Evolutionary Biologist Dr. Corrie Moreau

Some insects lick each other's butts. You’ve probably never seen a male ant. If that sparked your curiosity, joins us as we explore the natural world with Evolutionary Biologist Dr. Corrie Moreau. We talk evolution, biodiversity, conservation and animal behaviors that will blow your mind. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Insects. 

Interview with Evolutionary Biologist Dr. Corrie Moreau

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Corrie Moreau: Evolutionary Biologist and Entomologist

Show Notes

• What is the most evolved animal on Earth

• What is happening to the Earth’s biodiversity

• What do Evolutionary Biologists study

• Why does our world look the way it does

• Why are certain animals only in certain locations

• What is the most interesting ant species

• Why is there only one male ant

• What is the most dangerous ant

• What can insects tell us about ourselves and our world

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, insects and evolution,

Dr. Corrie Moreau 0:22 we're just trying to understand how the natural world around us came to be. So how did all the species form? Why are they distributed where they are on the planet, many of their baby behaviors are so similar to behaviors that we ourselves exhibit that it was easy to connect with them, right? They wage battles, they care for their young, they gather food, they build architecture, so long ago, ancestor some primordial sludge in the you know, soup of the sea. That's where all of life on this planet came from their big conspicuous ants, they actually will actively watch you in the forest. So it's always a little freaky to like, stumble into one of their nests.

Nick VinZant 1:03 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So do you ever just kind of look around and wonder why. Why did these animals live in these places? Why does this insect look the way that it does? Why do we look, the way that we look? Our first guest studies exactly that. And she has this fascinating insight and a masterful way of explaining things that I just during this whole interview. I just found myself going. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. That's amazing. There's so much that goes into the world around us. And I think that, that just kind of peeling back that little bit, even a later layer of that just reveals so much fascination, I think and you can kind of walk away with just this marvelous wonder at the world around you. After listening to her, oh, and she knows a lot about ads. Like a lot about ads, stuff that you had no idea could possibly be true. And this makes you go what this is evolutionary biologist Dr. Corrie Moreau. So when we talk about evolutionary biology, like what, what exactly are we talking about?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 2:28 In my mind, when we're talking about evolutionary biology, we're just trying to understand how the natural world around us came to be. So how did all the species form? Why are they distributed where they are on the planet? I mean, if you think about it, why isn't everything just equally found across the globe and an equal numbers and all of the different organismal groups? I mean, if you think about just insects, there are more species of insects than there are of mammals. So trying to figure out those sort of patterns and understand the processes that lead to the diversity of life we see

Nick VinZant 2:58 when when you kind of look at like evolutionary pressure. Is it evolutionary pressure from outside of the organisms group, like other organisms? Or is it from within, like, they're competing against themselves, so to speak,

Dr. Corrie Moreau 3:12 both of those things, plus one more thing, which is the environment itself, right? So you can think about, as you know, aerification happened in some of our desert regions, we had animals that had to now adapt to an entirely new environment, or they didn't survive, right. So things either went extinct, or they changed to live in these new habitats. But again, we also know that there can be interspecies competition and conflict, which might sort of drive either species to diverge away from one another, if it's things like, you know, conflict, or they might become well adapted to living together and become a mutualism. And even within species, you know, sort of conflict and cooperation can lead to this divergence, right? So now two populations may no longer interact, which in the longer term might lead to a speciation event.

Nick VinZant 4:01 I don't know how to ask you this question necessarily, but kind of give me some leeway. Like how big of a pressure does there have to be before something becomes an entirely new species?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 4:12 Yeah, that's a great question. Usually, what happens is you need some amount of time. So the way I like to think about it isn't imagine had a population it was all just one species. And it was distributed across a wide geographic range. And maybe a mountain rose up in between them or a river change course and split them into two populations now, but they're still the same species, right? They're just in different locations. But now if they have some sort of a barrier that doesn't allow them to mix anymore, mostly, of course, thinking about their genetics, what will happen is, each of them will start to accumulate new mate mutations, either by random chance, or maybe because one of them is on the drier end of the distribution, right. And so you start accumulating more mutations that help them be successful in this Dry adapted environment, and maybe the others in a wetter part of the environment. But either way, you need some amount of time for those populations to become so incredibly different from one another that if they were reintroduced to one another, they no longer can even mate anymore, they become distinct species. And so the amount of time that needs to pass, of course varies. Many people think it's probably on the order of a million years, sometimes it happens really quickly and could happen in you know, hundreds of thousands of years. Sometimes it might take millions of years for those populations to drift far enough apart, that they're now no longer one species.

Nick VinZant 5:36 Is there one species that you look at and say that's the most evolved species of all?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 5:41 Well, that's a misnomer, because in evolution, nothing is more evolved than anything else. And so it's this idea that all of life on planet is equal, it's just who they're most closely related to. And so you can have relics that don't have very many close relatives around anymore. So they'll seem kind of bizarre. So if you think of something like a field account, right, it's, there's not a lot of things that are very highly similar to a seal a camp, where other things like you might think of fruit flies, and they kind of all look alike to you. But there's lots and lots and lots of species. And so, you know, how would you sort of decide which is is, you know, more at the pinnacle of evolution, they're just in different trajectories,

Nick VinZant 6:24 they kind of each go as far as they need to. Right. Is that? Does that make sense?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 6:28 Sure. And of course, you also have to keep in mind, lots of things are going extinct through evolutionary time as well.

Nick VinZant 6:33 When you look at kind of, from the aspect of biodiversity. Do we have as much biodiversity as we used to? Is that just going away? Like what's happening to all these species?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 6:46 Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, I would say, unfortunately, humans have a pretty negative impact on biodiversity. And we know that we're losing species because of, of, you know, our involvement on the planet. And not always an unnecessarily intentionally bad way, right. And so we know some organisms just don't do well around human built environments where others actually thrive, right? So we can think about things like cockroaches and, and they've done extremely well in the human and made environment where lots of species actually go extinct, either locally or globally, when, you know, their environment is perturbed too much. So do I think our planet holding all the biodiversity? It could? Absolutely not. And unfortunately, that's probably our fault at this moment. But if we were to sort of back up, you know, a few thousand years, I would say that we probably were, you know, holding quite a bit more biodiversity.

Nick VinZant 7:38 I mean, is there something that we, as a human species can do to save this? Or is it just like, our mere presence is going to have some kind of effect, right, like, no matter how much we tip toe, something's bad is going to happen, so to speak?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 7:52 Well, I mean, of course, if we tiptoe, we're gonna cause less than negative pressures on on biological diversity. Then, of course, there are things that individuals can do right, you can be quite mindful about how you live on the planet. But I really think to sort of stop the the large changes that are happening, and we'd have to invoke policies at the global level, right? We know that climate change is one of the leading factors that's currently impacting species on the planet, but we'll certainly continue to in the future, where, you know, a lot of us have now thought about things like, you know, planting native plants in our gardens to attract pollinators, right. And so I think there's a level of knowledge that each of us individually can gain to make sure that we're promoting and helping support biodiversity. But then there's also things that just because of the sheer number of people we have, we're going to always have industrial farming at this point, right? As much as all of us would love to eat locally and shop locally, it's like impossible to do that entirely for the majority of the planet. So I mean, I think that each of us should do our small part, but we should also be advocating for policy change at the highest levels.

Nick VinZant 8:59 What kind of policy changes do you think that we need the most?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 9:03 I think we need to think about, you know, how do we how do we get our sources of energy, I think we need to think about how do we feed people effectively while still being mindful of the planet and not just being greedy? I think that we have to be thoughtful about where people live in reside. And, you know, and, and recognize that not, you know, not everyone can have, you know, equal sizes of property and, and, and still support, you know, biodiversity on the planet.

Nick VinZant 9:42 How was this something that you got into what attracted you to it?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 9:46 to biology, or thinking about our impact on the planet.

Nick VinZant 9:51 Well, I feel like one is just an existential crisis that we all have. So let's go with biology.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 9:58 Sure. So growing I loved nature, I thought it was just the coolest thing. I grew up in New Orleans. But I didn't. I didn't know scientists, my parents didn't go to university and or college. And so it wasn't like I had this idea like, okay, step one, you do this, then step two, you become a scientist, it was more just that I thought nature was cool. And back then, you know, I'm older than and then probably many of your listeners, we didn't have the nature channel and animal planet, we just had PBS. And I remember every single major show that came on on PBS, I was glued to the TV. But I also thought that, you know, that PBS had all the scientists in the world on it. And that's probably all the scientists that we needed in the world, I didn't realize all the ways that you can use research and science. And so it wasn't until I went away to university that I, my eyes were open to just all the cool things that you could do. And, and maybe it's because I grew up in an urban environment, I just love bugs, because I could find them anywhere. And so, for me, I went away to university and thought, Okay, I'm going to study nature, but I really want to focus on bugs. And I don't know what I'll do with that in the end. But, um, you know, I sort of thought maybe I could teach high school or maybe work for a pest control company. But you know, I didn't know that there were so many ways that you could use insects to study important questions on the planet.

Nick VinZant 11:18 What can insects tell us about our lives?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 11:23 Well, I mean, of course, in lots of different things, in one way, you know, many species are bio indicators for whether we have healthy habitats. And so that's important, of course, we also know that if you think about the impact of, of organisms, on human commodities, of course, insects are a giant pest, but they're also important pollinators, right. So they have lots of beneficial and harmful roles for things that humans care about. I don't do applied research, most of my research is actually much more fundamental, or basic. And what I'm trying to just understand is, why are there so many species? And why are they found where they are? And and how does species interactions explain how they may shift into new habitats or onto novel diets? And I'm just trying to understand the world around me.

Nick VinZant 12:08 So from an understanding standpoint, let's say one, is we basically know absolutely nothing about the world around us, the species around us. 10, we've got this all completely figured out. Where do you think that we are right now?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 12:25 Oh, goodness, maybe at a three. Yeah, I mean, think about the fact that how many species of invertebrates there are in a rainforest that we know nothing about are all the bacteria that are found globally distributed, we know almost nothing about. And let's not even talk about the bottom of the oceans, there's so much diversity down there that every now and then we get a glimpse of because maybe we send some sort of a submerge vesicle down there, or a fisherman find something bizarre, but I guarantee you, there's 100 fold more diversity out there than any of the things we've even just began to sort of study. I mean, I imagine biodiversity in my mind as much like an avalanche. We are only seeing what's above water right now. That's all the scientists have been able to discover and describe. And the majority of it's still hidden underneath the ocean. And really, like, you know, there's so much incredible knowledge to gain from studying that diversity.

Nick VinZant 13:22 So what was it about ants that appealed to you so much?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 13:25 Oh, well, I think for me, it was that even as a kid, I could watch them engaging in behaviors. So not that I was asking sophisticated questions, I might have been just putting out cookie crumbs and noting how many came and how many, how long it took them to carry them away. But I loved that I could actually studying them doing something in real time. And despite the fact that they often weren't as beautiful as some of the butterflies or beetles I saw. Sometimes in one summer, I might find one beetle and not see it again till the next year. So I couldn't actually like observe things about it. So I think that's what first captivated me to answer. I also think it was that many of their baby behaviors are so similar to behaviors that we ourselves exhibit that it was easy to connect with them, right? They wage battles. They care for their young, they gather food, they build architecture. So I think I just was naturally attracted to them, because they, they did all these amazing things.

Nick VinZant 14:20 I mean, they are kind of the coolest, right?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 14:22 Yes, definitely.

Nick VinZant 14:24 Which one? All right, though. Well, I'll ask you this later, because we have some listener questions that are kind of focused on that a little bit. But I was reading just some of the research that you did that the ants were 100 and 40 million years old or something.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 14:38 That's right. Yeah. And so we use a set of statistical, you know, tools to help us figure that out by using both molecular data DNA data coupled with the fossil record. So ants have an incredibly rich fossil record. There are 10s of thousands of ant fossils, and the oldest ant fossils about 100 million years old. And what's interesting is that belongs to a group that's still around today. So really, what it appears is that amps sort of appeared on the planet from their closest relatives. And we're kind of, you know, doing okay, probably not in high density or high species numbers. And then as the flowering platform is sort of expanded across the globe, this was a perfect niche for them to live in. So if any of you've ever spent time in tropical forests, you know that answer everywhere. And so it really provided a niche both in the places they could live, but also in all kinds of new food resources for them. So ants really sort of went through this explosion in species correlated with the expansion of the flowering plant for us across the globe.

Nick VinZant 15:42 Do we have any idea how many ants there are on the planet?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 15:47 individual or as a species?

Nick VinZant 15:50 I guess both.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 15:54 So, species wise, right now, scientists have given names to about 15,000 species of ants, we know that numbers at least double and maybe triple. So there are a lot of species of ants. And I want to sort of contextualize that, there are more species of just ants than all the birds and mammals add it together. And so, you know, there's a lot of really interesting behaviors and structures to study within them. Now, if we talk about individuals, there's been some like, you know, crazy back of the envelope calculations, and it's in the trillions that we actually believe are probably on the planet. Now, some people have speculated that between ants and termites they, they have more biomass than all the humans on the planet right now. Meaning that if we put all of the ants and termites on one side of a scale, and all the humans on the planet, on the other side of scale, the ants and termites would outweigh the humans. What, why are there so many? Do we need that many of them? Are they this that good at reproducing? Like, why? Why are they so dominant in that regard? Yeah, so they are living social structures, right? So since their social species, every nest is essentially one individual, right? So you have a queen in there, who's laying all the eggs, and then you have all the workers in the nest that are performing all the important roles, whether it's feeding the on or building the NASA or gathering the food or waging the battles, right. And so each nest is essentially one super organism with lots of individuals in it. Now, as to whether we need them all, I would argue We absolutely do. They're important ecosystem engineers. And so, you know, I often tell people that they're really important for soil health and likely more important even than earthworms. So you know, they're whenever you see an ad going into a hole in the ground, there's essentially an upside down skyscraper underneath that soil, right? So they are building tunnels, they're aerating the soil, they're letting nutrients flow in into the soil, they're bringing nutrients up towards the, the, you know, soil surface, they're letting water permeate that. And that's just the answer. They're living in the soil. And so they also perform lots of important roles for plants, like dispersing seeds, and breaking down and helping decompose organic matter. So I think we need them all,

Nick VinZant 18:06 when you look at kind of the evolution of species necessarily, is it still the remaining like, did we all come from the same place at the same time, and it just branched off, and eventually, we got all of us.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 18:18 That's right. So all of life on this planet, is from a single, you know, long ago, ancestor, some primordial sledge in the you know, soup of the sea. And that's where all of life on this planet came from. Now, of course, it broke off into different branches of the tree. So we can think about fungi and animals are more closely related than they are to plants. And of course, then there's all kinds of microbial groups that, you know, also, you know, diversified and have lots of species and important roles on the planet. But yeah, all from one evolutionary origin.

Nick VinZant 18:49 So I'm going to use the proverbial they in this, but like, how, how are they able to determine the difference between like, okay, we all originated, I'm just gonna name my hometown. We all originated from Derby, Kansas somehow, as opposed to like, Oh, no, no, this happened to different places at the same time, and they all came, like, how did they separate out the difference?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 19:10 Yeah. So of course, there's all kinds of hints of you look at external anatomy, but really the and so people had long been speculating that that was probably the case. But the DNA data is actually what's really sealed the case. So we can actually use DNA. So just like if you imagine if we wanted to say, Okay, how are all are you in all of your relatives related to each other? So you wouldn't have to tell me, you could just give me a sample of all of your DNA, I could figure out who your Dad Mom was, I could figure out who their dad mom was, I could figure out who their siblings were right, from using that genetic evidence. Well, that's just at the scale of one family. Now, we can sort of do that across the globe. And we can ask the question, how is life on the planet related to one another, and there's, of course hints in the fact that the genetic code is all highly similar, but in addition, we can reconstruct that family tree and actually see how life evolved on the planet. It's called phylogenetic, it's actually really an amazing tool to sort of understand the diversity of life,

Nick VinZant 20:10 Do human beings have much bio diversity, are we pretty much all right in the same place? Or is that a big controversial loaded? Question?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 20:18 Oh, I don't think it's a controversial loaded question. I mean, we're all one species. That's for a fact. Of course, just like lots of other species, we have population genetic level differences, right. It's becoming blurred, the more global and more mobile we are, we're mixing a lot of that diversity more and more. But of course, we know that, you know, humans originated from Africa, they migrated out some, you know, individuals sort of landed in Australia, right, essentially, became isolated there for quite a long time. So if we look at the DNA of them, we can see the distinct signatures of being from Australia versus being from North America. But we're still all the same species, right? If we put this back together, we can interbreed quite easily, we still share much of our DNA, it's, you know, some obscene amount, like 99.999% of our DNA between any two humans on the planet is identical. I mean, that's pretty remarkable.

Nick VinZant 21:15 When scientists first figured that out,were people shocked that it was that high.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 21:23 They were shocked. But then, of course, you know, coming back to that question you'd asked me earlier about, like, you know, which is the most evolutionary advanced species. When we first started having the technology to sequence genomes? Well, people had made predictions that because humans had these sophisticated social structures, because we had language because we had art and music, we knew that we probably need a lot more genes to encode for all of those unique things that make us human. And once we started sequencing lots of genomes and looking at gene content, we were shocked to find out that our gene content isn't much different from almost anything else. And that was something that people hadn't expected, we now know and even knew, then that one gene doesn't coat for one trait. Usually what you have is many genes contributing to particular traits. And so any one gene is more like a letter of an alphabet, you might use an E to spell one word this, you know, in this sentence, but you're going to use an E again, and then st next word in the same sentence. And it doesn't give you the same word. And so now we just know that sort of the interplay and communication between all of our genes is what leads to complexity, not the number of them,

Nick VinZant 22:37 like okay, how much of our DNA do we share with an ant? Like, do they have somebody measured that?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 22:45 I am, I'm not sure if anybody's measured it, we could measure it, I mean, but to give you perspective, like our next closest relative is a chimpanzee and we share like 97% of our DNA with our closest relative. So if we were sort of to extrapolate out, I would imagine, we probably share something like 60% of our DNA with ants, I mean, they're an animal, you have to remember that. So you know, all the things that are animal share a large proportion of their DNA.

Nick VinZant 23:12 So I'm dating myself a little bit, but in terms when I was growing up, evolution was still kind of this big thing. And full disclosure, I went to a Catholic school, and evolution is not real, is that still a thing that is around or people I've scientists pretty much dispelled that. And

Dr. Corrie Moreau 23:29 I would argue scientists have long dispelled that there are still people who question it. And you know, it's always interesting to me that people question evolutionary biology, but they don't question astronomy. Because really, we're not trying to solve How did the, you know world come to be and like, what's the origin of the universe? That's astronomers, but nobody pickets astronomy conferences, but they still do come to evolution conferences from time to time and try to, you know, say that, you know, our work isn't real, because they can't be related to a monkey. Right. And, and that's not how evolution works, Nick VinZant 24:08 Are we talking about just the same one person ormultiple people

Dr. Corrie Moreau 24:13 Oh, it's usually a very small group. And, you know, it's, it's definitely decreased through time. I think that you know, it's funny, because people who even question evolution, they have no problem trusting medicine. And where do you think most of that medicine comes from? Or how we understand how epidemiology happens, or how we have you know, pandemics that's all through the lens of evolution, we're watching how these things evolve. Nick VinZant 24:42 Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 24:46 Bring them on?

Nick VinZant 24:48 most overrated ant Dr. Corrie Moreau 24:51 oh, that's an interesting question. most overrated and maybe army ants. And I think it's because people like you know, they've seen You know, like, Temple of Doom or Raiders of Lost Ark, whichever one were supposedly like a human was consumed by army ants. And so people often ask me like, could army ants kill me? And the answer is no. So I think that's why they're overrated.

Nick VinZant 25:16 If we're an ant High School, what ant is the jock? Who's the nerd who's the cool guy? Who's the loner.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 25:27 So first, I'm gonna say if it was an ant High School, it would be a high school be an all girls high school. Because all the ants you've probably ever seen in your life, our female males are only produced once a year solely for reproduction. So if you've ever seen an ant out, waging a battle, or carrying food back to the nest or building the nest, those are all females. If you saw an ant without wings, it's female. So only once a year are males produced, they have wings, and so did the new queens and they go off on a mating flight, the male's never contribute to the care of the colony or gathering food. Their only job is reproduction. So after they copulate, or reproduce, they die almost immediately. So now you have a new queen, she flies off to find a suitable habitat to start her whole new colony of all females, and then digs down in the dirt and starts laying eggs. So if we go back to your high school analogy, that's a tougher one. Because thinking about the dynamics of an all girls high school, of course, you'd have the the jock would probably be the soldier ants, right? The ones that are just brute force. If we had the nerds that would be the scouts that are out trying to figure out where's the next best food source to come from? I don't remember all the other categories

Nick VinZant 26:41 who would be the cool kid of ant high school

Dr. Corrie Moreau 26:46 I think all of them. Nick VinZant 26:48 What if there was a coolant amongst cool ants, you had to pick one like this, this species of ant or this, this ant is the cool one.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 26:58 Oh, gosh, I guess I'd have to pick the queen, because the colony doesn't exist without her. That being said, I think she has the worst job of the entire colony because remember, once she sort of mates, she digs down the soil and then just lays eggs the rest of her life. She never leaves the nest, she never reproduces again, she never gathers food. She just sits there and lays eggs.

Nick VinZant 27:20 Yeah, kind of sounds awful for the Queen and the man doesn't. Yeah. What what would be the reason though? Like, what's the biological or evolutionary reason while only having this one man? Why? Why would that be advantageous to them.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 27:37 So this has to do with several things. One has to do with their meeting structure. So when we meet or reproduce, right, we have one set of chromosomes that comes from our mothers, our maternal line, and one from our paternal line or father's. And we could do get some mixing, but more or less, you're kind of getting one chromosome from each parent. Well, in social in the hymenoptera, which are the ants, bees and wasps, they have a different meaning structure. So when a queen lays an egg and sperm is united with it, it becomes diploid. So it has two copies of all of the chromosomes, and it becomes a female. If she lays an egg and does not unite sperm with it, it becomes male. So males are halfway, they only have one copy of all their chromosomes. So first, the genetic structure of determining sex is actually quite different. In addition, now you have these females that are deployed, right, they have two sets of chromosomes. And because of that system, all of the individuals in the nest and up highly related to one another. So they're invested in sort of taking care of both the Queen but also the older sisters, because of that high relatedness. So it's turned into this odd system where males are really only utilized for essentially reproduction.

Nick VinZant 28:55 Guys, kind of the same with us. In some ways. I feel like you really, you really don't need men. I mean, you really don't. Is that kind of true throughout the species? Like you only need one man for every how many women?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 29:10 That's I mean, reproductively. That's certainly true. I wish we could tell our global leadership that that

Nick VinZant 29:16 best movie about an ant.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 29:18 Oh, interesting. Wow. I mean, so I have so of course, my first thought is all of the movies that are not done well. Yeah. I mean, think about things like Bug's Life and ants, right? It shows this whole male Task Force on these strong male soldiers. And all of that is totally not true. Those are all females. I'll say that. Of course, I like classic movies. So of course them is really exciting to me. There's a few things I really like about it, partially because they use scientific names for ants, which is, you know, pretty nerdy, but I appreciate and they make the entiende, the entomologist studying them really an expert in ants, which of course i think is cool, but at As much as I often complain about Ant Man, because it's not at managed to be at woman, I did appreciate that a lot of storytelling around the skills and tools of these different ants actually was based in some amount of reality of what those species actually can do. So I liked that they did a little studying and so that you're actually learning a little bit about and diversity while watching the movie,

Nick VinZant 30:23 the species with the farthest evolutionary journey. I guess, technically the furthest because it's not a measurement of actual distance. But anyway,

Dr. Corrie Moreau 30:36 That's an interesting, there's lots of ways to answer that question. Because again, as I sort of explained earlier, no species is more evolved than anything else. So we could sort of talk about species that are these anomalies on the tree of life, right, meaning that they didn't leave a lot behind a lot of species and that we still don't understand much about them. So there's a species of a couple of pieces of ants that are early divergent lineages of ants that left not a lot of clues about what their life was like when they first evolved. So those ones are pretty interesting. Of course, the first thing that jumped in my mind was the Bulla ant, which is para poner cavada. And this ant is amazing, because it's just one species, but it has a distribution, essentially, from southern Mexico through all of Central America and all of South America. They're big conspicuous ants, they actually will actively watch you in the forest. So it's always a little freaky to like, stumble into one of their nests. They are incredibly painful things. So most people try to avoid interacting with them. That's why they're called bullet ants. It feels like you were shot by a gun. But what's really interesting is there's only one species in that not only the just the genus and the entire sub family, just that one species that survived. So it begs the question, sort of, why did the sort of relatives of that go extinct? yet? This one has been incredibly evolutionarily successful? Is that the Siafu ant? I still remember some documentary that like they carry away children or something. Oh, no. Siafu is the African army ant I think there's been like one case, supposedly, it's never been fact checked that a farmer had a newborn and put it out in the shade, but in the field, and then wandered off to do some work in the field. And then the army ants came along and found this plump, little juicy child sitting there, and stung it and bit it but didn't carry it away.

Nick VinZant 32:38 Oh, that makes me feel much better. Biggest thing you learned from E.O Wilson?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 32:45 Oh, that's a nice question. I think it's to appreciate curiosity. And to cultivate it in yourself. I think that we often think of science as this really rigid process where, you know, everything was sort of has to conform to some experimental expectations. And what he really promoted was that observing the natural world, and getting to know what's happening around you actually informed your questions. And so you can ask better questions when you actually know what things do in nature and, and being curious about organisms or being curious about habitats actually will lead to the most powerful insights. So I think that's probably what he taught me the most. Let me follow up that great question with would you rather be a wasp or a hornet? Well, a hornet is just a type of a wasp. So I guess the question is, doesn't matter.

Nick VinZant 33:48 Man, right, when our audience was looking really smart, then they came across this way to let us down. Um, I don't know if this is your area of expertise. But I remember I said our audience is a little quirky. It just says, What's going on with a platypus?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 34:05 Oh, that is a great question. I mean, I totally agree that has to be one of the most bizarre looking animals. And, I mean, with some really interesting life history, but I mean, I think to me, what sums up the platypus is that the first time one was collected by European explorers and and sent it back to to England. They thought it was a gas they thought that literally the as a joke, the Explorer had taken multiple different animals and glued them together, and then sent it on as if it was a real species. And what's interesting if you look at what now it literally looks like you've glued connected pieces of animals together still, even when they're alive, and I've seen one a live and it does not look real. So I agree the platypus is crazy.

Nick VinZant 34:53 I'm looking at one right now. Like he really does like what like Hey, watch this guys, I'm gonna send this out, see what this thing looks like? What are your research right now? What are you working on?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 35:09 Yeah, so we're doing a few different things. What I am most excited about is we're trying to understand how symbiotic interactions actually helped ants become so successful. So ants have symbiotic relationships with other animals, with plants, with fungi with bacteria. And what we want to understand is, when they engage in those symbiosis, is it always beneficial? Is it always negative? And then what impact does it have? So interestingly, some work in microbe we've looked at and plant interactions, but we've also looked at microbe interactions. And so the micro work is revealing some interesting new insights. So lots of animals, as we all know, now if you hear about the microbiome, we have bacteria that live in and on us that are important to our own health, right, of course, some are not helpful, but many of them we need in order to be healthy. And so we've been studying in groups of ants that have actually transitioned from their earliest diets, which were predatory. Some have become generalists, but then some have even become entirely dependent on plant based diets or vegetarians. And so we tried to understand, how do you make that shift, and in almost all the cases we've been able to study, they actually have to take on the symbiotic bacteria that synthesize the essential amino acids or proteins that they don't get in their own diet, in order to survive entirely on a plant based diet. But what's cool about that is that by transitioning on to this entirely plant based diet, you have opened up all these new niches that you no longer have competition with other ants for food resources. So now you can diversify or speciate again, so it's this sort of interaction, but the environment and the with the symbiotic microbes in this case, that have led to some groups of ants being incredibly abundant and incredibly species rich.

Nick VinZant 37:00 If you were wanting to impress somebody at a party, and you were going to hit him with your single greatest, in fact, what are you going to go with?

Dr. Corrie Moreau 37:11 Well, I probably would go with my fact that almost every am they've ever seen as a female, but since I've already shared that one with you, I'm going to go to my backup question my backup sort of an fact. And I'd share that, and that have these gut microbes that they need, they have to have a mechanism for ensuring that their gut gets seated with them whenever they you know, sort of our new individuals are born. So how do they do that they engage in something that's called truffle access. And so truffle Ax is is just sharing liquid sources back and forth. So you can have oral oral, social travel access, which is just social food sharing from, you know, one mouth to the other. But in the case of the ants that need these gut microbes, they have to do oral anal truffle access. So they have to have another individual to acquire the right microbes. Nick VinZant 38:03 So basically ants go around licking each other's butts.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 38:07 just the vegetarian ones.

Nick VinZant 38:11 hey, look, however you got to survive is how you got to survive.

Dr. Corrie Moreau 38:15 Exactly.

Nick VinZant 38:16 Um, anything else you think we missed or anything else like that? Dr. Corrie Moreau 38:21 Um, I would say that I hope all of you have developed a greater appreciation of the little things that run the world. And, you know, maybe in the next time you see an ant running around, take a moment to actually watch what it's doing, try to observe what it looks like, because they're actually remarkable animals.

Nick VinZant 38:38 I want to thank Corey, so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have a link to her on our social media accounts, where Profoundly Pointless on Twitter and Instagram, and we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Kinesiologist Dr. Joel Seedman

What works.  And what are we really capable of. Those two questions are at the heart of this conversation with Kinesiologist Dr. Joel Seedman. In an in-depth interview, we talk training and nutrition secrets, optimizing your performance and the latest research on the human body. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things Kids These Days Wouldn't Understand. And remember, leave a review for a chance to win a free t-shirt.

Interview with Kinesiologist Dr. Joel Seedman

Topics addressed in this episode

• How many sets, reps and exercises should I be doing. What is the ideal number of sets and reps

• How low should you squat. Is ATG (ass-to-grass) squatting overrated

• How fast should I lift

• Do I need to do cardio

• What is the best overall exercise

• What is the best exercise people aren’t doing

• What is the most overrated exercise

• Can I wear jean shorts to the gym

• Can you make someone into an athlete

• The benefits of eccentric exercise

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey, everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're getting in shape. And going back in the day.

Dr. Joel Seedman 0:23 most people never even come close to optimizing their human potential, because their training is not ideal. Our body really doesn't know if we did three sets of 12. Or if we did 20 reps, or if we did 10 reps, all it knows is quality tension. And so instead of rushing through the exercises, rushing through the repetitions, one of the best things individuals can do is just slow things down. You know, I think that that's the key is the basics are still the basics, because fundamental principles, the foundational elements that have produced success for decades, are still kind of the go to methods. And if we deviate too far from that, I think that's where we start running into issues.

Nick VinZant 1:02 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us, if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So recently, I have realized that I am a shell of what I once was, physically speaking, I can barely bend over without my knees hurting. I can't catch up to my four year old. And I'm a shell in the sense that I'm a much bigger shell, like 40 pounds bigger shell. So trying to get back into some decent kind of shape. And looking at different websites and watching things. It seems like all the advice is contradictory. You're supposed to do this, no, you should never do that. You're supposed to really be doing this. And it seems like this endless back and forth about what really works. So we wanted to take this episode and find out all right, what really works. Our first guest is an expert, in terms of what really works for exercise and nutrition. He has a PhD in Kinesiology and is the founder of advanced human performance, or he trains everybody from regular people to professional athletes. This is Dr. Joel Seedman. When you look at exercise, basically what are people doing wrong?

Dr. Joel Seedman 2:20 Oh, that's a good question right there. So I think one of the main things that people, I wouldn't say do wrong, but maybe they just don't have the education and the knowledge from you know, mainstream fitness, because they tend to rush through their workouts, they tend to think that, you know, if they get the quantity and if they get the you know, number of steps in, if they get the particular amount of volume and say, you know, four sets of 10, or three sets of 12 on an exercise, that they're they're completing the necessary workout, and they're creating the proper stimulus, and they're going to get the results they want. And unfortunately, you know, the muscles in the in the body and our physiology. It's not that simple when it comes to you know, how our muscles and how our body responds. And the stimulus that we create, our body really doesn't know if we did three sets of 12. Or if we did 20 reps, or if we did 10 reps, all it knows is quality tension. And so instead of rushing through the exercises, rushing through the repetitions, one of the best things individuals can do is to just slow things down, really focus on creating a smooth control, lifting tempo, taking out the momentum and feeling those muscles really do their job and trying to target the muscles that they're they're intending to hit instead of just kind of mindlessly going through the exercises. So, you know, I just what we've kind of heard for years now from from bodybuilders really, even back in the day is you know, squeeze the muscle feel those muscles work, don't just mindlessly go to the exercises

Nick VinZant 3:45 is it as simple as if, if I feel like I did something I did something,

Dr. Joel Seedman 3:51 you know, it is to an extent when it comes to caloric expenditure, and just trying to, you know, kind of burn calories so to speak. It is however, when we're trying to change your body composition substantially, that does require additional muscle growth, whether you're a female or a male or you know, General populations, increasing our lean body tissue or lean body mass is one of the best things that we can do for health, for injury prevention, for increasing our metabolic rate at resting and during working conditions. So when it comes to actually stimulating that, that hypertrophy or that muscle growth mechanism, it does require higher quality of work for the most part, unless you're kind of a genetic freak, muscles can respond to a lot of different stimuli.

Nick VinZant 4:39 I mean, when somebody kind of approaches it is it is case where I do three sets of 10. But if I did four sets of 10, I would be completely different. Like do you have to just take it that extra little bit? Or like can you screw it up basically?

Dr. Joel Seedman 4:57 The answer to that is no. You really can't. There's a lot of research on different training protocols, what the ideal rep ranges with ideal number of steps is, and there's really no conclusive empirical evidence suggesting that one particular rep range or set range is optimal over another. In fact, they've done some research showing that if the intensity is high enough, if the quality is high enough, that one set of a really effective movement can actually produce very similar usually not quite as effective. But it can produce similar results to two or three sets, or even four sets of an exercise. So it's not like oh, you know, if I do one set, I'm only going to get 30%. If I do two sets, I'm going to get 53 sets 75%. And then to get 100% of the benefits, I have to hit force that actually it's about 80 to 90% of the benefits can be reached with one really hard set. And then you know, you do a second or third high quality set, you get the rest out of it. If you've done high quality, and you're taking everything control, you're not using a lot of momentum, if you're really focusing on that muscle mind connection and your technique is proper force that usually for an exercise is too much two or three really good stuff is going to be more beneficial for most individuals, provided their quality is higher.

Nick VinZant 6:13 From a kinesiology kind of perspective, do we pretty much have the body figured out? Like, do we know how it works?

Dr. Joel Seedman 6:20 Wow, that is such a, a deep question right there, it would seem simple. And I would say, on one hand, we learn a lot the last 10 years in kinesiology, Exercise Science is kind of a new field, relatively speaking to a lot of other fields, you know, medicine, and, you know, biology and biochemistry and all that. So it's really, really the last, you know, few decades, Exercise Science has kind of emerged, and we've continued to learn a lot. But at the same time, because it's kind of new, and it's still in its relative infancy stages, I would argue, there's still so much that we don't know and, and even the research that comes out, there's so much mixed research, there's there's a lot of conflicting data. And it kind of creates this confusion in the industry where, you know, some people say, Oh, well, there's, you know, all this research showing that, for example, I was like used to squat analogy, because that's a big one. That's one that I'm known for creating a little bit of controversy over. You know, there's some research out there that shows that astagraf squatting or squatting as deep as you can with maximal range of motion is suggested or beneficial. And then there's another group of research that shows that that's not the case that actually squatting to 90 degrees or parallel is, in fact, the best way to do it. So you kind of have these mixed sides of things. And you really have to look deeply at the research to kind of see, hey, why didn't Why do we have these conflicting views? And this is this is for many different topics. And then you have to say, Okay, why is it that and then you have to examine the research. And you can usually kind of figure out which side is ideal, but you have to examine it pretty intently. So I think we have so much learning and field of Kinesiology is exciting, because, you know, we still have a lot of potential growth.

Nick VinZant 8:09 Like when you look at how much we know about the body, one is absolutely nothing. 10 is we've got this thing locked down, figured out, like, Where do you think we are right now?

Dr. Joel Seedman 8:20 Oh, I would say a four, or a five. And I think we have just enough knowledge that if we don't use it just right, it can actually put us in a little bit of jeopardy. And we can we can abuse it because it's you back even the SWAT analogy, you have a lot of people taking some of this information, and they use it. And they they destroy their joints, and they have to get surgery and it's you know, people will say, Oh, well I heard this from you know, mainstream fitness or from fitness experts or fitness gurus and the research substantiated, but now my my knees are shot, my neck, my hips were low back is fried, what's going on here. So we do have to be very careful. And taking the research and saying, well, based on some of these studies, it was suggest that this might be a potential potential way to do something. But yeah, I would say four or five. And I would say even the same thing for nutrition because it's funny. Every few years, there's these nutrition recommendations in the industry. And then several years later, we see different recommendations that not only disagree but actually recommend the exact opposite. It's kind of a funny parody in the field, but it's actually similar in the field of Kinesiology too. So I think we have to be careful of, you know, realizing that we still have a lot of work to do and a lot of research to be done.

Nick VinZant 9:41 Even though that you know, that kind of high end necessarily seems to be changing all the time. Or the basic still the basics, like the basic stuff works, right like you want to lose weight, eat less calories, you want to get stronger lift weights, like are the basic still the basics or does even that change

Dr. Joel Seedman 9:59 you know That's that's the key is the basics are still the basics, because fundamental principles, the foundational elements that have produced success for decades are still kind of the go to methods. And if we deviate too far from that, I think that's where we start running into issues. In, you know, some of these kind of extreme diets that we see are these extreme training protocols are these really exaggerated? Kind of methods that we've seen in really unique programs, it's like, Okay, this is deviating so far now, and maybe, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be purely old school and looks simple, it just has to rely on kind of foundational elements of the practical sciences, you know, you have to look at basic elements of, you know, muscle physiology, for example, and human physiology things that we've known now for for decades, even possibly, you know, close to a century now, things in the field of biomechanics that relate to physics, which we've known for decades, if not centuries now. I think dealing with neuro muscular physiology, and then neurology, and then we have to say, Okay, now let's take some of the current research and compare and contrast it to what we know to be true about some of those foundational elements. And if they match up, I think we're good to go. If they they really contradict each other, then I think we run into issues. So I think, you know, on the head, I think, you know, we do have to stick to the basics, we can't deviate too far. But that doesn't mean we can't gradually improve, improve on the basics, as long as we don't go too far away from them.

Nick VinZant 11:29 Are people's bodies really that different? Like, do they really respond that differently to certain things? Or is it more of a mindset kind of thing?

Dr. Joel Seedman 11:40 This is this is a topic of much debate in the industry, among strength coaches, and practical of kinesiologist. And I would argue that the human body from person to person is very, very similar. And you'll have different fitness experts and different researchers, they will everybody's different. There's individual differences, individual differences with anthropometrics, and joints, and, you know, our anatomy or structural anatomy and, you know, the way we function, you know, I mean, some people are more fast, which some people more slow twitch, some people more carbs messages from people or, you know, have great insulin sensitivity where they handle carbs really well, from what I've seen, in my condition going on 17 years now in this industry, is that generally speaking, the human body is the human body in, you know, you kind of maintain 90%, of what you do with clients and with individuals and athletes is actually going to be very similar. And if you start to have to, you know, adapted so much, where it's like, oh, my gosh, this is totally different for this person compared to, you know, this other client of mine is like, Whoa, why is that much different? The human body is still the human body. Functional anatomy is still functional anatomy, physiology is still physiology, yes, there are some subtle, individual differences, but they're much, much more subtle, as I said, and much smaller than what a lot of people in the field suggest, you know, some people will say, Oh, well, this person should only squat, you know, 90 degrees, but this person, because they can, they should squat, you know, astagraf. And I think that's one of the things that we have to watch out for. Just because we can do something doesn't mean it's optimal. And just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's ideal, we have to kind of find and hone in on what are more for the human body. When we do that. We see that is very, very similar across individuals, particularly when it comes to strength training, and even even nutrition to a certain degree.

Nick VinZant 13:39 What is you basical philosophy when you look at exercise in nutrition?

Dr. Joel Seedman 13:45 Well, I guess I can touch on the more simple one first, which would be nutrition. I like to recommend foods to clients that pretty much have not been processed or have been very minimally processed. I usually like to recommend a slightly higher protein diet, but not too high. You see some pretty extreme recommendations out there. So typically, one gram per lean pound of body weight or per pound dependent, halleen, individualized, and then moderate carbs, you see also a lot of suggestions, you know, taking the carbs down to a very bare minimum, and then some people not even touching carbs, I like to go moderate on the carbs, and then even on the fat kind of moderate, so I like to play things a little bit more conservative, because as we've seen with these huge fad diets, and even some of the research is so mixed and conflicting. And as soon as we start eliminating the food or really going overboard and a certain food and in hardly touching another food or you know, just barely even eating it. I think that those extremes are where we start running into issues. Strength training, on the other hand, my approaches is probably a little bit different than than most I really like to focus on biomechanics and muscle functioning and quality of movement. And when we lock that in, we teach a person how to move correctly how to fire their muscles properly. and activate them in their proper way, that's when we start opening up all these doors, that's when we start, you know, we can get a lot more advanced, we can get a lot more creative with them, we can push them, we can really progress them quickly because their muscles are performing their job well, when it comes to anything from, you know, increasing muscle mass, if the muscles not activating properly, it's very, you know, you really can't grow muscle if it first hasn't been activated. And then even from a health longevity standpoint, and joint health, if the muscles are not doing their job properly, which a lot of people you know, they run into these issues where they've been training six months, a year, two years, their their bodies are banged up, their shoulders hurt, their knees hurt their hips are and a lot of that comes down to technique, and biomechanics. So if we can, if we can fix biomechanics, and really correct them and perfect them as close as we can, in a realistic fashion, enables us to train long term without running into these, you know, plateaus or run into these obstacles of, you know, having our joints hurt having to take multiple steps back because it's getting injured. So for me, the biomechanics and the movement patterns and learning how to move correctly is a key foundational aspect of things.

Nick VinZant 16:11 How do you kind of create that, that mobility and, and being able to move correctly? Because it sounds like a lot of, you know, exercises in themselves seem to like, lock into the machine so to speak?

Dr. Joel Seedman 16:25 Exactly. No, it does. I think, you know, machines are great. And a lot of people do use machines, I have nothing against machines provided that they're biomechanically sound, which a lot of them are not, it does lock you into a specific path, which is why I prefer using freeways for the most part because it forces the individual to have to basically create a strong mode reprogramming their central nervous system. For example, kind of go back to squat here, if someone does not know how to squat properly, chances are, those issues can be seen and observed in their basic walking gait and their basic movement in their in their posture, the way they pick things up off the ground, if they're playing sport, we can probably see how it transfers into the running form into their jumping. So if we can correct their movement, with strength training with basic, foundational, you know, movement patterns, such as the squat, and unless they have a neat collapse to the ankles, class, they don't know how to load their hips, well, if we could correct it on the squat, we see start to trickle into everyday life. And as well as competition, playing on the field for sports, you know, if we can teach them how to fire their hips, during a squat, it transfers and translates into other things in the other movement patterns, because it's foundational, almost, that's why it's so important that we take foundational movements such as squats, hinges, lunges, presses, rows, overhead presses, pull downs, and basically perfect the movement on that. And I'm a big believer in not using excessive range of motion, but using optimal range of motion. A lot of people think that, you know, maximal range of motion and maximal mobility is the goal. It's really not just like everything in physiology, there's a balance, we never want too much or too little of anything, we always want the optimal amount.

Nick VinZant 18:10 Can you create an athlete? I mean, can you can you like take somebody and really create them into an athlete? Or are you just basically improving somebody?

Dr. Joel Seedman 18:22 That's a good question. I think there is that there's a range here, I think, when it comes to high level performance, I think there is an element of genetics that have to be in place, because we know now that yes, we can cause muscle fibers to adapt, they can become more fast twitch and slow twitch, you know, we can improve, you know, motor unit recruitment, we can we can improve, you know, intramuscular coordination, we can improve all these different elements of performance, but there has to be certain genetic elements in place not With that said, most people never even come close to optimize their human potential, because their training is not ideal. And so if you take an athlete who let's say they have decent genetics, but not great genetics decent and you give them incredible train, and they do everything to the tee, and they follow, you know exactly what you lay off for them, chances are, they may actually be able to play at a pretty high level, provided they continue to stay consistent with their training. Now, you could also have an individual who has incredible genes, and just everything kind of fell into place with their genetic pool and their DNA. But if they don't have the right training, you know, things oftentimes don't work out for them. We see this with, with athletes in every sport, you know, you have these people who should have been superstars and they never pan out because they didn't put the correct work in then you have other athletes who, genetically were not as gifted, were not as blessed. And they actually have great success because their training was so much better. I think that the flip side of that, too, is if you take someone who just has really poor genetics, and you know, I know it's probably not the most politically correct thing to say But they just didn't get blessed with the optimal gene pool. They're not, you know, you can you can train them to the hilt, and they still aren't gonna be able to maybe be that high level athlete, will they be athletic enough to be able to have fun with their sport and do it recreationally without injury? Yes. 100%? So that's a good question.

Nick VinZant 20:18 How do you kind of evaluate both you and both researchers in the field? Like, how do you evaluate what works necessarily? Are you like measuring the size of the muscle the weight that's lifted? Like how do you tell what is working?

Dr. Joel Seedman 20:35 There is such a complex answer to that seemingly simple question. But there's so many assessment methods out there, there. You guys trained coaches that will spend hours assessing folks, I used to actually be one of those, I used to do a lot of assessment, say, we're going to go through all these different muscle screening processes and, and really look at your movement and analyze and go over deeply before we start training. And what I realized is that the need to assess, and to only assess, I should say, because basic assessment is good, the need to really assess is oftentimes a little bit unnecessary. If we teach the person how to move properly, let's say they let's say they come in, they have, you know, really bad hip pain and knee pain, you know, we could spend hours and hours if not days, analyzing them and assessing the daylights out of them and sending them to 20 different, you know, experts and getting 20 different results, you know, the recommendations would be, and you could just drive yourself nuts with that. And they could still walk away having no solutions, still having the same amount of pain, still not having the ability to have high level of function and do their athletic events that they want. But in contrast, we can say, hey, let's just take a real quick look at your movement here and kind of see some underlying things. And then once we just kind of take a blank slate, teach them how to fire their muscles properly, teach them how to, to set their their biomechanics, set their hips to work on their alignment, to get their feet locked into to create those neutral positions, then we have them start moving and firing their muscles. And literally within a, sometimes a session, we can start to see some improvements where the client is saying, Wow, my hips feel better, my knees don't hurt as much, I'm starting to see improvements, like it feels so much better, I can squat out without having pain, you know, I've never been able to squat, or at least the last five years have been able to squat without pain. And now they can do that. And they start buying into it and they start to see those immediate improvements. I think for me, that's one of the biggest kind of measures and indicators that I look at is the level of function, the level of pain and how you know, it feels for the for the client, because of our sense of feel is so important. So underrated in the feedback that clients give you from that sense of fuel, that progress or feedback is so important.

Nick VinZant 22:48 I was looking at your Instagram, which is fantastic. And some of the exercises like I've never even seen that before. Do I? Do I need to be doing that kind of stuff? Or can I just like, I just get by on the elliptical machine

Dr. Joel Seedman 23:05 I do put up a lot of unique exercises. And I always say that, and I get a lot of haters out there who was like, Oh, this is ridiculous. Why don't you do the basics, like, Hey, I often state and I often put in my post that 80% of about 80% of what I do with my athletes or my clients, even myself are the basic foundational movements and nothing too crazy. And then the other 20% we do get a little bit crazy, we can get a little bit unique depending on their their levels and their their capabilities and where they've progressed to. And oftentimes, those really advanced variations, are they absolutely necessary? No, they're not absolutely necessary. If people just focus on the basic math in them, that would that would do the job generally speaking, but sometimes, those really advanced unique movements, they do a few things. First off, it can oftentimes expose issues that we may have not seen with something else. Like if we do a really difficult single exercise and maybe is offset in a certain way where we have load on more of more on one side of the body and the other it makes those a weakness in that particular side of the body or that region of the hip or the ankle that we may have not seen with other things. But the other thing that I The reason I like to post some of these advanced exercises is it shows what's possible when you have mastered the foundations when you have mastered the basics. It opens up all these doors and like I tell people, the reason my clients and my athletes and any myself can do these kind of crazy and wild and advanced stabilization drills that require a ton of coordination and a ton of precision is because we have spent so much time mastering the basics even just a basic bodyweight squat, a basic goblet squat, a basic launch. If you get those down, you become so common and with those you open up the doors and then any other movement that even closely resembles that your body is capable of doing that kind of movement in a nutshell is like hey, if we mastered the basics We can go play any sport we want, we can go run, we can kick, we can throw, we can we can jump, and our bodies will be capable of it as long as we've mastered the basics. So that's one of the key things that I like to focus on.

Nick VinZant 25:11 Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Joel Seedman 25:15 Oh, okay!

Nick VinZant 25:18 Let's start with the easier ones, I guess. Um, best exercise, people aren't doing.

Dr. Joel Seedman 25:24 Ooh, best exercise people are doing, I would say, well, I've just been recently using these a lot myself, just an overhead power holder are really good at basically taking a heavy weight and holding it overhead for you know, 15 to 30 seconds period, really simple. Everyone can do it. It really strengthens just about every muscle in the body, especially the core and the upper body, and it produced a lot of good strength and muscle hypertrophy.

Nick VinZant 25:46 most overrated exercise.

Dr. Joel Seedman 25:50 Ooh, most overrated exercise. Ooh, I would say the front squat. I would say the front squat. The front squat is a lot of people advocate that saying that, you know, easier to do for me. And for a lot of folks, that can be awkward if they've mastered the other squat variations. The front squat is not as necessary.

Nick VinZant 26:08 Do I need to do cardio?

Dr. Joel Seedman 26:14 Ooh, interesting question. I would say it's not necessary. Although it is beneficial, do it. If someone is training very intensely with their strength and conditioning components in a lot of my clients in the law that I work with the train is pretty, it's pretty intense, we go to a pretty good pace, I don't think it's necessary to have to do a lot of additional cardio provided that they're still physically active. What I mean by that is they still have to be moving throughout the day. And I always like to tell people to try to accumulate 30 minutes of walking every day. Everyone's trained, trained intensely several days a week, and they also walked 30 minutes every day, the need to do cardio probably wouldn't be quite as great. Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, because it is very beneficial, but absolutely necessary. Probably not.

Nick VinZant 26:58 Can I wear jean shorts to the gym.

Dr. Joel Seedman 27:04 you can I wouldn't recommend it on upper body days. Probably not a bad probably wouldn't be a big deal. But you might get some unusual looks that could throw off your confidence. You know you that confidence is a big thing. You don't want people looking at you like you're a freak though.

Nick VinZant 27:19 This is I like this one. You trained a lot of athletes, most athletic person you've ever trained just somebody that you looked at and like wow, that they are different.

Dr. Joel Seedman 27:30 Amir of doula. He's a player of the Vikings. He's a genetic freak. He's, I mean, he just watched him do any exercises like wow, this guy is 3% body fat. He's got incredible muscle control even before we started training. Yeah, I think he can have a genetic freak. Nick VinZant 27:50 You can just tell right when they walk into the gym.

Dr. Joel Seedman 27:53 Yeah, totally. Totally. There's certain indicators certain certain telling signs for sure.

Nick VinZant 27:58 How do you feel about bro scientists on social media?

Dr. Joel Seedman 28:05 Well, I mean the bro scientists we have a love hate relationship that I think on there and what they feel is probably more of a hate than a love I'm pretty I'm a pretty loving caring guy, you know, at least I like to think so. But I you don't hold a hard feelings or I don't like to disrespect people, but they tend to be a little bit overly zealous in their training methodologies and they like to rip other people's methods who are different than theirs and I think they tend to maybe get a little bit insecure as well. If they feel I don't know maybe threatened or, you know, like your your what, what you're saying is, you know, kind of telling them that their methods aren't quite right and that my methods are better but you know, they tend to get a little bit of a chip on their shoulder so I don't mind them I think a lot of the the methods and protocols they put out maybe aren't the best or beneficial for a lot of people but at the same time a lot of what we know in the field of Kinesiology actually can stem back to bro science like you know Arnold's things that which a lot of what he did was still pretty solid so I can't rip on the bro guys too much.

Nick VinZant 29:13 This this is assuming pre COVID do i do i need to wipe down a machine if I don't sweat?

Dr. Joel Seedman 29:22 Oh man. I am kind of guilty this but I would say yes. I think out of courtesy and just general gym etiquette. I think it is important especially now as I said before, probably guilty a few times not doing it myself. But I'm a pretty big sweater. So once I start sweating, I definitely wipe down but nowadays got to

Nick VinZant 29:42 what do you think of the kind of thing that I see the lifting every day fad? Is that is that a real thing? Because I remember growing up is like you work out once and then you wait a day.

Dr. Joel Seedman 29:54 Yeah, it's, you know, I A lot of folks can't do that. It's just not practical. For schedule. So I don't always like to recommend that I think it is, can be beneficial. I personally do it because I, you know, I pretty much live in the gym so to speak. So I have the luxury of being able to train every day, it's not necessary, I think, you know, three times a week of work working out and training hard will do the job, if you have the luxury of training 567 days a week and you programmed correctly, and you're providing enough rest, you know, for certain movement patterns. So basically, you wouldn't want to crush the same muscle, the same movement patterns every single time with maximal weight. But if you if you ever want to be able to train everyday you can do and it can actually be very beneficial, but it has to be done right. And technique and form have to be locked in. Because if it's not, you're setting yourself up for disaster with a lot of injuries.

Nick VinZant 30:46 strangest exercise you've ever seen someone do in a gym.

Dr. Joel Seedman 30:51 Oh, man. Shoot. Oh, there was one on posted on Instagram. Somebody brought in like a sword like a real sword. And they were on the elliptical machine. And they were like, flinging it around and doing like, I mean, it was like hardcore combat Lee and they were either training to be an extra in like Game of Thrones, or they had some serious anger issues. They wanted to take advantage. I don't know, man. It was a little freaky. I remember seeing on Instagram, probably about three or four months ago. So that was that was that was pretty crazy right Nick VinZant 31:25 there. Is there like an age where you can see like, oh people this is when somebody's gonna physically declined. Like, is there an age where you can almost pinpoint like, 31? Man, you're done?

Dr. Joel Seedman 31:37 Yeah, it's I would say there is definitely ranges because you will see some some pretty unique. You know, some people can go into their 50s and 60s with bad form and get away with it. You got some kids now you're seeing even high schoolers or even middle schoolers actually start to get injuries. It's really weird that we're seeing so many injuries in young population. So you know, I think people would have said, you know, a decade or two ago, as soon as you hit, you know, your 30s or 40s, you know, things really start to break down. I mean, that's still true. But it's it can start to varying degrees as young as 10 1112 years old now, it's insane. But I would say generally speaking, what I've seen with my athletes and populations, and even in my own body, mid 20s, once those kind of mid 20s hit, if you've been been training hard and you haven't been doing it right, if things start to break down, it's exactly what happened with me it's actually kind of was a blessing in disguise. That was what kind of prompted me to, to go further in this field. Do my own research.

Nick VinZant 32:33 That's really all the questions I've got what's coming up next for you. I know you got a lot of things happening.

Dr. Joel Seedman 32:40 Yeah, no, it's it's an exciting time right now. I've got some good good products on my website I've worked over a long time on I have my book that came out not too long ago, a little over a year ago, movement redefined. I literally spent eight years on that it kind of represents my life's work when it comes to the strength conditioning because it kind of documented everything that I've done over the last 17 years and all the research I did the last eight or nine years and it includes all my training methods and really everything that I do with my athletes and clients including the practical side of it, as well as the the science with hundreds and hundreds of studies to kind of support and explain why I do things the way I do them. So that's that's a big one. It's really been a big seller for me. You know, I got a lot of different athletes I work with baseball season, there's one up here so get someone baseball guys back. And then you know, there's a lot of, I think right now the thing that I'm kind of interested with is we have a lot of injuries going on in the NFL. Fortunately, none of the guys that I've worked with, but I was saying this when COVID hit several, you know, well, I guess months ago now I was thinking this to to all my athletes and to really everyone I would have this discussion with is Watch out when the NFL season and all these sports come back there's going to be a lot a lot of big injuries because guys were not prepared, right, they took a lot of time off and then combined with a lot of the training methods that we see in these professional sports which are subpar. In my opinion, it was just a recipe for disaster. So I think we're gonna have a lot of guys that we got that we got to work on. Hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on some of these guys that got injuries and help them kind of rehab and get back to where they were in beyond with proper training methods. So I think a lot of IT professionals in this field and kinesiologist are going to have to work it off in this next year with all these injuries that we're seeing.

Nick VinZant 34:32 All right, last most important question. How much you bench? Oh,

Dr. Joel Seedman 34:39 man, I mean I haven't maxed out for so long. It would be over 200 pounds let's put it that way. I rarely max out, if I can't do something with a good ecentric isometric hold and and really be able to lock it in for good quality. I rarely touch any more just because the consequences are They outweigh the benefits. So I just don't even I don't even do it.

Nick VinZant 35:05 I want to thank Dr. Seedman, so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. He has a lot of really cool information. I mean, even if you're just checking out his Instagram, some of the exercises there, they just, they give you different ideas, besides just hopping on an elliptical machine walking endlessly, basically, it's cool to kind of check out.

Political Violence Researcher Chelsea Daymon

With the Presidential election fast approaching, tension are rising everywhere. But when do those tension spill over into violence? Political Violence and Terrorism Researcher Chelsea Daymon joins us. We talk domestic extremists, religious terrorists and the internet's role in all of it. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. 

Interview with Political Violence Researcher Chelsea Daymon

Show Notes and topics covered

• What is the most dangerous terrorist group

• What is the most dangerous extremist group

• Is the United States seeing a rise in domestic terrorism

• How are terrorists using the internet and social media

• Is terrorism increasing

• What is the goal of political violence

• Is the United States seeing more far-right terrorism

Nick VinZant 0:11 Hey, everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless, my name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to take a look into the dangerous world of political violence, and then count down the top five Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.

