High-Altitude Mountaineer Lotta Hintsa

She can barely breathe, the avalanche snow reaches past her waist and it’s 40 below. But Mountaineer Lotta Hinsta couldn’t be happier. We talk mountaineering, the dangers of alpine life, breaking into the boys club and how she went from model to mountaineer. Then we countdown the Top 5 Popular but Unpopular Things.

Lotta Hintsa: 01:51ish

Pointless: 40:35

Top 5: 58:01ish

https://www.instagram.com/lottahintsa (Lotta Hinsta Instagram)

https://www.instagram.com/theswimfluencenetwork (SwimFluenceNetwork)

https://www.instagram.com/arlasuomi (Arla Suomi - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/up2unutrition (UP2U Nutrition - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/vitaminwell (Vitamin Well - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/karitraa (Kari Traa Sportswear - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/julbo_eyewear (Julbo Eyewear - Lotta’s Sponsor)

https://www.instagram.com/donbowie (Don Bowie Instagram - Photos Courtesy of)

Interview with High-Altitude Mountaineer Lotta Hintsa

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, high altitude mountaineering, and the most popular, unpopular things,

Lotta Hintsa 0:23

oh, I absolutely loved the suffering. It's like that's how you go there, you would feel so alive when you're just so focused on in the moment like, and then the Snowbird just collapsed underneath me. And somehow I was able to just get my ice axe in my crampons and hold on to the row and above 8000 meters, you have about 24 hours until you die, you actually get to be yourself, your eye for one second, I didn't feel too short, or to this or to that, like what you always kind of feel like you're trying to measure up to some sort of sort of standard.

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest spends her life climbing some of the highest mountains on Earth. And she has this fascinating story, not just about what it's really like when you're 8000 meters 27,000 feet up there, but about not letting what people think you are, dictate the things that you want to do. Because the more uncomfortable conditions get, the happier she is. This is high altitude mountaineer lotta hintsa. When you look at like the difference between saying the backyard mountain, right, the 8000 9000 foot one, how is that different than the kinds of mountains that you're climbing when you're really getting up there.

Lotta Hintsa 2:02

So the difference is mostly the amount of oxygen that you can get into your system. So it's about 50% of the atmospheric pressure, pressure, sea level. So our body needs the oxygen to function aerobically. And when you're doing long distance, what you usually do on the mountains, it you use the aerobic system in your body a lot. So the higher you go, the harder it's function.

Nick VinZant 2:31

Is there a point where like, you're going up, say 4000 meters, 5000 meters, 6000 meters? Is there a certain Is it a gradual thing? Or is there a point where you're like, Oh, you suddenly really notice,

Lotta Hintsa 2:44

it's quite a bit about a climatization, as well. So our body can adjust to high altitude and the lack of oxygen pretty pretty well, it depends on a person as well. I have I seem to have the ability to acclimatized pretty easily to higher altitudes.

Nick VinZant 3:05

How long does it take you to kind of get used to the change to the higher altitude,

Lotta Hintsa 3:09

it takes about two weeks to acclimatized entirely. Then again, of course, this depends on the altitude as well, above 6500 meters, your body doesn't acclimatized anymore. So after that, the higher you go, the faster your body will just shut down.

Nick VinZant 3:27

Now that's the death zone, right? Is that the? Yes,

Lotta Hintsa 3:31

that is exactly the death zone. And above 8000 meters, you have about 24 hours until you die if you're not on supplemental oxygen. So a lot of climbers use supplemental oxygen to climb high. I've never used it. I never will. And just my style of climbing, going up against the mountain.

Nick VinZant 3:57

How did you kind of get into this,

Lotta Hintsa 4:00

a lot of my childhood I spent in Ethiopia. And we lived in Addis Abeba, which is like a mountain region itself. I just completely fell in love with the mountains in there. Finland where I'm from is completely flat. And in general, I've just always been I've loved the outdoors and had this like need to get to higher levels. So or just higher it's higher elevations when I was a kid my mom always tell the story, how I brought this really high chair like they had guests over. So I brought this chair in front of the earth yeah in front of everyone and just climbed on top of it and was like very proud of it. How I know climbed this high chair. I was to

Nick VinZant 4:47

know like when did you really get into the high alpine stuff like when did you start doing that?

Lotta Hintsa 4:55

Well, the extreme high altitude which is considered to be above 5000 meters. That was, Well, my first mountain like that was Kilimanjaro, which is basically I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but it's a bit of a walk in the park. And it felt like that to me, I was just really excited to be there. And because you do feel the effects of the altitude, my then husband, he started puking and feeling really, really sick. And I was just like, oh, this is so awesome. And this is so fun. And I just didn't. I mean, of course, I was trying to be nice to him and empathetic towards him. But it was just, I thought it was just so cool to feel the challenge of what it brings to you that you're not getting enough oxygen, because there's ways to mitigate that to like, the way you breathe, the way you move, you need to be very strategic when you go up there, especially if you're doing it without supplemental oxygen. So 2016 was, was the year I got into the higher and then has been higher and higher and higher. And

Nick VinZant 6:14

for for somebody who's never been up that hot. Like what is that like?

Lotta Hintsa 6:19

Well, last summer, me and my climbing partner splash nowadays life partner as well slash my coach, we were on Broad Peak, which is above 26,000 feet. And for the first three weeks, we were the only two people on the mountain, we climbed without ropes, if we had used ropes, we put them in ourselves, we always carry our own stuff, it's very independent. But when you're when we're tackling a lot of snow, like much more than usual. So how I described it to someone who asked how it feels to climb a mountain, just the two of you, when you're Breaking Trail, which is like exhausting, especially when the snow is like up to your waist at times, you can't breathe as much oxygen as you would like. So it's kind of like having three face masks on top of each other. And then you're carrying almost half of your weight. And then you're doing like step ups onto a bench at a gym. With with the weight on and with the masks on. And sometimes the bench just collapses underneath you. So do that for I don't know, 10,000 reps. And then you get to camp one.

Nick VinZant 7:46

But then you get to camp one, right? Then you get to the first part of like four or five camps, I'm assuming Yeah. Is for

God, that sounds really hard. So now to be able to do this, is it simply you need to have this amount of physical training and everybody in anybody have average athletic ability? If they put in the time training? They could accomplish this? Or do you need to have there's something about you, your body the way that you're designed? Do you have to have that? Right? Can you just work and get here or is like, look, some people genetically can do this. And some people just can't,

Lotta Hintsa 8:27

I do believe that there is quite a bit of genetic predisposition. Because even when, so the way I started climbing, like I just dropped everything else sold my house and just started climbing like full time. That was three and a half years ago after my current coach, Don Bowie. He's one of the best climbers in the world. And we ended up on the same mountain in same base camp. And almost no one climbed that year, we were on Aconcagua, which is the highest mountain outside of the Himalayas, almost 7000 meters. And we made it into like, a record time, like in really good time, from camp to, to the summit in super bad conditions. We were the 10th and the 11th or something like that, during that season, who had even made it to the summit, because the conditions were just really bad. And I just kind of floated it. I hadn't been training methodically for for like, this sport. And he was just like, I don't care who you're going to climb with, but you need to start climbing hard. And if you give me a year, I'll make you a beast. So it's like, just a second I'll do a little arrangement. And, and yeah, so I got a few sponsors. I was Miss Finland in 2013. And I was in the like, I've been doing quite a bit of work in the public eye in entertainment industry. For at that point for quite a few years, so I had connections. And my first sponsors for the year were a lingerie company and makeup company, super food company and a jewelry company. So not the basic or the usual, high altitude climbers.

Nick VinZant 10:21

Has that then as you've kind of gotten into the community has that been? Have they received you as one of their own? Or have you always been like that? Here comes the model here comes to social media girl, or have do you think that they've kind of influenced or accepted you? And I don't mean that, like, you shouldn't be, you know what I mean?

Lotta Hintsa 10:42

No, I get it. Yeah. Well, one of my goals in life or kind of like themes in life has been just breaking barriers or glass ceilings, I feel like whatever I've done in my life, whether it's been working as a very young store manager or jumping from, I graduated from business and economics, and then suddenly became Miss Finland. And just like, I've had quite quick turn, turnarounds, or people have felt like they're quick turnarounds. But for me, it has all been based in curiosity. And where I've felt like my attraction point in life is and it's adventure, and it's going towards fear and it's going towards challenges. So So yeah, I've, I've definitely noticed that there is there is this. Like, I've been called a mascot. Like when I was doing a winter expedition on broadpeak with two of the best climbers in the world, people outside, like we were three people on this mountain, it was around, I'd say, I don't know Fahrenheit that well, but I know minus 40 Celsius and minus 40 Fahrenheit or the say, so it was around that temperature. We're climbing blue. Yeah, we're climbing blue ice, it's like you make one mistake, you're at the bottom of the mountain and kilometres of like, just climbing ice. So it's, it was definitely very cool for me like a big learning curve. But at the same time, I did hold my own, I carried my like, my weight. And I, I was I had, like, righteously I had my place in that team. So hearing stuff, like, Oh, who's carrying your makeup, and she's just the mask on? I'm like, you'll see. It's not my business. Like if someone has, has these prejudices, it's more than more their problem than mine.

Nick VinZant 12:42

Well, I guess what do you like? What keeps you coming back? What do you think is like the ultimate draw of it for you, putting myself

Lotta Hintsa 12:49

out there facing the challenges, feeling discomfort going towards things that might feel scary. I don't really ever feel scared, I acknowledge that this is like a dangerous situation. But I need to focus really, really hard. And I can mitigate the situation. That's what I bring into my training, like I train, depending on the cycle, but 20 to 30 hours a week of endurance during the endurance period. And then we have like, more technical training periods or cycles and more like strength based but I just, I work my ass off. So I bring that idea of like, this will make me be better in this in this situation I can take on the mountain. Like every time I go to a mountain I want to take the mountain on on its terms and not bring the mountain down to my level,

Nick VinZant 13:51

as there have been a shift in climbing like this. I don't know if this is the right word, the climbing like ethos or perspective in which, you know, I used to watch these things about right like the documentary going up at Everest. And I always wondered like, it looks like everybody somebody else is doing all the work. Right. Like they got the Sherpas just fixing the ropes and carrying the stuff there been a shift where like, No, you got to do this whole thing yourself.

Lotta Hintsa 14:14

Um, I hope there is a bit more but I do see more and more of this kind of, I mean, last year on Broad Peak, it ended up in a death of a climber because there were people who were not experienced enough to be there. And we were involved in a bunch of our few rescue operations. And it just I wish there was more of this. I will apprentice and like take a step by step by step but nowadays because this is an exaggeration, but you kind of want the picture on the summit on your Instagram page. And then To get there, you need to use a lot of money and just pay for someone to get you up there. It's but then when something goes wrong, you don't know what to do. And people don't know what to do

Nick VinZant 15:16

when you go in terms of like, alright, from your average mountain? Obviously, it's different for every single one. But is it generally? Like how long of a trip are you looking? Usually looking at you like you've got to, it's gonna take you this long, you got to cover this many kilometers, this much vertical. Like I know that every mountain is obviously different. But in general, kind of like, what are you preparing for?

Lotta Hintsa 15:39

Like you said, every mountain is different. But basically, I would say that the higher the mountain along it longer you need to be on the mountain or at the base of the mountain. acclimatized waiting for weather windows, like that's the most. To me, it's the hardest part of expeditions like you might sit in Basecamp for 10 days, just waiting for the weather window to open. So you get to like, either go up, and acclimatized or have a summit push, but an 8000 meter peak. So there are 14 8000 meter peaks in the world. And they usually take about two months, even more to climb, but then you go to 7000 like Aconcagua in South America in Argentina, and it's 1000 meters lower. And three weeks max,

Nick VinZant 16:35

there's that much of a difference just in that 1000 meters. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Is that just because that 8000 meter peak, is that much bigger than a 7000 meter peak? Or because No, having that much less oxygen is going to take you that much longer? Yeah, it's the oxygen. So if you go above like the death zone, right, like the thing that I've always heard, is that okay, your body is basically dying. Once you're up here. Once you go back below, are you like, you're back to normal? Or are there long term effects that like, you have taken this out of your body, and it's not coming back.

Lotta Hintsa 17:16

In general, I always do feel weaker after a long expedition. But the use of supplemental oxygen that helps a lot in mitigating those, those symptoms, like you're just not functioning the same way. Like when you're, especially when you're climbing without supplemental oxygen, it compromises like all of the functions of your body. Like, when we went on winter Broad Peak, my Iman partner told me like, it's 5050, that you will lose a finger or a nose or something. Because when you're, you're just your blood circulation doesn't work the same way it doesn't work as effectively. And the first place it leaves is your fingers or like the extremities of your body. Yeah, and there is a saying that we do lose brain cells up into higher elevation. So yeah, sure, if we can ever recover, though.

Unknown Speaker 18:14

It's it's a debatable topic. We

Nick VinZant 18:16

did have a neuros, a neuroscientist on once, who said, Oh, you kind of replaced them. Just don't replace the ones you really need. That's what he's like you replaced the ones that have kind of like, keep your body moving, but not the ones. Notice it affects you like do your decision making at all?

Lotta Hintsa 18:33

Yes, it does affect your decision making. And you just feel like your brains work much slower. So far, I've I've felt pretty good. Like, as high as I've gone. I've always felt in control. And that's the thing you have to make the decision beforehand that you will never because you're every time you put yourself in a position where something bad can happen to you. You're compromising the lives and the safety of everyone else on the mountain as well. Like personally, I'm if there's something going wrong, I've left a summit push three times I've failed on while failed to me it wasn't a failure, because it was such a big cool adventure in general. And like, I don't go on these mountains for the summit. I go for the journey. But three times I've left a mountain without a summit because there has been a rescue situation, whether no matter how, like involved I've been but still I've taken that step back. And a lot of people when they go on these mountains, they think that this was what they would do. But you sort of go into default mode. And you see a lot of this kind of people come back and say that I never thought I would behave or act that way. Is

Nick VinZant 19:58

that a common thing though? up, they're like, Look, you get in trouble, nobody's coming for you.

Lotta Hintsa 20:05

You can't go there and expect someone to help you. And that's one of the issues that a lot of people do when they pay big money that someone's going to help you. But you got to be there with an attitude and with the knowledge that if everything else disappears around you like your safety net, every other person, you don't have ropes, ropes are taken down by an avalanche. You're just left with your ice tools, your ice axes and your crampons that you can get down the mountain by yourself. But a lot of people rely on the ropes so much. Like you don't necessarily even need to bring an ice ice axe to Everest nowadays anymore, because you can just use this Jumar thingy that you slide up the rope and it doesn't come down.

Nick VinZant 20:51

But that you know, is that for more kind of the like the tourist alpinist stuff, right? Like the the hardcore of the hardcore isn't doing that though.

Lotta Hintsa 21:01

90 II know 95% 90 to 95% of people who go up on these expeditions nowadays. Climb like that. Wow. But it's, it's, it's made easy. So like, why not?

Nick VinZant 21:16

Has then then like for people who are still kind of looking for like the true experience, then, like, where are they going for that? Right? Like if Everest is now Disney World, I'm being dramatic, obviously. But if Everest is now like, Where? Where are you going for the real stuff?

Lotta Hintsa 21:34

Well, definitely the 14 8000 meter peaks are very popular at the moment. That's kind of like the I don't know if you've heard of the Seven Summits? Yeah, yeah. But it's like climbing the highest mountain of every continent. And now it's become more like the 14 8000 meter peaks. So you'll climb all the 8000 meter peaks in the world. But I'd say that a lot of a lot of climbers that I know and climb with, are looking for experiences outside the normal routes. And that's kind of where, okay, let's just say that I'm gravitated towards routes outside of the normal routes. So it's more about just me and the mountain or just me my climbing partner and, and the mountain. So that's, that's where my future goals are. And future plans. It doesn't have to be an 8000 meter peak. There are a bunch of mountains that you throw a rock rock in the air and it reaches 8000. So it's like, I'm, I'm cool with the height not starting with an eight. As long as it's a fun route.

Nick VinZant 22:46

Are you ready for some harder slashed listener submitted questions? Yes. Did you hear my voice crack? I said that like I was a

Unknown Speaker 22:53

little boy. I've been a little sniffling.

Lotta Hintsa 22:56

Okay. Um, okay, well, no, I'm not sure if I'm ready. No,

Nick VinZant 23:01

right, right. Um, this is I like this question. Can you enjoy it? Or is it so physically difficult, that you're just suffering through the whole thing? Oh, I

Lotta Hintsa 23:13

absolutely loved the suffering. It's like, that's how you go there, you would feel so alive when you're just so focused on in the moment, like, there's no room for any other stress factors other than where you are at the moment. And I don't know I get this weird kick. Like, the harder it gets. I'm like, Oh, now we're getting started. So I do a lot of ultra runs as well. So the first 15 hours is boring, because you're just like, kind of suffering start already. And then you're like, Okay, now we're, now it gets interesting.

Nick VinZant 23:46

But does that ruin everyday life then? Right? Because I know that like people like yourself, you go on these massive adventures. But that can't be that much. Like does it ruin then? The kind of common commonality of everyday life or like alright, Tuesday's laundry day. Does it make everything else seem less impressive?

Lotta Hintsa 24:06

I get what you mean. I do. A lot of stuff that feels interesting. Like, even training that you tell someone to go on a stair stepper for five hours inside what looked like just staring at the same wall. You just change your mentality. You're like, Okay, well, not most most people couldn't do this or wouldn't want to do this. So take the challenge on and see how how I can make this interesting.

Nick VinZant 24:38

You've been on the Stairmaster for five hours straight.

Lotta Hintsa 24:42

Yes, five days in a week. That sounds like

Nick VinZant 24:44

the worst experience in all of life. That sounds terrible. What do you do? Like what how do you he's watching movies.

Lotta Hintsa 24:52

It's no I answer or reply to emails and messages and Sometimes I do like Instagram, Q and A's and that kind of stuff. Yeah, you'd have to. I always invent things. Yeah. Listen to music.

Nick VinZant 25:10

Five hours on a Stairmaster? Oh my gosh, that's

Lotta Hintsa 25:14

like an average. Sometimes it's four. Sometimes it's six.

Nick VinZant 25:18

Only four hours on it,

Unknown Speaker 25:20

man.

Nick VinZant 25:21

So then how many calories do you have to eat in a day?

Lotta Hintsa 25:24

I like, I have zero food rules other than not have food rules and eat a lot. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 25:31

No, will you? Will your body go through big changes during one of those expeditions? Right, like we just had a guy on that was solo sailing around the world. And he would say, Well, when I sail from LA to Hawaii, I know I'm gonna lose 25 pounds.

Lotta Hintsa 25:43

Um, so I always try to gain weight before I go on an expedition, which is sometimes hard because you're just training so much. But you do lose some body mass, mostly, it's muscle, which sucks. So that's why you can't really go on back to back expeditions if you're climbing without supplemental oxygen, because the effect is, is bigger that way. But then I just eat a lot. In Basecamp.

Nick VinZant 26:08

It's eat as much as you can get. It's like,

Lotta Hintsa 26:11

yeah, I try to aim at for four to 5000

Nick VinZant 26:15

calories. How do you go to the bathroom up there?

Lotta Hintsa 26:19

That is always the second question. Like, whenever I'm in a public speaking situation, people like try to soften things up with another question. And then they go to that. So I'm, there depends if you're in base camp, or if you're up on the mountain. But let's just say that, for example, if you're going for number two, sometimes your climbing partner has to belay you from the tent, so that you can go down a little like roped up. And, and there's situations where you're doing that stuff in very sketchy places, just hoping that your tombstone won't say that died while pooping. But it's, it's like a bathroom with a view.

Nick VinZant 27:00

That's it that actually leads us perfectly in this next question, what's the view like,

Lotta Hintsa 27:04

oh, great, amazing. This is what I tell people that because many people think that you need to get to the summit to enjoy the view. But wherever you you are in life. And whatever your journey or mountain it's like, look back, like every 10 or 100, or at least 1000 meters and just enjoy where you are. Look back how far you've come. And that actually works as a pretty good analogy for a lot of things in life. But always look back to see how far you've come

Nick VinZant 27:37

scariest situation you have ever faced.

Lotta Hintsa 27:41

This was one of those good lessons as well. We were coming down from broad peak last summer. And I was sort of like, it didn't focus anymore, because we're almost off the mountain. And there's big crevasse at the base of the mountain or Bertrand is the real name, but it's like a crevasse. And there's a snow bridge on top of it. So basically, it's like a very, you'll never know how thick the snow bridges and when it will collapse. But there was like an obvious spot where you need to go over it and then a spot where you definitely don't want to go over it. And I was just, I don't know, focusing on the french fries and pancakes and Basecamp that I was going to get soon. So I just didn't look and I was unbroken. I had my socks and my other hand crampons on. And I was holding on to a rope. So that was a very good thing. But kind of loosely and then the snow bridge just collapsed underneath me. And somehow I was able to just get my ice axe in my crampons and hold on to the row and got myself from like, out of there. And I was just laughing hysterically. I don't that was like a weird reaction. But it was just like, I was close and my climbing partner was like What did you just do? Why didn't you watch where you were going? And yeah, so finished with focus. That's a good lesson.

Nick VinZant 29:12

And then I would imagine if you wouldn't have stopped then that was the end Yeah, that close that quickly. Right like that kind of adheres like they have this is a mother question we got is like what where do people die? Like what what kills people up on the mountains?

Lotta Hintsa 29:31

So high altitude sickness is definitely one of the reasons. So you're either your brains or your lungs start filling up with water. And because of the altitude there's you can look those up if you want to know more. But then I think the objective dangerous are always there, but those you can mitigate by learning to read the mountain Sometimes you need to roll the dice a little and understand that you are taking some certain risk. So rockfall avalanches? Well, yeah, severe weather. Like the weather changes cold. But then other people is one of the dangers nowadays as well, especially if you're on a very popular route. And there's some sort of things like St. Kitts that not everyone necessarily knows. For example, if you kick a rock, you're supposed to yell rock, like really hard. I almost got killed last summer with someone dropping a rock that went like that close to my head at I don't know, but must have been at least like 50 miles per hour speed, this big chunk. And it was like, if it would have hit my face, I would have dropped it right there. Me and so and then just your own mistakes. That's that's one thing, but ropes that break

Nick VinZant 31:07

on pretty much every expedition, are you going to have like, yeah, you pretty much gonna almost die on every expedition at some point?

Lotta Hintsa 31:15

I hope not. I hope not. I don't think I had, I've had like, things that could have ended badly on a lot of expeditions. But then there's a lot of situations where your know that you made the right call. And then that's why nothing happened. So I think it's a lot about learning and knowing what you're getting into, so that you can mitigate those risks and just train your butt off so that you're, you'll be faster on the mountain, so you'll be less exposed to the objective risks. But just I hope it won't be every time that there is a story like that last summer was just crazy. It was like gut punch after punch and gut punch. And then you get up again, and then you fall down again and you get up again. So it was it was a hard one. But I published a book about it. So that's became a good adventure. Good for you. And it was actually yeah, and in the end, I was so exhilarated that it was like, every single time I was brought down. We still got back up. So it was just like, testing your strength. And in the end, I was like cool. I actually was able to get up every time that something happened. Like just get even through, like frustration and tears. I'd still get back off on my feet and try again until my visa ended and then we left the country.

Unknown Speaker 32:40

Ultimately it comes down to the government doesn't it? I can I can beat the weather and the mountain and myself but the government red tape is what's ultimately Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Nick VinZant 32:55

what is the next what is your holy grail? What's the thing that like, Ooh, this is this is this is what I want to do.

Lotta Hintsa 33:04

I don't think I can tell you because this has happened to me before that I've said my dreams out loud and then someone else went and did it because our Yeah, that's our sort of how we what we aspire to do is do and I haven't really done anything. I mean, I've done cool stuff but nothing that has gone into historic books yet. So our history books, but um yeah, there there are keep it secret new new routes Yeah, new routes or first first attempts or first summits that fired

Nick VinZant 33:42

okay, that to do that makes sense. Right? Like you can't tip your hat

Lotta Hintsa 33:48

Yeah, like if you tell that I want to be the first first woman to do this and this are the first person to do this in this it's often with a mountain the sight there is no he or she you just write the mountain doesn't care if you're a man or a woman.

Nick VinZant 34:02

What is your favorite climbing related movie here

Lotta Hintsa 34:05

climbing related movie? I don't watch a lot of them because I pick them apart a lot. Like, I'll be like, they shouldn't be doing that. They shouldn't be doing that. That's not possible to do that and that kind of stuff. So I think I watched Everest the like the 96 year stretch and try to tragedy and I was just like, I couldn't focus because that was just Noid by little mistake.

Nick VinZant 34:33

What what is something though that like you would notice that I wouldn't notice at all like climbers like yourself would be like, Oh my God drives me nuts. But for me, I would be I wouldn't notice at all.

Lotta Hintsa 34:45

Like good thing like someone being without proper eye shields high up in altitude and you're just like, that person's gonna burn their eyes. Like you just got to put your sunglasses on or you're gonna burn your eyes. I've done that a few times. And it's so painful. But I have never gone Snowblind. But I've like had the worst feeling in my eyes. And in a lot of these movies, there's just people like hanging out up there, there without their eye shields or without their gloves for a really long time. And you're just like, that person might lose a finger Sue. That kind of stuff for them, like looking at their harnesses and being like, I wonder why they're carrying that thing up this mountain because every single gram counts, but wire like, yeah, that kind of thing. I have equipment. I have

Nick VinZant 35:37

once also burned my eyes. And that was the worst. Like, oh my gosh, that's the worst. So painful. Yes, awful. You don't make that mistake again.

Lotta Hintsa 35:47

I've made it twice.

Nick VinZant 35:48

Well, I didn't make that.

Unknown Speaker 35:51

Well, you are not. You are not ready for these mountains. Let me tell you, as a person who has walked 10 Miles once you are not prepared. Get out of here. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 36:07

Best food to eat after getting off the mountain

Lotta Hintsa 36:10

and french fries and pancakes. Oh, yeah. They just like they're awesome. And in Basecamp, for some reason, like they're at 5000 meters in Basecamp. They're just the best. I think it's the saltiness of the French fries. That helps. Like you need salt.

Nick VinZant 36:30

Alright, oh, I could see that. That's pretty much all the questions I have. Is there, like anything else that you think we missed? Or like what's kind of coming up next for you?

Lotta Hintsa 36:38

Well, next for me is this exciting new adventure. So I'm part of the Sports Illustrated swim search. And there were 1000s of applications and 13. were chosen. We did a photoshoot in Dominican Republic, I believe at least what I saw from the screen that these shots will be amazing. So yeah, part of that.

Nick VinZant 37:04

Is that kind of like, what's that? Like? Is it what you expected? Or is it like, Whoa, this is really something big?

Lotta Hintsa 37:10

Well, definitely, whoa, this is something really big. I mean, the atmosphere at the shoot was just something out of this world. I've never been on a shoot like that. And I think it was mostly because the way everyone was just so kind of, I have the saying about redefining femininity. And I've been told so many times on the mountains that don't bring out your femininity, or that your feminine side, because that will make you less legitimate of a climber. And I don't understand that this is kind of like the message I got about being part of the swim search as well. And there. So I've decided that anything that I do on the mountains, because I'm doing it as a woman, it's feminine. Like if whether it's peeing in a bottle, or taking some cool dress, photos up on a glacier or up on the mountain, it's, that's feminine to me. And the way si redefines femininity, like, for example, I have a little ego, which is like, some parts of my body just don't get a tan or color. So they were just like before in photoshoots everyone's been photoshopping them or trying to cover them up with makeup and that kind of stuff. And they were just like, we loved love your vitiligo, we want to show it off, rather than cover it up. So there's this kind of the message that they have is so powerful, because it's you actually get to be yourself, like your eye for one second, I didn't feel too short. Or to this or to that, like what you always kind of feel like you're trying to measure up to some sort of sort of standard when you're at a photo shoot, like, or any photo shoot I've ever done before. And this was just like, be you we love you the way you are. And yeah, and that's the message they put out. Like, I think they put it out really well for all the world to see. So it's, it's really cool. They're very powerful that way,

Nick VinZant 39:17

you know, we talked a little bit about the idea like like the mountain doesn't care what you look like or if you're a man or a woman. Do you get pushback, right? Like do you is it different being a woman in what I would assume is kind of a boys club or do I know nothing about this?

Lotta Hintsa 39:36

You're pretty much right. You either need to kind of like I said, Bring out your traditional femininity, less or then you're considered a mascot. And I think um I like proving people wrong, so I don't mind

Erotic Hypnotist Glitter Goddess

Sit back, relax and let Glitter Goddess guide you as we slide into the world of Erotic Hypnotism. We talk sexual hypnotism, mesmerizing, domination, building a business and finding the courage to try something new. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kitchen Appliances.

Glitter Goddess: 02:05ish

Pointless: 42:42ish

Top 5: 55:27ish

www.twitter.com/1glittergoddess (Glitter Goddess Twitter)

www.instagram.com/theoneglittergoddess (Glitter Goddess Instagram)

https://www.loyalfans.com/glittergoddess?ref=A2BCMdUR5frwdIboA4TQgNWeTCsRtBlfrxwhf5sWFfaOg (Glitter Goddess Fan Site)

https://www.niteflirt.com/phonesex/goody_bag?crid=Goody%20Bag&ugb_id=25702774-3913431&pid=25702774 (Glitter Goddess NiteFlirt)

Interview with Erotic Hypnotist Glitter Goddess

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode of erotic hypnotism and kitchen appliances,

Glitter Goddess 0:22

it's it's like we get to be stars in our own movie or our own play, where we can lay things out. And sometimes it's easier to do that with through hypnosis, but you're bringing in the elements of sexual newness. So you're exploring an intimate kind of world with somebody, I really love hearing what turns people on and then being able to enjoy, like, where I can take that and what I can add. So there's a whole fetish that I get to play with quite a bit, which is cuckolding. I had somebody come and do that once while I was playing with a lover upstairs. And he was so bad at windows, I never had him come back again. And sir, he left streaks fucking everywhere. I was like,

Nick VinZant 1:03

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think the best way to introduce you to our first guest, is to play a sample of one of our clips.

Glitter Goddess 1:21

Thinking is overrated. Now's the time to relax the time to feel the time to let all of those ideas swimming in your head.

Start to get soft and liquid and slide right out of your mind into the ether.

Nick VinZant 1:45

This is erotic hypnotist glitter goddess. Quick note, this is a little bit longer than most of our interviews. But it gets more and more and more interesting as we go along. And I think that she has a really good message at the end. What is erotic hypnosis,

Glitter Goddess 2:07

I'd say it's a journey that you can take with somebody else. And it's kind of like, if you can imagine like a guided meditation, but you're bringing in the elements of sexual pneus. So you're exploring an intimate kind of world with somebody?

Nick VinZant 2:24

Like what's the sexual part of it? Is it the hypnosis itself? Or is it getting somebody into a state where they can kind of be relaxed?

Glitter Goddess 2:36

Well, hypnosis itself can be a fetish of its own. And it can also be added to any sort of proclivity or curiosity that someone has. And so I'll ask them questions and learn a few things about them. So I kind of know where to guide things. I'm also a dominant person. So I'm really leading that experience. And then there's no wrong way for the person who's receiving to then just lay back, relax, see where the journey takes us. Add in elements, so they're not just a total bystander, it's actually something that we end up creating together. But it really seems like I'm doing all of the talking all of the working all of the playing maybe even a little manipulation, things like that.

Nick VinZant 3:21

Now, is this kind of a I don't know if the right word is fetish, or kink or whatever the right word would be? Is this an offshoot of something else? Or is this kind of like this is its own thing?

Glitter Goddess 3:32

I think it's really its own thing. I mean, the weirdest thing for me, which is the most enjoyable part about my work is that so many things in the world can be a turn on for people. And so for some people that totally like grosses them out, like oh my god, a chair could turn someone on or like, you know, like, shouldn't we have this a little bit more controlled? That for me, I'm like, I love to take a take a walk, take a gander into somebodies mind and actually find out what makes them titillated, and then explore that more. The thing

Nick VinZant 4:06

that I wonder is like, How do you How did you find this? How do people like discover this about themselves? Because it doesn't seem like the thing that like, right, it's not on the front page of Pornhub, so to speak.

Glitter Goddess 4:20

It was hugely popular when I first started getting started being a dominatrix. And I honestly cannot remember how I began doing it. It was just natural. It felt like something that I would all like that I've just always done.

Nick VinZant 4:37

Is it purely sexual? I mean, obviously the name erotic hypnosis you would think it's purely sexual, but is it purely sexual? Or some people like you know what I kind of stressed out from work instead of watching a YouTube video I'm gonna check this out.

Glitter Goddess 4:51

I think it could be going in that direction a little bit more. I usually people are coming for some some erotic elements. So basically what I say it's a little naughty, but you know, clip it out if it if it must be, but I let them know that, you know, we take deep breaths together at the beginning, it's very, very relaxed, very casual, because I'm guiding. So there's nothing they have to do. And, and then let them know that at any time, and I can't see them for the most part. Occasionally I'll do a cam session, but mostly, it's just each other's voices, we're talking on the phone at any time, if you'd like to attach themselves anywhere they can. So it's really their choice how how they want to experience that part of the pleasure,

Nick VinZant 5:35

know, when you say, guiding them. This may sound like the same thing, but in my mind, I feel like it's different. Are you guiding them or telling them what to do?

Glitter Goddess 5:47

Oh, good question, am I guiding them or telling them what to do? Well, being that I am a dominant person, I wouldn't say it's more like telling them what to do. But I do have more of a seductive side of my domination, some people are more forceful, and yell and a little, you know, demeaning all the time. And I tend to, I tend to do whatever works. And for an individual, and it can be a totally different thing that can invite somebody to try something that they've never done before. But usually, usually, it's it's telling them what to do.

Nick VinZant 6:28

Do you enjoy that part of it? Or is that like, Alright, I got to do this now.

Glitter Goddess 6:34

I enjoy that very much I am. I like, I like being inspired. So when each person has something different that turns them on, I get to add that to my whole let's say artists box of, of things that can turn me on, or give me ideas or inspire me or different fantasies. So someone has like a specific fantasy, that's like really exciting to me, that's like a new color in the palette to play with. I really love hearing what turns people on and then being able to enjoy, like, where I can take that and what I can add

Nick VinZant 7:14

is now but is there a commonality in most of it like okay, you're coming to erotic hypnosis, you got to check this box, check this box and check this box because this is what the people are going to want.

Glitter Goddess 7:26

It's it's really different from person to person. And the relaxation part can be kind of similar, like I take people down into this relaxation kind of similarly. And so that actually becomes a bit of something that they look forward to each time because it that that sense of melting and relaxing and letting things go letting things from your day go. That that is something that they get to look forward to at the beginning of each session and then we get to explore where where to go from there

Nick VinZant 7:59

is most of your business is it creating clips and putting them out like on clips for sale or any of those kinds of places? Or is it more on the phone,

Glitter Goddess 8:08

it's a bit of both I have clips on quite a number of stores online. And I love being able to talk with people one on one so for me, it's been so wonderful how it's been just more and more assessable to people to be able to get clips to be able to call to be able to interact in multiple ways now but but it's easy. The weird part is it's really easy for me to connect with people while making videos. So a comment I get all the time as if it feels like you made that video just for me

Nick VinZant 8:44

on a scale of like one to 10 with 10 being the most mainstream thing you can like missionary position the most main thing stream thing you can think about and one being whatever I don't even know where like on the scale of popularity Do you think that this would be maybe somewhere

Glitter Goddess 9:05

in the middle and I think it would go in the middle because hypnosis is almost like a carrier for something it's I don't know why I'm thinking of essential oils right now I'm not even like trained in essential oils but in essential oils so the essential oils are something that's like a carrier oil and you can add other things to it but like let's say you apply something to your skin it doesn't burn you because you've got this carrier oil. So anyway, it's maybe not the best description in the world but I hypnosis can, can carry with it. Pretty much any kink or fetish and especially now during times where we might not be interacting in person as much with people but still desire an intimate connection with somebody. We can talk about. Really 10 Tip number 10 level things, which is really just like, hey, you've got a body, I've got a body, we find each other attractive, let's let's, you know, just kind of have fun with that, too, like some of the most extreme things that, like you said, you might not even know what they are, I might not know what they are either. And that would only be mitigated by my interests. So if our interests wouldn't overlap, then you know, wouldn't wouldn't work out. But basically, hypnosis, like anything can be added to it and explored more deeply through that than, let's say, a phone conversation without the hypnotic elements.

Nick VinZant 10:37

So I'll use an example from somebody who works in the adult industry that we've interviewed before, just to kind of have a place to jump off this conversation necessarily. So when you mean it's kind of like a gateway, let's say that somebody is attracted to watching people eat cheese, which is something that a former guest of ours that was welcome most biggest request is like, I want to see you eat cheese. So then if that was this person's interest, would they be hypnotized? And then wants you to eat cheese? Or would they want you to eat cheese? And then hypnotize them? Or like, how would this go, if this makes any sense at all to you?

Glitter Goddess 11:18

Oh, it does make sense, I don't really get requests like that the kind of requests that I get are more like, I have to in the company goddess. So it's like Goddess, I have to manage a group of people at work, I am under so much stress, I just want to have you be in charge and just show me what I can do. That'll make you happy and turn you on. And so then that's what we'll explore in the session. So it's much more common, instead of like, a specific thing that I'm supposed to do. It's more like, what is it that they're wanting to add to their lives, okay, so they have to be dominant in their lives, and they don't really love the weight of that it's a bit of a heavy burden. So it might be just putting that aside and actually taking orders not having to make any decisions whatsoever, but having me be their decision maker, it's actually a relief for them to be able to, to let that go. As far as specific fetishes go, though, like, for example, it's really common for for a request for me to be wearing pantyhose during like, let's say we have like a cam session together. Someone would like to see me wearing pantyhose, that's that is an option. And there's something about pantyhose that can be totally hypnotic, like that texture and the way that it looks on my skin, that little barrier between, you know, their touch, and my warm skin, then, then that kind of request would be okay, but I've never had anybody asked me to eat cheese. Actually don't even like cheese.

Nick VinZant 12:55

Is there a kind of like a typical clientele? I know that everybody can be different? But would you say that like alright, well, they fit this general kind of a pattern?

Glitter Goddess 13:04

Yeah, yeah, I would say my typical clientele would be somebody who has tried out what is supposed to be a satisfying normal sexual experience, and has just found that to be not as satisfying as what other guys seem to talk about. So it's like going out and meeting girls and having sex like somebody that they might meet at a bar. And, or maybe even they've tried, maybe they've been married or had several girlfriends. And it really tried to find like a connection through all the things that we're supposed to be satisfied with in life. And the or at least society says we're supposed to be satisfied by that. And it just hasn't met those kind of expectations. And then they start to veer a little bit, oftentimes, they might be searching things and for they're like porn keywords, and one thing leads to another, maybe they find me, and they realize that they can bring exactly who they are to the table. And that's one thing that's so important to me is like being being that person in someone's life where they don't have to be embarrassed of who they are. They don't have to be any different than who they are. They don't have to pretend like they're not turned on by the things that do light them up. And they don't also have to pretend to be a sort of alpha masculine in charge, kind of person. And I think there's a lot of I mean, we've heard this like phrase, I think a lot like toxic masculinity, the sense of like, this overbearing, maybe like forceful kind of a guy. And I think it leaves men in general and in society now like in a really tough position, because you're, you're expected to be so many things, but those things that you're expected to be are never the same thing. So it's like everybody would have a different perspective on how you're supposed To be as a man, and I find that exhausting even to think about much less having to live that. So part of what's really important to me is to create that safe space where it's like, look exactly how you are, is, is perfect to me, like exactly who you are, is, is who I want to get to know,

Nick VinZant 15:17

when your clients come to you, are they? I don't want this to sound like a judgment call, right? It's more just kind of understanding where people are coming from. Are they hesitant about it? Are they embarrassed about it? Are they like ashamed about it? Or they feel like this is what I like? And give me some of that are right?

Glitter Goddess 15:37

That is a super good question. Because it actually it's across the board. It's all of those things that you mentioned. And I've been doing it enough years now that like, it's pretty common for me to take a call because I'm on some platforms where like, I can just turn my light on. And I can get a call from anybody. And so I just pick up the phone and I'm like, Okay, where's this gonna go? Who is this that I get to explore with? And, and it is often that they're like, Goddess, I've been watching your videos. For years, I have never gotten the courage to call. But today I saw your line was on. And I just I don't even know what to say I just wanted to say hi, and thank you. And like that just melts me because I'm just like, I'm so honored. Of course, that's just such a thrill for me. Like being a dominant woman like here. It's like, I didn't even know that this person had been spending years watching my videos, and then I get to talk with them. It's so exciting.

Nick VinZant 16:30

I've always wondered what that was like, right? Like in the sense that how people like yourself. Like, is that weird? Because you know what people are doing?

Glitter Goddess 16:38

Oh, yes. And I love that.

Nick VinZant 16:40

What about it? Like? Do you like the tension necessarily? Or is it just like you like that somebody is doing that to you? Or like what about it? Is your cup of tea?

Glitter Goddess 16:54

That is also a great question. And I love the attention. I love the admiration. I love the lust. I think I'm always i i It's not that I think I know I'm a bit of an exhibitionist. I think it's just a part of who I am. And part of part of what makes it so great that there are guys out there willing to explore their submissive side and not be this just stereotypical. This is what a quote unquote man is supposed to be, is, my side of the dominance looks a lot less silly, because they actually exist, like imagine how silly it would be for me to go around being like, and now you get to massage my feet. And now you know, it's like, they they're that other side of the coin that like for some reason? And who knows why for me, I never even tried to really examine why we get turned on I more like harness that and like look good. There's like a little you know, a jewel, a treasure to pick up like, Oh, great. But it's, it's like we make each other less unusual by the mere fact that the other exists, if that makes sense. Yeah, it'd be delivered

Nick VinZant 18:06

straight. If you're hypnotizing yourself, and then like telling yourself what to do. Sex is generally best done. And I don't not that you have sex with people. But you know what I mean? Like, it's generally best done with another person, whoever that person

Glitter Goddess 18:20

is. Yeah. Yeah. So how, like,

Nick VinZant 18:23

for a typical session, or session, the right word? I don't know. Yes. Okay. For like a typical session, like how, what do you do? What do they do? Like how does can you walk me through like the process? Like how does it go?

Glitter Goddess 18:37

I think the session just begins sometimes we'll chit chat about life sometimes, you know, something will come up and we just end up talking about really whatever whatever's there. It's just it's so different from call to call. And that's part of also what makes it such a joy to to explore some people are already completely turned on by the time I get them on the phone. So at that point, there's no chit chat about strangely, I've ever been interested, like straight to like, wow, this is the good stuff. Okay. But But again, even getting to know each other and having those kinds of conversations that's that's just a different kinds of good stuff. That doesn't sound like a cop out thing. It's just I have a lot of varied interests. Sometimes we'll end up talking about like, you know, specific kinds of music and like these different nuance, like nuances of music that we have in common that we really like and, you know, I think it's just like meeting a friend. It's just a different way to connect. Yeah, then then we might be used to

Nick VinZant 19:35

then like, how does it go once you kind of get to the getting,

Glitter Goddess 19:39

that's part of what the hypnosis helps with. So it's like, okay, we might have been chatting for a while and getting to know each other, and then that's where maybe my dominant side will come out more. I'll say something like, you know, it's okay, so now I'd actually like to hypnotize you. Are you ready to relax for me? So then we'll find a place to lay down, get comfortable, have hands free for you. Have more fun occasions than just holding a phone. And and then we'll get started. And that's where I just completely relinquish the person I'm talking with from any need to say anything, do anything, their job is to just purely relax and listen to My voice and just to allow the experience to happen to unfold.

Nick VinZant 20:21

Will you tell them to do certain things? Things?

Glitter Goddess 20:25

Yes, sometimes Yeah, they're there moments, for example, where I can tell somebody is getting really close to orgasm. And I would like them to take their hand away so that the pleasure can be prolonged. One of the things I really enjoy doing is actually guiding what they're doing and how they're touching. And part of that could be to actually extend the, the the Yeah, the pleasure. And it's edging is what it's called, basically, it's just edging that pleasure along so that it just can last longer.

Nick VinZant 21:00

Oh, so edging is kind of just like, stay where you are and let it build. Yeah.

Glitter Goddess 21:07

So edging would be like getting getting really close to to orgasm, and then taking your hand away, letting the pleasure subside for a few moments and then letting it build back up. And there are times where someone might do this for, you know, hours, even usually before maybe talking with me, or I'm there with some of it. Or maybe it's even just 15 minutes. So it can it can really vary.

Nick VinZant 21:32

This is this, this is an indication of the stage of my life where I'm at or like hours, he's got that kind of time. Listen, we got five minutes here.

Glitter Goddess 21:44

Totally. And that is part of why I have like a lot of different kinds of videos, because I do get calls sometimes, like from guys, or even I'll get a message that they had a lunch break. And they went from work. And they went and watched one of my videos and had some fun and then got to go back to work.

Nick VinZant 22:03

It means ability to basically take any free time to essentially masturbate is amazing to me, right? Like if a guy really needs a free time he is what are you gonna do with it? There's only one thing I'm gonna do.

Glitter Goddess 22:20

Totally. And I over and over too, which makes me feel so good is like that somebody feels like a teenager again, that they haven't had that kind of drive or pleasure in such a long, long, long time that they're like in teenager level again. And I'd like to me that success. I'm just so happy that somebody could just lose control over their horniness. So dynamically.

Nick VinZant 22:43

I remember those days. God that was just, it was an equal combination of excitement and awful at the same time, we're like, how can this thing be steering every decision that I'm possibly making? I'm assuming that most of your clients that are men is Dino have like a percentage? Are we talking like 80%? Or like 99%?

Glitter Goddess 23:04

We were at 100 We're gonna have

Nick VinZant 23:08

there's no women that kind of sneak in there at all? No. Is that just for you, though? Or is that pretty much like across the board? Every woman who does this in the industry? It's all men. There's not no one's ever even heard of a woman being interested in this?

Glitter Goddess 23:27

Well, I haven't. I haven't talked to tons of people who are in a similar line of work, then as me so I can't speak for anybody else. But what I will say is that I've played a little bit more with that in my, in my private life or more one on one, like it's not something I'm opposed to. But as far as people who reach out to me and ask for sessions. It's all guys. Now I do get women reaching out to me asking for sessions on how to create a business similar to mine, but totally different conversations come up from that. So I think it's just kind of one of those things where guys were looking for me,

Nick VinZant 24:07

is there something about it, though, that only like appeals to men, like women would just not be interested in this?

Glitter Goddess 24:13

It's a really good question. I know that there are a lot of submissive women out there. And maybe it's it's I'm just not that creature that they desire to surrender to. But also I think if we look at who's out there, spending money on sexual experiences online, I think we've got in general more more guys.

Nick VinZant 24:41

Okay. Is this is this the full time living?

Glitter Goddess 24:43

So I am somebody who likes to have a lot of things going on in my life at the same time. So I have other vanilla jobs that I do. Vanilla jobs, but the but yes, I mean, yeah, I've been doing this for years and years and it's definitely definitely have sustainable as a as a full time living.

Nick VinZant 25:01

Like how lucrative of a business is this?

Glitter Goddess 25:05

It can be. It can be huge, it can be as big as you want it to be the first month that I joined night flirt. That's the first platform that I was ever on. And I'm still on it because I love it so much. The first month that I was on night flirt, I kept my call line on day and night, I was so thrilled that this was even a thing and that I could express my dominance and that I could play with people. I guess I'd wake up at, like 3am someone would call and I'd be like, what, what are we going to talk about? What are you going to do? And I was I made myself available. And then you know, I started climbing and ranks I ended up being first on the page, so people could find me even easier. And $12,000 is what I made in the very first month of doing it, you made $12,000 first go at it and and I had my call rate so low at that time, too. I spent a lot of time on the phone and I met a lot of people. And some of those people I'm still connected with today. I'm not on like I was that very first month, but then there are other things that that you do like that was before I had even one video for sale. That was 100% calls only. And now I've got clips in I want clips, you know, clips for sale and, and loyal fans, which is the new one that I just started playing with,

Nick VinZant 26:25

man. What do one that is being killed in it to people's sexuality. And as my personal opinion is, as long as you're not hurting anybody against their will who gives shit?

Glitter Goddess 26:39

Exactly. So I mean, I had somebody who call years ago now maybe six years ago, who said, you know, I've wanted to put on a pair of pantyhose for so long. He said maybe it's been 35 years, I don't even know. I've never done it. And and I was like let's set up a time. Let's do it. Like we'll just chat today. And then you know, later this week, let's set up a time and I'll just be there with you. And you can put your pantyhose on. And let's try it. And we did. And it and the part that I see is such a sadness is when we, when we don't allow ourselves to try something out. Especially you know, the main thing is, like you said, if it's not hurting anybody else, but part of it is we think when we're either married or in a partnership with somebody, that it'll hurt them if we explore what our kinks are. And that's where things get a little bit interesting to negotiate with relationships. Because a lot, so many people do have a committed relationship yet. The things that turn them on aren't necessarily the things that their partner would understand or get about them. So it can become pretty complex,

Nick VinZant 27:43

right? Like you never know, you might be listening to this at home thinking God all this stuff is so weird. And then you could just love it. If you just you never note, have you ever had somebody being like that knew this would that was not for me. Like wanted to try it and then was just like, Oh, I do not like spicy chicken wings. Right? Like that kind of thing? Yeah.

Glitter Goddess 28:05

Like I've tried buffalo sauce. And I'm like, I don't get it. I can't get into buffalo sauce. I think the closest that I've had to something like that, that they've been at least, you know, yeah, that someone shared with me is that I've found that people who are really, really, really intellectual and I'd say live kind of from their head, like really just can't let their bodies be in charge is it's really challenging to take somebody into a trance when they're really mental. Like even to get, you know, have an erection or to have your, you know, your body turned on. It's like you kind of have to let your head go. And so I always see it as a huge honor when somebody is willing to relinquish even that control because it can I mean, think about I mean, for me, at least I think about when I get horny, like I'm I'm open to all sorts of suggestions. You know what, like, start thinking about like, what are the sounds fun and oh, yeah, I'd love to try that. Whether I do it in person. Totally different story. But to be able to bounce that off of somebody and play. It's like I can be this one minute something totally different another and, and it's all okay, because it's all just stuff we were talking about.

Nick VinZant 29:20

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? I would love that. So I'll edit this part out audience is nice. They're not assholes. They're really not. The questions are a little bit quirky, but they come from like a good place and sometimes they just don't know how to ask them necessarily. Um, totally. Are there other fetishes within erotic hypnosis? Like are there different levels like I don't even know what to give an example.

Glitter Goddess 29:45

So when would be like adding some J li which stands for jerk off instruction. So I would often add elements of guiding how a person would touch themselves which is really fun because it can it basically tastes takes masturbation to a slightly different place. Because it's you physically doing it. But me guiding what happens? And so I'd say it like the physical sensations are different, like, better than even just switching hands.

Nick VinZant 30:15

switching hands. It's not even possible.

Glitter Goddess 30:18

Have you ever haven't tried that? God? You know what, I don't know if I'll try their left hand because it feels like somebody else.

Nick VinZant 30:24

Well, I'm left handed. So then I, I don't know if I ever have

Glitter Goddess 30:29

it'll feel like somebody else if you do. But basically, it's like, if I'm guiding things, it'll it'll just be a different flow, a different rhythm a different thing that you get to experience all night. I mean, by the Royal you like everybody,

Nick VinZant 30:44

right? You may be seeing my face right now. Or I'm so wondering, like, have I ever? Have I ever done that? It's been there the whole time. Like, why have a die? I've had this thing. This is the role that I play in many popular now, right? Like, have you ever thought about using the other hand. And this is where men's brains are right? Like once it gets going. There's no blood up top.

Glitter Goddess 31:11

Totally. That's what I talk I distinguish between the upper brain and the lower brain. And I honestly demand nothing as the upper brain while I'm talking with. Yeah, with my wonderful friends of

Nick VinZant 31:22

mine, I can really see why men like this, because it's just you don't have to do anything.

Glitter Goddess 31:27

Exactly.

Nick VinZant 31:27

It's so relaxing, but is is is goI completely different.

Glitter Goddess 31:32

They're very complementary, they can go together, and they can be completely separate. So I could do a hypnosis session that doesn't involve jerk off and stretch aeoi trick of instruction. But oftentimes, they will add elements of that. And some now I'm starting to do more of edging and more of the goI sessions and videos for the sites without hypnosis, that for the sites that don't like that as much like for example, I'm starting to do a Sunday worship broadcast on loyal fans. I did my first one this past Sunday. So anybody who follows me there on loyal fans, they get to see me leading this sort of, it's very blasphemous, like up to that, like a Sunday worship where it's like, Yep, it's me, Goddess. And so they're watching and, and I'm guiding more of a meditative relaxation session that does involve erotic things. And I would not, I wouldn't say that it goes over the edge into hypnosis. So I think if anything, I'm starting to be a little bit tamer.

Nick VinZant 32:40

I'm glad someone else asked this question so that I can frame it around them asking it and I don't have to ask it. Are you doing things to yourself during the videos? Is that part of it?

Glitter Goddess 32:50

Yes. So I don't have any videos that are fully nude. But I do show things. I like to show off my body. I said, I'm an exhibitionist. And it's really true. Like I like to be seen, and I like to be blessed after. And yeah, my videos are each a little bit different from each other. So there's always something that you get to see, like a different side of me or a different part of my body. Like, there are these Yeah, mental, like the more of like the cognitive, different parts of me, and then different parts of my body as well. Some videos are just purely focused on breast worship. And so that's gets to be the center of attention.

Nick VinZant 33:29

But you're not necessarily simulating sex acts during it.

Glitter Goddess 33:32

I do not simulate sex acts. No, it's really, it's more like kinda like what I mean, it's similar to us kind of talking on the camera right now, because I'll set up a camera, and then I might be a little further back so the viewer can see more of me, but it's just me talking to you. So it really feels like a one on one experience. But phone sessions I mean, it's a totally different dynamic because we're hearing each other and sometimes that can actually be even more intimate sometimes because you hear these like real subtle things in somebody's voice and you don't ever feel like like as a as a let's say a caller to me. You never have to worry what you look like you just lay there you can have your eyes closed open you can be touching yourself not and that's how I do it. I'm either touching myself or not like sometimes even on calls I'm like I'm playing with myself if I'm if I'm in dude, I'm into it. But on video I'm not like a full monty kind of gal.

Nick VinZant 34:32

Have you done in person sessions in the past? Do you continue to do them?

Glitter Goddess 34:36

I used to do in person sessions a whole lot when I first started out as a dominatrix and with erotic hypnosis. I was living in New York City. And it was such a brilliant place to explore and sometimes I would have like three different lawyers coming over different days a week cleaning my apartment. And

Nick VinZant 34:55

oh, it was just as part of amazing. Always cleaning I seen They were

Glitter Goddess 35:01

clean. Yeah, that's that domination kind of side coming through. And it was so funny because it was like there was when we cram like, wow, three different lawyers specifically. And it's not like I even have an overwhelming number of lawyer clientele. But it was just there were just so many there's so much diversity there and people's sexual interests, and a real openness. And then I moved to Houston, which I thought I'll just keep going with all this real time sessions in real time play. And I realized I live in the Bible Belt. So doesn't happen. And I just, I just sort of after trying to kind of get things off the ground here with with the in person sessions and realized how different culturally it is, I realized I'm actually having so much fun connecting with people from all around the world. I don't actually like trying to put my effort into the local part so much when I can have such a vast variety of people that I get to play with, like people from from Italy, for example, I was chatting with someone earlier today from Italy and I'm it's just it's just wonderful to meet people from around the world.

Nick VinZant 36:11

I keep wondering like, did they do a good job? The lawyers when they cleaned your apartment, like was it like, Oh, this is like cleaning service Good.

Glitter Goddess 36:19

Well, with with three different people that week, the apartment was super, super clean. I have had somebody come over. So there's a whole fetish that I get to play with quite a bit, which is cuckolding. And so that desire to be submissive to me, while I might have a lover that I'm playing with that there may be cleaning the house or doing household chores to like, make everything great for me. I had somebody come and do that once while I was playing with a lover upstairs. And he was so bad at windows, I never had him come back again. And sir. He left streaks fucking everywhere. I was like, Okay, I get it. And this was not helpful. Now I have to like, pay somebody to come in. I don't mind paying anybody to clean my house. Like, I feel like that's it's a true gift to have house cleaning and one that I'm happy to pay for. I know don't rely on just indentured or not, that's not the right word. But like, yeah, submissive,

Nick VinZant 37:23

I have never wanted to interview somebody more than that guy. And then like, how did you feel when goddess glitter dumped you as, as as a client, because you didn't do a good job cleaning? Within two

Glitter Goddess 37:36

years, he keeps trying to come back? And I'm just like, No.

Nick VinZant 37:40

So when like, if they do the consulting thing, are they like in there? I know. They're they're doing they're they're doing the task necessarily. But are they in there? Like doing their thing at the same time? Or did they do that at home? Or when did they find their release? I guess,

Glitter Goddess 37:57

totally. So that's something that is super fun to play with hypnosis, because it's almost like transports us to that place where it's going on. So we can set I can set the stage of like, this is what's going on. This is where you are, this is what's happening. And it's, it's like we get to be stars in our own movie or our own play, where we can lay things out. And sometimes it's easier to do that with through hypnosis than it is in real life. Because you know, there are personality things, there's timing, there's when can you not get caught by by a spouse, all these different things. But on the phone, we can like lay this out seamlessly. Like I've literally had it before where I've in New York where I had an apartment that had a loft, and I was upstairs having sex with my lover and the The cook was down there, cleaning and doing things and I went down and got a foot massage from him. And then I told him that it was his job now to then give my lover a foot massage also, which was like he turned, he blushed completely. It was like most mortifying thing, but he knew that was his task. And he he also let me know from the beginning, he was interested in exploring cuckolding this, you know, things he's done this, he'd like to try these things. So it's, it was not out of the blue, but definitely still a stretch for him to explore something like that. And definitely huge turn on.

Nick VinZant 39:26

Is there anything else that you think that I missed? Or anything like, Ooh, this is interesting, we should talk about this.

Glitter Goddess 39:32

So so what I would say is that if if we allow ourselves to explore sexually, into areas that were kind of concerned might be a little bit too much to explore, but we allow ourselves to actually go into that. It's like, I would encourage people to look at what's what's the worst that could happen here because I do remember being a young woman and almost frightened of my own Sexual sexuality or sexual illness before I even went in there, like I knew that it was just going to be this beast somehow before I even had my first orgasm. And I kind of stood at the edge of that ocean for a while. And I ended up doing a really strict meditation path for about five years where I no alcohol, no meat, no eggs, no sex of any kind, nothing. And so part of what I did is I built my whole life around keeping those things as far away from me as possible, so that I wouldn't be consumed by something, whatever that was, I didn't know. And when I started to allow myself to I guess it was kind of like, even trust that if I have an interest in something that it probably wouldn't destroy me. But I'd be worth it. Would it be worth finding out even if it did, that's when I started to really find what pleasure was for me because I had tried other things that were seemed like they were supposed to be satisfying for other people, and I just couldn't relate to it. And so if anybody is out there feeling like what they would be interested or might be interested in would be just too weird. That's totally okay. Like, there is actually no such thing as being normal sexually. There's not one person that doesn't have some outlying interest or proclivity or even curiosity. And maybe, maybe it's okay to at least at least explore it even during a time when you're by yourself and masturbating. And I guess that's a little bit where I get on the soapbox. Like, I'd like people to just know that it's okay. And that what turns you on doesn't define you as a person. And it's there for 10 seconds, it could be gone. Next month, it could be gone right after you orgasm. It could be there years later, but it doesn't define you. And it can change at any time. So why not? Why not have fun? Why not find out what what pleasure is possible instead of like building up the walls because I've done the whole wall thing too.

