Monster Truck Driver Coty Saucier

Growing up Coty Saucier dreamed of driving a monster truck. Now, he races them while backflipping over 60 foot jumps. We talk monster trucks, racing and more. Then, a special vehicular Top 5.

Interview with Monster Energy Monster Truck Driver Coty Saucier

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, monster trucks and ridiculous cars,

Coty Saucier 0:21

it's everything from being on a roller coaster that you are in control of the track direction mixed with standing at the edge of a cliff with about 1000 foot drop off in front of you. So all that combined is just it's intimidating. It's exciting. It's it's just a rush like no other. we'd stop at a red light and I'd shut the truck off so wouldn't get hot and there's people pulling up next to me like the hills, a monster truck tune in and turning way,

Nick VinZant 0:51

can you look back on a spot on a moment in your life, where you could say I should have made a different decision here. I screwed my life up here. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So our first guest has one of these jobs, that I think anybody who's seen this on TV or in person thinks for at least a second. Man, it'd be cool to drive one of those things. He is the driver of the Monster Energy monster truck. This is monster truck driver, Cody Saucier, what's it like driving a monster truck,

Coty Saucier 1:35

it's tough to put into words. But the best explanation that I can give. It's everything from being on a roller coaster that you are in control of the track direction, and what loops it takes and what high speed curves it takes. And if it's going to go forward. And if it's even going to go backwards, mixed with standing at the edge of a cliff with about 1000 foot drop off in front of you. So all that combined is just the ultimate adrenaline rush. I've rented ridden dirt bikes before and I've jumped big on those things. But it just doesn't compare to the size and the power of the trucks because it's it's deceiving. You know, they're not supposed to do what we do with them. And then to get inside and strap in and do the things we do. It's it's intimidating, it's exciting. It's, it's just a rush like no other.

Nick VinZant 2:29

Is it because of like the raw power the horsepower? Is it because of like, this thing's hard to control? Is it because of the jump or just kind of like all of the above? Um,

Coty Saucier 2:41

They do you have big power. To me, they don't have enough power. But what they can be dangerous. I mean, it's not sugar coated, they can be very dangerous to the driver. So you got to respect the and and drive it with some respect and, but just to think like, Man, I'm getting ready to hit this jump that's in front of me, that's four times the height of the truck itself and send this thing, easily 100 feet in distance, that's nothing, and it's gonna go 60 feet in the air. And that's nothing. So just to think about what you're doing in the trucks is just, it's pretty impressive.

Nick VinZant 3:16

I didn't realize he was that those jumps with that hire that far. Like, he doesn't know quite like that on TV.

Coty Saucier 3:23

It doesn't, but you go to some of the events, you know, and they have these pit parties that are out on the track before the event. And you know, you could walk around and see the trucks up close and actually walk on the track and I get it all the time from from a lot of newcomers obviously like man, I jumped in look like that on television. I'm like, Well, welcome to our world. It seems like they get bigger every weekend for us. But yeah, man, they the dirt crew that that Monster Jam has is those guys are also man, they they try to nail it every weekend given us the same faces. I say faces the other the face of the ramp every weekend and things change. And especially during the freestyle events, you know, the first guy to go out can kind of make or break how the rest of the field is going to perform. Because if he goes out there and knocked all the ramp down will now you get to work to do to make yourself look

Nick VinZant 4:17

I would have assumed like guys like 15 feet high and maybe like two cars long. I did not read that's Damn.

Coty Saucier 4:25

Yeah, there's some big stuff out there, man there, you know, the piling up school buses side by side and stack and cars inside of them. And then they're piling dirt beside it. And they're like, Okay, good luck.

Nick VinZant 4:38

Have you ever gone up to one and been like, Hey, man, I don't know about this jump. I don't think we should add the lava and the flaming hoop and the alligators all the same time. Have you ever had like an instance where I don't know if I want to do this one?

Coty Saucier 4:51

Often Yes, but it's not to say that we don't go for it. Anyway, we'll make some changes. We'll tell the dirt crew like hey, Man that that that just looks a little too steep, you know, it's just not going to, it's not going to have the effect that you're looking for, you know, take it from us, we're behind the wheel, if if the dirt is cut out, then it's just it's not going to make for what you think it's going to do. So we constantly make changes and you're in control of vehicles. If there's something out there, you don't want to hit and by all means, you don't have to hit it. Some things are extremely intimidating. I, you know, I see it all the time. It's like, Man, that's, that's a straight up wall right there. I'm gonna go drive around that.

Nick VinZant 5:32

Is this something that you set out to do? Or is this something that just happened?

Coty Saucier 5:36

As a kid man, I have always been intrigued by the trucks in particular, I mean, I'm a gearhead my whole life, I've followed all forms of Motorsports. But just something about the trucks. I don't know as a young kid, if it was like a cartoon come to life kind of thing. And, you know, the trucks are big, they're loud and intimidating and scary. As I grew older, and like, you know, I got more mechanically inclined and knowledgeable. like, Man, these things really are frickin cool. So, at an early age, I just fell in love and like, man, I would like to try that one day and my love for that in baseball. I wanted to be a pro baseball player and make enough money to have my own monster truck. Well, that no none of that ever happened. I had to go work for somebody that had their monster truck and I could go play there. So here I am.

Nick VinZant 6:26

Do you fill out like a job application to be the driver? I mean, how does that you just work your way up? Or how does that process work?

Coty Saucier 6:33

You know, kind of like other forms of motorsport you work your way up from the bottom I literally started just kind of volunteering my time when the events would come around me I would just I would just go and hey, do you need any help doing anything? I've I've got two hands I'm willing to work I've got my work boots on let's let's do something so it was slow at first you know all I got was like a yeah kid Yeah, you can you can wipe the truck off if you like or at the end of the show you know come back and you can roll up extension cords for us and help us pack the trailer that went on for the longest of times. And finally it just it it picked up enough to where I got my face recognized and my name known so whenever the guys did come back to my area like oh hey man, call that one kid up Cody, you know you can come help us change that transmission or something that we get a knockout before the event even starts so little by little it led to a part time gig to a full time position to man 24 seven kind of thing you know, living and breathing out?

Nick VinZant 7:36

Is this the full time living like you could you can do this and someday retire just off of it or do you have to supplement in other ways?

Coty Saucier 7:44

You know, I know some guys that what they're considered in the industry privateer or independent teams guys that you know i footed their own bill doing this stuff. Their entire monster truck career, like for example is a gentleman that lives right here near me in Florida. Scott heartsong, he has The Gunslinger truck. And he's been in the industry since the late 80s. And he's just made a huge name for himself and I respect the guy so much because it's always been just the name of the truck on the side and not a sponsor sticker to be found. And he's still out there taking names and you know, kicking ass with TV trucks and he's got to figure it out, man. So to answer your question, there's definitely money to be made. Absolutely.

Nick VinZant 8:28

Like when when you're driving the truck, do you do everything else too? Like are you the mechanic? Are you the I don't know enough about mucking around with any other hidden mechanic? Um,

Coty Saucier 8:40

it used to be that way. Yeah, my first few years driving I started competing in 2014. And for the following three years or three tours, I guess you could say 1415 and 16 Yeah, I was the kind of built my own truck maintain it going up and down the road, I'd stay out on the road with it, you know, we'd pack and leave for three months and that that truck was priority. So every day you know, you had to be hands on it there was something that need to be adjusted and fixed and it's like a full time babysitting job with the trucks

Nick VinZant 9:16

are a lot of people kind of long time drivers or is this something that somebody like you're going to come in you can do this for two to five years and get go on to something else like is do a lot of people stick with it?

Coty Saucier 9:27

There's probably more guys that have been with it for you know, several years if not decades. Then there are newcomers that are just you know, fly by night here one weekend go on the next there's there's probably more guys that have been involving industry 1010 plus years versus guys that are here for a season or two for sure. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 9:49

All right. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm gonna reveal my my ignorance about the subject. So are you guys racing racing? Are you like racing like, yeah, we're racing, but really, we just We're just gonna hit the jobs

Coty Saucier 10:02

it says heads up as it comes man we really nobody out there wants to lose we're all out there to help one another when the helmets off when the helmet goes on it's I can't wait to kick that guy's ass and then buy him a beer later tonight.

Nick VinZant 10:16

What? What's kind of the strategy then when when when you're racing does it like depend on the track the dirt, the truck? The

Coty Saucier 10:24

Yeah, man, you nailed it a little bit, everything you got to know, you got to know what your your own equipment is capable of. So a guy like myself, mechanically inclined, I like to think that I have a one up on somebody that may not be in the shop all weekend long, maybe one of these flying guys that just braces, monster trucks on the weekend or something like that. So we can always kind of sneak in there just just like any other form of motorsport, do your little tricks to set up the chassis just the way you like it to compensate for what type? Of course it is. What's the dirt doing? Is it sticky? Is it too low? Me is a dry is it? What is it? So you take all that in consideration. And then a lot of times, man, you just got to drive accordingly. And drive your own race. Because if you if you look at the other guy, if the race course gives you an opportunity to look at the other guy in the other lane. And you just record yourself, you don't ever want to look at the other guy. So I try to always just run my own race and, and stay consistent. It's kind of like bracket drag racing. Austin trucks. Monster Truck racing is like record drag racing, you always just want to hit your marks. And you got to be fast, of course. But as long as you hit your marks, you should make it to the final round. No problem.

Nick VinZant 11:40

How come you don't want to look at the other guy just because that the moment of distraction or because maybe what he's doing on his side isn't the same as yours. Or

Coty Saucier 11:50

for sure. Just that moment of distraction almost like a jinx kind of thing. Like, oh, man, I looked at him now. No, I'm flustered and I'm ahead of him. Maybe I can back off a little bit, or I'm behind him not gonna catch up. Now I'm driving way too hard. I'll just crash the truck because I'm trying to play catch up. So I don't don't look at the other guy.A lot of times, I don't even know if I want like I'm telling my crew. I'm like, Wait, are we good? Can I stay strapped in? or? Yeah, no, you're good. Like, you went six rounds, right? You're going to the final like, okay,

Nick VinZant 12:21

we actually have a ton not a ton. A good amount of like listener submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Coty Saucier 12:30

Oh, yeah, man, bring it on. I love to hear that kind of thing.

Nick VinZant 12:33

Who is more who is generally more interested to find out? You're a monster truck driver, kids or adults?

Coty Saucier 12:39

Ah, man, that's a good question. I would probably tend to say lean a little bit more towards adults. I'm 35 years old. I guess I don't look my age. I look younger people say I'm trying to toot my own horn or anything, but I look younger. So whenever I'd say I do this, I've traveled to excuse me. Almost 30 countries, racing monster trucks professional and they're like you do What? Are you ever going to grow up kind of thing? I'm like, No, I get paid well, and I love what I do. And it's a blast and travel the world and I represent, you know, a huge household name or household brand and the kids just kind of they see it, you know, they come up to me at an event and they just know that I'm the driver of that truck. Like oh, that's him. That's Monster Energy. I don't know his name, but that's how

Nick VinZant 13:33

they're they're more the truck. The adults are more like me. And that's a current job.

Coty Saucier 13:38

Correct? Yep. He's like, man, how do you land this gig? Or? Oh, he's like, did you go to school for this? And then it's like, the adults the adults are always more intrigued by the driver. You know his backstory than anything.