Chelsea Daymon 0:25 And since then we've seen more religious violence, which there is a theory that violence that has a religious angle to it tends to be more lethal. There are a handful of elements broadly, that are looking at the concept of governments and their ideas that the government is too big or too involved in American society. And therefore it needs to change. And more extreme elements may say that it needs to change by bringing down the whole system. And I don't feel like in my lifetime, I've witnessed a time where people are so divided.

Nick VinZant 1:11 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So we usually stay away from politics on this show, just because people get mad, and I don't think that you're going to whichever side you're on, I don't think that you're going to convince anybody. But it's also that mindset. That is something that our first guest studies. Because when you when you look at the current world today, I don't think that anybody would make an argument that tensions aren't high. And those tensions can spill, this can spill over into political violence. Our first guest has some fascinating insight into that world, both domestically here in the United States. And also in terms of terrorism all over the world, and the way that terrorist organizations are using the internet to really get their message across and to recruit people. This is political violence researcher, Chelsea Damon, when you look at political violence right now, are we in a more violent time,

Chelsea Daymon 2:22 We can't really say that we're in a time that's more violent or less violent, there's always been political violence and terrorism throughout history. And today, of course, we see a lot more, mostly, in part because we're so connected as a society. So it's much easier to see what we see on TV or on the internet, and think we're in a time of increased violence. Of course, we have seen a bigger uptick in certain types of political violence, or, as we like to call it terrorism as well, especially since 911. And the whole al Qaeda period that we saw. And then, of course, more recently, in the last number of years, we had ISIS come onto the scene, which really increased a lot of the publicity that we heard about terrorism as well as attacks, both mostly in Iraq and Syria, of course, but also overseas in European countries majorly.

Nick VinZant 3:27 So when we talk about political violence, like what constitutes political violence and terrorism, exactly,

Chelsea Daymon 3:33 so there's debate on that there isn't really an agreed upon definition, although many experts and academics will agree that there are certain elements that equal political violence or terrorism. And that usually includes using violence, most of the time against a population of civilians, and sometimes also government entities or areas, say like a embassy or a base, a military base, but using violence to create either political change or get a message of wanting political change. So using it also almost as what they call a theater of terrorism in the sense of many groups know that if they commit an attack, or what we saw years ago, and especially in the 80s, of hijacking airplanes, that that will get news and it will make the news and it will help the group's message whatever that message might be get more publicity and reach a broader audience that potentially can help them with their cause or gain supporters to their cause.

Nick VinZant 4:51 When you look at kind of the main groups behind political violence all over the world, like who are the big ones that we're talking about,

Chelsea Daymon 4:59 well, that's it. Very loaded question because there are many groups with many different ideologies across the spectrum, currently, or seeing violence that is both causal in the sense that there's a cause back behind it, as well as violence that is based on causes, but also with a religious tinge. But when I say religious, I don't necessarily mean it represents the religion that a group is saying that they're representing. And so there have been waves of terrorism, as they call it. And right now, we do see an uptick in jihadist terrorism, which we've seen for a number of years. And since then, we've seen more religious violence, which there is a theory that violence that has a religious angle to it tends to be more lethal, because there is less restraint in the sense that it is something that potentially in a group's ideology is condoned by a higher power. So there's less restraint in the sense of victims and the types of victims. However, we've also seen political violence that does have angles of more right wing, white supremacist leanings, that's something we're also seeing an uptick in. But it also gets quite complicated because, of course, in the States, for something that may be from the outside looking at it, from seeing it on the news or hearing about it in a newspaper, we might think right away, well, oh, that's terrorism. However, our justice system, sometimes it's much easier to try someone in the court of law, not on terrorism charges, but more on Hate, hate crimes and so forth, just because of the way our justice system works. Some of the shootings that maybe someone would say, No, that's terrorism, because they do have an angle that's trying to change some sort of part of the political society, however, isn't like a, an attacker isn't charged on terrorism charges. So

Nick VinZant 7:12 when you kind of look at what's happening in the States, is domestic terrorism, the biggest, the biggest kind of cause for concern? Are we still more worried about foreign terrorism,

Chelsea Daymon 7:23 I would say that foreign terrorism is always a potential issue. I mean, we do have a lot of implementations that we've established here in the States since September 11, which does make it a lot harder for groups to overseas groups, let's put it that way to stage attacks in the US. And I think that's also partly why we saw less ISIS or ISIS inspired attacks here in the States versus what we saw in the last number of years in European countries. However, that doesn't mean that we won't see potentially threats that are either called homegrown threats, or lone wolf is another term. There's a lot of debate on what we should really call them. However, we also have seen a huge uptick since Obama was elected in more right wing extreme right, whatever you want to term it groups or militias here in the States. And we have not actually seen those groups or even leaderless movements reduce, we have seen an increase in attacks that needy it might be on the part of one individual or a couple of individuals. However, it falls under some of the ideas of this extreme right. And the concept of like a leaderless movement. And it gets very tricky, because in the States, we of course, have the First Amendment and freedom of rights and freedom of speech. And when it comes to foreign groups, we have a foreign terrorist list that groups are designated on that list. And when you get into more propaganda and things found on the internet and content on the internet, it's a lot easier to take down content that is attributed to one of these groups on the foreign terrorist list.

Nick VinZant 9:26 When you look at those kind of groups, the ones here in the States, the right wing, white supremacy, like what are they trying to accomplish? What's the goal behind the violence?

Chelsea Daymon 9:36 Once again, that is a loaded question, because it's, it's hard to say that each group or each movement has the same goals. There are multiple branches if you could call them that, or narratives or ideologies that stem from a greater Greater concept, but that all have sort of different things that they're aiming for, I can highlight some of the main things that we see broadly over the more right wing, white nationalists, and all of the other things that fall under that spectrum. One is, of course, the issue of race, and, of course, white power. So a lot of the things you see with neo nazi groups, etc. There are a handful of elements broadly, that are looking at the concept of governments and their ideas that the government's is too big or too involved in American society. And therefore it needs to change. And more extreme elements may say that it needs to change by bringing down the whole system, and then rebuilding. So it's this idea of almost a utopian idea of create or escalate violence, or elements that will escalate unrest so that eventually the system falls, and then a group of individuals will come in and rebuild society into this idea of what they think it should be. And there's a lot of debate in the field about a concept of acceleration ism. And I am not an expert on that. But I can kind of give you a brief idea of the main concept, although there's a lot of elements within that that certain scholars and academics debate on. But acceleration ism is this idea that you accelerate the process of a societal collapse. So therefore, you can rebuild the society into what you think it should be. And while we see that with groups here in the States, we also could say in a sense that certain jihadist groups could also fall into that. And I know this will be very controversial. But if you look at ISIS per se, ISIS had its goal of creating a caliphate during its heyday and ruling land and having this so called state. Of course, the lost the territory, as we've seen now, although the trying to regain some of it. However, ISIS also had an apocalyptic angle to its message and its goals. And will McCants wrote a great book called ISIS apocalypse that's all about this. And if you think about that, the idea of bringing on the apocalypse or the collapse of society, it's almost something that a lot of groups, at some point have in the back of their minds of collapsing society or having an apocalypse then therefore, you build a utopian society afterwards.I mean, a lot of the narratives here in the states that we're seeing is also very anti immigrant, anti the other, there's this concept of othering, in psychology and social sciences of groups, look at themselves, as you know, you're a member of a group, but everyone else that's not a member is outside of the group, they're an other and when individuals take othering to the extreme, because of course, we could say, looking at as an analogy of sports teams here in the state, someone could say that they like baseball team a. And then you have a friend that likes baseball team B. And you know, each one is a member of or supports a different group. And yes, you can see that your friend that likes baseball, Team A is the other and it's more a fun thing. And you know, you joke about your team that you better and so forth. But if you take that to the extreme, and we see this with violence, in general, and in terrorism studies, you can actually look at the other and start dehumanizing them as an individual, we see this with hate crimes as well in terrorism. And when you look at someone so much as an other and dehumanize them, then it's much easier to commit acts of violence against them because you don't really see them as human. And we're seeing some of this to an extent, like I said, with rhetoric on anti immigrant, and so forth and individuals from different nationalities and races, unfortunately. And it's it's hard to times separate some of this rhetoric with things we do here in in coming from politicians, because we have seen a lot of debates on immigration here in the States. And so I think while that comes from more of a political debate, sometimes these ideas She will, more extreme elements to take on these narratives and adjust them to their own liking and their own messaging to gain support.

Nick VinZant 15:11 So when I look at some of the ones, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but some of the ones here in the States and other places, it seems almost as if like, it's the dog chasing the car, so to speak, like with these groups, if they got what they want, would they really even know what to do? Right, like, let's say, this movement in the states takes down the government. Well, now what? Like, did they have any kind of organization? Are they just kind of trying to start the revolution and see what happens?

Chelsea Daymon 15:41 That's a really great question. And I personally cannot answer that. I don't think I mean, some will probably disagree with me. But I don't think that a lot of these movements in the States, at least in their current form, are strong enough have the resources and the manpower to actually overthrow the governments. I think some of them have capabilities, enough to create more civil unrest.

Nick VinZant 16:08 How were some of these different groups using the internet? I know, that's one of the things that you kind of study.

Chelsea Daymon 16:13 Yeah. So it's interesting. Once again, it's similar and different, depending on the types of groups we're talking about. I'm sure some of your listeners at least have heard about the Islamic State ISIS. And their use of the internet, because they really kind of took the internet and what it had to offer to the next level, ISIS came on the scene, of course, during this age where there is much more fluidity, and you could be your own propagandist and own content creator, where they were actually very smart with their media capabilities. And this was from everything from using these platforms, to also using software and creating videos that were actually really most of them really well done. Not all of them, but they they had capabilities, where the editing, and the way that they the stories within these videos, and the way the videos were done, were very dynamic. And depending on where you stood on the spectrum, like if you were someone that potentially was looking at ISIS as a group that you might want to join the videos, in the heyday of ISIS were really well done to the extent that they were engaging. I mean, even as a researcher, you can see the difference between older groups and how they used media and videos between ISIS group videos and groups, as well as using platforms like they used to use more social media platforms that were not as heavily encrypted. They later moved to encrypted platforms, but before they were on Twitter, and had a very strong presence on Twitter until about 2016, when Twitter heavily crackdown on ISIS accounts in any ISIS supporter accounts. But before that, you know, they were disseminating content links to content across other websites and and sharing sites and other social media platforms where you could also get content. And so they really knew how to utilize these platforms to spread their message spread their propaganda, hijacking, hashtags like for at one point, they hijacked a Justin Bieber hashtag and flooded Twitter, with ISIS propaganda. So if anyone went to this Justin Bieber hashtag, they started seeing ISIS content, change the game a little bit. It made ISIS and its supporters move to encrypted platforms, which their favorite one was telegram and on telegram, it still allowed them to disseminate all of their content, including everything from the videos, to newsletters to magazines. ISIS inspired gifts and memes. And so it gave them an environment of supporters and like minded individuals. It also cut down on how much they could recruit because it was or it is telegram is an encrypted platform and therefore, you need to have access to it. And then when you have access to it, you have to find access to channels or chats that are ISIS supporters or ISIS news agencies and so forth. But as as researchers and the tech companies and industries realized what was going on, through the years it's they've become much better at getting rid of content and preventing From being spread across different platforms, there's a organization gifts si t that works with some of the big names like Google and YouTube and also smaller entities to share information when when something is posted on one website. So say like a video was posted on YouTube, they can identify that content through digital hashes. And then the digital hashes are shared amongst a whole consortium of tech companies and social media companies, etc, which can take that content off of all the platforms all at once. But they do tend to try to go to platforms that are a little bit more secure, that have some sort of encryption. But they also are on platforms like Tick tock, and we've seen them on WhatsApp and rocket chat is another one. So when we think of content from more of the right wing, white supremacist groups, once again, that gets a little bit more complicated because of freedom of speech and laws on being able to post things, especially here in the States. So a lot of content tends to stay on platforms unless it violates their terms of service, or use, which as a user of say, Twitter or Facebook, when you have an account, you agree to abiding by these terms of service or use. So that's a whole nother can of worms.

Nick VinZant 21:38 Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Chelsea Daymon 21:44 Oh, my Oh, okay. Yes, let's let's try this out. Hopefully, I'll be able to answer them.

Nick VinZant 21:48 What scares you?

Chelsea Daymon 21:51 Hmm. Wow. You know, no one has ever asked me that question. And I think that's a fabulous question. And it can go in so many directions. But I, for me, personally, what scares me is not necessarily related to say, terrorist groups political violence. It's, it's more looking at, especially here in the States, I'd say, I feel like there's a greater division of society, then. I remember growing up, I mean, I'm American citizen, I've lived overseas as well. But I've spent most of my life in the States. And I don't feel like in my lifetime, I've witnessed a time where people are so divided. And I feel like Unfortunately, the division is creating. I wouldn't say culture, that's not the right word. But it's creating an environment that it's it's very hard to have a rational conversation with individuals about topics, whether it might be politics, or say, like the protests we've seen here in the States. And I feel like facts and entities and individuals that we used to be able to look at as figures that would provide straight facts and reliable facts. Like we don't always have that anymore. And and as someone that kind of sometimes does a deep dive with extremist groups and cycle psychology of individuals involved and narratives and propaganda and so forth. If you do see that, somewhat. And so I think that scares me is that that lack of rational thinking that I'm witnessing in our society here in the States?

Nick VinZant 23:51 Is there a kind of a common theme among people who get sucked into these different groups?

Chelsea Daymon 23:57 Ah, you know, that's something that all of us, including researchers from years ago, before my time, people have always wanted sort of a profile of someone that will become a terrorist. And I think maybe people that watch, especially TV shows that have to do with true crime or shows that are based around investigations and so forth of crime. You know, there's this idea that there's a profile of a serial killer or proof profile of a race, rapist. And people have tried to come up with a profile of someone that will get involved in in terrorism or political violence. And to this date, we do not have one. It's all the research we've seen. It's very much a personal process and very individualized. There are some things that people might have in common, but once again, it's not everyone. It can be everything from we've seen people that are disgruntled about something that they see in their society or their their environment and and this level of disenfranchisement or or disgruntlement can lead to more feelings of anger, where they get to the point that they think the only way they can express these feelings is through violent actions. We've also seen where, especially, for instance, with individuals that traveled to ISIS from foreign countries that were not involved in Syria or Iraq, so what we call foreign fighters. Like individuals, we saw a handful of groups of friends that went from countries like the UK, and they traveled together for ice to ISIS to join the group. And, and this kind of falls into this idea of sometimes people, it's, it's going with a crowd, or going along with their friends, or looking for an adventure, or also the concept of being involved in something that they think is bigger than themselves. So when you kind of look at individuals that have relayed their story of getting involved in groups, a lot of the time you can actually point relate to some of the things they say like sometimes people truly thought that a group and their motives was for a good cause.

Nick VinZant 26:30 feet to the fire, you had to pick one. Who's the most dangerous group out there right now?

Chelsea Daymon 26:35 Oh, wow. Um, I'm not sure I could say there's a most dangerous group, because they all are. There are a lot of active groups, they all have different motivations and different things that they want. I mean, if you had asked me that question, say a couple of years ago, I would would have said ISIS just because they're highly active and fairly well organized in the sense of getting individuals and motivating Angel individuals to join them, and then also commit acts on their part. But now, I don't know if it's necessarily a specific group, I do see the rise in this extreme alt right, right wing narratives that we're seeing as dangerous. I wouldn't necessarily say they're dangerous on the level of attacks. Like, I don't I don't see that. It's on the level of like, what we saw on 911, and so forth. So I, I couldn't really say that there's the most dangerous group, I think there are a lot of active groups. And we will probably see groups across multiple spectrums take advantage of governments that are preoccupied with COVID-19. Because that is kind of what's putting a strain on a lot of countries right now.

Nick VinZant 28:03 That's pretty much all the questions I have what's coming up next for you.

Chelsea Daymon 28:07 Oh, next for me is continuing my PhD, which I'm highly involved in. So that's a long process, of course. So dissertation research and writing and so forth. And then continuing research, of course, specifically on groups use of the internet and platforms. And other than that, I guess it's it's kind of like a day by day thing at this point.

Nick VinZant 28:33 I want to thank Chelsea so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Backup Singer Sara Mann

From touring with Miley Cyrus and performing with WIllie Nelson, to singing in Rogue One and Frozen 2, Sara Mann is the renowned voice behind some of your favorite entertainment. We talk the life of a backup singer, touring with pop stars and singing in movies. Then, we unveil a criminally good Top 5.

Interview with Back Singer and Session Singer Sara Mann

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Sara Mann: Backup and Session Singers

Episode notes

• How do you become a backup singer

• How do you become a session singer

• How much does a backup singer make

• How much does a session singer make

• What’s it like to tour with Miley Cyrus

• Are backup singers better than the main star

• What are artists looking for in a backup singer

• Backup singers that became major stars

• Do backup singers also do solo work

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're gonna go on a musical journey and count down a criminally good top five

Sara Mann 0:24 as a backup singer. There's more to it, I guess than just the music part of it. There's also I guess, a look and an energy on stage. I mean, like frozen to shore. I knew that was gonna be a big one. And those those were probably the most stressful sessions to date for me of my life. Like that was more nerve wracking for me to go into that room and sing on that that movie than being in a stadium singing in front of 20,000 people as Miley Cyrus is backup singer. There were so many screaming kids, it was just kids and like glow sticks for days and miles. And it was amazing.

Nick VinZant 0:59 I want Thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So our first guest has done just an incredible amount of stuff in the music business. And she's someone that you have probably seen and heard and just not realized it. Because she's been on tour with everybody from Miley Cyrus, Sheryl Crow, Willie Nelson, and appeared in movies like Rogue One and frozen two. This is backup and session singer. Sara Mann, what essentially are you doing? Like what's the purpose of having a backup singer?

Sara Mann 1:40 I mean, the music has been pre recorded, usually and there are already harmonies and things that have that are on that record. So then if you go live and you go see the concert, you kind of your ears used to hearing whatever you heard on, you know, on that record, you're used to hearing the melody And then there's oohs and ahhs and all sorts of stuff and obviously the lead singer can't do that on his or her own. So then there are backup singers and backup singers fill in the other harmonies and the other parts that are that were written in the song, but I just wanted to add as a backup singer, there's more to it, I guess, than just the music part of it. There's also I guess, a look and an energy on stage. You know, there's, there are stereotypical backup singers that are you know, we're dancing and we're smiling and we're in tight, you know, maybe some are in little black dresses. And, you know, there's kind of like a stigma to it, where it's, it's also adding part of the show. So there's, there's that as well. Part of the entertainment of it. In regard to what I'm doing now, I do less backup singing than I did 10 years ago, because I'm a mom now and I have kids. For the past at least 10 years I've been more of a session singer doing recording stuff in studio, instead of going out on the rode, I don't go I don't tour as much. I do a little bit, but not like I used to.

Nick VinZant 3:04 So a session a session, I'll be able to pronounce this eventually. session singer is what

Sara Mann 3:13 Basically a session singer is a studio singer, where basically we are, we go into a recording studio or like right now we're singing from home in our own home studios. And there's either music put down in front of you and you sing what the composer wrote or you're singing, you know, some backgrounds that maybe you came up with on your own or were discussed, and you're recording it into a microphone, as you know, versus being on stage live singing. session singing also, you know, when you hear when you're watching a movie, there's you know, choir going on in the background in the score. I don't know if you've ever noticed that or not. But that is there's a group of singers that's actually recording that choir sound

Nick VinZant 3:59 I was looking at that in your bio. You've worked in some really big movies recently. I mean, alita battle angel, venom predator, Rogue One.

Sara Mann 4:08 That's all yeah, those are all choir. Those are all big, big choirs with lots of lots of singers. So do you ever go back and listen, you'll go Oh, because when I was younger, I sang on a couple things when I was in elementary school, like home alone, I think on those movies. And that was, that was my first I was well, first of all, I was in choir when I was in elementary school and high school and college. So I learned how to, you know, that's how to blend and you know, you start reading music when you're young and doing that. And then I had a choir teacher at my high school who knew the vocal contractors in town who knew the composer's in town and they said, We need some kids to sing on a couple films. And so I was chosen with a couple other kids to go and sing. You know, like, I kept that bell sweet sour bells like that kind of stuff. So I did it when I was younger, and then my career kind have changed I wanted to be on Broadway in the middle after after high school and then I decided I wanted and then I fell into backup singing and you know,

Nick VinZant 5:07 can you go back in and can you pick out your voice like that? That's me on Rogue One. That's me, right?

Sara Mann 5:13 Oh no, not at all. There are no not for something like that. There are movies that I can that but I was paid, you know, more as this or hired more as a soloist? I have some friends that do. I think a lot of like, I'm not a soprano, but a lot of Sopranos. There's more solo opportunities for choir film, work solo stuff, like there be one beautiful lilting soprano voice kind of you know, soaring above the others. You've probably heard that in a film maybe not even realized it just to I'm not going to demonstrate it because that's not my forte but that is something where you would be able to go Oh, that's me. You know if that's me, I got to do that. I don't do that. That. That's not my my wheelhouse, but I've done a lot of voices and stuff so there are times there are things like for example saying the movie saying and I know you have kids there are I did I did a lot of different little voices in that movie with a couple girls and we did primarily the most well known one are the three bunnies that go out my gosh, look at her, but

Nick VinZant 6:25 I know exactly what you're talking about.

Sara Mann 6:27 Yeah, that's it. That's a moment where the first girl that talks the way that they mixed it we didn't i didn't know for sure who was we didn't know who's gonna get picked for what but the way they mixed it in that movie. The first Bunny is me. And then the second Bunny is another girl and the third Bunny is another girl. And we did so that's that first funny I know is my voice so I can always go That's me. And then we also did the spiders and we were there's these little foxes that come out and they sing. I think in Japanese that they're like okay and IKEA, IKEA. They do this. They keep trying to audition to be in To show in the movie and that's us. We did. We did a handful of stuff and we sang backgrounds on all those songs. So yeah, that's the movie where I'm like, Oh, that's me, I can hear me. There's some Disney like, teen beach, those that like, you know, those kind of movies where this team I can't talk easy movies where, you know, once in a while like I might have been alone on my part, which is an alto part or something and I'll go Oh, that's me because I was the only one singing that note. But I'm the only person that would really know that. Really? Yeah. A recent thing that's kind of cool is frozen to the making us that's on Disney Plus, they we sang on that there were some different sessions with group singers. And if you watch the making of you'll see me in there, which was kind of fun because I know they had cameras on us he so now I don't know what Episode Episode Three or four and there's some there's a couple of shots of the choir, I'm standing in there.

Nick VinZant 8:02 So when you go into these different projects, like do you know if it's gonna be a big thing or not? Going into it

Sara Mann 8:08 not always no. I mean, you obviously you hope that even big thing meaning monetarily speaking,

Nick VinZant 8:16 I would say just overall, right like it's gonna be big a lot of people are gonna pay attention and it's gonna be big.

Sara Mann 8:22 I mean, like frozen to shore. I knew that was gonna be a big one. And those those were probably the most stressful sessions to date for me of my life. Like that was more nerve wracking for me to go into that room and sing on that movie than being in a stadium singing in front of 20,000 people as Miley Cyrus is backup singer like that. That wasn't like singing in a recording studio for frozen two was more scary for me. But that's probably because of the stigma with that movie. But we don't a lot of the times we don't know what we're going to go into saying the day we go in. We have no idea what it is. They don't generally try not to tell You've just for, you know, NDA purposes you go in, and then there's usually some kind of announcement like, this is what you're singing on today, sometimes, you know ahead of time.

Nick VinZant 9:09 So I'll be really direct, like, how much do you get paid for this?

Sara Mann 9:14 That all varies. It depends on if it's a if it's a film, or if it's TV pays differently if it's a giant choir of singers you get paid less than if it's just you by yourself, you know, solo, there's a solo singer scale, and then there's a three to six and then, you know, are you asking like specific numbers?

Nick VinZant 9:36 Sure, if you want to give them yeah,

Sara Mann 9:38 I don't think I know that, um, off the top of my head.

Nick VinZant 9:41 It sounds basically like a comfortable living.

Sara Mann 9:45 Well, that depends on how often you get to work. If you if you're doing one session, and honestly, I do think many of us have other jobs that we do. For example, my ex husband and I opened two restaurants together while I was on tour as a backup singer for Miley Cyrus, so while that was being a backup singer certainly paid the bills and was able to support both of us during that time, he was able to go open the restaurants while I was on the road singing. But now, I mean, there are times when I'm not on the road, you're not making any money at all. So that money, usually, you know, you have to be smart with it, put it in the bank. If you go on tour for three months, you're not going to go on tour again, right after that. And artists generally tours, maybe a couple times a year, or maybe one big tour a year and then they go home and they record a whole record. And then they release that record and then they have to do promo for it. And then maybe comes a tour assuming that the record does well or if it's a big artist, there's always a tour. But those are like once a year kind of things. So you're making a big chunk of money for three months. And that's all you have for that year. Let's say if that's the only artists that you work for, this is the backup singing world. Talking about. So, you know, having another job is not a bad idea. The same thing goes for session settings. If you do one session or maybe two sessions a month, maybe you're making, maybe you're making $500 on that day for that one session, and maybe the next time you do it, you made another 500. So that's you made $1,000 that month, you probably need another job, whether whether it's residuals coming in from other sessions you did or you sing in a choir that pays or you teach on the side, I think many of us do other things, which is why I was going back to the restaurant thing for me. That was my, you know, I was always I did waitressing and hostess saying and I was a receptionist. I had so many jobs like, my resume looks fortuitous. But I also I also did a lot of things that that's not on my website. You know, if I were to be like, Oh, yeah, look, I was on tour with Miley Cyrus but I was also a receptionist at Tata yo in Hollywood. Nobody knew.

Nick VinZant 12:00 Did you ever get discouraged throughout your career? Did you ever feel like you needed to try something else?

Sara Mann 12:06 I have done quite a bit of pounding the pavement throughout my life. You know, wanting to out of college, I wanted to be on Broadway. I moved to New York. I lived in New York, I auditioned for everything. I got called back for everything. I didn't get cast in most of those things. And there was a lot of disappointment there for me and then you kind of have to pave your own way. With one No, you know, comes a yes in a different form. I auditioned for Aida on Broadway. I didn't get the part. But the piano player liked me and said, Do you want to come audition for Harry Belafonte? And I was like, Sure. So then I went audition for Harry Belafonte. And I got a job as his backup singer. So I was like, you know, they're my, my lifelong dream of being on Broadway flipped to Okay, well, at least now I'm making money as a backup singer from for, you know, an amazing humanitarian and activist. So I'm not going to complain about this. But you know, I There's but there's still that little thing inside of me. It's like, I wish I would have, you know, stayed in New York and tried test a little bit harder to, you know, so I don't know, maybe it's that kind of thing. Maybe it's you maybe I should just go back to New York and but Broadway's not really working anyway.

Nick VinZant 13:17 Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Sara Mann 13:21 just become a doctor 60 by the time you graduate from med school, but that's okay.

Nick VinZant 13:27 As my as one of my uncle's said, you can always just sell drugs. Thanks. Thanks, uncle. That's really helpful. Um, how did you kind of get started?

Sara Mann 13:39 Well, that was it in a nutshell. I Went, went to college for musical theater. Once he graduated, moved and worked at a couple recording studios because I was still this is the thing I was still in college, but I'm still playing guitar and piano and writing my own songs. I got a record deal right out of college with MCA and recorded some stuff for them moved to New York. still wanted to be on Broadway. I mean, I was kind of doing this chameleon thing where I was, you know, whoever wanted me, whatever, whatever was going to pay the bills I would do as a singer. And then I had this, you know, audition, and the, like I said, the piano player was like, hey, Harry Belafonte is looking for a backup singer. Right now. We're having auditions tomorrow, you should come. And so my agent got the materials and they were messengered over to me, and I learned the stuff and it showed up the next day and I went through series of callbacks for that. But I ended up getting that gig and that led to, you know, more opportunities. For me, like I'm on an airplane going. I remember coming home from Puerto Rico or something with Harry Belafonte. I was sitting next to a guy who, when you're on the road, you always have luggage tags, numbered like luggage tags. So it's like You know, maybe there's 50 people on the tour, everybody gets a number one through 15. Usually, let's say Harry's number was number one, and I was in the band. So I had number eight, and I had all my bags have these tags on them. And the guy sitting next to me, whom I didn't know, had a number tag on his bag from a different tour. And it was a low, it was a low number, meaning, the more important you are, the lower the number is. So I knew this guy's was like number two or something on his bag. And I thought, okay, I wonder what I'm saying. And so I started, of course, he probably didn't even want to talk to me. But I started talking to him, and just got out the information out of them. He's the tour manager for Brian Setzer. And I was like, you know, in my head, I was like, Ding ding, ding, meaning, you know, this is a good opportunity for me to network, although I hate doing it. But I started talking to him. I got his name or he, you know, he said he might be looking for a new backup singer in a couple months. And I was like, Okay, great. You know, here's my info and I followed up with him. I got the audition. I went down to some recording studio in LA met Brian Setzer saying for him, didn't get the job. But then six months later, they had fired the girl that they did hire and they hired me. So, there's just another example of like, you know, right place, right time or right amount of, you know, the bigger the balls. I don't know, that was just me going. Okay. I better say something to him.

Nick VinZant 16:24 When you're auditioning when people are looking for a backup singer. Yeah, I would imagine that they, they want somebody who's obviously really good at it, but did they want them to not stand out too much at the same time?

Sara Mann 16:38 You mean vocally or physically?

Nick VinZant 16:40 Both, I guess.

Sara Mann 16:41 Right. Yeah. Vocal, you know, that's a that's a tough one. I don't know if I want to go on the record with any answer to that. I think it depends, I think, for look for Harry Belafonte. I had was just coming out of college. They, I mean, he, he must he has the biggest heart because I don't think I was really in an attractive place in my life. Like I think I was wearing this is like during Kurt Cobain, like Doc Martens and Levi's and flannels, I cut my hair really short. I were really dark brown lipstick. It was like the late 90s. And I thought, you know, I probably had like 15 pounds to lose. So but but vocally you know, I went in there and I was the right one for the job as a singer. So I but physically, I'm not sure if it really, you know, they kind of had to do a little bit of a makeover on me. I remember. They took me to like the Mac makeup store in New York and I got makeup lessons and they bought me all this stuff and they asked me to grow my hair out. I was asked to lose weight, actually, not specifically by Harry but somebody else on the team thought that it wouldn't be a bad idea if I maybe dropped 10 pounds. That was the first time in my life I'd ever heard something like that. I think that then there are other jobs that I've had where I was asked to double the lead singer. So, yeah, I had to be if just as good if not better than the person that I was singing with. And then physically, I mean, you kind of have to, you definitely don't want to stand. I mean, I don't know, I don't think anybody stands out that more than the star that's on stage. I mean, they don't have to light you that much. You can be in the dark if you want. But then again, you know, a lot of those backup singers are a lot better than who they're the lead singer is. You know, I but I know a lot of these people. So I really can't. I mean, I think, right. I mean, there's a movie called 20 feet from stardom that really touches on all this stuff. And if you've seen it Yeah, I mean, a lot of times the backup singers are a lot better than the person that they're Behind but that's that's just the, you know, I've had a couple of those jobs to where I'm, I'm just going, Oh my god, you know, you're just trying to help the person stay in tune that you're singing backup for.

Nick VinZant 19:12 But there's definitely instances where the backup singers would be better than the main singer.

Sara Mann 19:18 Oh, yeah, i a lot I'm sure a lot of the time, it's like that. I'm usually I think saying back up for Katharine McPhee for years. And I still, you know, anytime that I would be on stage with her, I would just be standing there with my jaw dropped because her voice is so gorgeous. Just like oh my god. So that mean that's an instance where I'm like, oh, God to have her voice, you know, like, I don't sing I don't sing like her. But I also you know, that you know, you can't sing if you think back for Celine Dion, you're definitely you're probably not better. You know what I mean?

Nick VinZant 19:53 That makes sense. To me. They're like, there's there's probably some people that are kind of studio creations and then there's Ones that like oh, wow, they are. Oh, they are the real deal

Sara Mann 20:04 Yeah, I mean I don't know if there are really studio creations anymore. I mean that because the the music business is so different now. I don't really know if I've given much thought to that to be honest because we're all up there. Even if somebody's not the greatest singer, like to be, to be really honest, I think Billy Eilish is super amazing and, and genius and talented and all of those things, but do I think she's the most amazing vocalist? No, I mean, she's, I think she's just got a package of all of this stuff, these amaze these songs and she's self produced all those and, you know, there's a whole thing there, but do I, you know, I don't think it's that hard to say, you know, do you do some of that kind of singing is like, okay, you know, I don't but she can't, but I would, you know, sing back up for a second. You know, because she's, she's an artist. And that's valuable.

Nick VinZant 21:02 Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions? You've been a part of. Let's see Harry Belafonte, Miley Cyrus Billy Ray Cyrus, Katharine McPhee, Sheryl Crow, of all the tours that you've been a part of which one was the funnest tour for you?

Sara Mann 21:24 I'm gonna say Miley. That was just I mean, those being on tour with Miley is like an upper echelon of touring that I hadn't had a chance to do yet. Just flying private and being in like the most amazing hotels for seasons and you know, staying in these hotels and go we really went around the world, which and I had done that with with other people as well. But I think Miley the group, the band, we were all kind of little family and there were only seven eight of us and it was you know, it was fun we had we had some really good good times good tour bus parties and stuff. It was at a good time in my life. I was newly married but having you know, just just feeling like you're kind of in you're in the swing of things, you know?

Nick VinZant 22:21 Yeah, kind of prime of life so to speak.

Sara Mann 22:24 Like 30 years old and just sort of really in you know, no kids yet no major responsibility.

Nick VinZant 22:31 Like the world is yours kind of I know. The feeling right? like everything's kind of clicking was when Wait, which tour was that one was that the wrecking ball? Sara Mann 22:41 tour time was fine. wonderworld Miley worlds I think it was Miley world, or wonder. No wonder world. I'm calling it Miley world, but that's not right. This was like the tail end of the Disney stuff. So we did the climb, which was from her Hannah Montana. The movie We did party in the USA and then wreckingball was after. Okay, so this was a tour like right before that stuff. This is right before she the hair she she went rogue. It's Yeah,

Nick VinZant 23:15 that's like, right. It's kind of before she got really, really super famous, but also when she was kind of in her prime before people were like my Miley,

Sara Mann 23:24 I mean, she was super famous when we were on tour there, but it's a different there were so many screaming kids, it was just kids and like glow sticks for days and miles. And it was amazing. And stuffed animals and like all sorts of stuff. And I haven't been on tour with her in years, but I'm sure it's a totally different group of those kids now grew up, you know, they're in there, whatever they, you know, some of them are in their 20s because she's, she's what in her 30s now, I think so. So Low Earth, Earth 29 or something she was like 18 or 19 when we started when we run tour together it's been 10 years.

Nick VinZant 24:02 So when you go on these tours, is it like people imagine like Rock Star Tours? Who's having fun all the time and alcohol and drugs and crazy stuff? Or is it something else?

Sara Mann 24:13 Definitely a little bit of that? With Yes, but it's it. There's a lot of hard work though that I think people don't, don't realize that we're also doing like, for example, we maybe wake up at, let's say 4am for a lobby call. You drag all your stuff down to the lobby, you go you get on a bus or you Whatever it is, you get to an airport you get on an air first flight out at seven, you fly wherever you need to go if it's you know, sometimes it's like not a private plane, it's just a normal flight. And then you know, you get on and you land in Detroit and then you do as you know, you could go directly from the airport over to soundcheck which at the venue so it's like two o'clock and you do some kind of soundcheck for a couple hours. And then you might maybe have like an hour of downtime and then you go and you have dinner, then you kind of do hair and makeup, you get ready to go. You're really tired so at some point you'd probably tried to catch a nap whether that was on your tour bus if you had one or in the in that like I've I've literally taken folding chairs and put them together in a row like four of them in in my dressing room. And like take in my piece to take when with Harry's to take my costume was so big, it was like this big fluffy dress with different ruffles and stuff. And I could lay it over my body like a blanket and fall asleep like that. Or if it was winter, I would just use my winter coat. But like that's you know, you need if there was no couch for example in the room because a lot of these are like locker rooms for at stadiums and stuff. They're not like cushy dressing rooms the artist now has like they have all their furniture and stuff but you know, I'm just we're stuck in some room that like maybe some hockey team was playing in. So anyway, you could take like four folding chairs so you do that you get a nap you go then you get You've maybe you go have dinner, you go, you do your show the show's over at 11 o'clock at night, and then you finally get to go to bed. And maybe that's only for like five hours. And then you have to get up again and do the whole thing over again. If it's like if you're flying around, or sometimes you fall asleep on the bus, and you wake up that next morning at 7am or something and you're parked in Las Vegas where your next show is and you haven't taken a shower yet and you're not going to take one on the tour bus because nobody does that. But you have to wander inside the venue find you to find a cup of coffee, if you can, I mean, it's there are parts of it that are very, that can be rough, you know you're up there. I don't know how to explain there's, you need food, you know, there's sometimes there's food on your bus, but sometimes you know, you have to get an Uber and go find somewhere to eat breakfast because there's no breakfast on your bus. There might be some cereal and milk or something. But then there are moments where you have a couple days off and you're put up at four seasons insane St Louis or something, and you know you could to go and just see the town for a couple days which is lovely. And then that night you'll probably go have a nice dinner with your band and you know, go to the pool or whatever you know. And so it's, it's, there's a lot there's a lot of hard work there that traveling stuff, the scheduling, the lack of sleep, the lack of food, you don't really know when you're going to get it from where I used to just have snacks in my bag all the time. That kind of stuff. Even down to like when you're going to do your laundry, you know, I would wear my underwear inside out if I had to if I didn't have a chance to do laundry because you're doing it at the venue in a washer and dryer that you find or you have to find the time to go to the laundromat and do your clothes which is also not that glamorous. You know, it really varies. Or you throw down 20 bucks at the next hotel that you're at if you have two days there and you let them do your laundry which is nice to do or you go buy yourself some new clothes and just leave the old ones in hotel rooms. I would do that to get so tired of wearing the same things. I would just leave them somewhere, go here. Here's some jeans

Nick VinZant 28:08 Your favorite song that you've been on?

Sara Mann 28:10 favorite songs that I've been on?I say Hang on. Well, I sing on lady in the tramp, the remake of that recently. And we got to sing some of the original cues over again, which was like a really amazing moment for me that was one of my favorite movies as a kid. So I would say that stuff I also think some of the demos so I didn't get to sing. It didn't go final or anything but I got to sing all the he's a trained and I love him done.Hey, the trail. You know, all that. Janell Monet ended up doing it for the movie, but I got to sing all the demos for it which was like really cool for me.

Nick VinZant 29:00 So, this one's kind of interesting.Um, you don't have to say if this person is good or bad, but person who is least like their public perception,

Sara Mann 29:12 a person who is least like their public perception. I don't think I've worked with anybody that's not quite true to who they are. You know,

Nick VinZant 29:22 obviously you've done a lot of backup work, but you put out some solo stuff as well, right?

Sara Mann 29:28 Yeah, I have. I have a couple of different records over the years but I have a couple singles that I put out recently I did. There's one called human there's another one called the rack like these are just songs that I write and then I we produce them and I just put them out just because I feel like I need to keep keep the wheels turning, you know the other stuff, which is my my own creative stuff. It was, you know, always more of the dream for me to be the lead singer, not the backup singer. But you know, life works however it works. And I did put out a record, which is super close to my heart called lullabies, which is, I did a duet with Billy Ray Cyrus on it actually. And that's on iTunes also. That's a whole other story, but it the proceeds for that record, go to the Polycystic Kidney Disease Foundation, my ex husband and I had a son who died from polycystic kidney disease. So, at the time that all of that was going on, I wanted to do something kind of healing for myself. I felt like I had singers block like I just couldn't make sound after he died. And there was a good year where I was kind of, you know, not silent, but just couldn't sing. It made me want to cry every time I had to sing. It just brought up that that emotional stuff I guess singing in itself can be very emotional and anyway, so I decided to make a lullaby record and I, that's, that's another thing that I've done. That's there. That's my solo stuff.

Nick VinZant 31:08 Pretty much all the questions that I have, honestly, we kind of covered everything else. what's coming up next for you?

Sara Mann 31:16 Well, I'm gonna be doing some banana bread later. And

Nick VinZant 31:21 sounds really good actually. Can't go wrong with banana bread.

Sara Mann 31:25 I'm cooking some banana bread and dinner for my four children I'm singing on I'm doing some home record stuff. It's a lot of hard. It's a lot of work to that we've, you know, been so grateful to have but there's that's uh, you know, just that kind of stuff you know you're given a song and they go okay sing it you have to record yourself now. So now not only am I supposed to have my voice on this, I also have to engineer it. And you know, that takes input you know, kind of self produced the vocals and It takes it's a whole other skill that I've, luckily I learned how to do some of that a few years ago when I started doing voiceover work. But now we're like everybody's recording from home. So it's there's a real learning curve.

Nick VinZant 32:13 I want to thank Sara, so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included her information in the RSS feed that's on this podcast. I just think that her story is so fascinating. Because here you have someone that has just been a part of such huge musical and entertainment moments. And there's so much that happens behind the scenes that you just don't know about. And I think that she just has an interesting perspective on all of those things.

Paleontologist Ashley Hall

They've lain untouched for more than 70 million years. Now, Paleontologist Ashley Hall is putting some of the largest animals Earth has ever seen back together. We talk dinosaur discoveries, reassembling fossils and the most underrated dinosaurs. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Flavors of Ice Cream.

Interview with Paleontologist Ashley Hall

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Ashley Hall: Paleontologist

Episode Notes

• How did the dinosaurs die

• How long did dinosaurs live for

• How do paleontologists find fossils

• What do paleontologists learn from fossils

• What is the best dinosaur

• What is the most overrated dinosaur

• What is the lamest dinosaur

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, dinosaurs and terrible ice cream.

Ashley Hall 0:21 It is the most satisfying feeling piecing a turtle back together. It clicks in the most satisfying way if the bone is a good texture, it's a very cool feeling to put something back together that's not been together for 75 million years. There are so many cool and known dying like dinosaurs. We are just scratching the surface. Right? So, I mean, there's dinosaurs like Criollo for Saurus that lived in Antarctica. It says that volcanoes actually helped rewarm up the atmosphere after the asteroid hit the Earth and cause basic nuclear winter. So it was a very, very interesting kind of time on Earth.

Nick VinZant 1:06 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So does anyone not like dinosaurs? Has anyone ever looked at a dinosaur and just thought, Nope. Not interested in that thing? No. Our first guest is a paleontologist and she has this fascinating insight into not only what it takes to find these fossils, but to put them together. And also what we're now learning from them using the latest research techniques. This is paleontologist Ashley Hall. So did you just kind of never grow out of the dinosaur phase or how did you become a paleontologist?

Ashley Hall 1:51 You know, I was one of those kids at age four that just knew I you know, grew up loving dinosaurs. I don't remember When but my parents took me to the Field Museum in Chicago, Illinois, which is one of the best museums in the entire world. And my passion just was ignited as soon as I walked into the, because when you walk in, it's so grand and it has a specific smell. I am, it's very difficult to describe. But if you've ever been into a natural history museum, you probably know what I'm talking about. It kind of smells like marble and taxidermy, which I find really appealing for some reason.

Nick VinZant 2:31 What was it about it though? Was it just the size? Was it the fact that they're not here anymore? Like, what was it about dinosaurs that really sucked you in? Ashley Hall 2:40 It's a little bit of everything. I think as a kid, you're just awestruck that something that large can live or did live on the planet. And the fact that we can still find the remains is just awe striking. So dinosaurs really spark in our imaginations,

Nick VinZant 2:59 something that always jumps out of me is, you know, I have the impression in my mind that they live. All right. I know they live 65 million years ago, but they live for hundreds of millions of years. Like how long were dinosaurs around? That just blows my mind.

Ashley Hall 3:14 They're definitely one of the longest reigning groups of animals definitely, you know, fish have it over them. So fish have been around for for much longer about 400 million years or so. So it goes kind of fish reptiles, amphibians, dinosaurs are a specialized group of reptiles. So they have been around for Gosh, 100 and 80 million years. So from the Triassic 250 2 million years ago, to the Late Cretaceous, which is now 66 million years ago, which is when the asteroid hit and caused the demise of many non avian dinosaurs.

Nick VinZant 3:55 Is that still pretty much I mean, that was the thing that I remember learning as a kid and we're about this Is that still basically the rock solid idea of what happened to them?

Ashley Hall 4:05 You know, over the years, there have been lots of different hypotheses that have been kind of looked at to figure out well, was dinosaur diversity. Kind of waning? Were they on their way out anyways. But no matter what, what it comes down to is the asteroid. So, you know, this giant, massive, massive rock hit the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, and cause mass devastation. So that is still the reigning hypothesis of the mass dinosaur. We call it the kpg or Cretaceous paleogene extinction. The main hypothesis as to why the dinosaurs are no longer with us now. There have been papers recently so you can look at Alessandro Alessandro Kidron says paper. It says that volca Manos actually helped rewarm up the atmosphere after the asteroid hit the Earth and caused basically nuclear winter. So it was a very, very interesting kind of time on Earth. It's kind of reminds me of like the reset button where it's just, all right, we're starting over again, scratch on the slate clean.

Nick VinZant 5:20 So the asteroid hits and when it hits, but it's not like, hey, two weeks later, everybody's dead. Like, what kind of a timeframe are we talking about before they were gone?

Ashley Hall 5:29 No, the actual timeframe, so it wasn't like a split second and everything was gone. Obviously, because the asteroid hit in the Yucatan Peninsula, the other side of the globe wasn't directly impacted. Now, I feel so bad for the dinosaurs that were in the Yucatan because Can you imagine being a dinosaur in that area in Mexico, and not even getting a chance to like think twice?

Nick VinZant 5:56 It's like, what's that? Oh, Ashley Hall 5:58 Just I mean, you see these cartoons of dinosaurs looking up into the sky and kind of seeing a star or something. And you know, they're saying like, What's that? What's going on over there? But for those dinosaurs that were directly around that impact zone, it would have, like they wouldn't have done what hit them. It would have melted them before they had a chance.

Nick VinZant 6:20 Were they smart? Do we think that dinosaurs were smart? Ashley Hall 6:24 Absolutely. Well, depends on the dinosaur. So when you say a dinosaur, what do you think of for example,

Nick VinZant 6:30 I mean, I think of Jurassic Park dinosaurs, T Rex, Brachiosaurus? Triceratops top Stegosaurus. I mean, I think the big ones, the ones that capture everybody's attention.

Ashley Hall 6:43 Sure. Yeah. Um, so actually, we do know and can tell if dinosaurs were or were not smart. So by looking at dinosaur skulls, you can actually see where their brain was inside of their skull. And you can actually do CT scans in a hospital just like you would On your knee, and you can see the inside of their skull. Now that's a really cool thing because we can actually image the sections of their brain. So how big their optic lobes were, how big different regions of the brain were compared to other dinosaurs, right? So we know that T Rex, for example, had a really, really good sense of smell. Maybe couldn't do math very well, of course, you know. But when we when we say smart, you know, what does smart actually mean? When I think of smart I think of an animal being able to have cognition to be able to you know, reason, I think of corvids, I think of crows, ravens, magpies being really really smart animals. And we know that dinosaurs shared some of those same characteristics and actually to clear up everything right away. Birds are dinosaurs. So the corvids, ravens, magpies crows are the smartest group of birds.

Nick VinZant 8:07 I mean, I've always heard the old kind of saying is like, you can't, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb, climb a tree, you're gonna think, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna think it's stupid. Exactly. If we were to compare their intelligence to like an animal alive today. Yeah. What would you probably say like, oh, they're about like that.

Ashley Hall 8:27 So what's your favorite dinosaur? Maybe we can start there.

Nick VinZant 8:30 I'm a triceratops, man. Ashley Hall 8:32 Okay, so when you think a triceratops, Triceratops had not the biggest brain for its size. So when you think of something like an elephant, elephants have the massive brain right there a mammal, they're warm blooded. So they're not to be compared to a dinosaur really. But for all intents and purposes, let's compare like a triceratops to a rhino. Right? They're about the same size. So they weren't, you know, the smartest dinosaurs. But they definitely had the capability to protect themselves. They sawed off these amazing giant predators like T rex in their environment and they reproduced and they survived and we think they probably moved in herds not to quote Jurassic Park, but I'm gonna quote Jurassic Park. And so, you know, a lot of these group animals hung out together, they have social interactions, so they were just about as smart as I don't know, a lot of the animals we probably have around on the Great Plains today.

Nick VinZant 9:33 They're not stupid, basically right. To survive that long, you're obviously doing something right Ashley Hall 9:39 talk about, you know, sort of the idea of dinosaurs being stupid. That does come from a kind of the 1800s kind of antiquated thought of like, you know, Stegosaurus for example. Stegosaurus is a great example because Stegosaurus has a brain the size of two walnuts. So if you imagine Holding your hand out and having two wallets in your hand that's the size of Stegosaurus his brain which was a multi ton animal. And that is the animal that people saw had two brains for a while and if you remember that

Nick VinZant 10:14 Yeah, I do kind of remember that like one was in the tail or something.

Ashley Hall 10:18 Yeah ones in the butt and ones in the front so that they can kind of operate the whole animal but yeah, that's been actually disproven so they just said one brain

Nick VinZant 10:28 so Stegosaurus was kind of a big dummy then.

Ashley Hall 10:32 Yeah, I mean, when you're when you're an animal that's got plates and spikes and everything on the outside of you. I mean, you know, that's pretty much a protection you need workers you know, the smarter dinosaurs and we think of quote unquote smart being predatory dinosaurs, right. If you're a predatory dinosaur, you don't have to just leisurely eat your food right? Plants are everywhere. So herbivores have the pick of our And they kind of Can, can graze and have plans with their leader but you know when you're a carnivore that really takes a cutting skill, the predators like T rex the drama soars, which are rafters. And a lot of the, like Allah soars the predatory dinosaurs were definitely the smarter quote unquote dinosaurs if you want to talk about smart in that sort of respect.

Nick VinZant 11:24 So when I imagine paleontologist like yourself going and studying animals, like I'm just imagining you out digging in a field somewhere, like how do you actually do this?

Ashley Hall 11:34 So I was actually in my career I've been more of a lab paleontologists and as of more recent years, I've been specializing in the educational aspect. So when I started my career in paleontology, which I graduated from IU Bloomington with a degree in anthropology, and then it got a job working at excuse me, the remenham Museum of paleontology in Claremont, California, which by the way, you ever get to declare California. The rails museum is situated on a high school campus. So it's a public museum that is on a high school campus. It's a boarding school. So there's actually kids that are high schoolers that get to go to a school with a museum. So I spent five years at the rails museum as assistant curator, which means that when everybody goes out to the field and they bring everything back, so we bring the fossils back and plaster jackets and plastic bags. I would go through and sort out all the little pieces, make sure everything had labels, and make sure the, you know, the specimens stay with what they were brought back with, right. So if you have, you know, five bags together, make sure those bags stay together because they might go to one animal. So a lot of paleontology when you think of paleontology is done in the field, digging up Jurassic Park, right? But there are so many different aspects of paleontology and mine was focused on the creational aspect, right. So what happens to dinosaurs after they get back to the lab?

Nick VinZant 13:13 How doyou guys then figure out, like, learn about them just from looking at their bones? Right? Yeah,

Ashley Hall 13:20 so that's like the biggest coolest thing about paleontology is a giant puzzle. And mind you, I was not a fan of puzzles as a kid. So I just I'm actually a perfectionist. So when I'm looking at a bag of broken fragments, all I can think about is just putting it back together. So for example, turtles make the best puzzles. So in the Cretaceous period 66 million years ago, and actually about 75 million years ago, where our field site was in Utah grand staircase Escalante national monument and it is the most satisfying feeling pieces Turtle back together, or any bone for that matter, because it just it clicks in the most satisfying way. If the bone is a good texture, it is extremely cool. It's a very cool feeling to put something back together that's not been together for 75 million years.

Nick VinZant 14:19 I would imagine. That's crazy, right? Is it? Do you get used to the idea that you're holding something in your hand? That is that old?

Ashley Hall 14:26 Yeah. And that's, that's part of the intrigue, right? So, you know, my whole, my whole career, whether I'm in a museum or out in the field or whatever, if I pick something up, you might be the first person to touch that fossil, right? If you're in the field. If you're in a museum collection, that might also be the case because a lot of these specimens are brought back in bulk. A lot of them are brought back and plaster jackets and we don't get to excavating them for maybe 510 15 2030 years even right, so, when you're uncovering something in the lab, you're maybe seeing it for the first time, ever, that any human has ever seen

Nick VinZant 15:12 Mammals changed alongside them though right?

Ashley Hall 15:16 Oh, yeah.Yeah, mammals evolved right alongside dinosaurs. So, I mean, it's kind of funny because you think of dinosaurs. And, you know, they're so big. And then mammals were just the little things, you know, that didn't get bigger than a raccoon, and they were kind of scurrying around the feet of dinosaurs because they were, they were living at the same time and dinosaurs definitely had the edge. So mammals went from these very small creatures that were, you know, pretty, pretty poor vision. They lived mainly at night, but our vision is not as good as birds not as good as reptiles. fish have amazing vision or visions. Okay. And so when mammals were running around under the feet of dinosaurs, you know, they didn't really get their chance to shine until well after. So, I mean, you just have some pretty cool adaptations evolving. They were seed eaters, they were carnivores. You kind of have those niches still so, you know, imagine like squirrel like animals, a possum like animals, otter like animals, but it wasn't until dinosaurs went extinct 66 million years ago that mammals just took off. And then after that, you know, not even 10 million years later, you get and I say only 10 million years in the grand scheme of time. But you know, you get these amazing you know, whales evolving my goodness when the marine reptiles died out the big Moses or is like we see in Jurassic World that jumps up in the shark. You know, Moses soars, died out, leave. A room essentially for mammals to fill that. So we see the same sort of pattern right? So after dinosaurs died out mammals kind of took those niches over and thrive.

Nick VinZant 17:13 So then who's gonna who's gonna take over for us then?

Ashley Hall 17:16 Oh, man, you know, I am really voting for cephalopods like the octopus to take over

Nick VinZant 17:26 their time, their time might be coming up fast

Ashley Hall 17:31 Do you remember this meme going around the tree octopus,

Nick VinZant 17:35 it was like a fake thing.

Ashley Hall 17:38 It was. It was kind of like a, I don't know, like a fake internet thing back in the day, but I think it was in the Pacific Northwest, but I feel like if cephalopods I mean, they can change color. They can. Oh, gosh, be all different sizes. They're just restricted to water. So I feel like if we could get them up on land, they might.They might take over

Nick VinZant 18:00 Are youready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Ashley Hall 18:03 Absolutely.

Nick VinZant 18:04 We got some good ones better fictional paleontologist Ross in friends, or Alan grant in Jurassic Park.

Ashley Hall 18:12 Oh Alan grant hands down. Absolutely. So Elon grand Rosa Park, which by the way Jurassic Park Favorite movie of all time, I saw it when I was nine years old in a theater and literally walked out of the theater that day and was like, seeing the world differently. It was insane.

Nick VinZant 18:31 As a paleontologist though, what about that movie? Like makes your eye twitch?

Ashley Hall 18:35 Oh my gosh, like, in a bad way?

Nick VinZant 18:37 Yeah, like, they got that wrong. Um,

Ashley Hall 18:41 it's actually the latter movies. So Jurassic World makes me crazy. Jurassic Park had amazing, just groundbreaking science that hadn't been done before. And animals that had never been shown that way on the big screen or pretty much ever And jurassic world has had every opportunity to grow on that and to actually incorporate real science but they actually went the opposite direction and what the genetically mutated monster movie way. So they took our beautiful, lovely dinosaurs that were sort of like a frog hybrid, right and just sort of, you know, while they're made in the lab, it's maybe not like how dinosaurs really were and maybe they can change their sex. But then they just took that and ran with it and made these mutants so it's no longer you I can't I can't even like I'm stuttering. I can't even talk about Jurassic World because there's nothing it's so hard for us as paleontologist to watch that movie.

Nick VinZant 19:47 What is the most overrated dinosaur?

Ashley Hall 19:51 T Rex. And the reason I say most overrated is because it's everywhere, right? You like Google Search dinosaur and tiara Pretty much comes up not to say it's not the most interesting dinosaur because it is fascinating and is amazing. And I love it so much. But it is definitely overrated. There's so many more cool carnivores.

Nick VinZant 20:11 What do you think is the most interesting dinosaur?

Ashley Hall 20:17 Oh my gosh, there are so many cool and known dying like dinosaurs we are just scratching the surface of right. So, I mean, there's dinosaurs like Criollo for Saurus that lived in Antarctica, right? So they lived at the very bottom of the world, and we barely know anything about them. They're super, super cool. They had a crest on their head that kind of made them look like

Nick VinZant 20:41 Oh, I know which ones you're talking about.

Ashley Hall 20:43 Yeah.

Nick VinZant 20:46 Yeah, that's the problem though. That crust made him look kind of kind of goofy. And then I think people lost interest. Yeah, this kind of leads me into this one question we got sent. Let me make sure I get this right because it's actually like too intelligent for me to screw up on a percentage basis? How many dinosaur species Do you believe have been discovered, relative to the total number of dinosaur species that have existed?

Ashley Hall 21:13 This is a great question. Thank you to whoever answered that. Okay, so let's put it in perspective. So on earth today, there are 10,000 plus species of birds, dinosaurs that we have right now, I think, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's in the thousand range. Maybe we have 1000 describe species. And by the way, I can't keep up with dinosaur paleontology. my inbox every day gets filled with new papers and there's new groundbreaking stuff that happens just about every week. So we're in a really awesome time for paleontology. So, you know, if you're interested in paleontology, definitely read up and you know, subscribe to these different channels and outlets for For paleontology news, because there's like something new every day. It's crazy. So I think the percentage is very low. Right? I think everyone would agree with me on this. Because when you look at the different numbers of species that we have, right lizards, snakes, birds, mammals on earth currently, and we're only looking at a fraction of time, you know, dinosaurs were around like, once again, 100 and 80 million years, and we only have 1000 some species that we've ever found. So I think it's drastically drastically. I mean, maybe we've discovered I'm so bad at percentages

Nick VinZant 22:39 it sounds like five, like five to 10 almost, is what it sounds like.

