What happens after we die? Psychiatrist Dr. J. Kim Penberthy studies near-death experiences and after-death communications. We talk afterlife experiences, the psychology of death, and the latest science on what’s next. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Michaels.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy: 01:53
Pointless: 46:54
Top 5 Michaels:
Living Mindfully Across the Lifespan: Dr. J. Kim Penberthy's Latest Book
Interview with After-Death Researcher Dr. J. Kim Penberthy
Nick VinZant 0:11
Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the afterlife. And the best
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 0:19
Michael's, when you look at after people who report after death communications, it's universal. And it's most often seen and people who've had someone they love pass away within the year. For some of these we can look at some time sometimes information is past, the location of missing items or some information. What the research shows people fear most is the pain of dying, the process of dying,
Nick VinZant 0:53
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out if you're a new listener. Welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies what happens after we die? So our first guest studies one of if not the biggest question that we all face. What happens after we die? She researches near death experiences and after death communications, to find out what's real, what's not. And what all of this says about us. Because when you look at all of these different experiences, there is a commonality in it that we all share. This is after death researcher, Dr. J, Kim Penberthy. So kind of getting started off with the basics. How common would you say are after death or near death experiences for people
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 2:02
they are probably more common than people might realize. And you have to remember, we're talking about two different things, when we're talking about a near death experience. This is a very well defined concept that we have, that is specifically referring to an experience someone has when they die or nearly die, and the subsequent sort of experiences that they have and recall. And in an after death communication, this is just exactly what it sounds like this is having been contacted spontaneously by someone who has died in some way. And so when someone reports and after death communication, it is literally someone that they knew or had knowledge of who passed away. And now they perceive they are being contacted by this person.
Nick VinZant 3:03
If we were to put I'm a big numbers person, right and approximating 25% of people, 50% of people 75 Like what would you say is the reported number? And then what do you think is like okay, but I think actually this many people have this happen?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 3:22
Obviously with near death experiences. It's it's smaller, because it's constricted to people who have near death experiences who almost die. And of those people. It's it's a fairly small percentage who actually remember and can describe what happened to them when they died for after death communications. So in that area, we see when we ask people sort of go out and do random research and find out, you know, just asking them if they've had these experiences, it's it's all over the place, it can be between about 25% of the population up to 60%. So you have to remember, not everyone is going to endorse this, they might experience it, but not share with other people. And when we've done research explicitly asking people, if they've had any kind of communication like this, they will say yes, and share their story, and then disclose that they've never told anybody, certainly not a doctor or a psychologist. And you can imagine why they think that someone's going to think they're crazy or that they're making it up or hallucinating. So my hunch to answer the last part of your question is that people experienced this at higher rates than we then we probably know so I think in reality, it's it's the majority of people. That's my honest feeling. If you really ask things like people saying Well, I saw this Cardinal, and Mom always said, you know, she loved Cardinals and I feel I believe this Cardinal was mom coming back to check on me. If you include things like that, and after death communications, which we do, you know, you can begin, you start thinking about your own life, the people, you know, your relatives, your friends, many of them endorse experiences like this and don't think it's weird.
Nick VinZant 5:26
That's, that would be, you know, the question that would jump out at me. And I'll use an example from from my personal life. My mother passed, I go on this hike to kind of clear my head, long hike, I get up to the central point of the hike cloudy all the time, I get up to the top and the sun comes out. And I guess you could read that, depending on how you believe two ways, right? Like this is a sign my mother is wherever? Or like, it's just a complete coincidence? Like, how do you kind of separate between those two?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 5:59
You know, that's a really good question. And it can be tough. And a lot of it boils down to the interpretations and beliefs of the individual. So there might be someone who believes it was just pure coincidence, and thinks nothing of it. Oh, you know, this, the clouds burned off. It's that time of day. And this makes sense to me. And that's what they'll go with. And others, you know, again, it depends on the timing, it depends on the belief. May I say, Yes, you know, that's, that's my mother telling me she's here with me. And in some ways, you know, again, it does depend on what people report how they interpret it. As a clinical psychologist, which, which is what I am in my background, I'm way more interested in how it impacts people. Because the reality is, it could be both, you know, and we've often lost the sight of of, okay, you know, maybe it's ambiguous, maybe it's both, maybe, yeah, this, the clouds burned off and the sun came up, because time passed. And who knows, maybe it's some sort of communication from the other side to reassure you. And, to me, the important thing, is the impact it has on you. Does that make you feel better? Does it help you cope with your grief? Does it make you feel like you're not alone? Those are important things. And if it helps to do that, then, you know, I'm less worried about whether you can you call it a real after death communication or not.
