We look different but we are very much the same. Dr. Caitlin O'Connell has been researching elephants for nearly 30 years. We talk elephant behavior, animal rituals and the battle between elephants and rhinos. Then, we countdown a special scary Top 5.
Interview with Elephant Researcher Dr. Caitlin O’Connell
Nick VinZant 0:11
Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, elephants and scary stuff.
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 0:20
It's really amazing how similar elephants are to us. You know, we talk about personality and character traits. Well, elephants have personalities too. And you know, there'll be the big softy the diplomat, they'll be the general, whatever's in their way, they walk in a straight line. And if something's in their way, you better get. And so that there's a big contention between elephants and rhinos. There's so many different subtle things that we can learn from elephants. And really, by looking in the mirror at another species, it's just a humbling reminder of our own humanity.
Nick VinZant 1:02
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I have always been fascinated by elephants, because they look so different, but seem to act so much like us. Our first guest has spent the last 30 years researching elephants in Africa. This is elephant researcher, Dr. Caitlin O'Connell. In your study of elephants, how much are they like us? Are they very different? Or are they very much the same?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 1:39
It's really amazing how similar elephants are to us. They grow up in these very social large families. The males get that young adult itch to leave the family because they want their independence. And mom, she also sees that you're kind of being a pain in the butt to the family. And she also wants to kick you out. And it's a matriarchal society. So the mothers, grandmothers aunts, are leading. And really one older female is leading the family. But if you spend, you know even an hour at a waterhole watching the interaction between individuals within a family, they're so similar, you know, the little boys want to play with each other, and the older sisters there to make sure that the roughhousing doesn't get too crazy. It's, it's really fascinating how similar they are and how caring they are to each other and want to protect each other. It's kind of humbling to see how similar they are to us.
Nick VinZant 2:45
Do they have that kind of a social structure for a biological reason, like to survive as a species, they had to adapt this? Or are they just that smart, and that kind of flows from that
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 2:57
they are a social animal. And by being social, by nature, you depend on others within the group. And usually, you have to learn certain survival skills like for elephants, they don't know what to eat, when they're born, they actually have to learn what is safe to eat from the others in the family. So they'll go around and place their trunk in the mouth to see Oh, okay, that's safe to eat that safe to eat. So, elephants need to learn from each other to survive. And then the benefits of that is safety and numbers. They can deter predators, you know, if lions try and surround them, if there's enough of them, they can really push off the lions.
Nick VinZant 3:44
When I think of elephants, I always think of the big African elephant like on the savanna. Is that primarily what you work with? Are there other kinds of elephants I don't know about?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 3:55
Well, there's the Asian elephant, which has smaller ears and hump on its back rather than settle back for the African elephant. But most of my work is done in Namibia, which is the country just above South Africa, on the west coast of Southern Africa. But I found that there's so much to learn from one population and returning to that one population is more informative for me than to compare between populations, just because it's kind of like being an anthropologist, and you go out to study a social group, and you want to see how the dynamics of the groups change over time based on environmental and social factors. So it's, it's been really fascinating to be able to go back and see the same elephants every year and you know, who's had a new baby and how does that baby change the dynamics of the group and with the male elephants, who's on top of the hierarchy and how does it change when that there's a changing of the Guard, because I can ask questions about, say, you know, we talked about personality and character traits. Well, elephants have personalities too. And you know, there'll be the big softy the diplomat, they'll be the general and they'll be the bully. And these character traits really are durable that there they are the same until you get some, let's say, an inciting incident where the dominant bull disappears, let's say and two bullies at the bottom of the hierarchy. This kind of happened in my situation. Two bullies at the bottom of the hierarchy decide they want to climb to be the number one, Bull. But it turns out, nobody likes a bully. And they had to figure out how to be born diplomatic, where the dominant boy was really a master at the kind of carrot and stick politics. Like, I'll be really nice to you. But I'm also gonna jab you if you step out of line. And so these other bowls when he left, he disappeared, they had to then change their dynamic in order to be more likeable, which is really fast. It is very human.
