Screenwriter Michael Jamin

From King of the Hill and Tacoma FD to Wilfred, Maron and Rules of Engagement, Screenwriter Michael Jamin has worked on some of Hollywood’s most recognizable sitcoms. We talk how to become a screenwriter, what it’s really like in a writer’s room and the future of television. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Scariest Things in Life.

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Pointless: 38:20ish

Top 5: 58:01ish

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Interview with Screenwriter Michael Jamin

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, screenwriting, and this scariest things in life,

Michael Jamin 0:23

the first one is the hardest. You can't get an agent without a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot of a hustling that I started out as a production assistant. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. I think a better question to ask is, how do I write a script? That's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest writes the stuff you see on TV, everything from King of the Hill, and Tacoma FD to Marin, Wilfred, rules of engagement. He's been a writer on some of Hollywood's most recognizable sitcoms. This is screenwriter Michael Jackson. So obviously, once you get established in the industry, you kind of get jobs off your reputation. But how do you get that first job as a TV writer?

Michael Jamin 1:25

Yeah, that's the first one is the hardest, you can't get an agent got a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot about hustling that. I started as a production assistant, on on TV shows, you know, so I was basically a golfer, I would do whatever the boss wanted me to do. And after doing that for a couple of years, you know, I was I was able to say, Hey, can I pitch you an idea for a show? And they're like, you know, that's a that's a very tentative thing to do. Because, you know, you're, you're, that's not why you're hired. But I had really great bosses. And my partner had a writing partner, and we sold they were they were running a show called Lois and Clark, which was the Superman show that with Dean came in geriatric. And so that was they bought an episode of that. And that was my that was my first kind of big break.

Nick VinZant 2:08

When somebody is a TV writer, or a writer for any kind of thing. Are you writing the entire episode slash series? Are you like, Alright, I'm a TV writer. I wrote this one joke in a sitcom. Oh, no.

Michael Jamin 2:20

How does that work? Yeah, you want your you want to be a staff writer, you want to be on staff of a TV show, and a TV show might have like a sitcom I'd have anywhere between, on average, eight or 10. Writers. And you work as a group and you come up with ideas, you flesh them out into stories. And once it's all fleshed out, one writer, or a team of writers will go off and write that episode. So they'll be responsible for writing an outline, that a first draft, maybe a second draft, and the second draft will come back to the writers room. And all the writers work together to rewrite it to kind of quality control it so that you can ever tell one episode of television is written by one writer versus another right? It's kind of it's like, as a viewer watching at home when they go, Oh, this is just an average episode of TV that I might have my favorite show or whatever. And then there's the head writer, the head writer kind of is in charge of basically determine what gets into the script, but doesn't wander the show ideas but what gets made what doesn't. And he or she's is the boss. So that's the that's we call that the showrunner. So in TV, the showrunner is the boss, the show the director answers to the showrunner with the writers answer to the show, what are the actors? You know, I guess they want they want to get the show into the performance that the that the showrunner wants, so he or she is the boss. So it kind

Nick VinZant 3:29

of sounds a little bit like a group project. But somebody puts their name on it at the end?

Michael Jamin 3:34

Yeah, one writers is,

Nick VinZant 3:35

yeah, does most of the heavy lifting. Now is everybody in a room before COVID.

Michael Jamin 3:39

But you were literally in a writers room and you'd be on a sitcom, you'd be stuck in a room with these writers for at least 12 hours a day, sometimes much longer. These writers rooms, the ones I've worked in, are some of the funniest people you've ever met. I mean, these are the best of the best. And so, you know, you can be howling with laughter You spend your whole day just howling with laughter if you're doing your job, right. If you're not, there's a lot of silence, and a lot of when are we gonna get out of here? But yeah, it's collaborative. With that

Nick VinZant 4:07

kind of an effort though. Like how come some come some TV shows? They just they they don't work?

Michael Jamin 4:12

Yeah, right. Well, some of that's due to who the showrunner is who the boss is, some of it's because the network is gives a lot of notes, they have involvement. Sometimes you have an actor who's a big star who won't do something they want to do what they want to do. So there's a you know, it's it's like, everyone wants to say every everyone that I read a kind of umbrella guy named Charlie Hawk wrote a book about this in his analogy, he was a sitcom writer, his analogy was perfect. And he said, it's like, everyone wants to have a hit show. And it's like being in a lifeboat in a rowboat, and you're trying to get the same direction, but everywhere, everyone's wrong in a different direction. The actor is going this way. And the stars going into the showrunner this way and the writers in the network. And so it's like, if you can't get that boat moving in the same direction. It's a real problem. But every One has an ego and everyone, so and everyone has a different wants and needs. So

Nick VinZant 5:03

for you, when you sit down to write something like what's your process?

Michael Jamin 5:09

Well, I write, I write with a writing partner most of the time. So for television show, so we'll come up if it really depends if it's a show, it's on the air for to refer to, if we have a pilot that we're trying to sell, you know, that's a different thing. But it's usually coming up with, if we're on a staff of a TV show, the first thing you have to do is figure out, you have to break the story, you have to figure out what the story is about. And you go to a whiteboard. And you have Act One, act two, act three, and the writers will all pitch well, but what if it starts with what if? And then the showrunner will side of that idea has enough meat on its bones? And then if it does, you start fleshing it out a little bit. And that just coming up with the idea, and and seeing if there's enough meat on the bones that can easily take three to five days before before one word is written,

Nick VinZant 5:52

how then how long would it take to write an episode like, okay, from the start the conception of the idea to the very end, right? Not obviously, for the episode to air, but like this is written and done,

Michael Jamin 6:03

it can easily take from the from the beginning, when someone first has raised their hand and says, I have an idea to when you start shooting, activate, you actually start shooting the episode, it can easily be six weeks, then yeah, it's about quality control. It's about making sure every this story actually works. And that every line is as funny as it can be. And it's a lot of rehearsal, there's a lot of rewriting a 90% of writing is rewriting. So it's really about making sure it works.

Nick VinZant 6:29

Do you kind of when you write something, do you wait for inspiration? Or do you have a time like, alright, nine o'clock, sitting down, and something's coming out,

Michael Jamin 6:37

if you wait for inspiration, you will go hungry? Because I get paid, per episode produced. And a point if like, I can't sell the network, you know, inspiration didn't strike this week, let's just air color bars instead of the TV show. You know, that's not an acceptable answer. So there's no such thing as writer's block or waiting for inspiration. You have to, it's a job you have to you have to make your episode of television. So you fall back on your skills, and you fall back on on your training to get that episode done.

Nick VinZant 7:05

Is whenever you're talking about something creative, though, like that, is it something can you learn to do it? Or is it like you either got it? Or you don't? Right? Because I wouldn't think that people can learn to be funny. You're either funny, or you're not? Yeah, but

Michael Jamin 7:18

you can learn to be funnier. So you're right, you have to be funny, but you can learn to be funny, or you can hone your craft, you know, like, I'm definitely much better writer than it was 26 years ago when I broke in. But I remember, I was working on a show called King of the Hill, as a writer, you know, back in 2001. And the planes flew into the World Trade Center. And all those that tragedy was horrible, because people died was just horrific. And we didn't go to work that day, because everyone thought you into the pot, the country is coming apart. But the next day, we had to go to work. And we had to write comedy. And I assure you, none of the writers were in any mood to write comedy for that day, that week, or that month, or even subsequent like, it just felt wrong and disrespectful. So felt sacrilegious. So many people had died. And we knew that the world had changed, like no one wanted to write comedy. But we all had to because that's the job. And so, you know, you fall back on your training to make to write me a computer instead of someone would pitch a joke, and no one would laugh, but someone would say okay, yeah, that's funny, we could do that. It was very somber. Yeah, that's a good idea. We can do that. And now when you look back at those episodes that we shot, back, then I don't think you'd know, you would realize it was shot during a time of national grief and mourning. You just wouldn't.

Nick VinZant 8:28

Is it when you write something? Obviously, it's different. If you're talking about you know, you're in your second or third or fourth season or whatever. But are you generally do you know who you're writing it for? Like, I'm writing this for this actor?

Michael Jamin 8:41

Yeah, I mean it but if it's a pilot that we're selling, we have an actor in mind. But it that's really just to get a voice. So you're thinking, Okay, what's this is what the voice is what the character is, like, when it comes to casting more often than not far more often that you're not going to get that actor you had in mind. There's an audition process and everyone involved has a say, and, and so once you cast the actor that you get, who's close enough to that part, then the role will the role naturally start changing if it goes to series because you start writing to the actors strengths, and you steer away from their weaknesses. So that'll definitely change

Nick VinZant 9:17

kind of brought this up a little bit earlier. But I think the question that everybody wonders is like, how much do you get paid?

Michael Jamin 9:23

Enough? It depends on it. Honestly, it depends on your level. So staff writers, the lowest level and then it goes all the way up to co executive producer and executive producer that's in TV that's the highest level then the the showrunners kind of like executive producer and the creator. So there are Writers Guild, the Writers Guild that sets the minimums and that will change whether you're doing a half hour show an hour long show cable streaming network every there's different rates. It's a falls in a whole different range. And you I get paid per episode produced. So if the show is doing 22 episodes, I make a lot of money. If the show is only eight episodes on on cable, that's obviously a lot less money. So it just depends.

Nick VinZant 10:07

And then residuals like, how does that work? Because you get continued to get paid, right?

Michael Jamin 10:11

If the show sells somewhere like they start, you know, yeah, if it's if it reruns somewhere, and the writer of that episode, we get paid a residual. And that also is negotiated by the Writers Guild. And so it's standard across the board. So I don't have to say, hey, you know, this show, it's not like, the writers on friends will get more money in residuals than writers on some show you never heard of, it's just that their episodes will air more often. And so though that great, will it keep? You know, okay, well keep getting a check more often. But the actual amount is the same.

Nick VinZant 10:45

Our most writers struggling or if you've got like a good, or you do you do pretty well,

Michael Jamin 10:51

it, you know, it, it's gotten harder over the years, because the series orders have gotten shorter. So if you're working on a show that only does eight episodes, a season, that's a lot harder to make a living than one that would do 22 episodes. So when I broke into the business, there were four networks, there's ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox, basically, and some smaller cable channels. And so it was, I think it was easier than to make a living than is now because you could be on a hit show now, but it only does eight episodes a season. Right? You could be on Barry, which is on HBO, I don't know. Maybe they do 10 or something hit show, but they're not working that much. So once you get off that shit, so you have to, you have to hopefully sell a pilot in between or maybe pick up another job in between that, that the schedule is aligned so that you can go back to your hit show.

Nick VinZant 11:37

I'm fascinated by logistics. And when I look at places like all the streaming services, like are there enough writers to write all this stuff?

Michael Jamin 11:45

There are bad in Hollywood, the number of working writers, his soul is just a little bit more than the number of active players in the NFL. Okay, so it's about the same, maybe a little bit more. It's in the 1000s. But yeah, it's it's not a ton of it's very competitive. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 12:04

But why is it? Why is it still that competitive win for me for somebody looking on the outside is like MIT, there's 1000s of shows on each one of these streaming platforms? And like, why is it still so competitive? When it seems like we got it? What are the math there doesn't seem to work out right 1000s of shows eight to 10 people.

Michael Jamin 12:22

But ya know, if it's a smaller show, so my partner and I ran a show called Marin on IFC, which is critical. Not many people saw it as critically, the critics loved it. But the first seat it was a low budget show, the first season, there are only four of us as writers, only four writers, me and my partner, the star of the show, Mark Marin, and one of the young staff writer. And so it's not a lot of people, as the show, as the show progressed over the year of the couple of the seasons, we had four seasons, we added more writers, but okay, you can remember. So I'm talking about working writers at any given time. So if you're, if your shows on the or you're working, you know, if you're shooting at your shows on the air, but then it wraps, and now you're not a working writer anymore. Now you have to become working, right? So there's all these shows, but they're not like, they're not working all around around the clock. They're not, you know, around this around the year,

Nick VinZant 13:06

like what's the percentage of people who would try to do this and fail?

Michael Jamin 13:12

Well, you know, breaking into how they was one thing, making a career out of it is quite another. So there are definitely writers who, who break in and they're on a show, then they flame out. They never work again. That's not uncommon. Or they work out, they flee and they work again, another five years later, it's just you know, it's so to make a career out of it. It's like to me, I'm like, I'm the that football player in the NFL. Wow, that guy is still playing good for him. It's been kicking around that, you know, that guy. Wow. Okay, I thought he was gonna him. He's still around. Okay.

Nick VinZant 13:45

How come people don't last right? Are they just relying on like a confluence of events to be a good job, or they just only have so many certain ideas or how come you know,

Michael Jamin 13:54

sometimes it's a talent, sometimes it's just not good enough to last sometimes it's a that's just the way the luck will be like breaks. Like if you get on a hit show, and you work for 10 years blue, good for you, you know, but as a young staff writer, and you break into a show, and it goes for 10 years, you got it made, but you could also break onto a show that that only goes like three episodes before getting cancelled. And that's that's the way the cookie crumbles. And the fact that the show is a hit, when you're young writer, you really have very little say over the show becomes a hit or a giant failure. You're You're too young and inexperienced, you don't really have that kind of control. You're just trying to keep up and learn. And so a lot of that is luck.

Nick VinZant 14:33

Obviously, you don't have to name names or anything like that. But can you think of people in your experience that you would say like, you know, they were a great writer and things just didn't work out for them?

Michael Jamin 14:41

Yeah, that definitely happens and I can think of people who are not great writers and things didn't work out for them. So there's a little bit of ball

Nick VinZant 14:48

um, we got a bunch of listener submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Michael Jamin 14:54

All right, listeners see what you can do.

Nick VinZant 14:56

Show you knew that would be a hit show you knew would be A bus show you weren't sure of.

Michael Jamin 15:02

I was. Yeah, I knew my, when I read this pilot episode of Modern Family, oh, that's going to be a hit. I loved it. I love just loved it. And that was written by Steven Levitan, who my partner and I worked for, just shoot me. So he created just shoot me. And then we read the pilot script from our family, we were at the time, my partner Ray, we're running a show called Glenmark, DDS on Nick at Night. And so that was kind of a big step for us. Because we were, we were the bosses and we had seen if you saw the script for Modern Family Law, that's going to be ahead. But I mean, I really should, you had to take that back, I knew it was going to be a good show, I didn't know is going to be a hit. Because there's just so many things that are outside of the control of of the show, you know, the the quality script was good. I didn't know that they were going to get the great actors, that sometimes doesn't happen. Sometimes the cast doesn't gel. And sometimes the network will put it on a bad time slot or won't, they won't let allow the show to grow long enough to allow it to become a head sometimes they get canceled. Sometimes good shows get cancelled before they could become a hit. So, but it became a hit.

Nick VinZant 16:03

Any show that you knew like that this this, this is a show that you were working on?

Michael Jamin 16:08

Yeah, like, absolutely. And I've done some of those. And I got this is not going to be a hit. But the job worked out well in terms of my schedule. And so I got we, my partner had, we had one job, and then the show wrapped and we had some time before it came up again. And so we had this big break in our schedule, and we go okay, this is good. You can this is we can make some money here. Even though the show is not going to be a hit doesn't matter. I can you know, I get paid to be to write, so I'm going to write on it.

Nick VinZant 16:34

Any show that you were on that you just had no idea. Like this could go either way.

Michael Jamin 16:40

Um, that's kind of every show because most of it like I said, it's one thing to make a good show and it's something for it become a hit. So I worked. We worked on a show called out of practice, which was on CBS was a sitcom with starring Henry Winkler Ty Burrell. Before he was Phil on Modern Family, stocker Channing and Chris Gorham and Paula Marshall, it was a great cast. And the head writers were joking and Chris Lloyd, to Chris ran Frazier for many, many years. incredibly, incredibly talented writer, Joe as well, like the writing staff was like the opposite. It was the fact that we were chosen for this, to be hired to this writing staff was kind of an honor because it was an all star, they could choose anybody. It was an all star team to be on the show. And I thought the show was excellent. It was really funny. A lot of heart. The network just it didn't give it enough chance to grow the numbers. And so as I thought it was canceled way before its time, and it was a shame, but it could have gone either way. Excellent show that no one really saw.

Nick VinZant 17:43

favorite character you've ever written for?

Michael Jamin 17:47

Oh, you know, I've written I can't say a favorite character. I really can't that would be insulting. I love writing for Nina Van Horn I just shoot me but also David Spade I've written for him on two different shows. Just Shoot Me and and rules of engagement as a writer on that as well. But Mark marron she's, you know, he was an amazing, amazing character and brave. I like writing, we like writing for stand ups, because they're very, they tend to be very brave. And they'll like, as long as he gets a laugh, they're like, I'll do that they're not too worried about their image. Whereas actors might kind of think, well, I don't want people to think that about me, but stand up. So like, I'll do it. So he was a pleasure to write for for four years. But there's so much I'm just I'm singling out like, there's so many. The show I'm currently working on is Tacoma, FD. And the guys who are the actors, Kevin Hefner, and Steve Lemmy. They're the stars, but also the head writers of the show and their pleasure. They're just a pleasure to work for and write for, and they're in the writers room the whole time, and you pitch them a joke or story idea. And you say, say this, that what would happen if you say, and they'll say, oh, that's hilarious. And you're actually the actors actually saying, you know, this is going to work because you're the star and I can tell it's going to work because you just set it. So that's, that's a pleasure, too.

Nick VinZant 19:02

We don't we don't get into politics on this show. And we'll try to have this conversation, I guess, without getting into politics, necessarily. But when you see kind of the Kancil culture that's coming about, right, do you when he as a rider, like do you take that into account? Would you say like, oh, we can't do that? Because this might happen? Or do you purposely like Go for

Michael Jamin 19:23

it? Yeah, no, there's there's much more sensitivity now in terms of, you know, hurt hurting people, you know, he never he never really wanted to hurt people. But when we when we started off, on just shoot me years ago, the rule of thumb was in the writers room, you could say anything you wanted, even no matter how offensive it was, as long as it was funny, as long as it got a laugh in the room in the writers room. And that was kind of the role and then then now we're a little more sensitive, you don't want to hurt people and that's kind of a little more awareness. Yeah, so it's a balancing act. You know, you don't you definitely won't hurt people but you also want to entertain

Nick VinZant 19:59

kind of one of theirs. Like if everybody goes, Oh, I don't know, then yeah,

Michael Jamin 20:02

like, right. Yeah. But I'm not going to worry about the wackos out there.

Nick VinZant 20:07

Hardest season to write. I think what this person means is in terms of like, alright, so you have a show that runs for five seasons like which one of those is the hardest season? Like the first one? The last one? The?

Michael Jamin 20:18

Yeah, the first one can be the most the most difficult because you get a lot into first the writers are still trying to find the show. The first step is you're like, Well, what is the show what you know, and also what dynamics are working within the between the characters. And until you find that you can be flailing and you get also the network is worried it's a big investment, these shows cost a lot of money. So that network wants to protect their investment, you got a lot of interference, but once the show, finds its legs and finds its audience and the network feels Oh, okay, we can calm down. Now we know it's working, things tend to get a little easier.

Nick VinZant 20:51

You know, I always hear these things about right like the network, the boss's the man, that kind of thing. All over the place. When they have notes or criticisms of shows, do you generally understand where they're coming from? Or people like what?

Michael Jamin 21:05

No, is the notes tend to be very similar. And the notes, if they can't, it's not like the network. These executives know how to do your job they have, they have a job, they know how to do their job, but they don't know how to do my job because they're not writers. So a lot of times they want reassurance, they just want to know that the show is in good hands. And if you can, they have an objection. And if you can explain it, then they go, Okay, I see your point. Sometimes their notes are valid, and you go okay, I don't really think about that. Let me rethink the episode and, and we can address your notes or at least addressed the spirit of the note. But usually it's well intentioned. It's not like they're trying to they're not trying to be jerks. You know, they're trying to help.

Nick VinZant 21:42

Best written TV show currently. And if it's one of yours, say it's one of yours.

Michael Jamin 21:46

Oh, well, that's written TV show. Well, I don't know. But currently, I thought I thought fleabag was a masterpiece. And you know, that was a couple years ago, but I thought it was beautifully written and it felt to me that very much like a like a stage play. And of course it was it was based on a stage play. So I just thought, Phoebe Waller bridge. I think she's an amazingly gifted writer made and talented, accurate, and she's a force. So that's my number one. But there's a lot out there that I love. I think Handmaid's Tale is brilliant. That's not a comedy, of course. But I just think it's cheesy. I think it's brilliant.

Nick VinZant 22:18

The show that you would look at though and say like, that's all time. This is the best written show from a writing perspective.

Michael Jamin 22:27

I remember as a kid I wanted to write on Cheers. I thought that was cheers is a brilliant show. I loved it. I always felt it had a lot of heart and a lot of warmth and felt like these. They were family, these characters were like, you just want to hang out with them. To me, that's the pinnacle. And I so I aspire to be writer and cheers. And then I finally moved out to Hollywood. And I started working. And then when I got on out of practice that I was talking about that was written on. We filmed that in the same soundstage on paramount at Paramount that cheers was filmed on, and I Oh, I made it, but I'm just 10 years too late, but I made it. I got here. So and I worked with and I've written. I've worked on some shows with many of those writers x, right, the people who wrote on chairs, and I've since written with them, and I was so cool on the top man, I get to hang out with these guys.

Nick VinZant 23:11

This kind of leads us into this one favorite experience as a writer

Michael Jamin 23:16

might have been just shoot me because that was my first job. And I was like, Wow, I'm here. I did it. This was my childhood dream. And I made it. And so that was very exciting. But my partner I also ran show, which I mentioned, Glenn Martin, DDS and also mer, and that was our first time running a show where you're the boss. And that was a great experience, because then you're really you have more creative control. And you also feel like, wow, I made it on the boss. But even but now I'm not like I don't have the same desire. Like I gotta be the boss. I'm like, oh, no, I've been the boss. I'm okay. I'm okay. Not being the boss to that's fine. There's plenty to be, you know, you don't have the same stress. So that's good.

Nick VinZant 23:52

These are some of the more lighthearted ones are. Our audience is very light hearted. They're smart. They're very light hearted, good. Um, are writers out of ideas?

Michael Jamin 24:02

No, no, we're not. That's no, we're not out of ideas. There's plenty of ideas, ideas, Hollywood tends to choose, you may think that we're out of ideas, because why they keep on why are they making Rocky 10? Why are they making only Avengers movies? And it's because those ideas are much easier to market. And so it's a business. So there's plenty of ideas, the question, the ones that get made are the ones that that Hollywood that would protect their investment feels like, we can sell this idea it's easy to market, we don't have to take a giant risk. They don't want to you know, it's a business, they want to make money, they want to minimize their losses. So I get that so we're not out of ideas, but it may seem that way. And I understand why you think we are

Nick VinZant 24:41

is but how come like is that way in pretty much every sitcom right? They're gonna have kind of the staple of the episodes. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but like, where this character has this happened to them. Like there's always kind of the same general theme. Is that because that's the natural evolution of their care. Are the writers like, hey, we know this works do this,

Michael Jamin 25:03

you know, shows her sitcoms particularly are about relationships. So if you have a core five characters that you're going to hit all those different dynamics, and then when you run out of those relationships to explore, sometimes you'll, you'll create an arc you'll create Yo, this character will okay the what if these two characters break up? What if they get together? Now let's do a whole season where they're dating, what is this character goes to night school? Okay, now we have all these ideas to do. So that's what we have arcs to kind of open it up a little bit. But in terms of, you know, it's, I guess, is the best way I can answer that question, really. So I don't really feel like it's the same thing over and over again, if you find something that works, that dynamic that works. Like, for example, we're on just shoot me, when we discover that George Segal and David Spade were magic together, let's just keep putting them in scenes together, because they're always funny together. So there's that if something works, let's keep doing why are we going to do something worse? Why break it?

Nick VinZant 25:57

I know, this is kind of a very broad question. But in general, like, how much did the actors change the writing?

Michael Jamin 26:03

Um, it depends if how, if you have an actor who's also an executive producer on the show, which happens sometimes, then you can pitch them an idea. And if they don't want to do it, they're not doing it. Well. First, you can never make an actress. You can't literally put words in their mouth, if they don't want to say a line. They're human beings are not going to say it right. So hopefully, the you can build trust with them. And they'll bow though, you know, understand that it's, it's a partnership. But a good actor, or a great actor will surprise you with her line readings. And you Oh, wow, you just made it better than I imagined. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. So a great actor can do that. Catherine O'Hara, we wrote for her and Glenn Martin, DDS, and Kevin Nealon, Judy Greer, they're all like that. They're all like, man, you just made my work so much better.

Nick VinZant 26:53

There's obviously the reverse of that, though. Yes,

Michael Jamin 26:55

there's definitely the reverse. And then you try to write, you know, you steer away from you know, okay, that actor does not play that color very well. Are they can they weep? I know, they can't hit that line without seeming without making it sound kind of mean. So you just write away from that. That's part of learning who these people are and being aware of their abilities.

Nick VinZant 27:16

This is, this is the same person who asked this question to all of our guests, no matter how they who they are, whatever their thing is, how do you feel about Game of Thrones season eight?

Michael Jamin 27:26

Okay, I will tell you that. So I loved Game of Thrones. And I thought it was wonderful. And here's what I have to say about season eight. also wonderful. Thank you. You don't know how hard this job is to create, to you know, to make this show work. It was a giant production. And I thought, Hey, I was happy with it. I thought it was I loved I loved it just as much. And I have a great appreciation for the amount of work that went into it. And I'm not going to bad now that I'm that's crazy. Oh, I could do better. That's nuts, then do better. When people say that okay, then do better. Go ahead. Better.

Nick VinZant 28:03

It's so weird how public perception changes something because I was I'm a huge Game of Thrones fans. This album, see isn't me asking this question. But I don't know it just suddenly kind of like, as it was it,

Michael Jamin 28:16

your intent was for it. And you're entitled to your opinion. But I do I do get it rubs me the wrong way. And people say, Oh, I can do better. Well then do better. Let's see it

Nick VinZant 28:26

from okay. And slightly. Maybe I can ask you this question. From a writer's perspective. Was that always going to be it? Right? Like when you talk about season finales and using Game of Thrones as an example? Was that always how this was naturally going to end?

Michael Jamin 28:42

No, I'm sure if it I'm sure not. I mean, there's no way you could plan season two episode one or a season because you might get cancelled anytime between now and season eight or whatever, there's no way you can map out that arc. That's just too crazy. And yes, they had source material to work from the books. So that made of course, you know, easier. But, you know, I'm sure the writers on that show were they were they wanted to surprise they want to come up with an ending I was surprised that would not be predictable. It's hard. It's like well, where's that balancing out? How do you give the how do you give the audience what they want without giving them what they want? Because if you do they're going to be disappointed as well. You know,

Nick VinZant 29:17

yeah, that's kind of what I mean in that sense is like no matter what they did, it wasn't gonna be Yeah, and always gonna be like me The Sopranos

Michael Jamin 29:25

are the same thing brilliant show and then go to Tony die at the end or not. I was like, Well you know, right. If you if you give the audience what they want they're gonna be mad either way. So you try to surprise them breaking bad I don't believe fell into that trap. I think they I think every single episode of that it in my opinion, it was as if it was written on a clay tablet and and handed to them from God. It's like how did what amazing writing team to be able to do that? And so yeah, that ending felt very satisfying to me and surprising, but okay, it could have gone it could have gone the other way just as well and I still would have loved the show.

Nick VinZant 29:59

Do you Do you listen to that as a writer? No, just like, No, I

Michael Jamin 30:03

don't. I don't I try not to listen to. I try to listen to reviews. If you listen to the good, this isn't obviously everyone says, if you take the good reviews, you have to take the bad ones and I refuse to take either. So I don't. I write for myself, and to make a living for my family. And because it provides me with creative joy, to live that kind of lifestyle. And so, if you like it great if you don't like it, I'm not doing it for you.

Nick VinZant 30:26

But you worked on Beavis and Butthead, who was the better character Beavis or butthead?

Michael Jamin 30:31

No, man. They're a team and there's it's called Beavis and Butthead. You can't have one without the other. You need both.

Nick VinZant 30:39

I think trying to bring that back. They're always

Michael Jamin 30:41

trying to bring it back. I think, you know, there's always talking about bringing it back.

Nick VinZant 30:45

Michael Jordan of TV writing,

Michael Jamin 30:47

there are certain who is? Well, yeah, I guess you'd have to say, the Michael Jordan of sitcom writing. You know, I would say Chris Lloyd is definitely up there. You know, there's so many writers who are just like, Man, this this person, you know, and to work with those people. You know, Michael Jordan makes everyone on his team better. Michael Jordan cannot win a championship without the for the people on the on the floor. We know he'll admit that. Right. So he's now a one against five. So to work with people like that, you know, and I only just mentioned Chris lead, because he's because he's kind of well known. And Steve Levitan as well is also extremely bright and very talented. But I've worked with other writers who you haven't heard of who are like we talked about who are incredibly gifted, but haven't reached that level of success because of luck. Who are and I can I've learned from all of them.

Nick VinZant 31:39

What advice would you give to somebody who feels that their stuff is good, but just can't break through?

Michael Jamin 31:48

Yeah, I It's funny cuz I, I mentioned shortly I post every day I've been doing this but for months, I post writing advice on on social media. Like how to be better how to write how to break into the business, how to be an actor ahead as a director, and you can find it on pretty much any platform at Michael jamman. Writer. So Instagram for sure. And Facebook and Tik Tok, but it's that I get that question a lot. And in the people say, Well, how do I? How do I get my script into the right hands? And I don't think that's a good question to ask, I think the better question to ask is, because it takes the power away from you. You're saying, My, I have a great script, and it has to get into the right hands, but you don't have the right hands? And you don't have the right how do I find the person with the right hands. And it takes all the responsibility and blame out of view the writer and puts the blame on the person with the hands? And that's a cop out? I think a better question to ask is How do I write a script that's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth. Because if you write a great script, and you give it to somebody who's someone who knows someone who knows someone in the business, and everyone knows someone who knows someone, right, and that person reads it, and they go, Wow, this is a great script, I'm gonna pass it along the line I'm gonna give to somebody else who is a little closer in the business, not because not because I want to help you, who cares about you, I'm going to pass it along, because it helps me because if I give that script to someone, that person who's closer to business, I'll look like a star to them, because they need good scripts. And if I give them something they want, now I look at me now I'm now I'm a boss, right. And the same thing now that person reads the script and they go, Wow, this is a really good script, I can't do anything with it. Sorry, I can't do this is a really nice, I got cut off. This is a really great script. I can't do anything with it. But But I know someone who knows someone, and they can do something, and maybe an agent or a manager. And that's how the script gets passed up further and further along the line. Until finally gets into the person who says I can't this is a true, I can't pay you for this script. I can't use this script. But I have a project that I'm working on. And and I need you to write it. Because you have something that I need. You have talent and knew how to write a great script. And so and then that now you're now they want to exploit you. Now instead of you begging to get work, they're begging you to be exploited. I want to pay you because you have something I need talent and ability. That's how you do it. But no one ever asked that question. Because it's it requires work. And it requires the ability to okay, I want to learn everyone. And this includes me when I broke in. I was like, here's the script, can someone just give me a lot of money for it doesn't work that way. You know, it's too easy. So the better question is, how do I write a script that's so good. Doesn't matter whose hands it falls into that requires learning your craft writing all the time studying, listening to people like me, I'm not the only one on social media who talks of finding a good teacher, a teacher who knows what the hell they're talking about. There's plenty of teachers who don't but and that requires commitment of time and investment in your own energy of investment of energy and often money because you have to learn. So that's what I recommend. Oh, why don't you weren't expecting a lecture, but you got one.

Nick VinZant 34:54

One of our questions actually was like, give us your best TV writing grant, that was it. That's it, man, that might have been it. Um, I guess on the other side of that, that kind of plays along with it, you know, squid game is the super popular thing right now. How do you kind of know like that Right? Or the big thing was like he went 10 years everybody telling him this is crap, this is crap, this is crap. How do you know when to stick to your guns? Or to really like, oh, maybe this really is crap.

Michael Jamin 35:26

And I don't and I know, that's true. But I don't know the rest of the story of his career. Um,

Nick VinZant 35:30

I don't I don't have know anything else about it. Either.

Michael Jamin 35:32

I imagined he had this great idea for a show and he's trying to sell it. But in the meantime, he was trying to do other work I imagined, okay, I can also come up with another script, or I'm gonna try to write in this show or that show. Like, it's not like you just put all your eggs in one basket. You know, you kind of I think that would be foolish. You want to continue, okay, I wrote something great. Maybe I can't find the right market for it. But I'm like, write something else and write something else and something. So you have to continue writing. And I again, the first scripts that I wrote 26 years ago, I thought were great. I thought they were great, right? But now when I look at him, I cringe because I see how much I've grown as a writer over the years. And that's all I've only grown because I've continued writing. It's not because I was hanging desperately on to this one script that I wrote. So write it, put it aside, write something else.

Nick VinZant 36:16

Um, that's really all the questions I got, man, anything you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Michael Jamin 36:22

Uh, yeah, so I go back to as a writer, co executive producer, and Tacoma FD that starts probably, I'm thinking in January, my partner, I have a couple of pilots that we sold that we're currently writing. So that's good. And by the way, when you sell a pilot doesn't mean it's gonna be gone here, it means they've paid you to write a pilot script. And then there's, once they there's that you get to that step. And then maybe if they like it, maybe they shoot it. And if they shoot it, maybe they put it on the air. So there's a lot of maybes between now and then. So that's the word that's the life of a writer. Well, I'm happy that we saw this, we get to write it. So there's that. And again, like I talked about, I, I and I'm working on a collection of personal essays that I'm hoping to publish soon. And so that's what's next for me. And I also, like I said it post every day, this started during the pandemic, I had a friend who was begging, want to break into the business. And he's like I am and I used to talk to him, you know, but he I read a script and I couldn't help. And he said, You got to make a course. I'm like, Dude, I don't have time to make a course. You got to do it. And then pandemic hit and shut everything down. So I was literally had nothing to do for the first six months, the band had nothing to do. There's nothing going on in my career in Hollywood, everything was shut down, everyone is hunkered in their homes. And so that's when I made this course. And if any, any of your listeners want to want to check it out, they can learn more about that Michael Jackson comm slash course. And I also post just for fun on Instagram and tick tock and Facebook just daily tips. When we get off of this, I'm gonna go make my my three minute video on tick tock or whatever that I'm gonna share just about, you know, how to be a writer how to live a more creative life and how to break into the business. So if that interests you, go ahead, follow me there. You know, people want that.

Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown

There’s subtle signs that can tell you if a person loves you, is lying to you or might be a threat. Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown is not only an expert at reading those signs, he can also teach you how to do it. We talk reading others’ body language, controlling your body language and why you should always trust your gut. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Pastries.

Dr. Jack Brown: 01:40ish

Pointless: 26:02ish

Top 5: 48:07ish

https://www.bodylanguageeq.com (Dr. Jack Brown Website)

https://twitter.com/DrGJackBrown (Dr. Jack Brown Twitter)

Interview with Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the secrets of body language and pastries.

Dr. Jack Brown 0:23

I've actually I started studying body language when I was teenager, I was around an adult who I looked up to. And because I wanted to know how did I was pissed off that like at myself that I didn't see that this guy was nefarious. When people lie, they'll often they'll often elevate off their chair for a split second when they lie. So you can show people that are brain blind pictures of guys coming in with a knife or, or a line or something really scary, lunging at them, and they will still feel fear.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So have you ever been suspicious of someone attracted to somebody or thought someone was lying to you. And even though you felt really strongly about it, you couldn't figure out why. It might have something to do with their body language. And our first guest is an expert at reading, interpreting, and teaching people to spot the subtle signs of body language. This is body language expert, Dr. JACK Brown. So how did you get started in this?

Dr. Jack Brown 1:41

Actually, I started studying body language. When I was a teenager, I was around an adult who I looked up to, and this adult, I really looked up to them and they ended up not being a good person. So I went to my parents and I said, hey, how do you tell a good person for a bad person? And they gave me a pretty good answer. My parents are good interpersonal skills, but I wasn't satisfied. So I started reading site psychology journals in middle school. And because I wanted to know how did I was pissed off that like at myself that I didn't see that this guy was nefarious? Are

Nick VinZant 2:14

people generally pretty good at, at assessing people's body language? Are we bad at it?

Dr. Jack Brown 2:19

There's a variable skill? That's a great question. The variable skill level, they're women in general are better than men. And there's reasons for that women tend to have a, if you look them are under a functional MRI scan, not a diagnostic one, but a research MRI scan, you'll see that they're if you show him a short video or a picture or something, their brain might be lit up in 25 different places where a man's is lit up in three or four. So you know, women are better whole brain thinkers, and women in general are better communicators. And, and communication is a great example of a multitasking skill. You know, you're constantly what is what did he say? What did I just say? Oh, I was thinking I was gonna say this. I think I say that, oh, look what he did with his face, or like that was where What was that? So you're constantly reassessing. And so it's a multitasking thing, women are better at multitasking. And that goes along with those other things. So people that have less formal education, ironically, to some people are better. And the reason is, is because we tend to look at our degree, and we say, Oh, look, I Johns Hopkins, or Look, I went to the University of you know, Minnesota where, you know, and we tend to really validate those those formal education. And we tend to invalidate and ignore our informal education and our street smarts, people who've been through trauma, whatever the kind of trauma is, it could be sexual trauma, could be physical trauma, could be emotional trauma, you know, they're going to grow up discriminating as they are right now, who can I trust? Who can I trust? Can people

Nick VinZant 3:54

hide it though? Right? Like, obviously, people are aware of body language. I think that people in general kind of get the concept of it. Can somebody hide their body language very well? Or is it something that like, we don't even consciously think of

Dr. Jack Brown 4:10

the short answer that is, yes, it's possible. But usually, even for very skilled people, even for just a short period of time, when actors go in and out of character, there's a real interesting phenomenon, like when they, when they're you have an actor, that's a really skilled actor goes out of character, they have an emotional release. And you see it on their face, and you see different, you know, verbal and nonverbal behaviors going on, that's really akin to what a liar would would do on a smaller scale, and dampened down so when a liar, a liar will get good at suppressing the body language, like kind of like you alluded to a few minutes ago, and then when they go out of character, so they're still sitting in front of you, so they were suppressing it. And now they go through a moment where they're not suppressing it very good. So they come out of it. character. So if you get skilled at looking for these things, you can see them Oh, like wait a second, he had a good poker face there and like were just what was that? What was that, and these are the what these are the people coming in and out of character. And another thing that is really common is they might suppress one part of their face, but it shows up on the other part of the face. So they might suppress their face and it shows up on another part of the body. But even people that do it really well only can do it for a few seconds. And you know, I'm an expert, I don't I don't have a good poker face.

Nick VinZant 5:32

Now, I mean, when you look at people's like behaviors, is it pretty standard across everybody, right? Like you make this gesture This means this or two people vary.

Dr. Jack Brown 5:43

There is definitely individual idiosyncrasies, idiosyncratic behavior, there's inter cultural, idiosyncratic behavior, but, but both of those make up a pretty small minority, for example, the the, you know, between between cultures, it's, it's less than 1% of all your behavior is culturally learned. But those stick out in your mind you're going to notice the red flower in the middle of the yellow flowers and it sticks out but you know, it gives you a false idea of how frequent it is. And and so it's far less than 1% In fact, someone can be born blind from the time they're born born blind and not have any kind of biofeedback as to what kind of face do I make? Or what kind of body do I make any kind of situation and they still will have the same body language

Nick VinZant 6:34

when you look at people though like can you tell generally like okay this person is nice this person's a jerk this person's this or are you just seeing their current emotion reflected in their body language another

Dr. Jack Brown 6:47

great question. If you're really skilled, you can make big pattern umbrella judgments and you can you like there are certain behaviors that are super common for a sociopath psychopath. There are certain behaviors that and you can see those in a pretty short period of time but you still want again, you want a sample size, a decent chunk of time, generally speaking, how body language is classically taught and for the vast majority of times when I teach it it's what's this person is thinking feeling in this moment, because you can have a really you can have a pathological person and you show pictures if you hit someone to hypnotize you in forgot, say you forget all your long term memory, you can see videos of Adolf Hitler you know, petting a dog, he's supposedly like dogs a lot. And you know, lots of people do like dogs and that's generally a good sign. But, but yeah, you know, where he looks Oh, you know, if you if you if you didn't know that, or if you're hitting the ties to forget all those long term memories, but you did have the body language skill, you might make a false assessment that he was stable, or a kind person or, or non pathological. So most of the time, it's what is this person thinking feeling at that moment, but the more skill you have, you definitely can make big pattern.

Nick VinZant 8:05

So I read something one time that when we feel an emotion, our body reacts to it, before we even process that this is how we're feeling is that is that a true thing, the kind of idea that like something makes me happy that my body shows that I'm happy before my brain even realizes that I'm happy.

Dr. Jack Brown 8:24

And there's lots of reasons for that. And some we're still discovering, you know, part of it is just the speed that we process a part of is multitasking. Part of it is what you know, what we might be doing. And the other things this scenario we're in, in part of it is the speed of the nervous system, how quick the nervous signals travel, there's a fascinating thing that's relatively recently discovered. And that has a it's a, it's a connection that we have, that our visual system has with a part of the brain that interprets fear. And so you can show this is so fascinating. So if you have a person who's blind, and there's different ways to be blind, you can be blind in the eyes, but your eyes can also be perfectly functional and the nerves that connect the eyeballs to the back of the brain, the visual part of the brain, they can be functional, but say the brain is blind so someone was hit back here or had a brain tumor or had a stroke and so their brain blind but their eyes weren't good. Okay, so with that as a setup, so you can show people that are brain blind pictures of guys come in with a knife or or a line or something really scary, lunging at them, and they will still feel fear. They say I don't know what this picture is, but I feel fear. So when you look at an audience and or look at a person you go, Oh, you know this song about this guy that bugs me there's something there there's a situation here that bugs me there this person bugs me or you even look at a crowd and you pick someone out and go that person bugs me. There, there's something there. There's something I'm worried about it, listen to those always Oh, Listen to those, that's your amygdala talking. And this is a fascinating validation of what my gut is saying and what my instincts are saying, right? You know, those words those euphemisms that people use for their, their instincts or their subconscious. And this is a physiologic basis for that, that's relatively recent discovered. And that doesn't mean it's the only reason that our, our, our gut or instincts Q is in, we might discover some other things, some things we may never discover, you know, who knows, there might be a supernatural component to that, you know, but, but that is one physiologic component that's really, really fascinating. So, and like, you can take the people that are best at looking at a group of people, that that looks at a group of people and can pick out the bad actors or potential bad actors in that crowd. Who's the best at that third trimester pregnant women, mothers in general are better. And fathers are better than non fathers and mothers are better than non mothers. And the theory is that they're the there's a hormonal base that says that really revs up or tunes up that amygdala connection that I was talking about. Of course, there's overlap there with PTSD, you can you can view over look at everything as trauma when maybe none of it or the vast majority of it isn't. And so there is, you know, that can be taken too far. And I'm not saying that this connection is the basis for PTSD. I'm just saying there's maybe an overlap and that phenomenon, that's a fascinating thing you can over interpret. So you know, you don't want to do that either. But yeah, that's That to me is is is fascinating. And and so I've debrief people who have been kidnapped and of course if they didn't escape, no one would be interviewing him and and what are some of the things and there are there are different authors that speak about this, and you can read this other you know, I'm not the only one who's done this, by any means. But there are people who have been kidnapped and they say, there was a moment when a light went off in my head, I shouldn't do this, or I shouldn't you know, it was before they were surprised, maybe they were cooperating with someone or helping someone do something or someone you know, they befriended someone or, you know, but something was a little off and they didn't listen to their instincts. And but there was a little voice in their head that there's something there and they ignored it, and they suppress it and they suppress it and suppress it, we might do that with a spouse who ends up being a bad spouse or a lover you know, we don't get kidnapped, we just end up being our business decision. You know, business partner, there's a little voice in your head that says something and you suppress it, you get good at suppressing that,

Nick VinZant 12:40

if we're trying to if you're trying to get a read on somebody is there like a place on their body that okay, you should watch this area, because that's going to tell you first what this person is like.

Dr. Jack Brown 12:51

In general, the most important part of the body is the face. And the most important part of the face are the eyes. So you know, learn to look at people's eyes and say, if I was an eight year old, would I trust them, you know, that we bring in all this baggage that we use to rationalize and to cloud our judgment from the truth. So you know, try and look at that person you're in your best case scenario being objective. Another place that people show tension is in their mid face and the mustache area, this right below your nose and above your upper lip, and that does that whole region doesn't have a name, but you can call it the mustache area. People show tension in their mid face, their nostrils might flare a little bit there might see a slight slight tension in their in their in their mouth area. Usually when people are opening their eyelids wide. Usually the forehead goes up kind of like I'm doing right now my foreheads going up and my eyes are open wider and a liar slash con man slash someone who's chronically insincere slash someone who's chronic liar. Someone slash someone who can not be trusted tends to overuse their forehead, so their forehead is always up, their eyebrows are always up, their eyelids are always a little bit wider. Okay, that's the person who's trying too hard. It's like using 19 exclamation marks at the end of a sentence instead of just saying yes or no. You know, yeah, why are you trying too hard? Why are you being overexpressing in your face. Another one is in particular is when their their center forehead is contracted. So just their center forehead is contracted in the center eyebrows are going up, kind of like I'm doing right now. And this is super important, not with the sad mouth, but with a little bit of a smile, not with the big smile usually, but when you have that center forehead, and a little bit of a smile. That is something we all do once in a while so I just demonstrated that but we all do it once in a while when we're feeling arrogant. Hopefully you don't feel arrogant too much. We all do it once in a while when we're feeling smug, incredulity. we all we all feel we all do that when we feel in contempt but we all do that facial expression once in a while but people that do it a lot that center forehead contraction with a little bit of a mouth smile or a modest smile smile those people have that's a really strong correlation with sociopathic behavior and psychopathic behavior. So sociopath psychopathic the technical term for that collective is antisocial personality disorder which should have a different name it sounds too benign but you know a sociopath or psychopath one of the biggest Check Point check marks in something whether someone's a sociopathic psychopath is chronic lying so get used to you know, if someone tells you they love you, I and you don't feel it, you're usually not feeling it because it's something that's lacking in their eyes.

Nick VinZant 15:42

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions Sir Sir, biggest misconception people generally have about body language

Dr. Jack Brown 15:52

the biggest misconception is to look at if people we alluded to this earlier if they looked at one thing like oh this means they're lying you know if one one thing just one thing always mean this so it's a one to one translation that's that's the biggest misconception

Nick VinZant 16:07

most misinterpreted gesture.

Dr. Jack Brown 16:10

Oh, probably the most misinterpreted one is is one that people always cite is is when people crossing the line Oh yeah, you always hear you know there's different ways you can cross your arms You know, this crossing your arms with your fist is more hostile You know, this is is more insecure you know, you could just be cold um, you know, it could be you know, if you if you're a woman and you're crossing your arms over your breasts, that that's you know, a sign that you probably don't want to talk to this guy you know that that there's there's so there's lots of variations there but you can just plain old be cold, people who are more who are a little bit less than what they will sometimes do that just for comfort when they're sitting. So sometimes depending on your body shape and size you're you do it for more we all do it for comfort once in a while, but just reposition yourself on your chair you know if your chair has no arms you know there's a there's a lot of thing and you're sitting next to people so there's a lot of variations there. You never want to look at one thing but that's probably the most commonly cited misinterpreted you don't want it you you want to look at a lot of things you know, a person can be in love with you and still crossing their arms and further, you know, and there's Yeah, there's I can get I can get I can get a little There are of course sexual elements to some of these. I don't want to necessarily go there. Yeah, there's, so there's an I get a lot of those questions. But yeah, there are. That's probably the the most missing

Nick VinZant 17:50

the biggest one is like that one. So we talked a little bit about that, like women are better at reading it, but who is generally more expressive with their body language men or women,

Dr. Jack Brown 18:00

I would say that women as well, women as well, and they under but they understand the context of it. So a woman with another, a woman with a man who they don't know or don't trust, especially given like, say, in inner city setting, and they've never been that inner city or they know it to be bad is different when the same woman when she's talking amongst her friends and in a in a in a trusted environment. Whereas a guy will tend to have more one flavor across that spectrum. It's not that he won't vary. He will and and you know, there are plenty of women that aren't good at it. And there are plenty of men that are really astute at it. But in general women are definitely better than in demand at body language in both reading and expressing

Nick VinZant 18:43

people who are generally like if they have a traumatic upbringing, they're usually better at it. Why is that?

Dr. Jack Brown 18:49

It's because they have to thin slice human behavior. So if you're sexually assaulted or you know sexually abused or physically abused, or emotionally abused, you you look at people and you say, Who can I trust? Who can I trust in You see all sorts of subtlety that other people gloss over a

Nick VinZant 19:09

person whose body language that you looked at and were scared of our person that really jumped out at you like that person? Or I don't trust them.

Dr. Jack Brown 19:21

Yeah, you want you want a certain name?

Nick VinZant 19:24

If you if you want to give it

Dr. Jack Brown 19:27

there's lots of names. I like some of the show. I'll answer specifically your answer generally. I mean, like some of the mass killers that we've seen, of course, there's you know, like, Who's the who's the the guy from the early 70s that Oh, Manson. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. He's got the big eyes, the crazy eyes, you know, and you hear that? The term Crazy Eyes and the big eyes. Why are these people's eyes open wide if you look at say the Sandy Hook killer here, those wide open eyes or Guy Marshall Applewhite, yeah, there are there are certain facial expressions and certain things that really light up your mind. You know from a body language in that's one specific the wide, wide open eyes, you may not be able to describe in words, and you may not be able to bullet point it or write it down in any kind of words. If your instincts say something, I don't, I can't put my finger on it. But I don't trust this person, even if they have a good reputation, even if you heard about them from someone else, trust your gut, especially if there's element of physical danger involved. But even if it's business danger, you know,

Nick VinZant 20:38

best way to tell if somebody is attracted to you.

Dr. Jack Brown 20:41

So eye contact, it goes up. But it's it's a smile. And it's usually a suppressed smile with the eye contact. So this is with love and physical attraction, and blushing, people will blush a lot. And you know, what are they doing with the rest of their body to so when people are attracted, their pupils will get larger to say one person is really attracted the other one, say Person A is really attracted Person B, but Person B is semi attracted to Person A. But Person B sees persons as pupils get bigger, and their pupils get bigger. And then there's a feedback mechanism where each people starts getting bigger and bigger, bigger to a point of course, because the eyeballs only say, right, but this all happens at the subconscious level. You can't control your pupil size consciously at all. It all happens at the subconscious level. Now the other thing that might happen is they might lick their lips, the tongue to lip contact would tend to be slower, it wouldn't be quicker, we tend to be slower. Women tend to cross and uncross the legs more we tend to full body points towards the person we're attracted to. So our feet are pointed to them our hips are pointed to them. Our shoulders are pointed to them our face is pointed them in our eyes are pointing to them and we have high contact and you can fit it more in your chair not because you're good nervous not because you're bad nervous, so that's another reason why you fidgeting Why do you fish in your chair but you're you're really excited. You know people when people lie, they'll often they'll often elevate off their chair for a split second when they lie and that the reason for their is their their sphincter tone in their Peri genital regions tend to tighten up and loosen and tighten up and get stimulated. You know people say I almost pooped my pants or almost shit my pants people say that well in there's really physiology there too, and also a man's testicles. When when is a man's testicles pull up close to his abdomen. They do it for probably for four different reasons. One is when he's cold. Another one is when he's fearful. So when he's fearful, and that's he'll, he'll sit up off his chair you'll see him sit up off his chair a little bit. Another one is when he's sexually excited and another one is called the Kree mysteric reflex when you rub the inner part of the thigh, but just you know you're really attracted that person you're going to be shifting your chair to but that's more of a lateral shift and you're crossing and unquestioned your legs but your full body pointing at that person hugs to you don't if you're attracted to someone you're going to have more contact with them. I have one of the first body languages things I noticed as a teenager it's harder to fake a hug. If you really like someone or don't like somebody it's harder to fake a hug than it is to fake a kiss you can fake a good kiss but you cannot fake a good hug even if you know what to do You cannot fake that good hug and one of the reasons is just getting in closer you there tends to be more full body contact from the hips all the way down you know all the way up your is opposed to the Leaning kind of hugs

Nick VinZant 23:48

you know when you're leaning Yeah, that kind of like that. Yeah, I

Dr. Jack Brown 23:51

know you mean to the hug you know there's less full body contact, I have less affection for that person. So think of that more as an affection thing not so much as a sexual attraction thing. You know, another thing is you know it I get tons of people who say, well, is this guy fake? And he's liking me or does he really like me? Well always think is this affectionate? Because people can fake lust, and they can say things I love you I love you. But one of the things that appear affection affectionate like those like those true hugs, and what people tend to close their eyes longer. What else is if your palms have full contact with their back, you should feel a full palm our contact the full palm of their hand against your back. But if you ever notice your eyes being open during a hug, they shouldn't be you if you really are hugging someone and you're feeling affection, your eyes should be closed. And the reason for that is you're when you shut your eyes You're you're actually shutting down a little bit of your your brain function, your visual brain function. So when you think of something, you go, Oh, let me think about that people close their eyes, or people close their eyes and they smell wine or they close their eyes and they taste that chocolate mousse. It's Not the imagination that you can taste chocolate better, they really can taste chocolate better. And the reason is, is because when your eyes are closed, a little bit more energy in your brain is dedicated towards that sense. It's also true for affection. The reason we close our eyes during a hug or during a kiss is because you want to drink in the moment of that hug or that kiss you want to fully feel that emotion. And so people that fake lust, or excuse me, they're lustful, but they faking love, they won't do that. So you want to differentiate what is sexual versus what is affectionate. The affection is the thing that stays in the affection is really the thing that tells you whether this person really loves you or not.

Entertainer Alexis Fawx

From films and fetish work to cannabis, comedy and coffee, Alexis Fawx is an all-around entertainer and entrepreneur. We talk award-winning sex work, interesting foot fetish requests and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Birthdays.

Alexis Fawx: 01:46ish

Pointless: 23:55ish

Top 5: 39:12ish

www.alexisfawxlive.com  (Alexis Fawx Website)

www.twitter.com/alexisfawx  (Alexis Fawx Twitter)

www.instagram.com/alexisfawxlive (Alexis Fawx Instagram)

www.highasfawxshow.com (Alexis Fawx Podcast)

https://feetfinder.com/userProfile/alexisfawx (Alexis Fawx Foot Fetish Site)

http://www.linktr.ee/AlexisFawx (All Alexis Fawx Links and Websites)

Interview with Alexis Fawx

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, a little bit of everything plus birthdays.

