Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen

We're diving into the latest research on COVID-19. Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen joins us to seperate fact from fiction. We talk masks, immunity, death rates and an uncertain future. Then, John Shull joins us as we countdown the Top 5 Minor Injuries.

Interview with Virologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless

Dr. Angela Rasmussen: Virologist

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to talk about viruses and the worst minor injuries.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 0:24 It can transmit efficiently between people in the right circumstances and it can also cause disease in some of those people. And it's very rare that you find a virus like this particular virus that can do both of those things very well. And so that's when it becomes really dangerous. I'm very worried that in the fall, as people start getting sick from cold and flu season normal, normal influenza like illness, we're going to see this get even worse. So the politicization and the the steering away from evidence driven public health policy. See has been tremendously damaging.

Nick VinZant 1:03 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. Our topic today is an important one. We all know the impact that COVID-19 has had. And it doesn't look like it's going anywhere in the near future. So we wanted to have a guest on that could really give us from a scientific perspective, what this virus really is, what it does, and what the future is going to look like. Because there's just so much either on purpose, or by accident, misinformation and misconceptions that are out there. And I think that she just does a fantastic job in this interview, of clearing that up and focusing on what's really important and what really what we really need to do to stop this This is biologist Dr. Angela Rasmussen from simply like a virus standpoint, what's different about COVID-19? Like why this virus Why now?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 2:11 So this virus is we know about this virus family. It's not that different from other coronaviruses. It's mostly most closely related and most similar to SARS coronavirus, classic that caused a major epidemic in 2003. But it is a different virus. So it's not a completely new virus in the sense that we already knew that Coronavirus existed. We already knew that beta Corona viruses which this is a subset of those Corona viruses can cause disease, including severe respiratory disease like COVID-19 in people. But this virus itself is a member of that family that we had never met before December of 2019.

Nick VinZant 2:56 Was it just any new virus is going to do something like this or put could Potentially, or was there something specific about how it operates that allowed it to have the impact that it has?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 3:06 Well, so there's a there's a couple things. And that's a more complicated question than it seems like on the surface. So in theory, any type of virus that infects animals could conceivably adapt to infect humans. The vast majority of them however, do not. Most viruses are adapted to replicate within the host that they normally circulate in. So it's important to understand when talking about viruses that viruses can't replicate on their own. They're obligate parasites, so they have to infect a host. And if a virus has been circulating in a specific type of hosts, so for example, as for this virus bats, it adapts to those that to those bats, and it becomes very efficient at infecting and replicating and transmitting to other bats. What can happen when he goes systems are disrupted. If this virus gets to encounter a new type of hosts that it can infect, then it has the potential to either insect and transmit efficiently between those hosts. It also has the potential to cause disease in those hosts. And it's very rare that you find a virus like this particular virus that can do both of those things very well. So this virus, and we don't really understand what led it to become adapted to transmitted efficiently between people. But it has the effect that it can it can transmit efficiently between people in the right circumstances and it can also cause disease and some of those people. And because it can transmit so efficiently and because it started spreading around the world before we were really able to recognize and contain it. That's why this virus has become a pandemic, when many other emerging viruses have not. But there are a lot of different emerging virus pieces that have come out that have become human pathogens. One example of this is Ebola virus which emerges periodically, and most recently emerged in a place that had never been before in West Africa, for example, MERS coronavirus, and SARS coronavirus classic. Were both new coronaviruses to us when they emerged in the Middle East firmers and in China for SARS coronavirus, classic So, it's not unheard of for these viruses to emerge and cause disease in the human population. It is it is much more unusual for one to be as transmissible as this viruses and also cause severe disease in such a large population. Can I'm dumb this down a little bit for me, it's kind of like an athlete with size and speed. I think that's it. That's it. That's a great way to put it and this is more like this is like the type of athlete who might play multiple positions for example. So there They're uniquely adapted to be effective on both sides of the ball. If you're thinking about like a football player, it has both that transmissibility feature, you can think of that I guess as speed. And it has the ability to cause disease, which you could think of, I guess the size,

Nick VinZant 6:16 in terms of how much we know about this virus right now. One, we know absolutely nothing like we don't even have a name, 10 we've got this thing completely figured out. Where do you think that we are right now?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 6:29 I'd say we're probably about four. We do have a name this virus is called SARS coronavirus. We do actually have its full genetic sequence that was the first pieces of data that actually came out in early January. So that's how we know that this virus is so closely related to SARS coronavirus, classic which is why it is called SARS coronavirus. Two. We know what it uses as a receptor which is essentially like a lock that it unlocked to get into the cells that it's infecting. That's a key thing that viruses have to do, we know that it uses a molecule called Ace two, which is the same as ours classic to get into cells and replicate. We know about a few of the things that it does once it gets inside those cells, both to facilitate its own replication and to mute immune responses that the host will raise against it. And we're starting to learn a few things about the types of immune responses long term that it generates. But other than that, there's still many, many questions about this virus and how it works. And people are probably going to be studying it for years to come after this pandemic is over.

Nick VinZant 7:40 Is that number of like a four on the scale of knowledge, is that unusual for this amount of time that has passed or is that about par for the course?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 7:49 No, that's actually really good for the amount of time that's passed. So even though it feels like during pandemic time that that, you know, this, these months have just dragged by For some people, you know, being stuck at home and our lives have changed so drastically It feels like a long time that this virus has been with us. But actually, the data is coming out faster than any any emerging virus outbreak I've been involved with before. I should I should add that when I mentioned the genetic sequence for this virus was released on January 10, you know, really only less than two weeks after the whole world started hearing that there was this new virus circulating in China. By contrast, the first genetic sequence from the 2014 to 2016 Ebola virus outbreak in West Africa, took six months to be published. So we are really learning about this virus at an unprecedented pace. If we did not have the technology and the sort of connectedness that we have globally now, we'd probably be a lot further behind where we are now in terms of what we actually know about this virus.

Nick VinZant 8:59 If we can kind of address some misconceptions or popular things that are out there really quick masks? Yes, no.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 9:08 Yes. Masks are definitely important. We don't have a lot of good evidence about how well they work in terms of being able to assign numbers to it. But it's starting to become increasingly clear that they do. And just, you know, out of precautionary, cautionary principle, I think people should be wearing masks in public at any time, just because there is enough evidence that does suggest they can reduce risk by some amount of exposure. So masks are definite. Yes, for me, I think that everybody should be wearing masks. Everybody should be getting comfortable with them. Unless of course, you have some medical condition that counter indicates them, but very few people actually do. Most people can wear a mask safely. And so I encourage everybody to get comfortable wearing a mask because I feel like we're probably going to doing it for for many months to come.

Nick VinZant 10:02 herd immunity is that a possibility?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 10:05 herd immunity is definitely a possibility with a vaccine. I don't think that herd immunity is feasible with natural herd immunity, which first of all isn't really a thing that that people have ever really thought about. herd immunity is a term that was developed to describe what happens when a sufficient amount of the population is vaccinated against a virus. So yes, herd immunity is definitely possible with vaccination. Once we have some safe and effective vaccines that are available, herd immunity is probably not possible by having the entire the entire population get infected, or you know, for anywhere from 50 to 80% of the population get infected. for a couple reasons. We don't really know how good long term protective immunity is from a natural infection and there are some indications that it may wane After a certain period of time, we just really don't know enough about it. But second is really an ethics issue. If it's 60% of the population, say, of the US, or let's just even say 50% of the population, the US population is about 350 plus million. So half of that is what 170 5 million people, if this only has a 1% case fatality rate, which it looks like it's hovering somewhere around there. No, those are still millions of deaths that we would see just in the US alone if that many people were to get infected with this virus. We also don't know about the long term consequences of being infected with this virus and recovering from it. There have been reports and some people who've recovered who are having persistent problems. They may have lung injuries or reduced lung capacity. They may have neurological issues. There are a lot of things we don't know about this virus. So herd immunity, definitely a possibility with a vaccine. I think it's coming Completely unsafe and possibly not, not really something we can achieve with natural infection,

Nick VinZant 12:07 you know, for kind of just the average person, like, what should I really be paying attention to? Because there's so much noise around everything. And what you hear one day isn't what you hear the next day. What should I really be like? Okay, you should look at this, and you should pay attention to this.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 12:23 Yeah. So this is one thing that has been incredibly difficult to communicate with the public about, and that is that science scientists have been dealing with this pandemic from day one, knowing the same amount that the general public knows about this virus, which is not much. And so a lot of the the recommendations have changed over time as we've gotten new evidence to support them. masser Great example, actually, at the beginning of this pandemic, there was not a lot of evidence about how mass usage could help reduce transmission at population level. And as I mentioned, there's still not a ton of evidence that there is some that masks can help. So the mask guidance has changed for that reason to go from maybe you can wear a mask if you want to. Definitely you should be wearing a mask in public. Even if it's not an N 95 particulate respirator. That's one great example. I think what people should be paying attention to, is really the the long term eyes on the prize kind of perspective. We need to have a vaccine as soon as possible because that is the thing that is going to end all of the stayhome recommendations that we've been dealing with. And I know it's very difficult because it's summertime. Nobody wants to be stuck at home for months at a time, and many people can because of the economy. But the guidance really hasn't changed as far as that goes since March or April and that is that by staying home by minimizing exposure risk. You can keep yourself and your family safe until a vaccine is available. So pay it's To the vaccine studies that will give people an idea I think of when we might have a vaccine and just yesterday, you know, some encouraging phase one clinical trial data came out about the moderna vaccine that suggests that, you know, it's safe and it and it can advance to the next stage of clinical trials, which is great news. So I'd encourage people to not get so hung up on, you know, changing guidance. The things that they can do individually to protect themselves are the same. So avoid crowds. Don't go out except for essential errands. Physical distancing, wear a mask in public practice good hand hygiene, and just really encourage your neighbors to also do so we've seen what happens when states reopen too quickly. That's what's going on right now in these hotspots. states like Texas and Arizona and Florida. We want to avoid that. So people should just as much as possible. Take as many measures as they can to reduce their own risk and the risk to their families going forward until we do have a vaccine.

Nick VinZant 15:07 Do you think that the worst is behind us? We're in it or is it ahead of us?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 15:12 I think it might be ahead of us. And that's really unfortunate but in the US anyways, our our national leadership has really failed to communicate this and and frankly, the politicization of this pandemic has really undermined trust between the public and the public health officials who are making these evidence based recommendations to people. If, if people are already not inclined to believe the experts and not just biologists like myself, but also epidemiologists, physicians, public health, policymakers, etc. It's going to be very difficult to stop to flatten the curve again. People have already shown that they don't have much of an appetite for more lockdowns and even in these states. Were cases, hospitalizations and now, deaths are beginning to surge. People are still very skeptical of the need to take these precautions. So I don't see us making a concerted effort the way that we all did in March and April, to stay home and flatten the curve, enough to get these outbreaks that are going on under control. And we're coming up on flu season. In the fall when influenza also began circulating. Hopefully people will get their flu shots, but we may run into a situation where people are at risk of getting either influenza or COVID. And that is a pretty frightening prospect because the really damaging stuff that's happening in these hotspot states isn't necessarily just that all these people are getting COVID is at the hospital systems do not have the capacity to care for all of them. And so that's when it becomes really dangerous. I'm very worried that in the fall as people We'll start getting sick from cold and flu season normal, normal influenza like illness, we're going to see this get even worse.

Nick VinZant 17:09 When this kind of all started when it really got the public's attention. We talked to a pandemic historian. And one of the things that he said was whenever you're talking about any kind of pandemics, any kind of a public health issue, eventually society makes the decision, how many deaths they're willing to accept? Do you think that that's ultimately what we're going to decide in this case?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 17:33 Well, that's an interesting perspective. Because at the beginning of this pandemic, when the University College London model came out, our sorry the Imperial College model came out which suggested that without any of these precautions in the US, we could have as many as 2.2 million deaths. Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet. But, you know, we're at a much lower level than that. And we decided that point that that was an absolutely unacceptable number of deaths. It seems that at least in terms of federal political leadership, that has sort of changed maybe and, and it appears they might now be willing to accept more deaths than the hundred and 30,000 plus deaths that we've had in the US. So I think that is unfortunately a correct observation. And I'm just can, you know, I'm very concerned and disappointed with our current leadership that that that number is something that keeps getting bigger and it seems that it's becoming more and more acceptable for more people to die.

