It’s not illegal but counting cards in Las Vegas can be a dangerous business. Professional Card Counter WitChozy has been banned from dozens of casinos. We talk the secret to counting cards, why casinos hate card counters like him and parking lot encounters. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Best Birthday years.
WitChozy: 01:16
Pointless: 35:52
Top 5: 48:07
Interview with Professional Card Counter WitChozy
Nick VinZant 0:12
Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode card counting, and the best birthdays,
WitChozy 0:20
the players edge eventually goes up more and more and more and more. And so you bet bigger when they're when you have a higher advantage.
Nick VinZant 0:29
So how do the casinos feel about this? Oh, they hate it. They hate it.
WitChozy 0:34
They loathe it. I mean, it's such a small gesture, it just shows like, every everything they're trying to do, they're just trying to shark you. I
Nick VinZant 0:42
want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to this show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he does something that while it isn't illegal, it is something that casinos absolutely don't want you doing. This is professional card counter with Josie. So when we talk about card counting, what what is that
WitChozy 1:19
card counting specifically in blackjack is a it's a mathematical strategy that uses card removal to determine the consistency of the remaining deck in order to make more profitable decisions. So for instance, there are some cards in blackjack that are more beneficial to the Eevee, or expected value of the player than the house. So those cards tend to be cards like 23456 I'm sorry, did I say those cards were more beneficial to the house or the player?
Nick VinZant 1:55
Think you said the house? The first ones? Yes, yes, that's correct.
WitChozy 1:59
I thought I misspoke. But then there are more cards that are beneficial to the player. Those are 10, Jack, Queen, King, Ace, even nine. So the most common form of card counting you use the people will use the high low count, which is basically taking the deuce 3456, right, five, five different cards, the 10, the jack, the queen, the King, the ACE, and you keep what's called a running count of how many more douces through six compared to 10s through aces are remaining in the deck. So as more and more of those Deuce through six are discarded. The players edge eventually goes up more and more and more and more. And so you bet bigger when they're when you have a higher advantage and you make money.
Nick VinZant 2:47
Okay to me like alright, man, you might as well be just been speaking, clang on or some kind of other language, right? Is it hard to do though? Like, is it really that hard is like one of those things like once you've kind of like, alright, this isn't that hard?
WitChozy 3:02
No, it's not. Because all you're doing in order to keep track. All you're doing I don't know how much you've heard about card counting, but your people say plus one plus two minus one. Have you heard all that sort of jargon or kind
Nick VinZant 3:14
of Yeah, like I've seen a movie about it. Right? And
WitChozy 3:17
21? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you basically assign values to the 23456 as plus one, you assign it a plus one value, there are different counting systems, but we're just going to stick to the main one. So every time a deuce 3456 comes into play, you just add one, right? And then seven, eight, and nine tend to be more neutral cards. So you just ignore them. And then every time a 10, Jack, Queen, King, Ace is discarded, you subtract one. So all you're actually doing is adding and subtracting one and betting bigger when the plus number is higher. So not really very difficult at all to execute if you can add and subtract by one.
Nick VinZant 4:01
So if we're talking about like betting bigger in the sense, like alright, so you want it to be plus one or you're waiting for be like plus 10 or plus five, like when are you like alright, now go.
WitChozy 4:13
On average, you're going to have a zero count everything trends towards zero. So as the count approaches like a true plus five, you'll see about a two to two and a half percent advantage for the player. And so you'll determine how much bigger you want to bet at each count, according to how much money you have to lose or invest. So for instance, would you want to bet your entire net worth on two and a half percent advantage play? Probably not right. So there are some more complexities in developing like a betting strategy that's, that's formulated to to how much money you have and how much you can lose how much you're willing to lose for that matter. So a really easy rule of thumb is that the house starts With about an edge of minus, or plus 0.5%, so the player has a minus half a percent edge. And as the count goes up by each one single digit right, it tends to be a 0.5. Advantage back to the to the player. Does that make sense? So so let's say the house edge is 0.5. At zero, then it's going to be roughly neutral at one, it's going to be roughly 0.5, at two, and so on, and so forth. So if the counter is plus 10, you can approximate that you'll have a you know, based on this, it would be like a four and a half percent edge. But as you get higher the edge actually is like exponential, which is nice. So so the higher counts are even more valuable, like a plus 10 is going to be more than double as valuable as a plus five. Yeah, a
Nick VinZant 5:56
little a slightly higher number is actually a much higher number. It just doesn't sound like that. So, but even when you're doing this, right, like, even when you have that advantage, it doesn't seem like it's that much of an advantage. So how does this work out where people can make some money doing it? Is it just by like, no, you've got to hit it really hard when you get it, or you just play long enough, that eventually having that advantage works out for you.
WitChozy 6:25
Right? So it comes down to both of them. When you are betting when you are wagering more and more money, when you have the advantage. Over time, you're going to have bigger wins and smaller losses than if you were to vary your wager sort of arbitrarily, you know, not according to any account or anything superstitions, you know, I lost three in a row, I can't lose the fourth, a lot of gambling fallacies. So think of it this way, at a plus three, you have, you know, a little bit over a percent 1% edge. And if you could average on all of your wagers, one to one 1%. Let's say 1%? Well, you can go through 100 Hands in an hour playing a you know, a face up shoe game. So 100 Hands an hour, which means that 1% average return on your average bet. That means you're making your average bet per hour, yes, you will have to weather some variance, you know, like some wins and losses. But imagine your average bet is even $100. That's $100 per hour. That's that's a respectable income.
Nick VinZant 7:39
That makes real, okay. Like they're, I really understand it like, all right, that there you can make some money. And over the course of like, if you're gambling for five hours, it's 500 bucks or $5,000, or whatever, you're now I see the appeal of it. Yeah.
