With the Presidential election fast approaching, tension are rising everywhere. But when do those tension spill over into violence? Political Violence and Terrorism Researcher Chelsea Daymon joins us. We talk domestic extremists, religious terrorists and the internet's role in all of it. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.
Interview with Political Violence Researcher Chelsea Daymon
Show Notes and topics covered
What is the most dangerous terrorist group
What is the most dangerous extremist group
Is the United States seeing a rise in domestic terrorism
How are terrorists using the internet and social media
Is terrorism increasing
What is the goal of political violence
Is the United States seeing more far-right terrorism
Nick VinZant 0:11 Hey, everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless, my name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to take a look into the dangerous world of political violence, and then count down the top five Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.
Chelsea Daymon 0:25 And since then we've seen more religious violence, which there is a theory that violence that has a religious angle to it tends to be more lethal. There are a handful of elements broadly, that are looking at the concept of governments and their ideas that the government is too big or too involved in American society. And therefore it needs to change. And more extreme elements may say that it needs to change by bringing down the whole system. And I don't feel like in my lifetime, I've witnessed a time where people are so divided.
Nick VinZant 1:11 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So we usually stay away from politics on this show, just because people get mad, and I don't think that you're going to whichever side you're on, I don't think that you're going to convince anybody. But it's also that mindset. That is something that our first guest studies. Because when you when you look at the current world today, I don't think that anybody would make an argument that tensions aren't high. And those tensions can spill, this can spill over into political violence. Our first guest has some fascinating insight into that world, both domestically here in the United States. And also in terms of terrorism all over the world, and the way that terrorist organizations are using the internet to really get their message across and to recruit people. This is political violence researcher, Chelsea Damon, when you look at political violence right now, are we in a more violent time,
Chelsea Daymon 2:22 We can't really say that we're in a time that's more violent or less violent, there's always been political violence and terrorism throughout history. And today, of course, we see a lot more, mostly, in part because we're so connected as a society. So it's much easier to see what we see on TV or on the internet, and think we're in a time of increased violence. Of course, we have seen a bigger uptick in certain types of political violence, or, as we like to call it terrorism as well, especially since 911. And the whole al Qaeda period that we saw. And then, of course, more recently, in the last number of years, we had ISIS come onto the scene, which really increased a lot of the publicity that we heard about terrorism as well as attacks, both mostly in Iraq and Syria, of course, but also overseas in European countries majorly.
Nick VinZant 3:27 So when we talk about political violence, like what constitutes political violence and terrorism, exactly,
Chelsea Daymon 3:33 so there's debate on that there isn't really an agreed upon definition, although many experts and academics will agree that there are certain elements that equal political violence or terrorism. And that usually includes using violence, most of the time against a population of civilians, and sometimes also government entities or areas, say like a embassy or a base, a military base, but using violence to create either political change or get a message of wanting political change. So using it also almost as what they call a theater of terrorism in the sense of many groups know that if they commit an attack, or what we saw years ago, and especially in the 80s, of hijacking airplanes, that that will get news and it will make the news and it will help the group's message whatever that message might be get more publicity and reach a broader audience that potentially can help them with their cause or gain supporters to their cause.