Nick VinZant 42:12

That's good advice. Good for you. Right? Like just find out, right? You might not think you like roller coasters, but hop on one and who knows?

Glitter Goddess 42:21

Yeah, just give yourself permission that like pleasure pleasures. Okay.

Solo Sailor Sailor James

Sailor James is on an adventure filled with beauty and danger. He’s currently sailing around the world all by himself. We talk solo sailing, remote islands, being stranded at sea, pirates and the best sea shanties. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Vehicles.

Sailor James: 01:37ish

Pointless: 33:10ish

Top 5: 45:06ish

http://youtube.com/sailorjames (Sailor James YouTube)

https://www.instagram.com/james.the.sailor.man (Sailor James Instagram)

https://www.svtriteia.com (Sailor James Website)

Dakota Lithium : https://dakotalithium.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Renogy Solar : https://www.renogy.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Rolly Tasker Sails : https://www.rollytasker.com (Sailor James Sponsor)

Interview with Solo Sailor Sailor James

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode solo sailing, and fictional vehicles

Sailor James 0:20

during that trip is what changed my life forever. It was like time travel. And that was it. For me. That was it. I was like this, I have to figure out how to make this my life. What happens is it's like living in a snare drum for day in and day out. And it's so loud and intense. I think the most, the longest period I slept in 32 days was two hours. When you start sailing, you get a full bag of luck, and you get an empty bag of experience. And you're you're like your job is to fill up the experience bag before your luck bag runs out.

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is on an adventure filled with beauty and danger. He's sailing around the world all by himself on a boat built in the 1960s. It's an adventure that's filled with sleepless nights, remote islands, being stranded at sea pirates, and sea shanties. This is solo sailor, Sailor James, when did you really fall in love with sailing, when did this kind of become something that you wanted to do?

Sailor James 1:42

It really, really started, I was pursuing a career as a like a fine artist for about a decade. And there are these things called artists and residencies, where you as an artist, you will, you're invited to go to a place and you go there for a month or up to three months, you make a body of work, you have an exhibition at the end. So these happen all over the world. I done one in St. Petersburg, Russia in January of 2014 on the island of cron stop, and I had made a body of work and based on maritime history, because the island had a rich maritime history. So I was receiving a lot of maritime history. And then I applied for another residency and got accepted in northern Scotland on a sailboat and I made a drawing machine that this wheeled platter moved beneath the fixed pin and made drawings based on the sailboats movement as see. And so we were sailing all throughout the the northern isles of Scotland, the Orkney Islands, and I was making these abstract drawings from Island island. But during that trip is what changed my life forever. Sailing between all of these different islands in the Orkney Islands and visiting Neolithic sites and going to all these unbelievable sites spinning i Under anchor on this like sailing vessel, learning how to sail and understanding what cruising is where you just travel by by the wind and by the elements. And then the moment that I always say was like the sort of moment that changed the trajectory of my life as we were sailing into Stromness on the Orkney mainland, in very, very thick fog, and I watched this ancient Seaport Village emerge from the fog, as we approached, and heard the anchor chain rattle down as the hook set on the seabed floor and held us in place. And it was, it was like time travel. And that was it. For me. That was it. I was like this, I have to figure out how to make this my life. And when I returned to Los Angeles that I set that in motion, I was like, Okay, this has to be what I do. I have to see the world and magical places. undersell

Nick VinZant 3:54

is it more about the act of like sailing in and of itself, or is the destination the goal,

Sailor James 3:59

there's like two sides of the same coin. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think it's beautiful and magical. The idea that, like, I sailed here to Hawaii, from Los Angeles, 2300 miles just by the wind without the motor running. Like I travel like a leaf on a pond. The fact that the elements can just if you know how to point the sails, and you know how to point your boat and you know how to navigate, you can reach any land on the planet. And so then, somewhere I read and who knows if it's true, but I read somewhere that 80% of the country's can be reached by water. And I was like, that's like a fascinating option to be able to travel slowly and using the elements and reach all of these like foreign places and new cultures and see beautiful things

Nick VinZant 4:52

now is the goal is still to kind of what is the word circumnavigate the globe?

Sailor James 4:57

That's the Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 4:59

Now how long would it take you if you were just like to do it non stop? Like, how long would it take you to circumnavigate the globe?

Sailor James 5:06

I think nowadays or depends on my boat. My boat is a 1965 sailboat. So she's older and not as fast. So it would take about a year,

Nick VinZant 5:15

is that faster? Is that slow? I'm not entirely sure which one that is.

Sailor James 5:18

today's standards, it's very slow. Like, because nowadays boats are like, made differently. They're much faster. But they're also far less comfortable. So there's a trade off. But um, yet, in today's today's world, some of the boats are absurdly fast and my vote is very slow and very safe.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Is that when you look at different boats, though, is there always a trade off between the safety and the speed? Like, cool, that's going to be fast, but

Sailor James 5:48

for sure, yeah, for sure. So and it's not necessarily the safety and the speed. Maybe it's the comfort level, and the speed, but I that can play into it. Because if you're not comfortable, if you're in a boat, that's not necessarily that's more designed for coastal cruising, where they're like, flat bottomed, and they're fast, and you can move quickly between places on the coast, and they're very wide and roomy, like an apartment, where those are not comfortable in big seas. And what happens is, it's like living in a snare drum for day in and day out. And it's so loud and intense. And while the boat didn't risk, like breaking, breaking up, it was perfectly sound boat. But the experience fatigues you in such a way that it can put you in a dangerous situation. And even more so a solo sailing, fatigue is a very dangerous aspect. Because then you can mess up and mess up at sea, especially if you're alone could mean your death. So

Nick VinZant 6:43

So like for solo sailing, how do you go about doing that right? Like do you have to just be alert 24 hours a day, the entire time that you're going there's a

Sailor James 6:55

thing called AI S, which is a system that all major ships have to have broadcast AI s. So there's this a s receiver, you can buy a transponder, a receiver, but the transponders are very expensive, which would send out your data. But the as receiver tells you, when a ship is near you, it tells you which direction they're going and how fast they're going. So you can set up alarms were like, Okay, if a ship gets in 10 miles of me, I need the alarm to go off. And then you can get up and kind of figure out where the ship is and figure out if they're gonna, if you guys are going to cross paths. So that lends itself to help a lot. But generally, on my passage, the way I do it, when I'm when I'm at sea, and I'm not coastal cruising is I would start my night shift around 9pm. And I would send alarm for the top of the hour for every hour. And I would lay down hopefully sleep through the hour, and then my alarm goes off, I would get up, go on deck look for ships slowly scan the horizon, check the sails, check the course make sure I'm still going the right direction, and carry on my way. And there's a thing called a wind vane self steering system, which is all mechanical doesn't take any electronics. And it um, you basically you set your course and you activate this wind vane, and it steers the boat for you. So it removes you from having to hand steer the boat. So that allows you to like live, you know, because the otherwise you would just have to put the boat that's called heave to which basically like stall the boat and sleep for hours if you know and then go back to sailing. So with a wind vane steering system, it allows you to just go kind of constantly, but you wouldn't

Nick VinZant 8:31

ever want to like just sleep for eight hours straight with the boat going, like Alright, well I pointed at East,

Sailor James 8:38

it's not a good idea. Because usually the sea conditions change the wind conditions change. And so your winds or your sails might you know, back when you start pointing in the wrong direction. You know, it's like you're sailing eight hours in the wrong direction is not going to help your final cause. So I think the most the longest period I slept in 32 days was two

Nick VinZant 9:02

hours. What does that do to your body?

Sailor James 9:05

Um, I lost 20 pounds. Also the conditions at sea it's really hard to cook so you kind of eat pretty, pretty simply. And then yeah, you get into a rhythm with it because it's not just nighttime so like, I don't drink any caffeine when I'm at sea like I don't have coffee. I love coffee on land and when I'm like you know just nearshore but I don't drink any caffeine when I'm at sea so that in the middle of the day if I can lay down then I can sleep you know so you just kind of grab rest wherever you are. And yeah, it's it's almost like you go on by standby mode anytime you can just to kind of conserve energy and, and stay alert.

Nick VinZant 9:44

My one experience with kind of the open ocean is on a giant cruise ship and I just felt like oh my gosh, I got to get off this thing. Like I felt trapped, even on a huge one. Like do you ever feel like that?

Sailor James 9:57

Not at all, especially being a little Um, you know, 1000 miles from land in any direction, it was like the most piece I'd ever experienced in my life. I think it's just different people wired different ways.

Nick VinZant 10:10

You know, that's true. I was like the word like, Have you been somebody that always kind of gravitated more towards that kind of solo experience towards being alone,

Sailor James 10:21

the way I like to say it, about specifically about ocean crossings, and I've done both I've done solo and I've done crude ocean crossings is that I'm pretty comfortable being uncomfortable. And it's, it would be much harder for me to be on a boat with someone who was miserable. So like, you know, I'm not that miserable. It's like, yeah, there's things that you know, that are ideal, or maybe they're not, you know, they're not 100% comfortable, like you would think of in everyday life. But that's like, the adventure tax, you know, so it's like, to get to see these things that no one gets to see, sometimes you got to you got to pay that tax.

Nick VinZant 11:01

So for somebody who's like, never been out on the open ocean, what's what's it like, compared to like, how is the open ocean different from being near shore?

Sailor James 11:10

Well, for one thing, you can be rescued near shore, um, that like, you know, in the middle of the ocean, there is no rescue or, or if you're lucky, you might get rescued by a cargo ship, but then your vessel or your home, your boat has to be sunk, so that it's not a danger to other boats navigating in the same waters. So that thought, you know, it's not like a helicopter can just come pick you up when you're 1000 miles from shore. So that is wildly different. But on the flip side of that is there's nothing more dangerous to a boat than the shore. So when, like, when I'm navigating close to shore, if I'm doing overnight passages like non stop overnight passages, I'll sleep in the cockpit outside with my alarm set for every 15 minutes, because that's about 20 minutes is about the time a ship will reach you from the horizon if it's traveling at full speed. So about every 15 minutes, you pop up, look around for ships and then lay back down. And even with a is because a lot of small fishing boats don't have that. And if somebody is on that boat, not on watch, they're on autopilot, they can easily run you down. So and So boats do not move very fast, you know, because it is right around the base of like walking swiftly or walking slowly, depending on the wind.

Nick VinZant 12:29

But I mean, that's it, that's as fast as you're going, you'll go in like three or four miles an hour. Oh, yeah. Even if the winds like whipping, you're still like poking around holes.

Sailor James 12:40

A hole speed on my boat, I think is like seven knots, which is like, you know, it's not one for one for like miles per hour. But um, it's not very fast. Yeah. And it's like, that's, yeah, I didn't have mentioned that. I said, you know, like, my passage here from Los Angeles would have been the equivalent to me driving from Los Angeles to Pittsburgh at three miles an hour. Basically.

Nick VinZant 13:03

I thought you were going a lot faster than that. I assumed that like, all right, you get on the open ocean, they're probably doing like 30 or 40. Doing like five

Sailor James 13:12

giant cargo ships, they max out at 30 knots.

Nick VinZant 13:16

Why did I think everything was so much faster.

Sailor James 13:19

But like fancy race boats, like for the America's Cup, they have these boats, these sailboats that look like spaceships almost those things will go like 40 knots, or you know, those those things are totally bananas, but they don't go long distances really at that speed. You know,

Nick VinZant 13:33

I have never understood why it's knots and not just miles per hour.

Sailor James 13:37

Back in the age of sail. The way they would determine the speed of the ship is they had a log that was tied to a rope. And the rope had at specific links had knots tied in it. And they would turn an hourglass over, throw the login and then count how many knots went through their hand until the hourglass ran out. And then they would write down. How many knots in the log book

Nick VinZant 14:05

that makes perfect sense. You know, for like the water conditions out on the open ocean. Is it smoother? Is it wavy? Or is that the right word? Like what's it like?

Sailor James 14:16

Well, depends on almost everything depends on the wind. So the swells generally if there's no wind, they're very long rollers. So the the swells are long. And you know, like long swells are not dangerous. I've sailed in, you know, 20 foot seas in the North Atlantic, but they were long periods and they said they're not breaking waves, so they're not scary. They're intense to see 20 feet hill of water behind you and then suddenly you're on top of it. And then the captain who taught me to sail in Scotland cilia boo, she told me about she sailed to Antarctica and Cape Horn all the stuff she sailed to South Georgia on a boat as crew and she saw 60 foot waves in the southern ocean, where there were 65 Foot, mountain and mountain 60 foot tall mountains of water. And then they were on top of 60 foot mountain of water looking down into the trough 60 feet. So if they're long period and they're breaking, then they're not dangerous. But here in the Pacific, the it's um, it's a very calm ocean primarily other than like if you're in a hurricane track, or if you're in the North Pacific, and if basically it's like it, any ocean in the correct season is fine. If you're out of there, if you're sailing in waters in the wrong season, it's not fine, but the Pacific is very mild compared to the Atlantic. And that's because the Atlantic is, especially specifically like the Caribbean stuff is so the water so shallow, that it supercharges the storms, and that's where all the hurricanes happen there. But there we don't have like hurricanes in Los Angeles.

Nick VinZant 15:46

So when you look kind of forward, and like the in the goal of what's the word, circumnavigating? Like? Is there a spot where you're like, Oh, I'm not ready for this place yet. Or this is gonna be this is gonna be the test.

Sailor James 16:03

Yeah, Cape Horn, the my eventual goal I planned around Cape Horn, which is the most dangerous place in the world. And it's killed 1000s and 1000s of sailors over the years, eventually, all around Cape Horn, and it just depends. And that's the place where you just have to have all your ducks in a row and, and a number of small boats have done it. And again, it's like, waiting out weather windows, you know, and not, you know, that's a lot of it is like, waiting for weather. But with today's technology, it's easier to know what weather it's going to be. So it's easier to sort of like know what you're getting yourself into. But yeah, that Cape Horn will be the spot. That's like, and the Indian Ocean too, but crossing the Indian Ocean from Southeast Asia to Africa will be a challenge. But again, it's a matter of like going in the right season.

Nick VinZant 16:54

Why is that? Such a what makes that place such a rough, rough area?

Sailor James 17:00

Yeah, I don't I don't know probably. I'm not specifically educated on that fact. Or that reason. But I would guess it's in relation to to like Africa and the landmasses around there that just creates, you know, like the storms that are pretty gnarly, the Indian Oceans pretty gnarly. So, yeah, I would just imagine its weather systems that are in relation to the Southern Ocean on one side and Africa, the African continent on the other side. So

Nick VinZant 17:29

when you go for, you know, when you go for a leg of the journey, like how much preparation goes into it, like, how long will you spend, like stocking up or preparing or reading maps or whatever,

Sailor James 17:41

I'm always researching even further ahead. So kind of always, you do quite a bit. And because you kind of got to especially places that are kind of far flung like I'll be going to a lot of uninhabited atolls in the South Pacific. So I'm researching a lot of that, and there's a lot of techniques that goes into visiting those places that you wouldn't necessarily apply anywhere else. So really digging deep and learning from all the people that have gone there before. And with the internet, I'm able to find tons of blogs or, you know, cruising guides or whatever that that tells you things to they need to think about, you know, what's there, what isn't there. And, you know, even like anchoring, and you know, around coral is a different, you anchor around coral in a different way than you would anchor on just like a sandy beach. And even down to you have to really be cautious about collecting rainwater. So you have make sure you have enough water because there's no fresh water, a lot of these add holes and stuff. So yeah, I don't know, I think I think the preparation never stops. But as far as provisioning goes, that's kind of one big bulk thing. You just kind of a provision for kind of double what you think it might be and go from there.

Nick VinZant 18:59

Like how much generally provisions will you carry, like I carry this many days supply of it.

Sailor James 19:05

So my trip from Los Angeles to Hawaii, I thought should have been around 20 to 25 days and ended up being 32. But I had provisioned for 40 days, and had way like way more water than I needed. So I was I was well stocked.

Nick VinZant 19:21

How guess how good at sailing? Do you need to be able to be to go on like a open ocean journey. Right? So let's say 10 Is Black Beard level. I'm the greatest sailor ever and one is like I know how to swim. Like where on a scale of one to 10 Would you say alright, you need to be about here before you even try something like this.

Sailor James 19:42

Well need. It's like should I know it's like people People often ask me like what kind of boat do I need to do this? I'm like, Well, you you can go over Niagara Falls in a barrel. Like is it a good idea? Not necessarily. You know, like the KonTiki was a raft that they drifted from South America to French Polynesia. So like, I just sell to Kawhi with a gentleman named Jeff. And he told me, he had sailed a lot on little lakes on small boats in New York, and then had a dream of sailing, bought like a 37 foot boat had never even slept on a boat, especially in the heat, he on a boat that size, he'd never spent the night on a boat before he got on it and tried to sell the Hawaii. And he successfully did it. But he said he was like, scared to death. And you know, he had some problems, but you know, he worked it out and got it done. So one person, someone told me once that when you start sailing, you get a full bag of luck. And you get an empty bag of experience. And you're, you're like, your job is to fill up the experience bag before your luck bag runs out, you know, people might be able to pull it off in there. At the right time of year in specific oceans, especially trade when sailing is fairly simple, like sailing to Hawaii, you're downwind and down seas. So someone with less experience, that's an easier thing. But you also have a lot of distance to get things wrong and have no way out. Like downwind trade wind sailing is the easiest. And then, you know, upwind sailing is for sure the hardest, I don't. Because basically, you have to think about the ocean currents and the winds. They all move in specific ways around the world like Northern Hemisphere runs one way southern hemisphere runs another way. So you basically plan that with it to to have the most success.

Nick VinZant 21:37

I don't even know how you sail against the wind. I have no idea.

Sailor James 21:41

Yeah, it's well, like modern sailboats that have the sails flat like like sloops or Bermudan sloop. Once they figured that out, it acts like the wing of an airplane. So it uses lift. So that basically like the wind on one side of the sail creates a high pressure system and the wind on the other side of the sail creates a low pressure system, and they want to meet so it's almost like squeezing a watermelon seeds to your fingers. It like pushes it forward.

Nick VinZant 22:10

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is your most memorable experience sailing?

Sailor James 22:18

Probably? Well, for me, it's probably when I lost my rudder and all steerage 1000 miles from Hawaii. I think that one's gonna stick with me for a while. And being adrift in the ocean for three days. That's fairly memorable to me.

Nick VinZant 22:33

So what like obviously you survive this, but how? That seems like a problem.

Sailor James 22:39

Very, very big problem. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 22:41

How did you lose?

Sailor James 22:44

Um, I struggled to submerge object of what I do not know. When I got when I finally got in, and dove on the boat, there was a big red mark on the rudder and a chip out of the back. So it may have been a has a submerged sea container. That's like a known problem. A lot of race boats have hit on and different cruising boats have hit them. Like, I know, I looked up the stats after it happened. And in 2020 alone, 3000 sea containers were lost overboard. And if you think if they're carrying a shipment of foam, they'll float just below the surface. You know, if they're carrying a Boolean object, then they can just float right below the surface. And there was a famous movie, all is lost. And it wasn't Robert Redford, I think, based on that exact thing of him hitting a C container. So that's my best guess. But I didn't hear it happen. I didn't see it happen. So I'm not sure.

Nick VinZant 23:37

How did you then how did you get out of this situation somebody just find you ARE YOU JUST

Sailor James 23:41

NO I, I sailed by drugs. So there's a thing that you can get these things called drugs or see anchors. And basically, they're their purpose, their purpose made for you drive, you trail it behind your boat on a long line. on boats, ropes are called lines. So it's on a long line behind your boat. And it's made to slow your ascent down giant waves. So if you're in a really bad seas, and you're going too fast on waves, and you you could flip this way like pitch pole, this slows your your your speed down, you Dragon, this drug and mine look like a traffic cone, it had holes in it and it creates drag to slow you. So I deployed that and rigged up a pole across the back so that I could move it from one side of the boat to the other to steer the boat. And the easiest way to understand how it works is when you're in a canoe and you're paddling, if you hold your paddle down and hold it flat, it'll turn you this way, return you that way. So that's exactly how this drug worked is like I would move the resistance from one side of the boat which would drag the boat this way and then the other side of the boat would drag it this way.

Nick VinZant 24:50

Now was that was that a technique that you knew ahead of time or did you like well, I got to figure this out somehow.

Sailor James 24:55

I did not know ahead of time at all I had drove on board I had all the gear on board for other reasons. And then I was communicating with my shore team via satellite phone and trying to figure out what my options were. And two of the members of my shore team were captains and they were both sending me information about ways to try to set my drug up to steer the boat and yeah, that's what I ended I ended up doing for 1000 miles for 18 days was no steering I sailed with zero steering um, yeah,

Nick VinZant 25:30

this might that experience might have been in this might be something else but your scariest experience while out there.

Sailor James 25:39

I'm scary it maybe I want to say this, the scariest where I actually felt terror was one night on that same passage, when I was still my rudder was still fine. I came out in the middle of the night and it was in very thick fog. And there was a shadow from my navigation lights. Projecting, like the shadow on the fall the wall of the fog directly behind me and it looked like there was a boat within 20 feet of me. And I, I it was very alarming. I really, really I shit myself. And I was like, Oh my gosh, and and then I sat there for a minute and then realized it was like my own shadow. So I was scared of my own shadow. That was literally as like if I'm going to say the most terrifying. Maybe not the most concerning but the most like actual writer that yeah, for

Nick VinZant 26:39

sure. I like that split second of like, I'm dead. I'm dead.

Sailor James 26:43

I was. Yeah, just terror. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 26:45

Coolest animal you've seen.

Sailor James 26:47

I encountered like four finback whales off the coast of California. And that was pretty amazing. Because they're such big creatures. And I've had a lot of encounters with whales over the years and you know, stampedes of 1000s of dolphins. As far as the horizon could see, I've seen 1000s of dolphins. But seeing these fin backs, I've never seen fin backs before. And they were just it was like very calm seas and they were just just breaching very slowly or not breaching, but you know, servicing very slowly and it was just, it was quite a scene.

Nick VinZant 27:22

What is your favorite sailing related movie?

Sailor James 27:25

Now? Now? Does that mean Movie or Documentary?

Nick VinZant 27:28

I feel like it's got to be movie documentary. I feel like it's cheating a little. Yeah, too easy, too easy. Or the one that sailors would be like, yeah, they got it right.

Sailor James 27:39

Oh, there's no sailing movies that sailors would say they got it right. Other than maybe Captain Ron, that's probably the closest to getting it right.

Nick VinZant 27:46

This kind of leads us into our next question. Honestly, are you prepared for pirates?

Sailor James 27:51

There are only pirates in very, very, very few places in the world near the entrance of the Suez Canal here Somalia is obviously of great concern, but they're actually more interested in while they used to be more interested in capturing cargo ships where they could get millions of dollars for the ransom. The other place where there's like piracy is a concern is in the Malay sea near Malaysia. But that's mostly you just don't sail at night. So like if you buddy boat or you just don't travel at night, you know, mostly it's like local bandits. You know, it's like people who are, you know, trying to find food for their families and stuff. So it's like people are very scared of imaginary boogeyman and piracy is not a great issue at sea.

Nick VinZant 28:43

Not not something that you're staying up at night for necessarily, whatever favorite piece of sailing lingo piece of sailing

Sailor James 28:50

lingo.

Nick VinZant 28:52

I gravitate towards the poop deck I feel like

Sailor James 28:55

most people there's that Yeah. Yeah. I don't know batten down the hatches as always, you know an easy go to have you

Nick VinZant 29:04

ever said something like that in real life though but you've been like batten down the hatches

Sailor James 29:09

here's here's the one here's here it is I got it. My favorite sailing lingo is most certainly land Whoa. And I have for sure always said it when I first started land for sure.

Nick VinZant 29:22

I'm favorite sea shanty? Do you could you have any good sea Santi recommendations?

Sailor James 29:28

Hollaway Oh, Joe is my favorite Sea Shanty.

Nick VinZant 29:31

I don't know what how does that one. Do you remember how that one goes?

Sailor James 29:35

All the way all the way age or?

Nick VinZant 29:38

It's pretty good. There seem to be making a big, big comeback all of a sudden.

Sailor James 29:42

Yeah, yeah. The social media really blew him up recently and a lot of great renditions of him like beautifully song.

Nick VinZant 29:48

Can you make a full time living off of this?

Unknown Speaker 29:51

Absolutely.

Nick VinZant 29:53

Does but do you make a good amount of money or do you just have to like live cheaply,

Sailor James 29:58

you definitely have to live within a Budget. Like my now my full time job is YouTube. So, yeah, it's possible, but it's not necessarily stable. So like as a fallback, I'm a licensed unlicensed, I've hold a Master's license with the US Coast Guard. And that's primarily so I can do yacht deliveries of like, you know, larger yacht deliveries and make a large amount of money, and then use that to kind of cruise on until my funds get low. And then I can do other do more deliveries, or drive dive boats in different destinations. So I've set myself up different sort of employment options for around the world. So I know how to fix everything on a boat of my boat, is totally refit by myself. And I know how to do all that stuff. So I set myself up to be able to work as I travel. But again, you have to live pretty, pretty simply. And be happy with that. Otherwise, it's much harder. But currently, yeah, making YouTube videos and sharing them weekly pays for all my expenses. And it'll get easier as I leave here, because Hawaii is very expensive. Good for you, man. And writing. Like I've published a few books and then moving into like writing articles for magazines and stuff for sailing. And so yeah, it's like that's the the writing is the long game. And then YouTube. There's a lot of people that have made an amazing living off of YouTube. And I'm just like, you know, I don't count my chickens before they hatch, but I'm happy each month when I'm like, okay, cool. Well, this is working out.

Nick VinZant 31:38

So now I'm really curious though, like, how much if you take if you take a boat from or a yacht from, like, la to Honolulu? Like how much? How much does that cost? Like, how much do you get paid for that?

Sailor James 31:49

Well, well, Oh, you mean for a yacht delivery?

Nick VinZant 31:53

Yeah, like how much? Oh, yeah.

Sailor James 31:55

I mean, you can make 20 grand on a big delivery? Well, I guess it takes you that long, right? It depends on Yeah, depends on the distance. It depends. Like, I make like as a delivery captain, I make about $500 a day as a delivery Captain plus all my provisions plus airfare to and from. But the thing is, is like it's not like you can count on a delivery a month, you know? Yeah. So that's the other thing if you get if you get locked in with a, like a broker, specifically on the East Coast, it'd be a good spot. If you if you started working with a broker and you're running boats up and down the East Coast, you can make a regular living as a delivery captain.

Nick VinZant 32:36

That's pretty much all the questions I got for you, man. Is there anything else that's like you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Sailor James 32:44

Yeah, I'm just getting getting the boat dialed in wintering here in Hawaii, and exploring the Hawaiian Islands and getting ready for French Polynesia.

Plastic Surgeon Dr. Gal Aharonov

As a plastic surgeon working in Beverly Hills, Dr. Gal Aharanov has seen it all. And he says there’s a growing dark side to his industry’s focus on beauty. We talk plastic surgery procedures, celebrity transformations, plastic surgery horror stories, what to look for in a good plastic surgeon and how he became famous for making dimples. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Easy Things That Are Hard To Do.

Dr. Gal Aharonov: 02:22ish

Pointless: 40:35ish

Top 5: 55:26ish

https://draharonov.com/ (Dr. Gal Aharonov Website)

https://www.instagram.com/drgalmd (Dr. Gal Aharonov Instagram)

Topics we discuss:

How different plastic surgery procedures are performed.

How much different plastic surgeries cost.

How to find a good plastic surgeon.

How to spot a bad plastic surgeon.

How to know if a plastic surgeon is right for you.

How to tell if a celebrity has had plastic surgery.

What is the easiest, hardest and most painful plastic surgery.

Plastic surgery horror stories and nightmares.

What is the future of plastic surgery and aesthetic medicine.

Interview with Plastic Surgeon Dr. Gal Aharonov

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, plastic surgery secrets, and easy things that are really hard to do.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 0:24

Imagine taking a whole section of your abdomen, and now reattaching it with its vessels, its blood vessels to your face, it might, I might give you exactly what you want be like, This is exactly what you want it and you might be super unhappy. Because it's just not what you imagined it to be. You didn't realize how people would treat you different. But man, I'll tell you it's esthetic medicine is a dirty, dirty field if people only knew it's dirty, because listen, okay, there was a time where, literally, I was the world's leader. In making dimples.

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So when we started this show, this episode is really what we set out to do. Taking a topic that people were familiar with, curious about, and really revealing what the real story is what it's really like to be involved in it. Our first guest is a prominent plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills, who is known around the world. And he has this fascinating story about a industry that is focused on beauty, but can be very dirty. This is plastic surgeon, Dr. Gall aren't off real quick. I have to apologize. There's something in my audio. We're trying to figure out what's going on if it's in the upload, or the recording or whatever. But it's incredibly frustrating for us and we're trying to get it fixed. It's fine. It just annoys me that it's not what it could be. Is plastic surgery. Is it a complicated surgery? Or is it generally fairly uncomplicated compared to other surgeries? Of course?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 2:33

Ah, way less complicated, way less complicated. What do we even think plastic surgery is because I think like lay people associate plastic surgery with with some like, what do you think plastic surgery is?

Nick VinZant 2:47

The first thing that I would go to is like a nose reduction. Right? Like that's the thing that I would think first and you're using a knife, you cut open a side of the nose and you chop half of it off.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 3:00

So I think I think most people have that association with plastics, they think about esthetics, they think about all like, Yeah, but knows looking better, or the face looking better, or, you know, breasts or whatever. So, and there's a lot of other aspects of plastic surgery that are like more reconstructive like, you're actually taking like a big flap of tissue from another part of their body. Like, imagine taking a whole section of your abdomen, and now reattaching it with its vessels, its blood vessels to your face, right just to kind of, you know, fix some like huge defect in the face.

Nick VinZant 3:41

If you looked at plastic surgery as a whole, like the industry, how much of it would you say is kind of the reconstructive aspect and how much of it is I want to look better feel better about myself, like if we broke it into a percentage.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 3:53

I think as time goes by, it's more and more of that esthetic, you know, for for many different reasons. Public Interest demand, it's what people want, there's only going to be so much reconstructive stuff out there. But it's almost like limitless possibilities for this static side.

Nick VinZant 4:15

What like when you look at most kinds of plastic surgery, why is it less complicated than other kinds of surgery?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 4:23

Because it has to have such a high degree of success. Does that make sense? Like for example, if you're going into brain surgery, like you're lucky to come out alive, if you go in for a nose job, and you come out and there was a higher risk of death for that, for example, or, you know, 10% of people came out without a nose at all. I don't think many people would be getting those jobs. But if you got some brain cancer, I mean you do what you got to do you take 10% risk any day of the week.

Nick VinZant 5:00

That makes perfect sense. So then is it less complicated? Because plastic surgeons are like, we're only going to do the easiest stuff, we're only going to do the things we know can be successful, or is it just that? Like, it's really not that difficult to take? centimeters off? Somebody? No.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 5:21

Okay. So when you're talking about complicated, sometimes the complicated is going to be getting that result to be consistently good. Okay, so like, that's another factor, can you get something to be consistently good? And so a surgery might be easy by itself. But now the hard part is going to be to get consistently great results, or to have a predictable result that might be really hard. And yes, some surgeries are harder. nose jobs are known as more complicated not because the surgery is complicated. Anyone can go in there and technically do a nose job. But now there's different techniques, different little modifications, different refinements, that might be a lot harder.

Nick VinZant 6:12

When you go into the surgery, like, do you know exactly what somebody space is going to look like after you do it? Or are you taking more of an educated guess based on experience,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 6:23

you you kind of hope that after doing something a lot, you have a reasonably good idea of what they're going to look like. But it's not 100%? Because there's other factors when it comes to healing, or everyone might do a little different. It's not 100%. So like, I think that's that's like what you have to relate to people like for example, like what you just said, there, people, I think that's what people think of right now, like you probably if you're going to go have surgery right now and actually make that decision, you're going to want to know what you're getting. Yeah, like,

Nick VinZant 6:59

I would want you to show me a picture of what I'm going to look like afterwards. But you couldn't necessarily do that, like you don't completely know

Dr. Gal Aharonov 7:08

doing like we do have software that we could kind of like show you especially for knows it like okay, this is kind of what my plan is, but what the plan is might be totally different than the outcome. And that's what I think I think like, like, for example, if you came in for a console, yeah, to get your expectations to be in line with reality, is that usually a hard part of it? No, that's like 90% of it to be honest. Like, because really think about it. What's What would you consider a good result? What do you think is a good result? A good outcome with plastic surgery?

Nick VinZant 7:43

I guess that would be the difficult part is I don't really even know what a good result would be until after I saw it.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 7:49

Exactly. So you're coming in with expectations, right? And you might be like, Oh, I think I want my nose one inch back. You might not have any idea what that might even look like. It's true. Yeah. And it might, it might give you exactly what you want. Be like, this is exactly what you want it and you might be super unhappy. Because it's just not what you imagined it to be. You didn't realize how your whole fit, you didn't realize how people would treat you different. And now your dots weirded you out? There's so many variables.

Nick VinZant 8:25

Have you ever had clients come back to you and say, like, my whole life is different. People treat me differently. I don't feel like myself anymore.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 8:35

In good and bad ways. I've had people where they felt so great afterwards, that they realize that their their marriages are just not good for them, because that person was mistreating them. And now like they know better, like I'm gonna get myself out of this. So you've seen I've seen people come back and literally say, I got this huge promotion. And people give me so much more respect now after this, and they attribute it to this. So there's good, there's positive and negative and one thing might be positive in some ways and negative in another way

Nick VinZant 9:15

that feels like that says something about a society to right, like my life is exactly like this. And then I got my nose reduced by half an inch and now I've been promoted and I've got a new wife.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 9:26

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy how much and now I don't think that society like I used to think that I honestly I was very for years now. And I'll tell you, it's all changed when I've had children now because now I see how kids are firsthand. And I was like, fuck society. Fuck the media, like your the media is ruining us and all and now I'm like, Nah, man, this is this is our nature, the only thing the media and everyone else I'm like, fuck plastic surgeons, you know, all they do is you're trying to make money doing this stuff. And now I'm like, You know what it's us. Like we're born this way. The media, everything is just about giving us easy access. It's like lowering friction to what we really want. Like, how are your kids? Like, have you noticed something like extremely superficial that your kids kind of think in a way?

Nick VinZant 10:26

No, not really. But they're not aware of it. So I am on the lower side of average and height. I'm five, eight.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 10:35

Okay, so let me ask you this, imagine there was an easy thing that you could do to make you taller.

Nick VinZant 10:43

My wife is five foot and my youngest is probably going to be pretty small in that age of small where it could affect his life. And there's, like, if he's five, four, or five, five, how different would his life suddenly be if he was five, eight, or five, nine.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:02

So different, you know, and that's sad. But it's the truth. It's the truth, especially, you know, I, I hope our world will be less sexist and 20 years, but especially for a man

Nick VinZant 11:15

and but at the same time, then what if you change it, and then he's whole personalities, completely different? Oh, take away what made this

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:22

wonderful person you're right. But again, it's hindsight

Nick VinZant 11:25

when you do a surgery, right? And keep going back to the notes just because it's the easiest thing for me, right? But this everybody's pretty much the same?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 11:33

Well, okay, so you can have an idea, right? You go in and bait again, based on experience, you're like, Okay, I think this might be the issue. And you can have a plan in your head. Alright, this is what I think we're going to need to do. And let's say someone has never had a prior nose job. So you kind of have a good idea what normal anatomy is. For revision rhinoplasty. Everything's out the door, because you have no idea what's going to be in there. But for for like a fresh nose that's never had anything done. You got like, hopefully a decent idea.

Nick VinZant 12:07

Or you should, it still follows like the basic anatomy.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 12:11

Typically, like there might be other things like what maybe one side is more crumpled, and or, you know, this kind of an asymmetry exists in the cartilage or, or this or not, but yeah, it's yeah, there's like, usually typical anatomy, but in the know, you got to think about it. Like it might be typical anatomy. Now, it becomes like, well, how observant Are you? Because it might be typical, but there might be a couple of millimeter difference here and there. And if you're not aware of those couple of millimeters, that might be the difference between a great result and just a mediocre result.

Nick VinZant 12:49

How much room for error do you generally have?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 12:52

I mean, it really depends on your expectations, right? I mean, okay, so let's say your, your nose needs, like, like you got a giant nose, okay, giant, where we could just put a little tiny bomb in there, detonate it, and you'll come out looking better. Right? So so you've got a lot of room for error. Now if let's say your nose is okay, but you got like this one little tiny thing about it you really wish was different. Now we've got less room for error. So so that's what you got to factor in. And sometimes you got to make patients aware of that.

Nick VinZant 13:32

Is there a part of the face that's like, Oh, this is the hardest part.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 13:36

Okay, so here's the thing, like as surgeons, especially nowadays, we become very Mitchie. Were okay, let's say, in our parents generation, you are lucky if your town even had a plastic surgeon or maybe a surgeon in general. So that surgeon got to do everything and people didn't expect much and Great, thanks, Doc. Right people who would bring you gifts and being so thankful and giving you high fives. And now it's like people's expectations are through the roof, and they want to go to the best person for that particular thing. It's very different. It's easy to find that person. So you got a nose person, that's all they do is noses and you've got an eyelid person. All they do is eyelids or any number, any feature there could be a extreme sub specialist in that field. Who that's what they do.

Nick VinZant 14:32

What do you know, what do you specialize in? Oh, man,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 14:35

I mean, I don't really want to talk about myself specifically. But yeah, I mean, like, I'm probably very well known for forehead reductions. Okay, that's like, one of my babies were like literally we have most of our patients are flying in from all over the world for this one surgery. And most surgeons haven't even heard of it. How do you Reduce

Nick VinZant 15:00

somebody's forehead.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:02

Oh, man. It's gruesome. It's gruesome. Imagine scalping someone. Alright, so you cut, they're, they're making incision and you're literally moving the whole scalp forward and cutting away the extra piece of forehead just to make their forehead smaller.

Nick VinZant 15:18

But are she like cutting apart their skull?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:22

Oh, no, you're just lifting, you're lifting the scalp off

Nick VinZant 15:26

the skull. You're like moving their head forward.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:30

Yes, moving the scalp forward.

Nick VinZant 15:33

I have always loved the joke about like, that's not a forehand. That's a six head or that's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 15:37

what it's a funny joke until you realize the person on the other side of that joke is now devastated forever. Right? Yeah, one joke. One joke. This is why I really like I'm sure. I don't know how you are. But I mean, I, you know, I tried to be funny when I was a kid. And, you know, sometimes, we don't know what our funny jokes are actually doing to someone we don't even recall. I had a I had a second cousin once. And, like 10 years after the fact, she told me that when we were kids, I made a made a joke about her acne. And further, and I don't even remember. And for the rest, and since then, she has been so mortified about her skin. And I had no recollection. And here I was with my words, I, I literally changed the way this girl sees herself.

Nick VinZant 16:37

You know, joking around with the friends, the guys, that kind of stuff. I don't point out anything physical about people anymore. Like I have completely stopped doing that. Because you don't like never one person can't usually do anything about it. And it's just, it's just a difficult thing. Well, you have some of your clients come in and be like, I've always just been self conscious about Oh,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 17:01

yeah. I mean, like, like, I have literally people that their whole life. Since they were eight. I'll ask them what how long has this been bothering you? Right? That's like one of my first questions, because you want to have a good assessment of how great of an effect this has even had on their life. And yes, people would be like, since I was a little kid, since my sister made this comment, since my mom made this comment. And it's, yeah, it's it's a huge way.

Nick VinZant 17:30

But then for you, you know, like as a plastic surgeon and other plastic surgeons, do you just notice kind of like everything with people's faces, like, Oh, I could do this to you, I could do this, you would look like this. Like,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 17:41

everybody assumes that when they're talking to me, I'm like, analyzing their face. And I'm just I don't I honestly I don't even look at people, because they think I've just been dumb to it now. And my wife might come back with a different haircut, or her eyebrows done. Or I've no idea. Like, I'm just like every other man, I have no idea. And my wife will be like, Hey, did you notice this about this person's face? And what? No, right? And now people are like, what kind of a plastic surgeon Are you? You don't notice anything? And I'm like, listen, that's mine. I don't want to make it my job to point out people's flaws. That's not fun. I'm here to kind of help someone who has been self conscious their whole life about something.

Nick VinZant 18:30

So being at a Beverly Hills, like I'm imagining that are most of your clients more vanity based, like? Or are they more like self conscious base? I know, that's kind of the same thing. But I think you know what I'm getting,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 18:44

I know what you're getting at then. And I'll tell you, I don't want people to get an idea that they could generalize this. Because everyone's practice is so different. And I feel like you as a person will attract a certain type of clientele. Right, a certain type. That's true. Yeah. And so if you put that energy out there that you just want to like, fix vanity, and then you're gonna get you're probably gonna get more vein people coming to you. You put the energy out there that you're really trying to help people that have some like huge insecurity or weight on them, you're gonna attract that so and that could change in a heartbeat like you one day you change the way that you speak and that's gonna affect like, how, how people come to you or see you.

Nick VinZant 19:35

So is there a percentage in terms of like, okay, if I do this many consultations, this many people will actually go through with

Dr. Gal Aharonov 19:41

it. Um, okay, so here I have, like plastic surgery, like medicine in general, is very gray. It's not always black and white. And we try to make it as black and white as possible with like, algorithms and all this stuff and and For some fields in medicine, it's very easy to do to have kind of an algorithm of how you treat something. But man, I'll tell you it's a static medicine is a dirty, dirty field, if people only knew it's dirty, because, okay, let me ask you this, like, how you how do you like to live your life? Like, how would you how would you categorize yourself? Are you a simple man? Simple. I'm a simple person, too. But let's say I wasn't right. Let's say, I liked having a boat. And I like to have a big house. Well, I got to pay for that. So how am I gonna pay for that? Well, sounds gonna be patients are going to come to my office. And even if I aren't, if I'm not even aware of it, subconsciously, I might have the weight of my mortgage on my mind.

Nick VinZant 20:51

It's true, you are making a sale at the same time making a

Dr. Gal Aharonov 20:55

sale. And that's true in all of medicine to some degree. But in esthetic medicine, forget about it. I mean, it is. I mean, who's to say who's to say what should be done or not?

Nick VinZant 21:09

I'll I can definitely see that right. And people who are just with you get an A sort of unscrupulous, unscrupulous, whatever, whatever one of those words is correct. So he's like, Well, I could do this too. I could do that. You should have that done. Yeah, I could definitely see it getting like, oh, yeah, sales, maybe

Dr. Gal Aharonov 21:26

it's people don't realize that. And here we are as a society. And we think that like, oh, you know, if someone has a lot of stuff, they must be really good at what they're doing. Or must be, like really successful. But maybe they're just a little greedier. Okay, so esthetics is its own separate beast now, because you can have some, like esthetic doctor in Turkey, making a ton of money, when other doctors aren't doing, like, aren't making anything there. But esthetics is a huge draw now.

Nick VinZant 22:02

How much? I mean, when you look at like most plastic surgeries, like how much are they usually cost it?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 22:08

But it could be it could range like crazy, like, Okay, if you're talking about noses, you could find someone willing to do your nose for practically nothing, right? Like maybe a couple of $1,000. Or maybe they'll even find a way to finagle doing it on insurance or something like that. And you get people charging 2030 $40,000 for a nose job. That's how that's how much of a range there there is for everything.

Nick VinZant 22:41

When you look at like other doctors, is there. Are there bad ones, basically like, oh, he screwed that one up?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 22:49

Oh, like, Okay, so now there's people that consistently screw things up. We're all going to screw something up. We're all going to screw something up. It's really about how often you do it. And if you're doing if you think you're going to hit a home run 99% of the time, forget about it. There's no way I mean, you're a lucky to make someone happy 99% of the time. And if you're doing 100 surgeries, that means one person's really unhappy.

Nick VinZant 23:21

And all you need is that one. Oh, he's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 23:23

the one they like the i I'm very sensitive man. Like if someone's unhappy, I take that really, really hard. Like I don't want someone to be unhappy with something that I've done.

Nick VinZant 23:37

Oh, let me ask you this for so like what kind of training generally like how much training does a plastic surgeon usually have to go through?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 23:42

So okay, so again, there's many different ways to get to become a plastic surgeon. But let's say typically, you know, you go to med school, and then you do a residency that typically it's a surgical residency, and then you could do a fellowship. There's all kinds of different fellowships. So that's like, if you could be a female, it could be like, with medical school, like, over a decade easy.

Nick VinZant 24:08

Alright, you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Ah, bring it. Have you ever had somebody back out on the table?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 24:17

I've had to cancel some surgeries last second. Personally, not really on the table, but like in that holding room, right? Because like right before surgery, you're, you kind of see the patient in the pre op area. And yeah, I've cancer patients. I've had people. I don't think anyone backed out last second, but I've kind of felt that maybe the right thing would be to cancel because they're not ready. Right? And you don't want someone to have surgery just because they got to this point.

Nick VinZant 24:51

Can you pretty much like you've been doing it long enough. You can tell like okay, this person really doesn't know versus this person is just nervous.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 24:59

Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I try to suss them out beforehand. I spent a long time before we get to that point, you know, meet them the day before the week before, whatever, just like one last time before surgery. And I suss them out. Because listen, I don't want that. Like we said, I don't want an unhappy patient or someone who doesn't know what they're getting themselves into. I'm like, screw that. Like, why? Why is that worth it for me?

Nick VinZant 25:24

How come some people who have gotten plastic surgery don't look human anymore?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 25:29

Oh, man, I know, what are we doing to ourselves?

Nick VinZant 25:33

Is is that because they got a bad one? A couple of bad ones, or just you've done this too much.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 25:40

It could be anything like that. It could be any of those. It could be one bad thing just really screwed them up? It could be? Yeah, a few things that additively caused this. And why I mean, man, it could be their judgment. People come asking for craziest stuff all the time. And you got to talk sense into them. And some surgeons, that's that's their aesthetic. They kind of like that look, maybe or they think it looks good. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 26:12

What's the craziest request you've ever had?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 26:16

Listen, okay, there was a time where, literally, I was the world's leader in making dimples. Okay, put that into perspective. How crazy that is like somebody called my office once and asked if I do dimples, and I've never even never even crossed my mind. And not even a year later, I'm literally the world's expert at dimples because of that phone call. Right? So people ask for crazy as shit all the time. Hey, how do you make a dimple? Ah, you know, I like it. The simple answer is you literally make a little cut inside their mouth where dimple should be and you, you kind of like tie the muscle down and create a little little dimple. That's the simple answer.

Nick VinZant 27:10

This question is just should we be doing this? And I think what they mean by that is like, obviously, from a medical standpoint, like we can do it, we can take this thing from this part of your body and put it on your face. But I guess is there does it just work normally then?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 27:28

No. I always have the philosophy that like, anytime you cut yourself or do anything, things will just never be exactly the same. There's there's no there's no such thing as perfect surgery that has left no trace at all. I wish we never did any of this stuff. I'll be honest, I wish we lived in a world where we could all just be fully accepting of ourselves and our imperfections. But I just don't think we're built that way. I just don't think we are. And I think that like if they had this this type of ease 1000s of years ago, they would have done it back then.

Nick VinZant 28:12

Oh, yeah. No, I would say that we like we're never going to change. Right. It's one of those things. I understand what you mean, right? Like, we shouldn't be doing this. But we were always going to be doing this who is our who's easier to do surgeries on generally women or men?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 28:27

Oh, well, I mean, like, anatomically or just personality wise.

Nick VinZant 28:33

I guess both.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 28:34

I mean, anatomic? It depends. It really depends. Like for example, men's faces have a lot more vascularity. So they'll plead more when you do surgery. Like that's one thing I don't think most people know. They're just more vascular. But yeah, a lot of it is psychology. I think the hard part about plastic surgery is just like expectations. And because really, as a surgeon, you're like okay, well how am I going to meet this person's expectations or hopefully exceed them and there's just way more factors than just the that the actual surgical result and achieving that goal.

Nick VinZant 29:17

Hardest surgery. Easiest surgery, most painful surgery.

Dr. Gal Aharonov 29:23

I think I would say most plastic surgeons and esthetics would would say that rhinoplasty these are the hardest surgeries again, not because they're hard but because it's hard to get consistent results all the time. So that's the hard part. Easiest surgery look there's you could always make something hard or easy right? Anything we do we could there were there was like okay, like 50 years ago there were people doing rhinoplasty surgeries Okay, there was this guy name. I think his name was gold man, if I remember correctly, like really obviously he's dead now. But he would do these rhinoplasty is called the Goldman tip. It took him like five minutes to do five minutes, you'll go in there and with a knife, just go cut cut. And that was the surgery. It was called they did this thing called the Goldman tip surgery to narrow a tip. And it took five minutes to do. And he was world famous. I mean, look, here I am i I'm talking. I'm still known all this time, though, right? Don't know. And it was the easiest thing on on. And now no one should be doing that because it caused so much. So many long term issues. Oh, yeah, people couldn't even breathe afterwards. But they love their cute little tiny, narrow tip. I had a girl, I had a girl last week, and we're gonna do her rhinoplasty and I told them she couldn't breathe. And I'm like, listen, to get you to breathe. We got to make your nose a little wider right here. Because it's too narrow. It's just like, fuck that. No way. I'd rather not breathe.

Nick VinZant 31:03

I wonder how many people if you said, look, I can make your eyes look perfect. But you're only going to be able to see at one of them. How many people would probably be like, Okay,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:12

I'll bet some I'll bet more than we would expect.

Nick VinZant 31:16

Okay, I try to ask this question in a way that you can answer it. If you were to rank famous people on a scale of like 10 is the most famous people. And one is like they're famous, but like, what number would be the most famous person then you've consulted or operated while?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:34

You're probably nine, I would say

Nick VinZant 31:37

is pretty much everybody in Hollywood had one. Listen, we

Dr. Gal Aharonov 31:41

live in a world where what city? Do you live in? Seattle? Okay, so here in LA, the crazy thing? I think most 20 something year old normal girls have had something at this point. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy to me like that, it just becomes so normal now to just go get your lips done. Or go get a little something here or get a little bit. It's just crazy to me.

Nick VinZant 32:10

The only thing that I would say that annoys me about it. And I don't know if in no way is the right word. Give me some growth is when people don't admit to it, right? Like if a celebrity is just like, No, I just look like this. Or I just use this skincare product. When in reality like you've had all this stuff done. That's the only thing that I feel like they're creating an unrealistic expectation,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 32:35

you know what, and to me, it's like, I see being a role model is a huge responsibility. Right? So sometimes you got to think to yourself, like, for example, I don't really like being in public that much. Honestly, I kind of shy away from publicity. And it's just not my thing. I don't like being recognized. But if you're making a conscious effort to be a recognizable figure, and now you know that you are a role model, you've got to like, at least me, you got to see that as some responsibility. And now you got to ask yourself, Okay, well, what am I doing to people if I'm their role model?

Nick VinZant 33:17

Have you seen the movie face off? And it's

Dr. Gal Aharonov 33:20

so cool. Yeah. With Nicolas Cage. Could you do right? Yeah, it's, uh, maybe I think it'd be I, will we be there one day? I don't know. I think that's a little extreme. But if you think about, we could make so many modifications. Now, I have people bring in a picture of what they want to look like, whether it be a celebrity or whatever. And they're like, Okay, I need this a little bit more like this. And so it doesn't have to be so extreme, like, let's just switch faces. But is there's a lot we can do now.

Nick VinZant 33:53

Can you can you fundamentally change what somebody is look like? And I mean, that in the sense, like, can you take an apple and change it into an orange? Or can you just take take an apple and change it into a different kind of Apple?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 34:07

So I think there's like some things about us that are really recognizable. I don't know if you remember a few years ago. What's her name? What's that actress from? Bridget Jones's Diary. What was the name? Zellweger? Yeah, remember, Zellweger? Remember, people were just flipping out like what did you do to her face?

Nick VinZant 34:28

I do remember that kind of I remember Jerry Jones from the Cowboys when he like had like, whoa,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 34:33

you know what? And I get this all the time. So So sometimes we have a really recognizable feature about us. Whether it's be br eyes, or something or nose. Like oh, what's your name? JENNIFER GRAY. You remember JENNIFER GRAY from Dirty Dancing. No, you don't you know why? You know why don't remember her. She went she got a nose job. And she looks like Different person. And then And then so you look at at Renee Zellweger, she didn't really do that much she went, she got her some eyelid surgery just to cut away a little bit of the extra skin. And that just changed her look drastically. So you know, you sometimes you don't have to do that much to change your look drastically. But if it's like a really prominent feature on you like something that that is really weather striking. And when you are another what something that that kind of gives you your character. And if you change that sometimes even slightly, that can make a real big difference.

Nick VinZant 35:38

I do remember that now. And I think that she's in some new show. And I was like, Who the hell is

Dr. Gal Aharonov 35:44

that? Oh, yeah, you got the Google JENNIFER GRAY before all she did. She went she got her nose done. And it wasn't even a bad rhinoplasty. But she had like, it was just her feature. And she changed it and boom, poof, different person.

Nick VinZant 36:02

Now, could you see that comment ahead of time? Yeah, what used to be like cry change that. I

Dr. Gal Aharonov 36:06

say that all the time. That's my I tell that sometimes people listen, and sometimes they don't. And I'm like, ma'am, please don't change that about yourself. That's like your character. And they'll be I don't like my character. And you're like, Well, you say that now. But let's see you lose that and how you feel that?

Nick VinZant 36:26

That's true. Yeah, that's crazy, right? Like somebody has a very identifiable thing. And if they lose that, then you're like, oh, who the hell are you anymore? Um, oh, how can I spot a bad plastic surgeon?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 36:40

Yeah. It's so hard. It's so hard. Because Okay, I'll be honest, let's say nowadays, right? You, you look up someone's website, and you look at their reviews, and you look at their before and after photos. And you gotta you gotta say to yourself, even if you see a lot of great before and after photos. You don't know what percentage of the time they got that result? How that's yeah, people's truth about that, like, Okay, is it they just have good judgment about what a good result is? Like, can you imagine if you if you did 100 surgeries, and one of them turned out really great. But now you're only showing that one, you're not showing the 99 others that turned out horribly? People might think you're a great surgeon. These are the things the public, they just, you know, they're not awareness. Not you know, it's not like we're expecting to be aware. But, man, it's a it's very easy to manipulate people's opinions now, like, what makes a great surgeon now like the person who has the most followers on on tick tock? I get contacted all the time, like, hey, we have a spot available for this article. We're writing about the best plastic surgeons in America do you want to pay to be in it?

Nick VinZant 37:59

Next, that is for people who may not be aware, a lot of times when you see those kinds of Best of lists can be on that list all the time. All the time, pretty much now. Like they're usually pretty much bullshit,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 38:14

man. It's, yeah, it's all bullshit. And people don't know that. Right? Because people like they want to, to have some trust. They want to feel like they're going, they're going to have a great result. They're going to a great surgeon, but there's no way of knowing that's the scary part.

Nick VinZant 38:32

That's crazy, right? Um, where do you think it goes in the future?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 38:37

There, there's no end. There's no end. It's all going to be oh, here's Yeah, some new thing that is now easy to do. If we can make something easy, then there's a market for it. That's really, like that's the limiting factor. How many things can we make easy and accessible?

Nick VinZant 38:58

But do you think we'll even get to the point of like, well, you know what, your shoulder blade sticks out a little bit?

Dr. Gal Aharonov 39:04

Yes. Where there were there I know a surgeon who literally reduces the size of people's clavicles because it makes their their neck and shoulder looks better. It's not It's crazy or or reduce the size of someone's calves or make the calves bigger or so many things. There's no end there's listen as a person who literally for years was the world's dimple expert, and how ridiculous that is and how many people flew in for such a ridiculous thing. I am not surprised by anything anymore.

Nick VinZant 39:43

Who has the world's dental title now who did you lose the title? No,

Dr. Gal Aharonov 39:46

I stopped doing them because I just found it to be so ridiculous and I wanted to pursue other things. So years ago, I stopped promoting it. I stopped like I turned people away. We don't really promote it. I think there's a guy in Georgia now who basically does a lot of them and promotes himself as doing them. I don't know him personally, but he's, he's now the king, I lost my I lost my crown.

Professional Disc Golfer Ricky Wysocki

Ricky Wysocki is the best Disc Golfer in the world. But not too long ago he was sleeping in his car and living off the dollar menu. We talk Disc Golf, the secrets to improving your game and pursuing your passion. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Funnest Things to Throw.

Ricky Wysocki: 01:55ish

Pointless: 24:25ish

Top 5: 37:42ish

https://twitter.com/sockibomb13

https://www.instagram.com/sockibomb13

Topics we discuss:

How Ricky Wysocki became the best Disc Golfer in the World

Ricky Wysocki’s exercise, practice and diet routines

How much does Ricky Wysocki Practice

The best tips for new disc golfers

The best tips for experienced disc golfer

How to throw a disc golf disc

How much do professional disc golfers make

What discs are in Ricky Wysocki’s bag

Interview with Professional Disc Golfer Ricky Wysocki

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, disc golf, and the funnest things to throw,

Ricky Wysocki 0:20

I think that's so entertaining. And that's what drew me to the sport when I first started, and how much more involved it is than just throwing a disc. You got to shape the disc go around trees, and there's so many more variables than I started off sleeping in my car traveling around all the tournaments that the professional tour had. And I wasn't making any money sleeping on sleeping in my car. And so it just turned into a battle with myself to fight off what people are telling me and as a young kid, that's hard. For anyone, that's the difference between four or five years ago and now is there's a little bit more benefit. I think, now that people more people know about it.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is now the best disc golfer in the world. But just a few years ago, he was sleeping in his car, eating off the dollar menu. So it's really a fascinating story about not only the ins and outs of what it's like to be a professional disc golfer. But also what can happen if you stay committed to something that you're passionate about. This is professional disc golfer. Ricky why Saki real quick. I did something to my audio. But Ricky's is great. His story is fascinating. And I don't usually talk much in interviews anyway. So I hope you enjoy. So from an outsider's perspective, it seems like disc golf is suddenly way more popular.

Ricky Wysocki 2:00

Yes, our sport has grown leaps and bounds throughout the just the past two years, I think the pandemic was actually we have a professional organization that PDGA. And they actually grew to, like 10 years worth of growth in two years. So like I said, the pandemic, people want to be outside people want to be in the local parks. And why not throw throw discs around and play a local course and gain a new hobby in the process?

Nick VinZant 2:25

Do you think that will last? Or do you think this is like a blip and we ride this thing as far as we can.

Ricky Wysocki 2:31

So for me personally, I think that the sport and as fun as it is, and how exciting it is to throw shots and see how it just flies, I think that's so entertaining. And that's what drew me to the sport. When I first started that I think that once people try the sport out and really see how fun it is, and how much more involved it is than just throwing a disc, you got to shape the disc go around trees, and there's so many more variables than, than what meets the eye when you first play it that people will will continue playing even after the hopefully the pandemic is over. And so I think that, that the growth is sustainable, and the people that the people that are playing are going to continue to play and then there's just going to be more and more people that see find the passion just like the people that already are playing Disc Golf.

Nick VinZant 3:16

Okay. So like outsider again. To me, it looks like you're throwing a Frisbee, right? Explain to me why that it's so much more complicated than that.

Ricky Wysocki 3:27

Just like any professional sport, you can. There's so many different levels to it. There's someone just starting like a lot of the people over the pandemic. And then there's people like me that practice train workout, and it's my career. That's what I do. I travel and I'm a professional disc golfer. And so I think that that's the beauty of it. Is there somewhere for everybody to fit into the sport.