Ashley Hall 22:45 It's very, very, very low. And it depends on if you are a splitter or a lumper because I'm really indology you can say okay, these animals even though they look pretty different are probably one species, or you can say they look so different. They're probably different species.

Nick VinZant 23:05 Oh, I see.

Ashley Hall 23:07 So you can say, well, this one may be a female, and this one might be a male. Or you can say, well, this one's obviously different species, you know. So it's very, very difficult because these are not a living, breathing animals that we can go study. So you have to look at geology. So you have to look at the rock layer in which they were found, because if they were found in the same rock layer, they could be, I mean, the same species, it could be male and female. It's really difficult to tell but if you found let's say, a triceratops because you said that was your favorite tracer tops down. Oh gosh, in one layer of the hell Creek formation in Montana where they're found, and then you find a similar looking Sara tops in which looks like tracer tops. But it's millions of years later. Can you still call it Triceratops? Or is it Triceratops and a different species name? Right? So it could be that you have Triceratops horridus in one layer, and Triceratops persists and another layer and maybe one evolved into the other one. So it's crazy, right? So this is like, part of the fascinating, like tangle of web that is paleontology. You kind of have to pick apart and really analyze dinosaurs in order to not overblow you're like, you know, we have 2 million species of dinosaurs.

Nick VinZant 24:37 Are there any places on earth where paleontologists would like to dig, but cannot because of you can't get to the environment. The government doesn't allow it conflicts. Is there like a place that oh, we could only get there?

Ashley Hall 24:51 Oh, oh, luckily the government does allow paleontology so we are lucky enough to be able to dig on Bureau. Land Management lands so any national like grand, grand staircase Escalante National Park is an amazing place Bears Ears. We've got all these different places in the south west and sort of the Central Plains areas that have these amazing fossils that we do have access to because of the government. But the fossils that are hardest to reach are actually because they are out in the middle of nowhere. So, the area where we're I've worked which is grand staircase Escalante national monument is the most rugged place. I think you could find fossils in the United States. I say that because when when you go out to excavate there you have to camp about six miles from the dig site. Oh, wow. Yeah, my first time out. You know, it's my very first excavation and I was so excited. And we get to the campground and it's beautiful. And there's rocks everywhere. And, you know, just the most gorgeous landscape. You know, huge, huge rocks and canyons, and it's like, all right, well, the morning got to get up super early because the dig sites like, you know, three, four miles This way, you know, it's like six miles round trip. So, you know, the reason for that is because you can't, you know, when you think of something like a canyon, you can't get a vehicle down into the canyon. And in the return aspect, you can't get heavy dinosaur fossils back out unless you helicopter them out. So paleontologists have to find very creative ways to get, you know, these really amazing beautiful fossils back to the repository.

Nick VinZant 27:00 Lamest dinosaur

Ashley Hall 27:02 Oh, everyone's gonna hate me. So the lamest dinosaur I think, is camp to Saurus and camp disorders. So there are these there is a group of dinosaurs called ornithischians. And they are sort of the plant eating dinosaurs that you walk into a museum and you kind of walk past them because they don't have any crazy like, you know, head ornamentation or sharp claws or sharp teeth or anything. They're just kind of like the goats of the Cretaceous, so I'm not like a huge fan of camp to Saurus I know a lot of people love them, and I'm sorry, but, but there is a best dinosaur. Do you know the best?

Nick VinZant 27:46 Who's the who's the best? Who's like the biggest badass?

Ashley Hall 27:50 The best dinosaur is parasaurolophus. Do you know which one this is?

Nick VinZant 27:55 No,

Ashley Hall 27:56 Okay. So imagine so this was actually in Jurassic Park. So parasaurolophus is the big duck billed dinosaur with the crest. Oh, crap. I know what you're eating back. Yeah, on its head. So parasaurolophus has been my favorite dinosaur since I was little. And I don't know why small things you like as a kid, you're like, yeah, this is my thing. And then I grew up and started working at the rail museum. And guess what? On my first dig, I got to go dig up a baby parasaurolophus

Nick VinZant 28:34 like, that's still like a size of a human being though, isn't it?

Ashley Hall 28:37 Yes. Yeah, it's it's exactly the size of a human being. It's actually the size of like a really big dog. So, you know, it came full circle for me. And it's what's really cool about learning about dinosaurs is that when they're babies, they look different than when they were adults. So you get these little baby parasaurolophus imagine like a baby Rhino. You know how they're born was like a little tiny note Instead of a big horn,

Nick VinZant 29:01 yeah,

Ashley Hall 29:02 yeah. So baby parasaurolophus hashed out of an egg with a little teeny tiny bump on his head. And then as they get older, they grow these huge huge tubes on their head, which are basically nasal cavities. So imagine having your nose or AB super super long and up through your skull. They actually pushed air through that so they took in air and pushed it through their head. It was basically a big resonating chamber and made sounds for communication with one another. Oh, so it was like communicating by tuba.

Nick VinZant 29:39 They do they look like they look like a tuba kangaroo basically.

Ashley Hall 29:44 Yeah, they really do.

Nick VinZant 29:48 They do look like a cross between a tuba and a kangaroo.

Ashley Hall 29:51 Yes. I'm never gonna think of it in a different way

Nick VinZant 29:54 If you discover a new species. I need you can you tuba kangaroo.

Ashley Hall 30:02 I love it. Speaking of new species, like I said, there's all sorts of new things being discovered all the time. But did you know that you can name a new dinosaur off of anything?

Nick VinZant 30:14 No.

Ashley Hall 30:15 Yeah, so if you are a paleontologist, you can name a dinosaur off of a Star Wars character. If you like Star Wars. There was a lizard that was named Obama Don after President Obama.

Nick VinZant 30:32 Obamadon

Ashley Hall 30:35 There are dinosaurs that are named after the land they were found on the person that found it you just can't name it after yourself because It's seen as kind of tacky.

Nick VinZant 30:43 So the co host of this podcast does not believe in dinosaurs because enough fossils haven't been found. That is my reaction as well. Can you can you please educate this man

Ashley Hall 30:58 I didn't mean to laugh to like I know but it's we have so many Oh my gosh. So I spent I spent five years at the elf museum cataloging fossils and i think i catalogued like 10,000 fossils. And that's just in my time at one museum dinosaur paleontology started in the 1800s. With cope and Marsh These are two very distinguished paleontologist back in the day professors and they actually tried to outcompete one another because when they were first starting out in paleontology, and if you can imagine, there were just there are fossils everywhere in the American West because no one had collected them before. And so you have whole skeletons laying on the surface, Triceratops T rex duck billed dinosaurs edmontosaurus. And so they were actually able to get the best of the collection right right off the bat, and I wish I could have seen what it We'd like for them because it I mean, you can go into areas today where that happens. But, you know, like in dinosaur Provincial Park up in Alberta, Canada, which is an amazing place to go, by the way, if you ever want to see fossils, they're just fossils laying everywhere. And it is one of the coolest things to look around and just see them laying around you like they did in the 1800s. So, you know, we've we've started doing paleontology, the 1800s. It's only about 200 years old. And the technologies we have now to learn about them are absolutely incredible. Like, for example, we have CT scanning, which is, you know, one of the coolest things to see inside of a dinosaur bone, but did you know that we actually now can get proteins and collagen out of dinosaur bones?

Nick VinZant 32:53 Like 65 million years later, we can pull it out of there?

Ashley Hall 32:56 Absolutely. Yep. So at the Museum of the Rockies, Here, so I live in Bozeman, Montana. There are there's a very, very cool cutting edge lab here. museum of the Rockies is known for kind of pioneering this. So it's called histology. And it's done by the medical professionals today, basically, where you take a thin section of something and look at it under a microscope. So Excuse me, what you can do today is if you take a dinosaur fossil, let's say, a limb bone of a T Rex. And if you make a very, very thin section, imagine slicing through a log, right? So taking a very, very paper thin section, and then we grind it down. And if you look at it under a microscope, you can actually see how old the animal was when I died. So we can count growth rings inside of the bone that does that are basically lines of growth so they're seasonal. So dinosaurs have seasons just like We had seasons today. And they had periods where they were growing more than other times. So we can actually look and see, oh, this dinosaur was five years old, or this dinosaur was 10 years old, or this one was just hatched, right? But then the even cooler aspect is you can actually, like mind blowing stuff. There are chemical analyses that we can do now today, to extract protein in certain dinosaur fossils. This is so cool. And I'm happy to provide links for listeners if you want to read more about this. So I know everyone's thinking Jurassic Park, right? So Oh, can we you know, recreate dinosaurs. And, you know, DNA actually doesn't preserve for more than about 500 to 700,000 years, and dinosaurs lived 66 million years. But what we're seeing are proteins that are still left over in some of these fossils that are that old. So we're starting to get better idea about preservation. And hopefully this can give insight into more about their biology. So, you know, the biggest thing I want people to know about dinosaur bones is that they're not rocks. That's kind of a thing that we're taught as kids is like, oh, bones or, you know, rocks or whatever, you know, it's just like a rock in the shape of about No, they're actually bones. You know, bones, your skeleton, my skeleton are made of minerals. And they're produced by our body. And so sometimes we can get chemical signatures from those things that are just

Nick VinZant 35:38 incredible. That's pretty much pretty much all I got is anything what's next coming up for you? How can people get a hold of you?

Ashley Hall 35:45 Yeah. So I have a brand new book out called fossils for kids, which is I think how you found me in the first place, right?

Nick VinZant 35:51 Oh, my son loves dinosaurs.

Ashley Hall 35:54 Oh, good. Yeah. So how old is he?

Nick VinZant 35:57 Four

Ashley Hall 35:58 Oh, awesome. So My book is for ages five to nine, or as I say, five to 99. And it's called fossils for kids, a junior scientists guide to dinosaur bones, ancient animals and prehistoric life on earth. And you can find it pretty much every big retailer online. Amazon target Barnes and Noble and it is the most comprehensive guide for kids who love fossils and really want to dig in and you know, take a big bite out of the science. So you can find me on Twitter at lady naturalist you can find me on Instagram at lady underscore naturalist and yeah, pretty much all social media.

Nick VinZant 36:39 I want to thank Ashley so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have a link to her on our social media accounts where Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and we have also included Ashley's information and the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Microbiologist Dr. Susanna L. Harris

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Interview with Microbiologist Susanna L. Harris

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Susanna L. Harris: Microbiologist

Show notes

• Microbiologist explains microbiology

• What is the microbiome

• Microbiologist on if probiotics actually work

• What bacteria do for our immune system

• What is the most dangerous virus

• What is the most dangerous fungi

• What is the most dangerous bacteria

• What are bacteria modified organisms

• Bacteria modified plants

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're talking about microbiology, and the top five things we just don't understand why other people like

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 0:27 bacteria control our entire lives like they control my life, of course, but they control just the world and that's why they're the coolest things ever. We've known for a while certain bacteria, certain viruses make people sick, certain fungi, fungi make people sick. But we're really understanding now that it's the entire microbiome. So the entire group of bacteria and microbes living in a certain spot that cannot control the health of their host. Most of the probiotic supplements that people are taking are absolute garbage. Very happy To put that out there at the most, they might have 10 different strains of bacteria and your gut, you have thousands of different types of bacteria. I really think that our definition of microbiology and possibly our definition of life is going to change in the next couple of hundred years, especially as we start exploring other planets.

Nick VinZant 1:21 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I have always been fascinated by the unseen world. The things that we don't see and maybe don't even know about that just have this huge impact on everything that we do. microbiology is a great example of that. And our first guest is an expert in microbiology and she has this fascinating insight into what exactly is in the microbial world and what that means from everything. For our Health, to the food that we grow and more. I want to caution you though, if you don't know anything about microbiology, like I don't know anything about microbiology, this conversation can be a little bit like a beautiful hiking trail that starts in a swamp before it gets to this amazing mountain. And I mean that in the sense that there's some concepts that we talked about at the beginning. That can be a little bit hard to get through. But once you once you have a grasp on these concepts, the impact of them is just unbelievable, because there is so much there. This is microbiologist Dr. Susanna Harris. What is microbiology

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 2:46 you can break it down into micro and biology, right. So it's the study of tiny life, generally the idea of tiny life meaning that you can't see the individual components without a microscope.

Nick VinZant 2:59 So When I think of it, I kind of think of Alright, there's viruses and there's bacteria. Are those the two main things? Or is there a lot more than that?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 3:07 It's kind of an interesting question. And same with everything in biology, right? There's not really a clear line anywhere, but we've got viruses and bacteria. There's also an entire kingdom called archy. Which for a while, people lumped in with bacteria, but they're so different. They're basically aliens compared to bacteria, but they're about the same size. And also included in microbiology are single celled eukaryotic organisms. So you can think about the little tardigrades little water bears, which I think are adorable or there's like different kinds of fungi have very small individual cellular life versions. So microbiology is cool because it does overlap into all of these different spaces and even so my degree is Microbiology and Immunology. So a lot of microbiologist also So study individual cells and different components of human bodies that you couldn't otherwise study.

Nick VinZant 4:07 So when we talk about these, these these micro organisms, Are they alive? Like we're alive? They think they have a goal so to speak, or are they alive like machines? And they're just trying to accomplish what their genetics tell them to do?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 4:23 Oh,wow, I am loving this because now I'm having an existential crisis over here. So I guess it kind of goes back to the question of how much decision making do we even have? Are we just going off of our genetic programming and what does that mean? Are we programmed to think the way we do? The question of life in microbiology is pretty contentious. So going back to those two things you brought up originally the viruses versus bacteria, bacteria we know are alive some of the requirements of being alive are maintaining some homeostasis, being able to replicate themselves. Being able to have a metabolism. So they take in energy and they use it. And viruses are kind of interesting because they can't do a lot of those things without having a host cell. So they can't replicate on their own. They can't make or use their own energy. And so it's a question of do they exist as life forms? Are they just hijacking cells? Then there's questions of there's actually bacteria that hijack other cells. But in short, most of these bacteria are functioning on kind of just external stimulus. So whatever they're experiencing on the outside, they are programmed to have specific responses to and so we don't really think about them having a motive a lot of times we kind of give them these these ideas of Oh, the virus is trying to wipe out the population or the bacteria is trying to get in. It's it's really more of a fact that Bacteria the virus is only going to survive if it does certain behaviors in certain contexts. And so I don't know though I don't know how you can break that apart from let's say, a goldfish or your pet dog or even people

Nick VinZant 6:15 that makes sense butt, you know, like, dogs will run and play together, so to speak, but bacteria aren't necessarily they're not doing things like that, right? They're just kind of being bacteria. Does that make sense?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 6:29 It totally makes sense. It's absolutely what what most people think of, and actually, this is what got me really, really, really interested in microbiology past the point of just wanting to go to college and study it. So in in, in high school, I took an AP bio class and we spent a couple days learning about bacteria and viruses and specifically bacteria phages, which are viruses that infect bacteria, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And I found out you know, hey, I want did go to college anyway, I knew I wanted to study science. Let's go get a peach or let's go get a BS in microbiology. And while I was there, I got an offer to work in a research lab that was studying this bacterium called myxococcus xanthus. cysts and mixshow is something that lives in the soil, it doesn't hurt people, it doesn't really help people that much. You know, it's not gonna be the cure for diseases and it's also not going to make people sick. But it was really fascinating to learn about because Mexico is known for having these extremely complex multicellular behaviors. So each individual bacterium can survive on its own. But when they get together in clumps, what will actually happen is that they will divvy up tasks. So it's sort of like they create their own little city where some of the different cells are doing things like catching nutrients and digesting them and other of the cells are creating little spaces that are extremely protected in case some sort of maybe Amoeba. By and tries to eat them or gets really dried out. And so in this case, the cells are signaling to each other kind of similarly to how dogs would when they're playing of, Okay, we're going to go this way, or we're going to share this behavior. And that's, I think what's really cool is that it does cross over into that point of, are these actually individual bacteria that we should study all by themselves, you know, one by one? Or do we need to understand how these could exist as a group or even eventually how they could exist as groups of groups all together?

Nick VinZant 8:32 I guess the better way for me to, to phrase that would be Do they have intelligence?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 8:40 Um, I don't think I mean, they're there. They don't have. We don't think of them as being able to understand the future or necessarily making decisions based on what they anticipate will happen. It's much more based on the the behaviors that they exhibit the things that they do are Kind of pre programmed based on in the past one of their ancestors face the same choice. And the ancestor who made, you know, the specific decision that allowed them to live, ended up making a bunch more bacteria. And so that pre programmed choice is kind of hardwired in as part of what is going to allow them to make a decision. So I guess, I don't know. It's one of those questions. I think you could ask any microbiologists and we'll do this sort of horrible back and forth thing where they're not they're not sitting around having a convention saying like, let's make somebody sick. But they do actually communicate with each other so that they can make someone sick.

Nick VinZant 9:40 You mentioned that the rk what's what's so unique about them that you think of them as like aliens?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 9:47 Yeah, so this kind of gets into the differences of what we can see under microscope and kind of how we're looking at it and saying, Oh, these are basically the same size shape, they're probably the same. It would Be sort of the same as if we looked at lizards and cats, right? Where on the surface we look at them and say, okay, they're, you know, about 15 to 20 pounds for a really large iguana. They have four feet, they have a tail. So this is the same exact thing, right? But if you if you showed someone a lizard and a cat, they would say No, those are definitely very different. That sort of the same thing with Rk. And bacteria, where they're often similar sizes. They're really tiny. rk are interesting, because a lot of them can live in Super extreme environments. So these are the things when we talk about can we find life at the bottom of the ocean or encapsulated in the coldest places in the world or in those deep sea events or near volcanoes, it's oftentimes archy that are known as extremophiles, meaning that they love extreme conditions. But they're so different in terms of their DNA. Yeah. It basically, it, it looks like that if you started off in in one place, like let's say you were making, making a meal and you had a handful of ingredients. If you mix them together one way it's going to turn out into a soup. If you mix them into another way, it's going to end up being a pie. They're so different. That would be like having completely different starting materials, but still ending up with a soup, if that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 11:32 Is that kind of where life started? Is that what they're thinking?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 11:37 So it's a good question. Basically, they're thinking that the branching point between these groups was really, really really long ago. So if we look at them, we might say, okay, they have similar behaviors are the same size. So they're probably pretty similar but we can trace back there lineage and say, Wow, these were not connected with each other. Almost all the way back to When we can try to figure out what that origination point was. So when we're looking at when did you carios split off from bacteria. So one of these, we call them eukaryotes, because they're called True cells. They have membranes and they have organelles. If you've ever heard mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell. That's what they're talking about that these little organelles exist in these eukaryotic cells. When they split off from bacteria, it was around that time, and maybe even further back that rk split off in their own direction. So it's sort of these different families of when, when they started being distinct when they started moving away from each other. And instead of them being kind of like siblings, they get closer to being cousins, and then Far, far family members. And it's, it's so interesting. I think it's a really great example of how science is constantly changing and our definitions are changing is that a lot of people that I know Who are around my age? I'm 28 right now are right on that cusp of being taught that archy and bacteria are basically the same thing. And you know, this tree of life is constantly being redrawn. refigured because we're getting this new knowledge and we're saying, okay, we're not classifying by how they behave anymore. We're looking at their DNA and understanding where all these things changed.

Nick VinZant 13:24 So when you look at bacteria, like how much do we really know about them on a scale of like, one to 10 one we know absolutely nothing. 10 we got this whole thing figured out. Where do you think that we are now?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 13:37 Huh? That's, that's a great question. I I guess it's it's one of those things that I just wow, this was tricky. Well, let's, I guess we could put it this way is that 100 years ago, we didn't really know what viruses were for. Like understanding what viruses are versus bacteria, that's been a relatively new thing to realize that those are so distinct. And then it was actually less than 100 years ago, that we found out that DNA was the the molecule that contained all the genetic materials, and it wasn't any other part of the cells. So knowing that DNA is really important is only, you know, 80 years old, I think, at this point. So I guess in terms of that, it's, I think, we know increasingly more about certain things. I I really think that our definition of microbiology and possibly our definition of life is going to change in the next couple of hundred years, especially as we start exploring other planets. We definitely understand a lot more about the microbes that affect human health more than before and a big change is actually going back to that idea of community. interactions where we've known for a while certain bacteria, certain viruses make people sick, certain fungi, fungi make people sick. But we're really understanding now that it's the entire micro biome. So the entire group of bacteria and microbes living in a certain spot that cannot control the health of their host. So it's not just the case of, I end up getting some sort of bacteria while I'm on a trip and it upsets my stomach. And then I take antibiotics and I clear that out. And we're all done. Understanding that there's also a ton of really healthy bacteria that are helping me to be more healthy. And that disturbing that balance could actually be really damaging. For those pieces. We know that it's important, but we really, really don't understand a lot. You're talking

Nick VinZant 15:51 What do you think of probiotics. Does that work or is it a waste

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 16:10 So there's two pieces. One is that like we definitely were covered in healthy bacteria, we need our bacteria. The last thing we want to get rid of all of our healthy flora, so the little living creatures in us. Most of the probiotic supplements that people are taking are absolute garbage. Very happy to, to put that out there because it's sort of similar to the vitamins situation where if you're not getting enough certain vitamins, you definitely need to supplement those. But most people who are eating fruits and vegetables and some proteins are probably getting all the vitamins they need. And so those extras are at the very least just getting washed out of your body. What we know there's about probiotics for human health. We know that you need these good bacteria We know that certain foods might allow your stomach and your gut. A lot of these bacteria live in your intestines allow that balance to be maintained better. But if you look at probiotics, at the most, they might have 10 different strains of bacteria in your gut, you have thousands of different types of bacteria. And so it'd be a bit like having a forest fire and saying, well, we need to repopulate this forest let's throw in a ton of squirrels. So you'll have a population. But that doesn't mean it's a healthy environment. And so you're a lot better off eating these fermented foods and eating like fiber rich food, organic types of vegetables and things and those are actually called prebiotics. So the conditions the nutrients that you add, that allow healthy bacteria to live are called prebiotics. The bacteria themselves are probiotics. I personally would never spend money on probiotics. There's a really cool study showing that if you take antibiotics, which are going to kill all your bacteria, right? If you take antibiotics, and then you take a probiotic, it takes your body longer to get back to its normal state than if you had just taken the antibiotics themselves. And you kind of change that bacterial environment within your body, or is it basically always going to be the same? Oh, yeah, our microbiome changes constantly. And it seems like little changes can affect it pretty drastically. So if you're eating a bunch of sugar or a bunch of fat, or let's say you're eating a ton of carrots, maybe you take a certain type of medication, all of these different things are going to shift your microbiome. Even things like we know that babies who are breastfed versus formula fed have very different microbiomes including on their skin. The thing is, though, is that we don't know which of these changes really matter. We Know that a lot of changes can happen. We know that taking an antibiotic for an infection can change your microbiome all over your body. But we don't know which individual pieces are the most important. And so it's really hard to evaluate which changes you can make in your lifestyle or your diet that will be overall good for you.

Nick VinZant 19:22 So but is it a symbiotic relationship that we have with them? Or does one of us kind of get the better of the other?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 19:27 Yeah, so symbiotic relationships are really interesting because there's definitely a symbiosis where both are benefiting in their own way. The question I guess, is it is whether it's a mutualism re are both of them benefiting equally or is Yeah, is one winning. I think I mean, humans need a healthy microbiota. We know that. We know that if you don't have enough exposure to different microbes and different types of You know other whether it's bacteria or fungi, if you don't have exposure to those things, your immune system doesn't really know how to handle stuff in the future. So introducing, basically like letting your kids play in some dirt, making sure they have the ability to come into contact with different types of proteins, bacteria, all these different pieces. That's really important to train your immune system. And so we know in like, for instance, rat studies, if the rats don't have native microbiome, then they have a lot harder time dealing with future infections. So there's some component of this that humans have always evolved with microbes. We've never existed at a point where there haven't been microbes all over us. And so some of our natural processes depend on the microbes. We can't take up the nutrients that we need. We might have even changes in our biochem History, there's been an association with moods based on the microbiome. So I guess it's sort of a question of where do humans end and our microbiome begins? Or should we just consider our microbiome actually part of who we are. I feel like whenever any scientist really starts to study stuff, things just get really confusing. Yeah, that's basic. Basically, the art of science is just getting more and more unable to define things that that seems so simple, right? You know, like, What is life? Like? Ah, that's really complicated question, actually.

Nick VinZant 21:39 So what what kind of research are you working on right now?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 21:42 Right, so I just finished up my thesis work. So I've finished up the PhD in microbiology at UNC Chapel Hill, and my thesis work. I'm glad you brought up probiotics was actually looking at probiotics for plants. So a lot of companies and this is becoming a an even bigger field of study, a lot of companies are looking at whether they can improve plant growth. Instead of adding fertilizers or different kinds of chemicals, they want to know if they can add bacteria and improve how much the plants are growing or if they're able to survive certain environments. For instance, I mean, the the most studied mutualism between bacteria and plants is like with soybean plants and the rhizobium. These bacteria will come in and form little nodules on the plant roots, it's sort of if you're going to learn about it in a class, that's what you learn about is the soybean plants where you pull them up and the roots have little bumps on them. And that has something to do with helping the plants these bacteria are actually fixing the nitrogen so they're making the nitrogen in the soil available to the plants and the plant can eat them and then you don't have to add fertilizer into the soil. So that's one really good example of a clear symbiosis between plants and bacteria. What we know though The other plants in the soil, very interactions with soil bacteria can help them grow during times of drought, they can actually help them prevent infections from other diseases. And companies are asking how can we take those bacteria that exists in the soil? Can we put them onto plants and solve some of these problems? And it's a really big topic right now, because we there's been a lot of pushback to people using GMO plants or genetically modified organisms. There's been pushback about using chemicals and antibiotics and fertilizers. And so the idea is maybe using these bacteria, we can move away from using such environmentally expensive treatments. But can there be pushed back you know,

Nick VinZant 23:45 you mentioned GMO genetically modified organisms, is that right? That's the Oh yeah, I got that. Right. Um, but is there going to be pushback like Oh, they got with a GMO and now they've got VMO bacteria, modified organisms, as gonna be the same thing like, Is there gonna be a same reaction to this?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 24:03 You know, I think the idea is probably not. Because a lot of these bacteria that are being added most of them have not been modified themselves, which means that they were originally taken from the soil we took and we made sure that we only had one type of bacteria in our sample. And so we know what it is. But we know that it was originally from the dirt, it's natural people are very comfortable with the idea of this is something that already existed that could already have been with my lettuce anyway. So yeah, let's put it back on lettuce. That's really one of the big ideas is that it's maybe a little bit less Frankenstein. I personally try to eat as organic as possible because pesticides and herbicides fungicides can all stay on the plant for longer but I am very pro GMO. I have a sticker of that on my laptop because All of the genes that we put into plants are genes that are found elsewhere. And there's a lot of scrutiny on them. And I think that actually, it's a concern of mine that this push away from using GMO and thinking about can we use these kind of in parentheses, natural things, whether that's going to be, you know, whether that's going to be driven by science or driven by kind of public opinion that my project basically looked at these probe these plant probiotics, and said, Yeah, they can have a benefit, especially in a lab space. But is this benefit enough in the crop system? Or are we just selling farmers something that we think sounds good that they will be likely to buy that their consumers will buy because it's not GMO? Or is this something that's actually going to be helping them

Nick VinZant 25:53 you talked about immunity in immunology so what role do bacteria play in our immune systems,

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 26:03 bacteria control our entire lives, like they control my life, of course, but they control just the world. And that's why they're the coolest things ever. So I'm kind of I'm more, I'm more experienced with the plant side of some of this stuff, but like, bacteria change the plant's immune system, they actually, they can shape if a plant has no bacteria on it. And it encounters a new bacterium, what will happen is that it turns on all these different pathways, it'll put out hormones, it will change where it's sending us energy, what kind of chemicals it's producing, because it's having an immune response to this bacteria. But no matter what the bacteria is, it usually at least recognizes it. And so good bacteria can program the plant to have a certain immune system, meaning that it's putting out different types of those hormones and preparing for instance, this is one of the coolest things ever. I think that we can take a bacterium called bacillus subtlest, which is it's found everywhere. It doesn't hurt people, it doesn't hurt plants. If you put it on to plant roots, then all the way up in the leaves where it's not even touching, the plants have pre programmed their leaves so that if a pathogen or a bacterium that comes along to make the plant sick, if that lands on the leaves, that plant is actually more ready to defend against that pathogen than if it didn't have these bacillus subtlest at the roots. So it's sort of like that prep material of okay plants get ready to see some other bacteria because this is a bacteria space. Similar stuff is with humans, where our immune system is constantly kind of putting out different cells and saying like, hey, this this cell is meant to defend us against anything that has this little flag on it like this type of protein on it, and your body has to go through this whole process. saying, Oh, actually, no, we don't want ourselves to attack something with this little protein on it. We don't want our cells to attack this bacteria that's actually really good for us. So if we see that attack, we need to get rid of it. It's it's sort of this training program for your body to learn who's the good guys who's the bad guys? Who do we want to keep an eye on?

Nick VinZant 28:21 I would imagine that any of these kind of micro organisms simply because of their life cycle and evolution, that they're actually much more advanced in a way, is that true?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 28:33 they adapt more quickly, right? Technically, everything is as evolved as each other. Because everything, even if it's something that hasn't changed a lot for a really, really long time, it's still gone through the same amount of pressure, evolutionary pressure, but what I would say is that, let's say you have a guinea pig, you have two guinea pigs, and they have a guinea pig family and then the guinea pigs. Keep having fun. In over 10 years, you've had I don't know what the doubling time of guinea pigs is, but you've had 40 rounds of guinea pigs and you would look at them and say, how, how different are these great, great, great, great, great grandchildren of the first guinea pigs to those original guinea pigs? And you'd say, okay, there's been this amount of change, like maybe we've seen some changes in color or size, or, you know, maybe their eyes are slightly further or, you know, closer together. But with bacteria, they're changing so rapidly, that, you know, they can have a doubling time, which means that they reproduce essentially, in like 20 minutes totally depends on the bacteria. It depends on the environment, but the bacterium that most people think of immediately is called E. coli, or Escherichia coli, but we use it in the lab, it doesn't hurt anything. We use it to study things, though, and it will double every 20 minutes. And so what happens is that over 10 Yours. I don't even know that math right? But you've gotten, you've had so many changes that this, the final grandchild of that original bacterium could look completely different. It's had all of this opportunity to change. And it doesn't have to rely on a bunch of other cells. So for a bacterium, it could change significantly and its behaviors, it might say, Oh, I suddenly now prefer a totally different temperature. And that's not a big issue versus in a human. If you were to suddenly, like, if your arms were suddenly to mutate, it would probably affect a lot of your other processes. So it's this combination of really fast reproduction compared to everything else. And also, they can change so many aspects without really affecting their overall survivability in certain conditions. I think I just made that more confusing.

Nick VinZant 30:57 No, I get it. They basically can adapt quicker

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 31:00 Yeah....but.Oh gosh, I feel myself being really semantic

Nick VinZant 31:07 is that the the dumb guy interpretation they adapt faster than we can.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 31:12 The tricky part the thing that I'm getting hung up on and I think it's just a sign of me needing to, to go back and think about the sitcom stuff that I do is that the word adapt is very different than evolve.

Nick VinZant 31:24 Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions? Always, what is the most overrated micro organism?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 31:33 Oh, the most overrated micro organism. The most overrated micro organism is the bacterium that causes the plague. So it's called Yersinia pestis. And I think it's super overrated because, yes, it's like destroyed societies. And it's this huge player in like world's history. And so that matters. But it's actually pretty easy to kill right now. So I actually got to study Some of this as part of the beginning of my graduate school I got to work with you're sending a pestis and compared to some of the bacterial infections we're seeing that can't be killed by antibiotics. Yersinia pestis is so easily killed by like really basic antibiotics. And so when people get all freaked out about Oh, there's three incidences of the plague. Well, first of all, those happen like those infections happen regularly in Colorado, they're transmitted by fleas on ground squirrels, and every couple years, there's a handful of infections, but of all the bacteria that people think are going to take over the world like everyone thinks that the plague from your past this is gonna come back and I'm like, that is my least concern.

Nick VinZant 32:43 It's a glass cannon. Have you ever heard that phrase?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 32:46 I don't think I have actually. Nick VinZant 32:47 It's a comic book nerd, which I am kind of phrase where they described him as a glass cannon. Like it's very powerful, but it just falls apart as soon as you touch it.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 32:56 Yeah.Yeah, exactly.

Nick VinZant 32:58 Who runs the world. us or them?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 33:01 Oh, for sure them. I mean, we, they could live without us, right? Like humans could be gone tomorrow and most bacteria would not even notice, including the ones on us, like most of the ones that live on us can live in a lot of other animals or just out in the environment. There's no way there's literally no way that we could survive without microbes. Without microbes, we would be covered in just just wastes like not just human waste, but just the world would be covered in detritus of old plants and dust and all this junk that we just think disappears, but it's really microbes doing all of this constant cleaning and production for us.

Nick VinZant 33:42 They don't need us at all kind of makes me sad, actually. They just taken take and take

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 33:50 I think we definitely have this human centric idea. So that question of like, Is it is it a mutualism? And it's like, I mean, because we're people we want to feel like we're giving them something But they don't really need us. They could be anywhere else.

Nick VinZant 34:02 If you had to transform into one of these, would you be an virus or bacteria or a fungi?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 34:10 Oh, you know, I really I like fungi, I think that they are under studied and that's because they're really hard to study. I'm particularly happy I didn't have to say them for my for my work. We know a lot more about bacteria than we do fungi. And so that's why bacteria get more press. fungi are super cool, you know, yeast, it makes beer it makes bread. You know, I don't think there's any higher calling than being able to make beer and bread. So yeah, I'm gonna go fungi.

Nick VinZant 34:38 They seem like the happier fluffier kind of version of it right? Yeah, you know, they're, they're pretty cool. They make hi fi so they're nice and fluffy or they can be in little individual, like spore shapes. And there's a bunch of them that can cause some pretty vicious diseases that are really hard for us to target because going back to that idea of Tree of Life and when they separate it out, fungi are eukaryotes. So a lot of our antibiotics work because they only target bacterial cells and humans aren't made up of cells that are bacterial. But the human cells are eukaryotic fungal cells are bacteria. Whoo. human cells are eukaryotic. fungal cells are eukaryotic. And so it's hard to make chemicals and treatments that are going to target fungi. That won't hurt humans. So I don't know I think, you know, fungi are the come from behind. We're we're not too worried about them now. But that's that's the thing that I'm keeping my eye on of like, if these decide that they want to take over the world, I'm not sure how we can stop them. You have to watch out for the fungi, huh? What are people doing wrong in terms of the world of micro organisms?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 35:58 I think that there is a huge pressure right now. And always, but I think it's growing, especially in terms of increased capitalism of who can have the most exciting finding who can create the one pill cure, who can have the rule that's going to be set in stone forever. Basically, we're trying to simplify it too much in terms of the science, right? It's one thing to be trying to simplify for the sake of communication. And I think we all need to be careful when we communicate with each other to to make sure it's understandable. But far too often, I see companies and scientists and academics try to make their science sound more exciting or more conclusive and saying, okay, we know if we add this bacterium, we get this result. And so we're going to take this bacterium and spread it around the world and we're going to fix whatever human health it's just getting to Grant I wish we could scale it back a little bit and have less competition for creating knowledge. So I guess that's it's really more towards the scientist studying microbiology. I think one of the things we're doing wrong is that we are overselling because we feel like we have to

Nick VinZant 37:19 Like every single research project has to change the world otherwise we're not interested you know, I'm speed flowing right into the next question, which is what is the most interesting micro organism?

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 37:34 Oh, most entering interesting microwaves. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it out to listeria, Listeria monocytogenes. listeria is super cool. It's one of my favorite bacteria. I'm pretty bacteria heavy, like viruses are amazing, but you got to stick with what you know. So listeria are super interesting. First of all, like they're a big issue in terms of causing. If you hear on the news like oh, there's been a huge outbreak. I can't think of the word for this food poisoning. There we go. Food poisoning like Listeria monocytogenes causes a bunch of food poisoning, especially in like milk or different dairy products or packaged meat. A while back, there was a really big outbreak with cantaloupe farm. And the thing with listeria is that it's not it's a pretty hardcore food poisoning. where a lot of people end up hospitalized a lot of people end up dying, but it's so interesting because it is able to survive at cold temperatures and at human temperatures. So like it will grow at refrigerator temperature, and it's very happy there versus we keep things in the refrigerator so that they don't So they don't go bad but but listeria like to be there and they like to be in our bodies and I just think is really cool because no matter what we do, we're like, I'm smarter than the bacterium and put my milk in the fridge. It's like listeria doesn't care. It's it's gonna take a nap. It's fine.

Nick VinZant 39:19 Like the honey badger of bacteria.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 39:22 Yes, yes. Perfect, Nick VinZant 39:24 um, most dangerous one.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 39:29 Most Dangerous, you know, I'm gonna have to think, Wow. I mean, I guess we've kind of classified these with like biosafety level ratings of E. coli. The ones we use in the lab are like a biosafety level one and biosafety level four are microbes that we don't have cures for. So that's things like Ebola, the Ebola virus is just deeply terrifying. The thing with the Ebola virus right is that it is not super transmissible you have to actually be touching the fluid. So I think that man, what's the most terrifying I guess I love them so much. I think they're so cool. So even when they're scary like even during this time of pandemic where everything is terrifying. I'm also just digging into understanding Coronavirus. And so it's really exciting. I guess the scariest topic for me is antibiotic resistance, where we're just getting to the point with certain diseases that we used to be able to easily wipe them out and because of our behaviors and not not doing this responsibly, we're getting to a point where we're going to be set back 200 years and suddenly say, we can't treat with antibiotics. We've got to just treat your symptoms and not cure you of that bacteria.

Nick VinZant 40:52 Tell me about Ph. D balance.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 40:54 Oh, Ph. D balance.So yeah, I found it Ph. D. Balance is In my second to last year of grad school, so this was back in March of 2018. And it came about because I read a paper saying that about somewhere between 25 and 40% of graduate students were dealing with signs of anxiety or depression. And this really hit home for me because I was a graduate student too, has always dealt with depression and anxiety. And I've had a really hard year that the year before. And I saw this, and I really wish I had known that statistic because I wish I felt like I could reach out and talk to somebody. And so I founded this page on Instagram, it was supposed to be just like a get a handful of people together to talk about our experiences and support each other. It was originally called pH depression, and shared some of my story and shared it with a photo of like, Hey, here's the person that you normally see. But here's the story going on behind it. And it just took off like people wanted to come and share their stories. They talked about anxiety about postpartum Depression, about bipolar disorder about traumatic abuse all of these different pieces. And it started spreading out to being something of just a place for graduate students to talk to each other about some of the taboo topics that everyone sort of feels like they are the only one to experience. It's something that they should be ashamed of whether it's problems with an advisor or difficulties with financial situations or difficulties with mental health, making places for people to actually talk about those things and learn from each other experiences.

Nick VinZant 42:33 That's pretty much all the questions I have what's coming up next for you.

Dr. Susanna L. Harris 42:37 So let's see.So I'm continuing to run PhD balance. I now have a team of about 20 volunteers all spread out over the world and they're the best people I get to interact with. It's an amazing group of folks. I'm also really leaning into my interest in science communication. I did some while I was in grad school through a local planetary And through Instagram and Twitter. But now working as a marketer for a company called grant engine that is pretty cool. They actually write government grants so they write the grants for a company to get government funding. And so my job is that I get to talk to scientists who we think could benefit from that government funding, I get to talk to different funders and explain why they should their companies should be applying to these sort of things. So I get to talk to scientists to business people and also get to play with some of my marketing skills.

Nick VinZant 43:35 I want to thank Dr. Harris so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Ultra Runner Ian Morgan

His body aches, his toe nails are falling off and he's hallucinating from a lack of sleep, but Ultra Runner Ian Morgan couldn't be happier. We talk 150 mile runs, training and nutrition secrets and the hardest run in the world. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Life Accomplishments.

Interview with Ultra Runner Ian Morgan

Speakers:

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Ian Morgan: Ultra Runner

Episode Highlights

• What happens to your body during an Ultramarathon

• Ultra running training methods

• Ultra running nutrition

• Hallucinating during an ultra marathon

• Hardest Ultramarathon in the world

• Best Ultramarathon in the world

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we are going for a long, long run. And then we're counting down the top five life accomplishments.

Ian Morgan 0:27 When we say upwards of a marathon distance that can be anything from 30 miles to 50 miles to 200 plus miles. There's a common denominator of wanting to challenge yourself in a world where everything is so accessible. This is something that you can just buy. You start to get things like hallucination.

Nick VinZant 0:48 hallucinations, like you'll be out there just running and hallucinating at the same time.

Ian Morgan 0:53 Yeah, it's, it's actually quite common usually in the second night, trees, rocks and things come to life. You're look like a rabbit jumping across the path, you'll see people. And even sometimes they talk to you, you just gotta mentally say, Okay, I've got to put one foot in front of the other, and I've got to take some food and I've got to drink some water. And I'm just gonna keep moving forward, just like life.

Nick VinZant 1:15 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I've always been fascinated by people who pushed the limit, push the limit in terms of what the human body and what our minds are capable of, whether that's running 50 miles, 75 miles, 100 miles, 150 miles. Our first guest is an ultra runner, who is really pushing the boundaries of what his body and mind are capable of. And I think that when you do that, you'll hear in this interview exactly what that does to your body and mind. And there's also this fascinating insight into the difference between being motivated and being driven.This is ultra runner Ian Morgan. What separates an ultra runner from just a regular runner?

Ian Morgan 2:09 I guess I could what distance are we talking ultra running? ultra running is any distance over the marathon distance, which is 26.2 miles for the US listeners and 42.2 kilometers for the metric countries that are listening. So any distance over a marathon distance is considered an ultra. Now, generally, ultras are usually run in trial type environments. So in the hills mountains, as far as I know, anyway, that's off road, but there are ultras that around on the roads as well. When we say upwards of a marathon distance that can be anything from 30 miles to 50 miles to 200 plus miles.

Nick VinZant 2:55 At this point, what's the longest one that you've done?

Ian Morgan 2:59 At this point 280 kilometers from memory, just Yes, I think 290 kilometers. So what would that be? 100 and 70 something miles.

Nick VinZant 3:14 But when we talk about running it like, are you running it running it like you're running the whole time?

Ian Morgan 3:21 No. For those that don't run ultras, it's not like a marathon where you go from point A to point B, and you're running at a reasonably consistent pace. And ultra, for instance, one I've run 100 miler, it had 10,000 meters of elevation gain throughout the race, which is about 30,000 feet. So certainly on some of those big climbs, you're just walking them even the the elite professionals walk or power height the climbs so so yeah, it's not running at a consistent pace all the time. It's a combination of walking running and sitting down and having something to eat now and again.

Nick VinZant 4:05 iIs there any crying involved? I feel like there would be a lot of crime involved.

Ian Morgan 4:10 There is some crying involved.It's different for everyone. I've certainly seen some interesting situations is there's crying, there's bleeding. There's secretion of various bodily fluids at different points. Yeah, that's an interesting type of environment to be in. However, it's also a very rewarding one.

Nick VinZant 4:34 What is it? I mean, you know, for me, somebody who hates to run more than basically down the stairs. Like what what is it about it that is attracted to you and to other people? Like why do people want to do this?

Ian Morgan 4:48 Again, an interesting question, Nick.I think it draws a wide variety of people. Certainly if you look at a bunch of ultra runners at the start line, we've got people from all types professions from doctors, lawyers, car mechanics, teachers, I think there's there's a common denominator of wanting to challenge yourself in a world where everything is so accessible 24 seven, you can just order stuff on the internet now, you can get a lot of stuff done for you. This is something that you can't just buy, you have to earn and you have to work hard to earn it. You can't just go out and decide to run an ultra. It does take a fair bit of effort planning. And, and and it's challenging not just physically but mentally,

Nick VinZant 5:37 When when you look at the different lengths of the races, is that a 75 mile race that much harder than a 50 mile race.

Ian Morgan 5:47 Well, once again, it depends on the terrain like a 50 mile race on the road is going to be a lot a 50 mile race sir right in the desert MikeA lot more challenging than a 75 mile race on a road. road course. So it really depends on the terrain. And yeah, that, you know, as the distance increases, it does push your, your physical limits a lot more, you start to get things like calorie deficit, dehydration. And also the longer the race if you maybe you might go through two nights where you don't sleep, you start to get things like hallucinations or or sleep deprivation. So, yeah, there can be challenges in different distances for sure.

Nick VinZant 6:36 hallucinations like you'll be out there just running and hallucinating at the same time.

Ian Morgan 6:43 Yeah, yeah, it's, it's actually quite common, usually in the second night. In fact, most people who have never run a really long ultra Yeah, be prepared for that. You'll you'll see trees, rocks and things come to life. Your look like a rabbit jumping across the path. You'll see people Even sometimes they talk to you. It's quite normal. And once you once you've experienced that a few times, you will learn to embrace it and just accept it.

Nick VinZant 7:10 Yeah, but it is interesting. Yeah, I've never heard that. Like, I feel like that's a sign that your body is saying, Hey, man, I don't know if you should be doing this.

Ian Morgan 7:20 While certainly your mind does play tricks on you after a lack of sleep, yeah,

Nick VinZant: like what what usually goes first for you? Is it? Is it the mental part? Or is it the physical part that you struggle more with?

Ian Morgan 7:31 I think for most for me, personally, I think it's, I think it's more mental. And I think for most people it is but it's not that it goes so much. Because after a while you actually learn to, to, to embrace it. And in saying that, you've got to remember I'm 50 years old now. So I've had a lifetime of business staff and the successes and failures and so senses, family issues. I've got four grown up kids.I've been through a divorce. I've been through personal health issues, you know, so. So I think life kind of prepares you in some ways for these ultras, in the sense that you mentally you develop a certain amount of, well, I've just got to get this done just like you do in life. There's usually not a lot of options.When you're faced with a lot of this stuff, you just got to actually do with it. And ultra runnings kind of the same physically, your body starts to get sore gets tired things get, you know, the wheels start to fall off, I guess. And you just gotta mentally say, Okay, I've got to put one foot in front of the other. I've got to take some food and I've got to drink some water, and I'm just gonna keep moving forward, just like life.

Nick VinZant 8:48 How did you kind of get started? What did you specifically set out to start in ultra running? Or did you just start running in this was kind of a natural progression.

Ian Morgan 8:56 Yeah. It was a natural progression. I just had it running.I was a, an overweight business guy. And I was under a lot of stress at this point in my life. Rest seven years ago, I think naffaa memory. We just had some we had some earthquakes a few years previous I was dealing with a lot of insurance issues, finding them in court, etc, etc. And I was just really unhappy in my life. My marriage at the time was falling apart, etc. And, and I just remember when I was a kid, their happiest moments was when I was running in the hills then and I just got up and started to run for no other reason than that. I just thought I just want to find some happiness in my life again, and all the things in my life at the time, just seemed to be stressing me and bang I just got up started to run wasn't very pretty at first. And it just grew from there and there was never a plan to travel the world and run ultras does this just so

Nick VinZant 10:02 are you pretty athletic before this? Like, did you do a lot of sports? Or did you just kind of develop this over time?

Ian Morgan 10:10 I did when I was a kid. That's a very fair and high school. But after that, I actually got quite fat.Serve Andrea, I didn't, I really did very little at all. I did nothing at all except eat and drink.So, yeah, I mean, there was obviously some, some ability there as a teenager, however, I think 20 odd years of bad eating and bad lifestyle and stress took their toll. And it was a lot of hard work to bounce back to what I'm doing now. It wasn't hard work in the sense I was. I was trying to lose weight or get a six pack or anything like this. It was just that I had such a passion to pursue running. That's what I actually enjoy. I enjoy something that seems impossible to me or group difficult from to achieve right now, and I think that's one of the keys.

Nick VinZant 11:03 You mentioned that you are 50. Are you older, younger about the same as most of the other people who do this?

Ian Morgan 11:09 Probably older. Most people get into this by sort of retired from the road running and get into this, and they're probably 30s. I mean, certainly the elite guys are now starting to get on in their 20s. And we're seeing a lot more of that. But as the sport grows, the popularity of the sport grows around the world.

Nick VinZant 11:30 What's your normal week of training look like? leading up to leading up to a race event?

Ian Morgan 11:37 really depends on the event but as a general rule, for example, last week, I did 150 kilometers. So what would that be I don't know about just under 100 miles last week, plus, that's just ramping plus strength training and some swimming. And that's even on holiday. It can go up to like you know, 100 plus My weeks for some of the bigger events, but I generally have somewhere between,let's say sort of, I think 60 miles a week will be an average 60 to 65 miles a week will be an average over the year, if you had like,

Nick VinZant 12:16 but if you had 100 mile race coming up, you're not going to try to run 100 mile race before not right?

Ian Morgan 12:23 No, no, not at all. Not at all. So so you're not going to put up with ultra running, you build up an endurance base with a lot of the work you do and you do a lot more strength training to build, like strength and stability into your body. So you can basically stay out right for that period of time while you're running or moving through the hills. So yeah, you know, it depends. I haven't coach so a lot of the time he'll study the race. I'm going to run and he'll sit my training. So some weeks might be quite light and easy. Other weeks might be quite big.

Nick VinZant 12:57 How many calories like the you go through a day.

Ian Morgan 13:02 For example, this weekend, I'd run run about the slot weekend just been I've run I don't know, about 90 kilometers. what's what's there now about 50 miles over the weekend plus some swimming and strength training, that will probably burn like 8000 calories just for that training alone plus my normal calories of walking around and doing other stuff. So yeah, I mean, you do have to eat.And, but it's really about eating the foods that that fuel you. So people usually say, Well, I guess I can just go and eat pizza and doughnuts as much as you want. Well, it's not entirely true. You have to like eat foods that that help your muscles recover and help your body recover and and fuel you for the next training session.

Nick VinZant 13:55 Man, what are your knees like though?

Ian Morgan 13:58 Yeah, fine. You know, this is a common question people ask runners, what about your knees? It's actually most runners I know have really good knees. You learn to do strength work, you learn to look after your body a lot more. I mean, I'm focused a lot on recovery, which involves things like physio strength training, stretching, drinking enough fluids and taking care of your body so you came to like take care of of small niggles or issues a lot sooner than maybe the average person would. So yeah, they no issues.

Nick VinZant 14:36 Is there like a certain body type that most ultra marathon or ultra runners have like, are they I'm imagining somebody that's fairly tall are they fairly short, like what's the kind of the common body type?

Ian Morgan 14:49 I do come in all shapes and sizes but it is a common role. I think you would say probably shorter and and skinnier along the way.Guys moment at the champion of the fair would be field would, would be, I don't know the weight in pounds, but in kilos, a lot of guys sort of between about 60to 65 kilos and a lot of woman are about 40 to 50 kilos. So very light very short usually, I'm there are exceptions to the rule. I mean I'm I'm six foot one, six foot one a bit, and 75 are best 74 kilos at the moment. So you know there are different types but as a general rule smaller and lighter.

Nick VinZant 15:36 Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Ian Morgan 15:41 Well, let's give them a go.

Nick VinZant 15:43 When is the last time your nipples have bled?

Ian Morgan 15:46 Um, it's been a long time actually. Generally what happens is, is they after a few races of them bleeding, they harden up it's like getting calluses on your feet.After a while, the skin just gets hot and I haven't had that issue for years.

Nick VinZant 16:04 Is runner's high really a thing?

Ian Morgan 16:07 Yes, it is. Most definitely, usually it happens in the earliest stages of running. When your body releases those endorphins and you get that rush and yeah, it has happened to me and it's amazing when it does doesn't generally happen so much as you become more experienced your body adapts and and and doesn't give you that. That feeling as much.

Nick VinZant 16:33 If you're on out there on like, let's say 100 kilometer race, like At what point in that race? Are you going to think like, Oh my gosh, I'm starting to feel tired.

Ian Morgan 16:45 That can vary between about 50 kilometers in to like the last five kilometers to go.

Nick VinZant 16:53 Just kind of depends on like the race itself or your mental state or what is it exactly,

Ian Morgan 16:59 it depends on the race, how much sleep you got the night before if you had to travel halfway around the world to be at the event, so there's a number of factors. Each race is so different bucket list race that you would like to do a bucket list. Let me see there is one that I was going to be doing this year, but it's been postponed to next year. It is the snowman race. It is in the Himalayan mountains of Bhutan, 300 kilometers. And with an I think an average altitude of 4000 plus meters, which is what for I think was about 12 to 12 to 40,000 feet. That's the base elevation. So you're going to be climbing up more than that at some points.

Nick VinZant 17:46 Are the organizers of these things basically just trying to figure out the hardest possible thing that they could do.

Ian Morgan 17:53 Sometimes it feels like that but no, this this event was the snowman race was put on by the king of Bhutan to celebrate his wedding anniversary.But looks like we'll be celebrating it next year instead. But yeah, I think the organizers they do tend to find something that's more challenging now, we're seeing more and more extreme stuff and more difficult events.

Nick VinZant 18:22 Is there a point though, where somebody's just gonna like Look man, we can't do this. We're gonna run 100 kilometers straight up Everest.

Ian Morgan 18:32 Yeah, well, I think what's gonna happen is there's obviously a safety issue involved in the sense that you can make a race quite extreme, but if you're gonna make it too extreme, you're you gonna limit the the ability of people to complete it and be completed safely.So I think races certainly have to look at the level of experience that some runners have in regards to what they can actually achieve. Say I think that there's gonna be a certain ceiling or limit, that that's not going to include the entire population. Just for the mere fact that that you don't want people having issues on the course.

Nick VinZant 19:13 Hardest race that you've ever done. Hardest race that you think is out there.

Ian Morgan 19:18 Hardest race I've ever done. Probably I did a desert race and I never ran in the desert before and running up and down sand dunes and hate was certainly a challenge. However, I loved it. I lost I think nine toenails in that race.Hardest race I think out there. I don't know. I guess they're bringing new ones in all the time. I hated the Barkley marathons. The one that it's in the US is quite mentally challenging. I think there's a documentary on Netflix about it. But it's challenging in a mental way more than a physical

Nick VinZant 20:00 I'm actually seen that documentary. It's pretty good. It the race itself doesn't look like I didn't look that hard. But it's obviously must be hard if nobody's really finishing it.

Ian Morgan 20:09 Yeah, that's the thing. I think it's a mental challenge on that one.

Nick VinZant 20:13 What happens to your feet when you lose nine toenails? Well, they swell up a little bit.

Ian Morgan 20:20 You actually get used to it, I end up taking usually a small knife with me to the events where I know I'm going to lose some toenails, and I just chopped them off. When they start to come loose that way. It's just so much easier to run. If you've got half an hour hanging there and it's digging into your skin hurts more. Whereas if you just get a knife and like, cut them out. It's just so much better to run. So yeah, you get used to it.

Nick VinZant 20:45 It's such an interesting dichotomy that some people hearing that will absolutely never want to do this and some people will absolutely be like, sign me up and there's no in between, right.

Ian Morgan 20:57 That's right. Yeah. You know, if you told me this before I started ultra running, I would say there's no way I could even handle them. It's like people think turnouts out for torture, you know. Then when it happens, your thing is not so bad.

Nick VinZant 21:12 What happens to your body on a long run? That wouldn't happen necessarily if you're running just five or six miles like something that would that was completely unexpected for you.

Ian Morgan 21:23 You started to get cramps in places you didn't know cramps could happen. Dehydration is a big one to watch.I don't know. Like I said the lack of sleep is a big one. But that's a that's a race not a long run. You get used to the distances that you train for. So you know, a marathon distance runner will probably their long run is what they 20 miles 22 miles usually, an ultra runner their long run might be a be 30 miles. So you get used to the distances you're trained for

Nick VinZant 21:58 what motivates you

Ian Morgan 22:00 I think motivation is a is an interesting word in the sense that, I mean, I certainly use it on Instagram and hashtags. There's these terms motivation Monday and all this kind of stuff. However, I think motivation is is something that wanes, a lot of people are motivated when they see a video or they see someone achieve something that they would like to do. I think, for me, consistency and discipline are probably more important words. I find, if I'm consistent with doing the work, and I'm disciplined enough to do it, then then I'll find the motivation. Motivation is the thing that sort of comes last off first for me. When you look at it, you know, a lot of a lot of ultra runners.

Nick VinZant 22:45 Are they kind of like, hey, somebody's gonna come in, they're gonna do this for a year or two, and then you're never gonna see him again. Or two people usually kind of stick around for the long haul.

Ian Morgan 22:55 Yeah, a lot of people usually there for the long haul, the only issue that are I've noticed in the sport in the last few years is maybe more some of the younger folks coming through is they are young, they're very strong, they're very fit and they push to the point of like burning themselves out. So you might see them for two or three years and then they're gone. And I think that's, that's something to look at. And that comes with life experience, too is, is consistency is the key not not just pushing to the absolute limit every single time and then burning out. So yeah, I'm seeing more and more people burning themselves out and more probably at a younger level than at an older level.

Nick VinZant 23:41 If you were gonna pick like one race one event, as somebody who said, I'm gonna do one of these, and that's, that's it. I'm just gonna prove to myself I can do this. Which one would you say like all you got to do this one.

Ian Morgan 23:54 For sheer beauty and an incredible scenery and a challenge, I would say La Sportiva Lavaredo Ultra Trail in Italy, it's just an amazing event. The dolomite mountains are simply beautiful and it's tough. It's not one you're gonna just jog through. But it is an incredible experience.

Nick VinZant 24:15 This is the last question for me. I mean, when you're running 100 plus miles, like what are you thinking about the whole time?

Ian Morgan 24:23 But actually, a lot of the time, you're just enjoying the process, one foot in front of the other looking at the scenery around you talking to other people checking in with your body, you know, what, how is everything feeling? Am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Am I tired? And the time passes very quickly, actually, you'd be surprised like you can be out there for anywhere between 13 to 30 hours and and the time goes really quickly.

Nick VinZant 24:52 That's really all the questions I got, man. What's the guy missed anything? what's coming up next for you?

