From Jeffrey Epstein and faking the moon landing, to chemtrails and who really killed JFK, Social Psychologist Dr. Daniel Jolley has spent his life studying conspiracy theories.
We talk why people are drawn to conspiracy theories, what all major conspiracy theories have in common and the wildest conspiracy theories he’s ever heard.
Then, in the pointless part of the show, we countdown the Top 5 Life Lessons We Learned the Hard Way.
Dr. Daniel Jolley: 01:08
Pointless: 26:23
Top 5 Life Lessons: 50:11
Interview with Conspiracy Theory Researcher Dr. Daniel Jolley
Nick VinZant 0:00
Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode conspiracy theories and hard truths
Dr. Daniel Jolley 0:20
in those moments, we seek answers. We seek certainty. We want to know what is going on. Beyonce is a robot because it's all about making more money. Some scholars actually think that actually, back in the day, conspiracy theories could actually have an evolutionary advantage.
Nick VinZant 0:40
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because from Jeffrey Epstein and the moon landing to chemtrails and who really killed JFK, he has spent his life researching conspiracy theories. This is social psychologist Dr Daniel jolly. Why are we drawn to conspiracy theories?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 1:10
I think it can all be trickled down to us trying to make sense of a really complex world that we live in, and conspiracies typically arise when that complication really ramped up. So it could be during a moment of crisis, which could be personal, so making your own life, or it could be societal. So, you know, a virus outbreak political change, something that really kind of frustrates some of the needs that we have, and we're in those moments we seek answers. We seek certainty. We want to know what is going on. And a conspiracy theory can often offer a simple explanation for what that complex kind of crisis is kind of happening in front of us,
Nick VinZant 1:55
the idea that they make sense of a complex world, but the conspiracy theories that at least I'm aware of like that doesn't make any sense. It always seems like, yeah, you're simplifying something. But the conspiracy theory is far more complex than the actual thing that's happening. The idea that kind of, no, the person that I voted for isn't lying to me. The real truth is it's a deep state and the President's been cloned like
Dr. Daniel Jolley 2:24
it offers that certainty in a sense of it feels way more in essence. You can hold on to it and go, Wow, look, hey, this is what's happening behind the scenes, whereas typically, the official explanation often isn't as interesting, often isn't as entertaining. Often doesn't kind of tickle the needs that we have where we want to understand what is happening in a particular issue. And indeed, the conspiracy can point the finger that. That's what makes it simpler, in the sense that it can point the finger at a group that typically you don't like or a group that you don't find trustworthy, it's is also that interconnect, intergroup phenomenon where it's us versus them.
Nick VinZant 3:07
Is this the kind of thing that only happens to certain people, or can everybody kind of get into this?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 3:17
So there's not a profile of who's more likely to believe in a conspiracy theory, or rather, who is a conspiracy theorist? I often think that actually, in the right circumstance, anyone could be drawn into a conspiracy theory, because in a way, when you may have the skill set to kind of evaluate and to criticize, but when you are feeling anxious and threatened and your self image is frustrated. It can be difficult to try and think clearly through the skill sets that may have been taught at school, for example. So we know that if you're discriminated against, you're more likely to believe in conspiracy theories, partly because you have actually been at the brunt of a conspiracy against you and your group, and as such, it makes you see the world through this conspiratorial lens. It can also, of course, be, you know, down to our personality. There are some studies that have shown that if you're more narcissistic, you potentially are more conspiratorial, and that's probably because you have a real desire to have a positive image of yourself and your group. So as such, you're really leaning into the idea that the other group are doing bad things.
Nick VinZant 4:22
Is it tied to intelligence in any way? So there is, there
Dr. Daniel Jolley 4:26
is work demonstrating that those who typically have lower Well, typically who who have less education, shall we say, so less likely to go into university, are slightly more conspiratorial. But it can also be, as I mentioned, the most intelligent, also still being conspiratorial. I think it definitely is a safeguard, because it gives you ie education, obviously gives you the gives you skill sets to be able to navigate the world. And of course, the world's even more complex than it was before, with the internet and all matter if. Information that we're exposed to. But I don't feel it's it's a makes you, it's a silver bullet, whereby that if you're feeling anxious, you can suddenly use these skill sets, potentially, it's a mixture of being able to have the skills, maybe through education or through other means, but also be able to maybe regulate your emotions, kind of deal with that moment of crisis, in that moment, then be able to use your skill sets. So as I say, whilst evidence would suggest education absolutely plays a role, I think, I personally think it's more complicated than that, and that could explain why you do get a variety of different people believing in conspiracies.
Nick VinZant 5:35
How come we don't self correct? Well?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 5:39
With self correction. In essence, it's been aware of what the truth is. So I'm using the word truth to be what we see the truth to be. Often, truth can come from gatekeepers of knowledge. So that could be scientists, that could be the government. But of course, if you are distrusting of those groups, you don't trust scientists to tell you the truth about vaccination. For whatever reason, you are going to digest content, news, information from your family, your friends through that kind of lens of distrust. So in a way, you probably won't necessarily be aware that you're necessarily doing that. So it could be really difficult to kind of self correct you in that moment. I've been interested. Some of the work has demonstrated that people who are more likely to believe in conspiracies are to say, I'm a critical thinker. I you know, I think for evidence, I ask questions. But then objectively, when people were given critical evaluation measures and kind of different behavioral tasks, they actually was were not critical with the information that they digested. So as such, they thought they were being critical, but in actual fact, they were not, which kind of leads into the point there about self correction in sense of they may perceive they are, but in reality they are not. That's
Nick VinZant 6:57
what I was okay. I don't think I'm going to ask this question very well, but hopefully it kind of makes sense. Are conspiracy theories the symptom or the disease in the sense that, let's say I believe in chemtrails? Is it really just about chemtrails, or is it about the idea that I don't trust the government does belief in a conspiracy theory symbolize a belief, a broader belief in everything else.
