? Yeah, I I think that most people would say Monday. But I think if you could actually take the process of going. Going to work out of it. I don't think most people would say Monday. I think Monday is really a warm up for the worst day that is Tuesday. If you're, I've, I've been lucky and been able to work remotely, so Monday is not that bad. Tuesday is the bad day. I think if you could take the commute out, Monday would not be the worst day.

John Shull 30:21

Yeah, I don't think, I don't think the book end, like Monday or Fridays are bad days at all, because one starts your week and you're still feeling okay, and then Friday by the you know, Fridays obviously heads into the weekend. So I yeah, I wouldn't, if anything, it like I said, it would be the ends or the the beginnings, like Tuesday is the worst Sunday is you're getting ready for for a new week.

Nick VinZant 30:44

Yeah, Tuesday, to me, is number one, but I would put Monday at number two, just because, only because it's a reminder that you have to do stuff. That's all I've got.

John Shull 30:53

What is, I don't think favorite day of the week,

Nick VinZant 30:57

besides the weekend, obviously, well, the favorite day would be Friday. That's kind of easy.

John Shull 31:04

Yeah, I don't, I don't know, man, I think my favorite day is probably Saturday.

Nick VinZant 31:08

But, well, yeah, that's easy. Because you're not working on a Saturday, you have to consider it to be a work day. Like, that's like asking, like, what do you think is worse eating poop or having cake? Do I

John Shull 31:23

think you'd be surprised. I think a lot of people's favorite days are sprinkled through the through the week.

Nick VinZant 31:27

I don't think that anybody is going to say their favorite day of the week is a day that they work.

John Shull 31:34

I think you'd be wrong.

Nick VinZant 31:35

I don't think so. I would be willing to bet all of the money that I have that people are not going to say their favorite day of the week is a day that they go to work.

John Shull 31:45

Well, why would it be Friday? Then you go to work on a Friday?

Nick VinZant 31:48

Well, I just assumed that you were talking about work days because it was so obvious that a day that you're not working is going to be a better day than the days that you have to work.

John Shull 31:57

Like a decade ago, my favorite day would have been a Thursday.

Nick VinZant 32:00

Your favorite day overall would have been a Thursday. Well, yeah, that's a little bit different. If you're single and don't really have a family, because you don't really have anything to do on the weekends, it's kind of different, like, work is kind of your social life. So that's a little bit different.

John Shull 32:13

Don't just be so fabulous, oh, gorgeous the weekend. Like, no, I don't

Nick VinZant 32:18

think we've already established many times that you have bad taste. That's okay. We've already established many times you don't have any taste at all. So there, there. I do have a sense of taste. I have less of a sense of taste because I don't have a smell than you do, and I still have better taste than you do.

John Shull 32:32

It's not true. It's not true. You know how to make one thing, pancakes.

Nick VinZant 32:37

I'm stepping it up a little bit. I'm also chilly dogs pretty

John Shull 32:43

well, all right. But you have, like, how are you cooking

Nick VinZant 32:45

the hot dogs? I put them in the toaster oven.

John Shull 32:49

Okay, you need a hot dog roller get you know, I

Nick VinZant 32:52

can't believe you. I'm still fascinated by the idea that you have all these extra appliances that you then keep in the basement, have to spend all this time walking back up and down the stairs for that's why you're tired and cranky all the time when we record this, because you're spending all your time wasting it.

John Shull 33:07

No, it's because we do this at, you know, 830 Eastern Standard Time. After a full day. You ready to do your shout outs? Yeah, I'm ready to do some shout outs. Let's give some shout outs. I got a good one here right off the bat. I got a Danny.

Nick VinZant 33:19

You got a good one right off the bat. So everybody else just sucks.

John Shull 33:23

Why? Why are you the way you are?

Nick VinZant 33:26

Because it's just fun to pick apart the things that you say.

John Shull 33:29

I know I I looked up a text that you sent me in August of 2020, because I was trying to, I was trying to find the length of the podcast because I've been doing some spring cleaning, and I deleted, you know, my browsing history. And in August of 2020 I asked you, I said, Hey, I'm gonna do like, shout outs a different way. And your response was, you could do it any way you want. You're still gonna mess up the names.

Nick VinZant 33:58

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that that's mean or insensitive or any negative connotation, I think that's that's just pointing out facts.

John Shull 34:04

So I have decided for the next nine names, I am going to get them grammatically correct, just to prove you wrong.

Nick VinZant 34:12

Six years I thought we usually did 10. So are you going to mess up one of them?

John Shull 34:16

Well, no, I already did. I already did. Okay. Danny Jacobson, so

Nick VinZant 34:20

Okay, let's say pressures on get these perfect, because you can't go super slow.

John Shull 34:26

No, I won't. I'll talk normal pace. So like Valerie Schneider, Isaiah, small Sally, Valentine, Eddie Ramsey, Jacob Silva, bonita, Cabrera, Claudia, Knight, Raymond McKenzie and Shirley Monroe.

Nick VinZant 34:45

Okay, that was pretty good. I mean, I was really looking for anything. I mean, there was some slight, like, seeing the facial expressions for people who maybe couldn't see it. There was a slight, like, little bit of hiccups, but not enough to, like, officially call out. It was pretty good. Congrats. Congratulations. This is our 400th almost episode, and you finally managed to do shout outs, right? Would you 400 which is better record than most Detroit sports teams?

John Shull 35:09

Congratulations, God, here we go. Would you say like public speaking is probably the the most nerve wracking thing?

Nick VinZant 35:18

No, not for me. It does. It generally doesn't. Generally doesn't bother me that much. I mean, I used to be a news reporter. I kind of got used to it. I also work in PR, and that's kind of what my job is. It doesn't particularly bother me. I am not. I am okay. What? What bothers you more? Speaking in front of a group of people you don't know, or speaking in front of a group of people. You do know?

John Shull 35:45

I mean, I'm more comfortable in a group full of strangers, but I'm not uncomfortable in front of my friends. It's just it's a different kind of conversation. But I'm great in front of strangers. I mean, yeah, that's kind of my bread and butter.

Nick VinZant 36:00

Oh yeah, I'm better off around people that I don't know than people that I do know. I feel more nervous about, like, getting up in front of people that I do know than people that I don't. Doesn't bother me at

John Shull 36:12

all people that I don't know. Let's see here, Nancy Guthrie is still missing.

Nick VinZant 36:18

Oh, is she that's faded out? She's, I don't, yeah, that's, I mean, that's terrible, but I don't think that she's gonna

John Shull 36:23

be found. That's kind of like, you know, once again, you don't realize how vicious and quick the news cycle is when you're in it. But, I mean, yeah, that was, you know, this is the worst way to put this, but that was, like, the, you know, story of the month last month, yeah. Now it was certainly up there. Yeah. Now, Dak Prescott breaking up with his girlfriend before his wife, his fiance before their wedding, is above it on TMZ.

Nick VinZant 36:51

Like, I mean, it's like, it's good, good that he broke, broke up with her before the wedding, I guess.

John Shull 36:57

Yeah, well, it's Dak Prescott.

Nick VinZant 36:58

I've always been fascinated with a lot of professional athletes get married much younger than I would have thought. A lot of professional athletes get married very young.

John Shull 37:09

I mean, deck Prescott is probably early 30s. I mean, he's not that young,

Nick VinZant 37:13

yeah, but I bet the average marriage age for professional athletes is less than the average marriage age for other professions.

John Shull 37:24

Carolyn, baby. Carolyn, I don't know

Nick VinZant 37:26

about how early curlers get married, but like Drake May, the guy for the Patriots already married. He's 22

John Shull 37:33

Well, that's because Jesus, touchdown, Jesus, oh, yeah. Well, well, I'm not, I'm not touching it. Yeah. Let's do that. Let's see. Did Do you even care about Rihanna?

Nick VinZant 37:45

I didn't even know what Rihanna has possibly done. Yeah, I like Rihanna. I like the fact that Rihanna made her money and then just pieced out.

John Shull 37:54

Well, apparently there was some kind of so police gonna call her at Rihanna's house. Apparently, some woman, who they they say, is not like, have any relation Rihanna shot up her house just randomly. Like, one o'clock in the afternoon, it's like, that's scary as hell. Like, what's it gonna it happens all across the country, right? I'm not saying it doesn't the Barbados. No, no, it's in Orange County somewhere, California, but, oh, Los Angeles. But, man, just like, that's just crazy. Like, I and I bring this up to say I wanted to get your thoughts on this, but I feel like the line of reality between, like, movie stars, musicians, athletes. Like, I feel like people are starting to, like, kind of intertwine. It like there is no separation anymore. Like people are like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out where Rihanna lives, and I'm gonna go shoot up her house.

Nick VinZant 38:53

Like, oh, I think that there's certainly a certain detachment that you kind of mostly these people. You watch them through a screen. You kind of have no idea if they're real people or not. Yeah, right. Like, like, if you were to just find out that all these celebrities and people you see on TV aren't actually real, would that really shock you that much? Like, is that really a real person you have? I think there's a huge disconnect that you don't realize that that's like a real person.

John Shull 39:20

I mean, some of them look like aliens, like you ever seen men in black?

Nick VinZant 39:24

Yeah, dude, well, yeah, first one,

John Shull 39:27

oh man. How many are they to make it? Of those three,

Nick VinZant 39:29

four, they made a lot. They only made the first one. In my mind, they only made the first one, and then I think they made half of his second one, and then they just kind of lost interest.

John Shull 39:38

I mean, that's the problem, right? Like sequels, there aren't there are maybe, what, a dozen sequels that are better than the original, probably less,

Nick VinZant 39:48

not very many, not the only sequels that I can think of, right off the top of my head, that I would say are better than the first one, Star Wars Empire Strikes Back. You. Godfather two, you can make an argument a little bit. I don't know if you can or not, but I think you could say that Godfather two is a sequel that's better, or at least right up there, and that's the only ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

John Shull 40:14

Did you see this thing about Jim Carrey's face?

Nick VinZant 40:18

I saw no, not really, but he looks it. But was it real? Because I thought there was something that like it was not actually him,

John Shull 40:28

so that people were, well, I haven't seen any verified information that it was like a stunt double or something, but he doesn't look like himself. He is also in his mid 60s. So like, Sure, Botox and facelifts and things are going to look a little different on him at that age, but did not look like him.

Nick VinZant 40:49

No, there's definitely like and he's not somebody that you would think would get plastic surgery. He seemed to be out of the limelight a little bit, but I did not know those like, whoa. I'm not saying if it's like, there's other celebrities that have obviously gotten plastic obviously gotten plastic surgery that you can say good or bad. And I don't know if his was good or bad, but he certainly looked like a completely different person, completely different person.

John Shull 41:11

Yeah, that's crazy. This was just a weird one that really is probably not gonna go anywhere. But do you use chopsticks when you, you know, have a meal where you would use chopsticks? Are you a fork?

Nick VinZant 41:27

Guy? I try to use chopsticks, and I am just not able to manage it. And so eventually I just give up and go to the fork. I try, I give it an effort, but I don't succeed. And then I just give up.

John Shull 41:41

So I, what I end up doing is I try to right, but then I end up just stabbing it and eating it like a like a skewer. Because I'm like, like, Fuck this. Though I am pretty decent. I would give myself a rating of like three out of 10 for my chopstick skills,

Nick VinZant 42:00

okay, but you bring it down when you just start stabbing it right, like, it's fine to not be able to use it. But then don't go Neanderthal and then just stab the damn thing like me not know how use me. Smash like no. You can use other utensils. You are a civilized person. You have the capability to just do other things. You don't have to smash John. No, smash John. Remember, we

John Shull 42:24

were out eating somewhere, I think you with your fiance at the time, or girlfriend, I can't remember what she was, and you said that I ate like a

Nick VinZant 42:33

Neanderthal. Yeah, you don't hold utensils correctly.

John Shull 42:38

I mean, how are you supposed to hold you? I hold it like the way

Nick VinZant 42:41

that, like I can't I could just show you if I have a utensil, but the way that you were doing it is not appropriate, like you looked like Thog trying to use eat beans from a soup cup or something. It was, it was it was bad. It was the kind of thing like, oh, you can't do that. Manners used to be a big manners, I feel like used to be a much bigger thing. I don't know if, like, etiquette and manners is still taught. And I don't mean the idea of, like, being nice to people, being a good person. I mean the sense of, like, get your elbows off the table. Kids today. I'm not going down the kids today thing, God, you're such an old man that just wants to explain about stuff. No kids today. They don't even truck their napkins.

John Shull 43:21

You were the ones saying that.

Nick VinZant 43:23

I know, but shit like, I'm not going down this road with you. I'm not following you down this road. I don't care what the kids today do. The kids today are doing the same thing you did when you were their age. They're being kids today. Leave them alone. It's not any different than when you did. You just don't understand it.

John Shull 43:37

I didn't go after the kids. You went after the kid. You

Nick VinZant 43:40

go, you, you, you're going after the kid. You're trying to slip it in there. You're trying to bring it up constantly. Hey, what do you think about this and this and this? What do you think about the baseball strike zone being automated? Wasn't like that back when Horace Wagner used to play blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, are you done? You're an 80 year old man in a 40 year old man's body.

John Shull 44:06

Are you done? Yes, you brought that up. By the way, you were like,

Nick VinZant 44:12

going on the rant about brought it into me. And now I'm now I'm angry about it. I let my guard down and let my guard down for a minute, like, Okay, I'll play along with this. And then you went, old man complaining. Tell me about some submarines.

John Shull 44:28

Let's see what's what's the temperature right now in Rio,

Nick VinZant 44:31

what is the temperature right now in Rio? Do you think you can guess it? I have no idea what the temperature is.

John Shull 44:36

86 I'll say 74 Okay, all right. Let's see here.

Nick VinZant 44:41

I can't believe, for people who are new to this, John keeps the temperatures of various different cities throughout the world so and then earlier, he was complaining about how he wastes time. And he wonders, why?

John Shull 44:53

What did he put those two and two together and see if we get what did I say 74 and you said 86 Yeah.

Nick VinZant 44:59

What was it? 75 oh, is it nighttime? There? No, it's raining, though. Okay. I feel like, well, no, no, no, no, not doing this. Are you ready for our top five? Yes. So our top five is meme number combinations for people who haven't heard about, like, 6767, which my two children, who are seven and nine, say constantly, meme number conversations. And before you go into the kids today, thing we had them too. Everybody has some weird number convert combination for every generation that they get all excited about. What's your number?

John Shull 45:40

Yeah. I mean, mine aren't always memes, but they're definitely, you know, definitely popular. So my number five is 369,

Nick VinZant 45:52

my number five is also 369, Little John,

John Shull 45:57

Damn, you're fine. Girl. Keep it rocking to me one more time. Get low.

Nick VinZant 46:01

That's your number five. Yeah, my number five is 369, Little John can't like, if you don't know, you don't know. But if you know, you know the power like 369, which I still don't know, what it represents. Do you know what 369 represents?

John Shull 46:20

I'm guessing they were just numbers that rhymed. So he put them in there.

Nick VinZant 46:24

You think that's all it was. You think 369 is just because they rhyme. It's not because, like, it's some kind of code for something,

John Shull 46:31

unless it's, like, maybe an area code. But I doubt that, John, let's see 369 area code.

Nick VinZant 46:39

I'm already doing it. You look up the area code, it doesn't mean anything,

John Shull 46:50

yeah, 369, I'm just gonna run

Nick VinZant 46:54

it's a classic. What's your number four?

John Shull 46:57

My number four is probably the most boring one on my list, but I feel like it needs to be on a list. And that's 3.14 pi.

Nick VinZant 47:04

I don't feel like that should count. That's why addicts. It's not a meme. That's just a math. That's math.

John Shull 47:13

Sure it is. Every time that stupid day comes around, everyone's like, you want some pie. It's Pi Day, 3.1479 go. Fuck yourself.

Nick VinZant 47:22

No one has ever said that to me. I don't know what you're doing, that anyone has done that to you, or where you're hanging out, or any situation in which that has been brought up, but you're doing something wrong. No one has ever said something like that to me.

John Shull 47:36

Well, maybe that's different. I didn't grow up in Kansas.

Nick VinZant 47:40

My number four is 8008135, put that into a put it into a calculator, and turn it upside down, and you'll know what it is.

John Shull 47:51

Yeah, I almost did the what is it? 43110, for like, hello.

Nick VinZant 47:58

Oh yeah. 4311, was hell. Oh yeah, spells hell. 8008135, put it into the calculator, turn it upside down,

John Shull 48:09

and you're welcome. You're not You're not gonna like my number three then either. But my number three is 6660,

Nick VinZant 48:18

I don't I feel like that's biblical. That's too biblical to count.

John Shull 48:23

But okay, that's like, everyone's afraid of that. Like, that's a number combination that everybody knows. But like, everyone's afraid of it. It's like, oh, it's associated with the devil.

Nick VinZant 48:33

Like, I guess I'm okay with you putting 666 I just don't understand why you would put it at number three and not number one. Like, if you're gonna go that route, I don't know how that's not number one.

John Shull 48:45

Well, my number one, you're gonna hate So, but it's fine.

Nick VinZant 48:49

My number three is 8675309, okay, Jesse's is that Jesse's Girl? No, he said, 8677530,

John Shull 49:01

that Jesse's Girl? Yeah, no, it's by Tom Tommy two tone. Jesse's Girl was by Rick Springfield.

Nick VinZant 49:08

Oh, What's he singing about? 8675309,

Speaker 1 49:12

I want to make you mine

Nick VinZant 49:17

the song. I don't know any of the other numbers. I don't I wonder if the younger generation knows about 8675309,

John Shull 49:26

well, let me get back to that. One. My number two is 69

Nick VinZant 49:32

my number two is also 69 let's not discuss that and just move on that. We both have it at 69 because that makes us look

John Shull 49:41

like Sure. So my number one is 86753090,

Nick VinZant 49:46

I don't think that that's number one worthy at all. I don't think that's number one worthy at all.

John Shull 49:52

I think it's catchy. I think it's, you know, I think it's worth it. And I mean, it's probably not worth it to the generation below us, but if you know. It. You. You love it.

Nick VinZant 50:02

My number one is 420 because I think that might be the most timeless of them all, the 675309, the six seven, that's gonna pass, that's gonna fade. But I don't think that 420 is gonna fade as much. I think that's kind of like that stuck.

John Shull 50:21

I should have put that on my list that I've completely forgot about 420

Nick VinZant 50:28

Well, do you have any honorable mentions?

John Shull 50:31

Yeah, that one, and I'll also say so. The song, you know, that has 8675309, came out in 1981 so I think that stayed around for quite a while. So when you say it's going to fade away, I don't know if it's going to fade away, because what, what are we coming up on 50 years?

Nick VinZant 50:50

Yeah, but I don't think that you could go up to somebody who's under the age of 20 and be like, hey, 8675309,

John Shull 50:58

what's that mean? You know, Nick, it's the youth of today. There's a problem with them. Yeah, get off my lawn.

Nick VinZant 51:05

Kids going down the road. The only other ones that I had was double, oh, seven.

John Shull 51:11

Oh, that's a good one, yeah.

Nick VinZant 51:15

187, I think was big for a minute, but I think that was, I think that blipped in and out. I don't know about a six, seven thing. That's just kids being kids. I think whatever we say about them, like the point is for you not to get it. That's the point.

John Shull 51:29

I'll put 313, on there. Detroit's area code. No one cares about that. Everybody cares about that is

Nick VinZant 51:38

that the amount of people that were shot today, three, I'm ending it there. Okay, that's gonna do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps out the show. Let us know what you think is the best number combination, I think fair warning, it's gonna really date you. But let us know anyway, because I'm fascinated by like, there's just some things, some numbers, that, for some reason, just catch on.

The Science of Boredom with Boredom Researcher of Dr. James Danckert

Why do we get bored? Boredom Researcher Dr. James Danckert says boredom is a search for meaning. Our brains' way of telling us we need to find something new.

We talk why boredom is important, why some people get bored more than others and the most boring thing in the world.

Then, it's Hoop Dreams and Caddyshack vs. Miracle and The Karate Kid as we countdown the Top 5 Sports Movies.

00:00: Introducing Boredom Researcher Dr. James Danckert

01:07: Why We Get Bored

02:11: Why Boredom is Good

03:56: What Happens When We Get Bored

04:49: Why Some People Get Bored Faster

07:59: Boredom and Intelligence

11:10: The Flow State

12:42: Only Boring People are Boring

15:13: The Most Boring Type of Person

16:59: When Boredom Becomes a Problem

18:52: The Boredom Pattern

20:57: Social Media and Boredom

24:49: Pointless

40:42: The Top 5 Sports Movies

⁠Contact the Show⁠

⁠Our of My Skull: The Science of Boredom⁠

Interview with Boredom Researcher Dr. James Danckert

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode, boredom and sports movies.

James Danckert 0:20

Boredom is this uncomfortable state of wanting but failing to engage with the world. But what we find is that the boredom prone people tend to be those do the right thing. People that they tend to worry more about the options for action. And so if you find yourself in a moment of boredom, perhaps you can do the same thing. You can reframe the circumstance to be more meaningful, to be more purposeful for you, and now you won't be bored as much.

Nick VinZant 0:44

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he studies something that may seem boring, but it's actually fascinating. This is boredom researcher, Dr James Dan Kirk, why do we get bored?

James Danckert 1:08

There's lots of different reasons why we might get bored, right? The prime one that most people think about is monotony, if something's just unchanging over and over and over again, like, you know, that sort of monotony, that repetition, that nothing's changing, that can be very boring. One of the things that a colleague of mine, one end, Van Tilburg says, too, if we find things meaningless, right? So if what you're doing, you know you feel like you're constrained because you have to do it, you can't get out of it, but you're just looking at thinking, this is pointless. This is just doesn't matter to me. And I can't see how to make it matter to me. That'll make you bored as well. There are situations too, where you know, if you find yourself trying or being challenged to do something, but it's just way outside of your capacities. Maybe before you started, you thought it wasn't going to be maybe you thought you'd be able to cope. That sort of brings me to an aspect of boredom that's really critical. I think that when we're bored, it's sort of made pretty obvious to us that we're not being very effective agents, right? We're not exercising our agency, which is to say we're not pursuing goals that we've chosen in the way that we want to pursue them.

Nick VinZant 2:11

Do we need to be bored, though? Like, is there something in our brains that, like, look, boredom is is boredom good? In a way,

James Danckert 2:21

boredom absolutely serves a purpose in our lives. It absolutely has a function that's worthwhile for us. So I don't like to make the judgment is boredom good or bad? It's what we do with it that makes it good or bad, but the signal itself is useful. It's functional. And what do I mean by that? It's it's a call to action. So what boredom is telling us in that moment when we feel it. It's saying whatever you're doing right now is not satisfying you. It's maybe not meaningful enough. It's maybe not challenging enough. You need to find something else. You need to explore your environment for something else. And when you suggest that boredom serves a functional sort of purpose in our lives, you're also sort of hinting at the fact that it might indeed have an evolutionary history. If boredom is functional, then presumably it was selected for, and if it was selected for in evolution, then presumably we can see it in other animals, and you can so anyone that's owned a dog knows that dogs get bored, right? You come home and you've got one of your shoes torn up. Well, that dog was bored, and so he tore up his shoe. He didn't have any malice in it. So, yeah, boredom is evident in animals, and it has that evolutionary history to it, and it serves that function. It serves that purpose for us. It pushes us to act.

Nick VinZant 3:32

It kind of sounds like it lets us know what we don't like, and then opens us up to trying new things.

James Danckert 3:37

Yeah, you can say it that way. I mean, I mean, I think one of the things that's sort of frustrating and negative about boredom when you're feeling it, is that when you say, it opens us up to new things, it doesn't do the hard work of figuring out what those new things will be. That's on you, right? Boredom is not going to say, Oh, look, here's an opportunity. Boredom is just going to say, go find an opportunity.

Nick VinZant 3:56

Is there something physically happening in our brain when we get bored, like, you could monitor the brain and like, Oh, I see this. That guy's bored. That girl's bored.

James Danckert 4:08

So one of the things about being bored is that you're often disengaged. You're not You're struggling to focus your attention on the task at hand. And we've shown using EEG or electrical signals from the brain, that there are sort of specific signals that are normally associated with being able to focus attention, and those signals are diminished or lowered when we're bored, right? So that sort of fits well with this story that when you're bored, you're not focusing attention well. And so one of the things that's most commonly associated with people being bored, when you ask them How do you feel, is that they'll report being restless and agitated, and this is what differentiates boredom from something like apathy. If you're apathetic, you don't care.

Nick VinZant 4:49

Are certain people more than pre certain like predisposed to becoming bored? Do people get does it vary from person to person? How quickly they get bored?

James Danckert 5:02

Yeah, so we talk about trait boredom proneness, and so some people are high in boredom proneness, and some people are low in it. So there is a wide range of how often people feel it, and there are a range of sort of individual differences that we would talk about that make someone a little bit more prone to boredom. One of the common ones that we've researched a lot is the capacity for self control. And I want to be clear here about what we're sort of talking about. This is not what a lot of people think about in terms of sort of impulse control. So some of your listeners might be familiar with this marshmallow test. You know, you put a marshmallow in front of a kid, and you say, you can have that marshmallow now, or you can wait five minutes and have three, and most kids just stuff their face with the marshmallow, right? Because they don't show the impulse control to wait for the for the for the bigger reward. And there's all kinds of work sort of suggesting that that has long term consequences in their lives, because people who demonstrate lower levels of self control have poorer outcomes for mental health and achievement and so on. And what we find is the boredom prone. People who are highly bored and prone also tend to have lower levels of self control. They tend to also there's sort of different ways in which humans pursue goals, and one of the distinctions that social psychologists will make is between what's sort of colloquially known as a JUST DO IT mode, people who get on with things, people just go from one goal to the next, and they very rapidly transition. And then a sort of do the right thing mode, people who prefer to sort of assess their options and make sure that they make the choice that's the best choice, and make sure not to make errors, and so on. And you know, each one of us can adopt these modes at different times. It's not as though you're one or the other, right? And each of those modes is good under different circumstances. It's good sometimes to sort of weigh up your options and make sure you choose the right thing, and it's good sometimes to just get on with it. But what we find is that the bottom prone people tend to be those do the right thing. People that they tend to worry more about the options for action, so they tend then to fail to launch into action because they they haven't, sort of, you know, they're not comfortable with the choices that are in front of them. So that's an individual difference in how people pursue goals that is important. There are, there are a number of others as well. We find that people who high in neuroticism, so they tend to have a lot of worry about life. They tend to be higher in boredom, proness as well. And there's even things that like people who hire in what's known as covert narcissism. So covert narcissism is a person who sort of believes the world has failed to see their talents, has failed to see how brilliant they are, and so they're sort of a bit bitter about it, but they're not the arrogant in your face, narcissist. They're just sort of a bit bitter about the fact that the world hasn't recognized their skills and talents. Yet, those people tend to also be high in boredom promos. So those are the kinds of individual differences that we know about so far that are associated with being more likely to experience boredom.

Nick VinZant 7:59

Is it tied to just overall intelligence in any way?

James Danckert 8:03

So it's an interesting question that there's not a lot of research to suggest that it's tied to intelligence, that the more or less intelligent people are more or less likely to be bored. It does have an impact on achievement. So we find that people who are more bored and prone don't tend to do quite so well in school. But it's not a big difference. It's not as though a boredom prone person goes from an A student to a D student, you know. It's more like a couple of points that are a loss, but sort of fairly consistently. So intelligence, you know, hasn't shown up as a prime factor in boredom.

Nick VinZant 8:36

Promise, the big questions that I had going into this, right? Like, okay, well, why do we get bored? And then how do we how do we keep ourselves from getting bored?

James Danckert 8:44

It's the $64,000 question, and I get asked it a lot. There's a sort of triumvirate of things that you can do when you're in the moment of being bored. I'm not sure how well this helps the chronic bored person, but when you're in that moment, the first thing to do is to take a deep breath. So as I mentioned before, one of the most common things people report when they're bored is that they report feeling agitated and restless. Well, it's pretty hard to figure out what you want to do next or what you think would be a meaningful thing to engage with when you're restless, when you're agitated, when you're pacing around, right? So just to calm down, take a deep breath and allow that restlessness to dissipate. That's the first step. The second two steps are really contemplative. And the first one would be to say, Well, why am I bored right now? What is it about the circumstance I'm in? And what that allows you to do is to perhaps reframe it, to think about it differently. So you know, people who work on assembly lines are not always bored, because they can sometimes reframe the task. There's evidence that people on you know assembly lines will say that they try to beat their personal best on the line every hour. Well, they've just turned a monotonous and potentially boring task into a personal challenge, and now it's not boring. And so if you find yourself in a moment. Of boredom, perhaps you can do the same thing. You can reframe the circumstance to be more meaningful, to be more purposeful for you, and now you won't be bored as much. And the third thing is that the other contemplative aspect to this is to sort of spend some time considering what your goals are, right? So boredom is showing us that in this moment, what we're doing is to us, not very meaningful. Well, what is meaningful to us, right? We don't spend a lot of time in our lives thinking about that. Considering, what are the goals that I have? Am I pursuing them well? And if not, can I pursue them better? And when I talk about goals like that, I want to be careful about sort of setting people up for, you know, unrealistic expectations. I'm not talking about grand goals. I'm not saying that, you know, every time you get bored, you should start to ponder why you haven't yet cured cancer. I'm thinking about any type of goal that's personally relevant to you, and they could be big and small. It could be from anything, from, you know, wanting to sort of foster better relationships with your family and friends, or wanting to get something small achieved in a hobby. Doesn't really matter what the size or scope of the goal is. What matters is that it matters to you.

Nick VinZant 11:10

I think of always in terms of like opposites. And the only thing that I can compare it to that I've heard about is like the flow state, where somebody, usually it's like extreme athletes are just totally, totally, completely focused. Can we learn anything like, does the opposite of boredom? Teach us anything about boredom?

James Danckert 11:30

Yeah, I think it does. But I think what I would say to you is that there are many opposites of boredom, and flow is only one, and flow is a fickle, fickle beast. I mean, any of your listeners who've experienced it. You know, the thing to contemplate about flow is, have you ever intentionally tried to make it happen? And I think that the answer to that is that it's very, very hard to do like you know, you you find yourself in flow almost accidentally at times. So there's two things then that I'd point out as opposites of boredom that I think are key and help us understand boredom a little bit better. So boredom a little bit better. So one is that the opposite of boredom, in all its many forms, is just being engaged. So if you're engaged with the world, either because you're curious or you're relaxing or you're in flow, then you can't be bored, right? So that is the sort of opposite of boredom. And the second thing is that it gets back to this notion, I think, of agency. So when you're the one that's in control, when you're the one choosing what you're doing. Now I don't think it's I think it's very hard for me to imagine also being bored. You're demonstrating to yourself that you're the agent, you're the author of your actions, and in that state when you're successfully expressing your agency, I think it's very hard to be bored.

Nick VinZant 12:42

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Fantastic. Yes. What do you think about the saying only bored people are boring?

James Danckert 12:50

Yeah, only boring people get bored. It's a moral judgment, and I don't think it's right. What I think it says is that people who make that claim just deal with their boredom exceptionally well. So in the book that I wrote with my colleague, John Eastwood, out of my skull, we interviewed. We had the good fortune. I had the good fortune of interviewing Chris Hadfield, who was the Canadian astronaut who ran the International Space Station in the 2010s and Hadfield claims that only boring people get bored, and that he never gets bored. And then you have a conversation with him that goes on for a little while, you find out that's not true. He gets bored. So he grew up on a farm in southwestern Ontario, and he describes, you know, plowing the fields. You see, he really enjoyed plowing the fields. You'd see this open field in front of you and your plowed field behind you, so you could see your progress, and you can understand that, that you know you're achieving a goal and you're doing a good job. But what he really hated was this other job he had to do, which was known as as harrowing, and harrowing I had no idea what this was. He's apparently plowing a field that's already been plowed. So you're breaking up big chunks of mud and making it into smaller chunks of mud. So in front of you is mud, behind you is mud. You can't see your progress, and it's boring. And so he said that whenever he had to do that, he would challenge himself by trying to see how long he could hold his breath for. And I'm like thinking in the back of my mind. I didn't want to insult the guy, but, you know, probably not the greatest idea to be doing something like that while you're, you know, piloting heavy machinery. But that's alright. The point being that Chris Hadfield indeed gets bored, but when he does, he almost immediately finds something to occupy his mind that puts the boredom aside. And so I think that for the people who say only boring people get bored, what they're really saying is that, you know, when I get bored, I'm really quick at dealing with it. So why aren't you? And one of the things too, that we know from a recent study, again from from a colleague of mine in the UK, one Anne van Tilburg, is that there's actually characteristics of boring people that are not about how often they get bored. We code people as being boring if they don't listen to us. So if people who. Sort of a bit more narcissistic. And I mean now the kind of grandiose, overt narcissistic that commandeer every conversation and never really listen to what you've got to say, kind of think of those people as being bores. Why are

Nick VinZant 15:13

some people boring? Though, right? Like some people are just like, God, that person's boring. Is it is it them, or is it me?

James Danckert 15:22

The thing that that came out in that more recent study was that, yeah, people who just don't listen. You know, if you're in a conversation and you don't engage the other person, we all want to feel like what we do matters, but if you're the only person talking and you're the only one that's got anything that you think is relevant, then everyone else is has to sort of take a back seat, and that is not really the best way for social interactions to evolve. And so I think that's one of the main characteristics that makes makes us code other people as being boring.

Nick VinZant 15:50

Is there like, is this a mathematical formula in some way? And maybe this is a great analogy, maybe this is a terrible analogy. But can you look at certain things and be like, Okay, that is going to be boring to people. If you make a movie about this, and you put this in it, and you put that in it, and you put this in it, people are going to get bored, like, can you look at things and be like, that's boring. That's not,

James Danckert 16:15

not really, because it's it is a kind of, you know, what makes something boring or not boring is a little bit like happiness. What makes you happy is sort of idiosyncratic to you, right? I can't sort of tell you, you know what, you should do this, because this makes me happy. I shouldn't do that, and hope that somehow that that's going to work for you. And it's the same thing is true of boredom. Whatever makes me happy, or whatever makes me bored is unique to me. You know, there's millions of people out there who are philatelist that spend a lot of their time pouring over stamps and looking at stamps, and they get great joy out of it. And many of us might look at that and say, I can't imagine anything more boring. Well, too bad you don't have to, because, you know that's that just means it's not for you. So I don't think there's anything that we can point to and say that that's an objectively boring thing.

Nick VinZant 16:59

I know there's not a way to like rank this in terms of a scale of one to 10. But how big of a problem is boredom for us? Yeah, like, is it an inconvenience? Or is like, No, this is a real problem for some people.

James Danckert 17:12

Yeah, I love this phrase that someone gave me, a journalist actually gave me many years ago now that she thought that boredom was just part of the furniture of life. You know, it should be a trivial thing, and I think that people have treated it as a trivial thing, as part of the furniture of life, but it's not. It's not trivial at all. So it's, it's associated, you know, chronic boredom. So boredom proneness is associated with higher levels of poor mental health, so increased rates of depression and anxiety. It's associated with problems of addiction. So people who are highly bored and prone tend to be more at risk of alcohol and drug addiction. It's been associated with problem gambling. So people who express problem gambling, particularly people who are addicted to slot machines, they will report that they're on there because they're bored. So it's associated with a lot of ills of mental health. It's also associated with things that sort of from a societal perspective, we were really, you know, wouldn't encourage so there's a strong association between boredom and aggression. There were riots in the in the streets of London in 2011 and when people were interviewed, particularly young males, were interviewed afterwards, they said, why did you join in? Why did you join in the looting? They said, ah, it was the end of summer, and I was bored. So it's not inconsequential. And we also know it's not inconsequential from the point of view of two other domains that I think are worth pointing out. One is education. We know that if you chronically bored, that you won't do as well in your education, and so it's incumbent upon us to try and make our education as least boring as we possibly can. And I think there are other occupations where boredom could be a real hazard. So if you think about any occupation that has a high requirement for vigilance, you really need to be paying close attention to your job, but it's also monotonous. So think air traffic control.

Nick VinZant 18:52

Is there any kind of pattern to boredom, in the sense that, like people are most bored at Tuesday at 3pm or is there any kind of pattern, either throughout our days, in the sense that, like this time of year, this time of day, this day of the week, or throughout our lives, we're like, you're probably most bored between 10 and 20, or actually, it's between these ages. Is there any patterns to it?

James Danckert 19:20

There is a pattern over the lifespan. Boredom sort of tends to start rising in those early teenage years. We need a lot more data on this, but the data we do have says that it tends to rise, then it starts to sort of peak at age 17 or 18, and then starts to dip. And that's a really important point in our development, because around those late teenage years in the early 20s, that's the final stage of brain maturation. So you start to do what's called myelination, which is essentially this fatty coating that goes around your neurons and aids transmission of information. And so that myelination of your frontal cortex that's happening between 17 and 22 you're not really. Are fully developed until those early 20s years. So around that time, when you're developing the frontal part of your brain, that's really critical for self regulation, self control, goal, pursuit, decision decision making and so on. Around that time, your boredom starts to drop, and it drops off into the, you know, 20s, 30s and 40s and 50s. And in part, some of that's going to be about responsibilities. You know, Who among us has the time to be bored when you're pursuing your career, when you're raising your children, when you're doing all these other sorts of things? And then it does show there are some instances now where we see a rise into the 60s and beyond. And one of the notions there about that rise at the latest stage of our lifespan is that it's sort of strongly associated with loneliness, and so we talk about a social connectedness in that age range. And if that the people that have a good social network and good social connectedness tend not to be bored in their 60s, 70s and beyond, but for those of us who find ourselves not as connected, then boredom can become a real

Nick VinZant 20:57

problem. What's social media doing to us?

James Danckert 21:01

Technology is ruining my brain. I love this question in some senses, because there's this notion that Socrates said that that writing things down was going to ruin our brains. He was worried that if we wrote down all of our knowledge, that that would mean that our faculty for memory would just disappear. And the irony of that is, of course, that we wouldn't have even known that had Plato not written down the things that Socrates said. So you know, we have these sort of notions that every new technology, whether or not it's the pen and paper, or whether or not it's the internet, or whether or not it's social media, every new media is going to ruin our brain. So from the outset, I would say, No, it's not right. It's going to do amazing things for us. But it is also true to say that for some people, for a handful of people, and the evidence at the moment is about 4% our attachment to our phones and to social media can become problematic. So we actually talk about the phrase used is problematic smartphone use, and it has characteristics that are very much like addiction. So you continually ramp up your use of the phone, or you continually ramp up how often you turn to social media. You feel anxious when you're not with your phone, or you're not on social media. Those two characteristics are very much the characteristics that you see in addictions to substances. And that work from John al high and colleagues and from people, there's a couple of labs in China that are doing this, work shows that boredom is a real driver of this, that when we're bored, we turn to our phone because it's an easy occupation thing, right? It occupies your mind very quickly and very easily, and has the bells and whistles like a slot machine and like advertising, social media has figured out the ways to capture our attention, and so we turn to it, and it sort of like dissipates the boredom immediately, but it doesn't do a very good job long term, because we go down the rabbit hole of Twitter and we find that we've spent half an hour or, God forbid, longer, and then you get off it and you think, Well, what did I just do for the last hour? Right? It's not particularly meaningful, and it's not particularly fostering the goals that we want to pursue.

Nick VinZant 23:03

That's pretty much all the questions I got. Man, is there anything you think that we missed, or anything that like, oh, we should be talking about this, or anything like that? One thing I

James Danckert 23:11

would say is that we know too that boredom proneness is associated with self esteem as well. So people who are high in boredom proneness don't have very high they have lower self esteem. And one of the things about that we're in the process of investigating that further, there's a related concept of self efficacy. It's not quite the same as self esteem. Self esteem is about I feel good about who I am. Self efficacy is I believe I can do this right? I know I've got the skills I'm capable and I think that people who are bored and prone will have low self efficacy as well, that they won't feel like they're necessarily capable to reach the goals that they might set for themselves. And I think if that happens early in life, there's going to be long term consequences. So a lack of a sense of self efficacy as a young person you know will carry through into your into your life in negative ways. And so, you know, we always come up with the problem that these are correlations, these individual difference traits. It's very hard to talk about cause. So, you know, will, will it be the failure of self efficacy or elevated boredom that causes the problems later on, it's going to be very, very hard to determine that without longitudinal studies, but, but yeah, I do think early on, if you cope better with boredom when you're a very young person and into your teenage years, that will probably be associated with much more positive outcomes later,

Nick VinZant 24:33

I want to thank James so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. What do you think is the best day of the week to take off?

John Shull 24:58

The best day is either. Monday or a Friday, because then you'll get a three day weekend.

Nick VinZant 25:03

Oh yeah, it's definitely between Monday or Friday. The question is, which one of those is it?

John Shull 25:09

But I'm not gonna lie, I don't I'd put a Tuesday or a Thursday up there as well.

Nick VinZant 25:16

Oh, okay, Thursday. I could see Tuesday. No, I don't understand the point of taking a Tuesday off.

John Shull 25:24

Tuesdays are the, usually the longest day of the week, right? Because your your past Monday, yeah, still got a long way to go. So if you can kind of just hop that hurdle and get straight to Wednesday, the week's already half over, yeah,

Nick VinZant 25:37

but then you working Monday, you're taking Tuesday off. So it's really like you've got two Mondays in some way. That's why I don't think Tuesday is going to be good. I could see Thursday getting a little bit of love for a good day of the week to take off, because Friday is kind of Friday is kind of an off day. I would actually say, my I'm going to go with Monday. I'm going to say Monday is the best day of the week to take off, because Friday's kind of already off a little bit.

John Shull 26:07

I'm happy for you. Friday is because usually, like, you have more plans on Friday night than you do on Monday nights.

Nick VinZant 26:15

Yeah, you can make you can take advantage of a Sunday so what's your day? Which? What? Which one are you picking? At the end of it, I'll pick up. I'll pick Friday. Oh, well, that's wrong. It's Monday. Okay. I polled the audience about this. It was close. 43% said Monday. 9% said Wednesday. 48% said Friday. Okay.

John Shull 26:41

I mean, that's, that seems about right? That's probably what the consensus would say. I would think,

Nick VinZant 26:48

I think taking Monday off makes the week easier. Taking Friday off gets you a head start on the weekend. Is that it? That's it. That's all I got. Man, what? A little bit distracted by the fact that your sweater slash jacket slash whatever that thing is, matches your wallpaper.

John Shull 27:06

I even have a look at I have like, a little boob pocket, or whatever they call it. Oh, the

Nick VinZant 27:11

chest pocket. Yeah, hmm. I don't think I've never seen, I've never seen any value in the chest pocket. I don't think I've ever once put something in a chest pocket.

John Shull 27:25

I think it's a very old school thing, like my father used to put pens and cigarettes in there and lighters.

Nick VinZant 27:33

That's that's the only thing. It's for cigarettes. The chest pocket can only be used for cigarettes and pens, I guess, if you work in some sort of data or engineering field or medical, but otherwise it has to be cigarettes.

John Shull 27:47

All right, here's some shout outs for you instead. Let's see. We'll start with Adeline, Glenn, Zaid, Whitehead, Jamari, Corona, Nixon Stein, Jasmine, Sweeney, zaile case, Abdullah, Foley, Cassidy, Duarte, Matteo, Lee and Paige majia.

Nick VinZant 28:08

Oh, I like the name Paige. I always like the name Paige. That's a good name. Paige Chloe. Those kind of traditional but slightly different names for a girl. Can't go wrong with the page.

John Shull 28:24

Good talk. Let's see. I really, I'm hoping that this is a good conversation, but I know you're gonna shit on it right away.

Nick VinZant 28:34

Okay, okay, okay, so at the bar low, set the bar low.

John Shull 28:39

All I'm gonna say, my I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask one question, and how you answer that, I'm just gonna move on or continue. All right, okay, okay, did you watch the gold medal hockey game?

Nick VinZant 28:49

No, I did think about it. I did think about it, but I did not watch it.

John Shull 28:55

Okay, well, I said I would move on, so I'm gonna move on.

Nick VinZant 28:59

Um, were you a fan game? Was it like? Was it a good game?

John Shull 29:05

I mean, it was from start to finish. It's probably the best hockey game I've ever seen from start to finish. Wow, not my favorite moment, but best hockey game start to finish, and damn it Nick but the highlight of the game by far, was so Team USA was heavily represented by the state of Michigan. I should point that out there the the game winning goal scorer, him and his brother are from Metro Detroit, but regardless, in the third period. The guy's name is Jack Hughes. You know what? I should bring up this photo to show you, have you seen it? You've seen it, right? No, Jesus, I don't.

Nick VinZant 29:48

Man, none of the I don't know a single thing about anything that you're talking about. I didn't watch the game. I don't know who Jack Hughes is. I'm not even sure where Michigan is. Is it still a part of the United States? I don't think that it is. That's.

John Shull 30:00

Her. So just everybody out there bringing up, and I'm sure people out there know what this is. I'm showing Nick a picture of Jack Hughes. So you see that dude's mouth.

