From “Christmas on Cherry Lane” to “Oy! to the World”, Screenwriter Rick Garman has written more than 40 Christmas movies. We talk writing a Christmas movie, why people both love and love to hate Hallmark Christmas movies and the best Christmas movie of all time. Then, it’s Chocolate Chip and Snickerdoodle vs. Macaroons and Gingerbread Men as we countdown the Top 5 Cookies.
Rick Garman: 01:19
Pointless: 28:56
Top 5 Cookies: 47:33
Interview with Christmas Movie Screenwriter Rick Garman
Nick VinZant 0:00
Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, Christmas movies and cookies
Rick Garman 0:20
people have this tendency to put on Hallmark Channel at the beginning of countdown to Christmas, which now starts in October, and they just put the channel on and they leave it on if I have to write another script with a cute, precocious kid in it, I'm kind of done with the so I wrote the script, a couple of revisions of the script. They did all the pre productions, set everything up, filmed, it edited, it scored, it did everything, and got it on the air in 11 weeks, on New Year's Eve, I
Nick VinZant 0:57
want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he has written more than 40 Christmas movies. This is Hallmark Christmas movie screenwriter, Rick Garman, what makes a good Christmas movie, I
Rick Garman 1:21
think that it really sort of comes down to heart. There's always this sort of element of heart that you associate with Christmas in general, and having that as a through line, having that as as an underlying foundation of what you're doing, I think that that's a requirement for a Christmas movie on some level.
Nick VinZant 1:46
Would you say that applies to not just Hallmark Christmas movies, but all Christmas movies?
Rick Garman 1:52
Yes. I mean, I think that you would have a hard time identifying any Christmas movie die hard. I mean, he's doing it to save his his ex wife, and make sure that, you know, the family can be together at the end. You know, he's, yes, he's a cop, and he's trying to get through the building. He's trying to get the bad guys and all kind of stuff. But really, it's about saving this woman that he still loves, right? So there's an element of heart in it. Pick any Christmas, any Christmas movie, and you can find that as a foundation for just about any of them.
Nick VinZant 2:31
When, when you look at more of the kind of the Hallmark Christmas type movies, is there certain things that audiences want to see, like, Oh, they're going to want to see this. I got to put this in the script. I got to put that in the script.
Rick Garman 2:43
I think the central part of it is romance. All of the Hallmark Christmas movies have some sort of a romance element to it somewhere, and that has been shown time and time again to be what the audiences seem to really want and relate to. The rest of it is you have to have Christmas. And I know that that sounds reductive, but But what I mean by that is that you're probably not going to see too many, if any, Christmas movies on the Hallmark Channel set in Hawaii. You need snow. You need. You need Christmas. You need decorations. You need. You need to be sort of immersed in that Christmas world. And some of that is just because of the nature of the stories that are being told, but some of it also is because people have this tendency to put on Hallmark Channel at the beginning of countdown to Christmas, which now starts in October, and they just put the channel on, and they leave it on, and it's, it's, it becomes almost like part of the Christmas decoration of their house. They've got the tree, they've got the lights, they've got the stockings hung on the mantle, and they've got Christmas movies playing non stop on their television. And so if you have a Christmas movie that doesn't look Christmasy, it's suddenly doesn't become part of the it's not part of it doesn't it isn't part of the Christmas decorations anymore.
Nick VinZant 4:26
That's the thing that I wanted to ask you, right? So for me, the Hallmark Christmas movies, that type of thing. It's not something that I get. But other people seem to, like, absolutely love this. Yeah. What is that kind of about? Like, why is there one group that's like, what? What is this appeal and others that, oh, that is their jam to the nth degree.
Rick Garman 4:50
These movies make people happy. It's that simple. It's It's comfort food. It's two hours where, you know nobody's going to die. You know that. But even if there is a bad guy, they're not really bad, they're just kind of misguided, and they often learn their lesson at the end of it, you know, it's going to have a happy ending. You know, they're going to wind up together in the end, it's going to end with a kiss, and in a world gone mad, I don't know how anybody can look out the window or look on the news or anything and not think that the world has gone completely insane, having those two hours of comfort of of a happy ending. It just people. It makes people feel better. And you can see that, I think, in the kinds of shows and movies that are are becoming more and more popular, these sort of feel good comedies you see a lot in comedies these days. I'm going to point to show a show like Ted lasso, you know, which has enormous heart and characters that you want to root for, and you want everything to even though it's certainly edgier than a Hallmark movie, it's a feel good show. And I think that there's more and more of that happening because people are craving that kind of entertainment.
Nick VinZant 6:22
When these get made essentially, like, what's the process? Like? How do you get started? How long does it take? All that kind of stuff?
Rick Garman 6:30
Some projects are ideas that I come up with and I pitch to the people at the network. Others are ideas that other people have come up with, and they bring to me to write. Sometimes it's a book that gets adapted. I've done a few book adaptations. Sometimes it's a rewrite of a script. So somebody else has taken a stab at writing it, and they bring it to me to change it for whatever reason. There's a million different reasons that they might do that. So the way the projects originate is all over the place, and then the length of time it takes also can be all over the place. I'm working on, like I said, a movie for Christmas for next year. We started working on that a couple of months ago, and we developed the story. The story's been sort of bouncing around, and made a few changes. We're going to probably be going to script sometime after the first year, and then there'll be a development process through that, and then eventually they will greenlight the script and set it up for production, probably next fall, and then summer or fall, and then it'll be on Christmas, but, but sometimes that is truncated enormously, because they identify a hole in their schedule, and they say, We need another. It's it's now September, and we this other movie we thought was going to go through isn't. And now we have a hole in our schedule. And so what can we plug that hole with? You?