Dr. Daniel Jolley 7:27
Yes, it's a symptom, in the sense of people will be drawn in by certain types of conspiracy theories that I'll say that is true, but it really does kind of grapple with one's worldview. In essence, the lens that someone perceives the world to be in. So if you see the world full of conspiracies, you will likely see conspiracies wherever you kind of look. You know, if conspiracies exist in climate change or the poly existing vaccination political change, you know, virus outbreaks, you're really kind of hang together because, you know, it's kind of difficult to imagine a time where, let's say you distrust the government, but you think, Oh, actually, I distrust them in climate change, but not in vaccination. Like, it probably kind of really hangs together that if that distrust is there and that cynicism is there about that one issue, it's going to bleed in to hold other things
Nick VinZant 8:21
full disclosure, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories, simply because you can't get two people to show up at a party on time. I don't think that you can simply because of logistics like, like, to me, the logistics argument crushes all conspiracy theories. But we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but to be more specific, of it, like, are they dangerous? Is this ultimately a dangerous thing, or you don't believe the moon landing was real, so what?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 8:51
So I think it's a good one to start with, with the moon landing in that in isolation, it does feel like a bit of fun. It feels like how exciting to think about, you know, to theorize about the moon and all never happened and what was going on. But of course, that can also breed distrust, right? So, like, if you're exposed to this content, let's say you come neutral towards this, and you expose this content, maybe over a period of time, it was part of your rhetoric. Well, that's going to really question how you know your trust in in NASA, in trust in science, trust in other types of kind of Moon expeditions you're going to Mars, it makes you question, you know, what else have they been involved in? And, of course, therefore, if you're not trusting science, that could really impact how you engage with scientific issues. So you know whether you want to get vaccinated, whether you you know want to reduce your common footprints because of climate of climate change happening, so suddenly, you can see how distrust in one issue can suddenly bleed into distrust in other issues another consequence. Course, is that you are pointing the finger at different conspirators and blaming them for the wrongdoing. You know, that could be the government, but it could also be different minority groups who you find to be threatening, and as such, that has therefore been linked with, you know, the uptick potentially violent extremism towards those groups, which, of course, can be the government, but also can be many other different groups? You know that is where a real, kind of clear danger comes in conspiracy theories, that they can be used as a way to kind of, well, actually, I better go and stop the conspiracy. I better go and stop that group doing that bad thing. Are
Nick VinZant 10:35
there certain aspects of a conspiracy theory that will really make it stick, like if it has this, this and this, so to speak, that's
Dr. Daniel Jolley 10:43
really going to catch hold. So conspiracy theories can be kind of complicated to kind of get right. You know, I bet if you were to look at the internet, there's probably 1000s of different types of theories that are out there, but only some of them really kind of tickle people's fancies, really, kind of address some of those needs, in a way, really has to have a clear group. That group has to be perceived to be threatening and perceived to be powerful. So it cannot be, for example, me or teenagers. It has to be the government has to be, you know, scientists has to be a tangible group, and they have to, you know, be do something that kind of makes sense for that group, you know, to plot and plot and scheme, to cover up different facts, but vaccination, for example, and then the motive has to, again, make sense. It can't just be, you know, to for fun, for whatever reason has to be, you know, for, usually, self interest, for profit, for control. So therefore you could suggest that scientists cover up the facts about vaccination for profit. Suddenly, that's a conspiracy theory that can make sense if you swap out one of the ingredients, and suddenly you say teenagers are covering up vaccination for profit. That doesn't make sense. That's what makes me think about popular conspiracy theories, is that they really got those ingredients in hand. And actually, you can map these conspiracy these ingredients back to all different types of conspiracy theories. I don't think there's anything unique about climate change, vaccination, intergroup conspiracies, because they all kind of come from this, kind of, like, almost this recipe of how to make the perfect conspiracy theory.
Nick VinZant 12:27
Are you ready for some harder slash, listener submitted questions. Cool. What would you say is the most popular one?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 12:36
I'd say popular ones are really geared around political and that's probably because people, of course, have such have their political orientation can be so important to them, and, you know, it really kind of governs their day to day. So believing in conspiracies about, you know, the election has been wreaked that can be really kind of powerful, but it's worth noticing that that can switch around depending on who is in power. It doesn't matter necessarily the group is in power, for example, Republicans or Democrats. It depends on election night. You typically the group, whoever it is who loses, are more likely to say it's rigged. And that doesn't matter who they are.
Nick VinZant 13:16
It's always fascinating. It's like, if I win, it's not rigged. If I lose, it's rigged. And there's
Dr. Daniel Jolley 13:23
data that some political scientists have looked at, and they can see how the conspiracy belief about being rigged can pretty much change overnight. The
Nick VinZant 13:32
wildest one that you're familiar with, one that you're like, Oh God, I How did that? How did you get that from that?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 13:40
So a wild one I always so I asked some students a few years ago about some theories that they know of, they've heard of, and one person said to me that they they've heard that Beyonce is a robot, because it's all about making more money from her, from her, you know, her dancing, from her Music. I thought, Oh, wow. Okay, Beyonce being a robot. So of course, I Googled it, as anyone should, and then there's loads of pictures of here's Beyonce and his Beyonce as a robot. Here she's a robot. You can tell from her eyes that she's a robot. So I thought that was the most bizarre one. But I guess it leans into conspiracies about popular culture, you know, so suggesting that certain celebrities have died and been replaced by a look alike, you know, like Avril Lavigne, for example. Those are certainly bizarre ones that are a bit different to the political realm, but I think nonetheless, are quite interesting. Yeah, I love the Paul McCartney one. Paul McCartney, yeah, he's that was a very famous one, of course,
Nick VinZant 14:39
most dangerous? Which one would you look at and be like? You know what that has had a negative impact on society?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 14:46
I suppose most dangerous conspiracy is ones that can't really target the minority groups, because, as we've seen, they can really enlighten violence towards those groups. You know, it really kind of paints that picture. Of that group is doing bad things, and the reason that we society, whatever it is are having problems, is because of that particular group, which I think can be really dangerous, both for you know, how people react to that group, but also even turning the dial slightly and thinking about how a conspiracy theory about your group can impact you as that group member you know. We know that actually, it can make people feel threatened, feel feel angry, feel anxious. It can make people not want to engage with wild society because they believe that people you know, have these beliefs about them and their group. So actually, fact, it can really impact intergroup relations, both by violence, but also how that group actually feels and behaves,
Nick VinZant 15:44
putting things kind of in perspective, right? Like, we're always prisoners of the moment, and conspiracy theories seem all over the place. Have we always believed in this? Like, if we go back to Roman times, are there conspiracies about Caesar?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 15:56
And it's not a new thing. It's a very old thing, because I think all I've talked about so far, really is just human psychology that is always been with us. We kind of hardwired to kind of have this so actually, yeah, we can trace back these kind of conspiracy narrative right to the start explaining, I think believers. It was fires in Rome, that it was all part of a conspiracy, which, you know, is way before, part of the time of even calling it a conspiracy theory. But nonetheless, it is there. You know, some scholars actually think that actually, back in the day, conspiracy theories could actually have an evolutionary advantage. What they mean by that is, if you believe that there's a conspiracy happening, that there's someone else across the plane who are coming to get you and your group, that can actually make you, you know, want to survive, actually kind of be up for fighting, be up for kind of protecting you and your group. Does it matter if there really is a group out there or not, because nonetheless, you are ready to kind of survive, whereas in today's world, we don't necessarily need that fight or flight response, where to have the conspiracy that someone's out to get you, whether it's true or not, you know, it actually can lead to us, you know, to be maladaptive, whilst before, it can make us survive. Actually, now it can make us not get a vaccine, and actually, indeed, maybe die.