Nick VinZant 6:15
What do you look at? Like, who rises to the top, so to speak? Is it generally through sheer strength? Or is it more through kind of like politics?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 6:24
Oh, it's character, the dominant bowl that we had, for six years, he had very small tusks, he was not the tallest. But his character was so intimidating, that he rose to the top of the hierarchy, you know, when these bigger characters want a bigger group, so they, they solicit these younger bulls to come and be with them. And, you know, literally, they'll take their trunk and kind of hold it over their back or say, Okay, it's time to leave and kind of push them out and force them to not force them, but invite them to follow them. And that means that they have to share all the resources with these younger bulls. So there's got to be some benefit. When a male elephant does not want a younger male to say adopt him as a mentor. They will not let them follow them. They'll shake their heads at them as they're leaving the waterhole, they'll make it very clear that they do not want this bull in their presence.
Nick VinZant 7:27
So then, where are the baby elephants and all of that, like, Who do they hang out with?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 7:32
Oh, the moms, the mothers, the aunts, the cousins. They're all kind of tucked in to the family. And they extended family reunions are just thrilling events. All these youngsters get to run around and play with each other. And this huge, elaborate greeting ceremonies where the females place trunks in the mouth is a greeting ritual. And then they urinate and defecate because they're so excited to see each other.
Nick VinZant 8:02
I did not know that I thought it was all like men and women grouped all together in a big pack. But so it's really just a pack of women and their kids. And then the men are just kind of wandering around.
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 8:13
Yeah, in their own cohorts. They have very bonded groups just like the females do. And very similar rituals, you know, when the dominant bull wants to leave the waterhole, he engages in the same, let's go vocalization ritual that the females do. And then there's a volley of responses from the other males. So they're very much like an intact family. These bonded groups of males,
Nick VinZant 8:41
do the men have much of a role in rearing the child
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 8:45
No, they, they may be able to detect relatives through smell like we can, mice can, many mammals can detect a relative through what's called the major histocompatibility complex, there's a gene that actually has a smell associated with it. That is a relatedness gene. And, you know, mice have this ability so that they don't mate with siblings, you know, there's obvious reasons, to advantages to know who your relatives are. And I suspect that male elephants might be able to do that, since they don't stay around after the meeting event. You know, they don't pay attention to who their offspring are. Unless, once that baby is a young adult and is entering the male society, then there might be some favoritism and decisions made to have more of a related group than not. And we know we see very different culture going on in the desert versus areas where resources are more ubiquitous. where water is more ubiquitous?
Nick VinZant 10:02
When you when you're studying them? How do you study them? And do they? Do they acknowledge you? Do they recognize you? Well,
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 10:10
that's a good question. You know, as a scientist coming back to the same place over the years, it would make sense that they would recognize, okay, here are these crazy researchers setting up shop again. But as a scientist, I have made the very conscious decision to stay in the background, and not interact with the subjects, because that would change their dynamic, we're there to watch them live out their lives and not insert ourselves into their lives. And it makes sense in a zoo environment, because elephants really want to have a relationship with you, you know, they don't have their whole society and the hierarchy of elephants, especially when there's only a few of them in the zoo environment, then making having a relationship with that elephant totally makes sense. But in the wild, it really doesn't. Inserting yourself into their social environment means that they're going to make decisions possibly based on the fact that you're there. And so we try to remain as neutral invisible as possible. They know that humans are there, but we don't, you know, seek them out, as you know, oh, Willie, hi, great to see you again. You know, we don't do that. But we have an observation tower, and everything's behind this cloth, called Boma cloth, it's like a canvas, so they can't see our interactions and movements around the tower. And we have a whole database and data logger of measuring scoring behaviors as they interact with each other and different set for the females versus
Nick VinZant 11:56
the males show our elephants endangered still threatened? What's the status there?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 12:04
For the most part, they are endangered. You know, in some areas, particularly in southern Africa, there are larger groups of elephants such that there, it's more of a space issue.
Nick VinZant 12:21
Are we actively doing something about that? Do we need to do more? Are people kind of just like this is what to do
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 12:28
We need to do more, you know, he especially protecting migration routes. There are areas in southern Africa that if we make the right decisions now, we could keep these large groups, transnational groups intact between Mozambique, Zambia, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, there's these five countries that have formed a national park with a plan to keep these corridors and space for elephants. And we need to make sure that that actually gets implemented because it's one thing to have a paper park but to actually make it work takes a lot of effort and a lot of coordination. And fortunately, in the country of Namibia, they have shown that people can benefit from having wildlife in their area versus more cornfields.
Nick VinZant 13:25
Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 13:28
Sure.