Nick VinZant 18:38 It's definitely an interesting thing about humanity. How if you set the bar really high, and you say 2.2 million and suddenly mentally we become okay with like, 300,000 and then if you know and then inches up, we just kind of stopped paying attention.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 18:53 I hope that we don't stop paying attention. I think that and I've read that that is part of the the All strategy at this point for dealing with this is just basically the people are going to get used to others dying in their communities. And I just refuse to believe that we as a society are okay with that. Granted, there is evidence that certain, you know, certain groups of people, we've already seen how this has disproportionately affected black and brown people, that those numbers might be more acceptable for some people, people who are not racial minorities. I think that it's it's really difficult and ethically fraught. When you get into deciding who is okay, who am I okay with dying, and who am I not okay with dying? I think that it's, it's not acceptable to have any preventable deaths. And that's, that's the attitude that we need to have as a society. That's certainly my attitude. I really hoped that that people do not become so cynical and a nerd to this pandemic that they'd be I'm okay with, you know, 300,000 400,000 500,000 deaths,

Nick VinZant 20:05 if you were to look at it from a scientific standpoint, when we talk about how we responded to it as a country, what was the biggest mistake that we made?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 20:14 I think that the biggest mistake we've made, really is is allowing this virus to become politicized. I don't want to point to any one specific thing. From the beginning, though this virus has been politicized when we decided to issue a travel ban against China. But not all people from China. It was just foreign nationals coming from China, but anybody who's American could just come right in. That's not an effective way to do a travel ban if you're trying to prevent cases from being imported into the US. And that's a that's a good example, a virus doesn't care what passport you're carrying. A virus doesn't care which country you're in. You're a citizen of bye letting anybody in from places where there were was uncontrolled community transmission and not requiring them to undergo any kind of quarantine or monitoring. That's not an effective travel ban. And sure enough, we imported a lot of cases. We also imported a number of cases from Europe. And those are also circulating. We know now. The Coronavirus Task Force had those daily press conferences for a long time in which misinformation was being just basically spread outright of people were taking hydroxychloroquine because the president said that he liked the idea of the drug without any evidence that it actually works and it doesn't appear to work, at least not very well. People ingested bleach when the President was musing about whether or not disinfectant could somehow be used as a treatment for COVID-19. So we've seen all of these different situations in which political concerns have driven public health guidance. And that has been incredibly harmful. We're seeing it we're still seeing it now. And as of yesterday, the CDC is no longer tracking data on hospitalizations that's going to be tracked directly at the White House that's going to further muddy the water and our own understanding of communities that are at risk in the US. So the politicization and the the steering away from evidence driven public health policy has been tremendously damaging.

Nick VinZant 22:33 why doesn't it affect kids?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 22:36 That's an excellent question that we don't know the answer to. It does seem that there for many coronaviruses including SARS classic and MERS, there is an age dependency where older people are more likely to get severe disease but the bottom line is we don't really know the basis of that. We do know, however, that children are not immune. They're not reserved. They can be infected with this virus and in rare cases, they can get very sick. And in some cases they can die. So children aren't completely off the hook. But yes, it we don't really know what the basis is for their seemingly having less severe disease than older people.

Nick VinZant 23:20 I don't I'm not sure if this is a word, but in the broader viral logical is that a word? is a word it is a word, okay? In a broader biological sense, like when you study a virus, what are you what are you studying?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 23:35 So when you're a biologist like me, you can study a lot of different aspects of a virus. But the broader definition of a biologist is just somebody who studies viruses. Some people study entry, so they study how viruses get into cells. Some people study replication, which is the study of how those viruses copy their genomes which they need to do to make new viruses. Some people Study the immune response to those viruses. Some people studied broader host responses to the virus, which is what I study. So all these different aspects, some people are very, very mechanical about it. And they study the viruses almost as though they're little machines. And they're thinking about all the different the different parts of the virus, like a car, for example, like you can sort of take it out, take it apart and try to figure out how it works. And, as I mentioned before, all viruses need to have a host. So sometimes some of us study the interaction with that host, and how those different parts of the virus work with different kinds of hosts. So that's what I study and I study how really the virus and the host interact with each other,

Nick VinZant 24:46 Viruses in general, but are they trying to kill us or what are they trying to do?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 24:51 So viruses aren't trying to do anything because they are not sentient, so they don't have desires they don't have motivation. They are really machines more than anything, they're little biological machines that are evolutionarily driven to replicate themselves. And that is, you know, sort of every biological entities fundamental,fundamental motivating drive is really to propagate your species. So that's really what viruses have evolved to do is basically make more viruses and make them more efficiently. So no viruses aren't really trying to cause disease. And it's thought that over long evolutionary periods of time, when they are adapting really well to a certain host, that they that they do become what we call attenuated meaning they cause less disease, sometimes they cause no disease. And that's why one one of the reasons why we think that oftentimes bats, which carry Corona viruses in nature, don't get the Don't get very sick, although we still don't know much about that. But it's probably because those viruses are very well adapted to their hosts. So they can replicate efficiently in them. They can make lots of new viruses and transmit to new hosts, but they don't trigger the bad immune systems and they don't cause severe disease. So, oftentimes, we think that that's also why when a new virus comes into a new population, like for example, a bat coronavirus, getting into humans, it might cause more severe disease because the the virus is not adapted to the human host. And so it's triggering responses that themselves can be harmful. And and then you end up with COVID-19. But there's still this is still a very active area of research. And there's a lot of gaps in our knowledge there.

Nick VinZant 26:47 I hope this question makes sense, the way I'm about to phrase it, I feel like I'm gonna phrase it horribly. But when we get infected, like are we just getting one virus or do a bunch of the viruses have the same kind of accumulate and then they all attack us at once. Or how does that how does that work?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 27:04 Oh, that's a really great question. And in fact, it's one that's really at the basis of sort of some of the guidance that people need to take to reduce their exposure risk. So in theory, or actually in a plate of cells in the lab, you can take one infectious virus particle and establish an infection, but in reality, you need a lot more. And part of the reason for that is if you just think of this virus in the way that it's transmitted, you have to get it into your nose. And there are a lot of barriers that are in your nose. Your nose has a distinct physiological shape. It's not just as you know, a single tube. It's a complex network of nostrils and nasal passages and and then your airway. And there's nose hairs, there's mucus, there are all these barriers to a virus getting in and finding its receptor, getting into a cell Getting around the sort of innate alarm systems that are there to protect against viral infection and to finally establish an infection. So it probably tastes and this is really more of a question of probability. It probably takes a lot of infectious virus particles to get past all those barriers and establish an infection in which they can then start making more viruses. The problem is, we don't actually know what that number is that you really need to get past all those barriers, we would call that the minimum infectious dose. We don't know what that dose is, but it's almost certainly more than a single viral particle.

Nick VinZant 28:38 Do you have a few minutes for some listeners submitted questions?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 28:41 Sure.

Nick VinZant 28:42 What do you hate more Facebook or Twitter at the moment?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 28:46 Oh, Facebook, I don't even really go on to Facebook anymore. I find Twitter to be much more useful in terms of following experts and in terms of being able to avoid some of the more harmful misinformation and disinformation sources. Also, all of my racist relatives are on Facebook and they're not on Twitter. So I prefer Twitter.

Nick VinZant 29:10 You really can avoid the relatives a lot easier on Twitter, I feel like right?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 29:15 Yeah, absolutely.

Nick VinZant 29:17 With all of the sanitizing that's going on right now, are we risking creating more resistant antibiotic bacteria?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 29:27 No. So as long as you're sanitizing with household disinfectants and hand sanitizer, that's alcohol based. There's nothing in there that is an antibiotic, you're not going to be creating new antibiotic resistant bacteria. If you do if you are using hand sanitizer that's based on an antibiotic for example, triclosan. You shouldn't be using that because first of all, those are those are ineffective against viruses. But second of all, they can promote antibiotic resistance and the bacteria that are around us

Nick VinZant 30:00 Worst or wait, oh, sorry, best movie about a viral outbreak.

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 30:07 That's a hard one because there are most of them all have their problems. I guess contagions probably the the most scientifically accurate. outbreak certainly is not. I Am Legend certainly is not anything with zombies really is not. I would say probably contagions the most scientifically accurate but all of all of those virus outbreak movies have problems because that's not really the timescale how you know, in which pandemic spread as you can see, even for this virus, it's, it's taking place over months, the 1918 flu pandemic took place over years. So a lot of times that they're sort of accelerated, they also really oversimplify how the policymaking process works, and how organizations like the CDC work or the NIH, but yeah, probably contagion is the most scientifically accurate.

Nick VinZant 31:09 From a scientific standpoint. What what's the most interesting virus?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 31:13 Well, I'm partial to Ebola because I've studied it a lot. And Ebola was it's kind of a virologist cliche, but I read the hot zone when I was like in high school, and I thought it was really neat. And that's kind of how I got interested in viruses. So I guess Ebola is always going to be kind of my favorite. But I mean, all viruses are very interesting. They're all very different from each other, and even viruses within the same family like Corona viruses. They all are just a little bit different enough that individually they're fascinating to work on. So I certainly not to knock SARS coronavirus, too because, you know, trying to figure out the the mysteries of this virus as a scientist has been one of the more rewarding aspects of this pandemic. In a pandemic, were you The vast majority of the news is not good. And I'm pretty pessimistic in general about how it's going. But it has been very interesting to study this virus and kind of learn about it in real time.

Nick VinZant 32:11 Can you answer this one or not? This one just says, Are we this dumb?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 32:18 Yes. I'll just leave it at that. But evidence suggests Yes.

Nick VinZant 32:24 It's so bad, though. Like, you would think that we're but okay. Is it people or is it a person who is that dumb? And I don't mean that in any kind of political sense. But like, Is it just the nature of us as people that yes, any kind of herd thing? Is this dumb? Or are we personally this dumb?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 32:43 No, I think I think it's like a herd thing. It's like a population level stupidity. And I think it's just because you know that the discourse is gonna be dominated often by the lowest common denominator and unfortunately, The voices that are kind of spreading that lowest common denominator around are very loud. And they have some very enthusiastic supporters. And I think collectively as a society, you know, we haven't really learned, we haven't really learned our lesson ever. And that's why, you know, there's that old adage that, you know, history repeats itself about history repeats itself. I think that this, this happens over and over again. And our technology is much better, obviously, than a 1918. Our, you know, our circumstances as an as a global civilization I think are much different. But we are making some of the same mistakes. And some of that I think, is human nature and some of it is just the fact that we have not learned how to apply the lessons of the past to our reality today.

Nick VinZant 33:49 Oh, and on this one. Do you have any good news?

Dr. Angela Rasmussen 33:54 Yeah, I mean, the vaccine for moderna seems to induce potent antibody response. So that's good news. It's advancing and clinical trials. And the clinical trial for the Oxford vaccine, which I think is being manufactured by AstraZeneca are starting to wrap up and they might even be wrapped up by the end of the summer, meaning we'll have a vaccine probably sooner than later, which is excellent news. It's still not immediately good news. But it's it's very encouraging news at the very least.

Nick VinZant 34:26 I want to thank Dr. Rasmussen so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have a link to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and she is a fantastic resource on Twitter for unbiased, non political, scientific information about what is really happening with this virus and what you need to do. We've also included links to her in the RSS feed that's on this podcast.

Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted

It's time to get our lives together. Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted joins us. We talk organization tips, decluttering your home and why organizing your stuff, can improve your health and happiness. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things It's Impossible to Look Cool While Doing.

Interview with Professional Organizer Lisa Trigsted of Neat Freak McKinney

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Lisa Trigsted: Neat Freak McKinney

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, organization and the top five things, it's impossible to look cool while doing,

Lisa Trigsted 0:26 you have to completely empty the space in order to start from from scratch and why I do that and why most organizers do that is that you need to see every single thing that was in there you need to touch everything. You need to decide if it is something that you absolutely love. My goal is to help you set up systems, you know in your home that are going to be lasting and it's going to change the way you feel about your home and the way you use your home. Less is more. You know we live in a world here and estates where it's just consumption, consumption, consumption, and everybody just wants more and more and more, but that doesn't bring them happiness. So what it does is creates anxiety.

Nick VinZant 1:10 I want to thank you guys so much. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I recently saw this study and I don't mean that like, I'm smart. I accidentally came across it while looking at Game of Thrones memes. But I saw this study and it said that one of the keys to success however you define success is to have a strategy and to be organized. Our first guest is an expert at organization. She's a professional organizer that operates out of McKinney, Texas, which is right next to Dallas. She's the founder of neat freak McKinney This is Professional Organizer Lisa trick stead. So how did you get started being a professional organizer nizer

Lisa Trigsted 2:01 Well, that's a fun story. So my whole life I've been organ, an organized person, I'm the oldest of seven. And I grew up with a lot of responsibility given to me as the oldest. And I think naturally, I just was an organized person. So it all came naturally to me. And then fast forward to my adult years. After I had kids, I was helping friends organize their homes, they would come to my house and they would open my refrigerator and be like, What in the world? And so, to me, that was just a natural thing to do. So my daughter went off to college in 2006. And I just felt heartbroken. My little nest was flying away and, and life as I knew it was, was changing. At that time, I was a teacher, and I just really didn't have a heart to be teaching full time anymore. And my friends encouraged me to start an organization or an organization business. And my I'm so busy, I can't even keep up with my own schedule, and I no longer teach. This is just my full time business. And I absolutely love it.

Nick VinZant 3:17 When you first started out, did people have any idea what this was? Or did you kind of have to convince people? Or was this something that people were looking for and they didn't know it existed?

Lisa Trigsted 3:28 Well, it wasn't really like I looked it up and there, there were a couple of professional organizers in Dallas, but it was more It was like let me help you move and get unpacked, but the idea of a professional organizer was very kind of unknown. But my friends were just so encouraging because they saw the results that I you know, what I could do for them and, and my in my own home, that we just kind of, they just kind of just said, let's just try it. And so I did and I called myself just meat freak back then. And but yeah, between 2006 and 2017, things changed dramatically.