WitChozy 7:55
And then the thing that's pretty amazing about it, is that let's say you want to gamble for fun, but with an advantage. If your average bet is 1520 $25. I mean, people like to gamble recreationally as it is, imagine if you could just make 20 bucks an hour. I mean, a lot of people are interested in that.
Nick VinZant 8:19
So why isn't everybody doing this, though? Why isn't everybody who's got a decent head for gambling a numbers like why isn't everybody doing this?
WitChozy 8:29
I have two guesses. I'm not exactly sure why I think one reason is that people aren't familiar with the math behind card counting. And in my opinion, it becomes easier to rely on the fact that you're doing things properly, you know, what you can expect to win or lose in a given hand, a sample hand sample, meaning if you play, you know, five to 10 hours and lose X amount, you know, a lot of people who want to play recreationally, but they want to pick this up. If they go on a bad luck streak. They say Screw this, I don't even know if this works, you know, they just freak out. And they don't want to do it anymore. But if you have the understanding of like the underlying math, it's easier to be like, well, that will happen, you know, 10% of the time, I'm going to face a downswing like that, and this is all accounted for. And I'm pretty, like meticulous about how I set up how much I bet you know how much I'm willing to risk win or lose things like that. So I think that's one reason and then I think the other reason is that most gamblers are in most recreational gamblers are really unfamiliar with gambling theory, I'll call it Yeah,
Nick VinZant 9:49
for lack of a better word or whatever. It's really like whatever. Yeah, yeah,
WitChozy 9:53
exactly how the, I guess gambling theory and I think the House is employees that to a massive degree, they do the same thing that I do really.
Nick VinZant 10:04
So how many cards? Are you counting? Like? How many things would you have? Do you have to keep track of it's your, your average blackjack game,
WitChozy 10:13
just to count cards, you would need to keep track of that running count that I told you about the the two through six, as opposed to the 10 through ace adding and subtracting one. And then you would want to keep an eye on how many decks are left to be dealt. So if you're playing a six deck shoe, the shoe is like the container that holds the cards. And the size of the shoe can vary like between one one decks usually isn't a shoe game, but one deck to eight decks is usually the maximum. And when you're keeping that running count, we call it the tally of plus one minus one, blah, blah, blah, in order to find what's called the true count, you're going to want to keep that number and divide it by the number of decks remaining in that shoe. So for six decks, we took 223456. So they're in one deck, there are 523456, there's 25, cards, times six is 150. So you have 150 of two through six 150 of 10 through ace. And so removing one Deuce and a six deck shoe changes the ratio of 149 to 150. It doesn't do much. Right? Do you understand what?
Unknown Speaker 11:35
Yeah, yeah.
WitChozy 11:38
With six decks, you're going to take that tally number and divide it by the number of decks remaining. So if it's the first hand in the shoe, and you have plus three, then the true counts around plus 0.5. And the true count is what tells you what your actual advantages over the house. Okay,
Nick VinZant 11:55
how long did it take for you to be like, Alright, now I can do this. Well,
WitChozy 12:01
when I learned to count, I was actually working in a casino. I had a lot of big experience with cards, handling cards, the hands what you should do with the hands, you know, I had a lot of what's the word I'm looking for exposure to blackjack already as it were, because I was dealing the game. I would say it took me probably like a month of dedicating a lot of time to making sure everything was perfect, zero mistakes. And since then, my my game has obviously progressed a lot since then there are other things that you can add to make your game more and more profitable as time goes on. But in order just to learn to go out and play a profitable blackjack game, I would say it took me like a month of of practice.
Nick VinZant 12:47
Would you say is that fast? Slow normal?
WitChozy 12:50
I would say that was that would be average.
Nick VinZant 12:53
Now how did you get into it? How did you decide this? Like, Alright, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do this.
WitChozy 12:57
Well, I always liked like math and logic and philosophy, like, either just thought all that stuff was kind of cool. And I kind of accidentally found it through that. Because while I was working in the casino, I was taking a probability theory course. And the basically, I just realized that all the stuff that I had seen in movies, and whatever that there were, there was like, really legitimate background behind it. And that made me so curious. And so I dove deep into like, how this works and found, you know, forums online or whatever it may be. And I just kind of like went ham on it for probably a month. I mean, I'm estimating. And then I was like, Man, I'd like to do this. And then I ran, I was in college, so I didn't have the bankroll or ability to like risk money to go out and play blackjack, I was never going to do that. And there was a customer that I was pretty close with. And he always saw me like as, to be honest, smarter than I am. Like, he thinks that I'm so smart. But um, I'm not that smart. But he he just wanted to and he's a gambler, so he just wanted to go ham on it. He's like, Let's go we're gonna go take these guys for everything. And then we just went on like a little card counting run and everything, you know went very well we made money and that kind of started my bankroll to start my own personal endeavors.
Nick VinZant 14:25
Is it one of those things that you kind of gotta you gotta have money to make money like do you need to have a pretty good bankroll to get into it? Or like I got $10 Let's go for it. $10
WitChozy 14:34
There is no chance there is no chance you make it and by no chance I mean like 0.0001 I mean it's it's there's there's like no chance but it kind of depends how much risk you want to put into it. There's something we have a calculation called Risk Of Ruin, you know, risk of going bust and you can use software and things like that to like calculate, what is your risk of Ruin playing this strategy and you just plug it in, and the computer will simulate billions of hands and or hundreds of millions. And you can just decide, you know, if you want to take on that much risk or not.
Nick VinZant 15:17
So how do the casinos feel about this? Oh, they hate it. They hate it. They loathe it. They know it works, or why do you think that they hate it so much?