Nick VinZant 17:15
Are all conspiracy theories? Big conspiracy theories, in the sense that, are they always about the moon landing, or can they be about like, I think my mother in law is secretly poisoning me. The
Dr. Daniel Jolley 17:27
conspirators can be really localized, but I think a good example actually is believing that your boss is conspiring, believing in workplace conspiracy theories, and actually how that can impact your work behaviors. Now, you know we've talked very before about very societal issues, vaccination, climate change, but actually, if you believe your management is conspiring that can impact your job satisfaction, it can impact how committed you are in that workplace. It can also impact whether you want to stay in that employment. But of course, that can be brought out to other kind of issues maybe to do really thinking about, if you're a teenager in school, believing that your head teachers conspiring against you and your fellow pupils, I'm sure that would have a very, you know, a similar impact on your well being. It really is pointing the finger and seeing that others, typically, another group of people who are perceived to be powerful, are conspiring, and that can be about big issues, but could also be about things that are in your everyday
Nick VinZant 18:27
conspiracy theory you got closest to believing one that she looked at is like, oh man.
Dr. Daniel Jolley 18:36
I mean, like Wonder, but it's hard, because often I think about these issues quite a lot. I also sometimes think I don't know if I could do this. Like to believe, for example, that the government, thinking that was the UK Government, could orchestrate such a complex event, and importantly, to keep it covered up that no one else knows about it. IE, you know, 10 years later, there's been no whistle blows, no journalist pulling it out. Like other types of conspiracies, it makes me think it just is not possible. I don't believe it's possible. Like ages ago, a few years ago, some scholars did some modeling to work out how, how many years it would take for 911 to be covered up and for it to come out. And they worked that out that by the number of people that would have to be involved, it actually would have been, like, I believe it was like 10 years or something. They would, you know, someone would have, by probability sake, it would have, it would have come out in the wash. Yeah. So that's kind of where I landed on that. I'm just very skeptical, in a way which probably is a good place to be. I asked lots of questions. Like,
Nick VinZant 19:44
there's no if the moon landing was fake, like, there's no way somebody's gonna cover that up for 60 years. Like nobody's anyway. I could digress about that stuff. Oh, what do you think is the future of them? Where do you think that they go from here?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 19:57
I suspect they'll always be here. They will. They. I expect those key ingredients will always be around. But what I feel has changed that people are a bit more aware of them. You know, we're having a conversation now about them. I think being aware of the logistics of them, being aware of the makeup, being aware of the impact, not necessarily changed beliefs straight away. But I feel like you know, knowledge is power, that even if you're a bit more critical of what you read, that you may start, you know, asking bit more questions, if needed before, as we kind of move forward and we learn more about digital literacy, and that's more embedded in our schools, maybe also resilience, emotional resilience, maybe all these things will come together that that kind of lead to us kind of be more critical of kind of the information sources that we digest. So I think therefore they'll always be there, but I just hope that we'll be have more of a critical eye for them, because there's more knowledge about what they are and the impact that they have.
Nick VinZant 20:56
If somebody really is being affected by this, how can they kind of talk someone out of it?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 21:02
I think it's super difficult to try and target someone, someone's belief in a conspiracy theory, because, as we've talked about so far, they will be resistant to trying to correct that because, you know, they they may struggle with self correction because they see that as the truth. So instead, I think it's really interesting to think about the journey that person's been on. So, you know, ask some simple questions. You know, when this When did this belief start? What does this belief offer you just kind of understand, you know, what do they talk about? Did they mention that they feel anxious, they never have answered. They mentioned felt lonely, ostracize. Try to understand a bit about, you know, why they're there, which means, instead of want to debunk that conspiracy theory, which indeed you could try to, but I think it'd be quite difficult, you could try and help with some of the psychology, to say if they mentioned they feel lonely, or maybe try and encourage them to kind of engage with their community. If they mention they feel quite anxious, out of control. Try and think about ways to try and help with that kind of moment, trying to think about times that you do feel in control, and how to kind of deal with one's anxiety, which therefore, if you kind of build them up for success, it may mean they're less likely to kind of be be pulled back into the conspiracy theory. Of course, that's something happened overnight. It's gonna be, you know, that's the conversation over a long period of time. And maybe it'll come to the point where you can talk to them about their belief. But I certainly know that if someone came to me with a particular theory about 911 or climate change or vaccines, I'm not in a place that I could debunk that theory. I don't know the specifics you want to the expert in climate change, in vaccination, to be able to do that.