Nick VinZant 4:09 Now, do you like to be organized? Or do you feel a need to be organized like is it just essentially who you are?

Lisa Trigsted 4:17 It's both I it's just in, in in inside of me is just the way my brain works. It's the way that I function better when my home is organized, when my thoughts are organized when my kitchen and pantry. I just feel like that is just ingrained in me. It's just who I am.

Nick VinZant 4:38 So when you go into a client's house, or a location or wherever, and you start organizing, like, where do you start? What's the first thing that you're going to do?

Lisa Trigsted 4:48 So before I actually go into the home, I have a phone call or an in person consultation. Now with COVID I do a lot of FaceTime consultations and we talk about exactly What space that they want to start in? And I can I kind of get an idea of how they're feeling about the space, their anxiety level, what they want to achieve. And so by the time I actually get to their home, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to be working on. And so when, when when I come into their home and let's just take a pantry, for instance, and we go to the pantry and I ask them, the general questions, what do you love about it, what's not working? How do you envision it? And then, after they answer all those questions, we just get started. And then number one, the first thing I do is we remove every single thing, whether it's a pantry, a closet, a garage, we take every single thing out,

Nick VinZant 5:44 like out of the house entirely.

Lisa Trigsted 5:50 Chuck the whole house and start from scratch. That's pretty much it but it on the front yard and burn it. No. I take it out of the pantry, we put it on the island or the kitchen table and the counters and we sort through it. But But yes, you have to completely empty the space in order to start from from scratch. And why I do that and why most organizers do that is that you need to see every single thing that was in there, you need to touch everything. You need to decide if it is something that you absolutely love, if it's something that you absolutely want to keep, if it's something that you absolutely use. And if you can't answer those questions with a yes, then I come back and say, you know, we try to figure out why they're holding on to something that doesn't necessarily bring them joy and happiness. And so there's just a, it really is a system that I go through with every single space. It's just a formula and it works and it makes people at first when I tell them I'm going to take everything out their eyes like Like you said, big bug out there like what? And, but once they see it all out, they are amazed if I had a dime for every dollar every time somebody said, How can I how do I have five of this? I would be, I would be rich because people buy things because they don't see that they already have them. Or, you know, just like in a closet, when I group all your black shirts together, they're like, Oh, my word, I do not need to ever buy another black shirt again. So that's kind of why I do that.

Nick VinZant 7:30 If you were to put a percentage on it, let's say like, what percentage of the amount of stuff that somebody has? Do they actually need or use? Are we talking like half 10%? Like how much stuff does somebody actually usually end up keeping?

Lisa Trigsted 7:46 Well, it varies. So I was let's just take a woman's closet, so it's usually they were 20% of what they have or they love 20% of what they have. And in a pantry. Obviously that percentage is going to be higher. 7525 75 they keep 25 there, they find appliances another thing still has the price tag on it from their wedding gifts, you know, things like that. But it does vary from space to space. It depends on how personal you're getting, like, obviously in a closet. It's very personal, you, you know, we like to shop, but we don't always love how it looks when when it's honest. Or, you know, we fluctuate, wait, and then we, we love an item and then we end up hating it or my the my biggest thing is don't buy it just because it's on sale. You know, I used to be that way. Oh, it's a bargain. I'm gonna buy it. But then I didn't love it. It didn't. I didn't like the way it looked on me or didn't like the way it made me fail. And so all those questions go into each space, but it does vary from space to space.

Nick VinZant 8:49 So are you organizing people's stuff? Are you kind of organizing the people behind this stuff?

Lisa Trigsted 8:56 Yes, I'm actually touching and organizing. Their stuff, but at the same time, the teacher comes out in me and I automatically, you know, during the conversation of the time that I'm there in their home, we're talking and then they're kind of asking me questions, and they kind of see how I'm putting it back in and how I create zones in every single space. And so I'm also teaching them, because I don't feel like I would be fully doing my job. If I have to come back every three months to, quote, clean it up, you know, I'm not a cleaning lady. I'm an organizer. And my goal is to help you set up systems, you know, in your home that are gonna be lasting, and it's going to change the way you feel about your home and the way you use your home.

Nick VinZant 9:41 Did you have like an overall philosophy in terms of organization?

Lisa Trigsted 9:46 Yes, yes, less is more. You know, we live in a world here in the states where it's just consumption, consumption, and everybody just wants more and more and more, but that doesn't bring them happiness. What it does As creating anxiety because they have so much junk and crap that they don't use that they, it just overwhelms them and then they get frustrated. And then you know, their bank accounts or credit cards are charged up and nothing that they're buying is making them happy. So my philosophy is always, less is more if you I would rather have, you know, 10 shirts that I wear all the time than 100 pretty shirts that I never wear. And so that's the kind of the philosophy I try to teach my clients is. Don't bring it into your home unless something else goes out. So it's a one in one out rule. And if you live with less, it really does make you feel happier. It's it's proven. It's true. My clients come back and tell me after the fact Oh my word You are right. So that those are kind of my philosophy, philosophies, less is more, simplify your space. And we'll In one out rule,

Nick VinZant 11:02 worst house you ever walked into What did it look like?

Lisa Trigsted 11:05 Oh, well, I I don't kiss until I my clients trust me with their homes, but there's a show on TV.

Nick VinZant 11:19 It was a hoarder house basically.

Lisa Trigsted 11:20 Yeah,And so I mean, and it makes me feel sad and I'm laughing because I'm nervous but it really was a sad situation they'd had an illness in the family and life and you know, had just kind of turned upside down on them and it just was like it snowball like they they didn't want to live that way. It just kind of happened. And so it took them a long time to be able to ask somebody for help. And to me that was the biggest step especially for these families that I help in that type of situation is asking for help. And then them trust. See me and so those situations are very different, you know, I do a ton of Pinterest, you know, the Pinterest pantry where everything looks beautiful. But those situations and with those families, it's a lot deeper and the emotions are deeper and it takes a lot longer and I have to just, you know, go slow and we do a lot of talking, and we do a lot of assessing, and there's a lot of emotions involved, usually a lot of tears. And but, you know, I feel very equipped to help those people. I feel like it's a natural gift for me. And so I can, you know, slow down the process because I'm normally just like a go getter, but in most situations, I just really slow down. But I mean, there's a reason that those houses get that way. But I have a great success story with a client in that same situation. So I was there like six days in a row. Their kids had gone off to camp. So it was just mom and dad at home. And then the kids came home the last two days that I was, I was there. And we ended up having a family meeting and they asked me to conduct a family meeting. And I ran into that same family, believe it or not at The Container Store Two years later, and they saw me across the store, and they were like Lisa, Lisa, come here, and they were so excited to see me. And they showed me because I had given them homework to do after I left because I got everything kind of set up. But there were still some other things that they had to deal with. They had finished all their homework, they had showed me pictures. They were so excited. And that, you know, here two years later, their lives were changed and they were able to maintain it and just the happiness on their face was just so rewarding.

Nick VinZant 13:49 I mean, there's obviously a huge difference between somebody whose house is like, Oh, you've got too much stuff. And somebody who Oh, you have you have a serious like there's a problem here and we need to get you out. hardest room to organize, easiest room to organize.

Lisa Trigsted 14:06 Okay, that's a good question. Again, it depends on the client. I would say probably the hardest room, I'm gonna say. And this is just weird to say but I'm going to say it's a guest room because what happens with most people's guest rooms is they put all the stuff that they don't want to deal with into the guest room is like a huge room that doesn't get used very often. The closets you're usually stuffed with memorabilia, things that grandma you have given them passed down from, you know, generations and things that they don't really want that they they can't get rid of. So it always gets into the junk room or the storage room. And so those take a little bit longer because we have to sift through so many things that have memories attached to them. garages can be one of those places as well. That You know, Oh, we don't want to deal with it. Now we're just going to shove it in the garage. And so when I do a garage, there's usually a lot of that to where again, I'm taking everything out and I make a pile of things that I'm like okay, this really doesn't belong in the garage. Let's talk about why it's in the garage or this really doesn't belong in your guest room. Let's talk about why it ended up in your guest room and the answer is always the same. Well, my mom gave it to me and when she comes to visit, I have to put it out or, you know, my somebody in my family passed away and it was theirs and it makes me feel guilty to get rid of it in and I always asked the same question well, if if you love to this person and they gave you something they would want you, they wouldn't want you to love and enjoy it. And if they're no longer here, they're not going to know that that you're getting rid of it and especially if you're not using it so those are kind of I would say the harder situations and some master closets get that way as well. The easiest room for me and my favorite is a pantry I love pantries I love to make them look pretty. I love to treat them as an extension of the kitchen as another room I like to decorate in there. And so give me a pantry. I could do it in my sleep.

Nick VinZant 16:13 What is the most important room to have organized like if you're gonna, you're only gonna do what you can only pick one room, you got to have this one and then everything else is secondary to having that room organized.

Lisa Trigsted 16:26 So for me, and again, this varies but for me, it's the kitchen The kitchen is has always been the heart of my home. It's where you start your mornings, it's where you and your your days and family meals around the table. You know, little kids are making their lunches you're spending your Saturday mornings or having coffee with friends and family whatever it is you're going to pick one room to get completely organized. I would say start in your kitchen and pantry and then it will just trickle down from there. You're going to love it so much that you're going to want to have organization every single room in your home.

Nick VinZant 17:05 Best way to organize by color alphabetically or by size.

Lisa Trigsted 17:11 Well, that depends. So if we're talking spices I prefer to out an organized alphabetically. If we're talking books, you know, my husband, I will defer. He has a ton of books and he likes to organize them like the library does, but I prefer to organize them in color in the rainbow. I think they look prettier, and I just think they're aesthetically pleasing that way. If it's a closet, definitely I organized by color and by style. What were the other? What was the other topic you said are the other choice

Nick VinZant 17:45 color alphabetically or size?

Lisa Trigsted 17:48 Okay, so, yeah, I say color and alphabetical are the biggest ones for me.

Nick VinZant 17:55 We'll put a link to your Instagram page on the RSS feed for this podcast. I saw One of your Instagram posts that has the books organized by color. At first, I was like, Oh, that's too much. And then I looked at it again, I was like, Oh, that looks pretty good.

Lisa Trigsted 18:12 It really does. Like I said, it used to be a teacher. And in my classroom, I would have them color coded. And the kids kept it that way. They thought it was really fun. There's white books, and you know, and then here's where the white book goes. But like, you know, my husband's, you know, a student, and he uses all of his books for research. And so for him, he has to have them, you know, done by like the library, and he uses this really cool app called library thing. And so if i and it's very, it's, I love it. It's a great organizational tool. So if I ask them, Hey, honey, where's that? Where's this book? He can look on his app and say, Okay, go up at my office. It's the third shelf down second, second bookcase over like right in the middle like he can tell me exactly where all of his books go. So it like I always tell my clients. It has To work for you not necessarily me. So even in my own home it's done two ways but but but it works and that's the key is what works best for you.

Nick VinZant 19:10 Best organizing container Tupperware or something else.

Lisa Trigsted 19:16 Oh not tupperwareI love the Oxo brand, the pop tops. But if you're gonna pick one container to, to organize, it's going to be a lazy Susan and they make so many amazing lazy Susans right now they have them with dividers in them. So you can, you know, stack things up. But I have lazy Susans and every single room in my house and I use them in every single client's home. Whether it's a shelf up high in your garage that has chemicals out of the reach for kids, you can twirl that Lazy Susan and get the chemicals down without having to go get a ladder. Nothing gets lost in the back because it stays contained. And that little rounder. I use it for everything and that's, that's my number one if you're gonna pick an organizer, pick a lazy Susan.

Nick VinZant 20:08 Let's keep let's get controversial. Who is? Who's more disorganized men or women?

Lisa Trigsted 20:16 Oh, well, I'm gonna have to say women. I mean, most of my clients are women. And they're the ones that hire me. And when I go into the spaces, I mean, I do organize for a man and I do organize masterclasses. I have both, but I'm gonna have to say women sorry, girls,

Nick VinZant 20:39 is that on an average orders? They're just some that are, like so disorganized that they kind of skew the average,

Lisa Trigsted 20:47 probably that they probably. I don't know. It's hard to tell. I mean, like, it's hard for me because, I mean, 98% of the people who hire me are women, and so they're the ones I'm going into their homes and organizing. So that's why I feel like it's women. I mean, in my house, it's not me, I'll say that.

Nick VinZant 21:09 Well, I mean, they tend to have more stuff, right? Like I do feel as speaking for the male population. Like we just have less stuff. So it's easier for us.

Lisa Trigsted 21:17 This is true. So yes, in a master bathroom, I will spend the majority of the time organizing her makeup and then I go to his, you know, sink and there's three items. And so yes, I would say on average, really, and truly, I really believe it's women. They're more more disorganized.

Nick VinZant 21:35 How often do you get a phone call after you've done with a client saying they can't find something?