Nick VinZant 30:08

It looks like a hockey player, right? Like I like to see, is that blood? Or is that the mouth guard?

John Shull 30:14

That's blood. So in the third period, he took a he took a high stick to his chicklets there, knocking out three of them, right? And that's the remnants, by the way, the aftermath. So they go to overtime. He scores the game winning goal, right? Yeah. I don't think you can get a more American looking photo than that. I mean, that's a fantastic photo, right?

Nick VinZant 30:36

Well, I mean, if he had a gun,

John Shull 30:39

maybe an eagle on his shoulder,

Nick VinZant 30:41

Eagle and yeah, but

John Shull 30:44

in saying that, it was a fantastic moment. The men's and women's USA hockey teams won gold, which is fantastic if you're an American fan.

Nick VinZant 30:53

Um, no, I just No no, because, like, look, my opinion on the Olympics, I've stated it before, is that the United States should win. We have 350 150 almost 350 million people. We're the richest country on earth. Like, we should win every event. So, like, when I hear the United States beat somebody else in this sport, like, yeah, we probably should have.

John Shull 31:14

But I think it's a little sweeter, because it's Canada, right. There are neighbors. They're like this, you know, our step brother, stepsister, whatever, and, like, that's their sport. Is hockey, right? That's Canadians is hockey.

Nick VinZant 31:27

It's still the population thing. Like, I just, I can't really get into it, just because it's like, hey, we beat it's like, the big city beating the town of 10,000 like, yeah,

John Shull 31:39

should have I understand what you're saying. But do you feel the same about like the World Cup? Are you not going to be excited when the US beats? I don't know, Peru, no,

Nick VinZant 31:51

because we should, like you probably won't, by the way, right? Like we should win it. You should. You're the biggest you're one of the most populated, richest countries on earth, you should win. Well, I just, I can't get like, I can't get super excited about like, it's like, keeping your kid out of jail, like you don't get credit for that. You should win.

John Shull 32:13

To your point, by the way, the United States came in second in metals,

Nick VinZant 32:20

Norway, nor which is crazy. Like, how do we lose to a country with a population of like, I don't even it's probably in the single millions. That shouldn't happen.

John Shull 32:30

Norway's population is 5.7 million compared to our 342

Nick VinZant 32:37

billion people, right? Like, I don't see how we can get excited about this. I just don't think that you can get excited about it, because you're essentially like, we have cities that are bigger than that. So I can't, I can't, in my rational, logical brain, really get excited about like, yeah, you probably should have

John Shull 32:54

that's fair. All right. Fine. Well, that, as I figured, that went to shit. Dr, MC steamy, nothing. No, I don't know that is okay. Well, he passed away last week. Eric Dane, pretty young. Dr, mix, oh, like, you know who it is now.

Nick VinZant 33:14

No, I don't, but I know, like some there's been a lot of celebrities that have been going early.

John Shull 33:18

He's been, he was married to Rebecca, gay heart, if you remember her.

Nick VinZant 33:22

No, how do you know all these things, like, how

John Shull 33:27

do you know who that is? Where is my phone?

Nick VinZant 33:31

No, I mean, like I've seen she looks kind of familiar. Is that to me she looks like Denise Richards?

John Shull 33:39

Yeah, similar so. And they were pretty popular at the same time back in the, you know, mid 90s, early 2000 How do I know this? I don't know. It's just pop culture.

Nick VinZant 33:49

Like, I've never been a huge pop culture person.

John Shull 33:52

I mean, I can tell you they're still looking for Nancy Guthrie. Did you know that?

Nick VinZant 33:56

I don't think they're at this point. I don't think that they're going to find her anytime soon. I just, like, don't think that's a crazy one.

John Shull 34:05

We talked about this a little last episode. I just, I don't get it, man, with everything and technology and like, now they're saying that the suspect apparently visited her house, you know, hours before. It's like, but you couldn't track her movements from when she left the house.

Nick VinZant 34:19

Like, well, she's not micro chipped.

John Shull 34:25

You said it really well last episode is, I've never lived in the desert or in an area that is desolate like that. So, you know, there's a lot of places where you could do something to somebody, and it's going to take,

Nick VinZant 34:39

I mean, once you, like, once you get out of the city, I don't really know. I'm always like I said before, I'm always equally surprised that they can't find them and that they can at the same time, and I don't know which one is which.

John Shull 34:54

This was an interesting question that was brought up and kind of debated, at least amongst my household. And if you had to sit down and watch one movie franchise from start to finish, would it be Star Wars or Lord of the Rings? Well, now my Okay, let, let's put a limit on Star Wars, because I know there's like 15 of them. We'll say four, five and six, the original trio that came out, you know, the 70s and late 80s, or mid 80s, I should say, or the three Lord of the Rings movies.

Nick VinZant 35:27

The three Lord of the Rings movies, I think, are the stronger movies. But once you go into like, the Battle of the Five Armies and The Hobbit trilogies, oh, man, that starts to wear on you a little bit. And Star Wars doesn't have a lot of great movies outside of the original trilogy either. Although I can make a strong argument that Revenge of the Sith is one of the best movies that they have, I wonder which which one takes the longest to watch? Which franchise would take you the longest to watch between it's probably either bond or Avengers or the Marvel movies. Yeah, it's probably, I bet it's James Bond, because they've got, like, almost 30 of them. I think.

John Shull 36:11

Have you ever seen any of those? Like the the James Bond movies, the originals, like, you know, the 60s, 70s ones? No, I

Nick VinZant 36:19

don't think I've watched, yeah, Pierce Brosnan is probably the first bond that I watched. I don't think that's a movie that you go back and watch those really.

John Shull 36:29

So according to this, the Godzilla franchise would be one of the longest to watch, because of it's 30 plus movies,

Nick VinZant 36:38

oh, because they've made so many of them. But then I feel like that is a little bit then if you also added in, like Marvel animated movies, depends how they what was else was on there? The Godzilla? Did they give you a top five? Because now I'm really okay, can I guess it? While you look this up, I'm gonna go ahead and guess okay. I'm gonna go Godzilla only because we now know that, then probably the Marvel movies and movies like The first Hulk don't count, like it has to be in that Avengers kind of timeline. They all tie together. I'm gonna go Godzilla, Avengers, ish movies bond,

John Shull 37:24

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings. So, I mean, I'm looking at this on the fly. I don't think this is correct, because this is Batman is number three, because he's been in seven movies.

Nick VinZant 37:41

Well, that would make sense. There's been a lot of Batman movies, even if you don't count the ones like Justice League or suicide squad or whatever, that he's kind of like he's there, a little bit

John Shull 37:52

like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's called, has as of 2025, 37 plus movies. So that's pretty long. Yeah, there's two that I've never even heard of, Taurus on which is a Japanese series that went for about 55 years, that had over 50 movies.

Nick VinZant 38:15

I feel like other countries don't count.

John Shull 38:18

Okay, gotcha. So it's MCU, Batman, bond in Godzilla. Those are the top four according to longevity and how many movies were made.

Nick VinZant 38:30

Hmm, okay, I would then go Star Wars, then Lord of the Rings, because there's just more Star Wars movies and Lord than they are. Lord of the Rings stuff, yeah, if you put in, if you put in TV shows, ooh, Star Wars might catch up there. Okay, Alright, which one was right? What would What did you want to watch Star Wars or Lord of the Rings?

John Shull 38:51

Oh, well, don't actually, I just, I just rewatched Lord of the Rings. The theatrical release is not the extended versions.

Nick VinZant 39:01

Oh, have you ever, I've never watched an extended version of any movie.

John Shull 39:06

I have like, it's fine, I guess. I don't know. I think, I think that it's taken out for a reason. Most times, like, there's no reason why a movie should be four hours. There just isn't.

Nick VinZant 39:19

No my How long is your perfect movie?

John Shull 39:24

Between an hour and a half to two hours? I mean, I like, I like a good you know, I don't know how you feel, but if I'm gonna invest my time in movies, I like it to be an actual movie. You know what? I mean,

Nick VinZant 39:36

I don't know when the last time that I would say that I sat down and watched a full movie, like front to back. Just watched it. It might it could be. It's definitely more than 10 years.

John Shull 39:53

Well, got pretty sick the last week, so I think I watched about 15 movies. So. Oh, I caught up in a lot of the movies I wanted to see, which was nice.

Nick VinZant 40:03

So when are you going to admit that you want people to feel sorry for you when

John Shull 40:06

you get sick? I don't. I don't want it all.

Nick VinZant 40:09

You try to get a little bit of sympathy when you get sick. You try to get a little sympathy. You probably throw in a fake cough.

John Shull 40:20

I mean, nobody needs you. Don't need to know how many throat lozenges I sucked out coming on, lozenges. I'm sorry, did you say sausages? Lozenges?

Nick VinZant 40:30

I'm sure you had plenty of sausages. Well,

John Shull 40:34

no, I'm throat sausages. I'm going, um, I tell you, the weather here, though, has been pretty crazy.

Nick VinZant 40:42

Oh my god, I'm not talking about that. Yeah, I guess we're gonna go, let's just go to our top five things. I know this is you're gonna probably go on about this forever. Are we? We're moving right on. Okay, that's fine. Move on. On to it. Okay, so our top five is top five sports movie movies. Sorry, top five sports movies. What's your number five? Man?

John Shull 41:01

I feel like I've I could have done a, I could have done probably, like an every major sport top five list, I think so this was okay, okay. This was by far, probably detail. I mean, obviously we like sports. I like sports a lot. This is tough. So here we go. My number

Nick VinZant 41:18

five one question is one, real quick, one real quick, one question, um, in any of the movies that you picked to the team, to the team you're rooting for win, or because you're in Detroit, where they've never won anything of consequence, do you always like, are you allowed to watch a movie? Do you Do you even understand the concept of winning? Because there winning. You can't watch any movies with champions, because you're not a champion. I'm a champion. So only I can watch movies where there's a championship on the line. Like, I don't know if you could even relate to the concept of a championship. Do you know, have you heard the word

John Shull 41:57

I have I Yeah. I mean you're right that? I mean, the Detroit Red Ring Red Wings haven't won the championship in a few years, but they did win it in

Nick VinZant 42:07

my lifetime. What sport is that?

John Shull 42:10

Hockey, which we spent five minutes talking about earlier.

Nick VinZant 42:14

Oh, okay, I'm only considering major sports.

John Shull 42:17

What's major sports to you?

Nick VinZant 42:21

Basketball, it's essentially just football. It's essentially football. It's football. Football is the biggest sport in America. Oh, but I won the Pee Wee leagues. Oh, great, congratulations. No, guys, I was really good in high school. That's what you're doing right now. God, we have a we got a really good high I didn't say that's what you're thinking. That's what you're thinking. That's what your mindset is. It's not a championship mindset. You don't understand what it's like to be a champion, not a champion. John, not a here's Okay. Let's get into our top five with John, not a champion shawl. Well, you

John Shull 42:56

know what that's that's a perfect segue, because my number five is about a person who you're right, never became what he thought he was going to be. And it's a it's one of the best movies I've ever seen, not just sports movies, but my number five is the wrestler.

Nick VinZant 43:15

Oh, that's a good movie. I thought about putting the wrestler on their list, but I also feel like that's, that's one of those things where, oh, that's kind of his life, too, at the same time, like that character was a little bit close to his life,

John Shull 43:29

because I can tell you, being a professional independent wrestler.

Nick VinZant 43:32

Oh, okay, sneak it in there. Sneak it in. I like it. I like that.

John Shull 43:36

That doing that, especially back in the day when you know when you had to do it, like there was no other outs for for certain people, like, if you wanted to try to make it, I mean it, it is excruciating. I mean it is, I to be honest with you, and I'm not putting down the business. I don't know how people, I mean, have that much love for something. Like, I love professional wrestling. I could not do it like these amateur and indie people do it. I mean, it's, you're going, like, you're spending years going out in front of 100 people, sometimes maybe 50 to make a hot dog. Like, still,

Nick VinZant 44:18

you have to be, I'm sure that it's the roar of the crowd, right? Like, it's something that you can just, you can't get that kind of feeling in anything else.

John Shull 44:27

Well, it is awesome. And like I said, we've, I've only been in front of like 200 people, it is awesome, especially when they like, chant like, this is awesome, or like, some random stranger tells me to go F myself, like, you know it's good,

Nick VinZant 44:42

have you? Do you have a wrestling name? Could it be John? Not a champion? Show, actually, no, the championship. That'd be a good wrestling name for you. I am

John Shull 44:51

a champion. Thank you very much. I would have a ring because we had an event this past Saturday, but I couldn't go to it because of my. Sickness, but I

Nick VinZant 45:01

have, my God, that's why you're not a champion. I was sick. I was sick. You think? Anyway, the rock or John Cena is like, I got a little cold. Guys, I can't go to Wrestlemania.

John Shull 45:16

Wow, I would. I wouldn't. I don't know if I would miss Wrestlemania.

Nick VinZant 45:21

Anyway, it's gonna be Buttercup. My number one Buttercup.

John Shull 45:27

My number five is the wrestler. What's your number five?

Nick VinZant 45:30

The Big Lebowski. Big Lebowski is a sports movie. It's about bowling. Bowling is at the center of Big Lebowski. Big Lebowski is a great sports movie.

John Shull 45:44

I am all about, you know, sports being a secondary theme, and it's still being a sports movie, but I don't think of The Big Lebowski, and the first thing I think about is bowling. It's up there.

Nick VinZant 45:58

Though, any sports movie is really just a story about, like, perseverance, and that's what the dude is doing. He's on a quest to find out what happened with his carpet

John Shull 46:08

well, so my number four is overcomes obstacles, yes. And my number four is Caddy Shack.

Nick VinZant 46:16

Oh, that's, yeah, okay. I think that's way too low to have Caddyshack. I think Caddy Shack should be much higher. My number four is a karate kid.

John Shull 46:25

Okay, I I have that on my honorable mention. I mean, it's probably the only mixed martial arts movie that I've like seen and say that I'll like,

Nick VinZant 46:35

yeah, it's the I would, yeah, yeah. I mean, does Roadhouse, Roadhouse a sports movie? No, no, not really. I guess, no,

John Shull 46:48

that's no, that's not a sports movie.

Nick VinZant 46:52

Karate Kid is the best MMA or mixed martial arts related movie by far? I don't think anything even comes close to it.

John Shull 46:59

Good Road House, you would bring up Roadhouse man, Kurt Russell, baby. Like, is that? Yeah, okay, yeah. For a second I was, No, it isn't. It's Patrick Swayze, which

Nick VinZant 47:12

is what I thought. Patrick Swayze, see, yes, that's my theory. You don't even know. I do. What's your number what's your number three?

John Shull 47:19

So this is going to be controversial, and I I left rocky off the list.

Nick VinZant 47:27

Then it makes the list wrong. Rocky has to be on there. I mean, are you going, ooh, that's another one that would actually be a really long franchise. Is all the Rocky movies. There's like five Rockies. There's like, a bunch of creeds.

John Shull 47:42

I will argue to say that rocky isn't even the best Rocky in the franchise. Oh, I agree with that 100% but in saying that, I do have a boxing movie here at number three, and it's Million Dollar Baby. Oh, okay, you familiar with

Nick VinZant 48:01

that at all? Yeah, it's, yeah. I mean, that I wouldn't have picked

John Shull 48:05

it's, it's the ultimate story of, you know, just how you work, work and work for something, and then, the blink of an eye, everything's changed. I don't, I don't know if I want to give the plot away, but it's, you know, I believe Hillary Swank won best actress. I think I might have been, but one Best Picture, not that, you know, Oscars really mean a lot to me, but like, it's, you know, I think what Morgan Freeman's in it, Clint Eastwood, I think directed it like it's did true story

Nick VinZant 48:37

based On true story.

John Shull 48:39

I don't know, but it's, it's a, I've never forgotten a certain scene, which, once again, I won't spoil the movie, but it's, you know, it's, it's one of my it's, it's like, I don't know how to say it's not one of my favorites, but if I'm, if I'm ranking sports movies, it's on my top five list of sports movies for just the moments itself,

Nick VinZant 48:58

my number three is a movie that maybe a lot of people have not heard of. Tour de pharmacy, which is a comedy, kind of spoofing the Tour de France, and it's all just about how they take massive amounts of like performance enhancing drugs. It's one of the fun it's one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. I like Tour de pharmacy.

John Shull 49:20

It's, funny because I have, I have Icarus on my honorable mention, which is the Icarus,

Nick VinZant 49:26

Icarus, Icarus, yeah, Icarus.

John Shull 49:31

I have Icarus on my list because of, you know, just the power of that documentary and what it tried to expose, which is, you know, the doping scandals that rocked the cycling world.

Nick VinZant 49:44

Oh, is that what it's about? I just know it's Icarus. I don't know. Actually know what it's about at all. I thought it was a rugby movie,

John Shull 49:54

not about No, you're no, you're no, you're thinking of Invincible or no, um. You're thinking the one with Matt Damon, God dang it. What's it called? My number two is rocky four. And Victor Rocky is what it's called.

Nick VinZant 50:10

Rocky four, in my opinion, is the best Rocky movie by far. I don't think it's particularly close. I don't think it's particularly close.

John Shull 50:17

Soundtracks perfect. Like everything about it is pretty much spot on. If he dies, he dies, all right, my number it's gonna be sappy. He's gonna be sappy. I don't think we did my number two. Oh, maybe not. My number two is Major League.

Nick VinZant 50:38

Oh, yeah, that's a good movie. I don't know if I could get it in my top 10, but that is a solid movie. No, I'd probably be in my top 10.

John Shull 50:46

I don't think a movie captures the craziness of like a sports team better than that. You have, you have dudes sleeping with other dudes wives, other people doing this. And that gets, you know, it's, it's, it's incredibly insane. So number one, my man, once again, kind of tough, but not at the same time. But my number one is, Remember the Titans?

Nick VinZant 51:12

Oh, I've never seen that movie. Guess I don't remember the Titans. Is it a follow up to the is it a sequel to the Titans? Please stop just the psycho. Is the sequel? It's not a sequel to the Titans. When you Remember The Titans,

John Shull 51:31

I don't want them to gain another yard. You blitz all night, man. It's about, it's, I mean, it's, I don't want to explain it to you. How have you never seen

Nick VinZant 51:44

it? I forgot about the Titans. I guess

John Shull 51:49

it's incredible. It's, it's maybe one of the greatest movies I've ever seen.

Nick VinZant 51:54

My number one is Caddy Shack. The greatest movie I've ever seen. Caddy Shack, that's the kind of movie I want to watch. I don't really want to watch movies to be inspired. I don't really want to watch movies to have some deeper message about perseverance and championing through and how life can knock you down, but you got to get back up. I want to watch a movie about Caddy Shack and see Rodney Dangerfield

John Shull 52:18

Well, and that's the difference. You don't need that inspiration because you're already a champion.

Nick VinZant 52:24

Thank you. Like now you understand the championship mindset. You don't need to watch a movie about Everest. You don't need to watch a movie about mountains when you're already on top of Everest. You know what the view is like? I don't need to be inspired. I'm a champion. You need all this motivation because you're so used to losing again and again and again. Like, you've got to find the way to persevere, to lose again.

John Shull 52:46

Yeah, you're, you're legit already there. Like, already there.

Nick VinZant 52:49

I'm already at the top. I don't need to watch a movie like that. That's, that's good inside, John, that's the smartest thing you've ever said. Thank you, at least today.

John Shull 52:57

Thank you, proud of you. Like, oh, I got a hefty, hefty honorable mention. Do you care?

Nick VinZant 53:06

Okay, let me hear all your honorable mentions, and I'll give you thumbs up, thumbs down on each one.

John Shull 53:10

All right. Here we go. Wait. How is everyone out there gonna know you gotta say,

Nick VinZant 53:15

I go, like, I'll give you me. All right, yeah. All right, perfect. Or again it

John Shull 53:25

I hate you. All right. Let's see. Here we go. The original Rocky, it's all right, doesn't before varsity blues,

Nick VinZant 53:37

everybody in small town America thought there was that was their town when that movie came out that's just like us. The Sandlot, it's okay, it's overrated, not as good. It's it's better in your memory than it is in reality. Mystery Alaska, don't even it's a mystery to me. I don't even know what it is miracle. Be a miracle, if I watched it days. Oh, wait. Is that

John Shull 54:12

with Will Ferrell? Nope, that's Tom Cruise, yeah, Tom Cruise. And what Talladega Nights was the Ricky Bobby One that will

Nick VinZant 54:22

Talladega Nights is the better movie. That's, if I'm gonna watch a racing movie, it's gonna be Talladega Nights and not Days of Thunder, okay?

John Shull 54:29

Bull Durham,

Nick VinZant 54:33

nothing, if I've ever heard of it. This

John Shull 54:38

is, this is actually quite fun. Kingpin.

Nick VinZant 54:43

Gets overshadowed by the better bowling movie Dave or Big Lebowski. I kind of remember Kingpin, a little bit Woody Harrelson, Bill Murray's like something, okay. I couldn't

John Shull 54:54

remember Randy Quaid. It's fantastic. All right, getting down to the bottom here, blue chip. Oops.

Nick VinZant 55:03

I don't remember which one is that. One is that? Shaquille

John Shull 55:06

O'Neal Yeah, Nick Nolte, college basketball team.

Nick VinZant 55:10

Oh, man, Shaq can't

John Shull 55:15

act Raging Bull,

Nick VinZant 55:17

supposedly one of the greatest movies of all time. But I've never seen it. I don't even know if that's, that might be something that is supposed to be one of the greatest movies of all time, that I don't even know if I've ever seen a YouTube clip of it.

John Shull 55:31

It's, it's well done. That was in the, I think that was in the, I would argue to say that the run that Robert De Niro had in the late 70s, early 80s of movies was one of the greatest runs of any actor ever. I mean, he had taxi driver. He had that. I mean, he was just spitting out bangers for like, three, four or five years.

Nick VinZant 55:57

The only thing that I would put up against it would be Arnold Schwarzenegger with a good, like, a run of really good movies that people liked you. De Niro had great performances. But I think that you could put say, like, oh, Schwarzenegger had a big run of movies that were pretty iconic.

John Shull 56:14

I mean, he had the Godfather at that point too, when those, when the other ones kind of came out. I mean, all right, let's see last but not least, Space Jam.

Nick VinZant 56:27

Oh yeah, that's a movie that, like, it's not a movie you go back and watch though, like, I'm gonna watch watch Space Jam, yeah, you know what I really want to watch again, Space Jam. Like, I don't know how to see that happening.

John Shull 56:43

Well, like any anything, they had to remake it with Lebron James, and I don't think it was very well done. I haven't seen the remake.

Nick VinZant 56:51

You can't remake a movie like that. Okay, I'm gonna give you some and you say something, okay, hoop this would be the only kind of serious movie that I thought about putting on. There is Hoop Dreams.

John Shull 57:01

Yeah, good movie. I mean, now one of my favorites that's like, white man. White Man can't jump. White Men Can't Jump. To me,

Nick VinZant 57:08

oh, that's a good movie. Yeah, that, that was a started, a whole thing that, really, that threw white men under the bus for a good 20 years. I don't know if we've ever really gotten out or the bus that was ran that run over us and White Men Can't Jump.

John Shull 57:26

Well, looking back on it, I'm not sure Woody Harrelson was the right actor to play that role.

Nick VinZant 57:32

Oh no. He was great. Do you know a white man who could was there a better was there a higher jumping white actor that you thought of? I mean, like man they should have gotten Josh Brolin. He could jump. He had Hobbs.

John Shull 57:44

What was that late? That was early 90s. I mean, yeah. I mean, I don't know, probably not. I mean, Woody Harrelson was perfect, but not perfect for that role. I don't know. I don't know how to explain my way of thinking. Air Bud. Move on.

Nick VinZant 58:04

Who makes I just want to know what the economics of the Air Bud franchise is like. Who is me? They're making money off of this. Yeah, I was see here lucrative to be making these movies with a dog. And they made like 40 of them. There's Air Bud, golden receiver, like Air Bud was doing all kinds of stuff.

John Shull 58:26

So I don't know if this is correct. This can't be right. The original Air Bud made almost $40 million at the box office. Wow.

Nick VinZant 58:39

Wait, but how much did it cost? Well, made or, like, because, like, in Yeah, earned, or whatever I think people earn, yeah, I can't use the right words necessarily, but there's a difference between, like, okay, they sold $40 million worth of tickets, or the movie made $40 million like, what was the production budget?

John Shull 58:59

I need to take up 20 seconds and name you off the entire Air Bud franchise, the Air Bud France. Here we go, starting with the first movie released August 1 of 1997 and we're going to end with a movie that is slated to be released in August of this year. Okay. Okay. Here we go. Air Bud. Air Bud, golden receiver. Air buddies, Snow Buddies, space buddies, Santa buddies, the search for Santa. Pause, spooky buddies, treasure buddies, Santa. Pause, two, oh boy, Super Buddies. Pop star, better together. Pop star, just pop star, pup star, World Tour, Puppy star Christmas and due out this August Air Bud returns.

Nick VinZant 59:48

Man, that's a good that's I don't I lost count after I we passed three and I lost interest in counting. That's absolutely okay. That might be longer than the Lord of the Rings franchise.

John Shull 1:00:00

Is I just I so I don't want to be that guy. But how many air buds Do you think they've gone through over the last 30 years?

Nick VinZant 1:00:10

Probably actually know the answer to this, because a long time ago, actually probably, like two or three years ago, we had a guy on that was a Hollywood animal agent, and he said there was around 14 different air buds that they used for the golden for one of the movies. For one, yeah. I mean, you got to have a lot of dogs, good God. And like, Could you really, if you're talking about pure bred dogs, could you really, like, look at a couple of Golden Retrievers next to each other and be like, that's a different one. No, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out and let us know what you think is the best sports movie. I like irreverent I think, is the word sports movies. Those are my favorite. John likes the more feel good sports movies, the more inspirational sports movies. But again, he's not a champion. Doesn't know what it's like to be at the top. That's why he's always trying to motivate it to get there. I've been at the top. I'm a champion. Don't need to be motivated. Time to relax. I.

Consciousness Researcher Dr. Ned Block

What is consciousness and where does it come from? These are two questions Consciousness Researcher Dr. Ned Block has spent his entire life trying to answers.

In this episode we talk the origin of consciousness, what happens to our consciousness when we die and if AI (artificial intelligence) is already conscious.

Then, it’s grape and cherry vs. mango and pineapple as we countdown the Top 5 Drink Flavors.

00:00: Introducing Dr. Ned Block

01:02: What is Consciousness

04:01: How We Study Consciousness

06:26: Consciousness in Humans

07:47: What We Know About Consciousness

09:50: Why is Consciousness Important

11:15: AI and Consciousness

14:19: Consciousness and the Subsconscious

16:45: Consciousness In Other Animals

17:44: What Happens to Your Consciousness when You Die

20:01: Misconceptions About Consciousness

21:05: When We Developed Consciousness

25:02: Wild Consciousness Theories

26:06: Pointless

55:42: Top 5 Drink Flavors

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Interview with Consciousness Researcher Dr. Ned Block

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode consciousness and fruity drinks.

Dr. Ned Block 0:20

Consciousness is super important. It's important with regard to suffering. What is suffering? It's a form of consciousness. I'm a believer in the consciousness being located pretty much in the back of that. So we've only been getting real data about the brain for 30 years,

Nick VinZant 0:43

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he studies what makes us us. This is consciousness researcher, Dr Ned block, what is consciousness?

Dr. Ned Block 1:04

People often make a distinction between a couple of different senses of that term. The kind that's most interesting is what is often called phenomenal consciousness, which is what it's like to have an experience. Some people say the redness of red. The thing is, you can't really define it. You have to kind of point to it

Nick VinZant 1:26

when we talk about it. Are we talking about it in a philosophical sense, or are we talking it more of in a biological, physical sense? Is this something that we could say there's consciousness, we can point to it. We can find it in a brain image, or whatever. Or is this more something that exists, kind of a night as an idea?

Dr. Ned Block 1:46

The most clear version of this is just an idea. The idea there is that we have as the you know, energy impinges on our sense organs. We that create signals in our perceptual areas of the brain, and then they compete with one another, and some of the those those activations lose out in the Battle of the competition, and only one or two of them get sent to the frontal and parietal cortex in the front of the head and the middle of the head. And those are once they're once they're sent that way. There can be used by any cognitive system, reporting, deciding, betting, and that's called Global broadcasting.

Nick VinZant 2:39

It kind of sounds to me like something is interpreting all of the information that is coming in and then making a decision around that.

Dr. Ned Block 2:47

You're thinking of the mythical i Who is interpreting everything, but actually the brain is a whole set of subsystems with, you know, processing done of different things in different areas?

Nick VinZant 3:02

Yeah, I guess in my mind, when I'm picturing my consciousness, it's just sitting here in my brain, like there's just a space here in my Bane brain, and there's this little entity that is the consciousness. But it sounds more like, no, really, it's all over the place, and this part's doing this, and that part's doing that.

Dr. Ned Block 3:20

I'm a believer in the consciousness being located pretty much in the back of the head and in the systems that do the processing. So consciousness of motion is done in the motion areas in the back of the head, known as v5 it's a one. The early, early vision is the areas are numbered, v1 v2 v3 v4 v5 but a conscious of color would be in a different part of the brain, and I think the consciousness is in those areas. Why is

Nick VinZant 4:01

it so hard to figure out? Like, why haven't we just pinpointed this thing down?

Dr. Ned Block 4:06

That's because it's very hard to separate the conscious experience from the processes involved in thinking about the what you've seen or heard. The general category here is consciousness versus cognition. And let me give you an example of an experiment. Okay, so there is this phenomenon called binocular rivalry, and the idea of that is, if you have one picture sent to one eye and a different picture sent to the other eye. For example, a house in one eye and a face in the other eye. And what vision scientists have discovered is that if you present these properly, people's. Experience will be first a face in their whole visual field, then a house in their whole visual field, then a face again, then a house again. I do this routinely in my classes with red and green glasses and a red and green superimposed image of a face in a house. And everybody experiences this. It goes on forever, face then house, then face, then house. Okay, so the stimulus is the same, but your experience changes. So you might think all we have to do is look at the brain and see what's changing when people are aware of a face versus when they're aware of a house. And that experiment has been done many times, and the problem is that what's changing is both the representation in the face area and the house area, but also the cognitive areas, because when you see a face, you're thinking stuff about the face. When you see a house, you're thinking stuff about the house, and then the question is, where do you draw the line between the the experience and the cognition of it, that's the problem.

Nick VinZant 6:28

Makes me wonder, right? So are, are all of our consciousnesses in the general sense? Are they all the same, or are they all different to the extent that we could all just be experiencing the world in totally, totally different ways.

Dr. Ned Block 6:43

Well, that is a topic much discussed, so the best version of it is what's called the inverted spectrum hypothesis. Things that you and I both call green look to you the way things we both call red look to me. In other words, my green is your red, my red is your green. So this was in historically, first proposed by by John John Locke, historically, this many people thought in the especially with the legacy of Wittgenstein, that this was nonsense, that it made no sense at all. It was like talking about, what time is it on the sun? So Wittgenstein's example was, Is it five o'clock on the sun? Well, the trouble is, five o'clock only makes sense with respect to an earth centric time zone, there is no answer to what time it is on the Sun

Nick VinZant 7:48

if you were kind of gonna put things on as, let's say, a scale of one to 10. Yeah, 10 is the highest 10. We got this whole damn thing figured out. One we don't even know where the brain is. Where do you feel like we are in terms of consciousness?

Dr. Ned Block 8:04

Oh, maybe two or three. Two to three, it's we're really at the beginning. One thing to remember you you may not know this because you're too young to know this, but you know fMRI, which has been the workhorse of brain scanning for some years was only brought online in a usable form in the late 1990s so we've only been getting real data about the brain for 30 years. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 8:35

Do you think that we'll be able to answer those questions, or is this just fundamentally a thing like, God, we can't figure this out, and we might never well,

Dr. Ned Block 8:44

there is this thing called the hard problem of consciousness, that is a term given to it by my colleague David Chalmers. And the hard problem is that even if we know what the neural basis of an experience is that would not tell us why it's the neural base of that experience instead of some other experience or no experience. So the you could, you might be able to get a good correlational understanding of what consciousness is in the brain. But why that's the neural basis of consciousness might be much harder to find out. Some people think we'll never solve it. Other people think, well, we just have to keep going and see if you know, we need a breakthrough. We need we need a new theory. And then still, other people think there's something wrong with the question. It doesn't really make any sense

Nick VinZant 9:49

for somebody who might be listening to this and just thinking, I have no idea what these two people are talking about, like I am so lost. What does this kind of ultimately mean? Conscious?

Dr. Ned Block 10:00

Is super important. It's important with regard to suffering. What is suffering? It's a form of consciousness. So if we want to know whether what we're doing to animals is bad, we need to know whether they suffer. So, for example, some people think insects are conscious. Were we to discover that insects are conscious, then there would be a lot of pressure to be careful about the use of insecticide, and then there's AI. So many people are concerned about AI welfare. That is whether the AI systems we have are suffering and whether we need laws to protect them. So this issue of consciousness is not a purely academic issue. It really it impacts real world policies and the pressure to make some kinds of decisions will get ever stronger as AI gets more sophisticated, and as that, as we learn more about animals.

Nick VinZant 11:13

Could, I mean, could humans exist without it?

Dr. Ned Block 11:16

Well, it looks like sophisticated reasoning requires consciousness, although nobody knows for sure, because the AIS do sophisticated reasoning and maybe they're not conscious. So we did the I guess maybe the right answer is we don't know.

Nick VinZant 11:36

This kind of gets into some of our harder slash listeners submitted questions. So are you ready for some okay, sure, yeah. Does our consciousness change? Are we the same person every day, every year, every month, every etc, like that. Does it seem to change? Or is it like, no, it's barely standard.

Dr. Ned Block 11:53

I think the fair answer to that is we don't know. You know, most people report that they're pretty much the same today as yesterday.

Nick VinZant 12:02

So we're made up of cells and all these other things that I can't quite remember. Like, exactly what we're made up of, like are, those are my cells, part of my consciousness. Is my bones, part of my consciousness. Or there are

Dr. Ned Block 12:17

these people called pan psychus who think that everything is conscious, I myself don't take that too seriously, and I know you'd have the hard trouble finding a neuroscientist who takes that seriously. For one thing, it wouldn't solve any problems, because even if the electrons and protons in our body are conscious, you have to explain how putting those things together makes us conscious.

Nick VinZant 12:48

They don't take it seriously because there's proof that it's not or just like that's way too like, when you're taking you're taking this way too far.

Dr. Ned Block 12:57

Look, everything we have discovered about consciousness is based in the brain. So if you here's a here's a sample, when you attend to something, it looks slightly bigger. My colleague Marissa Carrasco in the psych department at NYU, has shown conclusively that when you when you focus your attention on something, it slightly increases in apparent size. And she has explained that neurally, the way it works is, in our visual system, we have what's called a receptive field each neuron, namely, it's aimed at a certain area of space. And what happens when you attend is the neurons. If your receptive field of a neuron is right on the object you're attending to, the surrounding neurons start focusing on that area too, giving a larger brain area. So the reason something looks bigger when you attend is there's more brain focusing on it. So we can explain something about how things look, and the explanations are always in the brain. So looking to somewhere else is not going

Nick VinZant 14:19

to work, I know, so we have the conscious and the subconscious, but how can things be happening in my brain that I'm not aware of that's always fascinated me, right? Because, you know, like, I don't know exactly where my hands are, but my brain knows where my hands are, but I'm not thinking about where my hands are. So like, how can is that part of my consciousness, like, how can I be aware of things I'm not conscious about?

Dr. Ned Block 14:45

You know, everybody who's an academic has had the experience of posing a question to themselves and then doing something else where they relax executive control and then the answer. Done by the guys in the back room just presents itself to us. So there's a lot of reasoning that appears to be going on unconsciously. You know, many people have described this, and you know, we're all familiar with this happening. You're worried about something and then you think about something else, and then the answer pops into your head. A lot of people report that that happens when they're in the shower, yeah, because when you're in the shower, you're thinking about, you know, you're just your mind, your your mental control is relaxing, so

Nick VinZant 15:39

like, my brain is consciously processing things that I'm not consciously aware of.

Dr. Ned Block 15:45

It's unconsciously processing things that you're not consciously aware of.

Nick VinZant 15:50

Then am I missing out on like, is that a good thing, or am I missing out on so much of the world?

Dr. Ned Block 15:57

Well, you're missing out on a lot of your reasoning process. But, you know, maybe it works better if you're missing out

Nick VinZant 16:04

on it. Yeah, you can only think about so many things, right? Yeah, and

Dr. Ned Block 16:08

maybe there are that kinds of things that are just better done unconsciously.

Nick VinZant 16:12

Does there seem to be any rhyme or reason for like, Okay, this type of thing is going to be done unconsciously, and this type of thing is going to be done consciously.

Dr. Ned Block 16:20

It looks like certain kinds of pattern reasoning, pattern recognition reasoning is is better done unconsciously, whereas multiple steps that you have to keep in mind, maybe that requires consciousness in humans.

Nick VinZant 16:39

It sounds kind of like the brain needs the boss to leave the

Dr. Ned Block 16:42

room Exactly.

Nick VinZant 16:45

Are we the only things that seem to be conscious, like my dog is over here. Is my dog conscious?

Dr. Ned Block 16:51

We have every reason to believe that higher primates are just as conscious as we are. They have many of the same conscious phenomena. So here's an example. If you see a spiral going this way, and focus on it, and then you look at a white wall, you'll see the opposite spiral. So it's called sensory adaptation. And animal higher primates, they all do that. They all have that same experience, including, like the first one was to be studied with gorillas. So the way you do that is you train the gorilla to make one response if it's going this way, and another response if it's going that way. And then you show him this thing, and he makes that response, and then he looks at a white wall. You show him a white screen, and he makes the other response. What happens when we die? I think you turn into dirt.

Nick VinZant 17:47

Can we look at a brain and be like the consciousness is gone?

Dr. Ned Block 17:51

Well, when there's no neural activity, you know, the consciousness is gone.

Nick VinZant 17:55

It's not something that like because you know, the inevitable question is, but could our consciousness somehow continue in another form.

Dr. Ned Block 18:03

There's no evidence for that at all. It would be nice, but no, I don't think so.

Nick VinZant 18:09

Is it something we could transfer?

Dr. Ned Block 18:11

Ah, well, that is a topic of much interest. Can we upload our mind to the cloud or transfer it into a more youthful brain, or transfer it into a machine. And you know, if you think that consciousness depends on the biology of the brain, then transferring your mind to the cloud is going to make your mind unconscious. So that's what I think. I think it's the biology of the brain that's crucial,

Nick VinZant 18:46

since we're talking about kind of uploading, which reminds me of computers. Do you think AI is conscious?

Dr. Ned Block 18:52

Well, I think it's a topic of a lot of discussion. So you know one way of approaching it is to ask whether the theories of conscious human consciousness apply to machines. So for example, one of the theories that I mentioned is the global workspace theory. So does aI have a global workspace? Well, many people think no, because our current AI systems, anyway, are mostly feed forward and the global workspace, in fact, every theory, every major theory of consciousness says a feed forward system is not conscious, a purely feed forward system, because in the human brain, all conscious activity by according to any theory of consciousness, requires A lot of feedback, with loops, feedback loops and so there is an issue as to whether there really is a global workspace in current machines, or whether we can make a global workspace in current machines. So I would say that this is one of those questions that nobody knows the answer. Or two.

Nick VinZant 20:01

What do you think is the biggest misconception about consciousness?

Dr. Ned Block 20:05

The biggest misconception is to confuse Access Consciousness with phenomenal consciousness. Hate to

Nick VinZant 20:12

kind of retread old ground, but I'm still kind of, I don't quite understand the difference between Access Consciousness and phenomenal consciousness. Access.

Dr. Ned Block 20:21

Consciousness is a purely informational notion. It means, if I see a red thing, it means that I can say, I can report that it's red. I can use the fact that I'm seeing a red thing and reasoning. I can ask myself the question, well, if I'm seeing a red thing, why is it red? How did the red thing get here? Whereas phenomenal conscious is just raw experience,

Nick VinZant 20:46

just kind of living life versus thinking about a particular thing, is that a dumb guy way of, kind of looking at it?

Dr. Ned Block 20:52

No, it's the kind of experience that maybe a baby has, even if it doesn't know, have any concepts of anything, and can't reason about anything. It's just raw experience.

Nick VinZant 21:05

Do we seem to have consciousness from the very beginning? Ah, yeah, that, yeah.

Dr. Ned Block 21:12

So there's very good evidence, actually, much of it done by my colleague here at NYU Claudia. Pass us very good evidence that newborns are conscious. And there's a lot of research on fetal consciousness. And, you know, nobody really knows, but definitely, by by, by the time a fetus is born, it's, it's, has conscious experience.

Nick VinZant 21:38

I mean, could somebody exist without it. Is there any documented cases of somebody being alive and not having conscious experiences?

Dr. Ned Block 21:48

Oh yeah. People in the people in a persistent coma may not have any conscious experience,

Nick VinZant 21:54

any with somebody like just going about their day? Oh no, none

Dr. Ned Block 21:58

of those. But you know, are there are these cases of hydrocephalic infants, that is, infants born without a Cortex, and there is a real question as to whether they're conscious.

Nick VinZant 22:13

What do you think is the single most interesting thing you've learned about consciousness?

Dr. Ned Block 22:18

I think the thing that has gotten me most excited recently is reasons to think that consciousness is some kind of a an analog process that cannot be understood computationally. So, I mean, there's no hard evidence on this, but, you know, there's the the evidence is accumulating, I think that it isn't a computational thing, that it depends on waves in the brain and the electrochemical activity in the brain. So that's quite exciting, because it's a different focus. Instead of focusing on the computations, we can focus on more the mechanisms, the electrochemical mechanisms.

Nick VinZant 23:03

Can we go back, right? So, obviously, we're descended from apes. Can we go back and be like, Okay, what was our nearest ancestor that maybe wasn't conscious?

Dr. Ned Block 23:13

There is a controversy about what the first animals were, and the controversy is whether they're sponges, which have no neurons, and a kind of organism called the comb jelly. So turns out the comb jelly have a purely electrical neural net. Whereas we do not have a purely electrical system. We have a system with neurotransmitters. So we have neurons where, when a neuron fires, it emits neurotransmitters into the soup around the neurons, and then they're taken up by other neurons. That's how your brain works. It works with electrical signals changed into chemicals. Those chemicals are then taken up by another neuron, turned into electrical energy, and then more chemicals get injected into the soup. So that's how your brain works. The tenophores, the comb jellies, their brain doesn't work like that, and they are an evolutionary dead end. The next stage up, cnidarians, which include the sea anemone and true jellyfish, those are much more like us, and they even have a sleep wake cycle recently discovered. And you know, although they don't really have a brain, their nervous system seem more akin to ours. So I think that's the place to look for the first. Glimmers of consciousness.

Nick VinZant 25:02

Your favorite conspiracy theory, slash wildest theory about consciousness, that

Dr. Ned Block 25:07

consciousness is an illusion, that there is no such thing that we've convinced ourselves that there is. There are lots of people who think that

Nick VinZant 25:18

if we're not conscious, then what are we?

Dr. Ned Block 25:22

Yeah, well, many people pointed out that there's something slightly self contradictory about this, because what does it mean to say it's an illusion? An illusion is an appearance of something, but an appearance is a conscious experience. So if it's an if there's an appearance of consciousness, then we're conscious.

Nick VinZant 25:40

Perception is reality, right? Like the simple thought that you the simple fact that you had that thought proves that you are conscious in some way. Yeah, exactly. I want to thank Dr block so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. What do you consider to be the perfect number of drinks?

John Shull 26:15

I mean, I have two follow up questions. One, alcohol, or like, soda, alcohol.

Nick VinZant 26:22

I mean, I was really gonna make fun of it, but then it's like, okay, that's a legitimate, no, that's not a legitimate question. Like, alcohol, what do you consider to be the appropriate number of sodas? Like, you can't, you cannot just sit there and pop can after can of soda. You can't. You can't just, all right, but are you gonna have another one right after that.

John Shull 26:41

That's my eighth today. Is it really? I'm kidding. Actually, I haven't had a verner's. My stomach's a little upset today, so I'm having a verner's, which is good.

Nick VinZant 26:53

If you're stuck your stomach is upset. So have some. It's ginger ale. That's good ginger ales. It's still soda. It is. The original is ginger ale supposed to be good for your stomach. Does it say? Like, good for the gut on the

John Shull 27:06

western thing? I wouldn't expect you to know what it is.

Nick VinZant 27:09

I'm from the Midwest. I'm far more Midwestern than you are. I'm from Kansas.

John Shull 27:15

What am I? I didn't Well, so yeah, what's Michigan? Then, if we're not Midwest shit hole that's so terrible.

