Swordsmith Matt Stagmer

As a swordsmith Matt Stagmer is unique. He’s one of only a handful of people who can still make a sword from scratch. It’s a skill he’s used to make everything from historical replicas and high-end customs to fictional blades right out of The Witcher and The Legend of Zelda. We talk swordmaking, blacksmithing and the funnest things to cut. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Sharp Things.

Matt Stagmer: 01:28ish

Pointless: 40:20ish

Top 5: 58:08ish

https://www.youtube.com/c/ThatWorks (Matt Stagmer - That Works YouTube Channel)

https://www.instagram.com/mattstagmer (Matt Stagmer Instagram)

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Matt Stagmer Interview

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode swords and the best sharp things,

Matt Stagmer 0:19

I'm focusing on the higher end pieces so I only make half a dozen maybe a dozen if I'm making a lot swords a year, you got to be part artists and part athlete you really do you have to condition yourself this business as a business is is is grueling, but you got to continue to develop everything I would say so far The Witcher sword that we made was very, very difficult. We made it out of meteorite.

Nick VinZant 0:45

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest has been making swords for 20 plus years. And he can do something that very few other people can do make steel from scratch. And when he makes swords, he's not just making really high end detailed swords. He's making historical swords, and even ones from fiction, like the Zelda sword or the Witcher sword or an 11 foot long sword used by Optimus Prime. This is Sword Maker, Matt Stagner. How hard is it to make a sore

Matt Stagmer 1:30

I would say for the general person, it's almost impossible. Having 25 years of experience almost 24 and a half. I can make a generic sword pretty quickly. And it's not terribly difficult. However, just like any other art form, swords can be simple or they can be very elaborate and the elaborate ones to take can take a year. So there's a lot of work and a lot of skill to develop to get there.

Nick VinZant 1:57

Now was it always swords for you? Or did you kind of start out making something else and then go into for

Matt Stagmer 2:03

me, I never thought about being a Sword Maker. However, my brother's 19 years older than me. So when I needed a job, he was already making swords and armor on a very elementary level. They weren't nice at all. But he had a business established and I was already doing architecture and engineering and high school and like just about every artistic thing you could do. So I was already like developing those kind of skills you would need and I just kind of wanted a generic job when I was 15. And I started working with him. I always thought that would be just kind of a side gig. But for me, it just stuck. I tried a bunch of different things I tried a plus net plus, I tried the whole network engineering thing and just always kind of came back that nothing can hold my interest like making swords because it's it really has all kinds of different artistic avenues in it. So it really was the right route for me than I ended up sticking with it kind of fought it until maybe my mid 20s Till I really kind of embrace that that was what my life was going to be. But yeah, that's how I got started.

Nick VinZant 3:12

Why is it so difficult to make them? Is it difficult because like, alright, this is advanced physics, or is it difficult? Like you've it's just step after step after step?

Matt Stagmer 3:23

Well, I mean, there's like I said, There's levels so like when I first started we were basically taking a bar of steel and just on grinders grinding the shape, there wasn't really any forging done no hot work per se until you heat treat the blade. But now where I'm at now I forge every single blade I even tried to make my own steel from time to time I certainly develop patterns in Damascus. There's all kinds of if you imagine mosaic tiles, you can literally mosaic steels different Steel's together and make elaborate patterns within the blade itself before you even get to grinding. So there's a it really is one of those crafts, especially if you break it down into regional cultures, like if you just study Japanese katanas or if you just study European swords, like every single one of those disciplines is a lifelong journey to learn those disciplines. So you never really finished learning how to make a sword I know how to make some swords very well, pretty fast and efficient. And other ones. You know, I'm just learning and you're a constant student of the craft if you're doing it right. Basically until you stop

Nick VinZant 4:31

when you say like I can make that pretty fast like how long does it take you to make one quickly on average the longest it's taken you

Matt Stagmer 4:39

the reason I say that is because like I'm kind of considered to be one of the guys that goes the fastest. I've just I've made probably well over 100,000 swords in my time. Now a lot of those are very simple stage combat stuff you might see at a Renaissance Festival the jousters using they are not sharp there. are just kind of made to look sharp, and be tough in a stage presence so they can climb together not break, you have to make them tough. So those are a lot quicker than say, if I was making a high end, medieval reproduction where it was sharp and the edge had to be perfectly aligned, and all of that kind of stuff. So for me, back when I was doing those production swords, I could make about 10 a day. Now, that's what the team around me as well. So I'm not doing everything. So if I did do it myself, still, you know, multiple a day. Now I'm slow down, which has been a hard thing. So like I said, I've been making sores for almost 25 years. In my later part of my career now where I'm basically working on my own. I'm focusing on the higher end pieces, so I only make half a dozen, maybe a dozen if I'm making a lot swords a year, you can make them fast, you can make them slow, definitely somewhere in the middle is probably where the affordable pieces come from. But right now trying to focus on the nicer pieces.

Nick VinZant 6:05

Is making a sword inherently more difficult than making a knife or is it just the sword is harder? Because it's bigger?

Matt Stagmer 6:11

That's a good question. And if you asked, most people go from making knives to then making larger and larger pieces. So they're knife makers, and then they'd like might try a sword or two in their career. Or maybe they just embrace the sword thing. And they would say swords are much harder, I would say, the knives at the level of standard that I'm trying to make them now which is like perfection is much much harder than making a sword. So with a sword you're working from, let's just say medieval swords, you're working from a medieval sword standard. And if you look at the fit and finish that was made back then they're all made by hand, there was no electrical computer controlled milling machines or, or routers or anything like that making them they're all made by hand. And there's imperfections which actually, to me are very pleasant to the eye. Because it shows the Craftsman it shows the fingerprints of the craftsmen in the whole piece. So they'll fit in finish of the swords is not as high as a modern knife where everything is expected to be perfect and look like a robot made it. So to me, I think modern modern knife making not reproduction knife making but modern knife making to me at this point is much harder than making swords. Really, but most people would say just the sheer size of a sword is what makes it difficult for me. I'm just bred and just raised in that. So like the size doesn't scare me. It's more of the minut details that are what I'm trying to learn.

Nick VinZant 7:48

Is it harder to do kind of like the big things? Or the little tiny things in the sense that like, is it to make the whole blade or like man, it's really hard to just make this little cut at the

Matt Stagmer 7:59

top. So yeah, so we get so I run a YouTube channel, where we make everything from giant like video game swords, to making very historical smaller reproductions of something because people always think of like conium or swords are big and heavy. But the realistic sword is actually quite like under 300 under three pounds total. So a sword, a medieval sword is very light. But we get asked all the time, what was the hardest build you've ever done on YouTube channel. And sure, like something like Optimus Prime's giant sword that we made huge, it's like, you know, 11 feet tall, would be considered something that was very difficult just because of its sheer size and having to maneuver around and grind shape. But for me, the historical, small, highly detailed, sometimes the Japanese pieces, those are truly where you, you're not just physically overwhelmed, you actually have to have develop the skill and the eye for those minut details. So I would say the minut details are much more difficult to achieve in sword making than say, just grand scale.

Nick VinZant 9:06

So, you know, in kind of the 10,000 foot view to use corporate language, which I which I just cringed a little bit at hearing me say that, but like, people can see this on your YouTube channel, but in general, like how do you make a sword? What's kind of the process?

Matt Stagmer 9:23

So the way I go about making swords these days? First I'm going to decide whether or not this is going to be a Damascus sword. Let's just take that. As an example. Damascus sword is a layered sword, often referred to as pattern welded. So we're talking. No, not at all the viewers can see me but you have one layer of steel, another layer of steel and we're like literally piling it up. And you forge build those into one. And by the time you get a blade out, depending on how you manipulate those levels, those layers, you get a beautiful pattern. I start by selecting what Steel's I'm going to use. Now you want to use something that's going to to different kinds of steel, so they show different colorization in the end, forge weld those together. So if I start with say 20 layers in that initial stack, I got to decide how many layers you want in a sword. Now you hear like, in books and novels, a million layer blade or the blade had been folded a million times what they mean is increasing that layer by literally drawing it out, folding in on itself. So now 40 layers, draw it out folding it ourselves, now I have 80, draw it out. Now I want the 60

Nick VinZant 10:30

multiplying it, it's not like you got to

Matt Stagmer 10:33

decide three, right. So back in the day, when they were making their own Steel's from literally iron ore, they had to fold just to get the impurities out. So they wouldn't say I'm going to make a 300 layer blade, they would keep folding that material until all the all the impurities were gone, and they had a nice solid chunk of steel, and then they would make their blade. For me as a modern maker, I'd have to decide on the look that I want. Because modern Steel's are obviously much better than what you can make from dirt. So for me, I decide to layer count, forge forge that initial billet folded as many times as I want, then I'm forging the sword, then you rough grind the sword, then you heat treat, this is all just the blade, then you heat treat, which means I'm just gonna give a very generic definition. But you would heat the blade up till basically a red hot color and quench it in either water or oil and that fast cooling of the steel, the Superfast cooling makes your blade very, very tough very hard. You then actually have to heat it up very slowly to a lower level like 400 degrees. Like that's what your average kitchen oven reaches to give you context to then take it from that super brittle hard back to a toughness then you have a hardened blade and then from there all the finishing work all the garniture forging or grinding all your you know your guard your pommel, which is the counterbalance, making your handle out of wood. Deciding how you're going to finish the handle whether you're going to cover in leather, cover and Cord Cover and wire, there's so many options. And that's just kind of working from a medieval, you know, like if you picture a medieval knight in your head. That's how you'd make that style of swords. That's just a very brief overview of how you would do it. But there's many, many steps.

Nick VinZant 12:25

What determines if something is a good sword? Is it just the steel itself and how many times it's been folded is the edge like?

Matt Stagmer 12:32

Well, that would be what its intended uses what the intended buyer or person that it's made for. A lot of modern sword makers these days are selling to Hema practitioners, which are historical, European Martial artists who take manuscripts of how the knights and people back in the medieval time actually fought. And they do their very best to learn that craft as if they were in the shoes of someone back then. So if you're making something for them, they need it light. They need it sharp, they needed as close historically accurate as possible. And they needed to not break. So all of those things are very, very important. If I'm selling to, say Elon Musk, or somebody like that, who wants the most elaborate, beautiful sword to literally hang in a lobby and say, wow, look what I got, or any art collector, perhaps the most important to them is how visually impressive it is. So really, there's so many different things that literally when somebody contacts me and says Hey, will you make me a sword I don't take that many commissions anymore. Kind of make what I want and and sell it but it's a long conversation to figure out exactly what their intended use is so I can get the piece in their hand. That will make them the happiest Yeah, so that's a long answer to a short question. But yeah, there's

Nick VinZant 14:03

when you're when you talk about folding the sword we're talking about one same piece of steel, not like an Oreo cookie where I got like this piece Yeah, and actually on it,

Matt Stagmer 14:14

it is kind of like an Oreo cookie. So the reason that you would make Damascus in the modern world Damascus or pattern world steel, however you want to refer to it in the modern world is literally for beauty. So hot nickel is nickel is a very shiny metal, right. So if you have one of your metals has high nickel in it, that's going to be very bright in the end. And if you take something with very low nickel, it's going to etch very dark color. So by the time you make this pattern like Oreo cookie, many many many Oreo cookies on top and then you smash it to a blade and you lay it out you have almost like a topographical map. When you etch it, etching meaning you put it into an asset of some sort, and then it etches both of those materials differently. So you have like a black and white look to your blade. With all kinds of however you manipulate the pattern, there's a million ways to do it. It's hard to explain non technical but yeah, so yes, you are using two different metals to start with in modern making.

Nick VinZant 15:20

Oh, and then So you combine the two metals, and then you start the folding process. Sure. Okay. Are we? Are we better at this now than we used to be?

Matt Stagmer 15:31

Ah, well, that's also a hard question to answer. So if you want to it took more skill to refine raw materials into a sword took way more knowledge and skill than buying my steel like I do from a steel manufacturer. And they give it to me and I have detailed scientific specs of everything, how much carbon? How much Chrome, how much molybdenum? Every kind of element that's in that steel, I have a did I have a readout on a big sheet of paper of everything that's in there, they didn't have that. So they needed just to be able to get to the point to make a bar that's tough enough to make a sword. They had to know how to refine it. Now when I'm saying refining it to get the the flaws out. It's more than that. So we're using modern propane forges that blow oxygen and propane in and ignite in a very calculated way. And we know how we know what's going on in there. Scientifically, there's certain amount of h2o, oxygen, propane, everything we know what's going on. They're using charcoal and coal to forge their stuff. And so they're actually adding carbon as they're working, they have to know what temperatures they have to know a lot more than just that knowledge before we're even talking about the skill to sculpt the steel itself is much more than the average knife or Sword Maker has these days. Now what's really neat what's been going on in say the last, I'd say 10 years in the sword making community not so much the knife making but sword making community is we are getting back to making our own Steel's and seeing historical manuscripts of how they made the smelters, and trying to literally start from dirt and create our own steels. It's something that the Japanese culture never let go of, they've always kept that tradition from, you know, 1000 years ago till now they have sword makers, and you're only allowed to be a Sword Maker. If you do it right. In Japan, there are no bad sword makers, Japan, but in the European context, or, you know, the Western world, if you will, we don't have that continuous culture of making swords for obvious reasons, because they pretty much became extinct. So we're trying to as sword makers, there's a lot of people getting into how to make the steel how to work the steel and how to do it, like they close as close as possible to how maybe they did it. And that's been a fun journey. I kind of dabbled in myself, as well as along with my partner, Ilya, he really is into it. And yeah, it's hard to say like, are they gonna make if you want to stack up a the average medieval Sword Maker versus me or the average Sword Maker today, and put those swords together? And like, test them against each other? I'd say the source of today, we'll destroy them. But if we're talking about pure talent, I mean, it took a lot more work knowledge and skill to do it back then than it does today. For sure.

Nick VinZant 18:27

Can you make it from scratch? Like, I'll give you dirt and rocks? And you could all right.

Matt Stagmer 18:31

I mean, it has to be the certain kind. Right? But yes, yeah, I have. And there's videos of us doing it. I actually just demonstrated up in New York last year, how to do how to do that smelting in front of a big audience at the Maker Camp, it's a really cool, get together of all kinds of different makers. We did a whole demonstration front of a crowd of how to smell your own steel from literally like, black sand that like if you walk along the beach, you ever seen those black lines? Yeah, that's iron. Literally, somebody collected that with a magnet. And we made that into steel, which we haven't made into a sword yet, but we made the steel.

Nick VinZant 19:12

How many people like just in the United States, for example, like how many people know how to do this still? I guess. Are we talking hundreds? 1000s 10s of 1000s?

Matt Stagmer 19:21

No, no, maybe? Maybe 20. And, like, we're talking about making your own steel of making a piece? Yeah, I'd say there's, I mean, 10 years ago, there were like four. And now there's maybe you know, 20? Maybe a few more than that. But not I mean, a lot of people do it wants to say they did it. That doesn't mean they did it. Right. And did it enough right to really, to really learn it. But there's not that many. There really isn't

Nick VinZant 19:51

me how many just even sword makers in general.

Matt Stagmer 19:55

I mean, I guess there's it depends on what level we're talking about. You're talking about they do it for a living or they have made Sword. There's there's a really cool network of teaching and classes now in the blacksmithing, and blade smithing world where you can go and take a week long course. And you can go home with a sword with very little experience at all, where they'll teach you how to do it. And if you're struggling, they'll help you. And that's a really cool thing you can do. So if you're really into and you want to do it, it's kind of like, I encourage you to go into it with a little bit of knowledge and metal, but if you don't have any, there's still places you can learn how to do it. I'd say people making a living, making swords. It's under 100 For sure. Companies that like do it under a dozen,

Nick VinZant 20:44

but the companies they're just mass producing it right? There's not somebody with a hammer by No, no,

Matt Stagmer 20:49

I mean, both of that, that I've seen below, but a lot of them are using modern, you know, equipment to do it. Like there's a company called Albion who makes about $3,000.02 to $3,000 swords and they're all Mater made, but they're doing it right and really getting the the end result is very museum ask now, how

Nick VinZant 21:07

much will you sell one of your swords for?

Matt Stagmer 21:09

Um, you know, I'm kind of still pretty new to this higher end stuff. But I'd say it's a really basic Ford sword for me is still going to be several $1,000.02 to $3,000. The most expensive piece I've ever sold was about 12,000. My partner just sold one for 40,000. Wow, I say partner. I mean, in my business, Ilya, he's a he's from Russia. He's a good friend of mine, we work together a bomber, I can sort a bunch. And now we've made our own business called that works, where we kind of still are two very separate entities where he has his stuff, and I have my stuff. But we get together and make videos, you know, at least one a month of making stuff together where we're doing projects together for the most part, and he makes much higher and stuff he's learned. He's got we just went down two different paths. He's more into the Yeah, the hand engraving stuff. So you see, like all the surfaces carved very elaborate pieces. And those pieces can go from 40,000 they can be you know, sky's the limit with that because the value is kind of in the beholder. So he's gotten into some higher end art exhibitions where it's more of an auction. So you kind of like set your, your minimum just like if you were selling something on eBay, and the buyers get to bid it out. And you know, you might be like to yourself say this is worth 10,000 But maybe a medieval art collector or somebody who has a Van Gogh in their mansion wants a sword hanging next to it, they might pay 150 grand for a sword so I mean, it really is subjective.

Nick VinZant 22:48

You ever wonder though somebody pays like 40,000 for a sword, they're just like swinging it around at home.

Matt Stagmer 22:54

And you know, they're gonna pay them I mean, honestly the piece that he sold that was about seven months often on not like continuous but almost seven months continuous work of high end work that he's spent a lifetime learning how to do. So it's not something I could teach someone to make.

Nick VinZant 23:13

Does it take a pretty good toll on your body? Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt Stagmer 23:17

So I went from doing the production sword stuff where I was literally at a sword grinder for eight hours a day. That's all I did. I just grabbed blades that's pretty much all I did. I didn't forge much back then. That forging was kind of a luxury I would take that would be my easy day off forging, grinding big swords. My elbows, my hands, my shoulders, everything you could imagine just you know, I'm not only 39 years old, but I've had like tendinitis, I've had like, years of pain in my in my joints. Yeah, kids, it's tough. It just is. And you if you do things properly, and you condition yourself, you gotta you gotta be part artists and part athlete you really do you have to condition yourself. A lot of people like say if you watch forging fire, if you see like fantasy movies, you think of the blacksmith being this big fat guy with a big beard. Now I got the big beard and I'm not exactly the skinniest guy. But that snot really the case somebody who's going to do this for a living is going to have to condition itself doesn't mean you're going to have a six pack abs but you are going to have shoulders that have something to them, you're going to have forearms that you know that have some some muscle and you have to treat it that way you and you have to do things kind of insets like you have to take a break. Let your muscles cool down, let the lactic acid get out. And literally just like a workout, like if you do it non stop and don't take a break. You'll deteriorate just like if somebody stay in the gym doing the same workout all day. Like, just can't do it. Now is

Nick VinZant 24:53

that because like you've got to do this thing so many times or because you just gotta like fold max effort swing, wait a minute full like is it you got to hit it that hard or you got to hit it that many times?

Matt Stagmer 25:08

Both. So like, say, like I said, I have experience of being somebody who made tons of pieces and then making Yeah, my time or higher in pieces. So when you're in sword production, yeah, it's just the repetition. It's literally like reps. Like, if you're working out for the higher end stuff, you still want to do it proficient, especially when we're making videos of a lot of this stuff. So we don't want to just put out the general information to people who don't understand there's a lot of people really understand what we're doing, and actually are trying to learn the craft that watch our videos. So we need to show them the proper techniques, and really propel the craft in the proper manner, as much as we possibly can. So, you know, some of the shortcuts you don't take in those videos, you know, we're we have power hammers, big machines that boom, boom, boom, that kind of replicate the swinging of the hammer. And we use a lot of power hammers in our videos, but at the same time, we still want to show you how to do it by hand. So, you know, it's a lot of work just is. It's fun, don't get me wrong, I have a great time. I really do. I enjoy what I'd done. My basically my entire life. And I highly recommend this as a hobby to anybody who wants to grab a hobby blacksmithing bladesmithing is a great hobby. A lot of people would like I've done TV shows, like with Danny Trejo was my co host, or I guess I was his co host, I should say that way. I've been on TV doing this craft, and I still highly recommend people to do this as a hobby and not a job. It's very difficult to do it as a job and defined. You have to be everything. You have to be like a social media genius, because you got to market yourself. This business as a business is is is grueling, but you got to continue to develop everything.

Nick VinZant 26:59

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes, I am. What sword was the hardest for you to make?

Matt Stagmer 27:05

So kind of to harken back to what we said before, there's two levels of difficulty that I like to answer that question with one. And sometimes it's just the sheer size of something like the Optimus Prime sword, which had like over 700, and some pieces to put together to make a sword. And it was just gigantic. So that's very, very difficult. And then there's other things like the Japanese pieces that have very high level of detail. So for me, I would say so far, The Witcher sword that we made was very, very difficult. We made it out of meteorite forged, it had to grind it put tons of detail, there's gem Senate silver work gold work, I'd say the more detailed stuff is definitely the most difficult.

Nick VinZant 27:47

Is there a culture that like looking back like oh, they probably made the best swords.

Matt Stagmer 27:52

That's gonna be an ongoing, ongoing debate that no matter what answer I give you is going to be difficult. Now, I will straight up tell you that I haven't really dove into the Japanese blades, specifically, because I know when I do, it's going to eat up eight years of my life. But the Japanese culture definitely refined the craft as an art, more so than any other culture. Some people will say their sword blades weren't as good. Some people will say their swords were, like, just way better 10 fold better than a medieval sword, I would say that functionality is just different. They weren't it's like comparing an AR 15 and ak 47 They both seem to do the job pretty well. And they're very, very different. So I would say as a generic answer as an artist, I would say the Japanese culture

Nick VinZant 28:43

but they weren't necessarily the most useful when you look kind of back on it just different

Matt Stagmer 28:48

beasts, you know, they didn't have knights in shining armor, their their, their armor and stuff was usually made out of leather out of bamboo, they weren't really going up against full plated knights if you would. So that weapon evolved differently. That's a that's an island culture. So that's kind of think of it as another planet, that sword sword at that time yet sword was made the way it was, you know, 1000 years ago, and that sort of pretty much, I mean, little minut changes, but pretty much stayed the same piece and didn't evolve then if you take medieval weaponry, we go from one handed swords all the way up to like if you see three musketeers fencing style sorts because the evolution was you know, no armor, then you had to make a sword that went up against armor, then it went back to no armor and firearms. So the sword was kind of more of your secondary thing. You'd have a firearm first, then you'd have a very fancy, elaborate sword that was a status symbol and all of that. So in the Western world, the sword evolved very much differently than saying Japan, which may be some of the reason why katanas In the Japanese culture developed such a high rich art form because it was continuous. And it was the same for, you know, very hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years and continues to be so. So they really got a chance to perfect. That kind of singular item where in Europe every 50 years, they were changing completely the weaponry they were using.

Nick VinZant 30:25

Now looking at it, like what would you say is your favorite historical sword?

Matt Stagmer 30:30

I, I've always said the Gladius, which is the Roman short sword. It's kind of my favorites, a very wide kind of leaf blade sword. But, I mean, it changes all the time. I love the beautiful hand and a half which is like, if you see Lord of the Rings, they have long sword with two handed grips. It's kind of like there's a beauty in that. I think that's kind of the highest level of evolution that that style of sword had also really enjoy the Viking swords Viking swords kinda like just have a feel to them that nothing else has. But I'd say it's my signature, like what people think of me enjoying the most would be the Roman Gladius. I mean, that's the sword that literally conquered the world at that time. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:16

So is there one looking back on it like historical swords where you'd say, oh, that's actually a lot harder to make than people would think, Oh, man,

Matt Stagmer 31:24

just about all of them. I would say, like the later re Ray piers, the three musketeers era, if you will swords. If you make one of those today, we have modern welders, to put all the elaborate different basket weaved guards together to weld all the pieces together, but they didn't have them. So they had a whole nother three dimensional puzzle to figure out how to make all those pieces come together and not fall apart. They're forge welding, they had to learn different techniques with torches and how to do how to make it all without modern. So you know, as a modern Sword Maker, you have to decide are you going to make it the way that they did? And try to really dive into that? Or are you just going to make it you know, the easiest way that you can possibly make and neither one's wrong. It's just a different mindset and on what sword makers have, and some sword makers do not care about how they were done. And I'd say the ones that do have more just more importance of the craft in general, you're not just aiming for the end goal. It's about leaving something after you're gone leaving a you know a culture that can continue and learn and really appreciate what I would say like the truth of the craft is and that's important because a lot of things with movies and video games and things like that get kind of corrupted and it's nice to have some guys that that really care about the craft and propelling the modern day blacksmith or bladesmith into the modern world. You know,

Nick VinZant 33:03

what's your favorite fictional sword? Oh,

Matt Stagmer 33:07

my favorite fictional sword. I don't know. I mean, I enjoy this how like the Kill Bill sword remake was really cool. I love to Kill Bill the movies. So like the Hattori Hanzo, which they it's kind of a made up person, but he was like the master Smith in Japan making the best you know, swords, he wouldn't even make them anymore. So making that was really neat. I didn't have a lot to do with it. But I definitely helped. I'll go ahead and give you let's say the master sword from Zelda I grew up playing the Zelda games so so like making the Master Sword, which we did do was was kind of surreal, kind of put me back in the boots of my eight year old self.

Nick VinZant 33:50

This is nothing against this particular genre of fiction. I don't generally like the anime swords very much. They're too big, or they're too much of a character. I guess I like the simple, the simplicity of it more. Yeah.

Matt Stagmer 34:04

And you know, that's something about it. Like with anime and video games, magic is always a factor, you know, whether they call it magic or they call it you know, Power Up skill level or whatever. So like being able to lift something that realistically would be 150 pounds and swinging around. It's pretty silly with there's something to be said about that. I try not to give anybody crap, depending on you know, what they what they like, so if that's interesting to them to see the impossible done and made look easy by their hero, then that's okay, too. But I agree with you. I like to see them more realistic, even if it's a very fantastic design that probably would have never existed. If it's a realistic feel to it. And it looks like the sword would have balanced and be usable, then that's kind of what I liked the most. The

Nick VinZant 34:46

only one that's modern that I've seen that I was like, oh, that's looks impractical, but kind of cool. Was that new Thanos sword? Yeah, like that was was pretty cool.

Matt Stagmer 34:57

We almost made that but I didn't actually know the guys who make it. A lot of those weapons for the for the movie industry and yeah I can't imagine making that and steel would be a lot

Nick VinZant 35:07

add is there like a general wait like we're okay this is not this you can you can use this thing anymore

Matt Stagmer 35:18

yeah I mean it say like a giant two handed sword like a realistic two handed sword like really like it's this is gonna sound light over like six pounds is like heavy. Think about it you're not just one slice and it's over, you're on a battlefield, multiple people if you conquer your first opponent, you're on to the next opponent and the next opponent, you this could be a 12 hour ordeal or it could be a one hour ordeal either way you want something you can swing over and over and let me just tell you all because most of you don't think about this sword broke on the battlefield more often than they didn't. The sword was actually most often the secondary line of defense here you'd have a long spear or you know some sort of pole weapon that actually would be your first line of defense. You want to keep those people at distance as far as ways possible if your spiritual breakout sword if your sword broke, you break out the dagger and so on so so like, like say you take Lord of the Rings, those style swords, something like that over five pounds is too heavy, to

Nick VinZant 36:26

harken back to when I was drunk and bought the ninja sword. I do remember the next day like swinging it around a little bit. I was like, Oh my God, my arm. Like it felt like my tendons were coming off the next day. And that he must live in good shape.

Matt Stagmer 36:41

And that's a culture where their way of sword fighting is much different than what you think of in the movie. So you know like edge to edge pink PPP PPP. That's not Japanese, Japanese is very deliberate. One or two moves is a full fight. Like literally, after that sword comes out of the sheath, they have a plan this and a plan that and that's pretty much the fight.

Nick VinZant 37:02

How long did it take for you to get good?

Matt Stagmer 37:06

I was pretty okay. Pretty quickly now, I would say a lifetime is the correct answer. I mean it six to eight years before I could do anything that was like something I would show other makers and be proud of. But I was lucky I just I had a background of all the right stuff. And when I got into it, it just I like to tackle like, if my brother told the story of me starting off, he would tell you like I always did. The hardest thing is like I would ask, Hey, what's the hardest thing to do? And they would tell me and they would all go off to lunch and I would stay in the shop and I would try it and conquer it and do it. And I just continued my entire career to look at things that way. Like what's the next hardest thing? What's the next hardest thing? And I go about it that way I got very comfortable in a grinder. That's what people know me for. Kind of like, I'm like the grinder guy. Some people say I'm the best of I don't know if I'm the best but I'm definitely the fastest and confident or I'm a grinder. So that allowed me to get through things very fast. But I'd say to get pretty okay at making swords. It's half a dozen years. Wow. Yeah, at least. I mean to mastersmith level you know 10 years minimum. Dang, yeah.

Nick VinZant 38:32

Then what is the the biggest mistake most people starting out make?

Matt Stagmer 38:39

I think they try to jump right into making something super big and super elaborate where like, say you want to make a sword. You want to be a Sword Maker, I would say make a dagger first. So this big are all the equipment smaller. But it teaches you all the same lessons, all the proportions, everything handle guard, construction, heat treat, it's literally like a sword scaled down. So I would suggest start there. Don't start on trying to make a giant two handed sword before you've done any kind of work. But learn small and progress. That's what I would say. And really, if you want to be any kind of blade maker, knife maker, Sword Maker, whatever. Start with blacksmithing which people kind of combine into the same realm, but they're very different.

Everest Filmmaker Elia Saikaly

Adventure Filmmaker Elia Saikaly documents the highs and lows of the world’s tallest mountain. Carrying a camera to areas very few people have even seen. We talk summiting Everest, surviving avalanches and earthquakes, high-altitude cinematography, climbing K2 in winter, mountain photography and forgetting to hit record. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Ways to Say Hello.

Elia Saikaly: 02:06ish

Pointless: 55:27ish

Top 5: 01:17:06ish

https://eliasaikaly.com (Elia Saikaly Website)

https://www.instagram.com/eliasaikaly (Elia Saikaly Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaXi-ChY984NfjsWFXsjCUw (Elia Saikaly YouTube)

Interview with Elia Saikaly: Adventure Filmmaker

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. This is a really special episode. It's our 200th episode and coming up mountain stories. And the best ways to say hello.

Elia Saikaly 0:24

My entry point to high altitude mountaineering and being a filmmaker really started out with a chance phone call. And I got this question, which was, do you want to go to Everest? I need a camera guy. Right? So most people who are climbing that high end of the death zone, they're not being bothered with taking photographs, right? Like you're taking three or four breaths for every step that you take. There's an incredibly complex obstacle you face at the base of Everest called the Khumbu Icefall. You're playing Russian roulette with your life in there. It's known as the savage mountain. I mean, Ketu in comparison to Everest, I mean, Everest kind of feels like Disneyland, all of a sudden, it's like, I see the Dalai Lama, His Holiness, stepping towards me, and I'm just thinking, holy crap. It's the Dalai Lama. And I didn't record,

Nick VinZant 1:13

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a climber, cinematographer, filmmaker, journalist, mountaineer and explorer who has survived everything from avalanches to earthquakes, while telling stories about some of the most dangerous places on earth. And what's really amazing is that he has done something that very few people have been able to do. He's gone to these places, all while carrying a camera showing people locations, and experiences that very few people have ever seen. This is documentary filmmaker, Elia Seikaly. How did you get started in this? Was it a love of the mountains? Was it a love of filmmaking? Like, what do you think was the main thing that brought you in?

Elia Saikaly 2:15

My entry point to high altitude mountaineering, and being a filmmaker really started out with a chance phone call? I was 26. At the time, I had already been in the industry for six or seven years, I got into working with cameras, because my dad was an enthusiast. So I grew up around cameras. And I wasn't quite feeling fulfilled in my life. And I just knew that there had to be something more for me. And I got this phone call, it was completely random. And a friend of mine called me up who's a producer? And I get this question, which was, do you want to go to Everest? I need a camera guy. And that was it. And I'm like, I don't even know where Everest is. I've barely traveled the world. I've I've never been to that part of the world specifically didn't know a thing about mountaineering. And I just said, Yes, it was this crazy idea. And I just thought, I mean, how could I possibly say No,

Nick VinZant 3:07

when you got to Everest and realized whatever's was were you like, oh, shit, or were you did you feel ready for it?

Elia Saikaly 3:15

I mean, I was clueless. I'm not gonna lie. I was completely clueless. I was really young, I was naive. I came from a sport background. So when you combine sort of the the Mental Toughness capacity that I had, at that time, with my bodybuilding background and sport in general, and then somebody who could handle the camera, it just seemed like an obvious fit to this person. So did I know what I was getting myself into? Absolutely not. It was it was very overwhelming, right? Everything from the environment, to the culture to the exposure of altitude, every single component of that was overwhelming to me at the time. And it's important to say as well that my assignment was not to climb Everest. My assignment was to film, a friend of mines journey, who was he was trying to be the oldest Canadian to summit Everest. So much. I was going to base camp, and then I trained his climbing partner who's Sherpa. So we trained him to use the camera and then the job was, you know, chumby, the local Nepalese climber He would climb to the summit was Shawn and film. And my job was film all the way to base camp.

Nick VinZant 4:22

When you look at a lot of films, you know about Everest and about climbing, are most of them filming right up to the top? Or are you one of the few people who did do that? Does that whatever the proper English would be in that regard?

Elia Saikaly 4:35

Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair to say that there are a select few of us who do it really well. Right. When you're talking about filming to the top of Everest, you're talking about working in the death zone. And the death zone is this environment above 8000 meters or 26,000 feet above sea level. So it's an area where you're literally deteriorating faster than you can recover. So you're dying, right? So most people Who are climbing that high end of the death zone, they're not being bothered with taking photographs, right? Like you're taking three or four breaths for every step that you take. So as a result of that, you know, you really need a certain kind of individual who can perform in those environments just as a climber, and then stack the complex task of filming, telling stories, worrying about sound and video and chasing talent in this environment that's incredibly hostile. It's a very difficult job to do. And there are not a lot of us that can do it.

Nick VinZant 5:33

Like when you do the filming, or you kind of scouting locations, like I gotta set my camera up here, I gotta be in this place. Hey, wait, right there, let me get this film, or you just gotta like, you take everything as it can go, and you get what you can and make the most out of it later.

Elia Saikaly 5:49

It all depends on where you are, right? So as you're tracking the base camp, that's, let's say, a 10 day journey. So it's very comfortable. It's control. There are beautiful trails and lodges, which are the equivalent of little hotels, so we call them tea houses. And you have a lot of support. And it's it's an environment that you control. So there's a lot that you can do from a storytelling standpoint. The second that you leave Basecamp, then the whole game changes. That's where the climb actually begins. And for the most part, people are not willing to stop for you. Right? So it's very complicated, and you really have to stay on the path because it's incredibly dangerous. There are crevices. There are hidden crevices under snow bridges, you don't see there's an incredibly complex obstacle you face at the base of Everest called the Khumbu Icefall, you're playing Russian roulette with your life in there, right? You're like an ant, navigating this ice fortress, and these giant size pieces of ice known as seracs. These things are collapsing, you've got crevices with ladders, you need to cross like it. It sounds insane, just saying it. But But that's, that's the environment that you work in. So this idea of plotting your shots? Yeah, yeah, definitely you do plot some shots out. But when it when it really comes down to it, you have to stay on the path, because it's incredibly dangerous. And when you get to the final summit day, you're really racing against the clock, nobody wants to stop for you, you race against the clock, because you get this tiny window, where you can sneak up to the summit, touch the top and get down as quick as possible. And so as a storyteller, and filmmaker, you're fighting against all those elements. And you really have to understand that environment, know yourself, well be super competent as an athlete and a creative and just work with all those obstacles stacked on top of you at the same time to make sure you get the shots you do as much as you can with quality. You don't put yourself in harm's way, you don't put anyone else in harm's way. And most importantly, you get yourself and then everyone on your team down safely.

Nick VinZant 7:56

Do you feel like you've captured Everest, in the sense that like, if I stuck at home, can't go there at all your videos and films and stories really shows people what it's like? Or is that just as close as we can get?

Elia Saikaly 8:15

I would like to think that I've done a pretty good job at showing the beauty of Everest in a way that we don't often see. I'm a person who becomes obsessed with the things that I love. And one of the things that I obsessed over was time lapse photography. So when most people are sleeping on Everest, for example, which is what you should be doing, because you have to recover. I'm out every night when the sky is clear. And I'm recording 10s of 1000s of images throughout the season to capture that magic of the night sky. So you don't see a lot of that online. I think I'm one of there are a number of us that do this. But I think that that aspect of my work really translates the beauty of that environment. The other piece, which which I think is incredibly rare. And you know, there's a video that it kind of blew my mind. I mean, it's got like 15 million views on it on YouTube. And I never expected it to go wildly viral like that. But I think it has because it's really showing the upper part of that mountain in a way that is just raw, real brutal, unfiltered, you know, there's no filmmaking, gimmickry. There's no music and voiceover and fast editing. It's just, you're there, you're hanging out on the side of the mountain, you're seeing people suffering, you know, dressed like Spaceman wearing oxygen masks, and my camera just sits there and observes this. So from that standpoint, I think I've done a fairly good job at really putting people there so they can feel what it's like.

Nick VinZant 9:45

I watched that and one of the things that kind of jumped out at me about it was the guy he's dressed in yellow shirt. There's a lot of people dressed now, but he's just he's just sitting there like and then he finds only takes the step is that like every single step there,

Elia Saikaly 10:03

that is the most extreme version of extreme altitude. And that guy is a friend of mine. And what's really crazy about that scene is so I'm standing on what's called the Hillary step in that moment. And for the listeners that don't know the history, the Hillary step is the crux of the climb, and the crux is a technical climbing term for the most difficult part. So imagine in 1953, you have Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, these are the first two men to summit Everest, this was the final frontier, it had never been accomplished before. And so they pioneered this 10 meter high rock face at 28,700 feet above sea level. So I wanted to film from from that iconic spot on Everest. And what's crazy, what you don't see in the video, is there's a 7000 foot drop right behind me. And my friend, Massoud literally leans on me in that moment, and he's exhausted, and I'm feeling him. And we have a great relationship. And he just leans on me and takes a breath and puts his hand down on my knee.

Nick VinZant 11:06

I was wondering whose hand that was.

Elia Saikaly 11:10

And you get what's beautiful about that moment is you can really feel the trust between us. And, you know, he just felt safe enough to just lean on me. And he knew I had his back. And I'm the camera guy, right. So I'm filming all this. And, you know, it's important to let people know as well that, you know, when you watch a video like that, it's not just me doing that, there's there's a highly orchestrated operation happening in order to make that happen. And that's a combination of the guides who are guiding the expedition, my Sherpa film crew. So the Nepalese high altitude climbers that support my efforts, and quite frankly, like, they are the unsung heroes of Mount Everest, they, they make it all happen. They're the guys that, you know, open up the route and fix the lines and transport equipment. And in my case, as a filmmaker, I can't do it without them. And it's this symbiotic relationship where it's just orchestrated, we knew that we wanted to film from that spot. And so everybody was on board with that. And when this guy got to that moment, he knew that I was there, I raced ahead, I sat on that iconic spot for a couple minutes. And I waited for the team to arrive. So what you see may look simple to a degree, but it's there was a lot of thought that went into that and to do it safely, is the most important part. And that's just a lot of people supporting this idea. And the community online gets to enjoy Mount Everest in that way, as a result, follow up

Nick VinZant 12:33

that really good answer with this question like so do you have gloves on? Like, how are you pressing? How are you pressing record?

Elia Saikaly 12:40

It's insane, man. Like, I'm first of all, so my father is Lebanese. I'm born Canadian. Mother's Canadian. And I grew up in Ottawa, Canada. So the cold is not something that's unique to us. Yeah, right. When we're three or four years old, their parents throw us outside of snowsuits. And they're like, Okay, go play and it's minus 20. So we're used to it. And, you know, in that moment, yes, I have gloves on. But you know, as a high altitude cinematographer, my hands are constantly at risk. It's very dangerous. And I never fully appreciated being Canadian and our Canadian winters until I really started to think about it and recognize the advantage that I had working in these extreme environments when it's minus 20. Because I can only shoot with thin thin gloves on. So I often depending how cold it is, if it's really cold, I have to take off the big down mitt, I will have the liner gloves on, I'll usually have hand warmers inside those gloves. And then I pull the camera out. And then I've popped the battery in, get focused, get the shot, roll, then reverse engineer everything, put everything away, stick the camera back on my shoulder and then keep running upwards. So it's it's a very complex, difficult thing to do. But it's kind of my obsession. I love it. And I think the payoff is amazing when you can share that part of the world with people

Nick VinZant 14:00

so you're actually doing it handheld I thought maybe like okay, he's just he's got like a good GoPro rig or something on there. When you get up to the very tip you

Elia Saikaly 14:08

do. damn well with with My professional background, like, I often tell people, I'm a storyteller not a climber. So I started out in the film and television industry long before I got into climbing. So for me when I'm part of these professional productions GoPros have their place for sure. But I've got a I've got the lightest heaviest rig that I can manage up there. So often if you see a photograph of me behind the scenes, I've got a fairly significant you know, mirrorless camera with an onboard microphone with lots of batteries, my climbing partner percent cause he's got the other half of the batteries. We've got a tripod as well. We've got backup cameras, and in this day and age, it's amazing because you've got lightweight drones, lightweight gimbals mirrorless cameras, you know, providing incredibly high quality images. So So we push that tech to It's extreme in that environment. And then your mental focus and physical capacity all combined allow you to actually record and create images. And in my case, I'm also tracking story. So I'm looking for content, I have to be aware of where the talents at and what they're going through and, and how what's unfolding relates to the story that we're telling. And oftentimes, I'm shooting documentaries. So it's just not enough to just record images, you got to record images with great sound with high quality and the content has to fit into the overall story you're telling,

Nick VinZant 15:33

is there a spot on the mountain and mountain in general terms, right? Like, what is there a spot where generally like, all this is going to be the hardest place,

Elia Saikaly 15:42

anything in the death zone is hard, right, you're dying up there, you can't survive, life cannot exist up there. And it is incredibly taxing on the body. And it's, it's important to help people understand as well that, you know, in the death zone once once you reach this area, approximately 7000 meters, 7500 meters, sometimes lower, you begin breathing supplemental oxygen through a mask and a tank that's, you know, on your back and, and the local Nepalese high altitude workers, often referred to as the Sherpa teams. I mean, these guys, there's mass coordination to ensure that you've got extra oxygen as well in the tents and the food so so everything above 1000 meters is difficult, absolutely everything. And it's also important for the listener to understand that there are multiple ways that you can climb Everest, right? Like everything we've talked about so far. This is this is from the south side in Nepal. So Everest straddles the the Chinese Tibetan border and the Nepalese border. So you can climb from the north side, you can climb from the south side, which is everything that we've been talking about. And then you've got much harder routes as well that less than 1% of people attempt. But in this particular case, yeah, everything above the death zone is incredibly difficult. The most dangerous part of the mountain is what's called the Khumbu Icefall and it's this flowing river of ice that begins to fold upon itself.

Nick VinZant 17:06

Is there a spot on the mountain that like, nobody's ever been able to film or photograph or anything like, Nope, we're not screwing around here like, not that you're screwing around, because you know what I mean, right? Like, nobody's ever seen this before.

Elia Saikaly 17:20

Before. I mean, I would say I've got a couple ideas in my mind that I would love to pull off I, I said earlier, I am a bit of a time lapse, obsessed not. So I often have four or five cameras running all night long. I've never seen imagery from the summit. I've never seen time lapse imagery from the summit at night. I've never seen night photography, like really good night photography from the final ridge on Everest. So that that's from the south summit to the summit of Everest. So those are things that we don't see a lot of. The other thing we don't see a lot of are the most difficult routes on Everest. So you know, for example, the West Ridge, or you know, very complex, what we call lines, these are the paths that you choose to climb up to the summit. Most people climb the easiest route, which which makes sense, you want to keep things safe and maximize your odds of success. The purest climbers like though really crazy people who don't often have, you know, the big social media accounts or who are always in the blockbusters. They're doing really crazy stuff where they're going up unclimbed routes, new routes, doing things solo by themselves. And so imagery from those areas and video from those areas is pretty rare to come by

Nick VinZant 18:36

the thing for me, right, like sitting in my Seattle basement, you know, the stuff that I've seen off of Evers is like the huge long lines, is it still like that where it almost seems like a tourist place? In some ways, right? Is it still like that? Is that changing? Is that an old thing? Or?

Elia Saikaly 18:54

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. So in 2019, I was producing, directing and shooting a film called The dream of Everest, and the documentary is going to be released next year, actually. And we were at the center of that crazy unfolding on top of the world where you had hundreds of people that went for the top at the same time. We've all seen that image. And yes, I mean, that's that's reality up there. And every year more and more people are wanting to attempt Everest. And the reason that happened in 2019. You know, it's it's a bit of a complex unfolding here. But essentially, you know, you have a weather window on Everest. So what you do is, you know, throughout this one week, which is, you know, traditionally unfolding that last week of May, so let's say May 20 to 25th. Historically, that's when the good weather exists. And because it takes you six or seven weeks to climb Everest, what you need to do is bactine, your expedition from around May 20. And so right now, you've got people early spring heading to Basecamp. And they know that they're going to shoot for the summit around May 20. That varies, of course, sometimes earlier, sometimes a bit later, sometimes there are multiple windows. In that case, there was a very narrow window of two days or so with an extra day on the end, and some days before, but the majority of people went for it all at the same time. And that's what created that congestion. And the other thing that complicates this a little bit more is that there are also key areas on a mountain, where you're, you're naturally going to see a lot of congestion, and they call these areas have a bottleneck. So they're often very technical areas where you just can't move quickly. And so naturally, if you get somebody in a line, they're going to slow down, that's going to cause this ripple effect for a lot of people who then have to wait for that person. And so you start to see these, these lineups build. The other piece of it is that let's say for every three or 400 permits and climbers that want to climb Everest, you have to imagine to that then that means there are five or 600 potential local Nepalese climbers, Sherpas and other cast members who who are up on the mountain as well. So you talking about eight 900 people climbing Everest at the same time, in addition to all of the support staff that doesn't claim that lives at Basecamp. So you know, there are there are over 1000 people living at Mount Everest base camp throughout any given season,

Nick VinZant 21:26

you know, and again, like like, this is me as a bystander, and I asked this question with no judgment or any kind of word with that, like, is it? Is it a bad thing, that there's that many people lined up? I mean, you look at it, and like your first reaction is like, Oh, the sacred place? And there's just a line of tourists. But is it? Right, like, I guess, what do you think is, is it a bad thing is that's just how it is?

Elia Saikaly 21:50

It's complicated, is probably my best answer. And we'll unpack this in our documentary. But you know, to answer that high level for you, personally, naturally, I don't think it's a good thing. Obviously, you know, Everest, in some ways, has lost its charm. It has lost its magic. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's hardly the purest experience that it once was, it has become highly commercialized, which is not necessarily a good thing. And yet, at the same time, you know, the other lens that you need to look at it through is that it's providing incredible opportunity for local people, right, like the local people that work on that mountain are now the ones that are running businesses, they're earning their income, they're putting their children through school, and feeding their families and creating opportunity for themselves. So from that standpoint, if you think, Well, if we changed all that and took all that away, then what would happen? So I think perhaps the you know, the better way to look at it, and to ask is, well, how can we make this all better?

Nick VinZant 22:51

Now? You, Phil, none other mountains as well, though, right? Are they becoming like that, too?

Elia Saikaly 22:55

Yeah. I mean, it all depends on your style. Right? We we talk about style a lot in in climbing. And it's important to differentiate, right? Like you have classic rock climbing, you have ice climbing, and then you have high altitude mountaineering, you've got hardcore, true climbers who don't go anywhere near Mount Everest, who are doing things without even telling people, they're out in the alpine they're doing it as difficult as possible, and making it as hard as possible on themselves. So, so that exists. And then you've got the other side. So with these other mountains, yes, I mean, we are seeing the commercialization of other mountains as well, right? Like one of the popular challenges is something called the Seven Summits. So this is the highest mountain on every continent. And this This was a challenge that was created by two businessmen actually, Dick bass and Frank Wells. And it was just the ultimate adventure between two friends and they popularized this. And then you have quite a number of people that set out to aspire to, to claim the Seven Summits, it is getting busier. I spent the last year of my life working on a project on K two, and k two is the second highest mountain on the planet. It's known as the savage mountain. I mean, k two in comparison to Everest, I mean, Everest kind of feels like Disneyland in comparison to k two it's it's it's it's the wild east, it's incredibly volatile, very dangerous, unforgiving, it has a death rate of one in four people who summit die on descent, right. So this is how serious you know these mountains can be and and we are beginning to see commercialization even in Pakistan on K two. So yes, it is it is becoming more and more commercialized. But you do have the option right? You can stay clearly away from all of those peaks and just do smaller peaks 5000 6000 7000 meter mountains, there are a whole slew of options. You know, for The person that wants to climb mountains,

Nick VinZant 25:01

so, you know, get into the heavier kind of stuff. I guess you've lost friends, like, what is that? How do you keep doing it when you know, the toll that it has taken on some people?

Elia Saikaly 25:13

Yeah. I asked myself that question all the time. And you begin to look at the statistics. And the longer you continue to expose yourself to these environments, the higher the likelihood is, at some point your luck's going to run out. And I have survived multiple incidents, you know, in 2015, I got hit by an avalanche. On Mount Everest, that base camp and over 18 people died that day. And across Nepal, almost 10,000 people, if not more, died that day, because of the earthquake. And on Everest, it triggered an avalanche. And it completely wiped out central Basecamp. So you had this 1500 foot tidal wave of snow that just came down obliterated central base camp and made its way out to the exterior edges of camp. And it was a warzone man. And, you know, at one point, I, I had bodies piled up in my tent. It was insane. I my my friend died during the aftermath. You know, it was it was just absolutely horrific. And base camp is the area where you're supposed to be protected. And I've got this camera. And, you know, I'm observing all this unfolding trying to decide, okay, like, what is my role here is my role to be a documentarian, a storyteller, or is my role to be on the frontlines helping people. And so it becomes a very complex situation. And I have been exposed to these situations over and over and over again, in the mountains. And I, because of the nature of my job, and the stories I tell, you know, I am a journalist of sorts as well, I gotta chase the stories. And so I find myself very close to tragedy time and time again. And you reach a point where you begin to inherit that trauma as well. Because these are incredibly difficult circumstances. And then you inherit vicarious trauma, you know, the pain that others go through, because you're telling those stories, and oftentimes, I found myself, the person in the middle, who's relaying information to families of the deceased, because, you know, there's crazy stuff happening up here on top of the world, and the families at home don't know what's going on. And I'm one of these people that bridges that gap at times. And, ultimately, I have definitely asked myself, I don't know how long I can't keep doing this. Because at some point, my luck will run out.

Nick VinZant 27:47

It's what I've always wondered, right? In that kind of circumstances, like, obviously, it's dangerous people know, they're not coming back. The people, though, really? Does it seem to really weigh on them, like, oh, I might really not be coming back. Do they seem to know what they're really getting into?

Elia Saikaly 28:05

I would say the people with experience come to terms with the fact that there's a high possibility that they can die. And so those that are self aware, that have spent a lot of time in these environments, who are often either local Nepalese climbers, Sherpas, for example, you know, the best guides in the world, filmmakers like myself who are constantly exposed to these environments, you have to be prepared for the worst. And, and I always say, I plan to fail, right? Naturally, I'm optimistic I want to succeed, of course, I want to survive, but I need to be ready for anything. And I need to train my mind to be in a place where I can respond and react calmly. when shit hits the fan and bad things start to unfold. I would say that it's probably a fair statement that somebody who's fairly new at this pretends that that's not reality. And I think that that's a mistake.

Nick VinZant 29:06

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions? Absolutely. is ever a steal Evers? No, what do you think is going to replace it?

Elia Saikaly 29:14

I don't think that the allure of Everest will ever change. And it's, it's like it's just hardwired in us because of its symbolism, right? It has that image of the, the the ultimate achievement because there is no higher place on the planet where we can place our feet. So so for that reason, it will always retain its value. It's it's you know, trauma Luma It's the mother goddess of the earth. It's the highest point on the planet. What will replace it? I don't know. I don't think anything can ever replace Mount Everest.

Nick VinZant 29:49

Just filming things ruin the experience for you. And I think what they mean by the sense of like, it's kind of like if you're watching through a lens. Are you still watching? Like does it feel about Like I was there,

Elia Saikaly 30:02

I've asked myself that question many times where I've pondered Am I really a part of this experience as an observer. And I've questioned that because particularly, when you're obsessed with detail in the way that I am, with sound, and light, and picture and lenses, and content, and all these technical details, for sure, it takes you out of the present moment. But the beauty of it is that in another way, it really immerses you in the present moment in a way that is incredibly unique. And I have to say, you know, the camera, for me has been the greatest gift I have ever received, and really have my father to thank for being exposed to it very young. And I say that, you know, as a filmmaker, particularly as a director of photography, you're the person who needs to be right there, right in the action observing all of this. And so whether you appreciate it, like it or not, I mean, you're in it, man, you're absolutely in it, you're in rooms, you're in environments, you have access to story and people and knowledge and, and you're, you know, all of a sudden, in a place that you never imagined that you could be. So when I take that, versus Am I really a part of this experience, definitely, I'm going to choose to be in these extraordinary places. The other thing, just to be part to that is that it's really important that you also live the experience consciously outside of that. So they these days, when I go on an expedition, it's like, I'm doing this job, which is the thing that I love to do. But as soon as I hit cut, right, it's like, um, it's all joy. It's joy. It's all it's wonder. It's shared experiences, it's creativity. And often on the front lines, you're having very different experiences in comparison to the person in this case, for example, who's who's who's climbing only. And for me, that's the journey. And the summit really is kind of the cream on top. Right? Where it's that's a bonus if you make it, but really, it's everything else. That is the reason why I'm there.

Nick VinZant 32:03

Have you ever left the lens cap on?

Elia Saikaly 32:07

Haven't we all? You know, I have a funny story for you about that one of the most treasured experiences that I've ever had, was interviewing the Dalai Lama. And I had this incredibly privileged experience where a very good friend of mine, so his wife, they were living in India at the time, just outside His holiness, His temple in Dharamsala. And they asked me if I was game, because I had essentially said to the look, if ever you have a project, and I can support you, just call me. So I get I get this email, which was pretty wild. And she said, Are you interested in in helping us record this interview with the Dalai Lama? And I'm like, okay. Yes. So so it was, it was this amazing experience, where I was in charge of the technical side of the production that he set up five cameras and lit his room in his temple. And, and I don't get starstruck a whole lot. And I've worked with, you know, sports celebrities and athletes making 40 $50 million a year and, you know, musicians and actors, and you know, mountain selection, you name it, right. And it's like, you get you get pretty used to it. You're pretty desensitized to it. And we're all human beings at the end of the day, but I was I was pretty starstruck here, right. And I'm sitting in the, in the doorway. And all of a sudden, it's like, I see the Dalai Lama, His Holiness, stepping towards me, and I'm just thinking, holy crap. It's the Dalai Lama. And I didn't record, right. And I was thinking I was recording. And then I didn't record and then I noticed the red button wasn't flashing and I thought, Oh, shit, you know, hit that red button. But it was just one of these amazing moments where it was like, wow, like, all that sacrifice. You know, every crazy thing I ever did. You know, all these chances. I took on believing in myself creating this career that everybody said, I was wasting my time. It was too risky, I should get a real job, then all of a sudden, it's like, you're filming his holiness, and you're in this room with him and you're having this amazing conversation? And

Nick VinZant 34:09

did the cameras like that environment? Are they like, Hey, man, it's pretty broke blow like, do you run into a lot of technical problems up there?

Elia Saikaly 34:17

Absolutely. Yeah. And I always say, you know, it's, it's not necessarily the cameras fault, right? Oftentimes, it's it's user error, right? Like I when I was on top of Everest, so I've summited Everest four times now. And I'm actually I've got the Canadian record for that apparently. So I'm on the last an expedition that I was on, you know, there was this moment where the batteries were just dropping from 100 to zero in a couple of seconds. And and this is like the most important part of the climb, right? We're just below the Hillary step. And there's, you know, I would say 10 or 12 people right in front of me, and all my batteries are dead. And percent Kasia who's who's my rockstar clock? I mean partner and best buddy. So PK Sherpas his name. So he's at the back of the line. I'm at the Hillary step. I'm running out of batteries. And imagine this comical scene where I'm like, PK didn't have radios, we should add radios. But I'm hollering at him in a good way to bring me the batteries. And he's such a rock star, which all these guys are rock stars, that he climbs up onto what they call the cornice, right. So imagine these ribs, spires of frozen ice at 28,600 feet above sea level. PK climbs over everybody front points his way with his spikes, which which are your crampons climbs over everybody fully exposed, drops down goes into his breast pocket hands, my batteries. Like this is this is the kind of stuff that happens sometimes, you know, everything fails, cameras, fail batteries, fail things, free sensors, shutters, everything goes wrong. And it's really important just to have backup plans. So if you if you're going to my backpack, I've got GoPros there, I've got an extra mirrorless you know, PK, who's my right hand, man, you know, he's got extra backup equipment. Because we can't come back without the images. Do

Nick VinZant 36:15

other climbers get mad at you because they're struggling and you're filming them? And also doing this while holding a camera?

Elia Saikaly 36:24

I have had moments where where people have made jokes. I mean, we have to keep it right. Yeah, right. In the beginning, when I started doing this, it was like, oh, you know, life or death. And it's really dramatic, you know, and you kind of get to the point 17 years later, where if you're not having fun, you really shouldn't be there. So so we keep it pretty light. And, you know, for the most part, the expeditions at least that I film, we tend to have more experience and in some cases vastly more experienced. So we have an easier time because of our experience on the mountain. And oftentimes I've been filming people with PK chasing me and and and again full credit to our Nepalese film crew who tolerate my antics, where when I move there two or three other guys that have to move with me. And so the talent that we're being filmed kind of laugh at the situation and think, Okay, this is ridiculous. You know, they're chugging up the line. And meanwhile, you got three guys that are going up faster, sometimes backwards, you know, filming everything that's unfolding. So it is comical when you look at it from that standpoint, sometimes. And at other times, and this is, this is important to say and it's it's something that I've had to become good at, where everybody's on board Traditionally, when things are going right, right, we want to be part of whatever it is that's unfolding. The harder part is when things start to go wrong. And as a storyteller, there's the saying, and I hang on to it, which is the most important stories are the most difficult to tell. Right. And I've been in countless situations where even the people that I respect and who respect me, became very angry with me at times, because I had the foresight in that moment to know that what's unfolding as difficult as it is, is incredibly important, in some cases, historically important. And the outside world needs to understand what's happening here or whatever other complex factor related to our project. So I've been under a number of situations where Yeah, I mean, things are very difficult. And it's very hard to film when things are going wrong. And I have had to become very good at that. And I think that the nature of some of the projects, I've got my hands in Everest 2019 being one of them. And my last project on K two, there, there are two projects where when it was at its worst when it was all at its most complex. Not only was I rolling, I was climbing, I was managing the situation in some in some circumstances and helping other people at the same time as well.

Nick VinZant 38:57

Let's let's follow let's follow that up with how do you feel about the movie cliffhanger.

Elia Saikaly 39:04

I love I love Sylvester Stallone. Yeah, I mean it's it's kind of fun. It's like you know that film on K to where there are explosions happening Vertical Limit explosions happening. I mean, hilarious, right? I mean that that is clearly not what really happens. That's Hollywood at its finest and at its best. So you know, you got to accept that for what it is. I suppose for me, I find it highly entertaining

Nick VinZant 39:30

there though a Hollywood movie that like oh, that's what it's like.

Elia Saikaly 39:33

Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, there's obviously a vast difference between the type of work I do which which is reality, it's high reality and documentary work versus fiction. One of the really interesting parts of my careers that people license my footage, so there isn't a lot of it. So oftentimes, a lot of the productions on Everest, the producers will come to me looking for my footage. So You've seen my footage on everywhere from CNN, Netflix, HBO discovery, the list goes on and on. And it's a real privilege to be able to do that. But specific to your question the the visual effects team from the Everest film that was set in Nepal during the 1996 disaster. So the Hollywood film, it was, it was really interesting because the visual effects team reached out to me and they were looking for reference footage, which I thought was really cool, because the attention to detail was that, and they had heard the story where, I guess, Neil deGrasse Tyson, who I'm a huge fan of. So apparently, there's a story and somebody else will have to confirm this, but this is what I heard. And he criticized the placement of the stars in the film, Titanic. And so the visual effects team decided to use that as a benchmark. And they said, Okay, we want to get everything right. We want to know what it looks like at camp for at nine o'clock pm at that specific time of year, because we want our visual effects to accurately represent the reality of what Mount Everest really looks like. And I thought, Wow, that's amazing. That's an incredible amount of detail. Because what you tend to see in these films, you see some really bad adaptations of mountain films, because clearly, they're not shooting up there with their actors, for the most part. And so I felt that they they got a lot right in that film.

Nick VinZant 41:29

If Neil deGrasse Tyson sent me that'd be like, Come on, man. Making a movie. And Leo could have fit on that door. And you know that this is a little bit heavier one, I guess it's like, Are there really, bodies left on a lot of the mountains?

Elia Saikaly 41:43

Yes. Yes, there are. It is an unfortunate reality of 1000 meter peaks. More and more, what tends to happen is that the people that are left behind due to tragic circumstances, oftentimes, you have to understand the hostile nature of that environment to begin with. And anytime that somebody attempts to recover a person that is deceased or even saved somebody, you have to remember that you can barely save yourself up there, you can barely place one foot in front of the other up there. And so to orchestrate a rescue operation to bring somebody down is just extremely dangerous. It is possible people do it, I have been a part of a number of recoveries because of my exposure as a filmmaker. So I understand what goes into it. And it's often my Nepalese climbing partners who are orchestrating some of those, those recoveries. For the most part, people have either been brought down or out of respect for the families and the deceased, they've been moved aside, so that at least at minimum, they're out of sight. But unfortunately, it is a tragic reality of that environment. And this is actually one of the topics that I get into in my film that is set on Everest from the 2019 climbing season, so that that film will be released next year. And we do unpack that reality because 11 people lost their lives that year.

Nick VinZant 43:13

Now, that is that the was that one of the most that has ever at the same time

Elia Saikaly 43:17

was to the earthquake technically, was the most and there was another avalanche that I was also present for, unfortunately, in 2014, where 16 Sherpas lost their lives. And I was actually trapped above this, because of the wreckage, which had completely destroyed the Khumbu Icefall the route and so we couldn't get down. And it was just it was It was tragic, because 16 Sherpas lost their lives.

Nick VinZant 43:45

How do you feel about drones? And I think this person both means in the sense of like, Are they good for filming? And should they be up there?

Elia Saikaly 43:52

Drones are incredible technology. They're a tool in my toolkit. I'm a huge advocate of flying drones responsibly. So in the adverse region, and actually you you have to be permitted, you want to do it legally, you want to do it safely, you want to be really careful in that you have to plan for things that can potentially go wrong, you know, drones dropped from the sky sometimes and when you're dealing with extreme altitude and the cold, especially, you know, there's all kinds of mechanical failure. That is possible. And, you know, I'll give you a quick example here. I was on K two this past summer. And I was climbing k two in winter making a documentary about a team who were attempting que tu as the last unconquered, 8000 meter mountain in winter. So I was telling the story of citied and Alice apara, as well as an Icelandic climber named John Snorri. And they disappeared near the summit of Ketu. And they never returned. And we were supposed to be with them. And we were just a couple of 100 meters below them percent Kaji and I and and our climbing friend Fazal, And we turn back because there was an oxygen mix up, we can find our oxygen. So I was very conservative per saying agreed we made this collective decision, we turned around the next season, we went back with CG the son who survived. And I flew my drone at 8300 meters above sea level eight can fly that high dam, I launched from 7900 meters, kind of hoping for the best, I had a couple of drones with me and you buy these drones thinking like, Okay, I mean, no one else is around here. So if it drops, it drops, and we lose it. But yeah, I launched it from 7900 meters. And I flew it up to the area known as the bottleneck. And so this is the most dangerous obstacle, arguably, in all of these 8000 meter peaks. And it's, it's just this gigantic piece of ice that's feels like it's on top of a mountain, and you need to climb under this thing. And if anything comes down, you're dead. Yeah. Right. And it's highly exposed. And so I flew the drone from 7900 meters to 8300 meters, looking for our missing friends. And so as a as a tool, I mean, it's invaluable up there. It's incredible where the Tech has gone. And I look at at all tech is valuable, as long as you use it responsibly, particularly with drones, which which can injure people if you're not responsible?

Nick VinZant 46:19

Are you able to find them?

Elia Saikaly 46:20

Yeah, we did. It was this is the, this is the topic of my last film, K to the calling, which, which is in post production at the moment, we did find them. And I mean, it's kind of a crazy story on its own, where, you know, there was a 13, or 14 Day search and rescue operation after they disappeared. And the Pakistan military got involved. And at one point, the pilots who are friends of mine, invited me to come up into the cockpit with them, and to photograph what they thought could have been our missing friends. And so you know, imagine me I'm there with my cameras, I get this request via my satellite device. And, you know, the Icelandic Chilean and Pakistani governments are working together with satellite imagery. And they identified a few objects that matching the color of our friends down suits. And the next thing, you know, I'm up in this helicopter with these Pakistani pilots, photographing what could be our friends, we were unsuccessful on that attempt, we never found them. But when we went back in the summertime, a couple of days, actually, after I flew the drone, our friends were found. And, and I was there with Alice apara. Son, so she'd, and so she had had an opportunity to bury his father, at 8000 meters above sea level, I couldn't live with the idea that there was this possibility that his father could be found, and that he would not be on the mountain as that was unfolding. It's, it's crazy stuff, you know, and that's what I spent the last year working on. And that's one of my documentaries that's coming out in the next year and a half or so,

Nick VinZant 47:59

I have no brilliant statement to follow that story up. That's one of those where I just keep my mouth closed.

