Celebrity Groomer Marissa Machado

Nick Jonas, Michael Keaton, Rami Malek, her clients are some of the biggest names in movies and music. But what does it take to to keep leading men looking good. Go behind the scenes with Celebrity Groomer Marissa Machado. We talk breaking into the industry, working with celebrities and how to look your best. Then, it’s a fierce competition between water and the sky as we countdown the Top 5 Blue Things.

Marissa Machado: 02:03

Pointless: 38:18

Top 5: 58:02

Contact the Show

Marissa Machado Instagram

Marissa's Portfolio and Work

Art Department LA

Hollywood Groomer of the Year Vote (Closes February 10)

Celebrity Groomer Marissa Machado

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode looking like a celebrity, and the best blue things,

Marissa Machado 0:22

I just want them to look their best to where when they hit the stage, the carpet, whatever. Everyone's looking at him and just thinking, man, he looks good. I just did whatever I could to be part of it. Because I just thought one day, it'll be my big break, and it took about five years, you have to really love it because there are ups and downs. And when you're riding that wave really high, it is fantastic. But when you're in that, when you're riding that wave low, it can be really dark. And you have to remember those highs to keep yourself balanced for the lows. I think for a man to look good, you should do these things. These things are,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest specializes in getting Hollywood's leading men to look their best. Nick Jonas Michael Keaton, Remy Malick, her clients are a who's who have movies and music. But what I think is really interesting is not just the behind the scenes working of celebrity, but the tips that she has, that everybody else can use in their life to look their best. And her her story about persevering and figuring out what it is that you want to do. And just going after it, no matter what challenges are in your way. This is celebrity men's groomer Marissa Machado. When you started out, like did you specifically want to work with celebrities or was this kind of something that just happened?

Marissa Machado 2:09

I specifically set out to work with celebrities. I I grew up in Bakersfield, California, my family's all in agriculture. But my mother was an avid Entertainment Tonight, watcher and she made clothing. So she always had an eye for fashion. And that was something we enjoyed together. i From a young age loved. I would always cut my Barbies hair, cut my daughter's hair, which transpired into school dances of doing friends hair and makeup. You know, when I was in high school, young girls, we didn't hire makeup artists, there wasn't such thing. So we just did it ourselves. So I just became the girl that people would come to and I loved. I loved watching the red carpet. And I wanted to just I want it to be the reason why they looked so good. We didn't know anything about Hollywood. It's only an hour and a half away. But it's a vastly different world. So I didn't have those connections. And it was just sort of one step at a time as to how I was going to get to Hollywood and how I was going to get my foot in the door.

Nick VinZant 3:11

How difficult was it to kind of get your foot in the door. I mean, how competitive of an industry is this?

Marissa Machado 3:16

It's extremely competitive. And the difference is I moved here in 2003 I moved to Los Angeles in 2003. And when I started I was working at a makeup counter for Steelo cosmetics. I got that job. When I finished cosmetology school. My passion was more in makeup at the time, even though I always loved hair. So I got a job at the makeup counter. And when I went to work every day I would meet you know different people that were I don't know getting married or so you know, I started doing weddings. There was no such thing as social media. You couldn't I mean, there was no direct into these agents, photographers, other makeup artists to assist to get my foot in the door that way. So it was really about meeting people at the makeup counter. And I slowly you know, I started working in Barney's in Beverly Hills and I would go in there and work at the steel counter. And I would just meet different people and from there I met a makeup artist who led me to his agent and I started assisting and and then that got your foot in the door. But if you didn't come with any celebrities, they didn't want to take you so it was a real catch. 22 it was it was difficult. I took every single job that came my way whether there was money or not I assisted stylist and fashion. I assisted hairdressers, I assisted makeup artists. I just did whatever I could to be part of it. Because I just thought one day it'll be my big break. And it took about five years.

Nick VinZant 4:51

Is that normal? I guess for getting into the industry in terms of like that's how people usually get in. This is how it usually takes or would you say that you're kind of an aberration one way or another.

Marissa Machado 5:03

I think that's how it used to happen. I know now I have people direct messaged me saying, you know, I'd love to assist you, if you ever need an extra set of hands, I would have loved that opportunity to reach out to these people and say, Hey, I'm willing to work, you know, because I was. So I think I don't know what the appropriate time to break in is. I know, people that assisted a lot longer than me before they got their big break. I know people that are still doing the type of jobs I was doing when I was assisting and they're, they're completely happy. For me, I just, I just kept thinking there was there was, it was going to happen. And there there was going to be something more I don't know, I set. Like I said, from age 14, I said, this is what I was going to do. And it's like, there was just something in my mind that I knew I was going to do it. And I also had that thing in my mind that was like, I have to prove to everybody that I really did it.

Nick VinZant 5:57

Earlier this morning, interviewed someone who's a gold and motivation researcher, she's like, the most successful people are people with slight chips on their shoulder. Gotta have a slight chip and the sense that like, I'm gonna show him, show him I'm going to show them all.

Marissa Machado 6:14

Yeah, it was like family members, high school counselors, all those people, you know, I had to prove to them because when I went to my high school, college counseling meetings, and they asked me what I wanted to do, I told them, I was gonna go to Santa Barbara to do your city college and have a college experience. But I was gonna move to Hollywood. And I was going to do you know, hair and makeup for celebrities? And I said, I'm going to travel the world. And their response would say, well, you should have a backup plan, what's your backup plan? And I just said, there is no backup plan. This is what I will do. So yeah, I definitely had something to prove, I suppose. Good for you. Some clients take you everywhere around the world with them, you're their only person, some clients hire you, just when they're in LA, and then maybe they have their person in New York or you know, Europe or whatever. So but usually, once you're established with those clients, if they're around in town, and they have things going on, you're going to be that person, there's not going to be that sort of competition. However, yes, when you're starting out, it is. It's one of those things that it is not for the faint of heart. It's, it's not an easy job. You really don't. It's like, okay, I don't know how to explain this, you really don't get a lot of praise. And even if you do want a lot of praise, you're going to kind of have to find it within yourself. Because in the men's grooming world. We're not celebrated, I suppose as much as maybe hairdressers or makeup artists that are working with females, because we're celebrating the makeup, right? We're celebrating the look, the thing about a man grooming a man is that you want to just present them as a good looking man. Right? So it's not about what they have on it's, it's just, they should just walk in and look good. And nobody's asking what they have on or why they look so good. They just do. So you really don't, you really don't get that sort of shine. So you have to you have to find it within within yourself and which maybe isn't for everybody, but it works for me. It works for me, because I'm not somebody who likes to be center stage or any of those sorts of things.

Nick VinZant 8:27

I that makes sense, right? Like, I want to be on the winning team. But I don't care if I'm the player I get. Yeah. And it almost reminds me to continue this sports analogy of kind of like the kicker. If you make the kick, you are supposed to make the kick the whole time, right. Like you're only acknowledged if you've done something wrong, essentially.

Marissa Machado 8:44

You're right. You're right. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 8:47

How so? How is working with a celebrity different than like working with another high end client?

Marissa Machado 8:52

Yes, every job varies. And every salon celebrity varies, you know, and I think that one of the most important things about my job is understanding how to be around people not just being good at what you do. But understanding how to read people, maybe what mood they're in, just sort of feeling the energy in the room and understanding when it's when it's time to speak, when it's not time to speak how much you should be saying, you know, what kind of space are they in an understanding that also, maybe they're going out to do an appearance on let's say, Jimmy Fallon. And maybe it's one of their first big, you know, late night appearances. They might be in their head about it, they're nervous about it, you know, but you can't take that on and take it personally. You have to understand the space that they're in, and respect, respect that you know, so. And some celebrities, you know, maybe you're gonna go in and you know, that we're not going to speak it's going to be it's going to be 20 to 30 minutes, where I'm going to just do what I need to do work around them and then get in and get out. Other people. I'm going to walk in the door. They're going to ask me, How am I Family is what's been going on. You know, it's, it's, it's different between between everybody, but I do have a client that I work with often who is a CEO of a company. And he just, he likes to be groomed for his zoom meetings and such. And, yeah, that's just like, I don't know, that's just having a normal conversation with anyone, it kind of, it takes the pressure off. But at the same time, I want to do equally as good a job, you know, I want to make that man feel as important as if he were on the red carpet.

Nick VinZant 10:29

I know, this is kind of a super broad question, right? But say you're getting somebody ready for a red carpet event or to go on Jimmy Kimmel, or any of those kinds of things. Like what is that? What do you do? When do you show up? What's that process like?

Marissa Machado 10:42

Those are, I'll be honest, my favorite kind of days, my favorite day. I mean, this is just as I've gotten older, my favorite days are the days where you just the job is like a couple hours. And so I get to have like my morning to myself on those kind of days. They don't, as you said, Jimmy Kimmel. So when I'm doing Jimmy Kimmel, I have the whole morning to myself, then I get all my stuff ready, which is my kit, which is basically like a 40 pound suitcase. It's a carry on sized suitcase that has everything that I know I need for that person. Plus anything that could just possibly come up that you you need, because Murphy's Law, like I always have a client asked me for that one thing that I just don't have, or I just took out of my kit for some reason. So you want to make sure you have everything. And then I arrive usually around 3pm 3:30pm 30 minutes before the client, I get there. And I get set up, which I'm, as you mentioned, in the beginning, you have an OCD brain. I do too, I like my setup to be very clean and very specific in the sense of, I'm only putting out what's necessary, I don't like to be veered off track for any reason. So everything is laid out in a specific order of use. And it varies per person, what products those will be, from face products to hair products. And then usually the client will get there, you know, the publicist greets them, they come in, they say hello to everybody, they get a little briefing, and then they sit down with me. So that's where I mentioned earlier, that's that time where I've had a few moments to sort of read their energy and where they are as to how that session between us is going to go if we're going to chit chat about whatever they're promoting, you know, but for the most part, they sit down and if anything's changed within within the way they look, I'll ask, you know, what are you using in your hair? Now maybe I haven't seen them for a couple of months, and the hairstyle is different. And I'll say, Oh, what are you using in your hair now something along those lines or anything different you want me to do. But for the most part, I just do my thing. Because as I say, at this point, I have a group of men that I work with. So that is sort of the luxury of them hiring him is hiring me is that I don't have to ask them questions or say anything I already know what to do. It's this, this very, you know, it's a dance, it's I kind of do my thing. I finish them up, I at the end of my grooming, I always hand them their chapstick as I hand them their chapstick that I take off the cape, and then they're off to the stylist and then they get dressed. And right before they go on, I like to do a last look, check them out, you know, and then they're off to the show. And after that, that's really all you can do. Some shows like The James Corden show, The Late Late Show, some shows have segments where you can actually go out in the commercial break and adjust. But some of the shows if they're just on for one segment, you know, it's like, once they're out there, they're out there. So then you just then as they're out there, I watch them on the monitor, I enjoy what they say. I always listen because I know they're gonna come back and maybe want feedback on how they did. As I pack up my stuff, then they come back we all laugh about or talk about the appearance. And then I'm back home, back to cook dinner, whatever it is,

Nick VinZant 13:57

when you're dealing with kind of celebrity clients, like how nitpicky slash whatever word you want to use, do you have to be in the sense of like, look, that left? Hey, there's a hair on my left ear that was out of place? Like are you checking every single thing that's got to be imperfect position? Or is it kind of like, Alright, you're good to go.

Marissa Machado 14:15

When they're in my chair, I'm checking every single thing. But then there's gonna, and we're talking men, right? So like, I would think that women are more particular more careful, more worried about it, like, I could finish grooming a guy and he could be like, You know what, I have a little bit of downtime. I'm just going to go do a quick workout. And I could stress about it. I think everything I just did is I'm gonna have to redo it. Or I just have to say like, this is what it is. He's a guy he wants to get those push ups in or whatever, I get it, you know, so or they're gonna go change and just pull their shirt over their head and not even think about it, you know? But once they're on set, I become their mirror because they can't see themselves. So then I have to I have to seek for them. So yes, that's okay. If the cameras just face to face with somebody and I saw hair out of place in the back of their head that nobody else is going to see, I'm not going to jump in and ruin their flow of whatever it is to fix this one hair, I'm going to look from the camera angle and see what everybody's seeing. And then worry about that. Because I don't like to, I don't like to step in for touch ups unless it's necessary, because I think it just breaks the flow of everything, and it slows down production. So I like to make sure that they're good when they're go out, I like to take a look at the camera, from what I'm seeing, make sure that everything's in place, and then only have to step in accordingly. But if I have a guy with long hair, which I do have guys with longer hair, and they're moving around, I'm gonna have to go in more often, because there's going to be hair falling in the face covering an eye creating a shadow, whatever, whatever it may be. So yeah, it's delicate.

Nick VinZant 15:55

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. Do you have the juice? And I think what they mean by that is like, they're not asking you to share the juice. But do you generally have the juice?

Marissa Machado 16:06

Oh, like the juice doesn't like the gossip? Like the gossip, I

Nick VinZant 16:10

think is what they mean. Yeah,

Marissa Machado 16:12

I do hear a lot. And I think that the reason that I've been able to keep my job is because I don't repeat the juice. It's one of those things, you kind of just put it in the vault, you know it, and then you see different things on social media or on TV or in magazines said about people. And you just think they've got it all wrong, or Oh, my God, they've got it totally right. But you can't ever say anything, because you won't work. You won't work.

Nick VinZant 16:40

Yeah, that's a pretty fast way to burn your reputation, which is why I think they didn't ask any specifics more just like do you?

Marissa Machado 16:46

I do?

Nick VinZant 16:48

I would imagine so right? There's something about sitting in that chair, where you just like, you start to open up to people a little bit, or you hear things. Yeah. And

Marissa Machado 16:57

you also you overhear conversations around you. And for the most part, I like to leave the room when I know that it's conversation that I shouldn't be hearing, because I don't even want to be placed in the situation of well, Marissa hurt that or Marissa was around when that was said, it's like, if I'm not part of this, I'm just going to excuse myself, because I don't actually want to be part of it.

Nick VinZant 17:19

How much are you really doing? And they mean this in a nice way, in the sense that like, are these fundamentally good looking people in the beginning? Like are you turning sevens into nines are you turned in like threes and eights,

Marissa Machado 17:31

you can certainly take a look at my work. I work with men from you know, their 20s to their 70s. So, as far as fundable fundamentally good looking, I guess that depends on your scale, have a good looking as I find them all attractive, I think they're all good looking men. Okay, I don't really think I'm turning anyone in from like a low number to a high number. My goal always is to walk in and make that man be the best version of himself. Because everybody's scale of what good looking is going to be different. So everyone's scale of a number is going to be different. But I just want them to look their best to where when they hit the stage, the carpet, whatever. Everyone's looking at him and just thinking, man, he looks good. Whoever it is.

Nick VinZant 18:18

Would you say that there's a commonality, though, in the sense of like getting a man to look good. You should do these things.

Marissa Machado 18:25

Yes. I think for a man to look good, you should do these things. These things are checking your ears, making sure you don't have your hair growing, checking your nose, making sure you don't have wild nose hair. Your facial hair thinking about the structure of your face and how that facial hair is actually changing your face structure. Is it making your face look fuller wider? Is it Do you have a beard that's bringing your face down? All these type of things, I think make the difference in a man and my number one thing and a guy that like when I'm on the street or anywhere that I just can't help but notice is how many men let their neck lines just overgrow and never clean it up. And I just think it's one of those things in life. If you have a significant other, they could really help a guy out by doing that whoever that is even a family member, whatever, who if you have someone around you, it's like so many men just let that neckline overgrowth straight into their back and it just crushes my eyes.

Nick VinZant 19:26

Yeah, I would imagine that makes your eyes twitch. But can you Okay, can you go like walk down the street without just being like, oh, you know if you did this if you did that. Do you find yourself constantly judging people's hair?

Marissa Machado 19:39

No. Okay, I only I typically only judge people or look at them in that way if they asked me to because you know, it's one of when you when I was younger and I wanted to do makeup, right? It was fun to play makeup. But as I'm older and this is my job. When I'm not in my job, I try not to be in my job. Have any more, even though it's a fun job, and I love it, when I'm not doing it, I'm not thinking it necessarily. So I'm not always walking down the street thinking, oh blah, blah, blah. Now if somebody showed me a picture of a guy, right? Oh, this is so and so or oh, I'm dating him or whatever, then I'm going to look at that man. And think to myself, Oh, if he just did this, or if he grew his hair this way, whatever. I do think those things for sure.

Nick VinZant 20:26

Do most people have a generally right are kind of generally wrong.

Marissa Machado 20:30

I think that I mean, again, it's Where are you living? I live in Los Angeles. So I think that most people generally have it right in the sense that we are a little consumed with how we look in, in Los Angeles, we do live in this world of Hollywood and celebrity and plastic surgery and fitness and all of those things. So I think that people here genuinely, genuinely, you know, do have it right. I think I don't want to name a state. But I think if I go to somewhere in middle America, I'm going to say Not really. Also even when I go to my hometown, when I went to Bakersfield recently like my, my dad started going to my my brother's barber because his hairdresser retired. He had an old school hairdresser that I used to watch in the salon as a little girl. And you know, he's older, he retired and he used to cut my dad's hair scissor over comb this beautiful hair cut. And now my dad's go into this Barber. And though the guy's a great Barber, he's cutting my dad's hair, like he's cutting my brother's hair. And my dad doesn't need high and tight. You know, he's, he's 70 years old. So, you know, it's where are you as to how they're getting it.

Nick VinZant 21:44

As a person from Kansas, I can say I understand. You can sometimes go back in time a little bit. Um, what celebrity do you ultimately think has the best haircut?

Marissa Machado 21:57

Okay, I'm gonna say this. There's one celebrity that I think always has it right, as far as haircuts. And it's not one specific haircut. It's many. And that's Brad Pitt. I think that Brad Pitt is ever changing his hairstyles, and they're always right. We always love them along the way. You can ask any person about Brad Pitt, and they're going to name a time when they loved Brad Pitt. And it's going to be a different look from the time that the other person loved Brad Pitt. So it's like, even with all these different haircuts and hairstyles, he's always getting it right.

Nick VinZant 22:31

I completely agree. Like I'm married with two children, I would completely agree like Brad Pitt always has good hair, like it looks no matter what he does, it always looks like yeah, he never looks bad in any haircut. And you can't say that about a lot of people.

Marissa Machado 22:48

Not a lot of people the other person. So the reason I bring up bring up Brad Pitt is because whenever I have clients that will start discussing like a new look. And it's more on the music side of things that I feel like people go for new looks more my music clients. I think it's just you have more freedom to have new looks versus actors, because they're playing characters. So I always love to reference Brad Pitt, because we've had so many different looks along the way. And the other one that I reference a lot is David Beckham because David Beckham is another man who has had so many looks along the way. And though I might not think they're all right, I think that we could go through and again, people are gonna, at some point, love all of them. But I like I like men that can change up their look. And people, people all people in general are still attracted to it.

Nick VinZant 23:37

What is your favorite trend haircut? What is your least favorite trend haircut and we can go all time,

Marissa Machado 23:44

most recently, the one that I could not wait to end was the super faded sides. I was just so tired of seeing every guy with the same look just that really, really faded, like almost almost, you know, on a zero, you know, like, just at the scalp, you know, and then rising up above the ear and then the top kind of just being messy. I was I was just so tired of seeing it. I missed it the days of Nick Minh, who's Nick of men having natural necklines, and so I I'm liking seeing more of that kind of come about I think that we're having more length on men's hair and you're seeing actors like Bruce just most recently hitting the carpet so often like Austin Butler, you know who just finished this whole Elvis campaign his longer hair I just didn't we've got Timothy Chanel Chanel, I

Nick VinZant 24:39

can never say his I can never do that when he I think it's like anyway, he's got the long

Marissa Machado 24:43

curls and I I'm really enjoying that we're seeing longer hair come about one I know I mentioned another style that I want to go away but actually this just came to me the one style that I really really want to go away currently that hasn't gone away is this tick tock hairstyle that all the young boys have. And it's all shaved up on the sides. And then the top kind of swoops forward and then back. It's like it comes forward sweeps back and then it kind of flips up all around the edges. And all the tick tock, guys like the Tick Tock stars have this haircut, leading my nieces in high school, and every single boy has the same hairstyle. And I just, I can't understand it. Because when I was in school, the guys didn't have the same hairstyle. Everybody kind of had their own thing, which could have just been more like yours like crew cut style, but it wasn't like a specific look that everyone had to have at the same time.

Nick VinZant 25:41

For I remember it was called the standard boys haircut, which is like what I have and what most people that I grew up with men my age all have the standard boys haircut. Right? It wasn't a style. It was just like, right kid's hair cut. And that's how you cut it. Yes.

Marissa Machado 25:54

Yes, exactly. There's sort of a lack of individuality right now that I see in this in a younger generation and, and everyone wanting to they they find one celebrity or one person that they idolize, and then everyone tries to tries to look that exact way. It's like I just, you know, I think it's better when people go with what, what they feel, you know, that they want to do or what they think looks best on them, but not based on because somebody else did it.

Nick VinZant 26:24

What should I do about back hair.

Marissa Machado 26:27

Okay, couple options. I'm assuming this is a man. But if it's not, even if it's a woman, you could do the same thing. A quick fix is to always just shave it. I know that can become a process if you don't have somebody to help you because you can't get back there. The second option is to get it waxed, you could once a month go into your waxer. And you know, the thing about waxing is it doesn't grow, you know, eventually over time the hair will die, it gets tired of being ripped out of the skin. So it will die over time and you will get lesser hair, it's not going to go away permanently, it's going to be something you have to continue to do. The permanent option is laser. There are a couple of things with laser though. It works best on people with light skin, but dark hair, because it has to pick up on the skin. So it's like if you had light skin Bud Light hair, the laser isn't going to pick up the hair follicle. So the darker the hair, the better it is, but the skin needs to be lighter. So it's one of those things that you want to do when you're out of the sun. Maybe in the winter. You're not. Yeah, we should all be out of the sun at this point, but we're not. And so it's those type of things. It doesn't always work on people with darker skin as well. They might have to go through more sessions also. The skin can scar you know, so it's there's pros and cons to all of those. I'll be honest,

Nick VinZant 27:50

bowl cut, man bun, or what's the Mohawk? Oh no, the mullet that's what they that that's what they Oh, they literally just put bowl cut man bun or mullet.

Marissa Machado 28:04

If I'm gonna pick a favorite out of those three. I'm gonna go with the mullet. And I know that sounds ridiculous. But a mullet could either look really trashy, or it could also look really cool. Just depending on how you style them all. I have a client that I've worked with for like 10 years now his name is Travis femoral and he was on the show Vikings, which he had these crazy haircuts and braids and stuff. And one night he had a premiere and right before the premiere. He took my face trimmer because he also has this long beard. He took my face drummer and he just kind of went up the side of his head, thinking it was funny right before his prayers like, oh shit, you know, so I kind of just had to roll with it. And I ended up shaving the sides into this kind of cool mullet. And then I don't know it just it really worked on him. It looked really cool. I've also seen a revival of mullets and the last few months to be honest, like even like some reality people and different people going for this look. I saw a stylist the other day kind of growing his back out a little bit but keeping you know, so I think a mole it could be cool. I think a bowl cut just takes me back to my childhood. My brother had a bowl cut for a while. And it was very cute in the late 80s, early 90s. Bullet mold cut and man bun man bun. You got to be a real man. I don't know. That's like, I think it only works on types like Jason Momoa. If that makes sense. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 29:34

you've got to be like six five to 15 It'd

Marissa Machado 29:37

be like grizzly. You know what I mean? Like, you got to have some grit to you. Because otherwise you go too pretty. And then it's not my thing.

Nick VinZant 29:48

That's what it is. That's what annoyed me about that trend. People went pretty with it and it didn't work like you've got to be I just finished chopping down lumber and fighting off a bear and Yes, and I feel like that works. Yeah. Yeah.

Marissa Machado 30:03

My hair was like so sweaty that I just had to throw it back in this messy bod. You know, right.

Nick VinZant 30:09

Like, I had to pull that child from the river and this hair was way so I put it in a bond, they just can't be wet. Yeah. What's trendy? Like what trends do you kind of see common?

Marissa Machado 30:20

The the more natural hair lines coming back sort of more of a 90s effort? Like think like, I know this is gonna sound so boring. But like the the Richard Gere types of the 90s Right, the Dennis Quaid types of the 90s, sort of just these more gentleman's haircuts, not the super shape sides. But I just think we're going to start seeing more length all around. And yeah, I just more length all around not, I think that the barber shops were really, really busy for a while. And that was a specific look. And I think we're kind of we're going back to a scissor haircut.

Nick VinZant 31:00

So you were nominated for Hollywood Beauty Awards groomer of the year, when did you find out? What was that kind of like?

Marissa Machado 31:07

I found out, I guess, just about a month ago, I found out that I was that I was being nominated. And I'll be honest, my first reaction is to think Thank you, my, my real reaction is to think that's not really something I want to participate in. Because as I mentioned, at the very beginning of this, I don't like a lot of attention, but I like to win. So it's a lose lose, in my opinion, it's one of those things that I would hate to lose. But I don't want the attention if I win. So I think it's a real honor. It's it's very nice of my peers or, you know, people to recognize me. For my work. I think it's it's really nice. But again, I'm just so uncomfortable in talking about myself in that way. It's one thing to answer questions when you ask me questions. Yeah. Yeah, I have. It's really nice. It's an honor. It is an honor.

Nick VinZant 32:07

Congratulations. I think it's great. Yeah.

Marissa Machado 32:10

Thank you. Because I'm like getting red.

Nick VinZant 32:14

Men are men easier? Are they harder?

Marissa Machado 32:17

This is a common question. And it's not easier as far as the job goes. Because there are some difficult men, there are some really particular men. And I always say it's easier for me because I have two brothers, I was raised around a lot of men. And I don't know, I think I'm a bit of a tomboy. I think that I can relate to them in a way and understand I don't know, I understand the process with them. I'm not somebody who looks in the mirror all the time and is obsessed with how I look. So therefore I don't become obsessed with the way other people look to where I get really nitpicky on their face. And I feel that's more the way women go. So it just, it works for me, because it's like you do the job. You have a nice bond. You tell them they look handsome, and then they feel good about their day. You know, just like most men in general, not one specific man. But most men, you know,

Nick VinZant 33:09

we're a lot easier, right? Like, I can speak for me specifically, as long as my hair is still there. I'm not gonna say anything bad about it. Like,

Marissa Machado 33:17

honestly, that is the number one concern, I will tell you with men and hair is losing it and it thinning. And I always anybody that always anybody that ever makes a joke about a man's hair thinning or losing their hair. I'm always like, no, no, that's off bound. Like that's out of bounds. Because I think that is men's number one insecurity is losing their hair. And it's a sensitive topic. So I really I don't joke about it. But yeah, that is very, something that's very common.

Nick VinZant 33:47

You can always tell when a guy starts wearing hats and a lot of at like, Oh, he's noticed it's going

Marissa Machado 33:52

or they start styling the hair where it kind of goes forward a little bit on the sides, you know?

Nick VinZant 33:57

Yeah. Is there anything that meant like, you're going bald? Well, it's time to get it over with like, what should men do in those last days before?

Marissa Machado 34:07

Yeah, I think that if you've gotten to the place where you're just holding on to the few strands, then you've basically been going about your life being bald anyway. Right? So you might as well just shave it. But I think that if you're especially like in your early 20s, and you're starting to notice your hair thinning, and you have the financial means, I think that you should absolutely look into getting hair transplants because they've come an incredibly long way to where people are growing back full heads of hair, and if you do it early on before it gets really bad and noticeable. You can really change the trajectory of what your hair is going to be like in your 40s and 50s. So I think that if you're looking around your family and you're noticing maybe your your mom's dad is bald, you know, and maybe your hairline is starting to recede in that way. And and you have the financial means It's definitely something to look into. Because I've, I've had some incredible results on on people that I know that I've recommended a doctor to in LA. And you would never know ever know. So that's the route I would go. But if you're already going around, basically bald with your couple hairs on the top that you're pulling over, yeah, just shave it.

Nick VinZant 35:21

Can you say which of your clients has the best hair? Not hair cut, but like, oh, they have the nicest hair? Probably? Like that's the easiest one to work with.

Marissa Machado 35:33

Okay, interesting question. Because the best hair doesn't necessarily mean the easiest to work with. I, gosh, it's so hard to say I'm I have somehow fallen into this world of curly haired clients. It's like I started with the Jonas Brothers. And then from there, people would say, Oh, she's good with curls. So I have a lot of clients that have a lot of curly, nice hair. But I do think I think that Joe Jonas has really beautiful hair that's really easy to style. He's one of those clients that his hair is ever changing, we always kind of go back and bounce ideas off each other for the next look, or the next thing or where he wants it to go. And it's always really fun. And he's his hair. He's got the kind of hair that will do whatever I want. However, I want it to look, it's going to do that. So he I would say, yeah, he could. There's other ones, but I can go with that one easily.

Nick VinZant 36:31

That makes sense. Um, last question for me, what would advice would you give to the next you somebody coming into the business?

Marissa Machado 36:41

I joke with my niece, I tell her, she should come down and she's got my same last name come take over. But the next me? Well, I'm just gonna give the advice that Catherine gave me. And the advice is that you never know who's in the room and who's listening. So everything you say can be repeated. You never want to get yourself into a situation where you're talking too much. So it's it's knowing your place, it's knowing how to be in the room, it's reading the room understanding when to be and where, and why. You know, it's it's knowing how it's being good at your job, but also being really good at reading people. I would say that, you know, it is a struggle. Like I said before, it's not for the faint of heart, you have to really want it, it has to be your dream. This can't just be something that you think, Oh, that looks fun, I'll go do that. You have to really love it. Because there are ups and downs. And when you're riding that wave really high, it is fantastic. But when you're in that when you're riding that wave low, it can be really dark. And you have to remember those highs to keep yourself balanced for the lows.

Embed Block

Add an embed URL or code. Learn more

After-Death Researcher Dr. J. Kim Penberthy

What happens after we die? Psychiatrist Dr. J. Kim Penberthy studies near-death experiences and after-death communications. We talk afterlife experiences, the psychology of death, and the latest science on what’s next. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Michaels.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy: 01:53

Pointless: 46:54

Top 5 Michaels:

Contact the Show

About Dr. J. Kim Penberthy

Living Mindfully Across the Lifespan: Dr. J. Kim Penberthy's Latest Book

Living Mindfully Instagram

Living Mindfully Facebook

Living Mindfully TikTok

Interview with After-Death Researcher Dr. J. Kim Penberthy

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the afterlife. And the best

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 0:19

Michael's, when you look at after people who report after death communications, it's universal. And it's most often seen and people who've had someone they love pass away within the year. For some of these we can look at some time sometimes information is past, the location of missing items or some information. What the research shows people fear most is the pain of dying, the process of dying,

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out if you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies what happens after we die? So our first guest studies one of if not the biggest question that we all face. What happens after we die? She researches near death experiences and after death communications, to find out what's real, what's not. And what all of this says about us. Because when you look at all of these different experiences, there is a commonality in it that we all share. This is after death researcher, Dr. J, Kim Penberthy. So kind of getting started off with the basics. How common would you say are after death or near death experiences for people

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 2:02

they are probably more common than people might realize. And you have to remember, we're talking about two different things, when we're talking about a near death experience. This is a very well defined concept that we have, that is specifically referring to an experience someone has when they die or nearly die, and the subsequent sort of experiences that they have and recall. And in an after death communication, this is just exactly what it sounds like this is having been contacted spontaneously by someone who has died in some way. And so when someone reports and after death communication, it is literally someone that they knew or had knowledge of who passed away. And now they perceive they are being contacted by this person.

Nick VinZant 3:03

If we were to put I'm a big numbers person, right and approximating 25% of people, 50% of people 75 Like what would you say is the reported number? And then what do you think is like okay, but I think actually this many people have this happen?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 3:22

Obviously with near death experiences. It's it's smaller, because it's constricted to people who have near death experiences who almost die. And of those people. It's it's a fairly small percentage who actually remember and can describe what happened to them when they died for after death communications. So in that area, we see when we ask people sort of go out and do random research and find out, you know, just asking them if they've had these experiences, it's it's all over the place, it can be between about 25% of the population up to 60%. So you have to remember, not everyone is going to endorse this, they might experience it, but not share with other people. And when we've done research explicitly asking people, if they've had any kind of communication like this, they will say yes, and share their story, and then disclose that they've never told anybody, certainly not a doctor or a psychologist. And you can imagine why they think that someone's going to think they're crazy or that they're making it up or hallucinating. So my hunch to answer the last part of your question is that people experienced this at higher rates than we then we probably know so I think in reality, it's it's the majority of people. That's my honest feeling. If you really ask things like people saying Well, I saw this Cardinal, and Mom always said, you know, she loved Cardinals and I feel I believe this Cardinal was mom coming back to check on me. If you include things like that, and after death communications, which we do, you know, you can begin, you start thinking about your own life, the people, you know, your relatives, your friends, many of them endorse experiences like this and don't think it's weird.

Nick VinZant 5:26

That's, that would be, you know, the question that would jump out at me. And I'll use an example from from my personal life. My mother passed, I go on this hike to kind of clear my head, long hike, I get up to the central point of the hike cloudy all the time, I get up to the top and the sun comes out. And I guess you could read that, depending on how you believe two ways, right? Like this is a sign my mother is wherever? Or like, it's just a complete coincidence? Like, how do you kind of separate between those two?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 5:59

You know, that's a really good question. And it can be tough. And a lot of it boils down to the interpretations and beliefs of the individual. So there might be someone who believes it was just pure coincidence, and thinks nothing of it. Oh, you know, this, the clouds burned off. It's that time of day. And this makes sense to me. And that's what they'll go with. And others, you know, again, it depends on the timing, it depends on the belief. May I say, Yes, you know, that's, that's my mother telling me she's here with me. And in some ways, you know, again, it does depend on what people report how they interpret it. As a clinical psychologist, which, which is what I am in my background, I'm way more interested in how it impacts people. Because the reality is, it could be both, you know, and we've often lost the sight of of, okay, you know, maybe it's ambiguous, maybe it's both, maybe, yeah, this, the clouds burned off and the sun came up, because time passed. And who knows, maybe it's some sort of communication from the other side to reassure you. And, to me, the important thing, is the impact it has on you. Does that make you feel better? Does it help you cope with your grief? Does it make you feel like you're not alone? Those are important things. And if it helps to do that, then, you know, I'm less worried about whether you can you call it a real after death communication or not.

Nick VinZant 7:44

That makes sense, right? Because I'm not a religious person. I'm not a spiritual person. But it does make me happy, in a way, right. And so I guess, kind of, but is there a, is there a, I just use the phrase dark side to that kind of thing, right? Like, okay, it makes somebody happy. So what leave them alone? But can this go negative where people obsess? Or it, it weighs down on them rather than lifting them up?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 8:12

Well, I mean, I think you can ask that of any kind of belief system. You know, you think about any structured religion, can it go sideways? Oh, yeah. You've seen that we've seen that. Yeah, it can be used against people, it can be manipulated. So yes, that's definitely a possibility. And that's, you know, that would be an interesting line of research to look at. We do know, that in the after death communication research, when we've explored that there are people who feel like they've been contacted and had experiences, and they were sort of, you know, not real positive for them. So it might have been sort of alarming or negative in some way with you know, their effect is impacted in a negative way. However, what we do find in the literature in the research is that for the majority of people, and I'm talking about 75% or higher, maybe 85%, even, it is genuinely a genuine dren. generally seen as a positive thing. So they feel that it is demonstrating to them that there is something beyond that someone is still connected to them sort of that continuation of the connection. And for many of them, they decrease their fear of death and dying, which can be very beneficial for folks. We also found in a recent study that looked at about almost 1000 people, that people who have after death communications Generally become more spiritual, not religious, necessarily. So we looked at that difference between religiosity, which is practicing in a more formal religion, whether or not you go to church or synagogue or something, versus spirituality, which was a little more, a little more personalized, if you will.

Nick VinZant 10:21

So your research is focused more on the idea that people have this, not necessarily trying to prove that these things are really exist or not. It's more the idea of like, this is a commonality that people have.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 10:36

Yes, because in my in my role as a clinical psychologist, you know, I'm not an astrophysicist. I'm not a theoretical physicist, I'm not, I am not that smart. I tell you what, so I work with people. And a lot of my work is with people who have very serious illness, I work with oncology patients, people who are really facing their own death, and many of them have significant fear of death and dying, this is very problematic. I've seen many very bad deaths, which are just heartbreaking, it's hard enough to work with someone who is actively dying, and then to work with someone who's dying and denying it or fighting it. Because of fear. So I look to this work as a way to help improve the quality of life for people as as one of the objectives so really, how it's the sort of so what question these happens, so what, you know, we can go the route of looking at the, the, the science of it, the physics of it, or the, you know, the theology of it, or we can look at what's the impact right here, right now, whether or not we know much more about these. So in some ways, you know, it's interesting to look at all of that, as a clinician with my clinician hat on, I'm really looking at the impact. How does this impact people? How does it make their lives better? How does it make their death? A better death, so to speak? So that's sort of where I'm at with the after death communication research?

Nick VinZant 12:21

Is there like people who report after death experiences near death experience after death communications? Do they fit into a kind of a category? Right? Like, are they? Is it mostly men, mostly women, mostly religious people, mostly spiritual people? Like do they ultimately kind of trend in a certain direction?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 12:39

Well, here's what's interesting when when you look at after people who report after death communications, it is global, there are people around the world that report this. So it is, it's universal. And we see it most commonly, obviously, in people who have someone who passed away fairly recently. So it's most often seen in people who've had someone they love passed away within the year, it is more common in women. There again, we don't really know if that's a true statistic, or if it's just that women tend to endorse these things more than men. In general, they sort of self report things like this more psychological components, emotions, that sort of thing. So the answer is really it it happens universally. And across time, I mean, you can find reports of these in you know, as far back to the Bible, and earlier Greek writings and things like that. So it seems to be something that humans have experienced since the beginning of humanity, you specialize

Nick VinZant 13:55

in after death communication. So an after death communication is text message, I'm assuming is not not a text message from Uncle Bob. Right. But

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 14:06

you know, um, so typically, the we think about the various categories and obviously, you can be contacted in different ways visually, what we might think of is an apparition or, like we were talking about the sun coming out or a cardinal, you know, something that's significant signifies the loved one who's passed away. It can be a voice hearing words, and that includes, you know, some people will get phone calls that are like sort of staticky or happen and they attribute it again, this is all what they attribute it to. This is my mother calling some feel a presence so they just feel the sense that someone's in that person's in the room with them. They smell aromas, you might smell their perfume. Touch, you can also feel that you know, the hand on the face or a hand on your shoulder. So all of these ways can be ways that we experienced and after death communication.

Nick VinZant 15:13

I think the thing that jumps out to you, right for skeptical people, they could just be like, Okay, it's just a missed phone call, right? Like, is that difficult from a research perspective to kind of be like, well, you know, what, maybe you like, I got a phone call from my mother after I've been drinking all night like, Well, maybe it's because you're drinking all night, right? Like, is it difficult to kind of? Do you have to? How do you take into account those things where that maybe jump out, like, well, maybe this was happening?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 15:50

Well, it's interesting, you bring this up, because we don't, you know, we don't typically have people knocking down our doors to tell us about these experiences. So you do have to consider the source, obviously. And many people are sort of hesitant and a little reluctant and take a little bit of feeling safe and being invited to share these things. So I think that's one thing to keep in mind. There's a bit of a hurdle to get over for these folks. And of course, you're right. There can be people who tell us these things, and we may think it's a different kind of attribution, you know, like, that seems more like a missed phone call to me. Again, I'm going to go back to what does this individual believe in? Why might it be important? And how could it be helpful. You also have to distinguish, you know, between people with true thought disorders. So there are people who have thought disorders, like people with schizophrenia, who have delusions or psychotic thoughts. And what we found in the research is that the people who report after death communications are not psychotic, they do not have thought disorders. So there is a big difference there. And we do look at that research. So we're talking about people who don't, they may be grieving, they might have some anxiety or other sort of symptoms, like many of us do. When we've lost someone, however, they don't have a thought disorder. So I think it is important to clarify that.

Nick VinZant 17:34

When you look at the I believe, if I looked at there was like 12 kinds of 12 main categories of after death communications, is there one or two that are much more prevalent than other ones?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 17:46

Yeah, I would say, you know, you, you can look at the research sort of varies depending on the sample that you look at. I think it's very common for people to sense a presence of someone. And I think part of that maybe, because it's sort of general enough that, you know, it's, it's, it seems more accessible. Maybe

Nick VinZant 18:10

it's both specific enough and vague enough, that kind of can categorize as anything, or like, yeah, you just kind of feel like somebody's there with you.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 18:19

Yeah. And we all know what that feels like, which is also interesting. So

Nick VinZant 18:26

is, is there any research, though, that would suggest that you know, what, like, this is just a brain coping mechanism?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 18:33

Yeah. And there are people who who argue that? I don't know, again, that's not my specific area of expertise. And I'm not very aware of any research that has said yes, this is where you know, where that happens in the brain. And that's what's going on. It's certainly a hypothesis more. What's more common is a hypothesis that these are just sort of wishes. And, as you sort of alluded to, like, I want to, I want to believe this. So then I imbue it with this attribution. I say that, yes, this is what it is. And again, that's sort of challenging to, to sort of tease apart well, then what does that mean? Is this real, is it not it's real to the individual person. One of the things we can do and this may be, what you're sort of trying to get at is for some of these, we can look at, sometimes information is past the location of missing items or some information. And if that is reported to us through this after death communication from that individual who had it, we could go back and then look at at verifying this information. So there are some cases of that where you look at the information and determine if it's true or not. And some of them have been shown to be valid. So at that point, you know, again, that's a little bit more proof. You still have naysayers who say, well, it could be luck it could be. So you could still argue against that as proof. However, we do know that we've seen those instances, it takes some information is passed,

Nick VinZant 20:22

it does seem like something that like no matter what you could pick holes apart, there's how did you kind of get into it? What made you focus on this area?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 20:32

Well, I'm, I've always been very open to, you know, all kinds of ideas. As a young person, I was very curious. And I had wonderful parents that really encouraged that. And, and I had, you know, a strong sense of science. My father was a surgeon, my mother, a nurse, and she probably would have been, I don't know, some, some mystic leader if she knew about that. She was very, into nature. And, and in sort of this open spirituality and growing up, I would ask them both things, because their, their, their, their answers. were so different. It was so fun. You know, I asked my dad, what is the purpose of life as a little kid, because I just had these ideas. Oh, you know, I wanted to find out. He said, Well, that's easy. And was like, wow, okay, great. I didn't expect that. He said, it's to reproduce. Because as a scientist, yeah. Right. Okay. And I asked my mom the same question separately. And she said, overhead is so easy. Again, I'm like, Yes. She said, It's love. And so I then asked them, well, what happens when you die? And my dad proceeded to say, again, this is easy, here you go, you're ready, starts to tell me all about how the system is shut down, and the decomposition of the body or six year old, and I asked my mom the same, and she said, Oh, that's easy. You reunite with love. It's eternal love. And so I grew up with these thoughts. And, and that they, they are compatible, that they're totally compatible. And so I went into psychology because I thought people were fascinating, I loved how we can hold multiple thoughts in our head. And, you know, in the creativity, we have the genius we have the kindness we have, as well as the darker side of that, and very fascinated in what impacts that how that develops, how it can change what you can do for people to help them and became a clinical psychologist. And I think it was also informed by experiences I had as a young person, and even in my 20s that's when I had an experience that really impacted me and made me realize that I don't have all the answers and there are things going on that I don't understand in and there may be may be pretty positive things. So if you'll indulge me I'll share my mother and I love the beach. I did not grow up at the beach but we always went to the Outer Banks of North Carolina. And would were there one summer was just my mother and I and I was probably in my late teens or early 20s I don't know why was just the two of us. And she went in for a swim we had been sort of laying in the sand and I just laid I had to towel over my face just to protect it and dozed off, I'm pretty sure and woke up to sort of a you know, the noise of a crowd on the beach and so got up on my elbows to look and I saw a big crowd at the water's edge. And I saw that the lifeguard and this other man were bringing my mother in from the ocean. And she looked okay, she was standing up and everything. So I I just felt like okay, I don't need to rush over there. There's plenty of people she looks fine. But it was curious to me I noticed that the the man the one not the lifeguard, the other man looked older and he was like in regular clothes, not beach clothes, like a short sleeve button down shirt and, and khaki pants and I didn't recognize them. And so then she came up to the to the blanket and lay down she said she was fine, don't worry. And so after we both lay down, we're both there with our eyes closed. And I said Well, Mom I'm, who was that other guy? Who was he? And she said, Oh, that was my grandfather. And to this day, I still get chills. She had grown up in a sort of a challenging home environment, and was raised primarily by her grandfather, who just adored her and really cherished her. And I never met him. I didn't even know what he looked like. But then, when we returned home, I happened. We never really talked about it again. I mean, it was just not a big deal to her. It was like, Well, that happened. Okay. And I just followed her cues.

Nick VinZant 25:44

Like, yeah, like, I mean, that's, that's what you do you know, that age, right? Yeah.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 25:51

When I came home, I, you know, start digging around. And sure enough, I found a picture of him. It was him. And I was like, oh, that's the man I saw. I couldn't believe it. So, again, I didn't go telling everybody, I just really sort of kept it here. And it opened up this part of me that was thinking, you know, there's so much more than we know, how can I explain that, especially in my science mind, you know, I'm in, I'm getting ready to go to college and, you know, study science and biology. And so, I've always, that's, that's really driven me great, a great deal. And in you, you know, is that an after death communication? Sort of? Is it a ghost? I guess, you know, I, I didn't call it that. I still don't I really think of it as some you know, we know that in in times of crisis, things like this can happen, our sense of our consciousness can become altered. I mean, you can think of this as sort of an altered state of consciousness, that I'm now accessing some other piece of reality, you know, where this is now sort of apparent to me or evident to me, in a way. So I guess I sort of conceptualized it like that, and kept it with me and have have thought more and more about it as I've gone into this work. And maybe it impacted me in going into this direction more than I realize. I'm not sure.

Nick VinZant 27:36

That's kind of my personal opinion about, I would say I'll use the word stuff like this, right, is that it doesn't matter if it's real or not, it's real to you. And it does. I mean, obviously, it's an incredibly powerful experience. Does it change people's lives? Would you say? Like,

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 27:53

like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so people, definitely, you know, and this includes things like near death experiences, and out of body experiences, which often come with near death experiences, I mean, we can have out of body experiences. Anytime we can do that through meditation, or some people sort of spontaneously do some people do in a time of crisis. All of these sort of the hypothesis is number one, they they do impact you, they change your outlook, they often people endorse it, they are more spiritual with all that. That means to them, maybe they're, they feel more connected to people, they feel like there is something bigger than themselves. They feel like there's a purpose. Many people experience a very intense positive aspects, some sort of some knowledge that everything is okay, that it's all the way it should be sort of this profound equanimity. That is obviously very, very helpful in living your life, when you feel connected, supported, that you're supposed to be here, that your life is moving the way it should. Those all help people feel much more safe, more connected, more productive. And also, interestingly, simultaneously reduce the fear of death. So I can be engaged in my life fully and really embrace it and also accept that that there is this other phase of it called death. And it's, it doesn't have to be terrifying.

Nick VinZant 29:37

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I'm one of those people like I don't transition well, I just do it. Let's get right into one of the hard ones. What do you think we fear more death or not knowing what happens next, or if something happens next.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 29:58

So I Interestingly, for that question, it's a really good question, I'm going to add a third choice in there. What the research shows people fear most is the pain of dying. The process of dying. You know, think about it a prolonged, agonizing death. When we've done research, this is the thing that most people fear the most.

Nick VinZant 30:25

That is the exact opposite of what I want. My dream is to be eaten by a bear. I want to experience I want to experience the whole thing. Like every second of it.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 30:36

I have never heard anyone say that. That's, that's impressive. I don't I don't know what to make with that, though.

Nick VinZant 30:45

I want to know what it's like, right? It's the last thing you were like me, and that was pretty bad. But this is the way I've always thought about it. Like, if everybody's in the afterlife, and they're all sitting around the table, like I went in my sleep, I had this I had that. I got eaten by bear. That's the person like, that's a good story. Okay, there's my personal thing is that, um, do you think like, Okay, if there is an afterlife, would it then make our lives less valuable?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 31:13

Well, in, you know, I think afterlife is sort of an interesting term. different belief systems, think of it differently. So, you know, yes, sort of Christians, sort of the Abrahamic religions, some of them have this sort of sense of an afterlife, not all of them, but that, you know, we go to heaven, or we do something, there's another phase. And there's also a sense of, Well, what if this is a sort of a reconnection with something larger? So we sort of, you know, our individual selves, we're so used to thinking of that in our culture, but that we're really just part of this larger thing. And a little piece has come into this body for this period of time, and then reunites with this larger consciousness. There's a way of looking at that, as well. Um, I think it's an interesting question, you know, does it make this life less? What was the word valuable, valuable,

Nick VinZant 32:18

or pressing or whatever, right? This, I'll use the word be overly dramatic, like, cheapen this life, like, alright, well, I'm just doing this until I do this thing.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 32:29

And I think there is a risk for for that, you know, you do see people and again, certain very extreme religions where this life is all about just getting to the next. And those are often in in sort of these religions where, where we are sort of waiting for the next big thing, so to speak, you know, and there can be a risk of that. That's where you get people who are willing to, you know, commit suicide and do things to move on to that next level. So I think that's more of a risk, and then thinking about this as sort of a cheapened version. Because, again, it's interesting that many, if you think about it, many people that that have these experiences, actually value this life more. So the research would seem to contradict that. Even though it is a risk, you know, that we could sort of diminish this life and think of this as less important. Interestingly, the research would show people who have near death experiences who have after death communications or even out of body experiences, find that they value this life more that this is the you know, that they have more positive aspect. And part of it is that we suspect is that they understand some sort of shift happens in their consciousness that they understand they're not alone, they are connected, that, that they're already that way. You know,

Nick VinZant 33:57

yeah, I could see more, I could see where people who are more spiritual more nature re would feel that way more, right. Because the idea like if you're super into nature, you know, that the trees are connected to the grass to the animals. Right, and

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 34:15

a lot of collective societies. Also that, you know, that I think we're so used to thinking of being independent of our own, you know, in America, it's all about the individual and our rights and our and there's nothing wrong with that, except there are cultures we forget where it is all about the collective. And where people's minds just much more naturally go to that, that it's we not me. And that's a we as in my community, my society, my country, but this is another level of we, as in, you know, all of consciousness, all of creation.

Nick VinZant 34:55

That's the one thing that I want to happen when I die. I just want somebody to be like, Hey, you This is what happens. Like, this isn't here, you know, like, this is what happens. They should give you like a pamphlet. I feel like you should get a brochure explaining how this all works.

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 35:10

I agree. I just hope that you know, being eaten by a bear doesn't mean you become the bear that gets to heaven. I don't know, I wondered about that. If you're zoomed by another creature? Do you go as the bear? Or do you go as Nick? That

Nick VinZant 35:27

is a good question. Either way, though, I feel okay with it. Right? Like, I could be half bear half person would make you know, guy, you could have some that would be an interesting time. Yeah, that would be interesting to think about, like all the possibilities, like what could happen. The other thing that I would like to happen is like somebody to say like, you know, what, if you would have made this decision here, this is where you would have been, like a life review. If you would have mowed the lawn at one o'clock instead of 12 o'clock, you would have won the lottery that day? Like what? Those things? Yes. So cool. Um, do you personally believe in an afterlife?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 36:12

I mean, you know, I have had, I have had experiences that have allowed me to perceive that there is more out there than we currently think about in our modern day science. I would say that, you know, modern day science is pretty materialistic, where you're in your body, your brain is what produces all the stuff. And then when your brain dies, and your body dies, you're gone. I don't know if I buy that. I will say that. What what is the alternative? I'm still exploring, I think there are other possibilities. And that, to some extent, we can research them. I'm very interested in how we can research what these beliefs mean to people and how they impact the quality of their life, how they treat other people, how they treat the earth, that sort of thing. So for me, I guess it's less important to find the ultimate answer. And maybe more important to think about, well, what are the implications here and now, for our world? And for individuals?

Nick VinZant 37:31

Do you think, Okay, what do you think would impact the world more? If we found out absolutely with like, 100% proof that yes, there is or 100% proof that No, there isn't?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 37:44

I think, first of all, not everyone's going to believe everything. But if we go hypothetically, personally, I think it would be far more tragic to put out there, that that idea that this is all it is that it were just material. And when we die, that's it. We had no sort of consequence. We're not connected to anything larger, there was really no meaning in our life. I think that would be really hard. I think it would probably have a much more negative impact.

Nick VinZant 38:17

Yeah, I feel like we would start destroying the world. Really? Yeah. Don't accidentally prove it the other way. Yeah, that's one of those things like we like each probably keep that to yourself. If you accidentally discovered that, like, let's just go ahead and not put that out there was like, How do other How do you? You know, other researchers view it? Is it like, if you go to the convention, are they kind of like, oh, boy, here comes the near death people? Are they like, how do they view? How do they view that research?

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 38:54

Well, I have not been shunned. I will tell you that. So that's number one. There are a couple of answers to that. So yes, I do I do mainstream research as well, what we would call mainstream research. Coming up through my career, I did a lot of research in chronic depression and addiction. And then working, of course, with oncology patients, and in really started doing meditation research early on when it was fringe, and have seen that become more mainstream. And yes, sometimes she would have the people eye rolling or whatever. The the key really is to do very good science, you know, do good research. Make a quality so that people can look at the research and say yes, I see how you did this. This is standard operating procedure type of thing. And then it's it's more difficult for people to dispute. The other thing is, you know, as more people do this research and I'm invested in training people and spreading the word, then then becomes validated. So more people in different labs are doing it and finding out answers. And we also have developed conferences that are, you know, like many things, you develop specialty conferences. So when it was not always well received in maybe other conference centers, you could go to one that focused on after death studies or palliative care, things like that, where you're looking at people who run into this all the time, who literally see this in their work. And it's important to them. So I think that as we do more, and do quality research, it, it may, it may go the way of meditation where it becomes more and more mainstream, and people see the value. Not so much, you know, with with meditation, it's, it's, it was really developed from some of the ancient work, not to be so much like, here's a way of life, here's the spiritual path, you have to take, like Buddhism or something. It was It was developed in a way to say, how can we help people. And that may be part of why it became accepted, because people did quality research and saw the positive impact, initially, really working with chronic pain patients and, and people like that, where there was nothing else to help. So so we may see this developing the similar way, how can we help people with severe fear of death and dying? Having some exposure to thoughts about you know, after death, communication, or out of body experiences, can help reduce that we know from the research, so we may see it continue to grow.

Nick VinZant 41:53

It does seem like the kind of thing that I could see somebody's like, the most skeptical person in the world at the same time being like, this is the absolute blah, blah, blah, and then pulling you aside and being like, hey, this thing happened to me the other day, that does

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 42:05

happen. So people have disclosed their own experiences and how profoundly impacted them, they still usually report that they can't come public with it because of the fear of, you know, a stigma attached to it. Or they're early in their career, and they need to, you know, build up their career before they move into that area. So, yeah,

Nick VinZant 42:35

this would be the last question that we got, what after death communication or near death experience stands out to you the most besides your own? Obviously,

Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 42:45

there are so many there are so many. One really amazing one to me, was interesting, because it was the first one I heard where it was, it was a sort of a more harsh version, that we often think of loving and supportive, and, you know, very touching type of encounters. And this was a gentleman who was struggling with alcohol addiction. And we'd been working a long time, and he was not making much progress. And I was I had taught him meditation. And, you know, early on, when I was doing the meditation work, a lot of these experiences came from people learning to meditate and practicing their meditation. And then they would report some of these unusual experiences. He had an, an, what he considered he called it some sort of communication from someone that he felt connected to, but he he didn't really know who they were, but he felt a sense that they were connected. And it was this voice, this very harsh, female voice, who was telling him to get his shit together, and stop being you know, a baby and just get on board and he needed to quit drinking or he was going to die. So it was clearly not him. It was not his own thoughts. He said, No, it's I've had those thoughts. I know that stuff. This was someone else coming to me and I heard them playing his day. This is what they told me. Now he was not psychotic, he did not have a thought disorder. He was not actively drinking excessively, where he would have had some sort of delusion. He changed overnight. Because he said that that that communication knew him got him and that it resonated with him and I you know, I've not heard many stories like that, where someone comes back and scold you so harshly and says pretty harsh things to you. And you attribute it to someone that that is invested in you but you don't know them. So that was that was a little odd and bizarre. What I was most impressed With was the impact. I mean, it worked. And I can tell you, I swear, we had worked for so long to help him reduce his intake, and he just quit just right. And didn't pick it up again, the last communication I had with him, he was still not drinking. And, you know, so what was that? I may never know. It was important to him, it came through His act of work on, on his meditation on altering his consciousness on sort of expanding, and I suspect it was some sort of contact with some awareness. Maybe that was within him maybe from external. And it was just some point he had to get to, and maybe some, some point he had to get to in his work with me, in addition to some opening up with some, maybe some increased awareness or availability to accept this. And we see sort of similar things with psychedelic drugs, you know, not to get too off topic. But this idea of, of expanding this consciousness having some sort of experience where it's almost like everything shifts, and it can do so really quickly. Because it's like some light bulb going off, like, Ah, now I get it. And what that is for each person is a little bit different. It is, however, really profoundly focused on on connection on something larger than themselves some insight into, I'm not alone. And this all has meaning.

Turkey Calling Champion Dave Owens

Turkey calling is more than what it seems. It’s not just making sounds, it’s having a conversation with an animal. Speaking their language in order to convince a turkey that you are a turkey. Dave Owens is one of the best turkey callers in the world. We talk turkey calling, turkey hunting and being an advocate for conservation and wildlife. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Best Birds

Dave Owens: 01:44

Pointless: 42:49

Top 5: 01:07:07

Sponsor: Go to BetterHelp.com/POINTLESS for 10% off your first month of therapy

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

The Pinhoti Project

The Pinhoti Project YouTube

Dave Owens Instagram / Pinhoti Project Instagram

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/turkey-calling-champion-dave-owens/id1410461576?i=1000593688050

Interview with Dave Owens of the Pinhoti Project

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, The Art of turkey calling and the best birds.

Dave Owens 0:25

But that's your yield. That's the essentially like a people saying, Hi, you have basically fooled the ears of some of the most critical judges, and you're on the other side of that curtain a mere feet away often, and you're folding them to thinking that you're a turkey. I started this stuff when I was a college kid, you don't get much broker than college, I did that to Gulf Coast to country living out of the back of my truck sleeping on a cottage is funny as it sounds, Turkeys themselves have put me in places that I would have never seen had it not been for Turkey. So I've done things in my life that I never thought was obtainable. And it's all due to Turkeys,

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is one of the best Turkey callers in the world. And what's so interesting to me about turkey calling, it's not just making some sounds trying to get the attention to the turkey. It's having a conversation with the turkey. It's fascinating. This is turkey call champion, Dave Owens, what is the importance of having like a turkey call where Why do you need this? Where does this come from?

Dave Owens 1:50

Well, the calling aspect of turkey hunting is is kind of the defining factor. That's what kind of makes it different because we have a communication with our prey, we are able to carry on a conversation carry on a dialogue, what we're essentially trying to do is is enter their flock convince them that we are one of the flock and convince them to come investigate for one reason or another. So the culling aspect is is what makes it different is extremely important because without it turkey hunting would just blend with any other type of spot and stalk or the sit and wait kind of games that you get in with with often oftentimes with big game hunting. The calling is very important because it sets it apart and kind of what gives turkey hunting in itself a different feel. And I think that's what is the big fascination for most of us that are just obsessed with it. That's kind of what gives it that that drawl.

Nick VinZant 2:43

So like when you're doing the call, you're not just like, hey, Turkeys come here, like you're going back and forth with them.

Dave Owens 2:51

It's like any other conversation like the one that we're having here. Now. I mean, there's, they have a whole vocabulary, I mean, you can get excited, you can do subtle stuff. It's no different than saying, Hey, how you doing Nick? Hey, Nick, how's it going? Like you just learned over time, how to the dialects and the different, you know, the excitement levels, and what to say, I mean, they have a couple off the top, like, the most standard Turkey sound as a Yelp is what everything else is kind of developed around and kind of builds off of you have cutting, which is a very excited sound, which typically means aggression or excitement of some level, you have purring, which is can be a contented call, which is what they do when they're just, you know, just kind of subtle talk, because, you know, like you would do if you were, you know, in your office chatting with a co worker while you were you know, doing something else. But that same purring sound can also get aggressive because that's what they do when they're fighting. You know, it's almost like when you're fighting, you're grunting and growling and whatever. You know, it can be, you know, to that level. So as you can quickly probably gather the calling is that there's a big part in it. A lot of layers do

Nick VinZant 4:04

it. Could you give us an example of like those, what the calls sound like I got one

Dave Owens 4:09

right here. Oh, this is what I'd use a lot. There's a lot of different kinds of calls but this is what you call a mouth call or a Yelper diaphragm call. It's essentially an aluminum frame that's below this tape this tape is kind of like to explain it, it would be kind of like medical tape that you would you know wrap a bandage or something with and it's got an aluminum frame in it and this is latex that stretch between that aluminum frame and you blow air across it and you get vibrations off the ends. There's a lot of different cut configurations that you can use to get different sounds and probably the most universal call you can use the mouth calls to do little bit everything and but there's also pot and peg top calls or pots call I was gonna see if I had one of those laying around here. No don't um But basically, it's just different instruments just like musical instruments, you got horns and guitars and drums. I mean, it's the same thing with turkey calls, you got different things that can kind of make the same sounds but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The mouth collies, you can obviously tail it's very small, you put it in your mouth, you can still hold your firearm or whatever else you may have in your hands that you may not have available. If you're having to run like a box call, which is another instrument, you can use deer and turkey. Calling that I'll demonstrate it, but you caught me off guard here. So let me

Nick VinZant 5:32

Yeah, yeah, I didn't give him a chance to really do something. So like,

Dave Owens 5:37

like anything else, you got to loosen it up. It's like a guitar player that's gonna, you know, strum the strings and in a set tune his guitar and everything and nothing's different with turkey calls. And we're gonna try to rush this. But the yield just just explained or just kind of hinted to

I don't know how that comes across with audio when these earbuds in the machine here, but that's your yield. That's the essentially like a people saying hi, or hey, or where are you, you can take that to so many different levels, it can be a curiosity deal, it can be a demanding deal. And it's all going to be with the personality that you want to put behind that hand, the voice that you want to give the hand that you're trying to portray some more. It's gonna be hard to do cutting, it's going to pick the audio, but we can do clucking is more or less, it's a dress up word in the turkey world that kind of it can be contended. It's kind of one of those things that turkeys are going to be doing all the time. And so you do the clucking, kind of dresses it up, it's almost like a, I'll explain it as larvae, kind of like an adjective in human vocabulary, it's going to help add personality, it's going to help detail the nail and that you're trying to explain the point you're trying to get across other sounds that would just send it to like the purr, which can be very contented. It's the sound that turkeys are going to make when they're congregated, and feeding. There just being content.

And all these sales are just made by putting air across this litex. And these reads, and vibrations that you make with your throat with your tongue and causing those sounds to come across there. To mimic a turkey.

Nick VinZant 7:50

I can't believe how do people figure this out? Like to me looking at it from the outside of it. I assume that like all right, you make a couple of sounds and turkeys come down and take him out. I didn't realize that that was that in depth.

Dave Owens 8:06

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it isn't. There's turkey calling competitions. We do it competitively. I mean, you're obviously judged by me. And so you know, not judged by Turkey, per se. But it's all on the realism realism that we can put into turkey calling and how realistic we can be using these devices, who can sound the best. There is so many layers and so I mean, you can get so deep on trying to be perfect. Just like anything else. You just work and work and work and try to polish your sounds to be as realistic as possible. And when it you know that's going to obviously be good when you're competing against others. But once you take those talents into the woods when you're you're actually hunting turkeys, the more realistic you can sound, the more you're going to be able to obviously mimic what you're trying to try to replicate in the wild and full more turkeys.

Nick VinZant 9:05

But will you like blow a hunt because you messed up a sound right? Like I had them right where I wanted. And then I made the clock when I should have made the cut and the turkeys were gone.

Dave Owens 9:19

No, it's not a hard and fast situation like that. Just like we have in human vocabulary. I mean, if you and I are talking and I say a word, it's out of place, or my voice cracks, or I'm happy to get a drink of water because I get cotton mouth. Same thing happens with turkeys. So it's I won't say it's impossible. But I will say it's quite difficult if you've got a turkeys attention and you're having a conversation to really just say something out of place. Now, you know, if you flip a read, which is something that we refer to in the turkey calling world like you have these latex reads that I just talked about, and they do have a tendency of one of the tongues flipping backwards. sticking onto itself, like so. That just comes out as squeaks. I mean, as you can, it's like popping a guitar string. You obviously can't strum the guitar when the guitar strings are going the same way. So if something like that happens, yeah, sure, you could run one off because it's going to sound like you got something caught in the trap. You know, it's kind of squirrel and squirrel. And, and, yeah, you could run them off that way. But fortunately, just like with people, turkeys have different voices, they have different enunciations. So there's a lot of flexibility when it comes to creating Turkey sales.

Nick VinZant 10:34

But why so then what are you doing on the other end of it in the sense that like, eventually, even if you making all these great sounds right, like, doesn't the turkey expect to see another turkey?

Dave Owens 10:43

Absolutely. And you're hunting turkeys which are hunted by everything, 365 days a year, you're hunting the most paranoid critters out there. I mean, they are hunted from the air, they're hunted from the ground, they're hunted all the time. So what you're trying to do is convince them to trust their second most important, since they live and die by their eyes. That is how they stay safe is their eyesight is incredible. So what you're trying to do is get them to trust their ears enough to second guess their eyesight. That's the whole drawl to turkey hunting, you are really trying to put a turkey in a position to where he is so convinced that you have convinced him by his ears through auditory effects that he almost second guess is his asset, you know, he's going to put his main line of defense that he has lived with, and it has trusted his whole life. And he's going to put that on the shelf because you've convinced him to, to trust his ears. So that's, that's the big draw. That's the big poll, to me, is kind of taking something that has absolutely, and you're hunting turkeys which are hunted by everything, 365 days a year as you're hunting the most paranoid critters out there. I mean, they are hunted from the air, they're hunted from the ground, they're hunted all the time. So live in the wild, you know, and been hunted by everything and in convincing it to, to that you're one of them. So

Nick VinZant 12:22

So now are you female Turkey, trying to lure a male, male Turkey trying to lure a female like, or how does that usually?

Dave Owens 12:32

Typically, I mean, just to be the stereotypical thing is yes, you're a hand you're a female Turkey, you're trying to replicate like, you know, a turkey wanting company is breeding season. That's why we are most often hunting deer in the spring. And is Yeah, exactly. You're just trying to lower the gobbler, which is the male turkey into into shotgun Ranger archery range by mimicking, you know, his his desire to breed So,

Nick VinZant 12:58

so the range that you would be looking at to try to get them close? I obviously it depends on the the firearm right, but like, what's the ideal? I want to get in within 500 yards? I want to get five feet?

Dave Owens 13:11

Yeah, I mean, the standard answer here is going to be typically most people are hunting them with shotguns, which is you know, more of a shorter range weapon. Because turkeys you typically shoot him in the head and neck area, because that's what's most lethal. It's most ethical. And, and that's something that's very seldom steel, if you've watched a turkey, their pay is always moving because they rely on their ass out there constantly tilting their head to get a better view, they can see like 320 degrees around them. So unless you're directly behind them, they can still see you moving. So we're shooting with shotguns at close range. Typically, that's going to be 40, orbs and en, which is kind of that standard. Advancements in shot and things of that nature may extend that range a little bit. But you will find that in the turkey hunting crowd, there's a lot of ethics that are self imposed. I mean, there's a lot of us out there in the community, that although we may have the ability to take a turkey at extreme ranges or something, maybe, quote unquote, legal, you might get in trouble for you're not breaking any laws. But we kind of just put things into place because we want to play this game that we are essentially play and we want to want to self impose some restrictions so that we can get the most enjoyment out of the out of the resources possible. You know,

Nick VinZant 14:31

that's one thing I think we should jump into fairly quickly, right, like some people. I grew up in Kansas and my general experience has been there's very few people who are as good as stewards of the land as hunters are. Do you ever get a lot of pushback? Is there pushback in the hunting community that like why are you doing this? That kind of thing?

Dave Owens 14:53

I'm not in the hunting community. I mean, we we know we're brothers in arms. I think we're all on the same team and we understand And that we have to be because we are a minority in the human population. I mean, we're hunters, like a fragment of the population. But while I will say the wildlife populations that we're all able to enjoy, whether you're a hunter or not, is because of hunters, hood hunters and shooters, were the ones that fit the veal. And we're happy to do so we have self imposed taxes that we put into place. You know, we enjoy the populations. And we're the first ones like right now, for instance, a lot of your turkey populations have seen reintroductions, and starting in about 2000, a lot of the areas that turkeys were reintroduced, they basically fulfilled all the carrying capacity of the land. So basically, their populations were just climbing exponentially there for a while. And now they're we're starting to see a plateau, maybe even dip a little bit before they plateau, which is pretty standard, when you introduce a spacey in a lot of turkey hunters, louder than anybody else is on the horn saying, hey, you know, our turkey populations aren't where they were 10 years ago, it's time to put some additional regulation into place, it's time to kind of dial back to make sure that we have this resource for many generations, hunters are the people that are doing that hundreds of people who are excited about making sure that these these animals are here for for years to come. So

Nick VinZant 16:24

when you go to the competition aspect of it, what makes one call better than another, like how competitive is that, that arena?

Dave Owens 16:35

It's very competitive, you have different divisions, because like the calls that I was explaining earlier, you have the mouth calls like this. And that's an air operated call, it's, you know, obviously operated with air, you have a certain number of calls that are operated through friction, and that's the pot and pig calls that have like a slight surface or glass surface. And you have a wooden peg that you scrape against that surface. And it makes a sound that replicates a turkey and that's a friction call. So you have a division devoted strictly to friction, you have an open division, which is open to anything. But essentially, regardless of what kind of instrument you're using, the whole idea is to be as realistic as possible. You're judged by a panel of judges who are behind the curtain or under the stage. So they don't know who's calling in most situations, and their judging strictly off what they're listening to and what what is most closely resembles the sounds of a hand turkey.

Nick VinZant 17:36

So is it a hard thing to do? Or is that a hard thing to do? Well,

Dave Owens 17:40

making the sounds of a turkey are not a very difficult thing to do to make the sounds of a turkey that are extremely realistic can be very difficult. I mean, it's like with anything else, you know, we can you know, with with a little bit of practice, you can teach an eight year old to toss the ball up in the air and hit it with a bat to go to the big leagues and get into the Hall of Fame. It takes a considerable amount of practice and effort to become that skilled at that. So same way with turkey calling I mean as far as picking up a call and and making a sound that can sound somewhat like a turkey and probably fool a turkey. not difficult at all to get on the big stage and full human ears and you know, consistently full turkeys. It's considerably more difficult.

Nick VinZant 18:27

So, okay, correct me if I'm wrong here. You got second place in the most recent national competition?

Dave Owens 18:35

Yeah. There's a lot of turkey calling competitions across the country. We're trying to get the popularity of that built back up. It's not quite what it was in the early 90s When the turkey populations were peaking. As matter of fact, it was popular. Everybody was doing it turkey calling competitions got popular. And they're coming back. We're seeing a lot more involvement than we used to. But yes, the big one, I guess you would call it the Super Bowl of turkey calling is the grand nationals. It's held at the National Wild Turkey Federation, their national convention in Nashville, Tennessee. And they have the big grand national turkey calling competition. And yes, last year placed second and the year prior play second. And then the year prior. I mean, yeah, it's it's been. It's been a fun little run. But yeah, that's the most recent finishes.

Nick VinZant 19:23

So putting kind of all humbleness aside, I guess, for you like, why did you play second? In the sense that like, what are you doing that makes you better than other people? But what did the person who won do that like you didn't? It's

Dave Owens 19:41

all when you get to that stage. You have basically they cut down all of the colors in the country, down to 13. There's 13 callers to go across the finals stage. Just making that stage is a huge accomplishment. Basically, you're one of the best. You have been Basically fooled the ears of some of the most critical judges, some judges that are behind the curtain that know turkeys that have 2030 4050 years of turkey hunting experience. So they know what a turkey sounds like, and you're on the other side of that curtain a mere feet away often, and you're folding them to thinking that you're a turkey. So basically, they scale, they judge you on a scale from one to 20. And if they think if they basically think that there was a turkey on the other side of that curtain, they're gonna give you a 20 if they think you were almost a turkey, but there was a few things in there that, you know, they'll give you 1819, you know, so basically, they're all judged. And there's anywhere from five to seven judges, and they'll total the total of the points and they claim the winner. But as far as what I'm doing, it's, it's, it's once you get to that stage, everybody up there is so good and so polished. It's splitting hairs, you know what I mean? It's, it's really competitive, you always try to do something that's a little bit unique, that may hurt the ears of the judges, that maybe the guy next to you is not. And of course, you're just trying to have a clean run, you're not you're trying not to slip up and make one of those unrealistic Saionji try not to flip wreaths on your car, you try not let us peg slip on your surface, you're trying to be as much a wild turkey as you possibly can.

Nick VinZant 21:26

So is it more for kind of personal competition reasons or necessarily or is this like something like you can make some money doing this?

Dave Owens 21:35

Who it's hard to make money in this. I mean, it's definitely out of passion, it's definitely out of an obsession with turkey hunting, turkey hunting is what got me to wanting to do competition calling, because it's gonna make you a better turkey hunter, it makes you practice on your call more and makes you more proficient on your call. And all of that is going to translate into being able to communicate with turkeys better,

Nick VinZant 21:57

how often a day, or how many hours a day, or a week or whatever, like, how much will you practice,

Dave Owens 22:04

that's all going to be dependent on the collar themselves. A lot of these guys practice a number of hours a day, a lot of folks have jobs that they can practice when they're on the clock, so to speak, and I got a good friend who operates heavy machinery and he's up there. And he said he keeps a mouth collar on his mouth all the time. He's up there by itself. So he's just, you know, practicing and getting new sounds and working. For me personally, I practice quite a bit when I was trying to kind of find my sound and kind of figure out what I wanted to do. But once I have I have found a lot of practice doesn't exactly do favors for me because I pick up bad habits like anything else. So I don't practice that much. Now. I don't practice you know, it's more just making sure I have the right equipment making sure I have the right call. And because we make a ton of calls because no two calls are the same. You got to find just that rat, you know, everybody has their favorite you know everybody has their favorite guitar if you're if you're a musician and just Turkey callers we have our favorite calls and typically everybody builds their own calls. And so now the practice for me now is usually breaking in new calls and trying to find that that rap call to have on game day.

Nick VinZant 23:18

So I googled some stuff right and you were described as the best turkey hunter alive

Dave Owens 23:27

now it's it's it's pretty subjective considering that you don't keep score at this game, you know. So yeah, that's you know, that I've never and I don't think anybody that turkey hunts and considers themselves a big turkey hunter or whatever. Like be gunning for that accolade. I don't think anybody will really want that title because the guys who really love this stuff I would much rather be known as like a an ambassador for the sport somebody that wanted to see turkey hunting popular wanted to say turkey hunting done in the right way and wanted to be a champion for the resource wanted to see that tomorrow there's more turkey hunters than there was I mean turkey hunters and turkeys is there was yesterday so that's what I'm I hoped that when when I'm getting going and when the Pinhoti projects you know, seen its final sunset I hope that people can look back on and go the guy look turkeys and he wanted more turkeys and he wanted everybody to enjoy what he enjoyed because as funny as it sounds, Turkeys themselves have put me in places that I would have never seen had it not been for Turkey so I've done things in my life that I never thought was obtainable. And it's all due to turkeys and I just had the fear I'll just always hear these you always hear when I retire or one day I'm going to do that when I retire. I'm going to do this and I just had a fear much younger hearing horror stories that man you don't ever know if that day is going to come. So I've always looked at you know, man if I can if I can make it If it was possible, then I was gonna try to obtain it. And that's kind of the way I learned early on with this turkey hunting thing. That's what I love to do is what I wanted to be good at. And I'll work and just add a passion. It's not like when when you say you work, it's not like a professional sport where you got to go run wind sprints is not, you know, it's not it's almost involuntary, your passion is so strong that you're gonna get out there and do it either way, you're gonna get out there and do it because you love it. And that's kind of what I've fallen into is just strictly a passion that's caused me to love this stuff as much as I do. And it's, like I said, has provided me with so much that I just thought Man, if there's somebody that never is exposed to this, this could potentially have such a profound effect on them as it just as it did me. But if they're never exposed to it, how would they ever know? So that's why I thought it was a really good idea to start making it available for folks you know, putting out content that they could find and see how it had affected me and how more fulfilled I am as a person in life just because of wild turkeys and wild things wild places and getting to go I've traveled to all 49 states that have a huntable turkey population I find it turkeys in all 49 states there's no way I would have ever went to Rhode Island or Delaware or you know Nevada I mean these places are just I mean managed to get from southeast I'm happy being in the southeast you know I'm a majority of Florida Alabama that's that's kind of where I like to do my thing but this attraction to want to experience wild turkeys and and all over the country has put me in these places and I've seen things and had experiences that man I'm just every time I do I think there's somebody out there that they won't ever see this and you know, exposing them to wild turkeys. Maybe they will so that's that's my that's my place.