Nick VinZant 8:05
Can you can turn a Christmas movie that fast?
Rick Garman 8:08
The fastest one that I've ever done was in a Christmas movie. It was a holiday movie. It was Royal New Year's Eve I was on many years ago with Sam page and Jesse Schramm and Cheryl lad from Charlie's Angels. They came to me. I believe when I got the okay to start writing the script, between that moment and the time it was on air, was 11 weeks holy. So I wrote the script, couple of revisions of the script. They did all the pre productions, set everything up, filmed, it edited, it scored, it did everything, and got it on the air in 11 weeks on New Year's Eve.
Nick VinZant 8:55
That seems almost impossibly fast. It's insane,
Rick Garman 8:59
and and, the it was a much better movie than it had any right to be for having been done that fast. I usually I'm I have this reputation for being and and I am a very fast writer. I can usually knock out a draft, a first draft, in a week to 10 days, and then it'll go through a couple of, you know, it'll take time for them to get all their notes, and then I'll make those revisions in another few days, maybe a week. And then that's that they will take several months. Usually, they will take a month or two in the sort of pre pre production of saying where we're going to film it. We got to cast it, we got to do all that kind of stuff. But then once they're locked, they go into pre production, it's three weeks, and then they shoot them in three weeks, and then it's anywhere from a month to two months. Is sometimes a little longer to put it all together and get it ready for air.
Nick VinZant 10:04
I don't want to come off in a way that I don't necessarily mean, if that makes any sense, but I also want to ask this question at the same time. So is there then a balance between quantity versus quality when you look at this, is there a certain aspect of like, Look, you just got to feed the beast, so to speak. Or when you sit down and make these, you're really trying to make the best movie that I could possibly make. Or is it more like that's good enough? We got to get this done. I can
Rick Garman 10:33
only speak for myself. I have never turned in a script that I didn't believe in. I mean, it's that simple. I, like I said, I write very fast, but i have i i Don't turn things in unless I believe they're good and and I will tell them, you know, I will have this to you by this date. And if I get to that date and I don't think it's ready for them to see. I'll call them up and tell them that I need to work more on this. I'm not happy with this. I'm not whatever. So, yeah, I for me, I always turn in what I believe is the highest quality product. They might not think that. They might come back and say, No, we need to throw out, you know, the entire second half and redo it. But I believe in it, and, you know, that's the best that I can do.
Nick VinZant 11:30
That makes sense, right? And like, I'm kind of operating that same sense that I can go do as good a job in five minutes as I can in an hour. Yeah. Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions. Sure, is this genre growing shrinking or staying the same? When we look at Christmas movies,
Rick Garman 11:49
I think it's I think it's grown a lot over the last few years. I think it's sort of stable right now, maybe contracting a little bit, because a lot of people tried to come in, and they saw how successful Hallmark Hallmark was at it, and decided, we can do that. We can do that better. And then they got in the game, and they're like, maybe we can't I think the one thing that is changing, and this is changing all over the entertainment industry, is the budgets. The budgets are getting smaller
Nick VinZant 12:20
for like, your average Hallmark Christmas movie, what would be the total budget for a movie like that?
Rick Garman 12:25
It really, really varies. But two to 2.5
Nick VinZant 12:30
Do they have, and I don't know whoever they could potentially be in this circumstances, but do they have kind of a formula, like a way to produce these quicker? Are there sets dedicated to, etc, etc. Like, do they have a system in terms of getting these done?
Rick Garman 12:45
There are certain places where they film a lot of these movies. They and the companies affiliated that provide content film a lot of these movies because they know that there are actors and directors and crew that are there and talented and capable and ready to go. So you won't see as often. For instance, a lot of the movies are made in Canada, in various places in Canada, a lot around Vancouver, because there's a big production foundation. There so they can just plug in quickly and make the movie and get out
Nick VinZant 13:27
your favorite Christmas movie trope, your least favorite Christmas movie trope,
Rick Garman 13:33
favorite I, you know, I have a soft spot for the cookie baking scene I really do, or the baking, whatever scene, you know, the challenge is finding new and different ways into it. There the movie that I've got that'll be on December, starting December 14. Way to the world. There is a cookie baking scene in it, but the way that we get into that scene is different and interesting and very funny in that neither of them know what they're doing and and are very intimidated by it. So, you know, I have, I have a soft spot for that. Maybe it's because I like cookies, my least favorite, I'd say if I have to write another script with a cute, precocious kid in it, I'm, I'm kind of done with the I'll do it, and I'm pretty good at it. There were actually cute kids in this movie that's coming up, but that's my, sort of, my least favorite thing to write. I like writing grown ups,
Nick VinZant 14:44
kind of using again, the proverbial they will. They come back at you and be like, Oh, but you don't have the cute, precocious kid, Oh, you don't have the wise uncle in this one. Like, are there certain things that you you got to have that character there?
Rick Garman 14:58
My original. Ideas. When I send them in, it's, it's sort of mapped. And they're, they're hopping on board with that. Every now and then they might, they they might say something like, you know, it's more likely that they'll say, get rid of a character than add a character. But again, I've done so many of these. I know sort of what you need. You need the heroine and the hero, or the hero and the hero, or the heroine and the heroine. You know, they're doing more and more movies with LGBT representation in them, but you need the two main characters. Each of them has to have some sort of a confidant, you know, so somebody that they can talk to about what's going on so they have a best friend or a sister or a mother or whatever, there needs to be somebody who's usually causing some sort of a of anxiety for them, whether that's An actual antagonist or just a circumstantial person who's doing something that's causing some of the action to happen. And then you need, as in Christmas movies, at least, you need whatever represents family, whether that's actual family or a family, you know, a chosen family, you sort of have to have those but, I don't remember ever, anybody ever coming to me and saying, Hey, we need a cute kid, or we need the mayor, or we need the woman who owns the bakery. You know, all those trope characters that get made fun of a lot. I don't remember that ever happening.