Elia Saikaly 48:07

You know, I got into this 17 years ago, not having a clue that I would ever land where I've landed today. And, and I'm so grateful that I have had the privilege of being a part of these stories, and having the support of people who have believed in these stories. And it's as difficult as it's been, it's, it's, it's just been life altering. And, and I really go into these things not, not for, you know, the glory or the physical conquest. It's like, I'm really trying to tell stories that matter. I'm really trying to make a difference with my work. I want people who, you know, are a part of these stories to feel inspired. I want them to learn new things. I want them to, you know, examine themselves after hearing some of these stories and ask themselves, okay, that's, maybe that's a little bit, you know, I don't want to ever do that. But, you know, what can I learn from that? And what can I apply from some of those lessons and apply to my own life? And what dreams Am I capable of achieving? And when I look at it through that lens, it's so incredibly worthwhile. And it's, it's an amazing feeling to know that the thing that you're doing that is the thing that you love, is positively impacting people on the other side. And that really keeps me motivated to continue to do all this.

Nick VinZant 49:24

What advice would you give for somebody kind of looking to be the next you

Elia Saikaly 49:28

do something else?

Nick VinZant 49:31

That's yeah, that's how you know it's a hard career, right?

Elia Saikaly 49:34

Yeah. No, on a serious note, I would say that I always use the analogy that, you know, going on an expedition is like going on an adventure. Right? And how many times in your life do you get to suit up? Right and to embark on an adventure where you know, there are challenges and there are potential consequences. And there's this potential treasure waiting for you on top of the mountain and the treasure is not the conquest of getting to the top, you know, like the, the real treasure is, is what you learn about yourself while going through all of that. And it's these relationships that you form. And it's what you learn along the way. And it's cliche, but it's really truly about the journey. So I would say, you know, to somebody, if you want to get into all this, it'll be really humble about it, it's so easy to look at images online, and to think, oh, you know, if that person can do it, then I can do it. What you don't always see is the 17 years of grinding, and heartache and hardship and sacrifice and dedication and determination, and everything else that comes along with it. So my advice is, you know, be humble in your approach to it, be very responsible about how you do it, you know, graduate to the point of climbing Everest, so you, you know, starts with education, learn as much as you can take courses, go on small expeditions gain experience. And then ultimately, when, when you're ready to get to the big mountains, just make sure that you're responsible in terms of who you decide to hire, to support your expedition, and you want to sync up, you know, your actual abilities, you know, to the environment, and make sure you have the right person that can guide you through that and the right company. As far as filmmaking goes, I mean, I always tell people, like, you just got to shoot, right, you got to you got to create, you got to get out there, you got to do it. And a friend of mine once told me, and I never forgot this, and I was quite offended at the time. Actually, I was quite young. And, and, and, you know, I'm, I sit in a position today, you know, after all this experience, and I think it's important to be critical of of yourself, and to self examine, and to have a level of self awareness where, you know, when somebody says something to you, obviously, you know, if you're being offended by it, or it's triggering something, well, maybe there's something to learn that in there, right, as opposed to shut it down, not hear it. And this friend said to me, Elia, and I had the oldest ambition to want to be this great, you know, filmmaker, I want to climb Everest and make these movies and, and he said, What have you done?

Nick VinZant 52:03

Dang. Yeah. Ah,

Elia Saikaly 52:07

and it was like, oh, you know, I kind of hurt. But he was right. Right. And I remember that at the time. I wasn't horribly offended. I just thought Ouch. Okay. Okay, well, what can I learn from that, because I really respected this person. And this guy had ran, you know, something like 100 expeditions to the Arctic and the Antarctic, and was an accomplished explorer that worked with some of the best researchers and climate experts on the planet, and very, so it's like, I've really listened to what he said. And I thought, Okay, I'm going to show you what I've done, I'm going to gain experience, I'm going to get out, I'm going to start shooting. And if I want to be this guy that people go to, to film expeditions on Mount Everest, that I'm going to do everything that I have to do to gain that experience. So that I'm, I'm good enough. I'm responsible enough. I'm capable. And it's really about putting in the miles, you got to do the hard work. And so if you're ready for that, if you're ready for that commitment, hey, anything is possible, right? It's really up to just believing that you can and being willing to put in the miles to get yourself to where you want to be.

Nick VinZant 53:11

That's pretty much all the questions we guys anything else you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you? Where can people find you?

Elia Saikaly 53:17

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Me find me on Instagram. At LSA CLI at least likely dot coms my my website, on Facebook, tick tock all the channels. What's next for me, I've got a couple exciting expeditions. Nobody really knows this yet. But I'm leaving to Everest in a week and a half for another assignment. The most exciting stuff that I got going on at the moment is I have two really exciting films in the pipeline that I have really poured my heart and soul into, I feel they're really important films. One is called the dream of Everest, the other is called K to the calling. So take a little while to get those through post production, but really encourage people to check those out. And maybe just in closing, I would say that it's just so important to approach these environments with deep respect, deep, deep respect, and to show up responsibly, and to respect the environment to respect the local people, who are the unsung heroes of the Himalaya. And I think you really can't go wrong. If you approach the mountains. That way, you have to respect nature, you have to recognize that there are consequences to your actions, if you show up irresponsibly. And if you line all that up, and you do it, right, I'll tell you like it is life changing. It changed my life going up there. I feel like it is such a gift. And so much of what I do is about giving back and passing that gift on because I know the potential to have someone's life changed by way of experience in these environments. So that would be that would be in closing what I would say to people.

Color Expert Kate Smith

You’re mood, how you sleep, the things you buy, even who you’re attracted to. Color influences nearly every aspect of our lives and Color Expert Kate Smith knows color. We talk Color Psychology and Color Theory, how brands use color to get you to spend, designing NFL uniforms, picking the right color for any situation and why the news of today influences the colors of tomorrow (Color Forecasting). Then, we countdown the Top 5 Colors.

Kate Smith: 01:46ish

Pointless: 42:26ish

Top 5: 01:06:31

https://www.sensationalcolor.com (Kate Smith’s Website - Sensational Color)

Interview with Kate Smith: Color Expert, Sensational Color

Nick VinZant 0:10

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, callers,

Kate Smith 0:18

it does go unnoticed. But it turns out that the effects of color are really both powerful and far reaching. We've long believed that we all saw the same colors. But more recent studies show each develop similar, not yet not exactly the same color vision. And the individual experiences shape our understanding of color. When you look at a new product, or when any consumer looks at a product, they tend to make a decision about that product in 90 seconds or less. And the single most crucial component in that decision is color. Color accounts for roughly, I think about 90% of the initial judgment,

Nick VinZant 0:57

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is an expert in colors, why we like certain colors, the psychological effect they can have on us how brands use colors, to try and get us to buy more stuff. And even how the things that are happening today will determine what colors we like, years from now. It's a fascinating, fascinating in look at just how big of an impact colors have on our lives. This is color expert, Kate Smith. So like How aware are we have the impact of color in our lives? Is this something that we think about? Or do we just kind of just go unnoticed basically, for us? Well,

Kate Smith 1:57

it does go unnoticed. But it turns out that the effects of color are really both powerful and far reaching. And there's many aspects of our lives, you know, the colors that are affected by color that we don't even like you said that we don't notice, or we don't know about

Nick VinZant 2:13

where would you say like, oh, this is always going this is where color has a big impact on you

Kate Smith 2:18

probably for areas that I often will give examples of so let me give you one University of Rochester does a lot of studies. And they've studied the color red pretty extensively in particular. And they have a study that's demonstrated that men are more physically attracted to women wearing the color red, so red, red dress, red lipstick, but they're not aware of it. Most men are not aware of it. But studies have shown that they're more likely to ask the woman on a date spend more money. But the thing is, it's not just men, the same is true for women. So a later study that they did determine that women are just as much influenced by reading are more likely to find men attractive, who wear red, one of the other places where color tremendously affects us is with food and eating. And so we have a very strong relationship between what we see in our perception of how good something is. And we can even use certain types of plates and settings to enhance our perception of what we think of food is going to taste like or what the quality is, whether it's true or not. And it goes into things like they study things like orange juice, the flavored, it could be exactly the same. But if they change the lighting to make the juice look more or less a yellow than bright orange, people don't think it's as good. So it's our signals from our brain about color. Just have a tremendous impact on how we react every single day to things that are just part of our every day. Just aren't like just how we live. The travel lodge in the UK did a fun study on can the color of your bedroom impact the amount of sleep and the quality of sleep? And it turns out yes, it can. That they found that walls blue walls, which so many people have blue in their bedroom are the best promoters of red rest, followed by Green and I think was yellow. And that the worst are rooms that are gray, beige, brown or purple.

Nick VinZant 4:27

So is that because of some way that our brain is fundamentally wired in this way? Or is that just our personal preferences?

Kate Smith 4:36

It's it's both and here's how that here's how that works is there's two people call it kind of color psychology but I divided into three sort of areas that and what is the actual effect that color has on our brain regardless of whether we're aware, it doesn't matter our age, our sex where we're from in the world, nothing. There's just a An impact that color has on us. There's other things that are impacted by where we're from the culture that we grew up in. And what we're used to see, you know, what our associations with colors are. So things like one that most people know, we think of a wedding dress, people would say, white, although even in the US, that's somewhat changing. But if you said that in an Asian country, they would say the most typical is red. So those are kind of associations that we make just based on, where we've grown up, and what we've known throughout our life, but the most impactful, maybe our personal color associations. So we've long believed that we all saw the same colors, but more recent studies show that is a response to our outside world, we each developed similar, not yet not exactly the same color vision, and the individual experience shape our understanding of color. So it's kind of like a chameleon, so it can trick us and change our perception. But it's based on what our brain recognizes as our past experience.

Nick VinZant 6:10

So what I see is red might not be what you see is red.

Kate Smith 6:14

Red is a great example, Nick, because women actually perceive red, more variations in red than men do.

Nick VinZant 6:22

Are we talking about small differences? In the sense that like, I see blue, you see light blue? Or are we talking about I see blue? You see green?

Kate Smith 6:33

Yeah, it's it's a great question. And it's both in fact, we do if you say it's a blue shirt, and I'll say, yeah, it's a blue shirt, we can agree on that. But in general, we would see the same general color. Part of that's based on our language, believe it or not, and how we've spoken about colors and how we've identified colors, because there's studies that show that in some places, there was no differentiation for the word between blue and green. And that's then affects our language affects how, how will we see color, if there's, I teach a lot of people about color, and one of the things is, the more accurately you can verbalize what you say, the better you're going to become at seeing it, and vice versa. So it's sort of a two way thing,

Nick VinZant 7:23

too, just to make sure I kind of understand this, like people with regular eyesight can interpret the same color differently based on their experiences and background.

Kate Smith 7:32

Yes, you want me give a good example that you would probably recognize, remember the dress,

Nick VinZant 7:37

remember the dress?

Kate Smith 7:40

Yeah, it disrupted everyone's understanding of color. And it actually took scientists color scientists, two years to figure out why. And it was something that they hadn't really studied or been aware of before. But it was such a big, like an internet phenomena. But what it showed was that people's perception, it informs how they perceive color, and a big part of that is done lighting. And so that image of the dress, which was taken, I think on a cell phone, there was a lot of ambiguity or uncertainty in terms of what the lighting conditions were. And anytime we see something related to color, and we're faced with uncertainty, uncertainty, our mind confidently fills in the gaps in knowledge by making assumptions all behind the scenes we're not aware of so our mind perceives what it's most frequently encountered in the past. And that's how we judge so in that case, the dress Do you remember which cut what color it was? Was it blue or black or white and gold?

Nick VinZant 8:42

Black and Gold?

Kate Smith 8:45

Your choice is blue lacquer,

Nick VinZant 8:48

blue and black. But thanks for hedging your cover both. That's my background is to allow wiggle room where I'm not technically right. And I'm technically wrong at the same time.

Kate Smith 9:00

Where your that was a perfect answer, then the dresses was actually blue and black. Although most people saw it is white and gold, at least at first. And even how we feel can influence how we see color. And I often say that seeing color is not as much about what you see and more about what you think you see.

Nick VinZant 9:19

So are our colors. I know you work with a lot of brands and places like that our colors standardized in the sense that is red, red, and no matter who makes red, if it's this paint company or this paint company or this manufacturer, whatever that is red, and this is blue.

Kate Smith 9:37

That would make life so easy. I wish it was that simple. There's 1000s of different colors that people would consider red depending on the brand, but there are standardized systems. One that many people might know is Pantone. Pantone has a standardized system of color and it allows you to communicate with say with somebody far away if they Got the Pantone standard, and you had the Pantone standard, you could look at it and both say it's this particular PMS number is what we're going for. Because the only way to at least still today, to accurately make sure that you and I are on exactly the same idea of what that red is, is to look at it and to have a standard. Otherwise, say I say, oh, it's kind of an apple red. Well, my apple, maybe a different red than yours.

Nick VinZant 10:29

So does every color have an impact on us psychologically? Or is it only certain colors?

Kate Smith 10:36

I would say every color does to some degree, certain colors have a stronger impact. And we've already talked about Red Red is the color with the most with really the most impact on our psychology. And part of it is because sort of interesting when you think of red, what do you associate with the color red?

Nick VinZant 10:56

Warning? Probably a little bit warning, I definitely notice it. I always you will notice red faster than you notice any other color. I feel like

Kate Smith 11:07

yeah, maybe that maybe yellow is true. Red is kind of colors. Yeah, so very bright or orange, red, orange, yellow are the ones that you notice most quickly, one sort of why we paint school buses yellow or things in fire engines red, those are colors that are very noticeable. Red has some associations with also speed aggressiveness. So red cars, we talked about sexy red dresses, or lipstick. The idea of seeing red when you're angry. So there's this side of it, which is really the more of kind of an aggressive or out there not getting noticed me type of feeling. But reds also strongly associated with the emotion of love. So red roses, red hearts at Valentine's Day. And so you kind of go, Okay, how could these two, these one color have two such opposite? It can make us feel two such opposite ways. Any ideas?

Nick VinZant 12:09

They're kind of the same in some regard, right? Like, it represents warning, but also passion and excitement and differences. Like they're so they're directly opposite emotions, but also kind of the same. Like, for example, not to get into slavery stuff. Like, I love my wife. But I also like her, because she's new to me. She's vibrant, she's life in the same way. Right? So she's dangerous, but enticing in the same way?

Kate Smith 12:42

Well, you're very, you're very it, you've tuned it, you've kind of honed in on what I was sort of part of the explanation, because here's the thing. So when you think about the idea of red being associated with anger or aggression, it makes your heart beat faster, might make you feel a little bit more kind of revved up energy. So they get tangled up in our brain. So it's hard to say is that is the reason we're feeling that way love or anger? Because there's sort of a similar physical response. So red also has the ability to do that momentarily for us.

Nick VinZant 13:20

Are there any other colors that are kind of even if not at that level? But are there high up on that kind of? Oh, yeah, and scale,

Kate Smith 13:28

blue, blue, is that really a great one too, because blue is known to calm us down. And blue can have a very just the opposite effect of read, it can make us feel, take a breath, breathe a little deeper, take a rest. So there's something very calming about it. And the researchers don't know exactly why but part of it they think could be because back in the times when we were working out in fields and outside most of the time, the times we took a break, we did two things we either sat by water, or we sort of laid in the grass on our back and looked up at the sky. Those are times of rest and that got our brain thinking that when we see blue, that those are the times that we're we're calming ourselves down.

Nick VinZant 14:15

Is there any color though that like nothing? We feel nothing in regards to that color?

Kate Smith 14:22

Um, no, no, not that I'm aware of because I can I can give you examples of everything even white people go well what about white? Like, no, I don't think about white. Well, yeah, you do. White is fresh, it's refreshing. It's it's sort of things that are pure, but most importantly to a lot of people. It's the idea of a clean slate. So it's like the in why people that are sometimes overwhelmed or attracted to very minimalist or even white just surroundings is because it's clearing it seems like you know, open possibilities, nothing confrontational. So you can We also see, often the idea of white is being trusted. Although blue is the most trusted color, even grays and neutrals that you might think, yeah, who cares? It's gray. It's beige. But there's the association of stability, a strong foundation. Often when life is upsetting, or we're feeling unstable, we find ourselves more attracted to those neutrals. Because of that feeling of sturdiness and stability. I think people often think it's because we want to make and, you know, we're concerned about finances, let's say that we're attracted to those colors because they're safe. Well, safe, means more than just the fact that they're gonna go with everything and not go out of style, it means that we feel like there's some security there.

Nick VinZant 15:49

So do brands use this kind of color theory, color psychology to basically get us to do stuff?

Kate Smith 15:57

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. It's so studied in it's so interesting to understand your reaction. Now, this is the fourth thing that when I say is, to me is some of the most interesting things. So as buyers, it really shouldn't surprise any of us that color can influence purchasing decisions. But you might be almost taken aback by just how influential color is. So when you look at a new product, or when any consumer looks at a product, they tend to make a decision about that product in 90 seconds or less. And the single most crucial component in that decision is color. Color accounts for roughly, I think about 90% of the initial judgment. So do you think it's influential? Yes. And I'll give you an example. This is one of my favorites, because I just think this is something people every person can relate to. If you were going to go buy a new car, and you had not only the car in mind, but I'm sure you have a color in mind. So let's say you wanted that red sports car, and you show up money in hand ready to buy it, and the only color they had was black. Would you still buy it? Not if you dreamed of red, most people wouldn't they would go somewhere else they would sometimes in certain instances, depending on what it is, they might even switch brands. So there's a big people want things in the color. And the more personal the purchase, the more important it is to the person to have it in their particular choice of color because it says something about you.

Nick VinZant 17:39

That is absolutely true. There are things that I would honestly say my biggest purchasing decisions in regards to car has been based on the color of the car, of course, totally alone, not alone. But like, Well, did they come? Does it come in silver or blue? And if it didn't, I'm not buying it?

Kate Smith 17:59

Mm hmm. You have your cell phone?

Nick VinZant 18:05

Yeah. That's straight, minimalist, black. Yeah, right. Every cell phone that I've ever owned, straight, minimalist, black. Yeah, got everything?

Kate Smith 18:17

Yes. Even down to things that you wouldn't think are that it that that are kind of funny. Things like washer and dryer is years ago, they became sort of a status symbol, they have certain colors. And now people, companies will actually from a brand, let's say a particular brand. A big retailer may ask for a special color, just because they know that if they can only get it from you, people will be likely to come and buy it because he's the same product, but they want your color. They'll come and purchase that from you. Because that's how important that getting the color is.

Nick VinZant 18:54

They'll specifically design it based on what colors they think people will buy. Oh, sure,

Kate Smith 18:59

sure. Yeah. Yeah, people will companies do that. You can even own a color for certain categories of products. So think of Owens Corning owns pink for insulation. So if you go by someplace, it's building a home and you see pink, everybody knows what that is because they're the only company that can make insulation in that color.

Nick VinZant 19:21

So you work with a lot of companies, I guess, kind of describe to me generally like what you do.

Kate Smith 19:26

Well, I've done a lot of things over the years. I work today, mainly with manufacturers, and I work with them specifically on color, but not always choosing color. I used to do more making color choices, color trends, predictions. Today. My main focus is on one thing and one thing I think I do very well, which is explain color in a way that the average consumer can make an excellent color decision.

Nick VinZant 19:53

How did you get into this?

Kate Smith 19:55

Oh, that's another great question. My background is not in interior design like many people Thanks. I have a studio art drawing and painting background. When I got out of college, I had to go to work and actually make a living. And I went to work in IT manufacturing in menswear apparel to begin with, but, and then team sportswear. So I used to do work with the NFL, and do the team uniforms, and those kinds of things and work with the team that worked at Reebok and we outfitted 10 NFL teams and a lot of college teams. And I also did a men's sportswear line. And that's a big place where I honed my color trend forecasting skills.

Nick VinZant 20:36

And the brands that you work with and the manufacturers you work with, like do they endlessly sweat over this and been like, it's going to? Should we take green one? Or green two? Should we take green one? Or green two? Like do they Antec agonize over this? Does it really make a difference? Or is it like, look, people want green? Just Just make it green?

Kate Smith 20:58

Oh, no, it's it's very specific. And we do agonize about it. And people spend a lot of time considering the color and the specific, exact, specific color. But the thing is, is it's kind of good news. Because when I first got into this, well over 30 years ago, maybe closer to 40. I would be working in a company. And sometimes we've spent all this time putting the color palette together and the CEO or the marketing manager or somebody. Yeah, my wife didn't like that one. So we don't want to make that. Like, are you kidding? Because they didn't you know what they didn't understand at that time. Like most people don't know how influential color is and how much goes into thinking about it and making those decisions. And so, but once I think corporations saw how much it could affect the bottom line, they took a lot more notice. So today, yes, it's very, very well thought out. And a green is not just a green, heaven forbid. But I understand that most people wouldn't care so much about putting the energy into finding the difference in kind of the nuance of the color.

Nick VinZant 22:14

But that kind of sounds like the way that it is like brands and agony and weight, agonize over it. And for consumers. It's a snap decision. And like, I don't like that one.

Kate Smith 22:25

You're absolutely right. But here's the thing, when you put in the time to doing the color trend forecasting and figuring it out, I've long said, the best trend forecasters are the ones that are just tuned in and what you're going to want and don't know it. So they're gonna they're going to figure out what the color is that when you see it, you're gonna make that step decision and go, Oh, I love that. That's it? Gosh, I didn't know I needed that. And that particular green.

Nick VinZant 22:56

So then how do you do color forecasting? Right? Like how to trends change in color?

Kate Smith 23:01

Well, there's a lot that goes into it, but I'll try to simplify it. And just a couple of just a couple of ideas. One, there's a lot about what's going on in the world. So as I always say the issues that keep you awake at night, so whatever it is, are we worried about the economy, a lot of people today are worried about the economy, are we worried about are we gonna have a job, there's all these things that concern us. And based on what's concerning us in our mind, it's going to influence what we want to surround ourselves with. And the things that affect color affect everything in the world. It's no different. So if you think of it this way, we're always trying to get in balance. So if we're feeling like we need, we're concerned about one thing, what color makes us feel a little better, helps bring us back into balance. So if you said, we talked about it earlier, I'm low on energy. What might I like? Well, you might like a bright, exuberant color, like the attracted to red or yellow or something, or you might be so out of energy that you want something like blue just go or white? Just take me away from it all. It really is almost that simple. The other thing that affects color trends are where, what's everyone looking at? So when I say that it's what's going on in the world, that we're all suddenly turning our attention. I think a good example of this would be a Olympics. So when the Olympics are in a particular country for a year or two beforehand, we learn a lot about that country, we see little snippets about their culture, and we see things that we like, and so when the Olympics were in London, let's say everywhere you saw that keeps calm and carry on, keep, you know, whatever. And they made 1000s of variations, that little slogan because it came out of something that came out. It was a very UK kind of thing. When we were looking at China, the colors from China like red and gold became more popular in the palette. We cherry pick what we like about something. And then the last thing is just simply technology. So what's cool, what's new? What can we do now in color that we haven't been able to do before. So that will also also influence. But the what we're looking at can even be the movies. And one of the best examples of that is when that acid green became very popular. It was based on Shrek. So when the movie Shrek came out shortly thereafter, everybody wanted acid green. And we thought it was going to be for kids and sports and rec, but didn't even want it to home. People. Just everybody just seemed to like that color.

Nick VinZant 25:36

That's so interesting. So okay, let's hypothetical situation. It's 2023. And the economy is going down. So like you would look at the news that's happening today, or at that time and say, well, people think of green and money. So we don't want to make green in 2024.

Kate Smith 25:58

People do associate greed with money. In fact, it's, in one study, it was the favorite color of millionaires was green. Now, I don't know that it was just coincidental. But my son's favorite color is green. So I have big hopes for him. But we do associate something when we're feeling that way. And let's take it back to about 2008. Remember, 2008 people weren't feeling great about the economy. Initially, the very first reaction was fun, bright colors. And I used to joke I said, Well, when you can't look at your portfolio to make you feel good, you got to have something surrounding you that makes you feel good. But that becomes short lived for maybe a season or two. And then we start to look for those neutrals, those stabilities those stabilizing colors that can make us feel like okay, it's everything's gonna be okay.

Nick VinZant 26:52

It's so interesting to me. It's fast. So you're

Kate Smith 26:55

gonna think you're gonna totally think about your choices

Nick VinZant 26:57

all the time. I would like every single choice that I make. Right? Like, is it because I like that or because I like that color? And I honestly don't know which one it is. Most people know, right? Yeah. Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. Bring them on. Let's start controversial. Who has more of an eye for color or pays more attention to color men or women?

Kate Smith 27:25

Oh, it's not controversial. It's scientifically proven that women do

Nick VinZant 27:29

buy a lot or buy like a little quite a

Kate Smith 27:31

bit. The women's vote vote and here's why you remember I said earlier about vocabulary the vocabulary for color for women is much broader. We have many many more words that we regularly use for color and there's definitely a connection between the words you use and how interested in while you see it.

Nick VinZant 27:51

I've heard the same thing about women and smells because women are generally more associated and just historically with you know the cooking and the cleaning that they're generally around more scent mouths and that by for my wife she makes the choices of what kind of things that we're getting so she's looking at colors much more than I am

Kate Smith 28:11

that's yeah it is in in fact scent is something that's very closely associated with colors and right now talking about not being aware of colors I don't want to get off track because it's not my exact you know it's not really my total specialty but I'm something I'm very interested in is sent marketing and almost everywhere you go into a hotel, a cruise, certain stores even Starbucks, it's all piped in sent so you probably thought Starbucks always smelled like coffee just on their own but Starbucks has to cover the breakfast sandwiches the food that the mass that smell in pipe in I think some coffee smell.

Nick VinZant 28:49

Does the hue matter? Like how much does the hue matter in something right so example this blue, blue or blue creates this kind of an emotion but is the light blue a different emotion than dark blue? Like does the hue matter? Yes,

Kate Smith 29:07

that's kind of the act like you will say nuance of color. So one particular blue would create this feeling and then if you change it make it lighter, darker, more grain all of those little changes are very specific to how we react to something and green might be an example where green in a springy green that's a little bit yellow could make us think of things that are fresh in growth and oftentimes even financial growth that's why h&r Block used that for their little square for their for their logo there was that that idea but take it a little bit more yellow or murky and pretty soon it's slimy and scent drab. Yeah. So there's there's those changes in how how things make you feel where you can Take it a little bit, slightly bluer and all of a sudden it's very calming and beachy And so yes, definitely the the nuances of the color can change how we think about it and how we react to it.

Nick VinZant 30:11

Favorite, what's your favorite color?

Kate Smith 30:14

Oh, I absolutely have a favorite people think that's like saying I have a favorite child, which I have that too, because I only have one. So I do have a favorite child and I have a favorite color. It's blue, green. any shade of kind of blue green, turquoise teal, is my favorite. But I have a confession. I was born on the cusp of Aquarius the water bearer and Pisces the fish. So how can I not like a watery hue?

Nick VinZant 30:38

Most overused color, like oh, they gotta stop. Everybody's gonna stop paying their house, they gotta stop making

Kate Smith 30:45

people said gray recently because so many people liked it. And I think the thing is any color that lots and lots of people use all at the same time. So back in the day, we had the turquoise and chocolate brown trend that people seem to everyone probably before you baby before your decorating days. But it was so popular that I used to call it choc chocolate. I gave it it's only his own name. He was such a popular trend. And then at some point, people just got tired of it. They're like no, I don't want though I don't want that color. I don't want that combination. Now with gray being so popular, a lot of people are saying okay, get over it enough gray already. And let's move on to more colors.

Nick VinZant 31:26

Color. That is fantastic. But must be used sparingly. Like, Oh, that's great. Like, to me, it's like hot sauce. Like I like it every once in a while.

Kate Smith 31:39

There's there's not that the answer to that isn't specific to a particular color as much as it is to you yourself. So I'd say a lot of times people will see something new and often it is a brighter color. So let's go back to that acity green, great color. But do you want your hole? Do you want every wall in your house painted that color? No. But could you use it in some accessory and it'd be really fun and stand out and be great. I think that's true of everything. And the other thing is, is sometimes what people call those ugly colors are exactly what you need to have a little bit of to break up all the rest. Because we're always by compare, we're always kind of seeing color and comparison. So often sort of those murky, your neutral colors will make other colors stand out. So it just depends on what that is for you. But I would just say if you see something, a color that hasn't been in sort of your world or your something you've been interested in before and all of a sudden you're very attracted to it. Don't go out and buy lots of stuff and and buy one thing. Usually we like similar colors through our life and just add them a little bit. Like we can like something for a moment and then be over it. But then there's those other things that we just like our whole life.

Nick VinZant 32:58

I like this question. It's maybe you can answer it. Maybe you can't. Why do they only make men's shirts in blue and white?

Kate Smith 33:07

Oh, well. That's a good question. But it's absolutely not not true. And here's why I say it's not I don't remember if it was the US or UK where there was a study done and it was a while ago, where pink actually overtook blue is the second most popular shirt to white. And in the sense was then edged out by purple. Lavender.

Nick VinZant 33:31

What is your least favorite color?

Kate Smith 33:34

Oh, I actually don't have a least favorite. But here's what I will say about that is there's no bad colors. There's no colors I don't think are favorites. But there are some unfortunate color combinations.

Nick VinZant 33:46

What's the best NFL uniform color wise?

Kate Smith 33:50

Oh, good question. You know when I got so burned out on sports teams, I haven't been paying as much attention lately. I was around the time when they changed San Francisco 14 hours. In fact, it was my team that worked on that to change it from red and this kind of unattractive khaki tan with some green in it to the current colors which are a better tan and that burgundy uniform. And I still love that combination. I loved it when we did it. I loved it today. There's some other good ones out that is

Nick VinZant 34:20

probably to me the the Seahawks I think it's good to see like I did

Kate Smith 34:24

Seahawks as well. Yeah, I worked on that. I mean, I've been to that stadium many times basically it's all you know, it's just that they're just good colors. I can't take credit for it. It's just the like I say the color Hall of Fame. That would be one of the things that I worked on.

Nick VinZant 34:38

I feel like the best color combinations are always something different. Something traditional but a little different. Like I think like I think of the San Francisco 40 Niners words that solid read that oh everybody's likes read but it's a little different read and then it's the different like they do have cool looking uniform. So you did a good job.

Kate Smith 34:57

Thanks. I'm not sure they're exactly the same ones I worked up They are called uniforms. Hawks, and Seahawks, the green and blue. Always a classic. I mean, it's just, you know, at one time, there used to be saying blue and green should never be seen seen together. But that's the earth. That's everything I happen to love that combination

Nick VinZant 35:19

that kind of leads us into this question who makes colors better nature or us?

Kate Smith 35:24

Oh nature. It's even though we make some awesome colors. But, boy, if I ever want to get inspired, all you have to do is really go out. Look around and look closely at some of the colors and the combinations and nuances of color. It's amazing,

Nick VinZant 35:39

best named color, worst named color, like,

Unknown Speaker 35:43

oh,

Kate Smith 35:45

well, there's one that I think a lot of your listeners may know, I'm not a waitress which was a nail color by OPI, it's because it was a record red nail polish color. But there's so many good, there's so many great names. It's I think it's not so much a bad name as much as the idea that the name can sway your impression of the color, again, to what you even see in it. So if you reach here to see your name, it can almost change because you're looking for what you want to see.

Nick VinZant 36:18

Can you walk into someone's house and tell what kind of person they are by the colors they've chosen?

Kate Smith 36:25

Yes, absolutely. You're making me laugh. Because in I did something for House Beautiful magazine. And they just sent me 10 pictures of people's houses and say what does it say about them? And I thought, Okay, I'll give it a shot. And I sent back what I you know what I thought what it said to me about the person, and the editor in chief sent me back a letter and say, Oh, my gosh, I am blown away by this. Now, I didn't know why. Because I didn't know where those rooms came from who they were what he knew, I didn't know what they were, I just had a picture, and the design and the color choices. And then the magazine comes out and I read all the articles. Well, he already knew what I didn't know, which was people talked about themselves and their houses and everything. The information was so absolutely on target it even frightened me was like, oh my god, this is amazing. Is

Nick VinZant 37:25

what what color choice says the most about somebody?

Kate Smith 37:29

Well, I think it's the your personal items. So I wouldn't even say necessarily Clothes, clothes can say something. But there's a lot of things that can influence what kind of clothes we choose. And some people don't even think that much about it. But the things like if you choose a particular color for your car, for your cell phone for the things that are part of your everyday life that you feel reflect your personality, those say the most if you've taken the time to decorate your home, it says a tremendous amount about you just by your color choices. And the way you've the amount of color the way you've used things, it just says it can say a lot about you.

Nick VinZant 38:07

Hardest color to create.

Kate Smith 38:10

I think the hardest color Well there's a couple of things that people might not think of because they're probably thinking of something really like a cool color. But black and white, it's very hard to you because you can't really get pure white and white, believe it or not even for house paint only came I think it's in the 40s it became popular because before that there was not a good white paint. And then black to get this true, they call now vanta black, a very, very deep dark black because black, just by the nature of pigments will actually have either a little bit of blue or it'll seem a little green. It's it's not so easy to make pure colors. And then the ones that are frustrating for people are things like beiges and grays because they sometimes can look different than what they appear. Once you you might when you're holding something in isolation, even white. You can think oh yeah, it's just white. Put that next to three other whites and you'll realize that some of them are a little yellow, some of them might be a little blue, some of them a little more gray. So only by comparison, can we see colors. And so oftentimes, that's why people get frustrated. Now I just happen to like making cool colors. So I'm with whoever asked because that's probably what they're thinking is like, how could you make like fuchsia or hot pink or something fun? They're actually oftentimes easier to make than the neutrals.

Nick VinZant 39:37

What what do you think is the future of color? Like what's the Where do you think this goes? What do you think the hot new trend is?

Kate Smith 39:45

What you started to talk about trends a little bit before and I will tell you that most trends are forecast out for years. So I think the some of the longer ones are like autos, the color that they're going to make cars are from five to seven years from now is what they're looking at right now. Oh, is what the color will be popular in five to seven years. So I that's generally how three years kind of minimum of what we're looking out at. In fact, when I did nothing but color trend forecasting, I'd be so thinking so far in the future, that when I'd be in a certain I'd see something I'm like, Oh, is that now, it's now finally, I forgot about that color. Because we talked about that two years ago. Because we're working, you know, the manufacturing cycle, and so forth. But I think the future of color in general, trends will always be important, because we just want to try to figure out what people are gonna want to surround themselves with, but it's less about trendy. And it's more about finding what works for you. And just being be more confident and feeling like you can do your own thing. And I see many younger people feeling totally confident about making decisions and not agonizing it, about it in the way that we used to is it going to be liked? Is it on trend? Is it the right color? No, because there is no longer a right or wrong, anything. When it comes to color. It's what you It's you understanding how to take that vision out of your head and have that show up either in your home or whatever, however you're using it. And I think that's going to become more. I think it's going to become more and more true. And we're going to use it to express ourselves in a lot of different ways.

Nick VinZant 41:25

How do you feel that I don't like the color khaki? I've always hated that color.

Kate Smith 41:29

Is it the name or the color?

Nick VinZant 41:31

I think it's actually the name.

Unknown Speaker 41:32

I think about it.

Kate Smith 41:34

It's not a good name. Yeah. Khaki is cookie. Well, it also Kathy, for those callers that have Yeah, can have a lot of a lot of variations, and many of them are unattractive. So I can understand that.

Nick VinZant 41:47

Khaki is the worst, worst name color. I'm gonna go ahead and claim that.

Kate Smith 41:52

Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that is a pretty a pretty bad one. It probably is not. Maybe it's not a great color on you either, is it?

Nick VinZant 41:59

No. And it reminds me of middle management. Yes, yes.

Linguist Daniel Hieber

Why do we speak the way we do? Is it something we learn or is it part of our DNA? Linguist Daniel Hieber studies the world’s languages. We talk linguistics, the first languages, the great vowel shift, race and language and the only real curse word left. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Letters of the Alphabet.

Daniel Hieber: 02:15ish

Pointless: 49:13ish

Top 5: 01:06:45

https://www.tiktok.com/@linguisticdiscovery (Daniel Hieber TikTok)

https://LinguisticDiscovery.com (Daniel Hieber Website)

https://twitter.com/LingDiscovery (Daniel Hieber Twitter)

Interview with Linguist Daniel Hieber

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the past, present and future of language and the alphabet, best letters,

Daniel Hieber 0:24

there are patterns that occur in language that you may not even realize most of what, you know, when you know how to speak a language, you don't know that, you know, it's very subconscious, people have been trying to manage language for as long as there's been language. Like if you go back to Latin times, there's people complaining about how the young people speak. And it's because language is constantly changing. And so people are trying to impose their particular ideas about how society should be through language. But then over time, those endings dropped out, and you're left with that vowel change. So what was originally foot became fed, and that became feet. And once the Great Vowel Shift happened,

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is an expert in the world's languages, where they came from, what certain words originally meant, and sounded like, and why it is that we talk the way that we do. Because it turns out that there are so many things that we do, that we don't even realize we're doing. And there's big questions about, is this something that we have learned? Or is this a fundamental part of who we are our DNA? This is linguist, Daniel Heber, quick note, because we talk about some things that, at least for me, that I had never thought of. There were parts of this interview that I had to kind of go back and listen to, again, to really realize what some of the things he talks about, mean, what is linguistics?

Daniel Hieber 2:16

Linguistics is the scientific study of language. Scientific means that we approach language like any other natural phenomenon, language is something that you can describe, you can study, there are rules to it. And I'm not just talking like grammatical rules, there are like, there are patterns that occur in language that you may not even realize most of what, you know, when you know how to speak a language. You don't know that, you know, it's very subconscious. So we as linguist try to make that subconscious conscious. We try and figure out like, what are those underlying patterns you're not even aware of?

Nick VinZant 2:50

What are the things that I don't know that I don't know about language?

Daniel Hieber 2:54

Really easy example is how to do plurals in English. If you have saved a little toy, and this toy is called a wog. Just imagine it looks like a blue peep, for example, like, you know, candy, the peeps. Yeah. So you've got one blog, what do you call it when you have two of them? Words? Right, exactly. And if you notice, the way you pronounce that plural, is, it's actually a little bit more of a Z sound than an s sound. So if you put it in a sentence, it becomes really apparent. So you can say, like the lugs are running, you don't say the lugs are running? Right?

Nick VinZant 3:29

Like flow? Like I have multiple floors. And yeah,

Daniel Hieber 3:33

exactly. Perfect. Yeah, precisely. And so there's, there's a rule that there's actually three different forms of the plural. In English, there's the you pronounce that as an s after what we call voiceless consonants where your voice box isn't vibrating. And so that's after like a P, T, or k. So you say cats, but after a voiced consonant, where your vocal folds are vibrating, you pronounce it as Z, say dogs. And then there's a third variation of it, which happens after what we call Sibilance. So after like an S, or a Z, or a schwa sound, and so that will get you I always use fishes as an example. But people get mad at me about that one, because they don't think fishes is a real world word it is it's the plural. It's when you have multiple species of fish, but any other word that ends in like a Z or an S, would do this. So it mazes and so if you notice, we stick a vowel on there. You don't say maize, you say maize is and so that's a rule about how you form plurals in English that every native speaker of English knows without even knowing that they know

Nick VinZant 4:36

it. So where do we get that from then we just learned from watching other people or talking to other people,

Daniel Hieber 4:42

almost everything we learn about language we learn long before we get to school, we just learn it in the home. So by the time you get to school and people start yelling at you for doing grammar wrong, there, it's too late. You already learned how to speak the dialect you're gonna speak for pretty much the rest of your life. Most people's language doesn't really change too much. After early childhood,

Nick VinZant 5:02

you mean we can't even like if, okay, so for example, like I've bashed it into my head to say, it's going well, rather than it's going good, but we totally

Daniel Hieber 5:11

roll that somebody made up and shoved down your throat.

Nick VinZant 5:15

That's what it means when I've looked at most language or most grammar. I'm like, somebody just made this up. It's not like some fundamental law of the universe, like gravity exists, right? Yeah. Like, what, why do we get these things? Is it really just somebody you know, like, Benjamin Newton back in 1700, decided that you know what, that that's a coma, there's

Daniel Hieber 5:34

honestly, sometimes that is exactly what happens. So a really good example of this was Daniel Webster, he was trying to make a kind of more Americanized version of English for Americans. So he instituted a lot of spelling reforms. He instituted a lot of vocabulary, suggestions, and real and people really tried to impose that on children and so on. Sometimes it works. But for the most part, it doesn't, because language isn't something that you can manage from the top down. It's something that is it's a complex adaptive system. It's like the economy or something. It's something that, you know, emerges from all these conversations and interactions people have. But there are there are those rules, though, that you're talking about as though it's like, it's not, you know, like the law of gravity. It's just that those rules are more conventions. And those rules are things like the plurals I was talking about,

Nick VinZant 6:22

is that because that's just the best way to do it, or like, our brain works like this. And the only thing I could think, like put the noun first, like, that's how our brain works. Like, where does it come from?

Daniel Hieber 6:36

Yeah, it's a whole bunch of different competing factors. And in fact, this is one of the very fundamental debates in linguistics, they're kind of two camps in linguistics. One is called the generator vist camp. And they're the ones that think that there is a core part of grammar that is actually genetically inherited. So for example, like the idea that subjects should go first is something that they think is core to all languages and even in languages, that the subject doesn't appear first, the subject of your second or last or something like that. They say that underlying the, it's a subject first language, where and then there's the functionalist, which is a camp that I sit in. And we see that language is something that is shaped by all of the different cognitive skills that we have going on at once. So it's shaped by our ability to read people's intentions, our ability to have, you know, a complex, hierarchical representation of ideas, limitations on cognition, also, the fact that like, when you're talking about something, you you have to talk about something in time, and so you tend to have to put the topic first. So, about 60% of the world's languages follow a subject, object, verb, word order. So you would say like, the the dog, the man, that would be the equivalent of an English of the dog with the man. But English doesn't do that English is subject, verb object. So English is a minority pattern. And so the question is, why 60% of the world's languages, why not all of them, and their other language ends match. So you're wearing a Pacific Northwest shirt, there's a language in the Pacific North northwest called Machame, north, which always puts the verb first. And whatever you're talking about, whether it's like a noun, quote, or a verb that turned it into a verb, and they put that first the verb is always the topic. So

Nick VinZant 8:23

would that be like the difference between I am moving versus moving? I am.

Daniel Hieber 8:28

Yeah. Or it gets even crazier with neutral north. So if you wanted to say like, I am a man, there's literally you take the the net of the stem, that means man, and you turn it into a verb. So it's literally like I am Manning. Does

Nick VinZant 8:41

this matter, though? As long as you're speaking to the same group of people? Right, right, learn

Daniel Hieber 8:48

the conventions of language, right? So and what, unfortunately, a lot of people think, though, is that was that we do all share exactly the same way of speaking. And the fact is, is that language is incredibly diverse, like, this notion of like standard English is really kind of a myth. Nobody actually speaks Standard English. We all speak, everybody speaks a dialect. If you give people a map of the United States, or whatever country and you say draw the dialect areas, they'll draw a bunch of different regions and the label them and there'll always be one region that they label that they wind up calling normal, or average or standard. And sure enough, it'll be the region that they're from.

Nick VinZant 9:29

I guess, I always just thought of languages that like different languages all worked the same way. It's just that instead of saying cat, I said, Gato and Spanish, but they fundamentally work differently.

Daniel Hieber 9:41

Oh, incredibly. So I mean, there's so much diversity in the world's languages. I'll just give you like a tiny hint of some of the differences. So one of my favorites is a Navajo. There are 13 different verbs for any action having to do with handling an object or or an object being put or placed somewhere or giving or taking an object, depending on the shape and size of the object. So if I wanted to say that this pen is sitting there, I would say, Sit T. But if I wanted to say that this piece of piece of paper is sitting here, I would say, so, if I wanted to say that this kind of roundish thing is sitting here, I would say, Ah,

Nick VinZant 10:27

how does something like that come about? Because to me like, well, that's a waste of time, like, why did we figure out, you know what I mean? But like we curated 13 different words for this, but how does something like that evolve? Where people would have so many different ways to basically talk about something that doesn't seem necessary? Like no, get the bigger one?

Daniel Hieber 10:47

Right? So the the fact is, is that language isn't really logical, it really has nothing to do with kind of what's efficient, except that people are always trying to make language more efficient. It's sometimes it's just kind of random, like what occurs in one language versus, versus another.

Nick VinZant 11:04

Do we know what was kind of the first one?

Daniel Hieber 11:07

No, and that is matter of fact, that was such a controversial question, that the French Academy banned all discussion of the origins of language for about 100 years, because people were getting into such bickering fights about it, and academia, we have a better and better idea today, we, we still don't know the timeframe, it could be anywhere from like 100,000 years ago to 40,000 years ago, that it evolved. And, and we can't, we can't reconstruct that far back in history, we can reconstruct older languages based on present ones we can, we can literally look at modern day languages, compare them. And using evidence from those languages, wind the clock back and figure out what the earlier versions of these languages used to look like without having any written record of them. So and we can confirm this, because if you take like Italian and Spanish, and French and compare them, and do this process, use these techniques we have, and you wind the clock back and you reconstruct them, or what earlier language they all seem to come from, you reconstruct Latin. And then of course, we have lots of documents in Latin. And we can confirm that that works. So but we can only do that back to like, the farthest back, we've really been able to do that with certainty is probably in the order of like six, maybe 8000 years. So if language evolved 40 or 100,000 years ago, there's no way we're getting to it.

Nick VinZant 12:28

The farthest back we can get is essentially Latin, in

Daniel Hieber 12:32

fact we can get is what's called proto indo European, so less so proto indo European was this group of languages that evolved probably in the Caucasus around Anatolia, Sumerian, kind of Eastern Europe. But there's some, some debate about that. And they spread and evolved into the Indo Aryan languages in India. And so that includes Hindi, and then it evolved into Sans, and also Sanskrit over in India. And then in Europe, it evolved into the Celtic languages. So that's, you know, that's going to be modern Irish, and some of the, like the gaelic languages in France before the Romans took over. And then it also evolved into Latin and Greek. So English and Hindi are related. They're all part of this huge family of languages called indo European. It's like 200, some languages, at least, that all descend from this one proto language, and it's just branched out and spread out over time.

Nick VinZant 13:25

Is there any holdovers that we can like trace directly to that, like we call a book a book, because

Daniel Hieber 13:31

we call a book of work because it originally, so it's related to the word Beach, there's this common process, a sound change process and the world's languages where a K sound will become like a chest sound, or a schwa sound. It's called dumb palletization. And so originally, it was related to the word beach because books were made from beach trees. And so those two words go all the way back, I believe, all the way to the proto indo European word for beech tree, I believe.

Nick VinZant 14:00

If you have an answer to this, I would be amazed. Do we have any idea like what the first like, what was the first word that we ever figured out? Like, oh, that's though, the first word we found, I would imagine it'd be like fire.

Daniel Hieber 14:14

Well, you know, it's interesting you say that, because there is this notion of core vocabulary vocabulary that is more resistant to change. And for awhile, it was really speculative. But they recently did some great work actually figuring out like looking at a bunch of languages and which words were least likely to change over time. And we now have that list. And sure enough fires on it. And one of them one of those kind of core words is fire out other words, I believe, like, mom and milk and water, like land, earth, I think are other good examples of that. So now there's this idea of like, those are the words you kind of want to look for in a language. I don't know exactly. Which length which words they were able to reconstruct first. I believe it was 1786. That was the first time that William James was able to kind of hypothesize that all these languages were related. And that really sparked Modern Linguistics, people started becoming very interested in how languages change. And because of that, they had to figure out how languages work in order to understand how they can change. So it really was this kind of Modern Renaissance and language study.

Nick VinZant 15:16

Looking back on it, are you surprised at how similar they are? Or that, I guess, do we have more or less than you would think that we would have

Daniel Hieber 15:25

I'm, it's more, because if you think about it, like this one would have started as just like one community, like maybe one nomadic tribe, that and probably the reason they were successful is because they were one of the first communities to get horse technology. And we know, like, we can reconstruct words for like cart and horse all the way back to proto indo European. And also, other things like we know, we can reconstruct the word for be like honeybees in particular. And at the time, honeybees were not spread around the world. And so that helped us pinpoint exactly where we think the Indo Europeans came from. But so yeah, they they would have just been one community that was very successful and sort of spreading over time. And then also, they might like, they might have conquered their way through Europe. But it might have also been the case that their culture, what you know, they were successful trading culture, and they were able to spread a lot of their language through multilingualism. And people learned it. So we're, you know, we're not 100% sure how it spread. But yeah, the fact that you went from one community to hundreds of different languages, like is always kind of amazing. The other thing that amazes me. So if you look at biological species, there are a lot of parallels between biological species and languages. And with biological species, the majority of the species on the planet that have ever lived, are now extinct, they're gone. It's like 90% of all this species on the planet are gone. So throughout history, all the way back to the dinosaurs and whatnot. And language is kind of like that, too. Except that, you know, all of the languages we have today descended from original languages and things. But specifically in terms of the vocabulary. If you you can take like one word from indo European, like, if you took the word for one, there are, I think, in the case of one, there's at least maybe 100 words in English, that originally derived from the word for one. So for example, the word a and an, that used to be one you used to say, like, I saw one man, but you didn't pronounce it one at the time, at the time, prime time, it was pronounced en en, man. And eventually, that n started dropping out before consonant so became our man. Now, that's just one example the word 11. The word 11 literally meant one leftover. So it was originally it was on layover in and the layover and is related to a word for left to like to leave to leave or leave behind. And on in front of it was originally one. So there's, like, I think about 100 words, at least, that come from just this one proto indo European root, and English. And so you're thinking like, why does it seem like everything just goes back to this one word? Well, it's because a lot of the vocabulary that used to exist in these languages has fallen out of use. And so just this tiny percent of like, tiny proportion of proto indo European and now accounts for all of the vocabulary of all of these hundreds of languages, it's like this was the successful vocabulary, in a sense, that kind of made it through history.

Nick VinZant 18:31

Is there any kind of a timeframe? Or you could say, like, alright, well, we know that every 100 years or 500 years or 1000 years, this language will be completely different, even though it is the same language, like I'm thinking of English, right? And I went back to 1700 and be like, That's English. Like yeah,

Daniel Hieber 18:48

it's not if you go back to old English, it's it's unrecognizable. The Lord's Prayer and Old English sounds like follow the UI have to set out and health and I'm, like, you've like no one understands that it's totally different. Old English had all sorts of cool, like suffixes and prefixes that we don't have anymore used to have like 10 Different forms of every now and depending on whether it was the subject of the object, or the indirect object, and we lost all that says, like, totally changed. There was this one linguist, more Swadesh was very famous, and he had that exact same question. And he thought that you could kind of time how long it took languages to evolve and how far back languages separated from each other by comparing their their core vocabulary. And so this is called glottal chronology and it's totally kind of debunked. Now we it just turns out you can't really do that. So like if you look at Icelandic Icelandic grammar hasn't really changed much in the past 1000 years. So pronunciation definitely has. But like a lot of the grammatical constructions are pretty much the same. Whereas English you know, English has been through all sorts of contact with other people and borrowing and things so English is complete. We changed, it looks nothing like it did 1000 years ago. So the pace of change for these two languages is totally different. So we can't really like predict how quickly they change all of the top most frequent words in English or Germanic origin. But the top 1000 most frequent words of English, most of them are actually from French or Latin because we borrowed those words. So it's, it's kind of interesting that the core vocabulary has stayed, like, like true to English origins, you know, true to the Germanic origins of English. And then everything else has been all those borrowing. So 60% of English vocabulary is from French or Latin.

Nick VinZant 20:36

So how does this like process work in the sense that all right, so you'd have this initial language? And then let's just say one guy and his family go over the mountains?

Daniel Hieber 20:48

Yep. And that's called the accurate? That's basically

Nick VinZant 20:51

right. But like, how does it go from like, alright, this guy who went over the mountains, he's now decided that I'm going to call cat Gato. Right? And that, how does that then, trend become a whole new language over time, we're like, nope, they've now changed the names for so many things that it is now a new language entirely.

Daniel Hieber 21:15

So oftentimes, it's not even so much about changing the words for things. So that obviously is a big factor. But the things that people really have a lot of trouble with, over time, wind up being sound changes, so cat, and Gato is a great example. So those two words are related to each other. If you think about a que sound like in, I know, we spell it with a C, but it's a K sound for cat. And you think about a g sound for Gato, both of those sounds are pronounced in the same part of your throat and the back of your throat there and the vieler.

Nick VinZant 21:44

Yeah, I can actually feel it in the same place. Now I think about it.

Daniel Hieber 21:48

And the only difference between those, like we were talking about earlier is the different whether your vocal folds are vibrating. And so what happened is in Spanish speakers just started for some reason or another voicing vibrating the vocal folds to that continent. And it probably just started as like a subtle variation. You know, some people just kind of did it as like a, like slight accent thing. And it just kind of drifted like a lot of language is just kind of random drift in that direction. And then, or it's other, but other times, there'll be like reasons and pressures for it. So in a lot of languages, if you have a voiceless sound like a t between two vowels, it will become voiced. So like the, in Spanish, the ending Oddo, a do so like, you know, I've lado spoken that D I believe was originally a t. And then it became voice because it was sitting between two vowels. So sometimes there are pressures, like if you're voicing your vocal folds on both on either side of a sound, there's more pressure for that sound to also be voiced in the middle to and you can understand, like, why that would happen. But sometimes it's just kind of random. There's this great thing in English, that's called the Great Vowel Shift. It's quite the adventure English went on. And if you if you turn your head, and you imagine, I'm going to keep speaking this way, to the extent that I can't, if you turn your head and you imagine, like a side profile of your face, right? Where you pronounce the vowels depends on where your tongue is in the mouth. So you can kind of picture this kind of like, sort of trapezoidal area in the mouth for your pronounced different sounds right? So English started slowly shifting where we pronounced vowels in the mouth. So the word book, for example, used to be bulk. And that's why we spell it to this day with two O's. But over time, that vowel shifted, and as your tongue started moving up in the mouth, and was book instead, or sorry, no, not one, that one actually centered. So but what and what was interesting is, when these vowels change, they started moving into the space of other vowels. And so those vowels had to move. And so this is what's called the chain shift all of these vowels, like all of the vowels in English, where we pronounced them in the mouth just kind of rotated. And this is called the Great Vowel Shift. And the really, like pretty, I don't know, I think it's kind of hilarious thing about this. Is this happened right after English spelling kind of got standardized. So we the printing press comes in the 1400s. We start printing books, printers start having standard spellings for words, for maybe the first time ever, they start standardizing this stuff, and then the Great Vowel Shift Happens and screws it all up.

Nick VinZant 24:25

Is that why all of our words look alike? But that's not the way that I would think that we say it. So we essentially say words differently than what they actually are read

Daniel Hieber 24:35

and write. Yeah, other languages have a much clearer correspondence between the letter and the sound. But English and it's not arbitrary in English, but there's just a lot more complexity in English to that correspondence.

Nick VinZant 24:48

So the Oh thing use Can you do that? What like what were the main vowels

Daniel Hieber 24:53

so it used to be pronounced like they were spelled. So book was Bo Can, feet was fit. And so actually, here's a good example. So foot and feet. The reason why we have a weird plural for some of those nouns is because English used to have like I was talking about different endings on nouns to indicate what a noun was doing in the sentence. So whether it was the subject of the sentence or the object, whatever. And sometimes that ending on the noun would be like an e sound. And that ending on the noun would start affecting the sounds before it. So the plural of foot used to be foot, but it was 40 with an E at the end of it. And speakers started kind of anticipating that E and it started affecting that vowel before it so became 50. But then over time, those endings dropped out, and you're left with that vowel change. So what was originally for two became fed. And that became fi and once the Great Vowel Shift happened.

Nick VinZant 26:02

But we would we recognize it right? Like if you came from 800. And you've like, fed, what, what are you saying? Right? That's feed now it's feed now dude, like get with that? Give it a Yeah. This is how language is right.

Daniel Hieber 26:17

And so now you have the the reason we consider Old English and Middle English and modern English to be we have separate labels for them, is because they're not mutually intelligible. If you were to jump back to the Great Vowel Shift are right before you wouldn't, you'd have to learn the language like a second language.

Nick VinZant 26:34

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted question? Yeah, absolutely, of course, hardest language to learn, easiest language to learn.

Daniel Hieber 26:43

Yeah, I'll give the disappointing answer. It really depends on the language you already speak. If you speak in Indo European language, and you want to learn another indo European language, it's a lot easier than if you speak in Indo European language, and you want to learn Navajo. tonal languages are hard for some people, other people the very easy they pick up on so tone is just pitch. It's just melody, just like in a song. But there's so there's one important principle that all linguists really abide by, which is that no language is really any more complex or simple than others, like certain parts, certain features of languages can be more complex, but they're usually balanced out by simplicity and other areas.

Nick VinZant 27:22

It's so it's like, what's an example of a tonal language,

Daniel Hieber 27:26

Mandarin is the famous example. So Chinese is, I believe, a five five tone system. So there's this famous example of the word Ma, which I believe you say with like a high tone is horse a mA. And if it's like a rising tone, it means mother. So you want to be careful not to confuse those, and there's like four other ones for it as well. But Navajo is a tonal language. And that one's simple. It just has a high tone, and a low tone. So every every vowel is either a high pitch or a low pitch. So the way you say hello, and Navajo is yacht day, and you can hear my that kind of elevated pitch. It's like yeah, it's like high level. There's a lot of languages in Africa, Bantu languages, like related to Swahili that are tonal. And yeah, it's just a matter of kind of the melody on the words.

Nick VinZant 28:15

Most Efficient language, and I think what they mean by that is like, what language can you say the most? Without saying the most eye? Is that one that you like? Oh, that one's? They got right to it.

Daniel Hieber 28:26

Yeah, well, so it's actually kind of interesting. Some of the stuff that you were suggesting earlier, might not be very efficient in language, actually, is really efficient, because it packages a ton of information. Like if you take a verb and Navajo, there's so much information in there about the position, the location, the direction, the the kind of makeup of the action, whether it was a habitual or a static thing that happened once like all that's packed into this one word, and you just can communicate it very efficiently that way. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 28:56

that's, that's interesting. Okay, I may ask this question or make this point terribly. But I've always feel felt like language is inherently confusing, because what one person thinks something means isn't actually what it might mean, or what the other person thinks that it means. So for example, I always think of the word like decimate, well, it was decimated, right? But that literally means reduced by a power of like, 10%. Exactly. So it's not decimated, if it's destroyed,

Daniel Hieber 29:23

well, so this is, so this is very natural language change, like so the the historical meaning of a word is not necessarily the current meaning of a word, right? So no, very, very few people unless you've got you know, you've had the chance to learn this fun fact, realize that decimate used to mean 1/10 of it's related to decimal and things like that. So what happens is, you start using a word for a kind of metaphorically or figuratively, and over time that use become so common that people start learning the figurative use of the word As the literal use of the word, and that's what happened with decimate, and like literal, exactly, literally, is now becoming figuratively. And here's the cool thing about literally literal, the meaning that everyone says is the literal meaning of literally today used to be it's figurative meaning literally originally meant by the letter or having to do with letters or writing. And over time that became figuratively used to mean like, you know, like exactly as said, and then now we're changing it again, to actually mean figuratively, I mean, the reverse.

Nick VinZant 30:38

So we just keep switching it around a little

Daniel Hieber 30:41

common, that's language change that happens to everything.

Nick VinZant 30:45

What is it? Like? Is there any examples that you can think of, in which a language didn't have a word for something?

Daniel Hieber 30:52

Oh, sure, all the time. Um, the important thing to kind of realize with that, though, is is doesn't really matter. So a lot of languages don't have distinct words for green and blue. Does that mean that those speakers can't understand the difference between green and blue? No, of course they can. And it's a matter of fact, Russian has separate words for light blue, and dark blue. But, you know, or does that mean that Russian speaker like that English speakers can't understand the difference between light blue and dark blue? Of course we can. Russian speakers might be able to understand it a little bit more quickly, and might be able to pick up on those color distinctions a little more efficiently than English speakers, because they've got a lot of practice at it. But it doesn't constrain your ability to think about the things a certain way

Nick VinZant 31:38

without kind of getting into the pole, political aspects of it and things like this, but simply from a linguistic standpoint, when we look at kind of gender and language, right, we're now folks which used to be fol, X, fo, folk s, right? Like Folk is now fol x in some cases. Right. Right. We're we're kind of changing words, based on gender. And I think everybody knows what we're talking about, like, from a linguistic standpoint, does that have any precedents in history? And is what is this kind of mean for us moving forward? I

Daniel Hieber 32:13

guess. Yeah. So boy, all sorts of great stuff to talk about with this. So for starters, that is mostly just a spelling convention that people are trying to adopt in that particular case with folks, it doesn't really affect the pronunciation much. However, there are certainly other cases where people are advocating for, like substantive changes to English grammar. So for the singular day, a lot of people are advocating for a singular day. And or in Spanish is a big issue, talking about lateen x, right? So Spanish nouns all end an O or a depending on if they're masculine or feminine. And so people are suggesting that they change those endings to always be an x. So it's gender neutral. And that requires like changing the grammar of the language. So a couple of things to be said to that. First off, it's really hard to do that. If you remember I mentioned earlier, that language is not something that can be managed from the top down. So people have been trying to manage language for as long as there's been language. Like, if you go back to Latin times, there's people complaining about how the young people speak. And it's because language is constantly changing. And so people are trying to impose their particular ideas about how society shouldn't be through language. When people have ideas about language, it's almost never about language, it's always about something else. It's always about like a group of people or some idea about society. So they've been trying to manage language for centuries and centuries. And it just, it's unfortunately not really possible. And even in cases where it's, you know, people are very well intentioned with something, it can be really cognitively difficult to get someone to use, singular they have for like a definite reference to a person, because that's just it for most speakers of English, that's ungrammatical. Now, there's an important distinction to be made there. We do use singular they all the time in English, as my fact singular A is older than singular you the word you used to be plural, and it became singular over time. And there have been records in English and people using they for singular longer than people have been using you for singular, which is pretty cool. But the the important difference there is that people are using they for the singular when it's an indefinite or unspecified person. But when you use they for a specific person whose identity you know, that's when it's ungrammatical. People are like they it just kind of your your grammar, like breaks for a second you're like, Wait, who Wait, who's the who's the day? Who are we talking about? And takes a second to realize like, oh, it's that singular person. So for most people, some people this isn't true, but for most people, it's still On ungrammatical to use they for definite specific person, but English is heading there. And I wouldn't be surprised if in 100 years that was totally normal, and no one even thought twice about it.

Nick VinZant 35:11

He's right. It's kind of one of those things that like, old man yelling at cloud that kind of ideas like, Look, man, it's changing whether you like it or not. In the long run, it doesn't matter. It's not like civilization is going to collapse. Because we've decided to, we've got we've gone through this kind of changes all the time. Exactly. Um, this is kind of, I don't even know if this might be along the similar lines. And this, so I'll use this example to try to so when I think of like, the word bitch now, for example, is this the best one I could think of? Or the first one they think, like, in my, when I was growing up, bitch was a woman. I don't think of bitches a woman at all, I think of bitches. Like is what I say to one of my straight male friends. What are like, Hey, let's go out. Right, right. And they say, No, I don't want to like, Oh, you've been a bit like, does language change in real time with that? Like, what do you think about when a word doesn't mean? What maybe it meant five years ago, or 10 years ago?

Daniel Hieber 36:11

Oh, yeah. I mean, sometimes this change can happen really quickly. A good example of this is actually the word friend. So friend used to not be a verb until about 2006, seven when Facebook came around. And now and now it's a verb, but it's a verb with a very specific meaning. It means to add someone as a connection on social media. Like you don't you don't say like, oh, I friended someone at the bar. That sounds a little weird, right? Like, like people, maybe it's, I wouldn't be surprised if that was more accepted in 1020 years. But for the most part, it's like it's got this specific meaning. But yeah, that was like overnight, you know, verb, suddenly, we find like, before Facebook came along, people would have said, No, friend isn't a verb, you have to say be friend, but now friend and be friend are two totally different things. They mean different things. And so and now friend is a verb has entered the language overnight, like within a year, and that that is incredibly quick for language change. It takes normally a generation.

Nick VinZant 37:07

Is there any language that you look at and say that is nothing like any other what is what I guess is the most unique language

Daniel Hieber 37:14

I am, I almost every week, I encountered something in language that I did not think was possible, or just as unique and remarkable and diverse about language. So one that kind of recently, really struck me was when I was working on my dissertation on my dissertation talks about new tungnath language in the Pacific Northwest. And this language has an entire set of like hundreds of suffixes. And the suffixes aren't like a plural suffix, or like a present tense suffix or anything like that. These suffixes are what would be like full words in English. So you would add a suffix. Like, there's a suffix for two. So you would say, like, you know, to have the stem man, and then you'd put the suffix for two on the end of it like the number two. And then you would turn it into a verb, you'd have a verb suffix. And so it would literally be a verb meaning to be two men.

Nick VinZant 38:11

Is there an age where we don't learn? Is there really like an age where like, you look, it's too late.

