Ventriloquist Jack Williams is bringing new life to an old art. His standup routines and videos have entertained millions and sparked a growing interest in ventriloquism. We talk how to become a ventriloquist, the hardest words to say and the last time someone thought his puppet was actually alive. Then, we put Barney and Yoda against Elmo and Grover as we countdown the Top 5 Puppets.
Jack Williams: 01:20ish
Pointless: 29:09ish
Top 5: 39:07ish
https://www.tiktok.com/@puppetjack (Jack Williams TikTok)
https://www.instagram.com/puppetjack_/ (Jack Williams Instagram)
Topics we discuss:
How to become a ventriloquist
How long does it take to become a ventriloquist
The hardest words for a ventriloquist to say
The most expensive ventriloquist dummies
The most famous ventriloquists
How to throw your voice
Jack Williams on TikTok
Interview with Ventriloquist Jack Williams
Nick VinZant 0:10
Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, ventriloquism and puppets
Jack Williams 0:19
being a ventriloquist, it's it's kind of like a different life and like a lot of normal lives. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the BS with ds. So you want to say Dask doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him, there might be the possibility that you might not be good either. And that's that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian.
Nick VinZant 0:59
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because if you're like me, you want to know how they do that. This is ventriloquist Jack Williams, I think the first question has to be right, obviously, like, how do you do this?
Jack Williams 1:23
Um, well, I would say being a ventriloquist. It's it's kind of like a different life. And like a lot of normal lives. It takes a lot of dedication, but just the actual ventriloquism aspect of doing it is mostly all about using your tongue, and breath control, and using your diaphragm. So I do a lot of tongue twister exercises. And I usually will, you know, put my tongue on the roof of my mouth when I'm trying to say a word. And that's pretty much all of what ventriloquism is, it's just all it's all about, like just using your tongue and kind of making sure your lips aren't you know, shaky or anything like that, and making it really steady. It's a long explanation, like I've been doing this for, I want to say 13 years now, ever since I was like, 12 years old. So it's been a it's been a long journey, for sure.
Nick VinZant 2:28
How long did it take before you got good at it like good enough, where you could actually do this kind of in public kind of thing.
Jack Williams 2:36
You know, it's interesting. I, I would say that I when you cuz I feel like when you're young, you can kind of pick up things and learn things a lot quicker than when you're older. And so when I started I would say I didn't really, because I started performing. I started at 12. And I started performing when I was 14. And looking back at those tapes of me performing I performed at a ventriloquist convention. So that's kind of like how I got introduced to it, I would go to these conventions, where there was about 500 ventriloquist all in one place. And it's in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And so in my mind, I was like, wow, that's this is like a normal thing. So that's that really was what got me into it. And so I felt comfortable performing around other ventriloquists. And I would even say a 14 I was I was pretty decent performing. But it I think I really started getting good. Once I moved out to LA and started doing like comedy clubs and stuff like that, because that was like the real test of okay. You have to be funny, and you have to do lip control and all that stuff. So I'd say probably like, where I felt like I was like a kind of more rounded performer like in my life, like 22, I would say.
Nick VinZant 3:57
So is it kind of like magicians where there's a secret and you don't necessarily tell people or is it? Pretty much you can look up on the internet like how to become a ventriloquist?
Jack Williams 4:08
Yeah, I would say that most ventriloquists are self taught. I haven't met a single ventriloquist that had a teacher or somebody like teaching them ventriloquism unless it's sometimes pageant you know people in pageants when they want to do a ventriloquist act they'll have a teacher but I'd say most ventriloquist who just want to do it as an art form are all self taught. Like I I started out what got me into ventriloquism was watching goose bumps the the one with the Slappy dummy. And I, my friend was so afraid of the dummy and I wasn't afraid. I just thought like I want one of those. And I asked my dad I was like, Do you have a ventriloquist dummy? And he was just like, yes, but he actually did have one in his garage, so I started practicing with that it was like an old Jerry Mahoney dummy that Paul Winchell used to use ventriloquist from his childhood. And so I just started practicing with that, you know, scaring my brother kind of just walking around the house doing like stupid little acts. And yeah, I would say most of intro liquids kind of start out that way, just kind of experimenting and just talking to themselves as weird as that sounds.