Nick VinZant 7:44
That makes sense, right? Because I'm not a religious person. I'm not a spiritual person. But it does make me happy, in a way, right. And so I guess, kind of, but is there a, is there a, I just use the phrase dark side to that kind of thing, right? Like, okay, it makes somebody happy. So what leave them alone? But can this go negative where people obsess? Or it, it weighs down on them rather than lifting them up?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 8:12
Well, I mean, I think you can ask that of any kind of belief system. You know, you think about any structured religion, can it go sideways? Oh, yeah. You've seen that we've seen that. Yeah, it can be used against people, it can be manipulated. So yes, that's definitely a possibility. And that's, you know, that would be an interesting line of research to look at. We do know, that in the after death communication research, when we've explored that there are people who feel like they've been contacted and had experiences, and they were sort of, you know, not real positive for them. So it might have been sort of alarming or negative in some way with you know, their effect is impacted in a negative way. However, what we do find in the literature in the research is that for the majority of people, and I'm talking about 75% or higher, maybe 85%, even, it is genuinely a genuine dren. generally seen as a positive thing. So they feel that it is demonstrating to them that there is something beyond that someone is still connected to them sort of that continuation of the connection. And for many of them, they decrease their fear of death and dying, which can be very beneficial for folks. We also found in a recent study that looked at about almost 1000 people, that people who have after death communications Generally become more spiritual, not religious, necessarily. So we looked at that difference between religiosity, which is practicing in a more formal religion, whether or not you go to church or synagogue or something, versus spirituality, which was a little more, a little more personalized, if you will.
Nick VinZant 10:21
So your research is focused more on the idea that people have this, not necessarily trying to prove that these things are really exist or not. It's more the idea of like, this is a commonality that people have.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 10:36
Yes, because in my in my role as a clinical psychologist, you know, I'm not an astrophysicist. I'm not a theoretical physicist, I'm not, I am not that smart. I tell you what, so I work with people. And a lot of my work is with people who have very serious illness, I work with oncology patients, people who are really facing their own death, and many of them have significant fear of death and dying, this is very problematic. I've seen many very bad deaths, which are just heartbreaking, it's hard enough to work with someone who is actively dying, and then to work with someone who's dying and denying it or fighting it. Because of fear. So I look to this work as a way to help improve the quality of life for people as as one of the objectives so really, how it's the sort of so what question these happens, so what, you know, we can go the route of looking at the, the, the science of it, the physics of it, or the, you know, the theology of it, or we can look at what's the impact right here, right now, whether or not we know much more about these. So in some ways, you know, it's interesting to look at all of that, as a clinician with my clinician hat on, I'm really looking at the impact. How does this impact people? How does it make their lives better? How does it make their death? A better death, so to speak? So that's sort of where I'm at with the after death communication research?