Ian Morgan 24:58 what's coming up next. I have an event in the UK on September the 19th 125 kilometers. I think it's in the south downs, that's gonna be interesting. It's gonna be a lot of fun. There's a few good ultra runners coming to that as well. So I'm looking forward to the challenge, then I'm really not sure the rest calendar for them for the rest of the year is still up in the air, but most races are still waiting to confirm various events because of obviously, the you know, restrictions in regards to COVID or regards to the current pandemic, I should say, situations throughout the world. So yeah, I'm looking forward to my race in September then we will see I have quite a few events planned but I have to hear back from the races and my sponsors to see which ones will go ahead.

Nick VinZant 25:56 I mean, is this for a lot for yourself or for a lot of ultra runners like is this is this a full time living?

Ian Morgan 26:03 Probably not for a lot of ultra runners but yes certainly for myself and the pros or the elites, it's not a sport like professional baseball or football where there is a huge salary packages. It is growing and it is becoming more monetized. But yeah, I make a living out of it. I also do you know, like my social media work have sponsors which I'm very grateful for. And I have a lot of support from from the ultra running community and the online community. So I managed to get by doing this full time which I'm very grateful for.

Nick VinZant 26:43 We we just got this question this one isn't in but somebody just sent me this. I want to ask you this one better thing to come out of New Zealand, Lord of the Rings Flight of the Conchords or hunt for the Wilderpeople.

Ian Morgan 26:58 Oh wow.Yeah yeah oh very good our two good movies and TV show huh Flight of the Conchords is very Kiwi humor Lord of the Rings probably. I think half most of the world's probably seen it.For the world of people is hilarious.I'm gonna go to the Conchords because it's very key way and probably only Kiwis will get most of the jokes.

Nick VinZant 27:26 I want to thank Ian so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. And we have also included his information in the RSS feed that's on this podcast. His Instagram is really cool. It's really interesting, even outside of an ultra runner perspective, perspective, because there's so much inspirational content that's on there.And it's also it's really cool for just seeing some beautiful places in the world.

Sleep Specialist Dr. Jade Wu

What's the secret to a great night's sleep, why don't we die in dreams, what are phones doing to our brains. Sleep Psychologist Dr. Jade Wu answers your biggest sleep questions in this episode. We talk the secret to sleeping soundly, how much sleep you really need, sleep disorders, circadian rhythms and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things You Should Never Get Rid Of.

Interview with Sleep Psychologist and Sleep Specialist Dr. Jade Wu

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Jade Wu: Sleep Psychologist and Sleep Specialist

In this episode we cover:

• What is the key to a good night’s sleep

• How much sleep do you really need

• How your unique circadian rhythm can impact your sleep

• How are sleep disorders treated

• Why don’t we die in dreams

• Why people are biologically hard wired to sleep at certain times

• What are the signs of insomnia

• What is the best way to get to sleep

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're going to sleep and we're counting down the top five things that you should never get rid of

Dr. Jade Wu 0:26 During sleep. That's one of the times that the brain is kind of repairing itself is doing some important janitorial work. So it's literally clearing out toxins from the cerebral spinal fluid which is literally your brain juice. We are also hardwired to be sleeping a certain time at certain times a day. So for example, I am a biologically hardwired night owl. So for example, if I need eight hours of sleep per night, and I get it from midnight to 8am I feel absolutely great. But if I get the same amount of sleep, so eight hours, but I get it from 10pm to 6am. I feel like total crap. So we're completely messing up the brain's ability to tell what time it is. And when the brain the SCN is confused about what time it is, is not as able to regulate our bodies.

Nick VinZant 1:21 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance to like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So something that really annoys me is when you see these stories on the news, and they talk about you need to get more sleep. Sleep is really important. Yeah. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows they should be getting more sleep and everybody knows that it's important, but what are you actually going to do about it? Our first guest has some real practical tips about what you can actually do about it. And as a clinical scientist, she also has the A fascinating insight into what sleep is doing to our brains and to our bodies. And what happens in cases where she has patients that aren't getting enough sleep. This is sleep psychologist, Dr. Jade Woo. So obviously sleep is important. But why is it so important? What is it doing to the brain into the body

Dr. Jade Wu 2:25 sleep is incredibly important. It's actually doing a lot of different functions for the body and the brain. For example, during sleep, that's one of the times that the brain is kind of repairing itself is doing some important janitorial work. So it's literally clearing out toxins from the cerebral spinal fluid, which is literally your brain juice. So you know, the the stuff that accumulates during the day that your brain doesn't need really needs to be taken out during sleep, and if it accumulates too much, when there's not enough sleep, then it builds up and builds have been built up and can increase your risk for something like Alzheimer's disease. Of course, it's not like if you miss a couple nights of sleep, you'll have Alzheimer's, it doesn't work like that. But prolonged chronic sleep deprivation can prevent your body and your brain from repairing properly. And aside from repairing itself, sleep is also just important for normal growth. So for example, in kids and in teenagers, especially, sleep is doing a lot of developmental growth. That's where a lot of the reproductive hormones are doing their work during adolescence. That's where the growth hormones are flowing for kids to grow their bodies and their brains. It's doing emotional processing, it's consolidating the memories. So all of the normal functions that we do as humans really have a lot of their bases in sleep.

Nick VinZant 3:58 Does anybody actually get enough sleep.

Dr. Jade Wu 4:02 Sure, yeah. My clients after they work with me. I'm only partially kidding there. I think plenty of people do get enough sleep. And the I think the more important question maybe to ask is, how do we know what is enough sleep? Because we often see the number eight flowing around right? The eight hours, you should get eight to nine hours or seven to eight hours. But I think that's a little bit misleading, because that's like asking, you know, how many calories should you consume? Well, it depends on who you are, you know, are you Michael Phelps or are you Ruth Bader Ginsburg, you know, they both do very important jobs, but one of them probably eats a lot more than the other and it kind of works similarly for sleep. For someone who is very physically active and maybe a teenager, someone who is doing a lot of physical work, they probably mean more sleep than someone who is older, like in their 70s or 80s. And not doing as much physical work and not doing as much brain development, you know, as a child. So it really depends on your your genetic predisposition, your age, your lifestyle, your physical activity, your circadian rhythm, a bunch of different things. So it's not actually too easy of a question to answer. But I think it's an important one to start with before you tell yourself all I'm not getting enough sleep or I am getting enough sleep. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah,

Nick VinZant 5:40 I think that the question would then be like, How do I know if I'm getting enough sleep or if I've just adjusted to the pattern that I'm in?

Dr. Jade Wu 5:48 Sure, sure. Yeah. So I think the only way you can figure out if you're getting enough sleep for you, is to see how much your body can consistently sleep without getting insomnia. So that means giving yourself plenty of opportunity to sleep. So not burning the candle at both ends, you know, making sure you wind down at the end of the day. So you can let yourself feel sleepy cues, like the yawning and the eyes drifting. Making sure that you can feel those cues when your body does get sleepy. But, you know, if you start to get insomnia as in trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep or waking up too early, then maybe you're giving yourself too much time to sleep. So it's a little bit of a trial and error.

Nick VinZant 6:35 When I hear insomnia, I'm thinking basically, like people sleeping one or two hours a night. Like what what exactly is insomnia?

Dr. Jade Wu 6:44 You know, I've actually have had clients with insomnia who slept about eight or nine hours a night, but they still had insomnia. So your question is a really good one. It's not about the quantity of sleep that you get. It's about Whether that quantity of sleep matches your need, and whether you have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. So the official definition of insomnia disorder is you have trouble falling asleep, staying asleep, waking up too early, or otherwise not getting the pattern, the quality of sleep that you like, that you would like. And this is causing you problems in the daytime, not just at night. And this is happening despite having enough opportunity to sleep. So this last point is really important. Insomnia is not someone burning the candle at both ends. a college student pulling all nighters because they're studying for exams or single mom working three jobs, they don't have enough time to sleep, those those situations are not insomnia. those situations are sleep deprivation. Insomnia is not sleep deprivation. Plenty of people with insomnia are actually getting enough sleep objectively sleep, speaking But they're, they're trying, they're either trying too hard to sleep too early or they're, they keep waking up and not being able to fall back asleep, or their body and their mind are just too hyped up so that they're not getting the restful type of sleeps that they would like. When

Nick VinZant 8:18 we talk about the amount of sleep that somebody should be getting. I'll just use myself for an example. Okay, I usually get seven hours of sleep. But could I be in a situation where like, oh, if I got seven hours and 15 minutes, I could be a genius or something like that is that you know what I mean? Like, am I missing out just by not getting enough sleep? Like, could I not unlock my full potential so to speak?

Dr. Jade Wu 8:44 I would say they are okay. There are two parts. In my answer to your question. The first part, the direct answer is sure it's possible. I doubt that 15 minutes would make much of a difference, but it's possible that you're someone Who actually biologically needs let's say nine hours, but you haven't been giving yourself the chance to get nine hours. So you know, your seven hours are just not cutting it. That's very possible. And you would know that if you are, you know really cranky during the day can't concentrate can't function really well. You're running on just an empty tank all the time you feel really Draggy all of these signs could point towards you not get getting enough sleep. Now one way you could find out if you have, if you're lucky enough to be able to do this is to just give yourself free rein to sleep more or give yourself time to be in bed more just in case you could sleep more. And play with that. See if maybe you can consistently sleep seven and a quarter, seven and a half, maybe eight even. And if you can consistently do that without getting insomnia. So again without trouble falling asleep. asleep or waking up too early, then it will have turned out that you did need more sleep. But if you start trying to sleep more, but you know, you're just tossing and turning, you're waking up a lot. You're waking up too early, then maybe seven was actually the right amount for you. So that's the first part of the answer. The second part is that I think one question, that sort of underlying your question that's not getting asked is about circadian rhythm. So this is your body clock. We all have a roughly 24 hour biological clocks that we run on. And our bodies and our brains run best when we when? Sorry, let me say that again. So our bodies and our brains run best when we're running on a consistent 24 hour cycle. And when our sleep timing matches what our body wants to do, so have you heard of people being like night owls or morning Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's actually a biologically hardwired thing. That's not just people's preference. Oh, like I like being a morning person or, oh, you know, I'm a party animal. I'm a night owl. So I like to sleep in. And I'm lazy. It's not like that was partially like that, maybe. But we are also hardwired to be sleeping a certain time, at certain times a day. So for example, I am a biologically hardwired night owl. So, for example, if I need eight hours of sleep per night, and I get it, from midnight to 8am, I feel absolutely great. I jump out of bed and I'm ready to go and I'm on top of the world. But if I get the same amount of sleep, so eight hours, but I get it from 10pm to 6am. I feel like total crap for the whole day. It takes me like eight hours to boot up. So the timing of your sleep actually really matters. So when you say that you sleep seven hours a night And maybe you could be reaching more of your full potential if you got more. I'm wondering if you know, if you don't feel you're 100% maybe you don't need more sleep, maybe you need to sleep at a different time.

Nick VinZant 12:12 I had never heard that before. I never even thought of that. It's not just when how much sleep you get but when you get that sleep.

Dr. Jade Wu 12:21 Absolutely. It's such an underrated topic. I think all over the news all over, you know, these social media health campaigns. We're talking about how much sleep we need, and that is really important, but I think we're really neglecting to talk about the timing aspect. And that is actually more important than what I even just said. Did you know that out of all the list out of the whole list of probable carcinogens. The only item that is not a chemical is circadian misalignment, meaning your body not running on a 24 hour cycle. not sleeping when you should be. So this is born out of research showing that rotating shift workers and night shift workers are at a greater risk for cancer than people who would work day shifts and regular shifts.

Nick VinZant 13:14 All edit this part out but for years, I worked as a news reporter on the morning shift and I I am I am sure that I have taken years off my life.

Dr. Jade Wu 13:24 Oh,I'm so sorry.

Nick VinZant 13:28 It's just not natural. Like we should not be doing this.

Dr. Jade Wu 13:34 And I don't think you should edit that part of how or I mean, obviously it's up to you. But I think that our personal experiences are really valid. You know, when we say we feel like total crap. When we get up early in the morning. That's not just us. You know, being crybabies about it. We really truly don't function well. When we get up too early or get up too late for that matter. So knowing the timing of You need to sleep is really important.

Nick VinZant 14:01 When you see patients, what is the most common complaint, like what's usually the reason that they're coming to see you besides not getting enough sleep? Like what's the underlying cause of it?

Dr. Jade Wu 14:12 Sure. The most common complaint I get when they first come into the office is I read, insert, newspaper, article, magazine article, the book, why we sleep. And now I'm afraid that I'm going to get dementia, I'm going to die early, I'm going to have a heart attack. People are really, really anxious about their sleep, especially people who are otherwise high functioning, otherwise doing well on life. Otherwise more or less healthy. They tend to be the most anxious about their sleep. So they're the ones reading the headlines about how we should get eight hours or else and they're worried that they're seven and a half hours that's not cutting it. And because they were working They're seven and a half hours wasn't cutting it, they were doing things like going to bed too early or trying to sleep in, or trying to take naps or trying to meditate really hard. But meditating is not something you should be doing really hard. But they've sort of worked themselves up into this anxiety about sleep that ironically then fed into their anxiety. And now they've had anxiety for years. And they're dependent on some sort of sleep medication, and they would really like to come off of it. And that's why they ended up in my office.

Nick VinZant 15:33 What is all of this screen time doing to our sleep cycles.

Dr. Jade Wu 15:39 Yes, I like that. You said sleep cycles, because this goes back to the biological clock question. So our clocks run on, like I said, on about 24 hour cycle. But how do we know like, how do our brains know what time it is? Right? So the master clock in the brain called the super charismatic nucleus The cn for short. The cn is the master clock that the rest of your body looks to to see what time it is. And the only way or not the only way but the main way that the CN knows what time it is, is by how much light is coming into your eyes. So there are actually cells in the back of your eye eyes in the retina, that project directly to the brain to you know, almost directly to the CN to say, Oh, it's bright outside, or, oh no, it's dark outside. And our ancestors, you know, ones that didn't have iPads and didn't have electricity. When it was dark, it was night and when it was light it was day. So our brains had a very, very clear cue for knowing what time it was. But now we are watching our TVs and on our phones and on our iPads well into the night after sun has set and we are working indoors in offices that maybe don't have a lot of legs. Or, you know, we're working night shift or something like that. And so we're completely messing up the brain's ability to tell what time it is. And when the brain the CN is confused about what time it is, is not as able to regulate our bodies, and, importantly, not as able to regulate our sleep. And that's part of why we sometimes have trouble sleeping or don't get good quality sleep.

Nick VinZant 17:25 This night mode if like people put it on that, Does that help? Or is that just kind of like a marketing trick? Dr. Jade Wu 17:30 No, that does help actually. So if you think about it, our caveman ancestors, they did have some light after sunset, right? They had campfires or bonfires. So these fires are orangey and tone or red. So these lies actually do not set our biological clocks so having some orangey warm lights after sunset is perfectly fine. So having your phone on night mode wearing blue blocking glasses, which are basically amber colored, you know, lenses that filter out the blue lights, the blue wavelengths that do set our brain clocks. All of those things can help.

Nick VinZant 18:17 What's your recommended routine for people in terms of just getting ready to go to bed? That is better, like do they need to be doing something specific? Or do they just need to do the same thing?

Dr. Jade Wu 18:29 I think they just need to do generally the same thing more or less. As long as those things are pretty pleasant and more or less relaxing. There are no hard and fast rules about what you must do. It's not like you have to listen to rain sounds or have to read a book. Do whatever works for you for myself, I Well, right now may not be the best example because I do have a four month old so a lot of it revolves around him, but if he's sleeping Then my routine is to kind of wind down, take a shower, drink a little bit of water. And let's see, I have a little light snack, I do some reading or journaling, I hang out with my husband, I listen to an audio book, and then I go to sleep. So that's my routine. But you don't have to do that exact same thing. As long as you're doing something relaxing and pleasant. Don't try to do your taxes right before bedtime. Don't have an argument with your spouse right before bed. Or if you have to do that, don't do it in the bedroom. Try to do in the kitchen or something or saying that argument for the next day.

Nick VinZant 19:39 I've heard something that like you're not supposed to the bed is for sleeping, and for, let's say enjoyment and anything other than that you're not supposed to like be in the bedroom. Is that true?

Dr. Jade Wu 19:51 Yes. I think that's a really, really good point. And the reason is that our brains are just really good at putting two and two together. You know, like if we all ways. Let's see what's a good example. If every time you go to grandma's house, you get delicious cookies, then your mouth is gonna start watering every time you walk into grandma's house, right? Like our brains are very good at anticipating what's about to happen. So if you are arguing with your spouse in the bedroom, if you're playing Grand Theft Auto and your bedroom, if you are, you know, watching the latest political debate in the bedroom, you are now going to be relaxed in the bedroom. Because when you get in there, your brains gonna go, Oh, I know what place this is. This is the place to get all riled up and get frustrated. So then your body starts to automatically do its arousal, fight or flight thing, and you won't really be able to fall asleep. Well like that.

Nick VinZant 20:49 What's the most interesting Sleep Disorder you've ever dealt with?

Dr. Jade Wu 20:54 Huh? So there are a bunch of interesting ones called parasomnias. So this is Like the sleepwalking, the night terrors, the sleep paralysis, all of the freaky stuff that are actually quite scary and disturbing if you experience it, but are not necessarily that bad for your health. So I mean, there's a range. And I think the most interesting case I've seen is a sexsomnia case where someone Someone was having sex in their sleep and they were not aware of it.

Nick VinZant 21:30 Every time I see sleepwalking in movies, I was like, Okay one person has ever had is that actually like common stuff like that really happens to people a lot.

Dr. Jade Wu 21:41 It's not common, it's not common I off the top of my head. I do not know the prevalence, but I bet it will be less than 1% like far less than 1% in adults. It is not uncommon and children though. So I know that you have a four year old for example, it would not be super surprised. in a few years time, he has some sleepwalking episodes. And there's nothing wrong with that that does not predict sleep problems later on in life. children tend to outgrow these sleepwalking episodes and night terrors and things like that by adolescence. Sometimes I do see late teens, early 20s cases of sleepwalking or night terrors are really terrible nightmares. But usually there are some substances or mood disorders or other things involved there. So, long story short, you know, for kids, don't worry about it for adolescence, get it checked out for adults is very rare. definitely get checked out. But it's very, very unlikely to happen.

Nick VinZant 22:47 So when we go to sleep, Where are we going? Do we know what happens to consciousness like, do you do we know?

Dr. Jade Wu 22:56 Oh, that's a very interesting question. I think Think this question kind of assumes that there is a difference between the mind and the body. Am I right?

Nick VinZant 23:10 I just wonder like I'm asleep. But what's my brains not really asleep. So what's going on?

Dr. Jade Wu 23:17 Well, that part is correct your your brain is while your brain is asleep, in the sense that it's going through all of the processes, and it's exhibiting all the characteristics that we call sleep, but it's not turned off. So it's not like when you turn off computer or open a computer to sleep in a dormant state, right? It's like hibernating. It's not really on or doing anything, but our brains are actually quite active when we sleep. So there are different stages of sleep that do different things. But for example, like I said earlier during deep sleep, your brain is doing a lot of janitorial work and repair work. Releasing lots of growth hormones. If you're a young person, and another stage of sleep is called REM, which stands for rapid eye movement, sleep, and this is a very active stage of sleep is actually when you look at brainwaves during REM, it almost looks like someone's brainwaves when they're awake. And this is where your brain is doing a lot of editorial work. So it's taking snippets of information, whether it's, you know, information about, you know, knowledge that you learned or emotional things that you experienced, you know, movies that you saw interactions that you had, is taking all of these snippets that you gathered up during the day and trying to organize them, trying to prune them, you know, get rid of the ones that are not useful, retain the ones that are useful, make connections between disparate events to stitch it all together into a cohesive, cohesive whole All of this is going on while you're sleeping.

Nick VinZant 25:03 Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Dr. Jade Wu 25:07 Sure.

Nick VinZant 25:08 What is the best side of the body to sleep on back side or face down?

Dr. Jade Wu 25:14 Well, I wouldn't put your face directly into your pillow. Because that doesn't sound like it's good for breathing. And otherwise, if you don't have sleep apnea, sleeping in whatever position is comfortable, is fine. And you don't need to. Again, if you don't have sleep apnea, you can find yourself in any position of sleep, and there's no reason to correct it. If you're uncomfortable and change your position, if you're comfortable, stay put. Now I put in the important caveat of sleep apnea because this is a really, really serious breathing related sleep or a disorder where during sleep sometimes you stop breathing for 10 seconds or more at a time. And because your oxygen level drops, your brain wakes you up in order to breeze. So that means you're waking up a bunch during the night trying to breathe. Now this is a really serious problem because breathing is really important. And generally speaking, for people with sleep apnea, they tend to have less apnea when they're sleeping on their side, rather than on their back. So first of all, if you are a heavy snore, and if you're overweight, and if you're over the age of 50, and especially if you're a man, you should go ask a doctor about sleep apnea, chances are you have it.

Nick VinZant 26:38 What is the least amount of sleep one of your patients has ever had and operated normally?

Dr. Jade Wu 26:44 Oh, interesting. I think I'm remembering are we talking about on a consistent basis or are we talking about acutely because I've had people not sleeping All for a night and didn't find the next day. But long term, I don't think I've seen anyone sleep less than probably four or five hours consistently and be okay.

Nick VinZant 27:12 That's pretty much like that's the limit, right?

Dr. Jade Wu 27:15 When you really are generally speaking, I would definitely not recommend sleeping less than five hours consistently. If that's you, then you should definitely get that checked out.

Nick VinZant 27:26 What do you think about some of those, you know, weird or not? Maybe they're not weird, but some of those sleep patterns where, you know, I sleep for 20 minutes every three hours or something like that, that have been put out there from time to time. Is that really, is that a real thing? Like, could that really work?

Dr. Jade Wu 27:44 I will never say never, because there are genetic anomalies in almost any situation. However, I would definitely not recommend doing that. If your body is not well, let me let me say that again. I think I would definitely not recommend doing that. Because this is going back to the body clock. Once you're an adult, or even before you're an adult, once you're no longer two months old, you really should not be sleeping in little bursts of 20 minutes at all, because you should have a circadian rhythm you should have a body clock. And once your body clock is established and about the second or third month of life, that is the most healthy way of sleeping is to sleep mostly at night, and almost none during the day.

Nick VinZant 28:32 Should we take a nap is a nap good for you in the day.

Dr. Jade Wu 28:36 It depends if you're severely sleep deprived and consistently sleep deprived and there's no other way of getting you more sleep at night. Then certainly take a nap to make up for it. And I'm including teenagers and this by the way, almost all teenagers are sleep deprived because high school start way too early. Teenagers need about nine hours of sleep And their circadian clocks are biologically hardwired to be night owls. So really high school should not start until like 10am in my humble opinion so teenagers definitely take a nap if you can. People who are, you know, working night shifts, there are circumstances in which unmap could be very helpful. People who are long haul drivers take a nap, for sure take a nap. And otherwise, I would say don't go out of your way to take a nap unless you absolutely have to for safety reasons.

Nick VinZant 29:41 Can it be cumulative in the sense that like okay, what if I need seven hours of sleep consistently? Like that's more my average that's where I fit in. But I get five hours one night and nine hours the next night like does it balance out? Or if you don't get it, you don't get it and it's over with?

Dr. Jade Wu 29:58 No, it does not balance out, because this goes back to the circadian clock issue. If you're getting five hours one day and nine hours the other night, you're not sleeping on a 24 hour consistent pattern, or rather, your 24 hour pattern is not consistent from day to day. So lots of people do this, right? They sleep, not enough on weekdays because they have to get up really early for work. And then they try to make up for it by sleeping in for a few hours on weekends. So what you're doing is you're jetlag yourself. Like let's say you usually wake up at 6am on weekdays, but then you sleep in until 9am on weekends, and then you're back to 6am. On Monday, you just flew yourself from New York to California and back over the course of a weekend. And there was nothing to you know, make up for that jetlag that may even be worse than if you got on average, a little less sleep, but it was consistent all seven days.

Nick VinZant 31:00 One of the quirkier questions. How come we don't die in dreams?

Dr. Jade Wu 31:05 Ah, no, I don't know the answer to this question. That is a really fascinating question. And the, the one hypothesis that popped into my mind is that, generally our dreams are made up of at least little building blocks of things that we've experienced in real life. Often we do things like fly or swim underwater, and things are obviously not possible in real life. But we know what water is, and we know what flying is. So maybe we sort of put those together and we can create this new reality. But none of us who are dreaming have died because we're still alive. So we don't have any piece of that experience to contribute to the dream narrative. That's what I'm guessing that is not based on science at all.

Nick VinZant 31:53 That makes a lot of sense. It's actually a fantastic answer. Right? You always experience something that you have experienced before. It's never something new Dr. Jade Wu 32:02 We can't say colors that we haven't ever seen. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 32:08 I read something one time and maybe this is your area maybe it's not but that the brain cannot actually create anything new. It can only take things that is seen before and combine them in new combinations. But it can't straight up create something new.

Dr. Jade Wu 32:24 I believe that I would say it cannot create any new sensory sensory experiences. You know, like we can't see colors we haven't seen we can't hear pitches that we never heard before. And we probably cannot dream death because we don't know what that feels like.

Nick VinZant 32:46 single best thing we can do for our sleep. single worst thing people are doing for their sleep.

Dr. Jade Wu 32:53 Oh hmm single best thing Just because I'm on a circadian kick right now, and I really want to get up on my circadian rhythm , the single best thing you can do if you're asleep is to keep a consistent wake up time. That's like dropping an anchor into your 24 hour cycle that keeps you in line that keeps your body functioning on that 24 hour cycle. And the more consistent you get, the better you'll sleep, the better you'll wake. And the better you'll do pretty much everything. single worst thing you can do for your sleep is to not get your potential sleep apnea checked out.

Nick VinZant 33:38 Is an alarm clock a bad thing?

Dr. Jade Wu 33:41 No, no alarm clock is great because it keeps you consistent in the mornings. Really, I would think that it like pops you out of some cycle or something. It's actually not terrible to pop out of a cycle. I mean, sleep is not built to be this rigid set in stone machinery where you have to Do it in exactly the same way. Or else sleep is actually a very dynamic and very adaptable state of being because if you think about it, our ancestors, they couldn't just drop dead into sleeping like a log for eight hours and not wake up, right? They had to be able to be routed out of sleep if there was a predator around or if they got too cold or they got too hot. So, you know, these the, your awakening during the night is actually not a bad thing. This is natural stopgaps that your brain has built in to make sure that conditions are still good, and you're still safe. And in fact, I would hear let me ask you this. How many times do you think a healthy good sleeper wakes up during the night on average?

Nick VinZant 34:51 I mean, I would say I probably do it two times. Maybe but I would say like a healthy sleep would be none

Dr. Jade Wu 35:01 Okay, so interesting that you don't think you you have yourself as a healthy sleeper, but we'll talk about that later. So try 12 to 15 times

Nick VinZant 35:12 are you serious?

Dr. Jade Wu 35:15 Yeah, if you look at the eg, which is basically the brain, like a way of measuring brainwaves, if you look at the eg data of a full night's sleep for a healthy sleeper, you see, you know, all the different stages of sleep, you see the cycles of sleep, and you see like 10 to 15 awakenings. And that's very normal, but like fully awake or kind of a way, like their brain is fully awake, but they probably don't remember most of those awakenings because they're very brief. So they roll over, they fall back asleep, or maybe they get up to go to use the bathroom. So they vaguely remember getting up and then they roll around and go back to sleep. So it's healthy to Remember, probably, you know 123 awakening. So you're actually right on target with your two. Because you know, two or three or 112 or three, sort of more fuller awakenings that less a few minutes is totally normal. And then there's probably a bunch more brief awakenings that you don't know about that are also totally normal. If you had to pick one thing, what would you say?

Nick VinZant 36:29 Whether it's a disorder or it's something the brain the brain does or just something about sleep itself? What would you say is the single most interesting thing about sleep?

Dr. Jade Wu 36:45 Just that it happens, you know that for almost a third of our existence, we are in this interesting state of being alive and our brains are wired. Working in our bodies are working, but we're not conscious. Or at least we're not conscious in the same way that we are when we're awake. I just find that fascinating that this is built into biology that all complex organisms and some non complex organisms all have this thing that we do. And it's great, it feels great. That's what I love about sleep.

Nick VinZant 37:27 Could you imagine if we ever had something that could basically mimic all of the effects of sleep and we would have it completely normal, but we didn't actually sleep?

Dr. Jade Wu 37:37 Like we just stayed up our whole why's that would be so sad. Can you imagine that? That would be like you'd have no beginning or end to your day. It would be like a just a slog. Just there's there's no catharsis, it's like, like you hear one of those like EDM beats and the beat never drops last Like, that's how I would think of being awake for a really long time. And actually, I recently kind of experienced something like that because, as I said, I have a four month old. So, you know, as of, maybe a month or two ago, things started to get back to normal for me ish. But in the first month or two, I mean, I was around the clock I slept, but I slept in like two hour chunks, three hour chunks here and there at any time of day or night, just like my baby baby did. And that was really tough that first month felt like a year because the day never ended and I never felt refreshed. So no, if we had a technology that could mimic sleep that would make us feel that we don't have to I would not, I would not take advantage of that I would still do my sleep.

Nick VinZant 38:50 No, I wouldn't either. Um, that's pretty much all I got is what's what's coming up next for you. How can people kind of get ahold of you if they want to contact you?

Dr. Jade Wu 38:59 Sure. website is www.jadewuphd.com. So that's just my name, which is spelled j d w PhD comm I write blog posts I post on some of my podcasts episodes, which is the savvy psychologist podcast. I offer resources for sleep for both adults and children. And I show you some cool research I'm working on.

Nick VinZant 39:29 I want to thank Dr. Wu so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Elite Matchmaker Michelle Apples

Like a headhunter for the heart, Elite Matchmaker Michelle Apples helps people find love. We talk the key to finding the perfect match, dating advice, the best/worst dating apps and what men and women are really looking for in someone. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Soup.

Interview with Elite Matchmaker Michelle Apples

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Michelle Apples: Matchmaker

In this episode we talk about

• How do you become a Matchmaker

• How do Matchmakers find you a match

• What is the best dating app, what does a professional matchmaker think is the best dating app

• What is the worst dating app, what does a professional matchmaker think is the worst dating app

• What are men looking for in a woman

• What are women looking for in a man

• Dating advice from a professional matchmaker and dating coach

• Social media and dating

Nick VinZant 0:12 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're finding the perfect match and the perfect soup.

Michelle Apples 0:21 And then I started a job that was an events club for single people. So I started with that, and then just would match people up. And from there, they ended up getting married or I was part of proposals, and now a bunch of them have babies. Well, I think we live in such an instant gratification culture, where people are just trying to go on like 10 different dates with 10 different people in one week, and they're not really looking at one person in front of them. Because a lot of times I feel like you like the idea of someone but don't actually like the person. So that's the number one mistake I think women make. There's three things that a woman is looking for. When she's looking for a man and I think that's communication, I think that's affection and security.

Nick VinZant 1:06 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I think that everybody is basically just looking for love. Just looking for love. Our first guest helps people find love. This is professional Matchmaker, Michelle apples. So how did you become a matchmaker?

Michelle Apples 1:30 Well, I started into matchmaking actually, a few years ago, I was working mostly in events. And then I started a job that was an events club for single people. So I started with that and then just would match people up and from there, they ended up getting married or I was part of proposals and now a bunch of them have babies. So it kinda just fell into place. And then when I moved to Toronto actually knew a lady who owned a matchmaking agency and we reconnect After a long time, I used to do some modeling for her. And she and she had a job opening. So here I am as a matchmaker,

Nick VinZant 2:07 what makes you good at it, though? Michelle Apples 2:10 You know, I think I do have a gift of discernment. So I can tell a lot about the person without them saying a lot. So that helps a lot. But I think I've just had really a lot of relationship experiences not all good, but I've learned what not to do, because I've had a lot of head relationships. Or I've seen a lot of bad relationships in my life. So I've learned a lot of what not to do. Nick VinZant 2:33 Are you just matching like good people with good people, though, because I feel like, that's relatively easy to do. Like, what's harder is matching shitty people with shitty people. Is that, does that make any sense?

Michelle Apples 2:46 Yeah, I mean, it's definitely difficult because you're dealing with all sorts of personalities, and all sorts of like ranges of people from different, like avenues of life. So that's definitely hard, but it's really just getting getting to know people on a deeper level and knowing what they like made rather than what they want.

Nick VinZant 3:06 Do most people know what they need?

Michelle Apples 3:09 No. That's why it's my job to figure it out.

Nick VinZant 3:13 Why don't we kind of understand more about what we actually need and want?

Michelle Apples 3:18 Well, I think we live in such an instant gratification culture, where people are just trying to go on like 10 different dates with 10 different people all in one week. And they're not really looking at one person in front of them. So I think it's just that we want things right away. And we're not really willing to like have the patience and the persistence to like, go for the long run, right? When you match people, do they usually end up in a relationship that works when it's with somebody that they thought they would match with? Or is it sometimes the complete opposite of what of what they thought? Yeah, a lot of times it is the complete opposite where they're not sure about The person when I first send over, like their profile, and then I'm like, just give it a chance go out and see how you feel. And they end up being like, wow, that person was so amazing in real life. Or they'll look at someone and be like, I don't know, he's a couple years younger than me, and they'll go out and realize he's actually amazing person. So it's that Yeah, there's definitely a lot of that where people are very skeptical at first and then go out and realize they actually like what they think they didn't.

Nick VinZant 4:25 What are you looking for when you put two people together?

Michelle Apples 4:28 I think like, first off, I really look at like, are they wanting the same things like, you can't match someone with someone else and one person's looking for a relationship and other the other person's looking for something casual, it'll never work out. So I always look at like, are they both wanting the same thing? And if they are, then I look at interests I look at like who they are as people. My job is really a people job. So it's getting to know so much about them. Like I always say I become my clients best friends because I'm always gonna calling them I'm always asking them questions like our first meeting, I'm asking them things that you wouldn't ever ask someone the first time you're meeting like past relationships, like, give me all the drama that you've like been through in your life. So you get to know them on a deeper level.

Nick VinZant 5:14 So they're not just filling out a questionnaire, right, like you're actually going and having conversations and, like, personalized service.

Michelle Apples 5:22 So that's what makes matchmaking so different than like going on a dating app, as I'm getting to know you as a person as as an individual. So I'm able to personalize the service to you and what you're looking for and your character and personality rather than like, hey, just fill this out. And I'll like, try to find

Nick VinZant 5:40 What's your typical client like is your typical client who comes to you as a man? Is it a woman? Are they wealthier, average? What are they like?

Michelle Apples 5:50 I think this is the thing that surprises most people is it's such a variety, whereas like, my youngest client is 29. My oldest client is 67. I both male Some females, most of them are on the wealthier side or more successful side because of our service prices, and they're not cheap. So we are dealing with more elite people than not, but that, that being said, it's not close, I'm not closed off to working with someone who doesn't have that status. It's just usually someone without that status isn't willing to pay that price tag for that service.

Nick VinZant 6:21 When we talk about a price tag, like what on average is that is the cost of a matchmaking service?

Michelle Apples 6:26 Yeah, I mean, it ranges by packages. So the lowest package you could get is 3000. You can you know, and then it customizes up up from there. So most people, you know, aren't paying $3,000 for a dating app sort of thing. So you're, you're really investing in it. And I think that's really what helps it work and be so successful though is because when people are coming to me and paying that amount of money for the service, they're actually investing in themselves and looking for something serious, you know, they're not, they're being really intentional about it. You know, they're not just throwing them there. picture and profile on a dating app, but they're not actually really looking for something serious.

Nick VinZant 7:03 When you're looking for a client's significant other. Are you looking only within like your client database? Are you like walking around at restaurants, so to speak, like, oh, that person looks good.

Michelle Apples 7:15 Yeah, I kind of do all of the above. Whereas we collaborate with a lot of other matchmakers, which I think is really unique is we're not, they're not my competition anymore. We're just collaborating, which is really cool. But also, like, I'll go to networking events, I'll go meet people. I'm such a social person myself. So I've had clients where I've been like, Oh, I actually dated a guy, but I like it didn't work out for me. But I think YouTube would be perfect together and set them up with guys I've went out with in the past or just met people at different networking event. And then we have a huge database as well. So it's kind of like I'm like a headhunter for the heart. So I go out and I find it in any way I possibly can.

Nick VinZant 7:56 What quality Do you think that two people have to kind of share

Michelle Apples 8:00 Oh, that's a good question. I think, I think it's just you have to go into it with the right intention. So, being intentional is like a quality that I would say, like going and looking for in a relationship. That's what needs to happen. Because if one person's too casual and the other person's intentional, it's gonna fall apart. Or it's like you both have to want it enough to actually put the work and effort into it.

Nick VinZant 8:25 How many times though in like your matchmaking, have you made what you thought is a really good match, but then the people just blew it

Michelle Apples 8:33 It's happened a few times for sure. I don't know, like a specific number. But yeah, you just never you never know how people are going to connect or like I do find right now. It's such a sensitive time in our world where it's like, people are very offended over a lot of things. So it's like you kind of have to be careful in that sense, because someone might say something that offends the other person. And so people are very easily offended these days.

Nick VinZant 9:00 How quickly should someone know if this is gonna work out or not?

Michelle Apples 9:03 I'd say like date two, I would say like the first day everyone's trying to put on a like good impression or they're nervous or something. I always say if you're curious, then like, go on a second date and see if you're like, absolutely not. That was the worst experience of my life then don't. So, you know, I would say if you're curious at all, give it a shot. If it's a definite No, like, nobody wants to waste their time going out with someone that they know, it's never going to work out.

Nick VinZant 9:31 What is the most common mistake that men make? What's the biggest mistake that women make?

Michelle Apples 9:38 I'd say the biggest mistake that women make are is they overanalyze everything right away. Like they get so invested so fast, whereas like, I have clients that have been on like one or two dates, and they're just like, all in their head about everything that's happened. And it's like I would say, like the first day it's not, it's not like an interview to get married. It's Interview just in case you want a second date. So it's like, relax, enjoy. Do you actually like this person? Like, don't go away with it and be like, Oh my gosh, like, I'm like, I'm overanalyzing everything in my head. It's like, no, go away. And actually ask yourself these questions like, did I even like this person? Because a lot of times, I feel like you like the idea of someone but don't actually like the person. So that's the number one mistake I think women make. And I think for men, the number one mistake they make is they want all the options instead of looking at what's in front of them. Whereas like, all Macs, have like a man up with someone and they'll be like, send me more profile, send me more profiles, and I'm like, No, like, concentrate on what's in front of you. And then we'll move on if this doesn't work out. But I think like you can't be effective in 10 different places at one time. So you need to concentrate on what's in front of you if you actually want a serious relationship.

Nick VinZant 10:54 How do you get the guys though, to just basically look beyond what the woman or the whoever they're Looking for looks like

Michelle Apples 11:02 I like, I think like, it's building that trust with clients. So I have a lot of male clients that now trust that I've actually done the work to know who this person is. If I say, Hey, I think there's something there. I think like, they are a good catch for you, they'll usually trust it and go for it. But I think that it's hard because you're looking at a profile and I think, you know, it's just like online dating a picture only says so much, right? You can meet that person a, they might not look like their profile picture. They might not have a personality. Whereas like, I learned that lesson so so early in life, or I was once like obsessed with this guy for so long. And then I went out with him and he was like, the biggest dad I've ever met. And I was like, I wasted so much time thinking that this guy was so attractive and there was nothing else there. So I titled it, like help them understand who this person is and the character and why I think they would fit together better.

Nick VinZant 11:59 Is it easier Now or is it harder than it was a couple of years ago because of technology essentially?

Michelle Apples 12:05 Oh, I think it's definitely harder. I think that there are so many options out there. And so people always like, what's the next best thing? Is there something better out there? Like, I don't want to settle for this, because maybe the next one might be better. So it just makes it this just a rat race. So like, trying to find the best thing and knowing that there's so many more options still out there.

Nick VinZant 12:28 Have you ever had somebody that you are just, I can't look buddy, I can't do anything for you.

Michelle Apples 12:32 I definitely have like, I, I can always do something for you. But it's whether or not I think you're going to be successful at it or not. Or if I do have clients where I'm like, what you're looking for is not what you need. And it's this is never going to work out long term because of what you're asking me and the criteria that you've set. So I try to coach them but you can only help people who want to help themselves. So a lot of times they will appreciate it. But they won't take it and that's fine. We'll work together as long as your contracts up but like, you know going forward Other than that, I can't do much for you.

Nick VinZant 13:09 Is there really someone for everyone?

Michelle Apples 13:12 Yes, I think that there is someone for everyone but I think it's like not having this crazy expectation or this small box of what that person has to be. Where's like I think like, you know, even my past relationships sure I could have made them work but I didn't want to make them work or like they didn't feel right for me. But I think like you can you can find someone but I think you have to look at yourself first and realize like, hey, am I putting this like box around people whereas like people are real people are flawed people are human, and especially with technology these days and social media and, and how everyone looks so perfect and flawless. Well, that's not reality. So it's like realizing that people are real and flawed and like you're not going to ever have a perfect person.

Nick VinZant 13:55 So I always thought this was interesting. I don't remember if I made this up. I read this somewhere. But it's basically like this 80% rule that if you present a guy with a woman or a significant other, that's 80% of what they want a guy would be like, oh, wow, that's a great catch. But if you presented a woman with 80% of what she wanted, they would not think that that's that they could do better. Is that? Is there any truth to that?

Michelle Apples 14:22 gently? I definitely think that I find women more pickier than men. Like I've worked with both females and males. I do find women are way pickier than men. So I feel like men, yeah, if you have most of the criteria, they're usually pretty good. I mean, I definitely have some pickier clients that they're like, nope, 100% criteria. That's all I want. But yeah, with women, I think like they look at such small details. Whether it's like, oh, like for example, I was on a call with the client this morning. And she's like, Oh, he's he's younger than me. I've always dated older men. I don't know about this. And I'm like, but you just texted me this morning. said how amazing and good looking he was and how much how comfortable and natural it felt on your first date. And you're really going to risk that by having the wrong perspective of, oh, he's a couple years younger than me, like everyone matures at different legs speeds, right? So it's like, he might be a couple years younger than you, but he might still be like, those guys that you're typically used to dating. Is it harder to match ugly people or beautiful people? and relatively speaking, right, relatively speaking, is it harder to match the uglier people or the beautiful people? I think? I don't think it's either or I think it's more so how picky they are. Whereas if someone comes to me and they are drop dead, gorgeous, they usually have a lot higher standards than someone who is more of an average looking person. That makes sense, right?

Nick VinZant 15:53 Have you ever had to basically crush someone's expectations though, like hey, this, you're not Not gonna you're not, you're a two you're not you're not finding a ten.

Michelle Apples 16:03 Yeah, I guess I know, like, because we deal with a lot of wealthier people. Like, I have older gentlemen that are looking for very young women. And it's like, Yes, I can get that. I know it's not going to go anywhere long term like you're expecting it to. But I can find you that and I can find you a 10. who's really young, but she's not after you for the right reasons. Yeah, that makes sense, right? Like a 75 year old is looking for a 10 who's 25 Yeah, that's not gonna. That's, I can find you that but you're not going to be satisfied long term. And it's not going to last long term.

Nick VinZant 16:43 Should a working relationship ultimately be easy?

Michelle Apples 16:47 I think easy is a bad word for it. Like I think that people need to go into relationships, knowing that they're going to be work and hard, like, work is never easy, right? But it's like How are you looking at this? Are you looking at it like it's work? Are you looking at it like oh, this is a challenge and I like challenges.

Nick VinZant 17:05 What is the most interesting quirk someone has ever had as a deal breaker like person cannot have green eyes or anything like that.

Michelle Apples 17:17 Hmm that's a good question. I don't know if I've had really like in like anything specific that was like an ordinary I think your typical like the number one deal breaker is probably smoking. But other than that, I haven't had like weird things like I've definitely had like a shorter males like very particular on like, the woman has to be shorter because they don't want to feel short and they're already quite a short person. But yeah, nothing out of the ordinary so far. Once I'll get that now that we've talked about it. Now you'll pick one up,

Nick VinZant 17:56 it's like they have to have one green eye and one brown eyes. Like what? I can't I can't help you, buddy. I can't help you.

Michelle Apples 18:04 I mean, once I, once I read a profile, and it was a new client coming on, and it was like her, the woman he's looking for has to have like her, her dad has to have a German background and her mother needs to have like a European back. And I was like, excuse me. So like, that was kind of weird. But, you know, once I actually talked to him on the phone, it was like not so much like that. It was just him trying to get the idea of what he was looking for across

Nick VinZant 18:32 what dating app is the best. Which one is the worst?

Michelle Apples 18:35 I would say in my personal opinion, I would say hinges the best. And the worst, you probably match.com

Nick VinZant 18:46 that's how I met my wife.

Michelle Apples 18:49 Yeah, that's so funny. I just feel like I have the weirdest people approach me on match.com and they're like, I just want to touch your hair. I just want to like and they'll message like five times if they want to touch my hair, and I'm like, Where's this weird?

Nick VinZant 19:05 See, but I guess this was in 2011. So maybe they changed it right? Yeah, some of them are kind of like, Whoa, plenty of fish was the one that always that seemed like the bottom row, right?

Michelle Apples 19:21 Yeah, it's funny you say that actually I was when I was doing more events. I actually threw the birthday party for the guy who owns plenty of fish. So it's crazy that that all just kind of happened in my life before I was ever into the like, dating matchmaker world. What?

Nick VinZant 19:38 What is the guy who starts a dating app like,

Michelle Apples 19:42 like he was pretty nerdy, like he had a game of thrones birthday party. So everyone was dressed up there was like someone dressed up in a big dragon costume and like, it was interesting. Like, I was like, wow, this is such an elaborate party, but you know, he was definitely like he had a very hot one. But he was more introverted. So yeah, it was interesting.

Nick VinZant 20:05 Who ruins more relationships men or women?

Michelle Apples 20:09 I think women just because I think that women tend to like overanalyze everything or get upset and not communicate properly. And I think communication is so important in a relationship. And if you can't just communicate your thoughts, rather than make up stories in your head, like, eventually, you're just going to drive yourself crazy.

Nick VinZant 20:31 Do the good ones get taken early?

Michelle Apples 20:34 Yes, and no. I feel like good guys. Like, a lot of women don't like them too good. But I think like the good like, like if they're good, but not in a sense of like, good, but like too nice, then then they usually get taken really early.

Nick VinZant 20:49 Yeah. I feel like those ones. That's what what is that? Like the compassionate protector? Right? Isn't that what essentially every woman is ultimately looking for? Do I know what I'm talking about? Or am I just making things up?

Michelle Apples 21:03 Yeah, I think there's three things that a woman is looking for when she's looking for a man. And I think that's communication. I think that's affection and security.

Nick VinZant 21:13 What do you think is the hardest challenge that people have to overcome in relationships?

Michelle Apples 21:17 I think it's just finding new rhythms. Like you're, you're making a life with someone that is so different from you, right? And it's like, being able to really vibe with that person and, and just know that you're such such different people and to be able to like, not just accept that about that other person, but also encourage that because that's what makes them them.

Nick VinZant 21:40 What do you think is, is the most interesting part of your job?

Michelle Apples 21:44 I think the most interesting part is like really like, I feel like dating is so exciting to people you know, but also one of those things. It's a love hate relationship, like people love dating, but they also hate dating, because it is just like your time like finding rhythms with someone else and That's always challenging. I really love my job because it is such a painful job. I love people I like I love that the first interview I gonna ask you about your whole dating history before I even really know you.

Nick VinZant 22:11 Have you ever had some people that are just huge disasters? Just like oh my gosh, what am I gonna do with you?

Michelle Apples 22:19 I won't say no.

Nick VinZant 22:21 Makes sense. Unless I just had a lot of money like I would have definitely have to be really committed. And like everything else has not worked before I would turn to a matchmaker. Is that kind of how it works out?

Michelle Apples 22:35 Well, I think like, and again, I'm dealing with very successful people and people that have gotten to a certain level in their career, where it's like, I don't think the average person will go to a matchmaker but I do see that there's so much value in someone say that owns a company has 300 employees, they're not going to go just put their face on a dating app now because all their employees might see them on it and they have the reputation to maintain Or, you know, they or they have some elite status in the city and they don't want to just like, put themselves on a dating app. Right. So I think in that sense, it makes so much sense. Whereas like, yeah, if I didn't, if I had a reputation to maintain, I probably wouldn't go just throw myself on Tinder and hope that I don't see anyone I know.

Nick VinZant 23:18 Yeah, it'd be kind of weird if you were like a professional athlete on Tinder or a politician on Tinder, wouldn't it?

Michelle Apples 23:24 Exactly. So then they come to me instead

Nick VinZant 23:26 Now, do you deal with all sexualities? Or do you just specialize in certain ones?

Michelle Apples 23:33 Yeah, so we actually, I haven't personally worked with anyone other than male female relationships. That that's not me saying I would never but it's just not something that hasn't happened.

Nick VinZant 23:46 What do you do with your clients in terms of social media? Like do you tell them to scrub it? Do you tell them to clean it up? What do you tell them to do?

Michelle Apples 23:55 I think social media is a huge like, that's the first thing you do when you are about to meet someone is you look on social media and see who they are. So I definitely have a look and see like, the first thing we do is Google people and see what comes up. So it's like really hot. Like, I need to know that. Like, if someone if I'm going to match you with someone, they're not going to go on and be like, Who is this guy? What is he doing? Or girl, vice versa. I always tell people not to look up people in on social media before going out with them. I think it just takes so much away from dating. Because it's like you already know everything you need to know about this person you already have made up in your head, whether you're a year, you know, like low vibe with this person. So I always try to tell people like Don't, don't look them up if you can.

Nick VinZant 24:43 After a first date, though. When Can someone make like the friend requests the follow?

Michelle Apples 24:50 I would say wait a couple dates. Because again, you get like such an idea of someone and again, it's an idea where anyone can perceive themselves as anything on social media. Yeah. So do you really want to like go in and understand who this person is on a platform and then see them in real life and be like, wow, this is two different people or get to know them on a human level and then add them. So I would say like, give it a couple months and then have them.

Nick VinZant 25:17 Do you have any favorite pickup lines?

Michelle Apples 25:21 I don't really like pick apply. So no.

Nick VinZant 25:24 If you were to like, look at people, broad characteristics in terms of, they're nice, they're funny, they're kind. They're loyal. They're a jerk. Which broad characteristic of people is the easiest to find a match with which one is like the hardest one to find a match for?

Michelle Apples 25:42 I think the hardest would be like someone who's very introverted and stiff. Because like I've had clients where I'm just like, do you have any like non professional photos of you doing like, some sort of activity or something that makes you look like Like you're a little more fun and engaging because right now people are looking at you and saying he's an introvert. Now he All he has is professional photos. He kind of seems stiff.

Nick VinZant 26:09 Who's the easiest

Michelle Apples 26:10 I think like someone who's like a little goofy, because then you can you know, like going into it you can already be yourself.

Nick VinZant 26:19 Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have what is there anything else that you think we missed? Or what's coming next for you?

Michelle Apples 26:27 Yeah, just working away. I mean, COVID-19 has definitely changed the dating game. So just happened to readjust with all that and do a whole virtual dating thing and, and so yeah, just working through this pandemic that we're in and knowing that one day we'll be back to normal.

Nick VinZant 26:47 I want to thank Michelle so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Professional Bowlers Bill O'Neill and Sean Rash

With four major championships and nearly 30 PBA titles between them, Bill O'Neill and Sean Rash are two of the best bowlers in the world. We talk life on the PBA tour, bowling techniques, the best bowling alleys and the secret to trash-talking on the lanes. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Life Decisions that Always Come Back to Bite You.

Interview with Professional Bowler Bill O’Neill and Professional Bowler Sean Rash

Speakers:

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Bill O’Neill: PBA Pro

Sean Rash PBA Pro

Nick VinZant 0:11

Show Notes;

In this episode we we talk about:

• How Bill O’Neill and Sean Rash started bowling

• What makes a professional bowler good

• How much do professional bowlers practice

• Bill O’Neill and Sean Rash’s favorite places to bowl

• How much do professional bowlers make

• Professional bowlers share their best bowling tips

• Best bowling joke

• How many 300 games have Bill O’Neill and Sean Rash bowled

• What is the secret to being a good bowler

• Do professional bowlers trash talk

• Who is the best professional bowler

Hi everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're going bowling and then counting down the top five life decisions that always, always come back to bite you

Sean Rash 0:28 so you know, it's a way different life than another sports

Bill O'Neill 0:34 is it really really fine line between being really great and just being really, really good?

Sean Rash 0:39 So you become really good at something because of practice because of motivation because of confidence, where some people think is arrogance and cockiness. But in an individual sport, you have to have that

Bill O'Neill 0:53 Oh Kingpin is the worst. Yeah, worst. Yeah. Well from a bowling perspective, because it Just it makes us look so horrible.

Nick VinZant 1:03 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. I'm really excited about this episode. Because who doesn't like going bowling? Honestly, like even if it's something that you don't do that much, everybody still likes bowling. But the amazing thing that we learned in this is that what makes a professional bowler special what makes somebody really really good at it is so much different than other sports, because it's something that you can't really see even when you're watching it on TV. You don't realize what what one of the main obstacles that they're kind of going against is. Our guests for this episode, our professional bowler, Bill O'Neil and professional bowlers Sean Rash. They're both on the PGA Tour and they're both Some of the best bowlers that are out there. Real quick though the format for this episode is going to be a little bit different. We asked both bill O'Neil and Sean Rash the same set of questions in alphabetical order, you'll hear bill O'Neil first and then Sean Rash. What hooked you on bowling?

Bill O'Neill 2:19 It was kind of like how anybody really gets into anything really like I, when I grew up my my dad bold, my grandfather bold. A lot of my family were involved in it. So you know, I didn't really know that it was, you know, a niche sport until, you know until I was you know, probably in high school like I just did just what I did is what my family did so, you know, wasn't so much later in life that I realized how you know how rare it is to kind of, you know, be in the position that that I'm in now.

Sean Rash 2:52 You know, really bowling started back in Anchorage, Alaska. In my use days. My parents did it as a family activity. Kind of a night out for them. But then my my brother and I got involved in the ELD kids Saturday morning league. I got hooked on it pretty early, and then started following them to the bowling centers on Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday nights. And then I started bowling a junior league on Sunday nights with my dad a junior adult league and just became something like I said, a family activity and it was fun to do.

Nick VinZant 3:24 Were you good from the start?

Bill O'Neill 3:26 Um, yeah, probably. Yeah, I guess so. Um, you know, I guess in the, you know, my local youth youth leagues, I was probably always you know, kind of near the top and average at it at a young age and it you know, it helps when you have people in your, in your immediate circle that are that are good as well. They also are smart about, about the game so they can teach you so I, you know, I kind of had a leg up in that, you know, in that regard from the very beginning.

Sean Rash 3:51 I don't know if anybody's ever good from the start at anything they do. Personally, I think it takes you know, a lot of practice, a lot of dedication, a lot of money spent In hard work, but I was told I was a natural athlete, you know, hand eye coordination, I played baseball growing up as well. And probably could have pursued that if I had maybe lived in a different state other than Alaska. But you know, just something that I did every day. So you know, you got thousands of reps in practice in you, you learn a trade of skills and, and whatnot, and you take your talent with it and, you know, support goes a long wayas well.

Nick VinZant 4:31 Why are you good at it? Is it? Is there something about you physically? Is it a mental thing? Like why are you good at it?

Bill O'Neill 4:38 Yeah, hand eye coordination is really important. So I think like if you you know, most most bowlers are at least fair at stuff like golf. You know, the one of them the most accomplished bowler in the world is also one of the best horseshoe pitchers of all time, just because, you know, the same kind of idea, you know, with the with the hand eye coordination and you know, you find a lot of a lot of guys who can you know, there's a A lot of guys who played like high school basketball and you know things like that, especially with the you know that the hand eye coordination stuff but you know, you don't need to be you know, it's not the run fast jump high type of sport. So you're not you know, the the you know, and like brute strength doesn't really helping you. So it really is the really is the hand eye coordination stuff that is, you know, pretty important. I think every athlete in every sport has their different positives and negatives, right.

Sean Rash 5:25 So you become really good at something because of practice, because of motivation because of confidence, where some people think is arrogance and cockiness. But in an individual score, you have to have that, you know, because no one else was really cheering for you besides your family and the select group of close friends. Physically, I think as a kid, and even through my college days, and my first couple years on tour, I was stronger than most had a higher reverie, higher ball speed, and kind of overpowered things as I've gotten older and have dealt with injuries. I've had to learn from my path, you know the positives and negatives and learn from failure more than anything on how to be successful at an older age

Nick VinZant 6:12 On the kind of flip side about that, when when you look at like the best bowlers of our of all time, what separates them from you?

Bill O'Neill 6:22 That's a tough question because there's a lot of there's, there's just so many factors that go into it, like, you know, your, your, the way you like your natural ability, the way that you're that you just kind of throw it dictates a lot, you know, your ability to put revolutions on the on the ball, like how much you know, as people would say, you know, most people don't do what they refer to as spin. You know, that kind of the amount that you're able to put on there, the amount of torque you're able to create is very, very much natural. And so we're really, really hard to increase it. As you progress in the game to just kind of the way you throw is the way you throw it then you kind of tweak things here, they're so you know, people have certain games that you know, the way they develop, they match up certain arrows. You know, we have technological advancements in Bowling, like every other sport does. So things, things evolve and change. And, you know, there's a certain like, you know, some circumstance that would dictate to where people get, you know, whether they're great or just kind of like really, really good. And so that I think, like, kind of a long winded answer to your question, but it is a really, really fine line between being really great and just being really really good.