Nick VinZant 26:57

What's the Hawaii is the one state that doesn't I'm assuming it's gotta be Hawaii, right?

Dave Owens 27:01

No, it's Alaska. Hawaii actually has a lot of turkeys. Really? Absolutely. Yep.

Nick VinZant 27:07

How the hell they get to a Hawaii not to Alaska.

Dave Owens 27:11

They don't? Well, Alaska. See turkeys function on a photo period like length of day. That's how they know when it's time to breed. That's how they know when it's not you know, this the length of day and if you're aware of Alaska has this point of time, whether it's daylight all time and dark. So turkeys can't deal with that they function off the photoperiods Hawaii's actually got a ton of Turkeys because they don't have any natural predators like we do in the continental US. You know, the turkeys have a lot of predators here. Like I mentioned earlier, they're hunted by everything. Everything needs to Turkey. But in Hawaii, there's very few I think they have like a weasel or something that's a predator. And and that's about the only thing so their turkeys out there are plentiful.

Nick VinZant 27:52

Man. Those are great. That was a great sentiment that you put before I asked that dumb question about. But that's all I could think of is like, man, which state is it? I had to be Hawaii? But like, do you when you go out there? Do you have an overall strategy? Or is it just kind of whatever nature gives you?

Dave Owens 28:11

Yeah, I mean, hunting turkeys whether you're doing it from South Florida to you know, Washington, I mean, from sea to shining sea gets pretty similar. You're doing the whole dialogue. It's the whole conversation thing and you're trying to replicate Oh, he in Turkey most of the time and trying to look to fool the turkey into thinking that he's coming up there to breed. So all of that is pretty, pretty much the same. It's just the topography, the terrain changes. You know, and that's what makes it attractive to battle the turkeys across the country because you never know what's around the next corner when you're on unfamiliar ground and I think that's the that's the drawl to a lot of us that travel to turkey hunt like I do is wanting to experience something familiar in an unfamiliar place. And turkeys gives you the ability to do this somewhat on a budget. You know, if you're an elk Hunter, or even a deer hunter. The cost of entry is pretty steep. A lot of times I mean, your tag cost is five $800 over $1,000 Sometimes the access to property that may have these animals is pretty limited sometimes turkeys are pretty affordable. I've kind of prided myself and kind of built a reputation on doing everything on a budget just trying to be in a you know, I started this stuff when I was a college kid you don't get much broker than college kids. You know what I mean? eat ramen noodles and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I did that took off across the country living out of the back of my truck sleeping on a cot and just living out of a cooler, you know we would take off and the only thing we would have in the whole trip was the cost of tags you can typically get Turkey tags for around 200 bucks or less. And you can go out there and hunt and you live out of the back of your truck eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and have the experiences of a life and you know you have less than $1,000 in this thing and this hard to find any, it's hard to find that much fine for that path little bit of money.

Nick VinZant 30:08

Now, where does turkey hunting rank Mike okay, this in terms of like, alright, this is the most popular, this is second like where's turkey hunting kind of in the, in the pecking order, like

Dave Owens 30:19

it's all gonna depend on your region. You know turret county is not nearly as popular out on the west side, you know, on the west side is big game. It's elk, antelope, mule deer, whitetail mountain line, you know, that kind of stuffs really big out west. And then across the country, white tailed deer going to be keen, I mean, white tailed deer, the amount of people that hunt whitetail deer, the, the amount of money it generates for the states is huge. In the southeast, it's probably still gonna be white tailed deer. But in the southeast, turkeys are a very close second, it's almost a religion down here, turkey hunting is pretty sacred down here. I mean, we have a, you'll come down here and you'll find a lot of literature and you don't find that as much on white tails, you know, even though they're as popular, they generate more or less revenue than turkey hunting down here, but you get to look at the just just the, the amount of people that put more effort into the game, you know, the the hunting of the turkey and you'll find people trying to put words to the to the interaction and put words to the connection they feel with their with the, you know, in the challenge that they experienced with their, with the game that they're pursuing. And you see a lot of literature around turkeys, because I believe people are constantly trying to put a description that that does it justice, and I'm not sure anybody ever has, that you look at people that are, you know, Colonel Tom Kelly, you know, Jean nun, or you got some authors out there that have done a really good job of trying and putting pen to paper to kind of document the feelings and the emotions that this stuff evokes. And you don't find that with anything else. So the SE I guess is your short answer is there's turkeys are is close to Second of all in the pecking orders is anywhere in the country.

Nick VinZant 32:18

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. Hardest call to do easiest call to do.

Dave Owens 32:29

That's all going to be do it's going to be up to the individual. But the most difficult call for most people is glycolic o'clock. And per it takes a fluttering of the tongue or a gargling of the throat when a mouth call that causes that little bubbly sound. And that's typically harder for people to accomplish. The easiest call is the easiest and the hardest. And I'll explain what I mean by that. A Yelp is probably the one that people start off with. Typically, they'll pick up a boss call or a pot call and they can mimic that call well enough easier. But in my opinion, when it comes to judging a turkey sound, it's harder to fool my ears with a turkey yield. Like very few people in the country can Yelp on a call and me hear it and go that's that's a turkey and it not be a turkey. So it's the easiest to kind of come you know to make. But it's the most difficult in my opinion to actually be realistic.

Nick VinZant 33:23

Has anyone ever entered an actual turkey into a turkey haul turkey calling competition? And where do you think the actual Turkey would place?

Dave Owens 33:33

If the turkey didn't win? You've got a problem with judges. Because no matter how hard we try, and how much we practice and all the little knickknacks that we gather to try to replicate the sounds. We still have so far to go. I mean, if we still have so far to go, I mean, you can listen to the most accomplished Polish callers in the country. And you can put them beside a wild turkey and man we all we don't even it's not even close. So there's a lot of room for improvement there. So yes, what a wild turkey when he better or she better. But no, I don't know if anybody's ever done that. Is this gonna be hard to get your hands on one and make them talk when you want them spoke? You know, speak when they're spoken to?

Nick VinZant 34:19

Yeah, that's true. I'm always reminded of the things that Groucho Marx that famous comedian took third and a Groucho Marx and lookalike competition. It's always made me laugh. Um, all right, man. feet to the fire. You got to pick a state best place for hunting. Best place for turkey hunting

Dave Owens 34:37

best place for turkey hunting it's gotta it's gotta be hard to beat Georgia and Alabama because opportunity or bag limits are available here I think you can still kill for in an Alabama even though it's went through a reduction used to be out to kill three in Georgia they went to a reduction you can only kill two now because like I mentioned earlier hunters are the first He wants to start pulling back on the reins when it's necessary. But we have long seasons, seasons or, you know, 40 days, 45 days. So the opportunity to get out there for that amount of time, I don't think you can find that anywhere else in the country.

Nick VinZant 35:13

Can you do other calls? Right? Like, are you good? Could you just go into Duck Calling and knock it out like a pro?

Dave Owens 35:19

Yeah, well, maybe not like a pro. But the app spin when I was, even when I was young, I was just one of those kids that could hear a sound and replicate it and get pretty doggone close with just a little bit of practice. So Duck Calling goose calling elk. Even though I've only hunted elk a handful of times, it's a lot of it goes hand in hand with the mouth reads the diaphragms that you that you use in turkey calling. But yeah, I've always been one of those guys, and they can just hear something and replicate it pretty quickly.

Nick VinZant 35:49

Is there a rivalry, rivalry between Turkey and duck collars?

Dave Owens 35:55

Now know, I don't think so it's such a different, such a different avenue, I guess. I mean, because with Duck Calling competitions, they're there to typically showcase the ability to be able to call as much as they are the ability of the caller, where turkey hunting, in turkey calling it's all about, you know, being the turkey, they're there to replicate the sounds of the intended animal. So they're not thinking about the call, they're not there to showcase the call, they don't care what kind of call it is. So that's kind of two totally different. Totally different deals their

Nick VinZant 36:34

best Turkey haul, best turkey call to start out with best like second turkey call, like

Dave Owens 36:41

the easiest. That typically your your when you start out, this is going to be with like something like a push pin, or a box call, which is a friction top call, typically made out of wood, it's very easy to get a sound out of. And with just a little bit of practice and even some instructions off the off the paper that comes with the call, you can usually get something that's going to somewhat replicate a turkey quickly encouraged and most people do, they'll pick up a mouth diaphragm pretty quickly, just because of the necessity. Like I say a turkeys live and die with their eyes. So if you can imagine trying to get a turkey into 40 yards or less running something that you have to actually move to make the sounds can be a conflict, you can't sit there and call to the turkey with him looking at you and making the movements because he's going to know that it's not a real Turkey and he's going to flee. So that's why you use the mouth diaphragms, you can you know you have your you have a face mask on. So you have it pulled up to here. So you can still call with a mouth diaphragm in your mouth and the turkey can't see it. So typically, that's the second call everybody's going to pick up just due to the necessity of being able to continue to coax the turkey into that close range and him not be able to see any movement.

Nick VinZant 37:56

So tell me about the Pinhoti project. When did you start that what's kind of the mission

Dave Owens 38:01

Pinhoti project started in 2018. It was just to produce turkey hunting content it was to give turkey hunters like myself something that to watch that they could relate to. We all get kind of amped about this time of year when Turkey seasons are knocking on the door, everybody wants to kind of live through somebody else live vicariously relive haunts and that kind of thing. And with the popularity of like digital media and YouTube and these different streaming platforms, we saw the opportunity to hop in there and provide something that we felt like was was tasteful, and kind of you know, illustrated how we Turkey hunted and just the cool factor of turkey hunting making it popular again, making people care about Turkeys just saw the opportunity to make all of that something so that's kind of why we hopped in and here we are.

Nick VinZant 38:56

White meat or dark meat.

Dave Owens 38:59

Oh man, it's it's hard to choose you can't beat turkey breasts. Everybody likes turkey breast rot. But if you know how to prepare turkey legs and thighs, they are extremely good. We make turkey tacos and Turkey pot pie we make we actually had Turkey enchiladas not before last make a lot of stuff with the turkey legs and the dark meat. So it's it's hard to be you shouldn't throw any other way. I promise you.

Nick VinZant 39:28

That's pretty much all the questions I got manage anything else you think we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dave Owens 39:35

Oh, next for me. It sits the busy season for me. It's essentially turkey season. We're planning where we're going this next spring. I have turkey content I still have we typically I typically turkey hunt in the neighborhood of 90 to 95 days a year. And everything's videoed if I'm awake unfortunately, when I signed up for the Pinhoti project, I might promise that I was going to video and document every single thing and I'm it's kind of What I'm doing now is we produce and I try to get that as much of that content out there real time. Typically, that's only about 1517 episodes during the spring season. Because as you can imagine trying to document everything, hunt, if it's daylight we're hunting, if we're legally allowed to and then also having time to edit which is an extremely strenuous and and time consuming process. You can only do so much of that when you're doing it all at the same time. So we have a ton of footage that after the season is over that we're just sitting at home and all offseason I am cleaning that footage up coming out with episode so the year before the season, like I mentioned, when everybody's ramping up and getting excited wanting to live through live some hunts from last year, I have a lot of that content available. And that's what we're doing now. I had about two months of content that I had to clean up and I've been nose to the grindstone now for gosh, next to two months to get this stuff cleaned up. So we're we're down to about three weeks left footage, and so I had to power it down to get on this call with you. So it's it's busy.

Bellydancer Valerick Molinary

Bellydancing is more than just a dance. It’s an art form that is both sacred and scandalous. Award-winning Bellydancer Valerick Molinary has performed all over the world. We talk Bellydancing basics, the stigma of seduction and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Georges.

Valerick Molinary: 01:43

Pointless: 35:37

Top 5: 54:57

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Contact the Show)

http://www.valerickmolinary.com (Valerick’s Website)

https://www.instagram.com/valerick23 (Valerick’s Instagram)

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063834995015 (Valerick’s Facebook)

http://www.bellydancestories.com (Belly Dance Stories Website)

https://www.instagram.com/bellydance_stories (Bellydance Stories Instagram)

Interview with Bellydancer Valerick Molinary

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, belly dancing, and George's

Valerick Molinary 0:20

there's a lot of stigma about the dance. There's this idea that it's a seduction, dance the relationship between culture and religion. And then dancing can get a little messy. Sometimes in Arabic music, there's something called Terra, which is like the dance produce the music produce this type of like ecstasy is experience. And that's part of the magic of it, and that slowly, graceful movements, even though they look very easy, they're not.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps out the show. If you're a new listener, welcome. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of the support. So our first guest is an award winning belly dancer who has performed all over the world. What's really interesting, I think about this, though, is not just the history of the dance or how you do it, but the culture that surrounds it, because it is both sought after and stigmatized at the same time. This is belly dancer, Valerie Molinari. So his belly dancing, is it fundamentally different than other kinds of dancing?

Valerick Molinary 1:47

There's a lot of things that makes it very particular and unique, starting by the history of the name and the label of bellydancing. Okay, so the name, the title, the word bellydancing, is a colonial term that doesn't necessarily translate or refers to a specific geographic region where this dance coming from comes from. So when you say belly dance people, specially in the western, social imaginary and right in the West here, in America, we kind of like don't have a clearer perspective of where's this dancing coming from? Okay, compare to ballet, and other Western disciplines that were more popular. In ballet, there's more use of the extensions of the body, right arms legs. The French call it belly dancing, because they started invading the North of Africa, they started seeing awasi and Gypsies dancers. And they noticed that there was a lot of focus in the middle part of the body, which in ballet, that's totally forbidden, right? Because in ballet, you dance with a very rigid torso. So that's how they call it belly dancing, because for them for the colonizers, they could see this constant movie of the belly. And that's something that we have that is very particular and unique, compared to other styles of dancing is a focus on the movement in the middle part of the body, between the hips, and the belly area,

Nick VinZant 3:28

the name belly dancing, then does that irritate people who had

Valerick Molinary 3:33

question? For some people, especially for Middle Eastern people can be a term that they don't necessarily like it because it really doesn't bring any type of visibility to them or their culture, or in this case, their dance. And for other people, they're just like, okay, you know, this is part of like, the history it is what it is, but honestly, for marketing purposes is very difficult. Because if I use FRAC Sharky, which would be like a correct Arabic term, people have no idea what I'm referring to.

Nick VinZant 4:12

It's become so pervasive that you can't get around it.

Valerick Molinary 4:15

Exactly. So now what I do is I use it. And once people come to my class, or people asked me, let's say in a platform like a podcast like this about the term, then I use it as a more gray moment to kind of like educate people about it.

Nick VinZant 4:30

You mentioned it very briefly, but what's the traditional name of it? Where does it originate from?

Valerick Molinary 4:35

Mostly, let's say in the Arab world, the term will be racks which mean that's our Charkie which means that's from the east. Okay? And when we talk about dance from the east, we're talking more about the style of dance that it's a little bit more theatrical. Then we have the term racks Baladi, that racks means dance, that LSD means from the people or belonging to a certain area, that it's what we term, the term that we use to describe more casual and social dancing. Meaning that if I go to an Arabic party, and they have Arabic music playing, and I see people gathering and dancing for each other, they're just doing Rex vanity, meaning using this beautiful hip work in a very social context. When I do production, Sharky means when I do it all by myself in a more theatrical way with a two piece costume and the way Hollywood has kind of like frame it and make it more popular for us.

Nick VinZant 5:41

When I think about other styles of dance that I know, right, that all seem to be more focused on the whole body or the extremities, big kind of movements. Why is his belly dancing different than that?

Valerick Molinary 5:55

Well, there's more focus in the middle part of the body. And if you really pay attention to many folklore, dancers dances in a global scale, even me that I come from the Caribbean, you know that there's a lot of folklore dances that include hip work, Polynesian dance, salsa, Afro Brazilian, you name it, there's a lot of folklore dances, that includes really nice torso and, and hip work. But they haven't become I want to say so commercialise. As the way we see belly. And so we tend to identify only belly there's with hip work, but let's say pull dimension. There's, it's the use a lot of in fact, very similar hip work.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Is it harder than other kinds of dancing? In

Valerick Molinary 6:55

a way? Yes. It's a very different idea of moving also, for me that I come from Puerto Rico, like social dance, it's a partner's dance. And I feel these dance even though in a casual context, yes, you can be dancing, but it's all about you. It's a solo type of performance. It's more difficult in that sense, because you're generating everything. You're generating the musicality, when you're dancing with a partner. There's this constant communication of information, right, the partner is telling you to turn, whatever. So there's this constant information happening from body to body. For me, when I do belly dance all by myself, it's all about me. It's my body guiding that energy. And connecting to the audience. Yes, there's, there's gonna be communication between the audience and the dancer. But it's totally different. When you are a solo dancer, a soloist that you're dancing completely by

Nick VinZant 8:02

yourself, it seems very flowy

Valerick Molinary 8:05

it is. And that's part of the magic of it. And that slowly, graceful movements, even though they look very easy. They're not requires a lot of control, because you want the movement to be flowing. But you don't want it to look like it's lacking energy. So we use your muscles in a certain way to create those undulations and those movements, circular, very flowy. But at the same time that you see it and you're like, kind of like immediately drawn or kind of like hypnotized.

Nick VinZant 8:42

So you know, the thing that I always see in like the media necessarily, right, like TVs and movies, it's one belly dancer up on a stage. Is that kind of like the traditional way that it's done?

Valerick Molinary 8:53

Yes, since the 1920s. There was this lady in Cairo. She opened a casino obrera because she wanted it to present to Western audience that were in Cairo right now at the moment. Our show that it was similar to the Moulin Rouge, so she what she did was like, Okay, I'm gonna take certain indigenous dancing or dances, right? But I'm gonna have to refine them. I'm gonna have to sanitize them, to bring them to the stage so they can actually be related to Western audience. And also, our local native audience can also enjoy it. So she started integrating the veil, she started integrating the two piece costume, which she literally took it from the Moulin Rouge in Paris. So that idea of the two piece costume is something that we got from burlesque. It was not the authentic costume that you will see let's say there was a dancers or bedwin Dancers wearing Is it

Nick VinZant 10:00

a though in those cultures though, where it seems to be practiced the most is there a kind of irritation, I guess that like, to me, at least what seems like the bastardized version of it is now the thing that everybody knows?

Valerick Molinary 10:16

Well, there's a lot of stigma about the dance in the Middle East. Even though it's a folklore, dance is not well seen. Generally,

Nick VinZant 10:28

I'm not going to choose the right words for this necessarily, but I think of that culture as being much more kind of religious and more cover up women. And then belly dance seems like a very sexualized dance like, those two things don't seem like they go together very

Valerick Molinary 10:45

well. So it's been a problem, because I feel the dance has been very sexualized. But I think it has to do a lot with the way in general in a global scale, we tend to also sexualized women in entertainment businesses, like it's very common this type of practice. And definitely the the relationship between culture and religion. And then dancing can get a little messy sometimes. And on the other half, I also have to say that these days also, in historical practice, it has been related to sex work. So in the social imaginary, there's this idea that the dancer, it's still kind of like some type of sex worker. But it's really interesting, also this dynamic, because, for example, in the Middle East is an example that they use a lot. It's like, they will want a dancer for the wedding. You know, they will go crazy for the dancer, everybody loves the dancer, as long as she can marry any member of the family. I, for me, it's easy and more accepted. Let's say if I would decide to go to Egypt and become a dancer, for me to do it, then for an Egyptian woman to do it herself. She has to confront other challenges that I don't have to confront. Because I'm an outsider of the of the culture. I go there, I dance and like, they're like, oh, yeah, you know, she said, answer. But, you know, she's American, you know, it's, you know, I don't get that. So harsh judge, they would see me as an artist, but it's different. When an Egyptian woman that society has other type of expectations from her. When she decides to dance, it's she has to comfort her family. Rarely members of her family would not like it, probably, you know, it's it could be even difficult for them to find a place where to live. Because there's a stigma, also the dancer. So those are some of the situations and challenges that these dance has. It's it's interesting, because I just recently came from Egypt. And Egypt we consider kind of like a mecca of the dance like the dancer la dance is very present in the nightlife. Meaning that you go out and you see men and women, belly dancing in nightclubs, cabaret and everywhere. There's a belly dancer everywhere. But still, when you talk to the dancers, you realize that they are, you're constantly going through the struggle and dealing with this thickness

Nick VinZant 13:48

for you know, for for dancers, then that are from that part of the world that you know, is that a big struggle with them? We're like, I like to do this thing. But in my society, even though it's adored, it's also discriminated again.

Valerick Molinary 14:04

Yes, yes. And also, I will say, Nick, there's not too many differences between the stigmas that I also have to come from here in the West, that what they have to confront. So that's why I have a lot of, and I think that's in the beginning, probably I didn't notice or didn't know. That's why I felt so so attracted for Arab woman dancing, because I noticed that they dance differently. Like I noticed that they danced with a different type of power and passion. You know, when I say to people in America that I'm a belly dancer, yes, it's easier for me a question that I always get a lot that I know in the moment people ask me this is that they have no idea what type of work I do. When they asked me do you do passion or it's parties? Is that

Nick VinZant 14:53

from the like, I'll say this, right? Like whenever I see it in movies, there's always the implication that Right, the belly dancer is going to perform and then maybe she's going to do something else afterwards. Yes,

Valerick Molinary 15:04

there's this idea that is a seduction dance. That is a dance to. That's the main idea. Everybody like, the dancer comes, especially in films, she's coming to seduce to distract somebody very faithful, because she's trying to obtain something. Okay. So yeah, there's this expectation, with I feel, in general with exotic dance that if a woman is doing some type of sensual dance right there, there's going to have, there's going to be an after performance that we don't get to see, right? Or it's leading to that place. So people can be more religious, and they can be like, hey, you know what, I'm not gonna even rent you this apartment, because I don't want a belly dancer to be leaving in my property. But But yeah, there's, there's this huge stigma about a dancer, that it's very common. Where you can have the dancer entertaining, basically, the most important events of your life, like birthday parties, like she's the life of the party. But then if, if a member of the family decides to record a video of them belly dancing on teeth, or whatever, that that can be a big deal.

Nick VinZant 16:17

It almost sounds like in the United States, kind of like like a stripper.

Valerick Molinary 16:21

Yeah, yes, it is consumed, it's in certain context. And that's the thing also, like, where is the dad presented, the context will tell you a lot on how it's people consuming this. So for example, if I'm dancing in a wedding, where I'm calming, and the responsibility of the dancer in the wedding, is to kind of like symbolize that type of sensual energy. And like, you're there to kind of like, celebrate love, but symbolically, you are kind of like a representation of Venus, you know, and that the the dancer calm that she says it with the bride and the room, and it's like, this beautiful energy and atmosphere, and everybody's dancing perfectly with it as her everybody's enjoying the performance, then you can also go to the cat barrette, which the camera is a more private context. It's a place where you cannot record it's a place for people who can can go like really wild, they're very fun. You know, people can have all type of, you know, farm get on this day shaky, get crazy, even religious people. But in that type of venue, there are sex workers, there could be some dancers, that could also be sex workers. So you know, that's a place where if I immerse myself there, I know people are going to be consuming my dad's kind of like some type of soft.

Nick VinZant 18:08

Last question kind of in this regard, right? But then how come belly dancing got viewed like that? Where I don't look at other types of dancing like that? It seems to be only specifically belly dancing.

Valerick Molinary 18:19

Yeah. And that you're correct about that. Many people will say to you that this is like the story of colonization, that since the beginning since the 1001 Nights, there's the West has this idea of portraying the Arab world as a place full of sensuality, and made them very, you know, exotic, and there's a movement on artistic movement called Orientalism at the ending of the 19th centuries, where they started to paint and even photograph some of these women in the Turkish bath, but sexualizing them and I think that stereotype of like, like you say, that is such an accurate observation, like, you don't see ballet dancers the same way that you see a belly dancer at all right? But I think the West has been very obsessed with portraying these types of dances, seduction dance, because it's new. It makes sense. And the fact that many of the movements were very focused in the area of the pelvis, I think we immediately want to like super sexualized them.

Nick VinZant 19:45

Welcome in. i What got you into it. What drew you to it?

Valerick Molinary 19:49

Well, I was I was in doing ballet, jazz and acrobatics. When I was very young. I started when I was eight years old. By that time that I was 13. I was in a dance camp, and they offer belly dance class. And my body was changing there at that time that I was becoming a teenager. And puberty was like, really not like, nice to me.

Nick VinZant 20:18

It's a tough time for a lot of tough.

Valerick Molinary 20:21

Yeah. Tough time. And I love the class. Because then at the time, I was getting, you know, I was growing, I did not have the skinny body for ballet, or for jazz. So I was developing a lot of body issues. And then suddenly, I took billions. And I was like, Oh my God, you know, this is a dance where it's all about the curves. This is like difficult, it's new. It looks good on my body. I feel like I can do it. And like it was it was it was the best hobby that I could ask life to have it when I was a teenager.

Nick VinZant 21:07

The correct me if I'm wrong here right now. Have you won international awards are performed internationally are Philip kind of fill in the resume?

Valerick Molinary 21:15

Yes, I did. I competed for four years. My first competition I wanted to tell said nine was the Miami Bellydance Convention, which was an event here. That's how I actually finished in Miami because I won that competition and they offered me a job here. Then I did another one here in Miami called Rockstar that I got second place and people show it somewhere. Then I did another one called queen of rec Sharkey in Texas that had a full the judges were all Egyptian. And then 2014 or 13. I do now group festival that that was an art competition that I did in a festival in Egypt in Cairo. And I got the first place professional category.

Nick VinZant 22:04

That must have been a really big deal. Oh, feel like that would be a big deal.

Valerick Molinary 22:09

Yeah, no, that was like to be able to measure myself in that scale. It was very majestic, beautiful and empowering and difficult at the same time.

Nick VinZant 22:26

How is the kind of atmosphere in terms of like how much people like it different over there than it is in the United States?

Valerick Molinary 22:34

First of all, it's part of their culture. So everybody dances like naturally and even men. This is something that people have this idea of constantly framing this dance as only for women. But it's incredible. When you go there in the nightlife and you see the amount of guys doing hip work.

Nick VinZant 22:52

Like what would you compare it to there that something that you would compare it to here, okay?

Valerick Molinary 22:58

The audiences are looking for different things. Here in the West, they're looking for entertainment. So I have to bring swords, I have to really candle Dre, I have to give them more elements of showmanship. Okay. They're they're just looking for an answer that it's more connected to the music,

Nick VinZant 23:20

a shell versus a performer.

Valerick Molinary 23:22

Exactly. Yeah. So they're the dancer. It's really connecting with the music, the musicians and the audience. She's kind of like, in Arabic music, there's something called Terra, which is like the dance. The music produced this type of like ecstasies experience. And in terrible music, the music tends to repeat a lot. So it kind of like takes you to that moment, you know, when you like that song a lot. And you put it and you put it and every time you put it, it sounds better, better, better, better. Some of the musical structures over the songs in the Arab world are meant like that to take up the audience into that tap experience to the ecstasy says three years, we'll do it just like in this enjoying music into a different level. And the dancer has to amplify that experience. The dancer, it's kind of like being a visual representation of that. And here in the West, we don't have that type of communication with the audience.

Nick VinZant 24:23

It seems like Western dancing is more paint by numbers, right? Like you're doing specific movements. Like there's an instructional seat. mm sheet for it. Exactly. And that kind of music is more like just flowing with it.

Valerick Molinary 24:36

Exactly. It's drastically different.

Nick VinZant 24:40

Are there certain kinds of traditional movements to it like,

Valerick Molinary 24:43

yeah, for sure steps are going to be very basic. What makes it different is actually the dancer each dancer, their goal is to create their own style, and that's what people will like about you. That's why people will enjoy to see one Our of our show of yours because you will get you move in a very particular way. And that means that you your musicality, it's very particular the way that you hear the music is very particular. The way you execute the movement are very particular. But we're basically sharing the same set of steps. But they can be done in drastically different ways. And the shape and the body of the dancer can make the also the movement look totally different.

Nick VinZant 25:30

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted? Question? Yes. Best place to perform

Valerick Molinary 25:37

that the classroom the dance classroom?

Nick VinZant 25:41

Is there a country though?

Valerick Molinary 25:43

Oh, you want me play culturally? Okay, I country, a country a country, best place to perform? I'll have like, God, this is so difficult. I have to pick three Puerto Rico because of course I'm very attached to my land, like the few times that I get to have performing opportunities there. Like I really, like I'm back home. Second one, I have to say Egypt. For sure. Egypt. Yeah, that's it. I say Brother regarding Egypt.

Nick VinZant 26:18

Who's the best celebrity belly dancer.

Valerick Molinary 26:20

Ah, oh, there's a lot of them. There's, well, one of my favorites. It's Fifi Abdu, which was a very famous dancer in the 80s and 90s. She has super strong personality. She became also like a TV personality. And she's already older, but she looks super good. And she put videos of her dancing the entire time. In her Instagram. The entire time she's always putting videos of her dancing, so I love her what she represents. I love that. She eats profanity like, easy her 60s And like she just make herself super glamorous and dance with so much confidence. And you can tell she loves her body. So I want to say Fie, fie, fie. Fie. Fie is my favorite belly dance personality.

Nick VinZant 27:25

The one I always think of is Shakira.

Valerick Molinary 27:27

Oh Shaq, Kira, chalky, has Lebanese background. But Shakira, what she does is a lot of like, we couldn't like isolating movements and accents. I haven't seen a performance of her what I say okay, you know, she's really, really, really belly dancing. Like, what'd she do with the robe and everything? It's still too westernized for me.

Nick VinZant 27:58

It's, it's got it's like derived from it exactly why

Valerick Molinary 28:02

I can't tell the jazz teacher was there telling her all work here. And then we'll combine it with this. And that's it.

Nick VinZant 28:12

Who is there somebody that's like I always use Michael Jordan. Is there somebody that would be like, Oh, that's the best Jelly Belly Dancer of all time.

Valerick Molinary 28:19

Right now in Egypt. I like a dancer a lot that is called Oksana. And Oksana is a Russian dancer that has incredible flexibility and she can do things with her body that have never seen anybody doing. I like a Brazilian dancer a lot called Sariah. Yet, that for me, she was one of the best entertainers of all time, she will finish her. Her show playing that our Buka and like she would do all type of variety of folklore dancers dances, like you will see her show and it was like, show, show all her all her and she's like 411 She's super small. And she's this giant heels. So I like her a lot. Her hip work is ridiculous. She's Brazilian, also. So she incorporates some of Brazilian dancing in her belly dancing. And it looks so good. And yeah, I want to say like those two are basically some of my favorite dancers nowadays that I like other words,

Nick VinZant 29:33

does belly dancing, expose or cover up a bad dancer? Like if you're a bad dancer? Does belly dancing really showcase that or can you be like, Oh, you can kind of hide it a little bit with this.

Valerick Molinary 29:47

Not really if you're a bad dancer, you know and also what represents to be a bad dancer. I think that there's certain things that are different, difficult to kind of like cut verb with values, for example, the musicality of a person. If you're a person that doesn't have musicality, this is the type of dance that will definitely highlight it.

Nick VinZant 30:13

That makes sense. Now, are you a good dancer and other things? Yes. Our most but our most good belly dancers, probably good dancers and other things not

Valerick Molinary 30:21

I mean, I think it's good to like, explore other than styles. But for me, I had a training before get into belly dance, like I used to do ballet, jazz, modern dance, so I'm okay.

Nick VinZant 30:39

Best belly dancing scene in a movie, or a TV show.

Valerick Molinary 30:49

My Favorite Dancer is from an Indian movie. I don't remember the name, but it's Nadia Jamal, if I'm mistaking it's from the 1970s 80s poem, read GRE from GRE. But yeah, it's a very iconic that scene where she's dancing on the stage. And like, there's a thing, these investigators that arrive and she's dancing, and they're like, totally mesmerized by her dancing, and there's a little bit of comedy involved. But and yeah, and she's one of my favorite dancers. Also nadie Jamal. She was a famous Egyptian dancer, she moved to Lebanon did her career in Lebanon, and was one of the first dancers that came here to the US, from the Middle East to train dancers in the 90s. And yeah, she has that iconic, that scene, and she asked me the kinas Flora work there.

Nick VinZant 31:55

What tip would you give to somebody just starting out? Tip you would give to somebody that's like, Ah, I'm struggling with this aspect of it. Like, I just can't get this down.

Valerick Molinary 32:05

For somebody that is starting out. Okay? Be patient. It takes time, and enjoy the journey. Okay, because people take the first classes and they find that that is very difficult it is oh my god. Yeah, like everything, it takes time. You know, you just have to like, go later by later, find a really good teacher with good credentials. This is very important. Now, because somebody is a Zumba teacher doesn't mean that they have the preparation to teach this dance with the cultural sensibility that it requires us to teach us something correct and authentic. And for people that are struggling with their challenges in today's it could be something technical, it could be like starting improvisation. Give it a time, give it a time. Be very have compassion with yourself. And understand also that discipline is not necessarily like this, they simply can't be like this. So as long as you can keep those commitments, it's okay. It's then suddenly you take a month that you couldn't make it to class, or you could have practiced this. Okay, and then next month is coming and you're gonna continue at so try to be as close system as you can. I will say that that will be my main advice.

Nick VinZant 33:31

That's pretty much all the questions that I had. Is there anything that you think we missed or what's kind of not next for you? Well, I

Valerick Molinary 33:38

have lots of future projects. I am organizing the first Miami Bellydance retreat in Miami, happening August 24, to the 28th. And we're combining Bellydance with other wellness alternatives. So that's something that I think is going to be majestic next year. And I have a theatrical production, also called Bellydance stories with Alexandra Molina, which is another dancer here from Miami, where we actually we combine creative writing and dancing. And in this production, the dancers, which are some of our students and people from our community. Tell a little bit about their story, what their dancing and what their performance represents. And then they perform it so we we did the the the first show this year, in August, I think we did it and it was very majestic because we have we have pieces in the show talking about fatphobia depression, body positivity. You name it, and all these ladies basically talk about how the Belizeans journey how to them. That's good with all those challenges. So yeah, basically my platform is just to continue helping women and empowering them to dance and rebellious and. And that's it. That's what makes me very happy.

Economic Futurist Andrew Busch

What does the New Year have in store for 2023? Economic Futurist Andrew Busch specializes in predicting what’s next for the economy and what that means for you. We talk inflation, recession fears, new technologies that will change the world and where to invest your money in 2023. Then, we unveil our Candle of the Year and countdown the Top 5 Trends that Should Stay in 2022.

Andrew Busch: 01:43

Pointless: 44:42

Top 5: 01:06:30

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Contact the Show)

www.andrewbusch.com (Andrew Busch Website)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewbusch/ (Andrew Busch Linkedin)

https://mobile.twitter.com/abusch (Andrew Busch Twitter)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1mkulYlOw6HREXdPpSHEng (Andrew Busch YouTube)

Interview with Economic Futurist Andrew Busch

Nick VinZant 0:10

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, our economic future, and things that should stay in the past,

Andrew Busch 0:21

there are massive changes that are going on things that are just kind of hard to get your head around, and they're occurring so rapidly, this generation is going to experience more change in the next five years than we've had. And over the last 50. I know there's a lot of people who are against things like GMO, but I will tell you that the synthetic biology that's going on right now, is amazing. In agriculture, there's three areas that I like, going forward, if you've noticed in the recent sell off of the stock market, defense stocks have held up extraordinarily well. Like if you think you have any income inequality now, just wait, because who's going to be able to do that? The wealthy,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is an economic futurist who specializes in looking at what's ahead, and how that is going to affect the life today, especially when we're talking about business and the economy. He has worked at the highest levels of both government and in the private sector. This is economic futurists, Andrew Bush, what do you think is ahead in 2023?

Andrew Busch 1:46

So my big thing is context. Too often. People want to know what what's coming next. And I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's good to know. But unless you understand the context, like where we've been, so you understand where we are, so you can see where we're going unless you have those three together? Like you don't know what you don't know. So I think what's really salient for your audience is to say, Well, look, what happened to get us to where we are, right. So just really quickly, obviously, COVID, and the Ukraine war combined to make probably the largest disruption to our lifetimes of the economy, I mean, it just everything else. So with that in mind, you know, the reaction of governments around the world to deal with that also was extraordinarily disruptive, not only from, you know, our central banks, creating zero interest rates, but also from the government spending just massive amounts of money, like we've never seen before, in such a short period of time. So that's the context for understanding what is going on. And if you think about the US economy, just really quickly, prior to the COVID, like 70% of it was about consumer spending, right on services, and about 30% Were on goods, well, if you couldn't spend money on services, like going to a bar, restaurant, hotel, travel, all that kind of fun stuff. You know, you kind of held on to that money, but then you you know, if you're working from home, or you had to stay at home, then you start looking around you go, you know, I need a new computer, I need a desk, I need, you know, I'm kind of sick in the bed, I'm sleeping it, you know, all of those goods, you know, that spending got jacked up. And so that's why like, if you ordered a sofa in like 2021, and it never showed up, that's why there was just like, huge demand for all of these different goods, you know, durable goods, things that are physical, along with the technology. So that created a lot of inflation, it created a lot of supply chain disruptions, all of those kinds of things were occurring, at the same time that a lot of money was sloshing in in creating some some dislocations. And then you had a lot of people drop out. I mean, there was a lot, first of all, sadly, there was like half a million people died. So you lost a lot of people in the workforce from that. The next thing is, is you had over 2 million more people retire. And then the next thing was you had a much smaller cohort of the 20 to 28 year olds of people coming into the labor force all of those well, and then we shut our borders too. So all that wrapped into a labor shortage situation. So those are all the things that like combined into this year of 2022. They created the conditions where, you know, the authorities, central banks around the world said, We got to deal with this, like 10% inflation. And so that's when they began raising interest rates and they continue to raise interest rates to this day, and will likely continue to raise interest rates into 2023. So that's that's the backdrop of what we have going on as we go into 2023. So when you say what's ahead, here's what's ahead. We're going to have probably a mild recession and sometime in the US The sometime during 2023, I don't want to put exact, you know, first quarter second quarter in and that kind of stuff because I don't know what I don't know when it comes to that Ukraine war is not likely to get resolved, that's going to continue going forward. So that's going to create all sorts of, you know, problems when it comes to energy. And that translates in kicks into every aspect of the economy, food, you know, goods, all of those things. And then finally, there are things that are going on that, that I like to think of, that nobody talks about, that are just amazing things like synthetic biology. And I see so many positive things that are happening there. So as we look into 2023, and going beyond, I mean, there's all sorts of really cool things that are happening, that if you're only looking at the news, or only looking at your your Google feed or your Twitter feed, you're thinking, Oh, my God, the world is coming to an end. Where I see things, there's just amazing developments that are happening, that are going to make our world so much better. And I know it doesn't feel that way right now, especially with climate change and the storms that are happening and, and greenhouse gas emissions. But there are serious people at work, doing fantastic things that we're going to see the fruition of that shortly over the next two to three to five years. So what's coming, I would say some really good things, as we're getting through all of these bad things.

Nick VinZant 6:28

When you know, going through the last two years, we're recording this in 2022. It was always a question in my mind, like, has the shoe dropped yet? I feel like we're recovering from the pandemic. But then every time we start to recover, like something else happens that pushes us back. Do you feel like we're headed more towards? Are we headed more towards more instability or more stability?

Andrew Busch 6:53

That is a great question. And I would frame it this way for millennials, they've come into the job market and what happened to him, I mean, the global financial crisis, so that was bad, especially if you'd bought a house, I mean, in you know, anywhere in 2000, or even a condo or whatever. So you feel pretty bad about that, then you're slowly recovering, right? And then all of a sudden, COVID hits, and then everybody's knocked backwards. And then the Ukraine war hits. So um, so from that standpoint, I can totally understand your your question about the next shoe to drop? And what I would say is like, look, yes, these are terrible things that have happened, for sure. But I'd like to use a reference to men and black when it comes to this, right. And at the end of the movie, the first one, which was the best one, the Tommy Lee Jones character, and the Will Smith character have this conversation. And Tommy Jones says, you know, I want to go back to where I was before, you know, I want to I don't want to know all about this, all these bad things that have happened. And Will Smith says, Yeah, but this crisis that's going on right now, you know, what are we going to do about it, and this is the thing that I always tell people, it's like, Tommy Jones says, there's always somebody coming to invade Earth, right to destroy it. And, and that's the way I look at the world. Like, there's always bad things going on. It's it's, it's where the good things are going on that you don't hear a lot about that you really have to start to think forward about those because they're very positive. They're very directional in in a good way. And I would say this, like, there are massive changes that are going on things that are just kind of hard to get your head around. And they're occurring so rapidly, that it can feel like when they cascade downward, that they're just like, everything's falling apart. And I understand that, but I don't see the world coming to an end. I don't see another alien force invading our, our Earth, I'd see positive things that are happening. And I don't want to belabor the point, but it's just it's so easy to go down that path to do scroll and feel terrible about the world.

Nick VinZant 9:14

Yeah, I mean, I'm a former news reporter. And I always say like, the world is always ending. It's always, you know, it needs it leans baby. It does. It does. There seems to be like this disconnect, though, between corporations and the people that they employ. That is, you know, are people getting burned out? Like, who do you think has the power moving forward? The employers or the employees?

Andrew Busch 9:42

Well, right now we're seeing a big shift. Obviously, we're seeing a big shift with labor unions. Pilots union getting a 30% increase over two years is a fine example of that. The real world workers getting a 25% increase there over a short period of time, that shows you a shift shift from where we were, as far as the way that we looked at employees, and what they were being paid. Maybe it all goes back to, you know, minimum wage at 15. You know, trying to get that to $15. So I would say these are forces that have been at work in, in really now, because of the shortage of labor, it's put, if you would power back into the hands of employees in the sense that they're demanding things that they want. And were not able to get those previously worked from home is a great example that higher pay higher pays is great. But really flexibility and schedule, I think that's really important. More focus on work life balance, more focus on mental health issues, those things are great, and will actually lead to more productivity, I believe. So from that standpoint, I think it's really your question is great, because there is this shift going on. I wouldn't say necessarily power but a better focus back on employees to get not only get them what they want, but actually to help them be more productive.

Nick VinZant 11:11

Is that going to be the case moving forward? Because I keep hearing all these things that basically like the labor force is dwindling. And once all the boomers retire, this idea of growth all the time, but we just don't have the population to sustain that anymore.

Andrew Busch 11:27

Yeah, I mean, you know, really, I mean, what is growth was GDP growth, it's productivity times the number of workers. And so if productivity is flat, and your number of workers is flat, your economy is flat. So then you get into this question of, hey, can we get more workers? If we can't, then can we increase productivity? And the answer is yes, you can actually get both. Right now, there's a real problem in the United States, because of the immigration issue. There's actually it's so acute right now, I don't need to go granular on this, but we just don't have a legal immigration program, right. Now, we need to fix that. But the productivity side of things, if we have less workers, I guarantee you the direction that companies are going in, and everyone else is going in as well, is how do we make workers more efficient? How do we get more out of them for the time that they put in, there's a lot of things that do that, you know, different types of software, CRM is a great example of that. But AI is another thing that's that is going to assist workers, and AI is not something that's down the road, it's happening right now. Stitch Fix is a great example of utilities utilizing AI, you know, and the way that they, you know, can take a picture of you, but also how AI works with the designers. And you know, the people that are designing the clothes and picking out the clothes for you that you can have disagreements between AI and the sticks, stitch, fix people, but generally, they make each other better over time. So that's where I think things will go as far as being able to increase productivity to increase output. Even with fewer workers,

Nick VinZant 13:15

you obviously work in a lot of different sectors, agriculture, etc. Where do you think is going to be like, Oh, this is going to be where we're going to see a lot of changes. Like if you jumped in a time machine, so to speak, and fast forwarded? This sector would look totally different than it did in years past?

Andrew Busch 13:36

Yeah, I mean, I know people maybe look askance at agriculture and think, oh, you know, why would you spend so much time there? Again, context is king here, these people are selling a commodity. So what does that mean? They have to be the most efficient producers of that commodity, because everybody knows what the price is. It's not, you know, like everybody knows what the price of corn is. It's not like you can be Microsoft selling a specific product that nobody else sells. So you can, you know, have really big margins. That's not the way it works. So these are the people that are at the forefront of using technology in any way, shape, or form that they can to be more efficient, more productive. So I do spend a lot of time there. I see amazing things happening in that space. I know there's a lot of people who are against things like GMO, but I will tell you that the synthetic biology that's going on right now, is amazing in agriculture, that can really help agriculture feed the world, which is really important, but also overcome the problems with climate change that we're going to experience. Whether we stop greenhouse gas emissions today, we're still going to have problems for some time on that and the volatile weather that we have, whether it's droughts or storms or you name it, heat, all of those things. We need to be better at producing crops that can survive in those things. In in those environments, and then also increase yields. So I see just amazing things that are going on there that are using technology. Like if you were wowed by mRNA, that was came about because of CRISPR technology, the CRISPR technology that is used in agriculture is amazing. I mean, they're taking viruses as an example, using CRISPR, to, to turn off the bad component of the virus, and then modify it so that that virus can go on wheat, that kills a bacteria that grows on the on the way that kills the weed head, right. So like, it's kind of mind blowing of what you can do in synthetic biology. And then the use of AI is just amazing, and how they hook up all the different pieces of equipment. Now, that's, I mean, that's just a minor example of what's going on with it. I mean, every financial services firm, who's got their act together is using AI in a lot of different ways. So just a couple of examples. But I really think agriculture is such an important one for the planet overall. And I'm just blown away at the advances in it. I know that's gonna scare a lot of people. But there are really good things that are going on, especially with synthetic biology in that space. They're somewhere so much further past the scares of GMO. The other thing too, is, here's here's the thing about again, I'm gonna go back to agriculture, but they're developing plants that can they can absorb greenhouse gas emissions, and hold them in their roots, like a 30% increase over what they could do before. That is just amazing stuff. And so I get excited by this, as you can tell, because I think there's again, there's some really good things that are happening, that you're not hearing about unless you do your homework on this. So I think Agriculture remains for me just one of the most exciting areas that's that's rapidly developing positive things that are going to help out in the future.

Nick VinZant 17:05

This is kind of a rant for me, but I feel like COVID was a small showing of nature's power. And I feel like climate change is going to PAMP pound us into the ground. Are we ready for that? Right? Is that? What's gonna happen? Cuz I'm worried?

Andrew Busch 17:28

Yes, climate change is brutal right now, um, even the storms that just moved through the United States right now where we had just a ton of rain, bad tornadoes, and then you get this incredible cold wave that came in. These things are more persistent in their patterns. And so what I would say is, this is like, look, there's a lot of smart people working on this. As an example, in the last government spending bill, a lot of people don't realize this, this is the inflation Reduction Act. There, they're spending $369 billion on reducing greenhouse gas emissions, this is the largest spend by the US government ever to address climate change. Now, within that, there's a ton of money going into research. Here's an example. And this is what really gets me excited. So the Department of Energy, had a fund that invested in companies had about a $30 billion fund that invested in companies, you can make loans or grants or whatever, to develop technologies that are going to address things like greenhouse gas emission. Under this last bill, the amount of money they have now is $250 billion. And that goes into a ton of research. So I guess what I'm saying is like, look, yes, things are terrible now. And the storms are bad. And, you know, rising sea levels will create additional problems, for sure. But I would say this, I'm always blown away at the entrepreneurial zeal that is in the United States. It's why people like to invest in this country. It's like why people want to continue to come into this country. And I'm blown away by the amount of money that's flowing into specifically this space to address these issues. So I would say yes, things are bad now, but things change rapidly, just over the next two to three years, not like five and 10 years down the road. I'd see solutions coming to deal with greenhouse gas emissions. You know, just as an example. Now, it's not applicable yet, but I mean, they actually had a breakthrough in Fusion nuclear fusion technology, that they got gained by the reaction. In other words, they got more energy out of the procedure, and then they put into it. Now, we're probably a decade away from that. And that's not even the most salient technology for what's going on in fusion. But let's say we come up with something that's pretty decent over the next five years, all of a sudden, this whole thing about greenhouse gas emissions really changes in its tone, we can develop something that is more efficient and creating energy, then you don't burn greenhouse gas emissions. So like that to me, like, I don't want to be pollyannish. But like, please, don't just focus on the negative, there's great things that are happening.

Nick VinZant 20:27

As a millennial, that is not how they are. Right? It's so is. So as a millennial, right? Like, we basically went from one crisis to another from 911 to 2008 2000. Right, etc, etc. Is there a generation that you would say, though, that like, you know, what, they're really going to benefit over the next couple of years and this generation, you might, you might kind of get left out of this.

Andrew Busch 20:58

Now, this generation is going to experience more change in the next five years than we've had. And over the last 50 things build, they take time to build, I mean, you think about I mean, just to use the iPhone as an example, like, just even to get the glue that you have to use for the screens that they have just to develop that took decades. And so yes, you're standing on the shoulders of the people who went before you to create that product, it took forever. I mean, all of those things had to lead to the development of, of the iPhone. Same thing with CRISPR. Same thing with AI. I mean, you couldn't do AI with without cloud, we had to get cloud computing, right, you had to have the data storage, otherwise, you couldn't create a GPT general purpose technology like AI, without it. So we're at the very beginning stages of taking all of this incredible technology and applying it in a very useful way to our lives. It just doesn't feel like it because we're still dealing with a lot of the past that are bad things that, you know, a lot of boomers get blamed for I get it. Right. But honestly, there's a lot of really things that are like that are that we're on the cusp of right now. So I would say I'm more excited about the next 510 years than I about anything that's happened over the next over the last 50 years. I mean, there's just great things coming. That's all I can say.

Nick VinZant 22:31

I'm gonna butcher this acronym. So Correct. Correct. The resume, you were the chief, the first chief market in an I O some intelligence officer. So what was that? What do you think of the situation now? I guess is the Yeah. So uneducated way to ask you that question.

Andrew Busch 22:55

Yes. So I was very fortunate. I was very first chief marketing intelligence officer for the US government. So my job was to take all of the research all the I had a team of 40 researchers looking at the economy in the markets, what was going on, we had the best data on the planet better than anyone else. And I literally mean that better than any hedge fund, because we could see the position changes of all the major players in the futures market of every product that's out there. So what does that mean? That means like, if I saw a piece of news come out, and I saw, let's say Exxon Mobil change their position in oil futures, for whatever reason, I'd be like, Huh, that's important to them. So let me dive into whatever that piece of news was, that changed what we call the market narrative. So that just informed me to make much better decisions Overall, about how the world worked. So it was the coolest position. I worked for a friend of mine, and not a friend of mine, but somebody I'd known who became a chairman of an agency, the CFTC. And we, we jointly created this position. So it was really like, nobody does that. Nobody does that in US government. So very unusual. But with that, I got exposure to Nobel Prize winners, to you know, people in the industry in the financial industry that are smarter than I'll get out. So I can glean from all of these people and understand the world much better. And then in turn, my job was to communicate that to Congress, to the Senate, to the house to, to the White House, all of these different groups and to be external as well. So that Job was just amazing. I did that from 2017 to the end of 2019. And that really helped me understand how the world worked. We we looked at a wide range of things, not only AI but you know, Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. And my view on them hasn't changed since they've collapsed and the collapse of FTX and everything else that's going on in that space. it. So it was a fascinating experience. And here's the thing that just blew me away about this experience in your left. There are really smart people working at the top levels of government. I know

Nick VinZant 25:21

that, that runs counterintuitive to all my

Andrew Busch 25:27

work. So what I want to provide some comfort to people like when the world starts falling apart, there are brilliant people who really stepped in to try to help out, come up with solutions. Now Congress is a different animal, they do crazy things all the time. They're politicians. But that's the one comforting thing that I really want to impress upon everybody. That surprised me. I did not expect that. And so that made me feel a lot better about what was going on in the world overall.

Nick VinZant 25:54

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yeah, bring them on, give you one of the easier like maybe one of the easier ones? Where should I put my money?

Andrew Busch 26:05

So yeah, I just did an interview on this, you can go to Andrew bush.com, and watch it there. But there's three areas that I like, going forward. I already mentioned synthetic biology, like I'm not going to tell you like exactly what to do. That's not my job. That's for you to work with a wealth manager or whoever you want to work with. Do your own homework, what's your risk tolerance? I don't know any of those things. What I do know is there's three areas I like a lot. One is synthetic biology. Two is the development of AI and three is and this is terrible. But I'm a money flow guy. So I'm being honest here is defense. If you've noticed in the recent sell off of the stock market, defense stocks have held up extraordinarily well. Now, there's a reason for that, because the world is becoming somewhat bifurcated between autocratic regimes regimes like Russia, like China, and democratic regimes like the United States, and like EU, and that leads to conflict. And because Europe's had an existential threat to them, namely Russia being on their doorstep with Ukraine, they've woken up to the fact that that's a big risk. So they have to say, you know, maybe we ought to step up our defense spending. And that's exactly what we've seen. Japan just made a huge change in the way that they approach defense, and they're going to spend a lot more money on it. Now, overall, how does that fit with my optimistic world? Well, when people aren't weak, it's less likely that they get attacked. So I would say we're a little bit going back into the Cold War. But we're also hopefully in a situation where we're mad, right, Mutual Assured Destruction if people try to engage in what Russia is doing right now in the Ukraine. So those are the three areas that I like, with the caveat that one of them's not necessarily super positive. But, you know, if you're looking to place money, where money flows are going, which is my big thing, when I help clients, I think those three areas you'll do well with.

Nick VinZant 28:17

So this may be more of a societal question, right? And if it's not your area, let me know it's not your area. But it seems to be like this juxtaposition between power to the people on one side and power to the dictators on another. Right, like we seem to be going back and forth. Why do you think that is? Is this normal? Who wins? I guess, like, what do you is that even a correct assumption that there's this like Power to the People, on the other hand, like, let's get the one strong leader, there seems to be like a battle between those two opposing philosophies.

Andrew Busch 28:56

I think that's more interesting in the democratic countries, the United States, Brazil are great examples of that. And I'll say this, like because of the January 6 event that occurred in the United States and the severe test of our Constitution at that point. The good news is, and the great news that everybody should take a lot of comfort, as is that it held our institutions held the theories behind those institutions held. That's fantastic news. You don't know if something really works until it gets tested in a really difficult manner. That's what we just experienced. So while it may feel terrible, and this would probably add to the list of things that millennials feel terrible about, right? There's that very difficult transition. But the fact is that people did speak. They brought in a different president. And so our constitution held and that's what elections are all about. The same thing just happened in Brazil. And you You saw the the peaceful transfer of power that's so critical for any democracy. So I would say it seems like democracies have tilted towards stronger rulers and, and become a little bit more Latin American and their structure like of what people voted for. But I would say we have really experienced that. And now we're moving back the other way, I think more than ever, we want people in this country who can produce results, to really solve the problems that we have today, and not fight the problems of the past. And I think that's the direction we're heading in. Yes. It seems like that we've gone through that period of time. We're, you know, people gravitated towards strong man rulers. I think we're moving away from those now.

Nick VinZant 30:55

Yeah, I never really thought of it until you mentioned that that way that that was like such an such a lynchpin moment, but it seems so bad. But then at the same time, it's like, Well, we did actually kind of get through it. Yeah, it did, like the bridge did hold, in a way. Okay.

Andrew Busch 31:15

But on the other side of that is, the autocratic regimes that are out there now are even more autocratic. China is a perfect example of that with President Xi, you know, eliminating the two term limit on how long somebody can stay in power. And then obviously, Vladimir Putin is another example of that. So, like I said, there's this bifurcating world that we're we're going to experience going forward. That makes things challenging. So I sorry, I didn't interrupt your question. But I just think it's important that, that we've moved through that process from a democratic standpoint, from a democracy standpoint, or a representative government standpoint, but other countries have actually gone further in that direction. And that is destabilizing overall, you make better decisions when you involve more people, right? That's the concept of diversity. You get different ideas that can really enhance wherever you're going on a decision. That's not happening in Russia. And that's not necessarily happening in China,

Nick VinZant 32:18

and follow it up with this brilliant question. What movie do you think has the most accurate depiction of what the future will be like?

Andrew Busch 32:28

Oh, my gosh. Actually, you know what, here's the book that you should read. It's called ai 2041. Now, this was written by two ex Google executives. What's over cool about this, and I love this book is that it's science fiction, there's science fiction, short stories. And so those are really fun. And at the end of each one of these short stories, they do about three or four, maybe even five pages describing the technology that's in the short story and how it is today and where it's going in the future. To me, that's just gold. I love that. Like, if you're if you're a futurist, if you're really interested in where things are going, take a read on that book, it's super easy. You can just read a chapter at a time. And it's, it's just a blast. From a science fiction, nut standpoint, I really dig stuff like that.

Nick VinZant 33:23

Is there a technology or a thing happening in society, though, that maybe from a perspective of like, okay, we can do this? Should we do this? Yeah. Is there something that you're like, wait a minute, maybe we shouldn't do that?

Andrew Busch 33:39

Yeah, I think we need to get into synthetic biology. That's where some weirdness can come in. Not to get too deep into this, but cells have a trigger called senescence. senescence, which is basically they grow old and they stop reproducing, right? I mean, to make it simple. We could theoretically in the future, stop that. So that people could live a lot longer than they do now. And, and you can even go further with that, probably down the road where you could actually rebuild different parts of your body and the cells that are in there. The question is, do we want to do that? What kind of problems would we have because of that? You think people like if you think you'd have any income inequality now, just wait, because who's going to be able to do that? The wealthy for sure. And the longer you live, the wealthier you become? You know, you create assets that you're hold on to and they don't pass them to generations, then it makes the problem worse. So you'll really get a sectioning off of of different income levels across different countries because has that. So that's those things really bother me. Currently, I would say, there's really not enough being regulated as far as live biology right now. There's crazy stuff that's going on that could get outside of a lab that worries me. There's something called gain of function, when it comes to testing viruses that could have produced COVID. There's a lot of theories about that in Wuhan, and China. But the study of gain of function is a disturbing one, because you could take measles and you could modify it. And then if it gets out, like modified to make it more virulent, to see if it would change or adapt in a new environment to understand it better. But if that got out, you kill 1000s of people, hundreds of 1000s of people, like what keeps me up at night, some of this kind of stuff. While I'm very, very positive about it, there are aspects of it that are disturbing from a societal standpoint, and risks that are out there. From a pandemic simple standpoint.

Nick VinZant 36:03

What is something that you think like, Oh, hey, we used to do this, this is a commonplace thing, but like, we're not gonna do that anymore. What goes away kind of like?

Andrew Busch 36:16

So we're laughing about this the other day. So I went in to open up a checking account right? Now, this is hilarious, because you physically have to go in, right? And so when I'm sitting there, the person asked me, they go, Well, do you want checks? And I was like, Well, of course I want to so you have to get and she said, You don't understand. Like, if I ask a millennial that they'll go, what's the use case of a check? It's, so in other words, like, it depends on your framework of like, okay, like, Now, are we going to move to a cashless society, right, where we don't use cheques or cash at all. And so we're heading in that direction overall. But there's certain things for cash that we will continue to use, that has big implications for all sorts of financial services that are out there has big implications for things like ATM machines, but it also has big societal implications for people who don't have checking accounts. Now, it sounds crazy, but there's a lot of people that aren't banked, that are poor, that get cards for, you know, food credits, that they can go. And they use those just like a credit card, they don't have a checking account. And so those are the people that got sent cards for the STEMI checks that came in actually as a card for them. So, you know, thinking some kind of an interesting topic to get into. But, you know, when people are saying, Oh, we're gonna get, we're gonna get rid of, you know, checks, and also cash. That's something that you'd have to think long and hard about, there's a lot more to that than what you realize and the people that are going to be impacted by that. So just something to think about. As we go forward, I do think it'll become less and less. But, you know, we have to be careful, because you can end up hurting people that you don't want to hurt.

Nick VinZant 38:20

This is the last last question that we got. Okay. What is your words? Two questions, actually. So this is this is a completely safe space, there is no, there's no judgment of any of the theories. What is your absolute boldest prediction for the future? Like if you're at your futurist buddies, you couldn't even say it to them? They would be like, what? That's ridiculous. What would you say is your boldest prediction for the future, your safest prediction for the future?

Andrew Busch 38:52

Well, there's two different things. Usually, I do try to let the data tell me where things are going.

I would say because of the movement into electric vehicles, and the demand that that's going to generate for the grid, we have to generate a massive amount of power. And so I'm not like I'm not in the camp that we're going to need fossil fuels forever. I'm in the camp that we need power for everything for, for we need so much power, it's hard to comprehend right now. So my boldest prediction is this is that we're going to run into some severe problems. If we get as many people as we think we do. If we get up to 50% EVs, we got a massive problem in a short period of time, because we can't generate the amount of power for the grid. So I would say my boldest prediction is we got a big power problem that we got to solve fast. And that leads me to believe, of course that we will solve it. So I'm like, That's my big thing is like, I think we're going to transition faster off of greenhouse gas. Fossil fuels, I should say, and reduce down the amount of greenhouse gas emissions, I think it's going to happen faster because we have to do it, we don't have enough energy right now. And so there's positive things that are moving forward as far as that goes, but that, to me, is going to happen in a shorter period of time, that will move more rapidly. Because we need to, because we have to ignore the choice about it. And then positive things will come out of reduction of volatility, eventually, from climate change, because of that. So that's my boldest prediction. It sounds kind of like, whatever everybody talks about alternative fuels and stuff like that. But to me, it's like, yes, there's a reason why we're talking about it. Because like, this is really cool. There's so many things that are happening, there's so many people that are want to buy electric vehicles, all you have to do is look at the top 10 automakers out there and see where they're shifting their production to. And places like California saying, you know, by 2035, there's no ice engines, or I think it's 2030. There's no internal combustion engines that can be sold in the state of New cars. So there's an acceleration coming on that front, that's going to be challenging. But again, that's why I say this transition is going to happen a lot faster than most people realize.

Nick VinZant 41:33

Yeah, that's definitely one of those things. We're like, Alright, let's do this. Oh, shit. Oh, yeah. It's always the thing you don't see. Right, right. It's like always like, oh, yeah, we need to do. And I think that's about that part. For me, that's

Andrew Busch 41:53

the fun part is getting people to think like that, and go, Hey, you know, these rare earths that we have right now, in the batteries, you know, we need lithium, we need cobalt. That's not going to get us there. We need a different type of battery, we need a different type of storage system for electricity. We'll get there. I don't know what it will be, you know, what, could we use hydrogen? Yeah, sure. I mean, that's another power source, for sure. But can we get a lot more efficient at those kinds of things? So it's, it's, it's like, it's like seeing where we're going, and then going, and then backing it up going? What do we need to get there? Like, what has to change to really get these changes going forward, like the you know, to, to really enact that trend, and get that outcome that we want? Oh, batteries are one part of it? You know, cars are another part of it, you know, what else can we do? Where else can we solve this problem? So that's, that's really the fun part. When when you're looking at these bigger trends,

Nick VinZant 42:58

we do have we are resilient. You know, I would say that about humanity, like we do tend to, we take bad steps, right? Oh, yeah, tend to kind of move in generally in the right direction.

Andrew Busch 43:15

It is, we're resilient, I think is the best way of putting it. Human beings throughout history have have been that way. It's how we've survived. It's truly a miracle that we're still alive, kicking it to this day that we were wiped out by something. But our immune systems are amazing. Adaptation. Our big brains are very helpful. opposable thumbs are really helpful. Those are all adaptations over time. But yeah, I think that's, and that's what I would hope for, for millennials is a look out into the world and see things that are bad, you kinda have to step back and go. Yeah, but what was it like, you know, 50 years ago, without a polio vaccine, or 70 years ago, without a polio vaccine? You know, that that was life changing for so many people. So that's the thing, you know, context is king, you know, where have you been? To understand where you are to see where you're going? And I think that's really helpful. I know, there's a lot of bad things, but I think, you know, and they've happened at some frequency, but yeah, like your line, you know, we're resilient. I like that. That's great.

Beatboxing Champion Pono Akiona

Pono Akina is one of the best beatboxers in the world. He creates unique sounds and songs with nothing but his voice. We talk beatboxing, winning the American Beatboxing Championships, the hardest sounds to make and taking beatboxing mainstream. Then, we countdown a special “Christmas Movie” Top 5.

Pono Akiona: 01:46

Pointless: 33:19

Top 5: 57:48

Sponsor: Go to BetterHelp.com/POINTLESS for 10% off your first month of therapy

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

https://youtube.com/@ponobeatbox (Pono Akiona YouTube)

https://www.instagram.com/ponobeatbox (Pono Akiona Instagram)

Pono Akiona Interview: Beatboxing Champion

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode beatboxing and bad Christmas movies.

Pono Akiona 0:21

It's like saying the letter K, like, you kind of say in Word

you know, it is a battle. So it kind of has that, that more aggressive, kind of head to head mentality where you can kind of call them out, you're like, Hey, bro, like, you know, that's cool, but you keep spamming the same thing, you know, like you're doing anything, and people can't see in the calendar standard, right? Don't let that discourage you, especially if you can see, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, you can understand and grasp for yourself, you should should do for you. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is one of the best beat boxers in the world. And I think the best way to introduce him is just to let you hear it

Nick VinZant 1:41

this is beatboxing champion, porno. Aki, ona I have an idea of what beatboxing is. But how do you define beatboxing? What do you consider it to be? More

Pono Akiona 1:53

or less? It's creating musical tracks with different body parts mostly like your mouth or your nose, your throat? Your tongue? Like that general region?

Nick VinZant 2:05

How did you get into this?

Pono Akiona 2:07

In 2016, I started beat boxing because I saw a video of another beat boxers name was zealous. And for some reason, that was the one that that stuck with me. Because before that, I've seen a couple of other beatbox videos. But for some reason, hearing him I really thought like wow, like, I really want to try that. I really think I could, I could do that. And from there, I remember just trying to do like the fundamental sounds. And I picked those up really quick. Like I could just do them like after hearing them. I could do the fundamentals. Those okay, maybe there's something here. And then from there, you know, I just practiced every day and I went down this rabbit hole and then it was stuck, then I could never get

Nick VinZant 2:56

no was other music like that for you? Or was it just this specifically?

Pono Akiona 3:02

Mainly this one. Before that I had some musical experience, but nothing, nothing really, you know, scratch that itch for me like, like beatboxing this.

Nick VinZant 3:14

So what kind of defines it as being music versus noise?

Pono Akiona 3:20

I would say what makes it music is the fact that you can turn into like an entire, like, a piece, you know, it's a whole track. There's like, There's rhythm to it. There's a flow there's, it's a whole it's structured, like a song. And then there's there's certain meat boxes that have even made careers out of it, where they perform for a living.

Nick VinZant 3:43

When you mentioned before, like the basic sounds, what are some of the like, the basic sounds? Could you give us examples of of those.

Pono Akiona 3:51

So the basic or fundamental sounds are your typical drum kit. So you've got like, the kick drum, right? Or the hi hat, or like a snare. So like if you put them together, just simply it's something like that.

Nick VinZant 4:18

I'm fucking shocked. I can't believe that sound comes out of your mouth. And that's a compliment, right? Like, that was so clean and clear and sounded like the instrument that you were imitating that my mouth just dropped was like holy, how the hell do you do that?

Pono Akiona 4:36

Well, for one, lots of lots of work. I practice you know, every day pretty much. But to give a quick breakdown of the those simpler sounds for your kick. You just want to It's like saying the letter B so B, B and then you push really hard with your lips. So instead of B pull out pressure Pee Pee, pee and then remove your vocals from it. So not the kick, and then your hi hat similar with the letter T. So T T

and then the last one would be the hardest one is your snare. So, for the K snare, it's like saying the letter K, like, you kind of say in Word your fundamental sounds

Nick VinZant 5:42

okay. Is it that hard to learn how to do it? Or is it maybe just me that like I have, I have no musical talent? So to me, you might as well be inventing a rocket ship, right? Like AI? Is it that hard to do? Or is it just like, man, you got it, or you kind of don't?

Pono Akiona 6:03

I think anybody can learn those. Those sounds, it might take a lot of work. Because for some people, you know, it clicks more than others, like, just like anything else, right? Words. For some people, they just, they, they, their brain understands it easier, and they're able to pick up pick it up quicker. But I believe those those beginning sounds are sounds that everybody is like physically capable of doing. Like you can, you can eventually do it with enough practice. Um, there are certain sounds that I feel like, like, you know, there's just like, some only don't like only, like, randomly just some people can just do it. And some people can't, because like, only a small number of people in the community know how to do those sounds, but I think more or less people can anybody can learn.

Nick VinZant 6:59

You can figure it out, right? Like, if you did it enough, you're eventually going to be able to do it. Is it generally kind of harder to figure out how to make the sound? Or is it harder to figure out how to Alright, make this into a musical flow?

Pono Akiona 7:15

I feel like that's, it really depends. Because some sounds will be really difficult for me to, to figure out and understand, like, to wrap my brain around it, you know, it's like, why can't I do this one specific sound, but then sometimes I'll get a sound and it's like, really, really difficult for me to do. So if it's really hard to do, it's hard to put it together into like a beat. Right? So it's, it kind of varies, but I think once you get the sound, and you just practice it enough more often you can, you can put it into a beat. But that's not always the case. You know, there's, I still have some songs that I'm not comfortable yet using in a beat because I don't feel like it's a it's a certain quality for me to put in a beat.

Nick VinZant 8:05

You mentioned before like making a sound with your nose. I don't even know how to do that. Like, what's the sound that you would make with your no

Pono Akiona 8:13

one that you would, uh, I Okay, actually, maybe, maybe, not all of them, like, are generated from your nose, but but it'll like it'll come through your nose. Like, you know, for example, like coming home. Let's just come for you notice without your mouth, right?

Nick VinZant 8:31

I never even thought about it as becoming through through my nose. I was I was coming through my mouth. I guess it is

Pono Akiona 8:40

passing through your nose very, but even even though um, it's your voice, right? So it starts. So, there's a few sounds that are like that. And then there's actually a couple of sounds that are like, through your nose. Like, you know, like, you know, when you snore, some people use that sound and a beat like, you know, like, I don't I don't really use that sound. But that's, that's a sound that people use. That comes from your nose.

Nick VinZant 9:06

There's definitely a ton of sounds that you can make, but I wouldn't say that. A lot of them are necessarily like musical or good sound like I make this weird sound with my throat itching the back of my throat and pretty much everybody who knows me in real life hates it. But like I wouldn't say that's a musical sound. Are there ones where you're like, Oh, that's a new sound like Oh, that's terrible. I can't use that at all.

Pono Akiona 9:32

Yeah, definitely. There's there's times where I'm like wow, that like it's more so like a joke you know, when I did it, I'm like, wow, that's not good. But it's kind of funny. Um, but for the most part if you like, there are a lot of sounds that are at the surface you might not think much of or might not think there's a lot of potential for but if you explored enough because sometimes you can, we can layer sounds together you can You know, combine it with the sound, the sound or, or do a, a combo of like, going from one sound to another sound. And sometimes they work better when they're when they're, you know, paired with something else or layered on something else.

Nick VinZant 10:15

So like when you got started doing this, right, like, obviously, it's cool. It's impressive. It's unique. Were you ever kind of discouraged? Because I can hear like my grandpa and my like, hey, that's really cool, Nick, maybe play guitar? Right? Was Is there ever that kind of stigma around it?

Pono Akiona 10:33

You know, for me, that wasn't something super huge. I remember, maybe started hearing that maybe not directly, but people were on when people heard about this or, you know, saw me doing it, they might have thought, or they vocally said like, wow, that's, that's kind of dumb. It's kind of silly or whatever, right? But I never had anyone directly like telling me like, you should stop. You should not do this anymore. Like something like that, right? Like that. That never really happened in my when, when I was first starting out. My parents and my family been really supportive. Because, you know, at first, I'm sure they were just like, kinda like, metaphor, like, you know, it's a kind of, it's a party trick or something, right? It's a lot of people think of me in the beginning, but what you can really do with this, and what you can really explore is a there's a lot, there's a lot to it, you know, there's the rabbit hole is very deep, and you can do a ton of things. And people just often seem to not not see that. And they just barely scratched the surface of what can be done in the public. A point of view, so if there, anyone out there, you know, you're doing anything, and people can't see in the calendar standard, right? Don't let that discourage you, especially if you can see, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel, you can you can understand it and grasp for yourself, you know, you should do it for you.

Nick VinZant 12:06

We had an Ice Climber on here one time, and he said something that always stuck with me in that regard. He was like, everybody's stupid. Everybody's crazy. Until they're not. And it's all a matter of when is it not? Right? Um, so How popular is this? Right? Like, is it going up in popularity? Is it down? Is it about the same? What would you say it is?

Pono Akiona 12:28

I think it's definitely growing. Maybe not as fast of a rate as it was a couple years ago, even. But it's it's definitely growing. And at least the interest of it not maybe not one like, like the community of the boxers. But definitely the people that support the boxing I think is getting a lot bigger, because a lot of the competitions are going viral. And a lot of posts on like Tik Tok or Instagram have viral videos of boxers, people that I know, people that I consider friends even, are blown up. And I think that's awesome, because it's getting some representation of what you know, actually is beat boxing, you know, like, yeah, one of the best crews. So like, it's four people make up this beat box crew. They did, America's Got Talent. And I think they're, like one of the top five most viewed videos on on America's Got Talent channel. And they're real beatboxes they're all like, really well respected within the community as well. So they're really like, showing what, you know, what we are really capable of, you know, instead of just, you know, putting lives whenever it's depicted, like a TV show, or like, you know, a movie or something. It's just like, kind of like, a kind of a joke, right? It's not really ever taken, like too serious.

Nick VinZant 14:01

Can it move past? I'll just say like, sick, you know, the 62nd mentality, right? We're like, Oh, that's really cool. Can I listen to a whole album of this? Do you think it can do that? Or is it kind of arts? It is what it is?

Pono Akiona 14:17

I personally do. I think it definitely can, there's, there's a lot of variety in what you can actually do with it. Because like I said, people just, you know, have been given that chance to see that, but I know, um, I know multiple people who've released albums have just beat boxing, and they've done pretty decent for themselves. And there's also certain people that that also, you know, incorporate the boxing sounds into like produced songs, you know, so that they'll sample like, a sound from beatboxing and things like that.

Nick VinZant 14:55

So correct me here, right fill in the resume. Yeah, you just won the American championships.

Pono Akiona 15:00

Yeah, the 2022 American beatbox championship. And the title specifically was for solos for the solo category. So it's just like one one versus one

Nick VinZant 15:12

array like, okay, in a competition. What are you being judged on? Like, how does that whole process work?

Pono Akiona 15:19

The first stage is the video submissions. So everybody records a two minute video, or no, one minute 30 video, and they selected the best 32 competitors to perform live, and the live competition took place in in Atlantic City. So the judges pick their top 32. And from that top 32, everybody, they all performed live. And then then from there, they they chose to top 16 to move on to the battles. The way the battles work, is they're bracketed off. So one versus 16, two versus 15. And so on.

Nick VinZant 16:01

Yeah, like a sports tournament, basically. Yeah. Yeah.

Pono Akiona 16:03

Right. And then, from there, both, you know, both, both the boxers have 2/92 rounds, and they go back and forth, each twice. So like, let's say, you know, you mean, we're battling, they flip a coin, one of us use heads or tails. Alright, you know, it's lands on heads, and I cheese, you know, to go first I go, you go, and I would go, and then you go, and then that's it, that's time to look to the judges, the judges will make their decision, you know, the vote either one way or another. Whoever has more votes goes on, that process is repeated until the final and then the final once they declare a winner. But the things they're specifically judging, there's really a lot to take into consideration. But it's like your originality, your cleanliness, how well structured it is, how cohesive how coherent everything is, like put together to make like a full like, track versus like, if it's like, a segmented and stuff doesn't really like, flow together and work together. And then there's like, objective thing. So is your timing. Good? You know, are you keeping up in time? You know, are you out of key? Things like that?

Nick VinZant 17:18

Are you playing the competition or playing the man so to speak, right? Like, are you going to do your thing? Or like, Oh, my opponent went all hi hat, I better go snare? Like, how do you approach it?