Alexis Fawx 0:21

There's armpit fetishes there's cheese fetishes there I mean I remember when I first started webcaming and there was this guy he took everybody to private just to watch him eat cheese or watch no he wanted to watch you eat cheese it got me healthy it got me healthy mind body and spirit like 100 million times percent. And I love where I am now and I have the industry to thank for that because it's given me that opportunity to take the time I love growing cannabis especially like popping that from seed I have the reason why I like growing cannabis is because it's such a if you plant really communicates with you you know when needs water you know when it needs nutrients.

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us if you get a chance like download Subscribe, Share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is Alexis box. And while she's most famous for being an adult films, which is fascinating. She's also involved in so many interesting things. Everything from fetish work, to cannabis, coffee, beer, podcast, variety shows travel, so many things that for the first time I didn't really even know where to start. So I picked what to me was the most recent thing. Foot fetishes you've been doing adult films for a while but what made you transition into the foot fetish aspect of it

Alexis Fawx 1:51

I wouldn't say that it's dropping off it's just expanding what I already do. You know it was just an opportunity to be on a foot site so I took it because I believe in having multiple streams of income and not concentrating on just one site. So feet a F is just another is just safer work foot site makes it super easy. I can take pictures all day at my feet and send it up and make little albums of it

Nick VinZant 2:12

when you go into the different fetishes is like the foot fetish different than another fetish or are they all kind of the same and in a different way if that makes any sense.

Alexis Fawx 2:21

Well I mean you're gonna use your feet in different ways and like when you do customs you are getting really that individual person's like fetish so they may be like I only want to see your soles I want them dirty wear a skirt with it or you know or be nude or this or that and then the next person may be ordering another foot fetish and say you know, I would like for you to be more on your toes or you know, everybody's different and you could get down to the very simple incurrence or you know little intricate details you know, I would like to only have you wear red and have your toes painted this color and it you know, people I have long toes, my toes you know, so I get a lot of requests for that. So I've learned how to move those in ways that are really interesting and intricate for those people that like that that ish, but like any fetish that I I have a lot of requests for I you know, research to make sure like okay, like, what are the terms? What are what are the phrases that people may like or really into and I just try to take note of all those different things, because you're going to hit a lot of people with those. Does that make sense?

Nick VinZant 3:27

So you would like you didn't necessarily start out as this is just like an avenue that you had like, Hey, I'm doing this so I'm going to do this too.

Alexis Fawx 3:34

Once you get into adult work, like you You gain fans and fans are gonna tell you what they like and foot fetish is a very popular fetish. I guess I'm a hustler in a sense, like, you know, hey, if they want to offer me a site to do something, and it's it's you know, it's I'm already kind of doing it. It just makes sense to do it. But yeah, I mean, you could have there's armpit fetishes. There's cheese fetishes there. I mean, I remember when I first started webcaming and there was this guy he took everybody to private just to watch him eat cheese or watch No, he wanted to watch you eat cheese. So it's like do you eat cheese in the refrigerator and be like yeah, he was like Okay, I'll take it a private and like it's like a one line webcast. Are you familiar with like webcam? Yeah, yeah, we are on webcam. Yeah, I have a block of Swiss and you'd be like oh go get it. I'll take it into private we'll eat cheese. Okay. And like yeah, you can have someone you know literally they're paying per minute to watch you eat cheese or or put lotion on your feet if it's the foot fetish or you know there's also you can you know, it depending on what you can also use a toy and pretend that toy and it's just like, almost like you're doing jerk off instructions, but with your feet. It's you know, it's just kind of all internet intermingled.

Nick VinZant 4:49

I keep thinking about the cheese guy with a specific comment. I was gonna

Alexis Fawx 4:53

have nightmares about that. Just think about cheddar cheese. There's somebody staring at you while you eat some cheese. For like 30 for 30 for 30 minutes just eat cheese

Nick VinZant 5:05

was it was it specific kind like he felt differently about cheddar than he did about Swiss or something? It was just the

Alexis Fawx 5:11

fact of eating cheese I got some cheese right here but to give you the visual

Nick VinZant 5:18

I'm alright I'm alright you

Alexis Fawx 5:21

know and smoking fetish I mean that's another one that you know people would like to Hey geez I don't smoke cigarettes I smoke weed but I don't smoke cigarettes. But first of all I'm smoking fetish people you know, it has to be a certain type of cigarette you know what I mean? So they have all that but I really only like the Marvel 1000s or whatever the fuck they're called. And I'm like no, I don't smoke that but if you want me to roll a joint or a blind I'm cool with that. But at least I'll have some fun in the meantime I'm not going to totally destroy my lungs with a bunch of chemicals I don't understand

Nick VinZant 5:47

getting into the more kind of general questions so you know you were in the Air Force How did you get how'd you get started in the industry

Alexis Fawx 5:54

I was in the Air Force A long time ago did that to get out of my small town to move around to have experience to start living life been to college went to school have a degree in physiological psychology specialization or anatomy was working you know in the nine to five bullshit Jobs was miserable and hold off and quit everything and I was living in my Miami Florida at the time. So I was like Oh shit, maybe I should get a job like after six months or something like that. And Craigslist had a ad to be an extra on Dancing bear and I'm a free spirit. I've had a lot of sex I don't like I'm pretty open but all my shit. And I'm like, Oh, I love porn to be an extra that'd be kind of cool to watch people fuck or whatever. So I went in I was going down just to be an extra in here like they needed extra girls to do blow jobs that day and I was like fuck yeah all right, I just raised my hand I was like yeah, I can get paid that much for a blowjob. Lucky I'll do it. And I did it and the next day I was booked for a boy girl and I had a name and everything in history has been written

Nick VinZant 6:58

Did you ever regret it at any point?

Alexis Fawx 7:00

No, never I have never regretted my decisions.

Nick VinZant 7:03

What are you were you surprised kind of when it when it happened? Like how quickly the transition was made.

Alexis Fawx 7:11

You know I think when you're in it you're not really noticing the transition or like like holy shit this is really becoming a career I think like you know you just dive into it and you get into it you start doing it and I even like it feels like I guess like I don't know I'm still surprised today like I still you know when fans come up to me and they recognize me It still feels like the vote like oh my god they know who I am like it's still like wow, I'm still that it shows that personality of like a small town Pennsylvania girl, you know, like, it's never gonna leave me But yeah, it's been a hell of it's been a great career I am so happy and I'm so happy that I did say yes for that opportunity because it gave me a lot of freedom and the freedom that has given me is the time and when you have freedom time to be able to do the things that you want to do and create your own schedule, you become a lot happier person, you're no longer working for somebody else's dreams you can start working for your own dreams and now you're making the money to do so. So it almost like completely changed my life for the better. I was probably not in the best spot and mentally physically or emotionally or spiritually at that time and like seeing yourself on camera Twitter research starting out noticing how people hang on to your every word. Like it just made me think well if I'm going to be on this I'm going to be in this and people are going to see me Follow me Do whatever then I am going to get healthy I'm going to project a healthy image and not just project it and just pretend it but actually be it and be consistent and those actions you know then this is gonna be a great career and business decision and it has and that's how I've just always approached it is you know, it got me healthy it got me healthy mind body and spirit like 100 million times percent. And I love where I am now and I have the industry to thank for that because it's given me that opportunity to take the time for yourself love self care, and do those things in the passions that really really drive my soul and keep my soul on fire. Like I've been able to start different businesses I'm able to travel I'm able to make to say you know what, I'm gonna go do this today. I'm gonna go shoot my bow and arrow in the fucking desert. I'm gonna go do that. And I know I'm rarely gonna go do to the desert and go shoot my bow and arrow. I said it I'm gonna go do it.

Nick VinZant 9:18

Yeah, the thing that I've always wondered about people who are in adult films, it's like what's your what's what's your life? Like? Because the preconceived notion that I have and right we all know what preconceived notions are like, you go to a film set. You have sex on camera, and then it's parties at night like just this crazy lifestyle. This is what I'm imagining. So correct me where I'm wrong like what's what's yours your average adult actresses life really like?

Alexis Fawx 9:47

Again, I will only speak from my personal Yeah, I can only speak from my own personal and how I how I control and I will never speak on other people's lives and make generalizations on other people. However, for myself and for a lot of people that I consider friends in the industry because usual usually flock to those that are very much alike or that inspire right try to flock to those that inspire me that are smart intelligent and they're moving forward with our lives in many directions I don't go out and party I actually ever since I got into the industry I never was I've never been that person like oh yeah let's go party and you don't go party after set you're exhausted you know you're tired you may have a shoot the next day you may have an eight o'clock call time you may have been on set for 12 hours maybe you're working a feature you have you know millions and other things to think about other than going out and doing parties and you know, we I don't have onset romances I don't really know anybody who does not that I would give a shit to tell their story anyway. It's just you know, I mean it's just it's I think the preconceived ideas are always funny because you guys get that from movies that you've seen you think about the 70s and I'm gonna say that maybe it hasn't happened or doesn't happen but it's never happened with me. I don't know and it's not something I think happens on anywhere regular at all it's just like if you go to an industry party is like an avian party so my thing for any party because I'm not a party girl I'm an introvert I like my little home base. I go I do about one I could do about 90 minutes make me shake all the hands I need to shake and I get the fuck out of there and go eat food. But that's me and it's not that we just shoot on camera we're shooting our own content we're writing our own content we are we're planning our lives we are you know I have a coffee business a podcast a comedy show you know I'm making a wine this year I did a beer I'm doing my second beer club you know, I just shot content yesterday I was just shooting a calendar all last week which was about 14 different looks covering my being you know, like whatever, which is long days that's 1214 hour days people don't realize and then like I have to sit here and I get into my computer and I will spend all day on my computer probably the next couple days just catching up on my DMS on all the different private sites that I have you know the subscription site so the only fans is easy Plus, it's not like we just sit around be like get a call me like hey, do you wanna fuck so and so we got cameras on it doesn't happen that way.

Nick VinZant 12:08

Do you have to kind of strike while the iron is hot? I mean, you've had a long career. But is Is anybody in the industry? Is the clock kind of ticking on them?

Alexis Fawx 12:16

I don't really look at that way. I mean, I think like I don't have any clock ticking. I just like to do I love what I do. So why not do it until I don't want to do more.

Nick VinZant 12:29

Okay, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, let's do it. How much does acting matter? Or how much like acting would you say you're doing in a scene? Or is that that's really how you're feeling in the moment

Alexis Fawx 12:43

you know, it depends on the scene and your scene partners you know like luckily I've been in and I work a lot with the same individuals so we know our we know what we're doing and so that kind of we just have fun at that point because we know what to do we know where the cameras are there is it you know that's not really accurate we're just having a really good time and enjoying it acting part you know is more in the dialogue and things of that nature. Some people you know you may have never worked with before and you know the biggest thing you want to create some chemistry so that you the viewer is going to get into that you know the chemistry of the past like whatever you guys see on another side

Nick VinZant 13:25

are you generally doing scenes with people that like in if this wasn't your job like oh yeah I would probably do this with this person if the camera wasn't here

Alexis Fawx 13:35

oh no I'm not match with anybody that like I don't date in the industry or anything like that. I don't even look at it that way I just this is a person I work with. I told him look at it like I really don't I don't look at any single person whether it's female or male and thought I would date you outside of this I never I'd never never crossed my mind I don't think that way these are these are actresses and actors that I work with I have a note like total respect for them and I don't put them in that I don't put them in my imagination like that

Nick VinZant 14:03

hardest kind of scene to do.

Alexis Fawx 14:07

Hardest kind of scene for me for me to do. It's any scene that's really late in the night and I haven't been able to eat and we have any more Angel NDP are getting pretty easy. That means I don't know Joe, was my hardest thing. Um, hardest things to do. It's just maybe I think the hardest time I ever have is like sometimes when maybe. I don't know like maybe when the person maybe when people are things just are prepared. But I mean like things things don't really happen really anymore. You know, it was a lot harder when I was you know, newer in the industry, maybe I don't know that.

Nick VinZant 14:51

Things people want you to do but you won't like most frequent requests

Alexis Fawx 15:00

Like I mean, my boundaries are pretty just basic like I'm not going to like obviously I'm not going to do any kind of. I'm just not comfortable doing any type of medical Dom or anything that involves body like feces. Like really just I'm not into gross things I consider girls that's uh you know, I don't I don't know there's just it just I mean the things that I wouldn't do or just I think common sense shit like I don't even really like to answer those questions because it's like I'm not gonna sit here and name I don't even like see Yeah, I'm just there's just things that you wouldn't do I probably wouldn't do it like, I don't know. Yeah, just common sense stuff I don't do like there's there's certain words or certain not going to vomit I'm not going to you know, like there's just there's things that you could ask that I'm just like, no not gonna vomit. Oh, I don't write my name on boards or my body i don't i think that's that's just not me. I'm not going to do that. A lot of times you get asked like, Hey, can you write my Can you write your name on a piece of paper or you know this or that I don't do that because they can actually literally in Photoshop take that out and put something else in they can? And I just don't want to play with that. You know what I mean? I'm like, I know and also i really i to me, I don't know why I feel this way but I am not writing another person's name on my body. I don't have any names on my body and it's not gonna gonna happen. It just to me is No.

Nick VinZant 16:25

Are those kinds of requests are they frequent? Or do you just like get them where you get them sporadically? Favorite, your favorite type of scene?

Alexis Fawx 16:33

My favorite type of scene? I don't really pick favorites. I don't really do this kind of stuff. Because every scene can be great. I like I really don't have like I don't really don't pick favorites. I don't pick favorite male actors or female actors. I don't pick this thing over that thing. I really kind of take x age experience for what it is. And it's not really in my interest or I care to pick favorites of any sort. I enjoyed the PC and I enjoy ALCS I enjoyed my boy girl scenes I just simple that scenes, girl girl scenes. Dialogue days, it doesn't. I don't really have a favorite.

Nick VinZant 17:19

Just kind of whatever's

Alexis Fawx 17:21

whatever. Like the variety that I'm able to have at work like it's not like I don't go to their office and open open up the same book every day.

Nick VinZant 17:28

What is your personal favorite porn title? Like the title of a film or a scene that you didn't like? That's a pretty good title.

Alexis Fawx 17:37

Okay, well, I actually wrote a few that are my favorites. I will pick those because I wrote them and imagine them and and then pitch them to to mind geek, actually, I did unbound. And I did the voyer next door. And those were my favorite titles, because those were things that I came up with and they produced and they also came up for nomination for awards. So yeah, they did really well.

Nick VinZant 18:03

pretty popular. When people kind of recognize you out in public, do they usually come like right up and introduce themselves? Or say, Hey, I know who you are.

Alexis Fawx 18:12

It would depend on the person. I mean, when he recognized someone that you saw in the porn industry, would you walk up to them? Or would you be shy about it? Because it's really an individual. You might stare you might look you might, you'll do like the look back like I think I know you or that you can always tell the glands you can always tell in the eyes and it really does individual base some people feel very confident and they'll come up and ask for a hug or a pitcher. Usually as a pitcher. I'm not really into like hugging and kissing. I don't really like that. Um, but you know, I don't mind put my arm around somebody hugs All right, sometimes, but no, don't ask me because we have my face. That's not not allowed. Um, and then there's, you know, you have the individual like, I think I know you from somewhere and I'm like, Yeah, probably internet. I love it also, like whenever they say. Yeah, but I was like, Oh, yeah, that's where I know you. But I don't really watch that much. I'm like, I'm one person you can be honest about if you want to know what Tell me watch porn 24 hours, seven days a week, I could care less like that's that's you. That's awesome. You know, kudos. So it really just depends on the person. People people know that I'm very friendly and very approachable. And I love getting my picture taken with fans. I think that's the coolest thing ever. I'm still like, like I said before, you know, it still feels like the first time that when someone says hey, how can I get a picture with you? It's like, cool. Yeah, of course.

Nick VinZant 19:39

Okay, on a scale of one to 10 with one being like somebody you've nobody's ever heard of. And 10 being the most famous people that you can imagine right? Like a list celebrities, etc. At what level would you say is the most famous person that has tried to get into your DMS

Alexis Fawx 19:58

I don't look at my DMS If you at all I don't look at my DMS on any free public social media at all. So if there's anybody sitting in there I'm never going to read it never going to answer it. If you want to get my dm then you would definitely have to subscribe to me and if there's people or celebrities that are subscribed to me and stuff like that, that's their business not mine and I would also never

Nick VinZant 20:20

say what's your best gardening tip?

Alexis Fawx 20:23

Oh yeah, somebody that knows I'm a gardener that's kudos to your fan on that one. Or to your audience on that yes, I garden indoor and outdoor I love growing cannabis. Especially I like popping up from seed I've The reason why I like growing cannabis is because it's such a key plant really communicates with you you know when needs water you know when it needs nutrients you just have to watch it and look at it in such a good plan to learn from but I will grow anything I've men's just noticed my artichokes actually coming back through the weather's nice wenli here in Vegas. I've got a hydroponics garden going in my living or my plant room which is a debit tomato plants was going wild oregano I love growing a lot of my own herbs and stuff because I like to make my own teas but I literally if I can if I get a seat I'll try to grow it I love gardening

Nick VinZant 21:18

your favorite marijuana right now

Alexis Fawx 21:23

favorite I guess probably favorite strains with their asking

Nick VinZant 21:27

I think that's mean yeah yeah well

Alexis Fawx 21:32

yeah it's funny and they all have such weird names anymore like you know I just people give me a lot of weed so I smoke when I'm given

Nick VinZant 21:44

just because that's

Alexis Fawx 21:47

where it kind of goes along with the podcast and the comedy show because it is cannabis friendly and so people would like to get you know me promote them on my show or have them I don't have me try it out promote their item but as far as strains go like I've just I don't even pay attention really anymore I kind of like pay attention to say okay, I look at the terpenes and I look at like what I've been told and and kind of go by that like okay well I wouldn't want this to make me a little bit more hungry or I want this to make me a little more tired or or depends if I'm being creative I might you know want to go more to diva dominant and that's more just I don't know there's I don't really, as far as naming strains I went through like a Sunday driver. That was my favorite for a while I went through a whole kick of Sunday driver. But and then there's jack and it was like old school.

Nick VinZant 22:36

Ah, that's pretty much all the questions I got is are kind of anything that you think we missed, or what's coming up next for you.

Alexis Fawx 22:43

Um, well, I mean, definitely go out and buy my coffee Hi, AF coffee calm. We're collabing again with the another beer astronomy l works here in Vegas. We're tapping the keg on October 16 at corys, which I'm really excited about. But yeah, and our first beer went did so well. We're going to be canning it. So my coffee is going to be on part of a can of beer, which is really neat. I never thought that was going to happen. But it did. I don't know like like i said i'm My dream is just keep popping up and coming true. So I'm pretty darn happy. Yeah, and check out our podcast

Freestyle Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs

The first time he jumped he was hooked. Now, Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs travels the world looking for 100-foot cliffs and a rush of adrenaline. We talk freestyle cliff jumping, conquering fear and cannonballs. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Halloween Songs.

Jay Briggs: 01:26ish

Pointless: 27:06

Top 5: 40:52ish

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Interview with Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, freestyle cliff jumping and Halloween songs.

Jay Briggs 0:22

After I jumped like the first couple times, I was like, holy shit. This is crazy. Like this is insane. I kind of want to go higher. I'm always scared. Everybody's always scared. So it was a long way down and you're excited. You're scared and if you're not scared, you're probably there's something wrong. Oh, you have to. You can't just do a cannonball and not tell anybody like you're screaming Cannonball and it's your job. But

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think that pretty much everybody at some point in their life has jumped off something fairly high into water. Our first guest though, takes that to an entirely different level. He's been around the world jumping off cliffs, sometimes more than 100 feet high. And doing some just amazing tricks in the process. This is freestyle Cliff jumper j Briggs How did you get into it? And what I mean by that is like when did you really get hooked? Not like the first time you went but like man this is my thing.

Jay Briggs 1:35

I know you said not the first time but kind of the first time was actually when I was like whoa this is super sick because like I was I've always been an athlete like my whole life like after high school and sports and it like I was just went to a community college so I would got really into like competitive gaming like in would go to tournaments and stuff like that and just like to compete like that competitive edge to make you feel like athletes still. But when I was like 22 I bought a GoPro and I was like I gotta do something cool. It's like I'll figure it out. And I saw some random girl on my Instagram that I went to high school with she posted that she was like near these cliffs. Oh, that's really cool. Next weekend I drove two and a half hours up there with a couple friends and we are like the edge of a 20 foot cliff it's like whoa this is huge but in hindsight right now that's nothing like I would do it nice clothes, whatever. But after I jumped like the first couple times I was like holy shit. This is crazy. But this is insane. I kind of want to go higher and so literally I was hooked like and from then on when I was 22 so seven years ago I every like I go a little bit higher. Like as soon as I get home like cool that's a little bit higher. Where can I go? What's cool, what's better let's whatever and I immediately start doing that and then I I have an effect.

Nick VinZant 2:46

What was the Why did you get hooked though? What was it about it?

Jay Briggs 2:49

It was something super new because like once you started to get kind of like higher and it's like it's almost like like even when it's 20 feet like essentially it's like it's almost like the rest of your life super adrenaline Holy shit. And you think about it you're like okay, maybe I shouldn't have done that 20 feet not so much but when you get up to higher stuff like 60 7080 100 100 plus feet you know you really hurt yourself. So it was like I got really hooked because it was so exhilarating it's like almost like you're not supposed to do it doesn't mean you can't why not but it like it was just such a like an adrenaline rush and you're just like I need to do that again. And then like but once you do 20 feet like 20 times okay that's there's no more adrenaline here so you kind of have to go for higher you got to go for bigger you got to do different tricks and so it just became an obsession to chase that that feeling of just something that not too many people get to do so

Nick VinZant 3:41

like when does it become dangerous? At what height Are you like? Okay, now now we got to stop messing around for me

Jay Briggs 3:49

specifically. It's like 60 feet where I'm like I should probably be a little bit more careful. But like it depends on your skill level likes like an art like an average viewer of yours specifically like who doesn't do this very often like 15 feets kind of a big deal because like you I mean it's not a huge deal but like you can still hurt yourself like a lot of people when they do it they like land with their arms all out and they slap their arms moved on you know like they are like when they jump and they plug their nose and they start leaning back and then on the back for 15 feet that's gonna hurt so like for me who's somebody who's like super controlled and a lot of my friends are too you know, like 50 feet 60 feet or like yeah, if I flop it's gonna suck but like now I should probably take a little bit more serious and make sure I don't mess anything up. Like when

Nick VinZant 4:33

I think of flopping I'm thinking like a belly flop and I would imagine that that would kill you

Jay Briggs 4:37

now. I've so when I was in Slovenia about a month ago, so there's there's this hotel on the side of a river that let us put a trampoline on our balcony and jump off the the trampoline off their balcony into the river and that was like 40 feet below, right? I flopped pretty bad straight to my back doing a trick I've never tried before and was spitting up loves About a day, so you're not going to die. But it's like I've watched a girl break back from 40 feet. And because she like she landed in like seating position and just compressed her spine, right? If you don't do it right, if your body's not, if you haven't trained for it or whatever, it's gonna suck. I've, I've seen people flop from over 100 feet, and they come out totally unscathed. I've seen people flop from 40 feet and break the back it, it all depends on everything, right? It depends how you landed depends on what kind of water you're in, like, if you're in quarry water out in Vermont, where it's flat, it's gonna hurt a lot more if you land into into, like the froth of a waterfall is like the waterfalls,

Nick VinZant 5:38

I guess, you know, the big, the kind of the question that that I would have is, you're gonna push it, you can push it? How do you know? How do you keep yourself from pushing it too far.

Jay Briggs 5:49

It's all internal. Like, there's a lot of cliff diving in cliff jumping is visualization, like when you start to get up to these high cliffs and high jumps and stuff like that. Or even if it's not even like as high, but it's like something that's like, either kind of sketchy or unique, or whatever it may be like, specifically, there's a place in NorCal, I'm not going to disclose the name, but there used to be a crane that would go over the water. It's like an old gold mining claim that had a crane. And people jump off at about 80 feet. And at that time, I've jumped over 80 feet multiple times, but I've been back to that place like four times. And every time I got up there, like I just wasn't feeling correct. I couldn't like I couldn't visualize what I was going to do safely. Like, every time like I went through my head, like what trick I was gonna do, like something would go wrong, and my hands on my pool of time to back down. So a lot of the times it's just visualization. It's how you feel that day, there's been times where I've backed down from jumps that are like 40 feet, so I'm just like, you're not feeling it right now. If something feels off, I'm gonna step back. Because a lot of the times if you push back then you're like, Yeah, I don't really feel that good. But I'm just gonna do it anyway, like that. So it's a lot of just mental in your, in your head, how you feel on that day is kind of where you kind of start and stop. Well, at least for me.

Nick VinZant 7:02

So it's not one of those things where like, Oh, yeah, I'm a little scared. But I got to push through this. It's like, oh, if I don't feel it,

Jay Briggs 7:08

come back now. Cuz I'm always scared. Everybody's always scared. I mean, there's times where I'm at like a 40 foot cliff, not really that scared. But like, even when you're at like 100 feet, it's always scary, right? So it's like, a long way down, and you're excited, you're scared. And if you're not scared, you're probably there's something wrong. Because you need to be afraid of what you're doing when it comes to cliff jumping like this, like, and especially when we're up 100 plus feet, which we do all the time, it's, you need to be scared, it's good to keep yourself in check. Knowing that like, even though you're scared, like, you know, your body's gonna take care of it type of thing. being scared is normal. But if you're like, I'm not visualizing, right, I'm not feeling what's going on right now. I'm gonna just step back.

Nick VinZant 7:49

So is there a special way that you're landing? Or am I learning the same way, if I go off a diving board and my buddy's backyard,

Jay Briggs 7:57

when it comes to stuff like what we do, it's Yeah, it's fee first. You can either land a little bit forward, and like, it depends on how high the jump is, obviously. But say you're like 80 plus feet, you land a little bit forward, that can hit you in the jaw and knock you out. If you don't do it correctly, it's happened, I've seen it happen. Or if you land a little bit back, you can slap the back of your head, or you can slap and you can really hurt your spine if you land kind of like with your butt out. So it's like it's always you need you try to be straight up and down every job.

Nick VinZant 8:26

Really? Yeah. So what what kind of in the community is more impressive to do like a trick off a 40 foot jump? Or to just go higher? What's kind of the main thing that people are trying to do?

Jay Briggs 8:37

It's, you know, that's an interesting question, because it's both right. You want to do tricks from the highest you can but also what think what people don't understand doing flips off a high cliff is way easier than just straight jumping from a hot because the thing about jumping just straight is horrifying. And I'm telling you every flip jumper in the world will tell you jumping straight is so much scarier than doing the flip because like when I'm doing a flip my mind's occupied. I'm thinking about stuff where my feet whereas my body, where's the water, looking at stuff. And I'm thinking the whole time, right? So by the time I see the water, my cool, I got like, milliseconds and cool, I'm done. Cool. Everything's great, right? But if I straight jump, I'm just staring at the water the entire time, and it feels like it's twice as high because I jumped off like a 60 foot or a straight jump a few months ago when we were in Oregon. And just because the takeoff is super slippery, like I couldn't get my footing right to do the trick I wanted like it just didn't feel comfortable. So I straight jumped in. And it felt it was only 60 feet and I've jumped it like multiple times before but it felt like it was like 200 feet tall and like I got butterflies because just straight jumping is terrifying compared to doing flips.

Nick VinZant 9:50

I never would have thought that.

Jay Briggs 9:51

Yeah, most people think it's the opposite. Like isn't doing trip. No, it's way easier. It's way funner being doing straight jumps is stressful. I don't know I hate they do it sometimes to scare myself like we do it sometimes just to like, let's let's, let's freak ourselves out Well, let's just do it straight down.

Nick VinZant 10:08

I always remember you know, like when you because you know, you jump off something and you jump off something and it's pretty high, and then you jump off something else and you get like that where you really get going like oh, yes hi.

Jay Briggs 10:21

Yeah right because it happens a lot like I've definitely experienced a few times it's it's what's called flow state my, my roommate Nick actually made a flow state documentary about cooking up in and it's an hour and a half feature length film on YouTube, right? And it's I describe it in that as well. But it's like when you're in the flow state, your mind is just in this in the zone essentially right? And you shut everything off and there's times where you go for these big jumps. And it's completely silent until you hit the water. And it's like you don't hear anything. You don't hear people cheering you don't hear the rushing of the waterfall or anything. And the only thing you hear right when you hit the water Okay, we're good we're clear back in the back to normal we're good and then you come up and you're excited whenever like during the jump like it's kind of when fear shuts off as soon as you step off the cliff because you're you're you're already past it you've done the hard part. Now it's just getting to the bottom safely it gets you everything shipped off it's silent. It's kind of crazy

Nick VinZant 11:18

how much like how much of a depth of water do you need

Jay Briggs 11:23

for something big like that we aimed like for a minimum of 15 feet we we've jumped off stuff more shallow and it's sketchy we jumped off this 80 foot cliff once into about like eight or nine feet of water and horrible idea we did it anyways stupid it was like when we were really young into the end of the scene and it was it was stupid and when you hit and you're just laying down on the bottom in the sand because you're you've got as far as you could it's not good but you so you aim for about 15 feet that gives you a good enough stopping point because even if you do Touch bottom likely you won't touch it

Nick VinZant 11:56

hard. Yeah,

Jay Briggs 11:58

yeah and a lot of the times like with us we wear shoes or not anymore really barefoot mostly but you wear a lot of wetsuits and stuff when it when you come to high heights like that because it's a it's a safety thing. Because say you were to hurt yourself, you float back up the top if you're unconscious if you're in a wetsuit, you'll float to the top because they're super buoyant. So we wear those on big ones in case you hurt yourself and you need essentially assistance right? So wetsuits really slowly down in terms of in terms of like how deep the water

Nick VinZant 12:29

I was wondering about that because I saw some of your Instagram videos and everybody was wearing a wetsuit and I just assumed the water was cold and I kind of was I kind of thought like these guys are so tough but they're worried about some cold water

Jay Briggs 12:41

never for cold water unless we're doing like winter jumping and we do winter jumping when it's like snowing right and it's then you're like wetsuit because it's cold type of thing but usually when we get to high heights we wear a wetsuit strictly for safety factors

Nick VinZant 12:54

is it when you look at it like is it hard to find good places to be able to jump are they just everywhere

Jay Briggs 13:01

depends on how creative you are also like when we went to Slovenia right they don't have a ton of jumping spots but if you know people and you can jump off their their hotel balconies or if you find it insanely cool bridge to jump off the yachts sweet right? But if you don't know what you're looking forwards Yeah, it's really hard. And if you don't know what you're looking for, you don't know like what to look for. Like in the beginning when it comes to like how shear the cliff is like, does the water like do you read something online that says like, no, it's a really deep pool. Whatever. If if you know what you're looking for, it's pretty easy, but it's it's not if you don't know what you're doing.

Nick VinZant 13:37

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Jay Briggs 13:39

Yeah, let's get into the weird one. Let's do it.

Nick VinZant 13:41

Better better jump. Cannonball er can opener.

Jay Briggs 13:46

Can I tell you a funny story about a can opener? Yeah, we're so we're in this place in North Cal and we're at this spot. And this guy was drunk and just clipped up and which is a horrible mix. Right? And he's there and he goes, I'm gonna go to the 60 footer and do a can opener. I'm like, absolutely don't do that. One you've been drinking too. As soon as you reach for your knee, all your weights going to go back and you're going to flop you're gonna really hurt yourself like 60 feets, like no joke. And he goes, Okay, okay, I won't do it. He goes up there. He does it anyway, he lands flat on the back ruptures his frickin spleen. And that's it. And the funny thing is that this spot is right behind the hospital. Like about two miles behind the hospital, so we hiked to the dang hospital. Like, I frickin hate. can openers after that. So Cannonball is the straight answer for me.

Nick VinZant 14:33

Do you have to I feel like you have to call it out though. Oh, you have to?

Jay Briggs 14:38

You can't just do a cannonball and not tell anybody like you're screaming Cannonball and it's your job like

Nick VinZant 14:44

that's the way to do it. Um, easiest trick that looks hard. Hardest trick that looks easy.

Jay Briggs 14:53

Man. that's a that's a difficult question. I feel like specifically for me There's a lot of tricks that are are really easy to like my friends that do the like cliff jumping are also like skiers professional skiers and they'll do stuff like off access and what I mean by that is like you can either do a front flip or a backflip or twist whatever, but they'll kind of go like shoulder over knee type stuff. And it just it turns your body in a way that like I can't understand so sometimes they look really easy and I can't even touch them. I can't do it. So that's the hardest trick that looks easy but the easiest trick that looks or I want to say it's a gainer right it's not something crazy but that's what I do all the time and it looks really easy but like no it looks hard I guess because like you're running forwards you're going backwards everybody always like Aren't you afraid of hitting your head on the cliff? never the case because

Nick VinZant 15:48

I mean if you do it yeah you're way past it by that

Jay Briggs 15:51

right but like people always ask them are you ever hit your head on the cliff or anything? It looks hard, I guess to some people but it's pretty easy and that's the one I've done my entire coaching career that's like I do it off every single Cliff but it's just my favorite.

Nick VinZant 16:07

Our most Cliff jumpers actually good divers and I think the person means by like Could you go competed? USA Swimming trials or something? Absolutely

Jay Briggs 16:16

not. Almost none of us are capable of that. We even really classify ourselves as freestyle Cliff jumpers versus like classically trained divers because you have like these Red Bull events that are everybody's toes pointed. Everybody's judged on every little maneuver, right? But freestyle is a totally different thing in terms of like, you're doing stuff off access. You're doing you're doing stuff with more steez and more layout where they're how many flips how many twists? How straight can you be so we would fail hardcore because we're not following their guidelines at all. Right? They want to see how straight and poised you could be or as freestyle like us, they want to see how cool how sick how different Can you be,

Nick VinZant 16:59

but is the like, do you have that same level of body control?

Jay Briggs 17:04

I'd say me specifically I don't think so. But there's a few people this in this community that can absolutely let would be able to I feel take them on in terms of having body control. Like there's some people like grab a wall read heart read chase rainford, right and be that have ultimate body control that can do any flip any twist and compete with the best of them, but it's gonna look way different. Even though the trick is the same. Like say you go for a double half, right, which is one front flip. And then another front flip with a half twist, right? Having somebody who does a freestyle background versus somebody who is a classically trained background, it would make it an entirely different look. It's It's so it's really interesting,

Nick VinZant 17:46

best type of rock to jump off of

Jay Briggs 17:50

something with a waterfall that's the best one not a rock specifically, like I don't know, I'm not a geologist, but anything where there's a waterfall next to you and you're jumping like into the froth of the water that's the best

Nick VinZant 18:01

best cliff jumping spot in the US best in the world.

Jay Briggs 18:05

I'm gonna say this because it's already blown up otherwise I typically keep these to myself. There's a whole thing with the internet that if you put if you geotag a spot like on Instagram it like especially when you have a lot of followers it gets blown out blown out of proportion the wrong people go there, they literally ruin it to get shut down. So it's like a lot of jamming you kind of keep it to yourself, but this one's already heavily regulated. Have a su by it's the Indian Reservation in the middle of the Grand Canyon. We went there I went back there was 2016 only when we left with 150 people it was this insane event that we went with and the water was beautiful we stayed down the Grand Canyon for five four or five days and jumped everything there with like the world's greatest projectors at the time and I would consider that one of the greatest programming places in the world and in the United States it's incredible it's I have tickets to go back next year they sell out at bid within the first half hour every year that they're on sale and they're it's an incredible place.

Nick VinZant 19:06

Is it just because of like what what is it about it is it I mean obviously it's a beautiful area.

Jay Briggs 19:11

There's there's so many factors for me that the this that like get me there, like for one the sheer beauty you have one you're in the middle of the Grand Canyon, right you have these incredible rock orange rock formations, and then the water is this like Gatorade blue color because of the minerals that are in it. So it provides for an incredible landscape. Other than that, there's cliff jumping spots anywhere from like 20 feet to 130 feet. Technically, you're not supposed to jump. Really any of that they kind of just let people do it, but they don't. They don't want anywhere near the 100 foot or in the 130 footer. We kind of do that. And then the only thing it's like, it's so fun for just vibes in general like outside of cliff jumping, right? Like there's camp spots where they're like, but like they have picnic tables in the river where you can just sit there and Eat food like while you're like waist deep in the water and it's just beautiful so it's like a lot of things like and to be fair um not a lot of people get to experience it like not the standard people that you that are going to make the 12 mile hike in and then stay there for four days and then hike 12 miles out like nobody really does that that's probably also I should have mentioned it's really difficult to get

Nick VinZant 20:21

Is it is it hard on your body? Like could you you can do do 60 footer right can you just do this all day long are you like I got one or two in me

Jay Briggs 20:31

for like 6070 footers like you could do those a few times 510 times and like be like, whatever in your body and be sore the next day like your body's had a lot it's a lot of impact right? But when it comes to stuff like 100 110 110 plus type stuff like I'm usually like a one and done person I'll just do it once I enjoyed it. I had a great time it was incredible and I probably won't do it again.

Nick VinZant 20:53

Will you be like Will you be sore the next day off of 100 foot jump

Jay Briggs 20:59

yes and no I have sometimes it just depends on how long it's been because there was a stretch of time like in like 2018 where we were jumping off like 90 to 100 footers like every other week for like five months just killing it and then so it like my body's used to that point. But if I do it for a while if I don't do it for like three months, four months, six months, and I go to jump off like a 90 foot or 100 footer like yeah

Nick VinZant 21:24

can you make a living off of this?

Jay Briggs 21:27

Yeah, you can it's really really difficult. It's you're really relying on sponsorship money is what it is you're not getting paid by some sort of cliff diving association or Red Bull to go do this stuff. It's basically what sponsors can you get and how can they help you fund your endeavors really, there's only I only know a couple people that are able to do it full time and not actually have a job.

Nick VinZant 21:55

How many times has your swimsuit come off when you hit the water

Jay Briggs 21:59

it's never came off but so the problem is is that they rip from when you hit the impact and your shorts are filled with air and they're hitting the water there's the air in the water like or feuding essentially and so I have shorts all the time that just rip up the sea aside all the time. And it's like there's been times right where I'm one time the pool can't release anymore. Luckily I have a great swimsuit sponsorship that just says they've been sending me swimsuits for the past five years. Animoto they're out of the Netherlands they're an incredible company and they're great guys and they just send me stuff a couple times a year just to fill me up on

Nick VinZant 22:36

stage. best piece of Cliff jumper lingo

Jay Briggs 22:43

oh man that's a good one. I think it's an old surfer term and we've loved to use it and it's called hit in and it's when you when you when you eat shit essentially so like dude you got towed a pit right? It's like I really enjoy like cooking. I'm trying to remember if there's any one that cliffjumper term actually I pointed right this I don't know if anybody how many people in the crypto community really know this but there's a trick that I named is called the triple hope sex really and it's funny because my girlfriend's name is hope I named after her because it's hilarious because I used to always make fiber and just every time so he's like, Oh, I'm like yeah hope so. just random so I named it randomly and it's where you do a front flip a front half to a backflip so it's three flips with one half twist right it's really difficult.

Nick VinZant 23:35

Oh I thought you were like stopping in mid air I was like how do you do the front flap and then I slept with a

Jay Briggs 23:41

half and then a backflip and then I named that the triple hope stuff so that's a piece of cliff jumping lingo that I named and a lot of people call it that and they put me like you see people do it on Instagram captions did a trip did my first trip hope to my first trip hope Saks whatever, but I find that I just want to have I'm proud of that moment and I haven't contributed an insane amount of steps in the journey community besides like helping pioneer like new spots and stuff but that's something I got that's nobody can take that away from me.

Nick VinZant 24:10

Does she appreciate that? Oh,

Jay Briggs 24:13

she's she's she's such a good sport about everything. She's She's incredible.

Nick VinZant 24:19

The other part of that is worst piece of cliff diving lingo lingo. You're like God people can't stop saying.

Jay Briggs 24:27

Worse piece of I think what I hate the most, and it's I think some of us coast jumpers do that. So there's cliff diving, right? And then you have these kids that trampled that come from trampolining into cliff diving because it's kind of like a new step up and they use like, instead of saying like, dub half or triple half, they use the terms of triples and flip this off a cliff and I can't stand it. So Mike wrong sport, man. You're in the wrong sport. You're talking trampolines. We're going to clip that we're not doing it. No trif isn't doing job pass Tripathi. We're not using your terms and I that's something like, I know it's super minor. It's not gonna like the guys it just bothers the crap.

Nick VinZant 25:10

I will say this is a person who knows nothing about it and just hearing that like, Oh, that's annoying, right isn't as you can tell. You're trying too hard, right? The lingo hasn't come naturally, you're forcing the lingo,

Jay Briggs 25:25

right. So it's a totally different community. And

Nick VinZant 25:28

I don't like what's the holy grail?

Jay Briggs 25:31

I really feel like there's not one Holy Grail. I feel like in terms of like cliff diving spots, it's I have a super high place I told you about that's, to me the most incredible place you could get to, like for cliff jumping. But in terms of like cliff jumping itself, I feel like there's no one specific thing. I feel like it's everybody trying to do something new, and create something new that's never been done, whether it's a new flip a new trick, whatever. I think that's really the drive for a lot of people just trying to get as versatile as possible.

Nick VinZant 26:01

That's pretty much all the questions we got, man. Yeah, is there anything else you think we missed or anything like that? Well, I'm

Jay Briggs 26:07

gonna leave everybody with a message. If it gets edited out, like I don't care. Take the time to travel with your friends. Because going out of the country for us, like with your, with your best friends, is some of the most like unforgettable memories. So if you're 20 to 2530, I don't care if it 45 or whatever. Like, going out of the country with your friends, and just having an insane time and doing it's just doing random stuff and not being like, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna stay in a hotel, go stayed in Airbnb with 15 of your friends and go have a frickin blast and just go out, stay out all night, burn yourself out and have hella fun, because that's the best.

Polygraph Examiner John Grogan

John Grogan knows if you’re lying. As a professional Polygraph Examiner, he’s tested everyone from infamous criminals and celebrities, to cheating spouses and lying employees. We talk lie detector tests, how to tell if someone’s lying and the only way to beat a polygraph test. Then, we countdown the Top 5 TV Shows We’d Like to Be On.

John Grogan: 01:35ish

Pointless: 21:45ish

Top 5: 37:03ish

https://www.instagram.com/liedetectorguys (John Grogan Instagram)

http://liedetectorguy.com (John Grogan Website)

Interview with Polygraph Examiner John Grogan

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. I'm coming up in this episode, the biggest lies and the best TV shows.

John Grogan 0:22

It's the best truth telling tool that's out there. It worked by looking at microscopic changes to blood, sweat and breathing as yes or no questions are answered in a specific pattern in almost every big criminal case you've heard of they have taken polygraphs and failed and that's why you didn't hear about them. There is no way to beat a polygraph now, short of bribing an examiner and people try that quite often.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest can tell if you're lying. He's been a polygraph examiner for nearly 20 years. And he's given lie detector tests to everybody from infamous criminals, to celebrities, to cheating spouses. And not only does he have some great stories about the lies he's been told, but also all of the things that I kind of thought about lie detector tests and how they worked. Not really true. This is polygraph examiner, john Grogan. The first question that I would have about polygraph ng is, does this really work?

John Grogan 1:39

In most states, you cannot become a police officer without passing a polygraph. You can't join any federal law enforcement agency without passing a polygraph. It's the best truth telling tool that's out there. Someone comes up with a better one, someday we'll all change to it.

Nick VinZant 1:56

How does it work?

John Grogan 1:59

It works by looking at microscopic changes to blood, sweat and breathing as yes or no questions are answered in a specific pattern.

Nick VinZant 2:08

So it's basically relying on the person to be nervous or anxious or something like that.

John Grogan 2:14

Well, all people are nervous taking a polygraph. That's why we surround the questions of importance, whether it be cheating in the relationship or theft at their work with questions we know they're telling the truth. So the computer has an example of what their body does at this moment, when they're sitting there mad, nervous and upset, but they're truly telling the truth.

Nick VinZant 2:36

Or I guess how accurate would it be? If I told 100 lies, it's going to catch all 100? Or it's going to catch like 95 of them. Like what kind of a polygraph

John Grogan 2:45

is limited to four questions maximum, we did more than that it would be unfocused. So that's part of why we can't use 100 question analogy.

Nick VinZant 2:57

How can we Why is it limited to four? Well,

John Grogan 3:00

all of our polygraph structure comes from the federal polygraph Academy that used your tax dollars for the last 50 years to study polygraph and try new things and modify things. And they found the longest test should be as a 10 question script with 20 seconds in between each question which then totals four minutes to get through one through to the end of the other. And by then that's when your arm is starting to hurt a little from the blood pressure cuff and maybe you're starting to think about the pain instead of the questions you're being asked.

Nick VinZant 3:38

Does it become inaccurate after after a certain amount of time?

John Grogan 3:42

Well, if they're no longer focusing on the questions, then yes,

Nick VinZant 3:47

if you're doing a polygraph test, when do you kind of get to the getting so to speak the like, when would you say like Okay, did you do it?

John Grogan 3:55

is today monday? No. 20 seconds later is today? Wednesday? Yes. 20 seconds later. Do you know who took the money? No. 20 seconds later is today friday? No. 20 seconds later. Did you take the money? Well, we're halfway through the 10 questions script.

Nick VinZant 4:16

Man, it's that fast, huh? No, there's

John Grogan 4:19

20 seconds in between each to let the body calm down from one before we hit you with another.

Nick VinZant 4:25

I guess my impersonate or my interpretation of it was like you're in there for hours with somebody just banging away at console when somebody

John Grogan 4:33

says the test is going to take an hour or two. It's three parts. The pretest is where we explain the equipment and help you develop your one to four questions. The next part, the test is only three four minute chart collections. It's fairly fast. And then the third part post test is discussing the results.

Nick VinZant 4:54

Now how much of this is kind of up to your interpret interpretation as the examiner or Kind of reading tea leaves so to speak? Or is this black and white? Yes or no.

John Grogan 5:04

Now most computer polygraphs come with computer scoring that takes that power away from you of being too easy or too hard on somebody.

Nick VinZant 5:13

So the computer scoring like how does that work?

John Grogan 5:17

It's comparing your blood sweat and breathing on something we know you're telling the truth, to what your blood, sweat and breathing get on the important question. And also on a third question, third type of question.

Nick VinZant 5:30

What's the what's the third type of question?

John Grogan 5:33

It's in what's called a C question. And it's really too involved for this effect to take a week of a polygraph school to study that third question.

Nick VinZant 5:44

Now that here's the problem. Now I'm so interested in what the third question like can you give me an example of what the third question would be?

John Grogan 5:51

Well, if I'm here, because you're accused of stealing money at your employer, and the employer wanted to write for questions they might be Do you know who took the money? Did you take the money? Do you know where the missing money is? Now? Did you help anybody take the money? That see question might also be a theft question, but from a different time in your life. It might be prior to working here. Did you ever steal any money from someone who trusted you in the federal polygraph Academy? In all the money and time they spent is found that that's a good question to ask as a third type of question during a test.

Nick VinZant 6:31

Now, Will these results do they generally hold up in court?

John Grogan 6:35

Well, I do them for immigration court, which is federal. That's where most court ones are used in federal court because the US government is the biggest users of polygraph in the world. A lot of people don't know a lot of people are getting their immigration thanks to passing a polygraph test.

Nick VinZant 6:53

I didn't know that at all. Wow. Is there any examples of a major crime, felony murder, etc, in which somebody has been convicted solely off a polygraph test?

John Grogan 7:08

Well, New Mexico for example, they allow polygraph is evidence the same as any other evidence with no special procedure. Other states, you either need both sides to agree to before the test, or have the judge override it.

Nick VinZant 7:25

When when you kind of score somebody based on whether or not they're telling the truth. Is it it's a probability like there's a 90% chance that they're lying, or 10% chance that they're lying? Or how does that work?

John Grogan 7:37

There's two levels of accuracy with a polygraph. The first is the blood sweat and breathing is for devices attached to you. That's pretty much 100%. Because it's just medical equipment, truly reading your blood sweat and breathing changes. Then the other level of accuracy is when we take the results and make a call pass or fail. And that's held to be over 90% accurate. They get the 90% to 95% is true later, other evidence appearing or confessions. They match it to what the polygraph said and 9.5 out of 10 times the polygraph had the correct answer.

Nick VinZant 8:19

Is this would you say like looking at it in terms of court cases, is this growing in its acceptance about level or declining and its acceptance in use.

John Grogan 8:31

Usually in communities where you can't become a police officer without passing one. Those are the areas where most judges allow them in court. If it's important enough of a tool to let somebody become a cop. Based on that, then it certainly should be usable for evidence and polygraph even if it was only 90% accurate. They allow other evidence in like eyewitness testimony you say it was a purple car, I say it was a brown car. Yet that's allowed in his evidence. And that's eyewitness testimony is wrong 50% of the time,

Nick VinZant 9:04

I feel like I'm going to do a really bad job framing this question. So I'm going to hope that you kind of understand what I mean by this. But can it pick up on say, lies of omission in the sense that like, Did you eat the sandwich? And no, I didn't eat the whole sandwich but I ate 70% of it. Can it kind of stuff up?

John Grogan 9:27

That's why we have to be very accurate on the questions they need to be yes or no answerable. Three to 19 words seems to be the best. And no ands ORS or commas. So for example, I might ask you Did you kill that man and you're thinking I didn't kill him the bullet I shot out and killed him. So that's why we asked did you shoot the man? Or did you shoot the gun that shot the man, you've done this before.

Nick VinZant 9:53

That makes a lot of sense now but let's say that you had somebody that wasn't as experienced in yourself. And they didn't frame that question correctly, like the way that you framed it, would it still pick up that somebody was kind of committing a lie of omission that like, Hmm, I didn't kill the guy, I just pulled the trigger and the bullet did it. If somebody who wasn't as experienced as yourself asked a question in that way, would the system still be able to tell that they were like?

John Grogan 10:24

Well, the reason it's called a lie detector, not a truth detector. An example is, there's a homeless guy that lives downstairs from my office, and he tells people, I am Jesus Christ. If we were to do a test on him, he wouldn't fail. He is not lying. Now, we're not saying he's Jesus Christ, we're saying he's not lying. He truly believes it to be true.

Nick VinZant 10:48

So could somebody who let's use a dramatic example, kill someone, if they just absolutely believe that they didn't do it? Even if there was like video evidence that clearly shows them? They did it? If they didn't believe it? Can they pass the test?

John Grogan 11:04

Yes, it's not something they can train themselves to do if they were so drunk or blacked out and really don't remember it. They will pass but if they probably playing games, no, it will catch them their sweat at their fingers will go up dramatically. And we'll we'll call it a lot.

Nick VinZant 11:21

It couldn't just be one of these things that I sat in a room before I took this and just convinced myself over and over and over again, even though I like if if there was any internal thought in my mind that I had done it, I would probably get caught by the by the system.

John Grogan 11:37

If you know you're lying, you'll fail. In fact, one of the questions on the final exam, but most polygraph academies are kind of sociopath or a psychopath be tested? And the correct answer is, if they know they're lying, they will fail.

Nick VinZant 11:54

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions? Sure. So the big one, obviously, is going to be Can people fake it?

John Grogan 12:02

No. Back in the old days until the 1990s. computerized polygraphs didn't exist. It was a roll of chart paper with four moving pens. And it was a struggle and a lot It took hours back then because we had to write furiously as a chart paper was moving. And when it was done, we had to use rulers to make measurements. And with computerized No more ink or paper problems. It's amplified and achievements got scoring software that sees things better than our own eyes did. So there is no way to beat a polygraph. Now short of bribing an examiner and people try that quite often.

Nick VinZant 12:41

What's the most amount somebody has ever bribed you with?

John Grogan 12:44

People have offered 100 to $1,000

Nick VinZant 12:49

did that seem like a reasonable amount for that case? Or did you feel like they should have bribed you with a lot more?

John Grogan 12:55

Well we would never take a bribe so it doesn't matter the amount but let's say a guy his wife found out he was cheating and she would not give them another chance so he's got no benefit of answering the truth tour. They come in and say Mr. I'll give you $500 just guarantee me to pass when we say now we can't even test for you now that you've said that.

Nick VinZant 13:17

So that so the I guess the lesson I would take is bribe the bribe the examiner and then you don't have to take the test kind of right.

John Grogan 13:26

I would bet 99% of examiners wouldn't take the bribe

Nick VinZant 13:30

most interesting legal case you've been involved

John Grogan 13:33

in examiner's do a lot of the tests you see of high profile people accused of killing their wives and whether or not the polygraph would have been admitted in court isn't important to them it when they release it to the public for public relations reasons and almost every big criminal case you've heard of they have taken polygraphs and failed and that's why you didn't hear about them

Nick VinZant 14:01

really so basically if like it's a big case and you don't hear about the polygraph they've probably

John Grogan 14:08

they've probably probably took one and failed.

Nick VinZant 14:11

You do a lot of these things obviously for court like you mentioned immigration court and stuff like that. But now what kind of stuff do you do on the on the civil side?

John Grogan 14:20

On the civil side, not criminal but civil?

Nick VinZant 14:23

Or sorry, I I should have phrased that differently. Um, like personal stuff. Hey, is my spouse cheating on me? Nothing to do with nothing.

John Grogan 14:32

Almost 90% of our work is husband wife, boyfriend girlfriend, gay couples thinking the others cheating? How much does it cost? Anywhere from 145 to 1000. It's the same test whether you pay $1 or 1000. The computer polygraph doesn't know what you charge what you paid. So it's just whatever the examiner charges based on Are there other examiner's in his or her area and then some culture are known for asking certain questions. Also, there are certain cultures that want to know, was I really the first guy you had sex with? is mine. Really the biggest one you've ever seen certain cultures out

Nick VinZant 15:16

there, this is kind of a broad question. But in your, in your experience are most people generally lying or most people generally telling the truth?

John Grogan 15:22

About 5050. I do a lot of failed urine tests from military bases, where guys and gals want to say, I did not knowingly ingest whatever chemical, your analysis says I used. And they're ordered, go get a private polygraph. Because if you don't pass one, you will be out of the service very shortly.

Nick VinZant 15:44

And that's about 5050. Like sometimes they really did these

John Grogan 15:49

things, we fail them and they'll sometimes they'll say, Well, I don't like your test. Okay? I'm not saying you're a liar, but I'm saying you failed a polygraph test, which usually means the same thing.

Nick VinZant 16:00

So obviously, you always go by the test. But can you After all, the your experience? Can you pretty much tell at this point, whether somebody's lying or not, before you even look at the test?

John Grogan 16:12

I can tell only while I'm testing them as I watched them live on the computer screen, but looking at them personally. No, I can't tell

Nick VinZant 16:20

you. Is there somebody that stands out in your mind? And obviously you don't have to name names or anything like that. But is there anybody that stands out in your mind that it was like man, that person was a good liar?

John Grogan 16:30

No, people that are good liars, they lot of people that are guilty are willing to take polygraphs because they think they're such a good liar, they can beat a polygraph. And then we show them on the screen. After they fail a couple of times, we say we're going to turn on a screen so you can watch yourself live. And they see what their body does on the first couple of questions. And they can see when we get to the important question, what a major difference it is yet they thought they were in control of their body.