Nick VinZant 27:23

Most commercial ginger ale is not an effective remedy for an upset stomach, despite urban legends that it is. Yeah, because it actually, it does not actually have any ginger according to the Cleveland Clinic HEALTH ESSENTIALS, does ginger ale help with nausea?

John Shull 27:38

No, I'm pretty sure they made a movie called Urban Legend, so it's real.

Nick VinZant 27:44

I don't think

John Shull 27:46

my, my, my second question to your question is, well, like, what kind of drinks are we talking about?

Nick VinZant 27:57

Why does everything have to be so calm? Are we doing shots? John? What? What date? John, what day is it?

Speaker 1 28:03

Well, are we doing shots? Are we

Nick VinZant 28:05

going by the Gregorian calendar? Wondering, are we going by the common era calendar?

John Shull 28:10

So, so here's my answer. If it's shots, for me, it's gonna be four to eight. If it's high ABV beers, which is what I drink only, like 10 percenters.

Nick VinZant 28:21

Oh my God. What a snob thing to say. What an absolute snob thing. Because high ABV, because high ABV, because that's something that people say in casual conversation. Whenever I ask somebody better about a new drink, it's like, hey, what's the ABV? I mean, you should, what proof is it? No, you shouldn't. That's such a snob thing to say, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna use this Akron. I don't think so. I don't think it's snobby. It's just no one uses that in casual conversation. Nobody would say something like, here, I'll tell you what to be a plane Jay Here, try this beer. It's six

John Shull 28:53

ABV, simple. I'll say this for me, it's six to 10 drinks at a night.

Nick VinZant 29:00

That's that's more. I think that's probably going to be more than most people your age,

John Shull 29:05

probably because they're also either straight liquor or high percentage beers. Like, if I'm doing Coors lights, probably have 20 of them in a night. I don't, but I could, oh, my god,

Nick VinZant 29:16

yeah, my number is way lower than yours. Like, my perfect number is around two to three. Yeah, that's about where I want to stay. Is just a little bit buzzed, but is okay? Is that number for you a little bit buzzed, or more than a little bit

Speaker 1 29:31

buzzed, barely buzzed, to be honest? Wow.

Nick VinZant 29:35

Well, I guess when you're throwing when you just bring up ABV, casual conversation, have you ever actually said that to another living human person?

John Shull 29:43

Yeah, it's quite common amongst my friend group

Nick VinZant 29:47

to talk about high like, what's the ABV this beer?

John Shull 29:49

Like, if you're opening a beer, then it's not, you know, it's not a Coors Light, Bud Light, blah, blah, blah. That's, well, I mean, what is it? My friends know me as the guy who's gonna hand you a 12. Percent beer, so they want to know what the ABV is,

Nick VinZant 30:05

and they say ABV,

John Shull 30:07

yeah, or what percentage, or Yeah. I mean, I don't, I think you're, I think you're downplaying ABV. I think it's actually a quite common term in the drinking world.

Nick VinZant 30:19

I've never heard it before, until right now. I mean, I've heard it before, but I've never heard someone actually say it until right now. Is you guys? Do you guys have a group name? Is it called the insufferables?

Speaker 1 30:28

No, actually, it's the good times.

Nick VinZant 30:32

Do you really have a group Have you ever had? Okay, good, all right, because if you had a group name, we call ourselves the blah blah, blah, and like, No, I'm not hanging out. I'm not hanging out with people who use I

John Shull 30:45

will tell you this. I went out on Valentine's Day with we went out with another couple. And before we went out, here's just a shot, right? A snapshot we had. Yeah, we had three shots in an entire bottle of Saki before we even left the house.

Nick VinZant 31:03

Oh yeah, that's I don't drink that much anymore. I'm you and I used to be about the same level of liking drinking, and now I am not. It has fallen off a lot for me.

John Shull 31:16

Well, I think, I think my, I think my time has hit below i But the problem with me is, and I think a lot of people out there can agree, or, you know, go along with this, is it's not that I drink every night. I might drink once a week, but when I drink once a week, it's 10 beers at 300 calories a piece, and then I have four dinners. Like, that's not okay. That's a whole week's worth of shit, essentially.

Nick VinZant 31:40

Yeah, that's the problem, man, you can't you have to. You have to embrace modern moderate, moderation as you get older. Anyways, I swear that I've gotten stupid in the last six months.

Speaker 1 31:51

Why? Because you stuttered, no,

Nick VinZant 31:54

because my brain just doesn't seem to work as well as it did six months

John Shull 31:57

I am finding that I'm having like, I'm forgetting things. And I don't know if that's stress, I don't know if that's just getting older or a combination of both, but like today, I sent a text to somebody at like 10am I sent the same exact text at like 6pm and they were like, long day, huh? And I was like, What do you mean? And they're like, You legit. Told me this eight hours ago.

Nick VinZant 32:18

Why didn't you just look at the text message history and see like, Oh, I already sent this.

John Shull 32:23

I clear because we had texted enough throughout the day that that was gone, you know. So, oh,

Nick VinZant 32:29

okay, yeah. Anyway, okay, okay, yeah, all right. Well, you are in the vast majority. 70% of people said zero to three. 16% said three to six, 12% said six to nine, and only 4% said more than 10. I think alcohol has really taken a big hit in society. I think the sales are down like 50% I think alcohol is kind of a thing in the past.

John Shull 32:52

Alcohol is the new cigarettes, so, but somebody will find an alternative that appeals to the next generation, or like vaping was big. I don't know if maybe it still is, like, somebody will come up with, like, something. I think cannabis water is on the rise, I think right now, or cannabis something like, I

Nick VinZant 33:11

mean, we're always going to want to, like, change our mental state in some form or fashion. But I do think that alcohol is like, oh, it's kind of bad for you. Like, that's not really good for you. I mean, it is. It does kill things for a reason.

John Shull 33:24

Yeah, yeah, I do think, yeah, it's not, but it just tastes so good. I actually,

Nick VinZant 33:31

oh, really, I don't. I don't like the taste. I've never liked the taste of it.

John Shull 33:34

I don't think anyone the next day after getting that drunk or buzzed or whatever, when you have a headache or maybe you've done something you regret, or you don't remember. I don't think any nice drink, by the way, love those star Starburst ice. I don't think anyone, I don't think anyone goes man. I can't wait to do that again, but yet you do it anyways.

Nick VinZant 33:54

So, oh yeah, because I think that ultimately you are chasing that slight buzz that, to me, is the best. I just want to be a little

John Shull 34:03

one thing I've never understood, because I've never been an alcoholic, and I'm not saying that to be funny, is I still know how people can drink. You know, 15 to 30 Bud Lights a day, like, I just, I mean, at some point even I would be like, man. Like, these are just the my I'm just bloated. Like, I'm not even, I don't even want anymore.

Nick VinZant 34:23

Oh, you mean, like, how physically well, I mean, they're just addicted. Like, I think at that point you're addicted. Your body needs it. It's not like, Hey, man, I'm having a great time here.

John Shull 34:31

Yeah, but I'm addicted to pizza. I had three, you know, Smalls over the weekend. Three smalls

Nick VinZant 34:40

is that the name of a pizza or the size of the size of the pizza? Why didn't

Speaker 1 34:47

you just get it? I was joking.

Nick VinZant 34:51

I could see you doing that, though, honestly, like, No, I'm gonna buy three small and she just get one large. No.

Speaker 1 34:56

Well, anyways, we'll see what the future holds. Okay.

Nick VinZant 34:59

Well. Oh, that was my question. I thought it was much smarter earlier today.

John Shull 35:06

I yeah, I do have a question for you, and I you can gras me if you want on this, but do you believe in the Best Buy dates on food products?

Nick VinZant 35:18

Not really, but I'm not willing to risk it. So especially when it comes to meat, like I'm not pushing a couple of days past the by date, like, I don't believe it, but I'm not going to be the I'm not going to plant my flag and risk it at that point. Do you

John Shull 35:36

so meat is probably the only thing that well, meat and milk products, like, if a yogurt is, you know, three days old by the best by date, I won't eat it like i and it could be perfectly fine. I'm sure it's pasteurized enough and all that good stuff, but milk and meat products I don't mess with.

Nick VinZant 35:56

Oh, I'm okay with, like, bread, if it's the kind of thing where I can see visually that there's something wrong with it, then I'm okay with going way past the Best Buy date, but I'm not gonna mess with like, milk, cheese, eggs, any kind of dairy, like, anything that you can be like, Oh, you can get really sick off that. I'm not gonna mess with it all.

John Shull 36:17

I'll say is, it truly is incredible when you see what actually is made from real ingredients, and what isn't and what lasts longer, insane. Is

Nick VinZant 36:30

this going to be a snob thing? No, why did you, why did you bring this up? What was the impetus for

Speaker 1 36:35

this? The impetus, okay, wow,

Nick VinZant 36:38

I know I was pretty I was as I was saying. And I was like, I hope I'm using that word right. And then I realized, like, I am using it right. So much for getting dumber, like I talked about earlier. You don't use a word like impetus, impush, three syllables, the imp, did you do the clap method?

John Shull 36:55

The impetus was, No, I did the finger method. Impotence. Anyways, why did clap? Uh, because I was going through my pantry the other day it came across like, some beans that were, you know, dated for like, 2024 and my wife was like, they're fine, like they're beans, they're in a can. And I was like, I don't know, honey, we're pushing two years on these things.

Nick VinZant 37:21

I'm not pushing two years. I did actually, God, I did have similar thought. Is that I bought some I bought some corn, and I was looking at the corn, and I was like, How is this thing okay to eat by 2028 like, how is this food just in this can, and it's fine to eat for the next two and a half years like that just doesn't seem right to me.

John Shull 37:46

It probably it was good too. I've started to become more aware of what's in things, and it's actually quite scary if you start Googling some of the ingredients that we put into our bodies. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 38:01

But this is the thing, right? Like, I don't think that really people should Google anything, because the context is never there, right? Like, oh, that chemical sounds really bad, but you don't really know what amount it's in. You don't actually know what it does. I think it's become very, very difficult to actually figure out the truth now, and that's a huge problem.

John Shull 38:20

I mean, yes, it's very hard, yes.

Nick VinZant 38:25

The older you get, the more you realize the answer to everything is, it depends, and you can look something up immediately, but you have, don't you don't have the context to understand what that thing really means. Like a headache. Is that just a headache? Are you a little thirsty, or do you have brain cancer? Well, like, if you just look up the symptoms, like you could diagnose yourself with anything. There's no context in the world anymore. That's a big problem.

John Shull 38:50

Well, we have nobody steering the ship that you know helps anyways.

Nick VinZant 38:55

Yes, ah, maybe people need to know more about ABV snob.

John Shull 38:58

I'm listen. I'm more than happy to have a beer podcast with you, but anytime, exactly anytime I've tried to, you know, veer off. You just shut it down

Nick VinZant 39:07

because it's too snobby. It's too snobby. It's like, I just can't put that much time and attention to something that ultimately leaves my body within the next four hours.

John Shull 39:18

I get it, I mean, and when you say it like that, it's well, it doesn't leave your body. I mean, alcohol stays in your system for what? Three days. I have no idea. Yeah, anyways, neither do you. Let's, let's see how right I am. You ready? Mr. Impetus, over here. Impetus, how long does alcohol stay in your system?

Nick VinZant 39:42

Oh, my God, this is okay. You can't text anymore. Can you 72 this is another this is another sign that you are getting older. Once you start voice to texting everything, do you type your text messages, or do you voice to text them? I.

John Shull 40:00

Uh, it depends I I'm a good combination of both. If I will say if it's something longer, if the response to the or whatever I'm saying is longer, I always go voice to text.

Nick VinZant 40:13

I think it is a very obvious sign that someone is getting older when they start doing voice to text, because you also hold it in a stupid way. You don't hold it in a cool way. You end up holding it kind of like it's a plate that you don't know how to use, like, I don't want to break this thing, I'm not sure what I'm doing with it. And you end up like, having this weird thing. And we look now like our parents did, taking pictures with iPads. That is how our generation looks. Voice to texting is how our parents looked taking pictures with iPads.

John Shull 40:45

Are we ready for shout outs? Go ahead, Google. Old man, give shout outs. Kidding. Okay, all right, here, let's see. We'll start with Wendy Schneider, Mike Norman, Sophie Davidson, Kennard Hart, Eloise, Harding, Webster, bird, Catherine, Boyd, Noah Hansen, Alex Fletcher, and Xavier hummus.

Nick VinZant 41:12

Hummus, huh? Xavier, not Xavier. How do you spell it? X A, V, I, E, R, yeah, that's Xavier, not in Xavier.

Speaker 1 41:22

Xavier is Xavier.

Nick VinZant 41:25

What is this name? Jojo Han, Joe. Why? Let's add J, O, H, N, Joe, I like to

John Shull 41:32

add a little bit of classiness to my names.

Nick VinZant 41:36

Would you like to if you could change your name to something else? What would you be? Your name be,

John Shull 41:41

oh, I mean, I don't want it now, but I always, you know, I always like the more, like of our generation, like the progressive boys names, like, I always wish maybe I would have been a lance or a Travis. Oh, like Ezekiel, sure, just John is so boring. But like, I do feel, and I guess this is a question to you, is, do you think people, for the most part, look like their names? Yeah, yeah, right.

Nick VinZant 42:13

Like, yes, I would say ultimately, people do look like their names. And it makes sense. Like, oh yeah, that tracks Yeah.

John Shull 42:23

Like, most toms are gonna look like toms. Most Joanna's are gonna look like Joanna's. I just like, it's just the way it is.

Nick VinZant 42:33

Yeah, I always go back to the example of Derek. I can spot a Derek miles away. Like, that guy's name is Derek. You definitely do 100% chance that guy's name is Derek. You can see a lance, like a lance or a Derek. You can like, yeah, that guy's name is Lance. That guy's name is Derek. Absolutely you can spot a Steve. I don't know if, okay, I don't know if you can tell. I don't know if a person's I don't know if a person matches the name, but the type of person matches the name, like, there's kind of douchey names. There's like, okay, maybe I'm like, a wakeboarder or surfer names, right? They fit. I think you I don't think you can fit the name to the person. But I think you can fit the category of name to the person, like Steve Tom Bob, you can spot somebody that's going to be named one of those, yeah, like, would you looking at looking at me? Would you think that guy's probably like, a nick or a Noah, yeah, maybe a Logan, yeah.

John Shull 43:39

I any of those really? Maybe a Brett. Could also see you as a Brett,

Nick VinZant 43:45

yeah, a slightly a traditional but slightly different, yeah, for sure. I could see that like I could see you being a John, a bob. You could be a bob. You know, you could be Bob. God, actually, I can't,

Speaker 1 44:01

yeah, Bob Shaw, maybe a Robert or a Bob to Bob?

Nick VinZant 44:05

No, you'd be Bob. You'd be Bob. You Bob? Yeah, yeah. I know you try to class it up and you try to get into the Robert territory by talking about abv and snobby stuff like that, but you're just a bob, man. You're a bob.

John Shull 44:16

Well, let's talk about somebody else that's classy, shall we? Because I, I think we got the unintentional sound bite of the year last year already, with it only being February, if this was an AI, which I don't think it was, but RFK, Jr, you know, do you know where I'm going?

Nick VinZant 44:40

I don't know what this is, but I cannot imagine it is going to be smart that is like, Look, I'm not politics aside. Believe what you want to believe. This isn't that kind of a show, but you cannot listen to that person talk and think that's a smart man. If you could somehow take all of your political beliefs put aside and just listen to. That person talk about cars, you would not be like that. Sounds like a smart guy. He seems like someone who knows what's going on.

John Shull 45:08

So, so I don't, I don't know what he was on or where he was, but apparently he was talking about, you know, covid 19, you know, there's, it's a, there's more cases. It's kind of coming back, whatever, to a certain degree. And he says he's not worried about germs. And I quote, by the way, because he used to snort cocaine off of toilet seats. And I'm reading here he was on the podcast with Theo Vaughn when he said that. So anyways, that is, what is he? That's the healthy, listen, I love that he's real, right? I mean, it's cool. You're real in I guess. But, like,

Dr. Ned Block 45:49

I don't know that that might be my favorite quote

Speaker 1 45:53

in a long time.

Nick VinZant 45:55

I mean, but you are in a high up position in the United States government, right? Like, you should act as if you've been there before a little bit and realize that you saying something like that is not the best example for people. I understand the idea of, like, I'm going to be real, I'm going to be a man of the people, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But don't say that. Like, don't say that in a public place. But you can put off that same kind of vibe without talking about what you used to do and things like that. And like, yeah, that's that, to me, is one of the hallmarks of dumb people, is they can never put two and two firmly together, right? Like, just because you did that doesn't mean that germs aren't real. Like, well, I didn't get sick the time I ate rotten beef. Yeah, that doesn't mean you should do it all the time.

John Shull 46:44

I mean, once again, without going into politics, he's essentially the number one healthcare professional in the country, right? Like, other than the Surgeon General and Dr Oz, whatever he is now the Medicaid guy or whatever. But just to say, you know, and he did it in in perfect RFK Jr fashion, too. Because, you know, he has that, that weird impediment when he speaks from whatever he has, you know. So it was like, I used to snort cocaine off of toilet seats.

Nick VinZant 47:14

Like, I don't know how a person again, trying to put any politics aside about it, like, I don't know how anybody could hear that person talk and say that and then be like, You know what? You're right, yeah, dude, I listen. You're right. That didn't have any effect on you. I do

John Shull 47:28

think it's important, because I don't care if he's ever Democrat. I don't you know he's a Republican. I don't care if you're a liberal. You say something like that, you should be massacred for it. I'm sorry. You just should, yeah, you can't. Nothing will happen because of the way the world we live in. I don't know, I there's, there's one, there's like, 2% of me that's, like, That's fucking awesome. Like, I wish I could go on this podcast right now and be like, Nick I don't care about covid. It doesn't affect me because I do cocaine of toilet seats, right?

Nick VinZant 48:01

Like there's such it's such a false equivalency of things like doing cocaine off of toilet seats, doesn't it's not the same as a virus that goes around. Like it's not the same thing, right? Like it's people who can't distinguish climate from weather. Let's see what else. Well, good, good. Good for him. Look, if you want to put your eggs in that basket, that is your choice. But my eggs are not going in that basket. I'm not following that guy. Like, I mean, like, I'm gonna do what he said. Yeah, I'm probably is that is a man who has thought this through.

John Shull 48:33

I'm probably not either. I didn't want to bring this up, but I'm just baffled. Man like, and I think everyone listening to this, this whole Nancy Guthrie thing, like, I don't even know what to say now about it, like the Sheriff of, I think it's Pima or Pima County came out.

Nick VinZant 48:50

It's Pima County. I used to live in Tucson, said that. So I can offer some insight into local pronunciation. Just go ahead and pick it. Just go ahead

John Shull 48:59

that it could take years to find her. Like, where is she? Like, in the core of the Earth, like, for God's sakes,

Nick VinZant 49:09

I have always been fascinated by these types of cases, or anything where you have a missing person in the sense of, like, how could you find them and how could you not find them at the same time? I mean, if you go out in the middle of the desert there, and I used to live in that area, like there is nothing there except for coyotes and mountain lions and those kind of things. And so if somebody just dropped a body in the desert, like you ain't finding it. So I'm always equally impressed or equally fascinated by like, how could you not and how could you at the same time, it's also this. This story kind of annoys me. Do you want me get on my soapbox?

John Shull 49:44

Are you going to offend the Guthrie's?

Nick VinZant 49:49

Maybe not, if they are an objective people about this, right? Like, why is it the only time we care about somebody's a missing old light white lady? Oh, I mean, like, there's lots of missing people all over the place. We only care about this one. I was

John Shull 50:01

talking about that the other day. What was the case where there was the couple and and he killed her, dumped her body, the boyfriend.

Nick VinZant 50:10

I can't, I can't think of what the name is, Gabby, or something like that. I think it's

John Shull 50:15

searching for her. They found like, eight other bodies or something. But we never hear about, Oh, yeah.

Nick VinZant 50:21

Like, I'm just saying there is, like, you and I used to work in news, you still do, like, there is a certain amount. Like, okay, it's not quite that simple. Like, people pay attention to things with a story behind them. Some people don't necessarily, like, they just go missing. There isn't a big story there. I know that sounds kind of harsh and but that's just, that's kind of what people gravitate to, but we're also responsible for the own world we live in. Like, oh, people would care about those other missing people if other people paid attention to it and click the news, but they don't. So it's kind of like you create the world that you live in a little bit. But yeah, it's Yeah. I mean, people go missing all the time. I think that we could do a little

John Shull 51:01

bit well, let's see James Van Der Beek, apparently he had, I mean, hundreds of 1000s of dollars that he owed the IRS. So a month before he died, he bought a $4 million house, and then he died,

Nick VinZant 51:16

and then hit the public up for a million dollar GoFundMe, or however, many millions in GoFundMe.

John Shull 51:20

Is that brilliant or not brilliant? I don't know.

Nick VinZant 51:27

I don't think that it's brilliant because, God, to go back onto this,

John Shull 51:30

by the way, you sound like the old man. FYI, just, I'm just saying,

Nick VinZant 51:35

oh, first of all, I'm not saying that. Words like ABV, I'm over here

Speaker 1 51:38

dropping that means I'm hip. That means I'm young.

Nick VinZant 51:41

No, you're not. That means you're pretentious. Oh, well, you and the insufferables group that hangs out together, like, Hey guys, let's get the insufferables together and be pretentious. They're actually good. What do you think about the hops in this one? Oh, I don't know. It's not German hops.

John Shull 51:57

Anyways, go back on your soapbox. There you.

Nick VinZant 52:01

I forgot it already because I got angry about what you're becoming in your old age. Well, hey, sitting around talking about ABV, can I hand you a 12 point A 12% ABV beer, and you'd be like, Oh, that's 12% did you compare it to an 11.5 are you that level of snob?

John Shull 52:16

That's a pretty hard comparison. I don't know if I could do that 10 to 12? No, probably like 12 to seven, six, a lot, a lot of it's in the flavor, like the body of the beer. Oh, my God. All right, let's see. Last thing I have, what was I gonna talk it doesn't matter. I'm actually gonna cut you off for once. I'll go for it. Robert Duvall, huh? Rip Robert Duvall passed away this week or this weekend.

Nick VinZant 52:45

Get him and Harvey Keitel confused. Okay, I get the two of them confused. There's always two actors that seem exactly alike. It's like we couldn't get Kurt Russell, we'll get Patrick Swayze. It's the same person.

John Shull 52:59

You take that back, they're not even close to being the same person.

Nick VinZant 53:04

They could play each other's parts if you could, like, well, just put Kurt Russell in there. Nobody's gonna know the difference. Patrick, there's always two actors that are interchangeable. And like, well, if you can't get that guy, you can get this wrong. It's like the Chris Evans and Chris Pine, the guy who was in Star Trek in Captain America. Like, well, we couldn't get Chris Evans, we'll just get the other guy. Nobody. Won't even know that's

John Shull 53:24

saying that you're not correct on some but Patrick Swayze and Kurt Russell, no, not they. There's no way.

Nick VinZant 53:30

I don't even know which one. You asked me which one was in which movie, and I couldn't, probably couldn't even tell. Can you name me Kurt Russell was snake poliskin, right? Or is that Patrick Swayze? I don't even know which one was in Road House. Don't know it was either Kurt Russell or Patrick sway. He's one of the two.

John Shull 53:45

Can you name me any Robert Duvall movies? I hope you can name me at least two. Well, the Godfather, that's the easy one, I guess, for basic people,

Nick VinZant 53:58

I think he was in Apocalypse Now, yes, there you go. I can't think of any what, the what, but I the movie that I would say, has the worst movie scene in cinema history gone in 60 seconds? The worst movie scene in cinema history is when Nicholas Cage puts on that jacket. Oh, that is the worst movie scene that I have ever seen in my life.

John Shull 54:22

I mean, that's not even close to being that's, I don't think there's a top 50

Nick VinZant 54:26

I felt embarrassed. I felt embarrassed seeing that. That was the cringiest thing that I've ever seen from a guy who has made a living off of doing cringiest thing he does like crap, and then comes back and does amazing, and then does crap, and then does amazing.

John Shull 54:42

So he's, I was, I wanted to look he's in something that's coming up where I'm like, What the hell are you doing? Like, you are an A list actor. Why are you doing this?

Nick VinZant 54:51

Like, well, he's just, he likes to do it, man. He lives for the crap, and he'll take anything they put on his life. He must owe somebody some money. Oh, that's. What my rant was going to be about. I didn't, I do not about James Van Der Beek. James Van Der Beek thing, right? Like, I don't think that we should ever confuse being amoral with being smart. It's not really smart to just manipulate people and lie about everything. It just takes no moral character, sure. Like, I don't like when those two things get confused. Like, oh, he's smart about it. No, it's just not having any morals or decency. I'm not saying that. That's what James Vanderbeek said. I'm just saying that in relation to other things, do you feel better?

John Shull 55:33

I do. Do you want to go on to something that'll make us happy now? All right, yes, do it? What is it a top five?

Nick VinZant 55:42

Oh, right, right, right. So our top five is top five drink flavors. We're talking about. Like, I don't know what we're talking about. Let's just see where this goes. I know what mine are. I love flavored drinks. Oh, give me a flavored drink.

John Shull 55:58

So you're I already know you're gonna hate my list, but

Nick VinZant 56:02

I'm noxious and pretentious.

John Shull 56:05

No, it's just, it's pretty basic, and you're gonna ask questions. I'm not gonna have answers to those questions. For instance, my number five on my top flavor list is simply just red pop.

Nick VinZant 56:18

I like it's not a flavor, well, Red Pop, it's a flavor. But what's the flavor? The flavor is just flavored.

John Shull 56:29

Red Pop, yeah, it's just red. It's just, I don't know. It's just a it's like a mix of a bunch of stuff,

Nick VinZant 56:36

okay, but this, we're not talking about like Gatorade or Powerade, where you refer to the colors by like you. This isn't Gatorade or Powerade, where you refer to it by the color.

John Shull 56:46

Fine. Then, like, here, I just looked it up. It's okay. Just, just to make it easy, my number five flavor is strawberry.

Nick VinZant 56:55

Oh, okay, yeah, there. Why couldn't you just say that? Why'd you just say red pop? Because it could be, but it's not red pop. It's not the flavor is not red. It's like, cherry or strawberry or watermelon or fruit punch. It's not just red. This isn't Gatorade or Powerade. That only counts for those two. It's like, I'll get the blue

John Shull 57:14

one. Strawberry is my number five.

Nick VinZant 57:17

Thank you. My number five is mango. It's really hard to go wrong with some kind of exotic fruits and drinks. Yeah, mangoes. One of them is, mango is good.

Speaker 1 57:28

No, it's just no. Mangoes terrible.

Nick VinZant 57:31

It's objectively wrong. No, it's not. It's delicious.

Speaker 1 57:34

Mangoes, amazing. Say that, and my number four is coconut.

Nick VinZant 57:37

So, oh, coconut, I find to be disgusting. But ironically, my number four is cucumber. There's one flavor of like, Gatorade or Powerade that has cucumber in it, and it's really good. It's the best one. It's refreshing.

John Shull 57:55

It's good. It is. I mean, I'm so my number three, I put on there because it's refreshing and it's lemon, lime.

Nick VinZant 58:04

Oh, I don't find either one of those flavors to be refreshing. Find them to be too harsh and distasteful.

John Shull 58:11

I like the tartness and I like the sweetness. It's a good mixture or separate. They're good separate too.

Nick VinZant 58:16

Mine, my number three is pineapple. I would put pineapple higher, higher, but it's hard to find. Not everybody makes a pineapple. I remember the first time I had pineapple juice. Still remember it. It's incredible.

John Shull 58:29

I mean, it's good, but, like, pineapple is kind of like mango to me. Like I can only have so much of it. It's good in small doses, but like to drink it a lot. I just, I can't do it.

Nick VinZant 58:41

I could agree with that. If someone else said,

John Shull 58:44

since you said it, it doesn't matter, because I say, is that what you're saying exactly. So my number two is, like, Blueberry, raspberry.

Nick VinZant 58:55

Oh, I don't like that. I generally don't like a color mixed with a flavor, okay? Black Cherry, blue raspberry, black cherries. I mean, any of those, I don't delicious. Yeah, I don't like mixing colors with fruits. It's not a good flavor combination for me. Like, I don't know, you know that my number two is strawberry. Okay? Strawberry is great. I'd take a strawberry. I'd much rather have a strawberry than a cherry.

John Shull 59:23

I really hope our number one isn't the same

Nick VinZant 59:27

it might be. I mean, it is the ultimate flavor of drink.

John Shull 59:30

Okay, on the count of three, let's say them together. 1122, cherry. Oh, no, fruit. Oh shit, my Google picked up. Yeah, cherry man, why did you Google pick that up? Because I was trying to, were you looking? I was trying to Google something and looking what color was in blue Gatorade. And it was Blueberry, raspberry.

Nick VinZant 1:00:01

Oh, it is, yeah, I don't like mixing colors and flavors. Fruit Punch is the ultimate. I have no idea what is all constitutes fruit punch, but it's amazing. It's delicious, good.

John Shull 1:00:14

I mean, like, or like, I'm surprised neither of us had orange juice on there. Like, orange,

Nick VinZant 1:00:19

oh no, I would actually go strongly against both orange and grape. Orange grape and lime. Get that out of here. I don't like those flavors. White Grape. White Grape might be the only exception to my color fruit.

John Shull 1:00:33

So you know how you call me pretentious. This is gonna sound even more pretentious, okay? Because I don't I when I drink water. I if I'm able, I'll put like a splash of lime or lemon juice in it.

Nick VinZant 1:00:49

I don't really think I drink just plain water at all.

John Shull 1:00:52

Oh, all right, so Okay, so maybe I don't sound that pretentious,

Nick VinZant 1:00:56

except at night, like at night, I'm gonna have a glass of water by the bed stand or night stand, or whatever they call it. Now, what's going on at your house? I hear all this beeping

John Shull 1:01:08

that might have been the dryer. I'm not sure I didn't hear it, but I have my check the app. No, still mad? You should be mad. You want to talk about once again, you have proven to be the old man in this episode. No technology.

Nick VinZant 1:01:27

Adapt to technology I'm not going to use. Spend my time looking at the app when I could just walk down the stairs.

John Shull 1:01:35

Yeah, but it's not. You're still gonna have to walk down regardless This is being more efficient.

Nick VinZant 1:01:41

Or you could just be like, Hey, I started this load of laundry at 10 o'clock. It says 48 minutes on the washer. I'll come back at like, 11.

John Shull 1:01:48

I mean, yeah, maybe ain't no one got time for that.

Nick VinZant 1:01:52

God, I am going to go old man this episode. I'm really concerned about the future. I think that we're going to just become we're just going to be brainless. We're gonna lose our abilities to like, move we're just gonna it's gonna be like, Wally, we're gonna be on the axiom. I'm really, actually wondering what's gonna happen with us. Because if you don't lose use it, you lose it, man,

John Shull 1:02:11

I told you today that this podcast is older than both my children. That's how old we are.

Nick VinZant 1:02:16

Well, let's, do you have anything in your honor?

John Shull 1:02:22

I've only missed one. Man, I've only missed one episode, and it was the week my first

Nick VinZant 1:02:26

No, I think you missed two. I think it was two. Is it two?

John Shull 1:02:31

I think it's two. Is it when I had covid and was like, dead? No. Well, anyways, I only remember missing one, but I'm sure you're right, because I'm getting old. No, I mean, I I have some I don't mention, but nothing that I really want to talk about anymore.

Nick VinZant 1:02:52

Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out and let us know what you think is the best fruity drink. Not talking about juices, but fruit drink flavor, fruit punch. There's a reason everybody makes fruit punch. That's all I'm saying. You.



Olympic Ski Jumper Kevin Bickner

In Ski Jumping every little detail matters. And no American has flown farther than 3x Olympian Kevin Bickner. We talk what really happens on a Ski Jump, the secret to flying farther and Ski Jumping scandals that have rocked the sport.

Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and it’s airports vs. shopping malls as we countdown the Top 5 Best Places for People Watching.

00:00: Introducing Olympian Kevin Bickner

01:14: How Scary is Ski Jumping

03:40: How Ski Jumpers Fly Farther

05:33: What Makes Someone Good at Ski Jumping

07:41: Can You Back Off a Ski Jump

08:14: Ski Jumping Scandals

12:49: Ski Jumping on a Snowboard

14:47: Where Ski Jumping is the Most Popular

16:07: Ski Jumping and Intrusive Thoughts

19:47: Pointless

44:29: Candle of the Month

51:21: Best Places for People Watching

Kevin Bickner Instagram

Contact the Show

Interview with Olympic Ski Jumper Kevin Bickner

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode ski jumping and people watching

Kevin Bickner 0:21

every little movement and position makes a big difference on the hill. With your distance. You go to some of these events in Europe, and, yeah, you'll have stadiums with 10s of 1000s of people watching these events, millions of views every weekend on TV. It's a big deal, and it's not like that back home, and I remember being in the air. I was probably in the air for like five seconds at this point, and I thought, like, damn, this is enough time to read a book.

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest. This is Olympic ski jumper, Kevin bickner, so is ski jumping as intense, slash scary as it looks?

Kevin Bickner 1:14

I would say that. Yeah, probably is that intense? If you go and check it out in person, it's going to be, I think, even more extreme if you see it up close and what you see on TV, for example, one of my friends who watched it live for the first time said, like, Oh my God, I didn't realize how fast you guys were going. Like, you see the speed on TV, like they'll display it, but it doesn't register until you're standing in front of it and watching someone fly

Nick VinZant 1:43

by you. When we talk about ski jumping, you go down the hill and you jump, but as you lead up to it, as you're in the air, as you land, like, what are you really trying to do?

Kevin Bickner 1:55

The Sport overall, extremely technical. I don't know if people know that or not, but like, every little movement and position makes a big difference on the hill with your distance, so you want to set the position nice and low, really balanced over your feet, hopefully maintaining that position. And then when you get to the end of the takeoff and it's time to jump, you want to push down against the ground as hard as you can with only your legs. You don't want to be moving your upper body or swinging your arms around, or all these unnecessary movements you it's not an easy thing to do, but it's a very simple thing to do, and that's how you leave the take off. And if you do it correctly, your legs extend, your body flattens out, and then you get in the air, and you will be flat over your skis, in that nice aerodynamic position where you're keeping speed you're creating surface area so that you can generate lift underneath you, and that will hopefully carry you as far down the hill as you

Nick VinZant 3:12

can get. Is the lip of the jump? Is that flat? Does it kind of launch you a little

Kevin Bickner 3:17

bit or like, no, it's actually angled down. It's angled down. Yeah, yeah, it's angled down. So if it looks like it's launching us, that's just us doing our job, right? But it's not. Every ski jump is identical, but you're going to have around a an 11 degree angle downward.

Nick VinZant 3:40

So then, once you get in the air, are you just trying to Why do you do the position that you do? Like, what's the point of doing that?

Kevin Bickner 3:47

To get that gliding effect, you want to create as much surface area as possible. Think of like those wingsuit guys, you know, they'll, they'll pull out their arms and legs and have that material there. And the more surface area you have the more lift that's going to generate. So we put our skis into a V shape because that maximizes the surface area around our body. And you know, we're lying flat with our hands by our side, basically just trying to be a sail and catch the air, which is why a headwind, even though you might think that that's going against your speed, a headwind is going to be more pressure underneath your skis and your body, and that's going to, in turn, help you create that lift.

Nick VinZant 4:34

Is there anything kind of special about the landing? Are you like no man, at this point, you're just

Kevin Bickner 4:38

landing it. I don't even it's hard to describe. You just kind of pull your feet together, and then suddenly you're upright. Like it's not something you really have to put a whole lot of effort in. But when you are competing, style is a part of the sport, and so if you want maximum style points, you have to land in what's called a 10. Telemark landing that's one foot in front of the other. So that's something you have to consciously think about when you land. Is, how do I make this landing as good looking as possible, so that the judges will like it?

Nick VinZant 5:13

Let's just say, out of 1010, attempts, like, how many of those would you say? Oh, I got that exactly right. One?

Kevin Bickner 5:22

Well, it depends how you're jumping, but you know to have a absolutely perfect ski jump is not easy to do.

Nick VinZant 5:33

I guess. What about you makes you good at it? Are you just exceptionally physically gifted? Are you really good technically? Like, why are you good at

Kevin Bickner 5:43

so, I mean, early on, a lot of it is, like, how ballsy you are. Like, obviously, some timid little kid is not gonna succeed in the sport. That's, you know, hooking yourself off of humongous jumps. So that's like, a very important thing early on. And then as you get to, like, the 40 meter, the 70 meter, and it starts to become more technical. Then, yeah, your understanding of the sport and, like, being able to learn technique and stuff, that starts to become more important, and then by the time you are like a teenager, like 1516 then body type comes into play too. So it is a sport where weight makes a huge difference. So you do need to be thin. That's kind of a requirement. They're both tall guys and short guys that do really well and win world of cups, that get Olympic medals. The common thing among them all is that they're really thin and that they're really strong.

Nick VinZant 6:56

How condition dependent is it in the sense that, okay, you can be just as good as somebody else, but for whatever reason, when they're jumping, they just got the right wind.

Kevin Bickner 7:06

Wind is huge. Wind is very big. It can make all the difference. And to kind of even that out and make it more fair, they start putting wind readers on the side of the hill, and they have this formula to calculate a certain amount of points that you get added or deducted to your jump based on the direction of the wind and the strength of the wind. So it evens it out a bit more, which is nice. It's not perfect. You know, even though you get points taken away for headwind, you still want headwind, because it's still better to have that

Nick VinZant 7:41

this kind of gets into some of our listener submitted questions. So are you ready for some listener submitted questions? Yeah, of course. Can you back off a ski jump? Like, once you start going down, can you just say no, no, no, no, no, no,

Kevin Bickner 7:56

once you get off that bar, you're in it. So you better give it hell or otherwise. Like, if, here's the thing, if you're, if you are a pussy at the end of the jump, it's going to be dangerous. It's going to be bad. You You might crash, you might have a sketchy jump, like you might as well just go for it.

Nick VinZant 8:14

What's with all the cheating scandals? All of a sudden, I

Kevin Bickner 8:18

think there's, there's been kind of a history of people in the sport bending the rules and trying to, like, see how much they can get away with. And if there's not been someone there to enforce it, then they just kind of keep pushing it, and there's kind of been this unfair bias that, like the bigger and better countries get away with more. And I think it got to a point where a lot of the different competitors and countries, especially like the smaller countries, got fed up with it and started making, like, a bigger and bigger deal about it. And they have just recently gotten stricter about they. They finally started, like, enforcing the rules stricter. And you know, then, when you do that, you start finding stuff. It definitely did some damage that that part sucks, but they forced the sport to make some big changes, and I think that this year, everybody is being treated fairly and equally across all teams. And you know, no one is above the law. It seems like anymore so

Nick VinZant 9:38

and for people who aren't familiar with the ski jumping scandals that we're talking about, some coaches and athletes were suspended after it was found that they were altering the crotch area of their suits, and now there's talk that some athletes were also injecting things into their private areas to make that Re. Bigger. So why would that even help to inject something in that area?

Kevin Bickner 10:07

So I'm sure the people are thinking that, Oh, they're injecting this before they go up and jump. That's not what it would be. So a big thing in ski jumping is our suits. Because you know, the bigger suit, the more surface area you have, it can make a big difference in how far you go. So we have certain measurements that we get at the beginning of each season that are these hard measurements that we have to use when we make our suits. Some of these hard measurements, include your height, your arm length, and then your crotch length. So what they will do, they used to, they used to have this little like mechanism that would come up and like measure where your crotch was, and then that would be like your crotch length. But there were people trying to manipulate that, you know, you stuff stuff in your underwear, and try to get, like a lower crotch measurement. Therefore, you could have a lower crotch on your suit and have more material there, and it, it makes a huge difference in flying. So what they have since moved to is a body scan, and you do it in your underwear, and they they've actually gone as far as to have a doctor there to make sure that you have no prosthetics on or nothing like glued to you to try and get, like, a lower measurement. So the whole conspiracy is that people have been like injecting things into them so that it artificially, for a little bit, makes their crotch lower, so that when they would get this scan, their measurement that is good for the entire season would be lower than what it really is that they could have a bigger suit all season.

Nick VinZant 12:14

I get like the importance and that this is people's lives and their careers. But there's also kind of a hilariousness to it. Like, oh, absolutely right. It's, I mean, was this a known thing before this kind of came out?

Kevin Bickner 12:29

When I heard about it, I I laughed. Like, that's such an outrageous thing to do. That's really like taking it to the extreme. And I can't imagine it would make that much of a difference, like maybe you get an extra centimeter or two, which, you know is nice to have, but it's not making or breaking your season.

Nick VinZant 12:49

Could you do this with a snowboard?

Kevin Bickner 12:53

I don't think you could. I mean, you could. So you could find someone to go off a ski jump, probably, but they wouldn't go very far.

Nick VinZant 13:04

Is it just not built for that or like this? Because I snowboard. I mean, I'm not. I snowboard the greens. Let me, let me be, let me be more clear about that, right? Like and if it's an easy blue, maybe I'll do it, but you just couldn't do it. Because, yeah, why couldn't you do it, it's just not set up that way, or they're just the funding. Fundamentally, about the snowboard wouldn't let you,

Kevin Bickner 13:28

I think both. I'll go through it all. Why? I think it couldn't work technically. Yes, you could. You could get off and go down a steep hill and then jump as hard as you could on snowboard. You'll probably go 20 meters, which you know, could be cool if you're doing it. I don't know if it'd be exciting to watch, but the track is made for skis. But let's, let's pretend that's not there, right?

Nick VinZant 13:55

Let's pretend it's set up so that you can do it, right? Yes.

Kevin Bickner 13:58

So like you said, you snowboard the blues and greens. How often do you catch an edge? If I was better, probably all the time. The way that you jump, you'd have to almost jump sideways. You're not getting a lot of force. It's not a lot of like efficient energy that you're taking with you. It's it's a lot of wasted energy, so you're not getting the same kind of lift off the end of that takeoff. And then your feet are strapped in, and you have to, I would assume you're just leaning sideways, so then you're not really creating a whole lot of surface area. And then your feet are also playing on the board with our jumping skis, our our boots lift up a little bit from the ski

Nick VinZant 14:47

countries where this is the biggest like, oh man, those Norwegians, they love ski jumping.

Kevin Bickner 14:55

Poland probably has the most dedicated fan base. They love ski jumping. Die hard fans.

Nick VinZant 15:05

Man, I'm Polish, and that maybe explains some of why. It's just in our blood. It's just in our blood we love ski jumping. Man, I would put

Kevin Bickner 15:15

Slovenia up there too. It's almost like their national sport.

Nick VinZant 15:19

Is there any particular reason? Are they just, that's just what they like?

Kevin Bickner 15:24

Slovenia, I would say that soccer is definitely not bigger. Ski jumping is one of the biggest sports there. It's a very small country. It's in the mountains, like the edge of the Alps, and they just have, like, a big history of ski jumping in that country, the biggest ski jump in the world is there, and they have so many kids that try it. They have, like, the most ski jumps per capita in the world. So I think it's just something that everyone knows about. It's just like ingrained in the culture.

Nick VinZant 16:07

Oh, let's do I got two. I got one serious one and one funnier one. Okay, most intrusive thought you've had while sailing through the air.

Kevin Bickner 16:17

I remember when I was younger and I was watching ski flying, a ski flying video with my dad. And do you know what ski flying is?

Nick VinZant 16:27

I think so, right? Like it's got a parachute, like they go off. Maybe I have

Kevin Bickner 16:33

no no ski flying is ski jumping, but basically on jumps that are twice the size of the Olympic jumps, super extreme, like you've gone like massive, massive jumps, yeah, so you know Olympic jump is like 120 meter. These ski flying jumps are 200 meters. So I, I was, when I was a little kid, I was watching, like, one of these ski flying videos with my dad. We were watching, like, the world record and counting out that it was 10 seconds of air time. And he was like, holy shit. Like, that's enough time to read a book. So I remember, it wasn't my first time ski flying, but it was, you know, it was a while ago, like earlier days of when I started ski flying. And I remember being in the air. I was probably in the air for like, five seconds at this point. And I thought, like, damn, this is enough time to read a book.

Nick VinZant 17:36

Because, you know how people are right? Like, any chance your brain gets for some downtime, be like, I think the lights on. What do you think is the future?

Kevin Bickner 17:47

If we do well, the better we do as the US team. I think the more notoriety that the sport gets in America, because it's not super well known in America. You know, you go some of these events in Europe, and, yeah, you'll have stadiums with 10s of 1000s of people watching these events, millions of views every weekend on TV. It's a big deal, and it's not like that back home. And, you know, I know, I understand it never will be. It won't be like going to an NFL game, but it could be a thing people at least know about right now. I think ski jumping is almost viewed as like a circus act. Like once every four years, it's like, oh yeah, those guys, that's crazy, and then they forget about it. But, you know, this is like a sport that we do every year. There's, like, a big professional circuit that goes on, and I think it's a really cool thing. And I would love if more people had some exposure to that and got to know it better. And, you know, maybe it could be something that they'd be able to follow if they got into it. So I think that would be really cool. I think one of the ways of getting there is for our guys to get better results. And you know, we've definitely been making strides in that. I promise you, the team going to Milan is stronger than the team that went to Beijing. We as a country have gotten better at this sport in last four years. So, you know, I want to be a good ambassador to the sport. I want to help it grow. I want to help it get more recognized. I think that would be really cool.