Nick VinZant 16:37
Why is there always someone coming back to their small town to find their high school or forgotten love. Why is that such a big thing?
Rick Garman 16:47
Well, first of all, there's not. Certainly there are a lot of movies that have that concept. You know, we call her, I call her the hard working career gal from the big city who comes back to the small town that exists. The trope, it's there. It's made fun of for a reason. But if you were to watch all of the hallmark movies that are on this season, last season, the last few seasons, I think you would see that in a lot fewer of them than you expect, that that is a thing that I won't say that is purposefully stayed away from. But a lot of the stories have been told why it was popular and still is done every now and then, because it's a great movie setup. You know, it has nothing to do with it being, well, we can't think of anything else. It's just a great setup because, and if you think of that front for any movie there are. I mean, the one that's popping into my head right away is Sweet Home, Alabama. Reese Witherspoon, beloved movie. She's a hard working career gal who goes from the big city, who goes back to her small hometown, you know. So it's a great setup for character development, because you have somebody who is they have a life, and they have what they think is a purpose, and the things that they love and they want and and the things that they think that they want, and they have to go back and sort of solve some issues from their past to figure out what They really do want. That's just, that's just good drama. You know what? I mean, that's, that's good storytelling. It's a great way to kick off a story. But again, there are fewer and fewer of those that you will see out there. Yeah.
Nick VinZant 18:55
I mean, that makes sense to me, right? It's something that kind of resonates with everybody in one way or another. The idea of coming back home to the place that isn't home anymore. In some way,
Rick Garman 19:05
white people go to their reunions. You know, whether it's a high school reunion or a family reunion or whatever,
Nick VinZant 19:11
do the movies deserve more or less credit? Like, do you think that people who view them as artistic expressions? Do they deserve more credit than you think that they get, or do you think that they get the right amount? Or do they think that they deserve less credit?
Rick Garman 19:26
The jokey answer is, I think it would depend on the movie. But I you know, again, I've written a lot of these movies, and I know they get made fun of a lot. I've seen all the means, please stop sending them to me. I've seen them all. I've seen all the SNL parties. I've seen them all. I don't do these movies because I'm expecting awards. I'm not doing them because I'm expecting to be rich. I'm not doing them because I want the adulation. Of millions of adoring fans. I'm doing them because I get to tell. I get to make my living as a writer number one, and I get to tell what I hope are interesting stories with interesting characters and some fun dialog and hopefully make people laugh, and again, as going back to what was saying earlier, make people happy. I say this all the time in interviews and other things as well, but the movies that I've been involved with have been seen by literally 10s of millions of people. You know, 40 some odd movies. And who gets to say that the job that they do has made 10s of millions of people happy? Who gets to say that it's a very, very small group of people on this earth who have the privilege of being able to say that and to be a part of that? You know, I think there are worse things you could do with
Nick VinZant 21:01
your life. Where do you think they go in the future? I think they're
Rick Garman 21:05
going to continue to expand in terms of their storytelling. I think you'll always have sort of the traditional Christmas movie that will always exist, but I think you're going to see different types of storytelling. Again, I point to the Cherry Lane movies, which use sort of a, this is us kind of format. So there was a lot of bouncing back and forth in time. You know, now it's 1999 now it's 1973 so different storytelling devices, I think you're going to see more and more representation and diversity in not only the types of people that are in the leads and so on and so forth, but just the overall feeling of the movie, I think you'll see more stuff about chosen family as an example. You know, you'll there will continue to be more LGBT, more of different ethnic and racial backgrounds being able to tell more stories about, you know, having a lead that's divorced instead of never married, or having a lead that has lost a spouse, as opposed to, you know, just hasn't found the right guy You know. So, being able to find more ways to tell stories and more people to tell stories about I think that that's what you're going to see in
Nick VinZant 22:48
the future. What is your worst idea for a Christmas movie? The one that, in hindsight, you were like that was that was not a good that wasn't my best.
Rick Garman 22:57
The only thing that's popping to mind is is more about the very first movie that that I did for Hallmark was a movie called Christmas and homestead, and it's about a movie crew that comes to a small town to film a Christmas movie, and the movie star falls in love with The mayor of the town. And when I pitched that, before I'd written anything for Hallmark, I had sort of a much different idea of what that movie would be, all the way down to the title, the movie that became Christmas in Homestead, its original title was shooting Christmas, and why I thought that a movie called shooting Christmas, about shooting a movie, would ever wind up there? Yeah, that was probably a bad idea, but still, however, they saw past that, and saw the idea and made the movie, and it wound up being it's still one of my favorites.
Nick VinZant 24:02
So that's, what would you say is your favorite one, favorite one that you've done in your favorite Christmas movie overall? And if they're the same thing, they're the same thing.