Pono Akiona 17:29

That's interesting that you bring that up? It sort of both, because for one. A lot of people including myself, they'll come to the competition prepared with set routines and set for like, sets, right? So like, the you have your songs ready. So because because that gives you the best chance of, of like performing your best, right? Because if you go and you freestyle, it's kind of a gamble, right? Like he could like, fall off, or you could, you know, just read be really like on it right there in the moment. So it's kind of up in the air. So having a set like, you know, a set you're more it's more like, solidified, you know, you've refined this over like months even. And, Bob, what you're saying, like, you know, if they do something, does that impact what you do? Sometimes it does, because you can, either, you'll, I'll pick my sets. Specifically, like who I'm going against, because, you know, that that does play a play a factor in, you know, you know, if you win or not sometimes, but in addition to that, some people also like to counter, which is when you do their beat, or sometimes you can counter like their style. And it's just basically showing, like, you know, oh, yeah, it's easy. Like, I can do it. Right. But sometimes people will do that, just to like, shut them down, especially if it's like something that they like, it's like, they're really big highlight moments, like, Oh, look at this, it's so crazy. And you're just like, I can do to like, so what you know, so it's sometimes it's some people do that sort of thing. And then there's also some, like, kind of trash talk that goes into to, you know, nothing too insane. But, you know, it is a battle. So it kind of has that, that more aggressive, kind of head to head mentality where you can kind of call them out, you're like, Hey, bro, like, you know, that's cool, but you keep spamming the same thing. You know, like, it's kind of like just calling them out on like, whatever their you know, whatever you're doing. That's, you know, what, yeah, yeah, just calling them out. Really?

Nick VinZant 19:44

That's just kind of part of the culture. Right? It's back and forth.

Pono Akiona 19:47

Yeah. Because you're going back and forth. You know, they're doing their rounds, and then you're gonna do your rounds. So you only have two rounds, so you really got to make it make it count.

Nick VinZant 19:56

Okay, but you're the American champ. Where does that kind of place in the world though, right is like is is united. You and I are both based in the States. United States like oh man, the American champ is probably better than everybody or like the Americans don't worry about them. I don't

Pono Akiona 20:12

have to be like humble about this. But I feel like in the in the comparing country to country like America's at least number two, he could make an argument for number one, but the three heaviest hitters are probably France, which is probably surprising, right? But you don't think France? France is very, like, really good. France. Us. And then a third one is kind of a debate for but I think it's South Korea. South Korea is really good.

Nick VinZant 20:47

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, what's the hardest sound to make easiest sound to make?

Pono Akiona 20:59

Artists now, let's see if I can do right now. That one's pretty hard. Cuz sometimes doesn't doesn't land to like that easy song to make? Hi Hat.

Nick VinZant 21:12

Are you always working on new ones like, Man, I got this new sound.

Pono Akiona 21:17

I'm not always because you kind of develop a kit that you're comfortable with. And then you you just go really deep into what you can do with those sounds, you know, instead of learning different sounds all the time, you're staying at, like the surface, right? It's like, if you're growing like, you know, if your roots, it's like going out versus if it's going down, right? If you just rooted in like your style?

Nick VinZant 21:41

Is it harder to to conceptualize it, right? Like how many sounds will you go through and be like, that's not it harder to come up with it are harder to do it, I guess,

Pono Akiona 21:50

probably harder to do, because I'm sorry, harder to come up with it. Because coming up with sounds is not something that's like, you know, you don't make them alive, so to speak, you don't like put on your hand. I want to make any sound right. But it's more like you accidentally kind of stumble into it or find it. You know, it's like, well, natural, or you'll hear somebody else do a sound. And you're like, Okay, that's, you know, now that's brought into the game. Right? And that's like, Okay, some people are gonna learn it, some people are not gonna learn

Nick VinZant 22:19

it is do you have a signature sound? Yeah.

Pono Akiona 22:23

It was probably the one I did earlier. Like, yeah, probably that one.

Nick VinZant 22:31

Is it? Is it an open secret? Or is it very secretive? Like how how you make those sounds?

Pono Akiona 22:38

I mean, I could tell you, but I don't know, if you didn't really understand everything. But I could, I could

Nick VinZant 22:42

like to hear the explanation just to see how much I don't understand it almost.

Pono Akiona 22:47

So the first sound, it's a it's a combination of, like, 333 layers, basically. So the first sound underneath, all of it is inward base, which is a base created by breathing in, that's why it's called an ER B. So it's like, you know, ah, ah, that's the, that's the sound. So it's like, kind of like, you breathing in and you kind of getting this this sort of, you know, vibration in your throat. But that's the first answer. Yeah. And then on top of that, it's vocalized. So, you know, if you went, you know, if you just home, right? If you do that, like inward so. So, that on top of it, so. And then on top of that, there's another sound called siren. So if you put your mouth and like kind of a V shaped like you're about to say the letter V

and then so that, again, is you're also layered on top of all those so ah yeah, that would be that sound as the name really,

Nick VinZant 24:20

but you might as well be sneaky speaking, like clinging on to me. Right? Like, breathe in, like, how to make a sound. Besides just being like, out of breath. But were you like it that were you like that at the beginning?

Pono Akiona 24:35

For me? A lot of this stuff was really like, intuitive. Like, I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean, I remember the first sound. I was like, really stumbled on was, was the sound that a guy who inspired me it was zealous he's to use it like that was like one of his main sounds and how's he doing that? Man? I remember sitting down watching the his like tutorial on it and I I got it pretty quick. So I don't know, for me, a lot of these sounds just, I'm really able to just pick it up pretty pretty quick.

Nick VinZant 25:09

Yeah, you get it or you don't, right. Like, I think you and I could sit here for hours and I'd still just be like, Okay, I can make that set. I can Whistle. Whistle, I can do that. Um, who's and if it's you, man say it's you, who's kind of the Michael Jordan LeBron James, of beat boxing.

Pono Akiona 25:31

It's, it's not me. But that's tough. And I remember actually, I was watching, I was watching a another segment that you did, where you asked that. And it was defined answer. But for beatboxing it's really tough because I don't feel like there's anybody who's had that legacy or had that, like, it's too young. You know what I mean?

Nick VinZant 26:01

Well, yeah, that makes sense, right?

Pono Akiona 26:03

It's really young words. Like, there's a lot of really, really, there's a lot of people like kind of contending that spot, but there's no one who's just like, just just has it right. There's no one that's like, like, you know, that's, like, ascended ahead of like everybody else, and they're just like, This guy's like, go for sure. Like, set in stone.

Nick VinZant 26:21

Now, can anyone make this their full time living?

Pono Akiona 26:25

Um, I think it's really difficult. Because I feel like in terms of like, the mainstream in terms of like, how, how much recognition beatboxing gets. It's, it's tough. I mean, it can be done. I know certain people who who've done it. But, and certain people we're trying, we're trying to do it currently. But it's, it's really tough. You know, like, like, I'm not trying to, like, I don't want I'm not trying to brag, right, ya know, like, like, I won the American Championship, like, you know, I want the title of like, you know, ranked number one in the US and, um, you know, I'm still not doing it. So, you know, I feel like that, that kind of speaks to something, you know,

Nick VinZant 27:15

now, will, I'll say, like, established artists, or in, you know, genres of music, will they ever contact beatboxers and be like, hey, I need you to come lay down this sound for me? Like, is it ever in the kind of music that I would hear on the Spotify top 40 or whatever?

Pono Akiona 27:33

Sometimes, sometimes, I can't remember the artists name. But I remember somebody pretty big reached out to somebody that I knew. And he did, like a he did a beat for one of their songs, but I can't remember off the top of my head. His name, but yeah, they're I mean, I think it's, it's getting there more so was maybe not the top 40. But like, you know, that certain certain certain songs that you might not expect it from for sure. We'll have it but I don't think it's there yet. I think the just the general recognition from like, you know, the media and like, the, just the public. Isn't isn't fully there yet. Because there aren't a ton of B boxes that are just, like, just performing just just be boxing, like all the time and aren't like, you know, touring, but I think it will be for sure. I think it's growing pretty rapidly. So, by the time you know, I'd say like, 10 years. Five, five to like, 10. Maybe

Nick VinZant 28:40

take this is gonna date me a little bit. Right, but I don't know if you've ever seen the guy from like, police academy. Can you Oh, yeah. Can you like mimic other sounds? Or is it mainly just around beatboxing? Right, like, you hear a car alarm and you can we can figure out how to do it or something like that.

Pono Akiona 29:00

Sort of, because I can do certain sounds that sound like other things. But they're not. Not like, with the, I can't just pick up like a you know, if you do a random sign, I can't really just, I can't I mean, I could try to like figure it out. But I could just like, you know, just like that just like, oh, I can I can do it. Right. But there's certain sounds that like, for example, this is this one that I used, like, in beats actually, but it's like, it sounds like like a bird. Like Oh. Kinda sounds like a, like a chick or something.

Nick VinZant 29:36

Yeah, it does sound like a bird. It's

Pono Akiona 29:39

but yeah, I mean, just a couple songs like that. Um, yeah. So as you know, you know, or as I stated, I don't know. I think off air, right? Yes. But that's where I was from. And I'm from boy, right. And for me, that's a really big thing that I'm super proud of, you know, because I'm also a toyon so it's something that, you know, there's not a lot of representation on top of that, right? It's like, even less like, you know, of like the Hawaiian representation, but also the Hawaiian, be boxers and be boxes from void. So for me, it's, it's really important to just like, at a state it and like represent that, you know, that's where I'm from, because I want to inspire more of the community here to, you know, get into so if there's anybody listening out there, and you're from, you know, in the front there from here, feel free to contact me, I would love to get in contact. Because I'm all about growing the scene here. I organize the state championship, and put that all together and yeah, just wanted to briefly mention that,

Nick VinZant 30:50

you know, you mentioned about forming, trying to, you know, forming a community and getting community in Hawaii going, is there a place in the United States where like, that's, that is the hub of beatboxing?

Pono Akiona 31:02

Yeah, actually, it's the East Coast. The east coast is really like, where it's at. There's they have competitions out there, like super regularly, there's just the sheer amount of people is just, there's a, there's a lot of people like, that's, that's really that's where it's at. A lot of so if you're on the East Coast, and you're beatboxer is a ton. There's a ton of you have access to a lot of things. But as far as competing, I'm not fully sure yet. I might do the World Championship. We'll see. I don't know yet.

Olympic Bobsled Pilot Christopher Spring

Racing down the track at nearly 100mph, Bobsled Olympian Christopher Spring knows that the difference between winning and crashing is measured in fractions. We talk piloting a bobsled/bobsleigh, being a 4x Olympian and sitting really close together. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Winter Sports Movies.

Christopher Spring: 01:38

Pointless: 46:42

Top 5: 01:12:36

Sponsor: Go to BetterHelp.com/POINTLESS for 10% off your first month of therapy

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

https://www.instagram.com/spring.chris (Chris Spring Instagram)

https://twitter.com/spring_chris_ (Chris Spring Twitter)

Christopher Spring: Olympic Bobsled Pilot Interview

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, bobsledding and winter movies.

Christopher Spring 0:21

This sleeds are very difficult to drive. They're finicky they, they have like personality you have to. And you're not so much driving this slide like you would drive a car, you're just trying to guide the sled down the track. But if you miss guide it, you'll end up on your head. The secret is more about timing, not so much on how much you're steering, you got to hold on and you can tell the difficulty of a track by how much noise is in the the warm up hot.

Nick VinZant 0:57

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is a four time Olympian in one of the fastest and most dangerous sports out there. It's a sport, where the difference between crashing and winning is just a fraction of an image. This is Olympian bobsledder, or Bob slay Christopher spring, how does this compare in real life? To what I see on TV? Is it anything like that? Or is the track just wildly different and faster?

Christopher Spring 1:47

I don't think TV gives it any justice, to be honest. And they're really trying these days with, like G force monitors and accelerometers inside of this slide to give the audience like some sort of feedback so that they're like, oh, like, That's how fast they're going, Oh, that's how much G force they're producing. But you know, when you watch sleds go down the track, especially like, most people just watch our sport at the Olympic Games. They'll see the slide look exactly, you know, one sled to the next, it all looks pretty similar. But the truth is, when you're when you're learning or when you go to a new track, and you don't know how to drive it. It's crazy man, people are, people are crashing, and the rounds are just not that smooth. And it takes years and years and years of experience to like get to that point where it's just like, where, where the public look at it. And they're like, well, I could do that.

Nick VinZant 2:45

It definitely like right to me looking at it from the outside. I'm like, All right. So it's four dudes, they start running, they jump in the sled and they just go down the track,

Christopher Spring 2:55

this was a very difficult to drive. That's just the easiest way to put it there. They're finicky, they, they have like a personality you have to and you know, so much driving this slide, like you would drive a car, you're just trying to guide the sled down the track, but if you miss guide it, you'll end up on your head, and it can hurt. And so I think that I think that most people, you know, they see they see the sled, you know, not making many errors, a couple of taps here, maybe a skid there. But for the most part, it looks quite easy, but But what we're actually doing in there's just these finite movements the whole way down the track to obtain that perfect block. How do you even get

Nick VinZant 3:43

to your level in the sense that it seems like something that like, you don't do it, unless you're really good at it? Like it doesn't seem like something that would be very conducive to like, alright, it's my first time and then you crash and you crash and you crash like how it doesn't seem like there's a beginner stage,

Christopher Spring 4:02

the beginner stage is wild. And excuse me, it's it's one of the few sports that actually get safer, the better you get because I look at sports like you know like your traditional sports especially here in cow like hockey or football. And when you start off playing those sports, you know, you got lots of pads on you. It's very slow the game is slowed down a lot for you. You started at a very young age, there's lots of coaches and reps on the on the field or on the ice or whatever helping you pass and all this kind of stuff, right? And the the the better you get at it the more your skills develop and in my eyes the safer the sport gets in in bossley There's no way to slow the sled down that much. And sort of when you're when you're starting to learn how to drive you. You we give you some theory or you know when I first learned Next, you know, I walked down the track with a coach, I try and memorize which way that the curves go. That way I don't get lost down the track. And then I'm trying to memorize what steers I need to do in each corner. Because the way I drive now is very based off feeling feeling of pressure in my body, the feeling of what this lead is doing. But when you're first learning, you don't have that feeling in your body. So you're just steering based on on a program that someone gives you come in at about this point in the track, you steer the slide here, you release that steer, you come around, you steer here and where you go. And so it's it's very rudimentary or very mechanical way of learning how to drive. But it really is the only way to learn until you get that feeling. And when you first start, you're just, you're just hoping that what you're learning, you're actually applying that to the track. And most times, those those first couple years, people are crashing a lot. And it hurts. And it's hard to find people to jump in the back because they're like, Oh, screw that I want to get in with the bad like, I saw what happened last time. And so yeah, it's a really difficult sport to develop in, until you get to a point where you're ready, good. And then people actually want to, to race with you and be competitive with you. That's that learning curve, it's very difficult. And we see a lot of athletes come into the sport. But it's really difficult for athletes to stay in the sport.

Nick VinZant 6:36

That makes a lot of sense, right? It's not like you can there's no bunny slopes or practice runs, it's like, right, you just gotta go,

Christopher Spring 6:44

we can start a little further down the track each each bobsled track around the world has these kind of junior stops that you can start at where you can put the sled in at like let's say, instead of instead of starting at, at the very first corner, you start down at corner four, or corner six or something like that. And then you can yield a slight goes a little bit slower and you don't get the full track. But then you graduate up the track to the top and you know where you go. But it's, it's still a very difficult sport to learn. Because it's so hard to you know, I talk to people, I've done a little coaching in my, in my career and I, you know, tell people about like when you feel the pressure in your hand. And they're like, they're looking at me, like I'm speaking a different language like, What do you mean, feel this pressure in my hand? I can't feel anything.

Nick VinZant 7:36

So when we talk about like driving a bobsled, I don't actually know what that means. Like, I have no idea what you're doing for all I know, like you're putting your hands on the ice and just like pushing it like I don't know what that actually means. Driving like, what do you how do you drive it, I have no idea.

Christopher Spring 7:56

So inside the slide, like at the very front, that's where I sit in a way I can see what's going on. I have they used to have a steering wheel actually back in the day. Yeah, just this little tiny steering wheel just like in a car, maybe people were driving down the sled like this. But they found that that, you know, if you turn left with the steering wheel, and then you needed to turn right, this takes a lot of time to like go from turning left attending right and some of the steers we have to do a very, very quick. And so they graduated from a steering wheel to two handles just like this. And basically these handles are connected to the front axle of the sled. And if you pull right, the front, runner blades will turn to the right. And if you pull left they they turn to the left and and then we can be a lot quicker on our steers to go from right to left because they're independent of each other. And we don't have to turn a wheel this way or that way. Right. And there's also some, some bungees in there that will help return the sled back return the steering back to neutral we call it or or the starting point that way we always are returning it back to go straight down the track. But we're not really like cranking stairs so much like you would in a car. If you think like we're going quite fast, right? So if you're if you're driving down the highway 120 kilometers an hour 100 or snob tracks 150 kilometers out, which is over 90 miles an hour. If you're driving down the highway at those speeds, you're not going to be you know, making some severe turns right. So it's all very kind of soft and smooth turns that we're making and the secret is more about timing, not so much on how much you're staring at But on the like the point in which you're staring in the track. And so timing is very important, more so than the amount that you're stealing,

Nick VinZant 10:08

are you anticipating the turns kind of like, okay, I need to go a little bit this way, a little bit that way.

Christopher Spring 10:15

Like I have a perfect run and every every ball sidetrack in the world have a perfect round laid out in my mind. I don't know if anyone has ever done the perfect, perfect round, ever, in a bobsled, they might think that they have. But there's always something where you could have been like, hi, you know, if I was like two more inches this way, and this corner, a little bit higher in this corner. And so what we're actually trying to do down the track is, is execute this perfect run. But the reality is, we're, we're just making corrections all the way down the track. So I'll come out of let's say, I'm here in Whistler right now. And it's the fastest track in the world. And if I come out of corner one, ideally, I want to be on the middle right hand side, going into corner to that maybe I'm like, you know, a few inches to the left. And the speed that corner two's coming out, you can't just change that in between, in between the two corners. So that's what I that's what I've given myself. And so I'm just going to make a slight correction in the entrance of two, because there was going to be a little bit more pressure, because my, my entry into the corner isn't as ideal, and hopefully I'll get back on track. But if I don't, it's no big deal, because I'm only just a little bit off. And so when I exit to maybe, you know, I ideally would like to be early into three with a sled angle pointed up into the curve, but maybe I'm a bit more parallel, so then I have to just fix it a little bit. And that's all we're doing the whole way down the track is we're looking ahead at what we've given ourselves from the last corner, and what we have to achieve in the next corner and trying to adjust as we go. And basically, it's what you're hoping for is that you don't have to adjust too much. Because every time you're steering you're, you're creating friction in the sled and slowing down the acceleration. And so the less we steer, the faster we'll go.

Nick VinZant 12:27

Just for kind of my understanding, right? Like if you didn't steer it at all, is this thing just like bouncing off the sides the whole way down?

Christopher Spring 12:34

Yeah, it's like it's sliding off of corn. It's hitting the roof. It's it's bang in the if you're skidding you're banging walls, you're gonna end up on your head, somewhere down

Nick VinZant 12:47

the track. Seems like it would really hurt.

Christopher Spring 12:51

You're not It's not allowed to when it when you crash. It's loud. And

Nick VinZant 12:59

what are you doing you crash you just like, Fuck, yeah, you hide? Hope the guy in front of you or behind you is taller, I guess.

Christopher Spring 13:08

Yeah, basically, informatics it's very difficult to hide because there's, like, if you ever get the chance to look inside a bobsled, there's not a whole lot of room. And there's some cool pictures that you can see on the internet, from, you know, Olympics or World championship races of water format slide looks like with the athletes in it from above. And it's like what crammed in there, it's just like, it's small, and there's no room. And so, you know, when I'm when I'm driving down the track, I've got my teammate behind me. And he's kind of squished up you know, behind me here and then I've got the cowling in front of me. And so if we crash, I'm just like, you know, the best I can do is go from from here to to here. And then it's not very much you know, my head is gonna get that it's gonna get hit a couple times and my shoulders gonna get get burnt maybe a little bit because there's quite a lot of friction on the on the ice and people get can get severe burns to their skin to the point where I've I know people that have had to get skin grafts from other parts of that body because that because that burnt the skin off of their, of their shoulders.

Nick VinZant 14:23

But then if you crash right as the pilot did the other three guys are they just like Way to go, man. Because it's basically what's, how does that conversation in the bobsled go after? Because it's basically it's not like the guy in the back is the reason that you crash. Like how does that conversation go?

Christopher Spring 14:40

Yeah, it's tough. It's, it's like hey, sorry, sorry, guys. But that was my mistake. You know what I mean? Like and typically, you know, at the at the level that we're at, you know, at a Olympic or world level. You're there because you you trust in your pilot you believe in, in the team and that ability of the team to win medals and, you know, shit happens, right? And sometimes you crash it's the better you get the the less you're crashing you know in the last 10 years I think I've had five crashes maybe. And so it doesn't happen very often the better you get. And you know when it when it does happen, you know, I buy the guys some beers later that week to say sorry, and but they're but they're also very trusting in me as well and they're ready to get back in the sled and encouraging me and being like, Hey, man, it was, you know, don't worry about it. You're a great driver, you've you've driven this track well, before we've won medals here, let's, let's get out there on the race and let's, you know, let's do our thing. And, and most of the time, you know, crashes are just the kind of just sneak up on you.

Nick VinZant 15:55

So how did you get started, right, like bobsled doesn't seem to be necessarily the kind of, unless you're kind of born into it like a family tradition. Like, it doesn't seem like the sport you're like, you know what? bobsledding?

Christopher Spring 16:08

Oh, yeah, 100%. And you know what, most people, I would say that, again, the 95% of people in the world aren't even thinking about bobsled at the time that they're 20 years old. They even they might not even know what a bobsled is. And yet they become Olympic and world champion some of these people. It's, it's pretty cool how the transitions happen. So for me, actually, so I was born in Australia as well. I have like kind of a weird one. I think I have like a hybrid accent. And I was living in Canada on a one year work visa. And while I was in Calgary, which is in Alberta, they hosted the 1988 Winter Olympic Games. There's a bobsled track there. And you know, I grew up in ad I was born in the 80s. And I remember this movie Cool Runnings, and I'm like, this is where this is when the movie like this is it, this is where the movie was. And so I'm like, Well, I'm gonna go to this, Bob. So check it like, go see some Cool Runnings memorabilia or something, you know, like, go just check it out. And so you know, and I was athletic, too. It wasn't like I was a guy on the couch, just like, you know, what is this? So I went there. And I was running track at the time, and just was talking to people like, hey, like, because there was a race on at the time, I didn't even know there was those people racing like Canadian championships. And I'm like, wow, this is cool. Like, what does that person do? Or what is that thing on a sled? Or, like, how does that work? And just ask him questions with people. And this one guy was like, why just learn how to drive like, you want to jump in with me. And, you know, I'm this Ozzie guy traveling around, so of course, I'm like, Heck, yeah, let's go Where do I sign up. And it kind of just all fell, fell into my lap from there. And, you know, turns out that I didn't particularly like being in the back of his sled, I wanted to learn how to drive the sled and you take what's called a driving school, where you learn like these fundamentals of how to drive a sled, basically, it's like, you have no idea what's going on, you're just sitting in this seat, and, you know, trying to make it down the track. And, yeah, kind of just, it just went from there. But I would say most people, most people get into the sport through like, a recruitment drive. I know here in Canada, we we have like an online submission that you can do if you're interested in the sport, you can submit like it's kind of like doing a combine online, you send it in and then if you have you put up some good numbers and we invite you out to do some testing and you know, kind of the ball rolls from there and it's very similar in the in the US as well. There's a few hubs that they have across the country and you can submit your your testing results online and then you know, there are some amazing athletes out there that do this and that's like, where did you come from?

Nick VinZant 19:20

They everybody looks like a running back. Is there a reason that everybody kind of looks like that?

Christopher Spring 19:26

Yeah, like we've got to get the sled moving fast and they say those three things to be successful. In the sport of bobsled, you need to push fast, drive good and have good equipment like good sled. And you know, the first part of it is pushing fast because if you if when by the time everyone jumps in the sled if if you're already in last position, you can't, you can't No matter how good your equipment is or how good of a driver you are, you just can't pick up those places. down the track, you can pick up a few spots, but definitely not from last first. And so you have to be pushing fast. The slideways Forman sled weighs 210 kilograms, so

Nick VinZant 20:14

Oh, that's under pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Spring 20:19

And so we want to get that sled moving as fast as possible. And most of the time, like a stereotypical Bob's letter is around. Yes, six foot one 225 30 pounds. And there's some exceptions. There are some guys that that are, you know, 63642 4245. And there are some smaller guys that are 510 200. And, you know, because we do have a weight limit that we have to stay under. And so you kind of juggle that with with the different guys that you have. But yeah, typically big, strong, powerful guys and girls, like the girls are incredible. The way that the sport is evolved in both men's and women's bobsled, the athleticism and both in all the athletes. It's just every year, another level gets you think that oh, there's no way people can push faster than this. And then it just keeps going up and up and up. From my

Nick VinZant 21:28

perspective, right? Like I base everything like alright, explosive power on like the 40 yard dash or the vertical leap? Like, what would what would most people be doing in those kinds of tests?

Christopher Spring 21:42

Hmm, I'm from watching NFL Combine, if you run like a four, three, or a four, four, these are like crazy numbers, right? Yeah, I would say that, that some of the best guys are running like, like four or 546. But they're also 225 to 30 pounds.

Nick VinZant 22:05

So how different are our most tracks generally the same? Or are can tracks kind of vary pretty wildly?

Christopher Spring 22:15

Yeah, there is a lot of variance to be honest, some tracks are similar. But they all have their own personality as well. When, when a track is built, there is a regulations or there's some rules that they have to build within, there has to you know, can't be too long or too short, it can't be too steep. There has to be certain amount of turns and, and certain types of turns as well. But for the most part, but those those regulations are quite open and you can make it you can make a track, like totally, totally different. So the track in Park City, Utah, is typically quite an easier track, it's still, it's still pretty fast, we'll do like 130 kilometers an hour. To get down the track, it's it's usually quite easy. Same with a track in Austria, in, in this place called eagles in Austria, it's there, those are typically like easier tracks. And then, you know, you get to a track like Lake Placid in upstate New York. And it's wild. Like that track is, like hold on, you get to the bottom after a good run. And you're beat up. The guys in the back are like, bad. I know it was a good run, but I'm feeling it back here. You know, like it's, you got to hold on and you can tell the difficulty of a track by how much noise is in the, the warm up pot at the, at the top of the track where all the athletes, just that's where we are before we go and drive outside down the track. Like all international athletes were in this one. It's like a locker room but less fancy. And we're all in there together. And if it's a difficult track, nobody's talking. It's very serious in there. There's a lot of concentration. You know, people are like, looking at each other and giving them a like, you know, like hey, all the best kind of thing. But if it's an easy track, people are joking around and people are playing games and laugh and carrying on and you know planning while they're doing this weekend and all this kind of stuff. So it's hilarious to see that the difference? You know, just in the in the stock house or in that warm up pot of how difficult to track is by the level of volume of noises up there.

Nick VinZant 24:52

What's the hardest track?

Christopher Spring 24:55

I would it depends who you ask because is practice makes perfect. So a lot of people think that the track right here in Whistler is the hardest track. For me, I don't personally think so because, you know, we train here all the time. So I'm, I'm quite used to it in saying that I still respect to the track. And there's still some of that quietness that goes on, even for me before I go down the track. But typically, there's three tracks that everyone talks about in the world that are the hottest tracks. It's here in Whistler, BC, Lake Placid, in New York, and Oldenburg. In Germany, which is in Saxony. It's like the state over there in Germany, it's in East Germany, right next to the Czech border. Those are the three most difficult tracks in the world in my eyes, and I would say and 99% of people that eyes, too, and even the break, but no, they're like, oh, man, we're going Altenburg next week.

Nick VinZant 25:58

So what are the other people in the ER, they just basically they push and then they're just hanging out, are you kind of telling them like, Hey, guys, lean left, mean, right? Or they just like I pushed now I just hold on for the rest of the

Christopher Spring 26:14

year, you got it, they push and they get in. And that's it. I don't want to dumb it down too much like that, because their job is extremely important. Pushing that sled, like I was saying, if you don't, if you don't push past, then you have no chance of being successful in the race. So we have to push fast. So their job already is, like I'm so very grateful when we when we have a fast Bush, because then it gives us as a team way more chance of success. And then getting into the sled. There's not a lot of room in there, right. So getting four big guys to get inside this sled, this tiny little sled and sit in a good aerodynamic shape is a lot harder than then you would, then you would think and practice does make perfect. But he's got to practice a lot to get in to do that. So to not only push the sled fast, but to then load with speed so that you're not slowing the sled down as you're getting into the sled. And then to sit in a position that creates, you know, this really nice aerodynamic position in the slide where everything is like, it's trailing down. So it's, it's, you know, you don't get in any of this dirty air at the back. And no one's heads higher than the person in front of them's had things like that shoulders aren't up. And it's it's a science and like the teams that do it really well. are usually the teams that are very successful as well.

Nick VinZant 27:54

So how do they decide like who gets in? Second, third, fourth? Is it just based on height?

Christopher Spring 28:01

No, not always based on height. It's usually based on your physical attributes as an athlete. So if you're, you know, the person that gets in last, has to be running the longest. So typically, they're the fastest athlete as well. Because they're the one that they're the one that is continuing to run while everyone's getting in there still running. And if they're not that fast, and they're going to be slowing the sled down, right. So typically, the bigger, stronger athletes that aren't as fast are helping get the sled moving. And like breaking that inertia, so to speak. And then getting in and the faster athletes are the ones that are getting in last.

Nick VinZant 28:46

How okay, how far is it from like, once you start to once you get into the sled?

Christopher Spring 28:54

It's roughly around 50 meters.

Nick VinZant 28:58

Give or take that's farther than I thought it was?

Christopher Spring 29:01

Yeah, it depends on how steep the track is. Right? So some, some tracks are very flat. And so you push for longer. Because you don't ever reach that speed where you're like, Well, I can't keep up anymore. And some tracks are really steep where it's like you gotta push and just get in. And so I don't know how far I run but I have this like built in head ometer in my brain that just a number pops up when I get in the sled and I know how many steps I took. And in a in a track that's really steep. informat I'm taking 12 or 14 steps. And in a track that's very flat. I'll take 20 steps. And so, you know, if you think I think when, when most sprinters run 100 meters, they're running like 45 Steps. Yeah. And so, you know, if I'm taking 20 steps, I'm probably running 40 meters, somewhere around that.

Nick VinZant 30:07

Is that how, like everybody in the sled does it right? Like just throwing out numbers. The first guy takes 12, the second guy takes 16 other guy takes two, right is like, is everybody counting like I take this many steps, then I get in,

Christopher Spring 30:21

no one's usually counting, it's it. It's based off of when the pilot gets in, basically. So if I get in, then the guy that's sitting number two behind me usually takes like, he'll see me get in, and then he'll react to that. Okay, now, on my next cycle, I'm gonna get in. And then the number three guy will be like, Oh, I saw the number two guy get in. So on my next cycle, I'm gonna get in. And then it usually is two or four steps later. So if I take 12, it's like 14 or 16 steps for the guy behind me. And then 16 or 18 for the next guy, and so on and so forth. Are you

Nick VinZant 30:57

ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, let's

Christopher Spring 31:01

do it. Let's start

Nick VinZant 31:03

with the easy one. How do you feel about Cool Runnings, his Cool Runnings, the only bobsled movie that exists?

Christopher Spring 31:10

While there's more bobsled movies are actually in the documentary. It's kind of like a bob slay lifestyle documentary. And so it's not the only Bob slay movie. But for the most part, and I can't even cringed when I said, like, Oh, I was, you know, that's how I got into sport is because I have watched Cool Runnings. It's because at times, it can devalue our sport, because the athletes that are in the sport are there so freaky. And it's crazy how, how athletic they are. And then, you know, when we get a reference towards Cool Runnings, which is a great film, and it's really brought a lot of attention to the sport and it continues to do so over the years. Sometimes it can just devalue the the level of competition that we have in the sport.

Nick VinZant 32:07

It's a love hate relationship. I get it. Yeah, um, yeah. Your favorite track your least favorite track, not that it's a bad track. Just that like, that's, that's not my cup of tea.

Christopher Spring 32:20

Pretty good track. And I think everyone will say this. It's in Switzerland, in a town called St. Moritz. And it's because that's the birthplace of our sport. That's where our sport began. That's where they first started bobsledding. So there's a lot of history there. And it's what's called a natural track. So they actually build the track out of snow and ice every single year, like a huge ice sculpture. And it has personality behind the track. It's so smooth to slide on, it's quiet. And like I said, there's so much tradition there. And it's the only natural track left in the world. And so every time we go on slide there, it's magic. I'd probably say eagles in Austria, because it's such an easy track. And if you don't push fast, you have no chance of winning. And so it kind of takes my skill out of it. My driving skill out of it, so, but the towel is beautiful. So there's a plus

Nick VinZant 33:21

favorite piece of bobsledder lingo.

Christopher Spring 33:25

Oh, there's lots of there's lots of lingo in the in the balsley world, and we have a lot we have, like our own language here in Canada that we we use a lot. And I would say that we use this word rents. We used to use it all the time. And you could just interchange it with whatever you want. Like, man, I rent to that run, as in. I was a good run for I just got rinsed on that run as in I had a bad run. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 34:02

context, right. It's all in the context.

Christopher Spring 34:04

Exactly. I don't even know how this word even came about or got involved or you know, I could be sitting at dinner I'd be like, Yo, can you rinse me one of those brownies

Nick VinZant 34:14

just applies for everything. It's contact? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Is there trash talking bobsled you ever like

Christopher Spring 34:24

the Yeah, you guys so it's all fun. And games too, though. Like there is trash talk. But it's it's all within good fun. Like we're, we're very small sport. And so we travel a lot together with all the nations we stay in the same hotels a lot of the time. And you know, at the end of the season, we're all we're all party and together to write and so there is some trash talk, but it's it's all in good in good faith and good humor.

Nick VinZant 34:49

Like what would you say to like what would be an example of bobsled trash talk?

Christopher Spring 34:58

Like what Yesterday I was on the track, helping coach a little bit. And the number one driver in the world from Germany was walking by and he says, Hey, Chris, you don't start and the World Cup race? And I said, Nah, I'm still rehabbing an injury. And he's like, Ha, you're like, vacation slider. Oh, I don't know if it's trash talk it up. But yeah, it's just

Nick VinZant 35:26

yeah, things. Worst crash.

Christopher Spring 35:30

You. Yeah, I had a really bad crash in 10 years ago, in 2012. In on this difficult track in East Germany and Altenburg, where I went through the roof of the track, like I crashed my sled and we're upside down, and we hit the roof, which is, you know, the roofs there just to keep sleds inside the track. And yeah, we hit it. And we actually, like, pierced through the roof at 120 kilometers an hour. And we kind of got stuck in the metal structure of the roof. And it like it basically, like can open the sled. And there was a, there's a lot of wood up in there and a two by four impaled me. And I'm saying this with like, like a smile on my face. Jokingly and I look at your face, and you're like, What the heck. It definitely was worse than what I'm portraying it to be. But I feel like that's the only way I can talk about it without you know, getting into the moment too much. And yeah, it was a really bad crack. And I was out for for many months. And so when my teammates and typically that never happens that that was kind of like one of those freak accidents that happen. But yeah, I was. I was impaled. I broke my nose and was impaled by a piece of wood through my butt and into my back and made a full recovery, though. And three of us out of the four in that sled. Two years later, competed at the Olympic Games. So pretty pumped about that.

Nick VinZant 37:10

Damn. Yeah. Run like then after. Like, after that. Were you? Like, holy shit. Am I gonna do this again? I'm sure 10 Yeah, I just think about talking about it. But

Christopher Spring 37:26

not particularly but but my first round back, I did it at a very easy track with my coach who jumped in the back. And it was just the two of us there on Valentine's Day, actually. And we ripped down the track and I was like, Oh, it's just like riding the bike, no problems. But definitely for four years after I, I struggled a lot with with some anxiety around it and PTSD and stuff like that. It was just things that to overcome with my coaches and support stuff. And even going back to that track, every time I go back there to races. There's always some of those feelings there. And it's always brought up to you know, and I do my best to, you know, put those feelings aside until after I'm done. But, you know, inevitably they're going to creep in. But we've had some great results on that track since then. And every time I go there, I'm really excited to race it. Because generally we do pretty well there now.

Nick VinZant 38:25

The so like what country would you say that bobsled is the biggest in Germany hands down? Anybody even close?

Christopher Spring 38:39

In terms of like tradition, maybe Switzerland. But that that that would be the over that? No, no one's close. There's the top country in the world for the last, I don't know, decades and decades and decades, has always been Germany. There. They're winning a lot of battles. There's a rich history within within the sliding sports lose skeleton and bobsled. It's very well funded. The crowds there are amazing. And there's huge supporters and fans and it's cool vibe to race there because people are into it.

Nick VinZant 39:16

Not to bring it up again. But like who's got the best chance? Because I know of the chant from Cool Runnings. Like does everybody have a chat? Or do you guys Oh, yeah.

Christopher Spring 39:26

No, people have a chat. You know, like, you know, everyone, yeah, sometimes there's like some, some slabs like this, and fist pumps, you know, like, people put their hands in and it's like 123, or whatever it is. The chant that I that I had for the last few years, is we put our hands together. And I'd say, I'd say kind of kind of quiet and say what time and then the guys would say game time, and then I'd say what time game time. And that's what that's what we would do. Um, but I would say the best chat. Actually, I saw this Austrian skeleton girl racing last week here in Whistler, and it's just her and her coach. And she like, like, punches him. I know, that slaps his head like this, and it's this little girl, she's probably like five foot five, 120 pounds or something. And he's just standing there, like, big guy, he's a Olympic silver medalist. And, you know, he's, she's like, she's kind of shaken on the block. She's like, ready to go? The lights on a screen and boom, slaps put the sled down it goes, and I'm like, Whoa, this girl is fired up.

Nick VinZant 40:47

Oh, who has the hardest time getting in the slide? Like, is there a position where like, oh, that's the hardest one.

Christopher Spring 40:55

I would say it's the pilot. You know, we have this smallest amount of room to get in there. And I think I'm pretty good at getting into Slack. Like, I pride myself on how fast I can get into Slack. But some of my teammates, you know, like, there's been a couple times where I've, like, tripped getting in or like, you know, had some trouble getting in. And they're like, Wow, it's like, watching Santa Claus trying to get down that chimney. Man. You're like, really struggling to get in there to squeeze your body into this into this sled, you know. But typically, if you if you watch like, like bobsled fails, at the start, push start. It's the guys on the side. They have the hardest time getting in and it like, it looks easy when it's done. Right? But it's not like it's really difficult to do it properly. And to do it really well.

Nick VinZant 41:52

I'll end on this one. It's kind of funny. So when you go out to eat, or you go hang out with the other guys on the team, how close do you guys sit together at restaurants like are you so used to just be in bunched up that you're all like, Oh, why are those four guys on one side of the booth? Like, oh, that's the bobsled team.

Christopher Spring 42:14

You know, I want to I want to achieve the this fairy tale going and I'll say, Yeah, we sit right next to each other. You know, we've been stripped down to make sure we're in our lycra, you know, in that span that we just sit down next to each other because we love it. We love it. We use it ourselves. And it's not unusual, like when we're in the car, you know, and if there's the back seats open, and there's only two guys sitting back there. Now we sit together. We don't sit on either side. We're gonna sit together. All four in the front, right? That's it. Yeah, we got that bench seat. We just sit.

Nick VinZant 42:57

Here comes the bobsled team. We get three teams 21 car. Man, you got a young 2024 or too early

Christopher Spring 43:07

2026. We just added games. This year did it. So we got 26 Yeah, the Summer Games in Paris. 24.

Nick VinZant 43:17

Right. That's right. Well,

Christopher Spring 43:21

yeah, I just had knee surgery in the earlier this year, just to clean up a dodgy knee I've had for many years and so just rehabbing with trying to come back and you know, make a decision next year when I'm healthy. And I would like to. I am my nickname is old man spring. Because I'm the old guy. So, you know, people are probably like, Man, when is this guy gonna retire? He's so old. But you know, I love it. And we're still successful. So why not keep going if I can just if my body can hold up? That's the biggest, biggest challenge.

Nick VinZant 44:01

That's all the questions I got me Is there anything else we missed? Or kinda what's coming up next for you?

Christopher Spring 44:08

Well, the World Cup is next week here in Whistler. And unfortunately, it's the first time I went race a World Cup at home here and like over 10 years, and you know, it'll be sad not to race but also, like needed as well. Like, I can't just keep beating my body up now. Like, I gotta give it a rest sometimes, too, right? So yeah, and then I took a coaching job here this winter, while I rehab and I'm going to be taking care of these like younger kids trying to teach them how to drive a bobsled and hopefully get them to the Youth Olympic Games next year. So that's kind of like a cool new challenge for me. Whilst also trying to fit in like my next career after sport is on my commercial pilot's license, so I'm flying a bunch and try to Trying to get hours widen. And, you know, see where that takes me as well.

Fantasy Video Creator Terra Mizu

Foxy Boxing, Mouth Tours, Tickling, Armpit Smothering: Adult Content Creator Terra Mizu creates videos for every kink imaginable. We talk fetish videos, private sessions and creating nearly 10,000 videos. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Bodies of Water.

Terra Mizu: 01:47

Pointless: 45:40

Top 5: 58:42

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

http://allmylinks.com/terramizu (Terra Mizu all links)

https://twitter.com/TerraMizu (Terra Mizu Twitter)

https://www.instagram.com/t.e.r.r.a.m.i.z.u (Terra Mizu Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@terra.mizu (Terra Mizu TikTok)

www.sessiongirls.com/terramizu (Booking website for Terra Mizu)

Terra Mizu Interview

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode wild fantasies and water bodies,

Terra Mizu 0:20

it was simple like Oh, wiggle your toes in front of the camera then you know maybe get tickled and a video and maybe pop some balloons or, you know pretend to get smothered by an armpit or you know, XYZ and then it it. It led on from there continued on. And I'm like, Well, how come you know you haven't explored this with your your wife or your partner or whatever? And they're like, Well, you know, I've had this fetish before the internet came out. So this wasn't something that I thought I was the only one. Yeah, it was like MTV Cribs but for your mouth. Yeah. And I thought foot fetish would have been that one. But it was actually mouse fetish. That was like a landslide for me. I was like, why is Why is now fetish. So popular with me.

Nick VinZant 1:04

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest works in the adult industry. And she specializes in creating clips for just about every fetish and kink that you could possibly imagine. We're going to start off talking about foxy boxing. But she creates videos for everything from balloons, and mouth tours to session wrestling. This is Tara Misu. So like I've always heard of this referred to as foxy boxing. Is that still what it's called? Or like what what is this exactly?

Terra Mizu 1:55

There's so many different terms in different categories. Foxy boxing, I suspect would be more geared towards just sexy ladies just more or less pretending to box each other. It's more just for like the sexual gratification. Most of the time, they're either topless full nude or wearing like skimpy bikinis, or shoot basically two hot girls just pretending to box each other. It's super fake. But it's not even geared towards boxing so much. It's just watching the girls just like wearing the boxing gloves and just acting all and then just kind of just going out each other.

Nick VinZant 2:30

What's the attraction of it? I guess? Why do people like

Terra Mizu 2:33

it? It usually stems from something they've seen from a movie, or a TV show, especially at a young age. Something clicks with them at a certain moment in their life, and it completely changes things for them to the point of, you know, a fetish, or a fixation. So I mean, technically I actually filmed a POB boxing just the other day I released it last week, and I was topless or not necessarily topless. I was wanting kind of like a monokini. But my boobs kept falling out of it. So I was like, Whatever, I'll go with it. But yeah, I was like, using my boxing gloves and just you know, doing kind of like a domination type video and just kind of

Nick VinZant 3:20

thing. Is there. Like when you go in there and do it. Are there certain things that people want to see for I'll use myself as an example. Like, if I'm watching something like, oh, I want to see this, I want to see that. Like, are there certain things like alright, we're making this boxing clip or this wrestling clip, like, Okay, we got to do this, we got to do that

Terra Mizu 3:42

some producers like to film the talent, going back and forth with each other, and then one person eventually wins. Some producers have an audience that just wants to see like one particular talent, always winning or always losing, always jabbing. So I guess it just depends on the scene. Also, if it's a commission video, like if a fan, you know, wants to see a certain scene, they will give us basically an outline of the video that they want. And then we perform it. So that be like a custom video, in a sense. They just want to see, it could be any which direction I'm gonna switch on screen so I can perform like dominant roles and submissive roles. So I kind of like cater to a huge audience, where most others will be one sided.

Nick VinZant 4:38

Do most people who enjoy it? Did they want to see their favorite person win or their favorite person lose?

Terra Mizu 4:44

Yes. of both.

Nick VinZant 4:48

How many of these how many clips Do you think that you've made overall?

Terra Mizu 4:52

Several 1000

Nick VinZant 4:54

I mean, that sounds like to me like holy crap that

Terra Mizu 4:57

I've been in the industry for eight years. So Well, I mean, that's just what I've created for my sites. So I've also worked with a lot of producers since the beginning of my career. So a lot. I don't think it's exceeded, like the, like, 10,000, or anything like that, but I'm pretty sure I'll probably start getting there pretty soon. I would say like, I mean, I had a strategy coming into this industry to make myself as well known as possible, as quickly as possible.

Nick VinZant 5:35

No, do you need to make close to that number amount for it to be profitable? Like, do you have to, it's not like somebody can make one a week and make this their full time living.

Terra Mizu 5:48

So as a content creator, I mean, you yourself would understand this too, that the more you put out, the more you will be seen. So if you only put out like one video a week, and you're just starting out, nobody's gonna know you. Nobody's going to know anything about you. If you're like I started, I was putting out a new video every other day for like, a couple of years. I'm brand new content. And then I broke up my content into different sites based on certain niches, and starting to focus on those niches and building more content for those niches as well as my like, my main site, which is kind of like my catch all, like multi fetish site,

Nick VinZant 6:30

when when you film the boxing or the wrestling, is it just those two things? Are their sexual acts involved in it? Like how far do you yourself or to other people usually go?

Terra Mizu 6:42

For me, usually starts out with the fetish, boxing, wrestling, whatever, it could either end that way. So it could just strictly be just the fetish. Or we could lead it on to something else. I've done clips, both ways. I've done a video. I've done several videos before with somebody in the past for a different producer long time ago, but I just like, came to my head. They did, they had a shoot a clip, it was me and this other girl, I can't remember who was wrestling, we're doing the scene. And then the loser had to get humped at the end. So it was kind of like a we did several clips. So it was like the one girl won. And then I won. And then it was kind of like a I think she won a second time or something like that. But at the very end because we made this like deal. The very beginning of the wrestling scene, it was like, you know, Whoever loses has to get, you know, humiliated and hoped. I'm like, Okay, so let's just say I was the one that lost. So I lose the match. I tap out or I call mercy or whatever. And then she gets behind me and just started drawing humping me and I'm like, oh, no, please don't do I'm so humiliated. You know, like doing the acting and everything. And then she's like, behind me grinding on me and everything like that. But you know, after we cut, we're just like, Okay, next clip.

Nick VinZant 8:00

Right. It's a job. It's a job. Um, do other people go farther?

Terra Mizu 8:06

Yeah, we're, yeah, no, don't go go full explicit. I mean, they'll do hardcore scenes, things like that. There's sex wrestling. There's a producer in in the Northeast that does that. I work with him, but I don't do that type of content. So he and I usually just stick to just fantasy wrestling type scenes where we're fully clothed. And when I say fully clothed, I mean like bikini. He's wearing shorts. Yeah, yeah. But he also specializes in like oil rustling type stuff, too. So we'll shine up. So it like we glisten in the light kind of thing. And it looks a little bit more sensual than it actually is.

Nick VinZant 8:46

How come you haven't decided to go that route? That's just your personal the money's not worth it. Or like,

Terra Mizu 8:54

it's, it's personal. Um, I've learned in this industry that you don't have to even take off your clothes to make money. So I don't really shoot explicit content. It's just a personal preference. I just don't want that type of content out there of me. I have done simulated like a slight stuff that makes it seem like I'm doing something in that regard. But nothing explicit where there's penetration, or any kind of like, open like type content. It's just not for me, I'm not a sexy person. I'm a goofball.

Nick VinZant 9:34

How did you get into it?

Terra Mizu 9:37

Um, so after I moved back to Florida, my best friend, she's been in the industry since she was 18. She just retired this year, she saw that I was struggling in my current job, which was like, dead end, restaurant job kind of thing. I really wanted to move forward with my career and that and nobody was giving me the opportunity. So It was kind of like a side hustle at first. And fortunately, because she's been in the industry for so long, she introduced me to the right people. By that, I mean people who have a really good reputation. People who have a huge following, I really didn't know what I was doing. So they kind of just helped me along the way. And from there, I got references to more reputable producers and other talent that I could work alongside. And that's kind of how it all kick started.

Nick VinZant 10:34

The word that, like I heard a couple of times that jumps out to me is like reputable, like, are some of the do you have to be very careful of who you're working with? Yes. There are there, you know, either horror stories for you, so to speak, or for other people.

Terra Mizu 10:48

Yes. Not so many horror stories for me, but I've heard a lot from other people. Because they were not as fortunate to have the support system that I had, getting started in this industry. I honestly didn't even know this industry really existed until my best friend mentioned it to me. So I was just kind of like, okay, like, it was just kind of simple. At first, it was simple, like, oh, wiggle your toes in front of the camera, then, you know, maybe get tickled and a video and maybe pop some balloons or, you know, pretend to get smothered by an armpit or, you know, XYZ and then it it, it led on from there, I continued on into more fetishes. And then I started to see where my limits started to get hit with, you know, as far as sexuality and things like that. And then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna pull back these, these particular things are not from me, but these things are. So I'll keep going in this direction and go with that. But even so, you come across a lot of people in this industry that are not reputable. There's a lot of producers in this industry that have started off as FANBOYS. That one to two, you know, they want to they want to get in this industry to they want to dip in and get that dollar get that bag, which is fine. But everybody has to do you know, their ground work and learn. And they can't just jump in with their cell phone and say, Hey, I'm a producer, or I'm an aspiring producer, I want to take photos of you, you know, I'm gonna make you so much money. It's like, where's your following? Where's you know, how many? How much talent? Have you worked with prior to this? Anybody that I know, you know, it's IQ? Yeah. I've come across quite a few of those at the beginning of my career, I didn't know any better. I've been put into some questionable positions because of that.

Nick VinZant 12:54

When you're working with somebody, like how does that work? You they pay you a flat rate? Or is it based on the sales? Or, like, what is that? Usually

Terra Mizu 13:03

I don't, I don't work off of the royalties or the residuals of other sites, if they offer it to me that's on them. But I really, I can't keep up with all that stuff. I've worked with too many producers to try to, you know, chime in on their business and be like, Oh, how many clips Did you sell of me kind of thing. It's not worth it to me. We either do flat rate or hourly kind of gigs, depending on, you know, if it's, if they need to shoot so many scenes, or, you know, whatever, it's, yeah, it's just dependent on all that. So like, Yeah, I'll either charge per scene or I'll charge per hour, depending on what the content is,

Nick VinZant 13:42

you know, what they're doing to it and right, like, is that enter into your mind?

Terra Mizu 13:50

Do you hire me, it's worked for me. But I understand the Fetish enough to where I'm obviously making them want to do that. Because there's like, if we get into the session part of this conversation, I have clients who reach out to me, and they'll want a particular fantasy fulfilled, and they enjoy it so much more with me as a provider versus just getting a going to a strip club, or something like that. Because then they I've heard so many stories about clients that have told me Well, I wanted a strip club and we're gonna go off subject of boxing, we're just going to use feet, for example, because that's a common one is a common one for strip clubs. And then they'll, you know, they'll go into the private room for a dance, but then instead, they'll be like, you know, kind of rub your feet or, you know, can I, you know, stuck on your toes or something like that. And, and the performers are like, grossed out by it. Like they don't, they're like, why can't I just, you know, go grind on you and just call the day. Because they don't understand our industry.

Nick VinZant 15:05

So a session is that's in person like the person is there, right? How often do you do those?

Terra Mizu 15:13

A lot? And actually going on tour next week, I'm going to the northeast and I, for the third time this year.

Nick VinZant 15:24

Oh, gosh, is it? Is it hard to find people, it's easy to find people like I'm putting out these dates. Here I come,

Terra Mizu 15:34

they find man. I mean, I put myself out on certain websites, provider websites, or I go into certain forums, depending on the Fetish that I want to be known for. And I let people know, I just make myself a little mini ad, and put it out into the ether and the Internet and just say, Hey, come on, come into these cities, on these dates. If you're interested, hit me up. And, you know, put on my email, and people hit me up, and we negotiate. And if it works out, cool, if it doesn't, whatever.

Nick VinZant 16:12

I'm always fascinated too much by logistics. So it's like, well, where do you meet them? Like, how do you know? Do you just meet them in a hotel room? Like, do you have a

Terra Mizu 16:22

so you might as I usually do more upscale apartment type locations, I try to otherwise they would be more nicer hotels. It's my location, I host it. If sometimes I'll go to a dungeon depending on like the type of session that they want. And if you know the dungeon has certain type of equipment that I just can't cart around in my suitcase.

Nick VinZant 16:51

When you do a session like what kind of particular fetish or kink or whatever word I'm supposed to be using? Like what are they generally requesting?

Terra Mizu 17:00

Um, I do a variety. I do specialize in wrestling like fantasy wrestling sessions, I do foot fetish sessions, tickling sessions. I do some impact, like spanking or ballbusting. None of this is nude. There is no sexual activity in my sessions. I have no preference for it. Nor do I want to break the law. Um,

Unknown Speaker 17:30

what else do I do face sitting?

Terra Mizu 17:33

People do like some interesting things.

Nick VinZant 17:35

People like look, whatever. However, my personal opinion is as long as you're not hurting somebody against their will, whatever you want to do me and I don't give a shit.

Terra Mizu 17:44

Yeah, I mean, even if it if it was, if it was at will, I would still not go to the fullest extent that I could, because I'm still not trying to send people to the hospital.

Nick VinZant 17:58

Yeah, that wouldn't make sense, right? Did they get hurt? Do you like intentionally hurt people. And that came out in a certain way that like, look if that's what they want.

Terra Mizu 18:08

Now, because people don't realize their limits, they don't really take the time to learn them unless they've done so many years worth of sessions prior to meeting me. But most of the clients I have are newbies, they've never done a session before. They don't know what to expect. But they have it in their brains after watching so much content that they think they can handle it, but they can't. So I usually have my sessions are more lighthearted. Fun, and you'll give them a little bit of a sting, but nothing that they you know, they can still walk out of my room and one piece.

Nick VinZant 18:46

What are you usually doing to them?

Terra Mizu 18:51

I mean, if it's a wrestling, I'll just put them in a variety of like, wrestling holds. Kind of like, I like to do a lot of roleplay that kind of carries an entire hour of a session with me. Because otherwise, it's like, I could just perform the moves. And then that's it. And then it's like, okay, well, all right, that only took seven minutes. And we still got the rest of this hour. What do you want to do now? I don't want to be like that. So I'm just like, hey, let's do a roleplay scenario, do you want to be you know, Batman, and I'd be The Joker and you know, I'm gonna beat you up and you just you can't get one over me and I just defeat you or, you know, like something fun like that I kind of incorporate some fun stuff into my, my scenes. Or they have a fantasy that they've, you know, wanted to fulfill or something that happened to them early on in life that they want to reenact. And, you know, I also take the time to talk to them and just get to know them a little bit better because not like, granted most of these people how have similar fetishes but they're all just tweaked just a little bit differently.

Nick VinZant 20:05

So for like, alright, a private session, like, how much do you charge?

Terra Mizu 20:10

How much do I charge? Um, well, there's so many different rates. Well, not for me, I have a standard rate of 400 an hour, but some people will charge way less, some people will charge way more, it just depends on their preference. But for me, it's just, I feel like 400 is a standard rate for somebody who has been doing this for as long as I have. I've been doing sessions now for a little over four years. And I mean, yeah, just because they're, they're getting the novelty of me. And these aren't my fetishes. But I understand them to where I'm going to give them you know, an outlet, a safe space to explore their fantasies and their kinks, and things like that. Or, you know, they could take that $400 and spend it on a dinner, and a movie with somebody they don't know. And maybe weeks down the road or months down the road, they may secretly sneak it into one of their little play times. And then the other partner is just like, Oh, I'm not really into that. And then I'd be like, Oh, wow, time and money wasted. That sucks.

Nick VinZant 21:30

My assumption would be that that person would be doing something during that session, or like,

Terra Mizu 21:35

I don't allow that. Some people do some people allow the, you know, the release, or, you know, self service or full service. And I know no shade on on those providers. That's just not for me, I, I have done sessions with enough law enforcement to know what is and what isn't. Okay.

Nick VinZant 22:02

That's a great way to answer that question. Right?

Terra Mizu 22:07

And it's just personal preference. It just kind of goes beyond the boundaries of my personal relationship.

Nick VinZant 22:12

Is there a typical client that does the in person stuff like, right, like, I know that if I get a request, it's probably going to be a man or a woman of this age? Like, is there a typicality? That's not a word, but your typical is

Terra Mizu 22:27

male. I've never had a session with a female. And as far as age goes, I've had it is. is, like, early 20s. To is I've actually just had somebody recently, that's 85 years old. That just reached out to me.

Nick VinZant 22:49

I feel like that was his law. He like he's been waiting this whole life.

Terra Mizu 22:52

No, he's been doing this for a while.

Nick VinZant 22:55

I felt like a sweet old man.

Terra Mizu 22:57

There's people in this world that like, they've had their fetishes before the internet. Oh, yeah, I think they have been probably they have been, you know, finding their kinks through magazines, artwork, television.

Nick VinZant 23:16

The internet is an amazing place. I think that every man or woman listening to this has gone down like a Pornhub hole before, right? They like I did not know that existed. Yeah, it's interesting to see those things. I'm sure you.

Terra Mizu 23:31

Yeah. So like some of my older clients that have that I've seen. They've told me, you know, obviously, I come across a lot of clients that are that are either transparent with their partners or not, depending on their age, primarily, mostly because of their age. And I'm like, Well, how come? You know, you haven't explored this with your, your wife or your partner or whatever. And they're like, Well, you know, I've had this fetish before the internet came out. So this wasn't something that I thought I was the only one. I get that a lot.

Nick VinZant 24:05

So before the interview, like I went through your clip store, right? Like, Yeah, you like, man? I didn't know a lot of that stuff existed.

Terra Mizu 24:16

Oh, you went to my main site?

Nick VinZant 24:18

I'm not sure. Okay. So my main site, search. Sorry, I talked over you.

Terra Mizu 24:24

That's okay. My main site is terrorist temptations.

Nick VinZant 24:28

There's like there was things so how many fetishes do you is that is that the right word? Or should I be using King? Okay, you know, which ones? How many different ones do you do? Because I was looking I was like, Oh, my, I had there's a lot and a lot of things that like, Okay, I've never heard of that before.

Terra Mizu 24:49

I just so many, um, and I'm sure that there's still more out there that I've not done or that I don't know about. So especially when somebody reaches out to me either for a custom video or a session or something, they told me to give them like a laundry list of things that I'm willing to do. And I'm like, No, I'm not willing to do that. Because if you have a particular kink that I don't even know about, and I don't list it, then that's, that's lost opportunity for me to engage with you. So, I'm always like, open book, you know, you tell me what you like. And I'll let you know if it's something I'm willing to do no shade.

Nick VinZant 25:27

Right? Yeah, everybody's got something. If you were to kind of make a list, like how many what you do this, this, this, this, this and this,

Terra Mizu 25:35

embarrass naked female is one of my top selling videos.

Nick VinZant 25:41

Do you in that room? You're so you, you're doing

Terra Mizu 25:44

you're just I do it and that.

Nick VinZant 25:48

But who's embarrassed? You're embarrassed? You're like, how does it work? Okay.

Terra Mizu 25:53

It's mainly because I don't do bottomless for any other producer. It's a personal preference, I am not actually embarrassed. About my bottom half, I'm very insecure, I feel like that's different. So I am able to control what gets shot at what angles. Whereas if I were to shoot for another producer, they won't care what I look like down there, they are getting the content. And at that point, I'm signing away my rights for them to ever, like take it down if I ever wanted to, because that just one work. So I I'd rather have more control over that. So because of that. I only have E and F content of myself on my sites. There is one other producer that has some, but not, but it's very restricted of the type of content that I shot with him because he was the very first one that encouraged me to do it. And then from there, he you know, what's that? Oh, embarrassing female. Okay, okay. Yeah. And then from there, he encouraged me to help me start doing it myself. And then then I just started just becoming exclusive to my site with that content, because it saw how well it sold for me. But it's just because I'm exclusive. So all my sales show a reflect that. Another type of fetish that I excel well in is kind of busting.

Nick VinZant 27:29

kicking people in the crotch, right? Yeah.

Terra Mizu 27:31

So as I was telling you, yeah, as I mentioned to you before we started the podcast. My Mo is basically Jack asked me to Whose Line Is It Anyway, so I kind of like just do random funny stuff. That'll be it.

Nick VinZant 27:54

The other ones Okay. The other ones I saw was mouth viewing.

Terra Mizu 27:59

Oh, mouth fetish. I have a full website for that. I don't know if that was the one that you saw, then.

Nick VinZant 28:06

I don't like I tried to, like be aware, but not really look, because I feel like for me personally, like, people can do whatever they want. But I feel like I'm crossing a line. Like if I'm staring at you and then talking to you. Right like that. That then

Terra Mizu 28:23

it's all good. It's all good. I mean, cuz I'm just doing I'm performing a role.

Nick VinZant 28:30

That's the way to look at it.

Terra Mizu 28:31

So you know, like, you see me like, in front of a camera performing a role. It's not who I am as a person. It's just me just acting out that fantasy for the sake of you know, producing content for $1 amount.

Nick VinZant 28:47

So the mouth stuff is it looks like you're basically just showing your mouth.

Terra Mizu 28:52

Yeah, it was like MTV Cribs but for your mouth. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 28:55

that is what's the Why would somebody be attracted to that?

Terra Mizu 29:02

I think it's like an oral fixation

Nick VinZant 29:07

Oh, I did have a girlfriend with an oral fixation. Now it makes sense. Right? Okay. But

Terra Mizu 29:19

well, I created a whole niche store on that because when I first started my clip store my main one I was trying to I took the first six months to try to figure out okay what content sells the most for me because I know if I'm do a focus store that that'll help bring more income in and I thought foot fetish would have been that one but it was actually mouth fetish that was like a landslide for me. I was like, why is Why is now fetish so popular with me. I do know also, it's because I have a larger mouth like I can stretch my mouth to be really wide and you can See everything like if I get a light in there the right angle you can see down my throat and I now even go as far as I use an endoscope camera so I can have like a little, like long cord and whole thing. Yeah, and you can do extreme close ups now, and I can get as far back as seeing my epiglottis

Nick VinZant 30:20

I don't know what that. Okay, so

Terra Mizu 30:22

an epiglottis looks like a whale penis. It's basically just past your tongue. You can't see it like just looking at like through a regular camera. You have to listen. Okay.

Nick VinZant 30:35

Hi, there. Now I got a Google whale penis. Thanks. Why are you looking up whale peanuts? Well, it looks like internet provider. It's just like. Okay, so we got en F mouth. The word that I can't say busting?

Terra Mizu 31:00

Yes, you can. It's fine. I can't depends on the context. It depends on the context. If you're calling someone a cunt, that's different from saying cut busting.

Nick VinZant 31:11

No, I was like, when I was young. I remember a friend of mine was really mad at his then girlfriend and said that word and everybody was like, oh my god, like I was like new? Nope. Not saying it. Um, are there any other ones that we would say like, Okay, that one? Well, that's a that's a popular one.

Terra Mizu 31:33

Um, bondage is a popular one. It's kind of like a damsel in distress, where the female gets tied up and helpless. And that can go any which direction it could be any kind of scenario could be super heroine. A themed, like hero gets tied up and helpless. It could be like, girl next door gets tied up and helpless. Like she's being robbed. There's so many different ways of doing this. Um,

Nick VinZant 31:58

that's a traditional one, though. I feel like Right. Yeah, those additional being relative, right? Like, yeah, yeah, um,

Terra Mizu 32:06

because also, you gotta think back as far back as before the internet, think of comics, think of artwork, or things that you've seen on TV? Like, they had that type of stuff on there, too. So now it's being fetishized?

Nick VinZant 32:23

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Tear your most frequent request,

Unknown Speaker 32:29

I'm most pre going quest. Ah,

Terra Mizu 32:35

in terms of video or sessions, let's do both. In terms of sessions tickling.

Nick VinZant 32:41

I really like to be tickled to be honest with you, I just had that moment.

Terra Mizu 32:45

That's actually my favorite type of session. It is. And I'm a switch. So I love to receive and I love to give.

Nick VinZant 32:54

Is that weird, though, right? Like that you've got not weird and judging people, but in like, hey, this person that maybe I've never met is now tickling me all over the place? Or is that just like me, and it's Tuesday,

Terra Mizu 33:06

ah, kind of both. It depends on if I can establish a connection with them. And that's usually why like, in my sessions, I kind of like try to have some time some downtime to talk to them and get to know them a little bit more, so that I can kind of establish a little something with them. Otherwise, yeah, it is kind of creepy. And I could see that, right. I've, I've had a session once before, where a client made it very clear that he was only trying to get his money's worth out of this. And I was like, because I kept trying to like, like, at the beginning of every session, I like sit down, kind of just calm their nerves because, you know, novelty of me, and I'm just like, I'm just a regular person. But you know, obviously, I get you know, I'm an internet personality. But hey, let's talk for a second and like, figure out, like, tell me more about what you like, tell me more about, like, how you how you develop this and you know, so it's kind of like doctor patient kind of thing. Yeah. And then, you know, they'll open up to me, and I'm like, okay, cool. So, you know, we'll kind of like segue into it from there. And at least I established something with them, and then we'll kind of do a little bit of play, and then we'll take a break and then you know, I'll talk to him a little bit more and calm their nerves a little bit more and we get into it a little bit more depending on like, be one sided tickling or switch or whatever. And then at the end of it, it's it's fun, you know, like, I have a good time they have a good time. But yeah, like I had that one session. I was like, wow, you know, like, you don't want to get to know me at all, bro. Like, go tickle someone else then. Or go fine. How know like, yikes, it's just hard. Like I just was cringing the entire time.

Nick VinZant 34:50

Yeah, not judging people. Most interesting requests, like whoa, that was a little different. I had not experienced that one before.

Unknown Speaker 35:00

Oh god I've gone through so many Oh waters

Terra Mizu 35:05

like I'm completely like desensitized by most things already. I can't. One time I was I was trying webcaming out at one point. And someone asked me to rub a piece of paper on my chest. Just like I was just like, yeah, just just like just one here. So I immediately had to sync it up with ASMR.

Nick VinZant 35:32

That makes sense. Yeah. I think the Yeah,

Terra Mizu 35:35

yeah. You want to be topless. Just rubbing paper on my chest because he wanted to hear the crinkly noise. I'm like, Okay. i At first I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I like I have to, like, figure out what they're like, they may give me the request. And then I have to like, put two and two together and be like, Okay, what fetish is this? So that I know how to perform. Because if I'm just doing it randomly, I may be really awkward about it and not seem like I'm interested. And it's just like, it's not that I'm not interested. It's just I don't understand. And I need to understand in order to be able to perform the role.

Nick VinZant 36:12

That makes sense, right. Like, I think that a lot of times if you can understand why somebody is attracted to something, it does kind of make sense. In this in that regard, um, fetish or kink, you have no interest in fetish or kink that you like, oh, yeah, that is kind of your jam.

Terra Mizu 36:33

Um, I don't personally have any real kinks or, well, I mean, not that I'm willing to disclose. But as far as what I'm not into, I'm not into anything illegal. Or anything involving toilet fetish.

Nick VinZant 36:53

Boys toilet fetish. How do you know? No,

Terra Mizu 36:56

toilet fetish?

Nick VinZant 36:59

Like, scooping?

Unknown Speaker 37:01

Yeah, that's what somebody takes a dump on you or farts in your face or piece on you.

Nick VinZant 37:08

Oh, I thought it was actually involving, like, just sitting on the toilet.

Unknown Speaker 37:11

That too.

Nick VinZant 37:14

I don't have a sense of smell. So quite honestly, I wouldn't have that much of a problem. People farting in my face. Right? I could. I could be the single greatest producer of people farting in my face. That I miss my true calling. Yeah. Made but

Terra Mizu 37:35

I have tried other fetishes that I realized that I was that they weren't for me. But at least I can say I tried them. A addl

Nick VinZant 37:45

okay, I didn't hear what you said. But I want to try to guess. A beat. As balls. Take looking

Terra Mizu 38:00

what is a BDL adult baby diaper?

Nick VinZant 38:05

Oh, I said oh, like oh, yeah, yeah, so I saw that last week. Um,

Terra Mizu 38:12

there's like, age regression. Mixed in with that. Um, I don't, I don't throw shade. Like if they want to do it. That's cool. It's just not for me. I don't want to perform any kind of roles like that. I've actually just recently stopped in the last year stop doing anything leaning towards taboo roles or any kind of age play roles before I didn't really care so much because I was thinking in my head I'm like, this is a fantasy. This is not real. This is just an act. And I've realized that it's it it gives off a certain kind of I don't really know how to explain it. But it's it's encouraging certain types of behaviors that a lot of like non industry don't I don't want to say don't approve of and I'm trying not to fig make this seem like I'm King shaming in any way shape or form. It's just I'm personally uncomfortable with it.

Nick VinZant 39:22

of performers in your industry who's has the best like name, like stage name, stage name. A lot of like, oh, that's a good one.

Terra Mizu 39:38

I don't want to be for myself, but I really liked my stage name.

Nick VinZant 39:43

But isn't it Tara Mizzou, but yours is different than the desert, right? Tara? Meizu? Is that how you actually pronounce the desert?

Terra Mizu 39:52

No, Tiramisu is how you pronounce the desert. It's a play on words. If you break up the name tariffs Latin for Earth and Meizu is Japanese for water.

Nick VinZant 40:06

Ah, I didn't know that. I just assumed you liked that this is

Terra Mizu 40:13

actually a fun fact. It's not my favorite dessert. Grambling is.

Nick VinZant 40:18

You could have been crumble lay? Well, no. That's going to be my name for my new fart website. Yeah, Mr. Mr. Krim, Boulais Wow, let people

Terra Mizu 40:32

hey, you know, you can make anything work honestly, if you just believe that if you just believe,

Nick VinZant 40:38

you know, on kind of like a serious note, right. Like some of the things that you that we've talked about are kind of like, maybe not the things that a lot of people are familiar with. Are people. Ashamed of them?

Terra Mizu 40:52

The older crowd is usually

Nick VinZant 40:56

that's kind of sad. Right? It's like, it's

Terra Mizu 41:00

unfortunate, but you know, like, it's the generation. You know, like, like I said, before the internet came out. A lot of this was hush

Nick VinZant 41:09

hush. Yeah, that's true. So

Terra Mizu 41:13

they couldn't be transparent with their partners. And they couldn't be open about, you know, anything. Because they felt like they were the only ones. Now that we have the internet, like, some of the older crowd has been coming out about it, and being open and which is great and everything. And then the younger generations are all like, transparent as fuck, are just like, oh, everything's decked out.

Nick VinZant 41:46

Do people get into the industry? And then like, regret it?

Terra Mizu 41:49

Yes. Like, how

Nick VinZant 41:51

common would that be?

Terra Mizu 41:52

It just depends on. I mean, I have seen people come and go in this industry and come back again, it's almost like, I mean, sex work in general, a lot of people do it for the money, a lot of people do, because a side hustle. Then there's people like me, who turn it into a full blown career, and, you know, try to make a living out of it full time. But other people are just trying, you know, it's almost like, you know, stripping during college kind of thing. They're just trying to make their money and get out. Of this point, I don't try to encourage anybody to get into this industry anymore. I used to, I used to be like, Oh my god, so amazing. Like, you know, like, we have this whole amazing community, and everybody's, like, super open and super cool, and everything like that, but I wasn't thinking so much about their futures. Because, like, I wasn't necessarily just trying to think about, like, oh, how can I profit off of this person, but it was just kind of like a, I like to be, you know, including people and that's just the type of person I am. But now I'm just like, this may affect their life, like, all their entire life, and I may not be a part of that, you know, their entire life. So, um, you know, as much as I would love for them to be a part of this industry, like, the rest of the world is not as accepting of that. So, um, every time someone reaches out to me, it's just like, I'm gonna get into the industry. And I'm like, Okay, well, please understand, you know, the consequences that come with this, because there's a lot of them in terms of, like, you know, what type of work you're going to be doing in the future? Is this going to be your full time job, you know, are you going to be able to sustain it? Because this is also a very difficult industry to be in, it's very cutthroat we, it's oversaturated at this point, we are also mixed in with normal content creators that are trying to do anything to be you know, to try to get a hook and you know, get people to join they're only fans now at this point. So it seems like everyone's getting and all the fans now. Yeah, so or the type of job that they already have. I've had people in high profile jobs are saying like, Oh, well, I want to be in your videos. I'm like, you work for the military bro. Can't do that. Like how is that gonna work? Or, you know, like, you're if you're a teacher, if you're in politics or in law enforcement or you know, any kind of high profile job like that or anything basically in politics, law enforcement or kids involved. Automatically, it's a no,

Nick VinZant 44:40

is that's really all the questions. I mean, we pretty much covered everything. Is there anything else you think we missed or anything else that works for you?

Terra Mizu 44:48

Let's go on next for me. Going on tour next week. I'm gonna go the north east. It's going to be amazing. I'm traveling with one of my normal tag team partners. She goes by Megan Jones. She also an amazing session provider and now I producer. And we're just going to hit up all them states and work, work work, and I'm going to go home, enjoy the holidays and start all over the beginning of the new year.

Football Hooligan Expert Geoff Pearson

Geoff Pearson doesn't just research Football Hooligans, he became one. Studying the culture surrounding Football related violence by infiltrating the notorious groups. We talk Football Hooliganism, the most violent Firms, Police mistakes and why after decades of decline, Football Hooliganism is rising again. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Team Names.

Professor Geoff Pearson: 01:51

Pointless: 37:30

Top 5: 1:00:05

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://twitter.com/geoff_pearson (Professor Geoff Pearson Twitter)

Football Hooligan Researcher Professor Geoff Pearson: Interview

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode football hooligans and terrible team names,

Professor Geoff Pearson 0:22

vandalism, disorder, antisocial behavior, rioting in stadiums, mass disorder, more serious organized gang violence, the fighting that the firms do is only a very small part of what I'm about the method that I chose to investigate football crowd behavior than football crowd regulation was to go covertly. But yeah, the vast bulk of major football disorder. So those sort of major riots that we see from time to time, almost always caused by a breakdown in crowd management. Okay, the police have done something wrong.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for all of your support. So our first guest researches football slash soccer violence and football hooligans all over the world. But he does this research in a unique way, by infiltrating these groups. And Matt has really left him with a unique perspective on why this is happening, who's doing it, and why this football related violence is suddenly on the rise again, this is Professor Jeff Pearson. The term that I always hear is football soccer hooligan. Does that still apply? Or is that kind of like a medium term that was come up with

Professor Geoff Pearson 1:59

I mean, it's it's a term that was created by the media in some time around the late 1950s. And is increasingly or was increasingly then used pretty much across the world to the third to lots of different types of misbehavior by football fans. So it could refer to vandalism, disorder, antisocial behavior, rioting in stadiums, mass disorder, more serious organized gang violence between different groups of crowds. So it was always a very imprecise label

Nick VinZant 2:36

is a hooligan the same as a firm? Or is that something different?

Professor Geoff Pearson 2:41

So a firm is a term that's used to refer to a gang of fans of a particular team that gather together with the intention of engaging in violence, usually against a rival firm supporting a different team. So if you define a hooligan as being somebody you could define hooligan, as being somebody that was a member of a of a firm, and a firm would be made up of hooligans, if you'd be using the term in that way.

Nick VinZant 3:14

Kind of sounds like a hooligan is somebody that might just be making trouble. A firm is someone that's there deliberately to cause trouble, and to go after the other team or the other teams fans, is that a fair assessment or not quite?

Professor Geoff Pearson 3:29

Well, I mean, a firm is a group. And it's a group that have the intention of confronting a rival group of say mine, so they're not just going to go after other fans of other of another team. They are looking specifically to confront a rival firm, it's all about reputation. And ultimately, if you're a firm that attacks ordinary fans have another team, your reputation is damaged, it's not enhance.

Nick VinZant 3:59

Where did this kind of all start from? Is there is there a point where you can point to and say, Okay, this is where we have the modern, quote, unquote hooligan slash firm like where did this come from?