Daniel Hieber 38:17

Okay, so it becomes a lot harder after puberty, it's called the they talk about the critical period. So if you don't learn your first language, whether that's, you know, sign language or spoken language, if you don't learn your first language, what before you hit puberty, while you're in that critical period, you're probably going to never learn language. So and there are cases of this. Unfortunately, there are very unfortunate cases where you might have children who were deaf, and so the parents didn't realize that they weren't getting any language input. And they weren't learning until it was like too late. And so they were very delayed in their language acquisition. There's cases of feral children. So maybe this isn't an example of a feral child. But there's this really unfortunate case of a girl named Jeannie, who was basically locked in a room by her father until she was a teenager. And when she finally got out, she, she was never really able to learn language. She was very, very emotionally expressive. And people can tell like just how tuned in emotionally she was. But she could never pick up language after that. And there's a famous case of the they call them the wild boy of Abba Yone I believe in France, he was found in 1799. And he had been living in the woods by himself up until he was like 13, then he never learned language either. But if you have exposure, when you're young, then you can learn language throughout the rest of your life. And it is a little harder after puberty to learn languages as an adult. But recent research is actually suggesting that it's not as impossible as previously, maybe people have thought so people used to think like, oh, once you're an adult, you'll never learn a language as well as you do when you're a child. And for the most part, that's true, but the reason might not be because we're like cognitively incapable of it. It seems like the reason is really just more a matter of time.

Nick VinZant 40:05

We get other shit. Yeah, right

Daniel Hieber 40:06

and your kid, all you're doing all day is sitting around being a little language sponge like you'll learn and like 50 words a day. Whereas an adult, we actually realize now that adults are also learning a lot of vocabulary very quickly. So lately, we've been kind of re reassessing our existing beliefs about what we thought, like adult language learning was like, but it's still very possible.

Nick VinZant 40:27

What is your favorite curse word? Ah, I,

Daniel Hieber 40:32

you know, I probably go the current myself, just because I feel like it's one of the current curse words, but still has a good bit of oomph behind it.

Nick VinZant 40:41

Oh, that is true.

Daniel Hieber 40:43

Like, you can throw in fuck casually fucks been around since like, forever, like 1400. Like they we have documentation on fuck going way, way, way back. And that's such a fun word because it gets used as nouns and verbs and adjectives, like you can do whatever you fuckin want to do with fact, like, it's a great word. But it's undergone what we call semantic bleaching, it basically no longer has that same kind of pragmatic that it used to. So that one is just like, if you're going to, if you're going to really curse, and you want to curse to actually, like, have a little bit of that shock value, I think constant way to go.

Nick VinZant 41:16

That is true. Like if somebody if I'm in a restaurant or public place, and somebody says, fuck, I'm not paying any attention. But if somebody says can't, like, I'm snapping my head around, like, oh, it's gone down. Something is about something is about to happen. Um, what is your favorite word in any language like this is a great word.

Daniel Hieber 41:41

The words that really interest me are the ones that have like just illustrate the beautiful complexity of the language that they're being spoken on. So the language I work the most with is a language called Chitty macho, and it's the one spoken in Louisiana. It's a Native American language. And I just so there's, I know that seems strange, but it's there's a lot of words that are whole verbs. And but they get used as a noun. So it's the word for bridge. The word for bridge and Chitty Macia is they usually cross it. And so this whole verbal construction has got habitual suffix in there, it's got a plural suffix. It's got an intransitive suffix to tell you that it's like a verb that only has one actor, and it's kind of instrumental on it to say that, you know, it's like you're doing it with the bridge. It's all of these things, like packed into this one word. But it doesn't mean that like nobody uses it to mean cross. They use it to mean bridge. And this is something that happens with a lot of languages like a Navajo the word for chair is literally you sit up there on it. And the or like in Cayuga, the word for horse is it hauls logs. And so recently, these are become some of my kind of favorite examples of words and Native American languages that you know the verbs, they're actually verbs, but people have come to use them as nouns and they no longer you're gonna realize that they started as verbs a lot of times

Nick VinZant 43:09

when we when he looked at right, like language and race, what's kind of the big controversy in that?

Daniel Hieber 43:13

Well, like I said earlier, when people have attitudes and ideas about language, it's never about the language itself. There's never any linguistic basis to these ideas, these attitudes, it's always about some preconceived notion they have about the people that they see as speaking that way. So, and for a lot of people, you will let something slide with groups that you, you know, have no no issue with, and you will raise it as being ungrammatical or non standard for other groups. So a question I can ask on Tiktok all the time, is why the black people say x instead of ask. So this is a really revealing question, because first off, it's not the case that just black people say this. That's a very common feature, a lot of white dialects as well. So they're like, especially in southern English, you'll hear people say x all the time. So the real question is why when you hear that, that way of pronouncing it coming from white person, do you kind of let that slide and not think twice about it? But when you hear a black person saying it, suddenly you're like, oh, that sounds ungrammatical.

Nick VinZant 44:23

That is true, right? Like, you can't say that x is ungrammatical, and then say y'all in the next

Daniel Hieber 44:29

great example. Yeah, well, and the cursor thing is from a linguistic perspective, like y'all and x are both perfectly grammatical constructions. As a matter of fact, the pronunciation X has been around in English for as long as the pronunciation ask has been, they used to be there used to be all sorts of variation in the spelling between those two, up until I think like the 1800s. And at that point, people started standardizing the spelling on ask but the pronunciation never went away. It's just that that spelling got standardized. So those two pronunciations have been our around for ages, y'all is the reason y'all came about is because remember that plural you became singular. And so we need a new ways of talking about plural you. And so English depending on your dialect to develop, like six different ways of saying plural, you you guys, y'all Yen's uns it is it's something that a lot of people don't think about like, like language kind of winds up being one of the last bastions of acceptable discrimination, a lot of people that are out there, you know, really being advocates for social justice and like being anti discrimination will nonetheless like judge people very harshly on the way they speak. Even though linguistically there's there's no basis for that y'all is just as good of a plural pronoun as you guys is, there's it's just that one dialect has more prestige associated with it than another, linguistically, they're the same. Every dialect is as rule governed, and as well structured and irregular as any other.

Nick VinZant 45:56

Like, this isn't some fundamental law of the universe, like you're not doing it wrong, you're doing a difference, actually. Yeah. And if you think somebody is doing it wrong, it's basically just based around your own right upbringing and moral comp. Yep.

Daniel Hieber 46:08

And so like, I love using this example, because it so a lot of people will criticize African American English, certain dialects as being, you know, Lazy, Lazy English or ungrammatical or broken English or something like that. But if you actually go take a scientific approach to studying the rules of African American English dialects, you start seeing this beautiful grammatical complexity and this really well rule governed system. So a really popular example is, in stint in kind of mainstream Standard English, we have two present tenses, we have a present simple of like I Iran, and the present progressive I am running. So we have two different types of present tense, a lot of varieties of African American English have three or four different present tenses. And that will be the difference between a simple a progressive, and habitual. So it's the difference between he run, he be running and he running. And those all mean slightly different things. And if you're trying to speak that dialect, and you use the habitual one to not mean something, a bit like not refer to habitual action, you're speaking that dialect incorrectly, you're speaking on grammatically, you're not following the rules of that dialect. So it's, it's a rule governed system. It's like every bit as structured as any other dialect, it's just that the roles are different.

Nick VinZant 47:29

That is really true. I've always found that fascinating. When you look back in history, and it's never what someone is doing, it's always who is doing now, it's always the way that it is, um, what's kind of coming up next for you? Well, I

Daniel Hieber 47:43

just recently finished a postdoc at the University of Alberta here in Canada. So I was doing research with the plains Cree community, we were making an online dictionary, like an intelligent dictionary that would recognize all the forms of words and Korean. And so I've just finished that position. And now I'm working full time with the chinny moto tribe in Louisiana. And we are making a modern dictionary and grammar of the language so that they can revitalize the language again, which for them, they're super, super excited about this because their last speaker died in 1940. And so we are working from archival materials that a linguist he recorded 120 stories, he made some wax cylinder recordings, he did all this documentation. Back in the 30s. During the Great Depression, he sat, he was sitting in the middle of the bayou of Louisiana, with his notebook. And during the Great Depression as a grad student, it's like documenting this language. And then in the 90s, the tribe like learned about these materials, they didn't know they existed, they thought their language was completely gone, they would never hear it again. And they found these materials. And we started a language revitalization project. And so now they're working to teach the language to the kids in schools and again, and so that's I'm super excited to be working with them full time on that now.

Movie Trailer Composer Brandon Lau

In a world where movie trailers are king, Brandon Lau is the composer behind the music. He’s composed music for everything from blockbuster movies like Terminator, Scream and the Croods, to video games like Destiny 2. We talk movie trailer secrets, music composition and making a beat out of frozen cheese. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Movie Soundtracks.

Brandon Lau: :01:59ish

Pointless: 38:31ish

Top 5: 59:28ish

https://open.spotify.com/artist/6Uj0WdHN4qTOjdwJ4QyAK7?si=p3ReTnE8QG2x1U7aOign3g (Brandon Lau Spotify)

https://www.instagram.com/brandonlaumusic/ (Brandon Lau Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJWULTEdpv_5-YADkdFvxAQ (Brandon Lau YouTube)

Interview with Brandon Lau Music Composer

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode movies, and movie music,

Brandon Lau 0:19

it's like when you watch a trailer, it's so rhythmic and so music driven. And the advantages of having that is so you really feel like there's like a tempo and a pace. I had written the track for June now it's just sitting dormant in the library. Half a year later, the track gets picked up for the Croods. Two which is a totally different style of movie. So I really like putting in unorthodox sounds in my music, I had this frozen cheese I bought from Costco in the freezer, and so I smashed it, I guess it against the countertop. And that didn't help at all in terms of really under freezing the cheese. But I was like this is a sick sound.

Nick VinZant 1:07

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I don't know about you. But there's nothing that gets me more excited for a movie than a trailer. I mean, just just listen to this.

Our first guest specializes in making the music that goes along with those trailers. This is composer Brandon Lau. How does composing music for a trailer? Like what how do you what kind of approach do you use that's different?

Brandon Lau 2:05

It's actually a quite like a, I would say an interesting process. So one very unique thing to composing for trailers versus other media is that actually 90% of the time, there's no picture first. So what happens is that the music comes first. And then the editors will take the music, and they'll edit the footage based off of the music better. Right?

Nick VinZant 2:32

Okay, that makes doesn't make sense to me, right? Like, I know nothing about this. But to me, it would be like, Wait, why don't you? Why do you do it that way, as opposed to just make the music compared to what you're seeing.

Brandon Lau 2:43

It's like when you watch a trailer, it's so rhythmic and so music driven. And the advantages of having that is so you really feel like there's like a tempo and a pace. And it feels a little bit like, like a pop song in a way where like, it's repetitive. And it's catchy, which is really good for that kind of like two and a half minute media format that it is it's very effective. And the way it has a formula to kind of capture an audience's attention. So I think that's why it's typically done that way to kind of have the music drive be the driving force instead of like the film, and then the music following that

Nick VinZant 3:24

you talk about like, okay, so you're making it for a couple of minutes. Would that music then not work if you were making it longer, right? Like, oh, this music is great for two minutes, not good for five minutes.

Brandon Lau 3:39

Because the music comes first before the editing process, we want to make our music as editor friendly as possible. If we deviate from the formula, chances are that the piece will be less likely picked for no being edited to. So it's kind of usually a safer bet to really stick to the tried and true

Nick VinZant 4:03

or that. So like you mentioned the formula. And you know, I don't want you to give away your secrets necessarily, but like, What do you mean by the formula? Right? Like you got to build it up for 30 seconds, then you slow it down, then you build it back up? Like what's kind of the general formula that you're mentioning?

Brandon Lau 4:19

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't consider it to be a secret because the answer is out there in the open. You know, everyone has access to all the trailers that's ever been been published. And you will notice that typically, and like the first third of the trailer, or maybe less, you'll have all this dialogue and exposition. No, we want to know what the movie is about. And so typically what we want to do in the music for the third, first third of it roughly, is that you know, keep it sparse, keep it atmospheric. You know what we really want to leave room for the exposition and whatever's going on. And then you know, of course there's that huge cliche of like the single piano note which has been leading the trailers for such a long time. Now it's maybe not as popular. But even so the whole purpose of that single trailer note, it's like a small sound. That is, I don't want to say unique because it's been now done so many times, it's no longer unique, but a small sound that will capture the audience's attention. We call that like, like a hook, basically. So atmospheric. And then there's typically some sort of a hook where it's like a short melody or like a unique, like, weird sound. There are stuff like there's stuff like that. And in the second, third, this is when the action kind of picks up. And typically how that is reflected in the music is that the tempo will be more I guess, a felt, you'll often hear a clock. So that's a very, very common thing to hear in trailers. Now, the sound of ticking in the background, something to establish a sense of rhythm, and pacing. And so you can feel the tension of the trailer is escalating. This is like the second we call the second act of the trailer. And then, in the last act, you know, that's when like, the characters are jumping between mountains, and then there's like a spaceship that crashes into the galaxy. And so there's some crazy shit is going on. And then this is when we're leaving it all out on the table, you want to like your full theme, your full hook is like super wide out in the open, you have these massive drums. And then yeah, maybe at the end, there's a little like, boom, or something to Oh, coming out soon, theaters near whatever. And yeah, stuff that's like a very, very, very basic overview of the formula. I would say

Nick VinZant 6:40

it kind of sounds like you get their attention. You hook them. You show them like, ooh, suns happening here. Then you kind of explain it a little bit like, oh, wait, what's going on? And then it's the end is like, Oh, this could be good.

Brandon Lau 6:55

Exactly. Exactly. All right.

Nick VinZant 6:58

We hook them. We keep them. What's happening is gonna be good,

Brandon Lau 7:04

dear. I'm gonna hire your manager. You got the job? You know? You got, like,

Nick VinZant 7:09

never thought of that. But when I look back on all trailers, I can think of that you hear that like thing? And then like, Oh, right. It's weird how just that one sound by itself kind of snaps you to attention because it is a loan exact. It's almost like if they put some more things together, I tune it out as white noise.

Brandon Lau 7:32

Totally, totally. Exactly.

Nick VinZant 7:34

So okay, how did now how did you find yourself in this specific thing? Where like, did you go to and composing? And somebody said, You know what, Brandon, you are a trailer music composer? Or was this something that like you were always going to do this? Were you steered this way? Or was this the plan?

Brandon Lau 7:54

Yeah, um, there's definitely a lot of different factors that kind of led me down this path. I will list one of them first is definitely I have a huge I guess, passion and love for electronics slash sound designing music. So I really like putting in unorthodox sounds in my music, like having a synth note, do all kind of bendy kind of things and stuff, just playing the notes themselves, like kind of bending between notes, like putting in like, I had this frozen cheese I bought from Costco in the freezer. And there was one day that I was trying to like, get the cheese to unfreeze really quickly. So I could make lunch. And so I smashed it, I guess it against the countertop. And that didn't help at all in terms of really under freezing the cheese. But I was like this is a sick sound. And so I mean, that's like something that really draws me to music. And so although I've always been interested in composing, I find that the the vehicle of trailer music is really like a welcome space for my interests and passion. And because they're always looking for that one sound to capture the audience's attention to always looking for innovation, they're always looking for the craziest sound effects to kind of drive the attention and action of a trailer. So I feel like it was kind of a natural landing space for me to go to because of my my interest in composing and also in the sound design space.

Nick VinZant 9:34

So is it a competitive industry?

Brandon Lau 9:36

It's kind of a I guess, I'm strange balance between and so on one hand like yeah, there's it's very, very, like small and and, you know, being in the industry for a little bit. You see a lot of familiar names come up, you know, because it's just such a small world. But you know, because it's a Not at the same time. It's just like everyone is pitching for the same movie. You know, like, there's so many trailers, but there's only one like Mega blockbuster or handful of mega blockbusters that come out every year. And you think about like, there's still like 1000s and 1000s of applicants, and only like 510 big, really, really, really big blockbuster movies every year.

Nick VinZant 10:18

Maybe there's not a whole lot of people doing it. But there's enough people who are good at it that you got to you got to be on your ship.

Brandon Lau 10:26

Totally, totally. So yeah, and yeah, no, sorry, I was just gonna say that. It's constantly growing. But in the early 2000s, it was really just a few big trailer groups, you could say, um, and then now, you know, there's just so so many more, because people are, I guess, like, you know, like, there's a greater awareness that writing for music for trailers is something that you could do. Like, I didn't know that before I started doing it. So I didn't

Nick VinZant 10:56

know it at all. I just, I guess that's the kind of thing that like, I just, I don't know, I assume they pull it off, like the music equivalent of Canva. You know what I mean? I never thought like, well, somebody had to make that music. Now, is it so okay? For in the process? Do you make the music and then submit it? Or do you kind of apply for the job? And then get it? Or like, how does this kind of work?

Brandon Lau 11:23

Two ways in which it can happen? Both ways use an intermediary, we call them the publisher. So the publisher kind of works with composers, and they collect all our music, and they're the ones with the relationships to the major studios.

Nick VinZant 11:41

Yeah, the publisher then buys it from you. And the publisher sells it to the movie studio, or the publisher just basically is like, Hey, we got Brandon's newest one. What do you think? And if they like it,

Brandon Lau 11:54

to detail process a little bit more to publishers will typically save it. So because I love electronic music and stuff. So they'll be like, Oh, Brandon, you know, try to imagine a sci fi trailers. And then like, I will kind of do eight different tracks. And then we'll group them up and an album, we still we still call an album. And then the Yeah, the publishers will then do the artwork for the album, they'll like kind of do all that. There's a lot of paperwork and other like nitty gritty stuff they have to do for packaging the album, they'll do all that. And then they will then pitch the album to all the major studios. I don't get paid anything. If the music doesn't end up in any trailer.

Nick VinZant 12:46

I mean, if you want to go ahead and put a number on it, feel free to go ahead and put a number directly on it. But like how much would you generally get paid? If it gets picked up? I would imagine that it's depends on the size of the movie.

Brandon Lau 13:01

People, I don't know if people will shoot will frown upon me giving the number away.

Nick VinZant 13:06

Any number that you said would equally surprised me no matter how much it is. Could you give, okay? If you don't feel comfortable giving the number, how many digits are in the number

Brandon Lau 13:19

five? This is especially if you are doing a major blockbuster movie for sure. Five, that's not even a question. And then, yeah, the number can change it can go into the four digits. If it's like a smaller TV show, perhaps or like a video game, maybe. But if it's a major blockbuster movie, for sure, five dishes.

Nick VinZant 13:45

Wow. Now have you ever had a situation when like, hey, you know what, we've got the newest Animal Crossing game that wants this or you can sell it to Batman? Like do you get any say in that? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's, let's take the bigger check here.

Brandon Lau 14:03

Um, so you know, that sounds like a suffering from success kind of fine, which but I will say I think I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is how it goes. Because there have been some huge trailer tracks from other like, bigger composers than me that have been used multiple times. So I don't think it's like a just because one once someone buys this track doesn't mean that it's off the market forever. So I actually I that one one of my tracks then in both that was the one in both the the Call of Duty promo. And also the Destiny two promo actually was the same track. So it's happened to me as well. Like when

Nick VinZant 14:43

you make a new a new track. Do you have a pretty good idea or are you just kind of like I have no right like, Oh, this is getting picked up or just kind of like well, maybe,

Brandon Lau 14:55

you know, I always hope that obviously it gets placed. I can never know for sure. But when I'm done with it I I always feel pretty good about it.

Nick VinZant 15:01

Like then do you compose around a certain genre? Like do you specialize in a certain genre? Like, okay, I do action films and horror films and thrillers, or do you just kind of do everything like, well, this might go in the new Pixar movie or it could go in scream five.

Brandon Lau 15:19

Right, right. Um, so I would say I definitely specialize a little bit more the darker side of things like sci fi, Action, Thriller Horror, I've done I've done a few of those. And typically, when I write my music, I will picture a movie or video game from that genre. But I will tell you something funny, I guess. Do you know the movie dune? Yeah. Okay, so I was really

Nick VinZant 15:46

excited before? I do.

Brandon Lau 15:49

I love dune. Yeah. But before dune came out, before the trailers came out, you know, sometimes we will specifically target certain movies. And my publisher was like to do this coming out, I want you to write a kind of like, you know, how dune has very specialized on kind of like the, almost a Middle Eastern percussion. That's like a huge part of sound. And my publisher was like, okay, Brandon, please write something like that. And I was like, okay, you know, Dune is an awesome movie, I'm gonna target this piece towards dune. And I wrote it, and dune didn't pick it up. So I was pretty bummed out about it, because I had written the track for dune. And, and now it's just sitting dormant to the library. And I think, half a year later, the track gets picked up in the end, like an advertisement or smaller trailer for The Croods. To, which is, which is a totally different style of movie. But you know, they've got like, kind of like those like this big drums, like kind of like wooden sounding drums, and it happened to work for the Croods as well. So to answer your question, I do typically target those darker movies and stuff, where you never know where it's gonna end up. You know, you seriously don't

Nick VinZant 17:10

know what's funny, but like, it's weird how music can match things? How much you can max match a mood? Like, why do you think that is that you can hear something and be like,

Brandon Lau 17:22

Dad? Well, I would love to say that there's like some sort of like a deeper meaning behind that connection between music and association. But, I mean, I my answer has to be just through repetition and in history, you know, like, so many, when we watch a sci fi movie, typically the music is that kind of like strange synth score and, and you know, looking at an actual movie, there's going to be epic Trump's and I think just growing up and, and watching so many of these like, to, I guess, separate things, the movie and the music, just show up together all the time. We just kind of grow to learn that association. And then now we just pick up on it. But I mean that I know, that's kind of a boring answer. But I entered answering. Honestly, I just think that's pretty much what it is.

Nick VinZant 18:16

That is interesting, though, you know, how that all kind of now, will you ever are in the industry, I shouldn't say you specifically, but will the industry kind of move in certain trends were like, ooh, this worked for this movie. So let's do that. But a little bit different.

Brandon Lau 18:33

Do? That's a great question. Man. I'm so glad you asked that because trailer music is will some people like to say that trailer music is kind of like the pop music of media scoring in in the way that we are such trend followers. Because we're basically part of advertising, right. And so if something is not in at the moment, it's not going to catch anybody's attention. And so if you, you know, just even within within the 2000s trilling music has changed incredibly, the trailers from earlier in the 2000s to 2010, you will find like these huge orchestral lead kind of trailers. And this is when they're still saying saying like, in a world in a deep voice, you know, that doesn't happen so much anymore, but that that the whole thing kind of was happening at that time. And then later that became kind of cheesy. And so now we have all these different like, you know, you'll notice that there's pop songs now used in trailers, you'll notice that there's like hip hop and trap and an EDM and you know, when dubstep was big that was showing up in a bunch of trailers too. And so it really is such a kind of like a trend following genre. I would say the most recent one that I've been told to do a lot. I remember I forgot what year was but when the Black Widow trailer first came out the first Black Widow trailer, it had this crazy like so same melody that hasn't really been done before. Um, and I remember all the polar search that I've been working with after that shoulder came up, they're like thrown at, you gotta do something like that, you know, and I had no problem with it because I loved I was so inspired by that sound I just wanted to write during that kind of stuff all day. But yeah, that's the kind of like, you know, exactly like what you said, definitely a trend following kind of thing. I would say the best example, sorry, I should have given this example first was after Inception came out the brawl sound. Yeah, that was an every trailer. And it's still in like trailers today, because it's just such a cool sound. So definitely, like a huge trend following industry.

Nick VinZant 20:42

I've always been amazed at how you can do something unique. And everybody's like, nobody's touching it. And then one person does it. Everybody likes it. And suddenly, you're a genius. Like, how you can go from Muse in a second? Is increase just amazing to me. You just gotta get the one person to sign on. And then ever, he's like, Oh, I had that idea, too. Yeah, so like, for example, like, how many tracks would do you have out there right now? Not, I guess in both in terms of like, tracks that have been purchased and are being used either by movies or video games, or TV shows or whatever. And ones that you have done? Like, what's the percentage? I've made? 100? And I got 10 picked up or fill me in? I guess?

Brandon Lau 21:28

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I want to say anywhere between 40 and 70, maybe somewhere between 50 and 60? I don't know, we're somewhere around there in terms of the amount of tracks that I've created. And then the tracks that have been picked up in any sort of way. I want to say anywhere between 10 and 25. Somewhere around there. That's Yeah,

Nick VinZant 22:01

honestly, a lot more than I, that's a better percentage than I would have assumed. Right. Right. Like that. Sounds real. First

Brandon Lau 22:09

of all, first of all, thank you. But I do feel like I should clarify when I say what I just said. So we talked about money a little bit. And to clarify, you know, first of all, not only have not all of my tracks been purchased by big blockbuster movies, but also, you know, there are like other things where tracks sometimes are used on TV. And the way that that pays out is like totally different. And it's you know, sometimes I get used in like small little tiny tank commercials, they might use like two or three seconds of stuff. So like they're, they're pushing like smaller usages to. And I'm including that in a statistic that I just gave you. So just to clarify, but I'm not like some like major hotshot, because that would be a crazy statistic,

Nick VinZant 22:52

that still it's like, alright, so I got a couple of home runs, but I get on base a lot. Like, that still sounds pretty good. I mean, it's not like, nobody has yet picked up my hour long soundtrack of Bo horn. Now, is there any problems with people ripping off the music.

Brandon Lau 23:09

So oftentimes, you know, words are kind of horrible at describing music. And so when a director wants a specific piece of music, they will often employ what's known as a temp track, which basically is like, if they're doing a commercial, for example, they will put in an already existing piece of music, and first, and you know, to kind of get the feel of it all. And then they'll pass it on to the composer, and with that already existing piece of music and be like, oh, I want my commercial track to sound like this. And so it'll be like a reference track. So that composer knows what the director wants. And yeah, I found that one of my tracks, actually, one of my composer buddies was a friend of mine was doing a job for commercial is writing a track for commercial, and the reference track that he received was one of my checks. So in a sense, he was being paid to rip me off, like, you could definitely make an argument for that. But, you know, that's done so often in the industry that, you know, I don't take any offense and, and, if anything, I'm quite flattered, honestly, that the director, you know, wanted something similar to that. I just wished that the director asked me instead,

Nick VinZant 24:29

but why would they use a reference track and not just like, hey, I want something like this, but not this. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, right? That's like, like, I want a ham sandwich. Or like, I want a sandwich and I want it to be a ham sandwich. But I don't want this ham sandwich like make me another Hanson ham sandwich.

Brandon Lau 24:47

Right. I mean, in terms of temp, how temp tracks are used. That kind of differs from director to director to to that that you listed out kind of using it like this, and I want this that happens. That's kind of the spectrum of how temp tracks can work.

Nick VinZant 25:03

Um, okay, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Brandon Lau 25:09

Let's get to a man

Nick VinZant 25:12

track, or I guess, um, trailer music that you are most proud of?

Brandon Lau 25:18

That's, that's a fun question. I, I will give you two answers, I think. So I will first give you I guess, the trailer that I'm most proud of, which is a guest the piece of music that I've written, but also factoring in how it was used and the medium in which it was attached in. And that would be my track collapsing son used with the destiny to beyond light trailer. And I honestly that placement changed my life because I've noticed something about the difference between doing a video game and movie trailer and I've seen I've done a couple of movie trailers and typically the if you go down to the comments, and I'd be like this trailer sucks, or this trailer is great can't wait to watch this a list actor do whatever whatever whatever. But man video game fans are so the I think video game fans love music, I guess because the the kind of interactive aspect of the music while you're playing the video game is so important to the experience that I've noticed the main video game trailer sometimes, like if you go down to the comments, don't be like, track name. You can thank me later, there'll be like comments like that. And after the Destiny trailer that that I did was was a you know, it was very, very popular for on the date I came out was trending like number four, number three or something like that. And then I just looked down in the comments and you're like, oh, yeah, do you track the track here is collapsing son, Brandon Lau and out like that literally actually changed my life in in a very literal way. Because if you think about like people listening to music on Spotify, and stuff like that, people, there's very few people who will listen to maybe like Tralee, music for fun. Right. So typically, it doesn't get that much traction on Spotify. But because of the people putting those comments on on the YouTube trailer, it it kind of like increased my numbers and viewership by by a ton. So I'm very, very, very thankful for that one. My favorite tracks that I've created just with the track alone, I have a new track called a the needle on my album Hand of God. And I just liked that one because it's kind of inspired by a very clean, edited style, where I'm not using a lot of reverb or like kind of like sustained sounds, and it's very, very clean and very precise. And just from a technical standpoint, I was very proud of the track that I made. So

Nick VinZant 28:01

all right, this is my like you kids today, how are you? moment, but like how are you? Are you playing any instruments? Or is it's all computer based?

Brandon Lau 28:11

Yeah, so the music that I do is definitely, if not 95% 100%, computer based. But um, I would say the part that is most like playing an instrument for me is that those synth songs that are featured in my track. I'm kind of a stickler for designing my own sounds. It's a metric,

Nick VinZant 28:34

it's really an instrument of its own if you think about it, totally. Is there one in the industry? Is there like a trailer music in the industry that like people look at and say, that is the best.

Brandon Lau 28:45

There are a bunch of trailer tracks and composers that I look up to a one being that there's so many I'm just struggling to pick one. But you know, for a sake of time, I'm just going to ask them a couple of that I really like Mark Petrie, I've been listening to this guy before I knew I wanted to do trailer music. And he has a track called redshift, which landed in both Avengers Infinity War trailer if I'm not mistaken, and also the venom trailer. And that track to me is really, really inspiring. I think it's a perfect lesson on how to develop a catchy hook and a catchy melody. I think it's done extremely, extremely well.

Nick VinZant 29:33

trailers that you can think of in which the trailer music is synonymous with the movie. I think of like pineapple express that done in a day. Like where the movie The music is more popular than the movie?

Brandon Lau 29:48

For sure. For sure. Yeah. Oh, I can think of a couple but they're kind of cheating. Um, so I actually have a couple movie posters behind me. The one here It is for a movie called annihilation. And that movie, it came on, I think in 2018. And, um, the trailer had this one sound that was absolutely crazy. And it's kind of like the theme like it's about aliens and, and sci fi stuff. And so like the kind of the alien theme from the movie actually made it to the trailer. This is very rare, by the way that actual music from the movie gets put into the trailer. But that was one of the instances in which they chose to do it. And I can definitely see why. Because that theme for the movie was very hook, like, you know, and so kind of going back to what I was talking about in terms of hooks and stuff. It totally worked for the trailer music medium. So it's a little bit cheating, because you know, the sound was actually in the movie. But I think that trailer music was I thought it was really awesome.

Nick VinZant 30:59

How do you feel when you tell someone that your music was in a trailer or video game? And they say, Never heard of it?

I mean, that was a great question.

Brandon Lau 31:18

I love I wish people would ask these questions more often, man, I mean, I love the unapologetic ness of it. Um, I mean, I don't make too much of it. Man. I I definitely that happened to me a lot when I was first starting out, especially because the things that my music ended up even I was like, What the heck is that? I don't like look it up. Like, I've literally never heard this thing before money still. You know, I really don't take any offense to it at all. You know, like, there's just so much media out flowing in a universe. I don't expect everyone to know everything. So it's totally fine.

Nick VinZant 31:53

Are there parts of trailer music that people should specifically listened to that may give away secret clues within the movie or game? Like if you're really paying attention, the one that I can think about, like in Star Wars, where they play like the Darth Plagueis movie, the music or the at a certain time? Like, are the clues ever hidden in the trailer music itself?

Brandon Lau 32:18

Yeah, so back to kind of what I was saying, unfortunately, the movie and like, okay, the movie slash video game, and the trailer itself are completely unrelated. You mentioned Star Wars. And like I also talked about dune earlier. And those are like these huge IPs that they really want the themes to be involved in trailer. Sometimes they'll do it and that's where you're gonna get your clues for things to listen to and that kind of thing. I would say more so on that question, it's more like a disclaimer are coming from me that they are not related. Because sometimes I'll look at the comments, for example, for the Destiny trigger that I did, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, dude, I hope I can buy this soundtrack from Bungie. Like, dude, I'm so sorry, man. I actually I'm not familiar with Bungie at all. I'm not familiar with this video game. This is just a one time

Nick VinZant 33:11

associated. Just pick it up. Right? Like,

Brandon Lau 33:14

exactly, exactly. But so will you ever

Nick VinZant 33:17

have somebody come to you and like, Hey, man, we love this. We want to use it, but she just changed this one part.

Brandon Lau 33:25

Totally, totally. Totally. Yeah. So I didn't end up getting this trailer. But um, I was I made it to like a really, really because they're eliminating Yeah, yeah. Just through the process itself. Yeah, yeah. So I made it pretty far into the process for the movie The Grudge. And the grudge makes this like, throat noise. Um,

Nick VinZant 33:50

I can't I can't hear the horror movies. Man. The scariest movie I've ever seen is like the old King Kong and that was just like, Nope, it's too scary for

Brandon Lau 33:57

me. Do I totally feel you? I totally feel you. But yeah, and was the girl who makes this like really weird. And then kind of like aggressive throat noise. And they actually sent me the, the direct sample of that throat noise from the movie and they're like, please put this in your track for for the trailer, and I was like, Yeah, dude, this is this is awesome. I would love to use this in my track.

Nick VinZant 34:22

Okay. This is the thing that I want to do. This is when I have arrived and my career is complete or it is like I am established now. Is there something that you're looking at and be like, This is what I want?

Brandon Lau 34:39

So um, yeah, that's a great question. I I know I just spent the last hour talking to you about how much I love trailer music and stuff. So for me, I'm still trying to make the transition into Doing more movies or TV or even video games, for example. And having my my income more based in that realm,

Nick VinZant 35:09

oh, composing a horror thing?

Brandon Lau 35:12

Totally, totally. Yeah. Because that, on the other hand, you know, is actually the narrative. It's actually the story I get to talk with the director about, okay, this character is feeling this, you know, how should your music reflect that and every film, every scene is going to be different. And I know, I'm going to have so much fun, kind of delving into that creatively, and kind of growing as a composer and an artist, in terms of developing my musical ability, I guess. And so I'm definitely looking to move more into that. And to strictly answer that question, I guess I would love to do I guess, a major studio film or TV show? Obviously, you know that that's very, very, very competitive. And I'm still a ways away from that. But I would say that's probably when I would feel okay. I've made it and this is my career, I guess. I mean,

Nick VinZant 36:04

it seems like you're off to a good start. Right? Like, this is how you kind of get into it, right? It's not just like, hey, I filled out this app job application to be next John Williams.

Brandon Lau 36:15

toys. Oh, yeah, no, definitely, you know, if only you know, yeah,

Nick VinZant 36:18

he's good. Like, that's, like, right. But okay,

Brandon Lau 36:23

he's the goat, honestly. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 36:25

When you look at that kind of a style of music, whenever you're talking about trailers, or video games, or doing the whole movie or whatever? Does it? Does it really match in the sense that like, which one of these is happening first? Or is it happening at the same time? In which is the music making the mood? Or does the movie make the mood and then the music supports it? Right, like, which one's making me feel a certain emotion more? Because in some ways, honestly, kind of think it's the music. You know, like, you've seen those things, like Star Wars without John Williams, and you're just like, What the hell is going on?

Brandon Lau 37:05

Yeah, well, first of all, as a composer, I really appreciate you saying that. It makes you feel important. Without

Nick VinZant 37:13

the music, it's like a laugh track and a comment. Like, I don't really use that. Was that funny? You know what I mean? Yeah, no, said it.

Brandon Lau 37:22

Mm hmm. I would say so if you're talking about it, from an audience digesting it kind of way, then I would say, obviously, I'm very, very biased. But the music is really huge part of what you feel. Kind of like that. That's the emotion. It's, it's in the music. But before while, but while we're making the movie, I think as a composer, I'm definitely looking to play a supportive role. I'm not trying to be like, Okay, this is my movie, actually, you know, you're gonna feel how I feel. So I'm definitely gonna, like try to whatever the director once and how that story, how that story is created, and how it's meant to be perceived. In the words of the director. That's always what I'm going to be trying to push forwards.

Pizza Acrobat Nick Diesslin

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin isn’t a regular pizza acrobat. He’s an intergalactic time traveler on a mission to save the world the only way he knows how, with pizza. We talk pizza acrobatics, where to find the best pizza restaurants, his doughjo and embracing who you are. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Pizza Toppings.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin: 02:10ish

Pointless:32:43ish

Top 5: 48:11

https://www.instagram.com/pizzamannickdiesslin/ (Nick Diesslin Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@pizzamannickdiesslin (Nick Diesslin TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMbhbCwfTYmdqGxWt7XnUNA (Nick Diesslin YouTube)

https://www.facebook.com/PizzaManNickDiesslin (Nick Diesslin Facebook)

Interview with Pizza Acrobat Pizza Man Nick Diesslin

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode pizza, specifically pizza toppings and intergalactic pizza acrobatics from the past, maybe might be the future. It's definitely involving time travel, and intergalactic pizza delivery from the future.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 0:36

I call pizza acrobatics and art because I really do think it's it's an art with your body and dough. The actual backstory is like, I was a pizza delivery guy back in the day. And this this crazy guy named pizza man like was like, Dude, you got to help me get back. We got to we got to save the future with pizza. Because that was like a dream since I was a kid. And the older I got that dream kind of faded, because I never thought that was something that would happen, you know. And then when it started coming, like coming to life, I was like, oh, man, this, this might actually happen. I

Nick VinZant 1:11

want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So if you're new to the podcast or a longtime listener, this episode is a little bit different. But give it a chance. Seriously give it a chance. Because however interesting, you might think it is to begin with. It's oddly kind of fascinating. And then look into a different, a different kind of world. Our first guest is a pizza acrobat. And he has honestly this kind of inspiring story about doing what you want to do and what you like to do and being who you are. Even if everybody else is kind of wondering what's going on there. This is pizza man, Nick de Slan. What is a what is a pizza acrobat? Exactly.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 2:14

The best way to describe it is a pretty much a guy that juggles dough. They call it a pizza Acrobat because you can do a lot of like athletic moves with your tricks. So you're moving around the dose flying around your shoulders, through your legs all over the place. So that's kind of why they call it a pizza acrobat.

Nick VinZant 2:33

So how did you get started in this? Right?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 2:36

When I was in middle school, I started learning juggling. To be less shy, I was a really shy kid. So I wanted to do something that I could do on stage and like practice it before I go onstage. So then I could kind of be like a rock star by the time I was ready to be shy in front of people. And then I saw somebody doing tricks with pizza dough. And I was like, I didn't know that was a thing. But I want to do that. So I started teaching myself when I was like, I think 13 or 14 years old. And I've been doing it ever since. And I love it because people love pizza. So that's really the main reason.

Nick VinZant 3:18

But what was it about it that drew you to it? Right? Like, you know a lot of people we interviewed a high altitude mountaineer. There's like, I saw a mountain. And I just loved it. I wanted to be on top of the mountain, like people don't generally associate that with pizza dough. Right? So like, what was it about it that you were like, That's me. That is me.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 3:40

I feel like a lot of people have had this experience, you go to a pizza shop, and you see a guy throwing the dough in the air as he's making the pizza. And it's just like floating so elegantly, and all miss shape. And when it's in the air, or you know, maybe it is shaped and well, but it's at a weird angle. All of that visual stuff is really exciting. And like the setting in a restaurant, it's like you don't necessarily need to throw dough in the air. But that's like such a cool, a cool thing that's always happened for so long in history that it's like it's iconic for the pizza place a guy throwing dough in the air. And then taking that to another level doing tricks with it is is incredible, because a lot of people don't even know that it exists. So that's what excited me about it.

Nick VinZant 4:27

When did you kind of realize like, Oh, I'm pretty good at this. Like I should do something with this.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 4:36

Yeah. So when I first started, I sucked and I, I was I started with a washcloth originally and I was thinking maybe I could get a little better at it. So I kept practicing a little more. And I was not too good. But after a couple of months, I picked it back up. And I could do a few of the tricks that I've seen other people do and I was like, Oh, maybe I could do So then, probably after like three months, I started mixing into my juggling routines. So I do half juggling, half pizza throwing. And then after a probably a year, it was mostly all pizza acrobatics for my performances because people love it so much that I was kind of, you know, destined to do that.

Nick VinZant 5:22

Would I be surprised? Like how many other pizza acrobats are there in the world? Is this a popular thing? Are you like one of four people?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 5:30

There's there's quite a bit you probably would be more surprised at the amount that are pizza acrobats. I would say there's probably at least, I would say at least in somewhere. I'm not very good at guessing or guesstimating. But I would guess there's probably at least 1000s of them doesn't mean that they're necessarily like the greatest or anything like that. But there's quite a few people that do tricks with dough.

Nick VinZant 5:59

Now, when you do the tricks with the Deauville, like, can you eat this pizza? Like you could do the tricks and then somebody could eat it? Or are you kind of manipulating the pizza so that, like, you can't really eat it like it's pizza, but

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 6:13

you could use regular pizza dough. But of course, it stretches out very fast. So you could probably do like two tricks. And you will be done with that dough. So you could still probably eat it. But the dough that most pizza acrobats use when they use real dough is it's they call it a low hydration, so there's a lot less water in it. And there's no yeast. So it's basically not really for eating or cooking. But we always say like it is real dough like it's flour and water and salt. So there's like it's it is dough, but it's just not really like you're gonna be making anything with it that tastes good.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Me and what the two minutes that I have become a pizza Acrobat connoisseur. I have some issues. Yes. Right? Yes. I feel like Do you Do you get any pushback? Is it cheating? Because you're not really using edible dough? Is that a controversy within the pizza Acrobat industry.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 7:10

So I think most people that do tricks with with dough, it's not controversial for them. But for people watching. They're like, Oh, that's easy, because it's not real dough. And I'm like, okay, then you can do it too, then I don't mind if people think it's easy and want to do it. But I think a lot of times people think it's easier than it is. And it is it is controversial. There is also rubber dough that you can get where it's basically like practice Doh, that feels a lot like real dough. And it it simulates dough really well, it just doesn't stretch out. And people also say that's easier, like when they see it. But if they try to do tricks with it, it's not as easy as it seems.

Nick VinZant 7:54

Yeah, I feel like the rubber dome may be crossing competition lines. Like that's performance enhancing substances. In my in my in my outsider opinion.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 8:04

Yeah, one thing I think is good about the the rubber dough is it's uniform. So if everybody uses the same dough, it's everybody's at the same same level, because sometimes there's situations where people might have made dough for themselves for using real dough. That's like really bad. And that can throw them all off. And it's it makes the competition a little funny. I guess.

Nick VinZant 8:30

That is actually a good point. Right? Like so if you have a competition? Does everybody use the same dough? Do you bring your own dough?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 8:37

So yeah, at the competition's, usually they have dough that you can use or you can bring your own dough. So that makes it really up in the air to what what you use. You can't use the rubber dough. But as far as like, you know, it's up to anybody. I feel like you can mix anything in and call a real deal at some point.

Nick VinZant 9:01

Now why are you good at it? Is it practice? Do you have like my fingers are spaced farther apart than anybody else's fingers? And I've got the surface area to really control the dough like why are you good at it?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 9:16

I would say mostly practice and hand eye coordination juggling helps me a lot because by the time I started doing pizza, acrobatics, the tricks are similar to juggling in that you have to know like what your hands are doing and where it is, according to your body. So juggling helps me a lot. But I think that's probably the the main thing. It's not necessarily my body shape or anything. Some tricks will look better for me than other people and some tricks that I do might look better for people who might not be as tall as me or, or have different body types. So it's kind of working within your body type and what to do with a doe, so I don't know if that's the greatest answer.

Nick VinZant 10:04

No, it kind of makes sense, right? So how tall? How tall are you?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 10:07

I'm six feet tall. So they're not huge.

Nick VinZant 10:12

But that's on the like, would you do different tricks? Like, oh, I know in competition that it my height, this trick is gonna look good. But Sally, who's five, two, she can't do that trick. It's not gonna look the same way.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 10:25

Yeah, one trick, specifically, I do the shoulder roll where I roll it across both both of my arms and my arms are six foot three. So my arms are really incredibly long and lanky. But that trick I think, looks really beautiful. Going across my arms, just because it's so it looks. It looks really elegant. Having this dough rolled that far, across this lanky guy that I can

Nick VinZant 10:48

see that actually. Right. I can picture this perfectly, and I can see somebody smaller doing it and like, oh, that doesn't look the same way. Yes. Like what's the hard part? Is it the catching the throwing like what's what's the hard part of the pizza, acrobatics,

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 11:05

almost the invisible part that people don't understand that you want it to look as beautiful as possible. I I call pizza acrobatics and art because I really do think it's it's an art with your body and dough. So the tricky part is making it look as smooth as possible. And, and beautiful with all of the motions that you do. You don't want to be like spinning the opposite way of the dough, for example, because it will look more rigid. And it's all those little like invisible things that people wouldn't necessarily know that helps you look even better.

Nick VinZant 11:39

How like how much do you practice a week?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 11:43

So I put in probably at least like five hours a week. I do live streams now that go from anywhere from two to three hours straight of just throwing pizza. So it can be from Yeah, five hours or more. It depends if there's a competition. I'm practicing like a couple hours every day.

Nick VinZant 12:06

What's people's kind of response? Because on one hand, I can be see like you're throwing pizza all the time. Like, what are you doing? And then the other hand it's like, is being a pizza Acrobat like Pete being pizza. Acrobat is weird. I spend my time putting ball in a hoop. Right? Like it's it's all kind of a little bit dumb when you break it right down like that. Right? Like, he's Acrobat that stupid. Let's crash into each other with our heads. Try to cross this line. Right? So I yeah, what's what's kind of people's response to it?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 12:42

It's all over the board. I think a lot of people like to see how much fun I have when I do it. Because when you see, like, I genuinely really love doing this. And I think when people see it and understand it, they have a better appreciation for what I do. I get a lot of comments, though, of like, oh, man, I bet your parents are proud of you. And it's like, well, they actually are. So I don't know, I think I think leaning into the goofiness of it is something that I really started embracing over the past two or three years because it's really, it is goofy. But that makes it actually more entertaining.

Nick VinZant 13:20

That's an interesting question that me and John who comes in in the second half of the show, always talk about right like, Would you rather be the best pizza Acrobat in the world? Or the world's like 2000 best basketball player?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 13:35

I don't know. It kind of depends, too. I guess it depends on the person to answer it.

Nick VinZant 13:40

I guess what do your what do your parents think about I know you kind of mentioned it already. But were they were they super supportive? Or friends super supportive? Or they were kind of like, okay, he's doing his pizza thing.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 13:53

Yeah, my parents, they have always been really open but they've never been really pushy. So they're, they're the perfect support that I needed to be able to do this because they've never said that I have to do anything specific. But they've also never said anything bad about me doing pizza acrobatics from from the beginning they've been supportive of it and I think that's really cool.

Nick VinZant 14:17

So now can you make a living off of this?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 14:21

That's a great question so far, I don't think so. But um, yeah, that's that's why I think it's, it's it's a great hobby for me, I call it like, you know, my my passion and my hobby. But at the end of the day, it still is going to be a hobby until I find some way that I could actually make a lot of money with it. But you know, to this day, I would say it's it's very tricky. It's almost like stand up comedy is you can make money but it's pretty hard to get to the level where it actually has a decent job, you know,

Nick VinZant 15:00

I decided to have the possibility of like making money. So for example, we had on a couple episodes episodes ago, the world's best disc golfer. And he was like, my parents thought I was dumb. They stopped talking to me. And fast forward years later, after living in my car, I cash a $4 million check for a sponsorship deal. Right, like, so the possibility was there is that do you think the possibility is here for like, for pizza, acrobatics? Or is this always going to be what it is?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 15:32

I think the possibility is there. I think I think there's creative opportunities for pizza, acrobatics, and the creative opportunities could bring possible financial benefits. But that's that's a really tricky thing. Because it's like, I think there's there's possibilities, but I think it's really tough to, to really cash out on that, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 16:01

Not a lot of dough. And yeah. Yeah. I've been saving that up for months. I love that. That's, that's, that's the end of the show. That's the greatest thing I've ever gonna say in my entire life. So are you ready for some hardware slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. So how big generally is the size of the pizza that you're throwing?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 16:30

Yeah, so I start out with, what I like to have is starting out with like a 13 inch dose size that works best for me and my hand size. Some people probably start out with little smaller sizes. So that one does depend a little bit on on how big your hands are, and what you prefer, as well.

Nick VinZant 16:50

How high can you throw the pizza up in the air?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 16:54

I can throw it really, really high in the air. There's a Guinness Book of World Records. Record for how high the dough is thrown. But I do believe I could beat it. I just, I've never really recorded it. So that might be on the list.

Nick VinZant 17:11

On now. I'm fascinated. What's the record? Do you know what the record is? I believe

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 17:15

it's 23. And something feet. But that's not really that high.

Nick VinZant 17:21

That doesn't sound high. But that's pretty high. Only three feet off the ground or 23 feet above the height of the person's outstretched arms.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 17:31

I believe it's off the ground.

Nick VinZant 17:34

I think you could do it, man, I think yeah. Like how heavy is a pizza?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 17:39

So the Yeah, the dose that we use, typically, it's to eight ounce dough balls that we squish together and we use to to like, make it a little stronger. Because if you use one, there's a little bit of like inconsistencies when you pinch the dough on the bottom. So it's a one pound.

Nick VinZant 17:59

So where do people Where do people go wrong in their pizza? acrobatics? Like what's the mistake that people are making?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 18:08

Um, I think one of the biggest mistakes is, well, we drop it, we drop it a lot. I drop it a lot. And that's something that you just, you can't, you can't really expect yourself to catch it every single time. And it's okay to drop it. But that is a problem. Yeah, that's

Nick VinZant 18:29

a problem. Right? So yeah. Now how are they judging the competition? Is it just the difficulty of tricks or how they how do they do it?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 18:39

They judge it on a few different things. One of them is the amount of drops you have. So every time you drop it, they dock off certain points. So that's, that's very tricky. And if you do challenging tricks that can be offsetting. And then they also judge you on the entertainment value. And then the dexterity, which is kind of like the skill level almost. But it's kind of like how well you can make it look in and manipulate the dough

Nick VinZant 19:13

to the toppings make a difference? Like can people do it with toppings.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 19:18

So I've never, I've seen people use like confetti. I've never seen any. Anybody put like toppings on the pizza. In a performance, I guess flour, people sometimes like Sprinkle flour on it. And that looks kind of nice. But you certainly could use toppings if it if it looked well visually, that would actually be a pretty, pretty good addition. If you can make it work.

Nick VinZant 19:43

What would be what do you think would be like the hardest topping to add on there and be able to do

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 19:47

what I think sauce would be a mess. That's a good

Nick VinZant 19:52

point. That's a good point. Yeah, yeah, that wouldn't work out very well actually.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 19:57

But it would be really funny to

Nick VinZant 19:59

you Yeah, what would like pepperoni be harder than sausage?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 20:05

So maybe it depends on the type of sausage you use, because sometimes there's like the pinch sausage or like the little like chunks. I think pepperoni could be kind of cool if you could get it to like fling off. Like those nerf discs.

Nick VinZant 20:16

Oh, yeah, man, you could take this to another level. You could potentially like spin the pizza and spin an individual pepperoni. That's right. We're making magic here today. Yeah, here's, we've got it. We figured it out. Man. This is how pizza acrobatics is launched. That is also I wanted to ask you this. You are the intergalactic

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 20:40

pizza? Galactic? Yeah. intergalactic pizza acrobat?

Nick VinZant 20:44

Have you confirmed this in any way? Or is that like, I can just add this to my title? Because I think it's because I think it's

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 20:49

well, I'm actually a time traveler. And I'm from the year 1990. Boy I got a whole backstory.

Nick VinZant 21:00

I almost don't want to ask any follow up questions and just leave people wondering like, Is he fucking serious? Joking around. Actually. Could you actually be

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 21:12

I am a time traveler. Yeah. Now I

Nick VinZant 21:14

want to know what the backstory is. Give me a little thing,

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 21:17

man. Yeah, so there's like a little bit of a seriousness to the backstory. But like the actual backstory is like, I was a pizza delivery guy back in the day. And this this crazy guy named pizza man like was like, Dude, you gotta help me get back. We gotta we gotta save the future with pizza. He took me in his car. And we like fused together into pizza man, and we're here in the future trying to save the world with pizza.

Nick VinZant 21:41

That's probably honestly the best way to do it. Think about right?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 21:46

I know pizza is the way to say like cure everything. People love it.

Nick VinZant 21:51

You know, we've talked we on the show we've interviewed NASA climatologist people who deal with like space, but honestly, it comes down to Pisa. Really they they had the wrong answer in the in the in the entire time. So then, do you get to do a lot of traveling and taste and go to a lot of like different pizza places.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 22:14

Yeah, so I've I've done a lot of different traveling from some from pizza stuff and some for like, my professional career. But wherever I go, I do like to try out tasting pizza. New York. I love New York pizza. I think that's probably my favorite.

Nick VinZant 22:32

Oh, but people get heated about regional pizza. They do.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 22:35

Yeah. The Chicago style pizza. You know, there's, it's funny because pizza. I see why people get so heated about it because there's so many different options. But I also like letting people have their opinion. And then I keep mine you know,

Nick VinZant 22:52

but who would you say would be the most passionate defender of their style of pizza, right? Like I can think of New York pizza. I can think of Chicago pizza. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But like who's like, oh, you show up at the wrong pizza place and say the wrong thing.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 23:09

I feel like Chicago. They they love their pizza a lot. Even though like New York I feel like is you know pretty defensive, but I don't know. I've heard a lot of Chicago people talk about Chicago style very aggressively.

Nick VinZant 23:26

What what region of pizza though is regional pizza is sneaky good, though. Like, well, people may know about it, but like, what's coming? It's coming up there.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 23:37

Man. I don't know. I feel like pizza is so so diverse that I am not picky. And I also don't have anything where I'm like, this is the this is the next thing. I don't know if that does not help you at all. But

Nick VinZant 23:55

you just make something up, man. I thought you were a time traveler and you go Bucha No.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 24:00

I love I love culinary fusions with pizza. Like if there whenever I see somebody who does pizza Well, it's not like they're, it's not like they're making you know this. This is the best pepperoni pizza. They're making a pizza where they are figuring out a way to make every ingredient on the pizza special and making it all come together and making that a special pizza. So that's the type of pizzas that I like to look for when when I'm looking for like a very special pizza. Like if they're like I carmelize the onions in a certain like, sauce. That's just for the onions. So like I know the rest of the pizza. They like doing special things for all of

Nick VinZant 24:43

it. Okay, best pizza that you've ever had. So

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 24:46

I would say the best pizza or had who was at the pizza place that I started working at? It was it was called Randy's premier pizza in Minnesota and Randy Randy knows how to do Pizza really well. And it's funny because like, I would always tell people like this is the place to go for for good pizza. And we had we had Chicago styles there. We didn't have woodfire. But every once in awhile we would do woodfire outside, but it's cold in Minnesota, so we can't really do it.

Nick VinZant 25:17

My only issue is like the idea that it's just called Randy's like if it was some other fake name that I would probably might be much more interested in it. But Randy is like, the worst name that I can. Yeah, right. It Jeff. Yeah, yes,

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 25:36

it's a place. That's what I always tell people to like, if you can find a like a random mom and pop shop nearby. Their pizza is probably going to be really good if they specialize in pizza. Because a lot of times those small little shops really know what they're doing. Because they usually only have their one place. So they don't have to worry about their their pizzas being good across their chains. If that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 26:01

That does make sense, man. You really know your pizza.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 26:06

I try to hard life right? Yeah, hard life for the pizza man.

Nick VinZant 26:12

Um, okay, but what about like, frozen pizza? Where are you going? Frozen pizza?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 26:19

Frozen pizza. That's a good question. I I like a lot of frozen pizzas. There's one brand specifically. It's called screamin Sicilian that I do. I do like quite a bit. I know there's a lot of like, other like kind of higher end frozen pizzas, but screaming Sicilian is pretty awesome. They're they're actually from Wisconsin, if I remember correctly, too.

Nick VinZant 26:43

I think I've actually have that in my freezer right now. Yeah, you

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 26:46

got the little mustache and everything like

Nick VinZant 26:48

little mustache and there's like is there but there's like you can see into the pizza but it kind of looks like

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 26:52

yes, they got you ever got like the mouth and everything. You can see the pizza. Dude.

Nick VinZant 26:57

That's that's pretty good pizza actually, honestly, like I get it for my son. And then I just eat it all because like, Oh, that's good pizza.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 27:05

Yeah, and I'm Sicilian part Sicilian as well. So I like that.

Nick VinZant 27:10

Okay, let's get controversial. Yeah. How do you feel about pineapple? How do you feel about white sauce? How do you feel about dessert pizza?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 27:21

Okay, I like that. Any other ones? Now? There's a three. Okay, pineapple. I don't like pineapple on my pizza. But I appreciate people's opinion for it. However, I think it's much too juicy to be an ingredient on on a pizza and my, my argument to the earth. Yeah, my argument to this discussion is always like you put watermelon on your pizza. And they're like, No, and I'm like, it's like almost the same consistency with the juiciness.

Nick VinZant 27:54

That's true, but it's true.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 27:57

But I do think you could use pineapple to make like a good glaze for dessert pizza. And that's where I would go with pineapple on a pizza.

Nick VinZant 28:06

How about the white sauce?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 28:08

white sauce. I don't really like white sauce. But that's just because I don't really I don't really like what I like the like the Alfredo or I never really was a big fan of it. Except like the flavor. So it's like, I can't I don't really enjoy it on pizza.

Nick VinZant 28:26

So you've been on a lot of different, like, America's Got Talent, that kind of stuff. What was that? Like? Which one was yeah,

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 28:33

I really liked. I liked America's Got Talent a lot, because that was like a dream since I was a kid. And the older I got that dream kind of faded, because I never thought that was something that would happen, you know. And then when it started coming, like coming to life, I was like, oh, man, this this might actually happen. And it was really, really exciting. And I was glad I did it when I was older because I would not have been prepared for for the whole experience. When I was younger. There's there's just a lot of, you know, mental strength you need to be able to get through through, you know, anything like that. The show is great. It's just like the nervousness is a lot, right?

Nick VinZant 29:16

Yeah. And you can't have sweaty hands throwing pizza out imagine.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 29:20

Yeah, and you don't want to be you can't be shaky or nothing. You have to pretend like you're you're all cool.

Nick VinZant 29:26

Yeah, play it cool. So yeah. Okay, if you say it's you, who's the Michael Jordan, of pizza acrobatics? Who's the best?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 29:37

Yeah, I would say so. I would say the best of all time there's this pizza Acrobat named Tony Gemignani. And he's kind of like he's kind of like the guy in the pizza acrobatics world. He's He's done it for so many years and he also makes really good pizza. That's the cool thing. So he he's like really influential On the pizza world as far as like creating it, and doing tricks with pizza, that was like one of the people that I really like to watch a lot of videos when I was a kid to try to learn more. So I really appreciate whatever Tony has done. There's so many people nowadays that I think are really good that it's hard for me to pick specific people to

Nick VinZant 30:22

is their trash talk. You try to get in the head that you like your opponent. So I

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 30:27

am the nicest guy. I would never I would never trash talk anybody. I think there's other people that probably would, but I'm just trying to have a fun time and like, do good stuff with pizza. And I want more people doing pizza acrobatics. So that's why I try to be nice because I, I want I want this to be more of a thing than it is. And that's the way to do it.

Nick VinZant 30:51

That's true. What do you think? Like what do you think is the future of pizza acrobatics? Like what's, what's the next level?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 30:58

Yeah, I think it would be cool if it was really, I don't know. It'd be cool. If it was like an Olympic sport. Or, you know, in schools more we got to we got to get it more in schools. You got to be learning pizza acrobatics, needs to be on the curriculum.

Nick VinZant 31:14

Mandatory right?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 31:16

Yes. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:17

We're busy banning books. We can at least get pizza. Yeah,

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 31:20

let's get Pete's acrobatics in the system.

Nick VinZant 31:25

Listen, if you go if you go to a city council meeting, or a school board meeting, and you you make that pitch, I will watch it.

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 31:33

I will do that.

Nick VinZant 31:37

Um, that's pretty much all the questions we got, man, what's kind of coming up next for you?

Pizza Man Nick Diesslin 31:42

Yeah, so um, I've been kind of doing a lot of social media work lately just trying to get make more videos. I'm trying to also make educational videos to help people learn more about pizza acrobatics. So those are a few of the things that I've been working on and, and trying to keep everything in order in my life.

Money Laundering Expert Moyara Ruehsen

Money Laundering is transforming. Professor Moyara Ruehsen says the criminal enterprise has become a trillion dollar industry involving everyone from biker gangs and drug carters to terrorist organizations and rogue nations. We talk money laundering red flags, interesting cases, how money launderers are using classified ads and NFTs and what TV shows and movies get right or wrong. Then we countdown the Top 5 Bills.

Professor Moyara Ruehsen: 1:45ish

Pointless: 37:01ish

Top 5: 1:00:10ish

https://www.middlebury.edu/institute/people/moyara-ruehsen (Moyara Ruehsen Bio)

Interview with Money Laundering Expert Professor Moyara Ruehsen

Nick VinZant 0:13

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode money laundering and the best bills,

Moyara Ruehsen 0:21

there are professional money launderers who have clients all over the world when COVID happened and every all the restaurant shut down, that was a big problem. The money launderers couldn't use restaurant receipts anymore as as you know, excuse an excuse for depositing dirty cash and FTS, they are a money launderers dream. And he laundered money for Mexican drug cartels for terrorist organizations, biker gangs in Australia who were you know, selling meth,

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is an expert in international money laundering. And that is a trillion dollar criminal enterprise that affects everything from Mexican drug cartels, to biker gangs in Australia, rogue nations and terrorist organizations, it is so pervasive that you may have seen advertisements for money laundering services in the newspaper, and not even realized it. This is Professor Moira roussin. I think I know what money laundering is. But what is money laundering

Moyara Ruehsen 1:48

it is moving money or value. So it could be crypto, for example, with the intention of hiding its origin or its purpose. So for example, you commit a crime like drug trafficking, for example, you don't want anyone to know that this money was derived from drug sales, or else law enforcement could seize it. And so you're going to move it around a lot, and do different things with it. So that it's going to be impossible to trace that cleaned money to the original crime of drug trafficking. But it could also be moving the money around and, you know, hiding its purpose, too. So let's say the money is really going to North Korea, for example, you know, for their nuclear weapons program. And so that would also be money laundering.

Nick VinZant 2:41

When I think of course, like, right, I'm thinking of TV shows like Ozark and those kinds of drug related shows, like that's who I'm thinking of is doing money laundering, right, but primarily, who is doing this,

Moyara Ruehsen 2:53

there are professional money launderers, who have clients all over the world, and they charge commissions of as little as 5% to as much as 20%. And, of course, their clients are all criminals who need to have their money washed, we're seeing more of that we're seeing people who are specializing in money laundering, whereas in the past, a lot of these criminal organizations would try to do it themselves. You know, I wouldn't say you can really generalize about who these people are, or what it is that they're, what type of laundering they're doing. Exactly. You know, there there are, for example, individuals who operate so called mixing services where they're basically laundering cryptocurrency, on your behalf. Yeah. And you know that that's also money laundering.

Nick VinZant 3:51

How much money are we usually talking about on a yearly or kind of whatever basis that you could provide?

Moyara Ruehsen 3:57

Well, for the past decade and a half or so this number has been floated around that one to 2% of global GDP is laundered every year, which would be between one and $2 trillion a year. And that's just a stab in the dark. Somebody pulled that number out of there. You know what, I don't know that we really know how much money is laundered. I think that that's an exaggeration. But what you would need to get a bead on is know how much criminal activity is out there. Okay, whether it's drug trafficking or selling child pornography, or you know, lots of arms trafficking and other types of crimes, how much of that needs to be laundered? Probably 80% Of all the criminal money out there needs to be laundered the remaining 20% Rent is cash that people just use for their everyday expenses. But if I'm a criminal, and I want to buy a house, or luxury yacht, or you know, something substantive, I can't buy it. With the dirty money or the dirty crypto, I need to launder it first, before I can, you know, live the luxurious lifestyle I want to live.

Nick VinZant 5:26

Is it hard to launder money? Or is it hard to launder a lot of money?

Moyara Ruehsen 5:31

It's hard to launder a lot of money. Yeah, it's, it's complicated. And it also depends on what you're starting with. So for example, if you're starting with cash, that is tricky, and it's really hard to launder a lot of cash, because, you know, just putting it into a bank, for example, without it being noticed, is really hard. I think that the TV show you referenced earlier, Ozark is a perfect example of that. One way you can do it is try to commingle the dirty cash with legitimate businesses. So Marty is buying all these legitimate businesses, a strip joint, a funeral parlor and, you know, restaurants that take in a lot of cash are useful for that. If it is if you're laundering cash, if you're laundering crypto, it's it's less important, how little or how much. It's just, it's really hard to launder crypto, you know, the blockchain is immutable. And so, you know, if you ask a money laundering investigator, what's easier to track crypto transactions, or cash transactions, or, or you know, just even wire transfers through banks, they're gonna say, crypto is the easiest thing to track. Because we can see where it's going several steps ahead and behind we, we it's really hard to do that with bank transactions.

Nick VinZant 7:10

So Can people like spot the money launderers? Or do they basically have to find out that these people are criminals? And then they can find it? Does that make sense? Right, like, are you finding the criminals by finding the money laundering or you finding the criminal activity and then you find the money, money laundering,

Moyara Ruehsen 7:31

it happens both ways. Sometimes, you know, we you find the money launder, and then from that you find the criminal, but more often than not, and I tell this to my students, because, you know, when they study financial crime, they learn how the criminals do it. Right. And, you know, my students are already vetted just before they even get into the program. So I'm not concerned that they're gonna go to the dark side, but just in case, they might consider that as a profession, I tell them, you can be the best money launderer in the world in terms of the techniques that you're using. But that's not going to help you, thanks to our plea bargain system. Because all of your clients are criminals. And, you know, are you going to trust them? When they get caught in their different crimes, they can reduce their sentence by, you know, turning other people in? And often the first person they turn in is the money launderer who isn't their cousin or nephew or sister.

Nick VinZant 8:40

So are there types of telltale signs that you say like, oh, that's a sign that's a sign this is off, right? Are there telltale signs, that kind of spot that money laundering is happening?