Lisa Trigsted 21:44 Well, a couple I've had but they were friends of mine and they were teasing me I went organized one of my friends pantry when I very first started and her husband called me and said he couldn't find his underwear. And I said, Well, it definitely is not in the pantry. But if I always tell my clients when I'm done, I'll say if you can't find something, text to me, it's hard to have a couple of those, or a couple of where did we put that again? And I'll answer but yeah, but for the most part, I do a walkthrough after with the client, and so they kind of pretty much now and I also label everything. So usually if they can't find it, they see the label. They're like, Ah, that's where it is.

Nick VinZant 22:26 One thing in someone's house will make a professor professional organizers eye twitch,

Lisa Trigsted 22:33 when they try to buy their own bins or baskets or containers. I've come I've had people hire me and they're like, Oh, I already have all the bins and baskets that you'll need. And I get there and I'm like, oh, why did you do this? And so, because number one, they don't always fit, they don't match. I like everything to be aesthetically pleasing. So I don't like mismatched bins, I don't like mismatched hangers. So I always tell my clients, especially if they tell me that I will say, Well, I'm going to bring some stuff as well. And if you don't, if I don't use what you have, hopefully they can return it or use it somewhere else. But you know, if my name is on the line, I try to you know, I try to bring my prop I always bring the products that I know will work best but though, when I talk to all my organizer friends, I think that's what they always just like, oh my even word How? Yeah, they don't like it when you go out and try to buy your own product.

Nick VinZant 23:36 In real life. What are you most disorganized about?

Lisa Trigsted 23:40 Oh, okay, that's a good one. So for me, it's my digital pictures. I take a ton of pictures, I love pictures and I I have them somewhat organized. But it's like, you know, the cobblers kids never had any shoes. For me. It's like that when I come home. The last thing I want to do is organize the pictures on my computer. But over the quarantine, I did get all of my hard copy pictures organized, which was a huge thing on my to do list that I just never had time to do. So I'm getting there slowly but yes, my my, my photos on my computer definitely need help.

Nick VinZant 24:20 Last question for me. Do you think that people your clients can really change? Like, can you become an organized person? Or are you going to see these clients again, whether it's three months or a year later?

Lisa Trigsted 24:32 100% people can change. I say if there's a well if they really want it, and they are and they're asking for help. I mean, the chances are that they're they're sick and tired of the way they're living. And so they want to change. And my sister in law, I mean, by her own admission, was not an organized person didn't grow up, organized. You know, for a long time in her marriage. She wasn't organized and she didn't even know what she was. Clean and everything was cute and clean, but it wasn't organized. And then she read the Marie Kondo book, The life changing Magic of Tidying Up. And that book changed her life. And so she now i mean is beyond organized and she taught herself. So definitely, you can change and my clients, you know, I'm so proud of them. I you know, I do a lot of repeat jobs, like I have a client that I'll come and start in their kitchen and pantry and then they're like, Okay, next I want you to come and do this room and then I do this room and pretty soon I've done their whole house. So every time I go back to a repeat client, I always go peek. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go peek in your pantry. And I mean, I would say 90% of the time. It's, it's not like I would have it is that pristinely perfect. But it's still the systems are still completely set up. And the systems are working. So for me that shows that number one, I've done my job. properly number two they are a really are working the systems that I have in place and three they really desired to change. So yes, definitely people can, can learn to be and stay organized.

Nick VinZant 26:15 Have you ever gone too far though? Like, you'd be like, Okay, this is I've organized this too much, right like the books in color, but they're also alphabetical by the author's birth country or something like I've gone too far here. Have you ever done that?

Lisa Trigsted 26:32 My husband will say yes, of course. I'm gonna say no, I mean, nothing is ever too organized. But I'm sure if you interviewed my husband, he would just be laughing at that question. So I'm gonna say no, I mean, nothing can ever be too organized but I do get a lot of eye rolls. When I show my own space and if I show the before and after, I will get a ton of direct messages that people saying oh my even word like really your before it. Like my perfect after so. But yeah, I get a lot of eyeballs on that when I show my own home, but to me Nothing can be overly organized.

Nick VinZant 27:13 Or they secretly jealous eye rolls though I feel like they're secretly jealous.

Lisa Trigsted 27:18 I think so. I think so. I'm just gonna say that yes, I think they're secretly jealous. Nick VinZant 27:25 That's really all the questions I have what's coming up next for you? How can people get ahold of you?

Lisa Trigsted 27:30 Well, I have been doing a ton of virtual sessions during the quarantine and I, like I said, I live in, in a suburb of Dallas, Texas. So Texas is kind of opened up a little bit more than the rest of the country. And so during the quarantine, my virtual sessions went crazy. And I even had sessions in the UK. It was amazing to meet people all over the United States and in Canada and the UK. And so I'm still doing those and now that I'm back into people's homes, I still I'm saving one day a week to do virtual sessions but you can find me at meet freak McKinney calm on Instagram at neat freak macanthony on Facebook and Pinterest at Nate freak McKinney.

Nick VinZant 28:13 I want to thank Lisa so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included information about how to contact her on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. If you check out your her Instagram, there's like organization that most people think is organized. And then there's her level of organization, which is a whole nother level. It's one of those things where you're like, wow, is that alright, that's, that's pretty impressive, honestly.

Finance and Stock Market Expert Danielle DiMartino Booth

What's next for the economy? With record job losses, unprecedented stock market swings and mounting debt, it's a question we're all wondering. Financial Expert Danielle DiMartino Booth joins us to answer it. In a wide-ranging interview, we talk stocks, the housing market, economic recovery and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Wastes of Money.

Interview with Danielle DiMartino Booth of Quill Intelligence

Speakers:

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Danielle DiMartino Booth: Finance and Stock Market Expert

Nick VinZant 0:13 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, it's all about money, both how to save it. And the top five ways we wasted.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 0:25 Unlike going into the last major downturn in the United States, which was precipitated by households having way too much debt in the way of subprime mortgages. This one was precipitated by corporations and firms in the United States having way, way, way too much leverage. And that left the economy very vulnerable to a shock. You've had companies that that you would say, Wow, I can't believe they're still in business, be able to access the financing that they need. So we call them zombie companies and we now know that one in five American big American company is now a zombie company basically kept alive by very unfair, unbalanced policy that's been unleashed by the Federal Reserve, what we call the silver tsunami. So there's going to be a disconnect, if you will, between the homes that boomers want to sell, and the homes that millennials want to buy.

Nick VinZant 1:20 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So this episode is first coming out in the beginning of July. And I think it's safe to say that this is an unprecedented and uncertain time, especially when we look at the economy and what's ahead. Our first guest is an expert in finance, the stock market and the Federal Reserve. She's worked on Wall Street has been an advisor to the Federal Reserve and is the CEO of quill intelligence, where she has been named one of the top voices on economic trends three years in a row. And I think that she has this fascinating insight into what's happening now. What's going to happen and what we can do about it when it comes to the economy. This is Danielle DiMartino. Booth. So essentially, when you look at the economy and finance right now, where are we? Where do you think that we're headed?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 2:24 Well, I think right now, the US economy is in its deepest recession since since the Great Depression. So I think that we're in kind of uncharted territory, if you will, at least for most living Americans. Unlike going into the last major downturn in the United States, which was precipitated by households having way too much debt in the way of subprime mortgages. This one was precipitated by corporations and firms in the United States having way way too much leverage. And that left the economy very vulnerable to a shock, which is why we're seeing a downturn of this magnitude following the Coronavirus outbreak,

Nick VinZant 3:04 Is there any chance we are just gonna bounce right back when this is over, or what do you thing in going to happen?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 3:12 Well, unfortunately, we're seeing that the economy was again in such a fragile place prior to this happening, that we've had the highest number of outright bankruptcies since 2009. And a lot of these companies obviously will go away and never hire again. We had a jobs report recently, that on its surface looked good with a falling unemployment rate, but unfortunately, we've we've had 2.8 million permanent layoffs in the United States to put that in some context, in the recession of 2001. That's about as high as we ever got with permanent job losses, and it puts it on par with sep tember 2008 at that point had into the financial crisis. We were also at this same kind of very high level of permanent job losses indicating that it's going to be a lot more than just the reopening impulse to put the economy back where it was, in fact, that could take years possibly,

Nick VinZant 4:16 For me, somebody who really doesn't know much about anything financial, like what should I be paying attention to the jobs report, the stock market, like, what what should I really be watching?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 4:31 I think the most important single factor that you want to pay attention to at this point is the jobs market. Because the US economy, at its most fundamental level is 75%. consumption. So we are what we spend as a country. That's the simple fact. So if people don't have jobs, or if a third of the companies that have not had to push through layoff but have cut incomes have cut, pay If that's the case, and people are less capable of spending what they did last year, and or they don't have a job at all. So again, we are what we spend as a country, follow the jobs market the most closely,

Nick VinZant 5:13 however bad that this is going to be. Is it going to be a quick kind of bad like we're going to know immediately or is it going to be a slow progress like, oh, wow, we're really not going to hit the bottom four months.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 5:24 Unfortunately, what we're seeing play out right now is that we're having a strong bounce back as there are rolling read openings going throughout the country, but at the same time, because there wasn't a coordinated national response to Coronavirus. We've got a massive wave in the Sunbelt of virus counts increasing. And we're seeing one city and state after another pull back on their reopening. So what we look like we're seeing in terms of an economic recovery is that we've got this sharp bounce back, headed into the second half and retrenching, so we're going to have something called a W shaped recovery where we slide back down. And to your point that is going to make recovery be much more protractedthan it would otherwise be.

Nick VinZant 6:14 Is it going to be a situation where the haves it's not going to be that bad and the have nots, it's going to be really bad? Is that going to be the case?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 6:22 Well, I think a lot of that, sadly, is going to depend on the next stimulus package that comes out of an increasingly divided Congress. At the end of July, there is a supplementaries $600 per week and unemployment insurance that is set to expire. A lot of rental moratoriums are expiring as well. And in some cases forbearances on mortgages also will start becoming due such that you will indeed have people of means people of wealth be fairly untouched by what's to come. But you will you will increasingly see those With less, it looked for alternatives so that they aren't kind of emergency financial emergencies in their life. Just to give you one example, we've seen a spike in the number of multiple, multiple parts of family bumping up together. So we, we've been joking about the millennials in the basement for a generation now. But this is an actual spike in the number of people who are either parents moving in with their children or children moving in with their parents.

Nick VinZant 7:29 Is there anything that I know obviously, hindsight is 2020. But is there anything that we as a society are from a policy standpoint, they could have done they could have avoided all of this?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 7:40 Well, now That's it? That's a very deep question. And the answer is that yes, there is something that we could have done many decades ago, when, with the advent of the credit card, and what what that taught Americans and what became ingrained in their way of consuming and behaving, as well as companies, as well as the federal government, then this is fostered by years of the Federal Reserve holding, borrowing costs at artificially low levels, which really does facilitate a lot more borrowing than then you could do otherwise. It's if it's cheap to borrow, then you can borrow more, right? Pretty simple. But it's it's become an ingrained part of our culture. And that left a lot of us families, as well as US companies. Hit by this, this outside shock of the virus, and completely unprepared because saving has become this extinct part of the American culture. And, you know, you might remember your grandparents or your parents saying, boy, you you've always got to save for a rainy day, but for so many Americans that was an abstract in theory notion, and what we saw coming into this was that how Hold with made $100,000 in 2019, that's 38% of these households to take one example had not a penny of savings set aside. So I think that this will leave a scar of sorts, it's certainly going to feel like a scar for Americans who become accustomed to getting the latest iPhone when it comes out and always upgrading their car every few years when it comes off of lease and always having the nicest newest things. I think that I think that there will be a lasting permanence, if you will, and how we view spending money going forward, because so many found themselves unprepared.

Nick VinZant 9:37 One of the things that struck me like I kind of, you know, I knew a lot of people that lived paycheck to paycheck, and that seemed to be a pretty consistent thing. But I was really surprised to hear how many companies were essentially doing the same thing.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 9:50 That's exactly right. You are seeing where even small and medium sized companies in the United States a didn't have a cache cushion, or B had too much debt taken out and found themselves, you know sideswiped by this by this tragedy that has seen a loss of small businesses that that concerns me will take many, many years, if ever to recover a recent recent survey by Yelp, you know, Yelp, you can always see Yelp online for this in that review. But a recent survey by Yelp found that a third of retailers, including small retailers, and over 50% 53% of restaurants say that they're going to be closed permanently. After this. These are massive numbers to recover from which goes back to one of your first questions. Whether or not this is going to be a matter of bouncing back in a matter of months or years.