Nick VinZant 19:27

I want to thank Kevin so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description, and if you want to see more of this interview, the YouTube version is now live. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. Imagine you are back in prehistoric days and you look up at the moon. How far away would you think it is like, if you knew absolutely nothing about space or science and you just looked up at the moon? How far away would you think it was?

John Shull 20:11

Don't know. I mean, I would probably look at it and just go, man, that's far away. I don't know if you if it's prehistoric times, you don't know measurement. So, right,

Nick VinZant 20:20

but that's what I'm asking. Like, do you think that our ancient ancestors thought the moon was really far away, or do you think it was pretty close?

John Shull 20:28

They probably thought it was pretty close, because it is kind of big at some points. And you think it's not that far away, till you realize it's millions of miles away.

Nick VinZant 20:38

It's, I think, actually, like 250 to 300,000 some odd miles away. 247, if you want to Google, that might be my first guess. But I would honestly think, like, if I was a caveman, I would honestly think the moon was like five miles away. I would have no idea that thing was hundreds of 1000s of miles away. I'd be like, That thing's pretty close.

John Shull 21:00

I can't imagine living in a world where I didn't have Wikipedia or Google, like, the ability to search something and see, you know, the history behind it. Like, can you imagine being in prehistoric times and seeing the moon, not knowing what it was, not knowing if it was gonna you know, not knowing anything about it, just knowing that it was there and like, that's all for your entire life, all you're gonna know is what it is, physically, you'll never know anything about it.

Nick VinZant 21:29

Well, I think that's why we made up stories. But I would be like, if I saw like an eclipse or a volcano erupting or any sort of natural phenomenon, I would be terrified. You have no idea what that thing was.

John Shull 21:42

Well, yeah, that's, I mean, you kind of said right there. That's why stories were made. That's why women were literally burned at the stake in Salem, and they were named witches just because, you know, they wanted to experiment with garlic and vinegar.

Nick VinZant 21:57

Like, sorry here, but this is where the history major in me, comes out that was not really what the Salem Witch Trials were about. The Salem Witch Trials were mainly about seizing property from widowed people. Great was not really about witches. It was really much more about like an ability to seize property from women who had lost their husbands. See, even worse, being a witch. They accused him being a witch, and they took the property. If you would pay attention to this podcast, you would know that we had a guest on who's a historian of the occult, and talked all about

Speaker 1 22:24

that she was like eight years ago. No,

Nick VinZant 22:27

I think it was like a year ago. It's probably this year, honestly, it was yesterday.

Speaker 1 22:32

You know which tequila I drank last week? All right, oh

Nick VinZant 22:35

god, I tequila is not something that I would ever sip. I always want to sip tequila, but I just can't get into it. It's just too many memories.

John Shull 22:46

I found it. I found one that is perfect sipping. Anyways, I will say this. I think back, if I lived in prehistoric times, I would be more afraid of like the creatures, you know what I mean, like the animals, because you don't know anything about them, like I would see a squirrel and be like, Oh, damn, that thing is going to come it me in my sleep.

Nick VinZant 23:06

I think you would be used to the animals that are around you. I mean, you kind of grew up around them. Like I wouldn't be freaked out about that. I would be terrified if, like a Eclipse or a volcano, though I would just have no idea what was going on. Just imagine being back there having no idea what was happening whatsoever.

John Shull 23:23

I mean, that's isn't that the greatest fear of most people is not knowing what's happening.

Nick VinZant 23:31

Yeah, and ironically, none of us really know what's going on. Nobody really has any idea what they're doing,

John Shull 23:37

what you and I, you're you're the other side of 40. I'm just hitting 40, and I'm realizing that most people that are successful have no idea what they're doing,

Nick VinZant 23:46

not a clue, not a clue. I have a huge pet peeve of anybody who tries to pretend like they know what they're doing. Like, what's the secret to your success? If you hear anybody say that, if you ever hear, in my opinion, if you ever hear somebody talking about the secret to their success, and the first thing that they say isn't just blind luck, they have no idea what they're talking about. Like, how'd you get in this position? Well, I bet if you actually tracked it back, it comes back to blind luck.

John Shull 24:16

I mean, everything's an advertisement, right? Every every one of those people you know that you see on social media that are, you know, do this workout? Do Are you drinking a Sunkist?

Nick VinZant 24:27

No, it's a Fanta. Oh, look at you. Sunkist actually has caffeine in it. Just really surprised me. For some reason, I was like, why was Sunkist have caffeine in it? Because they want to addict us to caffeine. Yeah, I already am, but that's not the point. Do you want to know what the audience poll was sure? So I polled the audience about this, and I don't think that people really understood the question or really thought about this. So 10 miles or less, 0% 100 miles or less, 8% 1000 miles or less. 0% and 92% of people said they thought that the moon would be more than 1000 miles. I don't think that you would have any concept of how far away the moon was at that if you were back in prehistoric times. I also question you'd be like, it's like, it's just right across the hill man.

John Shull 25:17

I also question if we actually have correctly measured space. I always wonder that,

Nick VinZant 25:24

Oh, I'm sure we haven't completely correctly measured the entire universe, but I think we know how far away the moon is. We got that down. I mean, we sent like, multiple people there. We know where it is. We know how to find it. I guess

John Shull 25:36

I'm not necessarily talking about, I'm talking about, like, anything past the moon. You know what? I mean, like other planets and gal like, we're never gonna know. And it's kind of really disappointing, if you think about it.

Nick VinZant 25:46

I mean, it's just math. I think that we know how far away it is. I mean, do we know that it to the 10th of a mile? Probably not, but I think we have a pretty good general idea of where it is. Oh, I

John Shull 25:58

want to let you know that I got into a strange conversation with somebody the other day, okay? And they were asking me pot podcast tips. And I said, Listen, I'm the wrong person to ask about that. But then I got brought up about how I could outrun a bull from a stand, you know, in a 40 yard death. And this person said they would bet their 401, K on it, that I could not do it.

Nick VinZant 26:23

Yeah, nobody thinks that you can outrun a bison. Nobody. You're the only person in the whole world who thinks that this is possible. It makes no sense, like everyone else, but you knows that this is like, it's not even a question. I would take out on a mortgage on another house. I would bet all the money that I could possibly get my hands on that you wouldn't get any clothes, everything that I possibly had, and I would encourage everyone that I knew to take out mortgages and bet all the money they could possibly have on you losing the race, the odds of you winning would be a billion to zero. No one would bet on you. He's the only person in the world who thinks you can

Speaker 1 26:56

do this. Well, this person said something that I hadn't thought about,

Nick VinZant 27:00

and I'm starting, did they reality? Was it bad?

John Shull 27:03

They said that? Because apparently they worked on a farm that a bull or a bison, whatever, whatever you want to say, well, they're two completely different animals. What would happen with the bison is that it would take one step and it would literally jump and catch me and then just beat me like it would do that in a second. Yeah, it wouldn't be anything. It wouldn't be anywhere whatsoever. We're talking about 678, seconds. No way. We're talking

Nick VinZant 27:34

about half a second. You have no chance. I want to, I just don't know why. You won't accept reality about this.

John Shull 27:40

This needs to be our last episode. I wanted, I wanted, I want to live stream me racing a bison.

Nick VinZant 27:47

Oh, I hope we can do that, and I hope that we can bet on it. And then you'll realize how much absolutely no one thinks that you could beat a wild animal

John Shull 27:55

at anything. Somebody would bet. Somebody out there believes in me.

Nick VinZant 27:58

No No one does. No one, no one.

John Shull 28:02

Somebody needs to start a GoFundMe or something, and let's get let's get it involved so I can race a bison.

Nick VinZant 28:09

No one is going to do that. No one is going to do that because it's pointless, right? Do you think you can outrun a Ferrari?

John Shull 28:16

Wait, is it profoundly

Nick VinZant 28:18

pointless? I'm not doing this. I'm not, I'm not doing this.

John Shull 28:21

How's the weather in Seattle? How's your basement? It looks nice. Alright, let's give some shout outs while Nick tries to recover, we'll go here. Janice Anderson, Matt, we hear a lot of

Nick VinZant 28:41

Janice's. That's

Speaker 1 28:43

my mother's name. Oh, actually, so I've heard it a lot.

Nick VinZant 28:48

It's not what I call her.

John Shull 28:50

I do it, I do I do it. Man. Eileen Shepherd, Brandy. Lee Micah, Parcells, Kyle, Tuscany, Noah, fam Stacy McCoy, Leslie Barton in Georgia, Georgina,

Nick VinZant 29:07

interesting, interesting names. Okay, okay, okay,

John Shull 29:12

let's see. You know what? You know, what you know, what episode

Nick VinZant 29:15

it is. I'm not doing. It's not time yet,

John Shull 29:17

I know. So let's see. I actually came across something the other day that I thought was interesting, and I wouldn't even try this, and that's that's kind of crazy. So breakside brewery in Portland, Oregon has come out with a limited edition beer that apparently has what they say is safe to drink, bear poop in it. Why?

Nick VinZant 29:45

Why would I want that? Does it add flavor? Does Bear poop have some unique sort of flavor that everybody wants? Why would you want to have bear poop in it? Like, what's the point of that, besides just getting some media attention because you put bear poop in there?

John Shull 29:59

I mean, Rick. Regardless of, if you just want media attention, it grabbed my eye. I mean,

Nick VinZant 30:04

but are you gonna drink it?

John Shull 30:07

I mean, if there was a, I mean, it's so they can't release something that's gonna harm you, right? So they've done something to the poop, but then, like, you break the poop down, and it's not poop. So I don't know, I don't know how they're I haven't really found an article that explains the process of how they made the poop safe. So maybe

Nick VinZant 30:25

they just, I don't know, but why would you how do you get your hands on it? Where do they get the bear poop? That's, that's what I'm really wondering is, like, how do you get your hands on enough bear poop to mix it into beer, to brew enough of this stuff, like you just go to the zoo. You go collect it in the wild. Is there a market for bear poop that you can just, like, go and buy it, like, get it shipped to you on Amazon?

John Shull 30:50

There may be, there may be a niche market for this. I'm finding, I don't know.

Nick VinZant 30:55

Can you just buy rare animal poop? You can, you just, you can just buy animal poop. Let's see, okay, Moose poop. Moose poop for sale. Yes, yeah, you can buy moose poop, genuine moose poop, specimen, $8.50 on Etsy. God, people will sell and buy anything. They will buy anything. You never know what somebody's going to want. Okay, never does it, do you? Did you read any of the reviews? Is it supposedly good?

John Shull 31:36

There were, there wasn't any reviews yet, and there wasn't any on this beer, this beer app I have either so, oh,

Nick VinZant 31:44

okay, how many apps do you have on your phone right now? Do you have more than 30 apps? Who?

John Shull 31:50

That's probably pretty close. Um, no, I say no. I actually try to keep a very clean phone I have. So, oh, my god, are you still rocking the Blackberry?

Nick VinZant 32:04

No, but I have a phone from 2019 that currently has tape on it, and the dog chewed it a little bit, but it still works. It still does what a phone is supposed to do, so I'm not going to get rid of it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

John Shull 32:15

Alright, let's see here. I mean, it is Super Bowl week. I don't care about either of the teams, but you should.

Nick VinZant 32:24

But, I mean, I'm interested, like, I live in Seattle. Seattle is pretty excited about it. I would say that if Sunday comes around and Seattle doesn't win, I'll be like, Oh, okay.

John Shull 32:37

I do think the Super Bowl has become more of a spectacle than an actual football game.

Nick VinZant 32:44

Oh yeah. I mean, it's just entertainment. I don't really, I've never really understood people who kind of like got it's never been my thing to be like my team lost. Okay? I mean, does it really affect you in any way? I mean, unless you got money on it?

John Shull 33:02

Well, the average ticket as of this recording is $8,000 so

Nick VinZant 33:08

that's I'd have a hard time justifying that, even if I had a real lot of money. I don't think I could justify that. I don't think even if I was a billionaire, I could go, Well, I mean, like, yeah, $1,000 isn't a lot to that. But like,

Speaker 1 33:22

if I was a millionaire, I'd do it.

Nick VinZant 33:25

I don't know if I could justify more than point 5% of my income on a ticket. No, not even that much.

John Shull 33:35

So I in addition to Super Bowl 60, I thought it was interesting. So bad bunny right in Green Day are performing, yeah, and, of course, with the political divide in this country, but there had, did you hear about the alternative halftime show that turning point USA, which is, you know, conservative,

Nick VinZant 33:57

conservative group, there's a conservative version of the halftime show. And I looked at the lineup and didn't know who a single

John Shull 34:03

one of them were. That's not true. You know who Kid Rock is? Oh, calcat.

Nick VinZant 34:07

Kid Rock, yeah, Kid Rock with the other three or four people that I saw on the posters, like, I don't know who that is.

John Shull 34:13

Well, their their country. The two, I think, can think offhand, I think, is Lee Bryce and Jason Aldean. You should know Jason Aldean, because he was the one who was performing at that route 66 or route 66 concert

Nick VinZant 34:25

in Vegas. Oh yeah, they had a big shoot. God Lee. That was a man when the America you can kill 70 people in a mass shooting, and everybody kind of forgets about it after a while.

John Shull 34:37

Well, then I don't know if this is because I'm getting older. It's because I'm in the news business, but the the just the craziness, man is nuts right now, all the theories and all the misinformation, like, like, even that shooting that happened in Vegas, people still say that was that was either not real or was the government like,

Nick VinZant 34:59

I Oh. Yeah, I think that there is a shocking amount of people that are either, either that are easily misled and refuse to believe the thing right in front of them. Like there's a lot of people, I think, that have beliefs that have become their entire personality, and despite the mountain of evidence that is in front of them, they cannot change those beliefs because it's changing their personality and they can't handle it. I've got people in my family that are like that. That's just like, What are you? You were a lunatic, but it's their whole personality, and they can't get out of it, because it's not they can't just say they're wrong, because that would mean that everything that they stand for is wrong, and they can't do that. They're not strong enough.

John Shull 35:38

Speaking of something else, kind of crazy. Have you been following the Nancy Guthrie story? No, so Savannah Guthrie, pretty well known. Anchor, right? National News. Anchor, NBC, sure.

Nick VinZant 35:51

Yeah. Big, big, big, big Savannah G

John Shull 35:57

Well, her mother was kidnapped, 84 years old, and there's been ransom notes sent to different TV stations wanting a ransom. How much are they asking for? I don't think anyone said that yet. I don't think like TMZ got one the local affiliates in Tucson where she was abducted from, like Phoenix. It's just, it's crazy. It's like something out of a movie. It's kind of it's unfolding in real time.

Nick VinZant 36:25

I wonder if that's true. Like, so you still work in the news business. I used to work in the news business. I think we can both say this is that when something hits, like mass media, people come out of all over the place, like you get all kinds of weird calls about any really big news story that, like, I saw him, or I found him, or I'm the one who'd like this, like people come out of there seeking attention all the time,

John Shull 36:49

sure, yeah. I mean not to go back on the what I was just involved with a few days ago, with searching for this six year old with autism. But like, you look on social media, in there were literally, there were literal bloggers or whatever you live streamers standing on street corners, just saying lies like it was insane, like crazy. It was, you know, I understand. That's the way it is. Now I just, I don't know, I don't know how we got to that, but maybe that's the way it's always been. It's just computers and cell phones now allow those individuals to have direct access to to us, but,

Nick VinZant 37:24

well, I think it's just that now those people have a voice, and the algorithms are just such that it elevates that voice, because some people will pay attention, other people will call them out, but either way, people are watching it. We've kind of just found a system that elevates the maniacs amongst us. We've just found a way to amplify the most wrong voices all the time, and that's a huge problem. And I think that you're seeing this worldwide now, a pushback on social media, where some countries are thinking about banning it for kids. I think it's a net negative for all of us.

Speaker 1 37:59

Net negative. I like

Nick VinZant 38:01

a net negative, unless I can see, like a funny video. I think the only thing that should be allowed on social media is verified information and funny videos.

John Shull 38:14

And you know what, I think 98% of the world out there would agree with you. I do

Nick VinZant 38:18

find it fascinating that we live in a world where the vast majority of people can agree on one thing and that we see no progress in that thing whatsoever, man, this is changing into like the complaining thing. Let's see. I got something else. Are you just sitting there waiting for your I feel

John Shull 38:33

like we have to give a quick shout out in memoriam to one of the best

Nick VinZant 38:38

memoriam, yeah,

John Shull 38:39

in memoriam, you said, In Memoriam, it's not what it is. Oh, no, I said In Memoriam to Catherine O'Hara rip passed away this past week. She, you know, iconic roles, Beetlejuice, shits Creek, Home Alone.

Nick VinZant 38:56

Yeah, she's a great actor. Seems always sad to lose somebody.

Speaker 1 39:01

You're the worst. I swear.

Nick VinZant 39:03

I just don't particularly, I'm not really a big fan of her films. I'm not really a big fan. I mean, she seemed like a really nice lady. She seemed like a good actor. Just wasn't my particular, like those. I didn't connect with the works that she was in. But have you ever seen James Creek? Yeah, I didn't particularly think it was like, It's okay, it's all right, it's okay, it's all right, it's all right. I'm glad other people like it. I'm sorry for her loss and for her family's loss. I think that anytime you lose somebody close to you, that's a big deal. I don't think that we should just only elevate celebrities to the only important people in the entire world.

John Shull 39:39

On my notes, I just put Nick hates you and circled it and pointed towards Catherine.

Nick VinZant 39:43

I don't have it. What do you want me to see? You want me to lie? I'll lie for you next time. No, I don't. I don't want you to lie. Be who you are. I am, and you had a problem with it. You get a haircut, didn't you? I did was good. Looks like a haircut. 2265 or 2275 And

John Shull 40:01

then I was going to bring up the Olympics, because they start Friday officially, and they will be the most viewed sporting event this year outside of the World Cup.

Nick VinZant 40:11

But I think it's probably World Cup Olympics. And then the Super Bowl. I bet the Super Bowl is probably bigger than any one Olympic event, though, that would be my guess.

Speaker 1 40:22

Yeah, you're probably right. Are we ready? Curling?

Nick VinZant 40:25

Baby, curling. Baby, that's the only thing that matters. What Olympic what Winter Olympic sport do you think that if somebody just pulled you out of the audience and was like, we need you to do this? Which one do you think that we can do. And I would like to reiterate my position, that I think what the Olympics needs to do is take one person out of the crowd, have them compete, just to show us how much better everybody those Olympic athletes are, because we don't really have a perspective, we need to have just one random person pulled out of the crowd and like, all right, man, ski jump, you're up. I don't

John Shull 41:04

just, I mean, I don't disagree. I mean, I think that would be great for every sport. Because I like, Oh, yeah. Like, I was, I was with some buddies the other night, and there was a story that came on the news when the national news about Haiti is sending two athletes to the Winter Olympics, and they were talking about how they're they're some Italian designer that's give them outfits, whatever. And one of my friends was like, Haiti, I could qualify for any sport. For Haiti, it's like, no, no, no, you couldn't.

Nick VinZant 41:29

Like, right? Like, that is the amount of delusion that leads people to believe that they think that they can outrun a bison, that I think people have a terrible perspective on things that, like, no, that person's actually way, way. I don't think people generally realize how much better somebody at the very top of their profession is than somebody who's really good or kind of good.

John Shull 41:51

I mean, there is no Olympic sport that I could be. There's none. I mean curling. I guess maybe I could get like, mediocre at best, but they would like, like, like, the guests we just had on, like, like, centimeters change games. Like, I wouldn't be able to do that, you know, like, so

Nick VinZant 42:07

it's the ability to do that thing over and over again on demand. I mean,

John Shull 42:11

maybe the Bob sled, like, if I was a driver, dude,

Nick VinZant 42:15

I don't know. Don't you're not, you're not a fast man.

John Shull 42:20

No, the driver, he's in first, he still has to run, and it better be like an extra long bobsled, because I'm gonna need, I'm good. I'm gonna need a bigger gonna need a big cockpit, all right,

Nick VinZant 42:34

are you gonna be the one, like, the only bobsled to ever get stuck on the track, like it got stuck? Stuff America's Bob sled has become stuck.

John Shull 42:50

That would be, no, I don't think I'm that. I mean, I definitely can lose some lbs, but I don't, I don't know if I would eat that would even happen to me. I don't

Nick VinZant 42:58

know, no. I mean, like that. I don't think that's even possible.

John Shull 43:01

I mean, I go ice skating. I've been ice skating more the last two months than I have in the in my entire lifetime, and I that my blades don't sink into the ice. I think I

Nick VinZant 43:09

really can't imagine you ice skating for I don't know if I want to say this. How are you going to feel about this or not, but John, John's body type is a pear, and you ice skating? I just can't imagine, like, Who put that pair on ice skates?

John Shull 43:28

I'm not gonna say I'm good, but like, I can go around, like I can do laughs,

Nick VinZant 43:37

oof, can you, can you go around a turn or a curve and do the thing where, like, one leg goes underneath the other, yeah, not that kind of, like, you know what I'm talking about, not that, like, shuffle turn, but like, Oh, you're turning the way you're supposed to. You can do that.

John Shull 43:52

I can glide like that. Yeah, it's not hard. It's actually a lot easier to do that than to do the three point turn. I think they call it,

Nick VinZant 43:58

oh, okay, yeah, I can't do that. I don't live

John Shull 44:02

in it took me a long time to learn how to stop, but I can stop, which is

Nick VinZant 44:05

pretty cool, you can jump, stop. Can you jump? Stop? No.

John Shull 44:08

Use No. You don't jump stop. On Ice skates.

Nick VinZant 44:12

Usually, some people do,

Speaker 1 44:15

no, I don't think they do.

Nick VinZant 44:17

They get both skates off the ground, and then they come to a stop like a figure I've seen Mighty Ducks. Okay.

John Shull 44:26

Anyways, can we get to the part of the show that you've been

Nick VinZant 44:29

wanting? Fine,

Nick VinZant 44:37

it's time the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again. Candle of the month.

Speaker 1 44:46

All right, we'll keep this one nice and

Nick VinZant 44:48

Oh, you got a piece of paper now. You got a piece of paper out? Yeah, I

John Shull 44:51

have notes. I always have notes, if there's scribbles on them.

Nick VinZant 44:57

Did you like start over? Oh, wait. Oh, God. Right. Look at that mess.

John Shull 45:02

Yeah, I have it broken down into segments. Anyways, okay, okay, all right, so the candle the month we're gonna go a company I've never featured, and I actually got it by accident, and I got it after Christmas, 80% off,

Nick VinZant 45:17

oh, you have to say to me,

John Shull 45:19

and a random like, they're not called stalls. Like, what are you kiosk in a mall?

Nick VinZant 45:27

Yeah, that's okay. This is, I don't really trust a lot of kiosks,

John Shull 45:32

and it's by a company. They're called nest, and it's out in New York, and the candles are actually pretty expensive. Like, if you were to buy this one right now, it's going to be about 50 bucks.

Nick VinZant 45:43

Whoa, that's an expensive candle and but you got it for 80% off, so that would be like $10

John Shull 45:49

yeah, and I got it because it's 80% off. Well, here's what the candle is. It's called the sunlit Yuzu and neroli candle,

Nick VinZant 46:03

okay, very pretentious.

John Shull 46:05

And I exactly, very pretend. I was like, You know what pretentious? I know what yuzu is. I had to look up neroli. But tell you, once it started to burn it, it's one of the best smelling candles I've ever smelled. And so basically what yuzu is, it's citrus, and Neroli is, like, it's a plant that smells like, like an orange tree, like a bitter orange tree. So you mix those, and there's a little bit of vanilla, and it's just like a really like, like in Michigan, we haven't been above freezing since, like, the middle of December, right?

Nick VinZant 46:42

Gotcha to get weather involved in it, and you go, like, above freezing.

Speaker 1 46:48

We have not, we have not, we have not.

Nick VinZant 46:51

I'm gonna check the temperatures while you go on.

John Shull 46:53

That's fair. But anyway, so, like, I, you know, I got the three wick, which is about 100 hours of burn time, and it's just one of those candles I just lit it. It took over the entire room I was in, and it just, it just transported me. And it was really, like, just really out of mind experience. And you don't get that a lot with with some candles, but with this one from nest, New York. It's worth it. Check it out. Sunlit Yuzu and neroli,

Nick VinZant 47:28

Michigan was above freezing two days ago. That is not true at all. Okay, well, then you take it up with the Lansing State Journal,

Speaker 1 47:36

yeah, that is not true at all.

Nick VinZant 47:38

I trust their reporting. Okay. Well, that's your first problem. Where is Lansing? It doesn't matter.

John Shull 47:49

I'm having connection issues. I gotta go. You

Nick VinZant 47:53

didn't get the most important part of candle in the mind.

Speaker 1 47:57

What's that?

Nick VinZant 47:58

The part where we remind people that you have had sex with a woman at least a few times, yes, at least a few times. Is there anything new on the candle forums? Any new hot debates going into 2026 have you stirred any controversy up?

John Shull 48:14

No, after the holidays, a lot of it really is just people complaining about the return process

Nick VinZant 48:22

that that's and that seems like exactly what this would be like.

John Shull 48:27

Sounds like, there's, there's, there's usually a lot of people who are upset because they'll buy them at stores or like, kiosk in the mall, and they'll go to return them, and they're not there anymore, like the pop ups are gone.

Nick VinZant 48:42

What percent of people on the candle forums would you say have multiple cats?

Speaker 1 48:49

Oh, 80 to 90%

Nick VinZant 48:53

it's got to be up there. It's definitely way up there.

John Shull 48:56

I want. Actually, I was looking at, I was on there the other day, and I wanted to, I thought of a cool, like, how cool would be that? Like, have a segment on here where I just showed you photos of, like, people's profiles. But then I was like, I don't want to, you know, yeah, but, like, some of the photos are like, you're like, okay, oh, Sandra, she might have 66 candles, but she has 74 cats.

Nick VinZant 49:20

Oh yeah, that's the, probably the only thing, like, how often do you log on to the candle form? Is this a daily thing?

John Shull 49:28

No, I mean, probably, probably every other day.

Nick VinZant 49:33

Okay, all right,

John Shull 49:34

they, actually, they're just getting ready to try to do a, like, a thread, like a cell thread, you know, like a where you can post candles to sell and buy.

Nick VinZant 49:44

Oh, my God, what's a big thing? That's the baby. This isn't just on Reddit. This is a private forum that you go to,

John Shull 49:51

no so, like, like, it's, it would be a sub, like a sub folder in Reddit, or whatever sub reddit, you know what? I mean. Okay, okay, so they have. Of them. They do have them out there, but this would be like in in this candle Reddit thread.

Nick VinZant 50:04

So okay, well, I'll put the link in the description of the show, because I know people brought it up in there. You brought it up all right? I just, I'm because I'm never disappointed at how, how much deeper this hobby of yours goes. I love you. Ever met up with somebody at the candle form? Have you made a friend?

John Shull 50:25

No, but about a month ago, I was at Bath and Body Works, and I had to ask my wife if I could engage with somebody, because she just looked lost while she was looking at the candles. And I just wanted to go over and tell her that, like, you know, tis the season is the best scent ever. Like, get as much of it as you can. But I had to get permission from my wife, because just don't want to go over and talk to this lady. And she was very thankful. She was very thankful.

Nick VinZant 50:52

Okay, maybe that's what you could do in your retirement, is just hang outside a Ken's store. Why don't you work at Beth and body works? You could be like an honorary ambassador.

John Shull 51:00

Hey, my my children wanted an apron. Because, you know, their employees wear aprons, some of them, like, maybe, maybe that's my aunt. Is my daughter's, I don't know,

Nick VinZant 51:09

maybe someday you can dream a boy can dream of life at the candle.

Speaker 1 51:17

Okay, are you ready for our top five? I am. I think I have some good ones.

Nick VinZant 51:21

Oh, okay, okay, so our top five is top five places to people. Watch your number five.

Speaker 1 51:29

So my number five are airports.

Nick VinZant 51:32

Oh, that's way too low for airport.

John Shull 51:36

You way too low for airport. You can say that. But I think I have some really, really good ones.

Nick VinZant 51:43

They better be really good, because I would not even think that airport would be number five in any way.

John Shull 51:49

Here, can I tell you the one reason why I didn't put airports higher for me personally, yes, is because when I'm in an airport, yes, it's great people watching, but I'm usually more antsy or eager or whatever, to get on the plane. Like I don't really spend a lot of time. Like I'm not relaxed enough just to sit there while waiting for my flight, to look around and, like, pinpoint, you know, watch other people I do, but I don't, like enjoy it, like I'm not relaxed enough to do it.

Nick VinZant 52:18

I cannot stand getting on a plane, I would think that if I'm one of the more I'm probably the most calm and relaxed person that I personally know about going going into situations. And I hate getting on a plane. I can't stand it. I hate it more than anything in the world. That is my like, if my idea of hell would be trying to get onto a plane to go to Orlando, Florida in the summertime. Like if I was transported to hell, it would just be that constantly,

John Shull 52:47

yeah, I just shut that shit down with my wife. She wanted to go there or

Nick VinZant 52:50

spring break. No way. Man, no way. I'm not used

Speaker 1 52:55

to work there. But what are you talking about?

Nick VinZant 52:57

You can look at Disney World on YouTube. That's the only thing that you're getting. I'm not getting into this with you. My number five is Walmart. I would have Walmart a lot higher, but I think you kind of start to worry about the future of humanity if you're there too long, like you can't people watch there for a long time, because you really start to lose a little bit of faith in humanity.

John Shull 53:19

So that that that was, like my first honorable mention. And I debated putting it like three or four, but like I said, I think I got some good ones, so I agree with you. Plus I don't really want to dog Walmart for the people, because I feel like, you know, you go to Costco, and I could people watch there and just have a field day too. It's just a different level of crazy, like, how Walmart is to me,

Nick VinZant 53:43

oh yeah, Walmart has a higher level of crazy than Costco. Costco is a little bit tame compared to Walmart. I But if somebody put Walmart is number one, I wouldn't be like, Okay, that's what I thought when you posted airport, I thought it's like, Who's he gonna put Walmart number one?

John Shull 54:03

Okay, my number four are Renaissance festivals.

Nick VinZant 54:07

Oh, I have not been, but I have heard, I have heard things like,

John Shull 54:13

once I should say this, because it's gonna come up a few times for me. So here's my blanket statement. I'm not making fun of those that go I've been to them. I just have never dressed up. But man, if you want a full day of like eating turkey legs in the hot sun and looking at people dressed up as real Vikings in August in any state, go to Renaissance festivals. It is, it is something to see.

Nick VinZant 54:39

I feel like a Renaissance Festival is more like a classier County Fair. Like, I can't go to I've been to one county fair, and I was like, No, this is too much for me. Like, I don't know where these people came from, but I'm not come. I need to be somewhere else.

John Shull 54:57

When I was a teenager, my city. Used to do, like a memorial day fair and one one year the Ring of Fire. Do you remember that at all? Not really. All right. Well, all of you poor Midwestern, Midwesterners out there know what I'm talking about. Well, it like literally came off the tracks and I told myself, I'm never going to a carnival ever again. And that that was it.

Nick VinZant 55:19

So trust amusement fair rides whatsoever. Yeah, you didn't hear number four. My number four is any government building, any place where you are mixing with groups of people that you don't normally mix with, is going to be some great, great people watching because you're like, Oh, I didn't know these people existed.

John Shull 55:42

I had so similarly, I had courts, like courthouse on my honorable mention, because it's, yeah, you get so many people from every walk of life, and it always makes for mixes, for good stuff,

Nick VinZant 55:54

the DMV, the place where you get your driver's license. Every time I'm like, Who are these people? Where did they come from? Like, the guy who's got, like, a full on six foot subway sub, and he brought it with him to the DMV. Like, what do you what?

John Shull 56:15

Okay, yeah, man, all right, my number three are theme parks.

Nick VinZant 56:20

Oh, yeah, okay, okay, okay. Very good, very good. My number three is the front porch. Just sitting on your front porch watching people walk by. I love it. I love it. I would live on my front porch if I could just watch people. You're a watcher. I am. I am

John Shull 56:42

all right, my number two are comic cons.

Nick VinZant 56:45

Okay, okay, that's kind of my people.

John Shull 56:49

So I'm like, Oh yeah, you gonna dress up? You gonna go to a furry con?

Nick VinZant 56:54

No, I couldn't dress up for anything. I don't think I could wear, like, if I had skeleton pajamas, which I think I do. I could wear those. I could never really dress up for anything. I'm like, I'm not. I'm not that type of person.

John Shull 57:08

I don't I almost, I'm not sure how I feel about people that like want to mirror like somebody else to the point to where they want to look exactly like them.

Nick VinZant 57:21

Yeah, that's a lot of effort. That's a lot of effort. Uh, my number two is the mall, but specifically the food court at the mall. Food Court has the best people watching in the mall, like, Oh, what are they gonna go eat? Oh, where are they going? Yeah.

John Shull 57:39

I mean, that's okay. I mean, I don't know. I feel like it doesn't apply much anymore, because malls are dead.

Nick VinZant 57:46

There's a couple, you can still find a couple malls. I mean, I understand that you live in Detroit, which is in the process of collapsing, so there's probably not a lot of places to go, but I live in a vibrant area this country, and there's a lot of malls here. Also rains a lot, or doesn't rain a lot, it rains frequently. So there's more malls

John Shull 58:06

here, all right, so my number one, NASCAR races,

Nick VinZant 58:11

oh man, yeah, monster truck rally with mud and competition with,

John Shull 58:24

without a doubt, it is that crowd that goes to those kind of events. I some of the highlights that I've seen. Let me just give you two. One was a man who had a full back tattoo of Dale Earnhardt, senior. That was pretty impressive. And I and then the other one that I remember quite vividly was a guy, you know, the Marine slogan is like, Don't tread on tread on me or tread on us. I don't think that's the marine slogan. Is it? What hyper phi? Well, what is, Don't tread on me. Is that?

Nick VinZant 58:58

I think that's the Gaston flag. I don't know it's one of those. I don't know what it is. I've heard it before, but I could it

John Shull 59:05

is, you are you are correct? Well, this person had that on his chest, except the A was missing in the E was gone on me. So it was just, like, you know, don't tread on and it was just, I'll never forget it. It was, I don't know, just ridiculous. So if you

Nick VinZant 59:25

were gonna get something spelled on your body as a tattoo, how many times would you spell check it?

John Shull 59:33

Oh, I mean, constantly. But I think I've actually, I think I'm gonna get a tattoo. So I've had a lot of so I've had a lot of thoughts. I don't think I'd go with, like, big words, you know, I mean, I would get initials or

Nick VinZant 59:45

something. You're not going to get a tattoo of candles.

John Shull 59:49

I thought about just getting PP on my throat right there for profoundly pointless.

Nick VinZant 59:53

You could. You would definitely, yeah, it would be a conversation starter. You. It would be a calm Why don't you get it, like, full back? Oh my god, I'm not getting on each butt cheek.

Speaker 1 1:00:07

I'm not sure they have enough ink for that. You

Nick VinZant 1:00:09

know what? I'm gonna go ahead and say it to anybody listening to this. If somebody gets PP for profoundly pointless tattooed on their butt cheeks, I'll pay for the tattoo.

Speaker 1 1:00:18

Yeah, but I want to see some photos.

Nick VinZant 1:00:21

Oh yeah, well, I mean tasteful photos. I don't want to see somebody's like, I don't want to catch this. I don't want to see something. I don't want to see I'll pay for it, but I'm going to need to see a receipt.

John Shull 1:00:35

Don't hold this ransom for your

Nick VinZant 1:00:37

plus 10% extra ass tattoo. My number one is the airport. I think you can see every human emotion at the airport, joy, sadness, anger, every emotion is displayed at the airport. And you can watch one person coming through, meeting their family that they haven't seen, and you can see somebody else just pissed off. It's endless. The airport, to me, is the best people watching, because you can see every human emotion there.

John Shull 1:01:06

Yeah, it's you could literally start a timeline from the moment you either get there to pick somebody up or you go to get on a flight. And if you read it when you land or whatever, you're going to have gone through every emotion known to man,

Nick VinZant 1:01:20

oh yeah, and every situation too, like dad with kids, single mom, recently divorced, like guys on trip, like you could see everything. It's fantastic place. Just people watch not to go. Do you anything your honorable mention other

John Shull 1:01:38

than what was already brought up? I put on a I put on here, a city bus.

Nick VinZant 1:01:43

Oh, public transportation is pretty good. Seattle has really good public transportation. It's very common for people to ride public transportation. And even then, it's very fascinating. Like, who are these people? Where are they going? Like, what are they all doing,

John Shull 1:02:01

trying to get to the mall to get candles.

Nick VinZant 1:02:03

Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best spots for people watching. I was really surprised that John put airport that high. I think airport is the best I really do. But if you think there's something else so we don't know about it, I love me some people watching.


Curling Olympians Ben Richardson and Korey Dropkin

Olympic Curling is all about precision. It’s a sport where less than half and inch can mean the difference between winning a Gold Medal and getting last place. Team USA Curling Olympians Ben Richardson and Korey Dropkin join us to talk Curling basics, the unique strategy behind each throw and falling on ice.

Then, it’s Curling and Ski Jumping vs. Figure Skating and Bobsled as we countdown the Top 5 Winter Olympic Sports.

00:00 Introducing Curling Olympians Ben Richardson and Korey Dropkin

01:16: The Extreme Precision of Olympic Curling

03:41: Curling Strategy

06:57: No Mistakes

09:03: Sweeping and Throwing in Curling

11:26: Curling Gold Medal Favorites

12:18: Curling Popularity

13:53: Curling Falls and Fails

17:30: Pointless

40:03: The Top 5 Winter Olympic Sports

Korey Dropkin Instagram

Korey Dropkin TikTok

Ben Richardson Instagram

Team Casper Instagram

Contact the Show

Interview the Team USA Curling Olympians Ben Richardson and Korey Dropkin

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode Olympic sports. And Olympic

Korey Dropkin 0:20

sports, there's a lot of shots in curling where the difference between the perfect shot and the worst outcome ever is a half an inch.

Ben Richardson 0:30

And it's all about like speed control, like you're just you're trying to slide out at a very specific speed. And we use stop watches to time ourselves when we're when we're throwing so and I was, you know, horizontal in the air, and everything just came smacking down onto the ice.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guests, because I love this sport, and it turns out it is so much more intricate than I realized. This is curling, Olympians, Corey dropkin And Ben Richardson. So what makes somebody good at curling?

Korey Dropkin 1:19

Hand, eye coordination is key understanding balance. But when it comes to separating, you know, the the club curlers from the elite curlers, it comes down to is, is more often than not the mindset. You know, everyone will have put in enough reps to be able to make all the shots on the ice, but making those shots in the most pressure some moments really separates that crowd.

Nick VinZant 1:46

Do you think people realize how difficult it is?

Ben Richardson 1:50

It's way harder than it looks, for sure, lot more balance than you think it takes, just like, figuring out how to throw a rock and, like, get it all the way down to the other end, because it's like, 140 feet long, like, it's not a short distance.

Nick VinZant 2:03

It's 140 feet. I would have seen it on TV. I would have thought that was 30 feet.

Ben Richardson 2:08

And the rocks aren't light either. They're like 42 pounds solid granite. And it's all about, like, speed control, like you're just, you're trying to slide out at a very specific speed. And we use stop watches to time ourselves when we're when we're throwing. So if you're sweeping someone's rock, you time it from like a certain line to a certain line. And we're trying to throw like we're we're able to throw, say, like a 3.95 throw, and then go from that to like a three point 90 throw, like, within like five milliseconds, we're able to adjust our speed to, like, to the right type of speed that we need to be throwing.

Nick VinZant 2:45

You can make those small of adjustments. Like, can you really tell the difference? Like, oh, that throw was 3.92 this one, the next one needs to be 3.98 like, I was six. I was six milliseconds long on that one. Yeah.

Ben Richardson 3:00

Even, uh even, this morning, I was doing a drill with my teammate, Aiden. I would sit down about right. I'd get ready to throw, and Aiden would say, Okay, throw a 2.25 and then if I got it within point oh two, then he would move on to the next one. And then I would tell him, Okay, throw a 2.1 and like we would, we would throw it and be like, Oh, I think I threw it too hard. I think I threw it too hard. And then look back, and instead of the 2.1 we were going for it be 2.15 which is too fast, you know? And so, like, we can, we can feel our bodies and how fast they're going. And that's like, the main goal of the drill is to basically be able to tell, like, how fast your body is moving down the ice, and just have a sense for, like, the speed that you're going.

Nick VinZant 3:41

So what's, like, the overall strategy? Like, what are you fundamentally trying to do?

Ben Richardson 3:47

I'll give you some basic strategy. So when? So there's eight rocks that each team throws, and you alternate. So like, if, if we throw first, then the next team goes and vice versa, if you are the team that throws last, it's called having the hammer. So like, if, if my team throws first, then the other team has hammer, because if you go back and forth, and the other team is going to end up throwing last. So if you have the hammer, your the main objective is to kind of keep the middle of the sheet open so that you can make that last shot and and get multiple and just basically keep it open for that last so you draw all the play basically to the sides of the sheet, rather than the very center. But and vice versa, if you don't have the hammer, then you kind of want to plug up the center as much as possible and make sure that it's as hard for the team with hammer as possible for them to score on their last shot. But that is like the absolute basics. There is, like so much that goes into it, even the strategy is evolving, like you're seeing new rules coming out that change up the strategy. So it's changing on a yearly basis. But people call it chess on ice for a good reason, like no two ends are almost ever exact. The same and end is when all throw, all rocks have been thrown to one end of the sheet. So it's like, it's kind of like an inning in baseball.

Nick VinZant 5:07

Is it better to be first or second or like, not really.

Ben Richardson 5:11

It's better to have the hammer. Yeah, for sure. That's what you want. And before every game starts, especially at like, the Olympic and world level, we'll do what's called a draw shot, where each team for basically, like their practice, before the game starts, they'll throw one as close to the center as possible, and whoever gets closest gets to have the hammer in the first end. Which is, which is a pretty big advantage. It's not like going to win you the game all the time, but it's, it's, it's a nice perk to have.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Is it better to be first or second or like? Not really it.

Ben Richardson 5:45

I wouldn't say it would beat skill, but it can lose you games for sure. I've come across a lot of teams over my career that they're great shooters, great at sweeping, great at everything, but then they just they call the wrong shot, and even if they make it like we still we're still able to win, and we have a better shot to play. So I would say definitely can lose you a game. But the skill is, is definitely the most important part.

Nick VinZant 6:13

Will you kind of watch film on the people that you're going up against? Do you adjust the strategy for every time?

Korey Dropkin 6:20

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, you know, definitely watch a lot of film. I do think Curling is one of those sports, especially mixed doubles curling, because mixed doubles curling, you always have, like, a stationary setup for the most part, and so in the beginning of the end, there's a lot of similar shots. But I think it's important to know your your opponents, and to know where your most likely mistake on their behalf is going to be to try to set yourselves up to you know, open those windows of opportunity.

Nick VinZant 6:57

I don't know if this question is going to make any sense, but so let's say scale of one to 10. A 10 is a perfect throw. How close do you need to be to a 10 in order to have a good throw? I'm basically trying to ask like, how much of a mistake can you make? Like, if 10 is the best throw, can you be an eight and still be okay? Or do you have to be like, No, you need to be, like, 9.6 like, how does that make sense when I'm asking you, like, how much leeway Do you have?

Korey Dropkin 7:31

Absolutely the best answer is, it really depends on the shot. If it's just an open draw to the forefoot. I mean, you can probably get away with like a six or a seven, if you have really good sweepers. You know, a good set of sweepers can probably drag a rock like, you know, eight feet, give or take, depending on the conditions of the ice. And so there's a lot of shots in curling where you will, there's a lot of shots in curling where the difference between the perfect shot and the worst outcome ever is a half an inch. And it all depends on the it all depends on the angle setup. Um, curling is a game of angles. It's a game of trying to get control of the House, of the forefoot, but of the best angle on the sheet. And if, if you are a half inch too deep, or a half inch off center of where you need to be, that is potentially the difference between a 10 out of 10 and zero out of 10

Nick VinZant 8:42

that much, right? It's that specific,

Korey Dropkin 8:46

especially in mixed doubles. You know, one inch wide, one inch under curl, and you've potentially just given the opponents the biggest out to score a bundle versus, you know, having a steel locked in like a score of one without the hammer.

Nick VinZant 9:03

Locked in. Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions, faster you bet better to be a good thrower or a sweeper. A good thrower is sweeper even close, or is it like no thrower by a mile?