Nick VinZant 12:21
Is there like people who report after death experiences near death experience after death communications? Do they fit into a kind of a category? Right? Like, are they? Is it mostly men, mostly women, mostly religious people, mostly spiritual people? Like do they ultimately kind of trend in a certain direction?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 12:39
Well, here's what's interesting when when you look at after people who report after death communications, it is global, there are people around the world that report this. So it is, it's universal. And we see it most commonly, obviously, in people who have someone who passed away fairly recently. So it's most often seen in people who've had someone they love passed away within the year, it is more common in women. There again, we don't really know if that's a true statistic, or if it's just that women tend to endorse these things more than men. In general, they sort of self report things like this more psychological components, emotions, that sort of thing. So the answer is really it it happens universally. And across time, I mean, you can find reports of these in you know, as far back to the Bible, and earlier Greek writings and things like that. So it seems to be something that humans have experienced since the beginning of humanity, you specialize
Nick VinZant 13:55
in after death communication. So an after death communication is text message, I'm assuming is not not a text message from Uncle Bob. Right. But
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 14:06
you know, um, so typically, the we think about the various categories and obviously, you can be contacted in different ways visually, what we might think of is an apparition or, like we were talking about the sun coming out or a cardinal, you know, something that's significant signifies the loved one who's passed away. It can be a voice hearing words, and that includes, you know, some people will get phone calls that are like sort of staticky or happen and they attribute it again, this is all what they attribute it to. This is my mother calling some feel a presence so they just feel the sense that someone's in that person's in the room with them. They smell aromas, you might smell their perfume. Touch, you can also feel that you know, the hand on the face or a hand on your shoulder. So all of these ways can be ways that we experienced and after death communication.
Nick VinZant 15:13
I think the thing that jumps out to you, right for skeptical people, they could just be like, Okay, it's just a missed phone call, right? Like, is that difficult from a research perspective to kind of be like, well, you know, what, maybe you like, I got a phone call from my mother after I've been drinking all night like, Well, maybe it's because you're drinking all night, right? Like, is it difficult to kind of? Do you have to? How do you take into account those things where that maybe jump out, like, well, maybe this was happening?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 15:50
Well, it's interesting, you bring this up, because we don't, you know, we don't typically have people knocking down our doors to tell us about these experiences. So you do have to consider the source, obviously. And many people are sort of hesitant and a little reluctant and take a little bit of feeling safe and being invited to share these things. So I think that's one thing to keep in mind. There's a bit of a hurdle to get over for these folks. And of course, you're right. There can be people who tell us these things, and we may think it's a different kind of attribution, you know, like, that seems more like a missed phone call to me. Again, I'm going to go back to what does this individual believe in? Why might it be important? And how could it be helpful. You also have to distinguish, you know, between people with true thought disorders. So there are people who have thought disorders, like people with schizophrenia, who have delusions or psychotic thoughts. And what we found in the research is that the people who report after death communications are not psychotic, they do not have thought disorders. So there is a big difference there. And we do look at that research. So we're talking about people who don't, they may be grieving, they might have some anxiety or other sort of symptoms, like many of us do. When we've lost someone, however, they don't have a thought disorder. So I think it is important to clarify that.
Nick VinZant 17:34
When you look at the I believe, if I looked at there was like 12 kinds of 12 main categories of after death communications, is there one or two that are much more prevalent than other ones?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 17:46
Yeah, I would say, you know, you, you can look at the research sort of varies depending on the sample that you look at. I think it's very common for people to sense a presence of someone. And I think part of that maybe, because it's sort of general enough that, you know, it's, it's, it seems more accessible. Maybe
Nick VinZant 18:10
it's both specific enough and vague enough, that kind of can categorize as anything, or like, yeah, you just kind of feel like somebody's there with you.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 18:19
Yeah. And we all know what that feels like, which is also interesting. So
Nick VinZant 18:26
is, is there any research, though, that would suggest that you know, what, like, this is just a brain coping mechanism?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 18:33
Yeah. And there are people who who argue that? I don't know, again, that's not my specific area of expertise. And I'm not very aware of any research that has said yes, this is where you know, where that happens in the brain. And that's what's going on. It's certainly a hypothesis more. What's more common is a hypothesis that these are just sort of wishes. And, as you sort of alluded to, like, I want to, I want to believe this. So then I imbue it with this attribution. I say that, yes, this is what it is. And again, that's sort of challenging to, to sort of tease apart well, then what does that mean? Is this real, is it not it's real to the individual person. One of the things we can do and this may be, what you're sort of trying to get at is for some of these, we can look at, sometimes information is past the location of missing items or some information. And if that is reported to us through this after death communication from that individual who had it, we could go back and then look at at verifying this information. So there are some cases of that where you look at the information and determine if it's true or not. And some of them have been shown to be valid. So at that point, you know, again, that's a little bit more proof. You still have naysayers who say, well, it could be luck it could be. So you could still argue against that as proof. However, we do know that we've seen those instances, it takes some information is passed,