Rick Garman 24:11
I the ones that I always go back to. I love the Cherry Lane movies. There were four of them because, again, it was a very different storytelling device, this sort of moving through one house over many years, being able to tell 12 different stories of nine different families, all with different makeups. You know, there's an LGBT couple, there's young people and older people and divorced people and you know, so all these different stories that we got. Some of them were more about friendships than they were about romance. I'm really proud of those movies, partly because they were very, very hard to write and keep everything sort of connected. So I always mention those. I think the other one that. Sort of Beloved, and that I still enjoy is a shoe addicts Christmas. It was Candace, Cameron beret, Luke McFarlane and Gene smart. So like, how do you how do you not love a movie with Gene smart
Nick VinZant 25:16
in it? Is there a part like, oh, for me, that's the easiest part of the story to write. That's the hardest part of the story that right is there a place that you struggle and a place that you just fly through.
Rick Garman 25:27
I'm usually better at beginnings and endings than I am at middles. And I think a lot of that's case for a lot of writers, you know, trying to figure out how you make things sort of continue. I love writing the meetings and the that sort of, I have a tendency to specialize in characters who butt heads. I don't write as many where, you know, it's that sort of instant falling in love and, you know, then there's some obstacle that keeps them apart, you know, but they're, they get along, and they're all romance. I don't do that very often. The ones that I have usually have really strong banter and back and forth between the lead characters. So I'm good at that. I'm usually pretty good at ending and finding some good ways to get people to tear up, maybe, but that middle is always a challenge.
Nick VinZant 26:24
That's pretty much all the questions we got. I know you got a new movie coming out. Tell me a little bit about that. What's it about? Where can people find it? That kind of stuff,
Rick Garman 26:32
all right. It is called, are you ready? Are you holding on and you're sitting down? Is called OI to the world. I didn't pick the title, so you can either credit me, or you can either credit me, nor blame me for that, depending on where your head is at. On on a movie called oy to the world. It is debuting on Hallmark Channel on Sunday, December 14, at eight, seven central and it is a story of a across the street from each other is a church and a synagogue, and the director of the kids choir at the church and the director that has been pulled in to direct the kids choir at the synagogue, they were intense rivals. When they were kids in high school, they knew each other since they were kids, they were friends. They became rivals. They competed on everything from debate team to the student council elections, and they just fought constantly when they were kids. So they get thrown back together when something happens at the synagogue, and the congregation of the synagogue has to move into the church for the Hanukkah services, and the choirs have to get combined, and they have to wind up working together. So it's a mash up of Hanukkah and Christmas. It's I got the opportunity to see a screener the other day. I love the way this movie turned out. I am so happy with it. Brooke Dorsey and Jake Epstein are the leads all the supporting characters. I wrote it, and it made me mainly because of their delivery in the way that they they done the movie. I wrote it and I laughed out loud at times. I think it's fun and funny and different and but still has all the things you want from a holiday movie. It's got lots of heart, it's got romance, it's got some really sweet scenes. It's got family, lots and lots of family. So I'm really proud of it.
Nick VinZant 28:33
I want to thank Rick so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description, and if you want to see some of these movies that he's talking about, the YouTube version of this interview is now live. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. If someone tells you they have a couple of something, do you think they mean specifically to, like, if I said, Hey, man, I got a couple of tickets, do you think, I mean, I have exactly two tickets? Or do you just think, Oh, they've got, like, less than five
John Shull 29:19
the couple of saying is just, it's just a saying. It could literally, you could say I have a couple, and it could just be like one large thing to me.
Nick VinZant 29:27
See, this must be like a Seattle slash Washington thing, because people here, when they say I have a couple, they mean specifically two. It's the only place I've ever lived out of like five or six states that I've lived in where a couple meant specifically two, not just kind of like, Hey, I got a few of these.
John Shull 29:48
Come on. Hold on, before we keep going on this. Tell me how crappy the lions are in the University of Michigan because their coach is a terrible person. Come on. Give it
Nick VinZant 29:58
to me. Do you know that? Coach is actually from my hometown.
John Shull 30:02
I did not but I've also been telling everyone about that, and I'm like, it doesn't surprise me, because Nick's a terrible human, and so, I mean, which, listen, I don't want to go on the record and say he's a terrible human, because I don't know him. He's, he's made, like, some mistakes. I mean, you have a newborn and you're still out there messing around with your side piece. But you know what? I'm confident saying? He's probably not the greatest person. But anyways, yes, he's from Derby, Kansas, of all places.
Nick VinZant 30:32
I think that if you are running around on your pregnant wife with another woman, and then you show up allegedly at their house and try to physically harm them. I think that you can say that they're probably not the best person in the world, but I am fascinated by this story because he's from my hometown, which is a town of about 20,000 people, and he went from being the pride and joy of Derby Kansas to being a persona non grata real quick, man, life can change so fast for you.
John Shull 31:01
That just shows how quickly, like, you can just be, like, turned on because, I mean, that guy had everything, and yes, he probably was going to get fired anyways, because he's not, he hasn't done a very good job, but he literally threw away like, 20 to $40 million
Nick VinZant 31:17
I'm fascinated by the idea of how you can be the hero one day and a villain the next, even though you for yourself, are exactly the same person like the public perception of him is completely different, but he's still exactly the same person that he was before.
John Shull 31:35
Rumor has it. And I think the Post New York Post posted this Friday, that hours after he got out of jail, he was DMing, and only fans model like, he's,
Nick VinZant 31:47
he's, he's caught up like, man. I mean, some people can't they,
John Shull 31:53
and it's, and it's sad, right? You feel for his family, but at the same point, it's like, man, just be a decent human. I don't understand. It's like that saying never meet your heroes or whatever, like, that's absolutely true. Oh, it's absolutely 100%
Nick VinZant 32:08
that's why I'm fascinated by how somebody could be, like I said, a hero one day and a villain the next. And in reality, they're exactly the same person, like he was allegedly not a great person when people considered him to be a hero, and then you just get exposed, but you're the same person, either way. Anyway, I hold the audience
John Shull 32:28
couple, because couple actually mean couple.