Nick VinZant 3:47

When did you realize like you were Oh, I'm good.

Ricky Wysocki 3:50

So I grew up in Ohio and I just grew up near a local course that had a local park near me I could I could almost throw this to the course from where I grew up. So that was a definitely a bonus. And and so I just grew up I went to the course played and practiced every day and I just fell in love with with with this Golf I just enjoyed watching it disc fly. I enjoyed when all the body movements work together and you through a good shot. It's much like golf the form and is so important in how you move your body propels the disc and so I like the individuality of it. It's you control your destiny if the shot goes good or goes bad, it's all up to you. And and so yeah, that was that was what really drew me to it and and yeah,

Nick VinZant 4:35

why are you good at a lot of

Ricky Wysocki 4:37

different reasons. But I think that um, I've always been athletic. I've always loved competition. I've always been the type of person that find something and I go all in on something whether it's, for me, it's been like nutrition, health and wellness, disc golf. And so I just I did whatever it took to to grow as a person as a as an athlete, and do whatever it takes to just keep getting better and going, going up the pyramid have grown through the ranks of the sport and growing up as an amateur Junior and amateur than a professional. And so for me, it was just, I dove out in the deep end, I went on tour on the professional tour, and I was like 1617 years old. And, of course, I didn't succeed at first, I started off sleeping in my car traveling around all the tournaments that the professional tour had, and I wasn't making any money sleeping on sleeping in my car, eating off the dollar menu at McDonald's just to make it and but that allowed me to get exposure allowed me to gain experiences that I would have never been able to experience if I didn't sleep in my car and eat off the dollar menu. And so that's kind of what shaped me in my career. And I think it's just a test of my personality of, I'm going to do whatever it takes, and you know, put all my eggs in one basket, because you always hear people saying, Oh, you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. But sometimes you have to, to really get paid off on your, your career path or what your vision is.

Nick VinZant 6:03

Did you ever think of like the same kind of work?

Ricky Wysocki 6:07

Obviously, you know, as a young kid, you know, you don't mind? You know, I think it's easier to grind it out in like I said, sleep in your car and do all the things I was doing as a rookie to try and make it and so there was times that yeah, there's adversity, there's, there's, you're like, I'm not making any money. I'm out here just basically donating my entry fees to the professional field. And, and, and, you know, cost money to live cost money to enter the tournaments. And, and so you just kind of reflect and just think, hey, maybe this isn't for me. But, but I fought through that. And I just kept practicing. And I kept my mind to doing everything I needed to do to get better and grow even if it was just a little bit you know, from week to week, you grow that little bit even if you're not making money, you're growing as a player and that is going to slowly pay dividends as as my career career developed. And that's luckily what happened for me.

Nick VinZant 7:00

from a physical standpoint, though, it's not like Ricky's got the best design wrists for snapping the Frisbee, right? Like, there's not something like a basketball player, right? Like, you got to be pretty tall. There's not something physically about you. They're like, Ooh, man, that guy's who is a DISPRO right there. So actually,

Ricky Wysocki 7:21

they're they're kind of is a lot of the a lot of top players are long and lanky. That's kind of like a very common trait for people that can throw far. So obviously, that's one of the many ways to measure someone as a player is how far you can throw. And just like any sport, you're always you're always wanting to push the limits how far can far can you throw, how can I gain more distance, just like golf, you know, you'd be more distance you have, the easier it is to play courses because you're farther a lot closer to the hole. So same to disc golf. Same for Disc Golf. So a lot of the top players, obviously not all of them, there's just like basketball, there's some players are five foot seven are good. And there's players are seven foot two that are good, you know, but in general, longer, lanky, 6465 a lot of players I'm six for myself, a lot of the other top players are 6465 that long, you know long arms, being able to get full, better extension when you're reaching back and trying to get the leverage on the disc. So to answer questions, yeah, there is a certain build that are better off and set you up to throw further. Don't like I said, don't get me wrong, loose. They're shorter players on tour that harness a lot of energy and throw really far as well. But but it's just like a lot of sports that you know, they may have to work harder. They have to, you know, fight a little harder to to gain that same distance that maybe someone of my height or even taller than me would.

Nick VinZant 8:45

So what what separates a pro like you from somebody who's just really good? Like are you throwing it farther? Are you more accurate? Can you like carving around a building? Like what what's what makes you a pro?

Ricky Wysocki 8:58

I think it's my training I think that you know, I take it serious I'm you know, I work out a lot I do a lot of resistance bands stretching, eating healthy, stable stability, mobility drills with with my workouts, I'm doing a lot of that. And so, and then when it comes to physically on the course, it's it's a lot of Yeah, I can make the shots when I need to I but I've been on tour for now 1011 years. So I've got a lot of experience. And so that all pays off. And it's just just like any sport, you want to be able to make that putt or make that long shot down the stretch of a tournament to win that tournament. And so the people that can handle the pressure and handle adversity are going to separate themselves within the sport. Being from a good to you know, a top 1% In your sport me being the best player in the world. Yeah, there's certain things in certain shots that I've been I'm better at a higher percentage. It's just like any sport higher percentage of if I have let's say just for Disc Golf, we use feet so like a 30 foot putt Say the 20th place guy in the world, you know, we both may make that putt, but I may make it at 95%, he may make it at 87%. And so that percentage doesn't come into play eventually. And, and that's where that small minute difference makes a big difference. Say that last let last putt maybe for the win on the last hole of a tournament. And that's why I'm number one. And that's why maybe some other people are not, it's all about, it's all about percentages, and how you get the highest percentages in each category putting driving approach game.

Nick VinZant 10:30

So hope this question doesn't come off as like a jerk question. But did people ever kind of tried to discourage you or other pros, right? Like I'm imagining the scene in the movie where the dad is like, Ricky, you? Can't you? What's he doing with his life? He's preventing professional golfer, right? Like, Do people ever kind of do that to you?

Ricky Wysocki 10:52

People definitely tried to say, Hey, you can't make can make this a career, you can't do that. You can't you know, and it just goes back to like, my parents actually did it. Because my parents wanted obviously, they want to look out for the best for the kid. And I was playing a lot of baseball. And I was I was very good at baseball. And I feel like I could have went to college potentially. And but they but I decided to go on to this Golf Tour instead. And so there's people that my parents were were the number one obviously, at 1617 years old, I want to call them and tell them about my life. But they weren't really interested because they wanted me to go the conventional path. And at the time, disc golf wasn't really what it is. Now, there wasn't really much of a career path there. And and so for me, it was different than most other people because nowadays, I think there's there's career paths for for young kids and players coming up and way more than it used to be. But yeah, for me, I definitely it was, yeah, I had to fight through, you know, people telling me no, you can't do that. And, you know, and then you start doubting, like, hey, maybe, you know, maybe this disc golf thing isn't, you know, isn't for me, or it's not gonna make me any money or it's not gonna give me what I want. But, you know, I get to travel, I got to travel the world, I got to see so many new places, new courses, that it wasn't just all about the money either at the time.

Nick VinZant 12:06

This is something that kind of fascinates me, right? Because we've talked to people who have a kind of a similar story in the sense that, like, how do you stick with something when everybody else is like, You're wrong, but you know, you're right. Like, how do you stick with that?

Ricky Wysocki 12:22

Yeah, that's, that's a hard question. Because it's like, you know, it's I didn't you know, at the time, you don't really, you know, you have to, it's basically it comes to a point where it's all mental. It's all hey, this person is telling me one thing, I know something else. So what's gonna, what's gonna, what's gonna win? Am I gonna let someone else win? That's telling me how you can't do this? Or am I going to be mentally strong and say, Hey, no, I'm going to do this. So for me, it was the mental fortitude to fight through that and say, Hey, like, the sport can grow, I'm going to grow as a player, as an athlete, I can get better. And at the time, it was like, you had to be like, you know, top one or two in the world to really make any money. Now, it's like the top 50 or 100 can really make money in the world. And so so for me, it was like very far fetched to say, Hey, I'm going to be the number one player in the world at one point and make money make a brand, and really have a following enough to where I can make a living out of it. And so it just turned into a battle with myself to fight off what people are telling me and as a young kid, that's hard because you get easily influenced by other people. And, and you know, they're just looking out for your best interest. So you're like, alright, if these older, more experienced people are telling me this, that could be true. So you had to just completely even though you know, it was kind of true, you had to just kind of kind of avoid it and not really think about it and just focus on yourself and focus on what you can control and not what other people are saying.

Nick VinZant 13:49

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, do you have a general strategy when approaching the course I will

Ricky Wysocki 13:57

I normally play if it's a tournament event ProTour event I will show up about three or four days ahead of time, scope out the course play three or four rounds take mental notes on each hole, how my how my disc reacts in certain holes, how it skips off the ground how how the winds affecting it on that hole. So there's so many dynamics within each hole and each course that I'm dialing in mentally so that way when I play the tournament, I have I have a mental note saying hey, this hole does this this whole you know disc roll off of this hill and generally trickle to the right or there's water on the left that dislike to skip into naturally. And so there's just all these different variables that I'm thinking of to to make my shot perfect as best as I can.

Nick VinZant 14:41

Do you get mad if somebody says frisbee golf instead of disc golf?

Ricky Wysocki 14:46

No, I don't get mad I think it's just you know, newer players or newer people in the sport they just they think they see a frisbee and they see we're playing golf and it's pretty easy to say hey, it's frisbee golf. But everybody in our in the sport like Professional and everybody anybody that's been around it just calls it disc golf but I think it's just all today's is, you know, you can tell if someone's a newbie or newer player or or more seasoned veteran or someone that's been around the game they you know that that's how you can kind of decipher the two. But it's not really like, hey, we judge the people that call it Disc Golf. It's a frisbee golf. It's not like that. It's just it's just another way to call it and it doesn't we don't really take offense to it some. Some people do but me I'm I don't really I don't take offense to that.

Nick VinZant 15:28

Like, what's the difference between the Frisbee and the disc, right, because I've tried the sport before and I can throw a Frisbee, but I tried to throw that thing and I'm like, What the fuck?

Ricky Wysocki 15:37

So frisbee is like, what you think of like a beach Frisbee? It's real, like real thick. It's real big, big in the hand. And then so I'd say like, it's thick like that. I would say like that thick versus a disc golf disc is like real thin. Yeah, it's real thin in the end, and it has, it's really aerodynamic. So that's the difference between a frisbee and a disc is the aerodynamics how far it goes. So regular Disc Golf disc can go way further if you throw it right then then actual like beach frisbee or an ultimate frisbee or whatever. Something with a real thicker lip and not quite as aerodynamic. So that could be that's a big difference between frisbee golf and disc golf. Potentially, if you really want to get you know nerdy with it.

Nick VinZant 16:17

Do you throw it differently?

Ricky Wysocki 16:19

Um, no, you So you throw it similarly, but the motions the same but there's little intricacies like how you release your wrist on certain shots based on how the Frisbee flies. So, in this golf, you basically your your wrist and your arm is is the is where the disc is going to go. So it's just think of it like a club. If you if you finish with your clubface open your ball is gonna go right. So I finished my wrist down on my arm like this, my Frisbee is gonna go left just based on the gravity and aerodynamics of how a disc flies. So essentially, your arm and your wrist control were the discos and and that's the most important thing in the throat.

Nick VinZant 16:55

When you look at like an amateur, what are you seeing that like, Oh, you're doing this.

Ricky Wysocki 17:02

So the biggest flaws when I see newer players is they like to throw it like right up in straight up in the air. And it's just like lifting your shoulders up one way or another instead of trying to keep on good posture, and rotating. That's the most important thing. And and almost what I like to tell people is it's like, if you want to throw straight, which is the most important shot when you're first learning is you got to feel like you're sliding your arm across a table tabletop to keep that nice flat plane coming through. Yeah. So so if you if you deviate from that if you go too low or too high, you're you're not going to be on that tabletop. So if you can slide across that tabletop all the way through your shot all the way through your throat, then you're going to have a nice flat shot. And so in general, that's a great tip for beginners to start and learn how to practice throw straight,

Nick VinZant 17:49

favorite course course that just has your number.

Ricky Wysocki 17:53

So my my favorite course is probably in Vermont. So Vermont, they have a ski resort smuggler's notch resort in Vermont, it's a well known ski resort. And then in the summer, they turn it into like a world class disc golf course. And we have big events. We've had the World Championships out there. We have big events every year. So it's an amazing property. And it's one of the most well known on the tour. And then of course, it has my number let's see here. Um, there's, there's a course and and so in Europe, there's a European Open, it's in Finland, that course is it always seems to challenge me a lot. It's a it's a course that has this a lot of OB a lot out of balance. And I just sound for some reason don't play very well there. And it's in. It's in Finland, it's in Tampere, Finland. So there's always a big disc golf major there. And it's a European Open. And that's a that's one of the obvious biggest tournaments, Europe.

Nick VinZant 18:54

Is there like a mecca for Disc Golf? Right? Like you think of snowboarding you're thinking of like Park City or something?

Ricky Wysocki 18:59

Yeah, I would say Charlotte, North Carolina. So Charlotte Scott per capita want some of the most courses and the most pros are there because the best courses, but yeah, if you're in the say, the downtown area of Charlotte, and you drive like let's say 30 or 40 minutes in a circle, any direction you can hit. Probably like a couple 100 courses.

Nick VinZant 19:21

What's in your bag right now.

Ricky Wysocki 19:23

So Dynamic Discs, that's my sponsor right here. They're a disc golf manufacturer and, and so I throw a lot of their discs and latitude. And so they latitude this and also Westside this so those are the three companies I throw right now.

Nick VinZant 19:38

First Date, man, correct me on the numbers, right. 4,000,004 years. Whoo. First thing you bought,

Ricky Wysocki 19:47

actually, first thing I bought was crypto. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 19:50

And that is a that is a modern purchase, isn't it?

Ricky Wysocki 19:53

So yeah, I just I I've just always been a believer and I wanted to invest invest in something and I felt coming trouble with that, and I, you know, I'm a firm believer in it. So yeah, I wanted to invest in that. And yeah, I wanted to, to make good investment I think that will pay off in the next five to 10 years.

Nick VinZant 20:09

Now. He said, Okay, so you're a professional, you can obviously do this full time right now. Right? Can you though retire, like when I'm done, this is um, done like you're set financially for the next the rest of your life, or you make a pretty good mount and then you got to go get a job at Goldman Sachs or whatever.

Ricky Wysocki 20:28

So So yeah, the for me in my where I'm at in my career, the disc golf, you can the disc golf career, I would say is much like an I would say an NBA or baseball player, it's like 37 to 40. It was usually depending on how you take care of your body injuries, all that. But yeah, and then after the after you retire. For me, it'd be getting into like course design. So using my brand, my name, and everything. And in going to city parks and saying, Hey, I'm a world champion, I can design a par disc golf course for your city. And so I have a brand and I have, you know, a following that, that would be totally worthwhile. And people would want that it would be a big draw. And so that stuff you can get into even after your playing days, is working with the manufacturer to be a team manager for all the top professional players of that team, doing course design. So there's lots of different opportunities that once you build your brand, you can kind of parlay your playing career into your business career. After that.

Nick VinZant 21:30

I'm going to ask this question exactly as it has been written so that it doesn't sound like I'm asking it, does being a disc golfer help you or hurt you when looking for love at the bar?

Ricky Wysocki 21:45

Anyone? So I guess I'm not I don't, I don't go to the bar for that. But if I did, I think it would be a lot more beneficial lately now that the sports grown a lot, because more people have heard about it. If you you know, say if you went to the bar four or five years ago and said, Hey, I'm a professional disc golfer, they'd be like, what's that? And then you got to like, explain to them what disc golf is. And it kind of kind of ruins the moment, you know, like, you have to explain what you are professional of it's like, okay, well, that's, that's you kind of killed the vibe there. But if you're like, Oh, I'm professional disc golfer, and they've heard about it, they're like, Oh, that's cool. You know, it kind of impresses them. So yeah, that's the difference between four or five years ago. And now is there's a little bit more benefit. I think, now that people more people know about it.

Nick VinZant 22:29

residual benefits, man, you can't go wrong with that. Um, that's pretty much all the questions we got is like, what's kind of coming up next for you? I know the tours getting started soon.

Ricky Wysocki 22:38

Yeah, so I'll kind of share a little bit of my schedule. So yeah, I'm heading to Las Vegas. So the lot the Las Vegas challenge is the first tournament of the year. So we have a professional tour of like 20 to 25 events that go anywhere from from Vegas, to Texas to Vermont, to Portland, Oregon, to all the way to Europe, we have events in Norway, we have events in Finland. So as a huge presence and in Finland and disc golf in Finland is probably is, is they did a study on it, or stat and it's the second most popular sport in Finland, behind hockey, so it's hockey, and then Disc Golf. So that's how much it's grown in other countries. And I definitely who knows in the States, but maybe five years down the road disc golf. I definitely see college sports, you know, getting into sponsorships, or scholarships, I should say. So I don't think that's too far away. But yeah, so I'm going to be going on the tour. And you know, every week is a grind, you know, traveling every week going to new city, plan, plan new courses, it's a great, it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of stress, and a lot of driving, as well. So we're doing a lot of that doing a lot of signing disk signings at local shops and different things like that. But yeah, and if you guys, if you're falling wants to get a get a hold of my schedule, you can check me out on Instagram on Sokoban 13 or Twitter, that's soccer mom 13 as well. So that's kind of where I keep up, up to date on my tour what I'm doing and you can get yourself involved in the disc golf world.

Ventriloquist Jack Williams

Ventriloquist Jack Williams is bringing new life to an old art. His standup routines and videos have entertained millions and sparked a growing interest in ventriloquism. We talk how to become a ventriloquist, the hardest words to say and the last time someone thought his puppet was actually alive. Then, we put Barney and Yoda against Elmo and Grover as we countdown the Top 5 Puppets.

Jack Williams: 01:20ish

Pointless: 29:09ish

Top 5: 39:07ish

https://www.tiktok.com/@puppetjack (Jack Williams TikTok)

https://www.instagram.com/puppetjack_/ (Jack Williams Instagram)

Topics we discuss:

• How to become a ventriloquist

• How long does it take to become a ventriloquist

• The hardest words for a ventriloquist to say

• The most expensive ventriloquist dummies

• The most famous ventriloquists

• How to throw your voice

• Jack Williams on TikTok

Interview with Ventriloquist Jack Williams

Nick VinZant 0:10

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, ventriloquism and puppets

Jack Williams 0:19

being a ventriloquist, it's it's kind of like a different life and like a lot of normal lives. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the BS with ds. So you want to say Dask doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him, there might be the possibility that you might not be good either. And that's that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian.

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because if you're like me, you want to know how they do that. This is ventriloquist Jack Williams, I think the first question has to be right, obviously, like, how do you do this?

Jack Williams 1:23

Um, well, I would say being a ventriloquist. It's it's kind of like a different life. And like a lot of normal lives. It takes a lot of dedication, but just the actual ventriloquism aspect of doing it is mostly all about using your tongue, and breath control, and using your diaphragm. So I do a lot of tongue twister exercises. And I usually will, you know, put my tongue on the roof of my mouth when I'm trying to say a word. And that's pretty much all of what ventriloquism is, it's just all it's all about, like just using your tongue and kind of making sure your lips aren't you know, shaky or anything like that, and making it really steady. It's a long explanation, like I've been doing this for, I want to say 13 years now, ever since I was like, 12 years old. So it's been a it's been a long journey, for sure.

Nick VinZant 2:28

How long did it take before you got good at it like good enough, where you could actually do this kind of in public kind of thing.

Jack Williams 2:36

You know, it's interesting. I, I would say that I when you cuz I feel like when you're young, you can kind of pick up things and learn things a lot quicker than when you're older. And so when I started I would say I didn't really, because I started performing. I started at 12. And I started performing when I was 14. And looking back at those tapes of me performing I performed at a ventriloquist convention. So that's kind of like how I got introduced to it, I would go to these conventions, where there was about 500 ventriloquist all in one place. And it's in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And so in my mind, I was like, wow, that's this is like a normal thing. So that's that really was what got me into it. And so I felt comfortable performing around other ventriloquists. And I would even say a 14 I was I was pretty decent performing. But it I think I really started getting good. Once I moved out to LA and started doing like comedy clubs and stuff like that, because that was like the real test of okay. You have to be funny, and you have to do lip control and all that stuff. So I'd say probably like, where I felt like I was like a kind of more rounded performer like in my life, like 22, I would say.

Nick VinZant 3:57

So is it kind of like magicians where there's a secret and you don't necessarily tell people or is it? Pretty much you can look up on the internet like how to become a ventriloquist?

Jack Williams 4:08

Yeah, I would say that most ventriloquists are self taught. I haven't met a single ventriloquist that had a teacher or somebody like teaching them ventriloquism unless it's sometimes pageant you know people in pageants when they want to do a ventriloquist act they'll have a teacher but I'd say most ventriloquist who just want to do it as an art form are all self taught. Like I I started out what got me into ventriloquism was watching goose bumps the the one with the Slappy dummy. And I, my friend was so afraid of the dummy and I wasn't afraid. I just thought like I want one of those. And I asked my dad I was like, Do you have a ventriloquist dummy? And he was just like, yes, but he actually did have one in his garage, so I started practicing with that it was like an old Jerry Mahoney dummy that Paul Winchell used to use ventriloquist from his childhood. And so I just started practicing with that, you know, scaring my brother kind of just walking around the house doing like stupid little acts. And yeah, I would say most of intro liquids kind of start out that way, just kind of experimenting and just talking to themselves as weird as that sounds.

Nick VinZant 5:29

Were you surprised that your dad had a ventriloquist dummy in the house?

Jack Williams 5:33

Looking back at it, I think I should have been surprised. But as a 12 year old, I think I was just really happy that he had one.

Nick VinZant 5:40

Yeah, I could definitely see that as being one of those things where you're like, Oh, awesome. You've got it. And then later in life, like why didn't

Jack Williams 5:46

Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 5:47

It's not your little unexpected way.

Jack Williams 5:50

That's not like, I don't think every parent has a doll like that talks.

Nick VinZant 5:55

So when you do it, right, so are you talking the same way? You're just doing it more? Your tongue is essentially performing the duties of both your mouth and your tongue? Does this make any sense? You're essentially talking without moving? Yeah,

Jack Williams 6:13

exactly. So when I'm talking and doing ventriloquism, it's especially on stage it's kind of like compared to juggling because sometimes I've had instances where I will have will, the the puppets voice will come out of my mouth, and I won't even subconscious I'll be like, oh, like I just, I just did the puppets voice. I wasn't trying to do that. And, but so it's like, it's doing comedy and focusing on moving your lips and controlling a puppet. So when I'm doing it, it's almost now it's like second nature. It's like the two kind of brains basically like the puppet brain and my brain. But I also have to keep like conscious of not moving my mouth as well. It's like a constant conversation. So if I'm like, hey, hey, what's up? Nothing? You good? Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You know, like, it's, it's just like this back and forth, like dialogue as far as like, just how, like, you would talk to somebody, you know, it's confusing. There's a lot of little parts to it that you kind of learn as, as you you know, get into like, I'd say, like your five of being a ventriloquist.

Nick VinZant 7:28

Now, does it? Do you have some kind of your vocal cords are special? You have this uniquely shaped tongue? You're what? Is there something physical.

Jack Williams 7:41

Um, I would say that it's it's straight practice, because I don't think I was born with any like, unique tongue or anything like that. I would say that. I was always like a performer as a kid, like I did acting and other stuff before ventriloquism, but the reason that I pursued it, as I knew that I was good at it, like I knew that I was better at ventriloquism than acting. And I knew that if I didn't, like capitalize on it, and something that I was genuinely truly good at, because you can be a good actor. And, you know, never make it or never kind of make an impact. I figured if I if I'm just good at ventriloquism, this is something that not many people do. And I really, really enjoy the art form that then I might as well go for. I think it's just like being passionate about anything. There's, there's different vocal techniques that you can do to warm up. Like usually I'll breathe in deep so I can have my airflow coming from my diaphragm out through my mouth, because a lot of times what's happens on stage is I'll get to throaty. And sometimes I'll run out of air, if that makes sense. So I'll be on stage and I'll be telling a joke and it'll be and I have to like take a breath and like, you know, so it's really good to it's kind of like being an opera singer. Yeah, yeah, you have to like have all your air come out or else like so I never done longer than a 30 minutes set. And I see even Trilok was do like an hour and a half and I'm like, Man, that's that's really hard to do like a whole hour and a half because you just have to have constant lung control and, and breath control as far as being a performer. I've heard of interreligious not speaking to anybody, the entire day up until their performance because they just want to save all of their vocal energy.

Nick VinZant 9:43

Why is it so much harder just because of the way that you have to speak kind of from the diaphragm or is it just it's because

Jack Williams 9:49

you're, it's because I feel like it's more concentrated. Like I honestly am, like, completely out of breath like, you know, just exhausted After a show.

Nick VinZant 10:01

So one thing I've noticed I've never like, looked at a ventriloquist, right? Their mouth always seems to be just a little bit open, does your mouth have to be just a little bit open? Or is that like, this is just what happens.

Jack Williams 10:13

If I feel like if your mouth completely closed, it'll just, you know, kind of just be like mumbling sounds, but I feel like the true ventriloquist can get their mouth to be slightly open, but it looks still a little natural. You see a lot of ventriloquist, like smiling and they'll be like, Hey, how's it going? It's good to see, you know, and, and it just doesn't look natural. Because they just they just have this big smile on the whole time. So I tried to like mix it up, I'll try to like have a neutral face. And I think something's funny. If the public thinks me funny. I'll kind of like smile while they're talking. And, you know, just just try and try to keep the face as natural as possible.

Nick VinZant 10:53

So give me some leeway on this question. Because I think I'm gonna phrase it terribly and possibly. offensively. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to ask the question, right. So like, is being a ventriloquist? I'll be dramatic and easier path to stardom, so to speak. Then not like, right, like if you're going to be a comedian. It's really hard to be a comedian. But it's maybe a little bit easier if you're a ventriloquist comedian?

Jack Williams 11:19

I would say no, I would say yes, and no, because the reason I think it's harder is because you have to dedicate first to being a ventriloquist, right? So if you're going down the road of being a ventriloquist, and you're not fully dedicated, and there might be the possibility that you might not be good, either. And that's, that's like, the worst thing and being a bad ventriloquist is way worse than being a bad comedian, in my opinion, because it has a way worse, like, Oh, like this guy. Like, it's just even explaining it to people that don't know, like, what I do when I tell them. It's like, I feel like I almost constantly, like just get this Rand like this judgment, I'd say, you know, and that's, that's something that doesn't happen when you're a comedian. When you're like, Oh, I'm, I'm a stand up. Everyone's like, Oh, that's cool. Like what clubs you perform that when I'm like, oh, like I'm a ventriloquist. They're like, oh, like, do you like, talk to your dolls? When no one's around? You don't? I mean, it just comes with its different territory. It comes with a whole set of different questions and judgments. Why do

Nick VinZant 12:39

you think that is that people kind of are like, that reaction you talked about? Like, oh, you're a ventriloquist. Like, why do you? Where do you think that comes from?

Jack Williams 12:48

Um, I think it comes from the whole doll thing. I think that a lot of people don't like dolls. And they, they're afraid of them. And some people just don't like that. Also, I would say, some people think I would say it's kind of more of like a, like a second rate kind of thing of comedy, as far as like, prop comedy. So some people are like, Oh, you're using a prop. It's kind of like a crutch on stage. You're not just, you know, going out there being yourself.

Nick VinZant 13:26

How important is the puppet? Great. Like, do you put a lot of thought into like, Okay, I want it to look like this. It has to be like, this size. Like, is there anything that has to be specific about the puppet?

Jack Williams 13:38

Dude, I would say that, you know, it's, it's a weird a lot of ensure liquids get way too wrapped up in the puppet, and they'll forget that you actually have to be funny, and you'll have to be good at manipulating the puppet and, and, you know, like making it look alive. Because you could take a sock, you could take your hand, you could take an orange and make it look real, if you're if you're just a good ventriloquist. So the puppet itself is important, but I'd say the more important aspect is being funny and just being a good ventriloquist, because there has been ventriloquists. Some of the best ventriloquist has have used very, like not expensive things very like low end things and made them look really real. Like one of my favorite ventriloquist Nina Conti. She's a ventriloquist in the UK, and she uses a little monkey puppet that was like a souvenir at like the Rainforest Cafe. Like, as far as just buying a good character. That's something that's really difficult to do for ventriloquism because it's it ranges like there's some puppets like that are okay that you could get for Like 30 bucks and then there's ventriloquist dummies that are $6,000 that a lot of in Sherlock was had and they're more like collectors. They have a collection of in Sherlock was dummies that are 1000s of dollars that I wish I could have. But they have them because that's that's just what they do. They just collect ventriloquist dummies.

Nick VinZant 15:23

But there's there's not. There's not anything in the dummy or the puppet that helps you, right? It's not like this thing. $6,000 because it's got super modulate and voice deconstruction, right? It's, there's nothing the dummy or the puppet is actually doing, right?

Jack Williams 15:41

No, exactly. The having a very complex ventriloquist dummy won't really help you as a ventriloquist. It can help the performance aspect of it if you want something with more animations. Like there are some really cool ventriloquist dummies that have moving eyes raising eyebrows. There's ones that stick out their tongue. There's ones that can make their upper lip go up. And those are the ones that that the most expensive and Sherlock was dummy that I've heard of, was like, 30 5000s. Yeah, because because of the rarity of it, and because of how many animations it can do like its nose can light up red. It's like hair can go up. There's some crazy ventriloquist dummies. The coolest like, dummy place that I've been to this like sounds funny, like dummy place. But the coolest place I've been to is, is there's a ventriloquist dummy Museum in in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. And it's just like, right, well, let's see little buildings. And I mean, if you had a phobia of like dolls, that this would be like your absolute nightmare. If you went there, and you you walk in, and there's just probably like 50 or 60 dummies just sitting in chairs just kind of like lifeless, and they all have so much history. So if you're a ventriloquist, you can take your puppet there and kind of put it to rest as people would say, because it's it has all the dummies and all their former ventriloquists that used to use them all kind of laid out. So they have like, Jeff Dunham's old puppets, Terry faders. All all the ventriloquist and then there are some genuinely scary dummies. And I don't really get scared of puppets that easily, but there are some dummies that are from I want to say, either the 17 or 1800s that have real human teeth and real human hair. And that that is where I'm like, Okay, that is kind of that is pretty scary.

Nick VinZant 17:59

Yeah, right, I can kind of see why people have a certain like, we'd like, you know, we love to, like anthropomorphize animals. But if it's too much like us, then it's like, ooh, we kind of don't like that. Exactly. And that's

Jack Williams 18:13

where I think that sometimes the ventriloquist dummy is a little bit more beneficial than a puppet in some instances, like I noticed when when I was performing at clubs more when I would use, say, like a bird puppet to tell human jokes, it wouldn't they wouldn't land as well as if I had like the human puppet telling the same jokes, because people are like, they can see that it's a human, if that makes sense. And they're like, oh, yeah, that's more root there. It's more relatable. That's like a guy up there. You know, they kind of forget that it's fake a little bit.

Nick VinZant 18:50

So, I guess two part question, can you make a full time living as a ventriloquist? I'm assuming the answer is yes, because there's pretty famous ventriloquist. But let's say you're a level comedian. Does an A level comedian is he going to get or she going to get paid more than an A level ventriloquist?

Jack Williams 19:09

Um, he like that really depends. I would say it's definitely if you're a good ventriloquist, like an A level of influence that's really good and has good routines. It's definitely easier than an A level comedian just because it's, it's just a more of a unique act, I would say. Like, I remember I was doing a bigger show at the Hollywood Palladium a long time ago, like probably like three or four years ago. And I would just do all these open mics to prepare and you know, some of them were good, and then others were just like dead silence. Or if I would get I be happy if I got like one of the comedians in the audience, because it's basically all comedians watching other comics go up and perform. And so when they see like a guy with a doll on stage, they're like, Wow, this is like this. is different, you know, I've never seen this before ever.

Nick VinZant 20:03

Yeah, that would be brutal audience, right? It's every because you're filled, it's filled with people who don't want to laugh. 100% Yeah, you know, it's kind of like that. He's not better.

Jack Williams 20:12

And yeah, and a lot of the times, I almost felt like, Man, I don't know, what's better practice because if, as far as a stand up goes, it's less of an act and more of being genuine on stage. I sort of tried to be genuine. But what I do is, is an act. It is like acting, if that makes sense. But yeah, yeah, they end up is being real and being kind of like raw on stage, where if people can see those funny sides of you, were I, a lot of the times I was like, Man, I could have just practiced this at home, and I would have felt less sad.

Nick VinZant 20:52

Are you ready for some listener submitted harder questions? Yes. What is the hardest word letter or sound to say? What is the easiest,

Jack Williams 21:01

it's different? For a lot of insurer liquids. A lot of info liquids struggle with the letter B. I feel like I do well, with the letter B, like basketball. Basically, for a word like basketball, you replace the bees with ds. So you would say gasket doll. So you're going back that ball, and then you're thinking the letter B, in your brain. So you're saying the letter D, but thinking B, and you putting it together, and you're like basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, basketball, you know, you kind of just think of the letter that so that's what I'm doing is I'm thinking of the letter for me. I don't really think that B's that hard. But I think the letter P is really hard. For pee, you're replacing it with a tee. Like the hardest word for me is people because it's two Ps. People, he people. And it's I really do not I try to never write that word in my act. A easy word would be words that you just words that you don't have to like, move, move your lips for. So you could say something like, like, son, you don't have to move your lips for son just son, you know. You could say hand hand you know you don't like it's just any word that you don't have to really move your lips for because you have to move your lips for like letters like W, B, P and M.

Nick VinZant 22:42

And then I'm imagining that when you sit down and you write your act, so to speak, like your ventriloquist are purposely ooh, I don't want to say that word like I need to. I can't say people have to say, individuals or something like that, like, well, you specifically kind of right around it.

Jack Williams 22:59

For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I won't realize it because I won't be doing the ventriloquism until after. And I because and then I will realize, oh, I use people too much. I got I got to replace that word, or I use everyone too much got to replace that word.

Nick VinZant 23:19

Who's the Michael Jordan of ventriloquism? Ooh,

Jack Williams 23:23

alive or dead? Like give us both? Okay, um, I would say probably the like, the best of all time would just be Edgar Bergen just because he kind of revolutionized it. As far as a in vaudeville era, he he was mostly known for radio and a lot of people thought that his puppet Charlie McCarthy was a real person on the radio until he started doing shows, and live performances and it would come in and then that was kind of the joke. They, you know, they saw that he had a ventriloquist dummy. And so he kind of revolutionized the INS as far as like doing it in vaudeville, and performing in like the live circuit in in his Yeah, ventriloquism was around before stand up, I would say because he you know, he did that whole vaudeville era type of stuff. So I would say him for sure. Just because he was in movies. He was huge in the 50s. Um, but as far as alive today, I would say for it's it's definitely Jeff Dunham as far as somebody who has just reached that like insane level of fame of events that a ventriloquist has never reached before. Like Jeff Jones more famous than any ventriloquist ever, and I think that he kind of downplays it anytime he does an interview or anything like that, but he definitely no one's ever been been like that mainstream. I think he has like seven comedy specials. And I remember I was watching a show at the Greek theatre. And it's just his performance ability to be able to like get through. Like I said, that long stretch of time without getting vocal. You winded is just insane. Do people

Nick VinZant 25:21

ever try to call you out? Like I saw your mouth move?

Jack Williams 25:27

Um, I would say not really, because I don't really mess up that much. I would say I and that's kind of cocky of me to say, but I've never had a moment where I've really like moved my lips, I would be able to say like, if I if I really, if I did really mess up, I'd be like, Yeah, I definitely, you know, could see my lips moving. But I tried to make it so it's, you know, I You can't I'd say that's the whole that's the whole goal. I yeah, I've never had anyone call me out for something. Like, when I was a kid. Yeah. When I was like, doing those shows, there would be like judges. They'd be like, Oh, you could work on your, your your lip movement. And that just like stuck with me. I was like, this will never happen again.

Nick VinZant 26:17

Do you ever accidentally do it in real life? Like not to mess with people, but it's just purely an accident?

Jack Williams 26:23

Honestly, no, I never for sure. I've never accidentally done it. And every time I'm doing ventriloquism, I It's like a muscle like, you know, you're doing it.

Nick VinZant 26:33

Yeah, that makes sense. Right? What is people like if you do it on the street, right, when somebody is not suspecting it, what's generally people's kind of reaction?

Jack Williams 26:42

Oh, they're like, generally just like, confused, sometimes scared. And, you know, I have the video that really blew up on Tik Tok that I did, I walked up to this guy, and started doing it. And he thought I was like doing witchcraft in front of him. And when I told him, I was just like a video and I was a ventriloquist. Then he understood, so a lot of people don't really understand it. But then other people just kind of think that there's something wrong with me.

Nick VinZant 27:14

Has anybody ever thought that like the dummy was real?

Jack Williams 27:17

No, no one's ever thought the domain was real. I have had, I have had people say like, wow, like, I really forgot that you were with a puppet. Like, I really thought that, you know, that puppet. Like, I thought I forgot that you were controlling it. So they kind of it's that whole illusion kind of thing as far as like the magic aspect of it. And I have had an old woman come up to me after a show. And say, I you know, I loved your act. I couldn't watch you the whole time because I'm have a fear of dolls. So I haven't looked down the whole time. But I heard everything you said. And it was funny.

Nick VinZant 27:55

It's an it's a good compliment. But an interesting compliment, right? Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything else you think we missed? Or what's what's coming up next for you?

Jack Williams 28:06

I'm about to hit a million followers on Tiktok. So that's exciting. Really excited about that. It's been an insane journey. And it's definitely really, really helped my career as far as you know, just accelerating it forward, and all that stuff. And yeah, just just writing a whole new act right now getting back into the swing of performing live shows, again, now that COVID restrictions are lifted in LA, as far as in most comedy clubs, some are still a little bit. You still have to have a vaccine. But you know, that just goes without saying for a comedy club, at least. Yeah, so I'm excited to get back into the swing of things and just start performing again.

Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil

Do you know what’s in the food you’re eating? Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil does and the answers might surprise you. We talk chemistry, nutrition, GMO crops and what you really need for a healthy diet. Then, we countdown a special food inspired Top 5.

Dr. Christopher McNeil: 01:18ish

Pointless: 33:05ish

Top 5: 44:50ish

https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdkEWXF1/ (Dr. McNeil Social Media)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mcneil-7895ba94/ (Dr. Christopher McNeil Linkedin)

Interview with Food Chemist Dr. Christopher McNeil

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we take a look at the chemistry behind your food.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 0:20

So none of the food that we're eating is remotely similar to what it was 10,000 years ago. And when it comes to nutrition work, there's a lot of noise. And there's a lot of interesting studies going on. But at the end of the day, we know what works and it's so it's actually not food that I'm not worried about. It's more you know, the supplement aisle.

Nick VinZant 0:44

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't really know what's in the food that I'm eating. I look at the label, right. But beyond the calorie number, I don't really have any idea what all of that stuff means. Our first guest, though, does. This is food chemist, Dr. Christopher McNeil. You know, the biggest question that I have, in my mind, right talking to a food chemist is I get an apple, is that still an apple or have we done stuff with it and messed with it so much, that it's not really what it was 50 years or 100 years ago, or whatever.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 1:33

So none of the food that we're eating is remotely similar to what it was 10,000 years ago. And that comes with a lot of benefits. And it also does come with some drawbacks. And we're starting to see that with the way that our food system impacts the environment. But I think the one thing I really want to emphasize is the food that we eat is sick. That doesn't mean it's healthy, it doesn't mean that it's always the right thing that we should be eating. But food is always going to be generally safe. The risk of eating the food that we eat is low, as long as we're eating a diversified diet, not relying too much on heavily processed foods. But at the end of the day, humanity wouldn't be where we're at if it wasn't for the advancements in agriculture and technology that makes sure that we have food on the table every day.

Nick VinZant 2:28

What's the difference between healthy versus Safe, safe,

Dr. Christopher McNeil 2:34

has a lot more to do with like the actual risks of disease or toxicity or poison, or all those different types of things that you could think of, in terms of healthy healthy is a lot more about the relationship that we have with food. More about lifestyle choices that are associated with eating and dietary habits. 99.99% of food in the grocery store is not gonna harm you when you eat it. But if you eat an entire diet that consists entirely of hot pockets, that's not a healthy relationship to food, or specifically, like processed foods,

Nick VinZant 3:14

you know, so when you look at food chemistry, are you checking? Are you looking at the chemistry of the food itself? Are you studying more how it reacts with us?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 3:22

Most of my work has been the chemistry of the food itself. There are people who study, you know how food is interacting with either animals or after you eat it or I know people who are actually studying how, you know, pesticides and things on farms are affecting farm workers like there. There's different approaches to food chemistry. And it's kind of a large umbrella. The umbrella of food chemistry is is it associated with food? And is it chemistry?

Nick VinZant 3:56

Is there Okay, so we kind of talked about the idea of like, look, food isn't necessarily good or bad. But are there certain things from like a chemistry perspective that like okay, this is better than this thing? Right? Like these nutrients? This chemical makeup is better for bodies than this one is?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 4:16

That's a that's a hard question to answer just because there are so many chemical components of all the food that we eat. I mean, every everything that gives food flavor or texture, or, I mean, the entire world is just made up of chemicals interacting like that is the human body is just a bunch of it's just a lot of chemical reactions happening all at once that give us life. So due to the complexity of food, it's hard to say you know, these things are better than other things. When you look at the dietary recommendations that come out every five years, you know, the reason why they say try to eat whole grains try to eat a lot of fresh fruits and vegetables is because Those are the things that we know are good. And we can try to dive into the chemistry and have a really reductionist approach to try to narrow down on, like, why it's good for us. But at the end of the day, it's just such a complex system that getting it down to that very, like granule level is almost impossible. Because the chemistry of life itself is so complex,

Nick VinZant 5:28

to help me kind of understand is that kind of, I'm just gonna make something up, right? I have no idea if this is correct or not, right? Like, we know, Apples are good, but we don't know. They're good, because of like the riboflavin, or magnesium and Apple is that kind of how it works. We just know that they're good. So you should eat those.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 5:46

We have a general sense of, you know, the essential vitamins and nutrients. The like, we know, we need a certain amount of certain vitamins, we know we need a certain amount of certain minerals. We know that the fiber from apples is really good. Why it's good. That's a much more complex question to answer. And like research has shown, okay, it's good for the microbiome. So your gut bacteria really likes the fiber because they can ferment it. And you know, they create things that are beneficial for us. But those interactions are all really complex. We know that vitamin C is necessary to prevent scurvy. But we don't necessarily know what a trace amount of some flavonoid, which is going to give it a flavor. Like we don't necessarily know what that trace amount of a single flavonoid is going to do.

Nick VinZant 6:44

So this is kind of like the, you know, the armchair quarterback kind of thing is like, what do you mean, we don't know why, like, why don't we know why I feel I feel as a person who knows nothing about this, that you guys should have figured this out already.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 6:59

So we have 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of chemical reactions going on all at the same time, we've been able to identify like, a lot of very interesting and important and essential chemical reactions that make life happen. But the way that science works, and in order to really, definitively say this is causing this, you have to really reduce down all the variables. And sometimes you just can't reduce every variable out of an experiment. Because that's just not the way that food really exists. Food doesn't exist in this really, like super narrow, focused world. Food is all about complexity and chemical reactions and things like that. Is Does that make sense? It

Nick VinZant 7:55

to me, it kind of sounds like the idea of like, alright, I can't keep using Apples, but we're going to feed these people oranges. And we found that after we fed them oranges, they were happier. But it might also have been because they got good news at work. So we can't like directly attributed to the oranges. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 8:14

Imagine trying to set up a study where you control every single thing that an entire population eats for, like 15 years. So when it comes down to studying the long term effects of things, we just have really crappy models that we can use.

Nick VinZant 8:32

Does it change the way that you look at food, though? Like really knowing what's in it?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 8:37

Yes, and no. Um, I'd say the main thing that has changed is, I appreciate food a lot more. Because a lot of people are very removed from the food that they eat, they don't see how it's produced. They don't know where it's coming from. They don't know. They just don't know how the food system works. So having like a really intimate view on like, this is how food gets to your table, makes it care a lot more about it. But at the same time I talk to any dietician dieticians will always say like, if you're really restricting what you're eating, you're not really having a fulfilling healthy relationship with food. So I still eat junk food. A lot of the time I will say working in my field has made me more vegetarian than I was before. Like I eat meat, maybe once a month now and I really focus on on vegetarian foods that's also just being in the Bay Area, like the Bay Area, you're just inevitably going to become a vegetarian. But when I don't feel like cooking or eating an entire bag of soy chicken nuggets because it's fun. Food should be fun.

Nick VinZant 9:58

It is true, right? Like, how do we find the balance between eating stuff that maybe is not the best? versus kind of just living this super strict lifestyle?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 10:09

I feel like Michael Pollan put it really well in a lot of his writing on food where it's no eat food, mostly plants. And not too much.

Nick VinZant 10:20

That I mean, what is it about like the plants, though? And that more vegetarian diet that seems to kind of go with us a little bit better? Is there something in the chemistry of it?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 10:30

That's a very complicated question. It's never been easier for us to over eat, especially when it comes to meat. Because meat used to be really hard to get. And you only, you know, ate meat on special occasions. When it comes to eating mostly plants, we know that there's a lot of benefits from eating, you know, high fiber, very nutrient dense vegetables. And that is partially just because we're not eating as much fat. We're not especially saturated fat, and we're getting a lot more fiber in our diet, which is going to make us feel full, is going to keep calories down just generally, because we're not going to over eat as much. And it's just going to add more variety to our diet. Because eating, you know, meat and potatoes every day. We know that that's not healthy. So it's all about the variety, in the end, making sure that it's a very diverse diet, and that you're just not eating the same thing constantly.

Nick VinZant 11:42

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. Our food companies trying to kill us.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 11:53

No, they're not trying to kill you at all. Honestly, this is sort of a narrative that people have latched on to, because it takes the responsibility off of having own personal habits that are positive or negative. Food companies are trying to make food that tastes good at a price that people will buy it at. It's the habit of actually buying and preparing and eating healthy food, that is going to determine if your diet is healthy or not. People care a lot more about price than about health. And by keeping prices low, you know, that does mean that a lot of people are eating unhealthy food. But food companies really only care about making food that people will buy and eat.

Nick VinZant 12:53

This person writes, I always hear that processed foods are bad, but what about what about them makes them bad? Like what is it about the processing that isn't good or isn't as desirable?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 13:07

It depends on the food, how it's being processed. Not all processed food is bad. Frozen vegetables are often really great forms of processed food. Because they're really high nutrients, they're high in fiber. Really, the the processes that make processed food unhealthy is when you're removing things like bran from whole grains, because that's where a lot of the fiber and nutrients are. It's the things that end up being lost throughout the process. So it's losing fiber through aggressive processing of grain, or there's vitamin and mineral loss during you know, some types of canning processes or things like that, where, at the end of the day, there's still vitamins and nutrients in there. But it's just not the same as if you had the fresh option.

Nick VinZant 14:06

So it's not what they're putting into it. It's what they're taking out of it.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 14:11

In my opinion, yes, it's more about what's lost along the way than anything that's added to it. Preservatives are not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on how often you're eating them, what products they're in and things like that.

Nick VinZant 14:28

Even if you look at like the worst foods have today. Are they still better than when we ate like, week old raw meat 100 years ago, 100,000 years ago, right? Like is, are we still ultimately eating better than we were a long time ago?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 14:46

I love this question. But it's really hard to answer without defining what you mean by better. Are they more nutrient dense? Are we getting more calories from it, then we would have you know 100,000 years ago, yes. 100%. Like, would would the food of today sustain you longer than, you know, prehistoric, like, foods 100% There's a reason my lifespans are two or three times longer today than they were even 100 or 200 years ago. If you're talking about variety, like, there used to be a lot more varieties of all the different foods that we eat, and that has been reduced a lot over the last 150 years.

Nick VinZant 15:37

I did see something once that like, basically all bananas are the same banana

Dr. Christopher McNeil 15:43

in North America and Europe. Yes. If you go to the tropics, or go to South America, Africa, lots of Asia, they actually have more varieties of banana and the varieties of bananas that we eat in North America and Europe. Totally monoculture? Like, there's pretty much just one kind that you're gonna see. But my favorite type of banana is called an apple banana, you can find it in Hawaii. And all throughout the tropics, it just tastes better it it's a little bit more sour, a little bit more tart.

Nick VinZant 16:18

Yeah, I'm just picturing my grocery store, like they got all the different things and then bananas. Um, how often does like when in your studies, like how often does the nutritional label actually match up to what's inside of the food,

Dr. Christopher McNeil 16:32

it's not far off most of the time. But the way that most nutrition facts are, the way that nutrition labels are generally made today, is actually often using computer software, using validated databases, so the computer software is actually doing the calculations for you. It's not like, every single time Campbell's Soup wants to release a new soup line, they're not performing all the calculations, and like actually putting, like the food in a bomb calorimeter, which is going to measure the number of calories, like that's not what's happening anymore. But those databases are very comprehensive. And the calculations are pretty well established for how they're produced. But there are there is regulation on how close they have to be.

Nick VinZant 17:20

I guess the these are kind of all the same question in the sense that they're all like, along the same lines of is this bad for me? GMOs?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 17:30

No, I wouldn't they GMOs don't pose health risks to humans. And it's, at the end of the day, it comes more down to how they're being used, why they were developed, how they're being used, this is going to open up a huge can of worms. But long story short, GMOs are safe, they are safe. You can talk about disagreeing with the business model, you can talk about disagreeing with Pat having a patent for a seed, you can talk about that. But in terms of actual safety, for human consumption, they are safe.

Nick VinZant 18:12

So when we talk about genetically modified like, what is that? What are they doing to it, I know they're modifying the genes. But that doesn't mean anything to me necessarily

Dr. Christopher McNeil 18:24

modifying the genetic code of the plant itself, you can either add genes from other plants, or, you know, intentionally remove specific genes to like, turn on or turn off different attributes. The thing is, we've been selectively breeding plants for 10s of 1000s of years to get the desired qualities that we want. This is actually a much more targeted and specific way to do it. So it actually gives us more control, as opposed to just like hoping for random things to happen over the course of many, many generations, we can actually just choose what we want to have happen now. And I think that's actually a great approach to dealing with a lot of issues. I will say the applications of genetic modification, you know, you could talk a lot about the ethics or morality of it, but at the end of the day, I the technology itself is not evil. How people choose to use it you may disagree with and you can argue the ethics of that, but the the ability to introduce genes into a crop is not inherently good or bad.

Nick VinZant 19:47

Is it kind of like the idea that we used to do this with crops and the farmer would basically just pick the best crop? And now we just do it with a guy in a lab coat?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 19:56

Yeah, just to add, you know, when I see the knowledge GMO Project labels on things I get really frustrated. Because if you look at the actual list of approved GMOs in the United States, it's not a long list. It is not a long list, and they are slapping that Non GMO Project label on absolutely fucking everything. Sorry for language. But you know, that's they're not being used nearly as much as people think they are, you know, yes, you'll see it, you'll see GMO corn, but most of that corn is not going to human consumption, most of its being fed to cattle, and you'll see a lot of GMO soybeans. Once again, most of that is going to either making vegetable oil or feeding cattle, most of those aren't ending up in the human food supply at all. So I get I get frustrated with the conversation, just because most of the time, it's not ending up in our food supply anyway, or if it is ending up in very small amounts, in terms of like soybean oil that's coming from genetically modified plants, all of the genetic material and all of the protein that would have been like coded for five genetic material, all that's gone at that point, it's just the fat from the soybean. So any actual trace of anything that was genetically modified is entirely gone. So I it comes down to people just generally not understanding what it means or what being genetically modified. So anyway,

Nick VinZant 21:43

speaking of rants, how do you feel about fake sugar? And I'm Nikki never pronounce this word as as parted. You know what I'm talking about right? As? How do you say it and ascertain?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 21:58

Too much sugar is bad for you, we know that we know that. We can replace sugar in our food with other compounds that either have fewer or no calories. It's definitely a Pick Your Battles situation, aspartame. From a chemical breakdown perspective, when it's being digested, it isn't tirely broken down through processes that our bodies designed to handle to get rid of things like our bodies are really complex and are really good at handling things that we eat. Aspartame, when it's used in like a diet soda is used in such a small concentration. And it's actually in terms of aspartame in particular, is actually the most studied food additive, ever. Like there are more studies about aspartame than anything else that's ever been added to food. And time and time again, the United States, Europe, China, every major food agency in the world has said that the way that it's being used is safe. The thing that's probably worse for you is the caffeine from drinking the you know 50 diet sodas that would be required to hit any sort of like dangerous level of aspartame in your diet. We know that having too much like simple sugar in our diet in the form of sucrose or glucose or fructose, we know that those simple carbohydrates are not healthy for us in large quantities, we have options to replace it with other things. And if you're worried about the amount of sugar in your diet, try different artificial sweeteners. When I talked about aspartame on Tik Tok not too long ago, a lot of people said, hey, when I drink it, I get headaches. And you know, that is something that has been reported. There's not any real scientific evidence for why that happens. And when people have tried to explore it, they can't really identify really the mechanism that might be

Nick VinZant 24:06

causing that. Is it difficult for you to go grocery shopping? And I think what this person means is like, Are you always looking at the labels and being like, oh, red dye 40 Hmm.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 24:19

I don't fixate too much on any individual component of what I'm buying. I just don't buy a lot of starbursts, or I do eat too many cheeses. I will say like, the one thing that I shouldn't eat as much as I do is like, I'll go through like two boxes of cheese. It's a week, but that's a personal choice. And I'm, like, totally cool with that.

Nick VinZant 24:42

But there isn't something is there anything that you would look at and be like from a chemistry perspective in the sense that like, oh, that that's kinda Oh, that's a little bit. A little bit nasty.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 24:54

Really the only food that I'm like that with is energy drinks. supplements, there's a lot of supplements that you find in the store, like food actually go through a lot more strict regulatory processes, then supplements do. So it's actually not food that I'm not worried about. It's more, you know, the supplement aisle that, like raises concerns in my eyes

Nick VinZant 25:19

is that because of this, the basic ingredients are because we don't actually know what's in it.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 25:25

The regulatory processes are a lot different. A lot of it is, it's easier to get a supplement approved than a food. So any sort of new food additive has to go through a pretty extensive approval process. A lot of people will point to the fact that the United States has a generally recognized, generally recognized as safe classification, say, Oh, it's so easy to get any new food item prove it, it's a lot more rigorous than people think it is. It's a lot more difficult to get new foods on the market than people think it is. And supplements just don't go through the same regulation process. And it's a lot easier to get something on the market.

Nick VinZant 26:06

I keep feeling like this should have all been more complicated, right? Like there should be some kind of nasty boogeyman in our food. But it really kind of just sounds like from a chemistry perspective, like, just don't eat like an idiot, and you'll probably be fine.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 26:20

100% Don't be an idiot is something that a lot of people still need to learn. Uh, no, it's just

Nick VinZant 26:26

why do you why do you think that then we there's such a big deal about like, You got to eat blueberries? Like, why do you think that there's all this stuff, we're constantly being told, like, you got to eat this, don't eat this, your heart will blow up.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 26:40

As opposed to medication where like, you'll only be exposed to it if you're like prescribed specific medication, we have to eat every day, like we have, like food is something that everyone has to have a relationship on some degree. Because if not, you will starve to death and die. So because it's such an intimate part of our day to day life, because if you think about it, everything that you eat, is going like inside of you and is in theory becoming a part of you. So like eating itself is a pretty intimate act, even if people don't necessarily think of it that way. And we live in a world where people aren't necessarily, you know, dying of preventable disease all the time, always I know, we're in the middle of a pandemic. And this is kind of the exception. But most of the time, like, the things that were killing people 150 years ago, like a lot of diseases, were just we were not really facing those anymore. Now we're dealing with things like chronic disease, and we're trying to find out like, how can we prevent things like heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, and we know that there are beneficial qualities to certain things. But kind of, as I said earlier, with the approach to narrowing down really specifically on, you know, a specific component of food like focusing on you said, riboflavin, we know that that's not a really great model for what people are actually doing on a day to day basis. So you're seeing results from the person studies that haven't really been observed in the real world, you'll see data from you know, some rodent model showed that something gives you cancer. But we haven't seen that same result in all the other studies or an actual day to day life. So there is sort of a sensationalism that goes on in the way that nutrition is being reported. And also, there's a lot of people who are profiting off of selling people supplements or blueberries, or there are financial incentives to to be sensational about your conversations about about food. And that's why every other year, we hear that a glass of wine is good for your heart versus terrible for your heart and back and forth.

Nick VinZant 29:14

That's so true, right? And I get that in the sense that like, we can repeat this thing in a lab with a mouse. And we found that this is bad for you. But then when you go into the real world, we can't really repeat that ever, because there's just too many variables is kind of all that stuff then besides eat healthy and you'll probably be okay. Is it a lie a

Dr. Christopher McNeil 29:36

lot is a strong word. I mean,

Nick VinZant 29:39

a misunderstanding.

Dr. Christopher McNeil 29:42

A misunderstanding I think is a better way to put it, um, where science is always evolving. We're constantly learning new things and we're constantly integrating new ideas into you know, the general body of knowledge. And when it comes to nutrition work, there's a lot of noise And there's a lot of interesting studies going on. But at the end of the day, we know what works. And it's a high fiber diet, like a high like, low, lower sodium, lower saturated fat, high fiber, you know, lots of routes and vegetables, lots of whole grains, like, those are the things that we know work, because those are the things that have been observed. Anybody telling you, you can or can't eat any, like specific thing is generally, either they have misunderstood the science, or they're trying to get you to misunderstand the science.

Nick VinZant 30:38

That kind of answers this other question I? And maybe if it doesn't, and if you feel like we've answered it, then skip it. If we feel like we haven't, then don't? Are we making too big of a deal? Or not a big enough deal of our food?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 30:52

Cut? It depends on what you mean. Um, I would, I would love if people made a bigger deal out of knowing where their food came from. Like I would love people made a much bigger deal of like, knowing who grew that strawberry, to connect more with food and make that a big deal. When it comes to, are we making too big of a deal? Over like the nitty gritty, like, don't eat that because it has Blanc in it. 100% I think we're making way too big of a deal of that.

Nick VinZant 31:29

That's all the questions that I have, is there anything that you think we missed, or kind of like what's coming up next for you?

Dr. Christopher McNeil 31:35

You know, being here in the Bay Area. There's just a lot of really interesting ideas. And people are doing really cool things with food. The center that I work at, at the University that I'm at now actually studies, trends in food innovation and entrepreneurial ventures within the food space. I live in Silicon Valley. I come from a family that Tech has been very good to my family. So now my space is more focused on what are sort of the radical interesting ideas within food and agriculture. That we need to develop new technologies for how can we apply technologies in a new and interesting way to either produce new food or produce food in a better way. So I'm no longer locked away in a chemistry lab. I talked to a lot more business people than I ever had before in my entire life. But it's really interesting seeing what innovative and creative things people are doing within food and agriculture, and how we can incorporate technology better in the entire system.

Intimacy Coach Dee Siren

As an Intimacy Coach and Sex Educator Dee Siren is unique. She specializes in non-traditional relationships; helping polyamorous couples, married swingers and sex workers improve their dating lives. We talk intimacy, commitment, open relationships and finding yourself. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Words We Always Mispell.