Nick VinZant 13:52

Could you or could somebody else right like can some another professional driver for the NASCAR driver that I can think of right off the top of my head like Dale Earnhardt, Dale Earnhardt Jr. Could he come in? And like, I got this I can take this truck or is it a very specialized kind of driving,

Coty Saucier 14:10

he could probably run the throttle, no problem and get the hang of that pretty quick. But everything else man, it's, it just comes with time. If you have some motocross background or even some like dirt track experience, something that's you know, a lot of RPMs and a lot of drifting and, you know, with the late the round track, late model stuff and then this motocross stuff, the jumping and knowing the position or the attitude of the vehicle in the air. combine those two things. That's kind of what monster trucks is it's Supercross mix with late model mix with Top Fuel or top alcohol drag racing all in one. So it takes a it takes a different breed of cat so to speak to figure these trucks out. And I've noticed if there's a newcomer coming In, you can always tell if they do well, the very first time that they get in the truck, you know, they do well, I mean, they can operate the front rear steering, clearly, you know, in a controllable manner, they know when the hit the throttle and when not to hit the throttle. If they got that kind of fundamental stuff, they're golden. A lot of people man the first time in, so you can see him struggle. And right off the bat, I can say he or she is not gonna make it. He is she's not going to make it he's gonna have poor performance or they're just not going to like it and just OPT themselves out. That happens.

Nick VinZant 15:36

It's really like it's one of those things you can do it or you can't.

Coty Saucier 15:38

Exactly it's kind of like playing guitar. I wish I could play guitar. I'm a huge guitar fan, but I can't

Nick VinZant 15:44

how much horsepower? Does your monster truck have

Coty Saucier 15:47

horsepower, um, my particular truck is roughly at best and at best meaning you know, right conditions, you know, not high in altitude. Not too much humidity. I think the best we've ever gotten man out of our dyno guy Richard midges, our engine builder, is right at 1400 horsepower at the crank. Port horsepower can kind of multiply a little bit with the gearing that we have in the trucks, you know, their gear, there's so many gear reductions in the monster truck to make the huge tires turn that you could probably add a couple 100 horsepower, just to the gearing so we're close to 1500 horsepower as the truck sets race ready? It's a stick shift, right? No, it's a it's manual valve body. So you have to shift it high low gear. Most common is a Chevrolet based powerglide transmission, which is you know, low and high, fast and faster, I call it so manual valve body, you know, it's got a foot brake, there's no clutch foot brake you holeshot you take off. Click second. And that's it.

Nick VinZant 16:59

That kind of leads us into this question. What is your favorite sound that the monster truck makes?

Coty Saucier 17:05

Favorite sound? It's probably there's so many sounds I come from, but I'm just old school with it. There's nothing like just a big blown alcohol injected motor motor with just as gnarly can just Rob Rob Rob at idle you know, I mean, that's it sounds so healthy. It's so macho. I think that's the coolest thing. Just hearing those trucks idle.

Nick VinZant 17:30

What do you what do you do with the old tires?

Coty Saucier 17:33

That's a very good question. I've seen so many different uses with old tires that aren't being able to be used anymore. You know, the they're been cut too bad or the beads have broken on the on the bead lip or whatever you want to call it is broken that they can't even seat again on a wheel and hold air seem to be used as landfills. I've seen them be used as like flower pots. I've seen them be used as elephant toys, literally elephant toys.

Nick VinZant 18:00

How do you get them on? Like do you is it take a couple of couple of people to do it or do you have to use like a machine to do it.

Coty Saucier 18:10

We have a pretty gnarly electric over hydraulic jack that we reel around and we put under each axle to lift one end of the truck at a time. So we can put two tires on at a time. I can hire up a truck, you know a guy that's confident and knows what he's doing safely. I can tire up a truck and by myself in 20 minutes. Really? Yeah, you they're kind of you know, you use your use the weight of the truck and weight of the tires to your advantage. So you just kind of push them around where you want it and then use the electric jack to kind of work with you and lift the tire up onto the hub and then spin it to where you got it lined up on the studs and shove it on there. And then and it's it's a lot easier than you think.

Nick VinZant 18:54

But they're heavy as hell though right?

Coty Saucier 18:57

they're very heavy man they're probably around anywhere between seven to 800 pounds per per tire. The entire truck fully tired up culinaire driver in it ready to go racing as they're pushing about 12,000 pounds. This kind of leads into the next question that somebody sent us which aspect of the truck are you most impressed with? engine tires or frame I would have to put this in order I would probably say the chassis design the frame design engine then the tires themselves. I mean, the tires that particular size, the chevron pattern that's been a staple of a monster truck since the very beginning in the late 70s. So the progression of that has come a long ways from them again me wrong, you know, there's spec tires being made anymore, but the motors I mean these engine companies and an engine component companies are always coming out with something new always better and you know, the cylinder has always bettering the the rod and piston And so that's always changing. It seems like usually that kind of makes a change for the better. Put the chasse ease man The chassis is or anymore. That's what's, that's what making the trucks be able to do what we do nowadays, you rewind five, even 10 years ago, there's no way a 10 year old truck could compete with today's trucks safely? And do the crazy stunts that we do. It's just just fatigue, it's so bad that they would not last,

Nick VinZant 20:31

do you have to constantly rebuild the truck or is it basically the same truck.

Coty Saucier 20:37

so we typically get about three full years, which is quite a bit of shows, man, that's probably pushing over 100 shows on a chassis. And after that, we cut the chassis apart, take all the components off of the chassis and put a fresh chassis underneath it, you can only bend and twist metal so many times before it comes brittle. Breaks easy. You don't always want to be welding on the thing because it just becomes unsafe, you know, for the driver, you just, you can't you can't be replaced in bars and all the time. So every excuse me every three years we put a new chassis in it. Good bad doesn't matter. It's just insurance for us. less work in the long run. Yeah, that's that's how we operate? Is it?

Nick VinZant 21:25

Is it safe? Or is it like, as safe as we can get it?

Coty Saucier 21:29

The monster truck industry is, you know, I've never been in any other form of motorsport professionally. So I can't really sit down with their rulebook committee guys and say you're doing this wrong, are you doing this right, but man, I have been involved for many years and have followed for many years. And the progression has come from guys wearing open face helmets wearing a lap belt in these trucks way back in the day to now man we're doing this we're looking at we work hand in hand with like, the Navy and stuff and we're using very similar belts that these fighter pilot guys are using. And that's the kind of thing we're messing with any more containment seats that are built specifically for the driver. You get a suit made you get a tuxedo made for yourself for a big event. That same dimensions of your body were taken into consideration to get these seats built. So the seat and each truck is built for that driver just so he's contained. Archie is contained that much more and is that much safer. We're using seven point harnesses I mean, you know, ever since Earnhardt's accident years ago, everybody wears some sort of neck restraint. I personally use a Honda device you have to wear some sort of neck protection and not just a net collar some sort of neck protection device that is held on to your helmet held on to the restraints in the in the seat. Because man we're pulling some extreme G's when we take these these hits, you know even just a landing off of a big job is is insane. Have you ever been injured? Knock on wood, nothing serious. But I'm sore the next day for sure. Because I made every jump is is a car crash. In the beginning my first few years driving my very first weekend. I'll be honest, I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. But I remember getting in the shower after that night. And just my thighs around my, my thighs down my crotch and my shoulder blades. It looks like somebody beat me with a leather belt just for being strapped in the truck and getting tossed around.

Nick VinZant 23:30

I once accidentally jumped a Buick like a foot off the ground. And I still remember landing and thinking like, holy crap that is not what I thought it would be.

Coty Saucier 23:41

yeah, man I've hit and i've you know, I've driven the truck around like moving it and stuff and I've was totally unstrapped not doing anything crazy. I'm moving the truck and it was fully tired up. Get the shocks were gassed up everything ready to go racing so I just move it. I traveled along first gear. Alright, I'm pretty high in rpm. I don't want to hurt the motor. Click high gear. I'm going maybe 25 miles an hour. And I hit a curb and a parking lot. It literally almost threw me out of this like on the ground out of the truck. Just there's so much tire bounce. And you know it's so it's so rigid doing the little things. It's meant to be jumped in jump big. So it's crazy how much we rely on the belts and harnesses and the seat to keep us safe with E in the truck.

Nick VinZant 24:32

busiest road you've ever taken it on. Like you can't drive that. Can you drive that street?Like that's not legal? not legally

Coty Saucier 24:41

No, not legally without permits and stuff. I have driven them. Yeah, I've driven them quite a ways actually. enough to where we had to refuel and on public road. Oh man, this was years ago like 2008 something like that. We did a display at a Ford dealership in Oklahoma City. And our Big was having some issues so we weren't able to go pick the truck up, take it back to the arena. So we got with like, the local law enforcement, they gave us a police escort and it was like, it was like 10 city blocks away. Back to the arena. We had to obey, you know, streetlights and stuff like that. So I got this police officer in front of me, way in front of me because I told him to stay pretty far ahead of me because I can't see directly in front of his truck so tall. I can't just see over the hood. You need to stay 50 yards ahead of me so I can safely see you. And we'd stop at a red light and I'd shut the truck off so it wouldn't get hot. And there's people pulling up next to me like that's a hell of a monster truck tune in and turning way.

Nick VinZant 25:44

I knew this is the wrong day to drive through down. Yeah, I do it. Yeah. Okay, so obviously your truck is the coolest name truck. But if you had to pick a different truck, like who's got the coolest name?

Coty Saucier 25:56

Oh, man, there's there's some pretty catchy names out there. Man. You know I've always hated when people compare to to wrestling monster trucks and wrestling. I hated that. But there's so you can't help but there's some cool names and wrestling and there's some cool names and monster trucks and it kind of coincides that way. But I mean, how cool is the Grave Digger? Like, that's scary. That's scary as hell and it's like intimidating and the trucks just badass. Look in. It's got this Grim Reaper dude in the side of it. It's like, that's pretty damn cool. I mean, Bigfoot, that's just that's a staple. That's just cool. That trucks look like a Bigfoot. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 26:33

That, that is kind of like, in terms of a viewer to like rank things like that's, that's some of the best names for that thing. Like, great diggers gotta be up there. Right? Like, that's pretty good name for that thing. Um,that's all the questions that we got, man, there's anything kind of you think that we missed or what's coming up next for you?

Coty Saucier 26:56

Oh, man, we could sit here and talk, you know, the past the future reconsider for hours talking about it. But man, it's just, it's hit or miss right now with events with what's being allowed, you know, certain cities and venues as far as what we can do event wise. So it's been slow. It's been, it's been a waiting game for a lot of us, including myself. So I'm hoping by July, we're back out there. I know, there's a lot of events on schedule, without a truck and driver list. So I'm hoping to get back out there sooner than later. I'm working full time at a full drive shop here. I live in Tampa, Florida. So I'm working at a four wheel drive shop here in the meantime. But man anxious to get back out there for sure. I mean, it's been my life. For my entire life. It's been my dream to compete in Monster Jam and monster truck. So you can't come soon enough. It just COVID is messing everything up. But we got to stay healthy. And if it means sitting out for a little while. And that's what we got to do.

Elephant Researcher Dr. Caitlin O'Connell

We look different but we are very much the same. Dr. Caitlin O'Connell has been researching elephants for nearly 30 years. We talk elephant behavior, animal rituals and the battle between elephants and rhinos. Then, we countdown a special scary Top 5.