Nick VinZant 13:29
Who has been your favorite elephant that you have studied?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 13:36
Well, I figure I'd be allowed to favorite elephants, one female and one male. That's true. The male that I like the most is Willie Nelson, named after the singer Willie Nelson because of his long, scraggly tail and kind of tattered ears. But it turns out that Willie Nelson is the diplomat. He hates the bullies and will have no qualms about telling them that look, we don't want you here. And we don't want you even drinking with us because you're such a jerk. And I love that he spends a lot of time on this. And he's such a net, just natural, nice, all around sweet guy. But he will not tolerate the bullies. And I just I just love it. And my favorite female is Big Mama. She has an enormous family which may end up not being a smart move for these females in the desert. But she is also the diplomat and in my favorites are the diplomats because there's a lot of politics that go on to really caring about justice, you know, social justice. She will share the waterhole where Other very aggressive matriarchs will not tolerate other families being anywhere near the waterhole, they will chase them without a question, but she will, okay, well, we can move over here. And she's just a really gentle giant, she doesn't get ruffled by anything. And that really has an impact on the rest of the family, the character of of a leader, and you think about human society to the character of Big Mama means that her whole family is kind of chill. And that's just that's pretty cool. I love that.
Nick VinZant 15:42
Have you learned by studying elephants? Have you learned more about elephants or more about people?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 15:47
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say both. I learned about myself, constantly reminded by elephants of turn taking behavior. For example, in a conversation, how many times do we overrun? Or do your friends over run the conversation? You think, Oh, my God, I can't get a word in edgewise? Well, when these females are leaving the waterhole, they will have discourse and sometimes heated discourse, but they let the other one finish their sentence first. And that is really cool. And there are some physical reasons for this, where if you one individual rumbles, and then the next one rumbles, and the next one rumbles, you're actually creating a much longer signal that will travel into the environment further, but also on a social practical level, it is letting the other person have their say, and, and that's really interesting. There's so many different subtle things that we can learn from elephants. And really, by looking in the mirror at another species, it's just a humbling reminder of our own humanity. And we can learn a lot about ourselves by really pausing and thinking about our behavior. You know, I watch elephants greet each other, I think, Oh, my gosh, we need to be that excited when we see each other. I mean, sometimes we are for a reunion, we haven't seen each other for a long time. But they do this all the time. And it's really important important hormonally it facilitate stronger bonds. Or sometimes even in your own household, you kind of forget, good morning, you know, don't even say good morning, don't look at each other in the eyes. But it's a really important ritual to greet each other. And, you know, I wrote this book recently, wild rituals, just because I was so inspired by watching all these different animals engage in ritual, and how important those rituals are to those animals and how they are to us. But we kind of forget their importance and just go, we don't need to be now because of the pandemic. We know how important seeing each other in person is and what we've lost by not being able to see each other not being able to smile at each other because we have to, you know, keep each other safe by wearing masks. There's all these things that that pandemic has reminded us of how important ritual is,
Nick VinZant 18:09
why do elephants make me cry?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 18:15
I, I would say, it's because they are incredibly emotional animals. And, you know, seeing a young male shaking his head at you and having their trunk all flailing about, they're so excited they wear their heart on their sleeve. And just seeing how emotionally similar we are, is, I mean, they'll make me tear up really, I mean, they make me cry often. There's so special. And so I think the other thing is when you know, I also get very emotional when I see excess facial expressions on great apes, because there's so similar to ours, it's just oh my gosh, we are cousins. And so when, you know, directly evolutionary cousins, but for elephants, they look so wildly different, but yet we have the same emotion. So it's just a reminder of how interconnected we are with other animals in nature. And and we're not so special. We are on par with these other species, not above them. And elephants are a good reminder of that.