Moyara Ruehsen 8:52

Oh, yes, yes, fact. But it's going to depend on what type of crime we're talking about. So there are red flag indicators of, you know, financial crime transactions related to human trafficking, for example, for instance, credit card transactions, for example, that are indicative of human trafficking. There are red flag indicators of trade based money laundering, you know, over invoicing or under invoicing or false invoicing of trade transactions. There are red flag indicators of money laundering associated with proliferation, debt WMD proliferation financing, and so it really depends on you know, what type of crime we're considering. The red flag indicators are going to be very different. And so as an investigator, you have to basically study What all those different red flag indicators are? And then you have to develop your, your gut instincts. And be curious if something just doesn't seem right. There's something a little bit odd about it. Well look into it. Be curious. I tell people, if you want to really be a great investigator, the number one quality is curiosity.

Nick VinZant 10:26

For kind of an examples sake, let's say that it's a drug cartel or somebody laundering drug money, like what would those kind of red flags be that jump out?

Moyara Ruehsen 10:36

Yeah, okay. Well, if it is, let's say it's cash sales, which, you know, it's still happening, people are still using cash to pay for drugs, although some of that activity has migrated to the dark web. But, you know, street sales for drugs are still often in cash. And when they try to deposit that cash with a bank, let's say, they're going to have different front company accounts that they might deposit that money into. But they're also going to try to deposit underneath that $10,000 threshold, if you deposit more than $10,000 Cash, then you have to fill out what's called a currency transaction report. And it's a pain in the neck, and it asks you for a lot of information, and you have to provide your identification. And, you know, nobody wants to do that, especially not a criminal. So they make those deposits under $10,000. But let's say that, you know, you don't want to deposit $9,999, right, that's going to be obvious and raise red flag to red flags. So you're going to deposit, you know, on Monday, you're going to deposit, you know, $5,671, and on Tuesday, you're going to deposit $7,823. And on Wednesday, you're going to deposit $6,544, etc. And you're going to go to the bank and saying yeah, these are the cash receipts from my restaurant chain, or you know, whatever your excuses. But it's gonna look suspicious that you are making all these multiple deposits between, you know, two and $10,000. And unless you've been doing that for the past 20 years, and everybody knows about your successful restaurant chain, when COVID happened, and every all the restaurants shut down, that was a big problem. The money launderers couldn't use restaurant receipts anymore as as you know, excuse an excuse for depositing dirty cash. So it you know, there's that and you know, they're also going to a good bank will also look into your restaurant. Know, they'll check and see whether or not this is a thriving business, and you're bringing in that much cash, which is these days very unusual. Most people don't pay in cash that often they'll use a credit card, for example.

Nick VinZant 13:31

Yeah, I would almost think that using cash at all, would be a red flag. Right? Like, I don't think I've carried it in. That's really interesting about like, COVID. And restaurant receipts, like what? Oh, wow. So is it hard to catch people? Because on one hand, I see like, how could you not get caught? And on the second hand, I'm like, Well, how could you get caught? Like I feel both ways at the same time?

Moyara Ruehsen 13:59

Mm hmm. Yeah, a lot of these money launderers get caught because their criminal clients turn them in, in order to negotiate a lighter sentence. But what often happens too, is that the the money mules get caught. So for example, let's say you see an ad online that says you can make money from home which you know, a lot of people are interested in, it's many people lost their jobs during COVID. They thought, oh, I can make $100 a day for just, you know, two hours of work working from home. Sure, what do I need to do? And they might say, well, you know, what we're going to do, we're running a new company, and we need someone to help us process our payments. But basically what they're doing is they're moving their criminal money through your bank account and They're gonna give you maybe a commission 5% commission on all the money they move for your account. Sometimes these are scams and but sometimes really all you're doing is just, you know, moving the money through your account on their behalf, because you are less suspicious. And this has been a huge problem. I think just in the last two, really, since COVID. It's exploded the recruitment of people to act as money, mules, and some, and they'll also hire foreign students, for example, who are here, just temporarily, and then say to them, oh, you know, don't close your account. I will pay you for whatever money is left in your account, and then a little extra. And so we'll use that foreign students account to, you know, move the criminal money through

Nick VinZant 15:54

so people can get like recruited to, yeah, money launderers through classified ads in the paper, basically,

Moyara Ruehsen 16:01

well, and online on websites. Absolutely. And it's happening all the time. So what, what happens to those people? Well, the bank will likely notice this unusual activity, and they'll notify you and saying, we've noticed some unusual activity in your account. And most people, once they get a notification like that, they'll try to stop doing what they're doing. Hopefully, they're not being threatened or pressured by the criminals. But some people keep doing it. Because it may be it's good money. And then you might be contacted by, you know, FBI or some other law enforcement agency until you know, we believe that your money is being used to move I mean, your account is being used to move criminal funds. And then hopefully, they'll stop and say, Oh, I didn't realize that, you know, maybe they suspected but it's like, oh, gosh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And they stop, and that's fine. They're not going to be prosecuted. It's the people who don't stop even after a couple of warnings that, you know, have a letter of law come down on them. But the criminals realize that eventually, this unusual activity is going to be noticed. And either those accounts will be closed, or something, people will look into it. And so they may only use these money mules for a short period of time, and then they have to recruit more, so they're constantly having to recruit new money, mules.

Nick VinZant 17:44

So but once it's laundered, is it clean, clean, clean, like, Okay, we did it, we accomplished it, we didn't get through the money's good to go, or is it always kind of a little bit dirty,

Moyara Ruehsen 17:56

it's always kind of a little bit dirty. It by that time, you're, what you're doing is you're trying to move the money through multiple accounts, maybe in multiple jurisdictions, then use it to buy property, for example, and then sell that property. And then, you know, by the time the property has been sold, and you have, you know, cash in your account, but looks like it's from a legitimate property sale, tracing that back to the original crime, which might be you know, 10 transactions earlier, is going to be really difficult for law enforcement to to follow.

Nick VinZant 18:49

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I am new tricks, or is it the same old tricks?

Moyara Ruehsen 18:57

Hmm. New Tricks, NF T's. I can't imagine that anybody would invest in an NF T. But they are a money launderers dream. And there's a lot of self dealing, you know, people sell NF T's to themselves or their criminal associates as a way to, you know, disguise these these money laundering transactions.

Nick VinZant 19:30

Hit had never thought of that, right? Because how could you essentially trace it? Mm hmm. Right, like, well, and you could essentially make up whatever it's worth, like this picture of my high school diploma, I have decided is worth $3 million.

Moyara Ruehsen 19:45

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. People do it with any kind of art. But with NF T's in particular, I think I think we're starting to see an uptick in that.

Nick VinZant 19:55

Can they stop it? Or is it like, huh, we got you Yeah,

Moyara Ruehsen 20:00

it's too early to tell, I'm sure that there have been some suspicious NFT transactions that are being investigated. But I don't know that we've seen any prosecutions as yet. But it's only a matter of time.

Nick VinZant 20:17

We kind of talked about this one a little bit, but this one just says, I don't know why our audience is speaking in shorthand code, but hard to find hard to prove. Or we might laundering I guess which one would be harder? Is it harder to find it? Or is it harder to prove it? Kind of the idea of like, Look, I know you stole my candy bar, but I can prove that you stole my candy bar. Which one? Do you think it usually is?

Moyara Ruehsen 20:40

It sounds like the same thing.

Nick VinZant 20:44

It does kind of I guess in this example, well, we will write that person back and tell them to think

Moyara Ruehsen 20:52

of a better, but is it is it all idea is you need to somehow trace that money that's being moved to the original crime? That and that's tricky. It can be done and it is done. But you know, it's it's time consuming. And it's complicated.

Nick VinZant 21:12

Do people ever tried to launder money for completely illegal

Moyara Ruehsen 21:16

activities? You don't need to Why would you do it? It doesn't make any sense.

Nick VinZant 21:21

Like it doesn't get you through taxes? Or some there's not some kind of loophole where somebody might be trying to think of like, well, if I take these restaurant tips, and I do this, then maybe I don't have to report it. Is there any real game so

Moyara Ruehsen 21:33

that is that's tax evasion. And that is a crime. But that is a separate crime from money laundering. In a lot of other parts of the world, if you are moving money for the purposes of tax evasion, they count that as money laundering, and they charge you with, you know, tax evasion and money laundering. But in the US, I think for historical reasons. We have a separate set of legal statutes for tax evasion.

Nick VinZant 22:02

This question is near and dear to my heart, because I used to live in Tucson, Arizona, and I swear, that that has more mattress firms build mattress stores, or this one just asked our mattress stores always money laundering fronts, because I have never seen a single person in a mattress store and there's 40 in my hometown.

Moyara Ruehsen 22:25

Yeah, yeah. Wow. 40 in their hometown. That's a lot.

Nick VinZant 22:29

If you've ever seen Tucson, Arizona, it's basically a college and 300 mattress stores. It's unbelievable. Like nobody knows what's going on. But I mean, are there certain types of businesses that kind of lend itself to like, oh, that might be? That's a little suspicious.

Moyara Ruehsen 22:46

Yeah, well, that many mattress stores? Yes, I would be suspicious. Again, when you think about traditional crimes, like drug trafficking, it you want cash intensive businesses, and I don't know that people are paying for mattresses with cash necessarily. So I would say a restaurant chain would be your best bet, like points or models for breaking bad reference. But, uh, but sure you, again, not everybody's using cash now. So we're using, you know, credit card payments and other kinds of payments. And if it's part of a longer money laundering, change? Sure. You know, it could be mattress stores, it could be anything.

Nick VinZant 23:34

Um, are there certain parts of the country or the world in which are kind of notorious for it? Hmm.

Moyara Ruehsen 23:41

It depends on what stage of the money laundering process we're talking about. So obviously, they're, they're in the early stages, the money laundering process, you're going to see that in places where there's a lot of criminal activity. If if it's using shell companies, for example, in the layering process, which is like the middle stage of money laundering. One of the easiest places to set up a shell company anonymously is in the United States, unfortunately, Nevada and Wyoming, in particular Delaware, as well but Delaware, I've heard that they are starting to collect beneficial ownership information on their the people who are setting up shell companies, London is still a really easy place to set up a shell company and and money launderers. Use those shell companies all the time, the more the better. And sometimes they'll just use it for a short period of time and then set up a new shell company. So I would say, you know, the US and the UK, unfortunately, are places that are at and abetting this type of criminal activity, but you'll also see money laundering take place in jurisdictions where there aren't many regulations. So for example, cryptocurrency exchanges that are, you know, licensed and registered in, you know, Europe and North America are really well regulated. And they have compliance departments that do, you know, criminal investigations all the time. But a cryptocurrency exchange in Moldova, you know, the probably not well regulated. I don't want to pick on Moldova, but I mean, just in other jurisdictions where you don't have a lot of enforcement. And for that matter, maybe even there's nothing to enforce, because there aren't any laws and regulations to stop these, you know, money service businesses from doing what they're doing.

Nick VinZant 26:01

Most famous example that you can think of like, and then most egregious example, and I think what they mean by that, and like, what was the biggest case? And then what was the one was like, gosh, man, you were just trying to get caught?

Moyara Ruehsen 26:18

Oh, there have been plenty of those where, you know, especially criminals that really want to flaunt their wealth. And, you know, they buy the red Maserati and drive around, make a lot of noise and show and, you know, they're attracting attention to themselves. So, yeah, I immediately think, oh, my gosh, you know, you were just trying to get caught when I hear about cases like that, but probably the most famous case, I think is one that your audience has never heard of. There was a Pakistani money launderer called Altaf nanny, who was, by the way, ultimately convicted and did serve time in a US prison and was only recently released within the last year, I think he is he was released early, and His sentence was relatively light. So I'm I suspect that he shared information about some of his criminal clients as part of his plea bargain. But he ran an extensive money laundering operation across the globe. And he laundered money for Mexican drug cartels for terrorist organizations, for biker gangs in Australia who were you know, selling meth, and word got out amongst, you know, criminal organizations that, oh, if you want your money laundered, he's the go to where that organization is the go to place to do it, because they were so cheap, you know, they would do it for less than a 5% commission. And they were able to do that because of economies of scale, since he had this network of money exchangers and Hawala DARS, which are also acting as money exchangers all over the world. And he also had, the hierarchy of the organization was well set up. So for example, let's say you're the Australian biker gang, in the meth business, you don't really know you know, who is in that organization, you're just handing off your dirty money to a mule who's going to collect it, or cash Korea, we call them cash for years. That cash courier is then going to hand it off to another middleman who doesn't even know who the criminal client is. And and then that that middleman is going to hand it off to another broker, who's gonna then going to hand it off to the money exchanger. So the money exchanger doesn't know where this money is coming from, either. And, you know, by dividing it up like that, if somebody gets caught, they really don't have enough Intel to share with law enforcement on you know, how this organization is set up. And then eventually, again, through this extensive global network of operators involved in this money laundering operation, eventually, the money would be wired from some offshore shell company, straight into the accounts of Australian biker gang.

Nick VinZant 30:01

How much do you know how much like he they estimate that he did? How much worth he did? Oh,

Moyara Ruehsen 30:07

I'm sure it was in the 10s of billions if not hundreds of billions, but they're not going to necessarily determine that because that's not going to affect his sentence. They just have to look, prove, in at least one case that that his organization was responsible for that. And then the investigators are going to stop there because it's too much time and they don't need that for conviction.

Nick VinZant 30:34

He's not going to make it much longer, though, I would imagine.

Moyara Ruehsen 30:37

Well, nobody knows where he is right now. Some people think that he is, you know, hiding somewhere in Pakistan, but he he was operating out of Dubai, a professional money laundering will use multiple countries, when they're moving the money and trying to, to hide his origin. What interesting development we're seeing is now the emergence of professional Chinese money launderers who are working with Mexican drug trafficking organizations, go figure.

Nick VinZant 31:12

So global economy, I guess,

Moyara Ruehsen 31:14

well, economy,

Nick VinZant 31:15

here's some of the here's some of the lighter ones, I guess, um, best TV show or movie that accurately depicts how it's done.

Moyara Ruehsen 31:24

Hmm. Ozark is a good one. You mentioned that earlier, especially the first couple seasons in the latest season. They're very vague about it. You know, they're working with shell companies and doing keeping track of it on the computer. They're not just, it was just good. You don't want it to be a how to manual for criminals, right. But some of the challenges that Marty faces in the first couple of seasons are very real. So they're very, it's very realistic.

Nick VinZant 32:01

The ones that I can think of that maybe would be like, Breaking Bad. Flash Better Call Saul, the soprano is maybe I can

Moyara Ruehsen 32:09

No, no, not so much the Sopranos. Breaking Bad is pretty good. Yeah, they the chow? Yeah, I would say Ozark and Breaking Bad are probably the best. In terms of illustrating the challenges that a money launderer faces at one point in Breaking Bad. Walter White's wife is the one who is supposed to know how to do this. So she's trying to help him launder the proceeds from this meth business. And she can't do it quickly enough. And so she, she takes him to a rental locker where all this money is piled up. And she said, you know, here it is, I can't I can't move it through the carwash business fast enough without Oh, yeah, red flags popping up.

Nick VinZant 33:04

That does seem like the issue, right. Like, eventually, there's just too much money involved, that there's just how can you do that? So much, you know, and that kind of, is there any TV show or movie that you that that's like, Oh, God, these people got that wrong?

Moyara Ruehsen 33:22

Yeah. I would say, anytime you see a TV show or movie, and it's happening less now, but in the past, you know, a decade ago or, you know, even older than that, where somebody opens up a briefcase, and, you know, says, Here's your $5 million. Mr. Bond, you know that there's no way you can fit $5 million into a briefcase. It's true.

Nick VinZant 33:54

Okay, put your feet to the fire on this one. Question. If you personally were to start laundering money, how long before you think you would get caught? Huh? Could you get away with it? Do you think using your expertise? Could you do it?

Moyara Ruehsen 34:18

Well, I think that I would know how to do it well, okay. But what I couldn't do is trust my criminal clients. You know, that it's no matter how well I do it. In terms of avoiding detection. My criminal clients can always turn me in.

Nick VinZant 34:40

That's pretty much all the questions that we got. Is there anything that you think that we missed or

Moyara Ruehsen 34:44

defi? Oh, let's

Nick VinZant 34:46

define what is

Moyara Ruehsen 34:47

a centralized finance and web 3.0. I think that you're going to see criminals exploring that avenue as as a way to hide and launch Under money because right now it's not very well regulated.

Nick VinZant 35:03

That makes a lot of sense, right? Like, that's the what? I think whatever people don't even know what it really is yet, then you've got the wild west there right

Moyara Ruehsen 35:12

right now and then people talk about privacy coins, as well, which, where you don't have a public blockchain where you can follow the money. And the problem there, though, is that it's really hard to launder those privacy coins. most reputable cryptocurrency exchanges are not going to exchange your privacy coins for Bitcoin or, you know, dollars. And, and so that's a problem. You know, you're not going to be able to buy a house, for example, if you're collecting your criminal revenue in the form of privacy coins.

Nick VinZant 35:51

But have you ever to kind of the existential question, right? Has Has the difficulty of money laundering ever stopped a criminal and the sense of like, well, I was gonna sell these drugs, but I can't launder the money. So I'm not.

Moyara Ruehsen 36:08

Not necessarily but what it does is it makes them jump through a lot of other hoops, it increases their cost of doing business, and it and they're going to start doing things that are suspicious that makes it easier for them to get caught. So maybe we can't catch them selling the drugs and smuggling the drugs. But we might maybe even be easier to catch them trying to launder the money.

Nick VinZant 36:35

It’s exposure.

Moyara Ruehsen

Mm hmm.

High-Altitude Mountaineer Lotta Hintsa

She can barely breathe, the avalanche snow reaches past her waist and it’s 40 below. But Mountaineer Lotta Hinsta couldn’t be happier. We talk mountaineering, the dangers of alpine life, breaking into the boys club and how she went from model to mountaineer. Then we countdown the Top 5 Popular but Unpopular Things.

Lotta Hintsa: 01:51ish

Pointless: 40:35

Top 5: 58:01ish

https://www.instagram.com/lottahintsa (Lotta Hinsta Instagram)

https://www.instagram.com/theswimfluencenetwork (SwimFluenceNetwork)

https://www.instagram.com/arlasuomi (Arla Suomi - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/up2unutrition (UP2U Nutrition - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/vitaminwell (Vitamin Well - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/karitraa (Kari Traa Sportswear - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/julbo_eyewear (Julbo Eyewear - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/donbowie (Don Bowie Instagram - Photos Courtesy of)

Interview with High-Altitude Mountaineer Lotta Hintsa

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, high altitude mountaineering, and the most popular, unpopular things,

Lotta Hintsa 0:23

oh, I absolutely loved the suffering. It's like that's how you go there, you would feel so alive when you're just so focused on in the moment like, and then the Snowbird just collapsed underneath me. And somehow I was able to just get my ice axe in my crampons and hold on to the row and above 8000 meters, you have about 24 hours until you die, you actually get to be yourself, your eye for one second, I didn't feel too short, or to this or to that, like what you always kind of feel like you're trying to measure up to some sort of sort of standard.

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest spends her life climbing some of the highest mountains on Earth. And she has this fascinating story, not just about what it's really like when you're 8000 meters 27,000 feet up there, but about not letting what people think you are, dictate the things that you want to do. Because the more uncomfortable conditions get, the happier she is. This is high altitude mountaineer lotta hintsa. When you look at like the difference between saying the backyard mountain, right, the 8000 9000 foot one, how is that different than the kinds of mountains that you're climbing when you're really getting up there.

Lotta Hintsa 2:02

So the difference is mostly the amount of oxygen that you can get into your system. So it's about 50% of the atmospheric pressure, pressure, sea level. So our body needs the oxygen to function aerobically. And when you're doing long distance, what you usually do on the mountains, it you use the aerobic system in your body a lot. So the higher you go, the harder it's function.

Nick VinZant 2:31

Is there a point where like, you're going up, say 4000 meters, 5000 meters, 6000 meters? Is there a certain Is it a gradual thing? Or is there a point where you're like, Oh, you suddenly really notice,

Lotta Hintsa 2:44

it's quite a bit about a climatization, as well. So our body can adjust to high altitude and the lack of oxygen pretty pretty well, it depends on a person as well. I have I seem to have the ability to acclimatized pretty easily to higher altitudes.

Nick VinZant 3:05

How long does it take you to kind of get used to the change to the higher altitude,

Lotta Hintsa 3:09

it takes about two weeks to acclimatized entirely. Then again, of course, this depends on the altitude as well, above 6500 meters, your body doesn't acclimatized anymore. So after that, the higher you go, the faster your body will just shut down.

Nick VinZant 3:27

Now that's the death zone, right? Is that the? Yes,

Lotta Hintsa 3:31

that is exactly the death zone. And above 8000 meters, you have about 24 hours until you die if you're not on supplemental oxygen. So a lot of climbers use supplemental oxygen to climb high. I've never used it. I never will. And just my style of climbing, going up against the mountain.

Nick VinZant 3:57

How did you kind of get into this,

Lotta Hintsa 4:00

a lot of my childhood I spent in Ethiopia. And we lived in Addis Abeba, which is like a mountain region itself. I just completely fell in love with the mountains in there. Finland where I'm from is completely flat. And in general, I've just always been I've loved the outdoors and had this like need to get to higher levels. So or just higher it's higher elevations when I was a kid my mom always tell the story, how I brought this really high chair like they had guests over. So I brought this chair in front of the earth yeah in front of everyone and just climbed on top of it and was like very proud of it. How I know climbed this high chair. I was to

Nick VinZant 4:47

know like when did you really get into the high alpine stuff like when did you start doing that?

Lotta Hintsa 4:55

Well, the extreme high altitude which is considered to be above 5000 meters. That was, Well, my first mountain like that was Kilimanjaro, which is basically I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but it's a bit of a walk in the park. And it felt like that to me, I was just really excited to be there. And because you do feel the effects of the altitude, my then husband, he started puking and feeling really, really sick. And I was just like, oh, this is so awesome. And this is so fun. And I just didn't. I mean, of course, I was trying to be nice to him and empathetic towards him. But it was just, I thought it was just so cool to feel the challenge of what it brings to you that you're not getting enough oxygen, because there's ways to mitigate that to like, the way you breathe, the way you move, you need to be very strategic when you go up there, especially if you're doing it without supplemental oxygen. So 2016 was, was the year I got into the higher and then has been higher and higher and higher. And

Nick VinZant 6:14

for for somebody who's never been up that hot. Like what is that like?

Lotta Hintsa 6:19

Well, last summer, me and my climbing partner splash nowadays life partner as well slash my coach, we were on Broad Peak, which is above 26,000 feet. And for the first three weeks, we were the only two people on the mountain, we climbed without ropes, if we had used ropes, we put them in ourselves, we always carry our own stuff, it's very independent. But when you're when we're tackling a lot of snow, like much more than usual. So how I described it to someone who asked how it feels to climb a mountain, just the two of you, when you're Breaking Trail, which is like exhausting, especially when the snow is like up to your waist at times, you can't breathe as much oxygen as you would like. So it's kind of like having three face masks on top of each other. And then you're carrying almost half of your weight. And then you're doing like step ups onto a bench at a gym. With with the weight on and with the masks on. And sometimes the bench just collapses underneath you. So do that for I don't know, 10,000 reps. And then you get to camp one.

Nick VinZant 7:46

But then you get to camp one, right? Then you get to the first part of like four or five camps, I'm assuming Yeah. Is for

God, that sounds really hard. So now to be able to do this, is it simply you need to have this amount of physical training and everybody in anybody have average athletic ability? If they put in the time training? They could accomplish this? Or do you need to have there's something about you, your body the way that you're designed? Do you have to have that? Right? Can you just work and get here or is like, look, some people genetically can do this. And some people just can't,

Lotta Hintsa 8:27

I do believe that there is quite a bit of genetic predisposition. Because even when, so the way I started climbing, like I just dropped everything else sold my house and just started climbing like full time. That was three and a half years ago after my current coach, Don Bowie. He's one of the best climbers in the world. And we ended up on the same mountain in same base camp. And almost no one climbed that year, we were on Aconcagua, which is the highest mountain outside of the Himalayas, almost 7000 meters. And we made it into like, a record time, like in really good time, from camp to, to the summit in super bad conditions. We were the 10th and the 11th or something like that, during that season, who had even made it to the summit, because the conditions were just really bad. And I just kind of floated it. I hadn't been training methodically for for like, this sport. And he was just like, I don't care who you're going to climb with, but you need to start climbing hard. And if you give me a year, I'll make you a beast. So it's like, just a second I'll do a little arrangement. And, and yeah, so I got a few sponsors. I was Miss Finland in 2013. And I was in the like, I've been doing quite a bit of work in the public eye in entertainment industry. For at that point for quite a few years, so I had connections. And my first sponsors for the year were a lingerie company and makeup company, super food company and a jewelry company. So not the basic or the usual, high altitude climbers.

Nick VinZant 10:21

Has that then as you've kind of gotten into the community has that been? Have they received you as one of their own? Or have you always been like that? Here comes the model here comes to social media girl, or have do you think that they've kind of influenced or accepted you? And I don't mean that, like, you shouldn't be, you know what I mean?

Lotta Hintsa 10:42

No, I get it. Yeah. Well, one of my goals in life or kind of like themes in life has been just breaking barriers or glass ceilings, I feel like whatever I've done in my life, whether it's been working as a very young store manager or jumping from, I graduated from business and economics, and then suddenly became Miss Finland. And just like, I've had quite quick turn, turnarounds, or people have felt like they're quick turnarounds. But for me, it has all been based in curiosity. And where I've felt like my attraction point in life is and it's adventure, and it's going towards fear and it's going towards challenges. So So yeah, I've, I've definitely noticed that there is there is this. Like, I've been called a mascot. Like when I was doing a winter expedition on broadpeak with two of the best climbers in the world, people outside, like we were three people on this mountain, it was around, I'd say, I don't know Fahrenheit that well, but I know minus 40 Celsius and minus 40 Fahrenheit or the say, so it was around that temperature. We're climbing blue. Yeah, we're climbing blue ice, it's like you make one mistake, you're at the bottom of the mountain and kilometres of like, just climbing ice. So it's, it was definitely very cool for me like a big learning curve. But at the same time, I did hold my own, I carried my like, my weight. And I, I was I had, like, righteously I had my place in that team. So hearing stuff, like, Oh, who's carrying your makeup, and she's just the mask on? I'm like, you'll see. It's not my business. Like if someone has, has these prejudices, it's more than more their problem than mine.

Nick VinZant 12:42

Well, I guess what do you like? What keeps you coming back? What do you think is like the ultimate draw of it for you, putting myself

Lotta Hintsa 12:49

out there facing the challenges, feeling discomfort going towards things that might feel scary. I don't really ever feel scared, I acknowledge that this is like a dangerous situation. But I need to focus really, really hard. And I can mitigate the situation. That's what I bring into my training, like I train, depending on the cycle, but 20 to 30 hours a week of endurance during the endurance period. And then we have like, more technical training periods or cycles and more like strength based but I just, I work my ass off. So I bring that idea of like, this will make me be better in this in this situation I can take on the mountain. Like every time I go to a mountain I want to take the mountain on on its terms and not bring the mountain down to my level,

Nick VinZant 13:51

as there have been a shift in climbing like this. I don't know if this is the right word, the climbing like ethos or perspective in which, you know, I used to watch these things about right like the documentary going up at Everest. And I always wondered like, it looks like everybody somebody else is doing all the work. Right. Like they got the Sherpas just fixing the ropes and carrying the stuff there been a shift where like, No, you got to do this whole thing yourself.

Lotta Hintsa 14:14

Um, I hope there is a bit more but I do see more and more of this kind of, I mean, last year on Broad Peak, it ended up in a death of a climber because there were people who were not experienced enough to be there. And we were involved in a bunch of our few rescue operations. And it just I wish there was more of this. I will apprentice and like take a step by step by step but nowadays because this is an exaggeration, but you kind of want the picture on the summit on your Instagram page. And then To get there, you need to use a lot of money and just pay for someone to get you up there. It's but then when something goes wrong, you don't know what to do. And people don't know what to do

Nick VinZant 15:16

when you go in terms of like, alright, from your average mountain? Obviously, it's different for every single one. But is it generally? Like how long of a trip are you looking? Usually looking at you like you've got to, it's gonna take you this long, you got to cover this many kilometers, this much vertical. Like I know that every mountain is obviously different. But in general, kind of like, what are you preparing for?

Lotta Hintsa 15:39

Like you said, every mountain is different. But basically, I would say that the higher the mountain along it longer you need to be on the mountain or at the base of the mountain. acclimatized waiting for weather windows, like that's the most. To me, it's the hardest part of expeditions like you might sit in Basecamp for 10 days, just waiting for the weather window to open. So you get to like, either go up, and acclimatized or have a summit push, but an 8000 meter peak. So there are 14 8000 meter peaks in the world. And they usually take about two months, even more to climb, but then you go to 7000 like Aconcagua in South America in Argentina, and it's 1000 meters lower. And three weeks max,

Nick VinZant 16:35

there's that much of a difference just in that 1000 meters. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Is that just because that 8000 meter peak, is that much bigger than a 7000 meter peak? Or because No, having that much less oxygen is going to take you that much longer? Yeah, it's the oxygen. So if you go above like the death zone, right, like the thing that I've always heard, is that okay, your body is basically dying. Once you're up here. Once you go back below, are you like, you're back to normal? Or are there long term effects that like, you have taken this out of your body, and it's not coming back.

Lotta Hintsa 17:16

In general, I always do feel weaker after a long expedition. But the use of supplemental oxygen that helps a lot in mitigating those, those symptoms, like you're just not functioning the same way. Like when you're, especially when you're climbing without supplemental oxygen, it compromises like all of the functions of your body. Like, when we went on winter Broad Peak, my Iman partner told me like, it's 5050, that you will lose a finger or a nose or something. Because when you're, you're just your blood circulation doesn't work the same way it doesn't work as effectively. And the first place it leaves is your fingers or like the extremities of your body. Yeah, and there is a saying that we do lose brain cells up into higher elevation. So yeah, sure, if we can ever recover, though.

Unknown Speaker 18:14

It's it's a debatable topic. We

Nick VinZant 18:16

did have a neuros, a neuroscientist on once, who said, Oh, you kind of replaced them. Just don't replace the ones you really need. That's what he's like you replaced the ones that have kind of like, keep your body moving, but not the ones. Notice it affects you like do your decision making at all?

Lotta Hintsa 18:33

Yes, it does affect your decision making. And you just feel like your brains work much slower. So far, I've I've felt pretty good. Like, as high as I've gone. I've always felt in control. And that's the thing you have to make the decision beforehand that you will never because you're every time you put yourself in a position where something bad can happen to you. You're compromising the lives and the safety of everyone else on the mountain as well. Like personally, I'm if there's something going wrong, I've left a summit push three times I've failed on while failed to me it wasn't a failure, because it was such a big cool adventure in general. And like, I don't go on these mountains for the summit. I go for the journey. But three times I've left a mountain without a summit because there has been a rescue situation, whether no matter how, like involved I've been but still I've taken that step back. And a lot of people when they go on these mountains, they think that this was what they would do. But you sort of go into default mode. And you see a lot of this kind of people come back and say that I never thought I would behave or act that way. Is

Nick VinZant 19:58

that a common thing though? up, they're like, Look, you get in trouble, nobody's coming for you.

Lotta Hintsa 20:05

You can't go there and expect someone to help you. And that's one of the issues that a lot of people do when they pay big money that someone's going to help you. But you got to be there with an attitude and with the knowledge that if everything else disappears around you like your safety net, every other person, you don't have ropes, ropes are taken down by an avalanche. You're just left with your ice tools, your ice axes and your crampons that you can get down the mountain by yourself. But a lot of people rely on the ropes so much. Like you don't necessarily even need to bring an ice ice axe to Everest nowadays anymore, because you can just use this Jumar thingy that you slide up the rope and it doesn't come down.

Nick VinZant 20:51

But that you know, is that for more kind of the like the tourist alpinist stuff, right? Like the the hardcore of the hardcore isn't doing that though.

Lotta Hintsa 21:01

90 II know 95% 90 to 95% of people who go up on these expeditions nowadays. Climb like that. Wow. But it's, it's, it's made easy. So like, why not?

Nick VinZant 21:16

Has then then like for people who are still kind of looking for like the true experience, then, like, where are they going for that? Right? Like if Everest is now Disney World, I'm being dramatic, obviously. But if Everest is now like, Where? Where are you going for the real stuff?

Lotta Hintsa 21:34

Well, definitely the 14 8000 meter peaks are very popular at the moment. That's kind of like the I don't know if you've heard of the Seven Summits? Yeah, yeah. But it's like climbing the highest mountain of every continent. And now it's become more like the 14 8000 meter peaks. So you'll climb all the 8000 meter peaks in the world. But I'd say that a lot of a lot of climbers that I know and climb with, are looking for experiences outside the normal routes. And that's kind of where, okay, let's just say that I'm gravitated towards routes outside of the normal routes. So it's more about just me and the mountain or just me my climbing partner and, and the mountain. So that's, that's where my future goals are. And future plans. It doesn't have to be an 8000 meter peak. There are a bunch of mountains that you throw a rock rock in the air and it reaches 8000. So it's like, I'm, I'm cool with the height not starting with an eight. As long as it's a fun route.

Nick VinZant 22:46

Are you ready for some harder slashed listener submitted questions? Yes. Did you hear my voice crack? I said that like I was a

Unknown Speaker 22:53

little boy. I've been a little sniffling.

Lotta Hintsa 22:56

Okay. Um, okay, well, no, I'm not sure if I'm ready. No,

Nick VinZant 23:01

right, right. Um, this is I like this question. Can you enjoy it? Or is it so physically difficult, that you're just suffering through the whole thing? Oh, I

Lotta Hintsa 23:13

absolutely loved the suffering. It's like, that's how you go there, you would feel so alive when you're just so focused on in the moment, like, there's no room for any other stress factors other than where you are at the moment. And I don't know I get this weird kick. Like, the harder it gets. I'm like, Oh, now we're getting started. So I do a lot of ultra runs as well. So the first 15 hours is boring, because you're just like, kind of suffering start already. And then you're like, Okay, now we're, now it gets interesting.

Nick VinZant 23:46

But does that ruin everyday life then? Right? Because I know that like people like yourself, you go on these massive adventures. But that can't be that much. Like does it ruin then? The kind of common commonality of everyday life or like alright, Tuesday's laundry day. Does it make everything else seem less impressive?

Lotta Hintsa 24:06

I get what you mean. I do. A lot of stuff that feels interesting. Like, even training that you tell someone to go on a stair stepper for five hours inside what looked like just staring at the same wall. You just change your mentality. You're like, Okay, well, not most most people couldn't do this or wouldn't want to do this. So take the challenge on and see how how I can make this interesting.

Nick VinZant 24:38

You've been on the Stairmaster for five hours straight.

Lotta Hintsa 24:42

Yes, five days in a week. That sounds like

Nick VinZant 24:44

the worst experience in all of life. That sounds terrible. What do you do? Like what how do you he's watching movies.

Lotta Hintsa 24:52

It's no I answer or reply to emails and messages and Sometimes I do like Instagram, Q and A's and that kind of stuff. Yeah, you'd have to. I always invent things. Yeah. Listen to music.

Nick VinZant 25:10

Five hours on a Stairmaster? Oh my gosh, that's

Lotta Hintsa 25:14

like an average. Sometimes it's four. Sometimes it's six.

Nick VinZant 25:18

Only four hours on it,

Unknown Speaker 25:20

man.

Nick VinZant 25:21

So then how many calories do you have to eat in a day?

Lotta Hintsa 25:24

I like, I have zero food rules other than not have food rules and eat a lot. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 25:31

No, will you? Will your body go through big changes during one of those expeditions? Right, like we just had a guy on that was solo sailing around the world. And he would say, Well, when I sail from LA to Hawaii, I know I'm gonna lose 25 pounds.

Lotta Hintsa 25:43

Um, so I always try to gain weight before I go on an expedition, which is sometimes hard because you're just training so much. But you do lose some body mass, mostly, it's muscle, which sucks. So that's why you can't really go on back to back expeditions if you're climbing without supplemental oxygen, because the effect is, is bigger that way. But then I just eat a lot. In Basecamp.

Nick VinZant 26:08

It's eat as much as you can get. It's like,

Lotta Hintsa 26:11

yeah, I try to aim at for four to 5000

Nick VinZant 26:15

calories. How do you go to the bathroom up there?

Lotta Hintsa 26:19

That is always the second question. Like, whenever I'm in a public speaking situation, people like try to soften things up with another question. And then they go to that. So I'm, there depends if you're in base camp, or if you're up on the mountain. But let's just say that, for example, if you're going for number two, sometimes your climbing partner has to belay you from the tent, so that you can go down a little like roped up. And, and there's situations where you're doing that stuff in very sketchy places, just hoping that your tombstone won't say that died while pooping. But it's, it's like a bathroom with a view.

Nick VinZant 27:00

That's it that actually leads us perfectly in this next question, what's the view like,

Lotta Hintsa 27:04

oh, great, amazing. This is what I tell people that because many people think that you need to get to the summit to enjoy the view. But wherever you you are in life. And whatever your journey or mountain it's like, look back, like every 10 or 100, or at least 1000 meters and just enjoy where you are. Look back how far you've come. And that actually works as a pretty good analogy for a lot of things in life. But always look back to see how far you've come

Nick VinZant 27:37

scariest situation you have ever faced.

Lotta Hintsa 27:41

This was one of those good lessons as well. We were coming down from broad peak last summer. And I was sort of like, it didn't focus anymore, because we're almost off the mountain. And there's big crevasse at the base of the mountain or Bertrand is the real name, but it's like a crevasse. And there's a snow bridge on top of it. So basically, it's like a very, you'll never know how thick the snow bridges and when it will collapse. But there was like an obvious spot where you need to go over it and then a spot where you definitely don't want to go over it. And I was just, I don't know, focusing on the french fries and pancakes and Basecamp that I was going to get soon. So I just didn't look and I was unbroken. I had my socks and my other hand crampons on. And I was holding on to a rope. So that was a very good thing. But kind of loosely and then the snow bridge just collapsed underneath me. And somehow I was able to just get my ice axe in my crampons and hold on to the row and got myself from like, out of there. And I was just laughing hysterically. I don't that was like a weird reaction. But it was just like, I was close and my climbing partner was like What did you just do? Why didn't you watch where you were going? And yeah, so finished with focus. That's a good lesson.

Nick VinZant 29:12

And then I would imagine if you wouldn't have stopped then that was the end Yeah, that close that quickly. Right like that kind of adheres like they have this is a mother question we got is like what where do people die? Like what what kills people up on the mountains?

Lotta Hintsa 29:31

So high altitude sickness is definitely one of the reasons. So you're either your brains or your lungs start filling up with water. And because of the altitude there's you can look those up if you want to know more. But then I think the objective dangerous are always there, but those you can mitigate by learning to read the mountain Sometimes you need to roll the dice a little and understand that you are taking some certain risk. So rockfall avalanches? Well, yeah, severe weather. Like the weather changes cold. But then other people is one of the dangers nowadays as well, especially if you're on a very popular route. And there's some sort of things like St. Kitts that not everyone necessarily knows. For example, if you kick a rock, you're supposed to yell rock, like really hard. I almost got killed last summer with someone dropping a rock that went like that close to my head at I don't know, but must have been at least like 50 miles per hour speed, this big chunk. And it was like, if it would have hit my face, I would have dropped it right there. Me and so and then just your own mistakes. That's that's one thing, but ropes that break

Nick VinZant 31:07

on pretty much every expedition, are you going to have like, yeah, you pretty much gonna almost die on every expedition at some point?

Lotta Hintsa 31:15

I hope not. I hope not. I don't think I had, I've had like, things that could have ended badly on a lot of expeditions. But then there's a lot of situations where your know that you made the right call. And then that's why nothing happened. So I think it's a lot about learning and knowing what you're getting into, so that you can mitigate those risks and just train your butt off so that you're, you'll be faster on the mountain, so you'll be less exposed to the objective risks. But just I hope it won't be every time that there is a story like that last summer was just crazy. It was like gut punch after punch and gut punch. And then you get up again, and then you fall down again and you get up again. So it was it was a hard one. But I published a book about it. So that's became a good adventure. Good for you. And it was actually yeah, and in the end, I was so exhilarated that it was like, every single time I was brought down. We still got back up. So it was just like, testing your strength. And in the end, I was like cool. I actually was able to get up every time that something happened. Like just get even through, like frustration and tears. I'd still get back off on my feet and try again until my visa ended and then we left the country.

Unknown Speaker 32:40

Ultimately it comes down to the government doesn't it? I can I can beat the weather and the mountain and myself but the government red tape is what's ultimately Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Nick VinZant 32:55

what is the next what is your holy grail? What's the thing that like, Ooh, this is this is this is what I want to do.

Lotta Hintsa 33:04

I don't think I can tell you because this has happened to me before that I've said my dreams out loud and then someone else went and did it because our Yeah, that's our sort of how we what we aspire to do is do and I haven't really done anything. I mean, I've done cool stuff but nothing that has gone into historic books yet. So our history books, but um yeah, there there are keep it secret new new routes Yeah, new routes or first first attempts or first summits that fired

Nick VinZant 33:42

okay, that to do that makes sense. Right? Like you can't tip your hat

Lotta Hintsa 33:48

Yeah, like if you tell that I want to be the first first woman to do this and this are the first person to do this in this it's often with a mountain the sight there is no he or she you just write the mountain doesn't care if you're a man or a woman.

Nick VinZant 34:02

What is your favorite climbing related movie here

Lotta Hintsa 34:05

climbing related movie? I don't watch a lot of them because I pick them apart a lot. Like, I'll be like, they shouldn't be doing that. They shouldn't be doing that. That's not possible to do that and that kind of stuff. So I think I watched Everest the like the 96 year stretch and try to tragedy and I was just like, I couldn't focus because that was just Noid by little mistake.

Nick VinZant 34:33

What what is something though that like you would notice that I wouldn't notice at all like climbers like yourself would be like, Oh my God drives me nuts. But for me, I would be I wouldn't notice at all.

Lotta Hintsa 34:45

Like good thing like someone being without proper eye shields high up in altitude and you're just like, that person's gonna burn their eyes. Like you just got to put your sunglasses on or you're gonna burn your eyes. I've done that a few times. And it's so painful. But I have never gone Snowblind. But I've like had the worst feeling in my eyes. And in a lot of these movies, there's just people like hanging out up there, there without their eye shields or without their gloves for a really long time. And you're just like, that person might lose a finger Sue. That kind of stuff for them, like looking at their harnesses and being like, I wonder why they're carrying that thing up this mountain because every single gram counts, but wire like, yeah, that kind of thing. I have equipment. I have

Nick VinZant 35:37

once also burned my eyes. And that was the worst. Like, oh my gosh, that's the worst. So painful. Yes, awful. You don't make that mistake again.

Lotta Hintsa 35:47

I've made it twice.

Nick VinZant 35:48

Well, I didn't make that.

Unknown Speaker 35:51

Well, you are not. You are not ready for these mountains. Let me tell you, as a person who has walked 10 Miles once you are not prepared. Get out of here. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 36:07

Best food to eat after getting off the mountain

Lotta Hintsa 36:10

and french fries and pancakes. Oh, yeah. They just like they're awesome. And in Basecamp, for some reason, like they're at 5000 meters in Basecamp. They're just the best. I think it's the saltiness of the French fries. That helps. Like you need salt.

Nick VinZant 36:30

Alright, oh, I could see that. That's pretty much all the questions I have. Is there, like anything else that you think we missed? Or like what's kind of coming up next for you?

Lotta Hintsa 36:38

Well, next for me is this exciting new adventure. So I'm part of the Sports Illustrated swim search. And there were 1000s of applications and 13. were chosen. We did a photoshoot in Dominican Republic, I believe at least what I saw from the screen that these shots will be amazing. So yeah, part of that.

Nick VinZant 37:04

Is that kind of like, what's that? Like? Is it what you expected? Or is it like, Whoa, this is really something big?

Lotta Hintsa 37:10

Well, definitely, whoa, this is something really big. I mean, the atmosphere at the shoot was just something out of this world. I've never been on a shoot like that. And I think it was mostly because the way everyone was just so kind of, I have the saying about redefining femininity. And I've been told so many times on the mountains that don't bring out your femininity, or that your feminine side, because that will make you less legitimate of a climber. And I don't understand that this is kind of like the message I got about being part of the swim search as well. And there. So I've decided that anything that I do on the mountains, because I'm doing it as a woman, it's feminine. Like if whether it's peeing in a bottle, or taking some cool dress, photos up on a glacier or up on the mountain, it's, that's feminine to me. And the way si redefines femininity, like, for example, I have a little ego, which is like, some parts of my body just don't get a tan or color. So they were just like before in photoshoots everyone's been photoshopping them or trying to cover them up with makeup and that kind of stuff. And they were just like, we loved love your vitiligo, we want to show it off, rather than cover it up. So there's this kind of the message that they have is so powerful, because it's you actually get to be yourself, like your eye for one second, I didn't feel too short. Or to this or to that, like what you always kind of feel like you're trying to measure up to some sort of sort of standard when you're at a photo shoot, like, or any photo shoot I've ever done before. And this was just like, be you we love you the way you are. And yeah, and that's the message they put out. Like, I think they put it out really well for all the world to see. So it's, it's really cool. They're very powerful that way,

Nick VinZant 39:17

you know, we talked a little bit about the idea like like the mountain doesn't care what you look like or if you're a man or a woman. Do you get pushback, right? Like do you is it different being a woman in what I would assume is kind of a boys club or do I know nothing about this?

Lotta Hintsa 39:36

You're pretty much right. You either need to kind of like I said, Bring out your traditional femininity, less or then you're considered a mascot. And I think um I like proving people wrong, so I don't mind

Erotic Hypnotist Glitter Goddess

Sit back, relax and let Glitter Goddess guide you as we slide into the world of Erotic Hypnotism. We talk sexual hypnotism, mesmerizing, domination, building a business and finding the courage to try something new. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kitchen Appliances.

Glitter Goddess: 02:05ish

Pointless: 42:42ish

Top 5: 55:27ish

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Interview with Erotic Hypnotist Glitter Goddess

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode of erotic hypnotism and kitchen appliances,

Glitter Goddess 0:22

it's it's like we get to be stars in our own movie or our own play, where we can lay things out. And sometimes it's easier to do that with through hypnosis, but you're bringing in the elements of sexual newness. So you're exploring an intimate kind of world with somebody, I really love hearing what turns people on and then being able to enjoy, like, where I can take that and what I can add. So there's a whole fetish that I get to play with quite a bit, which is cuckolding. I had somebody come and do that once while I was playing with a lover upstairs. And he was so bad at windows, I never had him come back again. And sir, he left streaks fucking everywhere. I was like,

Nick VinZant 1:03

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think the best way to introduce you to our first guest, is to play a sample of one of our clips.

Glitter Goddess 1:21

Thinking is overrated. Now's the time to relax the time to feel the time to let all of those ideas swimming in your head.

Start to get soft and liquid and slide right out of your mind into the ether.

Nick VinZant 1:45

This is erotic hypnotist glitter goddess. Quick note, this is a little bit longer than most of our interviews. But it gets more and more and more interesting as we go along. And I think that she has a really good message at the end. What is erotic hypnosis,

Glitter Goddess 2:07

I'd say it's a journey that you can take with somebody else. And it's kind of like, if you can imagine like a guided meditation, but you're bringing in the elements of sexual pneus. So you're exploring an intimate kind of world with somebody?

Nick VinZant 2:24

Like what's the sexual part of it? Is it the hypnosis itself? Or is it getting somebody into a state where they can kind of be relaxed?

Glitter Goddess 2:36

Well, hypnosis itself can be a fetish of its own. And it can also be added to any sort of proclivity or curiosity that someone has. And so I'll ask them questions and learn a few things about them. So I kind of know where to guide things. I'm also a dominant person. So I'm really leading that experience. And then there's no wrong way for the person who's receiving to then just lay back, relax, see where the journey takes us. Add in elements, so they're not just a total bystander, it's actually something that we end up creating together. But it really seems like I'm doing all of the talking all of the working all of the playing maybe even a little manipulation, things like that.

Nick VinZant 3:21

Now, is this kind of a I don't know if the right word is fetish, or kink or whatever the right word would be? Is this an offshoot of something else? Or is this kind of like this is its own thing?

Glitter Goddess 3:32

I think it's really its own thing. I mean, the weirdest thing for me, which is the most enjoyable part about my work is that so many things in the world can be a turn on for people. And so for some people that totally like grosses them out, like oh my god, a chair could turn someone on or like, you know, like, shouldn't we have this a little bit more controlled? That for me, I'm like, I love to take a take a walk, take a gander into somebodies mind and actually find out what makes them titillated, and then explore that more. The thing

Nick VinZant 4:06

that I wonder is like, How do you How did you find this? How do people like discover this about themselves? Because it doesn't seem like the thing that like, right, it's not on the front page of Pornhub, so to speak.

Glitter Goddess 4:20

It was hugely popular when I first started getting started being a dominatrix. And I honestly cannot remember how I began doing it. It was just natural. It felt like something that I would all like that I've just always done.

Nick VinZant 4:37

Is it purely sexual? I mean, obviously the name erotic hypnosis you would think it's purely sexual, but is it purely sexual? Or some people like you know what I kind of stressed out from work instead of watching a YouTube video I'm gonna check this out.

Glitter Goddess 4:51

I think it could be going in that direction a little bit more. I usually people are coming for some some erotic elements. So basically what I say it's a little naughty, but you know, clip it out if it if it must be, but I let them know that, you know, we take deep breaths together at the beginning, it's very, very relaxed, very casual, because I'm guiding. So there's nothing they have to do. And, and then let them know that at any time, and I can't see them for the most part. Occasionally I'll do a cam session, but mostly, it's just each other's voices, we're talking on the phone at any time, if you'd like to attach themselves anywhere they can. So it's really their choice how how they want to experience that part of the pleasure,

Nick VinZant 5:35

know, when you say, guiding them. This may sound like the same thing, but in my mind, I feel like it's different. Are you guiding them or telling them what to do?

Glitter Goddess 5:47

Oh, good question, am I guiding them or telling them what to do? Well, being that I am a dominant person, I wouldn't say it's more like telling them what to do. But I do have more of a seductive side of my domination, some people are more forceful, and yell and a little, you know, demeaning all the time. And I tend to, I tend to do whatever works. And for an individual, and it can be a totally different thing that can invite somebody to try something that they've never done before. But usually, usually, it's it's telling them what to do.

Nick VinZant 6:28

Do you enjoy that part of it? Or is that like, Alright, I got to do this now.

Glitter Goddess 6:34

I enjoy that very much I am. I like, I like being inspired. So when each person has something different that turns them on, I get to add that to my whole let's say artists box of, of things that can turn me on, or give me ideas or inspire me or different fantasies. So someone has like a specific fantasy, that's like really exciting to me, that's like a new color in the palette to play with. I really love hearing what turns people on and then being able to enjoy, like, where I can take that and what I can add

Nick VinZant 7:14

is now but is there a commonality in most of it like okay, you're coming to erotic hypnosis, you got to check this box, check this box and check this box because this is what the people are going to want.

Glitter Goddess 7:26

It's it's really different from person to person. And the relaxation part can be kind of similar, like I take people down into this relaxation kind of similarly. And so that actually becomes a bit of something that they look forward to each time because it that that sense of melting and relaxing and letting things go letting things from your day go. That that is something that they get to look forward to at the beginning of each session and then we get to explore where where to go from there

Nick VinZant 7:59

is most of your business is it creating clips and putting them out like on clips for sale or any of those kinds of places? Or is it more on the phone,

Glitter Goddess 8:08

it's a bit of both I have clips on quite a number of stores online. And I love being able to talk with people one on one so for me, it's been so wonderful how it's been just more and more assessable to people to be able to get clips to be able to call to be able to interact in multiple ways now but but it's easy. The weird part is it's really easy for me to connect with people while making videos. So a comment I get all the time as if it feels like you made that video just for me

Nick VinZant 8:44

on a scale of like one to 10 with 10 being the most mainstream thing you can like missionary position the most main thing stream thing you can think about and one being whatever I don't even know where like on the scale of popularity Do you think that this would be maybe somewhere

Glitter Goddess 9:05

in the middle and I think it would go in the middle because hypnosis is almost like a carrier for something it's I don't know why I'm thinking of essential oils right now I'm not even like trained in essential oils but in essential oils so the essential oils are something that's like a carrier oil and you can add other things to it but like let's say you apply something to your skin it doesn't burn you because you've got this carrier oil. So anyway, it's maybe not the best description in the world but I hypnosis can, can carry with it. Pretty much any kink or fetish and especially now during times where we might not be interacting in person as much with people but still desire an intimate connection with somebody. We can talk about. Really 10 Tip number 10 level things, which is really just like, hey, you've got a body, I've got a body, we find each other attractive, let's let's, you know, just kind of have fun with that, too, like some of the most extreme things that, like you said, you might not even know what they are, I might not know what they are either. And that would only be mitigated by my interests. So if our interests wouldn't overlap, then you know, wouldn't wouldn't work out. But basically, hypnosis, like anything can be added to it and explored more deeply through that than, let's say, a phone conversation without the hypnotic elements.

Nick VinZant 10:37

So I'll use an example from somebody who works in the adult industry that we've interviewed before, just to kind of have a place to jump off this conversation necessarily. So when you mean it's kind of like a gateway, let's say that somebody is attracted to watching people eat cheese, which is something that a former guest of ours that was welcome most biggest request is like, I want to see you eat cheese. So then if that was this person's interest, would they be hypnotized? And then wants you to eat cheese? Or would they want you to eat cheese? And then hypnotize them? Or like, how would this go, if this makes any sense at all to you?

Glitter Goddess 11:18

Oh, it does make sense, I don't really get requests like that the kind of requests that I get are more like, I have to in the company goddess. So it's like Goddess, I have to manage a group of people at work, I am under so much stress, I just want to have you be in charge and just show me what I can do. That'll make you happy and turn you on. And so then that's what we'll explore in the session. So it's much more common, instead of like, a specific thing that I'm supposed to do. It's more like, what is it that they're wanting to add to their lives, okay, so they have to be dominant in their lives, and they don't really love the weight of that it's a bit of a heavy burden. So it might be just putting that aside and actually taking orders not having to make any decisions whatsoever, but having me be their decision maker, it's actually a relief for them to be able to, to let that go. As far as specific fetishes go, though, like, for example, it's really common for for a request for me to be wearing pantyhose during like, let's say we have like a cam session together. Someone would like to see me wearing pantyhose, that's that is an option. And there's something about pantyhose that can be totally hypnotic, like that texture and the way that it looks on my skin, that little barrier between, you know, their touch, and my warm skin, then, then that kind of request would be okay, but I've never had anybody asked me to eat cheese. Actually don't even like cheese.

Nick VinZant 12:55

Is there a kind of like a typical clientele? I know that everybody can be different? But would you say that like alright, well, they fit this general kind of a pattern?

Glitter Goddess 13:04

Yeah, yeah, I would say my typical clientele would be somebody who has tried out what is supposed to be a satisfying normal sexual experience, and has just found that to be not as satisfying as what other guys seem to talk about. So it's like going out and meeting girls and having sex like somebody that they might meet at a bar. And, or maybe even they've tried, maybe they've been married or had several girlfriends. And it really tried to find like a connection through all the things that we're supposed to be satisfied with in life. And the or at least society says we're supposed to be satisfied by that. And it just hasn't met those kind of expectations. And then they start to veer a little bit, oftentimes, they might be searching things and for they're like porn keywords, and one thing leads to another, maybe they find me, and they realize that they can bring exactly who they are to the table. And that's one thing that's so important to me is like being being that person in someone's life where they don't have to be embarrassed of who they are. They don't have to be any different than who they are. They don't have to pretend like they're not turned on by the things that do light them up. And they don't also have to pretend to be a sort of alpha masculine in charge, kind of person. And I think there's a lot of I mean, we've heard this like phrase, I think a lot like toxic masculinity, the sense of like, this overbearing, maybe like forceful kind of a guy. And I think it leaves men in general and in society now like in a really tough position, because you're, you're expected to be so many things, but those things that you're expected to be are never the same thing. So it's like everybody would have a different perspective on how you're supposed To be as a man, and I find that exhausting even to think about much less having to live that. So part of what's really important to me is to create that safe space where it's like, look exactly how you are, is, is perfect to me, like exactly who you are, is, is who I want to get to know,

Nick VinZant 15:17

when your clients come to you, are they? I don't want this to sound like a judgment call, right? It's more just kind of understanding where people are coming from. Are they hesitant about it? Are they embarrassed about it? Are they like ashamed about it? Or they feel like this is what I like? And give me some of that are right?

Glitter Goddess 15:37

That is a super good question. Because it actually it's across the board. It's all of those things that you mentioned. And I've been doing it enough years now that like, it's pretty common for me to take a call because I'm on some platforms where like, I can just turn my light on. And I can get a call from anybody. And so I just pick up the phone and I'm like, Okay, where's this gonna go? Who is this that I get to explore with? And, and it is often that they're like, Goddess, I've been watching your videos. For years, I have never gotten the courage to call. But today I saw your line was on. And I just I don't even know what to say I just wanted to say hi, and thank you. And like that just melts me because I'm just like, I'm so honored. Of course, that's just such a thrill for me. Like being a dominant woman like here. It's like, I didn't even know that this person had been spending years watching my videos, and then I get to talk with them. It's so exciting.

Nick VinZant 16:30

I've always wondered what that was like, right? Like in the sense that how people like yourself. Like, is that weird? Because you know what people are doing?

Glitter Goddess 16:38

Oh, yes. And I love that.

Nick VinZant 16:40

What about it? Like? Do you like the tension necessarily? Or is it just like you like that somebody is doing that to you? Or like what about it? Is your cup of tea?

Glitter Goddess 16:54

That is also a great question. And I love the attention. I love the admiration. I love the lust. I think I'm always i i It's not that I think I know I'm a bit of an exhibitionist. I think it's just a part of who I am. And part of part of what makes it so great that there are guys out there willing to explore their submissive side and not be this just stereotypical. This is what a quote unquote man is supposed to be, is, my side of the dominance looks a lot less silly, because they actually exist, like imagine how silly it would be for me to go around being like, and now you get to massage my feet. And now you know, it's like, they they're that other side of the coin that like for some reason? And who knows why for me, I never even tried to really examine why we get turned on I more like harness that and like look good. There's like a little you know, a jewel, a treasure to pick up like, Oh, great. But it's, it's like we make each other less unusual by the mere fact that the other exists, if that makes sense. Yeah, it'd be delivered

Nick VinZant 18:06

straight. If you're hypnotizing yourself, and then like telling yourself what to do. Sex is generally best done. And I don't not that you have sex with people. But you know what I mean? Like, it's generally best done with another person, whoever that person

Glitter Goddess 18:20

is. Yeah. Yeah. So how, like,

Nick VinZant 18:23

for a typical session, or session, the right word? I don't know. Yes. Okay. For like a typical session, like how, what do you do? What do they do? Like how does can you walk me through like the process? Like how does it go?

Glitter Goddess 18:37

I think the session just begins sometimes we'll chit chat about life sometimes, you know, something will come up and we just end up talking about really whatever whatever's there. It's just it's so different from call to call. And that's part of also what makes it such a joy to to explore some people are already completely turned on by the time I get them on the phone. So at that point, there's no chit chat about strangely, I've ever been interested, like straight to like, wow, this is the good stuff. Okay. But But again, even getting to know each other and having those kinds of conversations that's that's just a different kinds of good stuff. That doesn't sound like a cop out thing. It's just I have a lot of varied interests. Sometimes we'll end up talking about like, you know, specific kinds of music and like these different nuance, like nuances of music that we have in common that we really like and, you know, I think it's just like meeting a friend. It's just a different way to connect. Yeah, then then we might be used to

Nick VinZant 19:35

then like, how does it go once you kind of get to the getting,

Glitter Goddess 19:39

that's part of what the hypnosis helps with. So it's like, okay, we might have been chatting for a while and getting to know each other, and then that's where maybe my dominant side will come out more. I'll say something like, you know, it's okay, so now I'd actually like to hypnotize you. Are you ready to relax for me? So then we'll find a place to lay down, get comfortable, have hands free for you. Have more fun occasions than just holding a phone. And and then we'll get started. And that's where I just completely relinquish the person I'm talking with from any need to say anything, do anything, their job is to just purely relax and listen to My voice and just to allow the experience to happen to unfold.

Nick VinZant 20:21

Will you tell them to do certain things? Things?

Glitter Goddess 20:25

Yes, sometimes Yeah, they're there moments, for example, where I can tell somebody is getting really close to orgasm. And I would like them to take their hand away so that the pleasure can be prolonged. One of the things I really enjoy doing is actually guiding what they're doing and how they're touching. And part of that could be to actually extend the, the the Yeah, the pleasure. And it's edging is what it's called, basically, it's just edging that pleasure along so that it just can last longer.

Nick VinZant 21:00

Oh, so edging is kind of just like, stay where you are and let it build. Yeah.

Glitter Goddess 21:07

So edging would be like getting getting really close to to orgasm, and then taking your hand away, letting the pleasure subside for a few moments and then letting it build back up. And there are times where someone might do this for, you know, hours, even usually before maybe talking with me, or I'm there with some of it. Or maybe it's even just 15 minutes. So it can it can really vary.

Nick VinZant 21:32

This is this, this is an indication of the stage of my life where I'm at or like hours, he's got that kind of time. Listen, we got five minutes here.

Glitter Goddess 21:44

Totally. And that is part of why I have like a lot of different kinds of videos, because I do get calls sometimes, like from guys, or even I'll get a message that they had a lunch break. And they went from work. And they went and watched one of my videos and had some fun and then got to go back to work.

Nick VinZant 22:03

It means ability to basically take any free time to essentially masturbate is amazing to me, right? Like if a guy really needs a free time he is what are you gonna do with it? There's only one thing I'm gonna do.

Glitter Goddess 22:20

Totally. And I over and over too, which makes me feel so good is like that somebody feels like a teenager again, that they haven't had that kind of drive or pleasure in such a long, long, long time that they're like in teenager level again. And I'd like to me that success. I'm just so happy that somebody could just lose control over their horniness. So dynamically.

Nick VinZant 22:43

I remember those days. God that was just, it was an equal combination of excitement and awful at the same time, we're like, how can this thing be steering every decision that I'm possibly making? I'm assuming that most of your clients that are men is Dino have like a percentage? Are we talking like 80%? Or like 99%?

Glitter Goddess 23:04

We were at 100 We're gonna have

Nick VinZant 23:08

there's no women that kind of sneak in there at all? No. Is that just for you, though? Or is that pretty much like across the board? Every woman who does this in the industry? It's all men. There's not no one's ever even heard of a woman being interested in this?

Glitter Goddess 23:27

Well, I haven't. I haven't talked to tons of people who are in a similar line of work, then as me so I can't speak for anybody else. But what I will say is that I've played a little bit more with that in my, in my private life or more one on one, like it's not something I'm opposed to. But as far as people who reach out to me and ask for sessions. It's all guys. Now I do get women reaching out to me asking for sessions on how to create a business similar to mine, but totally different conversations come up from that. So I think it's just kind of one of those things where guys were looking for me,

Nick VinZant 24:07

is there something about it, though, that only like appeals to men, like women would just not be interested in this?

Glitter Goddess 24:13

It's a really good question. I know that there are a lot of submissive women out there. And maybe it's it's I'm just not that creature that they desire to surrender to. But also I think if we look at who's out there, spending money on sexual experiences online, I think we've got in general more more guys.

Nick VinZant 24:41

Okay. Is this is this the full time living?

Glitter Goddess 24:43

So I am somebody who likes to have a lot of things going on in my life at the same time. So I have other vanilla jobs that I do. Vanilla jobs, but the but yes, I mean, yeah, I've been doing this for years and years and it's definitely definitely have sustainable as a as a full time living.

Nick VinZant 25:01

Like how lucrative of a business is this?

Glitter Goddess 25:05

It can be. It can be huge, it can be as big as you want it to be the first month that I joined night flirt. That's the first platform that I was ever on. And I'm still on it because I love it so much. The first month that I was on night flirt, I kept my call line on day and night, I was so thrilled that this was even a thing and that I could express my dominance and that I could play with people. I guess I'd wake up at, like 3am someone would call and I'd be like, what, what are we going to talk about? What are you going to do? And I was I made myself available. And then you know, I started climbing and ranks I ended up being first on the page, so people could find me even easier. And $12,000 is what I made in the very first month of doing it, you made $12,000 first go at it and and I had my call rate so low at that time, too. I spent a lot of time on the phone and I met a lot of people. And some of those people I'm still connected with today. I'm not on like I was that very first month, but then there are other things that that you do like that was before I had even one video for sale. That was 100% calls only. And now I've got clips in I want clips, you know, clips for sale and, and loyal fans, which is the new one that I just started playing with,

Nick VinZant 26:25

man. What do one that is being killed in it to people's sexuality. And as my personal opinion is, as long as you're not hurting anybody against their will who gives shit?

Glitter Goddess 26:39

Exactly. So I mean, I had somebody who call years ago now maybe six years ago, who said, you know, I've wanted to put on a pair of pantyhose for so long. He said maybe it's been 35 years, I don't even know. I've never done it. And and I was like let's set up a time. Let's do it. Like we'll just chat today. And then you know, later this week, let's set up a time and I'll just be there with you. And you can put your pantyhose on. And let's try it. And we did. And it and the part that I see is such a sadness is when we, when we don't allow ourselves to try something out. Especially you know, the main thing is, like you said, if it's not hurting anybody else, but part of it is we think when we're either married or in a partnership with somebody, that it'll hurt them if we explore what our kinks are. And that's where things get a little bit interesting to negotiate with relationships. Because a lot, so many people do have a committed relationship yet. The things that turn them on aren't necessarily the things that their partner would understand or get about them. So it can become pretty complex,

Nick VinZant 27:43

right? Like you never know, you might be listening to this at home thinking God all this stuff is so weird. And then you could just love it. If you just you never note, have you ever had somebody being like that knew this would that was not for me. Like wanted to try it and then was just like, Oh, I do not like spicy chicken wings. Right? Like that kind of thing? Yeah.