Professor Geoff Pearson 4:11

It's really difficult to to answer that question. I mean, ultimately, we there has been violence and disorder associated with live football matches since the birth of the professional game in the 19th century. All the types of misbehavior that are reported, you can find back in newspapers going back to the to the 19th century. So the types of misbehavior have always been there. People have always been fans have always been fighting with each other at that football on occasion. The type of organized football violence that we see between groups, we tend to think of when that developed as being in the 1980s in particular, when we started to move away A from the mass disorder that we saw, particularly in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s. The 1980s, in contrast to seeing as being the birth of the firms, when smaller groups looked to engage in more, I guess, precise violence against the specific type of other fans rather than that sort of mass disorder, vandalism, antisocial behavior that would previously seen, but there would have always been groups of fans looking to fight rival groups of fans going back from the birth of the games, it wasn't like there was a start point.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Was there a reason it kind of picked up in the 1980s? Or was this just kind of a cultural thing that just happened?

Professor Geoff Pearson 5:48

Nobody knows. Is the answer when anybody tells you that they do know is lying, because there's a number of different factors in play. One of those factors is that the if we look at the increase in football disorder in Europe, in the in the late 1950s, through to the 1960s, what we're seeing is the baby boomer generation, combined with the fact that people started having weekends. So the weekend, entertainment culture started to appear, we started to see disorder from teenagers on that baby boomer generation that was associated with football, but also with music. So we have a multitude of lockers, for example, fashion, we have a teddy boys. So all this hype of, of misbehavior started really with that generation. What happened in the 1980s is, of course, these people have grown up a bit, they've got a bit more money, they're a little bit less interested in smashing up railway carriages, for example. It's both defeated. But for some of them, they got the excitement of the fighting at football. And actually, they wanted to continue that without the other stuff. So I think one explanation for what happened is that essentially, those people grew up, a lot of them would stop being engaged in that kind of lower level, misbehavior. But those that hung around wanted to retain the violent aspects of it. Another explanation is that the police just got better at preventing that kind of mass violence became more difficult to engage in that kind of mass disorder because stadium started to be redeveloped. Football policing operation started to change, and firms started to be sent to prison for relatively minor incidents of violence. So ultimately, if you wanted to have a fighter football, you had to be a little bit more organized. If your day wasn't going to be moving.

Nick VinZant 7:45

Here in the States, we have organized crime, right? Did the firm's rise to that level of organized crime? Or is it not quite there?

Professor Geoff Pearson 7:55

When we talk about organized football violence, we generally talk about groups that gather together before the match, and I'm talking about in the UK, talking about groups that gather together before the match with the intention that they may get involved in violence, on the way to all the way from the match. And they'll put themselves this group in positions where that violence may occur. So for example, they will they will take over a pub of a rival firms challenge, or they will watch it to march past that rival firms pub. And it may be that they even send a text message to basically say, Oh, we've just arrived walking up your street. So there may be that level of organization. But in the UK, that tends to be where it stops. We don't tend to get fans that will say, Look, we're going to have a fight on this car park at this time on this day. And of course, the fans could the you know, the firms could do that if they wanted. And in other countries, particularly in Eastern Europe, they do that quite regularly. So they will say Well hang on a minute with Vladimir Spartak Moscow. We want to have a fight with the firm of Lokomotiv Moscow. We're going to fight on a non match day in this carpark at midnight, because we know the police aren't going to do that. If you really were interested in fighting, that's what you do. And that's what some of the Eastern European firms do. In the UK. It's exceptionally rare that you would see that really, really bad.

Nick VinZant 9:26

Kind of sounds like the difference between starting trouble and looking for trouble.

Professor Geoff Pearson 9:30

Yes, I think that's I think that's a good assessment.

Nick VinZant 9:33

Well, how does like the scene in the United Kingdom compared to other parts of Europe is UK the most organized and violent or like where were the different areas kind of rank on the scale?

Professor Geoff Pearson 9:47

So the UK got the reputation as being the home of football hooliganism in the in the 1970s and 1980s. Prior to that, it had always been assumed that it was is the Latin Americans, Southern Europeans that were the real Firebrand. So actually, UK, fans were incredibly civilized, then sort of in the 70s and 80s, it was the UK that got that reputation. It's not been the case that the UK is a home of hooliganism, or that UK football fans are more violent than other fans for a long time now, certainly not for any point this century. And now much more serious. Violence takes place in Eastern Europe, in Central Europe, in southern Europe. So you know, Poland, Hungary, Russia, Belgium, Holland, Italy, increasingly France, or have much more serious problems in the UK. When we

Nick VinZant 10:49

talk about like the level of violence, are we talking about just people throwing hands? Weapons involved? How bad does it get what's normal

Professor Geoff Pearson 10:59

to general it generally, it tends to be fists and feet, things that come to hand rather than going with knives or with battens? You know, there are, if you go to Italy, for example, knives have always been more of a part of that cultural culture than you have elsewhere in Europe. And there were particular forms of essential punishment by knives that were designed to be non fatal, but humiliating, that were utilized in the in the 1980s, and 1990s, particularly by some Italian Ultra groups, but generally it is hands and feet because generally, football fans don't want to kill other football fans, not least because you get sent to prison for it.

Nick VinZant 11:50

I guess, what's the point?

Professor Geoff Pearson 11:52

What's the point in in engagement in in football violence? Well, there's a number of different explanations, there isn't one simple explanation, because ultimately, people even people that engage in football violence, don't engage in football violence all the time, every match. That's the first thing to understand the vast bulk of matches take place perfectly peacefully. So you will have groups that want to engage in violence simply because they enjoy what it delivers to them personally. And that may be a psychological buzz, or it may be social currency may be individual reputation in their locality or in their fan group. Or it may be that they feel that that is the way that they need to represent their locality or represent their particular club. So there are individual reasons why people engage in that. But yeah, the vast bulk of major football disorder. So those sort of major riots that we see from time to time, almost always caused by a breakdown in crowd management. Okay, so the police have done something wrong, we've made a mistake or the crowd security at the stadium have done something wrong. And that has essentially caused a minor incidents of disorder or violence to exacerbate, which draws in fans who didn't have that predisposition to violence that weren't there to fight, but suddenly feel like they are under attack. But yeah, the vast bulk of major football disorder. So those sort of major riots that we see from time to time, and almost always caused by a breakdown in crowd management. Okay, so the police have done something wrong, they've made a mistake or the crowd security at the stadium have done something wrong. And that has essentially caused a minor incidents of disorder or violence to exacerbate, which draws in fans who didn't have that predisposition to violence that weren't there to fight, but suddenly feel like they are under attack, and then it is justified for them to fight back. And that's obviously major incidences of disorder occur. The little football firms themselves that have that predisposition, don't usually have the power to cause riots.

Nick VinZant 14:16

They don't want to put words in your mouth necessarily, but I believe the phrase there was like, okay, so if the police have essentially made a mistake, and that is what kind of turns a minor incident into a major one. What are those mistakes that they usually make?

Professor Geoff Pearson 14:31

Typically, those mistakes involve not engaging with the crowd, while it is peaceful. So if you've got a peaceful crowd, particularly if they are drinking, or the crowd management theory tells us that that is the time that police officers should be talking to the crowd and engaging with the crowd, assessing the mood of the crowd assessing where potential dangers occur, and looking to protect that crowd from attacks from outside the That's an opportunity for the police force and the police officers to basically gain legitimacy among those trials to try and be seen as facilitating their legitimate objectives. And what that means is that if problems occur later in the day, those police officers have come and see, to be able to say to the fans, you stopped doing that? Or can you please move in this direction? Okay, because they've gained that level of trust in the scene as being legitimate. So the first mistake that a lot of forces make is not being proactive and not engaging in what we call dialogue policing. The second problem, which leads to disorder caused by police is when the police use coercive force in an indiscriminate and disproportionate manner, which basically means that people that haven't done anything wrong, suddenly find themselves being pushed around being baton charge, being in a cloud of tear gas, and they've done nothing wrong. And then those fans, some of them may respond, for example, by throwing a bottle of beer that they're drinking back at the police. So those are the two first there's a failure to do something. And secondly, there is doing something indiscriminately and disproportionately, and those two factors of poor policing map into each other. Because if you aren't engaged in the crowd, and you don't have that intelligence and that legitimacy in the crowd, then it's much more likely that you are going to see an overwhelming response that is disproportionate coercive and violence as being legitimate

Nick VinZant 16:39

under reaction and then overreaction. So how did now Now how did you start studying this?

Professor Geoff Pearson 16:47

I was so I was always interested in in football crowds, I always found them fascinating. I love the noise that a crowd made. I love the way that crowds moved. I love the surges that you had on football, terraces, going back from being a kid in the in the 1980s. So I always wanted to do something, which kept me engaged in football crowds, and I wanted to learn more about them. And football hooliganism was seen as being a major social issue around the late 1980s. But at the same time, fans were seen as legitimate targets from the police. And I felt that was unfair. And then we saw what happened at Hillsborough in 1989, when 97 football fans were essentially killed by poor policing. And I felt it was something that I wanted to try and change if I could. So I did I did a PhD in the in the mid 1990s. Looking at how the law and policing and football crowds interacted and what were the best methods for successfully regulating football crowds.

Nick VinZant 17:52

But you observed from the inside, right, the you were in were you in a firm or

Professor Geoff Pearson 17:59

so I the method that I chose to investigate football crowd behavior than football craft regulation was to go covertly undercover inside football crowds, wherever new issues occurred. I wouldn't go as far as to say I infiltrated a firm because ultimately, when I started off with fans of Blackpool football club and then started following England abroad, there wasn't a firm to infiltrate. The disorder that we were seeing was disorder that was largely the result of breakdowns in in public order and safety management. So it's very spontaneous disorder that was occurring. So while I was in those crowds, and fans didn't know I was research, and the police certainly didn't know I was a researcher. I wouldn't I would never go as far as saying I infiltrated organized football firms because because that's what I didn't do.

Nick VinZant 19:03

What was that kind of experience like?

Professor Geoff Pearson 19:07

Well, it was it was it was fascinating. It was exciting. Yes, occasionally, scary, but mostly the disorder and violence that you saw was brief. There were not many people involved. It was fairly easy to stick stay away from the biggest danger, personally was always posed by the police, particularly away from the UK when I went to places like Italy or France with English football teams. We were subjected to very aggressive, violent policing. That was always the the biggest risk and where they felt the most uncomfortable.

Nick VinZant 19:50

Now did you have to kind of do anything to be a part of that crowd or just kind of go along with the crowd?

Professor Geoff Pearson 19:57

Mostly, I could just hang around In the crowd and act as they did, which was almost always in a non violent manner. There were occasions during my early research where they had to commit very minor criminal offenses, which are talked about and published about, for example, running on a football pitch, which is a criminal offence in the UK, or being drunk inside a football stadium. And if I didn't do that, then I would basically be excluded from the group I was, I was researching. But mostly, you know, the, the amount of the amount of actual fights I ended up in, and the amount of times I actually had to throw a punch in self defense was you and I could count on, on the fingers of one hand in 25 years of doing this work.

Nick VinZant 20:50

As a person, you know, who lives in the United States, the thing that I guess I struggle to kind of understand about it, right? Is it? Like, how bad is it? I guess, I mean, are people going to the matches, and they're just like, Oh, you got to watch out, I hope nothing happened. Or is this really kind of an isolated thing that happens amongst small certain groups,

Professor Geoff Pearson 21:13

it's the latter is pretty much something you need to look for. Certainly domestically, if you go to your average Premier League game in England, you're merely really unlucky if you see a violence incidents. And likewise, people that do want to get involved in fights, actually, it's quite difficult to go and look for that violence and define violence and and these spend a lot of their time they the firm's that are active, just being marched around by the football police in in England, who genuinely have good control of those small groups that are looking to engage in environments. So incidents do occur. But, you know, quite unlucky if you if you find yourself involved, and generally you know, where to avoid, and what behaviors to avoid doing. If you want to avoid

Nick VinZant 22:14

I'm a big numbers person and say, on a scale of one to 10, if one is the most peaceful community of happy fans that you could imagine, and 10 is the 1980s. Like, where do you think we are currently on that scale?

Professor Geoff Pearson 22:29

Well, maybe three.

Nick VinZant 22:32

That's like, that's not going to happen to you. But you knew, you know that you have to be aware that it is there.

Professor Geoff Pearson 22:38

Yeah. And I think they put it in is to put it in its context. I think pre lockdown we were to. So the has been on a post lockdown increase.

Nick VinZant 22:48

Do you think that does that mean that? Is that a trend where we're going to be going back up? Or is that kind of just like, alright, the pandemic is lifting for the most part, at least socially, in terms of social gathering? And this is a temporary thing, or do you think, okay, we're ramping back up here.

Professor Geoff Pearson 23:07

So I think it's a if we keep doing what we've been doing, particularly talking from the UK here, if we keep doing what we're doing in terms of good crowd management, I think it's just a blip. I think the self regulation and self policing longfeng groups will re establish itself. And I think the good football policing operations will also establish themselves and things will can't go. The risk is that it's seen by the authorities as being a trend. And it's seen that the previous things we were doing weren't working. And that therefore we need to up the stakes in terms of, for example, the number of police officers, the aggression of those police officers. And if we do that, then the risk is that you're going to make the situation worse. So it has the potential to get worse, I don't think we will ever go back to where we were in the 1970s or 1980s. Because I think things are just so much better now in terms of stadium infrastructure, legal infrastructure and expertise of police officers. But there is a risk that some police forces will essentially panic. And they'll make things worse, good football policing operations. I think we'll get this under control. And actually, there's all at the moment, there's evidence that things are already starting to come under control.

Nick VinZant 24:33

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Are Yes, when we look at football firms, who's kind of has the most dangerous reputation now, who was always the one that who's kind of like the, the most of all time, I guess?

Professor Geoff Pearson 24:51

Um, well, I mean, look you if Millwall play in a high risk match, they will always be In a group of people that I fight, every time there were there were an a way group that if confronted, you know, some of them will always fight back. And that has always been the case. It's established in the, in the culture there, the very cohesive unit. But I wouldn't want people to think that no, we're a team that went and attack people, because they don't, but you know, Millwall always have that reputation. Then you have fan groups that always take large numbers of fans that make themselves heard, and pose very serious crowd management challenges, should we say, and then that you would include Leeds United, and Manchester United, always. And then you've got groups in between, you know, I mean, Birmingham have always had a bit of a reputation. Aston Villa pose cloud management problems, when they when the when the attend. So there's, there's there's quite, there's quite a lot of all of the Premier League clubs, probably with the exception of Liverpool have a affirm of some sort. But they tend to be quite small, and tend to cause problems frequently.

Nick VinZant 26:27

If there was one that you would say, like, of all time, like, oh,

they were they were a problem.

Professor Geoff Pearson 26:34

I mean, in the in the 1970s, you would always say it was Manchester United, that were that were the were the worst team in terms of crowds disorder in the 1980s. You might say, well, perhaps it was Chelsea or West Ham. And more recently, you might say it's, it's some of those more smaller firms like, like Milwaukee that caused more problems. So there hasn't been a single one that has always been up there at the top.

Nick VinZant 27:05

Is it usually worse when you're talking about violence when a UK team is playing the UK team, or when Country X is playing country? Why?

Professor Geoff Pearson 27:16

As it as a general rule, it's always worth worth domestically. Because these are because when problems occur domestically, those two teams may be playing each other for months down the line, or that time next season. So you have that historical rivalry that develops. So if, for example, you have a situation where the firm gets it wrong, and attacks a group of innocent supporters of a rival team, then you've got to worry about what retribution there will be for that later on. Whereas, of course, when teams from different countries play each other, they may not play each other again for another 30 years. So as a general rule, it tends to be domestic live will be is that cause a lot of copies?

Nick VinZant 28:01

Is there a sense of reputation amongst the firm's themselves?

Professor Geoff Pearson 28:07

Yeah, I mean, reputation is really important. And it's not just reputation between the firm's its reputation between the team supporters, because even if you don't want if you if you travel regularly away from home, particularly if you're a young male, actually, a lot of the spotters that we speak to have a pride in their firm being active and having a good reputation, even if they are completely non violent individuals themselves. So the reputation matters beyond just the individual firms. But ultimately, particularly in the UK, you uno, the actual levels of interpersonal violence and organized violence are very low. And if you're the firm that's going up against another firm, and you've taken an absolute battering, it's equally likely that actually, you're not going to show up every weekend, because you don't want another kick. It's a bit different when we moved to sort of Eastern Europe and sort of these stones are more organized, more serious, more cohesive, and generally bigger, then you might get that, you know, the retribution aspects. But the easy answer to that question is reputation is very important and maintaining your reputation, if you can, is important, but if you can't realistically maintain your reputation, fans generally are members of them don't go in for an absolute kicking

Nick VinZant 29:26

if they can help. So people like fans do take a certain pride in it even if they're not participate. Yeah,

Professor Geoff Pearson 29:33

absolutely. And, and football fans will chant songs about football violence, even though they've never been involved in it themselves.

Nick VinZant 29:42

What's the song about football violence?

Professor Geoff Pearson 29:45

So for example, Manchester United fans will sing a song which goes we fought in France we fought in Spain, we fought in the Sun we fought in the main we took the cup and Chelsea too but what we like most is kicking a blow by blew them in Manchester City for these fans singing it have never kicked a Manchester City fan in the head. And that's what the city

Nick VinZant 30:07

everybody just wants to be part of something at the end of the day, right? You just want to you just want to say you were there to do any of the firms engage in organized crime outside of football.

Professor Geoff Pearson 30:21

I think it's more the case that people that are involved in organized crime away from football may also be involved in the essentially if you're if you're a juggler with absolutely loads of money to spare, then traveling around around the world, watching your team is something you might want to spend your match on. If you're particularly violent individual, you know, the chances are you can get involved in a scrapper game at some point. So, so there are overlaps between organized crime, and the firm's. And if we go to again, Southern and Eastern Europe and South America, you tend to see a lot of overlaps between things like drug dealing, and those and those firms and also corruption and local authorities and local governments. So there are those overlaps. But it's not the case that it's like the firm's read out into other types of misbehavior. It was more the other way around that involvement in football violence is something that that overlaps with can be an outcome of the other form of criminality and corruption.

Nick VinZant 31:34

That makes sense, right? I guess if like I was involved in narcotics or robbery or burglary, being a part of a firm would be a pretty easy hobby.

Professor Geoff Pearson 31:43

And it's an it's an It's social, good social currency as well, if you have a reputation of being a hard football hooligan. Okay, that helps you out. In, you know, if you're, if you're selling, you're buying drugs off somebody, it means that they're much less likely to cross you. If you need to get into a certain nightclub. And you've got a reputation as fighting football, again, it's much more likely to be helpful. We don't We shouldn't look at this as being mindless violence, it is sometimes very, very valuable for those people that need to use physical force in the course of criminal activities.

Nick VinZant 32:18

Now, did you get a reputation when you were infiltrating?

Professor Geoff Pearson 32:23

No, very, very, very brief and completely undeserved one, but you know what I was, I was, I was 21 when I started this and I couldn't fight my way out of the paper sack.

Nick VinZant 32:36

Best Movie about this culture.

Professor Geoff Pearson 32:40

That's an easy, that's a very easy question. The best movie about football violence is ID with Reese Dinsdale, because the because that's the only movie that gets the camaraderie and the humor about football violence, that actually the fighting that the firm's do is only a very small part of what they're about. It's about the camaraderie it's about the expression of identity. It's about representing your locality. And it's about humor funny things happening. An ID is the only film that nails that

Nick VinZant 33:21

which one makes your eye twitch like absolutely Oh god,

Professor Geoff Pearson 33:24

I can't I can't watch most I can't I mean green streets. I mean yeah, I mean, the idea that what's his face the hobbit from the Lord of the Rings would be involved in that kind of activity Elijah Woods it is just laughable

Nick VinZant 33:43

at what I guess what about it? What makes it so because he's not a big physically imposing person? Or what what makes it kind of like no

Professor Geoff Pearson 33:52

Yeah, I mean, the fact that there's nothing to suggest he's is capable of fighting and there's there's nothing to suggest that he's actually connected with what the firm's are doing and as I say, That's why ideas such as I mentioned a better Phil it explains ID why people might get involved in the fight, which you know, those films like retreat just just never did. It was just such an abstract concept. Whereas actually, when you go to the football even if you don't want to fight yourself, you can see why people would want to and why would people get involved in it?

Nick VinZant 34:32

What do you think of like the World Cup? Is the World Cup usually a place for this or like No, no really?

Professor Geoff Pearson 34:38

Dark pay the firm's never travel as firms to will welcome so the Italian Ultras don't go the the hooligans in Belgium and Holland don't go. The some of the English lads will go but they won't go to fight. They won't go either to fight with each other or to fight the police or the local groups. Occasionally, there has been the sort of the European football championships, for example, in Marseille in 2016. But generally the World Cups, you don't tend to get that violence disorder occurs, it tends to be because the police have messed up, usually involving England farms. But it's not an occasion where the firm's look to fight. The won't be any organized violence in Qatar.

Fire Knife Dancer Lopati Leaso

Lopati Leaso is one of the best Fire Knife Dancers in the World. But that title comes with a cost. Three years ago he was injured so badly doctors told him he would never perform again. We talk Fire Knife Dancing, performing with a warrior’s spirit and representing Samoan culture. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Ad Jingles.

Lopati Leaso: 01:39ish

Pointless: 34:42ish

Top 5: 05:20ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.instagram.com/lopati_leaso (Lopati Leaso Instagram)

Lopati Leaso: Fire Knife Dancer

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, fire knife dancing, and the best ad jingles.

Lopati Leaso 0:21

As a mindset when I'm on stage, I don't even look at it as a stage, I look at it as a battlefield. And the audience is the enemy, my fate whole face caught on fire. And I was left with like, third and second degree burns like all over the place, I look at the knife as a dance partner. And both you have to work equally, to create something. It's not just the knife, just dancing. It's not just you just dancing, it's both you that's dancing, that works in harmony, you're not just holding the knife, you're holding the country of Saudi oil in your hands, and how you represent it.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it really helps out the show. If you're a new listener, thanks so much for joining us. If you're a longtime listener, we really appreciate the support. So our first guest is one of the best fire knife dancers in the world. But that is a title that has come at a cost. Because just a few years ago, he was injured so badly. Doctors told him he should never perform again. This is fire knife dancer, low potty Leon so when I first look at this, it looks dangerous. Is it dangerous? Oh,

Lopati Leaso 1:43

yes. I used to post my injuries all the time. Now as a bragging, right, but it's just like just another day at the office type of thing. But uh, back in 2019 and February was probably like my worst accident ever. And that's my fate whole face caught on fire. Now I was left with like, third and second degree burns like all over the place in my on my lips in my nose, my ears, my fingers are all messed up. Everything else has been like burns here burns, air cuts here. Really nothing broken hand and stuff like that.

Nick VinZant 2:22

So it's not even one of those things that like, it looks dangerous. But in reality, like it's not really dangerous. This is like, Oh, you really got to know what you're doing.

Lopati Leaso 2:32

It's no, it's extremely dangerous. Even just practicing just normal. I've had injuries, just doing that with fractured fingers and stuff. Because the thing we're spinning, it's not like a torture baton or anything. It's an actual blade at the end. That's a knife,

Nick VinZant 2:51

kind of starting at the beginning. Right? Like how did you get into this?

Lopati Leaso 2:56

It was a something my parents just kind of threw me in when I was little. I was kind of just that that little brother watching his sister do her hula classes and stuff just sitting there all bored and stuff being a drag along and they kind of just gave me something to do and said like, there's a thing called fire knife dancing and stuff. And maybe you can learn how to do it. And so I was teaching myself how to do it because I was given to I'm gonna sound really old right now. Have a tape for a VCR?

Nick VinZant 3:27

Oh, yeah, like a VHS tape. Yes. VHS. VHS? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's back in the day where you don't even remember what they're called anymore, right? No.

Lopati Leaso 3:37

But yeah, I was given a videotape of the one of the biggest luau shows in lay called the Polish culture center at the night show. And I was just trying to mimic the guy on the videotape. But I finally got to teach her when I was about 12 years old, in Buena Park, in Los, California, and I started from scratch from there and kind of just went on from there. And I was learning from my teacher. Uncle Mailloux fall from the age of 13 to 16.

Nick VinZant 4:16

Isn't that hard of a thing to master where it takes that many years to really get good at it?

Lopati Leaso 4:21

It really depends on the person I believe. And there's some that are just gifted that they can just pick it up like that and those of people I'm just like, Get out of my face. It took me years to learn how to do that. But it really does depend on the person but it takes a lot of heart and dedication and years to perfect it and it doesn't matter how professional you get or how great you get you you will always get hurt

Nick VinZant 4:54

for people who are maybe familiar what is this? Basically like when fired how Did you define fire knife dancing,

Lopati Leaso 5:02

just to give a little background on what this is this fire knife dancing comes from the islands of Samoa. And back in the olden days, this was a war club made out of wood carved from a tree. And it was a war club. So when people went into battle with different villages, they use the war club to destroy their opponents. And at the end was a hook hook shape. And the reason for that was to just kind of like, cut them wherever they can get and whatnot, and, you know, grab their legs and pull it using this war club. And what they used to do is they used to walk back to their villages, with the heads hanging from the hook of the enemies that they just destroyed. And they go back to their villages, and do this thing called the Isla, which is spinning twirling of the knife or the war club. And the way they were dancing with their war club, they're NIFA OT is how they would demonstrate how they won their battles, versus today how we, we still want that same mindset when we dance on the stage. But we're also entertaining as well with traditional and modern movements, and just as what we dance with. So this is the hook. This is what modern looks like. This is when metal was introduced to the islands. Back in the olden days, this was a wooden, big, fat wooden club with a hook on the end. But this is metal. And this is what we use today to spin. So they use this hook to grab their enemies wherever they can hang the heads on the hook and walk back to the villages and dance with them to celebrate, and to demonstrate how they won their battle.

Nick VinZant 6:55

So the for people who are maybe just listening to the only audio version of it, it basically looks like a long wooden spoon with a fish hook on the end. I mean to kind of just create a mental picture, I guess. So then the knife part is really just that hook. Right?

Lopati Leaso 7:11

Yeah, that's the only knife part of the other arc. And we call it the buttoned. And that's this end right here that's also on fire. But yeah, it's a big, long handle with a big blade knife at the end. Because we used to carve these out of machetes. So that

Nick VinZant 7:29

was a traditional weapon, but they would just use the hook part why? Why wasn't the rest of it like?

Lopati Leaso 7:35

Well, the other part, we're used to to smack over somebody's head, the hook was just used to just get like get a grip on somebody.

Nick VinZant 7:43

So when did they decide to start lighting it on fire?

Lopati Leaso 7:47

So kind of fast forwarding for things. All the violence and war stopped between islands when Christianity came around, and was introduced the island. And it took a man named Freddy literally, from American sophomore who came over to the US in San Francisco. And he got the idea back in 1946. He got the idea when he saw a baton twirler and a Hindu fire river or eater at a talent show. Because back in those days in the 1940s they were just spending just a knife no fire just the blade itself and show how dangerous it was and whatnot. But he got the idea from watching these other acts and so that I believe it was that night that he decided to just grab towel, whatever fuel he can find and attach it to his knife and light it up and and the rest is history pretty much if you can

Nick VinZant 8:49

show me that again. Like Like, how are you keeping it on fire? Like how does it How does it work? What is what is it made out of?

Lopati Leaso 8:56

So a lot of people use different things, some use towels. Some use Cavalia. This is what we call soundboard, oddly enough, and you can get this at Home Depot or Lowe's. Depending what your case is for for hardware stores. And there's wire right here that we wired in. And this is we cut it to this shape to our liking to match the

Nick VinZant 9:18

blade. And the other end is kind of

Lopati Leaso 9:22

it's it's out of the same material. We just cut it differently into certain circles become donuts.

Nick VinZant 9:27

Is this still a mainstay in a lot of cultures?

Lopati Leaso 9:31

Oh yeah. Because of the men Friday literally deliver to the family. This has gone I think probably even more than they expected to where it's in The Lion King Show in Orlando, Florida on the animal kingdom. It's in circus Olay it's it's been in commercials and stuff like that. I've I've had the honor and privilege to share it with the world as well with you With TV shows and the news and stuff like documentaries, so this has been passed around

Nick VinZant 10:08

a lot. Is it a dance? Is it a performance? Is it a martial art? Like what what kind of category would it fit into? I guess

Lopati Leaso 10:17

I would say all the above because it's a martial arts and it is a dance. It's a war dance to

Nick VinZant 10:25

the thing that like look I'm not familiar intimately with with this threat, but it necessarily like I always think of the haka, or the is it hockey haka? Yes. Yes, haka. Okay. The problem is, I've been watching, I don't know if you know what one piece is, but I've been watching one piece, and it's hockey. And so I'm, I'm always like, Oh, wait, no, wait. So now does that does this go along with the haka, are those two completely different things.

Lopati Leaso 10:51

So those are for two different islands. Far enough dancing is from someone. And then haka is from Aotearoa, New Zealand. But it's, in a way, it's kind of the same, it is award dance, and haka was originally used to do to terminate their opponents to show Hey, this is what we're going to do to you. This is how we're going to destroy you. And if they brought fear into their opponent, the battle would not actually happen. But haka back then was to express warfare and what they were going to do to their opponent, and how they were going to defeat them.

Nick VinZant 11:27

Were you any good before you gotta teach her? Are we like,

Lopati Leaso 11:31

good, good in my eyes? In my mom's eyes.

That sounds like a real life. No. Right? Like, no, it's, it's, it's a soft, no. Well, I was improving.

It was in the latter stages of my journey.

Nick VinZant 11:54

So then, like, what is it? Are there certain moves that you do? Or is it just kind of, you're just expressing yourself how you express yourself.

Lopati Leaso 12:05

Um, we do have set routines. For those of us that want routines, there's people that freestyle, but when you intern like competition stuff, we all have set routines there, there's certain moves that are that you have to do that are required when you compete and whatnot. And that's pretty much the just the traditional stuff, the traditional moves, old school moves from the Oh, geez, back in the day, and how you dance and body language with your stopping of the fee, getting real loud and stuff like that showing that warrior spirit, when you're on stage, as you are in a battle. So for me personally, as a mindset, when I'm on stage, I don't even look at it as a stage, I look at it as a battlefield. And the audience is the enemy. And my best way is to get that showmanship and warrior spirit out to bring this character alive. And in a way it is expressing myself through joy, and love and passion for what I do. And like, hey, this I'm here. I'm going to I'm about to show you guys how much I love and respect this dance

Nick VinZant 13:15

that some of the like the traditional moves going

Lopati Leaso 13:17

around the neck and stuff like that, spinning it under the legs over the wrist tossing and catching it behind the back, you know, just along with body language and motion because I look at the knife as a dance partner and both you have to work equally to create something it's not just the knifes just dancing it's not just you just dancing it's both of you that's dancing that works in harmony. So when you're moving with you have to move with the blade to create the illusion to make even the most simplest moves look very difficult and like that wow factor.

Nick VinZant 13:55

Is it physically demanding like what what do you need to be good at it? I guess what makes you good at it?

Lopati Leaso 14:04

I would say it is it takes it does take a lot endurance and cardio for sure. You need to be healthy because if you're not that healthy and you're spinning this thing at lightning speed, your hearts gonna be pumping like crazy and stuff and where you feel like you're gonna have a heart attack or something.

Nick VinZant 14:19

I would imagine coordination is fairly like are you fairly coordinated person? Like more than other people?

Lopati Leaso 14:26

I would say so but sometimes I'm not too coordinated. It's the weirdest thing like I can I have balanced but then I don't at times at the most random times I don't have good balance. But yeah, I'm pretty coordinated i It has given me good reflexes stuff and I can see like stuff in the corner of my eyes, let alone I don't really have the best vision but side vision I have because there's some times we have to toss and catch it where we're spinning to at the same time where our focus is on this angle, but we haven't I overhear that spinning too. So we have to have that aside visions know when to catch it. I was 14 years old. Back in 2006, I competed in my first competition in Anaheim.

Nick VinZant 15:11

Did you do well right away? Or was it a real struggle?

Lopati Leaso 15:14

I did well in my eyes. I mean, it was my first competition and I was competing against kids that were doing it like when they were in diapers. Like, right when they came out of the womb, they were already given like a stick and knife to play with. I was a late bloomer, late

Nick VinZant 15:33

bloomer. But when, when would you say that you like, Oh, I'm, I'm really, when did you figure out that like, Oh, I'm really good at this,

Lopati Leaso 15:40

I would probably say when people started actually noticing it. Because I'm not someone myself. And so get receiving that respect from the main people, the Samoan culture and stuff like that. It really kind of like hey, like, I'm actually good enough to get the respect and to be noticed and be recognized. To actually be treated as one of them and to be adopted by the culture to where I end up adopting the culture

Nick VinZant 16:11

as you go going kind of through the competitions was the fact that like, you weren't Samoan did that ever hold you back to people kind of like oh, well this guy's he's one of us, so to speak.

Lopati Leaso 16:24

You you I mean, I don't want to talk bad about some someone people but I'd say around the world anywhere, you'll get those few people that are very discouraging and stuff, but for me, like I kind of feed off of that. It took gives me that push like, you know, just sit back, keep your comments to yourself for a bit and just watch. I'll get there.

Nick VinZant 16:48

Now is this Can you make a full time living off of it? Can people do that?

Lopati Leaso 16:53

You can't but it takes a certain purse dancer to be able to make a living off of this. And that's those are the ones that are really passionate about it and are driven and just don't ever even see themselves retiring. To work our shows for like circus Olay, The Lion King show enough Lando Florida, the other luau show and and at Disneyworld at the Polynesian resort to the big name Lou Elson. On the islands and

Nick VinZant 17:25

stuff. Now, is that kind of your goal or is that?

Lopati Leaso 17:33

Um, it is my goal. I'm not because yeah, it's it's a good paycheck and good health pay bills. But it's mostly like I don't see myself stopping doing this at all. I'll take this to my grave, or my ashes, whatever happens to me. But yeah, I really want this full time. And that's what drives me even more to work harder than last time is to just keep working at it.

Nick VinZant 18:02

My five minute Google search may be wrong. But now are you a national champion? You want a Big championships? Or you got first place or second place? Correct? Fill in the record for me that I'm missing.

Lopati Leaso 18:14

If it says I want champion. Thank you, Google. That's very sweet of you. But no, I have not won a championship yet. If, if that's God's will for me to win a championship and let it be if it's not, then I'm fine with

Nick VinZant 18:30

what was your most recent placing.

Lopati Leaso 18:33

I took I went to the Polish culture center this year, to compete at Worlds after being asked to do it for like, over a decade or so to compete at Worlds where all the top hard hitters go. And I finally decided to compete there because I'm not getting any younger. And it's something I wanted to do. So I competed there for the first time and I took home second place first runner up,

Nick VinZant 19:00

what makes you better than some of the people that you placed ahead of? What what did the person who won do that you did it?

Lopati Leaso 19:08

In all honesty, I don't. I don't really know. Because I wasn't even expecting to even make it to the next round. I even had plans with my girlfriend and my my brother KAPOOYA that we were just going to hang out the next day because I was like I'm not gonna make it to the next round. Let's plan to do stuff on why we're on the island and stuff. And then I made it and so I'm it hasn't even hit me from this day that I even took home second place and this happened in May this year. It just hasn't hit me because it's been such a dream and a vision of mine to even have my feet touched that stage. That it's still not real to me.

Nick VinZant 19:54

You're gonna go back again. 2023

Lopati Leaso 19:57

That's the plan. I know a lot of people are expecting me to the pressures on now. But yeah, it all comes down to how this person actually represents what someone's all about and how you handle that knife. Because you're not just holding the knife, you're holding the country of Saudi oil in your hands and how you represent it. There's some people that just it's it's sometimes to Baton looking quarterly, where it's just a bunch of fancy tricks versus the guy who's more old school and modern. So he has that mix up in it looks nice. But from mine, what I noticed is what stands out is when somebody is actually different from all the other competitors is when his his style is a lot different. It's it stands out in a good way, in a positive way.

Nick VinZant 20:54

That makes sense, right? It can't just be like, looking like somebody's just twirling a baton. It's got to look like, oh, this person could fuck you up. Right? It's gotta be like a warrior spirit to it.

Lopati Leaso 21:05

Yeah. And then he's the backstage guide. And he's like the sweetest guy ever helping everybody out with their costuming and all this stuff and everything and whatnot. But yeah, it's it's usually the meanest, most humblest unique person I've noticed from a champion. Are

Nick VinZant 21:21

you ready? For some harder slash listener submitted questions? Go for? What happens more? Do you get cut or burned?

Lopati Leaso 21:29

burned? Because even sometimes, we'll even burn ourselves on purpose.

Nick VinZant 21:34

Why are you burning yourself on purpose?

Lopati Leaso 21:38

It looks cool. But no, like, it's, it's like a cloud pleaser. So you know, I don't know if you've seen the dance already. But we put the fire on our tongue. And then we light the other side on fire. Some people like the whole death fire on their tongue for as long as I can. Because it looks impressive. Or we put the fire on our feet and try to hold it there as long as we can. Or on our hand. Because it looks impressive, like, wow, this guy's holding the fire on his hand for so long. Like, like, isn't he feeling any pain? And it's like, yes, we are. But we're used to.

Nick VinZant 22:15

Do you do anything to protect your skin? Or is it just kind of like, you just got to like, what? Protective elements? I guess do you use?

Lopati Leaso 22:25

No, none. I we don't use any, if anything if I had to guess. Myself personally, probably others just we just pray for we go. When we before we started dance and pray for that. No one else considered two

Nick VinZant 22:39

people get injured, though, or did they just get hurt? Right? And like I know, I think people understand the difference. Like oh, getting an injury is like, alright, that's serious getting hurt. You're like, alright, that just hurts.

Lopati Leaso 22:50

Well, it's both because we get hurt. But the serious injuries where people have gotten hooks through their hand that come out the other side, and their leg and stuff like that. Like I said, I've I've just I burned my whole face before where I was out for a few weeks. And I've sliced my leg open before where I had to get stitches. And I've even broken this hand dancing too. So there is a lot of risks involved.

Nick VinZant 23:20

I would imagine you learn how to do it before you set it on fire? Or do you learn how to do it while it's on fire?

Lopati Leaso 23:27

No. Well, I was I would say I was kind of rushed in it. Like once I just learned how to spin I did set on fire and stuff. But it was a little bit more safe because I was doing more safer moves. The more experience you get, the more technical you get the dangerous, it will become.

Nick VinZant 23:44

Easy move that looks hard, hard move that looks easy.

Lopati Leaso 23:51

When you do a simple move, where you make it look hard is when it falls into the whole calorie category of having body language and your stance to look like a warrior and how fast you're spinning versus somebody who's probably doing a move. That's a fancy trick. But he's just standing there doing that. Nothing no body language. It's just dead to where like, Yeah, I know how he did. Versus a guy who's doing a stomp and stuff where he has to look coordinated. Where he's dancing with the knife. It's like, and you're more wild about that. Then fancy tricks.

Nick VinZant 24:26

Is everybody pretty much doing the same things? Like is there only so many things that you can do with it? Or does every every once in a while somebody breaks out like oh, I've never even seen this?

Lopati Leaso 24:37

Yeah, you you you will get those people like I can't believe I didn't think about that. You'll get that one guy who's very creative and whatnot. But most most of the time, a lot of us do do the same thing. It kind of comes down to how he transitions from one move to the next how smooth it looks, how creative it looks, how the Warriors moving with the knife and stuff like that. Does that make

Nick VinZant 25:00

Some, yeah, that makes sense, right? Like it's style.

Lopati Leaso 25:03

That all takes accountability as well, is how you look physically and costume wise,

Nick VinZant 25:11

you know, like other sports or other things that are kind of physically based, right? Is this something that you can only do it for so long? The oh

Lopati Leaso 25:18

geez that I've seen today. That spin, obviously can't spin as they used to, but they still they still dance to some degree. And if they don't, they teach it. They teach it, they pass down their teachings to their students and stuff. But there is some out there that have been dancing this before I was even born, that are still doing this. And even running their own luau shows and stuff.

Nick VinZant 25:44

What and when you get burned, what end do you usually get burned by the pointy end or the non pointy end,

Lopati Leaso 25:52

it can be a mixture of both, it's most likely where the blade is up. Because when you spin the knife, you have to spin it a certain way. You have to always have the knife facing up, you can never have a face and down. Because again, this is a weapon. And so when you're holding a weapon, you have to hold the weapon right side up. It's almost like you wouldn't be pointing a gun with the with the gun facing you, you would have facing the your enemy. So when you toss and catch it, you have to catch it with the blade up. There's probably like 10%, where the knife will be upside down. But that's when you're going into a transition where the knife goes face and right side up at the end of the move. But yeah, it would mostly be the blade and where we get burned. Because that's the side that's up the most.

Nick VinZant 26:44

Who is there? Like who's the Michael Jordan slash LeBron James, this? Is there somebody that university like, oh, that's the best ever.

Lopati Leaso 26:53

There is there is a guy. If you I'm pretty sure if you ask Google who's the best fire knife dancer in the world, I guarantee he'll pop up his name is Mika la Allah. He lives right on the island. And he is a five time world champion, which is the record for foreign champions. I believe all competitions all together, he's probably 118 of them 18 or 19. And he runs a school called manga Moo. In Hawaii. What makes

Nick VinZant 27:28

him so much better than everybody else.

Lopati Leaso 27:33

It's it's his style, and how he presents himself. He's created a lot of moves that are not to outside of fire knife dancing. But he's created a lot of moves that people are doing now today to I wouldn't say copy him. But like they they've done his moves and put them in their own routines and stuff. But he's created and introduced a lot of moves that a lot of us do today.

Nick VinZant 28:03

Are you working on anything new now that to bring the competition next year?

Lopati Leaso 28:09

Oh, that's the so usually after competitions, I brainstorm I get all these ideas and stuff like that. It's like, oh, shoot, I should have done this and whatnot. This year, it's been kind of challenging, because I want to say I reached my limit because the sky's the limit. But it's been a little bit more difficult to come up with something different because you can't come back doing the same thing as you did the year before, because then someone else has done that. So you have to kind of like, find out what you can do differently if it's spinning the knife faster. If you're bending lower, again to a lower squat, dancing more like a warrior, or coming up with a transition during a transition that no one's not seen before or never thought of. But I do have some a few new moves that are that are in the works. Along with how I present myself on stage. That's more of a lawyer like

Nick VinZant 29:09

best depiction of this in a movie or TV show.

Lopati Leaso 29:13

I know there's been a few movies out there with finite dancers slash TV shows. But there's it's always a small clip because they're the they're just the background people. One I do remember in particularly was the it was it was a movie with Adam Sandler in it.

Nick VinZant 29:34

And first dates. No,

Lopati Leaso 29:37

no, it was it was bedtime stories. I think it was called. Okay, okay. Okay, and there's a luau scene. And a friend of mine was in the movie called Miko. And he was spinning the knife in the background and I think somebody pushed him in the pool. It was one of the main characters who just shoved him Out of the way, and then the finest dancer went into the pool and whatnot. But he's one of the ones that you know he was doing it right. But most likely they're not going to hire somebody who does not know what they're doing. I've done a TV Disney TV show called Austin alley. And Gnosis like a camera just passing by me. You can hardly tell what I'm even doing.

Nick VinZant 30:22

Do you have a hard time getting health insurance?

Lopati Leaso 30:26

I know, a lot of people probably think I'm like, a regular at the hospital, where I'm just like a normal rate customer where I, I get in my car and they this punch it, stamp it like, Okay, you're almost to your free McFlurry right here. But no, the only time I've ever visited the hospital was for my face. And when I stabbed my eyeball with the knife as well.

Nick VinZant 30:52

What was the doctors reaction when he told him like, what were you doing? Like? Well, this is what I was doing.

Lopati Leaso 30:58

He was wondering what happened. And we explained to him what what I do and what what happened. And then he's just like, Okay, I think he was more stunned about when I asked him right afterwards, like, when do you think I can go back to dancing to work in again? And he just looked at me like, I'm crazy. And he was just like, I think you need to find something else to do. Because we don't know how you recover from this. And I kind of just chuckled a little bit because it's like, this doctor has no idea who I am. That's stopping his arm option.

Nick VinZant 31:37

How bad was it?

Lopati Leaso 31:40

I looked like I would say I probably looked like Deadpool with this mask off. I don't know if anybody knows what that looks like. Or like Darth Vader when his face was all messed up. But pretty much everything. It was this it was all gone. The only thing that were not touch were my eyeballs.

Nick VinZant 32:00

How did it happen?

Lopati Leaso 32:03

I was trying something new. And it just didn't work out on the way I planted.

Nick VinZant 32:09

Like the knife just hits you in the face or the fire came up and it was your hairs.

Lopati Leaso 32:14

It was all the fuel all the gasoline that kind of sprayed all over my face, mix with the fire at the same time. And so like I ended up setting my face on fire, but it just happened my front yard, it didn't happen at a gig. So I didn't even get paid for it. But I had all my friends there. So they were able to put me out.

Nick VinZant 32:38

Me and I bet that hurt me and the birds hurt.

Lopati Leaso 32:42

It did. Because I didn't even take painkillers or anything, too.

Nick VinZant 32:47

That's pretty much all the questions that I have man, is there anything else that you think that we missed or anything like that?

Lopati Leaso 32:56

I don't think so. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Garbage Musician "After Cooking"

Most musicians play on instruments, “After Cooking” plays on what he can make out of the trash. We talk Garbage Music , the strange looks he always gets and the best trash for making music. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and Countdown the Top 5 Things you Always Mean to Do but Never Actually Do.

After Cooking: 01:41ish

Pointless: 23:52ish

Top 5: 43:40ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.instagram.com/after_cooking/ (After Cooking Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@after_cooking (After Cookinh TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgZH2xjWqLIZ4SXVuR_bkUA (After Cooking YouTube Channel)

after-cooking@outlook.com (After Cooking Email)

“After Cooking” Artist Interview

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, garbage, music and things we should do. But don't,

After Cooking 0:22

it's kind of a challenge to make actually good music out of something that people throw away. A little bit of background, this thing is always played with a just regular flip flop.

And it's causing only problems. And the thing is, at the same time, it's the best thing I ever made.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps out the show. If you're a new listener, welcome. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for all of your support. So our first guest is a different kind of musician. Instead of using instruments, he plays on garbage, and it's really good.

This is garbage musician. After cooking? Did you start out with kind of traditional musical instruments? Or was this always the path

After Cooking 1:47

both ways that are kind of true, I actually started with playing on pots and pans. That was the first thing I ever dropped on. After that, I stopped playing on pots and pans and I started playing on a normal drum set. And on Sunday, I just went back to the pots and pans again.

Nick VinZant 2:05

What is it about them though, right? Like why? Why are you drawn to this style of music? Why

After Cooking 2:11

I think it's all kind of started more or less, actually, because I needed some money, I needed a job. And while my passion is to play drums, that always has been my passion. I was thinking well, I can get like a halftime job somewhere in supermarkets or at a bar doing that. Or I could try making some music on the streets drawing. The thing with drumming on street is, for one, if you have a drum kits, it's really heavy to transport that through the city, I mean, who carries the whole drum set with them, especially when you're working around all day. So that's kind of a big, big problem there. And garbage actually solves that problem. Because now I just have a big backpack full of pots and pans, I have two buckets that I can just carry in my hand. And then I'm good to go, then I can just go into the streets. Another really good thing about good thing about that, too, is that as soon as you play on something that is not usual, to people, they don't see that often at someone plays on garbage. As soon as we do that, it's more interesting for them. Especially when you play on the streets on the streets, you always need to have something that catches the eye of of the audience, something that is interesting, something that they have never seen before. And someone who dropped some garbage is for them much more interesting than someone who just plays drums. People are so attracted to it because it's so new. So interesting. So unusual to do.

Nick VinZant 3:52

Is it a novelty kind of thing, though, right? Or is the music really good? Like, oh, this kind of actually, yeah, it's different. But it does resonate with people,

After Cooking 4:04

I think, a combination out of those two. Apparently, I started to play better. Because people pay way more attention now than they did five years ago. I think five years ago, I was just literally someone who bangs on garbage on the streets, just making some noise kind of they hear something that sounds kind of like for example, techno drums, but they see someone who plays on garbage. And I think that's like the the magical thing about it.

Nick VinZant 4:36

Is it just pots and pans are what other kinds of instruments for you are garbage. I

After Cooking 4:41

used to have a lot of pots of pots and pans and different tonalities so they actually fit to each other. It took me quite some time to find something in key. So for example now if I play with other musicians, I can actually tell them okay, let's play in, in the key of D, D sharp minor, because my pots fit to that. On the other hand, I have buckets. The bucket just work as a kind of bass like a kick drum, then I have also like, plastic. Jerry, can

Nick VinZant 5:19

I obviously, it's not hard to find garbage, right? Like you can find that kind of pretty much anywhere. But do you have to look for a certain type of garbage, right? You mentioned like, Alright, I gotta get a pan that plays in D minor. Most garbage

After Cooking 5:32

doesn't play in any key. More or less a noisy thing. It's not something that makes a tone where you can say, oh, that's an A, or that's a D. But yeah, this definitely difficult to find them. For example, the pots that are used, they are not all of them are actually playable. Because you need something that when you hit it, it needs to stay in, it needs to sound for a longer time. Otherwise, it's not just like, you need something that makes more like a sound, something like that, to imagine something that resonates. Yeah. And so for that, it was pretty hard to find something that actually resonates. And I found out that there is one special way they made pots, they don't do it anymore, which is kind of a problem for me now. Because if I need to find some new pots, it's getting harder and harder. They're like those. I don't know, I don't know how to describe them. They're like little pots, which look like my grandma would have them in, in their home like old pots with painted flowers on them or something. They have like, no sheetrock, they have like, material they're made with a Meyer, it may, I don't know how it's how it's pronounced are called. Which, which makes that sound. And now everything is made from stainless steel or anything like that. The pots nowadays don't sound that good anymore. So I've kind of a problem if I want to find some new? Well, I think you can still buy them some places, but they're more and more rarely.

Nick VinZant 7:17

So where do you get them?

After Cooking 7:18

Like a market where people sell their stuff secondhand? I went there with with the drumstick looked at all the pots they have. And then I hit on them and said, Oh, no, thank you. And went on to find other things. So I don't know what they were thinking. I didn't have time to explain it to everyone. But yeah,

Nick VinZant 7:40

that's what kind of looks where you get in when you're just walking around banging on people's pants.

After Cooking 7:46

I don't know, I don't even know, you know, all kinds of looks I, I trained myself not to care. Because otherwise it would it would be too much. People are always looking weirdly especially for example, also when I when I start making music in the street, the moment that I unpack my things, you know, I'm just walking around to the backpacks for the city really big backfit that backpack though. And then I start to unpack it. And I only have garbage inside, I only have pots and broken metallic things. I don't know things people wouldn't have used for anymore. And I really started to concentrate to just do my thing and to not look at the people because they're always like, What is he doing? Why is he unpacking garbage in the middle of the in the city center?

Nick VinZant 8:39

You make the money playing on the street? Can you like is this? Is this something where you could go into a recording studio and make an album?

After Cooking 8:49

Well, no, not yet. The thing is, like one year ago, I I realized that I want to do a little bit more with it. Because there were a lot of people who talked to me on the street and said, Hey, we have an event that would be nice if you could come to us and and have a gig on stage. But that also is something I couldn't give to those people. Because what I do is, it's not that that much of of like it's not really music what I do. I mean, I make a few nice beats now and then and that's what people like. But I think also the beautiful thing about it what what people can see in it is that kind of live performance. Just that kind of the randomness. It's not about the music. It's about the event itself, that people find so great at the moment. But to put it just for itself on stage. I think that's rather difficult. So what I did since last year I wanted to take it a step further. And I specialized on exactly doing that putting getting it on stage, making it interesting enough to play it on stage. And therefore also making it installation interesting enough to get it into a studio to record it. I'm thinking all the time about making new instruments, what I could do that still fits into my kind of garbage music. And now I can finally say that I have something that I could actually that I can actually present on stage and also in the studio to, yeah, to make songs to make an album. And I'm making a few songs right now. The first one should be available soon.

Nick VinZant 10:47

So if the pots and pans in the bucket kind of simulates drums, right? What did the other instruments simulate the PVC

After Cooking 10:57

pipes? They sound like a bass? Like a bass guitar? Something plucky. I mean, if you put a lot of effects on it with the software then maybe even could sound more or less like a guitar, for example.

Nick VinZant 11:12

I see you have some in the background is there? Could you give us like a quick example on one of the smaller ones? I'm interested to see how you do this. Oh, yeah, that's like, two meters, seven feet, whatever the metric you want to use there.

After Cooking 11:29

A little bit of background, this thing is always played with a just regular flip flop. Oh, I

Nick VinZant 11:35

thought you were just I thought you just dropped.

After Cooking 11:38

I didn't drop my shoe that my, my my stick blades. I love I don't know why. But that's, that's kind of the best thing you can you can get for this kind of instrument that gets it gets really warm sound. Let me give you an example.

Nick VinZant 11:54

And for anybody listening to this, right, like, this isn't hooked up to professional microphones and all that kind of stuff. So.

Okay, so you got the drums? You got the guitar, the bass guitar? Is there any other ones that you're working on?

After Cooking 12:16

Actually, yes, there are a few other ones. Right now I'm experimenting with. With the razor, like an electric razor. If you take that sound, put it to a microphone, and then just pitch the tone. So pitching it higher or lower, then you can get the sound that is really close to just electronic synthesizers, sounds absolutely like something you would hear in every electronic song. And I also have a sore. It's just like a normal sore, but you can use a bow, just like for a violin. And then you can bow the saw and get a really weird sound out of it.

Nick VinZant 13:03

You know, for people who maybe aren't musicians, right? Like I get the immediate like, Oh, that's cool, right? Like, it's interesting to see how you can make musical sounds with stuff that's not necessarily an instrument for other musicians. Are they like, Hey, man, go for it with this experimental stuff. Are they kind of like, what's this guy? Do?

After Cooking 13:24

I think till now I only got great response. Because even for them, it's something new challenge. I'm challenging. I'm challenging myself to do something that people haven't done that much before. It's kind of a challenge to make actually good music out of something that people throw away.

Nick VinZant 13:45

Do you? Are you testing it out? Or do you feel like no, I can do this,

After Cooking 13:51

I really, really, really want to. And I believe that there's definitely potential in this kind of thing. And the big idea for me behind this is that I want to integrate more live music into the electronic scene, like the electronic music scene. The thing is, with electronic music, everyone loves it. But for me, What I miss is that you cannot relate that much to the sound. When you're when you're watching it like live on stage, you cannot relate this much to what is happening there. Then you can watching regular bands. And that's why I want to create something where people can actually relate to the sound. They see, for example, that big bass tube and they think Hey, okay, that's the sound you make when you hit on that kind of instrument. I hope that people can relate in that way more to what is happening like electronic music. That makes

Nick VinZant 14:52

sense, right? I understand what you're saying in the sense that like, I'm a fan of that house, electronic techno, whatever you want to call it. Music But for all I know, it's somebody up there just pressing play on their iPhone, right? Like you're not seeing someone make that music in real time. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, sure. What is a piece of trash? You've tried to make music on and was like, Oh, this, this is not going to work? Well,

After Cooking 15:20

that's a good question. Well, that's kind of a kind of struggle, I think it's, it's still the the big PVC pipe instrument, that's, that's more or less my greatest success right now, because that's what catches the eye the most at this moment. But at the same time, it's also kind of my biggest failure, because it's such a big instrument, it's nearly doesn't fit in my cart, it's actually I have one centimeter left. It's like, just by luck, I just close my doors of the car, just by luck, I didn't even try to calculate that before, it's like really big instrument really heavy to carry around the brakes all the time. And I need to put microphones on the end of that instrument. And if you have 12 of those pipes, ending at different spots, it's really hard to catch all the sounds at the same level. So it's with the same audio quality, live on stage, I'm getting a lot of problems because you have feedback, the sound from the speakers, or getting back into the microphone. It's just an instrument that is really, really hard to build to carry around to, to put mics on. And it's causing only problems. And the thing is, at the same time, it's the best thing I ever made

Nick VinZant 16:59

is is there any other example of this in like popular culture in the sense that like, some other musician has done something similar, or there's a sound effect in a movie, or anything like this, that maybe not like not to this level, but just like, oh, this person did this in this. And it's kind of the same thing that I'm doing.

After Cooking 17:25

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of people who are already doing something similar than I do. Especially as you said in, for example, effects for films for movies. I'm falling, I'm following a few people on Instagram. We're actually doing that and there are a lot of people in this world who already got really creative and made really crazy sounds out of naturalistic things. Just record it with a microphone. So yeah, there are definitely a lot of people doing that. But I haven't seen them I haven't seen any doing this kind of thing live on stage

Nick VinZant 18:06

so that you didn't then just like walk around banging on stuff all the time.

After Cooking 18:11

Not not as much as I would wish i It's definitely a good idea to just go around and experiment with things that are around you just to hear the sounds when I when I walk past like how to say it in English like a construction. Yeah, construction. When I see like a really long big pipe laying around. I would I would love it to just go there and hit on it. See how bass it sounds how sub bass that sound would be. But I don't do it since it's illegal. Most of the times they're working there, I guess. But yeah, I think it's a good thing to just experiment and find more things to make music with.

Nick VinZant 19:00

What is your overall favorite sound?

After Cooking 19:03

Doesn't have to be garbage. Just one instrument I'm cheating with and I love it.

Nick VinZant 19:07

Give me a garbage one and then a regular one. How about that? Yeah.

After Cooking 19:10

So garbage one. As I said, it's the one I love and hate the most the tube instrument. The other one that is not made out of garbage is a colomba Have you ever heard of a colomba? I don't it's like a little wooden block with metal things on it. If you if you let the metal thing vibrate, the block vibrates and that creates a sound this is one

Nick VinZant 19:41

oh I feel like can you strum it or play it or whatever real quick

is that is a cool sound. Now where's the From the like, what culture does that originate from?

After Cooking 20:04

I think original originally, it's somewhere from Africa. I don't know what count three to be exact.

Nick VinZant 20:11

Do you clean it off before you use it for everyone that we

After Cooking 20:15

are on the same page here, I'm not playing on things that are actually really, really dirty. So I mean, they're getting more dirty and the they are getting dirtier when I play on the street, for example. But I don't take something from from a garbage bell that is full of, I don't know, fungus.

Nick VinZant 20:39

Whatever you're saying, You're not digging out of the

After Cooking 20:41

drone. No, not at all. So and if I would do that, and yes, before I start playing it, I definitely cleaned. Clean it at least one time.

Nick VinZant 20:51

So now, can you explain the name after cooking after cooking? Yeah. Where did that come from?

After Cooking 20:56

Well, um, a few years ago, I think four or four years ago or something when I did the garbage drumming on the street thing for for a year. People asked asked me all the time, what my name is. So well, if they can find me on social media or, or anything. And I didn't have anything I didn't have a name. And then I started thinking about what I what I could do. And I don't know I didn't take it that serious. So I didn't think about a name that long. And at the end, I thought like, Okay, I'm banging on pots and pans. Normally, you cook on pots and pans. I do kind of a recycling thing with them. So I call myself after cooking. It's like, after you're done with cooking after you don't use this stuff anymore. I take them to draw on it. That's a good,

Nick VinZant 21:58

I like it, man. I like it. Um, that's all the questions that we have. Is there anything else that you think that we missed? Or? Well, there's

After Cooking 22:05

definitely one thing I would love to say. I just to let people know when when things will be happening. Because on my Instagram and Tiktok, a lot of people asked me when I will drop my first song or when I dropped something on Spotify. And just wanted to say that I've been working on it really, really hard. But it also takes a lot of time because I don't want to be my songs, just something that I have done in two days. I mean, I want to put effort in it, make it sound really, really good. And that's why it takes so long but my first one is finally ready. And now there are a lot of things that still need to be done. For example, music, making music video, thinking about our cover and anything, but my song should be out there on Spotify, Apple Music, or whatever you can think of. At the end of November, please support it because that's my dream. I would love to make more for for people. So yeah, I'm excited.

Vampire Scholar Theadora Jean

For hundreds of years stories about Vampires have scared and captivated us. But where did they come from and why are some people convinced they are real. Vampire Scholar Theadora Jean joins us to talk Vampire Mythology, the original Count Dracula and how Vampires went from scary to sexy. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Vampires.

Theadora Jean: 01:53ish

Pointless: 50:22ish

Top 5 Vampires: 01:17:35ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://tsjharling.squarespace.com (Theadora’s Website and Author Page)

https://twitter.com/theadorajean (Theadora Jean Twitter)

Interview with Vampire Scholar Theadora Jean

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, vampires,

Theadora Jean 0:19

that just starts to be kind of rumors and folktales that emerge about people that are coming back from the dead and preying on the living in some way. And the other aspect of the vampire that I think will always hone our imaginations is its relationship to capitalism. It's kind of weird. It's kind of weird that this horrible 19th century story about a weird vampire that comes from far away to prey on people in London, then ends up as a kids car team,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out if you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for all of your support. So our first guest is a vampire researcher, who has studied where the mythology surrounding vampires started, and how it has changed and affected society. As vampires have gone from scary, to sexy, back to scary and just about everything in between. And it turns out that the changes that vampires have gone through, also say a lot about the changes society has gone through. This is vampire scholar, Theodora gene, when we're talking about vampires, like where does the mythology around them start,

Theadora Jean 1:58

it rarely happens kind of 1600s, maybe 1700s. In Eastern Europe, there just starts to be kind of rumors and folktales that emerge about people that are coming back from the dead and preying on the living in some way. And the stories kind of vary. But then what happens is the kind of powers that be start investigating the stories, and take it very seriously, and start writing things down just on a kind of scientific basis looking into it, because they they genuinely don't know what is just fairy tale and rumor and what might actually be a dangerous thing that is happening. In essence, it gets investigated by the church and by scientists. But then right at that time, you know, printing press, text writing all starts to kind of become a bit more popular. And then it kind of leaps from a kind of almost like a tabloid story that's been investigated to something that becomes part of the literary imagination, certainly, in kind of Western Europe,

Nick VinZant 3:14

people thought that this was a real thing that was happening, and then it kind of just evolved into fictional stories.

Theadora Jean 3:20

Yeah, yeah. That's what I would say, oh, people certainly weren't sure. Because, obviously, when we go back that far, whenever something strange happens, people kind of put a story behind it to try and make sense of it. Yeah. But what would have happened is if you have somebody you hear these stories, even now about somebody who certainly appears to be dead, but then kind of has a bit of time and then comes back, or, or you might have somebody who genuinely is dead, but something makes their body move or something. And so they can have the appearance of life, a dead body can have the appearance of life, even if the body is definitely still dead. So it's just these kind of little little things that have kind of, but people weren't sure about at the time and didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain.

Nick VinZant 4:10

When we think about like other monster creatures, right like Frankenstein, the Wolfman, the mummy. Yeah, they have that kind of similar origin. Were like, oh, is this real? Or were they always fictional characters, and the vampire is different?

Theadora Jean 4:28

Well, I would say the werewolf is very similar. So the werewolves and vampires actually are almost almost the same figure. The Vampire is also associated with the mean. So you think of the werewolf comes to life at the forming the where the vampire also kind of historically comes to life in kind of like the moonlight and also, vampires, often very associated with violence, but also with the animals. So Dracula is, you know, it's the Dracula Dracula is was associated with a bat. But he's also like the wolf and the dog and all those different things. So they definitely have a kinship. In terms of the other ones you mentioned, Frankenstein, I would say is definitely comes from Mary Shelley's novel. And the mummy. I don't know so much about I think you'd need somebody who knows about Egypt, Romania and things like that to come on your show to talk about, but I think the mummy is. It is a kind of a different category or by itself, I think, yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:34

When does the vampire become really popular? 19th century

Theadora Jean 5:38

is when it all kicks off. In a way it all really happens with Byron. We're familiar with Lord Byron. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:46

He's no longer with us, I believe.

Theadora Jean 5:50

Okay, so no, Byron was a lord in early 1800s. Very famous at the time for writing outrageous books, but also living in a very outrageous lifestyle, slept lots of people kind of the original rock star, he wrote a few things like, short story called The fragment, which kind of kind of flirts with the idea of the vampire, but then a doctor called John Polidori, who is actually a personal physician, he writes a novel novella called the vampire that along with a few others, similar time so sort of at 19 kickoff the vampire as we know it, a figure that's kind of walks among fast preys on people. It happens there. But then we also also in America, there is a another short story called The Black vampire, which is about a slave who comes back from the dead and wreaks havoc. Then you have a big Penny Dreadful called Vani. The Vampire, which goes for two years written by multiple people, and that really cements in the idea of the vampire as especially the kind of English aristocrat lives in a castle preys on people that really cements it in the popular imagination. But then you also have Camilla, that kind that is really famous book, which by an Irish author called Sheridan the Fanny. In that one, he basically sets up lesbian vampire queer, Love Story misunderstood. And then, at the turn of the century, we have Dracula in 1897, the well known story, and that's, that's where it all gets bedded in.

Nick VinZant 7:43

Dracula was the one that I always that jumps out to me, right? Yeah. Was that that big of a deal at the time? Or did that just kind of throughout as history is progressed, like we kind of not forgot about but the other ones got pushed to the back. And that one became the big one,

Theadora Jean 8:01

I think, okay, so when Dracula comes out, it's not this like huge, stupendous hit that changes literature forever is not that Dracula was written by a lot by Bram Stoker, and he was an Actor Manager. His his day job really was working in the theater, looking after some super famous actors and actresses. And he wasn't he was kind of like a midlist author who had who wrote regular horror stories, Dracula comes out. It gets met with like mixed reviews. But really the thing that cements it as this kind of iconic vampire King really is Nosferatu, the film that kind of brings the vampire onto the big stage has always been associated with Dracula. And really, Dracula has just gotten more and more popular as time has gone on, rather than less. I do have a couple of reviews that I could share with you really briefly.

Nick VinZant 9:09

This is for the original,

Theadora Jean 9:11

the original book when it comes out and 8097

Nick VinZant 9:15

Yeah, for would that be from Nosferatu then it's like that like that's scary. I remember maybe the way it was filmed with a grainy like a guy with those ears.

Theadora Jean 9:25

There is ya know, as far as he comes out, I think in 1922, so quite a while after, yeah, it never made him like big millions or you know, it never did. But I will just share with you. A couple that did did recognize the genius. Yeah. So weirdly is the Daily Mail that recognizes Dracula and says, the recollection of this weird and ghostly tale will doubtless haunt us for time to come. The eerie chapters are written together with concern Trouble art and cunning and unmistakable literary power. Persons of small courage and weakness should confine their reading of these gruesome pages strictly to the hours between Dawn and sunset.

Nick VinZant 10:12

Day. That's a good review.

Theadora Jean 10:15

Yeah, um, and I will also just share with you the American response, because I have the San Francisco Chronicle here, which says, the story is told in such a realistic way that one actually accepts its wildest flights of fancy as real facts. It is a superb tour de force, which stamps itself on the memory. So some people did like it.

Nick VinZant 10:39

Was it really that much better than the other ones? Or was it one of those things that like, it just hit at the right time, and it was pretty good

Theadora Jean 10:48

thing that made it into something more than it was really was the when the film came out long after he died, he never really got the recognition of the work that he did. I will tell you, famously, one of the things that he did was, so as I was saying, he was a manager of a theater. And he arranged for a theatrical performance of it in order to cement the copyright, because copyright laws were different them. And he wanted to make sure that if it did become big, and got put on the stage, and people made money out of it, he wanted his copyright. And in order to do that, he had to be the first to put on a production of it to cement that copyright. And the famous actor that he worked with was kind of like, I'm not gonna take part in this don't really, don't worry, I'm not really into this. And the script wasn't very good. So that that particular adaptation, it kind of sank like a stone,

Nick VinZant 11:50

I would imagine, right? And I don't know what I'm talking about. But I would imagine you go back into 18th 19th century morals, right, that this would have been like, oh, my gosh, was it just sensational? Or was that just Am I kind of thinking people were more crude than I thought that they were? I don't know if that's,

Theadora Jean 12:12

it's not that you're you're not wrong about the prude potentially being there. But the thing is about the book is the kind of like the way we see Dracula vampires today, they always have like, a bit of an erotic charge, you know, like the, the kind of, you know, the the physicality of it seems very obvious. But But the book itself, in a way, there's very much there's the good guys and the bad guys. And the bad guy is Dracula, and vampires. And there's kind of there are the scenes of gruesome violence, which are kind of recognized by the time by the reviewers and by the readers. But it's not seen in the same car. It's kind of just seen as just just plain old, horrible violence, just rather than having that kind of, like sexual undertone, if you see what I mean. So there was nothing when they're reading the text, they're reading it just as like, this vampire is taking the blog, they're not really seeing it as something that has any kind of subtext or anything beyond.

Nick VinZant 13:17

We're kind of I feel like we're used to sex and violence and they were used to violence.

Theadora Jean 13:21

Yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that. Yeah. But there's more that they're not seeing the sexual undertone.

Nick VinZant 13:28

But was it there? Because it seems to me like from the outside like Vampire, Dracula went from being scary to being sexy. Uh huh.

Theadora Jean 13:35

Yeah. Yeah. But I think when you read the book, it definitely, there's definitely a charge there. So when Jonathan is alone in the castle, there's just you know, there's the two men in the bed chamber for a star, then Jonathan gets approached by these three women that like, you know, licking their lips and climbing all over him. Like is there is just the Victorian audiences weren't so familiar with kind of sexual subtext. I would just say,

Nick VinZant 14:09

when would you say that it'd be kind of came, became overt, like as it goes out, like,

Theadora Jean 14:15

even Bela Lugosi kind of brings a kind of a seductive charm like he's alluring. He's kind of less kind of like ugly, Nosferatu strange, odd and more kind of dark, handsome heroes sorts of things. So I would even say from Bela Lugosi, and just I think just being on film, there's there's a real change from the text to something much more corporeal. It's like a very kind of physical male presence that is recognizably human. Whereas in the book, it's very much more is he even real? Is he not at home? I had a bad dream. Am I mentally ill. Is it a bat? Is it a wolf? Is it dust? Like what? What's happening there?

Nick VinZant 15:06

So in my mind, right, like, I go from Bram Stoker, like 1897. Yeah. And then I go to like, oh, and the next thing was twilight. Are there big vampire books, though in between that? Let's just call it 100 years.

Theadora Jean 15:22

Yes. Yeah. So there are a few. What I would say though, is 19th century does seem to be like core time for bedding in the vampire, right. But then after the Victorian era, when we're into the sort of war years, there aren't, I'm sure there are vampire stories, especially kind of beyond kind of UK, US. But in terms of the iconic ones that we would recognize as part of kind of the standard literature, I would really say, in 1954, when Robert Matheson rights I Am Legend, that is a biggie. They make three different films of that book. So there's that, but really, when Anne Rice and Stephen King in the 70s, Stephen King writes Salem's Lot, I think that's 1975. And then and Rice's interview with vampire is 1976. That along with the Film portrayals, so you have Frank Langella as Dracula in a Universal film, you probably won't remember it is kind of fallen by the wayside apart from myself, but at all. It was a big deal at the time, because Dracula becomes like it. Instead of the women being victims. They fancy him back, right. So there's a bit of a, we're changing now into the vampire as kind of not just kind of a seductive figure guys, like dangerous, but more one that is like a misunderstood other figure that has been unfairly maligned. I mean, an Rice's Interview with the Vampire puts you the all of a sudden the heroes of the story are the vampires. Right. So that really changes everything. But then you do have Twilight which comes out I think 2005 2006 That puts vampires back on the map again, of course. But there's also Octavia Butler's fledgling, which is science fiction. Bearing back more away from paranormal romance genre star and bit more into although it's science fiction, vampire, but still a bit more on the literary side. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 17:48

What do you think? It is about it that has always drawn us in?

Theadora Jean 17:53

Yeah, okay. So as long as you have k, the basic concept of the vampire, is this something that returns from the dead preys on the living sucks out the lifeforce that is a vampire. And that you can use that in so many different ways, right? Dracula is just one of many kinds of thought experiments that we can have about that kind of dynamic of something that lives on the threshold, something that is not alive, not dead, not not us, but sort of other at the same time. And the other aspect of the vampire that I think we'll always hone our imaginations is its relationship to capitalism, right. So Dracula has hordes of money. And famously, when he gets somebody tries to stab him in the book and outcomes a stream of gold, right? Because he has his lord of his manor. He's defeated lots of people and hundreds of years ago, and he has lots of different kinds of money. So that's Dracula. But even before then, the vampire the vampire isn't an aristocrat, right in your mind. Is somebody rich? Even? Yeah, lower

Nick VinZant 19:17

income vampire. Yeah,

Theadora Jean 19:18

exactly. Right. I'm sure there are some obviously, but that's that's what we think of the aristocrat in his castle. Yeah. So but then, even in something like in Marx's Das Kapital, right? He returns to the vampire language, or imagery in order to describe how capitalism works. And I have a little quotation for you. Can I share it with you? Yeah. Okay, so, Marx describes capital like this. Capital is dead labor. That vampire like only lives by sucking living labor and lives, the more the more labor it sucks, the time during which the labor works. The time during which the capitalist consumes the labor power that he has purchased off him. Right. So there is an AI and even if you think of Twilight, right, Edward is super rich. Yeah, that's part of his a lot. So as long as we have, I guess, an imbalance of resources, there's always going to be this concept of the vampire that can be moved around on different things with I guess, vampire is another word to explore exploitation, I think.

Nick VinZant 20:36

I guess I never really thought of it that way. But is that the original intention of the kind of authors? Or is that something though, that has evolved over time, and maybe people looking back? Like, oh, this is what they meant? Well,

Theadora Jean 20:52

I think I kind of think when Pete When authors write, I don't know if they always have like a specific like manifesto in that way. Yeah. But at the same time, if we go back, so I was talking to you about Byron, when his physician, John Polidori, writes the vampire, he is thinking, essentially, of Byron, as somebody that eases people, and drains them and ruins them. So even in fact, Varney the vampire, and Camilla, and Dracula, and all of these different ones, there's, there's some kind of way in which people are extracting, like a life force in whatever way you might want to take that is definitely embedded within the tax. That's kind of what being a vampire in some way is, is kind of taking taking some bits, like some kind of physical essence of somebody for your own regeneration.

Nick VinZant 21:45

Do you think most people kind of noticed that? Or is it one of those things that like we maybe we noticed subconsciously, right? Because I'm like, when I've read it, it's just like, Oh, it's a good story. But when you bring it up about like, oh, it could be a metaphor for capitalism, like, oh, yeah, I guess it kind of could

Theadora Jean 22:00

this. I mean, I wouldn't say the only way to interpret the vampire is to see it as a capitalist metaphor. But as long as we have capitalism, that's gonna be something that really easily can be used to talk about these things like in the Netflix film vampires in the Bronx, then if you've heard of that, haven't seen that one. Yeah. So funny little farm, where the vampires are property developers, which is perfect because it Dracula is a property developer, too.

Nick VinZant 22:32

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, sure. How can we always remember the vampire and not the other characters in the books?

Theadora Jean 22:43

I actually am really pleased with that question, because it really goes to the heart of the actual novel. In the book itself, there is no specific hero. There is no one narrator. The book itself is composed of lots and lots of different pieces of writing. So like, tabloid articles, or one person's diary or another person's letter to somebody else, right? There's not like, one person's first person narration where they say, I went to the castle, I came back, we I went on this journey to destroy the vampire. That's not what happens. There are lots and lots of different voices. But the one thing that is constant is the threat of the vampire, right? So it makes sense that in all the different adaptations the TV series, the film's the book adaptations, all of the things that come in response to Dracula, there isn't there are different ways in which you can make the kind of hero of your little TV series right you can make it that Lucy's fiance author is the staff you can make it that it's Jonathan, you can make it that it's the girls Mina and Lucy, you can make it that really is a battle between Van Helsing and Dracula, right? Because the book lends that lends itself to that because it it doesn't have one strict kind of master voice, but you're following through the book. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 24:20

can't think of any vampire story in which I didn't focus on the vampire,

Theadora Jean 24:24

the villain. fun bit, right.

Nick VinZant 24:27

Who is the best character around Dracula though in any kind of fictional universe that you'd be like? Oh, that's that character is interesting, even though they're not Dracula.