WitChozy 15:27
In general card counters are the reason there's so much scrutiny in Casino Blackjack, because the house is trying to protect their games from being taken advantage of, and the blackjack card counters are in there trying to take as big of a cut as they can from those casinos for as long as they can. And so yeah, they definitely don't like it. So
Nick VinZant 15:49
what will they do? Like, will they come? Will they cut you off? Or how does this kind of work,
WitChozy 15:53
a lot of people are still not aware that the casinos, they'll go in and they'll lose, you know, their their retirements, they'll go in, they'll lose their net worth and the casinos will, you know, happy to take be happy to take it. But if someone goes in there and tries to get a you know, 1% advantage over the house over time, then they're just going to straight up tell you you can't play there, they're going to kick you out. Eventually, if you keep coming back, they're going to trespass you, they're going to try to harass you. And I wanted to get undercover footage of all of those types of encounters. And so that's kind of what started my content is I wanted to show people this is what happens if, if you make profitable bets against the house at all. They just abandon it kick you out.
Nick VinZant 16:40
Like how do they figure out that you're doing this?
WitChozy 16:43
So step one is they will monitor the betting patterns of the players and surveillance because like I told you, Blackjack has a lot of scrutiny on the game, because they know that blackjack is susceptible to being exploited by card counters. So they'll have people in surveillance, monitoring the betting habits, patterns of the customers. And, you know, they might have software, they might have individuals who can keep the count. Plus, they have you know, they can go back through footage and review footage and they have a couple, you know, benefits that you don't have while you're counting live. And once they identify that wow, every time the count is at a certain point this person is betting on average, you know, five times larger than their average wager. Yeah, he's gonna make profit off us over time ban them and they don't care if you lose or win. That's the you know, misconception about card counting. I had gone into Red Rock and lost $10,000. And when I went to pull pull more out in their high limit room, they banned me when I went down to my last as I was down to my last chip look reaching for more cash, they said sorry, you're too good for us. I just lost $10,000 They said I was too good for them.
Nick VinZant 18:03
They so they just they're not even gonna take the risk now. Do you kind of get is this a process that you go through? Like every time you come into a casino like they got to figure it out? They got to do that stuff? Or do they kind of know you coming in sometimes.
WitChozy 18:16
Now they know me coming in it's it's it got to the point where I would walk into onto a property and they would have surveillance, some of the higher end places and regions, they would have surveillance or security like on their headphone, I would see him Look at me. And then they would look down and then they would kind of like tell me from a distance and then talk to someone else. And they'd walk away and all of a sudden I have someone else trailing me. And then they just immediately they're just keeping an eye on where I go and what I do. And it's just not really comfortable. It's not fun. It might sound like exciting, but at some point, it feels like it's really frustrating. Pretty much every place. I go in, I sit down and I can't get much time mostly only the smaller places I can maybe get an hour and then they'll ban me.
Nick VinZant 19:07
Or they usually kind of jerks about it or they just kind of like hey man. It's over. It's
WitChozy 19:12
hit and miss. In my experience, some of the tribal casinos are I don't know I don't know if I would say jerks, but they're they try to intimidate you as much as they can. They're trying they're playing like a psychological warfare type of game against you. And they're trying to like make sure you never come back because you're afraid to come back.
Nick VinZant 19:35
Yeah, it's one of those things that like it's really hard to feel bad for them. In that sense. It's like you were mad at me for taking advantage of the game but you were taking advantage of me. They're
WitChozy 19:46
taking advantage of of everybody else they're taking advantage of a good example is in the same room the casino was offering and comping me drinks I've had several times and I've had several times is where the pits will encourage me to keep taking drinks, keep taking drinks, they will encourage me to bet bigger and bigger while while they think I'm a whale. But then once surveillance catches me because it's not usually the pits that catch you, once surveillance catches me and I get kicked out, it's just funny you see both sides, it's not the same person, right? It's the pit boss that's telling you and encouraging you, the people in the pits are encouraging you to drink, and bet larger and the high limit rooms. But then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, big guys in a suit that represent the bigger interests of the casino are the ones that are going to tell you. Actually, you're not allowed to play here at all. But it's
Nick VinZant 20:38
not technically illegal, right? Like, not
WitChozy 20:40
even remotely, as long as you are not using any sort of device or any sort of external help to make your decisions. All I'm doing is betting when I'm allowed to bet I'm not cheating. I'm not, you know, changing my bet after the result of a hand or doing anything along those lines. So there's nothing illegal at all. There's a bunch of legal precedent that has concluded that nope, counting cards is definitely not cheating.
Nick VinZant 21:10
Is there? Okay, so blackjack seems to be the dominant one. But are there other games where this can be? Like what other games? Can you also use this on?
WitChozy 21:19
This question is the same reason I still want the face blur because I found a very specific wager, and another casino and another game I can I can share the game, it's Baccarat. There's a very there's a specific wager that I found out to be exploitable, like on my own. And I, you know, part of me wanted to share it so much with the Internet. But right now, I would like to just see what I can make and take off them before they figure it out. And I don't really want me blabbing my mouth to be the reason that they maybe take away the wager or they re re evaluate the the wager as it is. And so there's a specific wager in baccarat that I found to be it's actually more profitable than blackjack. How
Nick VinZant 22:14
much like how much have you made doing this? I know you're not going to tell us what the wager is. But can you tell me how much you made doing it? I'm
WitChozy 22:20
actually I'm thinking about if I want to tell you what the wager is? It's a side bet it's a side bet the Baccarat is not like I will tell you the return, I will tell you the return. So blackjack I told you makes on average, you can expect 1% is fairly good is good per hand. So if you're betting 100 bucks, on average, you make 100 bucks every 100 hands. This game, there are some situations where you can have a 100% average return, if people are able to figure out what the wager is based on that I was going to not say what the payout was because that kind of starts to give away with the wager.