Dee Siren: 01:36ish

Pointless: 22:24ish

Top 5: 36:53ish

http://www.thelovesiren.com/ (Dee Siren Website)

www.Twitter.com/MrsSiren  (Dee Siren Twitter)

www.Instagram.com/the.lovesiren (Dee Siren Instagram)

Interview with Intimacy Coach Dee Siren

Nick VinZant 0:11

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, intimacy tips, and the top five words we always EMI, S, S P E, ll misspell,

Dee Siren 0:26

we just consider sexual or physical touch being intimate, when really all these other things mean so much to us. And when it comes to females love language means everything you know you are the until you build a strong foundation of who you are behind the mask you put on every day. Swing is actually a lot more open and a lot less controlled. Because there's a lot of different people that you have to deal with. I and names like I am super bad with names. So people ask me to work with so and so. And I'll be like, I don't think so. And then I'll see it's like, oh, yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. I did work with that. PETA,

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest helps people become more intimate. And she specializes in non traditional relationships. polyamorous couples, Swingers, people with open marriages. This is intimacy coach and sex educator, de Seiren. When people struggle with intimacy, like what are they? Where does that really usually come from? Like, what's the main source of the problem?

Dee Siren 1:44

intimacy in the first place is misunderstood. There are so many different forms of intimacy. There are, you know, there's experiential intimacy, meaning that you've experienced something with someone else you've, you know, gone on a vacation, you've spent time with them, you've you've built a relationship through experiences, you have a life with them. But that, but experiences in general are intimate, and you really just don't realize how many people you actually have intimate relationships with, which, in turn, makes us not as connected to other people, because we just don't realize how many people were actually connected to you. And then there's intellectual intimacy, intellectual intimacy is you and I having this conversation, you're learning something for me, I'm learning something from you. And that's building a connection with each other. With that being the case, you know, you have so many intimate relationships with so many different people. But we just consider sexual or physical touch, being intimate. When really with our life partners, all these other things mean so much to us. And when it comes to females, love language means everything. So you have to figure out with your partner, what's their love language? You know, what do they What does means the most to them? Is it the touch? Or is it that you do the dishes? Is it that you ask them how their day was? You know, is it the words of affirmation that you're telling them they get it did a good job, you know, so it's all about, you know, paying attention to the person that you're with at the time and really showing that you are connected to them?

Nick VinZant 3:31

Let's get controversial. And for the ease of conversation, let's talk about a heterosexual relationship man and a woman who's the problem, usually the man or the woman,

Dee Siren 3:41

I think the problem is, is that you think there's a problem. You know, really, there's not always a problem. You know, in life, we are given struggle and struggle, builds character, struggled builds upon us so that we can actually grow and evolve in our lives rather than holding us back. It actually helps us to learn from each other, it helps us to grow in our relationships, it helps us to maybe even look outside of our relationship for something more. And the fact is, is that I think the big problem in relationships in this is any kind of relationship is that we look for one person to really help us through anything, and we expect that person to be able to do everything for us, you know, are they able to be our best friend? Are they able to be our sexual soulmate? Are they able to take care of our children? Are they able to, you know, help us with dinner at night? Are they the best cook and the best housewife and the best this and is my husband the best? Why would you expect one person to be able to do everything for you? And honestly, it's just about mindset because in the end, you are the only person that sees the world the way you see it. No one else sees it the way you see it and they never will And you know, honestly, when it comes to like jealousy, that's a factor. It's a big factor in people's relationships. So these are these ideas of jealousy. And it comes up because we're insecure,

Nick VinZant 5:12

when when people kind of come to you, or they generally complaining about and complaining is a relative word, right? Is their issue usually, like we're not intimate enough in the bedroom, or we're not intimate enough to kind of adjust in everyday life

Dee Siren 5:25

more than anything, people come to me as individuals. I do have couples that come to me trying to work on their relationships, but it's more coming to me as an individual to figure out what is their what are their issues, because when it comes down to it, it all starts with you, you know, you are the until you build a strong foundation of who you are behind the mask you put on every day, and realize that you know, all the shit that you have piled upon you and made into your ego and your personality, and see that that actually is still stuck. Because people get stuck in old patterns of behavior, old thought processes, and they just repeat themselves, it's just becomes the next person is just gonna have the same crap that you had with your girlfriend in high school, because you're still stuck in that same thought process, you're just putting it onto another person. And until you break the cycle that you're still connected to, it doesn't change.

Nick VinZant 6:32

I've always been fascinated by this idea, right? I heard this before one time where somebody was talking about like, in the past, there was a tiger, a tiger that would you know, kill us. And in reality, now, we're still having that same kind of fearful reaction to things. But there is no tiger. It's just a bad meeting.

Dee Siren 6:51

Exactly. Like we all live. And that's just, you know, it's super survival instinct. We still live with that survival instinct every day. That you know, humans still think we we have to be in a state of fear.

Nick VinZant 7:08

When you know, when it comes to kind of intimacy, are there certain things that people can do to kind of get that back to increase their intimacy?

Dee Siren 7:18

Honestly, the biggest thing to increase your intimacy is communication, like start talking to each other. You know, I think so many people stop talking to each other, and stop having deep conversations, there comes a point where life becomes monotonous, you have a routine, you get into the routine, especially after you have children. But you also have to realize that you are still a person and your spouse is still a person and you should still have a life outside of those children. Like, it's important to, you know, realize that your intimate relationship with your spouse is just as important as that relationship you have with your kids. Because once you guys stop talking to each other and stop, and just forgetting, like, why did you like each other in the first place? And are you still friends? Because a lot of people think, Okay, I'm in this relationship. I've committed to this relationship. I've said, Okay, I'm married, and society puts a lot of pressure on us. I have differences of opinions on relationships than a lot of people do. Most of what I do, I help people that are in non traditional relationships. Because I believe in non traditional relationships, I've been in Iran been in a non traditional ways relationship for the majority of my life. Where I am polyamorous. I do believe in a relationship where you don't have to be monogamous. I don't think it's natural for humans to be monogamous. We're not penguins. And you know, and it's okay to open your life up to other people. I'm super not for limiting love in your life. Like, I think this world needs a lot more love than we are allowed to show to other people. And I think it's super healthy to show love to other people. However, I'm not against monogamous relationships, either, like most people around me, my family, and they all have those relationships. And that's totally fine.

Nick VinZant 9:13

Do you think that problems with intimacy have gotten worse necessarily? Or do we just hear about them more like people are more comfortable talking about it, as opposed to like, No, I think people have actually gotten worse and worse at this.

Dee Siren 9:26

I don't think they're worse, to be honest. Because I talked to people in all different generations. It's just that I think now people are realizing that for one thing, you don't have to stay in a bad relationship. It's not it's not required. Because it's okay to not be in that shitty relationship forever. You know, that's not the end of the world to leave that relationship and try something different. You can also continue to have good, a good relationship with the other person that you aren't, quote, married to or living with or whatever. You can still have a good relationship with that person and not actually live with that person. So I think it's just more being open minded. I think it's more about talking and just being able to express how you feel, I do think that there's a big change that women can express themselves where before they weren't able to, because I think a lot of times, it comes back to that ownership idea that we weren't allowed to be able to express ourselves, we weren't allowed to be able to say, this sucks, you know, I don't want to do this anymore. We had to just stay in the relationship we were in, because that's what we chose to do, or that's what we were told to do are placed in that relationship for so long, we had relationships that were, you know, chosen for us. And it's like, okay, this is who you're married and get over it.

Nick VinZant 10:47

So like, how did you how did you get into this? How did you start intimacy coaching?

Dee Siren 10:51

Well, I mean, I've been in a relationship forever, like, my husband and I started dating when we were 19. And, you know, we've been together, what, 28 years. And, of that time, like, I would say, the majority of it, we have been, well, we I about 10 of that we were in a monogamous relationship, completely vanilla, regular relationship. And then we decided to be in an open relationship and tried, we were Swingers, and we did that kind of thing. And then we went into the adult industry, which made it more, I would say more controlled. Swinging is actually a lot more open and a lot less controlled. Because it's a lot of different people that you have to deal with. And a lot of different relationships, it's hard to be in that type of situation, because you're dealing with so many different personalities and having to get along with so many different kinds of people. And then, being in the adult industry, it's much more of a controlled environment where you work with different types of people, but you're not necessarily building a an emotional relationship or an emotional intimacy with those people. It's more experiential intimacy. It's more physical and sexual intimacy, but you're not really building any kind of emotional intimacy with those people were swinging, you could build emotional intimacy with those people. The more people you're around, the more people that you open yourself up to you start realizing that there are so many different people in the world, and you really just build different connections. And when it comes down to it, it's just all about connection. And we've really put a lot of boundaries on sexuality. And it's just natural, like sexual sex and sexuality are just a basic instinct,

Nick VinZant 13:04

even though there is kind of like the moralistic stand of that right, which comes from religion in which monogamous relationships, sex is only for the purpose of procreation, that kind of thing. It sounds like a polyamorous relationship would be great and great for everybody. But ultimately, would it work?

Dee Siren 13:23

I think the limitation comes with the insecurity. And the insecurity comes with the background of yourself, can you handle being worth more than one person? And that all depends on what happens then who teaches you that being with another person is a bad thing? Are you taught that it's bad to look at other people? Have you been shamed for looking at other people? Have you been taught that? Oh, no. Like, if it's not a man and a woman together forever, then that's not a family. So yeah, that it doesn't always work. But it all just depends on your mindset. Are you capable of handling the situation where you can take care of all these different people in your life? If you're not then you shouldn't do it?

Nick VinZant 14:12

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is awakening your orgasmic body?

Dee Siren 14:21

So I am a super multiple orgasmic person. And I have different levels. The first level is just I'm a squirter. So the first level is just really squatting is very basic. And that happens, I can do it to myself. It can be done even without like, any kind of vaginal like, stimulation. I can do it from like deep kissing. I could do it from biting my neck. I can do it all different ways. And it's really like lubrication. It's like natural lubrication without having like any having to use any kind of other lubrication. So that one's really basic to me. It's still orgasmic. But it's super basic, then I get into a stage that is more like, which does require penetration. It's more like I don't know, animalistic, I guess you would say that's when the noises start happening. And it's definitely more that way. I would take what that saying to be more a third stage for me personally, because that is when I get a if if the person can continue to go because it's, it does get to a point, I could do it with toys, and I can do it with some people. But most people are already finished by the time that I get there. It is definitely more of an out of body experience. I do kind of disassociate at that point. Because it's like an internal massage to me, once I get to like my third level of orgasm. I don't squirt i It's not like that it's much more deep internalized, I kind of go off into my own little world. I look like I'm probably asleep, or dead. It's just much more like I'm super relaxed, absolutely relaxed, you can kind of do whatever, because I'm so relaxed to the point where it's just like, wow, like, I'm just I don't know, I get to the point where it's just super. I don't know, like I said, it's like a deep massage. But internally. So

Nick VinZant 16:32

does everybody have that?

Dee Siren 16:34

I think that if you allowed yourself to get to that you Yes, I think if you allowed yourself to let go to that stage that every but everyone could get to that point. But it does allow it does require you to let go

Nick VinZant 16:50

demand heaven?

Dee Siren 16:52

I don't think so. I don't think so you work

Nick VinZant 16:55

on dating in the adult industry? How is dating in the industry different than dating and normal, normal? You know what word I mean? Right? Like fill in the appropriate word there. But

Dee Siren 17:06

most people need adult and she date each other. Because when you're in the adult industry, you have to understand that sex is part of your job. And that we don't when you have this job, you have to be comfortable with the fact that you're gonna have sex with other people. I mean, it's just part of the job. Like, I don't have a we don't have as an adult industry workers, we don't have an emotional connection to every person that we work with. Like that's like I said, that's the difference between swinging and being in the adult industry. We don't have that connection, we don't build that connection. You know, there's a lot of people that I've worked with that, honestly, a whole bunch that I don't even remember them. Like, I always tell them, I can probably remember your penis much more than your face. Because like, I didn't even see their face. Like, I mean, that's not really where my focus was. I and names like I am super bad with names though. People asked me to work with so and so. And I'll be like, I don't think so. And then I'll see. Like, oh, yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. I did work with that fetus. So like, Yeah, I mean, the girls, I normally remember all the girls. Because like, we build friendships like it's, and that's the thing like i There are guys, I remember because I've actually sat down and talk to them. So that's like different if I actually sit and talk to you, but if you're on set and you're literally just going on set, you're working, doing your work and leaving. You don't really have time to sit and talk. I mean, it's just a matter of like, okay, we're doing our work, we're getting paid, we're doing our job and going home like there's no building a relationship or friendship or anything like that. It's outside of that that we build friendships. So

Nick VinZant 19:03

this is either a ridiculous question or a brilliant follow up question. Who has like the most recognizable penis in the adult industry?

Dee Siren 19:12

Um, well, I probably the ones with the bigger ones, like the biggest, probably Mandingo and like dread chain diesel those guys are ridiculously big. And they don't it's hard to miss when you if you know they are and you've seen them, it's like whoa, that can't be real. It doesn't look real. So

Nick VinZant 19:42

that's you know, we've talked about most of the other questions that we got this so that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dee Siren 19:53

I'm honestly I'm just continue to work. I read a lot. That's all I do have I have like, my bookshelf, if you can see my books, my bookshelf of books and building upon my new life coaching website, it's my Karma Sutra, calm. Karma Sutra is the name of the company. And Kama Sutra is the Love rules. And that is like audio thing like that's old all Sanskrit, from, you know, the Indian culture is that the Kama Sutra is, they've always people connect it to sex like positions. But if you actually read the original Kama Sutra, which is back there in that bookshelf, it it's actually the roles of love. So there's a lot more to it than just positions that just happens to be like depictions of it. And but you know, my website is actually a play on those those words. And it's actually Karma Sutra, which is because sutra just means rules. And karma, of course, is, most people think of karma as like, oh, that's your karma, like, it's gonna come back to get you. But karma actually means action. So it's actually action rolls, because I just believe that all, you know, we talk a lot, everybody just talks and talks and talks. And that's all everybody ever does, these days is just talk about what they're going to do. But it's all about your action, like love does not, you can say you love something, but until you act on it, and show what you're actually going to do. And show that you actually love somebody and do the things that, you know, find out what their love languages are and show them that you actually love them, then it doesn't matter. So until you act on those things until you actually take the steps to improve yourself. And until you, you know, show that it's something you want to change or until you take the steps to actually follow all those roles, then. What's the point?

Curling Olympian Chris Plys

Curler Chris Plys has spent decades preparing for this moment. He’s about to go for gold in the Beijing Olympics. We talk curling strategy, competing for Team USA and the last time he fell on the ice. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Olympic Sports.

Chris Plys: 01:09ish

Pointless: 30: 38ish

Top 5: 44:40ish

https://twitter.com/chrisplys (Chris Plys Twitter)

@TeamShuster (Team Shuster Twitter)

https://twitter.com/usacurl (USA Curling Twitter)

Interview with Curling Olympian Chris Plys

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. And coming up in this episode, curling, and the best of the Olympics,

Chris Plys 0:21

you know, every team that said this Olympics like, I truly think this will be the hardest Olympics ever. A lot of times when we're when we're throwing a rock to the middle, we're aiming like four or five, six feet on a different trajectory. So when you put that turn on the rock, yeah, it's very similar to chess in that way, where you're kind of trying to plan your moves out several shots in advance,

Nick VinZant 0:41

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because I am fascinated, fascinated by curling. And our first guest is one of the best curlers in the world. He's representing the United States in Beijing. This is Olympic curler, Chris plies right now leading up to the Olympics, like what is your training look like?

Chris Plys 1:13

Yeah, it's been a little bit challenging with with COVID. We're lucky enough to have a curling club here in Duluth, Minnesota that allows us to have private access to the club. And we have some icemakers and stuff that give us good conditions. So typically, we spend a lot more time as a team and a lot more time traveling, playing different tournaments, calm like bonspiels and curling, just the rules being what they are with, if you test positive, you're ineligible to play, you know, half the game right now is just trying to stay healthy. So been spending a lot more time on the fat tire bike, and, you know, hiking around with the dogs and all that kind of stuff. So,

Nick VinZant 1:50

I mean, looking at it on TV, right, and you know what that's worth but like, how physically demanding is it at your level?

Chris Plys 1:58

Yeah, curling is like one of those sports where, you know, you watch it on TV, and it doesn't seem like it's that physical, you know, of a sport, a couple things that you have to keep in mind is our tournaments are very long. So like heading into Beijing, I will been fortunate to qualify in two different disciplines. So I'll be like one of the busiest guys in China. And so our, I'll be there pretty much competing for like almost three weeks. And our games for mixed doubles will last about an hour and a half. And our men's games can last two and a half to three hours. But you're talking like being on the ice for anywhere from three to six hours a day. So it takes its toll on it like sweeping is very physical. You know, just like throwing rocks and stuff. That's not something that's gonna like beat your body up and stuff all that bunch, but the sweeping in the recovery time, and then yeah, just the mental side of it of being trying to compete at a high level for such a long period of time is pretty exhausting.

Nick VinZant 2:56

Is it more of a mental thing than it is a physical thing it is

Chris Plys 3:02

I would say it's about 5050 as the week goes on, especially when the stakes are so high like an Olympic Games or a world championship or something like that. That definitely takes its toll. But you know, as the years have gone, as the years have gone by and getting older and putting all this abuse on my knees and shoulders and stuff, the just the repetition over all the years of you know, getting into that like position that we throw the rock in. And then also the sweeping, I mean, it just it BTF mptf over years, and I've played other sports and stuff and I would say that Curling is especially at a high level is just as physically demanding isn't another source of the replay.

Nick VinZant 3:39

You know, you guys won last time last Olympics. Is it easier to kind of common in without those expectations? Or is it more difficult because now everybody's looking at you.

Chris Plys 3:51

I joined this team after the Olympics when one other team when one of those players retired. But I mean, the expectations and stuff are definitely still there. You know, the other three guys were there and yeah, I mean, try not to think about it too much. You know, it's it's an honor to like have those kind of expectations put on us but you know, as long as we can go there and and put a performance down that we're proud of. I think all of us will be happy leaving Beijing

Nick VinZant 4:16

I knew I was gonna say I knew this like I should really know. Nope, no, like no, I can't do it as like, I knew I was gonna say something.

Chris Plys 4:24

Oh, dude, I've been at so many. I've had so many like tournaments and stuff where I've been, you know, introduced as an Olympic gold medalist and sometimes in front of a lot of people and you just sit there and just wave just Yeah, sounds good. Now it's all good.

Nick VinZant 4:41

So then like when you when we're going on to a team that is filled with Olympic gold medalist. What is that like? Joining Metallica after they've already been Metallica Right?

Chris Plys 4:52

Um, you know, it's pretty cool. Like I I've played with all these guys minus John Lane center, who's our lead? I've played with all before Early in my career won a World Junior Championship with Matt. And I went to World University Games with Schuster back in the day and and then yeah, we had just competed against each other. We ran into each other in a lot of finals and stuff over the years. And so yeah, it was just a cool experience, it was like, it's you don't get that opportunity every day to join a, somebody that's coming off of an Olympic gold normally those players will, you know, at least play one more year and kind of carry out it, you know, you get a lot of cool opportunities when you win an Olympic gold. So I was fortunate enough to get to reap some of those benefits. And it's been a lot of fun.

Nick VinZant 5:34

When you go about it, right, like watching it on TV, like Okay, throw the thing try to get next to the center, somebody is in your way, knock the thing out of the way, is like, but he's there, how much strategy goes into it.

Chris Plys 5:47

I mean, strategy is the name of the game for curling. You know, it's, it's hard to see on TV. And it's one thing that I wish they would incorporate a little bit more of like an overhead view when it comes to curling. Because a lot of times when we're when we're throwing a rock to the middle, we're aiming like four or five, six feet on a different trajectory. So when you put that turn on the rock, and it's you know, not to get super complicated, but like hockey, ice is completely flat. And like figure skating ice, that kind of stuffs completely flat curling ice is flat, but it also has, we call it pebble. So there's little bumps, that they spray onto the top of the ice that allows the rock, which has a little texture on the bottom, when you put a turn on it, that texture on the bottom of the rock grabs those little pebbles and will pull it one direction or the other depending on what what turn, you know, counterclockwise or clockwise you put on the rock. So it's hard to tell when you're watching TV that there's that much stuff going on

Nick VinZant 6:43

the columns like reading a green in golf. Exactly,

Chris Plys 6:47

yeah, exactly like that. And so like, the slower you go, the slower the rock is moving forward, the more is kind of a tendency to curl. So just like a putting green, like you're playing a break. So if it's curling six feet, you know, if you want, if you have just like drop it in the hole type weight on your putt, you know, you're gonna have to play a bigger break. And you know, he's talking about guys like putting it through the through the break. Same with curling, you throw it harder, you're gonna take that break out of the equation, and the rock will travel straighter.

Nick VinZant 7:15

Is it pretty reliable? Like throughout the match? Right? Like, I know, I throw it here, I know it's gonna do this? Or does the ice kind of change throughout?

Chris Plys 7:24

Yeah, um, you know, at the high level, the ice makers are just as good as we are as players. So we're really fortunate to get to play on some really great playing surfaces. But as the as the game goes on, and on just those pebbles will kind of wear down and get flatter and flatter, which will cause the ISE to maybe tend to be a little bit slower, or curl a little bit more.

Nick VinZant 7:48

I never thought of while it's called curling. And then when you mentioned that oh, it kind of this all makes sense to me now. Yeah, it curls into the thing. Yeah. So like, how did you? I guess why are you good at it?

Chris Plys 8:03

A lot of practice, man. Just a lot of practice spent? Our I mean, 10s of 1000s hours 10s of 1000s of rocks. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's it's a game of repetition.

Nick VinZant 8:12

But to kind of follow up on that, right? Is there something though, unique about you, where if I went out and put in or anybody went in put in the same amount of time? Am I going to be just as good?

Chris Plys 8:26

I think it's kind of like that in every sport. You know, there definitely is some, like just some people just come to it more naturally. I think of it a little bit like golf. Like there's some guys that can go pick up a golf club and just, they just naturally have that ability to be to start at a little bit higher level or escalate their skill at a high a faster pace, where you see some guys that have been grinding out on the golf course for 25 years, and they're still shooting 90, you know, I mean, I think that's kind of stuff still, it finds its way into curling as well. You know, I've been lucky I seem to kind of have a little bit of that, you know, God given talent, if you will, where it just kind of came easy at a young age and, and came to it. So

Nick VinZant 9:07

it's not everything like you were tested by the doctor and you have the best depth perception. Anybody who has ever lived or anything like that?

Chris Plys 9:16

No, no, it's um, you know, I just was lucky enough to be born in a cold place that had a really nice curling club and and got into it at a young age. And here we are.

Nick VinZant 9:27

So bottom line is being an Olympian takes no talent.

Chris Plys 9:33

Yeah, exactly.

Nick VinZant 9:35

I guess when did you kind of make like, Oh, I could do this

Chris Plys 9:39

camera like 15 Maybe somewhere in that age. I was playing in a state championship and we didn't win. But I was picked up as an alternate by a bunch of guys. So juniors, goes up till you're 21 years old. So it's 21 and younger. So there's a bunch of guys that were like 1920 21 and they brought me along as well. turnout. And I learned a lot that year. And I was really fortunate to have a bunch of guys that had been around the block time or two that took me under their wing and, and kind of taught me what they knew. And so my, you know, a lot of times in curling, it takes a long time to learn all the ins and outs and stuff. And I was very fortunate to have people that, you know, saw something in me and are willing to kind of give me their secrets, if you will, and, and get me ahead of the curve. And yeah, so it, I was very lucky, very, very lucky in that, in that sense,

Nick VinZant 10:30

who's the more important person in each kind of round the person throwing it or the people sweeping it.

Chris Plys 10:35

So Curling is made up like on men's. So it's four guys in a team. So you have a lead a second, a third and a skip. My position is third. But every guy on the team will throw two rocks every end we call it but like end inning, you know, kind of same thing. And your position just is basically saying what order you're throwing it. So our lead throws the first two second throws the second to third, throw the third two, and then the skip is the guy at the other end. That's kind of the strategist of the team. And so he kind of calls the game and does the strategy side of it. And he's the guy that when you're watching on TV, you'll hear yelling and doing all that kind of stuff most of the time.

Nick VinZant 11:15

I always wondered who that was? Yep. Because I always see the three people it's like, well, I know there's four. Where's that fourth guy?

Chris Plys 11:22

Yep, the other guy. And he's kind of like our team captain, if you will. And so our team is led by John Schuster. He's our skip, and this will be his fifth Olympic games coming up in Beijing. So he's kind of the, you know, the Babe Ruth of USA curling, like, you know, I think, you know, I'm sure there's other names in the hat. But in my opinion, the greatest American curler of all time, certainly the most accomplished, and, yeah, so he's the guy that's kind of deciding what strategy what shot selection we should be playing. And then the yelling stems from, you know, him being at the other end, seeing that trajectory that that rock is coming in. And then communicating with the sweepers whether or not they have because sweeping will either will hold the rock straighter when they sweep it and it'll also carry it so like really great curlers are easily carrying a rock 1010 12 feet. So that yelling is coming from the sweepers yelling to the skip, you know where what kind of weight how fast that rock is traveling, so that he can decide, oh, okay, well, it's light, or it's heavy, you know, you know, the rocks moving too fast, it's moving too slow, this is what the trajectory is gonna be on. So sweep to, you know, keep it on this line, or don't sweep to let it curl more. So it's a lot of communications, the name of the game and curling, to be honest,

Nick VinZant 12:40

if I can follow up on that, so I kind of understand it, right. So it's kind of like, put this in terms of my brain understands, right, so the the thrower throws it. And then you guys are basically the sweepers are saying like, Oh, it's going fast. And then he says he thinks like, oh, it's going fast. Well then make it go. Right? Yep, exactly. You're essentially dictating that you're telling him how fast it's going. And then he's telling you what to do with it.

Chris Plys 13:03

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's the gist of it pretty much. So as much communication, I mean, the high end Curling is like there's just our team systems like we spend so much time on just as much time on our on our team systems as we do on practicing. And

Nick VinZant 13:19

for like when we look at the sweeping, right and put this in relative terms of when we're talking about Olympians, like can the person throwing it, just blow it and the sweepers can fix it. And do it for an Olympic level, right, like as good as you get, you kind of blew it for being really good. But the sweepers will fix it. So it doesn't matter.

Chris Plys 13:36

Yeah, I mean, if you're essentially, if you're heavy, like if you throw it too hard, there's really nothing that the SuperS can do, if you're a little bit light, they can fix that. And if you're a little bit like narrow, or you didn't quite get out far enough, like they can tend to fix those, but it's not something like if you just throw a meatball, and you know, there is times where the sweepers and nobody else can do anything for you.

Nick VinZant 14:01

But I would imagine that doesn't happen too much.

Chris Plys 14:03

We try not to let that happen. You know, not to keep talking like bringing golf into it. But we kind of talk about it like taking the sand trap or to play like you know, kind of giving, giving your team something that they can work with.

Nick VinZant 14:16

Like you don't have to be perfect. You just really can't blow it. Just be

Chris Plys 14:19

close, be close, and then let your teammates you know, make it perfect for you for sure.

Nick VinZant 14:24

When when you're thinking about the strategy, right? Are you anticipating what the other team is going to be doing? Like let's say, hey, we need to put one on the right side. But I bet they're going to block us. So let's throw it left, because they're going to throw it here in two throws. So do you have to be like a throw ahead of them?

Chris Plys 14:42

Yeah, it's very similar to chess in that way where you're kind of trying to plan your moves out several shots in advance. And there is kind of a bit of a script that that a lot of like innings will follow or ends will follow. But yeah, you're you're trying to plan your moves ahead of time and you're trying to anticipate what that other team is going to do. So that's where the strategy comes in. So you're trying to, you know, plan ahead and maybe take away a shot, or an idea that that team had they wanted to do for later in the end. So and that, and that's where curling, you know, over the years and years and years in games, like hundreds and 1000s of games that you play, you know, every game, you kind of learn something new. So you might have an idea of something that's worked in the past, and then somebody comes up with an idea to kind of stifle that, that strategy, and you have to kind of, you know, come up with something new to defend against that.

Nick VinZant 15:33

Is there any I mean, obviously, you wouldn't reveal what it is. But is there any time like bleeding into something big, like the Olympics, like we've got this new strategy, and nobody's ever seen it before? Like, we've got this new trick play in football? And wait till you meet US, Canada? Or is it anything, or is everybody kind of seen it all, by this time,

Chris Plys 15:51

I think for the most part, everyone's kind of seen it all, a lot of it is dependent on execution at this level. But there's certainly like our last Olympic trials that we played, there's a team from the US, led by Cory drop kin and, and they kind of had a strategy, you know, built for us for the Olympic trials and executed it very well, and just about beat us, you know, to go to the Olympics, and, and, you know, after that, first, they beat the best of three in the Olympic trial final, and they beat us in the first game, and we had to win the next two. But, I mean, after that first game that we lost, we had some very serious conversations in the locker room about how to defend against that, because this was something that we weren't used to seeing. And yeah, it was interesting, it hadn't happened in a lot. And in quite a while that I can remember where we really struggled with, you know, how to match up with someone strategically for you know, to answer what they were throwing at us.

Nick VinZant 16:43

What was it that they were doing? Like, is it something that a lay person would understand? Or is it um, this is high curling? Man,

Chris Plys 16:49

it I mean, it was essentially, you know, we like to be very offensive. So we like to have lots and lots of rocks in play. And they were just kind of taking that, that strip, like that strategy out of our, you know, out of our control. And yeah, I mean, looking back on it, it was kind of fun to it was, you know, to have that strategic battle in a big moment. And, yeah, made for a really exciting final.

Nick VinZant 17:14

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it. How do you slide like that?

Chris Plys 17:21

Okay, so um, so curling shoes have their two completely separate shoes. So our sliding shoe has, so this one has Teflon on the bottom. And so it's going to have some sort of slippery material, whether it's Teflon, which is the most common, or stainless steel, you'll see used ceramic used to be used back in the day a bit more. But this shoe is the what, what allows us to slide and then our other shoe is just a rubber. It's just super grippy. So when we're done throwing, typically, we'll put a rubber cover over this one so that we can, you know, walk on the ice and not be sliding all over the place. But yep, this is the this is the magic that goes into sliding around on the ice. It's just a quarter inch piece of Teflon.

Nick VinZant 18:05

This is my question, how far can you slide? Like, I'm always wondering, every time I see like, how far are they sliding when they do that?

Chris Plys 18:12

You know, before like warm ups and stuff. You'll see little kids doing it all the time. Because it's like, obviously, like when your little kid that's part of the fun of being out there. It's a sliding as far as he can. So I mean, you can slide to the other end of the ice, which is I mean, I should know how far that is. But it's 100 and some feet. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Nick VinZant 18:29

Are you serious? Yeah. So

Chris Plys 18:31

it's, uh, I mean, typically, during, like, during a curling game, you have to release before a certain point. It's called the hog line. So typically, we're not sliding a whole lot further past that. Like we'll just stop our momentum and get up so we can be like involved in what's happening in the shot. But yeah, I mean, you can slide clear to the other end if you want.

Nick VinZant 18:51

Damn. This leads into another question. When is the last time you fell down on the ice? Oh, man.

Chris Plys 18:57

I mean, I've fallen a couple of times in practice just by like not being aware of my surroundings and tripping over a rock and going down and stuff but I took a good spill at the World Championships this last year, was sliding backwards and ran into the the sideboards and went right on my ass that was, thankfully, there was no fans because we are in a bubble. But if there was no event even more embarrassing,

Nick VinZant 19:18

not that's not on camera anywhere we can't find.

Chris Plys 19:22

It might be on there somewhere.

Nick VinZant 19:23

I sue. I remember that used to be a thing where like, if people at a restaurant dropped the glasses, like everybody would stop, like, does everybody in the arena know? Like all Chris just fell?

Chris Plys 19:34

Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, normally they won't make a big deal of what I'm there. So you'll definitely catch some flack from somebody after once you get into the locker room or something.

Nick VinZant 19:45

We kind of answered this question already. But I think we did. How many if we did it, but this person just writes What's with all the scrubbing.

Chris Plys 19:52

So essentially, you're just trying to put as much weight as much of your body weight as you can over the head of the broom or like the fabric part of the broom and then move as fast as you can. So typically we're sweeping on a normal shot, you're probably sweeping for 25 seconds or so. And then the other team was throw. So the name of the game for curling a lot of times is, you know, because it's you're exerting a lot of effort. And sweeping is man like, like, it's I played other sports and stuff, and you get into a, you know, a tennis match, and you're sweeping a ton, like it is physically exhausting, exerting that effort, and then getting ready to go again. And you're doing that over and over and over again. So like when we're training off ice for sweeping, it's a lot of interval training, because you're just trying to exert as much effort as you can, and then bring your heart rate back down, get ready to go again, and you know, you're doing that, you know, 40 5060 times a game.

Nick VinZant 20:44

I mean, it does look intense. I will say that, like, whoo, they're really sweeping. How good are you with a broom around the

Chris Plys 20:52

house? Oh, man, dude, like, back when I was in high school, I used to get so much crap from my friends. But I was just preparing myself for later in life of you know, being able to be really great at sweeping and cleaning and stuff. But yeah, I get I get my way around the house pretty well with a broom. You know, it's, I can handle that I can hold my own.

Nick VinZant 21:13

Like, look, you want to see somebody sweep up a kitchen, you know, hurler?

Chris Plys 21:16

Yeah, give me a call that you'll you'll be shocked at how clean your places.

Nick VinZant 21:21

Favorite piece of curling lingo?

Chris Plys 21:24

Huh? Um, it's a good question. I mean, there's a lot of times where curling can stand a little bit dirty. You know, talking about like, hitting it in the crotch or, or, you know, that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of times my friends that aren't super familiar with curling will hear hear us say something during the game? Like, what the hell are you guys even talking about? Like, sounds like you turn the if you weren't watching the TV, like you think you're watching something? You know, not safe for work?

Nick VinZant 21:55

Is there trash talk and curling? You know, there is a

Chris Plys 21:58

bid typically depends on how well you know, you know, the other team, like we have some teams around the world that we've played tons of times, and, you know, our good buddies off the ice and stuff. And so typically, the trash talk is happening more. You know, in good fun. They call it a gentleman sport. So there isn't a whole lot of, you know, trash talking opponents. You know, it's definitely happened, you know, there's definitely been times where you might think a guy is doing something that is a little bit cheap or something like that. And you might call him out and it might get a little bit, a little bit feisty. But other than that, it's it's pretty tame.

Nick VinZant 22:36

But you couldn't like the other person's getting ready to throw championship match, like walk up and be like, don't miss it left, Steve.

Chris Plys 22:45

I mean, you you certainly could, but I think you would be you'd be run out of the game pretty quickly. If that became a habit, this is

Nick VinZant 22:55

this is my personal opinion, that Curling is probably the best Olympic sport, or at least one of the most interesting Olympic sports to watch for the Winter Olympics. Like have you noticed an increase in attention?

Chris Plys 23:08

I would say since 2006, the US team won a bronze medal. The Olympics are in Trino that year. And I would say that there's been a higher you know, viewership and stuff. Because I mean, like any any sport in the US are, you know, people like to cheer for, for winners and stuff. So I mean, that definitely brought you know, definitely brought a little bit more eyes to the to the sport. But I think over the years have gone by, you know, curling is every every time is one of the most watched sports, I think part of it is people are drawn into, you know, seeing something that that they don't quite understand and getting involved in the strategy. But one thing I think is really cool about Curling is we're all miked. So you can hear our conversations on the ice during all the games. So you get to know a little bit of like, just like also the personalities of the players that are on the ice. But also get like a really in depth insight as to like what's happening out there. You don't just have you know, a talking head that's out there explaining everything to you the whole time. And, you know, the Olympics is It's cool, man, you get people that are from Arkansas, and you get somebody from Hawaii and you get somebody from West Virginia and they're all they're all They're watching and you know, tweet net Yeah. And it's it's fun, it's a lot of fun.

Nick VinZant 24:26

Can you make a living straight off of it?

Chris Plys 24:28

It's getting there. You know, we have a couple of guys on our team that are pretty much professional curlers, I have a side you know, job myself, but it's definitely getting to that point. I when I was a younger kid, I kind of had dreams that it would be a little would be a little bit further along at this point. But I think I think there's kids that are coming up right now that will for sure be full time, you know, curlers, but yeah, we don't have the million dollar contracts that you're seeing in other sports for sure.

Nick VinZant 24:56

Is there like a country that is like whoo, This is this is the this is curling Mecca, and you know they're gonna be tough every year no matter what.

Chris Plys 25:06

Yeah, I mean, I mean, like Canada has over a million curlers. So I mean, they're they're always on you know a podium contender you know what that that landscape is changing on the on the upper end of curling I'd say that there's you know every team that's had this Olympics I I truly think this will be the hardest Olympics ever. You know, Scotland I believe is the number one team in the world right now. Sweden is always up there Canada obviously the switch the Swiss guys are fantastic you know ourselves Norway I mean like it really go through the list there's there's really good teams coming from all over the world right now which is just phenomenal for the sport you know, not be seeing the same the same faces and the same teams all the time and just goes to show you know, Canada for sure. I mean, the game was originated in Scotland, but Canada's you know, it's if you're not playing hockey, you're probably curling so yeah, I would say Canada's probably like the mecca of of curling in the world.

Nick VinZant 26:09

First question anyone asked to see when they find out you're a curler? Huh?

Chris Plys 26:14

Are you the thrower? The Are you the pusher? The sweeper? Probably?

Nick VinZant 26:19

Yeah, the guy or the other guy? Yeah, exactly.

Chris Plys 26:21

Yeah, like go and we're all of them. How has

Nick VinZant 26:25

how has curling your ability to curl helped you in other aspects of life? Like as a curling like, oh, man, I can I can play beanbag toss like,

Chris Plys 26:38

man, I've won some. I've won plenty of beers and some money at shuffleboard at the bar, that's for sure.

Nick VinZant 26:43

Oh, you got to be able to crush it. Right? Oh,

Chris Plys 26:45

yeah, you get that? You got that touchdown. You know, you got a little strategy in there. So yeah, we've had some had some free beers come that way. But other than that, man, like, it's especially in a in a something that you've given so much to your life to which that necessarily hasn't like financially compensated the amount of time that you put into it. It's taught me a ton about, you know, just commitment to something, finishing a, you know, seeing things through and, and, you know, just kind of doing, doing all the hard work when nobody's watching, which I think it translates well into other parts of life.

Nick VinZant 27:23

What not to kind of push you out the door, but like, what advice would you give to the next generation.

Chris Plys 27:30

You know, my slogan, my grandpa has been one of my, you know, biggest supporters over my career, you know, whether it was starting off playing little kids soccer to, you know, now go into the Olympics, and his motto has always been, you know, the most fun wins. And I always told myself that I would retire when I stopped having fun. And I think one thing that concerns me a little bit about watching these kids come up behind me is there's a lot of emphasis on, on results right away. You know, kids becoming a not just in curling, but becoming like specialized at a, you know, 12 years old. I don't think that's healthy at all. Like, I think you should be able to play as many sports as you can have as much fun with your friends as you can. And only play sports if you're, if you're loving it and having fun because the truth of the matter is very select few of you are going to end up you know, being a professional in that sport. And the best times the best memories that I have from curling, even playing at the top are the time like the fun, the fun things that we've that we've gotten to do. And you know, the memories of just dicking around with your teammates playing pranks on people and just the the Yeah, all the fun stories that have come from other years of travel.

Nick VinZant 28:49

Anything you think we missed or anything else you'd like to add?

Chris Plys 28:53

Oh, no, man, I appreciate you having me on. If anybody has any questions, though, you know, my social media stuff is pretty active. And I got no problem. If anybody has any questions or anything, you know, having a conversation with somebody and explaining them something or there's no dumb question. So fire away.

Nick VinZant 29:11

How much does the curler away actually? Is it thing is it heavy? Like the stuff I've never done it?

Chris Plys 29:17

Yeah, the stone so the stones weighed 42 pounds. And kind of one of the cool things about Curling is, again to go back to golf but the golf course Turnberry, in Scotland. There's an island off of that golf course called Ailsa Craig. And the majority of all the stones come from that one specific island. So they're made out of granite, and it's a special kind of granite that it just doesn't have a whole lot of impurities into it. So you can bang them around as much as you can and and they're not going to break on you, or any sort of any sort of thing like that. So yeah, it's kind of a kind of a cool thing about curling.

Nick VinZant 29:54

I wouldn't say that every time I've seen it on TV. I've always been like those look really nice. But yeah, That thing's made out of that looks really nice.

Chris Plys 30:02

And that show how it's made, actually did a, an F, or like a part of an episode on how they make curling rocks. And it's actually pretty interesting. You know, going and watching that. So if you have like, Go on YouTube or whatever and check out the How It's Made. Curling rock, you'll be able to see exactly how those things are all made.

Nice Guy Reformer Ashley Cox

Ashley Cox is the founder of the “Nice Guy Reform School”. Her goal is to help men find success in the boardroom and the bedroom by teaching them to stop being “nice” and start being themselves. We talk male empowerment, feminism and what women really want. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Food Groups.

Ashley Cox: 01:33ish

Pointless: 31:21ish

Top 5: 46:59ish

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Interview with Ashley Cox of the Nice Guy Reform School

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, nice guys and food groups,

Ashley Cox 0:20

I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned, like they feel like they're drowning, right. That's why it's nice guy reform school, these are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything. And they're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you. Because they see a leader, they see a man that they can follow, they see a man that knows who he is, they see a man who's in his power.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So have you ever wondered if you're being too nice. And that that might be the thing that's holding you back, our first guest says that absolutely can be the case. And that being too nice, can keep you from achieving personal and professional success. She's the founder of the nice guy reformed school. This is Ashley Cox, what's wrong with nice guys,

Ashley Cox 1:34

there's nothing wrong with nice guys, if they're happy. That's true. There are a lot of nice guys that are very, very unhappy because they're being nice, so as to get a different need met. Like they're being nice. So someone likes them, or they're being nice. So they're validated or accepted or respected or so they can get what they want. And they don't realize that they're inherently powerful and lovable just as they are without having to perform or provide value to be loved.

Nick VinZant 2:04

So when you say about like nice guy reformed school, like what are you doing?

Ashley Cox 2:08

So I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, could be a business partner, it could be an intimate partner, their wife, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned. Like they feel like they're drowning in it, right? They they're doing everything they can do. They're not taking any time for themselves. And they're not getting their meet their needs met and return. They're not being appreciated. They're not being valued. In fact, they're usually being usually getting disrespected, undervalued, underappreciated taken advantage of, so I'm helping them understand the difference between being in their power and loving themselves and how to get their needs met that way, versus getting their needs met by putting their power and their energy into something outside of themselves. So as to, you know, hope, hope they get a return back, and usually they don't,

Nick VinZant 2:58

are we talking about people who are just nice bye their personality? Or like that is my fundamental nature or people who have kind of become nice because of society?

Ashley Cox 3:09

Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with being a nice person, right. And when I say nice guy, it's in quotes, because I'm talking about essentially a fawn trauma response. So there's four trauma responses, fight flight, freeze, and fawn. And the fawn trauma response is referring to a people pleasing habit. It's a form of codependency. And I think there's a difference between being kind, and being nice. So sometimes the kindest thing I can do is be honest with you, right? Being nice is essentially being overly concerned with how you view me or how I'm impacting you to the point where I abandoned myself, if I'm doing it to receive validation, attention, love approval, respect from you,

Nick VinZant 3:53

where does this kind of been translate in people's lives.

Ashley Cox 3:57

So it looks like taking better care of other people than you do yourself. So a lot of times, what I'll see is men who say, I've done everything for this person, and I've gotten nothing in return. In fact, she hates me. And she's disrespectful. And so they're very confused around and as to why they're doing all these things for this person and this woman. And like I said, it could be business partner, too. It could be a company. And they are not seeing the ROI that they thought they were going to see. They gain weight, they become depressed, they become bitter. And then sometimes they'll go to therapy and they don't feel they they find that that doesn't help because that therapist will say something like, How was your week and it's just another week of kind of having an existential crisis. And so they don't really have the words for that, right. It's just it goes. It's deep. It's very, very deep in someone's system, when they've been living like this for a long time.

Nick VinZant 4:54

When do you think this kind of started? Are you seeing more of it now? Or

Ashley Cox 4:59

I think it started with this is just a theory. Really, when the feminist movement started, there have been three waves of feminism. And I would say it probably started with the second second wave. And it's just gotten worse with the third wave. I don't think there's anything wrong with the feminist movement. In fact, you know, when I was a kid, I had like a Rosie the Riveter poster in my room, I was, you know, very independent, I grew up in a household of all women. But I think what it's done is one, the patriarchy, I've taught men that they had to protect they had to provide sometimes even give their life. And they weren't allowed to cry about it. They weren't allowed to have feelings about it. So were, we expected them to be robots. And I think that's where a lot of men got their definition of what it meant to be a man as a societal programming of, if you protect, if you provide, if you give your life if you sacrifice if you're a martyr than and, and you don't cry about it, and you suck it up, then that means that that's what makes you a man. And unfortunately, the human body, the human brain, it doesn't work that way. We have emotions, and you either express them or repress them, those are the only two options. So men have essentially become these pressure cookers. And when we add the feminist movement on top of it, women are saying, you know, they're these men have become pressure cookers, and they've, they've traumatized some men have traumatized women because of it. So when they were repressing their emotions, is essentially built up built up, built up, and the man either exploded, and, and traumatized the woman through abuse or something like that, or he completely shut down. And then the woman didn't have a man in her life that was standing up for her. And so what ended up happening was, a lot of men in the world, they either blew up, or they shut down. And the women are saying, oh my gosh, now we're traumatized. Because the fathers are either absent, emotionally unavailable, shut down, you know, a pushover, they didn't protect me, they didn't provide for me, or maybe they provide it for me, but they didn't protect me. Or my father blew up, and you know, he was insane, or an alcoholic, or whatever it you know, whatever it is. And so then men really don't know what to do with this, because they don't a lot of men don't want to hurt women. And so the natural reaction is, okay, well, I don't want to be the, you know, abusive, alcoholic man. And I don't want to I don't want to hurt these women even even more. So I'm just going to kind of play small and play safe. And let's, you know, give the women what they want, and make the woman happy. And they've been through so much. And they think that that's what's going to get them love and respect and validation, and, you know, kind of run off into the sunset because they were the good guy, right? But that's not really what women want or need.

Nick VinZant 7:58

Is this. I mean, I feel like from friends of mine, and just seeing stuff in the media that the men have this kind of confusion about like, well, what am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be the man that my father was was like this tough? Aggressive take charge? Or am I supposed to be this sensitive, empathetic person? Do you? Is there any kind of confusion that you see amongst men about like, well, what am I supposed to be now?

Ashley Cox 8:23

100%. That's why I do what I do. I like to call it the third way, where you kind of we blend the two, right? Where you're not a pushover. You're in control, you're in charge of your life, and you have an open heart, you're emotionally healthy. You can process emotions in real time, you can hold space for her emotions. It doesn't mean you have to hook into them or emote with her. But when a man can't hold his own emotions, which we haven't really taught men or boys how to do. In fact, we've made it wrong for them to have emotions. And so when we increase a man's bandwidth to process and hold space for their own emotions, they can then be more present with a woman. She has her emotional experiences. They can be kind of like a tree like rooted, grounded, present, but a man who can't hold the space for his own emotions will react poorly to a woman who's emoting. And he, and he'll struggle to set boundaries with her. So it's one thing for her to have her emotional experience. It's another thing for her to have poor behavior. And so it want right because she's angry or something, right. So what we want is a woman who feel safe enough with a present powerful man to emote and tell him how she feels and what she wants without blaming him shaming him or abusing him. And so if the man can stay present and grounded, kind of that bad boy confident energy, right? If he can stay there in it with her, and present, but not hooking I'm not react and set healthy boundaries around her behavior. So I'm here I'm present, I'm not afraid, I'm confident, and I care. But what you're not going to do is attack me, blame me, shame me, abuse me. Because you're hurting.

Nick VinZant 10:14

It seems like a fairly simple thing, right, essentially stand up for yourself. But why do men have trouble doing that?

Ashley Cox 10:21

There are a lot of reasons. But I think one of the biggest ones is in the middle of an emotional situation. It's essentially, both people's enter children coming out. And so what ends up happening is the, the woman is kind of when she's emoting. And she's angry, and she's upset, he probably did something that triggered, you know, some sort of abandonment wound that she has, right, something from her father, it could have been something as simple as you know, he left the socks on the floor. And he's completely lost as to why she's so angry. It's never about the Sox. Right? It's about you know, maybe she doesn't feel cared for, maybe she doesn't feel seen, maybe she doesn't feel heard. And that could go all the way back to her childhood. And so her brain starts to make all of these connections. And then before you know it, she's three years old again. And she's acting like a three year old. And same thing for him. When she goes to that space. It's really easy for him to take it personally, because men really want to please women. I don't think women understand how men are literally designed to respond to us. They're, they're designed to respond to our emotions. They're designed to the to want to please us. And so when a woman is upset and angry, a man immediately, it's very easy for a man to immediately take it personally, and make and think, I must not be enough, then I've done all these things for you. Like how can I, I can't figure this out, right? And he starts to personalize it. And then what happens? He goes into, he gets upset. And then he turns into his three year old that wasn't enough or wasn't seen or wasn't heard. And, and so really, it's kind of like he's viewing her at that moment as almost like a mother figure who is trying to get accept acceptance, validation, respect, approval love from and just can't.

Nick VinZant 12:12

So how did you get started in this?

Ashley Cox 12:15

So it's a little bit of a long story. But for nine months, I was dating. And I, I went out on a date with a guy that owned a law firm who was about my age. And later in the, in the evening, we were lying on the couch, and I had my head on his chest, we were fully clothed. We had really just met a couple. I mean, we maybe this was like the second or third date. And he started crying. And I was like, Wait, are you? Are you okay? And then he before I knew it, he was in the fetal position. And I was, I was very confused to

Nick VinZant 12:54

what? Right? Like, look, I'm not the smoothest guy in the world, but I can I'm better than that. At least. But go,

Ashley Cox 13:04

it was crazy. It was crazy. And think about it. I mean, if you if you're the owner of a law firm, that's a lot of pressure, right? And I met something about me something about my energy was very calming for him, and it felt safe for him. And he essentially started to kind of open up. And all of his kind of repressed emotions started coming out. They weren't necessarily bad. It was just like he said, it felt like he was on a mushroom trip, then it happened again. And so I went into this kind of deep meditation for three weeks, I was walking around Houston, I would walk for five or six hours every day, just thinking, meditating, connecting. And what came to me was that the patriarchy has hurt men just as much as it's hurt women. I mean, having so much pressure on you, right is is not easy. We see it in a suicide rate. So the suicide rate is almost four for men is almost four times out of women. They have they have no outlet for their emotional expression. I want men to have spaces where they can go process safely, without feeling guilty about it or without feeling shame around it.

Nick VinZant 14:17

When people come to you what's usually like their main reason for coming back. Is there a specific area where they say I need help with this, or this is the difficulty that I'm having?

Ashley Cox 14:28

Typically, they are looking at divorce. They're separated or they're thinking about being getting separated, their wife isn't happy. Or this is their third or fourth toxic relationship, quote, unquote, toxic relationship, and they have no idea what's wrong and what's going on because they're doing everything by the book. They're checking all the boxes, right? That's why it's nice guy or form school. These are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything by the book and everything correctly. And They're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. And they were told, it would essentially, if you're here, just this kind of person, you know, be be this man and a woman will be lucky to be with you. Right? And they don't they find that that's not the case, they find that they get taken advantage of, like I said, disrespected, sometimes cheated on

Nick VinZant 15:26

just the kind of thing like in the professional environment, right? Like I remember in my former career, I said, Yes, and I would do everything. But then when I started saying, No, I suddenly got farther ahead in my life. It did, can this kind of translate into people's professional careers?

Ashley Cox 15:42

Absolutely. So my whole thing is, when a man, so what I like to do is have men heal from their toxic relationships, and use those same skills that they learn to catapult their business. So typically, my client will come in healing from a toxic relationship and a toxic relationship, very confused. And by the time he leaves, he feels 1,000% better, and he's anywhere between doubled, or, you know, kind of quadrupled his business, just by just by doing nothing other than mindset, work, healing, opening up setting boundaries. It's pretty incredible. There's absolutely a relationship.

Nick VinZant 16:25

This is one of those things where I could see playing devil's advocate, some people listening to this and be like, Oh, she's right on. And some people listen to me, like, What are you talking about?

Ashley Cox 16:34

I get that a lot. People said, Well, what's wrong with being nice? Like, screw you, lady. I get that. And my own partner said the same thing. We had a little a little debate about it. There's nothing wrong with being nice. When I say quote, unquote, nice guy, I'm talking about like, again, the fawn trauma response and talking about codependency. I'm talking about taking better care of other people than you do yourself. And we've made that socially acceptable for men. And so it can be confusing, because it's like, well, I've been told to be nice. I've been told not to be an asshole. I've been told to, you know, open doors for women, there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's about the intention, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because someone told you to do it. And because you think it's going to make you a good guy and make people like you? Or are you doing it because you're already in your power, you can set boundaries if you want to, and you're actively choosing to show up and serve and protect and provide because that's who you want to be. And it doesn't matter to you whether or not someone validates you or proves you, or even thanks you for doing what you're doing. This is just who you are as a person. And I think it's important to look at those intentions.

Nick VinZant 17:46

So I was looking at your website, and I saw some things I'm like, Okay, I don't even know what those words necessarily mean. So I'm just going to ask you, so quantum self mastery.

Ashley Cox 17:56

So that's the name of my company. And nice guy reform school is a program underneath that company. And I've called it that, because I do a lot of meditations with my clients. And we essentially access what I call the zero point field, which is where infinite possibilities exist. And it's where a lot of healing can happen. So in that space, there's no time. There's, there's kind of, it's like a field of nothingness and everything all at once. And I'll take men into these meditations where they meet their higher self, they meet their shadow self, they meet their inner child. And they do something called parts integration, which is, when we experienced trauma, we essentially break off like a piece, a little piece of ourselves kind of get stuck in time, because our brain can't process whatever it is, especially as children. And so we go back to that to the root of that behavior, that feeling, and we process it properly. But we have to go into the subconscious mind to do that. So 95% of your behavior is subconscious. And the subconscious mind there's something called the collective unconscious, the subconscious mind is related to the collective unconscious. It's kind of this field that that connects us all. And so when I go into my subconscious mind, I'm essentially accessing that quantum field, the part of life that we we can't see, but we know it's there. We can feel it. There's you know, lifeforce moving through us. There's infinite possibilities. You can look at nature, you can look at the abundance of the universe and see that there's something really wonderful at work. So we go into that place. And we access those emotions, those memories, those feelings, and we work through the root of those because and that place, time and space doesn't exist. So I go back to the point of injury, the point of creation, the point of, you know, wherever that belief started, that wasn't true. And I work through it there, which then has a direct effect on my present day, emotions. It kind of works forwards and backwards. So they'll come out of those meditations having kind of gone gone into retrieve a part of themselves that they didn't even know broke off when they were three, or five or six, whenever there was something as a child that there was, you know, guilt or shame around that they were rejected for. And they thought, oh my gosh, in order to survive in society, I have to get rid of this part of myself, or they just couldn't process the pain. So we go in, and we collect those pieces. And we get back to their soul group blueprint, which is kind of the part of the version of them that has no fear,

Nick VinZant 20:31

the shadow expert part. So what is a shadow expert,

Ashley Cox 20:36

it's essentially the parts of ourselves that we repress. So for example, if as a child, my parents didn't like it when I played, because maybe my parents were anxious, and they thought that they had to function or perform in a certain way in order to get by in life. And so they thought they were doing me a favor, by raising me up to be serious and work hard and not play and to focus. And so as a child in order to stay in connection with my parents, which is in my best interest. So it's in my best interest to essentially cut myself off from the parts of me that they can't handle or that isn't within their kind of scope, right. So if I get in trouble for playing or laughing, or whatever it is, and I realized I'm going to lose connection, I will essentially repress that part of myself, so as to stay in connection with them. Or let's say it was the first time i i saw my dad's porno magazine, when I was eight or something. And I had guilt and shame around it, I might repress that kind of memory, or that part of myself, in order to function as continue to function in their presence continue to function as an adult, right? Just kind of put it out of my mind. And so it's coming back into the fullest expression and fullest spectrum of yourself, and removing that guilt and shame. so as to allow everything to flow more smoothly in your life.

Nick VinZant 22:11

Can people take this too far? Right? Well, I'm supposed to be me. But what if internal, you is just an asshole. Because I don't feel like that's gonna get you very far, either, right?

Ashley Cox 22:21

My psychopath claws, if you are born without empathy, I'm not talking to you. There's professional help for that. But if you're a normal, you know, if you're a functioning human, and you have empathy, and you are mindful, and you have some asshole like tendencies, typically, anger is associated with anxiety or pain. And that is, again, that's a trauma response. So that's what I'm doing with people as I'm like, I would look at what's pissing that person off and get to the root of the anxiety, get to the root of the pain, go back to the memory, where that essentially was programmed. And I would make it conscious. So they can reprogram themselves, and not have that anxiety and not have that pain. The anger is essentially a secondary emotion. So I'm getting to I want to get to the primary emotion get underneath it.

Nick VinZant 23:10

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes. Can I get myself out of the friendzone? Yes. How?

Ashley Cox 23:26

Yeah. So that starts again, it starts with you actually detaching from needing something from that person and putting your your power outside of yourself, right. So if you're getting something, if you're getting rejection reflected to you, if you're getting kind of a lack of approval, a lack of validation, a lack of attractiveness, like someone being attracted to you, there's something in you again, it goes back to the guilt and shame, you're playing small. There's something in you that's actually rejecting yourself. And that person is an external mirror for where you're rejecting yourself. And you're not fully accepting yourself. You're not being you're, again, you're not being in the fullest expression of yourself. You're not in your power. And so what I love for men to do is be unapologetically honest and unapologetically themselves. And when I say honest, I don't mean like you were saying earlier, I don't mean to intentionally be an asshole to intentionally hurt people. And like, that's not what I mean. But I mean, don't say yes, if you don't mean yes, say yes. When you mean Yes. Say no. When you mean no, have reasons for things, have values, have standards have priorities, and to not lose yourself, because you want someone to like you. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you, because they see a leader. They see a man that they can follow. They see a man that knows who he is they see a man who's in his power, who again isn't outsourcing his self esteem.

Nick VinZant 24:52

I'll paraphrase this massively. But is that why there's always these memes of like white guys complain about women seem to be grabbing Between gravitate towards the man who treats them like crap.

Ashley Cox 25:04

It's essentially the closest we can come to someone who's completely honest with us. Unfortunately, and I know it sounds ironic because those guys lie as well. But it feels safer to know that this is a man who is willing to fight when he needs to fight, who's, who can be scrappy, who can be honest, unfortunately, a lot of those guys again, that's their own trauma response. That's their own way of protecting themselves, essentially. And I would say they're not actually emotionally available. So what we really want is a man who can do all of those things, who can lead who can fight who can protect us, who's like, kind of has that warrior energy, but who has an open heart. And his boundaries are healthy, they're not to keep people out, not just physically, but when he's emotionally available allows us to feel emotionally safe with him as well. And that's a great way to turn a woman on,

Nick VinZant 25:59

I get the idea, like, Why do some women gravitate towards assholes? Well, because they're showing their true personality as opposed to somebody who's pretending to be nice. And like, Well, what do they really like?

Ashley Cox 26:10

I do want to add something to that. So women, when they're ovulating, they're more attracted to your traditional alpha male. And when they're closer to their menstrual cycle, they are more attracted to your traditional like beta or nice guy, which is really fascinating. So it speaks to it speaks to this kind of evolutionary concept or kind of just human nature, we are attracted to men who, when we're ovulating, we're attracted to men who can protect and protect us and provide for us in the event that we have a child. And that is more valuable in our mind than a man who is compassionate because it's a survival skill.