Nick VinZant 16:59

You know, some of the things that I've always heard of like you can tell somebody's lying if they look around, or if they blink a lot or anything like that. Is there any truth to that kind of stuff?

John Grogan 17:07

while they're studies that say when went out? Ask you have you ever stolen anything since you've been an adult? If you're while you're thinking of your eyes go to one side it means you're truly trying to remember and the other side it looks is means you're trying to make up an answer.

Nick VinZant 17:24

What's the biggest lie somebody has ever told you? It could

John Grogan 17:27

be but a lot we work for a lot of marijuana dispensary. So those are all cash businesses. They can't get a bank account. Sometimes they take in 100 or 200,000 a day. An employee can take 50,000 and not even be known for a couple of days. So Bell saying no, I didn't take it and we see they're wrong. And when we tell them they're wrong, that's when they say we'll give you a big chunk of money if you say that I passed

Nick VinZant 17:54

best scene in a movie depicting someone taking a polygraph test.

John Grogan 17:59

Well people talk about that. Folks movie I can't remember the name a guy using an antique polygraph. And that's back when people used to put a tack in their shoe to try to interfere with polygraph results.

Nick VinZant 18:14

Oh, that's one of the oceans movies isn't it? It's like a gambling but

John Grogan 18:18

but there was one of those it's Meet the Fockers.

Nick VinZant 18:21

Oh right. Right. Right. Right. was that? Was that in any way so somewhat accurate?

John Grogan 18:29

Um, it's how we did it in the 80s before computerized came out?

Nick VinZant 18:34

What's the worst polygraph scene in a TV show or movie where you went off? That's not anywhere near accurate?

John Grogan 18:41

Well, we see them wiring to the fingers and putting them backwards where the moisture devices are touching their fingernails instead of their fingerprint areas, things like that.

Nick VinZant 18:53

What advice would you give to me or to anybody listening if they were about to take a polygraph test?

John Grogan 18:59

to do your best you need to answer yes or no with your mouth only no head movements or body movements. If you shake your head yes or no, it'll make your body change the same as if you had lied. So we just want the truth we don't want you to fail due to moving so answer with your mouth only.

Nick VinZant 19:18

Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything that you think that I missed or anything like that?

John Grogan 19:25

Sometimes people ask us what if he uses drugs? Is that going to change the results? polygraph just to comparison test. So if they take a drug and it slows their breathing or blood, it's also going to slow it on the other questions, not just the client questions, and we're still looking to see if the client questions have a bigger reaction than the known truthful, or the third type of questions. There's no drug that can help someone pass as long as they can still walk and talk. The drug won't change anything.

Nick VinZant 19:58

How did you get into this

John Grogan 20:01

I was a regular private investigator and started getting more and more calls for it. In most counties, in most states, there's less than one polygraph examiner per County. For example, California has 58 counties, there's 10,000 private investigators, but there's only 50 private polygraph examiner's. Why is that? Why? It just doesn't attract people. They make movies and TV shows about private investigators, because that's exciting. They don't make them about lie detector people.

Nick VinZant 20:35

But you would think that at some point, that there would just be enough of a demand that people could like, man, there's this is an open area, I could jump into this. How come?

John Grogan 20:46

It is a profession that those in it, try to keep others out. They tell them Oh, it's too hard to learn. Oh, it's boring. The equipment's too expensive, because they want to keep the work for themselves.

Nick VinZant 20:58

How expensive is this stuff? How expensive is equipment,

John Grogan 21:02

there's four brands of computer polygraph. It's kind of like comparing Honda Toyota Nissan, and maybe Kia. one's a little less known, but probably still just as good. What you get fit in a shoe box and a cost you four to $6,000.

Nick VinZant 21:17

That's not a huge startup cost. Not not in the grand scheme of but the schools

John Grogan 21:21

are 10 weeks long, and a lot of people don't have that time to put into a school. There's only town in the whole United States.

Taxidermist Allis Markham

Part scientist, part artist. Allis Markham is one of the world’s premier Taxidermists. She specializes in bringing exotic animals back to life for museums and science centers. We talk Taxidermy, interesting animals and the growing science of Nassology. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things You Should Always Keep.

Allis Markham: 01:23ish

Pointless: 29:45ish

Top 5: 42:00ish

https://www.preytaxidermy.com/pages/about-prey (Allis Markham Website - Prey Taxidermy)

https://www.instagram.com/allis (Allis Markham Instagram)

Interview with Taxidermist Allis Markham

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, award winning taxidermy, and stuff you should always keep,

Allis Markham 0:23

we're taking their skin off, like you would peel an orange. And then we're creating a structural representation of what's inside of them. Occasionally, I'll take what's called a death mask. And what that is, I'll make a very careful mold of the face. When I see the similarities when I scan animals, and I noticed the similarities to humans, it's much more jarring than the differences.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is part scientist, part artist. And she specializes in bringing exotic and everyday animals back to life from museums and science Center's she's one of the best taxidermists in the world. And she's won all kinds of awards. This is taxidermist Alice Markham. So is this more of an art or more of a science,

Allis Markham 1:26

that's what I love about taxidermy is that it sits in a place between art and science. So I have to initially when I'm working on something, you know, you're very much a scientist in taking it all apart, right? And then you really have to utilize artistic skills to reassemble the specimen. But then scientific ones to know how to make it biologically accurate. So you get to be both. And that's the fun of it.

Nick VinZant 1:54

So I know nothing about this. And I'll be honest, like when I used to go to museums and places like that, I didn't realize those were real animals. I thought that this was something that they made, like in graphics, art department or something like that. You're you're using real animals, right?

Allis Markham 2:11

Yes, absolutely. So what will happen is basically is an animal will die these days, we're not so much going out to collect things like they did in the 17 and 1800s. Mostly today, an animal will die at a zoo or be founded, unfortunately, animals get hit by a car, and then an institution will acquire them, right, they'll put them in a freezer is a fancy way to say. And then they will come to me, I'll pick these up whole frozen, and then I will taxidermy them, right. So we take the first part, as I said, was taking them apart, right? So we're skinning them, we're taking their skin off, like you would peel an orange. And then we're creating a structural representation of what's inside of them. So there's no bones, there's no organs, the eyes are made out of glass, all of that. So really, the only thing that's real on them is the skin. I mean, there are exceptions, right? In birds, you're going to leave in some of the bones. But for the most part, taxi domain, right, the arrangement of skin taxidermy, it's just that we're just arranging the skin, the rest of sculpture,

Nick VinZant 3:26

I grew up so in small town, Kansas, and when I think of a taxidermist, like I think of Bob's taxidermy down the road, and I always heard it as referred to as like, hey, go get the animal stuffed. But is, is that what you're doing? But on a much higher level? Or is this a completely different kind of thing than like, Gus, who could do the bobcat you shot for 20 bucks down the road, so to speak?

Allis Markham 3:53

Well, Bob's taxidermy and Gus, they're doing essentially what I'm doing. They're not stuffing anything. In fact, fun fact. If you're like, if you use the word stuffed or to stuff around taxidermist, like, Bill, them's fighting words. I don't come in. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, I'm trying to

Nick VinZant 4:18

disrespectful. It's like, it's an oversimplification, right. Oh, yeah,

Allis Markham 4:21

exactly. Because we're not stuffing anything. What we're doing is again, like we're creating this inner sculpture. Now look, some people are going to go to more trouble to create that inner sculpture and bring a lot more art to it than others. Right. So you know, if it's like someone who does hunting trophies and all of that, even within that there's different levels. Yeah, there's someone you can take some things to and very cheaply get something done, and you'll get a cheap product back. But that's like any industry, right? You're going to get what you pay for texted or misses the same thing. But the difference I guess, between somebody who does trophy work or commercial taxes, as it's called, and then museum people is that we're always kind of doing custom work. Everything is, you know, we need it to outlive us. So it's different in that regard. But it everybody is. It's still everybody's still artists, right?

Nick VinZant 5:18

How did you get into this? Like, Was this something that you found yourself in? Or was this something that as a young girl you thought, taxidermy?

Allis Markham 5:27

You know, it's funny, it's something I kind of came back to. I grew up in Indiana and Florida, and I loved nature and outdoors. And I would find bones and just be fascinated, right? I mean, I was just all of that, like coming home with like lizards in my pocket and stuff. And you did a lot of art growing up, did a lot of sculpture. And then somehow, as an adult, I ended up in marketing, right, I worked for Disney in social media marketing. And I was there for a while. And I ended up making good enough money to quit. Good enough money to be like, this is not what I want to do. I mean, I really looked around, I was director level at Disney in my mid 20s. And I was miserable. And so it looked around, I was like, What do I want to do? And I'd been collecting taxidermy for some time, and like, kind of playing with maybe wanting to learn how to do that, and loved the Natural History Museum. And I answered that question for myself and being like, you know, what, I want to work in museums. And I want to be a taxidermist. So I really set out to do this. I didn't like find myself in it. Um, but so then I quit my job at Disney and I went to a brief taxidermy program up in Montana, got back stopped the museum, taxidermists here in LA it natural history museum, and like, talked my way into an apprenticeship. I don't even know how, and yes, over a decade ago,

Nick VinZant 7:02

in terms of like a scientific, so to speak education, like how long do you have to go to school, go to training, apprenticeship, that kind of stuff?

Allis Markham 7:10

So the answer to that is, depends on how quickly you learn. Some people come to taxidermy from an art background, right? went to art school, or just are really good artists. Some people like my mentor, he's a zoologist, who has some amazing artistic skills, right. So it just really depends. I mean, I didn't. I didn't go to school for this. I teach at Occidental College. I don't even have an a college degree. I don't know if they know that. No, they know that. Now, yeah, Oh, I forgot to tell them. But you know, people come from different things. But what I do have is, you know, I apprenticed at the museum under my mentor. For several years, I got to work alongside Kimball Garrett, who's one of the world's leading ornithologist, right? So I have a trade job. And people don't really this is a trade job, even if you're working at the highest level. So but does having a degree help? Oh, absolutely. That'll help you get hired and work at a museum or you know, whatever it is, so, but it's certainly not required. You could just be really good at it and really motivated and get a really good apprenticeship. That's kind of how things are done. I will say, you do want to get an apprenticeship is the way to do it. And I've been lucky enough to have a great one. But I've also traveled and worked under other taxidermist all over the world. And I've had people come here to learn from me,

Nick VinZant 8:43

we kind of touched on it a little bit. But I know that obviously every single animal is going to be different. But let's say you get in a cat, dog, whatever. Like what, how do you do it.

Allis Markham 8:55

So with anything, let's say I get in, get, let's just go with a cat. So I'm like, let's say it's a bobcat. So I get in a bobcat, right, and it's frozen, and it's dead. Initially, I need to take reference. So if you have all these measurements, sheets, and if you go to my Instagram, and you scroll down, you'll see like a measurement sheet. And I'm measuring all these details on the face, the body, all of that. And I will also take a bunch of photos. Occasionally I'll take what's called a death mask. And what that is, is I'll make a very careful mold of the face. And then take that mold off, fill it with plaster and I have a replica of the face. So I'll do things like that. And all of that references giving me a lot of information because now I'm going to take it apart, meaning now I'm going to remove the skin from the rest of the body of this Bobcat. So you know I'll make an incision there's a few different ways to skin a cat therefore And, and then I'll kind of again, I'll peel the skin off like you're peeling an orange, right. And then I end up with a carcass and the skin that are separate many times I'll take the carcass and I'll take a tracing of it on like butcher paper, I'll take it apart all of that. And then I will take the skin and the skin of that cat gets turned into leather. This is a chemical process that's known as tanning. So it just turns it into leather, just like your shoes or anything else except it's got a face. Yeah, so that's turning into leather. And while that's being turned into leather, then I will take all of that reference I have. And I will start to make what we call a form or a mannequin. So I need to replace everything that was inside right in the pose that I want. So the skins off in buckets being tanned right, now I've got a few different options, I can carve something I can utilize all the the reference that I have, and I can hand carve something out of foam. It's a rigid foam, it's called polyurethane. It's like a styrofoam only harder, and I can sculpt it that way, I can order what we call a commercial form, if either taxidermy supply websites, and you can get pretty close to the size and the pose that you want, and then someone like me would alter them, right, like kind of cut it up, carve it a bit chisel away. Once I feel like I've got a pretty good form, right, I'll take the skin. And that'll go over the sculpture, I'll have hide paste in between the skin and the form, I'll have glass eyes, I'll put clay on in the face, like in different ways to make different muscle, great create expression, and the whole thing gets sewn up. And then I let it dry, right. And then it has a spa day, right? Just like you would groom a dog or something, I will take it and shampoo it, condition it blow dry it off everything like that. And like brush everything with a dog brush. And then there's finishing work, I'm going to paint certain things, you know, cats can have a cute little pinky, red nose, I'll paint that, you know all those different things. So that was a really short description of how that would be done.

Nick VinZant 12:25

First of all, that's fascinating. But why not use the bones? Like why couldn't you use the bones in it? How come? They don't?

Allis Markham 12:32

That's a great question. So they used to use the bones up and into until like the 1960s or so. That was before we really were using any type of polymer right in this. The bones are made of calcium, and over time they break down. So if you look at older taxidermy, you'll see sometimes it's like kind of collapsing in on itself, what they would do is take the bones and go over them with burlap and plaster. So over time, this will become brittle. And it's also extremely heavy. So it's just we don't need to use the bones. You have an understanding of anatomy enough that the bones don't really need to be there.

Nick VinZant 13:19

Did this taxidermy last that long?

Allis Markham 13:22

text? Are we Yeah, I mean, I've repaired things, you know, or gone in the museum and done maintenance on some things that have been around since? Yeah, like the 1800s. That should last a very long time.

Nick VinZant 13:35

I really thought you were gonna say like 20 years.

Allis Markham 13:41

If something's done, right, like there is taxidermy that only last 20 years, because someone was like, we don't need to take off all the fat. And then bugs come and eat it. Like that certainly happens. But yeah, if you go, I mean, there's taxidermy from the 1800s, early 1900s. And some of it still looks amazing. today. If you go to the Field Museum, there's a gentleman who's considered the father of modern taxidermy, anti ramas, named Carl akeley. And his I mean, his tax form is there. It's from the late 1800s. And what's incredible, gosh, yeah.

Nick VinZant 14:15

So like, okay, when you're doing something, how accurate Do you have to be save the nose on this animal is two inches to 2.15 inches? Like, do you have to get it to 2.15 inches? And if it's 2.14, that's not good enough? Or do you just have to get it pretty, like where somebody can eyeball test?

Allis Markham 14:35

I mean, you know, it depends, right? So what is your viewing distance, so you want to get it as close as possible, but when you're working in a museum to and let's say you're doing 4050 pieces for them and you're on a budget and whatever, you know, you can always spend the amount of time on one piece that you would like to or whatever. I work in millimeters. I get as close as I possibly can, when things dry, they shrink down a little bit. So you can't always control for certain things. But I mean, you should get I mean, you're working with an organic specimen that would sit at a certain size, so you should be able to get pretty close. I mean, if you're far off the mark, then like, that's a problem. But if you're within a few millimeters, depending on what it is, I think that's it's very acceptable.

Nick VinZant 15:28

Do you I mean, this may be some of my personal feelings coming in there. Does it ever feel weird? Like this was a living animal?

Allis Markham 15:36

Sometimes, um, you know, I certainly haven't lost my respect for every animal that comes in the door. Some things Hit me harder than others, though. You know, mountain lions, because they get hit by cars. When I get one of those, it kind of bums me out. But because it's just such a, I mean, they're bigger than me. I'm a tiny lady. So a lot of times are bigger than me. And it's just like, wow, and you kind of see how they died. And all that and knowing that it's because of, of people is upsetting. Same with just like, I got it some albatross. And they're just stunning dream birds of mine. But, you know, I think the real differences is I don't often take on pets. Just because it does feel different. There's an emotional weight to working on somebody's pet versus a wild animal. And there's a lot of time, you know, extra time you put into it with a domestic animal. And those, like, those, like they hit me hard. Because I you know, I love animals, I have dogs, the whole thing, and it just feels different. And yeah, I'm kind of losing my words here. But it really does feel different when it's someone's pet.

Nick VinZant 16:56

Putting all humbleness aside, why are you good at it, basically.

Allis Markham 17:00

Oh, why am I going to taxidermy? Um, you know, I think it's because I don't put a lot of ego into it. I'm really excited to learn. I'm always learning, right? I work in a lot of different animals. So every time I sit down is usually a different animal. I'm not cranking out like, you know, 50 pelicans a year like No, do this. It's all It's all right. So if I'm not willing to learn, or keep learning, then all my birds are going to look like this one bird, all my mammals really like that one mammal. So I have to keep evolving and keep learning. And I think another part of that is not just on this specimen. But there's a lot of people with way more experience than me. There's a lot of people with way more knowledge than me and more skill, and am I willing to put aside what I think that I know, and actually learn from them. So I, you know, I'm grateful every day to allow myself to feel stupid and just listen to other people. You know, I think I'll do a lot of work on researching things. I'll do a lot of reaching out to other taxidermist and be like, hey, how did you get the blood out of this seagull? Like it's, you know, things like that. So yeah, just just learning.

Nick VinZant 18:22

Okay. Are you ready for some Harder, harder slash listener submitted questions?

Allis Markham 18:27

Sure. Yeah, all taxidermists are pretty much batshit. Crazy. So really, yeah, myself included. Well, we all kind of work alone, like you got to be pretty. Okay, with being different if you're going to sit down and work with dead animals, and you've got to really not give a shit what people think about you for starters. That's true. You know what I mean? Because everyone has things that they say. I mean, I've been called like, Norman Bates, Cruella de Vil. Like all of that, you know, I get all that everyone thinks like, I'm a mortician. So I think you got to be not care what people think about you if you're going to be a taxidermist, and then you actually have to be able to sit down and do the work of taking something completely apart. Just to put it back together again. And so it looks exactly the same. Which is crazy when you think about it. Like what an odd thing to do.

Nick VinZant 19:22

Yeah, he's kind of when you think about it, right? Like,

Allis Markham 19:25

yeah, I do get a ton of work on this just so it looks like it did in the first place.

Nick VinZant 19:31

So many good slogans for taxidermy taxidermy. We don't give a fuck. Back, but back to the listener submitted questions. Easiest animal hardest animal?

Allis Markham 19:46

Whoo. That's actually really good question. Okay, so the easiest animal to do. Oh, you know what, armadillo. I'm gonna put a caveat on this hard animal to take apart right? You get an R armadillo. And if you're familiar with them, right, they have these like shields going down their back. annoyingly, they are connected to the spine. So you kind of have to hollow them out like you're like you're hollowing out a watermelon or something just not as juicy and way too stinky and they can have leprosy. So imagine a watermelon like that. You're welcome. And then, but, you know, so that's hard, but when you put them back together, they are, everything is shaped by that shield. So there's no feathers to groom, there's no hair to lay in the correct position, whatever. So, I mean, not that I would do this, but I have a theory, you could just fill them up with some spray insulation foam and call it a day. I you know when I say that, like it'd be a funny experiment, and I think they would have been perfectly fine. And I'm not one to say things like that. I'm a perfectionist, but that has to be the easiest thing.

Nick VinZant 21:01

What's the one we like all my gosh,

Allis Markham 21:03

I'm quite probably a really delicate bird. I would say like a dove. A dove has a very thin skin. So a dove. If you were to skin something like let's say a j just a blue j, they're, they're pretty feisty, and they have a really tough skin just the way that they are right. It's like wet paper towel. But a dove is like skinning wet one ply toilet paper. It's like if you look at it wrong, it's just gonna fall apart. In fact, holding the skin up. If you're just to hold the skin up lifted, its own weight would break it. It's just extremely delicate. And then the feathers just want to flat fall out. So you can end up with a pretty big mess on your table and not a lot of bird.

Nick VinZant 21:54

Is there one that like, Is there an animal that like can do it?

Allis Markham 21:58

I mean, I thought I wouldn't be able to do baby hummingbirds. But I did. I was surprised when those turned out and they're on my Instagram. They belong to Occidental College, I did a little baby hummingbirds in a nest. And the mom is like hovering and feeding them. And I'm really proud of that that was there the size of insects. They're really small. But yeah, I'm happy about those

Nick VinZant 22:24

animal that made you go, oh my gosh, that's what this thing looks like when you opened it up.

Allis Markham 22:30

I mean, I'm going to take that back to the armadillo. Those are pretty weird when I opened it up. But I will also say, sea lion. So sea lions are pinnipeds. And they have the weirdest, like when I skinned out the flipper, one of the front feet of a sea lion. It looks like a human hand with the longest fingers you've ever seen. But so human looking. Oh, it was just when I see the similarities when I scan animals, and I noticed the similarities to humans, it's much more jarring than the differences. Is Sony.

Nick VinZant 23:13

The same? Yeah, I mean, we are all descended from eventually at some point, the same thing, right? It is crazy.

Allis Markham 23:20

We're all the same machine. We're just configured in different ways. But if you look at the wing of a bird, it's the exact same bones as our hands and our arms. Right? It's just it's the same machine it's just configured a little differently for whatever that machine is doing.

Nick VinZant 23:37

prehistoric animal you like a crack at

Allis Markham 23:41

Archaeopteryx. It's like an ancient kind of, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but it's an ancient, it's like a paleo bird. But then the paleontologists dyno people are like, no, it's a dinosaur. I don't know I'm probably gonna yelled at by one or the other of them. But Archaeopteryx so for some

Nick VinZant 24:00

reason, for some reason, I really thought you'd say woolly mammoth. I feel like

Allis Markham 24:05

oh, they're just so elephant like, and I feel like they're so well understood that, you know, I like a challenge. And that'd be really fun to do, but it would be really similar to, I would say, an elephant of today, whereas an Archaeopteryx is like, way different. And I'm such a bird nerd. I feel like if I didn't name a bird, it would just be a bee cheating on on birds or something.

Nick VinZant 24:34

Um, I don't know what that one is supposed to mean. Oh, this one just says is this a growing or a shrinking industry?

Allis Markham 24:44

Are you asking if it's a dead art? To me a little pun. Um, it's growing at but I think the part of it. So what I think is shrinking is I think a lot of trophy hunting is shrinking. You're just not getting a lot of people out. There. Hunting is As much as you did, but what I think is growing, is people interested in learning about it for museums and art. I'm basing this anecdotally on the amount of students that I have. I was teaching through Atlas Obscura online, you know, during the pandemic, and I'll probably do that, again, I have over 300 students in one of my classes from around the world. So 300 students willing to pay money to spend three consecutive Saturdays learning taxidermy online. That's crazy. I've also had the pleasure of going to Australia to teach, you know, 50 different students there. I've had, you know, I've taught over 1000 individual students in my in person workshops. And if you just go on Instagram, you know, that's where I mostly AM. There's so many, I mean, especially women, I'm getting into taxidermy that you didn't see before. So that that's really starting to happen. And we're seeing a lot more diversity too.

Nick VinZant 26:10

Okay. Here's the question that you either always get asked, or no one has ever asked you but always wonders this. could you do this to a person?

Allis Markham 26:20

Yeah, I always get asked that. So I, you know, my answer is this taxidermy, of an animal looks best when that animal is covered in fur or feathers. Let's talk about why. If you have a leather handbag, it's been tanned just like a mammal skin would be tanned, right? It's gone through that same process I talked about before, it doesn't have fur on it. So it looks like leather. So if we take a person, and we do that same process where we turn the skin to leather, and it doesn't have fur on it, they're going to look like that handbag, with eyes and a nose and a mouth, but the skin's gonna look leathery, right?

Nick VinZant 27:03

Like a seven year old Florida retiree is what I'm imagining just burned in the sun.

Allis Markham 27:10

Yes, exactly what I was thinking of. So it'll look like that. Um, there are some things you could do. There's a process called wax infiltration. It's similar to like the body worlds thing where it's plasticization. You know, but it's a really difficult process. It's very slow chemical process, where essentially, you're inundating the skin with a paraffin wax. So it'll look more like a wax museum situation. So you could do it. Um, but it would take a long time, be very expensive. And then if it got too hot, they would melt a little. So I wouldn't want to do it.

Nick VinZant 27:49

Do you get asked that question. A lot. And how do you feel about getting asked that question like, Do you worry about people because they constantly asked her? Do you feel like that's a natural part of people's curiosity?

Allis Markham 28:01

I mean, I feel like that's a natural part of people's curiosity, because you're looking, you're like, can that happen to me? You look at animals, and then you imagine your own body and what the process would look like on yourself. And so I actually like i don't i think it's an interesting question. I it tells me the person's like actually kind of thinking about it. They're internalizing it and thinking about it.

Nick VinZant 28:25

That's pretty much all the questions I have, is there anything else you think we missed? Or what's coming up next for you?

Allis Markham 28:32

if we missed anything, I'll say like, what's coming up next in my world, and we working on a couple different nature centers in Orange County, I'm excited about that. I have a big backlog of work I need to catch up on before that, because I was not someone that thrived in COVID. I was wildly depressed. So you know, so I'm catching up on all of that. And I'm very open about that. Because I see people on Instagram being like thriving and COVID. I'm just like, did not. But um, yeah, so I'm just here catching up on work. And I have a new puppy. I mean, he's like nine months now. But he I think he's still puppy. He's giant. So yeah. Okay. And then they'll go champion. Oh, so this one last thing, too. And also, I have in May, the World Championships of taxidermy are coming up again. So I'm getting ready for that.

Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur

Is what you see, really the way the world looks? As an Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur studies that and more. We talk the latest in optical physics, the possibility of invisibility, coherence theory, meta materials and why movies are wrong about lasers. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Celebrities You Don’t Wanna Share a Name With.

Dr. Greg Gbur: 01:51ish

Pointless: 31:23ish

Top 5: 47:36ish

https://skullsinthestars.com/ (Dr. Greg Gbur’s Blog)

https://twitter.com/drskyskull (Dr. Greb Gbur’s Twitter)

https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300231298/falling-felines-and-fundamental-physics (Falling Felines and Fundamental Physics, Dr. Greg Gbur’s Book)

Interview with Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the latest in optical physics and celebrities, you don't want to share a name with,

Dr. Greg Gbur 0:24

I would say we can't completely say we look exactly the way we think we look. Because a lot of it depends on how our brain interprets stuff. There are predictions that we should be able to build computers that are really based on quantum physics, that can do things that are traditionally impossible.

Nick VinZant 0:46

Could there really be an invisibility cloak,

Dr. Greg Gbur 0:48

it may be in principle possible to do it, but in practice, we will probably never make one as good as people would like to see them. On the other hand,

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't really know very much about optical physics. But I was fascinated to find out just how big of an impact this has on nearly everything around us from light and how we communicate to the future of computers, the possibility of invisibility, even the idea of is the way that we see the world. really how it looks. Our first guest is a professor of optical physics at the University of North Carolina. This is Dr. Greg Gabor. What is optical physics? I don't I don't know what that is, honestly,

Dr. Greg Gbur 1:52

optical physics is really just understanding the physical nature of light and what it is and what it can do.

Nick VinZant 2:00

I don't know what light is, it's something I've never even thought of like it's it's, it's light. What do you mean what?

Dr. Greg Gbur 2:07

Well, yeah, that's a question that's really obsessed scientists and philosophers for centuries. Nowadays, we consider light to be a collection of massless particles that carry energy and momentum, but also have wave like properties. So if you've ever heard the quantum physics, discussion of wave particle duality, light fits that bill when you're looking at, when you're looking at light, your your eyes are collecting a bunch of light particles, which we call photons, that travel through space, behaving like a wave as they're traveling to your eye.

Nick VinZant 2:49

I have no idea what that means. Is, is, I guess my question would be like, Am I too dumb?Or have you guys not quite figured it out?

Dr. Greg Gbur 3:00

I would really say that we haven't quite figured it out yet. And part of the reason for that is when you get down to studying things on that small of a level, the rules that we're used to in our day to day life no longer apply. So the way things behave in our daily lives is very different from the way things behave on this atomic level or below for centuries, or 1000s of years. Nobody ever went any deeper than that. They said, well, light travels in straight lines from place to place and reflects off of shiny surfaces. And when it goes into something like water, it changes direction a little bit. And it took a lot of research for people to realize that light has wave like properties that it acts that it acts in some ways like water waves rippling on a pond or sound waves traveling through the air. And then for about 100 years from 1800 to 1900. People were convinced that light was exclusively behaved like a wave. And then in 1905, Albert Einstein said, Well, no, actually sometimes it acts like a wave. Sometimes it acts like a particle. And we still don't completely understand what that means.

Nick VinZant 4:17

us not completely knowing what it is, is does that have a big, everyday kind of application? Or is that more of an academic exercise?

Dr. Greg Gbur 4:28

more of an academic exercise. So the mathematics and the theoretical idea, understand our theoretical understanding of light is really good. We have computer simulations so we can simulate the behavior of light in all sorts of stuff. And that's made its way into computer games. For instance, there's so many computer games now that have built into their engines, realistic, light interactions, again on this sort of daily scale so you get very realistic lighting effects. The place where things get troubling is just trying to understand what exactly it means and how it fits into a bigger picture of how we should view the universe. But that's still an open question for really, almost every atomic particle or small particles on that sort of tiny atom sizes. We know we can very well describe mathematically what they'll do. But the rules that we've created to study this don't completely make sense.

Nick VinZant 5:36

Like how does this kind of translate into my everyday life,

Dr. Greg Gbur 5:40

most of the study of light that's relevant to everyday life life these days is the wave properties of light. So there are things like, like fiber optic cables, for instance, that are sort of forming the bulk of our communication system with the Internet, and telephone communications, and so forth. All of that requires an understanding of the wave properties of light, largely because we're squeezing the light through these tiny optical fibers. And you really do need the mathematics of the wave properties of light to describe what it's doing. So from a practical sense, a lot of the optical engineering that's being done takes advantage of a good knowledge of the wave properties of light, those quantum particle properties of light. Those are things that really still are not, I would say, in everyday usage. A lot of that individual quantum photon stuff is still in the realm of physics research, as opposed to applications.

Nick VinZant 6:51

I never, I guess I never put that two and two together and thought that fiber optic cables meant that we were sending messages by light. I never, like I just assumed we were it was like electricity or something. I didn't know that what we were actually doing. That's so interesting. And I'm okay, to kind of put things in perspective, like, on a scale of one to 10. One, we know nothing, like we don't even know where this light is coming from or anything. And 10 we got this thing locked down, we got all the answers to every question you can think of? Where do you think that we would be at with light right now?

Dr. Greg Gbur 7:29

Um, I would cautiously maybe say around an eight. We understand the physics of light, we can control light to an incredible extent now we have technology, we know how to produce it, detect it manipulate it. But there are these sort of fundamental unanswered questions that potentially could lead to some surprises in the future. So. And in fact, I like to characterize at the beginning of this new century, around the year 2000, people started working with the concept of what are called metamaterials materials that are not found in nature, but that you can in principle construct in a laboratory. And these metamaterials can have very unusual effects that you don't see in nature, and that people previously thought were impossible. And I like to describe the history of optical physics is that we've spent hundreds of years if not 1000s, if you want to go back to the ancient Greeks, we can go 1000s, but we've at least spent hundreds of years asking, What can light do? Like what are the limitations? What are what can we do with light? What Can't we do with light? And since the beginning of the 21st century, the question is changed a bit? We're now a lot of people are more asking, how can we make light do whatever we want it to do? The idea of a metamaterial really started in the in the late 90s. And the the ideas is that most of the time, when we're trying to do optics, we're working with natural materials like glass. And the optical properties of those materials are really dictated by the natural chemical composition of the material and its natural structure. And then people started saying, Well, what happens if we change that structure on a really small scale on a scale comparable to 10s or hundreds of atoms? Well, it turns out that if you can do that, if you can manipulate the structure of that material on that scale, you can you can make that material have very different optical properties and do very strange things. And that's sort of the birth of this idea. metamaterials is wow, if we, we if we can manipulate the structure of the material on this really small scale, we can do all sorts of things that we previously thought were not possible. However, in general, for for visible light that we can see with our eyes, we still don't know how to very efficiently make metamaterials and it and fabricate them efficiently so that we could use them for commercial devices.

Nick VinZant 10:34

You mentioned the light that we can see with their eyes like what percentage of light can I actually see,

Dr. Greg Gbur 10:39

I don't know about percentages. But visible light is a really small part of the total electromagnetic spectrum. So electromagnetic waves that I was talking about visible light that goes from our reds to our violets. That's what we call the visible range that our eyes are sensitive to. And then on the on the red end of the scale, you go through infrared light, and you go through microwaves, which are another or another type of electromagnetic radiation. And you go all the way down to the low end of the spectrum are radio waves. And if you go on the other end of the spectrum, after violet light, you have ultraviolet light, and then it goes, then the energy of the individual photons goes up and you have x rays or higher energy, all the way up to gamma rays, which you get out of nuclear reactions are very high energy, photons.

Nick VinZant 11:48

Okay, this is probably getting into a little bit of a different kind of subject. But what, you know, the human body in the brain is very, very adept at kind of doing the things that we need to do, why wouldn't we be able to see that? Like, what would be the reason that the, our evolutionary history said, Nah, don't worry about that stuff? You don't need to see that?

Dr. Greg Gbur 12:04

Yeah, that's a really that's a really good question. An interesting one. And I don't want to I don't want to speculate too much on evolution. But my understanding, and my guess would be is that most of the materials that we that most of the most matter that we see, in the real world, is most clearly visible in that in that range of visible light. Well, two things, first of all, things are probably most visible in that visible light range. So it's sort of the ideal range of colors are the ideal range of wavelengths, since we're talking about light waves, for us to see. And the other part of it is the sun. The sun gives off radiation over a large range of wavelengths. But it's really the peak is centered in that sort of yellow region. And it gives off infrared radiation as well, as well as ultraviolet, but it gives off far less of that.

Nick VinZant 13:11

But okay, this would be like, my dumb guy. Question, right? So if we only see these certain wavelengths, is there chances that there are just things out there? Like there's a Blimey be super dramatic to make a point, there's some giant animal that's can only be seen in ultraviolet light floating around in the sky. And it, there's 1000s of them, and we just don't see it, right. Like, I'm being dramatic. But I think you really get my question, right? Are there just all kinds of things, potentially big things that are just,

Dr. Greg Gbur 13:43

we just don't see it? Funny thing is, since I'm actually writing a book on the subject of invisibility right now been delving into the science fiction, and there are a lot of science fiction stories that are predicated on that idea. There's a classic story by Ambrose bierce, called the damned thing which is about a monster that is colored outside the visible spectrum. And there's another there's a novel called the sinister barrier, which is a very bleak novel, which is exactly this premise that the Earth has actually been controlled by these invisible beings, probably since our beginning our existence and then some scientists managed to see into like the infrared and realize that there are these creatures all over. Though the reality is and this goes back to what I was saying about the structure of matter, is that ordinary materials pretty much everything that we see in nature, is at least somewhat visible in the visible light spectrum. And that has to do with the structure of atoms themselves that pretty much every atom And combinations of atoms are at least partly visible or, or significantly visible in that visible light range. And I don't know that there has ever been found any material that somehow there, I don't think there's any material that I've ever heard of that is completely invisible in that range. It's just outside of normal, it would be outside of chemistry as we know it.

Nick VinZant 15:28

So you're saying there's a chance?

Dr. Greg Gbur 15:32

I've learned? I've learned not to say never, because I can get myself in trouble by saying that too.

Nick VinZant 15:39

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions? Since you mentioned it? We'll start with this one. could could there really be an invisibility cloak? Like, could something like that exist? Could we make that someday?

Dr. Greg Gbur 15:54

I'm still I'm still at the level of saying that. It may be in principle possible to do it. But in practice, we will probably never make one as good as people would like to see them. On the other hand, ever there there have been a number of fundamental physical limitations that people have noticed about the idea of making an invisibility cloak. And very recently, in fact, I think it was in late 2019, early 2020. Some researchers came out and said at least one of those major limitations that we thought was kind of a hard physical limitation could be, in principle overcome. So I'm a little more I'm a little more on the side of well, maybe it could happen, though, the technical challenges and making it work are still pretty big. I would think.

Nick VinZant 16:59

This leads us into our next question, best depiction of invisibility. Harry Potter's cloak, Wonder Woman's plane, or the Invisible Man.

Dr. Greg Gbur 17:10

Oh, mmm. That's an interesting question. I would throw out Harry Potter's cloak just because it's magic, Wonder Woman's invisible plane, maybe a good depiction, because I could imagine that, at least all the depictions I've seen have really shown it is just a very transparent craft. That would be very hard to see, which seems plausible. The Invisible Man is sort of an interesting one. Because the, in the original story, the premise is that a person chemically makes themselves completely transparent, and completely invisible, I should say. And that doesn't really seem possible to completely change your chemical composition, and still be alive. But a few years ago, there was some chemists that came out and said, we've made this we have this, we came up with this chemical that will turn a a dead specimen almost completely transparent. And then in a press release, they said, We'd like to try using this and a lesser dose on some living creatures to see if we can get it to work. So I don't know if they've ever succeeded. But people are still trying it. It's it's kind of fascinating how, especially these days, no matter how ridiculous an idea seems, and science fiction, there's probably somebody out there that said, I should give this a try. Maybe this will work.

Nick VinZant 18:46

It's always the thing, like you never know, maybe you actually turns out to be really easy, right? Like, all we had to do is connect the wire. Boom, that's it. That's it. Mmm. Do things really look the way that I think they do? Or is that just our brains interpretation of it?

Dr. Greg Gbur 19:04

It's an interesting question. And I don't have the best answer for it. But it is one at one way I can look at this. Because this is something that personally drives me crazy is you may notice that depending on what sort of camera lens you use, you can look very different in photographs. Because a wide angle camera will give you one look and a narrow angle camera will give you a different look. And, of course, my self conscious self at times looks at certain photos and he goes oh, that's horrible. And then I'm like, I don't look like that. It's like Well, I'm using a wide angle, phone lens really close to my head. So my head looks huge. So to some extent, yeah, perception and our visual system. We can't I would say we can't completely say we look exactly the way we think we look because a lot of it Depends on how our brain interprets stuff. This is sort of a weird question that I asked myself at times is, how do I know that the colors that I'm seeing are the same colors that everyone else is seeing?

Nick VinZant 20:14

But we have a test, right? We have something that could say, No, this is red. Do we do well?

Dr. Greg Gbur 20:23

Well, that's what I mean is that physically, we know what red is, we can talk about it in terms of the wavelengths of light and the combinations of colors. But I'm really thinking about, is that picture in my brain of what red is? Or any other color? Would that agree? If I could magically jump into somebody else's head? Would would our brains interpret that the same way? It's one of those things that like, I like to think about it for about 30 seconds, and then like,

Nick VinZant 20:56

I can, like, it's Wednesday, me, and I can't throw my whole brain for a loop about the nature of reality in my existence. This is just too much for me. Um, this is way above my head. What is quantum noise and coherence theory?

Dr. Greg Gbur 21:13

Let me start with coherence theory, because that's one of my specialties. So what it really comes down to is, when you're looking at a light source, like an ordinary light bulb, you're seeing what looks like a steady stream of light, or you look at the sun or a star, you're seeing a steady stream of light looks pretty constant, you know, barring power outages, or fluctuations of power, or whatever. But really, what you're seeing is a light wave that is fluctuating really, really fast, much, much faster than you can see with your eye. And in fact, much faster than we can detect with, with most detectors. And coherence theory is a subset of optics that is all about asking, How do the random fluctuations of light affect how it behaves? It's an essence. It's really analogous to statistical mechanics or thermodynamics in physics. So statistical mechanics is all about, you have a box that's got that's filled with gas. If you look at that box of gas, you know, on average, it doesn't look like anything's happening in there. But they're all these. They're all these atoms bouncing around, or all these molecules bouncing around. And then the question comes, how does that how does that though? How does all of those motions have all of those different atoms and molecules? risk? What How do all of those combined into the behavior that I'm seeing at a particular time? And coherence theory is basically the optics version of that it's saying, okay, when I look at a light source, I'm actually seeing all the, what I'm really seeing is, is the average of a bunch of random fluctuations of light. And how do I, how do I study the physics of that? How do I relate what I might, how do I relate what I'm seeing to the random fluctuations or the other way around?

Nick VinZant 23:24

Then makes sense to me, right? Like light is actually going like every direction and all the time. But somehow my somehow I piece it together is like, Oh, it's coming from that light bulb? Yeah. Is that kind of

Dr. Greg Gbur 23:37

a little bit? Yeah, you can think of two is that when you're looking at a light bulb, or the sun, you're really looking at the output of a bunch of atoms, a large number of atoms that are all radiating independently. They're all doing their own thing. It's like a bunch of people in a room randomly shouting words out. And when all those people randomly shout out words, on average, you're gonna hear something. And the question then is, what do you hear? What is the AV? What is the average sound made by all of those noisy people?

Nick VinZant 24:15

Let me follow that. Let me follow that up with a brilliant question of best use of lasers in a movie.

Dr. Greg Gbur 24:21

I'm still going with gold finger using a laser beam to slice James Bond and half is still probably my favorite, though I also should give a shout out to the movie real genius because that movie, Val Kilmer way back when it's all about graduate students, basically studying optics and trying to make a really big laser. And it is depressingly accurate. Clearly the writers of that movie knew something about grad school and about lasers and physics.

Nick VinZant 24:54

Like if we, okay, science fiction kind of stuff, if we somehow invent laser blaster Like, what's that? What would that really look like? What movie would you say like, Oh, that's, that might actually be what that would look like.

Dr. Greg Gbur 25:08

So far, I'm not sure any movie is really captured it well. And part of that is, is that lasers can be incredibly dangerous, but their danger comes from dumping a lot of energy in a location at one time. So you know, you can burn a hole through something. But what lasers don't have, which you see it a lot of movies is they don't have a kick to them. Like if somebody gets shot with a gun, the bullet makes an impact and knocks them backwards. And in a lot of movies involving laser blasters, and so forth, you'll see the people get knocked backwards by the blast. But a real laser doesn't do that. Because the the photons, the light particles don't have any mass. So they don't have a lot of kick to them in comparison with a gun. So if you shot someone with a laser gun, you might burn a hole in them, but you wouldn't knock them flying.

Nick VinZant 26:11

So you would just be shot and you'd still just be standing there with a hole in your chest. Yep, but you still be standing in exactly the same place. Pretty much um,

Dr. Greg Gbur 26:20

I should say that light does carry momentum, momentum being that kind of oomph of motion that when one you know billiard ball hits another, it knocks it away, because the one ball transfers the momentum to the other. Light does have momentum, it does have a little bit of a kick to it. But it's a very small amount of kick pretty much negligible on a day to day basis. Which is why when you go out on a hot day, you know you don't open your front door and get blasted back into your house. On a sunny day.

Nick VinZant 26:48

Will we ever be able to travel past the speed of light or get anywhere close to it?

Dr. Greg Gbur 26:53

Everything that we know about physics right now says that we won't get past the speed of light and that that is a fundamental barrier. And everything that we know about Einstein's relativity in the speed of light suggests that it would be pretty close to impossible to get a spacecraft even close to that speed like I once mistakenly put when I was a starting Professor I once mistakenly put as a homework problem for students. I said, Okay, calculate the well like the fraction of the speed of light that the space shuttle went. And it's just this ridiculously tiny number. Our fastest craft have not even gotten close to the speed of light yet. However, again, I can say there's there's, we know, we know a lot about physics in the universe. But there's still plenty of things that we don't really understand things like dark matter and dark energy that make up a ridiculous fraction of the universe that we can't even see. So maybe somebody will figure something out in the future.

Nick VinZant 28:12

Imagine you're going to like meet the your idol. And you've got to wow them with one light fact. What are you going with?

Dr. Greg Gbur 28:21

Okay, I've got a good one. So it takes roughly about two square meters of sunlight, properly focused to melt rock. Wow,

Nick VinZant 28:36

you can even even from here on Earth 93 million miles away. Like it's still

Dr. Greg Gbur 28:44

you know, there's now you can find videos online of these places, I believe they call they're caught. It's called a solar furnace where this is exactly what they have is they've basically designed a big, probably a mirror to concentrate a lot of sunlight into a little spot and they can plop, plop an actual piece and they can plop a piece of metal in there and melt the metal easily and actually just melt stone. And you know, so when you're out sunbathing, you can think about how you know there the sunlight that you're encountering is is pretty intense. Really.

Nick VinZant 29:23

Last question, Where do you what do you think the future holds?

Dr. Greg Gbur 29:28

Well, in my own areas, it seems like the big things that are starting starting to come around is some quantum technology of using quantum physics to do calculations and to do cryptography. So, because because individual atoms the physics of individual atoms is so radically different than what we experience on a day to day scale, there are predictions that we should be able to build computers that are really based on quantum physics that can do things that would, that are traditionally impossible, like solve mathematical problems that would otherwise be impossible to solve or break codes that would be impossible to solve. And there are already commercial devices that claim to use quantum technology for quantum computing. I'm not exactly sure how effective they are not. But that that would be one guest for where your we might see things going is a lot more of a push to adapt quantum physics into our technology.

Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates

Etiquette is more than just being polite. It’s a code of behavior that can take you to the highest levels of personal and professional success. A code Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates (Lady Etiquette) can teach you. We talk proper etiquette, the secret habits of successful people and when it’s time to stop being polite. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Rude Things People Do.

Lady Etiquette Kelley Yates: 01:51ish

Pointless: 24:59ish

Top 5: 39:43ish

https://ladyetiquette.com (Lady Etiquette Website)

https://www.instagram.com/the_lady_etiquette/ (Lady Etiquette Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuDByTAPN9HqG3mlCSq7adg (Lady Etiquette YouTube)

Interview with Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates - Lady Etiquette

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're gonna get a little classy, and then get a little trashy.

Kelley Yates 0:21

I started working for aristocratic families. I was a nanny, I was a real life Mary Poppins, they have success because they have good communication skills. They're able to inspire people with their charm. And that's what etiquettes about. It's almost like magic. And if when we use the code of polite behavior, we are successful. Absolutely. It's a reflection, especially with children, you have to start them off young, because children are a reflection of us.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a coach who has recently seen demand for her services skyrocket. And I think that's because not only have we kind of forgotten how to interact with each other, but also because she's really found that having good etiquette, deportment, being polite good manners, is not just the thing that we should be doing, not just the way that we should treat people. But it's really been found to be the key to both personal and professional success. This is etiquette coach Kelly Yates, known online as Lady etiquette. Do you think that people generally have good etiquette now? Or have we really kind of slacked off?

Kelley Yates 1:57

Oh, gosh, that's a great question. I think it's become a lazier society. And it's much more needed now than ever before. And there's a lot of interacting on social media. So when people see each other, they find it hard to look each other in the eye and have a conversation. It's more in demand now than ever before. In fact, I'm very busy.

Nick VinZant 2:19

Why is that? Like? How come you think that you're kind of services have ramped up?

Kelley Yates 2:24

Well, as the code is trending right now, I'm sure you've noticed on social media. There's a lot of people out there. Now talking about etiquette, which is a wonderful. But it's it's something that's classic, it's timeless, the code of polite behavior would never go out of style.

Nick VinZant 2:43

Why do you think it's important? Like, why did we develop to this?

Kelley Yates 2:47

Well, gosh, could you imagine if we went around in our daily life without saying, Please, and thank you, and just being rude to people? We wouldn't get very far would we? And if when we use the code of polite behavior, we are successful. And that's why people come to Lady etiquette because they want to be successful in their social business life.

Nick VinZant 3:10

Where do people kind of when they when we look at etiquette, like where do people generally mess up?

Kelley Yates 3:16

Um, I think being impatient, not being courteous to people. just rude, rude people, they mess up, they don't take the time to learn, you know, to be polite and considerate of other people's needs.

Nick VinZant 3:33

Do you think that like, Are our people going to have trouble once we finally kind of get out of all of these zoom meetings? And yes, zoom interactions and that kind of stuff? Have we kind of forgotten how to interact with each other?

Kelley Yates 3:48

Yes, I think I think a lot of people have what's never what what is time? This is people. Do you want to have a conversation? And, you know, that gives you confidence and inspires people around you?

Nick VinZant 4:01

Uh, no, I would agree. Right? Like if somebody says, Thank you to me, then I'm generally much nicer to them. Yes, it is. Here's how kind of manners fuel everything right?

Kelley Yates 4:12

Absolutely. It's a reflection. Especially with children, you have to start them off young, because children are a reflection of us. You know, you can start from a toddler, you know, when you you are feeding the toddler, their lunch in the high chair. The toddler is looking at you. They make make eye contact, they smile at you, they giggle and when you feed them, you know, you get them to say please and thank you and that's where it starts. And children watch everything.

Nick VinZant 4:46

Can we go too far though, right where like, everything has to be this kind of I'll use the word I don't mean it but like stuffy, super kind of traditional all kinds of stuff. Like, how did that? How does that kind of traditional fancy way? meld with the modern, more relaxed way? Like, how can we do that?

Kelley Yates 5:10

That's a great question, Nick. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about advocate, as years ago, did was more for high society. And especially if you went to a finishing school, it was where high society attended. But modern etiquette really is for everybody. It's not, I've got all kinds of people come into lady etiquette, for example, I have people from an elderly lady, to a four year old to a tattoo artist. And I think that's wonderful. And that really is what modern etiquette is about. It's for everybody. It's not just for high society, these strong interpersonal skills just give you more confidence to be successful in your life. And that's what it's all about.

Nick VinZant 5:57

How did you get into this?

Kelley Yates 5:59

I guess, it was a gradual process started right from when I was a child, I think I remember being captivated. We were all huddled around the TV, my family, watching Princess Diana's wedding. And I was just enchanted, you know, with all the pomp and protocol. And, of course, it was such a worldwide event, everybody was talking about it. And I think that really planted the seed. And then when I grew up, I started working for aristocratic families. I was a nanny, I was a real life Mary Poppins. And I taught English. And I travelled extensively, I worked in the Middle East, and, you know, saw how important it was to watch, you know how different cultures interact and see the difference, you know, because every country has their own code, polite behavior. Then, when I came to America, I started working in the five star hospitality industry. And that led to VIP hospitality. So I've had very unique opportunities in life, that led to finding lead yet. For the most part, it was watching, observing successful people, you know, interact. And one common thing they all have in common is that they, they understand etiquette. And I believe that without a doubt, that is why they are successful.

Nick VinZant 7:35

Do you think that's the etiquette in and of itself? Or are they successful? Because there's kind of an organization in a system that they have applied to their lives, right, like they do things the way that they should be done? Is it etiquette? Or is it general mindset behind the etiquette that you think has made those people successful?

Kelley Yates 7:56

It's everything, yes. But you cannot be successful in life. If you You are not polite to people. And you have these strong interpersonal skills. If you think of all the world leaders, or the most successful business people, that's one common thing they have. They have they share is they are able to be they they have success, because they have good communication skills. They're able to inspire people with their charm. And that's what etiquettes about. It's almost like magic. You know, it's charm. It's, it's not. It's not like a magic wand, though. It's not the fairy godmother effect, but it is this magic ripple effect. But it takes work and dedication and passion.

Nick VinZant 8:49

Is it difficult to learn the things that people should be doing to have proper etiquette? Or is it difficult? Just to remember to do them to have the patience to kind of do it right. Like is it so I guess it's difficult to learn this skill? Or is it difficult to practice this skill?

Kelley Yates 9:06

No nose at all. It's it's I make it fun. Actually, if you have noticed on my Instagram, I show some reels, what not to do and what to do. And my classes are fun to keep people's attention. And it's not difficult at all You just but you have to practice it. I'm not a believer at all. I don't like that saying fake it till you make it for example. You know, you really have to really be real. And otherwise people will know if you you are being disingenuous.

Nick VinZant 9:39

When people come to you like what we've kind of talked about etiquette in the broad sense, but what are they generally looking for, like, how do I act at dinner? What should I do at a business meeting? Like what are people generally looking for when they come to you?

Kelley Yates 9:55

Well, we we offer a lot of different classes, you know, dining etiquette, childrens etiquette, you name it. But the recent trend it seems to be I get a lot of leaders asking me how to be more feminine. And I do have a poisoned department class that I designed to help women feel more feminine and confident. I teach leaders departments as well, it's adequate. Are you familiar with DEP?

Nick VinZant 10:22

The word I have heard people say it, but I've always been too afraid to ask what it was because I feel like I should have known what DEP is

Kelley Yates 10:32

yes. Well, it's, it's very important. It's your courage, your posture? How do you walk with grace, how you sit, how you carry yourself gracefully? And it and it works hand in hand with etiquette?

Nick VinZant 10:45

Why would now why would so many people be interested in that? Like, what what is it about? But like, obviously, you're talking about, you know, the when somebody kind of walks into a room, why would a lot of women be coming to you for that?

Kelley Yates 10:57

Well, I have noticed as a woman, there's been, you know, the last, this has been coming out for the last 30 years, you know, very extreme feminists pushing back on femininity, and making women less confident in business, you know, thinking that a woman has to be successful in business, if she had cuts her hair short, wears a man suit, when that's not the case, it can actually have a very negative effect on a woman and take her confidence away. What I have observed is that a woman is much more successful in business when she embraces her femininity, which is very empowering. You will see those of the successful women, you know, you don't, I'm not talking about being a bimbo, far from it. And you don't have to be, you know, certainly a man in business, you have to be, you know, smart, feminine. And it's wonderful nowadays, we do have women that, you know, can be a CEO, run for president. But the fact of the matter is a woman still wants to be treated like a lady and women are interested in femininity, because femininity is it's very empowering. And it gives a woman confidence and inspires people around them.

Nick VinZant 12:21

Do you think that now is that? Is that a backlash against kind of the feminism movement? Or is that more just a case of like, Look, over time, we kind of got away from these things?

Kelley Yates 12:31

Well, I guess back in the 1950s, I would have been a traditional, more traditional feminist, you know, but nowadays, it's become quite extreme. But now people are realizing, you know, we still need to be women.

Nick VinZant 12:48

When when a man comes to you, what are men generally looking for?

Kelley Yates 12:53

Well, everything you know, of course, some recently I've had a lot of inquiry about chivalry, I do. Teach chivalry, chivalrous, demeanor, decorum. Dating etiquette, how to act on a date. What to expect. dining etiquette, business etiquette.

Nick VinZant 13:18

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. Go ahead. In what place? Do you generally see people lacking the most etiquette and I'm not talking about like a physical location, but in like an aspect of their lives? Where would you say that people lack the most etiquette

Kelley Yates 13:37

department? Actually, I would say because a lot of people don't know how to carry themselves properly. And there's a lot of people you know, that walk you see them walking, for example, like Charlie Chaplin with the feet out, or they walk with their feet in like a pigeon. You will notice it now. soon as you walk into a supermarket, you're walking through the mall. Just observe people how they walk, I can help people within this area. And it can really change people's lives. because it not only helps you with your health, but your confidence.