Sean Rash 7:34 You know, the biggest thing about I think the greatest of all times, compared to where I stand in our sport is the amount of majors I've won. I've only won twice and I say only one twice. I've been in position to win pride, a half dozen to a dozen more. I bowled for the title and all of them unfortunately lost in the title in the three that I'm missing. I have two of the five majors and You know, so you start looking at the greatest of all time like norm Dukes, Walter Ray or Anthony Jason Belmonte. p. Weber, they have, you know, multiple majors 810 1213 you know, whatever it is, and they've dominated in, in certain areas as well. So Jason has dominated over the last decade. And then I would say followed by myself, ej tackett. And now I anytime soon as probably had the best, you know, next couple of decades, so to say. And quietly Bill O’Neill had a resurgence over the last couple years where he's, you know, him and I have very similar resumes. Since we've came on tour. Again, you know, I can go into any event thinking someone's better me, you know, when you have a dominant run, and I've had a couple of them. I had a really good run last summer in the summer swing through the fall with the US Open and winning in China. I just, you know, you walk into a building and you go, Man, I'm gonna make this cut. I'm gonna make this And anything can happen then. And there's a couple guys that are going through that right now where they have a mental edge over others where they go oh, we're not being him this week we're bowling on his favorite pattern

Nick VinZant 9:10 How many hours a week on average are you putting into it between just practice practice in any kind of physical training?

Bill O'Neill 9:17 When I was when I was just starting out I was younger like, you know, late teens early 20s, mid 20s and I was just trying to get my feet wet you know professionally and I was I was competing and bowling a lot I was I was in the bowling centers every day practicing and you know, several hours a day bowling because you know, there's just a lot of different aspects to the game that most people don't know you have to really be able to change your speed vary your angles, understand how to like slightly increase in disk in decrease your you know, your reverie which is the you know, the amount of spin you put on it. Because the the way the environment is it's they put oil on the lanes, and He put it on the lanes in different volumes in different ratios, different shapes to make it easier or harder to you know, to strike. So you have to be aware of all those things and be able to alter your game.

Sean Rash 10:12 So in the beginning, I was putting in a ton of time now that you know I'm in my late 30s now and I understand the game at a pretty pretty high level, I understand my game. So I've you know, in order to preserve my body and be able to do it for a little bit longer, I've slowed down the practice a little bit. But, you know, I still when we're in season, we bowl a ton and then you know, when I'm getting ready for the, you know, for the start of the tour again for like, you know, probably six weeks beforehand, you know, I'm in there three, four days a week for a couple hours. Well right now, I'm going to tell you that I'm not gonna throw a bowling ball for probably the next month. I've been home a week so I'll give it very another three weeks but because of the injury to my lower back, when I stretch and rest and in try to work out at certain ways to strengthen it. We don't have anything currently coming up either to compete in that unless something from the PVA miraculously shows up in August and September. So our next season is the PBA league into September as of right now. So, about three weeks prior to that.Basically the first of September roughly, I'll start getting all my bowling balls in order, make sure I have an arsenal between you know, 10 and 20 bowling balls that I want to travel with and I know what they do from top to bottom, what hooks more what hooks less in, start going after, you know, three, four or five games a day. I'm not a real long practice guy. I'd rather stretch and throw shots in a quality type way. Like a half hour 45 minute practice guy and I'm done. And that incorporates shooting spares. You know playing different parts of the lane and throwing different bowling balls and and make it make it be done with it. I feel like sometimes you can practice too much

Nick VinZant 10:33 when you look at somebody who's just like a really really good local player or a college player how much difference is there between them and you?

Bill O'Neill 12:12 pretty big difference you know you have different physical tools that that separates the pros from just your regular league bowlers. You just you know there's so many so many people that bowl that are like over like say like a 215 average in your local league. They're able that they have honed it on like one skill that they're that they're good at and they're able to you know, they stand in a certain spot they you know, their their axis rotation is the same their speeds the same that it never changes but for us as professionals You know, we've gotten really really good at doing you know, four or five different things and changing angles and speeds and rotations and things like that and that's really what what separates the good league bowlers from from the professionals. is, it all really comes down to the patterns, you're bowling on the competition that you currently have,

Sean Rash 13:08 You know, so I bowl a recreational league on Tuesday nights at Parkside lanes with my wife, and my brother and some really good friends. And we do it for fun, but we're also very competitive. But when we're bowling on the recreational pattern, my wife can beat me. You know, I can have a night or I can just go nice, very nice, very nice, very nice burn, she can throw a six or seven bagger and my friends can beat me that I will leave with on Friday nights where they can just string a bunch of strikes because the blame pattern is so forgiving. You know, people strike a lot and they won't 250 to 300. So but when we get on to the PBA patterns that are a flatter ratio, it comes down to repetitiveness, so I'm way more accurate than most I should say pros and myself are way more accurate than the recreational bowler where, you know, we're hitting our target way more often, and asking for so much forgiveness when they see it for recreational patterns. So on a recreational pattern, even I can go bowl, we're both going to be able to 30. And I would probably do it for how many games we both for and you're going to do it for, you know, 678 games out of 10. I'm going to do probably nine out of 1010 out of 10 all the time. Now we go on a PVA pattern, you're going to go to 30 but it's going to be one out of 10 times I'm gonna do it seven or eight out of 10 times depending on what the pattern is

Nick VinZant 14:42 to correct me if I'm wrong but the the oil basically on the lanes dictates kind of how the lane operates.

Sean Rash 14:49 That is true to some ex tent. There's also a thing we call topography. It's a lot like golf, right. So if you saw my beef with Max home on Twitter recently, we're going back Back and forth about the differences in golf and bowling and in our sport we play on an invincible field, right they put oil pattern down on the lane, but we have no idea what it's going to do. Now sometimes they'll give us and most of the time they'll tell us what the pattern length is and the shape of the pattern. But the lane topography itself will tell you what part of the lane price should be playing in as the lane pattern does as well so every time you throw your bowling ball, the lane changes it doesn't matter if you're right handed or left handed the oil you know transitions from front to back or goes on your bowling ball and soaks in. The one thing I always joke around with golfers is it's always 72 degrees inside and we're not worried about wind and rain but we have those events outside that we've dealt with the the outside elements, but you know it's there's so much into it. The bowling ball you throw itself has a core in it and a cover how it's drilled. It's gonna go longer hook earlier if service on it makes it hope sooner if you can polish on it makes it go longer. You know you're playing first arrow and everybody on your players playing fit there. Oh, there voluntee 15 you're going to 10 then you probably should change part of the lane.

Nick VinZant 16:12 When you're in a competition one lane be different than the other.

Bill O'Neill 16:17 Oh certainly. Yeah, all the time. It's because of a couple different reasons you're, especially for us we bought one game on a pair of lanes and then the next game will move to another one. So it's can be determined by who is on the pair in front of you, you know, you have a lot of different you know, if you have guys who have a really really low rep right in front of you, they're not going to pull as much oil off the lane but if you follow a bunch of guys who have a lot of freight, they're gonna pull a lot off. So you know, that can really affect the way you know how your ball is gonna react to the lane.

Nick VinZant 16:48 Can you tell like immediately as soon as the ball leaves your hand if that's a strike or not.

Bill O'Neill 16:54 I will I will know if I if I throw it good or not. If I throw it physically good. But like you know as explaining it's the environment is is invisible so can make you make your best educated guess of where you're supposed to stand and throw it and you can make the perfect shot and have a really imperfect result because you were you know you were standing in the last spot

Nick VinZant 17:18 we got a bunch of listener submitted questions and Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions? Of course, what size ball Do you use and why? Bill O'Neill 17:30 So the maximum you can go is 16 pounds I use and most professionals and most people who bowl leagues will use lose 15 pounds you know, it's a forever we use 16 everybody use 16 but the balls got so powerful that the deflection wasn't nearly as great with the with the powerful balls so people took the you know, one less pound to kind of, you know, avoid the extra weight in the event. You know, the thousands of shots that we throw, you know, that extra pounds Over time can can cause some some injuries.

Nick VinZant 18:02 So that's something that were like I immediately get it. And then I think about it, and I don't get it. So what's like the difference between using a 14 and a 15? And a 16 pound ball besides the weight? Like what's the, what's the what's the point there?

Bill O'Neill 18:17 So when you when you when the ball hits the pins, you want it, you want it to drive through the pins, you don't really want the ball deflecting so when you like, it's like so if you see like, you know, if you go and you're bowling recreationally and you see like young kids and they're throwing like six or eight pound balls, when they hit the pins, they immediately fly towards the gutter, because they're just reflecting on you know, the pins way. Something like three and a half pounds. So you know, when you have an eight pound ball hitting those pins, they deflect off until like when you get to a point where you know, 14 is probably the minimum that any competitive bowler would throw in B, it's because if you just don't you don't want that much deflection, you won't have as much drive to get to the pins in the back. Sean Rash 19:04 What size ball I would tell you is what weight. So you have six to 16 pounds, I threw 16 pounds all the way up to 2015 2016 season. After I injured my hand, in Dallas, the US Open, I had to drop weight to 15 pounds. really didn't notice much of a difference, but I use a 15 pound ball.

Nick VinZant 19:28 what is your best average Joe tip like average guy, you're going to give them one tip that's going to help them become better What do you got?

Bill O'Neill 19:37 So what I see all the time with with people who are just, you know out for a night of fun, what they they they try to overthrow the ball with their upper body too much. And that's where the inaccuracy comes from and trying us ends up in the gutter a lot because when you're whipping it around your body, it's impossible to repeat. So if you watch anybody who's you know Over 180 average bowler, they're using their legs to create the power so it's a you're kind of walking by the ball instead of pulling it behind you. And that would be the you know that the thing that separates anybody who does it and people who don't is that you just try to, you know, muscle it when you try to take, you want to try to take as much muscle out of it as as humanly possible.

Sean Rash 20:23 Well, it's kind of like a three kind of tip process, right? You got to have good balance. every athlete has great balance in every sport, you need to follow through towards your target. So it doesn't matter if it's first arrow, third arrow for there, whatever it is, and then you need to hit the one in the front, on your first ball or a second ball depending on whatever it is. Those are kind of the three things that recreational bowlers we try to teach them more than anything is great, bounce, follow through. hit your target hit the one of the front,

Nick VinZant 20:52 favorite place to bowl least favorite place to ball.

Bill O'Neill 20:59 I like traveling I really like getting around around the world.I like I like bowling and I believe we'd be bowling Japan like at least like once a year. And that's a cool place to go. It's just such a different cultural experience to what you know to what we do here. So I always find it really, really interesting and fun and I enjoy being over there I think must say my least favorite place finally have any like, I guess it would be depending on the time of the year sometimes you know, we'll bowl in Houston sometimes in July and it's very sticky and hot and I like that or I've been to Scandinavia in January, those would be places I was. I would try to try to avoid just simply because of the weather.

Sean Rash 21:39 Oh, favorite place the bowl over the last decade. Realistically last three or four years has been Shawnee, Oklahoma. I've won three times there since 2013. I've had a lot of success in that building a shop 302 89 to win this year in January. Another place would be South points original Bowling Center did a lot of dominating the World Series of bowling back in 2010 1112. It's not my least favorite place the bowl, but my ball doesn't strike there a whole lot and that's in Columbus. It's one of my favorite places to go because my mother's from that area. The owners Wayne and alien Webb are some of the best proprietors we have in our sport. But I do not go well in that building. I've had some moments, but it's a it's a tough place for me to go to.

Nick VinZant 22:33 Is it a comfortable living? like can you make a pretty good amount of money doing this?

Bill O'Neill 22:38 I mean, I guess that that question is relative to what people think is a comfortable living.Yeah, I mean, it's I I'll answer it this way. I it's the only job I've had for 15 plus 15 years. I don't have a secondary source of income. Yes. I mean, it's you know, there isn't a ton of guys in my in my situation. I've been fortunate to be you. No at the at the, you know, in the top 10 or 15 for, you know, 15 years. So there's a lot of guys who have like, operate Pro Shops in their downtime. But for me, it's been mostly, you know, all bowling stuff the last 15 years.

Sean Rash 23:17 For a handful and 10 guys it is the guys that are really good with their money I've not I would have been very good with mine where I started some, you know, set accounts and IRAs and stuff for kids and college funds and stuff like that. But we've had some guys that have made millions of dollars, not a whole lot, you know, three, 4 million a couple million here and there or missing a zero maybe two zeros compared to every other sport in when it comes to earnings.

Nick VinZant 23:45 That's a fair way to look at it. Right. I mean, I guess when I think about it in terms of major sports, maybe right below tennis, in terms of growing,

Sean Rash 23:56 we're way below tennis.

Nick VinZant 23:58 Really.I mean, I think See you guys on TV though all the time.

Sean Rash 24:02 Yeah, just yet. But so our number one player in the world currently right now is Jason Belmonte. He's one of them. ej tech and Anthony simonsson. Myself and a couple others, you know, top five top 10 Jason has made right around 240,000 I think this year on tour, I can look it up here real quick. I've made between January and March I made 45,000 roughly and I just made another 40,000 in the last few months during some special events and finals of stuff. So I've made almost 100,000 this year, which is great. You know, I also have some sponsors that help pay me but I pay all of my expenses and nobody else does that. You know, you go play a golf tournament. Those guys are not paying for golf.They own injury feats. We have entry fees. We have hotelYou know, so we have, you know, we have our expenses, we have to offset as well.

Nick VinZant 25:05 Do bowlers talk trash to each other? And if so, who's the best trash talker?

Bill O'Neill 25:11 Oh, certainly, yeah, certainly.It's tough because a lot of us are friendly. And I think that's something that hurts us, especially on television. Because we all travel together, we're all we're all kind of next to each other all the time because we compete in the same events and it's hard to to create those kind of like rivalries because we're all kind of friendly. It's different than team sports, where everybody's separated, you're just kind of hanging out with your team. So, but we do certainly, you know, give each other at least at the bare minimum, give each other you know, really, really hard time and, you know, we never let anybody slide on something that they do that's, that's, you know, stupid on the lanes for sure.

Nick VinZant 25:52 If it's, you say it's you who's probably the best bowling trash talker.

Bill O'Neill 25:58 It's always the people who are Good obviously it's uh you know Pete Weber has been really good for a long time the guy who's the best in the world right now Jason Belmonte. He's He's pretty good at it because it's easy to be the one doing the doing the trash talk when you are beating people that say it doesn't resonate as much if you're, you know, if you're a middle of the pack type of guy.

Sean Rash 26:20 We should do more of it. I think we'd we create more rivalries for fans to think there's rivalries it would show some different sides of people. Some of the best trash talkers on tour though are guys like Stu Williams. Chris Barnes is a real real quiet Tommy Jones Do you know SEO there's a few more in there but those guys they've got the great one linersand he just never see it coming.

Nick VinZant 26:52 What number would I have to bowl for you to be impressed?

Bill O'Neill 26:57 Oh, there's no number. Yeah. I've seen the best and the worst of all types of people throughout life. So nothing really nothing at this point really impresses me or I don't, you know, because I will get from people when I show up at the local Bowling Center practice. They're like, I'm nervous to throw the ball around you. I'm like, I don't care what you do. Like there's nothing that you're going to do that's going to like, make me think I go like this guy shouldn't be around here because I've seen it all.

Sean Rash 27:27 Well, I'd have to watch you bowl first. To actually gauge what kind of bowler you are. You know, like, I've never seen you throw a bowling ball before he told me he averaged 130. And he threw a couple shots. And I would be like, well, it's full, you know, be full of us. He would tell you, you know, you're 181 90 average bowler, but then he said you ever see 38 throw club shots and I go, okay, you're really full of it, you probably only averaged 180.

Nick VinZant 27:58 how often will you bowl a 300 game?

Bill O'Neill 28:06 Well, I don't, I don't bowl much in leagues anymore. So that's where you'll find a lot of the higher scores because the you know, like I was explaining about the the oil on the lanes, you know, there's a, there's an angle that you need to achieve to maximize the chance of striking. So when you can put oil on the lane to make it like almost like tracks where they just like, direct the ball right into the right into the, you know, into the pocket to where you're, you're just maximizing that chance to strike. And so when we go on tour, the lanes aren't oiled like that. So it makes a lot harder. So I usually I'm probably about a couple of year, maybe at this point

Nick VinZant 28:46 best bowling movie or TV show worst bowling movie or TV show.

Bill O'Neill 28:53 kingpins the worst. Worst, yeah. Well from a bowling perspective. Cuz it just, it makes us look so horrible. It doesn't really represent what it is that you know what we do or how we approach it. It's just a you know, it's just a movie that perpetuated all the bad stereotypes about about bowling so I hate absolutely hate that movie. How many other bowling movies with there being it?

Nick VinZant 29:25 I guess The Big Lebowski

Bill O'Neill 29:27 Lebowski but that was that I think I've only seen it like once a week was that really like a big wasn't really like a bowling movie though? I don't know. there really hasn't been a whole lot of movies about bowling, but I guess if I had to choose or certainly be thinking about

Nick VinZant 29:41 who is the best celebrity bowler that you've been around?

Bill O'Neill 29:47 Mookie Betts baseball player replaced with Dodgers He's the best. He actually competed. In a handful of our events. He actually bought a 300 game one of our events a few years ago. He He's exceptional. He would you know, he's somebody who could if he, you know, obviously wasn't one of the best baseball players in the world he could have potentially ended up on you know, bowling professionally. He's He's that good but there's some other guys who were who were who were good. Terrell Owens is pretty good. Jerome Bettis has bowled three hundreds before as funny as the best celebrity bowler currently would be. Mookie Betts

Nick VinZant 30:30 is there like is there a couple other people that you'd be like all right. All right. Thank you go.

Sean Rash 30:34 No, yeah, there's a con. There's plenty of great bowlers a guy named CJ Anderson who was running back to the Broncos friend of mine. You know, golfers Mark Calcavecchia, and Woodie Austin senior golfers but definitely can bowl as well. He's not the best celebrity bowler but Chris Paul, the third unbelievable basketball player but he's got a huge charity event that has ran for years with the PVA called the Chris Paul celebrity challenge. You can you can follow in watch a bunch of things through YouTube but a guy can go a little bit. And he's brought hundreds of athletes and celebrities and people to this event through the years but definitely another good celebrity bowler

Nick VinZant 31:17 Best ball related joke?

Bill O'Neill 31:21 Oh, I mean, when I used to when I used to work in the Bowling Center, when I was younger, you know, I was in high school. People would always call was the constant running joke of like, the prank call to the Bowling Center would be, you know, I'd say hello, given the name of the Bowling Center, and they would say, hey, do you guys have a 14 pound balls? And I would say, Yeah, we do. And then they would say, oh, how do you walk and then hang up. So that was the that was the running prank. I call when I was when I was working.

Nick VinZant 31:51 I mean, I bet that got really annoying, but that is pretty good.

Bill O'Neill 31:55 I mean, after a while, I would just like I would, I would I knew it was coming. And I would just like switch managers up by, you know, one pound. And then they would be like, Oh, yeah, they just have they were just waiting for the they would just, you know, wait for the me to say yes to 14 pounds and then they would drop the joke

Nick VinZant 32:13 so that's really all the questions I got me and anything you think that we missed what's coming up next for you?

Bill O'Neill 32:20 Like everybody like everything else. We're pretty pretty shut down at this point we have a couple of events that we might be doing scheduled at the end of September. We have a team event that we do in Portland, Maine every year. That's supposed to be at the end of September But yeah, I mean, with everything shut down right now we're, we're pretty shut down. So so we're just kind of, you know, wait for things to clear up a little bit.

Sean Rash 32:42 Ye ah, so next right now, for me would just be the PBA tour finals are two or five that just concluded the PD two early in September in Portland, Maine, September 27, and eighth at Bayside bowl. Really excited about that. But there'll be some small things that could possibly participate in but my wife and I just welcomed our third little girl laying around on the world, June 29. So I'm going to be staying home as much as possible, helping the wife with the kids. You know, trying to stay away from, from COVID, of course, and trying to stay healthy. There's so much going on right now, as always, but I'm very, very fortunate to be able to take some time off here over the next month or so.

Nick VinZant 33:29 And then you've got you got a raffle coming up, too, right?

Sean Rash 33:32 Yeah, so, about three weeks ago, myself, the PVA SIBO 100 Global, have come together to put together an all expense paid trip that I'm paying for, for a fan and a guest to attend the TV league baseball in late September, which is basically our next event on the PGA Tour. So it's really cool deal something to give back. The best part about it. It's raising money for breast cancer awareness. Our our charity is the striking is Breast Cancer Foundation down in Houston, Texas. lady named Donna Connors put together this event 20 plus years ago and just really excited to be able to give back. That's one of the best things about our sport is the things that we've been able to do. So we're selling raffle tickets for $10 apiece, six for 50. And all the money is being donated to help fight against breast cancer. So really excited about that.

Nick VinZant 34:29 I want to thank Bill and Shawn, so much for joining us if you want to connect with them. We have a link to them on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included their information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. I have to say this. They are incredibly nice guys. Like just really cool guys. So if you get a chance, follow them support them. I mean, like I said, Who does it Like bowling.

Romance and Erotic Fiction Author Anna Lores

From wild nights with Werewolves to steamy scenes with multiple people, bestselling Romance and Erotic Fiction Author Anna Lores writes the secret fantasies her readers' crave. We talk sensual escapes, paranormal fantasies and Fabio. Then, a special attractive Top 5.

Interview with Romance and Erotic Fiction Author Anna Lores

Speakers:

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Anna Lores: Romance and Erotic Fiction Author

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, romance, erotic fiction and attractive men.

Anna Lores 0:25 your couple has to come together, even if it's many couples getting together at the end or a woman with five man or, you know, a man with five women, it doesn't matter. There's got to be that happy ending and it's got to be satisfying. You know, it is it's a tough industry, especially when people find out you write about sex in your stories. People can be really inappropriate, and you have to suspend a level of disbelief. With him being a werewolf, you know, it's like, I don't Anywhere we'll know anywhere we'll know. men cannot be perfect. women cannot be perfect all the time. But in your stories, they can be darn near it. And that's a great escape for a little while.

Nick VinZant 1:15 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance to like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So ever since I was little I remember going to stores like Walmart and places like that, and seeing these romance novels, and then you would see him people would be reading them in TV and movies. And I always just wondered who's writing these? And where are they getting these ideas? Our first guest is one of the authors who writes them. She's an international best seller that focuses on romance and erotic fiction. This is Anna Lores So did you read romance novels before? Or was this a That you kind of just jumped into.

Anna Lores 2:02 I'm an avid romance reader. And I was before I started this journey into publishing, but I have an English literature degree. So my background, his middle and Old English, so I translated and read, you know cuckoos of Old English and Middle English works, which really sparked my interest in the romance genre. I didn't understand what the romance genre actually was until I started writing it. I didn't know that there were all these rules that went along with it. That really, that really sparked my my love for romance and romance novels. And books and stories. So

Nick VinZant 3:02 what there's rules to it like what are them?

Anna Lores 3:05 Okay, so I didn't know this when I first started. They you have to have a happy ending, you have to have a happy ending. It's not a romance, unless there's a happy ending. The driving force of a romance novel is the couple and their relationship. So that's going to be the central driving force of a romance novel. If you're writing romance, you have to have those two things straight up. If you don't, you're gonna upset every romance reader out there. So, yeah, they have to, your couple has to come together, even if it's many couples getting together at the end or a woman with five men or you know, a man with five women, it doesn't matter. There's got to be that happy ending and it's got to be satisfying.

Nick VinZant 3:59 A man who has five women. I mean that does sound satisfying. Okay. So where do you get these? Where do you get the ideas?

Anna Lores 4:06 Okay. Well, you know, that's really interesting because I've got a couple stories on how a few of my story, a few of the novels that I've written and been published, came out. One is with a woman with five with three, three men. And it's called Ella's triple pleasure. And I was at my house. I was living in Memphis, Tennessee, I was at my house, all my kids ended up with the flu. And I had a, you know, it was awful. All I can say is, it was horrible. And my husband was traveling on for work. I was to come with three, you know, Sick Kids, and they finally got a law and I got on my couch and I thought, Oh my gosh, how wonderful would it be if I had a man Help me. And that's what sparked that story. It was just I was desperate. I was exhausted. I was every mom out there who had, you know, three kids with the flu or one kid with the flu.

Nick VinZant 5:15 So when you're looking at it like most people would maybe think the title is more from like a sexual thing. But you were just looking for some help around the house basically.

Anna Lores 5:24 I was and it turned into a sexual you know, in the story, because that's, that's what I was writing about. But it's sparked from just pure desperation of, wouldn't it be fabulous to have three guys helping me out at home, and then pamper me when the day was over? So that's, that's how that came about.

Nick VinZant 5:48 So is there a difference? Is there a difference between romance novels in erotic fiction, or is that the same thing?

Anna Lores 5:54 No, it's actually different there. You could have erotic fiction is is different than erotic romance. So I write erotic romance which ends with a happily ever after. And the story is about the couple. So it's got the romantic elements of a centralized story with the character's relationship. And then it's got a happily ever after. But it also includes sex in the bedroom. So your instead of the door closing in a novel that you might read from, you know, like a mystery or some other story and erotic romance, you walk into the bedroom or public room and you experience their sexual relationship

Nick VinZant 6:44 Do books have ratings. Can you only make it so? R rated or pG 13? Like how does that work?

Anna Lores 6:51 Well, erotica, it can be anything under the sun I mean, with erotic romance and erotica, the two things that they are that are the same or the steamy hot sex but there is not a day a PG rating. If it is considered a erotic romance or erotica, it pretty much automatically puts you into an over 18 category. So, you know, which makes sense. I have children, they don't need to be reading my books, you know, right now their lives. They wouldn't you know that, therefore adults. So Amazon has this special rating if you're if you are in the erotic romance, writing, you're pretty much not going to be shown to almost anybody. So you have to specifically search for that book. But if you there's a like 50 Shades of Grey has it's got an erotic rating, but it's also got a romance rating. So it is shown under contemporary romance as a lot of books, like I write are. So I have some that are more steamy that I have put it into the erotic category because I feel like that's where they should be. But a book like LS, triple pleasure or my paranormal series one night of love those have some sex in it, but not any more than you really more so then you would get in a contemporary romance. I mean, you might get a little bit more but it's, it's still in that adult range.

Nick VinZant 8:50 So how did you get started? What motivated you to kind of write the first one?

Anna Lores 8:55 Well, I I ended up with insomnia. It's, I've had it for about 14 years now. And I started reading. I read 400 to 600 books a year, at a minimum. Yeah. And I was homeschooling my children. So I was homeschooling during the day, I was reading most of the night. And my husband was like, why don't you just write your own book? Because I would tell him about these books. I'm like, I really, this is what I want to read. You know, he's like, just write one. And so I thought, I'm gonna give that a shot. And so I called a friend of mine, and I said, Who's, who's the big reader? And I said, I'm gonna probably write a lot of crap at first, but would you've read it and tell me what you think? And she was great. She gave me a really good feedback. I finally Got a couple of stories that I really loved. I ended up taking that encouragement, and then sending it to some copy editors that I knew, and some avid romance readers just that we all we all talked about books. And so it ended up being kind of like a book club of my books with my girlfriends. It brought me back to college where everything ended up being read on the page. And when I got the, the right story with the right characters, and it got picked up. It's been an interesting ride, but it all started with insomnia.

Nick VinZant 10:47 So when you write these novels, like what's the ultimate kind of goal behind them? Are you are you trying to arouse people? Are you trying to fulfill a fantasy or are you just trying to tell a good story?

Anna Lores 10:58 It's always The story for me, so it's the story and the characters. And I guess I'm an adult. So I write what I like to read. So when I am working through the characters, they fall into bed just like a normal couple would. Whether they're married or whether they're not married yet, there's something that drives them together. And usually the first connection is chemistry. So, that plays a lot into it. Am I trying to, you know, it's my, my initial goal always, oh, let's make this arousing. No, it's where are those characters? What drives those characters? What are their flaws? what? what pushes them into those, those places where they are together and what happens when it's their first time?

Nick VinZant 11:56 from the audience perspective, though? What is like what is most of the audience In smoking for, are they looking for the arousal for the fantasy story? Are they looking for kind of just to be entertained?

Anna Lores 12:07 I think for me, it's an escape for real life. And it's a central escape. So is there a sense? Yes, there is definitely a sense of arousal, but it's the story that makes it work. So it's the story between the couple and their relationship that makes that makes it arousing or makes it not arousing

Nick VinZant 12:30 what his family or friends said about it, right? Because you hear like, Oh, I'm a romance novelist. I'm an erotic fiction novelist. Is there a reaction to that? Or are people just kind of like yeah, and some people, you know, work as accountants.

Anna Lores 12:45 Yeah. But I my family does. They're like, my immediate family knows what I do. But yeah, my extent now. Just my like, my husband and my kids know exactly what Right about but outside that not so much I've got some friends. I've actually told a few people and gotten hate mail over it and it's been really weird to me. But I've also you know, but the fans are great. I got a great review the other day and it was you know, you get good reviews you get bad reviews you've been if you've been a writer long enough it's gonna run the gamut. You can't please everybody and that's okay. It's not every story is not for everyone. But a great review, like I got the other day is someone wrote, you know, I read this five times. I love this story. You know, it's like, wow, you hold on to those because you might get a, you know, a one and it runs the gamut with that with friends and family too. My family's pretty supportive overall of everything. They don't read my stories. They shouldn't, you know, my children don't need to be reading adult fiction like this and my husband is not a romance reader. You know, it is it's a tough industry, especially when people find out you write about sex and your stories. People can be really inappropriate at times, and you just kind of have to roll with it.

Nick VinZant 14:31 So between reading your book titles, billionaire 43, billionaire 44 Ls triple pleasure, curse to love. Which one is your favorite book title? Just the title itself like, Ooh, that's a good romance title.

Anna Lores 14:48 Oh, boy, I think one night of love. You didn't mention that one. But that probably is the winner. When I came up with that, I just was like, yeah, even now I'm actually looking at the cover of that book. I love that.

Nick VinZant 15:10 I love that title. So for people who are just listening to this, I'm looking at the book title one night of love. It has an attractive man and woman on it, and then a wolf in the background or the foreground. I get those confused. So he's a wolf. What's the deal?

Anna Lores 15:27 Is he and she doesn't know it. So she is just desperate to have a baby. Her husband is dying of terminal cancer and she's in denial. She goes, she's a massage therapist to the rich and famous. And she's in Las Vegas where people go to do things they would never do in their normal lives. And she hooks up with a wall. She hooks up with With a wolf unknowingly and then leaves, oh, no. And that's where things get crazy.

Nick VinZant 16:12 Just to be to be clear, it's it's a werewolf. It's not just a wolf. It's not that kind of thing.

Anna Lores 16:18 No (laughter) this isn't Greek Mythology?

Nick VinZant 16:23 So this is kind of my immediate reaction to that. It's right like, and just explain it to me the way it is. Like at one point, I think like, Oh, my God, that sounds so ridiculous. Why would anyone read that? And then the other part of me is like, Oh, that's an interesting story. Like, how do you balance those two things out?

Anna Lores 16:42 I think that is a great question.I think the story is within the balance, it is one of those where there's got to be a plausibility, you It's like Shakespeare, you have to be able to suspend your disbelief. And so you're reading about these two people. And you have to suspend a level of disbelief. With him being a werewolf. You know, it's like, I don't know, anywhere we'll know anywhere we'll go.Or maybe you do. I don't know if you do. Okay.That's the story itself is, is my own take on werewolf lore. So it's a little different than you would see and other stories. It's got a sexual take on it and the meetings, the mating ritual is a lot more intense and there are drastic consequences to being apart from your mate. And there's a I hope that the that it works with the storyline that her situation is so desperate that it's just plausible enough that you can suspend your disbelief with the other elements of the story.

Nick VinZant 18:20 best romance writing trope, worst romance writing trope.

Anna Lores 18:28 You know, I'm a fan of the billionaire's. So I'd have to say that's one of my favorites. Were for me personally, I am not a fan of theOh gosh, what is it called?Um, it's the one where the guys are jerks. They're just total total jerks. I don't know how to say that in a nice way.

Nick VinZant 18:57 Not like the BDSM stuff, but like the guys just a jerk

Anna Lores 19:01 yes there there is a romance trope where the guys just treat the women like total crap and the women just women just dig that. I don't even I just don't like that in BDSM you get the full range of a meal gut feeling billionaires PDFs you know, great guys total jerks you get it?

Nick VinZant 19:26 Is there like a section of the romance erotic fiction area that sells better than others like supernatural sells better than Western and that sells better than this or is there like a subset that people target the most?

Anna Lores 19:44 It varies actually, from year to year. So paranormal always sells. I mean, it always sells I love paranormal erotic romance and that's one night of blood. And kirsta love those two are both in that genre. Those always do well the billionaire series always do well. But it is up and down and it it depends historicals are huge historicals are huge. That's Yeah, the men in kilts. All those. Yes. Really? I just thought oh my gosh, yes.

Nick VinZant 20:32 What is it about the kilt? Is it the killed specifically or is it just like anything?

Anna Lores 20:37 It's just that genre of writing you've got, I think it's with, you know, royalty and there's this. There's the fantasy of, you know, being swept away, you know, by a Duke, you know, you're a lowly made or something, I don't know. And then if there's, I've read a bill And those books and I love. I love them.They're just fun. They're fun.

Nick VinZant 21:08 What is the best erotic line or best line that you've written?

Anna Lores 21:14 Nick I've written a lot of words but there are some times when I reread and I go Wow! I had a good day that day.

Nick VinZant 21:24 Is there one that you look back on though? You're like, Oh, that's that's a little cringy. Like I even maybe I even went too far there.

Anna Lores 21:38 No, I usually added this out. If I don't feel good about it.

Nick VinZant 21:42 How do you feel about Fabio?

Anna Lores 21:44 Oh my gosh, you know, he's an icon.And I love what he's done with his career and how he makes fun of himself now. I mean, he has been on a bus zillion covers. He was Mr. Romance. You know if you saw a book with his cover the you knew exactly what you were getting. He did a great job in branding himself. And then now that he's older, he's doing a great job continuing to brand himself and kind of poke fun a little at himself. I love those like, something about the butter. It's like the, I can't believe it's not. Didn't he do those commercials? Yeah. They were awesome. I would giggle over all those. So, you know, Fabio is one of a kind. And I I do enjoy Fabio.

Nick VinZant 22:50 Especially now that he's out there, who's who's kind of the heir apparent though is there a new man or woman that's kind of taken over that romance novelist cover roll.

Anna Lores 23:03 You know there's a guy Jimmy Thomas. He has been on hundreds of covers. He is pretty incredible. He lives in California. I think he's a weight training dude. And he seems like a No. Oh, yeah. He's got a good luck for it. Yeah, I just, I just

Nick VinZant 23:31 I just googled him. I'm now look, I'm a married man and like, Okay, I get it. Jimmy Thomas looks he definitely looks like he works out, doesn't he?

Anna Lores 23:42 He does work out. I think he spends his entire life at the gym.And that imposing so I actually saw him speak at a conference. And he seems like a, you know, a decent guy. So just seems like a normal normal guy. He definitely

Nick VinZant 24:01 you can see why he could get so many covers right because he could do multiple. He's kind of got like the supernatural look, and the kinda clean loo he's got a lot of looks.

Anna Lores 24:13 Yeah, he's got a lot of pirate looks too. I think he's been on a must have been on so many covers of historical romances.

Nick VinZant 24:23 Have you ever written something that made you blush?

Anna Lores 24:26 Yeah. Huh? Yes, I my husband, my head I write in my, in my bedroom. I have like, sectioned off. I've got a little divider. And my husband comes in and I'm writing fiercely on the keyboard and he's like, Oh, what's this?

Anna Lores 24:47 Like, oh, You're blushing. A naughty scene? I'm like, yeah, honey. Yeah, yeah.

Nick VinZant 24:54 I don't know what the follow up question for me. Should be All right, I didn't know if I should. I didn't know if I should keep going or if I should just drop that one.

Anna Lores 25:14 (Laughter) I think we can move on but it makes for an interesting life, that's for sure

Nick VinZant 25:19 I would imagine it does. Like what do you think though? What do you think is the the need for this? Like why do people kind of get drawn to these books?

Anna Lores 25:32 You know, from personal experience just, I can really only speak to my own and I think it speaks kind of to a certain age of women. The books that I write really appeal to women around 30 to 5560. You get to a point in your Life and it's just like any internet escape. These are not hard reads. They are. You don't have to work at them. You can pick them up, you know, enjoy an escape, enjoy reading about a very good looking man. You know, pleasing a woman and wanting to do all the things that are kind of unrealistic in real life. When you're married, you have life, you know, you've got kids, or you don't have kids, you've got dogs or cats or you're living alone and, you know, you're working. You're schlepping a job, you're, you've got all of these responsibilities and romance novels take you out of that. And I think that you know, I actually have a better relationship with my husband now that I'm a romance writer than I did prior to doing this. I talk a lot more to them are.And it's, there's a you know, knowing that I've got this book boyfriend to go, oh, wouldn't it be like I said, you know, with LS triple pleasure. Wouldn't it be wonderful if I had a three men to just do you at all? You know, that's not realistic. And men cannot be perfect. women cannot be perfect all the time. But in your stories, they can be darn near it. And that's a great escape for a little while.

Nick VinZant 27:52 Oh,that's a great answer. Um, that's honestly pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there any anything else like what's coming up next For you,

Anna Lores 28:00 well, I have three more stories and my fertile virgin short story books coming out soon my editor has them right now and she's working through them. And then I've got the my debut novels that I just got my rights back from the horseless series. That's going to be coming out in the next month or two. And then I've got I'm hoping to have two more of two more stories that no one has ever seen before come out by the end of the year, so I've got a lot to happen in. This is a big year for me. Big year.

Nick VinZant 28:49 I want to thank Anna so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and have also included links to her books. And to her website in the RSS feed that's on this podcast. I think that she said something really interesting at the end, because you hear some of these stories and like what the themes of these novels are about. And maybe you think it's this and maybe you think it's that, but who cares? If people like them, if it's an escape, let people enjoy themselves.

Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen

We're diving into the latest research on COVID-19. Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen joins us to seperate fact from fiction. We talk masks, immunity, death rates and an uncertain future. Then, John Shull joins us as we countdown the Top 5 Minor Injuries.

Interview with Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless

Dr. Angela Rasmussen: Virologist

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to talk about viruses and the worst minor injuries.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 0:24 It can transmit efficiently between people in the right circumstances and it can also cause disease in some of those people. And it's very rare that you find a virus like this particular virus that can do both of those things very well. And so that's when it becomes really dangerous. I'm very worried that in the fall, as people start getting sick from cold and flu season normal, normal influenza like illness, we're going to see this get even worse. So the politicization and the the steering away from evidence driven public health policy. See has been tremendously damaging.

Nick VinZant 1:03 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. Our topic today is an important one. We all know the impact that COVID-19 has had. And it doesn't look like it's going anywhere in the near future. So we wanted to have a guest on that could really give us from a scientific perspective, what this virus really is, what it does, and what the future is going to look like. Because there's just so much either on purpose, or by accident, misinformation and misconceptions that are out there. And I think that she just does a fantastic job in this interview, of clearing that up and focusing on what's really important and what really what we really need to do to stop this This is biologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen from simply like a virus standpoint, what's different about COVID-19? Like why this virus Why now?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 2:11 So this virus is we know about this virus family. It's not that different from other coronaviruses. It's mostly most closely related and most similar to SARS coronavirus, classic that caused a major epidemic in 2003. But it is a different virus. So it's not a completely new virus in the sense that we already knew that Coronavirus existed. We already knew that beta Corona viruses which this is a subset of those Corona viruses can cause disease, including severe respiratory disease like COVID-19 in people. But this virus itself is a member of that family that we had never met before December of 2019.

Nick VinZant 2:56 Was it just any new virus is going to do something like this or put could Potentially, or was there something specific about how it operates that allowed it to have the impact that it has?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 3:06 Well, so there's a there's a couple things. And that's a more complicated question than it seems like on the surface. So in theory, any type of virus that infects animals could conceivably adapt to infect humans. The vast majority of them however, do not. Most viruses are adapted to replicate within the host that they normally circulate in. So it's important to understand when talking about viruses that viruses can't replicate on their own. They're obligate parasites, so they have to infect a host. And if a virus has been circulating in a specific type of hosts, so for example, as for this virus bats, it adapts to those that to those bats, and it becomes very efficient at infecting and replicating and transmitting to other bats. What can happen when he goes systems are disrupted. If this virus gets to encounter a new type of hosts that it can infect, then it has the potential to either insect and transmit efficiently between those hosts. It also has the potential to cause disease in those hosts. And it's very rare that you find a virus like this particular virus that can do both of those things very well. So this virus, and we don't really understand what led it to become adapted to transmitted efficiently between people. But it has the effect that it can it can transmit efficiently between people in the right circumstances and it can also cause disease and some of those people. And because it can transmit so efficiently and because it started spreading around the world before we were really able to recognize and contain it. That's why this virus has become a pandemic, when many other emerging viruses have not. But there are a lot of different emerging virus pieces that have come out that have become human pathogens. One example of this is Ebola virus which emerges periodically, and most recently emerged in a place that had never been before in West Africa, for example, MERS coronavirus, and SARS coronavirus classic. Were both new coronaviruses to us when they emerged in the Middle East firmers and in China for SARS coronavirus, classic So, it's not unheard of for these viruses to emerge and cause disease in the human population. It is it is much more unusual for one to be as transmissible as this viruses and also cause severe disease in such a large population. Can I'm dumb this down a little bit for me, it's kind of like an athlete with size and speed. I think that's it. That's it. That's a great way to put it and this is more like this is like the type of athlete who might play multiple positions for example. So there They're uniquely adapted to be effective on both sides of the ball. If you're thinking about like a football player, it has both that transmissibility feature, you can think of that I guess as speed. And it has the ability to cause disease, which you could think of, I guess the size,

Nick VinZant 6:16 in terms of how much we know about this virus right now. One, we know absolutely nothing like we don't even have a name, 10 we've got this thing completely figured out. Where do you think that we are right now?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 6:29 I'd say we're probably about four. We do have a name this virus is called SARS coronavirus. We do actually have its full genetic sequence that was the first pieces of data that actually came out in early January. So that's how we know that this virus is so closely related to SARS coronavirus, classic which is why it is called SARS coronavirus. Two. We know what it uses as a receptor which is essentially like a lock that it unlocked to get into the cells that it's infecting. That's a key thing that viruses have to do, we know that it uses a molecule called Ace two, which is the same as ours classic to get into cells and replicate. We know about a few of the things that it does once it gets inside those cells, both to facilitate its own replication and to mute immune responses that the host will raise against it. And we're starting to learn a few things about the types of immune responses long term that it generates. But other than that, there's still many, many questions about this virus and how it works. And people are probably going to be studying it for years to come after this pandemic is over.

Nick VinZant 7:40 Is that number of like a four on the scale of knowledge, is that unusual for this amount of time that has passed or is that about par for the course?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 7:49 No, that's actually really good for the amount of time that's passed. So even though it feels like during pandemic time that that, you know, this, these months have just dragged by For some people, you know, being stuck at home and our lives have changed so drastically It feels like a long time that this virus has been with us. But actually, the data is coming out faster than any any emerging virus outbreak I've been involved with before. I should I should add that when I mentioned the genetic sequence for this virus was released on January 10, you know, really only less than two weeks after the whole world started hearing that there was this new virus circulating in China. By contrast, the first genetic sequence from the 2014 to 2016 Ebola virus outbreak in West Africa, took six months to be published. So we are really learning about this virus at an unprecedented pace. If we did not have the technology and the sort of connectedness that we have globally now, we'd probably be a lot further behind where we are now in terms of what we actually know about this virus.

Nick VinZant 8:59 If we can kind of address some misconceptions or popular things that are out there really quick masks? Yes, no.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 9:08 Yes. Masks are definitely important. We don't have a lot of good evidence about how well they work in terms of being able to assign numbers to it. But it's starting to become increasingly clear that they do. And just, you know, out of precautionary, cautionary principle, I think people should be wearing masks in public at any time, just because there is enough evidence that does suggest they can reduce risk by some amount of exposure. So masks are definite. Yes, for me, I think that everybody should be wearing masks. Everybody should be getting comfortable with them. Unless of course, you have some medical condition that counter indicates them, but very few people actually do. Most people can wear a mask safely. And so I encourage everybody to get comfortable wearing a mask because I feel like we're probably going to doing it for for many months to come.

Nick VinZant 10:02 herd immunity is that a possibility?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 10:05 herd immunity is definitely a possibility with a vaccine. I don't think that herd immunity is feasible with natural herd immunity, which first of all isn't really a thing that that people have ever really thought about. herd immunity is a term that was developed to describe what happens when a sufficient amount of the population is vaccinated against a virus. So yes, herd immunity is definitely possible with vaccination. Once we have some safe and effective vaccines that are available, herd immunity is probably not possible by having the entire the entire population get infected, or you know, for anywhere from 50 to 80% of the population get infected. for a couple reasons. We don't really know how good long term protective immunity is from a natural infection and there are some indications that it may wane After a certain period of time, we just really don't know enough about it. But second is really an ethics issue. If it's 60% of the population, say, of the US, or let's just even say 50% of the population, the US population is about 350 plus million. So half of that is what 170 5 million people, if this only has a 1% case fatality rate, which it looks like it's hovering somewhere around there. No, those are still millions of deaths that we would see just in the US alone if that many people were to get infected with this virus. We also don't know about the long term consequences of being infected with this virus and recovering from it. There have been reports and some people who've recovered who are having persistent problems. They may have lung injuries or reduced lung capacity. They may have neurological issues. There are a lot of things we don't know about this virus. So herd immunity, definitely a possibility with a vaccine. I think it's coming Completely unsafe and possibly not, not really something we can achieve with natural infection,

Nick VinZant 12:07 you know, for kind of just the average person, like, what should I really be paying attention to? Because there's so much noise around everything. And what you hear one day isn't what you hear the next day. What should I really be like? Okay, you should look at this, and you should pay attention to this.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 12:23 Yeah. So this is one thing that has been incredibly difficult to communicate with the public about, and that is that science scientists have been dealing with this pandemic from day one, knowing the same amount that the general public knows about this virus, which is not much. And so a lot of the the recommendations have changed over time as we've gotten new evidence to support them. masser Great example, actually, at the beginning of this pandemic, there was not a lot of evidence about how mass usage could help reduce transmission at population level. And as I mentioned, there's still not a ton of evidence that there is some that masks can help. So the mask guidance has changed for that reason to go from maybe you can wear a mask if you want to. Definitely you should be wearing a mask in public. Even if it's not an N 95 particulate respirator. That's one great example. I think what people should be paying attention to, is really the the long term eyes on the prize kind of perspective. We need to have a vaccine as soon as possible because that is the thing that is going to end all of the stayhome recommendations that we've been dealing with. And I know it's very difficult because it's summertime. Nobody wants to be stuck at home for months at a time, and many people can because of the economy. But the guidance really hasn't changed as far as that goes since March or April and that is that by staying home by minimizing exposure risk. You can keep yourself and your family safe until a vaccine is available. So pay it's To the vaccine studies that will give people an idea I think of when we might have a vaccine and just yesterday, you know, some encouraging phase one clinical trial data came out about the moderna vaccine that suggests that, you know, it's safe and it and it can advance to the next stage of clinical trials, which is great news. So I'd encourage people to not get so hung up on, you know, changing guidance. The things that they can do individually to protect themselves are the same. So avoid crowds. Don't go out except for essential errands. Physical distancing, wear a mask in public practice good hand hygiene, and just really encourage your neighbors to also do so we've seen what happens when states reopen too quickly. That's what's going on right now in these hotspots. states like Texas and Arizona and Florida. We want to avoid that. So people should just as much as possible. Take as many measures as they can to reduce their own risk and the risk to their families going forward until we do have a vaccine.

Nick VinZant 15:07 Do you think that the worst is behind us? We're in it or is it ahead of us?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 15:12 I think it might be ahead of us. And that's really unfortunate but in the US anyways, our our national leadership has really failed to communicate this and and frankly, the politicization of this pandemic has really undermined trust between the public and the public health officials who are making these evidence based recommendations to people. If, if people are already not inclined to believe the experts and not just biologists like myself, but also epidemiologists, physicians, public health, policymakers, etc. It's going to be very difficult to stop to flatten the curve again. People have already shown that they don't have much of an appetite for more lockdowns and even in these states. Were cases, hospitalizations and now, deaths are beginning to surge. People are still very skeptical of the need to take these precautions. So I don't see us making a concerted effort the way that we all did in March and April, to stay home and flatten the curve, enough to get these outbreaks that are going on under control. And we're coming up on flu season. In the fall when influenza also began circulating. Hopefully people will get their flu shots, but we may run into a situation where people are at risk of getting either influenza or COVID. And that is a pretty frightening prospect because the really damaging stuff that's happening in these hotspot states isn't necessarily just that all these people are getting COVID is at the hospital systems do not have the capacity to care for all of them. And so that's when it becomes really dangerous. I'm very worried that in the fall as people We'll start getting sick from cold and flu season normal, normal influenza like illness, we're going to see this get even worse.

Nick VinZant 17:09 When this kind of all started when it really got the public's attention. We talked to a pandemic historian. And one of the things that he said was whenever you're talking about any kind of pandemics, any kind of a public health issue, eventually society makes the decision, how many deaths they're willing to accept? Do you think that that's ultimately what we're going to decide in this case?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 17:33 Well, that's an interesting perspective. Because at the beginning of this pandemic, when the University College London model came out, our sorry the Imperial College model came out which suggested that without any of these precautions in the US, we could have as many as 2.2 million deaths. Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet. But, you know, we're at a much lower level than that. And we decided that point that that was an absolutely unacceptable number of deaths. It seems that at least in terms of federal political leadership, that has sort of changed maybe and, and it appears they might now be willing to accept more deaths than the hundred and 30,000 plus deaths that we've had in the US. So I think that is unfortunately a correct observation. And I'm just can, you know, I'm very concerned and disappointed with our current leadership that that that number is something that keeps getting bigger and it seems that it's becoming more and more acceptable for more people to die.

Nick VinZant 18:38 It's definitely an interesting thing about humanity. How if you set the bar really high, and you say 2.2 million and suddenly mentally we become okay with like, 300,000 and then if you know and then inches up, we just kind of stopped paying attention.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 18:53 I hope that we don't stop paying attention. I think that and I've read that that is part of the the All strategy at this point for dealing with this is just basically the people are going to get used to others dying in their communities. And I just refuse to believe that we as a society are okay with that. Granted, there is evidence that certain, you know, certain groups of people, we've already seen how this has disproportionately affected black and brown people, that those numbers might be more acceptable for some people, people who are not racial minorities. I think that it's it's really difficult and ethically fraught. When you get into deciding who is okay, who am I okay with dying, and who am I not okay with dying? I think that it's, it's not acceptable to have any preventable deaths. And that's, that's the attitude that we need to have as a society. That's certainly my attitude. I really hoped that that people do not become so cynical and a nerd to this pandemic that they'd be I'm okay with, you know, 300,000 400,000 500,000 deaths,

Nick VinZant 20:05 if you were to look at it from a scientific standpoint, when we talk about how we responded to it as a country, what was the biggest mistake that we made?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 20:14 I think that the biggest mistake we've made, really is is allowing this virus to become politicized. I don't want to point to any one specific thing. From the beginning, though this virus has been politicized when we decided to issue a travel ban against China. But not all people from China. It was just foreign nationals coming from China, but anybody who's American could just come right in. That's not an effective way to do a travel ban if you're trying to prevent cases from being imported into the US. And that's a that's a good example, a virus doesn't care what passport you're carrying. A virus doesn't care which country you're in. You're a citizen of bye letting anybody in from places where there were was uncontrolled community transmission and not requiring them to undergo any kind of quarantine or monitoring. That's not an effective travel ban. And sure enough, we imported a lot of cases. We also imported a number of cases from Europe. And those are also circulating. We know now. The Coronavirus Task Force had those daily press conferences for a long time in which misinformation was being just basically spread outright of people were taking hydroxychloroquine because the president said that he liked the idea of the drug without any evidence that it actually works and it doesn't appear to work, at least not very well. People ingested bleach when the President was musing about whether or not disinfectant could somehow be used as a treatment for COVID-19. So we've seen all of these different situations in which political concerns have driven public health guidance. And that has been incredibly harmful. We're seeing it we're still seeing it now. And as of yesterday, the CDC is no longer tracking data on hospitalizations that's going to be tracked directly at the White House that's going to further muddy the water and our own understanding of communities that are at risk in the US. So the politicization and the the steering away from evidence driven public health policy has been tremendously damaging.

Nick VinZant 22:33 why doesn't it affect kids?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 22:36 That's an excellent question that we don't know the answer to. It does seem that there for many coronaviruses including SARS classic and MERS, there is an age dependency where older people are more likely to get severe disease but the bottom line is we don't really know the basis of that. We do know, however, that children are not immune. They're not reserved. They can be infected with this virus and in rare cases, they can get very sick. And in some cases they can die. So children aren't completely off the hook. But yes, it we don't really know what the basis is for their seemingly having less severe disease than older people.

Nick VinZant 23:20 I don't I'm not sure if this is a word, but in the broader viral logical is that a word? is a word it is a word, okay? In a broader biological sense, like when you study a virus, what are you what are you studying?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 23:35 So when you're a biologist like me, you can study a lot of different aspects of a virus. But the broader definition of a biologist is just somebody who studies viruses. Some people study entry, so they study how viruses get into cells. Some people study replication, which is the study of how those viruses copy their genomes which they need to do to make new viruses. Some people Study the immune response to those viruses. Some people studied broader host responses to the virus, which is what I study. So all these different aspects, some people are very, very mechanical about it. And they study the viruses almost as though they're little machines. And they're thinking about all the different the different parts of the virus, like a car, for example, like you can sort of take it out, take it apart and try to figure out how it works. And, as I mentioned before, all viruses need to have a host. So sometimes some of us study the interaction with that host, and how those different parts of the virus work with different kinds of hosts. So that's what I study and I study how really the virus and the host interact with each other,

Nick VinZant 24:46 Viruses in general, but are they trying to kill us or what are they trying to do?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 24:51 So viruses aren't trying to do anything because they are not sentient, so they don't have desires they don't have motivation. They are really machines more than anything, they're little biological machines that are evolutionarily driven to replicate themselves. And that is, you know, sort of every biological entities fundamental,fundamental motivating drive is really to propagate your species. So that's really what viruses have evolved to do is basically make more viruses and make them more efficiently. So no viruses aren't really trying to cause disease. And it's thought that over long evolutionary periods of time, when they are adapting really well to a certain host, that they that they do become what we call attenuated meaning they cause less disease, sometimes they cause no disease. And that's why one one of the reasons why we think that oftentimes bats, which carry Corona viruses in nature, don't get the Don't get very sick, although we still don't know much about that. But it's probably because those viruses are very well adapted to their hosts. So they can replicate efficiently in them. They can make lots of new viruses and transmit to new hosts, but they don't trigger the bad immune systems and they don't cause severe disease. So, oftentimes, we think that that's also why when a new virus comes into a new population, like for example, a bat coronavirus, getting into humans, it might cause more severe disease because the the virus is not adapted to the human host. And so it's triggering responses that themselves can be harmful. And and then you end up with COVID-19. But there's still this is still a very active area of research. And there's a lot of gaps in our knowledge there.

Nick VinZant 26:47 I hope this question makes sense, the way I'm about to phrase it, I feel like I'm gonna phrase it horribly. But when we get infected, like are we just getting one virus or do a bunch of the viruses have the same kind of accumulate and then they all attack us at once. Or how does that how does that work?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 27:04 Oh, that's a really great question. And in fact, it's one that's really at the basis of sort of some of the guidance that people need to take to reduce their exposure risk. So in theory, or actually in a plate of cells in the lab, you can take one infectious virus particle and establish an infection, but in reality, you need a lot more. And part of the reason for that is if you just think of this virus in the way that it's transmitted, you have to get it into your nose. And there are a lot of barriers that are in your nose. Your nose has a distinct physiological shape. It's not just as you know, a single tube. It's a complex network of nostrils and nasal passages and and then your airway. And there's nose hairs, there's mucus, there are all these barriers to a virus getting in and finding its receptor, getting into a cell Getting around the sort of innate alarm systems that are there to protect against viral infection and to finally establish an infection. So it probably tastes and this is really more of a question of probability. It probably takes a lot of infectious virus particles to get past all those barriers and establish an infection in which they can then start making more viruses. The problem is, we don't actually know what that number is that you really need to get past all those barriers, we would call that the minimum infectious dose. We don't know what that dose is, but it's almost certainly more than a single viral particle.

Nick VinZant 28:38 Do you have a few minutes for some listeners submitted questions?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 28:41 Sure.

Nick VinZant 28:42 What do you hate more Facebook or Twitter at the moment?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 28:46 Oh, Facebook, I don't even really go on to Facebook anymore. I find Twitter to be much more useful in terms of following experts and in terms of being able to avoid some of the more harmful misinformation and disinformation sources. Also, all of my racist relatives are on Facebook and they're not on Twitter. So I prefer Twitter.

Nick VinZant 29:10 You really can avoid the relatives a lot easier on Twitter, I feel like right?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 29:15 Yeah, absolutely.

Nick VinZant 29:17 With all of the sanitizing that's going on right now, are we risking creating more resistant antibiotic bacteria?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 29:27 No. So as long as you're sanitizing with household disinfectants and hand sanitizer, that's alcohol based. There's nothing in there that is an antibiotic, you're not going to be creating new antibiotic resistant bacteria. If you do if you are using hand sanitizer that's based on an antibiotic for example, triclosan. You shouldn't be using that because first of all, those are those are ineffective against viruses. But second of all, they can promote antibiotic resistance and the bacteria that are around us

Nick VinZant 30:00 Worst or wait, oh, sorry, best movie about a viral outbreak.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 30:07 That's a hard one because there are most of them all have their problems. I guess contagions probably the the most scientifically accurate. outbreak certainly is not. I Am Legend certainly is not anything with zombies really is not. I would say probably contagions the most scientifically accurate but all of all of those virus outbreak movies have problems because that's not really the timescale how you know, in which pandemic spread as you can see, even for this virus, it's, it's taking place over months, the 1918 flu pandemic took place over years. So a lot of times that they're sort of accelerated, they also really oversimplify how the policymaking process works, and how organizations like the CDC work or the NIH, but yeah, probably contagion is the most scientifically accurate.