Interview with Elephant Researcher Dr. Caitlin O’Connell

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, elephants and scary stuff.

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 0:20

It's really amazing how similar elephants are to us. You know, we talk about personality and character traits. Well, elephants have personalities too. And you know, there'll be the big softy the diplomat, they'll be the general, whatever's in their way, they walk in a straight line. And if something's in their way, you better get. And so that there's a big contention between elephants and rhinos. There's so many different subtle things that we can learn from elephants. And really, by looking in the mirror at another species, it's just a humbling reminder of our own humanity.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I have always been fascinated by elephants, because they look so different, but seem to act so much like us. Our first guest has spent the last 30 years researching elephants in Africa. This is elephant researcher, Dr. Caitlin O'Connell. In your study of elephants, how much are they like us? Are they very different? Or are they very much the same?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 1:39

It's really amazing how similar elephants are to us. They grow up in these very social large families. The males get that young adult itch to leave the family because they want their independence. And mom, she also sees that you're kind of being a pain in the butt to the family. And she also wants to kick you out. And it's a matriarchal society. So the mothers, grandmothers aunts, are leading. And really one older female is leading the family. But if you spend, you know even an hour at a waterhole watching the interaction between individuals within a family, they're so similar, you know, the little boys want to play with each other, and the older sisters there to make sure that the roughhousing doesn't get too crazy. It's, it's really fascinating how similar they are and how caring they are to each other and want to protect each other. It's kind of humbling to see how similar they are to us.

Nick VinZant 2:45

Do they have that kind of a social structure for a biological reason, like to survive as a species, they had to adapt this? Or are they just that smart, and that kind of flows from that

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 2:57

they are a social animal. And by being social, by nature, you depend on others within the group. And usually, you have to learn certain survival skills like for elephants, they don't know what to eat, when they're born, they actually have to learn what is safe to eat from the others in the family. So they'll go around and place their trunk in the mouth to see Oh, okay, that's safe to eat that safe to eat. So, elephants need to learn from each other to survive. And then the benefits of that is safety and numbers. They can deter predators, you know, if lions try and surround them, if there's enough of them, they can really push off the lions.

Nick VinZant 3:44

When I think of elephants, I always think of the big African elephant like on the savanna. Is that primarily what you work with? Are there other kinds of elephants I don't know about?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 3:55

Well, there's the Asian elephant, which has smaller ears and hump on its back rather than settle back for the African elephant. But most of my work is done in Namibia, which is the country just above South Africa, on the west coast of Southern Africa. But I found that there's so much to learn from one population and returning to that one population is more informative for me than to compare between populations, just because it's kind of like being an anthropologist, and you go out to study a social group, and you want to see how the dynamics of the groups change over time based on environmental and social factors. So it's, it's been really fascinating to be able to go back and see the same elephants every year and you know, who's had a new baby and how does that baby change the dynamics of the group and with the male elephants, who's on top of the hierarchy and how does it change when that there's a changing of the Guard, because I can ask questions about, say, you know, we talked about personality and character traits. Well, elephants have personalities too. And you know, there'll be the big softy the diplomat, they'll be the general and they'll be the bully. And these character traits really are durable that there they are the same until you get some, let's say, an inciting incident where the dominant bull disappears, let's say and two bullies at the bottom of the hierarchy. This kind of happened in my situation. Two bullies at the bottom of the hierarchy decide they want to climb to be the number one, Bull. But it turns out, nobody likes a bully. And they had to figure out how to be born diplomatic, where the dominant boy was really a master at the kind of carrot and stick politics. Like, I'll be really nice to you. But I'm also gonna jab you if you step out of line. And so these other bowls when he left, he disappeared, they had to then change their dynamic in order to be more likeable, which is really fast. It is very human.

Nick VinZant 6:15

What do you look at? Like, who rises to the top, so to speak? Is it generally through sheer strength? Or is it more through kind of like politics?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 6:24

Oh, it's character, the dominant bowl that we had, for six years, he had very small tusks, he was not the tallest. But his character was so intimidating, that he rose to the top of the hierarchy, you know, when these bigger characters want a bigger group, so they, they solicit these younger bulls to come and be with them. And, you know, literally, they'll take their trunk and kind of hold it over their back or say, Okay, it's time to leave and kind of push them out and force them to not force them, but invite them to follow them. And that means that they have to share all the resources with these younger bulls. So there's got to be some benefit. When a male elephant does not want a younger male to say adopt him as a mentor. They will not let them follow them. They'll shake their heads at them as they're leaving the waterhole, they'll make it very clear that they do not want this bull in their presence.

Nick VinZant 7:27

So then, where are the baby elephants and all of that, like, Who do they hang out with?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 7:32

Oh, the moms, the mothers, the aunts, the cousins. They're all kind of tucked in to the family. And they extended family reunions are just thrilling events. All these youngsters get to run around and play with each other. And this huge, elaborate greeting ceremonies where the females place trunks in the mouth is a greeting ritual. And then they urinate and defecate because they're so excited to see each other.

Nick VinZant 8:02

I did not know that I thought it was all like men and women grouped all together in a big pack. But so it's really just a pack of women and their kids. And then the men are just kind of wandering around.

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 8:13

Yeah, in their own cohorts. They have very bonded groups just like the females do. And very similar rituals, you know, when the dominant bull wants to leave the waterhole, he engages in the same, let's go vocalization ritual that the females do. And then there's a volley of responses from the other males. So they're very much like an intact family. These bonded groups of males,

Nick VinZant 8:41

do the men have much of a role in rearing the child

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 8:45

No, they, they may be able to detect relatives through smell like we can, mice can, many mammals can detect a relative through what's called the major histocompatibility complex, there's a gene that actually has a smell associated with it. That is a relatedness gene. And, you know, mice have this ability so that they don't mate with siblings, you know, there's obvious reasons, to advantages to know who your relatives are. And I suspect that male elephants might be able to do that, since they don't stay around after the meeting event. You know, they don't pay attention to who their offspring are. Unless, once that baby is a young adult and is entering the male society, then there might be some favoritism and decisions made to have more of a related group than not. And we know we see very different culture going on in the desert versus areas where resources are more ubiquitous. where water is more ubiquitous?

Nick VinZant 10:02

When you when you're studying them? How do you study them? And do they? Do they acknowledge you? Do they recognize you? Well,

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 10:10

that's a good question. You know, as a scientist coming back to the same place over the years, it would make sense that they would recognize, okay, here are these crazy researchers setting up shop again. But as a scientist, I have made the very conscious decision to stay in the background, and not interact with the subjects, because that would change their dynamic, we're there to watch them live out their lives and not insert ourselves into their lives. And it makes sense in a zoo environment, because elephants really want to have a relationship with you, you know, they don't have their whole society and the hierarchy of elephants, especially when there's only a few of them in the zoo environment, then making having a relationship with that elephant totally makes sense. But in the wild, it really doesn't. Inserting yourself into their social environment means that they're going to make decisions possibly based on the fact that you're there. And so we try to remain as neutral invisible as possible. They know that humans are there, but we don't, you know, seek them out, as you know, oh, Willie, hi, great to see you again. You know, we don't do that. But we have an observation tower, and everything's behind this cloth, called Boma cloth, it's like a canvas, so they can't see our interactions and movements around the tower. And we have a whole database and data logger of measuring scoring behaviors as they interact with each other and different set for the females versus

Nick VinZant 11:56

the males show our elephants endangered still threatened? What's the status there?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 12:04

For the most part, they are endangered. You know, in some areas, particularly in southern Africa, there are larger groups of elephants such that there, it's more of a space issue.

Nick VinZant 12:21

Are we actively doing something about that? Do we need to do more? Are people kind of just like this is what to do

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 12:28

We need to do more, you know, he especially protecting migration routes. There are areas in southern Africa that if we make the right decisions now, we could keep these large groups, transnational groups intact between Mozambique, Zambia, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, there's these five countries that have formed a national park with a plan to keep these corridors and space for elephants. And we need to make sure that that actually gets implemented because it's one thing to have a paper park but to actually make it work takes a lot of effort and a lot of coordination. And fortunately, in the country of Namibia, they have shown that people can benefit from having wildlife in their area versus more cornfields.

Nick VinZant 13:25

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 13:28

Sure.

Nick VinZant 13:29

Who has been your favorite elephant that you have studied?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 13:36

Well, I figure I'd be allowed to favorite elephants, one female and one male. That's true. The male that I like the most is Willie Nelson, named after the singer Willie Nelson because of his long, scraggly tail and kind of tattered ears. But it turns out that Willie Nelson is the diplomat. He hates the bullies and will have no qualms about telling them that look, we don't want you here. And we don't want you even drinking with us because you're such a jerk. And I love that he spends a lot of time on this. And he's such a net, just natural, nice, all around sweet guy. But he will not tolerate the bullies. And I just I just love it. And my favorite female is Big Mama. She has an enormous family which may end up not being a smart move for these females in the desert. But she is also the diplomat and in my favorites are the diplomats because there's a lot of politics that go on to really caring about justice, you know, social justice. She will share the waterhole where Other very aggressive matriarchs will not tolerate other families being anywhere near the waterhole, they will chase them without a question, but she will, okay, well, we can move over here. And she's just a really gentle giant, she doesn't get ruffled by anything. And that really has an impact on the rest of the family, the character of of a leader, and you think about human society to the character of Big Mama means that her whole family is kind of chill. And that's just that's pretty cool. I love that.

Nick VinZant 15:42

Have you learned by studying elephants? Have you learned more about elephants or more about people?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 15:47

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say both. I learned about myself, constantly reminded by elephants of turn taking behavior. For example, in a conversation, how many times do we overrun? Or do your friends over run the conversation? You think, Oh, my God, I can't get a word in edgewise? Well, when these females are leaving the waterhole, they will have discourse and sometimes heated discourse, but they let the other one finish their sentence first. And that is really cool. And there are some physical reasons for this, where if you one individual rumbles, and then the next one rumbles, and the next one rumbles, you're actually creating a much longer signal that will travel into the environment further, but also on a social practical level, it is letting the other person have their say, and, and that's really interesting. There's so many different subtle things that we can learn from elephants. And really, by looking in the mirror at another species, it's just a humbling reminder of our own humanity. And we can learn a lot about ourselves by really pausing and thinking about our behavior. You know, I watch elephants greet each other, I think, Oh, my gosh, we need to be that excited when we see each other. I mean, sometimes we are for a reunion, we haven't seen each other for a long time. But they do this all the time. And it's really important important hormonally it facilitate stronger bonds. Or sometimes even in your own household, you kind of forget, good morning, you know, don't even say good morning, don't look at each other in the eyes. But it's a really important ritual to greet each other. And, you know, I wrote this book recently, wild rituals, just because I was so inspired by watching all these different animals engage in ritual, and how important those rituals are to those animals and how they are to us. But we kind of forget their importance and just go, we don't need to be now because of the pandemic. We know how important seeing each other in person is and what we've lost by not being able to see each other not being able to smile at each other because we have to, you know, keep each other safe by wearing masks. There's all these things that that pandemic has reminded us of how important ritual is,

Nick VinZant 18:09

why do elephants make me cry?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 18:15

I, I would say, it's because they are incredibly emotional animals. And, you know, seeing a young male shaking his head at you and having their trunk all flailing about, they're so excited they wear their heart on their sleeve. And just seeing how emotionally similar we are, is, I mean, they'll make me tear up really, I mean, they make me cry often. There's so special. And so I think the other thing is when you know, I also get very emotional when I see excess facial expressions on great apes, because there's so similar to ours, it's just oh my gosh, we are cousins. And so when, you know, directly evolutionary cousins, but for elephants, they look so wildly different, but yet we have the same emotion. So it's just a reminder of how interconnected we are with other animals in nature. And and we're not so special. We are on par with these other species, not above them. And elephants are a good reminder of that.