Nick VinZant 14:12

What's kind of like big for a man or for a woman what's like your advice for like a quick fix, right? Like, Hey, I walk this way, what's the quick fix for men and women.

Kelley Yates 14:22

Try to walk in a straight line. a straight line, head up your chin parallel to the floor, shoulders back. And just take your time. Don't over swing your arms, like a propeller, or a bird getting ready to take flight. And you try to go the length of your foot with each step.

Nick VinZant 14:47

That seems kind of short for like for I guess when I'm thinking of myself walking. I feel like this kind of short for a man. Is that short for a man?

Kelley Yates 14:57

Well, if you want to pick up your speed That's perfectly fine. But I teach at lages. One one foot length. Okay,

Nick VinZant 15:07

so we talked about places where people have the least and what kind of place and again, not a physical place, but like an aspect where people generally pretty good,

Kelley Yates 15:16

people are getting more cognizant with their dining etiquette. Now, realize the importance of it, especially in business. You know, when people go out on business and they, they want to sit down and relax and get a business deal, and they don't want to be worried about where to put the napkin.

Nick VinZant 15:34

How important in your business of etiquette is being British? Because I feel I will feel like I would listen to somebody who is American a lot less. But since you're British, I feel like that's extra. Like, oh, oh, yeah. Does that help? Being British?

Kelley Yates 15:53

Yes, I'm not going to lie. It does help. They love the British accent. It's very popular in America. And it's a compliment. And, incidentally, I think this is what people are lacking nowadays, is giving a good compliment. And a lot of people don't know how to give a compliment. They actually compliment. For example, I often have people leaving comments on my Instagram. Oh, that's a beautiful dress. Or I love your hand back. But Doesn't it sound a lot nicer when you say? Oh, you look You look beautiful in that dress. You know if you're if you're wearing a nice suit. Oh, I love your suit neck. Doesn't this sound much better? Nick, you're looking very dapper today. I must say

Nick VinZant 16:47

it dies. Yeah. Cuz you're complimenting the person rather than the thing.

Kelley Yates 16:52

Exactly. They are complimenting that the object and not the purse. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 16:58

I can see why. Because you're basically saying like, as opposed to, Hey, your clothing that you have on is nice. You're saying you as a person made a good choice? Yes. And it makes people feel more special. What is your biggest pet peeve when you see when you see people doing things like what just drives you nuts? Like, oh, you can't do that.

Kelley Yates 17:23

I see a lot of people holding their wine glass the wrong way. Doesn't really drive me nuts. But it's very common. You see it all the time in the movies, for example. And I think when I watch people in the media, politicians, public speaking, I do see something that really annoys me. They're over gesturing their hands like this. They're very, very flamboyant. And it's so it's like, you know, the Italians, which is part of their culture. It's great for the Italians. But here, no, it's just over the top. You know, and that annoys me, especially when I'm watching people, you know, making public speaking you know, there's they are, you know, they could be so much more professional, if they just use their gestures, when they really want to emphasize something. And not constantly, like an over zelia salesperson that you see on a, you know, a bad TV commercial.

Nick VinZant 18:34

What is some bad etiquette that you do that you are trying to correct? Like, you know, you're not supposed to Lady etiquette, but you do it? Yes. You do.

Kelley Yates 18:48

What, gosh, you know, that's wonderful question. I don't want to tell you really, because nobody will come to me from business. No, no, seriously, no, I'm not perfect. You know, etiquette, it's a bit like yoga. You have to practice it every day and be real. Not disingenuous, because people will pick up on it. Especially children, they notice everything. But let's say what annoys me about myself. Sometimes I get very excited. And I can talk too much when I'm excited. I guess that's what it is. I can't talk until the cows come home

Nick VinZant 19:41

the one you know like I think you and I are in pretty good agreement about like the need for etiquette The one thing that I would wonder about though is like can you be can you become so proper, so prim and proper, that you kind of lose your personality?

Kelley Yates 19:57

Yes, well, I'm I'm still myself. I haven't, you know, a naughty side to me, but the etiquette keeps me balanced. It's not about being stiff at all. That's the biggest misconception with etiquette. It's about being confident and inspiring those around you to just be more kind, respectful, courteous, and graceful. It doesn't matter where you go in life, you know, etiquette is needed. And it's everywhere. It's you're surrounded with. If you look, the checkout clock in the grocery store, for example, you know, don't be so focused on your groceries when you're going through. Look up. Look, look at the grocery at the checkout clerk. Thank him or her?

Nick VinZant 20:46

What is the biggest controversy in etiquette? Like you and your etiquette colleagues? Like what are you guys? What's the big controversy? In etiquette? Is there a controversy? Like, oh, you should do this? No, no, I think you should do this.

Kelley Yates 21:03

Just the misconception that it's only for a certain class of people. etiquette is classless it's for everybody. controvert controversy? Oh, I guess you could say that, you know, there's certain mindset that believe that etiquette is you always have to be nice, perfect. You know, you you know, it doesn't mean that if somebody is bullying you, for example, you know, you don't have to be nice. Now, of course, you don't bully them back. But you don't you know, ethic, it's not about being a doormat. And etiquette gives you confidence to stand up for yourself. In any given situation.

Nick VinZant 21:55

That kind of fee feeds into our next question. Best way to politely tell someone to eff off. Oh, yes, I love that one. Are you you're saying it nicely, but they know what you're really saying? Like, what's the best way to tell somebody that

Kelley Yates 22:15

but it depends on what they're, they're they're doing as well. You know, to annoy you. Um, you know, it's there. For example, if there you have to, we have to have an example here, don't wait. Because there's so many scenarios. If somebody is making fun of the way you look, in more ways than one, then I would say to Shay, you know, I would look at them, perhaps and say you might want to take a look in the mirror before you judge other people. And work away.

Nick VinZant 22:53

Good burn. It's good one.

Kelley Yates 22:56

Walk away, you know, we have a saying in England is while you are beneath contempt,

Nick VinZant 23:02

at what point in an email chain? Do I no longer have to use the person's name? Like Do I have to say, Hi, Kelly. Hi, Kelly. Hi, kill every single email, or what point can I drop off? Is this question?

Kelley Yates 23:15

Yes, yes. You don't need to. It's always nice to use the person's name. But after the, you know, the third email, you know, it's a reply. So you don't need to use the name. You're just having a conversation.

Nick VinZant 23:29

Another another one that came in. If a meeting starts right out if a meeting starts, let's let's use this one. We you and I recorded this at 10 o'clock. Should I be right at 10 o'clock? Or should I actually be a little bit early or a little bit late?

Kelley Yates 23:46

I would say minimum five minutes before for a zoom meeting. I myself like to be there 10 to 15 minutes. That's what I recommend. But minimum five minutes before

Nick VinZant 23:59

that. That's really all the questions that I have. What's kind of coming up next for you. Where can people reach you? I know you offer classes.

Kelley Yates 24:06

Yes, we have online classes, children's classes, poisoned deportment for leaders. And I have an afternoon tea class which is online. We have video coaching. I'm very busy with video coaching. And I can be reached at the lady etiquette on Instagram. Or I'm on YouTube at lady etiquette. I did want lady etiquette I confess for Instagram but it was already taken.

Olympic Race Walker Robyn Stevens

Forget what you’ve seen on TV because Race Walking is nothing like what it seems. Robyn Stevens is a 14x National Champion who just got back from the Tokyo Olympics. We talk Race Walking, the secret to swinging your hips and getting annoyed at slow walkers. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Ways to Get Around.

Robyn Stevens: 01:47ish

Pointless: 28:36ish

Top 5: 52:13ish

www.WalknRobyn.com (Robyn Stevens Website)

www.instagram.com/robyndesign (Robyn Stevens Instagram)

www.facebook.com/dreamngold (Robyn Stevens Facebook)

Interview with Olympic Race Walker Robyn Stevens

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, fast walking, and slow moving,

Robyn Stevens 0:21

I got there a few days after the opening, we had to miss the opening ceremonies. But I watched them from home which with my mom, which is really special because I used to watch all the Olympics growing up with her, our body are using all of the muscles, we're engaging all of the muscles but a sprinter, a middle distance runner and a distance runner are utilizing but all at the same time. And then our turnover is as quick as it bout of like between a 408 100 meter runner, I'm totally walk pretty fast. I know I get really annoyed when I'm in the shopping, you know, the grocery store and like, Oh, yeah, I can't. It's a big pet peeve.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't think I've ever had my preconceived notions about something shattered more than by our first guest. Because whatever you think about race walking, speed walking, it is not, not what I thought it was. It is so much more interesting, and so much more physically demanding than I ever would have thought just by watching it on TV. Our first guest is a national champion and Olympian who just got back from Tokyo. This is race Walker, Robyn Stevens. So you're just back from the Olympics. How was it?

Robyn Stevens 1:50

It was great, obviously different from most years. But since it's my first Olympics, I didn't know any different. I think we're the only event that could have spectators just because we were outdoor and there's a lot of space. So it was really cool seeing all the locals come out and hearing them cheer and it's a good experience.

Nick VinZant 2:11

When did you arrive to the opening ceremonies were on Friday, like when did you get there?

Robyn Stevens 2:15

I got there a few days after the opening, so we had to miss the opening ceremonies. But I watched them from home, which with my mom, which is really special because I used to watch all the Olympics growing up with her. So it was kind of cool to see an opening ceremony that I'm supposed to be walking in for the Olympics I made but with my mom's I could see her crying and all excited. So that was that was like a different type of special.

Nick VinZant 2:42

One of the things that kind of jumped out at me and if Wikipedia and online is correct, that you were a little bit older for most than most first time Olympians is is racewalking a sport that kind of is conducive to that.

Robyn Stevens 2:56

Yeah, so racewalking we don't usually hit our peak until late mid 30s to early 40s. Yeah, and, um, I don't know I. So I took a few years off from the sport I retired in 2004 came back in 2000, officially 2016. And what encouraged me to come back was I had learned that one of the Olympians that I had watched, I didn't realize she had made her Olympic debut at 42. So when I learned that that inspired me to come back because I was thinking, Oh, yeah, it's too late. Because I was also before I retired, I was a runner and a race Walker and nationally ranked, but in both so I was in that runner mindset of Oh, okay. Yeah, like, it's, it's obviously too late. And then when I learned what her age was, it encouraged me like, okay, you know, we'll see what we'll see. We'll explore. But in in race walk, it's pretty common. I mean, for Spain, there's a his use Garcia, who has made every World Championships and Olympics since he was a youth. And he was 52, I believe, at the Olympics this year.

Nick VinZant 4:07

What is it about it that people can continue to do that so much later in life, athletically speaking,

Robyn Stevens 4:13

I think there's a couple things a lot of people, at least in America haven't heard of it. It's not it's more prevalent in southern America, in Europe and in, in all over China and Japan, it's super popular. But I think it's also because it's low impact. And so the body can handle a lot more and recover faster. Because our Olympic distances up until this year was 20k and 50k remain. So the 50k had two options, the 50 and the 20. The 50 is longer than the marathon. And then the women have the 20k. So we have a lot of we're doing a lot of distance, and we're probably doing that every other month. Sometimes depending if we're really active with the World Challenge events, then we're going to be Doing that often now, you'll see like, I've read a lot in magazines where they're like, Oh, you know, I can't believe this marathoner is going to do you know, two, two marathons back to back a month apart? And I think it's because yeah, they're they're absorbing so much power. Yeah, on their knees and their joints and everything where it's not unheard of, for us to be able to do that just because we can. We're putting our heartbreak. It's just as high as a runner. We're doing its justice, like, we're asking a lot of our body, but because of the low impact, or able to bounce back a lot quicker.

Nick VinZant 5:31

So the demand is the same, but the toll is not correct. Yeah, that's well, that's really interesting. So how did you get into race walking,

Robyn Stevens 5:41

I started in junior high, I had ran across country racing Dixon, and had a beat a little boy that in the race, that youth coach had wanted to humble. And so she came over and she was a club coach, and I had only Ranbir, junior high, you know, for the school system, I never heard of club track and field. And she came over and she was just like, Hey, you know, I run a club team. I'd love for you to join. If you stick with me, I believe that you have enough talent that you could make an Olympic team and even get into any college that you could ever dream of. And that was enough for me because I'd always wanted to go to college, and I'm the youngest in my family. So I was doing everything to keep you know, the way that a student and yeah, volunteer for clubs, and I would do everything to cover my bases in case they didn't have enough money left over for me, though, my mom's like, I would have always made sure. But you know, just in case, just in case, right, yeah. Yeah. So when she said that, I was like, oh, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'll join. And since it's a club team, they, they purchase, all those events, you know, are going to have all of the events that are in the Olympics. So she would teach all of her athletes, every single event that's in the Olympics, so all of us learned throwing all of us learn race walk, all of us learn, you know, the only two that she couldn't teach us was hammer thrown pole vault, because there was no access to the the items on steeplechase because there was no staples. But we all learned race walk. And that's how I learned about it. And she would i would do the the mile the 800 the four by four and the race walk, but there was so much time between that 800 in the mile and the beginning of the race and of track needs cousin youth track take? Yeah. Yeah, that I would get really bored. And so that my muscles when get, you know, lazy or the two mile or get stagnant, she would have me jump in the race walk so that it could keep me limber, and, you know, flexible, two mile and not getting too bored.

Nick VinZant 7:46

No, like, why are you a good race Walker,

Robyn Stevens 7:48

I think I just picked up on it from all the years of dance that I had done. I started dance class when I was two. And when she discovered me, um, I wasn't competitive dancer, I was doing, you know, competing in the area in the local area. And I think just with all of that just years of, of dance, I was able to take to it, it was nothing. It didn't feel any different from you know, like, a lot of people are like, Oh, don't you want to run or? Or, you know, how do you race walk like that doesn't make you want to just break into a run? I'm like, no, it just it feels like a like an athletic endurance dance. So it just feels it definitely I don't get it confused with running.

Nick VinZant 8:31

It's it's one of those things that now that you mentioned it like there is some swiveling of the hips there, right?

Robyn Stevens 8:36

Yeah, yeah. So like a former coach of mine, Susan Armenta, she used to say, at a madang game, but if I didn't have enough hip flexor, to remind me just to relax into the hips,

Nick VinZant 8:47

is it just walking fast, like if I was in a hurry, and I want to walk fast, it's the same way that I would walk faster, is there a whole different kind of technique to it?

Robyn Stevens 8:56

Oh, there's a whole technique to it. So usually, if we're going to teach youth how to or beginners will say like, just pretend that you're at the pool. And they say, you know, the snow cone place just opened up and everybody's jumping out there, like don't run, you know, walk, don't run, and you're trying to hurry over to it. So that's how you start, you know, walk as fast as you can to get there. But to not get thrown out of a race. There's two rules, you have to land with a straight leg, and then keep it straight until it passes underneath the hip. And then but one foot has to be on the ground at all times. And that's how it different sheets from running obviously. So you can get sometimes confused because when you say that people will start walking like a Frankenstein. And, um, but that's where I like to just incorporate the dance if you're thinking of them, but I am gay. You land at the straight leg, drop that hip, let it pass as you're pulling that back, you know, your other leg through and then you can bend that last one as you're straightening the other one and then that's how you get that that smoother ride. them,

Nick VinZant 10:00

it seems like a sport that would be easy for somebody to cheat.

Robyn Stevens 10:04

No. So we have minimum five judges on a course at all times, unlike the distance running, we have to be on. So for 20 Ks, it's going to be a 1k course. And for the 50k 35k can either be a 1k or 2k course. So that way that there's always a judge that can see us and there's five to seven judges at all times, they have to have certification, the proper rolled athletic certification, at least three of them have to be like a level three, and an A world athletic certified. And then there has to be by that. So for the one foot off the ground, there has to be by the judges I and there's like a fourth of a second that the human eye can't see. So if you see if you slow down videos of professional racewalkers, if you've like, watched the Olympics, and you slow it down, and you see a side profile profile of us, or if you see pictures, you might see like, oh, they're cheating there, I see them, they're just a little bit off and right, not by the judge. So that's the key is like by the judges, I because they're not going to be able to see that seconds. Now we're not doing that on purpose that just happens naturally at the speeds that we're going and it's just going to go up so you can there's ways to get these, it's just like soccer, or you can get dq except for in soccer, you have to be misbehaving. And, you know, pissed off the referee, and re swacch we're not talking necessarily but we can, you know, the the judge has two paddles, they can give us the yellow is a warning, that is a courtesy, they don't have to give us that. That's just to let us know, we're we're in danger of getting red carded, and if we don't fix it, they're gonna read cardus on each judge can only give an athlete one red card. And that's how they they keep from over bias because you know, they like another athlete. And then three red cards, if they're not using a penalty zone, will dq the athlete, if they're using the penalty zone, like at the Olympics this year, some people may have noticed, you know, we had a strong pack of the top six. And then all of a sudden, there's this heat, like all this drama at the end of the race, where the person who was supposed to be in third, she already had two red cards. And she but she really wanted that second place. So she pushed it and she got pit lanes. So the pit lane, they don't always have to use but they had decided to use that for and this is going to become more normal for the Olympics. And that's where she's put in a pit penalty box for two minutes. So virtually two minutes gets added to her time as you sitting there and that that pit box. So she ended up 11th. So she was a favorite to you. She's from Brazil, she's actually a friend of mine. She was a favorite to metal. And then because she really wanted that. So for her, you got to appreciate that grit. She just pushed it a little too much and then got pit lanes. And then same with the gold medal favorite. She got she had red, two red cards going in got pit lane, and then she ended up third was supposed are supposed to be second. but ended up third she was the gold medal favorite. And so like there's so those rules make it so it's hard to tea because there's people watching us all the time. And the last 100 meters you can get dq whether or not you have previous red cards. So that's why you're not gonna see too many of us. Like this is one of the things I love to doing when I was running competitively is I love strong kick. So I still like to do that with race walk. But I have to be really careful because judges, if you if you switch if you significantly change your pace, and because if you change your pace, your technique might change a little bit too. And they don't like that. That's what I like about it. Because it's a it's such a technical strategy type sport, too, you have to have strategy, and you can't all you sometimes have to sacrifice. Even if you have a lot in the tank physically, you have to sacrifice that or sacrifice a higher place just to stay in the race. Because it could mean if you sprint at the end, it could mean that that chief judge doesn't like how you look. And they'll just throw you out that last time your leader.

Nick VinZant 14:20

Oh, yeah. So you could be like, technically perfect, exactly how you're doing it for the entire time. And then if you're in a tight race at the end, and you just speed up a little he can just go euro. Wow. So you really got to like maintain your whole speed. That's kind of

Robyn Stevens 14:39

like I'm doing a constant body scan the entire time. There's no checking out mentally,

Nick VinZant 14:44

you know, you're talking about it with these people who are the best in the world and they're still getting red cards during these races. Is it one of those kinds of things where people are gonna push it and see how much they can push it. Like you want to be right say that there's a line and you Want to be right up against that line without crossing it? Right? Because it would seem like if you perfected a technique, then you wouldn't ever be in jeopardy of getting fined for it or getting penalized for it. But then because people are getting penalized for it all the time, they must be like pushing right up against that all the time. Oh, is that how it works?

Robyn Stevens 15:18

Yeah, we're pushing the last part of our training is just figuring out where we can, how much and what that feels like to push that line and know that we're, we're technically sound and most of us at that level where we are technically sound, but, you know, judges are human and, and different judges have their preference on what they like, and what they consider good technique there, you know, so, you know, we might be fine in one country, but then another country's judges, like they interpret the rules a little bit differently. It's really not that like, if you're going those speeds, you're, you're probably going to get carbs, because you we are going super fast. I mean, we're going sub seven, the women are going sub 715 per mile pace, the men are going sub seven minute pace, you know about 650. So we're we are going fast. So one of the things that will push for is how you know, it's almost like you've aced it, if you can walk, you know, the two cards is almost like a badge of it's not a badge of honor. But it's like, it's like you know, you you know you're pushing yourself. Because if you're not getting any cards, maybe you know, it's almost like Well, are you pushing yourself enough?

Nick VinZant 16:32

It's that old saying like, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Robyn Stevens 16:37

Because we're not cheating on purpose. Like the cards are all pushing it a little bit.

Nick VinZant 16:41

Yeah, yeah, you're bumping up against that edge. Now

Robyn Stevens 16:44

that these they're trying to figure out for myself, because I crossed the finish line was so much energy still left in the tank? Because I'm trying I'm still trying to figure out what it feels like to push that edge with the energy that I have. So

Nick VinZant 16:59

no is can I ask how, um, how tall are you? I'm just under five, three. So is that is that an ideal height? For a race? Walker is like something Oh, you'd be you would be the best in the world. If you were only five, four, like you're too tall for a race Walker? Is there? Is there a certain body type for it?

Robyn Stevens 17:17

I'm not really I think the shorter tend to do better, just because the taller athletes are gonna stick out more. So if they're particularly bouncing in their spec, they're gonna stand out to the judge because they're towering over the shorter. But if you're technically sound, that's no big deal. So

Nick VinZant 17:35

it's kind of like a being smaller as a blendin advantage as opposed to like a bio.

Robyn Stevens 17:39

Yeah, because we can have a quicker turnover. So I guess, because our fastest walkers in the world are for the minister Japanese, for the women, it's the Chinese. And then South America has a lot of strong walkers. Spain has a really strong program. And a lot of a lot of that is like we're shorter. You know, like, those cultures are shorter in height, or like my height. So you know, between my height and maybe 554455. So are the women. Um, so I think it does help. I mean, there are successful tall athletes though,

Nick VinZant 18:20

right? It's harder, it's like, not this quite the same, but it's like gymnastics where it's definitely beneficial to be a certain size, right? kind of thing. So

Robyn Stevens 18:29

yeah, I mean, I am someone who believes that if you have a will and you have a passion for you know, being good at a certain discipline, it doesn't matter what you look like you're gonna be you're gonna be able to pull it off.

Nick VinZant 18:42

Are you heart ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions, sir. Do racewalkers trash talk each other?

Robyn Stevens 18:51

Oh, probably more on the men's side. I believe the women are more. We just focus on what we need to do. So we're either going to be friends or we were just in our own little we just kind of keep to ourself on race day. But the men definitely like to have like playful, playful banter with each other and,

Nick VinZant 19:09

um, can you spot a good Walker out in public? like can you see somebody like rush rushing to catch a bus? That goo they got good form?

Robyn Stevens 19:17

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's how a lot of us racewalkers who ended up in the sport got, you know, headhunted is you know, a coach sauce or someone saw that, oh, you would make a great race Walker. I see it all the time, when when we're training out on you know, on the trails, and the bike trails. Sometimes kids or other people will try to try to mimic it or try to, you know, go along with us. And there are times where I'm like, wow, actually, that's really good.

Nick VinZant 19:43

You should do a pretty good

Robyn Stevens 19:45

you're doing pretty well. And I had worked with some some other people who were just wanting to learn it, but uh, probably weren't, wasn't like thinking anything about it like seriously, and then I saw them like, wow, you know, If you weren't so successful at what you're doing, you know, if you weren't such a successful actress, you'd probably be in pretty good or a soccer but you're making way more money as an actress than what we make.

Nick VinZant 20:11

Can you make a living straight off of racewalking?

Robyn Stevens 20:14

You can a very humble living. I'm very, very humble. So like, the average that we might make is, at most, and on average, the most that we might make is 25k. really couldn't live in Silicon Valley on it. But it would be like really living like a conservative way. Like we're making like 2025 to maybe 50k with the bonuses during Olympic year. So like with a, you know, with that, but it's all in it's not salary, we don't get salary. So it's all based on winning, what would be your top speed? Like you're going to sprint? All out? Like how fast can you How fast can you walk? Ah, we don't normally race anything faster than a mile. And once we hit the elite level, it's not often we're going to be doing anything less than that. 3k like two miles. But there is like, once a year, there's the Melrose games, where we'll do a mile and so that's the only thing I can judge off of the fastest that a male is gone is a 531. And the fastest a woman is gone is 618.

Nick VinZant 21:29

That's like 10 or 11 miles an hour. And if I'm going trail walking or something like that, like I'm hauling ass at three miles an hour. That's incredibly you know, pretty quick.

Robyn Stevens 21:41

So what's interesting for a lot of like, when, so our body are using all of the muscles were engaging all of the muscles, but a sprinter, a middle distance runner and a distance runner are utilizing but all at the same time. And then our turnover is as quick as it bout of like between a 408 100 meter runner.

Nick VinZant 22:03

Wow.

Robyn Stevens 22:05

So actually orders race walk really well. A lot of sprinters like take to it quickly.

Nick VinZant 22:12

Just because of the turnover ratio. Yeah. I was really thinking that it was gonna be like five miles an hour, which would be a 12 minute mile, but it's basically double that you're talking like 1112 miles an hour walking?

Robyn Stevens 22:24

Yeah, cuz, you know, during the 20k, I averaged about 715 per mile.

Nick VinZant 22:30

Wow. Yeah. So that's like seven and a half miles an hour. Do you? Okay, next question. Do you generally walk fast everywhere you go.

Robyn Stevens 22:39

I'm told I do. I never really noticed. But my, you know, I'm short. So my dad always seemed super tall to me, because he's six one. And so when we would go camping, and hiking, we do a lot of camping and hiking. Growing up. I was always constantly trying to keep up with them. Because I talk a lot. And I'm trying to, you know, tell them my story that I couldn't keep up with them. So my best friend Ashley, she always just likes to she'll laugh about it because people always she's shorter than me. And people are always like, why do you walk so fast? And he's like, Well, my best friend is a professional race Walker. And I always have to try to keep up with her in the hallways in high school. So I think the key is like if you're around someone taller than you, I think you're just going to naturally be a faster Walker everywhere because you're just trying to keep up with the taller walkers. So I'm told I walk pretty fast. I know I get really annoyed when I'm in the shopping. You know, the grocery

Nick VinZant 23:39

store? Oh, yeah, I can't. It's a big pet peeve. Oh my god, that would be awful. If you were like walking in a crowd like, Oh my god,

Robyn Stevens 23:49

I can't stand proud. If they can't walk fast. You know, I don't like the the idle, especially the packs that walk in like groups of five or Oh, yeah, they're all on their phones. And they're just walking super slow. It's like can you walk single file or learn how to walk faster?

Nick VinZant 24:05

We asked the same question to both a decathlete and some ping pong Olympians that we had on. Where do you feel like racewalking ranks in the Olympic hierarchy hierarchy of sports? Like in my mind, you're going to have 100 meter sprint like that's, that's the Olympic sport, right? That is the thing. And then at the bottom, you're going to have archery or something. Right? Like where do you feel like so you're talking about all the events? Not Where do you think that like race walking, but in terms of like the coolness factor, like if this was a Olympic high school? Where do the race walkers rank?

Robyn Stevens 24:44

In my mind, or where do they actually rank because that's pretty low in in most people Unless Unless you're from Japan, or from Spain or from parts of you know, South America or from Russia. You know? racewalking is ranked pretty low. But I think it's because. But a lot of people, most people don't understand what's going on. And once you understand what's going on, it's really fascinating. And it's really interesting. And that's why I've gained a new appreciation for baseball because I used to think baseball was super boring. And I'm like, how can people think race walks boring when people watch like four hours of this just people standing around on a field, I also think that with race walk at the elite level, I mean, since we're using all the muscles of like a sprinter, middle distance, and distance, and distance runner, our build is going to be similar to a dancer or no, I used to get mistaken for a gymnast when I was younger. And I just think that like the musculature is just really aesthetically beautiful. And when you see when you see it done, right, it's gorgeous. Just seeing what the body can do when it's finally trained.

Nick VinZant 26:01

So that's pretty much all the questions that I have what's kind of coming up next for you.

Robyn Stevens 26:06

So next, we have a possibly depends on the Delta variant like, Yeah, what happens with that, we have a 10k, in quotes equality in Mexico. And we were supposed to do one in Monterey that got cancelled because of the COVID. And then, after that, and November, we have the men's national 35k, because the women already had ours in February or January, February. Normally, in January, we had to postpone it to February. So we have the men's 35k that mix getting used to or getting ready for. And at that race, they'll either have another 35k just to open one for the women to qualify for worlds, or a 20k just for for us to do for points because now everything's about either the super a standard or qualifying for by ranking. So you have to hit a certain time for quality ranking position in the world. So So that'll be in November that we're planning for the second week of November in San Diego area. And then January will be the men's and women's 35k nationals for 2022. Wow.

Nick VinZant 27:21

So that's what's next. I missed this one who is the Michael Jordan of racewalking. Michael Jordan of race walk. Like who's better? Who's the best? The best ever?

Robyn Stevens 27:34

In my eyes, it's gonna be his Seuss Garcia of Spain. Because, like he is the true goat of race walk, because in my eyes, because I mean, some people would argue that is Jefferson Perez. Some people might argue that, you know, it's somebody more current, but I think that will his use Garcia is correct. I mean, he was at the Olympics at 52. He's made every Olympic team in every world seen. He's been in the top like, I think his first one was in 1990. It was a couple years after Nick was born in 1990 No, I think it was 1991 or whatever. But I mean, he's been doing that ever since. And he's always in the top 30 like now because he's in the top 30 now, but back then it was like the top eight.

Adult Film Star Lexi LunaLexi

Lexi Luna is a teacher. First she taught in schools, now she teaches on-camera. Educating men about sex and women about empowerment. Go behind the scenes as we talk adult films, OnlyFans and the secrets of pornography algorithms. Then, try not to get “caught” as we countdown and new Top 5.

Lexi Luna: 01:53ish

Pointless: 40:54ish

Top 5: 56:44ish

www.iwantlexi.com   (Lexi Luna Website)

https://onlyfans.com/lexilunaxoxo (Lexi Luna OnlyFans)

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Interview with Adult Film Star Lexi Luna

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, adult films, only fans and times you don't want to get caught.

Lexi Luna 0:22

And then once I started transitioning more into mainstream porn, my fans were very excited because they're like I really loved your feet but I really likes you to get back to. Now the reason that there is so much taboo in porn is because that is what people are searching. We are making porn specifically based on the Google searches the Pornhub searches searches by gender searches by age group searches by everything, it seems as though we are going towards more censorship 100% of the time, but sex workers prevail, and we are used to being censored and finding away Because ultimately, the product we have is so good that it won't ever go away. You can never censor it to the point where it's gone.

Nick VinZant 1:09

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a teacher. She used to be an elementary school teacher. But now she educates people in a different way. Teaching men about sex, and women about empowerment. This is adult films, and only fan star Lexi Luna, two quick notes. One, I kind of messed up my portion of the audio just a little bit. And two, only fans recently had some big news that I felt like we had to talk about first. And then we'll get into the rest of the interview, which is just absolutely fascinating. Normally, we wouldn't necessarily start this way. But I think with some news that came down yesterday, we kind of have to when you look at what only fat only fancies decided to do, what's your reaction to that?

Lexi Luna 2:03

Honestly, it's kind of a shelter in place reaction, because we don't actually know what's going on. And there hasn't been all that much, you know, told to us by only fans, there's not been an email sent out to creators, there's only been this article. So we don't really know anything. So I'm just kind of continuing business as normal. And making sure that my email list is strong, and my fans know how to reach me in case something happens. But right now, it's a lot of speculation. And I really don't want to, like feed into that any more than we need to. Because, you know, there are a lot of creators who will who stand to lose a lot. And without knowing what the official word is. fear mongering isn't gonna get us very far.

Nick VinZant 2:48

Quick little follow up on that side. Like, I guess thing that for me kind of looking at it from the outside is I don't get it. Yeah. Like, it seems like this is McDonald's ban banning hamburgers in some way. I mean, I don't think you are overly dramatic, but like, why what's what would be the reason in your mind.

Lexi Luna 3:07

So the reason this is happening is because MasterCard is pushing them. The payment processing for adult, anything is tricky. And that's really what it comes down to is the these, you know, evangelical groups, shall we call them are pressuring MasterCard to do this and to get rid of what they assume is something immoral and illegal, which it's not. Either of those things is just, you know, people have different paths. And you would think that such Christian people would be able to understand that not everybody does the same thing. And not everybody's interested in the same things. And that that's okay. And then we should embrace people anyway. But it seems like you know, in the adult industry, in the porn world, we are a lot more accepting of people, whether they're the same as us are different from us, then a lot of these groups are and you know, their entire mission is to get rid of internet porn, which is futile, it's never gonna happen. We're not going anywhere, we're just gonna build another platform somewhere else and people will come to us. So really what this comes down to is payment processing and MasterCard being told to figure it out because there are a lot of instances of things that shouldn't be happening on these sites as well. But that's not what the majority of this is.

Nick VinZant 4:21

Looking way down the road because we haven't quite scheduled like when this episode is going to come out. But is this such a thing? like okay, only fans shuts down? We just move here. Is this really going to be a long is this really going to be that big of a thing moving forward?

Lexi Luna 4:37

Um, yes. And no, I mean, you know, a lot of a lot of companies are kind of looking at this like, Okay, well, what what is the next move? Where is the industry going? And there are so many of these companies now, you know, only fans really blew up, especially during quarantine when people were lonely and didn't have, you know, anything else to do and the government was supplying a lot of extra money to people to be able to live and the first thing people are gonna spend money on is the thing To make them feel good, and that's porn, you know, because we're all in survival mode. So we were all trying to comfort ourselves in some way. And a lot of people found comfort talking to us. And you know, getting a little bit more of like a social piece on that. But you know, looking down the road, who knows, I don't know which platform I'm going to just yet, you know, I'm weighing my options, I know that my fans will follow me just about anywhere I take them. But I know that's not true for a lot of performers, especially people who are pretty new to the industry, you know, this is my sixth year in adult. And I just have a different perspective, I have a different fan base. And I know that I'm secure. But I don't know what payment processing is going to look like, if if this is a precedent that MasterCard has set, how many more sites will get hit with, I don't want to process your payment anymore. And if people can't use their credit cards, they're certainly not going to, you know, participate in, in a different way. I mean, they're talking about age verification, uploading IDs for the users, and for the performers. And I just don't see a lot of people, consumers wanting to put their identification picture of them holding their identification into a system like that, not for porn.

Nick VinZant 6:09

Yeah, I don't really like, Look, I am a American male and have all this general proclivities that an American male has, but I'm, I'm not going on to Pornhub with a picture of me holding my ID, that's

Lexi Luna 6:23

not gonna happen. Like, it's crazy. And you know, but if MasterCard says, This is what you have to do, nobody's gonna do it. So it just naturally dissolves. So then they don't seem like the bad people, even though they absolutely are.

Nick VinZant 6:34

You mentioned that you got started six years ago, how did that come about? Like what made you get into the industry,

Lexi Luna 6:39

I was really tired of what I was doing in the education world, I taught kindergarten through fourth grade for five years prior to my parlay into the adult world. And you know, I taught over two different school, or two different states, I taught so low socioeconomic, high socioeconomic, I taught charter schools, I taught in public schools, I tried a little bit of everything in five years. And ultimately, after five years of experience, I was making $35,000 a year, which is barely enough to live. So I kind of just got fed up with the whole, the harder you work, the less money you make in education mantra, and I had been dabbling in the fetish world a little bit here and there. And I've gotten with a really great group of people who taught me a lot. And I learned a lot about how to do different fetish acts like impact play, I learned about different fetishes. And that's kind of how I got into this, like, mindset of this is really cool. And this is a part of myself, I would have never discovered had I not, you know, gone to this club and met these people. And then it became more of like, a, okay, well, on Fridays, I have classes and maybe I'd be interested in going to see one of those classes to see because, you know, I'm an educator, and I love to learn and, you know, let's, let's see what, what's behind this a little bit more. So it just kind of naturally led me to be on a website called fetlife. And I got approached there for some did recruiter and they told me, you know, the whole Oh, you can make so much money, which like I see through that I'm 26 at the time. So this is not like you can't romance me with the numbers because I actually am thinking logically about what this could potentially be. It felt very credible. And I felt like, Okay, this is a real industry. This isn't just somebody trying to, like, get a mass group of people to do a scam or something like that. And this was in April that I got approached, and I was like, school's over in May, like I could do this over the summer. And then if it doesn't work out, I could just start again, teaching and it doesn't work, right, looking back. Like that's just not how it's gonna work, right? Um, so I was like, whatever, I was the most junior teacher, my contract didn't get renewed for the next year because I was very expendable to them. And it kind of left me with this, like, Okay, this is it. This is like, every path is cleared for me to do this. I don't have a job next year. And I really am not upset about it. And so I was like, fuck it. I'll take I'll take the leap, you know, big risk, big reward. And I did my first deed June 3, and I never looked back

Nick VinZant 9:10

was was the first scene what she thought it would be like,

Lexi Luna 9:13

nothing at all. Like what do I thought it would be like, first of all, it was for a company that is very heavy BDSM but like the females are in charge, like it's very femme Dom oriented. And it was like strap on play. It was beating a slave and a latex dress like it was a lot. But it wasn't new to me because again, my experience in the kink world and learning all these things made it possible for me to even be able to do that safely with somebody else.

Nick VinZant 9:39

When would you say that you kind of went mainstream.

Lexi Luna 9:42

I'm not too long after that. I did focus more on the fetish side of things for a little while because it's kind of where I was comfortable. I was familiar with foot fetish. I was familiar with domination. I was familiar with all these different pieces. And a lot of people who were brand new to the industry aren't necessarily that familiar with it. They just kind of do what the director says. But that's kind of where I started showing my personality and kind of capturing my fans. And then once I started transitioning more into mainstream porn, my fans were very excited because they're like, I really loved your feet. But I really likes you to get back to you know, that's naturally. But yeah, it just, it was such an easy transition. For me, I feel like fetish kind of cushion the blow a little bit to like this big leap. And I felt like I was much a part of a much smaller community inside of this adult industry. So it really was, I think the perfect transition for me to go from one to the other.

Nick VinZant 10:42

Kind of makes sense. I honestly don't know what impact play is. But I would imagine that if you're kind of at this level, it's easier to to go down to this level, so to speak, in the mainstream.

Lexi Luna 10:54

Impact is anything like hitting like, oh, whipping anything that makes an impact? Oh,

Nick VinZant 11:00

that makes sense. That makes sense.

Lexi Luna 11:03

And it's there's a big variety, when you really think about how many different things you can use to make impact there. The toys are really like there's a there's a fetish about that. And like the leather and all the different things that these toys are made of. I haven't I have alligator whips. I have rubber, Spanx, lagers, I have a lot of different types of stuff. And that's also kind of the fun part is like having tools. And you know, me as a teacher, like, I love office supplies, and it's kind of the same thing, like those are the office supplies of the fetish world. It was really fun. And you know, it like gave me something else to do. And that's something that was like, exciting to learn about. And I think that's really where this all stems from is that I'm just curious.

Nick VinZant 11:47

So here comes like the person viewing it from the outside kind of right. But did you ever regretted like, because it doesn't seem like once you take this step?

Lexi Luna 11:56

There's no going back? Right? At the beginning, I don't think I realized that there was no going back. I didn't realize how quickly and how massively like you are out there. There is no reeling it back in. Like, once you've decided to be on the internet, you are on the internet there. There's you know, and once I click it was probably like in the first month I was a roller coaster where I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what did I do? Do I really want to do this am I going to be successful, because ultimately, there's no guarantee that you're successful, there's no guarantee people like you, or your brand, or what you do. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of potential that you'll get harassed, and there's a lot of potential that you know, you'll never be able to hold a regular job. She says an air quotes, again, because this stuff is really easy to find, especially if you do a lot of it. And to do to be successful, you have to do a lot of it. So it was a little bit at the beginning, I was a little unsure. But then once I started like being like, fuck it, I'm owning this, I'm doing this, I'm making a business out of this, I want nothing to do with anybody who isn't supportive. And like, this is my life, I get to make my choices, I am responsible for my happiness, not somebody else. And once I got to this, like peace of empowerment, then it just like there was no stopping me. And you know, five years, six years later Now I'm has 100% happy with what I've done. I can't wait to continue doing more and figuring out the nuances of this industry because boy, does it change often. And the ebbs and flows. And it's exciting, but it's also secure. Like, I know, this isn't going anywhere. Nobody can take this from me. And I think that a lot of people can't say that about their job.

Nick VinZant 13:37

Good for you. Thanks. For you. I guess that is one kind of question. We were talking about a little bit like no going back from the only fans perspective, and I wanted to hear what you had to think about this. Because look, here I am, you know, middle aged 3030 year old guy, my What is my What do I know about this kind of stuff. But I kind of wondered like, for for people who got into it during the pandemic and were on only fans were was suddenly so accessible? Do they really know what they were getting into?

Lexi Luna 14:08

Right? I don't think so. Because I don't think they saw it as being on the internet. They're not on Pornhub. So they're not porn stars. But your content is on the internet. And people have probably already stolen it and put it on a tube site and are making money off of you. Like that's the reality of being in porn. My content that I make today is stolen tomorrow. And because I have ways to track my content, I know where it's going. And I can take it down DMCA Digital Millennium Copyright Act, is the protection within the United States that allows me to say hey, that person has a video of me that's my content, take it down, and the website has to comply. So that's a little bit of like the protection legal side of this. But that doesn't matter in Europe. That doesn't matter in other countries because this is an issue erican law, you know, and people are viewing you all over the world, places you don't even know. So, you know, it's I don't think they knew what they're getting themselves into dabbling a little bit to supplement your income is not really how sex work works. Like this is kind of an all or nothing thing, especially with the age of the internet. Maybe there was a time when porn stars were the girls that were on VHS tapes, and that was like, they were like, wow, unattainable. But now we are accessible. We are your friends, we can together, we spend hours a week together, talking getting to know each other. This is a relationship. And I think that that is the part that more junior content creators haven't learned yet or haven't realized, is kind of what makes this interesting and what makes them have a job.

Nick VinZant 15:51

Do you like that aspect of we'll use only fancy as an example. But whatever this platform like evolves into, do you like that aspect of it more where you're kind of interacting with people more? Or do you like it more where Hey, I make this video, I put it on the internet, I cash my check. I mean, obviously, I'm oversimplifying, but like, what are those, which I love,

Lexi Luna 16:09

I love connecting with my fans, I always tell people that lexy Luna doesn't exist without fans, like my persona, my character doesn't exist if people don't consume it. And the way that people consume it is by feeling a connection. I mean, that's what humans do. And because I feel 100% empowered, and 100%, like this is something I chose to do on my own terms, I love to connect with people who are like, I love your content gets me through tough times, you've really helped me during this depressed period of my life, like I get these kinds of feedback from people, and it's really, really fucking great that I can help people like that, because I was never able to help my students in a way that I can help these people. And my fans, because that's what that's just how the education system is mean, you know, you don't really get to help people, you just kind of get to maintain the status quo of what education means in America. So to me, it's been so rewarding to like, get the feedback. Because, yeah, when I was teaching, maybe in 15 years, a kid would come back and be like, Oh, you were so influential in my life? Maybe. But I get that kind of feedback from my fans daily. And it's really great.

Nick VinZant 17:24

Do you for the devil's advocate kind of question on that side, though? Do you ever feel like these people might be engaging in a relationship with you that they're never going to have in real life, right, like, because they might be creating fantasies in their head, like, hey, look, she's my friend, she told me Hi, today,

Lexi Luna 17:39

right? That's the part where is it, there's a fine line. And I am very upfront with all my fans. And I make sure that I'm constantly reminding them, I'm a fantasy. And this is really fun to dabble in this, but this is not something that is real, you know, and we can have this relationship, and we can do all these different things. And yeah, it is fun to sit on cam and shoot the shit and have inside jokes with the people who are on there, from the previous can sessions and all that kind of stuff. But ultimately, I cannot supplement a real in person relationship for them. And when, when or if I feel that that is starting to happen with a particular fan, I cut it off, because it's not fair. I'm I'm just not going to feel responsible for, you know, people just locking themselves in their house and talking to me online. Like there's a, there's definitely a piece of that, that I and that's my internal struggle is like kind of checking in and making sure that, you know, we're still doing this fantasy roleplay piece, and we're not actually creating a meaningful relationship that's going to come to pass.

Nick VinZant 18:43

Which one is generally more financially rewarding for you the only fans aspect that kind of an aspect, or is it for the more kind of mainstream producers kind of stuff,

Lexi Luna 18:54

it's tricky, because they're really interwoven, only fans is instant. Whereas working with bigger companies, I might make less money for the amount of time I put in, but they can also promote me in a much bigger scope than I can promote myself. So you know, for example, rozzers has millions of followers on Instagram, they put a picture of me and my scene that's coming out, I'm instantly my rank on Pornhub increases, because people are searching me because they're like, Oh, yeah, I love Lexi. Why haven't I looked at her stuff, let me go on Pornhub and search her. And that increases my rank, which increases my visibility, which increases my only fans revenue yet. And this is all kind of working together, which is why it's really important to diversify. And to make sure that not all your eggs are in one basket because things like this can happen. And you know, if something were to go away and you can no longer process payment as of October one, you know, you have to be prepared. You're running a business,

Nick VinZant 19:53

how many hours a day a week, whatever, however you want to define it like how much time would you put into it.

Lexi Luna 19:58

It's almost constant Not only do I manage the only fans, I also manage a texting and calling and video chatting platform called sex Panther at techflex, Luna calm. And it's, you know, the the text comes straight to my cell phone. So I am literally in touch with fans all day every day. There is no time where I'm not working. But my job doesn't feel like work. So it's really, it's really exciting to just be on call, but be in total control. If I wanted to shut it all down for a day, I absolutely could. But I don't need to because I don't feel stressed out by my job. I don't feel like I'm putting in 60 hours a week and getting nothing in return. So it's just to think that in my life, this has been the career that I've had the longest is just kind of crazy, like I'm 32. And I'm in my second career, and it's going really well. It's kind of nuts, isn't it? Right? Like I could never feel this way from education or education of children. I can feel this way educating adults, I teach guys how to lick pussy. I teach guys on how to have open relationships and how to communicate with their partners, and all these really important social skills that nobody ever teaches us. And I teach people that it's okay to want sex. Like that's a totally human normal thing. And we have been suppressed so much. And it's so taboo to be horny, like, get the fuck out of here.

Nick VinZant 21:22

Do you? Do you ever feel like though like, Okay, this 24 seven sex like Do you ever get just oh my god? Yeah. Does that ever get to do Sorry? Does it? Sorry, we I think we were both like, Well, yeah. But does it ever like, okay, does that affect your personal life? Or like, Look, I've done all this all day. I don't really feel like doing this right now, you know, is that does that take a toll on generally not only Europe, but like people who work in the same industry? Are you just worn out and like, a job becomes a job at some point, just don't want to do my job

Lexi Luna 21:56

when I'm not right job. To some degree. Yes. But also, it's not sex job all the time. Sometimes it's chitchat, and it's not sexual at all. Sometimes it's very sexual. Sometimes. It's actual penetration. Sometimes I'm on set for 12 hours, and it's just like, a really long fucking day. And yeah, that's when it kind of does feel like work. And it's like, Can we just say the lines to do the fucking and go home? Like, you know, so for sure, there are those times, but the benefits definitely outweigh the risks, and it's far more of the excited can't wait to come back to work. Part than it is the I'm exhausted and don't want sex part. You know, like, everybody gets tired for sure. But it's not always a physical tax. So it doesn't always feel like, you know, I don't know if that makes sense. It does. Right.

Nick VinZant 22:50

Like, it's not. How do I say this necessary? Right, like, it's not always just, I can't say this to another person who's not my wife. But it's not always just like, pounding away. Yeah, there's other parts too.

Lexi Luna 23:08

Right. Right. Right. And especially as a female, like, I can I consume sex in a different way. And I affect me differently than it affects a male counterpart. And, you know, that's also part of it. Like, I get a lot of the emotional and like, foreplay kind of stuff fulfilled, talking to my fans and knowing that, like, they're so into me, and this is like, that's hot to me. So it doesn't have to be sex to be sex.

Nick VinZant 23:36

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? So I submitted questions. Okay, cool. We do we got some, um, what is your favorite kind of scene? What is your least favorite kind of scene?

Lexi Luna 23:49

Great question. My favorite kind of scene is a scene where I get to be what they call the instigator. I'm the woman in charge. I'm the one kind of pushing for the sex. I'm the one who's like, making making like the scenario happen the way that I want. So very empowering. Very, like exciting for me to just, you know, I don't know just put the pieces in play. Just Yeah,

Nick VinZant 24:13

just go for it. Right.

Lexi Luna 24:15

That's definitely fun. My least favorite kind of scene is any scene where I feel as though my scene partner or partners are not as interested as I am in like, either getting the job done or making a great scene or you know, whatever. And I I want to have everybody that I work with want to be there 100% and if they're giving off vibes that they're just like, I'm kind of only in this for the paycheck and don't get me if the camera's not rolling like I'm not into that.

Nick VinZant 24:48

So that's why I always kind of wondered and like, you see people having sex on camera and stuff like that, like are they generally kind of into it like are this is like okay, alright, seem to we're doing this stupid. As you know what to do, let's go with move it like,

Lexi Luna 25:03

it definitely depends, I bring a level of intimacy to my scenes before the scene starts, I talked to my scene partners. And I'm like, I, like tell them the things I like and don't like sexually and ask them for the same and like flirt a little bit and get, you know, get the juices going. And it's fun to, like, let's not take out the human element of this. It's fun to connect even for an hour when we're doing the scene. And it's, you know, I'm open to that I don't feel like it's disingenuous to have a short term connection. So I think I put a lot of performers at ease with that, because it's like, no, like, this can be fun, and we're gonna have a great day. And I think that's the teacher. And me, too, is like, making people feel comfortable. And, you know, welcome. So, yeah, I definitely think it depends on the people involved. But there is some acting involved. For sure, I guess. For sure, but it's also fun to act over act the like passion, because you know, it's gonna be so great when it comes out. And then that kind of feeds into the actual having the Pat actually having the passion to bring to the to the screen. So it's kind of like a cyclical for sure.

Nick VinZant 26:15

Your favorite title. Like the favorite title that you had, and it can be cheesy, or it can be actually good.

Lexi Luna 26:24

Okay, I'll give you one of my, my own videos that I've recorded. And then one of professional scene. My favorite one that I've come up with is a three way girl scene that I did in Hawaii, and it's called Maui, munching.

Nick VinZant 26:45

This is pretty good. Pretty good, right? Yes. That's an immediate thought is like that's the best pop as possible title that you could have come up with for that kind of. Now, you mentioned, there's no way to improve it.

Lexi Luna 27:00

Now. If there's not it's perfect as is. Yeah, I'm trying really hard to grasp that something really a different title. It's not there.

Nick VinZant 27:08

No, I don't even need to know anything about that. I know exactly what that is. Yeah. Any of the scenes into this another question any of the scenes that you have an outright like, you know, there's always the pizza delivery guy. Has any of that ever happened to you in real life?

Lexi Luna 27:27

Okay, so no, but yes, but no. It's not like a typical scenario, but I did seduce a girl is similar to the way that I have seduced girls in videos. When before I was ever in porn. I had no idea. But I didn't really like get the hint that she was dropping, because like, you know, I don't know anything about this. Like I'm newly in my sexual revolution. And it was a girl I met at one of the kink events that I went to, and we just started hanging out and she would like come over to my apartment and we would listen to like glass animals. so bad. But I ended up bucketed with a strap on and that was fun.

Nick VinZant 28:09

Yeah, and it's weird how people are always people, right? Like, you still can't pick up hints.

Lexi Luna 28:13

Nope, I am the worst at flirting. I do not know if anybody's ever interested in me. I like rarely look people in the eyes. I walked on the street like I'm so fucking shy, which is not at all what you would think if you saw my videos. But yeah, it's

Nick VinZant 28:28

this is like, so since she was just in here, my wife and I the other day we're trying to find like, just normal. Like, what would you call it? like normal? Not like, like sexual porn. Do they not make that on? Me theme? Yeah, right. Right guys pound out girl. Like, how can they stop making like, hey, a couple would like to enjoy this a couple. How come they stopped making let me

Lexi Luna 28:57

give you first of all a website that actually might do this for you. It's called Walesa. b e LL. e. s A. They do more of the like couple fun sweets romantical like I think that is more what you're looking for it now. The reason that there is so much taboo in porn is because that is what people are searching. We are making porn specifically based on the Google searches the Pornhub searches searches by gender searches by age group searches by everything like Pornhub breaks it the fuck down. They tell you what people are looking for what kind of search terms they're interested in. And how many of them milk number one category. Huge category just thank you American Pie. That's literally when it started. And ever since American Pie coined the term milk porn has been raking in the cash doing milk porn. And you know when you really think about it, we are just a reflection of society. So people are searching things like fucking your stepmom and fucking your stepsister and all that kind of stuff. That's because if you think about the family dynamics in American families, American households, there was a period of time where a lot of families were getting were transitioning, and there was a divorce. And then there was a new girlfriend, and then there was that girlfriends, kids, and now it's a blended family. And it doesn't seem wrong, because those aren't your relatives. So like, you know, when when you're in that developing age, and this happens to your family, the urges are there, and then that's very long lasting, like sex is a very powerful tool in our brains. So I don't think that it really goes away. So then that's always that like, dirty thing that makes you horny.

Nick VinZant 30:46

Are porn stars generally good at sex? Like you would say, like, Oh, yeah. Cuz you would think that they would be really good. But are they really good? Are they like the NBA the top of their game? People at it?

Lexi Luna 30:57

That's a great question. I think that's depends on the performer. I, when you look at porn, you see everything. That's not how real sex goes. So we are opening to the camera a lot so that you can see the penetration so that you can see all the action that's happening. So in. In real life, having sex with a porn performer, not on set is a great experience. having sex with a porn performer where you're constantly spread open, and in these awkward positions and showing your tits all the time. And like in these, like acrobatic positions, is not the best sex. Think about how much of sex you can actually see when you're having sex. Not a whole lot. So if you can see it, that means that there's separation between the people and there's, you know, light can enter and you can actually see what's happening. And because of that it makes for achieving orgasms very challenging, because it just doesn't feel super comfortable. Now, yes, we do come on set, because after a certain amount of fucking, like, your body's just gonna do it. There's just a point of no return where you're like, Alright, even though it's uncomfortable, we're going

Nick VinZant 32:07

to talk target enough, you're going to hit an event.

Lexi Luna 32:09

Exactly. I wouldn't say that. But I would say that any, any person who listens to their partner and pays attention to their partner is good at sex. That's what makes people good at sex. It's not that they're good at like, physically having sex. It's paying attention that makes for the best sex

Nick VinZant 32:30

partners. will will will people who work in the industry, will they like, watch other performers and be like, Oh, I really like what this person does there. I want each other's technique. Oh, fuck yeah,

Lexi Luna 32:41

that is how I learned to do what I do. There was that there comes a point where I'm like, okay, I don't I know, understand how she looks so fucking beautiful. And I feel like I'm like a hyena over here. You know, so you watch. And then the good male talent also knows how to position you and how to open you up and how to hold your arm. So you were just balancing on each other. And so you're not like, trying to hold yourself up and open. And like, there's definitely an art form to it. And but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's tricky.

Nick VinZant 33:14

It's tricky. It's tricky. Oh, what is your most interesting fan request?