Nick VinZant 4:51 When you look at kind of the main groups behind political violence all over the world, like who are the big ones that we're talking about,
Chelsea Daymon 4:59 well, that's it. Very loaded question because there are many groups with many different ideologies across the spectrum, currently, or seeing violence that is both causal in the sense that there's a cause back behind it, as well as violence that is based on causes, but also with a religious tinge. But when I say religious, I don't necessarily mean it represents the religion that a group is saying that they're representing. And so there have been waves of terrorism, as they call it. And right now, we do see an uptick in jihadist terrorism, which we've seen for a number of years. And since then, we've seen more religious violence, which there is a theory that violence that has a religious angle to it tends to be more lethal, because there is less restraint in the sense that it is something that potentially in a group's ideology is condoned by a higher power. So there's less restraint in the sense of victims and the types of victims. However, we've also seen political violence that does have angles of more right wing, white supremacist leanings, that's something we're also seeing an uptick in. But it also gets quite complicated because, of course, in the States, for something that may be from the outside looking at it, from seeing it on the news or hearing about it in a newspaper, we might think right away, well, oh, that's terrorism. However, our justice system, sometimes it's much easier to try someone in the court of law, not on terrorism charges, but more on Hate, hate crimes and so forth, just because of the way our justice system works. Some of the shootings that maybe someone would say, No, that's terrorism, because they do have an angle that's trying to change some sort of part of the political society, however, isn't like a, an attacker isn't charged on terrorism charges. So
Nick VinZant 7:12 when you kind of look at what's happening in the States, is domestic terrorism, the biggest, the biggest kind of cause for concern? Are we still more worried about foreign terrorism,
Chelsea Daymon 7:23 I would say that foreign terrorism is always a potential issue. I mean, we do have a lot of implementations that we've established here in the States since September 11, which does make it a lot harder for groups to overseas groups, let's put it that way to stage attacks in the US. And I think that's also partly why we saw less ISIS or ISIS inspired attacks here in the States versus what we saw in the last number of years in European countries. However, that doesn't mean that we won't see potentially threats that are either called homegrown threats, or lone wolf is another term. There's a lot of debate on what we should really call them. However, we also have seen a huge uptick since Obama was elected in more right wing extreme right, whatever you want to term it groups or militias here in the States. And we have not actually seen those groups or even leaderless movements reduce, we have seen an increase in attacks that needy it might be on the part of one individual or a couple of individuals. However, it falls under some of the ideas of this extreme right. And the concept of like a leaderless movement. And it gets very tricky, because in the States, we of course, have the First Amendment and freedom of rights and freedom of speech. And when it comes to foreign groups, we have a foreign terrorist list that groups are designated on that list. And when you get into more propaganda and things found on the internet and content on the internet, it's a lot easier to take down content that is attributed to one of these groups on the foreign terrorist list.
Nick VinZant 9:26 When you look at those kind of groups, the ones here in the States, the right wing, white supremacy, like what are they trying to accomplish? What's the goal behind the violence?
Chelsea Daymon 9:36 Once again, that is a loaded question, because it's, it's hard to say that each group or each movement has the same goals. There are multiple branches if you could call them that, or narratives or ideologies that stem from a greater Greater concept, but that all have sort of different things that they're aiming for, I can highlight some of the main things that we see broadly over the more right wing, white nationalists, and all of the other things that fall under that spectrum. One is, of course, the issue of race, and, of course, white power. So a lot of the things you see with neo nazi groups, etc. There are a handful of elements broadly, that are looking at the concept of governments and their ideas that the government's is too big or too involved in American society. And therefore it needs to change. And more extreme elements may say that it needs to change by bringing down the whole system, and then rebuilding. So it's this idea of almost a utopian idea of create or escalate violence, or elements that will escalate unrest so that eventually the system falls, and then a group of individuals will come in and rebuild society into this idea of what they think it should be. And there's a lot of debate in the field about a concept of acceleration ism. And I am not an expert on that. But I can kind of give you a brief idea of the main concept, although there's a lot of elements within that that certain scholars and academics debate on. But acceleration ism is this idea that you accelerate the process of a societal collapse. So therefore, you can rebuild the society into what you think it should be. And while we see that with groups here in the States, we also could say in a sense that certain jihadist groups could also fall into that. And I know this will be very controversial. But if you look at ISIS per se, ISIS had its goal of creating a caliphate during its heyday and ruling land and having this so called state. Of course, the lost the territory, as we've seen now, although the trying to regain some of it. However, ISIS also had an apocalyptic angle to its message and its goals. And will McCants wrote a great book called ISIS apocalypse that's all about this. And if you think about that, the idea of bringing on the apocalypse or the collapse of society, it's almost something that a lot of groups, at some point have in the back of their minds of collapsing society or having an apocalypse then therefore, you build a utopian society afterwards.I mean, a lot of the narratives here in the states that we're seeing is also very anti immigrant, anti the other, there's this concept of othering, in psychology and social sciences of groups, look at themselves, as you know, you're a member of a group, but everyone else that's not a member is outside of the group, they're an other and when individuals take othering to the extreme, because of course, we could say, looking at as an analogy of sports teams here in the state, someone could say that they like baseball team a. And then you have a friend that likes baseball team B. And you know, each one is a member of or supports a different group. And yes, you can see that your friend that likes baseball, Team A is the other and it's more a fun thing. And you know, you joke about your team that you better and so forth. But if you take that to the extreme, and we see this with violence, in general, and in terrorism studies, you can actually look at the other and start dehumanizing them as an individual, we see this with hate crimes as well in terrorism. And when you look at someone so much as an other and dehumanize them, then it's much easier to commit acts of violence against them because you don't really see them as human. And we're seeing some of this to an extent, like I said, with rhetoric on anti immigrant, and so forth and individuals from different nationalities and races, unfortunately. And it's it's hard to times separate some of this rhetoric with things we do here in in coming from politicians, because we have seen a lot of debates on immigration here in the States. And so I think while that comes from more of a political debate, sometimes these ideas She will, more extreme elements to take on these narratives and adjust them to their own liking and their own messaging to gain support.