Nick VinZant 5:29
Were you surprised that your dad had a ventriloquist dummy in the house?
Jack Williams 5:33
Looking back at it, I think I should have been surprised. But as a 12 year old, I think I was just really happy that he had one.
Nick VinZant 5:40
Yeah, I could definitely see that as being one of those things where you're like, Oh, awesome. You've got it. And then later in life, like why didn't
Jack Williams 5:46
Yes, exactly.
Nick VinZant 5:47
It's not your little unexpected way.
Jack Williams 5:50
That's not like, I don't think every parent has a doll like that talks.
Nick VinZant 5:55
So when you do it, right, so are you talking the same way? You're just doing it more? Your tongue is essentially performing the duties of both your mouth and your tongue? Does this make any sense? You're essentially talking without moving? Yeah,
Jack Williams 6:13
exactly. So when I'm talking and doing ventriloquism, it's especially on stage it's kind of like compared to juggling because sometimes I've had instances where I will have will, the the puppets voice will come out of my mouth, and I won't even subconscious I'll be like, oh, like I just, I just did the puppets voice. I wasn't trying to do that. And, but so it's like, it's doing comedy and focusing on moving your lips and controlling a puppet. So when I'm doing it, it's almost now it's like second nature. It's like the two kind of brains basically like the puppet brain and my brain. But I also have to keep like conscious of not moving my mouth as well. It's like a constant conversation. So if I'm like, hey, hey, what's up? Nothing? You good? Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, like, it's, it's just like this back and forth, like dialogue as far as like, just how, like, you would talk to somebody, you know, it's confusing. There's a lot of little parts to it that you kind of learn as, as you you know, get into like, I'd say, like your five of being a ventriloquist.
Nick VinZant 7:28
Now, does it? Do you have some kind of your vocal cords are special? You have this uniquely shaped tongue? You're what? Is there something physical.
Jack Williams 7:41
Um, I would say that it's it's straight practice, because I don't think I was born with any like, unique tongue or anything like that. I would say that. I was always like a performer as a kid, like I did acting and other stuff before ventriloquism, but the reason that I pursued it, as I knew that I was good at it, like I knew that I was better at ventriloquism than acting. And I knew that if I didn't, like capitalize on it, and something that I was genuinely truly good at, because you can be a good actor. And, you know, never make it or never kind of make an impact. I figured if I if I'm just good at ventriloquism, this is something that not many people do. And I really, really enjoy the art form that then I might as well go for. I think it's just like being passionate about anything. There's, there's different vocal techniques that you can do to warm up. Like usually I'll breathe in deep so I can have my airflow coming from my diaphragm out through my mouth, because a lot of times what's happens on stage is I'll get to throaty. And sometimes I'll run out of air, if that makes sense. So I'll be on stage and I'll be telling a joke and it'll be and I have to like take a breath and like, you know, so it's really good to it's kind of like being an opera singer. Yeah, yeah, you have to like have all your air come out or else like so I never done longer than a 30 minutes set. And I see even Trilok was do like an hour and a half and I'm like, Man, that's that's really hard to do like a whole hour and a half because you just have to have constant lung control and, and breath control as far as being a performer. I've heard of interreligious not speaking to anybody, the entire day up until their performance because they just want to save all of their vocal energy.
Nick VinZant 9:43
Why is it so much harder just because of the way that you have to speak kind of from the diaphragm or is it just it's because
Jack Williams 9:49
you're, it's because I feel like it's more concentrated. Like I honestly am, like, completely out of breath like, you know, just exhausted After a show.
Nick VinZant 10:01
So one thing I've noticed I've never like, looked at a ventriloquist, right? Their mouth always seems to be just a little bit open, does your mouth have to be just a little bit open? Or is that like, this is just what happens.
Jack Williams 10:13
If I feel like if your mouth completely closed, it'll just, you know, kind of just be like mumbling sounds, but I feel like the true ventriloquist can get their mouth to be slightly open, but it looks still a little natural. You see a lot of ventriloquist, like smiling and they'll be like, Hey, how's it going? It's good to see, you know, and, and it just doesn't look natural. Because they just they just have this big smile on the whole time. So I tried to like mix it up, I'll try to like have a neutral face. And I think something's funny. If the public thinks me funny. I'll kind of like smile while they're talking. And, you know, just just try and try to keep the face as natural as possible.