Korey Dropkin 9:17

Oh, it is. It is sweeping is very close. Sweeping has become such an important piece of the game, especially with how effective we have become as sweepers.

Ben Richardson 9:25

That's actually part of the controversy that's happening a little bit right now with the sweeping in our sport, is people are getting so good at sweeping and so good at the techniques involved with it, that it's taking the throwing part a little bit out of it. So like, the sweeping is very important. But like, at the heart of curling, people say that the throwing is the important part. Like the sweeping, you should be able to make the shot with like, 80% throwing, and then the last 20% with the sweeping. It shouldn't be like 5050, the sweeping is just like, to help it out a little bit. You know, the throwing is. Like the main part of the

Nick VinZant 10:00

sport, can the people who are sweeping, can they tell what needs to be done, or does somebody else have to be telling them what to do? Does that make sense?

Ben Richardson 10:11

It does. And that's a that's a really good question, because it's a little bit of both. As a sweeper, you are primarily responsible for the speed of the rock. So say we're trying to throw one right in the middle of the, you know, the bullseye, which we call the house. If whoever throws it through it not hard enough, then we need to sweep it to get it there, because that's, you know, sweeping makes it go further. So that's our responsibility. And then if, say they throw it too hard, then we don't sweep at all, because it's we just need it to slow down where we don't have any control, where we need something to be decided for us is the line of the shot. So like the trajectory of where the rock is going. So on the team, you have the skip who's standing at the other end and calling all the shots. He's the one that's watching the line. So say that there's a rock that we're trying to go around, but we're getting, like, really too close to it, like, we're going to probably touch it and wreck on it. We need to sweep it to hold it straight, and that's what the skip is responsible for. And we can't see that at all. So we're the sweepers are responsible for the speed of the shot, but the skip is the one that's yelling at them. Like, hard. You got to go for line. You gotta, you gotta get past this rock. They're responsible for the line. So it's like, half and half between the two.

Nick VinZant 11:26

Yeah. Speed one, speed one trajectory. Yeah, yeah. That's good way to put it. Who's kind of like, considered, and if it's you guys, like, who's the, who's the best, I guess, who is everybody kind of looking at is, you can look

Ben Richardson 11:37

at the rankings and be like, okay, like Scotland and Switzerland, Canada, and then it's us, and then it's like, Sweden and Italy. But, like, it's, it's really just all about like, who has a good week, you know, like, we've beaten all those teams before. It's not like, if you're number one in the world, you're unbeatable. Like, we curling. It's just a matter of, like, who shows up that week and who gets hot?

Nick VinZant 11:59

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you, is it the kind of thing where, hey, the person who's supposedly the best usually wins the most, or is it we're all right there. You just got to have a good day.

Ben Richardson 12:11

The best teams tend to, you know, win more than the not so good teams. But it's, it's, it's more so just whoever shows up that day.

Nick VinZant 12:18

What's it like to be the most popular sport in the Olympics, like curling is, to me, the most popular sport in the Olympics. Did curlers get a sense of that?

Korey Dropkin 12:31

You know, I would say it's, it's, it's humbling and impressive and really appreciated, but it's also, in a way, slightly disappointing. And I say that because I love that the all the eyes, there's so many eyes on our sport, but it's every four years, and and so like, where are all those eyes in between, you know, and, and, and part of that is just needing to build more exposure for the sport, needing to, you know, have, you know, more streaming outputs, more you know, a network that's as you know, wanting to expose and capture more of curling more frequently.

Nick VinZant 13:15

Can you make a full time living in the United States off of it like, Could you do it?

Ben Richardson 13:21

I'd say no. I mean, there's teams out there, and I think of like, you know, Team Shuster, they've, they've been curling for a long time, and they've been, they've gone to the past five Olympics, and they have some pretty nice sponsorships that can allow them to mostly curl full time. But that's just like one team, you know, like, I don't want to say that, like one team equals the rest of the teams in the country, so I we're not at that point yet, but we're getting there where we're taking the right steps.

Korey Dropkin 13:53

Last time you fell, I have actually more than you'd think, close calls of, like, being able to also catch myself, sort of like partial mid fall. But my last, like, big spill, I also published online, and I was, like, taking my warm up slide down sheet eight of the Duluth curling club, and was sort of getting up out of the slide, and my gripper foot was a bit greasy, and it just sort of slipped out from under me, and I was, you know, horizontal in the air, and everything just came smacking down onto the ice. And you see me, sort of like getting up looking left, because there was other curlers, you know, in the club, like, able to just hear the pound on the ice.

Ben Richardson 14:43

So a couple events ago, not too long ago, there was, we went to an event in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, that's, there's this grand slam circuit kind of similar to, like the the PGA Tour for curling. It's. And there was a grand slam event, and we were playing a game, and I was sweeping a rock and trying to, trying to make it curl, and my feet got caught underneath me, and I tripped forward. And if you hit the rock while you're sweeping, it's called Burning the rock. Thankfully, I didn't burn it. I was able to, kind of like, move my arms around the rock so I didn't touch it. But funny enough. Every every slam event, they have what's called the whiff of the week, where they just compile these different like, See, they're like, a really bad shot, somebody falls, somebody just does something kind of dumb. So I made the whiff of the week along with two other clips, and they, they did, like, fan voting for it, and it hasn't been released yet. Who's won it? I think actually, very soon they're going to release, but if I win it, I get 1000 bucks. So it's like, I get to I get money for being stupid, which would be

Nick VinZant 15:47

kind of cool. That's that seems worth it, honestly, like I would be going for whiff of the week every Oh, he fell again. Why does he always fall whenever we have this?

Ben Richardson 15:55

Yeah, weird. Why does he keep doing that?

Nick VinZant 15:57

Where do you think this sport is going? Where do you think it's headed I

Ben Richardson 16:02

think it's heading in the right direction. There's been some exciting stuff happening recently. I mentioned briefly the the professional curling league that's being worked on. It's the same people that run that, that slam event, that tour for curling. They're the same ones that started what's called the rock League, which which is premiering this April. But their goal is basically to create more full time curlers. So they're going to, like, you're going to be part of this league, you're going to get a salary for being in this league, and then maybe you don't have to work a nine to five job anymore like we do. So it's cool, it's it's a hard task. We need to get some bigger sponsors, you know, to make that work, but they're a Canadian company, so it's, it helps them that they're in Canada. You know, Canada, it's easier to get sponsors for curling because it's so much more well known than in the States. But yeah, it's, it's getting more popular every single day. More curling clubs are popping up across the country every time the Olympics comes up. Is there's that big surge of interest and that that always helps. You know, even though it kind of wanes over the next couple years, it still helps the sport grow. So it's going up. It's really exciting to see.

Nick VinZant 17:09

I want to thank Corey and Ben so much for joining us. If you want to connect with them, we have a link to them on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included their information in the episode description. And if you want to see more of this interview, the YouTube version is now live. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. When is the last time you ran full speed like as fast as you can,

John Shull 17:43

I fat guy jog, and sometimes I try to run fast.

Nick VinZant 17:47

I don't think that I've probably dead sprinted. It's probably, it could be it's between 15 and 20 years.

John Shull 17:57

Just not sure that you need to run. You know what I mean, like, what the purpose of running is to run away from something or run at someone, and I just don't know. I mean, what, what experiences or what instances on everyday life do you have to do that?

Nick VinZant 18:13

You really only be running from a disaster, whether one that is natural or one that is caused, like you really don't they. You really don't have any reason to run if I didn't like do some exercises where I jump, I probably also wouldn't have jumped in 20 years. But you and I are not alone. I polled the audience about this. 14% of people, like 57 people say within the last year. I bet that audience skews a little bit younger. In that regard, I bet we got some early 20 year olds in there. 0% say one to five years. I think that will change as this poll gets older. 14% say five to 10 and 29% say more than 10 years. Is the last time that they full on ran.

John Shull 19:01

I mean, that's fair. I mean, I think that's if you're being truthful with yourself, that's correct.

Nick VinZant 19:07

Golly, that's crazy. What would our ancestors think about that? If you were suddenly in a room with a bunch of like, cave men, and they were talking about, when is the last time you full on ran? And they were probably like, every day, and we're like, I haven't run in 20 years.

John Shull 19:23

It's probably what they would have said, which, by the way, I need to put this out there that I sent you one of the funniest Instagram reels I've ever seen, and you put it down by saying it was AI and it evolved the horse. And I'm disappointed, disappointed it's AI.

Nick VinZant 19:39

It's like, I'm just like, when I see something that's AI, I don't care how funny it is, I'm not interested in it. I'm not interested in it because I don't want to see more of that crap. Like, that's that's an automatic delete for me. I already, as soon as I saw that went, That's AI, I deleted it. I didn't just respond. I didn't just, like, not play into your game. I deleted it off my phone.

John Shull 19:59

Yeah. To leave. I was trying. You know, they say there was a poll done by myself this past weekend, and I amongst the three voters that were in the room with me. Instagram reels are a way of love. I was showing you love and appreciation.

Nick VinZant 20:15

Well, I would love and appreciate it if you don't send me AI slop anymore.

Speaker 1 20:19

See, I'm saying, See, it's just because it's another

Nick VinZant 20:21

it's another thing of getting old, right? Like, you're the person who now you're on Facebook typing in people's names in the search bar, like you post things when you think it's the search bar. Like, that's where you are now you're like, you're the old internet grandpa that doesn't know what's going on. Is that a thing? Do people actually do that? That's hilarious. Yeah, you've never seen that before where someone's like, clearly made a post that they thought the post place was the search bar. Like, that's not how that works.

John Shull 20:50

No, I haven't seen that. So come on, let's

Nick VinZant 20:53

I'm not gonna play into dooming society.

John Shull 20:56

Let's hear it. I wanna, I want, I want you to talk about, rub it in my face that the Detroit Lions are the worst NFL team ever. Seattle Seahawks are the greatest. I don't

Nick VinZant 21:06

think that needs to be rubbed in your face. I think that's a common knowledge. Like you don't really need to rub it in someone's face that two plus two is four. Everybody already knows about that. Like, the only people who think that the Detroit Lions are a good team or have any sort of redeeming qualities are people who are deluded in Detroit like, Oh, we're gonna go be good this year, which is what you said at the beginning of this year, oh, I want to put $1 on ruin Super Bowl. You need to make the playoffs. You're not a good team. Like, a good year, the best year in Detroit Lions history is, what, like, a couple of games above 500 like, you guys make the playoffs. It's a big deal. Detroit sports are terrible. You're terrible. You've always been terrible. You're always going to be terrible. It's at this point there's not going to be any good Detroit sports teams ever like you're never going to be good at anything. It's over.

Speaker 1 21:58

Do you want to do shout outs now?

Nick VinZant 22:00

Yeah, let's go nothing. Like, you can't say anything you get. Well, what about

John Shull 22:07

No, I mean, I mean, you're wrong. We're we have the best basketball team currently, no, you don't hockey team currently,

Nick VinZant 22:13

no, you don't do the championship. They win the championship because I only count championships. I don't count like, Oh, they're pretty good early on in the season, but you didn't see it. They have a lot of moral victories. They're really doing well. Like, the only reason you think you're doing well is because you do so terribly all the other times that, like, Wow, man, we're doing great this year. No, you're just not as bad as you were last year, but you're going to be worse the next year. I wouldn't even be a fan. And this is, this is where I get mad at like, Look, I know you have great passion for Detroit, and I respect that, but at some point you have to hold those teams accountable. And you guys aren't doing that. You got to stop showing up. You got to stop rooting for me. Like, this is not acceptable. We're not going to tolerate this, because having a bad sports team says a lot about your city. When a city has a good sports team, that city becomes on the rise. You see it all guitar, you clearly you're

John Shull 23:14

not, you know, you do a little history. Take a history lesson before you start talking shit about the lions, who were the worst team in the NFL for easily five years. They missed the Super Bowl by 3.2 years ago, okay, three years ago now, like, Oh, wow.

Nick VinZant 23:33

So three years ago, they almost got a chance to get second place.

Speaker 1 23:40

Why? Why am I even engaging?

Nick VinZant 23:42

Because you need to hold people accountable. Detroit needs to rise up and tell the owners of these sports teams that we're not going to tolerate this. You're the problem. The whole city of Detroit is the problem. You're allowing it. You're allowing it to happen.

John Shull 23:55

Here's some shout outs. But it's been quite cold here, by the way. I'm sure it has, all right. Well, here's some shout outs for you. All right, Freeman, hang Yeah, they're all new.

Nick VinZant 24:09

Usually the name Freeman I haven't like, sometimes we'll have repeat names or similar names. Freeman's a new one, in my opinion.

John Shull 24:18

Surprisingly, we have enough people every week that either like us or, you know, comment or something, that it's an easy enough time to get new names, all right. Gretchen Levy, Ray Wolf, Raphael Werner, Jed Allen, Jenna Snyder, Mike moody, Stacey Pittman and Virgil Dyer. I think that

Nick VinZant 24:41

if I had to share a name with an animal, Wolf would be wolf would probably be the number one name, Wolf. I had to have an animal based name, Wolf would be it. I would want Wolf.

Nick VinZant 24:58

Yeah, I think of a better one. Man, can you think of a better can you think of a better name to share an animal with? Wait, can you think of a better animal to share a name with than Wolf?

John Shull 25:11

I mean, realistically, no, like shark would be pretty cool.

Nick VinZant 25:14

Shark, shark could be in there, yeah.

John Shull 25:17

But like Tiger would be cool. Yeah, but like, it's not real. You can't name your kid, you know, tiger, but Wolf is a name. Like, I feel like you could name your kid Wolf, and it wouldn't be too out of the blue, like, naming your kid like crab, you know, like, I mean, crab just wouldn't pass, you know, orca or Gunga, beluga.

Nick VinZant 25:43

Balloon. You wouldn't want beluga would be one of the worst elephant. I wouldn't even mind elephant, to be honest with you, because, like, maybe people would make fun of you. But then elephants are cool, man.

John Shull 25:54

They're okay. They're smart, right? That's about it.

Nick VinZant 25:57

They're smart. They show emotions. Take care of their young and their old. They grieve. All right, let's grieve elephants.

John Shull 26:05

Grieve. Was that it, by the way, was that the only question you had? You said you had some bangers. Was it just a bank?

Nick VinZant 26:10

I never said I have any bangers. That's not the kind of word that I would ever use.

John Shull 26:14

You said you were ready and you had some, some good questions or something. Is that a turtleneck? I love how you can't admit to anything. No, this is

Nick VinZant 26:23

not really distracted by the idea that that could be a turtleneck. Did you ever wear a turtleneck? No, yeah, that's, that's one of those clothings that I don't care what your sexual preference is. I don't think that men should ever wear turtlenecks, just for the record.

John Shull 26:39

Nick didn't have another question, but that that's actually a pretty good question.

Nick VinZant 26:43

No, oh, would you ever wear a turtleneck? No, I think that no man should ever wear a turtleneck. There might be, there might be three men in history who can pull off a turtleneck.

John Shull 26:55

Okay, I no one else cares, but let's go one for one here, because I have three names that just popped into my head. So you Okay, okay, okay. So you go, first, you say one, then I'll say one.

Nick VinZant 27:07

The guy from Devil Wears Prada, I think his name is Stanley Tucci, okay, yeah, that's the really, honestly, the only person that I can think of that could wear a turtleneck as a man is Stanley Tucci. No one else I think should wear own

John Shull 27:22

for some reason Paul Rudd came into my mind. No,

Nick VinZant 27:27

no. Okay, I don't I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you. I don't think Paul Rudd should wear a turtleneck. There's also a guy that makes a small appearance in the movie Sweet Home Alabama, that could wear a turtleneck. I don't know what his name is, but it's like, Oh, that guy could wear, he could wear a turtle neck.

John Shull 27:43

I love how at least two people out there were like, Oh yeah, that guy,

Nick VinZant 27:47

but somebody's gonna know who he is. He's in the scene where they go find out that the one guy makes the glass

John Shull 27:53

I've never seen Sweet Home, Alabama. It's not, it's all right, is somebody playing

Nick VinZant 27:58

ping pong behind you? Yeah, I have a ping pong table in my basement. It's amazing. I'm going I'm going to go ahead and say that Ping Pong is one of the greatest games we've ever invented. It's all the fun of sports without any of the exercise.

John Shull 28:11

I mean, it can get I mean, you're moving. I mean, I used to have a ping pong table in my basement.

Nick VinZant 28:17

How did that go? Didn't you somebody hole in the wall. You could somebody

John Shull 28:23

went through the wall, literally went into the wall,

Nick VinZant 28:27

and you got rid of the ping pong table. You couldn't stick to your guns.

John Shull 28:30

I mean, we got a couch. It's when I didn't have any furniture down here.

Nick VinZant 28:35

You got rid of a ping pong table to get a couch. Yes, sad to me. God, domesticated.

John Shull 28:45

You want to see the basement? I can show you. No, I don't. Alright. So one of the questions I have, or one of the topics I had for you today, okay, okay, okay. Michigan today announced that high school athletes will be able to have n i l deals and be paid for their likenesses. I think it's the first, the first state to do that. Though I don't know that for certain, but that's dangerous. I mean, that is, I feel like most college kids who are and on N i l deals can't, you know, and I don't want to speak for them, but I feel like if I was a college kid and I got, I made $10 million a year playing a sport, I would, I wouldn't know what to do with the money, right? I would have no idea how to be financially responsible. I I'm okay.

Nick VinZant 29:36

The only reason that I would not be okay with it is because I think that there are too many people who would try to take advantage of the kids, and those are kids right? At least when you're college age, you are technically an adult. Even though I don't really consider an 1819, 20 year old to be an adult, you have all the legal whatever to be an adult. I don't. Like, for some reason it gives me pause for college kids to have that only because I feel like people are going to really try to take advantage of those situations. But look, schools, everybody else is making money off of this. The athletes should be making money off of it too, right? You can't treat sports as a in a professional way where you're making money off of it, and then just say, but let the kids play for free.

John Shull 30:27

I don't I don't disagree with you. However, I'm a traditionalist in I would not have n i L for any you know, would not have it in college. I wouldn't have it in high school. Why?

Nick VinZant 30:39

Why would you not have it in college, like they're making billions off of those people.

John Shull 30:43

Yeah? I mean, listen, I don't really have a good argument. I don't. And once again, I'm not against, you know, I mean, I mean, what? Florida, state, Michigan, you name, the top college football programs and those, those universities make billions.

Nick VinZant 30:59

Yeah, awesome, kids.

John Shull 31:01

I mean, I don't, I don't know if it's a traditionalistic problem. I don't know if it's, I don't know how to root it really, but it's just, I just think like you should be learning, like you should be, you know, going to college. When I think of college, for most of us, it's learning about ourselves, right? It's, it's not being handed $40 million and being a uber rich millionaire by the time you are done. Like it just, I feel like that just creates, or almost sets somebody up for failure before they even, you know, turn 22 years old. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:39

I mean, I can see where you're coming from. I just wouldn't agree with it in any way.

John Shull 31:46

Yeah, like I said, I'm sure it doesn't make sense, and I'm not against athletes making money. Like, as soon as I heard this today, the first thing I thought about for high school students is, man, like, who's gonna who's gonna manage their money their parents? Like, that's just setting up like them and their families for disaster.

Nick VinZant 32:04

Yeah, there's too many ways for the kids to be taken advantage of in that regard. And because they're not, they're minors, and maybe they don't control the money. I think that there's too many ways for the kids to be taken advantage of, but then other people shouldn't be make and look, then other people shouldn't be making money off of it either.

John Shull 32:21

Like, like, I don't know how real this is, but I saw a headline the other day that said, Mark Cuban offering the quarterback of Indiana $40 million to stay at Indiana and not go to the pros. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's insane. Like, if you're that kid, take the money play one more year and then never play football again? Yeah.

Nick VinZant 32:45

I mean, I don't have any problem with the amount of money. Like, people made billions off of those kids for years. I don't feel bad for the colleges or the administrators or anything like that. And like, I get your idea that, okay, you're supposed to be getting an education, but none of those kids

John Shull 33:01

are getting an education. No, I guess the thing, like, I get thinking on it, and it sounds so dumb and so grandpa, but like, if, if they had, like, a financial literacy class that they had to take before getting the money, I would feel better. I just feel like, you hand, you give for a 14 year old $3 million that like, that's just not a good situation for anybody,

Nick VinZant 33:28

yeah, but I would much rather be handed 14 or 3 million, be that age and be handed millions of dollars and wasted then be that age and not be handed millions of dollars. Yeah.

John Shull 33:39

I mean, and I saw kind of an article today. I said there's no difference. Because, you know, I was obviously every This is one of those side issues where you don't really have the middle ground, right? You're either for it or against it.

Nick VinZant 33:50

So again it is the way that I prefer you to say it for it, or again it. I'm not gonna say that for it. Are you for it or again it?

John Shull 33:59

Anyways, they compared it to I can't

Nick VinZant 34:02

listen to you until I know if you're for it or again it. Are you in for it or again it?

John Shull 34:11

I'm reluctantly for it. I'm sorry. What for it? For the record, I hate him. I'm reluctantly for it,

Nick VinZant 34:23

for it. Okay, all right, now proceed. Thank you. I didn't know where you stood.

John Shull 34:27

I hate you and I hate everything about you either again. Me, are you again? Me, yeah, I'm again you, for sure. Okay, thank you. All right, they compared that. It's no different to being a childhood actor to like this, like the amount of responsibility and money and that, that makes sense, but it just feels different and weird. I don't know. It just feels different.

Nick VinZant 34:50

Oh, yeah, but I think that anything new feels different, and old curmudgeons such as yourself are always against anything that's new. What's this new fangled? Oh. Mobile thing. We were made to ride horses.

Speaker 1 35:05

That video, fantastic. And you say it's fake. So this is a two part,

Nick VinZant 35:11

bringing out the extra eyes. Huh? You brought out the extra eyes. I had

John Shull 35:14

to put on my glasses to see what my note was. So this is argument. I Okay, here's a small rant. I ran out of contacts, okay, and it's been a year and a half since I had an eye exam, and they're saying that I have to physically go in and get my eyes re examined before they give me more context, yeah.

Nick VinZant 35:35

I mean, your eyes may have changed. They don't want to give you the wrong prescription. That sounds like that sounds right.

John Shull 35:40

I just, but I have none. Just give me a pair to get me through two weeks.

Nick VinZant 35:43

Then they don't want to give you the wrong thing. Like, they don't want to be liable for potentially giving you the wrong thing and messing up your eyes and then get sued. But, like, that's they have licensing, and they go to medical school and all that kind of stuff for a reason. Like, go get your eyes checked. I'm sorry. Doctors trying to take care of you. What do you mean? He's got to see me before he prescribes me this.

John Shull 36:05

So here, here's my question. Or yeah, I guess the question so outside nine of 11, nine of them,

Nick VinZant 36:12

I got 911 I don't even want to answer this question. I don't want to answer this question outside 911 again, it

John Shull 36:18

what is the most harrowing event to unfold on TV that you had ever seen or been a part of, or had people tell you about,

Nick VinZant 36:31

oh, on TV would probably be the Oklahoma City bombing, because I remember that was kind of the I don't remember anything about it. I just remember, like, they wheeled the TV into the classroom, and I remember being like, what's this? I don't I was pretty young, yeah, probably only in like, third or fourth grade, but I remember seeing like, oh, because I was in Wichita. And Wichita is not very far away. It's like maybe hour and a half, two hours away from Oklahoma City. So it was kind of close by. The most like harrowing thing that I would ever say, that I personally saw was I was in the middle of a mass shooting. One time, working as a news reporter, I was in the middle of a mass shooting. Actually walked out of it. Happened next to my apartment. I actually walked out of the apartment. Turned to my left, and there was three cops there with shotguns pointed at me on horseback.

John Shull 37:34

The horses again, see, that should be the theme of the episode, horses. Well, anyways,

Nick VinZant 37:40

was that horse that you sent measurement? I have no idea what it's about. Oh, it's a 14 hand horse

John Shull 37:46

that that's whose hands crazy? No, so I was referring to the Challenger explosion.

Nick VinZant 37:53

Oh, I don't remember that. When was that? 1986 but you were you even born then?

John Shull 38:00

No, but I said no, of whatever. Regardless, it's the 40th anniversary.

Nick VinZant 38:04

Wait a minute. Your question is about the most is the scariest thing you ever seen on live TV, and your answer is that you didn't see

John Shull 38:11

or I said, we're told about because you ask anybody, you ask your parents, my parents, we know what are some of the craziest things you ever seen? And I swear, it's the moon landing, and it's challenger exploding, and then it's Oklahoma City. It's 911 you know, things like that. But two things came to mind when I thought of Challenger one, what, what I would you got

Nick VinZant 38:34

to think like, I don't want to get into let's just, I'm just going to say this, and then let's just move right on. But January 6 was a pretty crazy thing to see unfold on live TV, like there's people storming the Capitol. Like that was one of those where a lot of people saw that happen live. But anyway, let's just move on from that.

John Shull 38:52

That was, yeah, I stopped after 911 I didn't, didn't keep going regardless. I can't believe it's been 40 years and I was thinking about this, and I kind of really miss just anything space related, like we used to, we used to do missions and things. Now we just have SpaceX where all their rockets explode, yeah.

Nick VinZant 39:16

Like, I'm still just trying to get over the idea that, like, What's the scariest thing you've seen on live TV, and then you just brought up something that you didn't see on live TV. So I can't, kind of mentally get past that,

John Shull 39:29

rewind it because I said that you've seen or that you've been told about happened.

Nick VinZant 39:35

Oh, maybe you might be right, but still i i understood it in a different way. And so I can't get past that. Well, just, I'm a little worried about again, this I'm again, I'm

John Shull 39:44

a little worried about our top five list because you didn't spend, well, you didn't specify if it's, you know, if it's just overall, or if it's related to us a specific year of these events. So I'm curious to see i. What you what you thought for the top five this week?

Nick VinZant 40:03

Oh, I just did top five Winter Olympic sports. What did

Speaker 1 40:07

you do? No, it was fucking Winter Olympics.

Nick VinZant 40:10

You literally not be. We're coming up to the Winter Olympics. Why would it be Summer Olympics? You legit? Just said Olympic sports. That's all it said. I just assumed.

Speaker 1 40:19

Well, good thing I came up with the weather

Nick VinZant 40:23

outside is that it's winter.

John Shull 40:24

I just knew. I knew it. I knew you weren't like specific I knew it.

Nick VinZant 40:28

Why didn't you? Then listen to your gut. I did I have into your

Speaker 1 40:32

instance, okay.

Nick VinZant 40:35

Oh, you got multiple lists. Oh, yeah. Little scratch pad there, yeah, bring out the extra eyes to see it. Oh, extra eyes. Are those reading glasses or full time glasses?

Speaker 1 40:44

Full time glasses wait

Nick VinZant 40:49

on your neck beard that you have growing there? Do you just have a space right in the middle of your chin where no hair grows that you're not going to go ahead and shave and act like other people can't see that? Are you just like, how do you leave that and just have it on both sides, except for this one space on your chin, you got to shave that every day that. No, that has to be shaved every day. I'm like, listen, I understand that some people, such as yourself and myself can't grow hair in certain places, but I'm not going to go out in public with that thing. People wondering, like, what did he shave one part and then give up. That's ridiculous.

John Shull 41:28

It'll be shaved. It'll be shaved tomorrow morning before I go to work, if you really

Nick VinZant 41:33

want should be did you not have to go into work today? Did you work remotely? Because if you actually saw another single person today? That's not acceptable. It's not acceptable.

John Shull 41:43

Yes, I was in the office today. Actually, I got multiple comments on my like, nice shirt I wore today.

Nick VinZant 41:50

Oh, they weren't really giving you a comment. They were secretly staring at you, wondering what was up with your facial hair. And then when you made eye contact, they had to think of something else to say, like, oh, nice shirt.

John Shull 42:04

I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know what to tell you I have a bald spot, like, under my chin. I don't know what to tell you.

Nick VinZant 42:12

You should tell me that you're going to shave that every day from now, you don't have the luxury of not shaving. You. Doesn't that? Dad, you don't. And I'm in that, I'm in, yeah, you can't allow that to happen, like I can grow a mustache in probably maybe six hours. Now, that's not true, but I can grow a mustache really quickly, and I shave it every day, regardless if I'm shaving the rest of things, because that's what has

John Shull 42:38

to be done. That's where you can tell me, that's what men do.

Nick VinZant 42:42

No, that's not what men do. That's what anybody with any sort of courtesy does have some courtesy for the people around you. Are you ready for our top five? Was top five Winter Olympic sports?

John Shull 42:58

Hold on. I need three minutes just to just to get my list together.

Nick VinZant 43:02

Here we'll put your glasses back on so you can actually see it. Do I have enough time to go play ping pong because there's some pollen going on in the other room and it's calling my name? No, there's no way. There is no way you can hear ping pong being played and not want to play ping

John Shull 43:19

pong. I mean, you're probably not right.

Nick VinZant 43:23

Yeah, do you want to go play ping pong right now, just hearing the background noise of ping pong in my house?

John Shull 43:29

Not really, no, you're thinking about like me. All right, my number five Winter Olympic sport is hockey.

Nick VinZant 43:39

Oh, okay. I mean, great sport. I like to watch hockey, but during the Winter Olympics, it's kind of just like I don't want to watch it's, it's too regular. I want to see the stuff I don't usually see. So I would not put hockey on my list.

John Shull 43:53

See my my argument is, is I love seeing the smaller nations like Finland, Sweden, battle Canada, the United States. I love seeing China, what, you know, battle the United States, and it's Olympic hockey. They play in a bigger rink than they do in the NHL. And it's just, it's just, it's awesome, like, I love, I love the nation. You know, the nation feel to the Olympic hockey games, to Olympic hockey.

Nick VinZant 44:22

Can I give you my rant about the Olympics?

John Shull 44:26

I mean, did I have a choice?

Nick VinZant 44:28

Yeah, well, I mean, no, not really. I would probably do it anyway. Yeah, my rant about the Olympics is, I don't understand how the United States doesn't at least get a bronze medal in every single event. With all the people and all the money that we have, we should place in every single event, every single one,

John Shull 44:52

I mean, but to be fair, to be fair, you could go back in, you know, most of the. Sports, where, the, where the, where the, you know, first, second and third, even if it's a different country represented, a lot of times they train here or they have lived here for years, like someone from Romania usually doesn't still live in Romania, though they, you know, play or compete under the Romanian flag.

Nick VinZant 45:20

I still think that we should have people due to our sheer size and our resources. We should place in every single event, Winter Olympics, Summer Olympics, the US because of the size and money we have. I don't understand how we don't place in every single event.

John Shull 45:39

You're once again, I You're not wrong by any but, but we don't like it. Just it is what it is.

Nick VinZant 45:46

Is what it is. My number five is ski jumping. Oh, that's a fun sport to watch. The only reason I don't put it higher is because, after you see the first seed of, like, five to 10 times, kind of like, okay, I got it. Like, guys gonna Oh, did he go farther? Like, you really don't know if they went farther or not. Yeah.

John Shull 46:06

I mean, it's, I don't know. It's definitely thrilling, but I don't, doesn't make my top five, not even in my top like, 50% Okay, wow. So my number four is speed skating.

Nick VinZant 46:23

Oh, okay, okay.

John Shull 46:26

I love speed skate. I in particular, I love short track speed skating. Where they go, you know, they do, like the 30 laps around the little rink, like the little the little course, and people like Anton Apollo Ono, I think, made it really. Made it really famous here in America.

Nick VinZant 46:44

It's a sport where you it's a sport where it seems like anything could happen. Anything I have no idea what's going to happen in

John Shull 46:51

this sport. It's, I'm looking forward to it this year. Can't wait.

Nick VinZant 46:55

Speed Skating is my number three. Okay, my number four is the biathlon

John Shull 47:01

that that was, like, my first runner up, my first, you know, honorable mention was the biathlon. Because if you think about it, the biathlon probably is the most athletic winter game.

Nick VinZant 47:13

I half the sport is just standing there shooting a gun,

John Shull 47:17

well, isn't it? But no, I thought it was cross country skiing, and like, having to be accurate with with the gun,

Nick VinZant 47:24

no, yeah, yeah. And half the sport is just standing there shooting the gun. Like, I don't think that you can say it's the most athletic. Half of it is standing.

John Shull 47:33

I don't think it's half standing. I think you're there for like, 20 seconds.

Nick VinZant 47:37

It's the biathlon. By means, two, right? I think you do, you ski and you shoot. Half of the sport is shooting and half is skiing. By I do. I go buy Athlon is three sports, whatever. Decathlon is 10, the pentathlon is five. You want me to keep going with this? No, I don't.

John Shull 47:54

All right, my my number three is the luge.

Nick VinZant 47:59

Oh, I'm just, like, one ahead of you with each sport. But my number two is all of those. I put bobsled, luge, skeleton, I put all of those in the same thing, and I put that at number two. That's pretty cool.

John Shull 48:15

Yeah, it's, I mean, they're going, what, 80 miles an hour, like, that's, that's in insane. I can't even imagine

Nick VinZant 48:23

that's like, I would not do that, like you're gonna go 80 miles an hour, and the only thing separating you from rock hard ice is this small piece of metal and plastic.

John Shull 48:35

Yeah, it's, I described it to somebody as, like, being on an out of control water slide.

Nick VinZant 48:42

Oh yeah, that seems a lot like what it is.

Speaker 1 48:45

That's why I don't go on water slides.

Nick VinZant 48:49

I mean, is that really the reason you don't know?

John Shull 48:51

I don't like when you get going fast and you like do this where you go to one side and then all the way back to the other. And like, I've never enjoyed them. I don't enjoy water slides one bit.

Nick VinZant 49:03

I don't really like anything that I feel out of control in I don't mind going fast because, I mean, you know, like your boy's out there on his mountain bike going pretty quick, but I'm in control of that. Like, I don't really ever want to be going fast and out of control. Those are two things I don't want to be

John Shull 49:22

doing, ah, that's a that's a bad mixture. All right, so my number two, I went with curling.

Nick VinZant 49:29

What's your number one? Then, God, you're gonna say something. I really like to see figure skating. I don't understand figure skating at all. I don't understand figure skating at all. I don't get it. I'm just like, Okay,

John Shull 49:44

are you assuming my number one is figure skating?

Nick VinZant 49:49

I don't know what else it could be,

John Shull 49:53

because my number one is figure skating. Is it? It is I'm not even ashamed of why. Because. Because, I mean, two main reasons. One, it's the only time of the year that I, or I'll say every four years, where I remotely give a shit about figure skating like I just I don't, and I think it's the second reason is, I think it's incredibly difficult to do what they do. I don't think they get enough credit, but you know, it's, it's and to be honest, it's one of those sports where you start watching at seven, and before you know what, it's 11 o'clock, like, they just, time just seems to fly by when you're watching figure skating.

Nick VinZant 50:35

My problem with figure skating is I don't understand the out outfits that they have. Like, the whole time I'm just wondering, like, Who made that? Where did you get that? Like, that's I just, I can't never get past the logistics of figure skating uniforms. Like, where did they, where did you get it? Who made that? Like, how much did you pay for that thing? Where did you buy that? And that's all I'm thinking about the whole time during figure skating, is like, where did they get that?

John Shull 51:05

Not the fact that they literally get one, maybe two attempts, you know, to nail it, to be almost perfect, or that they're doing, you know, 30, you know, revolutions in a run, or anything. He just cares about the outfits, right?

Nick VinZant 51:22

I The athletic prowess is impressive. It's incredible the things that they do. But I'm just distracted by thinking about, like, where did you get that outfit?

John Shull 51:32

I'm curious to know what is your number one, curling.

Nick VinZant 51:35

Curling is the best sport in the Olympics. Curling is, to me, by far the best sport in the Olympics. It's fascinating, way harder than you think it is, too

John Shull 51:45

it is, yes, I mean, obviously I had it at my number two. I really enjoy it. I don't think it's the most fascinating sport of the Olympics, but it's damn awesome.

Nick VinZant 51:56

You don't know anything about it. You don't know anything about it. How long is the thing? Do you know? How long it is from where they throw it to where it stops? Do you know how long

John Shull 52:05

I really take a guess? Don't try to look it up. No, I wanted to make a your mom joke because that's what you would have done to me. But I'm not going to be that

Nick VinZant 52:12

untactful to you. Oh, that's good. My mom's dead. No, I don't know how long it is. Why would you make a your mom joke when my mom, my mother's dead. I didn't make a joke about I got one too. You were going to you would have said, my dad, no

John Shull 52:27

matter, you were still gonna assault my mother. I never would do that.

Nick VinZant 52:32

Would never do but anyway, how long do you think that thing is?

John Shull 52:35

But the mom joke you said to me earlier, your mom's alive. It's different, which, by the way, I've shown to at least three people, and they all say that you're a great friend. And I said that, how's that being a great friend?

Nick VinZant 52:46

Oh, it was a pretty good your mom joke. There's not a lot of times when you can still throw in a your mom joke, as people's moms get older. But this was a very good your mom's joke. I'll read it. Actually, I still have it. No, let's see. Where is it. Oh, wait,

Speaker 1 53:03

I hope you still have it. Sorry.

Nick VinZant 53:05

I'm going through all the memes that I sent you about how bad? Oh, yeah, we were talking about the lions, and I said, I can't believe, listen, I find this fascinating, because the Lions have not gone to a Super Bowl in more than 100 years. I really thought the only thing that could suck that long, that hard was your mom. Oh, that's a pretty good your mom joke. That's a pretty good your mom joke. If you would have hit me with that, even though my mother has passed, I'd be like,

John Shull 53:39

that's pretty good. Yeah, I would never do that, though, because your mom has passed, I would never do that.

Nick VinZant 53:44

Would you have anything in your honorable mention? No, I really just want to leave that was a really good your mom joke, though, that was a good your mom that was for sure, like, and I set it up and you didn't. I don't know if you saw it

Speaker 1 53:58

coming. Course, I did. Your

Nick VinZant 54:01

mom saw me coming. I'll tell you that. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best Olympic sports, I've never understood figure skating, like I just I don't get it. Curling, though. Oh, incredible. I.

The Olympics Newest Sport: Ski Mountaineering with Olympian Cam Smith

Ski Mountaineering is the only new sport at the 2026 Winter Olympics and Team USA Olympian Cam Smith has a chance to win the sports first Gold Medal. We talk what makes Ski Mountaineering special, what it's like competing in a new Olympic Sport and the 2026 Winter Olympics.

Then, it's Civics and Odysseys vs. Cybertrucks and Tacomas as we countdown the Top 5 Worst Car Names.

00:00: Introducing Olympian Cam Smith

01:11: What is Ski Mountaineering

05: 19: Competing in a New Olympic Sport

06:47: Getting Started in Ski Mountaineering

08:59: The 2026 Winter Olympics

10:20: Ski Mountaineering Crashes

15:07: The Future of Ski Mountaineering

18:15: Pointless

38:34: To5 Worst Car Names

⁠Contact the Show⁠

⁠Cam Smith Instagram⁠

Interview with Ski Mountaineering Olympian Cam Smith

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode ski mountaineering and bad car names,

Cam Smith 0:21

it's short, it's fast, it's intense, and there's a lot to it. Yeah, I was just hooked on the mode of travel of it was really cool to be able to access the mountains and access the high alpine and access wild places in the winter time when normally it's really hard to get around. For sure, yes and yes, yeah, we're all starting together and racing together. And that's why kind of a head to head, uphill, downhill and transitions become so exciting, because the race can really get turned upside down in an instant.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because this Olympics, he will be competing in a brand new sport. This is ski mountaineering. Olympian cam Smith, so what is ski mountaineering?

Cam Smith 1:13

Ski mountaineering, or you'll hear it called skimo pretty frequently, is the only new sport in the 2026, Olympics, and it's essentially skiing without chair lifts. It's short, it's fast, it's intense, and there's a lot to it.

Nick VinZant 1:27

Is it a technical sport? Is it a pure, like physical endurance kind of sport, like, what?

Cam Smith 1:33

Yeah, that's the thing. Is someone competing in skimo has to be able to do a bit of everything, right? You need to be able to literally run up the mountain with your skis on your feet, and you have to be able to race back down, racing with gravity, like you see the Alpine racers do in the Olympics. And then you're also having to transition your gear between uphill mode downhill mode, or sections that are too steep to ski up, and you put your skis on your back. So there's kind of these f1 pit stops almost mixed into this endurance and gravity based sport. So yeah, it's a bit of everything.

Nick VinZant 2:08

It kind of sounds like the triathlon, but with skiing, where you're doing this, then you're changing gear, then you're doing this, then you're changing gear, then you're doing this. Is that right or am I completely wrong on that,

Cam Smith 2:22

yeah, yeah, I think that's a good track to think of it. And then the transitions are probably even more a part of our sport because we're doing them so frequently. So triathlon. I mean, you make your your switch from swim to bike and from bike to run, and those are key parts the ratio, but we're making transitions constantly throughout uphill, downhill, in between, all over the place. So yeah, the racing is really dynamic. I mean, people might be stronger uphill, downhill, and then these transitions, just like totally throw throw a wrench into things, and the lead changes frequently, and there's a lot of back and forth, and no lead is ever safe. And it's really dynamic to race, and it's exciting to watch, so I'm pumped for people to see it in February.

Nick VinZant 3:04

You know, you mentioned this is the first time this has been in the Olympics. Has this sport been sitting there for a while, or has this kind of just come up out of nowhere,

Cam Smith 3:13

like where skiing came from in the US comes a lot from what's called the 10th Mountain Division, which was a specialized group of soldiers in World War Two that the US had trained up as part of their their military, which many of the other European countries essentially already had a version of this. It was basically just like a mountain fighting troops. So they trained and rock climbing, and they trained in skiing, and what looks a lot like ski, more about country skiing now. And then they also trained as soldiers, because the Alps were such a key battleground in World War One and World War Two. Then a lot of those veterans then came back from Europe and said, Hey, this skiing thing is great. Like, check out this technology. We should probably start some ski areas. Like, people should try this, check it out. And that's kind of how skiing gained popularity in the US. And so, like, really, when you think about it from that perspective, back country skiing and skimo are really the roots of the sport. And then, like, as we built chair lifts and you were able to just ski down, and people are like, Wow, it's really great to just do this, that kind of has become skiing as we know it currently. But yeah, it has that sort of historic sense in it. And then from a competitive standpoint, there's been international competitions and a World Cup for about 30 years now. And then. I mean, when you have a World Cup of a sport, you look to the Olympics as kind of the the holy grail of like, has your sport made the big time or not? So, I mean, they've been working on this for a long time of trying to get the sport in. Like, I know it was a conversation at least as far back as 2006 like someone had just told me that that like, Oh, I was racing in 2006 and I remember filling out a form or an interest thing of some kind, saying, like, Yeah, I'd love to race in the Olympics one day, and it's a long battle to get in of. Being recognized by the IOC, getting the local, local organizing committee and host country on board and fit, like, yeah, fitting all these parameters, essentially. So there was talk of it joining in 2022 but it didn't quite make the cut for that games. And then here we are for 2026 so

Nick VinZant 5:19

what's it like to be competing in the new Olympic sport?

Cam Smith 5:25

Yeah, it'll be really fascinating just to have everything be new and historic, just by virtue of it happening, right? Like every gold medalist will be the first gold medalist, every silver medalist will be the first silver medalist, like everyone on the start line will be part of the sports birth in the games. Like, it'll be really exciting to show it to the world for the first time. You know,

Nick VinZant 5:49

do people feel an extra pressure? Like, okay, yeah, we're at the Olympics. That's a lot of pressure. But we're a new sport. We've got to really kind of show out, so to speak, to make sure we come back and,

Cam Smith 5:59

yeah, I mean, in the sense of, like, do people feel that it's like there's only a few of us, right? Like there's only 36 athletes racing in the games. But I think of it more as, like my partner, Ana, and I, that are racing, are more just carrying the torch for this much broader movement. Like the The team worked really hard to qualify and to get here and and and lots of people played a role in getting the team qualified, and the sports growing really fast in the US and worldwide, in these mountain locations. And it's just exciting to be a part of that. And really, we're just kind of carrying the torch for all those people. So I don't really feel pressure in the sense of like, oh, it's the first one. People better like it. I'm thinking of it more of like, let's just do what we do and perform, and I think people will enjoy seeing what they see on TV.

Nick VinZant 6:47

How'd you get into it? So I

Cam Smith 6:49

started with a race called the Grand Traverse in the town in Colorado that I live in. So there's this race that starts in one one town called Crested Butte skis to the other called Aspen. It's this 40 mile race that you do in teams of two, and it starts in the middle of the night to help mitigate the avalanche danger. And you just traverse across the mountains and ski from this one town to the other. And, yeah, I was just hooked on the mode of travel. Of it was really cool to be able to access the mountains and access the high alpine and access wild places in the winter time when normally it's really hard to get around. And then it was great to be able to ski back down instead of, instead of walking or running like you climb these peaks, and then you get to, yeah, go skiing to get back to where you started. So it's just a really cool way to move in the mountains. And then the racing was just an extension of that.