Glitter Goddess 28:05

Like I've tried buffalo sauce. And I'm like, I don't get it. I can't get into buffalo sauce. I think the closest that I've had to something like that, that they've been at least, you know, yeah, that someone shared with me is that I've found that people who are really, really, really intellectual and I'd say live kind of from their head, like really just can't let their bodies be in charge is it's really challenging to take somebody into a trance when they're really mental. Like even to get, you know, have an erection or to have your, you know, your body turned on. It's like you kind of have to let your head go. And so I always see it as a huge honor when somebody is willing to relinquish even that control because it can I mean, think about I mean, for me, at least I think about when I get horny, like I'm I'm open to all sorts of suggestions. You know what, like, start thinking about like, what are the sounds fun and oh, yeah, I'd love to try that. Whether I do it in person. Totally different story. But to be able to bounce that off of somebody and play. It's like I can be this one minute something totally different another and, and it's all okay, because it's all just stuff we were talking about.

Nick VinZant 29:20

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I would love that. So I'll edit this part out audience is nice. They're not assholes. They're really not. The questions are a little bit quirky, but they come from like a good place and sometimes they just don't know how to ask them necessarily. Um, totally. Are there other fetishes within erotic hypnosis? Like are there different levels like I don't even know what to give an example.

Glitter Goddess 29:45

So when would be like adding some J li which stands for jerk off instruction. So I would often add elements of guiding how a person would touch themselves which is really fun because it can it basically tastes takes masturbation to a slightly different place. Because it's you physically doing it. But me guiding what happens? And so I'd say it like the physical sensations are different, like, better than even just switching hands.

Nick VinZant 30:15

switching hands. It's not even possible.

Glitter Goddess 30:18

Have you ever haven't tried that? God? You know what, I don't know if I'll try their left hand because it feels like somebody else.

Nick VinZant 30:24

Well, I'm left handed. So then I, I don't know if I ever have

Glitter Goddess 30:29

it'll feel like somebody else if you do. But basically, it's like, if I'm guiding things, it'll it'll just be a different flow, a different rhythm a different thing that you get to experience all night. I mean, by the Royal you like everybody,

Nick VinZant 30:44

right? You may be seeing my face right now. Or I'm so wondering, like, have I ever? Have I ever done that? It's been there the whole time. Like, why have a die? I've had this thing. This is the role that I play in many popular now, right? Like, have you ever thought about using the other hand. And this is where men's brains are right? Like once it gets going. There's no blood up top.

Glitter Goddess 31:11

Totally. That's what I talk I distinguish between the upper brain and the lower brain. And I honestly demand nothing as the upper brain while I'm talking with. Yeah, with my wonderful friends of

Nick VinZant 31:22

mine, I can really see why men like this, because it's just you don't have to do anything.

Glitter Goddess 31:27

Exactly.

Nick VinZant 31:27

It's so relaxing, but is is is goI completely different.

Glitter Goddess 31:32

They're very complementary, they can go together, and they can be completely separate. So I could do a hypnosis session that doesn't involve jerk off and stretch aeoi trick of instruction. But oftentimes, they will add elements of that. And some now I'm starting to do more of edging and more of the goI sessions and videos for the sites without hypnosis, that for the sites that don't like that as much like for example, I'm starting to do a Sunday worship broadcast on loyal fans. I did my first one this past Sunday. So anybody who follows me there on loyal fans, they get to see me leading this sort of, it's very blasphemous, like up to that, like a Sunday worship where it's like, Yep, it's me, Goddess. And so they're watching and, and I'm guiding more of a meditative relaxation session that does involve erotic things. And I would not, I wouldn't say that it goes over the edge into hypnosis. So I think if anything, I'm starting to be a little bit tamer.

Nick VinZant 32:40

I'm glad someone else asked this question so that I can frame it around them asking it and I don't have to ask it. Are you doing things to yourself during the videos? Is that part of it?

Glitter Goddess 32:50

Yes. So I don't have any videos that are fully nude. But I do show things. I like to show off my body. I said, I'm an exhibitionist. And it's really true. Like I like to be seen, and I like to be blessed after. And yeah, my videos are each a little bit different from each other. So there's always something that you get to see, like a different side of me or a different part of my body. Like, there are these Yeah, mental, like the more of like the cognitive, different parts of me, and then different parts of my body as well. Some videos are just purely focused on breast worship. And so that's gets to be the center of attention.

Nick VinZant 33:29

But you're not necessarily simulating sex acts during it.

Glitter Goddess 33:32

I do not simulate sex acts. No, it's really, it's more like kinda like what I mean, it's similar to us kind of talking on the camera right now, because I'll set up a camera, and then I might be a little further back so the viewer can see more of me, but it's just me talking to you. So it really feels like a one on one experience. But phone sessions I mean, it's a totally different dynamic because we're hearing each other and sometimes that can actually be even more intimate sometimes because you hear these like real subtle things in somebody's voice and you don't ever feel like like as a as a let's say a caller to me. You never have to worry what you look like you just lay there you can have your eyes closed open you can be touching yourself not and that's how I do it. I'm either touching myself or not like sometimes even on calls I'm like I'm playing with myself if I'm if I'm in dude, I'm into it. But on video I'm not like a full monty kind of gal.

Nick VinZant 34:32

Have you done in person sessions in the past? Do you continue to do them?

Glitter Goddess 34:36

I used to do in person sessions a whole lot when I first started out as a dominatrix and with erotic hypnosis. I was living in New York City. And it was such a brilliant place to explore and sometimes I would have like three different lawyers coming over different days a week cleaning my apartment. And

Nick VinZant 34:55

oh, it was just as part of amazing. Always cleaning I seen They were

Glitter Goddess 35:01

clean. Yeah, that's that domination kind of side coming through. And it was so funny because it was like there was when we cram like, wow, three different lawyers specifically. And it's not like I even have an overwhelming number of lawyer clientele. But it was just there were just so many there's so much diversity there and people's sexual interests, and a real openness. And then I moved to Houston, which I thought I'll just keep going with all this real time sessions in real time play. And I realized I live in the Bible Belt. So doesn't happen. And I just, I just sort of after trying to kind of get things off the ground here with with the in person sessions and realized how different culturally it is, I realized I'm actually having so much fun connecting with people from all around the world. I don't actually like trying to put my effort into the local part so much when I can have such a vast variety of people that I get to play with, like people from from Italy, for example, I was chatting with someone earlier today from Italy and I'm it's just it's just wonderful to meet people from around the world.

Nick VinZant 36:11

I keep wondering like, did they do a good job? The lawyers when they cleaned your apartment, like was it like, Oh, this is like cleaning service Good.

Glitter Goddess 36:19

Well, with with three different people that week, the apartment was super, super clean. I have had somebody come over. So there's a whole fetish that I get to play with quite a bit, which is cuckolding. And so that desire to be submissive to me, while I might have a lover that I'm playing with that there may be cleaning the house or doing household chores to like, make everything great for me. I had somebody come and do that once while I was playing with a lover upstairs. And he was so bad at windows, I never had him come back again. And sir. He left streaks fucking everywhere. I was like, Okay, I get it. And this was not helpful. Now I have to like, pay somebody to come in. I don't mind paying anybody to clean my house. Like, I feel like that's it's a true gift to have house cleaning and one that I'm happy to pay for. I know don't rely on just indentured or not, that's not the right word. But like, yeah, submissive,

Nick VinZant 37:23

I have never wanted to interview somebody more than that guy. And then like, how did you feel when goddess glitter dumped you as, as as a client, because you didn't do a good job cleaning? Within two

Glitter Goddess 37:36

years, he keeps trying to come back? And I'm just like, No.

Nick VinZant 37:40

So when like, if they do the consulting thing, are they like in there? I know. They're they're doing they're they're doing the task necessarily. But are they in there? Like doing their thing at the same time? Or did they do that at home? Or when did they find their release? I guess,

Glitter Goddess 37:57

totally. So that's something that is super fun to play with hypnosis, because it's almost like transports us to that place where it's going on. So we can set I can set the stage of like, this is what's going on. This is where you are, this is what's happening. And it's, it's like we get to be stars in our own movie or our own play, where we can lay things out. And sometimes it's easier to do that with through hypnosis than it is in real life. Because you know, there are personality things, there's timing, there's when can you not get caught by by a spouse, all these different things. But on the phone, we can like lay this out seamlessly. Like I've literally had it before where I've in New York where I had an apartment that had a loft, and I was upstairs having sex with my lover and the The cook was down there, cleaning and doing things and I went down and got a foot massage from him. And then I told him that it was his job now to then give my lover a foot massage also, which was like he turned, he blushed completely. It was like most mortifying thing, but he knew that was his task. And he he also let me know from the beginning, he was interested in exploring cuckolding this, you know, things he's done this, he'd like to try these things. So it's, it was not out of the blue, but definitely still a stretch for him to explore something like that. And definitely huge turn on.

Nick VinZant 39:26

Is there anything else that you think that I missed? Or anything like, Ooh, this is interesting, we should talk about this.

Glitter Goddess 39:32

So so what I would say is that if if we allow ourselves to explore sexually, into areas that were kind of concerned might be a little bit too much to explore, but we allow ourselves to actually go into that. It's like, I would encourage people to look at what's what's the worst that could happen here because I do remember being a young woman and almost frightened of my own Sexual sexuality or sexual illness before I even went in there, like I knew that it was just going to be this beast somehow before I even had my first orgasm. And I kind of stood at the edge of that ocean for a while. And I ended up doing a really strict meditation path for about five years where I no alcohol, no meat, no eggs, no sex of any kind, nothing. And so part of what I did is I built my whole life around keeping those things as far away from me as possible, so that I wouldn't be consumed by something, whatever that was, I didn't know. And when I started to allow myself to I guess it was kind of like, even trust that if I have an interest in something that it probably wouldn't destroy me. But I'd be worth it. Would it be worth finding out even if it did, that's when I started to really find what pleasure was for me because I had tried other things that were seemed like they were supposed to be satisfying for other people, and I just couldn't relate to it. And so if anybody is out there feeling like what they would be interested or might be interested in would be just too weird. That's totally okay. Like, there is actually no such thing as being normal sexually. There's not one person that doesn't have some outlying interest or proclivity or even curiosity. And maybe, maybe it's okay to at least at least explore it even during a time when you're by yourself and masturbating. And I guess that's a little bit where I get on the soapbox. Like, I'd like people to just know that it's okay. And that what turns you on doesn't define you as a person. And it's there for 10 seconds, it could be gone. Next month, it could be gone right after you orgasm. It could be there years later, but it doesn't define you. And it can change at any time. So why not? Why not have fun? Why not find out what what pleasure is possible instead of like building up the walls because I've done the whole wall thing too.

Nick VinZant 42:12

That's good advice. Good for you. Right? Like just find out, right? You might not think you like roller coasters, but hop on one and who knows?

Glitter Goddess 42:21

Yeah, just give yourself permission that like pleasure pleasures. Okay.

Solo Sailor Sailor James

Sailor James is on an adventure filled with beauty and danger. He’s currently sailing around the world all by himself. We talk solo sailing, remote islands, being stranded at sea, pirates and the best sea shanties. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Vehicles.

Sailor James: 01:37ish

Pointless: 33:10ish

Top 5: 45:06ish

http://youtube.com/sailorjames (Sailor James YouTube)

https://www.instagram.com/james.the.sailor.man (Sailor James Instagram)

https://www.svtriteia.com (Sailor James Website)

Dakota Lithium : https://dakotalithium.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Renogy Solar : https://www.renogy.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Rolly Tasker Sails : https://www.rollytasker.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Interview with Solo Sailor Sailor James

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode solo sailing, and fictional vehicles

Sailor James 0:20

during that trip is what changed my life forever. It was like time travel. And that was it. For me. That was it. I was like this, I have to figure out how to make this my life. What happens is it's like living in a snare drum for day in and day out. And it's so loud and intense. I think the most, the longest period I slept in 32 days was two hours. When you start sailing, you get a full bag of luck, and you get an empty bag of experience. And you're you're like your job is to fill up the experience bag before your luck bag runs out.

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is on an adventure filled with beauty and danger. He's sailing around the world all by himself on a boat built in the 1960s. It's an adventure that's filled with sleepless nights, remote islands, being stranded at sea pirates, and sea shanties. This is solo sailor, Sailor James, when did you really fall in love with sailing, when did this kind of become something that you wanted to do?

Sailor James 1:42

It really, really started, I was pursuing a career as a like a fine artist for about a decade. And there are these things called artists and residencies, where you as an artist, you will, you're invited to go to a place and you go there for a month or up to three months, you make a body of work, you have an exhibition at the end. So these happen all over the world. I done one in St. Petersburg, Russia in January of 2014 on the island of cron stop, and I had made a body of work and based on maritime history, because the island had a rich maritime history. So I was receiving a lot of maritime history. And then I applied for another residency and got accepted in northern Scotland on a sailboat and I made a drawing machine that this wheeled platter moved beneath the fixed pin and made drawings based on the sailboats movement as see. And so we were sailing all throughout the the northern isles of Scotland, the Orkney Islands, and I was making these abstract drawings from Island island. But during that trip is what changed my life forever. Sailing between all of these different islands in the Orkney Islands and visiting Neolithic sites and going to all these unbelievable sites spinning i Under anchor on this like sailing vessel, learning how to sail and understanding what cruising is where you just travel by by the wind and by the elements. And then the moment that I always say was like the sort of moment that changed the trajectory of my life as we were sailing into Stromness on the Orkney mainland, in very, very thick fog, and I watched this ancient Seaport Village emerge from the fog, as we approached, and heard the anchor chain rattle down as the hook set on the seabed floor and held us in place. And it was, it was like time travel. And that was it. For me. That was it. I was like this, I have to figure out how to make this my life. And when I returned to Los Angeles that I set that in motion, I was like, Okay, this has to be what I do. I have to see the world and magical places. undersell

Nick VinZant 3:54

is it more about the act of like sailing in and of itself, or is the destination the goal,

Sailor James 3:59

there's like two sides of the same coin. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think it's beautiful and magical. The idea that, like, I sailed here to Hawaii, from Los Angeles, 2300 miles just by the wind without the motor running. Like I travel like a leaf on a pond. The fact that the elements can just if you know how to point the sails, and you know how to point your boat and you know how to navigate, you can reach any land on the planet. And so then, somewhere I read and who knows if it's true, but I read somewhere that 80% of the country's can be reached by water. And I was like, that's like a fascinating option to be able to travel slowly and using the elements and reach all of these like foreign places and new cultures and see beautiful things

Nick VinZant 4:52

now is the goal is still to kind of what is the word circumnavigate the globe?

Sailor James 4:57

That's the Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 4:59

Now how long would it take you if you were just like to do it non stop? Like, how long would it take you to circumnavigate the globe?

Sailor James 5:06

I think nowadays or depends on my boat. My boat is a 1965 sailboat. So she's older and not as fast. So it would take about a year,

Nick VinZant 5:15

is that faster? Is that slow? I'm not entirely sure which one that is.

Sailor James 5:18

today's standards, it's very slow. Like, because nowadays boats are like, made differently. They're much faster. But they're also far less comfortable. So there's a trade off. But um, yet, in today's today's world, some of the boats are absurdly fast and my vote is very slow and very safe.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Is that when you look at different boats, though, is there always a trade off between the safety and the speed? Like, cool, that's going to be fast, but

Sailor James 5:48

for sure, yeah, for sure. So and it's not necessarily the safety and the speed. Maybe it's the comfort level, and the speed, but I that can play into it. Because if you're not comfortable, if you're in a boat, that's not necessarily that's more designed for coastal cruising, where they're like, flat bottomed, and they're fast, and you can move quickly between places on the coast, and they're very wide and roomy, like an apartment, where those are not comfortable in big seas. And what happens is, it's like living in a snare drum for day in and day out. And it's so loud and intense. And while the boat didn't risk, like breaking, breaking up, it was perfectly sound boat. But the experience fatigues you in such a way that it can put you in a dangerous situation. And even more so a solo sailing, fatigue is a very dangerous aspect. Because then you can mess up and mess up at sea, especially if you're alone could mean your death. So

Nick VinZant 6:43

So like for solo sailing, how do you go about doing that right? Like do you have to just be alert 24 hours a day, the entire time that you're going there's a

Sailor James 6:55

thing called AI S, which is a system that all major ships have to have broadcast AI s. So there's this a s receiver, you can buy a transponder, a receiver, but the transponders are very expensive, which would send out your data. But the as receiver tells you, when a ship is near you, it tells you which direction they're going and how fast they're going. So you can set up alarms were like, Okay, if a ship gets in 10 miles of me, I need the alarm to go off. And then you can get up and kind of figure out where the ship is and figure out if they're gonna, if you guys are going to cross paths. So that lends itself to help a lot. But generally, on my passage, the way I do it, when I'm when I'm at sea, and I'm not coastal cruising is I would start my night shift around 9pm. And I would send alarm for the top of the hour for every hour. And I would lay down hopefully sleep through the hour, and then my alarm goes off, I would get up, go on deck look for ships slowly scan the horizon, check the sails, check the course make sure I'm still going the right direction, and carry on my way. And there's a thing called a wind vane self steering system, which is all mechanical doesn't take any electronics. And it um, you basically you set your course and you activate this wind vane, and it steers the boat for you. So it removes you from having to hand steer the boat. So that allows you to like live, you know, because the otherwise you would just have to put the boat that's called heave to which basically like stall the boat and sleep for hours if you know and then go back to sailing. So with a wind vane steering system, it allows you to just go kind of constantly, but you wouldn't

Nick VinZant 8:31

ever want to like just sleep for eight hours straight with the boat going, like Alright, well I pointed at East,

Sailor James 8:38

it's not a good idea. Because usually the sea conditions change the wind conditions change. And so your winds or your sails might you know, back when you start pointing in the wrong direction. You know, it's like you're sailing eight hours in the wrong direction is not going to help your final cause. So I think the most the longest period I slept in 32 days was two

Nick VinZant 9:02

hours. What does that do to your body?

Sailor James 9:05

Um, I lost 20 pounds. Also the conditions at sea it's really hard to cook so you kind of eat pretty, pretty simply. And then yeah, you get into a rhythm with it because it's not just nighttime so like, I don't drink any caffeine when I'm at sea like I don't have coffee. I love coffee on land and when I'm like you know just nearshore but I don't drink any caffeine when I'm at sea so that in the middle of the day if I can lay down then I can sleep you know so you just kind of grab rest wherever you are. And yeah, it's it's almost like you go on by standby mode anytime you can just to kind of conserve energy and, and stay alert.

Nick VinZant 9:44

My one experience with kind of the open ocean is on a giant cruise ship and I just felt like oh my gosh, I got to get off this thing. Like I felt trapped, even on a huge one. Like do you ever feel like that?

Sailor James 9:57

Not at all, especially being a little Um, you know, 1000 miles from land in any direction, it was like the most piece I'd ever experienced in my life. I think it's just different people wired different ways.

Nick VinZant 10:10

You know, that's true. I was like the word like, Have you been somebody that always kind of gravitated more towards that kind of solo experience towards being alone,

Sailor James 10:21

the way I like to say it, about specifically about ocean crossings, and I've done both I've done solo and I've done crude ocean crossings is that I'm pretty comfortable being uncomfortable. And it's, it would be much harder for me to be on a boat with someone who was miserable. So like, you know, I'm not that miserable. It's like, yeah, there's things that you know, that are ideal, or maybe they're not, you know, they're not 100% comfortable, like you would think of in everyday life. But that's like, the adventure tax, you know, so it's like, to get to see these things that no one gets to see, sometimes you got to you got to pay that tax.

Nick VinZant 11:01

So for somebody who's like, never been out on the open ocean, what's what's it like, compared to like, how is the open ocean different from being near shore?

Sailor James 11:10

Well, for one thing, you can be rescued near shore, um, that like, you know, in the middle of the ocean, there is no rescue or, or if you're lucky, you might get rescued by a cargo ship, but then your vessel or your home, your boat has to be sunk, so that it's not a danger to other boats navigating in the same waters. So that thought, you know, it's not like a helicopter can just come pick you up when you're 1000 miles from shore. So that is wildly different. But on the flip side of that is there's nothing more dangerous to a boat than the shore. So when, like, when I'm navigating close to shore, if I'm doing overnight passages like non stop overnight passages, I'll sleep in the cockpit outside with my alarm set for every 15 minutes, because that's about 20 minutes is about the time a ship will reach you from the horizon if it's traveling at full speed. So about every 15 minutes, you pop up, look around for ships and then lay back down. And even with a is because a lot of small fishing boats don't have that. And if somebody is on that boat, not on watch, they're on autopilot, they can easily run you down. So and So boats do not move very fast, you know, because it is right around the base of like walking swiftly or walking slowly, depending on the wind.

Nick VinZant 12:29

But I mean, that's it, that's as fast as you're going, you'll go in like three or four miles an hour. Oh, yeah. Even if the winds like whipping, you're still like poking around holes.

Sailor James 12:40

A hole speed on my boat, I think is like seven knots, which is like, you know, it's not one for one for like miles per hour. But um, it's not very fast. Yeah. And it's like, that's, yeah, I didn't have mentioned that. I said, you know, like, my passage here from Los Angeles would have been the equivalent to me driving from Los Angeles to Pittsburgh at three miles an hour. Basically.

Nick VinZant 13:03

I thought you were going a lot faster than that. I assumed that like, all right, you get on the open ocean, they're probably doing like 30 or 40. Doing like five

Sailor James 13:12

giant cargo ships, they max out at 30 knots.

Nick VinZant 13:16

Why did I think everything was so much faster.

Sailor James 13:19

But like fancy race boats, like for the America's Cup, they have these boats, these sailboats that look like spaceships almost those things will go like 40 knots, or you know, those those things are totally bananas, but they don't go long distances really at that speed. You know,

Nick VinZant 13:33

I have never understood why it's knots and not just miles per hour.

Sailor James 13:37

Back in the age of sail. The way they would determine the speed of the ship is they had a log that was tied to a rope. And the rope had at specific links had knots tied in it. And they would turn an hourglass over, throw the login and then count how many knots went through their hand until the hourglass ran out. And then they would write down. How many knots in the log book

Nick VinZant 14:05

that makes perfect sense. You know, for like the water conditions out on the open ocean. Is it smoother? Is it wavy? Or is that the right word? Like what's it like?

Sailor James 14:16

Well, depends on almost everything depends on the wind. So the swells generally if there's no wind, they're very long rollers. So the the swells are long. And you know, like long swells are not dangerous. I've sailed in, you know, 20 foot seas in the North Atlantic, but they were long periods and they said they're not breaking waves, so they're not scary. They're intense to see 20 feet hill of water behind you and then suddenly you're on top of it. And then the captain who taught me to sail in Scotland cilia boo, she told me about she sailed to Antarctica and Cape Horn all the stuff she sailed to South Georgia on a boat as crew and she saw 60 foot waves in the southern ocean, where there were 65 Foot, mountain and mountain 60 foot tall mountains of water. And then they were on top of 60 foot mountain of water looking down into the trough 60 feet. So if they're long period and they're breaking, then they're not dangerous. But here in the Pacific, the it's um, it's a very calm ocean primarily other than like if you're in a hurricane track, or if you're in the North Pacific, and if basically it's like it, any ocean in the correct season is fine. If you're out of there, if you're sailing in waters in the wrong season, it's not fine, but the Pacific is very mild compared to the Atlantic. And that's because the Atlantic is, especially specifically like the Caribbean stuff is so the water so shallow, that it supercharges the storms, and that's where all the hurricanes happen there. But there we don't have like hurricanes in Los Angeles.

Nick VinZant 15:46

So when you look kind of forward, and like the in the goal of what's the word, circumnavigating? Like? Is there a spot where you're like, Oh, I'm not ready for this place yet. Or this is gonna be this is gonna be the test.

Sailor James 16:03

Yeah, Cape Horn, the my eventual goal I planned around Cape Horn, which is the most dangerous place in the world. And it's killed 1000s and 1000s of sailors over the years, eventually, all around Cape Horn, and it just depends. And that's the place where you just have to have all your ducks in a row and, and a number of small boats have done it. And again, it's like, waiting out weather windows, you know, and not, you know, that's a lot of it is like, waiting for weather. But with today's technology, it's easier to know what weather it's going to be. So it's easier to sort of like know what you're getting yourself into. But yeah, that Cape Horn will be the spot. That's like, and the Indian Ocean too, but crossing the Indian Ocean from Southeast Asia to Africa will be a challenge. But again, it's a matter of like going in the right season.

Nick VinZant 16:54

Why is that? Such a what makes that place such a rough, rough area?

Sailor James 17:00

Yeah, I don't I don't know probably. I'm not specifically educated on that fact. Or that reason. But I would guess it's in relation to to like Africa and the landmasses around there that just creates, you know, like the storms that are pretty gnarly, the Indian Oceans pretty gnarly. So, yeah, I would just imagine its weather systems that are in relation to the Southern Ocean on one side and Africa, the African continent on the other side. So

Nick VinZant 17:29

when you go for, you know, when you go for a leg of the journey, like how much preparation goes into it, like, how long will you spend, like stocking up or preparing or reading maps or whatever,

Sailor James 17:41

I'm always researching even further ahead. So kind of always, you do quite a bit. And because you kind of got to especially places that are kind of far flung like I'll be going to a lot of uninhabited atolls in the South Pacific. So I'm researching a lot of that, and there's a lot of techniques that goes into visiting those places that you wouldn't necessarily apply anywhere else. So really digging deep and learning from all the people that have gone there before. And with the internet, I'm able to find tons of blogs or, you know, cruising guides or whatever that that tells you things to they need to think about, you know, what's there, what isn't there. And, you know, even like anchoring, and you know, around coral is a different, you anchor around coral in a different way than you would anchor on just like a sandy beach. And even down to you have to really be cautious about collecting rainwater. So you have make sure you have enough water because there's no fresh water, a lot of these add holes and stuff. So yeah, I don't know, I think I think the preparation never stops. But as far as provisioning goes, that's kind of one big bulk thing. You just kind of a provision for kind of double what you think it might be and go from there.

Nick VinZant 18:59

Like how much generally provisions will you carry, like I carry this many days supply of it.

Sailor James 19:05

So my trip from Los Angeles to Hawaii, I thought should have been around 20 to 25 days and ended up being 32. But I had provisioned for 40 days, and had way like way more water than I needed. So I was I was well stocked.

Nick VinZant 19:21

How guess how good at sailing? Do you need to be able to be to go on like a open ocean journey. Right? So let's say 10 Is Black Beard level. I'm the greatest sailor ever and one is like I know how to swim. Like where on a scale of one to 10 Would you say alright, you need to be about here before you even try something like this.

Sailor James 19:42

Well need. It's like should I know it's like people People often ask me like what kind of boat do I need to do this? I'm like, Well, you you can go over Niagara Falls in a barrel. Like is it a good idea? Not necessarily. You know, like the KonTiki was a raft that they drifted from South America to French Polynesia. So like, I just sell to Kawhi with a gentleman named Jeff. And he told me, he had sailed a lot on little lakes on small boats in New York, and then had a dream of sailing, bought like a 37 foot boat had never even slept on a boat, especially in the heat, he on a boat that size, he'd never spent the night on a boat before he got on it and tried to sell the Hawaii. And he successfully did it. But he said he was like, scared to death. And you know, he had some problems, but you know, he worked it out and got it done. So one person, someone told me once that when you start sailing, you get a full bag of luck. And you get an empty bag of experience. And you're, you're like, your job is to fill up the experience bag before your luck bag runs out, you know, people might be able to pull it off in there. At the right time of year in specific oceans, especially trade when sailing is fairly simple, like sailing to Hawaii, you're downwind and down seas. So someone with less experience, that's an easier thing. But you also have a lot of distance to get things wrong and have no way out. Like downwind trade wind sailing is the easiest. And then, you know, upwind sailing is for sure the hardest, I don't. Because basically, you have to think about the ocean currents and the winds. They all move in specific ways around the world like Northern Hemisphere runs one way southern hemisphere runs another way. So you basically plan that with it to to have the most success.

Nick VinZant 21:37

I don't even know how you sail against the wind. I have no idea.

Sailor James 21:41

Yeah, it's well, like modern sailboats that have the sails flat like like sloops or Bermudan sloop. Once they figured that out, it acts like the wing of an airplane. So it uses lift. So that basically like the wind on one side of the sail creates a high pressure system and the wind on the other side of the sail creates a low pressure system, and they want to meet so it's almost like squeezing a watermelon seeds to your fingers. It like pushes it forward.

Nick VinZant 22:10

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is your most memorable experience sailing?

Sailor James 22:18

Probably? Well, for me, it's probably when I lost my rudder and all steerage 1000 miles from Hawaii. I think that one's gonna stick with me for a while. And being adrift in the ocean for three days. That's fairly memorable to me.

Nick VinZant 22:33

So what like obviously you survive this, but how? That seems like a problem.

Sailor James 22:39

Very, very big problem. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 22:41

How did you lose?

Sailor James 22:44

Um, I struggled to submerge object of what I do not know. When I got when I finally got in, and dove on the boat, there was a big red mark on the rudder and a chip out of the back. So it may have been a has a submerged sea container. That's like a known problem. A lot of race boats have hit on and different cruising boats have hit them. Like, I know, I looked up the stats after it happened. And in 2020 alone, 3000 sea containers were lost overboard. And if you think if they're carrying a shipment of foam, they'll float just below the surface. You know, if they're carrying a Boolean object, then they can just float right below the surface. And there was a famous movie, all is lost. And it wasn't Robert Redford, I think, based on that exact thing of him hitting a C container. So that's my best guess. But I didn't hear it happen. I didn't see it happen. So I'm not sure.

Nick VinZant 23:37

How did you then how did you get out of this situation somebody just find you ARE YOU JUST

Sailor James 23:41

NO I, I sailed by drugs. So there's a thing that you can get these things called drugs or see anchors. And basically, they're their purpose, their purpose made for you drive, you trail it behind your boat on a long line. on boats, ropes are called lines. So it's on a long line behind your boat. And it's made to slow your ascent down giant waves. So if you're in a really bad seas, and you're going too fast on waves, and you you could flip this way like pitch pole, this slows your your your speed down, you Dragon, this drug and mine look like a traffic cone, it had holes in it and it creates drag to slow you. So I deployed that and rigged up a pole across the back so that I could move it from one side of the boat to the other to steer the boat. And the easiest way to understand how it works is when you're in a canoe and you're paddling, if you hold your paddle down and hold it flat, it'll turn you this way, return you that way. So that's exactly how this drug worked is like I would move the resistance from one side of the boat which would drag the boat this way and then the other side of the boat would drag it this way.

Nick VinZant 24:50

Now was that was that a technique that you knew ahead of time or did you like well, I got to figure this out somehow.

Sailor James 24:55

I did not know ahead of time at all I had drove on board I had all the gear on board for other reasons. And then I was communicating with my shore team via satellite phone and trying to figure out what my options were. And two of the members of my shore team were captains and they were both sending me information about ways to try to set my drug up to steer the boat and yeah, that's what I ended I ended up doing for 1000 miles for 18 days was no steering I sailed with zero steering um, yeah,

Nick VinZant 25:30

this might that experience might have been in this might be something else but your scariest experience while out there.

Sailor James 25:39

I'm scary it maybe I want to say this, the scariest where I actually felt terror was one night on that same passage, when I was still my rudder was still fine. I came out in the middle of the night and it was in very thick fog. And there was a shadow from my navigation lights. Projecting, like the shadow on the fall the wall of the fog directly behind me and it looked like there was a boat within 20 feet of me. And I, I it was very alarming. I really, really I shit myself. And I was like, Oh my gosh, and and then I sat there for a minute and then realized it was like my own shadow. So I was scared of my own shadow. That was literally as like if I'm going to say the most terrifying. Maybe not the most concerning but the most like actual writer that yeah, for

Nick VinZant 26:39

sure. I like that split second of like, I'm dead. I'm dead.

Sailor James 26:43

I was. Yeah, just terror. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 26:45

Coolest animal you've seen.

Sailor James 26:47

I encountered like four finback whales off the coast of California. And that was pretty amazing. Because they're such big creatures. And I've had a lot of encounters with whales over the years and you know, stampedes of 1000s of dolphins. As far as the horizon could see, I've seen 1000s of dolphins. But seeing these fin backs, I've never seen fin backs before. And they were just it was like very calm seas and they were just just breaching very slowly or not breaching, but you know, servicing very slowly and it was just, it was quite a scene.

Nick VinZant 27:22

What is your favorite sailing related movie?

Sailor James 27:25

Now? Now? Does that mean Movie or Documentary?

Nick VinZant 27:28

I feel like it's got to be movie documentary. I feel like it's cheating a little. Yeah, too easy, too easy. Or the one that sailors would be like, yeah, they got it right.

Sailor James 27:39

Oh, there's no sailing movies that sailors would say they got it right. Other than maybe Captain Ron, that's probably the closest to getting it right.

Nick VinZant 27:46

This kind of leads us into our next question. Honestly, are you prepared for pirates?

Sailor James 27:51

There are only pirates in very, very, very few places in the world near the entrance of the Suez Canal here Somalia is obviously of great concern, but they're actually more interested in while they used to be more interested in capturing cargo ships where they could get millions of dollars for the ransom. The other place where there's like piracy is a concern is in the Malay sea near Malaysia. But that's mostly you just don't sail at night. So like if you buddy boat or you just don't travel at night, you know, mostly it's like local bandits. You know, it's like people who are, you know, trying to find food for their families and stuff. So it's like people are very scared of imaginary boogeyman and piracy is not a great issue at sea.

Nick VinZant 28:43

Not not something that you're staying up at night for necessarily, whatever favorite piece of sailing lingo piece of sailing

Sailor James 28:50

lingo.

Nick VinZant 28:52

I gravitate towards the poop deck I feel like

Sailor James 28:55

most people there's that Yeah. Yeah. I don't know batten down the hatches as always, you know an easy go to have you

Nick VinZant 29:04

ever said something like that in real life though but you've been like batten down the hatches

Sailor James 29:09

here's here's the one here's here it is I got it. My favorite sailing lingo is most certainly land Whoa. And I have for sure always said it when I first started land for sure.

Nick VinZant 29:22

I'm favorite sea shanty? Do you could you have any good sea Santi recommendations?

Sailor James 29:28

Hollaway Oh, Joe is my favorite Sea Shanty.

Nick VinZant 29:31

I don't know what how does that one. Do you remember how that one goes?

Sailor James 29:35

All the way all the way age or?

Nick VinZant 29:38

It's pretty good. There seem to be making a big, big comeback all of a sudden.

Sailor James 29:42

Yeah, yeah. The social media really blew him up recently and a lot of great renditions of him like beautifully song.

Nick VinZant 29:48

Can you make a full time living off of this?

Unknown Speaker 29:51

Absolutely.

Nick VinZant 29:53

Does but do you make a good amount of money or do you just have to like live cheaply,

Sailor James 29:58

you definitely have to live within a Budget. Like my now my full time job is YouTube. So, yeah, it's possible, but it's not necessarily stable. So like as a fallback, I'm a licensed unlicensed, I've hold a Master's license with the US Coast Guard. And that's primarily so I can do yacht deliveries of like, you know, larger yacht deliveries and make a large amount of money, and then use that to kind of cruise on until my funds get low. And then I can do other do more deliveries, or drive dive boats in different destinations. So I've set myself up different sort of employment options for around the world. So I know how to fix everything on a boat of my boat, is totally refit by myself. And I know how to do all that stuff. So I set myself up to be able to work as I travel. But again, you have to live pretty, pretty simply. And be happy with that. Otherwise, it's much harder. But currently, yeah, making YouTube videos and sharing them weekly pays for all my expenses. And it'll get easier as I leave here, because Hawaii is very expensive. Good for you, man. And writing. Like I've published a few books and then moving into like writing articles for magazines and stuff for sailing. And so yeah, it's like that's the the writing is the long game. And then YouTube. There's a lot of people that have made an amazing living off of YouTube. And I'm just like, you know, I don't count my chickens before they hatch, but I'm happy each month when I'm like, okay, cool. Well, this is working out.

Nick VinZant 31:38

So now I'm really curious though, like, how much if you take if you take a boat from or a yacht from, like, la to Honolulu? Like how much? How much does that cost? Like, how much do you get paid for that?

Sailor James 31:49

Well, well, Oh, you mean for a yacht delivery?

Nick VinZant 31:53

Yeah, like how much? Oh, yeah.

Sailor James 31:55

I mean, you can make 20 grand on a big delivery? Well, I guess it takes you that long, right? It depends on Yeah, depends on the distance. It depends. Like, I make like as a delivery captain, I make about $500 a day as a delivery Captain plus all my provisions plus airfare to and from. But the thing is, is like it's not like you can count on a delivery a month, you know? Yeah. So that's the other thing if you get if you get locked in with a, like a broker, specifically on the East Coast, it'd be a good spot. If you if you started working with a broker and you're running boats up and down the East Coast, you can make a regular living as a delivery captain.

Nick VinZant 32:36

That's pretty much all the questions I got for you, man. Is there anything else that's like you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Sailor James 32:44

Yeah, I'm just getting getting the boat dialed in wintering here in Hawaii, and exploring the Hawaiian Islands and getting ready for French Polynesia.

Plastic Surgeon Dr. Gal Aharonov

As a plastic surgeon working in Beverly Hills, Dr. Gal Aharanov has seen it all. And he says there’s a growing dark side to his industry’s focus on beauty. We talk plastic surgery procedures, celebrity transformations, plastic surgery horror stories, what to look for in a good plastic surgeon and how he became famous for making dimples. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Easy Things That Are Hard To Do.

Dr. Gal Aharonov: 02:22ish

Pointless: 40:35ish

Top 5: 55:26ish

https://draharonov.com/ (Dr. Gal Aharonov Website)

https://www.instagram.com/drgalmd (Dr. Gal Aharonov Instagram)

Topics we discuss:

How different plastic surgery procedures are performed.

How much different plastic surgeries cost.

How to find a good plastic surgeon.

How to spot a bad plastic surgeon.

How to know if a plastic surgeon is right for you.

How to tell if a celebrity has had plastic surgery.

What is the easiest, hardest and most painful plastic surgery.

Plastic surgery horror stories and nightmares.

What is the future of plastic surgery and aesthetic medicine.

Interview with Plastic Surgeon Dr. Gal Aharonov

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, plastic surgery secrets, and easy things that are really hard to do.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 0:24

Imagine taking a whole section of your abdomen, and now reattaching it with its vessels, its blood vessels to your face, it might, I might give you exactly what you want be like, This is exactly what you want it and you might be super unhappy. Because it's just not what you imagined it to be. You didn't realize how people would treat you different. But man, I'll tell you it's esthetic medicine is a dirty, dirty field if people only knew it's dirty, because listen, okay, there was a time where, literally, I was the world's leader. In making dimples.

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So when we started this show, this episode is really what we set out to do. Taking a topic that people were familiar with, curious about, and really revealing what the real story is what it's really like to be involved in it. Our first guest is a prominent plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills, who is known around the world. And he has this fascinating story about a industry that is focused on beauty, but can be very dirty. This is plastic surgeon, Dr. Gall aren't off real quick. I have to apologize. There's something in my audio. We're trying to figure out what's going on if it's in the upload, or the recording or whatever. But it's incredibly frustrating for us and we're trying to get it fixed. It's fine. It just annoys me that it's not what it could be. Is plastic surgery. Is it a complicated surgery? Or is it generally fairly uncomplicated compared to other surgeries? Of course?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 2:33

Ah, way less complicated, way less complicated. What do we even think plastic surgery is because I think like lay people associate plastic surgery with with some like, what do you think plastic surgery is?

Nick VinZant 2:47

The first thing that I would go to is like a nose reduction. Right? Like that's the thing that I would think first and you're using a knife, you cut open a side of the nose and you chop half of it off.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 3:00

So I think I think most people have that association with plastics, they think about esthetics, they think about all like, Yeah, but knows looking better, or the face looking better, or, you know, breasts or whatever. So, and there's a lot of other aspects of plastic surgery that are like more reconstructive like, you're actually taking like a big flap of tissue from another part of their body. Like, imagine taking a whole section of your abdomen, and now reattaching it with its vessels, its blood vessels to your face, right just to kind of, you know, fix some like huge defect in the face.

Nick VinZant 3:41

If you looked at plastic surgery as a whole, like the industry, how much of it would you say is kind of the reconstructive aspect and how much of it is I want to look better feel better about myself, like if we broke it into a percentage.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 3:53

I think as time goes by, it's more and more of that esthetic, you know, for for many different reasons. Public Interest demand, it's what people want, there's only going to be so much reconstructive stuff out there. But it's almost like limitless possibilities for this static side.

Nick VinZant 4:15

What like when you look at most kinds of plastic surgery, why is it less complicated than other kinds of surgery?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 4:23

Because it has to have such a high degree of success. Does that make sense? Like for example, if you're going into brain surgery, like you're lucky to come out alive, if you go in for a nose job, and you come out and there was a higher risk of death for that, for example, or, you know, 10% of people came out without a nose at all. I don't think many people would be getting those jobs. But if you got some brain cancer, I mean you do what you got to do you take 10% risk any day of the week.

Nick VinZant 5:00

That makes perfect sense. So then is it less complicated? Because plastic surgeons are like, we're only going to do the easiest stuff, we're only going to do the things we know can be successful, or is it just that? Like, it's really not that difficult to take? centimeters off? Somebody? No.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 5:21

Okay. So when you're talking about complicated, sometimes the complicated is going to be getting that result to be consistently good. Okay, so like, that's another factor, can you get something to be consistently good? And so a surgery might be easy by itself. But now the hard part is going to be to get consistently great results, or to have a predictable result that might be really hard. And yes, some surgeries are harder. nose jobs are known as more complicated not because the surgery is complicated. Anyone can go in there and technically do a nose job. But now there's different techniques, different little modifications, different refinements, that might be a lot harder.

Nick VinZant 6:12

When you go into the surgery, like, do you know exactly what somebody space is going to look like after you do it? Or are you taking more of an educated guess based on experience,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 6:23

you you kind of hope that after doing something a lot, you have a reasonably good idea of what they're going to look like. But it's not 100%? Because there's other factors when it comes to healing, or everyone might do a little different. It's not 100%. So like, I think that's that's like what you have to relate to people like for example, like what you just said, there, people, I think that's what people think of right now, like you probably if you're going to go have surgery right now and actually make that decision, you're going to want to know what you're getting. Yeah, like,

Nick VinZant 6:59

I would want you to show me a picture of what I'm going to look like afterwards. But you couldn't necessarily do that, like you don't completely know

Dr. Gal Aharonov 7:08

doing like we do have software that we could kind of like show you especially for knows it like okay, this is kind of what my plan is, but what the plan is might be totally different than the outcome. And that's what I think I think like, like, for example, if you came in for a console, yeah, to get your expectations to be in line with reality, is that usually a hard part of it? No, that's like 90% of it to be honest. Like, because really think about it. What's What would you consider a good result? What do you think is a good result? A good outcome with plastic surgery?

Nick VinZant 7:43

I guess that would be the difficult part is I don't really even know what a good result would be until after I saw it.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 7:49

Exactly. So you're coming in with expectations, right? And you might be like, Oh, I think I want my nose one inch back. You might not have any idea what that might even look like. It's true. Yeah. And it might, it might give you exactly what you want. Be like, this is exactly what you want it and you might be super unhappy. Because it's just not what you imagined it to be. You didn't realize how your whole fit, you didn't realize how people would treat you different. And now your dots weirded you out? There's so many variables.

Nick VinZant 8:25

Have you ever had clients come back to you and say, like, my whole life is different. People treat me differently. I don't feel like myself anymore.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 8:35

In good and bad ways. I've had people where they felt so great afterwards, that they realize that their their marriages are just not good for them, because that person was mistreating them. And now like they know better, like I'm gonna get myself out of this. So you've seen I've seen people come back and literally say, I got this huge promotion. And people give me so much more respect now after this, and they attribute it to this. So there's good, there's positive and negative and one thing might be positive in some ways and negative in another way

Nick VinZant 9:15

that feels like that says something about a society to right, like my life is exactly like this. And then I got my nose reduced by half an inch and now I've been promoted and I've got a new wife.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 9:26

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy how much and now I don't think that society like I used to think that I honestly I was very for years now. And I'll tell you, it's all changed when I've had children now because now I see how kids are firsthand. And I was like, fuck society. Fuck the media, like your the media is ruining us and all and now I'm like, Nah, man, this is this is our nature, the only thing the media and everyone else I'm like, fuck plastic surgeons, you know, all they do is you're trying to make money doing this stuff. And now I'm like, You know what it's us. Like we're born this way. The media, everything is just about giving us easy access. It's like lowering friction to what we really want. Like, how are your kids? Like, have you noticed something like extremely superficial that your kids kind of think in a way?

Nick VinZant 10:26

No, not really. But they're not aware of it. So I am on the lower side of average and height. I'm five, eight.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 10:35

Okay, so let me ask you this, imagine there was an easy thing that you could do to make you taller.

Nick VinZant 10:43

My wife is five foot and my youngest is probably going to be pretty small in that age of small where it could affect his life. And there's, like, if he's five, four, or five, five, how different would his life suddenly be if he was five, eight, or five, nine.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:02

So different, you know, and that's sad. But it's the truth. It's the truth, especially, you know, I, I hope our world will be less sexist and 20 years, but especially for a man

Nick VinZant 11:15

and but at the same time, then what if you change it, and then he's whole personalities, completely different? Oh, take away what made this

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:22

wonderful person you're right. But again, it's hindsight

Nick VinZant 11:25

when you do a surgery, right? And keep going back to the notes just because it's the easiest thing for me, right? But this everybody's pretty much the same?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:33

Well, okay, so you can have an idea, right? You go in and bait again, based on experience, you're like, Okay, I think this might be the issue. And you can have a plan in your head. Alright, this is what I think we're going to need to do. And let's say someone has never had a prior nose job. So you kind of have a good idea what normal anatomy is. For revision rhinoplasty. Everything's out the door, because you have no idea what's going to be in there. But for for like a fresh nose that's never had anything done. You got like, hopefully a decent idea.

Nick VinZant 12:07

Or you should, it still follows like the basic anatomy.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 12:11

Typically, like there might be other things like what maybe one side is more crumpled, and or, you know, this kind of an asymmetry exists in the cartilage or, or this or not, but yeah, it's yeah, there's like, usually typical anatomy, but in the know, you got to think about it. Like it might be typical anatomy. Now, it becomes like, well, how observant Are you? Because it might be typical, but there might be a couple of millimeter difference here and there. And if you're not aware of those couple of millimeters, that might be the difference between a great result and just a mediocre result.

Nick VinZant 12:49

How much room for error do you generally have?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 12:52

I mean, it really depends on your expectations, right? I mean, okay, so let's say your, your nose needs, like, like you got a giant nose, okay, giant, where we could just put a little tiny bomb in there, detonate it, and you'll come out looking better. Right? So so you've got a lot of room for error. Now if let's say your nose is okay, but you got like this one little tiny thing about it you really wish was different. Now we've got less room for error. So so that's what you got to factor in. And sometimes you got to make patients aware of that.

Nick VinZant 13:32

Is there a part of the face that's like, Oh, this is the hardest part.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 13:36

Okay, so here's the thing, like as surgeons, especially nowadays, we become very Mitchie. Were okay, let's say, in our parents generation, you are lucky if your town even had a plastic surgeon or maybe a surgeon in general. So that surgeon got to do everything and people didn't expect much and Great, thanks, Doc. Right people who would bring you gifts and being so thankful and giving you high fives. And now it's like people's expectations are through the roof, and they want to go to the best person for that particular thing. It's very different. It's easy to find that person. So you got a nose person, that's all they do is noses and you've got an eyelid person. All they do is eyelids or any number, any feature there could be a extreme sub specialist in that field. Who that's what they do.

Nick VinZant 14:32

What do you know, what do you specialize in? Oh, man,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 14:35

I mean, I don't really want to talk about myself specifically. But yeah, I mean, like, I'm probably very well known for forehead reductions. Okay, that's like, one of my babies were like literally we have most of our patients are flying in from all over the world for this one surgery. And most surgeons haven't even heard of it. How do you Reduce

Nick VinZant 15:00

somebody's forehead.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:02

Oh, man. It's gruesome. It's gruesome. Imagine scalping someone. Alright, so you cut, they're, they're making incision and you're literally moving the whole scalp forward and cutting away the extra piece of forehead just to make their forehead smaller.

Nick VinZant 15:18

But are she like cutting apart their skull?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:22

Oh, no, you're just lifting, you're lifting the scalp off

Nick VinZant 15:26

the skull. You're like moving their head forward.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:30

Yes, moving the scalp forward.

Nick VinZant 15:33

I have always loved the joke about like, that's not a forehand. That's a six head or that's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:37

what it's a funny joke until you realize the person on the other side of that joke is now devastated forever. Right? Yeah, one joke. One joke. This is why I really like I'm sure. I don't know how you are. But I mean, I, you know, I tried to be funny when I was a kid. And, you know, sometimes, we don't know what our funny jokes are actually doing to someone we don't even recall. I had a I had a second cousin once. And, like 10 years after the fact, she told me that when we were kids, I made a made a joke about her acne. And further, and I don't even remember. And for the rest, and since then, she has been so mortified about her skin. And I had no recollection. And here I was with my words, I, I literally changed the way this girl sees herself.

Nick VinZant 16:37

You know, joking around with the friends, the guys, that kind of stuff. I don't point out anything physical about people anymore. Like I have completely stopped doing that. Because you don't like never one person can't usually do anything about it. And it's just, it's just a difficult thing. Well, you have some of your clients come in and be like, I've always just been self conscious about Oh,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 17:01

yeah. I mean, like, like, I have literally people that their whole life. Since they were eight. I'll ask them what how long has this been bothering you? Right? That's like one of my first questions, because you want to have a good assessment of how great of an effect this has even had on their life. And yes, people would be like, since I was a little kid, since my sister made this comment, since my mom made this comment. And it's, yeah, it's it's a huge way.

Nick VinZant 17:30

But then for you, you know, like as a plastic surgeon and other plastic surgeons, do you just notice kind of like everything with people's faces, like, Oh, I could do this to you, I could do this, you would look like this. Like,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 17:41

everybody assumes that when they're talking to me, I'm like, analyzing their face. And I'm just I don't I honestly I don't even look at people, because they think I've just been dumb to it now. And my wife might come back with a different haircut, or her eyebrows done. Or I've no idea. Like, I'm just like every other man, I have no idea. And my wife will be like, Hey, did you notice this about this person's face? And what? No, right? And now people are like, what kind of a plastic surgeon Are you? You don't notice anything? And I'm like, listen, that's mine. I don't want to make it my job to point out people's flaws. That's not fun. I'm here to kind of help someone who has been self conscious their whole life about something.

Nick VinZant 18:30

So being at a Beverly Hills, like I'm imagining that are most of your clients more vanity based, like? Or are they more like self conscious base? I know, that's kind of the same thing. But I think you know what I'm getting,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 18:44

I know what you're getting at then. And I'll tell you, I don't want people to get an idea that they could generalize this. Because everyone's practice is so different. And I feel like you as a person will attract a certain type of clientele. Right, a certain type. That's true. Yeah. And so if you put that energy out there that you just want to like, fix vanity, and then you're gonna get you're probably gonna get more vein people coming to you. You put the energy out there that you're really trying to help people that have some like huge insecurity or weight on them, you're gonna attract that so and that could change in a heartbeat like you one day you change the way that you speak and that's gonna affect like, how, how people come to you or see you.

Nick VinZant 19:35

So is there a percentage in terms of like, okay, if I do this many consultations, this many people will actually go through with

Dr. Gal Aharonov 19:41

it. Um, okay, so here I have, like plastic surgery, like medicine in general, is very gray. It's not always black and white. And we try to make it as black and white as possible with like, algorithms and all this stuff and and For some fields in medicine, it's very easy to do to have kind of an algorithm of how you treat something. But man, I'll tell you it's a static medicine is a dirty, dirty field, if people only knew it's dirty, because, okay, let me ask you this, like, how you how do you like to live your life? Like, how would you how would you categorize yourself? Are you a simple man? Simple. I'm a simple person, too. But let's say I wasn't right. Let's say, I liked having a boat. And I like to have a big house. Well, I got to pay for that. So how am I gonna pay for that? Well, sounds gonna be patients are going to come to my office. And even if I aren't, if I'm not even aware of it, subconsciously, I might have the weight of my mortgage on my mind.

Nick VinZant 20:51

It's true, you are making a sale at the same time making a

Dr. Gal Aharonov 20:55

sale. And that's true in all of medicine to some degree. But in esthetic medicine, forget about it. I mean, it is. I mean, who's to say who's to say what should be done or not?

Nick VinZant 21:09

I'll I can definitely see that right. And people who are just with you get an A sort of unscrupulous, unscrupulous, whatever, whatever one of those words is correct. So he's like, Well, I could do this too. I could do that. You should have that done. Yeah, I could definitely see it getting like, oh, yeah, sales, maybe

Dr. Gal Aharonov 21:26

it's people don't realize that. And here we are as a society. And we think that like, oh, you know, if someone has a lot of stuff, they must be really good at what they're doing. Or must be, like really successful. But maybe they're just a little greedier. Okay, so esthetics is its own separate beast now, because you can have some, like esthetic doctor in Turkey, making a ton of money, when other doctors aren't doing, like, aren't making anything there. But esthetics is a huge draw now.

Nick VinZant 22:02

How much? I mean, when you look at like most plastic surgeries, like how much are they usually cost it?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 22:08

But it could be it could range like crazy, like, Okay, if you're talking about noses, you could find someone willing to do your nose for practically nothing, right? Like maybe a couple of $1,000. Or maybe they'll even find a way to finagle doing it on insurance or something like that. And you get people charging 2030 $40,000 for a nose job. That's how that's how much of a range there there is for everything.

Nick VinZant 22:41

When you look at like other doctors, is there. Are there bad ones, basically like, oh, he screwed that one up?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 22:49

Oh, like, Okay, so now there's people that consistently screw things up. We're all going to screw something up. We're all going to screw something up. It's really about how often you do it. And if you're doing if you think you're going to hit a home run 99% of the time, forget about it. There's no way I mean, you're a lucky to make someone happy 99% of the time. And if you're doing 100 surgeries, that means one person's really unhappy.

Nick VinZant 23:21

And all you need is that one. Oh, he's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 23:23

the one they like the i I'm very sensitive man. Like if someone's unhappy, I take that really, really hard. Like I don't want someone to be unhappy with something that I've done.

Nick VinZant 23:37

Oh, let me ask you this for so like what kind of training generally like how much training does a plastic surgeon usually have to go through?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 23:42

So okay, so again, there's many different ways to get to become a plastic surgeon. But let's say typically, you know, you go to med school, and then you do a residency that typically it's a surgical residency, and then you could do a fellowship. There's all kinds of different fellowships. So that's like, if you could be a female, it could be like, with medical school, like, over a decade easy.

Nick VinZant 24:08

Alright, you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Ah, bring it. Have you ever had somebody back out on the table?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 24:17

I've had to cancel some surgeries last second. Personally, not really on the table, but like in that holding room, right? Because like right before surgery, you're, you kind of see the patient in the pre op area. And yeah, I've cancer patients. I've had people. I don't think anyone backed out last second, but I've kind of felt that maybe the right thing would be to cancel because they're not ready. Right? And you don't want someone to have surgery just because they got to this point.

Nick VinZant 24:51

Can you pretty much like you've been doing it long enough. You can tell like okay, this person really doesn't know versus this person is just nervous.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 24:59

Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I try to suss them out beforehand. I spent a long time before we get to that point, you know, meet them the day before the week before, whatever, just like one last time before surgery. And I suss them out. Because listen, I don't want that. Like we said, I don't want an unhappy patient or someone who doesn't know what they're getting themselves into. I'm like, screw that. Like, why? Why is that worth it for me?

Nick VinZant 25:24

How come some people who have gotten plastic surgery don't look human anymore?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 25:29

Oh, man, I know, what are we doing to ourselves?

Nick VinZant 25:33

Is is that because they got a bad one? A couple of bad ones, or just you've done this too much.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 25:40

It could be anything like that. It could be any of those. It could be one bad thing just really screwed them up? It could be? Yeah, a few things that additively caused this. And why I mean, man, it could be their judgment. People come asking for craziest stuff all the time. And you got to talk sense into them. And some surgeons, that's that's their aesthetic. They kind of like that look, maybe or they think it looks good. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 26:12

What's the craziest request you've ever had?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 26:16

Listen, okay, there was a time where, literally, I was the world's leader in making dimples. Okay, put that into perspective. How crazy that is like somebody called my office once and asked if I do dimples, and I've never even never even crossed my mind. And not even a year later, I'm literally the world's expert at dimples because of that phone call. Right? So people ask for crazy as shit all the time. Hey, how do you make a dimple? Ah, you know, I like it. The simple answer is you literally make a little cut inside their mouth where dimple should be and you, you kind of like tie the muscle down and create a little little dimple. That's the simple answer.

Nick VinZant 27:10

This question is just should we be doing this? And I think what they mean by that is like, obviously, from a medical standpoint, like we can do it, we can take this thing from this part of your body and put it on your face. But I guess is there does it just work normally then?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 27:28

No. I always have the philosophy that like, anytime you cut yourself or do anything, things will just never be exactly the same. There's there's no there's no such thing as perfect surgery that has left no trace at all. I wish we never did any of this stuff. I'll be honest, I wish we lived in a world where we could all just be fully accepting of ourselves and our imperfections. But I just don't think we're built that way. I just don't think we are. And I think that like if they had this this type of ease 1000s of years ago, they would have done it back then.

Nick VinZant 28:12

Oh, yeah. No, I would say that we like we're never going to change. Right. It's one of those things. I understand what you mean, right? Like, we shouldn't be doing this. But we were always going to be doing this who is our who's easier to do surgeries on generally women or men?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 28:27

Oh, well, I mean, like, anatomically or just personality wise.

Nick VinZant 28:33

I guess both.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 28:34

I mean, anatomic? It depends. It really depends. Like for example, men's faces have a lot more vascularity. So they'll plead more when you do surgery. Like that's one thing I don't think most people know. They're just more vascular. But yeah, a lot of it is psychology. I think the hard part about plastic surgery is just like expectations. And because really, as a surgeon, you're like okay, well how am I going to meet this person's expectations or hopefully exceed them and there's just way more factors than just the that the actual surgical result and achieving that goal.

Nick VinZant 29:17

Hardest surgery. Easiest surgery, most painful surgery.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 29:23

I think I would say most plastic surgeons and esthetics would would say that rhinoplasty these are the hardest surgeries again, not because they're hard but because it's hard to get consistent results all the time. So that's the hard part. Easiest surgery look there's you could always make something hard or easy right? Anything we do we could there were there was like okay, like 50 years ago there were people doing rhinoplasty surgeries Okay, there was this guy name. I think his name was gold man, if I remember correctly, like really obviously he's dead now. But he would do these rhinoplasty is called the Goldman tip. It took him like five minutes to do five minutes, you'll go in there and with a knife, just go cut cut. And that was the surgery. It was called they did this thing called the Goldman tip surgery to narrow a tip. And it took five minutes to do. And he was world famous. I mean, look, here I am i I'm talking. I'm still known all this time, though, right? Don't know. And it was the easiest thing on on. And now no one should be doing that because it caused so much. So many long term issues. Oh, yeah, people couldn't even breathe afterwards. But they love their cute little tiny, narrow tip. I had a girl, I had a girl last week, and we're gonna do her rhinoplasty and I told them she couldn't breathe. And I'm like, listen, to get you to breathe. We got to make your nose a little wider right here. Because it's too narrow. It's just like, fuck that. No way. I'd rather not breathe.

Nick VinZant 31:03

I wonder how many people if you said, look, I can make your eyes look perfect. But you're only going to be able to see at one of them. How many people would probably be like, Okay,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:12

I'll bet some I'll bet more than we would expect.

Nick VinZant 31:16

Okay, I try to ask this question in a way that you can answer it. If you were to rank famous people on a scale of like 10 is the most famous people. And one is like they're famous, but like, what number would be the most famous person then you've consulted or operated while?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:34

You're probably nine, I would say

Nick VinZant 31:37

is pretty much everybody in Hollywood had one. Listen, we

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:41

live in a world where what city? Do you live in? Seattle? Okay, so here in LA, the crazy thing? I think most 20 something year old normal girls have had something at this point. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy to me like that, it just becomes so normal now to just go get your lips done. Or go get a little something here or get a little bit. It's just crazy to me.

Nick VinZant 32:10

The only thing that I would say that annoys me about it. And I don't know if in no way is the right word. Give me some growth is when people don't admit to it, right? Like if a celebrity is just like, No, I just look like this. Or I just use this skincare product. When in reality like you've had all this stuff done. That's the only thing that I feel like they're creating an unrealistic expectation,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 32:35

you know what, and to me, it's like, I see being a role model is a huge responsibility. Right? So sometimes you got to think to yourself, like, for example, I don't really like being in public that much. Honestly, I kind of shy away from publicity. And it's just not my thing. I don't like being recognized. But if you're making a conscious effort to be a recognizable figure, and now you know that you are a role model, you've got to like, at least me, you got to see that as some responsibility. And now you got to ask yourself, Okay, well, what am I doing to people if I'm their role model?

Nick VinZant 33:17

Have you seen the movie face off? And it's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 33:20

so cool. Yeah. With Nicolas Cage. Could you do right? Yeah, it's, uh, maybe I think it'd be I, will we be there one day? I don't know. I think that's a little extreme. But if you think about, we could make so many modifications. Now, I have people bring in a picture of what they want to look like, whether it be a celebrity or whatever. And they're like, Okay, I need this a little bit more like this. And so it doesn't have to be so extreme, like, let's just switch faces. But is there's a lot we can do now.

Nick VinZant 33:53

Can you can you fundamentally change what somebody is look like? And I mean, that in the sense, like, can you take an apple and change it into an orange? Or can you just take take an apple and change it into a different kind of Apple?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 34:07

So I think there's like some things about us that are really recognizable. I don't know if you remember a few years ago. What's her name? What's that actress from? Bridget Jones's Diary. What was the name? Zellweger? Yeah, remember, Zellweger? Remember, people were just flipping out like what did you do to her face?

Nick VinZant 34:28

I do remember that kind of I remember Jerry Jones from the Cowboys when he like had like, whoa,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 34:33

you know what? And I get this all the time. So So sometimes we have a really recognizable feature about us. Whether it's be br eyes, or something or nose. Like oh, what's your name? JENNIFER GRAY. You remember JENNIFER GRAY from Dirty Dancing. No, you don't you know why? You know why don't remember her. She went she got a nose job. And she looks like Different person. And then And then so you look at at Renee Zellweger, she didn't really do that much she went, she got her some eyelid surgery just to cut away a little bit of the extra skin. And that just changed her look drastically. So you know, you sometimes you don't have to do that much to change your look drastically. But if it's like a really prominent feature on you like something that that is really weather striking. And when you are another what something that that kind of gives you your character. And if you change that sometimes even slightly, that can make a real big difference.

Nick VinZant 35:38

I do remember that now. And I think that she's in some new show. And I was like, Who the hell is

Dr. Gal Aharonov 35:44

that? Oh, yeah, you got the Google JENNIFER GRAY before all she did. She went she got her nose done. And it wasn't even a bad rhinoplasty. But she had like, it was just her feature. And she changed it and boom, poof, different person.

Nick VinZant 36:02

Now, could you see that comment ahead of time? Yeah, what used to be like cry change that. I

Dr. Gal Aharonov 36:06

say that all the time. That's my I tell that sometimes people listen, and sometimes they don't. And I'm like, ma'am, please don't change that about yourself. That's like your character. And they'll be I don't like my character. And you're like, Well, you say that now. But let's see you lose that and how you feel that?

Nick VinZant 36:26

That's true. Yeah, that's crazy, right? Like somebody has a very identifiable thing. And if they lose that, then you're like, oh, who the hell are you anymore? Um, oh, how can I spot a bad plastic surgeon?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 36:40

Yeah. It's so hard. It's so hard. Because Okay, I'll be honest, let's say nowadays, right? You, you look up someone's website, and you look at their reviews, and you look at their before and after photos. And you gotta you gotta say to yourself, even if you see a lot of great before and after photos. You don't know what percentage of the time they got that result? How that's yeah, people's truth about that, like, Okay, is it they just have good judgment about what a good result is? Like, can you imagine if you if you did 100 surgeries, and one of them turned out really great. But now you're only showing that one, you're not showing the 99 others that turned out horribly? People might think you're a great surgeon. These are the things the public, they just, you know, they're not awareness. Not you know, it's not like we're expecting to be aware. But, man, it's a it's very easy to manipulate people's opinions now, like, what makes a great surgeon now like the person who has the most followers on on tick tock? I get contacted all the time, like, hey, we have a spot available for this article. We're writing about the best plastic surgeons in America do you want to pay to be in it?

Nick VinZant 37:59

Next, that is for people who may not be aware, a lot of times when you see those kinds of Best of lists can be on that list all the time. All the time, pretty much now. Like they're usually pretty much bullshit,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 38:14

man. It's, yeah, it's all bullshit. And people don't know that. Right? Because people like they want to, to have some trust. They want to feel like they're going, they're going to have a great result. They're going to a great surgeon, but there's no way of knowing that's the scary part.

Nick VinZant 38:32

That's crazy, right? Um, where do you think it goes in the future?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 38:37

There, there's no end. There's no end. It's all going to be oh, here's Yeah, some new thing that is now easy to do. If we can make something easy, then there's a market for it. That's really, like that's the limiting factor. How many things can we make easy and accessible?

Nick VinZant 38:58

But do you think we'll even get to the point of like, well, you know what, your shoulder blade sticks out a little bit?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 39:04

Yes. Where there were there I know a surgeon who literally reduces the size of people's clavicles because it makes their their neck and shoulder looks better. It's not It's crazy or or reduce the size of someone's calves or make the calves bigger or so many things. There's no end there's listen as a person who literally for years was the world's dimple expert, and how ridiculous that is and how many people flew in for such a ridiculous thing. I am not surprised by anything anymore.