Nick VinZant 10:53
So give me some leeway on this question. Because I think I'm gonna phrase it terribly and possibly. offensively. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to ask the question, right. So like, is being a ventriloquist? I'll be dramatic and easier path to stardom, so to speak. Then not like, right, like if you're going to be a comedian. It's really hard to be a comedian. But it's maybe a little bit easier if you're a ventriloquist comedian?
Jack Williams 11:19
I would say no, I would say yes, and no, because the reason I think it's harder is because you have to dedicate first to being a ventriloquist, right? So if you're going down the road of being a ventriloquist, and you're not fully dedicated, and there might be the possibility that you might not be good, either. And that's, that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian, in my opinion, because it has a way worse, like, Oh, like this guy. Like, it's just even explaining it to people that don't know, like, what I do when I tell them. It's like, I feel like I almost constantly, like just get this Rand like this judgment, I'd say, you know, and that's, that's something that doesn't happen when you're a comedian. When you're like, Oh, I'm, I'm a stand up. Everyone's like, Oh, that's cool. Like what clubs you perform that when I'm like, oh, like I'm a ventriloquist. They're like, oh, like, do you like, talk to your dolls? When no one's around? You don't? I mean, it just comes with its different territory. It comes with a whole set of different questions and judgments. Why do
Nick VinZant 12:39
you think that is that people kind of are like, that reaction you talked about? Like, oh, you're a ventriloquist. Like, why do you? Where do you think that comes from?
Jack Williams 12:48
Um, I think it comes from the whole doll thing. I think that a lot of people don't like dolls. And they, they're afraid of them. And some people just don't like that. Also, I would say, some people think I would say it's kind of more of like a, like a second rate kind of thing of comedy, as far as like, prop comedy. So some people are like, Oh, you're using a prop. It's kind of like a crutch on stage. You're not just, you know, going out there being yourself.
Nick VinZant 13:26
How important is the puppet? Great. Like, do you put a lot of thought into like, Okay, I want it to look like this. It has to be like, this size. Like, is there anything that has to be specific about the puppet?
Jack Williams 13:38
Dude, I would say that, you know, it's, it's a weird a lot of ensure liquids get way too wrapped up in the puppet, and they'll forget that you actually have to be funny, and you'll have to be good at manipulating the puppet and, and, you know, like making it look alive. Because you could take a sock, you could take your hand, you could take an orange and make it look real, if you're if you're just a good ventriloquist. So the puppet itself is important, but I'd say the more important aspect is being funny and just being a good ventriloquist, because there has been ventriloquists. Some of the best ventriloquist has have used very, like not expensive things very like low end things and made them look really real. Like one of my favorite ventriloquist Nina Conti. She's a ventriloquist in the UK, and she uses a little monkey puppet that was like a souvenir at like the Rainforest Cafe. Like, as far as just buying a good character. That's something that's really difficult to do for ventriloquism because it's it ranges like there's some puppets like that are okay that you could get for Like 30 bucks and then there's ventriloquist dummies that are $6,000 that a lot of in Sherlock was had and they're more like collectors. They have a collection of in Sherlock was dummies that are 1000s of dollars that I wish I could have. But they have them because that's that's just what they do. They just collect ventriloquist dummies.
Nick VinZant 15:23
But there's there's not. There's not anything in the dummy or the puppet that helps you, right? It's not like this thing. $6,000 because it's got super modulate and voice deconstruction, right? It's, there's nothing the dummy or the puppet is actually doing, right?
Jack Williams 15:41
No, exactly. The having a very complex ventriloquist dummy won't really help you as a ventriloquist. It can help the performance aspect of it if you want something with more animations. Like there are some really cool ventriloquist dummies that have moving eyes raising eyebrows. There's ones that stick out their tongue. There's ones that can make their upper lip go up. And those are the ones that that the most expensive and Sherlock was dummy that I've heard of, was like, 30 5000s. Yeah, because because of the rarity of it, and because of how many animations it can do like its nose can light up red. It's like hair can go up. There's some crazy ventriloquist dummies. The coolest like, dummy place that I've been to this like sounds funny, like dummy place. But the coolest place I've been to is, is there's a ventriloquist dummy Museum in in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And it's just like, right, well, let's see little buildings. And I mean, if you had a phobia of like dolls, that this would be like your absolute nightmare. If you went there, and you you walk in, and there's just probably like 50 or 60 dummies just sitting in chairs just kind of like lifeless, and they all have so much history. So if you're a ventriloquist, you can take your puppet there and kind of put it to rest as people would say, because it's it has all the dummies and all their former ventriloquists that used to use them all kind of laid out. So they have like, Jeff Dunham's old puppets, Terry faders. All all the ventriloquist and then there are some genuinely scary dummies. And I don't really get scared of puppets that easily, but there are some dummies that are from I want to say, either the 17 or 1800s that have real human teeth and real human hair. And that that is where I'm like, Okay, that is kind of that is pretty scary.