Nick VinZant 7:41

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. Is it better to be good at going up or good at going down?

Cam Smith 7:51

Oh, man, you spend more of your time going up, so you can probably make more of a difference there, but it's a lot sexier to be good at going down. So it depends on what you're going for, but is

Nick VinZant 8:02

going down taking time off? Like, do you feel, like, okay, I can take a break going down, or is it? Oh no, that's just as hard as going up in a different way.

Cam Smith 8:11

Yeah, that's a good question. In the Olympic disciplines, we're skiing on these groomed ski slopes, and so there's not a huge physical output, but you are trying really hard to execute those turns super well and make sure that you're you're gaining time on the competitors and not losing any through those skiing those gates. So there's a lot of mental focus in that element. But then in the individual discipline where you're skiing off piste on ungroomed snow and wild places. Then a lot of times people hit their max heart rate, for example, on the downhills and not on the uphills, because you're working so hard to kind of absorb those G forces and all the chatter under your skis and like, just the super high muscular output to the downhill so it kind of depends on the discipline a little bit.

Nick VinZant 8:59

When you look at the venue you'll be competing at, is there something unique about it? Does it stand out and have unique challenges to it? Or is it more that's a pretty traditional competition venue for this,

Cam Smith 9:15

yeah, for the Olympic course in Borneo, Italy. The the course itself will be kind of wide open for the first climb, which will be really nice for passing. And then kind of its defining characteristic is these big parabolic turns on the downhill, which also make it really easy to pass. On the downhill, it creates more space around the gates for athletes to go around each other. So I think it'll make for really good racing, in the sense of, it'll be wide open, and people will be able to make their moves and play their cards and show their strength. So I think that's kind of the defining quality of the course, to me, as that openness, which I think will make a really good spectate.

Nick VinZant 9:56

Oh, so it's a shotgun start. It's not a timed you. Everybody goes through it. You're all racing together at one time in the downhill. Does that cause that? Seems like that could cause some problems,

Cam Smith 10:08

for sure, yes, and yes, yeah. We're all starting together and racing together. And that's why kind of a head to head uphill, downhill and transitions become so exciting, because the race can really get turned upside down in an instant. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 10:20

I mean, are there crashes for sure?

Cam Smith 10:23

Yeah, and we're elbowing each other and like, yeah, trying to make passes and all those different sections of the race, like, it's yeah, it's competitive and it's hard, and anything can happen.

Nick VinZant 10:34

So does the downhill just get chaotic at times,

Cam Smith 10:39

for sure? Yeah, and that's where that transition helps a lot, like, if you can go from uphill to downhill quicker, then you can get further ahead of all that traffic and and maybe have a more clear line back to the the bottom of the course. So, yeah, it's all, it's all very strategic. And, yeah, it's, it's gonna be exciting.

Nick VinZant 11:01

How many seconds separate a good transition from a bad transition?

Cam Smith 11:06

Yeah, that's interesting, too. So, I mean, let's exclusively look at the uphill the downhill transition, for example. So like skins off. So you're you're locking both of your boots into downhill mode. You're locking both your bindings into downhill mode. You're pushing both of those feet into position, reaching forward, grabbing both skins, pulling them off. You got to fold them up, Storm Away, grab your poles, and you can go. And that takes a high level athlete probably six seconds to do all that. And it like, if you're doing this recreationally, it can be, like, five to 10 minutes, because a lot of times people are, you know, stopping at the top for a picnic or take some photos, right? You take a little time, yeah, for sure. So like, if the base is kind of six seconds, like, someone can do a five second one, and maybe, like, gain that edge going into the downhill or someone might not be able to pull their skin all the way off right away, the skin that's on the bottom of the ski, and add a second and then kind of lose a position. But you can also, like, totally drop the skins, or, like, miss your binding when you go to transition it. And it can go to being like, a 15 second process instead of five or six. So, I mean, those, like one seconds definitely make a difference, but you can also totally flub it and like, yeah, lose the pack and the race is totally changed again. So yeah, it's, it's unique, for sure.

Nick VinZant 12:37

Yeah, if you blow a transition, are you done?

Cam Smith 12:40

Not necessarily. I mean, yeah, the mixed relays in total still takes about 30 minutes, so you can make that up over the course of those next climbs and descents, but it is really, really hard to do, because everyone's pretty much the same level uphill, pretty much the same level downhill, and these transitions really make a big difference. So it's hard to come back from, but if someone is on on an exceptional level, then yeah, for sure, you can can make up for it, but you definitely don't want to put yourself in that

Nick VinZant 13:10

position for you, like, What part are you best at? What part are you worst at?

Cam Smith 13:15

Probably the uphill for me is where I have the most success, and then these transitions and like high pressure situations, like I tend to do well when it's chaotic and snowy and windy and there's other people kind of all around me and stepping on my poles and doing this and that, if I tend to do better with the chaos a little bit,

Nick VinZant 13:37

what country Is ski mountaineering the biggest in Yeah.

Cam Smith 13:41

So the the French team and the Spanish team are probably the two, and the Swiss are probably the three nations with the best Olympic athletes in general. There's a lot of exceptions to that rule out there and a lot of really strong athletes that will be out there. Italy has a really rich history in this sport, but just not necessarily in these disciplines. And then all the the ALP and Pyrenees nations. So Austria is really good, like all the Yeah, Scandinavian countries. But yeah, I would say that France, Spain, Switzerland, will probably be the ones that will be garnering the most medals at the end of the day.

Nick VinZant 14:21

Do we have a shot?

Cam Smith 14:24

I think we do. Yeah. So we were ranked 13th going into the final World Cup the qualification period, and 12 teams would qualify. But then my teammate, Anna and I won that race, and that was on home soil, so you often race better at home when everyone else has to travel over to you, and not every other team was was fielding a full strength relay team at that point of the year, either, because some of them had already clinched their Olympic spot. So there's a few caveats there, but we did win the race, so I think certainly we showed that day that on our rate day, we've gotten a lot better. And we're definitely coming and ready to make some noise. And I think on our best day, we're for sure, yeah, contending for medals.

Nick VinZant 15:07

Are there technical aspects to it, like, do you ever use ice axes, that kind of stuff?

Cam Smith 15:12

Yeah, good question. So in the traditional disciplines of the sport, so we call it the individual race. This is the more in wild mountains, off the ski resorts event where you're climbing up and skiing down in in wild places, and on technical ridges, on peaks, cool hours, all that good stuff. Yeah, you might use crampons. You might use ice axes. You might have roped sections where you're traveling on a rope in a more exposed area. And it's it's definitely a wild mountain sport. And then the Olympic disciplines are these more short, fast, competitive ones. But the rumor is that for 2030 and thus then for 2034 that the individual will be added then. So this is kind of the taste everyone will get to start with. And then I think what people will see in the future is athletes running up these ridges to summit mountains, wearing spandex and going head to head on the uphill and then, yeah, racing down these like exposed mountain faces. And I think it's going to be really cool once, once we get a foothold in the Olympics and continue to build in the next, next few quads of the sky's really the limit for the sport, I think it'll be a really good spectacle.

Nick VinZant 16:23

So, you know, obviously, I think that anytime you're doing a sport, and you kind of kind of got to make it for TV, right? You got to get the TV part of it is the part that you talked about, where you're kind of going more up the ridges. Is that the truer aspect of the sport?

Cam Smith 16:39

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's what gets people into the sport in the first place, is they want to go skiing. They want to go to these cool places. And the Olympic disciplines are just kind of isolating all the skills of that, so these transitions, uphills, downhills, and trying to just put it all in this super condensed format. But yeah, I mean, you could say pure schema, pure ski mountaineering is more out in these wild places. But again, I think there's an Olympic future there too. It's just it's harder to organize, harder to televise, definitely still possible to do both those things. And so we're optimistic that this is just the start. And in the future, you'll see more and more of us and more more of these disciplines and and these races happening in more and more places. That's all

Nick VinZant 17:24

the questions I got. If people want to find out more, where can they find you that kind of stuff?

Cam Smith 17:29

Yeah, I'm on Instagram at cam from CB. CB is in Crested Butte. That's the town I live in, in Colorado. And then same with USA scheme. Oh, my race partner, Anna Gibson is on Instagram as well. I don't know her handle off the top my head, to be honest. But yeah, you can check us all out there, and then you'll see us wherever you get your Olympic news and TV too. So yeah,

Nick VinZant 17:51

I want to thank cam so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. And if you want to see what ski mountaineering looks like, the YouTube version of this interview is now live. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. If you see a man that regularly wears a hat, what do you think the chances are he's already he's either bald or balding?

John Shull 18:30

I'm gonna say it's a good three quarters, 75% that he's bald or balding.

Nick VinZant 18:36

I feel like hats used to be more popular when we were growing up, and now I feel like they're mainly used for cover up the bald or the bald ink.

John Shull 18:47

What a random question to ask, by the way.

Nick VinZant 18:50

I was just wondering, because I saw a big group of guys wearing hats, and I thought to myself, I wonder how many of those guys are going bald? Listen, can you explain why you got a haircut like Biff from the military,

John Shull 19:01

I don't, I don't pay 5080, $100 like you do. Mr. News man, to get

Nick VinZant 19:06

your I go to, I get a $22 haircut. Bullshit. You do $22 right? Because I go to the guy, he doesn't speak any English. He only does like one haircut. He does a three on the sides and a four at the top. That's how what he knows how to do. I'm not sure if he has a license or not, but he's there. He's reliable, and he's done in probably about 10 minutes. My opinion on hair is as long as it's there. I'm not complaining about it. I don't care what the haircut looks like. Is it there? Is that a possibility? It's going to grow back? Did you not do any permanent damage to my scalp follicles, then I don't care what the haircut looks like.

John Shull 19:45

In college, I used to do a zero on my head, and I look like Uncle Fester. So that was, that was the worst haircut I ever did, and I gave it to myself.

Nick VinZant 19:53

So, oh, I couldn't see you being a good like a man who looks good bald. I don't think I. Be either what is happening at your house?

John Shull 20:05

Oh, can you hear that? That's my brand new washer and dryer scenes. They both died on the same day at the same time. Is it terrible? I can stop the load. My wife thought it was appropriate to start doing laundry while I'm recording.

Nick VinZant 20:20

Oh my gosh, you this is again, you got to put your foot down, right? You're a pushover. I am putting my foot down. Don't do it. Don't do it. I'm doing it. You can't stop a washing machine once you get started like that.

Unknown Speaker 20:33

I do it has a pause button. Oh well, that's

Nick VinZant 20:37

just a way that's going to throw off the whole schedule. I have a schedule when I do washing and drying like timed out, I got 50 minutes

John Shull 20:45

completely electronic. It's incredible. I can do everything from my phone with my washer and dryer. It's incredible.

Nick VinZant 20:53

I mean, that's great. Are you probably that? But how much extra Did you pay to be able to press a button on your phone while you're in your house and not have to walk downstairs to do it. Because to me, if that, if somebody said, Hey, you can have this app that will control your thing for you, it's an extra $2 I'd be like, No, you probably paid an extra 300 bucks for that.

John Shull 21:14

But doesn't make any sense, because it's quite economical and helps with monitoring the loads.

Nick VinZant 21:20

Oh, see, that's just a lazy man. That's just a lazy man talking, oh, I'm too like, I can't, I can't go downstairs. What do you need to do? You have that doesn't make any sense to me at whatsoever. I don't you paid extra for this. I'm getting upset. I'm getting upset.

John Shull 21:38

First off, you act like I had anything to do with this, my wife, my wife ordered this for you. It's not I didn't pay extra. I don't think so. I don't know. I don't actually know how much they cost.

Nick VinZant 21:52

You probably have a subscription service that you've now signed up for, and you're going to get a bill that's probably set to automatic renewals for the yearly rate, and you're going to pay $100 a month and $100 a month for the dryer. To do this, you have to go downstairs and manually put the laundry in and manually take it out, and then put it into the other one and take it out. There's no reason for this to have any sort of interface with it. You have to do everything manually so that you can look at your phone and know, Oh, thank God. I know I've got five minutes left on the wash cycle. It's a waste of time. You're getting suckered by the man.

John Shull 22:29

I mean, it's actually beneficial, and I think it makes us more effective.

Nick VinZant 22:33

How you still have to go down there. You can't just remember, like, oh look, it says 50 minutes on the wash I'll come back in 50 minutes.

John Shull 22:43

I mean, no one cares, and no one cares about this.

Nick VinZant 22:46

I could go on. I'm much more interested in this than your haircut story. They're, they're,

John Shull 22:51

they're smart appliances. So for one, I can put in any kind of load I want, and a balance itself, itself out. I don't have to try. No, we had washer, a washer and dryer from the 90s.

Nick VinZant 23:03

I mean, my washer and dryer is quite old as well, but it's just a washer and dryer like it'll balance itself. Why don't you just learn how to do it correctly?

John Shull 23:12

It won't balance. Trust me, it will. It won't Balance. Balance itself out.

Nick VinZant 23:17

I think what this is is that smart appliances create dumb people you're hiding down the road of not being able to even wash your own body.

John Shull 23:28

I mean, I already can't reach half the places. Um,

Nick VinZant 23:31

this is what I mean, because you're the kind of guy you're being lazy. I need the washer and dryer to tell me what I'm supposed to do at all times. Put the what? Put the t shirt on the left side and put the socks on the right side. Would you like? It's all fake. That thing isn't doing anything, but that it wasn't doing before. I bet that that those people at the washing machine company have a picture of your face at their store laughing at you like I suckered this guy. I told him this was the newest technology. He's the same damn thing we've had since the 70s. Sold them the app for an extra $200 a year. To be

John Shull 24:04

fair, once again, I didn't have any I didn't have anything to do with it. I wasn't even here when they got delivered. Okay, so I have no idea

Nick VinZant 24:11

it reflects. It reflects on you. It reflects on you.

John Shull 24:15

Listen, can we talk about the weather? No, it's supposed to be negative 32 degrees with wind chill on Friday in Michigan. That's Antarctica temperatures. What is happening to our country? Are we just, are we just gonna freeze over? It's hell froze over. Probably.

Nick VinZant 24:33

I mean, I'm sorry, it's gonna be a little cold outside. Little Johnny's gonna have to, like, well, you're gonna have to wash your mix too close, a little cold on your toes, fingers.

John Shull 24:42

Said, I'm saying that's that's unnecessary, and you don't need to do it.

Nick VinZant 24:46

I'm not afraid of negative 32 I'll be outside playing basketball.

John Shull 24:49

I didn't say I was afraid of it. It's just that's pretty damn cold.

Nick VinZant 24:55

I mean, that is really cold. I've only been in like negative well, is that the cold, or is that the wind chill?

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Oh, that's with the windshield.

Nick VinZant 25:03

Oh, get out of here with that

Speaker 1 25:04

crap, baby, my balls are bigger than yours.

Nick VinZant 25:08

I'm not worried about the wind chill. I'm not worried about the what it feels like temperature. That's an excuse. That's an excuse for you to try to get some more sympathy. What's the real temperature? I don't care what the windshield is. Don't care about it. That doesn't count, right? That's an asterisk that you're trying to throw on there.

John Shull 25:27

It's gonna be negative 12 come

Nick VinZant 25:30

8am Oh, who cares? That's easy all day. Okay?

Speaker 1 25:35

I mean, it's still cool. Like, I don't know, I Oh

Nick VinZant 25:38

yeah, it's really cool. It's really cold. I have actually been in like, Alberta. This is part of Canada. I mean, it's the province in Alberta. I was skiing, and it was negative 45 that was really cold. I was like, oh, history. Should go inside. That's I'm not talking about the weather. I'm not doing it. Talked about your haircut, your washer and dryer and the weather.

John Shull 26:03

See, what you don't know is I have a secret group of fans that I we're just ticking off boxes, and so far, I've been very successful on this podcast. Well, that talks about the things you don't want to things that just make your skin crawl.

Nick VinZant 26:19

Oh, yeah, like people who pay extra money for apps for their washing machine, like you did,

John Shull 26:24

I don't think first of I don't think it was extra money. I think I'm sure it is. I don't I don't know. It doesn't matter. Let's get shout outs, please. Let's see Carlene Davis, Nolan, Duffy, Liliana, Ochoa Barton. Love Mabel Klein, don't see a lot of mabel's anymore,

Nick VinZant 26:43

a lot of Nolan's. Either that I might, that might be the only I only know one Nolan. I know one Nolan I know. I mean,

John Shull 26:54

I can only think of one, and he's five. So, okay. Clifton Berger, Louise, Louisiana, Louisa, Bentley, Jewel, Norman, Marina, Bullock and Lindsay Ford,

Nick VinZant 27:11

I generally give you about 75% chance that you're pronouncing the names correctly. I feel like this one was probably closer to the 25 to 50% Oh, but I polled the audience about the balding question. Zero 25% of people said all right. 14% of people said 25% chance or less. 30% of people say 25 to 50% chance. 47% of people said 50 to 75 and 9% said 75 to 100 so basically, I think that the game is up. People know that if you're wearing a hat, you're probably bald or balding.

John Shull 27:52

I mean, I would say, once again, 75% is probably the right number. Like I wore hats. I'm not balding. I just like hats.

Nick VinZant 27:59

I'm just saying that I think the majority of people wearing a hat are probably bald or balding.

John Shull 28:06

Yeah, I would, I would agree with you three, three quarters or so. Okay, okay, okay, all right. You ready for some more just I'll throw some random things out. You just give me your first thoughts. Okay, I got some real good ones for you here. Okay, garden gnomes.

Nick VinZant 28:26

I like them. I'm okay with garden gnomes, right? I think they really add something to a lawn if done appropriately. Now you can't have a ton of them.

Unknown Speaker 28:34

Anderson Cooper,

Nick VinZant 28:37

oh, is he still doing that? Yeah, I don't like, what's the point? Is still doing that? I don't understand people, if I made a lot of money, you would never hear from me again, like you're still doing that. Because I you, you work in news. I used to work in news, and was one of the reporters who kind of like, you go all over the country, You're never home. Like, man, you're still doing that. What for?

John Shull 29:05

Because I think he makes 10s of millions of dollars per year doing it.

Nick VinZant 29:10

But what's the deal like at some point? Like, what? At what point do you if you have $50 million what are you trying to buy with that, that you can't afford, if you're making what he's making a year. What are you trying to buy that you cannot afford? Like, what do you what are you doing this for?

John Shull 29:27

I think some would argue that, you know, it's, it's all greed, right? It's, it's, you don't want to stop because if you can get more, get more.

Nick VinZant 29:35

Oh, I would imagine that they're probably really, what they like is the fame and the recognition, like that's filling some hole inside of you.

Speaker 1 29:45

All right. Anyways, Matt Damon, I

Nick VinZant 29:52

don't really know if I have any thoughts about Matt Damon. I still wonder if he really wrote Good Will Hunting.

Speaker 1 29:58

I. Supposed to be one word. Just the first thing that comes to your

Nick VinZant 30:03

mind to say, like, I don't know one word. It's terrible. One word that's not, that's that's not one word,

Speaker 1 30:10

okay, one sentence, one phrase. He's all right. You are legitimately the worst legit.

Nick VinZant 30:20

I don't know what like you want me to then you tell me next time. Well, you tell me what you want me to say. And I was No, no,

John Shull 30:27

no, I'll give you another and let's, let's see what you do with this.

Nick VinZant 30:31

You're not, you're not tickling my pickle here, right? Okay, you got they're just not. They're not things I think about all the time, right? I'm not really concerned about garden gnomes. I'm not really concerned about Matt Damon, okay, all right. Well, this one, you don't think about it all probably, but I'm not liking what's on your menu,

Unknown Speaker 30:46

goat skin, condoms.

Nick VinZant 30:49

I don't really understand what the difference is.

Unknown Speaker 30:54

I just think it's like,

Nick VinZant 30:55

I'm not paying extra for it. I know that, like, I'm a married man with two kids. I haven't bought a condom in probably 15 years.

Speaker 1 31:04

I just, I just didn't even realize those were a thing. So that's,

Nick VinZant 31:08

that's like, supposedly the fancy one.

John Shull 31:12

But like, what makes, did you goat skin better than regular?

Nick VinZant 31:16

It feels better.

Speaker 1 31:19

I don't know. I don't know why you asking me.

Nick VinZant 31:22

I've been married for too long. I don't like I if you could tell me whatever price the condoms were, and I would have no idea if you told me the condoms were like, 12 for 599 I would say, oh, okay, if you told me they were $500 now I'd be like, Wow. Speaking of totally shocked, no matter what number you gave me, speaking of your wedding,

John Shull 31:42

can I tell you a story that just popped in my mind that you don't care about, but I feel the need to tell you, it's about my wedding. It's not about your wedding, but it's about where we were for your wedding.

Nick VinZant 31:53

Oh, okay, Sedona, by

John Shull 31:55

the way, Sedona, so my wife and I went kind of rock climbing sight, saying whatever they have, the red

Nick VinZant 32:00

rocks there, you did not go rock climbing. Whatever we climbed. We climbed up some rocks that were did not. No, you didn't. You walked around, whatever.

John Shull 32:10

Okay, that's not the point of the story. The point of the story is, I took a photo of this rock come to find out, one of my school dads, one of my good friends up here in Michigan, five years later, took the same photo from the same angle of the same rock.

Nick VinZant 32:27

I mean, it's a prop, yeah? Like, that's

John Shull 32:29

incredible. I'm shocked by that. That was insane.

Nick VinZant 32:32

I'm sure that, like, people take, think, like, when you go tourist area, people take the same pictures. This is awful. Do you know how many people have the same pictures of like, Moraine Lake, which is in Canada, any tourist spot people are going to have the same picture of it like, Hey, wait, you went to Paris and saw the Eiffel Tower and took a picture?

John Shull 32:51

Nope. No way. Yeah. Why are you? You're always so negative. Why can't it just be fate? You know, I was supposed to meet this person like, we literally, it was the same picture, same picture. It's crazy. It's crazy.

Nick VinZant 33:05

I mean, it's not when you really think about it though, like, I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm going to be the person who is going to sit here and tell you the truth. Other people in your life may lie to you. They may convince you to spend extra money on the washing machine app. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to sit here and tell you the truth that both of you having the same picture of a popular tourist place is not really that crazy.

Speaker 1 33:26

Fine, we're moving on. Usha Vance, I don't know who that is.

Nick VinZant 33:32

Usha Vance, don't know who it is. I mean, you can say, do you want? Like, if you say it slower and louder, will I now know

John Shull 33:38

the Vice President's wife? Wife, good. Good for her. Jesus grace. No, never mind.

Nick VinZant 33:48

I don't I mean, I understand the idea of being informed about society. I don't know if I really need to know who the Vice President's wife is.

John Shull 33:57

Kill Miss moles. Kill Miss moles. Here's, I don't know who it is. It's a whole thing, because she's pregnant again, but people think that he's with

Nick VinZant 34:04

or Charlie. Oh, there's contra Why is she here?

John Shull 34:08

You know, nobody knows, like you know, but it's his whole thing. But like usual, why? Why would you know anything about anything current events? I guess it's fine. It's fine. I I'm, I should have

Nick VinZant 34:21

known better. I wrote that down in on this parade. I know you were excited about your name. You're, you're, I was one word thing you were so excited, and I'm just raining on it.

John Shull 34:30

Supposed to be fun, and instead, you answer it like an 85 year old housewife with dementia.

Nick VinZant 34:36

Well, I don't have anything to say. I don't I don't have any thoughts about things you just put forward. You know what? I don't think about Matt Damon. I'm like, You know what was good?

John Shull 34:46

Let's talk about Donald Trump in Greenland. Then I

Nick VinZant 34:49

don't want it. Like, why are we invading? Like, I don't

John Shull 34:53

want to talk about that. That's just no one wants to talk about that. I was in Canada for three days or so, and it. Was amazing. Nobody taught there was no political ads. There was no, I don't know. Everyone was nice. It was, it was refreshing to see that that, you know, I don't think, and once again, I'm not trying to be political. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on. I'm not saying which side of the aisle I'm on. However, there was like, it was just like, you come back into America and it's like the cloud just sucks you back in, like it's crazy.

Nick VinZant 35:28

So I live in Seattle, and we go up to Canada quite frequently, and you can tell the difference in the mindset of the countries. Now it could be because you're on vacation, you're more relaxed, you're just not paying attention to those things. But there does seem to be something about the United States that it's a rat race, and that's fair. It doesn't feel like that in other places, that there's so much competition in the United States, and it seems like that people are much more frustrated and angry and just stressed out. And it doesn't feel like that in other places. It could be because you're on vacation. I think that that certainly has to factor into it, but it doesn't seem like some other places are like that, and I would like for us to get back to

Unknown Speaker 36:08

that. Well, hopefully someday, after

Nick VinZant 36:11

trust old Usha Ushi Vance,

John Shull 36:14

oh, my god, her to do it. Yeah, sure, I'm done. Let's just move on. Doug, you

Nick VinZant 36:19

don't have any more Okay, give me, give me another one, and then I'll, I'll, I'll try to be as happy and upbeat as you like. What's another one you got? John, tell me all about it.

John Shull 36:31

You're gonna, you're gonna hate this. I already know Mayo chip. What is it? Mayo chip? Mayo and ketchup mixed

Nick VinZant 36:42

in a chip. Is it Mayo chip? But I don't understand what it is. Is it a flavor of a chip? Are you not pronouncing it correctly? Do I just not know what it is, or is it just ketchup and mayo mix together in one bottle?

John Shull 36:57

You know, there's a lot of stresses in my life, if for some reason I just want to choke you. Sometimes I

Nick VinZant 37:03

just, what's up? Man, reach through. Mom is what computer screen making chocolate, blush

John Shull 37:11

and I want to choke you. Fancy dessert, maybe smack you

Nick VinZant 37:16

making it now. Okay, all right. Well, Betty's doing something talking Uncle John. Okay, so what is it now,

John Shull 37:26

Mayo show. It's mayo and ketchup mix. I don't even Can

Nick VinZant 37:30

we just, Oh, it sounds fantastic. No, it's terrible. I'm all No, I'm all about being efficient. I mean, there is not a lot of times when I'm putting ketchup on something and not also strongly considering mayo. So I think that have mayo and ketchup mixed together in one convenient location. That's, that's, that's an A in my book. I'm all about it. That's great. I love it.

Nick VinZant 37:55

Bring some more of it. Mix like, there's not a lot of times that I'm not going to be there is not a lot of times that I'm not going to be using mayonnaise if I'm also using ketchup.

John Shull 38:06

Like, how, after doing this podcast for eight years now or seven years, whatever it is, how can you still just, just make me want to run my ad through a brick wall? Ow.

Nick VinZant 38:18

That's what I do. That's what I do. I just, I'm telling I was interested in Mayo and not interested in Matt Damon.

John Shull 38:29

I just, I It's nothing. I don't know, whatever. Can we just move on?

Nick VinZant 38:34

Okay, so our top five, it's John is throwing his fit. Check your app. How much time? What's the app say about your washer that you paused? What's it telling you so it stopped going? What percent is the cycle done? Does it tell you what percent of the cycle done? Does it tell you how much usage it's doing? To tell you how much electricity it's used? Is how much water it's used? Is it providing you with any helpful information? No, it is not. You downloaded the app too, didn't you?

John Shull 39:04

No, I don't have the app. Actually, my wife has the app, and that doesn't mean I don't do laundry, by the way, she just has the app. I do not.

Nick VinZant 39:15

You're gonna have to get the app. You're not taking it seriously. You're phoning it in. You need to put in some more work here. Okay? All right, so our top five is top five worst car model names, like, why did they name this car that that is a terrible name for a car.

John Shull 39:35

So there are a lot that I didn't realize existed. I don't know how how deep of research you did, but I

Nick VinZant 39:43

did go current car models. I didn't go stuff in the past.

John Shull 39:47

Oh, I Well, I went all over the place. So okay, well, good way to fuck it up. I'm gonna start with the Suzuka cappuccino.

Nick VinZant 39:58

First of all, it's Suzuki. Yeah, Suzuki, you said Suzuka,

John Shull 40:04

sure I did, but it's Suzuki cappuccino.

Nick VinZant 40:12

I'm flustered. You get frustrated with me. You have the audacity to be frustrated with me. You can't say I get two words correctly. You're gonna get mad at me. You're too worried about what I'm doing. Worry about what you're doing.

Unknown Speaker 40:30

I'm not mad at you. I'm just trying to get through this.

Nick VinZant 40:34

So what's what? What's your problem with this Suzuka cappuccino? Their words Smith

Speaker 1 40:41

Suzuki, Suzuki,

Nick VinZant 40:45

cappuccino, right? Yeah, like the coffee. It's what is that like? What is this word frigerator? Anyway, never seen this word before. I just T, H, E, the, are

Unknown Speaker 41:11

you done? Are you done?

Nick VinZant 41:13

I am now. Yeah, did you raise your hand in the Yes, you did. I did. Getting frustrated. I didn't know you could do that.

Speaker 1 41:23

Go ahead. No, please. You're number five, please.

Nick VinZant 41:27

No, I just want to know what was so what's I mean, what does the car look like? If it's a, like, a little, small, Fiat looking car, I don't have a problem with that car being named the cappuccino. It's actually kind of like it, to be honest with you, actually, I like that a lot. I think that's going to be called the cappuccino. It's like a Mini Cooper.

John Shull 41:46

You should never drive vehicles that are named after drinks or food.

Nick VinZant 41:53

Okay, I kind of like the cappuccino. Honestly, if it's a little, tiny, Zippy thing, like it, actually, it's, really, well, I actually really like it. Of course you do buy one. My number five is the Honda Odyssey. It's a minivan. You're not going on any Odysseys, except for picking up the kids in the school line. Like it's, don't try to make it fancy by naming the minivan the Odyssey, like it's some grand adventure to be the Honda boredom, the Honda average.

John Shull 42:24

I mean, I'm, I'm fine with it. I don't understand.

Nick VinZant 42:27

It's not an odyssey. You're not going on an odyssey. You're going to soccer practice.

John Shull 42:33

Sure, I get I mean, do you have problems Kia carnivals too? Dodge Pacifica, there's no

Nick VinZant 42:39

carnival on the Kia carnival. Yeah, I know that you bought a minivan and you're sensitive about the minivans. Now, Bill, I'm not. I just I'm not. What do you have again? Do you have a Kia carnival? I do. Does it feel like a carnival? Does it make you feel like you're going to a carnival? Yeah, because you're driving all the time. Circus load full of children around all the time.

John Shull 42:58

Yeah, well, sometimes I don't even know who's in the van. They're just random people in there, not even my children. Okay, all right. My my number four is the proton.

Nick VinZant 43:09

Putra. Okay. I did not know there was even a car named a proton. There's a proton. Are you saying? Is it really like apparently? And you can't pronounce it,

John Shull 43:21

apparently it is a Romanian car company.

Nick VinZant 43:26

I don't know if I would drive a Romanian car.

John Shull 43:30

I sure I would we drive American cars.

Nick VinZant 43:34

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess I just don't immediately think like quality product when I think of Romania, but that could mean by me buying into stereotypes created by the media. Minor four is a Hummer. Didn't really age, well,

John Shull 43:52

no, and frankly, they're just other than for military use, like they're just not practical vehicles,

Nick VinZant 44:00

not at all. I don't think they fit in a lot of car lanes. Every person I know that bought a Hummer. The Hummer was like the test run for the cyber truck. It's like, oh, people are going to buy this stupid looking piece of crap. Oh, they'll certainly buy this.

John Shull 44:14

Yeah, they'll buy this other stupid looking piece of crap. My number three is the Honda Wow. And wow stands for wonderful, open hearted wagon, and it was designed specifically for dog owners. The Honda, wow.

Nick VinZant 44:34

I don't know if I would buy a car specifically for my dog, like I don't know what I was looking at this other car, but it's not designed with my dog in mind. I need to buy. What is it like? What does it have? What's What does it have?

John Shull 44:48

That the back seat is foldable, and I think that is supposed to be lure like, I think that's supposed to be okay, like, it's fully foldable, and it's like, completely flat, like, there is no. You know, trunk, really, unless you have it up and it's kind of small, so I think that's supposed to be extra space for now, for a dog, yeah, and there's, like, a there's two extra windows in the back. I think that are doggy windows, if I had to guess, but I haven't done any research.

Nick VinZant 45:16

I don't really have a problem with the name, wow. I have a problem with people buying a car because of their dog. Like, you can't adjust. You can't just adjust to a like. You can't get a better vehicle, not a better vehicle, but you can't get a more practical vehicle. Like, it's, I need to have this specifically designed for my dog. Those are features that I really need.

John Shull 45:39

I mean, it just doesn't make, I don't know, just Honda Wow. What makes it a wow. It's for a dog.

Nick VinZant 45:45

My number five, my number three, is a Honda Civic. Civic has to be the most boring car name Civic. You want to drive a car called a Civic.

John Shull 45:57

I mean, it's boring, but at least you know what you're getting with us. It's like the Chevy Cruze or the Ford Sonic, which is kind of dumb, but like, you know what you're getting, Honda Civic.

Nick VinZant 46:10

It just sounds like the most boring, like you're just gonna get the most average car we could possibly find,

John Shull 46:16

the Civic. I will say that when you say that, I immediately know who's driving a Honda Civic.

Nick VinZant 46:22

Exactly right. You're like, I don't really have a personality. I drive a Honda Civic.

John Shull 46:29

I read history of books, and I smell of sweet mahogany. My number two is the land or Range Rover.

Nick VinZant 46:39

Oh, yeah. Very pretentious, very intentionous. I feel

John Shull 46:43

like everyone I've ever met that drives one of those vehicles is a very pretentious person.

Nick VinZant 46:49

The Land Rover, Range Rover is the souped up version of the BMW like, however you feel about BMW drivers. The Land Rover driver is worse. Like, oh, you're even more pretentious.

Speaker 1 47:04

Yeah, by far, not even close, yeah.

Nick VinZant 47:08

Land Rover slash, Range Rovers are like D bags mixed with pretentiousness.

Unknown Speaker 47:18

Driving a Dodge Prowler.

Nick VinZant 47:20

My number two is a tie between the Tucson and the Tacoma. As a person who has lived in Tucson and lives near Tacoma, those are not two cities that you want your vehicle to be named after.

John Shull 47:38

What I mean, why are they not safe? Are they not safe? Cars to drive?

Nick VinZant 47:42

No, they're just not the best. They're not like, they're not good, like, I've lived in Tucson, Tucson, I would not say, is a mecca of intelligence, okay? And yet people are like, Oh, the Tucson, because both of those are the second because they're both named after the second rate city in each state. Like, should we name it the Phoenix or the Scottsdale? No, name it the Tucson because it's not, it's not good enough to be the main city in the state. We need to name it after the second or third best city in the state, because it's not good enough to be the first. Okay, all right, naming something in the Albany, the Toyota Albany, because it's not as good as New York City or Buffalo, it's the Albany,

John Shull 48:39

yeah, or the Dodge Grand Rapids. Oh, my God, we did the same thing at the same time. Did you eat going for Grand Rapids? No, I did Seattle. Oh, anyways, so my, this is not my number one, but I thought this was interesting, that there was a car made called the LI Shi Guang, Detroit, fish. It is terrible. But my number one, and I I'm wondering if it's your number one, it's the cyber truck.

Nick VinZant 49:15

The Cyber truck. The Cyber truck is basically the worst vehicle ever created. I honestly point and laugh every time I see somebody with a cyber truck bought that. Right? Like that is the biggest sucker on the planet is the person who bought the cyber truck. What's an ugly car, poorly named? That doesn't work very well. Let me pay three times the normal price for that.

John Shull 49:43

Yeah, there's not there. I mean, we don't have one obviously, but there's not one, like, redeeming feature from the outside of not, like, not only one, like looking at when there's not one thing where I go, man, I wouldn't mind owning one of those

Nick VinZant 49:58

if I was a woman and. My husband bought a cyber truck. I would divorce them, because this is a person that clearly does not have taste or sensibility or any sort of forefront sight about the future.

John Shull 50:15

Just leave them. I What if you knew them for like, 30 years and they were just going through a midlife crisis?

Nick VinZant 50:22

No, I would still have to. It had to be done. I would like to see a study commissioned on the divorce rate of cyber truck owners, because if I was a woman, there was no way I would be staying with my husband if they bought a cyber truck. Nope, I'm out.

John Shull 50:38

I mean, there aren't. I mean, there aren't really that many good car names, if you think about it, like, there just aren't.

Nick VinZant 50:45

No, there's a lot of them that are kind of bad. What else do you have in your honorable mention? I have a I have a

Unknown Speaker 50:50

decent amount the Buick Lacrosse.

Nick VinZant 50:54

I don't mind that for some reason. It's not like, it's not good. There's just a bunch that are kind of like,

John Shull 51:00

like, like, like, really, anything. Like, any Chevy name makes no sense to me. Silverado traverse the canyon, like, I don't know. Give it something with a little more meaning, a little more something I don't know

Nick VinZant 51:16

I've never understood. The Chevy Suburban irritates me, because what's my goal in life, to live in the suburbs?

John Shull 51:27

Yeah, I guess. I mean, I have no idea why they call it a suburban, other than it's as big as a Suburban.

Nick VinZant 51:32

That's probably why role, um, I have the Hyundai Santa Fe. I'm generally, I'm pretty much just against naming cars after,

Speaker 1 51:44

yeah, you are. You really are. I didn't realize like it

Nick VinZant 51:47

because I've been to those places. Like, I lived in Tucson, I lived near Tacoma, visited Santa Fe like, I always wouldn't name a car after a place that I've been to and been like, oh, that place isn't that great, the Impreza. That's a dumb one too close to impregnate the Corolla. I like I initially had them. I had the Mazda Bongo, and then I started to actually, kind of like it. The Jeep gladiator is also very stupid.

John Shull 52:21

Gladiator. This is defunct, but I have Astro van on my honorable mention. They don't make Astro vans anymore. I don't think so. I don't think Chevy makes a van.

Nick VinZant 52:33

That's a shame they make a minivan. How is your minivan? By the way, do you drive your minivan around town?

John Shull 52:39

That's great. It's really good in the winter for the weather we're having, and I win.

Nick VinZant 52:45

Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Love to hear from people. Let us know what you think are the worst named cars. I think the big difficulty, when you look back on it, is none of them are really that good. Like, there's nothing that's like, Oh, that's a great name, maybe the Mazda Bongo or the Miata, but there's not many that really jump out to you.

How AI Slop is Taking Over Social Media with Jeremy Carrasco

AI Slop is taking over the internet. But how can you tell what’s real and what’s AI. AI Media Expert Jeremy Carrasco joins us to talk sorting through AI Slop, how AI content is eroding public trust and why AI Slop could be the end of social media.

Then, it’s Toaster Ovens and Microwaves vs. Stoves and Refrigerators as we countdown the Top 5 Most Important Appliances

00:00: Jeremy Carrasco

01:22: How to Spot AI Slop

02:46: AI Slop and the End of Social Media

05:13: The Spread of AI Slop

08:41: Who's Making AI Slop

10:27: AI Slop and Political Propaganda

13:01: What Social Media Platforms are Doing about AI Slop

16:59: Tips for Spotting AI Slop

Pointless: 28:19

Top 5 Appliances: 52:45

Contact the Show

Jeremy Carrasco YouTube

Jeremy Carrasco TikTok

Jeremy Carrasco Instagram

Interview with AI Media Expert Jeremy Carrasco



AI and the Future of Employment with Technology Futurist Adam Dorr

When will AI (artificial intelligence) take our jobs. Technology Futurist and AI Employment Researcher Adam Dorr says it might be much sooner than you think. We talk how AI will affect the job market in 2026, why politicians are lying to you about AI and the one thing that will guarantee you a job.

Then, it’s knee pain vs. collecting coupons as we countdown the Top 5 Signs You’re Getting Old.

Adam Dorr: 01:17

Pointless:: 29:14

Top 5 Signs You’re Getting Older: 56:46

Contact the Show

RethinkX Website

Adam Dorr LinkedIn

Adam Dorr BlueSky

Adam Dorr Books: Brighter, The Degrowth Delusion and More than the Sun and Stars

Interview with Futurist Adam Door

Nick VinZant 0:12

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode, the future of AI and signs you're getting older,

Adam Dorr 0:23

if AI keeps going on this rocket ship, there's really no there's no plausible way in which the machines don't out compete us. The more powerful the tool, the more extreme the benefits and the harms could potentially be. Since this is perhaps the most powerful tool ever. So that's my my team, my personal team's assessment is we have somewhere between two and five years, something like that, before we really are in the thick of this.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he is a futurist who studies the impact of AI on employment. This is futurist, Adam Dorr, when we look at 2026, and the immediate future. What changes do you see coming?

Adam Dorr 1:24

The big elephant in the room, overhanging everything else is AI. This is just, it's a rocket ship that we're on, and it's one of those things where even even with all the hype, it still deserves that hype. All of the key properties that we see, costs improving dramatically, capabilities improving dramatically. When you put those two things together with any new technology, you're going to see extremely rapid adoption of that new technology. But for now, I think 2026 is going to be, I think probably going to be the year where we really start seeing these capabilities affecting industries in a in a significant way. They're leaving the stage of being a gimmick, and they're entering the stage where they're actually, genuinely useful. And so I think this could be a breakout year for artificial intelligence. The thing

Nick VinZant 2:20

that I don't understand is, like, Okay, if AI replaces all the jobs, then what does everybody do? Right? Because if you replace the jobs, then nobody has money to buy the thing that like, how does that math?

Adam Dorr 2:35

Math? Yeah, that's, that's exactly the right question to ask. And the truth is, let me say this at the very beginning, nobody has an answer for that question. That's the proverbial $64 trillion question that civilization has to answer. Humanity has to answer this because we are moving into a new paradigm. My team is working on this. We're modeling it. We're simulating it. We're trying to find out whether, for example, proposals for a universal basic income, basically, you have a you in a democracy, you would agree that your Government provides money, provides currency as an income, a basic income to everybody so that they continue to have that purchasing power. We don't have all the answers yet, but the sense of urgency is there, and I'm optimistic a lot of people are thinking very seriously about this, but I have to say, most of that is behind the scenes. At the moment, there's a facade in front of us right now, if you listen to politicians in Washington, DC, or the CEOs of the big tech, giant companies, with one or two exceptions, they're mostly saying they're mostly singing the same tune. Don't worry about AI, don't worry about robots. It's still a long way off, and they're going to create more jobs for people than they're going to displace. That's the story we're getting right now. The truth is that that is a fiction in the longer term. That's a fiction on a sort of 15 to 20 year time horizon, if AI keeps going on this rocket ship, there's really no there's no plausible way in which the machines don't out compete us by around 2040 in pretty much every domain. So right now, we're being, sort of having the wool pulled over our eyes about the long term prospects of this a little bit in the short term. It's true the you know, not everybody's going to lose their job next year, but it's, it's a an illusion, a delusion, for our leaders to be telling us there's nothing to worry about here. There's nothing to see here. That's dishonest, I think, and the conversations I participate in behind closed doors with some of these folks, they're not, they're not under that illusion or delusion themselves. But I'm optimistic because I'll give you two reasons, fundamentally, why I'm optimistic about this, because I don't want to leave this on a leave that this question on it on a. Doom and gloom, disappointing, dismaying note, I'm super optimistic about this for two reasons. The first is energy, and the second is labor itself. Okay, what do I mean by that? The reason why anything, anything at all, any good and service you can name point to anything in your life, or anything in the supermarket or anything around us that's valuable, the reason why it has a price tag on it is because it took a significant amount of energy and a significant amount of someone's labor to put that thing together, to make it, to get it to you, to distribute it, to package it up, to get it in front of you, to deliver it into your life, and so that you can make use of it any good and services like that. And what I mean by that, and what we we say in economic terms is energy and labor are the fundamental factors of production. They go into making everything else. And what the great news is for being optimistic here is that as energy and labor become cheaper, so does absolutely everything else. As labor and energy become abundant, especially if they stay clean, which they will with today's technologies, everything else becomes abundant and available too. And what this means is that even if we, even if we lost our jobs because all of these robots and AIs are doing all of the work, the work still gets done. In fact, probably way more work gets done. And if machines can do 10 times as much work as humans ever could, that means 10 times as much goods and services are around. And in principle, that could translate into vastly greater abundance and prosperity that we could if we make good social choices together as a societies that we could distribute in fantastic ways. So what that means is, with these new technologies, our jobs are threatened, but abundance and prosperity could explode, and that's the prize that we have to keep our eyes on.