Nick VinZant 26:48

Where are men generally to nice

Ashley Cox 26:51

when they are trying to gain a woman's approval, and attention?

Nick VinZant 26:56

What do women think about this?

Ashley Cox 26:59

At first, if the woman is the partner of someone who's enrolling, they can be skeptical and go, Oh, my gosh, Who is this lady? And what does she want. And by the end there, you know, they want to send me like thank you cards, because their man is showing up powerfully he setting boundaries, she can respect him, she can relax around him, she can express her emotions without triggering him, she can express her emotions without him blowing up or shutting down. He's just in his power more, that's the only way I can put it. He's taking her you know, I've clients that will haven't really poured into their wives in years. And all of a sudden, they take her to trips, you know, they take her to Italy or Sicily, or give her spa days and just under the understand the importance of helping her relax and making her feel cared for and safe and protected and provided for and all at the same time, you know, and be the importance of them being emotionally available at the same time. And for all that love to come from a place of wholeness and goodness. And without any sort of underlying intention of trying to get something from her. It's just because I love you and I want you to feel cared for I want to pour into you. And it helps her feel completely relaxed, completely safe to see her man in her power and actively choosing her for the first time sometimes in years. And that's something else that I did want to add in is the power of decision making the power of being decisive. Leadership is vulnerable. Right and you have to be decisive to be a leader, you may make the wrong choice. And that's okay. You have to be willing to take that fall. And women want to feel chosen. So a man choosing a woman is a form of leadership. And it's hot, it turns her on it makes her feel extremely loved. So for her man to go from fawning people pleasing, not setting boundaries, not being decisive to all of a sudden setting boundaries, being decisive choosing her pursuing her going all in that just lights her up and helps open her up. And so by the end, the women love it. Although in the beginning, I think everyone's a little confused.

Nick VinZant 29:08

Can women benefit from it? Right because it's nice guy reform school but are women too nice to?

Ashley Cox 29:14

They are. It's a saint. It's very similar when it comes to anyone who is codependent anyone who's people pleasing. They become bitter, they become depressed. They don't want to try again. They're shut down. They're frustrated. They're not sure what they're doing wrong. I mean, I used to be that woman. Right. So what I help men with is something that I used to struggle with, especially in my early 20s. For me, it was also a trauma response. I had very strict parents, specifically a very strict mother. And I thought I had to be a certain way and I thought I had to be providing value to receive love. And unfortunately, I abandoned myself in the meantime, and I didn't get the results that I thought I was going to get by being perfect and eventually I had to learn to just be myself and that that was just that was that was enough?

Nick VinZant 30:06

What's kind of coming up next for you? Like, how can people get a hold of you that kind of stuff?

Ashley Cox 30:10

Yeah, so I have a lot going on this year, I'm doing corporate retreats for executives, and working with executive clients one on one in a corporate capacity and I also still have my private practice. So if you want to book a call for my private practice, you can go to quantum Self Mastery calm and there's a book now button you can find nice guy reformed school on all social media platforms. So you can find Instagram is nice guy reform school tick tock is nice guy reform school, Facebook is facebook.com forward slash Nice Guy reform school. And when it comes to the corporate, what you could do is kind of use those same buttons just to get in contact with me, you could email me and let me know that your corporation is looking for someone to help men with their relationship issues so they can get back into their executive functioning in the boardroom and not be distracted by being emotionally flooded.

ASMR Role Play Artist ASMR Shanny

Sometimes it’s a whisper. Sometimes it’s a Cosplay with a personal touch. Content Creator ASMR Shanny is known for creating unique videos that will trigger tingles and help you relax. We talk ASMR, Cosplay, Personal Attention Videos and growing a channel online. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Sounds.

ASMR Shanny: 01:45ish

Pointless: 24:03

Top 5: 37:56ish

http://www.youtube.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny YouTube)

https://www.twitch.tv/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Twitch)

https://www.instagram.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtEjFgulYY&t=351s (ASMR Shanny: Vi Makes You Her Cupcake)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svnik9tIhXg&t=41s (ASMR Shanny: Trinity Runs Diagnostics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjCnHUJA0U&t=836s (ASMR Shanny: Vanessa Captures You)

Interview with ASMR Shanny

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we go inside the world of ASMR and count down the worst sounds.

ASMR Shanny 0:24

And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down, relaxes you helps you sleep, we all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplays. So I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist, like, my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always going to be someone out there who likes it. And there's always going to be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back.

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a content creator, who specializes in ASMR roleplay videos. Looks like there's some waves.

This is ASMR content creator ASMR. Shani, what is ASMR

ASMR Shanny 1:47

ASMR stands for Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response. And as far as we know, right now, like half the world's population gets this tingling sensation. And a lot of people just don't, they don't understand it, but they can still find relaxation from it. And it's basically just sounds or visuals or some in some cases, like my channel role plays like someone pretending to cut your hair. And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down relaxes you helps you sleep. A lot of people who watch it have like insomnia, anxiety, depression, PTSD, or some something else is kind of like, weighing on them mentally. And this can help relax you.

Nick VinZant 2:33

How did you get into it?

ASMR Shanny 2:35

It's really cool. Because a lot of people who have it don't realize they've had it like their whole life. Like my earliest memory I have of like getting this feeling. I was in like, second or third grade. And my friend was just like, putting makeup on me. And I thought it was like a normal thing. Like people just were like, oh, yeah, this is a cool feeling. But then I remember when I found it, I was in my basement at my dad's house. I was like 18 years old. And I was watching YouTube. And there was this channel that I don't even think was meant to be an ASMR channel, but it was called Food surgeon. And it was just like this hands like you didn't see the person it was his hands. And he would set up like a whole like, like surgery, like an operating table. And then he would do like little surgery to food. And he returned like an Oreo into a receipt and stuff like that. And it was just it was giving me that feeling. And then from there, I was getting recommended channels. And these recommended channels were ASMR channels. And that's kind of how I found it and realized, Oh, this is like a thing.

Nick VinZant 3:33

Is it something where like you either get it? Or you don't get it? Or do people get into it later? Like, I've got to watch 20 videos, and then I'm going to really understand what's going on?

ASMR Shanny 3:43

That's a good question. I think it's kind of like, that's what they're researching right now. Because a lot of people um, I think it's something that we've had, like I said, our whole lives, we didn't realize it, and then we find it and you kind of get into it right away because you see it and you get the feeling. I think for some people I know there are even some ASMR artists, people who like make content, who don't get the tingling feeling, but they do find relaxation in it. And so for those kinds of people, it'd be like watching it over time. I know that someone commented on one of my videos today that they don't get the feeling but they like watching ASMR because it's a way to interact with like their favorite fictional characters like my channel. I like do role plays based off like characters and animes or shows and stuff. So they like just kind of having that interaction fake interaction. So,

Nick VinZant 4:28

so okay, I'll be really direct about this. And this this I don't want this to come off as judgment of anybody who likes it or anything like that. But I watched it in for me. I was like, Oh, I can't like it. I couldn't handle it. Do you get that responses? Like I can't I can't watch this. I can't watch this.

ASMR Shanny 4:44

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I'm married and my husband is like the same way like he thinks that's super cringy I mean, like, everyone's got their own thing. Like for me, you just because you like ASMR you're not gonna like every video. Like certain people. There's certain we call them triggers. certain triggers you like and certain triggers you don't like my favorite sounds or water sounds. Um, one thing I can't stand is I hate eating sounds. So if someone is eating in a video can't do it, can't do it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work for somebody else. You just got to find what works for you.

Nick VinZant 5:17

Now, most of the ones that I've seen are on on YouTube, does it something that people have to see at the same time? Or is it just auditory?

ASMR Shanny 5:26

No, it can be auditory or visual. Some people prefer visual some people for auditory, I have a lot of my audios, like my, my video audios on, like what's called Spotify, so people can just listen to it and go to bed. For me, personally, I like role plays, which is like, the only way I can get the feeling is if it's like personal. So it's like, like I said someone cutting my hair or like a doctor examining you. So um, I would need to see the visual, I can't really do just audio, but some people are fine with just sounds, that's the ones you see online or people are like, are like scratching the mic. So it's either or.

Nick VinZant 6:05

That. Yeah, even that it's like Fascinating, right? Yeah. Cuz you don't really listen to things that much like really listened to it?

ASMR Shanny 6:14

Oh, yeah. It's like, you're really just listening to it to zone out when you're doing like the audio stuff. And that's kind of nice when I'm trying to go to bed. And I don't want to focus on like a story or a person. So the audio is kind of nice. And like, like you said, you're not necessarily like really focused on it. It's kind of in the background to relax you.

Nick VinZant 6:30

Me watching it from a complete outsider perspective, right? Is it simply kind of a relaxing thing? Because when I looked at I was like, Okay, this is either something that is relaxing, or is there? Is there a sexual side of it?

ASMR Shanny 6:45

Now, so that is a big question, or like a thing that a lot of us get all the time. So that is, you know, a normal question. But um, no, ASMR is not inherently sexual. Like, it's not meant for, you know, sexual pleasure or anything like that. It's meant to relax people or give people that feeling and make them happy. It's like a euphoric type feeling. It's like anything, anyone anywhere is going to turn something sexual, like, you go to Halloween stores now. And there's like a sexy clown costume or like a sexy ketchup bottle. That's not inherently sexual, but somebody did it. So it's the same thing. There's people out there who are doing NSFW ASMR content. But no, it's not. It's not meant for that. But I mean, you can I guess someone did it. But

Nick VinZant 7:29

right. Yeah, I mean, we've had some adult film stars on this podcast before and one of it like, a guy wanted to watch me eating cheese. Like nobody would think that cheese is a sexual thing. But right how, however you get down, what up,

ASMR Shanny 7:42

and I don't want to diss those people because I have friends who do NSFW ASMR content. So you know, whatever makes anyone happy. But no, yeah, if you ask anyone who does it like on YouTube, it's not meant to be sexual.

Nick VinZant 7:54

There. Is there a lot of people who are into this who are doing it, like how big of an audience are we talking about?

ASMR Shanny 8:02

It's crazy. There's so many more now than what it was when I started. So I found it. Like I said, when I was like 18. And at that point, there wasn't that many people doing it on YouTube. I had like three channels I watched and that was it and shout out to them. It was like GB, ASMR glow, and ASMR magic. And there was a few others like Corona and stuff like that, that I found later. But they're like the real Oh, geez, they've been doing it for years. But when I joined, we call them waves. I was like the third wave of people to start creating on YouTube. And still, there wasn't that many. And now there's so many. There's so many that I find new channels every day

Nick VinZant 8:40

Do do you get pushback? Like do people look at it? who maybe have a different mindset? Like for me, I'm like, Whatever, whatever you want to do, I don't care. Right? Like you're not hurting somebody. Do what makes you happy. But do you get pushback from other people all

ASMR Shanny 8:55

the time, like, I mean, like but just like I like I like I say just like any community out there, there's always pushback about everything. Someone doesn't understand something. And their instinct is to just make fun of or bash people and like you guys are weird. And just let everyone do what they want to do and be happy as long as they're not hurting anybody. Like we're here to help people relax. Like we're helping people with, you know, mental issues such as, like anxiety, we're helping people calm down and sleep. We're not out here to try to make you uncomfortable. So if you don't like it, you know, you don't have to watch it. But you know, there's people out there dissing other communities, you know, people who like anime, so on and so forth. Just let people enjoy. You know,

Nick VinZant 9:30

so like, when you're making one of your videos, are there specific things that like, okay, the ASMR audience wants to hear this. I need to do this.

ASMR Shanny 9:39

Yeah, so um, mine are mainly like roleplay is which is kind of like a situation or like a movie of someone doing something to the viewer. So I have to try to remind myself that it's not always cinematic like I have to include things to make it ASMR such as, like, you know, face touching or like, you know, scratching their head or like anything or like examining them, I have to remember to include those like specific triggers to actually make it an ASMR video

Nick VinZant 10:06

that kind of reminds me of like animal grooming, right? Like,

ASMR Shanny 10:10

there are videos like that where people pretend the viewers like an animal and they groom them, you can find something of everything.

Nick VinZant 10:17

So for like a roleplay video, like what will you do for one of your videos? Like what will you generally do? Do you dress up a certain way? Do you like how does this work?

ASMR Shanny 10:28

So I'm known for my cosplayers. We all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplay, so I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist. Like my most recent video that went up. I don't know if you know anything about anime. I don't always do anime, but it just so happens. My last few videos have been like that. So I did Cowboy Bebop, and I did a character named Faye Valentine. And I spun it like because she's a bounty hunter. So the viewer was getting taken in for the bounty and I was like, playing with like coins and stuff like that and making like, you know, relaxing noises that would involve that scenario, as well as my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct.

Nick VinZant 11:13

And real quick, just to give you an idea of what an ASMR roleplay video sounds like, here's a clip from that matrix video. Hello. Good to see you. Oh, well. This this is the construct. Wait a minute, Cowboy Bebop is all that Netflix show wasn't very good. No.

ASMR Shanny 11:44

Anime. Really? Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 11:48

They screw that up? Like how did they screw that up so badly?

ASMR Shanny 11:52

Oh, you know, I only researched it a tiny bit about the show. But they were saying that they were trying to take like a daring like, twist or take on it and make it like refreshing and new, I guess. But um, I don't know. I personally liked the old Fe Valentine's character. And that's the one I did.

Nick VinZant 12:09

Well, you get like, for example, like now, when we talk about these videos, like are they? How long are they usually? Are you making just some kind of short form stuff? Are you really kind of stretching this? Like I'm putting this on for? You see those YouTube videos, 10 hours of relaxing music and like who the hell is

ASMR Shanny 12:26

I have no idea who watches those. But it would come in handy if you were sleeping. But know that I think the most I've ever done is an hour and that's stretching it like I never do it that long. My Videos typically average like 20 minutes

Nick VinZant 12:37

for yourself. Would you say that? You're I know, this is a hard question to answer, right? Like, are you pretty typical of an ASMR? Content Creator? Or do you feel like wow, I push this a little bit more. I'm a little bit different in this regard.

ASMR Shanny 12:49

I'd say we're all pretty much in this in the same boat. where I differ is I have a lot of I love horror movies and stuff like that. And like science fiction. So I typically border like the horror genre and like sci fi genre, which is a little bit I think different than a lot of people where they kind of do like the typical just like a hair salon or like a normal medical exam. And I always have like a weird little twist on mine.

Nick VinZant 13:16

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

ASMR Shanny 13:20

Oh, yeah, let's go. Oh, that sounds fun.

Nick VinZant 13:23

What is your favorite sound

ASMR Shanny 13:25

water sounds. So like one of my favorite ASMR artists back in the day. ASMR magic, she has this video where she just set up an umbrella with like a microphone underneath it. And she just did like a bunch of drippy water sounds on it fell asleep instantly. I love that video,

Nick VinZant 13:42

is that mainly what a lot of people are doing like they're just putting it on next to them while they're trying to go to sleep or relax

ASMR Shanny 13:49

that or when I used to get anxiety attacks a lot. I would put it on to call me and distract me,

Nick VinZant 13:54

does it? I mean, could you how like, I don't know, this is overly personal, feel free to skip it. But like, like how quickly would it have an effect on you? We have a feeling an attack coming on. And like I have family members that have a personal history about it. So yeah, you know, seeing those experiences, but like,

ASMR Shanny 14:11

I'd say maybe like five to 10 minutes and after they like get immersed in like a role play or something and then it'll distract me enough and calm me down.

Nick VinZant 14:19

I mean, that's pretty good.

ASMR Shanny 14:20

No, it's for especially for me because I can get really bad ones. So

Nick VinZant 14:26

do you. Is there any concern though, that maybe like, because people have this outlet? That maybe someone with an issue isn't getting? Like isn't going to a perfect? A like a professional medical help or a therapist or something like that?

ASMR Shanny 14:43

I do understand. That is a very good question. No, um, we saw a lot of people. I like to think of us as a way to help people get in the door of that because a lot of people think there's like a taboo about therapy, and we don't a lot of ASM artist highly recommend, you know, going to talk to someone it's helpful. So they, a lot of them see us as like a friend or like someone they can go to. And we all have like discords in our own communities and stuff. And I'll have people come in and they feel comfortable enough to open up to me, and I'll talk to them everything but I remind them, I'm not a professional like that. I'm just you know, I'm someone here that cares about them, willing to listen, and then I always recommend people go find someone to talk to. So we always anyone you can ask anyone does ASMR always recommend people going and finding someone that can help them?

Nick VinZant 15:29

What is your least favorite sound? Eating sounds,

ASMR Shanny 15:32

though, I will say even though I don't like eating sounds, I am a foodie. And I will try anything in the whole world. There's not one food I won't try. So I will occasionally go to one of those eating videos just to watch them eat something weird. And I'll just have to like maybe turn down the sound so I don't hear it.

Nick VinZant 15:51

Like an eating. What did they call that a muck?

ASMR Shanny 15:53

Yeah. So you said it. You don't even do it. And you said it way better than I can ever say it. So I'm very impressed.

Nick VinZant 16:01

We had a professional eater who does them. That's the only reason that I know as Katina eats kilos. And she like that's one of her biggest videos. What is something that you have found that is? That is an unexpected sound like that doesn't make the sound you think it does when you really listen to it?

ASMR Shanny 16:18

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Something that makes an unexpected sound. You know this thing. It's sitting next to me. I didn't know it was gonna make this sound. So this is a nice glow. It's like meant for like massaging your face. But I don't know if it'll do it in this mic right now. You can't hear it. It's

Nick VinZant 16:38

a little bit it sounded like kind of watery.

ASMR Shanny 16:41

Yeah, it's like a Blub blub Blub blub and you would think but it's like a really cool thing. Like when I do it with a reverb on stream. It sounds like a like some kind of science fiction Mad Doctor like, you know, like medical blub, blub Blub sound. And it's pretty cool. And I didn't know it was gonna do that when I got it. So we were all for it.

Nick VinZant 16:59

That was actually a pretty cool sound. That was kind of Yeah. Oh, yeah. What is your favorite movie? Affect sound?

ASMR Shanny 17:06

Okay, I don't know about movie effects sound but my first time that I ever really got ASMR well, two, there's two. And they were both animated movies when I was like really little. And so it's scenes because I'm not necessarily a sound person. Like I said, I'm more of like a roleplay visual person. But in Toy Story, when the old man is like repainting Woody? And like Dude, I'm talking about when he's like retouching of Woody's paint and like, he's stitching them and stuff in and backup. That was a big one for me that gave me ASMR and then a Nightmare Before Christmas. When Jack Skellington is like testing all the Christmas stuff and his like lab and he's like crushing the ornaments and like doing like tests on them. Hmm, that was another one. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 17:49

I have not seen Nightmare Before Christmas is too scary for me. I can't watch scary movies. Oh, it's that bad.

ASMR Shanny 17:58

Oh, you would never want to watch movies with me. I'm so sorry. I

Nick VinZant 18:00

can't stand it at all. Like, King Kong. The movie King cause like this is too scary. I'm leaving. Oh, I can only handle it. I cannot handle it. Um, oh my gosh. Have you ever heard the Star Wars like concussion? Grenade? That's the sound that always that's like a bone.

ASMR Shanny 18:20

Oh, okay. Yes. Now I know it. Isn't that weird? You did it. And I was like, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 18:25

that sound is Yeah, yeah. That's cool. This one says do you watch go to video? I don't know what that means. Is it? Just me? Oh, what video I go to video. Yeah. What's what for you? What's your go to video

ASMR Shanny 18:46

I will share. So. It's so funny because I say that my favorite videos are like roleplay videos, but actually, they are like, I prefer roleplay videos. But my two favorite videos are from the same person. And they're not really roleplay videos. They're more of like a trigger video interlaced with it. It's kind of hard to explain. But her name is Rami. See if I say it correctly, because I think she's Korean. So I don't want to butcher the name here. Hold on. Rep. So it's rappeler.

Nick VinZant 19:13

As we put a link, we can put a link to in the description.

ASMR Shanny 19:16

Yeah, I'll give you it's our a PP E L er ASMR. And she has two videos that I love. And she must have spent months making this. It's like a book. And she does like an exam but she like Drew ears and stuff in the book and put microphones in the book. And like, it's so good and so cool and interesting. And then she made her own book of Coraline like the movie, but it's in like a pop up book form so she can like it's really cool. Those are my two favorite videos.

Nick VinZant 19:48

So how long does it take you to make a video you put out like what one a week or so

ASMR Shanny 19:53

I put out two a week and it takes me like three days on each one she that had to have been like should have put a month into each Have those videos like That's insane? Like they are so good?

Nick VinZant 20:03

What is your most frequent look? Most frequent request?

ASMR Shanny 20:09

Um, so I guess there's a bunch of them. There's similar like as I typically border like the horror stuff. And so I don't know if you ever heard of the SPS SCP Foundation? Have you ever heard of that? No. Okay. It's like a wiki. Like it was like a basically like a internet story. That like is like a wiki website. And it's like, fake, but it's like a sci fi website that has all these different monsters. And like, since then it's become video games. And it's like this huge thing. And there's all it's basically like a foundation, kind of like area 51, where they keep all these different, like monsters and creatures and aliens and stuff around the world trapped in this place. And they all have different numbers like SCP 191, or SCP 099. And so I'll do different videos, like the viewer is a different monster each time and I'm a doctor, or a scientist examining them, I get a lot of requests for that.

Nick VinZant 21:07

What is your most interesting request?

ASMR Shanny 21:11

Oh, well, not interesting. The most annoying one that we get all the time is that everyone always wants to see like feet. Because you know, people try to turn things sexual all the time when they shouldn't.

Nick VinZant 21:21

I will give this to the feet people. They are persistent.

ASMR Shanny 21:24

They are persistent. And like I said, everyone has their thing. So I don't want to diss them. But I wish they would stop putting it in the comments on like people's pages who clearly aren't doing feet content.

Nick VinZant 21:34

For somebody who is looking to get into this. As a content creator. I think they mean, what advice would you give them

ASMR Shanny 21:42

just to do it. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always gonna be someone out there who likes it. And there's always gonna be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back. You don't need expensive equipment. I have friends who have 400,000 subscribers get like 200,000 video views a day and all they uses an iPhone. So like, Just do it. Just start right now. Just go do it. Also join Twitter because the ASMR community is so nice. And we will all support you.

Nick VinZant 22:15

So now you have the YouTube channel. What else do you have?

ASMR Shanny 22:18

I have my YouTube channel and then I have my Twitch, which is you know, like live streaming where I play video games or do ASMR and that's also ASMR Shani,

Nick VinZant 22:27

cool. Um, where do you I guess? Where do you think this goes? Like, ASMR? Yeah, I think the next thing is,

ASMR Shanny 22:34

I think it's gonna keep growing, I would love to see it more in like out in the public more in the world more actually being used to help people like, you know, if we can learn more about it in this study that they're doing right now, over in the UK, it would be really cool to see it start being incorporated, like maybe in therapy or like with, you know, psychologists and stuff like that, because it really is a benefit. And you know, I'd like to see it less taboo and more like people actually learning about it and seeing that, you know, it can help people

Nick VinZant 23:01

do you know, is there a typical age range for your audience?

ASMR Shanny 23:04

There is no i Because I It ranges from like, you know, 13 or lower, you know, to I've had it says on YouTube, I've had people like in their 70s

Nick VinZant 23:14

So like, Gee, is there anything else you think that we missed, or what's kind of coming up next for you?

ASMR Shanny 23:20

There's not really much that you missed. I mean, we're, we're all just working really hard I have. We all always work on collabs and stuff like that. I'm trying to you know, just work on Twitch and grow that pretty, you know, pretty much that's all there is to it. I just make two videos a week. You can catch that out on my channel and I stream on Twitch four days a week.

Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Dallas Seavey is one of the best dog mushers in history. He’s won the Iditarod 5x and is getting his dog sled ready for a sixth. We talk dogs, braving 55 degrees below zero, forming a bond with your pet and eating 12,000 calories a day. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Dogs.

Dallas Seavey: 01:15ish

Pointless: 35:06

Top 5: 45:24ish

http://dallasseavey.com (Dallas Seavey Website)

https://www.facebook.com/DallasSeavey (Dallas Seavey Facebook)

https://www.youtube.com/c/dallasseavey1 (Dallas Seavey YouTube)

Interview with Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everyone, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, dogs, real ones, and fake ones.

Dallas Seavey 0:22

The Iditarod is strung out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of like, I don't know if I can actually pull this off or if I can physically do this as, as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. So on a really good trail, good conditions. You know, we're going to be looking at probably 120 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster rail windy. I know, right? That's exactly what I think the best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here. Right.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, please leave a review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So our first guest is one of the best dog mushers in history. This is five time I did Rob champion, Dallas Seavey. So when did you realize that this was something that you wanted to do?

Dallas Seavey 1:18

Um, I grew up mushing sled dogs being around dogs, and they were always a huge part of my life. I would say when I decided that I was going to jump in with both feet and make this my adult lifestyle was after I got done wrestling, I was a wrestler for a long time in Olympic style primarily. And then had my career cut a little short due to too many concussions. And it really I think that's what I've kind of turned my focus. Alright, where's Where's another sport where I can be miserable. And my, my one good trait, which is being really good at being miserable. And keeping a level head through it all and making good decisions. Where does that have value? And then where can I do that in a way that I enjoy it and that's mushing I, I like the challenges it puts on me as a person. But more so I enjoy the connection with the animals, you know, overcoming challenges with your best friends, which are in this case, dogs, you know, getting out there and do something difficult. And it's not always fun in the sense of, Oh, isn't this so much fun sitting on the beach with, you know, a drink in your hand, but it's fulfilling, and it's rewarding.

Nick VinZant 2:22

Okay, so from the complete outside, I know nothing about it perspective, right? Like, alright, you stand there on the back of the sled, you tell the dogs to go.Tell me why it's way harder and more complicated than that,like, what are you really doing?

Dallas Seavey 2:37

Yeah, you know, at some points in time, it is that simple, because we're working with a dog that loves to mush as much as we do, right. And that's really the core of this is the sled dogs. This is their passion. This is what they love to do. Just like if you have a lab, you can throw that ball at me 10,000 times 20,000 times, and they're still going to go running over there and fetch it and bring it back your Border Collie, it doesn't matter if it's sheep, if it's chickens, if it's kids, if it's bicycles, they're gonna try to hurt it and push them all together, because that's what they're programmed to do. And in sled dogs, they're programmed to run to travel to pull. That's what they love doing. So at times, it really is just that simple. At the beautiful times, when you're sitting on the sled, the dogs are cruising down the trail, everything's happy, hunky dory, no problems in the world. The challenge is to try to do it better to try to set the dogs up for more success to understand them to such a level that you see what's going to happen and their physiology three, four or five days from now. And that takes understanding to really master the sport, you have to understand these guys to know the paces that they can run, how much rest do they need after each section of this trail? And what speed should we be traveling in? How is this individual going to react to this different trail condition? Is it going to take more of a toll on their body? Is this an easier trail for them? And then not just as an individual, but as a team? How is it going to affect each of them? So we're monitoring the calories that are going in the attitude amongst the team? How they're acting? Are they having a great day? Are they having a rough day? How am I going to accommodate accommodate their challenges on a day to day basis? How am I going to lift them up when it's you know, just a crappy weather day? And it's maybe not as much fun? How am I going to kind of bring them down later when they're all gung ho and excited and going way too fast? And I know that this isn't a sustainable pace, how do I help monitor them and keep them on that level keel? So it's challenging, primarily because you have to understand, and nowadays it's a 14 dog race, you have to understand all 14 of those dogs individually, so intimately well, and then also as a single unit, how they interconnect. And then finally you add the different species, the human into the equation and you have to understand how you're going to react to eight, nine days of sleeping very little or not sleeping at all, and being in at times down to 54 by 57, below zero temperatures, because our emotions, our feelings, start making effects, oftentimes negative effects on the team when we're sour, and we're miserable, and we think everything's going wrong. And we're only looking at it from our human perspective, you got to kind of get out of your own head out of your own body and look at what the dogs see. And, and always set them up for success. That's really the key to managing any team, right is, is making sure that all your players are having the best day of their life.

Nick VinZant 5:28

It is kind of interesting, right? It's kind of like managing 14 people that you can't talk to,

Dallas Seavey 5:32

you're right in the short term, that is exactly what it is. The dogs, you know, they are very much so a pack animal. And they required I should say, demand, good pack structure. And if we're going to insert ourselves as the leader, we have to provide that pack structure. And we have to be aware of everything that's happening, where humans value comfort, the sled dogs value security, and that security comes from a strong pack.

Nick VinZant 5:59

When you look at the people who weigh you know, you've won the I did rod, I think five times, right? That's the that's the race that everybody at least in North America has kind of heard of. When you look at the people who win those races, though, is it like, okay, look, Dallas has the best dogs. We all know he's got the best dogs, he could sit back there and watch TV all day. And like how much of it is just the physical ability of the dog itself?

Dallas Seavey 6:24

That is definitely a factor. But you know, and I've played with this because I love breaking down Why do teams have success? Why is this team winning? Why is this team not winning? And I think at the end of the day, I would always take the great musher with an OK dog team. I would choose that one every single time over the great dog team with an OK musher. Even the best mushers. I think we're leaving a lot on the table. No, we're still learning, we're still getting better at developing and maximizing the sled dogs. So I don't think that the limiting factor at the moment is the raw genetic potential. I think these dogs are still capable of far more than what we're able to, you know, get out of them. And that's going to come through more and better development, more and better nutrition, medical awareness. I mean, I spend most of my day when I'm not mushing, the rest of my day is spent, basically, as a sports medicine professional. I'm massaging dogs. I'm doing a lot of cold laser therapy with these guys. We're maintaining the foot health, we're always looking at the nutrition. Where are we know, where can we improve on this nutrition on the dogs? No. Is it more omega three fatty acids? Is it something over here in the antioxidant range? Are we we have the AST Xanthine at the right levels, vitamin E, you know, we're trying to understand these guys on the whole spectrum. So I would say the coach makes a bigger difference. But also it goes one layer further because in most sports, a coach or a franchise is going to recruit or draft players, right? We do all of that in house it starts with a puppy being born. And it starts even before that when me as a musher decides which dogs are going to breed. So even the raw genetic potential that you have in your kennel is a trait of your mushers knowledge when it comes to breeding and genetics. Right, so we can't use that. Oh, the dogs aren't good enough as an excuse because we have to take ownership of that and recognize that we decided which dogs to breed.

Nick VinZant 8:18

So the particulars like I've never seen a sled dog before like they're this big. They're this breed like kind of fill me in on the particulars. I guess

Dallas Seavey 8:29

the Alaskan Husky that we're racing is a mixed breed dog. Now the mixing primarily happened in the early 19 hundred's during the Gold Rush era in Alaska, when sled dogs were incredibly valuable, because that was the primary mode of transportation to haul, you know hopeful miners and supplies out to these gold mining towns and gold and a lot of discouraged miners out of the gold mining towns. And so during that time, sled dogs are incredibly valuable and this caused people to bring any dog they had to Alaska, and then cross those with the malamutes and Siberians which were the kind of traditional sled dogs of Siberia and Alaska that had been you know, helping humans survive in the Arctic for over 10,000 years. And then the resulting mixed breed puppy was just generically coined the Alaskan husky, and it's smaller than an Alaskan Malamute, smaller than most Siberians, but there are some pretty small Siberians out there as well. So most of the Alaskan Huskies are between 50 and 75 pounds. So it's not like a specific Oh, this is the right size, and they can look like everything. There's all different colorations in there. The one thing that is common amongst all sled dogs is their innate drive and desire to run and more than run to pull. It's really interesting. I've got about a two acre fenced in you know, play pan out here that the dogs go out into and out there they like to trot around and they'll you know, one of them will pick up a stick and run and the other ones will chase them chase them of course, but um, they like to run in that setting, but they go absolutely reserve when you get out the harness, and now they get to be in a team and get to pull. It is so strange that it's not just running, it's actually the act of pulling that they enjoy. Now, how far can they go in a day? In the I did run setting, which is nearly 1000 Miles race. It's not a matter of how far they can go is how far is it smart to go? And how far can they go sustainably sustainably would be the key word here. So on a really good trail, good conditions, you know, we're going to be looking at probably 120, about 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster trail winning pace. Yep, I know, right. That's exactly what I think every time I kidding. And they're doing this. And that. And this is where you get the discrepancy of the human and the dog because I'm getting very little sleep in a day, because I'm the only person that can aid my team, I'm the only one that can prepare their food that can put the booties on their feet to put the jackets on and when it's time to stop and sleep, give them massages, fix my sled repack the sled. So when we stop, that's when I actually go to work. So I might be getting an hour to two hours of sleep a day. Whereas the dogs are getting somewhere between eight and 12 hours of sleep a day, depending on where we are in the race, if it's early in the race, if it's later how tough the traveling conditions are so far, so on and so forth. So when I'm thinking, oh, man, I gotta wake the dogs up, put the booties on him and start going in my heads in a cloud because I haven't slept hardly at all in six or seven or eight days. And I'm getting them hitched up and all of a sudden, these dogs start barking and lunging and hitting the line, just raring to go. And it blows your mind every single time. And you got to remember they're they're getting a little more sleep, but they're also the ones that are actually running down the trail. And that's a pretty phenomenal athlete.

Nick VinZant 11:40

Right? Right. Yeah. I honestly when I asked that question with no knowledge, honestly tell you guys say like 1020 miles. Yeah, that's incredible. 100 ma.

Dallas Seavey 11:50

Yeah. So here's shit. And there's a few things that allow the sled dogs and you know, it's not like they're running on a treadmill? No, no, it's a lot harder than a treadmill run. But in to do that sort of distance on a day, it would require a fairly good trail where the snowmobiles have gone before the race, kind of pack it down. So there might be some light squishy snow, maybe an inch or two of soft snow on the surface. But there's generally a packed base underneath that not always but generally. But what makes the sled dogs or allows them to be able to do these incredible feats are a few things. First of all, the canine in general has the largest heart proportionate to its body mass of any mammal out there. So they're already starting with a heart that's bigger than any other mammal. And surprisingly, mammals heart size is pretty constant relative to their body size. Of course, everywhere from a mouse to a whale, it's a pretty constant heart size. And I think it starts at point oh, six of the animal's body mass can be built to point O eight. Whereas canine start at point O eight and can build it up to 1% of their body mass, so they have a bigger heart, then pretty much any mammal. The second thing that really allows the canine, aka the Alaskan Husky to be such a phenomenal traveler, is their ability to process calories. First of all, a dog system runs on fats, as opposed to a human that we were on more off of sugar, right? So we're looking at carbs, you look at a marathoners diet, and it's very simple sugars, it's those fast carbs that are going to hit their system. And when a marathoner talks about bonking at the end of a marathon, it's when they run out of blood sugar, and now their body's having to convert stored fat into energy. That's a very inefficient process for a human. A dog system is designed to run on fats. And they're incredibly efficient at either consuming fats and instantly turning it into energy or storing that fat and then switching and using stored fat for energy. Lastly, a 55 pound sled dog can easily burn and then also consume and replace 12,000 calories a day. 12,000 calories a day. So we think of a crazy human athlete, let's say Michael Phelps will hit 12,000 calories in a day. But he's not a 55 pound animal either. Right? So when you look at the calories per kilo of animal, their ability to consume and and then process and then utilize those calories makes them the ultimate endurance animal. That is kind of crazy when you think about it, right? Like if you translated that to a normal, average human 150 pound male, that's like 36,000 calories. Yeah, it's just time all day just to plain eat that. I would Yeah, if you could, you know, that would be a real challenge. You'd have to be some sort of professional eager to hit that many calories to get 36,000 calories, you'd be looking at almost 10 pounds of straight fat, because a pound of fat, I think is 3500 calories. And this brings up another really good point as a musher when I'm coaching new mushers or even a do mushing symposium and things like that. We have to recognize our our place as a human in the pecking order here. These dogs are the supreme athlete. So especially for me I was a I was a wrestler I can been at the top level I came out of that went into my And I viewed myself as very physical musher. Right, I was the guy that could run up all the hills could ski pole constantly. And yes, I can do that. But that is not the best use of my energy. The best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here, right? I can do massages, I can put booties on I can prepare food, I am a caregiver on the trail, I have to recognize the fact that they are the athletes. So me trying to run up the hills, and you know, tiring myself out is not helping the team. The way that I help the team is make sure that they feel 100% Perfect. If I can do that, they can do incredible things they did a rod is about maintaining a healthy team, as you travel a great distance. It's about being a good dog person. And the racing part of it almost happens in a secondary nature. If you do all these base things really well, good results are going to happen.

Nick VinZant 15:52

What was that, like when you the first time that you want it?

Dallas Seavey 15:55

That was that was quite the experience? You know, mostly because I didn't know if I could. And I have to admit that's probably part of why I wanted to get into it. I didn't know if I could win the idea, right? My dad had been racing since I was very young. He my dad raised me I did run from 95 to 2020. So all of my childhood was focused around helping my dad prepare his his teams for the Iditarod, things like that. So my life was focused around it. And you know, my dad's a now a three time I did a rock champion, you know, very focused individual very successful running his his businesses and whatnot. So when I saw him try and seemingly failed to win the I did it year after year, it really put I did run champions up on this pedestal for me where I felt like they were superhuman Demi gods that were able to do it. Because if my dad can't do it, and obviously I looked up to him, you know, then what does it take to do this? And finally, on my dad's 11th attempt, he cracked the code one his first I did right in 2004. And that was like, I think the moment that I realized that the people that when they did are are not superhuman, they're not demigods. They're just very persistent. People that continually know, creatively solve problems, continually address things that they have to do this introspective look and say, What am I doing wrong? And take ownership of that. By the time you know, I started racing with my own kennel in 2009. You know, by that point, my dad had run 15 Something I did rods, maybe more and had one, you know, one of them. So I didn't know if I could. And when I won my first I did run every single dog and my team had been purchased from another kennel. And what that means is every one of my dogs had just recently been fired from their previous job. And so it really was kind of the mix match hodgepodge team. And that was the first time that a team one thing I did, that was entirely purchased. So the feeling was definitely a bit of a bit of a shock and surprise, like holy cow, we actually did it. But definitely the overpowering feeling was a sense of pride. You know, in this team and these dogs what they had become, they weren't the best of the best genetically, right? All these were all the the worst dog in their litter, not the best dog in the litter. They were the last round draft picks. And that's really, it really opened my eyes to how much more we can do about development. The focus is about developing these dogs, not better raw genetic material, but better coaching and development of what you have.

Nick VinZant 18:28

So will you look at it? So there's 14? Are they in Rosa two? Yep. So will you look at and say, okay, Steve is great in the middle of the pack on the left side, but he's no right side dog, like do you really put a lot of thought into exactly where in the harness they go?

Dallas Seavey 18:45

Mm hmm. And that changes on a, you know, on an hourly basis, honestly. So I do have dogs that are right and left sided, there are dogs that were on way better on the right or the left than they do the other side. And that's less common than dogs that will run better forward or back in the team. You know, as you get into the front of the team, it's, it is the most difficult position in the lead position, both physically and mentally, physically, because they're the ones having to drive the pace, there's no visual reference of how hard they need to go. The only input they have is from how hard they're pulling on the line behind them. So they're always having to put an extra 10% on the line to keep that line tight. If the team's going down a hill and then up the next tail it's like a dog team is a long item. So while half the team is still going down this hill at a greater speed, the front half of the team is having to sprint up the next hill at a much faster speed so it is harder for the lead dogs physically. Also, if you've run at all if you draft off of another runner they provide a windbreak right and humans run more racked. Obviously we have more surface area we create more wind resistance. But look at Tour de France cyclist they line up because it is easier to be in that space. slipstream have the cycles ahead of you. And it's the same with a dog team, they kind of have that decreased wind resistance. And then finally, if there's any soft snow on the trail, the dogs in the front are the ones having to put those first tracks in the snow and it gets easier for each pair of dogs behind them. Now when you get to the back of the team, the dogs right in front of the sled, they oftentimes have to be a little bit more agile, particularly on twisty windy trails, as we're going around these turns, those back, dogs will often have to jump over the center line and get over on the same side as their buddy to avoid an obstacle or the soft snow on the trail. And then as soon as we've completed that turn, they have to get back on their own side so that they can allow their partner to do the same thing, you know, jump over the line when we take a sweeping left hand turn. So those back dogs, not only are they having to pull forward, but they're having to be quick on their feet and jumping side to side and a little more activity there. So now that we understand that there are easier positions, generally in the middle of the team and harder positions, generally at the ends of the team. I'm constantly rotating dogs, so that nobody gets stuck in the hardest position for too long of a period of time. And this is also where you're judging attitude, how they're doing. And it's like, Man, this dog, they need to have an easy day to day. So I'm going to put them in the middle of the team, I may not even clip up their harness, you know, just put them on their collar so that they can jog along and not actually feel like they need to be pulling anything or not allowing them to pull because if that harness is hooked up, they will be leaning and pulling. So it's essentially putting them in neutral so that they can have a recovery run versus you know, actually working hard. Other dogs, man, they're, they're on it today. They're all perky and lively. And you know they've got that extra energy. Go ahead and take on that harder position in the lead today. So we're constantly moving dogs around in the team.

Nick VinZant 21:39

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yeah. What is your favorite dog name?

Dallas Seavey 21:47

It's hard to separate the name from the dog because when I mean I'm sure just like human names. There's got to be human names like Man, I hate people that are not people but I hate this name. Because it reminds me of this total Jackass I knew back in college. Right. But I would say both the one that popped into my head I'm just gonna go with that is clutch. Clutch. Awesome dog. He was on my first my early racing team though the winning teams back in the very first one. And he was the biggest heart a dog I've ever seen an insane appetite. He's one that I would have to feed him. Like just one quart of food at a time. I couldn't put all his food in his bowl because he would just smash his head in there and eat it and all the water would squirt out on the side of his face. So and it didn't matter how much you give him. He would feed him until he just be this big old barrel basically like the lab attitude where if you spill the bag of dog food, he'll eat the entire thing. Right? And just a huge hard on him. Yeah. Awesome, fun dog to be around. He wasn't the smartest. He wasn't the best athlete. But he had the biggest heart.

Nick VinZant 22:46

What about the worst?

Dallas Seavey 22:48

I'm not a fan of human names for dogs. I don't know why. It's just, I don't know. So most of my names are not human names.

Nick VinZant 22:58

Do you ever just mush to like the store? Or like, Hey, I'm gonna take a quick trip and just take the dogs.

Dallas Seavey 23:05

Yeah, yeah, no, I love doing trips like that because it breaks the cycle of mushing is just for training or just for the Iditarod No, mushing is what I love to do. Right. I like traveling by dog team. And I like doing it for fun. And sometimes when you really get serious into the race, and you've got to say, Hey, am I still enjoying this? Are we just so focused on the race that I'm taking the fun out of it by making it a job? And so I really make a point to do fun runs, you know, we're just going out to have a good time. It's not about conditioning. It's not about training a new lead dog. It's not about anything. It's just about having a good time. When I think back to my most fun, mushing, it's when I was six and seven and I had one or two dogs tied to the front of a sled that used to slide down like a kid sled just for sliding down the snowbanks know, having one or two dogs on that just just traveling. It's the most pure simple joy if you were just bouncing through the forest, a kitten some dogs having fun. So I checked my mail regularly by dog team in the mailbox is about four miles away.

Nick VinZant 24:04

I forgot that's what Alaska is kind of like, right? Yeah. I kind of like this question. Besides dogs, what other animal do you feel like you could mush? Like, could you do like an elephant? The first

Dallas Seavey 24:17

one that pops into my head is reindeer. I've spent a fair bit of time yeah, in Norway and Scandinavia. I did the longest race in Europe, which is in the way far north of Norway. Twice. Back in 18 and 19. And they I mean, mushing or, I'm sure it's not called mushing, but driving reindeer is actually a thing. Russians do it. I've seen some videos they look a little bit sketchy to say the least. But um you know, they're Russians mushing are driving these reindeer teens and I don't know how well the reindeer are trained but it's it looks pretty rudimentary to me. And obviously appear there's a history with or elsewhere also, but you know, horse drawn carriages and things like that. But I saw There's one really cool picture in one of the local restaurants around here, and it's actually back in the early 1900s. And there is a moose that they had trained to pull a sleigh or carriage of some sort, which really surprised me, but they actually had like this moose pole and stuff. And that would be, that would be a challenge because that is very much a wild animal. And big, very large

Nick VinZant 25:24

for people who maybe haven't encountered moose is like those are, though that you do not fuck with a moose. No, that is way. It's basically like a small school bus. On like, every time I've seen one. Yep,

Dallas Seavey 25:39

they're shockingly large. But I will say there's few things as majestic in the wilderness as a big bowl most. There's one because I've grown up eating most right now. That's the meat I have in my freezer is is most. And the last one I got about the last one, one of the ones I got was about seven and a half feet tall to the shoulders. Just a standard doorway is six foot eight inches. So seven and a half feet tall. That's the shoulder of this thing. Yeah, they're massively large animal and they are our biggest concern, while mushing in, in the wintertime, that's the one animal that can give you problems and actually be aggressive towards the dog team. especially late in the winter, when there's deep snow, the moose, I feel for them, they've got a very rough life. But if the snow is deepest covered up all their food, if it's a really cold weather, or cold winter, they have no fat reserves left and they can be just running out of energy. And it's easy for them to, you know, Miss misinterpret a dog team for a pack of wolves, which is their main predator that time of year. So if they don't feel like they can run away, their next instinct is to turn and charge. So we're always on the watch out for most, and making sure that our team and moose don't have a bad interaction.

Nick VinZant 26:51

Okay, I don't know how to quantify this necessarily. But I've always heard that the I did rod is basically like one of the hardest things in the world, is it? Or is that kind of like, it's a little bit of media propaganda kind of stuff, I would have

Dallas Seavey 27:04

a hard time saying that's the hardest thing in the world. I mean, that's a pretty dang bold statement, look at the things that humans have survived, or done right. And in most of the most extreme things humans have done, they have not done it by choice, or they've done it in a situation where the other choice was death. But yeah, it is physically challenging. In a way that's different than let's say, like an Ironman Triathlon, which is a common thing that humans do electively that would probably be more difficult in an acute way, in a short term, or in the next 12, or 14 or 18 hours, I don't know how long it takes, is going to be absolutely brutal. But the other thing that they do in that time frame is you put your head down, you don't think you just go right. And you know that that and his insight is all done in less than a day, the dinner rod is strong out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of like, I don't know, if I can actually pull this off. Or if I can physically do this as as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. And while the dogs have good hair, and they're designed for this, and they're burning all these calories, which produces a lot of heat, I am not developed to live in 55, below zero temperatures, so your feet are freezing. And there's this uncertainty and probably one of the more similar settings to put it in, in that case, would be more like special forces training, let's take you know hell week for seals, that would probably be a more similar setting where it's like, I don't know if I can complete this. And there's the real fear not that you would necessarily die. Of course, that is an option. But that you might not pass, it's more of a pride thing. You know, I may fail here, you're there's the uncertainty of I have to make decisions. And I don't know, even though I think I made the best decision, I don't know if that'll be enough to accomplish what I have in front of me. And then also there's the tactical decisions that we have to deal with. And you're getting hit with one decision after the next step to the next step to the next. And it starts to play well with you on a kind of an emotional level, especially when you're on low sleep very, very low sleep. And sleep deprivation has to be one of the most, you know, painful things or it is the most painful thing about this. And it is it hits humans very, very hard when you're on day seven and not sleeping. You're not yourself and all your facade and ego even the stuff you didn't think you had a facade or an ego or an image that you project all of that comes away and you were down to just you. And if you're not comfortable with who you are at the very core. It's a terrifying situation for a lot of people. And that's something that's really important with mushing and dogs. You have to be comfortable with who you are at the very base because it will be exposed and that's something that a lot of people don't ever turn and face. Secondly, the dogs see right through those facades, right you can do all the pump up hype for your humans because they understand the words you're saying the dogs don't understand the words they see the intent behind it. That

Nick VinZant 29:50

is true. You can't fool them. What's your favorite piece of musher lingo?

Dallas Seavey 29:55

It's simple. Well, when we're I'd say we're, we always end up like that. I'm gonna go broody, the dogs, because we're putting little shoes on their feet. That's a constant project, right, we put a each dog has four feet, and we got 14 of them in the team. So, though that's something we do before every run taking the booties off after the run, so probably booting dogs Wait, if

Nick VinZant 30:16

you got 10 dogs, it's 40 feet. Man, that's a lot. A lot of work.

Dallas Seavey 30:21

Yep. And, and that's, that's almost always what causes a little bit of frostbite for your for your hands, because again, our hands aren't designed to be, you know, uncovered at those temperatures. So especially if it's windy, even if it's only five or 10, below zero, which is reasonably reasonably warm here. The wind is the worst. So when I have to put those boots on and a stiff wind in any sort of cold temperatures, you feel your hands like dry out start to almost Yeah, basically start to freeze and your skin gets to be like real thin papery almost so any little nick on them will instantly become a cut as they become very brittle. And then you'll actually see on the backs of your hands kind of at this level below this knuckle and also above it. On each finger, you'll get a little football shaped welt where the wind is hitting the back of your hand as you're putting those boots on and create a welt across there. Just from basically frostbite that happens in a matter of seconds. You know it one particular year I'm thinking of 2009 we had a horrific storm on the Bering Sea coast. And it was both very, very cold and super strong winds. It effectively shut down the race for 18 hours until the wind started to lead up. But I was out there caring for the dogs I built like little snow forts around them to create a wind block. And I think the windchill factor in that was like 115, below zero, and exposed skin freezes basically instantly in those temperatures. And that's why we weren't moving or stopped down because it's just not safe to travel or move in those type of conditions. Despite the dogs. No the being evolved to live in these conditions. You know, they went from being wolves in Alaska to being domesticated wolves, aka the Alaskan Malamute to being modern day Alaskan Huskies and they never became a house dog they never left last, the traits and qualities that allowed them to be successful article Arctic survivors as wolves. So they are very well developed for these conditions. As humans. We didn't develop in these conditions. And so we're the ones who have to adapt and get better clothing and gear. And you know, wash your hands freeze the dogs, they're incredibly tough, and incredibly well adapted for this refer to this lifestyle. This is what they've been doing for 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years.

Nick VinZant 32:30

That's pretty much all the questions I had man. Is there anything you think we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dallas Seavey 32:36

Yeah, I would say the only thing that's left out there is you know, mushing is definitely not your mainstream sport. It's not on you know, ESPN every every Sunday. And you know, so this one if you do want to follow mushing and watch dog races, doing it online is definitely the best way and, and now that that's become more common, it's, it's, I guess, a little easier and more accessible for people. But you know, go to I did rod.com. That's the official, I did her on webpage, you know, and the I did, Ron is the World Championships. It is the biggest dog sled race out there, you're gonna see the best of the best teams show up at that race. It starts the first Saturday in March, and then leading up to the race all winter long. You know, social media is a great way to follow mushers in the process and learn more about it, you know, start to understand the individual dogs and what goes into developing them. And there's a lot of information like us, particularly that we try to put out, that helps people become a better steward to their dog or their pet. At the bottom of all of this, it's about the human animal connection, which I think is an awesome and sacred thing that you humans would not have developed in so many places around the world without the aid of animals. And that even just 100, definitely 200 years ago, your connection with animals was much closer, we depended on them, we relied on them. And that builds that really close tight bond. Nowadays, our relationship with pets is a convenience. It's a luxury item, we like to have a pet. But we don't have that super close bond as you would if you relied on that pet. So take for example, somebody who has a nice fluffy dog, it's a great dog, they come home from work, they patted on the head, say Good Dog, take it for a walk. There's a friendship, there's a relationship, but there's not a connection like there would be for somebody with their seeing eye dog. They rely on each other, that's going to be a much closer bond. So I guess what I would just say is, you know, check out the social media, Dallas CV on Facebook, and we'll get all the other platforms as well. The information is on the Facebook to go on YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and those ones. We have great fluffy Husky pictures, Puppy pictures, all that good stuff, but also information about you know, trying to develop that closer relationship with your pet to enhance that experience of the human animal connection, enhance the quality of life, your dog and your enjoyment of that pet as a human.

Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Most adult films are made for mainstream audiences. Producer Sinn Sage is not mainstream, her goal is to bring new visibility to sexual preferences that were once taboo. We talk lesbian love scenes, transgender pornography and creating custom clips for every corner of the fetish world. Then, we put fries and potatoes chips against hash browns and tater tots as we count down the Top 5 Potato Foods.

Sinn Sage: 01:43ish

Pointless: 34:36ish

Top 5: 55:41ish

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Interview with Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, queer erotica, and Po, Tito's,

Sinn Sage 0:24

that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera. A big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to, I want to improve that like visibility. And I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the Internet, what makes it a good one, dedication and care to detail,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think one of the most powerful things out there is seeing somebody who looks like you who represents the group that you are in, depicted in a media that you enjoy. Because not only does that bring extra visibility and awareness, but I think it also shows you that there are other people like you, and then it's okay to be who you are. Our first guest does exactly that with adult films. This is queer erotica, producer, sin, sage. So you've starred in films for about 20 years. But when did you get into producing,

Sinn Sage 1:48

so I worked in pretty much mainstream lesbian porn. At that same time, I was getting a lot of emails and people were requesting custom videos from me. So I was like, you know, I think I should start learning how to do this and see about making my own content and making these custom videos because that's money being presented to me that I'm just walking away from. So I started very simply, and I even went on my Amazon wishlist and I asked for like a little baby video camera, a basic editing program and a single light and kind of went from there. Now it's a full on production company. And we still produce high quality custom videos, very specific to what people ask for.

Nick VinZant 2:39

So when you're producing a film, right, like what goes into that? Exactly, because in my mind, right, when we're talking about these kinds of films is like you get to people and camera and you go right, but obviously, it's more complicated than that. So what kind of goes into it?

Sinn Sage 2:55

Yeah, so that's, that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera or something like that. But I think it's very clear from a lot of productions, that that's not what's going on, because everything looks great. Professional, mainstream sets are very much like any other movie set. It's just that instead of, I don't know, like, being John Wick, you know, you're here, two people having sex, or eight people or 10, you know, whatever.

Nick VinZant 3:33

When you like when you contract performers. How does that like? Are you looking for somebody specific? Do they contact you? Like, how does that process kind of fill out? Do you like, do they audition? No.

Sinn Sage 3:48

Not for not for me in my little studios? And generally no, we don't do like, there's not really an audition process for this type of stuff. A lot of people have agents, that these are more mainstream, bigger production companies. And at that point, it's more just based on what you look like. And then you go and do the performance and whoever you're working for is like, they're gonna decide that's not a great performer probably won't hire them again, or they're really great. We'll help them hire them a lot. I just connect with people on Twitter, like other performers on Twitter, and then I'm like, Hey, are you in Vegas? Sometimes it's just someone I've noticed on Twitter that I find attractive. Or maybe it's someone that I've heard of as being really good, a good performer. So I'll reach out to them or vice versa. And we just are like, cool, what, what kind of stuff do you want to make and when can we get together and pick a date. Also, the testing is obviously very important. We both have to go get tested. test is valid for two for 14 days, at which point you have to get another one.

Nick VinZant 4:54

I've always wondered that like so if somebody gets one right, and I don't think that there should be some massive stigma behind STIs are they like, this is something that exists in a lot of society? But are they? Are they essentially done in the industry?

Sinn Sage 5:06

Oh, God, no. So, yes, if you contract HIV, I would say you are essentially done in the industry. Um, I mean, you can work for yourself, you can do solo stuff, I mean, only fans is huge, like, you can still make a pretty good living, like not performing not working with other performers. Also, I can only speak from my experience, which is mainly like, it is queer, but there is a whole other side of the industry that is gay male, that I don't know as much about, so I'm not going to speak too much on it. But when it comes to the testing protocols, you know, and I think even still today, where we're at with HIV, that is a little bit stigmatized. I mean, if you are on the medication, and your viral load is down to zero, you cannot transmit it. You can't pass it on to others. So, you know, in those cases, we might need to revisit that at some point in the future, but the way things are now. Yeah, you want to be able to perform with other people.

Nick VinZant 6:08

Yeah, you specialize in queer content? How come you ventured into that specifically?

Sinn Sage 6:14

Oh, because I'm a queer person.

Nick VinZant 6:20

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're telling me.

Sinn Sage 6:26

So, uh, for me, it's just that, you know, when I got into the business, I was in a relationship with a sis male person. I was also very young. I've learned a lot about myself in the past 20 years, obviously. But, um, at that time, in that relationship model I was in, it wasn't even a question to me when I was like, Hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to get into this this work. I had told him when we first met, this is what I want to do. So he was aware. And then when I was moving forward into it, it wasn't even a question of, well, should I do boy girl, or should I not do girl it was just like, obviously, I'm not going to because I'm with my boyfriend. I'm not gonna fuck other dudes, but I kind of made it clear that I liked women that I was, you know, at that time, I think I identified as bisexual. So I knew that about myself. And I was like this, you know, at 18 I'm like, Well, is this okay? Like, you know, can I do this? You know, this is what I want to do with my life. Yeah. And so he's like, that's fine. You know, I don't mind. If you do scenes with women, that's cool. Um, for our relationship, it was terrible, toxic relationship on so many levels. But for me that that was how I got into the business. And then, when I finally was able to exit that relationship, I had already been doing this girl girl only lesbian work for, you know, eight or nine years. So I now have this freedom, right? To where I can make decide for myself, like, do I want to work with men now. And I have been on lots of sets of men, I had shot plenty of porn that had my net, like, done camera work for it. And I just wasn't, you know, it wasn't something that was enthusiastically like, yes, now I finally get to do this, I was just kind of more like, Okay, I'm going to consider this. I'm going to give myself some space from the breakup, it was very long relationship. And in that time, period, I think I just realized that it wasn't really for me to do boy girl. I felt that that was kind of the direction I wanted to stay on the path. I wanted to continue down, I expanded into working with trans people as well. So you know, for me, that's a big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to I want to improve that like visibility and like, give a bigger platform for like our differences as people and I'm just like one piece of that, but I'm

Nick VinZant 9:04

in that regard, right? Would your career have been? I'll put this in air quotes. Easier if you did boy girl from the very beginning.

Sinn Sage 9:14

So I'm not gonna say it would have been easier, in fact, have been friends with like a million other sex workers and hearing lots of stories and stuff. I honestly think it would be more difficult doing boy girl, um, and I'm not gonna say that that I'm speaking for everyone. I'm only speaking for myself, but there's a lot more you have to deal with in and um, I think that it was easier for me. I definitely would have have made and to this day make more money. No doubt about it. If I did, boy girl. I don't know. To me. That's not the most important thing. I think the most important thing is like staying true to yourself and the things you want to do and the things you want to be doing

Nick VinZant 9:59

when For your content, like when you're making your queer content, are you making it for other queer people? Or is it for straight people that maybe want to watch two girls? There's probably a better way. I should rephrase that. But you know

Sinn Sage 10:14

what I mean? Yeah, um, I think I'm just trying to make content for all types of people to enjoy. So, when we talk, especially about like, lesbian porn, especially mainstream lesbian porn, I think that we talk a lot about the male gaze. And I've been on so many different sets that like, I can tell when I'm on a set, where it's like, Hey, we're just trying to showcase like two women who are into each other having sex. Versus, hey, we need to see you penetrating her pussy with fingers or something, or hand you a dildo and say, Here, stick this in her, because we are making porn for the male gaze, and they need to see these type of actions happening. So to me, that's the difference between the content that is made for specifically like a heterosexual male to watch. And that's fine. And there's a space for those things, but I'm trying to make stuff that is like, That guy can enjoy it. But also, LGBT people can see themselves represented in that like authentic desire that authentic passion.

Nick VinZant 11:33

I think like my wife would describe it as Loving versus fucking.