Nick VinZant 23:05
Yeah, somebody could backtrack it and figure it out. I know. But if they do, then then good for them. Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. Is this really better than just a good blackjack strategy? Like if you kind of played blackjack perfectly, or as perfectly as you could? without counting cards? Is it better than a good strategy? It's the
WitChozy 23:33
best strategy. So it's, so you're counting the cards and you're using that strategy along with the card counting. So it's kind of like if you memorize that book that exactly what to do in every situation in blackjack, it actually means you're ready to if you if you memorize that perfectly, you're ready to count cards, you're ready to learn to count cards. Because if you don't know that strategy, counting cards doesn't give you anything. It gives you very little, it gives you very little and you'll still be losing you need to be able to know what the strategy first is, in order to learn to count cards, because you're counting the cards. And then you're following that strategy along with it. That's the simple answer. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 24:21
I understand what you mean. Right, like you got to know how to play first. Then once you know how to play, then you can get into this most you have ever won at one time most you've ever lost at one time. So
WitChozy 24:33
most I've ever won at one time would be around 13 14,000. Then there is my biggest losses just shy of 10,000 Actually, it's happened trying to dis I'm trying to decide. Yeah, I think it's only happened once actually that I've lost the 10,000 that I've lost 10k In to a session, I feel like there was one other time. I mean, I kind of become immune to caring too much about the results of a single session or whatever. So it's not like a big achievement if I win or lose a lot. It's just like part of the swings, and you learn to just become like, what's the word I'm looking for just showing memory, you gotta have a short memory. Yeah, you just don't care. You don't care if you win and win or lose in a day after you do it long enough. Because you know, you're just going to lose, you're going to win, you know how much you're going to win on average. And it's just like being a robot.
Nick VinZant 25:37
So then like, Okay, if you took it over like a week period, or a month period, or a year period, whatever, like extended period, you've done this for. So
WitChozy 25:44
after 15k hands with a one percentage, you'd win, you'd win, like 150 times your average bet. So like, if your average bet is 100 to 100 bucks, you make 15 30k pretty easily. And then if you're betting more, you have more money to risk and to wager, you'll make more and so on and so forth. What
Nick VinZant 26:04
kind of gives it away, like what gives it away in the sense like you can spot if you're at the table with somebody else that you can tell that they're doing it, what usually gives it away.
WitChozy 26:14
What usually gives it away is that at the point in the shoe, when you want to start betting really big, you see that they already have a huge bet out there. And then like when that count drops a lot, you see they just dropped their wager down to a very small size. Again, you see that a couple of times, you know that they're at least trying to follow the count the way they that the same way the house catches you. That's how you'll know as a player as well.
Nick VinZant 26:37
So okay, let's say that you're having a normal hand, so to speak, your normal bed is what you see, let's just assume for the sake of kind of just easy numbers, right? Let's just say your normal bet is 100 a hand, when you see the count, really go in your favor, what will you jump that up to with
WitChozy 26:57
my personal bank roll, I would feel like I wouldn't want to go more than 10 to one, which is already an aggressive spread. Because I mean, at three 4% edge, you can lose a lot of if you're doing over 10 to one, let's say 21, you're betting $2,000, you can still lose, you know, six figures over the course of time, betting with that big of a spread. So I would probably do something around 10 to one and feel very happy and safe with it. No bigger than 10 to one. And I would bet. So yeah, I would bet between 100 and 1000. And I would err towards betting 1000 on a true count of about plus five or bigger if I were allowed to do it. So you'll jump
Nick VinZant 27:40
it up pretty significantly, but not super crazy. The
WitChozy 27:44
only reason I won't bet more at $100 Min is just because I'm not rich enough to be able to take you know, several 100k worth of losses on a bad run, it's going to hurt my ability in the future to continue playing and playing profitably. So I'm going to find an amount that I can tolerate the down swings and be able to continue playing in the future. Yeah, it all adds up. In the end. It's just about like the math. It's funny, you're kind of like trusting the math more than the results. So
Nick VinZant 28:14
looking at this, right, like this is telling me about this, like what's happening here.
WitChozy 28:19
So this is a time when I used a another recreational player as as cover, because the person that I was playing with was a regular. Yeah, meaning they they frequented these places and played in such a way that, you know, they were definitely not a card counter. So I made friends with this person. And they allowed me to go in and play with them and kind of they could fluctuate their bets and follow my instructions. And it basically allowed me when when the casino sees me associated with another regular and before they know about me, they're not going to be as skeptical. They're not going to be as skeptical about like what I do. Does that make sense about betting because I'm walking in with another player who you know is going to lose money has lost money over time to them. So eventually, I just got too greedy, too ambitious and spread a little bit too much. And you know, this pit boss got the call and he walked over and he said something like, Have you ever been told you're not allowed to play blackjack somewhere? And, and I was like, No, I was gonna say no, I'm drinking you know, I'm like drinking and just, you know, I'm acting like a fun gambler. And, and then my friend and I had talked about little like pranks or gags to pull on them. He's like, You should do something really childish like, like, tell them they can't play blackjack, like act like a little child. And I just didn't really know what to say it sounds like you can't play blackjack and then he's like, I can't play blackjack because I work here. I was like why work here and I just acting just entertainment just
Nick VinZant 29:56
to kind of get a rise out of I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, so like, how long would that take? Like? How long did it take him to? To figure it out?