Nick VinZant 32:32
I don't feel like when somebody says a couple, I don't think of two. I don't take it in the literal sense, even though it has a literal meaning?
John Shull 32:41
Yeah, I don't either.
Nick VinZant 32:43
Apparently, I polled the audience about this, though it's split 5050, 50% of people think it means exactly two. 50% of people means it just means a small number of things, but not necessarily exactly two. Yeah.
John Shull 32:58
I mean, I mean, I would think it's probably pretty dumb. I also think some people are just like, I don't listen to people when they talk anyway, so I don't really give a shit. I feel like that's that's like the unless it's on social media now, or like a tagline, no one cares what anyone's saying. Do you feel that? Or is it just me?
Nick VinZant 33:16
Oh, I don't think people are generally really listening to other people. I Okay. What percentage would you say you are listening to another person when they are talking
John Shull 33:29
professional, professionally or personally?
Nick VinZant 33:34
Give me professionally first and then personally?
John Shull 33:37
Well, professionally, I that's a lot of my job, and I'm not I'm not shitting on it, but I spent a lot of my day listening to my employees or my co workers. So I'll say 80 to 80 to 100% there that I listen now, personally, no, it's like probably 20% at best.
Nick VinZant 33:58
Oh, I would say I'm probably right at around 50% both personally and professionally, professionally, I'm listening when I know it directly has to deal with me. But if it doesn't, if it's kind of like in my area, but I don't really know about it, I'm pretty much 100% tuned out. I would say it's around I would say 50% No, probably 60 to 70% professionally, 60 to 80% personally.
John Shull 34:31
Just make sure you're listening to your wife. That's all you gotta do. Exactly, I Wait. Am I your wife? I could I'll be your wife. I think we've, we've talked about this conversation, had this conversation
Nick VinZant 34:40
before. You want to be my wife.
John Shull 34:42
That's just, I mean, I don't want to talk about, I'd be your roommate, sure.
Nick VinZant 34:46
I mean, roommates a little bit different than wife, yeah, I wouldn't
John Shull 34:49
actually marry you.
Nick VinZant 34:52
Oh, you wouldn't put a ring on it. You just, usually, you just use me.
John Shull 34:58
You only can move back to dirt. Be Kansas. And you know, Sharon Moore is going to be there soon. Where else does he have left to go?
Nick VinZant 35:04
Where do you go back? Man, that's, that's a bad day.
John Shull 35:10
So, yeah, it's a terrible day. All right. You ready for some shout outs?
Nick VinZant 35:17
You we can do shout outs, or otherwise, I had, I have a new game that I was going to play celebrity acquaintances.
John Shull 35:29
Okay, all right, I'm listening.
Nick VinZant 35:31
Okay, so I'll say a celebrity's name, and then you say the name of the very next celebrity you associate them with. You ready, sure. Keanu, Reeves,
John Shull 35:46
Lawrence Fishburne,
Nick VinZant 35:49
oh, from the matrix, okay, yeah, I think immediately of the lady from the matrix, whose name I don't
John Shull 35:55
know, Carrie and moss, I think carry on moss I
Nick VinZant 35:59
also would have accepted for him, Patrick Swayze and the guy from Bill and Ted,
John Shull 36:05
I quickly went matrix and Bill and Ted. For some reason, the only Bill and Ted character I could think of was George Carlin so
Nick VinZant 36:13
Scarlett Johansson,
Unknown Speaker 36:16
Colin Jost, it's pretty easy.
Nick VinZant 36:19
Oh, you went relationship, right? She's with the guy with, yeah.
John Shull 36:23
I mean, yeah, that's and I've always wondered, like, he just seems like a goofy guy. And listen, that's fine. I'm not saying goofy guys can't get some of the most gorgeous women on earth, but I just wonder, how did that happen?
Nick VinZant 36:36
The first person I think of is the guy from Stranger Things. I think of David harbor for some reason, because they were both in like a Guardians movie. Okay, that's the person I think of.
John Shull 36:50
That's a deep cut, but okay, the rock, oh, I mean the first, the first person that popped up was stone cold. Steve Austin,
Nick VinZant 36:59
oh, I think of Kevin Hart.
John Shull 37:03
I don't think of the rock as an actor, per se still. I mean, he will always, forever be the WWE icon to me before acting, that's, that's the only ones I had do this. I mean, that was, that was fun, quick, fast. Good football is that, is that a Huskies
Nick VinZant 37:27
sweatshirt to your it is a husky sweatshirt, right? You're such a fair weather fan, unlike you, I live in an area that actually has some sort of positivity associated with their sports teams.
John Shull 37:41
So does Detroit the Red Wings are good? Oh, you don't even, don't even shit on hockey.
Nick VinZant 37:49
What a hockey What do you? How do you play that I'm not familiar with that. That's not a sport that you see talked about in the national blank lexicon. Is it on TV? Has it ever been on TV?
John Shull 38:02
Yeah, yeah, it has. It's fine.
Nick VinZant 38:05
Spell it. Addy, spell it.
John Shull 38:06
Let's not get into this. H I don't want to get into having to prove why Detroit is a sports town to you.
Nick VinZant 38:13
Oh, I'm sure it's a sports town. It's just not a one that wins. All the cities
John Shull 38:17
you've ever lived in that I'm that I'm aware of are not sports cities.