Sinn Sage 11:37

Haha. That's one way of putting it. Yeah, I mean, I think I love i do i make loving scenes, and I make fucking scenes. But with what you're saying is like, um, you can put it that way too. I think

Nick VinZant 11:53

it makes sense. Right? Like, okay, so for me, right, right, watching adult movies, like there's certain things that I can speak from my perspective as a straight male. Like, there's stuff that I want to see. Right? So when you make things that for, from the queer perspective, or there's those kinds of things to like, Okay, people who are queer, they want to see this, this and this. And I guess what are those things?

Sinn Sage 12:17

I don't think we can do that. With queer people. Because it's such a massive community. It's a huge portion of the population. Obviously, it's a minority, but it's still, there's so much fluctuation and nuance of what people like and what people want to see and what they enjoy. So, you know, really, I'm not trying to tick off any boxes. Here, just do it based on what I want, and what the other performers that I'm working with want, from my experience. And with my fans, like they, they like to see from over here, too, all the way over there. I mean, everything in the middle,

Nick VinZant 12:54

is there kind of right? Because, you know, the algorithm is the algorithm. Is there certain queer content that does better than other kinds?

Sinn Sage 13:05

What I know what sells for me the best is definitely my strap on content. But that's because people know me for that.

Nick VinZant 13:15

Man. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sinn Sage 13:17

Yeah. And they know that I do it very well. And I do it better than a lot of other people. So I think that they come to me for that specifically. And I will say as far as my career content, like that is what sells the best. And I won't be like trance transport is having like a huge moment right now. It's getting really big. And I'm so happy to know that because I think it's been relegated it's been sidelined for so long.

Nick VinZant 13:49

Give me some leeway asking this question. Because I'm going to try to actually ask it from like an honest place of curiosity and interest, but I feel like I'm going to phrase things the wrong way. So when we talk about like, trans porn, that's generally men in men, women in women, like, you know this better than I guess, can you explain? Right? Can you explain? Explain that to me,

Sinn Sage 14:18

so a trans trans woman, and then there's trans men. So trans just means like, opposite. So that's why we came up with the word sis for people who don't identify as trans for people that identify as the sex they were assigned at birth. Because this means same and trans means like, opposite or whatever. So.

Nick VinZant 14:43

So a trans woman may have been a assigned male first, a biological male that is identifies as a woman is that right?

Sinn Sage 14:55

Um, the word like we use the word biological like

Nick VinZant 15:00

this, yeah, it's sticky, right? Just say assists. Okay? Yeah, this where I kind of,

Sinn Sage 15:07

I'm gonna tell you. Okay, yeah, I will be someone who was assigned male at birth, or assigned female at birth. Okay. And so now they are that they're the opposite of that. So a trans woman was assigned male at birth. And now a trans man was assigned female at birth and now identifies as a man. And then of course, we have non binary people who fall somewhere in between.

Nick VinZant 15:39

Do you think that can feed that confusion about it? Yeah, does that kind of has that kept it? Like what kept it because obviously, these people, and I don't mean that in that kind of way. But obviously, trans people have been with us for a very long time. Oh, is it just now? Like, why is it just now that we can openly talk about,

Sinn Sage 16:00

oh my gosh, because, you know, even that sometimes it seems like they're like, We are now in an age where I think the internet has helped a lot with us, too. We're being made aware that people are different. And that that is okay. So, whereas in the past, I mean, God, just think about the 90s. Like, Ellen coming out was this huge fucking deal just for her to be able to say I'm gay, not gay people have always existed. But it has been demonized. villainize punishable by death. To this day, there are countries on this planet where if you are gay, and they find out you will be executed. So this thing about being different being wrong, and about not understanding someone being afraid, which turns to hate. So I think now that we're just like, we're trying to make progress. We're trying to make economic progress. We're trying to make racial progress. We're trying to make gender and sexuality like, be accepting of human beings for being who they are. And not like other them. And you know, I think that we're, it's amazing how far we've come. But anytime progress happens, there's this like, very powerful backlash. And so we're obviously seeing that too. But I think that's the reason why, like, we're talking about it now. Because it is becoming more acceptable to just be who you are, and celebrate that.

Nick VinZant 17:43

But have you do you continue to see backlash from the kind of content that you put out there? Right, are there still you go to you go to John Smith, the head of a major porn company? And he says, None in my watch?

Sinn Sage 18:01

Oh, no, because the thing about porn is they follow the money, and they don't give a fuck what it is as long as it's profitable. So, I mean, I think when it comes to transforming the issue, previously, in past times, has been more along the lines of just fetishizing it and making it like, this is the little area for like the weirdos. Whereas now we're just like, No, these are actual human beings, and they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Because now we have, like, even just look at the awards show categories, like trans awards are being added as categories in places where they weren't before. And trans people are kind of demanding representation in this industry in a way that they never had before. So this is a big shift that's happening here in this industry. And I hope that it's like spreading out into the world, because that's the bigger goal. And that's kind of like what I want to be using my platform to do is, you know, yeah, I'm using porn to, like, hopefully help make the world a better place.

Nick VinZant 19:10

No matter what, no matter what somebody says, right, those two kind of statements is like, you follow the money. There's a there's a level of honesty there at the very least, right? And

Sinn Sage 19:23

a positive side effects.

Nick VinZant 19:25

Right, right. Yeah. And everybody, you know, people could say like, well, is adult films, the best way to spread the message while everybody watches them?

Sinn Sage 19:35

If I can explain to you like, the types of emails that I get from people. It's Yes, of course, there are times that people are like, Oh, hot mama with amazing ass. I love to watch you fuck. Cool. Thank you so much. That's awesome. But then I get I mean, over the past, you know, 15 years or so like these emails that I get from a lot from women who are just like I never watched porn. because it all looked like it was made for guys, and all it's fake, then I found your work. And I can't tell you how you have made me feel more empowered and free to truly express myself and come out of the cloud, how people told me to come out of the closet from watching my work, and that they're like, on their way to a better life for themselves, just from like, following me and the things I do and say, on the internet. And so, to me, that's like, the most fulfilling part, like, the money is good, because it's nice to be able to feed myself and have a house and stuff, but but the part that like, nourishes my soul, is this kind of feedback from people. And they're just like, you know, it might seem like it's nothing or like, it's just entertainment to get off to or whatever. And, you know, there's a lot of that. But at the same time, there are some people who are connecting with it on a deeper level, and it's very, very meaningful for them. And it just bothers me that so many people in the world can just discount that experience that real experiences some people have,

Nick VinZant 21:10

are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yes. Love that. When as a producer, where do you generally make most of the money off of a film, I

Sinn Sage 21:21

mean, my main places where I sell my content are actually clip stores. So I sell them as like, it's, it's funny, just like, the terminology is weird. Like, so there's a film, when I hear film, I think of like a four scene movie, like, you put four scenes together, you call that a film, call that a movie. And I do make those, I sell them on my website. And I, you know, money's, okay, it's like a bit of extra every month, but like, most of my income comes from selling the scenes that I make, like individually in clip stores. And if you don't make the money off of like just the scene, really, it's the fact that I have, you know, like 800 clips in my stores. And so every month that adds up to like, a good amount, and I produce custom videos. So I would say that's maybe like a third of the income, just like so the customer paying me directly to produce the same for them of what they want. I also then sell those on my club stores. And then the fan sites, so the only fans, that would be the other place? I guess the answer that question is really like, there is not one place where I make the most money. My income comes from having my hand in like several different pots

Nick VinZant 22:49

for a clip, right, like a good selling clip, that would sell how many?

Sinn Sage 22:54

If I sell maybe, you know, 20 or more of a clip, I would say it's sold pretty well. But it depends on the price of the clip too. So for example, I have this one clip that I made when I was first making clips, and it's my cheapest clip ever I think I sold for I think the lowest you can charge is like 399. Um, and it's a very niche sort of fetish. And I've sold like, maybe 500 copies of that, maybe more, I don't even know. But I think that's because it was so accessible and cheap. But then I have a clip, you know, that's maybe like 30 bucks, because it's like a 40 minute like lesbian clip with all different sex acts and stuff like that. You know, and so, if I only sell five of those, well, that's okay. Because it was more expensive clip.

Nick VinZant 23:48

It's a numbers game at the end. Yeah.

Sinn Sage 23:52

It's like this gaping hole. It's like a sarlacc pit if you know Star Wars, and you just have to, like throw content into it. And it is hungry, and it needs to be fed multiple times a week, and you just do it. You just gotta keep pumping out the content. And that's how you make a sustainable living.

Nick VinZant 24:13

Do you ever feel like oh my god, I can't have sex anymore though.

Sinn Sage 24:17

I think I'm just excited to be having sex with someone.

Nick VinZant 24:23

I think we all feel like that at the end of the day, no matter what your gender or sexuality or just all excited to be having sex with you and we all have that in common and we can cherish that and move forward as society a favorite type of scene.

Sinn Sage 24:41

My favorite type of scene is really just working is when the other performer is as into me as I am into them. So I like oh, and other performers like enthusiastic when they're like excited to be working with me. Man, especially when they just like say one nice thing about me being because listen, every time I approach a scene with a with another performer, I'm like, Oh my God, I hope they think I'm like pretty enough to be having sex with or I hope they think I'm, you know, like, hot enough or whatever. Like, I always still feel like shit, man, I can't believe I get to do this, like, so. Anytime they can give me a little a little nugget that says it like they want to be doing this with me, then I'm like, Yes. And those are my favorite types of

Nick VinZant 25:37

men most What is your most frequent request? Oh,

Sinn Sage 25:42

like strap on? For sure. Yeah, okay, that's probably it.

Nick VinZant 25:47

I think this for the same person to your most interesting request.

Sinn Sage 25:51

I've done a lot of really weird and interesting customs. Um, one of them, for example, was this German fellow, and he wanted another girl and myself in lingerie, and we put on rubber dish gloves. And we have like a bucket of soapy water. And then we have these little Monster High dolls are kind of like, like mini Barbie kind of dolls. And we like punch and slap the dolls. And when we twist their hair, the dolls are like, that's how they get off sexually. And we're also dunking them in the water. And like abusing them kind of. And that was like a 30 minute video. And then the second one he got was basically the same thing. But then he also wanted us to cook eggs on the stove. And I guess, like taught the dolls that they didn't get to have any of the eggs.

Nick VinZant 26:55

There is no limit to my personal opinion. As long as you're not hurting people against their will, however you get down is however you get down

Sinn Sage 27:04

100% As long as everyone consents to it, I don't. Yeah, I really don't care. As long as it's all consenting adults, you go ahead and do it. And you asked me to make a custom. And I have no problem doing that.

Nick VinZant 27:18

Well, I guess when was the last time though, that you like you were surprised? Like who? I had never heard of that before?

Sinn Sage 27:24

10 or 10 years ago?

Nick VinZant 27:27

Oh, good. Point, right. Yeah,

Sinn Sage 27:29

I would say that that. Just what the dish glove one that I just described described to you. I had never heard of that before. So that was maybe five years ago. But at the same time, too. There are like little fetishes within that video that I did. I have heard of and made lots of like, you know, I kind of figured it's all psychological, right? So in in my head, I'm like, Okay, this guy's mom used to do dishes with these rubber dish gloves. And so that's why he likes the squeaky sound. And he wanted us to use Monster High dolls because he wants to pretend like we're giant Tess's. And that's like a very common fetish. So you know, I'm just kind of piecing together a little things to sort of understand what we're making. So even though it's not, for me, um, I think that's why we make pretty good custom videos is because we try to understand like, what it is that the fan is asking for, sometimes the quote unquote normal customs are like the most boring ones for me to make, or just not interesting. You know, a Goi is like a jerk off instruction. And I made so many of those and they're very tedious and they're all the same and that's boring.

Nick VinZant 28:48

This one, okay, I don't know if you do this or not, but this person send this thing in. What's better? Okay. I was raised not to say this word. So I can literally not get this word out of my mouth. But it starts with See, there's

Sinn Sage 29:04

always a concern. Yes. My favorite word.

Cancer. I was like,

Nick VinZant 29:11

I wonder where's that? But that kind of busting or ball busting?

Sinn Sage 29:18

Well, I so I don't make ballbusting videos because I don't have a model. So I would need a male model who was okay with getting kicked in the balls. But I don't get asked for that either. So it's not like I don't make them because I have a problem with it. I've done it. I've performed in ballbusting videos before spine. And it's wild. Like to me that is wild. Like man, I keep this guy and he's like, Do it harder. Do her. I'm like, okay, and I keep him so hard in the balls. Like he started bleeding. He's like, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. I was just like, fucking Wow, this is insane. But I'm like, as I want to come back the videos we make. I mean I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the internet.

Nick VinZant 30:07

How do you make what makes it a good one?

Sinn Sage 30:12

A dedication and care to detail, we do close ups of the the action. And we get facial reactions, we add in sound effects. So like so my husband is my editor, a lot of combusting companies like leave one of these things out. But we do it all. So we get several angles of a particular kick or punch. And then we have facial reactions. So there's a lot of action is very dynamic. And then takes my husband anywhere from three to six hours to edit one of those because he is literally sitting there going like frame by frame for each connection that happens. And putting in like different kickin punch sound effects, like they're all different. And it just, it makes it look like a real movie, you're getting that real experience out of it. And then like when we we do the kicks, it's always barefoot. And we do make connection. But it's there's like, it's basically, I also produce a lot of like a wrestling and fighting type of content as well. And you just learn. It's like doing stunt work. It's like being a stunt worker, or whatever. So you learn techniques and ways of pulling your punches, pulling your kicks. So it's like they do make contact, but you're not going like full force. So it just looks really real. And I got in that sound effect. That sounds really real, the reactions are really real. And so yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:57

Is it from it now? Who's wanting to see it? Or the men wanting to see it? Or do the women want? Like good? Is it for men or for women?

Sinn Sage 32:05

We're talking about a very specific fetish. So the people who, like I'm not producing this for myself, and I'm not producing this like to be like, hey here for mass consumption, I guess, right? I'm producing for people who specifically go to a site like clips for sale, and they type in the search bar cut bussing, and that is what they want to see. I would say, if I were to guess it's 99.5%. A male audience.

Nick VinZant 32:41

That's honestly pretty much all the questions that I have is kind of what's what's coming up next for you.

Sinn Sage 32:47

Yeah, so Okay, so my studio produced a trans lesbian movie called sins, trans lesbian lovers. And that came out, I want to say like September, and that got nominated for an AVN award. So that was very exciting. Um, I will say that is my first production of a film that I made, that has gotten nominated for an avian award. I've won two avian awards, but that was my work as a performer. So do not think I have a chance of winning because I'm up against, you know, studios that have $20,000 cameras and shit, but just the fact that like, I'm getting that recognition as a creator and a performer for that film is very special to me. So that's very exciting. Those awards take place at the end of January. Um, and beyond that, I don't know. Whatever. I got my only fans going on, I put content on there every single day. I'm producing content and clips all the time for my many vids store, and my clips for sale store. And my website is sin dash sage calm. And that is where you can go and inquire about custom videos. I have an FAQ. It's very extensive answers all the questions about customs and a form you can fill out. There's information about all the films that I've been there, too. And, um, yeah, I think that's it.

Futurist Richard Yonck

How will the world change in 2022 and beyond? Futurist Richard Yonck joins us for a revealing look at the new technologies and trends that will shape the future. We talk Digital Humans, Biotechnology, Artificial Emotional Intelligence and manipulation by Algorithms. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things That Should End in the New Year.

Richard Yonck: 01:50ish

Pointless: 35:20ish

Top 5: 50:55ish

https://intelligent-future.com (Richard Yonck Website)

https://www.facebook.com/IntelligentFuture (Richard Yonck Facebook)

https://twitter.com/ryonck (Richard Yonck Twitter)

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Machine-Artificial-Emotional-Intelligence/dp/195069111X (Heart of the Machine - Book)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1948924382 (Future Minds - Book)

Interview with Futurist Richard Yonck

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we look into the future and count down the things we don't want to see in 2020. To

Richard Yonck 0:26

some of this, this is kind of an expansion of an area, we'll call digital humans, the idea that we've got more and more representations of ourselves in the world. In the current decade and beyond, we're going to see more and more kind of almost partnerships with a robot or other form of automation in the workplace, so that we're working side by side, this, the phrase for this that's often used is called Cobots, or a robot co worker, some of my biggest fears probably have a lot to do with algorithmic influence, these systems have the potential to, if not themselves, manipulate us be able to be used by other people to manipulate us.

Nick VinZant 1:13

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So the big question in this episode, what does the future have in store for us in 2022? And beyond? Our first guest studies exactly that everything from digital humans and emotional intelligence, to algorithms biohealth and the role that artificial intelligence will play in the coming decades. This is futurist Richard Young, moving into 2022. What do you essentially see ahead for us this year, and kind of in the immediate future,

Richard Yonck 1:56

there's really, from my standpoint, so many different fields, so many different considerations. So I'll talk about things like artificial intelligence. And right now we've got an enormous amount of advancement being made in voice tech, and different aspects of being able to incorporate voice as interface but also voice as a means of supplementing human workforce and human intelligence. Some of this, this kind of an expansion of an area will, we'll call digital humans, the idea that we've got more and more representations of ourselves in the world in the workplace, certainly increasingly in the metaverse, cyberspace, whatever we want to call it, in which we will be able to have representatives of ourselves some pretty rudimentary right now. But over time, they'll have be able to be our emissaries essentially be able to perform certain basic routine tasks, know what our preferences are, whether that's booking a flight for us, or, you know, even something is as currently complex as performing in an interview for us.

Nick VinZant 3:23

And you know, for me, like looking at this from a complete outsider's perspective, I guess, like what's the point? Like, what, what are we what's the goal of creating this kind of virtual selves?

Richard Yonck 3:34

Definitely a valid question. In terms of creating a world, a virtual world, there's a lot of hype, a lot of tech interest, where you have this plan, this desire to create an alternate form of reality, that thing is that a lot of people push back on this and say, you know, I mean, here, we're, we're trying to create this alternate reality, we're actually I creating a more space, more distance between ourselves, we're creating new ways of essentially distancing ourselves from human contact and human interaction. So that's definitely a negative and definitely a reason why this would be not necessarily as everything everybody wants it to be. On the other hand, as a, in a business use case, the opportunity to create things like digital humans, digital avatars, that can represent us and be used for performing various routine and repetitive tasks in the workplace, can increase efficiency and and it's essentially really reduced the number of people that are needed to perform a particular task right now we're we're seeing a real disconnect in terms of the number of people who are available to work and the number of jobs. They're not meshing, or we have a lot of gap there. And one of the ways that this is, unfortunately going to be addressed by some business, is through increased automation.

Nick VinZant 5:26

How soon do you think that's going to happen? Like when you look for the rest of the 2020s? What do you kind of see coming?

Richard Yonck 5:33

Parts of it are already happening? It's mostly a question of how good is it? Is it going to be dependable enough that you can put it into a, a work environment a decade from now? Oh, yeah, I would anticipate that we will see a lot of this.

Nick VinZant 5:51

And when we talk about chatbots, we're kind of talking about the idea of the thing like you do the Hey, I've got a problem with this company. You talk to this thing it like you put in the answer, and you get an answer immediately back like that kind of thing. But instead of having an obvious computer, it would be like me, giving those answers. Right

Richard Yonck 6:09

now you might see an image, it might be photographically realistic, it may be something more cartoonish, that is meant to kind of help suggest that this is a person to person interaction. And that it kind of tweaks some of what Sherry Turkle of MIT used to call our so called our Darwinian buttons, essentially, we are design, one of the earliest things we did as a species was developed language and a means of interacting with each other through emotional and visual cues, a lot of nonverbal cues, and so forth. So to have visual avatars that, continue that or extend that will essentially make us feel more and more like we are engaging with another person. And we fall into that habit very, very easily,

Nick VinZant 7:05

we will feel more like we're engaging with a real person, but it will be less of a real person that we're engaging with the same time, correct.

Richard Yonck 7:13

These are basically statistical models. They're simply connecting words and strings of words and phrases together, based on statistics. So there's no awareness there.

Nick VinZant 7:25

When you kind of look into the future. Are we more poised now? For a bigger change than we have been in the past? How close are we to the next big thing,

Richard Yonck 7:36

the next big thing is always around the corner. And you never know exactly when it's going to happen. If you're speaking about AI, and so forth, we're still quite some ways out from let's just say something that is it, artificial general intelligence, or something very self aware, and so forth. That's still many, many decades away. In terms of just technological development, and innovation, every single day, there's so much out there, and there's so many things that everyone is doing. Knowledge has a tendency to self reinforce, create self reinforcing loops. And so all of a sudden, we're able to do things with our knowledge of genetics. And by using AI and bioinformatics to start mining and finding out new ways to generate new drugs, treatments, therapies, and so forth. This coming decade is going to be huge for biotechnology and healthcare, digital healthcare. So this is definitely a time in which we're going to see enormous innovation over the course of really the coming decades. I don't foresee it slowing down, if anything, it will accelerate,

Nick VinZant 8:52

has COVID changed any of that? Did COVID Speed it up? Pause it have no difference at all, like what do you think

Richard Yonck 9:01

when COVID hit, it accelerated a number of technologies and really put the brakes on a number of others. So that right there, you know, shows you how things that occur in the in our world in our environment that maybe aren't necessarily anticipated can skew the direction that technology and other trends are developing. So, to be more specific, we saw an enormous advancement in areas like you know, remote technologies, the things like teams and zoom and everything else. They really went to town, expanding their capabilities in the during that period. Some of the abilities to deal with situations remotely, whether that's you know, various forms of of the Every drone work and so forth, these advanced. On the other hand, during that time, certainly we saw a huge drop off early, early COVID, at least in things like, for instance, rideshare. Some of it is about the industries, some of it is about the technologies that are considered to be viable to roll out during that time.

Nick VinZant 10:19

What do you think is kind of going to be the next big technology

Richard Yonck 10:23

AI is permeating everything is what what people don't a lot of people don't recognize is that AI is here, AI is everywhere. And it every time it rolls out in some new fashion and is incorporated into various devices in our environment, various parts of our environment, we think it's all very cool, very new, for a very short period of time, it gets good, and then it kind of disappears into the environment. It's part of our background. And it's, it's pervasive, it's there, but we don't think about it, a bunch of the things that go on in our cars, things that go on in our homes, the applications that we use on the computer, all of these are using various aspects and forms of AI, some of them are going to continue to get more intelligent, some of them, there's not much point in in adding to it. But the fact is that over the course of this decade, and the next we're going to see a range of deep learning technologies, forms of machine learning come out and be used in pretty much everything in our world. So just expect that that's going to become more and more a part of our world, and much of it will become less aware of overtime.

Nick VinZant 11:44

Is this going to be stuff though, that's like ultimately going to be good for society? Or is this going to be stuff that, you know, we we go to the lowest common denominator. And what I mean by that is like we invented the internet. And we could use it to have all of the information at our fingertips. But instead, we kind of use it to snipe at people on Twitter, right? Like, is this? Is this going to be good for society kind of things, or

Richard Yonck 12:09

it's an ongoing issue? And a very important question to be asking social media, certainly the internet, they didn't turn out quite the way people expected or wanted. And one of the things that I advocate is that we have incorporate more of a technology assessment in the early design processes of of these new innovations. Because this allows us to can allow us to try to anticipate and overcome some of the different kinds of issues we see with new technologies.

Nick VinZant 12:50

Yeah, and no, I think that a lot of the things that we would kind of naturally talk about are summed up in some of our listeners questions, so I want to jump into them. This this one, I think kind of hits it the thing that we were just talking about, are we creating something we don't understand?

Richard Yonck 13:05

That's a very big question. Are we creating something we don't understand? Absolutely. We are continuously in the process of in the course of building the world, building the future, we create things we don't understand all the ways that will be utilized all the ways it will develop the unanticipated consequences of it. When people Jenner developed the automobile, the early gas engine, they did not anticipate the way that it was literally going to transform our, our cities, our country, our environment. If cars didn't exist, our cities would have an entirely different configuration. And things like as simple as you know, how we lay out streets or pathways, how we have, you know, commit enormous amounts of space to parking and so forth. All these things. Were never foreseen at that time. This happens with every single technology.

Nick VinZant 14:18

When will the future look really different? And I think what they mean by that is like if I were to get into a time machine, like how far in advance would I have to go or be like, Oh, this doesn't even look like earth anymore. Like I don't recognize this.

Richard Yonck 14:32

If you could have looked down on the earth in 1900, we would with enough resolution, we would be able to definitely tell that this is a very transformed world. Part of it is what what the expectation is and as with other kind of forms of thinking imagery, what have you resolution So the more detail we look at, the more things have transformed and changed. As I say, AI is pretty much everywhere it's it. But if you don't know what to look for, if you aren't able to appear into the workings of a particular technology to understand or to see that you don't know that that's going on our world has transformed and is transforming rapidly in terms of it becoming what I typically refer to as more and differently intelligent. There's a growing preponderance of machine intelligence, some of it is skewed and biased. And this is transforming our world. Depending on what you're looking at. You could say that the world transforms almost unrecognizably ill in as little as a decade, think about what the world was like before social media.

Nick VinZant 16:01

What are we getting first flying cars are jetpacks.

Richard Yonck 16:06

We've got both jetpacks are actually kind of useful and cool. In a, there's definitely being incorporated more and more by the military. There's some real benefits there. Flying cars, we're getting into something that's kind of different there. From the standpoint, we can engineer almost anything except that at this stage, it's down to within the laws of physics, it's down to economics, for the most part, when you talk about a flying car, if you mean the Jetsons, where it is a something that has no apparent, you know, method of thrust. That's, yeah, that's gonna be a long time. If you're talking about something that's basically a personalized airplane, or helicopter or a quadcopter, or what have you, there's some thought about that being appealing to people who have considerable wealth to kind of skip around some of the traffic jams and problems in an urban environment and so forth. That is a different matter and gets into a range of issues around inequality problems of what happens when certain parts of society for go, you know, the what everyone else has to use. Does that is that to the detriment does that lead to deterioration of those services and so forth. So that's a big problem. But down to the real issues and and of having cars just kind of flying through the air on a hill, almost like another level of traffic, human beings did not evolve to navigate a three dimensional space, we've always pretty much occupied to possibly two and a half dimensions. We aren't fliers. So there's two problems with that we really make mistakes really quickly. So we've got to turn all of that over to AI to and that's got to have gotten to the point where that's really good. But any small accident you have a fender bender on the freeway, okay, you pull over, you have a fender bender in the sky, it's a catastrophic failure, and you fall. That's to your detriment. And it's a big problem for the city below. So there, you get into regulation liability, the insurers are not going to let that happen. I was

Nick VinZant 18:45

thinking about that I was traveling over Thanksgiving and less like thinking, Could you imagine if all these cars were just flying all over the place? Like it would be a nightmare? Yeah, well, will robots take over the world,

Richard Yonck 18:58

some people would say they already have. They will not take over the world in the IP for a very, very long time, in the sense of a Skynet Robopocalypse Terminator type style takeover. On the other hand, there's the economics of using robotics wrote using robots to supplement the workforce. In the current decade and beyond. We're going to see more and more kind of almost partnerships with a a robot or other form of automation in the workplace so that we're working side by side with technologies that are increasingly intelligent and increasingly able to perform certain tasks that they can do better than we can either through because of the repetition speed. What have you this? The phrase for this that's often used is called Cobots. Or it's like a Robot, sorry AI robot co worker. And this idea is pretty much we're developing in a slow evolutionary pace at this point. But it's increasingly how we work. We use technology all the time in the in our work in our environment, you know, different applications, certain amounts of AI that do analysis for us, and so forth. This just a further extension of this into the physical space. And certainly, we're already seeing this in warehouses, and other kinds of manufacturing and so forth.

Nick VinZant 20:38

In terms of biohealth, what do you think will be happening in that arena? Like, where do you think the changes are going to be there?

Richard Yonck 20:46

Right now, we are on the verge of an enormous amount of innovation and advancement in biotechnology, we have had the ability to sequence human, the human genome in detail for a couple of decades now. So it's taking a lot of time, but we're figuring out some really interesting approaches, and gaining new knowledge about how our bodies work, how biology works. And so we're getting some new, you know, incrementally new ways to deal with cancers through immunotherapy, what's we have to be very careful of, is creating problems for ourselves or future generations through the misuse of that genetic manipulation at this point, we have different tools like CRISPR. With that, potentially, we have the ability to make changes to the gametes, the the eggs and sperm that ultimately lead to the next generations, even if that is changed or manipulated, that can go really, really wrong. And the problems may not show up for generation,

Nick VinZant 22:10

what is your safest prediction for the future? What is your boldest prediction for the future? Like so bold, that if you're around like all your futurist buddies, like you're not even going to say it. It's so bold, that like they're gonna laugh in the fighting suggested, but what is your boldest and your safest prediction?

Richard Yonck 22:31

safest predictions easy, the sun comes up tomorrow. So the expectation that all aspects of the future are unknown or unknowable. It really runs through a whole gamut, a spectrum of certainties, the one that's out there, there has been speculation that somehow or another, we're going to have an ability to interact with the past. At some point, I find this highly unlikely. But if you extrapolate that long into the future, then at some point down the road, you could potentially have a version of our version of our society or civilization affecting change. In the past, I find that almost almost impossible. Ah, okay. There's one I definitely dispute. Okay. The concept that we are living in a simulation. There are people who have talked about this. I think, Musk, I'm not sure if Max Tegmark said something similar, but you know, on the order of 50% likelihood that this is we are in fact living in a simulation, I am going to go with the far more specific prediction that there is a far less than 1% chance we are living in a simulation. It's possible. But that's my prediction. It's very, very, very unlikely.

Nick VinZant 24:08

I don't even want to like think about that. I don't even want to think about it. Right, that I've always wondered, you know, like, what's why? What's the reason that some people think we are living in a simulation like where's the

Richard Yonck 24:23

no proof. So this is one of the big problems with it. It's not falsifiable in any way that I've been able to figure out.

Nick VinZant 24:30

Let me follow up that excellent point by a movie or TV show that you feel has the most accurate depiction of the future.

Richard Yonck 24:37

I love these things for entertainment, but I am simply not going to say any of them are really good representations of our reality, and certainly not yet.

Nick VinZant 24:48

Did you think we'd be farther ahead by now?

Richard Yonck 24:51

Hmm, great question. And very general. Thank you. So did, there have been definitely times Over the years and decades where I've looked at the top explored things and thought, yeah, we'll be at this stage at this point, and we're not. So early 2000s, we had predictions and some pretty accurate ones, that we were going to start seeing autonomous vehicles in around 2017 or so. They're not out there in the form, quite the way we would have thought that wasn't going to be like, Oh, they're going to take over the roads. But the technology is there, the technology developed, and we're at currently, what SAE talks about the Society of Automotive Engineers, talks about is level four autonomous vehicles, we won't see true autonomous vehicles, till probably 2030 or beyond. And I think that that's probably going to be pretty accurate. In terms of where I think I thought, at certain stages that certain aspects of artificial intelligence and its ability to have more contextual understanding would be further along at this point, we're moving into a stage that has been referred to as a third wave of AI, that some of this is developing into projects that are developing more and more capability of reasoning common sense. One shot learning or learning more like human beings do, in in these systems. And we're going to see that advanced quite a bit over the next decade or two. But I think I thought some of that was going to be here a little faster than it was,

Nick VinZant 26:53

correct me if I'm wrong on this. But the thing that I've always heard of like describing AI, and the challenges with it, is that you can teach a computer perfectly, how to play chess, all the strategies, all the stuff, but it can't then take all that knowledge and use it to play checkers. Like it can't think the way that we can where we can take lessons from one thing and transition into another thing.

Richard Yonck 27:17

Sure. Right now, when you talk about that example, we're talking about neural networks, these are systems that over the past couple of decades have gotten really good at certain very specific tasks, they take an enormous amount of training, lots and lots of data. And once trained, they can perform very, very well. There is when they are when the attempt is made to retrain, something occurs that's called catastrophic for catastrophic, forgetting that I'm not sure that's quite right. But anyway, the point is, it loses pretty much most of what it has learned or all of what it's learned, because it's not actually learning. So one of the things that's in this new third wave that is being worked on is to be able to accrete knowledge to to build on prior knowledge to inform what comes after. And that's what much more like what we do today. The other aspect of all of that, I've written a couple of different books about the future of artificial intelligence, future minds and heart of the machine. And in the heart of the machine, I explore the future of what's known as emotional, artificial emotional intelligence or emotion AI. This is these are technologies that can read and interact with human emotion. Now, that technology could one day lead to some very, very important aspects of increased intelligence in our machines, because one of the things that really informs a lot of our, in our intelligence is how we place value on in the world. If you based on your emotions, you know what, to look at what to pay attention to, at any given time, if I'm that chess playing computer, or robot in a room, and I'm playing away, performing excellently and beating the pants off of the human that I'm playing against, and that room catches on fire that the human is going to get up and leave probably rapidly and with a little bit of emotion about it, that program or that robot, or that computer is pretty much going to likely sit there and stay it doesn't have any means of recognizing that its environment. It's what the values have changed in its conditions, and it needs to be able to change its mission based on that.

Nick VinZant 30:11

What scares you what gives you hope?

Richard Yonck 30:14

The future gives me hope. So the future, as far as I'm concerned, is about potential. The future is what ultimately we are all striving toward. We don't, we may be able to remember the past, but being able to interact with anticipate and direct our present day actions to build a generated better future is really what gives us power as a species. Some of my biggest fears probably have a lot to do with algorithmic influence the idea that as we develop these systems as we interact more and more with these technologies, right now in the form of social media platforms, but potentially, later on in terms of other forms of power, environment, AI in our environment, these systems have the potential to, if not themselves, manipulate us be able to be used by other people to manipulate us. That's enormously problematic. It literally gets to a stage where you can look at it and talk about it, undermining freewill very significantly. So I think that's probably my one of my biggest, long term concerns is algorithmic influence.

Nick VinZant 31:39

Do you feel like we're already there? I

Richard Yonck 31:42

think we're on the road.

Nick VinZant 31:45

Yeah, it doesn't like because now I'm hearing about things where like, like, they can tailor this political message to this exact group, tailor this political message to this exact group, even though that group wouldn't necessarily have voted for that candidate. And if it wasn't for this thing, right? Well, you're just you're just become so specific.

Richard Yonck 32:04

Definitely things like that. But I think more nefarious, for lack of a better word right now, is the problem that if you have a system that is able to read and interact with you, whether it's through visual cues, eventually emotional awareness of these systems, and so forth, the ability for them to change their strategy, change script, highly rapidly based on the feedback from us. This creates a feedback loop, one that we in which we effectively become what's known in programming or in, in computer science, as an optimization problem. You want the person to click and click and click again. Okay, well, let's feed them A and B, oh, they click more on B, well, let's do that, again, with another set A or B. And you just keep doing it. And you keep and this is basically how something like Facebook works. That you extend that kind of thinking that kind of potentially manipulation into I mean, the ability to basically turn us into a, an algorithm for profit.

Nick VinZant 33:31

That's pretty much all the questions that I got, man, is there anything you think that we missed or anything like that? Hmm.

Richard Yonck 33:39

As I say, if we can imagine that we can build it, if we can take responsibility for the future that we want to see built, we can build that too. But what we have to do along the way, is not just assume that every single new thing is good. We have to be willing to assess as we go along. And in the aftermath, in order to try to protect the kind of future not just that we create for ourselves, but that we leave for future generations.

Nick VinZant 34:16

Oh, let me ask you this, like what's kind of coming up next for you? I know you got some books out

Richard Yonck 34:20

working on the next book, but yes, always out there doing keynotes for different conferences, consulting for business, and certainly writing articles and, and books. So that's kind of my gig. And that's going to continue to be the case for a good number of years yet.

Dating and Trauma Therapist "So My Mom's a Therapist"

From Dating and Relationship struggles to dealing with Anxiety, Trauma and Depression, Lisa with “So My Mom’s a Therapist” has quickly become a trusted voice for hundreds of thousands of people online. We talk dating difficulties, couples counseling, dealing with social anxiety and trauma recovery. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Christmas Characters.

Lisa: 01:59ish

Pointless: 30:13ish

Top 5: 50:39ish

https://www.instagram.com/somymomsatherapist/ (Lisa’s Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@somymomsatherapist (Lisa’s TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvOaBpMIiAY (Lisa’s YouTube)

somymomsatherapistpodcast@gmail.com (Lisa’s Email, Podcast Coming Soon)

Interview with “So My Mom’s a Therapist”

Nick VinZant 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, therapy insights, and the best Christmas characters

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 0:23

is I think, actually, it's worse now than it was even a year ago that we're really seeing the fallout now, I think people are looking for a placeholder for their anger. And it has more to do with them being hurt. And so I have a tendency to turn to the people that are so angry and bitter and say, I'm so sorry for what you were hurt. I'm so sorry. Whoever hurt you, that got you to a place that you hate them that much. Because that's the real issue. Our bodies are wired, are wired to put out fires, not to plant flowers. But where we need to go is we need to work how do I intentionally build things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, to offset the hard things in life, and that's when life starts to feel really good. I want

Nick VinZant 1:01

to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So we all know that we're dealing with difficult times, there's a lot of people who are struggling with a lot of different things. And there should be no shame, or stigma attached to that in any way. If somebody says that they need help. Our first guest is a dating and trauma counselor who specializes in dating and relationships, anxiety, stress, and depression. And over the last few months, she has gained a large social media following by really giving people good advice, actionable advice that might change their lives. This is Lisa, who's best known by her account name. So my mom's a therapist. Want to ask you this question first? How does somebody know when they need to go into therapy or when they should go and see a therapist.

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 2:07

So if you are not functioning super well, you're having a hard time doing the things that you need to do to make life happen, eating sleeping relationships showing up for your job, right? If you're feeling like you're just primal functioning is not working? Well, for sure. That's a yes. But a good portion of it is just really navigating life. So I'll have people too, who just want another set of eyes, helping them navigate life, especially because I work with a lot of teenagers and 20. Somethings just needing help needing help and needing direction. Or if you feel like you're not thriving in life, there's a difference between surviving and thriving. And if you feel like you're not thriving in life, that's another reason to reach out to Becky, there's got to be more than this. This is This can't be it.

Nick VinZant 2:47

So I'll use an example from my life, somebody who recently started going to therapy. But it was such a gradual thing, that they didn't really notice it until all of a sudden, I was like, oh my god, like I need help. Like, how do you notice the thing you don't notice and know that you need to get help?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 3:05

You know, I think that's one of the this is probably the one probably one of the biggest questions I get asked is like, how do I get my husband to go to therapy? How do I get my child to go to therapy, and you can't force somebody. And that's the hard part is because until you are at a place where you're willing to or you're recognizing or you're able to take the steps to come in, it's pointless to get somebody there anyways. Because I know what kind of work goes on in the room. And you kind of have to be in a place where you're ready to say, I'm aware of this, I see it. Okay, now I need to do something because honestly, it's hard work. It is hard work. So what you can do, if you have people around you, you can just gently point things out, you know, I noticed, I noticed you're having a hard time or you know, I'm noticing this is not it's not working super well for you. Or if you're in a relationship with them saying, you know, this is not working well for me. And I know this isn't working well for you. But I'm not sure we can help ourselves here. And I use that we language too. So it's not like I'm attacking somebody.

Nick VinZant 4:01

Have you seen a difference kind of in the number of people and the concerns that people have coming to you in the last couple of years? You know, everybody says the pandemic it's such a difficult time. But are you seeing changes in people's behavior?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 4:14

Oh, I mean, it is a it's a conversation daily with colleagues. I actually I don't have anybody to refer to right now. Because everybody I would refer to as waiting lists. I have a waiting list. I'll take only really complicated cases at this point. And I work probably way more than I should because it is I think actually it's worse now than it was even a year ago that we're really seeing the fallout now. And it's one of those things I think takes us a little bit to catch up with even people that felt like they were doing like they liked COVID teenagers or 20 Somethings or like yeah, their little social anxiety cells were like, Oh, we get to go indoors. We don't have to be around people and I would say well, that works until it doesn't 12 So now you have to go out and be around people again and it's like 100 fold. So really seeing a lot of kids that are really struggling you really, really struggling? Usually out of my caseload, I'll have like, one or two that are like suicidal, I now carry about five or six. So and I know I'm not an anomaly. So I think we're really taking a huge toll on people we are, we are meant to be around people. We are tribal. We are, we are relational. And if we are not around people physically around people feeling energy, it greatly impacts our mental health greatly.

Nick VinZant 5:24

I have some people in my life that have struggled with it, but then they've withdrawn so into themselves, that they almost can't go back into the world. What advice would you give to somebody that's like, Okay, how do I, how do I start dating again? How do I go to work and have to see people again, like that? I know that like, that might not sound like a difficult thing. But I think for some people that really is,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 5:48

oh, no, it really is, oh, it really I think, started we need to search as validating it. And that's where I start with like, well, hold on, like, this is hard, it is hard. And I really give it like the space, it needs to be like this is really hard. And sometimes people will beat themself up for it, or they just avoid and don't want to deal with it. And I really just honored to say that this is huge. This is really tough. And this is hard work. And so what I'm looking for is when I'm working with somebody, let's let the idea of getting back out into the world or dating again, since that happens to be happens to be the niche I fell into is a lot of dating and relationships is what I try to do is you just start small. So it's almost like exposure therapy, but the sense of like, let's start low hanging fruit. Let's look something like when you check out, go see if you can go to Target. See if you can find find the most non threatening person don't find the hot guy or the hot girl you'd want to talk to you. If you're looking to date, go find like the little old man or woman who's checking you out at Target. Ask them how their day is just strange, very slick. Just do that. If you stress out or freak out, okay, don't go back again, you find another target, find another Starbucks, but the low hanging fruit just to try to get our bodies to having a positive experience, but keeping it really small, where they can have also a sense of accomplishment. And like, Okay, I did that. And then building from building from there. But again, I think a lot of people too. They don't want to deal with it now. So they're like, no, no, like, I'm good. I mean, all I have to do is look all over tic tock to be like, I don't need anybody. I'm good all on my own. And I'm like, well, that again that that works until it does until you're you're lonely and you're wanting a partner wanting connection.

Nick VinZant 7:19

That's what I always worry about with friends of mine, like, Okay, you stayed in your house for two years. But you're 45 and single and you want to have children like what are you going to do?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 7:27

Yeah, yeah. And then and that's where I always like, there's only one road in if I want to have a family or want to have a partner, you got to go down that path. So at some point, we got to figure that path out because there's not another another route. And, you know, tell me if this is too much of a tangent off your question. But what I've often noticed is people because of their anxiety, when it comes to that, they will, they'll swing in and out, you know it, they'll swing, so it's like, I'm never dating, I'm not going out. I'm not dating anymore, I'm fine on my own. And then when they do decide to date, it's like they swing all in with with very few muscles. Now remember, their muscles have atrophied because they've been at home for two years haven't dated. And then they go to try to go back into the dating app world. And they're like, Alright, I'm pulling up my sleeves, I'm going back in and then it's like a shit show. And they're like, oh, like, like, this is horrible. This is it. I never want to do it again. So they swing back out. And again, it's there's that like, all it's like the diet mentality. It's like I'm either fully dieting, or I'm fully like, you know, eating everything in sight. And what we're what I encourage and what we're looking for is no, no, how do we start to thread it in? We want a lifestyle? How do we create a lifestyle? Just like a lifestyle of eating a food? How do we create a healthy lifestyle of dating? Which is, how do I just dip a toe in and then come on out, you know, get you get build that muscle slowly over time, so I can build an endurance. So I'm not swinging into this, like all in or all out of dating?

Nick VinZant 8:48

What are some of the other issues that you're usually seeing people are treating people for?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 8:54

You know, um, I would say a lot of lot of depression, a lot of suicide, a lot of self harm I get I'm working within a population of a lot of teenagers. A lot of anxiety, social anxiety, OCD, I'd say both of those. And then a lot of academic issues from people who haven't had a lot of academic issues before because we lost the external value validation and being in the classroom and getting all the attention for the teacher. And so a lot of people that really hadn't been thriving up to this point are not, not not thriving.

Nick VinZant 9:23

I may edit this question out because I want to ask you something. But then when I look back on it, it may sound like a really stupid comment. So may edit this out. But like, Have we lost any kind of toughness at all? Like have we become where everything is the end of the world?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 9:43

Yeah. Gosh, that's such a good question. Because there's so much there's so much to say that the minute I want to be able to say yeah, we've lost that toughness. Part of me wants to be like No, no, I I've seen people with a high level of grit. I've seen people I call it a high level of grit, which is that sense of self, I don't look around, I don't look at that and be like, Oh my gosh, that's a huge mountain, I have to Oh my gosh, I can't do anything about it. Grit is like, I don't look up at the mountain, I just put one foot in front of the other, and I just do what I need to do. And once I get over the mountain, and over to the other side, look back and be like, holy cow, I can't believe I made it over that now. And I've seen that and I see people with a high level of grit. Do I also see people that look at that mountain, and have a tendency to look at the mount and be like, I can't do anything? I can't. That's too big. This is actually not my problem. This is not about me. It's about that the mountains too big. Right? I can't do this. Do I see that as well? Yes. Do I see more of that in a younger generation than I've seen before? Yes. Yes. I don't see as much grit. However, does that mean that it's not here? No, I, there's always exceptions. And you'll always see that.

Nick VinZant 10:50

I would say though, and correct me if I'm wrong here too. Right. Like you and I are both have an older generation. And I feel like older generations always look at younger generations, like oh, they gone soft. Right. So there is kind of like, kids today. Yeah, there's some of that too, you know,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 11:06

apps. Absolutely. But I also feel like there's an element here, we need to take in consideration and you told me to if this is too far off base, but that is it, given because of the because of social media, because of internet, the main voices in our lives growing up were teachers, you know, coaches, parents, you know, whatever your local community was, those were the voices in our life. And now the younger generation, they're a lot of their voices, a lot of them, they fired their parents, and a lot of them the voice the main voices in their life are influencers, influencers, who are who are still trying to figure out the world themselves. So do I see the more overwhelmed or more kind of losing their way than previous generations? Yes, they do.

Nick VinZant 11:50

I would say too, and kind of that conversation, too, is like the gatekeeper isn't there anymore, like the people that you and I used to grew up listening to, they were generally the experts in the field. And now it's kind of could be anybody with any kind of thing to say, yeah. And if it resonates with that person, like, I'm not a therapist, but I had a boyfriend once, right? It's kind of a good friend, right? Whatever. That's

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 12:11

exactly how I ended up going on Tik Tok was five and a half months ago, I was looking over my daughter. So I was on Tik Tok. I was looking over my daughter shoulder. And it was a little sweet little 20 year old thing and spandex darling. But she was giving dating advice. And it was, by the way, the worst advice I've ever heard. And I turned to my kids, and I was like, What is this shit? And they were like, oh, yeah, there's like tons of them on tick tock. And I was like, You're kidding me? And I'm like, Yeah, and that's when I started getting on being like, Okay, I got to give some sound advice here. Because this is I'd actually say to do the opposite of what this person says suggested, and a lot of them actually breeding hate for men and hate for women. And I'm like, Oh, that's not going to get us anywhere.

Nick VinZant 12:48

I want to do something a little bit different than we have. In other episodes, we usually get used. We get a lot of kind of listeners submitted questions, but I want to boil these down, if I can into kind of just broad topics, and just what you think about them? People who are having commitment issues, what would your advice be to them? Like, what should they do?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 13:07

Yeah, you know, I think if it's usually when it's commitment issues, it has to do with our, it has to do with our survival mechanism. Our bodies are wired to protect us, you know, the whole goal of our brain and our body is to protect us and keep us safe and to prevent us from being hurt. So it has more I would my encouragement is if you have commitment issues, it has more to do with your survival mechanism in your body and your fear of getting hurt fight or flight response. And so my encouragement would be how do you find someone like me, a therapist or a social worker to help you learned how to regulate your body? Because if you think that that's going to go away, that's not going to go away? If I just find the right person, this will go away. And it's about how do I learn how to manage and regulate my body when it wants to run because it scared?

Nick VinZant 13:49

Imposter syndrome?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 13:51

I'll speak on that one. So imposter syndrome is this sense of feeling like a fake? You know, so actually, I I'll see, I'll see a therapist, I'll be a therapist to other therapists. And that's actually something that often hears them feeling like I'm an imposter. I'm acting like I have it all together, and I don't you see it in dating, too. It's this sense of I'm putting this false person forward. That's like really not me at all. And feeling like I'm an imposter in my own life. And again, that's where it's really that sense of how do I get back to what who, who really, am I how do I? How do I tend to myself, I love saying this on my videos, but you spend more time in your body and with your thoughts than anybody else on this planet. You spend more time with your with yourself and your own thoughts that anybody else even your spouse on this planet? How do we how do we start to make that the relationship we work on the most? How do I start to actually not just tolerate myself but but like who I am? And believe it or not, that's the best way to attend to that imposter syndrome is to start to who who am I and how do I how do I tend to this relationship with myself?

Nick VinZant 14:52

This person just says, Why do I always date the wrong men? And I think we can we can supplant men with yeah whatever, right? Yeah.

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 15:00

All right. You know, I would say a good a good hunch on that, when I usually go with is that there's something with that that's familiar. we gravitate towards what's familiar, not necessarily what's best for us, but what our body knows. So we will often gravitate towards something our body knows even if it wasn't something we like, like how our parents were how a past relationship when we were young was, but ultimately, a lot of the questions I get asked that goes along with this is like, Why do I always attract the right guys? And like, it's not about whether you attract the right guys? Or the right gals? It's about how do I learn how to communicate? How do I learn to get to know somebody? And how do I learn how to set boundaries, so whether you like me or not, it doesn't matter if you're a good guy, or a good or a bad guy. I'm learning how to set boundaries. So I'm picking somebody, that's a good fit for me.

Nick VinZant 15:44

Um, you know, look, I'll be honest about my family life, and that we have dealt with this in which not getting into the politics of it, let's, let's stay away from that. But like there are a big divide sometimes in families, and we have been separated from family members who have gone down certain roads. But for people who are going into the holidays that time of year, like what advice would you give to somebody that's struggling with family members or a family member, that they may have been alienated from because of political or whatever kind of divides?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 16:14

Yeah, that is so hard. So I would go in and believe it or not, I would go a different direction than most people would would expect. And that is, if you try to think about that person, you don't have control over that person, you don't have control whether whether that person is going to spout off about their political belief, or, or how, or maybe there's tension between family members, the only thing I have control over is myself. So what I really encourage and what I work with people on is like, okay, let's have a plan going into the holidays of how to regulate yourself. So you know, if Uncle Bob starts going off about something that I know, just fires me up, what are my things that I know, help regulate my body, I'm looking for things that shift my nervous system back to a regulated state. So all have things already in place, like going for walks, right going for a walk, be the one to volunteer to go get ice, I'm running to the store, anybody want anything, so that you give yourself away a pendulum eating out regulating your body and coming back in, if you know, your family already keeps you charged the whole time, I have them do what's called a drip system, I'm putting a drip system in of things that will regulate my body, whether I need it or not, whether that means I go into the back room and I take a nap or I go for a walk, or I just put on maybe just put on some music that I know really calms my body down. So I have them put in in a drip system. And I'll also have them do what's called front loading before they go in. front loading is just a term that says I already know I'm going into a stressful event, right? And how do I just really get myself regulated, which means I'm taking deep breaths, I'm really calming my body down. Before I go in knowing it's going to activate me, and I make sure I have a time limit. If my family is really tough. I make sure like me and my partner were like, alright, we got two hours here, we got three hours here so that my body knows, okay, it's limited and ends coming and ends come you got this two more hours, you got this and that makes your body be able to manage it more than feeling like it's stuck in something that's flooding.

Nick VinZant 18:04

Where do we get like most of our issues from? Are they deep seated things that we got in childhood? Or in our teenage years? Or do we like pick something up later on in life?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 18:14

No, it's such a great question. I really believe it's like a slot machine. And it's different for everybody, all of us have such customized unique paths. But two people can have the same experience grew up in the same house have similar experiences, and, and interact with and react in their body in totally different ways. Because we're like a slot machine. Nobody has, it's your DNA mixed with your upbringing mixed with your environment mixed with your individual experiences. And so it's everybody's going to react differently, which is why something may register in your body as traumatic but not traumatic in my body, everybody's different. But all of those it's one of those things that it's as we accumulate different things through life, they're going to impact us, you could have a horrific accident in your 30s. And that, of course that's going to impact you. So but somebody may not have that but have childhood trauma. But I think the one thing that is impartial to everybody is that life, there are hardships that come with life. struggles are not an intrusion of life. They're part of life and some people at offended, offended. Like it's almost like Life is like that's an assault on life. No, no struggles hardship are not an assault on life. They're part of life, learning how to navigate those as our work.

Nick VinZant 19:24

That's the way kind of thing we talked about a little bit earlier. That's like, the hard thing is like, right, like, is this a problem? Or is this a natural struggle of being alive? Because life is kind of supposed to suck? Right? Like me and the other co hosts of this channel we talk about, like 90% of life kind of sucks. You're just doing the same stuff. And it's supposed to be hard and you're supposed to fail over and over and over again. But like when do you know like, you know what? This isn't right. I should probably get some help. See

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 19:52

an island that feisty like reply to me wants to push back and be like, No, like no, like, no, no, no, no life. It's hardships in life as it struggles but but I will, I will, I will fight until I have a life that is like calm and pleasant and joyful. What is the actual goal we're going for. I always tell people imagine like a jar, imagine a jar, what we think life's going to be is like food coloring, where the whole jar is either blue and sucks, or the whole jar, we put a drop of food coloring a pink and we want this, we think life's supposed to be all rose colored. And it's not like that. Instead, imagine a jar, and you're gonna have your hardships, those are little blue balloons that are filled up. Our goal is to say how do I find little balloons to put in my jar of things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, silly to offset it so that when I look at the jar, I can see the blue, but overall, I see pink, bringing in what's going on in our bodies, our bodies are wired to for threat, our bodies are wired to default to threat to put out flowers or to put out fires. This is when I listen, our bodies are wired, are wired to put out fires, not to plant flowers. But where we need to go, is we need to work how do I intentionally build things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, to offset the hard things in life. And that's when life starts to feel really good. Really good. Not perfect, hard balloons are there. But I've worked on building in these things, snacks and meals, little things that are calm and pleasant to start to change the way my feels.

Nick VinZant 21:23

Okay, these are some of the more controversial questions I get. Do people really not know what their issue is? Or do they secretly know what it is? And they just don't do anything about it? Mm

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 21:38

hmm. You know, I, you know, I love that question is because there, there'll be people that come in, who will be like, oh, yeah, I need to work on this, or this spouse is bring. And I will say, Wait, what do you want this to change? Like, do you want it to change? Because just because you know, you have something doesn't mean you necessarily want to get rid of it or want it to change? Because there's, you may lose something. So I don't know if this is answering a question directly. But that is one of the things I always stopped to make sure. Right. The other thing I also make sure when I'm working with a couple, the first I started so do you guys want to work on this? Do you want do you want to be together? Because just because you assume someone's aware of something doesn't mean necessarily that they're, they want it to change, or they want a marriage to work? So you got you got to start with asking them, and also kind of getting down to well, if you didn't change it, did things things got better? Would we lose anything? Is there anything that we would lose? Or there'd be a cost? To

Nick VinZant 22:31

have like this question, this person just says, Am I the problem? And I think what they mean essentially is ultimately depending no matter what happens around people's lives, and we're not talking about like extenuating, extending waiting circumstances, but in general people's lives, are they usually ultimately the cause of the things that are happening to them?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 22:51

You know, I would say that's a combination. Sometimes we are the cause, Sometimes life happens to us, and it has nothing to do with us. But when I look at when I look at that, what I hear even in the question itself, am I the problem? Because nobody wants to find blame. If either you need to be the problem, or I need to be the problem because somebody has to be the problem. Why does somebody need to be the problem, because if I can point to where the problem is, and somebody needs to fix it, that's our brains are built, what our brain is trying to do is say, I don't want to be heard anymore. So I have to be able to identify who's to blame here so I can point to who needs to fix it. Right? As opposed to, so I really shift our mentality to say, Oh, I don't think it's that black and white. Until we take our last breath. We are under construction, and you have an invitation to work on yourself. How I see my life is fully up to me. How I my personal one, one of the biggest things I've noticed with clients, they come in hoping for a lot of changes. And yes, external changes may happen. But the biggest changes happens in their life is when they shift their perspective, how they see their own life. So when it comes to you, how you see your own life, yes, that's fully your responsibility, how your invitation to grow. Yes, that's up to you, that you are in control of that you can work on that you can grow. Some things are out of our control, and they just happen. And that's part of life as well.

Nick VinZant 24:08

Who's more to blame for relationships? Men or women? Who's the problem? Okay, the honest answer the problem?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 24:17

Ah, you know, if, you know, it's this is actually a big theme and people that watch a lot of my tic tock videos, no, because I cannot stand the all men or all women. And so I think the minute we try to point a finger on men or a long finger on women, we actually again, there's that blame again, I was just talking about it's either you're the problem or in the problem. So who are we pointing the finger at the men or the women? And in actuality, I would say we have to leave it individual. We have to give them names. There's some great guys and there's some and there's some not so great guys. There's some great girls and there are some not so great girls, but the minute we start to lump everybody together, it's too easy to start to have hate and bitterness and blame. And by the way, even if I were to say Say, men are the problem that while that does is it prevents women from actually looking themselves and growing and seeing how they can grow in a relationship or vice versa. If I were to say, Oh, these new age women, it's easy. It's these women, then all the men are like, okay, good. There's the problem right there. And all of a sudden, what does that do? It takes the eyes off yourself. And it takes off from yourself and say, oh, where can I grow in relationship? Who do I need to still work on? So the answer I would say, is C, none of the above.

Nick VinZant 25:24

I get I get fired up about that, too. And I see those tick tock videos or videos like all men suck all women sucks, like, no, it's probably just the people you're walking around with. It's like, there's a bunch of good people

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 25:34

and good people. Exactly. And now I'd like to take it okay. Well, okay. Okay, now that you've determined that now, now what? And now it does that make our odds of dating one better? Like we're where do we go from there, because all that does is get us stuck in our own bitterness. And I'm all I always say, I think people are looking for a placeholder for their anger. And it has more to do with them being hurt. And so I have a tendency to turn to the people that are so angry and bitter and say, I'm so sorry for what you were hurt. I'm so sorry. Whoever hurt you, that got you to a place that you hate them that much? Because that's the real issue.

Nick VinZant 26:04

This one's a little bit. This one's a little bit more lighthearted. But after listening to people's problems all day, how can you stand people?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 26:15

You know, if anything, I'm a true extrovert. And that really energizes me and I love that every hour is different. I think. I think if anything, it makes me love people even more. I just look at us as human beings, myself included, and oh my god bless us look at us go. I mean, look at us trying to figure out this show of a life sometimes. I mean, if anything, it just makes me I think love people even more, but I can tell you, you know, the the way that I the way that I've filled my own tank after working all day is I will grab a glass of wine and watch like bachelor and Paradise or some no brainer TV, like nothing that has to do with me, you find me the trashiest TV show. And that is usually what I'm watching in order to refill my tank. Missing this teenage movies.

Nick VinZant 26:59

I don't know if you can answer this one or not. But most interesting case you've ever had,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 27:05

you'll actually have permission to share this story because um, she actually started sharing this story publicly. Um, hardest case. And the most endearing to me, probably not interesting, but the most endearing was a mom who lost her seven year old child. And I don't think I don't think you're ever the same after the, and I think to walk with her, and watch these little, little pockets of healing with her. If anything, it just felt like I almost wanted to thank her for letting me be in the room, just to watch her heal. And something to me that just was so life changing. And watch her heart grow and heal. And that Collateral Beauty that comes out of it. It's it's never You never asked for suffering. But the redemptive value are things that come out of it that otherwise wouldn't have and watching a book come out of it a book deal and watching her speaking and that that came out of that and her beautiful heart. That that was that was a journey.