Nick VinZant 31:09 From a scientific standpoint. What what's the most interesting virus?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 31:13 Well, I'm partial to Ebola because I've studied it a lot. And Ebola was it's kind of a virologist cliche, but I read the hot zone when I was like in high school, and I thought it was really neat. And that's kind of how I got interested in viruses. So I guess Ebola is always going to be kind of my favorite. But I mean, all viruses are very interesting. They're all very different from each other, and even viruses within the same family like Corona viruses. They all are just a little bit different enough that individually they're fascinating to work on. So I certainly not to knock SARS coronavirus, too because, you know, trying to figure out the the mysteries of this virus as a scientist has been one of the more rewarding aspects of this pandemic. In a pandemic, were you The vast majority of the news is not good. And I'm pretty pessimistic in general about how it's going. But it has been very interesting to study this virus and kind of learn about it in real time.

Nick VinZant 32:11 Can you answer this one or not? This one just says, Are we this dumb?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 32:18 Yes. I'll just leave it at that. But evidence suggests Yes.

Nick VinZant 32:24 It's so bad, though. Like, you would think that we're but okay. Is it people or is it a person who is that dumb? And I don't mean that in any kind of political sense. But like, Is it just the nature of us as people that yes, any kind of herd thing? Is this dumb? Or are we personally this dumb?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 32:43 No, I think I think it's like a herd thing. It's like a population level stupidity. And I think it's just because you know that the discourse is gonna be dominated often by the lowest common denominator and unfortunately, The voices that are kind of spreading that lowest common denominator around are very loud. And they have some very enthusiastic supporters. And I think collectively as a society, you know, we haven't really learned, we haven't really learned our lesson ever. And that's why, you know, there's that old adage that, you know, history repeats itself about history repeats itself. I think that this, this happens over and over again. And our technology is much better, obviously, than a 1918. Our, you know, our circumstances as an as a global civilization I think are much different. But we are making some of the same mistakes. And some of that I think, is human nature and some of it is just the fact that we have not learned how to apply the lessons of the past to our reality today.

Nick VinZant 33:49 Oh, and on this one. Do you have any good news?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 33:54 Yeah, I mean, the vaccine for moderna seems to induce potent antibody response. So that's good news. It's advancing and clinical trials. And the clinical trial for the Oxford vaccine, which I think is being manufactured by AstraZeneca are starting to wrap up and they might even be wrapped up by the end of the summer, meaning we'll have a vaccine probably sooner than later, which is excellent news. It's still not immediately good news. But it's it's very encouraging news at the very least.

Nick VinZant 34:26 I want to thank Dr. Rasmussen so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have a link to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and she is a fantastic resource on Twitter for unbiased, non political, scientific information about what is really happening with this virus and what you need to do. We've also included links to her in the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted

It's time to get our lives together. Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted joins us. We talk organization tips, decluttering your home and why organizing your stuff, can improve your health and happiness. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things It's Impossible to Look Cool While Doing.

Interview with Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted of Neat Freak McKinney

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Lisa Trigsted: Neat Freak McKinney

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, organization and the top five things, it's impossible to look cool while doing,

Lisa Trigsted 0:26 you have to completely empty the space in order to start from from scratch and why I do that and why most organizers do that is that you need to see every single thing that was in there you need to touch everything. You need to decide if it is something that you absolutely love. My goal is to help you set up systems, you know in your home that are going to be lasting and it's going to change the way you feel about your home and the way you use your home. Less is more. You know we live in a world here and estates where it's just consumption, consumption, consumption, and everybody just wants more and more and more, but that doesn't bring them happiness. So what it does is creates anxiety.

Nick VinZant 1:10 I want to thank you guys so much. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I recently saw this study and I don't mean that like, I'm smart. I accidentally came across it while looking at Game of Thrones memes. But I saw this study and it said that one of the keys to success however you define success is to have a strategy and to be organized. Our first guest is an expert at organization. She's a professional organizer that operates out of McKinney, Texas, which is right next to Dallas. She's the founder of neat freak McKinney This is Professional Organizer Lisa trick stead. So how did you get started being a professional organizer nizer

Lisa Trigsted 2:01 Well, that's a fun story. So my whole life I've been organ, an organized person, I'm the oldest of seven. And I grew up with a lot of responsibility given to me as the oldest. And I think naturally, I just was an organized person. So it all came naturally to me. And then fast forward to my adult years. After I had kids, I was helping friends organize their homes, they would come to my house and they would open my refrigerator and be like, What in the world? And so, to me, that was just a natural thing to do. So my daughter went off to college in 2006. And I just felt heartbroken. My little nest was flying away and, and life as I knew it was, was changing. At that time, I was a teacher, and I just really didn't have a heart to be teaching full time anymore. And my friends encouraged me to start an organization or an organization business. And my I'm so busy, I can't even keep up with my own schedule, and I no longer teach. This is just my full time business. And I absolutely love it.

Nick VinZant 3:17 When you first started out, did people have any idea what this was? Or did you kind of have to convince people? Or was this something that people were looking for and they didn't know it existed?

Lisa Trigsted 3:28 Well, it wasn't really like I looked it up and there, there were a couple of professional organizers in Dallas, but it was more It was like let me help you move and get unpacked, but the idea of a professional organizer was very kind of unknown. But my friends were just so encouraging because they saw the results that I you know, what I could do for them and, and my in my own home, that we just kind of, they just kind of just said, let's just try it. And so I did and I called myself just meat freak back then. And but yeah, between 2006 and 2017, things changed dramatically.

Nick VinZant 4:09 Now, do you like to be organized? Or do you feel a need to be organized like is it just essentially who you are?

Lisa Trigsted 4:17 It's both I it's just in, in in inside of me is just the way my brain works. It's the way that I function better when my home is organized, when my thoughts are organized when my kitchen and pantry. I just feel like that is just ingrained in me. It's just who I am.

Nick VinZant 4:38 So when you go into a client's house, or a location or wherever, and you start organizing, like, where do you start? What's the first thing that you're going to do?

Lisa Trigsted 4:48 So before I actually go into the home, I have a phone call or an in person consultation. Now with COVID I do a lot of FaceTime consultations and we talk about exactly What space that they want to start in? And I can I kind of get an idea of how they're feeling about the space, their anxiety level, what they want to achieve. And so by the time I actually get to their home, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to be working on. And so when, when when I come into their home and let's just take a pantry, for instance, and we go to the pantry and I ask them, the general questions, what do you love about it, what's not working? How do you envision it? And then, after they answer all those questions, we just get started. And then number one, the first thing I do is we remove every single thing, whether it's a pantry, a closet, a garage, we take every single thing out,

Nick VinZant 5:44 like out of the house entirely.

Lisa Trigsted 5:50 Chuck the whole house and start from scratch. That's pretty much it but it on the front yard and burn it. No. I take it out of the pantry, we put it on the island or the kitchen table and the counters and we sort through it. But But yes, you have to completely empty the space in order to start from from scratch. And why I do that and why most organizers do that is that you need to see every single thing that was in there, you need to touch everything. You need to decide if it is something that you absolutely love, if it's something that you absolutely want to keep, if it's something that you absolutely use. And if you can't answer those questions with a yes, then I come back and say, you know, we try to figure out why they're holding on to something that doesn't necessarily bring them joy and happiness. And so there's just a, it really is a system that I go through with every single space. It's just a formula and it works and it makes people at first when I tell them I'm going to take everything out their eyes like Like you said, big bug out there like what? And, but once they see it all out, they are amazed if I had a dime for every dollar every time somebody said, How can I how do I have five of this? I would be, I would be rich because people buy things because they don't see that they already have them. Or, you know, just like in a closet, when I group all your black shirts together, they're like, Oh, my word, I do not need to ever buy another black shirt again. So that's kind of why I do that.

Nick VinZant 7:30 If you were to put a percentage on it, let's say like, what percentage of the amount of stuff that somebody has? Do they actually need or use? Are we talking like half 10%? Like how much stuff does somebody actually usually end up keeping?

Lisa Trigsted 7:46 Well, it varies. So I was let's just take a woman's closet, so it's usually they were 20% of what they have or they love 20% of what they have. And in a pantry. Obviously that percentage is going to be higher. 7525 75 they keep 25 there, they find appliances another thing still has the price tag on it from their wedding gifts, you know, things like that. But it does vary from space to space. It depends on how personal you're getting, like, obviously in a closet. It's very personal, you, you know, we like to shop, but we don't always love how it looks when when it's honest. Or, you know, we fluctuate, wait, and then we, we love an item and then we end up hating it or my the my biggest thing is don't buy it just because it's on sale. You know, I used to be that way. Oh, it's a bargain. I'm gonna buy it. But then I didn't love it. It didn't. I didn't like the way it looked on me or didn't like the way it made me fail. And so all those questions go into each space, but it does vary from space to space.

Nick VinZant 8:49 So are you organizing people's stuff? Are you kind of organizing the people behind this stuff?

Lisa Trigsted 8:56 Yes, I'm actually touching and organizing. Their stuff, but at the same time, the teacher comes out in me and I automatically, you know, during the conversation of the time that I'm there in their home, we're talking and then they're kind of asking me questions, and they kind of see how I'm putting it back in and how I create zones in every single space. And so I'm also teaching them, because I don't feel like I would be fully doing my job. If I have to come back every three months to, quote, clean it up, you know, I'm not a cleaning lady. I'm an organizer. And my goal is to help you set up systems, you know, in your home that are gonna be lasting, and it's going to change the way you feel about your home and the way you use your home.

Nick VinZant 9:41 Did you have like an overall philosophy in terms of organization?

Lisa Trigsted 9:46 Yes, yes, less is more. You know, we live in a world here in the states where it's just consumption, consumption, and everybody just wants more and more and more, but that doesn't bring them happiness. What it does As creating anxiety because they have so much junk and crap that they don't use that they, it just overwhelms them and then they get frustrated. And then you know, their bank accounts or credit cards are charged up and nothing that they're buying is making them happy. So my philosophy is always, less is more if you I would rather have, you know, 10 shirts that I wear all the time than 100 pretty shirts that I never wear. And so that's the kind of the philosophy I try to teach my clients is. Don't bring it into your home unless something else goes out. So it's a one in one out rule. And if you live with less, it really does make you feel happier. It's it's proven. It's true. My clients come back and tell me after the fact Oh my word You are right. So that those are kind of my philosophy, philosophies, less is more, simplify your space. And we'll In one out rule,

Nick VinZant 11:02 worst house you ever walked into What did it look like?

Lisa Trigsted 11:05 Oh, well, I I don't kiss until I my clients trust me with their homes, but there's a show on TV.

Nick VinZant 11:19 It was a hoarder house basically.

Lisa Trigsted 11:20 Yeah,And so I mean, and it makes me feel sad and I'm laughing because I'm nervous but it really was a sad situation they'd had an illness in the family and life and you know, had just kind of turned upside down on them and it just was like it snowball like they they didn't want to live that way. It just kind of happened. And so it took them a long time to be able to ask somebody for help. And to me that was the biggest step especially for these families that I help in that type of situation is asking for help. And then them trust. See me and so those situations are very different, you know, I do a ton of Pinterest, you know, the Pinterest pantry where everything looks beautiful. But those situations and with those families, it's a lot deeper and the emotions are deeper and it takes a lot longer and I have to just, you know, go slow and we do a lot of talking, and we do a lot of assessing, and there's a lot of emotions involved, usually a lot of tears. And but, you know, I feel very equipped to help those people. I feel like it's a natural gift for me. And so I can, you know, slow down the process because I'm normally just like a go getter, but in most situations, I just really slow down. But I mean, there's a reason that those houses get that way. But I have a great success story with a client in that same situation. So I was there like six days in a row. Their kids had gone off to camp. So it was just mom and dad at home. And then the kids came home the last two days that I was, I was there. And we ended up having a family meeting and they asked me to conduct a family meeting. And I ran into that same family, believe it or not at The Container Store Two years later, and they saw me across the store, and they were like Lisa, Lisa, come here, and they were so excited to see me. And they showed me because I had given them homework to do after I left because I got everything kind of set up. But there were still some other things that they had to deal with. They had finished all their homework, they had showed me pictures. They were so excited. And that, you know, here two years later, their lives were changed and they were able to maintain it and just the happiness on their face was just so rewarding.

Nick VinZant 13:49 I mean, there's obviously a huge difference between somebody whose house is like, Oh, you've got too much stuff. And somebody who Oh, you have you have a serious like there's a problem here and we need to get you out. hardest room to organize, easiest room to organize.

Lisa Trigsted 14:06 Okay, that's a good question. Again, it depends on the client. I would say probably the hardest room, I'm gonna say. And this is just weird to say but I'm going to say it's a guest room because what happens with most people's guest rooms is they put all the stuff that they don't want to deal with into the guest room is like a huge room that doesn't get used very often. The closets you're usually stuffed with memorabilia, things that grandma you have given them passed down from, you know, generations and things that they don't really want that they they can't get rid of. So it always gets into the junk room or the storage room. And so those take a little bit longer because we have to sift through so many things that have memories attached to them. garages can be one of those places as well. That You know, Oh, we don't want to deal with it. Now we're just going to shove it in the garage. And so when I do a garage, there's usually a lot of that to where again, I'm taking everything out and I make a pile of things that I'm like okay, this really doesn't belong in the garage. Let's talk about why it's in the garage or this really doesn't belong in your guest room. Let's talk about why it ended up in your guest room and the answer is always the same. Well, my mom gave it to me and when she comes to visit, I have to put it out or, you know, my somebody in my family passed away and it was theirs and it makes me feel guilty to get rid of it in and I always asked the same question well, if if you love to this person and they gave you something they would want you, they wouldn't want you to love and enjoy it. And if they're no longer here, they're not going to know that that you're getting rid of it and especially if you're not using it so those are kind of I would say the harder situations and some master closets get that way as well. The easiest room for me and my favorite is a pantry I love pantries I love to make them look pretty. I love to treat them as an extension of the kitchen as another room I like to decorate in there. And so give me a pantry. I could do it in my sleep.

Nick VinZant 16:13 What is the most important room to have organized like if you're gonna, you're only gonna do what you can only pick one room, you got to have this one and then everything else is secondary to having that room organized.

Lisa Trigsted 16:26 So for me, and again, this varies but for me, it's the kitchen The kitchen is has always been the heart of my home. It's where you start your mornings, it's where you and your your days and family meals around the table. You know, little kids are making their lunches you're spending your Saturday mornings or having coffee with friends and family whatever it is you're going to pick one room to get completely organized. I would say start in your kitchen and pantry and then it will just trickle down from there. You're going to love it so much that you're going to want to have organization every single room in your home.

Nick VinZant 17:05 Best way to organize by color alphabetically or by size.

Lisa Trigsted 17:11 Well, that depends. So if we're talking spices I prefer to out an organized alphabetically. If we're talking books, you know, my husband, I will defer. He has a ton of books and he likes to organize them like the library does, but I prefer to organize them in color in the rainbow. I think they look prettier, and I just think they're aesthetically pleasing that way. If it's a closet, definitely I organized by color and by style. What were the other? What was the other topic you said are the other choice

Nick VinZant 17:45 color alphabetically or size?

Lisa Trigsted 17:48 Okay, so, yeah, I say color and alphabetical are the biggest ones for me.

Nick VinZant 17:55 We'll put a link to your Instagram page on the RSS feed for this podcast. I saw One of your Instagram posts that has the books organized by color. At first, I was like, Oh, that's too much. And then I looked at it again, I was like, Oh, that looks pretty good.

Lisa Trigsted 18:12 It really does. Like I said, it used to be a teacher. And in my classroom, I would have them color coded. And the kids kept it that way. They thought it was really fun. There's white books, and you know, and then here's where the white book goes. But like, you know, my husband's, you know, a student, and he uses all of his books for research. And so for him, he has to have them, you know, done by like the library, and he uses this really cool app called library thing. And so if i and it's very, it's, I love it. It's a great organizational tool. So if I ask them, Hey, honey, where's that? Where's this book? He can look on his app and say, Okay, go up at my office. It's the third shelf down second, second bookcase over like right in the middle like he can tell me exactly where all of his books go. So it like I always tell my clients. It has To work for you not necessarily me. So even in my own home it's done two ways but but but it works and that's the key is what works best for you.

Nick VinZant 19:10 Best organizing container Tupperware or something else.

Lisa Trigsted 19:16 Oh not tupperwareI love the Oxo brand, the pop tops. But if you're gonna pick one container to, to organize, it's going to be a lazy Susan and they make so many amazing lazy Susans right now they have them with dividers in them. So you can, you know, stack things up. But I have lazy Susans and every single room in my house and I use them in every single client's home. Whether it's a shelf up high in your garage that has chemicals out of the reach for kids, you can twirl that Lazy Susan and get the chemicals down without having to go get a ladder. Nothing gets lost in the back because it stays contained. And that little rounder. I use it for everything and that's, that's my number one if you're gonna pick an organizer, pick a lazy Susan.

Nick VinZant 20:08 Let's keep let's get controversial. Who is? Who's more disorganized men or women?

Lisa Trigsted 20:16 Oh, well, I'm gonna have to say women. I mean, most of my clients are women. And they're the ones that hire me. And when I go into the spaces, I mean, I do organize for a man and I do organize masterclasses. I have both, but I'm gonna have to say women sorry, girls,

Nick VinZant 20:39 is that on an average orders? They're just some that are, like so disorganized that they kind of skew the average,

Lisa Trigsted 20:47 probably that they probably. I don't know. It's hard to tell. I mean, like, it's hard for me because, I mean, 98% of the people who hire me are women, and so they're the ones I'm going into their homes and organizing. So that's why I feel like it's women. I mean, in my house, it's not me, I'll say that.

Nick VinZant 21:09 Well, I mean, they tend to have more stuff, right? Like I do feel as speaking for the male population. Like we just have less stuff. So it's easier for us.

Lisa Trigsted 21:17 This is true. So yes, in a master bathroom, I will spend the majority of the time organizing her makeup and then I go to his, you know, sink and there's three items. And so yes, I would say on average, really, and truly, I really believe it's women. They're more more disorganized.

Nick VinZant 21:35 How often do you get a phone call after you've done with a client saying they can't find something?

Lisa Trigsted 21:44 Well, a couple I've had but they were friends of mine and they were teasing me I went organized one of my friends pantry when I very first started and her husband called me and said he couldn't find his underwear. And I said, Well, it definitely is not in the pantry. But if I always tell my clients when I'm done, I'll say if you can't find something, text to me, it's hard to have a couple of those, or a couple of where did we put that again? And I'll answer but yeah, but for the most part, I do a walkthrough after with the client, and so they kind of pretty much now and I also label everything. So usually if they can't find it, they see the label. They're like, Ah, that's where it is.

Nick VinZant 22:26 One thing in someone's house will make a professor professional organizers eye twitch,

Lisa Trigsted 22:33 when they try to buy their own bins or baskets or containers. I've come I've had people hire me and they're like, Oh, I already have all the bins and baskets that you'll need. And I get there and I'm like, oh, why did you do this? And so, because number one, they don't always fit, they don't match. I like everything to be aesthetically pleasing. So I don't like mismatched bins, I don't like mismatched hangers. So I always tell my clients, especially if they tell me that I will say, Well, I'm going to bring some stuff as well. And if you don't, if I don't use what you have, hopefully they can return it or use it somewhere else. But you know, if my name is on the line, I try to you know, I try to bring my prop I always bring the products that I know will work best but though, when I talk to all my organizer friends, I think that's what they always just like, oh my even word How? Yeah, they don't like it when you go out and try to buy your own product.

Nick VinZant 23:36 In real life. What are you most disorganized about?

Lisa Trigsted 23:40 Oh, okay, that's a good one. So for me, it's my digital pictures. I take a ton of pictures, I love pictures and I I have them somewhat organized. But it's like, you know, the cobblers kids never had any shoes. For me. It's like that when I come home. The last thing I want to do is organize the pictures on my computer. But over the quarantine, I did get all of my hard copy pictures organized, which was a huge thing on my to do list that I just never had time to do. So I'm getting there slowly but yes, my my, my photos on my computer definitely need help.

Nick VinZant 24:20 Last question for me. Do you think that people your clients can really change? Like, can you become an organized person? Or are you going to see these clients again, whether it's three months or a year later?

Lisa Trigsted 24:32 100% people can change. I say if there's a well if they really want it, and they are and they're asking for help. I mean, the chances are that they're they're sick and tired of the way they're living. And so they want to change. And my sister in law, I mean, by her own admission, was not an organized person didn't grow up, organized. You know, for a long time in her marriage. She wasn't organized and she didn't even know what she was. Clean and everything was cute and clean, but it wasn't organized. And then she read the Marie Kondo book, The life changing Magic of Tidying Up. And that book changed her life. And so she now i mean is beyond organized and she taught herself. So definitely, you can change and my clients, you know, I'm so proud of them. I you know, I do a lot of repeat jobs, like I have a client that I'll come and start in their kitchen and pantry and then they're like, Okay, next I want you to come and do this room and then I do this room and pretty soon I've done their whole house. So every time I go back to a repeat client, I always go peek. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go peek in your pantry. And I mean, I would say 90% of the time. It's, it's not like I would have it is that pristinely perfect. But it's still the systems are still completely set up. And the systems are working. So for me that shows that number one, I've done my job. properly number two they are a really are working the systems that I have in place and three they really desired to change. So yes, definitely people can, can learn to be and stay organized.

Nick VinZant 26:15 Have you ever gone too far though? Like, you'd be like, Okay, this is I've organized this too much, right like the books in color, but they're also alphabetical by the author's birth country or something like I've gone too far here. Have you ever done that?

Lisa Trigsted 26:32 My husband will say yes, of course. I'm gonna say no, I mean, nothing is ever too organized. But I'm sure if you interviewed my husband, he would just be laughing at that question. So I'm gonna say no, I mean, nothing can ever be too organized but I do get a lot of eye rolls. When I show my own space and if I show the before and after, I will get a ton of direct messages that people saying oh my even word like really your before it. Like my perfect after so. But yeah, I get a lot of eyeballs on that when I show my own home, but to me Nothing can be overly organized.

Nick VinZant 27:13 Or they secretly jealous eye rolls though I feel like they're secretly jealous.

Lisa Trigsted 27:18 I think so. I think so. I'm just gonna say that yes, I think they're secretly jealous. Nick VinZant 27:25 That's really all the questions I have what's coming up next for you? How can people get ahold of you?

Lisa Trigsted 27:30 Well, I have been doing a ton of virtual sessions during the quarantine and I, like I said, I live in, in a suburb of Dallas, Texas. So Texas is kind of opened up a little bit more than the rest of the country. And so during the quarantine, my virtual sessions went crazy. And I even had sessions in the UK. It was amazing to meet people all over the United States and in Canada and the UK. And so I'm still doing those and now that I'm back into people's homes, I still I'm saving one day a week to do virtual sessions but you can find me at meet freak McKinney calm on Instagram at neat freak macanthony on Facebook and Pinterest at Nate freak McKinney.

Nick VinZant 28:13 I want to thank Lisa so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included information about how to contact her on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. If you check out your her Instagram, there's like organization that most people think is organized. And then there's her level of organization, which is a whole nother level. It's one of those things where you're like, wow, is that alright, that's, that's pretty impressive, honestly.

Finance and Stock Market Expert Danielle DiMartino Booth

What's next for the economy? With record job losses, unprecedented stock market swings and mounting debt, it's a question we're all wondering. Financial Expert Danielle DiMartino Booth joins us to answer it. In a wide-ranging interview, we talk stocks, the housing market, economic recovery and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Wastes of Money.

Interview with Danielle DiMartino Booth of Quill Intelligence

Speakers:

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Danielle DiMartino Booth: Finance and Stock Market Expert

Nick VinZant 0:13 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, it's all about money, both how to save it. And the top five ways we wasted.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 0:25 Unlike going into the last major downturn in the United States, which was precipitated by households having way too much debt in the way of subprime mortgages. This one was precipitated by corporations and firms in the United States having way, way, way too much leverage. And that left the economy very vulnerable to a shock. You've had companies that that you would say, Wow, I can't believe they're still in business, be able to access the financing that they need. So we call them zombie companies and we now know that one in five American big American company is now a zombie company basically kept alive by very unfair, unbalanced policy that's been unleashed by the Federal Reserve, what we call the silver tsunami. So there's going to be a disconnect, if you will, between the homes that boomers want to sell, and the homes that millennials want to buy.

Nick VinZant 1:20 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So this episode is first coming out in the beginning of July. And I think it's safe to say that this is an unprecedented and uncertain time, especially when we look at the economy and what's ahead. Our first guest is an expert in finance, the stock market and the Federal Reserve. She's worked on Wall Street has been an advisor to the Federal Reserve and is the CEO of quill intelligence, where she has been named one of the top voices on economic trends three years in a row. And I think that she has this fascinating insight into what's happening now. What's going to happen and what we can do about it when it comes to the economy. This is Danielle DiMartino. Booth. So essentially, when you look at the economy and finance right now, where are we? Where do you think that we're headed?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 2:24 Well, I think right now, the US economy is in its deepest recession since since the Great Depression. So I think that we're in kind of uncharted territory, if you will, at least for most living Americans. Unlike going into the last major downturn in the United States, which was precipitated by households having way too much debt in the way of subprime mortgages. This one was precipitated by corporations and firms in the United States having way way too much leverage. And that left the economy very vulnerable to a shock, which is why we're seeing a downturn of this magnitude following the Coronavirus outbreak,

Nick VinZant 3:04 Is there any chance we are just gonna bounce right back when this is over, or what do you thing in going to happen?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 3:12 Well, unfortunately, we're seeing that the economy was again in such a fragile place prior to this happening, that we've had the highest number of outright bankruptcies since 2009. And a lot of these companies obviously will go away and never hire again. We had a jobs report recently, that on its surface looked good with a falling unemployment rate, but unfortunately, we've we've had 2.8 million permanent layoffs in the United States to put that in some context, in the recession of 2001. That's about as high as we ever got with permanent job losses, and it puts it on par with sep tember 2008 at that point had into the financial crisis. We were also at this same kind of very high level of permanent job losses indicating that it's going to be a lot more than just the reopening impulse to put the economy back where it was, in fact, that could take years possibly,

Nick VinZant 4:16 For me, somebody who really doesn't know much about anything financial, like what should I be paying attention to the jobs report, the stock market, like, what what should I really be watching?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 4:31 I think the most important single factor that you want to pay attention to at this point is the jobs market. Because the US economy, at its most fundamental level is 75%. consumption. So we are what we spend as a country. That's the simple fact. So if people don't have jobs, or if a third of the companies that have not had to push through layoff but have cut incomes have cut, pay If that's the case, and people are less capable of spending what they did last year, and or they don't have a job at all. So again, we are what we spend as a country, follow the jobs market the most closely,

Nick VinZant 5:13 however bad that this is going to be. Is it going to be a quick kind of bad like we're going to know immediately or is it going to be a slow progress like, oh, wow, we're really not going to hit the bottom four months.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 5:24 Unfortunately, what we're seeing play out right now is that we're having a strong bounce back as there are rolling read openings going throughout the country, but at the same time, because there wasn't a coordinated national response to Coronavirus. We've got a massive wave in the Sunbelt of virus counts increasing. And we're seeing one city and state after another pull back on their reopening. So what we look like we're seeing in terms of an economic recovery is that we've got this sharp bounce back, headed into the second half and retrenching, so we're going to have something called a W shaped recovery where we slide back down. And to your point that is going to make recovery be much more protractedthan it would otherwise be.

Nick VinZant 6:14 Is it going to be a situation where the haves it's not going to be that bad and the have nots, it's going to be really bad? Is that going to be the case?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 6:22 Well, I think a lot of that, sadly, is going to depend on the next stimulus package that comes out of an increasingly divided Congress. At the end of July, there is a supplementaries $600 per week and unemployment insurance that is set to expire. A lot of rental moratoriums are expiring as well. And in some cases forbearances on mortgages also will start becoming due such that you will indeed have people of means people of wealth be fairly untouched by what's to come. But you will you will increasingly see those With less, it looked for alternatives so that they aren't kind of emergency financial emergencies in their life. Just to give you one example, we've seen a spike in the number of multiple, multiple parts of family bumping up together. So we, we've been joking about the millennials in the basement for a generation now. But this is an actual spike in the number of people who are either parents moving in with their children or children moving in with their parents.

Nick VinZant 7:29 Is there anything that I know obviously, hindsight is 2020. But is there anything that we as a society are from a policy standpoint, they could have done they could have avoided all of this?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 7:40 Well, now That's it? That's a very deep question. And the answer is that yes, there is something that we could have done many decades ago, when, with the advent of the credit card, and what what that taught Americans and what became ingrained in their way of consuming and behaving, as well as companies, as well as the federal government, then this is fostered by years of the Federal Reserve holding, borrowing costs at artificially low levels, which really does facilitate a lot more borrowing than then you could do otherwise. It's if it's cheap to borrow, then you can borrow more, right? Pretty simple. But it's it's become an ingrained part of our culture. And that left a lot of us families, as well as US companies. Hit by this, this outside shock of the virus, and completely unprepared because saving has become this extinct part of the American culture. And, you know, you might remember your grandparents or your parents saying, boy, you you've always got to save for a rainy day, but for so many Americans that was an abstract in theory notion, and what we saw coming into this was that how Hold with made $100,000 in 2019, that's 38% of these households to take one example had not a penny of savings set aside. So I think that this will leave a scar of sorts, it's certainly going to feel like a scar for Americans who become accustomed to getting the latest iPhone when it comes out and always upgrading their car every few years when it comes off of lease and always having the nicest newest things. I think that I think that there will be a lasting permanence, if you will, and how we view spending money going forward, because so many found themselves unprepared.

Nick VinZant 9:37 One of the things that struck me like I kind of, you know, I knew a lot of people that lived paycheck to paycheck, and that seemed to be a pretty consistent thing. But I was really surprised to hear how many companies were essentially doing the same thing.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 9:50 That's exactly right. You are seeing where even small and medium sized companies in the United States a didn't have a cache cushion, or B had too much debt taken out and found themselves, you know sideswiped by this by this tragedy that has seen a loss of small businesses that that concerns me will take many, many years, if ever to recover a recent recent survey by Yelp, you know, Yelp, you can always see Yelp online for this in that review. But a recent survey by Yelp found that a third of retailers, including small retailers, and over 50% 53% of restaurants say that they're going to be closed permanently. After this. These are massive numbers to recover from which goes back to one of your first questions. Whether or not this is going to be a matter of bouncing back in a matter of months or years.

Nick VinZant 10:45 I mean, are these solvent companies in the sense that like yeah, these are these are rock solid stuff. I'm thinking of like, Caterpillar things that you think of they're not going anywhere? Or is this kind of forgiving? For the phrase, like getting rid of companies that only had a couple of years left anyway,

Danielle DiMartino Booth 11:04 Well, unfortunately, what you raise is, there are going to be plenty of household names that are still household names, years from now. There were some small mom and pop companies that were just illiquid. And were not able to access the financing that they needed to bridge this crisis. But they were actually strong sturdy solvent, good balance sheet companies, but didn't get access to to liquidity because maybe they didn't qualify for the paycheck Protection Program. Maybe a lot of their boys were 1099 or they weren't able to use 75% of the proceeds for employment if they were only going to be open up, be able to open up their company in bits and pieces to in order to to adhere to health standards. So in that sense, we have lost some American companies that we shouldn't not have. But by the same token, because the Federal Reserve has opened up liquidity problems, excuse me liquidity programs to all kinds of junk rated companies, we also have a facilitated the living dead in the larger corporate sector with access to the capital markets access to the corporate bond market, you've had companies that you would say, Wow, I can't believe they're still in business, be able to access the financing that they need. So we call them zombie companies. And we now know that one in five American big American companies is now a zombie company basically kept alive by very unfair, unbalanced policy that's been unleashed by the Federal Reserve.

Nick VinZant 12:48 This may be a really naive question. This may be a good question. Why can't we just distribute money to everybody you know, the idea of universal basic income because it seems in some senses like You have to have a job so you can have money so that you can spend so you can prop up companies that hire people to have jobs. Like what? Why can't we just give people money?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 13:09 Well, we have, we have just given people money. We've been giving people money, since the cares Act was passed. And if you consider an extra $600 a week in unemployment insurance, when some people were only collecting 250 or $300 a week, there are a lot of people right now who are making more money collecting unemployment than they were making prior to being furloughed or laid off from their position. The question I think you're asking is whether or not we can we can sustain this type of policy indefinitely. And I push back on that because I'm of the belief that if we run up national debts to kingdom come, then eventually we will have people who buy our treasuries at auction when when when Uncle Sam is the one doing the borrowing that there will pushback among creditors to United States who say, wait a minute, you've got the checkbook wide open, you're just gonna run the debts up, because you have the dollar and the dollar is dominant throughout the world as as the means by which transactions take place. We all know that it's King dollar. But you've taken advantage of that status by running up your debts as much as you have. And then we're going to see pushback. And you see interest rates start to rise, and it's game over.

Nick VinZant 14:31 Oh, I see. Let me ask one follow up question that said, it's like somebody could essentially swoop in and buy the debt, and then they could eventually come calling is that kind of how it would work?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 14:41 Or they could eventually say good luck, we're not going to loan to you anymore. Picture. Picture the person in the year 2005, who was going to their banker to get the sixth or the seventh mortgage, because they'd become a professional home flipper. And the banker at some point says, Wait a minute, I'm not going to loan you any more. Because you've got way too much debt, you're not gonna be able to service that in the long run. So I'm gonna cut you off. So I'm going to quit borrowing. I'm going to quit and lending you more.

Nick VinZant 15:08 Switching gears a little bit. How did how did you get into this? What was it that drew you into this world?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 15:14 Well, I was I was fascinated with finance when I went to business school. I got out in 1996, and I started on Wall Street in New York. And it was, it was just a doggy dog. Pretty crazy, fun world back then, and investment banking. But at the same time, there was there was kind of this presence, if you will. This was when pets.com and anything calm for that matter, was able to get financing and do an IPO back in 1999 2000. And so you sense that there was something that didn't make sense that was fueling this mania fueling this bubble, kind of like these crazy Robin Hood or investors who we have today that are day trading their stimulus There's stimulus checks. And it wasn't until really I had left Wall Street and discovered what the Federal Reserve was and how big of an impact that it made on our day to day lives and actually joined the Fed for the better part of a decade throughout the crisis, that I came to a better understanding of just how little the average American starting with me knew about finance in the markets, even though I had worked in them. And that was kind of what got me off on this mission of trying to help educate the world on the importance of understanding economics understanding that the economy is not the stock market and vice versa and and the effect that debt has on your life on a small business life on a big company's life on on the US Federal Government's life on that of China and how how they interact. Maybe, maybe it's the beauty of having a better appreciation for sitting down and watching the evening news because it's You understand the economics of the world, you've got a heck of a lot more context to work with.

Nick VinZant 17:07 I know of the Fed. I know that the Fed is important, but I don't know what they do.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 17:12 Well, at the most basic level, the Fed is mandated with making sure that the dollar bill in our wallet retains its value. They're supposed to minimize inflation so that the buying power of your dollar is is is sustained over the long term, that that's that that's at the most basic and they're supposed to maximize employment in the US economy by having the most favorable interest rate policies that they can have to make sure that that lending is not cut off.

Nick VinZant 17:41 So for you like a typical day, are you watching the stock market pretty much all day long, looking at jobs reports, like how do you go about developing the research and the foresight that you have,

Danielle DiMartino Booth 17:53 you actually have a pretty good understanding of what I do. I follow the markets very closely every night. I watch it every Sunday evening, I watched the Asian markets open. I follow the news wires constantly. I watch economic data as it's released. And that's a worldwide phenomena. And and I follow what the financial markets, how they're interpreting it and what companies are reporting in terms of their earnings every three months or so that gives me an idea for where we are in any given economic cycle.

Nick VinZant 18:26 Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:31 Of course

Nick VinZant 18:32 Who do you think will have the harder time moving forward boomers or millennials?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:37 I think millennials will

Nick VinZant 18:39 have they gotten hit harder than any other generation in recent memory.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:44 Yes and No, I some of it lies at the feet of their parents who were overly indulgent. And some of it has to do with cosmically where they were. And that is in many ways At a time in American history when when four year college degrees were pursued to a fault, when there should have been more vocational training, encouraged in the US economy in order to maintain more balance,

Nick VinZant 19:14 do you see any kind of a collapse or any kind of big shift with all of the boomers retiring in the next 10 or 15 years?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 19:23 We definitely see going forward, what we call the silver tsunami. So there's going to be a disconnect, if you will, between the homes that boomers want to sell, and the homes that millennials want to buy. And some of it will be price in nature. And so I think that there will be a long term unexpected downturn in housing as boomers move to downsize unless that is their children are moving in with them, which is going to be the case increasingly. But yes, the boomers are going to be liquidating their their their investment portfolios and they We'll be consuming a lot less. The idea of boomers consuming less has been expedited by the Coronavirus because of the way that so many have reacted to the Coronavirus. And I say that they've reacted by not taking protections that allow older people to rejoin day to day life such that we really have locked down a lot of our seniors for longer than we otherwise would. And this will cause a long term ripple effect in consumption.

Nick VinZant 20:30 We try to stay a little bit away from politics in this on this particular podcast, I'll ask you this question. You don't have to name names, if you don't want to. But if you want to, then by all means, when you look at the upcoming election, do you look at one person as being significantly better than the other in terms of a financial policy

Danielle DiMartino Booth 20:50 better than the other in terms of financial policy? No would be the answer. I see. One of the underlying problems with politics in america today. Is that there is such extremism that you're voting for an extreme at one end or the other, as opposed to something that is closer to being rational and in the middle?

Nick VinZant 21:13 What is the best financial advice you have ever gotten or given

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:18 the best financial advice that I've ever received is to save that there is no substitute for actually saving your money that you cannot rely on investment returns as much as you can rely on having that discipline to always set aside money. And then you can invest it prudently such that it grows with time, but first you got to say that

Nick VinZant 21:39 will crypto ever be a real thing?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:42 I think that sovereign crypto is in the works and that major nations will have cryptocurrencies one day. Really? You think I mean that

Nick VinZant 21:55 that far, huh? Oh, gosh. Yes.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:57 It's It's It's part of technology. That, again the Coronavirus has completely expedited, you now have a huge part of everybody worldwide who who wants to transact at an arm's length and in a sense, get rid of cash. So I think that we will always hopefully have the ability to have to say, gee, I'm an American, I want my hundred dollar bill option, or I want to have it in my checking account. But I think that a sovereign cryptocurrency a Fed coin, if you will, is inevitable, because it's in the works in countries such as Russia, Venezuela and China. So in some way, it's a matter of national security to ensure that there is a sovereign cryptocurrency

Nick VinZant 22:41 is there another country out there that you see this kind of going to join the ranks of big economic powers in the next reasonable timeframe.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 22:49 So I do think that we should be on the lookout for some smaller countries such as Singapore, some smaller South Eastern Asian countries that are more open to, to freer capitalism, and to more honest trade than what we've grown accustomed to with China. And so I think that I think that looking for alternatives to China is going to open the doors. Indeed for new entrants.

Nick VinZant 23:24 This one's kind of light hearted. We asked people ahead of time. What do you think is the biggest overall waste of money?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 23:30 I would probably have to say iPhones.

Nick VinZant 23:34 Yeah, it's not really that much different than the other stuff, is it?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 23:39 No, unfortunately, it's become apparent to me throughout the years that that whatever happens when you download a security update, kills your battery. Makes it to where you, you get so frustrated, you want a new iPhone, but in terms of functionality, not much different generation to generation, just the price is what

Nick VinZant 24:01 I still got the old one. I still got the five works. works just great. I had a blackberry until last year.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:09 I miss my Blackberry.

Nick VinZant 24:12 It's so great to just have the key. Did you have the keyboard kind? Or did you have the screen card?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:16 No, no, I had the keyboard kind. It was great.

Nick VinZant 24:18 I miss it. I really do. I really do. That's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything? Anything you think we missed? what's coming up next for you?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:31 I'll be doing a little bit of traveling, which is saying something I haven't been on the road since February. But I will just keep on keeping on. I've got a research company quill intelligence. We produce daily and weekly. And I'm always easily accessible on Twitter as well at DiMartino booth. So come visit.

Nick VinZant 24:49 I want to thank Danielle so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've all Also included her information on the RSS feed that's in this podcast.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly

Come for the pimple popping and back waxing horror stories, stay for the skin care and beauty tips. Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly joins us for this episode. We talk skin care secrets, the best way to pop pimples and beauty products that work. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Appliances.

Interview with Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly

Speakers

Nick VinZant : Profoundly Pointless Host

Reanne Kelly: Master Aesthetician

Nick VinZant 0:15 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're going to talk about skin and appliances.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 0:24 I mean, especially for women, and especially with social media and constant pictures, I think people are really taking the time to take care of their skin now and Oh gosh, there's so many. I mean, I've seen people completely, you know, burn their faces and you know, give themselves second degree burns with chemical peels. Lady I remember she tried to, she had some hyperpigmentation on her face. And instead of trying to treat it, she just got a tattoo gun off of Amazon and tried to color over it. I always tell people if they want to have it a really good skincare routine, SPF sun screen, vitamin A and vitamin C and you are going to be pretty set for life.

Nick VinZant 1:09 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So this episode is one of those where I had no idea that there was so much that went into this because not only does our first guests really have some fantastic insight into the best way to care for your skin and some really good beauty tips. But it's also this really interesting look at this strange things that people do because she has these stories that make you just what the hell was that person thinking? Our first guest is a master esthetician with over 10 years of experience. This is rianne Kelly. So What exactly is an aesthetician?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 2:02 So an esthetician is somebody that works with skin and you know, depending on the state, it can be a whole array of things but facials waxing, chemical peels micro needling and you know you go all the way up to like lasers, you know, for hair removal or resurfacing

Nick VinZant 2:21 I mean, do most people think about their skin that much, like I can't honestly say I ever really do.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 2:27 I think guys are becoming more aware of their skin and taking care of it. I have definitely a lot more male clientele that I did you know, when I started out 10 years ago, but I mean, especially for women, and especially with social media and constant pictures, I think people are really taking the time to take care of their skin now and we also have all this information at our fingertips. You know, so people are also becoming more savvy about skincare too. Can you really do something about it? Are you kind of your skin is your skin No, I mean, there's absolutely things that you can do for your skin. And it may take time and patience, but we can always improve situations. And it's definitely a team effort. I always say like, treatments are 20% of the process and your home cares 80% of the process. So it's a team effort, but you can really get phenomenal results. And that's one of the reasons that I love my job is because I can really have an impact on somebody's life.

Nick VinZant 3:27 Are you fixing a problem necessarily? Are you just trying to make somebody look better for lack of a better phrase?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 3:34 Yeah, I mean, a lot of times it is, you know, like a specific problem. wrinkles, acne hyperpigmentation, which is, you know, brown spots, freckles on the face. And you know, there times just kind of some people just won't get a while actually, I think most people want to get to a point for women anyways, that they don't have to wear makeup and they feel confident in the skin going upside.

Nick VinZant 3:58 What are you generally doing the most

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 4:02 For me, I'm more on the medical side of the spectrum for aestheticians. So I do a lot of micro needling chemical peels and lasers.

Nick VinZant 4:14 For somebody that doesn't know anything about it, like all of this sounds like that would be bad for the skin, like chemicals, oils and lasers on you

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 4:24 You definitely want to go to somebody who knows what they're doing, because in the wrong hands, it definitely can do damage. I always say like, with chemical peels, we're doing a controlled burn to stimulate college and production, fix the issue. So there is a fine line, you know, between good and bad, and that's why you definitely want to do your research and go to somebody good and then it's why I encourage my clients never to try to do these things at home because they can get these things off of Amazon and that's when you hear about all these horror stories. What's kind of like the worst horror story Oh gosh, there's so many. I mean, I've seen people completely, you know, burn their faces and, you know, give themselves second degree burns with chemical peels that they've gotten off Amazon. Lady I remember if you try to she had some hyperpigmentation on her face. And instead of trying to treat it she just got a tattoo gun off of Amazon and tried to color over it flesh color.

Nick VinZant 5:30 What?Like, like, but she just tried to tattoo over her own face.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 5:42 Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:43 Right, like hearing that. That makes no sense. But what is it about like somebody's skin that makes them desperate enough that they would do something like that.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 5:52 It can be a lot of things. I think, you know, money and patience are definitely Some big factors, maybe not trusting somebody else to do their skin or being able to find the right fit with somebody. And I think also with the technology that we have nowadays, I think people think that they can do it themselves too. Like I'm going to try this myself first and save some money.

Nick VinZant 6:19 When when we talk about like, what most people are doing wrong, what are most people doing wrong in terms of skincare?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 6:26 It's hard to answer because it It varies from person to person, what they're doing wrong.And depending on what their issue and concern is, but you know, just having a basic routine down probably the number one thing is, you know, people aren't wearing sunscreen. That's the biggest thing and washing their face and having kind of just a basic routine but I always tell people, sunscreen is the best thing you can do for your skin. If you want to be super minimal 80 to 90% of aging is due to the sun

Nick VinZant 6:59 Do they need to use like a certain SPF or is pretty much anything enough?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 7:06 I always recommend at least an SPF of 30 and above and if you can find one with zinc oxide or titanium dioxide, those are two physical, UV filters. Those are the best ones and they cover that full, UVA UVB spectrum of protection, which is awesome.

Nick VinZant 7:24 What are some of the most popular treatments that an aesthetician is doing?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 7:30 I think most aestheticians we're known for like facials, and waxing facials are amazing. You not only come out with glowing clean skin, but you also feel very relaxed at the same time. How did you get into this? I actually started working at a medical Spa in high school, part time doing I started off as a spa assistant, and then worked my way up to front desk and went to college for a couple of years and I just was like you know, this isn't what I want to do and kind of always have In the back of my mind, because I love beauty and helping people feel better about themselves. So I just left school and went for it and it was the best decision I've ever made.

Nick VinZant 8:10 Is it financially lucrative in and of itself? Or do you have to kind of own your own business for it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 8:16 It can be very financially lucrative, but it takes time. It is definitely not. There's definitely I always tell people who want advice, I always say, it's gonna take some time you have to hustle. You may not be where you want to be right away. But if you stick with it, it's a really amazing job. You love what you do. And you can be totally, you know, financially stable and more so, but you don't necessarily you don't necessarily have to own your own business to get there. The last place I worked at a big medical spa, and I was making very good money, so and able to financially support myself.

Nick VinZant 8:56 Why do people like watching pimple popping videos

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:01 I happen to be one of those sick people. Any aesthetician probably loves pimple popping as well. I think there's something about there's a problem. And you can actually see yourself getting rid of it that you get that you get that visual satisfaction and if you're actually doing the extraction, I mean, you can actually feel things like popping out and moving. And so it's very, like satisfying in that way like, Oh, I got it

Nick VinZant 9:36 more satisfying to pop your own pimple or somebody else's pimple.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:40 I mean, more satisfying to do somebody else cuz then it doesn't hurt me at all.

Nick VinZant 9:47 That's it every time I've been asked to like pop someone else's pimple like you can crank away on somebody else.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:53 Yes. And yeah, and I definitely I get lost in extraction. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, I was supposed to just do 10 minutes. extractions and that was 30 minutes. Sorry.

Nick VinZant 10:03 Is there a good technique like what's the best pimple popping technique?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 10:08 Definitely, there's definitely a technique to it because you don't want to injure or hurt the skin anymore. So I always tell people, if they're going going to do it at home, you know, do it after a shower or take a rag and run it under hot water and kind of hold it on the pimple for a couple of minutes just to soften the seat them, the oil in the pimple. And then wash your hands. Wash the area if you didn't do it right after the shower, and wrap your fingers with some toilet paper or you can use the ends of like q tips. And you just want to go on the very sides of the pimple and you want to push down and that way everything is pushed up. And if it doesn't come easily, step back and leave it alone. Clean it. Come back to it another day. I can't though I can't Seen it is really good, you can do that I sing it to help with the inflammation. Raw manuka honey is actually a really good spot treatment too, because it's anti inflammatory. It's antibacterial. And it's also a humectant. So it doesn't. So it hydrates the skin.

Nick VinZant 11:16 You have a really good Instagram following when you first kind of started we were you surprised that so many people were, were looking for this?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 11:25 Yes or no. But when I started Instagram, it was probably like, five years ago now more than five years ago, gosh, like seven. And there weren't a ton of estheticians on Instagram when I started it. And that's kind of why I started it. I wanted to get that education out there for people. And it's definitely I mean, it's really grown in the last year and I think now like, every statistic is on Instagram because it's free marketing, whether they're trying to educate or just trying to help build their business. Hardest place to pop a pimple artist placed to pop a pimple back can be backs can be a little bit stubborn. I feel like you can't, you know, the skin isn't as pliable so it's a little harder to work with. But yeah, it not necessarily is due to the area is due to the pencil sometimes to the type of pencil and if it's ready or not to come out, oh,

Nick VinZant 12:25 here's another one. What are these things on my nose? They didn't. There's no picture they just put what are these things on?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 12:35 Well, I'm guessing they're probably blackheads or sebaceous filaments sebaceous filaments, they kind of look like blackheads but they're supposed to naturally be in our nose. So yes, you can squeeze them out but they're always going to come right back. And then blackheads is you know, see them and dirt is in the poor and it gets exposed to all Oxygen, and turns black and that's why you see those blackheads in the poor, biggest waste of time treatment or product. That's I would say, I would say more of a fluffy In my opinion, something more of a fluffy facial because yes, it's relaxing but it's not, you know, doing much for your skin. I would say if you're going to do a facial at least do something slightly corrective

Nick VinZant 13:24 There's so many products that are out there for people are there are there really things that seem to work better than other ones?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 13:32 Absolutely. And I always tell people if they want to have a really good skincare routine, SPF sunscreen, vitamin A and vitamin C and you are going to be pretty set for life. We know that vitamin A, or retinoids, as they're called, they stimulate collagen production. And they do a whole other lot of things but collagen production is really what they're known for. And as we age We get into our early 20s, we start slowing down in our collagen production. So it's essential to start those really soon as soon as you can, and it's never too late either. But, and then vitamin C is an antioxidant. It helps with free radical damage, which is everywhere the sun pollution, we create them in our bodies. But also without vitamin C, we can't make or store collagen. So they kind of need each other in a sense to and then of course, you know, SPF is going to block the sun and washing your face is going to make sure you're getting all that dirt pollution and grime off of your face and your leftover products too. So the products you put on afterwards can penetrate well.

Nick VinZant 14:43 Is there one product that you would say like oh, that's that's the that's the jam. That's what people need.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 14:50 I don't know I honestly I could not pick one. I mean if it was that, if I had to pick one product like I said SPF is the most efficient Product

Nick VinZant 15:00 What about lotion or something like that? Is there? Is there one stuff that's better than other ones?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:06 It depends. It's so hard because there's so many products out there nowadays and they all do different things. So you have moisturizers and lotions that are more hydrating, some of them are more anti aging. Some of them are frightening. You know, and some of them kind of do a mix of all of them.

Nick VinZant 15:25 Are they really doing something? No, or some of them kind of like a marketing waste?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:30 Definitely, some are a marketing waste thing. You know, moisturizers, I always tell people if they want to invest properly and invest well in products serums are where people should spend money on because serums they're smaller molecules. So they're going to penetrate deeper into the skin. And then of course, it's they're super concentrated too. So you're getting a lot of bang for your buck.

Nick VinZant 15:53 Serum, I'm not sure what that is

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:57 so serums there. really lightweight, they can go anywhere from Gosh, a super watery consistency to kind of a lotion consistency and anything in between. But some of them there's a serum for everything I mean, acne, hyperpigmentation, hydration, you know, moisturizers and lotions. They're good for hydrating the skin and kind of making a barrier, but they're not going to be at corrective as serums would be.

Nick VinZant 16:29 No, do you do Botox or is that is that a medical doctor that has to do?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 16:33 Yeah, depends on the state. There are some states where estheticians can inject but I'm very against that and don't think that should be done. But typically it is a nurse or a doctor who's doing Botox or filler.

Nick VinZant 16:48 So how can people kind of find a make sure they have somebody that really knows what they're doing?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 16:55 Definitely checking out, you know, their referrals. Get it checking their Instagram, kind of following them for a while. And of course, word of mouth referrals too. And, you know, you can always ask people like, what their background is. And I encourage that too, in most Consultations are free with people so you can kind of go around and see who's the best fit for you.

Nick VinZant 17:20 Here's another listener question. What is the grossest thing you've ever had to do? Oh, God.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:29 I don't know if that's safe.

Nick VinZant 17:33 It's look it's, there's no there's nothing's off limits. It's not for kids. Now I'm really curious, like, what was it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:42 Um, I think probably my worst experiences which I don't do this anymore. was with waxing.

Nick VinZant 17:51 Oh, yeah.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:55 And you have to wax you know, I was very good at waxing. I was very Fast they did a good job. But that's always where you kind of usually run into issues and stuff like that. So yeah, just you know, people not being clean enough for having, you know, accidents like starting their period in the middle of a wax or not wiping well enough and they turn over and you're like, oh, god

Nick VinZant 18:26 I almost threw up. Because I could imagine

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:29 like, yeah, you feel that way sometimes.

Nick VinZant 18:33 Was it a guy who didn't wipe enough for a girl?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:36 Girl

Nick VinZant 18:37 Really? I get like a guy I could see maybe he thought it was gas and didn't check correctly. That doesn't seem like a thing a woman would necessarily do.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:48 I know. But now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I've ever had a man.I've never had a man. leave anything back there.

Nick VinZant 18:56 Yeah, no. Maybe we're better. Maybe we're better wipe

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:03 Maybe they're just really paranoid before they come in. They're like, I gotta make sure this is good.

Nick VinZant 19:08 Have you ever had a guy though that came in and you're just like, buddy, I can't help you. I'm not. I'm not tackling that whole thing you got going on back there.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:19 No, No, I haven't. No, luckily.

Nick VinZant 19:22 So Laser Hair Removal, does that really work, does it do what's advertised?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:30 Well, it's a permanent form of hair reduction is what I always tell my clients. So it's a hair reduction, can you get 100%? Yes, it's possible. And then as far as coming back, the only thing that can bring the hair back is hormones. So for females, that's more of the face area. So I always tell them, they'll have to have touch ups every once in a while because that's kind of women's hormonal area. And then for guys, unfortunately, its backs that there hormonal area.

Nick VinZant 20:01 Oh, I've heard I've heard of women that have like after, after they have a baby, they kind of get a moustache look.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 20:09 Yeah. So obviously in pregnancy hormones are the issue. So sometimes after somebody has a baby, that could stimulate some hair growth, they come back and do a couple of touch ups and then they're good to go again. I've seen some where they almost look like the pigmentation changes, though. Is that Yeah, no, that's melasma and or the pregnancy mass, and typically is associated with pregnancy, but it can happen outside of pregnancy. I see it a lot with young girls who are on birth control, and then usually a combination of birth control and sun exposure. And it triggers that pregnancy mask.

Nick VinZant 20:47 I was I was looking at some of the, you know, the some of your before or after posts. These are people can they be pretty emotional afterwards.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 20:56 Yeah, absolutely. And it's Whereas it's just so rewarding to be able to help somebody feel confident in their skin. Just the best feeling.

Nick VinZant 21:07 What advice would you give for somebody during the awkward teenage acne years?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 21:14 Definitely, if somebody is having a problem, it can be so hard for teenagers because they're so self confident about it. Sorry, self conscious about it. And especially like teenage guys, they really don't ask for help a lot. So usually, it's their mom's bringing them in and just, you know, go to the doctor, go to an aesthetician get the problem fixed now rather than later, because I just, it breaks my heart when I have these teenagers come in who have been dealing with it for years and they're so self conscious and then they have all this scarring, which is permanent, and it just really affects their self esteem. What do you think? Why is it such like leaves such lasting impact on us, like, even in our 30s I know people that are still super self conscious. Yeah. You know, it's our face. It's our skin. And it's the first thing that people see. And I think especially now, you know, I grew up kind of when technology was, you know, like I had a cell phone in middle school. But we didn't take selfies. We didn't have all these filters with Snapchat and stuff. And my friend's daughter who's 15, she's constantly on Snapchat with these filters, and it makes you look like you have amazing flawless skin. And then if that filter comes off, you're like, oh, why doesn't my skin look that good? So I think there's a lot of judging ourselves on, and especially what we see in the media, too. I mean, magazines and television. They're all edited. We're not so we think people have this amazing skin. I'm like, No, their skin does not look like them in real life.

Nick VinZant 22:58 That's always gonna Like there's anybody, have you ever seen somebody whose skin actually really looks like that?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 23:05 I mean, people have, can have beautiful skin, but what they're seeing, you know, in magazines and stuff, they have less wrinkles. They don't have any pores. And it's like, no, it's all skin has pores, and, you know, so they can have beautiful skin, but I guarantee you, it's not going to look like it does, you know, edited by Photoshop,

Nick VinZant 23:27 can you really kind of stop the aging process? Or are you basically just controlling it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 23:33 you're controlling it, you know, aging is always a constant battle. So you're helping to control it and to slow it down as much as possible. And depending on how aggressive you want to be with treatments, I mean, you can definitely, you know, it's all it's not about necessarily looking younger, it's about feeling good and looking good for your age.

Nick VinZant 23:56 People don't tan anymore. Do they do that.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:00 They do unfortunately,

Nick VinZant 24:02 that's just a disaster, right?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:04 It is. It is. It's so sad. I'm a big cancer advocate. And so the whole month of May I dedicate my Instagram to skin cancer awareness. And I have to do all of this research and find info to put on it. And I see all of these stories of, you know, men and women, teenagers, 20 year old 30 year olds dying from skin cancer, because, you know, they were tanning AND and OR using tanning beds, and it's just heartbreaking.

Nick VinZant 24:36 I thought they outlawed them in some places, right?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:39 They know. They're, they're banned in Australia. But I'm here most states and in Washington. We I was actually a woman, a young girl I should say in her 20s 20s 30s she was she died from melanoma. And her and her parents worked really hard to get a bill passed in Washington that you have to be 18 or over to use a tanning bed or have a parent signature.

Nick VinZant 25:11 What would you think is the most fascinating thing about it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 25:15 The skin isn't just fat, you know, it's our largest organ in our body and I think we forget about that because it's on the outside. But I mean, it does so many things. I mean, it regulates body body temperature, it keeps things from coming in and coming out, you know, sweat comes from it and not only you know, it's it's self repairing, I mean, you get a cut or a, you know, a wound in your skin is going to try to repair that I mean, that's pretty amazing. You not many other organs can do that and repair themselves and that's kind of where estheticians come in. We do these controlled injuries to stimulate collagen production and try to help heal the skin.