Nick VinZant 22:44
Yeah, it kind of sounds like list. Look for the soft emotion,
Dr. Daniel Jolley 22:47
humanizing them, trying to understand their journey, and thinking, hey, we can kind of, you know, deal with some of their emotions in their and their needs that they have, which means that they can then maybe in a better place to think through the information. Could be a way that we as well individuals could help. Because I certainly I would, I would struggle to have that conversation otherwise.
Nick VinZant 23:07
But is there something about conspiracy theories that reaches researchers such as yourself are still trying to figure out?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 23:13
I suppose, of course, the big next question, right, who understand a bit about the psychology of why they believe and their harm is, how do we intervene? You know, we've talked about different conversation starters there, but are there any? Are there particular interventions that seem to work really well? Are there things people can do in school that could be useful because, of course, conspiracy beliefs also happen in teenagers. It's not something for adults only, it's something for everyone. So actually, are there certain classroom activities, certain, you know, resources that are quite useful, but also, as I say, I think it's also dealing with more the psychology of, let's say, resilience, emotions. So actually, developing interventions that could target both of them, I think, could be quite important. So actually, therefore, it's how we address some of the consequences. Is a big next question,
Nick VinZant 24:02
what do you think is the single most interesting thing about conspiracy theories, the thing that you always come back to,
Dr. Daniel Jolley 24:10
always come back to, how they can always really try to make sense of that complicated world, even though, as you mentioned, actually you said, the conspiracy themselves can also be quite complicated. It can promise to be reassuring. It can promise to make you feel better, but in actual fact, they're probably not satisfying. They can make you feel more distrusting. They can change how you see other people. They can change your behaviors. They may, you know, seem appealing, but they're not satisfying. Find always that quite interesting.
Nick VinZant 24:42
That's pretty much all the questions that I got. What's kind of coming up next for you? How can people find out more, all that kind of stuff?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 24:50
So I'm always looking into conspiracy psychology. There's always new questions to be asked, which is always fascinating. You can obviously follow my website at Daniel jolly dot. Co uk, and I post updates there, but, you know, just look at it for papers, stalks, kind of, I'm always kind of trying to get myself out there to kind of educate on the psychology of conspiracy theories.
Nick VinZant 25:11
But is there something about conspiracy theories that reaches researchers such as yourself are still trying to figure out?
Dr. Daniel Jolley 25:17
I suppose, of course, the big next question, right? Who understand a bit more about the psychology of why they believe and their harm is, how do we intervene? You know, we've talked about different conversation starters there, but are there any other particular interventions that seem to work really well? Are there things people can do in school that could be useful because, of course, conspiracy beliefs also happen in teenagers. It's not something for adults only, it's something for everyone. So actually, are there certain classroom activities, certain, you know, resources that are quite useful, but also, as I say, I think it's also dealing with more the psychology of, let's say, resilience, emotions. So actually, developing interventions that could target both of them, I think could be quite important. So actually, therefore, it's how we address some of the consequences is a big next question.
Nick VinZant 26:07
I want to thank Dr jolly so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Scholl and get to the pointless part of the show. Are you generally the first or last person in your family to get sick, like if it's going around? Are you going to catch it before other people you know? Or are you going to catch it last?
John Shull 26:40
I'm probably the last one in my family, but I'm like, the first one at work. You know what I mean? Like, I'm the first one outside of my family.
Nick VinZant 26:49
So you're like, the strongest in your family, but the weakest outside of it.
John Shull 26:54
What's the worst sickness or thing you've gotten that you that you remember, food
Nick VinZant 27:00
poisoning 100% not even a question. I remember getting food poisoning and being amazed that you could feel this bad, like, oh my gosh, I feel this bad and I'm not dying.
John Shull 27:13
I'll say I've never had food poisoning that I know of which is immaculate because I have eaten some grotesque things in my life.
Nick VinZant 27:22
Listen, I'm pretty upset about your zip up sweater, that you have there fancy pants.
John Shull 27:29
Why I like this zip up sweater?
Nick VinZant 27:31
They trying to class it up a little bit too much. That's too class. That's a work sweater, is it not? Yeah,
John Shull 27:38
I literally got in from work an hour ago. So, yes, okay,
Nick VinZant 27:42
how long does it take you? Does it take you an hour and a half to change?
John Shull 27:49
I want it to look good for you, for you,
Nick VinZant 27:51
okay, all right. All right, well, all right, okay.
John Shull 27:55
I mean, I haven't I mean, I don't understand it. And this is a bigger thing. I stopped wearing blue jeans to work, and all I've been wearing are slacks for the last three weeks. Yeah, and everyone's, everyone's like, Why? Why did you why did you stop wearing blue jeans? Why did you start being fancy?
Nick VinZant 28:11
Well, you can't change a habit. No one likes it when you change a habit, it doesn't even really matter what your habit is. To some degree, I just think that you can't change it like if you wore sweatpants to work all the time, I don't think people would bat an eye. It's amazing to me how you can be terrible at something, but as long as you're consistently terrible, you somehow are recognized better than someone who's consistently good and occasionally terrible.
John Shull 28:39
Yeah, that shouldn't make sense what you just said, but it does.
Nick VinZant 28:43
It's better to be consistently bad and occasionally good than it is to be consistently good and occasionally bad. All right, you're ready for some shout outs. Would you disagree with that or agree with it?
John Shull 28:59
I mean, I think eventually the system cracks. I think that works for for a little while, but I think if you're bad, long enough, you know, I do, I do still think hard work and honesty and putting in a good effort will ultimately succeed over someone that you know is a terrible every day. It may take a while, but the shield will crack and the flaws will be exposed.
Nick VinZant 29:25
Oh, I think you've watched too many movies. I don't, I don't believe that at all.
John Shull 29:32
I mean, I like to think this is part of my stupid optimism, that, you know, good people get good things.
Nick VinZant 29:41
I think good people get good things in ways that are not directly tied to what other people would immediately view as success. I think good people get good things in the way that they can develop like a good friendships, good family life. They can raise children that like them. But I think. People who are not good people are the ones that you see that are kind of the pinnacles of success. That's what it takes to get there. I got the there's no nice way to get to a billion dollars.