Nick VinZant 19:35

What's the deal with the elephant graveyard? Is that a real thing? Or did I like see that in a movie

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 19:40

There are a number of different explanations for an elephant graveyard, but that kind of segues into grief and grieving. So some elephant graveyards have been explained by early mass hunting, for one that elephants would be all killed. You know, 100 elephants in one place in the early days when early, the great white hunter thought that no animals were infinite. But other explanations are that no elephants like to when they're feeling ill, an aging elephant, they don't want to leave water when they're sick. And so elephants in an area that might have an ephemeral or permanent water pool in the middle of the jungle that could have dried out over evolutionary time, elephants would go towards a water source to die. So that's another explanation of how you'd get so many skeletons in one place. But on the point of grieving, elephants are very similar to humans, in terms of feeling the loss of a loved one, needing to visit that loved one, after they pass, to the point of even wanting to bury that loved one and have a ceremony for the loved one. And, you know, I write about this in wild rituals in my grieving chapter, How touching it is when to see how elephants really feel that deep loss that we feel and the importance of expressing that loss, and also the cultural transmission element of elephants who have experienced a grieving ritual in the wild, coming into captivity, and expressing that grieving ritual where others that grew up in captivity, did not express that did not have ever experienced agreement ritual, and did not engage in the grieving rituals as the others do did. And I talked about this in the grieving chapter. How to elephants from Mozambique were imported into the US, and they had experienced a wild culture in their youth, and knew what a grieving ritual was engaged in that grieving ritual when the matriarch of that captive group passed away. So they have grief and grieving rituals just like we do. And they know the importance of engaging them.

Nick VinZant 22:23

slightly lighter question. Who wins elephant versus Rhino?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 22:28

Oh,that's a very good question. rhinos do not like to give way to elephants, they don't like to give way to anything, whatever's in their way, they walk in a straight line. And if something's in their way, you better get out. And so that has developed a real contention, whoever asked this question must know this, that there's a big contention between elephants and rhinos. And, in the end, an elephant, if it really wanted to, would probably win if it charged at the rhino, but really the elephants like whoa, okay, I'll go, I'll just step over here. You know, whereas the rhinos like, No, no, no, I'm not moving from my path. You're in my path. I'm moving forward. So I would say that in the end, the elephant is most likely to back down because that path is not as important to the elephant as it is to the right now.

Nick VinZant 23:36

It's not it's not worth it for the Rhino

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 23:41

Not worth it. You're having a bad day. I get it. I'm just gonna go over here.

Nick VinZant 23:45

rhinos do seem grumpy. They seem like a grumpy animal in general. Right?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 23:50

Well, the problem. The reason is, black rhinos are territorial and very territorial. And the males are very aggressive. And when they come across another one when they're drinking at the waterhole, they don't want to see that other male and they're very grumpy about it and very vocal up to it. So it makes sense. But for the white rhino, white rhinos are very gregarious, and they're not nearly as aggressive. But I mean, a rhino is very similar to puppy dog. It they are credibly. just adorable. They, they communicate with their long ears. And when they're when they supplicate they flatten them against their head and they kind of mu and they have all these supplicating kind of puppy like behaviors. rhinos are really under sold in there in terms of personality. They have a lot of personality and they're really amusing to watch.

Nick VinZant 24:59

Favorite fictional elephantFace favorite fictional elephant?

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:02

Oh, I have one that I'm writing. But published fictional elephant. I love that Babar.

Nick VinZant 25:18

Yeah,

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:19

it's the story is so tragic. I mean, you don't realize as a child, all the books that you read are so traumatic and, you know, I suppose they're they're trying to help you process grief vicariously to be able to experience it in a safe way. But so many terrible things happened to him. But I do love the story. And Dumbo I mean, how could you not love Dumbo,

Nick VinZant 25:47

Dumbo? There's no way an elephant could fly, though. Did you discover that in your research? It's

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:53

wonderful, that those big ears, it'd be great if they could

Nick VinZant 25:58

best name for an elephant like, oh, maybe you didn't like it wasn't your favorite elephant. But that was a really good name for an elephant.

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 26:07

Oh, well, I do have a favorite there. His name is Guk kulu. He's a huge elephant and very gentle. In fact, he's not a diplomat because he doesn't like politics at all. So he just sidesteps our main dominant ball. But his name came from the Zulu word for very large. And he's got these really wide splayed tests. And one of them's his right test who's a little bit higher than left. So you can see him from a kilometer or two away, you know, that guy kulu is coming. It's a beautiful sight.

Nick VinZant 26:45

So tell me about wild rituals.

Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 26:47

Wild rituals, is a book about animal rituals and our own rituals, and the importance of ritual in our lives that we often forget or just are too lazy to engage in. And I show 10 different very common rituals, you know, play greeting, group rituals, grieving rituals, and how these rituals are expressed in different animal societies and how similar and sometimes different for our own societies, but just how important ritual is in general. And, yeah, that came out in January, and we're developing a documentary series and it's it's really exciting.

Meditation Coach Lodro Rinzler

Stressed? Anxious? Depressed? Your inner voice can guide you through the darkest times. You just have to be able to hear it. Meditation Teacher Lodro Rinzler can help you find your inner self. We talk meditation techniques, the benefits of meditation and calming your mind. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Pieces of Playground Equipment.

Interview with Meditation Coach Lodro Rinzler

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, finding your inner self, and the top five pieces of playground equipment.

Lodro Rinzler 0:25

That meditation is, in this essence, a way of becoming more familiar with who we truly are. Every time we do that we are rewiring the brain, we are retraining it that we don't have to chase after every anxiety producing thought that comes up in our life, we can make a different choice choice to be present to choice to be mindful choice to be in sentence kinder to ourselves.

Nick VinZant 0:46

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I have reached a point in my life, where I'm constantly trying to reflect. Problem is, I'm not really very good at it. Because every time I tried to do this, my mind just bounces all over the place. And it's been like that for a while. But I think that the pandemic and what we're all going through has just made it so much worse. I think so many more people are dealing with a lot of stress and anxiety, and there isn't time to just kind of relax, and think our first guest is an expert at dealing with that stress and anxiety, and really helping people find out who they really are. This is meditation teacher lodro rinzler. So I think a lot of people have heard about meditation, but what what am I actually supposed to be doing when I'm meditating.

Lodro Rinzler 1:55

So actually, we get a lot of meditation teacher trainings. And the funny thing is, I always have to give them the bad news, which is a large part of the work we do is like, re educating people around this word and what they should expect. Because most people have been sold a bill of goods, which is like you see the magazine cover, and you think, oh, if I meditate for a moment, I find everlasting peace and bliss. And it should feel just about as relaxing as massage when in fact, meditation is actually us, learning to know ourselves better. My favorite word for meditation in the Tibetan language is golm g o m. And that can be translated as familiarization or meditation. And it equates the two, that meditation is in this essence, a way of becoming more familiar with who we truly are. So there's the sense of, I mean, there's a million types of meditation out there. But since I come from the Buddhist tradition, you know, the types I talked about are often based in some form of mindfulness. So mindfulness of the breath, for example, we sit down, we meditate on feeling each in breath and out breath, when we get distracted, we come back, there's something very simple about that. And yet, when we sit down to do it, we often find that our mind is a little over the place. It's just ramping thoughts and sort of a bombardment of thoughts one after another after another, so that formerly after mentioned, bill of goods that we've been told, this should feel relaxing, this should feel good and only feel good. We feel like there must be something wrong with me, if I'm experiencing something other than that, when in fact, it's just about every human being out there, that when you sit down to meditate, whether it is meditation, on sound meditation on emotions, or meditation, breath or any number of things, it's actually this deeper experience of just getting to know how many thoughts we really have, and then starting to work with it over time, in the same way that we might learn a new language, we might train, learn a new musical instrument, the more we pick it up in little bits every day, the easier it becomes. And the easier part here, it was simple, but now it's easy to just sort of it's like the volume of the thoughts gets turned down, like the actual level of the volume. They become less alluring to us that we're more able to stay with our object of attention, such as the breath. And as a result, we feel more of a sense of peace.

Nick VinZant 4:20

I can't get this done in five minutes, right? Like, that's kind of how I feel. The normal approach now is like, I'll meditate but I got five minutes. And if I don't have everlasting peace after five minutes, probably not gonna do this again. Do you run into that?

Lodro Rinzler 4:35

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's like, we want amazon prime. for meditation. We don't want to wait the seven day day. 10 day shipping, we want it like tomorrow or it's not worth it. And same thing here. It's like the science. There's so much science these days around meditation. It's like every week there's some new study from some University saying if you meditate just a little bit every day after a period of some weeks, you start to see Increased gray matter in the hippocampus in the brain using more activity in the ACC the brain, which translates to were more productive, we're more efficient, we're more present, we sleep better boosts our immune system. We're a minute away from BuzzFeed releasing the 20 sexiest reasons we should be meditating, like, it's really getting up there. But the idea is like in that fine print, there's this marker of, well, you have to do it for a few weeks, you have to do it consistently for a few weeks, you can't just do it once or twice.

Nick VinZant 5:28

Can you do meditation without the spiritual slash religious aspect of it?

Lodro Rinzler 5:35

Yes, absolutely. So there's, I mean, you know, we always hear about these things within religions, like the Buddha wasn't a Buddhist and things like that, right? He was a person. He's a person who tried, actually a bunch of different types of meditation then settled into just being with the body breathing mindfulness of the body, and was able to wake up in a really big way, which is why we say, Well, here's a good example of what we could do with these simple practices. But the idea here is that that is not a religious experience, that is not a it's, you know, because his words were passed on. And we have this advice today, when we call it a religious tradition. But it's not a religion, per se, as we might normally think of some of them. But the spirit of it has never been do these things on this day, and then you are good. And do these, if you don't do these things, or you do these other things, then you're bad. The core of Buddhism in particular, and I know you're asking about meditation in general, but I'll come back to that. The core of Buddhism in general, in particular, is that there's, we are all inherently wakeful. We're all basically peaceful, basically good. As is. That's who we are. And if you I mean, have kids, if you have a nephew of God, child of some sort, you know, like any, any sort of kids in your life, you see them come into the world, and they aren't sitting around being like, Oh my gosh, what's wrong with me? Why am I like this? That's learned behavior. They come in from the sense of, Oh, I'm, I'm good, I'm whole and complete. And then they get picked on by society. And you know, all the other influences there have, and start to second guess that. So this is not even like a Buddhist teaching. It's like we see this in our in our life. This is just experience that we might have of Oh, yeah. You know, when I meditate, for example, I might have a moment to just resting with the breath, and I feel good and complete, and everything's okay. In that moment, I'm not mentally freaking out about my finances. I'm not freaking out about my friendship. But what it is, it's like, I'm just okay, I'm here and present. And that's not a religious thing. That's a human thing. And that's just something that we can discover for ourselves. I think, pretty much

Nick VinZant 7:42

any rational person. Here's what has been said, what you've been saying about meditation. Here's what they have read, right? I think that this is something that everybody would agree like, this is a good idea. I should do this. But we just don't like, I've done it before. That was fantastic. And I just don't do it. Why do you think that is? How can we change that?