Lexi Luna 33:20

I have a fan who really likes for me to get on cam or do a custom video where I use a dildo, and it has to have balls. And I take my makeup brushes and my hair and I tickle his clock with it. So I'll take my makeup brushes, and I'll brush on the balls in the shaft and I'll say Tickle, tickle, tickle. And then I'll take my hair and I'll wrap it around the caulk and stroke it like a hair job. And that is probably my most interesting request.

Nick VinZant 33:47

You don't have to say their name. But on a scale of one to 10. Like let's say one is somebody who's like not famous at all. 10 we're talking about like, Tom Brady level famous. What level would you say is the most famous person who is trying to get into your direct messages? That's pretty good. That's a great question. That question. I love it. You can name names if you want to. Oh, no, no, I would never i i

Lexi Luna 34:21

i would say like a level six payments, but only once and it was kind of prompted by an event. So it wasn't like, it wasn't like they were trying to slide in and be like, hey, you don't you DTF right. But

Nick VinZant 34:36

yeah,

Lexi Luna 34:36

yeah. Not not super famous. But I'm also like, I do not give off the vibe of slide into my DMS like at fucking all. And I think that it comes across. And you know, I've closed my DMS actually because unless I follow you, because I get a lot of spam.

Nick VinZant 34:56

Yeah, I had imagined that you would get quieter, quieter. have interesting messages that would come through.

Lexi Luna 35:03

Oh, hey, wait, I forgot to tell you my favorite title. That isn't my own. So I did this VR scene. And it was basically like, my new husband and his ex wife is having a garage sale of all his old shit. Because she's like selling off his stuff. Because you know, he's keep crossed her, and it is called a bargain bangin.

Nick VinZant 35:30

Have there ever been any instances though, where like you or somebody, you know, was getting ready to do a scene and you're like, this is this is too ridiculous. This is too ridiculous.

Lexi Luna 35:39

We take ourselves that seriously. And often the names aren't part of the script, like the they don't know ahead of time. Typically. Sometimes they do depends on the company. But you know, it's that's the thing. People are always like, Oh, just like in the porn title, or in the porn movies, like, like, everything's so ridiculous. It is ridiculous. That's what makes it fun. And that's like, do not take this too seriously, really don't like it's meant it is entertainment. It is a fantasy. And it's fun. And I think people sometimes are like, try to, you know, reach that reality piece a little too much. And that's when like, you're only hurting yourself. Because we're all just having fun naming lista

Nick VinZant 36:25

Do you think that there will be more censorship, censorship or less censorship in the future?

Lexi Luna 36:33

That's tricky, because it seems as though we are going towards more censorship 100% of the time, but sex workers prevail. And we are used to being censored and finding away Because ultimately, the product we have is so good that it won't ever go away. You can never censor it to the point where it's gone. And I think if politicians just teamed up with us, instead of trying to erase us and our voices, I think that would be a lot better for everybody involved and a lot safer. And it would, it could be regulated differently. You know, like, every, all of us also don't want under eight teams on our sites. 100%. Like, we are all on the same fucking page when it comes to that kind of thing. But taking away the incomes of sex workers, the way that some platforms have done is just there's no need for it, that it's just a malicious way to like run policy, and, you know, foster acesta, which is the legislation that has been really tricky for us as of late and, you know, I'd say in the last four years. It doesn't make sex works safer for anybody that the way that it claims. All it does is, you know, marginalize and ostracize people who aren't in the top 10% of porn performers or who aren't, you know, who are not online sex workers, their in person sex workers. So really, working with us would be a lot more beneficial to to society as a whole than working against us.

Nick VinZant 38:08

Why statement? Okay, big question. Okay, Tanya, send me this. Well, she didn't send me this question. But she mentioned this favorite Nintendo Switch game. Oh,

Lexi Luna 38:20

I had this really. I had this love affair with roller coaster tycoon, where you build a roller coaster theme park. And it's like, you build all the rides, and you build the shops and you get more people to come to your stuff. And you can watch them do all the rides and stuff. It's like, it's like, like watching this like maze of people like little ants in your park. And it's really cool. And you can pick people up and drop them other places. And I love it. But lately, I've really been into Mario Kart. And but I don't play online because like, I am not that good. And these kids online will fucking destroy me. And then they'll be like, you suck. I can't handle it. So I just played like a play by myself.

Nick VinZant 38:58

Mario or Mario or Zelda. Mario is in the game. It's

Lexi Luna 39:09

Poppy. And it's fun. And like I have I'm looking I'm in my living room add like seven different plush toys that are Mario and, like, I love the clean graphic design of it. And I really like that. It's like light hearted like, there aren't scary games. I'm not like, I'm not a gamer girl like I just, you know, I don't I can't handle too much stress. If my hands are sweating. I'm fucking done. Like I can't do

Nick VinZant 39:30

it. That's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else? You think we missed her kind of? Next for you.

Lexi Luna 39:36

Oh, man, I just finished a project called cusecs. It is it was a mainstream project where I got to play an 80s sex goddess and I suck people into my alternate dimension. It's really cool. It's unfoldment features. So hopefully gearing up for a second one, a second episode or third episode of that. I plan to maybe start filming Mainstream court I don't know, it's tough right now because you know, COVID, and testing and all that kind of stuff, we are all traveling or flying across the country to shoot and stuff like that. So it's just, I'm kind of staying put right now. But I am, you know, trying to figure out the next platform because as we know, October one, the porn part of the porn platform is departing swiftly. So I'm curious to hear what the actual statement is, and to see how this all happens. But right now just making content for my fans connecting with them. camming doing all the great stuff that I've always done, because ultimately, we got through it, we always do.

Slapfighting Champion Koa Viernes

Koa Viernes is the undefeated champion of Slapfighting Champion. Everyone he's faced has either tapped out or been knocked out. We talk Slapfighting techniques, internet fame and his quest to take a fringe sport mainstream. Then, we countdown a special slap-worthy Top 5.

Koa Viernes: 01:30ish

Pointless: 22:18ish

Top 5: 42:21ish

https://www.instagram.com/da_crazy_hawaiian (Koa Viernes Instagram)

Interview with Slapfighter Koa Viernes

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, slap fighting and slab bubble offenses,

Koa Viernes 0:21

the drive that I have now to be the best slap fighter is unparalleled. And I don't think I'm going to lose, you know, people might see it as you know, reckless and, you know, idiotic and all that. But, you know, I see it as an opportunity to create a sport. Anyone can be a software, anybody, you know, you want to try it, try it out if you if you got the character, if you got the willingness to continue, surround after around and you can become a thing.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So you've probably heard of slap fighting, or at least seen some videos of it online. At the very least, you have to admit, it's interesting. So we wanted to know more about the people who are participating in this sport. Our first guest is an undefeated slap fighting champion. This is co v arnaiz. So slap fighting, like how did you get into this?

Really, really, I got into it by watching YouTube. It was just a thing that I thought, you know, at first, I was like, I can do that. And then I was working. And on my break, I saw on Facebook that there was a slot for a competition on down the road from where you know where I live. And I contacted my wife and I said, Hey, I kind of want to try and do this. So she was like, go for it. You know, she's super supportive of me whatever stupid things that I do. The rest is history, man. I just decided to do it.

So you had no like you just showed up yet never

Koa Viernes 2:15

know. The first one that I did was a hillbilly versus a crazy wine versus hillbilly hippie. And that's one that you know, a lot of people recognize me for. For me, I'm a big critic of my own technique. So it's not my proudest performance, but it's the one that got me probably got me to where I am now. Because it's a went 21 rounds. And he was a tough guy. He was a really tough guy out of all my stop fights. You know, no one went 21 rounds with me. So kudos to him. And the drive that I have now to be the best lap fighter is unparalleled. And I don't think I'm gonna lose, you know, and if even if I do, I'll take it like a champ. You know, I asked for a rematch. But you know, slot fighting is a thing now. And a lot of people don't understand that it's gonna be a thing. It's not going to stay a spectacle.

Nick VinZant 3:19

What about it drew you to it?

Koa Viernes 3:22

So savagery, the rawness just just being being able to actually do that. I mean, some, some will say is kind of like evil in a sense, but really, it's it. It's no less fun than going in there in a boxing ring and doing the same thing to somebody. But this time, they're, you know, they're not trying to move their head back and forth and stay away from your punches. So really, it's it's, it's who got the best chain. Really, that's, that's really what it is. And I'm right now on you know, I'm the best at it and taking on challenges, you know,

Nick VinZant 4:03

from what I've seen, right? Like, is there anything more to it? In a sense, it's just around is he slaps you, you slap him?

Koa Viernes 4:11

Yeah, it's a coin toss. And then you get as soon as you get slapped by opponent. Um, you get a minute to recover and a minute to to answer back. And, and that's the basic rules of it. Sometimes you have around limits or five rounds, seven rounds. And sometimes you go unlimited rounds. And I've done a bunch of them. Super fun, but you know, people might see it as, you know, reckless and, you know, idiotic and all that. But, you know, I see it as an opportunity to create a sport,

Nick VinZant 4:50

from the outsider's perspective is like, man, why are people doing this? Right? Like, what would be I guess what would be your answer to that question?

Koa Viernes 5:00

Wow, man. Um, okay, so when you when a boxer respected boxer because I respect the art of boxing, if he comes into the ring and he gets hit really bad, you know, and some of them they get knocked out this really is to test your, your, your willingness to keep on going, you know, and you know, people might say oh man, the CTE and you know, brain damage and all that, but all these guys that are doing, you know, MMA, boxing, kickboxing, they're getting hit in the head tube. You know, it's not, it's not a contactless sport, you know, it's to say that there's a lot of things that you need to take into account, like, I gave myself a limit, you know, I've got I've got two more years to do this, and then I'm going to slowly work on work my way into boxing. And, um, you know, we'll see that how that goes. But, you know, this is not a lifelong career of mine. I just, I want to turn it turn it into a sport, I want to be a pioneer. I want to when they say oh, slot fighting is stupid ball, and then they look oh, check Did you didn't know about the crazy Hawaiian who tried to make it legal, we'll try to make put license behind that try to get physicals done before that even even the sport, you know, even before you walk up onto the table and risk your life. I'm not just a competitor, you know, I'm trying I'm reaching out, you know, to people that that are reaching out to me, and I'm trying to figure something out where, you know, who knows, it might be an Olympic sport all I don't know.

Nick VinZant 6:51

Who knows? You never know, right? Or you never know, I guess any sport. When it starts out, you're kind of like, what is this? Like people on the water taking a boat back and forth across obstacles? Well, I guess that's now an Olympic sport of kayaking, right? Like, right, everybody, I guess everything's kind of strange when it starts out, right, right.

Koa Viernes 7:10

I believe it's most strange to have this because people love it. And people love to hate it. And it's, it's some that, you know, that will drive a conversation for hours, you know, and I'm here to I'm here to make a splash in that you know, and be and be the, the one guy that stepped up because right now, all slot fighters all I want to try stop fighting. And they don't realize that, you know, right now there's no money and stop fighting. You know, and, and, and the people that are doing it right now is doing it strictly for the sport and it to be a thing. And when the money comes, that's when everybody's gonna be like, wow, this wasn't such a bad sport.

Nick VinZant 7:54

So is there like, do you have it? Is there a technique to it? Are you just, I'm just gonna do this as hard as I can. Right?

Koa Viernes 8:01

I have a little story behind that. So the first one I went to, I literally came off the couch. Well, really, I was working construction, but I really wasn't doing anything. Nothing really to prepare myself for that. So if you watch that video, you're like, wow, you know, whatever. But, um, I watched that video and, and I watched it over 100,000 times. And I every time I watch it, I'm just disappointed. Because I didn't have any technique, I didn't have any any aim. I didn't have any respect for the sport. So I watch it over and over again. And I promised myself like, I'm not gonna make myself look stupid like that again. So I'm gonna have a technique. So a lot of my technique is we're already I'm already over 200 pounds and power really ain't got nothing to do with it. Um, it's, it's your speed at this size is just really it's your speed and your aim. And as soon as you get all that down, and you know, you'd be you'd be knocking them down, one after another, but uh, it's it's not like boxing or MMA where you got to learn a whole bunch of techniques and all that. It's really simple people overthink it. And, you know, it's, it's a simple, easy sport, and I like to capitalize on that. And that alone.

Nick VinZant 9:29

So is there is there a rule in terms of like, Alright, cuz you're slapping somebody, but I can hit you with my fingers or I could hit you with my whole hand. Or I could kind of like, hit you in my palm. You know that hard part or like your palm? Right? is there is there a way that you have to hit somebody?

Koa Viernes 9:46

So um, for me, by experience, your whole hand counts as a slap. So your palm your fingers in this whole area, anything below your palm Wouldn't be considered, you know, clubbing or hitting with the wrist. And really, if you hit, you know, if you hit and you hit you with your fingers, it's kind of a missed hit. The aiming part about it is is 100% where it's at, but you know, don't tell everybody.

Nick VinZant 10:23

Where are you aiming for? Like, is there a specific part of somebody's face? Oh, man, you're gonna. Yeah, today is a secret.

Koa Viernes 10:32

Is it a secret? No. I mean, really? It's right under your, your bottom lips. Right? It really is your chin like, yeah, if you put your hand right here, the bottom of your palm really has to sit right here. Oh,

Nick VinZant 10:50

you want your palm? Like, if somebody took their hand and put it right underneath the side of their bottom lip from their palm? That's where you're really aiming. Okay. Is it like snaps their head around? Huh?

Koa Viernes 11:02

Yeah. So, I mean, that's what I'm doing. But I'm sure those are gonna do that. But a lot of people don't realize, you know, it's not just it's not how much of you know landscape you can cover when you slapping people. It's really where where their button is. And everybody has one, you know, I won, you know? And it might be just the way you have to hit me. I don't know. But that's that for me. I practice more on my accuracy now more than ever. And every everything after the hillbilly fight has been a knockout. Anyone can be a sapphire. anybody you know, you want to try try it out if you if you got the character if you got the willingness to continue, surround after around and you can become a thing.

Nick VinZant 11:55

But how much does having another large person smack you in the face over and over again? hurt?

Koa Viernes 12:03

Oh, well. That's why that's why, you know, I got I still got a lot more secrets. But um, you know, if I don't knock you out on the first one, then you you deserve to hit me. And that's how I think like it, if you win the coin toss. You better knock me out. If not, then I'm gonna hit you hard after you hit me. So really, it's the feeling of having somebody slap me is almost exhilarating. Like in and in a sense where? Okay, it's your turn. Here you go. I'm giving you a free shot. Yeah, and it's my turn after that. And it's, it's, it's a mind game when you're up there. It really is. It's more of a mind game than anything else. Because if you break down your opponent before you even slap or you get slapped, you know, it's kind of a win already. And that if you guys losses long without getting a knockout, then really the judges are gonna gonna look at who was more of a character and who was who gave more of effort and who stand who stood there while somebody slapped them and slapped about it or something or scream that then you know, and there's no other person like me in the sport. That's what I that's what I think I mean, there's there's some big big guys and they got you know, they got their techniques, but believe anybody out there has character or made a character or you know,

Nick VinZant 13:42

yeah, sure they can slap and all that but just to make a character out of it. That's hard. And will you will you flinch or anything right when they're hit like what's the trick is the trick to the muscle up when they when you're about to get hit or just to completely relax?

Koa Viernes 13:57

I won't I tense up every bone every muscle in my body. Mostly my back muscles in my neck muscles and my my shoulders and I kind of tense up without looking like I'm tensing up. Yeah, no, and I'm really at the at the point of impact. I'm almost going into it and you can't really tell when they slap me but um, my, the opposite side of you know, the direction they're slapping me if they slap me on my right side of the right side of my face. my left foot is really really bog buckled down to the ground and willing to let that come all the way through me and not just stop right here. You know, I'm really when they when people hit me I would like to stare at them in their face and just take it without you know and scream at them after Like, it's weird, US guy, US bigger guys, and, you know, Polynesians and all that we're a bit will be built different really. And um, you know, I believe that one day in this sport we're gonna dominate, you know it weight has a lot of a lot to do with it too, because if you can swing as much weight as you can, and hit him where you think their button is, then then your last long are most of the people you're up against bigger than you are same size or smaller. I'd say half of the guys that I've went up against are bigger than me. But the smaller guys are really not that much more smaller than you know.

Nick VinZant 15:39

What's the next aisle? Okay, so in the moment you're getting slapped the adrenaline is up there. But what's the next day like? Cuz I mean, you did just get like slap in the face as hard as another person can hit.

Koa Viernes 15:49

Really, there was only one slap fight that I walked away that I had to recover from. It was the first one. I was probably swollen for a week. And and then it was back to normal. But every flat fight after that I really, I have to after the slap fight. I went to go and get some food Oh, my wife. Is this, like a lot of people? You know, they they're like, oh, how do you eat and you your face swollen, but my face only really went swollen once. And the rest of them were just like kind of red. You can't really tell cuz I'm a little darker. But you know, it it. It stings sometimes, but you know, it's not really unbearable. And it's fun. Like I said, it's fun to me.

Nick VinZant 16:44

Do you know, do you have to hit? Can you just like, hit somebody on the same side of the face over and over again? Or do you have to hit one side then hit the other side?

Koa Viernes 16:52

Well, there's right now there's promotions that are popping up all over. I'm one in Miami, one in California and one away on me. One in New York, Poland Russian Russians, obviously, but every one of them has their own set of rules. If you get penalized for doing some that you're not supposed to do, then some of them they go, Oh, you get slapped again, you get a warning. And then the next one is a penalty. And you would have to take two slaps both meaning lose a turn.

Nick VinZant 17:25

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes, I'm done with that. Better Way to slap forehand or backhand?

Koa Viernes 17:37

Uh, I've never really slapped somebody on my with my backhand. Without that would be, you know, that would kind of almost be the same but not really. You got knuckles involved and, and all that. But I would like to try something to hit someone with my backhand, you know, because I've, I've opened hand people before, so that'll be that'll be a fun thing to do. To say that I did at least

Nick VinZant 18:09

when you're in competition, is it better to be able to slap hard? Or is it better to be able to be able to take the slap? What's more often, I guess, being able to hit or get hit?

Koa Viernes 18:22

I strongly believe that anyone can knock anyone out with the right, you know, technique. I feel like it's it's taking it. That's more like defenses win championships, like this kind of the same thing.

Nick VinZant 18:38

Can you tell by the sound? Like are there different sounds a slap is going to make the you're like, Oh, that's a good one.

Koa Viernes 18:44

I can, I can. So when it's just kind of a third. It's more of less of an open hand and more of a cup. And a lot of people do that. That's that is legal. You just can't you just can't do that. You know, it has to be kind of like that. And the open your open hand is is a is more of a high pitch kind of you know and yeah, that that more of a sudden or a cupping? That's more of a thud and yeah, I can I can identify what exactly how they slept and how they landed with just the sound if you play the whole one two different sounds I would I would get it.

Nick VinZant 19:39

Guaranteed best slap you've ever seen in a movie or TV show?

Koa Viernes 19:45

I'm thinking the office never watch the office. Yeah, I know it's Yeah. Yeah, do I got slapped? Oh, Angela, who would you say is a better proportionate slapper men or women? Like if they were if we were all if we if men and women were the same size Like who? Who's the better slapper? Um,

Nick VinZant 20:18

who was how hard when it for men and women were the same size? Who's a better slacker? Um,

Koa Viernes 20:26

I say the one with the bigger chin. Um,

Nick VinZant 20:29

one last thing for me, man, where do you think this? Like? What's kind of the future? Where do you think this goes?

Koa Viernes 20:35

I really believe in my heart that this sport will go further than most people think it will. And, and I have high hopes for it. You know, I'm, there is a production company that that I'm in contact with that, dude, we're just gonna do a documentary series about in slot fighting and how I train for it. So, um, I think that'll be the start of a big change in the sport because no one understands like we were just average blue collar people know I work at Costco is ups and Amazon. Like things that normal people do. And, you know, when people see that they're gonna be like, What in the world? They're wise, they're gonna be like, Hey, I'll be a slap fighter.

Nick VinZant 21:32

Gobi is lap five. Right here. Just mow the lawn.

Koa Viernes 21:36

Yeah. Go get out there slap some man. No, I really and I couldn't do it without the support of my wife and she wholeheartedly believes me as much as I believe in myself. And, uh, you know, if I do get knocked out in the sport, man. Good job. I want to get up and shake his hand. Give him a hug. And tell him good frickin job. No, it's my turn.

Master Bladesmith Liam Hoffman

Before he was a Forged in Fire Champion, Liam Hoffman spent years failing over and over again. We talk bladesmithing techniques, $8,000 knives and how lightsabers will impact his business plans. Then, we countdown a special “Sharp” Top 5.

Liam Hoffman : 01:38ish

Pointless: 24:30ish

Top 5 Sharp Things: 42:17ish

https://www.instagram.com/hoffmanblacksmithing (Liam Hoffman Instagram)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/488427804697345 (Liam Hoffman Facebook)

http://www.hoffmanblacksmithing.com (Liam Hoffman Website)

Interview with Bladesmith Liam Hoffman

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, Master blade Smith's and our favorite sharp stuff.

Liam Hoffman 0:21

But I do think that you should suffer to a healthy amount of suffering is good for you. And learning. I think that a lot of people who are first starting out, get down on themselves too quickly about their progress that they're making. Because if you were to look back at my progress, it's pretty horrible compared to a lot of people's. So when steel is red hot, it is rapidly oxidizing, just like rust. But that rust is, like I said, quickly, rapidly peeling off of the hot steel and it falls on to you. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If

Nick VinZant 0:57

you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest has a fascinating story. Because not only does he do something that is just incredibly interesting on how this gets done, but he's also somebody that has gotten so good at his craft, that his knives and axes sell for 1000s of dollars, and he's a forged in fire champion. But before any of that, he spent years failing over and over and over again. This is Master bladesmith. Liam Hoffman, how did you get started in this? What drew you to blacksmithing?

Liam Hoffman 1:41

Simply boredom. You know, I'm in the mountains of North Carolina and right on the Tennessee North Carolina line. So there's it's either you growing up, it's either drugs or something creative, pretty much because there's no nightlife or anything like that. So you just have to find things to do. And I, when I was young, about 13 years old, I started hammering on a piece of steel, not knowing what I was doing. And then it just evolved from there.

Nick VinZant 2:09

When was when did you make like, what would you would call your first real blade?

Liam Hoffman 2:15

Probably not till I got out of high school. So I had, which was probably seven years ago or so I had been blacksmithing for around four years before I got out of high school. So I wasn't very proud of what I was doing until probably five or six years in

Nick VinZant 2:32

is that now is that normal for a lot of people? I mean, is it usually take that much time? No,

Liam Hoffman 2:37

no, a lot of people are really confused when they hear me talk about that, because a lot of people see what I'm doing now. And then they just assume that I started that way or it was like really quick for me. But there's so many people that are beginners who are coming up to me now like wanting me to look at their work. They've been doing blade smithing and blacksmithing for a few months, and their work is better than mine was four years in. And I had a very slow start to stew it to it and then it picked up exponentially.

Nick VinZant 3:08

What How come this, how come the start was so slow?

Liam Hoffman 3:11

I would say mainly because I was just so ignorant about everything. I was 13 years old. And I'm also very shy. So as a kid, I wasn't very outgoing towards adults who may have known more about blacksmithing than me, so I was pretty sheltered and what I knew about everything tool knowledge is how to use normal tools or how to ask someone for advice. So and I wasn't until I got to high school that I started really like getting more exposed to blacksmithing community and and taking off from there.

Nick VinZant 3:43

I guess I'm not I'm not entirely sure how old you are. But I guess this is kind of before like the YouTube era where you could essentially just look, Google it and figure out pretty much everything right?

Liam Hoffman 3:52

No, I was I'm 20 I just turned 25. So when I was in high school, I had the YouTube, all the all that type of information. And so I was just trial and error trying to figure things out. But maybe I'm just not as good as a lot of other people. And that's why it took me so long. But I think that a lot of people who are first starting out, get down on themselves too quickly about their progress that they're making. Because if you were to look back at my progress, it's pretty horrible compared to a lot of people's in terms of like the technical aspects like you didn't get it the forge wasn't hot enough.

Nick VinZant 4:30

You didn't hit it with another enough strikes, or you didn't have like the artistic capabilities.

Liam Hoffman 4:36

I didn't know what good work were supposed to look like, which is what I've told a lot of people before is that you don't know what good work looks like. If you don't know what good work looks like. If you have no example then you don't know what you're striving for. I say it's a lot easier to tell in person. What work should look like when you get to hold a knife that's made by Master, then to see something on YouTube 99% of blacksmiths or knife makers that you're going to meet are like top notch guys, they're going to share everything with you, they're going to invite you in, they're going to cook for you, they're going to camp out with you hang out with you and share everything with you. And I wasn't really exposed to that early on.

Nick VinZant 5:20

Do you think looking back on it? Was that a good thing or a bad thing. Uh,

Liam Hoffman 5:26

I don't necessarily think that that specifically was either a good or bad thing. But I do think that you should suffer to a healthy amount of suffering is good for you. In learning. I, when I'm teaching people, I often try to show them the wrong way to do something so that they then understand the right way to do something. If you're only showing the right way to do something, then you don't actually understand why that's the right thing. So it's important to go through hardships and suffer and make mistakes. And then you can say, Oh, I know why that's a mistake. I know not to do that. I know not to do this. I know how that mistake happens. And now I know how to prevent it.

Nick VinZant 6:07

So that so that we have a better understanding of the difference between something that you make, and something that we can go to Target and buy, right like, what's what's the difference between a knife or an axe that you make, and something that I can go pick up for even like a high quality, something like I'm paying 100 bucks for this kitchen knife. Like what's the difference?

Liam Hoffman 6:27

Basically, everything, every single part of it 100 knives, sorry, $100 for a kitchen knife is not a lot of money. Maybe for target it is but my kitchen knives are insanely expensive. But blade Smith's who specialize in high end kitchen knives, I mean, you're talking about a three to 10 plus $1,000 kitchen knife, not $100, a $300 kitchen knife. And so when I say everything is different, I'm talking about the shape the design, the geometry of the cross section, which is the cutting edge, the spine, the types of bevels, where it's a flat grind, a convex grind, a hollow grind, a combination of a hollow grind, or a flat grind. The ergonomics of the handle, if it's an integral style handle, if it's a full tang, if it's hidden Tang type handle, there's everything the materials, the heat treating, which is the way that you process the material. And then of course, just the design, the design, the ergonomics of the knife is everything is different about it. And then when prices go up from there, you're mainly looking at brand and reputation because with high end blacksmithing high end knife making it is art. So you are paying for not just a utilitarian functional piece you're paying for someone's brand someone's art someone's reputation someone's experience.

Nick VinZant 7:56

Is it like one of the things if I did a blind test and I pick up your knife and I pick up somebody else's knife like that the mass produced 1am I noticing the difference? Like oh, my that's that's the second I pick it up really? Yeah, you should be able to Yeah. Is it different? The feel of it, the weight of it are all of the above

Liam Hoffman 8:17

all of the above? Yeah, without even looking at viewer in a blind test, I think that someone would be able to tell the difference between most production knives and most custom high end knives. Of course, there's gonna be some knives, you know, on the spectrum that might be closer to others. But there really is a huge difference between a an actual masterfully made high quality knife and a factory made knife. That's

Nick VinZant 8:43

I guess that's kind of surprising to me, because I would be under the impression that like a computer can do just about everything better than a human. Like, we haven't figured out a computer program that can design a knife that's better than one that that you can make yet.

Liam Hoffman 8:59

That's not necessarily it. So there's Yes, maybe we have the capability of doing it. But is that profitable? Is and then if you take like, we were just talking about the functionality aspect out of it, you have art, you have brand, you have reputation, and that's not something that a computer has. It's not personable, so people will spend X amount of money on my knives and axes, not just because the X or the knife is good, but because people because I made it because it's one of my axes.

Nick VinZant 9:32

Are we better at this, like blacksmithing as a whole? Are we better at this now than we were 1000 years ago? Or did we kind of have to re learn this skill? Better and what way? I don't I don't even know enough about it to even clarify it. I guess

Liam Hoffman 9:50

so like yeah, so I would say that. Shoot, I don't know uh, in terms of technological metallurgical processes were better now 100%. So when you, when you heat treat a piece of steel, that means that you, you change the properties of that steel. So you can have a piece of what's called high carbon steel. And that steel can be in a kneeled state, which is a soft state, I could bend it over my knee, if I had enough leverage, or that steel could be in a hardened and tempered state, which would be total opposite of that that same piece of steel could be hard enough to hold the knife edge. So and then, of course, you have different alloys of steel, there's hundreds of different types of steel, which is like it's like a recipe. It's like baking, you have iron, carbon, and manganese are three main ingredients. And then you can add other elements to that. And they didn't have that back then. So I would say that modern day steel selection, and our understanding of how to heat treat steel is far better than it was just 100 years ago, much less 500 years ago. But in terms of the artistry, I honestly haven't seen any advancement there, maybe, maybe we've degraded, you can look at pieces from 300 years ago, especially in the Middle East area, that are more ornate than I, I find it difficult for me to think of someone off the top of my head, a modern day maker that could make some of these pieces that were made 300 years ago without electricity. So I don't think that we have gotten any better in terms of what I would consider craftsmanship.

Nick VinZant 11:38

I don't know how much of like a historian of blacksmithing you are. But was the art ever kind of lost. Yeah, right. Like we had to relearn how to do these things.

Liam Hoffman 11:48

Absolutely. I'm not much of a historian on blacksmithing. But I do know that there was kind of a lull between early 1900s and the 1980s, where we got really into mass production, importing, and that type of thing, where the blacksmith was like a thing of the past, it was obsolete. And there was a long period of time, probably close to 60 years, where no one was really into blacksmithing as a hobby or anything. It was just seen as like this old thing that you don't, what's the point in it. And then there's something that people call like the blacksmith renaissance in the 1980s. And there was a resurgence of guys, and men and women that came forth and became began blacksmithing again, and they did have to relearn a lot of things and dig up a lot of things. And then there was another lol again until about seven, eight years ago, and it's just exploded.

Nick VinZant 12:48

Like say you're going to make a knife or an ax. How long of a process are we talking for you to make one

Liam Hoffman 12:55

depends on what type of x. So if I'm making like a production x, it takes a lot less time than if I'm doing a custom type of X a one off type of x. So when people come to order an x from us, we have a catalog of products, there's like eight different models, for instance, that you can order. If someone comes to me and says I want this x to have this specific shape with this specific length handle, like I won't do that type of thing. So you can either order what's on my website or you can't, or go elsewhere. Because I'm not interested in doing custom types of work. But whenever I get spare time away from production, that's when I can be more creative and just make whatever I want to make in a call that like a one off type piece people would see that more of like as an art piece a collector's piece, something that's more desirable and an X like that, or a knife like that could take anywhere from not very long at all, which I would consider maybe eight hours to it could you could be talking about a 60 to 80 hour project.

Nick VinZant 13:58

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. Yeah, bring it on. What is the most important tool in your workshop?

Liam Hoffman 14:08

The forge because you can't do anything without steel being hot. There's lots of alternatives to an anvil or tongs or a hammer but there's not many alternatives to a forge which is what hits the steel up.

Nick VinZant 14:23

How many times a day or week do you think to yourself man this forge is hot?

Liam Hoffman 14:31

I'm probably at least I don't know. It's always hot the other day it was 105 degrees and and that's that's what like ambient temperature outside being 75 it's not hot where I live if I couldn't imagine if I was on the on the in a desert or down in like Texas or Florida or something. That'd be so horrible. But even in my climate where it's not that hot, it's like over 100 degrees. With humidity also on top of that in the summer and yet it's it's hot as it's horrible. You burn yourself to

Nick VinZant 15:09

like the I mean, it's getting burned something that's going to happen pretty much all the time. More than anything ever like really serious,

Liam Hoffman 15:16

huh? No, not that serious. I have all my digits and everything. But yeah, I've gotten burned really bad lots of times, just from like a spark coming off or sparks are, sparks aren't gonna hurt you, it's what's called, The most common type of burn is going to be from something called scale, which is it's a flakes of steel that come off of the workpiece while it's hot. So when steel is red hot, it is rapidly oxidizing, just like rust. But that rust is, like I said quickly, rapidly peeling off of the hot steel and it falls on to you. And that oxidation is called scale. And that scale is very hot. And it is a almost every time you forge you're going to get a scale burn.

Nick VinZant 16:04

Were you more excited or nervous when you got the call from forged in fire?

Liam Hoffman 16:10

Well, I've had multiple calls from them, the first couple I wasn't interested at all in doing because I didn't think that I was good enough to make myself look good on TV. I knew that if I was going to go on on TV unfortunate fire, I needed to be confident in myself and be ready for it. I wasn't just going to jump into it. So I had a couple of calls. The first couple seasons that they aired, and then the call that I decided to go on to the show. I was I was more excited than I was nervous. I don't get super nervous with a lot of things. And I prepared myself really well. I'm pretty logical and methodical. So like, I mean, I trained. I had all these scenarios in my head, I was like I was there to win it. I was there. I was there to not play around. So I wasn't super nervous about it. I knew what I could do. And I was just excited to try and win it. And you ultimately want it What did that kind of what did that do for your business? nothing but good. So before, before I was on the show, my business was already doing really well. I think we had like a 10 month backlog before I went on to the show. And then I went on to the show. And it's just been ridiculous ever since

Nick VinZant 17:33

what is the most durable thing you've ever cut through

Liam Hoffman 17:36

this terrible thing? I think this is I can get into this a little bit. But like a common misconception when a market is a marketing trick that knife companies or knife makers will use is to take a knife that seemingly shouldn't cut through something and then cut through that object like cutting through a nail with a knife. And I was like, Oh, well cut through a nail with a knife. And you can change how durable a blade is based on the geometry or the thicknesses and the cross section of the edge of the knife. And so what that means is that I could take a chef's knife, which is supposed to be really good at cutting tomatoes, which is a difficult thing to cut well. And I could change the angle that I sharpen it at to be able to cut through a nail. But does that mean it's going to actually work? Well as a kitchen knife? No, it's going to suck. So it's like a marketing misconception scam when you see someone cutting through some like crazy objects, so I don't have anything that I'm like, Oh, I can't believe I cut through this crazy hard object or anything like that. It's more like, Okay, if I make an axe that's designed to do this specific task, and it does that specific task. Well, that's what I'm proud of. Or if I take a chef's knife in it, I would say one thing that I was really proud of was taking a chef's knife and cutting through a tomato without holding the tomato in my hand cutting through it horizontally on a table without the tomato moving. That's a really difficult task because the knife has to be thin enough and have the right geometry to it.

Nick VinZant 19:12

This kind of segues a little bit into that how do you feel watching those infomercials on TV where they advertised knives? It's just I don't even know how to react. It's horrible. Yeah, it's just joke. Are you like what What irritates you about it? You're like, Oh, that's not the right handle. There's no way that blade can do that. Like what are you muttering to the person next to you about that infomercial?

Liam Hoffman 19:40

It's not it's just not even worth your breath. This is all just horrible. It's all wrong. It's all wrong. Yeah, it's just like for an educated consumers that. Like I said, it's like a gimmick. It looks good if we don't know. But then what do you know it's like this is just so bad in so many ways. What blacksmithing item Do you enjoy making the most? I would say axes, axes and knives. I like forging axes. And I like the finish work on knives more so like knife making high end blade smithing is not a lot of forging, it's more finished work. It's the sanding, the grinding the woodworking, the polishing the elegant shaping. Whereas axe making is primarily this, the primary skill lies in the forging, not as much the finishing. So if, if I'm talking about what I like to forge most is probably going to be an axe because it's more interesting, more difficult. A knife, not as much of a challenge to forge but it is a lot more involved in the finish work. Most Expensive knife you make or most expensive item, you make the least expensive item you make, like at least expensive acts that I make this I think around $220. And that would that's like a 12 inch long, little camping hacks. The most expensive thing that I've sold, which is actually just recently like a couple weeks ago, was a knife for $77,250. And that was a hunting small hunting type knife but it had in custom engraving work on it that was not actually done by me. It was done by a friend of mine named his Instagram name is the hand engraver. His name is Ivan Watson. And then I had a fancy handle on it. And it was one of those things where this knife was it was actually the last of this design that I was ever making. So that increased its value. My prices can range anywhere from a couple $100 to around $8,000 right now.

Nick VinZant 21:56

Last two from me, what is your favorite historical sword knife or axe? Hmm,

Liam Hoffman 22:03

I wouldn't have to put it in like a category of Persian Persian style knives from the late 1700s or mid 1800s. Those are to me the most ornate beautiful shaped, detailed knives that

Nick VinZant 22:23

that I've seen. favorite fictional one.

Liam Hoffman 22:27

I don't know I I'm not much of a fantasy knife guy. And I get a lot of requests for fantasy types of swords and knives from like video games and stuff. But I've never really never really been interested in that. So I don't think I have a favorite one.

Nick VinZant 22:43

We do have a question that says How do you feel about lightsabers?

Liam Hoffman 22:49

I feel like that would be great. If if it was real. Yeah, that'd be great. It'd be super helpful. I think in a lot of ways.

Nick VinZant 22:58

You could definitely make stuff a lot faster. Good and shit. Yeah. Yeah, I could. I could heat up stuff be great. But would that hurt your business though? Because I'd have a hard time buying a knife. If I could buy a lightsaber. I'm gonna be honest with you.

Liam Hoffman 23:12

Right? I mean, people's probably still gonna want a knife or an axe for the novelty even if they can cut a tree in half with a lightsaber. And be faster.

Nick VinZant 23:23

You are a businessman. Um, Oh, I missed this one. Do you have time for one more? Yeah. What advice would you give to a young blacksmith? Somebody just starting out?

Liam Hoffman 23:34

I would say to not lose sight of the big picture. Be persistent, do not give up so easily. And understand that suffering is just part of the process and it's going to help you in the long run.

Nick VinZant 23:49

That's all the questions I got man. Is there anything else you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Liam Hoffman 23:57

Just just constantly busy, got lots of stuff going on. I would say that if if anyone wants to find out the types of things that we're doing on a day to day basis, you can follow me on Instagram, which is Hoffman blacksmithing. or on Facebook. We have a closed Facebook group, also Hoffman blacksmithing.

Professional Arm Wrester Michael Todd

With 20 National Titles and 16 World Titles to his name, “Monster” Michael Todd is one of the best arm wrestlers of all time. We talk arm wrestling techniques, how to get really strong, broken arms and more in this episode. Then, we countdown a special arm themed Top 5.

Michael Todd: 01:08ish

Pointless: 26:03ish

Top 5: 39:35ish

http://monstermichaeltodd.com (Michael Todd Website)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCarJKBV9GEpXRHrw4bEEhHA (Michael Todd YouTube)

https://www.instagram.com/monstermichaeltodd (Michael Todd Instagram)

Interview with “Monster” Michael Todd

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, strong arms and the best body parts.

"Monster" Michael Todd 0:21

I am not genetically gifted to be predisposed to be good at armwrestling I just have a disgust for losing that most times outweighs my opponents desire to win. So I got into a lot of compromising positions and matches which is the reason I have lost over nine and a half inches range of motion my right arm, my right elbow has been fractured over 70 different times by L roll is horrible. The X rays terrific.

Nick VinZant 0:42

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is one of the greatest athletes that you might not have heard of. And he competes in a sport that we all have done at one time or another. This is professional arm wrestler, monster Michael Todd. So is this something that you set out to do? Or was this something that just happened?

"Monster" Michael Todd 1:12

I grew up in Arkansas. I actually was a martial artists first. So I dad took me to see Karate Kid. And I said I've got to take karate. So I started taking Shota current karate then I switched over to Taekwondo. But I actually thought growing up I was gonna be like a martial arts action hero guy thought that's what I was gonna do. I thought I was gonna be in movies and I was going to be kicking everybody's butt and turned out mess around in high school used to always arm wrestle my dad when I was 15 years old. I finally meeting my senior in high school, I could pretty much beat everybody. I was an English Driver's Ed and votec I was taking auto mechanics and they pointed out a guy and said that guy right there a second state. You got on a cafeteria table and meetings I usually go to this tournament of the Swain county fair 31 years ago that I've won 21 world titles 36 National trial 36 national titles enough for the year 30 plus times.

Nick VinZant 2:02

Why are you so good at it right? Are you just unnaturally strong? Is it like the lever of your arm? What Why are you good at it?

"Monster" Michael Todd 2:10

I am not genetically gifted to be predisposed to be good at armwrestling I just haven't discussed for losing that most times outweighs my opponents desire to win. So as a kid, I was pretty strong. You know, I didn't have a real good hand and risk because I didn't do a lot of manual labor. I wasn't the hate Holland. You know, country arkansan guy I was kind of, you know, more laid back chillin watching TV and stuff. So I had a strong arm. And for a long time, throughout my career, my arm was very, very strong. My head and wrist was weak. Or so I got into a lot of compromising positions and matches, which is the reason I have lost over nine and a half inches range of motion my right arm, my right elbow has been fractured over 70 different times. my elbow is horrible, the X rays terrific. But now, the last 11 years I've really focused on my hand and wrist a lot. So

Nick VinZant 2:57

you see what I mean? When I think of armwrestling I'm just thinking of my arm right? Like I've arm wrestled before, but I wouldn't ever say I know what muscles I've been using. Like what's the dominant muscles that you're using when your arm wrestling somebody

"Monster" Michael Todd 3:12

What you're trying to show right there you're trying to push sideways arm wrestling is not a pushy sport. Most people start off arm wrestling, just against her dad or friends or whatever thinking it's just push your opponent sideways. armwrestling pulling sport. So the biggest muscle you're going to use is your back. But it doesn't matter how strong your back is, if your hand and wrist isn't strong enough to support it, it won't matter. So what you want to do is you started to sit in the table hands in the center of the table, left or right. And on go you want to pull your opponent to you as quick as you can get to be you the betters and give you more leverage and then less leverage. And so if your hand and wrist isn't strong enough to support that pressure, you're in and wrestle, you open up your own arm, you expose yourself to your opponent. It's funny because people think there's so much technique involved in there is like if I take two people, I take a set of twins and I teach one how to arm wrestle. He's obviously gonna kill the other. But that doesn't mean that it's all technique and not strength. Strength is so subjective. Someone will look at a guy who's gonna make benchpress or big squat, big deadlift, like that guy strongly. You just know how to arm so you just know the technique. Though his benchpress deadlift or squat muscles are stronger than my arm wrestling muscles are highly developed.

Nick VinZant 4:15

Are you pretty strong though? and other things right? Like, obviously you're very strong arm wrestler, but are you like is your squat great is your bench. Great.

"Monster" Michael Todd 4:24

I've done a 585 squat a 605 deadlift in the 520 minutes. But I've had so many injuries right now I'm probably afford 25 minutes, probably maybe a 495 squat and probably a 550 deadlift, but I don't do those. I'm 48 years old. I've been competing for 31 years. I don't do a lot of those traditional powerlifting moves anymore. What I do is I train just one day aren't one day back one day like one day shoulders one day inside each one of those workouts I do armwrestling specific exercises.

Nick VinZant 4:55

What are some like what's an arm wrestling specific exercise,

"Monster" Michael Todd 4:59

I have a two inch thick pipe that I slide over in the bar, and I roll up weight this way down, I roll up laid back that way, outside of a pulley system, there are certainly cable a handle and an armrest and table in front of a pulley system. And I mimic armwrestling with this specific handle that's going to make it you know, use my technique which is outside top row. And I'll do that and then I'll take battle ropes and it's funny because people are looking at my battle ropes in my training circuits and like Oh, you're not doing the battle ropes, right? I'm not trying to do the battle ropes for cardio. I'm trying to do the battle rope. So it blows up my hands because they're two distinct veterans of blows and the teacher Hands up. So my circuits like it's so funny. Right? You must work out all the time. I work at about 15 minutes a day. It's just the hardest 15 minutes you've ever seen. But it worked out because it's non stop. I set a timer and I don't stop until I'm done.

Nick VinZant 5:46

But he's one of like, is your dominant hand bigger than the other one from just all the injuries or from the work or

"Monster" Michael Todd 5:54

am I right upper arm is what happens during the my left my right lower arm my forums about three quarters.

Nick VinZant 6:00

So why why is that like what did you Is it

"Monster" Michael Todd 6:04

so I got into very bad positions with my hand compromised with wrestling my arms from my hand wrist or weak getting very bad positions instead of laying the mesh go I just pulled through. for 20 years I didn't have health insurance. So I'd never looked the doctor I just had an injury and I just kept training. Eventually when I did have health insurance, my left elbow, the doctor misdiagnosed me in 2010 that I had a partially torn ligament and when it was I said I had a torn muscle when it wasn't a partially torn ligament I had a world title match and love that drove in radio power minute time limit ripped off the bone likes to match rows of the form level dislocate six inches. I come back home and have to do surgery. And while they rescue surgery like x ray my right arm. And that's what he told me I had over 70 fractures in my right elbow.

Nick VinZant 6:47

What What was that doctors face like when he saw X ray

"Monster" Michael Todd 6:50

x rayed my right arm the response to the doctors. That's the worst I've ever seen. Cannot frame that picture. But I'm a wall. Or I don't understand how you have musculature your arm your arm looks like what I would have when I would expect a 300 year old man's arm to look like

Nick VinZant 7:04

why not switch to the other arm like for armwrestling purposes,

"Monster" Michael Todd 7:09

have won 21 world titles and 36 national titles that are damn near split right down the middle about 5050 Now what that means is the left hand competitions not as stiff as the right hand competition because there's a lot more right handed people. I've never been over on them one of the world's left handed. I've won numerous world titles match titles, but I have been over on the one in the world right in the middle of all the arm wrestlers walking the face here, in the main right hand,

Nick VinZant 7:32

is there a huge difference between somebody dominant hand in their off hand Usually,

"Monster" Michael Todd 7:37

it varies from person to person. What has happened over the years and how I got started on wrestling left hand was in 1994. I went to the national championships in Windsor locks, Connecticut, and the first time they ever had left handed in the nationals and left hand was on Friday. Right? It was on Saturday. Well, I couldn't stay to watch people on rest without me. So I'm gonna head into the left. And that's how I got started on the left.

Nick VinZant 7:58

When you when you look at a lot of people who you know professionals like yourself who are at the very top, is there usually something like a physical trait that they share besides just pure strength? Right? Like, is there a leverage thing like the forearm is shorter than the right i think he I don't know enough about anatomy to actually ask this question.

"Monster" Michael Todd 8:18

Question the best way I can. Normally, the elite guys gonna have big strong dominant hands. I don't have a massive hand. I have a thick, thick and meaty can training it but it's not a massive here. I'm six foot three, but I don't really have long leavers, right. Devon Larry, who's six six has got like 6869 liters. The longer lever is better. A lot of people think they're shorter arms better the longer lever. Normally the longer lever is better if you know how to use it. Right. But yeah, big forearms, big hands, wrists. You don't see a whole lot. I mean, I'm a guy who does a lot of traditional weight training. A lot of arm wrestlers just do armwrestling specific stuff. Now if you go to Eastern Europe, which is where they're very, very strong, and Eastern Europe, and some of the top competition in the world is from there, especially under the 220 pound weight limit. They pretty much dominate armwrestling once you get the super heavyweights, the top 10 in the world, five of us are from North America. So but we're all older, like I'm 48 746 30 petards 48. Dave take into this 47 agents in his 40s. I mean, now my training partner Cory West, we call him the gorilla. He's my height, maybe a little bit taller, and he's born and 20 pounds. I got to be able to reach down and grab the padlock and just snap it off his bare hand. He's a free

Nick VinZant 9:38

man. Now you guys are all older is that because of like old man strength basically, or just experience

"Monster" Michael Todd 9:45

a long time? We don't really have like Cory is the one who just turned 31 last week. I feel like he's the future specifically for North American armwrestling but he very well could be random on the world. At some point. He's just he's a man. Massive, massive human being. And he's just, he loves it. He tore his left bicep deep super fit last year bone, Dave Chafee and Idaho. And prior to that, he was training he was consistent, but he wasn't hungry. He was patient about his his progress. Now he's hungry. He wants to hunt down everybody. That kid is, watch out for him, he's he's gonna be something special.

Nick VinZant 10:19

This is my knowledge about weightlifting and things like that, right. But it's much different, like somebody negative strength is so good, right? Like, you can't maybe not be able to push something off of you. But you can keep it from coming down. Like how difficult is that to get somebody's arm to move in a way that they don't want it to move?

"Monster" Michael Todd 10:39

Well, that's what's interesting about armwrestling versus any other traditional weight training, strength, sport, whatever, you're going to get someone else's power, right. So you're applying a certain force, they're applying a certain certain force. And it really comes down to who's strong in these specific areas. So at a world class level, we all know the techniques it comes down to who's stronger, but it could be who's stronger in their, in their pinky muscle or their you know, first finger their thought we just depends on whether you can get that that. So I'm an outside arm wrestler, I'm a top row or open top row, whatever. Some people are trying to get to buy them real hard on you gets turned into a book. And I'm trying to open their hand and open the rest up. So it's just those counter pressures? It's, it's a lot of fun. Is it physical chess?

Nick VinZant 11:24

How long like when you're doing a specific? Is it like, I know you go through rounds, but like, how long is the average round going to last?

"Monster" Michael Todd 11:33

Okay, so most matches are pretty quick. I mean, 1020 seconds or less. I'm the guy that has the multiple minute long matches, like I've had a 10 minute match before I had a seven minute match to who. And then I was like round two or five rounds. So I'm known for having those very, very long war is brutal. And that's why I say my disgust for losing outweighs my opponents desire to win when they say go if I can keep you from killing me. That is my master lose after that.

Nick VinZant 11:58

It's just a growing sport. Is this a diminishing sport? Is it staying the same? like where do you see the future of arm wrestling going,

"Monster" Michael Todd 12:05

though, for years, like I said, I started in 1990. We missed out on the 1996 Olympics, we were supposed to be demonstrations for we got beat up by women's beach volleyball, obviously, you see why? And then we never really got another shot at it. You know, we were at we were in the Goodwill Games, done a few different things like that. I do think it's gonna follow a similar path to UFC, hopefully, and I'll tell you why it's growing. Now, while we're probably in the biggest growth of armwrestling ever, although there has been on you know, ESPN, or it's been on a was the ABCs wild world of sports, or over the top, all those different times where armwrestling could have taken off. It's because of COVID traditional sports were not being seen. So people went to the internet and they found arm wrestling. In arm wrestling right now is probably in the biggest growth curve has ever had. And that's why my wife and I, we were three weeks into a six month tour across the United States in a wrapped RV. So we pull up in this wrapped RV that screaming picture me on the side of it. We put up the arm wrestling table, we just take on all comers. So three weeks into six months, we're gonna hit all 48 states.

Nick VinZant 13:06

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it. What's your favorite pump up music to get ready?

"Monster" Michael Todd 13:15

My favorite pump up music I like I feel like a monster from skillet.

Nick VinZant 13:18

That's pretty good. Right? But do you like it? Because your nickname is monster? Or do you just like the song

"Monster" Michael Todd 13:26

a little bit about a little bit about it just gets me fired up about it.

Nick VinZant 13:29

Who is the Michael Jordan of armwrestling. All Time all time. And if you say to you,

"Monster" Michael Todd 13:36

greatest of all time is always going to be Jon Corzine. He dominated in the era of armwrestling that will never exist again. So he basically went 20 plus years with very few losses took on people from all across the world and different weight classes didn't matter. He was a six foot two 120 pound guy most of his career. And this word is not it's evolved so much since then no one will ever be able to know we'll be able to go that long without losing, knowing to be able to take because they're real freaks out there. Now. I would, I would say that I'm among the greatest of all time because I've won every have won the World Title, every professional league that's existed in the last 1015 years. I have taken the losses over the years, but jomres is definitely the greatest of all time. Probably one of the best ambassadors to sports ever seen is definitely from Canada, the 20 year Special Forces badass dude. And then I'm, you know, I've done my part. I've traveled the world. I've done a lot of things and had a lot of fun. But there's there's a lot of Legends out there. It's just an honor for me to be considered among the best that's ever done it so that's cool. Now Can

Nick VinZant 14:40

this be this can just be a full time living for most professionals?

"Monster" Michael Todd 14:44

No, it cannot. Who knows it might in the future. With the social media platform with YouTube, Instagram, all that stuff, a person now could build a brand big enough to where they could live full time through, you know, through YouTube money. As sponsors or whatever, just sort of armwrestling, I may have made a half million dollars in 31 years, I couldn't work. I have had an amazing life, full of life experiences to have a lot of interesting places. But a lot of interesting people made a lot of amazing friends. But as far as you know, the monetary side of the sport I might make for you to get out here. So

Nick VinZant 15:22

still, as long I mean, man, I'd rather make that doing what I liked. And, you know,

"Monster" Michael Todd 15:27

yeah, I mean, I'm blessed right now with this tour, right? This tour is really helping us out. And with the connections and people meeting, you know, there's different opportunities that are being presented, there may end up being I actually got called the other day, there's a reality TV show that was put out, and it's the first seasons gonna hit a lot of success with it. And then I had like me to be involved in the second season, which the celebrity edition, I'm like, oh, you're considered me a celebrity. Alright. I thought that was the weird right there, they still consider me a celebrity with the wind. So you never know, man. I'm just we're not promised tomorrow. I want to live my best day to day and do everything I can to get to traveling, I say to my wife, who's my best friend and my two dogs, and I'm blessed right now.

Nick VinZant 16:08

So what do you like about it? Right? Is it the competition, or the winning or just the overall armwrestling in and of itself?

"Monster" Michael Todd 16:16

Well, here's the deal. I've been doing it for 31 years, I've done it for two thirds of my life, basically. So it's just part of me now. It's something that when I was younger, I fell in love with a one on one. I mean, the thrill of victory is amazing. Hate, hate the way it feels to lose those. So that's what, that's why I say my disgust for losing weight, my desire to win because I just hate the way that feels. But I think a lot of is just, you know, the camaraderie, the family the I took my first loss in three years recently in Dubai. And that took so much pressure off me. Because with social media with YouTube, if you take a loss, even in practice, people just tearing you apart, you know. And now, I mean, I took my first professional loss and three years. Yes, I'm hungry to avenge that loss. But right now, I'm just enjoying the fact that I don't have all the pressure. Now I'm still the who champion still the yo yo champion for the arm warships, I still hold several world titles, because it was a non title match. But it was a match that was important to me, you know, come out on top that day. But now with this tour and everything that we're doing, I'm just blessed to be in a position to where I can go out. I can armrests on half on.