Theadora Jean 24:39

Well, for me personally, my my research focuses on Mina will you remember her? Do you remember of us least seen the film with Winona

Nick VinZant 24:49

Ryder is Winona Ryder. Yes,

Theadora Jean 24:53

in a way for me if if there is a hero, it's meaner or maybe meaner and haha husband Jonathan, because it kind of centers around her in that her husband Jonathan goes off. Then we have some correspondence between her and her best friend Lucy. It's her friend Lucy that gets annihilated by first the vampire and then the vampire hunters, right. And then in the latter part of the book, she's the one managing all the knowledge. She's putting together the timetables, she's realizing that she can access what the vampire is doing because she has been bitten by him, which means he has a telepathic connection to him, which means she knows where he is. Right? And she kind of manages the group. She is also very interesting because she hovers between being a kind of conventional, attractive, kind of typically gendered woman in that, you know, she's engaged and then she gets married to Jonathan, she doesn't overstep the mark right she's not very overtly radical but in actuality what she's doing is she's she's she's kind of taken charge of the of the narration. And she's she's putting she's she's leaving the team, right, but she's she's not doing it with too much ego, right? She's just like, politely gathering everyone together.

Nick VinZant 26:24

Is there any other big character around kind of vampire lore? Besides Dracula, that really jumps are the only other one I would think of is like Van Helsing.

Theadora Jean 26:34

Van Van Helsing is has become very iconic in itself. So you even have a Netflix series just on the Van Helsing legacy now, as well as the film but there's also a film on Van Helsing but in a way that derives from the book Dracula. I would also say Camilla is like, like like a secret echo of Dracula. So whenever you think of like a vampiric female presence is normally like, in some way. It's been inspired by Sheridan, the Fanny's Carmilla also has this kind of iconic status that is just kind of just goes a little bit under the radar. But when you think of a woman vampire, when you think of some kind of like, formidable force that is kind of maybe has a bit of lesbian quality, and I don't know if Did you ever watch Castlevania? Yeah, yeah. Do you ever Camila. And that

Nick VinZant 27:41

started the first Caesars just like you are. So she Carmilla is now that that predates the kind of Bram Stoker stuff, or that is after it predates and that's more from a female Dracula dragon.

Theadora Jean 28:00

Yeah. So even though it was written by a man, the story is, there is a girl called Laura, who meets a woman or teenage girl, same as her who is a countess, and is basically sending her blood in the night. But they have a certain kind of friendship that goes that falls into romance. But the idea about Camila is obviously, the the narrator Laura believes that she is the same age as her but actually, no, she's hundreds and hundreds of years old and she has her own castle and all those things. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 28:40

What do you think that like Bram Stoker would think of all of the different interpretations, right where Dracula can be scary. Funny, sexy, unclear gender unclear sexual preferences. Like what do you think of it? I think most famous author would think about, like Twilight and interview with no, yeah, all those different ways that it has gone.

Theadora Jean 29:09

Honestly, Bram Stoker, we think of Bram Stoker as this weird little guy, but actually, he was the strapping strong, charming Irishman who loved socializing with people, and famously even jumped into the Thames to save somebody's life once or attempt to save somebody's life. He was a good guy. And I think that he would have been honored to see his creation on film in all the different permeations because obviously, he dies before we even really have film and cinema right. But he is in love with the London theatre scene and performance and storytelling, and I think he just would have been amazed to think of his work becoming a as well known, I mean, Dracula goes is beyond even the book now is part of our like discourse as to how we understand popular culture, you know, and I think in particular, he would have probably liked Christopher Lee in the Hammer Horror films. I think they're quite akin to the actors that he worked with Henry Irving, who famously did big performances of Mephistopheles, and he played a good villain, right? And Christopher Lee is quite, I think, is quite odd. In that vein in the Dracula movies, certainly, I know that Bram Stoker was very interested in gender issues. And he writes other things about men and women. And he's kind of intrigued by like the the new the new things that we can think about men and women. So for example, he writes about, Van Helsing in Dracula writes about Mina that she is, has like a woman's grace, but a man's brain she has like intelligence and adventure and all of those things. And he admires that about her. And I think that definitely comes through in the book. So I'm not sure that he would have, you know, been a total card carrying feminist in the way that we we would now think of those kinds of topics. But I know that I don't know. But I like to think that he would have just been, I've just been amazed by all the different interpretations and to just see his his construction on the big screen, I just think, I don't think he would have really cared what we made of whether it's what the vampire is or not just that that power, the power of the performance and the villain, I think he just would have been like life made.

Nick VinZant 31:50

When you think of this interpretation of Dracula, what is your first kind of thoughts about it? So like Bram Stoker's Dracula,

Theadora Jean 32:02

I think of a sexual predator. That's what I think Bram Stoker's Dracula is about. The thing that he does is he invades bedrooms and he invades bodies. That's, and I think if we were going to have an adaptation that really spoke to that, it will be an 18th. And it would be horrible.

Nick VinZant 32:22

What did the movie like? How did how well did that kind of capture it?

Theadora Jean 32:27

Well, I don't think there has been an adaptation that is actually that close to the book, I think. And in a way it can't be right because the film adaptation or TV adaptation is always gonna have to fit the form right and adhere to the directors intentions and the writers intentions. For me, Nosferatu is one of the closest in fact, it invokes the strange ugliness, this thing creeping closer and closer and the characters can't get away from it. That kind of summons the like spirit of the novel for me. But I would also say Freddy Krueger is actually very Dracula for me. He comes in the night he's in dreams. You're not sure if you're awake or asleep. When he famously says down the phone, I'm your boyfriend now. Fast Dracula. I'm coming for you. I'm interrupting. Like, I don't know if you remember, but there's two characters. One is blonde one is a brunette in the Nightmare on Elm Street series. And they're very what what like, when you think of Mina and Lucy they're often blonde and brunette. And the brunette is the one that is sort of the final girl. I also think the Slenderman phenomenon is very Dracula. I don't do you know about the Slenderman? Yeah. So in terms of this fictional thing, so it comes up on the internet. So you're, you're in the ether. Now you're in cyberspace, you're in this sort of dream space, that isn't the real world, right? And there are all these multiple different ways in which the speaker can appear. This kind of Gothic dark thing that you can't put your finger on, but it's again, coming closer and closer. Like, is it real, is it not? And it seems to have kind of summoned lots of different interpretations. So if you go on the internet, there's loads of different kinds of pictures, but still kind of recognizable much like Dracula, in that there's, there's almost countless amounts of films, adaptations, literary versions, or rewrites as well as Sesame Street, Count Dracula, all of those different things right. And Slenderman is a bit like that. It can be put in diff When put in different modes, but still was recognizable as that same scary dark figure. That's kind of in the imagination.

Nick VinZant 35:09

Edward Cullen from Twilight,

Theadora Jean 35:11

I have no strong feelings. I think it's okay for people to have fun and have a gothic romance if that's what they want to do. I think there's better vampire books out there but you know, that's fine.

Nick VinZant 35:23

Our vampire scholar purists though a little bit annoyed that like that's, that's,

Theadora Jean 35:30

that's, that's the one that's the most I guess if you want to say vampire purist vampire critics, I think basically kind of ignore ignore the series because there's so many other interesting vampire books that you can talk about and look at. But I mean, I would say for me, I quite like when there are new series new adaptations, more kind of Gothic adaptations and things that bring back to life the kind of creepy the supernatural is always fun for me so so for example, with BBCs recent Dracula, I don't know if you saw it with close bang. No. Well, there's a three part series that came out. I'm not sure if it's in the US or not, but I hate I hated that series. I did not care for it one bit. I thought it was terrible, but it kind of it just kind of puts my work back on the map and it continues to discourses continues the conversation. So I think there's room for a bit of teenage crush on Edward Cullen, I think

Nick VinZant 36:43

better fictional vampire to count from Sesame Street or Count Chocula from cereal?

Theadora Jean 36:51

Um, is gonna be Sesame Street, right?

Nick VinZant 36:56

It does Count Chocula accurate in any in any way.

Theadora Jean 37:03

But what I will say is, it's kind of weird. It's kind of weird that this horrible 19th century story about a weird vampire that comes from far away to prey on people in London. Then ends up as a kid's car team thing like I don't really get it. But here we are.

Nick VinZant 37:26

vampire power you would like to have vampire power you would not want to have

Theadora Jean 37:32

I don't think I want any of that vampire share my life man. I'm happy to just die and be filled my grave

Nick VinZant 37:40

Yeah, the price is the price is too much.

Theadora Jean 37:44

I don't want to be damned. I don't want my other half to look at me and be like stay away. D

Nick VinZant 37:50

Yeah, that's comes it comes with too much baggage. So where does like the Vlad the Impaler stuff come in? Is that a later invention? Or was that always the basis for it or idea behind it?

Theadora Jean 38:05

Yeah. So Vlad the Impaler comes in really with Dracula. Right. So Bram Stoker spent about seven years doing his research for the book and writing it and making notes and things like that. And when he is doing his research, he goes to work B. He goes to Scotland and kind of sets up the atmosphere and things like that. And there is a kind of, I guess you could say critical debate as to whether Vlad the Impaler was a direct influence or if he had Vlad the Impaler in his mind when he writes Dracula. Some people think yes, he was inspired by the speaker and that is what creates Dracula. Some people say there's no evidence for that. But either way, it's he was definitely thinking of a kind of powerful Lord figure akin to Vlad the Impaler when he's creating the character of Dracula. And so after that, there's kind of it's kind of like in in the imagination of of us all really that it kind of makes us a little bit borderline is Dracula real was the real guy is a something that actually is still there lurking away in the kind of cemeteries of some strange Castle far away. So it's kind of a fun thing. But yeah, it's part of the potential mythology, not just around vampires, but specifically, Bram Stoker's writing of Dracula.

Nick VinZant 39:47

Best depiction of vampire in movies or TV shows worst depiction.

Theadora Jean 39:56

Best I'm gonna say I know I've mentioned this writer a few times, but I'm gonna mention those frosty one last time when he comes up on the ship. Do you remember that pop? Yes emerges and all of a sudden it's just this fucking weird thing and none of the guys can do anything about it. And he's comment, right? That is to me that's pure this pure drag, right? This is what I was saying about him his apprentice phase freakin scary. And he's coming and you're helpless, right? Worst? What did you say of Dracula or vampires? Either one? Yeah, I would just say I'll just say Twilight, the Twilight series. But I will also give a little shout out to near dark film about vampires. That was very good as well.

Nick VinZant 40:43

Have you seen any of the funny ones? Like what we do in the shadows?

Theadora Jean 40:47

Oh, yeah, they're really good, fun.

Nick VinZant 40:50

I, I am of the personal opinion that the energy vampire is one of the greatest characters of the last years. Like it's so well done. I love Colin Robinson.

Theadora Jean 41:03

Yes, he is very good. But can I give you some literary insight into that? Secretly when Dracula comes out in 1897, another vampire novel came out by a lady called Florence Mariette called the blood of the vampire. And this was a psychic vampire the story of a psychic vampire. She's Creole. And so at the exact same time as Dracula comes out, there's also this idea of less something that is preying on, like sucking blood from the neck, but is just every everybody basically everything she loves that she touches and loves. She basically destroys by taking that lifeforce. And yeah, so psychic energy vampire, but taking it seriously.

Nick VinZant 41:55

Has Frankenstein ever been as big as Dracula?

Theadora Jean 41:58

Ah, what a great question. Right. So Frankenstein. Okay, so how are we determining bank? Right? So it's difficult to say. In terms of adaptation, I would probably say Dracula, I think, I don't know, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every film ever made. But I would say Dracula has probably been at, made into film or TV more times than Frankenstein. Right? There's even this there's two films coming out next year, just by Universal Dracula adaptations. There's Renfield, which is a riff on that character. And then there's also the last voyage of the Demeter which is just set on the boat. So that there's something about Dracula that people just love to mix up and remix and do something new with Frankenstein less so excepts, right. There is an idea that Frankenstein is actually the birth of science fiction as a genre, right? Not all critics will agree with me on this, some definitely see recognize Frankenstein as the beginning the kind of original science fiction novel, some will go a little bit earlier. Yeah, there's a whole minefield out that I'm opening myself up to with that, but I'm gonna lay my sticker on the table. Yeah, I'm gonna put my cousin's name on say, Yes, I would say Frankenstein begets science fiction, because it's the first kind of sustained attention to what I would see is what all science fiction comes down to, which is an introduction of a new technology. And then dealing with the consequences of that new technology. Almost any science fiction, whether it's set, 300 years in the future, 3000 years in the future, whether it's near future, and there's a virus, whatever it is, science fiction is always interested in that new technology plus a consequence. So you could then say Frankenstein has a far bigger impact, and more popularity, I guess you could say. I just want to give you an example. Right? Dress talk? Yeah. Okay, what happens in Jurassic Park, in science fiction, there's a science, there's a lab, a scientist takes up bits of different dead creatures and brings them to life. That's Frankenstein. And then they deal with the consequences, right? And that consequences is dangerous to the people that created the thing in the first place. This Jurassic Park is Frankenstein.

Nick VinZant 44:39

Now you can think of so many examples of that, right? Like the ones that just jump out of my head is like iRobot we can create robots that take over the world like Yeah, it's really interesting how there's all these different stories, but they come back to really all being the same story. Like there's only a couple ones, right? Yeah, kind of the same thing.

Theadora Jean 45:01

I mean, it's kind of true and not true. Like people have such rich imaginations. People are doing so like new different things all the time, right? But at the same time, yeah, there's there is this idea that there's a few, I heard this one thing that's like there's two stories. One is a person goes on a trip. And the other story is a stranger comes to town. Those are the two stories. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Nick VinZant 45:28

Yeah, they pretty much all come like all come together in that sense, right? That one seems to his Frankenstein changed in the same ways that that Dracula has changed over the years. Is Frankenstein always kind of Frankenstein?

Theadora Jean 45:42

Ah, to be honest, I just think that Dracula and Frankenstein are very similar in that for whatever reason. These two stories get written in London, England in the 1900s. And they create monsters, and for some reason, we've just not been able to get over it. 100 years later, we're still like, riffing off those ideas that those monsters kind of put into motion. I don't think there is another monster figure that is iconic and memorable in the same way like most kids will still know Frankenstein or like, ah, Dracula, like we as part of our popular consciousness as part of the mythology of like, it's part of our storytelling. Like,

Nick VinZant 46:37

I would go, Dracula one. Frankenstein to werewolf three.

Theadora Jean 46:45

I really agree. I would agree. Well, it's a kind of a funny one. I feel like people for some reason, vampire is kind of acceptable. Like, you can have a cool vampire. Right? You can have the last books. Yeah, yeah. But well, it's just always a little bit ludicrous.

Nick VinZant 47:05

Yeah, somehow it's too far fetched. It is.

Theadora Jean 47:08

I do find it strange. But also funny because I feel like a werewolf is also a little bit more possible, right? Because the only change is like into a different it's a different kind of animal. He hasn't died and come back to life. He doesn't have a mortal powers. He's just gotten a bit more in touch with his best your side

Nick VinZant 47:26

is much more limited. Right? Like that could happen.

Theadora Jean 47:30

Yeah, I get like you could get more hairy. You could get more doglike. I think right? Yeah.

Nick VinZant 47:35

It's weird how that works out.

Theadora Jean 47:37

But that like if you say well, was that just sounds silly.

Nick VinZant 47:41

Yeah, there's something about it you like? Um, that's pretty much that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else you think that we missed? Or? Kind of people want to learn more about this one of their more about you? What should they?

Theadora Jean 47:54

Oh, wow. I guess I would say that if you want to know about me, I also write some Gothic stories. I've written a vampire story or to my time, a bit of flash fiction ghost stories ghost stories. My main thing probably, you can check out my work. My pen name is tsj. howling. So that's me. But in terms of Dracula, I would just say I guess I tell you what, I'll give you one other adaptation which you might want to check out. Yeah. Which is not strictly a Dracula adaptation. But Midnight Mass on Netflix, it's a vampire story. It's not strictly Dracula. But if you there's just a lot of similarities there and it's genuinely scary. And I like that about the about the about the series because like I say, like, I don't feel like like most Dracula is either kind of like 12 rating, whereas Midnight Mass actually did make me feel a bit uncomfortable and scared watching it. So yeah, check it out.

Nick VinZant 49:04

Is there one that's like really scary that like what would you say is the scariest of all the vampire stuff?

Theadora Jean 49:14

I don't know. I don't know that I've ever found that. I want I want that. 18 I want that. Right. Like I kind of think it's always too much. Because if you really go there is a horror is kind of a horrible story. Right? And it? I don't know that it would be popular with modern audiences like Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula they had to make him into a love a romantic figure to bring into life even though technically he like Francis will couple of would have you believe that the this is the most accurate and faithful to the novel adaptation that there is but that's not true. He invents a whole love story between him Amina, which is not in the book at all quite the opposite.

Demolition Derby Driver Bekkah Doyle

She’s now known as the Queen of Destruction. But there was a time when getting behind the wheel of a car was Bekkah Doyle’s greatest fear. We talk Demolition Derbys, the joy of racing and the most crash-resistant cars. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Scary but Real Places.

Bekkah Doyle: 01:19ish

Pointless: 35:42ish

Top 5: 52:38

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.instagram.com/beingbekkah (Bekkah’s Instagram)

https://www.instagram.com/gofastgirls (GoFastGirls’ Instagram)

Bekkah Doyle: Demolition Derby Driver

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, go behind the wheel for some demolition. And then we'll count down the top five, very scary, but also very real places,

Bekkah Doyle 0:28

it's dangerous and stupid. At the same time, it is very much staring down your worst fear, you can literally feel the energy of the hit, come through your body. It is like a freight train that just goes through you. I've had cars where I'm like, I really suck. And then on the other side, I have driven a few Toyota Camrys that are just indestructible.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. If you're a new listener. Thanks for checking out the show. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for spending your time with us. I want to get right to our first guest. She's a demolition derby driver, Our Lady of destruction herself, Becca Doyle. How did you get into this?

Bekkah Doyle 1:20

Um, well, I went to my first demolition derby I think I was like five years old. My mom took me every year our account, like most county fairs have them. And I always was like, Oh, that's really fun. I could do that. But then in 2019, I actually had a real life car accident had pretty weak significant physical injuries. But I mostly had really bad PTSD in cars, like I was really nervous about having a another car accident. So once I got like, medically cleared to do whatever I felt like risking. I just I was just gonna go for it. And either it was gonna help me not be so uncomfortable and fearful in cars, or it was going to confirm my fears. But I wanted to just give it a try.

Nick VinZant 2:14

So I did it makes total sense and kind of makes no sense at the same time, right? I don't mean that to be offensive, but like, Okay, I go for it, right?

Bekkah Doyle 2:25

It's dangerous and stupid. At the same time, it is very much staring down your worst fear. But I decided to go for it. Because realistically for PTSD, your only option and fears are to be medicated for it and kind of live in a fog or overcome it as best you can.

Nick VinZant 2:48

Does it seem to have worked so far?

Bekkah Doyle 2:50

Yeah, I actually am really comfortable in cars. comfortable in the derby cars comfortable on my daily driver, I really only now get nervous in like traffic like stop and go traffic when I can't account for what the other driver is going to do. Or that's really when I get nervous. But it's not entirely eliminated that fear but drastically improved it. And each time I do it, I get more and more comfortable. It's a confidence thing. I feel a lot more confident that I know I can react to someone else. Very quickly.

Nick VinZant 3:29

I think that everybody is familiar with the basic idea of a demolition derby but what's kind of like what's happening.

Bekkah Doyle 3:36

So at demolition derby, you can start from different positions. Like if the cars are next to each other or back to back, the traditional one would be you have like a box on each side of the box is lines of cars, like trunks to trunks, you start straight back and RAM. And then from there, you drive hitting into each other until one car is running. You really want to hit with the rear end of your car to prevent any damage to your front end because again, you want to be the last car that's driving. So you really have to be good at driving in reverse. But there are no mirrors or anything to help you go in reverse so you are physically turning all the way around to look out the back of the car while driving it in the mud. Usually,

Nick VinZant 4:26

you're trying to drive in reverse the whole time. Yeah,

Bekkah Doyle 4:30

as much as possible. I only will drive forwards if I am like relocating within that box to get somewhere else. Or as you start destroying your car. Sometimes you lose gears or you can't go in reverse. Or it's like the end and you're trying to beat someone then I'll switch to driving forwards. But the majority of the time you are trying to drive in reverse as much as you can.

Nick VinZant 4:57

So like is there a generally kind of accept Did strategy to it besides just driving in reverse? Or do you have your own strategy or kind of like you go into a race, what's the game plan,

Bekkah Doyle 5:09

I will usually try to come off that start line as fast as possible to hit the car behind me before they realize I've done it, but also then pull out as fast as possible, get my front end in like a corner of the box. And then start work lines backwards, like as much as I can until there's much less cars left, because usually, in the beginning of derbies people are really, they're amped up, they're nervous, they're ready to go. And they kind of take themselves out by not being smart. So I tried to be smart and calm for the first chunk, let them kind of weed themselves out. And then I will adjust to more aggressive driving of like, you know, chasing people down in reverse moving a lot further around the box and stuff like that. But a lower car count is actually harder than a high car count. Because of the high car count. There's lots of things to hit. With only six cars in the box, you're chasing people and being chased. So you had to be really quick to react because with a lot of cars, you can kind of flop something you do have a time limit depends on the event that you either have one minute or two minutes that you have to be hitting something. So you can't be playing dead or, you know, avoiding people you have to be making contact every one to two minutes or you're ruled out. I honestly can't even tell you in the car. How long one minute or two minutes is it all feels like an eternity so I just hit whatever I can until I can't. It's

Nick VinZant 6:38

a good strategy. So what are the like what makes somebody a good demolition derby driver,

Bekkah Doyle 6:46

you have to have grit. You have to get in the car. These aren't luxury racecars. They're, they're out of junkyards and they're filthy, and they have lots of things wrong with them, you know, you're not going to buy a really nice car to destroy, you're gonna get it as cheap as you can. You're in the mud, it's dirty. But to be successful, you have to be calm in the car, you can't be freaking out. There's lots of things to react to lots of things that you can't expect or predict. So you have to be able to maintain your composure while things are seemingly out of control. And then also being able to be logical and multitask. So while I am driving, I am doing a lot of things in my head. I'm listening to the car to hear if it sounds funny if maybe I have damage. I'm looking at the smoke to see if my radiator smoking I'm looking at smells, I'm usually looking in a completely opposite direction of where I'm going to see where I want to go. As I keep my head on a swivel, because a hit can come from anywhere around me. I don't want to be hit. But I want to hit something. So you're kind of like an owl just looking around you at all times. And then on top of that, I have to watch the track officials for if there's any red flags or Black Flag, anything at all, I there's no race receivers in these cars, you are very much alone by yourself. So I have to be watching them on top of doing all of that, to make sure I follow the track orders.

Nick VinZant 8:19

Well was that first race like?

Bekkah Doyle 8:22

My first one actually wasn't great. I did a women's division in Chino. And I think I drove for like three minutes before my car just had random electrical failure from a radio getting hit out. Luckily, two weeks later, I was doing another derby. And it was my hometown derby. So it was the one that really meant the most for me. So I usually say that that's like my first real Derby gig came really full circle. It was the one I went to when I was five years old. My mom was there. It's that derby is actually only maybe three miles from where I actually had my car accident, like it's all very tightly knit together, like the cycle really was completed. And that one I was the only woman driving, which was really cool for me in my own hometown to get to have that experience to be the one representing for little girls. When I was a little girl going to those events. I never saw a woman in them. So getting to be that representation as an adult was really really cool. It was a big car derby. I usually drive compact derbies now. So it was a full sized Crown Vic in the mud avatar raceway. It was really fun. And from then I've been addicted.

Unknown Speaker 9:41

What do you get the cars? I work

Bekkah Doyle 9:43

with a guy who he owns his own like junkyard and he gets cars that have been impounded or a really good deal and he builds them. He's very established in the Southern California demolition derby world. He drives demolition derbies and has for a long time I'm So he will build them for us. And then we give them back to him because he can put it out or put it into another car. And it's like a rental almost a lot of people will buy their own cars and build them. But for me, this has been an easier option because cars are quite expensive right now.

Nick VinZant 10:17

Like if it's your your average demolition derby car, like, what does it cost to get it going? To buy it all that stuff? Right? Like? Yeah, so get it to the derby floor? What do you what's that going to cost you?

Bekkah Doyle 10:31

It depends on what type of car and then wait, what type of Derby if you're doing a bone stock Derby, which is called chaining bang, where they chain the car shut, and then literally bang, you can get a pre ran car, sometimes in the like, three to $400 range when that's been already crashed, but it's still drivable, it still works, it just might not have the best steering or might have some kind of odd hiccup to it. Fresh cars in the compacts can usually be like 900 to $1,000 if you want like a fresh, fresh one. The big cars are where they become really expensive, like Crown Victorias are ideal for Derby driving. People also just love them in general. So they're pretty expensive. They're in the couple of $1,000 range. And then there's even a layer of demolition derbies where they are, they're like, fully built race cars in the $10,000 ranges where they have. They're reinforced with steel, and they have high power engines and all of this fancy stuff because they're intended to drive more than once. And then the really big derbies where you have like heat races, and then a main event. So they can get quite expensive. And it can also be quite cheap, just depending on where you end

Nick VinZant 11:53

up. How do you then recoup those costs?

Bekkah Doyle 11:56

When are you just like,

Nick VinZant 11:58

this is the cost of doing business. And this is what I like to do. Yeah, it's,

Bekkah Doyle 12:01

it's a bit of both you a lot of people are sponsored and have sponsors who work with local companies. A lot of the times, I will instead of a traditional sponsor, if I'm doing some type of special car, or event also spots on my car for people like I did a charity Derby for breast cancer. So I sold spots on my car where you could honor people with their names instead of a traditional sponsor of like a company. Sometimes I'll sell spots on my rear bumper for people you don't like, you want to put their name to get crushed. And then I work with some traditional sponsors as well where they can put their logos on the car and stuff like that. But the best way to get your money back is

Nick VinZant 12:44

to win. Cow much money we usually talk at first place

Bekkah Doyle 12:47

is usually for the compact cars roughly like $1,000. It can depend on how big the car count is, you know, the more cars the more money. So it's usually about 1500 to 1000 for first place, second places like 500, and then so on. And you can also win additional money for like the Mad Dog Award, which is it's usually like a combination of crowd favorite and most aggressive. So if you get that award, it's usually an additional PR on top of that.

Nick VinZant 13:20

Is it hard to find people to do it? Like how many people are usually involved in the like the demolition derby scene? Is this a popular thing becoming less popular, just steady?

Bekkah Doyle 13:33

I would say steady. There's always new faces always new people wanting to give it a try. Maybe less women than there are men giving it a try. But you'll always see kind of the usual suspects at the same events. Everyone's it's kind of like a family. You know, we're all hitting each other out there. But everyone knows each other everybody's friends. I'm part of a group called the damsels of destruction. They drive female only derbies together

Nick VinZant 14:03

for the people that kind of, you know, come and go right because I can imagine a lot of people's like, I'm gonna drive in one of these one of these days. Do they usually get hooked really like I'm not doing that again.

Bekkah Doyle 14:14

It's a 5050 split. I have seen some people where it's their first time and they make it pretty far to derby. And they're like that was the coolest thing I've ever done in my life. And I've also seen people intentionally park their cars and say I don't want to, I don't want to go any further. I've done you'll know instantly if you like it or don't like it.

Nick VinZant 14:34

Does anybody ever quit though before they get hit? Like Oh, no. Nevermind,

Bekkah Doyle 14:40

no, it usually is that first hit. That will be the deciding factor for people because you have to come off the starting line. Anyways, you gotta go somewhere, someone's gonna come at you because you're usually lined up across from someone. So if you're sitting there, I'm going to come hit you even harder because you're not moving and I've traveled a lot further by Usually after that first bump, people know either like, I'm really scared, and I don't want to do this anymore. Or though like that was really fun. I want to keep hitting things. How fast

Nick VinZant 15:10

are you usually going when you hit somebody?

Bekkah Doyle 15:15

It depends how fast they can get going. If the box is really small and narrow and muddy, my speed is pretty limited. If it's dustier and a big box, I can carry some good speed. My speedometer is never work. So it's all honestly, by feel maybe like, up there would be 1520 miles an hour, as you're trying to, like zip around the box to get to safety. If I'm trying to relocate within the box, like from corner to corner, or make a lap to see what's going on, I will drive as fast as that car will let me because I'm much harder to hit if I'm moving at a high rate of speed.

Nick VinZant 15:54

It seems like it should be really easy to hit somebody but then what do you think about a moving target? It's actually probably I would imagine, it's more complicated than you would think it's really

Bekkah Doyle 16:05

hard to because you have a helmet on a huge helmet, you can only see about this much, because the rest of your head is protected. You are physically turning around in the seat to look out where your rear window used to be. Now it's just a whole more you're looking over your shoulder out, you're like rear windows. But the thing that makes it really hard on top of all of that, because there's no mirrors, as you are hitting your trunk is going upward. It folds upward and in so it's getting taller and taller and taller. So at a certain point, it's really hard to see over that as well. It becomes very obstructed there.

Nick VinZant 16:48

I never thought and you don't want to hit people with the front of your car because that's where the engine is, I'm assuming,

Bekkah Doyle 16:52

right? Right. If you are going to hit someone, you would want to hit them as dead on as possible. But you run the risk of killing your own car. So the rear end is your best bet as long as possible. I want to hit somebody's front end where their radiator is with my rear end or their axles and pump their tires. Those would be the three, like kill shots that I would want to take. But I want to do all of that as much as possible with my rear end.

Nick VinZant 17:19

Like how many hits can the average car take?

Bekkah Doyle 17:22

You know, I've had cars where I was shocked that they were still moving the car I drove in Orange County, I I did a head on hit with someone expecting that to be like, okay, yeah, we're hitting head on this gonna kill my car and the car kept driving. Sometimes the stupid things can kill your car, though, like electrical things just get knocked loose, or all of a sudden your tire came off. And now you're just on rim and you're sinking in the mud with nowhere to go. It's honestly how you react to the damage you take will determine how long your car can survive. So if like again, like I said earlier, I'm calculating in my head what's going on. If I see white smoke, I know my radiator has seven minutes before it's just done out. So drive smart, don't speed up that process. If I can tell him losing gears or anything like that. Don't be really hard on the engine, try to make it last as long as possible. So that's what makes you the good Derby drivers reacting to what your car is doing to make it last longer. But it really could be the stupidest things kill your Carson.

Nick VinZant 18:32

Are you surprised at how durable most cars are? Or it how fragile most cars are?

Bekkah Doyle 18:39

Both. I've had cars where I'm like, I really suck. Like I drove it. I think it was a Chevy Cavalier and I snapped my own wheel off in a red era in the mud just like nobody even hit me. I snapped it off. And then on the other side, I have driven a few Toyota Camrys that are just indestructible. Like you can't kill a Toyota Camry if you wanted to.

Nick VinZant 19:05

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes. worst place to crash into somebody best place to crash into somebody.

Bekkah Doyle 19:15

It is against the rules that hit somebody in the driver's door. So that would be the worst place because you will be kicked out of the derby. You'll also probably get yourself in a nice fight in the pits later. There's not much in the driver's door there's one steel beam and however much padding the driver personally decides to put and that's all the protection you have between you and a car hitting you. The best hit would be a dead on hit to the radiator or snapping someone's axle. If you get their axle they're not going anywhere.

Nick VinZant 19:46

Where's the axle?

Unknown Speaker 19:47

Remind them we'll see axle is on a cart so

Bekkah Doyle 19:51

front wheels rear wheels that they paint lines on your front tires like an X or one line through. If I hit someone's driver's door in the wheels are spinning. I was on the gas. And they No, I did it intentionally. If they're not spinning, if that line isn't spinning, I was on the brakes and it wasn't intentionally trying to hit the driver's door. It just happened. So sometimes there's a little bit of overlap, but you try his best to not do that. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 20:19

I could see, I would imagine that people like I you can tell if that was an accident or not.

Bekkah Doyle 20:23

Yeah, undeniable. If somebody meant to hit you, you're, you're gonna know.

Nick VinZant 20:29

Hardest crash that you have ever been in.

Bekkah Doyle 20:33

Two weeks ago, I took a hit that knocked me out of the seat until the floor of the car. That one was pretty bad. I'd say that was the worst. I've I've been hit out of the seat twice.

Nick VinZant 20:42

It's weird. Like for people who've never been in a car accident. Like, you don't realize how hard it is?

Bekkah Doyle 20:49

Yeah. You don't realize you feel it? Like he goes through your body.

Nick VinZant 20:56

That's exactly how you obviously know better than I do. Right. But that's exactly how I describe it. Like it goes through you, like shakes you to the to the core.

Bekkah Doyle 21:05

Yeah, I would say that is the one time yeah, you can literally feel the energy of the hit, come through your body. It is like a freight train that just goes through you. So

Nick VinZant 21:19

then the people get to a point where like, oh, I can't do this anymore. I like it. But I just my body can't handle it.

Bekkah Doyle 21:27

Yeah, it's it's a tough realization that I think everyone who does this sport will have to at one point or another, decide when it's time to not do it. A lot of people get injured and keep going because they love it so much. But naturally, we will all hit a certain age where it's just, it's really risky. It is really risky. A lot of these cars, they're not set up like a traditional race car, you know, we're not strapped in with special harnesses and Homs devices, a lot of the time we're just wearing the original stock lap seatbelt, or the original seatbelt, but like my arm is over, it's under my shoulder so that I can turn around. So the safety inside the cars is quite minimal.

Nick VinZant 22:18

Is there any kind of a thing in which like, alright, so because of how hard it is on your body, people know I got 20 races, I got 50 races, I got 100 races,

Bekkah Doyle 22:29

I think it'd be it gets to a point where instead of doing like, like I did five of them between mid July and last weekend. Instead of it being like, Oh, I'm not going to do them anymore, you'll start cutting down to I'm going to do one this year, or I'll do two or I'm going to do one in the summer and one in the fall and really spread them out to give my body a chance to heal. Most Derby drivers, you will have to force them out of that driver's seat before they ever make the decision to not do it anymore. It really is. It's kind of like an addicting drug. Which once you really get into it and you're it's a lot of adrenaline that you you can't find doing probably almost anything else but drugs. So they'll all get that itch of like I want to be in the car like it does suck watching other people be in the car. You want to be in the car.

Nick VinZant 23:22

Yeah, I would imagine you you're all of your senses are kind of tuned in Right? Like there's a certain amount of rush to it.

Bekkah Doyle 23:29

Yes, the adrenaline when you get out of a car is really high half the time you don't even realize if you have an injury because you're just ramped up and then the next day who Oh sore.

Nick VinZant 23:41

Where is like, where is the big demolition derby like, some day, I'm going to drive there like every driver wants to be at this one.

Bekkah Doyle 23:51

Um, the biggest one in the country. I think it's in Ohio. It's called Blizzard bash, and that that one's pretty big. But for California, Chino, the Chino challenge is really big. I drive in the women's division in it already. But their unlimited division with the big, fully welded $10,000 Derby cars is kind of like the goal of where you would want to go if you want to keep going up the sport. But that's really expensive. But that one's a really big derby. It sells out every year the crowds really wild. It's just like a really great time. Can

Nick VinZant 24:33

you Can anybody have this as a full time living?

Bekkah Doyle 24:40

If you worked really hard at it, like really hard at it, but you couldn't live off of it. You're kind of unless you had really big sponsors that just threw too much money at you. You'll never be able to win enough money to like buy a house or anything. Most of the car ours, you can run twice, three times if you're lucky. So you're continually buying a new car each event. So I wouldn't want to make a living doing off of it. I work a full time job so I can do this for fun and not have to worry about, oh, if I don't win, I can't race anymore. And it takes that pressure off.

Nick VinZant 25:20

Best demolition derby car, worst demolition derby car.

Bekkah Doyle 25:25

I really like Toyota Camrys, especially like the late 90s ones are like nice and big and boxy. And if you look up their crash safety ratings are really high. I look up that sometimes out of curiosity just to see. And they're just like tanks and mean people still drive them as daily drivers so they can really go the distance. The worst one is that other than that Chevy, that snapped its own wheel up. I drove an Oldsmobile Alero. And it had no power steering. I did get second place in that car with no power steering. But it wasn't the most comfortable car to drive. That's the one I got hit out of my seat into.

Nick VinZant 26:09

Are there any cars that are like the phrase I always think of is like a glass cannon? Right? Where like this car is great for hitting people. But if you get hit you're in? Like I guess. Is there a car like that? Or are there any kind of cars like oh, you want to get one of these? These these? And don't get one of these, these these?

Bekkah Doyle 26:29

I mean, there's probably a lot of compacts. I wouldn't want to get in just because there's not much in the back like a hatchback. Right? There's no trunk. So you're hitting right at your own wheels. There's not much to it. I would probably prefer not to get in one of those. Anything that's really like newer cars that are mostly made out of plastic and not the metal. I would want to skip Nissan's do well. Camrys do well. I've never driven a Ford other than the Crown Victoria. That car did really well. It had a lot of run and damage early on. But it still wasn't in the winner's circle at the end it kept running even with all of that front end damage. Any of the like early 2000s, late 90s cars, I would say in that time rain is perfect. They're like really metal, really dense. well taken care of if possible. I probably wouldn't want to do it in a Pinto. That doesn't sound fun.

Nick VinZant 27:32

Is there any trash talk during the derby? Like are you yelling at other drivers?

Bekkah Doyle 27:37

Yeah, a lot of people. I have a neon pink helmet. So you can see my head usually bobbing around in the car. It normally not trash talking because everyone at least is this little circle in Southern California like knows each other. We're all friends in one way or another. So it's usually like waving at each other laughing at each other kind of like you know if we're under a red flag, and we don't know why we're like asking each other through the windows like what's going on. You'll see people signaling like this, if they're in a final two and they want to do a head on it instead of trying to battle it out and drag it out. I've thrown my face shield up at someone out of frustration. That's probably the most trash talky thing. But usually it's fun. Everyone's just kind of like talking to their friends. So the drivers window.

Nick VinZant 28:34

I don't know if this is going to be a great question. Or a question that I shouldn't really ask you.

Unknown Speaker 28:40

But

Nick VinZant 28:44

have, have you ever been surprised by a bodily function that occurred after being hit? I think that they mean to like if you ever like do people pee themselves or poop themselves know in the middle of a demolition?

Bekkah Doyle 29:01

Or they don't admit it. If they do. I've never heard of anyone doing it. I personally, all day I don't eat. I eat like a banana water, Gatorade, Red Bull, because I don't want to get carsick in the car. I personally haven't gotten carsick. I don't want to throw up in my helmet. I do know someone who's gotten sick in their helmet just from actually overheating. It's really hot in those cars and we have fire suits on and helmets and engines are kicking up a lot of heat and you're out of breath and you're huffing and puffing because it takes a lot of muscle and there's a lot of adrenaline so she just overheated and threw up in her helmet. That's my worst nightmare. I don't want to throw up in my helmet it is in your face. So I try to eat as little as possible. Drink enough to be hydrated but not have to pee my pants. If somebody were to hit me hard enough. I could see how if you got hit just the right combination of an Fortunately, events that something like that could happen

Nick VinZant 30:04

is a great way of putting it. Just the right combination of unfortunate events. Um, has, has it ever made you though want to run people off the road? During regular driving? Like, do you ever find yourself like, wait a minute, not in the derby here?

Bekkah Doyle 30:22

It doesn't it doesn't. It really highlights when I am swerving or reacting to someone's bad driving. You know, like they're texting or they're not paying attention. And then like, you shouldn't be driving that bad. But I never feel like well, I just want to ram this car. It's usually out of my system. Well out of my system,

Nick VinZant 30:45

is there like a Michael Jordan, or LeBron James or like, who is there somebody that like that's the best demolition derby that anybody's ever seen.

Bekkah Doyle 30:57

That's hard. I think the drivers who go to Blizzard bash are probably the most comparable in that sense. They're like the big boys. They spent a lot of money a lot, a lot, a lot of money. People watch Blizzard bash on TV. But a lot of derbies are more like grassroots in your local community, or, you know, they're a lot of them are at county fair. So it's like people who live within that region. So a lot of people will know, like local drivers. The guy who builds my cars, Dan Pachala, he's won a lot, like a lot. He's very, very, very, very well known in this world. The dams of obstructions are really, really well known. Anyone who you kind of see on the podium repetitively, or you can recognize their number or their driving style, like I always paint my cars, the same design so that people can build that car recognition of like, oh, that's Becca, that's her car, big Betty 1313, you know, but it's more on a local scale than how like the NBA is like that guy's from LA but everyone. It's more of within your community, who's who and even more on a granular level, it's more of the drivers know who, that's my biggest competition. That's where I gotta take out first. That's why I gotta look out for the crowd just wants us to hit each other as hard as we can.

Nick VinZant 32:31

Oh, is there a type of race that like is, that's the most extreme or the most risky, like this type of race.

Bekkah Doyle 32:40

I mean, they're all risky, honestly, especially with the limited safety protocols that you have to follow. The big cars are pretty dangerous because they're big, and they carry a lot of weight and they can hit you, the Weldon one rollover quite a bit, because their suspension is welded, so it's quite rigid, they kind of hit each other and bounce. So it's easy for them to roll, but they all kind of have the same level of risk. You know, even in the small cars while it's a smaller car, there's less Carter protect you. So that's almost equally as risky if you're to take a really nasty it. And there's always the risk of fire to all cars have that risk.

Nick VinZant 33:25

Yeah, that would be the one thing that I'd be like, Ooh, I don't want to mess with that. Yeah,

Bekkah Doyle 33:29

I've been on fire twice.

Nick VinZant 33:31

What do you just get out as fast as you possibly Well, the doors are welded. So what do you

Bekkah Doyle 33:35

if it's bad, what do you do? There's firemen around the box, waiting to come rescue you. Usually they'll get to you before you can get out. If it's bad enough. A lot of the time the fires just like a little flare up, they put you out you keep going. The first time it was in my rear end, and I could smell it. But it didn't know it was me. And they couldn't see it from the outside. So I just kept driving. The second time it was at the end of the event, a car caught my car on fire. They just quickly extinguished us while sitting in the car. So like before I had processed, I'm on fire. They were there to put it out. But we have fire gear. Yeah. You don't have to wear it. That's the thing. You can wear either long sleeves, long pants, or a fire suit. But we also have fire extinguishers in the cars with us.

Nick VinZant 34:27

So nobody's ever, like burned alive in water or anything like that.

Bekkah Doyle 34:31

No, no, not to my knowledge, but I've seen some cars fully burned, but the person got out

Nick VinZant 34:38

for people who maybe are interested in finding out more about demolition derby is more about finding out about you. Where can they find you?

Bekkah Doyle 34:45

I have an Instagram it's at being Becca ve KKH I encourage anyone who wants to get involved especially any female drivers reach out to me I love to help people get involved. I very much Emily in the past isn't where I am because somebody helped me took me under their wings. Most of the events are done for this year. Next year, usually July, there's Chino, there's a week long demolition derby event at the OC Fair, where every night there's different types of Derby. So usually in like, July and October, and those months in between, you'll see a lot of events in Southern California. fair season is when you see a lot of them.

Chaotic Witch Frankie Castanea

Witchcraft is rising in popularity. And with a successful book of spells and 1.2 million followers spread across social media, Frankie Castanea, better known as Chaotic Witch Aunt, is one of the faces of modern witchcraft. We talk witchcraft, spells, hexes, religion and why more and more people are becoming witches. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things to put Ketchup On.

Chaotic Witch Aunt Frankie Castanea: 01:20ish

Pointless: 01:01:39ish

Top 5: 01:19:22ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCg1WRceAe0bso9FwgtSCEQQ (Frankie’s YouTube)

https://www.instagram.com/chaoticwitchaunt/?hl=en (Frankie’s Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@chaoticwitchaunt?lang=en (Frankie’s TikTok)

https://www.amazon.com/Spells-Change-Guide-Modern-Witches/dp/152487163X (Spells for Change - Frankie’s Book)

https://open.spotify.com/show/2LKfO9Bibty9lynEtnrMbw (Books and Broomsticks Podcast)

https://twitter.com/AuntChaotic?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor (Frankie’s Twitter)

Chaotic Witch Aunt Frankie Castanea: Interview

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, witchcraft and catch up.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 0:20

Witchcraft is about taking back control. It's about reclaiming your power and taking things into your own hands. I do not I mean, I'm not going to go out of my way and like, throw hexes willy nilly, but I don't have a problem getting my hands dirty if I need it. I did do I did put on, there was this fast luck oil, I put on fast luck oil to get above Boston Cream doughnut. It worked.

Nick VinZant 0:46

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out if you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for spending your time with us. So I want to get right to our first guest. Because while this is a practice with deep historical roots, it has become increasingly popular in the last couple of years. This is Frankie Castaneda to, perhaps better known as chaotic witch. And when I think of like witchcraft, my mind goes to movies. Oh, yeah. But what what is this really like in modern day,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 1:30

I would say witchcraft is definitely a practice. Depending on who you ask, people are going to have a completely different opinion on it. I come from a tradition in which I practice mainly folk magic, which is referred to the magic of the people. So a lot of the things in my practice are need based spells need based magic. So I look at okay, what do the people around me need help with? Do they need help with financial stability? What can I do spell wise and action wise to help them achieve financial stability?

Nick VinZant 2:08

So is it is it religious? Or is it different? Or is it kind of but no.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 2:17

Witchcraft in itself is a practice that is not religious, you can have a you can be a pagan, where you would work with pagan gods and also be a witch you can be a Wiccan, which is a very specific pagan religion, and also be a witch. Or you can be you know, a folk Catholic or you invoke the saints or certain things and also be a witch. For me, I don't define myself as a pagan, I just practice witchcraft and folk magic. So a lot of my, you know, religious bearings have to do with a very particular goddess that was present in Italy, a Roman goddess, as well as that I work with the saints. So I kind of have a blend of a bunch of different things. And while my religion has become very intertwined with my witchcraft, that's not always the case for everyone.

Nick VinZant 3:14

I am confused. That's okay. Break it down. Yeah. Is that? I guess, is that just because it's unfamiliar to me? Or because there's like, okay, there's a lot of different things, okay.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 3:29

It's not It's definitely so the large the mainstream media, the mainstream kind of population, all they know about witchcraft is what they see on TV. And witches, okay, that's kind of something that, like, every witch knows that, like, when I meet someone, and I say, I'm a witch, they're gonna be like, Oh, Harry Potter, because that's what they know of it. But what it really looks like, and this is my personal practice is, I will time up certain things with the face of the moon, or I will cook and set intentions with that setting intentions, is basically saying, this thing is going to help me with this thing. But because witchcraft is so broad, it's such a broad topic, and so many for every single witch that exists, we will have a different definition of it. Witchcraft, in my opinion, is doing a spell or setting intentions or putting your will out into the universe to get something to happen in return. I also go ahead, I see your

Nick VinZant 4:40

is it any different than the idea of like praying for something when you get right down to?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 4:45

So I think yes, and now it is similar to praying the difference that I've seen in a lot of witches and the thing that we talk about a lot is that a spell by itself is not going to do anything. And what I mean by that is, if I do a spell to get a job interview, and I don't actually, or to get a job, and I don't actually do any interviews, I don't go out of my way to try and get this job. What does that spell gonna do? It may cause a miracle, like a miracle to happen, and helped me get a job without me applying anywhere. But with every kind of spiritual or metaphysical act we take, we have to take an active one, action and return. So while I was praying sometimes, because a lot of the I mean, I know a lot of witches that are x Christians. And they said that the difference is with praying, praying doesn't fix everything, in the same way that doing a spell doesn't fix everything. There's always a little bit of real world action you need to take in order to push it there, push it out into the universe, I kind of call it spiritual insurance. So if I have a feeling that if I know that someone is gonna get back to me about a job offer, and I'm just using jobs, as long as you know, I get you, right. And I want to be sure that this is a good offer, and it's going to be an offer that I want to take. I may do a spell to help with help with that.

Nick VinZant 6:19

I was raised Roman Catholic, and the idea was right, okay, so you pray on it, you do this kind of thing. But it seems like witchcraft, it's a little bit the same. But then you got to actually go out and do this thing as well, right? Like, you can't just pray for the job, you got to update your resume. And that's like, hey, look, I'm serious. Yeah, um, I guess when you cast, like, if you're casting the spell, like, Who are you casting it to? The spell itself,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 6:48

totally depends on the practitioner. Because there are so many different witches, I'll speak to my experience, when I cast a spell, I am usually just kind of asking either the universe or a very specific spirit to help me with something. The idea behind the spell is that you take a bunch of things that rub have energy. So let's say we get a candle, which I have like a spell that I did recently, a candle like this, which is referred to as a nine day candle. It's a block breaker. And then you add some oils, and some herbs that may align with your intention for the spell, you may write something on a piece of paper, like intention, or chant or anything. The idea with spell crafting and casting spells is to raise energy and then kind of push it out. So raising energy can look a lot like very different for very different people. I'm always like a, I do prayers while a spell is going I'll play it pray the rosary, because I have that kind of element to focus on Facism in my practice, but other people will dance, they'll play music, they will meditate or go into a trance state in order to kind of bring their energy up and focus their energy on what they want to achieve. So with spell crafting, we have lots of different methods of doing it. Some people just burn things like they mix herbs and a piece of paper, and they burn it. Some people will like me will do like candles, which this one burn for like five days straight. Yeah. And then we also have like, there are different types of candles, too. I love candle magic, it's my favorite thing. But different ways of casting are different ways of kind of raising energy. So the idea is I'm putting all my energy into this candle, I'm putting my intention on the back, I have like what I want written out here. I'm putting herbs to help me help like that align with the spell and oils with it. And then I am praying over it or chanting over it or dancing while it's going to give it more energy. And as it's burning down. That energy is being sent up into the universe to your guides to the Deity you're praying to wherever you intend for it to go.

Nick VinZant 9:12

Is it results based, right? Like I think of my background kind of in being raised Roman Catholic, and you pray and you pray and you did this stuff. And if it didn't happen, then it wasn't God's will. Right. Yeah, that's just not what he wanted to do. Is it results based in the sense like, I cast this spell, it doesn't work.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 9:30

If my spell doesn't work, I know I did something wrong. I did something wrong, or one of the people that the spirits that I work with said, we're not doing this and there's a reason. So similar to kind of God's will. If the spell doesn't work. I'm like, maybe it wasn't supposed to happen, but there's also a chance that I messed it up and did it wrong. Most of my spells have worked fine. And there's one that didn't work. It was because there was an element of this fell out of my control, then that pissed me off. I can explain Do you want me to elaborate? Yeah, no, I, I paid money for something that I got custom made for my partner. And the person I paid it to then basically disappeared off the internet and took the money. So they scammed me, and I did a spell to get my money back. But what ended up happening is I did the spell and I basically did what I call a little tripwire I said, if you don't give me the money back, I'm gonna put like a minor little Jinx on you like, you're gonna stub your toe every day for a week very basic. And they didn't give me my money back. So I hope they've stubbed their toe plenty of times, because it was a lot of money. And I was not happy about it.

Nick VinZant 10:52

That stub in the toe is it. Like that's a little bit more major.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 10:58

People, when we talk about, you know, painful magic and hexes I think a lot of people have very, very misconstrued ideas of what that looks like. A lot of times, painful magic, hexes excetera came from a place of, of soup survival. So we see a lot of more painful magic and traditions where it was born out of like, for example, hoodoo, which was born out of African American slaves being brought over. We also see that in situations where other things are out of the person's control, they're not coming from a place of privilege or coming up from a place. Where is it for example, in Italy, there is a spell a love spell that you can do, to have someone you know, fall in love with you and stay with you. And part of the reason that exists is because in Italy, 2040 50 years ago, if a woman got married to a man, and that man fell in love with someone else, she would probably lose a lot of her financial stability. If he left her. He would she would be left alone with how many kids so you do the love spell to make sure your husband stays with you and you don't lose that financial security. And that's it a lot of different situations all over the world. Love magic to is also very present in bukata. Yeah, and it's very important in between Hatha Yoga, which is Mexican American or Latino folk magic.

Nick VinZant 12:29

Okay, so people just listening to this, right? The first if they're skeptical, the thing is going to be like, What? What are you talking about? Right, like? What is it? I guess a two part question, right? Like, what would you say to somebody who would be like, What are you talking about? And the other part of that, I guess, would be, is it really that different than the kind of Protestantism Catholicism? Is it really that different? Or are we just unused, not used to it? Right, like, good question. I'm used to going to church on Sunday, but you're doing what? Like it's

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 13:10

dancing with the devil in the moonlight. Hello, right. So the thing I would say to people who ask, What are you talking about is firstly, you know, I try to approach it from a specialty skeptic. So the, from the approach of, it's okay, if you don't give a shit about anything I'm saying, that's kind of where I always come from is the way that I live my life. And the way that I kind of go through my life is very much informed by the practice of witchcraft, which to me, looks like having spells on hand if I need something done having a spiritual team that works with me and helps me through things. But not everyone is going to look like that. Have something, have a practice that looks like that some people don't work with any spirits or deities or anything. Some people just do spells and it works for them. But I guess I, the metaphor that I like to use when someone's a skeptic, is breaking it down into kind of more mundane things. So if you have a test, tomorrow, you have a midterm test, and you know you have a test, you are going to take time out of your day and study correct. So you're kind of seeing something that is coming up that you want to do well in and you are taking actions necessary to do well in it. Witchcraft is very similar with their spells, it's this thing is coming up. Or this is an outcome I want. I'm gonna do these actions and also I'm just gonna make sure that the universe knows that's where I want to be. And of course, witchcraft is you know, informed by spirituality. Um, but believing that spells have power. And we as humans have the power to make these things happen without the without a God, without anyone around, which is kind of how it's different from Christianity as witches are not necessarily praying and praying and hoping someone answers. If my spirits don't respond, I take matters into my own hands, I just say, Alright, I'm going to do this myself. And that's kind of how I go about it. It's a huge tool, a lot of people, it's a huge reclamation of power, especially coming out of Christianity where God's will and God was very important. And this was okay. And this wasn't, because witchcraft doesn't really have a Set Rulebook on what to do. Everyone has their own morals and ethics that inform their practice. So my morals and ethics are going to be different from another practitioners and we all do our own thing. Some Witches are, you know, working with plants very heavily to cast spells, Some Witches are like me are doing heavy Spirit work, or they're calling on saints, or animal spirits or other spirits to help with their work. Someone just like I said, atheists, they do not believe in gods they do not think that a divine entity exists. So everything they do, is working within their own power and their own paradigm.

Nick VinZant 16:29

There's no Bible for which isn't necessarily is there, there is

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 16:32

no Bible. You do I say this like there. Of course, there are kind of widespread morals and ethics, like cultural appropriation is bad, don't take something from initiatory closed practice, when you are not initiated into that practice, don't like we have these kind of set morals and ethics as human beings that inform our witchcraft. But at the end of the day, the history of witchcraft has been very intertwined with the other with the oppressed with activism. So when you move into witchcraft, you are picking up a reclamation in the language of something that was used to oppress so many people. It was used to oppress indigenous tribes, it was used to oppress Jewish individuals, it was used to oppress people of color, when we think the terms black magic and white magic, the term black magic, when a lot of people hear that they automatically think of voodoo and hoodoo or painful spells. And that's something that media has done is taken voodoo and hoodoo, which are African Voodoo is an African traditional religion. And hoodoo is a practice that is very much made by and for African American individuals. They take that and they demonized it on media. So if anyone's listening to this, and they're like, I don't think like that. But you did think like that. It's okay. It's definitely something that's very normal. In not knowing anything about witchcraft, and having these ideas of what good witchcraft and bad witchcraft looks like. We have a lot of people who are coming to witchcraft from the position of seeing the craft a couple times and not knowing anything else, which is okay, there's always room to learn. But picking up witchcraft is picking up something, picking up a term and declaring yourself the term of something that has historically been used negatively. And part of being a witch in the modern day is recognizing the way it's been used historically, and say if you're not, you know, and being able to say okay, I understand how this term was used. And I am going to do everything I can to support those groups because there are definitely places in the world where witches still a terrible term, and when someone gets called a witch it's bad it can mean that they get punished in a certain way can mean they get thrown out.

Nick VinZant 19:04

You mentioned that it's become popular slash almost trendy, right? Like why do you think that that is?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 19:09

That's a really good question. And so once again, speaking mostly from my experience of myself, because every which I can I know like I have like three friends who are witches who may disagree with me on this, I'm witchcraft is about taking back control. It's about reclaiming your power and taking things into your own hands. Witchcraft has kind of always been like that. Even things that aren't witchcraft, like folk magic has been about you know, survival necessity. Taking matters into your own hands or help going to someone who can help you without having to like, fight for access to it. Too, two ish years ago, we had the pandemic going on. The first thing that happened was people had a huge loss of control. Everything about normal life was gone. So I wasn't surprised that in 2020, when I logged on to Tik Tok, and started posting about witchcraft, the response was my things going viral, and a lot of people being interested, because it allowed people to take back control and take back their power at a time when a lot of people who had never felt powerless before were feeling powerless. And a lot of people that had never experienced something in which their normal life was ripped out from under them, experienced it. In regards a lot of times the witches that I know, that had been around for a long time, had that happen, when they were kids, or something happened to kind of, you know, the nuts, not every single witch that's like a few of my friends and myself included, I had like something happen, where I needed, I turned to the universe, and I'm like, Hey, universe, I need you to tell me that this is the way I need to go. And when the universe responded, I moved in that direction. But witchcraft creates a space for people that may not be represented or may not feel represented, within particular religions, which is why I say a lot of witches may be ex Christians, because in Christianity, especially those who have experienced religious trauma, witchcraft appears as not only be a lot of times seen as the antithesis to Christianity, which may not be how everyone sees it. But it's how a lot of people see it as this kind of standing in a posle to oppression or dominant religion,

Nick VinZant 21:48

it seems to primarily attract women is way why is that is that I would say, am I wrong? Is that just a question?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 21:55

I think a lot of women are witches. I also think that there is a growing base of like, non binary queer individuals who are witches. I also know a lot of queer men who are witches. I do know some straight men too, that are witches. But I would say it's probably because a lot of people think that witchcraft is for women. I think that that is, I think that the historically the representation of witches have has been mostly women. And I chose her I think there are plenty of men out there who have an interest in it, but feel like witchcraft isn't for them. I mean, I think a lot of the a lot of public witches are probably women. But I do know a lot of witches who are men, and they're, they're good, although

Nick VinZant 22:43

this just could be completely me. Right. But I do feel like there is something about it, that doesn't appeal to men's nature as much. Okay, was that an unfair assessment nature? I have no idea. I have no idea. There's, you know what? Maybe because the rules are not, are not don't seem to be hard and fast, that there's not a guide book or a manual to it. A rigid system

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 23:17

is that I do fears that just see you.

Nick VinZant 23:21

It is most people that I know. But then again, of course I live in. I live in my own bubble, right. So take that for whatever it's worth.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 23:31

It's one of those things where you have to create your own manual. I have like, two to, to spell books that I've been keeping track of since I was 16, all my spells and now I'm pretty well informed of what works and what doesn't. But there is like a trial and error process when you begin because you're going in aware that something you find in a book may not work for you. And it may be a completely different path. Now we have a lot more kind of literature on witchcraft that allows people to see kind of what different practitioners do for different things and different paths and different traditions. And it allows a little bit more flexibility to like maybe this feels right or maybe this feels right, versus when I was starting when I was like 16 We just had like a couple books on Wicca and Tumblr. And because of that now there are more ways for people to explore and create that manual for themselves. But it definitely does kind of come from you go in and you make your own set of ethics and morals and what you're okay with or what you're not okay with. Like personally if I need to I do not mind Hexing someone but someone else may never want to do any kind of painful magic and that's okay. It doesn't make them any less of a witch versus me is if I need to make someone stubbed their toe for a week straight. I don't care But my morals and ethics revolve around when I do that. So am I going to do that randomly to random people? No, am I going to wait until I really feel like it's necessary to get the point across or to protect myself or others? Yes. So I probably won't go the whole nine yards and do a hex frequently, but when I do, I'm like, Alright, we're gonna go get like a bunch of cockroaches and pour them into a jar. And ya know, it's painful magic is very much like, not pretty, a lot of witchcraft is not pretty, it's something that you see a lot of witchy aesthetics online, but not everyone scrap practice looks like that. Or is that visually appealing, and not everyone has access to the is able to access the same kind of ingredients that another practitioner may be able to get easily, which is why it's such a broad spectrum of people who identify as witches, someone may do a spa with a candle and really nice herbs and do that. And someone else may take a little birthday candle, sprinkle some salt around it, set the intention, and that's their spell. It's so wide and varied the pads traditions, what people have access to. And it allows us to all kind of do something similar, but every single practice is different. If you brought a another witch on, they probably would have different answers as to how they define witchcraft than I would. Because some people I know define it by communing with land spirits, or working with the land or invoking spirits versus I consider those who do spells and witches, but also there are other elements of witchcraft, like activism, or certain things that I consider part of my practice as a witch, whereas someone else may say, witchcraft is this and not this. So it's really interesting, because there's so many of us. And that's why I don't know a lot of people like the fact that you go in, and there's like, a bunch of different ways to do one thing. And then sometimes you just create a new path,

Nick VinZant 27:25

I can see why it's appealing. The idea of you can take control, and you can do it your way.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 27:30

Skeptics always come to me and they're, like, prove witchcraft is real. Um, here's the thing is, I can't prove witchcraft is real to you. I can't sit here and give you the evidence that you would consider real and make you happy about that. Like, you can't do that. But I tried to approach it from if it's working for people, and they believe in it, and it's not harming you. Why are you so upset, I try to hit come from that place of I am minding my business. And then some people get angry because someone recently was angry because they feel like everyone who is a witch and believes in witchcraft and sells services, like tarot readings, or spells is a scammer, which I can't really control that person's thoughts. That's their own kind of their own opinion. And I'm not going to change it, especially if they really strong like, feel really strongly about that. And I kind of come to the point of when skeptics are kind of, there's been like an influx of them on tick tock recently, but one skeptics are like, personally, so I know it's real, cursed me and prove witchcraft is real. I just say no, because there's the position of there's two types of skeptics, they're skeptics that are really interested in actually want to hear how it works, and maybe try it for themselves and see if there's anything to it. And then there are skeptics who are trying to get you to debase yourself and do something for like, cast a spell on them. And then they say that no matter what the you know, it doesn't, they aren't going to think anything's gonna happen. I can't go to a skeptic, WHO IS WHO 100% does not believe in witchcraft and doesn't have any interest in learning anything about witchcraft and tell and convince them that it is real, because they're not going to be convinced there's no way for me to convince them. I kind of come from the position of you know, if people believe in it, it's real. That's something that my friend who is a folklorist told me is with folklore. It doesn't matter if at one point it was real or not real if people believe it is now real, because someone out there believes wholeheartedly. Many people believe that it is wholeheartedly how the world works and that that exists. Who are you to Hold them know if you don't know anything about it.

Nick VinZant 30:02

But is there times in your life that you've been like, I cast this spell? And this worked? It reinforced? Is there times you would say like this reinforcement, like, I know whether it's true or not, who cares?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 30:19

I was going to me. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 30:21

this this word.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 30:24

I think I have that happen a lot with asking if there's like a greater power in the universe. You know, like when I asked for, because I when I was 16, what got me into witchcraft. And what brought me too, that was, I asked, literally just the universe. I'm like, if anyone's listening, can you send me a sign to do something like, so I know, I'm making the right decision. And I was on a walk with my family and a blue jay came down right in front of me. And like, looked at me and went away. And I was like, that's it. And I just knew, in that moment, I'm like, someone's make someone has my back in this. I didn't know who it was at the time. But I'm like, someone made sure like someone heard me when I like prayed or asked for help. And then I was like, I started looking into animal symbolism and paganism. And that brought me to witchcraft. And I'm like, Okay, if I know someone is listening, when I just pray, when I just ask, what's going to change when I actually start putting more energy behind that and really solid intentions. I've had a couple of things where like, I set like I set up a spell a while ago, and I guess, like, I don't know, my entire life has been a combination of like, realizing that things I'm on like, I'm going on the right path. One of the things was when I was I did like, when I started getting into Italian folk magic, and venerating my ancestors. And I was like, I don't know, you know, I may not ever, like, make this my full practice Boileau spoiler alert, it became my full practice, but like, I may not ever make this my full practice. I took a class with someone. And like, there's just a moment where like, everything that I had known about my witchcraft practice, up to that point, fell away. And I was left with my ancestors, Italian folk magic and one goddess. And I said, I guess this is where I'm like, this is where I'm supposed to be. I've had things happen to were like, Oh, my favorite one. Oh, this is the this is the one that if you're going to include any of this include this one, I did a spell where I was half asleep. And I in my head popped in, like the image of four coffin nails wrapped in red thread. And I wrote it down because it felt important. And I also wrote down other things that were popping into my head. Like this was a spell, I had to do it on the Eclipse and I set it up. So I did this whole spell I nailed for coffin nails as part of the spell into the four corners of my house. Later, I had connected with some Italian Canadian folk practitioner. And I'm like, Yeah, I did this spell ones with four coffin nails in the four corners, and he they go, That's so crazy. We have almost the exact same spell in my family. When I was like, what and so I had no usage of coffin nails, I had never read anything about using coffin nails as protection or anything like this. And this spell just kind of popped up out of nowhere, like call it intuition call it ancestors call it the universe, whatever you want. But then later, I got confirmation that this is actually a spell that a lot of Italian folk practice Italian American Italian Canadian families have and do it was like slightly modified, but it was the same idea of coffin nails placed near entrances are in four corners to protect against to protect the home. And I know like I always thought, I always think like, maybe it was a coincidence. Maybe I saw it somewhere in my subconscious brought it but for me, that was like a I'm, yeah, that's that's kind of it made it feel real to me, even if other people hear that and they're like, could have been a coincidence. Yeah. But to me, it was one of those things where I'm like, there is no way that I just came up with this.

Nick VinZant 34:45

I don't want to kind of go back and forth like well, you know, like, Well, what about this, right? Because you can pick apart kind of anything, right? Like you could, and so I don't, I feel like that's not the point. Yeah, necessarily this conversation Right, because you could say this. And then you could say this. And I could say this, but it's the idea that like, we're trap. All right? And the thing is, is like, nobody fucking knows that really.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 35:13

Nobody knows if God's real either but a bunch of people wholeheartedly believe in God and then informs their entire experience. So why is me lighting a candle any different?

Nick VinZant 35:25

That's one thing that I am fascinated by right is the idea. I personally believe like, Look, do whatever you want young played a spaghetti monster in the sky? I don't care people do do right. If it makes you happy to do what you want to do. Are you ready for some? Listener? Harder slash listener submitted question. I'm

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 35:44

ready. Let's do it.

Nick VinZant 35:46

Some of them are like, favorite spell? Oh,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 35:49

good question. I love a good protection spell. I also love a spell, which is found very present in Italian American folk magic, where you take someone's picture, bind it, which basically is wrapping it with a thread and you put it in the freezer, and it's supposed to freeze them and stop them in their place, or freeze them out of your mind and make you stop thinking about them. I use that very frequently. It's like a little sympathetic magic type thing. And sympathetic basically just means this is like this. So this is that.

Nick VinZant 36:22

So do you do it with people you don't like or people you do like or both?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 36:25

Like, I've done it, maybe twice. And one time, I did it with someone. And it didn't feel like it worked. And I was upset about it. And then I went into back into the freezer to look for it. It was gone. It disappeared out of the freezer. I'm assuming someone found it and threw it out. But I was like No wonder this doesn't didn't work. It's gone. It's gone.

Nick VinZant 36:51

Is it more reserved? I guess for like, the important things in life or people. I'm going to cast this spell so there's no line at the drive thru kind of.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 37:01

That's a really good idea.

Nick VinZant 37:02

I have not done that actually is a good idea.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 37:05

I did do I did put on there was this fast lock oil. I put on fast luck oil to get above Boston Cream doughnut. It worked.

Nick VinZant 37:15

I mean, Boston Cream is probably the best. No,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 37:17

I'm gluten free too. So we went to the gluten free bakery. And sometimes they're out of Boston creams. And I'm like, I'm gonna put on this oil and ask for Boston Boston Cream. got there, there was one left. And I was like,

Nick VinZant 37:28

That's luck. Honestly, that's the only proof I would just tell that story. And I think ever the audience of skeptics would be like, Oh, fuck

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 37:36

that. Like, it's really a lot of witches, I know do very mundane thing. This is very much focused on you, your needs, whether that's monetarily, you know, financially, whatever. Um, it's focused on your needs. It's focused on the needs and the protection of the people around you. But sometimes you just feel like, I'm just gonna, I really want this to happen. And sometimes it's like, I really want concert tickets, like I really want to be able to get good seats. So you may cast a spell to help you get good seats, and then you're all set. Or for me, it was a Boston Cream doughnut. That was my like, I really want this doughnut this morning, please.

Nick VinZant 38:14

What is the most significant day of the year for you? Like is there a day where I want to?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 38:20

Oh my god. So for me personally, the most significant day is called the festival of St. John the Baptists and it's right around mid summer. A lot of people celebrate what is known as the modern meal of the year which comes from Wicca, which is for the two equinoxes the two soul surfaces and then for Celtic fire festivals. I don't follow that. But I do celebrate the solstice is incredible. Like I go very hard for solstices. I'm like mulled wine, dancing under the moonlight, full nine yards, um, but the festival of St. John the Baptist is really big in Italy and we make something called a lot of folk practitioners make something called St. John's water. So you collect a bunch of different plants that have medicinal and magical properties. So this year, I did like Molin, St. John's wort, like all these different plants, and they're typically picked fresh, but you can also pick them dried, or add dried stuff, and then you put a bunch of water over it and you let it sit out overnight to kind of absorb all the moisture and the dew. And in the morning, you wash your hands and you're like your hands and face in it and it's supposed to bring in like good luck and it blesses you. And so I keep mine year round and I use it for like all sorts of magical purposes. But the important thing about it is that you can only make it on this one night on this festival of St. John the Baptist, which I think is this year was the 23rd to the 24th it's usually like very close to mid summer. So I have like the summer solstice And I celebrate the summer solstice and do things for that. And then I do the festival of St. John the Baptist make. It's called LaQua de San Giovanni St. John's water, or say the festival of St. Sun Giovanni. And then the winter solstice is also really big for me. So that's not even just one, it's two. Then the winter solstice, I will do I celebrate Christmas because Christmas for me is about family. And it's something I've always done with my family. So I still celebrate it even though I do not. I'm not a Christian. So do Christmas. I do the winter solstice, and then I celebrate the Epiphany, which is an Italian tradition. So I go like winter has like three holidays all backed up one after the other. And then summer has like two holidays backed up. So I do the solstice is the kind of big events that I really center everything around because it's a halfway point for the seasons. It's like the longest day of the year and the shortest day of the year are great days to do magic to cleanse to reset. I'm not very good with celebrating the equinoxes. I will say that I kind of forget about them. But the other one is All Souls Day or salan also known as Halloween or All Hallows Eve that's a really big day for me as well and those are kind of the three major ones that I will go really ham for like I'll plan rituals out and I will get materials and then everyone's from I have like the festivals of certain spirits I work with, like no Morelia is Diana's Festival. Today is the festival of St. Michael Archangel I made him garlic, mac and cheese. So I'll try to like do little things on those days. But when I really go hard is like the solstice is I'm like, wake up, we're cleaning the house. We are doing all these things. And so for me, those are the two important days but depending on tradition, depending on if what kind of pagan the person is. Or if the person's a pagan or Christian or Jewish, they may have very different holidays. I know a Jewish witch who considers like Rosh HaShana, one of the more important like the High Holidays is very important.

Nick VinZant 42:17

Is it something about the day or is it just the tradition of the day Solstices

for I guess any of them really? So

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 42:24

depends. If we're looking at like the solstice is the day itself, the summer solstice is the longest day of the year. So the longest day of the year, is associated with like partying, getting ready for the days to grow shorter. We see midsummer celebrations, spreading back centuries. So the solstices and the equinoxes it is about the day itself. Same with kind of the festivals of St. John's, but it definitely depends on who you ask,

Nick VinZant 42:57

what are painful spells, and are they looked at as being forbidden is the word that they use, but are they looked at in a negative light? negative light? That would be a

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 43:11

really great question. I think that I discussed this a little earlier. But I think that painful magic does get a bad rap. For a lot of people don't spend a lot of time learning about painful magic. There are certain traditions in which and certain practitioners that will not do painful magic because of their morals or ethics. Wicca has something called the threefold law where it's the idea that anything you do will be sent back to you threefold not everyone follows it in Wicca but a lot of weekends do. Um, I talked earlier with someone who is a practitioner is also Hindu. And they talked about how, because of Hinduism, Jainism they do not cast painful magic they do not they do not do something that could harm people, animals the Earth. versus me, I do not I mean, I'm not gonna go out of my way and like, throw hexes willy nilly, but I don't have a problem getting my hands dirty if I need it. If I'm like, if it's someone and I typically save that for people who are like the worst of the worst, like so think, rapists, abusers, pedophiles, that's who I target. That's why I go after I don't go after people who like piss me off for no reason. I'm like, I don't have the energy. So to some people, it would be something that they would never think of doing and they just don't do it. A lot of fold practices do you have those darker spells? Because folk magic is magic of the people. And someone probably needed that to survive and when any way shape or form. And because painful magic is informed by survival and the language of those who have been oppressed. You're gonna see it a lot more in certain folk magics. That doesn't mean they're always going to and I say this There are always going to be people that use painful magic inappropriately. There's always going to be someone who gets pissed off by something you've said and hexes you for no reason other than you piss them off or you disagree with them. Depending on the practitioner, you ask, I believe that if your intention is kind of shoddy, like if you're just doing it to be petty, I don't think it's going to work as well as like really pure, in like, intention of like, I really did something new. But there are other people that argued that at the end of the day, if that person casted that spell, and they put enough energy and rage behind it, it's gonna hit you no matter what, I kind of believe a little bit less a little bit of that. If someone's intention is petty, and they aren't a great hexar, I'm not super concerned. But if they are a fantastic hexar, and their intention is petty, I'm pretty sure I'm still gonna feel it no matter what. Because they know how to do it. But at the end of the day, really depends on who you ask for me, I come from the position of I use it when necessary, like, and I read something recently that I think is really good to live by, if you wouldn't do it in real life, don't do it in magic. If you aren't prepared to face the consequences of what could come from it, don't do it. Which is why my all my little like, painful magic is kinda like, stub your toe for a week.

Nick VinZant 46:26

So this one just says like, what could you give us an example of a spell?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 46:30

Oh, yeah, I love examples of spells. So I just spell recently, um, for making sure I'm protected when I'm driving, because I will have a lot of car anxiety. So I took a bag. And I added a bunch of everything about what I added. I did like a little, I took a Black Candle at the St. Anthony, because I wanted to petition St. Anthony for the spell. So this is like usage of things. But I took a bag, I filled it with things that are protective. So herbal herbs that have protective qualities. I also added some porcupine quills, which is kind of like protection as well. And then I took a little like picture of St. Anthony and put it in there. Or maybe I did a picture of St. Mary that maybe I may put St Mary on there and sort of see Anthony I put one of the saints in there. I'm planning on its long garlic, like a bunch of different protective herbs, and sealed the bag and then made a candle with the intention of safe travels or protecting me while I drive and poured some wax from the candle on there. I also do this thing, I create sigils which are from originate from chaos magic, you take an intention. And by process by a particular process or ritual, they eventually become a symbol that is like just a symbol. So I take that symbol, put it in the bag and charge it which basically means giving an energy under the candle or by way of carving it into the candle. And so then everything I do with the candle spell feeds, the term that I created and the bag that I made. When another example is a money bowl, which I actually have, I can actually show it we there's my money ball. It's just a gravy bowl with a bunch of coins around it. I put, like there's cash in here, there's a bunch of herbs to draw in money. I have two different money drawing oils in here. And then some citrus, so I have like a bunch of different things to draw on money, and then I have the capability of adding money and taking it out. So whenever I add money, it's like the intention of bringing prosperity in and then taking money. It's like almost like an act of working to bring in prosperity. I also have a rosary in here because Mary,

Nick VinZant 48:57

have you ever had one like backfire? So that's a yes, that's it when I was

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 49:03

16. Someone who I was friends with and treat me very kindly, and I had just gotten into witchcraft. I'm like, You know what I'm going to do, I am going to hex this person. It's really bad idea. So I took a lemon and put their name in the lemon and put a bunch of like gross stuff in it and I hung it outside my window and hung it outside my window and I just left it there because it's supposed to be left to its own devices which by the way with Hexing if you're ever interested in painful magic, my advice is do not shit where you eat, do not do hexes and keep them like in your house or anywhere near you because it's just a bunch of bad energy. Like you gave that even if you don't believe in like doing anything, you gave that spell so much rage. Now that rage is sitting in your house. So I opened the window one day and the lemon law Hold down, fell, rolled down the roof and landed in my parents gutter, the gutter outside my parents window. And then I went to college. And I was at college for two a year. And in the car up there, my mom, I said to mom, dad, hey, by the way, there's an active curse in the gutter, you should probably get rid of it. And they were like, What did you just say? And I'm like, just like bury it at the crossroads. And they're like, there's no Crossroads around here that we can bury it. They're all like pavement. And I'm like, okay, it sat there for four or five years. And through the entire four or five years, there was just a lot of things that happened, that were not great. Like they weren't awful, but they weren't great. Like they were not fantastic. And then I think in 2020, I took the lemon out and finally burned it. And all of a sudden, all of those things that had happened kind of reversed. So I am I'm still blamed for everything that happened. I was like, Yeah, remember when you did that? Remember when you hex our family and I'm like, please, sorry.