Nick VinZant 15:11 So when I look at some of the ones, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but some of the ones here in the States and other places, it seems almost as if like, it's the dog chasing the car, so to speak, like with these groups, if they got what they want, would they really even know what to do? Right, like, let's say, this movement in the states takes down the government. Well, now what? Like, did they have any kind of organization? Are they just kind of trying to start the revolution and see what happens?
Chelsea Daymon 15:41 That's a really great question. And I personally cannot answer that. I don't think I mean, some will probably disagree with me. But I don't think that a lot of these movements in the States, at least in their current form, are strong enough have the resources and the manpower to actually overthrow the governments. I think some of them have capabilities, enough to create more civil unrest.
Nick VinZant 16:08 How were some of these different groups using the internet? I know, that's one of the things that you kind of study.
Chelsea Daymon 16:13 Yeah. So it's interesting. Once again, it's similar and different, depending on the types of groups we're talking about. I'm sure some of your listeners at least have heard about the Islamic State ISIS. And their use of the internet, because they really kind of took the internet and what it had to offer to the next level, ISIS came on the scene, of course, during this age where there is much more fluidity, and you could be your own propagandist and own content creator, where they were actually very smart with their media capabilities. And this was from everything from using these platforms, to also using software and creating videos that were actually really most of them really well done. Not all of them, but they they had capabilities, where the editing, and the way that they the stories within these videos, and the way the videos were done, were very dynamic. And depending on where you stood on the spectrum, like if you were someone that potentially was looking at ISIS as a group that you might want to join the videos, in the heyday of ISIS were really well done to the extent that they were engaging. I mean, even as a researcher, you can see the difference between older groups and how they used media and videos between ISIS group videos and groups, as well as using platforms like they used to use more social media platforms that were not as heavily encrypted. They later moved to encrypted platforms, but before they were on Twitter, and had a very strong presence on Twitter until about 2016, when Twitter heavily crackdown on ISIS accounts in any ISIS supporter accounts. But before that, you know, they were disseminating content links to content across other websites and and sharing sites and other social media platforms where you could also get content. And so they really knew how to utilize these platforms to spread their message spread their propaganda, hijacking, hashtags like for at one point, they hijacked a Justin Bieber hashtag and flooded Twitter, with ISIS propaganda. So if anyone went to this Justin Bieber hashtag, they started seeing ISIS content, change the game a little bit. It made ISIS and its supporters move to encrypted platforms, which their favorite one was telegram and on telegram, it still allowed them to disseminate all of their content, including everything from the videos, to newsletters to magazines. ISIS inspired gifts and memes. And so it gave them an environment of supporters and like minded individuals. It also cut down on how much they could recruit because it was or it is telegram is an encrypted platform and therefore, you need to have access to it. And then when you have access to it, you have to find access to channels or chats that are ISIS supporters or ISIS news agencies and so forth. But as as researchers and the tech companies and industries realized what was going on, through the years it's they've become much better at getting rid of content and preventing From being spread across different platforms, there's a organization gifts si t that works with some of the big names like Google and YouTube and also smaller entities to share information when when something is posted on one website. So say like a video was posted on YouTube, they can identify that content through digital hashes. And then the digital hashes are shared amongst a whole consortium of tech companies and social media companies, etc, which can take that content off of all the platforms all at once. But they do tend to try to go to platforms that are a little bit more secure, that have some sort of encryption. But they also are on platforms like Tick tock, and we've seen them on WhatsApp and rocket chat is another one. So when we think of content from more of the right wing, white supremacist groups, once again, that gets a little bit more complicated because of freedom of speech and laws on being able to post things, especially here in the States. So a lot of content tends to stay on platforms unless it violates their terms of service, or use, which as a user of say, Twitter or Facebook, when you have an account, you agree to abiding by these terms of service or use. So that's a whole nother can of worms.