Nick VinZant 10:45 I mean, are these solvent companies in the sense that like yeah, these are these are rock solid stuff. I'm thinking of like, Caterpillar things that you think of they're not going anywhere? Or is this kind of forgiving? For the phrase, like getting rid of companies that only had a couple of years left anyway,

Danielle DiMartino Booth 11:04 Well, unfortunately, what you raise is, there are going to be plenty of household names that are still household names, years from now. There were some small mom and pop companies that were just illiquid. And were not able to access the financing that they needed to bridge this crisis. But they were actually strong sturdy solvent, good balance sheet companies, but didn't get access to to liquidity because maybe they didn't qualify for the paycheck Protection Program. Maybe a lot of their boys were 1099 or they weren't able to use 75% of the proceeds for employment if they were only going to be open up, be able to open up their company in bits and pieces to in order to to adhere to health standards. So in that sense, we have lost some American companies that we shouldn't not have. But by the same token, because the Federal Reserve has opened up liquidity problems, excuse me liquidity programs to all kinds of junk rated companies, we also have a facilitated the living dead in the larger corporate sector with access to the capital markets access to the corporate bond market, you've had companies that you would say, Wow, I can't believe they're still in business, be able to access the financing that they need. So we call them zombie companies. And we now know that one in five American big American companies is now a zombie company basically kept alive by very unfair, unbalanced policy that's been unleashed by the Federal Reserve.

Nick VinZant 12:48 This may be a really naive question. This may be a good question. Why can't we just distribute money to everybody you know, the idea of universal basic income because it seems in some senses like You have to have a job so you can have money so that you can spend so you can prop up companies that hire people to have jobs. Like what? Why can't we just give people money?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 13:09 Well, we have, we have just given people money. We've been giving people money, since the cares Act was passed. And if you consider an extra $600 a week in unemployment insurance, when some people were only collecting 250 or $300 a week, there are a lot of people right now who are making more money collecting unemployment than they were making prior to being furloughed or laid off from their position. The question I think you're asking is whether or not we can we can sustain this type of policy indefinitely. And I push back on that because I'm of the belief that if we run up national debts to kingdom come, then eventually we will have people who buy our treasuries at auction when when when Uncle Sam is the one doing the borrowing that there will pushback among creditors to United States who say, wait a minute, you've got the checkbook wide open, you're just gonna run the debts up, because you have the dollar and the dollar is dominant throughout the world as as the means by which transactions take place. We all know that it's King dollar. But you've taken advantage of that status by running up your debts as much as you have. And then we're going to see pushback. And you see interest rates start to rise, and it's game over.

Nick VinZant 14:31 Oh, I see. Let me ask one follow up question that said, it's like somebody could essentially swoop in and buy the debt, and then they could eventually come calling is that kind of how it would work?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 14:41 Or they could eventually say good luck, we're not going to loan to you anymore. Picture. Picture the person in the year 2005, who was going to their banker to get the sixth or the seventh mortgage, because they'd become a professional home flipper. And the banker at some point says, Wait a minute, I'm not going to loan you any more. Because you've got way too much debt, you're not gonna be able to service that in the long run. So I'm gonna cut you off. So I'm going to quit borrowing. I'm going to quit and lending you more.

Nick VinZant 15:08 Switching gears a little bit. How did how did you get into this? What was it that drew you into this world?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 15:14 Well, I was I was fascinated with finance when I went to business school. I got out in 1996, and I started on Wall Street in New York. And it was, it was just a doggy dog. Pretty crazy, fun world back then, and investment banking. But at the same time, there was there was kind of this presence, if you will. This was when pets.com and anything calm for that matter, was able to get financing and do an IPO back in 1999 2000. And so you sense that there was something that didn't make sense that was fueling this mania fueling this bubble, kind of like these crazy Robin Hood or investors who we have today that are day trading their stimulus There's stimulus checks. And it wasn't until really I had left Wall Street and discovered what the Federal Reserve was and how big of an impact that it made on our day to day lives and actually joined the Fed for the better part of a decade throughout the crisis, that I came to a better understanding of just how little the average American starting with me knew about finance in the markets, even though I had worked in them. And that was kind of what got me off on this mission of trying to help educate the world on the importance of understanding economics understanding that the economy is not the stock market and vice versa and and the effect that debt has on your life on a small business life on a big company's life on on the US Federal Government's life on that of China and how how they interact. Maybe, maybe it's the beauty of having a better appreciation for sitting down and watching the evening news because it's You understand the economics of the world, you've got a heck of a lot more context to work with.

Nick VinZant 17:07 I know of the Fed. I know that the Fed is important, but I don't know what they do.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 17:12 Well, at the most basic level, the Fed is mandated with making sure that the dollar bill in our wallet retains its value. They're supposed to minimize inflation so that the buying power of your dollar is is is sustained over the long term, that that's that that's at the most basic and they're supposed to maximize employment in the US economy by having the most favorable interest rate policies that they can have to make sure that that lending is not cut off.

Nick VinZant 17:41 So for you like a typical day, are you watching the stock market pretty much all day long, looking at jobs reports, like how do you go about developing the research and the foresight that you have,

Danielle DiMartino Booth 17:53 you actually have a pretty good understanding of what I do. I follow the markets very closely every night. I watch it every Sunday evening, I watched the Asian markets open. I follow the news wires constantly. I watch economic data as it's released. And that's a worldwide phenomena. And and I follow what the financial markets, how they're interpreting it and what companies are reporting in terms of their earnings every three months or so that gives me an idea for where we are in any given economic cycle.

Nick VinZant 18:26 Are you ready for some of the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:31 Of course

Nick VinZant 18:32 Who do you think will have the harder time moving forward boomers or millennials?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:37 I think millennials will

Nick VinZant 18:39 have they gotten hit harder than any other generation in recent memory.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 18:44 Yes and No, I some of it lies at the feet of their parents who were overly indulgent. And some of it has to do with cosmically where they were. And that is in many ways At a time in American history when when four year college degrees were pursued to a fault, when there should have been more vocational training, encouraged in the US economy in order to maintain more balance,

Nick VinZant 19:14 do you see any kind of a collapse or any kind of big shift with all of the boomers retiring in the next 10 or 15 years?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 19:23 We definitely see going forward, what we call the silver tsunami. So there's going to be a disconnect, if you will, between the homes that boomers want to sell, and the homes that millennials want to buy. And some of it will be price in nature. And so I think that there will be a long term unexpected downturn in housing as boomers move to downsize unless that is their children are moving in with them, which is going to be the case increasingly. But yes, the boomers are going to be liquidating their their their investment portfolios and they We'll be consuming a lot less. The idea of boomers consuming less has been expedited by the Coronavirus because of the way that so many have reacted to the Coronavirus. And I say that they've reacted by not taking protections that allow older people to rejoin day to day life such that we really have locked down a lot of our seniors for longer than we otherwise would. And this will cause a long term ripple effect in consumption.

Nick VinZant 20:30 We try to stay a little bit away from politics in this on this particular podcast, I'll ask you this question. You don't have to name names, if you don't want to. But if you want to, then by all means, when you look at the upcoming election, do you look at one person as being significantly better than the other in terms of a financial policy

Danielle DiMartino Booth 20:50 better than the other in terms of financial policy? No would be the answer. I see. One of the underlying problems with politics in america today. Is that there is such extremism that you're voting for an extreme at one end or the other, as opposed to something that is closer to being rational and in the middle?

Nick VinZant 21:13 What is the best financial advice you have ever gotten or given

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:18 the best financial advice that I've ever received is to save that there is no substitute for actually saving your money that you cannot rely on investment returns as much as you can rely on having that discipline to always set aside money. And then you can invest it prudently such that it grows with time, but first you got to say that

Nick VinZant 21:39 will crypto ever be a real thing?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:42 I think that sovereign crypto is in the works and that major nations will have cryptocurrencies one day. Really? You think I mean that

Nick VinZant 21:55 that far, huh? Oh, gosh. Yes.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 21:57 It's It's It's part of technology. That, again the Coronavirus has completely expedited, you now have a huge part of everybody worldwide who who wants to transact at an arm's length and in a sense, get rid of cash. So I think that we will always hopefully have the ability to have to say, gee, I'm an American, I want my hundred dollar bill option, or I want to have it in my checking account. But I think that a sovereign cryptocurrency a Fed coin, if you will, is inevitable, because it's in the works in countries such as Russia, Venezuela and China. So in some way, it's a matter of national security to ensure that there is a sovereign cryptocurrency

Nick VinZant 22:41 is there another country out there that you see this kind of going to join the ranks of big economic powers in the next reasonable timeframe.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 22:49 So I do think that we should be on the lookout for some smaller countries such as Singapore, some smaller South Eastern Asian countries that are more open to, to freer capitalism, and to more honest trade than what we've grown accustomed to with China. And so I think that I think that looking for alternatives to China is going to open the doors. Indeed for new entrants.

Nick VinZant 23:24 This one's kind of light hearted. We asked people ahead of time. What do you think is the biggest overall waste of money?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 23:30 I would probably have to say iPhones.

Nick VinZant 23:34 Yeah, it's not really that much different than the other stuff, is it?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 23:39 No, unfortunately, it's become apparent to me throughout the years that that whatever happens when you download a security update, kills your battery. Makes it to where you, you get so frustrated, you want a new iPhone, but in terms of functionality, not much different generation to generation, just the price is what

Nick VinZant 24:01 I still got the old one. I still got the five works. works just great. I had a blackberry until last year.

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:09 I miss my Blackberry.

Nick VinZant 24:12 It's so great to just have the key. Did you have the keyboard kind? Or did you have the screen card?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:16 No, no, I had the keyboard kind. It was great.

Nick VinZant 24:18 I miss it. I really do. I really do. That's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything? Anything you think we missed? what's coming up next for you?

Danielle DiMartino Booth 24:31 I'll be doing a little bit of traveling, which is saying something I haven't been on the road since February. But I will just keep on keeping on. I've got a research company quill intelligence. We produce daily and weekly. And I'm always easily accessible on Twitter as well at DiMartino booth. So come visit.

Nick VinZant 24:49 I want to thank Danielle so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her we have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've all Also included her information on the RSS feed that's in this podcast.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly

Come for the pimple popping and back waxing horror stories, stay for the skin care and beauty tips. Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly joins us for this episode. We talk skin care secrets, the best way to pop pimples and beauty products that work. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Appliances.

Interview with Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly

Speakers

Nick VinZant : Profoundly Pointless Host

Reanne Kelly: Master Aesthetician

Nick VinZant 0:15 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're going to talk about skin and appliances.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 0:24 I mean, especially for women, and especially with social media and constant pictures, I think people are really taking the time to take care of their skin now and Oh gosh, there's so many. I mean, I've seen people completely, you know, burn their faces and you know, give themselves second degree burns with chemical peels. Lady I remember she tried to, she had some hyperpigmentation on her face. And instead of trying to treat it, she just got a tattoo gun off of Amazon and tried to color over it. I always tell people if they want to have it a really good skincare routine, SPF sun screen, vitamin A and vitamin C and you are going to be pretty set for life.

Nick VinZant 1:09 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So this episode is one of those where I had no idea that there was so much that went into this because not only does our first guests really have some fantastic insight into the best way to care for your skin and some really good beauty tips. But it's also this really interesting look at this strange things that people do because she has these stories that make you just what the hell was that person thinking? Our first guest is a master esthetician with over 10 years of experience. This is rianne Kelly. So What exactly is an aesthetician?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 2:02 So an esthetician is somebody that works with skin and you know, depending on the state, it can be a whole array of things but facials waxing, chemical peels micro needling and you know you go all the way up to like lasers, you know, for hair removal or resurfacing

Nick VinZant 2:21 I mean, do most people think about their skin that much, like I can't honestly say I ever really do.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 2:27 I think guys are becoming more aware of their skin and taking care of it. I have definitely a lot more male clientele that I did you know, when I started out 10 years ago, but I mean, especially for women, and especially with social media and constant pictures, I think people are really taking the time to take care of their skin now and we also have all this information at our fingertips. You know, so people are also becoming more savvy about skincare too. Can you really do something about it? Are you kind of your skin is your skin No, I mean, there's absolutely things that you can do for your skin. And it may take time and patience, but we can always improve situations. And it's definitely a team effort. I always say like, treatments are 20% of the process and your home cares 80% of the process. So it's a team effort, but you can really get phenomenal results. And that's one of the reasons that I love my job is because I can really have an impact on somebody's life.

Nick VinZant 3:27 Are you fixing a problem necessarily? Are you just trying to make somebody look better for lack of a better phrase?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 3:34 Yeah, I mean, a lot of times it is, you know, like a specific problem. wrinkles, acne hyperpigmentation, which is, you know, brown spots, freckles on the face. And you know, there times just kind of some people just won't get a while actually, I think most people want to get to a point for women anyways, that they don't have to wear makeup and they feel confident in the skin going upside.

Nick VinZant 3:58 What are you generally doing the most

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 4:02 For me, I'm more on the medical side of the spectrum for aestheticians. So I do a lot of micro needling chemical peels and lasers.

Nick VinZant 4:14 For somebody that doesn't know anything about it, like all of this sounds like that would be bad for the skin, like chemicals, oils and lasers on you

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 4:24 You definitely want to go to somebody who knows what they're doing, because in the wrong hands, it definitely can do damage. I always say like, with chemical peels, we're doing a controlled burn to stimulate college and production, fix the issue. So there is a fine line, you know, between good and bad, and that's why you definitely want to do your research and go to somebody good and then it's why I encourage my clients never to try to do these things at home because they can get these things off of Amazon and that's when you hear about all these horror stories. What's kind of like the worst horror story Oh gosh, there's so many. I mean, I've seen people completely, you know, burn their faces and, you know, give themselves second degree burns with chemical peels that they've gotten off Amazon. Lady I remember if you try to she had some hyperpigmentation on her face. And instead of trying to treat it she just got a tattoo gun off of Amazon and tried to color over it flesh color.