Nick VinZant 17:29

When do you generally know that like you've got you've got you've got a guy

"Monster" Michael Todd 17:33

who they say go and I don't get into like I got your ass. It's not always gonna be that way. But most of the time, if I can stop the match, I'm gonna. I'm a very I'm very good at that. As long as I'm in the match, as long as there's not a huge discrepancy in strings, as long as the string is close. I'm almost always

Nick VinZant 17:52

Is it pretty weight dependent, right? Like somebody comes in and this is 125 pound person like, this isn't even a competition for me. But then somebody else could come in and 500 pounds a night you got no shot? Is it weight dependent at all kind of like boxing or

"Monster" Michael Todd 18:08

now the like my stepson. 270 pounds. He's 17 national champion. He does all the same techniques. I know. Obviously, he can't be he because he's 170 pounds. So in that aspect, yes, strength, I mean, the weight. But the strength is not always determined by how much you weigh, right? Like, I'm a 270 pound guy between 260 to 80. Just depends on how much take me. But my string is going to be the same now as it would be if I was 300. Probably, in most, like I said, my training partner for under 20 pounds and he's an animal. But you know, I keep my bank pretty hard so that the gods 500 pounds I'm not worried about it is not going to change the outcome. As long as this handle rested in front enough to stop my pronation. Or my crack that respect. Sounds good.

Nick VinZant 18:57

How many people's arms Have you broken?

"Monster" Michael Todd 19:00

I've never broken anyone's arm. I had a horrible God's hand when he broke his arm. I didn't break and I was holding on to him and he dove in his arms now. So it's very easy. It's sad. But if you get the bad position and you put the right amount of force, your arm will snap. And I was just holding on to this dude, kind of train him and he just don't come outside moving inside moving into his shoulder in front of his hand and snap his arm.

Nick VinZant 19:23

Is it when that happens? Like is it quick like that? Or is it one of those things like, like I bet like a bad board. You can feel it going and then it goes.

"Monster" Michael Todd 19:31

Sometimes you'll try to stop a match when you see him get into a bad position. And sometimes you just can't stop it before it snaps. All right. This

Nick VinZant 19:38

one's I think this one's gonna be pretty obvious, but if it's not, go ahead and tell me best arm wrestling scene in a movie.

"Monster" Michael Todd 19:45

I don't know if you remember the movie plot where the dude's wrist snaps you know, years ago and my wife's gonna tell you it's gonna be the one from what is it the vampire movies? What is it honey? Twilight? Fly light yeah when seems to be party Breaking Dawn Part Two. She just came to tell me she heard she are in the interview where Bella gets her strength and she she beats the dude over the stone and breaks the stone she pins in. I don't know what was gonna be obvious what was what did you think?

Nick VinZant 20:15

I was? I guess I phrased it incorrectly I was saying I was gonna say best arm wrestling movie which obviously has to be right.

"Monster" Michael Todd 20:22

That's a movie would definitely be over the top. They've made a new one. That was like a Korean movies. I've watched on a plane called champion who wasn't bad. It wasn't bad and they've made a new movie. It's like a female armwrestling thing you know, things got dot Jones who's one of the best female wrestlers of all time, and I cannot remember the name of it golden or maybe maybe go norm and something new I think I don't know what it's been what platform has been released on. But over the tops. Definitely the best arm wrestling movie and I actually enjoyed it. I watched it because even armrests I was just a semester slow and faint when I was thinking like 1984 or something like that when it came out 8586

Nick VinZant 20:58

is it? Is it realistic in any way? Like what do you think about the realism of over the top?

"Monster" Michael Todd 21:04

Well, a lot of the scenes were a real movie. I mean, they did desktop tournament conferencing actually on that tractor truck. So they went around filming, and Marvin Cohen's a buddy of mine, he's the one who did all the products that will get that whole thing going. So a lot of is very real. Because those things were actually taken out of the actual tournament.

Nick VinZant 21:20

There's this meme. I think I can ask this question directly. Have you seen this meme of Arnold and Carl Weathers where they're like locking hands like that? redditor Yeah. Who went? Who do you think would have won that arm wrestling?

"Monster" Michael Todd 21:34

Man. I don't know. I met Arnold. I've never met Carl. I'm guessing Carl probably has a bigger hand. Now. Obviously Arnold had the bigger arm with Carl had a bigger hand and bigger wrist. I'd say Carl might be

Nick VinZant 21:49

he was a professional athlete, too. He's a professional football player, wasn't he?

"Monster" Michael Todd 21:53

I don't know what he was. He just he always had an amazing physique. You know him and Rocky and I don't know if you ever saw action Jackson.

Nick VinZant 21:59

Yeah, dude, I've seen x. Talk to me about x Jackson, man, but

"Monster" Michael Todd 22:06

I got watched every be rated martial arts movie. I don't know if you saw best of the best. Or the last dragon. I got the glow.

Nick VinZant 22:15

Okay, so your nickname obviously monster Michael Todd is the best nickname. Who else do you think though has a great nickname?

"Monster" Michael Todd 22:22

Oh, man. Well, no limits, Devin, Larrett. You know, when I did meet him in 2018 and all the hype leading up to that match. I started hashtag and I'm your limit everywhere, right? And after I paid him in round five, I'm like, limit right but no limits. What it is is he's a massive human being he's for me. He's six foot six. He's got very long labor's and you've heard the adage, lever big enough you can move the world in. He is that guy. He is genetically gifted to be great in this sport. And he is he's a professor of what he does. He's very, very good. He picks everything apart. So no limits make sense for him? Because if you take a big bad, strong version, that dude he almost has no limits, right?

Nick VinZant 23:07

Why is it? Why is it so important? How big somebody's hand is specifically the hand.

"Monster" Michael Todd 23:12

But if you have a long fingers, you get to wrap farther around your opponent, right? So it's about control. So if I can take your hand and control where your hand goes, it doesn't matter if your weakest link I can handle the risk of I can take that control that doesn't matter who your boss is how big your back is. I'm taking the way that the spot that all that power translates through

Nick VinZant 23:32

last time that you ran into somebody whether like a celebrity somebody that we have known or just a random person, where you were like, oh, wow, they could they could they got it.

"Monster" Michael Todd 23:42

It has been a while. You do do you do run into those people that like, if you talk to Devin, Larry, he says Shaq has the most potential anyone's ever armwrestling but Shaq's seven foot two and his hand is enormous, you know? Yeah. And that guy grabbed odd teach him how to arm wrestle. He just said his natural power was ridiculous. What's weird is you say you're doing a beat the champion, you're doing a armwrestling thing in a fitness Expo. Those fitness models are really strong for some reason. We're like, they're way stronger than bodybuilders most rock climbers are always strong mechanics, carpenters, pipe fitters, anyone who just works with a hands.

Nick VinZant 24:19

That's really all the questions I got, man, what's kind of coming up next for you.

"Monster" Michael Todd 24:22

We'll be on the road for the Northwest portion. That's gonna be about a four week tour. Hopefully we're collaborating Brian Shaw, you know, we're talking about sauceman stuff with him getting at least 684 100 plus pounds. So that'd be a great guy to get on the table. And he's got world class grip strength. So if I could teach him how to armrests, I think he can be pretty good. And we've brightened up the South Dakota go to Mount Rushmore. I've never got to go there. And that just so happens. We'll be there right in the middle stages. So probably take the wrap up. So we got we bought an h2 Hummer that we're about to get wrapped to match the RV. So we pulled the Hummer behind it. So some of the places we can't get to we'll just take the Hummer in, and we had our massive table thrown off the back end. So I figured we'll take The army down to Sturgis, do a beat the champion gets some bikers. That should be fun. And then we'll go over to Yellowstone have a great time, we got to finish up next month tour. Stan, everybody who's one of the strong bodybuilders ever. He's training john Jones for his next fight. So next time you're in Albuquerque, come in for a workout, some good workout image, john Jones and maybe getting a cage around john john living in a black kick. So that's the second tour. And then we got four more legs. I'll be at that half for Eddie Hall fight in Jacksonville set the bright teen so I'll be that'll be part of our MidSouth tour. So I'll go go do some stuff The Undertaker, then I'll go to Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and up in Jacksonville, do some stuff there and come back to Atlanta, maybe have a practice. And then we'll fly back into the man October 2 third for the charity weekend event.

Latex Model Kitty Malone

For Kitty Malone wearing latex is both a transformation and a mystery. As soon as she puts it on she feels sexy, powerful and confidant, while her clients can only wonder what’s underneath her skintight clothes and hood. We talk wearing latex, normalizing fetishes, interesting requests and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things We’d Like To Be a Model For.

Latex Kitty Malone: 01:40ish

Pointless: 38:29ish

Top 5: 50:59ish

https://twitter.com/latexkittyxxx (Latex Kitty Malone Twitter)

http://latexkittyxxx.com (Latex Kitty Malone Website)

https://www.instagram.com/latexkitty_ (Latex Kitty Malone Instagram)

Interview with Latex Model Kitty Malone

Nick VinZant 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode latex and modeling,

Kitty Malone 0:19

the way it makes you feel, it makes you feel really sexy, powerful, confident, horny. I think a lot of men, when they wear latex, they might want to do the makeup and the lipstick and the high heels and the big boobs and they want to transform themselves. And that's the greatest thing about latex, it's you can transform yourself into someone completely different. So when I put my head down on my latex, and some guys wants, you know, SBH small penis humiliation, I'm up for that, man. I'm like, that is a fucking small debt, blah, blah, blah, what am I gonna do with that, whereas in real life, I just be polite,

Nick VinZant 0:59

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a professional model and an industry that is both very popular and very secretive. There's a good chance that somebody you know, is interested in latex and rubber. But despite how popular it is, there's still this idea that it's weird. That's a stigma that our first guest is trying to fight back against. This is latex model, Kitty Malone. So how did you get started in this? Were you a model who got into latex? Or did you like latex and then get into modeling

Kitty Malone 1:47

No, so it was a boyfriend. So I always loved cosplays or dressing up being somebody else a bit of an alter ego, especially in the bedroom. And then a boyfriend was into latex while an ex boyfriend was into latex. And I really wasn't into it at all. I just thought, I don't know the material or whatever. And he gave me a rubber 55 latex hood and just said put it on try it. So I did I put it on. And I thought wow, this makes me look completely different. Like I don't even recognize myself. This is very sexy. I loved the feel. I liked being somebody else and how it made me look like somebody else. So yeah, it all started with a hood. And then little bits of latex started coming in, you know, I started shopping for latex buying more latex, and then just dressing in latex, you know, at home in the bedroom, and then decided, well, could I make a thing of this? And I did.

Nick VinZant 2:56

So what is it about it that makes you enjoy it is a sexual thing I'm assuming, right?

Kitty Malone 3:04

Yeah, it's like I said before, it's the way it makes you feel it makes you feel really sexy, powerful, confident, horny. Just the whole getting ready for the putting on the makeup because the hoods are so pretty, but I think that it really emphasizes on your eyes and your lips. So I do spend time making my you know doing my makeup so that the hood brings out the eyes and then just getting dressed into the latex and then the finished product is all shiny and you just feel awesome it's just the feel the smell the way it looks everything so what will people generally have sex in the latex or is this more of something that you do before? No no in the latex so I mean I couldn't speak for men but I think they find it as well when you put it on it's the feel the smell how it feels against your skin how it feels against certain areas makes you feel horny everything that you well more or less everything that you buy in latex has got zips in the you know the important areas. So yeah, latex is for having sex in and some people get confused with that. They're like, do you really have sex in it? And you're like, of course you do. You swear you get hot you get you know, it's like the the feeling of it. It's it's just brilliant. Now is this is this a popular thing? are more people into it this than I would think I'd say it's more popular than you'd think for men. Not so much girls. So a lot of men ask me, How do I get my girlfriend into it? And there are a lot of men that wear it and want their girlfriends to wear it and they enjoy wearing it. But their girlfriends don't like them wearing it. But with regards to poppy It is very popular, but it's more of a not spoken thing. Like you don't go down the pub with your mates and say, Yeah, I love wearing latex. They go, what are your freak? It's kind of like that. Not a lot of people would admit to liking latex. But I think that a lot of people do love well would like to or try it or haven't tried it or Yeah, I think it's popular.

Nick VinZant 5:26

Why do you think that is, though, that it's a popular thing, but yet people don't want to talk about it.

Kitty Malone 5:31

Yeah, because it's like the GIMP look for men. Uh, you know, I think that a lot of men that were a very submissive, a lot of my clients want to be my slave. They want to be a gimpy so. So it's obviously their submissive side. And you know that when you speak about latex, it is like, all that's a bit weird or is weird. You know, a lot of my family and friends know what I do. And they know I wear latex, but they don't discuss it. It's just something that they just don't want to discuss, because it's weird. It's BDSM it's bondage. But it doesn't necessarily have to be BDSM bondage is just a fetish. Just like people would have a foot fetish or a nylon fetish, or, you know, any fetish. It's just latex, but I think it's just people view it as weird. But what's great is that a lot of you know, famous models are starting to wear latex. You know, Kim Kardashian is wearing latex, Lady Gaga is wearing latex. So but that's in a fashion sense, rather than a sexual, you know, sexual thought pleasure fetish kind of thing.

Nick VinZant 6:45

Now does do other kinds of fetishes and kinks go along with wearing latex or is it pretty much just?

Kitty Malone 6:51

Yeah, I think that if you wear latex, you're involved in the fetish scene. So a lot of people have different fetishes. And they, you know, I can I do Skype bookings, custom videos. And the requests I get are obviously for their fetish. So it could be nylon, it could be butt plugs, or, you know, they want to do that they want to do it. With me giving instructions. I think that it's just everything goes with latex, every fetish goes with latex, I think a lot of men, when they wear latex, they want to dress as a rubber doll. So they might want to do the makeup and the lipstick, and the high heels and the big boobs, and they want to transform themselves into a rubber doll. And that's the greatest thing about latex, it's you can transform yourself into someone completely different. So a lot of guys transform themselves into a rubber doll. And you wouldn't even know that if they were a guy or a girl. And that's the best thing about latex.

Nick VinZant 7:55

Is there a difference between latex and rubber?

Kitty Malone 7:59

I think that with regards to rubber. A lot of people use the word rubber when they're talking about latex, like I use the word rubber. But I think that it's more sexier, like I'm going to put my rubber on rather than latex. Because obviously, with regards to what I do, it's sexy, and I haven't you know, so when I say I'm going to put my rubber on it's it's sexier. But rubber is really rubber products as molded products, like the dildos rather than latex is a sheet of material.

Nick VinZant 8:32

Is it expensive, it would be expensive,

Kitty Malone 8:35

very expensive. I mean, you can buy cheap latex outfits from China. Whereas obviously you can buy lots of cheap stuff from China, but it's just crap. It's just it rips, it doesn't sit well. So if you're buying latex, the price will probably represent the the quality of the garment. So you're paying for say one of my hoods that I have. They're about 100 pounds per hood. The ones that have the ponytails or the pigtails, you're talking 120 if they're tailored and designed, it could go up to sort of 130 pounds per hood. And I have roughly around 30 to 40 hoods.

Nick VinZant 9:21

Oh my gosh.

Kitty Malone 9:23

And yeah, a cat suit. You're talking sort of 300 to 350 pounds. I have around 10 cat suits, then there's corsets heels, you know, latex, brows and cardigans and dresses, not cardigans, you can edit that out because you don't get coated with anything tight fitting, you know anything that's rubber is you know of good quality is going to cost a lot of money. I've just bought a course there. And I think that costs me about 400 pounds.

Nick VinZant 9:58

Wow and for for a year. Audience a pound is roughly double that you have an American dollar. So we're talking like 800 bucks. Yeah, but more than that, probably but man, whoa, yeah, that is expensive. Now do you have to? Does it has to be is that because it has to be custom? Because it's so tightened and like everybody's body is a little bit different? Or can I go to like the the latex store and get a medium?

Kitty Malone 10:23

Now it's all the same pricing, depending on the size, it's just I guess, latex is expensive.

Nick VinZant 10:31

So how did you know when did you make the choice to become to do this professionally?

Kitty Malone 10:35

What I've always been like quite sexual, and Randy and like quite a show off, I guess, as in like, hair, I don't mind going on camera and showing off and doing all of this kind of stuff. So I started coming through adult work. And just going on, on my days off logging in, in my latex. And I guess there's not many latex girls doing that. When I started. There certainly wasn't there was lots of girls that would slip into their lingerie and they would come You know, whereas I was more of a fetish model. So I used to be work was really busy because people hadn't seen this. So they were like, Oh my god, this is something different. Very fetish, very naughty. And then I got a lot of men on that wanted to be slaves and subs and do naughty things. And I was their mistress. And they wanted instructions. So I became very busy doing that. And I was working full time, and then got made redundant and thought, Well, I'm going to start doing this full time. I wonder if it can work. Got a website, social media, obviously get your following up. And that's how it all started to be honest. You get followers, you get regular clients, then it's private Skype calls. And then

Nick VinZant 11:57

yeah, it went from there. Like what do you get? Do when you do a custom video or one of these Skype calls? Like what is the person? Is it usually a man who's requesting this? Or is it usually a woman who's requesting this? Oh, man. Oh, man. Pretty much all men. Yeah. What like what do they usually want?

Kitty Malone 12:15

Well, most of its goi, so jerk off instructions me telling them how to jerk off. And then they get to request outfits. So they'll say can you wear this particular hood? Can you wear this particular outfit? Can you maybe do a nurse scenario? Can you do but it's more or less? You know, the porn industry, I think because now it's free. You don't need to pay, you can just jump on Pornhub search whatever you want. And there it is. I think that the way the porn industry is going now is that you can you can get really up close and personal to your favorite models. With regards to only fans, you can chat to them. Whereas you never used to be able to do that. You can request a video and say can you say my name and it's person personalized to them? So I'm saying hi, john, how are you? You know, this is your video, your personal video and I'm going to get really dirty for you. And you're going to take out your cock and you're going to do this and you know, it's only a 30 minute video but instead of going on Pornhub and searching I'm literally you're literally talking to me it's like right now I'm talking to them kind of thing instructing them. I think that's the way the world's going with custom videos.

Nick VinZant 13:33

How do you feel about that? Right? Because now this is kind of maybe before you were doing it in front of a camera and there's kind of like, but now it's a real person like you're doing this for someone does that does How do you feel about like that? Do you like that? More? Do you like that? Less? Like what do you think about the idea that now you're doing this for john smith? Yeah,

Kitty Malone 13:56

I love doing personal videos because you know, some of them send me a script so I have to not read from a script but obviously they will do scenarios positions they want me to get into and I will literally be talking to them rather than the videos that you know that I'm posting on my only fans is is just a ray of light naughtiness, I guess or you know, new outfit new hood. In my latex. I do a lot of smoking fetish videos. I love doing them this you know, I used to, like I said to I started off with coming on Adult work. Now I don't get the time to do that. Because all my business or my work is doing these custom videos for everybody that they're so popular. I'm just so busy with them. And it's nice because I can take my time recording. I can have fun. They then get a great finished edited video from latex kitty that they can keep forever. Obviously they can't share it, put it on any websites and make money for it because it's got their name all over it. Um, but I love doing them absolutely love doing them. When you're doing this kind of all the time does that then does that take away from your personal life in

Nick VinZant 15:08

the sense that like, you know, anytime I think once something becomes a job, it becomes less enjoyable outside of that. Right? Like, do you still? Is this something you still participate in your personal time?

Kitty Malone 15:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do it during the day. And sometimes, obviously, if I've done quite a lot of custom videos, or if I've had a few Skype calls, and they've been intense, then yeah, I'm like, you know, don't want to worry, I sometimes need a week off or, you know, a few days off to just sort of get away from the latex. But I'd say, even when I walk past the room that I store my latex in, and I get the smell, I'm like, Oh, that smells good. And I love cleaning it and washing it and making it look good. So I never seem to get tired of it. To be honest, I do get exhausted with you know, with the messages and the constant chat that I you know that with regards to emails and stuff that I get, but that's fine. That's all part of the job, when you'd have that in a full time job, right? You'd have emails and stuff and inquiries coming in. But with regards to my loyal fans, I love chatting to them. And I think they love it that they can reach out to me and I, you know, I say to them, a guy a couple of weeks ago was going through a bad time, you know, I'm here to chat if you need someone to chat to just, you know, reach out to me, I don't mind chatting. So it's more of a like a personal thing as well, rather than, you know, I can't be there for everybody, obviously, but my loyal fans that you know, that have stuck with me since the beginning eight years ago, I've become really good friends with them.

Nick VinZant 16:45

Will you ever do things in person?

Kitty Malone 16:47

Well, yeah, lots of people would obviously love me to do things in person in real time, and meats and things like that. And I did do that, but I found it. They get too attached. You know, and it then becomes I just didn't like that I'd rather keep it sort of virtual, where I'm home and in, you know, safe. To be honest, I don't want to put myself out there to people that think because I wear latex, they can then meet me tie me up with me and spit on me. And, you know, whatever. I mean, one day, I might do that, but it would be as distressed rather than as, you know, people just fucking me kind of thing. And, you know, a lot of people do want real time Mr. Sessions, so maybe one day I will explore that area and go around fucking other people as in fucking men than rather than fucking me.

Nick VinZant 17:43

That seems like the natural evolution, right, in a way, doesn't it? Well, I say I just progressed to that. Right?

Kitty Malone 17:50

Yeah. I'd say 99.9% of my clients are all slots and just want to be fucked. They don't want to fuck me. They just want me to fuck them. And I think that's the way we're going. And I think that men shouldn't be ashamed of that. It doesn't necessarily mean they're gay, bisexual, whatever. It just means they want to have fun. They want to, you know, have some of what we're having. And why not? Oh, is

Nick VinZant 18:13

it good to ask you? Oh, like one of those custom clips? Like, how much would you generally charge for a custom clip?

Kitty Malone 18:18

Well, I'm obviously going to speak in pounds. So then you can like, yeah, so it's 65 pounds? For a 13 minute video.

Nick VinZant 18:27

It's about 120 bucks. I feel like that's low. Is that low? I don't know. I thought it would be more expensive than that. For some reason. Maybe. Because the latex is so expensive, expensive.

Kitty Malone 18:39

Yeah, but I think you'd pay more if I think people would pay more if it was me with somebody else. So if I was fucking somebody else, but because I'm so low, and you know, it's more or less, just me. It's 65 pounds. Someone else said to me, that's a bit cheap. So maybe I should put my prices up. But, you know, I don't want to like scare people off. And yeah, I'm busy at the moment. It's working at the moment. But 65 pounds obviously I have the latex, it's a big outlay when you're buying outfits, obviously. But then when you have it, it's a collection. And then yeah, it's but it is time consuming. You know, you film it, you edit it. You've got to get ready. You've got to get set up. You've got to but it's fun. So yeah, maybe next year I'll look at maybe putting my prices up but i do i do i too. The prices do vary depending on what people want. Like

Nick VinZant 19:33

how long it is and stuff.

Kitty Malone 19:35

Yeah, how long they might want it double you know, for example, smoking video, they want me just make seven cigarettes or something and then I'm going to put in the price of the cigarettes. I'm not going to be buying the cigarettes and having that come out of my budget. And then you know, if someone wants me to pump my pussy till its massive enjoy. Well, that takes an hour. So I'm going to put that in there because I'm not doing that in my own time while I'm doing my housework, walking around with a pussy pump attached dinner.

Nick VinZant 19:58

You know Will you just wear latex around the house just randomly? Yeah. You ever go well, people go outside and like just walk around?

Kitty Malone 20:08

Well, we go to events and people walk around at events and sort of, you know, London fetish weekend and stuff. But I live in a place where I really wouldn't want to go out in latech. Because I think I'd get too much attention. Like, if I went for dinner, I'd wear a pair of latex leggings with a pair of heels, for example, and you wouldn't get looked at because it's just leggings. Obviously, the hood, I wouldn't wear the hood out, because that would be a bit freaky, you know, freakish for people to look at. But yeah, latex leggings, or, you know, if you're doing a photoshoot in public, I don't see that there's a problem in wearing full latex. I personally like head to toe in rubber. I like the full cat suit, the forehead, no skin, use your imagination, you're completely enclosed. And I think that's really hot.

Nick VinZant 20:59

I think the thing that would stop me from doing it is just like, it feels like it would be hot and uncomfortable.

Kitty Malone 21:05

Nice. Not a lot of people, you can buy latex, which is chlorinated, so it's basically easy to put on. And it doesn't sort of stick to your skin and it's more comfortable. But I don't chlorinate my latex. So I use a dressing aid. And then I wear the latex, it sticks to me. But it's not uncomfortable. You'd be surprised how comfortable it is, once you put it on now once you put on your for latex, and maybe you then add a corset, and then you add a collar, and then you add maybe your heels and a hood, maybe two hoods that can become really restricted. But that's the fun of it. It's been restrictive. It's sweating in it, it's being uncomfortable. You know, and that's what I didn't get, obviously, when I first got into latex when that, you know, my ex boyfriend got me into it, I thought well, isn't it going to be uncomfortable? And then I tried it. And if you get a good quality cat suit, that's, you know, nice and comfortable, nice and thin. It's brilliant. It feels fabulous.

Nick VinZant 22:15

How much different is his latex kitty? From your, from your, from your personality? Do you feel like you go through a transformation? Are you pretty much just accentuating a side of yourself?

Kitty Malone 22:29

Yeah, when I put the hood on and the latex, I think I become a completely different person to what I am every day. Totally. Like, yeah, it's completely different. I think I even speak differently when I'm latex kitties or when I'm my normal self, but then I think people do when they're on cam or recording videos or, you know, we obviously you do the job does your does your voice change to everyday life to when you're interviewing or I try

Nick VinZant 22:59

to sound smarter, but I don't think it actually works very well. I tried to sound like a little deeper. But pretty much I feel like I just come off. No, not not so much. But then I've done it so long that honestly I don't even notice anymore. Which one would you say though is your? So I'm a big comic book fan. This may make sense to know what he may make sense to everybody. But there's this argument about like, well, who's the real person? Is Batman? The real personality of Bruce Wayne? Or is Bruce Wayne? The real personality? Like which one would you say do you think is your real personality latex? Kitty? Are you in everyday life?

Kitty Malone 23:39

Um, I mean, like I said, I think that I would 100% say that I changed when I'm in the latex and everything. But it is a bit of me. Like I said, I've always been a bit of a I wouldn't say slapped. I'd say I've always enjoyed sex. So therefore, for example, when I'm even chatting to someone that you know, I get cigarettes delivered to me that I shouldn't probably you probably couldn't say this, but whatever. I even flirt with everyone, you know, I'm a flirt. I'm a bit of a you know, a tease. I've always been a bit of a tease. So even when I'm chatting to a guy or you know, it's in a restaurant or in a pub is I'm always been a bit of a flirt a bit of a you know, chatty, flirty, which is kitty completely. So yeah, I'd say half and half.

Nick VinZant 24:27

That's about that makes sense. I understand that

Kitty Malone 24:30

looks wise completely different. Whereas personality still filled the slot I can be a filthy slot in real life, you know, even when I'm out in the pub as myself. So yeah, but when I you know, go on cam and I've got a guy who wants to be humiliated and stuff, I can be a bitch and that, you know, the latex brings out the bitchy me whereas in real life, I probably wouldn't be able to do that. So when I put my head down on my latex and some guys wants, you know, SBH small penis humiliation And I'm up for that, man. I'm like, that is a fucking small deck bla bla bla, what am I gonna do with that, whereas in real life, I just be polite Brits are polite, we are polite people, but I just couldn't be horrible to anybody. And it's taken time for me to get used to be in horrible to people when I'm latex kitty because it feels it felt really uncomfortable. But now it's what they want. I get that they want to be humiliated. They want to be called a piece to share. You know, so I'm down with that, but only as kitty not as myself.

Nick VinZant 25:33

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Okay. Favorite color of latex?

Kitty Malone 25:43

Definitely black. I think it's gonna be the same for most people. It's sexier, it's like, like stockings or black. You know, it's just black is a sexy color. And it's shiny. And so when you've got four black latex on and it's it's shiny, it's it just looks awesome. So yeah, Black is definitely my favorite color.

Nick VinZant 26:09

What's your least favorite?

Kitty Malone 26:12

I'd say green, like a really like green. I just don't understand green like mint green. I love nurse green. I love but I just have never really fancied green.

Nick VinZant 26:24

I can see green being like strange. Pink. Yeah, for some reason. I feel like pink would be a weird color. Oh, I like pink, pink.

Kitty Malone 26:34

Pink rubber dough. It's kind of cute. I have sort of some fuchsia pink and some baby pink. It's a bit like when you go out and buy clothes. You think girls would wear a pink dress girls would wear a sexy black dress, or not necessarily would wear a green dress?

Nick VinZant 26:52

Is there a difference for people who like somebody might distinction or whatever word that you want to use? Like for somebody who maybe just wears the latex bodysuit and doesn't wear the hood? versus somebody who wears the hood only?

Kitty Malone 27:04

Yeah, I wouldn't just wear a herd only I think that you have to I think you could wear it you could wear a cat suit only and have a you know a pretty head sitting on a cat suit. But I don't think just a herd. I'm not sure I think you could because the hoods the the rubber doll Look, you're looking at somebody else. So why not just cover the rest of your body? Why just cover your face?

Nick VinZant 27:27

Most common misconception about latex?

Kitty Malone 27:30

Yeah, that it's weird that it's like, you know a lot of my family and friends know what I do. But like I said, they don't talk about it because it's weird. It's underground. It's a fetish. It's like, not spoken about, you know, like I said, my friends know what I do. They just don't like to. They just think I'm weird for wearing it. And I don't know why. I don't understand why it's got that persona of being weird.

Nick VinZant 27:56

What would you say to somebody though, that they want to explore this? Maybe they want to explore this with their partner. And their partner just doesn't want to do this. What would you say to somebody who wants to get into this? But feels like they can't?

Kitty Malone 28:10

Yeah, that's a good question. Because a lot of my followers a lot of my clients are the same it's it's a one sided thing, whereas he wants to get into it but the wife doesn't to the extent where it's she thinks it's weird. And never force it upon a girl You know, like never say you have to wear it or you know, it's slowly introducing it. I think that everyone has the right to have a fetish and it just doesn't need to be seen as weird I think that if a man had a you know, an a nylon once you know to see a sexy go on a pair of nylons, then that's fine, but if he wants to see her in a sexy pair of latex leggings, it's not fine. And I just think that that's just bizarre. It's the fetish. It shouldn't be the underworld anymore. It should be. It's a sexy garment. And I wish that every girl could just experience latex the way I do and how sexy it makes you feel without thinking it's weird. And I was one of those girls I did think it was weird. I was like that strange. Just you need to be open about it and just try stuff new. I think that you know if any girl would just try it you either hate it or love it. Maybe it's like Marmite you hate it or love it. I don't know if you have that saying in in the US you either love it or hate it. And you will and I loved it. And I think that a lot of girls if they tried it, they would love it. And there's a lot of girls on Instagram that wear it and modeler and they get so many likes and comments and then they then create an account and they get so much attention because they text is becoming huge. It's so sexy and they love the comments and the loves right? Other than the latex itself, which is fine. You know, it's like modeling anything. If you feel sexy, new, you're getting the love, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna love it. But secretly, you can't wait to get it off and just get into your comfy pajamas. But with me, I love that.

Nick VinZant 30:13

Have you had some clients that have that have run into issues with like, you know, you're you're the only person that I can talk to about this? Yeah.

Kitty Malone 30:23

Yeah, so 50% of my clients, they come with me, or they get customs from me because their wives, their girlfriends are not into it. And they need a release. So they need that time where they can wear their latex, and they have someone to share it with. They can't go to events because you know, the wife doesn't let them or the girlfriend doesn't let them. Whereas I'm not their girlfriend. But I'm there for them to talk about the experience and come with them whilst they're wearing it. I don't want to be their girlfriend. They don't want me to be their girlfriend. They just want to enjoy latex with another person who enjoys latex, I guess

Nick VinZant 31:03

for maybe for a perspective, like what is something that you would look at? And think oh, that's weird.

Kitty Malone 31:09

See, then I don't I don't think anything is weird, because I'm open to everything that anybody wants to explore. That makes them happy. I'm like, that's your thing. Because this is my thing. And I get like, it's not a conversation. You know, I could have with my mother. Oh, I'm a cam girl. Oh, that's nice. But I wear this and this is a picture of me in a hurt should go. What is just I don't understand why though. Why should you think that that's any different to being a girl that comes in my knickers and bra. In fact, I'm wearing more clothes than a girl with knickers and bra. But people love the full coverage. I get more people asking for custom videos of me completely covered than I do get custom videos of with my tits out and everything which can you just wear a latex bikini? Everyone? Everyone wants the latex? But yeah, in the normal world, it's

Nick VinZant 32:06

just weird. That kind of makes sense to me actually. Right? Because it's kind of like because it's so tight. You're revealing your body but also keeping it a secret at the same time. Of course,

Kitty Malone 32:17

it's use your imagination to what's underneath.

Nick VinZant 32:21

I get that aspect of it, why people would request more you have more requests fully clothed

Kitty Malone 32:27

it I love it that when I wear the herd, I get a lot of a lot of requests saying can you just take the hood off? And it's not because it's all because they want to see what I look like. That's the main thing. And that's what I love. I love them not knowing what I look like. And then for example, when I do post a picture without my head, they're like, You're so pretty. You shouldn't wear a head you're pretty without your hair. And I'm like, that's not why I'm wearing a hurt. I'm not wearing a head to disguise a scar on my ugliness. It's because it's the fetish. It's the not knowing. So that's why I wear it. I'm not wearing it because I'm ashamed of my face. It's my fetish, but a lot of people think it is. And then you know, my only fans page, I put loads of pictures out on my only fans page without my hood. And then I get Oh, can you do a custom video without your head? No, because that's not why I did this. This is not why I started this because I don't then feel like kitsy

Nick VinZant 33:25

your most common request your most interesting requests that you've gotten?

Kitty Malone 33:32

Well the most comments requests that I get from fans and followers is can I be your slave so they want to 100% submit to me and be my slave which is very difficult because I'm virtual I'm just online so that makes it difficult. But yeah, a lot of people want to to worship me but requests wise is all about being a mistress and that's really when I started this you know I'm a very sexual person I wanted to submit to people and be fucked by a rubber guy that's dressed in rubber and big shoe you know big sort of like army boots kind of thing and be treated like a piece of cake kind of thing. But then when I turned it into work, I thought no because you have to have trust in someone to be able to fully submit and I'm not going to be trusting anybody to go on calm and them saying to me do this do that. So I kind of went down the mistress route and I loved it. So I am more Mr. Se and I just love the requests I get like I was saying earlier about humiliation. Jao why a bit of teasing. I want everybody to worship Me and you know, that's the main bulk of my business is the mistress. Smoking. Because when you put the latex on and when you see a powerful a sexy woman in latex even myself when I see a sexy woman in latex like automatically think powerful, strong. I have been asked to do a custom video of me and latex hoovering which I found really weird because I love hoovering. Don't get me wrong I love my house being clean but that was weird.

Nick VinZant 35:25

Is hoovering is that I don't know what that means that cumin that Oh, okay, yeah we call it hoovering. I've never heard of that sexual term.

Kitty Malone 35:35

I mean, I've been asked to suck before but sucking up dirt is like with a vacuum is really was like, Oh, that was weird. Like,

Nick VinZant 35:43

I don't want this to sound like I'm judging it but like, well, I don't, I guess I don't understand. Right. Like I understand the idea of being fully clothed in latex versus being not fully clothed. I guess I don't understand what would be the attraction of the vacuum.

Kitty Malone 36:02

itself. And yeah, and I wasn't prepared to do that one because it just I don't know. You can't just say yes to everything right. You have to say what? How can I do that? Do

Nick VinZant 36:15

you remember? Was it like a specific kind of vacuum? No, it was a regular.

Kitty Malone 36:21

Yeah, I just couldn't you vacuum in latex on it, and I could have done my health work at the same time. And yeah, that's

Nick VinZant 36:30

kind of sounds like you missed out on some easy money. Honestly,

Kitty Malone 36:33

it wasn't even in a maid's outfit. I mean, I have latex maids outfits that you know, that's fine if you want me to be a latex maid and

Nick VinZant 36:41

um, okay, so I don't have a sense of smell. So this is this might not make sense to me. But like, what, what what's the best smelling kind of latex? Does

Kitty Malone 36:49

it all smell the same? Oh, smells the same. Yeah, like I keep mine in a in a clothes wardrobe. And when you walk apart, my house smells of rubber. So obviously people that come here to my house, and they can always smell rubber. Another thing is my floors. I've got wooden floorboards in my house. So when you put latex on I use a dressing aid, which is kind of like an oily lube. And if that goes on to the floor, it becomes very slippy. So my floors are always slippy, and I have a dog and bless her. She's always slipping on my floors, because she's trying to run away and then she slips. And I'm like, it's like having oil on your floor constantly. So yeah, it's the smell. My house always smells rubber, latex.

Nick VinZant 37:33

This is the last one we got. How do you feel about Catwoman?

Kitty Malone 37:37

Catwoman wasn't Isn't she like the how kind of latex started and for cats the show, right?

Nick VinZant 37:46

Yeah, that was, I would imagine that most people's first kind of introduction to it.

Kitty Malone 37:51

Yeah, I haven't heard with cat kitty years cat is, you know, full black latex suit, full black hood with kitty is, but plug as a tail, and massive big platform shoes and your cat woman. And to go with that, obviously, you need a big whip. And yeah, that's that's what latex is.

Extreme Kayaker Dane Jackson

From dangerous white water rapids in Pakistan, to 130-foot drops off waterfalls, Dane Jackson has taken his Kayak to places no one else has ever been. We talk kayaking tips, the best rapids near your and his next big adventure. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Most Boring Things We Have To Do.

Dane Jackson: 01:21ish

Pointless: 32:15ish

Top 5: 54:07ish

https://www.instagram.com/danejacksonkayak (Dane Jackson Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/danejackson (Dane Jackson YouTube Channel)

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/athlete/dane-jackson (Dane Jackson Redbull Page)

Interview with Kayaker Dane Jackson

Nick VinZant 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're getting extreme on the water, and boring at home,

Dane Jackson 0:22

I'd say the most challenging, and it's probably the Indus River and Pakistani some of the biggest whitewater that I've ever run, as well as I have the least amount of portages, because I ran this one math about but it's the first person to run it. The biggest waterfall I've run is about 134 feet. I did it last beginning of last year, the biggest risk and the biggest thing people are trying to avoid when running big waterfall and having the front of the kayak stay up, which is what called a boo. And that means landing flat off the waterfall. And what that would mean is that that can often lead to breaking your back.

Nick VinZant 0:52

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest has taken on some of the most dangerous environments on Earth. We're talking about kayaking through class five rapids in Pakistan, and dropping off of 130 foot tall waterfalls in South America. This is extreme kayaker Dane Jackson. So I was watching some of your videos on YouTube. And I was trying to figure out is this safer than I think it is? Or more dangerous than I think it is.

Dane Jackson 1:31

I would say that probably a little bit more control. And more that goes into the clip just seeing then you probably realize like scouting, we look at the features, we have safety. There's a lot of processing like a lot of things happen before we you know, fall off a 60 foot waterfall 100 foot waterfall run the biggest whitewater there's a lot of things that need to happen before that. Like it's almost like a star in a movie. Like we scout it out. We make a plan. We need this person here for safety. And there's a lot that goes into it on top of just our general skill to do it safely. until there's probably a bit more control than you think. But of course, it's always dangerous. The natural river

Nick VinZant 2:05

I guess because I was looking at it right. It's it's definitely not just like, Hey, I got a lifejacket on, like I'm gonna float. Right? Does it work? Does it work like that at the end? Like, all right, whatever happens, I got this life jacket and I'm gonna be okay.

Dane Jackson 2:18

Not quite, I wish it would that strike behind for sure. I mean, there are times that you know, the river maybe just goes into a big pool below. And even if you came out of your kayak, because you have that light jacket on, you're probably gonna be fine. But a lot of times when it comes to the much harder whitewater like, even if it's not even the most insane thing ever, there's a lot of things in rivers that can be dangerous, you know, water goes in between two rocks in a weird way. Or maybe water gets pushed under kind of like a cave, or maybe just delivered just keeps going and going and going. So if you came out of your boat, you wouldn't be able to stop essentially. So there's, it's not just safe, because you have the life jacket like jacket really helped. But there's definitely still a lot of dangerous factors in the river that we have to kind of maneuver around or deal with or be ready to deal with if something goes wrong.

Nick VinZant 2:59

What's kind of the most dangerous thing like what are you always looking out for? Is it a drop? Is it the speed of the water? Is it hitting something on the bottom or what is it?

Dane Jackson 3:09

It just depends on where you're at. You know, there are different risks and different things to look out for when it comes you know big waterfalls versus big whitewater or if you're in a very tight little technical river tight little creek or steeper whitewater. Usually what happened is, there's places where the water gets shoved in between two rocks where you wouldn't be able to fit through what's called like a sieve. So it depends on the way water you're dealing with. But in the end, everything has its own danger. I mean, even one country to the other might have a different style of danger because of the different types of rock and stuff. And when it comes to big water, you know a lot of times the issue with that is that like it sounds like big whitewater, if you're out of your cave, you ever came out of your kayak, you know, it's much more powerful. There's much more like scenes where like the two flows come together, you can get a lot of downtime, they're out of your kayak, like things like that. So there's everywhere had its own kind of risk. And there's a lot of things you're looking for at each different river like every river is different.

Nick VinZant 4:01

How did you get started in this man?

Unknown Speaker 4:03

My dad's a professional kayaker. When I was born, he was already broke. I could have just gone to the 92 Olympics for slalom. So he basically grew up doing that on top of doing a lot of whitewater. And when I came around, he made it he's retired from slalom made its full switch, basically over to whitewater kayaking. And when I was born, I was born in Washington DC and I have an older sister as well. But when we were about four years old, we moved into an RV full time for about six years. And all we were doing is traveling around going with my family to wherever my dad wanted to go kayak whether we go to this area because he wanted to run the river or we go to Colorado because that's where all the kayaking events are. So we're basically traveling around full time without a house for about six years. And even when we moved to Tennessee back in like 2003 we still travel most of the year in an RV and even now that I'm on my own program, I'm in my RV right now and I'd love to end up February and I won't be going back out of my RV until pretty much November. What do you like about it? One it gave me the opportunity through kayaking I'm sure my dad would have done with any sport, but through kayaking allowed me to grow up with my family and travel all these amazing places and have a very unique childhood. But on top of that growing up and even now moving forward, it allowed me to go to so many incredible places all over the world, while doing the sport that I love. And I actually just enjoyed going kayaking every day, if I can, wherever I am actually enjoy hiking, it's not like I'm just hitting for glory, you know, I just actually really enjoy hiking, when I get to go to all these amazing places with my family and friends and see places that most people might not ever get to see.

Nick VinZant 5:31

Why are you good at it? Like, are you? Are you technically proficient? Do you have like, the strongest arms in the world? Like, what what, what, what, why are you good at it?

Dane Jackson 5:43

I think there's a lot of things, I think there's a lot of different factors. A big part, it definitely didn't hurt growing up, and I had my dad there the entire time to coach me, it doesn't hurt to have the bet there all the time. But not only did I have my dad there, but I also grew up because I grew up surrounded by kayaking, rather than getting into it laid out surrounded by growing up, I got to hang out and watch basically all the top hikers of the world, whether in person or all the kayaking videos that were coming out. So I had a very strong influence growing up and a lot of things that I could watch. But on top of that, I did start to get pretty good and an early age, which allowed me to kind of progress along like just kind of learn things along the way that helped me even now like just things that I learned when I was 10 still benefit me and I can continue to learn even now 27 you know, but also I think a lot of it has to do with like mentally, I'm able to really like understand that like no matter how good I get, I can always get better or right now you know i i didn't always love huge waterfall, but I started to get a little better at running waterfalls, I decided now's a good time to maybe see if I can get better at running big waterfalls. And now I feel really strong running waterfalls. But on top of that, the biggest thing is that I do all aspect of hiking. So I do freestyle kayaking, which is like standing features, little short kayaking, do flips, and things like that. But I also do racing like to time trial, I had to had it like someone who like saw him in other places, like I do races like that. But then I also do a lot of Expedition and extreme kayaking, big water, waterfalls, whatever it is. So I think by combining all the different aspects, each kind of played off each other, and I can learn one thing in the freestyle aspect that allowed me to do better in extremely thing or stream kayaking, whatever it is, and vice versa. So I think that the main thing is always willing to try to learn new things progress, my skill, but also, everything kind of feeds off each other to have a lot of very technical things as well.

Nick VinZant 7:37

Not to imply that you're chasing this or anything like that. But when you look at the sport as a whole, like where's, where's the money in the glory ad, right? Is it in the Olympic stuff that I see in the Olympics, where they're going back and forth? It is in the crazy expeditions to places that nobody's ever been? Is it in the most extreme stuff? Like where does where's the money in the glory, so to speak,

Dane Jackson 7:59

it depends on how you presented and do it, you know, like there. In the end, obviously, big waterfalls, and extreme hiking is one one of the more one thing to watch, and one of the more dangerous aspects of hiking, but it's definitely in terms of even non hikers can kind of understand like, you're running a waterfall, like that's insane. You know, like freestyle kayaking, it's a little trickier, but you have to know the tricks and things like that. So I would say that in terms of general audience and you know, really capturing attention, you know, waterfall next to a guy can definitely the easiest, but the biggest thing is that you can find you can become someone in the sport in any of the aspects of it. It's just a matter of like, doing it right, like training it right. You know, maybe you make videos, whatever it is, everything kind of comes together. But waterfall definitely, I would say with the glory that but I don't want to really use that word. Because Yeah, you don't want to run waterfall. You don't want to run waterfall just because that you want glory. Like that's the last reason you should ever be running big water bowls and things like that, if you're just doing it for joy, and hiking very much a sport that you know, it's a smaller, nice sport. For the most part. If you're in it, you're just doing it because you love it. And anything that comes after that is is a bonus. But in the end, if you're not in it just because you love the sport, it can be easy to get burnt down on because the smaller sport it takes a lot of effort to keep going all these got to work hard at it. You got to you know, find ways to mark yourself, you know, I'm a videographer, photographer, all that stuff. So I have to do most of the work myself to presenting out along with my friend. So it's a lot of work to be a pro kayaker, but that was great that it's worth it because you actually just I actually just love the sport and Sony pretty much everyone that didn't.

Nick VinZant 9:36

Do you know, is this full time living? You can make a full time living off of it.

Dane Jackson 9:40

Yeah, yeah, it's not always the easiest. But I'm fortunate enough to have some big sponsors on top of the fact that I also have a lot of ways that I can market myself and work whether teaching photos, videos, YouTube, whatever it is a lot of different things that I can apply to be a pro kayaker, and that's what a lot of people do AT Pro kayakers because it's not the biggest sport so you can't rely on Just 100% on skill alone, they use that the find something that allows you to continue to connect. So some people teach in the summer and then travel during the winter. Or like my friend of mine coaches, traveling kayaking program, things like that you kind of gotta find something that works with hiking. And if you truly enjoy the sport, they're gonna work hard, and every cent you make goes right back into be able to pack more.

Nick VinZant 10:21

Okay, I'll ask if you want to answer this directly, feel free to just put a number on it. But let me ask you this, essentially, when you when you look at your earnings, are you closer to ramen noodles or mansions?

Dane Jackson 10:33

Ah, it's all relevant. People might think that I'm a millionaire, the places I go. Like, I people think that because I'm in a big RV, I got a truck and I get to travel year round, they're like, you must be a millionaire. It's like, No, I just like hiking. I like what I do. So I then I put all my money towards kayaking,

Nick VinZant 10:48

when when you run a river? Are you fighting against the water? Or do you just go with it? And like, I'm just trying to survive here?

Dane Jackson 10:57

Yes, we are going against the water probably in a lot of ways. I mean, we're with the water, but water going against it. And that sounds very cheesy, like somebody just put out a card. But um, but basically, yes, we are going with the river, you know, like our goal. It's like some rapids and some rivers like a lot of rabbit, you don't even need to do much other than just say in the middle of the river. And you might have to deal with some features, but you're gonna be totally fine. And other rapids and a lot of times when it comes to river that I don't want to fighting isn't necessarily the word I would use. But basically, obviously, there's a lot of features on the way down a river down a rapid and those features are what make the challenges and the risks and things like that. So like, there's a lot of features that like you know, if you're starting the middle of the rapid middle of the river, and there's something dangerous in the middle at the bottom left of a rapid, you're going to be working against features, whether it's boiled, eddyline, slower water, big crashing feature, you might be working against those features to try to get to the right side of the river and away from whatever dangerous on the bottom left, if that makes sense. So I would say that you're the you're with the river, because you might use some of those feature to your advantage. And then you're also kind of working against it at time trying to get over these features that are trying to put you in either a bad spot and make you have a not as good of a line, if that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 12:17

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? some fantastic, do it hardest run you've ever done?

Dane Jackson 12:24

That's a tough one. But I would say the most challenging and it's probably the Indus River and Pakistanis, some of the biggest whitewater that I've ever run, as well as the hardest, not only the hardest whitewater and the biggest whitewater for myself and what a lot of people aspire to go run. But also, when you don't run a rapid it's called portaging. And I think people have heard that term before the Indus River. It's even the world top hikers go there. The question people get asked afterwards is how many times did you Portage cut it the Rhondda gorge at the end is and there's a ton of rapids in it. And if you Portage one of these, like all that one Portage, I have the least amount of portages because I ran this one massive app, but it's the first person to run it. So I only have one ported on the entire section. And there's a lot of big white water in there. So I'd say that was my most challenging river I've done so the thing that but there's also some harder ones.

Nick VinZant 13:10

The thing that I've heard is like, Okay, so this is class one, class two, class three, class four, class five, are is what you're doing class five, or is that like, hey, that's just that's for non professionals. And I'm doing something even above that, like class, normal acts or something.

Dane Jackson 13:26

That sounds way cooler than the grading system. grading system guiding is not very strong, because it's very subjective. So yeah, I'm doing clash pod. like to clarify, but my class five might be like someone that's only doing class two, which is the major river, and they step it up into something, they might think that the class five or because it's all about skill level, and like, certain challenges might appear harder to someone else than for myself. So it's a very subjective system. But in the end, yes, I am doing class five, but unfortunately, I wish we had a better system.

Nick VinZant 13:58

So people shouldn't ask you like, Hey, man, oh, that's only class one. And then the beginner gets in there. And they're like, doing double backflips, like he said, but he's kayaker me. Yeah.

Dane Jackson 14:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's my class. class three is probably a little little easier than most people. But yeah, it's all relevant for sure. It's all subjective,

Nick VinZant 14:19

biggest drop you've ever done.

Dane Jackson 14:21

On the biggest waterfall I've run is about 134 feet. I did it last beginning of last year. The salt O'Malley drop in Chile. It was one of the coolest waterfalls I've ever seen. But it's it's one of the few drops that I'd actually seen a photo like three or four years prior. And I just remember coming back to the photo all the time like oh, I really want to go do this waterfall but I hadn't. I people had told me to shallow 100% sure but ended up going to do it. They started last year and it was incredible. did a whole project on it things like that.

Nick VinZant 14:51

So when you say like 100 134 or 131 say 130 134 so the second tallest job has been done is that The whole like, I go off the waterfall I fall 134 feet I land in the water, or is that like in stages you go down?

Dane Jackson 15:09

No, that's one consecutive drop. When we say coming across a drop height, we're talking about the actual consecutive drop. Even if it's a 20 footer into 100 footer, we're gonna say a 20 foot drop and 100 foot drop, and this one with 134. So it's basically the lip where it becomes vertical and when it hits the bottom now,

Nick VinZant 15:25

did you test that out? Or did you just do it like you like put a cardboard box in a kayak and run it off there?

Dane Jackson 15:31

You just like now? I'm just yeah, that pretty much sums up the sport. Yeah, that pretty much sums up our sports to cardboard boxes. No, basically, like I was mentioning earlier, when it comes to something like waterfalls are definitely not everyone loves doing them because they from 10 footers to 110, footer, waterfalls, it definitely can be one of the more dangerous aspect of hiking on or at the very least good way to potentially like you can get hurt on waterfall. And one of the riskier aspects in terms of like just trying to avoid injury. Because even if you have a perfect line, there are things that can just be a little off and you might pull a muscle, you know, or dislocate your shoulder there are ways to get hurt even if you have a perfect line, waterfall, there. Like by the time you actually see us running a very big waterfall. It's almost like I mentioned earlier, like a stunt a movie, like there's a lot that goes into that one moment, like all you're seeing is the final product. But there's a lot that goes into being able to run that as safe as possible. One, you know, we don't if you've only run a temporary waterfall, you're not going to go fall off 130 foot waterfall the next day there is actual technique and things you can learn to get to allow you to have a better line. And for those that might be confused the goal for a waterfall when you're running it in a kayak and to be a vertical as possible. Hopefully a little bit in the flow that's falling but as vertical as possible and get your body as tucked up as possible. The biggest risk and the biggest thing people are trying to avoid in running big waterfall and having the front of the kayak stay up, which is what called a boob and that means landing flat off the waterfall. And what that would mean is that that can often lead to breaking your back now the crazy thing and the often scary part. It's someone that runs like hunting for waterfalls, people break their backs on 10 foot waterfalls 15 foot Waterfall by landing flat and some people might back in Ufa, I got 90 for waterfall be totally okay if you never know sometimes when it comes to that the ultimate goal is to land add vertical if possible. Sometimes you go over the handlebars and land on your head, which is not a bad landing flat, because usually what will happen is you eject out of your boat when that happened. So that's a much better situation than potentially breaking your back. So either way, we just got a waterfall the biggest question is like what's the best way to make sure I get the front of the kayak down the landed vertical as possible. And the crazy part about that is you actually only have the like split second at the lip, you only have that just like top like 10 feet of a drop to really set your angle you can make adjustments, but at the front of the kayak starts coming up at the top of the drop, there's not so much you can do to save it at that point. So there's a lot of techniques and skills and things you can learn to allow yourself to have the best time possible. And then on top of that, the best way is usually we actually will go look at waterfall without water before we even get to run it because we'll swim below we'll see there k behind it is there a shelf coming out from below the flow like there's a lot of things we scout before we even fall off a bit. So the perfect world we see without water we swim around below. We check behind the fall we check all the different things make sure it's deep. And then once it actually water weather, rain fed gambling, whatever it is, then we have safety team below we'll have three or four people maybe two people in their boats, two people on the shore with throw bag broke the thrill out of like so we have a lot of safety and planning that goes into it so that way if something goes wrong, we're ready. We're definitely not just showing up and falling off. But

Nick VinZant 18:45

Wow, man, if I was gonna go off 134 foot waterfall in a kayak seems like that would be the worst way that I would want to do that person. right because it looks like all right, what's the plan? I'm gonna slam my face into the water all right.

Dane Jackson 19:06

I guess when you put it like that it's happening.

Nick VinZant 19:10

But it looks cool. That's good. Did you have like any Did you get anything from it? Or were you just any bumps bruises? Nothing or do you just like alright, it's no Mario's Tuesday.