Nick VinZant 6:55

I'm going to apologize a little bit in advance, because I feel like I'm going to come after you, like you're personally responsible for the situation that's happening. But like, the idea that, Oh, we haven't solved or really come up with an answer for the fundamental problem we're about to create, that sounds really bad to me. Like, Oh, what's this landing on the bottom of the cliff? Like, well, we don't know, but we're going to jump anyway. Like, wait a minute, that sounds like a really bad idea. Should we have figured this out and then

Adam Dorr 7:26

done what we're going to the cliff, so to speak, absolutely. I mean, in any sensible, right, sensible world, absolutely, oh my gosh, and it's two, it's two problems, actually, the one is sort of the the nuts and bolts economics problem of, you know, job displacement, reorganizing society, labor markets, all of that jazz, that sort of, that sort of down to earth and and that's going to be such a huge thing, we should have figured it out in advance. Had we had the option, had the system's dynamics allowed for that, and unfortunately, it doesn't. The reason why is because we're in a we're in what we call arms race conditions, where the in order to capture this prize that the technology offers, or all of the benefits that it has to offer, it's a race to obtain that capability, that technology first, because we're worried about others beating us to the finish line, and when I say others, the main contest that we hear about in the AI domain is between Basically American technology companies with the government paying playing a supportive role, and China in the same sort of dynamic, with the Chinese government playing a larger role. And the thinking is it really matters who wins that race, and so we can't pause, we can't stop to get things figured out ahead of time. But then there is this other, this other major concern, which is a little more out into the stratosphere kind of thing, and that is the so called Terminator scenario, where we're worried that if we create powerful enough AI, then it could turn on humanity and be a threat to us. And shouldn't we figure out that, what's called the alignment problem. Shouldn't we make sure we know how to build these AI systems so that if one day they you know, they have this proverbial waking up moment they become they it they these systems, or the technology becomes powerful enough that that it ceases to be under humanity's control. Will that be a good thing or bad thing for us? Is it going to be amazing, because this is going to be a benevolent, you know, super intelligent system that can help us solve problems, or is it going to be the Terminator scenario and decide we're a nuisance to get rid of us? That's a real risk. I mean, I don't, I don't, fact, personally factor that. At risk as being enormously high, but it's not zero, and we haven't got that figured out before running this, this arms race, either. So yeah, this is not the way we would do it if we were perfectly rational. But we're in a we're in an arms race.

Nick VinZant 10:13

I mean, it seems to me, looking at it from afar, it's either great or terrible. Is that the future that we're looking at, that we're either looking at Heaven or we're looking at

Adam Dorr 10:24

Hell, the more powerful the tool, the more extreme the benefits and the harms could potentially be. Since this is perhaps the most powerful tool ever, then that means that the stark difference between the benefits and the harms that that tool could create are that's the most extreme one could imagine as well. And then, of course, that translates into very, very high stakes of getting this right, which also then gets back to your question of, if the stakes are so high, why don't we stop to figure this out a little better to begin with, and again, we're back in this catch 22 of the arms race. It's the

Nick VinZant 11:04

rock and the hard place. Is there any push, universally or worldwide, to just say, You know what? Everybody stop? Maybe we shouldn't do this. Yeah.

Adam Dorr 11:17

A couple of years ago, there was a call from the technology community with policymaker support in Washington to to to structure this a little better. Slow things down is maybe, well, there was a letter that was had a very large number of prominent signatories from the technology community that circulated that was calling for a slowdown or a pause on a to i development again, to answer these, these very, very, you know, enormously important high stakes questions. And there was an attempt to slow things down on the regulatory side, or at least get things a little a little more narrowly guard railed than they otherwise would have been, unfortunately, or, you know, for better or worse, depending on how you look at it, within these arms race conditions around the world that that slow down did not take so we've there have been some efforts on that front, but those efforts were overwhelmed by this competitive pressure to stay in the lead in this race.

Nick VinZant 12:26

How does that work? Necessarily, when I would imagine that AI would potentially be replacing certain kinds of jobs first and other kinds of jobs later, where you kind of have half of the population that is suddenly unemployable, and the other half is like, Well, I still got a job, so I'm not doing that. Like, is this the kind of thing that you think is going to have no matter how, how it goes a very rough patch?

Adam Dorr 12:54

I was absolutely guilty of assuming that AI would AI would put the unskilled labor at risk first, and the skilled labor, human skilled labor, would be safer for longer, not forever, but for longer. And what we've seen is actually, if not the total reverse of that, then it at the very least, it's more it's more even, but it looks more like it's going to be the reverse, for example. It surprised many of us that AI was able to so quickly generate art and images, for example. So that's been a surprise, and it it could be that we have a little bit of breathing room for for a couple of esoteric reasons. I'll just mention one, because we don't need to get too far down into the technical weeds here. I don't think, but the but the when robots start marching out of the factories that are that are developing them, developing them in a break neck pace, especially in the US and in China, when they start coming out of these factories and being put to use, they're not going to be able to put, you know, a a experienced plumber, out of work on day one. They're not even, they're barely going to be able to fold laundry on day one. But what they are going to be able to do, or a lot of the little things that are, that are a nuisance, or that would be, that would be frustrating for a human to do, and that you wouldn't pay a person to do, because it wouldn't be worth it, but that nevertheless would still be nice to get done. And what we call this in in the in economics jargon, is latent demand for labor. What that means is that there's all sorts of work that we would love to get done. If we look around the world just picking up the trash that's around us on the street or something, but, but it's, it's, it is for whatever reason, we don't pay minimum wage or higher for that work to get done, and so the work doesn't get done. But the work. Could get done if someone were willing to do it cheaply, cheaply enough. Now, it would be immoral. It would be wrong. It would be inhumane to have a person work for $1 an hour picking up trash. But robots, sure? Why not? Now, that's just one example, but there may be a large number, hundreds, 1000s of things like that across the economy and throughout our society, uses for these machines that we can put them to before they displace the entire career, the entire job description, all of the tasks that say, for example, a plumber or an electrician or a physician or architect or a scientist does, and that may give us some runway for a soft landing, rather than just smashing into the into the crowd after we jump off the cliff kind of thing.

Nick VinZant 15:54

Well, that's the thing, right? Like it ultimately has to be a soft landing, because if not, then the people revolt to be really dramatic, and then we ban it all out, right, right? Like, you kind of have to have a soft landing at some point that goes through. There. Is there any, when you kind of look geographically speaking, are there areas of the world that like, Oh, they're really going to benefit from this first,

Adam Dorr 16:18

there are places that are have have energy advantages, and energy factors into AI, energy factors into robots. So if you have very, very abundant energy, then it's going to be more feasible to run huge AI data centers, many of them, and huge fleets of hundreds of 1000s, millions or more robots, because those are going to use a lot of electricity for those two things, AI, and robots are going to use a lot of electricity. In case you're wondering why China is, is, is, you know, building enough solar panels that it's basically enough to power the United States. They're doing that every, every two or three years at this point, the rate they're building solar, it's unbelievable. The build out. That is the reason why they're anticipating that need, that demand for all of that electricity. Who adopts these technologies first, and how successfully they onboard them? And what my team believes is that it's unlikely, it's unlikely, for the winners of that process to be the entrenched leaders in today's status quo, what we call the incumbent centers of power and influence today. And the reason why is because wherever the status quo works the best today, there's going to be the most resistance to any change to it right? And so what we see throughout history is that it's often out on the edges of power and that incumbency that new technologies are embraced and utilized, and then a new center of leadership springs out of that. And that we see that over and over and over again. So, for example, it wasn't just in recent memory. It wasn't Washington, DC, where the internet and the computer and the digital revolution all took root and emerged. And it wasn't in Manhattan, and it wasn't in in, you know, Los Angeles and these other massive centers it was, it was Silicon Valley, which in the 1970s and 1980s was sort of a out on the edges of things. It wasn't right at the center of power of the status quo in the 1970s and 1980s that's just one recent example in living memory. So I think we're likely to see something similar,

Nick VinZant 18:37

how long in your mind and right? Like just thrown out a prediction in the sense, how long do we go from kind of the difficult period to the paradise period? In the sense, we're like, okay, it's taking jobs. It's starting to get going. People are starting to get hit by it, so to speak. How long do we go from kind of that period to where it can no now we're in prosperity. Like, how soft of a soft landing do we need to have? Like, how, what's the time? Does this make sense? What I'm asking, I think I'm sure, well, not saying it very well, but I think you get what I'm saying. Like, how long do we go? Like, how long do we have to go through hell to get to heaven?

Adam Dorr 19:15

I would be very surprised if the story weren't mostly told by 2045, 20 years from now, the at the other end, how fast could it go? Well, this is where the past isn't that great of a guide things. Things didn't change as fast in 1525 the year 1525 as they do in the year 2025, and it was a different it was a different world. And now information and everything else moves at the speed of lighter, basically. And so it's, it's just, it's things can happen faster. So what would be about the most rapid that we would sort of be in the thick of this transformation and really need to be having our arms around this thing? It could be. Within five years, I would be very surprised if we're sort of seeing radical impacts of job displacement and total upheaval of our economic circumstances that are requiring really dramatic action from our governments. I would be surprised if that we were in the thick of that before the end of 2027 so two years from now, but, but I would be surprised if we weren't in the thick of it by 2030 so that's my my team, my personal team's assessment is we have somewhere between two and five years, something like that, before we really are in the thick of this because of these arms race conditions.

Nick VinZant 20:47

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions. Let's go for it. Has there ever been anything in the past you could compare this technological change to like, what would be kind of the closest comparison that we have had in the past.

Adam Dorr 21:01

You really have to reach deep into history to the big the big ones, to get any kind of, any kind of disruption that's even comparable. And I'm talking the big ones, language, fire, writing, electricity. Those are the that we're in. That strata we're in this is, this is the big leagues when it comes to technology disruptions. And it could be that artificial intelligence is the very biggest of them. Nuclear weapons is another, another one. But there are things about AI that are just categorically different and potentially more impactful. In fact, it might even be where you have to sort of expand beyond just human and just technology per se, for something comparable, it could be that this is more like the emergence of of mammals or the emergence of animals in the history of biology, and to get something that's that's this big and this profound of a shift. AI, artificial intelligence is a monumental transformation. It's probably more than just another technology.

Nick VinZant 22:12

Yeah, a true before and after moment like that was the one when I was as I was asking this question. Was like, oh, fire, like there was before fire and there was after fire, and there was totally, totally different on a scale of one to 1010, being the highest. How prepared Do you think we truly are prepared, not just in terms of economically, prepared in all aspects of society?

Adam Dorr 22:38

Well, somewhere between a one and a five, and it's probably a logs, and it's probably a logarithmic scale. It's probably not a linear scale, right? Like the Richter scale, for people who are familiar, honestly, but, I mean, this is a question, is, what would How could you be any better prepared? I mean, I guess if you, if you had a if you knew exactly what was going on. I mean, if we'd seen another like, if we were looking through a telescope at an alien civilization, and we'd watch them go through this and solve the missteps they made and all of the right moves they made. Maybe that would be let us prepare. But how else are we I mean, it's, it's an impossible situation we're in. We've never seen or been through anything like this before. So preparation is, it's almost an impossible task, almost an impossibly tall

Nick VinZant 23:21

order ending on a more serious kind of one. But this is from somebody like, if you were entering the job market, like, what would you do? What jobs do you think? Kind of go first? What jobs do you think go last? Like, what would your advice to people be?

Adam Dorr 23:34

Well, so I have children. I mean, I've got two daughters. One is 12 years old, so she's going to be entering, she's going to be heading to she would be heading to college, looking at the job market should be on the thick of it. My perspective on this is that it's no matter what we think is going to happen, the world will be very different, and whether there are any jobs available or just very, very different jobs that are available for people to do what you really need to work on, I think what's not going anywhere, and what will continue to be valuable is a person who has the ability, who has the capacity to improve the lives and the world around them that I think is the most important thing. So as cheesy as it sounds, as sort of, as sort of rosy eyed and optimistic as it sounds, I think the most important thing to focus on is make yourself into a person who contributes, make yourself into a person who has these sort of timeless virtues. Are you someone who can enter into any situation, who can join any community and contribute, and I'm encouraging my children. In to have that at top of at the top of their minds. So that needs to be top of mind with with education, it's not about preparing to to work a job anymore. It's not about developing the skills or downloading all of the knowledge through your high school and college years that will, then, you know, allow you to be competitive in a job market when it's impossible to compete with machines. But instead, it's going to continue to be enormously valuable if you are the kind of person that other people want to be with, if you are the kind of person that can enter into relationships that are constructive, no matter where you go, no matter where you choose to spend your time, if you can be a contributor, if you can be someone that adds to everyone around you, then you're going to be valuable. You will be in demand.

Nick VinZant 26:01

I have a NINE and a six year old, and so I'm, I think that's one of the reasons that I'm so anxious about is like, oh, what's your life going to be like? How can I steer you in the right direction when I have no idea which way the right direction is? But that's good advice. Like, try. It's interesting. I feel like AI can maybe replicate our intelligence and our abilities. But can it be human? Can it do that? Do you think that it will ever get to the point where, like, oh, it could. You could have an AI robot right next to you, and you wouldn't know that that's not another human being.

Adam Dorr 26:36

I certainly wouldn't discount that possibility. How soon that you know how far away that moment is. It's, it's too early to tell. I mean, I would be shocked if that was within five or 10 years. I would not be surprised at all if it was within 30 years or never. It's unclear still. And, yeah, I think that that the biggest thing that I would say here is that, like any momentous, you know, fork in the road, it feels precarious, and we could, we could make one wrong step and fall to our doom. It's felt like that a number of times throughout human history, and it's not like it's all been smooth sailing. I don't want to say that, but I'll just, I think I would end with part of this coming out of the DNA of my organization, and that is that we know now more than we've ever known in the past. We're better prepared today to deal with a transformation like this than ever before. We've we have had the opportunity to learn by looking back over history at how we've societies have succeeded and failed to onboard new technology, and that's caused radical social and economic and and political change before. We're better positioned to do that today than ever before, right? And so keep your chin up. The future is enormously bright. And even though we've got a, you know, we've got some, some tough travels, a tough journey ahead of us. We can do it. We can absolutely get through this. We will get this figured out, but we're not going to get it figured out alone. We're only going to get it figured out by working together. And yeah, that's, I guess that's my, I guess that's my, my sales pitch for why? Why should you be optimistic about our future, because it's, it's got all the potential in the universe. And it's really, it's really, it's almost a privilege to be in, to live through a moment this wild in the history of humanity. How cool is it to be to be living in this time, getting to see all of this amazing change at this moment. We're we're pretty lucky to be on the front lines of all of this.

Nick VinZant 28:45

Oh yeah, that's definitely right. Like, if it goes right, you are living at the fundamental change of the human race. Pretty cool. It would be like the sitting around in the cave when somebody figured out fire. I want to thank Adam so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you think AI will be a good thing or a bad thing for society?

John Shull 29:26

I already think it's a terrible thing for society.

Nick VinZant 29:30

Oh, I think it's a terrible thing for society too. I'm sure there is some benefit, like the possibilities are really good, but that's just not what we as human beings do, I just don't I don't see how this turns out well in the short term at all.

John Shull 29:48

I would be okay if we used AI to make things more effective, but not to use it to deceive and to make profits off of which is a. All it is all, you know, that's all it's used for now.

Nick VinZant 30:03

Oh, that's what we always do. I feel like with just about any recent technology, we have high hopes for what we could use it for, like social media could have been an incredible thing with an exchange of information and meeting people from different cultures and backgrounds that you could never experience. And instead, we've just used it to kind of the lowest common denominator, like, that's what we always do. We always do that. So I don't understand why we always have high hopes for things when we always go to the lowest possible denominator that we can get,

John Shull 30:33

because it's the easiest. I feel it's the less you don't have to use any brain cells for AI social media, right? I mean, look at what chat GBT can do you literally don't have to write essays anymore. It writes them for you. Like, that's amazing.

Nick VinZant 30:51

Oh, the way that I see our future is from the movie wall e, if AI really does work, I really think we'll end up being like wall e, where we can't do anything, we just have to be carted around in chairs. Like, that's really what I think our AI future is, like,

John Shull 31:10

I mean, there's enough people now that don't know how to interact with people. I feel like that's the first step is, you know, getting people isolation, and the next thing you know, we'll all be being carted around because we can't walk.

Nick VinZant 31:24

I do feel like though, that we have to have some sort of solution. I feel that what we're going towards now is kind of fundamentally not what we really are like to be just working away in buildings, selling insurance, doing things like that, like that's not really what we're designed to do. I think we have to find more be get back to a higher purpose. But I don't think AI is the thing that's going to let us do that. What do

John Shull 31:51

you want? You want to become a caveman again. You want to be out in the elements. Do your little run on the little tracky poo.

Nick VinZant 31:59

I don't run on the track. I run on the football field. Track is it's not the best track next to my house. But anyway, I polled the audience. 17% of people said it would be good. 28 bad, 20 more good than bad, and 35 more bad than good. So it seems like people pretty overwhelmingly think that it's going to be either completely bad, sort of bad or kind of bad. I don't think anybody really thinks this is going to be a good idea.

John Shull 32:31

Not really. It's already bad. And I mean, look at the most recent example that we can use is obviously the United States. You know, whatever you want to call it, military operation in Venezuela. How many images and videos were on social media within 10 minutes of that, like hitting an actual news source that were fake? I mean, probably 1000s.

Nick VinZant 32:56

Oh, that's a huge problem. I think when you really look at it, ultimately, all of society is built on trust at some level or not. Like it's all built on trust. And if you can't trust things, this whole thing goes bad fast for us.

John Shull 33:12

I mean, you know, not going left or right here, but you know, I feel like it starts with the top and, oh yeah, it's not a good thing

Nick VinZant 33:23

that would be to get political. My single biggest problem with the current administration is that if you erode that trust, you are eroding the fundamental thing that society is based on. And that does not end well for us, all of us.

John Shull 33:38

I'm all about it. I'm even kind of fine with robots to a certain degree, but I'm not okay with robots that can like, you know, do human like, Be a human, serve human functions? Oh, yeah, not okay with any of that.

Nick VinZant 33:54

I'm also not okay at all with the idea that a handful of people are going to decide the future for billions, because it seems like the vast majority of people that at least I talk to, don't really want anything to do with AI, but we're still going to go ahead and do this, because there's a handful of people that can make a lot of money off of it, and who cares if we screw the whole planet?

Speaker 1 34:16

Well, I mean, it's the it's the corporations, right? It's the

Nick VinZant 34:20

Get out of here. You throw it away and I'll give you $1 get out Gremlin.

John Shull 34:31

Well, that laughs, amazing. All I'm saying is I it makes sense financially for business, businesses, but

Nick VinZant 34:39

Jesus, will you get your heart burn under control, dude, I've

John Shull 34:43

actually been really good. This is my first drink of the new year.

Nick VinZant 34:47

So, oh, on a Tuesday, drink is a Tuesday.

John Shull 34:55

It's just one beer, and it's kind of like a celebratory like podcast. Thing I don't know.

Nick VinZant 35:01

Oh, okay, okay. All right, I appreciate that. All right, taking it easy. I just didn't like I could never just get wasted on like a Tuesday. What day would you say? What day are you least what day of the week? Are you least likely to get messed up.

John Shull 35:23

I mean, I mean it's, I mean it's, it's seasonal for me, like, you know, during the summer and spring, nicer months, it's going to be middle of the week, right, Tuesday, Wednesday, maybe Thursday. But like in the winter, I'm probably more more geared towards, like, Sunday, Monday. Oh, of not drinking hard, I would think,

Nick VinZant 35:55

Oh, I don't know if I've ever gone after it on a Tuesday. I don't think my body would allow me to be like, it's Tuesday. No, it's Tuesday. Not getting I wasted on a Tuesday.

John Shull 36:07

I've almost become kind of more appreciative of going out on an off, you know, on an off, popular day, because you can just sit at the bar, you get quick service. Usually deals. It's good stuff. You're old. You are old. Hey, you want to talk about the weather?

Nick VinZant 36:26

No, I don't. What's the weather in Buenos Aires? Have you looked recently?

John Shull 36:32

No, but I actually, I have a friend who's going to Colombia, so I've been looking at Colombia. What is the weather in Colombia? Oh, it's pretty nice. I mean, let's see what. Let's see what it was. We don't

Nick VinZant 36:44

need to. We don't. I'll look it up. Why don't you do shout outs while I look up what the weather in Columbia is.

John Shull 36:50

All right, shout outs. Here we go. Let's we're gonna start with Carmela, Gardner, Efren Willis, Victor, Madden, Mildred wells, Hassan Jefferson, Ira Boyd, James Blankenship, Lorna Aguilar, and we'll end on Bert spears.

Nick VinZant 37:14

Don't see a lot of birds. It is currently 44 degrees and cloudy in Bogota, Colombia. I would have thought it would that would not be the temperature in Bogota, Colombia, but apparently,

John Shull 37:24

there it is. That does sound kind of terrible, doesn't it? Right?

Nick VinZant 37:27

That doesn't sound good. I thought it would be like 70s or 80s in Colombia right now.

Speaker 1 37:33

That does sound terrible, yeah, isn't it? Some see here

Nick VinZant 37:38

the southern hemisphere. Is that how that works

John Shull 37:41

must only be Australia or something. Ah, man, I feel here's the problem. I feel like there was so much that happened in the last two weeks, but I also feel like it's nothing that I truly care nor want to talk about. Is that bad?

Nick VinZant 38:01

No, I mean, I essentially have a 30 minute attention span. My attention span has decreased significantly over the last couple of years.

John Shull 38:12

I just Well, I feel like that's everybody's like, that's why social media is so popular.

Nick VinZant 38:18

Can we talk about Venezuela without getting political. Because to me, I was like, we invade. We're fighting Venezuela like it just seems so random, like, Wait, Venezuela, okay?

John Shull 38:35

I don't know. I don't know how you don't bring to me, it's very eerily reminiscent of what the Bush administration did with Iraq and Afghanistan, basically where and once again, don't take politics in this, but you create something that maybe is there maybe isn't, but you make people believe it is. And you go in and you conduct things like literally kidnapping a world leader and nothing's gonna happen. No, I'm not saying Nicholas Maduro is a good person. I'm sure he isn't. Venezuela's had a lot of problems, but regardless, we still invaded another country.

Nick VinZant 39:17

Oh yeah, we invaded another country.

John Shull 39:20

Killed 80 people, that they're reporting some civilians in that number two, if you believe the media. So it's not like we just went in, captured one person and got out like they made a ruckus. The problem is you can't, you don't know what to believe in terms of video and things that come out, like we were saying earlier, or I was saying earlier, because there's so many videos, but it looked pretty like surreal what was happening.

Nick VinZant 39:47

I haven't watched any of it because I'm not in the news anymore, like you, and I don't really want to pay attention the headlines all I need for most stuff.

John Shull 39:57

What I without? Okay, well, without getting an Apollo. Politics that I'm more interested in is that he actually, President Trump, released a quote earlier that today, on Tuesday, saying he's seriously looking at military action against Greenland. They like, they want Greenland, and once again, taking politics out of it. It's like Greenland. Like Greenland,

Nick VinZant 40:23

well, because I feel like all of society again, trying to keep politics out of it, like all of society does this thing where there's something that we should do, but instead we do something else. Like, you know, what should we confront Russia or China or any of the or North Korea, Korea, or anybody that you could list is like a bad actor, no, but we will invade Greenland. You know, it's like, Should we do this thing? Yeah, we should. But instead, let's do this. Yeah?

John Shull 40:57

I mean, I just, you know, I don't know. I just, you know, we started this podcast halfway through his first administration. I you know, I don't even know, we still have three years of of this left. And, I mean, I guess it's entertaining, I suppose, but it's, it's a lot on a daily basis, like, once again, taking politics outside of or out of it, just trying to keep up with anything, you know, in terms of news. It's just, it's very like, exhausting and just sad, like, it's just sad,

Nick VinZant 41:34

Oh, I'm so tired of all of it, worn out, of all of it. Just like, God, I just want things to be normal, and I feel like you and I are relative. I'm a little bit older than you, but relatively the same age where my entire adult life has been one crisis to another. I think all Millennials basically have experienced that, where it's been one crisis to another for the last 24 years. 25 years just always something, always something, and always things that seem to be very avoidable, that we could have just like, No, we could have gotten around this. Do you think, Okay, let's try to lighten this up. Do you think your 2026 will be better than your 2025 you're personally like, do you? Are you more optimistic about this year than last year?

John Shull 42:20

Absolutely, for one reason, and that is so I lost 18 real pounds last year. Okay, I know that doesn't sound like a lot. Probably isn't a lot, to be honest, but I did it without any kind of shots and all that other stuff. My goal this year, my two goals, is to kind of keep, keep on that path. I want to lose like, 30 pounds this year. I've already signed up for a half marathon in October.

Nick VinZant 42:49

Okay, all right. I like it. I like it like setting the sites relatively low. It's a half marathon and it's all the way it's nine months from now. I like it, right? Like achievable, but distant.

John Shull 43:01

But the biggest thing that I need to do that will make my 26 better, for me, personally, and maybe everyone else out there can reminisce, is like, I have to figure out what makes me happy.

Nick VinZant 43:13

Oh, yeah, that's called a midlife crisis. Man, you're going to hit a midlife crisis. I've already been through it. You're you're younger enough. You're younger enough, younger enough than me. You know what I'm trying to say. You haven't hit the midlife crisis yet. I've gone through the midlife crisis. It's brutal.

John Shull 43:29

Are you supposed to hit a midlife crisis at 40 Yeah, right

Nick VinZant 43:33

around there. I would say between 37 and 43 is when you hit the midlife crisis, because you come to the realization that, like, Oh, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? Because in some way, weird way, half of your life is over, but you still have at least half, but you still have an incredible amount of time left, and you're not really sure what you're going to do, and you also don't have as many options. I think that's what's so tough about a midlife crisis, because you need to find yourself, but it's much more difficult for you to completely change your paths. I know a lot of people that are going through that. It's tough, man, it's hard,

John Shull 44:09

but yeah, I guess not. We've had some deep conversations already on this. If you're just listening to this podcast, we don't usually talk about anything deep. Yes, I think 2026, is going to be a better year for me, personally. What about you? I have no idea. I mean, without going into details, you're 2025

Nick VinZant 44:27

Oh, my 2025 shitty. Yeah, my 2025 you can make an easy argument. Was one of the worst years of my life. The dog died, family members died, basement flooded, and my son had to get an emergency liver transplant. I mean, it's pretty easy to beat 2025 but at the same time, like you look back on it, and like you got through that, you come out so much stronger. I don't think, I don't think negative experiences should be viewed negatively. Think that you should see them as positives that you were able to get through that.

John Shull 45:01

You literally, you literally are the only person in my entire phone book that will message me just randomly out of we could, we couldn't have talked for five days, and your first message to me will be something about me being a bitch, or why aren't I doing three shots and a beer at Saturday night at 1am I appreciate you for that

Nick VinZant 45:21

you have. You have developed some bitch tendencies. There's just no dog in you. If you went to the doctor, they would prescribe you of not having any dog in you right now, oh my god, you got to get the dog back.

Speaker 1 45:32

Looking at soft I do need to get the dog back.

Nick VinZant 45:35

You got to get the dog back in you. He's got no dog in you. That's what the doctor's diagnosis would be, is like you might be a bitch.

John Shull 45:44

Let's see here. I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna go out and kind of ignore you for a second and not ask you the question, but I'm gonna say a statement that I think Stranger Things might be one of the most overrated shows of all time.

Nick VinZant 46:02

The first epic, the first season was great. Everything since then has been a letdown. Everything since then has been like, not to go back on the AI thing, but it's been like a computer designed it based on the algorithm of what they thought people liked. So many Netflix shows are like that. It's like a studio executive just designed this. It's all trying too hard. And I hate to say it, but those kids were cute when they were younger, and now they can't act like, oh, they cast them based on cuteness. And like, Oh, you're not really good actors.

John Shull 46:42

Do you watch? Do you watch Stranger Things? I didn't think that you watched it.

Nick VinZant 46:46

I am trying to get through the last season right now that. And it's just like, oh, this is terrible.

John Shull 46:54

That is a great way to put it. We are trying to get through the last season as well. And I Yeah, it's, it's not good. And I don't, I agree with you. It's just, I don't even think, what's her name, Bobby Millie Brown. I don't even think, I don't even think she's very good of an actress,

Nick VinZant 47:11

no, but that, you know, like, I don't think that they were cast for their acting abilities. I think that they were cast for the kids that they were playing at the time. And then, like, well, now what are we going to do? Yeah, that's that's another big a lot of the really big shows over the last couple of years, and the only with two I can think of are honestly Game of Thrones and Stranger things have been big letdowns, like, oh,

John Shull 47:37

I would argue that. I mean, Game of Thrones just went on. I feel like a lot of shows go on for too many seasons, but, you know, how are they supposed to wrap it up? I feel like they did a fine job.

Nick VinZant 47:50

Oh, well, that's I mean, obviously you haven't read the books, and as someone who's read the books, that automatically makes me better than you.

John Shull 47:56

By the way, have have we had a have we done a podcast since I became a wrestling champion. Are you a wrestling champion? Now we are. We won the title at the Oh,

Nick VinZant 48:07

yeah, we did. We did the last one. I mean, let's listen that you being a wrestling champion is a little bit like me being the third fastest kid in the state of Kansas. Like, technically true, but not, not like the way that you are saying it right, like you are a wrestling champion and I am the third was once the third fastest kid in the state of Kansas. But it's not like, if you keep explaining it, you can't, you know, but congratulations, when's your next when's your next big match? Are you training? February? Okay, solo. You're gonna go solo. You can break

John Shull 48:46

out, no, but I do think we're gonna possibly have a tag team match.

Nick VinZant 48:51

So, okay, like tag team, like two guys going at you?

Unknown Speaker 48:58

Got it? Got it, man.

Nick VinZant 49:04

Well, I'm very proud of you for pursuing your wrestling dream.

John Shull 49:07

Thank you. I appreciate that you never know maybe, maybe it's going to turn into something

Nick VinZant 49:12

you never know. That is what 2025 has taught me. Boy, your life can change in an instant. It can just completely change. You can have a before and an after, and that difference can happen in a second.

John Shull 49:27

I will say, though, that I brought in 2026 the way that 2025 started and ended, and that was me and the family were supposed to go over a friend's house and, you know, have some drinks and watch the ball drop and all that stuff. And at about 530 my oldest just starts throwing up everywhere.

Nick VinZant 49:51

So I know you want to change. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna continue this, because I know you wanted, you're desperately want to turn this into the dad wrestling Podcast. I'm not going to do it. I'm. Not going to ask you any follow up questions. I'm just going to say, like, Oh, I'm glad your daughter's okay.

John Shull 50:05

I mean, if you want to turn this into a dad wrestling podcast, are you ready? Ready? Am I ready? Of course,

Nick VinZant 50:15

I'm ready. I'm the outlaw candle connoisseur. Rides Again. Candle of the month 2026,

John Shull 50:25

we're starting off with. I got this as kind of a gag joke from a co worker, okay, for the holidays, but man, it is. It's It's awesome, and it's by Goose Creek Candle. Head over to Goose Creek Candle. Calm. I believe it's only going to be up. It's a seasonal candle, but it's in my favorite three weeks. You can get it on clearance right now. I checked it out right before I hopped on and without further ado, the first candle the month for 2026 is Pillsbury Cinnamon Rolls. That's a seasonal candle. Yeah, it's for the holidays. You know, it's for the winter.

Nick VinZant 51:05

Oh, it's on clearance. But are you going to be burning a seasonal holiday candle in February?

Unknown Speaker 51:11

Yeah? Oh, my God. Oh, the

Nick VinZant 51:13

candle discussion boards are going to be filled with controversy. Where white after Labor Day.

John Shull 51:20

There actually was a post about not this candle, but Goose Creek. Sorry, you asked you kind of brought it up. They make other like scented candles for like holiday foods, like apple cinnamon bread, chocolate chip cookie. And somebody said that they make them with real ingredients. And that person got absolutely ripped to shit as they should have. So, wow, wow.

Nick VinZant 51:48

You ask, that's the candle. What is? What is like a vicious oral beating, like in the candle forums, passive aggressive? Is it passive is it passive aggressive? I feel like it's passive aggressive.

John Shull 52:01

So there is one user that's really cranky. She must be an old lady.

Nick VinZant 52:04

So Well, I mean, you would think, but then again, here you are in a candle connoisseur. Are you do people? Did you? Have you made any friends on the candle forums?

John Shull 52:15

I don't know if I made friends, but I have had direct messages about certain things with

Nick VinZant 52:21

people, okay, okay. How many I feel like, if I

John Shull 52:24

was to reveal that I was the candle connoisseur, like that, would that would completely shut down the forums, like it would be over.

Nick VinZant 52:32

I don't know why you haven't made anything out of this. Can you do something with this in 2026 maybe?

John Shull 52:38

Can you maybe I'll file this for for a copyright, aren't they free, or you got to pay, like, 20 bucks.

Nick VinZant 52:44

I have no idea how that stuff works, but you should probably do that. Okay, but tell us about the scent of the candle, because right now, you just said the candle and gave us no other information other than cranky people complaining on forums about it.

John Shull 52:56

So like I said, it's three weeks, it's gonna start off. I mean, if you haven't experienced a cold day, and you get up and there's kind of, you know, say your heat kicked off at like, three, 4am and it's kind of frosty in your house, and you wake up and you just smell a cinnamon roll baking in the oven. Have you ever done that?

Nick VinZant 53:20

No, I don't have a sense of smell.

Speaker 1 53:22

Oh, yeah, that's right. I don't know how I forget that everybody. It's everyone does.

John Shull 53:28

It starts off, it will fill your house with the aromatics of, you know, like a sweet icing. And then as it goes, it gets through the body, just like how you would eat a cinnamon roll, right? It's very bold. It's very full, and for 10 bucks right now on Goose Creek candle.com, you can't you gotta go check it out.

Nick VinZant 53:52

What's the burn time? Oh,

John Shull 53:55

God. I mean, I went through mine about four days, so probably, probably less than 70 hours, which is pretty normal for a three week.

Nick VinZant 54:09

I would like to remind people listening to this or watching this that John does have two children, so we can assume that he has had sex with a woman twice,

Speaker 1 54:19

two times, at least make it times, at least two times, maybe six or seven times.

Nick VinZant 54:25

Maybe that's a big year for them to show house, 676, that no duels. Would you ever drink a non alcoholic beer?

John Shull 54:38

Well, I've so when I was when I undergo my liver stuff from time to time, even though it's been a few years, because I'm doing such a great job where I have to quit drinking. I have tried old duels, but to me, I just can't do something half assed. So, like I either I have to give it up cold or, like an old duels, isn't it's just not good enough. Like I need the actual beer. Hmm, like, that's, that's a Yingling, by the way,

Nick VinZant 55:04

okay, um, when I was a younger man, there was a point in my life when I, you know, would steal beer, because that's what I was doing. And I once stole a case of old duels, not realizing that it was non alcoholic. Like, oh, duels, I haven't had that, steal that, and then I sold it to a kid for $5 I was like, Hey, man, I'll give you this five bucks. This was way back in the day you could get a case for 999. Sold him a case of O duels for five bucks.

John Shull 55:34

I remember in college, you get an 18 pack of bottles of land shark for like, 14 bucks. And you thought you were living life.

Nick VinZant 55:42

Oh, man. Keystone was, like, the cheapest. That was, like, you could get that for, I think maybe nine to 12 for a 30

John Shull 55:50

pack Keystone, man, I, I can't do. I've never I can't do. I haven't been able to do cheap beer since I, oh,

Nick VinZant 55:59

that's the best. I actually prefer cheap beer. I don't drink beer very much anymore, but when, if I do, I want, I want it to be swill. Just cheap swill.

Unknown Speaker 56:10

Yeah, you, you drink. I don't know I

Nick VinZant 56:13

drink cheap shit. Give me some. I want to know that I'm drinking it. You guys, you Nancy pansies. Oh, I want my drinks to taste good. I want my alcohol to be smooth. No, you drink the cheap stuff so that you know you're drinking it. You want that to like, make you feel like you're gonna barf. That's how you know you're drinking when you feel sick. It's how a man drinks. Give me the nastiest rot gut stuff you can find you ready for our top five? Yeah. So our top five is Top Five Signs you're getting older, little things that you notice that, like, Oh, I'm getting older. To number five.

John Shull 56:57

My number five is, I just, I don't get involved in like, petty arguments anymore. And, like, that's all the way around. Like, if my kids are going at it, if my wife is just, like, talking at me, I just sit there and take it now. I don't even, like, I don't even get involved. I just sit there and then when they're done, I'm just like, oh, okay, sounds good.

Nick VinZant 57:20

Yeah, you don't have the energy for arguments, and you realize they don't really matter. So you're just kind of like,

John Shull 57:25

okay, yeah, like, it's just, I, that's I, we've set up. I don't have the energy, and I'm not I'm not gonna anything. I say no one's gonna listen to anyways. So my

Nick VinZant 57:37

number five is, you make a sound every time you get up. You know you're getting older when you can't stand up without making some sort of sound,

John Shull 57:47

like, oh yeah. And if it's not verbal, it's your bones letting you know that you're getting older,

Nick VinZant 57:56

oh yeah. It's either you saying something or making some noise or your bones cracking, that's like, I noticed that's like, Oh, I'm getting older, because every time I stood up, I was like, Oh, that's not good. It's not good.

John Shull 58:13

Clark Oh, but can Okay, we got, can we cut us just for 10 seconds? Yeah. Chevy Chase. What is going on with Chevy Chase? Is he that? Is he really that terrible of a human being, like he

Nick VinZant 58:28

must be, he must be just the but I've heard from a like, Okay, I do look at Reddit and I follow someone. Like, I wouldn't say follow, but when I see like celebrity gossip, I might look at it, but he just must be a terrible human being that everybody hates.

Speaker 1 58:44

Yeah, I mean, that's and that's what's crazy.

Nick VinZant 58:47

Like that will be his ultimate legacy is that of an asshole. He had missed some funny movies, but like, when you find out somebody's just an asshole, you kind of remember him more for that. Apparently, Bill Murray is also the same way that, like, Oh, he's kind of a jerk.

John Shull 59:03

Yeah, I don't, I don't know if I want that to come out, though, because I feel like Bill Murray's a, you know, he's a funny guy. Okay, it's number four. I've noticed that before I go grocery shopping, I try to find coupons.

Nick VinZant 59:22

Do you cut them out? Do you don't come out?

John Shull 59:25

Do you No, because they're digital, you know, for the most part, but I'm not. I'm not above paper coupons if I get them, but it's usually I'll spend like five to an hour before

Nick VinZant 59:39

that's a heck of a time difference between five to an hour. So which one is it really? You go look for coupons for an hour before you

John Shull 59:49

I mean, I just Yeah, but I've even gotten to the point to where I'm like, Man, if I can get eggs 30 cents cheaper, I'll go to the other store just to buy eggs.

Nick VinZant 1:00:00

Yes, Oh, see, I don't understand that because you spent more that you spent that money on gas.

John Shull 1:00:06

Yeah? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. It

Nick VinZant 1:00:08

doesn't make any sense. But you feel like once it's in the tank, you don't really think that much about it, yeah, like, it's already bought, and then it's all free, right? Like, once you buy it, like, the rest of the trip is free. Like, oh, this is free. I could go anywhere if I were to pay anything. Like, Well, you already paid for it. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta think that's whole way through, right? You don't want to drive across into the great state of Ohio to save 50 cents on eggs.

John Shull 1:00:37

I would never do that. Would you say 75 I'm driving to Ohio, which is about 60 miles from me. It better be two or $3 difference, at least.

Nick VinZant 1:00:49

Well, if it's $2 cheaper, then I'll spend two hours driving. But not okay. I like it. That's math. That's math. There mathism. My number four is falling asleep anywhere. I fell asleep at the dentist's office. No kidding, like I was at the dentist. They were cleaning my teeth and I fell asleep. Oh, that's pretty funny, man, I woke up, and the lady was like, You were asleep. And I said, that's not a good sign, is it? She's like, No, probably not.

John Shull 1:01:22

Now I still am at the point in my life where, if I nap, I get angry. So I'm not to that point yet.

Nick VinZant 1:01:28

Oh yeah, I don't have a problem with napping, but it's like, when you don't want to fall asleep and you can, like, if I get bored watching TV, it's over. I'm down. Down.

John Shull 1:01:41

Goes. Frasier. This one is gonna make me sound really old, but it's so true. And it's basically, whenever I try to turn on the radio or even see who's popular in, like, the music scene, I have no idea who anyone is, like I might or what song is popular for them. Like, yeah, I know who Cardi B is, but I have no idea what her song is. That's out, that's popular.

Nick VinZant 1:02:06

That's my number three, is when you don't recognize anyone at award shows. Oh, yeah, like, that's a great sign that you're getting older when you know more politicians than celebrities, like when you turn on the award show and you don't know who any of these people are. You're getting old. Yeah?

John Shull 1:02:25

It's like, oh, hey, I got excited to see Brooks and Dunn like, Oh no, I did.

Nick VinZant 1:02:33

Yeah, that's, yeah. Like, you're now the person going to the casino concerts. There's like, I don't even, I don't even know who's a popular musician now. Like, I couldn't even Sabrina carpenter. Like, you can go see Sabrina carpenter at the arena, or you can go see blink 182 at the casino. Like, well, go see blink.

John Shull 1:02:56

182 Yeah, that's a great and, like, you're excited as shit, right?

Nick VinZant 1:03:00

And blink. 182 like all the kids, they play at seven, they're done at 830 Yeah.

John Shull 1:03:08

Except, man, it costs so much money to see those bands. It's insane.

Nick VinZant 1:03:12

Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go to a concert now, I'm not paying over 100 bucks. Like, Get out of here with that number two. Are we entering two?

John Shull 1:03:20

We are. I don't really know how to sum this one up, other than to just kind of say, but it's, it's basically just just feeling old, like things that you've experienced where it's like, man, yeah, I went, you know, I went through 911 it feels like it was just five days ago. Oh no. It was 20, you know, plus years ago. Like, oh and shit,

Nick VinZant 1:03:45

when the kids today are learning about things in the history books that you live through,

John Shull 1:03:50

sure, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like, the great the you know, the millennia turnover from 99 to 2000 like, okay, yeah, that feels like it was five. Oh no, it was 26 years ago. Five years ago. Well, yeah, sorry, 25 but it's like I was a teen. Oh no. Like, just time, man, time just makes you feel old.

Nick VinZant 1:04:15

My number two is a one drink hangover. I had one drink and was hung over the next day, and not like a big one, like a legitimate one shot drink, and had a hangover until like 11am the next day, which is a really long time when you wake up at like six.

John Shull 1:04:35

Good did you I mean, what? Please tell me it was like a light beer, a PBR or something?

Nick VinZant 1:04:41

No, it was some kind of hard alcohol.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:45

Sure you didn't get drugged.

Nick VinZant 1:04:46

Maybe I would hope so. But I was like, am I hung over off of one drink from the night before?

John Shull 1:04:55

Yes, that's pretty good. I. Actually, the older I get, I get a lot of people asking me, like, what is your tolerance? Like, what does it take to get you drunk? And I don't think that's a compliment. I think that just means I drink a lot.

Nick VinZant 1:05:13

How many do you have? How many would it take to get you drunk?

John Shull 1:05:17

I mean, I mean hard liquor, obviously. I mean, if I did five or 678, shots is going to get me there. But, I mean, I can drink beer over the course of 5678, hours and not feel anything. But I also have to give a shout out to somebody I know. His name's Andy, who can put out, put down probably 30 beers in eight hours, and he would still be sober as a bird. So, oh

Nick VinZant 1:05:41

man, I'm right at three or four, if I have three or four now, Whoo, yeah. But I do a lot of I do a lot of

John Shull 1:05:50

other stuff. You do a lot of things that we probably shouldn't

Nick VinZant 1:05:54

Well, I mean, it's legal in many states, so I think it's fine, but I don't know how the algorithm feels, especially saying cross fading, I believe is what the kids call it.

John Shull 1:06:06

So my number one is actually something you talk about all the time with me, and that that basically is just like my topics of conversation have changed as I've gotten older. Like, 20 years ago, it was about drinking and girls and clubs and, you know, man, I can't wait for work to be done so I can go home and work out and go, you know, go drinking. Now, it's like, you know, you get together with your friends, and it's, you know, man, did you see so and so they bought a house or so and so's kids or 401, K's, or politics. It's just like, just talk older. Like, it's just boring.

Nick VinZant 1:06:44

That's in my honorable mention is talking about property values. When you start talking about property values, that's a big sign that you're getting older. Like, Oh yeah, you drive by a house and you look up how much it costs.

John Shull 1:07:00

God, dang it. Well, I'm there. So

Nick VinZant 1:07:02

yeah, my number one, though, is actually my number one is you start talking about the weather all the time. The weather becomes like the second or third, most frequent topic that you talk about. The more you talk about the weather, the older you are getting.

John Shull 1:07:19

Well, because I do feel like the weather dictates a lot of things for a lot of people. Like, if you're old, you don't want to go out in crappy weather, right? You can wait till it's nicer weather, right?

Nick VinZant 1:07:31

The weather is much more of an influence on you as you get older. You don't understand. Like, when you're younger, you're just like, I don't care what the weather is, I'm still doing it.

John Shull 1:07:39

Yeah? Now you're going, well, it's gonna, I'm gonna go outside when it's five degrees and a T shirt and shorts, because I'm not gonna be cold.