Nick VinZant 51:09

Are you ready for some of the more lighthearted ones? What is your favorite depiction of a witch in movies? That's

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 51:16

a really good question. That's actually a really good question. Because so many of them are so bad. So let's

Nick VinZant 51:23

let's do best and

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 51:27

doll. It is awful. The witches by Roald Dahl and I'm referring to the newest movie with like, their look, it's like the biggest anti semitic stereotype in a witch I've ever seen. Like they eat children. They have scales, they like have bird feet. It is so many bad Slyke tropes packed into one. And I'm like, Oh God, please. No. So were those the witches of the worst one of the best ones I would say is probably between the craft the 90s and Practical Magic. Practical Magic is like apart from like the Necromancer like raising your dead boyfriend, which like we don't actually do it, but like using whipped cream to make a pentagram. And as he goes, You don't have anything else, or like the garden be like that's the most accurate portrayal of what actual witchcraft can look like, of like, you got a bad spirit in the yard and the bushes are dying, or they're like weird omens everywhere. But one of those the Practical Magic is good. The craft was a little bit more cinematic in terms of what they did it in spells like changing your hair color, or changing your eye color. So but it's still like one of the representations that is better rather than bad. So I always recommend it. The Practical Magic and even like the series of Practical Magic, the books themselves are not like in AP completely inaccurate. It's a lot of like, going out in the garden and making herbal tinctures. And like we're just making things with whipped cream because you don't have a pen. That's very accurate.

Nick VinZant 53:18

How do you my wife and I one of our favorite movies is Kiki delivery. So I'd love to live.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 53:22

I wish we I wish we had rooms everywhere that we could ride. We don't but I wish because I would love to be Kiki. I'd love to be able to ride a broom and deliver things like that's the life.

Nick VinZant 53:35

Fantastic job. That sounds so much fun. I mean, have you really tried Oh yeah.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 53:39

I grabbed a broom one time and jumped. I felt nothing we had do have brooms, however, are considered protective. The Italian folk magic, this may be different, different cultures. But in Italian folk magic, we put a broom by the front door, it protects from witches because we just have to count every bristle of the broom before they can enter the house. Same with salt, they have to count every salt green before they enter the house and mustard seeds. So there's this idea that to keep bad spirits out. You give some you put something by the front of your house that the witch or the bad spirit would have to count a bunch of times and it would take them forever to like get in. So they just give up.

Nick VinZant 54:24

Yeah, that's interesting. I always associated it with them like using the oh

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 54:30

you can use it to I mean I sweeping is very big. For me, I like you can sweep things out. You can sweep things in I have a cinnamon broom by my front door. Whenever I clean my room I sweep the sediment broom in to bring in prosperity. To get rid of negative energy in a room throw salt into four corners sweep inwards to purify. And also brooms are probably big because a lot of witches historically would be doing a lot of cleaning. They'd be the people who would stay at home they'd be women. So they would be using that broom or that kind of mundane object for spiritual things.

Nick VinZant 55:08

What should I do if I want to try this, but I'm not ready to try this?

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 55:12

I get that. Okay, that's a really easy question. I mean, genuinely just start looking into it. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to cast any spells. And you can buy books about witchcraft and read them. Or learn about the history of witchcraft or watch YouTube videos or anything like that. You don't have to do a single spell until you're ready.

Nick VinZant 55:35

When you did that first one, where you kind of like, alright, this is gonna work or were you I thought it was gonna work doing

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 55:41

my opinion, it falling into this particular like, the first spell I did, or the curse I did.

Nick VinZant 55:48

Oh,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 55:50

oh, so the first spell I did both was a spell for a snow day. Because I wandered off from school, very much high school things. And it worked. And I kind of went to bed with like, a, I don't know if this is gonna work or not, it works. And I was like, guess I'm a witch. Now. This is a thing. I got a snow day.

Nick VinZant 56:11

I guess as a teenager, I would be like, no matter who you are, he would be like, this is the only possible conclusion to come to.

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 56:17

And it was like that we were probably gonna get a snow day anyway. But I was like, I just want to make sure that it happens. So I always approach spells where it's like, I want to make sure that this goes the direction I want. Especially if it's something like, like, I'm like getting an offer from publishers for a book. It's like, I want to make sure this is a good offer. So I'm gonna do a little spell to make sure of that. Most useful items. That's a really good question. I gotta think about that. Depending on who you ask, they're gonna have different answers. I am a fan of just pen and paper. You can do a lot with pen and paper. You can write out a petition, you can write out an intention, you can draw a sigil. You can write someone's name, and do something with it. second favorite is I use a lot of animal bones. In my practice, they are all ethically sourced, but I use a lot of like porcupine quills, rabbit heels. And then lastly, is candles because I'm a I love candles, you can do so much. We'd like a birthday candle and a chant. And I love that.

Nick VinZant 57:29

Is it anything that you think we missed? Oh,

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 57:31

I mean, if people are interested and like want to know more, I have like, I have a book I wrote, which hold on. I have a copy here. It's called spots for change by Frankie Castaneda. And so it's like a beginner's guide to starting witchcraft, or a beginner or a non beginner can pick it up and then have a practice or have a good idea of what witchcraft is after. And obviously, you know, it's informed by my practice, but like, it's one of those bigger books that it is very much catered to someone who maybe doesn't have any I anything, know anything about witchcraft. Um, and then I have a YouTube too. And like, that's where I do most of my educational stuff is I talk a lot about spells. Folk magic. I did an interview recently with Dr. Angela puca, who did her PhD in Italian folk magic, which was really fun. I was like, Oh, my God, this is happening. Yeah, and that everything. You can find out everything as chaotic withdrawn. If you want to follow me on tick tock, I wouldn't recommend it. It's all joke videos. So if you're really interested in like learning do the book. Oh, I also have a podcast that I run with Matt, who's my friend and he is an indigenous folklorist. And we are doing a series on regional folk magics right now. That is books and broomsticks.

Nick VinZant 58:57

For somebody who kind of wants to get into it like what video would you recommend they start with what episode

Frankie Castanea (Chaotic Witch Aunt) 59:03

with books and broomsticks? Let me pull it up because I'm like, I don't know. I mean, starting from the beginning, as we talk cover a lot of different things. But we have episodes on like witchcraft in the internet. Gatekeeping is a good episode. If you want us to mess around, you can hear us talk about mistakes, mistakes we've made in our practice. I would start with my YouTube and then move on to books and broomsticks. Because books and broomsticks is more like someone who already knows witchcraft and wants to hear us talk about particular topics. The book that I wrote is the most beginner friendly stuff I have. And then YouTube is kinda like I would starting a series that will be more beginner friendly, but really, if you're going through it and you're interested in anything you'll be able to see and hear me talk about processes that about spells, things that I do in my practice what being a witch kind of looks like. And I also am very responsive on YouTube for questions. If you're like, what does this mean? I'm like, I got you.

Gambling and Sex Addiction Researcher Dr. Joshua Grubbs

Their allure is all around us, but why do some people get addicted and others don’t. Dr. Joshua Grubbs studies addiction, specifically gambling and sex related addictions. We talk problem gambling, porn addictions, identifying and treating addictions and the most addictive things. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things You Shouldn’t Buy Cheap.

Dr. Joshua Grubbs: 01:21ish

Pointless: 47:23ish

Top 5: 01:12:28ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.joshuagrubbsphd.com/ (Dr. Grubbs’ Website)

https://twitter.com/JoshuaGrubbsPhD (Dr. Grubbs’ Twitter)

Interview with Dr. Joshua Grubbs: Gambling and Sex Addiction Researcher

0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode addiction, and the top five things you don't want to buy cheap,

0:22

people seem to be more attached not to the win. But to that moment, right before they know whether it's a win or a near miss. Some most people are like, Oh, I bet you people lie because they don't want to share about their sex line. It's actually not typically that it's the issue for getting the truth for people is that our own perceptions of our behaviors shape what we see about ourselves. So anything you do, that makes you safer, and more likely to wake up tomorrow, even in the midst of your addiction, that's breaking part of the cycle.

0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It helps out the show and more than anything, we just like hearing from people. So I want to get right to our first guest. He's an addiction researcher who specializes in gambling and sex addiction. This is Dr. Joshua Grubbs. What is addiction? Basically,

1:23

it's not an easy answer. This is one that if you ask them on the street, what is an addiction? I think they might actually be able to come up with a answer more quickly than most psychologists or specialists could because this is something that's still debated. Now, broadly speaking, when we say addiction, what we tend to mean is a pattern of excessive or compulsive behavior or behavior that's out of control, someone feels like they cannot stop, but they try to stop but they can't. Even though that behavior is getting in the way of their lives, it's causing problems. Normally, most professionals would also say that there's a chemical piece as well, right? There's this notion that there's things going on in your brain with neurotransmitters typically being altered via and the introduction of a chemical from outside the system. But the core of it is this inability to stop despite consequences. Despite wanting to stop.

2:17

Is this something that happens to us kind of over time? Or are people like born? And imagine you could look at the baby brain? And like, yep, that person is going to be addicted to something like, are we born this way? Or do we become this way?

2:31

So right, that's getting right at the core of nature versus nurture, which is at the heart of psychology, which we've been fighting about for as long as the field has existed? The answer is yes. Right. So genetics are a huge portion. If you are the child of people with addictions, you are more likely to develop that even if you were, you know, adopted at birth. But environment is a huge factor. So things happen along the way that make it more likely. And then personal decisions, as well as societal factors. You know, someone might have a predisposition developing an opioid addiction, but never really encountered opioids in daily life, because they never had an accident that left them needing pain medication. So yes, the genetic piece the being born with the piece is there for some people. But whether or not that leads to addiction is completely based on environment. And there's some people that come from families with no history of addiction whatsoever, that then due to life circumstances due to things that happen in them developing. So it's a little bit of both, and it varies from person to person.

3:32

So could it be like a situation for me, like I use myself as an example, I could be incredibly addicted to let's use something benign Nerds candy, but I've never had Nerds candy. And then one day, it's just, boom, I'm off the rails.

3:48

In theory, yes, certainly could happen there. There are, you know, documented cases of people that never had a problem with addiction in their life get prescribed an opioid. And then it seems like they can never come off of it, right. And so that that sort of thing. So they get prescribed oxy. And then it just never goes away. So that that happens, that's less likely more often than not, there's these complex factors. And it's not just one exposure. But there are cases that it is it seems like that one exposures and often sets it all off.

4:16

Do people usually know it? Like, did they know that they're addicted? Or the friends and family kind of spot it first

4:22

most in my clinical work? Most of the time? Yes, they get there tends to be in awareness. I mean, the consequences become severe enough that they have and they realize they can't stop even when they want to. Right. So often one of the criteria we look for in diagnosing addiction is well, having tried to stop and fail. If you've tried to stop you've typically acknowledged that something's wrong, right? And so there's an awareness that something's going right now what's interesting is we actually see with certain behaviors, they say viewing pornography, or sexual behavior, people will say they have an addiction even when they don't have one. And so there's actually an over reporting with some behaviors, and other behaviors are less likely to be report Like, traditionally, people with an alcohol problem, often take a little longer to realize the problem than say, maybe someone that was dealing with an illicit drug problem. There's just like social norms and awareness might lead someone to really I mean, the reality is that if you're using something like heroin that you're buying off the street, it doesn't take long to realize, like, maybe this isn't the best. And this is probably a sign that something's wrong. Whereas if you're, you know, having three drinks a day afterward, it evolves into four evolves into five evolves into six, it may take longer for you to realize, like, whoa, wait a minute, this is this is a lot, this is a problem.

5:39

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you specialize basically in gambling and sex addiction, those areas? Yeah. Is that are they fundamentally different than other types of addiction? Or is addiction addiction? It's just, instead of like, an apples, you like oranges?

5:55

So the answer you get to that question is going to vary by the research professional you talk to I'm definitely the one that says they are fundamentally different and functionally the same, which sounds like a weird distinction. And it is, in practice, with consequences in life with how it affects your relationships, how it affects your work, how it affects your day to day living, they are functionally the same as most other addictions, you know, at the end of the day, and out of control behavior pattern that leads your relationships to fall apart, that leads you to get fired from jobs that lead you to go into debt, that leads you to perform, I mean, to do things that are maybe not legal to support it, whether it's heroin, or sex, or gambling, they're all functionally looking the same. But fundamentally, I think when we really start parsing out what's going on underneath the surface, in the brain, and in in the complex psychological processes leading to it, I think there are some differences, I am of the opinion that there's maybe a difference between what we would call a compulsive behavior, which would be something like sex or gambling and a true addiction, which we would say maybe as a substance that you've developed and dependence on. But that that's very hotly debated. And so I would say this is my opinion, as a scientist and a professional that works in this space, and that you could find five other scientists and professionals that I strongly respect, they would absolutely disagree and say no, they're exactly the same.

7:26

How prevalent I guess, are gambling and sex addiction. Right? So

7:30

um, so if we're talking about prevalence, so I'll answer gambling first is super straightforward. somewhere between half a percent and 5% of the population has problems with that, I tend to think it's the number the best numbers I think are in that one to 2% range. So even 100 people, one of them probably has a gambling problem. That is more common than pressing B on your keyboard. But far less common than alcohol and nicotine, certainly less common than caffeine. Is it's, it's the type that again, if you think about your networks of people, you probably do know someone whether you know that you know or not, um, you probably do know, somewhat the game. Whereas if you think most of us we think about our networks of people, we know several people that have substance use issues somewhere along the way.

8:19

Yeah, sex is

8:21

is a lot more complicated. And the reason being is that it's hard to determine what is a dysregulated amount of sex and whether or not someone's self report is accurate? Here's what I mean by that. When we run nationally representative surveys, and I asked him, Do you think you're addicted to porn? A full 10% of American men will say, yes. That is an unbelievably high number. And I'm not trying to dismiss people's concerns. But if 10% of American men had a full blown addiction to true addiction to porn, we would expect there to be much larger societal consequences. I mean, the when we think about true addictions, we're talking about wages, lost work, missed relationships, falling apart, health problems, all of these things, none of those things are currently attached to porn use. So we actually see this phenomena with porn in particular, where people will overreported based on the fact that they're engaging in a behavior that makes them feel guilty and ashamed, but yet they still do it. And so there's the shame aspect with the SEC stuff. And that really complicates it if I guess I would say it's probably around that 1% mark, but I couldn't point to data that proved me right there.

9:30

That makes sense. I'll use like myself as an example right? Like I've certainly never missed work or anything like that. Or you know, like not spent time with family. But have I maybe looked at pictures when I probably should have been doing something else like yeah, so is that kind of

9:49

that like part of it? I mean, the big the lion's share of this shaming guilt phenomenon leading to someone thinking they're they have an addiction because They're, they're feeling guilty is in more conservative, more religious groups. And so if you look in conservative religious groups in the US and so I don't just so evangelical Christians are an obvious one here is but it's the same for the church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that the Mormon church. It's the same for Conservative Catholics. It's the same for several other denominations as well. It also occurs in the Orthodox Jewish community. There's an obsessive concern about how porn is ruining lives. And so there's a lot of messaging against pornography. So it's really heavily emphasized you should never look at more important is bad, it's evil. It's I mean, there's verses in the Bible that people quote saying, like, you know, this is literally committing adultery. So when you're viewing porn, you're you're committing adultery on your spouse, and you get this messaging in people's head. And so they think, Well, this is really bad. But yet, I'm still viewing it once a month, I must have an addiction. Because if, if it's this bad, and I can't stop doing it once a month, like, that means I'm addicted to it. And it's like, I've been up in porn for 30 minutes last month. And like, yeah, it created a lot of distress for you and probably created drama in your relationships. But that's just not the criteria typically associated with an addiction.

11:13

Yeah, that's kind of you and like I would, okay, so when what point would you say if you looked at like, Alright, now, this is a problem, somebody? Right? 30 minutes a day.

11:26

And so it's hugely variable, and it's going to vary on your your kind of life circumstances? And what's going on? What I would say is, are their objective consequences? So are you finding yourself you know, viewing porn, when you're at work, and it's creating problems. So I don't mean like, Okay, that one time, one year ago, I went to the bathroom with my phone, I mean, like, No, at my desk, I mean, every day. Or, or you find yourself spending multiple hours per day. So like, if you're in a situation where you're viewing porn for multiple hours a day, and it's getting in the way of work, or relationships or self care, like, Hey, you haven't showered six days, because spending eight hours a day viewing window, that's a that's a bad, like, that's not healthy, right? We are looking for those more extreme cases. And what the more common presentation is someone who might might go five or six days a week without viewing but then it's literally all weekend long, completely binge not engaged in any relationships whatsoever, just almost every waking moment. And again, these are extreme examples. But those are the types of examples that we see in therapy, that show up in some of the treatment studies as well of people that it's objectively ruining their life. I mean, and that sounds like a weird criteria to put out there. But I mean, that's what it is, is actually really creating major problems in your life, not your guilt about it, not your thoughts about it, but your actual behavior. Is that creating the problem? And if the answer is it's the actual behavior, then that's, that's a sign that something's going on that we probably want to work for with

13:08

sound. It reminds me kind of like, I went to journalism school. So it comes from that, right. Like the definition of obscenity is like, I can't tell you what it is. But I know it as soon as I see. Yeah,

13:18

there's a former Chief Justice of Supreme Court that actually said that about obscenities in forums recorded some bar papers of like defining porn is really hard. Defining obscenities are but you know, when you see addiction, I mean, there are right we use criteria like, you know, persistent patterns of dysregulation, but there's so much subjectivity in it about what impairment looks like. So if you told me, Well, you know, I'm an adult content creator, so I watch porn for three hours a day to get ideas, and I produce porn for two hours a day. Yeah, I actually enjoy that because that's who I am. I'm not going to tell that person that they have an addiction, even though they're spending five hours a day engaging with the art, right? Because it's a different context. But the person that says yeah, I'm, I'm spending, you know, couple minutes here or there, but then I go on these eight hour binges. And like, I got fired from me for doing that at work, or I don't spend time with any of my friends anymore. Because I have a free moment. I want to go to the porn. That's that's a more conservative and more It's easier with interpersonal sexual behaviors. If you tell me like, Yes, I'm constantly hooking up with strangers having unsafe sex, I cannot stop no matter what I try. I'm, I've had eight sexual partners last week. I don't remember who any of them were and it was all unsafe and unprotected. I'm going to be concerned. If you told me the same story and you're still being safe and protected. I'll be less concerned actually. But again, there's this when there's interpersonal sexual stuff, it's a little easier to pick up on them with safe Warren because we all have individual private sexual behaviors that getting norms were a little harder to establish.

14:54

I would imagine it's hard to get people to tell you the truth.

14:58

It is but not for the reason that you think So most people are like, Oh, I bet you people lie because they don't want to share about their sex life. And it's actually not typically that it's the issue for getting the truth from people is that our own perceptions of our behavior shape what we see about ourselves. So you'll have people we see this, it's actually pretty well documented with the people that game too much. So people that think they're addicted to games, if you actually measure how much time they're spending on games, and then ask them how much time they spend on games, they will over report they'll be they'll pick numbers that are sometimes twice three times as high as what they actually spent. So there's, there's this feeling something's wrong, so they inflated. And then the flip side people thinking, No, nothing's wrong, and so they downplay. And so our self perception, and this is actually true of all addictions. You know, there's this notion, sometimes in addiction therapy, that, Oh, you can't trust what your client says they're gonna lie to you. That's not what it is. Clients, people with addictions, people without addictions, we're not often very insightful about ourselves and our worldviews, our beliefs, our behaviors, our relationships, what we had for breakfast that morning, can all influence in that moment, what we recall of our own behaviors, and it changes what we say to the people. So yeah, it's hard to get honest reports, because I tell when I'm training new therapists that tell them you're not interested with therapy is not always about the objective truth. It's about their experience of their lives and getting to an experience of their life that's more positive, that's more that works for them. And so maybe that what they're telling you isn't entirely accurate, but it is what they think is accurate. So

16:36

is that is that because we I mean, are they in any way? Kind of? I don't know what the right phrase is self deflecting? Like they're not. They know what the truth is, but they won't admit it, or just that we as people are just bad at this.

16:49

Absolutely. Sometimes. That happens. Sometimes people are trying to hide and self deflecting and are being dishonest with themselves. I don't I don't I couldn't put a proportionate. But I would say I think it's probably more common that we just kind of lack insight. And so there are points in therapy as a therapist where I'm trying to push a client to say, Okay, if we really do an honest inventory of ourselves, right now, I think you're gonna come up with a different answer. But more often than not, it's you know, about reframing what's going on so that they can arrive. So it's not challenging them to be honest with themselves. It's, it's challenging them to think about it differently, which will then lead to different conclusion, which sounds like a small difference, but it is actually a pretty dramatic difference in in the room with how we're approaching things.

17:42

So when you look at like sex addiction, is it more prevalent amongst men, women,

17:48

undoubtedly, men, among people that self identify as having sex addiction that seek treatment from sex addiction, men are more common, and typically, it's heterosexual men. Despite the fact that bisexual gay men who have sex with men are actually typically much more sexually active and having more sexual encounters in their daily lives. It's typically heterosexual men that are identifying as having a sex addiction.

18:19

How come? Why do you? Why is that? Why would that? Why would it be?

18:23

So it's huge, huge, huge number of variables that go into play. One of the big ones is that same thing I was talking about was moral morality and shame and guilt and beliefs. Disproportionately the men who are dealing with conservative sexual values and feeling like they're violating are going to be men that identify as heterosexual right? If you're in a conservative religious group that says that viewing porn is evil, chances are you're also in a conservative religious group that says being anything other than heterosexual. So part of it is they're heterosexual by identification, because that's all they're allowed. So that's one factor. I mean, another factor is what's normative there. There are, you know, basic differences in sexual frequency desire drive, between men and women. I mean, it's very complex. And I don't want to get into like gender binary debates and all of that kind of stuff. Broadly speaking, on the whole, women are less likely to desire the frequency of sexual encounters as men. There's societal reasons for that. Whether or not they're biological is a separate debate. And so, heterosexual men are less likely to have partners that want sex as frequently as they are. And so there's a mismatch of desire. So one of the most common things you see in heterosexual marriages is desire mismatch, right? Where man wants more sex than woman. And instead of you know, working this throughout with compromise or therapy or conversations, man turns to porn and then he feels like he's using porn all the time. And It turns into this vicious cycle. Look, I'm not getting the sex I want. So I'm viewing porn, but I can't stop viewing porn. And when I tried to stop me when I couldn't, therefore having it, it just gets this this kind of spiral effect, where these, again, all of these things like it's hard to talk about it like, casually because there's so many different individual and then cultural variables that come into play. And I can imagine a counterpoint for everything that I'm saying. But on the whole, we see heterosexual men reporting it more. And it seems to be a combination of desire mismatch leading to other behaviors, and then the conservative sexual values

20:36

for gambling addictions, right, that gets it, I guess, what are they addicted to?

20:43

So it there's variability depending on the game of preference. In some case, some studies actually indicate it's an addiction to the ambiguity in the chance aspect of it. So what we actually have seen in repeated neurological studies in Curie activity size, they're just different paradigms that we use, people seem to be more attached not to the win. But to that moment, right before where they know whether it's a win or a near miss. So imagine on a traditional slot to really complicate matters on a more traditional slot setup, you've got your 347, whatever it is Rose, you know, spin, right. And they hit in order in whether it's a digital slot, or the old school traditional ones. They, you know, they they don't all stop at the same time, they stop one by one. So there's this build of like, Alright, I got this one. One logo showed up this one fruit to an old school slot machines. And the second one just hit the same. And there's this building anticipation, like, Ooh, what's going to be next. And then the third one hits this the same, and you're just waiting on that fourth one. And in that brief moment, there's this heightening of, I mean, everything inside like adrenaline kind of starts to pump. There's a lot of other kind of neuro chemicals getting involved bringing your attention into this moment really tying you into to what's about to hit next, what's going to be that last one. And what we find is that the arousal level actually hits the hardest. When you get you know, three, four, whatever it is in a row, and the last one misses, than when the last one hits. There's that near miss phenomena where there's this rush, and then the crushing disappointment, and that emotional roller coaster produces reactions and people that we crave, at a almost subconscious level. Now, yes, everyone loves winning. But if you won every time, it wouldn't be gambling, right? Like that's people aren't. So workaholism is not an actual addiction, right? You aren't addicted to going to work and making sure you get that paycheck every time. Like that's not a thing. It's the it's the uncertainty piece. That seems to activate something. Now there's there's theories about this a lot people will go back to evolutionary psychology and say that we're wired to seek uncertainty because uncertainty has the chance of better payoffs. I'm not entirely convinced by that argument. But there is something to be said said for humans like uncertainty. Even when we say that we don't we like a little bit ambiguity, we like surprises. And it seems to be that same process there. And that's for slot. I mean, it gets more complicated. We're talking about sports, and cards and things like that. But they all seem to be that same piece of that uncertainty, that moment of uncertainty. It's not when you when that hooks you, it's that uncertainty that you keep coming back for.

23:35

I would have never thought it that way. Right. Like I would have thought that they were addicted to the sensation of winning, but it sounds like they're really addicted to the sensation of almost winning and then losing

23:44

right. And if you talk to most gamblers boom, boom, you talk to most gamblers, they'll be like but no, it's the winning. And at a conscious level, it is the winning but when we look at what's happening underneath the surface, it is that bump bump roller coaster of that almost hitting it in the dropping, and then that makes the win even that much sweeter. Right? Because you've had you've gotten that ride, ride the roller coaster up and drop rides well, and then finally hits and it's like, yes. But again, it is that it's all built on on the losses like you have to have the losses for the winds to be appealing.

24:22

Does it matter the game like is somebody that is there a difference between the person who's addicted to blackjack versus craps versus poker versus slot machines?

24:32

So Blackjacks versus craps versus poker, actually, most often, there's not a whole lot of differences going on there. I joked that the difference between someone who has an addiction to poker, and the someone who's on the World Poker Tour is what how good they are right in there. It's not that that addiction isn't quite the same as what we're seeing with slots. In particular, and the reason being skill based games I has crafts is kind of watching it. So blackjack and poker have more skill pieces, poker being one of the most skill based games, with some chance interjected into it. And then everything gets progressively more chance based, those type of people that develop those problems. It's typically a complicated picture, based less on the inherently appealing nature of the game and more on what they're using the name for themselves. slots. i In practice, you see more people addicted to slots to sports, betting to Keno rare, more rare cases like extreme lottery ticket buying things like that. But for those people, there's often this clear use of the gambling as a detachment from something else going. So the very, we've documented this in a lot of our research, that people with PTSD, in particular are really drawn to slot machines to games that are very kind of zone out and just bring yourself into the game. So I mean, you could develop a slot machine problem without PTSD. But oftentimes, we see the slots functioning as a way of shutting out the rest of the world shutting off your internal world just being into with this one emotional roller coaster and not the rest of your life is chaos. Where that's a less common presentation for

26:29

poker like that. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

26:33

I'm always forced listener submitted questions.

26:36

Can people really break the cycle? Or do they just change one addiction for another,

26:41

people can absolutely break the cycle. And I would challenge people to think that breaking the cycle doesn't just mean total abstinence, you know, if someone in college was drinking, six, seven drinks a day living in a perpetual state of hungover to drunk and couldn't stop when they wanted, but then come to a point through either intervention or personal decision that they drink once or twice a month. That's breaking the cycle, right? That's breaking a cycle of what looks like an addictive behavior, even if they're not absence, even if they because they they've chosen to do things in a way that's safe. There's this notion in addiction treatment of harm reduction, anything you do that makes you safer, and more likely to wake up tomorrow, even in the midst of your addiction that's breaking part of the cycle. And so yes, absolutely. And I see people that go through recovery for one substance and never pick another one up. And yes, I see people the other way to that they just seem to change from one to the other. The person that had alcohol, the ghosts gambling, gambling goes to sex from sex, they go to hair, like yes, you see that. But more often than not, I see people that break the cycle or get to a safer place. And they don't they don't go back to that dark place again, and they move forward.

27:56

What's that? Like? I guess then what's the secret in the therapy? Or what's their secret? Like what did?

28:03

I mean, I don't think there's anything as far as I don't think it's a secret. I think it's a combination of, you know, getting getting the type of therapy you need. But a lot of people actually naturally remit which is it's hard for therapists to admit, but it's over half of people that have addictions, that recover, recover without therapists whatsoever. Like they just for some people, it is absolute, just white knuckling it through it. Other people, their lives change a relationship ends that was dragging them down for other people. It's a series of gradual changes, like I've met more than you know, I know lots of people that, you know, cold turkey their way quitting smoking, but I know a lot of other people that was like, Well, I used to smoke two packs a day. And then it came down to a half a pack a day. And then I switched to a vape. And I've been on a vape for three years now, but I only have eight, you know, twice a day. And yes, they're still, you know, dealing with the nicotine, but like, they're also their lung cancer risk went way down all of those types of so like it's, it's all sorts of different pictures that I see. And so it's not one size fits all. And one of the things if someone's listening to this and is really struggling with addiction, they don't feel like they can get through. My only advice is keep trying. If something's not working, don't just keep trying. Like if you've been trying to go to AAA meetings for 10 years, and it's never worked. Try something different. Like AAA doesn't work for everybody works for a lot of people doesn't work for everybody. So try something different.

29:31

Which does society demonize more gambling or sex addiction?

29:35

Sex? Yeah, sex. Undoubtedly, it's because of our society's got such a such a strong kind of Protestant background. And if you look, even politically, you know, one of the major political parties in the country's very strongly aligned with conservative Christian sexual values. So right now it's sex. Was it that way? 50 years ago, I don't know. Will it be that way? Two years from now, I don't know. Right now, though, I'd say it's X.

30:03

Are we more addicted now than you think that we were in the past?

30:08

No, no, this is actually pretty common idea like, oh, no, thanks to technology, and hyper palatable foods this we're all developing more addictions for I don't think there's any good evidence of that. I think, you know, I think addictions have have been here with us. The reason we think that there's more now is that we're more aware of what's happening. We just get better at measuring what's around us, the longer we go on. I think a good analogy is if you look at sports and sports statistics, and so you might sometimes listen to an old sports fan, like back in my day, we didn't have all these statistics. It's like, I mean, but they were there, like these metrics were still happening, right? Owen was measuring, right. So like, they, you know, you'll see, anytime you watch an NBA game, this is the first time someone's gone for this many minutes. This many scores this many thing while wearing shorts that were this long or whatever, right? Like, it seems absurd. But like it's its measurement, we're better at measuring things now than we used to be.

31:03

The thing this is completely aside, but the thing that I always wonder about is like, what did people in like the 1800s, they just look at clouds that look like a woman their history, or they do it?

31:16

History of porn is one of one of the really, I mean, I'm not a historian, but I've read some of this work. You know, there, there's certainly evidence that people were marketing erotic drawings, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, 1000s of years ago, it took less, it took only just a few short years for the from the invention of the camera to be selling of, you know, nudes. The reason that blu ray won out over what was it HD discs, or whatever it was,

31:46

was because though Yeah, heard that about? Yeah.

31:49

Yeah, Betamax. And this is consistent. Like, we have always used the technology at our disposal to produce images of sexuality, whether that was drawing on paper, to now with full blown virtual reality.

32:05

Are we all addicted to something?

32:08

So I think if you think of addiction in terms of functional impairment, like is this behavior creating problems in your ability to exist in life? The answer is no. If the if we're thinking about addiction in terms of is this something I can't stop? Even if I want it to, then yes, right. So like, Yes, I'm absolutely addicted to caffeine. Like, I traveled abroad a couple years ago, for COVID. To a country that did not have easy access to coffee, and I had withdrawal headaches for two days until I finally found a Starbucks. It was 16 blocks from my hotel, and I walked to it every single day, from there on out to get coffee. That absolutely sounds like an addiction when you describe it. Generally right now at home, three kids and wife at home, I get up in the morning, I make coffee. And I don't have problems. And so like, is that an addiction? A true addiction? Probably not. But in a different set of circumstances? Could it be conceived as one? Probably?

33:13

This one's a little lighthearted. Where on the scale of addiction studies, are you like, is the gambling and sex addiction person cooler than the person who studies like addiction to eating salt or addiction to something else? Right. So

33:30

I mean, depends on who you ask. Depends on how you define cool right now, if you want to talk about being able to get grant money, and who's able to get the money to do the work they want, and where the bottom of the totem pole but if you want to talk about the ones that people are the most excited to talk to and interested in. I think that we get a lot of public interest because the public is interested in these things, even if the funding agencies are

34:02

Yeah, they can't really fund it as much I guess.

34:06

Historically, not gambling, gambling is getting there. Eventually sex mind but sex they just get so wrapped up in the politics of it. All right. So

34:15

so that kind of a question that just jumps into my head is right, like so what do you think about gambling was hush hush, no gambling only in Vegas? Now you see fantasy advertisements for it left and right. Like I guess, what do you think about that? What's going on? Is this or new wave is coming or like what are you

34:37

so I don't so I see. You sometimes you see people that are very programming, saying there's not going to be any problems. It's just a new economic activity. And then sometimes you'll see people that are in the anti gambling, community sex. This is going to completely restructure society as we know it. And I think both are completely wrong. I think of it in terms of if you think about people being predisposed was to developing a problem with addiction. And then I mentioned really early on in this kind of podcast that well, sometimes you might be predisposed, but are never exposed to it, right? So you might be predisposed develop an alcohol problem, but for whatever reason, you just chose to never drink in your life even you never drank. So you never knew that you're predisposed, because you were never exposed to it. I think gambling is going to be like that I think more people that would have never developed a problem will but I don't think we're talking about some massive epidemic, I think we're talking. If the prevalence rate is 1%. Now maybe the prevalence rate goes to 2%. Now, that's an absolute doubling in the number of people that have gambling addictions, which is a very big deal. But it's also not like some rampant disease recognized all of society. So it's this kind of nuanced view. But I do think more people will develop problems that don't have it. And I think it won't be as bad as some people are afraid. You know, I am concerned, especially with the fact that a lot of states are legalizing the ability to gamble from your phone. The privacy aspect of it scares me a little bit. It's easier to be responsible with your bets, when you know people are watching you. But if nobody's watching you, and it's not real money, and there's not chips on the table, it's just numbers on the screen. I'm concerned, but it's a cautious concern, not a, I don't necessarily believe that it's definitely going to be a huge problem. I just I want to see what happened. And that's what a lot of our research now is is just documenting trends over time.

36:23

Most interesting gambling case most interesting sex addiction case you've had.

36:28

So I can't talk about specific line details publicly, right, because of HIPAA and various other protections. I think those some of my most gambling cases are the ones that have won big and I don't mean like, oh, they won 5000 or 10,000. Like I have cases that in one, one or 2 million, either via lottery or via some just insane cussing up AR, and then lost it all. Just, I mean, it says something to say I was up $2 million at one point. And now I'm in the hole 500,000. I mean, that speaks to what's going on. So that's that. And then sex addiction. What's not, it's not actually the sex addiction cases that are the most interesting to me. It's the ones that think they have a sex addiction with don't so like talking to someone that might say, I'm addicted to porn, and like, okay, so when was last time you for? Well, you know, three weeks ago, when I was in the supermarket, I was at the impulse counter. And I saw this very scantily clad woman on the magazine, and I thought of what she might look like naked. Like, yeah, but when was last time you looked at porn. And that's what they meant. And it's like this completely warped view of the world. Based on you just complete concerns about you know, not looking at a woman with lust in your eyes, which is, you know, a thing that comes up in Christian faith a lot. Like, so that's fascinates me again, not a true addiction. But fascinating worldview to kind of work with in the therapeutic room very hard, doesn't actually work out very well, sometimes, but very, very interesting.

37:55

Yeah. Like, what do you do in that kind of circumstances when you make maybe somebody thinks they have an addiction, but this isn't really an addiction,

38:03

right? Well, if someone is coming to me and asking for help, then I believe that they're a person that's in front of me that needs help. And so sometimes the help is addiction treatment, because you have addiction related kind of behaviors. But sometimes that's something like we the term we use is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, it's kind of a school of thought is a type of therapy that's focused more on learning to not get so caught up in the struggles, basically, being able to say I fell short of my goals. That is in the past, I'm moving forward. And so I'm not saying I don't try to tell, you know, if my clients a conservative Christian, I'm not going to say, well, first, you should be an atheist, and then you should be okay to you in corn, like, I'm not going to say that, I'm going to say, okay, what are your values? How do we live up to those values without causing suffering in your life? And what does that mean for you? And so it looks a little different for everyone. But oftentimes, it's about learning not to hate yourself when you fall short of your values, and learning not to obsess about those values when you're living up. And so it's this balance of trying to just kind of even things out,

39:08

do people like when they maybe they cure the addiction, but can they ever get over a sense of shame? Like that? Oh, I was, I was a gambler, and I lost $10 million, or whatever, and I don't gamble anymore. But then do they ever get over that?

39:25

The aspect of times the negative emotion around it goes that the shame though, so they'll still be some regret, right? Feeling like I wish it hadn't been. But it doesn't carry the same pain. And a part of that is if you think about a lot of recovery groups, so whether it's a TA or GA or 12 Step groups, or there's lots of other groups that aren't 12 steps that that are different patterns. They're built on you telling your story pretty often and the more often you tell a story. It's the same thing for PTSD actually, the more often you tell that story that causes you pain, the less pain it costs. because you just get used to telling the story, it doesn't mean that you couldn't find the pain if you want it to it doesn't mean that there's not still some emotion there because of course there is. But it becomes less painful because it's it's just your story at that point. And the bigger thing we deal with is when somebody has a an incident where they slip back into something, there's often crushing shame. And then that crushing shame is like, well, what's the point in anything, might as well keep going. And it's like, no, a incident, you know, you've been sober for 10 years, and you've had one drink. That doesn't mean you need to give up and have 10 drinks a day for the rest of your life. It just means you had one drank and slept up to get back on.

40:37

I always wondered if John Daly was like a good example, or a bad example, somebody that was addicted and really had some trouble with it stopped for a long time, and then just seems to have become okay with it. Like in control, but still doing the thing that he was addicted to?

40:54

Yeah, I mean, it's tricky. I, I hesitate to point out like exemplars like if somebody is Yeah, right. But like, I do think, like I said earlier, whatever you're doing that makes it more likely that you wake up tomorrow morning, and that the people around you aren't getting harmed by what you're doing is a step in the right direction. And so if the thing is if you know, like, I'm going to end up using you, and I cannot stop it, but you learn a way to do that, that doesn't put your life in extreme risk and isn't actively hurting the people around you. I tend to think of that, as I mean, good versus bad is one way of thinking about I think of that as a better direction to go than just going full bore. You know,

41:39

is it always bad? Addiction, addiction, always bad?

41:43

Depends on how you define that, I think, I think of addiction, oftentimes as a reaction to what's life's got going on. So sometimes people will turn to addictions. Because what's going on in their life is so bad that they don't feel like they can face it without it. And I've worked with people with addictions that will say, Well, if I hadn't had that substance, I would have just committed suicide. And in that situation, it's a hard thing to say that that was bad, it may not have been the best thing for them. But it's hard to say it was bad at that they think that that kept them alive. I've heard that phrase before. And I think that that's one aspect. I mean, the other aspect of it is, as humans, we're always balancing, enjoying life and accomplishing the things that need to be accomplished. And it's not inherently bad that sometimes that balance gets out of whack, where we get a little too far on the enjoyment side of things, and we need to pull it back. We need to rake back. Yeah. Like I mean. So I again, I don't think I would say it's always bad. Yes, we want people to be safe. But sometimes people are going to engage in substances, they're going to engage in behaviors, sometimes they're going to get a little bit out of control. And it doesn't have to be

42:56

I would imagine that that's true in the sense that like, people don't get addicted to something for no reason. Like, are they usually kind of using it to compensate for something that might have been the worst option?

43:07

Oftentimes, that is the case. Yes. I mean, there are sure. Physiological addictions and there are these moments where people purely just develop a dependence on something and they can't stop because more often than not, yes, it is the addiction. The addiction develops, because the other options seemed worse. Now, we can debate on the outside whether it was or was not, but for the person living it, that's what that's what it felt like for them. And that's I mean, for me, that's part of being a non judgmental therapist is realizing that what led them to this point is not just some deranged, you know, desire to have an addiction or just a lack of self control or being weak know what led them to this point, it was a set of options that said, No, this is the option that makes no sense. And if we can understand that, some a lot of times addiction therapy is about making sure that there's better options there so that addiction is no longer the best option.

44:06

Yeah, kind of like I can confront my childhood field with abuse or I can drink alcohol. Yeah, and I drink alcohol is what I would do.

44:15

Right? And that that happens, and there may come a point with the right supports in place where confronting that abuse makes more sense. But where you are, for whatever reason right now, it just doesn't and so you choose to avoid it via substance.

44:31

Um, that's pretty much all the questions we got man. Is there anything that you think we missed? Or no, no, I think people kind of learn more about you. And

44:39

yeah, if you are interested, if you're ever interested in learning more about me, you can always find me I'm on Twitter at Josh Grubbs PhD. You My website is Joshua Grubbs phd.com. Both of those are probably the best place to catch up with me. But I'm always happy to hear from folks if people have questions. You know, I do get a lot of emails. I can't promise I'll respond to everything but I do try again. I'm pretty active on social.

45:04

What's the most addictive thing that you think like, oh, man, people get into that and it is just

45:13

I was gonna say caffeine. No, it's not caffeine. Right now I'm trying to decide if I think this is objectively true or if it's just because of where we kind of are societally. I mean, I tend to think of opioids is pretty pretty darn so like that. Heroin, fentanyl, car, fentanyl, that kind of isolated, which all have their purposes medically. But any human being if you gave them a daily dose of an opioid, for two weeks, they will be dependent on it at the end of the two weeks. Now, some people will fight through the withdrawal. But it's it's a very easy addiction to create. I think it's the easiest addiction to create that we've seen.

Celebrity Photographer Mickey Blank

Mickey Blank, better knows as New York Mickey, is a different kind of celebrity photographer. She’s gained a massive following online by showing a side of celebrities you don’t usually see. We talk celebrity photography, professional fans, the nicest and meanest celebrities and paparazzi. Then, we countdown a special “celebrity” themed Top 5.

Mickey Blank (New York Mickey): 01:45ish

Pointless: 29:53ish

Top 5: 46: 50ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://linktr.ee/mickmicknyc (New York Mickey Links - Linktr.ee)

Interview with New York Mickey (Mickey Blank)

0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, celebrities, the real story, and ah, celebrities.

0:23

But I was very naive, and I started it. And I learned that a lot of photographers can be very aggressive, very aggressive, and covering the scene, like, I don't really care if they're going to look at me or not, I just covered it. This scene is what's interesting to me. Most of the celebrities, I do not recognize the only way I know like, I look at the other photographers where they point in their camera. And that's where I point,

0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate it, it helps out the show and more than anything, we just like hearing from you. So our first guest is a celebrity photographer. But she's different than most other celebrity photographers. And that's why she's gained a massive online following, because she specializes in showing the side of celebrities that we don't usually see. And even if you're not interested in celebrities, I think it's fascinating to find out what they're really like. And even more than that, what the world around them. And the people around them are like this is celebrity photographer, Mickey Blanc, better known as New York. Mickey, are you surprised my people's reaction to your videos?

1:50

I'm just surprised with how mean people can be either towards me or just the people featured in the video.

1:59

When you look through the comments, like are most of them nice? Or did the mean ones just really stand out? So that's what you see.

2:07

Mean ones always stand out. Yeah, you can have like tons of great comments, and then you'll have a few really nasty ones and they will always stand out.

2:17

Did you kind of set out to do this? Was this the plan? Like I want to be a celebrity photographer videographer. Was this something that just kind of happened?

2:28

No, I had nothing to do with a celebrity. I'm not I'm not into this world. I wasn't. And people used to ask me Oh, you live in New York City, what celebrities etc? I don't know. Maybe I saw Jerry Seinfeld once. And now like you asked me, I've seen everybody in a year. I've seen like, once you get your Bubble to notice they're celebrities around you. You can find them anywhere I've seen so many like I cannot even count. And that's the difference between like my before and my after before. It was like eight years one Jerry Seinfeld. And now it's like a year and it's every anybody just named the person I I've seen it. It's on my videos. It's crazy.

3:12

Does that mean that they're kind of like walking around us all the time? don't notice.

3:17

Like in Manhattan all the time. There's like events happening in premieres. New York Fashion Week is like basically a parade of celebrities. If you know where to stand. They're just gonna parade in front of you one by one. It's, yeah, you just need to have the Intel that's it.

3:36

How do you get that Intel then?

3:40

Well, that's. So basically, I have a big community of people and they know what I'm doing. And they know I cover celebrities and I cover premieres. So they will send me the information. Sometimes I get the information directly from the brands that like, oh, we are going do you want to cover us here? Do you want to cover us there?

4:02

That's what I was always kind of wondering, right? Like, how do people like yourself, find these celebrities, but it kind of sounds like one way or another either the celebrities people or the brand they are working for is directly telling you where they're going to be

4:20

like, Listen, I don't do I don't do private life. I'm not like there's some like paparazzi standing outside there where they live and just waiting for them to come out. I do not do this kind of stuff. That's like, that's creepy. But if they're on a filming set or filming on the street, if they have a premiere, if like the brand is reaching out, hey, this celebrity is going to be this restaurant at this time, then it's legit and it's like it's like public relations. Right? It's completely different story between the two. It's not the same. Is that

4:51

usually how it works, how celebrity photographers find out about it is like somebody from the brand or the celebrity is telling you where they're going to be

5:01

a lot of times yes. Like most of for filming set, no, I have this information filming set will not announce Oh, they do announce but they don't want a lot of people they have to announce because they they film in a public street. But most of the public don't know how to get to this information for premieres, they will announce that's why all the photographers are there, the Getty photographers the bag, read all the photographers out there, because they send them the information, they gave them credentials to stand there and take photos and videos. But if that's somebody walking outside of his house, that's paparazzi that's like a photographer that knows where the celebrity leaves and just park there the whole day waiting for them to come out. And people like me, I think I'm completely new to the industry because I'm a content creator. I don't see around me other content creators. All the other people around me are photographers that have been doing it for years. And some of them started putting their videos on social media. But there are photographers that their main priority, like selling their photos to magazines. They're not really, you know, creators. So I'm like the first person, I think, step in this borderline,

6:13

kind of moving away from the idea of selling the photographer's to somebody else, but you're just putting the content directly on social media, and doing if not

6:21

sell any photos or videos. Even if I have an exclusive videos. You do not believe the amount of email I get, oh, we want to this video unlike nope, not that like I didn't sell any of them. Zero.

6:35

How much? How much will they offer you for that?

6:39

They usually like Don't say that. We want the video, let's go through the contract and the contract and always, Oh, you like I gave them full rights, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I don't want it. I just want this is my video. I want to be able to do whatever I want with it. So I don't even have the I don't even have the time to start negotiating with them. I just like usually ignore these emails.

6:59

That surprised you like I would feel like I couldn't resist the curiosity being like, well, what would you pay me though?

7:05

It's a hassle. And they're very manipulated, because they like a big company with a lot of people and I'm just one person and the contract, like usually, like you have to have the time to read it and to understand what they're asking for. And I don't I don't have this time. And so I don't I don't deal with it. Maybe I should but I don't. What's

7:27

kind of your typical like approach, say you're going out on a shoot or what's your day, like?

7:32

My weeks my days are very, very different. It's not like something fixed the day. So I just find a spot I do not like most photographers will shout like, looking at or looking at each other names. I don't feel the need to do it. Because there's so many photographers and I just feel like I'm I'm covering the scene, like I don't really care if they're going to look at me or not. I just covered this scene is what's interesting to me how this person Calvin surrounded with all the photographers and how they react.

8:03

What is that kind of scene usually like when celebrities arrive?

8:07

I? Well, it depends on the celebrity. It depends on the photographers around me, which by now I know most of the photographers. It depends how many people are there. There was like a scene going viral on Tiktok of Gigi Hadid arriving at Rockefeller. And we were like about 10 photographers there covering the event. And most of the photographers standing on one side, one photographer was standing with the fans. And before she arrived there, like fight in where she's gonna look if she's gonna look at him or she's gonna look at us. And when she's arrived like everybody like JJ Look at me. No, don't look at him. It was like, that was amazing. And and yeah, there were like showering it was like very emotional. And other scenes even if you have like more photographers are not that emotional. Especially if the celebrities tap in for a long time. Like if you're stopping for a long time each photographer have a chance. But if you're just walking inside and it can be boring, it can be yelling, it gets very emotional.

9:18

What's like how much time usually passes like you've got minutes to get a shot or you've got seconds.

9:27

The same event Dodger cat came and we knew that her car and she was sitting in side her car for like a full minute not coming out. And then she came out and she immediately walk inside. And everybody that booboo like they were booing because they were waiting for so long and she was just walking in. And so one minute inside the car we can see here and then just walk in for like 10 seconds. But I have a good video because there was nobody blocking my view. And another instant I had the premiere For Amsterdam with Robert De Niro and my buyers, that was insane, there was so many fans there. And there were so many people working at the entrance. When a celebrity came in, it kind of disappeared between the sea of people. So we couldn't see him. Like I have Drake coming out of the car, and I see him coming out of the car. And then in a second, he disappeared between a sea of people and walking inside. That's it. So I have a second the same for a second, when it's coming out of the car. That's it?

10:32

Is it pretty competitive with other photographers? Or is it more just like chaos is happening around these people? So you've got to get? are you competing with the other photographers? are you competing with the other people who are there?

10:45

Well, obviously, the more people that are there, the less chance you have to get a good shot, because people just can block you. Usually, I don't really care because I'm, again, I'm not selling I'm just taking photo of the scene. But I was very naive. And I started it. And I learned that a lot of photographers can be very aggressive, very aggressive. They can they're like, I think maybe you have to enter the industry, I don't know. But they can be really not pleasant to be around, aggressive, they can harass you, they can threaten you. Just not people you want to be around a lot of the times, which is kind of sad, but they were trying to drive me away from doing that. But I was holding my ground and I'm still I'm still here.

11:34

What are some what like what are some of the things that have happened to you?

11:37

I got threats, I got photographers, paparazzi is more taking photos of me sharing them on social media calling me names. Going to the police officers telling lies about me. Telling me go back to Brazil, or you're not gonna be allowed to step another time in New York City, you know, threats, basically harassing bullying?

12:06

Does it ever get like physical kind of

12:09

as So apparently, they know not to touch you. Because if they touch you, then that's like, that can ban them from this profession forever. And some of them already have filed against them so that they can I cannot have another one. But they have ways on emotionally manipulate you, and make you and stress you out without touching you. Is it male dominated? Yeah. For Yeah. Yeah. That's how males with floods of ego and self esteem and territorial, a sense of territories is my territory you're not supposed to be in my territory,

12:50

is that kind of, I'm not like absolving people necessarily. But is that how the industry works in the sense that like, in football, people are gonna get tackled, right? Like, this is how the industry is it is super competitive. And people will do anything to try to get any kind of advantage over the other person.

13:11

They will look, some of them are really nice. People, I actually got two of them as my mentors, they're helping me to find my way and helping me with finding the information. And one of them actually started with being my worst enemy. But like, we were able to turn over a new leaf and now you know, we kind of collaborating and we have like communication between us. But some are just like, very childish behavior. And I just currently just ignore and I just do not address a talk or and whenever I see them, I try to hide myself so they don't see me and you know, nothing happens.

14:00

When you go to like film something. Obviously events are scheduled ahead of time. But how much notice Do you usually get if somebody's like, hey, this person is going to be at this restaurant in five minutes. Can you get there? Or is it like, hey, they're going to be there? It's four o'clock they're going to be there at nine.

14:15

Oh, that's different. That's different. If somebody is going like if a celebrity going to the restaurant and that's kind of a PR stunt. They send you like, a few days or enough hours before that celebrity comes. That's like a PR event that's not a filming set of filming said they are not they do filming set usually don't want photographers paparazzi nobody covering their work, because like spoilers, I don't know why I don't know. So they will not announced but since they're filming in the streets, there are ways to find out where there's they're filming. And the time is tricky. But since I have a big community, lots of people, lots of items. The city. Usually when somebody see a film instead, they will say, Hey, Mickey, they're filming here and here. So you know. So I have the exact timing.

15:08

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, sure. biggest celebrity that you've ever gotten video of?

15:18

Probably Julia Roberts. She's not my most viewed video, but I think she's the biggest, I think, Julia Roberts,

15:27

she's up there. She's kind of a little old school movie star celebrity as opposed

15:33

to like, but that's why because everybody knows her. Like I have the younger ones from tick tock, which are booming, but like the audience generation does not know them. But I feel like Julia Roberts 90% of the people know who she is, right. So

15:47

well, she's like a celebrity in the sense that she was famous for doing something as opposed to famous for being famous. Yes. Where I think some people are now kind of going into that territory. Yeah. Is there a type of celebrity that like, this experience is going to be easier or more difficult in the sense that like, okay, a movie star, that's going to be pretty simple. But the internet, tick tock influencers going to be chaotic, right, like, can you expect anything based on the industry that they are famous for?

16:23

Listen, nowadays, even if you have somebody like really famous, it's not a guarantee for your video to go viral? Especially if there were like lots of people taking this content. And it's like a competition is like, randomly the algorithm would choose one. As for the comments, it's like, it's somebody tick tock famous, like Dixie, which I film for New York Fashion Week, then the comments will be like, Oh, she's a celebrity. Oh, she's not a celebrity. You know, she's famous. She's not saying she's just a person doing tic TOCs. I don't get this debate. She clearly is a celebrity. And she's clearly is famous. But she's different from Julia Roberts, right. In the in your mind and people's mind. Yeah.

17:08

I have this theory that somehow the reason that people like, what did the inner the Tiktok influencers celebrities get so famous, is because there's such argument over of why they're famous. And that just fuels the whole algorithm, right?

17:24

Yeah, that definitely makes her like, if I'll use the word celebrity in her video that will make the video blows up, because she's not a celebrity.

17:34

Oh, do you do that on purpose? Or did you just kind of like that out? No,

17:38

I don't do it on purpose. But sometimes I make I choose a headline. And then I'm like, Okay, this video went viral because of the headline, not because of the actual video. But I know it in retrospect, I usually don't know it when I you know, write the headline.

17:57

Last time that you were kind of like, Oh, it's this person when you were personally like,

18:03

if I look back at my two most in all moments was when I met Ed Harris on the Westworld filming set at Harris. That was amazing. And then when I met Chris north, on the end, just like that filming said that we're like, Mike, ah, this is so cool. Yeah.

18:27

Are they are celebrities themselves? Are they usually nice to you? Are they mean to you?

18:32

They don't know me, they just, you see just how they are that particular moment. Sometimes they have time. They're really nice. Sometimes they like really running late. So we they will not stop. But it's not like they address their behavior towards me or anybody else. It's just the circumstances. It makes you see what you see in that moment.

18:54

They're, they're reacting to the situation, not necessarily any person involved in the situation.

19:00

But I noticed that some fans are really good in getting them smiling and getting their attention. And some fans are more likely to get photos with them than others. Funny if you look at this industry, it's not just the photographers with their photographers come the fan, which are a lot of them are like, professionalized in this field of finding celebrities and taking either selfies or autographs. So you see the same photographers, the same fans and the same people asking for autographs. It's usually the same people.

19:34

The people who go there like they're professional fans of celebrities, like they just go to

19:41

Yes. Like the front row is usually the same faces over and over again. And sometime I feel like really sad saying that because they some of them are kind of aggressive, like the photographers. And I see the celebrities giving them attention and it's like Ah, did not give this person attention. But you know, they don't know who this person is.

20:06

Oh, but are they like professional fans in the sense that like, this is what they, yeah, they like to do this or someone is hiring these people to like, go and act like this.

20:18

Oh, no. Well, maybe somebody hires them to go and get autographs because autographs can get you money, I guess. So maybe somebody can have somebody to just go and get autographs. I don't think the people for the selfies getting any money for the day just like it's like a hobby that went wild. That's why I say that, like very focused on getting as many photos with celebrities as possible,

20:47

like a good hobby, or like, Ooh, this is a little bit of an unhealthy session. Hi,

20:53

I feel it's unhealthy. I feel Yeah. In some cases, I'm like, this is across the border of they should have, they have no balance there. No balances, they just go whenever. And that's a big priority in life. So that's not healthy in my mind.

21:15

Oh, celebrity that's hardest to recognize. I mean, that in the sense that like, Oh, I didn't even know that was them.

21:22

Most of the celebrities. I do not recognize the only way I know. Like I look at the other photographers where they point in the camera. And that's where I point. Usually I do not recognize the people. I'm like, Okay, this is a person, okay. And then later, I like Google and find out who it is how big they are. And if it's worth, you know, posting the video or not. But I had this incident with Katie Holmes, like she was coming. I see. I thought she was coming from New York Fashion Week. Week. I saw a few photographers around there. I'm like, oh, maybe she's interested in I'll take a video. I took a video I forgot about it. And then I see the summary from the Tom Ford, neuro fashion week and I see Katie Holmes, and I see what she was wearing. I'm like, Oh, I took a video of her. She was standing next to me. I didn't recognize her. I made a video out of it of like me not recognizing Katie Holmes, because she was right in front of me. She was walking towards me basically,

22:16

do they generally look like what you think they're going to look like?

22:19

Um some of them I guess, like Gigi Hadid was, you know, everybody's screaming GG. And she's the only person walking so you know, it's really headed. But I had, I was filming the Michael Kors and Fashion Week and other models came. And I'm like, Oh, he must have some big models walking the runway. So I'm looking to see if I recognize any of them. I didn't. And then I say Bella Hadid was in his show. And like, How did I miss Bella Hadid? And like, she was there, but I filmed all the models there. How could I miss her? So I'm looking and I'm saying, yeah, she was walking right towards me. And as soon as she smiled into my camera, I shifted to the person behind her because I did not recognize her. Oh, my God. But yeah, that's the way it is. Well, but

23:10

it's tough to realize what people actually look like. Like, I used to be a news reporter. And we wouldn't do with celebrities. But usually like an infamous person this sense, like this person just got arrested. This is what they look like. And it's surprising like, oh, wait, is that? Is that them? I have no like, you wouldn't really be able to tell a lot of times because people don't look in person. Like what they you think that they are going to look like? Best place like if you're going and you're like, I gotta get something today. I gotta get some content today. Like, where are you going to go and be like, I know I'm gonna see somebody Are you a paparazzi

23:49

so as I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, paparazzi, somebody that makes money of the photos and videos and we already established the fact that I had never sold a signal, single celebrity photos or videos to news media. That's one second one is somebody that's achieved celebrity celebrities on their private life. And you do not see videos of like, I do not do that. I do not go outside their houses. I do not. Occasionally a fan or one of my community members will send me a video of oh, I met this celebrity in the street and they have like a really cute video I will share it. But I'm not. That that's not what I do know. So the answer is no.

24:33

What's your reaction when celebrities get mad at photographers taking their pictures?

24:40

I don't I didn't even i i don't remember seeing a celebrity being mad. Because again, I'm not taking photos of them doing their private life, either on a filming set where they're already on camera or premieres where they expect camera and red carpet. They expect cameras or a PR event when it And they expect cameras. So I don't I don't think I've ever seen a celebrity get upset because they were. I can feel I can think of an incident. Oh, you know what I think Sarah Jessica Parker was really frustrated, because her show when she started filming and just like that, it was so buzzing and everybody wanted to see her in her outfit. It was insane. That was like lots of photographers every time she was filming. Lots of fans. The streets were full of people. I think she was frustrated about it. But she never she never really said anything. You just I kind of read between the lines, or you heard it from people on the crew, but she never said anything directly to the fans or photographers.

25:56

nicest celebrity

25:59

nicest. I think they're like, I think if you are in the industry, you have to be nice. I think all of them are nice, because if they weren't, they weren't be in the industry. And sometimes again, they're in a hurry, so they cannot be nice. But sometimes I go to a premiere. And I did it actually one time, because I went to the power of the Rings premiere, and the actors there, people don't know them because they're all new. So I went and I covered that. And I had to make it interesting because people do not know the actors. So I rank them according to what I saw, as they were coming in, and how they react to their fans. And they were reacting to you know, the people around them. So I was ranking them between, like one they just walked in ignoring everybody to the one that was really nice. talking to the camera just been really sweet. So I did that one time. Yes.

26:54

Is there a meanest one? Do you have a meanest one mean?

26:58

I'm not mean, I had not mean the only thing I can think of that sometimes they're really oblivious to the world of photographers and fans around them. So it's kind of really kind of really painful to see the photographers that are choosing to be around them, which makes me feel not hire any of them. Because if they're choosing this photographer, they clearly I don't know. But not mean, no.

27:31

That's pretty much all the questions I've got. Is there anything else you think that we missed or anything like that? Oh,

27:38

well, this is a very broad territory. There's a lot to cover, but I think you've covered most of the good stuff.

27:46

So for people if they want to find you want to find out more about you like what should where should they look? Where are you at all that kind of stuff?

27:53

Sure. So I'm, I have my social media channels. And basically I share different content for each one of my social media channel. So for my Facebook followers, I share live videos from New York and then I talk about whatever was happening in my life and what celebrity I met what filming said I covered but whatever was going on or in the city I will share in my life. Walk on Facebook. Instagram is like the current things happen in city this is happening now. This is happening tomorrow. This is and Tik Tok is basically interesting moment I captured throughout the day that like anybody even if you're not in New York or interested in coming here, you'll find it interesting.

28:41

Now, is this the full time living? Can it be a full time living?

28:45

It's more than a full time living do it 24/7

Rare Bookseller Tom Ayling

From First Editions worth thousands, to long-lost manuscripts worth millions. Rare Bookseller Tom Ayling takes us inside the world of rare books. We talk the most expensive books in the world, forging counterfeit books, starting a book collection, lost books, banned books and what makes a book truly unique. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Collectibles.

Tom Ayling: 01:43ish

Pointless: 54:55ish

Top 5: 01:18:04ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

http://www.jonkers.co.uk (Tom Ayling Bookstore)

https://www.tiktok.com/@tomwayling (Tom Ayling TikTok)

https://www.instagram.com/tomwayling (Tom Ayling Instagram)

Interview with Rare Bookseller Tom Ayling

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the rarest books and the best collectibles,

Tom Ayling 0:21

not many things that are 500 years old, have survived to the present day. But there are plenty of books that have, say we were very quick to say, we'd love to see it, can you bring it or send it to us and the book arrives, and I opened it and immediately said, that's not right. A copy a complete copy has not come up for sale for some time. But when it does, we're talking 10s of millions of dollars, I have no doubt, book collecting is really a pursuit of love. If you don't enjoy what the things that you're collecting, that I doubt, it's going to do much for you.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it helps out the show and more than anything, we just like hearing from people. So our first guest is someone that I've wanted to talk to for a long time. Because I think this topic slash industry is just fascinating. Because not only is it interested in terms of how he finds these things, how much they cost, the lengths that people will go to, to counterfeit them. But it's really a journey back into our history. This is rare bookseller Tom ailing. So what what makes a book rare.

Tom Ayling 1:46

So in the in the book trade Rare Book is a relatively modern moniker that we use to describe a book. And it's conferring not just a sense of, of scarcity, that something is hard to find, or doesn't exist in many copies, but also an element of it being sought after. There are many, many books in the world that people aren't interested in. And, you know, you might have the only copy of a book in the world. But if there's no one that wants to buy it, then it's it might be in, in absolute terms, a rare book, but it's not going to sort of fall into the category of a rare book when we talk about what books are sought after, and what books are, you know, highly collectible. So, in our sense, a rare book is, is anything where you've got a base level of scarcity, that is going to in some way drive, you know, value and interest, and then, you know, a level of a level of demand for it alongside that. And that could be because the author's famous, that could be because the content is is hugely important in, you know, to our history, or our literature, or to a contribution of a field like science and medicine. It could be that it's a book of extraordinary beauty, beautifully illustrated, beautifully bound, beautifully designed. So it's the sort of overall moniker of rare books is is quite a broad church. And certainly, the trade itself comprises not just printed books, but anything from fully blown illuminated manuscripts to, you know, little scraps of paper that a professor left in a cupboard 200 years ago.

Nick VinZant 3:36

Is this a big industry? Like, I can't imagine there being a lot of people who do this, I would

Tom Ayling 3:43

say it's not a big industry, but there are probably more booksellers out there than you think. You know, there was a time 100 years ago, where you could drive through Britain and every single market town would have a antiquarian bookshop of some description. What's happened to the trade in the last, you know, in the last sort of 30 years, is, is a decline in those bricks and mortar shops. And these businesses selling sort of a more broad, general antiquarian stock. So there's lots of people still dealing in books, but they might be sort of one one man or one woman bands dealing from home selling books online, working with a small very niche group of customers with say, a special interest

Nick VinZant 4:26

where our books kind of in the collectibles hierarchy, right, like if one is baseball cards and 10 is gold diamond rings worn by the queen, Queen herself, right? Like, where is kind of books on that collectible hierarchy?

Tom Ayling 4:45

Well, I would say that extraordinarily good value compared to other objects, but I might say that, you know, they are, I would say, they're quite awkward objects to deal in. Because often they're they take quite It's a lot of hard work to work out exactly what they are, and need quite a lot of expertise to be able to deal in them. If you come to our shop, you know, there are books on the shelf for 1015 20 pounds, and there are books for hundreds of 1000s of pounds. So even within one specialist business, you have quite an wide, you know, wide range of prices. But there aren't, you know, printed books tend not to reach the sort of 10s of millions of pounds price range, you know, that, I suppose might be an argument that, you know, a fine Shakespeare first failure, or a complete Gutenberg Bible would now get into the, you know, not nine figure price range. But they're the exceptions rather than the rule, for the most part, you know, the vast majority of a specialist book dealers stock is going to, you know, maybe average out it a few 1000 pounds with a wide range from, you know, 10s of 1000s to 10s of pounds to 10s of 1000s.

Nick VinZant 6:04

So, how does the kind of the process work in the sense that, like, Are you going out and finding these books are people bringing to them?

Tom Ayling 6:11

Yeah, it's, well, it sort of works differently for, you know, whoever you're, whoever you're dealing with. But for the most part, we look to buy books that that we know about, that we're specialists in. So our specialism in the broadest sense is English literature, from Chaucer to just arrived about Harry Potter. So that's a wide scape of several 100 years. That comprises a lot of printed books, we deal in other areas as well. But that's the broad specialty. So we know what we're doing with those books. And where we see a book, you know, a first edition of a famous work of literature, we know what we're looking for, we know what it's worth, and who wants to try and buy it for stock, whether we have a customer immediately to sell it to all or not. That sounds quite simple. But what it actually involves in practice is an awful lot of looking, my time has probably spent 90% of it looking for books, and only about 10% of it actually sort of selling books, we probably look at maybe 10,000 books for every one book that we purchase for our stock or for a customer. So it's an awful lot of you know, rifling through huge libraries, massive auctions, things that come into the shop house visits that we go out and do to then select not just the right book, but the right copy of the right book.

Nick VinZant 7:45

Why is that such a disparity between what you look at and what you buys? Because the books not good enough? Not going to sell it not rare enough? Not exactly what you want? Like, what's the reason that you're usually ruling them out?

Tom Ayling 7:58

Well, there are an awful lot of books in the world. And not many of them are valuable. And certainly not many of them are rare. You know, if I was buying 10,000, in every 15,000, I looked at then one could hardly consider them Rare Books. For the most part, I mean, it could be that it just isn't what we what we do. But for the most part, it's a question of quality. So what we're looking for in a book is originality. So is it the first printing integrity? So is it complete? And as issued on publication day, whether that was 20 years ago, or 250 years ago? And very much related to integrity is condition. So that counts for completeness. But also, is it an is it an attractive copy? Is it in nice condition? Is it sound? Is it about fall apart? Or is it you know, still in the original publishers binding from 1820. And then there's a whole slew of slightly unquantifiable things that a book can possess that might make it more interesting. So it may have been owned by somebody significant, it may have their marks of provenance or their annotations, it might be a presentation copy that the author has given to somebody significant. If it's a if it's a very early book, say from the 1400s or 1500 words, it might bear the marks of an early reader. Now, even if we have no idea who this reader is, seeing their annotations, and underlining and marginalia, in a book of that age is telling us how people interacted with a book for 500 years ago, and that's hugely valuable to to historians to collectors in building an idea of the history of a book and and really that list of unquantifiable things of that nature is is as long as you like, because you don't know what you're going to find when you open up a book or look at it closely.

Nick VinZant 10:08

How difficult is it to find something in good condition? Right? Like, I would imagine it had to be preserved already, if we're talking about books that are hundreds of years old. Yeah, I mean, the history of beauty even find one that's still good. I mean, the history of

Tom Ayling 10:21

book collecting is a long one, people have collected books for centuries, if not millennia, they may or may not have collected them in the same way that we do. Now, they certainly didn't. But book collecting in its current form. Collecting say, important copies of important books, has been a factor in the book trade for for a couple of 100 years. And as a result, there are books that, you know, I can track if I if a book reaches me, often, I can have a look at the ownership records that I can find inside the book, marry them up with auction records, and I can see each of the 5678 owners who have owned the book in the last few 100 years. So there is some way you've got that solid chain of provenance, there was a wonderful example of a manuscript I was working on. Not all that recently, but relatively recently, and which was a manuscript by the poet Thomas Gray, who is most famous for writing and elegy and a country churchyard. And after he died, somebody inherited all of his things, he didn't have children. And after they died, someone inherited all of his things. And then all of his things were sold at auction. So we have the auction catalog of that sale. And we can read an annotated copy of that catalog that you can find online for free. And you can not only see what everything sold for, but you can see the names of the purchases. And then you can follow that again to another book sale a few years later, where the person who bought all of Thomas graves manuscripts, which were which were sort of separate scraps of paper, had them bound up into one single book, and had it sold as a single book. And then there's an auction a few years after that, where that book is broken up into individual pieces of paper, and sold again, each manuscript being sold individually. And that collection, the person who bought the manuscript from that sale, it went to their house on the River Thames, quite near to our bookshop, and stayed there for 100 and 150 years, until we bought their library a few years ago, and it was this thing, and going off nothing but the title of the poem written in Thomas Grace hand, we can give this one piece of paper, you know, a history spanning a few 100 years.

Nick VinZant 12:46

That is, I would imagine they write that book is interesting, but the history of the book is probably just as interesting. A lot of circumstances. Yeah. How, how can you tell if it's real, is that a huge kind of factor in that world,

Tom Ayling 13:00

we are less exposed to fakes and forgeries than other collecting areas, say, certainly, it's far less common than painting. But we do encounter it, you encounter it mostly, I would say with forged signatures, you know, if you've got a copy of a book, and then you've got a copy of a book signed by an author, that can increase the value, you know, it can add one zero to the end of it, it can add a few series to the end of it. It can in some cases, if the author was particularly prolific at signing books had no value whatsoever. So one encounters forged signatures, not infrequently, I wouldn't say most weeks, but certainly every couple of weeks, I'll be looking through, say an auction catalog. And there'll be a picture of a signed book and immediately say, No, that's wrong. But in terms of forging an entire book, that's a very difficult thing to do. And it has been done, there's been a couple of very famous and high profile cases in the not too distant past, where people have literally forged an entire book by essentially using 3d printing to recreate a form of time and then print on treated paper to make it look like old paper, bind it up and and fake an entire printed book from the 16th century. That's an awful lot of work. And you've got to I suppose I don't know much about the the economy of criminals but you've got to forge a jolly expensive book to for it to reward the time, the time it would take and the risk of being found out and in that case, it it was found out but not before it it had already changed hands for a large sum of money.

Nick VinZant 15:03

Yeah, that would be Yeah, it's not like you're going to spend all that time forging books that sell for like 100 pounds or $200, or something like that, right? Like, you kind of gotta go big. But then if you go big, everybody knows exactly what that thing is supposed

Tom Ayling 15:14

to look like, because you'd have to replicate it was explained what the sort of same printing processes that people were using hundreds of years ago. And that's tough. It's really, really tough. And, you know, print, if you think about printing itself, that have what we would call the hand press period, which is a period where to print a book, you have to arrange every single piece of type, every single letter is an individual piece, and you have to arrange that in a frame in reverse, so that it prints the words the right way round, and then print every single sheet. If the book, this whole process would take a year to print an addition of, you know, 500 copies, and then have it bound up. It's a hugely involved, involved process. And part of the the beauty of collecting books is that that remarkable process, and that remarkable innovation, produces things of great beauty. But it's it's a lot of work to do.

Nick VinZant 16:23

When when you have customers come in, are they usually? Are they looking for kind of the next big thing? Right? Are they looking for a book that is rare? And that is going to be valuable? Or are they usually looking for a very specific book,

Tom Ayling 16:38

there are people who are trying to predict the future. I tend to counsel against that, because it's very difficult to know. Speculating is, is a dangerous game, I think in in most fields, but in a field, where you're essentially saying, Will, this author or this book be popular in, you know, 50 100 years, that's tough to know. But the other thing that's tough to know is, will this book be rare, in 50, or 100 years, because a book published today by a very famous and popular author might have a print run in the hundreds of 1000s of copies. And such a, an a book produced in that number, it's going to take a very, very long time for it to be hard to find, or an awful lot of wanton destruction. So for the most part, people coming into our shop. And what we advise people to do when they're building collections, is to have a look at the market that we're in today. And with with our experience, you know, I look at famous sales of great book collections, say that was sold at auction in the in the 80s, and 90s. And you look at the prices that they made them, and what people said about these prices, and people were saying, you know, it's ridiculous that someone's paying this sum of money for that book, you'd buy every single book there today at that price in a heartbeat. So what tends to be the best way of going about it is to is to take the market as it is. But also, rather than buying a book because you think it's going to be valuable tomorrow, buy a book because it's of interest to you that should be what's guiding book collections, you know, book collecting is really a pursuit of love. If you don't enjoy what the things that you're collecting, then I doubt it's going to do much for you. So always lead with that. And you know, when you're investing large sums of money in a book, it is important that you're not throwing money down the drain. And that's why buying say the right copy is important. So a copy in the best condition you can find it or a copy with the most interesting association say, and by association. I mean, it might have been owned by somebody important and therefore be significant. So you mentioned Lord of the Rings earlier, actually. And there's a wonderful example of this. That we have at the moment we a few years ago, well, actually in about nine or 10 years ago, the editor who published the Lord of the Rings died and his library was sold. And included in that library was his set of Lord of the Rings, in beautiful condition, basically pristine, and each volume was signed by JRR Tolkien. And even better than that, not only was the he the editor that brought the Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion into the world, but his father was a publisher and head of the same publishing firm, when Tolkien submitted the manuscript of a funny little book called The Hobbit. And one evening his father took the book home and gave gave it to him and said, we've just been given this do you think it's any good. And he read it, he loved it, and basically told his father that he had to publish this book about these funny creatures called hobbits. And that kind of copy owned by someone so significant in the whole history of the world that Tolkien created is an almost it, it makes the book more than the sum of its parts. Because its existence, and its ownership history, starts telling a new story about it. And that's really the sort of copy of a book that gets that gets me excited in the sort of thing that, that I I try to share that enthusiasm with my customers.

Nick VinZant 20:55

So then, how much would a book like that sell for?

Tom Ayling 21:01

An awful lot of money. I can't tell you what he paid for it, what the customer paid for it. But I mean, that I mean, signed first edition of The Lord of the Rings is a comfortably a six figure book. In whichever currency you want to choose,

Nick VinZant 21:20

is there any indication that the people who buy them actually read them? Yeah, I mean, I would be too nervous to actually read it to be honest with you. Like I would encase it in? Carbonite? Yes, Star Wars reference, but like I wouldn't. Do people actually read these books with a somebody like, Yeah, I mean, 1500 year old book, like, I'm not reading that thing. Yeah.

Tom Ayling 21:43

I mean, it depends on the book. And I suppose it depends on the collector. I mean, there is something wonderful about reading a first edition of a book, and experiencing the same thing that that books very first readers would have experienced. You know, when you are holding a copy of the first edition of A Study in Scarlet, the first Sherlock Holmes book, and you're reading it, you're experiencing something that was felt by someone who had no idea who Sherlock Holmes was, but books his objects faster earlier than we give them credit for. Not many things that are 500 years old, have survived to the present day, but there are plenty of books that have,

Nick VinZant 22:34

are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions, of course, start out with kind of the big ones, right? rarest book you've ever had, rarest book in the world?