Nick VinZant 38:22
Derby Kansas, my hometown, state champs like 50,000 times. I come from a Sports City. It's winning Sports City. I know that you don't understand what that's like to be from a place where winners live, but so that's
John Shull 38:33
okay on the derby high school hall of fame, is it you? And then Sharon Moore, oh, I
Nick VinZant 38:40
think I'm probably above him now. Think His name has been taken off the list.
John Shull 38:46
All right, so am I still doing shout outs, or do we both get replaced waiting for you? You're just waiting for me to shout it out loud. Kiss. Reference, what a great band Kiss was over. All right, I'm not a fan. Let's see Rodney Hawaiian, Yvonne fuller burl Martinez, Johnny Walsh, Mark Luna Isaac, Barnett, Sadie Mays caramel, Holt, Courtney, Owen and Toby Clements.
Nick VinZant 39:16
You think somebody is really named caramel? It
John Shull 39:20
might have actually been so is it, is it caramel
Nick VinZant 39:23
or caramel? I say caramel,
John Shull 39:27
I guess I do too. Is it spelled caramel? Like, what's your next caramel? Spelled caramel?
Nick VinZant 39:34
Yeah, okay, cool.
John Shull 39:38
All right, let's see. So just just a few quick stories from the past week of my life. Oh, okay, okay. I was scrolling social media late last week. You know, you know Facebook? Well, they all do this, but Facebook will bring up, like, there will be just random videos, like shorts, and there are a lot of times women, and they're like, you know, my first date was this, and that blah, blah, blah was terrible, and that's why I'm with this person. And Nick I'm not kidding you. There was a woman on there who said that she lived in Orlando about 10 years ago, went on a first date with a guy who took her to a steak house in downtown Orlando. Okay? Like it, like it was the whole story. I've said on here a few times. They sat down, she tells the guy that you know he's and this is where it's not me, but she tells the guy that you know she doesn't think he's very good looking. And she gets up and leaves, and then he continues to cry and chase her out of the restaurant. But I'm telling you, she looks exactly like the person that I that I went on, that I remember going on a first date with, except her name isn't the same name, but all the details were the same. Oh, man. So I'm half tempted. I mean, I'm sure I can't find it now, but in the moment, I was half tempted to, like, try to, like, send her page, like, a direct message, and be like, hey, like, but how would I do that? I would come across as a creep, right? And, like, my wife probably wouldn't appreciate that. It's just It was wild, like I learned similar I stayed up the entire night, like I was just baffled. I was like, Is this an Al is this an AI joke? Is it like an algorithm? Like it was it was insane. It was nuts.
Nick VinZant 41:21
I would think that, given your dating history, the previous relationship that talks about you the most is probably the person who wondered what you got ran over by sheep. I would think that that is the family that probably talks about you as an ex boyfriend, the most like you probably get brought up a lot about as the ex boyfriend who got ran over by a sheep.
John Shull 41:48
That was definitely the relationship that if that relationship had never happened, I never would have met you. So you can thank her and her family for me leaving Michigan and going to Florida. Man, Okay, anyways, so that's the second thing. Third thing is, I am officially a recognized professional wrestling champion.
Nick VinZant 42:13
Okay, go on, go on.
John Shull 42:15
So I want to tell one story, and I'll make it as quick as possible, because no one probably cares listening to this. So I'm part of a group. We've been building up a match, and this past weekend was this superior championship wrestling's biggest event of the year. Standing room only. There was probably between 205 100 people packed into this little skate park, right? It's a good amount of people. Anyways, the big spot was, it was a triple threat. The big spot was one of the guys, one of the competitors, was going to jump off like this, 20 foot, like scaffolding, right? Yeah. And there's going to be eight, eight of us to catch him, because if we don't catch him, he hits concrete and he's dead. I mean, it's that crazy. So we get over to where the spot is going to happen. Some things are supposed to happen. And I look up and he's like, ready to jump. And I look up and I'm like, oh shit, I need to get over there, because there's literally nobody that's supposed to catch him there. So I grab a couple of guys, and he's false as we're running into
Nick VinZant 43:17
position. Oh, maybe he should have looked
John Shull 43:19
and like, I take the brunt of it and like, he falls on top of me. I fall into a family. Like, it worked, but like, That was scary as hell. Like, and I know, I know you make fun of professional wrestling. Maybe everyone else does. Like, yes, some of it's scripted, but like, You got to be an athlete. Like, I don't know for he did a front flip. I don't know how I caught him. Like, I got this giant bruise across my right tit going down my stomach because, like, he kicked the shit out of me, coming down. Like, but anyways, we get back up, we finished the match, and I'm part of, I'm part of the of a championship now.
Nick VinZant 44:01
So you are on the championship team. How do you feel about this? Like, do you feel like? Do you feel like a better man today than you were the start of this weekend?
John Shull 44:10
You know? I so this is indie wrestling. I don't want anyone to think that this is like the big time, but it is followed. And I will tell you I now understand why people like Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, why they did it until they were dead? Well, flair is not dead, but like they would, they'll continue to do it until they're dead. Like even in front of 50 people like you get a high and I can't explain it.