Nick VinZant 1:07:46

I never understood people who brought a jacket out, like, we need bringing a jacket it's two degrees below zero, so I'm wearing a jacket, going in his T shirt and jeans.

John Shull 1:08:03

I mean, that depends. I mean, that's pretty I get

Nick VinZant 1:08:06

I'm sorry. Some people are tough. Other people are sitting there named you

John Shull 1:08:09

live in a state where you don't even get snow? Well, I live in Washington. No, you live in Seattle. That's not a state, that's a city, right? Yeah. But okay, okay, fine. You live in a city and a state that still doesn't get a lot of snow, except for, like, one mountain range.

Nick VinZant 1:08:27

Do you know how there's, like, a bunch of mountain ranges? Don't, don't get, don't you try to have a weather off with the locals? Okay? You want to have a weather off? I live next in Mount Baker. Mount Baker has the highest recorded snowfall on Earth ever, 1040 inches of snow. Don't come at me about the weather. Fact, son, it's gonna be a long day for you. What else you want to know about Washington weather? Tell you right now,

John Shull 1:08:52

I just want to know that if I ever come out there, can we go whale watching?

Nick VinZant 1:08:56

No, it's actually it's really boring. I think that was one of the worst times I've ever had in my life. Like we're gonna be on this boat. It's not real big. We're gonna be on it for the next five hours. Didn't see a damn thing.

John Shull 1:09:09

No, didn't see a thing. Get your money back.

Nick VinZant 1:09:14

I don't want to see like, I don't want to see animals in the wild. I want to see them from a very far. Did I want to see them on TV? I don't want to see animals in the wild. And the reason that I say that is, if you've seen a bunch of animals, you know, you don't really want to see a bear in the wild, because it might come after you, and then you're not going to end up very well. Do you have anything in your honorable mention things

John Shull 1:09:36

to do? I cannot run a bear. I ever tell you that

Nick VinZant 1:09:40

I'm not. I'm stopping it. I'm not. I'm not a bear runs five a bear can run 100 meter dash in five seconds. I'm stopping I'm not going into this with you in 2026 Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out and let us know. What are some signs that you noticed that just made you go, Oh, I'm getting older. For me, it's just really hit me in the last like six months. Oh, I'm not I'm middle aged, huh?

Hallmark Christmas Movie Screenwriter Rick Garman

From “Christmas on Cherry Lane” to “Oy! to the World”, Screenwriter Rick Garman has written more than 40 Christmas movies. We talk writing a Christmas movie, why people both love and love to hate Hallmark Christmas movies and the best Christmas movie of all time. Then, it’s Chocolate Chip and Snickerdoodle vs. Macaroons and Gingerbread Men as we countdown the Top 5 Cookies.

Rick Garman: 01:19

Pointless: 28:56

Top 5 Cookies: 47:33

Contact the Show

Rick Garman Website

Rick Garman Facebook

Interview with Christmas Movie Screenwriter Rick Garman

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, Christmas movies and cookies

Rick Garman 0:20

people have this tendency to put on Hallmark Channel at the beginning of countdown to Christmas, which now starts in October, and they just put the channel on and they leave it on if I have to write another script with a cute, precocious kid in it, I'm kind of done with the so I wrote the script, a couple of revisions of the script. They did all the pre productions, set everything up, filmed, it edited, it scored, it did everything, and got it on the air in 11 weeks, on New Year's Eve, I

Nick VinZant 0:57

want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he has written more than 40 Christmas movies. This is Hallmark Christmas movie screenwriter, Rick Garman, what makes a good Christmas movie, I

Rick Garman 1:21

think that it really sort of comes down to heart. There's always this sort of element of heart that you associate with Christmas in general, and having that as a through line, having that as as an underlying foundation of what you're doing, I think that that's a requirement for a Christmas movie on some level.

Nick VinZant 1:46

Would you say that applies to not just Hallmark Christmas movies, but all Christmas movies?

Rick Garman 1:52

Yes. I mean, I think that you would have a hard time identifying any Christmas movie die hard. I mean, he's doing it to save his his ex wife, and make sure that, you know, the family can be together at the end. You know, he's, yes, he's a cop, and he's trying to get through the building. He's trying to get the bad guys and all kind of stuff. But really, it's about saving this woman that he still loves, right? So there's an element of heart in it. Pick any Christmas, any Christmas movie, and you can find that as a foundation for just about any of them.

Nick VinZant 2:31

When, when you look at more of the kind of the Hallmark Christmas type movies, is there certain things that audiences want to see, like, Oh, they're going to want to see this. I got to put this in the script. I got to put that in the script.

Rick Garman 2:43

I think the central part of it is romance. All of the Hallmark Christmas movies have some sort of a romance element to it somewhere, and that has been shown time and time again to be what the audiences seem to really want and relate to. The rest of it is you have to have Christmas. And I know that that sounds reductive, but But what I mean by that is that you're probably not going to see too many, if any, Christmas movies on the Hallmark Channel set in Hawaii. You need snow. You need. You need Christmas. You need decorations. You need. You need to be sort of immersed in that Christmas world. And some of that is just because of the nature of the stories that are being told, but some of it also is because people have this tendency to put on Hallmark Channel at the beginning of countdown to Christmas, which now starts in October, and they just put the channel on, and they leave it on, and it's, it's, it becomes almost like part of the Christmas decoration of their house. They've got the tree, they've got the lights, they've got the stockings hung on the mantle, and they've got Christmas movies playing non stop on their television. And so if you have a Christmas movie that doesn't look Christmasy, it's suddenly doesn't become part of the it's not part of it doesn't it isn't part of the Christmas decorations anymore.

Nick VinZant 4:26

That's the thing that I wanted to ask you, right? So for me, the Hallmark Christmas movies, that type of thing. It's not something that I get. But other people seem to, like, absolutely love this. Yeah. What is that kind of about? Like, why is there one group that's like, what? What is this appeal and others that, oh, that is their jam to the nth degree.

Rick Garman 4:50

These movies make people happy. It's that simple. It's It's comfort food. It's two hours where, you know nobody's going to die. You know that. But even if there is a bad guy, they're not really bad, they're just kind of misguided, and they often learn their lesson at the end of it, you know, it's going to have a happy ending. You know, they're going to wind up together in the end, it's going to end with a kiss, and in a world gone mad, I don't know how anybody can look out the window or look on the news or anything and not think that the world has gone completely insane, having those two hours of comfort of of a happy ending. It just people. It makes people feel better. And you can see that, I think, in the kinds of shows and movies that are are becoming more and more popular, these sort of feel good comedies you see a lot in comedies these days. I'm going to point to show a show like Ted lasso, you know, which has enormous heart and characters that you want to root for, and you want everything to even though it's certainly edgier than a Hallmark movie, it's a feel good show. And I think that there's more and more of that happening because people are craving that kind of entertainment.

Nick VinZant 6:22

When these get made essentially, like, what's the process? Like? How do you get started? How long does it take? All that kind of stuff?

Rick Garman 6:30

Some projects are ideas that I come up with and I pitch to the people at the network. Others are ideas that other people have come up with, and they bring to me to write. Sometimes it's a book that gets adapted. I've done a few book adaptations. Sometimes it's a rewrite of a script. So somebody else has taken a stab at writing it, and they bring it to me to change it for whatever reason. There's a million different reasons that they might do that. So the way the projects originate is all over the place, and then the length of time it takes also can be all over the place. I'm working on, like I said, a movie for Christmas for next year. We started working on that a couple of months ago, and we developed the story. The story's been sort of bouncing around, and made a few changes. We're going to probably be going to script sometime after the first year, and then there'll be a development process through that, and then eventually they will greenlight the script and set it up for production, probably next fall, and then summer or fall, and then it'll be on Christmas, but, but sometimes that is truncated enormously, because they identify a hole in their schedule, and they say, We need another. It's it's now September, and we this other movie we thought was going to go through isn't. And now we have a hole in our schedule. And so what can we plug that hole with? You?

Nick VinZant 8:05

Can you can turn a Christmas movie that fast?

Rick Garman 8:08

The fastest one that I've ever done was in a Christmas movie. It was a holiday movie. It was Royal New Year's Eve I was on many years ago with Sam page and Jesse Schramm and Cheryl lad from Charlie's Angels. They came to me. I believe when I got the okay to start writing the script, between that moment and the time it was on air, was 11 weeks holy. So I wrote the script, couple of revisions of the script. They did all the pre productions, set everything up, filmed, it edited, it scored, it did everything, and got it on the air in 11 weeks on New Year's Eve.

Nick VinZant 8:55

That seems almost impossibly fast. It's insane,

Rick Garman 8:59

and and, the it was a much better movie than it had any right to be for having been done that fast. I usually I'm I have this reputation for being and and I am a very fast writer. I can usually knock out a draft, a first draft, in a week to 10 days, and then it'll go through a couple of, you know, it'll take time for them to get all their notes, and then I'll make those revisions in another few days, maybe a week. And then that's that they will take several months. Usually, they will take a month or two in the sort of pre pre production of saying where we're going to film it. We got to cast it, we got to do all that kind of stuff. But then once they're locked, they go into pre production, it's three weeks, and then they shoot them in three weeks, and then it's anywhere from a month to two months. Is sometimes a little longer to put it all together and get it ready for air.

Nick VinZant 10:04

I don't want to come off in a way that I don't necessarily mean, if that makes any sense, but I also want to ask this question at the same time. So is there then a balance between quantity versus quality when you look at this, is there a certain aspect of like, Look, you just got to feed the beast, so to speak. Or when you sit down and make these, you're really trying to make the best movie that I could possibly make. Or is it more like that's good enough? We got to get this done. I can

Rick Garman 10:33

only speak for myself. I have never turned in a script that I didn't believe in. I mean, it's that simple. I, like I said, I write very fast, but i have i i Don't turn things in unless I believe they're good and and I will tell them, you know, I will have this to you by this date. And if I get to that date and I don't think it's ready for them to see. I'll call them up and tell them that I need to work more on this. I'm not happy with this. I'm not whatever. So, yeah, I for me, I always turn in what I believe is the highest quality product. They might not think that. They might come back and say, No, we need to throw out, you know, the entire second half and redo it. But I believe in it, and, you know, that's the best that I can do.

Nick VinZant 11:30

That makes sense, right? And like, I'm kind of operating that same sense that I can go do as good a job in five minutes as I can in an hour. Yeah. Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions. Sure, is this genre growing shrinking or staying the same? When we look at Christmas movies,

Rick Garman 11:49

I think it's I think it's grown a lot over the last few years. I think it's sort of stable right now, maybe contracting a little bit, because a lot of people tried to come in, and they saw how successful Hallmark Hallmark was at it, and decided, we can do that. We can do that better. And then they got in the game, and they're like, maybe we can't I think the one thing that is changing, and this is changing all over the entertainment industry, is the budgets. The budgets are getting smaller

Nick VinZant 12:20

for like, your average Hallmark Christmas movie, what would be the total budget for a movie like that?

Rick Garman 12:25

It really, really varies. But two to 2.5

Nick VinZant 12:30

Do they have, and I don't know whoever they could potentially be in this circumstances, but do they have kind of a formula, like a way to produce these quicker? Are there sets dedicated to, etc, etc. Like, do they have a system in terms of getting these done?

Rick Garman 12:45

There are certain places where they film a lot of these movies. They and the companies affiliated that provide content film a lot of these movies because they know that there are actors and directors and crew that are there and talented and capable and ready to go. So you won't see as often. For instance, a lot of the movies are made in Canada, in various places in Canada, a lot around Vancouver, because there's a big production foundation. There so they can just plug in quickly and make the movie and get out

Nick VinZant 13:27

your favorite Christmas movie trope, your least favorite Christmas movie trope,

Rick Garman 13:33

favorite I, you know, I have a soft spot for the cookie baking scene I really do, or the baking, whatever scene, you know, the challenge is finding new and different ways into it. There the movie that I've got that'll be on December, starting December 14. Way to the world. There is a cookie baking scene in it, but the way that we get into that scene is different and interesting and very funny in that neither of them know what they're doing and and are very intimidated by it. So, you know, I have, I have a soft spot for that. Maybe it's because I like cookies, my least favorite, I'd say if I have to write another script with a cute, precocious kid in it, I'm, I'm kind of done with the I'll do it, and I'm pretty good at it. There were actually cute kids in this movie that's coming up, but that's my, sort of, my least favorite thing to write. I like writing grown ups,

Nick VinZant 14:44

kind of using again, the proverbial they will. They come back at you and be like, Oh, but you don't have the cute, precocious kid, Oh, you don't have the wise uncle in this one. Like, are there certain things that you you got to have that character there?

Rick Garman 14:58

My original. Ideas. When I send them in, it's, it's sort of mapped. And they're, they're hopping on board with that. Every now and then they might, they they might say something like, you know, it's more likely that they'll say, get rid of a character than add a character. But again, I've done so many of these. I know sort of what you need. You need the heroine and the hero, or the hero and the hero, or the heroine and the heroine. You know, they're doing more and more movies with LGBT representation in them, but you need the two main characters. Each of them has to have some sort of a confidant, you know, so somebody that they can talk to about what's going on so they have a best friend or a sister or a mother or whatever, there needs to be somebody who's usually causing some sort of a of anxiety for them, whether that's An actual antagonist or just a circumstantial person who's doing something that's causing some of the action to happen. And then you need, as in Christmas movies, at least, you need whatever represents family, whether that's actual family or a family, you know, a chosen family, you sort of have to have those but, I don't remember ever, anybody ever coming to me and saying, Hey, we need a cute kid, or we need the mayor, or we need the woman who owns the bakery. You know, all those trope characters that get made fun of a lot. I don't remember that ever happening.

Nick VinZant 16:37

Why is there always someone coming back to their small town to find their high school or forgotten love. Why is that such a big thing?

Rick Garman 16:47

Well, first of all, there's not. Certainly there are a lot of movies that have that concept. You know, we call her, I call her the hard working career gal from the big city who comes back to the small town that exists. The trope, it's there. It's made fun of for a reason. But if you were to watch all of the hallmark movies that are on this season, last season, the last few seasons, I think you would see that in a lot fewer of them than you expect, that that is a thing that I won't say that is purposefully stayed away from. But a lot of the stories have been told why it was popular and still is done every now and then, because it's a great movie setup. You know, it has nothing to do with it being, well, we can't think of anything else. It's just a great setup because, and if you think of that front for any movie there are. I mean, the one that's popping into my head right away is Sweet Home, Alabama. Reese Witherspoon, beloved movie. She's a hard working career gal who goes from the big city, who goes back to her small hometown, you know. So it's a great setup for character development, because you have somebody who is they have a life, and they have what they think is a purpose, and the things that they love and they want and and the things that they think that they want, and they have to go back and sort of solve some issues from their past to figure out what They really do want. That's just, that's just good drama. You know what? I mean, that's, that's good storytelling. It's a great way to kick off a story. But again, there are fewer and fewer of those that you will see out there. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 18:55

I mean, that makes sense to me, right? It's something that kind of resonates with everybody in one way or another. The idea of coming back home to the place that isn't home anymore. In some way,

Rick Garman 19:05

white people go to their reunions. You know, whether it's a high school reunion or a family reunion or whatever,

Nick VinZant 19:11

do the movies deserve more or less credit? Like, do you think that people who view them as artistic expressions? Do they deserve more credit than you think that they get, or do you think that they get the right amount? Or do they think that they deserve less credit?

Rick Garman 19:26

The jokey answer is, I think it would depend on the movie. But I you know, again, I've written a lot of these movies, and I know they get made fun of a lot. I've seen all the means, please stop sending them to me. I've seen them all. I've seen all the SNL parties. I've seen them all. I don't do these movies because I'm expecting awards. I'm not doing them because I'm expecting to be rich. I'm not doing them because I want the adulation. Of millions of adoring fans. I'm doing them because I get to tell. I get to make my living as a writer number one, and I get to tell what I hope are interesting stories with interesting characters and some fun dialog and hopefully make people laugh, and again, as going back to what was saying earlier, make people happy. I say this all the time in interviews and other things as well, but the movies that I've been involved with have been seen by literally 10s of millions of people. You know, 40 some odd movies. And who gets to say that the job that they do has made 10s of millions of people happy? Who gets to say that it's a very, very small group of people on this earth who have the privilege of being able to say that and to be a part of that? You know, I think there are worse things you could do with

Nick VinZant 21:01

your life. Where do you think they go in the future? I think they're

Rick Garman 21:05

going to continue to expand in terms of their storytelling. I think you'll always have sort of the traditional Christmas movie that will always exist, but I think you're going to see different types of storytelling. Again, I point to the Cherry Lane movies, which use sort of a, this is us kind of format. So there was a lot of bouncing back and forth in time. You know, now it's 1999 now it's 1973 so different storytelling devices, I think you're going to see more and more representation and diversity in not only the types of people that are in the leads and so on and so forth, but just the overall feeling of the movie, I think you'll see more stuff about chosen family as an example. You know, you'll there will continue to be more LGBT, more of different ethnic and racial backgrounds being able to tell more stories about, you know, having a lead that's divorced instead of never married, or having a lead that has lost a spouse, as opposed to, you know, just hasn't found the right guy You know. So, being able to find more ways to tell stories and more people to tell stories about I think that that's what you're going to see in

Nick VinZant 22:48

the future. What is your worst idea for a Christmas movie? The one that, in hindsight, you were like that was that was not a good that wasn't my best.

Rick Garman 22:57

The only thing that's popping to mind is is more about the very first movie that that I did for Hallmark was a movie called Christmas and homestead, and it's about a movie crew that comes to a small town to film a Christmas movie, and the movie star falls in love with The mayor of the town. And when I pitched that, before I'd written anything for Hallmark, I had sort of a much different idea of what that movie would be, all the way down to the title, the movie that became Christmas in Homestead, its original title was shooting Christmas, and why I thought that a movie called shooting Christmas, about shooting a movie, would ever wind up there? Yeah, that was probably a bad idea, but still, however, they saw past that, and saw the idea and made the movie, and it wound up being it's still one of my favorites.

Nick VinZant 24:02

So that's, what would you say is your favorite one, favorite one that you've done in your favorite Christmas movie overall? And if they're the same thing, they're the same thing.

Rick Garman 24:11

I the ones that I always go back to. I love the Cherry Lane movies. There were four of them because, again, it was a very different storytelling device, this sort of moving through one house over many years, being able to tell 12 different stories of nine different families, all with different makeups. You know, there's an LGBT couple, there's young people and older people and divorced people and you know, so all these different stories that we got. Some of them were more about friendships than they were about romance. I'm really proud of those movies, partly because they were very, very hard to write and keep everything sort of connected. So I always mention those. I think the other one that. Sort of Beloved, and that I still enjoy is a shoe addicts Christmas. It was Candace, Cameron beret, Luke McFarlane and Gene smart. So like, how do you how do you not love a movie with Gene smart

Nick VinZant 25:16

in it? Is there a part like, oh, for me, that's the easiest part of the story to write. That's the hardest part of the story that right is there a place that you struggle and a place that you just fly through.

Rick Garman 25:27

I'm usually better at beginnings and endings than I am at middles. And I think a lot of that's case for a lot of writers, you know, trying to figure out how you make things sort of continue. I love writing the meetings and the that sort of, I have a tendency to specialize in characters who butt heads. I don't write as many where, you know, it's that sort of instant falling in love and, you know, then there's some obstacle that keeps them apart, you know, but they're, they get along, and they're all romance. I don't do that very often. The ones that I have usually have really strong banter and back and forth between the lead characters. So I'm good at that. I'm usually pretty good at ending and finding some good ways to get people to tear up, maybe, but that middle is always a challenge.

Nick VinZant 26:24

That's pretty much all the questions we got. I know you got a new movie coming out. Tell me a little bit about that. What's it about? Where can people find it? That kind of stuff,

Rick Garman 26:32

all right. It is called, are you ready? Are you holding on and you're sitting down? Is called OI to the world. I didn't pick the title, so you can either credit me, or you can either credit me, nor blame me for that, depending on where your head is at. On on a movie called oy to the world. It is debuting on Hallmark Channel on Sunday, December 14, at eight, seven central and it is a story of a across the street from each other is a church and a synagogue, and the director of the kids choir at the church and the director that has been pulled in to direct the kids choir at the synagogue, they were intense rivals. When they were kids in high school, they knew each other since they were kids, they were friends. They became rivals. They competed on everything from debate team to the student council elections, and they just fought constantly when they were kids. So they get thrown back together when something happens at the synagogue, and the congregation of the synagogue has to move into the church for the Hanukkah services, and the choirs have to get combined, and they have to wind up working together. So it's a mash up of Hanukkah and Christmas. It's I got the opportunity to see a screener the other day. I love the way this movie turned out. I am so happy with it. Brooke Dorsey and Jake Epstein are the leads all the supporting characters. I wrote it, and it made me mainly because of their delivery in the way that they they done the movie. I wrote it and I laughed out loud at times. I think it's fun and funny and different and but still has all the things you want from a holiday movie. It's got lots of heart, it's got romance, it's got some really sweet scenes. It's got family, lots and lots of family. So I'm really proud of it.

Nick VinZant 28:33

I want to thank Rick so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description, and if you want to see some of these movies that he's talking about, the YouTube version of this interview is now live. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. If someone tells you they have a couple of something, do you think they mean specifically to, like, if I said, Hey, man, I got a couple of tickets, do you think, I mean, I have exactly two tickets? Or do you just think, Oh, they've got, like, less than five

John Shull 29:19

the couple of saying is just, it's just a saying. It could literally, you could say I have a couple, and it could just be like one large thing to me.

Nick VinZant 29:27

See, this must be like a Seattle slash Washington thing, because people here, when they say I have a couple, they mean specifically two. It's the only place I've ever lived out of like five or six states that I've lived in where a couple meant specifically two, not just kind of like, Hey, I got a few of these.

John Shull 29:48

Come on. Hold on, before we keep going on this. Tell me how crappy the lions are in the University of Michigan because their coach is a terrible person. Come on. Give it

Nick VinZant 29:58

to me. Do you know that? Coach is actually from my hometown.

John Shull 30:02

I did not but I've also been telling everyone about that, and I'm like, it doesn't surprise me, because Nick's a terrible human, and so, I mean, which, listen, I don't want to go on the record and say he's a terrible human, because I don't know him. He's, he's made, like, some mistakes. I mean, you have a newborn and you're still out there messing around with your side piece. But you know what? I'm confident saying? He's probably not the greatest person. But anyways, yes, he's from Derby, Kansas, of all places.

Nick VinZant 30:32

I think that if you are running around on your pregnant wife with another woman, and then you show up allegedly at their house and try to physically harm them. I think that you can say that they're probably not the best person in the world, but I am fascinated by this story because he's from my hometown, which is a town of about 20,000 people, and he went from being the pride and joy of Derby Kansas to being a persona non grata real quick, man, life can change so fast for you.

John Shull 31:01

That just shows how quickly, like, you can just be, like, turned on because, I mean, that guy had everything, and yes, he probably was going to get fired anyways, because he's not, he hasn't done a very good job, but he literally threw away like, 20 to $40 million

Nick VinZant 31:17

I'm fascinated by the idea of how you can be the hero one day and a villain the next, even though you for yourself, are exactly the same person like the public perception of him is completely different, but he's still exactly the same person that he was before.

John Shull 31:35

Rumor has it. And I think the Post New York Post posted this Friday, that hours after he got out of jail, he was DMing, and only fans model like, he's,

Nick VinZant 31:47

he's, he's caught up like, man. I mean, some people can't they,

John Shull 31:53

and it's, and it's sad, right? You feel for his family, but at the same point, it's like, man, just be a decent human. I don't understand. It's like that saying never meet your heroes or whatever, like, that's absolutely true. Oh, it's absolutely 100%

Nick VinZant 32:08

that's why I'm fascinated by how somebody could be, like I said, a hero one day and a villain the next. And in reality, they're exactly the same person, like he was allegedly not a great person when people considered him to be a hero, and then you just get exposed, but you're the same person, either way. Anyway, I hold the audience

John Shull 32:28

couple, because couple actually mean couple.

Nick VinZant 32:32

I don't feel like when somebody says a couple, I don't think of two. I don't take it in the literal sense, even though it has a literal meaning?

John Shull 32:41

Yeah, I don't either.

Nick VinZant 32:43

Apparently, I polled the audience about this, though it's split 5050, 50% of people think it means exactly two. 50% of people means it just means a small number of things, but not necessarily exactly two. Yeah.

John Shull 32:58

I mean, I mean, I would think it's probably pretty dumb. I also think some people are just like, I don't listen to people when they talk anyway, so I don't really give a shit. I feel like that's that's like the unless it's on social media now, or like a tagline, no one cares what anyone's saying. Do you feel that? Or is it just me?

Nick VinZant 33:16

Oh, I don't think people are generally really listening to other people. I Okay. What percentage would you say you are listening to another person when they are talking

John Shull 33:29

professional, professionally or personally?

Nick VinZant 33:34

Give me professionally first and then personally?

John Shull 33:37

Well, professionally, I that's a lot of my job, and I'm not I'm not shitting on it, but I spent a lot of my day listening to my employees or my co workers. So I'll say 80 to 80 to 100% there that I listen now, personally, no, it's like probably 20% at best.

Nick VinZant 33:58

Oh, I would say I'm probably right at around 50% both personally and professionally, professionally, I'm listening when I know it directly has to deal with me. But if it doesn't, if it's kind of like in my area, but I don't really know about it, I'm pretty much 100% tuned out. I would say it's around I would say 50% No, probably 60 to 70% professionally, 60 to 80% personally.

John Shull 34:31

Just make sure you're listening to your wife. That's all you gotta do. Exactly, I Wait. Am I your wife? I could I'll be your wife. I think we've, we've talked about this conversation, had this conversation

Nick VinZant 34:40

before. You want to be my wife.

John Shull 34:42

That's just, I mean, I don't want to talk about, I'd be your roommate, sure.

Nick VinZant 34:46

I mean, roommates a little bit different than wife, yeah, I wouldn't

John Shull 34:49

actually marry you.

Nick VinZant 34:52

Oh, you wouldn't put a ring on it. You just, usually, you just use me.

John Shull 34:58

You only can move back to dirt. Be Kansas. And you know, Sharon Moore is going to be there soon. Where else does he have left to go?

Nick VinZant 35:04

Where do you go back? Man, that's, that's a bad day.

John Shull 35:10

So, yeah, it's a terrible day. All right. You ready for some shout outs?

Nick VinZant 35:17

You we can do shout outs, or otherwise, I had, I have a new game that I was going to play celebrity acquaintances.

John Shull 35:29

Okay, all right, I'm listening.

Nick VinZant 35:31

Okay, so I'll say a celebrity's name, and then you say the name of the very next celebrity you associate them with. You ready, sure. Keanu, Reeves,

John Shull 35:46

Lawrence Fishburne,

Nick VinZant 35:49

oh, from the matrix, okay, yeah, I think immediately of the lady from the matrix, whose name I don't

John Shull 35:55

know, Carrie and moss, I think carry on moss I

Nick VinZant 35:59

also would have accepted for him, Patrick Swayze and the guy from Bill and Ted,

John Shull 36:05

I quickly went matrix and Bill and Ted. For some reason, the only Bill and Ted character I could think of was George Carlin so

Nick VinZant 36:13

Scarlett Johansson,

Unknown Speaker 36:16

Colin Jost, it's pretty easy.

Nick VinZant 36:19

Oh, you went relationship, right? She's with the guy with, yeah.

John Shull 36:23

I mean, yeah, that's and I've always wondered, like, he just seems like a goofy guy. And listen, that's fine. I'm not saying goofy guys can't get some of the most gorgeous women on earth, but I just wonder, how did that happen?

Nick VinZant 36:36

The first person I think of is the guy from Stranger Things. I think of David harbor for some reason, because they were both in like a Guardians movie. Okay, that's the person I think of.

John Shull 36:50

That's a deep cut, but okay, the rock, oh, I mean the first, the first person that popped up was stone cold. Steve Austin,

Nick VinZant 36:59

oh, I think of Kevin Hart.

John Shull 37:03

I don't think of the rock as an actor, per se still. I mean, he will always, forever be the WWE icon to me before acting, that's, that's the only ones I had do this. I mean, that was, that was fun, quick, fast. Good football is that, is that a Huskies

Nick VinZant 37:27

sweatshirt to your it is a husky sweatshirt, right? You're such a fair weather fan, unlike you, I live in an area that actually has some sort of positivity associated with their sports teams.

John Shull 37:41

So does Detroit the Red Wings are good? Oh, you don't even, don't even shit on hockey.

Nick VinZant 37:49

What a hockey What do you? How do you play that I'm not familiar with that. That's not a sport that you see talked about in the national blank lexicon. Is it on TV? Has it ever been on TV?

John Shull 38:02

Yeah, yeah, it has. It's fine.

Nick VinZant 38:05

Spell it. Addy, spell it.

John Shull 38:06

Let's not get into this. H I don't want to get into having to prove why Detroit is a sports town to you.

Nick VinZant 38:13

Oh, I'm sure it's a sports town. It's just not a one that wins. All the cities

John Shull 38:17

you've ever lived in that I'm that I'm aware of are not sports cities.

Nick VinZant 38:22

Derby Kansas, my hometown, state champs like 50,000 times. I come from a Sports City. It's winning Sports City. I know that you don't understand what that's like to be from a place where winners live, but so that's

John Shull 38:33

okay on the derby high school hall of fame, is it you? And then Sharon Moore, oh, I

Nick VinZant 38:40

think I'm probably above him now. Think His name has been taken off the list.

John Shull 38:46

All right, so am I still doing shout outs, or do we both get replaced waiting for you? You're just waiting for me to shout it out loud. Kiss. Reference, what a great band Kiss was over. All right, I'm not a fan. Let's see Rodney Hawaiian, Yvonne fuller burl Martinez, Johnny Walsh, Mark Luna Isaac, Barnett, Sadie Mays caramel, Holt, Courtney, Owen and Toby Clements.

Nick VinZant 39:16

You think somebody is really named caramel? It

John Shull 39:20

might have actually been so is it, is it caramel

Nick VinZant 39:23

or caramel? I say caramel,

John Shull 39:27

I guess I do too. Is it spelled caramel? Like, what's your next caramel? Spelled caramel?

Nick VinZant 39:34

Yeah, okay, cool.

John Shull 39:38

All right, let's see. So just just a few quick stories from the past week of my life. Oh, okay, okay. I was scrolling social media late last week. You know, you know Facebook? Well, they all do this, but Facebook will bring up, like, there will be just random videos, like shorts, and there are a lot of times women, and they're like, you know, my first date was this, and that blah, blah, blah was terrible, and that's why I'm with this person. And Nick I'm not kidding you. There was a woman on there who said that she lived in Orlando about 10 years ago, went on a first date with a guy who took her to a steak house in downtown Orlando. Okay? Like it, like it was the whole story. I've said on here a few times. They sat down, she tells the guy that you know he's and this is where it's not me, but she tells the guy that you know she doesn't think he's very good looking. And she gets up and leaves, and then he continues to cry and chase her out of the restaurant. But I'm telling you, she looks exactly like the person that I that I went on, that I remember going on a first date with, except her name isn't the same name, but all the details were the same. Oh, man. So I'm half tempted. I mean, I'm sure I can't find it now, but in the moment, I was half tempted to, like, try to, like, send her page, like, a direct message, and be like, hey, like, but how would I do that? I would come across as a creep, right? And, like, my wife probably wouldn't appreciate that. It's just It was wild, like I learned similar I stayed up the entire night, like I was just baffled. I was like, Is this an Al is this an AI joke? Is it like an algorithm? Like it was it was insane. It was nuts.

Nick VinZant 41:21

I would think that, given your dating history, the previous relationship that talks about you the most is probably the person who wondered what you got ran over by sheep. I would think that that is the family that probably talks about you as an ex boyfriend, the most like you probably get brought up a lot about as the ex boyfriend who got ran over by a sheep.

John Shull 41:48

That was definitely the relationship that if that relationship had never happened, I never would have met you. So you can thank her and her family for me leaving Michigan and going to Florida. Man, Okay, anyways, so that's the second thing. Third thing is, I am officially a recognized professional wrestling champion.

Nick VinZant 42:13

Okay, go on, go on.

John Shull 42:15

So I want to tell one story, and I'll make it as quick as possible, because no one probably cares listening to this. So I'm part of a group. We've been building up a match, and this past weekend was this superior championship wrestling's biggest event of the year. Standing room only. There was probably between 205 100 people packed into this little skate park, right? It's a good amount of people. Anyways, the big spot was, it was a triple threat. The big spot was one of the guys, one of the competitors, was going to jump off like this, 20 foot, like scaffolding, right? Yeah. And there's going to be eight, eight of us to catch him, because if we don't catch him, he hits concrete and he's dead. I mean, it's that crazy. So we get over to where the spot is going to happen. Some things are supposed to happen. And I look up and he's like, ready to jump. And I look up and I'm like, oh shit, I need to get over there, because there's literally nobody that's supposed to catch him there. So I grab a couple of guys, and he's false as we're running into

Nick VinZant 43:17

position. Oh, maybe he should have looked

John Shull 43:19

and like, I take the brunt of it and like, he falls on top of me. I fall into a family. Like, it worked, but like, That was scary as hell. Like, and I know, I know you make fun of professional wrestling. Maybe everyone else does. Like, yes, some of it's scripted, but like, You got to be an athlete. Like, I don't know for he did a front flip. I don't know how I caught him. Like, I got this giant bruise across my right tit going down my stomach because, like, he kicked the shit out of me, coming down. Like, but anyways, we get back up, we finished the match, and I'm part of, I'm part of the of a championship now.

Nick VinZant 44:01

So you are on the championship team. How do you feel about this? Like, do you feel like? Do you feel like a better man today than you were the start of this weekend?

John Shull 44:10

You know? I so this is indie wrestling. I don't want anyone to think that this is like the big time, but it is followed. And I will tell you I now understand why people like Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, why they did it until they were dead? Well, flair is not dead, but like they would, they'll continue to do it until they're dead. Like even in front of 50 people like you get a high and I can't explain it.

Nick VinZant 44:38

Oh, I always wondered how those like athletes must have a really hard time after they leave the spotlight, because you could never, you could never replace that all of those people who are essentially there just watching you and cheering you on,

John Shull 44:53

like that happened, you know that spot, which was towards the end of the match, and I kind of blacked out, because apparently the crowd started like. This is awesome chant, and they went crazy. I don't remember any of that like so I couldn't even imagine walking into a stadium like John Cena in front of 65,000 people all like that would be incredible. Anyways, I won't go on, but yes, I am a professional wrestling champion. My fear of my tribal leader. Brandon Hudson is the talent, and I'm just tagging along. I was

Nick VinZant 45:28

wondering why you sent me a picture of a hat that looked like you'd ripped off part of the label. I was like, What is this?

John Shull 45:34

There was a wrestling after party and like, groupies came out. That was my first time ever, right?

Nick VinZant 45:39

Ooh. Like, was Mrs. Sure there? Did you think about crossing the line?

John Shull 45:46

No, no, I, I, once again, it's pathetic to say this out loud, but like, so I volunteered, right? We don't get paid for this, yeah, but like, you get there at four o'clock, we didn't go on till 830 like, you're just, you're just building up to this moment. Like, I was exhausted by the end of the night, like, so I had a couple of bourbons and got out of there.

Nick VinZant 46:10

So then, when's the next big date? When are you gonna defend your title?

John Shull 46:14

So February, we're doing a in ring ceremony, I'm told, where we're gonna have a celebration, and then we're gonna, we're gonna fight. I don't even know who it is. Well, I do know who it is, but I'm not gonna say it out loud yet.

Nick VinZant 46:27

Oh, okay, keep the mystery anyway. Good.

John Shull 46:29

So, yeah, so, so it's, yeah. All I will say is, I've had a lot of in this sounds so dumb, but I've had a lot of people in my life be like, Man, that's awesome, John. Like, you know you went, you're doing it, blah, blah, blah, like you're living a dream. That's all I'll say is, go live your dreams. Life's too short. It's indie wrestling. It's not WWE. I'm never gonna sniff that. But like, it's just fun. Like, just go if you want to do something, go do it. I don't know what else.

Nick VinZant 46:56

I'm a firm believer that you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it. Yeah.

John Shull 47:01

Like, I'm a bodyguard. Like, I'm his bodyguard, and I have built a character to where people think I'm a tough guy. Like, it's amazing. Like, in my the main guy of the group is an anchor at the at the TV station I work at, the nicest guy ever. And he's, like, he he comes off in character as, like, the most vile, evil person. Like, it's fun to play characters like that, like it's just, yeah, it's just different.

Nick VinZant 47:25

So do you have anything else? Are you ready to go on here?

John Shull 47:29

No, I mean, I'm ready to go on. I'm just happy to be here in one piece.

Nick VinZant 47:33

So our top five is top five cookies. What's your number five?

John Shull 47:39

So first off, I have to ask you how like did you go generic? Or did you go, like, holiday cookie specific only? Or did you go generic?

Nick VinZant 47:48

I went like generic cookie, the type of cookie generally. I didn't go like, Oreo double stuff or something like that.

John Shull 47:57

All right, perfect. Then, then we should be able to get on with this top five. So my number five are peanut butter cookies. Okay, okay, okay, pretty boring, but, like, they're delicious.

Nick VinZant 48:10

So I'm gonna have a really hard time with any cookie that's not chocolate. Like, if to me, if it's not chocolate, why would I bother with it?

John Shull 48:22

I actually, I'm I have, I think only have one chocolate cookie on my list.

Nick VinZant 48:27

Oh, well, that's not very good list. Then I guess my number five is a fortune cookie. Fortune Cookie is the funnest cookie. Okay, it's the funnest cookie. It's the most exciting cookie. It's really, it's like a two for one. You get to eat something, get a little surprise, although they used to give you, like, real fortune, and now they're more just like, be a nice person today.

John Shull 48:53

It's fine, like, the cookies suck, like you're only doing it to eat the wrapper, or eat the wrapper. See the fortune, but like, do you eat the cookie before you look at the Fortune?

Nick VinZant 49:07

Yeah, I think so. I don't remember, like, what you're supposed to do if you're supposed to eat the cookie and then look at the Fortune, or look at the fortune and then eat the cookie. But I don't buy into that kind of stuff. I'm not really a superstitious person.

John Shull 49:19

I know my number four are gingerbread cookies.

Nick VinZant 49:24

Oh, okay,

John Shull 49:26

that actually, they might actually be my favorite cookie, but I couldn't put them in the top three because, you know, you just can't. But I love gingerbread cookies. They are, man, you get that mix of cinnamon, maybe, maybe some nuts in there too.

Nick VinZant 49:42

Oh, oh, boy. My number four is macadamia nut.

John Shull 49:47

Okay, I do lick me some good nuts and some cookies.

Nick VinZant 49:50

I know you do more nuts you can get in your mouth, the better. It's what you've been saying for years.

John Shull 49:57

Have I been saying that for years? Long?

Nick VinZant 50:00

Long time. You did ask about marrying me earlier.

John Shull 50:05

I did, you know what? Listen, if we were both going that way, I would sure. I don't care whatever.

Nick VinZant 50:12

I don't know you're more of a I might date you. I don't know if I'm gonna marry you.

John Shull 50:16

Yeah, that's fine. So my number three is going to be controversial, okay, but it is a cookie and it is a biscotti.

Nick VinZant 50:26

Oh, those I'm not concerned with. Like, whether or not it's actually a cookie, to me, that's just a waste. Oh, no. Like, this is not a good cookie. Like, why? Why waste things? You got peanut butter? Like that, to me is, like, what do you want? Do you want steak? You want hot dogs, you want cheeseburgers. You want pizza. You want nachos. Would you like this nice salad?

John Shull 50:49

Don't, don't rule out a biscotti like it is. It is the most dunkable kind of cookie there is on the face of the earth, right?

Nick VinZant 50:59

But then imagine if you got a good cookie and dunked it.

John Shull 51:04

I mean, I understand what you're saying, but biscotti with the you know what? The usually the dark chocolate on the bottom with the walnut. Still, I want to go get some right now, stick it. I want to dip it in something right now and eat it.

Nick VinZant 51:20

My number three is a kiss cookie, one of those cookies that you put, like Hershey's chocolate kisses in. They got like a candy in the middle. That's a good cookie.

John Shull 51:32

Yeah, those are, those are just okay to me, just meh. I like them, but I like them, but they're just, they're just Okay,

Nick VinZant 51:40

okay, okay. I mean, I could have some more respect for your list if you didn't have biscotti on there, but

John Shull 51:47

Scotties are delicious, and I think you need to give it a give it a try. Get a some biscotti. You know what I do? Actually, one of my terrible things is, if I have a yogurt in the house, I'll use the biscotti as a spoon, and I'll eat the

Nick VinZant 52:03

that's disgusting to me. Yogurt is one of those foods that like, I like it, but I don't really enjoy eating it. Like, oh, I don't really want to eat this.

John Shull 52:13

I mean, what's not to like about yogurt? Everybody likes yogurt. Everybody likes,

Nick VinZant 52:22

Oh, I like it, but I just don't like the consistency of it,

John Shull 52:27

all right. So my number two is a, once again, I think it's going to be maybe controversial, because I feel like a lot of people don't like these, but I love them. And it is an oatmeal raisin cookie

Nick VinZant 52:37

that, to me would be like, No, I love that. To me is a cookie like that is, to me, is the most overrated cookie you can think of. Like oatmeal. Raisin is not menu.

John Shull 52:50

If you make it just right, once again, the spices are key. And if you get, like, just the if it's warm with the spices and raisin, it's like a nice candle. Just goes down easy. Just flows well

Nick VinZant 53:03

again, though, like it that, to me, is just the kind of thing. It's like, oh, wow, that's really good. Imagine if I put this level of preparation and detail into some a cookie that was actually better. Like, imagine if you cooked a if you make a really good oatmeal raisin cookie, imagine how much better your other cookies. My number two is a sandwich cookie, also known as a whoopie pie.

John Shull 53:29

Oh, okay, okay. Like, are those the ones you buy, right? Like, with the cream in the

Nick VinZant 53:34

middle? Yeah, you can make them too. I think,

John Shull 53:37

okay, yeah, just, I mean, that's peculiar, but I can't say anything because I have oatmeal raisin and biscotti on my list.

Nick VinZant 53:43

Yeah, your list is really snobby. It's really snobby. It's not it's a snobby list. It's just not like it's not a list of the people. Mine is a list of the people. Yours is a list of like the bourgeoisie. Yours is a list of the fancy people. I'm in the cheap seats and you're down there box level.

John Shull 54:05

I'm guessing that our number one is probably the same chocolate chip. Yeah, it can, I mean, it can only be chocolate chip.

Nick VinZant 54:14

It can only be chocolate chip. Number one has to be chocolate chip.

John Shull 54:18

Now, with what you just said, you are correct. Like, I'm not gonna go for like, just a regular chocolate chip cookie. Like, I need to have, like, huge chunks of chocolate, or, you know, something like, it needs to be altered a little bit, but still be a chocolate chip cookie. If that makes any sense.

Nick VinZant 54:36

Can it be regular chocolate? Does it? Can it be like, Hershey's chocolate, or does it have to be something imported from the mountains of Brazil to satisfy your fancy tastes. There Fancy Pants

John Shull 54:45

needs to be 98% cacao. I was when I

Nick VinZant 54:49

was running. It's like, is he gonna say Coco or cacao? Do you have anything in your honorable mention? Because I'm getting really hungry.

John Shull 54:57

No, I I was gonna put like. An ice cream sandwich cookie. But, you know, like a Klondike bar type of thing.

Nick VinZant 55:05

But, oh, I thought you were talking about some kind of golf club,

John Shull 55:10

a sandwich, yeah? Oh, I see what you're saying. I hate you, yeah. There we go.

Nick VinZant 55:19

Got him the only other ones I could put on the honorable mention I could do snicker snickerdoodle.

John Shull 55:24

Not ever had a snickerdoodle before.

Nick VinZant 55:27

Well, then you're not, you're not a man in the people. You're not a man in the people. How are you gonna go and take off in your wrestling career when you're not a man in the people? What are they gonna find? What are the fans gonna find out when you're this hoity, toity. What if? What if? Trust upper class, upper class guy, right? What kind of man of the people you shouldn't be wrestling. You should be out there playing Polo.

John Shull 55:52

Dude, I can't have you ever, have you ever played water polo? No, yeah, no, I don't want to. That looks extremely difficult.

Nick VinZant 55:59

That looks really hard. I don't want to do anything that is that difficult. I don't really difficult. I don't really don't want to be in water. I'm good. I don't want to play any games in water unless it's Marco Polo. That's it.

Unknown Speaker 56:11

Marco Polo.

Nick VinZant 56:14

Maybe fish out of water. No, well, fish out of water is part of Marco Polo. I could do Sharks and Minnows. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best types of cookies. Chocolate Chip is the only acceptable answer for number one. It's the only one. Even if you cannot have chocolate or chips or cookies, chocolate chips still should be acknowledged as number one. It's that dominant.