WitChozy 30:05
At this location? I think it took maybe no more than two hours, probably between one and two hours at this exact location. Oh, this, this one's fun if you go down this one, okay, my strategy and the high limit games, this is 100. This is actually 100 Min game. My strategy and the high limit games are I bring in a friend who I can trust, like, with my money, because my my intention is to get like kind of, kind of, like drunk and I don't want anyone taking advantage of me or anything like that. And, and the reason I get drunk is because I it buys me a lot of extra time. And the edge that I sacrifice the edge, like the advantage that I sacrifice is only marginal. I don't make basic strategy mistakes. But there are like small accounting mistakes that usually err on like one or two off. So like, I'll think it's plus three, but it's plus five. But in such an instance, like, if, let's say, I think it's plus five, but it's actually plus three. Either way, I will have an advantage. So basically, as I'm playing even though I'm drunk, as I'm playing, I'm keeping in mind that like, there might be like some chance that this count is slightly lower. And so I'm just always trying to like hedge. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I'm just kind of always trying to hedge my count. And then at some points you just get so such a high count that it doesn't even matter if you're off by a couple because out a true 13 or 14, your edges so enormously high, that the drunk image allowing you to play some massive ridiculous bet, like for 1000 or $1,200, like two hands of 600 is worth way more than the fact that it might be a plus 12 instead of a plus 15. And that they're gonna let you play the next like 10 shoes with before they start questioning it. And so I have something on actually on my YouTube where I break down some of the strategies I used. This is a really cool one. So the pit boss tells me to bet big. I asked the pit boss if I should bet big or small when the count is really high. So we have like, I don't remember, I think it was plus eight or plus nine. And I asked the pit boss, should I be big or small, you know, I'm acting like a gambler. She goes, she goes big bet big. But I know she's going to tell me to bet big and at this point in the session, I already know that they're really like, they're watching my bets a lot. Cuz they made a call they had made a call and like the prior shoe about that I had like upped my bet on like a big count. So now at this point, like kind of the heat's on, but I just want to like squeeze as much value as I can. So I asked the pit boss bigger small she tells me big I bet massive. I think I one one pushed one. The results don't matter. I got a ton of value off of the bet I won some money on that bet. But what's hilarious is she gets a call from the pit boss and the pit boss tells her he just bet big again the count right when the count went up. And then she goes I heard her wallum BS thing with the dealer. I hear her go. I told him to
Nick VinZant 33:23
Are you are you banned 100% from any places. So
WitChozy 33:27
usually when they ban you, they just tell you you can't play blackjack because they would love for you to go and sit down at roulette or baccarat or something like that. So usually they just banned you from specifically blackjack. Have
Nick VinZant 33:41
you has this happened to you so many times that you don't think about it? Or is it still kind of a nerve wracking anxiety producing experience?
WitChozy 33:50
I think it places where I've already been banned a lot. I still most people who have done it as much and as long as I have, they just do become immune to it. But for me, I don't like the I just don't like the feeling of like them telling me like I don't know. It just feels uncomfortable being unwelcomed you know, and she rescinded it after she got told by surveillance some higher up to like not have any contact with me drop him and I didn't even get the offer that she already gave me I mean it's such a small gesture it just shows like every everything they're trying to do they're just trying to shark you like there they really are. Every time they give you a free this or free that it's all calculated based on how much they think they can get off you. The big lights everything it's meant to entice you it's meant to make you make irresponsible decisions and slowly give them the value. So is
Nick VinZant 34:50
there anything else that you think that we missed or anything else like that?
WitChozy 34:54
They can reach out on any of my social media with Josie the web tcaa Josie why it's the name we chose for it and they can reach out to me on there. But other than that, I mean, I'm going to be streaming some poker on kick. So I'm going to be studying and learning advanced poker strategies basically and playing online and streaming on Kik. Under the same handle with Josie.
Nick VinZant 35:22
I want to thank with Josie so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. If you want to learn more about how card counting is done. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on March 14, at two at 12:30pm. Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you feel like you're a rule follower?
John Shull 36:01
I mean, I'm not in prison, if that's what you're asking, like,
Nick VinZant 36:04
if you're just out in society, are you going to follow the rules?
John Shull 36:08
I am a rule follower. But I think as I get older, I'm giving less care of the smaller things. Like if I'm at a red light to turn left. And there's no traffic coming at all. And there's nobody no pedestrians, why not turn? Why do I have to wait another 45 seconds?
Nick VinZant 36:27
I'm a rule follower, if it's going to affect people around me, but if I don't think that there's any harm in breaking the rules, then I have no problem breaking the rules.
John Shull 36:38
I just sometimes feel like an old crotchety old man. You know, one thing though, that I never will, that I never will do that I want to do constantly is park in the handicapped spaces or places? Oh,
Nick VinZant 36:50
that's one of those like things that I wouldn't even cross at all. I never would be like, I'm just gonna park in the handicapped spot. I wouldn't do that for a second. But then I had relatives that actually needed those spots. So I probably feel a lot differently about it. It's really
John Shull 37:05
traffic rules. I mean, I don't what are the rules are there to break? Really? I mean, the laws of life gravity. I mean, I don't know.
Nick VinZant 37:14
Ah, I mean, like little rules you could talk about, like, I live in Washington, where you're supposed to pay for bags, and I never pay for bags and self checkout. I'm like, Oh, no bags, and I just take him because I live dangerously. Okay, but when when you follow the rules, do you do it? Because you feel like you should? Or because you're afraid of getting caught?
John Shull 37:36
Just because I feel like I should? I would love to know like who like, if you do break laws on a regular basis? What are they? I mean, do you consider not paying your taxes? Breaking the law? Are you smart?