Tom Ayling 22:46

That's difficult to say. Because there are a whole number of books and things that ideally that are unique. You know, there's only one of them. If you're talking about something we have in the shop at the moment, say like, we have Ian Fleming's final corrected type script for diamonds are forever. The fourth James Bond book, there is only one type script with his annotations that exists. So that's totally unique. You can't get rarer than one of one. And there are plenty of things of that nature that we deal in that are that are hugely exciting objects to work with. Again, rarest book in the world. If we're talking purely on scarcity, then then there are plenty of things that surviving only one copy, there are books, in fact that we know were published and were printed, but no copies survive. My old University Professor Andrew Patrick Green, who runs a program at the University of St. Andrews, called the Universal short title catalogue has a list of these lost books that we can track in auction records, or newspaper advertisements. But there isn't a single copy recorded in any library on the planet. So I suppose a zero of one is rather than a one of one. But there are things of that nature. If we're talking about what people normally mean, when they say, what's the rarest thing in the world? Or what's the rarest thing you've ever sold? Often they really want to know what the most expensive book in the world is. Oh, which which, again, is pretty much is a result of that. You know, when we use the moniker rare books, we're talking about scarcity, but we're also talking about demand, you know, it's a supply and demand game. So if you're talking about what printed books are the most valuable there Then once talking about the sort of great rarities, like the Gutenberg Bible, which is the first book with movable type printed in the West, from from 1455. That's a hugely valuable book. A copy a complete copy has not come up for sale for some time. But when it does, we're talking 10s of millions of dollars, I have no doubt. A book like The Shakespeare first failure, which is the first collected edition of Shakespeare's plays, published in 1624. Not a rare book, in absolute terms, there are some 200 copies in different libraries around the world. But the last copy of that to come up for auction, the last complete copy of that to come up for auction sold in New York a couple of years ago now, for a shade under $10 million dollars.

Nick VinZant 25:53

Do you have a personal quest? And I think what they mean by this is like, is there a book that like, Man, I have been trying to find this,

Tom Ayling 26:02

or there are a lot, that's what keeps you going, you know, that's what, that's what makes you do your, you know, your third house call of the week when the first two haven't brought any books. And occasionally, you know, one is one is satisfied, satisfied there. There are, you know, a few black tulips as it were, that would be wonderful to get get one's hands on one day things like the true first edition of Lyrical Ballads by Wordsworth, and Coleridge, which was printed in tiny numbers in Bristol, and then republished in London the same year. So copies with the Bristol title page, fabled rarities, I think there's one at the British Library, I'm not sure there are many others anywhere in the world, those those great books like Shakespeare, folios, and Gutenberg Bibles, it would be a real thrill to, to have to have a hand in setting them. But there are there are plenty of other things as well that that are perhaps less grand, but very difficult to find. I have a personal collection of books about the town in University of St. Andrews, which is the university that I went to, and it's where I fell in love with old and rare books and with book collecting and sent me on the path to be doing what I'm doing. And the printing press came to St. Andrews in the in the 1500s. And I would love to own a copy of the very first book printed in St. Andrews,

Nick VinZant 27:40

do you get that a lot of people that are just like, maybe it's not a rare book, maybe it's not a valuable book, but somebody who is just looking for this very specific thing for a personal or whatever reason.

Tom Ayling 27:52

I had somebody in the shop a couple months ago now. And their father was very good friends with Roald Dahl. And he was a doctor who I think, treated one of Dallas children. And as a gift darlin scribed him a book, I think it was a copy of Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. Now, these people came into the shop and said, Oh, we're looking for a signed copy of Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. But I sort of started on air. Are you looking for First Edition? Are you looking for, you know, the, the British Edition or the American edition? Because there's sort of two slightly different things. And they said, No, we're looking for the copy that he gave my father. And I was like, Okay, and so we, you know, take down the details of her father's name, and what was likely to be inscribed and the circumstances of the inscription and so on. And that is a book that, you know, I am desperate to find, it's not going to, you know, its selling it would not, you know, make our year financially, but a book imbued with such personal significance, combined with the fact that it's out there somewhere, and there's only going to be one of them. Is, is the sort of, you know, going back to what you said about personal quests, you know, that's the sort of thing where if I could pull that off, I'd consider that a about as good a day's work as I'm capable of doing.

Nick VinZant 29:35

How could you even find that? Is that just pure? Like, do you have skills that would allow you to do that or is that just going to be a pure luck? You made me sound like Liam Neeson in taking it, it has a certain set of skills to find rare books.

Tom Ayling 29:52

I will find it it's, it's it's a combination of things. I mean, we we happen to have Other big specialty in children's books, and dealing a lot of Roald Dahl first editions. So there's a certain case of, if somebody's going to find it, it's likely going to be us just with the volume of things we get through. There's also the volume of books that that we look at. I mean, I told you that earlier on that we look at maybe 10,000 books for every one that we buy. That's an that's an awful lot to get through when you're buying, you know, 1000s of books a year. So, so, with with that kind of hit rate, it helps but you know, it's it's no dumb thing. There are plenty of books in circulation, or tucked away on people's bookshelves in this country, that the book trade will never, you know, never have a chance to, to feast on. But in that case, you know, it would obviously mean an awful lot if if one could

Nick VinZant 30:56

best place to find them. Like, I think of garage sales or something, right? Like, are you just scouring every garage sale that you walked past? Or like,

Tom Ayling 31:07

I don't I don't mind a low success rate. But I going sort of door to door on garage sales is is probably casting the net too wide. today. Why don't I? Why don't I rephrase this. So rather than talking about me, let me talk about if someone wants to start collecting books, where should they go? And yeah, it's the easiest answer in the world. They should go to book shops. And they should talk to booksellers, about what interests them. And then booksellers will find things for you, because that's what they do. And they'll call you up and say, Hey, I know you're interested in this. Well, let me tell you about this amazing thing that I've just got in. That is by far the best way to to collect books. And in terms of where you know, where we look for books. It's frankly, everywhere. You know, we go to we go to house schools, we go to, you know, impressive private libraries and undistinguished private libraries. We go to auctions all over the world, we go to book fairs all over the world, we go to book shops all over the world. People bring books to us, we just we just don't stop.

Nick VinZant 32:11

This isn't another question that we got. But like, what is the one that stands out to you? Or like somebody just brought one in, like, I found this in my garage? Or like, Have you ever had situations like that, where somebody's like, Oh, my God, this person had this thing and didn't even know it.

Tom Ayling 32:31

We had it with a first edition of the hobbits last year. I mean, somebody knew knew they had it. But essentially, their grandmother was given it as a Christmas present in 1937. Because it was a book that had just come out in 1937. And so that's what she got for Christmas that year. And she'd read it once and put it on the bookshelf. And the book had survived various house moves and relocations, and going in and out of boxes is, as you know, life takes its twists and turns. And now, what would that be 85 years later, someone calls us up and says, Oh, I have this book of my grandmother's. It's called The Hobbit and I think it's first edition. And say we we drove over to their house and had a look at it. And sure enough, it was. And we have arguably a longer list of customers for a first edition of The Hobbit than almost any other book printed in the 20th century. It's certainly up there with our our most sought after book. And the the waiting list for one is a is a long one. So it was something we're incredibly excited to, to see and to and to manage to acquire on behalf of the customer of ours.

Nick VinZant 33:54

There's a potentially controversial one, how do you feel about people dog hearing pages?

Tom Ayling 33:59

I don't mind at all. I don't mind it at all. I thought you would. I thought that would anger. This is this is quiet. This is quite an interesting sort of misconception about about books. I mean, if somebody has a book in there, frankly, if someone has a book in their possession, they can do what they like with it. I mean, if someone comes comes into the shop reads 10 pages of one of my books, and then you know folds the corners to come back next week and finish off, then I might get a little bit upset. But certainly if it's just a book for personal possession, do what you like with it, because there was this kind of fetishism in Victorian book collecting that survived a long way into the 20th century, that books should be the sort of untouched objects, you know, to such an extent that in the in the Victorian period, the late Victorian Period, people would wash the pages of a book. So let's say that you had a A book which you know, an owner a couple 100 years before, had, you know, written annotations or marginalia in exactly the sort of things that are hugely valuable to scholars. Now the Victorians would would wash the pages to make it look kind of pristine and perfect and polished. So now I think people should leave marks of readership in books, if that's how they want to interact with books. And then the collectors and scholars and booksellers, you know, of 200 years into the future, can get an idea of what people in the 21st century did with their books, I think it's a valuable thing.

Nick VinZant 35:39

Um, most interesting stories surrounding a book Getting to you,

Tom Ayling 35:44

here's, here's one, I quite like this. So in 1987, there was a British expedition to the Antarctic, that is known as the Nimrod exibit expedition. And it was led by Sir Ernest Shackleton, who is famous for his exploits in the Antarctic. And the problem with exploring the Antarctic is you've got a long Antarctic winter, when there's no daylight at all, so you have to keep morale up. So what he decided to do was to bring a printing press on a ship to the South Pole. And they had a printing press there. And during the long winter, they made a book an entire book, printed, written, printed and bound in the Antarctic, and it was called the Aurora Australis. And it was the first book printed on the Antarctic continent. So all the paper had to come from London down there, the printing press came from London down there, they had to keep a candle under the ink so it wouldn't freeze in and in Antarctic temperatures. And it's a book of extraordinary beauty when especially when one considers the environment that it was made in. And they printed something between 70 and 90 copies of it, and it kept them entertained for a winter. And then the books came back to to London. And some were given away to patrons of the expedition. And others were sold in in book shops. And there was a copy of this book that sold from a bookshop called bumpers that had been signed by Ernest Shackleton, and heard spin sold and resold a couple times in the intervening period, before it ended up in the collection of a man called Steve Fossett, who was a famous explorer in his own right, who built up an extraordinary library of books. Before he he was particularly well known for exploring in balloons, and he died in a ballooning accident. And his book plate that still sits in that copy of the book is, is is a hot air balloon. And so when, you know, when his library was sold, we bought that for a customer of ours who at the time was building an extraordinary collection of books that to do with paler exploration. And it felt particularly appropriate that it had been through the hands of not just the great explorers and the heroic explorers of the Antarctic at the start of the 20th century, but also one of the sort of greatest and best known explorers of the second half of the 20th century on its way to us and then on its way to its, its current home.

Nick VinZant 38:41

Do a lot of those old books though, kind of when you get down to it have a story like that are there ever was a dislike this just sat on a shelf and John's bookstore, I found it one day, like is there always kind of an interesting story to a lot of

Tom Ayling 38:58

that often is, if you if you know where to look for it, I mean, in part of the part one of the talents of being a bookseller, is, you know, making the book interesting, not by making things up, but by doing the research on it. And often, anything that has been in the world for hundreds of years, has seen some shit. And you know, has has had interesting things happen to it. And may well have, you know, passed in the hands of interesting people. There are very, very few books that were just, you know, bought by some Jukin 1600 and have sat in his library have in his, you know, Memorial Library ever since. Most books are kind of scrappy, and they get out into the world and they pass through the hands of interesting facts and, you know, wherever there's that story to tell, it's always a joy to tell it.

Nick VinZant 39:51

This one just came in. Are there rare books that aren't old? What would make a book published recently A rare,

Tom Ayling 40:01

yes. Well, the same things that make a book that was published 200 years ago rare, you need a limited supply and an extraordinary high demand. And a great example of that is a book published in 1997. called Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, which was written by a totally unknown author. Publish in extremely small numbers. The first edition was published in hardback and paperback, there were only 500, hardbacks printed. Now that's a small supply, even for a book that's only 25 years old. And the that initial scarcity, or apparent scarcity, combined with the extraordinary popularity of those books, has made first editions of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone extremely valuable books. And I mean, I'm talking about copies selling for six figure sums.

Nick VinZant 41:04

How can only 500 copies of that book be made? Because that seems like nothing.

Tom Ayling 41:10

Well, at the time, Bloomsbury, who were the publishers who took it on what a relatively certainly compared to where they are now, a relatively small publishing house. One has to be economical, in the first print run of a book, see if it finds an audience, and then go big on a on a second print run, especially when you're talking about a debut novel with with no track record. So that's not an uncommon thing to happen, an author's first book will almost always be their rarest. And it's for that reason, you know, publishers being uncertain of its of its popularity. What what also adds, I suppose, to the rarity in that case, is that a large number of copies of the hardback will have gone straight to libraries, rather than to be sold in bookshops. Because that was an easy way of selling a significant proportion of your print room in hardback initially, because often people just buy the paperback because it's cheaper in it might come out on the same day, or it might come out a few months later. So So in all likelihood, that 500 then becomes say 250, or 300. And there are certainly that many people in the world who would want to own a first edition of it and be willing to pay, you know, a large sum of money for it. But I have to say that is very quickly that is a unique phenomenon. In modern publishing, you know, there are very, very few books published in the entire 20th century, that should have an equivalent value monetarily. So if you were one of the very lucky people who happen to buy a first edition of Harry Potter, when it first came out, then all power to you. But you know, there might not be an equivalent phenomenon in the next 100 years.

Nick VinZant 43:14

Is there any could have been stories that you have, like this book would have been very rare, very valuable, but it just had, I was missing a page or anything like that.

Tom Ayling 43:30

I mean, completeness is is hugely important to, to a book. So if it's missing a page that kind of falls at the first hurdle. So one of the first things that I'm looking at when I'm while certainly when we take a book in for stock is we do something called collating it, which is in simple terms, making sure all of its there. So we go through every single book, page by page to make sure it's complete. And then we note any condition issues that might appear throughout it, maybe there's a tear to page, you know, 90 or whatever. In terms of could have been stories, there was I'll tell you about one that we came across a few years ago. We were offered by email, a first edition of Animal Farm by George Orwell that was purported to be inscribed by George Orwell for a woman with whom he had an affair. So a very interesting association in the scope of all wells, all wells life and, and biography. Say we were very quick to say, we'd love to see it, can you bring it or send it to us and the book arrives? And I opened it and immediately said, that's not right. something was off about the signature and the inscription. This, this is a book that where it cracked, would be worth, you know, 10s of 1000s of pounds, without even thinking about it too hard. And we did some due diligence on it. Because initially, you get this, this, Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Blink about your sort of initial reaction to things and how often that sort of Blink instinctive reaction is the right one. But sometimes you have to do a bit of digging to find out why you think that and that's exactly what we did. I looked at it. And I thought, it's not right. But then you look closer. And the, to Elena, from George had actually been copied very, very closely from a letter that we had sold a few years before, that was addressed to Elena. And then at the end of the letter signed from George, and it was done in the exact same way, as the letter was. So when we put two and two side by side, it was clear that someone had with, you know, a relatively good hand, copied it. But then if you really look closely, and get it, you know, get it well photographed. And zoom all the way in as if you're looking at it under a microscope, you can see that the the way the ink gathers on the paper is unnatural. When you're signing your name, usually it's a fluid process, right? You if you're signing, you know a letter from neck, you just right neck, whereas you could see it the way the ink had gathered on this paper, it had been done really slowly and deliberately. So and when you go into that depths, you discover the what was a book, you were, you know, willing to write a check for an awful lot of money for is despoiled and worthless.

Nick VinZant 47:06

Was it actually a first edition? Could you tell if that's actually a bachelor's? Right?

Tom Ayling 47:09

Yeah, it was genuinely a first edition, which is a which is a you know, 567 1000 pound book on its own. So some fools, they've made a mistake.

Nick VinZant 47:28

Ah, so they basically instead of, they tried to double their money and then said they lost it. All right. And then now it's Yeah. But then can that book become if it turns out it's the master criminal of the world, the Moriarty of the whatever century we're in now, then is that book suddenly like,

Tom Ayling 47:49

it doesn't become it doesn't. I mean, it can become a curiosity. There was a famous bookseller called Thomas Wise, who was operating in the in the late 19th, early 20th century, who became a master forger of of books to the extent that someone can be and would, you know, run off prints of of pamphlets that people have thought will last forever and forge signatures and mixed books to gather to. To sort of fake up copies. And he was he was found out in a in a sort of very scholarly paper that was published. And those sorts of famous forgeries have a certain cachet, and is an interesting thing to collect. Because the history of forging things is an interesting history. And it's part of rightfully a part of book history. But it doesn't make it anything, like the real thing in terms of in terms of monetary value. And if we're talking about I mean, why it was interesting, because he was doing it with, with sort of entire objects, you know, like a whole pamphlet or something. If we're just talking about a sign signature, it just makes the book total nonstarter. It doesn't mean that someone went by it thinking it's the real thing.

Nick VinZant 49:22

Is there a holy grail there, like everybody is looking for this? We know it somewhere. If I find this, I will be the coolest person at the antiquarian book dealers convention.

Tom Ayling 49:37

There are a few such things. I can actually what I can tell you something that actually I'll tell you a real story about something that that happened recently, and it made someone the coolest person at the antiquarian booksellers convention. So in New York, every winter in Do I sort of in March or April, there's the New York antiquarian book fair. And I was a couple of weeks out before the fair, I saw an article pop up from the New York Times, saying that a, an American in London bookseller had between them acquired the final lost manuscript of Charlotte Bronte, who, who, when she was young, would produce these tiny little books, of poems and little stories and things. And these were sold at auction in the late 19th, early 20th century, and who truly been scattered to the four winds. And over the intervening 100 years, they have slowly made their way back to the Bronte parsonage Museum at the house where the Bronte sisters lived. But there was this one that everyone knew existed, because we can see in the auction catalog from from sort of 1914 1917 that it had been sold, but no one knew where it was. And then it appeared in a booth at the New York antiquarian book fair, this April. And that was a very, very cool thing to see in person. And particularly since there's a happy ending to the story, which is to say that the Bronte parsonage museum with the quite significant help of a fabulous organization here in the UK, called Friends of the national libraries, managed to acquire the book from them and return at home. So that sort of thing, and there are equivalent lost manuscripts for a whole series of authors. That would be wonderful to find writers like Jane Austen and say that it would be wonderful to to uncover

Nick VinZant 52:08

that's pretty much all the questions we got man, is there anything that we you think we missed? Or people want to know more? How can they find you? How can they find the shop all that stuff?

Tom Ayling 52:17

Okay, well, the shop I work for is called Yonkers read books. In Henley on Thames, we have an open shop, so anyone is welcome to come and visit. And we also have a website where we have all of our stock listed. That's yonkers.k.uk. And if you want to keep up with what I'm doing, then I'm on Tiktok, and Instagram, and my ad is Tom W. ailing.

Boredom Researcher James Danckert

Why do we get bored and what can we do about it? As a Boredom Researcher,Psychologist James Danckert is trying to answer those questions. We talk boredom, how to be more interesting, the secret to staying focused and what boredom is doing to your brain. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Boring Things.

James Danckert: 01:14ish

Pointless: 56:13ish

Top 5: 01:11:51ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.jamesdanckert.com (James Danckert Website)

https://twitter.com/jamesdanckert (James Danckert Twitter)

https://www.amazon.com/Out-My-Skull-Psychology-Boredom/dp/0674984676 (Out of My Skull - James Danckert Book

James Danckert: Boredom Researcher Interview

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the science of boredom, and the most boring things,

James Danckert 0:22

boredom is this uncomfortable state of wanting, but failing to engage with the world. I don't like to make the judgment is boredom, good or bad? It's what we do with it that makes it good or bad, but the signal itself is useful. It's functional. And what do I mean by that? It's, it's a call to action. When we're bored. There is this tendency for some of us at least to engage in aggressive and harmful behaviors.

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance to subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it helps out the show. And more than anything, we just like hearing from you. So our first guest studies boredom, why we get bored? Why some people get more bored than others? And what we can do about it? This is boredom researcher, James Danker. Why do we get bored?

James Danckert 1:15

There's lots of different reasons why we might get bored, right? The primary one that most people think about is monotony. If something's just unchanging over and over again, you know, that sort of monotony that repetition, that nothing's changing, that can be very boring. One of the things that a colleague of mine wine and Van Tilburg says to if we find things meaningless, right, so if what you're doing, you know, you feel like you're constrained because you have to do it, you can't get out of it. But you're just looking at it thinking this is pointless, this is just doesn't matter to me. And then I can't see how to make it matter to me, that will make the board as well. There are situations to where, you know, if you find yourself trying to have been challenged to do something, but it's just way outside of your capacities. Maybe before you started, you thought it wasn't going to be maybe you thought you'd be able to cope. But for whatever reason, it's just this is way too complex. You mentioned one of your podcasts with the particle physicist, you know, some of us might sit in a particle physicist lecture and think, Man, I thought this was going to be interesting, but I just can't keep up. That could get you're bored as well. So there's any number of sort of circumstances that will lead us to being bored, I think, monotony and meaning are the two heavy units on that front.

Nick VinZant 2:25

Does it matter? Like how, how engaging the activity is, right? Like I think of Okay, everybody knows that doing taxes can be boring, but like, can people get bored going skydiving, like, if you're just not interested, and you do it all the time? Like is somebody going to be like, alright, jumping out of this plane again.

James Danckert 2:45

I took a couple of jumps out of airplanes when I was a younger person, younger and silly a person and thought it was great fun and thought I might do more of it and ended up not for various sorts of reasons. I don't know if you can get bored jumping out of an airplane. But the first thing you asked was, you know, doesn't matter how engaging it is. And that's absolutely the thing that matters, right? If whatever it is that you're doing, if it's not engaging, you're going to find it boring. And when you bring up the example of someone like a skydiver? Well, typically those guys don't just sort of spend 20 years doing the same jump over and over again, they don't they challenge themselves, they might do team jumps, they might do jumps with 30 people to see what sort of figuration configurations they can do, they might go from jumping from planes to base jumping, always, in some sense, it feels a little bit like an addictive behavior, always upping the adrenaline for some of these people, not for all, but also just changing what the goal is and changing what it is that you're trying to achieve, right. Because I think regardless of what we do, whether it's taxes, or skydiving, if it's the same every time, then we're not challenging ourselves. That sort of brings me to an aspect of boredom. It's really critical. I think that when we're bored, it's sort of made pretty obvious to us that we're not being very effective agents, right, we're not exercising our agency, which is to say, we're not pursuing goals that we've chosen in the way that we want to pursue them. And so you know, you want to change it up. And that will be true for the skydiver as much as it is for the tax accountant.

Nick VinZant 4:15

So can we will ourselves out of this right? I think that anybody who has a job will can relate in the sense that there are things that you just have to do that you have no interest in doing right? Can we just will our way out of this, even if it's just something that I just don't care about this thing? It's gonna be

James Danckert 4:36

tough, right? I mean, I think sometimes that sort of puts the onus right back on the person, which is something that's interesting about boredom, because it really is in you. It's something that you're feeling you're feeling disengaged, you'll want something but you don't know what it is and you can't done or whether or not you're going to be able to satisfy with that sort of job circumstance that you mentioned. Sometimes you feel constrained, you're stuck. You really can't get out of that sort of circumstance. But what that question sparks in May is the old adage that people use many parents have used it on their kids, that only boring people get bored. So we're really sort of casting a moral judgment about being bored with So say, if you're bored, you have to fix it. And there's truth to that, that we do have to be the author of our own way out of boredom. But I think it's probably a little bit unfair to cast that moral judgment, because there are going to be circumstances where you can't just will yourself out of it, right? Those sorts of circumstances where we're constrained, you're stuck at a job that you have to finish this task. This is what you're getting paid for. You know, and there is a couple of I think that were Swedish, but I might be I might be wrong, or Danish authors that talk about bore out which at work, which is the sort of opposite of burnout, if you think, and, you know, these were people that were finding their jobs so miserable, because they were bored with them. And ultimately, it gets to the final sort of decision that you have to make, which is to say, All right, get a different job, right, do something else that does engage you, that is meaningful to you. And it does matter, too. But, but I wouldn't I be cautious about casting that sort of moral judgment too harshly that, you know, only boring people get bored. And it's, it's entirely up to you. I think there's something to be said for, you know, there are circumstances that are outside of our control, that are pretty good. Producers of boredom. You know, I mean, imagine working on an assembly line, you've got to stand there and do the thing that you have to do quality control the widgets that are going past you. So how much of that circumstance? Can you as an individual really be expected to change?

Nick VinZant 6:40

Do we need to be bored, though? Like, is there something in our brains that like, look, boredom? Is boredom, good? In a way?

James Danckert 6:49

That's a great question, and essentially says, you know, what's the purpose of being bored? And that's a question that we asked a lot of affective experiences, what's the purpose? What's the function of being sad or angry, or so on. And some of them seem more obvious than others. But boredom absolutely serves a purpose in our lives, it absolutely has a function that's worthwhile for us. So I don't like to make the judgment is boredom, good or bad? It's what we do with it, that makes it good or bad, but the signal itself is useful, it's functional. And what do I mean by that? It's, it's a call to action. So what boredom is telling us in that moment, when we feel it, it's saying, whatever you're doing right now, is not satisfying you. Maybe not meaningful enough, it's maybe not challenging enough, you need to find something else, you need to explore your environment for something else. And when you suggest that boredom serves a functional sort of purpose in our lives, you're also sort of hinting at the fact that it might indeed have an evolutionary history. If boredom is functional, then presumably it was selected for and if it was selected for evolution, then presumably, we can see it in other animals. And you can, so anyone that's owned a dog knows that dogs get bored, right? You come home, and you've got one of your shoes torn up while the dog was bored. And so we tore up your shoe, we didn't have any malice in it. But scientifically, we've also sort of demonstrated this. So Georgia Mason and Rebecca Miga, did a fantastic study with mink. And they house these mink in two different cages, really boring cages or interesting cages that had things that the mink could do. And at the end of two weeks of being in these different cages, then they showed them different sorts of objects, objects that the mink might normally like to approach, like a toothbrush, apparently, according to this research, mink, and toothbrushes are like cats and laser points, they just love him. And so then they show them objects that were neutral, just a bottle of water. And then they show them things that the animal would normally avoid, like the smell of a predator. And their logic was that if the animals in the bad cages in the boring cages, if they were depressed, or if they were sad, they might just fail to approach the things they normally liked. they'd leave the toothbrush alone, right? Or if they were apathetic, they wouldn't approach anything, they just become the couch potato and lay there. But if they were bored, they'd approach all kinds of things indiscriminately, even the stuff that they don't normally approach. And that's what they found, they found that the animals like, Give me something give me anything to to latch on to here. So yeah, boredom is evident in animals. And it has that evolutionary history to it. And it serves that function. It serves that purpose for us, it pushes us to act.

Nick VinZant 9:26

It kind of sounds like it lets us know what we don't like and then opens us up to trying new things.

James Danckert 9:32

Yeah, you can say it that way. I mean, I think one of the things that sort of frustrating a negative about boredom, when you're feeling it is that when you say it opens us up to new things. It doesn't do the hard work of figuring out what those new things will be that's on you, right? Boredom is not going to say, Oh, look, here's an opportunity. Boredom is just gonna say go find an opportunity. Right? So this is sort of classic. We need it. You know, anyone who's listening who has young children, you know, your child comes to you and they say I'm bored, right? And as any parent knows, then you said have say, Okay, well, why don't you go read a book? Or why don't you go play basketball with your brother? Or why don't you ride your bike and the kid says no to all of those options, they dismiss all of them at once. Because what they're saying is, I thought of all of those options too, and they just don't, I just don't think they're gonna do it for me. So you want something when you're bored, but you're just not sure what it is the quote, I love the most comes from Leo Tolstoy in Anna Karenina, where he describes on we as the desire for desires. So when you're bored, you really know you want something, but you just don't know what it is. So yes, it can open opportunities, but it can't solve itself for you.

Nick VinZant 10:36

Is there something physically happening in our brain, when we get bored, like, you could monitor the brain and like, Oh, I see this, that guy's bored, that girl is bored.

James Danckert 10:49

It's not quite as simple as that, in terms of you're picking up an individual signal that sort of says, that's definitely the signature of being bored. But and we're in the sort of nascent stages of that kind of research, there's a long way to go to try and figure out what the brain correlates are of being bored. But there are a couple of things that we do know. So one of the things about being bored is that you're often disengaged, you're not, you're struggling to focus your attention on the task at hand. And we've shown using EEG or electrical signals from the brain, that there are sort of specific signals that are normally associated with being able to focus attention. And those signals are diminished or lowered when we're bored. Right. So that sort of fits well with this story that when you're bored, you're not poking focusing attention well. And then we've also done some functional MRI. And in that we made use of what's known as a resting state scan. So when you put somebody in an MRI machine, and you just ask them to do nothing but sit there, you get a series of brain areas that are activated, a fairly commonly and this, this network of brain areas is known as the default mode network. And it's sort of activated for a range of different things that can be thought of as internal thought processes. So if you're daydreaming, if your mind wandering, if you're thinking about the past, or even if you're planning for something that you need to do in the future, these internal thoughts that you have these thoughts activate the default mode network. But when we put people in a magnet, and we made them bored, and we did this by having them watch a video of two guys hanging laundry for eight minutes, which, as you can imagine, is pretty boring. We saw activation in the default mode network. And so why that's interesting is because there is something out there in the world for you to attend to this movie. But the movie is so boring, it's so terrible, that you sort of switch off from the movie and go into those internal reveries that activate the default network. So as I say, there's a lot more to be done to try and understand the brain activity associated with being bored. But those are some of the things that we know already.

Nick VinZant 12:49

Is there any indication that I guess, well, you know, we met we talked about the idea of starting with the first question a little bit like, well, what he's bored of?

James Danckert 13:00

Yeah. So boredom is this uncomfortable state of wanting, but failing to engage with the world, you really want to be doing something that matters to you, that's meaningful to you. But you can't figure out what that thing might be. And so one of the things that's most commonly associated with people being bored, when you ask them, How do you feel is that they'll report being restless and agitated. And this is what differentiates boredom from something like apathy. If you're apathetic, you don't care. You don't really need to get up off the couch and do anything meaningful. And that's just not boredom, that's apathy. Whereas when you're bored, you feel uncomfortable, you want to be engaged, but you can't quite manage it, you can't quite figure out what that thing will be. And it is also so that's that, that sort of phenomenology, it feels bad, and you want to be engaged. From a cognitive point of view, it's typically a disengaged state, you're not focusing your attention very well. And from a sort of an existential point of view, it has a lot to do with meaning in your life, right. So when we're bored, we're looking around casting about, and thinking that most of the stuff that's available to us just doesn't seem that meaningful. And so those are the best ways I can sort of describe the experience for you.

Nick VinZant 14:14

How did you get into this?

James Danckert 14:17

Yeah, this sort of to

Nick VinZant 14:18

say, you know, what I want to you know, what I want to research is boredom.

James Danckert 14:22

Yeah, I didn't turn to my parents when I was eight and say, Hey, Mom, Dad, I really want to grow up to be a boredom researcher. There are two things that got me into boredom research. So the first one, and I think this is really common in psychologists, we tend to research what we're bad at. Right? So I experienced boredom a fair bit from my early 20s. I started sort of experiencing it a lot. And then you know, it's diminished now, as it does for most people in later years. But every time I experienced it, I hate it. I really dislike being bored. And so when I got into research and trying to understand the brain a little bit, you know, this felt like a topic that I could I could plumb the depths of and try and understand a little bit better. And the other reason is a little bit more personal. So when I was 19, my older brother had a car crash and suffered a severe traumatic brain injury as a consequence of that car crash. He recovered, and he recovered to the point where, you know, he was living independently and working and so on. But one of the things that he said after he got to that point of recovery is that he felt bored a lot, and a lot more than he did before his car crash. And so that suggested to me that that something organic had changed in his brain, something about the threshold for experiencing pleasure or being engaged, had been raised as a function of his brain injury, because the part of the brain that was damaged in him that is commonly damaged in people who have car accidents, is the orbital frontal cortex is just above your eyes. And that part of the brain is critical for representing value and reward. And so then I went to university and trained as a clinical neuropsychologist and I had the chance to sort of assess people who'd had similar brain injuries to my brother. And I would ask them in the time that we spent together, you know, are you more bored now than you were before your brain injury? And to a number they all said, Yes. And to me, they, it wasn't just that, they said, Yes, they almost leapt out of their seats, and thank God, yes, yes, I'm so bored, you know. And that said to me that, you know, this was an important part of their experience post brain damage, and no one had asked him about it. And no one had thought it was really worthwhile, they thought it was kind of trivial, but to them, it was not trivial. It was a big change, and a consequential change in their lives. So I don't do that clinical work anymore. But we have done some research showing that indeed, people who have had traumatic brain injuries do have higher levels of boredom. And so yeah, that those are the two things that got me interested in that, in this research.

Nick VinZant 16:46

Are certain people more than predisposed certain, like predisposed to becoming bored? Do people get? Does it vary from person to person, like how quickly they get bored? Yeah, so

James Danckert 16:59

we talk about trait boredom proneness. And so some people are high in boredom proneness, and some people are low in it. So there is a wide range of how often people feel it. And there are a range of sort of individual differences that we would talk about that make someone a little bit more prone to boredom, one of the common ones that we've researched a lot is the capacity for self control. And I want to be clear here about what we're sort of talking about. This is not what a lot of people think about in terms of sort of impulse control. So some of your listeners might be familiar with this marshmallow test, you know, you put a marshmallow in front of the kid, and you say, you can have that marshmallow now, or you can wait five minutes and have three, and most kids just stuffed their face with the marshmallow, right, because they don't show the impulse control to wait for the for the for the bigger reward. And there's all kinds of work, some are suggesting that there has long term consequences in their lives, because people who demonstrate lower levels of self control have poor outcomes for mental health and achievement, and so on. And what we find is the boredom prone people are highly border prone, also tend to have lower levels of self control. And so that's a really important individual difference. They tend to also there's sort of different ways in which humans pursue goals. And one of the distinctions that social psychologists will make is between what's sort of colloquially known as a JUST DO IT mode, people who get on with things, people just go from one goal to the next, and they very rapidly transition. And then I sort of do the right thing mode, people who prefer to sort of assess their options, and make sure that they make the choice, that's the best choice and then make sure not to make errors, and so on. And each one of us can adopt these models at different times. It's not as though you're one or the other, right. And each of those modes is good, under different circumstances, it's good sometimes to sort of weigh up your options and make sure you choose the right thing. And it's good sometimes to just get on with it. But what we find is that the bottom prone people tend to be those do the right thing, people that they tend to worry more about the options for action. So they tend then to fail to launch into action because they, they haven't sort of you know, they're not comfortable with the choices that are in front of them. So that's an individual difference in how people perceive goals that is important. There are there are a number of others as well, we find that people who are high in neuroticism, so they tend to have a lot of worry about life, they tend to be higher in boredom proneness as well. And there's even things that like people who are higher in what's known as covert narcissism. So covert narcissism is a person who sort of believes the world has failed to see their talents as failed to see how brilliant they are. And so they're sort of a bit bitter about it, but they're not the arrogant in your face narcissist. They just sort of a bit bitter about the fact that the world hasn't recognized their skills and talents yet, those people tend to also be high in boredom proneness. So those are the kinds of individual differences that we know about so far that are associated with being more likely to experience boredom.

Nick VinZant 20:00

Is it tied to just overall intelligence in any way?

James Danckert 20:04

It's so it's an interesting question that there's not a lot of research to suggest that it's tied to intelligence that more or less intelligent people are more or less likely to be bored. It does have an impact on achievement. So we find that people who are more bored and prone don't tend to do quite so well in school. But it's not a big difference. It's not as though a boredom prone person goes from an ace student to a D student. You know, it's more like a couple of points that are a loss, but sort of fairly consistently. So intelligence, you know, hasn't shown up as a prime factor in boredom. proneness.

Nick VinZant 20:38

Is there, like physical differences in people's brains were like, well, I guess we kind of talked about that already. Or correct me if I'm wrong, right, like a physical difference that this person is just going to be much more prone to boredom than something else. So while we already kind of talk about that,

James Danckert 20:55

well, what we talked about before was sort of functional changes, right? So I was talking about EEG electrical signals in the brain that show that when you're when we're bored, we were sort of not attending very well. And I talked about the default networks. And when we're bored, we tend to have this internal focus instead of focusing on the task in front of us as we should be. Those are functional changes in the brain, when you ask, are there structural differences? And is there something physically different, there's only one study that came out fairly recently, just about six months ago or so which was fascinating to me, where they looked at gray matter volume, so just the size of different parts of the brain. And they did find that highly boredom prone people had reduced gray matter, in some midline structures of the brain, the precuneus, and the posterior cingulate again, this is also big jargon for your listeners, but in the middle of the brain. And the precuneus is, you know, very important for focusing and sustaining attention. And so, it might not be that surprising that individuals who struggle to focus their attention, also struggle with boredom proneness, and that the brain structures necessary for focusing attention are not as the luminous as they are in people who don't have those same struggles. But you know, at the moment, one of the things that's happening in neuroscience is we need a lot larger numbers of people to look at these things and have confidence in these effects. So they ate I think, around 70 people in that study, we need more like 7000. And so we need to do these sort of human connectome kind of projects to confirm data of that kind,

Nick VinZant 22:23

the big questions that I had going into this, right, like, Okay, well, why do we get bored? And then how do we, how do we keep ourselves from getting bored?

James Danckert 22:32

That's the $64,000 question. And I get asked a lot. And the bottom line is that we don't have any really good data about this, you know, one of the trends over the past two decades, I think, is, you know, for people to sort of tout mindfulness training and mindfulness meditation as a kind of solution to everything. I'm highly skeptical of that. And I'm certainly skeptical of it for boredom. Because in order to engage in mindfulness meditation, you need to have your attention, focus on the meditation, whatever it is, whether it's, you know, whatever various kinds of mindfulness meditation styles there are. And so if you get bored, and prime person who struggles to focus their attention, and you say, I know what's going to fix it here, focus your attention, think it's probably not going to work. But we, but we just don't have the data yet. So we'd need to do those kinds of intervention studies, find people who are sort of chronically bored, and engage them with some sort of tricks and strategies or techniques and see whether or not that improved their boredom long term. So the kinds of things that I say, at the moment, when I get asked this question is that there's a sort of triumvirate of things that you can do. When you're in the moment of being bored. I'm not sure how well this helps the chronic bored person. But when you're in that moment, the first thing to do is to take a deep breath. So as I mentioned before, one of the most common things people report when they're bored is that they report feeling agitated, and restless. Well, it's pretty hard to figure out what you want to do next, or what you think would be a meaningful thing to engage with when you're restless when you're agitated when you're pacing around, right? So just to calm down, take a deep breath, and allow that restlessness to dissipate as a first step. The second two steps are really contemplative. And the first one would be to say, Well, why am I bored right now? What is it about the circumstance I'm in? And what that allows you to do is to perhaps reframe it to think about it differently. So you know, people who work on assembly lines are not always bored, because they can sometimes reframe the task. There's evidence that people on assembly lines will say that they tried to beat their personal best on the line every hour, while they've just turned a monotonous and potentially boring task into a personal challenge. And now it's not boring. And so if you find yourself in a moment of boredom, perhaps you can do the same thing. You can reframe the circumstance to be more meaningful to be more purposeful for you and now you won't be bored as much. And the third thing is that the other contemplative aspect of this seems to sort of spend some time considering what your goals are. Right? So boredom is showing us that in this moment, what we're doing is to us not very meaningful, well, what is meaningful to us? Right? We don't spend a lot of time in our lives thinking about that, considering, what are the goals that I have? Am I pursuing them? Well? And if not, can I pursue them better. And when I talk about goals like that, I want to be careful about sort of setting people up for, you know, unrealistic expectations. I'm not talking about grand goals. I'm not saying that, you know, every time you get bored, you should start to ponder why you haven't yet cured cancer, I'm thinking about any type of goal that's personally relevant to you. And they could be big and small. And it could be from anything from, you know, wanting to sort of foster better relationships with your family and friends, or wanting to get something small achieved in a hobby, doesn't really matter what the size or scope of the goal is, what matters is that it matters to you. So those would be the three things that I suggest people could try and do when they're when they're in the moment of being bored. And then the only other thing I suggest, and this, I think would work for kids. And well, I hope it would work for kids. And teenagers. As I say, I'll repeat, we don't have the data.

Although there's one paper I can talk about. One thing you could do preemptively is make a plan. So the one paper I'm thinking about comes from water, shoot and colleagues, and they looked at boredom in the pandemic, which you know, something people got really interested in all of a sudden, when we were shut down in our houses, it's like, Oh, my God, boredom is going to descend. So they did a study where they looked at how well people had coped in the pandemic, and whether or not they coped well with their boredom. And one of the things that stuck in my mind is that they found that if people had a plan to cope with their boredom, they coped better they did well, people without a plan, people hadn't thought ahead, did very poorly, and had, you know, poor outcomes because of it. So if you sit down with your children, your teenagers or if you do it for yourself, because you find that you're experiencing boredom, a lot sit down in a car moment and say, Well, what's my boredom plan, right? And that can be here's the top five things I might go to. And it might also be when those top five fail, here's the next thing I'm going to do, I'll go for a run, or I'll, or I'll tidy my closet or do something, right? It's the backup activity, when the top five things that you list in your boredom plan don't work, because there's no guarantee that they will. I often I like to say that, you know, my best boredom solution personally is like guitar, oh, turn to it whenever I'm bored, and just start playing around. And I might play songs that I know, or songs that I've written, or I might just tinker. And it's about 80% effective. So that means that 20% of the time, I go to it, and I'm still bored, didn't work for whatever reason. So I think you have to have that expectation that whatever you put together in your boredom plan, be ready for a backup to that plan, because your first five things might not work.

Nick VinZant 27:57

Okay, the I don't know if this will be necessarily helpful for the audience or not. But can we kind of self diagnose my boredom if we can. So like, and this is, this is something that kind of fascinates me and was the impetus about learning more about this is like, I love this podcast. I love the people that we talk to, I find it fascinating. But when I go to Edit, and kind of put everything together, there are times that I get so bored. And this is a slog, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm 10 minutes into this 50 minute interview. Oh, this is awful. I guess. I know, this is hard. But like, why would that happen? Even though I'm interested in it? I'm passionate about it. And still, my brain is like, Oh,

James Danckert 28:48

I think that that first the first thing I say about that is totally and utterly normalize it. Right. I've been involved with a few film documentaries, and quite surprised that in both instances, I was probably interviewed for a total of about eight hours, and it wound up it wouldn't have been more than about two minutes in the movie, right? So these are people who have done the eight hours of interviewing me, then they have to go back and do what you just said and edit that eight hours. And they edited it down to minutes, and then try and fit it in with the film where it sort of makes sense for them. That's a slog, right. And also, if I talk about my own work with science, you devise an experiment, you think about the task that you're going to do. It's exciting, you're working with your students, they go and they collect the data, they show you the data. That's the peak excitement point when they're showing you the data. Because now you you learn something new. And now you have to spend the next six months writing it up and convincing a journal to publish it and it might take more than six months. That's the trudge that that's a slow sort of drudgery. You've gone past the excitement phase, and you're into the phase. Well, now I have to do the slog, right. And I think that's just completely and utterly normal. And, and it's so when you say you know, I'm fully interested in it. You're interested in the here and now and it is interactive right now. Humans, we're social beasts, right? But when you get to the stuff of editing it, that's not as interactive. That's just you on your own. And it and you know what's ahead of you. And you've already had the conversation so you know what the conversation content is going to be like. But now you've got to trudge through it and cut it and paste it to make it the product you want it to be.

Nick VinZant 30:21

That makes sense. Is there like, I always think of the idea of like a runner, you know, you get the second wind, right? Can we push past our boredom? And then, you know, like, runners, for people who aren't familiar, you're running, you get tired, he's like, oh, I want to quit, I want to quit. And then you get a second win, and then you get revitalized. And you can keep going. If you're in a task, and you start to get bored with it, like, Does that happen with boredom, where you just you got to break through the wall, and then you're good to go?

James Danckert 30:48

Personally, I haven't experienced that myself. I think that if I get bored, what I need is a complete break of circumstance. But there may well be people out there listening that don't have exactly had that, you know, pushing through the wall using that runners analogy that you're talking about. It's interesting that you bring up the runners analogy. I mean, first of all, I've never seen anybody running on the streets, it looks happy. I don't understand why people do it. But But

Nick VinZant 31:10

I say that to my wife, every time I see somebody running like I don't run, because I've never seen someone who looked like they were enjoying it running.

James Danckert 31:18

Yeah. So clearly, the runners will tell you, they, they enjoyed the high of breaking through the wall, they enjoyed the high of finishing it and being through and at the end. But a colleague of mine, Vanya, Wolf, in Germany, he, he looks at this, you know, willpower is what he looks at, in terms of and boredom and self control, in terms of how to athletes push through this sort of stuff, right? Because if maybe we can learn some lessons about how athletes push through the pain barriers, but also for a runner and training, you know, repetition training in the gym or repetition training of skills for for other sorts of athletes, that repetition is monotonous and boring. How do the athletes push through it? So particularly professional athletes? So he's working on that sort of data? Now, I don't have anything great to report to you. But I suspect the answer will be that with some amount of willpower, whatever willpower is, you might be able to push through an episode of boredom. But personally, I think that the best way out of boredom is to just break the cycle. And so like I say, stay calm, do that contemplation, but maybe then just do a different task for five minutes, right? And you know, you talked about, I get distracted in the middle of a movie, and then I can't get back to the movie. But that sort of distraction, if it's intentional, might allow you to get back to your job with a little bit of renewed vigor or energy. But as I say, we haven't done the studies on this kind of stuff. This is all just my opinion.

Nick VinZant 32:38

You know, I think of always in terms of like opposites, and the only thing that I can compare it to that I've heard about is like the flow state or somebody, usually, it's like extreme athletes are just totally totally completely focused. Can we learn anything? Like does the opposite of boredom teach us anything about boredom?

James Danckert 32:58

Yeah, I think it does. But I think what I would say to you is that there are many opposites of boredom. And flow is only one. And flow is a fickle, fickle beast, I mean, any of your listeners who've experienced it, you know, the thing to contemplate about flow is, have you ever intentionally tried to make it happen? And I think that the answer to that is that it's very, very hard to do. Like you find yourself in flow almost accidentally, at times. And, you know, there are great feelings is very positive feeling. You feel like you're making progress on your goals, and you feel like you just performing beautifully, and the rest of the world has just dropped away and doesn't even need to exist. But it's hard to manufacture. Right? So but the good news is, it's not the only opposite of boredom, there are a heap of things. So being curious, is an opposite of boredom. Because you can't be bored. While you're curious. Same time, if you're curious about something, if you're inquisitive about something that you cannot be bored, at the same time, those two things are sort of antithetical to one another. Just being engaged, right? So you don't need the extreme state of flow. You know, if you've sat through a movie, and you didn't get distracted by your phone, while you're probably engaged by it, that's an opposite of boredom. But you didn't have to be in the flow state, you were just engaged by the movie. And there's any number of things that we can be engaged by. And I think another one that you can engage in meditation, as I talked about before, it's very hard to imagine being bored if you're successfully meditating. Right. And that brings me to the last one that I think it's the opposite of, of boredom that I think is a really interesting case study. And that is relaxation. Right? So when most of us go on holidays, we're not necessarily going gung ho at any particular task. We might be on the beach reading a pop novel of, you know, some detective novel or something that we don't care about. We won't remember once we finished. So we're not really doing anything particularly meaningful. We're not doing anything particularly challenging, and yet we're not bored. But we're sort of engaging in being relaxed Just write because we need that recharge time where we we've sought that recharge time. So there's two things then that I point out as opposites of boredom that I think are key and help us understand boredom a little bit better. So one is that the opposite of boredom in all its many forms is just being engaged. So if you're engaged with the world, either because you're curious or you're relaxing, or you're in flow, then you can't be bored. Right? So that is the sort of opposite of boredom. And the second thing is that it gets back to this notion, I think, of agency. So when you're the one that's in control, when you're the one choosing what you're doing now, I don't think it's I think it's very hard for me to imagine also being bored, right? So you're choosing to relax. You're choosing to meditate, you're choosing to be in Missouri, choosing to be in a flow state, but you're choosing to engage with whatever task is when you're demonstrating to yourself that you're the agent, you're the author of your actions. And in that state when you're successfully expressing your agency. I think it's very hard to be bored.

Nick VinZant 36:03

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

James Danckert 36:06

Fantastic. Yes.

Nick VinZant 36:08

What do you think about the saying only bored people are boring?

James Danckert 36:12

Yeah, the boring people get bored. It's a moral judgment. And I don't think it's right. What I think it says is that people who make that claim just deal with their boredom exceptionally well. So in the book that I wrote with my colleague, John Eastwood, out of my skull, we interviewed we had the good fortune, I had the good fortune of interviewing Chris Hadfield, who was the Canadian astronaut who ran the International Space Station in the 2010s. And Hetfield claims that only boring people get bored, and that he never gets bored. And then you have a conversation with him that goes on for a little while you find out that's not true, he gets bored. So he grew up on a farm in southwestern Ontario. And he describes, you know, plowing the fields, he said, he really enjoyed plowing the fields, you'd see this open field in front of you, and you plowed field behind you. So you could see your progress. And you could understand that, you know, you're achieving a goal and you're doing a good job. But what he really hated was this other job he had to do, which was known as, as harrowing and harrowing. I had no idea what this was, he's apparently plowing a field that's already been plowed. So you're breaking up big chunks of mud and making it into smaller chunks of mud. So in front of you as mud behind you is mud, you can't see your progress, and it's boring. And so he said that whenever he had to do that, he would challenge himself by trying to see how long he could hold his breath for. And I'm like, thinking in the back of my mind, if you want to insult the guy, but you're probably not the greatest idea to be doing something like that, while you have, you know, piloting heavy machinery. But that's alright. The point being that Chris Hadfield indeed gets bored, but when he does, he almost immediately find something to occupy his mind, that puts the boredom aside. And so I think that for the people who say only boring people get bored, what they're really saying is that, you know, when I get bored, I'm really quickly dealing with it. So why aren't you? And one of the things too, that we know from a recent study, again, from from a colleague of mine in the UK, one and Van Tilburg is that there's actually characteristics of boring people that are not about how often they get bored. We called people as being boring if they don't listen to us. So if people who are sort of a bit more narcissistic, and I mean, now the kind of grandiose, overt narcissistic, that commandeer every conversation, and never really listened to what you've got to say, I think of those people as being bores. And so it's just not true that people who experience boredom, boredom, unnecessarily boring themselves, it's just not the case.

Nick VinZant 38:41

Why are some people boring, though, right? Like, some people are just like, God, that person is boring. Is it? Is it them? Or is it me?

James Danckert 38:52

potentially an interaction, right? So that there are, you know, there's someone out there for all of us, right? So, yeah, we find humans with, we're able to sort of partner up and find social groups and make connections for in all sorts of different ways. And that's one of the great things about humanity, I guess. So, you know, people who you might consider ENCODE has been thoroughly boring. Hopefully, they still have a social network of some kind. The thing that that came out in that more recent study was that, yeah, people who just don't listen, you know, if you're in a conversation, and you don't engage the other person, we all want to feel like what we do matters. But if you're the only person talking, and you're the only one that's got anything that you think is relevant than everyone else's, has to sort of take a backseat. And that is not really the best way for social interactions to evolve. And so I think that's one of the main characteristics that makes makes us code other people as being boring.

Nick VinZant 39:47

Is there like, is this a mathematical formula in some way? And maybe this is a great analogy. Maybe this is a terrible analogy, but can you look at certain things and be like, Okay, that is going to be boring too. People, if you make a movie about this, and you put this in it, and you put that in and you put this in it, people are gonna get bored. Like, can you look at things and be like, that's boring? That's not,

James Danckert 40:12

not really because it's it is a kind of what makes something boring or not boring is a little bit like happiness, what makes you happy is sort of idiosyncratic to you, right? I can't sort of tell you, you know what, you should do this, because this makes me happy, I shouldn't do that, and hope that somehow that that's going to work for you. And if the same thing is true of boredom, whatever makes me happy, or whatever makes me bored is unique to me, you know, there's millions of people out there who are philatelists, that spent a lot of their time poring over stamps and looking at stamps, and they get great joy out of it. And many of us might look at that and say, I can't imagine anything more boring. Well, too bad. You don't have to. Because you know, that's that just means it's not for you. So I don't think there's anything that we can point to and say that that's an objectively boring thing.

Nick VinZant 40:57

What is people's reaction? When you tell them you're a boredom researcher,

James Danckert 41:00

I laugh is that the first thing people do is they laugh. I mean, if you go out to a party of, you know, get together with people, and you want to end a conversation, first thing you do is, you know, people say, Well, what are you doing? The first thing you do is you say, I'm a psychologist, that usually ends the conversation, because people are like, Oh, crap, he's, he's analyzing me now. And it's like, if they probe further, you can say, No, I'm not that kind of psychologist, I don't want to know about your relationship with your mother. But then, you know, another way that you can enter conversations, you can say, I'm a professor, and I Okay. And people sort of tend to think, Well, you're a snooty intellectual, and you won't want to talk to anybody who's not also a snooty intellectual, which is not true of most of my colleagues. But I think that's what some people assume. And then the last way to enter conversation fairly rapidly, but not as badly. So So what do you research? Boredom? People tend to laugh, because they think really, that just that doesn't even sound like a thing. Why is that a thing? And then, then you spend the next couple of minutes explaining to them why it's a thing and why it's important. It's consequential. And that's probably we should then talk about sports or something after that.

Nick VinZant 42:07

I guess that's one of the questions that we kind of had. And something that I was wondering is like, I know, there's not a way to like rank this in terms of a scale of one to 10. But how big of a problem is boredom for us? Yeah, like, is it an inconvenience? Or is like, No, this is a real problem for some people.

James Danckert 42:24

Yeah, I love this phrase that someone gave me a journalist actually gave me many years ago, now that she thought that boredom was just part of the furniture of life, you know, seems to be a trivial thing. And I think that people have treated it as a trivial thing as part of the furniture of life. But it's not It's not trivial at all. So it's, it's associated with chronic boredom. So boredom. proneness is associated with higher levels of poor mental health. So increased rates of depression and anxiety. It's associated with problems of addiction. So people who are highly bored and prone tend to be more at risk of alcohol and drug addiction. It's been associated with problem gambling. So people who express Problem Gambling certainly have, particularly people who are addicted to slot machines that will report that they're on there because they're bored. And yet, you know, being stuck on the same slot machine, which seems boring to me is not boring to them. I guess there's lots of bells and whistles on those machines. So it's associated with a lot of the ills of mental health. It's also associated with things that sort of from a societal perspective, we really wouldn't encourage. So there's a strong association between boredom and aggression. There were riots in the in the streets of London in 2011. And when people were interviewed, particularly young males were interviewed afterwards, they said, why did you join in? Why did you join in the looting, I said, it was the end of summer, and I was bored. And there are a number of not just anecdotal, but sort of experimental studies that will show that when we're bored, there is this tendency for some of us at least, to engage in aggressive and harmful behaviors. So it's not inconsequential. And we also know it's not inconsequential, from the point of view of two other domains that I think are worth pointing out. One is education, we know that if you're chronically bored, that you won't do as well in your education. And so it's incumbent upon us to try and make our education as least boring as we possibly can. And I think there are other occupations where boredom could be a real hazard. So if you think about any occupation that has a high requirement for vigilance, you really need to be paying close attention to your job, but it's also monotonous. So think air traffic control, or, you know, there was a disaster in Canada a number of years back in a place called LACMA Quantique, where train got off the rails and burst into flames and caused an enormous amount of damage. Potentially, the failure to to focus your attention in instances like that is the cause of those accidents. And if the job is monotonous, and unchanging, and not particularly meaningful, than I am sort of boring to the person doing that job, then we're at risk of those kinds of accidents happening more frequently. So yeah, it's I can't rank it. You're quite right. There's no rank that puts up there. It's not as bad as you know, some things, I'm sure. But it's also it is quite consequential.

Nick VinZant 45:09

Is there any kind of pattern to boredom in the sense that like, people are most bored at Tuesday at 3pm? Or is there any kind of pattern either throughout our days in the sense that like this time of year, this time of day, this day of the week, or throughout our lives, we're like, you're probably most bored between 10 and 20. Or actually, it's between these ages, is there any patterns to it,

James Danckert 45:37

there is a patent of the lifespan. That's this worth mentioning all of the other sort of domains that you talked about there, I'm not aware of any data that sort of really, you know, says it's mostly, you know, people talk about hump day during the week, you know, I don't think that people get more bored on Wednesdays than they do on any other day during the week. But, you know, maybe they do, I just don't know about data. But over a lifespan, boredom sort of tends to start rising in those early teenage years, we need a lot more data on this, but the data we do have says that it tends to rise, then it starts to sort of peak at age 17, or 18, and then starts to dip. And that's a really important point in our development, because around those late teenage years and the early 20s, that's the final stage of brain maturation. So you start to do what's called myelination, which is essentially this fatty coating that goes around your neurons, and AIDS transmission of information. And so that myelination of your frontal cortex that's happening between 17 and 22, you know, you're not really fully developed until those early 20s years. So around that time, when you're developing the frontal part of your brain that's really critical for self regulation, self control, gold pursued decision, decision making, and so on. Around that time, your boredom starts to drop, and it drops off into the, you know, 20s 30s, and 40s, and 50s. And, in part, some of that is going to be about responsibilities, you know, Who among us has the time to be bored when you're pursuing your career when you're raising your children when you're doing all these other sorts of things. And then it does show there are some instances now where we see a rise into the 60s and beyond. And one of the notions there about that rise at the later stage of our lifespan is that it's sort of strongly associated with loneliness. And so we talk about a social connectedness in that age range. And the people that have a good social network and good social connectedness tend not to be bored in their 60s 70s and beyond. But for those of us who find ourselves not as connected, then boredom can become a real problem.

Nick VinZant 47:34

What social media doing to us,

James Danckert 47:38

technology is ruining my brain. I love this question in some senses, because there's this notion that Socrates said that writing things down was going to ruin our brains, he was worried that if we wrote down all of our knowledge, that that would mean that our faculty for memory would just disappear. And the irony of that is, of course, that we wouldn't have even known that had played or not written down the things that Socrates said. So, you know, we have these sort of notions that every new technology, whether it's the pen and paper, or whether or not it's the internet, or whether or not social media, every new media is going to ruin our brain. So from the outset, I will say, No, it's not right, it's going to do amazing things for us. Right now you and I are on whatever this program is a zoom, you know, it's not zoom. But whatever that is, we're on this internet talking. You're, you're on one side of the continent, I'm on the other, and we can talk with each other about things we're interested in. That's flat out amazing, right? That's fantastic. My family's back in Australia. And in times gone past, I'd have to pen a letter, put it on a boat and wait six months before they are able to read it. Things are better with this new technology. And I think we we need to start from that place that the new technologies have done wonderful things for us. But it is also true to say that for some people, for a handful of people in evidence at the moment is about 4%, our attachment to our phones into social media can become problematic. So we actually talk about the phrase used is problematic smartphone use, and it has characteristics that are very much like addiction. So you continually ramp up your use of the phone or you continually ramp up how often you turn to social media. You feel anxious when you're not with your phone, or you're not on social media, those two characteristics very much the characteristics that you see in addictions to substances. And that work from John Alhaj. And colleagues and from people there's a couple of labs in China that are doing this work shows that boredom is a real driver of this that when we're bored, we turn to our phone because it's an easy occupation thing, right? It occupies your mind very quickly and very easily. It has the bells and whistles like a slot machine. And like advertising, social media has figured out the ways to capture our attention. And so we turn to it and it sort of like dissipates the boredom immediately. But it doesn't do a very good job long term, because we go down the rabbit hole of Twitter and we find that we've spent half an hour or god forbid longer, and then you get off and you think, Well, what did I just do for the last hour? Right? It's not particularly meaningful. And it's not particularly fostering the goals that we want to pursue, right. So I want to say fairly clearly, there's nothing wrong with tech, there's nothing wrong with not nothing wrong. It's we can use social media in positive ways. And we need to be vigilant individually and as a society as to the ways in which we might be misusing or abusing social media and technology more likely, more broadly. But in general, it allows us to do wonderful things.

Nick VinZant 50:35

Does boredom have anything to do with attention span?

James Danckert 50:40

Well, there's a claim that people want to make that our attention span over the past couple of decades has been gradually decreasing. And I don't know what sort of metrics people use to measure that, you know, I guess in the 50s, they used to do advertisements for products that went 50 minutes long, you know, watching an advertisement for a vacuum cleaner on TV and 1950s. That was like a program length. And now, you know, the world's shortest ad is less than a second or something like that. And that that sort of suggests that, yeah, we don't have the attention span that we used to. Again, I think that that's probably an overblown claim that, indeed, you know, we might, you know, in even in things like, the films that we watch, you know, I went back and watched one of my favorite films a while back The Deer Hunter. And, you know, that's a fairly powerful and dramatic movie, but the first half of it is about a Polish wedding. I mean, it's quite long, and it's quite slow. It's quite drawn out. It's quite beautiful, and quite, quite dramatic, but it wasn't. It's not, it's not John Wick, you know, it's not, it's not as fast and as, as, you know, changing from moment to moment as any of those kinds of movies, right. So there's, there's possibly a sense in which our tastes, our predilections for things show, that we prefer to have things move quickly. But I don't know that that really translates into our attention span is poor. When it comes to boredom, boredom is absolutely associated with poor focusing of attention and poor sustained attention. We know people who suffer from ADHD also have high levels of boredom. And so there's there's absolutely a very strong association between struggles with attention, and boredom. But I don't think that that means that as a society, writ large that we have a worse attention span than we used to.

Nick VinZant 52:29

That's pretty much all the questions I got man, is there anything you think that we missed or anything that like, oh, we should be talking about this or anything like that.

James Danckert 52:36

One thing I would say is that we know too, that boredom, proneness is associated with self esteem as well. So people who are high in boredom proneness, don't have very hot, they have lower self esteem. And one of the things about that we're in the process of investigating that further. There's a related concept of self efficacy, it's not quite the same as self esteem, self esteem is about I feel good about who I am. self efficacy is I believe, I can do this, right. I know, I've got the skills I'm capable. And I think that people who are boredom prone will have low self efficacy as well, that they won't feel like they're necessarily capable, to reach the goals that they might set for themselves. And I think if that happens early in life, there's going to be long term consequences. So a lack of a sense of self efficacy as a young person, you know, will carry through into your, into your life in negative ways. And so, you know, we always come up with the problem that these are correlations is individual difference traits, it's very hard to talk about cause. So you know, will, will it be the failure of self efficacy or elevated boredom that causes the problems later on? It's gonna be very, very hard to determine that without longitudinal studies. But But yeah, I do think early on, if you cope better with boredom, when you're a very young person, and into your teenage years, that will probably be associated with much more positive outcomes later.

Nick VinZant 53:59

So I mean, if people want to learn more about this, like, how can they what should they do? I know you've got a book out.

James Danckert 54:06

Yeah. So John Eastwood and I wrote a book that came out in 2020, in the middle of the start of the pandemic, I guess, and and that was out of my skull to psychology of boredom. So you can grab that and read that. We also do a blog on Psychology Today, that blog is called the engaged mind. And so we have we write about various aspects related to boredom.

Cigar Blender Nicholas Melillo

What goes in to making a great cigar? Follow Cigar Blender and Foundation Cigar founder Nicholas Melillo’s journey from the fields of Nicaragua to award-winning, handmade cigars. We talk how cigars are made, the secret to cigar blending and the future of the cigar industry. Then we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 School Supplies.

Nicholas Melillo: 02:09ish

Pointless: 52:43ish

Top 5 School Supplies: 01:17:20ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://www.instagram.com/nickragua (Nicholas Melillo Instagram)

https://twitter.com/nickragua (Nicholas Melillo Twitter)

http://www.foundationcigars.com/ (Foundation Cigars’ Website)

www.instagram.com/foundationcigars/ (Foundation Cigars’ Instagram)

www.facebook.com/Foundationcigars/ (Foundation Cigars’ Facebook)

twitter.com/FoundationCigar (Foundation Cigars’ Twitter)

Nicholas Melillo Interview: Cigar Blender and Foundation Cigars Founder

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode cigars, and school supplies,

Nicholas Melillo 0:20

it is a difficult process, what I do is totally handmade. So, if you make any mistakes, so you take different seed varieties, you take different land, you take different positioning of where the tobacco is located, that completely changes the flavor of the tobacco. So from there, you can get 1000s of different potential blend combinations, billionaires, blue collared workers, musicians, artists, all of these different types of people come to this one place that normally I don't think would ever spend time together.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It helps out the show. And we just like hearing from people, Greg, I got your voicemail. I completely agree. That's something we're going to be talking about in upcoming episodes. And a special thanks to realness, for your review on Apple podcasts. It's really stuff like that, that keeps us going. So I have always been fascinated by how things are made. And how little changes in that process can completely change something. Our first guest has worked in the cigar industry for more than 20 years here in the United States in Central America, and has traveled all over the world. He specializes in blending together handmade cigars. This is cigar blender and founder of foundation cigars. Nicholas Malolo. So is it hard to make a cigar or is it hard to make a cigar? Well,

Nicholas Melillo 2:13

I would say both. It seems easy when you when you see the process, but it's very entailed. And there's a lot of nuance to it. And it is a difficult process. There's a lot of hands, it's totally what I do is totally handmade. So if you make any mistakes, they can cause many problems way down the line

Nick VinZant 2:39

is that when you look at like the quality of cigar, is it the ingredients going into it? Is it the way it's made?

Nicholas Melillo 2:47

It starts with really good black tobacco is what we call cigar tobacco. So we call cigar tobacco, black Dark Air Cured tobacco, which is very different from say what's used in cigarette, which is what we call flue cured or bright Burley's different types of tobacco. Those tobaccos are cured when they come out of the fields say within a week's time, where cigar tobacco is naturally fermented over years. So basically, what we're doing is controlled composting almost. So we take tobacco in hands in 7000 pound piles, and just the combination of moisture from the leaf and pressure from the weight of the pile triggers the fermentation process. So quality tobacco, there, there's a lot to that and that's the beginning of being able to have time and the resources to age tobacco properly. In and having really, you know, great a top tobacco that's, that's where it all starts with having a really good ultra premium cigar, this and then the next is the construction and the blend and how it's put together.

Nick VinZant 4:08

So cigar smoke is really different than you know, cigarette smoke. Is it different than pipe smoke like is it completely its own

Nicholas Melillo 4:17

thing? It is 100% its own thing so complete. You can't use cigarette grade tobaccos for cigar handmade cigars nor can you use pipe tobaccos for cigars so they're completely different seed varieties. They're grown in different regions completely different than handmade cigars. Now machine made cigars is a whole different thing. But I deal with again strictly handmade,

Nick VinZant 4:43

how long will it take you then to make one right from not not counting when the crop the crop is planted? Right but from like right after we start the process like how long is it going to take?

Nicholas Melillo 4:55

So after the tobacco comes from the fields It goes into fermentation, let's say that can range depending anywhere from one to three years, sometimes four years. And then it could age and Bails for another year. And then it's passed to the production floor. And then after the cigar is rolled, they usually cure I'm sorry, Agent human doors, down in where I'm at in Nicaragua for another 90 days before they're shipped. So you're talking three years, I would say on an average. And then how long will it take you to like and roll. So hand rolling, usually, you know, a day, we work in pairs in Nicaragua. So every country has a maybe a little different style, that they they used to roll cigars, they work in pairs, so someone punches where we call the filler leaves the inside of the cigar, and then a roller puts on the wrapper leaf. And usually a pair can make anywhere from 200 to 400 cigars a day.

Nick VinZant 6:05

Now does does the other stuff around the cigar matter? Or is it basically like look at tobacco is X percent of it. And the role itself is like, it just makes it look cool.

Nicholas Melillo 6:15

Tobacco, again, is the pillar, if you don't roll them properly, you're going to have a terrible user experience. So if the if the cigar doesn't draw properly, if it's too loose, it's going to burn too hot, it's going to affect the blend. Construction is crucial and having a good user experience. So over the years, I've seen companies go out of business because they've had major quality control problems that you can't go back to, you know, people are spending, you know, anywhere from five to 20 $30 a cigar people work hard. The last thing you want is when you're relaxing is to light up a cigar that doesn't draw that doesn't burn that doesn't taste properly. So the construction and quality control of actually rolling them. That's what I managed for 12 years. I started in Nicaragua in 2003, with one of the smallest cigar factories in in Nicaragua and I left in 2014. We were the largest handmade cigar factory in Nicaragua. So I was overseeing 105,000 Handmade cigars a day. And my main, my main role was quality control. Excuse me. Quality control was a crucial part of my everyday job.

Nick VinZant 7:35

How did you get started in like, what was the initial kind of draw for you?

Nicholas Melillo 7:39

So Connecticut people don't I'm from Connecticut. People don't realize that Connecticut grows some of the best cigar tobacco in the world. North of Hartford, Connecticut. There is a valley called the can Yeah, it's actually the Connecticut so Connecticut's relationship with Cuba pre 1959. Cuban Connecticut had a very old relationship in as you know, maybe many places in the United States had cigar factories. Here in Connecticut, there was a ton of cigar factories in the early 1900s. All of the cigars produced here use Cuban filler. So the inside of the cigar, and the outside was Connecticut wrapper. We were really known for the outside leaf, which is a whole different growing process. But Connecticut actually means in in Mohawk, Mohegan, I'm sorry, along the Great tidal river. So the Connecticut River is 406 miles long. It passes through four states. It starts on the border of New Hampshire, and Canada. It used to be a gigantic finger lake at the end of the last ice age. It was called Lake Hitchcock. It was gigantic. Eventually that lake eroded and broke and started funneling into the Long Island Sound. But it left 30,000 acres north of Harford is very sandy loam soil hill that was perfect for growing black, dark AIRCARE tobacco for cigars. So this goes back to the late 1600s. And before that, of course, the indigenous communities have used tobacco for you know, we think 5000 5000 years. So So Canet being from Connecticut, I grew up all my family smoked Connecticut cigars, my great grandfather's smoked cigars out of factories in New Haven, Connecticut. My grandfather's so when I was 18, I was the cigar guy. I just fell in love with cigars after sharing one with my grandfather. It was an amazing experience to be able to sit down you know, when you're 18 and have a cigar with your grandfather was sort of a coming of, of age, and like read We'd a high school and I used to go into the cigar shop called Calabash shop. And there was lines out the humidor, there was two women that ran that owned the shop. And this one particular day, I get all the way up to the cash register after waiting in line. And I said, Listen, I'd love to work for you guys. I knew every cigar in that humidor, I know the whole process. I would love to work for you guys. And I didn't hear from him for two months. And a week before I started university, they called me and that's how I got my start in the industry. So I started running the cigar shop while I was studying international business at that university.

Nick VinZant 10:40

They not like But starting your own company that right that was that. Like the always the goal, or was that just the opportunity was there and

Nicholas Melillo 10:49

I jumped out at so I you know, I run this, this cigar shop for all my universe for years. And I met this crazy guy from New York who starred in a cigar factory in Nicaragua. And we met in 98 and kept in touch over about a five year period. I left school and I I always just wanted to travel. So i i circumnavigated the globe, I went to Italy, I lived in Rome and worked with the Vatican, and then bought and around the world ticket and went through India, Southeast Asia. So this gentleman that I had met was on my email list. So I'm traveling all around the world, going to Nicaragua in the early 2000s wasn't really a thing. So I think he as he's getting my emails emerging from, you know, Southeast Asia, he said, Oh, I, you know, Nick will probably come live in Nicaragua. So he, he offered me a job to go work in, in Nicaragua in March of 2003. So I was traveling around the world for a year, I got back to the States for a month, and then moved down to Nicaragua. And, and had been down there the majority of my time over the past 1818 years. So I've helped this company. And then at one point, I said, you know, if, if I'm working this hard, I should probably start my own company. And it was tough to make that

Nick VinZant 12:23

decision. Is it a profitable business? I mean, obviously, it's a profitable business, right. But we'll be talking like, once you get going, this is easy money, or you got to scrape for everything that you got.

Nicholas Melillo 12:34

It's it's definitely not easy, man, we have a very interesting perception, because we're selling leisure and relaxation. So there's this outside perception that oh, man, that would be so cool to work with cigars. And that must be the greatest job ever, behind the sea scenes, it is a very difficult business and the money is good, but it takes a lot of money to get started. And a lot of you know, just think about three years of fermentation, you're sitting on money for three years before, and that distinguishes what makes a really ultra premium cigar. And not you can ferment tobacco much faster. And that's what's happening is a lot of people are, they don't have the money to sit on tobacco for three years. You know, but they can cure it really fast. Get it out in the product. But there's a tremendous difference in flavor. It's, it's almost like my grandmother's pasta sauce. I'm Italian, my family is Italian, it's the difference between pop and open a can of sauce, thrown it on the stove, cooking it and my grandmother, slow he eight hours a day. fresh ingredients and preserving once you start turning that heat up, you start losing a lot of the good goodness, the flavor to the elements. And once you do it fast, so it's slow and steady, which really preserves the natural oils and flavor. And it's the same with cigar tobacco.

Nick VinZant 14:09

This may be stereotyping a little bit right. But working in Nicaragua and Honduras in the early 2000s. I would imagine that came with some extra stuff besides just normal business

Nicholas Melillo 14:19

operations. Yeah, Chow. At first, it's really exciting. And you don't see the challenge. I was 24 and you're in a new place. You're you're in a new culture as time goes on. Things get a little bit more more challenging and culture and I'm in the north of Nicaragua. So I live in a place called esta Li, which is about two hours north of the capital. And it's pretty much a farming city town. And if you're a city person, it's a very difficult place to be after a while. But if it wasn't for the Nicaraguan People, I probably wouldn't be there till today. I mean, people welcomed me in and have treated me like a king and family. And they're very appreciative. You know, the north of Nicaragua, so many people are employed by the cigar industry, so many families from the cigar industry. And it makes a huge difference, because there's not many other options when it comes to jobs.

Nick VinZant 15:28

Did you ever have to kind of go around any criminal elements or am I being overly dramatic

Nicholas Melillo 15:34

here? Yeah, you're being a little overly dramatic. In movies, right. And most people do, you know, and I had that perception moving down there. Keeble, it's one of the safest countries in Central America. So I feel safer in Nicaragua than I do and in cities here in Connecticut,

Nick VinZant 15:58

what is it about that place? Like why is that special?

Nicholas Melillo 16:01

So you know, Castro confiscates most of the cigar factories and 5960. Most of the tobacco fields, so many Cuban families flee in the cigar world at which people don't realize many of the master blenders and master tobacconist, fully Cuba, looking for similar climates as certain growing regions in Cuba, Pinar del Rio, there's an area well, avato these are two very famous growing regions. So Nicaragua, is has the most active volcanoes in Central America. Okay, the Ring of Fire, Nicaragua actually means in narwhal, the local language, the land of lakes and volcanoes. So there's two very large lakes and the volcanic soil is just so rich. And I mean, you can just drop seeds, and things are growing. So in the early 60s, mid 60s, Cubans started bringing Cuban seed to Nicaragua. And they started getting incredible results, destroying the complexity of the leaf. If you see now with Cigar Aficionado, the top 25 cigars 16 of the top 25 were from Nicaragua this past year, and most people don't realize is again that many of the Cuban masters left Cuba, if you're a cigar smoker, you know, a lot of times Cubans are just known because you can't get

Nick VinZant 17:36

them. So like, okay, when I don't know anything about cigars, and I was born without a sense of smell. So my knowledge is never going to be very good. But like, what makes in your opinion, like what makes a good cigar? What should I be looking for?

Nicholas Melillo 17:55

So everybody has a different palette. This is the first thing is is what's the best cigar in the world, the one you enjoy the most. So we're really as cigar shops and tobacconist trying to find the right land for the right palette. So usually, someone that's newer to cigar smoking tobacco is a powerful plant, a very sacred, powerful plant. So you wouldn't give someone a blend that is very strong, or, you know, something that would be even, you know, rated high and Cigar Aficionado. If that's a stronger blend, usually a newer smoker is not going to enjoy something that's that's really strong. So you're looking for something milder. You know, really just looking for something that's not cheating the palate, that's not bitter. That's not, you know, overly strong. Balance is the key. Right? I blend cigars. That's the trick in creating a good cigar is is balance. And that takes just years of, of knowledge and know how and learning. You know how tobaccos work together. But you get you want to find the right cigar for the right, the right palette. So a lot of times people are just not educated or they don't get the right advice from maybe a cigar shop and they're given or they might get a cigar at a wedding. Or they might get one as a gift and then they leave it in their house. It's not humidified, they smoke it a month later it's dry. It's you know, it's it's disgusting. And then they smoke it and think that's what a cigar is. And that kind of deters a lot of people from smoking, smoking cigars, so it's all about finding the right cigar for the right consumer. I hope I answered.

Nick VinZant 19:55

Right like it can be kind of all like you have to find what's right for you like I he drink enough whiskey that like now I know like, Okay, I don't like that. I do like this. There you go. But at the beginning it was just kind of like, well, it's all over the place.