Nick VinZant 20:22
it does seem like something that like no matter what you could pick holes apart, there's how did you kind of get into it? What made you focus on this area?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 20:32
Well, I'm, I've always been very open to, you know, all kinds of ideas. As a young person, I was very curious. And I had wonderful parents that really encouraged that. And, and I had, you know, a strong sense of science. My father was a surgeon, my mother, a nurse, and she probably would have been, I don't know, some, some mystic leader if she knew about that. She was very, into nature. And, and in sort of this open spirituality and growing up, I would ask them both things, because their, their, their, their answers. were so different. It was so fun. You know, I asked my dad, what is the purpose of life as a little kid, because I just had these ideas. Oh, you know, I wanted to find out. He said, Well, that's easy. And was like, wow, okay, great. I didn't expect that. He said, it's to reproduce. Because as a scientist, yeah. Right. Okay. And I asked my mom the same question separately. And she said, overhead is so easy. Again, I'm like, Yes. She said, It's love. And so I then asked them, well, what happens when you die? And my dad proceeded to say, again, this is easy, here you go, you're ready, starts to tell me all about how the system is shut down, and the decomposition of the body or six year old, and I asked my mom the same, and she said, Oh, that's easy. You reunite with love. It's eternal love. And so I grew up with these thoughts. And, and that they, they are compatible, that they're totally compatible. And so I went into psychology because I thought people were fascinating, I loved how we can hold multiple thoughts in our head. And, you know, in the creativity, we have the genius we have the kindness we have, as well as the darker side of that, and very fascinated in what impacts that how that develops, how it can change what you can do for people to help them and became a clinical psychologist. And I think it was also informed by experiences I had as a young person, and even in my 20s that's when I had an experience that really impacted me and made me realize that I don't have all the answers and there are things going on that I don't understand in and there may be may be pretty positive things. So if you'll indulge me I'll share my mother and I love the beach. I did not grow up at the beach but we always went to the Outer Banks of North Carolina. And would were there one summer was just my mother and I and I was probably in my late teens or early 20s I don't know why was just the two of us. And she went in for a swim we had been sort of laying in the sand and I just laid I had to towel over my face just to protect it and dozed off, I'm pretty sure and woke up to sort of a you know, the noise of a crowd on the beach and so got up on my elbows to look and I saw a big crowd at the water's edge. And I saw that the lifeguard and this other man were bringing my mother in from the ocean. And she looked okay, she was standing up and everything. So I I just felt like okay, I don't need to rush over there. There's plenty of people she looks fine. But it was curious to me I noticed that the the man the one not the lifeguard, the other man looked older and he was like in regular clothes, not beach clothes, like a short sleeve button down shirt and, and khaki pants and I didn't recognize them. And so then she came up to the to the blanket and lay down she said she was fine, don't worry. And so after we both lay down, we're both there with our eyes closed. And I said Well, Mom I'm, who was that other guy? Who was he? And she said, Oh, that was my grandfather. And to this day, I still get chills. She had grown up in a sort of a challenging home environment, and was raised primarily by her grandfather, who just adored her and really cherished her. And I never met him. I didn't even know what he looked like. But then, when we returned home, I happened. We never really talked about it again. I mean, it was just not a big deal to her. It was like, Well, that happened. Okay. And I just followed her cues.
Nick VinZant 25:44
Like, yeah, like, I mean, that's, that's what you do you know, that age, right? Yeah.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 25:51
When I came home, I, you know, start digging around. And sure enough, I found a picture of him. It was him. And I was like, oh, that's the man I saw. I couldn't believe it. So, again, I didn't go telling everybody, I just really sort of kept it here. And it opened up this part of me that was thinking, you know, there's so much more than we know, how can I explain that, especially in my science mind, you know, I'm in, I'm getting ready to go to college and, you know, study science and biology. And so, I've always, that's, that's really driven me great, a great deal. And in you, you know, is that an after death communication? Sort of? Is it a ghost? I guess, you know, I, I didn't call it that. I still don't I really think of it as some you know, we know that in in times of crisis, things like this can happen, our sense of our consciousness can become altered. I mean, you can think of this as sort of an altered state of consciousness, that I'm now accessing some other piece of reality, you know, where this is now sort of apparent to me or evident to me, in a way. So I guess I sort of conceptualized it like that, and kept it with me and have have thought more and more about it as I've gone into this work. And maybe it impacted me in going into this direction more than I realize. I'm not sure.