Nick VinZant 39:43

Who has the world's dental title now who did you lose the title? No,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 39:46

I stopped doing them because I just found it to be so ridiculous and I wanted to pursue other things. So years ago, I stopped promoting it. I stopped like I turned people away. We don't really promote it. I think there's a guy in Georgia now who basically does a lot of them and promotes himself as doing them. I don't know him personally, but he's, he's now the king, I lost my I lost my crown.

Professional Disc Golfer Ricky Wysocki

Ricky Wysocki is the best Disc Golfer in the world. But not too long ago he was sleeping in his car and living off the dollar menu. We talk Disc Golf, the secrets to improving your game and pursuing your passion. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Funnest Things to Throw.

Ricky Wysocki: 01:55ish

Pointless: 24:25ish

Top 5: 37:42ish

https://twitter.com/sockibomb13

https://www.instagram.com/sockibomb13

Topics we discuss:

How Ricky Wysocki became the best Disc Golfer in the World

Ricky Wysocki’s exercise, practice and diet routines

How much does Ricky Wysocki Practice

The best tips for new disc golfers

The best tips for experienced disc golfer

How to throw a disc golf disc

How much do professional disc golfers make

What discs are in Ricky Wysocki’s bag

Interview with Professional Disc Golfer Ricky Wysocki

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, disc golf, and the funnest things to throw,

Ricky Wysocki 0:20

I think that's so entertaining. And that's what drew me to the sport when I first started, and how much more involved it is than just throwing a disc. You got to shape the disc go around trees, and there's so many more variables than I started off sleeping in my car traveling around all the tournaments that the professional tour had. And I wasn't making any money sleeping on sleeping in my car. And so it just turned into a battle with myself to fight off what people are telling me and as a young kid, that's hard. For anyone, that's the difference between four or five years ago and now is there's a little bit more benefit. I think, now that people more people know about it.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is now the best disc golfer in the world. But just a few years ago, he was sleeping in his car, eating off the dollar menu. So it's really a fascinating story about not only the ins and outs of what it's like to be a professional disc golfer. But also what can happen if you stay committed to something that you're passionate about. This is professional disc golfer. Ricky why Saki real quick. I did something to my audio. But Ricky's is great. His story is fascinating. And I don't usually talk much in interviews anyway. So I hope you enjoy. So from an outsider's perspective, it seems like disc golf is suddenly way more popular.

Ricky Wysocki 2:00

Yes, our sport has grown leaps and bounds throughout the just the past two years, I think the pandemic was actually we have a professional organization that PDGA. And they actually grew to, like 10 years worth of growth in two years. So like I said, the pandemic, people want to be outside people want to be in the local parks. And why not throw throw discs around and play a local course and gain a new hobby in the process?

Nick VinZant 2:25

Do you think that will last? Or do you think this is like a blip and we ride this thing as far as we can.

Ricky Wysocki 2:31

So for me personally, I think that the sport and as fun as it is, and how exciting it is to throw shots and see how it just flies, I think that's so entertaining. And that's what drew me to the sport. When I first started that I think that once people try the sport out and really see how fun it is, and how much more involved it is than just throwing a disc, you got to shape the disc go around trees, and there's so many more variables than, than what meets the eye when you first play it that people will will continue playing even after the hopefully the pandemic is over. And so I think that, that the growth is sustainable, and the people that the people that are playing are going to continue to play and then there's just going to be more and more people that see find the passion just like the people that already are playing Disc Golf.

Nick VinZant 3:16

Okay. So like outsider again. To me, it looks like you're throwing a Frisbee, right? Explain to me why that it's so much more complicated than that.

Ricky Wysocki 3:27

Just like any professional sport, you can. There's so many different levels to it. There's someone just starting like a lot of the people over the pandemic. And then there's people like me that practice train workout, and it's my career. That's what I do. I travel and I'm a professional disc golfer. And so I think that that's the beauty of it. Is there somewhere for everybody to fit into the sport.

Nick VinZant 3:47

When did you realize like you were Oh, I'm good.

Ricky Wysocki 3:50

So I grew up in Ohio and I just grew up near a local course that had a local park near me I could I could almost throw this to the course from where I grew up. So that was a definitely a bonus. And and so I just grew up I went to the course played and practiced every day and I just fell in love with with with this Golf I just enjoyed watching it disc fly. I enjoyed when all the body movements work together and you through a good shot. It's much like golf the form and is so important in how you move your body propels the disc and so I like the individuality of it. It's you control your destiny if the shot goes good or goes bad, it's all up to you. And and so yeah, that was that was what really drew me to it and and yeah,

Nick VinZant 4:35

why are you good at a lot of

Ricky Wysocki 4:37

different reasons. But I think that um, I've always been athletic. I've always loved competition. I've always been the type of person that find something and I go all in on something whether it's, for me, it's been like nutrition, health and wellness, disc golf. And so I just I did whatever it took to to grow as a person as a as an athlete, and do whatever it takes to just keep getting better and going, going up the pyramid have grown through the ranks of the sport and growing up as an amateur Junior and amateur than a professional. And so for me, it was just, I dove out in the deep end, I went on tour on the professional tour, and I was like 1617 years old. And, of course, I didn't succeed at first, I started off sleeping in my car traveling around all the tournaments that the professional tour had, and I wasn't making any money sleeping on sleeping in my car, eating off the dollar menu at McDonald's just to make it and but that allowed me to get exposure allowed me to gain experiences that I would have never been able to experience if I didn't sleep in my car and eat off the dollar menu. And so that's kind of what shaped me in my career. And I think it's just a test of my personality of, I'm going to do whatever it takes, and you know, put all my eggs in one basket, because you always hear people saying, Oh, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. But sometimes you have to, to really get paid off on your, your career path or what your vision is.

Nick VinZant 6:03

Did you ever think of like the same kind of work?

Ricky Wysocki 6:07

Obviously, you know, as a young kid, you know, you don't mind? You know, I think it's easier to grind it out in like I said, sleep in your car and do all the things I was doing as a rookie to try and make it and so there was times that yeah, there's adversity, there's, there's, you're like, I'm not making any money. I'm out here just basically donating my entry fees to the professional field. And, and, and, you know, cost money to live cost money to enter the tournaments. And, and so you just kind of reflect and just think, hey, maybe this isn't for me. But, but I fought through that. And I just kept practicing. And I kept my mind to doing everything I needed to do to get better and grow even if it was just a little bit you know, from week to week, you grow that little bit even if you're not making money, you're growing as a player and that is going to slowly pay dividends as as my career career developed. And that's luckily what happened for me.

Nick VinZant 7:00

from a physical standpoint, though, it's not like Ricky's got the best design wrists for snapping the Frisbee, right? Like, there's not something like a basketball player, right? Like, you got to be pretty tall. There's not something physically about you. They're like, Ooh, man, that guy's who is a DISPRO right there. So actually,

Ricky Wysocki 7:21

they're they're kind of is a lot of the a lot of top players are long and lanky. That's kind of like a very common trait for people that can throw far. So obviously, that's one of the many ways to measure someone as a player is how far you can throw. And just like any sport, you're always you're always wanting to push the limits how far can far can you throw, how can I gain more distance, just like golf, you know, you'd be more distance you have, the easier it is to play courses because you're farther a lot closer to the hole. So same to disc golf. Same for Disc Golf. So a lot of the top players, obviously not all of them, there's just like basketball, there's some players are five foot seven are good. And there's players are seven foot two that are good, you know, but in general, longer, lanky, 6465 a lot of players I'm six for myself, a lot of the other top players are 6465 that long, you know long arms, being able to get full, better extension when you're reaching back and trying to get the leverage on the disc. So to answer questions, yeah, there is a certain build that are better off and set you up to throw further. Don't like I said, don't get me wrong, loose. They're shorter players on tour that harness a lot of energy and throw really far as well. But but it's just like a lot of sports that you know, they may have to work harder. They have to, you know, fight a little harder to to gain that same distance that maybe someone of my height or even taller than me would.

Nick VinZant 8:45

So what what separates a pro like you from somebody who's just really good? Like are you throwing it farther? Are you more accurate? Can you like carving around a building? Like what what's what makes you a pro?

Ricky Wysocki 8:58

I think it's my training I think that you know, I take it serious I'm you know, I work out a lot I do a lot of resistance bands stretching, eating healthy, stable stability, mobility drills with with my workouts, I'm doing a lot of that. And so, and then when it comes to physically on the course, it's it's a lot of Yeah, I can make the shots when I need to I but I've been on tour for now 1011 years. So I've got a lot of experience. And so that all pays off. And it's just just like any sport, you want to be able to make that putt or make that long shot down the stretch of a tournament to win that tournament. And so the people that can handle the pressure and handle adversity are going to separate themselves within the sport. Being from a good to you know, a top 1% In your sport me being the best player in the world. Yeah, there's certain things in certain shots that I've been I'm better at a higher percentage. It's just like any sport higher percentage of if I have let's say just for Disc Golf, we use feet so like a 30 foot putt Say the 20th place guy in the world, you know, we both may make that putt, but I may make it at 95%, he may make it at 87%. And so that percentage doesn't come into play eventually. And, and that's where that small minute difference makes a big difference. Say that last let last putt maybe for the win on the last hole of a tournament. And that's why I'm number one. And that's why maybe some other people are not, it's all about, it's all about percentages, and how you get the highest percentages in each category putting driving approach game.

Nick VinZant 10:30

So hope this question doesn't come off as like a jerk question. But did people ever kind of tried to discourage you or other pros, right? Like I'm imagining the scene in the movie where the dad is like, Ricky, you? Can't you? What's he doing with his life? He's preventing professional golfer, right? Like, Do people ever kind of do that to you?

Ricky Wysocki 10:52

People definitely tried to say, Hey, you can't make can make this a career, you can't do that. You can't you know, and it just goes back to like, my parents actually did it. Because my parents wanted obviously, they want to look out for the best for the kid. And I was playing a lot of baseball. And I was I was very good at baseball. And I feel like I could have went to college potentially. And but they but I decided to go on to this Golf Tour instead. And so there's people that my parents were were the number one obviously, at 1617 years old, I want to call them and tell them about my life. But they weren't really interested because they wanted me to go the conventional path. And at the time, disc golf wasn't really what it is. Now, there wasn't really much of a career path there. And and so for me, it was different than most other people because nowadays, I think there's there's career paths for for young kids and players coming up and way more than it used to be. But yeah, for me, I definitely it was, yeah, I had to fight through, you know, people telling me no, you can't do that. And, you know, and then you start doubting, like, hey, maybe, you know, maybe this disc golf thing isn't, you know, isn't for me, or it's not gonna make me any money or it's not gonna give me what I want. But, you know, I get to travel, I got to travel the world, I got to see so many new places, new courses, that it wasn't just all about the money either at the time.

Nick VinZant 12:06

This is something that kind of fascinates me, right? Because we've talked to people who have a kind of a similar story in the sense that, like, how do you stick with something when everybody else is like, You're wrong, but you know, you're right. Like, how do you stick with that?

Ricky Wysocki 12:22

Yeah, that's, that's a hard question. Because it's like, you know, it's I didn't you know, at the time, you don't really, you know, you have to, it's basically it comes to a point where it's all mental. It's all hey, this person is telling me one thing, I know something else. So what's gonna, what's gonna, what's gonna win? Am I gonna let someone else win? That's telling me how you can't do this? Or am I going to be mentally strong and say, Hey, no, I'm going to do this. So for me, it was the mental fortitude to fight through that and say, Hey, like, the sport can grow, I'm going to grow as a player, as an athlete, I can get better. And at the time, it was like, you had to be like, you know, top one or two in the world to really make any money. Now, it's like the top 50 or 100 can really make money in the world. And so so for me, it was like very far fetched to say, Hey, I'm going to be the number one player in the world at one point and make money make a brand, and really have a following enough to where I can make a living out of it. And so it just turned into a battle with myself to fight off what people are telling me and as a young kid, that's hard because you get easily influenced by other people. And, and you know, they're just looking out for your best interest. So you're like, alright, if these older, more experienced people are telling me this, that could be true. So you had to just completely even though you know, it was kind of true, you had to just kind of kind of avoid it and not really think about it and just focus on yourself and focus on what you can control and not what other people are saying.

Nick VinZant 13:49

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, do you have a general strategy when approaching the course I will

Ricky Wysocki 13:57

I normally play if it's a tournament event ProTour event I will show up about three or four days ahead of time, scope out the course play three or four rounds take mental notes on each hole, how my how my disc reacts in certain holes, how it skips off the ground how how the winds affecting it on that hole. So there's so many dynamics within each hole and each course that I'm dialing in mentally so that way when I play the tournament, I have I have a mental note saying hey, this hole does this this whole you know disc roll off of this hill and generally trickle to the right or there's water on the left that dislike to skip into naturally. And so there's just all these different variables that I'm thinking of to to make my shot perfect as best as I can.

Nick VinZant 14:41

Do you get mad if somebody says frisbee golf instead of disc golf?

Ricky Wysocki 14:46

No, I don't get mad I think it's just you know, newer players or newer people in the sport they just they think they see a frisbee and they see we're playing golf and it's pretty easy to say hey, it's frisbee golf. But everybody in our in the sport like Professional and everybody anybody that's been around it just calls it disc golf but I think it's just all today's is, you know, you can tell if someone's a newbie or newer player or or more seasoned veteran or someone that's been around the game they you know that that's how you can kind of decipher the two. But it's not really like, hey, we judge the people that call it Disc Golf. It's a frisbee golf. It's not like that. It's just it's just another way to call it and it doesn't we don't really take offense to it some. Some people do but me I'm I don't really I don't take offense to that.

Nick VinZant 15:28

Like, what's the difference between the Frisbee and the disc, right, because I've tried the sport before and I can throw a Frisbee, but I tried to throw that thing and I'm like, What the fuck?

Ricky Wysocki 15:37

So frisbee is like, what you think of like a beach Frisbee? It's real, like real thick. It's real big, big in the hand. And then so I'd say like, it's thick like that. I would say like that thick versus a disc golf disc is like real thin. Yeah, it's real thin in the end, and it has, it's really aerodynamic. So that's the difference between a frisbee and a disc is the aerodynamics how far it goes. So regular Disc Golf disc can go way further if you throw it right then then actual like beach frisbee or an ultimate frisbee or whatever. Something with a real thicker lip and not quite as aerodynamic. So that could be that's a big difference between frisbee golf and disc golf. Potentially, if you really want to get you know nerdy with it.

Nick VinZant 16:17

Do you throw it differently?

Ricky Wysocki 16:19

Um, no, you So you throw it similarly, but the motions the same but there's little intricacies like how you release your wrist on certain shots based on how the Frisbee flies. So, in this golf, you basically your your wrist and your arm is is the is where the disc is going to go. So it's just think of it like a club. If you if you finish with your clubface open your ball is gonna go right. So I finished my wrist down on my arm like this, my Frisbee is gonna go left just based on the gravity and aerodynamics of how a disc flies. So essentially, your arm and your wrist control were the discos and and that's the most important thing in the throat.

Nick VinZant 16:55

When you look at like an amateur, what are you seeing that like, Oh, you're doing this.

Ricky Wysocki 17:02

So the biggest flaws when I see newer players is they like to throw it like right up in straight up in the air. And it's just like lifting your shoulders up one way or another instead of trying to keep on good posture, and rotating. That's the most important thing. And and almost what I like to tell people is it's like, if you want to throw straight, which is the most important shot when you're first learning is you got to feel like you're sliding your arm across a table tabletop to keep that nice flat plane coming through. Yeah. So so if you if you deviate from that if you go too low or too high, you're you're not going to be on that tabletop. So if you can slide across that tabletop all the way through your shot all the way through your throat, then you're going to have a nice flat shot. And so in general, that's a great tip for beginners to start and learn how to practice throw straight,

Nick VinZant 17:49

favorite course course that just has your number.

Ricky Wysocki 17:53

So my my favorite course is probably in Vermont. So Vermont, they have a ski resort smuggler's notch resort in Vermont, it's a well known ski resort. And then in the summer, they turn it into like a world class disc golf course. And we have big events. We've had the World Championships out there. We have big events every year. So it's an amazing property. And it's one of the most well known on the tour. And then of course, it has my number let's see here. Um, there's, there's a course and and so in Europe, there's a European Open, it's in Finland, that course is it always seems to challenge me a lot. It's a it's a course that has this a lot of OB a lot out of balance. And I just sound for some reason don't play very well there. And it's in. It's in Finland, it's in Tampere, Finland. So there's always a big disc golf major there. And it's a European Open. And that's a that's one of the obvious biggest tournaments, Europe.

Nick VinZant 18:54

Is there like a mecca for Disc Golf? Right? Like you think of snowboarding you're thinking of like Park City or something?

Ricky Wysocki 18:59

Yeah, I would say Charlotte, North Carolina. So Charlotte Scott per capita want some of the most courses and the most pros are there because the best courses, but yeah, if you're in the say, the downtown area of Charlotte, and you drive like let's say 30 or 40 minutes in a circle, any direction you can hit. Probably like a couple 100 courses.

Nick VinZant 19:21

What's in your bag right now.

Ricky Wysocki 19:23

So Dynamic Discs, that's my sponsor right here. They're a disc golf manufacturer and, and so I throw a lot of their discs and latitude. And so they latitude this and also Westside this so those are the three companies I throw right now.

Nick VinZant 19:38

First Date, man, correct me on the numbers, right. 4,000,004 years. Whoo. First thing you bought,

Ricky Wysocki 19:47

actually, first thing I bought was crypto. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 19:50

And that is a that is a modern purchase, isn't it?

Ricky Wysocki 19:53

So yeah, I just I I've just always been a believer and I wanted to invest invest in something and I felt coming trouble with that, and I, you know, I'm a firm believer in it. So yeah, I wanted to invest in that. And yeah, I wanted to, to make good investment I think that will pay off in the next five to 10 years.

Nick VinZant 20:09

Now. He said, Okay, so you're a professional, you can obviously do this full time right now. Right? Can you though retire, like when I'm done, this is um, done like you're set financially for the next the rest of your life, or you make a pretty good mount and then you got to go get a job at Goldman Sachs or whatever.

Ricky Wysocki 20:28

So So yeah, the for me in my where I'm at in my career, the disc golf, you can the disc golf career, I would say is much like an I would say an NBA or baseball player, it's like 37 to 40. It was usually depending on how you take care of your body injuries, all that. But yeah, and then after the after you retire. For me, it'd be getting into like course design. So using my brand, my name, and everything. And in going to city parks and saying, Hey, I'm a world champion, I can design a par disc golf course for your city. And so I have a brand and I have, you know, a following that, that would be totally worthwhile. And people would want that it would be a big draw. And so that stuff you can get into even after your playing days, is working with the manufacturer to be a team manager for all the top professional players of that team, doing course design. So there's lots of different opportunities that once you build your brand, you can kind of parlay your playing career into your business career. After that.

Nick VinZant 21:30

I'm going to ask this question exactly as it has been written so that it doesn't sound like I'm asking it, does being a disc golfer help you or hurt you when looking for love at the bar?

Ricky Wysocki 21:45

Anyone? So I guess I'm not I don't, I don't go to the bar for that. But if I did, I think it would be a lot more beneficial lately now that the sports grown a lot, because more people have heard about it. If you you know, say if you went to the bar four or five years ago and said, Hey, I'm a professional disc golfer, they'd be like, what's that? And then you got to like, explain to them what disc golf is. And it kind of kind of ruins the moment, you know, like, you have to explain what you are professional of it's like, okay, well, that's, that's you kind of killed the vibe there. But if you're like, Oh, I'm professional disc golfer, and they've heard about it, they're like, Oh, that's cool. You know, it kind of impresses them. So yeah, that's the difference between four or five years ago. And now is there's a little bit more benefit. I think, now that people more people know about it.

Nick VinZant 22:29

residual benefits, man, you can't go wrong with that. Um, that's pretty much all the questions we got is like, what's kind of coming up next for you? I know the tours getting started soon.

Ricky Wysocki 22:38

Yeah, so I'll kind of share a little bit of my schedule. So yeah, I'm heading to Las Vegas. So the lot the Las Vegas challenge is the first tournament of the year. So we have a professional tour of like 20 to 25 events that go anywhere from from Vegas, to Texas to Vermont, to Portland, Oregon, to all the way to Europe, we have events in Norway, we have events in Finland. So as a huge presence and in Finland and disc golf in Finland is probably is, is they did a study on it, or stat and it's the second most popular sport in Finland, behind hockey, so it's hockey, and then Disc Golf. So that's how much it's grown in other countries. And I definitely who knows in the States, but maybe five years down the road disc golf. I definitely see college sports, you know, getting into sponsorships, or scholarships, I should say. So I don't think that's too far away. But yeah, so I'm going to be going on the tour. And you know, every week is a grind, you know, traveling every week going to new city, plan, plan new courses, it's a great, it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of stress, and a lot of driving, as well. So we're doing a lot of that doing a lot of signing disk signings at local shops and different things like that. But yeah, and if you guys, if you're falling wants to get a get a hold of my schedule, you can check me out on Instagram on Sokoban 13 or Twitter, that's soccer mom 13 as well. So that's kind of where I keep up, up to date on my tour what I'm doing and you can get yourself involved in the disc golf world.

Ventriloquist Jack Williams

Ventriloquist Jack Williams is bringing new life to an old art. His standup routines and videos have entertained millions and sparked a growing interest in ventriloquism. We talk how to become a ventriloquist, the hardest words to say and the last time someone thought his puppet was actually alive. Then, we put Barney and Yoda against Elmo and Grover as we countdown the Top 5 Puppets.

Jack Williams: 01:20ish

Pointless: 29:09ish

Top 5: 39:07ish

https://www.tiktok.com/@puppetjack (Jack Williams TikTok)

https://www.instagram.com/puppetjack_/ (Jack Williams Instagram)

Topics we discuss:

• How to become a ventriloquist

• How long does it take to become a ventriloquist

• The hardest words for a ventriloquist to say

• The most expensive ventriloquist dummies

• The most famous ventriloquists

• How to throw your voice

• Jack Williams on TikTok

Interview with Ventriloquist Jack Williams

Nick VinZant 0:10

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, ventriloquism and puppets

Jack Williams 0:19

being a ventriloquist, it's it's kind of like a different life and like a lot of normal lives. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the BS with ds. So you want to say Dask doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him, there might be the possibility that you might not be good either. And that's that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian.

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because if you're like me, you want to know how they do that. This is ventriloquist Jack Williams, I think the first question has to be right, obviously, like, how do you do this?

Jack Williams 1:23

Um, well, I would say being a ventriloquist. It's it's kind of like a different life. And like a lot of normal lives. It takes a lot of dedication, but just the actual ventriloquism aspect of doing it is mostly all about using your tongue, and breath control, and using your diaphragm. So I do a lot of tongue twister exercises. And I usually will, you know, put my tongue on the roof of my mouth when I'm trying to say a word. And that's pretty much all of what ventriloquism is, it's just all it's all about, like just using your tongue and kind of making sure your lips aren't you know, shaky or anything like that, and making it really steady. It's a long explanation, like I've been doing this for, I want to say 13 years now, ever since I was like, 12 years old. So it's been a it's been a long journey, for sure.

Nick VinZant 2:28

How long did it take before you got good at it like good enough, where you could actually do this kind of in public kind of thing.

Jack Williams 2:36

You know, it's interesting. I, I would say that I when you cuz I feel like when you're young, you can kind of pick up things and learn things a lot quicker than when you're older. And so when I started I would say I didn't really, because I started performing. I started at 12. And I started performing when I was 14. And looking back at those tapes of me performing I performed at a ventriloquist convention. So that's kind of like how I got introduced to it, I would go to these conventions, where there was about 500 ventriloquist all in one place. And it's in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And so in my mind, I was like, wow, that's this is like a normal thing. So that's that really was what got me into it. And so I felt comfortable performing around other ventriloquists. And I would even say a 14 I was I was pretty decent performing. But it I think I really started getting good. Once I moved out to LA and started doing like comedy clubs and stuff like that, because that was like the real test of okay. You have to be funny, and you have to do lip control and all that stuff. So I'd say probably like, where I felt like I was like a kind of more rounded performer like in my life, like 22, I would say.

Nick VinZant 3:57

So is it kind of like magicians where there's a secret and you don't necessarily tell people or is it? Pretty much you can look up on the internet like how to become a ventriloquist?

Jack Williams 4:08

Yeah, I would say that most ventriloquists are self taught. I haven't met a single ventriloquist that had a teacher or somebody like teaching them ventriloquism unless it's sometimes pageant you know people in pageants when they want to do a ventriloquist act they'll have a teacher but I'd say most ventriloquist who just want to do it as an art form are all self taught. Like I I started out what got me into ventriloquism was watching goose bumps the the one with the Slappy dummy. And I, my friend was so afraid of the dummy and I wasn't afraid. I just thought like I want one of those. And I asked my dad I was like, Do you have a ventriloquist dummy? And he was just like, yes, but he actually did have one in his garage, so I started practicing with that it was like an old Jerry Mahoney dummy that Paul Winchell used to use ventriloquist from his childhood. And so I just started practicing with that, you know, scaring my brother kind of just walking around the house doing like stupid little acts. And yeah, I would say most of intro liquids kind of start out that way, just kind of experimenting and just talking to themselves as weird as that sounds.

Nick VinZant 5:29

Were you surprised that your dad had a ventriloquist dummy in the house?

Jack Williams 5:33

Looking back at it, I think I should have been surprised. But as a 12 year old, I think I was just really happy that he had one.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Yeah, I could definitely see that as being one of those things where you're like, Oh, awesome. You've got it. And then later in life, like why didn't

Jack Williams 5:46

Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 5:47

It's not your little unexpected way.

Jack Williams 5:50

That's not like, I don't think every parent has a doll like that talks.

Nick VinZant 5:55

So when you do it, right, so are you talking the same way? You're just doing it more? Your tongue is essentially performing the duties of both your mouth and your tongue? Does this make any sense? You're essentially talking without moving? Yeah,

Jack Williams 6:13

exactly. So when I'm talking and doing ventriloquism, it's especially on stage it's kind of like compared to juggling because sometimes I've had instances where I will have will, the the puppets voice will come out of my mouth, and I won't even subconscious I'll be like, oh, like I just, I just did the puppets voice. I wasn't trying to do that. And, but so it's like, it's doing comedy and focusing on moving your lips and controlling a puppet. So when I'm doing it, it's almost now it's like second nature. It's like the two kind of brains basically like the puppet brain and my brain. But I also have to keep like conscious of not moving my mouth as well. It's like a constant conversation. So if I'm like, hey, hey, what's up? Nothing? You good? Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, like, it's, it's just like this back and forth, like dialogue as far as like, just how, like, you would talk to somebody, you know, it's confusing. There's a lot of little parts to it that you kind of learn as, as you you know, get into like, I'd say, like your five of being a ventriloquist.

Nick VinZant 7:28

Now, does it? Do you have some kind of your vocal cords are special? You have this uniquely shaped tongue? You're what? Is there something physical.

Jack Williams 7:41

Um, I would say that it's it's straight practice, because I don't think I was born with any like, unique tongue or anything like that. I would say that. I was always like a performer as a kid, like I did acting and other stuff before ventriloquism, but the reason that I pursued it, as I knew that I was good at it, like I knew that I was better at ventriloquism than acting. And I knew that if I didn't, like capitalize on it, and something that I was genuinely truly good at, because you can be a good actor. And, you know, never make it or never kind of make an impact. I figured if I if I'm just good at ventriloquism, this is something that not many people do. And I really, really enjoy the art form that then I might as well go for. I think it's just like being passionate about anything. There's, there's different vocal techniques that you can do to warm up. Like usually I'll breathe in deep so I can have my airflow coming from my diaphragm out through my mouth, because a lot of times what's happens on stage is I'll get to throaty. And sometimes I'll run out of air, if that makes sense. So I'll be on stage and I'll be telling a joke and it'll be and I have to like take a breath and like, you know, so it's really good to it's kind of like being an opera singer. Yeah, yeah, you have to like have all your air come out or else like so I never done longer than a 30 minutes set. And I see even Trilok was do like an hour and a half and I'm like, Man, that's that's really hard to do like a whole hour and a half because you just have to have constant lung control and, and breath control as far as being a performer. I've heard of interreligious not speaking to anybody, the entire day up until their performance because they just want to save all of their vocal energy.

Nick VinZant 9:43

Why is it so much harder just because of the way that you have to speak kind of from the diaphragm or is it just it's because

Jack Williams 9:49

you're, it's because I feel like it's more concentrated. Like I honestly am, like, completely out of breath like, you know, just exhausted After a show.

Nick VinZant 10:01

So one thing I've noticed I've never like, looked at a ventriloquist, right? Their mouth always seems to be just a little bit open, does your mouth have to be just a little bit open? Or is that like, this is just what happens.

Jack Williams 10:13

If I feel like if your mouth completely closed, it'll just, you know, kind of just be like mumbling sounds, but I feel like the true ventriloquist can get their mouth to be slightly open, but it looks still a little natural. You see a lot of ventriloquist, like smiling and they'll be like, Hey, how's it going? It's good to see, you know, and, and it just doesn't look natural. Because they just they just have this big smile on the whole time. So I tried to like mix it up, I'll try to like have a neutral face. And I think something's funny. If the public thinks me funny. I'll kind of like smile while they're talking. And, you know, just just try and try to keep the face as natural as possible.

Nick VinZant 10:53

So give me some leeway on this question. Because I think I'm gonna phrase it terribly and possibly. offensively. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to ask the question, right. So like, is being a ventriloquist? I'll be dramatic and easier path to stardom, so to speak. Then not like, right, like if you're going to be a comedian. It's really hard to be a comedian. But it's maybe a little bit easier if you're a ventriloquist comedian?

Jack Williams 11:19

I would say no, I would say yes, and no, because the reason I think it's harder is because you have to dedicate first to being a ventriloquist, right? So if you're going down the road of being a ventriloquist, and you're not fully dedicated, and there might be the possibility that you might not be good, either. And that's, that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian, in my opinion, because it has a way worse, like, Oh, like this guy. Like, it's just even explaining it to people that don't know, like, what I do when I tell them. It's like, I feel like I almost constantly, like just get this Rand like this judgment, I'd say, you know, and that's, that's something that doesn't happen when you're a comedian. When you're like, Oh, I'm, I'm a stand up. Everyone's like, Oh, that's cool. Like what clubs you perform that when I'm like, oh, like I'm a ventriloquist. They're like, oh, like, do you like, talk to your dolls? When no one's around? You don't? I mean, it just comes with its different territory. It comes with a whole set of different questions and judgments. Why do

Nick VinZant 12:39

you think that is that people kind of are like, that reaction you talked about? Like, oh, you're a ventriloquist. Like, why do you? Where do you think that comes from?

Jack Williams 12:48

Um, I think it comes from the whole doll thing. I think that a lot of people don't like dolls. And they, they're afraid of them. And some people just don't like that. Also, I would say, some people think I would say it's kind of more of like a, like a second rate kind of thing of comedy, as far as like, prop comedy. So some people are like, Oh, you're using a prop. It's kind of like a crutch on stage. You're not just, you know, going out there being yourself.

Nick VinZant 13:26

How important is the puppet? Great. Like, do you put a lot of thought into like, Okay, I want it to look like this. It has to be like, this size. Like, is there anything that has to be specific about the puppet?

Jack Williams 13:38

Dude, I would say that, you know, it's, it's a weird a lot of ensure liquids get way too wrapped up in the puppet, and they'll forget that you actually have to be funny, and you'll have to be good at manipulating the puppet and, and, you know, like making it look alive. Because you could take a sock, you could take your hand, you could take an orange and make it look real, if you're if you're just a good ventriloquist. So the puppet itself is important, but I'd say the more important aspect is being funny and just being a good ventriloquist, because there has been ventriloquists. Some of the best ventriloquist has have used very, like not expensive things very like low end things and made them look really real. Like one of my favorite ventriloquist Nina Conti. She's a ventriloquist in the UK, and she uses a little monkey puppet that was like a souvenir at like the Rainforest Cafe. Like, as far as just buying a good character. That's something that's really difficult to do for ventriloquism because it's it ranges like there's some puppets like that are okay that you could get for Like 30 bucks and then there's ventriloquist dummies that are $6,000 that a lot of in Sherlock was had and they're more like collectors. They have a collection of in Sherlock was dummies that are 1000s of dollars that I wish I could have. But they have them because that's that's just what they do. They just collect ventriloquist dummies.

Nick VinZant 15:23

But there's there's not. There's not anything in the dummy or the puppet that helps you, right? It's not like this thing. $6,000 because it's got super modulate and voice deconstruction, right? It's, there's nothing the dummy or the puppet is actually doing, right?

Jack Williams 15:41

No, exactly. The having a very complex ventriloquist dummy won't really help you as a ventriloquist. It can help the performance aspect of it if you want something with more animations. Like there are some really cool ventriloquist dummies that have moving eyes raising eyebrows. There's ones that stick out their tongue. There's ones that can make their upper lip go up. And those are the ones that that the most expensive and Sherlock was dummy that I've heard of, was like, 30 5000s. Yeah, because because of the rarity of it, and because of how many animations it can do like its nose can light up red. It's like hair can go up. There's some crazy ventriloquist dummies. The coolest like, dummy place that I've been to this like sounds funny, like dummy place. But the coolest place I've been to is, is there's a ventriloquist dummy Museum in in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And it's just like, right, well, let's see little buildings. And I mean, if you had a phobia of like dolls, that this would be like your absolute nightmare. If you went there, and you you walk in, and there's just probably like 50 or 60 dummies just sitting in chairs just kind of like lifeless, and they all have so much history. So if you're a ventriloquist, you can take your puppet there and kind of put it to rest as people would say, because it's it has all the dummies and all their former ventriloquists that used to use them all kind of laid out. So they have like, Jeff Dunham's old puppets, Terry faders. All all the ventriloquist and then there are some genuinely scary dummies. And I don't really get scared of puppets that easily, but there are some dummies that are from I want to say, either the 17 or 1800s that have real human teeth and real human hair. And that that is where I'm like, Okay, that is kind of that is pretty scary.

Nick VinZant 17:59

Yeah, right, I can kind of see why people have a certain like, we'd like, you know, we love to, like anthropomorphize animals. But if it's too much like us, then it's like, ooh, we kind of don't like that. Exactly. And that's

Jack Williams 18:13

where I think that sometimes the ventriloquist dummy is a little bit more beneficial than a puppet in some instances, like I noticed when when I was performing at clubs more when I would use, say, like a bird puppet to tell human jokes, it wouldn't they wouldn't land as well as if I had like the human puppet telling the same jokes, because people are like, they can see that it's a human, if that makes sense. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's more root there. It's more relatable. That's like a guy up there. You know, they kind of forget that it's fake a little bit.

Nick VinZant 18:50

So, I guess two part question, can you make a full time living as a ventriloquist? I'm assuming the answer is yes, because there's pretty famous ventriloquist. But let's say you're a level comedian. Does an A level comedian is he going to get or she going to get paid more than an A level ventriloquist?

Jack Williams 19:09

Um, he like that really depends. I would say it's definitely if you're a good ventriloquist, like an A level of influence that's really good and has good routines. It's definitely easier than an A level comedian just because it's, it's just a more of a unique act, I would say. Like, I remember I was doing a bigger show at the Hollywood Palladium a long time ago, like probably like three or four years ago. And I would just do all these open mics to prepare and you know, some of them were good, and then others were just like dead silence. Or if I would get I be happy if I got like one of the comedians in the audience, because it's basically all comedians watching other comics go up and perform. And so when they see like a guy with a doll on stage, they're like, Wow, this is like this. is different, you know, I've never seen this before ever.

Nick VinZant 20:03

Yeah, that would be brutal audience, right? It's every because you're filled, it's filled with people who don't want to laugh. 100% Yeah, you know, it's kind of like that. He's not better.

Jack Williams 20:12

And yeah, and a lot of the times, I almost felt like, Man, I don't know, what's better practice because if, as far as a stand up goes, it's less of an act and more of being genuine on stage. I sort of tried to be genuine. But what I do is, is an act. It is like acting, if that makes sense. But yeah, yeah, they end up is being real and being kind of like raw on stage, where if people can see those funny sides of you, were I, a lot of the times I was like, Man, I could have just practiced this at home, and I would have felt less sad.

Nick VinZant 20:52

Are you ready for some listener submitted harder questions? Yes. What is the hardest word letter or sound to say? What is the easiest,

Jack Williams 21:01

it's different? For a lot of insurer liquids. A lot of info liquids struggle with the letter B. I feel like I do well, with the letter B, like basketball. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the bees with ds. So you would say gasket doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B, in your brain. So you're saying the letter D, but thinking B, and you putting it together, and you're like basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, you know, you kind of just think of the letter that so that's what I'm doing is I'm thinking of the letter for me. I don't really think that B's that hard. But I think the letter P is really hard. For pee, you're replacing it with a tee. Like the hardest word for me is people because it's two Ps. People, he people. And it's I really do not I try to never write that word in my act. A easy word would be words that you just words that you don't have to like, move, move your lips for. So you could say something like, like, son, you don't have to move your lips for son just son, you know. You could say hand hand you know you don't like it's just any word that you don't have to really move your lips for because you have to move your lips for like letters like W, B, P and M.

Nick VinZant 22:42

And then I'm imagining that when you sit down and you write your act, so to speak, like your ventriloquist are purposely ooh, I don't want to say that word like I need to. I can't say people have to say, individuals or something like that, like, well, you specifically kind of right around it.

Jack Williams 22:59

For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I won't realize it because I won't be doing the ventriloquism until after. And I because and then I will realize, oh, I use people too much. I got I got to replace that word, or I use everyone too much got to replace that word.

Nick VinZant 23:19

Who's the Michael Jordan of ventriloquism? Ooh,

Jack Williams 23:23

alive or dead? Like give us both? Okay, um, I would say probably the like, the best of all time would just be Edgar Bergen just because he kind of revolutionized it. As far as a in vaudeville era, he he was mostly known for radio and a lot of people thought that his puppet Charlie McCarthy was a real person on the radio until he started doing shows, and live performances and it would come in and then that was kind of the joke. They, you know, they saw that he had a ventriloquist dummy. And so he kind of revolutionized the INS as far as like doing it in vaudeville, and performing in like the live circuit in in his Yeah, ventriloquism was around before stand up, I would say because he you know, he did that whole vaudeville era type of stuff. So I would say him for sure. Just because he was in movies. He was huge in the 50s. Um, but as far as alive today, I would say for it's it's definitely Jeff Dunham as far as somebody who has just reached that like insane level of fame of events that a ventriloquist has never reached before. Like Jeff Jones more famous than any ventriloquist ever, and I think that he kind of downplays it anytime he does an interview or anything like that, but he definitely no one's ever been been like that mainstream. I think he has like seven comedy specials. And I remember I was watching a show at the Greek theatre. And it's just his performance ability to be able to like get through. Like I said, that long stretch of time without getting vocal. You winded is just insane. Do people

Nick VinZant 25:21

ever try to call you out? Like I saw your mouth move?

Jack Williams 25:27

Um, I would say not really, because I don't really mess up that much. I would say I and that's kind of cocky of me to say, but I've never had a moment where I've really like moved my lips, I would be able to say like, if I if I really, if I did really mess up, I'd be like, Yeah, I definitely, you know, could see my lips moving. But I tried to make it so it's, you know, I You can't I'd say that's the whole that's the whole goal. I yeah, I've never had anyone call me out for something. Like, when I was a kid. Yeah. When I was like, doing those shows, there would be like judges. They'd be like, Oh, you could work on your, your your lip movement. And that just like stuck with me. I was like, this will never happen again.

Nick VinZant 26:17

Do you ever accidentally do it in real life? Like not to mess with people, but it's just purely an accident?

Jack Williams 26:23

Honestly, no, I never for sure. I've never accidentally done it. And every time I'm doing ventriloquism, I It's like a muscle like, you know, you're doing it.

Nick VinZant 26:33

Yeah, that makes sense. Right? What is people like if you do it on the street, right, when somebody is not suspecting it, what's generally people's kind of reaction?

Jack Williams 26:42

Oh, they're like, generally just like, confused, sometimes scared. And, you know, I have the video that really blew up on Tik Tok that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him. And when I told him, I was just like a video and I was a ventriloquist. Then he understood, so a lot of people don't really understand it. But then other people just kind of think that there's something wrong with me.

Nick VinZant 27:14

Has anybody ever thought that like the dummy was real?

Jack Williams 27:17

No, no one's ever thought the domain was real. I have had, I have had people say like, wow, like, I really forgot that you were with a puppet. Like, I really thought that, you know, that puppet. Like, I thought I forgot that you were controlling it. So they kind of it's that whole illusion kind of thing as far as like the magic aspect of it. And I have had an old woman come up to me after a show. And say, I you know, I loved your act. I couldn't watch you the whole time because I'm have a fear of dolls. So I haven't looked down the whole time. But I heard everything you said. And it was funny.

Nick VinZant 27:55

It's an it's a good compliment. But an interesting compliment, right? Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything else you think we missed? Or what's what's coming up next for you?

Jack Williams 28:06

I'm about to hit a million followers on Tiktok. So that's exciting. Really excited about that. It's been an insane journey. And it's definitely really, really helped my career as far as you know, just accelerating it forward, and all that stuff. And yeah, just just writing a whole new act right now getting back into the swing of performing live shows, again, now that COVID restrictions are lifted in LA, as far as in most comedy clubs, some are still a little bit. You still have to have a vaccine. But you know, that just goes without saying for a comedy club, at least. Yeah, so I'm excited to get back into the swing of things and just start performing again.

Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil

Do you know what’s in the food you’re eating? Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil does and the answers might surprise you. We talk chemistry, nutrition, GMO crops and what you really need for a healthy diet. Then, we countdown a special food inspired Top 5.

Dr. Christopher McNeil: 01:18ish

Pointless: 33:05ish

Top 5: 44:50ish

https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdkEWXF1/ (Dr. McNeil Social Media)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mcneil-7895ba94/ (Dr. Christopher McNeil Linkedin)

Interview with Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we take a look at the chemistry behind your food.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 0:20

So none of the food that we're eating is remotely similar to what it was 10,000 years ago. And when it comes to nutrition work, there's a lot of noise. And there's a lot of interesting studies going on. But at the end of the day, we know what works and it's so it's actually not food that I'm not worried about. It's more you know, the supplement aisle.

Nick VinZant 0:44

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't really know what's in the food that I'm eating. I look at the label, right. But beyond the calorie number, I don't really have any idea what all of that stuff means. Our first guest, though, does. This is food chemist, Dr. Christopher McNeil. You know, the biggest question that I have, in my mind, right talking to a food chemist is I get an apple, is that still an apple or have we done stuff with it and messed with it so much, that it's not really what it was 50 years or 100 years ago, or whatever.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 1:33

So none of the food that we're eating is remotely similar to what it was 10,000 years ago. And that comes with a lot of benefits. And it also does come with some drawbacks. And we're starting to see that with the way that our food system impacts the environment. But I think the one thing I really want to emphasize is the food that we eat is sick. That doesn't mean it's healthy, it doesn't mean that it's always the right thing that we should be eating. But food is always going to be generally safe. The risk of eating the food that we eat is low, as long as we're eating a diversified diet, not relying too much on heavily processed foods. But at the end of the day, humanity wouldn't be where we're at if it wasn't for the advancements in agriculture and technology that makes sure that we have food on the table every day.

Nick VinZant 2:28

What's the difference between healthy versus Safe, safe,

Dr. Christopher McNeil 2:34

has a lot more to do with like the actual risks of disease or toxicity or poison, or all those different types of things that you could think of, in terms of healthy healthy is a lot more about the relationship that we have with food. More about lifestyle choices that are associated with eating and dietary habits. 99.99% of food in the grocery store is not gonna harm you when you eat it. But if you eat an entire diet that consists entirely of hot pockets, that's not a healthy relationship to food, or specifically, like processed foods,

Nick VinZant 3:14

you know, so when you look at food chemistry, are you checking? Are you looking at the chemistry of the food itself? Are you studying more how it reacts with us?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 3:22

Most of my work has been the chemistry of the food itself. There are people who study, you know how food is interacting with either animals or after you eat it or I know people who are actually studying how, you know, pesticides and things on farms are affecting farm workers like there. There's different approaches to food chemistry. And it's kind of a large umbrella. The umbrella of food chemistry is is it associated with food? And is it chemistry?

Nick VinZant 3:56

Is there Okay, so we kind of talked about the idea of like, look, food isn't necessarily good or bad. But are there certain things from like a chemistry perspective that like okay, this is better than this thing? Right? Like these nutrients? This chemical makeup is better for bodies than this one is?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 4:16

That's a that's a hard question to answer just because there are so many chemical components of all the food that we eat. I mean, every everything that gives food flavor or texture, or, I mean, the entire world is just made up of chemicals interacting like that is the human body is just a bunch of it's just a lot of chemical reactions happening all at once that give us life. So due to the complexity of food, it's hard to say you know, these things are better than other things. When you look at the dietary recommendations that come out every five years, you know, the reason why they say try to eat whole grains try to eat a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables is because Those are the things that we know are good. And we can try to dive into the chemistry and have a really reductionist approach to try to narrow down on, like, why it's good for us. But at the end of the day, it's just such a complex system that getting it down to that very, like granule level is almost impossible. Because the chemistry of life itself is so complex,

Nick VinZant 5:28

to help me kind of understand is that kind of, I'm just gonna make something up, right? I have no idea if this is correct or not, right? Like, we know, Apples are good, but we don't know. They're good, because of like the riboflavin, or magnesium and Apple is that kind of how it works. We just know that they're good. So you should eat those.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 5:46

We have a general sense of, you know, the essential vitamins and nutrients. The like, we know, we need a certain amount of certain vitamins, we know we need a certain amount of certain minerals. We know that the fiber from apples is really good. Why it's good. That's a much more complex question to answer. And like research has shown, okay, it's good for the microbiome. So your gut bacteria really likes the fiber because they can ferment it. And you know, they create things that are beneficial for us. But those interactions are all really complex. We know that vitamin C is necessary to prevent scurvy. But we don't necessarily know what a trace amount of some flavonoid, which is going to give it a flavor. Like we don't necessarily know what that trace amount of a single flavonoid is going to do.

Nick VinZant 6:44

So this is kind of like the, you know, the armchair quarterback kind of thing is like, what do you mean, we don't know why, like, why don't we know why I feel I feel as a person who knows nothing about this, that you guys should have figured this out already.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 6:59

So we have 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of chemical reactions going on all at the same time, we've been able to identify like, a lot of very interesting and important and essential chemical reactions that make life happen. But the way that science works, and in order to really, definitively say this is causing this, you have to really reduce down all the variables. And sometimes you just can't reduce every variable out of an experiment. Because that's just not the way that food really exists. Food doesn't exist in this really, like super narrow, focused world. Food is all about complexity and chemical reactions and things like that. Is Does that make sense? It

Nick VinZant 7:55

to me, it kind of sounds like the idea of like, alright, I can't keep using Apples, but we're going to feed these people oranges. And we found that after we fed them oranges, they were happier. But it might also have been because they got good news at work. So we can't like directly attributed to the oranges. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 8:14

Imagine trying to set up a study where you control every single thing that an entire population eats for, like 15 years. So when it comes down to studying the long term effects of things, we just have really crappy models that we can use.

Nick VinZant 8:32

Does it change the way that you look at food, though? Like really knowing what's in it?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 8:37

Yes, and no. Um, I'd say the main thing that has changed is, I appreciate food a lot more. Because a lot of people are very removed from the food that they eat, they don't see how it's produced. They don't know where it's coming from. They don't know. They just don't know how the food system works. So having like a really intimate view on like, this is how food gets to your table, makes it care a lot more about it. But at the same time I talk to any dietician dieticians will always say like, if you're really restricting what you're eating, you're not really having a fulfilling healthy relationship with food. So I still eat junk food. A lot of the time I will say working in my field has made me more vegetarian than I was before. Like I eat meat, maybe once a month now and I really focus on on vegetarian foods that's also just being in the Bay Area, like the Bay Area, you're just inevitably going to become a vegetarian. But when I don't feel like cooking or eating an entire bag of soy chicken nuggets because it's fun. Food should be fun.

Nick VinZant 9:58

It is true, right? Like, how do we find the balance between eating stuff that maybe is not the best? versus kind of just living this super strict lifestyle?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 10:09

I feel like Michael Pollan put it really well in a lot of his writing on food where it's no eat food, mostly plants. And not too much.

Nick VinZant 10:20

That I mean, what is it about like the plants, though? And that more vegetarian diet that seems to kind of go with us a little bit better? Is there something in the chemistry of it?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 10:30

That's a very complicated question. It's never been easier for us to over eat, especially when it comes to meat. Because meat used to be really hard to get. And you only, you know, ate meat on special occasions. When it comes to eating mostly plants, we know that there's a lot of benefits from eating, you know, high fiber, very nutrient dense vegetables. And that is partially just because we're not eating as much fat. We're not especially saturated fat, and we're getting a lot more fiber in our diet, which is going to make us feel full, is going to keep calories down just generally, because we're not going to over eat as much. And it's just going to add more variety to our diet. Because eating, you know, meat and potatoes every day. We know that that's not healthy. So it's all about the variety, in the end, making sure that it's a very diverse diet, and that you're just not eating the same thing constantly.

Nick VinZant 11:42

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. Our food companies trying to kill us.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 11:53

No, they're not trying to kill you at all. Honestly, this is sort of a narrative that people have latched on to, because it takes the responsibility off of having own personal habits that are positive or negative. Food companies are trying to make food that tastes good at a price that people will buy it at. It's the habit of actually buying and preparing and eating healthy food, that is going to determine if your diet is healthy or not. People care a lot more about price than about health. And by keeping prices low, you know, that does mean that a lot of people are eating unhealthy food. But food companies really only care about making food that people will buy and eat.

Nick VinZant 12:53

This person writes, I always hear that processed foods are bad, but what about what about them makes them bad? Like what is it about the processing that isn't good or isn't as desirable?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 13:07

It depends on the food, how it's being processed. Not all processed food is bad. Frozen vegetables are often really great forms of processed food. Because they're really high nutrients, they're high in fiber. Really, the the processes that make processed food unhealthy is when you're removing things like bran from whole grains, because that's where a lot of the fiber and nutrients are. It's the things that end up being lost throughout the process. So it's losing fiber through aggressive processing of grain, or there's vitamin and mineral loss during you know, some types of canning processes or things like that, where, at the end of the day, there's still vitamins and nutrients in there. But it's just not the same as if you had the fresh option.

Nick VinZant 14:06

So it's not what they're putting into it. It's what they're taking out of it.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 14:11

In my opinion, yes, it's more about what's lost along the way than anything that's added to it. Preservatives are not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on how often you're eating them, what products they're in and things like that.

Nick VinZant 14:28

Even if you look at like the worst foods have today. Are they still better than when we ate like, week old raw meat 100 years ago, 100,000 years ago, right? Like is, are we still ultimately eating better than we were a long time ago?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 14:46

I love this question. But it's really hard to answer without defining what you mean by better. Are they more nutrient dense? Are we getting more calories from it, then we would have you know 100,000 years ago, yes. 100%. Like, would would the food of today sustain you longer than, you know, prehistoric, like, foods 100% There's a reason my lifespans are two or three times longer today than they were even 100 or 200 years ago. If you're talking about variety, like, there used to be a lot more varieties of all the different foods that we eat, and that has been reduced a lot over the last 150 years.

Nick VinZant 15:37

I did see something once that like, basically all bananas are the same banana

Dr. Christopher McNeil 15:43

in North America and Europe. Yes. If you go to the tropics, or go to South America, Africa, lots of Asia, they actually have more varieties of banana and the varieties of bananas that we eat in North America and Europe. Totally monoculture? Like, there's pretty much just one kind that you're gonna see. But my favorite type of banana is called an apple banana, you can find it in Hawaii. And all throughout the tropics, it just tastes better it it's a little bit more sour, a little bit more tart.

Nick VinZant 16:18

Yeah, I'm just picturing my grocery store, like they got all the different things and then bananas. Um, how often does like when in your studies, like how often does the nutritional label actually match up to what's inside of the food,

Dr. Christopher McNeil 16:32

it's not far off most of the time. But the way that most nutrition facts are, the way that nutrition labels are generally made today, is actually often using computer software, using validated databases, so the computer software is actually doing the calculations for you. It's not like, every single time Campbell's Soup wants to release a new soup line, they're not performing all the calculations, and like actually putting, like the food in a bomb calorimeter, which is going to measure the number of calories, like that's not what's happening anymore. But those databases are very comprehensive. And the calculations are pretty well established for how they're produced. But there are there is regulation on how close they have to be.

Nick VinZant 17:20

I guess the these are kind of all the same question in the sense that they're all like, along the same lines of is this bad for me? GMOs?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 17:30

No, I wouldn't they GMOs don't pose health risks to humans. And it's, at the end of the day, it comes more down to how they're being used, why they were developed, how they're being used, this is going to open up a huge can of worms. But long story short, GMOs are safe, they are safe. You can talk about disagreeing with the business model, you can talk about disagreeing with Pat having a patent for a seed, you can talk about that. But in terms of actual safety, for human consumption, they are safe.

Nick VinZant 18:12

So when we talk about genetically modified like, what is that? What are they doing to it, I know they're modifying the genes. But that doesn't mean anything to me necessarily

Dr. Christopher McNeil 18:24

modifying the genetic code of the plant itself, you can either add genes from other plants, or, you know, intentionally remove specific genes to like, turn on or turn off different attributes. The thing is, we've been selectively breeding plants for 10s of 1000s of years to get the desired qualities that we want. This is actually a much more targeted and specific way to do it. So it actually gives us more control, as opposed to just like hoping for random things to happen over the course of many, many generations, we can actually just choose what we want to have happen now. And I think that's actually a great approach to dealing with a lot of issues. I will say the applications of genetic modification, you know, you could talk a lot about the ethics or morality of it, but at the end of the day, I the technology itself is not evil. How people choose to use it you may disagree with and you can argue the ethics of that, but the the ability to introduce genes into a crop is not inherently good or bad.

Nick VinZant 19:47

Is it kind of like the idea that we used to do this with crops and the farmer would basically just pick the best crop? And now we just do it with a guy in a lab coat?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 19:56

Yeah, just to add, you know, when I see the knowledge GMO Project labels on things I get really frustrated. Because if you look at the actual list of approved GMOs in the United States, it's not a long list. It is not a long list, and they are slapping that Non GMO Project label on absolutely fucking everything. Sorry for language. But you know, that's they're not being used nearly as much as people think they are, you know, yes, you'll see it, you'll see GMO corn, but most of that corn is not going to human consumption, most of its being fed to cattle, and you'll see a lot of GMO soybeans. Once again, most of that is going to either making vegetable oil or feeding cattle, most of those aren't ending up in the human food supply at all. So I get I get frustrated with the conversation, just because most of the time, it's not ending up in our food supply anyway, or if it is ending up in very small amounts, in terms of like soybean oil that's coming from genetically modified plants, all of the genetic material and all of the protein that would have been like coded for five genetic material, all that's gone at that point, it's just the fat from the soybean. So any actual trace of anything that was genetically modified is entirely gone. So I it comes down to people just generally not understanding what it means or what being genetically modified. So anyway,

Nick VinZant 21:43

speaking of rants, how do you feel about fake sugar? And I'm Nikki never pronounce this word as as parted. You know what I'm talking about right? As? How do you say it and ascertain?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 21:58

Too much sugar is bad for you, we know that we know that. We can replace sugar in our food with other compounds that either have fewer or no calories. It's definitely a Pick Your Battles situation, aspartame. From a chemical breakdown perspective, when it's being digested, it isn't tirely broken down through processes that our bodies designed to handle to get rid of things like our bodies are really complex and are really good at handling things that we eat. Aspartame, when it's used in like a diet soda is used in such a small concentration. And it's actually in terms of aspartame in particular, is actually the most studied food additive, ever. Like there are more studies about aspartame than anything else that's ever been added to food. And time and time again, the United States, Europe, China, every major food agency in the world has said that the way that it's being used is safe. The thing that's probably worse for you is the caffeine from drinking the you know 50 diet sodas that would be required to hit any sort of like dangerous level of aspartame in your diet. We know that having too much like simple sugar in our diet in the form of sucrose or glucose or fructose, we know that those simple carbohydrates are not healthy for us in large quantities, we have options to replace it with other things. And if you're worried about the amount of sugar in your diet, try different artificial sweeteners. When I talked about aspartame on Tik Tok not too long ago, a lot of people said, hey, when I drink it, I get headaches. And you know, that is something that has been reported. There's not any real scientific evidence for why that happens. And when people have tried to explore it, they can't really identify really the mechanism that might be

Nick VinZant 24:06

causing that. Is it difficult for you to go grocery shopping? And I think what this person means is like, Are you always looking at the labels and being like, oh, red dye 40 Hmm.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 24:19

I don't fixate too much on any individual component of what I'm buying. I just don't buy a lot of starbursts, or I do eat too many cheeses. I will say like, the one thing that I shouldn't eat as much as I do is like, I'll go through like two boxes of cheese. It's a week, but that's a personal choice. And I'm, like, totally cool with that.

Nick VinZant 24:42

But there isn't something is there anything that you would look at and be like from a chemistry perspective in the sense that like, oh, that that's kinda Oh, that's a little bit. A little bit nasty.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 24:54

Really the only food that I'm like that with is energy drinks. supplements, there's a lot of supplements that you find in the store, like food actually go through a lot more strict regulatory processes, then supplements do. So it's actually not food that I'm not worried about. It's more, you know, the supplement aisle that, like raises concerns in my eyes

Nick VinZant 25:19

is that because of this, the basic ingredients are because we don't actually know what's in it.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 25:25

The regulatory processes are a lot different. A lot of it is, it's easier to get a supplement approved than a food. So any sort of new food additive has to go through a pretty extensive approval process. A lot of people will point to the fact that the United States has a generally recognized, generally recognized as safe classification, say, Oh, it's so easy to get any new food item prove it, it's a lot more rigorous than people think it is. It's a lot more difficult to get new foods on the market than people think it is. And supplements just don't go through the same regulation process. And it's a lot easier to get something on the market.

Nick VinZant 26:06

I keep feeling like this should have all been more complicated, right? Like there should be some kind of nasty boogeyman in our food. But it really kind of just sounds like from a chemistry perspective, like, just don't eat like an idiot, and you'll probably be fine.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 26:20

100% Don't be an idiot is something that a lot of people still need to learn. Uh, no, it's just

Nick VinZant 26:26

why do you why do you think that then we there's such a big deal about like, You got to eat blueberries? Like, why do you think that there's all this stuff, we're constantly being told, like, you got to eat this, don't eat this, your heart will blow up.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 26:40

As opposed to medication where like, you'll only be exposed to it if you're like prescribed specific medication, we have to eat every day, like we have, like food is something that everyone has to have a relationship on some degree. Because if not, you will starve to death and die. So because it's such an intimate part of our day to day life, because if you think about it, everything that you eat, is going like inside of you and is in theory becoming a part of you. So like eating itself is a pretty intimate act, even if people don't necessarily think of it that way. And we live in a world where people aren't necessarily, you know, dying of preventable disease all the time, always I know, we're in the middle of a pandemic. And this is kind of the exception. But most of the time, like, the things that were killing people 150 years ago, like a lot of diseases, were just we were not really facing those anymore. Now we're dealing with things like chronic disease, and we're trying to find out like, how can we prevent things like heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and we know that there are beneficial qualities to certain things. But kind of, as I said earlier, with the approach to narrowing down really specifically on, you know, a specific component of food like focusing on you said, riboflavin, we know that that's not a really great model for what people are actually doing on a day to day basis. So you're seeing results from the person studies that haven't really been observed in the real world, you'll see data from you know, some rodent model showed that something gives you cancer. But we haven't seen that same result in all the other studies or an actual day to day life. So there is sort of a sensationalism that goes on in the way that nutrition is being reported. And also, there's a lot of people who are profiting off of selling people supplements or blueberries, or there are financial incentives to to be sensational about your conversations about about food. And that's why every other year, we hear that a glass of wine is good for your heart versus terrible for your heart and back and forth.

Nick VinZant 29:14

That's so true, right? And I get that in the sense that like, we can repeat this thing in a lab with a mouse. And we found that this is bad for you. But then when you go into the real world, we can't really repeat that ever, because there's just too many variables is kind of all that stuff then besides eat healthy and you'll probably be okay. Is it a lie a

Dr. Christopher McNeil 29:36

lot is a strong word. I mean,

Nick VinZant 29:39

a misunderstanding.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 29:42

A misunderstanding I think is a better way to put it, um, where science is always evolving. We're constantly learning new things and we're constantly integrating new ideas into you know, the general body of knowledge. And when it comes to nutrition work, there's a lot of noise And there's a lot of interesting studies going on. But at the end of the day, we know what works. And it's a high fiber diet, like a high like, low, lower sodium, lower saturated fat, high fiber, you know, lots of routes and vegetables, lots of whole grains, like, those are the things that we know work, because those are the things that have been observed. Anybody telling you, you can or can't eat any, like specific thing is generally, either they have misunderstood the science, or they're trying to get you to misunderstand the science.

Nick VinZant 30:38

That kind of answers this other question I? And maybe if it doesn't, and if you feel like we've answered it, then skip it. If we feel like we haven't, then don't? Are we making too big of a deal? Or not a big enough deal of our food?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 30:52

Cut? It depends on what you mean. Um, I would, I would love if people made a bigger deal out of knowing where their food came from. Like I would love people made a much bigger deal of like, knowing who grew that strawberry, to connect more with food and make that a big deal. When it comes to, are we making too big of a deal? Over like the nitty gritty, like, don't eat that because it has Blanc in it. 100% I think we're making way too big of a deal of that.

Nick VinZant 31:29

That's all the questions that I have, is there anything that you think we missed, or kind of like what's coming up next for you?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 31:35

You know, being here in the Bay Area. There's just a lot of really interesting ideas. And people are doing really cool things with food. The center that I work at, at the University that I'm at now actually studies, trends in food innovation and entrepreneurial ventures within the food space. I live in Silicon Valley. I come from a family that Tech has been very good to my family. So now my space is more focused on what are sort of the radical interesting ideas within food and agriculture. That we need to develop new technologies for how can we apply technologies in a new and interesting way to either produce new food or produce food in a better way. So I'm no longer locked away in a chemistry lab. I talked to a lot more business people than I ever had before in my entire life. But it's really interesting seeing what innovative and creative things people are doing within food and agriculture, and how we can incorporate technology better in the entire system.

Intimacy Coach Dee Siren

As an Intimacy Coach and Sex Educator Dee Siren is unique. She specializes in non-traditional relationships; helping polyamorous couples, married swingers and sex workers improve their dating lives. We talk intimacy, commitment, open relationships and finding yourself. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Words We Always Mispell.

Dee Siren: 01:36ish

Pointless: 22:24ish

Top 5: 36:53ish

http://www.thelovesiren.com/ (Dee Siren Website)

www.Twitter.com/MrsSiren  (Dee Siren Twitter)

www.Instagram.com/the.lovesiren (Dee Siren Instagram)

Interview with Intimacy Coach Dee Siren

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, intimacy tips, and the top five words we always EMI, S, S P E, ll misspell,

Dee Siren 0:26

we just consider sexual or physical touch being intimate, when really all these other things mean so much to us. And when it comes to females love language means everything you know you are the until you build a strong foundation of who you are behind the mask you put on every day. Swing is actually a lot more open and a lot less controlled. Because there's a lot of different people that you have to deal with. I and names like I am super bad with names. So people ask me to work with so and so. And I'll be like, I don't think so. And then I'll see it's like, oh, yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. I did work with that. PETA,

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest helps people become more intimate. And she specializes in non traditional relationships. polyamorous couples, Swingers, people with open marriages. This is intimacy coach and sex educator, de Seiren. When people struggle with intimacy, like what are they? Where does that really usually come from? Like, what's the main source of the problem?

Dee Siren 1:44

intimacy in the first place is misunderstood. There are so many different forms of intimacy. There are, you know, there's experiential intimacy, meaning that you've experienced something with someone else you've, you know, gone on a vacation, you've spent time with them, you've you've built a relationship through experiences, you have a life with them. But that, but experiences in general are intimate, and you really just don't realize how many people you actually have intimate relationships with, which, in turn, makes us not as connected to other people, because we just don't realize how many people were actually connected to you. And then there's intellectual intimacy, intellectual intimacy is you and I having this conversation, you're learning something for me, I'm learning something from you. And that's building a connection with each other. With that being the case, you know, you have so many intimate relationships with so many different people. But we just consider sexual or physical touch, being intimate. When really with our life partners, all these other things mean so much to us. And when it comes to females, love language means everything. So you have to figure out with your partner, what's their love language? You know, what do they What does means the most to them? Is it the touch? Or is it that you do the dishes? Is it that you ask them how their day was? You know, is it the words of affirmation that you're telling them they get it did a good job, you know, so it's all about, you know, paying attention to the person that you're with at the time and really showing that you are connected to them?