Nick VinZant 28:08

I feel like we should end on a happier question. But that's no there's for people maybe who don't have children and listening to this, like there is no pain or worry like that. Right. And if that's not a road that you decide to go down, or one that you're blessed with like that is

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 28:28

I can, I can if we want to learn a little later no to I can't tell you probably the most fun situation I got got to work with it was very high. So I get an opportunity every now and then to work with somebody in the industry. And I had somebody that reached out not didn't honestly want to see me for therapy. But it was just very short term. But they had gotten a role on a primetime television show. And they needed it to be a teenager. That was extremely a mean mean girl and she couldn't access a mean girl because she wasn't a mean girl. And my job was actually to do her psychological work to get her into a place where she'd had hurt or pain in her childhood, which she hadn't had to get her to be this like kind of mean girl and then also to make sure I could get her out of it. So I actually was doing the opposite of what I do in therapy is how do we get you to a place where you're acting out? Lashing out and doing everything you shouldn't be doing? And then how do I make sure we can get you back to where it used to be. So that was actually that was kind of fun. That was very interesting.

Nick VinZant 29:26

So you can help people and fuck them up. That's it. I found a new tool I have. I want to thank Lisa so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Instagram, Twitter and Tik Tok, and we have also included her information in the episode description. If you feel like you or someone you know needs help, don't hesitate to reach out. I can tell you that. therapy has made a profound difference in the lives of people that I know. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. I have two questions for you. One, have you ever considered going to therapy or felt like you needed to go get therapy? And two? Would you rather be an elf? Or a reindeer? For?

Electric Violinist Mia Asano

From her music to her viral videos, Mia Asano is bringing something new to a classic instrument. We talk Electric Violins, the pressure to be perfect and the highs and lows of sudden social media fame. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things We Wish We Were Better At.

Mia Asano: 01:39ish

Pointless: 30:06ish

Top 5: 44:00

https://open.spotify.com/track/1ueJotDhUqui1VJp0piINB?si=438e7ae7d84740a9 (Mia Asano Spotify Music)

https://www.instagram.com/miaasanomusic/ (Mia Asano Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@miaasanomusic?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 (Mia Asano TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/c/MiaAsano/videos (Mia Asano YouTube)

https://miaasano.onuniverse.com/ (Mia Asano Website)

https://www.facebook.com/miaasanomusic (Mia Asano Facebook)

Interview with Violinist Mia Asano

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, violins and things we wish we were better at

Mia Asano 0:22

when I was around age 13, I discovered electric violins. And then for me, it was game over from there like that I was like, This is what I have to do, I have to get my hands on an electric violin, playing violin is very, very difficult. And you're trying to train your muscle memory so that your fingers go to that exact perfect 10th of a millimeter spot every single time. And so, it really takes a lot out of you what ended up happening, I was going through kind of a period of questioning myself musically and I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome. I posted this one video, and I woke up the next morning with 100,000 followers and I was at the grocery store and I started crying.

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think the best way to introduce our first guest is to let you hear her music

this is electric violinist. Mia Sano was it always the violin for you? Or did you try other instruments and then find the violin?

Mia Asano 1:44

When I was five years old, I was given the choice from my parents. They said you could play a violin, guitar or piano. And I chose the violin. And, you know, I could have had other opportunities to try other instruments throughout the years, but I kind of just fell in love with the violin right away and basically never looked back.

Nick VinZant 2:02

What was it about it?

Mia Asano 2:04

Um, it's hard. Recalling back to my five year old brain, I think I just probably liked the look and sound of it the most,

Nick VinZant 2:13

I would say that probably the violin is the coolest looking instrument to play.

Mia Asano 2:19

I would I agree with that. I think both a typical acoustic classical violin, I think it looks beautiful. And it's one of my favorite instruments. But then when I was around age 13, I discovered electric violins. And then for me, it was game over from there like that I was like, This is what I have to do, I have to get my hands on an electric violin. And that's why what I do normally now is I play both acoustic violin and electric violin. But I would say my primary at the moment, and what I'm known for most is being an electric violinist.

Nick VinZant 2:53

So with me knowing absolutely nothing about violins besides what they're called strings. What's what's the difference between your kind of classical violin and an electric violin like what's, what's the difference there.

Mia Asano 3:10

So, classical violin, it's also called, I mean, I call it an acoustic violin, but a lot of people recognize it as a classical violin. So you go to an orchestra and you see people playing these wooden instruments, that's, that's a violin. And typically, they have four strings, the string notes are E, A, D, and G. A lot of the time people who play it will focus on the, the music of the classical tradition. So you know, your Bach and your Beethoven and your Mozart. And that's, that's a typical like classical violin. You also see though fiddle players, they'll play on acoustic violin as well, but they call them a fiddle. And, and that's what when people typically think of a violin, that's what they think. An electric violin can take many shapes and forms because it doesn't rely on the body of the instrument to project the sound. So as you can see, in a classical violin, it's hollow inside. And so through those little squiggly s looking things on the on the instrument, the sound comes through those they're called the F holes. And the instrument itself is projecting the sound out. But on an electric violin, a lot of the time the body of the instrument is solid, or it looks really weird. Like they can make them look as weird as they want. There's this one maker that makes them look like skulls, or there's one the one that I play on. It's called a viper, from wood violins, and it looks like a flying V electric guitar, and it has frets and seven strings. And so what an electric violin allows you to do and why I became obsessed with them really quickly, is they're really similar to electric guitars. So you can play you can plug it into like a guitar effects pedal rig, and so I can put distortion on it. I can make it sound like an electric guitar, I can put all these different crazy effects on it and make It sound like not even like a violin anymore. So something I'm really passionate about is just breaking the boundaries of, you know, I was classically trained for 16 years, I still play classical music, and I love it. In addition to that, I have all these other musical interests like rock and pop, and electronic music. And my electric violin allows me to play those and play stylistically more appropriately in the setting. If I'm in a rock band, then I can plug in and play rock music instead of then I'll go play fiddle tunes with my Celtic band on my acoustic violin. So that's that's the difference.

Nick VinZant 5:33

Is there any kind of animosity there between like the classical violinists and the electric violinist like all these kids, their damn electric violins?

Mia Asano 5:43

Um, yes. There's different. You know, I think this is true in any community, when people do something that's different. And that kind of breaks from tradition, there are going to be purists who take offense to it. I've experienced incredible support from musicians in the classical community who see what I'm doing. And they think, like, I really love that because it's, it's taking the violin to a new level that's opening it up to new audiences, and blah, blah, blah, then there's other people and I get quite a bit of hate comments on my social media platforms, from people who say, I've been told that I'm a disgrace to the classical violin world, I've been told that there's like kind of an ongoing joke from some YouTube channel of people calling it calling my electric violin sacrilegious. So and I know it's kind of like an internet joke. So I, I don't take offense to it or get upset by it. But you know, there's a lot of people who will be like, That's a sacrilegious file and just play an acoustic violin play a classical violin. And there's a lot of people who, because, admittedly, to be a classical violinist, it takes a lot of work. There are people that are practicing like six to eight hours a day. And you know, I grew up doing that I was I was in deep in the classical world. So I have a lot of respect for the classical community, I'm still I still consider myself a part of it in addition to the other stuff that I do. But there's people that have to put in so much work to play this music that is so intensely difficult. So to see someone playing an electric violin, there's a lot of misunderstandings, people think that it takes less skill to play an electric violin, which is not true. And there are people that think that because I'm playing pop music, or rock music, people who are putting in six hours a day practicing this intense classical music, some of them, some of them get offended. They're like what you're doing is so easy compared to how much work I've had to put it's, I think it's a it's a misunderstanding, because I still have to put in a lot of work,

Nick VinZant 7:39

when you look at kind of an orchestra is a violin a harder instrument to play than, say, like, the saxophone and the, like, when people like, Ooh, you got to be good to play the violin.

Mia Asano 7:55

People have to work very, very hard no matter what you play. So that's, that's the caveat. That being said, a playing violin is very, very difficult. And I feel very fortunate that I started when I was young, because I'm like, Okay, I didn't I didn't come up with this. Itzhak Perlman, a very famous violinist said this, he said, you could take a beginner and sit them down at a piano and try to teach them Twinkle twinkle little star, sit them down at a piano and sit them down at a violin. By the end of the day. On the piano, it'll sound like Twinkle twinkle little star on the violin, you have no idea what it's gonna sound like. Because you're dealing with the bow, which has the potential to sound so horrible if you don't know what you're doing with it. Whereas, so like, I think on any instrument, it can be very difficult to play the repertoire, like the difficult repertoire. On the violin, a lot of my students struggle a lot with making it not sound like screeching or that type of stuff. It's very challenging. So I'm glad I started when I was young, because I joke that it takes you about 10 years to kind of figure out how to make it sound not terrible. And then after that, hopefully you're good enough that you can get into a music school.

Nick VinZant 9:06

So why is it so difficult, um,

Mia Asano 9:09

so definitely, the bow adds a whole nother level because you're not just there's there's so much potential, like I just mentioned for the bow to sound scratchy or screechie. The other really difficult part is on the instrument itself. You want your notes to play in tune. And on the violin, there's about a 10th of a millimeter of space where you're playing the exact right note, and if your finger is anywhere around that perfect spot, you're out of tune. And so unlike on a guitar where you put your finger down between the frets, and that's the correct note, or on a piano where as long as hopefully the piano is in tune, you press the key and it's in tune on the violin. You could put your finger down in the right spot, and I'm putting finger quotations the right spot. And it could still be the note, but not the perfectly in tune notes. So I used to spend, I would have a violin lesson and we would spend the entire hour working on one measure of music, because I would be, I wouldn't be playing that note perfectly in tune. And then a lot of the time on violin, you're playing chords. So that's multiple notes at the same time. And you have to play those notes. So they perfect are perfectly in tune with each other. So the way I would do that is I would play it and adjust my fingers slowly, until I can hear them ringing them in the most beautiful Intune way. And then I would take my hand off the instrument, I put it back on the instrument and try it again. And you're trying to train your muscle memory so that your fingers go to that exact perfect 10th of a millimeter spot every single time. And so it really takes a lot out of you, I will say. And then my electric violin has frets on it. And so it looks like guitar frets. But contrary to popular belief, I have a lot of people that think that because I have frets on my electric violin automatically, I can play in tune. So people will say you're cheating because your frets on your electric, the frets don't actually help me play in tune, because it's the same way as on my classical violin, I have a 10th of a millimeter on the electric violin that's perfectly in tune. The frets just serve as like a physical reference point. If I'm playing live and I can't hear myself, then I can see and feel where the notes are supposed to go. Because again, on the violin, you can put your finger anywhere, and not if you can't hear yourself you don't know if that's in tune or not. You're constantly listening and adjusting to make sure everything is perfectly intonated.

Nick VinZant 11:35

So what makes a really like somebody like yourself, what makes a good violinist really good

Mia Asano 11:42

for me personally, I judge it more based on did you make me feel something with what you just played? And that's the mark of like a really good violinist for me.

Nick VinZant 11:49

When people kind of do that when they put their own kind of signature on it. Right? Like can people like myself hear the difference? Or is it mainly just people like you that will be able to hear the difference?

Mia Asano 12:00

Um, I think a trained violinist will be able to hear the difference because again, there's typically a an ideal way to play something. But the thing is, everyone has a different view of the right way to play a piece. Like, for example, kind of the composer that is highly revered for violinist is Bach. Because he wrote these incredible Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin that are so difficult. And to play them beautifully is a really incredible, they're they're meant to be played in churches, like it's a very, like, sacred piece of music for you to be able to play as a violinist. It's also really hard to play it well. And every single violinist in the world has a different idea of like the correct and proper way to play it. So what I learned is you can't really please everyone. I also learned from a teacher of mine, that if I'm going to go play violin for like an audition for an orchestra, and I go and playing Bach, chances are the way that I've interpreted it is not gonna be the same as the way that the auditioner has interpreted

Nick VinZant 13:03

it, the music that your own music now, is that something that you've written? Or is that more of a stylistic interpretation of things?

Mia Asano 13:10

It's both so for my own music, because yeah, what I mostly do nowadays, is alternative contemporary styles of music. So, again, pop rock, electronic, Celtic music, I go to the Berklee College of Music. So I've been studying jazz and r&b. There's all these different other styles of music that the violin is capable of. And what I mostly do is, well, I released original music, and I do write and release original music. So I actually just put out a single, and it's called lunar. And it's an kind of a pop electronic, violin track, but I co wrote it with a professor of mine, Jason attic, who's an incredible jazz violinist. So with him, we kind of put a jazzy bluesy spin on parts of it while still collaborating with some electronic producers to make it very, like pop electronic. So that's kind of the style of music I'm trying to go in. But then on my social media, so what happened is about a year ago, I sort of accidentally had some videos go viral on Tik Tok and Instagram. And that was me kind of just doing pop covers, covering different like songs that were trending. And there was a pretty big public reaction to it. People really enjoyed it. It really liked the electric violin that I was playing on. So a lot of what I do nowadays is playing covers and short, just short, fun daily videos that I put out, just for fun.

Nick VinZant 14:40

Were you surprised by the reaction that you had? Because I saw some stuff? It was like 10 Let's call it 20 million, whatever however many millions it is but were you surprised by people's reaction to

Mia Asano 14:51

it? Um, I was I was I was surprised. I'll be honest, because what ended up happening I was going through kind of a period of calm questioning myself musically and I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome. This was kind of like in the middle of the pandemic, when it was like that dark time when everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like, Will this be over and I was definitely feeling that. So just to kind of bring myself out of my slump and to try to come back to play music that I feel felt passionate about. I started posting videos, kind of secretly on on Tik Tok. You know, I didn't know much about the platform. I just kind of woke up one day and I had this idea to, I was like, Okay, there's all these trends that go around on Tik Tok. What if I did those, those trending things, but as electric violin covers, so I started doing it, I'm not really expecting anything to happen. Like, obviously, it'd be nice to have your video go viral. But I wasn't really like setting out like, Oh, I'm going to try to get Tik Tok famous. What ended up happening though, is because I got really clear on, I want to be authentically myself, I want to help people and make people happy, I want to. And then I've been honing my video editing skills and my audio editing skills throughout the pandemic. So all of that kind of combined into this perfect storm, where within a week of me posting every day on the app, I posted this one video, just totally not expecting anything to happen. I threw it together in like a half hour just like threw it up on the internet. And I went to the store with a friend. And as I'm leaving the store, I look in the video had 36,000 views. And I was like oh my gosh, and it kept climbing and climbing. And by the end of the night, it had 2 million views. And I woke up the next morning with 100,000 followers and I was at the grocery store and I started crying. I was like how I was not expecting that. I couldn't believe that it happened literally overnight. He there was like a really positive response to it. And that was so meaningful to me because again, I'm coming off of months of feeling so uninspired and sad and and feeling lost musically.

Nick VinZant 16:56

Are you ready for some listener? Some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, let's do it. hardest song to play,

Mia Asano 17:04

hardest song to play? The hardest song to play? I think that's really subjective. It depends on the person's abilities. That being said, I think any Paganini is extremely difficult. He's this incredible composer who wrote these caprices, like to be a violinist that can play a Paganini Caprice is very, very impressive. And then any of like the bigger name of violin concertos, I would say are very difficult.

Nick VinZant 17:31

Have you ever had a violin related injury?

Mia Asano 17:35

Yes, I have had many violin related injuries. I was in an orchestra in high school. And we were rehearsing, I think, to play at like Carnegie Hall, like, which was a very cool experience. But we were having these like really long, intense rehearsals. And I it was like 17 hours over the course of two days. And I remember not knowing at the time I was young, I didn't know how to warm up and stretch before you played. I didn't know the importance of that. And because it was so intense, and I was playing for so long. And I didn't have the best posture. I've learned since then. But I my shoulder started hurting. And then for the next few years, every time I would play my shoulder would hurt my left shoulder. So finally in college, I went into the physical therapist at my school and I was like, Hey, I've had the shoulder pain for the last four years. Can you help me and I went to a sports doctor and they diagnosed it as coracoid impingement. And then throughout the course of that year, I also developed tendinitis in my hands and forearms, and a lot of musicians. A lot of violinists that I know have these types of injuries just from it's called an overuse injury. Because, again, there are people that are practicing eight or nine hours a day, so like of course, you're going to overuse it at some point.

Nick VinZant 18:57

So then, is the violin the most dangerous instrument?

Mia Asano 19:02

Well, any instrument any instrumentalists can injure themselves like pianists, you know, guitar, like all of the ins I don't know a single I have a friend from high school who was an incredible, who is an incredible percussion player. And, you know, they were playing a marimba so much that they ended up with these forearm injuries. So it's not just violin it's, they call us small muscle athletes. So you know, you have your big muscle athletes, like a soccer player or football player. Musicians like technically, according to the sports doctors that I've talked to, that's why I had to go to a sports doctor. You know, we're exercising these small muscles in our hands and our fingers and our neck and our shoulders. Depending on the answer like drummers are using their legs. Yeah. So anyone is really there's potential for injury for anyone if you don't know the right types of if you don't have to take care of your body. And if you're overdoing it, and unfortunately, a lot of young people because we're not taught how to take care of ourselves. We're just taught, practice a lot and get better. Do

Nick VinZant 20:04

people go nuts driving the playing the violin? Like, I feel like it's the kind of thing that you could you would have to be like so obsessed with? Kind of like, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Black Swan or something like that, yes, the pressure and all that stuff, like, Does that happen to people,

Mia Asano 20:19

um, I wouldn't specifically say like, go nuts. But, um, there's a lot of burnout, that I also have experienced at times, there is a lot of pressure because everyone's kind of competing for similar jobs because this, it's dependent on the person, but a lot of the jobs for violinists are playing in an orchestra, for example, and there's only a certain number of seats in that orchestra. And a lot of those people in the orchestra have kind of a almost like permanent position, it's very hard to get a job in those settings, unless you're really, really good. And to be really, really good, you need to practice really, really hard. And so, you know, people are competing for limited seats, there's very limited, limited jobs available. And so as a result, it can be discouraging for some people. For other people, it's the thing that they want to do the most, and they love it the most, and nothing will deter them from that. And I think for any musician, like, that's what it takes to make it far as a musician is you have to have that internal drive and passion where it's almost like, you can't do anything else, like you have to do this. And then it's worth it. It's worth it to put all that time and energy into it. Like they say, life is suffering. So what you should, you should need to find the thing that it's worth suffering for him.

Nick VinZant 21:41

Most expensive violin you've ever played?

Mia Asano 21:45

Oh, no, um, the most expensive one I've ever played is definitely like, I don't think they let me touch one of the million dollar ones. But they can get that expensive. I've played ones in the, like 50 to $100,000 range, but just like what I'm out of violin shop, like, and they have one there and they let me touch it, you know, like, and but that is the range of a lot of violence. A lot of higher end violins, they can get that expensive. They can range from like $200 that you can buy, like online, from there all the way to millions of dollars and bows to like a violin bow like they can get up to like $200,000. Like, they're there, they can be very excited. I know, it just looks like a stick. But it's a really, really important stick. And some of them are made from like this extinct Brazilian tree wood and there's like, and it's like the best thing that you can get. And so it gets really rare. And so, you know, the prices can really vary on different instruments.

Nick VinZant 22:46

Is it rare? Because it I mean, is that expensive? Because it's rare? Or is it that expensive? Because like, oh, that really is a better violin.

Mia Asano 22:55

Um, it's both. I think there's definitely like, like with anything like with fashion or business, whatever, like brand value is a thing. And there's some incredible violin makers from hundreds and hundreds of years ago that made these pieces of art that are just the most incredible, incredibly intricately crafted instruments that are not only just better, but then because like Stradivarius is probably the most commonly known violin maker. So to play on a Stradivarius violin, you know, it's it's very high quality. Also, it's really rare because obviously Stradivarius is not around anymore.

Nick VinZant 23:29

coolest place you've ever played.

Mia Asano 23:32

Um, there's a couple answers to that. One of them, as I mentioned before, was Carnegie Hall. I toured there with with an orchestra. And it was, it was amazing. Definitely a life changing experience, because it's seen as such a important and incredible venue. But then I've gotten to play some really fun events at different, like nightclubs, and I played at the House of Blues in Boston. And that was really fun. It was that was a really, really fun experience. But definitely, probably Carnegie Hall was my favorite,

Nick VinZant 24:06

best violin related joke.

Mia Asano 24:10

Oh, no. Um, I mean, okay. It's like a thing in orchestras, where, like, we the instruments will make fun of each other. So like, the poor violas and a viola is like a violin. But the tone is a little deeper, the instruments usually bigger, and the strings are different instead of a DG, it's a DGC. So in an orchestra, you have your first violins sitting next to them or the second violence. Then you have the violas and the next level of the cellos. Right. And so all the instruments will kind of give each other a hard time and people will make specifically they'll make jokes about the viola and then the violas will fire back with jokes about the violins, but like, it'll be really funny, like funny but also kind of like, they'll they'll try to insult each other like, oh, like, what's the best best note you can hear or the best sound that you can make from a violin? The sound of it hitting a trash can or something like that. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 25:03

Do you check your VAT? When you fly? Do you check your violin and carry on? Or do you bring it with you? Or why do you check your violin? Or do you bring it with you

Mia Asano 25:13

never, ever, ever check your violin because the violin is so delicate that like even when the weather changes, my violin will freak out. And also, as you now know, violins can get pretty expensive. So I'm not trying to replace my violin every time I check it, and it gets broken. So because the air pressure is changing, and stuff like that, so then there's been a bunch of violinists who have tried to get on airplanes. And sometimes I've heard horror stories about the airline trying to force them to check the violin, and you can't because it'll, it'll break it. I feel really bad for cello players, though, what they have to do is either one of my roommates is a cellist and he will either like take the risk and check the cello but put it in like this really intense like case with all this padding in it and just like take the risk or cellist will have to buy a second plane ticket for their cello. And I have some friends that have done it. My brother's a cellist. So if he were to travel with his cello, he would have to buy a second plane ticket and just sit next to it on the flight. And, and yeah,

Nick VinZant 26:21

that's got to be a weird feeling. Yeah, that's got to be strange. Like, sitting here with my cello. Having like, the cello is just in the middle seat. Not only

Mia Asano 26:34

do you have to do this thing, man, like no, this is this child. You got to put it in its seat belt, Jada, offered a drink. It's it's a it is a wrapper of the plane.

Nick VinZant 26:46

Yeah. It is. You paid for the ticket? You better get those snacks for it. Yeah, since

Mia Asano 26:51

but like, yeah, that would demand it. A lot of people will rent instruments and whatever city they're in. Or like for tours and stuff, even if people are flying. Sometimes they'll have like a driver drive all the instruments to the next location. Like it depends, like people find ways around it. But I think like traveling with your instrument is the best way if you can afford it, like obviously, it's a huge expense. But then you're not playing an unfamiliar instrument where you go, but like my high school orchestra, we toured Europe once and went to Austria. And we're playing there and we couldn't bring our cello cello was on the plane. So we just rented cellos when we were there. And the cellist just had to kind of figure out the bass players to they just had to figure it out when they were there. And there was okay.

Nick VinZant 27:32

Let's see, did you just get a flute? Right? What's the little tiny one? Like the piccolo? Yeah, just get? Yeah, put that thing in your pocket. Um, so you've said some words that I didn't definitely recognize. Best piece of violin lingo.

Mia Asano 27:47

Best piece of violin lingo. There's so much it's so cool. And that's the thing is I've been exposed to like German and Italian and sometimes Spanish, because there's all these different in the music does all these different markings, and you got to learn what they mean. So let's see, a lot of people will ask me, Can you play your violin without a bow? And that's actually one of my most viral videos, was me answering that question? And the answer is, yes, you just pluck the string with your finger and it's called pizzicato. So, or for short pits. I like that one a lot. There's I like ricochet. That's where you kind of bounce your ball on the strings. But every time the ball bounces, you play a note. So sounds really cool. I like glissando, that's when you slide into a note. And I do that all the time. There's, I mean, there's so many I could just go on and on and on.

Nick VinZant 28:41

Oh, those are good one. Now is the do is your new album out now? Yeah,

Mia Asano 28:48

um, then the single is out, I'm in the process of writing the album. But the single, I just dropped it on October 20. So it's been out for a couple months now. And people have been really supportive of it. It's on all streaming platforms. And it's also I did a music video in a laser light studio. And that's up on YouTube. So I'm really excited about it.

Nick VinZant 29:08

That's pretty much all the questions that I have, is there anything that you think that we missed or anything like that?

Mia Asano 29:15

No. The last thing I want to say though, is I appreciate when people are open minded about what the violin is capable of. And that's my passion in life is showing people that the violin can break a lot of boundaries and isn't, doesn't need to be intended for just one style or another. You know, there's so many capabilities and the most important thing is to find what speaks to you and pursue that and find what makes you happy. Because there's space for everyone to and if everyone's doing the same thing, then collectively, we can all support each other and that's the best thing we can do.

Bodyflier Inka Cagnasso

Inka Cagnasso spends her life in the air. Sometimes she has a parachute, sometimes she doesn’t. We talk Bodyflying, the awesome power of wind tunnels and the beauty of flight. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Places You Don’t Want to Be Stranded.

Inka Cagnasso: 01:31ish

Pointless: 27:51

Top 5: 47:26

https://www.instagram.com/inkacagnasso (Inka Cagnasso Instagram)

Interview with Bodyflier Inka Cagnasso

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, body flying, and getting stranded,

Inka Cagnasso 0:22

sometimes in the middle of flight, I kind of catch myself thinking like, This is so insane that this is actually possible that I can just be airborne here and, and fly, which is something that so many people dream off. I've been knocked out once in freefall. But I kind of I was like space off for a moment, I remember opening my eyes realizing that no one's there. And I just like, I wish that I could still get the experience that I could walk into a wind tunnel and see someone fly for the first time without understanding that at all, because he must be insane to watch.

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest spends her life flying. Sometimes she has a parachute. Sometimes she doesn't. This is body flyer. Inka can Jaso real quick, when we talk about body flying, that can be done both jumping out of an airplane and in a wind tunnel. And during this conversation we kind of switch back and forth between those. So I just wanted to clarify real quick what is body flying

Inka Cagnasso 1:31

buddy flying the term good refer to a few different things. But basically you're maneuvering and airflow or freefall with your buddy. Like you end up moving from place to another or doing moves like flips or, or something like this. Wow, did

Nick VinZant 1:47

you get into it?

Inka Cagnasso 1:48

I started skydiving first. I really liked it. But it wasn't really like I didn't fall in love with it until I went for the wind tunnel which is like a something that we use as a tool for skydivers really often to improve your freefall skills. And I'm a dancer from my background. And when I got into the winter, I was like alright, this suddenly makes sense. Like this is kind of like a new type of a dance studio dance floor like, whereas before I could do a few scabs a day, get a few minutes of freefall, maybe learn a little bit of something new. Suddenly good actually start training and improving my freefall skills and the body flying skills. So I've never skydive because I'm an adrenaline junkie, I've skydive because I was intrigued by the fact that I can use my body and challenge my body in such a new different way. It's funny, because I've flown for a long time. And I obviously it's kind of like, almost everyday life thing for me now. But sometimes in the middle of flight, I kind of catch myself thinking like, This is so insane that this is actually possible that I can just be airborne here in this in this weird little tunnel. And, and fly, which is something that so many people dream off. I think my favorite part of it is that it gives me this insane feeling of presence. And then you very rarely get to do something where you're so I mean, I guess watersports, but like that you're so connected to an element. And through that, so connected to body,

Nick VinZant 3:23

when you're doing it, what's the difference versus doing it in the tunnel versus kind of doing it outside,

Inka Cagnasso 3:28

we always move towards where we heavy add like it's all about center of gravity and where we shift our weight. But now, it is two completely different sports. Because in one of them, I jump out of an airplane and the risks are different. And I do need to take other things into consideration than just how my body is connected to the airflow. And then in the wind tunnel, it's so much more about just there. And the technical performance side of things. Because I don't have to worry about my parachute. I don't have to worry about the other fliers in freefall. I don't have to think of this kind of stuff. And and also the risks are so different.

Nick VinZant 4:10

Is it one of those situations, and I'll use an example that I'm familiar with. Right? Like I used to do a lot of rock climbing and rock climbing in the gym is fun. It's safer. It's great practice, but like the real thing is outside. Is it the same kind of thing like the people who are in the sport, do they feel the same way?

Inka Cagnasso 4:32

Some people do. But again, it depends on what you're interested in. Because now if you're adrenaline driven when you're skydiving and looking for that adventurous side of it, you're most likely going to prefer skydiving over WinToFlash for me, because I'm so driven by the athletic side of it, I can actually push myself more in the winter. So for me like it's that's why I'm born went on girl that I am a skydiver. I do both. I love both. But I would say I end up doing more complicated things in terms of body flying, when I'm in the window,

Nick VinZant 5:13

what makes you good at it right? Is it the body awareness? Is it just pure strength, like what makes you good at it?

Inka Cagnasso 5:21

There is definitely some presets, like my dancing background really helped me to move towards what I do nowadays, mainly, which is called freestyle. If you watch a freestyle fly, it looks kind of like dance, dancing, acrobatic moves. But I don't think I've done a lot of sports in my life. And I've never really been the most talented person. But when I was really into something, I always been the most like the hardest worker, right? So because I loved it so much, when I started playing in a tunnel, like I've really put all my energy and time and effort into it. And I did a lot of work outside of the tunnel, not just the flying time itself to get better. And I watched a lot of videos, and I was living and breathing in the things to do outside, like, for my discipline, you need to be strong, and you need to be flexible, and you need to have strength within the flexibility. And now when we get into the airflow, and there's all these different directions and dimensions that we haven't tried before, all of that becomes a lot more complicated, because this

Nick VinZant 6:30

is a safe idea. Like is it safe, safe? Like, should we be doing this

Inka Cagnasso 6:36

in the tunnel, or in this game?

Nick VinZant 6:39

The tunnel seems perfectly safe, right? So I would guess of the sky.

Inka Cagnasso 6:43

You can get hurt in a tunnel too. But it's mainly like you're gonna hit the walls of the net. And it's kind of synchronous stuff. If you're training something like trampolines, or like sometimes you just gonna Yeah, but that's about it. In the sky, we can build a lot more speed. And often, I feel like if you're not a skydiver, you're going to be concerned about like, well is the pass you can open. Like, that's what you're going to be worried about. What I would be worried about when I fly with other people is gliding to with the other people. Because we move fast, right? And if we have opposite forces, you can actually hit each other in freefall with like, a lot of power. And it is not a moment when you want to get hurt or unconscious or something like that. So yeah, there's a lot of accidents that do happen during the freefall time and you need to not only be capable of, you know, flying the things you want to fly, but there's also a bunch of rules about like, how can you how are you allowed to approach formation? How do we break off from the formation at the end of the skydive before we pull to just make it safer?

Nick VinZant 7:47

Have you had any close calls?

Inka Cagnasso 7:49

I've been knocked out once in freefall, which Yeah, this was a long time ago. And there was just a miscommunication. So again, like you usually plan the jump beforehand, you know, where you supposed to be going, what you're doing, who are you looking at? Where are the other people in that formation in relation to you? And yet, something just kind of happened? Mid jump, and it was this huge Norwegian dude who flew into me and kicked me in the head. I had Sonny's on under my helmet. The helmet has like a visor but the visor basically slammed the the Sonny's and the Sonny's broke. So I was pretty lucky that I didn't hurt my my iron. Yeah, where's but I kind of I was like space off for a moment. I remember opening my eyes realizing that no one's there. And I just like, went and pulled my parachute and then figured out what had happened. But I've definitely seen a lot of stuff. And it is risky. And you should never forget. That is. I am. I've been jumping for a long time. But I would consider myself a pretty conservative skydiver because the way I see it is that if I'm doubting if I should go for the next jump, whether it feels like too crazy of a plan for the skydive or the weather conditions are tricky, or I'm tired, and I don't feel like focus no matter what the reason is why I'm doubting myself. I already know that I shouldn't go good. And the worst case scenario is like I'm going to lose that one skydive if I don't go and jump. But if I do go worst case scenario is that it could be my last skydive. And if I already knew that there was a reason why I shouldn't go and jump in. It's really dumb to just not respect the dangers of it. That's how I see it.

Nick VinZant 9:38

Obviously, like, I'm not entrenched in the sport, I only, you know, see the negative headlines every time. Something happens to a skydiver. Are people pushing it too much? Or do we just hear kind of about the incidents that happen? Occasionally.

Inka Cagnasso 9:57

You just hear about the incidents because as a sport It's not really like a large audience sport. So people, you would never see headlines that have anything to do with anything else than accidents. It's probably more dangerous for you to drive to work than it is for me to skydive,

Nick VinZant 10:14

now is his body flying completely different than Wingsuit Flying,

Inka Cagnasso 10:19

I don't base jump, which is when you're jumping off an object, right? However, you can fly wingsuits out of the plane too. Because often people mix like BASE jumping and wings to fly, they're not one thing, there's, you know, when your wingsuit and you're wearing this suit, that adds a lot of surface area to your wing to your body. And then now, that's what you controlling. So obviously has a lot to do with body control, because it's still your body that's moving the fabric, but it's also like the pressure of the air with the fabric that you need to take into consideration. It definitely helps if you have good foundation and just flying your body before you put a wingsuit on, it can get a little bit sketchy if you don't know how you're doing.

Nick VinZant 11:11

That's seems like something that you would want to double check on, you know, you see the YouTube videos and things like that. And the thing that I always wonder about it is, is it an inherently dangerous thing? Or are people making it dangerous, by like pushing that edge and I'm going to go as close to the ground or as close to the rocker body fly as far as I possibly can

Inka Cagnasso 11:31

see, because that's like now we can talk about two kinds of accidents is like is the accidents that are actually an accident, right? So something that happened that just it was just bad luck, which you know, that can happen in any that's the car crashes too. But then it's like if you if you get wasted and you jump in your car and you start driving like you're pushing your limits now like you're pushing your your luck with that. So it would be the same with flying. A lot of accidents happen, because we need more, we want to go a little bit further, we want to try new things. However, most people that do that kind of stuff that I know, those people are willing to take the risk. So they understand the situation, they know that they're going a little bit too far. And they can have that conversation before they jump off a cliff that this, this might be it. There's a big chance that this can go wrong. I know that I have zero margin of error, and they're fine with that. Again, I think that's when you're way more adrenaline driven. So that's not that's not my cup of tea. I think it's insane what people can do when it gets to that side of the sport, but it's different things that drives me or interests me

Nick VinZant 12:55

is the wind tunnel aspect of it is that relatively new.

Inka Cagnasso 12:58

I've been flying for 10 years now. And within that time, like there was like only a handful of tunnels around the world and now there's one in every city. So it's definitely getting bigger and bigger. There's more and more skydivers of flying and wind tunnels. There's a lot more non skydivers fly in the wind tunnels. And this has been a huge change because before like when I started like the only people that would put their money into flying or skydivers that just wanted to become better skydivers. And now there's like a whole generation of kids, for example, that they don't even necessarily ever want to skydive.

Nick VinZant 13:36

So how fast is the wind going?

Inka Cagnasso 13:38

Ah, I can go to like I'm in kilometres 300 ks an hour?

Nick VinZant 13:45

Depends 100 sec. 150 160. Something like that a little bit less? Maybe?

Inka Cagnasso 13:50

No, I think a little bit more. But yeah, it is more. Yeah, you're right, you're right. Basically, you can adjust the wind speed.

Nick VinZant 13:57

Have you ever just cranked it all the way up to see what's going to happen? Yep,

Inka Cagnasso 14:00

yep. Most of the tunnels don't really like they don't have the kind of power that it would be impossible to fly in it. But yeah, for sure if you're going to jump in now with no experience and we talked tarp it out like I don't know if you're gonna come out alive like the wind. The power of the wind is crazy. Like you would not assume it because like when you watch experience fly or fly, you don't really you just don't see it and we were tight outfits. So there's no movement of material or anything like that. So you just it looks like I said it looks like floating. But then I don't know if I would jump into the airflow in a baggy t shirt. You would go like Oh, wow, like that's that's crazy how much the wind is actually throwing me at the t shirt.

Nick VinZant 14:49

Can I could I be seven foot 350 and be an excel at this sport or do I have to be like five 400 pounds.

Inka Cagnasso 14:57

So you can learn do all the same stuff, even if you're a bigger person. But for some things, like you're gonna move faster in the airflow when you're a little bit lighter, right? Because it's just, it can just, it's kind of like if you have an engine in a car, and then depending on how was the car weighs, right? Exactly. So if it's a lighter car, you can drive faster with the same engine.

Nick VinZant 15:26

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Inka Cagnasso 15:30

I hope so.

Nick VinZant 15:32

I don't know if this applies necessarily. But how far can you go?

Inka Cagnasso 15:36

But it obviously depends on a Oh, hi, do I exit from a plane? Because then I have like, the more time I have the further I can travel. But you can get a pretty good glide ratio out of it. Like, like I said, you're looking down, you're looking at a map, and you can see yourself clearly moving for, for a few miles. That's a wingsuit. You can move a lot.

Nick VinZant 16:00

Yeah, I would imagine like how high are you usually jumping from?

Inka Cagnasso 16:05

Like 13,013, five,

Nick VinZant 16:08

Wow, you really could go could you go higher is that just but that's just generally like, that's where you're gonna do it from.

Inka Cagnasso 16:13

So from 15, we still jump without additional oxygen. If you go higher than that, or if you spend a long time around that altitude, like you need to have oxygen in the plane. So the highest jumps that we do, and like learning environments in normal jumping would be 18,000 feet. And then for like that, and bit of the plane ride be regrade some oxygen

Nick VinZant 16:42

hardest move to do.

Inka Cagnasso 16:46

So there is my nemesis move is something that's a very typical move. In the Freestyle World. It's a flip twist, which you would see on trampolines or any diving really. But when it starts getting into multiple rotations, all of that, it's just something that I've had a hard time with. And in the tunnel we spoke of, it's not really that dangerous, but it is scary, because it's a small closed space, and the walls are really close. And then sometimes in these kind of moves, like the flip twist, like you can create a drive into any direction. And you just need to hope that either you're gonna be able to stop it, or the instructor who's taking care of your safety, they're standing at the door, it's gonna be able to stop it before you smash the wall.

Nick VinZant 17:38

Because you're gonna catch it, it's gonna shoot you one way or another. Yeah. And then like for

Inka Cagnasso 17:41

your own orientation, and knowing where you're at, they can be very confusing when you start adding rotations.

Nick VinZant 17:49

Two part question, I guess, is it a growing sport? And do you think it could ever become mainstream.

Inka Cagnasso 17:57

Um, it is a growing sport, it definitely is like both like within the sport we're growing. But also, I think that external interest towards our sport is growing. So within the time that I've been in the sport, like, it was kind of, we didn't, you didn't get asked to perform to all these like, like, I don't know, live events, or movies, or music videos, or commercials or whatever it was, as much as that happens now, when that kind of interest is there. However, I get a lot of contacts from all these kind of projects, and a very teeny tiny bit of that ends up actually happening. And it's usually due to the limitations, like it's hard to make it available for big audiences. Because it is not something that you can there is these winter laws that you can move around, but they're open air and they're a little bit like smaller and less powerful. So that's a huge, huge thing of it. And before that problem is solved, I cannot really see the sport growing, because you need the big audiences to be able to grow a sport.

Nick VinZant 19:13

Yeah, that is kind of limiting. Right. It's not like you can

Inka Cagnasso 19:17

Yeah, and that was kind of the main problem that I ended up facing. When I get asked it was like, Hey, we have this event like could you please come up before I'm here? And then they like bring your tunnel? Like it's not really something I can just like, like playing Wait me. It is a huge construction. It will take a few years to put one together.

Nick VinZant 19:37

It's yeah, isn't it a race isn't always amazing to me the things that people think before they actually like think about something like what do you mean, just bring the big fan, bring the big fan roll out there?

Inka Cagnasso 19:48

Well, my favorite actually has been a situation where I was asked to come and perform in a TV show in Georgia, the country Georgia. Yeah, yeah.

Nick VinZant 19:59

And today Gotta say it like, it's just Georgia. Like, no,

Inka Cagnasso 20:02

it was so funny as we're having a long conversation about, like the details of it and like, When am I gonna come? What am I going to perform? And they had seen my videos. And then at the end of it, I'm like, Well, what can a wind tunnel? Do you guys have there? And they're like, why is that? I'm like, I cannot actually fly like, I do need a little bit of help for that part. So yeah, that was the end of that.

Nick VinZant 20:29

I can just imagine like you emailing them or telling them that and then the person you are corresponding with then like telling their boss and the whole room of them being confused. Like why? Talking about? Yeah, what is she? What does she mean? She needs a wind tunnel? Should you have won America's Got Talent?

Inka Cagnasso 20:54

Question I think if I should have wanted, I probably would have, right?

Nick VinZant 20:59

What a great diplomatic answer.

Inka Cagnasso 21:03

I never, I never really went there for for me, it was just a great opportunity to be able to bring my sport out there. So I didn't have any form of expectation that it would get somewhere. And that's what

Nick VinZant 21:18

I'll tell you this when somebody suggested this topic to us. And then I looked you up and I saw that video was like, Holy crap. That's really, that's impressive.

Inka Cagnasso 21:29

Right? It's pretty surreal when you see it, like, especially if you don't know anything about the sport. If you've never like flown a tunnel, or you, SK sun or you've never skydived or didn't know that there's freefall, you know that we do something in freefall and skydiving because often we just see the canopies. And then I wish that I could still get the experience that I could walk into wind tunnel and see someone fly for the first time without understanding that at all, because it must be insane to watch.

Nick VinZant 21:57

Best skydiving or body flying seen in a movie or TV show?

Inka Cagnasso 22:02

Oh, no. I have to I don't I'm not gonna name any because I, in general, they're really painful to watch. Most of them are just not realistic. Like, there's more and more movies that they're actually using proper, like stunt fliers and it's done actually skydiving and not like, I don't know. But that freefall part takes way too long. And there's all these they have weird equipment on and and talking to each other in freefall and things like that I like that's just that's not true, it doesn't happen like that. You watch the landings, and it's all like fake. So a lot of that is kind of painful to watch,

Nick VinZant 22:45

you're not talking about Point Break, or you better not be bad mouthing the show.

Inka Cagnasso 22:51

But something that's really cool about windtunnel flying actually, and this is what I've done a little bit is that you don't have to use it for filming a skydive scene. So what I've actually done is like motion capture, but for fighting scenes, because you can do so many crazy things in the airflow that are really hard to actually shoot with, like traditional stump means. Because like, I remember the first time that I was working for mocha project, and they asked me like, can you do two flips in a row. And like what I can do, I can do 200 If you want me to, like, I can just keep going. I could walk on the walls like I can, all those things where you seen the movies, when people I like running on the wall or running up the wall and throwing flips out of it. Like for me that's like, super easy, and effortless to do. And then if you think of the setup that you would have to have to film it with normal stuff mean so I, I hope fingers crossed, because I love working like this, that there's gonna be more of this kind of use for flying in movies.

Nick VinZant 23:56

Best piece of body flying lingo, do you think that anyone will ever be able to jump out of a plane? And just land on the ground?

Inka Cagnasso 24:03

Depends on what you jump out of the plane with, like, without, without a parachute, but still. Yes, someone will do it eventually with like, a wingsuit or something like this. I mean, you've seen the the jet man stuff, for example. And they're able to take off all of that, but even with wingsuits like people are able to basically like because we never go up in freefall. Right? Right. If we could go up that means that we could land without a parachute. But even with some of the wingsuits like people are able to basically slow down their flow rate so much that they they're going to zero. So yeah, it will happen. It's just a matter of time and someone deciding to make the commitments.

Nick VinZant 24:54

What Yes, that's the hard part. Right? Yeah. What's what's kind of like what's the reason that people Can't do it right now they're falling too fat, like you can't slow down enough before hitting the ground.

Inka Cagnasso 25:06

Yeah, exactly that would be the issue

Nick VinZant 25:10

is that the downward trajectory, or the outward trajectory.

Inka Cagnasso 25:17

Because what we actually do under canopy is that we do something and we call it like a turning the canopy for the landing. So we do it turn. And we pick up a little bit more speed from that turn because we start diving, like what our canopy and then at the bottom of that turn, we basically start translating that dive into forward speed. And this is a very comfortable way of landing. Like, this is what we actually trying to do. So instead of like us moving down and landing from that downward energy, we're trying to move forward. So yeah, it's definitely the going down bid that needs to be controlled.

Nick VinZant 25:57

That's one of those things, it doesn't seem like you're getting a second chance, right? Like, what's the future of it?

Inka Cagnasso 26:02

You know, within the sport, there's a lot of talk about, we tried to get to the Olympics and all of this, and there's like big dreams, I'm sure it's gonna happen at some point that are not sure that's going to happen. At some point, I'm sure that we're gonna grow. But I think there's a lot of steps to take before something like this. It is a small sport. But I think we have a good community win competitions, and all of that that might be interesting to the bigger audience in the future. But I think the future is in all of these things that I've been talking about, like kinda everything that has entertainment value, I think that's going to be like flying is going to be more attractive to the bigger audience as a form of entertainment, that is as a competition. Because it's confusing to watch right now. Like, if you go and like you don't know what you're looking at, you're watching the competition. Yeah, like, oh, well, they're flying, but like, you cannot really grasp a lot of it. But you don't need to know how to dance to be able to appreciate a dance performance, or you don't need to be able to sing to be able to, you know, listen to that and and enjoy it, then hopefully through that, then slowly, the interests of the sport side of flying is going to grow as well.

Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace

What do the things you buy really say about you? And how are companies using that to get you to spend more than you might want. Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace joins us to explain the growing psychology behind consumer culture. We talk shopping display secrets, fast fashion, conscious consumerism and the subtle messages major brands are sending. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Annoying Public Behaviors.

Professor Sarah Grace: 01:48

Pointless: 29:34

Top 5 Public Annoyances: 43:20

https://www.tiktok.com/@profsarahgrace (Prof. Sarah Grace TikTok)

http://sarahcgrace.com (Prof. Sarah Grace Website)

Interview with Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, shopping secrets, and public annoyances,

Professor Sarah Grace 0:22

culture, in a way has been replaced by consumer culture. Because the things that shaped us, a lot of what is around us is defined by material objects that we buy, what is XYZ company really selling, you know, kind of romanticizes you and it gets you out of your rational, unreflective mind. And it kind of takes you like to this dreamy state where you might make an irrational decision and spend way more than you thought you were going to make. If you had one of those cars that would say a few different things about you. One, that you're an early adopter of trends, you are forward thinking and innovative, but you also care what people think about you.

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, or leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So we've all heard the sayings about how you are your stuff, you are the things that you buy. But why do you buy the things that you buy? Our first guest is an expert in the psychological ways that brands used to try and get you to buy their stuff. And what the stuff that you buy really says about you. This is consumer culture expert, Professor Sarah Grace. So what is consumer culture really

Professor Sarah Grace 1:50

hard to explain, but culture is something that is around us no matter where we are. And it's one of those things that's often unreflected on, but it influences so many aspects of our life. Well, in our modern worlds, culture, in a way has been replaced by consumer culture. Because the things that shape us, it's not just values, it's not just music, it's not just where we go to church, or if we go to church, a lot of what is around us is defined by material objects that we buy, and things that are marketed towards us. So consumer culture is this thing that we all navigate daily, because every day we wake up, and we try to decide, I'm going to wear this and present myself to the world this way, I'm going to pull out this brand of computer and it's going to have these different stickers on it to communicate something both to myself about myself, but also to others about who I am. And a lot of times our identity and our values and the way that we kind of get by in this world, we navigate through the help of consumer objects.

Nick VinZant 3:01

But it's it's true in the sense that right like we kind of our our stuff, like you could look at the things that I wear and that I own in my car and pretty much get a really good idea of exactly who I am. Is there is there a point like looking back in history where you can identify like, this is where that really changed. And now you are your stuff.

Professor Sarah Grace 3:23

Even back in the Middle Ages, there were gilts of people who grouped together based off of their trade. And different guilds were identified by their clothing, or what they wore, or even think about royal royalty, they were certain colors. And so you could identify who was of different social standings based off of their objects that they adorned on their body. And they actually prevented people who are peasants or lower levels than them from being able to wear certain colors or wear certain things. So actually, this idea, and it goes back to the ancient Romans and Greeks, too.

Nick VinZant 4:00

So like how are companies trying to get us to buy stuff we don't need.

Professor Sarah Grace 4:05

So if you think about basic economics, there's supply and there's demand. So the way that you asked your question assumes that there is more supply than demand. And companies are trying to push things on consumers that they don't want. And historically, like when sales and marketing originated in the early 1900s. That is how a lot of companies operated as they would like create a ton of this type of vacuum and they would have door to door salesmen. And they would have people go out and try to sell this thing that they already created. Well in the 50s 60s 70s that started to switch and marketers really started focusing on well what do consumers want and started creating things, less of a push system and more of a pool system so started creating things based off of what consumers either said they want one and versus via research and focus groups and those sorts of things. Or based off of what consumers were actually buying, so they might have looked at point of sale data, which is a technology that was introduced in the mid century. And they might have said, well, consumers are buying a lot of cans, pineapple. Let's make more of that. And let's make more varieties of that. So the thinking around our companies pushing us things versus are we demanding things and they're responding to that, that desire, the shifting, and that has changed. So I think it's a little bit of both. But for companies to grow, they have to create something new, too, so that consumers will want to replace the things that they already have with those new things. And so that's where we get trend cycles in the marketplace. And the easiest industry to see this in is with fashion. So fashion trend cycles are a beautiful example. They've gotten really short in the last few years. Whereas people used to buy a new dress, maybe once a year, and then they would buy another new dress next year. And they would keep those in their wardrobe for years and years and years and repair them over time as they wore out. Now, the trend cycling what is in fashion, or what is on trend, has shortens. And so you as a consumer feel like I need to buy more often. And I need to replace these things that I already have. That may be perfectly fine. And innovation is a good thing. I don't want that to come off the wrong way companies are incentive buys to innovate. But sometimes they innovate needlessly. And that's when we have access. And you also have consumers feeling like they have to replace perfectly good stuff and get rid of things just because it's no longer maybe on trend.

Nick VinZant 6:54

Who's driving the car, though? Like, are we driving the car? Are the companies driving the car? Like I could have the

Professor Sarah Grace 7:03

I don't know, anybody know, knows who is driving the car. I think that there are people who have really strong stances, and some people would say it is purely companies driving the car, through marketing through promotion through incessant advertising, they're spinning up the wheels of consumer desire. I think that there's some truth in that. But I also think going back to consumer culture, if companies stopped advertising today, they spent not another dime on advertising. We wouldn't know what to do, we wouldn't be content, or know how to not still buy new stuff that we don't need.

Nick VinZant 7:46

Is there a segment of society that kind of keeps that engine going more than other ones? Oh, I

Professor Sarah Grace 7:53

hate to point fingers. I think if you're using the fashion industry, again, social media has really changed this because if you are a high schooler in the Midwest, and you went to school, and you're walking down your hallway, you might have seen like, oh, there's some like new trends. And like, maybe I need to go to the mall and pick up this new sequined purse or whatever it is. But you only kind of saw what was in your community. Social media obviously blew that out. And there are there's this new trend of influencers, posting shopping hauls, especially from fast fashion retailers, like Shi n or forever 21. But primarily Sheehan and I think that, you know, they put those out on YouTube, they put those out on tick tock or Instagram. And they have tons of people just watching them open these $500 orders from this month. And then next month, they're going to do the same thing. And they normalize this idea of it's normal to get a new thing for this one occasion or event, wear it, take a picture and it posted on social media and not touch it again. Because it was so cheap. It was a $7 pair of shorts, that, you know, I got my $7 worth, and then move on. And so again, I hate to point the finger on any one group. But influencer culture is one that has popped up in the last few years that I think keeps that alive. And it also because it's global, you see people, you know, consume in ways that you might not have seen if it was just the people that you saw in person. I

Nick VinZant 9:39

have a personal bias in this that may kind of contaminate the conversation. But I've always been the person that like look, I got the same T shirt I had in high school. I've been driving the same car for 10 years, right? Like I buy nothing new. So my question is though, like, can we stop this? Because if we suddenly stopped buying this stuff, then what happens to the People who got hired to make this stuff, right, like there's, there's this the economy collapse if we get ourselves out, have we painted ourselves into a corner with this?

Professor Sarah Grace 10:08

And I think that that is a really good question. And when you're thinking about any kind of system change, or promoting some sort of systemic change, you have to think of all the different stakeholders who are affected. And what's interesting about our consumer culture is that our consumption and our production is pretty far apart from most of the items that we consume, whether it's food, whether it's clothes, whether it's home goods, meaning that we have, we've offshored most of our production. So I took an economic development class from an amazing professor in my undergrad, who was from Bangladesh. And this was the point the exact question that she posed to us is, okay, we stop buying fast fashion clothes that are made by women and Bangladesh, what happens to those women? What are their alternatives? And I don't know the answer to your question. But I do think what is important is for us to realize how connected our consumption behaviors are both good and bad, globally. So the things that you consume in the United States, in a Midwestern suburb, in New York City, in California, wherever impact people across the world, in both good and bad ways. It does give people jobs. But the question is, are those jobs safe? Are they paying a living wage? Do those people have jobs, but then their river or their water source is polluted because of the factory that's in their town? And so it's a very complicated question that I can't provide an answer to. But I think that you have to think of all the good and bad things that are connected.

Nick VinZant 12:00

Do most people when they buy something, like, do we know what we're really doing? Do we know who's actually making this? What their principles as a company are? Or am I just like grabbing this thing off the shelf and like, yeah, that's a medium t shirt. And that's what I'm looking for.

Professor Sarah Grace 12:16

I think for most of us, shopping, and consuming is a passive behavior. It's an unreflected upon behavior, it's just part of what we do. It's just normal. And it's not something that we stop and think a whole lot about. And you probably picked the one that your parents used to buy. And that's the one that you get, and that's the one that you buy for the rest of your life. And you just don't think about it. There are very few times that we stop and like, really think about our purchases. If you're buying a house, or a car, or an engagement ring, something big you stop and you really think and reflect on it. But most of our consumer behavior is that more like fast, habitual, like we're just kind of moving through the actions and conscious consumerism. To me, people define it differently is that act of just stopping pausing thinking through slowing down in the way that we think about our consumption behavior.

Nick VinZant 13:19

Are you ready for some listener submitted questions? Sure. It seems to be a big thing about brands being authentic. Are brands really authentic? Or is this fake authenticity that they're now basically, like, we figured out how to act like that? 31, I guess, what do you think about this push for authenticity,

Professor Sarah Grace 13:41

brands are kind of put into this place where they have to differentiate themselves, and be unique. And one way that they are unique is to have a personality. And if you have a personality, you don't want to have a phony personality. So of course, you want to have an authentic personality. And I think that for a lot of brands, it differs. But the way that a brand can be authentic, is to go back to their origin story. Every brand has a founder, and a reason for being someone somewhere decided this product needs to be here. And here's why. And so if a brand can go back to that origin story of why the brand exists in the first place, maybe tap into the spirit or the ethos of the founder. That's the way to create an authentic brands, not to try to contrive a story that you think your consumers want to hear.

Nick VinZant 14:36

Is there a store that stands out in your mind, like you walk in and the way that it's organized, or set up the lighting, whatever, gets people to maybe buy something that they otherwise wouldn't have?

Professor Sarah Grace 14:52

That's a hilarious question, because I'm literally doing a Tik Tok series on this right now. And In it, all of the videos start off and they say, What is XYZ company really selling, and kind of paint a picture of how the brand makes you feel a certain way when you enter your space, and how it transports you to a different state of feeling a certain way about yourself or, you know, kind of romanticizes you and it gets you out of your rational, unreflective mind. And it kind of takes you like to this dreamy state where you might make an irrational decision and spend way more than you thought you were going to make. And so a brand truly sweeps you off your feet. And then you walk out and you're like, how did I just spend $200 on a tea kettle? Because the object itself is maybe nice, but it's not that nice. So to answer your question, a couple that I've featured recently are anthropology, which is a retailer that mostly caters to women's clothing and home goods, stationery, mugs, candles, things like that, and they sell an entire feeling of kind of like, like, what's the word?

Nick VinZant 16:20

I know what you're, I know what you're trying to like, right? Like, I've got my life together. And it's good kind of feeling

Professor Sarah Grace 16:27

that to that too. But also, like, I am a free spirit who has my life together, right? It's not, because you have to have a lot of money to shop there. So you have to have some sort of income coming in. But you also it's not like your J Crew preppy, you know, blazer style, it's this bohemian kind of free spirit vibe as well. And so it might even be that it's offering you an escape from your nine to five corporate job into this imagined state where you're really a free spirit going to a Grateful Dead concert. So anthropology does a great job of romanticizing the consumer, and they spend a lot of time in each of their stores, merchandising their product, they hire local artists to come in and do different window displays, they flip and rotate the way that their merchandise is displayed. I've heard on a weekly basis so that if you walk in every week, it feels a little bit different, even though it's the same merchandise.

Nick VinZant 17:34

Is there an example of one that's the exact opposite?

Professor Sarah Grace 17:38

Hmm. Well, anthropology is trying to sell you on a motion, so that you'll pay a little bit more. A lot of your lower price retailers are not trying to sell you any kind of an emotion. They're just trying to serve that functional need for you. So if you think of like $1 tree, or $1, General, you go in there and there is no romanticization is basically the product and the prices. And it's very straightforward.

Nick VinZant 18:08

It's kind of I sometimes I guess I just feel like a fish that is always getting caught.

Professor Sarah Grace 18:14

Well, perhaps part of the reason for that is that market research is really good. And consumer research is really good. They know a lot about you. companies spend a lot of energy, you know, going on trend scouting hunts, and they will peruse the internet, and they'll practice social listening activities to see what people are talking about organically. And when they spot an opportunity. Of course, they're going to try to package it up. And how do we sell that back? Marketers have become ethnographers in a way where they observe the culture and they observe consumers and their natural habitats. And they stay out of the way. And they take notes and they make observations and they draw conclusions about what they see going on. Or they they take data and see what consumers are actually buying. And they use that without ever actually talking to the customer. And then they are able to put together an offering that resonates with the consumer, and the consumer gets it and they're like, Hmm, this company really knows me. And it's because yes, they are deeply observing your behavior.

Nick VinZant 19:32

What is Twiggy? Can you spell it CHEUGY Oh, I'm pronouncing that like so badly. It's a completely different word, isn't it? Okay, well, it's a different word. What is it actually? So what you're trying to say is Chuki which is a terrible sounding word. It's awful. It's awful choice. sounds better to me

Professor Sarah Grace 20:01

cheeky? Well, I don't even want to say it. Um, so Chuki is a word that I didn't know existed until I got on Tik Tok. And it basically goes like this, people would post a video, and they would say, these are the things that are two key. And then they would show, you know, a slideshow of consumer objects, like pants, or a style of shoe or whatever, that they viewed as a mix of both dated but also oversaturated. So it was a consumer trend at one point that was everywhere. accessible to many people, they got it, it was probably eight or so years ago. And now people are labeling it as Chuki. So instead of just saying like, Oh, that's outdated. It's like I say that, but it has a little bit of like an insult flair to it.

Nick VinZant 21:02

It's you're hopping on a trend too late, or you stayed on it too long.

Professor Sarah Grace 21:06

You stayed on it too long, is what it is. Um,

Nick VinZant 21:09

okay. You're very objective. So I'm gonna try to ask you this question in a way that maybe you can answer without saying if you judge it negatively or positively, what brand would tell you the most about somebody like, oh, this brand? I know exactly who you are.