Lodro Rinzler 8:05

I don't think do you exercise in some form?

Nick VinZant 8:09

I do. Yes. In the mornings?

Lodro Rinzler 8:10

Yeah. What do you do?

Nick VinZant 8:12

Running? Basically? Great.

Lodro Rinzler 8:14

So you put on the shoes, and you step out is super cold in that moment? And in that moment, you don't say I can't wait to do this. You say? No, I'm gonna do this. I know, it's gonna be uncomfortable as No, it's gonna take a minute for me to warm up. And I'm gonna be tired after that to stretch. But I'm doing it because you have your own Why? Right? Like, it may. Yeah, because I like the way it feels after because I want to lose weight. Because whatever it might be, it's always very personal. But same thing here. I think there's discomfort. And the payoff, if you will, is a little bit less obvious than some other things. Because we could measure Oh, I've been running for three months, and I lost this many pounds during that time. We it's harder for us to be like, oh, I've been meditating for three months, and I am 10% kinder than I used to be. Right? Like, it's just how would you measure? I'm a little bit more present with my family than I was before is, it's often something that we are sitting out with people and they noticed that we're acting differently to see what's going on. Because I don't know. Maybe it's because you've been meditating. It's sort of, it always gets mirrored back to us. It's so subtle.

Nick VinZant 9:23

I don't like refer back to my spreadsheet and say, Well, I'm 10% happier today than I was last week. You know, I guess you mean, right? It's not a quantum easily quantifiable metric.

Lodro Rinzler 9:35

Yeah, it would be a lot easier if it was, but it's the effects are huge. And they are I mean, I work with people for years at a time. And, you know, someone would come to me and say, Gosh, compared to when we started working together a year ago. I just feel like I'm handling this whole chaotic pandemic, family situation, work issue, whatever.

Nick VinZant 9:55

It is so much better than I would have if I hadn't been meditating. Do you think Though that is from the practice of meditation, or because we know ourselves more and become with our Okay, thoughts, like, Where do you think that peace kind of comes from?

Lodro Rinzler 10:13

With this bombardment of thoughts? Most people don't realize that they walk around with this little inner narrator, I guess that this is constantly chattering the way I think like, okay, after this, I'm gonna go do that. And then after this thing, I got that meeting and what's going on with that person? Right, I need to talk to them about this. It's just constant, like chatter. And it's, we're listening to our own inner radio station there. And sometimes that radio station is actually quite cruel. Sometimes radio stations self aggressive. Why do you say that? You know, you shouldn't have prepared for that as a jerk. Why are you like this. And meditation, to some degree is like turning the dial down. And either not listening to it or not like, it sort of becomes background noise. And we're more present. Often in meditation, the I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a colleague, earlier, Susan Piver, she's written many books on meditation as well. And my favorite definition of meditation comes from her, which is substituting your discursive thinking for another object of your attention. So the conscious act of saying, I'm going to stop focusing my attention on that inner narrator, that radio and focus it on something else is radically shifting the way like it's just rerouting the out of the whole operating system. Here. I'm saying no, this is not what I'm doing right now I acknowledge the thought, I come back to the breath. Maybe that same thought comes up again, oh, no, I'm acknowledging it, I'm coming back to the breath. Every time we do that, we are rewiring the brain, we are retraining it that we don't have to chase after every anxiety producing thought that comes up in our life, we can make a different choice, a choice to be present to choice to be mindful a choice to be, in some sense, kinder to ourselves. And that's really good training for the rest of our lives. So that we can learn to be present. In every other waking hour, we can be present with our tea, we can be present with our spouse, we can be present with a good meal, and actually start to enjoy it more. How often do you generally recommend like somebody should do this, this often this wall, it sometimes varies. But I would say for many people, I would recommend something along the lines of like 10 minutes a day, and trying to make it a daily practice. Now, I also acknowledge that most people have like their nine to five or some version thereof, Monday to Friday. And then the weekends are a little different. And so it's sort of hard to get into real rhythm. Because there's sort of two cycles, there's the a cycle of like my work day schedule, and then my B cycle weekend cycle. So if a daily practice ended up becoming five days a week, for example, because we get thrown off here and there. I think that's the end of the world. But I do think starting at that 10 minute mark is really powerful. Because quite frankly, we all do have 10 minutes a day, I work with all sorts of people who are, you know, hold really rigorous jobs, people who have kids and their kids are sitting on their lap while they meditate, like, people make it work, which is it's beautiful to see. But 10 minutes, we all we all can do it somewhere in there. It's interesting, right? Like jump times, your brain gets so tired that I feel like I've been doing all this stuff all day. I don't have time to think anymore.

Right? Like, can you just meditate just sitting on the couch?

Unknown Speaker 13:30

You can I mean, I often think it's a great thing to sort of have an established corner or an established chair or something that says that's where I go to meditate something that magnetizes and says that's where I go to do the thing. Absolutely, I think that can be really helpful. And again, it doesn't have to be elaborate. It could be could be meditation cushion, we can mark the space with an incense burner, a candle an image of someone we admire a statue, any number of things. But suddenly it's like, oh, yeah, that's where I get to meditate. That can be really helpful in setting up a practice. But to answer the question more directly because I've been all over I there's like always the simple answer, then there's the inspiring, but yes, you could absolutely meditate on the couch and you know, I often do you know, like that's in a finished the morning coffee or tea and I say, Okay, I've got some time and I just sort of settle in and I, I just practice there. But I think it gets a little chaotic if for example, we do have kids and they're running around and they want to play with us or whatever version.

Nick VinZant 14:26

You mentioned, you've been teaching for a long time, what generally, what generally do you find holds people back?

Lodro Rinzler 14:36

self doubt, is probably a good one. I mean, not a good one. But you know, it's a big one that many of us struggle with that there is some sense of disheartened meant once we get going like, as I mentioned before, something must be wrong with me if I still have thoughts. I thought I should be able to sit down, maybe even press something behind the ear and then all of a sudden like the mind shuts off like a computer shutting down. or something. And I should just be without thoughts. And because I'm sitting here and everyone else's looks so still, they must be completely absorbed in the breath. And I'm sitting here freaking out about it, because I'm not very good at it. And they get very disheartened very quickly. Or, they do it a few times because they actually listen to a conversation like ours, and they're like, Alright, I'll give it two weeks, I'll try it. And then two weeks roll around, and they're like, I'm still myself. Like, there's some sense of like deep self aggression for so many of us. And the sense of doubt that I'm talking about it's not like a, you know, a doubt like, Oh, I doubt I look like an orange. You know, it's a sense of this insidious. I mentioned the inner narrator before my friend, in a co author of one of my books, how to love yourself and sometimes other people. Megan Watterson. She has a great phrase in there, which is our inner bitch radio set little voice, it's like, oh, my god, you're a little jerk. Why are you like this? What? Why didn't you prepare better for both? Well, it's just that constant, like, Oh, you know, that self flagellation that so many people do, like really deep, painful voice that is constantly undermining us. That's the same voice that says, Oh, I can never meditate. Meditation does help us turn that voice down. Or not buy into that voice. So much, I should say. But we sort of have to do a little bit to get there. And so it's, you know, the thing that holds us back from a consistent practice is also the thing that we learned to work with once we started a practice, which is why it's actually really helpful to come full circle to work with a meditation teacher on a regular basis to have someone that you either connect with in classes or one on one or any number of things that might establish relationships that when these sorts of thoughts come up, or when we get disheartened. And say I want to leave the practice, I don't want to do it any more, that we could come back to some sense of support. And I feel like that's, it's not like we need to find, you know, the wise person on the top of the mountain, we just need to find someone who's a little bit ahead of us on the path and who's been doing it for a little bit longer. So that they they can be like, yeah, I've been there. I know exactly what that's like. And here's how I worked with it.

Nick VinZant 17:13

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Lodro Rinzler 17:17

Sure.

Nick VinZant 17:18

What if I meditate, and I just find out that my life kind of sucks. And I don't want to meditate anymore? What should I do?

Lodro Rinzler 17:27

Yeah, it's a great question. So I mean, if you find out that your life sucks, then you probably want to make some changes in your life. So if we talk about becoming familiar with we go back to that phrase from however long ago, the sense of Okay, I'm getting familiar with what's going on with me. And natural discernment starts to arise out of our meditation, what aspects of my life Do I want to cultivate more of which ones might I want to cut out or, you know, at least cut down on? So if we're saying, Oh, my gosh, that friend, they're such a jerk. And we come back to the breath. Oh, he saw their friend, you know, what a jerk. And come back to the breath. At some point in my, you know, weeks of meditation, I might say, Hmm, maybe I don't want to spend as much time as I do with those people. It doesn't feel good to me. Right? It's like, even for the most dense of us, such as myself, we start to say, Oh, that's a choice I can make in my life, I can make a better choice. So we start to realize that some parts of our life are not so great, that we say, Okay, good. Now I have that information. Where do I want to direct my time and energy, and we can actually make, we can actually make good changes in our life. So I think that would be great. If you discovered, you know, here's some aspects of my life that I really don't like. And here's some ones I really do want to spend more time on. Turns out that I've got, you know, this group of friends that really inspire me, and I always feel like I have meaningful conversations with them. Maybe I spent more time with them can go both ways.

Nick VinZant 18:45

Ah, this person says, I tried to meditate, but I just fall asleep. Is that bad? Or is that okay?

Lodro Rinzler 18:53

I always joke that there is an ancient Buddhist remedy for anyone who finds himself consistently falling asleep in meditation. And it's really easy. And that remedy is to get more sleep. kicking a dead horse here, but like, if that's what you discover, and meditation, that's what you learn about yourself. Yeah, that's good information for you to have because probably you are exhausted, and you don't, you're probably not taking great care of the body. And maybe you do need to get more sleep, or maybe you need to prioritize rest and other ways as well. Like, actually, you know, taking long walks and not always being on screens, or whatever it is for you that might feel more relaxing. So that when we do go to bed, we have deep sleep, and finding that's actually a really big issue for many people in the pandemic. They're having trouble asleep. They're finding like, Oh, you know, I'm staring at this screen all day and I'm staring at that screen all night and then they get into bed. And there's all these worries, I never actually take any time to talk to anyone about them. And I've just stayed up and I feel wired and you know, I've been exhausted during the day and I Up all night. And I think if that is the case for this person or anyone out there, I think we really do need to do some deep body relaxation. And we always start meditation classes with, at least to me, work that I do with actually getting into the body and getting to know the body. When we get in bed, that's time that we might want to sleep. When we meditate, there's actually time that we're trying to be wakeful. That's the time that we might move into a sense of relaxation, where we are present and relaxed. The goal is to be relaxed and open and wakeful, to be present to what's currently going on so that we can become more present to what's going on in the rest of our life. But here, we find that we're like toppling over. In addition to getting more sleep, there are some things I would recommend one would be to do some simple stretching so that we get into the body early, even before we do the short body scan. Another would be to drink some water or some, you know, some green tea, something that isn't like going to like wire us but something that does wake up in the body a little bit, there are certain things that we can do. And even in the posture itself, like sometimes we find that people like slouched over a lot. And this, you know, that's actually not helpful in terms of rousing the energy in the body. So even lifting up through the top of the head, and elongating the spine can bring about some sense of energy, keeping the shoulders slightly back, keeping the palms down on the thighs. These actually make us feel a little bit more uplifted, even though we're also feeling relax. So that's sort of the less snarky answer. But I do suspect for anyone who consistently as far as the meditation, that they might need to look at their sleep cycle and whether they are getting the rest of the need, particularly as I mentioned, in this pandemic,

Nick VinZant 21:45

there are many different kinds of motivation or motivation, meditation, I mean, is one kind superior to the other, in your opinion.