Nick VinZant 37:51
I think you're smart. If you use the system, I think that's smart. But I think just blatantly not doing it. Well, they're gonna find out because the government knows how much you owe. They just want to make sure that you're gonna be honest with them and tell them and then they're gonna tell you how much you don't actually do. That's a huge scam. Anyway, I polled the audience. 63% said that when they follow the rules, they follow the rules, because you think they should only 37% Follow the rules, because they're afraid of getting caught. I do think that society kind of has to follow the rules in order for it to exist. I just think that a lot of rules are made for 10% of the people who are complete idiots and kind of ruin things for everybody else. And that people should then know when to let people break the rules. However,
John Shull 38:35
I do feel that as a society, we need to move forward. I feel like a lot of these rules. Whether you follow them or not, are were made by people in a time in a culture that is not reminiscent of what we face today. Like I just I just randomly looked up crazy laws around the United States. And I'm just going to randomly pick a state. Here's one Georgia, in Georgia, those who engage in llama related activities are responsible for any injuries, they suffer. Like, that makes sense, right? Like, why would it be a thing? One way or the other?
Nick VinZant 39:17
Because somebody probably did something and there was like, well, there's no law against it. Like, well, we didn't really think that people will be doing that with llamas, and I guess now we got to have a law says you can't do that with llamas, or
John Shull 39:29
Idaho. Cannibalism is illegal. Yeah, no shit. It's illegal. Why does it have to be written into the Idaho constitution? Like,
Nick VinZant 39:39
because if it's not, then somebody can get away with it. Right? Like you got to have a law on the books. Cannibalism tend to be frowned on.
John Shull 39:46
Anyways, I'm gonna end this with our two states that we were born and grew up in. We'll start with we'll start with Kansas. Don't shoot rabbits for motorboats. It's a good one.
Nick VinZant 39:59
because that means that somebody did that and something happened. Right? You don't just like hey guys, let's just just as a precaution, we should probably cover this like know somebody specifically did that. Like now we gotta write a law about it. Like
John Shull 40:15
the tagline here is it's illegal to sell liquor by the glass in over 25 counties in Kansas, catch fish with your bare hands. And no, you cannot shoot a rabbit from a motorboat.
Nick VinZant 40:28
Highway hunting, highway hunting is a very people who don't know I don't know if it's called highway hunting. But it was basically like people would hunt by just driving around. As opposed to actually like hunting the way you're supposed to. They would just drive and shoot out their cars happens Kansas.
John Shull 40:45
Well and here's one that makes absolutely no sense from my great state of Michigan. You can't be drunk on a train in Michigan, but you can be drunk in an airplane. And don't worry once you get to Ohio, which borders Michigan to the direct south, most of it, you can absolutely start drinking. I know it's kind of interesting. Let's give some shout outs here. We're gonna start with Nick Bradford. Shout out to all the next in the world. THOMAS LEIGHTON. Anthony rock, Rick Carmen, J. D. Chu JD can go either way on jadis.
Nick VinZant 41:24
There's a few names where I'm okay with having them be initials. Essentially, I can be okay with JD AJ. Obviously, DJ,
Unknown Speaker 41:35
what about BJ
Nick VinZant 41:39
not as a person? I would name my kid that. Alright, so it'd be hard being a guy with a name BJ. Oh, maybe J.
John Shull 41:49
Though there. There have been some successful BJs in the world and the history of of life. BJ surhoff former baseball player never heard him. All right. Well, here we go. Let's see. Famous ol boy.
Nick VinZant 42:06
Miss BJs. You're gonna go down a road on that. Yeah. All right,
John Shull 42:12
back to shout outs. Justin Underwood, Burton Whelan, Luke Kohler, Hank Jackson, the third and JB Austin ball. Appreciate all of you for checking us out. All right. Well, speaking of actors and actresses, we're going to switch up the fun portion of this show. Oh, okay, switching it up just a hot second. By the time this comes out the Academy Awards, which were the highest viewed Academy Awards, if anyone cares, know that in several years. We're on this this past weekend. So I thought it might be a little fun. I had my wife randomly pick out 10 celebrities, their ages, and I either went above and or above or below their actual age. Okay, I got six out of 10. Right. So I want to see how you do and then the winner gets nothing. Cool. All right. Let's see, we're gonna start with Danny Glover. And I'm gonna say 76 Well,
Nick VinZant 43:20
wait a minute, don't you already know the answer? So what's the point of you guessing if you know the answer already
John Shull 43:25
know I'm gonna give you a number and age and then you tell me if you think
Nick VinZant 43:29
Oh, I see. You're giving me a point of reference. Yes.
John Shull 43:33
I'm not giving you the actual number. I'm just giving you like an age of reference. And then you tell me if you think the actual age is above or below that number. And you get it right or wrong. Okay. Above. Correct. He is 77 Okay, okay. All right. I also got that one. Right. So one for one. Very good. Very good. John Cena. 48 he's
Nick VinZant 44:03
40 he's 43
John Shull 44:07
You are correct. It is lower. But he's 46
Nick VinZant 44:11
Oh, he's 46 I thought he was 43 I'm just I'm not playing your game. I'm just gonna guess the age.
John Shull 44:15
I mean, I you want to just guess the age and now
Nick VinZant 44:20
I'll just straight guessed the age. Okay. All right. Can we step it up?
John Shull 44:23
Cardi B 2931.
Nick VinZant 44:30
Oh, that's pretty close. I feel if I get within two years. That's pretty good. Two years a decade.
John Shull 44:38
Okay. Giselle. Buenas Shinn.
Nick VinZant 44:42
4044 43 Oh, okay, because I thought that she was close to Tom Brady. 43 isn't okay. Okay, okay.
John Shull 44:51
Jack Nicholson.
Nick VinZant 44:55
Oh, he's older he might be 7886 Oh my God, he's 86 Well, it hasn't been in movies for a while now you're like, Oh, well, that's probably why. That's old man. That's like getting up there. That's like, congratulations.
John Shull 45:10
I got that one wrong myself. I don't
Nick VinZant 45:13
know if I want to hit the 80s I don't know if I want to do that.
John Shull 45:17
Martin Scorsese. 81 Ding ding ding ding ding ding. Oh, good. That's good guess. Leonardo DiCaprio.