Nick VinZant 5:30 What?Like, like, but she just tried to tattoo over her own face.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 5:42 Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:43 Right, like hearing that. That makes no sense. But what is it about like somebody's skin that makes them desperate enough that they would do something like that.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 5:52 It can be a lot of things. I think, you know, money and patience are definitely Some big factors, maybe not trusting somebody else to do their skin or being able to find the right fit with somebody. And I think also with the technology that we have nowadays, I think people think that they can do it themselves too. Like I'm going to try this myself first and save some money.

Nick VinZant 6:19 When when we talk about like, what most people are doing wrong, what are most people doing wrong in terms of skincare?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 6:26 It's hard to answer because it It varies from person to person, what they're doing wrong.And depending on what their issue and concern is, but you know, just having a basic routine down probably the number one thing is, you know, people aren't wearing sunscreen. That's the biggest thing and washing their face and having kind of just a basic routine but I always tell people, sunscreen is the best thing you can do for your skin. If you want to be super minimal 80 to 90% of aging is due to the sun

Nick VinZant 6:59 Do they need to use like a certain SPF or is pretty much anything enough?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 7:06 I always recommend at least an SPF of 30 and above and if you can find one with zinc oxide or titanium dioxide, those are two physical, UV filters. Those are the best ones and they cover that full, UVA UVB spectrum of protection, which is awesome.

Nick VinZant 7:24 What are some of the most popular treatments that an aesthetician is doing?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 7:30 I think most aestheticians we're known for like facials, and waxing facials are amazing. You not only come out with glowing clean skin, but you also feel very relaxed at the same time. How did you get into this? I actually started working at a medical Spa in high school, part time doing I started off as a spa assistant, and then worked my way up to front desk and went to college for a couple of years and I just was like you know, this isn't what I want to do and kind of always have In the back of my mind, because I love beauty and helping people feel better about themselves. So I just left school and went for it and it was the best decision I've ever made.

Nick VinZant 8:10 Is it financially lucrative in and of itself? Or do you have to kind of own your own business for it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 8:16 It can be very financially lucrative, but it takes time. It is definitely not. There's definitely I always tell people who want advice, I always say, it's gonna take some time you have to hustle. You may not be where you want to be right away. But if you stick with it, it's a really amazing job. You love what you do. And you can be totally, you know, financially stable and more so, but you don't necessarily you don't necessarily have to own your own business to get there. The last place I worked at a big medical spa, and I was making very good money, so and able to financially support myself.

Nick VinZant 8:56 Why do people like watching pimple popping videos

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:01 I happen to be one of those sick people. Any aesthetician probably loves pimple popping as well. I think there's something about there's a problem. And you can actually see yourself getting rid of it that you get that you get that visual satisfaction and if you're actually doing the extraction, I mean, you can actually feel things like popping out and moving. And so it's very, like satisfying in that way like, Oh, I got it

Nick VinZant 9:36 more satisfying to pop your own pimple or somebody else's pimple.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:40 I mean, more satisfying to do somebody else cuz then it doesn't hurt me at all.

Nick VinZant 9:47 That's it every time I've been asked to like pop someone else's pimple like you can crank away on somebody else.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 9:53 Yes. And yeah, and I definitely I get lost in extraction. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, I was supposed to just do 10 minutes. extractions and that was 30 minutes. Sorry.

Nick VinZant 10:03 Is there a good technique like what's the best pimple popping technique?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 10:08 Definitely, there's definitely a technique to it because you don't want to injure or hurt the skin anymore. So I always tell people, if they're going going to do it at home, you know, do it after a shower or take a rag and run it under hot water and kind of hold it on the pimple for a couple of minutes just to soften the seat them, the oil in the pimple. And then wash your hands. Wash the area if you didn't do it right after the shower, and wrap your fingers with some toilet paper or you can use the ends of like q tips. And you just want to go on the very sides of the pimple and you want to push down and that way everything is pushed up. And if it doesn't come easily, step back and leave it alone. Clean it. Come back to it another day. I can't though I can't Seen it is really good, you can do that I sing it to help with the inflammation. Raw manuka honey is actually a really good spot treatment too, because it's anti inflammatory. It's antibacterial. And it's also a humectant. So it doesn't. So it hydrates the skin.

Nick VinZant 11:16 You have a really good Instagram following when you first kind of started we were you surprised that so many people were, were looking for this?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 11:25 Yes or no. But when I started Instagram, it was probably like, five years ago now more than five years ago, gosh, like seven. And there weren't a ton of estheticians on Instagram when I started it. And that's kind of why I started it. I wanted to get that education out there for people. And it's definitely I mean, it's really grown in the last year and I think now like, every statistic is on Instagram because it's free marketing, whether they're trying to educate or just trying to help build their business. Hardest place to pop a pimple artist placed to pop a pimple back can be backs can be a little bit stubborn. I feel like you can't, you know, the skin isn't as pliable so it's a little harder to work with. But yeah, it not necessarily is due to the area is due to the pencil sometimes to the type of pencil and if it's ready or not to come out, oh,

Nick VinZant 12:25 here's another one. What are these things on my nose? They didn't. There's no picture they just put what are these things on?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 12:35 Well, I'm guessing they're probably blackheads or sebaceous filaments sebaceous filaments, they kind of look like blackheads but they're supposed to naturally be in our nose. So yes, you can squeeze them out but they're always going to come right back. And then blackheads is you know, see them and dirt is in the poor and it gets exposed to all Oxygen, and turns black and that's why you see those blackheads in the poor, biggest waste of time treatment or product. That's I would say, I would say more of a fluffy In my opinion, something more of a fluffy facial because yes, it's relaxing but it's not, you know, doing much for your skin. I would say if you're going to do a facial at least do something slightly corrective

Nick VinZant 13:24 There's so many products that are out there for people are there are there really things that seem to work better than other ones?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 13:32 Absolutely. And I always tell people if they want to have a really good skincare routine, SPF sunscreen, vitamin A and vitamin C and you are going to be pretty set for life. We know that vitamin A, or retinoids, as they're called, they stimulate collagen production. And they do a whole other lot of things but collagen production is really what they're known for. And as we age We get into our early 20s, we start slowing down in our collagen production. So it's essential to start those really soon as soon as you can, and it's never too late either. But, and then vitamin C is an antioxidant. It helps with free radical damage, which is everywhere the sun pollution, we create them in our bodies. But also without vitamin C, we can't make or store collagen. So they kind of need each other in a sense to and then of course, you know, SPF is going to block the sun and washing your face is going to make sure you're getting all that dirt pollution and grime off of your face and your leftover products too. So the products you put on afterwards can penetrate well.

Nick VinZant 14:43 Is there one product that you would say like oh, that's that's the that's the jam. That's what people need.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 14:50 I don't know I honestly I could not pick one. I mean if it was that, if I had to pick one product like I said SPF is the most efficient Product

Nick VinZant 15:00 What about lotion or something like that? Is there? Is there one stuff that's better than other ones?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:06 It depends. It's so hard because there's so many products out there nowadays and they all do different things. So you have moisturizers and lotions that are more hydrating, some of them are more anti aging. Some of them are frightening. You know, and some of them kind of do a mix of all of them.

Nick VinZant 15:25 Are they really doing something? No, or some of them kind of like a marketing waste?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:30 Definitely, some are a marketing waste thing. You know, moisturizers, I always tell people if they want to invest properly and invest well in products serums are where people should spend money on because serums they're smaller molecules. So they're going to penetrate deeper into the skin. And then of course, it's they're super concentrated too. So you're getting a lot of bang for your buck.

Nick VinZant 15:53 Serum, I'm not sure what that is

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 15:57 so serums there. really lightweight, they can go anywhere from Gosh, a super watery consistency to kind of a lotion consistency and anything in between. But some of them there's a serum for everything I mean, acne, hyperpigmentation, hydration, you know, moisturizers and lotions. They're good for hydrating the skin and kind of making a barrier, but they're not going to be at corrective as serums would be.

Nick VinZant 16:29 No, do you do Botox or is that is that a medical doctor that has to do?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 16:33 Yeah, depends on the state. There are some states where estheticians can inject but I'm very against that and don't think that should be done. But typically it is a nurse or a doctor who's doing Botox or filler.

Nick VinZant 16:48 So how can people kind of find a make sure they have somebody that really knows what they're doing?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 16:55 Definitely checking out, you know, their referrals. Get it checking their Instagram, kind of following them for a while. And of course, word of mouth referrals too. And, you know, you can always ask people like, what their background is. And I encourage that too, in most Consultations are free with people so you can kind of go around and see who's the best fit for you.

Nick VinZant 17:20 Here's another listener question. What is the grossest thing you've ever had to do? Oh, God.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:29 I don't know if that's safe.

Nick VinZant 17:33 It's look it's, there's no there's nothing's off limits. It's not for kids. Now I'm really curious, like, what was it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:42 Um, I think probably my worst experiences which I don't do this anymore. was with waxing.

Nick VinZant 17:51 Oh, yeah.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 17:55 And you have to wax you know, I was very good at waxing. I was very Fast they did a good job. But that's always where you kind of usually run into issues and stuff like that. So yeah, just you know, people not being clean enough for having, you know, accidents like starting their period in the middle of a wax or not wiping well enough and they turn over and you're like, oh, god

Nick VinZant 18:26 I almost threw up. Because I could imagine

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:29 like, yeah, you feel that way sometimes.

Nick VinZant 18:33 Was it a guy who didn't wipe enough for a girl?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:36 Girl

Nick VinZant 18:37 Really? I get like a guy I could see maybe he thought it was gas and didn't check correctly. That doesn't seem like a thing a woman would necessarily do.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 18:48 I know. But now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I've ever had a man.I've never had a man. leave anything back there.

Nick VinZant 18:56 Yeah, no. Maybe we're better. Maybe we're better wipe

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:03 Maybe they're just really paranoid before they come in. They're like, I gotta make sure this is good.

Nick VinZant 19:08 Have you ever had a guy though that came in and you're just like, buddy, I can't help you. I'm not. I'm not tackling that whole thing you got going on back there.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:19 No, No, I haven't. No, luckily.

Nick VinZant 19:22 So Laser Hair Removal, does that really work, does it do what's advertised?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 19:30 Well, it's a permanent form of hair reduction is what I always tell my clients. So it's a hair reduction, can you get 100%? Yes, it's possible. And then as far as coming back, the only thing that can bring the hair back is hormones. So for females, that's more of the face area. So I always tell them, they'll have to have touch ups every once in a while because that's kind of women's hormonal area. And then for guys, unfortunately, its backs that there hormonal area.

Nick VinZant 20:01 Oh, I've heard I've heard of women that have like after, after they have a baby, they kind of get a moustache look.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 20:09 Yeah. So obviously in pregnancy hormones are the issue. So sometimes after somebody has a baby, that could stimulate some hair growth, they come back and do a couple of touch ups and then they're good to go again. I've seen some where they almost look like the pigmentation changes, though. Is that Yeah, no, that's melasma and or the pregnancy mass, and typically is associated with pregnancy, but it can happen outside of pregnancy. I see it a lot with young girls who are on birth control, and then usually a combination of birth control and sun exposure. And it triggers that pregnancy mask.

Nick VinZant 20:47 I was I was looking at some of the, you know, the some of your before or after posts. These are people can they be pretty emotional afterwards.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 20:56 Yeah, absolutely. And it's Whereas it's just so rewarding to be able to help somebody feel confident in their skin. Just the best feeling.

Nick VinZant 21:07 What advice would you give for somebody during the awkward teenage acne years?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 21:14 Definitely, if somebody is having a problem, it can be so hard for teenagers because they're so self confident about it. Sorry, self conscious about it. And especially like teenage guys, they really don't ask for help a lot. So usually, it's their mom's bringing them in and just, you know, go to the doctor, go to an aesthetician get the problem fixed now rather than later, because I just, it breaks my heart when I have these teenagers come in who have been dealing with it for years and they're so self conscious and then they have all this scarring, which is permanent, and it just really affects their self esteem. What do you think? Why is it such like leaves such lasting impact on us, like, even in our 30s I know people that are still super self conscious. Yeah. You know, it's our face. It's our skin. And it's the first thing that people see. And I think especially now, you know, I grew up kind of when technology was, you know, like I had a cell phone in middle school. But we didn't take selfies. We didn't have all these filters with Snapchat and stuff. And my friend's daughter who's 15, she's constantly on Snapchat with these filters, and it makes you look like you have amazing flawless skin. And then if that filter comes off, you're like, oh, why doesn't my skin look that good? So I think there's a lot of judging ourselves on, and especially what we see in the media, too. I mean, magazines and television. They're all edited. We're not so we think people have this amazing skin. I'm like, No, their skin does not look like them in real life.