Nick VinZant 17:59
Yeah, right, I can kind of see why people have a certain like, we'd like, you know, we love to, like anthropomorphize animals. But if it's too much like us, then it's like, ooh, we kind of don't like that. Exactly. And that's
Jack Williams 18:13
where I think that sometimes the ventriloquist dummy is a little bit more beneficial than a puppet in some instances, like I noticed when when I was performing at clubs more when I would use, say, like a bird puppet to tell human jokes, it wouldn't they wouldn't land as well as if I had like the human puppet telling the same jokes, because people are like, they can see that it's a human, if that makes sense. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's more root there. It's more relatable. That's like a guy up there. You know, they kind of forget that it's fake a little bit.
Nick VinZant 18:50
So, I guess two part question, can you make a full time living as a ventriloquist? I'm assuming the answer is yes, because there's pretty famous ventriloquist. But let's say you're a level comedian. Does an A level comedian is he going to get or she going to get paid more than an A level ventriloquist?
Jack Williams 19:09
Um, he like that really depends. I would say it's definitely if you're a good ventriloquist, like an A level of influence that's really good and has good routines. It's definitely easier than an A level comedian just because it's, it's just a more of a unique act, I would say. Like, I remember I was doing a bigger show at the Hollywood Palladium a long time ago, like probably like three or four years ago. And I would just do all these open mics to prepare and you know, some of them were good, and then others were just like dead silence. Or if I would get I be happy if I got like one of the comedians in the audience, because it's basically all comedians watching other comics go up and perform. And so when they see like a guy with a doll on stage, they're like, Wow, this is like this. is different, you know, I've never seen this before ever.
Nick VinZant 20:03
Yeah, that would be brutal audience, right? It's every because you're filled, it's filled with people who don't want to laugh. 100% Yeah, you know, it's kind of like that. He's not better.
Jack Williams 20:12
And yeah, and a lot of the times, I almost felt like, Man, I don't know, what's better practice because if, as far as a stand up goes, it's less of an act and more of being genuine on stage. I sort of tried to be genuine. But what I do is, is an act. It is like acting, if that makes sense. But yeah, yeah, they end up is being real and being kind of like raw on stage, where if people can see those funny sides of you, were I, a lot of the times I was like, Man, I could have just practiced this at home, and I would have felt less sad.
Nick VinZant 20:52
Are you ready for some listener submitted harder questions? Yes. What is the hardest word letter or sound to say? What is the easiest,
Jack Williams 21:01
it's different? For a lot of insurer liquids. A lot of info liquids struggle with the letter B. I feel like I do well, with the letter B, like basketball. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the bees with ds. So you would say gasket doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B, in your brain. So you're saying the letter D, but thinking B, and you putting it together, and you're like basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, you know, you kind of just think of the letter that so that's what I'm doing is I'm thinking of the letter for me. I don't really think that B's that hard. But I think the letter P is really hard. For pee, you're replacing it with a tee. Like the hardest word for me is people because it's two Ps. People, he people. And it's I really do not I try to never write that word in my act. A easy word would be words that you just words that you don't have to like, move, move your lips for. So you could say something like, like, son, you don't have to move your lips for son just son, you know. You could say hand hand you know you don't like it's just any word that you don't have to really move your lips for because you have to move your lips for like letters like W, B, P and M.
Nick VinZant 22:42
And then I'm imagining that when you sit down and you write your act, so to speak, like your ventriloquist are purposely ooh, I don't want to say that word like I need to. I can't say people have to say, individuals or something like that, like, well, you specifically kind of right around it.