Nick VinZant 44:38
Oh, I always wondered how those like athletes must have a really hard time after they leave the spotlight, because you could never, you could never replace that all of those people who are essentially there just watching you and cheering you on,
John Shull 44:53
like that happened, you know that spot, which was towards the end of the match, and I kind of blacked out, because apparently the crowd started like. This is awesome chant, and they went crazy. I don't remember any of that like so I couldn't even imagine walking into a stadium like John Cena in front of 65,000 people all like that would be incredible. Anyways, I won't go on, but yes, I am a professional wrestling champion. My fear of my tribal leader. Brandon Hudson is the talent, and I'm just tagging along. I was
Nick VinZant 45:28
wondering why you sent me a picture of a hat that looked like you'd ripped off part of the label. I was like, What is this?
John Shull 45:34
There was a wrestling after party and like, groupies came out. That was my first time ever, right?
Nick VinZant 45:39
Ooh. Like, was Mrs. Sure there? Did you think about crossing the line?
John Shull 45:46
No, no, I, I, once again, it's pathetic to say this out loud, but like, so I volunteered, right? We don't get paid for this, yeah, but like, you get there at four o'clock, we didn't go on till 830 like, you're just, you're just building up to this moment. Like, I was exhausted by the end of the night, like, so I had a couple of bourbons and got out of there.
Nick VinZant 46:10
So then, when's the next big date? When are you gonna defend your title?
John Shull 46:14
So February, we're doing a in ring ceremony, I'm told, where we're gonna have a celebration, and then we're gonna, we're gonna fight. I don't even know who it is. Well, I do know who it is, but I'm not gonna say it out loud yet.
Nick VinZant 46:27
Oh, okay, keep the mystery anyway. Good.
John Shull 46:29
So, yeah, so, so it's, yeah. All I will say is, I've had a lot of in this sounds so dumb, but I've had a lot of people in my life be like, Man, that's awesome, John. Like, you know you went, you're doing it, blah, blah, blah, like you're living a dream. That's all I'll say is, go live your dreams. Life's too short. It's indie wrestling. It's not WWE. I'm never gonna sniff that. But like, it's just fun. Like, just go if you want to do something, go do it. I don't know what else.
Nick VinZant 46:56
I'm a firm believer that you don't have to be good at something to enjoy doing it. Yeah.
John Shull 47:01
Like, I'm a bodyguard. Like, I'm his bodyguard, and I have built a character to where people think I'm a tough guy. Like, it's amazing. Like, in my the main guy of the group is an anchor at the at the TV station I work at, the nicest guy ever. And he's, like, he he comes off in character as, like, the most vile, evil person. Like, it's fun to play characters like that, like it's just, yeah, it's just different.
Nick VinZant 47:25
So do you have anything else? Are you ready to go on here?
John Shull 47:29
No, I mean, I'm ready to go on. I'm just happy to be here in one piece.
Nick VinZant 47:33
So our top five is top five cookies. What's your number five?
John Shull 47:39
So first off, I have to ask you how like did you go generic? Or did you go, like, holiday cookie specific only? Or did you go generic?
Nick VinZant 47:48
I went like generic cookie, the type of cookie generally. I didn't go like, Oreo double stuff or something like that.
John Shull 47:57
All right, perfect. Then, then we should be able to get on with this top five. So my number five are peanut butter cookies. Okay, okay, okay, pretty boring, but, like, they're delicious.
Nick VinZant 48:10
So I'm gonna have a really hard time with any cookie that's not chocolate. Like, if to me, if it's not chocolate, why would I bother with it?
John Shull 48:22
I actually, I'm I have, I think only have one chocolate cookie on my list.
Nick VinZant 48:27
Oh, well, that's not very good list. Then I guess my number five is a fortune cookie. Fortune Cookie is the funnest cookie. Okay, it's the funnest cookie. It's the most exciting cookie. It's really, it's like a two for one. You get to eat something, get a little surprise, although they used to give you, like, real fortune, and now they're more just like, be a nice person today.
John Shull 48:53
It's fine, like, the cookies suck, like you're only doing it to eat the wrapper, or eat the wrapper. See the fortune, but like, do you eat the cookie before you look at the Fortune?
Nick VinZant 49:07
Yeah, I think so. I don't remember, like, what you're supposed to do if you're supposed to eat the cookie and then look at the Fortune, or look at the fortune and then eat the cookie. But I don't buy into that kind of stuff. I'm not really a superstitious person.
John Shull 49:19
I know my number four are gingerbread cookies.
Nick VinZant 49:24
Oh, okay,
John Shull 49:26
that actually, they might actually be my favorite cookie, but I couldn't put them in the top three because, you know, you just can't. But I love gingerbread cookies. They are, man, you get that mix of cinnamon, maybe, maybe some nuts in there too.
Nick VinZant 49:42
Oh, oh, boy. My number four is macadamia nut.
John Shull 49:47
Okay, I do lick me some good nuts and some cookies.
Nick VinZant 49:50
I know you do more nuts you can get in your mouth, the better. It's what you've been saying for years.
John Shull 49:57
Have I been saying that for years? Long?
Nick VinZant 50:00
Long time. You did ask about marrying me earlier.
John Shull 50:05
I did, you know what? Listen, if we were both going that way, I would sure. I don't care whatever.
Nick VinZant 50:12
I don't know you're more of a I might date you. I don't know if I'm gonna marry you.
John Shull 50:16
Yeah, that's fine. So my number three is going to be controversial, okay, but it is a cookie and it is a biscotti.
Nick VinZant 50:26
Oh, those I'm not concerned with. Like, whether or not it's actually a cookie, to me, that's just a waste. Oh, no. Like, this is not a good cookie. Like, why? Why waste things? You got peanut butter? Like that, to me is, like, what do you want? Do you want steak? You want hot dogs, you want cheeseburgers. You want pizza. You want nachos. Would you like this nice salad?