Professor Sarah Grace 21:31

I think that the easier a brand is to describe the stronger the brand is. And this has changed too in the past couple years. Right. So the first brand that I wanted to say was Tesla. Oh, yeah, yeah, I feel like even in the past couple of years, because their production has ramped up and their distribution has increased. More people own Tesla's than before, but two years ago, if you'd asked me that question, easily, my answer would be Tesla. And if you had one of those cars, it would say a few different things about you. One, that you're an early adopter of trends, you are forward thinking and innovative, but you also care what people think about you. And I think that all three of those things are true of early Tesla owners. That might stir some people up.

Nick VinZant 22:24

Can you break down? Like in your research, have you done studied this so much that like you can break down people by exactly the brand? Like if I'm like, okay, Patagonia, right, can you like, so you are this,

Professor Sarah Grace 22:37

that's another one that's changed so much in the past 10 years, as well, like Patagonia 10 years ago, meant something much tighter because the people who wore Patagonia were in a very specific subset of mostly an outdoor crowd, like you are buying Patagonia to go hiking or to go rock climbing. But I live in a college town. So when I go to the store, I see Patagonia on everybody. Everybody's wearing Patagonia. And these are not necessarily people that are going out and participating in outdoor extreme sports. So that's a brand that the meaning has. I don't want to say evaporated, but the meaning has diluted over time, as people who are not in their target market adopt it. And that's what happens is the bigger brand gets their brand meeting is not as tight anymore.

Nick VinZant 23:36

Is there a brand that just tells you nothing about someone

Professor Sarah Grace 23:41

Apple like and I feel like 10 years ago, again, Apple might have told you a little bit of something. But now I think people buy Apple because it's the cultural norm. And I think that it's ubiquitous. But again, I'm on a in a college town. So it seems like everybody has an Apple computer. Or an everyone has air pods and I just don't feel like it tells me anything.

Nick VinZant 24:06

I feel like it tells me something if they have an Apple computer, not an iPhone necessarily, right? Like I don't see the difference in people's phones, like oh, that tells I mean unless it's like a burner phone, and then you're probably a drug dealer or you've got something else going on, you know, kind of knows something about you.

Professor Sarah Grace 24:25

I think that's a good point. So the iPhone brand in particular. Um, but when I was teaching, it was always interesting, everyone would sit down, pull out their laptops, and nine times out of 10 It was an apple. But those nine people were all very different.

Nick VinZant 24:43

I could ask you questions about every single brand that you could imagine forever, but to avoid that, like Are there any other brands that you would that stand out to you and like this means this or this doesn't mean anything?

Professor Sarah Grace 24:56

Hmm. Um, Starbucks is another brand that I've been really boggled by the last few years, when you read about the history of Starbucks, Howard Schultz, the previous CEO, he had gone to a trip on a trip to Milan, Italy and fell in love with cafe culture, and wanted to bring back to America. And so he got to the States, he tried to like recreate cafe culture, Starbucks as a third place to home and work, a place for people to like be in gathering and socialize the Starbucks brand to me, doesn't mean that anymore, and I can't put my finger on what it means. Because Starbucks has things like unicorn frappuccinos, which are kind of like a goofy Instagrammable play. They're not necessarily Italian coffee shop there, kind of all over the place. And that's a brand that is an example of, I think they have some work to do. What is great about brands is that they can be markers of things like quality, I think that brands play an important role. I just don't think that they should play an outsized role in our lives. So brands have a place because they do legitimize what you're buying, or at least that was the original idea. Some brands, take advantage of that basic assumption and make it seem like you're getting more than you're actually getting.

Nick VinZant 26:39

Like, I feel like a Mercedes Benz and BMW are basically kind of the same kind of car, at least in the United States. But the Mercedes Benz says something completely different about something that BMW says, like I look at someone who bought a Mercedes, and I think that's a person who's probably duty pretty, pretty financially. Well, not they're not ostentatious, and they want something that works. I see somebody, I've never met a man who drives a BMW, that's not a douchebag. That doesn't exist. That that's an immediate sign to me. Oh, that makes complete sense.

Professor Sarah Grace 27:11

Yeah, right. Well, that were that you used sign. I don't want to go off on a rabbit trail. But there's a whole field of marketing that looks at the study of sign meanings. And what things signify is called semiotics. And it's actually not just a marketing exclusive field, it actually was born out of linguistics. But semiotics is the study of science. And so that's part of what I studied in my training in consumer culture is to understand, okay, these things signify certain things, things to different people. And sometimes people interpret those meanings differently. So a lot of times marketers are trying to really tightly figure out what those meanings are, and then manage them, because they want everyone to interpret BMW the same way. That's when you have a strong brand. So like I said, Starbucks, I have a hard time defining what Starbucks is right now. And that's because different people would define the brand differently. And I don't think that they're managing those meanings in a really uniform way. And strong brands have a pretty uniform, meaning is shopping

Nick VinZant 28:22

difficult for you. Like, I feel like you would go into a store and just evaluate, like, every single thing like, Oh, I know why they put that display there.

Professor Sarah Grace 28:31

Shopping is not fun for me anymore. Sometimes if I can, like detach myself, but I feel like I know, too. You know too much.

Ski Jumpers Nina Lussi and Casey Larson

Racing downhill at nearly 60 miles an hour, Ski Jumpers Casey Larson and Nina Lussi launch themselves hundreds of feet into the air. We talk ski jumping, the upcoming Olympics, groundhog hazards and why ski jumpers always put their hands out the car window. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Winter Activities.

Casey Larson and Nina Lussi: 01:27ish

Pointless: 24:57ish

Top 5: 43:20ish

https://www.instagram.com/caseylarson (Casey Larson Instagram)

https://www.instagram.com/ninalussi (Nina Lussi Instagram)

https://twitter.com/NinaLussi (Nina Lussi Twitter)

Interview with Nina Lussi and Casey Larson

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, ski jumping, and snow activities,

Nina Lussi 0:21

it's ski jumping is so beautiful because it's, I don't know, it's like the world turns off and you're just out there in the elements by by yourself.

Casey Larson 0:31

If you let go of the bar and you get in your interim position, you're going off that ski jump, whether you like it or not. And then once you let go, you got to be ready to handle whatever happens. So if the winds not right, you know, you trust your coach with your life

Nina Lussi 0:43

stand under the takeoff. And you can hear the rush of the skier coming down. And then you can, like, see them shoot right over your head and kind of start flying. Oh, man,

Casey Larson 0:55

well, sometimes you get bugs. And that's always a fun one. Like if you get a little like be splattered on your goggles. If you'd freak out a little bit.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guests are some of the best ski jumpers in the world. And right now they're getting ready to try to represent the United States at the Winter Olympics. This is Casey Larson. And Nina Lucy, did you set out to be a ski jumper? Or did this was this something that just happened?

Casey Larson 1:31

I mean, I started ski jumping when I was six years old started just kind of goofing around in the winters, it was a good way to like you know, in between t ball and you know, flag football season per se. But then pretty quickly, it took off into something a little bit bigger, for sure.

Nina Lussi 1:45

We could say that ski jumping found me. Now. I'm from Lake Placid, New York, we had the Winter Olympics in 1980, and 32. So grew up in an Olympic Village upon skis, so as on skiing by age three. And so my brother and I tried it together. And we're basically we're hockey ever since. So

Nick VinZant 2:06

what is it about it? What do you like about it,

Nina Lussi 2:08

it's scheduling is so beautiful, because it's, you have to find the edge of like, risk, but also control and when you're in it, time slows down and you're you can feel the air and you can this like, I don't know, it's like the world turns off, and you're just out there, in the elements by by yourself.

Casey Larson 2:30

Do it was the one thing that I wasn't just, I didn't naturally pick up very well. I didn't naturally pick up this like, you know, golf esque, like super technical sport very easily it was it was kind of tough for me. And then it just became this like addiction to just try and make sure I could, you know, I could bring my arms in, or I could be more aerodynamic or I could do all these things. And, you know, I really didn't realize how much I liked, you know, kind of diving into that, that that side of the sport until like high school. And even after high school,

Nick VinZant 2:57

watching it on TV, I can never decide if this is a simple sport, that's just go down a hill and jump. Or if there's something that's really technical about it, and I don't see it.

Casey Larson 3:09

I call I mean, I call it an extreme version of golf in that sense. Like you can apply like, you know, the amount of video watching and the amount of you know, you know, technical analysis, the amount of just overall, like contorting your body is very similar to golf. I mean, in the sense of you just have to hit this tiny little thing in a 250 yards. Whereas a ski jumper, you have to just you are the ball, right? You are trying to, you know, take off so perfectly. And so my Newton, the differences are so small that you just got to it's very applicable in that sense to the slumps and the highs and the lows of those two sports where sometimes you're feeling it sometimes the rhythms there. And then other days, it's definitely not.

Nick VinZant 3:48

So what are you trying to do? Are you trying to go faster into the jump? Are you trying to time the jump, right? Is it when you're in the air? Like what's the what's what's the goal there?

Nina Lussi 4:01

The takeoff portion is pretty critical the speed. It's a designated start spot for everybody. So yeah, I mean, we spent time working on how to keep your skis super straight and super like in the middle of the tracks, so there's less friction and so that you're going as fast as possible and obviously wax and everything. But the takeoff portion is the simple move from like the Enron position, like the squat type thing into the air, and that's where you're propelling yourself into the flight. And if you can do that, you want to put as much power down onto like down on the on the takeoff, but also move yourself kind of project yourself forward out over your skis. So that's really important and so that the timing aspect of that and the force that you're putting down, but also you don't want to be super powerful and like use a lot of muscle and then you're shooting too far up and then your skis are coming at you. So then, so you need to shoot yourself out basically perfectly and reduce the amount of drag. And then when you're in the air, you're trying to surf right above the air and kind of pull away from the hill, because the takeoff is actually shooting you down. So it's at minus 12 degrees. So it's not launching you up.

Nick VinZant 5:23

It's pointed, I never noticed that it's pointed. I just, it's not a ramp, is it?

Nina Lussi 5:29

No. And that's what everyone thinks they think it's like shooting you straight up. It's actually shooting you at the ground.

Nick VinZant 5:35

Do you just like, changed my entire perception of ski jumping my entire? I always thought that like, oh, yeah, there's a little ramp on the end. And then they go up like they try to jump off the ramp.

Nina Lussi 5:45

With the takeoff with the takeoff power, you're going up because you're, you're literally jumping off the ground. So then, so then you're coming up like that, but you're creating that you're not using, you're not using the the jump.

Nick VinZant 6:00

Yeah, and anybody who's ever like tried to run downhill and jump off of a downhill. That's way more complicated than kind of jumping off flat ground or like jumping off of an uphill.

Casey Larson 6:11

Yeah, I haven't thought about that. But yeah, where you would want to jump forward, but still down to that you can kind of keep your speed going

Nick VinZant 6:20

from when you kind of jump to when you land. How long How far are we talking

Casey Larson 6:27

250 meters through the air. It's that's that's the world record in my I've gone 216 and a half meters on the same day, the world record set. So my my personal best was out shine for sure. But 216 meters, that's still almost 230 yards, 240 yards,

Nick VinZant 6:44

you're still talking like a couple of city blocks. When you're flying over a couple of city blocks where

Casey Larson 6:49

you're, you're flying over. You're flying from UC takeoff through one goalpost. And then you go through two more goalposts and then you land at the 50 yard line, right?

Nick VinZant 7:03

That's insane when you think about it that way that you're essentially flying over two and a half football fields. Okay, this is my armchair analysis of it. So watching it like all right, you jump right at the end, right? Like, how hard is that? Why is it difficult not to like jump at the right time, every time.

Casey Larson 7:22

I don't know I'm in trying to figure that out for like 10 years now. And I still have it. So I think that's my biggest issue is just like why why I always you know, timing is the probably the biggest one just like that take off the minute like bringing your chest up a little bit, or just not getting all the power down, whether that be in your shin it like just not being in the correct position, I'm not putting 100% of the power that you possibly can put down down and getting into that aerodynamic position, you're going to be you're just screwed right off the bat. So you really can't bring your chest up at all, you really got to just stay low, and then just use your legs and go. And at the end of the day, it is a simple sport. And that's kind of the thing is, the older you get, the easier it looks. And that's the whole point of sport is those professionals, the guys that are winning the Olympics, and even me sometimes I make it look really easy. Whereas and that's the whole point of the sport is, is I think I want people to say that I want people to think it's an easy sport, because if they're watching me when they say that, that just means I'm doing it right.

Nick VinZant 8:20

When you kind of actually get into the air, what are you trying to do once you're in the air,

Casey Larson 8:25

that's like, what makes a good ski jumper good is like when he gets in the air when she's in the air. You just kind of naturally note to do. You're trying to, you know, extend and pull away from the hill and just kind of, you know, glide on that cushion of air that you've created for yourself. And are you

Nick VinZant 8:39

like you're trying to achieve a certain like angle though, and things like that, right? Yes,

Casey Larson 8:44

like, it's when you're driving on the highway later today. Or, you know, if you're in your car, pop the window open and stick your hand out. And you'll notice like, if you have it down here, it's gonna dive straight into the ground. If you bring it up here, your hands going to go back to the back of the window. But then you're going to find this little happy medium where your hand just wants to go straight up. And that's the body position we're trying to find with our skis and our body. We're just trying to be not too far aerodynamic, but not also not too far back. Just something where that wiggle just bring us right up

Nick VinZant 9:13

is a great analogy, honestly, like I perfectly understand it right now. Like oh, no, he's correct. So does that mean like you spend a lot of time in car rides? Sticking your hand out the window?

Casey Larson 9:24

Definitely. Yeah. Even Even today, even when it's like 25 degrees out in Park City. Oh,

Nick VinZant 9:30

just to test it out, just to get a feel for it. What kind of like when you when you look at your training, like what kind of training are you generally doing for it

Nina Lussi 9:38

depends on the time of year. So the spring we're usually we're improving our general aerobic capacity, so a lot more of running and that kind of thing. So that's like basic stretching follows you through the whole year. A lot of core falls you through the whole year. Try to build up more muscle with it. squats in that type of thing more in the summer. And then in the winter, less reps, but still high weight to keep the strength. A lot of hurdles coordination, so ladders balance slacklining. Generally, also some things like we do usually two days of in the summer of wakesurfing. So you like, have a nice feeling of where how your feet are moving into kind of, because in in jumping, you need to, like feel the balance and like, be able to be soft without like sub you can, if there are different conditions on the snow, if it's like gets really slow. If you're like super rigid in your position that'll throw you off. But if you can absorb it, then that's that's really important.

Nick VinZant 10:49

So okay, how much control do you have to have if you're coming up to it? And I'm a big kind of math numbers person. So Right. So imagine that you're going down there and you could give 100% Everything you've got into the jump? Can you do it that way? Or do you have to kind of hold back a little bit so that you can land this thing?

Nina Lussi 11:10

Well, you're it's not really an explosive movement. It's like, like a tennis swing or something. Like if you try to really like slam it, it's not going to be as efficient as if you do a really long, smooth, but also a strong stroke. And so that's basically what we're trying to do. So that your best jumps don't feel like you're trying that hard. But you're just maximizing the the output by using like, one time this one coach told me that in ski jumping, you want to use as little like as few muscles as possible. And I was like, like, What do you mean, he was like, well, all the extra stuff that you're adding, that's like that's not helping you. He's like, it's like I'm in orchestra when you can hear them playing. And it sounds like one, one voice and you hear them and it's perfect. But some of like, at a lower level. You can hear all the separate instruments and they aren't exactly in tune. And so that's when the other the extra muscles are involved. So when you can get everything into that one singular sound that is when things are like ideal.

Nick VinZant 12:20

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure, let's get to it. Strangest thought you've ever had while in the air.

Casey Larson 12:28

Oh man, well sometimes hit bugs. And that's always a fun one. Like if you get a little like be splattered on your goggles if you'd freak out a little bit. But I will say when I was a little kid, I do remember letting go of the bar on a smaller Hill. So I was totally okay. But I remember being like I didn't put my bindings in. And the way the ski jumping boot works is you kind of slam this little, this little piece of plastic into the back of the booth that allows your your heel to come off the ski a little bit. I was like I didn't put that in. So I remember jumping into the air and just wanting you. And it was it was the most scared I've ever been in my life. It was It was wild. I felt like I was I was okay. Thankfully, you know, you get learnt you learn how to falls at a young age, you definitely make enough mistakes where you can fall safely. Basically just keep your knees straight in the air and you're going to be totally fine. Your body's gonna stay relatively straight. But I was I was freaking out.

Nina Lussi 13:21

I mean, one time there was there was like a little there was a groundhog that was running across the land and kale and I could see it below me while it was flying. So I thought, Oh, I hope I don't hit that.

Nick VinZant 13:37

Will you sometimes like jump and kind of veer off to one side or veer off to one side in the air? Or do you pretty much just go straight?

Casey Larson 13:46

Well, your body's never symmetric. But you also naturally want to go straight. So you find these ways to correct so mice, my skis are never symmetrical, but I go straight, if that makes sense. But obviously wind whatever conditions whatever it may be, you end up having some gems where you go to one side more or less, but those hills are massive, allow for like a pretty big amount of play. So you're never too worried about like, you know, landing on the other mining in the grass or landing, you know, off the hill. But yeah, you you learn how to deal with it and you end up if you do it enough times, you're not gonna get too scared by it. So you end up not just knowing how to deal with it, I guess,

Nick VinZant 14:18

for my kind of understanding, so imagine like zero is completely straight. How much will you drift to one side? Are we talking like five meters? 10 meters like, oh, you I've seen a guy drift like 30 meters to one side. Yeah,

Casey Larson 14:34

I mean, there's definitely athletes that are known for it. And we say the winds the winds better on the right side of the hill. So you go to the right side of the hill. That's not true. But you see some athletes just do it. And they're totally fine. And then they have a play of like, you know, 1015 meters so those hills really big into landing Hill. See, they're allowed to do it and they're totally fine. They end up being you know, they're nothing, you know, changes but at the end of the day, I always think like, well, that's just extra meters. I could be flying straight but I'm not flying to the right, you know, so I just think like the straighter the better. But obviously there's there's athletes out there that break those rules and you know winning competitions doing it,

Nick VinZant 15:09

how far up above where you jump is where you usually land. Yeah, the hills

Casey Larson 15:15

are steep. So you're definitely not like flying across flat ground. It's not like water ski jumping that you might have seen on TV where it's like they're they're just flying across the water and then landing completely flat, we have this big hill, we're able to kind of coast on and coast down. So that's why we're able to land so far. That's why we're able to like be relatively safe at the same time to you know, knock on wood. Injuries are pretty limited in ski jumping, obviously, some knee, see some knee injuries and stuff like that. But for the most part, the impact is super low. The only the only sport at the Olympics, it's safe within ski jumping at that level is curling. But yeah, that's kind of why it's so safe, because we're just following the super steep hill just kind of flying along it. And then it does start to flatten out at some point. And that's called the K point, that's when I refer to the size of the hills like the K 10k 20. That just means the hill flattens out at 120 meters. And then after that, I see your mark, you have to go past that if you want to win a competition going past the k points just kind of proven, you're able to break physics, right? You're, you're kind of you're good enough athlete that you're able to just go past that point in fly and fly past that, that flat portion of it of the hill.

Nick VinZant 16:22

So what you're landing on flat ground Are you landing on the slower,

Casey Larson 16:25

it's such a gradual decline in terms of the rate, the radius is so long and so big on any Hill, that even if you go past the point where it starts to flatten out, you're still landing on pretty steep ground.

Nick VinZant 16:36

Oh, I see what you're saying. Right. So like there's the steep part, there's the k point and then there's the kind of steep part basically. Okay, that makes sense to me. Have you ever backed off of one

Casey Larson 16:46

you really can't right so you're in these when you let go this bar right when you hop on a ski jump and getting get ready to go. If you let go of the bar and you get your interim position, you're going off that ski jump whether you like it or not. And you just have the ritual that you trust that you can never second guess right you check your bindings you check your equipment, you check your goggles to get on the bar, you can do it again. And then once you let go you got to be ready to handle whatever happens so if the winds not right, you know, you trust your coach with your life pretty much is how it works. So if your coach lives a you know that everything say everything's gonna be totally fine. I just got to do my job.

Nick VinZant 17:25

Well, when you go though, okay, so we talked to a freestyle Cliff jumper who said that, like, look, every time I go, I'm still scared. Are you still scared every time you do it? Or it's just like, it's Tuesday, man, I've done this 1000s of times.

Casey Larson 17:38

I don't think I don't think I'd still do it if I wasn't still scared. I think the adrenaline and just that little pickup is what keeps you honest and what keeps you focused. So for me, I've never been a daredevil I've never like even when I was a kid and moved up to a bigger hill I took me so long ago to actually like, go and actually deal with it. I was never as fearless little kid.

Nina Lussi 17:57

It's not super like it's not like every jump. I'm like, oh my god, what am I doing? But it is still like every once in a while you will get up there and you're like, either if it's windy or new hill or some something's weird. You're like, oh, this is no, this is serious. Like, I need to like, know what I'm doing like, this isn't a joke.

Nick VinZant 18:22

Okay, ask you this question. Have you ever thought of flapping your arms to potentially go far farther during the ski jump?

Casey Larson 18:33

Oh, man, when people try there's you know, there's like nervous twitches athletes have but I'll throw my teammate under the bus coming back now. Um, if you look at some videos of him up, he flaps his arms pretty bad. But it doesn't add anything. I think it's just a, I think I think it's just a twitch. I don't really know why people end up moving their hands or moving their arms a little bit more than others. But I usually pray stay pretty stuck in the air and don't move too much. But But hey, you know, maybe I'll try it. I don't know.

Nina Lussi 19:03

I appreciate I definitely appreciate the advice insight. I have, like, this was last week, and I was trying to find I was training. So I'm like trying to get ready for the Olympic season. And I'm trying to find exactly how far away from my body my arms are. So like, I was having them probably like three inches away from my side so that I could maximize the surface area. Because that was like enough like the dry like it wouldn't the air wouldn't kind of come between my arm and my body. So just kind of like get a little bit bigger. But I wasn't feeling as much as I wanted to. So then, while I was flying, I was like moving my arms in and out, like looking for the perfect surface and my coach was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I just wanted to like, maximize what I could do and he was like, okay, all right.

Nick VinZant 20:00

Okay. So they kind of sounds like the answer is yes.

Nina Lussi 20:09

We want yeah, you want to know exactly where to, to be in to keep it in that position. So you can kind of,

Nick VinZant 20:16

can you make it? Can you? Can this be a full time living?

Casey Larson 20:20

Yeah, it isn't at this point. Definitely not. I mean, even as an Olympic athlete, you know, obviously trying to make another one, it's certainly not a full time living, it's not something I can, you know, maintain for another four or five years without getting a lot better at the sport. But if you're top, I'd say Top 10 Top 20. Um, if you're on the World Cup circuit consistently, and you're consistently getting like top 30 results, you're able to do okay, you're able to get the sponsors that like watching it. It's the biggest winter sport in Europe. I mean, viewership wise.

Nick VinZant 20:52

So how big is it overseas?

Casey Larson 20:54

Mass, I'd say it's, we fight with, there's so many disciplines inside of ski racing. And there's only one discipline in ski jumping. So that's kind of how we cheat the viewership numbers. If that makes sense. We fill up stadiums pretty pretty much on the regular before COVID with 40,000 people.

Nick VinZant 21:10

Well, how come that hasn't like, Well, why not in the US, right? Like, how come that hasn't hit here?

Casey Larson 21:15

I don't know. I really don't know when you know, as it's definitely better in person, right? Better than it could ever be on TV. Ski jumping in person is pretty pretty darn cool. You get you don't get a little bit more respect for just how absolutely insane it is and how far these athletes are going.

Nick VinZant 21:30

would if I was to show up to like an event. Would I be shocked at how steep and big things are? Or what I look at and be like, ah, that's not as that's not as steep as I thought it was seeing it on TV.

Casey Larson 21:43

I think you'd be more impressed in person. Honestly, I think I think a TV does it some justice, but not enough justice.

Nina Lussi 21:50

I think the best way to see ski jumping is to get as close to the action as possible. Live, of course. So if you one cool thing is if you're obviously not everybody can do this. But if you stand under the takeoff, and you can hear the rush of the skier coming down. And then you can like, see them shoot right over your head and kind of start flying. And where you can see this you can feel the speed and then also when you're in the air, it makes this cool like I don't know, it's a really special sound because you are almost like an airplane so you can hear the the air on on this gear. But on TV, you can't really like that. Those sensations don't really come through.

Nick VinZant 22:36

Who's kind of that like who's the Michael Jordan of ski jumping.

Nina Lussi 22:41

I mean, this girl, Sara Takanashi, the Japanese girl has been like really good for a really long time. There was also a Japanese guy named Noriaki kosai, who was one of the oldest jumpers, and he actually, like transitioned through every different ski jumping style. So he actually used to jump in old style where your skis are like straight. And then he did the V and like has gone to, I don't know, five or six Olympics. Wow, like still competitive got a medal in? Yeah. But that's very rare and like you have to have a body that can sustain that.

Nick VinZant 23:23

Is there is there a country that like oh, here comes the Bulgarians or whatever. Is there a country that dominates?

Casey Larson 23:31

Yeah, the power of the power? The power countries are definitely Norway. Poland, Austria, Germany. Finland is up there. Scandinavian countries are big.

Nick VinZant 23:45

Oh, this is the last one best ski jumping seen in a movie or TV show.

Nina Lussi 23:50

There was like the Eddie the Eagle movie that came out a few years ago. That wasn't like super cool ski jumping. You know what's cool is like, I was training in Slovenia before and two of the guys I was training with they were like stunt double. So they had to learn how to like jump bad to be in the movie. And they like went to the premiere and stuff. So that was cool. So they liked it. But

Nick VinZant 24:21

how do you jump bad? And still, like not get seriously injured?

Nina Lussi 24:29

Yeah, that's the thing is it's like totally about the body awareness and being able to control exactly what you're doing. And so

Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker

From terraforming the Earth for life to protecting against climate change, Fungi have played a critical role in our past, our present and our future. Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker joins us to talk fungi, the best mushrooms for your health, microbiology, Mycelium technology and magic mushrooms. Then, we countdown the Top 5 underrated candies.

Dr. Gordon Walker: 01:35ish

Pointless: 37:48

Top 5: 49:51ish

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https://www.instagram.com/fascinatedbyfungi/ (Dr. Walker Instagram - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://www.tiktok.com/@fascinatedbyfungi (Dr. Walker TikTok - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://twitter.com/fascin8dbyfungi (Dr. Walker Twitter - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://www.patreon.com/fascinatedbyfungi (Dr. Walker Patreon - Fascinated By Fungi)

Interview with Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, fascinating fungi, and underrated candy.

Dr. Gordon Walker 0:22

So they're cryptic. They're absolutely everywhere. You have fungi on every surface of everything in your house. We have a beginning and an end in many ways. Fungi don't mycelium lives in, plurality incarnate. It is constantly moving, growing in all different directions. There's no central bank brain, there's no central decision making center. And so like life as we know it on this planet, was essentially terraforming by plants and fungi. So they don't just take over the world. They are the world.

Nick VinZant 0:52

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is fascinated by fungi. And I have to admit, going into this. I knew fungi were important, right? Like anybody else. I could look at a mushroom and say, I don't really know what that thing is doing. But it has to be doing something important. I never realized how fascinating and how important fungi are in our past, in our present, and for our future. Our first guest is fungi expert, Dr. Gordon Walker. So why are fungi important?

Dr. Gordon Walker 1:38

Fungi are incredibly important. And they're at everywhere on our planet, every interface of life. And it's something that people don't think about because they're generally microscopic, you often can't see them. And even if they're not microscopic, if it's mycelium, it's hidden down in soil, and inside of wood. So they're cryptic, they're absolutely everywhere. They're omnipresent. You have fungi on every surface of everything in your house. And yet you don't see them. And you don't notice them until they create the fruiting bodies, their reproductive structures, generally. So that's the little molds you would see on food, or it's the mushrooms you'd see out in your lawn. Or maybe it's like, you know, some other weird growth, you'd see somewhere and be like, what is that, and yet fungi are all around us constantly. And we have really no idea what they're doing, at least from like a layperson point of view. In essence, what fungi do and why they are so important, is they're specialists at recycling carbon. So in our ecosystems, there's a lot of leftover plant matter, especially. And if that would build up, you would just have like huge deposits of compacted plant matter, that would never really turn into soil. And so fungi have evolved a suite of really powerful enzymes to help break down complex polysaccharide linkages and carbon into smaller units, which then other microbes can go ahead and eat. So they are sort of a keystone species in the first step towards creating soils. And that's part of why they're so important, especially in terrestrial ecosystems. The thing

Nick VinZant 3:07

that I always wonder is right, I see a mushroom on the forest. Like, what is that thing? I guess? Like, I know, it's a mushroom, but what what is it?

Dr. Gordon Walker 3:17

So what is it? I mean, I get this question a lot. And it's, it's a great question, because it's still something that people misunderstand. You know, people think that oh, mushrooms are plants, and they're all these other things like No, mushrooms are fungi. Mushrooms very specifically, are the reproductive structures of the mycelium or the the body of the fungus that is usually below that part of that cryptic hidden part I was talking about. And the mushroom is the visible reproductive organ of that mycelium. So it's like the fruit or a flower. And it's analogous in that it is producing sexual spores to help disperse the range of that mushroom and sort of see the next generation of mycelium and continue the fungus cycle in the soil.

Nick VinZant 4:00

Are they so the bigger part of it then is below ground?

Dr. Gordon Walker 4:04

Yeah, I mean, it's tough to say because you can't ever really see how big the Mycelium is, you know, like the the world's biggest organism is this giant patch of Armillaria or honey mushroom mycelium that's out in Oregon. I'm going to go visit in a couple of months. And it's a it's I don't know, something like 10 miles or more like it's an enormous organism. It's all contiguous. But it's like a couple centimeters deep in the soil. So it's absolutely massive, but it's not like it doesn't have that much biomass. The biggest heaviest organism on the world is this giant stand of aspen trees. That probably also has mycorrhiza with it, but like this giant chunk of honey fungus is just the mycelium in the soil. It's not the mushrooms themselves, right? So the mushrooms themselves are just the reproductive organs of this huge patch of one giant piece of mycelium that spreads out you know, over like a giant National Park kind of thing. So

Nick VinZant 4:55

are they alive in the way that plants are alive or alive in the way that animals are? alive.

Dr. Gordon Walker 5:00

They're alive in a way that fungi are alive. It's a separate kingdom, right? So, so they're all eukaryotes. So we have in backing out towards the tree of life, right, we have archaea, which is sort of like weird extreme final things. We have bacteria, which are prokaryotes. And those are just tiny little single celled things. And then we have all of eukaryotes, which is stuff like amoebas. And protozoa is we have animals, we have plants, and we have fungi. So those are different kingdoms, the plant, animal and fungi. Fungi are really under their own special thing, because they don't move around like animals. But they also don't do photosynthesis like plants. Ultimately, they're a little bit closer to animals in the sense that they are catabolic. So they are breaking down organic matter to produce sugars. And then they breathe co2 and water the same way that we do. But that's kind of where the similarities end. Fungi use a polysaccharide called chitin, which is present in a lot of bugs and like arthropods, so they're like there's a little bit of a relationship there. But like, generally the way that fungi live is so different from the way that animals and plants live. Like plants have a defined structure, right? That grew up their stems, there's leaves, there's parts that do photosynthesis, there's there's roots, so they sort of define structures. Human beings have heads, fingers, toes, we are we have sort of a top and a bottom and we know where our constraints are. You know, we are we have a beginning and an end in many ways. Fungi don't mycelium lives in plurality incarnate. It is constantly moving, growing in all different directions. There's no central bank brain, there's no central decision making center, every single leading tip is like its own little brain. And somehow these 1000s of little tips growing through the soil are are all able to communicate and talk to each other at the same time and coordinate their behavior enough to then produce a mushroom when the rain comes. So it's a little mind blowing, but it's you know,

Nick VinZant 6:56

so then is an individual mushroom that I see pop poking out of the forest floor. That's not one organism that's is one one isn't a separate one or each one is.

Dr. Gordon Walker 7:08

So think of the mycelium below. There's a let's say there's a big patch under usually what we're talking about are called Ecto mycorrhizal fungi. So these are mushrooms that are associated with trees. So you can think of like think of a really big oak tree, and all around that oak tree, maybe under the drip line of where the sort of the leaves are, you'll find like a bunch of mushrooms in a big circle or something around that tree. So those mushrooms are all related. They're often mycelium that's connected to that tree. If you have another oak tree 50 feet away, you might have a completely different mixture of mushrooms coming up under that oak tree because that oak tree has a different set of associations. And the thing too is mycelium. isn't like I said it's plurality. And so you can have mycelium kind of mixed all mesh together. And so there's like a larger body of fungus where you have like a bunch of people that have kind of forgotten where the beginning and end and they're all down. They're like sharing nutrients vibing with a tree, and then they're producing mushrooms that are the mushrooms are producing their own distinct spores for that particular mycelium. But like everything underground is kind of messy, because they're all sort of linked. And there can be there can be competition, there can be mutualism, there can be all sorts of weird stuff going on.

Nick VinZant 8:22

Man, so they are they taken over the world. That's what I feel like, it's gonna happen. I feel like this is the next eventual thing is that they then take over the world,

Dr. Gordon Walker 8:30

I would say they already control the world. And I'd say that we just haven't realized it because like I said, they're kind of cryptic, they're kind of hidden. But like if we got rid of fungi, like life wouldn't exist as we know it. And the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize the importance of fungi is that plants as we know them, basically would not exist without fungi. Plants when they came to land as little tiny algae things, how do they colonize? How could How could algae colonize land? Algae needs to be in water, right? One of the first steps was for fungi and algae to team up and become symbiotic. Where the fungi would help them keep water in and provide structure and the algae would do the photosynthesis to make sugars. And that's basically what lichen is. And like him as like the one of the first land organisms, the fungus is able to produce little tiny threads that will creep down into the rock kind of intercalating between cracks in the rock. And then when it rains, those threads swell they crack the rock. And then you just created little shards of rock which over time become dust become soil. And so like life as we know it on this planet was essentially terraforming by plants and fungi. So they don't just take over the world. They are the world. How come

Nick VinZant 9:43

the best thing we figured out so far to do with them then is just eat them.

Dr. Gordon Walker 9:48

We do a lot more than just eat them. I think the promise of eating them is something that like attracts most people because that's your first experience with most mushrooms as many people eat a mushroom they you know Some people like them, some people don't like them like, I got lucky I found a puffball at age five and my mom was like, that's a mushroom, we can eat that and I took it home was like what is the savory marshmallow it's incredible. And that left a big impression on me like wow, that was a cool mushroom. I want to try more. And and so food definitely led me into trying more mushrooms. In terms of like applications for mushrooms, there's there's lots of them we're looking at are sort of poised on the edge of what people are calling a Miko Cultural Revolution. And the idea is essentially that we can start using fungi for a lot more than just food. They are sustainable protein. They can be building materials. You can use mycelium to make shipping packing materials that are biodegradable, that are sustainable, you can use it to make insulation for houses. I've seen people make like canoes and coffins and all sorts of like kitschy things out of it. There's several companies right now that are working on textiles, fabrics, sort of mushroom leather type products, where they want to put them on leather coats and couches and all this stuff. There's tremendous potential in like the space of medicine, therapeutics, because there's all sorts of novel antibiotics. Cytotoxic like cancer drugs, there's like a huge class of molecules that are being explored, explored within fungi, as potential, you know, cures for various diseases. I mean, like statins that people use to control blood pressure, those came from mushrooms, there's all these like lectins and things involved in immune immunity and immune response. So there's a tremendous like, potential for these in the field of health. And there's also mental health and using philosophy to like help people overcome trauma and, and things like that in their lives. So there's a lot more than just eating them.

Nick VinZant 11:34

If to kind of crystallize it for me, on a scale of one to 10, one being like, we don't even know what this thing sticking out of the ground is 10. We've got this figured out any question anyone can imagine we have the answer to it. And then where would you say we are in our knowledge of them? Right now?

Dr. Gordon Walker 11:53

I don't know if I gave you the most authoritative answer on this. But I would say we're somewhere around like five or six. Like we know a lot. I think in the in the overall estimation, we know about 14,000 species of mushrooms right now. It's estimated that there's about 40,000 species of mushrooms. And then in the world of fungi, in general, it's estimated that there's somewhere between like 2.3 and 3.8 million species of fungi out there that like we haven't necessarily gotten a handle on. Because there's, there's mushrooms. And then there's also the yeast and the lichens, and the filamentous. fungi, and there's just in mold. There's like such a vast variety of the different kinds of fungi and most of them are microscopic, so you would never see them as a mushroom necessarily. Mushrooms are clearly sort of like the vanguard of the of the fungal world because they produce these like beautiful fruiting bodies, and they're very, like engaging and you can eat them, you can learn all the stuff about them, it's harder to get interested in something that's like a microscopic mole that you can never really see, you know, but those things can be just as important because they can cause rusts cause like massive amounts of damage in agriculture and caused like huge crop losses all over the world. At the same time, like we spray all these fungicides in our fields to keep fungus away, without realizing that there's this this fungus called weed like Kobe or ustilago made us corn Smite, it's a it's a thing that infects corn kernels. And in America, we think it's nasty. It turns these corn into like sort of big, fleshy, gray looking gall things. And in Mexico, they love it. It's a delicacy. And here in America, we spend fungicides all over the place to get rid of it. And it's like, a fungus is actually making corn more nutritious. It's upping the protein content. It's making it taste better. And yet, like it's this this weird dichotomy of how like, we love to hate fungus, and especially in agriculture and other cultural practices, like people like do all they can to keep it away with sort of forgetting that, you know, this might actually be of benefit to us if we thought about how to better control it and use it as an ally.

Nick VinZant 13:53

So I guess it's just because I kind of think about about it as being like, not clean.

Dr. Gordon Walker 13:58

Yeah, I mean, but nothing is like, quite frankly, like if you have something clean, if you were if you took a baby and brought them up in a clean place, that would be the sickest kid in the world. They would every single allergy, every single like sensitivity. There is something to be said for like letting kids crawl around the dirt. And like, you know, you want to generate an immune response. And like it helps if you get exposure to you know, I frequently when I'm feeling kind of sick, I'll be like, I'm going to go mushroom hunting just because I like that's my happy space. And I'll be like, snotty and feeling awful when I get out there. And then after a couple hours of digging around the soil and smelling mushrooms and touching stuff and being covered in dirt, you'd think I'd feel worse, actually feel better. I come home and I'm like, my stuffy nose is gone. I feel great. My immune system went through the roof.

Nick VinZant 14:41

Okay, so I don't think there's mushrooms living inside of us necessarily, but there are fungi and that kind of stuff that are in us, right.

Dr. Gordon Walker 14:48

There are some kinds of yeast and things. Yeah, we have a fair number of yeast and fungi that live on our skin. And for the most part, they're they're not harmful. We do know about like fungal infections. Everyone's familiar with like a yeast infection that women have to deal with. And like there's various topical skin infections, ringworm and different things you can get on your skin. Most of those are caused not by some awful fungus that's invading you. It's simply something that was there already. And like the balance of your microbial ecosystem got thrown off because there's a change in pH or maybe we're too sweaty for too long, or what you know, there's some growth of bacteria or something that caused a shift and then the fungus fungi are ultimately opportunists. So, mushrooms, and molds and all these things will do what they do best in their environment. But if their environment drastically changes, they're going to do what's best for them. They're not going to keep doing what you want them to do. They're going to keep doing what they want to do. And so that's like coming from the world of winemaking. That's something you see all the time, because that's dependent on a fungus yeast Saccharomyces servicio, where you have this like, giant vat of sugar, and you put the yeast and you want them turn it all the alcohol. The yeast, though, are smart, they're like, you know, we realize if we turn all of the sugar and alcohol, we're going to die. So sometimes the conditions are a little weird, the yeast will shift and say, Yeah, we're not going to finish that last little bit of alcohol, we're going to like, concentrate on trying to survive for like the next round. And winemakers don't like that winemakers like No, no, we want you to finish all of that we want you to blow through, then not leave a bunch of sugar in our wine, because then it's open for spoilage kind of thing. So, again, yeah, yeast are honest, we have it part of our microbiome, but it's all about opportunity and the balance of the ecosystem. So

Nick VinZant 16:26

do they seem to have any kind of an intelligence,

Dr. Gordon Walker 16:29

there's definitely intelligence, it's what they call network intelligence. So it's not intelligence in the way that we think about it, that we have a central brain. But like I said, they have all those little hyphal tips that are growing in the soil, and somehow they're able to all coordinate. So you know, imagine like some sort of like massive transit system that is like self regulating, and like, you know, imagine, you know, the New York subway system, but somehow all the trains know when and where to go kind of on their own. That's an example of like network intelligence. And that's kind of what fungi and slime molds exhibit. So you've heard of slime molds. They're, they're not fungi, technically, they're other little organisms that, you know, you've seen time lapse of them growing through mazes and stuff, they can like navigate mazes and find food and avoid light. They have all these sort of like, examples of intelligence. But they still you know, they can do simple problems, like solve a puzzle and do these various things. But they don't have they don't have a brain. Their effects on molds are one giant cell slime molds, mycelium are different organisms that behave in similar manners. And they both exhibit this this network intelligence and ability to coordinate decisions across you know, distances, without like neuron potentials, or anything else that we understand as thought.

Nick VinZant 17:38

So is that kind of the difference between like actively thinking versus responding to just external stimuli? The fungi don't get together and be like, hey, you know what, there's this property down there. We go down there, there's some great soil for us. Well, I just think they can

Dr. Gordon Walker 17:53

sense because they can be like, Oh, we can tell that there's some good stuff for us to eat down there. So they might intentionally move down there because they're, that's closer chemotaxis they're moving towards something that they want. So they can sense that. Are they making like a conscious decision? Maybe not. I like to think of it as like, you know, you see one of those like producer music boards from like, a studio, and there's all the little like levels and dials and stuff like that. Yeah, I think for me, that's kind of how I think about it's like, there's some level of like, messing with the dials, where they're like, Okay, we've hit enough, you know, the levels are up, we're gonna go, we're gonna go for it. Right? If they have enough of the stimuli that says, do this thing or move away from this thing, they'll start doing that in an active way you can even like, there's examples of where if you put like a fungi on a plate, and you give it a food source, it'll move towards the food source. And because what it does is mycelium grows in all directions equally until it finds food and then it concentrates all its resources on the food. Right? So it's growing all equally until it finds something and then it puts everything into that that food source because it's like there's food there. If you then pick up the food source, clean away the mycelium and put the food source back. Mycelium will remember where the food source was and grow towards it again. So like it has memory, even though it doesn't have a brain, which I think is really cool. Yeah, I'm

Nick VinZant 19:08

going back to they're taking over the world man.

Dr. Gordon Walker 19:12

They already took over the world. We live in their world. It's we just don't see them.

Nick VinZant 19:17

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure shoot. Best fungi slash mushroom.

Dr. Gordon Walker 19:24

It's a tough one because I have to qualify it like I have so many favorites and it shifts constantly based a little bit on season. I definitely do have a few favorites. morels are excellent. There's this thing called butter blades that are incredible. I get one here in Napa called emanate of Llosa that I absolutely love. Those are some of my favorite edibles. There's also really cool mushrooms I just like take photos of there's things called high nelum which are a little tough, bitter sort of polypore to fungi but they have these droplets of what's called quotation or liquid on them. You might have seen like the bleeding tooth fungi, it just looks absolutely unreal and crazy. and really cool. So those are some of my favorites. And I know there's there's so many things out there that can just be utterly mind blowing because you come across them. You don't even recognize them as a mushroom. And then you find out later like, Oh, that was fungus like, whoa. So

Nick VinZant 20:12

most overrated like, ah, somebody's talking about portabello. Again, everybody, so great, but it's a jerk or something like that.

Dr. Gordon Walker 20:22

I mean, just just as a side note, I like Agaricus bisporus is what portabello cremini and but mushrooms are all the same species of mushroom. They're just grown in slightly different ways or slightly different strain of the same thing. I think like the fact that everybody thinks that's what mushrooms are, that makes them a little overrated because it's like, there's like, hundreds of delicious mushrooms. There's hundreds of bad mushroom soup, there's like, you know, something like 40,000 mushrooms and only like a couple 100 on each end are gonna be edible or poisonous. And everything else in between is just a mushroom. I'd say maybe overrated mushroom, like, people absolutely love Shawn trails, and they're good. But they're not like, they're not the best. You know, I think people tend to hold things in certain regard because they are familiar with them. Even porcine people really, really like this sort of big kimberlites and porcini. But some of my favorite mushrooms are ones that people aren't necessarily aware of. Because they're not as highly regarded. They're not as highly touted. So I think certain things kind of get over represented. emanate a muscaria is another one that like, I think people get so stoked on it, because it's that classic red little white dots on it. It's poisonous, but it's not deadly toxic. And so there's just a lot of like misconceptions out there around certain mushrooms.

Nick VinZant 21:39

Dem. Which one do you think of like you look at and you say, Oh, that one has a lot of potential?

Dr. Gordon Walker 21:45

I mean, are you talking like for biotechnology, you're talking for food, you're talking for environmental restoration. But well, the potential all of the

Nick VinZant 21:52

above I guess, and the asking really hard like, okay, however you want to define potential?

Dr. Gordon Walker 21:58

Sure. So I think right now, some of the most interesting mushrooms are what are called White rot fungi. So those are mushrooms that have evolved to digest wood. And there's several levels of mushrooms that digest wood, there's white rot, brown rot and then like composters. So this is like first secondary and tertiary SAP probes. White rot fungi are things that can break down lignin, which is a really complex polymer in wood, that crosslinks cellulose and gives it wood its structure, its its density. And why rot fungi have these very advanced enzymes to break down lignin because it's a super complex molecule. And so we've been harnessing the power of white rot fungi, and this is stuff like oyster mushrooms, Ganoderma, reishi, mushrooms, Lion's Mane, these kinds of things, to mine enzymes to do making biofuels to do other like industrial processes. We've also been looking at them to do like bio remediation of like carbon compounds. So like, certain people out there have shown that in a lab, you can get like an oyster mushrooms, eat like cigarette butts, or potentially eat hydrocarbons and oil pollution, it's really difficult to actually translate that kind of practice into a wild situation, because they've tried to like take oyster mushrooms and put them on an oil spill. They don't do what you want them to do, because oyster mushrooms do what they want to do, not what you want them to do. But I do think there's tremendous potential, as you said, to capture the power and chemistry of some of these white rot fungi and use them as allies and fighting climate change and trying to sort of make sense of the mess we've made of the world.

Nick VinZant 23:35

follow this up with a lighthearted one. Do you consider Toad from Mario to be a mushroom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 23:42

Yeah, I think he's pretty clearly an avenue to muscaria. You know, he's a little guy. So

Nick VinZant 23:47

is he the most famous mushroom based character?

Dr. Gordon Walker 23:51

Oh, he might be you know, I mean, the Mario Mushroom is definitely like the one that everybody knows. And that's part of why ama muscaria is so well. You know, recognized around the world.

Nick VinZant 24:01

I guess I can't think of any other famous mushrooms.

Dr. Gordon Walker 24:04

There's there's plenty in like animaIs. And like, I'm amazed once you start recognizing mushrooms, you start noticing them everywhere, because it's like, I've talked to people who are like their hikers, professional hikers or something like that. And they've gone like the whole Pacific Crest Trail and stuff like that. Like do you see any mushrooms? They're like, No, didn't notice any ever. And then you're like, well here, look at my Instagram. Look at these pictures of mushrooms. And the next thing I know for like, weeks on end, people are just DMing me pictures of mushrooms every day. And I'm like, Yeah, I know. I told you they're everywhere. You just like have to key into it. And I feel like it's kind of the same thing with media you you've watched shows and movies and things where there's mushrooms in them and not realize it was a mushroom until you're like oh my gosh, that's a mushroom.

Nick VinZant 24:41

Best place to find them

Dr. Gordon Walker 24:44

in the woods, after rain. You know the mushrooms do grow everywhere. You can find them in the desert. You can find them in the Arctic you can find them pretty much anywhere you can imagine. But you there's a few basic things that really help if you have plants around so they have carbon to eat. and you have lots of water you're going to need rain or at least some snow, melt, moisture, humidity etc. to to get the mushrooms to grow because that is the biggest trigger right is the Mycelium is down in the soil. If it doesn't have any water, it's not going to swell. If the water goes down and mycelium swells up, that's when it says okay, now is an appropriate time to previous to the fruiting body. And that's because mushrooms need moisture to develop. And the spores when they come out, need moisture to kind of germinate nucleate and go down into the soil and start growing again to continue the mycorrhizal network.

Nick VinZant 25:33

Does that always happen super fast like I you know, 1000 Boom, there they are, or is it just you don't notice it until they're done.

Dr. Gordon Walker 25:41

So there's some mushrooms that like come up and disappear within like 24 hours, there's this class of mushrooms called Ink caps, which are like generally little tiny things will grow in which ships there's some bigger ones too. But they'll come up and essentially melt. They don't they don't even disperse their scores by when they just like they come up in their cap turns to black goo and it melts and drops all over the ground. And that can happen in like 24 or 48 hours. That's that's a really fast cycle. A lot of mushrooms will be they'll come up and kind of exist for about a week or two. And then they'll get moldy and rotting and full of bugs and to kind of just like disappear into the forest floor. And then there's stuff like poly pores that can you know, persist for an entire year, maybe five years, you know, there's this one called the Gary con, which can live for like 80 to 100 years on a tree. It's parasitic on the tree, but very, very weakly so. So it's like year after year, it's building layers on layers on layers, which is one of the things you can go to the forest and you'll see lots of stuff that are like conks on trees, and more often on if they're on the side of trails, some will come by and knock it off. And that always upsets me because I'm like, you know, that comp could live for another like 20 years. But somebody just thought to be clever to like whack it off.

Nick VinZant 26:46

Like I didn't know they had such a long lifespan.

Dr. Gordon Walker 26:49

Some of them. Yeah, I mean, that's that's so he's talking about the medical potential for fungi along those poly pores because they're so long lives are full of antibiotics, of cytotoxic compounds that can fight cancers, they have really complex like polysaccharide linkages that can help stimulate our immune system. And that's because those things are built to last right? They're mushrooms that have evolved to not get molded over eaten by bugs, they're going to exist for like 2030 4050 years. So they're full of stuff that's really good at keeping the mushroom whole, and we can take those compounds and use them as medicines and therapeutics.

Nick VinZant 27:25

How can I tell if they're poisonous? That's what I've always wanted to like pick one up.

Dr. Gordon Walker 27:32

Okay, so So behind me, I have two posters, can you tell which ones poisonous?

Nick VinZant 27:36

The one on the bottom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 27:40

The one on top, actually, but that's kind of my point is I get this question. A lot of people say, hey, how do you tell what's poisonous? What's not? And I say you don't? Everyone just wants a rule of thumb. And for fungi, there is no such thing. And I know that's a disappointing answer, but try rephrasing it as this. The way you learn what's edible, and what's toxic is by learning one mushroom at a time. And the way I like to think about this is it's like playing an RPG. When you start an RPG, you have one spell you have fireball and all you can do is spam fireball, you know, you kill the zombie spam fireball, but eventually you level up because you're other killing zombies you gain experience. And then suddenly, wow, I just learned lightning now you can cast fireball and lightning. And then as your other casting fireball and lightning you like pick up another spell. And so mushroom hunting is very much the same thing. You got to learn like one good edible mushroom to start. And there's a few really easy ones you can learn something like chicken the woods is this big orangey yellow poly core, it grows on trees. If you find a big orange ELA Polyvore growing on a tree, it's the only thing that looks like that it's going to be a tip or a certificate the woods. If you learn that, then maybe you can learn a Shawn Trail, which is a little bit more complicated. It does have a few look alikes, but you can kind of like, as you get along in your mushroom journey, you learn more and more spells more and more mushrooms. And you also as you're learning the edible ones, you start to learn the toxic ones. And that's how you kind of start to build this repertoire.

Nick VinZant 28:59

Where do you think this goes? Like? What do you think the future holds?

Dr. Gordon Walker 29:02

I think the future is hopefully bright for our partnership with fungi. I think there's a lot of challenges that we have to face with what's happened with our climate. And I think like the human influence on this planet is being felt more and more and it's like the people who are still saying that the climate change hasn't occurred are they're going to become in the minority. Because as the world fundamentally changes as our food system changes, the weather changes, we're going to have to adapt, or we're going to die as a species and I think fungi because they were some of the original terraforming of this planet are going to be one of the main pillars of how we actually try to recapitulate ecosystems, we have to go to Superfund sites and reforest them we have to sink massive amounts of carbon to stop our planet from becoming too hot to be habitable, basically, and fungi are a huge part of how we're gonna be able to buffer the environment. We're gonna be able to like use them to help reseed plants we're going to be producing sustainable foods you know, there's there's too much animal agriculture. You're going on right now I'm I'm an omnivore. I don't think that we should all go vegan. But I do think it would help if everybody in the country could cut their meat consumption in half, and supplement that with mushrooms. I think the other big thing we'd get out of that wouldn't be just like a positive boon for the climate, we'd see a huge improvement in health too, because fungi have a massive amount of dietary fiber in them. And that's the thing people don't realize how little fiber they're getting in their diet. And like when I say fiber, I don't mean go and eat a box of Wheaties and like have a very uncomfortable BM like I'm talking about like fiber that we need to live and feel full feel satiated, to stock good bacteria in our guts. And I think fungi are absolutely essential source of nutrients that had been largely ignored because people kind of just look at them like the cheap Agaricus by sports a little button mushrooms you buy in a store are not appealing to enough people who have them want to eat them every meal. And so like what I'd love to see is a much larger selection of edible fungi become more available become you know, easier to access in terms of price and availability. And and really see people eat more mushrooms because I think health would improve. And I think we could really help our environment by shifting some of our protein needs to to fumble bass stuff.

Nick VinZant 31:11

This isn't, you know, your area of specialization necessarily, but I think the question is an obvious one whenever we're talking about mushrooms. Right now, there seems to be a big push to kind of move into the was it the psychedelic ones? Do you do you see potential there? Is this kind of a fad?

Dr. Gordon Walker 31:29

I think it's a lot more than a fad. I mean, I think the sad thing is that like we were there in the 70s. And then it was like Nixon for very racist reasons decided to shut down, you know, start a war on drugs that was like, essentially just an excuse to put people in prison. Certainly, if you look at the history of it. Right now, what we're seeing is, you know, stuff like Michael Pollan's book, The Johns Hopkins studies are some really major momentum moving towards showing the value and efficacy of psilocybin and psychedelics in general towards mental health. We certainly have a mental health crisis in this country, you know, the number of people who had issues and can't find proper help, you know, if you've tried to look for a therapist or some like that, it's very difficult and most people can't afford it, don't have the time don't have the access, etc. I don't think psychedelics are a silver bullet, I think that there's a little bit too much kind of projected onto them that they can somehow solve all your problems you still need to go through like the work and the effort of actually tackling your problems. And I think taking psychedelics in a therapeutic setting is going to be where they're going to be most effective, rather than people just kind of like going off on like, Vision quests in the desert kind of thing that because that can be dangerous, and like certainly, like psychedelics are very powerful and they can cause like a mental break, they can they could make you very unwell. Although they are generally very safe drugs compared to like other drugs out there, you can't really OD on one, but you can have a mental psychotic break as a result of taking them in inappropriate setting, or inappropriate dosage or you know, without proper support kind of thing. So I think there is massive potential for it. And I'm really excited to see like Oregon passes 109 measure, so they're gonna actually there's not in place yet. But within like the next two years, they have to have a system for there to be assisted psychedelic therapy appointments happening in Oregon. And there's a lot of places that are decriminalizing. So like, Oakland and Berkeley have done it, Denver's done it and arbour Santa Cruz, there's a number of cities and municipalities and even counties around the country that have started decriminalizing psychedelics, and specifically psilocybin to because it has a lot of potential to help people. And from what we've seen, it has very little downside, right? If you can cure someone's alcoholism in one or two sessions, that's a lot better for society than letting that person continue to like, you know, relapse in and out of stuff until they eventually get in a car accident, kill somebody, you know, so there's, there's real potential,

Nick VinZant 33:51

staying kind of in that similar area, but also more entertainment, the broader topic of it, do a lot of mushrooms have that chemical or genetic makeup or whatever that is that or is that unique to that specific kind of mushroom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 34:06

It's not unique. So it's, I mean, psilocybin is just an alkaloid. And there's a lot of different like mushrooms contain a lot of alkaloids and plants due to alkaloids are compounds that some of them are bitter and poisonous, and some of them are trippy. Some of them are just, you know, whatever they are. Psilocybin is mostly present in philosophy mushrooms, which is the the genre of mushrooms, there's a bunch of different species of philosophy and they grow all over the place. The most common one is one called Philosophy cubensis. That's what people are generally growing in, you know, things as as magic mushrooms. The native range of those is like Florida, Cuba, sort of the south east, they like really tropical warm regions. And so if you see philosophy elsewhere, it's probably a different species, the majority of philosophy or little wood decay fungi that are growing in like witchy pet so like all around the Bay Area, we get philosophy growing, but it's outside of like a Bank of America or like a apartment complex or something like that. It's like well watered woodchip beds where they occur, which is hilarious to me because I'm like, the legality of those things is a very weird gray area because you can't make a mushroom you can't make a plant that exists in nature illegal, it's it's there. It's only illegal if we go pick it with the intention of consuming it as a drug, if you picked it without knowing what it was, if you're like a landscaping guy, and you're like, oh, I want to get rid of all these mushrooms. That's not illegal. It's only illegal once you pick it with the intention. And that's the weird, legal gray area, right? Because if you're out hunting around a Bank of America and a cops like what are you doing? You're like, I don't know, I'm, I don't know what I'm doing. It's not illegal. But if you're like, I know what I'm doing, then it's illegal. Right? There are there are other genre of mushrooms that contain psilocybin, there's some pinellia species, there's some gianopolous species, there's actually a fair number of mushrooms that contain very, very, very small amounts of psilocybin. But usually psilocybin is peat, not heat stable. So if you cook a mushroom, you've cooked, you know, this is a good reason do you want to cook most emotion because you want to cook the toxins out? More often than not, there's bad stuff that could hurt you, if you you know, are eating a mushroom raw, so it's a really good idea to cook all your mushrooms. So lots of it would be an exception, because you actually want the psilocybin intentionally but it could also be quite upsetting if you were to eat something, not knowing that there's psilocybin and that would not that would be you know, getting that's where the mental break comes in. Because you think you're just having dinner. Next thing, you know, you're tripping.

Nick VinZant 36:20

Um, that's all the questions I got, man. Is there anything you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you? Oh, geez.

Dr. Gordon Walker 36:25

Well, I do social media on Instagram and YouTube and tick tock, and I think my main goal is to present visually engaging mushroom content that stirs up people's emotions. And I do some I don't know, if you've seen what I do. I know you talked to some risque people, but I have some sort of risque mushroom videos as well. I even have an only fun guy. And I think you know where to find that it is a it's only fun guy. But I have I put some of my more risky things on there. I realized that like me, making videos of talking about mushrooms, takes a lot of effort out of me and I had to like add them, put them together and stuff like good on camera and make a video work. Or sometimes I find a jelly fungus. And I can kind of just squish my finger around in it. And it makes a very intimate sounding noise and people like that or, or hate it. Either way, it causes an emotional response. And the whole point is to get them to stick around long enough to actually read the caption and hopefully learn some information. So I kind of have fun being a little subversive on social media and pushing people's buttons just a slight bit. So

Nick VinZant 37:26

I want to thank Dr. Walker so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him and learn even more about fungi, we have linked to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now, let's go ahead and bring in John Shaw. Do you feel like people generally listen to you?