Dane Jackson 19:21

Yeah, well the one thing about that is um, so I ran that waterfall and sometimes waterfalls can be anywhere from feeling absolutely nothing just so much. It's like a transition and flow like almost just jumping into a pile of pillow that can literally can like I always do that reference but the only thing I can think of but it can sometimes feel like nothing where you you run the drop and you feel exactly the same after or sometimes it can feel like getting hit by a train. It just depends on the line, the drama and sometimes it just comes down to just the slightest change an angle, but that one I was totally, totally fine. I expected to have a much bigger hit but a very soft, didn't feel anything. And then I actually two days later on the morning, of my Flight. It was an 11 hour drive, but I drove like seven hours the wrong way. It's no way I could run another 104 Waterfall and I'd always wanted to do, I ran out like 7am and then I rallied 11 hours and barely caught my flight. I'm out of Santiago because I just always wanted to do that drop

Nick VinZant 20:14

this that kind of feeds into this other question run where you just got your ass kicked. Either from like a physical or a technical standpoint. Yeah, you just got your ass kicked.

Dane Jackson 20:24

Um, I've been pretty fortunate in the end like I tried to pick I mean, there's been times even on moneda on waterfalls, you know, I've had a few times where things haven't been as soft whether I've been not pulled through multiple that probably have broken a couple of ribs. There's one time where I ran a lot of times you want a good amount of water when it comes to running waterfall because the more water there is, there's more variation and bigger boil below so you know if you the big difference between jumping into air and water versus jumping into flat water, so the more water there is usually means that you can have a softer hip because there's more flow more boiled it doesn't always mean it's softer hit but you definitely don't want to fall off a waterfall had no water at all, but then he was landing in green water and that would be a lot worse. One time I ran a waterfall that wasn't didn't have as much water as I probably should have run it but dropped that hadn't been done and why and I really wanted to do it at about 50 feet, not crazy tall but still a solid side job. Didn't have I had a pretty good line but like I didn't want to stay tuck forward and paddle off to the side. I'm fortunately opened up a little bit I kind of landed behind the waterfall it wasn't a very high volume waterfall. I kind of landed in the green water behind it and from that impact actually kind of almost knocked me out essentially where I would actually like out of it for like 20 to 30 seconds kind of like luckily I stayed up right but I definitely blacked out for at least 20 seconds kind of like pattering the water like really confused and out of it. And then once I came to I was luckily still upright but it was definitely one of the bigger kind of impact I've had in on a waterfall and kind of anything in general

Nick VinZant 21:51

best place in the US to kayak best place in the world

Dane Jackson 21:55

depending on what you want to do. I wish that was an easier question to answer but I would say that every US had a couple different have depends on what you're looking for whether it's steeper kayaking or freestyle kayaking or big water whatever it is. The southeast is an incredible hub for kayaking because you can kayak almost year round even in the winter because you don't really get that much snow and a lot of areas so if it rains you can go hiking even over Christmas to Southeast an incredible spot but there's always California Idaho Washington tough depends on what kind of hiking you're looking to do. best spot in the world. Again, we're looking forward to one big water Africa is usually like the place to go like the damn big river that below the Victoria Falls. One of my favorite sections in the world. I go there every winter, the autumn river in eastern Canada for big water. And you know if you want waterfalls, Mexico, or you can go to Chile. They want to go to Pakistan if you want like if there's hiking all over the place. It depends on what kind of hiking you looking to do. Zealand, India, Indonesia, and it's everywhere. But yeah, no, I think North America and Chile as well as Africa like the strongest, the most popular areas for sure. And I'll do a ton in Europe. Favorite get really long. Yeah. Basically everywhere, everywhere. Everywhere. It depends on what you want a

Nick VinZant 23:12

day away from the Sahara Desert. Not the best kayaking. Right, but yeah, that's pretty anywhere else pretty much good. Your favorite? What is your favorite piece of kayaking lingo?

Dane Jackson 23:24

Oh man, why am I blanking on the tongue? Um, I probably saved more too much. Rowdy, I don't like it. I'm blanking on it right now. It's the dumbest thing to be blanking on. I can I can talk for 10 minutes about all the places in the world I can't pick the one I'm embedded on like I don't know what what is my favorite

Nick VinZant 23:44

best kayaking scene in a movie?

Dane Jackson 23:46

Like it needs to be kayaking or kind of just involved with like the river anything anything overall will depend on whether or not you mean cheesy or epic You know, there's when it comes to you know, there's always like movie scenes where the person falls into the river they're like splashing around and flat water and all sudden it cut to some aerial shot and like the word CGI then bit falling off like a 600 foot waterfall and then being totally fine after, like, movies like that all the time. I mean, depends on what there's I mean, there's like, you know, there's hiking like into the wild, like a friend of mine did the stump word for that on the Grand Canyon. And then there's, without a paddle, there's a drop that they fall off, the three of them fall off. In a canoe they fall off like a 80 foot waterfall, which a friend of mine actually did some work for that as well. So it's but there there's not a whole lot of kayaking in movies, but there's definitely a lot of ridiculous scenes in movies where they're actually like, it's it's the worst CGI but that is falling out 500 foot waterfalls and being totally fine with it's like Rambo or pretty much any Harrison Ford movie or things like that.

Nick VinZant 24:51

If there was a fight between kayakers canoers and stand up paddleboarders, who's winning

Dane Jackson 25:01

Oh man. Well, it's gonna be between the kayakers and supporters started canoes but that's just kind of i think i mean i don't know they're they got big canoe words usually think maybe they like to hunt man that's tough you know kayakers I mean both suffered and kayakers have like they're they're tough you know supported the long paddle they definitely have more ability to you know they have a much better weapon although paddled are pretty long blades on both sides. If that can be a battle to the end, it can be Last Man Standing I think that would be that'd be a brawl, I think people will pay paper for that. Yeah, that's, that's gonna be a tough one. I think it'll be kayakers and supposed to be the last one standing. Who it's gonna be though I don't know.

Nick VinZant 25:45

mistakes that a newbie makes

Dane Jackson 25:47

one probably tried to learn by themselves and, or just more than anything, kind of get some be motivated or just kind of loses motivation when they're not progressing as fast as they might expect. Or maybe they're the other people progressing a little faster. So take the biggest mistake newbie make is is like something come will come fast, something might take a little bit more time. But just just have fun with it. Because if you're not having fun during the learning process, that doesn't mean it will be fun later. But it's always a learning process. And it's always a way to progress. So yeah, just making sure you're actually really enjoying yourself and having fun with it no matter how quick or slow something coming to you

Nick VinZant 26:24

tip or tip or piece of advice that you would say, changed your approach.

Dane Jackson 26:29

I can't really say I have like, like one like piece of advice, because I but I would say that the more the mentality that could become invited that just you know, some people want comfort, stability and things like that, but maybe my dad growing up, and my sister kind of motto as well. And everyone can live without compromise. Like a lot of people say, Well, if you if you love this sport, you can't if you got a job, you can't spend as much time doing things with your family, or whatever or whatever, like, you basically just do what makes you happy, do what you want to do, and find a way to make that work. Rather than doing something you don't want to do in the hopes that one day everything just gonna work out and then you're gonna do whatever you want to do like it, you start now and forever, you're not doing exactly what you want to do find a way to make it work. And it's not always easy, might not always be the most stable or response like the most stable or comforting way to do it. Sometimes you might not be my app, I spend all your money so we can go traveling the place you want to go or spend all your money to go travel with your family. So it basically, if you're not doing what makes you happy, don't expect it to come later on.

Nick VinZant 27:36

What is the holy grail of kayaking right now, the thing that like blew, everybody's everybody's going through this,

Dane Jackson 27:42

I would say that there's not like one particular thing because, you know, everyone kind of got different pursuits, you know, there are different things that are being progressed or pushed right now, whether it's downward or freestyling. For myself, as well, a few other categories, you know, downward and freestyle off of waterfall, where you're actually just running the waterfall normal, you're doing tricks off of the waterfall, which is even more dangerous. But there's we're starting to kind of learn it. starting to realize that there's more control than we might have thought we can start doing downward fruit off a bigger drop, or just more types of downward freestyle. There's obviously also the world record waterfall, it's probably right now the world record is 186 feet, please fall in Washington, massive waterfall I haven't done it looks like fun, I don't think I'm gonna do it. I prefer it. If I'm gonna rent something that big. I'd rather save it for something else. That's like four people have already done that drop. But I have a feeling that someone is going to go for the world record sometime soon. I don't know what it's going to be what drop. The hard part is that there's a lot of challenges with big waterfalls when it comes to what makes it safe to do or allow you to have the best life possible. And that drop watch attended about perfect but that drop kind of dropped get at that height. But I'm feeling someone probably going to go for something here in the near future where it's going to be what it's going to be. Maybe that 200 foot barrier will be broken. Who knows. But then with freestyle, you know, the one thing I want to do is the duck like when standing like big freestyle waves are super fun to surf. They're like big standing wave big bass. It's kind of like a an ocean wave but not barreling, we can do really big freestyle tricks and I want to do the double there's an airscrew with a barrel wonach I want to do two rotations and then land someone actually just did not not on a wave but on a waterfall another kayak or handle Sir soulstice just did a project in Chile where he did a double rotation off of a waterfall which was super bad at me not want to do it on a wave. I've been wanting to do it for the last three years I know the wave I want to go to and I've tried them a few times but the problem is I haven't been able the wave hadn't been coming again so I'm just waiting for the day that the wave come back in and we can get back into Canada to do it but yeah, I guess there's not necessarily one thing you know, we're we're all looking at different things when it comes to what's next on it and you know, but record might be broken soon. Things are gonna start getting thrown off of big waterfalls more often, you know competition to get harder that everything kind of got its its next level coming you know,

Nick VinZant 29:56

you've got one run, last run You can only pick one and you're going to be doing this one for the rest of your life. Which one are you doing?

Dane Jackson 30:06

Oh, boy, that's hard. I'm probably I don't know, I guess I probably have to say the Ottawa River in Canada. Because I grew up kayaking there. It's a big water deep waters, one of the most amazing places to learn kayaking, but you can kayak it. It's like a super long, super fun river with a bunch of fun big water rapid but in the springtime, it's some of the best big wave surfing in the world. And then in the summer, the water becomes super warm. And even at lower water, it can be 20 feet lower than it is in the spring. But there's still a lot of really good freestyle, but also it just summer amazing place to hang out paddle with people, just one of the most amazing places especially to learn kayaking, but in the end, it's still some of the best kayak came from the highest water, the lowest water. And so I would pick that because you know, it's good in spring, good in the summer, a lot of fun people to hang out with.

Nick VinZant 30:56

That's all the questions I got, man, anything you think that we missed, or what's coming up next for you?

Dane Jackson 31:00

Right now I'm just currently out here in Washington. Normally, this time of the year, I'd be traveling international weather, no Norway, or we're hoping to maybe go to Iceland or other places this summer. But obviously with travel restrictions can't quite go anywhere this summer. So right now I'm just trying to figure out what to do for the next month or so until I basically until things start to heat up in the East Coast weather rain. And then as I get into the fall after I finish up some races like October, November, that's the time where I can start traveling international looking for other places to go whether Bazile Ecuador, Mexico, I go back to Africa, New Year's, things like that. So just try to figure out the next month and a half. And then after that it's kind of back to full steam ahead and figuring out where the best place to go.

Pole Dancing National Champion Chloe Anderson

Chloe Anderson is a 2x National Champion Pole Dancer. But for her Pole Dancing is more than just a competition, it’s a way to fight back against depression. We talk pole dancing basics, strip clubs, music and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Unintentionally Attractive Things.

Chloe Anderson: 01:31ish

Pointless: 25:25ish

Top 5: 41:29ish

https://www.instagram.com/chloeandersonpole (Chloe Anderson Instagram)

https://www.facebook.com/chloe.anderson.923 (Chloe Anderson Facebook)

https://www.thepolelab.com (Chloe Anderson Website)

Interview with Pole Dancing Champion Chloe Anderson

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, pole dancing, and things that are accidentally attractive.

Chloe Anderson 0:23

As a female, it's very rare to find a sport that one is very sexy but two involves a lot of strength and flexibilities you need to obviously have a lot of elements to be good at pole dancing, because a kid I had depression and I really suffered with it. And then I've not had a problem with that since doing pole, it's such a good thing to do for your mental health. It's obviously your exercise as well. But also get that level of achievement that you get in pole to do something you never physically thought that your body could do. There's no feeling like it,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I am fascinated by people who are really good at the thing that they do. Our first guest is a two time national champion pole dancer, who has taken this art form and really turned it into something so much more. This is Chloe Anderson. So why pole dancing, what brought you to it,

Chloe Anderson 1:35

and I used to teach English as a foreign language in Spain, and I sort of lost my passion for it. And I did some life coaching. And it came out as as learning to dance. I never wanted to learn to do ballet, or anything like that. And there was a poll studio that opened up down the road from me. So I attended a class and, and fell in love with it from from the first moment. And I think I was going about four times a week.

Nick VinZant 2:06

What was it about it?

Chloe Anderson 2:08

I think as a female, it's very rare to find a sport that one is very sexy. But two involves a lot of strength and flexibilities you need to obviously have a lot of elements to be good at at pole dancing. But also it's very empowering at the same time. And it's very rewarding. So when you get that new move that you've been trying to do or achieve that you've been working months on, and it doesn't matter what level you are, it's beginner to intermediate to advanced. It's just as rewarding at each level. And I think that you end up doing things you never thought you would possibly be able to do. Yeah, it's highly addictive.

Nick VinZant 2:50

To me. All right, Joe, as a man watching listening to you like right, you say that it's empowering. But for a man. Like I'm only thinking about one thing when I think about pole dancing necessarily. So there seems to be this kind of like, how do you explain that kind of contradiction that women feel empowered by it, but men are just leering at them while they're doing it.

Chloe Anderson 3:11

I think back in the day, it was like Polo used to be very different. Now, it seemed much more gymnastics sort of style much more technical than it used to be. So when I first started, it was 12 years ago now. And anytime I'd mention it, it would be like oh, what club Do you work in? are so you're restricted? And whereas now if you tell anybody about it, people, male, female, whatever gender they always are, Oh, I know someone who does that. Oh, you really need good upper body strength, good core strength. So I agree with you. I think back in the day as well. There were less and less variants simple. I think nowadays, there's so many avenues you can go down. So you can go down the strippers sort of more heel side of it, which is a lot sexier side, you could go the more trick heavy, which is definitely gymnastic base, and you can go down the choreo. So it's a lot for sort of gentler, more dance sort of style. So I think it's education. Now I think a lot more people see it for what it is. Rather than just being that sort of strip club pole dancing. memory that it used to be but yeah, no, it definitely when I started that was the response that I would get was very much strip club, whereas now It surprises me when I meet someone who's Oh, what club Do you work in? But it just doesn't happen as much which is why it's more surprising. Now.

Nick VinZant 4:34

Do you think that just because more people were doing it or like what do you think caused that change?

Chloe Anderson 4:40

I think more people are doing it and I think where it's become so popular. You've had people come from different avenues. So we get a lot of dancers we get a lot of people with gymnastic background, so they're going to bring their influences into pole pole is still relatively new in terms of classes and things when I started there was no You can train to be an instructor when I started, if you wanted to teach pole, all you had to do was an exercise to music. So it was very new back then. And it was it did mainly come out of strip clubs, they were the people who were teaching. Whereas now there's so many qualifications that you can get to teach pole and you have to be able to be qualified to teach pole. But we do have people who have come from gymnastics. So they're doing all these amazing flips. They're like jumping backwards of the pole, or you've got people who've come from the circus, they're jumping pole to pole. And then you've got dancers who've come in, and then they're obviously exploring more of the dance element of pole. So I think it's branched out more that when people look at it, they go, Oh, actually, that's not very sexy. That's actually pretty impressive. And I think it's seen differently because it is there are more different styles. Now, when did you start competing, and so started competing in 2014. And that's the first competition I won my first competition. And then I've continued competing ever since. So the biggest one I won was it's a national pole dance competition called UK PPC. And I got sponsored choice for elite in that one. And then yeah, I've sort of branched out a little bit, that's very trick heavy, that's definitely more of a gymnastic sort of competition. So it's, you know, pants have to be a certain length and costumes have to be a certain style that nothing shows it's, it's definitely not the sexy side of it. Whereas now, I would say I'm enjoying more competitions that have a bit more comedy factor to them, and a bit more risque. I think, like you can express yourself a little bit more and have more fun with it. And I think the audience will hopefully the audience enjoy it. Whereas I can find like the trick heavy one is very stressful on the body. And I'm getting a bit older now. It's getting a bit more painful.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Why are you good at it? Like are you unusually strong? Are you unusually coordinated? And by unusual, I mean, like more than the average person? Like, why are you good at good at it

Chloe Anderson 7:05

Practice. So I didn't have any strength when I started. So as I said, is teach English as a foreign language. And I remember one day, I was teaching and I pointed at the board, and I saw my, my arm wobble and wobble for a while. And that was in my head, I was like, Okay, I need to change something about this. So I went to pole to get stronger. And in regards to flexibility, I've never been flexible. I couldn't do the splits when I was a child couldn't touch my toes. And I've just trained for 12 years now. And I think, like anything, the more you train, the more you throw yourself into it, the better you're going to be. But I just I loved it. I think that's it, I absolutely loved it. And for me, it's a such a, a way for dealing with mental health and things like this as well. Like as a kid, I had depression, and I really suffered with it. And then I've not had a problem with that since doing poll. It's such a good thing to do if your mental health is obviously your exercise as well. But also get that level of achievement that you get in pole to do something you never physically thought that your body could do. There's no feeling like it. So I think it has so many benefits to it. And yeah, I didn't want to do without it. I don't know how to survive lockdown without it, that's for sure.

Nick VinZant 8:25

For a competition, right, like what are they judging you on? Like what's, what's the criteria that they're looking for?

Chloe Anderson 8:33

So depending on the competition, so for the sort of trick, heavy gymnastic, sort of themed ones, you'll be judged on your costume. You'll be judged on your technique. You'll be judged on your floor work on your theme on how you incorporate your theme, obviously with the pole with the floor as well your musicality Do you hit the beats. And so there's sort of the main ones for the technical side of it. And then you've got things like Paul theater. So Paul theater is a lot more about your performance. So your story, how you've incorporated your your story into your routine, but also technique and also your it's like your tricks, but it will change in percentage, depending on which competition you enter. So for a more drama themed competition, your tricks might only be 30% of it. But then for a trick heavy competition, it might be 40% of it. So it changes depending on what's on what Yeah, what competition you enter,

Nick VinZant 9:39

which one of those disciplines is kind of like the big one?

Chloe Anderson 9:43

Depends on the pole dancer. I think everyone's so different. Now I have some students who aren't interested in tricks in the slightest and they just want to learn choreography or they want to learn heels. They want to learn how to dance around the pole. And then I have some students who absolutely do buys all choreography and couldn't think of anything worse and only want to learn all the big tricks and all the transitions and basically just wants to stay up the pole. So I think it all depends on the pole dancer, I'd say I'm more known for my low pole stuff, I'm probably better down on the like, base work and floor work and choreography, which is why I like to enter competitions as well, because it makes me do more at the pole, it makes me climate and do some tricks up there, which probably should do a bit more often. But I didn't think that you could really say one was better than the other. I think at the minute, it just depends on the person.

Nick VinZant 10:37

Do you have to do any kind of outside training, right? Or do you sit basically, you want to get better at pole dancing, you just pull dance? Do you have to like, go running or lift weights or stuff like that.

Chloe Anderson 10:50

So I hate running, which is good, because you don't need to do that. And so cross training is really important as it is with any sport. So for example, with pole dancing, flexibility, big one. So things like yoga or attending stretch classes does flex classes designed for pole as well, most pole studios offer those. And also with cross training, like strength. So yeah, the gym is really good. CrossFit, anything like gymnastics is really good as well. The issues that we have with pole is even though we train both sides, we can be one side dominant. So it tends to be that we have one side quite overdeveloped. So if we do go to the gym and do CrossFit, and are all these sort of different activities that are much more leveled, it's going to really help us in our body and also reduce the risk of injury as well. Same thing with the flexibility, if you're not flexible enough to get into a move again, you're higher risk in your injury. So the more you can cross train, the better you're going to do at pole dancing.

Nick VinZant 11:49

Okay, let me think of the way to ask you this question without coming off a certain way. Um, when you look at other people who are really good, like elite level pole dancers like yourself, is there a certain size, right? Like, are people who are five, two generally better than people who are like six foot or like, Is there a special size that a pole dancer usually is.

Chloe Anderson 12:14

So I say, men are particularly amazing at it, because they've got very small hips and good strong upper bodies. So men tend to pick it up very quickly and very easily. And women, we do tend to carry heavier weight in our lower area, so in our bombs, so it can be harder for us to lift. And also, we don't tend to be very strong on top. So that can be harder for us as well. In terms of body wise, yes, it definitely plays a part in it. And if you're shorter, then it's definitely easy. You've got less to lift. So for example, one of my instructors, she's got very, very long legs, which are absolutely beautiful. But it's taken her so much longer to be able to get like straight leg, invert straight leg shoulder mounts, because obviously the lever is much longer so it's harder to lift. So yeah, so it definitely plays a part in it being shorter, being smaller, makes it easier.

Nick VinZant 13:04

Are there a lot of men who do it? Like if you put a percentage on it? Like how, how many how many people in a class of yours are in a competition or like men?

Chloe Anderson 13:13

So we don't have masses amount, we probably only about 10% in competitions quite often you have female category and male categories. But I think now they are tending tatsoi they have the tendency to mix them more now.

Nick VinZant 13:28

But predominantly women so far.

Chloe Anderson 13:30

Yes. Yeah. I think it's changing a lot more. Now. I think I don't if you see on social media and stuff, the guys in New York City who were on the trans and everything during these crazy poll moves. And I think for certain men, they prefer to see it more like a Chinese poll, which is still very similar, but obviously a Chinese poll, you can do it and close. It's silicon based. And so yeah, I think it's transitioning a lot more. We're definitely seeing more men and more interest through men.

Nick VinZant 14:00

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes, I think what is the hardest pole dancing move?

Chloe Anderson 14:11

Oh, good question. I think there are many, many difficult policies. I probably say the hardest one that I personally can think of would be a move called rainbow Marchenko. So if you were to imagine someone was sat in the splits on the floor, and then was to reach backwards, bending their back and grabbing their foot behind their leg behind their head and lying almost flat to their leg backwards, and then flip them upside down and stick them on the pole. Yeah. So it's called a rainbow Marchenko how someone even thought that move up. I cannot begin to imagine.

Nick VinZant 14:49

I don't think that I could do that like in a pool. Right? Like with no body weight, like if somebody put a pole in a pool, I couldn't. I could not do that. figure out a way to do that. With no bodyweight, the level of flexibility it involves is immense. What is the best pole dancing move,

Chloe Anderson 15:08

though? Oh, I think there's too many. I mean, everyone has their signature moves. I'm quite bad with names in pole moves. So I tend to just make names up. And the one that I do a lot, which I know the name of is called olivi. Lula. I don't know who names him normally the person who creates some names. And as I said, Paul is still a relatively sort of new sport. So we have some interesting names in pole dancing still. And but yes, Liverpool is probably my favorite one. It goes in most of my routines, but there's too many. I love combos as well. And I think Paul's not just about the move, it's about how you get in and out of moves and make things look interesting.

Nick VinZant 15:49

This kind of segues a little bit into our The next question, which is what is the best named move? Just the name in and of itself? We like who I like saying that?

Chloe Anderson 15:59

I mean, I can tell you my least favorite one, but I don't think I have. This is a very nice move, and it looks lovely. But it's called scooter Boyd.

Nick VinZant 16:13

That's terrible.

Chloe Anderson 16:16

And it's a beautiful move. And I think I know who made it. I'm not going to call her out on it. Because she's one of my favorite products is but the move itself is stunning. But what name was it mean? Do you know?

Nick VinZant 16:29

The first thing that I think of is a dog like scooting it's bought on? That's what I think of what is what do you do in the actual move.

Chloe Anderson 16:40

And it's, I can explain it as a as an instructor you go you hook in inside legs, you're upside down, you come into a straddle, invert and you took an inside leg. And then the inside arm comes off and holds the pole. And you've basically got a leg hooked over the arm. And another leg. Like a poem is very hard to explain to pole dancers, let alone to people who don't pull right.

Nick VinZant 17:02

Yeah, it's kind of like writing Twister, so to speak. Right? Like Yes.

Chloe Anderson 17:08

And I'm a very visual person. I work better by watching.

Nick VinZant 17:13

Yeah, I know what you mean. Um, our strip club dancers generally good at pole dancing.

Chloe Anderson 17:22

Whoo. I think it depends on the pole dance. It depends on the country. And it depends on the club. And there's a lot of factors. And in Brighton, for example, which is where I live. I know. I know, some who really love pole dancing and like are incredible. And I know some who aren't interested in doing the big tricks. I think in strip clubs, it's more about the chat than it is the pole dancing. However, I believe in this only what I've heard of I've not been yet. And America and Australia I heard that the the level of pole dancing in strip clubs is pretty high. And in London as well, I hear it's more of a show rather than just just dancing the pole like they do have performers as well as the girls who work in the strip club as

Nick VinZant 18:08

well. I have been to a strip club in the United States. So I can comment on this. I remember going to one and seeing one woman that it was he was physically impressive what she was able to do. I was like, Oh my god, and everybody was watching her not because they for the her athletic ability. In doing it. It was really impressive. She's doing like pull ups and all kinds of stuff is amazing. Yeah,

good. Best Song. And,

Chloe Anderson 18:39

again, depends so if I do slower routines or more technical routines, I really like glass animals, they have some really good music and two feet as well. They're excellent. And then faster. And I really like kvp V and it's the song coop problems. It's like my favorite song for heels dancing at the minute so it changes weekly but yeah, that's that's my go to at the minute some repeat. What's the most overused one like you're at a competition or you're at a class you know like oh, and sale sale? Yeah, so you know it Yeah, that was used a lot what was the other one? rag and bone man did one that was used a lot. I Imagine Dragons there was one by Imagine Dragons that got used a lot as well. Yeah, they tend to come out and then everybody uses it and then everyone's sick of it. A river as well river by as it Bishop, something Bishop,

Nick VinZant 19:43

but who is like the Michael Jordan of pole dancing. Oh, okay. That's, that's the best.

Chloe Anderson 19:50

And so there's a few Janine butterflies one of them so she's American bass. She used to work for Cirque du Soleil Las Vegas, and she did the pilot Dancing for them for quite a few years. She's incredible. UK bass we've got bendy Kate she's probably the most well known and just spectacular in her movements if you ever get time watch some of our competitions. The one that she did too too big to boots by stormzy is my absolute favorite competition piece of all time. And that was by ben de Kate and then people are popping up now it since lockdown people who've never competed, folks, that's how people get their name out is through competitions. Whereas now because of lockdown, everyone's gone through social media. So we've there's a new goal, or she's not no she's been doing Paul for years called gab Araya. And she just superhuman, like the things that people are able to do I never thought was possible. So I would say now, there's so many so many artists out there that just blow me away. But yeah, they're the three that comes to the top of my head.

Nick VinZant 20:56

Are there different kinds of polls? Like is there an industry standard? Like this is the poll you have to use?

Chloe Anderson 21:04

No, it's you don't have to use certain polls. And I use Expo and I also I work I do instructor training for expert, which is part of Expo as well, and Expo worldwide. So that I would In my opinion, I'd say the probably the most popular one. And you also have different ones like loopup poll. They've got free standing polls as well, which have loads of different companies as well. But yeah, as far as far as I'm aware, I would say expos probably the most renowned one. But I would say if you do buy a poll, always check one that is no plastic part two, that's reputable, reputable, and make sure you've read any reviews as well, especially if it's from a brand that you've never heard of, or, or people don't know too much about. Definitely check out your safety. At the end of the day, you don't want to buy a pole which is going to fall over all the time. So

Nick VinZant 21:58

I do always laugh at those videos, though when somebody like gets on the pole and it collapses.

Chloe Anderson 22:03

See, most of the time when this happens is what what they've done is they've gone around to their partner and they'd be like, can you set this up for me is that I don't need the instructions. I know what I'm doing. And then they set it up without reading the instructions. And then the whole foods falls down. So normally, it's been set up badly or someone's bought a knockoff pole on eBay, which cost them 50 quid and it's full of plastic parts. That tends to be what hat but I've been doing it 12 years and I've not had a pole fall down on me yet.

Nick VinZant 22:32

What country like what's the dominant country in terms of like interest like goo, the Bolivians, they love it, or what country is kind of the preeminent pole dancing country?

Chloe Anderson 22:44

See, I think the Australians because they're just next level, like the just the energy that they have in a dance, I think as English poet says we're very interesting in our dance. And I think we were more maybe a bit more creative with our movement. But the Australians that don't know what's in their water, but one their abs are insane. And two, they're just so fast. And they're clean lines, and there's tricks are strong. And they're just amazing. The Yeah, another level. So I'd say Australia,

Nick VinZant 23:17

I guess where do you what do you think the future is?

Chloe Anderson 23:21

And good question. I think I'd like to think that there's going to be even more diversity through poll, I think, sadly, there's been maybe a few issues with with certain parts of pole, like some people have problems with the fact it comes from sort of a stripper background, some people think it comes from different background. And I think once hopefully the pole community comes together and realizes that it's okay, that we can have all these different variants of pole, and they're all as amazing as each other, then hopefully, poll will progress in a really positive way. Because when I started it was such a supportive environment. I think it lost its way a little bit recently, but it's coming back to it again. So I hope that again, more creativity, I hope, you know, it becomes even more popular. And even more people see it for what it is and how you can be so creative and how amazing is for mental health. And I'd like to see, like other genders come in. Like it doesn't need to be female or into orientated. I think it's now time that more people get into it. But Fingers crossed. Let's see.

Nick VinZant 24:35

That's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything you think that we missed or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Chloe Anderson 24:41

And so next for me, I've been performing again, which has been lovely, and it's nice to be back perform again. I was on my fly pole at the Fringe Festival in Brighton last week. most terrifying thing I've ever done in my life isn't scared of heights, but it's good fun. And But yeah, I think hopefully We can all get back to a bit of normality. We can open our studio, stop performing again and push pole dancing bit more.

Cryptocurrency Expert Preethi Kasireddy

As an entrepreneur, engineer and investor, Preethi Kasireddy is one of the most influential people in cryptocurrency. We talk getting started in crypto, the future of digital currency, and the best investments. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Hats.

Interview with Cryptocurrency Expert Preethi Kasireddy

Nick VinZant 1:24

basically what is cryptocurrency?

Preethi Kasireddy 1:41

Zooming out. There's a lot of different ways to explain cryptocurrency. But the very basics, it's a digital currency that is completely managed by a decentralized network of nodes. And so typically, when we think about currency, like fiat currency, like the dollar bill that you use on a day to day basis, how is that fiat money created? Right? It's created by a central entity, which is the government central banks with digital currency. These are basically currencies that are created by people like me and you and they're completely managed by a decentralized network of nodes.

Nick VinZant 2:21

I think that for people like myself, when I hear about cryptocurrency, the biggest thing is like, I just don't know what's going on. Yep. Is Is that a common thing? Like, Does everybody understand this, but me, or very few people really understand this.

Preethi Kasireddy 2:37

The reason that cryptocurrency is so hard for people to understand this because, you know, you can come into crypto from many different angles. And crypto really touches a lot of different subject areas, from economics, to finance to computer science to policy and legal philosophy history, like code touches a lot of different things. And so it's, it is very this like all encompassing subject. And so when people come into crypto, they try to maybe understand it from the wrong lens. And so they might not have an interest in that lens. But maybe if they look through another lens that might interest them, but people often fall off is they, they learn a little bit about it, and they don't get it. So they give up. It's like to spend a little bit more time how to do a little bit more reading, like if you truly, you know, truly spend, you know, how long like many hours or days or weeks just dabbling into it. And if you still don't get it after, you know, months of like trying to figure it out, then you know, go, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But most people give up too early.

Nick VinZant 3:48

When you talk about like coming at it from the wrong angle. Is that coming at it from a money standpoint? Like look, you can't look at this, like you look at the US dollar? Is that what you mean by like coming at it from the wrong angle, that it's more of kind of a overall philosophy slash movement?

Preethi Kasireddy 4:08

Well, what I mean is, you know, crypto, effectively, if you go down to the very bytes of it, it's essentially a tool, right? It's a primitive, it's a computer science, or math or science primitive tool that allows us to do all kinds of things. We have this thing called a blockchain and it's basically a digital decentralized record of things that happen in a network and using that we can do all sorts of things. And so for example, some people didn't get crypto until defy came along to them, you know, finance makes sense for them decentralized finance, like Oh, I get it, decentralized finance, okay. So instead of a central bank, or a central financial institution, instead of a central institution, creating all of these financial services that people have access to, we can have someone Just write code with all of these financial services and it's decentralized. And so they understood crypto after defy came along, or, for example, creators and artists, for them, like crypto didn't make sense. And if these came along, right, and they're like, oh, wow, I get to own my art, and she made my art in a completely decentralized way, there's no middleman, like, that's cool.

Nick VinZant 5:22

What would you say is kind of the overall point or goal of having these different cryptocurrencies?

Preethi Kasireddy 5:31

The goal is really, the goal is really, I think, to move power to the edges. And so before you had all of the power, slowly getting concentrated amongst these various large bureaucratic institutions, whether that's, you know, the Fang, like Facebook, apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world or governments, right, like they have a lot of power. And if you think about how the financial and economic world runs today, it's like these people have all the power and whoever controls money controls the world, right. And so the point of crypto is to give that power to the, to the people to people like you and me and to the edges. And so, because we don't need the centralized institutions to manage a lot of these services, we can kind of create them from ground up using code and encode them in the blockchain, we can almost, you know, remove the need for them. Except in certain scenarios, it's not like all centralized entities are going to be unnecessary. But in some cases, we might, we don't need them to facilitate that service. And so we give, we encode it in a blockchain and it runs on its own and it leaves the gives the power to the edges. The basic, very basic example I think that makes sense is example of like this kind of decentering, Mr. intermediating, the middleman is like, you know, if you've ever sent money across the world, like you know how painful that is, right? And you have all of these banks in the middle that do all of this hopping, to get your money from one country to the other. It's like with Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency and i, you just send one, click and go and stare in 10 minutes, and you're like, what, like, you know, we didn't need a bank to do that, right? I didn't need a bank to send money across the world. So it's a very basic example. But you can kind of extrapolate that and see how the same thing is true in other areas as well.

Nick VinZant 7:40

Is is kind of the goal behind it. I know we're talking in very broad, broad terms. But is the goal behind it to replace the dollar to replace other currencies? Or is it just to be an alternative?

Preethi Kasireddy 7:54

Mmm, that's a good question. And I think Time will tell whether it replaces the dollar or whether it serves as a hedge or something else. But I think it really depends on it only makes sense to replace the system if a system is no longer serving or doing serving its stakeholders and constituents right? In the in, in the dollars case, right now, the dollar in nominal terms doesn't really have CLE, like hyperinflation, right. There's inflation and other ways, but it doesn't have hyperinflation. But you can imagine this scenario where that does happen, especially with what happened in 2020. And the bank's printing all that money and just people losing faith in larger organizations and our economy just being weird, right? Like, how is the economy just like, hose there's so much money flowing into the economy, like, there's definitely inflation from like a assets point of view, right? So if we extract extrapolate, you can imagine how the dollar if there's a scenario where there is hyperinflation for the dollar, then of course, something like cryptocurrency could be a replacement, but at the very least, it could be a hedge.

Nick VinZant 9:13

So I know nothing about it. And that sounds great. Is there any concern though, that we just replaced one master for another? Right? Because somebody is creating this and they're ultimately not going to do it for free, though Okay. Now the banks and and the government doesn't have control but we now we just got Tom Smith with NF t coin or something like that. Like, how do you keep replacing? How do you keep from replacing one master with another?

Preethi Kasireddy 9:42

Well, that's thing right? With crypto, there's really no master. It's like you have a team that launches their protocol. And sure, in the early days, they do own a big part of the network of the decentralized network. So over time, the network gets decentralized and the controlling ownership of that network gets distributed to the stakeholders, which includes the users and various people who are part of the network and helping maintain that network. And so there is no such thing as one master. Instead, it's a group of people who are controlling this network collectively. And depending on how much skin in the game you have, you're able to kind of have that much impact in the network. And that's why, you know, only if you really believe in a network, you can own part of that part of that network, and you can become part of an owner. And now you have a real say in what that network could do and what it could become. So that, like, in this centralized entity, you don't have that, like, it's not like, if you disagree with the federal, Federal Reserve of their policies, you have the right to like, go up to them and be like, hey, like, I want to I have I have, I don't agree with this, you don't, you don't really have that, like, we don't have a way to get people's inputs, and, and so forth, and, and decentralized control with the crypto network again, because users own it and govern it as well. And you know, a lot of these crypto networks, it's not just decentralized ownership, but it's also decentralized governance. So how the, how the network is actually maintained, what changes are happening in the network? What upgrades are happening, all of that is determined by the stakeholders of the system. So there's no one mastered? What's the catch? Is there a catch? The catch is that building something like this is just a lot more resource intensive and a lot more difficult. Because now, it's when you building a centralized entity, it's a lot faster and a lot easier, because you don't have to worry about distributing power across so many nodes with crypto, because these are open and decentralized networks, you don't really have a choice of who's going to participate in these networks. anyone in the world can participate as a stakeholder in these networks and parking and participate in these governance roles. That leads to a lot more malicious potential, where you can have a bad actor or many, many bad actors colluding to try to destroy the system. And so that's kind of the catch here is that it sounds good. But building these systems is a lot harder than building a centralized system. Because it's decentralized. Now you have to figure out that now that you're giving this power to all these nodes, you have to figure out how to avoid them abusing that power

Nick VinZant 12:41

on like a scale of one to 10. One being, nobody is ever going to do this thing. Nobody knows what it is 10 We are at dollar level. Where do you think that like cryptocurrency is right now? In terms of being accepted by the mainstream? I would say about 10% of the way there. Wow, that's like a one. There's like a one or a two, right? Oh, wow.

Preethi Kasireddy 13:06

Yeah, we're still early. I think. I mean, none of no one's using crypto on a day to day basis. It's not like it's mostly a hobbyist and speculative asset today. And it's just people's imaginations that are driving the prices wild. So like even like bet world class applications that are being built like defy and NF T's and all that. Like, I guess you can say that artists, there's a little bit of traction there. But even there, it's like, you look at the volumes. And it's like, some news platforms have hundreds of transactions a week, compared to like me, that's nothing right. So I just I think we're still early and it's it's mostly just people's imaginations that are, it's one of those things that it's just like slowly will creep up on us. And slowly we'll see more and more crypto be part of our lives, whether it's very direct are kind of in the foreground or background. And I think it will be at least another you know, 10 to 20 years before we start to see crypto being a part of your like daily life.

Nick VinZant 14:10

So this may be a long winded long winded question. But grandpappy VinZant always used to say buy land because they're not making any more of it. Right. The dollar used to be on the gold standard. Is crypto fundamentally based on anything that if the apocalypse comes, I can take this and I can get this thing for it. Right. Like is there fundamentally a backing that could ultimately move this to where the two to take this as far as it could go? Is there something there?

Preethi Kasireddy 14:46

Well, what's backing it is again, the ledger the proof, the ledger that says that you own this and that ledger is maintained and has been maintained by miners All around the world who expend it in the in bitcoins case, for example, the ledger has been maintained by miners who expended all of this compute power to verify every single transaction that went into that blockchain. So you can argue that it's backed by their compute power. And so it's not backed by anything physical, like, you know. And so when there are a lot of people get caught up there, because they're like, we're just so used to the physical paradigm, we're not used to the idea that something that's purely digital and ones and zeros, could be valuable. But if we all decide is valuable, who's to say it's not? Because at the end of the day, what is money, right? Like, why do we believe a paper paper bill is a piece of paper is valuable, because we all collectively believe it's valuable. And so same thing here. It's like if we all collectively believe that we want to consider this ledger, to be a source of truth and something that has value, then you can take that to someone else who also believes that same thing, it is kind of interesting how we, as a society, just decide that this thing is now like, we just how do we do it? Well, we just decide that we're gonna do it.

Nick VinZant 16:08

I mean, it's kind of like, yeah,

Preethi Kasireddy 16:11

yeah, exactly. values of subjective, right. It's like, why is a piece of NF? T, that's digital, like, why is that worth anything? Because we all decided is, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Nick VinZant 16:25

Sure. What is your biggest fear when it comes to cryptocurrency?

Preethi Kasireddy 16:30

That's a good question. Um, a couple of things. One is like regulation, that regulation slows down innovation. And I think you see that a lot. And we're seeing that a lot, right? Like in the US, for example, launching a cryptocurrency app is just have to jump through a lot of huge hoops in India. It's just, there's so many developers who want to build crypto applications, but the regulation is just like so unfriendly, and so unclear. And so I fear that regulation just like slows down innovation and discourages people from getting into the space because they're scared of getting fined or getting going to jail or getting taxed or whatever. The other thing I fear is, like more and more, I think one of the things you saw we sometimes see with crypto is a lot of like cult like behavior where there's very dogmatic views about one cryptocurrency being better than another. And I think reality is like, I believe in a multi currency world where all these different currencies represent different philosophies and different approaches to solving different problems. And so it's not that one is right and one is wrong, it's just that we just have different ways of solving the same problem, or different problems. And so I worry that all of that dogmatism and close mindedness will just lead to a ecosystem like of like, insular cryptocurrency networks, instead of all these cryptocurrency networks operating in interoperating. Together, I think crypto is is interesting in the sense that every network is workable. So if someone doesn't agree with one philosophy, or one approach to building a network, they can just fork it and create their own version with better rules. And so, because of that, no matter what happens, we'll look at there's a mechanism for the system to evolve into something that is better than what exists today. You know, and that, that's just that's powerful.

Nick VinZant 18:38

If you are a betting person, can you name the exact year that cryptocurrency will become mainstream?

Preethi Kasireddy 18:45

Maybe 2030 2035 10 to 15 years? Yeah.

Nick VinZant 18:53

Do I need to understand cryptocurrency? to invest in it? Or to use it?

Preethi Kasireddy 18:58

I would say yes. It just got general philosophy of investing, right? Why would you invest in something you don't understand? It's my it's your money. And so you're gonna, you're just gonna throw it into something? You have no idea. This because other people say it's valuable. So I would say yeah, you definitely should spend a good amount of time figuring out whether you believe in whatever you're investing before you put your money in. And also be very careful of how much money you put in because if you're getting into crypto, I think you have to come in with the mindset of like, you're investing how much you're willing to lose. This one just says, What if this actually happens? I guess I think what they mean by that in the sense of like, Alright, you talked about earlier how maybe we're 10% of the way, way there, since we have 90% of the way left to go.

Nick VinZant 19:43

Like, is there a looming issue? Is there a thing out there that like, oh, wow, we really shouldn't have done this. Right like is, is there any worry in your mind that we are creating something that we shouldn't have created?

Preethi Kasireddy 19:57

That's an interesting question. I do think about that sometimes, because there's a part of me that like, you know, there's the digital internet is great, right? Like, it's enabled a lot of things like for us to do something, this was never possible before without the internet. But there's also a lot of downsides, right? The internet has just as many dark sides of the has good sides. And so anything digital, anything, any technology can be used for good or bad. And I think, you know, if we're not careful and cautious and thinking about how to build these networks, there could be a scenario where we're just not happy with the outcome. Like, for example, even with the internet, right? Chris Dixon talks about this a lot, where he says he feels like the algorithmic ad model that we have on the internet was the wrong turn for the internet. It's not the internet that we want, right? Like, is that really like? Do we want to live with this forever, where people, these big corporations are basically feeding off your information and data and sending you ads based on everything you say, view watts, like this is that sounds like, just disgusting, right? Like, is that the internet we want? And so same thing can happen with crypto, like we have to make sure that whatever we're building is like, is long term, what we want and create a net benefit for society and not not perverse incentive intensive in incentives. But that's also the beauty of crypto is that because it has incentives built in? From the very beginning, you can kind of figure out that the the incentives of the system and make sure that because the only way it cryptosystem works is if all the stakeholders agree to the rules, and they agree to participate and govern those rules. And so if any stakeholder of that system is not happy with the rules, the system doesn't work. Right. Like in, in, in centralized entities, that's not necessarily the case.

Nick VinZant 22:03

Is Ilan Musk, good or bad. And that's specifically him, I think you understand, like, in the sense of like, are people like that somebody who can swing the market? Is that good? Is that bad?

Preethi Kasireddy 22:15

I think it's, it's just is, you know, it just?

Nick VinZant 22:21

Yeah,

Preethi Kasireddy 22:22

what what do you do? Yeah, like, it just is, and it's like, he can control the market, because that's how much power he has as an individual. And just, I think it's, rather than asking whether it's good or bad, it's like, try to kind of dig a little bit deeper and try to figure out like, what does this mean? Is there

Nick VinZant 22:40

What do you think I guess is kind of like to me, somebody's looking at it from the outside. First, there was Bitcoin. Then I heard about Dogecoin. Like, what's the next big one in your mind that I'm going to hear about? I'm surprised you haven't heard about aetherium. Okay, that one's a little bit familiar. But the thing is, is that the picture of Dogecoin is what really captured my attention, right? Because I'm like, Oh, it's a DOS.

Preethi Kasireddy 23:03

Yeah. I don't know what the next one will be. That's a good question. So Bitcoin and Dogecoin are probably well known because they're, they're basically memes, right? There means right? Bitcoin is a meme. And Dogecoin is a meme. And that's one of the things cryptocurrency showed us is the power of means and how much value means actually have and people try to rationalize it, but it's like, there's no rational reason for why Dogecoin is valuable. If you're trying to put common sense into Dogecoin. Like you've lost already, right? It's It's It's just psychology and human behavior and and mathematics. Explain what Dogecoin is,

Nick VinZant 23:41

is there a specific country that you feel will end up benefiting the most from this, like in the quest for global dominance, who emerged who emerges victorious?

Preethi Kasireddy 23:54

I actually think it's like the smaller nations that will benefit a lot from it, because you know, they don't have powerful economic centers or currencies, but they can if they embrace crypto, then they can almost like leapfrog the larger nations and create a digital and decentralized currency that's powered by the blockchain. And you can see countries like Estonia and Singapore really embracing crypto, for example, these are very small countries. But as a result, you're seeing a lot of talent move to these places because they're crypto friendly. And so I think in the long run, they can have a competitive edge in terms of just attracting talent and doing things ahead of everyone else while like nations like the US kind of fall behind. If they don't, you know, catch up.

Nick VinZant 24:48

Is there a country in your mind that like you guys are screwing this up like the way that you are doing this, this policy, this attitude towards this whether from the government from the people in charge From the people like you, this is the wrong approach.

Preethi Kasireddy 25:04

I think the US isn't a is one. India, you know, I'm a little bit disappointed by how India is managing it, I think they'll come around to doing a little bit better job. But

Nick VinZant 25:16

yeah, when you before you like investor before you get involved with a different coin, what do you look at?

Preethi Kasireddy 25:23

I look at a few things. One is the look at the team. No matter what investment you make, it's really important to really look at the team and what their background is, and figure out whether they're the right team to build this. Second thing is I look at the technology obviously figure out like, what are they building? what problem are they solving? are they thinking about the problem in the right way? Their thing I look for is token economics, if they have a token to the project, and I'll try to figure out whether they've really thought about how this token is gonna be used, whether like it aligned with the interests of the different stakeholders in the system. Beyond that, you know, I look at I tried, it depends on the specific use case and the industry. So like, I'll like look at competitors and see if anyone else is doing something like this, I'll try to figure out and extrapolate how big I think this can be. And what I think like, you know, if you just kind of play out the success scenario, whether this could be something that's truly, truly meaningful and make an impact, or whether it's sort of like too small to make a good investment

Nick VinZant 26:32

for people who want to learn more, how can they How can they contact you, like what's coming up next for you, that kind of stuff?

Preethi Kasireddy 26:40

Sure. So I have a free crypto email course, which they can sign up for the link is on my Twitter, as well as on my website. And it's just a sequence of emails that really digs into and teaches you the history of money, how, how central banks manage money, and then it goes into the history of Bitcoin and how it got created. It also teaches you a little bit about Bitcoin. That's, of course, is free for anyone to sign up. And then I'm also going to be launching a my first cohort based course on aetherium development. So it'll teach you how to go from knowing if you're a software engineer, I'll teach you how to become an aetherium developer in seven days. And this is a boot camp type style thing. It'll be a seven day intensive boot camp, likely launching either end of August or beginning of September. So I haven't opened up applications yet, but I'll be opening up applications sometime in mid July. So if you're on my email list, you'll hear about it.

Nick VinZant 27:48

I want to thank preethi so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have a link to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information in the episode description if you really want to get into cryptocurrency. If you want to learn more about it, she teaches some excellent courses that she's made available. Okay. Now, let's go ahead and bring in john Joe. Okay. Do you think that you're going to adapt with the future or that it will pass you by?

Unknown Speaker 28:23

I will say that I will adapt where needed. But even in terms of like today's technology, I'm already behind to a certain degree because I still read books. If If I didn't have a job that required me to be on my phone constantly. I wouldn't care what kind of phone I had, you know, I just so that I don't, I don't think it'll pass me by but how much I partake in, it might not be a lot.

Nick VinZant 28:50

See, I think that means it's probably going to pass you by. Because you're not going to do the necessary thing to like, keep up with the next thing. And then the next thing comes. And then the next thing that happens to you is you're the guy one finger typing on the keyboard that doesn't understand like, wait a minute, where's any key? I can't find any key like that. That's what's gonna happen to you think that's gonna happen? What's gonna happen to me too?

Unknown Speaker 29:14

I think we're on that fringe. Like age, you know, like we weren't born into, you know, like, when we were teenagers. It wasn't all about technology. But, you know, like, half of my high school class had a cell phone, but not everybody.

Nick VinZant 29:29

Yeah, my high school class. So a couple of people still had pagers. Like somebody had a pager and you had to stop at it. You had to stop at a payphone. Like oh, man, I'm getting paid. It's called the payphone. But we grew up with the basic language, right? Like we could figure it out. The reason that I asked this is because our guest is a cryptocurrency expert, and I don't have any clue what that is like no. And I feel like that whole thing this next wave that's coming is just gonna go right past me. You can go right over my head.

Fireworks Show Designer Phil Grucci

From national celebrations to world records shows with nearly a million fireworks, Phil Grucci is the creative force behind some of the world’s biggest fireworks shows. We talk fireworks shows are put together, how fireworks are made and the world’s best fireworks shows. Then, we countdown a special Top 5.

Interview with Phil Grucci of Grucci Fireworks

Phil Grucci 0:12

By the time I could realize that you had the pressure of a family business, I was already addicted, green and red is probably the easier colors to make. So when you see a firework show that's predominantly red and green, it's just because they can't make a good blue.

Nick VinZant 0:30

Most fireworks, you've launched at one time

Phil Grucci 0:32

960,000 devices, which was a world record. In eight minutes 52 different cities spread out around the entire Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Nick VinZant 0:44

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So no matter when you're listening to this or where you're listening to this, we have all seen and been captivated by a firework show. But what does it take to actually put one of these shows together? It is so much more interesting and complicated than I ever would have thought. Our first guest is part of a family that has been making their own fireworks and designing firework shows all over the world for six generations. Our first guest is the creative director for grucci fireworks. Phil grucci. So as the creative director, when you get ready to put together a firework show, like what goes into that.

Phil Grucci 1:37

So when that call comes in, we kind of feel the client out on what they're looking for. And that puts us in an area of the scale of the performance, the performance where it's going to be if it's going to be in downtown Manhattan, or is it going to be out on out on a farm out in eastern Long Island that sets our stage? What is the stage is a roof of a billion dollar building? Or is it out on a barge on the Hudson River, for example. That's the staging. Naturally, this the business aspect of it has to happen such as what the budget is that they have. Some of our programs range into the 1000s of dollars into the millions of dollars. So obviously, that puts you into into a box that you have to work to create something, its budget and what the stages. Once we have that, if it's if it's a performance that we're choreographing, to music, it's setting a music score. So we listen to all the music depending on what the celebration is naturally, on the Fourth of July and Independence Day, everything is very patriotic, everything is very pure and colorful and red, white and blue. If it's a wedding, then it's generally what's the bride's favorite music? what's the what's the groom's favorite music? What's the message, what's the theme. So when we pick that soundtrack, we go through that process of then scoring that music, and then that becomes the bed or the timeline that the fireworks performance is, is is designed to. But then there's some clients that have a theme that that we have to create uniquely and what the celebration is about. And then then the design is the meticulous setting of every single firework device that's going to be displayed in that program at a very precise moment in time based on what that music what the tempo is. If the music is big, robust and Baroque, naturally, the fireworks have to match that. If it's soft and delicate, you don't want to be bah bah bah bah bah bum in the sky real loud, you want to be soft and delicate with the product that you select. So it's, it's very much like casting a ballet or a dance, you know the certain characters or certain performers act and do things uniquely than others do. So we'll have a firework that's called the Golden Comoro that's very elegant and at first, it's very gentle when it when it when it displays and then we'll have a firework device called a reporter salute that all it does is make a bright white flash and a bang. And those get choreographed into that performance at the appropriate time when it matches that design, tempo and feel. So then that's all the design side of it, then that's about a third of the activity every every minute of fireworks you see in the sky takes me about two hours of scripting and design time to kind of plot that material out on where it's going to be at what angle it's fired from which portion of the theater or the stage that we're working with, where does it get located. And we have 12,000 points to pick from to discharge fireworks from. So that's how how elaborate some of the performances can be when we're picking a single device that's going to be on the pinnacle of the building, and it's gonna fire at a 45 degree angle to the to the south. That's the kind of precision that goes into some of our performances. So once that design is completed, then it goes to the programming department. And they they meticulously take line by line and, and put it into a computer program that then generates all of the drawings and scripts and all of the to give to the prior technicians that are in the field to know how to actually install this, this program that I may have envisioned on on my system here at the studio, but then translate that into paper where the pyrotechnicians in the field can set all of that product up properly and have the green when fire when the green was was the fire in the pink one fire when the pig was was the fire. Then it goes down to our factory in Virginia. And all of those characters, all of the gold willows and all of the red strobes in the Gulf that are split split comets, they all get put in a range. In order by which they have they're going to be displayed and they get numbered. So each circuit every single firework has an electric circuit that it gets fired from. They all get packaged, and then they get shipped from our factory, which is a regulatory rich oversight that we have. We follow a lot of laws to move explosives because it's not sneakers and socks to any place around the country of the world. So sometimes we have to put our fireworks in containers and shipping by sea. Most of all of the fireworks get shipped around the United States by truck. And on the rare occasion when the time is very short, the client has to pay the the exorbitant expense to fly it by air. Then when it gets to the site. That's another five is six. The largest program we ever displayed was a Guinness World Record which we had 250 pirate technicians working on site for over a month and a half. We serve 15,000 lunches to this team to be able to put the show together that only last six and a half minutes.

Nick VinZant 6:47

I cannot believe how complicated that is. I honestly thought and I don't mean any offense like I thought it was like a guy pressing a button.