John Shull 30:11
I don't disagree with that. I would also argue, and I don't know the numbers on this, that what billionaire isn't a product of their upbringing. What billionaire is? A self made billionaire? Nobody was grassroots. You know, I'm sure there's somebody. I mean, there has to be, and I'm sure that it's people out there listening to us are like, hey, idiots, is this person, that person? But, you know, yes, I don't disagree with you. But I also think, you know, people get to be that rich or that powerful because they're just born into it. Oh, no one just happens there by happenstance, usually, especially not now,
Nick VinZant 30:51
I think that you could look at anybody who in their field who is, quote, unquote, really successful, and if you drill down into it enough, you would find a way where they ultimately benefited pretty significantly from blind luck.
John Shull 31:05
Anyways, let's give some shout outs. Let's see here. We're going to start with Casey Peterson, Christine Hanson, Alexander Torres, Titan, Holloway, oh,
Nick VinZant 31:19
don't policy to name your kid, Titan, Titan. You gotta I would never name my kid anything that could really come back around to haunt them.
John Shull 31:30
Seems like a cool name, but it's like a tat, like a tattoo to me, as it as it fades as you get older, that that name will become just, oh yeah. My name is Titan. Wish my parents had never named me that. Just like I wish I'd never gotten this tattoo when I was 18, of a rubber ducky on my arm, strong with rubber ducks.
Nick VinZant 31:52
Yeah, yeah. Joshua, tattoos? Do you? Do you have any tattoos?
Unknown Speaker 31:57
I do not know. I don't
Nick VinZant 31:59
either. I don't have anything against him. I've just personally never found something that I would get on my body.
John Shull 32:06
Anyways, Dominique Riggs, Joshua West, Rory cower, Jude Morgan, David Hart and Isaac Taylor.
Nick VinZant 32:15
I feel like this is a lot of European people. Seems like a lot of European Rory, Titan, Jude, those seem like European names to me.
John Shull 32:28
I could probably maybe next episode, I'll just do the bots, because you can tell the bots, because their names are like so just, it's like a i dot Benny or something, or ao dot Brian, period,
Nick VinZant 32:43
period, yeah. I mean, I think honestly, half of the internet traffic is just bots. And I've seen some fascinating theories called the Dead internet theory. I guess it's just one theory, but the dead internet theory that eventually it's all just going to be bots talking to bots, bots creating AI, being interacted with by other bots, and it's just all crap.
John Shull 33:05
There was a article on CNBC, trusted news source, that basically said in 25 years, and they were piggybacking off Amazon, saying that half of its workforce in a decade is going to be AI based that we may not even talk to each other in 25 years, that everything would be through a computer or through some kind of AI technology, like our best friends, like you would be talking to me with, but I would be aI doing this podcast.
Nick VinZant 33:35
I just feel like whenever society goes in one direction, the over correction comes, and then we find the middle because I'm sick of talking to people via typing like I'm tired of it. I'm tired of typing everything. I'm tired of texting everything. I would just rather talk to somebody. So I feel like we're going to switch back the other way. We're going to get sick of it.
John Shull 34:00
Well, if you, if you, I will say, I don't know if I agree with your, disagree with you, because you look at world events, and there's a lot of lot of nations that are unhappy with each other right now, and all it takes is one war to set us back. You know what I mean? Like everything goes out the window. So who knows what's gonna happen?
Nick VinZant 34:20
I think about that, like, if we would ever have another big war, but I think that people in the more developed countries are just too lazy and selfish, myself included, like I'm not going to war, like I'm not doing that.
John Shull 34:36
I don't know if I want to say this or not. I feel like patriotism in America, because I can't speak for any other country, and you are right, we have a pretty large European base, but I feel like patriotism in America is not what it was, even during, like, the Bush years, when we, you know, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Oh, yeah.
Nick VinZant 40:00
Commanders, whoa, wow. So they beat up on a team that doesn't even have their main quarterback playing that changes their name every 15 seconds.
John Shull 40:10
Speaking of Jane Daniels, did you see that where he dislocated his elbow?
Nick VinZant 40:16
I don't like to see people get injured. I can't watch it anything where I see somebody's bone getting like twisted or broken, or whenever I see a body part bending in a way that it is not supposed to bend, I cannot watch that. I can't turn the I can't turn this channel fast enough when I see that,
John Shull 40:36
I guess, for those of you that have never seen it, that are not weak at heart or have a soft stomach, check it out. But it is, it's, it's insane. I don't know how he he didn't mess up a ligament, a tendon. He just dislocated his up. I have no idea. Watch it and and talk about it with your friends. But it's, I don't I don't
Nick VinZant 40:58
get it. I don't ever want to see seeing people get injured is I like watching fail things where somebody gets I don't mind watching things where it looks like somebody gets hurt but they're okay, like when somebody walks into a stop sign or crashes when they're trying to show off on a motorcycle that they just bought. I like those kind of things, but I don't like sports injuries. They're too nasty for me.
John Shull 41:23
Well, let's, let's go to, let's go to something way better. Okay, and that's an actual federal indictment against two major league baseball pitchers who were apparently throwing pitches literally and figuratively to, you know, win bets, and here's, I'll skip the entire story, just to tell you that the one pitcher who is probably the mastermind of this did it, did all of that risk through his career, way blah, blah, blah, for about $16,000 he was set To make $32 million the end of next year.
Nick VinZant 42:02
God, people can't see past it. But for some people, it's never how much they have. It's how much they could more they could get. I get, like, $32 million like, well, that you could have made an extra 16,000 and made $32,016,000
John Shull 42:18
it's just, just makes no sense. I mean, yeah, I just don't
Nick VinZant 42:23
get it. I just don't like the idea that anybody's going to clutch their pearls about the high D that about the fact that we have turned sports, maybe it was before, but essentially, all about gambling. You cannot watch any sports related program and not hear something about gambling, whether they're talking about it, the whole show is dedicated to it, or they're sponsored by it. So this idea that, like, oh my god, people are gambling. Can you believe it? Like, what did you think was going to happen?