Lodro Rinzler 21:53

It's a great question. And I'm going to be diplomatic. I mean, obviously, I've got a preference, but I come from a Buddhist tradition. So I'm gonna be like everyone should be doing mindfulness, mindfulness of the breath is a great place to start. Part of that is because it is so easy, so simple, the technique, right, we take an uplifted and relaxed posture, we connect to the body breathing, when we get distracted, we come back to the breath, you Those are the three steps, you just learned them. Congratulations, you can go meditate, which is a little bit different than some other traditions where we might need to go through a weekend retreat to receive a mantra, which is, you know, a particular phrase that we would repeat, where we need to create a particular situation that were listened to pleasant sound, or we, you know, focus on emotions and emotions are often very ephemeral and very difficult to focus on for somebody who's brand new to it until it's self worth. So I have a preference, but at the same time, it's a little bit like asking me is asking you a guitar player. what's what's the best musical instrument? The guitar player is probably gonna say guitar, same thing.

Nick VinZant 22:52

What inspired you to write the write your new book, take back your mind?

Lodro Rinzler 22:56

Yeah, so the new book, take back your mind Buddhist advice for anxious times? And it's, I mean, the short answer is anxious times. It's like the last part of the title. Right? Right, that we live in these ridiculous anxious times. Now, I grew up with anxiety, even though I started meditating when I was six, but like this was, you know, there was a lot of issues that came up from my life, different forms of anxiety that arose deep losses in my life that really pulled the rug out from under me. And even though I was a meditation meditator, and even a meditation teacher, I realized that I needed to also work with my mind, in all the post meditation hours to actually start to, like rewire around anxiety rewire around my response to the ways that I would hold myself back. And the more I started doing that work, the more I started noticing how many other people around me were also struggling in the same way. And this is a lot of what we work with in meditation, which is getting comfortable with not knowing, and uncertainty and discomfort. And like, for the first not the first time, but for maybe the first time in my life. It's not personal anxiety of like, oh, here's what I'm going through, or even interpersonal, like, you and your friend are having an issue. It's a societal anxiety. Like there's, even though we live in different places, the idea of when I say lockdown someone, you know, living in Australia, understand what I mean. And we're at a time where I just feel like anxiety is reaching all time high and yet, no one's talking about it. It's like this. He wouldn't be like, well, the second pandemic is blank, but it is like it's something that so many of us are suffering from.

Nick VinZant 24:37

Final question. What is the best advice you've ever given somebody? What is the best advice you've ever received?

Lodro Rinzler 24:44

Gosh, what an interesting question. I don't give him really good advice. You know, for all of my, it's, I don't mean to be self deprecating here. But for all of my years of teaching meditation, all I do is essentially share what I've learned. from teachers who were generous and taught me, so it's not like I came up with any of it. You know, whatever I share with people, it's something that actually comes from centuries and centuries of people who knew I learned, I learned with someone who currently is alive and to learn with someone, and they learn with someone, and they learn with someone all the way back for 1000s of years. So I feel like a lot of the advice I give, I'll just say maybe more recently around the book of in xiety, is to realize that we could actually make a choice around anxiety and working with our mind that we don't have to live in an HST. There's an analogy, an analogy in Buddhism, that you're in the woods, and out of nowhere, an arrow comes and hits you in the arm. And the thing we ought to do probably is to take that arrow out and tend to our healing. And yet many of us in that moment, when we feel wounded when we feel like oh, there's pain or stress or anxiety and stress in our life, we say, Ah, you know what, this is so typical, like, this is such a thing that would happen to me on a day like today, no one else gets hit in the arm by arrows. It's just me, like, this is no such a thing. I bet this was a you know, who showed me a bit it was that person who I don't like this is so typical them. And we just keep telling ourselves story upon story upon story. And that is holding us in that state of pain. And that is known as the secondary. So this is the two arrow analogy, first arrow, there's pain that comes up. As part of life, there are stressful situations that happen to all of us. The second arrow is the stories that we then read to ourselves to reify, that state of pain, to hold ourselves in that state of stress. And so I suppose the quote unquote, best advice I might be able to give around this particular book is we don't have to do the secondary, that we don't have to hold ourselves in that state of, well, what if this happens? What if that happens, we can actually retrain the mind to do something else to actually become more present. So that's the advice. And then the best advice that I have ever received? It's such a good question. I wish I could give a more thoughtful answer and give you the actual best advice. But the answer that comes to my mind, the first one that pops up, good advice that I have received was, my last book was on the topic of heartbreak. It was called Love Hurts Buddha's advice for the heartbroken. And I get more emails about that book than any other book, maybe not surprisingly, because that's another thing where people really feel like, no one knows my pain. No one's ever been through this before. And then they pick up a book like that. And they're like, Oh, this person, sort of highlighting all the things that happened when I have a broken heart. So it's very sweet actually, to be in touch with with readers about these books. I enjoyed that tremendously. But the, in that there was there's a lot of stories, my own heartbreak, and the learning and unlearning that I had to do, particularly in my 20s. And there is a moment where everything really fell apart for me that I had lost my job, my best friend died, and my fiance had broken up with me. And I called a friend, friend who coincidentally just had a baby yesterday. And I said to him, Brett, I need you to tell me that I'm going to love again, because I actually don't believe that's gonna happen. I think this was it. And he said, Listen, I know that you will love again, because that's in your nature. That's who you are. And I don't know if it will be a long term romantic situation that turns into marriage, I don't know if it will be other situations where people come and go in your life, I don't know if it will be lots of friends and family. But I know that you will lead a life marked by love. And that was so meaningful to me at that moment, in that deep, like state of despair. And when people reach out, there's literally, there's a chapter in the book where I tell the story and say, if you feel this way, send me your phone number. And I'll tell you the same thing. So I find myself calling people a couple times a week. This book came out five years ago, it's still a couple times a week, except for the people internationally who I have to I'm like, I'm sorry, but I'm just gonna email you back. That's okay. But I deliver the same message which is, you know, even these devastating heartbreaking emotions that we go through are impermanent, they're subject to impermanence, just like everything else, and that, ultimately, we do heal and the pain paid to some degree. And we do love again, that's not a low draft. And that's a human thing we all do. So that was beautiful advice I received and I'm happy now to be passing on to others.

Nick VinZant 29:41

I want to thank lodro so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him. We have a link to him on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Instagram and Twitter. And we have also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's go ahead and bring in a man who's great at fun himself but in a completely different way. JOHN jaw? What does internal you think of you?

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Fetish Wrestler Miss Scorpion

She'll pin you down, rub her feet on your face, put you in a chokehold and you'll pay her to do it. Miss Scorpion joins us as we explore the world of Session Wrestling. We talk wrestling holds, ballbusting and Peter Pan requests. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Nuts.

Interview with Session Wrestler Miss Scorpion

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, a unique kind of wrestling, and the best nuts.

Miss Scorpion 0:22

They want to be overpowered by a strong, perhaps muscular woman using some elements of martial arts skills. And some people, they just want it, they just want to feel it a little bit, but then other people that you are like, you're really putting him in a lot of pain, especially. And this is any men listening, especially for the ballbusting clients. He wanted me to run over his penis with my car.

Nick VinZant 0:51

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. Our first guest is fascinating. absolutely fascinating. There's no other way to put it. So let's get right to her. This is session wrestler Miss scorpion. What is session wrestling,

Miss Scorpion 1:13

I would put us in the wider domination world. And a typical exchange would be somebody coming to see me for an hour. And they want to be overpowered by a strong, perhaps muscular a woman using some elements of martial arts skills.

Nick VinZant 1:35

How did you kind of get into it?

Miss Scorpion 1:38

I had a good business. I was running a cookery school and catering business. But it left me very tied as to where and when I could earn a living. But in the meantime, just for my personal interest I'd gone on am a dominatrix course just for because I wasn't home in London, I want to explore like the kink side of things. So I've gone a dominatrix course with a lady in London called Kim Rob. And I thought it was going to be like, Oh, this is how you spank somebody, this how you tie somebody up, I thought was going to be quite generic. And this is how you do things sort of for a home user. Obviously, I really, really really hadn't read the course material at all. And I got to hit and it was really about becoming a pro Dom like a professional dominatrix. Like to our core. beginning I was really like, have my notebook and I was like, Okay, yeah, Uh huh. So I need my name. Okay. Yep. Mm hmm. Being a good girl taking all my notes. And by the end of it when she was going into like, and these are the sorts of thing sorts of services that different people are offering. I was literally like, jaw on the floor. You're like, I am in way of my head here. It was like a certain aspects of it. I was like, this sounds really good than others when she was like, okay, yes. So some people they offer like cysteine as a service, or they're doing like water sports or hard sports, and I was just literally like, the greenest person on the planet. Like, what's that?

Nick VinZant 3:13

You didn't quite know what you were getting signed up for? Hmm.

Miss Scorpion 3:17

I was literally like, she must have thought you Why did you not read what this is gonna be about? But I was we talked more she said, you know, you could be really good at this because I was used to running my own business. I'm used to dealing with people like a one to one like consultation aspect. I'm really highly motivated. And it would sort of tick the boxes for me regarding what I wanted from a business. And so I explored the sort of more what I would call the more traditional dominatrix work world a little bit. And, but it wasn't really for me, mainly because Nick involves wearing high heels a lot. And I really, really, really hate wearing high heels. I don't if you ever have you ever worn high heels yourself? I have not. I have not even just tried them on one day. And you'll be like, Oh, yeah, okay. Couldn't do this professionally.

Nick VinZant 4:18

So because of that you kind of trained you geared more towards the wrestling side of it, then.

Miss Scorpion 4:23

Yes. As Kim said, oh, there's this thing called session wrestling. I was like, Oh, what's that? And she explained it to me. Okay, so it's more of like a physical domination. And I trained jujitsu and Thai boxing and boxing in my early 20s. So I was like, Oh, it's just jujitsu. She was like, Yeah, I was like, right. Okay. I can definitely do that. That for me is just such a natural fit for me is just you just bullying people which I do used to do for free anyway, like rugby, tackle your friends when you're on a night out and things like that. You're just doing it. You're getting paid, and you're wearing really, really good outfits that don't involve heels.

Nick VinZant 5:04

So like a typical, is it? Is it a session? Was that the the correct word or what word? Should I use them?

Miss Scorpion 5:11

Yeah, a session. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:13

So a typical session, kind of walk me through that, like, What is? How does that go?