Nick VinZant 27:36
That's kind of my personal opinion about, I would say I'll use the word stuff like this, right, is that it doesn't matter if it's real or not, it's real to you. And it does. I mean, obviously, it's an incredibly powerful experience. Does it change people's lives? Would you say? Like,
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 27:53
like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so people, definitely, you know, and this includes things like near death experiences, and out of body experiences, which often come with near death experiences, I mean, we can have out of body experiences. Anytime we can do that through meditation, or some people sort of spontaneously do some people do in a time of crisis. All of these sort of the hypothesis is number one, they they do impact you, they change your outlook, they often people endorse it, they are more spiritual with all that. That means to them, maybe they're, they feel more connected to people, they feel like there is something bigger than themselves. They feel like there's a purpose. Many people experience a very intense positive aspects, some sort of some knowledge that everything is okay, that it's all the way it should be sort of this profound equanimity. That is obviously very, very helpful in living your life, when you feel connected, supported, that you're supposed to be here, that your life is moving the way it should. Those all help people feel much more safe, more connected, more productive. And also, interestingly, simultaneously reduce the fear of death. So I can be engaged in my life fully and really embrace it and also accept that that there is this other phase of it called death. And it's, it doesn't have to be terrifying.
Nick VinZant 29:37
Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I'm one of those people like I don't transition well, I just do it. Let's get right into one of the hard ones. What do you think we fear more death or not knowing what happens next, or if something happens next.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 29:58
So I Interestingly, for that question, it's a really good question, I'm going to add a third choice in there. What the research shows people fear most is the pain of dying. The process of dying. You know, think about it a prolonged, agonizing death. When we've done research, this is the thing that most people fear the most.
Nick VinZant 30:25
That is the exact opposite of what I want. My dream is to be eaten by a bear. I want to experience I want to experience the whole thing. Like every second of it.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 30:36
I have never heard anyone say that. That's, that's impressive. I don't I don't know what to make with that, though.
Nick VinZant 30:45
I want to know what it's like, right? It's the last thing you were like me, and that was pretty bad. But this is the way I've always thought about it. Like, if everybody's in the afterlife, and they're all sitting around the table, like I went in my sleep, I had this I had that. I got eaten by bear. That's the person like, that's a good story. Okay, there's my personal thing is that, um, do you think like, Okay, if there is an afterlife, would it then make our lives less valuable?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 31:13
Well, in, you know, I think afterlife is sort of an interesting term. different belief systems, think of it differently. So, you know, yes, sort of Christians, sort of the Abrahamic religions, some of them have this sort of sense of an afterlife, not all of them, but that, you know, we go to heaven, or we do something, there's another phase. And there's also a sense of, Well, what if this is a sort of a reconnection with something larger? So we sort of, you know, our individual selves, we're so used to thinking of that in our culture, but that we're really just part of this larger thing. And a little piece has come into this body for this period of time, and then reunites with this larger consciousness. There's a way of looking at that, as well. Um, I think it's an interesting question, you know, does it make this life less? What was the word valuable, valuable,
Nick VinZant 32:18
or pressing or whatever, right? This, I'll use the word be overly dramatic, like, cheapen this life, like, alright, well, I'm just doing this until I do this thing.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 32:29
And I think there is a risk for for that, you know, you do see people and again, certain very extreme religions where this life is all about just getting to the next. And those are often in in sort of these religions where, where we are sort of waiting for the next big thing, so to speak, you know, and there can be a risk of that. That's where you get people who are willing to, you know, commit suicide and do things to move on to that next level. So I think that's more of a risk, and then thinking about this as sort of a cheapened version. Because, again, it's interesting that many, if you think about it, many people that that have these experiences, actually value this life more. So the research would seem to contradict that. Even though it is a risk, you know, that we could sort of diminish this life and think of this as less important. Interestingly, the research would show people who have near death experiences who have after death communications or even out of body experiences, find that they value this life more that this is the you know, that they have more positive aspect. And part of it is that we suspect is that they understand some sort of shift happens in their consciousness that they understand they're not alone, they are connected, that, that they're already that way. You know,
Nick VinZant 33:57
yeah, I could see more, I could see where people who are more spiritual more nature re would feel that way more, right. Because the idea like if you're super into nature, you know, that the trees are connected to the grass to the animals. Right, and
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 34:15
a lot of collective societies. Also that, you know, that I think we're so used to thinking of being independent of our own, you know, in America, it's all about the individual and our rights and our and there's nothing wrong with that, except there are cultures we forget where it is all about the collective. And where people's minds just much more naturally go to that, that it's we not me. And that's a we as in my community, my society, my country, but this is another level of we, as in, you know, all of consciousness, all of creation.