Nick VinZant 19:35
What's the deal with the elephant graveyard? Is that a real thing? Or did I like see that in a movie
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 19:40
There are a number of different explanations for an elephant graveyard, but that kind of segues into grief and grieving. So some elephant graveyards have been explained by early mass hunting, for one that elephants would be all killed. You know, 100 elephants in one place in the early days when early, the great white hunter thought that no animals were infinite. But other explanations are that no elephants like to when they're feeling ill, an aging elephant, they don't want to leave water when they're sick. And so elephants in an area that might have an ephemeral or permanent water pool in the middle of the jungle that could have dried out over evolutionary time, elephants would go towards a water source to die. So that's another explanation of how you'd get so many skeletons in one place. But on the point of grieving, elephants are very similar to humans, in terms of feeling the loss of a loved one, needing to visit that loved one, after they pass, to the point of even wanting to bury that loved one and have a ceremony for the loved one. And, you know, I write about this in wild rituals in my grieving chapter, How touching it is when to see how elephants really feel that deep loss that we feel and the importance of expressing that loss, and also the cultural transmission element of elephants who have experienced a grieving ritual in the wild, coming into captivity, and expressing that grieving ritual where others that grew up in captivity, did not express that did not have ever experienced agreement ritual, and did not engage in the grieving rituals as the others do did. And I talked about this in the grieving chapter. How to elephants from Mozambique were imported into the US, and they had experienced a wild culture in their youth, and knew what a grieving ritual was engaged in that grieving ritual when the matriarch of that captive group passed away. So they have grief and grieving rituals just like we do. And they know the importance of engaging them.
Nick VinZant 22:23
slightly lighter question. Who wins elephant versus Rhino?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 22:28
Oh,that's a very good question. rhinos do not like to give way to elephants, they don't like to give way to anything, whatever's in their way, they walk in a straight line. And if something's in their way, you better get out. And so that has developed a real contention, whoever asked this question must know this, that there's a big contention between elephants and rhinos. And, in the end, an elephant, if it really wanted to, would probably win if it charged at the rhino, but really the elephants like whoa, okay, I'll go, I'll just step over here. You know, whereas the rhinos like, No, no, no, I'm not moving from my path. You're in my path. I'm moving forward. So I would say that in the end, the elephant is most likely to back down because that path is not as important to the elephant as it is to the right now.
Nick VinZant 23:36
It's not it's not worth it for the Rhino
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 23:41
Not worth it. You're having a bad day. I get it. I'm just gonna go over here.
Nick VinZant 23:45
rhinos do seem grumpy. They seem like a grumpy animal in general. Right?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 23:50
Well, the problem. The reason is, black rhinos are territorial and very territorial. And the males are very aggressive. And when they come across another one when they're drinking at the waterhole, they don't want to see that other male and they're very grumpy about it and very vocal up to it. So it makes sense. But for the white rhino, white rhinos are very gregarious, and they're not nearly as aggressive. But I mean, a rhino is very similar to puppy dog. It they are credibly. just adorable. They, they communicate with their long ears. And when they're when they supplicate they flatten them against their head and they kind of mu and they have all these supplicating kind of puppy like behaviors. rhinos are really under sold in there in terms of personality. They have a lot of personality and they're really amusing to watch.
Nick VinZant 24:59
Favorite fictional elephantFace favorite fictional elephant?
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:02
Oh, I have one that I'm writing. But published fictional elephant. I love that Babar.
Nick VinZant 25:18
Yeah,
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:19
it's the story is so tragic. I mean, you don't realize as a child, all the books that you read are so traumatic and, you know, I suppose they're they're trying to help you process grief vicariously to be able to experience it in a safe way. But so many terrible things happened to him. But I do love the story. And Dumbo I mean, how could you not love Dumbo,
Nick VinZant 25:47
Dumbo? There's no way an elephant could fly, though. Did you discover that in your research? It's
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 25:53
wonderful, that those big ears, it'd be great if they could
Nick VinZant 25:58
best name for an elephant like, oh, maybe you didn't like it wasn't your favorite elephant. But that was a really good name for an elephant.
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 26:07
Oh, well, I do have a favorite there. His name is Guk kulu. He's a huge elephant and very gentle. In fact, he's not a diplomat because he doesn't like politics at all. So he just sidesteps our main dominant ball. But his name came from the Zulu word for very large. And he's got these really wide splayed tests. And one of them's his right test who's a little bit higher than left. So you can see him from a kilometer or two away, you know, that guy kulu is coming. It's a beautiful sight.
Nick VinZant 26:45
So tell me about wild rituals.
Dr. Caitlin O'Connell 26:47
Wild rituals, is a book about animal rituals and our own rituals, and the importance of ritual in our lives that we often forget or just are too lazy to engage in. And I show 10 different very common rituals, you know, play greeting, group rituals, grieving rituals, and how these rituals are expressed in different animal societies and how similar and sometimes different for our own societies, but just how important ritual is in general. And, yeah, that came out in January, and we're developing a documentary series and it's it's really exciting.