Unknown Speaker 42:58
I mean, did you get it wrong? Did you even in baseball. Did
Nick VinZant 43:01
you get Did you get it?
Unknown Speaker 43:04
I saw you trying to Why are you an
Nick VinZant 43:06
asshole? I just wanted like it was going on for so long. I just wanted to know if you finally
John Shull 43:11
got it. Talking the you know, people are listening. They're not necessarily seeing at this point what I'm doing. But yes, I'm picking my nose.
Nick VinZant 43:20
I'm okay with picking i think i i would strongly argue that picking your nose has slowly become more socially acceptable.
John Shull 43:30
I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't think so. You know what? I have noticed that while we're talking about this kind of thing is a lot more people are farting in public.
Nick VinZant 43:42
I'm telling you, main bodily maintenance, whether that is picking your nose, farting or burping, is all becoming much more socially expected, acceptable,
John Shull 43:52
but so I don't want to, I don't want to be that person, but like, don't walk into my office or walk into the bathroom, fucking shit your pants and walk out and just act like it's okay, like I don't even do that for the most part.
Nick VinZant 44:09
Oh, somebody walks into your office and farts.
John Shull 44:12
I mean, there's multiple times, and I'm not gonna name any names, obviously, I
Nick VinZant 44:17
think they're doing it on purpose,
John Shull 44:19
because I, you know, I am a manager at all, and I don't want to do that, but I will tell you that there are people that I know come in there and they fart and leave, and I'm waiting for them to say something, maybe the next day or something. Nope, they just probably do it again. Wait
Nick VinZant 44:37
a minute. Are you in there? They walk into your office while you're in there, fart and then leave. No, they walk through. They like, sneak into your office, like, put like, point their butt in, fart in your office, and keep walking. No.
John Shull 44:50
First off, imagine my office. It's a concrete cell. Legitimately, I don't have any windows. I barely have ventilation. I have a door, but it's. Literally, I like, there's no light, right? Someone comes in. We're talking, they fart. They get up and they leave. It's just stale air. I don't have a vent pushing the air around. You know? I mean, there.
Nick VinZant 45:14
I mean to me, what this is asking for, what you're seeing to be calling on. Here we go. I would like to here we go. All of the people that John works with to go and fart in his office. I think that we as a society can find something to come together and all go and fart in John's office. Don't call down the thunder if you're not ready for the rain, because that's what you did. Don't complain about something like that, and expect not to have repercussions of everyone coming in to fart in your office. This episode is going to come out on Thursday, 1113, I expect John's office to be filled with farts, filled with farts by Friday. I am calling upon all of John's co workers to please, for the sake of all that is holy, fart in his office every day.
John Shull 46:09
Well, I am proud to say that I work with upstanding professionals who would not do that in your office and leave because you know, just so everyone out there knows us, maybe listening to this, you know, as it comes out late in the week, Nick will text me Friday and say he'll want a status update, or he'll come up with some witty bullshit to text me about. I
Nick VinZant 46:35
would really appreciate it too, if people would who work with John find us on social media and then send me a quick message every time they fart in your office, and I will give multiple thumbs up, and I will keep track of the number of people who fart in your office. I hope we move on. I hope it's a non stop stream. I hope you've got to be in there in the gas mask, because that's what you deserve, and you should take it, quite frankly, in a positive light, because there is no greater honor amongst men than being insulted and ridiculed because it means other men like you,
John Shull 47:09
can we just move on? I really, I really shouldn't have said that, and now shouldn't have said it. My Friday is gonna smell like fucking cheeseburgers, moldy milk shakes.
Nick VinZant 47:21
I hope somebody has chilies and microwave Hot Pockets and just goes in there. I hope it's somebody who is the cleaning crew. I hope the cleaning crew comes in there one day and just every time they fart, they just go in there and they fart in your office, and they just leave it all weekend for you. I hope people start like, Oh,
John Shull 47:43
nope, you know why? They won't, because they are professional people. All right, true at all professional people. All right, let's Can we just move on? I don't want to talk about this
Nick VinZant 47:55
anymore. Okay. Are you ready? This segment segues in to our top five, which is top five lessons you had to learn the hard way. John is about to have to learn the hard way. Don't complain about people farting in your office, because then they'll really start to fart in your office. Oh, they sit in your chair and fart it. I hope you that one day you get up, you leave your office to go to another meeting, you come back like an hour, two hours later, you sit down in your chair, and it's warm, and you wonder why, but you won't wonder why, because you'll know why. Everybody's farting John's office. I hope somebody changes your name, the name tile that you have on your office, from John's office to fart box. I hope somebody puts fart box on your office. I hope it's the general manager.
John Shull 48:48
Are we done? Are we? Are we? Can we? He might I don't know. He may do that. I
Nick VinZant 48:54
hope he changed fart box. Listen, if you're lit,
John Shull 48:59
if any of my boss are listening? Can you at least put Mr. Fart box please just give me the title
Nick VinZant 49:05
I've, for some reason, thought of this one guy that I used to work with whose name will remain nameless. It definitely wasn't someone named Eric Fink, who every time he used to come over to talk to me because he was on the weekends when I was news anchor for the weekends, and every time he came over to talk to me, I would do an all page on the telephone, and then hold the telephone up to whatever he was going to come walk over and say to me so it went out throughout the entire building.
Unknown Speaker 49:37
You're such a douche.
Nick VinZant 49:39
Made me sad, just I could not stop laughing, and he fell for it every time, because I could see him coming. And so I would dial it up so that whenever he came over and said to me, all I had to do was just like, check the phone real quick, and everything that he said would then be broadcast throughout the entire station compound.
John Shull 49:54
Oh my god. I hope he like, you know, punched you or did. Something to you.
Nick VinZant 50:00
No, he, I mean, he didn't find it nearly as funny as I did.
Unknown Speaker 50:05
No, it's not that. Shout out to Eric. Okay.