Nick VinZant 45:34
Oh, I bet he's like 49
John Shull 45:37
Ding ding ding ding ding tuner. Oh, is he?
Nick VinZant 45:40
49? Because I thought like, oh, you probably would have heard something if he turned 50 by now. He
John Shull 45:45
is 49 years old.
Nick VinZant 45:49
Who, man? Okay. Okay, man.
John Shull 45:51
Three year. Let's go for a three peat here. Danny. DeVito. Ad. Oof. Brutal. 79 all brutal. Clothes. A couple more here. Jennifer Lopez. Oh, strive. 52. Man, you're one off 53.
Nick VinZant 46:18
And what's weird is I'm a terrible judge of age. I can't look at somebody and tell how old they are. At all. Okay, do you think that people younger than us? Look older for their ages? And we did?
John Shull 46:34
No. I mean, I was gonna say no, but I'm sure I look like a. I mean, I still feel like I look pretty young for my age. I'm gonna say no, I feel like the generation below us looks a lot younger.
Nick VinZant 46:50
Oh, I thought that was gonna be a much louder sneeze than that. I gave you a minute for I think that they look older than we did for our ages. I think 20 year olds now look like they're 30 like stress has gotten to them.
John Shull 47:04
I will say I maybe for men, I feel just because the younger folks, I feel have more beards and facial hair, which I think makes you look a little older. I feel our generation. You know, facial hair was obviously there. But I don't think it is what it is today in terms of so many young people rocking it out.
Nick VinZant 47:21
I was watching the NFL Combine because I just like I actually liked the NFL Combine more than I liked the NFL. I bet no, that doesn't make any sense. But it does. See in some of those people like they look like grown men. Like they look more like men than I do. Even though I'm to almost twice their age. In some cases, well, not twice your age, but at least 10 to 15 years older. Like that's a girl that that guy looks like he's 45
John Shull 47:47
It's not that much harder to look older than you. Oh, yeah, I
Nick VinZant 47:51
guess that's true. Okay. Anyway. All right. Last one
John Shull 47:54
here. Al Pacino.
Nick VinZant 47:59
8183 83, man, I'm ready. Are you ready? Born. So our top five is top five birthdays. What ages are do you think are the best birthdays? to number five?
John Shull 48:16
It's my number five. And I think this is going to be not very popular. But I'm going to say 50 as my number five.
Nick VinZant 48:26
But you haven't turned 50 yet? How do you know it's going to be a good birthday?
John Shull 48:30
Oh, am I supposed to like just do the ones that I've that? I've had like my I
Nick VinZant 48:34
mean, generally like what would you need to have some kind of personal experience with it? I mean, why do you think 50 is going to be a good birthday.
John Shull 48:41
I've been to 50/50 birthday parties.
Nick VinZant 48:43
You just thought this seems awesome to be 50. Because I feel
John Shull 48:47
like 50 Is that age where you're kind of leaving behind the first half of your life. You know, like you, your kids, you know, if you have a traditional life and I know most of us don't. But let's just say we do. Your kids are getting grown. They're probably in college, maybe out of college. You're hitting that almost, you know, 1015 years to go before your butt to hit retirements. Like you probably have a comfy chair that you like, you have a cup of coffee every morning. Like you know, you're not going out drinking till 4am then back up at 8am anymore. You know, just I feel like 50 is a good benchmark of a birthday to try to hit.
Nick VinZant 49:25
I can kind of see that right? You're kind of on the homestretch. you've established yourself. You're a little bit on the homestretch. But you are also a very old man.
John Shull 49:34
I am you should see my book collection.
Nick VinZant 49:38
How many submarines Do you have? How many books about submarines? Do you have now any more new submarine books
John Shull 49:44
have read zero submarine books in 2024 audio
Nick VinZant 49:47
tape because your eyes are gone?
John Shull 49:50
No. Surprisingly enough, man. That's a whole nother conversation.
Nick VinZant 49:55
Oh boy. Yeah, he's going I really they're not they're not
John Shull 49:59
getting any better. Yeah, that's for sure.
Nick VinZant 50:01
Well, let's just not talk about it. My number five is 2525, I think is a big birthday because it's the car insurance birthday. And you really noticed that stuff starts to get cheaper like 25. I was like, Yeah, car insurance going down. 25 is a big year.
John Shull 50:18
Yeah, I it's not on my list. But you know,
Nick VinZant 50:22
you're kind of established as a like a young adult.
John Shull 50:26
My number four, I'm gonna go with 13 Not 16. Not 10. But 13.
Nick VinZant 50:34
Okay, why 13? Because he beauty first time little Johnny was able to notice in some girls around town,
John Shull 50:43
don't you worry about little Johnny. No, I feel like 13 You're still you're still a kid. You don't you haven't been exposed to a lot of like the adult. Like, I feel like when you're 16 it's, you know, maybe a little drinkin maybe some girls or boys, whatever, you know, whatever. But when you're 13 you're still like, yeah, I want you know, trading cards, and GI Joes and Barbies and play sets. And you know, you're still kind of a kid at heart at 13. And, for me, you can see that yeah, for me 13 was a special birthday because it's like one of the first birthdays I remember where I got, like, you know, gifts and stuff. So
Nick VinZant 51:22
I don't really remember any of my birthdays is like a kid. But I can see that I would put that age closer to 10 to 1213. You're probably an eighth grader. You're like, I'm getting ready to go to high school in high school and go
John Shull 51:35
fast and get chicks anyways. All right.
Nick VinZant 51:39
My number four is 18. It's more like a trap birthday. Like, oh, now you're a responsible adult, and you can be legally prosecuted as an adult. But you don't really get a lot of benefits. Yeah,
John Shull 51:51
you're right. I think you said a perfectly 18 is a trap birthday. Like it's Do you even remember? 18? Not really me either.