John Shull 50:49
Don't, don't rule out a biscotti like it is. It is the most dunkable kind of cookie there is on the face of the earth, right?
Nick VinZant 50:59
But then imagine if you got a good cookie and dunked it.
John Shull 51:04
I mean, I understand what you're saying, but biscotti with the you know what? The usually the dark chocolate on the bottom with the walnut. Still, I want to go get some right now, stick it. I want to dip it in something right now and eat it.
Nick VinZant 51:20
My number three is a kiss cookie, one of those cookies that you put, like Hershey's chocolate kisses in. They got like a candy in the middle. That's a good cookie.
John Shull 51:32
Yeah, those are, those are just okay to me, just meh. I like them, but I like them, but they're just, they're just Okay,
Nick VinZant 51:40
okay, okay. I mean, I could have some more respect for your list if you didn't have biscotti on there, but
John Shull 51:47
Scotties are delicious, and I think you need to give it a give it a try. Get a some biscotti. You know what I do? Actually, one of my terrible things is, if I have a yogurt in the house, I'll use the biscotti as a spoon, and I'll eat the
Nick VinZant 52:03
that's disgusting to me. Yogurt is one of those foods that like, I like it, but I don't really enjoy eating it. Like, oh, I don't really want to eat this.
John Shull 52:13
I mean, what's not to like about yogurt? Everybody likes yogurt. Everybody likes,
Nick VinZant 52:22
Oh, I like it, but I just don't like the consistency of it,
John Shull 52:27
all right. So my number two is a, once again, I think it's going to be maybe controversial, because I feel like a lot of people don't like these, but I love them. And it is an oatmeal raisin cookie
Nick VinZant 52:37
that, to me would be like, No, I love that. To me is a cookie like that is, to me, is the most overrated cookie you can think of. Like oatmeal. Raisin is not menu.
John Shull 52:50
If you make it just right, once again, the spices are key. And if you get, like, just the if it's warm with the spices and raisin, it's like a nice candle. Just goes down easy. Just flows well
Nick VinZant 53:03
again, though, like it that, to me, is just the kind of thing. It's like, oh, wow, that's really good. Imagine if I put this level of preparation and detail into some a cookie that was actually better. Like, imagine if you cooked a if you make a really good oatmeal raisin cookie, imagine how much better your other cookies. My number two is a sandwich cookie, also known as a whoopie pie.
John Shull 53:29
Oh, okay, okay. Like, are those the ones you buy, right? Like, with the cream in the
Nick VinZant 53:34
middle? Yeah, you can make them too. I think,
John Shull 53:37
okay, yeah, just, I mean, that's peculiar, but I can't say anything because I have oatmeal raisin and biscotti on my list.
Nick VinZant 53:43
Yeah, your list is really snobby. It's really snobby. It's not it's a snobby list. It's just not like it's not a list of the people. Mine is a list of the people. Yours is a list of like the bourgeoisie. Yours is a list of the fancy people. I'm in the cheap seats and you're down there box level.
John Shull 54:05
I'm guessing that our number one is probably the same chocolate chip. Yeah, it can, I mean, it can only be chocolate chip.
Nick VinZant 54:14
It can only be chocolate chip. Number one has to be chocolate chip.
John Shull 54:18
Now, with what you just said, you are correct. Like, I'm not gonna go for like, just a regular chocolate chip cookie. Like, I need to have, like, huge chunks of chocolate, or, you know, something like, it needs to be altered a little bit, but still be a chocolate chip cookie. If that makes any sense.
Nick VinZant 54:36
Can it be regular chocolate? Does it? Can it be like, Hershey's chocolate, or does it have to be something imported from the mountains of Brazil to satisfy your fancy tastes. There Fancy Pants
John Shull 54:45
needs to be 98% cacao. I was when I
Nick VinZant 54:49
was running. It's like, is he gonna say Coco or cacao? Do you have anything in your honorable mention? Because I'm getting really hungry.
John Shull 54:57
No, I I was gonna put like. An ice cream sandwich cookie. But, you know, like a Klondike bar type of thing.
Nick VinZant 55:05
But, oh, I thought you were talking about some kind of golf club,
John Shull 55:10
a sandwich, yeah? Oh, I see what you're saying. I hate you, yeah. There we go.
Nick VinZant 55:19
Got him the only other ones I could put on the honorable mention I could do snicker snickerdoodle.
John Shull 55:24
Not ever had a snickerdoodle before.
Nick VinZant 55:27
Well, then you're not, you're not a man in the people. You're not a man in the people. How are you gonna go and take off in your wrestling career when you're not a man in the people? What are they gonna find? What are the fans gonna find out when you're this hoity, toity. What if? What if? Trust upper class, upper class guy, right? What kind of man of the people you shouldn't be wrestling. You should be out there playing Polo.
John Shull 55:52
Dude, I can't have you ever, have you ever played water polo? No, yeah, no, I don't want to. That looks extremely difficult.
Nick VinZant 55:59
That looks really hard. I don't want to do anything that is that difficult. I don't really difficult. I don't really don't want to be in water. I'm good. I don't want to play any games in water unless it's Marco Polo. That's it.
Unknown Speaker 56:11
Marco Polo.
Nick VinZant 56:14
Maybe fish out of water. No, well, fish out of water is part of Marco Polo. I could do Sharks and Minnows. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best types of cookies. Chocolate Chip is the only acceptable answer for number one. It's the only one. Even if you cannot have chocolate or chips or cookies, chocolate chips still should be acknowledged as number one. It's that dominant.