Nick VinZant 22:58 That's always gonna Like there's anybody, have you ever seen somebody whose skin actually really looks like that?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 23:05 I mean, people have, can have beautiful skin, but what they're seeing, you know, in magazines and stuff, they have less wrinkles. They don't have any pores. And it's like, no, it's all skin has pores, and, you know, so they can have beautiful skin, but I guarantee you, it's not going to look like it does, you know, edited by Photoshop,

Nick VinZant 23:27 can you really kind of stop the aging process? Or are you basically just controlling it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 23:33 you're controlling it, you know, aging is always a constant battle. So you're helping to control it and to slow it down as much as possible. And depending on how aggressive you want to be with treatments, I mean, you can definitely, you know, it's all it's not about necessarily looking younger, it's about feeling good and looking good for your age.

Nick VinZant 23:56 People don't tan anymore. Do they do that.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:00 They do unfortunately,

Nick VinZant 24:02 that's just a disaster, right?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:04 It is. It is. It's so sad. I'm a big cancer advocate. And so the whole month of May I dedicate my Instagram to skin cancer awareness. And I have to do all of this research and find info to put on it. And I see all of these stories of, you know, men and women, teenagers, 20 year old 30 year olds dying from skin cancer, because, you know, they were tanning AND and OR using tanning beds, and it's just heartbreaking.

Nick VinZant 24:36 I thought they outlawed them in some places, right?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 24:39 They know. They're, they're banned in Australia. But I'm here most states and in Washington. We I was actually a woman, a young girl I should say in her 20s 20s 30s she was she died from melanoma. And her and her parents worked really hard to get a bill passed in Washington that you have to be 18 or over to use a tanning bed or have a parent signature.

Nick VinZant 25:11 What would you think is the most fascinating thing about it?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 25:15 The skin isn't just fat, you know, it's our largest organ in our body and I think we forget about that because it's on the outside. But I mean, it does so many things. I mean, it regulates body body temperature, it keeps things from coming in and coming out, you know, sweat comes from it and not only you know, it's it's self repairing, I mean, you get a cut or a, you know, a wound in your skin is going to try to repair that I mean, that's pretty amazing. You not many other organs can do that and repair themselves and that's kind of where estheticians come in. We do these controlled injuries to stimulate collagen production and try to help heal the skin.

Nick VinZant 25:53 Is there really a right way to put on lotion or to dry yourself with a towel? Is that stuff true?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:01 No, no. I mean, as long as you're getting the lotion on your skin, I know a lot of times I'll see. You know, make sure you're doing upward movements on the neck. And I'm like, that's no, your skin too. Can't tell which direction we're applying it.

Nick VinZant 26:16 I saw something once though. Where you're not supposed to dry your face you pat your face.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:21 Yeah, you want to pat it, you just don't want to be too aggressive because towels can be kind of abrasive and, you know, cause irritation. And then of course, you always want to use a clean towel too, because you don't want to put any bacteria on your face as well.

Nick VinZant 26:35 I have a personal opinion that wash cloths are disgusting, and no one should be using them. Is that true?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 26:41 I kind of feel the same way. I mean, but there there are some really great soft like microfiber washcloths now that are just super soft and not abrasive. And as long as you're using a new one each time, that would be fine.

Nick VinZant 26:57 Or guys embarrassed when they come in, do they try to act a certain way

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 27:00 They do some, I mean, sometimes you can tell they're a little bit hesitant but like I said, you know, the last couple years guys have really started to get into skincare. And, and a lot I have some followers that are guys and they're so knowledgeable, knowledgeable about it too. So that sometimes Yeah, they are a little embarrassed especially a lot of times guys are coming in for like acne related problems so they're already a little self conscious to begin with.

Nick VinZant 27:31 I used to be a TV news anchor. And I had an agent that recommended like your eyebrows are too pointy you need to get that taken care of of. It was kind of nice. I'm not gonna lie.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 27:44 Yeah, I do see that. And I do a lot of laser hair removal on guys too. And you know, they love it knows that that kind of gets them into the arena to and starts to get make them think about doing things.

Nick VinZant 27:58 Do you have any advice For somebody with splotchy facial hair

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:03 in what regard?

Nick VinZant 28:07 I can't grow a beard, and I just feel stupid.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:10 Yeah, well, they do do beard transplants and hair transplants have really come a long way. They look really amazing. I mean, you can't even tell anymore. You could also try doing PRP injections in the area to see if that stimulates some hair growth and PRP is when we draw blood from you. We spin it to separate it and then we take the PRP which is basically liquid gold, it's just full of like growth factors and all this good stuff. And then they can inject it into the areas to help stimulate hair growth. Do it a lot on people who are having, you know, losing hair on their head

Nick VinZant 28:51 They can do that for male pattern baldness.

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 28:55 Yes they can do it for balding but not bald. There still there still has to be some You know, follicles in the area?

Nick VinZant 29:03 That is That seems to be the big thing for guys right when they lose their hair?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 29:08 Oh, definitely. I think it's an issue for guys that they don't really I mean, it definitely affects their self confidence and I just don't think it's talked about enough and it's not made normal enough to, you know, try and fix the issue so guys just live with it a lot of times and it affects them.

Nick VinZant 29:27 If people are kind of interested in booking an appointment with you, they want to follow you what should they do?

Master Aesthetician Reanne Kelly 29:33 So Instagram is probably the best way to get in touch with me. My Instagram handle is the dot master dot s petition with an A in front of it. And that has all of my info on there where I'm located. I'm opening up a business as soon as all of this COVID stuff is over and it'll be in Bellevue area and you can see all my before and afters and stuff like that kind of get to know me. And you can also always shoot me an email and my email is the master esthetician@gmail.com.

Nick VinZant 30:09 I want to thank Reanne so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we've linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included information about how to contact her on the RSS feed that's on this podcast, her Instagram. It's, if you really like pimple popping videos as a place to be man. That's the place to be.

Professional Companion Stacy X

What's a Professional Companion? It's a new term, for an old profession. Stacy X joins us for an inside look at a secretive industry that's more than what it seems. We talk unusual requests, famous clients and empowering women. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Places to have Excess Body Hair.

Interview with Stacy Robertson

Speakers

Nick VinZant - Profoundly Pointless Host

Stacy Robertson - Professional Companion

Nick VinZant 0:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going to talk to a professional companion, and then count down the top five worst places to have excess body hair.

Stacy Robertson 0:28

I would say people outside of the industry tend to think that it's really all just about sex or kind of high level prostitution. But it's actually not. You know how to do that and how to meet those needs. Ideally, most of these men would love to have their needs met at home. They would prefer to be having sex with their wives and they would be with, you know, me or somebody else. But the reality is, every single day I'm willing to face rape, assault, murder, every single day that I opened my door to someone, the view is that I've met some women that I tell you what they are a force to be reckoned with in this industry, and it has been very empowering for me as a woman.

Nick VinZant 1:12

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. Our first guest is fascinating. It's just a fascinating story. She's a professional companion. And if you don't know what that is, it's basically a high end escort. And she gives us this really interesting look at what a sex workers life is really like. That includes everything from dangerous situations, married men, unusual requests. And even some famous clients that you might have heard of. This is professional companion, Stacy Robertson.

Nick VinZant

So essentially how did you become a professional companion

Stacy Robertson 2:02

So I have a master's degree in counseling and I'm 20 years as a child and family therapist. And I got really burnt out. And after 20 years of being in this tournament Initially, I came in as a girl into the adult industry, and because I could do my full time job during the day, and then I work at night, like from 10pm or 11pm to three in the morning. And then the first week of ketamine, I was like, I texted my friend and I was like, my vagina. I was like, you know what I actually prefer? I really miss the in person, aspect of connecting with people. So I did about six months of research. There are I ordered a whole bunch of books on Amazon and read a lot of websites And articles before I stepped into the industry as a companion, and then, so after about six months or so of kameen, and doing a lot of research, I put up my first ad and so that I could, that I could just kind of rest and recover from a long time of working in crisis and, you know, pretty high intense cases as a therapist, So a professional companion and an escort is that the same thing or is that technically different? I consider it to be the same thing. Yeah, I think that there's been kind of an industry to move away from the term of escort because it has some negative connotations, perhaps. And also, you know, professional companion really emphasizes more around the relationships and that are developed and the connection that you have during because that's really what a lot of people want. I would say people outside of the industry tend to think that it's really all just about sex or kind of high level prostitution. But it's actually not

Nick VinZant 4:02

the elephant in the room question like, when you do this, are you having sex with people or not? Or does it depend? Stacy Robertson 4:10 Yeah, so it really just depends. So, ultimately, you know, on the front end, it's always about my time. So a person will, you know, connect with me to spend time with me and that's ultimately what they're paying for is, you know, my ability to connect and to make them feel, you know, adored and appreciated and, and in my kind of therapy worlds, I would my ability to be present with them. And then as adults, you know, if we choose to do something else with that times, and then we then we can do that, and yes, that does happen,

Nick VinZant 4:43

but they're not specifically paying for that necessarily.

Stacy Robertson 4:47 Correct. Yeah. And if anybody wants, like, I don't typically attract those kind of clients anyways. And so, you know, if someone kind of comes at me, and that's what they want, or they're approaching me, you Yourprimary role or function or what I enjoy the time together with people, so,

Nick VinZant 5:12

but do you feel more pressure like okay, yeah, maybe I will do this, maybe I won't, but there is pressure there, like does the money involve, make you make a decision that maybe you normally wouldn't make?

Stacy Robertson 5:28

No, not for me. It doesn't. And I would say that generally speaking, yes, there is an underlying assumption that the possibility is there. You know, when when anyone says that appointment when I scheduled an appointment like that, yeah, that's the underlying assumption is that we may, you know, that door can be open, just depending on how the interaction goes, you know, someone may not be you know, they may find that they're totally not and, you know, and that's okay too. Or, you know, it may they may have you know, other kinds of issues going on that it doesn't go down that route. But the doors is definitely there for it to happen if we choose to.

Nick VinZant 6:08

Have you ever had somebody get, you know, angry when it doesn't happen?

Stacy Robertson 6:13

I have not. No, I've had very positive actually very positive experiences with, you know, gentlemen or clients in the industry. Very few. I know that it seems like it might be common to have a more negative experience for people who are just kind of jerks. But that's not the case. Most of the people I encounter are actually very, very cordial, very polite, a lot of them are married and have families, they own businesses and, you know, so they're not out there trying to, you know, be mean to people typically.

Nick VinZant 6:52

Are they looking for sex? Are they really looking for just companionship?

Stacy Robertson 6:57 I would say that they claim that They're looking for sex. But the reality is they're looking for connection, you know, at least for me, in my sessions and, you know, I, I tend to be as a therapist I was what's called string space and solution focused which works really well for the adult industry because I'm you know, it doesn't matter what someone looks like when they show up at my door, you know, I'm going to find all the things that are just awesome about them, and that I adore about them and, you know, find ways to connect and to talk and to laugh and giggle and they are my number one priority in that hour. I make them feel like I don't have my attention anywhere else. And and I enjoy that. And there's, to me a therapeutic value in that as well. Because it doesn't happen very often. today's day and age people are, you know, their relationships are strained. They're struggling. They're, you know, I don't know, I don't know that people really take time to really be with one another.

Nick VinZant 7:58

You mentioned some of the men were married. Do their wives know or is it a secret

Stacy Robertson 8:06

Yeah. And that's a really, really good question because I do get, I get asked that a lot even from so I choose to be open in my life, my, my real name, I am transparent about what I do with my family members, my friends, my colleagues, everyone knows, I don't go to the PTA and announce it. But if someone asks me, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to share with them and tell them so I get asked that question quite a bit. And ultimately, what I believe foundational truth for me is that people have a right to have their needs met. And if they're not having that in a relationship, and I would say that's primarily, like, I think that people have the perception that, you know, men who do this are just kind of jerks and they just want to, you know, they're sex addicts and and, you know, they just want to get off and That's all their focus and you're just stepping out, you know, being an ass about it. But that's not actually the case. Most of the men that I know who do this, they're not getting any sex at home and haven't in months, or years. And that is it's shocking to me. It's appalling to me. And, and there's times that I just want to shake wives and say, Hey, you know, please connect with and meet the needs of your husband. And, and maybe he's not either, you know, there's obviously some dynamics that are happening and relationships just are not working for people. So that's the place that I come from is that ultimately he has been met at homosexual needs, he is going to find a way to meet them. That is how human nature is and works. And there's all kinds of avenues you know, for how you know how to do that and how to meet those needs. Ideally, most of these men would love to have their needs met at home, they would prefer to be having sex with their wives and they would be with, you know, me or somebody else. So I, you know, and when I have an appointment, I actually hold that relationship. Kind of this might sound odd, but that's okay. Because I'm an energetic practitioners well studied Eastern and Western philosophies and all kinds of alternative medicine and all kinds of alternative things. So I create a space where I create space for their relationship to be there with us and kind of hold that sacredness. And my hope is that anything that we do, you know, in all of our talking and all of our interaction, that this gentleman goes out into the world, a better person, that he feels happier, he feels more connected, that he might be more likely to connect with his family, with his wife, with you know, be nicer when he's driving on the road. You know, so Maybe it's Pollyanna in nature, the way that I view things, but that's really what's important to me. And I feel like for the most part, the feedback that I get is that that's what happens is that you know, someone is able to leave and feel better about themselves and sit and I also just endorsed not feeling shame and guilt about what you want and what you need. And a lot of people struggle with that still, they struggle with feeling validated that they have a right to have sexual desires. I feel like most men feel really guilty about that. And women don't understand. They don't understand maybe the nature of a man's brain, his body, his relationship with his penis, you know, and the need to and men struggle with with vocalizing those things. So there's still a lot of room for us to grow in our culture around talking about sex and connecting with ourselves about sex. is still a very taboo subject. Now obviously, as a woman, you know, I don't want to hurt anyone at all, you know, and you know, if I have run into situations where I happen to have yes or no in the community someone's you know, partner also humanizes the experiment, you know, puts a name and a face to, you know, this woman who's on the other side of this relationship, you know, for perhaps the client.And so I just really practice not judging and allowing myself to feel difficult feelings around like, yeah, this doesn't feel very good. And I know that it wouldn't feel very good to her. She knew that. But I also recognize that there's a deeper issue in the relationship than just what's happening, you know, at the surface. And so, I still feel, you know, valid and being able to say like, hey, there's there's something here that's broken and needs to be fixed. But it's not necessarily my industry or my role in the industry. If that makes sense.