Nick VinZant 25:53 Is there really a right way to put on lotion or to dry yourself with a towel? Is that stuff true?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:01 No, no. I mean, as long as you're getting the lotion on your skin, I know a lot of times I'll see. You know, make sure you're doing upward movements on the neck. And I'm like, that's no, your skin too. Can't tell which direction we're applying it.

Nick VinZant 26:16 I saw something once though. Where you're not supposed to dry your face you pat your face.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:21 Yeah, you want to pat it, you just don't want to be too aggressive because towels can be kind of abrasive and, you know, cause irritation. And then of course, you always want to use a clean towel too, because you don't want to put any bacteria on your face as well.

Nick VinZant 26:35 I have a personal opinion that wash cloths are disgusting, and no one should be using them. Is that true?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:41 I kind of feel the same way. I mean, but there there are some really great soft like microfiber washcloths now that are just super soft and not abrasive. And as long as you're using a new one each time, that would be fine.

Nick VinZant 26:57 Or guys embarrassed when they come in, do they try to act a certain way

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 27:00 They do some, I mean, sometimes you can tell they're a little bit hesitant but like I said, you know, the last couple years guys have really started to get into skincare. And, and a lot I have some followers that are guys and they're so knowledgeable, knowledgeable about it too. So that sometimes Yeah, they are a little embarrassed especially a lot of times guys are coming in for like acne related problems so they're already a little self conscious to begin with.

Nick VinZant 27:31 I used to be a TV news anchor. And I had an agent that recommended like your eyebrows are too pointy you need to get that taken care of of. It was kind of nice. I'm not gonna lie.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 27:44 Yeah, I do see that. And I do a lot of laser hair removal on guys too. And you know, they love it knows that that kind of gets them into the arena to and starts to get make them think about doing things.

Nick VinZant 27:58 Do you have any advice For somebody with splotchy facial hair

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:03 in what regard?

Nick VinZant 28:07 I can't grow a beard, and I just feel stupid.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:10 Yeah, well, they do do beard transplants and hair transplants have really come a long way. They look really amazing. I mean, you can't even tell anymore. You could also try doing PRP injections in the area to see if that stimulates some hair growth and PRP is when we draw blood from you. We spin it to separate it and then we take the PRP which is basically liquid gold, it's just full of like growth factors and all this good stuff. And then they can inject it into the areas to help stimulate hair growth. Do it a lot on people who are having, you know, losing hair on their head

Nick VinZant 28:51 They can do that for male pattern baldness.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:55 Yes they can do it for balding but not bald. There still there still has to be some You know, follicles in the area?

Nick VinZant 29:03 That is That seems to be the big thing for guys right when they lose their hair?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 29:08 Oh, definitely. I think it's an issue for guys that they don't really I mean, it definitely affects their self confidence and I just don't think it's talked about enough and it's not made normal enough to, you know, try and fix the issue so guys just live with it a lot of times and it affects them.

Nick VinZant 29:27 If people are kind of interested in booking an appointment with you, they want to follow you what should they do?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 29:33 So Instagram is probably the best way to get in touch with me. My Instagram handle is the dot master dot s petition with an A in front of it. And that has all of my info on there where I'm located. I'm opening up a business as soon as all of this COVID stuff is over and it'll be in Bellevue area and you can see all my before and afters and stuff like that kind of get to know me. And you can also always shoot me an email and my email is the master esthetician@gmail.com.

Nick VinZant 30:09 I want to thank Reanne so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we've linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included information about how to contact her on the RSS feed that's on this podcast, her Instagram. It's, if you really like pimple popping videos as a place to be man. That's the place to be.

Professional Companion Stacy X

What's a Professional Companion? It's a new term, for an old profession. Stacy X joins us for an inside look at a secretive industry that's more than what it seems. We talk unusual requests, famous clients and empowering women. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Places to have Excess Body Hair.

Interview with Stacy Robertson

Speakers

Nick VinZant - Profoundly Pointless Host

Stacy Robertson - Professional Companion

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to talk to a professional companion, and then count down the top five worst places to have excess body hair.

Stacy Robertson 0:28

I would say people outside of the industry tend to think that it's really all just about sex or kind of high level prostitution. But it's actually not. You know how to do that and how to meet those needs. Ideally, most of these men would love to have their needs met at home. They would prefer to be having sex with their wives and they would be with, you know, me or somebody else. But the reality is, every single day I'm willing to face rape, assault, murder, every single day that I opened my door to someone, the view is that I've met some women that I tell you what they are a force to be reckoned with in this industry, and it has been very empowering for me as a woman.

Nick VinZant 1:12

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. Our first guest is fascinating. It's just a fascinating story. She's a professional companion. And if you don't know what that is, it's basically a high end escort. And she gives us this really interesting look at what a sex workers life is really like. That includes everything from dangerous situations, married men, unusual requests. And even some famous clients that you might have heard of. This is professional companion, Stacy Robertson.

Nick VinZant

So essentially how did you become a professional companion

Stacy Robertson 2:02

So I have a master's degree in counseling and I'm 20 years as a child and family therapist. And I got really burnt out. And after 20 years of being in this tournament Initially, I came in as a girl into the adult industry, and because I could do my full time job during the day, and then I work at night, like from 10pm or 11pm to three in the morning. And then the first week of ketamine, I was like, I texted my friend and I was like, my vagina. I was like, you know what I actually prefer? I really miss the in person, aspect of connecting with people. So I did about six months of research. There are I ordered a whole bunch of books on Amazon and read a lot of websites And articles before I stepped into the industry as a companion, and then, so after about six months or so of kameen, and doing a lot of research, I put up my first ad and so that I could, that I could just kind of rest and recover from a long time of working in crisis and, you know, pretty high intense cases as a therapist, So a professional companion and an escort is that the same thing or is that technically different? I consider it to be the same thing. Yeah, I think that there's been kind of an industry to move away from the term of escort because it has some negative connotations, perhaps. And also, you know, professional companion really emphasizes more around the relationships and that are developed and the connection that you have during because that's really what a lot of people want. I would say people outside of the industry tend to think that it's really all just about sex or kind of high level prostitution. But it's actually not

Nick VinZant 4:02

the elephant in the room question like, when you do this, are you having sex with people or not? Or does it depend? Stacy Robertson 4:10 Yeah, so it really just depends. So, ultimately, you know, on the front end, it's always about my time. So a person will, you know, connect with me to spend time with me and that's ultimately what they're paying for is, you know, my ability to connect and to make them feel, you know, adored and appreciated and, and in my kind of therapy worlds, I would my ability to be present with them. And then as adults, you know, if we choose to do something else with that times, and then we then we can do that, and yes, that does happen,

Nick VinZant 4:43

but they're not specifically paying for that necessarily.

Stacy Robertson 4:47 Correct. Yeah. And if anybody wants, like, I don't typically attract those kind of clients anyways. And so, you know, if someone kind of comes at me, and that's what they want, or they're approaching me, you Yourprimary role or function or what I enjoy the time together with people, so,

Nick VinZant 5:12

but do you feel more pressure like okay, yeah, maybe I will do this, maybe I won't, but there is pressure there, like does the money involve, make you make a decision that maybe you normally wouldn't make?

Stacy Robertson 5:28

No, not for me. It doesn't. And I would say that generally speaking, yes, there is an underlying assumption that the possibility is there. You know, when when anyone says that appointment when I scheduled an appointment like that, yeah, that's the underlying assumption is that we may, you know, that door can be open, just depending on how the interaction goes, you know, someone may not be you know, they may find that they're totally not and, you know, and that's okay too. Or, you know, it may they may have you know, other kinds of issues going on that it doesn't go down that route. But the doors is definitely there for it to happen if we choose to.

Nick VinZant 6:08

Have you ever had somebody get, you know, angry when it doesn't happen?

Stacy Robertson 6:13

I have not. No, I've had very positive actually very positive experiences with, you know, gentlemen or clients in the industry. Very few. I know that it seems like it might be common to have a more negative experience for people who are just kind of jerks. But that's not the case. Most of the people I encounter are actually very, very cordial, very polite, a lot of them are married and have families, they own businesses and, you know, so they're not out there trying to, you know, be mean to people typically.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Are they looking for sex? Are they really looking for just companionship?

Stacy Robertson 6:57 I would say that they claim that They're looking for sex. But the reality is they're looking for connection, you know, at least for me, in my sessions and, you know, I, I tend to be as a therapist I was what's called string space and solution focused which works really well for the adult industry because I'm you know, it doesn't matter what someone looks like when they show up at my door, you know, I'm going to find all the things that are just awesome about them, and that I adore about them and, you know, find ways to connect and to talk and to laugh and giggle and they are my number one priority in that hour. I make them feel like I don't have my attention anywhere else. And and I enjoy that. And there's, to me a therapeutic value in that as well. Because it doesn't happen very often. today's day and age people are, you know, their relationships are strained. They're struggling. They're, you know, I don't know, I don't know that people really take time to really be with one another.

Nick VinZant 7:58

You mentioned some of the men were married. Do their wives know or is it a secret

Stacy Robertson 8:06

Yeah. And that's a really, really good question because I do get, I get asked that a lot even from so I choose to be open in my life, my, my real name, I am transparent about what I do with my family members, my friends, my colleagues, everyone knows, I don't go to the PTA and announce it. But if someone asks me, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to share with them and tell them so I get asked that question quite a bit. And ultimately, what I believe foundational truth for me is that people have a right to have their needs met. And if they're not having that in a relationship, and I would say that's primarily, like, I think that people have the perception that, you know, men who do this are just kind of jerks and they just want to, you know, they're sex addicts and and, you know, they just want to get off and That's all their focus and you're just stepping out, you know, being an ass about it. But that's not actually the case. Most of the men that I know who do this, they're not getting any sex at home and haven't in months, or years. And that is it's shocking to me. It's appalling to me. And, and there's times that I just want to shake wives and say, Hey, you know, please connect with and meet the needs of your husband. And, and maybe he's not either, you know, there's obviously some dynamics that are happening and relationships just are not working for people. So that's the place that I come from is that ultimately he has been met at homosexual needs, he is going to find a way to meet them. That is how human nature is and works. And there's all kinds of avenues you know, for how you know how to do that and how to meet those needs. Ideally, most of these men would love to have their needs met at home, they would prefer to be having sex with their wives and they would be with, you know, me or somebody else. So I, you know, and when I have an appointment, I actually hold that relationship. Kind of this might sound odd, but that's okay. Because I'm an energetic practitioners well studied Eastern and Western philosophies and all kinds of alternative medicine and all kinds of alternative things. So I create a space where I create space for their relationship to be there with us and kind of hold that sacredness. And my hope is that anything that we do, you know, in all of our talking and all of our interaction, that this gentleman goes out into the world, a better person, that he feels happier, he feels more connected, that he might be more likely to connect with his family, with his wife, with you know, be nicer when he's driving on the road. You know, so Maybe it's Pollyanna in nature, the way that I view things, but that's really what's important to me. And I feel like for the most part, the feedback that I get is that that's what happens is that you know, someone is able to leave and feel better about themselves and sit and I also just endorsed not feeling shame and guilt about what you want and what you need. And a lot of people struggle with that still, they struggle with feeling validated that they have a right to have sexual desires. I feel like most men feel really guilty about that. And women don't understand. They don't understand maybe the nature of a man's brain, his body, his relationship with his penis, you know, and the need to and men struggle with with vocalizing those things. So there's still a lot of room for us to grow in our culture around talking about sex and connecting with ourselves about sex. is still a very taboo subject. Now obviously, as a woman, you know, I don't want to hurt anyone at all, you know, and you know, if I have run into situations where I happen to have yes or no in the community someone's you know, partner also humanizes the experiment, you know, puts a name and a face to, you know, this woman who's on the other side of this relationship, you know, for perhaps the client.And so I just really practice not judging and allowing myself to feel difficult feelings around like, yeah, this doesn't feel very good. And I know that it wouldn't feel very good to her. She knew that. But I also recognize that there's a deeper issue in the relationship than just what's happening, you know, at the surface. And so, I still feel, you know, valid and being able to say like, hey, there's there's something here that's broken and needs to be fixed. But it's not necessarily my industry or my role in the industry. If that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 13:06 It does. So your first time that you did this, what was that? Like? Were you nervous? Did you know what to expect?

Stacy Robertson 13:15 I was very, very nervous. And I actually really grateful that I just feel blessed. Because my actual first experience, you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know. And I, you know, I actually put myself in danger. And so I look back at that and I'm like, oh, my goodness, thank goodness that I was okay. And, you know, so, I, you know, I met up with someone who have you given me a lot of information and, you know, was we were outside it was late at night, you know, and so it was really kind of awkward, and it was my you know, spidey senses were kind of going off, but I just didn't know what I didn't know. And at the time, even though done a lot of research, you know, you still just think I'm not sure exactly what to expect. And, and the safety aspect is certainly a big issue and something that, you know, you want to especially women in the industry feel, you know, a lot of them feel very unsafe because, you know, we're meeting people who are strangers to us that we don't know. And we don't know, you know, we're, we're in our personal proximity to them. So our bodies and our homes and our, you know, whatever, are kind of vulnerable, so to speak. So, it was, yeah, it was a little nerve wracking. And I would say the first probably year and a half that I was in the industry, I was really timid about it. And then this last almost a year now, I've, I just kind of said, You know what, I'm gonna own this, I'm gonna own my role. I'm gonna own This is who I am and this is what I do, and I'm gonna go with it. And when I did that it made a huge difference. Are you really highly sexual in the first place? You know, I would not have initially considered myself to be highly sexual. But I, I also think that if I'm comparing myself to people that are in the industry, you know, I'm pretty girl next door and on a funny note kind of vanilla for someone who does have as much sexual experiences I do. I get some good laughs about that. But, you know, overall, maybe compared to other women, or even if I compared myself to, you know, previous versions of myself in my life, I certainly am more sexual now than I ever have been. But that's been a journey. Since for about the last nine years or so, pretty much after I turned 40 I just got really invested in Canada. Been with my body and understanding my body better, and understanding pleasure and how to have more pleasure. That's been. And that's been it's been a fun journey to learn how to take that. So

Nick VinZant 16:13

how much do you charge? Like, how much money can you make doing this?

Stacy Robertson 16:17

Well, you can make a lot of money. I mean, I, you know, my, my rate is three, I'm trying to think of what I'm at right now, like $350 an hour. And so it just depends on how many, you know, clients that you're able to see in a week or want to see I don't tend to, you know, I tend to err are probably unless, so I might see one to two a day. And usually I just work Monday through Fridays, but sometimes I do evenings or weekends, just depending on the person.

Nick VinZant 16:53

what's the downside? Like, why aren't more people doing this? Gosh, there's tons of downsides. I mean, I think that so there's a huge amount of stigma that is associated, you know, with this, there's legal issues that are associated with it, that you have to be very mindful and very careful about their safety issues. You know, I mean, as I say, I mean, I could, I can vet someone, but the reality is, every single day, I'm willing to face rape, assault, murder, every single day that I opened my door to someone and force for me to feel that passionate about what I do that I'm willing to face those things. You know, it really says something about the industry also and how important it is. The other downside is people get, you know, I mean, there's people who have stalkers, there's people who lose their family members, and friends because of it. You know, because outside of the industry, it's really difficult for people to understand you The work that we do, and the risks that we face, and, you know, and then judgment around, you know, because there's a lot of kind of alternative lifestyle, and fetishes that I'm now familiar with that I, you know, wasn't familiar before coming into the industry. And you know, a lot of people have judgments about those things. So, I would say that that's the primary reason that most people, you know, they use a persona and a fake name and an alias and take all kinds of measures to protect themselves. I just, I, I was mentored by someone else in the industry who she also uses her real name and she's very authentic. She's 10 years older than me. And it just mattered to me to be more congruent and authentic with who I am and transparent. And I'm willing to have those difficult conversations with people in my personal life. And so it's also I just consider it to be a luxury as well. I'm educated and articulate, and therefore I feel a sense of, you know, really wanting to advocate for the industry or take a stand and say, Hey, you know, this, this isn't as bad as what people think that it is. And there's lots of us who are who are doing this. And we are, you know, great and empowered women. Because I think that the the view is that I've met some woman that I tell you what, they are a force to be reckoned with. in this industry, and it has been very empowering for me as a woman. No, I haven't encountered at all I kind of that idea around people thinking, Oh, you're just being sex traffic or Oh, Daddy issues or, you know, I don't find that to be true. Is this legal?

Stacy Robertson 19:48

No.

Nick VinZant 19:51

But is even Okay, is it even kind of legal in the sense like, Alright, I'm not selling you drugs. I'm selling you this. A piece of paper and the drugs come free. Like, can you get it around it like that? Or is it basically like no matter how you do this, it ain't legal.

Stacy Robertson 20:09

Yeah. So that would explain kind of what it is. Yeah. So it's basically I'm selling you my time. You know, you're, you're paying to spend time with me. And if nothing else occurs, then great. That's a bonus. And that's kind of the workaround for, you know, not considering it, active prostitution. You know, that you're not actually selling a sex act, a particular sex act for money. So there's a lot of wording around that.So that people can stay, but there's, yeah,

Nick VinZant 20:52

there's not like undercover police trying to catch you or something like that.

Stacy Robertson 20:57 Yes, sir.

Nick VinZant 20:59 Did you spot him Or like, Did you get arrested? Or what? What happened?

Stacy Robertson 21:03

No, no, it's just known in the industry. I mean, they set up scenes. And I would say that's the primary way that they, you know, try to catch, you know, catch people or arrest people is through things like, you know, usually they're gonna set up for high volume. But yeah, they're always looking for me, that's the very first thing that I note or that I, you know, create awareness around when I'm talking with someone who's new is, you know, in the back of my mind, is this the police officer? And are they are there certain kinds of behaviors that they're doing that would lead me to think that maybe they are. So it's a daily thought, and you worry about that happening? Yeah, I guess I feel kind of

Nick VinZant 21:53

there's a difference, right? There's a difference between the person on the street and somebody like yourself, like one I get Guess the other I don't quite get why somebody is, how do you feel about it? Do you feel like what you're doing should be illegal? Or do you feel like it should be fine?

Stacy Robertson 22:10

I think it should be decriminalized. For sure. Because there's, you know, I would say that the the fact that it is illegal is around, you know, there's just lots of stuff, right? It's a way to oppress a certain population, it's a way to control it's a way to, you know, generate more money, lots of things. And certainly people are worried about trafficking. And yes, no one wants someone who's under aged or someone who's being coerced in the industry. You know, those are all bad things. So, you know, bad from the standpoint of not healthy or helpful for someone. But the majority of people in the industry are not that and they're not doing that, and not even anything close to that. And so and you know, this is It's considered the like, the oldest prostitute or oldest profession in the world is prostitution. So, you know, there's all of this stigma, and all of these things. But yeah, the reality is also that sex is a very, very typically a very small portion of the interaction. I mean, I have people who, you know, pay for overnight dates, and I might spend, you know, 12 hours or 24 hours with them, and we're, you know, going to concerts and going out to dinner and, and laughing and watching comedies. You know, it's like, we're spending 11 and a half hours hanging out and doing everything but sex. So there's so much more to it than, you know, some blowjob in a back alley. So,

Nick VinZant 23:53

are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Stacy Robertson 23:57

Sure.

Nick VinZant 23:58

Most interesting things. Someone has asked you to do.

Stacy Robertson 24:03

So I had a client who wanted me to dress up and so I was in hoes and heels and dress pants and a silk shirt as if I was going to the office. And they wanted me to lay on the bed with them and talk with them about how if I got really angry, I could overpower them. And then I would turn into the Hulk if I got really angry. And I mean, like for like, three hours worth of time

Nick VinZant 24:33

like specifically the Hulk

Stacy Robertson 24:35

Yeah, yeah, specifically that i would i would just turn into this Hogan in range. And not necessarily like you know, my clothes was rip off and I grow and you know, get like, like the Hulk but that Yeah, I could, I could just be really mean and I and I get really strong when I get angry and I could hurt it.

Nick VinZant 24:56

Did you get it? Or did you understand why they wanted this? Or was it Just like, okay,

Stacy Robertson 25:02

no, yeah. And of course, you know, the therapist in me is I love trying to understand human behavior and why people do what they do. So in the back of my mind, I, you know, there were times that I'm like, What is going on here? You know, and I and I've had other requests to, especially like foot fetishes and things like that. And I can't say, I mean, what I did get it with this particular person is that, you know, they're, you know, probably like an engineer, like our profession, very type a, you know, they were in, you know, higher up in management and things. And so, a lot of times that will lend itself to someone who wants to be more submissive in the bedroom, if they've been, you know, very kind of in a powerful position outside. But at the same time, it's a very, it was a very unique request. And so, yeah, I wasn't really sure why, but I was willing to, you know, I was willing to try and And see if that would make them happy.

Nick VinZant 26:05

Most you have made in a week.

Stacy Robertson 26:10

Let's see most of made in a week. Probably had a close to $5,000 a week before. That's pretty good money.

Nick VinZant 26:22

Now is that from one person or is that just from?

Stacy Robertson 26:27

No Yeah, from multiple like one time I had to, like the week of Christmas. I think it was I had two overnights that week actually. And those are like 2020 $500 a pop. So yeah, I made actually I probably made 7000 that week.

Nick VinZant 26:44

Would anybody listening know any of your clients? Okay, so that implies like, if there's just regular random listeners, if I've had a client that would be no, were they right? Yeah. Like somebody who people would know who that person is?

Stacy Robertson 27:07

At least locally? Yes

Nick VinZant 27:08

Can you name the industry? Now, I'm really curious Let me ask, Can I ask you this business or athletics related?

Stacy Robertson 27:19

Both

Nick VinZant 27:25

Younger or older.

Stacy Robertson 27:37

Both, but mostly older

Nick VinZant 27:37

Okay, last question. And last question in this regard, if on a one on a scale of like one, they're just kind of famous, like, maybe somebody has heard of them somewhere some day like, in a town of in a town of 100 people, they're known 10 like worldwide global celebrity, where would you put them at in That list from like, least to most famous.

Stacy Robertson 28:06

Let's see. So, probably like a five.

Nick VinZant 28:10

It's still pretty good. That's like yeah, that's like a not really well watched Hollywood movie kind of famous.

Stacy Robertson 28:20

Yeah, like a well known actress.

Nick VinZant 28:26

how does you know how to family and friends feel about it.

Stacy Robertson 28:34

I just feel really, really blessed. You know, my family and my friends have been just incredible. But, you know, I think too, they know me. And so, I will tell you this is kind of funny when I sat my mom down a couple years ago. And it was like, around Mother's Day or my birthday or something like that. I said, Mom, I've got something to tell you and said okay, so I told her and she just looked at me and Through all Do you have anything to say? And she's like, at least you're not pregnant again.

Nick VinZant 29:12

yeah, that's

Stacy Robertson 29:16

that's all she had to say. Most of them just asked me, you know, my kids, my sons are older. And you know, I've got kids that are in there. My daughter's turning 30. And then most of them are in their 20s and some teenagers. So they just ask, Are you being safe? Are you safe? You know? And I said, Yeah, that's about it. I'm like, Okay, cool. Are you happy? Yeah. All right.

Nick VinZant 29:38

It's such an interesting thing, right? Because you do what you do, and people would have a certain kind of reaction to that. And then there's people who might be like, a lawyer, and they've ripped off thousands of people or you're the head of a company, and we pollute the environment. And that's totally acceptable, but what you do, like mmm hmm

Stacy Robertson 30:00

Yeah, I feel like I represent kind of breaking some mold around. You know, yes, I have a master's degree in 20 years experience as a child and family therapist, and then yes, I'm a mother of, you know, I've given birth to eight children. And then yes, I do this. And so it's like, you know, it's kind of mind blowing to people when they're, you know, I can see him Just look at me and try to take it all in, like you said, What? You do what? And that's the fun part. But I also think that that's the important part is because, you know, with everything that's going on in the world right now to like, we put people in these boxes, and we stereotype them and we make assumptions about who they are and what they do. And the reality is that we're all just, we're humans, and, you know, we all have mothers, you know, we're all someone someone cares about us, you know, regardless of our skin color in our religion in our profession, and it's like, let's get past some of that it'sabout damn time Because of what you do for a living? Can you find joy in like companionship outside of this? Or does it make it more difficult to kind of have a real relationship? Yeah, and this is what is actually exciting. So I love this question. My partner and I are actually going to create a podcast together. So yes, I am actually in a relationship and have been for, I don't know, probably about six months now. And it was someone who I met as a client, they were a client first. And it's a very interesting dynamic. It's certainly, you know, as with any relationship, it takes work, and it takes, you know, being transparent and a lot of communication and, and I would say that there's a good chunk of people who are in the industry who are in relationships, but I feel like the perception outside of the industry is that is that women aren't in relationship or that they don't you know, Perhaps don't deserve a relationship. Or people say, well, who would date someone who, you know, does what you do. And that's why, you know, I'm going to be talking about that even a lot more and just, you know, some of the struggles that we have faced, and how we've gotten through those things and, and how we what kind of conversations that we have, you know, from trust, and then, you know, how do I keep things private? Also, so, there's an element with my work, right, that, you know, I'm not going to reveal everybody's personal information, who's my clients like discretion, and being discreet as a part of that process? But it works and it works really well. I mean, I'm thrilled, I feel like I met my my full name, like he's fucking awesome. And he, he loves what I do. And he, you know, he's supportive and in a lot of ways, and of course, he understands that side of me but also So if we talk about how, you know, when I, when I go to work, I go to work, and there's a kind of a uniform per se that I have, there's some mental emotional things that I do to kind of go into the office, so to speak, which is how I approach it. And then there's my personal life. And so certainly some of those things might overlap. But you know, him being now on the side of he's not on the client side anymore. And I told him when we first started dating and I was like, you better put on your seatbelt because now you're in my personal life and now you know, you're going to see like the whole behind the scenes and, and you know, who I am on the regular, you know, on a regular basis, not just who I am for this hour of time that I have, you know, with someone and it's been really good.

Nick VinZant 33:48 I want to thank Stacy so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also in Included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. And I'm really curious to let us know what you guys think about this. Because there's definitely some areas where you can feel one way one minute and feel completely the other way. The other minute. As you probably heard, she's also going to be starting a podcast of her own. So check back and we'll make sure that we update the RSS feed with the link to that podcast when it gets off the ground. I think. I think it's gonna be really interesting. I really do.

Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau

Are we alone in the universe? That's the question Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau spends every day trying to answer. In this in-depth interview, we talk finding life on other planets, Shadow Biospheres here on Earth and what happens if we find intelligent life - or it finds us. Then, because we all have that only sketchy cousin, we countdown the Top 5 Annoying Family Members.

Interview with Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Graham Lau: Astrobiologist / Cosmobiologist

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're talking astrobiology and annoying relatives.

Dr. Graham Lau 0:24 Astrobiology is our quest to understand life. And that's all of life. So life here on Earth, the potential for life elsewhere, how life started here, how it's evolved here, whether or not we could find it elsewhere. The idea of this shadow biosphere, so a lot of our methods, in chemistry in biology are very much based on life as we know it. And so the question is, you know, could we be missing out? So much so that there could even be living things on earth that aren't life as we know it? And I love these ideas like you know, what else could there be? Could there be mineral life forms, could an entire planet be considered a living being, we're now thinking that there's at least something like 1.6 planets for every star. And so now we're looking at several hundreds of billions, maybe even a trillion planets in our galaxy alone, which means other galaxies might be also a very rich in planets. And if that's the case, then it really starts to feel like it would be a huge waste of space. If we're the only show in town.

Nick VinZant 1:25 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I'm sure that all of us at some point in our lives have looked up at the night sky and wondered what else is out there? Is there any other life out there? And if there is, is it going to be like us? Or is it different in ways that we could never even imagine? Our first guest is one of the people leading that search for extraterrestrial life. And in that search, there's some really big questions about how life on Earth started. What exactly is life? Where could we find it in the solar system and even beyond? And then what happens? If we do find it? This is astrobiologists. Dr. Graham. Wow. So, astrobiology that's essentially looking for life on other planets, right.

Dr. Graham Lau 2:24 Youknow, I get that a lot. But it's more than that. Really. astrobiology I guess from a NASA they kind of have like, their standard way of explaining astrobiology is trying to understand the origins, evolution, and distribution of life in the universe. But when I think about astrobiology, what really hits me first is that astrobiology is our quest to understand life. And that's it. I mean, all of life. So life here on Earth, the potential for life elsewhere, how life started here, how it's evolved here, whether or not we could find it elsewhere. And it's a really important thing. You know, it's one of those deeper questions we've had with us. And, you know, before we started writing down our questions, you know, we wanted to know, like, you know, why are we here? What is this place? What is around us? Are we thinking? Are we alone? Is there more than what we see?

Nick VinZant 3:16 So do we know how life on Earth started?

Dr. Graham Lau 3:20 We definitely don't. And it is because there's a great field out there and the origin of life research, where people are working really hard to try to figure out how life might have started here on Earth. There's a question, you know, what was like brought here from elsewhere, like maybe from Mars or Venus maybe, and then crashed here and then start evolving? Or did like start here? And so people are doing experiments and modeling and trying to figure out whether or not life started here? If so, where and how, and when? Those are huge questions.

Nick VinZant 3:52

Do we have any kind of an answer like what's the best theory so far?

Dr. Graham Lau 3:57

That's a great question. We have some ideas right now. For instance, David Beamer and Bruce damer recently released a paper on their hot spring hypothesis for the origin of life, where they posit that life had to have dry land on Earth, specifically around hot springs, and hot spring environments with a lot of wedding and then drying cycles going back and forth, to allow for the chemicals of life. These biological molecules that form all of life as we know it for those molecules who have formed, they hypothesize that you need this dry, hot spring environment where they're wetting and drying going on back and forth. However, there are others who think that maybe life started on the bottom of the ocean around hydrothermal vents. Ever since the 1970s. We've been exploring these these events on the ocean floor where we're superheated seawater moving through the crust is bringing out a whole bunch of metals and other elements in a high tunnel. torture regime and making these big chimneys that we call black smokers. And so something maybe life could have started there, which also gives us good reason to then wonder if we could find life in some of the icy worlds of our solar system like Europa or Enceladus. But the true answer is we really don't know yet. You know, we have some ideas of what the you know, the early early days for life could have looked like, what kind of things might have happened along the way for creating the first cells and for for starting the process of having a genetic code that can evolve through time that that can replicate and make more molecules and can evolve through time, through billions of years to make us.

Nick VinZant 5:40

So I mean, if it essentially came from somewhere else, life would basically just hitch a ride on an asteroid. Or a meteor or whatever the correct word would be?

Dr. Graham Lau 5:51

Yeah, exactly. So there's this idea of panspermia, which has actually been with us for a very long time. The term to my knowledge was first coined by annex sagaris In ancient Greece, and the idea has been molded through time with us as well, but the idea of panspermia is that and then the word literally means seeds everywhere. And the idea is that maybe life could be seated on Earth from somewhere else and vice versa. In that case, so you know, we have these, you know, asteroid bombardment, that you know, when large things strike the earth or the moon or other worlds. Sometimes during that process, the rocks on that world can actually be launched into space due to the impact. And we've done lots of modeling to show that life as we know, it could survive inside of one of those rocks being launched off the planet, and then transported through space, and even through the process of crashing onto another planet. And so it is quite possible, but currently, we don't have any evidence that it's ever actually happened. But it is a really intriguing idea for us to study. Of course, you know, if panspermia did happen, we Still have the problem of the origin of life, it still had to start somewhere and somehow, but there are some out there who are wondering, maybe maybe life could have started in a more favorable environment on Mars, for instance. Or maybe in the early solar system, maybe Venus was a really cool place to be for living things. And maybe life came here, Mars, Venus. When people start talking about panspermia from outside of the solar system, it's still quite possible, but you start losing the probability because of the distances between stars, for things, things that have traveled through space through time.

Nick VinZant 7:33

When we are talking about the origin of life and going back millions of years or however long ago, were other planets in the solor system more habitable than Earth.

Dr. Graham Lau 7:45

Yes, that's one of the reasons I love Venus so much. It's such a beautiful world. It's Earth twin, really, as far as its size and its composition is concerned. Earth is far more dense, but Venus is still a very intriguing world. And early in the early in the solar system, Venus was very likely far more earth like than it is now. It would have been right in that beautiful area around a star called the Goldilocks zone where liquid water could survive on the surface. And there's some people out there who've done modeling to suggest there could have been oceans on Venus long ago. But Venus these past billion years or 500 million years or so has undergone not only a runaway greenhouse effect that has created this very thick atmosphere, the pressure of the surface of Venus is about 92 times more than the pressure we have here at sea level on Earth. So it's very thick. And because of the runaway greenhouse effect, sunlight gets absorbed and stuck inside just like you know, the greenhouse that we have going on right now, you know, climate here on Earth, and the warming of our planet. That warming happened on Venus, you know, in an amazing way to the surface of Venus is very close to 900 degrees Fahrenheit on average, which is pretty darn warm. And nothing that we know as far as life is concerned can currently survive on the surface of Venus. However, you know long ago maybe something did live there maybe maybe Venus had a biosphere long ago,

Nick VinZant 9:17

when you guys kind of classify things like what are what is considered life?

Dr. Graham Lau 9:23

It's kind of intriguing, right?We actually do not know what life is. Exactly. And so you'll hear people talk about this, they're gonna like, what is life is a huge question. And it's kind of important question for us to, to do astrobiology and to search not just for life as we know it somewhere else. But for us to even try to contemplate you know, life as we don't know like life is different than life here on earth. We kind of have to have a good working idea what life is. Now there have been several hundred, you know, suggestions for what a definition of life could be. Sometimes you might hear what's called the NASA definition of life. And that is that life is a self contained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution. And it's a pretty good definition. But it misses out in a lot of ways. For instance, you know, if we create artificial intelligence, or if humans ourselves become a post biological being, and integrate ourselves into our computers, and our machines are refill alive, at that point, is that life? And that's a huge question. There could be forms of life out there that kind of really break through some of these definitions we've had. And you know, currently, a lot of us are learning a lot more about viruses right now. For instance, the virus has always been, you know, kind of on this fringe of trying to understand life. I remember as a kid, you know, we were told viruses are not alive. That's what the textbook said. And now, you know, I'm not actually sure myself I kind of think of viruses as as some part of life that they are some kind of Living biological machine. And so you know, it's intriguing. There's a lot of questions about what life really is. And if you really want to go off the deep end, then, you know, trying to figure out what life is It's hard enough but then trying to figure out what intelligence is, or even worse, what consciousness is. Those become some really huge questions.

Nick VinZant 11:19

I feel like you get a lot of headaches, do you get a lot of headaches? Just thinking about all this stuff?

Dr. Graham Lau 11:24

You know? I don't know. Like, it's actually it's kind of fun, right? Like, you can sit down and just for hours, just mall through the potential for, for what is life? What could be out there? You know, I grew up watching so much science fiction, and reading science fiction stories and playing science fiction video games. And I love these ideas like, you know, what else could there be? Could there be mineral life forms? Could an entire planet be considered a living being? Could there be living things that can survive in space and not only survive, but actually thrive in the environment of space? And there are so many questions about what's called

Nick VinZant 12:00

Howdy How do you study a place where you can go?

Dr. Graham Lau 12:04

Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, astrobiologists we all we all come to the field from, you know, different backgrounds. Some astrobiologists are studying oceanography and trying to better understand those hydrothermal vents. Some astrobiologists focus almost solely in the realm of microbiology, and they try to understand the evolution of various, you know, ways that that microbes have lived on earth and how they function through time and how their their enzyme to function through time. Some astrobiologists are doing a lot of planetary science, and they're trying to figure out where on the surfaces or the interiors of other worlds could we find life. Me Myself, I came from a geochemistry background. So originally, I started off studying biology and chemistry. I then spent some time studying astrophysics before finally jumping into my PhD in geology, where I really focused in geochemistry and mineralogy. And so for me, I was looking I'm not just to work on the paper right now, from some research back in 2014 already, where we went up to the Arctic to a place called Ellesmere Island. It's one of the farthest north land and NASA's on the planet to a place a valley called Borg fjord past where in this valley, there's a glacier. And on top of the glacier water coming up from the surface below, is coming out and depositing the large mass of yellow material on the ice. And that yellow material is sulfur. And so we've been studying the kinds of organisms that thrive in this sulfur material on top of the glacier, what they can teach us about software and its role in biology. What the mineralogy and geochemistry can tell us about not just that site and other polar environments, but also what we might find if we go out you know, to a world say, like Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, which has an icy surface, and a lot of sulfur on its icy surface. So, you know, can we use some of the tools we developed and the techniques and the knowledge we developed from this site here on earth and the Arctic and apply that to looking for life on Jupiter's moon Europa was a lot of us astrobiologists that are doing that kind of work. We're trying to understand what are the signs of life or bio signatures? What What, what diagnostic evidence is given to us from living processes that we can find?

Nick VinZant 14:34

What are some of the basic like building blocks, that a place needs to even have that is there some basic things that you have to have this you have to have that in order for life to start?

Dr. Graham Lau 14:45

You know, in the long history of us trying to define and characterize life? There are some of those key things we've come up with you know that that life has to have energy life has to have a metabolism. Life has to grow. It has to evolved, and from these kinds of things, and so had a very base, kind of understanding that that's kind of when we start looking for, for instance, with the Viking landers on Mars back in the 1970s. We sent them there they were the first and so far the only missions to Mars that were specifically looking for life. And on board, they had four biological tests. But in general, three of those biological tests were very much based on life as we know it, assuming that that life on Mars would be some kind of organism like we know here and would produce the same kinds of chemicals, if it was metabolizing material that we gave it. And unfortunately, we you know, we didn't have a positive confirmation. We do have a potentially questionable a result from one of the experiments that has never been confirmed. And so we'd be saying that we you know, we did not detect life because of that. And actually the next Mars rover from NASA project severence will be the next spacecraft on Mars, the next rover on Mars to actually look for signs of life after the Viking landers but when we start looking for these signs, you know what we're looking for, there's a lot of things we can look at, if we got really lucky, and we found something walking in front of our camera, you know, or like the little like, multi leg or if we were in the red with oceans with fins keep swimming by us. That'd be pretty cool, right? That's, that's a no brainer. You know, we we could look at that and say, hey, that's life. But you know, if we only have chemistry to look at say we're looking for signs of past life in a rock on Mars, then we might look at look at some of the chemical signatures that remain from living processes. When life is you know, metabolizing it can leave behind some signatures of those metabolisms. For instance, it can it can cause a differentiation in the isotopes that are present in a rock sample for us to study. We also can look for things like the left handedness and right handedness of molecules So it turns out in chemistry, just like you have your left hand, your right hand, and they're mirror images of each other. But if you lay them one on top of the other, your thumbs don't line up. So just like we have left hand and right hand that are mirror images, but aren't the exact same. There are molecule, many of them that are mirror images, and yet aren't the theme. And life as we know, it actually has a preference for the left handed or the right handed. For our amino acids. It's one way for our sugars, it's another way. And so we actually wonder, you know, could other life out there, if it is out there also have that selection for left handedness or right handedness in certain molecule? And so we can look for that. And there's actually a whole realm of these bio signatures, things that we're trying to trying to understand. Are they definitive signs of life? And if so, you know, can we find them on another world?

Nick VinZant 17:53

How do we, I mean, is there a chance though, that we're just testing in the wrong way, so to speak?

Dr. Graham Lau 17:59

Absolutely. A really cool paper came out some years back by Carol Cleveland and Chris Koba, where they hypothesize that there could be a shadow biosphere here on Earth, the idea of this shadow biosphere. So a lot of our methods, in chemistry in biology are very much based on life as we know it. And so the question is, you know, could we be missing out? So much so that there could even be living things on Earth, that aren't life as we know it? And so we actually don't see them because they're in this shadow biosphere that we're not observing. And it's a really good question, you know, and the truth is, we just don't know it's one reason why scientifically we want to be as agnostic as possible when it comes to you know, looking for these potential bio signatures. So that we you know, we are we are doing our due diligence, to try to look for any potential sign of life even if even if it's like as we don't know it.

Nick VinZant 18:56

To kind of maybe understand this I guess in like the dumb guy way. This rock is actually a living thing. And we just didn't realize it.

Dr. Graham Lau 19:05

But there are other things in nature that we haven't quite explained yet. So one of the best examples actually does come from Iraq. One of the examples they used in this original paper is desert varnish. So if anyone's ever gone out into, you know, a desert area like the American Southwest, or, you know, other desert regions around the planet, you might have noticed, you know, that some of the rocks have this dark coating on the outside. And indeed, many many ancient peoples indigenous peoples around around the globe, found those rocks and wood actually etch petroglyphs into the into that that that outer dark material, they realized they could just they could just chip that dark material away on the outside of these rocks. And we find a lot of ancient petroglyphs inside of this this rock varnish. But that rock varnish or desert varnish, as it's called, we still don't know entirely is that being caused by a biological phenomenon, organism are causing it, or if it's being caused by an inorganic process of chemistry alone. And so it's possible and this was partly a part of that original shadow biosphere idea was that maybe desert varnish is part of some unknown living process that we just don't know how to look at yet.

Nick VinZant 20:16

I mean, there seems to be and look, I think that any, anybody who's listened to this and any episodes where we talk to scientists, there's always a lot of kind of unknowns. But is this stuff that we can ever find out?

Dr. Graham Lau 20:27

It's a great question, right? I mean, it's like our physics right now. I mean, there's so much that we don't know about things like black holes, and what happens inside of them. We use our knowledge of science, science as a tool to help us better understand our place in the cosmos. But it will, you know, it will always have limitations based on our own abilities. And our science now is way different than science was 100 years ago. And likewise, 100 years from now, science may be very different as well, and we'll hopefully have better tools for better understanding the universe. Now very recently, we started using gravitational waves to look at other phenomena in the universe. And so when it comes to astrobiology and understanding, you know, if there could be some living things out there that we just don't know how to look for yet. Maybe you know, in the not too distant future, there'll be some new instrument that we develop, that allows us to see part of that shadow biosphere

Nick VinZant 21:22

right now, where is the main focus on where life could be in our solar system

Dr. Graham Lau 21:26

in our solar system, like, like I said, I love Venus. But Venus is no longer a great candidate, at least on the surface. However, there's a place about 51 kilometers above the surface of Venus, where some people are wondering, it actually has a temperature and pressure regime there that's about the same as the surface of Earth at the ocean. And so maybe there could be something living in the clouds of Venus, but you don't care as much, because right now Mars is super sexy. A lot of people are thinking about Mars as potentially once having Had life, we now know that Mars was very wet in the distant past, and then likely lost most of its atmosphere and oceans over time. But maybe maybe we'll find signs of past life or maybe even extant life or things that are alive right now on Mars. And so we're doing a lot of work there. Also, though, the icy worlds of our solar system are, you know, really these intriguing hotspots right now for us to try to figure out, you know, if life can originate inside of an ocean, you know, around the hydrothermal vent or at the bottom of an icy shell. You know, could there be living biospheres in spite of worlds, like Europa and Enceladus? And so can can we find signs of that life through either plumes of water coming out of these worlds, or by you know, sending a lander down to the surface and trying to look at some of the ice and those places are just so intriguing. I honestly I really love Europa. We have a mission coming up soon called Europa Clipper. It will go in orbit around Europa and help us study the surface a lot more. There is a Europa lander design right now, it's not actually a fully, you know, the mission hasn't been, you know, fully guaranteed yet, but it's a really cool idea. A lot of folks have worked on to try to bring a Europa lander together. There's a lot of potential in our solar system. But then, you know, people listening might know that we now know of a confirmed confirmed over 4000 exoplanets, worlds around other stars. Now, when I was a kid, I was born, we didn't have confirmation of any exoplanets. It wasn't until the 1990s, the early 1990s that we started making the first detections and now, now over 4000, it makes me think, in the next decade, or two or three, how many 10s of thousands of exoplanets we have to look at. And as we get better and better telescope technology, with the next generation of space telescopes, we might start being able to really look into the atmospheres of these worlds, and really, look Chemistry. And it might be that for the first detections of life come from that.

Nick VinZant 24:04 I

mean, for a lay person, it basically seems like it's a certainty somewhere else, right? Like, it's just a matter of finding it.

Dr. Graham Lau 24:11

Yeah, and I'm sure you've heard that phrase before, you know that if we are the only thing, you know, it sure is a waste of space. And that comes from just doing the math when you start looking at the numbers. And when people start, we're using that phrase, when you heard that phrase in the movie contact, for instance, or heard Carl Sagan or other popularizers of science mention that phrase. That was at a time we didn't have any known exoplanets. They were just talking about stars. They were talking about the hundred billions, maybe 400 billion stars in our galaxy, and the maybe hundred billion galaxies in the known universe. Those numbers alone start suggesting a lot when you look now, with these planet confirmations we've made already, we're now thinking that there's at least something like 1.6 planets for every star. And so now we're looking at several hundreds of billions, maybe even a trillion planets. In our galaxy alone, which means other galaxies might be also very rich in planets. And if that's the case, then it really starts to feel like it would be a huge waste of space. If we're the only show in town.

Nick VinZant 25:12

This is the thing that I always wonder about, because I mean, the numbers are so huge when we start talking about them. Is there any chance that I'll be really dramatic here? Like somebody just forgot to carry the one somewhere? And then reality? It's, it's just the solar system. And we accidentally messed up the math and there isn't all of this else. Because it's just seems to me to be so like mind bogglingly huge.

Dr. Graham Lau 25:38

Yeah, that's an interesting question. It kind of kind of takes my mind into a science fiction place, actually. And so imagine if you would you know that if you were born on a planet, with an atmosphere so thick that you couldn't see the sky and so that you never saw the stars. What would you think about yourself? in hand, as an astrobiologist, he was recently on my show asked me astrobiologists for NASA astrobiology. He has a recent book out called alien oceans, where he also suggested this thought experiment using Europa. So if you were an organism born into an ocean environment under a thick, icy crust, where you never saw the stars, what and you became intelligent, like, what would you think about yourself? What would your stories what would your science be? You know, for us, most of our scientific endeavor came from trying to better understand how our lives work here on Earth, and how the stars move in the skies above. You know, the earliest humans, you know, they were very in tune with the heavens above, they watched the movements of the stars. They watch these weird things that look like stars, but mooted in strange patterns that we now call planets. And they, they wanted to know like, what's going on up there? And so you know, our science now all the things that led us to now with our smartphones and in our telecommunications Technology and our Tesla that can go self driving down the highway and all these things that we're doing now with artificial intelligence. All of that comes from those early days when we just wanted to better understand, you know, how to better grow our crops, how to better prepare for the seasons, what's happening in the skies above us. And so, you know, if you were born into a world without the stars, I mean, imagine what that would be like, what would your science be, then? You know, would you ever would you ever want to leave your world? Would you ever want to launch a rocket? Would you have any reason to and I don't know the answer to that. And the interesting thing is, even if you forgot to carry a one, when it comes to the vastness of the cosmos out there, even if you miss the number two, you really wouldn't be that far off. The numbers become so staggeringly large.

Nick VinZant 27:50

What do you think happens when we find it?

Dr. Graham Lau 27:53

Yeah, you know what, for one thing, I will have a job forever.Every astrobiologist will be automatically employed. If we find alien life, you know, there have been different ideas. And a lot of people in science fiction and film have suggested that, you know, if we find alien life, that people will go, you know, lose their minds, and they'll be they'll be riots in the streets and, you know, then there's been a huge issue and then, like, religions won't know what to do with themselves, you know, people who are religious will know to do it themselves and things like that. And I think that's not right. I think that there might be some people who would handle it in a poor manner. But I think in general, I think all of us if we found alien life, I think it'd be a good moment for us to reflect together about you know, the fact that one we are no longer unique in the universe, that there is other life. But that, you know, we give us a chance to finally start saying, Hey, you know, we are part of this biosphere. This is our life. We now have another example to go study and learn more comparative biology. At that level would teach us so much about what life really is.

Nick VinZant 29:05

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is the Fermi Paradox?

Dr. Graham Lau 29:14

the Fermi paradox, as it's called, it comes from an Italian American, a physicist named Enrico Fermi, who was working on some of the early work with you know, nuclear energy and trying to better understand physics. Fermi was out to lunch with some other scientists and, and they were discussing, you know, what we were just discussing, they were discussing the vastness of the cosmos. And Fermi brought up the issue, that if there is the alien life out there, if we can just assume, just counted as RIT that there is alien life out there and it's everywhere, all these other planets in our, in our galaxy, if there is alien life out there, and it is possible to travel faster than light and where are the aliens and Then the question then becomes, you know, because the stars are so far apart, but if we've ever learned to travel at the speed of light or faster, they would change the rate in which we can get these other stars. And if that was possible, why aren't there aliens here right now? Why aren't they visiting us? And so in this in this issue, you know, maybe there, maybe there aren't beings that can travel faster than light, maybe travel is very slow for everyone. And it does take 10s of thousands or millions of years. But let's assume that even if, even if it took, you know, a million years or more to travel between stars, fill in the history of our of our galaxy of our solar system. There's Philbin billions of years. And so even then, some beings should have been able to make it here by now. But then we have other issues. And maybe we are one of the first maybe there are other biospheres out there right now. But maybe we're one of the first ones to actually gain a level of intelligence to start asking in our selves why we're here. Another issue could be the kinds of stars that are out there. So when a star forms, it forms from these large clouds of gas, dust. And a lot of the material in there, you might have heard that a lot of our our elements of our bodies come from the nuclear engines inside of stars. That famous phrase that we are starstuff. And this comes through a process called nucleosynthesis. And it's how elements are made inside of stars. But in the very early universe in the early history of the galaxy, the earliest stars would have been almost all hydrogen all helium, there wouldn't have been enough time to make a lot of heavier elements. But as those early stars start fusing, they start making heavier elements, they explode, they push other elements out into the universe. Then other stars come around, they take in some of that material, and then they start making heavier elements. It might be that in the very, you know, the first few bits years of the history of the universe, the history of our galaxy, that there just wasn't enough heavy element material inside of planets for life to arise. Maybe life requires some of this enrichment of heavier elements. And so maybe we needed stars, like our son to make living things. And if that's the case, maybe younger stars right now are even more enriched in some of these heavy elements. And maybe they're even faster to have life, you know, originate and evolve and do some cool things. You know, we just don't know. You know, but the other the idea of Fermi's paradox of why aren't they here yet? It's an interesting one to throw your head at. And I'll throw out another potential solution. And it's what's one that you'll see pop up a lot in, in various sci fi and stuff like that. And this one is kind of that that's the cosmic Zoo idea, like a menagerie where maybe there are aliens out there everywhere, and they're all watching us. They know We're here they've been watching us evolve through time. And maybe they just think that we're not ready yet to meet them. And that'd be kind of weird too. I mean, but not unlike what we do in zoos where we you know, we put animals in the in the cages or behind glass so that we can observe them you know, maybe the Earth right now. It's just an off limits area area for aliens to watch us.

Nick VinZant 33:22

What would be stranger if we meet alien life and it's nothing like we've seen in the movies, or we meet alien life and they look exactly like us.

Dr. Graham Lau 33:33

Oh, I love that. That was a Gene Roddenberry around the time of Star Trek next generation was trying to explain you know, like, Why are all Why are all the characters humanoid? I mean, we see that a lot in science fiction. You know, a lot of the characters look very humanoid like us. And you know, a lot of that comes from storytelling, because when it comes down to it, a lot of our alien science fiction isn't really about the aliens. It's about telling human stories through the alien. In reality, you know, a lot of scientists, we really don't have a lot of reason to think that other things would look like us, at least not large multicellular organism, you know, at the salt at the smaller scale, maybe there's lots of things that look like other bacteria that we have here. Maybe cells are very common for life, you know that that seems like it could be likely that maybe the cell is a common unit for life, across the universe. And so maybe that will look similar. And maybe we'll have some things happen. Similarly, maybe organelle, for instance, will happen inside of some cells. So maybe things that have things like chloroplasts or things like our mitochondria, similar organ organelles inside of cells might have occurred. But when it comes to all the many steps that made these larger scale things like you see like our fungi and hummingbirds and humans and horses and all of this stuff, you know, that's, it was a lot of steps to get to where we are now to make this happened. And so we don't have as much of a reason to think that if we met aliens, they would look exactly like us. Especially if you look through like the history of, you know, animals on earth, if you look over the past 500 million years, for most of that period of time, the large scale organisms did not look like you know, us on an eighth and monkeys, they look a lot more like dinosaurs. And so you know, maybe maybe if large scale things do look more like more more like life on Earth, then maybe dinosaur like life is far more likely than human like life. But it does raise a good question. Maybe there are convergent, you know, scenarios in evolution that do drive similar features to occur. So for instance, having appendages makes a lot of sense. appendages allow you to find other ways to move, to get food to fight off predators to be a predator. And then, you know, like our hands have the digits on the end of them that allow us to actually interact with our environment in very special ways. And that can be a very interesting thing to have happen. convergently in evolution when it comes down to like the age looking structure of our bodies in our two arms, two legs, you know, the whole the whole structure of us. I don't think it's as likely. But I think it'd be pretty groovy if we actually met other human like organisms.

Nick VinZant 36:16

Best place right now. Like if you were a betting man, where would you bet we're gonna find it first.

Dr. Graham Lau 36:24

If I had to throw down money, and I'm gonna get some flack for this, from my my astrobiologists, friends because everyone has their favorite place. If I had to throw down money, I would say it's gonna come from exoplanets outside of the solar system, I think outside of our solar system, you know, even though I love Mars, I think we definitely should go there. I want to see humans go to Mars, to settle and to explore and to learn more about that world as well as ourselves. Like I said, I love Venus. I really love the icy moons Europa, Enceladus, Triton, Titan, but honestly with the the S Evolution of our telescope technology. As we're discovering more and more about exoplanets, our models are getting better. I think, you know, it's very likely even in our lifetimes that we're going to find potential signs of a biosphere on an exoplanet.

Nick VinZant 37:15

I hope it's gonna be I mean, I know it's not an exoplanet, but I hope somehow it's Pluto. Just as a way to get back for everybody for knocking it off of the planet status.

Dr. Graham Lau 37:24

Yeah, I mean, Pluto is an interesting little thing, right? Like, you know, even before the quote unquote demotion, in 2006, when Pluto was renamed to a dwarf planet status, even then we knew something weird was going on. On the surface of Pluto, we had Hubble Space Telescope images showing us that the surface wasn't all one persistent kind of color, which told us that there was some weird chemistry going on. So with New Horizons flying by in 2015, and just these remarkable images that came back with all the data that came back of that weird modeled ice surface With so much variation, it was just stunning. And so, you know, some people talk about the potential for an ocean inside of Pluto. I don't know if that's likely I don't think it is personally. But maybe in the distant past long ago, who knows? But it'd be pretty cool if that works. Newtonian is out there.

Nick VinZant 38:18

Best Movie about aliens?

Dr. Graham Lau 38:21

And,well, I do love science fiction that tries to get it right. I really enjoyed Europa Report. I love on science fiction channels to try to figure outyou know, what would alien life really be like?However, to me, the two films because they both hold so much importance for me. One is the film The thing based on the short story Who goes there? And that one's important because it makes us question you know, what if there is really bizarrely different alien life that can actually consume and replicating life as we know it, and then the One is the movie alien, Ridley Scott's alien, such an incredible film. And honestly that the biology presented in that film this idea of the these eggs that hatch these face huggers that then implant the host fee inside the host face this growing creature that data becomes you know more of who pops out. I really love alien. I love the whole Alien franchise. I've been a huge fan since I was a kid. So I think aliens the Nick VinZant 39:28 coolest. What do you think about like people who do the Alien Encounters thing and say like I saw an alien. I was like, What do you when you hear that stuff? What do you kind of think?

Dr. Graham Lau 39:39

First off, I never want to question someone's belief or their experience. If someone feels that they really experience something if they really believe it. I don't want to call it a question that belief or experience, but you know when it comes to science and how science works and why scientists are powerful, is that you know, science is look At evidence, looking at the data that are out there, and then formulating your opinions about what you actually saw what you observed what you experienced. But the important thing in the sciences is that it has to be something like what your conclusion for it to be really be accepted, has to be the exact same conclusions something else someone else would make, based on those theme information. And so, you know, I personally like the nighttime sky with the idea of UFOs I've seen things in the nighttime sky before that I can't personally explain. And even though I know that scientifically, we can explain about 90 or 95% something like that of all the all the claimed observations of UFOs there's still some small number that we just don't understand. However, jumping from you know, I don't know what that is, the whole way to well, it must be aliens is a pretty big jump. Because there's a lot of other things that could be first, that we should actually maybe research and try to figure out No. And there are people who are really certain there are aliens here right now. And one of the biggest questions I always have for them. If that's the case, if aliens can travel through these vast cosmic distances between stars, no, they have the technology to make those transits to hide their spaceships from us so well, to even be down here and walking amongst us. If that were the case, then why are they so bad at doing it? What Why do we see them every now and then if they were that good, we wouldn't ever see them.

Nick VinZant 41:34

That's pretty much all the questions I got what's coming up next for you, man. What research are you working on that kind of stuff.

Dr. Graham Lau 41:41

So many cool things. So I am working on a paper right now on some structures and geological structures at my field site in the Arctic, that are relevant to Mars. So these structures are very rich in iron and sulfur. They're their structures we called Gosselin's and they might be really important for our future after bye illogical studies on Mars. I'm currently doing a lot of science communication work do marble space. So I do a lot in trying to find cooler ways to share science with the public. I have my show it's asked an astrobiologist. We're funded through NASA astrobiology and we have a new astrobiologist on talking with me every month about their research about astrobiology, we know in the field and also talking about how to get into astrobiology as a career. And then also, from our I have a large number of research associates, interns, who are working with me in both science communication, as well as a project for the Center for light detection out of NASA Ames, where we're developing a knowledge base of bio signatures for astrobiologists to come together as a community and say, you know, what are the signs of life that we're looking for out there.

Nick VinZant 42:53

I want to thank Dr. Lau so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have a link to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included his information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. He's got a really cool show too, if you're really interested in learning more about astrobiology and how to become an astrobiologist, we've also included a link to his show on the RSS feed that's along with this podcast. There's just I think that's just a huge question for us, right. It's something that everybody at some point in their lives has think thought about. Are we alone?

Hand Model Talia Wray

From movies and TV, to social media and magazines, you've seen her hands everywhere. Now, meet the women behind them. Hand Model Talia Wray joins us for a behind the scenes look at hand modeling, how to care for your hands and what makes her hands so in demand. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fingers.