Nick VinZant 34:55
That's the one thing that I want to happen when I die. I just want somebody to be like, Hey, you This is what happens. Like, this isn't here, you know, like, this is what happens. They should give you like a pamphlet. I feel like you should get a brochure explaining how this all works.
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 35:10
I agree. I just hope that you know, being eaten by a bear doesn't mean you become the bear that gets to heaven. I don't know, I wondered about that. If you're zoomed by another creature? Do you go as the bear? Or do you go as Nick? That
Nick VinZant 35:27
is a good question. Either way, though, I feel okay with it. Right? Like, I could be half bear half person would make you know, guy, you could have some that would be an interesting time. Yeah, that would be interesting to think about, like all the possibilities, like what could happen. The other thing that I would like to happen is like somebody to say like, you know, what, if you would have made this decision here, this is where you would have been, like a life review. If you would have mowed the lawn at one o'clock instead of 12 o'clock, you would have won the lottery that day? Like what? Those things? Yes. So cool. Um, do you personally believe in an afterlife?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 36:12
I mean, you know, I have had, I have had experiences that have allowed me to perceive that there is more out there than we currently think about in our modern day science. I would say that, you know, modern day science is pretty materialistic, where you're in your body, your brain is what produces all the stuff. And then when your brain dies, and your body dies, you're gone. I don't know if I buy that. I will say that. What what is the alternative? I'm still exploring, I think there are other possibilities. And that, to some extent, we can research them. I'm very interested in how we can research what these beliefs mean to people and how they impact the quality of their life, how they treat other people, how they treat the earth, that sort of thing. So for me, I guess it's less important to find the ultimate answer. And maybe more important to think about, well, what are the implications here and now, for our world? And for individuals?
Nick VinZant 37:31
Do you think, Okay, what do you think would impact the world more? If we found out absolutely with like, 100% proof that yes, there is or 100% proof that No, there isn't?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 37:44
I think, first of all, not everyone's going to believe everything. But if we go hypothetically, personally, I think it would be far more tragic to put out there, that that idea that this is all it is that it were just material. And when we die, that's it. We had no sort of consequence. We're not connected to anything larger, there was really no meaning in our life. I think that would be really hard. I think it would probably have a much more negative impact.
Nick VinZant 38:17
Yeah, I feel like we would start destroying the world. Really? Yeah. Don't accidentally prove it the other way. Yeah, that's one of those things like we like each probably keep that to yourself. If you accidentally discovered that, like, let's just go ahead and not put that out there was like, How do other How do you? You know, other researchers view it? Is it like, if you go to the convention, are they kind of like, oh, boy, here comes the near death people? Are they like, how do they view? How do they view that research?