Jack Williams 22:59
For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I won't realize it because I won't be doing the ventriloquism until after. And I because and then I will realize, oh, I use people too much. I got I got to replace that word, or I use everyone too much got to replace that word.
Nick VinZant 23:19
Who's the Michael Jordan of ventriloquism? Ooh,
Jack Williams 23:23
alive or dead? Like give us both? Okay, um, I would say probably the like, the best of all time would just be Edgar Bergen just because he kind of revolutionized it. As far as a in vaudeville era, he he was mostly known for radio and a lot of people thought that his puppet Charlie McCarthy was a real person on the radio until he started doing shows, and live performances and it would come in and then that was kind of the joke. They, you know, they saw that he had a ventriloquist dummy. And so he kind of revolutionized the INS as far as like doing it in vaudeville, and performing in like the live circuit in in his Yeah, ventriloquism was around before stand up, I would say because he you know, he did that whole vaudeville era type of stuff. So I would say him for sure. Just because he was in movies. He was huge in the 50s. Um, but as far as alive today, I would say for it's it's definitely Jeff Dunham as far as somebody who has just reached that like insane level of fame of events that a ventriloquist has never reached before. Like Jeff Jones more famous than any ventriloquist ever, and I think that he kind of downplays it anytime he does an interview or anything like that, but he definitely no one's ever been been like that mainstream. I think he has like seven comedy specials. And I remember I was watching a show at the Greek theatre. And it's just his performance ability to be able to like get through. Like I said, that long stretch of time without getting vocal. You winded is just insane. Do people
Nick VinZant 25:21
ever try to call you out? Like I saw your mouth move?
Jack Williams 25:27
Um, I would say not really, because I don't really mess up that much. I would say I and that's kind of cocky of me to say, but I've never had a moment where I've really like moved my lips, I would be able to say like, if I if I really, if I did really mess up, I'd be like, Yeah, I definitely, you know, could see my lips moving. But I tried to make it so it's, you know, I You can't I'd say that's the whole that's the whole goal. I yeah, I've never had anyone call me out for something. Like, when I was a kid. Yeah. When I was like, doing those shows, there would be like judges. They'd be like, Oh, you could work on your, your your lip movement. And that just like stuck with me. I was like, this will never happen again.
Nick VinZant 26:17
Do you ever accidentally do it in real life? Like not to mess with people, but it's just purely an accident?
Jack Williams 26:23
Honestly, no, I never for sure. I've never accidentally done it. And every time I'm doing ventriloquism, I It's like a muscle like, you know, you're doing it.
Nick VinZant 26:33
Yeah, that makes sense. Right? What is people like if you do it on the street, right, when somebody is not suspecting it, what's generally people's kind of reaction?
Jack Williams 26:42
Oh, they're like, generally just like, confused, sometimes scared. And, you know, I have the video that really blew up on Tik Tok that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him. And when I told him, I was just like a video and I was a ventriloquist. Then he understood, so a lot of people don't really understand it. But then other people just kind of think that there's something wrong with me.
Nick VinZant 27:14
Has anybody ever thought that like the dummy was real?
Jack Williams 27:17
No, no one's ever thought the domain was real. I have had, I have had people say like, wow, like, I really forgot that you were with a puppet. Like, I really thought that, you know, that puppet. Like, I thought I forgot that you were controlling it. So they kind of it's that whole illusion kind of thing as far as like the magic aspect of it. And I have had an old woman come up to me after a show. And say, I you know, I loved your act. I couldn't watch you the whole time because I'm have a fear of dolls. So I haven't looked down the whole time. But I heard everything you said. And it was funny.
Nick VinZant 27:55
It's an it's a good compliment. But an interesting compliment, right? Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything else you think we missed? Or what's what's coming up next for you?
Jack Williams 28:06
I'm about to hit a million followers on Tiktok. So that's exciting. Really excited about that. It's been an insane journey. And it's definitely really, really helped my career as far as you know, just accelerating it forward, and all that stuff. And yeah, just just writing a whole new act right now getting back into the swing of performing live shows, again, now that COVID restrictions are lifted in LA, as far as in most comedy clubs, some are still a little bit. You still have to have a vaccine. But you know, that just goes without saying for a comedy club, at least. Yeah, so I'm excited to get back into the swing of things and just start performing again.