Miss Scorpion 5:19

Let's go for Nick as the newbie as an example. So Nick, when he gets in touch, he says, I've seen loads of your videos online, but I've never had an in person session before. I will be in London. In two weeks time, please, book an appointment with you? And I'm like, Yes, of course, you can, you've already really got in touch with a really kind of nice polite email, which is very important. If there's any guys listening who are thinking about sessioning, the initial email, very important. So I will go back and say, okay, the specific so Okay, you've watched some videos with a thing, some things in a video that you really like that you want to try. So you might say, Oh, and I really like, like legs and feet, I'd really like to try what we call like these things called head scissors, where you're basically getting your neck crushed by some nice firm legs. And very popular in my world. They want to feel like my feet on their face and be forced in what are their little abbreviation remarks before quote, unquote, to like, worship my feet, like kiss my feet and things like this. So we'll already have before the session starts, I'll have an idea of what you want to try. So and then you might have an outfit request. I am. So lots of people have come to me like shiny pantyhose, you guys would call it in America tights for us. So I will, within reason fulfill an outfit request. My best outfit request ever has been to dress as Peter Pan.

Nick VinZant 6:57

That's really injured. That's a good one, though, right?

Miss Scorpion 7:00

I think in in the American market. There's lots more cosplay requests than in the UK. In Europe. It's not so much about the outfit. Yeah. So when I got the Peter Pan requests, I was like, Oh, this guy's really thought about this. This is good. Did you do the hat and everything? Everything? He ordered that outfit for me and brought that outfit? I was had top to toe in Greenfelt,

Nick VinZant 7:24

that is a strong look.

Miss Scorpion 7:31

Yeah, I mean, I, I haven't had to wear it for anything else yet. But you never know.

Nick VinZant 7:38

Now, is it? Do you just tackle them? Like, are you wrestling back and forth for control necessarily?

Miss Scorpion 7:46

Like it seems like an adult. And so in the Wrestling World, there's sort of different degrees of how intense your exchange will be. So what are the main categories or main categories are like a fantasy session that the newbie might be like, I'm not going to resist at all, I just want the fantasy of maybe you want me to wear my jujitsu uniform, that's a popular request as well, especially for someone that's into feet. So I'd be wearing my like jujitsu gi, and you would offer any resistance at all, I would just put you in positions, I'll be putting my feet on your face. And that's at a level that some people are really interested in, they don't want to feel any pain. They just want this real fantasy, this, this feeling of domination, but it's very much more emotional. And then after that you would go to semi competitive where, for me the rules for that are and you can you will actively defend yourself. But you don't try and put any moves on me. Very often. When I'm setting with people, they don't have any martial arts experience. So for them to try and put submissions on me is actually really, really dangerous because they don't know how like, joints operate properly, and what is the correct amount of like, okay, we start off with gentle pressure and then gradually increase. And so generally semi competitive is the level that I would, I would allow a new person to wrestle at, because it's much, much safer. And that's so the next option after that is like a fully competitive session where you could put attacks on me as well. But that's where you're most likely to get injured. Like I've had a few injuries when I've allowed people to do competitive sessions, so I generally don't take competitive sessions anymore.

Nick VinZant 9:46

In a competitive session. Is it really like you and another person potentially really, like trying to wrestle each other? Or is it still kind of like,

Miss Scorpion 9:56

yeah, I'm trying but I'm not really trying all the people That sexual muscle they know like someone comes in and you just see it in their eyes that they're like, this is like the UFC to them and no girl, no, go for it. And you just think, Oh, I'm gonna have to like, you give them a talk at the beginning. It's normally someone that's new and you say, Listen, you know, this is a fantasy scenario. We don't want anyone to get hurt. Yes, we want to have like a really physical session. But just like, breathe. But you get into it. And you can tell especially when you they're so hyped. they've watched so many videos for so many years, and they're really, really hyped. And then you just have to say, like, Whoa, like, timeout, like you need to, you need to relax. I've had people like, I had a guy and I was I had his back and I had him down on the, like, he was facedown on the floor. And he just, he was like a power lifter. He came up and he I was still on his back. And he slammed me onto the floor with him on top of me. Did that to me like three times. And I was just like, okay, you damage my shoulder? Thanks. Yeah, that was the last competitive session. I did. Actually I was about two years ago. I was just like, now like, I don't need to do this. The most annoying thing is like the flying elbow to the teeth. Ideal.

Nick VinZant 11:15

Now when you when you kind of do the wrestling moves, are we talking about like college wrestling? Like Olympic wrestling kind of stuff? Or are we talking like WWE? off the top rope? Kind of wrestling?

Miss Scorpion 11:29

Good question. There this again, it depends on the person. So I, I have training, I have some training in what you would call your college wrestling over here we would be at court like our Greco Roman or something, or freestyle, and I have some Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training. So that's more your submissions. Like an like people have watched UFC they've seen like a rear naked choke or an armbar or something like that. And by also have some pro wrestling training as well. And in the fetish world. There's particular moves, which people really like, and they're probably the more like old school moves. Like, did you watch any pro wrestling when you were younger? Uh, huh. Did you watch like the Iron Sheik and he was like, with a camel clutch.

Nick VinZant 12:20

I the camel clutch is familiar, right? That's the one where like, the person is on the ground, and you've got their chin and their arms are like, on your knees or something? Yes.

Miss Scorpion 12:30

Yes, exactly. So that's a really popular one people like things where their bodies stretched out, or you great find them and like split their legs is anything where they're in some sort of like tortured agony? Yeah, because then quite a lot of my clients will be like a masochist as well. So they're quite like some pain element to it.

Nick VinZant 12:54

For those kind of clients, like, on a scale of one to 1010 being the highest one being the lowest, how much would you say that you're necessarily hurting them?

Miss Scorpion 13:05

Again, it depends on the person, some people, they just want it, they just want to feel it a little bit. But then other people that you are like, you're really putting them in a lot of pain, especially. And this is any men listening, especially for the ballbusting clients. This there's there's a lot of pain being dished out there. And even sometimes I'm thinking, Wow, you can really take it.

Nick VinZant 13:29

So you're really kind of getting after it.

Miss Scorpion 13:31

Oh, yeah. I've had like people, a guy on all fours and like soccer kicked him to the nuts. Oh, yeah.

Nick VinZant 13:40

So look, we don't that will be a request. This this is something that our personal views on this podcast is whatever you want to do, you're not hurting anybody against their well. However you get down is however, however you get down. But in I think the thing that stands out to me is I'm not are they? Are your clients deriving pleasure from the pain or from the domination? Like what is it that keeps them coming back?

Miss Scorpion 14:08

Are we talking specifically about the ballbusting guys, or just them in general? Or the months in general?

Nick VinZant 14:13

The ballbusting is something that I have not heard of before. So I'm, I'm curious. I'm not. I always I mean, I've seen things I didn't think it was one of those things that like oh, people actually did that. And again, like however you get down is however you get down. I guess I don't I don't quite understand it. They're just looking for the pain of it.

Miss Scorpion 14:35

Yeah, yeah, but they wouldn't be it's the pain and then they'll have specifics about who is administering the pain as well. So I think it's like a big hairy man offer to kick them in the balls, it wouldn't be quite the same as like, what they perceive to be like a hot woman. Ah, is is that a common request? Um, I'd say maybe like one in 2120. But I do make ballbusting videos and they are very popular. I think the fantasy of the ballbusting is a lot more popular than the actual reality of it is like, because I guess that's a big thing. Like when when they say a woman has you by the balls, that is like her. It really means every single man knows what that means.

Nick VinZant 15:30

Right? You're, you're in total control of your most prized possession. Yes,

Miss Scorpion 15:35

exactly.

Can you like from a physical standpoint? I don't know what words to use here, necessarily. So give me like, some leeway on this phrasing. I think you know, you can ask, are you? Are you uh, are you a bigger woman? Like? Are you physically imposing like, do you? Do you look more? Or is it more that you look like you could really do something? Or can you really do something right? And in terms of like, dominate?

You asked me if I'm Matt hench. I'm all for the mice. I'm five foot seven. And I weigh about 70 kilos, which is probably like 150 pounds. I'm probably I know, I guess some people would look at me and think I'm physically imposing have pretty hefty size or like 25 inch thighs. In the summer, I have a six pack, not now because it's cold. And I like eating chocolate cake in when it's cold. And yeah, I'm reasonably buff. But also i'm, i'm really trained in martial arts. So my favorite thing is, guys, they'll come this like a guy. And I forget it was when I was working in Switzerland one time, he was this young, like kind of cocky French guys about 25. And he was like, in his email, you can always tell them the email, they can be a bit cocky. So be like, I'm very fit. I play football, like four times a week, and I go to the gym. And, you know, you can tell in between the lines of saying, so I'll kind of let you beat me. I would like, Okay, all right. And then we get into the session. And it always happens like about, I have like a bit of a I like to start a session in a certain way with a guy like that. So I like to score the first point really, really quickly, like literally within 30 seconds. And you can tell they're like, Oh my god, I thought they were gonna have to like, let me score a point. But I'll just really like stick it to them early on. And then the next point, I like to really kind of make them suffer. So I'll have them pinned down in a really awkward position. And maybe they'll think they can get out. But I'll just keep them there and really tie them out for about five minutes. And then I'll like, maybe shit, talk them a little bit. And then I'll put the submission on a bit. And then I'll see they're about to tap. So I'll let it off a little bit. They'll put it on a letter or put it off until they're like begging. And then I'll like I'll score my second point. And then you just see that eyes just this look that I just like, Oh, fuck.

Nick VinZant 18:25

Good for you. Good for you. Yeah, you're

Miss Scorpion 18:28

just like, Oh, no. And then. And then they always say the same thing. They're like, I thought the videos were fake. And I'm like, I see that in your face. And now you've got another 55 minutes and I'm gonna fuck you up.

Nick VinZant 18:43

Like, so I'm probably would be one of those guys where I'd be like, all right, sure. Right, because men are just naturally we're used to being a woman. Right? We are definitely like that. And I don't know, if I was there ever. Like, oh my gosh, she's fucking me up. Okay, I'll just kind of ask this directly then necessarily, like, if it's a sexual thing. How are they? Where are they getting the release? Like, are you doing that? Are they going home and doing that? Do you have a like a side room? They go do that or how does that kind of work?

Miss Scorpion 19:16

And that is in my presence. There is no release whatsoever. What I'm sure the very second they step in their house. They're doing whatever they need to do. But no, I do not. I remember someone emailed me and they were like, Oh, so I'd like to wrestle with you. And then after you've beaten me, could you like, get me off? And I was like, Listen, Mister, I will beat you. But if anyone's gonna get off after I win, it would be me. I when I get what I want. However, I will do whatever I want my own private time. You are just getting beaten and then hoof out the door.

Nick VinZant 19:56

Is that is that your personal um code so to speak, or is that kind of common throughout the industry are the different, different wrestlers do? Do it differently? Like some might engage in that?

Miss Scorpion 20:09

Everyone's totally different? Yeah, everyone's totally different. Like, for example, and that is one thing I really, really love about working the fetish interest industry, because they're like, the options for what you can offer are gigantic. And you can literally just pick and choose. So for example, I used to offer competitive wrestling, which very few wrestlers do. So that was like something unusual that I did. And then I have some experience with bondage wrestling, where you like wrestling, and then you tie your the person actively tie them up as you're going, which is something that other people wouldn't do. But then other people might do more stuff in the what I would call like, the sexy end of things. And so, and then maybe they do like strap on and stuff as well, which is something I'm just like, no nudity, anything that involves clothes on, I will consider, I might still say no to some requests. But that is my like, big limit is the the nudity.