Nick VinZant 21:38 Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?
Chelsea Daymon 21:44 Oh, my Oh, okay. Yes, let's let's try this out. Hopefully, I'll be able to answer them.
Nick VinZant 21:48 What scares you?
Chelsea Daymon 21:51 Hmm. Wow. You know, no one has ever asked me that question. And I think that's a fabulous question. And it can go in so many directions. But I, for me, personally, what scares me is not necessarily related to say, terrorist groups political violence. It's, it's more looking at, especially here in the States, I'd say, I feel like there's a greater division of society, then. I remember growing up, I mean, I'm American citizen, I've lived overseas as well. But I've spent most of my life in the States. And I don't feel like in my lifetime, I've witnessed a time where people are so divided. And I feel like Unfortunately, the division is creating. I wouldn't say culture, that's not the right word. But it's creating an environment that it's it's very hard to have a rational conversation with individuals about topics, whether it might be politics, or say, like the protests we've seen here in the States. And I feel like facts and entities and individuals that we used to be able to look at as figures that would provide straight facts and reliable facts. Like we don't always have that anymore. And and as someone that kind of sometimes does a deep dive with extremist groups and cycle psychology of individuals involved and narratives and propaganda and so forth. If you do see that, somewhat. And so I think that scares me is that that lack of rational thinking that I'm witnessing in our society here in the States?
Nick VinZant 23:51 Is there a kind of a common theme among people who get sucked into these different groups?
Chelsea Daymon 23:57 Ah, you know, that's something that all of us, including researchers from years ago, before my time, people have always wanted sort of a profile of someone that will become a terrorist. And I think maybe people that watch, especially TV shows that have to do with true crime or shows that are based around investigations and so forth of crime. You know, there's this idea that there's a profile of a serial killer or proof profile of a race, rapist. And people have tried to come up with a profile of someone that will get involved in in terrorism or political violence. And to this date, we do not have one. It's all the research we've seen. It's very much a personal process and very individualized. There are some things that people might have in common, but once again, it's not everyone. It can be everything from we've seen people that are disgruntled about something that they see in their society or their their environment and and this level of disenfranchisement or or disgruntlement can lead to more feelings of anger, where they get to the point that they think the only way they can express these feelings is through violent actions. We've also seen where, especially, for instance, with individuals that traveled to ISIS from foreign countries that were not involved in Syria or Iraq, so what we call foreign fighters. Like individuals, we saw a handful of groups of friends that went from countries like the UK, and they traveled together for ice to ISIS to join the group. And, and this kind of falls into this idea of sometimes people, it's, it's going with a crowd, or going along with their friends, or looking for an adventure, or also the concept of being involved in something that they think is bigger than themselves. So when you kind of look at individuals that have relayed their story of getting involved in groups, a lot of the time you can actually point relate to some of the things they say like sometimes people truly thought that a group and their motives was for a good cause.
Nick VinZant 26:30 feet to the fire, you had to pick one. Who's the most dangerous group out there right now?
Chelsea Daymon 26:35 Oh, wow. Um, I'm not sure I could say there's a most dangerous group, because they all are. There are a lot of active groups, they all have different motivations and different things that they want. I mean, if you had asked me that question, say a couple of years ago, I would would have said ISIS just because they're highly active and fairly well organized in the sense of getting individuals and motivating Angel individuals to join them, and then also commit acts on their part. But now, I don't know if it's necessarily a specific group, I do see the rise in this extreme alt right, right wing narratives that we're seeing as dangerous. I wouldn't necessarily say they're dangerous on the level of attacks. Like, I don't I don't see that. It's on the level of like, what we saw on 911, and so forth. So I, I couldn't really say that there's the most dangerous group, I think there are a lot of active groups. And we will probably see groups across multiple spectrums take advantage of governments that are preoccupied with COVID-19. Because that is kind of what's putting a strain on a lot of countries right now.
Nick VinZant 28:03 That's pretty much all the questions I have what's coming up next for you.
Chelsea Daymon 28:07 Oh, next for me is continuing my PhD, which I'm highly involved in. So that's a long process, of course. So dissertation research and writing and so forth. And then continuing research, of course, specifically on groups use of the internet and platforms. And other than that, I guess it's it's kind of like a day by day thing at this point.
Nick VinZant 28:33 I want to thank Chelsea so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.