Interview with Hand Model Talia Wray

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

hands, people, finger, model, pinkies, long, ring finger, skin tone, wave, job, feel, nails, questions, commercial, product, world, thought, big, legs, nice

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Talia Wray: Hand Model and Actor

Nick VinZant  00:15

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're gonna talk modeling with a professional hand model and then count down the top five fingers.

Talia Wray  00:27

So that was really like the first time that I was booked for like a hand modeling job is like you don't want to be distracted from the product. So something has to come in that is cohesive and has like this rhythm. And people assume that hand models have certain direct can take certain direction and have like an elegance. The leg and foot job is the same client for me and I actually been looking under my feet for To see if anything has come up. And I haven't got anything weird yet, but I know that it's a really big thing.

Nick VinZant  01:10

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So real quick if you're in a safe position to do this. Take a look at your hands. Have you ever really thought about your hands? Have you ever really looked at somebody else's hands? Have you ever really thought about the hands that you see in commercials, and TV and movies and magazines and all that kind of stuff? Our first guest has a fascinating story into just how much thought companies put in to the hands that you see all over the place. And it's just this it's such an interesting look into the behind the scenes world that I find just just fascinating. This is to Talia Wray. She's a hand model with close up models. How did you become a hand model?

Talia Wray  02:07

I started off doing commercial work and acting. And the casting directors always kind of have us put our hands up to our face. And there's a couple myths about why that is. The one that I heard that I like and stuck with was that somebody got booked for a McDonald's commercial and didn't have a Pinkie. So the casting directors always asked to see our hands and I guess they just noticed that I had really nice hands and brought me in to do a casting for Samsung. I ended up booking that commercial and ended up doing like almost every product they came out with for a couple years. So that was really like the first time that I was booked for like a hand modeling job officially and got into that world.

Nick VinZant  03:00

Did you ever think to yourself before this, like, Oh, I have nice hands? I mean, was it something that you had ever thought of before?

Talia Wray  03:08

Yeah, um, actually, my mom made me aware that like, My hands were very unique. And also my dad tried to get me into piano. So the whole thing was like, kind of having like the really long slender knuckle list kind of fingers that were really like appealing to just my parents. So when, when that was brought to my attention, I was just kind of made aware of it, then it's like, everywhere you go, kind of like the nail lady is always complimenting like, your nail beds and like, my nails are very strong and they grow long, naturally. You tend to get a lot of compliments, but I just never knew what to do with them. You know, I was just kind of like, Okay, cool. Never thought about making money.

Nick VinZant  03:56

Yeah, I would imagine like, hey, you've got great eyelashes. Like, oh, okay, what do you do? Whatdo I do with that?

Talia Wray  04:04

I just kind of took the compliments.

Nick VinZant  04:06

We kind of you talked about this a little bit but what about your hands? Like why? Why are they nice?

Talia Wray  04:13

Yeah, I think me knowing and like being in the world now for a while I know it's like this like smooth even skin tone. It's that the knuckles and the the skin where your nail starts. There's like no discoloration, it's just all the way down is like even then, like this skin tone is like a perfect medium color. So it's kind of like you would represent the medium girls then it's the nail bed is really long and flat. That's like something very appealing to I would say like nail polish companies and like higher ends like Chanel Unlike how they sell perfume you would see like long nails and if you look on trends with like, like household products and like whatever you're trying to sell it kind of goes with like either an everyday kind of look of a hand which would go with like a shorter nail and like that luxurious brand that might choose like to have longer nails or just like very well manicured.

Nick VinZant  05:24

When you talk about the medium skin tone, we're talking about like essentially for any ethnicity in between the lightest skin tone of that ethnicity and the darkest skin tone of that right?

Talia Wray  05:37

Exactly, you know, a while back it was only really like lighter skin tones, and they were een like airbrushing or spraying their skin to be medium or dark. If if like that a product appealed to like those clients. So I would hear a lot that like Like these white and Asian girls would work as like the medium or dark girls too, because they just didn't want to pay or use darker skin tone models. But nowadays, it's like fashionable to have every color of the rainbow. But my Yeah, my skin tone is like that is like the medium, but I could also go dark, because I tan very quickly and easily. So I can definitely like range between medium and dark.

Nick VinZant  06:29

Has that been, I mean a struggle in terms of like getting more diversity in that for like a product? Well, no, you don't have to have a white hand holding this. You can have a dark black hand or a Hispanic and has that changed recently.

Talia Wray  06:43

You know, I see that there are prejudices between like, I probably would never do certain things like I just know it. I would never work for certain people because like if you see the forecasting of like, just How they shoe or, or what they're trying to sell to, it's not going to be like a demographic, they don't want to sell to people who look like me, basically. Sometimes it's also like, I'm matching the spokesperson of their, their commercial, like, if my hand is going to be Kerry Washington, it would just be whatever's closest to her skin tone. So it's very on trend of like what's happening in the fashion world and like, who they're selling to and who they want to buy their products. So there is definitely prejudice in that regard. It's definitely become more popular to have like a medium skin tone. And there's a big disadvantage. I would say for people with darker skin tone.

Nick VinZant  07:48

Do you feel like that's fair? Do you feel like that's unfair? Is that just that's just how it is?

Talia Wray  07:53

I have my own opinion, but I would say that I understand from like a marketing standpoint, when you look at everybody on there. have, like their diversity board. Like, there's not even a lot of women and women of color. So I think it doesn't even make sense. Like, if you want to change an ad, you have to kind of change what you're doing within the company. So I feel like it definitely is reflective of what's happening in the world. And for that reason, I don't get offended because if you don't, if you don't want me to be part of the project, then I don't really want to be part of it either.

Nick VinZant  08:30

In terms of like getting jobs, is it a subjective thing? Like one client will say, Oh, you have nice hands. And another client will say no, I don't like her hands. Or is it pretty much if you have it, you have it,

Talia Wray  08:40

you know, I know that I have. So I'm pretty confident. But I know that I kind of appeal to everyone looking for my like, if somebody's looking for my skin tone. I feel like I'm really at the top of my game with like, the top And models I've done every job that I kind of wanted to do when I started when I, when I even fantasize and like got my first job I started thinking like, what is it like to be like the top hand model? And you think of like certain people like Adele and Christina and certain people who had just done every job out there. And I thought to myself, what what would they be doing? And like, what are the jobs that they booked and I kind of imagined on my own like, what are the what are the products I'm using? What is it that I want to see myself ads and I just started booking those jobs and I would see some I would see some emails as well about me and like people are very enthusiastic when they see my hands, but I have had clients say in front of me Wow. Like your your nail bed isn't as good Flat as like hers, like a girl sitting directly next to me. You see that right in front of you? Yeah, I had a client do that to me once. And she was just like, so upset that my nail bed wasn't completely flat, and it had a curve to it. And it was for a nail polish job, I guess.

Nick VinZant  10:23

I mean, do you get offended by just the sheer rudeness of it, or is it?

Talia Wray  10:27

So personally, I was I was offended because I was just like, wow, it's something I really can't change. And I don't even know what to say to you because it's so rude.

Nick VinZant  10:38

Yeah, what are you gonna do?

Talia Wray  10:39

Yeah. And I immediately told my agent because I was so upset because it was actually like one of my dream clients. And I had worked with them with a different creative team separately and like, love that team. But when I met her, I really never wanted to work for that company again.

Nick VinZant  10:59

Can, can you like become a good hand model? Can you do something else to the hand itself?

Talia Wray  11:08

Like physically? I want to say no, some people ask for certain positions. Like, for instance, with Samsung, a lot of the jobs I were doing, I was doing, I was under a table of this set. So it's like I have my hands up and I have to do things and I can't even see the screen and I have to hit certain marks and you just kind of have to like have like just the sense of space and direction and a lot of dance training actually helped me with this, like hitting my marks and being fluid with my hands. So there's certain things direction wise I can take but I don't think that like hand modeling is something that like everyone can do because some hands are just definitely not as a as appeasing as like others are.

Nick VinZant  11:59

It's one of those things that as soon as you notice, you really notice

Talia Wray  12:03

Yeah,you just can't stop looking.

Nick VinZant  12:07

No, I'm looking at some of your pictures. I'm like, oh you do have really nice hands. Looking at my hands, I feel self conscious.

Talia Wray  12:16

Yeah, it really it sucks when you become aware of it, but in my daily life, I don't really let it get in my way.

Nick VinZant  12:24

What do you do to take care of your hands.

Talia Wray  12:28

I've been doing a lot of hand masks which are really nice and they just feel really great and they they help like maintain just like the smoothness just like how you would kind of take care of your face. I've been trying to treat my hands the same way and like use similar products on my face in my hands. Maintaining just like my cuticles are really important cuticle oil, cuticle oil and like cutting the cuticles, I would say are the best things. You can Do and I just love a good shaping. And I only kind of let certain people shape my nails because it can just really take a long time to grow out.

Nick VinZant  13:15

are your hands insured?

Talia Wray  13:17

They're not but I've been trying. I've actually been looking into doing it and I should have just done it so many times I've been thinking about it a lot, because it does pay my rent.

Nick VinZant  13:29

Are there things that you like, Oh, I, I avoid doing that. Right. Like I imagine you don't go rock or something.

Talia Wray  13:36

Yeah, so there are things that like, I get a little nervous about, like, my roommate bought me rollerblades and I was like if I fall because I also do leg modeling and foot modeling. So I'm like if I fall on any part of my body like it would take months to repair it like I just don't think it's a good idea or bowling could be really like difficult. I'm a shoe So, I don't really care. I don't really like pay attention too much about like the knives and things. So I like in the kitchen, but I know people who don't cook and like will not touch knives. And they're just really sticklers for it. But yeah, there are things that I'm I'm made aware of, but I pretty much do everything.

Nick VinZant  14:22

Essentially, how much do you get paid for a shoot?

Talia Wray  14:25

Um, I get paid anywhere from like 500 to I think my highest job was about 2500 were really a yeah whoa

Nick VinZant  14:41

oh, a day

Talia Wray  14:43

Yeah.

Nick VinZant  14:44

Wow. And I mean, it was that a that's a day like I'm there the full day or Hey, here I am. I'm gone in 10 minutes kind of thing.

Talia Wray  14:52

Well, it's like some jobs. I've done like five minutes of work and I've been sitting around all day. Some jobs like, I'll literally shoot for two hours, and then I can go. So it really depends. But some days could be long some days could be like 8 to 12 hours. So it'll, it'll really feel like you're you're shooting like a whole campaign or commercial for you know, full body models is about the same time.

Nick VinZant  15:23

I mean, at that rate, so this this can be a full time living then right?

Talia Wray  15:26

It can, um, I don't know a lot of people who only do it, but I do know people who only do it and have made like a lifestyle out of it. A lot of the people who are like newly in the game, also do it hand in hand with like, their regular modeling or just like side hustles and stuff, but like there's I definitely do other things, but it definitely pays my rent.

Nick VinZant  15:54

Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions? The first one is do you hate Seinfeld?

Talia Wray  16:03

Wow, because of that hand. That hand.

Nick VinZant  16:06

Yeah. Yeah,

Talia Wray  16:09

I thought it was really funny. I've been sent it a couple times. And I obsessed because of how excited I was when I first booked my job and first like, got into it and like, started dreaming up all of these jobs that I wanted to do. I got really excited. So I understand where it comes from. And I grew up watching Seinfeld so No, I do not hate it.

Nick VinZant  16:33

Who is it, and go ahead and say if that this is you? Who has the greatest hands of all time? Is there somebody they'd be like? That's, that's the ultimate there.

Talia Wray  16:44

Oh my god. of all time. I would say my friend Adele has pretty great hands. She does like she has a fair skin tone. And when I started. I was like, if I meet her and when I meet her, and if I work with her, I know like, I've made it. And we ended up working together last years. So that was like a pretty big deal for me. She doesn't even know this story. And so she's probably gonna think this is so funny because we're friends now. But for me, she's like the ultimate hand model

Nick VinZant  17:24

in the parts modeling world who is the cool kid of parts modeling High School, the hands, feet legs, who's like the cool kid.

Talia Wray  17:37

I thought it was legs. I think legs are pretty impressive. And everyone is has this whole thing about height, and like seeing women's legs is really sexy. So I thought legs were like the ultimate part. So I would say the cool kid his legs.

Nick VinZant  17:58

Now you do that too. Does one pay than the other.

Talia Wray  18:01

So I just, I, this was my first leg job that I got. Was this not this year? Yeah. Was it the beginning of 2020? rip? And so I started doing leg modeling. Do they pay more? No, not necessarily. It depends on the clients though. But hopefully from these photos, I'll start booking more legs and we'll, we can talk about that later.

Nick VinZant  18:31

Is the foot modeling one though, does that kind of end up? Because people have a thing with feet? Right? Does that lead to some weird places?

Talia Wray  18:40

Ah, you know, I, the leg and foot job is the same client for me and I actually been looking under my feet photos to see if anything has come up. And I haven't got anything weird yet, but I do know that it's a really big thing. And industry like the whole foot fetish thing. So it hasn't come up yet.

Nick VinZant  19:06

coolest product you've ever modeled

Talia Wray  19:09

iPhone.

Nick VinZant  19:10

Yeah, that's that's got to be a good one too, right? Yeah.

Talia Wray  19:13

And I've heard like the, the, the clients that I've worked with on the job like doing my nails and makeup said that they remember like when Steve was like on this set of those commercials and I just like Wish I could have been there for that. But yeah, iPhone was like, for me fell big.

Nick VinZant  19:34

Where have I probably seen your hands and not known it?

Talia Wray  19:38

Maybe food commercials like dunking french fries and ketchup.

Nick VinZant  19:45

Oh, yeah. I guess you don't think about all the times you just see pictures of people's hands.

Talia Wray  19:51

Exactly. Because there's so many McDonald's commercials that are only hands and you don't even realize it.

Nick VinZant  19:59

So they won't use them. But it's it's hardly ever the actual person I see on TV.

Talia Wray  20:04

Oh, no. Yeah, they would they would almost Oh wait, I think as something as big as McDonald's and when they're doing food close ups, they always hire hand models.

Nick VinZant  20:17

Why do you I mean, I guess why is that? Am I going to be turned off if I see.

Talia Wray  20:22

So that's what is like you don't want to be distracted from the product. So something has to come in that is cohesive and has like this rhythm. And people assume that hand models have certainty dirt can take certain direction and have like an elegance rather than like models who can just who Strike a pose or like a lot of people complain that models don't take direction well, but I think it's kind of hard for a full body model to not be able to take direction well and get jobs but I don't really know why that a They would do it other than like it's more appeasing and it just doesn't pull focus from the food. If you see something that is off about the hand,

Nick VinZant  21:09

Do you have good dexterity? Like do you have to be able to put this finger in this position and this finger in that position?

Talia Wray  21:16

I found a lot of times, I struggled in the beginning because of so many positions that were uncomfortable to me, and that I couldn't even that were just so unnatural. So it is kind of uncomfortable to the point where you're just kind of like you, you think like you want to reposition your fingers like surgically

Nick VinZant  21:42

Did somebody come in and like move like no, I need your left index to be open. 

Talia Wray  21:47

They will really almost always they'll be like we need it like this. We like it like this or just like literally pick up and move my finger and just be like, stay there and take the photo. Which can be irksome, because for me I'm just like, do my job. But I get it. I get it and I have been better at looking and noticing that everything is kind of like my fingers are evenly spaced and like looks pretty.

Nick VinZant  22:17

What finger is the best finger?

Talia Wray  22:21

The middle finger haha

Nick VinZant  22:23

It's definitely the most it, definitely has the most wide array of uses.

Talia Wray  22:32

But actually the most important finger I would say is that, yeah, the thumb is probably always in use, just like when you're holding your phone. It's always in the front. The thumb is very important. I think if you don't have a thumb you can you basically can't do the job

Nick VinZant  22:50

Now you've done some acting work too, right? Yeah. Is that is that kind of the the future career path or what's the What did what are you going to be? What is the main goal? I guess?

Talia Wray  23:02

Yeah. So my main goal is definitely in the acting world. I like being expressive and like writing my own work and like working with other actors. I really like just love storytelling. I think the part of the reason why I do it is a therapeutic aspect. I think it's very lovely to watch people creatively, emo and be able to get something back from that. So that is my main passion in life in the future in the present.

Nick VinZant  23:41

Yeah, it certainly seems like it would be good exposure.

Talia Wray  23:45

Oh, for sure. For sure,

Nick VinZant  23:55

 if I send you a picture of my hands, will you tell me what's wrong with my hands?

Talia Wray  24:00

Oh my god haha Okay, let me know when it shows up. Okay. Okay!

Nick VinZant  24:14

my hands are okay they're not bad

Talia Wray  24:10 I'm surprised to hear so well manicured during an epidemic or pandemic or life crisis, whatever we're dealing with now. I would say are you purposely making like this? Almost like the Star Wars symbol?

Nick VinZant  24:37

No.

Talia Wray  24:39

Okay because I was gonna say this spacing is just a little off between the the index and the middle finger or the ring finger in the middle finger.

Nick VinZant  24:51

Oh it does now I'm looking at it in real life it does kind of come apart. Are my knuckles bad?

Talia Wray  25:04

 I would say. I would say you could probably work like dad jobs they have like these jobs that you're like clearly like it's a dad feel like

Nick VinZant  25:14

that's a huge compliment and crush my soul at the same time.

Talia Wray  25:21

Cuz I'm saying, like, you look like you have like these like hard working hands like home improvement hands. Yeah, like I feel like those are like the kind of jobs that I would shake your hands for.

Nick VinZant  25:35

I felt Okay, I took it as like I'm getting old, because I'm at that age where I start to feel like I'm getting old.

Talia Wray  25:42

No, I mean, young people do the dad jobs too. So you know.

Nick VinZant  25:48

Ah, I feel good. I feel better about myself.

Talia Wray  25:51

Yeah, it's weird when you think when you notice it and then you kind of think about it.

Nick VinZant  25:55

Um, that's that's pretty much all the questions. I got what's coming up next for you.

Talia Wray 26:00

Well, I say with my agency, Close Up Models in LA, we're doing a bunch of different campaigns for holiday coming up. So I'm really excited to go back home and start doing that. So when I get back, I'm going to be shooting a bunch of stuff for holidays.

Nick VinZant  26:20

I want to thank Talia so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And I'd also like to thank close up models for helping connect us with Talia. I find this whole thing just endlessly fascinating, because it's definitely to me one of those things that you never think about until you notice it, and then you really notice it. We've also included both tullius information and close updadf models information in the RSS feed that's on this podcast. If anybody's interested in this I'll put up a picture of my hands just so you can tell. Have some perspective about what we're talking about.

Climatologist Dr. Gavin Schmidt

Climatologist Dr. Gavin Schmidt is the Director of the NASA Goddard Institute of Space Studies. In a wide-ranging interview, we talk Climate Change, melting ice sheets, fossil fuels, the impact of COVID-19 and why people in movies don't listen to scientists. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Cookies.

Interview with Dr. Gavin Schmidt on Climate Change

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant - Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Gavin Schmidt - Director of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies

Note: Transcription is not 100% accurate. Please consult the episode for exact quote

Nick VinZant  00:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode climate and cookies,

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  00:20

Climate it's everything that we see outside. And it's statistics and its processes. You know, it's the atmosphere is the ocean, it's the, the ice that floating on the Arctic is the ice sheets, you know, the trajectory we're on is putting us on a course for a climate on earth that has not been seen in millions of years. The scope of working for NASA allows you to think about things in a much, much broader context, then, then you would you'd be able to do in any other settings.

Nick VinZant  01:01

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. This is a really special episode for us. And I just want to start it off by saying thank you to everybody who has taken time to listen to the show. The guests that have come on the show, people who have commented, we really appreciate every single one of you. This is our 100th episode. And we definitely got farther than we ever thought that we could. And it's it's all because of our listeners and our guests. And I just want to say right at the beginning that we really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This is also a really important episode for us because we're going to be talking about something that is a huge issue now and is going To be a huge issue for the foreseeable future, climate change, what is going to be happening to our planet and what is happening with our planet right now? Our first guest is the perfect person to talk to about this. This is Dr. Gavin Schmidt. He's a climatologist, a climate modeler, and he is the director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. When we talk about climate, like I think I know what we're talking about when we someone says climate but what are we really talking about?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  02:37

It's everything that we see outside. And it's statistics and its processes. You know, it's the atmosphere, it's the ocean, it's the, the ice that floating on the Arctic is the ice sheets, the deep oceans, it's the stratosphere, and all the things that kind of intersects between all those realms. To give us the patterns of weather and climate, we can understand in a more colloquial sense

Nick VinZant  03:07

Climate is obviously that that's very different than weather, right?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  03:11

So I think people get a little confused about the difference between weather and climate when it comes to forecasting. And, and they see the limits to weather forecasting. So we can't we can't make good weather forecasts beyond 10 days and not much, much beyond that. And, and they think, Well, you know, but the weather time is the same. So we can't make climate forecasts but but we're trying we're doing something very different or making a climate forecast. What we're doing there is is trying to say how the the average things are going to change how the patterns are going to change, not not the specifics of any one storm or or one hurricane or one weather system. And so the predictability and climate comes from a very different place. So the predictability of climate comes from the fact that you know, energy is conserved mass is conserved, that we understand radiation in and out of the atmosphere. Whereas, you know, the predictability of weather comes because we can, you know, we can track you know that like these big, Eddie's these big turbulent Eddie's in the atmosphere from one day to another, which is a very different kind of skill, but they are very related. I mean, we don't make tire predictions without including all of the weather. inside those those calculations. You talked about all the things that kind of go into into climate is there one that influences it, more than any of the others, like this thing has the biggest impact that doesn't really make much sense to us, because the interesting things about the climate are the emergent properties of what happens when it gets going, you know, the interactions between the ocean And the ice and the atmosphere, the wave patterns, the the variations, the El Nino patterns that you see in the Pacific, all of those things emerge because of the connections between the different realms and the different processes. So you know, if you take one thing out, then it's a very different system. And it has different properties. But we're really interested in the properties of the whole system. And it turns out that almost all of the interesting ones are coupled in, in various, sometimes subtle ways between all those different avenues.

Nick VinZant  05:37

So we're recording this towards the end of May right now, what are you kind of seeing in terms of changes related to COVID-19? What kind of an impact is that having?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  05:48

Right, so so what's happening so basically a lot of activities that would have taken place or not taking place Now, some of those activities would have used fossil fuels, right? driving around in cars, public transport, all of those things have gone way down. So that means that the the emissions from those activities have gone down. We're also the air pollutants from those activities have gone that we're also not doing some things that we would have done otherwise. Right? So for instance, in this time of year, quite often in places like California, they do controlled burns of forest areas to try and avoid larger burns later on the season. Okay, we're not doing that. So there are there are some odd things that are happening in terms of the atmospheric composition, emissions that impact climate and air quality that are quite noticeable right now. So for instance, you know, air quality has improved, you know, pretty much across the board LA, New York. northeast northern Italy, Europe, China, India have all had huge reductions in the amount of air pollutants. And that's mainly from car driving. But But carbon dioxide emissions they've gone down a little as well. But the interesting thing there is that coming dockside is accumulating so and we're putting so much more into the atmosphere than the planet can deal with that even you know,  a10 percent 15% reduction in global emissions it's still the conductor demand is still gonna go up

Nick VinZant  07:36

We seem to be heading a certain direction in terms of climate change, correct me if I'm wrong, has what's been happening with the reductions made any dent or are we still headed in the wrong direction?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  07:49

No, it's like, it's like you're filling a bath and somebody is like kind of slightly turned down the tap. But really, the bath is still continuing to fill And what you need to do is turn off the tap is completely. And that's the only way that the tablet the bath is going to stop rising. So that's a huge task. And I don't think anybody is unaware of how difficult a task that's going to be. And it's a task that needs to be sustained over not just a few months, not just a few years, but for pretty much the rest of the century. So I, you know, we were, we're seeing this decrease this year. That that's, that's clear. But to the extent that it helps in any important way, is the extent to which any habits that have been ingrained right now, stick or that when we kind of restart economic activity that we do so in a way that puts us on a more sustainable path going forward. And those Those issues really very much still to be determined.

Nick VinZant  09:03

When we're talking about climate change kind of as a way for me to understand it on a scale of like one to 10. One, everything's gonna be fine, don't worry about it.  10 kiss your butt goodbye kind of thing life as we know, it is changing forever. Where are we kind of at now?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  09:22

I'd say about eight.

Nick VinZant  09:23

That bad?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  09:25

Yeah, I mean, you know, the trajectory we're on is putting us on a course for a climate on Earth, that has not been seen in millions of years. Right. I mean that and let me let me discuss, you know how long the period is like. So humans have only been around in our kind of modern form for about 200,000 years. The environment in which, you know, Homo sapiens evolved You know, the the African savannas, the ice ages coming and going the end of hills, all of those things, you know, all of those things have kind of fit in the last, you know, 3 million years a, where we're going in terms of climate, it goes back even before that, right. So it goes back to the prior scene, maybe even the minor scene, you know, periods that were significantly warmer where there was very little ice on the planet, or much less ice on the planet. sea levels were, you know, perhaps 20 meters so what's that 60/65 feet higher than they are now? You can still see the Paleo shorelines you know, where the where the beaches used to be on the east coast. And they're in the middle of New Jersey, not anywhere near where the present day coasters. So you know, that's kind of where we're headed andan only with You know, pretty dramatic reductions in carbon dioxide emissions will we avoid it

Nick VinZant  11:06

Is this something that we can really solve? Or are we just kind of gonna treat the symptoms of the disease and not the disease itself, so to speak?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  11:16

Well, okay,so you know what it was told me that so so we're not going to stop it, but, but it is within our power to slow it down so that, you know, we have time to adapt. You know, part of what's happening now is that it's changing much faster than civilizations ever had to deal with climate change before. And that means that it's, you know, it's more of a challenge, you know, it's harder to get things moving faster or to adapt, when things are moving fast and not stopping. Right. So can we can we ameliorate the problem can we act and reduce the impacts is going to have absolutely we Gonna just make it go away entirely? No, never.

Nick VinZant  12:03

How big of an impact does the melting of the of the ice sheets have? Do we do we kind of fully understand what that could do? Or are we still kind of figuring that out?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  12:13

So the melting of the ice sheets is one of the big components in rising sea level is rising because the ocean is getting warmer and they expand right that's about a third of the of the situation right now. We're also melting, you know, mountain glaciers around the world that's adding to the problem. we're extracting groundwater that's adding to the problem but the biggest, you know, about a third of the of the issue right now is melting of Greenland and Antarctica. Those are both both of those continents are adding water into the oceans at around 250 Giga tons of water every every year from from both from both ice sheets. And what we anticipate is as as the planet gets warmer, that those rates will increase. And so you're having an accelerating impact from the ice sheets on sea level rise. So that's that's a big concern. Right? So, do we know what it can do? Yes, obviously, I mean, like, you know it, I mean, if they all melted, it would be, you know, it'd be many, you know, maybe 100 meters of field rise now, that isn't going to happen anytime soon, thankfully. But there's there's plenty of ice and there's plenty of opportunity for that to do major damage to coastal infrastructure around the world. But I, you know, do we know everything about how the specific eye seats and the eye social cavities and the and the dynamics of ice sheets are all kind of interacting to produce that result? No, we don't. So we're spending a lot of time trying to understand those projects, those those processes better. We're spending a lot of time and effort and money are measuring those processes. You know, that's sending you know, unmanned autonomous vehicles underneath the ice sheets underneath the ice shelves to see what's going on. It's flying over the ice shells and ice sheets to see how the height is changing. It's measuring the velocity of these things from space, seeing how, you know, the math of these ice sheets is changing from gravity measurements in space. So we're, we're, we're studying this enormously hard. But, but there are there are still a lot of unknowns,

Nick VinZant  14:31

whether they're cities, countries, organizations, anything like that, because obviously there's going to be like, you kind of talked about winners and losers. Is there anybody that's kind of advocating for this, like trying to actively stop people from stopping climate change?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  14:47

Well, yeah, they're not generally, you know, people as you would understand them, but they are, you know, people who are very invested in the resource industry and the countries that are benefit enormously. From the resource industry, and they just want to sell their product and the climate be damned. It's very short term thinking. It's, but But yeah, I mean, obviously there are, there are administration's and countries that that are doing that. But, you know, there's also a lot of pushback against that. Because there are people that do have a longer term horizon that can see where things are going. And, you know, this notion of, you know, having an economy in a situation where, you know, sea level is rising out of control. That doesn't make sense for a lot of people. How did you,

Nick VinZant  15:37

how did you get into studying this?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  15:39

I was slightly planning by accident. I was, I was a math major. In college, I started doing applied maths, working to on on kind of, you know, relatively simple ocean models of various sorts, and then you No. And I've kind of gravitated to more and more complicated more and more realistic issues where, you know, you don't get an exact answer. But you do get answers much closer to the question that you really want to have answered.

Nick VinZant  16:13

Are there's some specific areas that were that are really in trouble when we talk about climate change.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  16:19

Yeah, it depends a little bit where you are, I mean, so places that are kind of Mediterranean climates where it's still pretty arid, they're generally going to get drier and so that's going to be a problem for them and their water resources. People that rely on mountain snow for water resources. Okay, well, that's going away. So now you're going to have to deal with, you know, kind of earlier spring melts and drier summers. That has implications for wildfires. If you're in an area that's prone to wildfires. You know, if you're in the far north, then you know, you have to worry about permafrost melts and you have to Worry about infrastructure that that relies on the frozen ground, you know, like the ice the ice roads to go to, to the north coast of Alaska, you know, those are much less possible now than they used to be. But if you know, you know, if you're a cruise ship owner and you want to do the northwest passage through the Arctic, well now you've got far more opportunities to do so though. I wouldn't recommend it. for for for various reasons.

Nick VinZant  17:28

I got distracted a little bit by my three year old. We did we talk about ways that we can kind of reduce it. Have we covered that I'm blanking for some reason all of a sudden?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  17:39

No, well, we didn't discuss it but but the answer is not difficult, right. The answer is we have to reduce emissions. And we have to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide for the most part, but also we think that oxides now you know, reducing carbon dioxide emissions means no, no more fossil fuel. So no more coal, no more oil, no more natural gas and replacing those energy infrastructures with something else, whether that's solar or wind or combinations or nuclear power, or geothermal or better efficiencies or need the energy in the first place. All of those can play a role in, in moving us away from fossil fuels. Now there's there's one additional thing that you could be doing, which is capturing the carbon emissions and burying it somewhere. So theoretically, that works. But, you know, it's it's one of those solutions that really only works when you have a price on putting carbon into the air, so that it makes it worthwhile to not do so for the companies involved. And we are a long way from having such a market in the US.

Nick VinZant  18:59

Do you have a A couple more minutes for some listener questions. Sure. Like, let me warn you ahead of time our our audience is very nice. They're very smart. They're a little bit quirky. There. So some of the some of the questions are a little interesting. Um, yeah. This first one is best movie where a scientist warns people of a disaster and no one listens.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  19:27

Like every single science, every single movie with the scientists, like that's, that's the stock roll. You know, whether it's Jurassic Park day after tomorrow jaws toward the Dante's peak, and we like it's a stock roll. So anytime you see a scientist on it on a TV show, oh, you know, they're they're going to be the ones that are telling people what's going to happen and nobody's going to believe them for dramatic effect. So, you know, we, we play that role on TV a lot. And you think people Look at it by now,

Nick VinZant  20:01

what is that like for, for you or other scientists, when you're kind of telling somebody about something, that's a real problem, and they just push it aside? Does that get just incredibly frustrating? Like, how do you keep doing that over and over and over again?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  20:14

So, I mean, sometimes, you know, people arguing in bad faith, you know, it's just a waste of time. Right. So, as far as trying to try and avoid that other times, you know, there are really genuine questions behind that stance, overwhelming, you know, comments that people make, and, and sometimes those are worth kind of going into in detail, you know, why? Why do we think that these that we have confidence in these predictions, you know, how do we tell these things, you know, what is the difference between weather and climate? Why can we do these predictions out longer? I mean, that's, those are those are real questions. And, you know, for people that haven't thought about it very much. You know, I'm happy to, to explain these things. And you know, and sometimes you know, you can get feedback and, you know, and questions that seems sensible to somebody and you think, Oh, well, actually, we've, we've never really answered that in that particular way. So, you know, that kind of leads you down a kind of more productive path. And, you know, quite a lot of my research work and an outreach has been in answering questions that the community as a whole hasn't really answered to people satisfaction. So there's, you know, you have to listen as opposed to just be talking. And then that makes the whole communication thing kind of more

Nick VinZant  21:35

interesting. This might get a little bit more into weather than climate, so to speak, but best Where do you think has the best weather slash climate in the world?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  21:44

New Zealand is looking pretty good right now.

Nick VinZant  21:53

Yeah, they do look really good, don't they? There's one that just says how long before we're doomed.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  22:01

Oh that's an odd thing to ask in the middle of a pandemic. I, you know, like, we're not we're not doomed, you know, the future is created by the choices that we're making today. And while there are still sensible people who have, you know, decisions to make, that can make things better or make things worse, and there's still enough people, you know, making decisions that are pushing us in a better direction, then you know, then that's that's that's positive, and we're never going to be not in that situation. So, you know, I don't I don't have a lot of sympathy for the over dooms, like just might as well party type of attitude. I don't I don't think we do. I think we just have to make better decisions.

Nick VinZant  22:50

This these two kind of go together a little bit. coolest thing about working for NASA. Has there ever been a moment where you are just working like Wow, that's really cool.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  23:04

Um, so yes. So let me let me betray my, my slightly geeky side. working for NASA is indeed quite cool. You know, I've interacted with, with astronauts, I've interacted with people who've designed like the most amazing machines. We've, you know, we were on the receiving end of reams of data that show us things that that we never even dreamed were possible, let alone that we would actually see. And the scope of working for NASA allows you to think about things in a much, much broader context, then, then you would you'd be able to do in any other setting. You know, I mean, I've written papers about the possibility of ancient terrestrial civilizations and whether we know that they existed in The geological record, I've worked with people who are thinking about how habitable Venus was, until actually, relatively recently in solar system history, I'm working with people who are trying to work out what the techno signatures of an alien civilization around the planet on a planet around another star would look like. And I'm working on, you know, trying to see where what we're doing to the climate fits into all of those things. And so, you know, that's, that's, that's an enormous range of, of intellectual interest and joy, that we can do these things. So I love working for NASA.

Nick VinZant  24:49

Do you guys I mean, do you study like if we had to go to another planet? What planet would be suitable for us? Like, do you guys look at the client? Yes.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:00

Getting off just, it's extortionate. So there's no we're not we're moving to another planet. It's much, much better to fix the one that we're on. You know, we're interested in about habitability of Mars and Venus and, and all of these other planets that we're seeing, but none of them are as habitable as this one right here.

Nick VinZant  25:17

I always kind of felt like those pursuits, like looking for how we can move to another planet would be like, mowing the yard while the house is on fire kind of thing.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:28

Well, no, it's it's like designing a lawn mower for a lawn that doesn't exist while the house is on fire.

Nick VinZant  25:34

Yeah. Um, is there anything that we should be talking about that, that, that maybe you haven't covered or anything like that, like,

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:42

you know, I mean, the technology that we're putting together to see what's going on is extremely cool, right? So if you're interested in cool technologies, then look into that. But, you know, this technology, our understanding doesn't exist in a vacuum, right. It exists. You know, in the context of, you know, how society works, how society functions, you know the inequities in society, you know, who benefits who loses, who, who gets impacted and who doesn't get impacted. And we're seeing that writ large with the pandemic, you know, when when the stress comes along, you know, society fractures along the fault lines that already existed. And so if you're interested in you know, how society is going to cope, look at what's happening with the pandemic, look who's who's being served, look who is start looking was getting services, look who is getting, you know, who, you know, where, where the suffering is most and it tells you that we have a long, long way to go. In terms of, you know, fixing society and fixing the way things work, to do deal with with stresses like the pandemic or like climate change.

Nick VinZant  27:00

I want to thank Dr. Smith so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media accounts where Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.  I think it's impossible to say enough about just how important dealing with climate change is going to be for all of us moving forward

Professional Golfer Hailey Ostrom

She didn't have money. She didn't know anyone. She only knew that if she wanted to pursue her dream, this is what it would take. Professional Golfer Hailey Ostrom joins us. We talk golf, her journey to the pros and why you shouldn't wear jeans on the course. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things People Lie About.

Interview with Hailey Ostrom

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, golf, lie, LPGA, golfer,play, person, professional golfer, grocery carts, movie, sports, walk, golf course, punching, throwing, talking, feel, bag, meeting

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant – Profoundly Pointless Host

Hailey Ostrom – Professional Golfer

Nick VinZant  00:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going golfing and counting down the top five things people lie about.

Hailey Ostrom  00:24

So for me, I think the hardest part was the fact that I just basically threw all of my belongings in a car and drove down to Arizona, and I took a huge leap of faith there and just went for it. How do you make that jump? And be, you know, the top golfer on the LPGA Tour, versus somebody like me, who's currently, you know, scrambling on many tours, what's the difference between me and those golfers and there really is a small difference. You know, this person gave up their life. They they fought for our country and I got to share his story while I had the bag people would ask about it and I got to talk about him and share his story and meet his his parents.

Nick VinZant  01:12

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So have you ever wondered if you have what it takes? You're good at something. But could you be really good? Could you be a professional? Could you be a professional on the highest level? Our first guest is going through that journey right now. And I think that she has this incredibly inspiring story about pursuing your dreams and really going after something that you want, while also giving back to a lot of people at the same time and having a huge impact that way as well. This is professional golfer Haley Ostrom. So was golf, the first sport or did you come into this later?

Hailey Ostrom  02:03

I grew up playing pretty much every sport known to man. My dad got me into the game when I was really young, but I kind of played a little bit of everything soccer, basketball, volleyball, tennis, everything and then I didn't start playing in tournaments until I was nine years old.

Nick VinZant  02:25

Are you pretty athletic?

Hailey Ostrom  02:27

I like to say that I am athletic. I like to try new new stuff. Just recently, I've started learning how to snowboard and then last week, I went and wake boarded and learned to wake surf for the first time. So I'm definitely always curious about new sports.

Nick VinZant  02:49

When we talk about like in relation to other professional golfers though, like art, is it athletic ability, like do you have an awesome vertical or something or is there something else that makes a good golfer?

Hailey Ostrom  03:03

Well, I definitely do not have an awesome vertical. I have white girl hops all the way. But I would say yes, in the grand scheme of things a, you know, General athletic ability that I have, but I don't think that golfers necessarily have to be athletic and well rounded in all sports. I think it's such a specific type of athlete that is a good golfer. So I don't know most of my professional friends. They're good golfers, but they probably aren't very good soccer players or basketball players. I think it's it's not a general athletic ability in golf.

Nick VinZant  03:46

When you kind of started to pursue this more seriously, was it because you really liked golf more than other sports or was it because you were better at golf

Hailey Ostrom  03:57

It was definitely because I was better. Better at golf. And I think I just one day kind of realized that this was my ticket to college. And in my household growing up college was not an option. It was that it's that that's what you're gonna go do. That was what my parents were going to provide for my brother and I. But golf is going to be the way that I can kind of choose the college that I want to go to, and be different, I guess. So. I played volleyball as well as golf in high school. And it wasn't until my junior year that I decided I'm gonna stop playing volleyball and I'm just gonna focus on golf, because that's gonna be my ticket.

Nick VinZant  04:46

When did you start considering it? Like, Okay, I'm gonna do this professionally now.

Hailey Ostrom  04:50

Yeah, I would say it wasn't until going into my senior season. George Fox university that I realized I had It improved so much over the course of those three years. And then my dad kind of put that idea in my head like, hey, maybe if you keep improving this year, this is going to be your breakthrough year. You know, I believe in you, your coach believes in you. If you keep improving, you could really have a shot at a future and golf longer than your college career. And so I think my my senior year was that test run of like, Alright, this is make it or break it, like if I played really well, my senior year that I'm getting serious about it. But I think had I not had a really good senior year, maybe I wouldn't have continued to pursue it in professional golf.

Nick VinZant  05:44

Did you have an easy transition into the professional ranks? Or has it been a struggle?

Hailey Ostrom  05:50

I wouldn't say that it was easy, but I also wouldn't say that it was a struggle. I think it's probably hard for anybody to Try something new and, and crazy for yourself and pursue something so different. I mean, there aren't that many people after college who pursue a professional career in a sport. They might they, they usually just take their degree and go pursue that. So for me, I think the hardest part was the fact that I just basically threw all of my belongings in a car and drove down to Arizona. And I took a huge leap of faith there and just went for it. 100% I didn't know I really didn't know my roommate that I was about to live with. I didn't know her brother, who I was also going to be living with. I had never been to Scottsdale before. I didn't have a job and I barely had any money in my bank account, but I just took that leap. And I would say, that was the hardest thing for me to do. But also the best thing for me, I think that was one of my biggest decisions I've made In my 26 years, that that really helped set my path. But as far as playing, went, I had such a strong team behind me, my parents and my whole family and my college coach still supports me today. And I was able to find the right coach in Arizona, and he became my support team here. So from there, I just kind of built a little family and a little team in Arizona and and went with it.

Nick VinZant  07:36

How do you become a professional golfer, like is there a tryout to see if you can get on the tour? Do you qualify? Like, do you just show up? What do you do

Hailey Ostrom  07:47

You just show up

Nick VinZant  07:40

Just show up with some clubs and say here I am huh?

Hailey Ostrom  07:52

Yeah, so golf is a lot different than any other sport and I think a lot of people don't actually know that the answer to that question So with golf, you can pretty much sign up for any tournament as a professional. But once you do, so there's no going back. So, tournament entry fees are more expensive when you're a professional. And once you turn pro, you can accept sponsorships and money. But you can no longer ever play an amateur events again. So you're giving up that right. So for me, my first year I decided to remain an amateur when I moved to Arizona and I played on the cactus tour as an amateur. So my entry fees were a lot cheaper, but I couldn't accept any sponsors. But I figured for me, I didn't think I was gonna go out and win a bunch of money right away. So it was worth it for me to save the money on the entry fees and get some experience under my belt. Then I started realizing I had potential to Receive sponsorships and my first one was actually Nike. And that's when I decided, Okay, this is serious, you know, my social media has kind of taken taken off right now. So I decided to enter into my next event as a professional. And that's that's basically all you have to do, but it wouldn't. It's not that everybody can be a pro there would be no benefit for somebody to go sign up in a tournament as a professional and then just go walk around claiming that their professional golfer

Nick VinZant  09:35

but like, if I wanted to, I could technically do it.

Hailey Ostrom  09:41

Technically, yes, but you wouldn't have any status on any tours. That's why you get status on a tour you have to go compete at q school or qualifying school. So for the women we have LPGA qualifying school, you go it's three different stages. The first stage is one tournament of four days. And you compete against hundreds of other women and try and make it into stage two. Stage Two is another tournament, you go there, do the same thing and then try and make into the final stage. And that's where you can earn your LPGA status. So if you are just some random Joe Schmo on the street and you want to be a professional golfer, great, they'll sign up in a professional event. Probably not, you're not gonna get anywhere with it until you go get status on a tour.

Nick VinZant  10:30

How much of a difference is there between like a really good golfer and you? And then somebody who say is mid level or top level on LPGA?

Hailey Ostrom  10:43

Um, no. So there is not a big difference at all. And that's, that's kind of the the big question I guess in in golf is how do you how do you make that jump and be, you know, the top golfer on the LPGA Tour versus somebody like me, who's currently, you know, scrambling on many tours. What's the difference between me and those golfers and there really is a small difference. And trying to narrow down like what I can improve on is so hard sometimes that might might be the hardest, hardest issue. If I go out on on the driving range, and I hit balls, next to Lexi Thompson and all the other big names on tour, you probably wouldn't be able to pick me out and be like, oh, that girl clearly doesn't belong here. Like I my swing is is solid. I have a good game. But the difference is so small. It's just, you know, those girls making more birdies or who can handle the pressure or who can make the leap down the stretch. It's really small. differences. I think the difference between an amateur golfer or like a weekend warrior versus a professional golfer, though is big.

Nick VinZant  12:10

When you look at it and reflect on the differences between you and an LPGA player, do you see something that you need to improve on or does it just depend on the day?

Hailey Ostrom  12:25

Yeah, I so I keep all of my stats, and I evaluate where I go wrong on the course and the differences. And I always I love playing with golfers who are better than me, who doesn't, right, you want to get better and improve. So when I play with golfers that I consider to be better than me or have better status than me. I really focus on where they score and how they score. And I think what I have come down to is those girls are making more birdies. So when I have a birdie putt opportunity I may make it may not when they have a birdie putt opportunity, they're going to make it so birdie opportunities usually like 10 feet or or closer. They're going to make those putts. So mine's like maybe a 50/50 chance if I make it or not, they are going to make it and I think it's not that they're better Potter's. I think it's a mental check that they know that they need that birdie or they have worked hard to put themselves in that position to get that birdie. So they're going to make it whereas for me when I step up to that point, it's like I really want this birdie. I kind of want it too much. I'm putting a lot of pressure now on myself to make that so I might make it or I might not. So it's kind of figuring out what mental approach works best for you. I'm a true believer in the mental game and and it's a huge aspect to Professional Golf and probably any professional sport,

Nick VinZant  14:04

Do you think that golf is more of a mental sport than other sports?

Hailey Ostrom  14:09

Yeah, 100% I do just because golf is so different where there is not action the entire time you you spent I think, I don't know the statistic you're the the numbers on this. But I think it's something like during your entire round, you only really spend like 40 minutes or maybe even less than that. really focused on the shot. And actually, it might be a lot less than that might be like 20 minutes, you spend like 20 minutes, but around could take four hours. So you have all of that time to walk up to your ball and think about whatever is going to come into your mind. You have to train yourself to stay focused when you need to be focused, but to let go when you need to let go. So that's it. thing that I struggled with for a long time is I would be focused the whole time. And I it was like a little, if you could just picture my mind, it would be like a fist, a ball of, you're putting your fist in a ball, I was just clenched up all the time. Like, I'm going to focus, I'm gonna win, I'm gonna, you know, whatever, so intense. And that's not how the game needs to be played. You cannot be that focused and that intense for four hours, you're gonna I used to be exhausted by the end of my rounds. And so I think mental game with golf is you have to know when to focus, which is when you get up to your shot. Now you need to clear your mind focus in dial in on what you need to accomplish focus while you hit the shot. And as soon as the shot is gone. You have to release and just pick up your bag and walk to the next one.

Nick VinZant  15:52

So for you, what's the ultimate goal?

Hailey Ostrom  15:56

For me, the goal is to make it on the LPGA I think not only has that been something that I've wanted for a while now, but it's something I think I could make a difference in and kind of change the game a little bit. And help, you know, use my platform for good. I have built a small platform with my social media and it's so cool to see that I have impacted some younger women younger girls and some way and helped them in some way or inspired them even the slightest bit. So I think, if I were to make on the LPGA I could reach so many more people.

Nick VinZant  16:40

You do a lot of stuff for charity, what inspires you to be so involved?

Hailey Ostrom  16:45

Um, I feel like I have just been impacted in my life to see the good and some of the charities and what these organizations do and they have, you know, helped me get through some As far as, for example, I will just give this example. In college we were given the opportunity to carry a golf bag of a fallen soldier. So we all had our own team golf bag and then we had one extra bag that had not our name on it, but it had Lieutenant Mark Jennings daily on it. And one player got to carry that bag each week to the tournament. So whenever I got to carry the bag, it just was such a good reminder for me, that you know, this person gave up their life they they fought for our country, and I got to share his story while I had the bag people would ask about it and I got to talk about him and share his story and meet his his parents. And it just reminded me that there are such greater things in life than then a game of golf and it helped me put that into perspective and not get so frustrated on Golf Course anytime I hit a bad shot or, or I want to get mad or, you know, slam my club down, I would see his bag over there with the American flag on it. And I was like, okay, that's a ridiculous thing to get upset about. And it really did just help me put that into perspective and learn more about perspective. So, from that moment on, I figured I wanted to help give back to organizations like that. And I actually got involved in now work for backswing golf events. And a lot of our probably 90% of our events, we go out to charity events and help raise money for the charity. And it's so much fun to go out, you raise money, you have a fun time out on the course that day you get to hit shots and interact with people and meet new people. And then at the end, you go in and you give the tournament director, the money that you raise for that day and we raise a lot of money. For these, for these charities, we we raised a million dollars last year. So we, you know, walking in and giving that money over and seeing how happy they are and how excited they are. It's, it's really cool that you can make a difference, you know, and, and for me, it's great. It's like a win win all around because I get to work on my golf game and be outside and meet new people and help charity

Nick VinZant  19:24

is golfing like other sports like do you have a physical prime?

Hailey Ostrom  19:28

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that golf has a physical prime. I mean, look at people on tour right now look at Phil Mickelson, Phil's 50 he's in his 50s now, and he's still out there just crushing it. So I would say that when you're younger, obviously it might come a little easier because it's probably easier to gain muscle and be fit and strong and healthy. You have to work a little bit harder as you get older for those things, but I wouldn't say that there's a physical Prime so many people play me my grandma's 84 years old and she still plays golf.

Nick VinZant  20:06

Are are you ready for the harder slash listeners submitted questions?

Hailey Ostrom  20:11

I am

Nick VinZant  20:13

Do you get tired of walking?

Hailey Ostrom  20:18

I actually prefer walking on the golf course especially when I'm in a tournament because I think that gives me time to be by myself and just enjoy being outside and just kind of part of nature I guess. So no, I don't get tired of walking but I work out enough to make sure that I don't get physically tired.

Nick VinZant  20:43

Favorite golf course.

Hailey Ostrom  20:44

My favorite golf course is crosswater is Sunriver, Oregon. I grew up playing there and then my senior year I won our conference championship there so I have a lot of good memories there.

Nick VinZant  20:57

Popular golf course. Other people seem to Like that you do not.

Hailey Ostrom  21:02

Oh, ah, I feel like I do have an answer to this. I just have to think about it for a second. There's a lot of courses in Arizona that I feel like get so much attention and I'm like I don't really like the hype. For example, one course that I have yet to play very well is true north. I can't even think of which side it is but it's a treat to to go out there because it is very nice. But I have not played it well yet. So I can't say I love it. But it is very, very nice. Another course I would say talking stick here in Scottsdale is really popular and not a huge fan. I think it's a little overrated. I like hidden gems, the ones that aren't super popular, but when you go out you just have such a fun time. It's a nice surprise

Nick VinZant  22:03

question from somebody. Do I need to wear pants to impress my friends when golfing? Will that help me out and make me look like a better golfer than I really am?

Hailey Ostrom  22:15

Hey, look good, feel good play good, right? That's, that's my motto. No, you don't need to wear pants. But I would recommend not wearing jeans on on any golf course even if they allow it probably just don't wear jeans. But you can wear shorts. I think that that's fine.

Nick VinZant  22:36

I've always had a problem when people like really show their socks like when they were like the ankle socks. I feel like that. Like that got that person's not going to be a great golfer.

Hailey Ostrom  22:48

I think if you just you know really rock your look with confidence Go for it, but I think they're I would just look up like some of the Nikes models or something Nike golf models because I think their their mind right now is so new and hip, and it's like a new version of golf. And they're kind of remaking the golf look. And so it's more athletic nowadays so you can wear high top golf shoes and cool shorts and a nice collared shirt and look really legit and look like an athlete rather than, you know, looking like your 80 year old grandpa who's been playing at the country club every week.

Nick VinZant  23:35

wearing shorts he's had since 1990.

Hailey Ostrom  23:39

Yeah, exactly.

Nick VinZant  23:41

best movie about a golfer. Our best golf best golf movie, worst golf movie,

Hailey Ostrom  23:48

best golf movie, my favorite Seven Days in Utopia. A lot of people don't know that movie, but I would definitely check it out and it's all about the mental side of golf. It's also book it was a book first but seven days you type utopia for sure.

Nick VinZant  24:05

Worst golf movie.

Hailey Ostrom  24:09

Um, I don't really have one that I really dislike but I will probably get so much hate for this but Happy Gilmore is just not my favorite.

Nick VinZant  24:21

Yeah, if you would have said Caddyshack, I was thinking of hanging up.

Hailey Ostrom  24:27

Oh my gosh, no Caddyshack for sure. is in. But Tin Cup is in. But Happy Gilmore is probably my least my least favorite out of all of them.

Nick VinZant  24:38

I could see that. It's kind of what did it get worse for you? Because I feel like Adam Sandler made some movies later on that kind of ruined his earlier movies in some way.

Hailey Ostrom  24:50

Yeah, I think it's just like that stupid funny, you know? And so after a while, it's like, okay, it's not that funny. But it's okay. Like, I have still watch it and I still like doing the Happy Gilmore swing and I appreciate it for the golf world, but it's my least favorite,

Nick VinZant  25:08

favorite club in your bag.

Hailey Ostrom  25:12

Every club in my bag is my favorite. Now I'm just kidding. Every club in my bag is not my favorite. Definitely, I've known for my driver, I love my driver. But I would say my putter is probably tied with my driver just because you have to fall in love with your putter. It's the most important club in the bag.

Nick VinZant  25:35

So I'm not nearly a good enough golfer to really know the difference but I mean is can you hit basically every club like as a as a professional? Is there really any difference? Like do you hit one club like, man, I can really hit this five. I can't hit this four.

Hailey Ostrom  25:52

No, actually, it's funny that you asked that because I think until up until like, maybe a year ago. I Oh had one club in my bag that I just didn't like as much as the others. There was always one. And so you feel like that one club comes up all the time and around, you're like, shoot, I don't want to hit this club. This is my least favorite club. But now I think I've just kind of made that turn in my game where I don't have that anymore. It used to be something where I had to work on that club a lot because I would be you know, stressed now when that yardage would come up and now I'm like, I'm not afraid to hit any shot and I know I can pull off any shot so yeah, it doesn't really affect me anymore. But that definitely was the thing for me, especially in college. I always had one club I just didn't like as much

Nick VinZant  26:46

are you? Are you actively thinking like during the swing? like okay, tuck my elbow twist my leg or is it all muscle memory point?

Hailey Ostrom  26:54

Oh, definitely don't want to think about mechanics during your swing. That will not help you. So I always have one swing thought. And it doesn't even have to be about the swing itself. It could just be, you know, Target or tempo, or, you know, breeze or whatever. But I always have one thing. A lot of times I'll think about keeping a shorter backswing I get, I tend to get really long with my backswing. So that's something that is more swing related that I think of, but that's it. I won't, I won't think of anything else.

Nick VinZant  27:31

Um, best golf trick that you can do.

Hailey Ostrom  27:34

I can't do that many check shots. So I would say my go to i can i can juggle and I can juggle between the legs and stuff and hit out of the air, but I can't do that many cool things. So my go to trick shot that looks pretty cool. Is juggling and then I can catch the ball in my hat. I flip the hat around and let the ball fall through the little pony detail spot. And then I continue I kept getting Chug, juggle it again. But that's honestly like so simple. Anybody can learn it. You can check it out on my YouTube because I did a full tutorial.

Nick VinZant  28:13

I mean, that sounds actually really impressive.

Hailey Ostrom  28:16

It looks cool and it looks like Oh, that looks like a cool trick shot like that looks fancy. But it's one that you can probably tell it's not that hard and it makes other people want to try it. So I think it's a good one

Nick VinZant  28:29

is I don't know if this is the right word dream golf foursome. Is that

Hailey Ostrom  28:34

Yep. Okay. So my dream golf for some I was I feel like I change it all the time. It just depends on the day. I always include my dad because i think if i he's the one that got me into the game, so if I'm gonna go get to play with with some cool people, then he should get to come with me. So it would be myself and my dad. A problem. Gonna have to say tiger. If I'm gonna have those three then it needs to be Phil. Phil tiger, me and my dad I think would be so fun, but I get to ride in a golf cart with Phil.

Nick VinZant  29:13

You're gonna take Tiger over Phil.

Hailey Ostrom  29:16

Yeah, because Tiger would be so intense and I would probably be so nervous. And I wouldn't want to say anything stupid. So I think with Phil I could just joke around, can have a drink or to have some fun.

Nick VinZant  29:32

Have you ever lost to like a random person?

Hailey Ostrom  29:34

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, I can't think of anything. Anyone on the top of my head. But yeah, there's there's people I actually one of my my friends. His name is Terry. He's like, I think he's 73 years old. And he plays golf here in Arizona and I met him through one of my got my special girlfriends and he invites me I'm going to play with him tomorrow morning. He gets me out once in a while, go play with him and he is such a good golfer. And he can beat me he hits the ball about the same distance as me. And he can beat me on any given day. He's shot his age many, many times.

Nick VinZant  30:14

So, like, do you have, do you have a handicap?

Hailey Ostrom  30:19

No when you're a professional, you don't keep a handicap because you don't need it anymore for tournaments. But I just I play to a scratch, you know, play, play part off but

Nick VinZant  30:28

Lowest that you've ever shot?

Hailey Ostrom  30:31

69 is my low.

Nick VinZant  30:33

That's really all the questions that I have and what's what's kind of coming up next for you.

Hailey Ostrom  30:39

So, you know, because of everything, I don't really have anything right now on the schedule I had. My April and May are my two busiest months for work. And that's kind of when I work really hard to save up a bunch of money and then I'm prepared for the rest of the year for golf tournaments and everything got canceled as you can imagine. So So I don't know right now the tour, I think the Wi Fi tour is supposed to start in June LPGA canceled all of their Monday qualifiers for anybody who doesn't have any LPGA status. So those were at the top of my list for this year, and now, I can't blame them. So I'm i right now my goal is I'm focusing on q School, which got moved to October, and I was gonna make sure I'm prepared for that.

Nick VinZant  31:31

I want to thank Haley so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. She's got a really cool YouTube page. It's really cool. It shows you exactly what goes into being a professional golfer. And there's a lot of creative stuff on social media there as well. We've also, we've noticed a lot of our guests are now creating tic tocs. So we put her tic toc in there as well. And we created a tic toc for this podcast. And because I think that we're kind of too old to get it, we're going to be the awkward people on social media. If you want to check it out, like we'll see how just out of touch we can be for a little while. Hopefully we'll get at least let's try to get five followers by 2021 because I feel like this is gonna go really, really badly for us.