Nick VinZant 52:01
Yeah, it is like 18 is a trap birthday. Because you get all the responsibility, but none of the rewards. Yeah, like, oh, you can buy cigarettes like
John Shull 52:14
my dad Newports since I was 11.
Nick VinZant 52:17
That's kind of crazy that the trade off for being 18 is like you can buy cigarettes. Oh, and also we can draft you to go fight in a war. But you can buy cigarettes. Like that's a trap birthday.
John Shull 52:28
Once again, it's rules that don't make a whole lot of sense. Because you're number three. So once again, I did like, future me. And I put 75 as my number three.
Nick VinZant 52:42
I don't think you're gonna make it to 75. Man. Oh, I mean, how do you know that you're like, that's not a given. 75 is like I don't?
John Shull 52:51
What's it? I'm just going to
Nick VinZant 52:53
death is approaching like, congratulations, you ain't come you don't have to do this much longer. I
John Shull 52:58
put 75 on the list. Because in my mind, I feel if I am able to get to 75 How wonderful would it be to look back on your life on that day and just think of all the things you've done accomplished your family? Maybe your loved ones still with you? Like, I feel like 75 years still meant most? Well, not most, you have the possibility of still being mentally there. But like, obviously, you're diminishing a little bit. So like, it's, I feel like it's a last big birthday. Number wise once you get up that high to where you can kind of cognitively be aware.
Nick VinZant 53:36
Okay, I can kind of see that. I think it would be a big birthday. But that's really going to depend on your life. Like if you're in pretty good health 75 is could be a great birthday. But if things are going downhill, it's not gonna be a good year for you like, oh, it's only gonna get worse.
John Shull 53:50
I mean, you ever seen Brendan Fraser in the whale? Because that's where I had. Oh,
Nick VinZant 53:56
no, you working out now. Oh, God, you just weren't working out. My number three is 20 My number three is 21. Okay, it's kind of cool. It wasn't that big of a deal. Because I mean, for us, like at that age, you are already doing all that stuff anyway. It's not like oh, I'm 21 now it's first time. So but it's kind of cool. I think 21 is a big birthday.
John Shull 54:17
I agree the 21 is most definitely a big birthday. So I mean, I have 75 I'm gonna go to the other extreme now and I'm going to put the age of eight as my number two.
Nick VinZant 54:32
Oh, okay. Like a little kid birthday. I mean, he's probably pretty sweet like birthday parties and stuff. Yeah,
John Shull 54:38
birthday parties all your friends are there you know, once again you're eight years old right? So you don't have to worry about the cops you have to worry about breaking right laws rules. You can chuck a you know a ball pit ball at some dad and piss him off and he can't do anything to you. You know, just a it's like, I feel like eight is the perfect sweet spot to be a little kid like a little little kid and have fun and birthday party. My
Nick VinZant 55:01
number two is 30. Okay, I think 30 is the year when suddenly all of all things just 30 is the year when everything becomes okay. Like you just suddenly like, you have all these problems at 29. And then you turn 30. And you're just like, all right. It's life. No big deal. See, it comes, okay.
John Shull 55:26
I think actually 30 it got worse for me. I felt like I didn't have any real worries until I hit 30. And then everything has piled on now.
Nick VinZant 55:38
But I think you finally realize that you can only do what you can do. I feel like that's what happens at 30. You realize, like, I can only do what I can do. I can't control this
John Shull 55:47
other stuff. It's a little bit of maturity coming in there.
Nick VinZant 55:51
Yeah, I bet we both have seen number one. cheered number one.
John Shull 55:54
We do not actually, my number one is 21. Oh,
Nick VinZant 55:59
you don't have 16 on there at all. That's like the that's 16 or driving age, wherever you live, I think is the biggest birthday. Because that is your first taste of real independence as a person.
John Shull 56:12
No, I don't have I don't have an over 16 of 1820 ones on there. Just because 21 is kind of like that final hurrah of your childhood if you're able to, you know, live I guess the American dream, so to speak, go to college, whatever. Like 21 is kind of like well, I'm gonna be graduating soon out of the real world. Like, and plus my 21/21 birthday party was fantastic. So
Nick VinZant 56:41
did you did you have a drink?
John Shull 56:45
two fists, actually. Oh, oh, it was oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Nick VinZant 56:50
Rough day. The next day. I didn't do that at all. I feel like I've never really had the desire to get purposely just sick hammered. But yeah, it's not fun.
John Shull 57:00
I've been with you on multiple occasions where it just happens. Yeah, it just happens.
Nick VinZant 57:05
But I wasn't trying to be like, I'm gonna put both of these down. Do you have any arm dimensions? I
John Shull 57:11
mean, not not robbing. You kind of mentioned them. I mean, I do have 16 on the arrow mentioned, but just because I feel like you have to have that. I also have 40 If I haven't turned 40 yet, but I feel like 40 is another gateway birthday. But other than that, not really. When's your birthday?
Nick VinZant 57:27
March 16 Oh, I know. I know. Yeah. Coming up.
John Shull 57:31
It is coming up on Saturday
Nick VinZant 57:32
for anybody listening to give me gift. Donate donate to your local me. Just send me money.
John Shull 57:40
We'll put out your your venmo Venmo donate to my Venmo well start a GoFundMe for free birthday.
Nick VinZant 57:46
Can any Can you just start a GoFundMe for no reason like GoFundMe cuz I need money.
John Shull 57:52
I mean, I think you can I mean, I don't see why. Why you could
Nick VinZant 57:58
just provide nothing GoFundMe for no reason whatsoever. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really helps out the show and let us know what you think are the best birthdays. I don't really know why. A 35 ish year old man is saying that 50 and 75 are the best birthdays but he's an old soul.