Nick VinZant 50:10
Oh, so you're ready for a top five. Did I say what it was? No, you haven't yet. Top five lessons you have to learn the hard way. What's your number five?
John Shull 50:21
Learn how to wash your clothes properly. And I say that with the specificness of learn how to dry them, uh, properly. Because I cannot tell you how many shirts, sweaters, pants that I've shrunk, and I just try to wear them. And I go from, you know, an extra large, sometimes a two weeks, down to a schmedium, and it's just embarrassing as shit.
Nick VinZant 50:49
Oh, I feel like, I mean, how many I think this is about lessons you've learned. It doesn't seem like you've learned this lesson.
John Shull 50:58
Oh, yeah, I don't. I don't do this medium thing anymore at all. Oh, close, yeah. I mean, I did not even close. I
Nick VinZant 51:05
guess my parents made me do my laundry from like, eighth grade, not eighth grade. From like, I remember being like, eight or nine years old, and my parents were like, go do your laundry.
John Shull 51:15
No, I would, I call it microwaving your clothes. And I've microwaved so many, probably at least two dozen. You know, sweaters, shirts, pants, it's embarrassing.
Nick VinZant 51:28
Okay, all right. Well, from that big life lesson, my number five is the fear of something is always worse than the thing itself.
John Shull 51:39
Oh, so you're I, you go broad picture here. I have some, like, you know, specific ones.
Nick VinZant 51:45
Oh, I have some specific ones. I feel like that is specific. The fear of something is always worse than the thing it is. Wait, no, I say that, right, yeah, the fear of something is always worse than the actual thing.
John Shull 52:01
I just don't know. Like, why? Why did you why did you have to learn that the hard way? Give us an example.
Nick VinZant 52:07
Oh, because, like, whenever you go and get a shot, you're always like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get a shot. It's gonna hurt. I don't want to get this shot. It's gonna hurt. And you worry about it for like, a day or two days, and then you get the shot, and you're like, it's over.
John Shull 52:22
For me, it's things like public speaking or, you know, meeting people. It's actually like they're more nervous than you are half the time, and it's not that bad.
Nick VinZant 52:34
Oh, that's I'd feel like another life lesson that's not on my top five, but it's like everybody's in the same boat as you are, nobody in life knows what they're doing, and we're all just trying to get through this awkwardly at the same time.
John Shull 52:49
And then we die, and then we die. My number four is just knowing your limits in terms of drinking alcohol.
Nick VinZant 53:00
You've learned again? Do you feel like you've actually learned that lesson?
John Shull 53:05
I do. I can honestly say, at least this entire year for 2025 that there is not one time where I remember going man, I drank way too much, like I've held it in control. And I know that, you know that's a big deal for me, because I can kind of have an addictive personality sometimes, so proud of you. So my
Nick VinZant 53:29
number four is before. My number four is, don't skip maintenance. You got to do maintenance. And you learn that lesson the hard way. The first time you don't like take care of something that you should have been taken care of, and then it ends up costing you way more. Don't skip on maintenance.
John Shull 53:47
I mean, I could give you multiple car maintenance things where I ignored them, and in the end I had to buy a tire or two tires or a radiator when I could have just solved it or fixed it, when it was a $10 fix, or maybe, you know, a bell tire could have fixed the flat for me for free kind of thing.
Nick VinZant 54:07
Oh yeah, this. Like, what's amazing to me is how little we learn from the people around us. Because none of these are, like, groundbreaking lessons of life. Like, oh yeah. Everybody could have told anybody listening. Probably, like, yeah, I could have told you that, but you still don't learn the lesson until you do it the hard way.
John Shull 54:27
So this may seem like everyone knows this, and maybe I just was dumb, but my number three is just hygiene and but specifically, like washing your hands after like the bathroom. I learned this the hard way about a decade and a half ago and a public bathroom, when I contracted some kind of virus from not using using the bathroom, walking out, I got super sick. To the point to where I was like, Damn, I'm Yep. Now I know why they say wash your hands every time you use the bathroom.
Nick VinZant 55:07
Yeah, yeah. What virus was it like? What kind of bathroom were you in? I'm not sure if you're hinting at some sort of to get it was an STD.
John Shull 55:18
It was not no this. I mean, it's an incredibly gross story that I can tell. Oh, I don't really mean it, if you want,
Nick VinZant 55:25
can you just tell me the name of the virus and just skip all the particulars about it.
John Shull 55:30
The hospitals just said that it was just a stomach virus. That's all they would tell me.
Unknown Speaker 55:34
Oh, yeah, it's STD.
Unknown Speaker 55:39
Sure, whatever you say, my
Nick VinZant 55:41
number three is your job doesn't care about you. I feel like that's a lesson that you have to work you have to learn the hard way, and you have to learn it at every job that you go to, that the job doesn't ultimately care about you. The people do, but the job does not.
John Shull 55:58
I mean, don't get me wrong. I I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I do think you know, a lot of it is what you make of it. Yes, at the end of the day, unless you're literally working for yourself or a super small business, you're a number and you're replaceable, and it is what it is, but it's kind of like your doctor thing. If I don't think of it that way, if I think I'm an all star, then I will be an all star.
Nick VinZant 56:27
Oh, good name. Listen, anytime. Look, you want to be delusional, go ahead and do that. You're number two. So my
John Shull 56:35
I realize three out of my top five have to do with like, hygiene stuff. That's not very good.
Nick VinZant 56:41
No, I've never thought of you as a dirty person, maybe, but, I mean, are you I
John Shull 56:48
want to say I'm. I wouldn't say I'm dirty, but like, it's just, you know, like you're at a public restroom, you're in a bar, whatever you know, you go to the bathroom. You don't think you're going to walk out of the bathroom by not washing your hands the one time and get a brain eating amoeba. You know what I mean like, but it happens. Lesson learned the hard way.
Nick VinZant 57:08
Okay,
John Shull 57:11
my number so my, my number two is always putting the toilet seat down.