Nicholas Melillo 20:11

Right? Yeah, yeah, it's the same thing. Same thing with wine. Our palates are, are very interesting. It really is the nose, which is picking up a lot of the flavor. You know, our palate has four to 6000 flavor receptors on it. And we're really registering the five major flavors, or is it sweet, salty, bitter? Savory, like acid. Yeah, acidic. I think you're right. Yeah. That sour. That's it. That's it. That's only five. You know, real flavors. Really, your old factory has millions of receptors. So where are you getting the vanillas, the chocolates that that's actually coming from your olfactory. And that's why people getting COVID You know, a lot of times they're losing their sense of smell, you're really losing your sense of taste. Because if you lose your sense of smell, you're basically losing more than 50% of your taste. So that's really when you get into things and you see this with coffee or wine. really developing your your old factory is crucial in really learning tobacco to that kind of next stage. So we don't inhale cigars. But we do something called retro Hayling, which is basically where you're taking smoke and you're exhaling through your nose. And that's where you're kind of your, your, that's when you really start getting into the next kind of level of flavor. Understanding cigars.

Nick VinZant 21:49

Oh, I see. So you're like, but you're not your ex.

Nicholas Melillo 21:54

Yeah, it's just basically being funneled through the bag. It's never going into your lungs. Cigars are not intended to be inhaled into your lungs at all.

Nick VinZant 22:04

To most people smoke cigars the right way.

Nicholas Melillo 22:07

There's a lot of MIS education, I think about cigars. And we're really on a mission over the next five years is to really train people and consumers because it does. It does differentiate have, you know, people staying in our industry, we're such a small industry neck, you know, not many people smoke handmade cigars. It's a very small fraction of the population. And I think a lot of times it is because of education, that people don't stay in it because they they do have maybe a negative experience and they're not being shown properly. They're not being led, first of all to the right blend, you know, and then they're not really knowledgeable of how to cut it and light it properly, which all affects the blend in the taste of the cigar.

Nick VinZant 22:59

So when you blend a cigar, right, like are most cigars blended or is it basically just one crop of tobacco, like how do you blend it?

Nicholas Melillo 23:09

So I used generally for my blends for foundation cigars, I'm using filler. So the inside leaves are generally from Nicaragua. Nicaragua just has such rich, flavorful, tobacco. This is why it's it's becoming more and more well known within the handmade cigar, cigar world. So you take different seed varieties, you take different land, you take different positioning of where the tobacco is located, that completely changes the flavor of the tobacco. So from there, you can get 1000s of different potential blend combinations. Then you take the leaf that goes around the filler, which is underneath the wrapper is called the binder that's holding the filler together. That's usually from different countries. Connecticut, Ecuador, grows cigar tobacco, Honduras, the Dominican Republic, Sumatra, is known for growing cigar tobacco, Brazil, there's an area called Bahia in Brazil, which is one of the oldest tobacco growing regions. So from all these different options, you can create blends and all these tobaccos kind of work differently together. And it's it's really about understanding the different flavor profiles and being able to put those together properly. You know, it's I think the difference of having, I'm not I'm not the greatest cook, but if you give, you know certain great ingredients to make and a real chef, you're going to have two different you know, very drastically different results. So

Nick VinZant 25:03

now you did I think the question that I would have, you know, is like so when you when you go through a blend, like how many will you try out before like, Okay, this is the right one? Like, how long will it take you to get to that final product for that variety.

Nicholas Melillo 25:18

For me like now with just the experience that I've had, I've been able to develop my own techniques that I find work for what I'm looking to do. So generally, I'm developing, maybe seven to 10 at the most different blends. And then from those seven blends, I'm able to maybe make a little tweaks here and there, and then get what I'm looking for. So like the cigar I'm smoking right now, it's called all Mac, it's our homage to actually Mexican San Andreas tobacco, which is San Andreas is one of the oldest growing regions in the world. Also, it actually predates the Cuban scene. But this took me seven blends. So seven blends, and I had the range where I was at made a little tweak. What's happening before that, though, is where we call on smoking, what we call tabacky are those where I'm reviewing bales of tobacco. And I'm inspecting bales and rolling little cigars, and just smoking the bales to check for flavor. So I'll smoke individual components first. And then I'll end up bringing all those components together. If that makes sense. Yeah, it's

Nick VinZant 26:39

kind of like, if there was a line of I use whiskey or scotch or whatever. It's kind of like, take a little sip and like, okay, that one's this place. And maybe we'll go with that one. Can you? Can you pretty much eyeball it. Like, can you look at tobacco in its refined form or whatever? It'd be like, sweet salad. Can you look at it?

Nicholas Melillo 26:59

It depends on if I know who it's coming from. And I know who's growing it. The main test for me is the aroma. So the aroma and inspection of the aroma. Looking at it definitely you you're getting signs, but you need kind of the three major that the touch, the taste, and the visual is going to give you everything you need. So I would never really just go based on looks, although if it tobacco is green, you're going to know it's not cured properly. If it's too dark, sometimes it can get really black. That means it's been overly fermented. So it's almost like you burn it. So you can tell from that I can tell a lot from the vein structure. You're also when you're inspecting leaf for the outside of the cigar, it has to be visually perfect. So wrapper leaf on the outside leaf is much thinner, silkier. And it needs to be perfect color can't be any blemishes. It's the most expensive leaf in the blend, because it has to be almost perfect. And you're dealing with natural. Yeah, you're dealing with crops, you're dealing with, you know, a natural product, it's not being put together in a lab. And it's not a widget which I tell my customers a lot of times, you know, it's it's a very detailed process,

Nick VinZant 28:24

how different is it going to be like, I know these are hard to kind of quantify right? And I my brain thinks in math terms, which isn't really the best way. But like how different okay, you get this exact crop, same region, same guy grow in it, same people working at same, like how different can you expect things to be from year to

Nicholas Melillo 28:43

year? They can be very different man. I mean, we're growing right now in the Connecticut River Valley. Right. So north of here about where I'm where I'm at 40 minutes is, is harvest time, so it'll be up there Friday. Hard luckily this year, we've had a great year. With weather last year was the rainiest Connecticut and 50 years 20% of the crop made it through. Oh, so 20% and most farmers had to plow under the fields because they get insurance money. Otherwise there would be no industry up there. This year the crop is looking great. But you can see a beautiful crop in the fields. It goes then to the curing barns where it needs to go for another 7075 days. If you don't know what you're doing in the curing barn, or you're not paying attention that beautiful crop in the field field can go to crap overnight if you're not looking at it properly it's same thing then when it goes to yours and fermentation You know guys would see me in front of fermentation piles 7000 pound piles and oh man, that's the coolest job. It's a great there's nothing more stressful than having tobacco and fermentation because as it can be destroyed literally overnight if you're not paying attention, and it can then damage the flavor. And it can completely affect the blends that you're trying to come out with. So there's a lot that goes into it, you got to be on it all the time. Otherwise it can, it can go bad pretty quick. And then you're, you're out not only money and investment, but then the time you can't, you can't get back. So you can be carrying tobacco for two years. You have all that time and money. If it goes bad, and you don't have a backup, then you don't have production.

Nick VinZant 30:39

Mother Nature doesn't give you a second chance, does it?

Nicholas Melillo 30:42

It doesn't. It doesn't.

Nick VinZant 30:44

Brutal in its honesty. Right?

Nicholas Melillo 30:47

It really is. And that's why our industry, it does seem really simple from the outside. But when you're when you're in it, it's what seems simple is very detail oriented and complex.

Nick VinZant 31:03

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I would love it. Best place to smoke a cigar, front porch, bar, or other.

Nicholas Melillo 31:18

If I had to choose, I would say front porch. Yeah, you know, just for me, again, it depends on what kind of mood you're in. But front porch in a book, or some good company, that that's the place you know, I grew up, my father built a little little house, we called it it was one of these prefab sheds, ya know. So he ended up putting a little pellet stove in there, rug and a table. And that's where, you know, my grandfather, my brother, and I would would have a cigar. And that was happening. So I tend to lean on the more peaceful settings and environments. Although a cigar bar could be cool on a Friday night.

Nick VinZant 32:03

What's really better smoking the cigar or holding the cigar?

Nicholas Melillo 32:12

Smoking the cigar.

Nick VinZant 32:14

There's some Okay, I will admit to this. And I think one of our listeners call me out on this. I don't smoke cigars. But if I've had some edibles, which I really enjoy edibles, I like the feeling of holding a cigar. There's something about it that makes me feel kind of cool. Like what do you think it is about it?

Nicholas Melillo 32:35

That's a good question, man. I never really thought it at length. But it's, it's like almost something that you take your companion almost, you know, you don't feel whereas if you're just alone, and you got nothing, you're kinda like, you know, you got nothing. But a cigar is like, oh, man, this is cool. It's got a cool kind of perception. And I would say it's like your companion.

Nick VinZant 33:01

There's something just kind of cool about it. This this. This leads into another question, though. And maybe this is that this person is not trying to be offensive. I think they're actually asking this question. How can I make sure that I don't look? They use the word douchey holding a cigar, because I noticed looking at people smoking cigars, like some people can look kind of like oh, like they're sweaty all the time. That kind of douchey look, and some people can look like a person looks sweet. How do you how do you rate me write that? You look like a Cuban General. Okay, like that's an that's meant as a compliment, right? Like, you look like somebody who is naturally having a good time smoking a cigar, not like kind of the frat boy party. Cheap

Nicholas Melillo 33:52

cigars. And I think that's the difference is just your comfortability with it. And your confidence in it. You know, if you don't feel comfortable with it, or you're, you know, that comes across very easily.

Nick VinZant 34:09

Yeah, it's kind of like, are you smoking it because you enjoy it? Or are you smoking to look cool and the ones smoking? Cool? Yeah. douchey right. They lose it. You can't lose it. You gotta back it together.

Nicholas Melillo 34:23

No, I'm gonna say that's tough. Like, you can't you can't fake that. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 34:27

it's got to be genuine. If it's genuine, you can pull it off. Now. Okay, so where is the cigar business hours? Is it up? Down? Same as it ever was.

Nicholas Melillo 34:37

Let me tell you, man, since COVID It it it we've been in a mini boom. So I think people being home, allowed them more time to actually learn about cigars and maybe understand them more. And also because now people are working from home. So you We're not in an office all day. So we're you would have had maybe one cigar at the end of the day, or maybe on the weekend. Now people, especially in the summertime, you have your computer, you're in your back, backyard, you're on your porch, you're able to have a cigar while you're working. So it's been really amazing to see the industry strive. I mean, we're not growing in leaps and bounds, you know, that maybe we're up at I think about 3%. This quarter and overall imports of of handmade cigars into the United States.

Nick VinZant 35:34

Is there. Right, like, okay, there's the health concern question, right, that either wherever it is, in terms of whatever it is, right, but is there still? Is there a stigma around cigars? Do you feel like you guys are always kind of fighting that

Nicholas Melillo 35:51

we've been through some really serious battles with the FDA over the past two years, and we luckily, have been able to been carved out and not regulated like cigarettes and machine made cigars. So they've been coming at us, I've been fighting this via our trade organization, cigar rights of America, which I encourage any cigar smokers to join. And we've been really working hard and educating Washington that, first of all, kids don't smoke our products. This is not something where, you know, kids have 10 $20 of disposable income to smoke cigars. What has been increasing is machine made cigars that are being purchased in C stores, convenience stores, and gas stations, because of the legalization of cannabis, that market has exploded, you know, so, and those are generally 99 cent. They're generally homogenized what we call homogenized tobacco, which was actually developed in Connecticut 1955. It's basically tobacco dust, and paper that's made on these huge machines, and rolled out. And those are generally sold in gas stations and convenience stores. To give you an idea of the difference, you know, handmade cigars between Nicaragua, Honduras, and the Dominican, you're probably looking about 320 million units that are imported into the United States, which seems like a lot, but the machine made mark it is at about 15 billion units. So 15 billion, oh, say 300 300 million, so and then that's just machine made cigars, that doesn't include all the other tobacco products, cigarettes, you know, smokeless tobacco, so we are less than a fraction of a percent. When you look at the overall pie of tobacco products. So, you know, we've always argued that we're not selling to, to kids, this is not, you have to be ID D need to go into a cigar shop. And you're not, you know, there are health effects with everything. You know, drinking with, of course, smoking, but, you know, they're compared to something that's being inhaled into your lungs. It's complete, the FDA actually released studies that two to three cigars a week had zero or little health impacts. And, you know, it's, again, it all depends. My grandfather just passed away a couple of years ago, and he was 94. He smoked cigars since World War Two, you know. You know, it's not the greatest argument, but we know a lot of people that have smoked cigars. A lot of art. People argue that it's really a stress really was cigar smoking. Larry David and Seinfeld had a great piece on cars, cars and comedians getting coffee. Yeah. You know, I said, What is it about a cigar that and Larry David said, a cigar is is relaxing. It's this. You have time. A cigarette is? Your Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's a stress. It's a it's a habit. It's something so when you're smoking a cigar, it's it is time it's relaxation, which I think definitely has, you know, good, good benefits.

Nick VinZant 39:29

Since since you brought up a celebrity we'll go into this one celebrity who knows their stuff?

Nicholas Melillo 39:36

That's a great question. I mean, as far as cigars, some of your Michael Jordan's a big cigar smoker, although he's, I think a big Cuban fan. I think he's just starting now to, to a lot of people are starting to discover the world of Nicaraguan cigars. I would say he knows what he's doing. I think Larry David actually knows his cigars pretty well. i A friend of mine, D nice. He was from one of the first hip hop bands. He knows stuff really well, he's a, he's a famous DJ, there's a lot a lot of guys behind the scenes that really, really know their stuff. So guys that really get into it. Joe Rogan right now is really getting into it his I think he's come a long way over the past, like three years of what he's kind of learning and knowing about cigars.

Nick VinZant 40:35

Is that kind of your experience with people right? When they get once they get turned on to them? Like they go? It seems like something that people get into?

Nicholas Melillo 40:44

Yeah, it's because there's a lot to it. And I think once people have a picture of, of the world, it becomes very, the cigar world, it becomes very interesting. And the process, there's not many processes, you know, this process of handmade cigars is this almost the same that it's been for the past, you know, 200 years. So there's not many industries, I think that still exists that, you know, existed 200 years ago. And really, when you start getting into it, it's it is an amazing world to learn about the process. And then just to who you meet, from the cigar world, you know, working in a cigar store, you meet people that you wouldn't normally meet, or would converge in the same place. And the vehicle is cigars. So I would I would meet and still you'd meet billionaires, blue collared workers, musicians, artists, all of these different types of people come to this one place that normally I don't think would ever spend time together.

Nick VinZant 41:49

Like, is there a price point? That is the sweet spot? That you would say like, Oh, you don't have to spend this much. But you need to spend this much like, is there a price point where somebody either with your business or with others, they'd be like, That's it, you're gonna do pretty well right there.

Nicholas Melillo 42:05

So I would answer that in two part, I would say between nine and $15, you can get really amazing cigars, amazing cigars, top rated, amazing cigars. You could also get a really good cigar between five we make a cigar called Charter Oak, which is my homage to Connecticut, and Connecticut cigar World Charter Oak is the image of actually the symbol of Hartford, Connecticut. And we received the number one best value cigar from Cigar Aficionado. And so you can get a great cigar between five you're not going to get the depth and complexity that you're going to get in the range between nine to 15. But what you're getting is really good for the price point. So it would be more of a cigar that you would you know maybe if you're cutting the lawn, or you're kind of doing things and you don't have the time to really sit down and focus on something that would kind of be more than a cigar. You know for you but between nine and $15 man you're, you know, you're getting an amazing, you know, some of the best tobaccos in the world. I think a lot of the other price points a lot of times it's you know it is marketing. I'm coming out this November with the most expensive cigar that I've ever come out with but it's for a special reason. We're doing the 100th year anniversary of King Tut's discovery. This is a replica of a box that was discovered within King Tut's tomb. So I work yeah, I work with a company a place called high clear that Soloman isn't the school. We actually have the Yale Egyptologists work on all of the hieroglyphs, so they're legit. So I work with Highclere Castle in England, Highclere Castle is owned by Lord Carnarvon, whose great grandfather discovered King Tut's tomb with Howard Carter. He funded Howard Carter and was an amateur archaeologist. So I make a cigar it's the only cigar I make for someone else called Highclere Castle. And they tapped me to make 100 year anniversary of King Tut's cigar in November because his great grandfather smoked cigars, and with smoking cigars when the tomb was discovered. So this is going to be one of my most pricey projects, but there's a lot that goes into it.

Nick VinZant 44:41

How much? How much yourself?

Nicholas Melillo 44:43

30 30,000? Yeah, yeah, no, this is I mean, again, you know, for everyday smokers. You don't have to be spending a crazy amount of money.

Nick VinZant 44:59

That is is one of the questions right and I'm sure you knew we're gonna get this one it's like most expensive cigar you've ever smoked. And was it worth it?

Nicholas Melillo 45:07

The most most expensive one, what I would say was probably a Cuban from 1945. It was a hard to guess that a friend gave me that would probably be the most expensive cigar. It's really about the experience of having something that old what, as far as you know, the blend, a lot of times these older cigars is this misconception, conception that always older is better. And when it comes to aging cigars, and there's, it's not always the case. And a lot of times is that tobacco is it's a it's an alive living plant. With that much time it loses a lot of cellular structure. And a lot of its its flavor, or at least time. So it was good. It was very mild. But I don't know if I would, you know actively if I kind of access purchase, you know, cigars and and smoke those cigars if I was in the in the position to do so even if I had you know, money to spend on cigars are that expensive? How much

Nick VinZant 46:14

would that have been that? That's a good question. It's

Nicholas Melillo 46:18

probably probably in the $500 range from what three to $500 for one cigar.

Nick VinZant 46:25

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, we interviewed a guy who was a whiskey critic. And then I'll combining that interview in my mind with a documentary I watched about whisky and all those guys who like the master blenders, they're like, we like we drink stuff that's six years old. The older stuffs really not that. Not that great. Same.

Nicholas Melillo 46:43

You'll find that with cigar. You know? I've worked with mainly Cubans and it's the same way. You know, a lot of these tobacco guy they they chew on their cigars, you know, but a lot of that is Mystique a lot of it is is the rarity the supply and demand that's what really drives that's what the price is there's only X amount of boxes you know, it's the same with with the cigar I'm doing the King Tut cigar. There's only gonna be 700 boxes. You know, it's it's supply and demand a lot of times

Nick VinZant 47:17

this one this one might require some thought man, movie or TV show in which the person looked coolest holding a cigar like, oh, that

Nicholas Melillo 47:31

that was a cold Christmas. Yeah. Oh, you know what I would say? I would say Gene Hackman, Chris Chris Chrisman Chrisman tied with Denzel Washington. Is it Christmas?

Nick VinZant 47:45

It's either. I think it's crazy. Oh, crap. Once you try to say it you I can't say it crimson.

Nicholas Melillo 47:51

I know. Crimson. What does that even mean? I'll cheer

Nick VinZant 47:55

reddish. I guess I always thought it was a movie about That's Ryan. But again, kill crimson.

Nicholas Melillo 48:01

Have you seen it? No. It's a great movie. Oh, it's in a phenomenal movie. I just Crimson Tide. Gene Hackman,

Nick VinZant 48:09

I know what movie you're talking about. It's the it's submarines and shit. Correct. The reason that I haven't watched it is because there was a movie called Prince of Tides, which was a romantic comedy that I was like, I'm not watching anything about Thai see, right. Oh, yeah,

Nicholas Melillo 48:26

conceivable. There's a great scene at the beginning of the movie before the submerge. And it's Gene Hackman, Denzel Washington. As their I don't know what you call the lookout point. And they're just getting ready to submerge. And he's smoking a cigar and gives Denzel one. And there's this moment of silence. And he said, You didn't mess it up. You let the silence go. Gene Hackman, the dead zone most people would want to occupy the space and would chitchat and you just enjoyed the moment. And they're smoking. You smoking a cigar and he looks badass because he's comfortable. You can tell he's, he's a cigar smoker. And he's cool.

Nick VinZant 49:12

The only one I was thinking of when they mentioned it was in I can't remember if it's predator or Commando, but I think it's predator Arnold Schwarzenegger is like, like, you can see he's got it all the time. Like he had it down.

Nicholas Melillo 49:27

Arnold's a big cigar smoker? Yeah, he knows his stuff. Yeah, to

Nick VinZant 49:31

do it, right. Um, but again,

Nicholas Melillo 49:33

it's what you like to it's like when you know, no, you know, your stuff is what you like, who's to tell you what you should be enjoying and what you shouldn't be enjoying? I think he gets clicky a lot of times when you go into cigar shops, maybe, you know it gets like you know, the real hardcore guys, you know, think they they kind of know everything and it's really about again what you enjoy

Nick VinZant 49:59

that's all Questions that got me? Is there anything else you think people should know? Or what's kind of coming up for you? Where can people find you? Where can people get the cigars? All of that kind of stuff?

Nicholas Melillo 50:07

So WW foundation cigars.com I think I forgot to W but you guys know figure it out. Foundation cigars.com We have a great store locator. We don't sell directly to consumers. So we only sell via cigar shops throughout the country. So you can find on our website, a store locator for a shop near you. We're all over Instagram foundation cigars. I am under Nick. Our agua. That's my Ah, see Graham. I like it and I are like agua, we are actually gearing up to open up a brand new office on 100 acre tobacco farm in the Connecticut River Valley. So it's really going to become the forefront of foundation cigars, this connection between Connecticut and Nicaragua. So I hope to embark on educating a lot more people about the history of cigars and tobacco within the Connecticut River Valley because it's it's really a national treasure. It's the Napa Valley of of Connecticut. And I'm hoping we're gonna get into our new office. It's been a lot of delays here over the past few years with supply chain and COVID. So in September, we're looking forward to moving in and then hope hopefully next season we'll be able to have people come up and and eventually start tours to really educate people about the process. So I'd love to have you up at some time.

Nick VinZant 51:37

Yeah, man ever and not know that Connecticut was big into cigars. I would have never known that.

Nicholas Melillo 51:44

Yeah, they you know, most of the guys are farmers. So they really over the past 100 years didn't do a great job marketing at all. Yeah, too busy working. Work right too busy working. Yeah, a lot of farmers are not necessarily marketing inclined to, to marketing in general. And the state hasn't really done a great job because of course, tobacco politically, tobacco doesn't have any, you know, it's not positive for any politicians to kind of back. So we're, we're kind of taking the lead with some of my friends in the valley and new generations of of tobacco growers there to educate the world about the Connecticut River Valley.

Hollywood Accent Coach Audrey LeCrone

From “Nope” and “The Dirt”, to “Judas and the Black Messiah”, Hollywood Dialect Coach Audrey LeCrone helps actors perfect their accents and get the character right. We talk teaching actors accents, becoming a dialect coach and the best and worst movie accents. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Words.

Audrey LeCrone: 02:15ish

Pointless: 42:50ish

Top 5: 01:02:00ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

http://aacamericanaccentcoaching.com (Audrey LeCrone Website)

https://www.instagram.com/americanaccentcoaching (Audrey LeCrone Instagram)

Interview with Audrey LeCrone: Hollywood Dialect Coach

0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, Hollywood accents, and worst words,

0:22

it's a very difficult job. Because you have to have a patient ear, like what I do is listen to one sentence over and over and over and over and over, break it down and then teach a celebrity who may or may or may not be in the mood to learn it. In Judas and the black Messiah, he's playing a a historical figure, who it was vital that we got it perfectly. So I was giving him notes after every take. This way, we're not just stereotyping. We're not making assumptions about the way other people speak. Because the way you speak is a pretty intimate personal thing.

0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it helps out the show and more than anything, we really just like hearing from everyone. It's so interesting to hear what people think about the guests, we talk to the topics we discuss and the top fives. So if there's anything you want to say, we are all ears, leave us a comment on the app that you're listening to on social media, or we have a voicemail set up 316-519-7719. So our first guest has worked on major Hollywood movies from nope, Judas and the black Messiah, the dirt, the list just goes on and on. And what she does is teach actors how to sound more like the characters that they're playing. And she does that by teaching them specific accents. She specializes in different regional American accents, but she has taught people how to speak over 70 different accents. This is Hollywood dialect coach, Audrey LA. Crone, is this something that you set out to do? Or is this something that you kind of found yourself in?

2:19

It's kind of an amazing journey for each dialect coach, because there's no degree of a dialect coaching degree, there's, there's, you can't really study it, per se and a university or something. I was trained as an actor. And so I have an acting degree. And I was also an English tutor. So I would mostly teach. Adults are graduate students from other countries, ESL, so teach English as a second language. And I loved that. And I also loved acting, but acting wasn't paying the bills. So I started answering tutoring calls from doctors from other countries who weren't able to speak clearly enough for their patients to understand them. And so I was like, I think I could do this. And I did the whole fake it till you make it thing. So I read a bunch of books, tried out different things, and basically combined my acting experience with the tutoring with with teaching English. And so that I started out doing that maybe eight years ago,

3:27

is that the common path that other people in the industry would kind of find that this is a thing that they just found themselves in? Or is there like a dialect coaching school somewhere that most people go to?

3:41

A lot of dialect coaches are actors, actors, turn dialect coaches, and even if they're linguists, they have some sort of acting background, oftentimes, or maybe there's not, but everyone I know has some sort of basis in acting. Because it's not just linguistics. It's the study of how to put a voice in an accent how to embody it artistically.

4:06

So when you teach somebody something, like is it a muscle memory thing? Are you trying to No, put your tongue to the left side? Like is it how do you even teach somebody?

4:17

I teach with a variety of methods. Everyone learns differently. Some people do react really well with like, Okay, do this with your tongue. Other people do well with listening and repeating, imitating whoever voice model they they resonate with. Some others do well with imagery, like imagine a balloon sitting in your tongue, and we have all the space in the mouth.

4:42

That's what's so fascinating to me about it. Like I don't really think about the way that I speak or why I speak the way or what's even happening in my brain or my mouth. Is it a hard thing to teach people?

4:55

Let me ask you this. Can you do any other accents?

4:58

Governor done?

5:00

Yeah, have you ever put on a bad British accent?

5:03

I'm Yeah, I guess I've tried. I can't think of anything. That's what's weird. Like, if you hadn't asked me that question, I could probably do it. But as soon as I think about it, no idea what to do.

5:17

It's very, very difficult. So any actors that you see doing an accent and a movie, just know that their load of work has doubled? By doing an accent? It's incredible. Do you have

5:30

people like how long will it take? Right? Let's say, on average got somebody comes in, they want to do this, like how long does it take you to get somebody to be able to do it?

5:42

This is the million dollar question. Some everyone is different. Again, some people are parents, and they are the lucky ones. They're gifted a great year. And they won't take very long at all. Those are the people who you'll be like, Hey, do a British accent. Now they're suddenly talking like this. And they're like, I've never even heard a British accent. And I can do it. And it's like, wow, you you have a great ear. Those people will take a couple sessions, and they'll get it. Other people, normal people, anywhere from a month of yours. Yeah, I

6:17

would imagine it depends on it, right? Like some things are just a little bit different.

6:22

Especially if, if English is not your first language, and you're learning an American accent or whatever other accent in English, if English is your second or third or fourth language is going to take longer. Most actors

6:33

that have anything to do with the quality of the actor and the sense of like, Look, if they're a good actor, they're probably going to pick it up fast.

6:40

No, it's their ear. In some respects, it's just, you're good at some things, and you're not good at others. I mean, when you say good actor, that's also subjective. You know, some good actors are really good at transforming themselves, like Meryl Streep type, and we don't recognize her from one movie to the next. Other actors play the same person, every movie, and we'd love them.

7:07

So like, where do you? Where do you find that most people are genuinely struggling?

7:12

A lot of people can get the accent. But I think one of the hardest parts is learning how to go from make that jump from it being a technical thing, to it being embodied it being part of the character. So if you see someone doing a bad accent, or doing an accent, and it's like, oh, that I don't really believe that person doing that accent, then they haven't they haven't bridged that gap yet. They're, they're doing the accent. I don't know what accent I'm doing, but they're doing the accent. But they're not really. It hasn't become part of their character yet.

7:49

That makes sense. I guess I think about it in terms of like, you could teach someone how to shoot a basketball, but that doesn't mean they're gonna make it.

7:56

Or you could teach someone how to do some dance steps, but it may not be wonderful to watch them. They may not be an artful dancer.

8:05

Do you have people then like, Look, I know people who just you could show them stuff about dancing all their life, like do you have some people that like this? Just can't do it? Yeah. How many? Like what percentage would you say? It's like, look, it's just not happening?

8:21

Um, I am an optimist, and in every sense of the word, so I can't even my brain won't allow me to make a percentage. I'm not sure. I was like, yes, you can do it. I'm like the coach. It's like, I believe in you. We can get this it might take 10 years.

8:41

They're gonna get it. Yeah, well, I guess Okay, would it is that normal, unusual? Or, like unusual, but it does happen?

8:52

I guess that would be either. Won't be unusual. So it's

8:57

not. Not that not that I know what you mean, right? Like one out of 10 or two out of 10? Like, it doesn't happen a lot. But it does happen. Exactly. That definitely happens when somebody kind of starts like walking me through what the process would be like, you start with somebody. What do you guys kind of do?

9:14

Sure, absolutely. So first, I let's say let's say we're working together and we're going to change your accent and to something else. First, I would just have you imagine. Oh, actually, we're gonna think about the American accent the way you speak. Currently, you're you have like a general American accent right. Where are you from?

9:31

Kansas.

9:32

You're from Kansas. I'm from Kansas.

9:35

Are we about to be best friends? Where are you from in Kansas

9:38

near Salina?

9:40

I'm from Wichita. No way. Okay, now you got to say what book is okay for people who are listening to this like What the hell's going on here? It's a wizard of the oz reunion, which Utah and Salon are about an hour away? Yeah. So So I'm

9:55

from like, 20 minutes north of Salina in a town called Bennington, Kansas. Okay, and for everyone else who's listening, if you're from the south and you're going to Colorado, that's where you turn left. If you're from the north and you're going to Colorado, that's where you turn right? Okay.

10:13

So I grew up in 316 area code, are you 316 or 7785? changes my Oh, in that crazy.

10:23

This, this is amazing. You never meet Kansans say

10:28

stay in Kansas mostly? Most of the time, like, yeah, I have been told though at times, because I came from news and I would hear this, that I drag out my vows, it can sound southern. I don't know what that means. But okay, but like, if you were teaching me so to speak, or when are teaching somebody like, what are we

10:49

okay? Okay. So if I'm teaching you to just be aware of your voice, and maybe to change the way you're speaking, first of all, the way that you're speaking currently is with our perfect Kansas accent, obviously. But if you think of a balloon sitting on your tongue, okay. It carves out the space, and that puts the placement of your voice right in the middle. So if you were to make a thinking sound you would say probably right, how do you think? What's your sound? Take?

11:24

A bite to my mouth, it feels right.

11:30

Mm hmm. So we start with the imagination there and some awareness, some physical awareness.

11:37

i Oh, my God, like if you do it, though, like, right in the middle. If you move your tongue around, it does sound a little bit different, doesn't it?

11:46

Exactly. What if you had? What if you just brought some awareness into your lips? How would that change your sound?

11:52

Like,

11:53

I'm thinking, I don't think maybe round your lips a little bit or just tend to

11:57

hold my lips or like that tingly feeling like when you go to the dentist. And they like turn it you know what I'm talking about like that like sandpaper issue where you sit on your arm too long? Yeah. Ah, oh my god, I can feel it in my lips.

12:13

So that change of placement would be the first step to changing your accent. So if you wanted to speak with a French accent, let's say or we said British earlier, and I would think about my lips, tensing them slightly. And I would think about taking that middle placement and bringing it forward. So my would go.

12:38

I may be one of your students that could potentially just never get it.

12:42

Well, here's the thing. If you're afraid of failing, you won't get it on. It's true. If you're willing to make stupid sounds, and you're willing to just try. Great, you

12:53

can do I do. Okay, I put it in front of my mouth.

12:58

So think about it in the middle again, feel that middle. And now bring it forward. And maybe think about it on

13:12

the tight. And you feel like when I talk normally, like my tongue is very close to my top teeth. I don't know if that means anything or not. Feel like I got it right there.

13:26

There you go. And your tongue is also not going to have that carved out concave shape. But instead, it might be a little bit more forward. So even even, for instance, I've had a client before on a movie where she was British, and she was speaking in an American accent. But you could still you could still hear her forward placement. So you can kind of maybe hear how my voice has changed a bit. So it sounds less American. Maybe

14:02

it dies. A British person who's lived in time.

14:06

Yes, exactly. I'm speaking with my American accent. But with a British placement. I

14:12

always think of that line from Game of Thrones where the guy's like, oh, I recognize that accent. I've gotten rid of it. I recognize when people have tried to get rid of it too.

14:21

Let's try one that's very different from your own way of speaking. Let's try a British RP accent. Received Pronunciation that's like fancy British. So let's, let's say that you are going to speak with this British accent. Okay, we were going to try like an old school British accent. So if we think about our American being right in the middle of our mouth and we think about the British being all the way out here. So before we were talking about the lips, but What if it was here? Like, where my hand is all the way out in front of my mouth? Okay, so you're going to try something, and we're not going to be afraid to fail. It's okay to fail. So give me a British phrase. What have you heard?

15:23

cracking under pressure? All I can say is put the car in the car park.

15:32

Like the Boston Boston, that when people say, Oh no, they say the Harvard Yard.

15:39

I can't think of shrimp on the barbie cup of tea. That's Australia, New Zealand.

15:47

Say, would you like a cup of tea? Okay. Okay, so, try it thinking about all the way coming out all the way front. Would you like a cup of

16:00

would you like a cup of tea?

16:04

Cool. Okay, so right now you were like coming up here into your nose? Because you're afraid of doing it wrong. And you're trying to get it right the first time. But don't worry about it. Would you like a cup of tea? Yeah, now put your hand flat out in front of your face, and try and make the words hit that hand.

16:25

Would you like a cup of tea?

16:28

Cool. Now bring your resonance back down into your belly. Meaning we don't have to talk up here. But you can talk in your normal voice. Would you like a cup of tea? Fire? I don't know, try. Try it low again. Would you like would you like a cup of tea? There you go. That's better felt

16:53

like that was actually better. I'm just picturing my hand. But I tried to go like Barry White, like, Would you like a cup of tea?

17:03

There you go. See now from here, you've got the placement you've got, you've got the target where your voice is going. Now it's about playing around with it. Doing an accent is very, very tedious. So the more you can make it playful and fun, the better.

17:17

That's a lot like I have to think about that so hard. I don't understand how somebody could act and do that at the same time.

17:27

Yeah, now imagine having to do an emotional scene where your mother has died. And you have to have these real sad, heartbreaking emotions, and still be like, Oh, Mother, I'm so sad. Like, and not just think about the accent. Would you like a

17:47

cup of tea? That is tough. Because you're essentially like, how do I not be myself and not sound like myself at the same time?

18:00

But still have genuine emotions?

18:03

Yeah, I can see why people would struggle with that so much to really do that.

18:08

You can see why all the Oscar winners are doing accents.

18:11

Right? Right. Because you really kinda, it's a lot harder. Well, you are transforming that. I could see that be on one hand being very, very difficult. On the other hand, making it easier, because you're not being yourself anymore. You can actually be somebody completely different. So is the goal then to like get them to the point where they're not even? They're not even thinking about it? It's muscle memory.

18:35

Yes. And then sometimes, sometimes even then they'll slip into their own when they're not even realizing it. Yeah. So it's something that you just constantly have to be aware of. And that's why it is easier to have me on set as a security blanket to be like, Yeah, you got

18:52

it. Yeah. Somebody to kind of just reassure if for nothing else gonna be like, you got that one.

18:57

I tell people I have a patented thumbs up.

19:01

Where's the dialect coach? She's just sitting back there with their thumb off. I think she always

19:06

know you're gonna have a whole new.

19:07

She honestly do. Right? Like how difficult that is to kind of? Well, it's one thing I feel like I can do it when I don't think about it at all. But then as soon as you think about it, like how the hell do I do this?

19:21

Right? And so then if you have lines to say, or if you're not an actor, if you have a speech to make something like that, if you have your sales pitch to make, then you have to think about it.

19:33

Right where he's like, I can still pick it up. Do people Yeah, yeah. Now okay, is it kind of I think in terms of, you know, mathematical or physical or things like that, like is it is for most people is it generally the same like whatever accent Oh, you want to speak? German. Put your tongue to the left side. Everybody goes to the left side, like is everybody's kind of process exactly the same or do you have to like it experiment with people.

20:01

Oh, I definitely experiment. Yeah. For some people just this trick doesn't even work. So then

20:07

Okay. When? How does the kind of the process worked? Is the studio contact you? Do they usually kind of does it an individual actor usually contact you are how does this work?

20:20

It depends on my job is very random. So sometimes the studio will contact me, and I'll work with, I can work with actors remotely or on set. And then other times people will go through my website, and those often are non actors, as well. So I work with business professionals of all different industries. And then also, it'll just be word of mouth. So someone reached out to me today saying, Hey, I got your number from blah, blah, blah. Are you free?

20:50

When you get the private people like, are they just trying to be understood? Or do they feel like look, if I can sound more American, my career, my life, social life, whatever will change.

21:01

It depends. Sometimes it is that and so I always start our lessons with Listen, there's nothing wrong with the way you speak. Everyone has an accent, everyone has a way of speaking. And, and the accent that you have, whether it's American originalism of America or somewhere else, it represents the rich cultural heritage that you come from. It represents the beautiful language that is your first or second language. And that's something to be proud of. And that's something that's incredible and part of you. So I never say that we're, we're reducing an accent or taking something away, we may be adding an American accent. And then I always try to make it so that they can turn on and off an American accent or whichever accent like putting on a mask and taking it off. Can

21:45

people go back though? Like if they're on a movie set? If they've been practicing for a long time? Can they go back? Especially if it's a dramatic change?

21:54

Yeah, yeah. You can take it on and and or put it on and take it off. Now I I'm pretty adamant with that. Because actually, I kind of grew up with more of an accent. And so when I went to acting school in Oklahoma City, I got that sort of trained out of me. And so I can, I can go back to it a little bit. And I haven't spent the time honestly to analyze it and relearn it. But I can't naturally go back into my, my accent from growing up when I want to. Unless I'm drinking between us. I'm drinking.

22:35

Then it switches.

22:39

Then people are like, where are you from? Like, Midwest? The Plains. Great Plains.

22:43

Yeah, you can hear the Kansas when you get in there. But the Midwest is supposedly not the one that like I guess I always hear like, that's the one that doesn't have an accent. But I also interviewed a linguist one time who said no, Midwest does have an accent. It's just that the early famous broadcasters were all from the Midwest. So they thought that was how people spoke. Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah,

23:11

absolutely. Let's do it. The big

23:12

obvious one, right. Hardest accent to work with. And we're not we're not bagging on cultures or anything like that. But what country culture generally seems to have the hardest time transitioning to an American accent.

23:28

I think oftentimes, it's more of a question of exposure. So if I am, for instance, born in the UK, I'm going to grow up watching American TV and American movies, listening to American media all the time. So I'm more likely to be able to get an American accent easier, because I've heard it. If I've grown up in, in Bangkok, I may not have consumed so much American media, it may be more difficult. So I would say cultures or people who have less exposure to American accent all through growing up, it's going to be harder.

24:05

So it almost doesn't matter where they're from. It's just if they've heard it before, and kind of

24:11

Yes, yes. Because any any other answer that I'm thinking of right now. I'm thinking of exceptions, like oh, well, maybe I was like, well, maybe a Japanese accent. I'm like, No, I know someone who has a perfect American accent who lives in Japan. And then was like, oh, maybe a French accent? Nope. I can think of someone who has a perfect American accent. It lives in France. So no, it's exposure, and it's the person's ability. What's

24:35

the hardest way? Like, what's the hardest accent to teach someone? Like if you were going to teach them this one? What's kind of the hardest one like, oh, that's got a lot of intricacies to it.

24:47

I don't I also don't know if there's a hardest one because with any accent that I am teaching, I'm going to do a lot of research. And I'm going to really delve in deeply and see I'm going to try and think of it as something that I've never experienced before. Just so I don't have anything that's not covered, right? So I'm going to ask people about certain words or specific phrases, things like that. I'm going to listen to a bunch of different voice samples to make sure that my perceptions are correct. So I treat every accent as a difficult accent. Basically,

25:28

I can't I wish I was smarter. I could think of a better way to ask this question. But I'm not. So like, when you generally teach somebody the accent, are you kind of teaching them the real accent or like the stereotype of the accent? That the only thing that comes to mind right, immediately, right is like, I think of a poo from The Simpsons, which is like the stereotype of an accent is do you have to kind of make sure that you're not, you're teaching it like, like, well, that's what like, do you teach the stereotype or teach the real thing?

26:00

I think the industry standards have completely changed over the last few years. So 20 years ago, someone would be like, Yeah, I just teach like a general Indian accent. Now, it's 2022. Things are different. So there's a lot more cultural sensitivity to that. I teach specific regions, specific city areas, and specific personality types. So if I have an actor coming to me with trying to get an accent for a project, I'm going to have them work with me to figure out exactly who who works as a voice model, I like to have two or three voice models for them, so that they can have someone else other than me to model their, their character sound off of. And it's a real person. This way, we're not just stereotyping. We're not making assumptions about the way other people speak. Because the way you speak is a pretty intimate personal thing.

26:57

Like how specific then do you generally have to be like, Look, I want you to have a southern accent from the 1960s. No, that's a 1970s Southern accent, like, are they looking for that kind of specificity on things?

27:14

Sometimes, but I think it's whatever serves the story best. Sometimes it's nice to get that specific. So for instance, let's use let's use Judas in the black Messiah as an example. I coached most of the actors on that. And so, Daniel Kaluga, was playing Fred Hampton. FRED HAMPTON is a historical figure, he has this amazing booming voice and is from a specific neighborhood in Chicago. Now, I listened to so many hours of the real Fred Hampton. And sometimes his accent, and the way he speaks is so neighborhood specific that it's not digestible for the rest of the US. So we had to, we had to figure out exactly the spectrum between fact and fiction between how he actually speaks and then how, how we can form the accent to make the movie work.

28:13

It could be so neighborhood specific that nobody outside of it understands him. Right now, when you do like work on a movie like that, are you on the sad? Are you just Yeah, but

28:23

that when I was on set, then how much do they like? How,

28:26

how much? Are you working with them? Is it like after every scene, you come up? And like, Hey, you should do to do that?

28:31

Oh, it depends. It depends. So for instance, I worked on nope to I don't know, it's in theaters right now. Daniel has more of a general American accent versus such a specific sound. In Judas in the black Messiah. He's playing a a historical figure, who it was vital that we got it perfectly. So I was giving him notes after every take. I was really tough on him. And he and I work on the same same wavelength. So I was like, Yeah, we're gonna be perfect. And he's like, great. Okay, we got this on. Nope, his character doesn't speak as much. And it's more of a general American. Well, it's a it's a California accent. Again, we did get very, very specific. But I didn't have to give him as many notes because it wasn't as hard. And if he did some things that were not exactly the way we planned it out. It was okay.

29:25

When you do something like that, is that because I don't want to use the word struggling, right? That doesn't seem to be the right word in that case, but like, do people need that much like you've got to work on this all the time, or you're going to lose it?

29:38

Sometimes I think, again, it comes down to that gift of the ear. If you're able to slip in and out of the accent easily then yeah, you can do that. If if actors are on set, it definitely behooves them to have someone there as a security blanket who's got their back, because even if they're not able to get it, I can Tell the script supervisor like hey, this, this person didn't get it this take this take this take, but they did get it this take.

30:07

That makes sense, right? Like, they just messed it up. But they can't do it as opposed to like,

30:11

Hey, you got Yeah, we made VoiceOver on writing like

30:15

he they're just they can't say the word juxtaposition. It's not. It's not happening, um, film. Now you don't have to say person unless you want to get. But see when I say people, like we'll take all the gossip that you want to give us. But what film would you say had the best accent like, oh, they did really well. Overall film or a person? Because it's best I think people like complement. Which one do you think was like, they really messed up the accents in that one? Like? Like dialect coaches or eyes are twitching over this movie?

30:50

Um,

30:52

that's that's the, the answer, but I don't want to give it to you.

30:57

Yes, that's correct. I, I'll just keep it very personal. In Judas in the black Messiah. I did those accents. And they were great. Daniel won the Oscar for it. For other ones, you know, you be the judge a lot of times does it? Does it take you out of the story? Does the accent take you out of the story? And again, it's art. So it's subjective. So my answer doesn't necessarily have to be the end all be all. Also, because I'm not going to share my answers. I'm because I'm a nice wholesome candidate. We've got manners. That's

31:33

been like, but there are some film. Okay, let me ask you, maybe you can answer it this way. For dialect coaches like yourself? Do most movies get it? Right? Or do most movies annoy you?

31:46

Um, most movies, if there's an accent, I'm watching the accent. And it takes me out of the movie, just because that's my job. A lot of them are not annoying. But I'm I'm interested in seeing how the actor is using the accent. And a lot of times, it's it's lovely. A lot of times it does work. And I'm amazed at someone's work. And I look up the dialect coach afterwards. I'm like, Oh, that's great. They did such nice things.

32:15

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, Hollywood accents, and worst words,

Audrey LeCrone 0:22

it's a very difficult job. Because you have to have a patient ear, like what I do is listen to one sentence over and over and over and over and over, break it down and then teach a celebrity who may or may or may not be in the mood to learn it. In Judas and the black Messiah, he's playing a a historical figure, who it was vital that we got it perfectly. So I was giving him notes after every take. This way, we're not just stereotyping. We're not making assumptions about the way other people speak. Because the way you speak is a pretty intimate personal thing.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it helps out the show and more than anything, we really just like hearing from everyone. It's so interesting to hear what people think about the guests, we talk to the topics we discuss and the top fives. So if there's anything you want to say, we are all ears, leave us a comment on the app that you're listening to on social media, or we have a voicemail set up 316-519-7719. So our first guest has worked on major Hollywood movies from nope, Judas and the black Messiah, the dirt, the list just goes on and on. And what she does is teach actors how to sound more like the characters that they're playing. And she does that by teaching them specific accents. She specializes in different regional American accents, but she has taught people how to speak over 70 different accents. This is Hollywood dialect coach, Audrey LA. Crone, is this something that you set out to do? Or is this something that you kind of found yourself in?

Audrey LeCrone 2:19

It's kind of an amazing journey for each dialect coach, because there's no degree of a dialect coaching degree, there's, there's, you can't really study it, per se and a university or something. I was trained as an actor. And so I have an acting degree. And I was also an English tutor. So I would mostly teach. Adults are graduate students from other countries, ESL, so teach English as a second language. And I loved that. And I also loved acting, but acting wasn't paying the bills. So I started answering tutoring calls from doctors from other countries who weren't able to speak clearly enough for their patients to understand them. And so I was like, I think I could do this. And I did the whole fake it till you make it thing. So I read a bunch of books, tried out different things, and basically combined my acting experience with the tutoring with with teaching English. And so that I started out doing that maybe eight years ago,

Nick VinZant 3:27

is that the common path that other people in the industry would kind of find that this is a thing that they just found themselves in? Or is there like a dialect coaching school somewhere that most people go to?

Audrey LeCrone 3:41

A lot of dialect coaches are actors, actors, turn dialect coaches, and even if they're linguists, they have some sort of acting background, oftentimes, or maybe there's not, but everyone I know has some sort of basis in acting. Because it's not just linguistics. It's the study of how to put a voice in an accent how to embody it artistically.

Nick VinZant 4:06

So when you teach somebody something, like is it a muscle memory thing? Are you trying to No, put your tongue to the left side? Like is it how do you even teach somebody?

Audrey LeCrone 4:17

I teach with a variety of methods. Everyone learns differently. Some people do react really well with like, Okay, do this with your tongue. Other people do well with listening and repeating, imitating whoever voice model they they resonate with. Some others do well with imagery, like imagine a balloon sitting in your tongue, and we have all the space in the mouth.

Nick VinZant 4:42

That's what's so fascinating to me about it. Like I don't really think about the way that I speak or why I speak the way or what's even happening in my brain or my mouth. Is it a hard thing to teach people?

Audrey LeCrone 4:55

Let me ask you this. Can you do any other accents?

Nick VinZant 4:58

Governor done?

Audrey LeCrone 5:00

Yeah, have you ever put on a bad British accent?

Nick VinZant 5:03

I'm Yeah, I guess I've tried. I can't think of anything. That's what's weird. Like, if you hadn't asked me that question, I could probably do it. But as soon as I think about it, no idea what to do.

Audrey LeCrone 5:17

It's very, very difficult. So any actors that you see doing an accent and a movie, just know that their load of work has doubled? By doing an accent? It's incredible. Do you have

Nick VinZant 5:30

people like how long will it take? Right? Let's say, on average got somebody comes in, they want to do this, like how long does it take you to get somebody to be able to do it?

Audrey LeCrone 5:42

This is the million dollar question. Some everyone is different. Again, some people are parents, and they are the lucky ones. They're gifted a great year. And they won't take very long at all. Those are the people who you'll be like, Hey, do a British accent. Now they're suddenly talking like this. And they're like, I've never even heard a British accent. And I can do it. And it's like, wow, you you have a great ear. Those people will take a couple sessions, and they'll get it. Other people, normal people, anywhere from a month of yours. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 6:17

would imagine it depends on it, right? Like some things are just a little bit different.

Audrey LeCrone 6:22

Especially if, if English is not your first language, and you're learning an American accent or whatever other accent in English, if English is your second or third or fourth language is going to take longer. Most actors

Nick VinZant 6:33

that have anything to do with the quality of the actor and the sense of like, Look, if they're a good actor, they're probably going to pick it up fast.

Audrey LeCrone 6:40

No, it's their ear. In some respects, it's just, you're good at some things, and you're not good at others. I mean, when you say good actor, that's also subjective. You know, some good actors are really good at transforming themselves, like Meryl Streep type, and we don't recognize her from one movie to the next. Other actors play the same person, every movie, and we'd love them.

Nick VinZant 7:07

So like, where do you? Where do you find that most people are genuinely struggling?

Audrey LeCrone 7:12

A lot of people can get the accent. But I think one of the hardest parts is learning how to go from make that jump from it being a technical thing, to it being embodied it being part of the character. So if you see someone doing a bad accent, or doing an accent, and it's like, oh, that I don't really believe that person doing that accent, then they haven't they haven't bridged that gap yet. They're, they're doing the accent. I don't know what accent I'm doing, but they're doing the accent. But they're not really. It hasn't become part of their character yet.

Nick VinZant 7:49

That makes sense. I guess I think about it in terms of like, you could teach someone how to shoot a basketball, but that doesn't mean they're gonna make it.

Audrey LeCrone 7:56

Or you could teach someone how to do some dance steps, but it may not be wonderful to watch them. They may not be an artful dancer.

Nick VinZant 8:05

Do you have people then like, Look, I know people who just you could show them stuff about dancing all their life, like do you have some people that like this? Just can't do it? Yeah. How many? Like what percentage would you say? It's like, look, it's just not happening?

Audrey LeCrone 8:21

Um, I am an optimist, and in every sense of the word, so I can't even my brain won't allow me to make a percentage. I'm not sure. I was like, yes, you can do it. I'm like the coach. It's like, I believe in you. We can get this it might take 10 years.

Nick VinZant 8:41

They're gonna get it. Yeah, well, I guess Okay, would it is that normal, unusual? Or, like unusual, but it does happen?

Audrey LeCrone 8:52

I guess that would be either. Won't be unusual. So it's

Nick VinZant 8:57

not. Not that not that I know what you mean, right? Like one out of 10 or two out of 10? Like, it doesn't happen a lot. But it does happen. Exactly. That definitely happens when somebody kind of starts like walking me through what the process would be like, you start with somebody. What do you guys kind of do?

Audrey LeCrone 9:14

Sure, absolutely. So first, I let's say let's say we're working together and we're going to change your accent and to something else. First, I would just have you imagine. Oh, actually, we're gonna think about the American accent the way you speak. Currently, you're you have like a general American accent right. Where are you from?

Nick VinZant 9:31

Kansas.

Audrey LeCrone 9:32

You're from Kansas. I'm from Kansas.

Nick VinZant 9:35

Are we about to be best friends? Where are you from in Kansas

Audrey LeCrone 9:38

near Salina?

Nick VinZant 9:40

I'm from Wichita. No way. Okay, now you got to say what book is okay for people who are listening to this like What the hell's going on here? It's a wizard of the oz reunion, which Utah and Salon are about an hour away? Yeah. So So I'm

Audrey LeCrone 9:55

from like, 20 minutes north of Salina in a town called Bennington, Kansas. Okay, and for everyone else who's listening, if you're from the south and you're going to Colorado, that's where you turn left. If you're from the north and you're going to Colorado, that's where you turn right? Okay.

Nick VinZant 10:13

So I grew up in 316 area code, are you 316 or 7785? changes my Oh, in that crazy.

Audrey LeCrone 10:23

This, this is amazing. You never meet Kansans say

Nick VinZant 10:28

stay in Kansas mostly? Most of the time, like, yeah, I have been told though at times, because I came from news and I would hear this, that I drag out my vows, it can sound southern. I don't know what that means. But okay, but like, if you were teaching me so to speak, or when are teaching somebody like, what are we

Audrey LeCrone 10:49

okay? Okay. So if I'm teaching you to just be aware of your voice, and maybe to change the way you're speaking, first of all, the way that you're speaking currently is with our perfect Kansas accent, obviously. But if you think of a balloon sitting on your tongue, okay. It carves out the space, and that puts the placement of your voice right in the middle. So if you were to make a thinking sound you would say probably right, how do you think? What's your sound? Take?

Nick VinZant 11:24

A bite to my mouth, it feels right.

Audrey LeCrone 11:30

Mm hmm. So we start with the imagination there and some awareness, some physical awareness.

Nick VinZant 11:37

i Oh, my God, like if you do it, though, like, right in the middle. If you move your tongue around, it does sound a little bit different, doesn't it?

Audrey LeCrone 11:46

Exactly. What if you had? What if you just brought some awareness into your lips? How would that change your sound?

Nick VinZant 11:52

Like,

Audrey LeCrone 11:53

I'm thinking, I don't think maybe round your lips a little bit or just tend to

Nick VinZant 11:57

hold my lips or like that tingly feeling like when you go to the dentist. And they like turn it you know what I'm talking about like that like sandpaper issue where you sit on your arm too long? Yeah. Ah, oh my god, I can feel it in my lips.

Audrey LeCrone 12:13

So that change of placement would be the first step to changing your accent. So if you wanted to speak with a French accent, let's say or we said British earlier, and I would think about my lips, tensing them slightly. And I would think about taking that middle placement and bringing it forward. So my would go.

Nick VinZant 12:38

I may be one of your students that could potentially just never get it.

Audrey LeCrone 12:42

Well, here's the thing. If you're afraid of failing, you won't get it on. It's true. If you're willing to make stupid sounds, and you're willing to just try. Great, you

Nick VinZant 12:53

can do I do. Okay, I put it in front of my mouth.

Audrey LeCrone 12:58

So think about it in the middle again, feel that middle. And now bring it forward. And maybe think about it on

Nick VinZant 13:12

the tight. And you feel like when I talk normally, like my tongue is very close to my top teeth. I don't know if that means anything or not. Feel like I got it right there.

Audrey LeCrone 13:26

There you go. And your tongue is also not going to have that carved out concave shape. But instead, it might be a little bit more forward. So even even, for instance, I've had a client before on a movie where she was British, and she was speaking in an American accent. But you could still you could still hear her forward placement. So you can kind of maybe hear how my voice has changed a bit. So it sounds less American. Maybe

Nick VinZant 14:02

it dies. A British person who's lived in time.

Audrey LeCrone 14:06

Yes, exactly. I'm speaking with my American accent. But with a British placement. I

Nick VinZant 14:12

always think of that line from Game of Thrones where the guy's like, oh, I recognize that accent. I've gotten rid of it. I recognize when people have tried to get rid of it too.

Audrey LeCrone 14:21

Let's try one that's very different from your own way of speaking. Let's try a British RP accent. Received Pronunciation that's like fancy British. So let's, let's say that you are going to speak with this British accent. Okay, we were going to try like an old school British accent. So if we think about our American being right in the middle of our mouth and we think about the British being all the way out here. So before we were talking about the lips, but What if it was here? Like, where my hand is all the way out in front of my mouth? Okay, so you're going to try something, and we're not going to be afraid to fail. It's okay to fail. So give me a British phrase. What have you heard?

Nick VinZant 15:23

cracking under pressure? All I can say is put the car in the car park.

Audrey LeCrone 15:32

Like the Boston Boston, that when people say, Oh no, they say the Harvard Yard.

Nick VinZant 15:39

I can't think of shrimp on the barbie cup of tea. That's Australia, New Zealand.

Audrey LeCrone 15:47

Say, would you like a cup of tea? Okay. Okay, so, try it thinking about all the way coming out all the way front. Would you like a cup of

Nick VinZant 16:00

would you like a cup of tea?

Audrey LeCrone 16:04

Cool. Okay, so right now you were like coming up here into your nose? Because you're afraid of doing it wrong. And you're trying to get it right the first time. But don't worry about it. Would you like a cup of tea? Yeah, now put your hand flat out in front of your face, and try and make the words hit that hand.

Nick VinZant 16:25

Would you like a cup of tea?

Audrey LeCrone 16:28

Cool. Now bring your resonance back down into your belly. Meaning we don't have to talk up here. But you can talk in your normal voice. Would you like a cup of tea? Fire? I don't know, try. Try it low again. Would you like would you like a cup of tea? There you go. That's better felt

Nick VinZant 16:53

like that was actually better. I'm just picturing my hand. But I tried to go like Barry White, like, Would you like a cup of tea?

Audrey LeCrone 17:03

There you go. See now from here, you've got the placement you've got, you've got the target where your voice is going. Now it's about playing around with it. Doing an accent is very, very tedious. So the more you can make it playful and fun, the better.

Nick VinZant 17:17

That's a lot like I have to think about that so hard. I don't understand how somebody could act and do that at the same time.

Audrey LeCrone 17:27

Yeah, now imagine having to do an emotional scene where your mother has died. And you have to have these real sad, heartbreaking emotions, and still be like, Oh, Mother, I'm so sad. Like, and not just think about the accent. Would you like a

Nick VinZant 17:47

cup of tea? That is tough. Because you're essentially like, how do I not be myself and not sound like myself at the same time?

Audrey LeCrone 18:00

But still have genuine emotions?

Nick VinZant 18:03

Yeah, I can see why people would struggle with that so much to really do that.

Audrey LeCrone 18:08

You can see why all the Oscar winners are doing accents.

Nick VinZant 18:11

Right? Right. Because you really kinda, it's a lot harder. Well, you are transforming that. I could see that be on one hand being very, very difficult. On the other hand, making it easier, because you're not being yourself anymore. You can actually be somebody completely different. So is the goal then to like get them to the point where they're not even? They're not even thinking about it? It's muscle memory.

Audrey LeCrone 18:35

Yes. And then sometimes, sometimes even then they'll slip into their own when they're not even realizing it. Yeah. So it's something that you just constantly have to be aware of. And that's why it is easier to have me on set as a security blanket to be like, Yeah, you got

Nick VinZant 18:52

it. Yeah. Somebody to kind of just reassure if for nothing else gonna be like, you got that one.

Audrey LeCrone 18:57

I tell people I have a patented thumbs up.

Nick VinZant 19:01

Where's the dialect coach? She's just sitting back there with their thumb off. I think she always

Audrey LeCrone 19:06

know you're gonna have a whole new.

Nick VinZant 19:07

She honestly do. Right? Like how difficult that is to kind of? Well, it's one thing I feel like I can do it when I don't think about it at all. But then as soon as you think about it, like how the hell do I do this?

Audrey LeCrone 19:21

Right? And so then if you have lines to say, or if you're not an actor, if you have a speech to make something like that, if you have your sales pitch to make, then you have to think about it.

Nick VinZant 19:33

Right where he's like, I can still pick it up. Do people Yeah, yeah. Now okay, is it kind of I think in terms of, you know, mathematical or physical or things like that, like is it is for most people is it generally the same like whatever accent Oh, you want to speak? German. Put your tongue to the left side. Everybody goes to the left side, like is everybody's kind of process exactly the same or do you have to like it experiment with people.

Audrey LeCrone 20:01

Oh, I definitely experiment. Yeah. For some people just this trick doesn't even work. So then

Nick VinZant 20:07

Okay. When? How does the kind of the process worked? Is the studio contact you? Do they usually kind of does it an individual actor usually contact you are how does this work?

Audrey LeCrone 20:20

It depends on my job is very random. So sometimes the studio will contact me, and I'll work with, I can work with actors remotely or on set. And then other times people will go through my website, and those often are non actors, as well. So I work with business professionals of all different industries. And then also, it'll just be word of mouth. So someone reached out to me today saying, Hey, I got your number from blah, blah, blah. Are you free?

Nick VinZant 20:50

When you get the private people like, are they just trying to be understood? Or do they feel like look, if I can sound more American, my career, my life, social life, whatever will change.

Audrey LeCrone 21:01

It depends. Sometimes it is that and so I always start our lessons with Listen, there's nothing wrong with the way you speak. Everyone has an accent, everyone has a way of speaking. And, and the accent that you have, whether it's American originalism of America or somewhere else, it represents the rich cultural heritage that you come from. It represents the beautiful language that is your first or second language. And that's something to be proud of. And that's something that's incredible and part of you. So I never say that we're, we're reducing an accent or taking something away, we may be adding an American accent. And then I always try to make it so that they can turn on and off an American accent or whichever accent like putting on a mask and taking it off. Can

Nick VinZant 21:45

people go back though? Like if they're on a movie set? If they've been practicing for a long time? Can they go back? Especially if it's a dramatic change?

Audrey LeCrone 21:54

Yeah, yeah. You can take it on and and or put it on and take it off. Now I I'm pretty adamant with that. Because actually, I kind of grew up with more of an accent. And so when I went to acting school in Oklahoma City, I got that sort of trained out of me. And so I can, I can go back to it a little bit. And I haven't spent the time honestly to analyze it and relearn it. But I can't naturally go back into my, my accent from growing up when I want to. Unless I'm drinking between us. I'm drinking.

Nick VinZant 22:35

Then it switches.

Audrey LeCrone 22:39

Then people are like, where are you from? Like, Midwest? The Plains. Great Plains.

Nick VinZant 22:43

Yeah, you can hear the Kansas when you get in there. But the Midwest is supposedly not the one that like I guess I always hear like, that's the one that doesn't have an accent. But I also interviewed a linguist one time who said no, Midwest does have an accent. It's just that the early famous broadcasters were all from the Midwest. So they thought that was how people spoke. Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah,

Audrey LeCrone 23:11

absolutely. Let's do it. The big

Nick VinZant 23:12

obvious one, right. Hardest accent to work with. And we're not we're not bagging on cultures or anything like that. But what country culture generally seems to have the hardest time transitioning to an American accent.

Audrey LeCrone 23:28

I think oftentimes, it's more of a question of exposure. So if I am, for instance, born in the UK, I'm going to grow up watching American TV and American movies, listening to American media all the time. So I'm more likely to be able to get an American accent easier, because I've heard it. If I've grown up in, in Bangkok, I may not have consumed so much American media, it may be more difficult. So I would say cultures or people who have less exposure to American accent all through growing up, it's going to be harder.

Nick VinZant 24:05

So it almost doesn't matter where they're from. It's just if they've heard it before, and kind of

Audrey LeCrone 24:11

Yes, yes. Because any any other answer that I'm thinking of right now. I'm thinking of exceptions, like oh, well, maybe I was like, well, maybe a Japanese accent. I'm like, No, I know someone who has a perfect American accent who lives in Japan. And then was like, oh, maybe a French accent? Nope. I can think of someone who has a perfect American accent. It lives in France. So no, it's exposure, and it's the person's ability. What's

Nick VinZant 24:35

the hardest way? Like, what's the hardest accent to teach someone? Like if you were going to teach them this one? What's kind of the hardest one like, oh, that's got a lot of intricacies to it.

Audrey LeCrone 24:47

I don't I also don't know if there's a hardest one because with any accent that I am teaching, I'm going to do a lot of research. And I'm going to really delve in deeply and see I'm going to try and think of it as something that I've never experienced before. Just so I don't have anything that's not covered, right? So I'm going to ask people about certain words or specific phrases, things like that. I'm going to listen to a bunch of different voice samples to make sure that my perceptions are correct. So I treat every accent as a difficult accent. Basically,

Nick VinZant 25:28

I can't I wish I was smarter. I could think of a better way to ask this question. But I'm not. So like, when you generally teach somebody the accent, are you kind of teaching them the real accent or like the stereotype of the accent? That the only thing that comes to mind right, immediately, right is like, I think of a poo from The Simpsons, which is like the stereotype of an accent is do you have to kind of make sure that you're not, you're teaching it like, like, well, that's what like, do you teach the stereotype or teach the real thing?

Audrey LeCrone 26:00

I think the industry standards have completely changed over the last few years. So 20 years ago, someone would be like, Yeah, I just teach like a general Indian accent. Now, it's 2022. Things are different. So there's a lot more cultural sensitivity to that. I teach specific regions, specific city areas, and specific personality types. So if I have an actor coming to me with trying to get an accent for a project, I'm going to have them work with me to figure out exactly who who works as a voice model, I like to have two or three voice models for them, so that they can have someone else other than me to model their, their character sound off of. And it's a real person. This way, we're not just stereotyping. We're not making assumptions about the way other people speak. Because the way you speak is a pretty intimate personal thing.

Nick VinZant 26:57

Like how specific then do you generally have to be like, Look, I want you to have a southern accent from the 1960s. No, that's a 1970s Southern accent, like, are they looking for that kind of specificity on things?

Audrey LeCrone 27:14

Sometimes, but I think it's whatever serves the story best. Sometimes it's nice to get that specific. So for instance, let's use let's use Judas in the black Messiah as an example. I coached most of the actors on that. And so, Daniel Kaluga, was playing Fred Hampton. FRED HAMPTON is a historical figure, he has this amazing booming voice and is from a specific neighborhood in Chicago. Now, I listened to so many hours of the real Fred Hampton. And sometimes his accent, and the way he speaks is so neighborhood specific that it's not digestible for the rest of the US. So we had to, we had to figure out exactly the spectrum between fact and fiction between how he actually speaks and then how, how we can form the accent to make the movie work.

Nick VinZant 28:13

It could be so neighborhood specific that nobody outside of it understands him. Right now, when you do like work on a movie like that, are you on the sad? Are you just Yeah, but

Audrey LeCrone 28:23

that when I was on set, then how much do they like? How,

Nick VinZant 28:26

how much? Are you working with them? Is it like after every scene, you come up? And like, Hey, you should do to do that?

Audrey LeCrone 28:31

Oh, it depends. It depends. So for instance, I worked on nope to I don't know, it's in theaters right now. Daniel has more of a general American accent versus such a specific sound. In Judas in the black Messiah. He's playing a a historical figure, who it was vital that we got it perfectly. So I was giving him notes after every take. I was really tough on him. And he and I work on the same same wavelength. So I was like, Yeah, we're gonna be perfect. And he's like, great. Okay, we got this on. Nope, his character doesn't speak as much. And it's more of a general American. Well, it's a it's a California accent. Again, we did get very, very specific. But I didn't have to give him as many notes because it wasn't as hard. And if he did some things that were not exactly the way we planned it out. It was okay.

Nick VinZant 29:25

When you do something like that, is that because I don't want to use the word struggling, right? That doesn't seem to be the right word in that case, but like, do people need that much like you've got to work on this all the time, or you're going to lose it?

Audrey LeCrone 29:38

Sometimes I think, again, it comes down to that gift of the ear. If you're able to slip in and out of the accent easily then yeah, you can do that. If if actors are on set, it definitely behooves them to have someone there as a security blanket who's got their back, because even if they're not able to get it, I can Tell the script supervisor like hey, this, this person didn't get it this take this take this take, but they did get it this take.

Nick VinZant 30:07

That makes sense, right? Like, they just messed it up. But they can't do it as opposed to like,

Audrey LeCrone 30:11

Hey, you got Yeah, we made VoiceOver on writing like

Nick VinZant 30:15

he they're just they can't say the word juxtaposition. It's not. It's not happening, um, film. Now you don't have to say person unless you want to get. But see when I say people, like we'll take all the gossip that you want to give us. But what film would you say had the best accent like, oh, they did really well. Overall film or a person? Because it's best I think people like complement. Which one do you think was like, they really messed up the accents in that one? Like? Like dialect coaches or eyes are twitching over this movie?

Audrey LeCrone 30:50

Um,

Nick VinZant 30:52

that's that's the, the answer, but I don't want to give it to you.

Audrey LeCrone 30:57

Yes, that's correct. I, I'll just keep it very personal. In Judas in the black Messiah. I did those accents. And they were great. Daniel won the Oscar for it. For other ones, you know, you be the judge a lot of times does it? Does it take you out of the story? Does the accent take you out of the story? And again, it's art. So it's subjective. So my answer doesn't necessarily have to be the end all be all. Also, because I'm not going to share my answers. I'm because I'm a nice wholesome candidate. We've got manners. That's

Nick VinZant 31:33

been like, but there are some film. Okay, let me ask you, maybe you can answer it this way. For dialect coaches like yourself? Do most movies get it? Right? Or do most movies annoy you?

Audrey LeCrone 31:46

Um, most movies, if there's an accent, I'm watching the accent. And it takes me out of the movie, just because that's my job. A lot of them are not annoying. But I'm I'm interested in seeing how the actor is using the accent. And a lot of times, it's it's lovely. A lot of times it does work. And I'm amazed at someone's work. And I look up the dialect coach afterwards. I'm like, Oh, that's great. They did such nice things.

Nick VinZant 32:15

Are there a lot of dialect coaches are there like, there aren't,

Audrey LeCrone 32:19

there aren't and sometimes they're not gonna be listed after in the credits as well. There are probably more now than there used to be there used to be like this core group of dialect coaches there the the OGs. And I was not part of that, unfortunately. But they they worked on every single movie. Now, there's more of us.

Nick VinZant 32:41

Is that because this is more popular, or this more people have kind of figured out like, oh, I can do this. Like, maybe more needed and maybe both are doing it.

Audrey LeCrone 32:53

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think again, with it being 2022. There is more cultural sensitivity. And so when a character is written to be from a certain place, they are going to probably invest in a dialect coach,

Nick VinZant 33:04

how many? Oh, how many different dialects? Have you taught people?

Audrey LeCrone 33:10

Oh, I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. Because my method is doing more research. I don't make a list of like, I teach this accident. This accent did this accent. i If anyone comes to me and says, Hey, can we learn this accent? I say? Maybe yes, possibly. But tell me more about what exactly you're wanting to do. And if you have any ideas about the dialect already are like voice models

Nick VinZant 33:39

favorite film you've ever worked on? Or

Audrey LeCrone 33:43

Nope. When I did Nope. That was not the most challenging film. But I had my own trailer in the desert with my own bathroom. And Daniel didn't have that many lines. So I was honestly I was like hanging out in my AC trailer by myself.

Nick VinZant 34:01

Just surfing the internet.

Audrey LeCrone 34:04

It was awesome. won't have the time the Internet didn't work. So it was like all right, what am I going to do with this? This is like, life. Catch. Yeah, it was it came at a particularly hard time in my life. It was such a gift from the universe. I just had time to read and digest big life issues. It was it was beautiful.

Nick VinZant 34:27

Now is this is this financially rewarding? The way that I usually ask people this is like are you closer to ramen noodles or mansions?

Audrey LeCrone 34:36

Huh? No, I don't have ramen noodles. No. So yes, it is financially rewarding. It may not be mansion inducing, but it's a very comfortable lifestyle and comfortable living.

Nick VinZant 34:54

Like I figured you'd be doing kind of well, but it sounds like you might be doing better than I thought. Ah, is that because there's just not that many people are like, No, this pays if you could do it.

Audrey LeCrone 35:05

Um, it's a specialty position. It's a, it's a very difficult job. Because you have to have a patient ear, like what I do is listen to one sentence over and over and over and over and over, break it down and then teach a celebrity who may not may or may not be in the mood to learn it. So it requires a great sensitivity to the subject matter and to the subject you're teaching.

Nick VinZant 35:32

How close to they get in the sense of like, I guess I'll Can I speak dramatically? Because I can't like find the right word. So like, How can I ask this question without potentially pissing somebody off? Right? Forgive me for the choice of words. Like, are you nitpicky? Or like, no, that's really not good enough? Like, look, I know you're trying to get to 100%. But this is only 99. Are you like, alright, you know, you got 40% of the way there. It's close enough.

Audrey LeCrone 36:00

I don't think that was really dramatic or offensive the way you asked that question to be honest. Good job. It depends on the client. So some people don't care that much. And some people do. I'm going to I mean, I'm not performing it. So I'm not in control. I will help them the best, am I the best of my ability, but if it's also impeding their ability to act, or if they're not an actor to run a meeting or something, then yeah, don't lose your job over it. It's, if they're an actor, we can redo it and voiceover like, do your acting job. Make sure it looks good, because it is a visual art form. And we can redo it later. We've done lots of voiceover some movies are completely voiceover. I've always

Nick VinZant 36:56

been fascinated by that. You can almost kind of tell a little bit like, oh, I can kind of tell not completely. Yeah, I'm actor you didn't know was it actually America? Like, oh, because I can think of some people were, for example. The guy from the wire, Dominic West, no idea that he was British. Is there anybody that jumps out at you like, Oh, why didn't they were gay. Like, I didn't even know that they weren't.

Audrey LeCrone 37:24

The last one. The last one was not an actor. And I didn't know Drake was Canadian. And I know Canadian Canadians don't really have that much of an accent difference. That's just what comes to mind. Did you know Drake was Canadian?

Nick VinZant 37:38

Get him out of here. Do you know Ryan Reynolds was Canadian, Canadian. I feel like it doesn't count. Right?

Audrey LeCrone 37:46

As American it is. But that was that's the first thing that

Nick VinZant 37:49

comes to unless they say like a or a boot. Then I Canadian is basically the United States. That's really all the questions that I have. Is there anything that you think that we masters like your Sunday night like, Ooh, you should know this about Hollywood dialect coaches.

Audrey LeCrone 38:07

I don't know. I really love what I do. It's it's such a cool job, I would imagine and also to listen to help people speak. It's amazing. It's I feel very, very fortunate.

Nick VinZant 38:22

It is fascinating, right? Like we have all of these differences in the cadence, patterns, the words, everything.

Audrey LeCrone 38:32

It's something to celebrate. And I think also in this world where everything is becoming a little bit more homogenous, just because we all have access to the same media. I think it's something to celebrate the different way we speak. And I live in New Orleans now the I was at the courthouse this morning for something and I went through the little metal detector and they were like spell your last name I was like LEC RT o n e and the sheriff was like you're not from here you have an accent Where are you from? And I was like, God that's awesome.

Nick VinZant 39:07

You notice it right away with people don't you can really notice quickly. Yeah, well,

Audrey LeCrone 39:12

because here it's all I was in Chalmette, Louisiana, which has a very specific yet accent they call it but to them, it's not an accent. That's the way they speak. So me as a northerner I come in, and they're like, Well, you're not from around here. You speak really? Clearly. Not not clearly to them. It's it's an accent.

Nick VinZant 39:30

Oh, I missed this one. What is your personal favorite accent?

Audrey LeCrone 39:34

Oh, probably some of them in Louisiana. In Louisiana here southern Louisiana. There's like a different accent every 10 miles. And it is so fun to listen to people speak.

Nick VinZant 39:46

That's true. It's, it's incredible. What's your least favorite accent?

Audrey LeCrone 39:52

As as a dialect coach when I listened to an accent I listened so intently that you almost start to fall in love with it. What ever it is so even if you have a perception beforehand of like, I don't really like this. By the end of listening to it, you're like, Wow, I love the way they're like, oh, oh, instead of Oh. So I'm, again kind of bright eyed, bushy tailed. I'm like, Oh, I love this. If someone if the subject matter is gross, or bad or ugly, then I think the tendency is to not like that accent. Right? So if that's true, there's a Southerner saying something racist and awful. You're like, oh, I don't like that. But it's more the content. You're not liking not the accent. That's

Nick VinZant 40:37

true. I guess if somebody asked me I feel like my least and most favorite are both Boston like, like, I like it, and I don't like it.

Audrey LeCrone 40:46

Yeah, what don't you like about it, though?

Nick VinZant 40:50

He that's, I don't know. It depends on the movie. It's weird. Like, I've liked the accent.

Audrey LeCrone 40:57

You know, like, because it's a bad guy playing with that's exactly

Nick VinZant 41:01

what it is. Actually, I can think of exactly what it is. I don't like one of the actors who played a Boston character. And I do like another actor that played the Boston character. And I like hearing him speak it but not hearing the other guy speaking. It's totally person. It's just the person.

Audrey LeCrone 41:16

Yeah, and that's why this accent work is so. So personal. And that's why I think it's really important to get it right. Because you are representing a whole city or a whole culture.

Nick VinZant 41:30

How can people get a hold of you? All that kind of stuff.

Audrey LeCrone 41:35

Call my mom. So I have a website. You can follow me on Instagram at American accent coaching. And then my website is AAC American accent coaching.