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 38:54
Well, I have not been shunned. I will tell you that. So that's number one. There are a couple of answers to that. So yes, I do I do mainstream research as well, what we would call mainstream research. Coming up through my career, I did a lot of research in chronic depression and addiction. And then working, of course, with oncology patients, and in really started doing meditation research early on when it was fringe, and have seen that become more mainstream. And yes, sometimes she would have the people eye rolling or whatever. The the key really is to do very good science, you know, do good research. Make a quality so that people can look at the research and say yes, I see how you did this. This is standard operating procedure type of thing. And then it's it's more difficult for people to dispute. The other thing is, you know, as more people do this research and I'm invested in training people and spreading the word, then then becomes validated. So more people in different labs are doing it and finding out answers. And we also have developed conferences that are, you know, like many things, you develop specialty conferences. So when it was not always well received in maybe other conference centers, you could go to one that focused on after death studies or palliative care, things like that, where you're looking at people who run into this all the time, who literally see this in their work. And it's important to them. So I think that as we do more, and do quality research, it, it may, it may go the way of meditation where it becomes more and more mainstream, and people see the value. Not so much, you know, with with meditation, it's, it's, it was really developed from some of the ancient work, not to be so much like, here's a way of life, here's the spiritual path, you have to take, like Buddhism or something. It was It was developed in a way to say, how can we help people. And that may be part of why it became accepted, because people did quality research and saw the positive impact, initially, really working with chronic pain patients and, and people like that, where there was nothing else to help. So so we may see this developing the similar way, how can we help people with severe fear of death and dying? Having some exposure to thoughts about you know, after death, communication, or out of body experiences, can help reduce that we know from the research, so we may see it continue to grow.
Nick VinZant 41:53
It does seem like the kind of thing that I could see somebody's like, the most skeptical person in the world at the same time being like, this is the absolute blah, blah, blah, and then pulling you aside and being like, hey, this thing happened to me the other day, that does
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 42:05
happen. So people have disclosed their own experiences and how profoundly impacted them, they still usually report that they can't come public with it because of the fear of, you know, a stigma attached to it. Or they're early in their career, and they need to, you know, build up their career before they move into that area. So, yeah,
Nick VinZant 42:35
this would be the last question that we got, what after death communication or near death experience stands out to you the most besides your own? Obviously,
Dr. J. Kim Penberthy 42:45
there are so many there are so many. One really amazing one to me, was interesting, because it was the first one I heard where it was, it was a sort of a more harsh version, that we often think of loving and supportive, and, you know, very touching type of encounters. And this was a gentleman who was struggling with alcohol addiction. And we'd been working a long time, and he was not making much progress. And I was I had taught him meditation. And, you know, early on, when I was doing the meditation work, a lot of these experiences came from people learning to meditate and practicing their meditation. And then they would report some of these unusual experiences. He had an, an, what he considered he called it some sort of communication from someone that he felt connected to, but he he didn't really know who they were, but he felt a sense that they were connected. And it was this voice, this very harsh, female voice, who was telling him to get his shit together, and stop being you know, a baby and just get on board and he needed to quit drinking or he was going to die. So it was clearly not him. It was not his own thoughts. He said, No, it's I've had those thoughts. I know that stuff. This was someone else coming to me and I heard them playing his day. This is what they told me. Now he was not psychotic, he did not have a thought disorder. He was not actively drinking excessively, where he would have had some sort of delusion. He changed overnight. Because he said that that that communication knew him got him and that it resonated with him and I you know, I've not heard many stories like that, where someone comes back and scold you so harshly and says pretty harsh things to you. And you attribute it to someone that that is invested in you but you don't know them. So that was that was a little odd and bizarre. What I was most impressed With was the impact. I mean, it worked. And I can tell you, I swear, we had worked for so long to help him reduce his intake, and he just quit just right. And didn't pick it up again, the last communication I had with him, he was still not drinking. And, you know, so what was that? I may never know. It was important to him, it came through His act of work on, on his meditation on altering his consciousness on sort of expanding, and I suspect it was some sort of contact with some awareness. Maybe that was within him maybe from external. And it was just some point he had to get to, and maybe some, some point he had to get to in his work with me, in addition to some opening up with some, maybe some increased awareness or availability to accept this. And we see sort of similar things with psychedelic drugs, you know, not to get too off topic. But this idea of, of expanding this consciousness having some sort of experience where it's almost like everything shifts, and it can do so really quickly. Because it's like some light bulb going off, like, Ah, now I get it. And what that is for each person is a little bit different. It is, however, really profoundly focused on on connection on something larger than themselves some insight into, I'm not alone. And this all has meaning.