Nick VinZant 57:21
I, I just don't know what you're doing. And so what's going on with you? And this was, this was a My,
John Shull 57:31
my, one of my grandmother's would kick the shit out of me if I use the bathroom and left the toilet lit up and didn't put it down. For, you know, for the for the women in the house, yeah, for her, I never
Nick VinZant 57:45
understood that. Why can't they just look and like, right, like, I can put it up. Why can't you put it down? Why do I have to do do things and you do nothing?
John Shull 57:53
Well, I tell you what? When you get hit, you know, with a with a swatch or something like that, I mean, that hurts, and that's a lesson that you learn the hard way. So even if I'm in a public restroom, I put the toilet seat down, wash my hands for a minute and a half, and I go, and I go, am I
Nick VinZant 58:09
okay? I like how your top five is all like basic hygiene things, and mine is all like deep, philosophical commentary on life. I know it's usually the other way around. Yeah? Mine, yeah. I would agree. We've changed. We've changed. My number two is hard work doesn't really mean anything. Hard work is not going to get you to where you want. It to get you. You need to work hard. You're like hard work alone is not the secret to success. It's just not I feel like that's a lesson that we are taught, and then you have to learn the hard way that that's not true.
Unknown Speaker 58:45
I mean, it's yes. I'll just say yes, okay, I don't, yeah,
Nick VinZant 58:51
I know. I feel like you're still, you're still delusional about employment.
John Shull 58:57
No, I actually, I mean, I was trying not to be too down on it. But I think the the American thought of working is just fabricated on a lie. It's built on a lie. There is no work life balance. Your job doesn't really care about you. You could put in 20 hours a day and kill yourself, keel over tomorrow, and you'll be replaced in a week, and all they'll do is, you know, send your wife a flower, flowers. You know what I mean? Like, they don't care. They don't, you're absolutely right. Oh,
Nick VinZant 59:28
no. Like, people our age were sold a dream, and the only people that were dream came true was the people who were making money off of you. Like, it was just a way, like, Hey, man, you know what? Sell 15 more and you're gonna be it's gonna be good, okay?
John Shull 59:45
I mean, that's how, that's how it's always worked, but it just still sucks when it when it hits you. You know, that is a hard lesson to learn. You know,
Nick VinZant 59:52
for somebody with so many hygiene complaints, I don't see why you're so concerned about people going and farting in your office. I.
John Shull 1:00:00
Like these are just lessons that you learn the hard way. I you know that I learned the hard way.
Nick VinZant 1:00:05
Number one, don't complain about people farting in your office. That should be your number one. What is your number one?
John Shull 1:00:13
Though? Don't be a stubborn douchebag and tell people that you don't need suntan lotion when you're more translucent than a vampire.
Nick VinZant 1:00:25
Oh, wait, is this what this is? Are you telling people that you that you don't need some What? What? What are you talking about?
John Shull 1:00:35
So my wife and I our first like, kind of excursion date, whatever you want to call it, where we went somewhere was to a beat, was to Tampa, was the St Pete. It's a day trip. I think we've been dating for a week or two. We're both Irish and German, both pretty pasty. Neither of us wore suntan lotion. We fell asleep on the beach in the middle of the day. Third degree burns,
Nick VinZant 1:01:02
Oh, God. How did you not wake up? How'd you not feel your skin searing off?
John Shull 1:01:09
It was, I mean, it was, it was. So those of you out there that have had a really bad burn, like you, you could peel layers of my back off, like the dead skin, like it looked like, like a, like a, like a cheese screen, almost,
Nick VinZant 1:01:28
oh, I've never had that happen to me. Yeah, I've sort of gotten a really bad sunburn.
John Shull 1:01:34
I now use suntan lotion every time fuck. I'll wear sun shirts. It can be 70 degrees and cloudy and I'll wear a sun shirt, and it's not even because I'm a bigger guy. It's just because I don't want to get
Nick VinZant 1:01:46
burned. I'm I mean, at least, like, look, you can make fun of the fact that all of these things seem to be things that people should have learned a long time ago, right? Like, don't over, dry your clothes, wash your hands when you go to the bathroom, put sunscreen on when you're going to the beach, but the important thing is that you're learning these lessons, right? Maybe you learn them 20 to 30 years after other people learn them, but improvement is proven right? Like it's not where you start you finish.
John Shull 1:02:15
I think we all have different paths that we follow, and I'm sure everyone's top five would be completely different than the next.
Nick VinZant 1:02:23
I would agree. I don't know if there's anybody else who's going to have wash your hands after you go to the bathroom. On their
Unknown Speaker 1:02:32
top things you learn the hard way.
Nick VinZant 1:02:35
Man, my number one is life is both fast and slow. It goes so quickly, but it also moves slow, so so slowly, and can be such a grind. I don't think that anybody really tells you when you're growing up how much of a grind life becomes, and that, like the real hard part, is just grinding this out day after day after day, and still being ready to seize opportunities. I feel like it's a marathon where you never realize that you're gonna have to suddenly sprint.
John Shull 1:03:13
I mean, I don't, I don't know if I actually agree with that. It's a sludge, you know? Oh, I feel like I don't I think, I think life just goes by now. I mean, you know, seems like a year ago to me.
Nick VinZant 1:03:33
That's what I mean, in the sense that it's such a grind that you have to still kind of find the enjoyment in life when it does become such a grind that it can become just day after day after day, as you get older and you still have to remember to seize those moments of opportunities where you can do something different and enjoy life again, because it can be such a grind that can wear you down,
John Shull 1:04:03
like make sure you wash your hands in public restrooms. Make sure I did it. You I didn't do it the one time. And look what happened. I got sick. I let my guard down.
Nick VinZant 1:04:15
You didn't respect the grind that is life. You've got to you've got to approach life every day as if it's completely brand new to you. Even though most of your day is spent doing the same old things that you've always done, you have to approach approach each new day like you've never been there when most of your day is just doing the same thing over and over and over again. I
Unknown Speaker 1:04:42
feel like you should end it there's gonna
Nick VinZant 1:04:44
end it there. I don't have anything else, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Really helps us out and let. Know, what are some hard truths that you had to learn the hard way you.