Phil Grucci 6:58

There is a guy who presses a button at the end of the day guy or gal we've got plenty of female pyrotechnicians, but there are the pyrotechnic pyrotechnicians eventually does press that button that starts at all. But all that work that I just talked about has to happen before that proverbial push of the button happens.

Nick VinZant 7:17

So you got like your average Big Show say? city fireworks, your average like city fireworks. When when do you need to start planning for that fireworks event? Like how long does that whole process take?

Phil Grucci 7:31

No,that's a good question. Most of the time, we prefer to get eight to eight months to a year to prepare for a show. Fourth of July we have 8080 some odd firework displays that will produce in that one weekend that one day. And what I didn't include before in my description is all of the logistics that has to happen. Moving crew around getting the airline tickets, getting the hotels, the hotels, getting the trucking routes, getting the permission from the area that you're going into the display, the show, the fire department, the Coast Guard, the FAA, all of the regulatory parts of it,

Nick VinZant 8:05

it's pretty much based off of music is usually how you're going to kind of choreographic right that kind of dictates everything from and it flows from there.

Phil Grucci 8:12

This these days, most of the shows are choreographed to a music score. There are a few that still wish to have them traditional which they're beautiful shows where you really focus on the beauty of the product and not the the influence of music.

Nick VinZant 8:29

When we talk about these fireworks, you know, the big ones that are being sent off into the air like how are they different from the stuff that I buy it the stand like how is it different from that

Phil Grucci 8:39

the chemistry is pretty much the same as far as the combustion create colors and the crate noise and create crackle and whistle. It The difference is the volume is the size is the sum of the chemistry is different because of the user and the trained aspect of the professional prior technician then the general public. And by and large, most of it is larger. Some of our devices are 12 inches in diameter and the burst size of three or four football fields. There's differences in how its how it's fused. So when you light it with a with a with a lighter, it takes so much time before it ignites as compared to most of all of our products are filed electronically. So we have very elaborate computer systems that will initiate things electronically. He said a lucrative business, my family's been producing firework displays for six generations now. We don't have a Learjet but we do support our families. You know, we work for the money that that we make through the through the business. There's a lot of employees that are not Gucci's but yet they've been with us for 3040 years. So it's it's lucrative to the extent that we support our families we live comfortably but it's not a business where where we can retire in one year.

Nick VinZant 9:56

Was it something that like does this something that You really wanted to do, or was this because it's a family business like, Look, this is always going to be your path.

Phil Grucci 10:07

No, no, no I, I went to college and I got my degree in finance and business administration. And I knew when I was a very young age as a young male, you got that that energy and that power in the blood when you were a young 16 years old. Remember being on a barge with my dad in Coney Island. I, every Tuesday, during the summer, we would have a performance for the music park in Coney Island, and then every Wednesday would be Rockaway Playland. So I got into my blood in a very young age, back in the 70s. It was, it was a little easier than it is now. So Mike, my son, Christopher, and my nephew, Cory, they couldn't touch anything, or even be anywhere near the fireworks until they were 18. So they kind of missed that, that period of time they get addicted to it as much as I did when I was, you know, that was the only thing I really knew that was as exciting as as you know, as anything. And I chose, wow, this is what I want to do. I didn't choose it, because I felt I was obligated to do it because of the heritage I was too young to by the time I could realize that, you know, you had the pressure of a family business. I was already addicted. So I and I even today, even with the challenge, it's not an easy business. It's not an easy occupation. But the part of it that keeps you going is the art form. You know, the creative aspect of it and see something is short term, you create it, you see it the sky. You see the pleasure brings to your question before Yes, it's it's, it gives us financial benefits to survive and feed our children and put clothing on our backs and have nice houses and nice cars. But the addiction part of it is is the creative part and watching a firework show and turn around Look, look at the audience and you're looking at the five year old grandchild next to his or her grandfather, or grandmother. And they're looking at the firework show in their face looks almost exactly the same. The only difference is one has more wrinkles than the other but the expression on their face. It's pretty much the same. The jaws open. They're not looking at cell phones, they're not. You know, they're not they're not they're not texting, they're not playing games and watching for that 20 minutes or 10 minutes or however long The show is that watching that firework show. And for the for the elder people, the adults for that 20 minutes or whatever it is they have no, they have no worries, they forget about all the problems that they may have, or the problems in the world.

Nick VinZant 12:43

What do you think? Is it about fireworks that kind of captivated us so much? Because it is like it's a bright light in the sky and a loud noise. But for some reason, like it really gets our attention. One it's,

Phil Grucci 12:58

it's it's energetic, right? It's it's energy. It's a lot of it's forceful and in and it's dangerous to an extent right to the audience. It's like, it's that little mystery that's going on behind that, behind that behind the fence line saying, Wow, you could hear the power. And it also it also tickles all of your senses. If you think about it, right? You can watch a movie, or you can watch a powerful fireworks program on television. But do you get the same reaction if you're if you're live? No, you get a better reaction because it's live because you could feel it on your skin, you could feel the pressure on your face, you can, you could smell it too, right? You could smell the smoke in some cases, and it's bigger than life, you know, it's something that's what you feel like you could reach out and touch it. And it's, you know, your peripherals filled? Where do you Where can you get a medium like that in the art forms? That provides that kind of excitement. And then a little bit of an I do believe is the fact that it's it's it's got a little element of danger in their perception, like going to a car race, right? Think about how many times or what opportunities you have to really hang with your family. And all of you enjoy the same thing.

Nick VinZant 14:06

So we don't usually get into this this early. But I think a lot of these kind of sum up questions that we would normally talk about. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. What is the most impressive firework to you?

Phil Grucci 14:23

The most impressive to me. This is a show that we actually manufacturer and it's a show that my dad kind of it was I should say kind of did develop and and displayed it in such a way that it became close to our trademark lock. It's called a Gucci. It's a golden flitter split splitting comment in the Shell has multiple dimensions to it. So when it bursts one The color is very rich, it looks like 14 karat gold, but it's got a shimmer to it. And it has inside of the shell. It's got 52 of these very large comments that when it bursts, it looks like a spider's legs that are coming in And then just as it appears like it's going to go out the ends of all of that the tentacles at the bottom, all spit, split and explode at the same time. So it's a double dimension, dual dimensional item. It's very elegant, we typically would display that right before the finale. So when you have those fireworks that I always think of the one that's like, boom, and then it goes, boom. And then there's like, shoot, and then a boom. Right? So that's multiple shells inside of the same multi break shell. That's correct. Yep. Or, or the Shell has one break. But the components inside of it, then have multiple breaks. So you can have a splitting comment, as I meant just mentioned a gopher to splitting comment, which is one break one burst. But all the little cola comments inside of it have another secondary burst. So you get kind of a two stage effect that

Nick VinZant 15:52

are they fickle? Are they pretty, pretty reliable in the sense that Yeah, we're dealing with explosives, but this thing is going to act exactly how I think it's going to

Phil Grucci 16:00

it's by the time we bring it to the site to the display site into our staging area. It's it's been tested at the factory. Now it is it is a an item that's primarily made by hand. That's why it's still very much an art form and a craft because a lot of the products are molded by hand, although the components may be molded with biodegradable polymers and things like that. But the the construction of it is made by hand. Do you ever have a failure? Yes, sometimes we do have a failure of the device. So it may not look as perfect as it is but that's that's way down in the in the sub percenters, you know some single digit percentages? And you know, there's there's laws and there's regulations on the distances to the audience and things like that to accommodate for that. So have you noticed the firework display? You should not be very close to that point of discharge when that fire is coming out?

Nick VinZant 16:57

How much like how would your average firework that that we see in a firework show like how many how many things of TNT or like how powerful and explosive is usually?

Phil Grucci 17:09

Well, there's there is a T and T equivalents to it. But you know, and the general public doesn't necessarily know what a factor of one, this is a one half of it, you know the value of t and t. But the the explosive that we work with primarily is black powder. So we're T and T is more of a cutting type of a high explosive for for doing damage black powder, although it's explosive. And although it makes noise and it does things like Push, push fire auction to the sky and burst fireworks open. It doesn't have what's called the Verizon says TNT does. So the TNT equivalent of black powder is lower. If you did like them, and you did and they did like unintentionally in bulk. There could be there could be substantial Calla collateral damage done in the area that they fire, if they're not launched out of a mortar to be fired in the sky as they're intended.

Nick VinZant 18:05

Is there one firework that you guys have that you would say like Oh, God, like, Hey, guys, we this is, you know, you know, Betsy here is is she's the dangerous one. Are they all pretty much the same?

Phil Grucci 18:17

That well know that there are items that you have to have, you know, as I mentioned before, yeah, there's a distance that we have to the audience based on the firework, diameter in size. So yes, as the, the size and the weight of the firework gets larger, larger, they become more and more powerful. So if we bring out a 12 inch in diameter shell, it's treated with a little bit more a lot more distance to the audience, because it's going to burst about 10 times the diameter as this little two inch shell that you might be able to even see sold down south, you know, legally a consumer fireworks area. But there's not those items you look at and go oh, this was a lot less reliable than the other one. In your opinion, what

Nick VinZant 19:03

is the most overrated firework, not saying it's not good? Just the one that you're like?

Phil Grucci 19:10

That's a good question. I never, ever thought about overrated. You know, I don't. You got me stumped you. You're right. Some of these questions I've never heard of what's the most overrated I guess the most overrated fire or could be a salute. It's a it's a, it's the one that goes in the boom, you'll hear boom, a white flash of path of, you know, it's the chemistry that's used inside that gives you the white flash. It's the easiest firework to make. Because it's very, this two components and then you put in a cardboard tube and that's what you know what the bad guys make as far as you know, the contraband and illegal illegal explosives that are out there. People call them fireworks, they're not fireworks, they're illegal explosives, because it's so easy to make. So that one I would say is overrated because you get too much this too much attention to it. Because everybody says, I know how to make fireworks and you make that it's too easy.

Nick VinZant 20:05

What's your favorite color of firework blow my least favorite,

Phil Grucci 20:11

green, green and red. And the reason why green or red is because some back to the green and red is probably the easier colors to make. So when you see a firework show that's predominantly red and green, it's just because they can't make a good Blue. Blue is very difficult blues and purples are very difficult to make a good blue.

Nick VinZant 20:35

What's the hardest color to make

Phil Grucci 20:37

blue, blue is because of the temperature, the temperature band in order to create blue is much narrower than some of the other colors. So the temperature that you have to burn Burn the copper which which is the metal that's used to create the color blow. It has the range that you have to get it into in order to get that blue spectrum is much narrower than the other colors that you that you can create white Cz. And like I said the reds and greens are kind of kind of the easier ones to make in the color spectrum, blues and purples, those are a little bit more difficult. And then the other thing too, is to control the burn. Having the ability to control how fast they burn, because you can make a really good blow. But it burns too slow. And if it burns too slow, all of the blue items that are coming out of your firework show are landing on the ground. So if you can't control how fast they burn, then you may have something that becomes that shell that you say hey, we can't shoot that because all the products will land on the ground and put the grass on fire put the woods on fire.

Nick VinZant 21:44

Most fireworks you've launched at one time

Phil Grucci 21:46

960,000 devices which was a world record. In eight minutes 52 different cities spread out around the entire Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Nick VinZant 21:59

Can you tell me how much they spent on that?

Phil Grucci 22:01

Well, the 12 million, which is not relatively speaking, it wasn't that much for them for that for that size.

Nick VinZant 22:09

This question is kind of interesting. When you watch other people's firework shows, what is a rookie mistake that other people make in programming their firework shows like if you're watching somebody else's firework show, you'll see it and be like that's a rookie mistake

Phil Grucci 22:25

too much too much of anything is sometimes not a good thing. So sometimes people feel that the more you put up in the sky, the better the show is going to be. So you may have seen some shows that what we call white out, so if you if you fire the beautiful blues, the beautiful greens, the beautiful reds, the beautiful oranges, purples, and all that and you fire them too quick and you have too much in the sky. It basically waits out you don't see the colors anymore. plus another factor is when you when you when you fire too much, you got too much smoke. And then after a few minutes of the program, it obliterates the sky. Well, you can't see the fireworks behind it.

Nick VinZant 23:08

What is a show that you said that you feel like people people should go see that at some point

Phil Grucci 23:14

is a performance that we have every year at the hagley Museum in library which, which is in Maryland. And it it's at the old DuPont factory that made black powder on the brand new on the Brandywine River. And that's a program that they've maintained their traditional ways where the old set pieces in the in the fire paintings in the pinwheels and all of the old style of fireworks still exist in that program. We've been displaying that for many years now. And that one for us is a special one because it brings back all of that old school type techniques they haven't gotten overly addicted with the technology where everything becomes a little stale sometimes when you when you have super precision and it's always you know this this is after a while you want to see a little bit of organics to it things kind of free flowing. And that hagley Museum and Library is the one that you'd want to go see.

Nick VinZant 24:12

What would you say overall is like when you look look at your career so far what would you say is like that's the coolest thing I've done

Phil Grucci 24:19

it Yeah, that's there's a few of them. And that's what gets you waking up in the morning to do it another one sometimes I wonder while you're while you're producing them whether you could take on another one of them because you because your body can physically take it anymore. But yeah, one I would say was the world record in 2014. When we had it was in the Middle East and we had that's where we had the 250 pyrotechnicians and we had the 12,000 devices on the on the on the on the roof on the building of the Burj Khalifa which is the world's tallest building. We lit up the entire island that was in the shape of a palm tree with 250 boats and 50 Two flatbed trailers full of fireworks and then we had the world islands. We had 132 Islands up, you fired from all simultaneously at the same time. And when you came in a week, when we accomplished that feat, it was something that when you get compliments from your own industry members and your competitors and said, How the heck did you guys do that? From a from a tactical and logistics perspective, it was pretty impressive. From a creative perspective, you know, there was probably Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge when we when we produced the Brooklyn Bridge Program. And most recently, I see most recently, but 2014 was the 200th anniversary on that of the national anthem of our Star Spangled Banner. And we were commissioned to produce a firework show, they wanted to have something unique. And it was just at the time, when we developed and patented a microchip that we put inside of some of the very high end fireworks that we display. And that microchip gives us the ability to launch an item in the sky, and put a 30 foot.in the sky of a color. And when they came to us for the celebration of our national anthem, it was at Fort McHenry, which is in Baltimore, which is the area that Francis Scott Key, actually penned our national anthem. So we propose to them to put an American flag in the sky that's 700 feet wide by 500 feet high, right at Fort McHenry. And they gave us they commissioned us to do that, and to sit there and watch that flag unfurl in the sky in front of the front of the fort, to commemorate our 200th anniversary of our national anthem was, that was a special moment in my life, because all of the design and the engineering that it took to create that and it it came off, like perfectly it looked so spectacular.

Nick VinZant 26:48

This is the last one for me. What's the next thing like what's the future

Phil Grucci 26:53

Oh, you know, something, what the future is right now was where we're where we're putting a lot of our resources on the environment. Right so fireworks, when they go up in the sky, they burst and went up it goes up comes back down to the ground paper or whatever they're made with or whatever they made some of it burns up. So we're we're working very strongly very hard and investing a lot to to reduce the carbon footprint to to make the debris that comes down biodegradable, it is biodegradable now because it's all paper, but make it such that it can be molded, you know, with similar to the way you mold plastic, but yet it's not plastic, we don't use any plastics in our fireworks, because you know, over the waterways and things like that it's not it's not healthy for the environment. So we're going down the path there. We're also going down a path in technology where some of its on the business side which is boring, you know, the production management, all that good stuff, but on the fire, specifically, to be able to address something, put the address, so when you've loaded into the mortar, you don't have to have any wires attached to it you just loaded it into mortar very quickly and the firing systems find those shells, you know, with RFID technology and things like that. to the audience, it's not really it's not really seen but it but to the for the efficiencies and safety it's it's it's an advancement for us. And then we're always developing things like the Pyro drone, like the microchip and things like that. So the audience does appreciate those new and innovative scenes. So right sometimes gets get going in multiple directions. Fortunately, we have a factory that of Virginia, we have just under 200 people in our factory in Virginia so we could develop and make our own fireworks without you know, off having go offshore and get made in in Europe or into in China or Asia. So it's exciting, exciting. But another part of our business is actually in simulation manufacturing products for our Department of Defense. So you know, hand grenades simulators, and mortar simulators and things like that. Fireworks have a great synergy. Bang smoke flash, right loud noises. So we make all these training devices that are not lethal. And then we can train the troops on the delay time of throwing a hand grenade and the bank without having the lethal the lethality of the of the shrapnel. So that's another part of our business that's actually saved us during the COVID periods because our factory was essential. And when the fireworks displays basically stopped in 2020 a lot of our employees we moved them down to Virginia to sustain their employment while we were going through this 2020 horror of of COVID.

Nick VinZant 29:36

America loves fireworks. But what country likes fireworks the most.

Phil Grucci 29:42

America has one I could tell you I don't know. You know there's a lot of there's a you saw last year in 2020 if anyone of any neighborhood that I know of this last year just opened up, you know to shooting their own firework shows because of you know being pent up in house and things like that. I guess the the other one would be maybe Spain, you know, Spain does some pretty impressive firework displays, China naturally on their Chinese New Year, they have huge firework shows coast to coast, although they're, they're starting to suppress having those kind of, you know, they in China, there are no regulations or were no regulations, the public can go out in the middle of the street and display something as large as what we would when we would produce right in the room, you know, on one of our professional displays, but they were having, you know, many, many injuries, and they started to cut down on it. So, but I think I think the United States is, by and large, the United States consumes the most fireworks in the world in the consumer fireworks science. So the public, the general public, is only I think two states in the country that do not allow fireworks, the majority of the other states all allow some form of firearms. So it's very popular here. And I suspect this fourth of July, you'll see quite a lot of activity out there. I just asked you to please make sure whatever anybody that's listening, don't do it. If it's illegal, it's not worth it right now with the security of the of the world and the country. And you know what we're going through right now, if you are caught with fireworks illegally in your community, you could be in a lot of trouble and it's not worth it go to we do a professional show, or only use the consumer fireworks that are legal in your area in your community.

Nick VinZant 31:26

I want to thank Phil so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have a link to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, and Instagram. And we have also included his information in the episode description. Do you trip Do you trim your armpit hair? Yes, I shave it all off. Actually. you shave it straight off.

Celebrity Publicist Danielle Sabrina

From actors and athletes to musicians and thought leaders, Celebrity Publicist Danielle Sabrina can turn talent into a star. We talk celebrities, building a brand and the unique mindset that took her from a high school dropout to the head of one of Hollywood’s leading public relations agencies. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Bread.

https://www.instagram.com/daniellesabrina7 (Danielle Sabrina Instagram)

https://tribebuildermedia.com (Tribe Builder Media)

https://www.facebook.com/daniellesabrinaofficial (Danielle Sabrina Facebook)

Interview with Celebrity Publicist Danielle Sabrina

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, celebrities and bred,

Danielle Sabrina 0:20

a publicist can also help with like image and branding and like, oh, here, you know, why don't you polish yourself up a little bit here? Why don't you go to this party? Why don't you, you know, make an appearance here, let me get you on this red carpet. And you have to be in a space of receiving. And if you can't be receiving and you're constantly letting that flow come out, you're not you're like you're never replenishing yourself. And people can feel that and nothing comes to you, you have to go out and get everything.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So we're going to do something a little bit different. In this episode, we're going to have one guest but talk about two distinct topics. Our first guest is a celebrity publicist, who has worked with some of the biggest names out there, and really specializes in helping celebrities build a brand. But she also has a unique business mindset that has really allowed her to grow these businesses and have a good life outside of them as well. This is celebrity publicist, Danielle, Sabrina, what makes a good celebrity publicist?

Danielle Sabrina 1:36

Um, no, I think building relationships with people is the same no matter whether, you know, you're trying to just network sales, whatever it is, you know, you want to be as authentic as possible. I mean, I think it doesn't necessarily have to be like a good celebrity, it like just being a good publicist, having a strong handle on what it takes to move a person or brand, how to communicate effectively. And your ability to build relationships are is so important.

Nick VinZant 2:07

How is working with a celebrity different than like doing public relations or publicist work for, say, a brand

Danielle Sabrina 2:15

it's different in that, with a celebrity, you're not so much on, you're doing more like story control, a lot of times, you know, so you want to really help guide that narrative. Most of the time, you know, press are pretty interested in speaking to celebrities and seeing what's going on. So making sure that you know, when you are announcing something, or, you know, maybe that somebody is putting out a new product, or they're starting a business, that that narrative is there. And when you're working with a brand, you're really building relationships and telling their story, but also building them up as a thought leader. Whereas with somebody who's already kind of established,

Nick VinZant 2:57

why is that important with a celebrity to control the narrative of it?

Danielle Sabrina 3:02

Well, because sometimes, you know, what they're doing is really important and can have a big impact, but their, their status as a celebrity can outshine that. So they might be doing, you know, in an initiative within a nonprofit, or, you know, something that could have a tremendous impact if you want this spotlight to be on what that impact is, and not necessarily the celebrity themselves.

Nick VinZant 3:24

What do you think makes you good at it?

Danielle Sabrina 3:27

Um, I have a lot of different experience. So I used to be a trader, that I worked in the IPO space, and then I did business intuitive work. So and I've had my own businesses, this isn't my first business. So I feel that I have a like, a very, like vast understanding of the different components. And I, I built my own brand and marketed my own self, just to make sure that, you know, I'm not talking about something I haven't already done myself.

Nick VinZant 3:57

When did you kind of transition into working with celebrities? Was that something that you wanted to do? Or was that something that just kind of happened?

Danielle Sabrina 4:04

It just kind of happened on its own, I never set out to, you know, specifically work with celebrities or anything, it just happened. We have like an associate like a niche with people who are celebrities in particular, who are launching businesses or products. So that's, like, that's an area of ours. We're like, we just Excel really well. And I think that came from like my business development background, my marketing background. And then combining all of that together. There's not a lot of publicists that I know of that specialize in that particular area,

Nick VinZant 4:36

how kind of has the business changed since you started,

Danielle Sabrina 4:40

it used to be very much like, Oh, you get into this publication and it will drive your business forward. Like, you know, you get into the, you know, the Wall Street Journal, New York Times and all of a sudden, like sales are flying in and, but there's so much content out there. Now. Brands really need to bring bring that back in house and think about how they're like going about their thought leadership instead in and be more creative and create pieces, whether it's like their own thought leadership pieces, or, you know, think about the expertise that they're sharing with the media. And it's less about what the company's doing. And it's more about who the people are, that are in the company, the challenges that they've overcome, how they can inspire others versus like, hey, look at me and what I'm doing.

Nick VinZant 5:27

Do you think the media in general is more important now? Or less important? Now, because people can kind of create their own? Right, like the celebrity or whoever the brand can just put out their own statement? Do they need the media anymore?

Danielle Sabrina 5:43

Yeah, it's still definitely has that external validation and the right. If you align with the right writer, the right publication and the right messaging, it can drive sales to your business. Absolutely. So you need to have those outlets that remain unbiased. And are, you know, their goal is to put out great content, because audiences follow that. And not many brands are willing to do that, that their content is going to be very much centered around driving business.

Nick VinZant 6:14

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure, person you were starstruck to meet.

Danielle Sabrina 6:24

You know, I might have been, it might have been Mike Tyson, because I feel like he's been such, like, there's been so many different perceptions of him. And I don't know if I was starstruck, but it was more just it was such an interesting experience meeting him, because it was so different than what I anticipated. So it was there's a lot, you know, there's people that I've met, like summaries or exactly how I thought they would be, you know, like, that's exactly how I would that they thought they were exactly, I wasn't surprised. But with Mike Tyson, I, I was just really surprised how connected to the university is how spiritual he is. And how insightful about life, he is, because I just kind of pictured this guy who

Nick VinZant 7:07

is, you know, while partying like fighter is what I had, thinking maybe was gonna be walking into, who is generally harder for you to kind of work with as a client, a person who is really famous, a person who is kind of famous, or a person who is just starting out and has like a little bit of fame.

Danielle Sabrina 7:32

There's many factors in that, but the client that is most difficult to work with, in general is one that thinks like that, is very controlling. And once you know, it's just like, this is what we want. And like this is this is how it's going to be done. And when you get someone like that, it's really difficult for the brilliance in a campaign to come out. Because everything becomes very tactical. And the creative starts getting squeezed out.

Nick VinZant 8:03

What do you do when someone isn't as famous as they think they are?

Danielle Sabrina 8:08

Um, it depends on how that's coming out, if that's coming out in their attitude towards press, in their entitlement towards press or, you know, like having, thinking that, you know, they deserve to be flown out in a private jet for an interview or, you know, some, something, you know, just outrageous requests. That has to be a discussion, because I'm not going to expose my relationship to people who I value and help support my business because someone might not be self aware enough to be like, it really comes back to like, it's not okay to treat people like that. That's really what it comes back to you. So do you think some things are more famous than they are, that's probably coming out in a way, I shouldn't have to do this, or they're lucky to talk to me or you know, like that type of energy. And that type of energy isn't gonna result in anything good. It's going to if anything upset the person on the other end, which is the writer or the reporter, most interesting campaign you think you worked on, there is one that we're working on, that I'm working on right now that I'm excited about, because the founder of the company is very forward thinking and he's just really cool. And we're going to do a series with him and his daughter. He has his eight year old daughter, and it's this like driving app. So it's not you know, it's an insurance driving habits. were producing a whole series based on like conversations with him and his daughter and the places they've been, and she's this just really cool eight year old when you're in the kind of the celebrity publicists world, is it a thing where they come to you. you recruit them, like how does that process and then generally work when you get new clients. Um, this already said it can come either way. Like, I don't really recruit celebrities at all. So I prefer that either find me on their own or they come in through a referral. Because I like to have some sort of trust established or something where like, you know, either competence or trust already established,

Nick VinZant 10:09

what is generally easy to manage easier to manage a celebrities rise or a celebrities fall,

Danielle Sabrina 10:17

I mean, it's obviously easier to manage the rise, it's a little more hectic, it's the Fall is something that is that if they did something like domestic violence or something like that, I think there's a better publicists out there that they can work with to help support them in that downfall. Because I just like, that just doesn't align with me, I don't care who it is. I don't think you really like if they're working with a publicist, they're probably not going to be going backwards during that time. It's probably they already went there. It's like, not like, on the way up, like, yeah, of course, if you're part of them, because you're building their brand, but they're, you're not gonna I would be like, if you weren't as a publicist, and your client is going down.

Nick VinZant 11:05

You're not a good publicist for very long, right. Like, what's happening that like? We wouldn't Would you say that in general, right? Like, not specifically you But in general, in that this kind of an industry? Can the publicist make someone a star? Right, like, this person would be a famous actor, if only they could get the right publicist.

Danielle Sabrina 11:29

I mean, they just, it depends on what the talent themselves are, like, what is happening, if they're a publicist can definitely start building up that, like, get that buzz and that momentum going. So if the talent is already there, they're already a buy, but they're, you know, they already have the whole piece. A publicist can also help with like, image and branding, and like, oh, here, you know, why don't you polish yourself up a little bit here? Why don't you go to this party? Why don't you, you know, make an appearance here, let me get you on this red carpet. Let me start building some stuff, and then show you how to leverage it. Like, let's make sure we're posting this on social posts that you're wanting to talk about this, like, so you are guiding them. And you can like, yeah, that can absolutely help you grow your whatever it is, if you're an actor, that's your business, you know, like, that's your craft. So but I mean, if you're not like, if the foundation isn't there, like you can't turn someone into like a star, if there are, but they're not a good actor.

Nick VinZant 12:26

So let's switch gears really quick. You have this remarkable story of going from a high school dropout, to working in a variety of different fields, starting your own business that was named one of the best PR companies, and you're a mentor with Entrepreneur Magazine, when people come to you for business advice, wondering how did you do this? What do you tell them?

Danielle Sabrina 12:50

I talked a lot about like energy, how to like utilize the energy of the universe, into your business, how to break like how to recognize when something is a limiting belief, and how to feel through something that like when to stop pushing through, because there's like resistance and how you can look at that. And like that can end up saving you a lot of money in your business, it can help you to not make decisions that you're going to have to go back and fix anyway, I talked about how like, I love talking about how important it is to just be your authentic self. And sometimes that's a process and like, how you can really manifest incredible abundance in your life, both financially and just happiness and joy. Like I had never worked fewer hours than I do now. And I've never had more money. So I've never had more as much joy and stability in my life as I do now than when I was grinding and like just work, work, work work plugging away plugging away. It was like, always such a force, you know, and now things just fall together. Like I barely have to like, I can just have the thought and it almost happens immediately. So I like to that's my passion personally, like that's trained my team. That's how like, when I hire new staff, we talk about all this stuff is way more important than any of the tactical stuff.

Nick VinZant 14:17

When you built your when you built your businesses, what do you think kind of really contributed to your success in that regard?

Danielle Sabrina 14:26

My ability to work with the universe, that's what made me successful, because, and I never really became like action definitely will get you there, but it's only going to get you so far. So you're going to find at some point, like, you're probably telling yourself like once I get here, then I can relax. Then I can have fun, you know, then I can do this. And everything like any of the abundance that you do have in your life that you're getting like is resulted in like, you know, probably way harder. work then and it's necessary. And I think a lot of people don't have any balance because of that. And then you just find yourself like very disconnected.

Nick VinZant 15:10

You know, it always seemed to be a thing for me like growing up, you could just work hard, work hard, work hard, keep your nose down, keep your nose down, keep your nose down, keep going. Do you think that's really successful and email,

Danielle Sabrina 15:20

you don't need to do that. That's what there's, there's literally everything is energy. And if you can align, it's like, if you want something, and it's right here and your energy is right here, you'll get it. But if what you if what you want is right here, and you are like either grinding too hard, or like down here, you're low vibing, like you will not align to it. So it has to be perfect. And you have to be in a space of receiving and if you can't be receiving and you're constantly letting that flow come out. You're not you're like you're never replenishing yourself. And people can feel that and nothing comes to you. You have to go out and get everything. And now like, I don't, it's been a while since I've had to like, anytime I find myself like I need to like, you know, do this, I have to work harder this like it's never resulted in anything that was great. The things that are great just kind of happen, organically.

Nick VinZant 16:23

To play lady, a little bit of devil's advocate, so to speak, do you think? Is it really the energy of the universe? Or do you think that at some level, you're just kind of, you're just following the thing that you really want to do?

Danielle Sabrina 16:41

Well, you can think like that, following the thing that you really want to do. If your heart center, if you are centered, and you truly are in alignment with that, it will come to you and it will be a great fun process. And that's how you know that you are in alignment to it. But if it's not a fun process, if it is extremely unpleasant, if it feels like you're just like, you know, on a hamster wheel, or it's a lot of work for not as much return, you know, like, how are you really in alignment with it? Or is that the only path that you know or that you knew to get you there?

Nick VinZant 17:18

When did you kind of figure out that this was the approach that you wanted to take.

Danielle Sabrina 17:24

When I missed most of my trip my daughter's childhood because I was working crazy, insane hours building this building someone else's business. But regardless of what I was doing, I reached a financial success point, I didn't feel any different, nothing changed, my house got bigger, my car got more expensive, my vacations, got more elaborate. bills were a little easier to pay, then nothing else changed. Except for I missed, like having fun. I was tired all the time. I was like burnt out all the time, I was just going through the motions a lot. And then looking back on that none of that stuff mattered. I don't even talk to that person who own that business. I don't even have anything to do in the financial space. Like none of it matters.

Nick VinZant 18:09

When I kind of hear that. It's like against my nature. I feel like the way that I was brought up. Mm hmm. Do you run into that more with men are more with women?

Danielle Sabrina 18:21

With exactly what you're saying for sure. with men with women, it's more guilt driven. So they're more like, I can't imagine thinking you know, living like because it feels like they're like they feel they have so much guilt. Usually guilt for not being with their kids, though for not working harder. Guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt, we're like, yes, men are like very provider driven. So they're like, work hard, work hard, work hard. I'm the provider. Like, that's what gives me you know, like, that's me fulfilling my role. So yeah, you're writing for sure, on that side. But people who really want to have like larger than life experiences, and people who know that there's something more for them out there. Even if they don't know, even if they don't quite understand what I'm saying, or they don't quite like, get it. They're open enough to realize like, okay, there might be something to this. And let me just, maybe dip my toes into it and start proving it for myself, which is what I always recommend, like, I always say like, it's up to you whether you want to listen to me or not. I'm going to share with my experience and what it's done for my life and people that I love that has chosen to like look at things a little differently. And the universe will deliver signs.

Nick VinZant 19:38

That's pretty much all the questions that I have what's coming. You think there's anything you think that we missed or what's coming up next for you?

Danielle Sabrina 19:45

I'm launching a music label. Pretty cool. I'm also going to be producing a feature film with an award winning director. So I'm really excited about that as well.

Rodeo Clown Brinson James

As a Rodeo Clown, Brinson James travels the world entertaining crowds and protecting cowboys. We talk dodging 2,500lb bulls, growing up on the road and the best rodeos. Then we countdown the Top 5 Western Movies.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100046780853468 (Brinson James Facebook)

https://www.instagram.com/brinsonjames (Brinson James Instagram)

Interview with Rodeo Clown and Entertainer Brinson James

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, rodeo clowns and western movies,

Brinson James 0:22

and I stood on top of my clown barrel while the bullfighters brought the ball over to my clown doll as fast as they could. And I jumped over the bull while he ran past me. So only thing I'm thinking is jump as high as you can and run as fast as you can. And actually the bookable industry is so big. They're a bull sold at the there's just a huge bucking bull sale in Las Vegas every year, and a bull sold there. He was a two year old bull. He's never had a cowboy on his back. But he sold for $1.2 million.

Nick VinZant 1:03

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest travels all over North America, entertaining crowds and protecting cowboys. And he has some fascinating stories about what it's like to face off against a 2500 pound bowl, how you can keep crowds entertained, and where you can find the best rodeos in the world. This is rodeo clown and entertainer Brinson, James, Was this something that you always wanted to do? Or was this something that just happened?

Brinson James 1:44

No, it was definitely something I've always wanted to do my my dad was also a rodeo clown growing up so I don't know if it was something that I always wanted to do or it was something I had to do. It was kind of in my blood then we I was born to do it.

Nick VinZant 1:58

What do you like the most about it?

Brinson James 2:01

To travel and meeting all new people and making new friends but my biggest thing is I love to go out and make new friends and have fun in different places. And with this job, you only only get to work in a two hours every Friday and Saturday usually or sometimes we have no Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday events sometimes like that, but you only get to work two hours a day. So throughout the rest of the day we got to do something fun so that's my excuse to get out and you know it's almost like a vacation but you getting paid as well.

Nick VinZant 2:29

Can this be a full time living?

Brinson James 2:30

It is so actually this is my full time job since COVID I had to do a couple little small jobs here around the house but they're actually I'm quitting those because it's coming back to rodeo season in blue, red and Tom because almost all year people ask you know does rodeo or our brains have a season and it actually is nonstop all year long? winter time we just go indoors Are you pretty much guaranteed to get hurt in some way?

Nick VinZant 2:58

Maybe not rushed to the hospital go to the doctor kind of hurt. But are you going to get hurt pretty much every rodeo

Brinson James 3:05

me my job there so the road the the job of the rodeo clown 20 years ago, 30 years ago was a real big job because they had to be funny, tell jokes, do comedy acts throughout the whole rodeo. And then when it came down time for the bull riding, they put on the pads and they were serious and they protected the Cowboys once they fell off the bull. And that was the job of the rodeo clown throughout the whole rodeo for a long time. But now since probably know the later 90s, early 2000s it's really split to do different jobs. You have your crazy Daredevil that are just looking for that high energy bullfighters that will are absolutely nuts they put on the pads and now they're cowboy bodyguards they were literally jumped on a bull's head to save another cowboy or did you have your rodeo entertainers which can be funny can talk on a microphone can no handle a crowd can keep up keep a crowd you know no busy no when something goes on and stuff like that. So it's really split to two jobs because some people can be funny and some people aren't they're devils so that so I've really split and get to the funny side just because really they get paid a lot more they do it which is which is crazy someone who risked their life by putting on pads and protecting another human being gets paid way less than the guy that's out there just picking this up and making fun

Nick VinZant 4:35

now did you start out kind of doing the the more kind of rodeo bullfight getting the way the bull stuff and then say like no,

Brinson James 4:42

My dad did. My dad was a rodeo clown My dad was the rodeo clown that did both back in the day before I was born. He was the comedy clown did all types of jokes acts but then when it came down to bullfighting he put on the pads and protect the Cowboys but then once I was born He really started to move away from that aspect of protecting the cowboys and just really became more of a comedy clown and pushed me in that direction as well. Because again, you can't make a really a super good great living on protecting cowboys you're guaranteed just like you're gonna say there's guaranteed to get hurt every single rodeo almost when your clown you're way out there in the arena you're either up on the fence or in the crowd having fun is that to two totally different jobs now that I can step around the ball every now and then I've done it just to say I've done it but I like to say out there with all the rest of the people have fun.

Nick VinZant 5:39

So like when you go to a rodeo what's kind of like your staple of like what is the role what do you what are you doing as an entertainer when

Brinson James 5:46

my kind of style is a little bit different than everybody else's. I really like to keep our high energy I love to go out in the crowd and have fun with the crowd and get everybody on the edge of their seat because these bull riders and bullfighters that I've been out there and watching and part of the event they've told me before Hey man when you get the crowd to screaming and are cheering is at the top of their lungs, I feels like I can do anything the bull riders tell me that it feels like they can ride you know any bore any animal that is possible. So that's where I really kind of am trying to fit in is I'm just trying to get that crowd up to the higher energy where we can see some awesome bull rides or some awesome horse riding wherever we or event we're having the rodeo and so I'd come out there and just have a more of a high energy dance. I do a lot of dancing. I big big with dance and I love music. So that's pretty much my thing as we go out there. Have fun, get them clap and get up dancing and make sure everybody is going to danger have a good time when they come to the show.

Nick VinZant 6:49

Okay, but tell the truth. Tell the truth. The guys, the rodeo guys who are out there scaring away the bull. Do they look at you like Look at that guy just jumping around. Right is Is there any Is there any on animosity there? Is there any kind of like write

Brinson James 7:09

me and the bullfighters are usually we are the best of buds but there is a little spot where they don't like so bullfighters in the New Age bullfighters now that are taking it seriously because they're an action sport and they're protecting lives. They don't like to be called the rodeo clown. So so just your town folks and people that are just coming that aren't your normal people that see rodeo all the time. They go over there. It's a rodeo call video call. And they these guys are they're pretty much action sports. You know, they're they're crazy to jump in front of these wild animals. So they don't really fit see themselves as being a rodeo clown. So they kind of Yeah, and I'll make fun. Yeah, he's the clown. All right. So yeah, there's a little there's a little bit of back and forth there. But ya know, you're usually just a virgin and mostly helping each other out. Actually, last weekend I was in Tennessee at a rodeo and I stood on top of my clown barrel, while the bullfighters brought the ball over to my clown barrel as fast as they could. And I jumped over the bull while he ran past me. So there's kind of a tag team of all of us working together. But ya know, it's almost like a big team out there.

Nick VinZant 8:26

What's that? Like when you got a bowl which I'm gonna just gonna throw out a number I'm correct me 2000 pounds.

Brinson James 8:32

2500 is usually running at 2500 is usually those the nice big ones that they wanted those rodeos? The smallest that you'll ever see it at a rodeo or Bull Run is maybe 1800? And yeah, no, so only thing I'm thinking is jump as high as you can and run as fast as you can. It's no Yeah, no, it's your only instinct kicks in and the only because I've been around it my whole life. And I kind of have seen the professionals do it. I've seen everybody cut that the ball growing up. And I kind of know the gist of how to get around the the animals. So I kind of trust myself and I trust the bullfighters and my friends that are in the arena also to get my back just in case something goes wrong.

Nick VinZant 9:14

What would you say to somebody who says like, Look, this is abusing the animals? This is taking advantage of them. This isn't something that should be happening. What for your, from your perspective as somebody who is there? What would be your response to that?

Brinson James 9:33

Yes. So a lot of times at the rodeos people come up and enter asking those things or confronting up with with information. And a lot of the information is false just because they were fed wrong information. Lots of people think that we tie something around their testosterone producing anatomy. And that is the farthest from the truth. We could we couldn't first off Jim The men that are listening in if yours were tied, would you want to run jump in book? No. In the horse riding a lot of the horses that we buck and rodeo are female. These horses are horses and bulls that are in the rodeo world are worth a lot a lot of money there and they're bred to be buggers. They're bred to be just like the racehorse business out his. His dad was a racehorse, his mom was a racehorse so his whole racehorse DNA is bred to run fast. These bulls are the exact same way his dad was a bucking bull. His granddad was a bucking bull. And his great great granddad was a bucking bull and his mom, but also, so it's all bloodlines, they're all worth a lot of money. So if you hurt one of these animals, where they don't want to buck, that's actually money coming out of you know, the owners pocket because he's taken that bull note to different rodeos or bull runs across the country and making money. Whenever he books and stuff like that, they get an out fee, and if they bump the guy off, sometimes they get even more money. So it's all about how much money these bulls can make for their owners. And it's a big, big business right now a lot of retired bull riders that are no just getting out of game a little bit are still saying in the whole rodeo and bull riding world by owning bucking bulls and growing the bucking bull industry. And actually, the bucking bull industry is so big. There a bull sold at the there's this huge bucking bull sale in Las Vegas every year. The last one that they had I was in 2019 I do believe and a bull sold there, he was a two year old bull. He's never had a cowboy on his back. But he sold for $1.2 million. He's never you never had a cowboy on his back. And that and so when they don't only they wait till three years old until they bubbles with cameras on their back. They're all still a little too young before then. So it's all about that now he since he looks so good, and he won the award and he's they sold him for that much money. Now he can produce a lot more bucking bulls and make so much more money off of him. So it's a huge, huge business. And when you go in with huge, huge money, there's no way we can just maybe accidentally hurt these animals where it can't happen like that. Because that's the biggest thing is we protect these animals, we feed them the best feed that they got, we take care of them with the trailers, and that are the top the top of trailers that are going, No, they're all up to par with everything they have to be. There's always veterinarians there at the event checking out the animals before and after is a big big thing because of course, a lot of people think that we injure these animals, but when some people says Oh, you're you're hurting him by poking them with a stick to get them to go through the gates. Gee, he just got kicked by another ball back there. There's no there's no way I could do any type of slinging of a bat hit this ball that would compare to this other bull hooking them with another horn. So I mean, there's them just traveling it or standing in it pinned together is way more of a no they get battled around way more than anything we could ever do.

Nick VinZant 13:33

I honestly when you said how much that bowl sold for I was thinking like, Alright, it's gonna be like 15 Yeah, so can be like 20, which I would have thought that's

Brinson James 13:40

the normal bulls at the lower end just if you go down the road and check out your local rodeo. Though those bulls average if you're just selling them to other rodeo places around 10 to 20 10,000 9015. The good ones Of course, you want those that jump the kicks been and that are hard to ride. And the harder the red, the more money they cost. So yeah, so but there's some of them that are up there in the PBR. They're on TV right now. They're making a good bit of money traveling around with four or five bowls. And they're traveling all around the country making money with these animals. So it's awesome to see. And it's a big big industry that is just keeps keeps growing.

Nick VinZant 14:24

Do you think like Did you ever see yourself? Not doing this? Right? Is this like is this the kind of it's just like a phase job? Right? Like you're gonna do this for 510 years ago.

Brinson James 14:36

I don't think so. Just because it's so much in my blood now have been grown up with it. I've literally just eat sleep breathe rodeo because we were on the road. traveling from rodeo to rodeo growing up. We didn't really have a home we just traveled to rodeo to rodeo so it's something that I think about all the time. And it's something that and I love being in front of people and entertaining too. That's my biggest thing is I love making people laugh. I used to get in trouble in school being the class clown but take that teachers I'll get paid at it now.

Nick VinZant 15:07

When you know you Britain, you mentioned like a mascot and I'm kind of thinking give me some perspective in this right like I've been to sporting events. And you know there's a mascot there he's over there doing so that right? But when you do a rodeo are people like proportionately paying more attention to you than somebody like myself would be paying attention to the mascot at like a pro sports game? I do believe so. Right? Are you more in? Are you more involved in the overall

Brinson James 15:33

I am I just because I'm thinner stage for two hours, I'm right in front of you. There's nothing else to look at, except for the eight seconds while a bull riding is going on with our action in our eyes, turn to the button, shoot me watch the action. Then after that we have about two minutes of downtime. And that's why they're getting paid to come to the event. I feel the lows of the performance whenever we're going down and a Broadway style or something like that. I set out there right in the middle of the arena and take control of and take time. You know, either with dancing with jokes with an act, I trick rope with the last news, I cracked lips and do tricks. And so I just and that's my thing is to distract people from actually what's going on. While we can get some stuff done, and then keep the flow of the show going.

Nick VinZant 16:25

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Let's do it. Okay, so obviously, all the rodeos you go to are great. They're all fantastic. Which is, which is the one that you're like, man. Whoo, I got I got to have it tonight. This is this is the one

Brinson James 16:46

I got to one. So yes, just like you said, I love every rodeo. I love every event I go to I don't think I have a worst one. But there is one that if you love rodeo or you love action sports, you just need to go to Quebec, Canada, there's a little bitty small town that is called St. teat, Quebec. It's a I think, probably three hours north of the border. And it's a small town that has a population of 1200 people. But when a festival is called a festival, Western de St. htet. And it's all French, because Quebec is all French. And it's 10 days long. And 800,000 people come through this small town of 1200 people for a festival. And it's a 10 day rodeo every night. Well. There's no hotels in the south. So that many people flow through this town and say in their campers intense in their horse trailers. And they've completely sell out every yard, every backyard, every side yard every parking lot in a 10 mile radius of this town. And literally, they have an 8000 seat stadium right in the middle of the town. And they only have a rodeo there once a year. It's every September. And it's amazing. There's no energy like show, there's no show in the whole world that can match the energy of this show. Just because everybody in that culture are very outgoing. They want to do more. They're larger than life. They're drinking. That's another thing they love to drink out there. Yeah. So And literally, so usually the the more the lower time times of the event, you know, the the boring types of times of the show is when we take the tractor out there and we drag the arena real fast. Well, not here. Literally the guy says on the microphone in French who knows exactly what he's saying. But he says something like, All right, everybody stand up. Let's go, let's have some fun. And 8000 people stand up and start stomping their feet. And it's a 10 built building, and the whole building starts to rattle. And I just go out there and I dance for two minutes while that attractor drags and they play fireball. And it's high energetic. People are screaming dancing, literally right before the show, I go out there before we have any type of rodeo events. I go out there just before we start the event, and I walk out there and I asked him to clap their hands. By no microphone, I don't have a microphone, I don't speak French. So I just walk in the middle and I just kind of give you a hand signal of Please clap your hands and 8000 people's clap their hands immediately. And then I'll stop just by putting the hand up and then I'll start stomping my feet in the middle arena and then eight And people just stomp their feet there is so responsive. So I've worked quite a bit all over the world, Australia, Canada, Canada, New Mexico, Mexico, of the I mean, it's been quite a bit all over the place and there's not one venue or event that I can even come close to this one in Canada.

Nick VinZant 20:23

That's crazy. That's cool. Like I want.

Brinson James 20:26

That sounds like a great, amazing, it's absolutely please check it out on YouTube. It's a festival Western to st it. They have some crazy, crazy new events that they added to rodeo. And they actually have so in Western Canada is the Calgary Stampede was the largest outdoor show on earth. Literally. It's huge, huge, huge rodeo 30,000 people are sitting in the sands looking at the rodeo actually. And it is it's one of the best rodeos in the world. But still, the energy doesn't compare to Eastern Canada at the St. T. French show. It's absolutely crazy. Just check it out on the videos. It's amazing.

Nick VinZant 21:05

Best rodeo song.

Brinson James 21:08

Best rodeo song. So there's a couple different ones that if so, rodeo song. I for me, I kind of feel like I've been everywhere man. I've been everywhere man cuz rodeos are everywhere. And yeah, I mean, when I think about it, I'm I'm traveling every single week and seeing someplace to do and I'm on the rodeo trail. And that's kind of something for me is on the rodeo trail and you're on the road. I mean, on the road again, of course that's another good one. But but so now it's kind of this kind of new, which I changed up and we're trying to get away from the country that a lot of these shows now they're trying to PVR the professional bull riders, they rarely ever play country music now. It's like a rock concert with some bulls involved. It's really crazy. So we do a lot of you know, hardcore rock and roll a lot of a lot of rap. But there's not there's one song that we play almost at every rodeo. And it brings everybody together that pretty much I think it brings the whole event together. And it's journey don't stop believing. Oh, yeah, that's the classic, that it brings everybody together and we're all you know what I mean? It you're just you're all together as one and yeah, you see right now you know,

Nick VinZant 22:38

you can't you can't help living in

Brinson James 22:43

every, almost every show. And and that's the one of our highlights of the event. We do a sing along and get the whole crowd on it. And when there's 10,000 people singing, is there's no there's no show like it.

Nick VinZant 22:56

scariest bull that you've ever seen.

Brinson James 22:59

So I've had a quite a few instances with some rules and some scariness in the years. So the first thing that jumps in my mind, every bill is scary. I mean, every bullet can get you down and hurt you really bad. But when I was 18 years old, we were in Boston, Massachusetts, or rodeo, and my dad and I were rodeo clown team or growing up and we're there working the show together. And this bill Oh, ran out to the middle of the cowboy fell off immediately, and then kind of made a lap around the arena will when he kind of came over by us. I've jumped up the fence. And my dad did the same, but he didn't get up high enough. And he hooked his legs out from underneath him. And he went down on the ground and the ball kind of, you know, hooked him on the ground a little bit. And when the ball went to leave, it wasn't like he was just super mean. But he put his head in the right spot. And he actually put his horn through my dad's pocket of his rodeo clown pants. So the horn, just stabbed right through the pocket. And my dad's rodeo clown baggies, which are the bigger no big size. Yeah, yes. We're hooked to his head and my dad was hooked to this Bull's head for 40 seconds. And I was I was there I was 18. And what do you do this this, there's nothing you can really can do. He was hooked to his head, his pants finally came off, his shoes popped off. And after 40 seconds, he crawled over to the fence and his left shoulder was dislocated. And his right foot was broken or his ankle and his foot was kind of looking over there to the neighbors. So I mean the ball then ran out and they had to actually unwrapped the pants off of the bull's head. It was wrapped around the horn so tight and I mean if that was just The first note, bro, that stands out in my mind, you know what I mean? wreck out your dad,

Nick VinZant 25:06

when you get it obviously like you can't get inside the animal's head but like the bull is, is the bull trying to hurt people? Or is the bull just like look trying to get away from me and I happen to be a 2500 pound animal and my little nudge is gonna send you across the road

Brinson James 25:22

just like a people, they some people are, who have good attitudes, some people have a bad attitude. Some people have good days, some people have bad days, these rules are exactly the same. A lot of them, you can get back there in the pins with them and stretch them on the back or when they come by the fence. You can rub on arm and stuff like that. They're they're not mean, they know it's their job to run, jump and buck. And so when they get into the book and shoot and they get demand on their back, they know it's time to do their job. And so they jump in but there is sometimes a couple that will they've had a bad day. You know what I mean? And and so they'll definitely be there to come in to try to get you but usually we're working with some that are you know, they're fun that they know it's their job to jump the kick as soon as the guy comes off. Oh, we're okay. And it's time to leave.

Nick VinZant 26:15

Well, it's interesting to have such a personality, right? Yeah. Best named bull. Oh, good one for horse.

Brinson James 26:22

Horse I guess. Best name bull I've ever heard. He was from I believe he was from Wyoming and it was out there at that bowl booking calm contest that I told you about that half a million dollar bull. He didn't win but his name was close hearted. hearted.

Nick VinZant 26:47

It's like an equal mix of fantastic and terrible

Brinson James 26:52

Maybe like a 13 year old boy at heart. That's why that was my favorite name. But um, I think that's the best personal that pops in my mind.

Nick VinZant 27:02

It's definitely better than like the jif or something you know, I mean, like it sticks in your mind. Oh

Brinson James 27:08

yeah. That's a good that's a great one. I'm gonna like the best build that is still bucking that and is in the PBR professional bull riders. His name is airtight and that bull can really get some airtime he jumps super high and when he kicks his feet come almost directly above his head so it's a it's a really well named bull and it definitely know what's going to happen if you draw that bone to get on his back. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 27:37

right that's it guys. You're in for a rough time not like snuck

Brinson James 27:44

This is sweet don't want to go home and tell your girlfriend Hey sorry sweetie. I fell off a Buttercup.

Nick VinZant 27:51

Right right right would you get last place Buttercup What made you want to be something like you know, I'm more important to a cowboy.The belt buckle or the hat question

Brinson James 28:07

I think the belt buckle because the belt buckle is the trophy the belt buckle says I'm better than you and that and that's then that's what it is is not your Tractor Supply belt buckle that you go by on it that's got you know the horse going through the open trail but the actual belt buckles that they've won is they're they're priceless cities cowboys. And yeah you don't want to mess with the Cowboys had either but these buckles are that's why they do it is they want their name engraved in gold on a gold Douglass's that their world champion and that's that's the angle to all these cowboys. But again, though, wear cowboy hat, you don't want to jack with a gun guys probably have especially when we're out eating or dancing or hanging out afterwards. You know, that's fightin words. If you start jacking with a cowboy hat, those are expensive some cowboy hats are those three four or 500 600 bucks they're worth a lot of money and, and cowboys take it seriously.

Nick VinZant 29:12

When you're out there. Like what is what is what is your fear what scares you?

Brinson James 29:19

Um, okay, so there's a couple, the one of my biggest fears is for me not to be able to do my job properly. And so to not be able to know get the crowds attention or fill, you know, a certain spot that needs to be filled. You know, if something were to happen with a microphone or have something to happen with no props and stuff like that, of course, on my end, that's where, you know, I'm always double checking and thinking about and stuff like that. But, of course, another thing too is you know, you want to definitely in that night on a good note, so nobody getting hurt is of course the best outcome. you're fearful a little bit for your friends. But we know that these are all professionals, people that come to these games now and, and are playing, not playing a part of it. They're professionals and they know how to get out of it and get out of certain situations. So we do feel pretty comfortable and a lot of the crazy situations, but I think the biggest one is just you want to see everybody get out there, okay.

Nick VinZant 30:21

Anything that you think we missed, or what's coming up next for you.

Brinson James 30:24

Um, so there's a bunch coming up now. I mean, it's really getting to rodeo season. I mean, of course, the summertime is a little more jam packed full of events. So I'm June I'm actually every single weekend, July, me and my girlfriend we happen a little bitty Prius and we drive from Florida all the way to Gallup, New Mexico for the first weekend of July, and we do a Gallup New Mexico then on to Salt Lake City, Utah, and then back down to Texas and then Louisiana after that. And so I'm looking forward to doing a lot more here in 2021. And end of the year on a good note because it's been a pretty low for the past year, and I'm ready to turn it turn it around and make it a turn these frowns upside down it's rodeo season.