Nick VinZant 3:31

Let's get controversial. And for the ease of conversation, let's talk about a heterosexual relationship man and a woman who's the problem, usually the man or the woman,

Dee Siren 3:41

I think the problem is, is that you think there's a problem. You know, really, there's not always a problem. You know, in life, we are given struggle and struggle, builds character, struggled builds upon us so that we can actually grow and evolve in our lives rather than holding us back. It actually helps us to learn from each other, it helps us to grow in our relationships, it helps us to maybe even look outside of our relationship for something more. And the fact is, is that I think the big problem in relationships in this is any kind of relationship is that we look for one person to really help us through anything, and we expect that person to be able to do everything for us, you know, are they able to be our best friend? Are they able to be our sexual soulmate? Are they able to take care of our children? Are they able to, you know, help us with dinner at night? Are they the best cook and the best housewife and the best this and is my husband the best? Why would you expect one person to be able to do everything for you? And honestly, it's just about mindset because in the end, you are the only person that sees the world the way you see it. No one else sees it the way you see it and they never will And you know, honestly, when it comes to like jealousy, that's a factor. It's a big factor in people's relationships. So these are these ideas of jealousy. And it comes up because we're insecure,

Nick VinZant 5:12

when when people kind of come to you, or they generally complaining about and complaining is a relative word, right? Is their issue usually, like we're not intimate enough in the bedroom, or we're not intimate enough to kind of adjust in everyday life

Dee Siren 5:25

more than anything, people come to me as individuals. I do have couples that come to me trying to work on their relationships, but it's more coming to me as an individual to figure out what is their what are their issues, because when it comes down to it, it all starts with you, you know, you are the until you build a strong foundation of who you are behind the mask you put on every day, and realize that you know, all the shit that you have piled upon you and made into your ego and your personality, and see that that actually is still stuck. Because people get stuck in old patterns of behavior, old thought processes, and they just repeat themselves, it's just becomes the next person is just gonna have the same crap that you had with your girlfriend in high school, because you're still stuck in that same thought process, you're just putting it onto another person. And until you break the cycle that you're still connected to, it doesn't change.

Nick VinZant 6:32

I've always been fascinated by this idea, right? I heard this before one time where somebody was talking about like, in the past, there was a tiger, a tiger that would you know, kill us. And in reality, now, we're still having that same kind of fearful reaction to things. But there is no tiger. It's just a bad meeting.

Dee Siren 6:51

Exactly. Like we all live. And that's just, you know, it's super survival instinct. We still live with that survival instinct every day. That you know, humans still think we we have to be in a state of fear.

Nick VinZant 7:08

When you know, when it comes to kind of intimacy, are there certain things that people can do to kind of get that back to increase their intimacy?

Dee Siren 7:18

Honestly, the biggest thing to increase your intimacy is communication, like start talking to each other. You know, I think so many people stop talking to each other, and stop having deep conversations, there comes a point where life becomes monotonous, you have a routine, you get into the routine, especially after you have children. But you also have to realize that you are still a person and your spouse is still a person and you should still have a life outside of those children. Like, it's important to, you know, realize that your intimate relationship with your spouse is just as important as that relationship you have with your kids. Because once you guys stop talking to each other and stop, and just forgetting, like, why did you like each other in the first place? And are you still friends? Because a lot of people think, Okay, I'm in this relationship. I've committed to this relationship. I've said, Okay, I'm married, and society puts a lot of pressure on us. I have differences of opinions on relationships than a lot of people do. Most of what I do, I help people that are in non traditional relationships. Because I believe in non traditional relationships, I've been in Iran been in a non traditional ways relationship for the majority of my life. Where I am polyamorous. I do believe in a relationship where you don't have to be monogamous. I don't think it's natural for humans to be monogamous. We're not penguins. And you know, and it's okay to open your life up to other people. I'm super not for limiting love in your life. Like, I think this world needs a lot more love than we are allowed to show to other people. And I think it's super healthy to show love to other people. However, I'm not against monogamous relationships, either, like most people around me, my family, and they all have those relationships. And that's totally fine.

Nick VinZant 9:13

Do you think that problems with intimacy have gotten worse necessarily? Or do we just hear about them more like people are more comfortable talking about it, as opposed to like, No, I think people have actually gotten worse and worse at this.

Dee Siren 9:26

I don't think they're worse, to be honest. Because I talked to people in all different generations. It's just that I think now people are realizing that for one thing, you don't have to stay in a bad relationship. It's not it's not required. Because it's okay to not be in that shitty relationship forever. You know, that's not the end of the world to leave that relationship and try something different. You can also continue to have good, a good relationship with the other person that you aren't, quote, married to or living with or whatever. You can still have a good relationship with that person and not actually live with that person. So I think it's just more being open minded. I think it's more about talking and just being able to express how you feel, I do think that there's a big change that women can express themselves where before they weren't able to, because I think a lot of times, it comes back to that ownership idea that we weren't allowed to be able to express ourselves, we weren't allowed to be able to say, this sucks, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. We had to just stay in the relationship we were in, because that's what we chose to do, or that's what we were told to do are placed in that relationship for so long, we had relationships that were, you know, chosen for us. And it's like, okay, this is who you're married and get over it.

Nick VinZant 10:47

So like, how did you how did you get into this? How did you start intimacy coaching?

Dee Siren 10:51

Well, I mean, I've been in a relationship forever, like, my husband and I started dating when we were 19. And, you know, we've been together, what, 28 years. And, of that time, like, I would say, the majority of it, we have been, well, we I about 10 of that we were in a monogamous relationship, completely vanilla, regular relationship. And then we decided to be in an open relationship and tried, we were Swingers, and we did that kind of thing. And then we went into the adult industry, which made it more, I would say more controlled. Swinging is actually a lot more open and a lot less controlled. Because it's a lot of different people that you have to deal with. And a lot of different relationships, it's hard to be in that type of situation, because you're dealing with so many different personalities and having to get along with so many different kinds of people. And then, being in the adult industry, it's much more of a controlled environment where you work with different types of people, but you're not necessarily building a an emotional relationship or an emotional intimacy with those people. It's more experiential intimacy. It's more physical and sexual intimacy, but you're not really building any kind of emotional intimacy with those people were swinging, you could build emotional intimacy with those people. The more people you're around, the more people that you open yourself up to you start realizing that there are so many different people in the world, and you really just build different connections. And when it comes down to it, it's just all about connection. And we've really put a lot of boundaries on sexuality. And it's just natural, like sexual sex and sexuality are just a basic instinct,

Nick VinZant 13:04

even though there is kind of like the moralistic stand of that right, which comes from religion in which monogamous relationships, sex is only for the purpose of procreation, that kind of thing. It sounds like a polyamorous relationship would be great and great for everybody. But ultimately, would it work?

Dee Siren 13:23

I think the limitation comes with the insecurity. And the insecurity comes with the background of yourself, can you handle being worth more than one person? And that all depends on what happens then who teaches you that being with another person is a bad thing? Are you taught that it's bad to look at other people? Have you been shamed for looking at other people? Have you been taught that? Oh, no. Like, if it's not a man and a woman together forever, then that's not a family. So yeah, that it doesn't always work. But it all just depends on your mindset. Are you capable of handling the situation where you can take care of all these different people in your life? If you're not then you shouldn't do it?

Nick VinZant 14:12

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is awakening your orgasmic body?

Dee Siren 14:21

So I am a super multiple orgasmic person. And I have different levels. The first level is just I'm a squirter. So the first level is just really squatting is very basic. And that happens, I can do it to myself. It can be done even without like, any kind of vaginal like, stimulation. I can do it from like deep kissing. I could do it from biting my neck. I can do it all different ways. And it's really like lubrication. It's like natural lubrication without having like any having to use any kind of other lubrication. So that one's really basic to me. It's still orgasmic. But it's super basic, then I get into a stage that is more like, which does require penetration. It's more like I don't know, animalistic, I guess you would say that's when the noises start happening. And it's definitely more that way. I would take what that saying to be more a third stage for me personally, because that is when I get a if if the person can continue to go because it's, it does get to a point, I could do it with toys, and I can do it with some people. But most people are already finished by the time that I get there. It is definitely more of an out of body experience. I do kind of disassociate at that point. Because it's like an internal massage to me, once I get to like my third level of orgasm. I don't squirt i It's not like that it's much more deep internalized, I kind of go off into my own little world. I look like I'm probably asleep, or dead. It's just much more like I'm super relaxed, absolutely relaxed, you can kind of do whatever, because I'm so relaxed to the point where it's just like, wow, like, I'm just I don't know, I get to the point where it's just super. I don't know, like I said, it's like a deep massage. But internally. So

Nick VinZant 16:32

does everybody have that?

Dee Siren 16:34

I think that if you allowed yourself to get to that you Yes, I think if you allowed yourself to let go to that stage that every but everyone could get to that point. But it does allow it does require you to let go

Nick VinZant 16:50

demand heaven?

Dee Siren 16:52

I don't think so. I don't think so you work

Nick VinZant 16:55

on dating in the adult industry? How is dating in the industry different than dating and normal, normal? You know what word I mean? Right? Like fill in the appropriate word there. But

Dee Siren 17:06

most people need adult and she date each other. Because when you're in the adult industry, you have to understand that sex is part of your job. And that we don't when you have this job, you have to be comfortable with the fact that you're gonna have sex with other people. I mean, it's just part of the job. Like, I don't have a we don't have as an adult industry workers, we don't have an emotional connection to every person that we work with. Like that's like I said, that's the difference between swinging and being in the adult industry. We don't have that connection, we don't build that connection. You know, there's a lot of people that I've worked with that, honestly, a whole bunch that I don't even remember them. Like, I always tell them, I can probably remember your penis much more than your face. Because like, I didn't even see their face. Like, I mean, that's not really where my focus was. I and names like I am super bad with names though. People asked me to work with so and so. And I'll be like, I don't think so. And then I'll see. Like, oh, yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. I did work with that fetus. So like, Yeah, I mean, the girls, I normally remember all the girls. Because like, we build friendships like it's, and that's the thing like i There are guys, I remember because I've actually sat down and talk to them. So that's like different if I actually sit and talk to you, but if you're on set and you're literally just going on set, you're working, doing your work and leaving. You don't really have time to sit and talk. I mean, it's just a matter of like, okay, we're doing our work, we're getting paid, we're doing our job and going home like there's no building a relationship or friendship or anything like that. It's outside of that that we build friendships. So

Nick VinZant 19:03

this is either a ridiculous question or a brilliant follow up question. Who has like the most recognizable penis in the adult industry?

Dee Siren 19:12

Um, well, I probably the ones with the bigger ones, like the biggest, probably Mandingo and like dread chain diesel those guys are ridiculously big. And they don't it's hard to miss when you if you know they are and you've seen them, it's like whoa, that can't be real. It doesn't look real. So

Nick VinZant 19:42

that's you know, we've talked about most of the other questions that we got this so that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dee Siren 19:53

I'm honestly I'm just continue to work. I read a lot. That's all I do have I have like, my bookshelf, if you can see my books, my bookshelf of books and building upon my new life coaching website, it's my Karma Sutra, calm. Karma Sutra is the name of the company. And Kama Sutra is the Love rules. And that is like audio thing like that's old all Sanskrit, from, you know, the Indian culture is that the Kama Sutra is, they've always people connect it to sex like positions. But if you actually read the original Kama Sutra, which is back there in that bookshelf, it it's actually the roles of love. So there's a lot more to it than just positions that just happens to be like depictions of it. And but you know, my website is actually a play on those those words. And it's actually Karma Sutra, which is because sutra just means rules. And karma, of course, is, most people think of karma as like, oh, that's your karma, like, it's gonna come back to get you. But karma actually means action. So it's actually action rolls, because I just believe that all, you know, we talk a lot, everybody just talks and talks and talks. And that's all everybody ever does, these days is just talk about what they're going to do. But it's all about your action, like love does not, you can say you love something, but until you act on it, and show what you're actually going to do. And show that you actually love somebody and do the things that, you know, find out what their love languages are and show them that you actually love them, then it doesn't matter. So until you act on those things until you actually take the steps to improve yourself. And until you, you know, show that it's something you want to change or until you take the steps to actually follow all those roles, then. What's the point?

Curling Olympian Chris Plys

Curler Chris Plys has spent decades preparing for this moment. He’s about to go for gold in the Beijing Olympics. We talk curling strategy, competing for Team USA and the last time he fell on the ice. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Olympic Sports.

Chris Plys: 01:09ish

Pointless: 30: 38ish

Top 5: 44:40ish

https://twitter.com/chrisplys (Chris Plys Twitter)

@TeamShuster (Team Shuster Twitter)

https://twitter.com/usacurl (USA Curling Twitter)

Interview with Curling Olympian Chris Plys

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, curling, and the best of the Olympics,

Chris Plys 0:21

you know, every team that said this Olympics like, I truly think this will be the hardest Olympics ever. A lot of times when we're when we're throwing a rock to the middle, we're aiming like four or five, six feet on a different trajectory. So when you put that turn on the rock, yeah, it's very similar to chess in that way, where you're kind of trying to plan your moves out several shots in advance,

Nick VinZant 0:41

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because I am fascinated, fascinated by curling. And our first guest is one of the best curlers in the world. He's representing the United States in Beijing. This is Olympic curler, Chris plies right now leading up to the Olympics, like what is your training look like?

Chris Plys 1:13

Yeah, it's been a little bit challenging with with COVID. We're lucky enough to have a curling club here in Duluth, Minnesota that allows us to have private access to the club. And we have some icemakers and stuff that give us good conditions. So typically, we spend a lot more time as a team and a lot more time traveling, playing different tournaments, calm like bonspiels and curling, just the rules being what they are with, if you test positive, you're ineligible to play, you know, half the game right now is just trying to stay healthy. So been spending a lot more time on the fat tire bike, and, you know, hiking around with the dogs and all that kind of stuff. So,

Nick VinZant 1:50

I mean, looking at it on TV, right, and you know what that's worth but like, how physically demanding is it at your level?

Chris Plys 1:58

Yeah, curling is like one of those sports where, you know, you watch it on TV, and it doesn't seem like it's that physical, you know, of a sport, a couple things that you have to keep in mind is our tournaments are very long. So like heading into Beijing, I will been fortunate to qualify in two different disciplines. So I'll be like one of the busiest guys in China. And so our, I'll be there pretty much competing for like almost three weeks. And our games for mixed doubles will last about an hour and a half. And our men's games can last two and a half to three hours. But you're talking like being on the ice for anywhere from three to six hours a day. So it takes its toll on it like sweeping is very physical. You know, just like throwing rocks and stuff. That's not something that's gonna like beat your body up and stuff all that bunch, but the sweeping in the recovery time, and then yeah, just the mental side of it of being trying to compete at a high level for such a long period of time is pretty exhausting.

Nick VinZant 2:56

Is it more of a mental thing than it is a physical thing it is

Chris Plys 3:02

I would say it's about 5050 as the week goes on, especially when the stakes are so high like an Olympic Games or a world championship or something like that. That definitely takes its toll. But you know, as the years have gone, as the years have gone by and getting older and putting all this abuse on my knees and shoulders and stuff, the just the repetition over all the years of you know, getting into that like position that we throw the rock in. And then also the sweeping, I mean, it just it BTF mptf over years, and I've played other sports and stuff and I would say that Curling is especially at a high level is just as physically demanding isn't another source of the replay.

Nick VinZant 3:39

You know, you guys won last time last Olympics. Is it easier to kind of common in without those expectations? Or is it more difficult because now everybody's looking at you.

Chris Plys 3:51

I joined this team after the Olympics when one other team when one of those players retired. But I mean, the expectations and stuff are definitely still there. You know, the other three guys were there and yeah, I mean, try not to think about it too much. You know, it's it's an honor to like have those kind of expectations put on us but you know, as long as we can go there and and put a performance down that we're proud of. I think all of us will be happy leaving Beijing

Nick VinZant 4:16

I knew I was gonna say I knew this like I should really know. Nope, no, like no, I can't do it as like, I knew I was gonna say something.

Chris Plys 4:24

Oh, dude, I've been at so many. I've had so many like tournaments and stuff where I've been, you know, introduced as an Olympic gold medalist and sometimes in front of a lot of people and you just sit there and just wave just Yeah, sounds good. Now it's all good.

Nick VinZant 4:41

So then like when you when we're going on to a team that is filled with Olympic gold medalist. What is that like? Joining Metallica after they've already been Metallica Right?

Chris Plys 4:52

Um, you know, it's pretty cool. Like I I've played with all these guys minus John Lane center, who's our lead? I've played with all before Early in my career won a World Junior Championship with Matt. And I went to World University Games with Schuster back in the day and and then yeah, we had just competed against each other. We ran into each other in a lot of finals and stuff over the years. And so yeah, it was just a cool experience, it was like, it's you don't get that opportunity every day to join a, somebody that's coming off of an Olympic gold normally those players will, you know, at least play one more year and kind of carry out it, you know, you get a lot of cool opportunities when you win an Olympic gold. So I was fortunate enough to get to reap some of those benefits. And it's been a lot of fun.

Nick VinZant 5:34

When you go about it, right, like watching it on TV, like Okay, throw the thing try to get next to the center, somebody is in your way, knock the thing out of the way, is like, but he's there, how much strategy goes into it.

Chris Plys 5:47

I mean, strategy is the name of the game for curling. You know, it's, it's hard to see on TV. And it's one thing that I wish they would incorporate a little bit more of like an overhead view when it comes to curling. Because a lot of times when we're when we're throwing a rock to the middle, we're aiming like four or five, six feet on a different trajectory. So when you put that turn on the rock, and it's you know, not to get super complicated, but like hockey, ice is completely flat. And like figure skating ice, that kind of stuffs completely flat curling ice is flat, but it also has, we call it pebble. So there's little bumps, that they spray onto the top of the ice that allows the rock, which has a little texture on the bottom, when you put a turn on it, that texture on the bottom of the rock grabs those little pebbles and will pull it one direction or the other depending on what what turn, you know, counterclockwise or clockwise you put on the rock. So it's hard to tell when you're watching TV that there's that much stuff going on

Nick VinZant 6:43

the columns like reading a green in golf. Exactly,

Chris Plys 6:47

yeah, exactly like that. And so like, the slower you go, the slower the rock is moving forward, the more is kind of a tendency to curl. So just like a putting green, like you're playing a break. So if it's curling six feet, you know, if you want, if you have just like drop it in the hole type weight on your putt, you know, you're gonna have to play a bigger break. And you know, he's talking about guys like putting it through the through the break. Same with curling, you throw it harder, you're gonna take that break out of the equation, and the rock will travel straighter.

Nick VinZant 7:15

Is it pretty reliable? Like throughout the match? Right? Like, I know, I throw it here, I know it's gonna do this? Or does the ice kind of change throughout?

Chris Plys 7:24

Yeah, um, you know, at the high level, the ice makers are just as good as we are as players. So we're really fortunate to get to play on some really great playing surfaces. But as the as the game goes on, and on just those pebbles will kind of wear down and get flatter and flatter, which will cause the ISE to maybe tend to be a little bit slower, or curl a little bit more.

Nick VinZant 7:48

I never thought of while it's called curling. And then when you mentioned that oh, it kind of this all makes sense to me now. Yeah, it curls into the thing. Yeah. So like, how did you? I guess why are you good at it?

Chris Plys 8:03

A lot of practice, man. Just a lot of practice spent? Our I mean, 10s of 1000s hours 10s of 1000s of rocks. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's it's a game of repetition.

Nick VinZant 8:12

But to kind of follow up on that, right? Is there something though, unique about you, where if I went out and put in or anybody went in put in the same amount of time? Am I going to be just as good?

Chris Plys 8:26

I think it's kind of like that in every sport. You know, there definitely is some, like just some people just come to it more naturally. I think of it a little bit like golf. Like there's some guys that can go pick up a golf club and just, they just naturally have that ability to be to start at a little bit higher level or escalate their skill at a high a faster pace, where you see some guys that have been grinding out on the golf course for 25 years, and they're still shooting 90, you know, I mean, I think that's kind of stuff still, it finds its way into curling as well. You know, I've been lucky I seem to kind of have a little bit of that, you know, God given talent, if you will, where it just kind of came easy at a young age and, and came to it. So

Nick VinZant 9:07

it's not everything like you were tested by the doctor and you have the best depth perception. Anybody who has ever lived or anything like that?

Chris Plys 9:16

No, no, it's um, you know, I just was lucky enough to be born in a cold place that had a really nice curling club and and got into it at a young age. And here we are.

Nick VinZant 9:27

So bottom line is being an Olympian takes no talent.

Chris Plys 9:33

Yeah, exactly.

Nick VinZant 9:35

I guess when did you kind of make like, Oh, I could do this

Chris Plys 9:39

camera like 15 Maybe somewhere in that age. I was playing in a state championship and we didn't win. But I was picked up as an alternate by a bunch of guys. So juniors, goes up till you're 21 years old. So it's 21 and younger. So there's a bunch of guys that were like 1920 21 and they brought me along as well. turnout. And I learned a lot that year. And I was really fortunate to have a bunch of guys that had been around the block time or two that took me under their wing and, and kind of taught me what they knew. And so my, you know, a lot of times in curling, it takes a long time to learn all the ins and outs and stuff. And I was very fortunate to have people that, you know, saw something in me and are willing to kind of give me their secrets, if you will, and, and get me ahead of the curve. And yeah, so it, I was very lucky, very, very lucky in that, in that sense,

Nick VinZant 10:30

who's the more important person in each kind of round the person throwing it or the people sweeping it.

Chris Plys 10:35

So Curling is made up like on men's. So it's four guys in a team. So you have a lead a second, a third and a skip. My position is third. But every guy on the team will throw two rocks every end we call it but like end inning, you know, kind of same thing. And your position just is basically saying what order you're throwing it. So our lead throws the first two second throws the second to third, throw the third two, and then the skip is the guy at the other end. That's kind of the strategist of the team. And so he kind of calls the game and does the strategy side of it. And he's the guy that when you're watching on TV, you'll hear yelling and doing all that kind of stuff most of the time.

Nick VinZant 11:15

I always wondered who that was? Yep. Because I always see the three people it's like, well, I know there's four. Where's that fourth guy?

Chris Plys 11:22

Yep, the other guy. And he's kind of like our team captain, if you will. And so our team is led by John Schuster. He's our skip, and this will be his fifth Olympic games coming up in Beijing. So he's kind of the, you know, the Babe Ruth of USA curling, like, you know, I think, you know, I'm sure there's other names in the hat. But in my opinion, the greatest American curler of all time, certainly the most accomplished, and, yeah, so he's the guy that's kind of deciding what strategy what shot selection we should be playing. And then the yelling stems from, you know, him being at the other end, seeing that trajectory that that rock is coming in. And then communicating with the sweepers whether or not they have because sweeping will either will hold the rock straighter when they sweep it and it'll also carry it so like really great curlers are easily carrying a rock 1010 12 feet. So that yelling is coming from the sweepers yelling to the skip, you know where what kind of weight how fast that rock is traveling, so that he can decide, oh, okay, well, it's light, or it's heavy, you know, you know, the rocks moving too fast, it's moving too slow, this is what the trajectory is gonna be on. So sweep to, you know, keep it on this line, or don't sweep to let it curl more. So it's a lot of communications, the name of the game and curling, to be honest,

Nick VinZant 12:40

if I can follow up on that, so I kind of understand it, right. So it's kind of like, put this in terms of my brain understands, right, so the the thrower throws it. And then you guys are basically the sweepers are saying like, Oh, it's going fast. And then he says he thinks like, oh, it's going fast. Well then make it go. Right? Yep, exactly. You're essentially dictating that you're telling him how fast it's going. And then he's telling you what to do with it.

Chris Plys 13:03

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's the gist of it pretty much. So as much communication, I mean, the high end Curling is like there's just our team systems like we spend so much time on just as much time on our on our team systems as we do on practicing. And

Nick VinZant 13:19

for like when we look at the sweeping, right and put this in relative terms of when we're talking about Olympians, like can the person throwing it, just blow it and the sweepers can fix it. And do it for an Olympic level, right, like as good as you get, you kind of blew it for being really good. But the sweepers will fix it. So it doesn't matter.

Chris Plys 13:36

Yeah, I mean, if you're essentially, if you're heavy, like if you throw it too hard, there's really nothing that the SuperS can do, if you're a little bit light, they can fix that. And if you're a little bit like narrow, or you didn't quite get out far enough, like they can tend to fix those, but it's not something like if you just throw a meatball, and you know, there is times where the sweepers and nobody else can do anything for you.

Nick VinZant 14:01

But I would imagine that doesn't happen too much.

Chris Plys 14:03

We try not to let that happen. You know, not to keep talking like bringing golf into it. But we kind of talk about it like taking the sand trap or to play like you know, kind of giving, giving your team something that they can work with.

Nick VinZant 14:16

Like you don't have to be perfect. You just really can't blow it. Just be

Chris Plys 14:19

close, be close, and then let your teammates you know, make it perfect for you for sure.

Nick VinZant 14:24

When when you're thinking about the strategy, right? Are you anticipating what the other team is going to be doing? Like let's say, hey, we need to put one on the right side. But I bet they're going to block us. So let's throw it left, because they're going to throw it here in two throws. So do you have to be like a throw ahead of them?

Chris Plys 14:42

Yeah, it's very similar to chess in that way where you're kind of trying to plan your moves out several shots in advance. And there is kind of a bit of a script that that a lot of like innings will follow or ends will follow. But yeah, you're you're trying to plan your moves ahead of time and you're trying to anticipate what that other team is going to do. So that's where the strategy comes in. So you're trying to, you know, plan ahead and maybe take away a shot, or an idea that that team had they wanted to do for later in the end. So and that, and that's where curling, you know, over the years and years and years in games, like hundreds and 1000s of games that you play, you know, every game, you kind of learn something new. So you might have an idea of something that's worked in the past, and then somebody comes up with an idea to kind of stifle that, that strategy, and you have to kind of, you know, come up with something new to defend against that.

Nick VinZant 15:33

Is there any I mean, obviously, you wouldn't reveal what it is. But is there any time like bleeding into something big, like the Olympics, like we've got this new strategy, and nobody's ever seen it before? Like, we've got this new trick play in football? And wait till you meet US, Canada? Or is it anything, or is everybody kind of seen it all, by this time,

Chris Plys 15:51

I think for the most part, everyone's kind of seen it all, a lot of it is dependent on execution at this level. But there's certainly like our last Olympic trials that we played, there's a team from the US, led by Cory drop kin and, and they kind of had a strategy, you know, built for us for the Olympic trials and executed it very well, and just about beat us, you know, to go to the Olympics, and, and, you know, after that, first, they beat the best of three in the Olympic trial final, and they beat us in the first game, and we had to win the next two. But, I mean, after that first game that we lost, we had some very serious conversations in the locker room about how to defend against that, because this was something that we weren't used to seeing. And yeah, it was interesting, it hadn't happened in a lot. And in quite a while that I can remember where we really struggled with, you know, how to match up with someone strategically for you know, to answer what they were throwing at us.

Nick VinZant 16:43

What was it that they were doing? Like, is it something that a lay person would understand? Or is it um, this is high curling? Man,

Chris Plys 16:49

it I mean, it was essentially, you know, we like to be very offensive. So we like to have lots and lots of rocks in play. And they were just kind of taking that, that strip, like that strategy out of our, you know, out of our control. And yeah, I mean, looking back on it, it was kind of fun to it was, you know, to have that strategic battle in a big moment. And, yeah, made for a really exciting final.

Nick VinZant 17:14

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it. How do you slide like that?

Chris Plys 17:21

Okay, so um, so curling shoes have their two completely separate shoes. So our sliding shoe has, so this one has Teflon on the bottom. And so it's going to have some sort of slippery material, whether it's Teflon, which is the most common, or stainless steel, you'll see used ceramic used to be used back in the day a bit more. But this shoe is the what, what allows us to slide and then our other shoe is just a rubber. It's just super grippy. So when we're done throwing, typically, we'll put a rubber cover over this one so that we can, you know, walk on the ice and not be sliding all over the place. But yep, this is the this is the magic that goes into sliding around on the ice. It's just a quarter inch piece of Teflon.

Nick VinZant 18:05

This is my question, how far can you slide? Like, I'm always wondering, every time I see like, how far are they sliding when they do that?

Chris Plys 18:12

You know, before like warm ups and stuff. You'll see little kids doing it all the time. Because it's like, obviously, like when your little kid that's part of the fun of being out there. It's a sliding as far as he can. So I mean, you can slide to the other end of the ice, which is I mean, I should know how far that is. But it's 100 and some feet. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Nick VinZant 18:29

Are you serious? Yeah. So

Chris Plys 18:31

it's, uh, I mean, typically, during, like, during a curling game, you have to release before a certain point. It's called the hog line. So typically, we're not sliding a whole lot further past that. Like we'll just stop our momentum and get up so we can be like involved in what's happening in the shot. But yeah, I mean, you can slide clear to the other end if you want.

Nick VinZant 18:51

Damn. This leads into another question. When is the last time you fell down on the ice? Oh, man.

Chris Plys 18:57

I mean, I've fallen a couple of times in practice just by like not being aware of my surroundings and tripping over a rock and going down and stuff but I took a good spill at the World Championships this last year, was sliding backwards and ran into the the sideboards and went right on my ass that was, thankfully, there was no fans because we are in a bubble. But if there was no event even more embarrassing,

Nick VinZant 19:18

not that's not on camera anywhere we can't find.

Chris Plys 19:22

It might be on there somewhere.

Nick VinZant 19:23

I sue. I remember that used to be a thing where like, if people at a restaurant dropped the glasses, like everybody would stop, like, does everybody in the arena know? Like all Chris just fell?

Chris Plys 19:34

Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, normally they won't make a big deal of what I'm there. So you'll definitely catch some flack from somebody after once you get into the locker room or something.

Nick VinZant 19:45

We kind of answered this question already. But I think we did. How many if we did it, but this person just writes What's with all the scrubbing.

Chris Plys 19:52

So essentially, you're just trying to put as much weight as much of your body weight as you can over the head of the broom or like the fabric part of the broom and then move as fast as you can. So typically we're sweeping on a normal shot, you're probably sweeping for 25 seconds or so. And then the other team was throw. So the name of the game for curling a lot of times is, you know, because it's you're exerting a lot of effort. And sweeping is man like, like, it's I played other sports and stuff, and you get into a, you know, a tennis match, and you're sweeping a ton, like it is physically exhausting, exerting that effort, and then getting ready to go again. And you're doing that over and over and over again. So like when we're training off ice for sweeping, it's a lot of interval training, because you're just trying to exert as much effort as you can, and then bring your heart rate back down, get ready to go again, and you know, you're doing that, you know, 40 5060 times a game.

Nick VinZant 20:44

I mean, it does look intense. I will say that, like, whoo, they're really sweeping. How good are you with a broom around the

Chris Plys 20:52

house? Oh, man, dude, like, back when I was in high school, I used to get so much crap from my friends. But I was just preparing myself for later in life of you know, being able to be really great at sweeping and cleaning and stuff. But yeah, I get I get my way around the house pretty well with a broom. You know, it's, I can handle that I can hold my own.

Nick VinZant 21:13

Like, look, you want to see somebody sweep up a kitchen, you know, hurler?

Chris Plys 21:16

Yeah, give me a call that you'll you'll be shocked at how clean your places.

Nick VinZant 21:21

Favorite piece of curling lingo?

Chris Plys 21:24

Huh? Um, it's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of times where curling can stand a little bit dirty. You know, talking about like, hitting it in the crotch or, or, you know, that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of times my friends that aren't super familiar with curling will hear hear us say something during the game? Like, what the hell are you guys even talking about? Like, sounds like you turn the if you weren't watching the TV, like you think you're watching something? You know, not safe for work?

Nick VinZant 21:55

Is there trash talk and curling? You know, there is a

Chris Plys 21:58

bid typically depends on how well you know, you know, the other team, like we have some teams around the world that we've played tons of times, and, you know, our good buddies off the ice and stuff. And so typically, the trash talk is happening more. You know, in good fun. They call it a gentleman sport. So there isn't a whole lot of, you know, trash talking opponents. You know, it's definitely happened, you know, there's definitely been times where you might think a guy is doing something that is a little bit cheap or something like that. And you might call him out and it might get a little bit, a little bit feisty. But other than that, it's it's pretty tame.

Nick VinZant 22:36

But you couldn't like the other person's getting ready to throw championship match, like walk up and be like, don't miss it left, Steve.

Chris Plys 22:45

I mean, you you certainly could, but I think you would be you'd be run out of the game pretty quickly. If that became a habit, this is

Nick VinZant 22:55

this is my personal opinion, that Curling is probably the best Olympic sport, or at least one of the most interesting Olympic sports to watch for the Winter Olympics. Like have you noticed an increase in attention?

Chris Plys 23:08

I would say since 2006, the US team won a bronze medal. The Olympics are in Trino that year. And I would say that there's been a higher you know, viewership and stuff. Because I mean, like any any sport in the US are, you know, people like to cheer for, for winners and stuff. So I mean, that definitely brought you know, definitely brought a little bit more eyes to the to the sport. But I think over the years have gone by, you know, curling is every every time is one of the most watched sports, I think part of it is people are drawn into, you know, seeing something that that they don't quite understand and getting involved in the strategy. But one thing I think is really cool about Curling is we're all miked. So you can hear our conversations on the ice during all the games. So you get to know a little bit of like, just like also the personalities of the players that are on the ice. But also get like a really in depth insight as to like what's happening out there. You don't just have you know, a talking head that's out there explaining everything to you the whole time. And, you know, the Olympics is It's cool, man, you get people that are from Arkansas, and you get somebody from Hawaii and you get somebody from West Virginia and they're all they're all They're watching and you know, tweet net Yeah. And it's it's fun, it's a lot of fun.

Nick VinZant 24:26

Can you make a living straight off of it?

Chris Plys 24:28

It's getting there. You know, we have a couple of guys on our team that are pretty much professional curlers, I have a side you know, job myself, but it's definitely getting to that point. I when I was a younger kid, I kind of had dreams that it would be a little would be a little bit further along at this point. But I think I think there's kids that are coming up right now that will for sure be full time, you know, curlers, but yeah, we don't have the million dollar contracts that you're seeing in other sports for sure.

Nick VinZant 24:56

Is there like a country that is like whoo, This is this is the this is curling Mecca, and you know they're gonna be tough every year no matter what.

Chris Plys 25:06

Yeah, I mean, I mean, like Canada has over a million curlers. So I mean, they're they're always on you know a podium contender you know what that that landscape is changing on the on the upper end of curling I'd say that there's you know every team that's had this Olympics I I truly think this will be the hardest Olympics ever. You know, Scotland I believe is the number one team in the world right now. Sweden is always up there Canada obviously the switch the Swiss guys are fantastic you know ourselves Norway I mean like it really go through the list there's there's really good teams coming from all over the world right now which is just phenomenal for the sport you know, not be seeing the same the same faces and the same teams all the time and just goes to show you know, Canada for sure. I mean, the game was originated in Scotland, but Canada's you know, it's if you're not playing hockey, you're probably curling so yeah, I would say Canada's probably like the mecca of of curling in the world.

Nick VinZant 26:09

First question anyone asked to see when they find out you're a curler? Huh?

Chris Plys 26:14

Are you the thrower? The Are you the pusher? The sweeper? Probably?

Nick VinZant 26:19

Yeah, the guy or the other guy? Yeah, exactly.

Chris Plys 26:21

Yeah, like go and we're all of them. How has

Nick VinZant 26:25

how has curling your ability to curl helped you in other aspects of life? Like as a curling like, oh, man, I can I can play beanbag toss like,

Chris Plys 26:38

man, I've won some. I've won plenty of beers and some money at shuffleboard at the bar, that's for sure.

Nick VinZant 26:43

Oh, you got to be able to crush it. Right? Oh,

Chris Plys 26:45

yeah, you get that? You got that touchdown. You know, you got a little strategy in there. So yeah, we've had some had some free beers come that way. But other than that, man, like, it's especially in a in a something that you've given so much to your life to which that necessarily hasn't like financially compensated the amount of time that you put into it. It's taught me a ton about, you know, just commitment to something, finishing a, you know, seeing things through and, and, you know, just kind of doing, doing all the hard work when nobody's watching, which I think it translates well into other parts of life.

Nick VinZant 27:23

What not to kind of push you out the door, but like, what advice would you give to the next generation.

Chris Plys 27:30

You know, my slogan, my grandpa has been one of my, you know, biggest supporters over my career, you know, whether it was starting off playing little kids soccer to, you know, now go into the Olympics, and his motto has always been, you know, the most fun wins. And I always told myself that I would retire when I stopped having fun. And I think one thing that concerns me a little bit about watching these kids come up behind me is there's a lot of emphasis on, on results right away. You know, kids becoming a not just in curling, but becoming like specialized at a, you know, 12 years old. I don't think that's healthy at all. Like, I think you should be able to play as many sports as you can have as much fun with your friends as you can. And only play sports if you're, if you're loving it and having fun because the truth of the matter is very select few of you are going to end up you know, being a professional in that sport. And the best times the best memories that I have from curling, even playing at the top are the time like the fun, the fun things that we've that we've gotten to do. And you know, the memories of just dicking around with your teammates playing pranks on people and just the the Yeah, all the fun stories that have come from other years of travel.

Nick VinZant 28:49

Anything you think we missed or anything else you'd like to add?

Chris Plys 28:53

Oh, no, man, I appreciate you having me on. If anybody has any questions, though, you know, my social media stuff is pretty active. And I got no problem. If anybody has any questions or anything, you know, having a conversation with somebody and explaining them something or there's no dumb question. So fire away.

Nick VinZant 29:11

How much does the curler away actually? Is it thing is it heavy? Like the stuff I've never done it?

Chris Plys 29:17

Yeah, the stone so the stones weighed 42 pounds. And kind of one of the cool things about Curling is, again to go back to golf but the golf course Turnberry, in Scotland. There's an island off of that golf course called Ailsa Craig. And the majority of all the stones come from that one specific island. So they're made out of granite, and it's a special kind of granite that it just doesn't have a whole lot of impurities into it. So you can bang them around as much as you can and and they're not going to break on you, or any sort of any sort of thing like that. So yeah, it's kind of a kind of a cool thing about curling.

Nick VinZant 29:54

I wouldn't say that every time I've seen it on TV. I've always been like those look really nice. But yeah, That thing's made out of that looks really nice.

Chris Plys 30:02

And that show how it's made, actually did a, an F, or like a part of an episode on how they make curling rocks. And it's actually pretty interesting. You know, going and watching that. So if you have like, Go on YouTube or whatever and check out the How It's Made. Curling rock, you'll be able to see exactly how those things are all made.

Nice Guy Reformer Ashley Cox

Ashley Cox is the founder of the “Nice Guy Reform School”. Her goal is to help men find success in the boardroom and the bedroom by teaching them to stop being “nice” and start being themselves. We talk male empowerment, feminism and what women really want. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Food Groups.

Ashley Cox: 01:33ish

Pointless: 31:21ish

Top 5: 46:59ish

www.instagram.com/niceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School Instagram)

www.facebook.com/theniceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School Facebook)

www.tiktok.com/@niceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School TikTok)

https://go.oncehub.com/privateassessmentformen (Nice Guy Reform School Sessions)

Interview with Ashley Cox of the Nice Guy Reform School

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, nice guys and food groups,

Ashley Cox 0:20

I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned, like they feel like they're drowning, right. That's why it's nice guy reform school, these are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything. And they're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you. Because they see a leader, they see a man that they can follow, they see a man that knows who he is, they see a man who's in his power.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So have you ever wondered if you're being too nice. And that that might be the thing that's holding you back, our first guest says that absolutely can be the case. And that being too nice, can keep you from achieving personal and professional success. She's the founder of the nice guy reformed school. This is Ashley Cox, what's wrong with nice guys,

Ashley Cox 1:34

there's nothing wrong with nice guys, if they're happy. That's true. There are a lot of nice guys that are very, very unhappy because they're being nice, so as to get a different need met. Like they're being nice. So someone likes them, or they're being nice. So they're validated or accepted or respected or so they can get what they want. And they don't realize that they're inherently powerful and lovable just as they are without having to perform or provide value to be loved.

Nick VinZant 2:04

So when you say about like nice guy reformed school, like what are you doing?

Ashley Cox 2:08

So I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, could be a business partner, it could be an intimate partner, their wife, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned. Like they feel like they're drowning in it, right? They they're doing everything they can do. They're not taking any time for themselves. And they're not getting their meet their needs met and return. They're not being appreciated. They're not being valued. In fact, they're usually being usually getting disrespected, undervalued, underappreciated taken advantage of, so I'm helping them understand the difference between being in their power and loving themselves and how to get their needs met that way, versus getting their needs met by putting their power and their energy into something outside of themselves. So as to, you know, hope, hope they get a return back, and usually they don't,

Nick VinZant 2:58

are we talking about people who are just nice bye their personality? Or like that is my fundamental nature or people who have kind of become nice because of society?

Ashley Cox 3:09

Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with being a nice person, right. And when I say nice guy, it's in quotes, because I'm talking about essentially a fawn trauma response. So there's four trauma responses, fight flight, freeze, and fawn. And the fawn trauma response is referring to a people pleasing habit. It's a form of codependency. And I think there's a difference between being kind, and being nice. So sometimes the kindest thing I can do is be honest with you, right? Being nice is essentially being overly concerned with how you view me or how I'm impacting you to the point where I abandoned myself, if I'm doing it to receive validation, attention, love approval, respect from you,

Nick VinZant 3:53

where does this kind of been translate in people's lives.

Ashley Cox 3:57

So it looks like taking better care of other people than you do yourself. So a lot of times, what I'll see is men who say, I've done everything for this person, and I've gotten nothing in return. In fact, she hates me. And she's disrespectful. And so they're very confused around and as to why they're doing all these things for this person and this woman. And like I said, it could be business partner, too. It could be a company. And they are not seeing the ROI that they thought they were going to see. They gain weight, they become depressed, they become bitter. And then sometimes they'll go to therapy and they don't feel they they find that that doesn't help because that therapist will say something like, How was your week and it's just another week of kind of having an existential crisis. And so they don't really have the words for that, right. It's just it goes. It's deep. It's very, very deep in someone's system, when they've been living like this for a long time.

Nick VinZant 4:54

When do you think this kind of started? Are you seeing more of it now? Or

Ashley Cox 4:59

I think it started with this is just a theory. Really, when the feminist movement started, there have been three waves of feminism. And I would say it probably started with the second second wave. And it's just gotten worse with the third wave. I don't think there's anything wrong with the feminist movement. In fact, you know, when I was a kid, I had like a Rosie the Riveter poster in my room, I was, you know, very independent, I grew up in a household of all women. But I think what it's done is one, the patriarchy, I've taught men that they had to protect they had to provide sometimes even give their life. And they weren't allowed to cry about it. They weren't allowed to have feelings about it. So were, we expected them to be robots. And I think that's where a lot of men got their definition of what it meant to be a man as a societal programming of, if you protect, if you provide, if you give your life if you sacrifice if you're a martyr than and, and you don't cry about it, and you suck it up, then that means that that's what makes you a man. And unfortunately, the human body, the human brain, it doesn't work that way. We have emotions, and you either express them or repress them, those are the only two options. So men have essentially become these pressure cookers. And when we add the feminist movement on top of it, women are saying, you know, they're these men have become pressure cookers, and they've, they've traumatized some men have traumatized women because of it. So when they were repressing their emotions, is essentially built up built up, built up, and the man either exploded, and, and traumatized the woman through abuse or something like that, or he completely shut down. And then the woman didn't have a man in her life that was standing up for her. And so what ended up happening was, a lot of men in the world, they either blew up, or they shut down. And the women are saying, oh my gosh, now we're traumatized. Because the fathers are either absent, emotionally unavailable, shut down, you know, a pushover, they didn't protect me, they didn't provide for me, or maybe they provide it for me, but they didn't protect me. Or my father blew up, and you know, he was insane, or an alcoholic, or whatever it you know, whatever it is. And so then men really don't know what to do with this, because they don't a lot of men don't want to hurt women. And so the natural reaction is, okay, well, I don't want to be the, you know, abusive, alcoholic man. And I don't want to I don't want to hurt these women even even more. So I'm just going to kind of play small and play safe. And let's, you know, give the women what they want, and make the woman happy. And they've been through so much. And they think that that's what's going to get them love and respect and validation, and, you know, kind of run off into the sunset because they were the good guy, right? But that's not really what women want or need.

Nick VinZant 7:58

Is this. I mean, I feel like from friends of mine, and just seeing stuff in the media that the men have this kind of confusion about like, well, what am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be the man that my father was was like this tough? Aggressive take charge? Or am I supposed to be this sensitive, empathetic person? Do you? Is there any kind of confusion that you see amongst men about like, well, what am I supposed to be now?

Ashley Cox 8:23

100%. That's why I do what I do. I like to call it the third way, where you kind of we blend the two, right? Where you're not a pushover. You're in control, you're in charge of your life, and you have an open heart, you're emotionally healthy. You can process emotions in real time, you can hold space for her emotions. It doesn't mean you have to hook into them or emote with her. But when a man can't hold his own emotions, which we haven't really taught men or boys how to do. In fact, we've made it wrong for them to have emotions. And so when we increase a man's bandwidth to process and hold space for their own emotions, they can then be more present with a woman. She has her emotional experiences. They can be kind of like a tree like rooted, grounded, present, but a man who can't hold the space for his own emotions will react poorly to a woman who's emoting. And he, and he'll struggle to set boundaries with her. So it's one thing for her to have her emotional experience. It's another thing for her to have poor behavior. And so it want right because she's angry or something, right. So what we want is a woman who feel safe enough with a present powerful man to emote and tell him how she feels and what she wants without blaming him shaming him or abusing him. And so if the man can stay present and grounded, kind of that bad boy confident energy, right? If he can stay there in it with her, and present, but not hooking I'm not react and set healthy boundaries around her behavior. So I'm here I'm present, I'm not afraid, I'm confident, and I care. But what you're not going to do is attack me, blame me, shame me, abuse me. Because you're hurting.

Nick VinZant 10:14

It seems like a fairly simple thing, right, essentially stand up for yourself. But why do men have trouble doing that?

Ashley Cox 10:21

There are a lot of reasons. But I think one of the biggest ones is in the middle of an emotional situation. It's essentially, both people's enter children coming out. And so what ends up happening is the, the woman is kind of when she's emoting. And she's angry, and she's upset, he probably did something that triggered, you know, some sort of abandonment wound that she has, right, something from her father, it could have been something as simple as you know, he left the socks on the floor. And he's completely lost as to why she's so angry. It's never about the Sox. Right? It's about you know, maybe she doesn't feel cared for, maybe she doesn't feel seen, maybe she doesn't feel heard. And that could go all the way back to her childhood. And so her brain starts to make all of these connections. And then before you know it, she's three years old again. And she's acting like a three year old. And same thing for him. When she goes to that space. It's really easy for him to take it personally, because men really want to please women. I don't think women understand how men are literally designed to respond to us. They're, they're designed to respond to our emotions. They're designed to the to want to please us. And so when a woman is upset and angry, a man immediately, it's very easy for a man to immediately take it personally, and make and think, I must not be enough, then I've done all these things for you. Like how can I, I can't figure this out, right? And he starts to personalize it. And then what happens? He goes into, he gets upset. And then he turns into his three year old that wasn't enough or wasn't seen or wasn't heard. And, and so really, it's kind of like he's viewing her at that moment as almost like a mother figure who is trying to get accept acceptance, validation, respect, approval love from and just can't.

Nick VinZant 12:12

So how did you get started in this?

Ashley Cox 12:15

So it's a little bit of a long story. But for nine months, I was dating. And I, I went out on a date with a guy that owned a law firm who was about my age. And later in the, in the evening, we were lying on the couch, and I had my head on his chest, we were fully clothed. We had really just met a couple. I mean, we maybe this was like the second or third date. And he started crying. And I was like, Wait, are you? Are you okay? And then he before I knew it, he was in the fetal position. And I was, I was very confused to

Nick VinZant 12:54

what? Right? Like, look, I'm not the smoothest guy in the world, but I can I'm better than that. At least. But go,

Ashley Cox 13:04

it was crazy. It was crazy. And think about it. I mean, if you if you're the owner of a law firm, that's a lot of pressure, right? And I met something about me something about my energy was very calming for him, and it felt safe for him. And he essentially started to kind of open up. And all of his kind of repressed emotions started coming out. They weren't necessarily bad. It was just like he said, it felt like he was on a mushroom trip, then it happened again. And so I went into this kind of deep meditation for three weeks, I was walking around Houston, I would walk for five or six hours every day, just thinking, meditating, connecting. And what came to me was that the patriarchy has hurt men just as much as it's hurt women. I mean, having so much pressure on you, right is is not easy. We see it in a suicide rate. So the suicide rate is almost four for men is almost four times out of women. They have they have no outlet for their emotional expression. I want men to have spaces where they can go process safely, without feeling guilty about it or without feeling shame around it.

Nick VinZant 14:17

When people come to you what's usually like their main reason for coming back. Is there a specific area where they say I need help with this, or this is the difficulty that I'm having?

Ashley Cox 14:28

Typically, they are looking at divorce. They're separated or they're thinking about being getting separated, their wife isn't happy. Or this is their third or fourth toxic relationship, quote, unquote, toxic relationship, and they have no idea what's wrong and what's going on because they're doing everything by the book. They're checking all the boxes, right? That's why it's nice guy or form school. These are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything by the book and everything correctly. And They're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. And they were told, it would essentially, if you're here, just this kind of person, you know, be be this man and a woman will be lucky to be with you. Right? And they don't they find that that's not the case, they find that they get taken advantage of, like I said, disrespected, sometimes cheated on

Nick VinZant 15:26

just the kind of thing like in the professional environment, right? Like I remember in my former career, I said, Yes, and I would do everything. But then when I started saying, No, I suddenly got farther ahead in my life. It did, can this kind of translate into people's professional careers?

Ashley Cox 15:42

Absolutely. So my whole thing is, when a man, so what I like to do is have men heal from their toxic relationships, and use those same skills that they learn to catapult their business. So typically, my client will come in healing from a toxic relationship and a toxic relationship, very confused. And by the time he leaves, he feels 1,000% better, and he's anywhere between doubled, or, you know, kind of quadrupled his business, just by just by doing nothing other than mindset, work, healing, opening up setting boundaries. It's pretty incredible. There's absolutely a relationship.

Nick VinZant 16:25

This is one of those things where I could see playing devil's advocate, some people listening to this and be like, Oh, she's right on. And some people listen to me, like, What are you talking about?

Ashley Cox 16:34

I get that a lot. People said, Well, what's wrong with being nice? Like, screw you, lady. I get that. And my own partner said the same thing. We had a little a little debate about it. There's nothing wrong with being nice. When I say quote, unquote, nice guy, I'm talking about like, again, the fawn trauma response and talking about codependency. I'm talking about taking better care of other people than you do yourself. And we've made that socially acceptable for men. And so it can be confusing, because it's like, well, I've been told to be nice. I've been told not to be an asshole. I've been told to, you know, open doors for women, there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's about the intention, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because someone told you to do it. And because you think it's going to make you a good guy and make people like you? Or are you doing it because you're already in your power, you can set boundaries if you want to, and you're actively choosing to show up and serve and protect and provide because that's who you want to be. And it doesn't matter to you whether or not someone validates you or proves you, or even thanks you for doing what you're doing. This is just who you are as a person. And I think it's important to look at those intentions.

Nick VinZant 17:46

So I was looking at your website, and I saw some things I'm like, Okay, I don't even know what those words necessarily mean. So I'm just going to ask you, so quantum self mastery.

Ashley Cox 17:56

So that's the name of my company. And nice guy reform school is a program underneath that company. And I've called it that, because I do a lot of meditations with my clients. And we essentially access what I call the zero point field, which is where infinite possibilities exist. And it's where a lot of healing can happen. So in that space, there's no time. There's, there's kind of, it's like a field of nothingness and everything all at once. And I'll take men into these meditations where they meet their higher self, they meet their shadow self, they meet their inner child. And they do something called parts integration, which is, when we experienced trauma, we essentially break off like a piece, a little piece of ourselves kind of get stuck in time, because our brain can't process whatever it is, especially as children. And so we go back to that to the root of that behavior, that feeling, and we process it properly. But we have to go into the subconscious mind to do that. So 95% of your behavior is subconscious. And the subconscious mind there's something called the collective unconscious, the subconscious mind is related to the collective unconscious. It's kind of this field that that connects us all. And so when I go into my subconscious mind, I'm essentially accessing that quantum field, the part of life that we we can't see, but we know it's there. We can feel it. There's you know, lifeforce moving through us. There's infinite possibilities. You can look at nature, you can look at the abundance of the universe and see that there's something really wonderful at work. So we go into that place. And we access those emotions, those memories, those feelings, and we work through the root of those because and that place, time and space doesn't exist. So I go back to the point of injury, the point of creation, the point of, you know, wherever that belief started, that wasn't true. And I work through it there, which then has a direct effect on my present day, emotions. It kind of works forwards and backwards. So they'll come out of those meditations having kind of gone gone into retrieve a part of themselves that they didn't even know broke off when they were three, or five or six, whenever there was something as a child that there was, you know, guilt or shame around that they were rejected for. And they thought, oh my gosh, in order to survive in society, I have to get rid of this part of myself, or they just couldn't process the pain. So we go in, and we collect those pieces. And we get back to their soul group blueprint, which is kind of the part of the version of them that has no fear,

Nick VinZant 20:31

the shadow expert part. So what is a shadow expert,

Ashley Cox 20:36

it's essentially the parts of ourselves that we repress. So for example, if as a child, my parents didn't like it when I played, because maybe my parents were anxious, and they thought that they had to function or perform in a certain way in order to get by in life. And so they thought they were doing me a favor, by raising me up to be serious and work hard and not play and to focus. And so as a child in order to stay in connection with my parents, which is in my best interest. So it's in my best interest to essentially cut myself off from the parts of me that they can't handle or that isn't within their kind of scope, right. So if I get in trouble for playing or laughing, or whatever it is, and I realized I'm going to lose connection, I will essentially repress that part of myself, so as to stay in connection with them. Or let's say it was the first time i i saw my dad's porno magazine, when I was eight or something. And I had guilt and shame around it, I might repress that kind of memory, or that part of myself, in order to function as continue to function in their presence continue to function as an adult, right? Just kind of put it out of my mind. And so it's coming back into the fullest expression and fullest spectrum of yourself, and removing that guilt and shame. so as to allow everything to flow more smoothly in your life.

Nick VinZant 22:11

Can people take this too far? Right? Well, I'm supposed to be me. But what if internal, you is just an asshole. Because I don't feel like that's gonna get you very far, either, right?

Ashley Cox 22:21

My psychopath claws, if you are born without empathy, I'm not talking to you. There's professional help for that. But if you're a normal, you know, if you're a functioning human, and you have empathy, and you are mindful, and you have some asshole like tendencies, typically, anger is associated with anxiety or pain. And that is, again, that's a trauma response. So that's what I'm doing with people as I'm like, I would look at what's pissing that person off and get to the root of the anxiety, get to the root of the pain, go back to the memory, where that essentially was programmed. And I would make it conscious. So they can reprogram themselves, and not have that anxiety and not have that pain. The anger is essentially a secondary emotion. So I'm getting to I want to get to the primary emotion get underneath it.

Nick VinZant 23:10

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes. Can I get myself out of the friendzone? Yes. How?

Ashley Cox 23:26

Yeah. So that starts again, it starts with you actually detaching from needing something from that person and putting your your power outside of yourself, right. So if you're getting something, if you're getting rejection reflected to you, if you're getting kind of a lack of approval, a lack of validation, a lack of attractiveness, like someone being attracted to you, there's something in you again, it goes back to the guilt and shame, you're playing small. There's something in you that's actually rejecting yourself. And that person is an external mirror for where you're rejecting yourself. And you're not fully accepting yourself. You're not being you're, again, you're not being in the fullest expression of yourself. You're not in your power. And so what I love for men to do is be unapologetically honest and unapologetically themselves. And when I say honest, I don't mean like you were saying earlier, I don't mean to intentionally be an asshole to intentionally hurt people. And like, that's not what I mean. But I mean, don't say yes, if you don't mean yes, say yes. When you mean Yes. Say no. When you mean no, have reasons for things, have values, have standards have priorities, and to not lose yourself, because you want someone to like you. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you, because they see a leader. They see a man that they can follow. They see a man that knows who he is they see a man who's in his power, who again isn't outsourcing his self esteem.

Nick VinZant 24:52

I'll paraphrase this massively. But is that why there's always these memes of like white guys complain about women seem to be grabbing Between gravitate towards the man who treats them like crap.

Ashley Cox 25:04

It's essentially the closest we can come to someone who's completely honest with us. Unfortunately, and I know it sounds ironic because those guys lie as well. But it feels safer to know that this is a man who is willing to fight when he needs to fight, who's, who can be scrappy, who can be honest, unfortunately, a lot of those guys again, that's their own trauma response. That's their own way of protecting themselves, essentially. And I would say they're not actually emotionally available. So what we really want is a man who can do all of those things, who can lead who can fight who can protect us, who's like, kind of has that warrior energy, but who has an open heart. And his boundaries are healthy, they're not to keep people out, not just physically, but when he's emotionally available allows us to feel emotionally safe with him as well. And that's a great way to turn a woman on,

Nick VinZant 25:59

I get the idea, like, Why do some women gravitate towards assholes? Well, because they're showing their true personality as opposed to somebody who's pretending to be nice. And like, Well, what do they really like?

Ashley Cox 26:10

I do want to add something to that. So women, when they're ovulating, they're more attracted to your traditional alpha male. And when they're closer to their menstrual cycle, they are more attracted to your traditional like beta or nice guy, which is really fascinating. So it speaks to it speaks to this kind of evolutionary concept or kind of just human nature, we are attracted to men who, when we're ovulating, we're attracted to men who can protect and protect us and provide for us in the event that we have a child. And that is more valuable in our mind than a man who is compassionate because it's a survival skill.

Nick VinZant 26:48

Where are men generally to nice

Ashley Cox 26:51

when they are trying to gain a woman's approval, and attention?

Nick VinZant 26:56

What do women think about this?

Ashley Cox 26:59

At first, if the woman is the partner of someone who's enrolling, they can be skeptical and go, Oh, my gosh, Who is this lady? And what does she want. And by the end there, you know, they want to send me like thank you cards, because their man is showing up powerfully he setting boundaries, she can respect him, she can relax around him, she can express her emotions without triggering him, she can express her emotions without him blowing up or shutting down. He's just in his power more, that's the only way I can put it. He's taking her you know, I've clients that will haven't really poured into their wives in years. And all of a sudden, they take her to trips, you know, they take her to Italy or Sicily, or give her spa days and just under the understand the importance of helping her relax and making her feel cared for and safe and protected and provided for and all at the same time, you know, and be the importance of them being emotionally available at the same time. And for all that love to come from a place of wholeness and goodness. And without any sort of underlying intention of trying to get something from her. It's just because I love you and I want you to feel cared for I want to pour into you. And it helps her feel completely relaxed, completely safe to see her man in her power and actively choosing her for the first time sometimes in years. And that's something else that I did want to add in is the power of decision making the power of being decisive. Leadership is vulnerable. Right and you have to be decisive to be a leader, you may make the wrong choice. And that's okay. You have to be willing to take that fall. And women want to feel chosen. So a man choosing a woman is a form of leadership. And it's hot, it turns her on it makes her feel extremely loved. So for her man to go from fawning people pleasing, not setting boundaries, not being decisive to all of a sudden setting boundaries, being decisive choosing her pursuing her going all in that just lights her up and helps open her up. And so by the end, the women love it. Although in the beginning, I think everyone's a little confused.

Nick VinZant 29:08

Can women benefit from it? Right because it's nice guy reform school but are women too nice to?

Ashley Cox 29:14

They are. It's a saint. It's very similar when it comes to anyone who is codependent anyone who's people pleasing. They become bitter, they become depressed. They don't want to try again. They're shut down. They're frustrated. They're not sure what they're doing wrong. I mean, I used to be that woman. Right. So what I help men with is something that I used to struggle with, especially in my early 20s. For me, it was also a trauma response. I had very strict parents, specifically a very strict mother. And I thought I had to be a certain way and I thought I had to be providing value to receive love. And unfortunately, I abandoned myself in the meantime, and I didn't get the results that I thought I was going to get by being perfect and eventually I had to learn to just be myself and that that was just that was that was enough?

Nick VinZant 30:06

What's kind of coming up next for you? Like, how can people get a hold of you that kind of stuff?

Ashley Cox 30:10

Yeah, so I have a lot going on this year, I'm doing corporate retreats for executives, and working with executive clients one on one in a corporate capacity and I also still have my private practice. So if you want to book a call for my private practice, you can go to quantum Self Mastery calm and there's a book now button you can find nice guy reformed school on all social media platforms. So you can find Instagram is nice guy reform school tick tock is nice guy reform school, Facebook is facebook.com forward slash Nice Guy reform school. And when it comes to the corporate, what you could do is kind of use those same buttons just to get in contact with me, you could email me and let me know that your corporation is looking for someone to help men with their relationship issues so they can get back into their executive functioning in the boardroom and not be distracted by being emotionally flooded.

ASMR Role Play Artist ASMR Shanny

Sometimes it’s a whisper. Sometimes it’s a Cosplay with a personal touch. Content Creator ASMR Shanny is known for creating unique videos that will trigger tingles and help you relax. We talk ASMR, Cosplay, Personal Attention Videos and growing a channel online. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Sounds.

ASMR Shanny: 01:45ish

Pointless: 24:03

Top 5: 37:56ish

http://www.youtube.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny YouTube)

https://www.twitch.tv/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Twitch)

https://www.instagram.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtEjFgulYY&t=351s (ASMR Shanny: Vi Makes You Her Cupcake)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svnik9tIhXg&t=41s (ASMR Shanny: Trinity Runs Diagnostics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjCnHUJA0U&t=836s (ASMR Shanny: Vanessa Captures You)

Interview with ASMR Shanny

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we go inside the world of ASMR and count down the worst sounds.

ASMR Shanny 0:24

And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down, relaxes you helps you sleep, we all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplays. So I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist, like, my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always going to be someone out there who likes it. And there's always going to be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back.

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a content creator, who specializes in ASMR roleplay videos. Looks like there's some waves.

This is ASMR content creator ASMR. Shani, what is ASMR

ASMR Shanny 1:47

ASMR stands for Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response. And as far as we know, right now, like half the world's population gets this tingling sensation. And a lot of people just don't, they don't understand it, but they can still find relaxation from it. And it's basically just sounds or visuals or some in some cases, like my channel role plays like someone pretending to cut your hair. And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down relaxes you helps you sleep. A lot of people who watch it have like insomnia, anxiety, depression, PTSD, or some something else is kind of like, weighing on them mentally. And this can help relax you.

Nick VinZant 2:33

How did you get into it?

ASMR Shanny 2:35

It's really cool. Because a lot of people who have it don't realize they've had it like their whole life. Like my earliest memory I have of like getting this feeling. I was in like, second or third grade. And my friend was just like, putting makeup on me. And I thought it was like a normal thing. Like people just were like, oh, yeah, this is a cool feeling. But then I remember when I found it, I was in my basement at my dad's house. I was like 18 years old. And I was watching YouTube. And there was this channel that I don't even think was meant to be an ASMR channel, but it was called Food surgeon. And it was just like this hands like you didn't see the person it was his hands. And he would set up like a whole like, like surgery, like an operating table. And then he would do like little surgery to food. And he returned like an Oreo into a receipt and stuff like that. And it was just it was giving me that feeling. And then from there, I was getting recommended channels. And these recommended channels were ASMR channels. And that's kind of how I found it and realized, Oh, this is like a thing.

Nick VinZant 3:33

Is it something where like you either get it? Or you don't get it? Or do people get into it later? Like, I've got to watch 20 videos, and then I'm going to really understand what's going on?

ASMR Shanny 3:43

That's a good question. I think it's kind of like, that's what they're researching right now. Because a lot of people um, I think it's something that we've had, like I said, our whole lives, we didn't realize it, and then we find it and you kind of get into it right away because you see it and you get the feeling. I think for some people I know there are even some ASMR artists, people who like make content, who don't get the tingling feeling, but they do find relaxation in it. And so for those kinds of people, it'd be like watching it over time. I know that someone commented on one of my videos today that they don't get the feeling but they like watching ASMR because it's a way to interact with like their favorite fictional characters like my channel. I like do role plays based off like characters and animes or shows and stuff. So they like just kind of having that interaction fake interaction. So,

Nick VinZant 4:28

so okay, I'll be really direct about this. And this this I don't want this to come off as judgment of anybody who likes it or anything like that. But I watched it in for me. I was like, Oh, I can't like it. I couldn't handle it. Do you get that responses? Like I can't I can't watch this. I can't watch this.

ASMR Shanny 4:44

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I'm married and my husband is like the same way like he thinks that's super cringy I mean, like, everyone's got their own thing. Like for me, you just because you like ASMR you're not gonna like every video. Like certain people. There's certain we call them triggers. certain triggers you like and certain triggers you don't like my favorite sounds or water sounds. Um, one thing I can't stand is I hate eating sounds. So if someone is eating in a video can't do it, can't do it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work for somebody else. You just got to find what works for you.

Nick VinZant 5:17

Now, most of the ones that I've seen are on on YouTube, does it something that people have to see at the same time? Or is it just auditory?

ASMR Shanny 5:26

No, it can be auditory or visual. Some people prefer visual some people for auditory, I have a lot of my audios, like my, my video audios on, like what's called Spotify, so people can just listen to it and go to bed. For me, personally, I like role plays, which is like, the only way I can get the feeling is if it's like personal. So it's like, like I said someone cutting my hair or like a doctor examining you. So um, I would need to see the visual, I can't really do just audio, but some people are fine with just sounds, that's the ones you see online or people are like, are like scratching the mic. So it's either or.

Nick VinZant 6:05

That. Yeah, even that it's like Fascinating, right? Yeah. Cuz you don't really listen to things that much like really listened to it?

ASMR Shanny 6:14

Oh, yeah. It's like, you're really just listening to it to zone out when you're doing like the audio stuff. And that's kind of nice when I'm trying to go to bed. And I don't want to focus on like a story or a person. So the audio is kind of nice. And like, like you said, you're not necessarily like really focused on it. It's kind of in the background to relax you.

Nick VinZant 6:30

Me watching it from a complete outsider perspective, right? Is it simply kind of a relaxing thing? Because when I looked at I was like, Okay, this is either something that is relaxing, or is there? Is there a sexual side of it?