Nick VinZant 21:13

Was that always the case? Or was that something that developed later on?

Miss Scorpion 21:17

No, that's always been my limit. When it comes to me doing this work. Like I really, really love it. And it's always been this, for me is just a really natural boundary that is makes it very, very enjoyable for me. Like I know that anybody could walk through my door, and I could have a session with them. But if there was like, oh, what about if it was like slightly sexier? I'll be like, Oh, well, not him and not him and not him and not you either. And now not him either. So that just makes it is. Now I don't want to do that professionally.

Nick VinZant 21:57

How do you kind of protect your safety? Like, are you doing this out of your house?

Miss Scorpion 22:03

So I either session from I have a studio in London or a session when I'm like touring, which could be in Europe or the US or further afield. I get deposits from people, which will be so that's traceable, you know, like electronic payment is traceable. And then I have like, other screening processes as well during your initial email phase.

Nick VinZant 22:27

Have you ever had somebody show up? And then you just been Nope, nope, sorry.

Miss Scorpion 22:32

I had I think I've only ever had I had one guy turn up and his personal hygiene was really bad. And even though so when he arrived I said to him, okay, so there's a shower, in you go and I heard the shower go on. But he came out and his personal hygiene was still really bad. And I was like, Oh, they have a tricky one really, because I I looked at his skin and I thought maybe he has some sort of like medical condition because some people, especially if you do Jiu Jitsu you know that some people, people smell different. However, I was okay, because for that session, he requests I wear a cat suit. So I knew we wouldn't have any skin on skin contact. And he'd also requested to get tied up. So I just tied him up really quickly and sort of like died around the place. So I didn't have to have any any contact. Now how much what are your rates essentially?

Nick VinZant 23:20

Like how much does somebody charge for this?

Miss Scorpion 23:24

Do you want my rate in euros? shekels pounds dollars?

Nick VinZant 23:30

Well, as an American, I am solely I am ignorant of anything else going on? Can I have any other thing in the world?

Miss Scorpion 23:43

That sentence ends that the the my dollar rate, I think at the moment is 375 an hour. So that would be in pounds, you're about 250 maybe 260.

Nick VinZant 23:57

So this can this can be a pretty comfortable full time living, I would assume

Miss Scorpion 24:02

you have to work hard at it because it's there's quite a lot of people doing it now. And you can't just I can't expect to sit in London and like it maybe if I'm in London for a month I'll I'll have maybe maybe 10 hours of clients in a month. But I'll be in London to film. So that's like my main income is the filming.

Nick VinZant 24:25

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Miss Scorpion 24:30

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Nick VinZant 24:31

What is your typical client like?

Miss Scorpion 24:34

Are there's really I think there's I think there's a bit of a myth around the type of man that goes to see a dominatrix or you know, somebody like me who's in the domination world. My clients, I won't see anyone under the age of 21. So my clients age from 21 up to the oldest person I've ever seen, which was arranged for me by somebody else was 75. I didn't really Who's gonna be 75? I got there and he was 75. And I thought Damn, I do not want a session with you again, because I was worried that he was going to like die.

Nick VinZant 25:11

If they if they fit a certain professional kind of model like, are they usually more or?

Miss Scorpion 25:17

No, there's no particular socio economic grouping, you will see slightly more people who have got slightly more money just because of you know, it's in the day, it's a luxury service. But I've had someone come to see me that worked as a, like a pop washer in the kitchen. He would just save up and he would have like one session a year. What is your fate? Do

Nick VinZant 25:38

you have a finishing move? And if so, what is your favorite? Ooh,

Miss Scorpion 25:43

okay, good question. My favorite move is the rear naked choke with the body triangle likes my ultimate favorite, because you're like crushing their ribs. And then you're like, crushing their neck as well. And you're in such a dominant position when you're on their back to. It's really, really good. I used to use that. And I remember when I was training Jiu Jitsu at my, at the gym in London. And I mean, this guy, we're about the same standard is this. This French guy, we're both blue belts. And so we'd always have like, a pretty good like, ding dong match. And then we were rolling, but the other people in the class like watching us, and I caught him in this move. And you could tell he didn't while it's happening. He was making nice noises for like a minute like that eventually taught, but he said a really funny comment. He was like, Oh, I feel like I feel like that's my terrible French accent. I felt like James Bond when it we think it's Xeni on a top like, crushes him to death, I don't remember during mid scene. But I couldn't stop laughing because in the session Wrestling World that is like, a scene that got a lot of guys into session wrestling, because it was like, they saw this like sexy, powerful woman, like crush this guy. And they were like, God, damn, that is like, that's what I like. I've just seen what I like on film.

Nick VinZant 27:11

I would imagine it's kind of a world where people would be like, I did not know that about myself.

Miss Scorpion 27:17

Yeah. And I think it's like, suddenly you saw something and you're like, Oh, hold on a minute. This is I've had these feelings like, especially when, because those people who were like kinky that they that these feelings have been coming up from when they were very, very young. So you kind of had these feelings, but you can't, you can't really like put your finger on it. And then suddenly, you've watched a movie or you've read a comic or something. And you're like, Oh, that is that.

Nick VinZant 27:46

Are your clients? Are they shy about it?

Miss Scorpion 27:50

I'll give you some examples. So so one guy, he really really loved pro wrestling. And so I would meet him like a pro wrestling ring. And I would wear like, the shiny wrestling boots and the shiny tights and the shiny leotard. And we do some of like the like the camel clutch and things like that some of the progress and moves that we discuss. And, and I was like to like, chat to people. Afterwards, I was chatting to him. And one of the things he said he was like, all cold like really, really enjoyed this. But I'd be so so ashamed if my friends found out what I was doing. And I was like, you'd be ashamed if your friends found out you like rolling around with a hot woman in a sexy outfit. He was like, Oh, well, when you put like, that doesn't sound quite so bad. I was like, exactly.

Nick VinZant 28:38

I've never understood this social stigma around people's various kind of kinks. like everybody's got something. Yeah,

Miss Scorpion 28:47

yeah, I think there's, there's there's so much there's so much shame and stigma around desire. Yeah, they base it really hard for people. I know, like a guy that I dated like a little while back. He was really, really, really, really submissive. And he grown up in this like, tiny little town in Devon. And he was literally like, before the internet, and he lives literally like, I'm the only person in the world that's like this, you know, especially when we're in such like a male dominated society, like he would have been growing up in like the late mid mid to late 70s. And to be to say, Oh, I want a woman to be in charge. Like, what's wrong with you?

Nick VinZant 29:32

I would imagine can it be therapeutic for people?

Miss Scorpion 29:35

Yeah, he ended up having some like massive addiction problems because of because of these desires. And him literally been like, I'm the only person on the planet, there's must be something wrong with me. And then he went through a lot of therapy. And he's like, Oh, it's okay. I'm submissive. This is this is alright. Obviously it's slightly longer process than that. But yeah, hugely cathartic for him? Good for him? Yeah. Yeah. But sadly, there is a lot of shame around it for people for some some of my clients and like, I'm sure it's the same for other session methods I know. And dominatrixes and other fetish providers will be the only people that our clients will really speak to about their desires. most frequent request, most interesting request. most frequent request, I'd say it's definitely like this scissor hold thing. So it's just wanting to feel like the power of the killer. sighs Yeah. So maybe they want to feel like your legs, like crushing their ribs or their neck. Yeah, scissor hold. Google it. And then most interesting requests was the second one.

Nick VinZant 30:57

Yes, yes.

Miss Scorpion 30:59

Does this mean most interesting requests that I have fulfilled? Because you get like, you get loads of like, requests that you're like, Ooh, that's a bit kooky, but then you think you're probably a time waster. So yeah, some of them are like, madness. Yeah. Like the man, I'll give you the Okay, I'll give you one which was definitely a time waster but hilarious. And he wanted me to, he wanted me to run over his penis with my car. Which is, when you really think about it, I was like, Well, how are you going to do that? Like, I'm assuming he's an, you know, even if he's a very well endowed man, yeah, you'd have you like, on the edge of the pavement? And I'm gonna think, or am I gonna have to bury him? And then that's just sticking out. I didn't reply to his email, but I have saved it in the special folder, which I will be creating my book from.

Nick VinZant 32:04

Yeah, that's logistically, how do you even you'd have to be you'd have to be gifted in that regard, I think. Yeah. And also, like, you got to do it in a you couldn't do it like in public, necessarily, at least not without a lot of people wondering.

Miss Scorpion 32:25

Yeah, yeah, I was like, I think logistically, that's gonna be tricky, so I'm gonna say no. And yeah, so most interesting quest that I have fulfilled. I think the thing is, once you're in this world for a while, everything becomes like okay, yeah, so, okay, I get maybe maybe the pizza pan won, because the outfit was really like, really cool. And I had to be pizza pan. But I also had to do like pizza pan impressions. Which I will not do for you now. Because I haven't you know, warmed up my voice or anything. By to pizza pan impressions. Yeah, and he had a real foot fetish, then he would like the game was he would try cuz I had like the green tights and then like the green felt shoes, he would try and like wrestle, and he would try and take my felt shoes off.

Nick VinZant 33:15

Oh, that's another one I've like I've never quite just under was never my thing, necessarily was. I don't really have one at least so that's why I'm kind of like, come on. I want to know what it's gonna be. Like, someday.

Miss Scorpion 33:35

But they just think they just think it's normal. So like, in British culture in like, the 80s and 90s. It was like, big tits. Everyone, like big tits. And it was like, if you'd said, Oh, but that girl's got like a really like a really she got a really nice but like a nice big, but people have been like, but really like, a big tits culture here. So you're a bit strange. And she said, Oh, I think she's got really nice big feet ever been like, Whoa, okay. Now becoming accepted. And also in the 80s. If you'd said, Oh, I like that girl. She's really muscley people have been like, oh, you're gay. But now CrossFit. And everyone's like, Damn, that girl is like Bob, she's so sexy.

Nick VinZant 34:19

In it strange how things change like that. Right?

Miss Scorpion 34:23

So Nick, that is your homework to work out what your thing is.

Nick VinZant 34:28

Oh, I'm like, oh, someday I'll have a thing of like, I did not know that about myself. Um, um, is this a growing or shrinking industry?

Miss Scorpion 34:40

kink in general is becoming more acceptable. Like we're kind of discussing like, I think I was having this conversation like 30 years ago. People have been like, Oh my god, I heard the craziest, craziest thing. And now people be like, Oh, sure. wrestler. This is interesting. Oh, I was talking. I have another friend who's a sex worker. can go, it's like, people are becoming a lot more open. So I think there'll be more people who perhaps would have kept it as like their dirty little secret will now be getting like brave enough to explore it.

Nick VinZant 35:13

That's really all the questions I got. Do you have anything, anything you think we missed? Or what's coming up next for you? How can people get a hold of yet,

Miss Scorpion 35:21

because at the moment, the corona situation in the UK is really, really bad. So I'm just sort of sitting it out. So maybe I'll go back in session in May. But in the meantime, I'm making films again. So I'm back filming. And I'll just do that until, until I can go back again, filming the bigger part of my business. Anyway, I'd

Nick VinZant 35:42

say that's maybe 70% of my income. I want to thank Miss Scorpion for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have a link to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Instagram and Twitter. And we have also included her information in this episode description.

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