ASMR Shanny 6:45

Now, so that is a big question, or like a thing that a lot of us get all the time. So that is, you know, a normal question. But um, no, ASMR is not inherently sexual. Like, it's not meant for, you know, sexual pleasure or anything like that. It's meant to relax people or give people that feeling and make them happy. It's like a euphoric type feeling. It's like anything, anyone anywhere is going to turn something sexual, like, you go to Halloween stores now. And there's like a sexy clown costume or like a sexy ketchup bottle. That's not inherently sexual, but somebody did it. So it's the same thing. There's people out there who are doing NSFW ASMR content. But no, it's not. It's not meant for that. But I mean, you can I guess someone did it. But

Nick VinZant 7:29

right. Yeah, I mean, we've had some adult film stars on this podcast before and one of it like, a guy wanted to watch me eating cheese. Like nobody would think that cheese is a sexual thing. But right how, however you get down, what up,

ASMR Shanny 7:42

and I don't want to diss those people because I have friends who do NSFW ASMR content. So you know, whatever makes anyone happy. But no, yeah, if you ask anyone who does it like on YouTube, it's not meant to be sexual.

Nick VinZant 7:54

There. Is there a lot of people who are into this who are doing it, like how big of an audience are we talking about?

ASMR Shanny 8:02

It's crazy. There's so many more now than what it was when I started. So I found it. Like I said, when I was like 18. And at that point, there wasn't that many people doing it on YouTube. I had like three channels I watched and that was it and shout out to them. It was like GB, ASMR glow, and ASMR magic. And there was a few others like Corona and stuff like that, that I found later. But they're like the real Oh, geez, they've been doing it for years. But when I joined, we call them waves. I was like the third wave of people to start creating on YouTube. And still, there wasn't that many. And now there's so many. There's so many that I find new channels every day

Nick VinZant 8:40

Do do you get pushback? Like do people look at it? who maybe have a different mindset? Like for me, I'm like, Whatever, whatever you want to do, I don't care. Right? Like you're not hurting somebody. Do what makes you happy. But do you get pushback from other people all

ASMR Shanny 8:55

the time, like, I mean, like but just like I like I like I say just like any community out there, there's always pushback about everything. Someone doesn't understand something. And their instinct is to just make fun of or bash people and like you guys are weird. And just let everyone do what they want to do and be happy as long as they're not hurting anybody. Like we're here to help people relax. Like we're helping people with, you know, mental issues such as, like anxiety, we're helping people calm down and sleep. We're not out here to try to make you uncomfortable. So if you don't like it, you know, you don't have to watch it. But you know, there's people out there dissing other communities, you know, people who like anime, so on and so forth. Just let people enjoy. You know,

Nick VinZant 9:30

so like, when you're making one of your videos, are there specific things that like, okay, the ASMR audience wants to hear this. I need to do this.

ASMR Shanny 9:39

Yeah, so um, mine are mainly like roleplay is which is kind of like a situation or like a movie of someone doing something to the viewer. So I have to try to remind myself that it's not always cinematic like I have to include things to make it ASMR such as, like, you know, face touching or like, you know, scratching their head or like anything or like examining them, I have to remember to include those like specific triggers to actually make it an ASMR video

Nick VinZant 10:06

that kind of reminds me of like animal grooming, right? Like,

ASMR Shanny 10:10

there are videos like that where people pretend the viewers like an animal and they groom them, you can find something of everything.

Nick VinZant 10:17

So for like a roleplay video, like what will you do for one of your videos? Like what will you generally do? Do you dress up a certain way? Do you like how does this work?

ASMR Shanny 10:28

So I'm known for my cosplayers. We all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplay, so I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist. Like my most recent video that went up. I don't know if you know anything about anime. I don't always do anime, but it just so happens. My last few videos have been like that. So I did Cowboy Bebop, and I did a character named Faye Valentine. And I spun it like because she's a bounty hunter. So the viewer was getting taken in for the bounty and I was like, playing with like coins and stuff like that and making like, you know, relaxing noises that would involve that scenario, as well as my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct.

Nick VinZant 11:13

And real quick, just to give you an idea of what an ASMR roleplay video sounds like, here's a clip from that matrix video. Hello. Good to see you. Oh, well. This this is the construct. Wait a minute, Cowboy Bebop is all that Netflix show wasn't very good. No.

ASMR Shanny 11:44

Anime. Really? Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 11:48

They screw that up? Like how did they screw that up so badly?

ASMR Shanny 11:52

Oh, you know, I only researched it a tiny bit about the show. But they were saying that they were trying to take like a daring like, twist or take on it and make it like refreshing and new, I guess. But um, I don't know. I personally liked the old Fe Valentine's character. And that's the one I did.

Nick VinZant 12:09

Well, you get like, for example, like now, when we talk about these videos, like are they? How long are they usually? Are you making just some kind of short form stuff? Are you really kind of stretching this? Like I'm putting this on for? You see those YouTube videos, 10 hours of relaxing music and like who the hell is

ASMR Shanny 12:26

I have no idea who watches those. But it would come in handy if you were sleeping. But know that I think the most I've ever done is an hour and that's stretching it like I never do it that long. My Videos typically average like 20 minutes

Nick VinZant 12:37

for yourself. Would you say that? You're I know, this is a hard question to answer, right? Like, are you pretty typical of an ASMR? Content Creator? Or do you feel like wow, I push this a little bit more. I'm a little bit different in this regard.

ASMR Shanny 12:49

I'd say we're all pretty much in this in the same boat. where I differ is I have a lot of I love horror movies and stuff like that. And like science fiction. So I typically border like the horror genre and like sci fi genre, which is a little bit I think different than a lot of people where they kind of do like the typical just like a hair salon or like a normal medical exam. And I always have like a weird little twist on mine.

Nick VinZant 13:16

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

ASMR Shanny 13:20

Oh, yeah, let's go. Oh, that sounds fun.

Nick VinZant 13:23

What is your favorite sound

ASMR Shanny 13:25

water sounds. So like one of my favorite ASMR artists back in the day. ASMR magic, she has this video where she just set up an umbrella with like a microphone underneath it. And she just did like a bunch of drippy water sounds on it fell asleep instantly. I love that video,

Nick VinZant 13:42

is that mainly what a lot of people are doing like they're just putting it on next to them while they're trying to go to sleep or relax

ASMR Shanny 13:49

that or when I used to get anxiety attacks a lot. I would put it on to call me and distract me,

Nick VinZant 13:54

does it? I mean, could you how like, I don't know, this is overly personal, feel free to skip it. But like, like how quickly would it have an effect on you? We have a feeling an attack coming on. And like I have family members that have a personal history about it. So yeah, you know, seeing those experiences, but like,

ASMR Shanny 14:11

I'd say maybe like five to 10 minutes and after they like get immersed in like a role play or something and then it'll distract me enough and calm me down.

Nick VinZant 14:19

I mean, that's pretty good.

ASMR Shanny 14:20

No, it's for especially for me because I can get really bad ones. So

Nick VinZant 14:26

do you. Is there any concern though, that maybe like, because people have this outlet? That maybe someone with an issue isn't getting? Like isn't going to a perfect? A like a professional medical help or a therapist or something like that?

ASMR Shanny 14:43

I do understand. That is a very good question. No, um, we saw a lot of people. I like to think of us as a way to help people get in the door of that because a lot of people think there's like a taboo about therapy, and we don't a lot of ASM artist highly recommend, you know, going to talk to someone it's helpful. So they, a lot of them see us as like a friend or like someone they can go to. And we all have like discords in our own communities and stuff. And I'll have people come in and they feel comfortable enough to open up to me, and I'll talk to them everything but I remind them, I'm not a professional like that. I'm just you know, I'm someone here that cares about them, willing to listen, and then I always recommend people go find someone to talk to. So we always anyone you can ask anyone does ASMR always recommend people going and finding someone that can help them?

Nick VinZant 15:29

What is your least favorite sound? Eating sounds,

ASMR Shanny 15:32

though, I will say even though I don't like eating sounds, I am a foodie. And I will try anything in the whole world. There's not one food I won't try. So I will occasionally go to one of those eating videos just to watch them eat something weird. And I'll just have to like maybe turn down the sound so I don't hear it.

Nick VinZant 15:51

Like an eating. What did they call that a muck?

ASMR Shanny 15:53

Yeah. So you said it. You don't even do it. And you said it way better than I can ever say it. So I'm very impressed.

Nick VinZant 16:01

We had a professional eater who does them. That's the only reason that I know as Katina eats kilos. And she like that's one of her biggest videos. What is something that you have found that is? That is an unexpected sound like that doesn't make the sound you think it does when you really listen to it?

ASMR Shanny 16:18

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Something that makes an unexpected sound. You know this thing. It's sitting next to me. I didn't know it was gonna make this sound. So this is a nice glow. It's like meant for like massaging your face. But I don't know if it'll do it in this mic right now. You can't hear it. It's

Nick VinZant 16:38

a little bit it sounded like kind of watery.

ASMR Shanny 16:41

Yeah, it's like a Blub blub Blub blub and you would think but it's like a really cool thing. Like when I do it with a reverb on stream. It sounds like a like some kind of science fiction Mad Doctor like, you know, like medical blub, blub Blub sound. And it's pretty cool. And I didn't know it was gonna do that when I got it. So we were all for it.

Nick VinZant 16:59

That was actually a pretty cool sound. That was kind of Yeah. Oh, yeah. What is your favorite movie? Affect sound?

ASMR Shanny 17:06

Okay, I don't know about movie effects sound but my first time that I ever really got ASMR well, two, there's two. And they were both animated movies when I was like really little. And so it's scenes because I'm not necessarily a sound person. Like I said, I'm more of like a roleplay visual person. But in Toy Story, when the old man is like repainting Woody? And like Dude, I'm talking about when he's like retouching of Woody's paint and like, he's stitching them and stuff in and backup. That was a big one for me that gave me ASMR and then a Nightmare Before Christmas. When Jack Skellington is like testing all the Christmas stuff and his like lab and he's like crushing the ornaments and like doing like tests on them. Hmm, that was another one. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 17:49

I have not seen Nightmare Before Christmas is too scary for me. I can't watch scary movies. Oh, it's that bad.

ASMR Shanny 17:58

Oh, you would never want to watch movies with me. I'm so sorry. I

Nick VinZant 18:00

can't stand it at all. Like, King Kong. The movie King cause like this is too scary. I'm leaving. Oh, I can only handle it. I cannot handle it. Um, oh my gosh. Have you ever heard the Star Wars like concussion? Grenade? That's the sound that always that's like a bone.

ASMR Shanny 18:20

Oh, okay. Yes. Now I know it. Isn't that weird? You did it. And I was like, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 18:25

that sound is Yeah, yeah. That's cool. This one says do you watch go to video? I don't know what that means. Is it? Just me? Oh, what video I go to video. Yeah. What's what for you? What's your go to video

ASMR Shanny 18:46

I will share. So. It's so funny because I say that my favorite videos are like roleplay videos, but actually, they are like, I prefer roleplay videos. But my two favorite videos are from the same person. And they're not really roleplay videos. They're more of like a trigger video interlaced with it. It's kind of hard to explain. But her name is Rami. See if I say it correctly, because I think she's Korean. So I don't want to butcher the name here. Hold on. Rep. So it's rappeler.

Nick VinZant 19:13

As we put a link, we can put a link to in the description.

ASMR Shanny 19:16

Yeah, I'll give you it's our a PP E L er ASMR. And she has two videos that I love. And she must have spent months making this. It's like a book. And she does like an exam but she like Drew ears and stuff in the book and put microphones in the book. And like, it's so good and so cool and interesting. And then she made her own book of Coraline like the movie, but it's in like a pop up book form so she can like it's really cool. Those are my two favorite videos.

Nick VinZant 19:48

So how long does it take you to make a video you put out like what one a week or so

ASMR Shanny 19:53

I put out two a week and it takes me like three days on each one she that had to have been like should have put a month into each Have those videos like That's insane? Like they are so good?

Nick VinZant 20:03

What is your most frequent look? Most frequent request?

ASMR Shanny 20:09

Um, so I guess there's a bunch of them. There's similar like as I typically border like the horror stuff. And so I don't know if you ever heard of the SPS SCP Foundation? Have you ever heard of that? No. Okay. It's like a wiki. Like it was like a basically like a internet story. That like is like a wiki website. And it's like, fake, but it's like a sci fi website that has all these different monsters. And like, since then it's become video games. And it's like this huge thing. And there's all it's basically like a foundation, kind of like area 51, where they keep all these different, like monsters and creatures and aliens and stuff around the world trapped in this place. And they all have different numbers like SCP 191, or SCP 099. And so I'll do different videos, like the viewer is a different monster each time and I'm a doctor, or a scientist examining them, I get a lot of requests for that.

Nick VinZant 21:07

What is your most interesting request?

ASMR Shanny 21:11

Oh, well, not interesting. The most annoying one that we get all the time is that everyone always wants to see like feet. Because you know, people try to turn things sexual all the time when they shouldn't.

Nick VinZant 21:21

I will give this to the feet people. They are persistent.

ASMR Shanny 21:24

They are persistent. And like I said, everyone has their thing. So I don't want to diss them. But I wish they would stop putting it in the comments on like people's pages who clearly aren't doing feet content.

Nick VinZant 21:34

For somebody who is looking to get into this. As a content creator. I think they mean, what advice would you give them

ASMR Shanny 21:42

just to do it. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always gonna be someone out there who likes it. And there's always gonna be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back. You don't need expensive equipment. I have friends who have 400,000 subscribers get like 200,000 video views a day and all they uses an iPhone. So like, Just do it. Just start right now. Just go do it. Also join Twitter because the ASMR community is so nice. And we will all support you.

Nick VinZant 22:15

So now you have the YouTube channel. What else do you have?

ASMR Shanny 22:18

I have my YouTube channel and then I have my Twitch, which is you know, like live streaming where I play video games or do ASMR and that's also ASMR Shani,

Nick VinZant 22:27

cool. Um, where do you I guess? Where do you think this goes? Like, ASMR? Yeah, I think the next thing is,

ASMR Shanny 22:34

I think it's gonna keep growing, I would love to see it more in like out in the public more in the world more actually being used to help people like, you know, if we can learn more about it in this study that they're doing right now, over in the UK, it would be really cool to see it start being incorporated, like maybe in therapy or like with, you know, psychologists and stuff like that, because it really is a benefit. And you know, I'd like to see it less taboo and more like people actually learning about it and seeing that, you know, it can help people

Nick VinZant 23:01

do you know, is there a typical age range for your audience?

ASMR Shanny 23:04

There is no i Because I It ranges from like, you know, 13 or lower, you know, to I've had it says on YouTube, I've had people like in their 70s

Nick VinZant 23:14

So like, Gee, is there anything else you think that we missed, or what's kind of coming up next for you?

ASMR Shanny 23:20

There's not really much that you missed. I mean, we're, we're all just working really hard I have. We all always work on collabs and stuff like that. I'm trying to you know, just work on Twitch and grow that pretty, you know, pretty much that's all there is to it. I just make two videos a week. You can catch that out on my channel and I stream on Twitch four days a week.

Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Dallas Seavey is one of the best dog mushers in history. He’s won the Iditarod 5x and is getting his dog sled ready for a sixth. We talk dogs, braving 55 degrees below zero, forming a bond with your pet and eating 12,000 calories a day. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Dogs.

Dallas Seavey: 01:15ish

Pointless: 35:06

Top 5: 45:24ish

http://dallasseavey.com (Dallas Seavey Website)

https://www.facebook.com/DallasSeavey (Dallas Seavey Facebook)

https://www.youtube.com/c/dallasseavey1 (Dallas Seavey YouTube)

Interview with Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everyone, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, dogs, real ones, and fake ones.

Dallas Seavey 0:22

The Iditarod is strung out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of like, I don't know if I can actually pull this off or if I can physically do this as, as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. So on a really good trail, good conditions. You know, we're going to be looking at probably 120 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster rail windy. I know, right? That's exactly what I think the best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here. Right.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, please leave a review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So our first guest is one of the best dog mushers in history. This is five time I did Rob champion, Dallas Seavey. So when did you realize that this was something that you wanted to do?

Dallas Seavey 1:18

Um, I grew up mushing sled dogs being around dogs, and they were always a huge part of my life. I would say when I decided that I was going to jump in with both feet and make this my adult lifestyle was after I got done wrestling, I was a wrestler for a long time in Olympic style primarily. And then had my career cut a little short due to too many concussions. And it really I think that's what I've kind of turned my focus. Alright, where's Where's another sport where I can be miserable. And my, my one good trait, which is being really good at being miserable. And keeping a level head through it all and making good decisions. Where does that have value? And then where can I do that in a way that I enjoy it and that's mushing I, I like the challenges it puts on me as a person. But more so I enjoy the connection with the animals, you know, overcoming challenges with your best friends, which are in this case, dogs, you know, getting out there and do something difficult. And it's not always fun in the sense of, Oh, isn't this so much fun sitting on the beach with, you know, a drink in your hand, but it's fulfilling, and it's rewarding.

Nick VinZant 2:22

Okay, so from the complete outside, I know nothing about it perspective, right? Like, alright, you stand there on the back of the sled, you tell the dogs to go.Tell me why it's way harder and more complicated than that,like, what are you really doing?

Dallas Seavey 2:37

Yeah, you know, at some points in time, it is that simple, because we're working with a dog that loves to mush as much as we do, right. And that's really the core of this is the sled dogs. This is their passion. This is what they love to do. Just like if you have a lab, you can throw that ball at me 10,000 times 20,000 times, and they're still going to go running over there and fetch it and bring it back your Border Collie, it doesn't matter if it's sheep, if it's chickens, if it's kids, if it's bicycles, they're gonna try to hurt it and push them all together, because that's what they're programmed to do. And in sled dogs, they're programmed to run to travel to pull. That's what they love doing. So at times, it really is just that simple. At the beautiful times, when you're sitting on the sled, the dogs are cruising down the trail, everything's happy, hunky dory, no problems in the world. The challenge is to try to do it better to try to set the dogs up for more success to understand them to such a level that you see what's going to happen and their physiology three, four or five days from now. And that takes understanding to really master the sport, you have to understand these guys to know the paces that they can run, how much rest do they need after each section of this trail? And what speed should we be traveling in? How is this individual going to react to this different trail condition? Is it going to take more of a toll on their body? Is this an easier trail for them? And then not just as an individual, but as a team? How is it going to affect each of them? So we're monitoring the calories that are going in the attitude amongst the team? How they're acting? Are they having a great day? Are they having a rough day? How am I going to accommodate accommodate their challenges on a day to day basis? How am I going to lift them up when it's you know, just a crappy weather day? And it's maybe not as much fun? How am I going to kind of bring them down later when they're all gung ho and excited and going way too fast? And I know that this isn't a sustainable pace, how do I help monitor them and keep them on that level keel? So it's challenging, primarily because you have to understand, and nowadays it's a 14 dog race, you have to understand all 14 of those dogs individually, so intimately well, and then also as a single unit, how they interconnect. And then finally you add the different species, the human into the equation and you have to understand how you're going to react to eight, nine days of sleeping very little or not sleeping at all, and being in at times down to 54 by 57, below zero temperatures, because our emotions, our feelings, start making effects, oftentimes negative effects on the team when we're sour, and we're miserable, and we think everything's going wrong. And we're only looking at it from our human perspective, you got to kind of get out of your own head out of your own body and look at what the dogs see. And, and always set them up for success. That's really the key to managing any team, right is, is making sure that all your players are having the best day of their life.

Nick VinZant 5:28

It is kind of interesting, right? It's kind of like managing 14 people that you can't talk to,

Dallas Seavey 5:32

you're right in the short term, that is exactly what it is. The dogs, you know, they are very much so a pack animal. And they required I should say, demand, good pack structure. And if we're going to insert ourselves as the leader, we have to provide that pack structure. And we have to be aware of everything that's happening, where humans value comfort, the sled dogs value security, and that security comes from a strong pack.

Nick VinZant 5:59

When you look at the people who weigh you know, you've won the I did rod, I think five times, right? That's the that's the race that everybody at least in North America has kind of heard of. When you look at the people who win those races, though, is it like, okay, look, Dallas has the best dogs. We all know he's got the best dogs, he could sit back there and watch TV all day. And like how much of it is just the physical ability of the dog itself?

Dallas Seavey 6:24

That is definitely a factor. But you know, and I've played with this because I love breaking down Why do teams have success? Why is this team winning? Why is this team not winning? And I think at the end of the day, I would always take the great musher with an OK dog team. I would choose that one every single time over the great dog team with an OK musher. Even the best mushers. I think we're leaving a lot on the table. No, we're still learning, we're still getting better at developing and maximizing the sled dogs. So I don't think that the limiting factor at the moment is the raw genetic potential. I think these dogs are still capable of far more than what we're able to, you know, get out of them. And that's going to come through more and better development, more and better nutrition, medical awareness. I mean, I spend most of my day when I'm not mushing, the rest of my day is spent, basically, as a sports medicine professional. I'm massaging dogs. I'm doing a lot of cold laser therapy with these guys. We're maintaining the foot health, we're always looking at the nutrition. Where are we know, where can we improve on this nutrition on the dogs? No. Is it more omega three fatty acids? Is it something over here in the antioxidant range? Are we we have the AST Xanthine at the right levels, vitamin E, you know, we're trying to understand these guys on the whole spectrum. So I would say the coach makes a bigger difference. But also it goes one layer further because in most sports, a coach or a franchise is going to recruit or draft players, right? We do all of that in house it starts with a puppy being born. And it starts even before that when me as a musher decides which dogs are going to breed. So even the raw genetic potential that you have in your kennel is a trait of your mushers knowledge when it comes to breeding and genetics. Right, so we can't use that. Oh, the dogs aren't good enough as an excuse because we have to take ownership of that and recognize that we decided which dogs to breed.

Nick VinZant 8:18

So the particulars like I've never seen a sled dog before like they're this big. They're this breed like kind of fill me in on the particulars. I guess

Dallas Seavey 8:29

the Alaskan Husky that we're racing is a mixed breed dog. Now the mixing primarily happened in the early 19 hundred's during the Gold Rush era in Alaska, when sled dogs were incredibly valuable, because that was the primary mode of transportation to haul, you know hopeful miners and supplies out to these gold mining towns and gold and a lot of discouraged miners out of the gold mining towns. And so during that time, sled dogs are incredibly valuable and this caused people to bring any dog they had to Alaska, and then cross those with the malamutes and Siberians which were the kind of traditional sled dogs of Siberia and Alaska that had been you know, helping humans survive in the Arctic for over 10,000 years. And then the resulting mixed breed puppy was just generically coined the Alaskan husky, and it's smaller than an Alaskan Malamute, smaller than most Siberians, but there are some pretty small Siberians out there as well. So most of the Alaskan Huskies are between 50 and 75 pounds. So it's not like a specific Oh, this is the right size, and they can look like everything. There's all different colorations in there. The one thing that is common amongst all sled dogs is their innate drive and desire to run and more than run to pull. It's really interesting. I've got about a two acre fenced in you know, play pan out here that the dogs go out into and out there they like to trot around and they'll you know, one of them will pick up a stick and run and the other ones will chase them chase them of course, but um, they like to run in that setting, but they go absolutely reserve when you get out the harness, and now they get to be in a team and get to pull. It is so strange that it's not just running, it's actually the act of pulling that they enjoy. Now, how far can they go in a day? In the I did run setting, which is nearly 1000 Miles race. It's not a matter of how far they can go is how far is it smart to go? And how far can they go sustainably sustainably would be the key word here. So on a really good trail, good conditions, you know, we're going to be looking at probably 120, about 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster trail winning pace. Yep, I know, right. That's exactly what I think every time I kidding. And they're doing this. And that. And this is where you get the discrepancy of the human and the dog because I'm getting very little sleep in a day, because I'm the only person that can aid my team, I'm the only one that can prepare their food that can put the booties on their feet to put the jackets on and when it's time to stop and sleep, give them massages, fix my sled repack the sled. So when we stop, that's when I actually go to work. So I might be getting an hour to two hours of sleep a day. Whereas the dogs are getting somewhere between eight and 12 hours of sleep a day, depending on where we are in the race, if it's early in the race, if it's later how tough the traveling conditions are so far, so on and so forth. So when I'm thinking, oh, man, I gotta wake the dogs up, put the booties on him and start going in my heads in a cloud because I haven't slept hardly at all in six or seven or eight days. And I'm getting them hitched up and all of a sudden, these dogs start barking and lunging and hitting the line, just raring to go. And it blows your mind every single time. And you got to remember they're they're getting a little more sleep, but they're also the ones that are actually running down the trail. And that's a pretty phenomenal athlete.

Nick VinZant 11:40

Right? Right. Yeah. I honestly when I asked that question with no knowledge, honestly tell you guys say like 1020 miles. Yeah, that's incredible. 100 ma.

Dallas Seavey 11:50

Yeah. So here's shit. And there's a few things that allow the sled dogs and you know, it's not like they're running on a treadmill? No, no, it's a lot harder than a treadmill run. But in to do that sort of distance on a day, it would require a fairly good trail where the snowmobiles have gone before the race, kind of pack it down. So there might be some light squishy snow, maybe an inch or two of soft snow on the surface. But there's generally a packed base underneath that not always but generally. But what makes the sled dogs or allows them to be able to do these incredible feats are a few things. First of all, the canine in general has the largest heart proportionate to its body mass of any mammal out there. So they're already starting with a heart that's bigger than any other mammal. And surprisingly, mammals heart size is pretty constant relative to their body size. Of course, everywhere from a mouse to a whale, it's a pretty constant heart size. And I think it starts at point oh, six of the animal's body mass can be built to point O eight. Whereas canine start at point O eight and can build it up to 1% of their body mass, so they have a bigger heart, then pretty much any mammal. The second thing that really allows the canine, aka the Alaskan Husky to be such a phenomenal traveler, is their ability to process calories. First of all, a dog system runs on fats, as opposed to a human that we were on more off of sugar, right? So we're looking at carbs, you look at a marathoners diet, and it's very simple sugars, it's those fast carbs that are going to hit their system. And when a marathoner talks about bonking at the end of a marathon, it's when they run out of blood sugar, and now their body's having to convert stored fat into energy. That's a very inefficient process for a human. A dog system is designed to run on fats. And they're incredibly efficient at either consuming fats and instantly turning it into energy or storing that fat and then switching and using stored fat for energy. Lastly, a 55 pound sled dog can easily burn and then also consume and replace 12,000 calories a day. 12,000 calories a day. So we think of a crazy human athlete, let's say Michael Phelps will hit 12,000 calories in a day. But he's not a 55 pound animal either. Right? So when you look at the calories per kilo of animal, their ability to consume and and then process and then utilize those calories makes them the ultimate endurance animal. That is kind of crazy when you think about it, right? Like if you translated that to a normal, average human 150 pound male, that's like 36,000 calories. Yeah, it's just time all day just to plain eat that. I would Yeah, if you could, you know, that would be a real challenge. You'd have to be some sort of professional eager to hit that many calories to get 36,000 calories, you'd be looking at almost 10 pounds of straight fat, because a pound of fat, I think is 3500 calories. And this brings up another really good point as a musher when I'm coaching new mushers or even a do mushing symposium and things like that. We have to recognize our our place as a human in the pecking order here. These dogs are the supreme athlete. So especially for me I was a I was a wrestler I can been at the top level I came out of that went into my And I viewed myself as very physical musher. Right, I was the guy that could run up all the hills could ski pole constantly. And yes, I can do that. But that is not the best use of my energy. The best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here, right? I can do massages, I can put booties on I can prepare food, I am a caregiver on the trail, I have to recognize the fact that they are the athletes. So me trying to run up the hills, and you know, tiring myself out is not helping the team. The way that I help the team is make sure that they feel 100% Perfect. If I can do that, they can do incredible things they did a rod is about maintaining a healthy team, as you travel a great distance. It's about being a good dog person. And the racing part of it almost happens in a secondary nature. If you do all these base things really well, good results are going to happen.

Nick VinZant 15:52

What was that, like when you the first time that you want it?

Dallas Seavey 15:55

That was that was quite the experience? You know, mostly because I didn't know if I could. And I have to admit that's probably part of why I wanted to get into it. I didn't know if I could win the idea, right? My dad had been racing since I was very young. He my dad raised me I did run from 95 to 2020. So all of my childhood was focused around helping my dad prepare his his teams for the Iditarod, things like that. So my life was focused around it. And you know, my dad's a now a three time I did a rock champion, you know, very focused individual very successful running his his businesses and whatnot. So when I saw him try and seemingly failed to win the I did it year after year, it really put I did run champions up on this pedestal for me where I felt like they were superhuman Demi gods that were able to do it. Because if my dad can't do it, and obviously I looked up to him, you know, then what does it take to do this? And finally, on my dad's 11th attempt, he cracked the code one his first I did right in 2004. And that was like, I think the moment that I realized that the people that when they did are are not superhuman, they're not demigods. They're just very persistent. People that continually know, creatively solve problems, continually address things that they have to do this introspective look and say, What am I doing wrong? And take ownership of that. By the time you know, I started racing with my own kennel in 2009. You know, by that point, my dad had run 15 Something I did rods, maybe more and had one, you know, one of them. So I didn't know if I could. And when I won my first I did run every single dog and my team had been purchased from another kennel. And what that means is every one of my dogs had just recently been fired from their previous job. And so it really was kind of the mix match hodgepodge team. And that was the first time that a team one thing I did, that was entirely purchased. So the feeling was definitely a bit of a bit of a shock and surprise, like holy cow, we actually did it. But definitely the overpowering feeling was a sense of pride. You know, in this team and these dogs what they had become, they weren't the best of the best genetically, right? All these were all the the worst dog in their litter, not the best dog in the litter. They were the last round draft picks. And that's really, it really opened my eyes to how much more we can do about development. The focus is about developing these dogs, not better raw genetic material, but better coaching and development of what you have.

Nick VinZant 18:28

So will you look at it? So there's 14? Are they in Rosa two? Yep. So will you look at and say, okay, Steve is great in the middle of the pack on the left side, but he's no right side dog, like do you really put a lot of thought into exactly where in the harness they go?

Dallas Seavey 18:45

Mm hmm. And that changes on a, you know, on an hourly basis, honestly. So I do have dogs that are right and left sided, there are dogs that were on way better on the right or the left than they do the other side. And that's less common than dogs that will run better forward or back in the team. You know, as you get into the front of the team, it's, it is the most difficult position in the lead position, both physically and mentally, physically, because they're the ones having to drive the pace, there's no visual reference of how hard they need to go. The only input they have is from how hard they're pulling on the line behind them. So they're always having to put an extra 10% on the line to keep that line tight. If the team's going down a hill and then up the next tail it's like a dog team is a long item. So while half the team is still going down this hill at a greater speed, the front half of the team is having to sprint up the next hill at a much faster speed so it is harder for the lead dogs physically. Also, if you've run at all if you draft off of another runner they provide a windbreak right and humans run more racked. Obviously we have more surface area we create more wind resistance. But look at Tour de France cyclist they line up because it is easier to be in that space. slipstream have the cycles ahead of you. And it's the same with a dog team, they kind of have that decreased wind resistance. And then finally, if there's any soft snow on the trail, the dogs in the front are the ones having to put those first tracks in the snow and it gets easier for each pair of dogs behind them. Now when you get to the back of the team, the dogs right in front of the sled, they oftentimes have to be a little bit more agile, particularly on twisty windy trails, as we're going around these turns, those back, dogs will often have to jump over the center line and get over on the same side as their buddy to avoid an obstacle or the soft snow on the trail. And then as soon as we've completed that turn, they have to get back on their own side so that they can allow their partner to do the same thing, you know, jump over the line when we take a sweeping left hand turn. So those back dogs, not only are they having to pull forward, but they're having to be quick on their feet and jumping side to side and a little more activity there. So now that we understand that there are easier positions, generally in the middle of the team and harder positions, generally at the ends of the team. I'm constantly rotating dogs, so that nobody gets stuck in the hardest position for too long of a period of time. And this is also where you're judging attitude, how they're doing. And it's like, Man, this dog, they need to have an easy day to day. So I'm going to put them in the middle of the team, I may not even clip up their harness, you know, just put them on their collar so that they can jog along and not actually feel like they need to be pulling anything or not allowing them to pull because if that harness is hooked up, they will be leaning and pulling. So it's essentially putting them in neutral so that they can have a recovery run versus you know, actually working hard. Other dogs, man, they're, they're on it today. They're all perky and lively. And you know they've got that extra energy. Go ahead and take on that harder position in the lead today. So we're constantly moving dogs around in the team.

Nick VinZant 21:39

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yeah. What is your favorite dog name?

Dallas Seavey 21:47

It's hard to separate the name from the dog because when I mean I'm sure just like human names. There's got to be human names like Man, I hate people that are not people but I hate this name. Because it reminds me of this total Jackass I knew back in college. Right. But I would say both the one that popped into my head I'm just gonna go with that is clutch. Clutch. Awesome dog. He was on my first my early racing team though the winning teams back in the very first one. And he was the biggest heart a dog I've ever seen an insane appetite. He's one that I would have to feed him. Like just one quart of food at a time. I couldn't put all his food in his bowl because he would just smash his head in there and eat it and all the water would squirt out on the side of his face. So and it didn't matter how much you give him. He would feed him until he just be this big old barrel basically like the lab attitude where if you spill the bag of dog food, he'll eat the entire thing. Right? And just a huge hard on him. Yeah. Awesome, fun dog to be around. He wasn't the smartest. He wasn't the best athlete. But he had the biggest heart.

Nick VinZant 22:46

What about the worst?

Dallas Seavey 22:48

I'm not a fan of human names for dogs. I don't know why. It's just, I don't know. So most of my names are not human names.

Nick VinZant 22:58

Do you ever just mush to like the store? Or like, Hey, I'm gonna take a quick trip and just take the dogs.

Dallas Seavey 23:05

Yeah, yeah, no, I love doing trips like that because it breaks the cycle of mushing is just for training or just for the Iditarod No, mushing is what I love to do. Right. I like traveling by dog team. And I like doing it for fun. And sometimes when you really get serious into the race, and you've got to say, Hey, am I still enjoying this? Are we just so focused on the race that I'm taking the fun out of it by making it a job? And so I really make a point to do fun runs, you know, we're just going out to have a good time. It's not about conditioning. It's not about training a new lead dog. It's not about anything. It's just about having a good time. When I think back to my most fun, mushing, it's when I was six and seven and I had one or two dogs tied to the front of a sled that used to slide down like a kid sled just for sliding down the snowbanks know, having one or two dogs on that just just traveling. It's the most pure simple joy if you were just bouncing through the forest, a kitten some dogs having fun. So I checked my mail regularly by dog team in the mailbox is about four miles away.

Nick VinZant 24:04

I forgot that's what Alaska is kind of like, right? Yeah. I kind of like this question. Besides dogs, what other animal do you feel like you could mush? Like, could you do like an elephant? The first

Dallas Seavey 24:17

one that pops into my head is reindeer. I've spent a fair bit of time yeah, in Norway and Scandinavia. I did the longest race in Europe, which is in the way far north of Norway. Twice. Back in 18 and 19. And they I mean, mushing or, I'm sure it's not called mushing, but driving reindeer is actually a thing. Russians do it. I've seen some videos they look a little bit sketchy to say the least. But um you know, they're Russians mushing are driving these reindeer teens and I don't know how well the reindeer are trained but it's it looks pretty rudimentary to me. And obviously appear there's a history with or elsewhere also, but you know, horse drawn carriages and things like that. But I saw There's one really cool picture in one of the local restaurants around here, and it's actually back in the early 1900s. And there is a moose that they had trained to pull a sleigh or carriage of some sort, which really surprised me, but they actually had like this moose pole and stuff. And that would be, that would be a challenge because that is very much a wild animal. And big, very large

Nick VinZant 25:24

for people who maybe haven't encountered moose is like those are, though that you do not fuck with a moose. No, that is way. It's basically like a small school bus. On like, every time I've seen one. Yep,

Dallas Seavey 25:39

they're shockingly large. But I will say there's few things as majestic in the wilderness as a big bowl most. There's one because I've grown up eating most right now. That's the meat I have in my freezer is is most. And the last one I got about the last one, one of the ones I got was about seven and a half feet tall to the shoulders. Just a standard doorway is six foot eight inches. So seven and a half feet tall. That's the shoulder of this thing. Yeah, they're massively large animal and they are our biggest concern, while mushing in, in the wintertime, that's the one animal that can give you problems and actually be aggressive towards the dog team. especially late in the winter, when there's deep snow, the moose, I feel for them, they've got a very rough life. But if the snow is deepest covered up all their food, if it's a really cold weather, or cold winter, they have no fat reserves left and they can be just running out of energy. And it's easy for them to, you know, Miss misinterpret a dog team for a pack of wolves, which is their main predator that time of year. So if they don't feel like they can run away, their next instinct is to turn and charge. So we're always on the watch out for most, and making sure that our team and moose don't have a bad interaction.

Nick VinZant 26:51

Okay, I don't know how to quantify this necessarily. But I've always heard that the I did rod is basically like one of the hardest things in the world, is it? Or is that kind of like, it's a little bit of media propaganda kind of stuff, I would have

Dallas Seavey 27:04

a hard time saying that's the hardest thing in the world. I mean, that's a pretty dang bold statement, look at the things that humans have survived, or done right. And in most of the most extreme things humans have done, they have not done it by choice, or they've done it in a situation where the other choice was death. But yeah, it is physically challenging. In a way that's different than let's say, like an Ironman Triathlon, which is a common thing that humans do electively that would probably be more difficult in an acute way, in a short term, or in the next 12, or 14 or 18 hours, I don't know how long it takes, is going to be absolutely brutal. But the other thing that they do in that time frame is you put your head down, you don't think you just go right. And you know that that and his insight is all done in less than a day, the dinner rod is strong out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of like, I don't know, if I can actually pull this off. Or if I can physically do this as as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. And while the dogs have good hair, and they're designed for this, and they're burning all these calories, which produces a lot of heat, I am not developed to live in 55, below zero temperatures, so your feet are freezing. And there's this uncertainty and probably one of the more similar settings to put it in, in that case, would be more like special forces training, let's take you know hell week for seals, that would probably be a more similar setting where it's like, I don't know if I can complete this. And there's the real fear not that you would necessarily die. Of course, that is an option. But that you might not pass, it's more of a pride thing. You know, I may fail here, you're there's the uncertainty of I have to make decisions. And I don't know, even though I think I made the best decision, I don't know if that'll be enough to accomplish what I have in front of me. And then also there's the tactical decisions that we have to deal with. And you're getting hit with one decision after the next step to the next step to the next. And it starts to play well with you on a kind of an emotional level, especially when you're on low sleep very, very low sleep. And sleep deprivation has to be one of the most, you know, painful things or it is the most painful thing about this. And it is it hits humans very, very hard when you're on day seven and not sleeping. You're not yourself and all your facade and ego even the stuff you didn't think you had a facade or an ego or an image that you project all of that comes away and you were down to just you. And if you're not comfortable with who you are at the very core. It's a terrifying situation for a lot of people. And that's something that's really important with mushing and dogs. You have to be comfortable with who you are at the very base because it will be exposed and that's something that a lot of people don't ever turn and face. Secondly, the dogs see right through those facades, right you can do all the pump up hype for your humans because they understand the words you're saying the dogs don't understand the words they see the intent behind it. That

Nick VinZant 29:50

is true. You can't fool them. What's your favorite piece of musher lingo?

Dallas Seavey 29:55

It's simple. Well, when we're I'd say we're, we always end up like that. I'm gonna go broody, the dogs, because we're putting little shoes on their feet. That's a constant project, right, we put a each dog has four feet, and we got 14 of them in the team. So, though that's something we do before every run taking the booties off after the run, so probably booting dogs Wait, if

Nick VinZant 30:16

you got 10 dogs, it's 40 feet. Man, that's a lot. A lot of work.

Dallas Seavey 30:21

Yep. And, and that's, that's almost always what causes a little bit of frostbite for your for your hands, because again, our hands aren't designed to be, you know, uncovered at those temperatures. So especially if it's windy, even if it's only five or 10, below zero, which is reasonably reasonably warm here. The wind is the worst. So when I have to put those boots on and a stiff wind in any sort of cold temperatures, you feel your hands like dry out start to almost Yeah, basically start to freeze and your skin gets to be like real thin papery almost so any little nick on them will instantly become a cut as they become very brittle. And then you'll actually see on the backs of your hands kind of at this level below this knuckle and also above it. On each finger, you'll get a little football shaped welt where the wind is hitting the back of your hand as you're putting those boots on and create a welt across there. Just from basically frostbite that happens in a matter of seconds. You know it one particular year I'm thinking of 2009 we had a horrific storm on the Bering Sea coast. And it was both very, very cold and super strong winds. It effectively shut down the race for 18 hours until the wind started to lead up. But I was out there caring for the dogs I built like little snow forts around them to create a wind block. And I think the windchill factor in that was like 115, below zero, and exposed skin freezes basically instantly in those temperatures. And that's why we weren't moving or stopped down because it's just not safe to travel or move in those type of conditions. Despite the dogs. No the being evolved to live in these conditions. You know, they went from being wolves in Alaska to being domesticated wolves, aka the Alaskan Malamute to being modern day Alaskan Huskies and they never became a house dog they never left last, the traits and qualities that allowed them to be successful article Arctic survivors as wolves. So they are very well developed for these conditions. As humans. We didn't develop in these conditions. And so we're the ones who have to adapt and get better clothing and gear. And you know, wash your hands freeze the dogs, they're incredibly tough, and incredibly well adapted for this refer to this lifestyle. This is what they've been doing for 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years.

Nick VinZant 32:30

That's pretty much all the questions I had man. Is there anything you think we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dallas Seavey 32:36

Yeah, I would say the only thing that's left out there is you know, mushing is definitely not your mainstream sport. It's not on you know, ESPN every every Sunday. And you know, so this one if you do want to follow mushing and watch dog races, doing it online is definitely the best way and, and now that that's become more common, it's, it's, I guess, a little easier and more accessible for people. But you know, go to I did rod.com. That's the official, I did her on webpage, you know, and the I did, Ron is the World Championships. It is the biggest dog sled race out there, you're gonna see the best of the best teams show up at that race. It starts the first Saturday in March, and then leading up to the race all winter long. You know, social media is a great way to follow mushers in the process and learn more about it, you know, start to understand the individual dogs and what goes into developing them. And there's a lot of information like us, particularly that we try to put out, that helps people become a better steward to their dog or their pet. At the bottom of all of this, it's about the human animal connection, which I think is an awesome and sacred thing that you humans would not have developed in so many places around the world without the aid of animals. And that even just 100, definitely 200 years ago, your connection with animals was much closer, we depended on them, we relied on them. And that builds that really close tight bond. Nowadays, our relationship with pets is a convenience. It's a luxury item, we like to have a pet. But we don't have that super close bond as you would if you relied on that pet. So take for example, somebody who has a nice fluffy dog, it's a great dog, they come home from work, they patted on the head, say Good Dog, take it for a walk. There's a friendship, there's a relationship, but there's not a connection like there would be for somebody with their seeing eye dog. They rely on each other, that's going to be a much closer bond. So I guess what I would just say is, you know, check out the social media, Dallas CV on Facebook, and we'll get all the other platforms as well. The information is on the Facebook to go on YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and those ones. We have great fluffy Husky pictures, Puppy pictures, all that good stuff, but also information about you know, trying to develop that closer relationship with your pet to enhance that experience of the human animal connection, enhance the quality of life, your dog and your enjoyment of that pet as a human.

Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Most adult films are made for mainstream audiences. Producer Sinn Sage is not mainstream, her goal is to bring new visibility to sexual preferences that were once taboo. We talk lesbian love scenes, transgender pornography and creating custom clips for every corner of the fetish world. Then, we put fries and potatoes chips against hash browns and tater tots as we count down the Top 5 Potato Foods.

Sinn Sage: 01:43ish

Pointless: 34:36ish

Top 5: 55:41ish

http://www.sinn-sage.com (Sinn Sage Website)

http://www.instagram.com/realsinnsage (Sinn Sage Instagram)

http://www.twitter.com/sinnsage (Sinn Sage Twitter)

http://www.linktr.ee/sinnsage (Sinn Sage Linktree)

Interview with Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, queer erotica, and Po, Tito's,

Sinn Sage 0:24

that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera. A big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to, I want to improve that like visibility. And I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the Internet, what makes it a good one, dedication and care to detail,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think one of the most powerful things out there is seeing somebody who looks like you who represents the group that you are in, depicted in a media that you enjoy. Because not only does that bring extra visibility and awareness, but I think it also shows you that there are other people like you, and then it's okay to be who you are. Our first guest does exactly that with adult films. This is queer erotica, producer, sin, sage. So you've starred in films for about 20 years. But when did you get into producing,

Sinn Sage 1:48

so I worked in pretty much mainstream lesbian porn. At that same time, I was getting a lot of emails and people were requesting custom videos from me. So I was like, you know, I think I should start learning how to do this and see about making my own content and making these custom videos because that's money being presented to me that I'm just walking away from. So I started very simply, and I even went on my Amazon wishlist and I asked for like a little baby video camera, a basic editing program and a single light and kind of went from there. Now it's a full on production company. And we still produce high quality custom videos, very specific to what people ask for.

Nick VinZant 2:39

So when you're producing a film, right, like what goes into that? Exactly, because in my mind, right, when we're talking about these kinds of films is like you get to people and camera and you go right, but obviously, it's more complicated than that. So what kind of goes into it?

Sinn Sage 2:55

Yeah, so that's, that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera or something like that. But I think it's very clear from a lot of productions, that that's not what's going on, because everything looks great. Professional, mainstream sets are very much like any other movie set. It's just that instead of, I don't know, like, being John Wick, you know, you're here, two people having sex, or eight people or 10, you know, whatever.

Nick VinZant 3:33

When you like when you contract performers. How does that like? Are you looking for somebody specific? Do they contact you? Like, how does that process kind of fill out? Do you like, do they audition? No.

Sinn Sage 3:48

Not for not for me in my little studios? And generally no, we don't do like, there's not really an audition process for this type of stuff. A lot of people have agents, that these are more mainstream, bigger production companies. And at that point, it's more just based on what you look like. And then you go and do the performance and whoever you're working for is like, they're gonna decide that's not a great performer probably won't hire them again, or they're really great. We'll help them hire them a lot. I just connect with people on Twitter, like other performers on Twitter, and then I'm like, Hey, are you in Vegas? Sometimes it's just someone I've noticed on Twitter that I find attractive. Or maybe it's someone that I've heard of as being really good, a good performer. So I'll reach out to them or vice versa. And we just are like, cool, what, what kind of stuff do you want to make and when can we get together and pick a date. Also, the testing is obviously very important. We both have to go get tested. test is valid for two for 14 days, at which point you have to get another one.

Nick VinZant 4:54

I've always wondered that like so if somebody gets one right, and I don't think that there should be some massive stigma behind STIs are they like, this is something that exists in a lot of society? But are they? Are they essentially done in the industry?

Sinn Sage 5:06

Oh, God, no. So, yes, if you contract HIV, I would say you are essentially done in the industry. Um, I mean, you can work for yourself, you can do solo stuff, I mean, only fans is huge, like, you can still make a pretty good living, like not performing not working with other performers. Also, I can only speak from my experience, which is mainly like, it is queer, but there is a whole other side of the industry that is gay male, that I don't know as much about, so I'm not going to speak too much on it. But when it comes to the testing protocols, you know, and I think even still today, where we're at with HIV, that is a little bit stigmatized. I mean, if you are on the medication, and your viral load is down to zero, you cannot transmit it. You can't pass it on to others. So, you know, in those cases, we might need to revisit that at some point in the future, but the way things are now. Yeah, you want to be able to perform with other people.

Nick VinZant 6:08

Yeah, you specialize in queer content? How come you ventured into that specifically?

Sinn Sage 6:14

Oh, because I'm a queer person.

Nick VinZant 6:20

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're telling me.

Sinn Sage 6:26

So, uh, for me, it's just that, you know, when I got into the business, I was in a relationship with a sis male person. I was also very young. I've learned a lot about myself in the past 20 years, obviously. But, um, at that time, in that relationship model I was in, it wasn't even a question to me when I was like, Hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to get into this this work. I had told him when we first met, this is what I want to do. So he was aware. And then when I was moving forward into it, it wasn't even a question of, well, should I do boy girl, or should I not do girl it was just like, obviously, I'm not going to because I'm with my boyfriend. I'm not gonna fuck other dudes, but I kind of made it clear that I liked women that I was, you know, at that time, I think I identified as bisexual. So I knew that about myself. And I was like this, you know, at 18 I'm like, Well, is this okay? Like, you know, can I do this? You know, this is what I want to do with my life. Yeah. And so he's like, that's fine. You know, I don't mind. If you do scenes with women, that's cool. Um, for our relationship, it was terrible, toxic relationship on so many levels. But for me that that was how I got into the business. And then, when I finally was able to exit that relationship, I had already been doing this girl girl only lesbian work for, you know, eight or nine years. So I now have this freedom, right? To where I can make decide for myself, like, do I want to work with men now. And I have been on lots of sets of men, I had shot plenty of porn that had my net, like, done camera work for it. And I just wasn't, you know, it wasn't something that was enthusiastically like, yes, now I finally get to do this, I was just kind of more like, Okay, I'm going to consider this. I'm going to give myself some space from the breakup, it was very long relationship. And in that time, period, I think I just realized that it wasn't really for me to do boy girl. I felt that that was kind of the direction I wanted to stay on the path. I wanted to continue down, I expanded into working with trans people as well. So you know, for me, that's a big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to I want to improve that like visibility and like, give a bigger platform for like our differences as people and I'm just like one piece of that, but I'm

Nick VinZant 9:04

in that regard, right? Would your career have been? I'll put this in air quotes. Easier if you did boy girl from the very beginning.

Sinn Sage 9:14

So I'm not gonna say it would have been easier, in fact, have been friends with like a million other sex workers and hearing lots of stories and stuff. I honestly think it would be more difficult doing boy girl, um, and I'm not gonna say that that I'm speaking for everyone. I'm only speaking for myself, but there's a lot more you have to deal with in and um, I think that it was easier for me. I definitely would have have made and to this day make more money. No doubt about it. If I did, boy girl. I don't know. To me. That's not the most important thing. I think the most important thing is like staying true to yourself and the things you want to do and the things you want to be doing

Nick VinZant 9:59

when For your content, like when you're making your queer content, are you making it for other queer people? Or is it for straight people that maybe want to watch two girls? There's probably a better way. I should rephrase that. But you know

Sinn Sage 10:14

what I mean? Yeah, um, I think I'm just trying to make content for all types of people to enjoy. So, when we talk, especially about like, lesbian porn, especially mainstream lesbian porn, I think that we talk a lot about the male gaze. And I've been on so many different sets that like, I can tell when I'm on a set, where it's like, Hey, we're just trying to showcase like two women who are into each other having sex. Versus, hey, we need to see you penetrating her pussy with fingers or something, or hand you a dildo and say, Here, stick this in her, because we are making porn for the male gaze, and they need to see these type of actions happening. So to me, that's the difference between the content that is made for specifically like a heterosexual male to watch. And that's fine. And there's a space for those things, but I'm trying to make stuff that is like, That guy can enjoy it. But also, LGBT people can see themselves represented in that like authentic desire that authentic passion.

Nick VinZant 11:33

I think like my wife would describe it as Loving versus fucking.

Sinn Sage 11:37

Haha. That's one way of putting it. Yeah, I mean, I think I love i do i make loving scenes, and I make fucking scenes. But with what you're saying is like, um, you can put it that way too. I think

Nick VinZant 11:53

it makes sense. Right? Like, okay, so for me, right, right, watching adult movies, like there's certain things that I can speak from my perspective as a straight male. Like, there's stuff that I want to see. Right? So when you make things that for, from the queer perspective, or there's those kinds of things to like, Okay, people who are queer, they want to see this, this and this. And I guess what are those things?

Sinn Sage 12:17

I don't think we can do that. With queer people. Because it's such a massive community. It's a huge portion of the population. Obviously, it's a minority, but it's still, there's so much fluctuation and nuance of what people like and what people want to see and what they enjoy. So, you know, really, I'm not trying to tick off any boxes. Here, just do it based on what I want, and what the other performers that I'm working with want, from my experience. And with my fans, like they, they like to see from over here, too, all the way over there. I mean, everything in the middle,

Nick VinZant 12:54

is there kind of right? Because, you know, the algorithm is the algorithm. Is there certain queer content that does better than other kinds?

Sinn Sage 13:05

What I know what sells for me the best is definitely my strap on content. But that's because people know me for that.

Nick VinZant 13:15

Man. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sinn Sage 13:17

Yeah. And they know that I do it very well. And I do it better than a lot of other people. So I think that they come to me for that specifically. And I will say as far as my career content, like that is what sells the best. And I won't be like trance transport is having like a huge moment right now. It's getting really big. And I'm so happy to know that because I think it's been relegated it's been sidelined for so long.

Nick VinZant 13:49

Give me some leeway asking this question. Because I'm going to try to actually ask it from like an honest place of curiosity and interest, but I feel like I'm going to phrase things the wrong way. So when we talk about like, trans porn, that's generally men in men, women in women, like, you know this better than I guess, can you explain? Right? Can you explain? Explain that to me,

Sinn Sage 14:18

so a trans trans woman, and then there's trans men. So trans just means like, opposite. So that's why we came up with the word sis for people who don't identify as trans for people that identify as the sex they were assigned at birth. Because this means same and trans means like, opposite or whatever. So.

Nick VinZant 14:43

So a trans woman may have been a assigned male first, a biological male that is identifies as a woman is that right?

Sinn Sage 14:55

Um, the word like we use the word biological like

Nick VinZant 15:00

this, yeah, it's sticky, right? Just say assists. Okay? Yeah, this where I kind of,

Sinn Sage 15:07

I'm gonna tell you. Okay, yeah, I will be someone who was assigned male at birth, or assigned female at birth. Okay. And so now they are that they're the opposite of that. So a trans woman was assigned male at birth. And now a trans man was assigned female at birth and now identifies as a man. And then of course, we have non binary people who fall somewhere in between.

Nick VinZant 15:39

Do you think that can feed that confusion about it? Yeah, does that kind of has that kept it? Like what kept it because obviously, these people, and I don't mean that in that kind of way. But obviously, trans people have been with us for a very long time. Oh, is it just now? Like, why is it just now that we can openly talk about,

Sinn Sage 16:00

oh my gosh, because, you know, even that sometimes it seems like they're like, We are now in an age where I think the internet has helped a lot with us, too. We're being made aware that people are different. And that that is okay. So, whereas in the past, I mean, God, just think about the 90s. Like, Ellen coming out was this huge fucking deal just for her to be able to say I'm gay, not gay people have always existed. But it has been demonized. villainize punishable by death. To this day, there are countries on this planet where if you are gay, and they find out you will be executed. So this thing about being different being wrong, and about not understanding someone being afraid, which turns to hate. So I think now that we're just like, we're trying to make progress. We're trying to make economic progress. We're trying to make racial progress. We're trying to make gender and sexuality like, be accepting of human beings for being who they are. And not like other them. And you know, I think that we're, it's amazing how far we've come. But anytime progress happens, there's this like, very powerful backlash. And so we're obviously seeing that too. But I think that's the reason why, like, we're talking about it now. Because it is becoming more acceptable to just be who you are, and celebrate that.

Nick VinZant 17:43

But have you do you continue to see backlash from the kind of content that you put out there? Right, are there still you go to you go to John Smith, the head of a major porn company? And he says, None in my watch?

Sinn Sage 18:01

Oh, no, because the thing about porn is they follow the money, and they don't give a fuck what it is as long as it's profitable. So, I mean, I think when it comes to transforming the issue, previously, in past times, has been more along the lines of just fetishizing it and making it like, this is the little area for like the weirdos. Whereas now we're just like, No, these are actual human beings, and they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Because now we have, like, even just look at the awards show categories, like trans awards are being added as categories in places where they weren't before. And trans people are kind of demanding representation in this industry in a way that they never had before. So this is a big shift that's happening here in this industry. And I hope that it's like spreading out into the world, because that's the bigger goal. And that's kind of like what I want to be using my platform to do is, you know, yeah, I'm using porn to, like, hopefully help make the world a better place.

Nick VinZant 19:10

No matter what, no matter what somebody says, right, those two kind of statements is like, you follow the money. There's a there's a level of honesty there at the very least, right? And

Sinn Sage 19:23

a positive side effects.

Nick VinZant 19:25

Right, right. Yeah. And everybody, you know, people could say like, well, is adult films, the best way to spread the message while everybody watches them?

Sinn Sage 19:35

If I can explain to you like, the types of emails that I get from people. It's Yes, of course, there are times that people are like, Oh, hot mama with amazing ass. I love to watch you fuck. Cool. Thank you so much. That's awesome. But then I get I mean, over the past, you know, 15 years or so like these emails that I get from a lot from women who are just like I never watched porn. because it all looked like it was made for guys, and all it's fake, then I found your work. And I can't tell you how you have made me feel more empowered and free to truly express myself and come out of the cloud, how people told me to come out of the closet from watching my work, and that they're like, on their way to a better life for themselves, just from like, following me and the things I do and say, on the internet. And so, to me, that's like, the most fulfilling part, like, the money is good, because it's nice to be able to feed myself and have a house and stuff, but but the part that like, nourishes my soul, is this kind of feedback from people. And they're just like, you know, it might seem like it's nothing or like, it's just entertainment to get off to or whatever. And, you know, there's a lot of that. But at the same time, there are some people who are connecting with it on a deeper level, and it's very, very meaningful for them. And it just bothers me that so many people in the world can just discount that experience that real experiences some people have,

Nick VinZant 21:10

are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yes. Love that. When as a producer, where do you generally make most of the money off of a film, I

Sinn Sage 21:21

mean, my main places where I sell my content are actually clip stores. So I sell them as like, it's, it's funny, just like, the terminology is weird. Like, so there's a film, when I hear film, I think of like a four scene movie, like, you put four scenes together, you call that a film, call that a movie. And I do make those, I sell them on my website. And I, you know, money's, okay, it's like a bit of extra every month, but like, most of my income comes from selling the scenes that I make, like individually in clip stores. And if you don't make the money off of like just the scene, really, it's the fact that I have, you know, like 800 clips in my stores. And so every month that adds up to like, a good amount, and I produce custom videos. So I would say that's maybe like a third of the income, just like so the customer paying me directly to produce the same for them of what they want. I also then sell those on my club stores. And then the fan sites, so the only fans, that would be the other place? I guess the answer that question is really like, there is not one place where I make the most money. My income comes from having my hand in like several different pots

Nick VinZant 22:49

for a clip, right, like a good selling clip, that would sell how many?

Sinn Sage 22:54

If I sell maybe, you know, 20 or more of a clip, I would say it's sold pretty well. But it depends on the price of the clip too. So for example, I have this one clip that I made when I was first making clips, and it's my cheapest clip ever I think I sold for I think the lowest you can charge is like 399. Um, and it's a very niche sort of fetish. And I've sold like, maybe 500 copies of that, maybe more, I don't even know. But I think that's because it was so accessible and cheap. But then I have a clip, you know, that's maybe like 30 bucks, because it's like a 40 minute like lesbian clip with all different sex acts and stuff like that. You know, and so, if I only sell five of those, well, that's okay. Because it was more expensive clip.

Nick VinZant 23:48

It's a numbers game at the end. Yeah.

Sinn Sage 23:52

It's like this gaping hole. It's like a sarlacc pit if you know Star Wars, and you just have to, like throw content into it. And it is hungry, and it needs to be fed multiple times a week, and you just do it. You just gotta keep pumping out the content. And that's how you make a sustainable living.

Nick VinZant 24:13

Do you ever feel like oh my god, I can't have sex anymore though.

Sinn Sage 24:17

I think I'm just excited to be having sex with someone.

Nick VinZant 24:23

I think we all feel like that at the end of the day, no matter what your gender or sexuality or just all excited to be having sex with you and we all have that in common and we can cherish that and move forward as society a favorite type of scene.

Sinn Sage 24:41

My favorite type of scene is really just working is when the other performer is as into me as I am into them. So I like oh, and other performers like enthusiastic when they're like excited to be working with me. Man, especially when they just like say one nice thing about me being because listen, every time I approach a scene with a with another performer, I'm like, Oh my God, I hope they think I'm like pretty enough to be having sex with or I hope they think I'm, you know, like, hot enough or whatever. Like, I always still feel like shit, man, I can't believe I get to do this, like, so. Anytime they can give me a little a little nugget that says it like they want to be doing this with me, then I'm like, Yes. And those are my favorite types of

Nick VinZant 25:37

men most What is your most frequent request? Oh,

Sinn Sage 25:42

like strap on? For sure. Yeah, okay, that's probably it.

Nick VinZant 25:47

I think this for the same person to your most interesting request.

Sinn Sage 25:51

I've done a lot of really weird and interesting customs. Um, one of them, for example, was this German fellow, and he wanted another girl and myself in lingerie, and we put on rubber dish gloves. And we have like a bucket of soapy water. And then we have these little Monster High dolls are kind of like, like mini Barbie kind of dolls. And we like punch and slap the dolls. And when we twist their hair, the dolls are like, that's how they get off sexually. And we're also dunking them in the water. And like abusing them kind of. And that was like a 30 minute video. And then the second one he got was basically the same thing. But then he also wanted us to cook eggs on the stove. And I guess, like taught the dolls that they didn't get to have any of the eggs.

Nick VinZant 26:55

There is no limit to my personal opinion. As long as you're not hurting people against their will, however you get down is however you get down

Sinn Sage 27:04

100% As long as everyone consents to it, I don't. Yeah, I really don't care. As long as it's all consenting adults, you go ahead and do it. And you asked me to make a custom. And I have no problem doing that.

Nick VinZant 27:18

Well, I guess when was the last time though, that you like you were surprised? Like who? I had never heard of that before?

Sinn Sage 27:24

10 or 10 years ago?

Nick VinZant 27:27

Oh, good. Point, right. Yeah,

Sinn Sage 27:29

I would say that that. Just what the dish glove one that I just described described to you. I had never heard of that before. So that was maybe five years ago. But at the same time, too. There are like little fetishes within that video that I did. I have heard of and made lots of like, you know, I kind of figured it's all psychological, right? So in in my head, I'm like, Okay, this guy's mom used to do dishes with these rubber dish gloves. And so that's why he likes the squeaky sound. And he wanted us to use Monster High dolls because he wants to pretend like we're giant Tess's. And that's like a very common fetish. So you know, I'm just kind of piecing together a little things to sort of understand what we're making. So even though it's not, for me, um, I think that's why we make pretty good custom videos is because we try to understand like, what it is that the fan is asking for, sometimes the quote unquote normal customs are like the most boring ones for me to make, or just not interesting. You know, a Goi is like a jerk off instruction. And I made so many of those and they're very tedious and they're all the same and that's boring.

Nick VinZant 28:48

This one, okay, I don't know if you do this or not, but this person send this thing in. What's better? Okay. I was raised not to say this word. So I can literally not get this word out of my mouth. But it starts with See, there's

Sinn Sage 29:04

always a concern. Yes. My favorite word.

Cancer. I was like,

Nick VinZant 29:11

I wonder where's that? But that kind of busting or ball busting?

Sinn Sage 29:18

Well, I so I don't make ballbusting videos because I don't have a model. So I would need a male model who was okay with getting kicked in the balls. But I don't get asked for that either. So it's not like I don't make them because I have a problem with it. I've done it. I've performed in ballbusting videos before spine. And it's wild. Like to me that is wild. Like man, I keep this guy and he's like, Do it harder. Do her. I'm like, okay, and I keep him so hard in the balls. Like he started bleeding. He's like, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. I was just like, fucking Wow, this is insane. But I'm like, as I want to come back the videos we make. I mean I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the internet.

Nick VinZant 30:07

How do you make what makes it a good one?

Sinn Sage 30:12

A dedication and care to detail, we do close ups of the the action. And we get facial reactions, we add in sound effects. So like so my husband is my editor, a lot of combusting companies like leave one of these things out. But we do it all. So we get several angles of a particular kick or punch. And then we have facial reactions. So there's a lot of action is very dynamic. And then takes my husband anywhere from three to six hours to edit one of those because he is literally sitting there going like frame by frame for each connection that happens. And putting in like different kickin punch sound effects, like they're all different. And it just, it makes it look like a real movie, you're getting that real experience out of it. And then like when we we do the kicks, it's always barefoot. And we do make connection. But it's there's like, it's basically, I also produce a lot of like a wrestling and fighting type of content as well. And you just learn. It's like doing stunt work. It's like being a stunt worker, or whatever. So you learn techniques and ways of pulling your punches, pulling your kicks. So it's like they do make contact, but you're not going like full force. So it just looks really real. And I got in that sound effect. That sounds really real, the reactions are really real. And so yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:57

Is it from it now? Who's wanting to see it? Or the men wanting to see it? Or do the women want? Like good? Is it for men or for women?

Sinn Sage 32:05

We're talking about a very specific fetish. So the people who, like I'm not producing this for myself, and I'm not producing this like to be like, hey here for mass consumption, I guess, right? I'm producing for people who specifically go to a site like clips for sale, and they type in the search bar cut bussing, and that is what they want to see. I would say, if I were to guess it's 99.5%. A male audience.

Nick VinZant 32:41

That's honestly pretty much all the questions that I have is kind of what's what's coming up next for you.

Sinn Sage 32:47

Yeah, so Okay, so my studio produced a trans lesbian movie called sins, trans lesbian lovers. And that came out, I want to say like September, and that got nominated for an AVN award. So that was very exciting. Um, I will say that is my first production of a film that I made, that has gotten nominated for an avian award. I've won two avian awards, but that was my work as a performer. So do not think I have a chance of winning because I'm up against, you know, studios that have $20,000 cameras and shit, but just the fact that like, I'm getting that recognition as a creator and a performer for that film is very special to me. So that's very exciting. Those awards take place at the end of January. Um, and beyond that, I don't know. Whatever. I got my only fans going on, I put content on there every single day. I'm producing content and clips all the time for my many vids store, and my clips for sale store. And my website is sin dash sage calm. And that is where you can go and inquire about custom videos. I have an FAQ. It's very extensive answers all the questions about customs and a form you can fill out. There's information about all the films that I've been there, too. And, um, yeah, I think that's it.