Nick VinZant 13:06 It does. So your first time that you did this, what was that? Like? Were you nervous? Did you know what to expect?

Stacy Robertson 13:15 I was very, very nervous. And I actually really grateful that I just feel blessed. Because my actual first experience, you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know. And I, you know, I actually put myself in danger. And so I look back at that and I'm like, oh, my goodness, thank goodness that I was okay. And, you know, so, I, you know, I met up with someone who have you given me a lot of information and, you know, was we were outside it was late at night, you know, and so it was really kind of awkward, and it was my you know, spidey senses were kind of going off, but I just didn't know what I didn't know. And at the time, even though done a lot of research, you know, you still just think I'm not sure exactly what to expect. And, and the safety aspect is certainly a big issue and something that, you know, you want to especially women in the industry feel, you know, a lot of them feel very unsafe because, you know, we're meeting people who are strangers to us that we don't know. And we don't know, you know, we're, we're in our personal proximity to them. So our bodies and our homes and our, you know, whatever, are kind of vulnerable, so to speak. So, it was, yeah, it was a little nerve wracking. And I would say the first probably year and a half that I was in the industry, I was really timid about it. And then this last almost a year now, I've, I just kind of said, You know what, I'm gonna own this, I'm gonna own my role. I'm gonna own This is who I am and this is what I do, and I'm gonna go with it. And when I did that it made a huge difference. Are you really highly sexual in the first place? You know, I would not have initially considered myself to be highly sexual. But I, I also think that if I'm comparing myself to people that are in the industry, you know, I'm pretty girl next door and on a funny note kind of vanilla for someone who does have as much sexual experiences I do. I get some good laughs about that. But, you know, overall, maybe compared to other women, or even if I compared myself to, you know, previous versions of myself in my life, I certainly am more sexual now than I ever have been. But that's been a journey. Since for about the last nine years or so, pretty much after I turned 40 I just got really invested in Canada. Been with my body and understanding my body better, and understanding pleasure and how to have more pleasure. That's been. And that's been it's been a fun journey to learn how to take that. So

Nick VinZant 16:13

how much do you charge? Like, how much money can you make doing this?

Stacy Robertson 16:17

Well, you can make a lot of money. I mean, I, you know, my, my rate is three, I'm trying to think of what I'm at right now, like $350 an hour. And so it just depends on how many, you know, clients that you're able to see in a week or want to see I don't tend to, you know, I tend to err are probably unless, so I might see one to two a day. And usually I just work Monday through Fridays, but sometimes I do evenings or weekends, just depending on the person.

Nick VinZant 16:53

what's the downside? Like, why aren't more people doing this? Gosh, there's tons of downsides. I mean, I think that so there's a huge amount of stigma that is associated, you know, with this, there's legal issues that are associated with it, that you have to be very mindful and very careful about their safety issues. You know, I mean, as I say, I mean, I could, I can vet someone, but the reality is, every single day, I'm willing to face rape, assault, murder, every single day that I opened my door to someone and force for me to feel that passionate about what I do that I'm willing to face those things. You know, it really says something about the industry also and how important it is. The other downside is people get, you know, I mean, there's people who have stalkers, there's people who lose their family members, and friends because of it. You know, because outside of the industry, it's really difficult for people to understand you The work that we do, and the risks that we face, and, you know, and then judgment around, you know, because there's a lot of kind of alternative lifestyle, and fetishes that I'm now familiar with that I, you know, wasn't familiar before coming into the industry. And you know, a lot of people have judgments about those things. So, I would say that that's the primary reason that most people, you know, they use a persona and a fake name and an alias and take all kinds of measures to protect themselves. I just, I, I was mentored by someone else in the industry who she also uses her real name and she's very authentic. She's 10 years older than me. And it just mattered to me to be more congruent and authentic with who I am and transparent. And I'm willing to have those difficult conversations with people in my personal life. And so it's also I just consider it to be a luxury as well. I'm educated and articulate, and therefore I feel a sense of, you know, really wanting to advocate for the industry or take a stand and say, Hey, you know, this, this isn't as bad as what people think that it is. And there's lots of us who are who are doing this. And we are, you know, great and empowered women. Because I think that the the view is that I've met some woman that I tell you what, they are a force to be reckoned with. in this industry, and it has been very empowering for me as a woman. No, I haven't encountered at all I kind of that idea around people thinking, Oh, you're just being sex traffic or Oh, Daddy issues or, you know, I don't find that to be true. Is this legal?

Stacy Robertson 19:48

No.

Nick VinZant 19:51

But is even Okay, is it even kind of legal in the sense like, Alright, I'm not selling you drugs. I'm selling you this. A piece of paper and the drugs come free. Like, can you get it around it like that? Or is it basically like no matter how you do this, it ain't legal.

Stacy Robertson 20:09

Yeah. So that would explain kind of what it is. Yeah. So it's basically I'm selling you my time. You know, you're, you're paying to spend time with me. And if nothing else occurs, then great. That's a bonus. And that's kind of the workaround for, you know, not considering it, active prostitution. You know, that you're not actually selling a sex act, a particular sex act for money. So there's a lot of wording around that.So that people can stay, but there's, yeah,

Nick VinZant 20:52

there's not like undercover police trying to catch you or something like that.

Stacy Robertson 20:57 Yes, sir.

Nick VinZant 20:59 Did you spot him Or like, Did you get arrested? Or what? What happened?

Stacy Robertson 21:03

No, no, it's just known in the industry. I mean, they set up scenes. And I would say that's the primary way that they, you know, try to catch, you know, catch people or arrest people is through things like, you know, usually they're gonna set up for high volume. But yeah, they're always looking for me, that's the very first thing that I note or that I, you know, create awareness around when I'm talking with someone who's new is, you know, in the back of my mind, is this the police officer? And are they are there certain kinds of behaviors that they're doing that would lead me to think that maybe they are. So it's a daily thought, and you worry about that happening? Yeah, I guess I feel kind of

Nick VinZant 21:53

there's a difference, right? There's a difference between the person on the street and somebody like yourself, like one I get Guess the other I don't quite get why somebody is, how do you feel about it? Do you feel like what you're doing should be illegal? Or do you feel like it should be fine?

Stacy Robertson 22:10

I think it should be decriminalized. For sure. Because there's, you know, I would say that the the fact that it is illegal is around, you know, there's just lots of stuff, right? It's a way to oppress a certain population, it's a way to control it's a way to, you know, generate more money, lots of things. And certainly people are worried about trafficking. And yes, no one wants someone who's under aged or someone who's being coerced in the industry. You know, those are all bad things. So, you know, bad from the standpoint of not healthy or helpful for someone. But the majority of people in the industry are not that and they're not doing that, and not even anything close to that. And so and you know, this is It's considered the like, the oldest prostitute or oldest profession in the world is prostitution. So, you know, there's all of this stigma, and all of these things. But yeah, the reality is also that sex is a very, very typically a very small portion of the interaction. I mean, I have people who, you know, pay for overnight dates, and I might spend, you know, 12 hours or 24 hours with them, and we're, you know, going to concerts and going out to dinner and, and laughing and watching comedies. You know, it's like, we're spending 11 and a half hours hanging out and doing everything but sex. So there's so much more to it than, you know, some blowjob in a back alley. So,

Nick VinZant 23:53

are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Stacy Robertson 23:57

Sure.

Nick VinZant 23:58

Most interesting things. Someone has asked you to do.

Stacy Robertson 24:03

So I had a client who wanted me to dress up and so I was in hoes and heels and dress pants and a silk shirt as if I was going to the office. And they wanted me to lay on the bed with them and talk with them about how if I got really angry, I could overpower them. And then I would turn into the Hulk if I got really angry. And I mean, like for like, three hours worth of time

Nick VinZant 24:33

like specifically the Hulk

Stacy Robertson 24:35

Yeah, yeah, specifically that i would i would just turn into this Hogan in range. And not necessarily like you know, my clothes was rip off and I grow and you know, get like, like the Hulk but that Yeah, I could, I could just be really mean and I and I get really strong when I get angry and I could hurt it.

Nick VinZant 24:56

Did you get it? Or did you understand why they wanted this? Or was it Just like, okay,

Stacy Robertson 25:02

no, yeah. And of course, you know, the therapist in me is I love trying to understand human behavior and why people do what they do. So in the back of my mind, I, you know, there were times that I'm like, What is going on here? You know, and I and I've had other requests to, especially like foot fetishes and things like that. And I can't say, I mean, what I did get it with this particular person is that, you know, they're, you know, probably like an engineer, like our profession, very type a, you know, they were in, you know, higher up in management and things. And so, a lot of times that will lend itself to someone who wants to be more submissive in the bedroom, if they've been, you know, very kind of in a powerful position outside. But at the same time, it's a very, it was a very unique request. And so, yeah, I wasn't really sure why, but I was willing to, you know, I was willing to try and And see if that would make them happy.

Nick VinZant 26:05

Most you have made in a week.

Stacy Robertson 26:10

Let's see most of made in a week. Probably had a close to $5,000 a week before. That's pretty good money.

Nick VinZant 26:22

Now is that from one person or is that just from?

Stacy Robertson 26:27

No Yeah, from multiple like one time I had to, like the week of Christmas. I think it was I had two overnights that week actually. And those are like 2020 $500 a pop. So yeah, I made actually I probably made 7000 that week.

Nick VinZant 26:44

Would anybody listening know any of your clients? Okay, so that implies like, if there's just regular random listeners, if I've had a client that would be no, were they right? Yeah. Like somebody who people would know who that person is?

Stacy Robertson 27:07

At least locally? Yes

Nick VinZant 27:08

Can you name the industry? Now, I'm really curious Let me ask, Can I ask you this business or athletics related?

Stacy Robertson 27:19

Both

Nick VinZant 27:25

Younger or older.

Stacy Robertson 27:37

Both, but mostly older

Nick VinZant 27:37

Okay, last question. And last question in this regard, if on a one on a scale of like one, they're just kind of famous, like, maybe somebody has heard of them somewhere some day like, in a town of in a town of 100 people, they're known 10 like worldwide global celebrity, where would you put them at in That list from like, least to most famous.

Stacy Robertson 28:06

Let's see. So, probably like a five.

Nick VinZant 28:10

It's still pretty good. That's like yeah, that's like a not really well watched Hollywood movie kind of famous.

Stacy Robertson 28:20

Yeah, like a well known actress.

Nick VinZant 28:26

how does you know how to family and friends feel about it.

Stacy Robertson 28:34

I just feel really, really blessed. You know, my family and my friends have been just incredible. But, you know, I think too, they know me. And so, I will tell you this is kind of funny when I sat my mom down a couple years ago. And it was like, around Mother's Day or my birthday or something like that. I said, Mom, I've got something to tell you and said okay, so I told her and she just looked at me and Through all Do you have anything to say? And she's like, at least you're not pregnant again.

Nick VinZant 29:12

yeah, that's

Stacy Robertson 29:16

that's all she had to say. Most of them just asked me, you know, my kids, my sons are older. And you know, I've got kids that are in there. My daughter's turning 30. And then most of them are in their 20s and some teenagers. So they just ask, Are you being safe? Are you safe? You know? And I said, Yeah, that's about it. I'm like, Okay, cool. Are you happy? Yeah. All right.

Nick VinZant 29:38

It's such an interesting thing, right? Because you do what you do, and people would have a certain kind of reaction to that. And then there's people who might be like, a lawyer, and they've ripped off thousands of people or you're the head of a company, and we pollute the environment. And that's totally acceptable, but what you do, like mmm hmm

Stacy Robertson 30:00

Yeah, I feel like I represent kind of breaking some mold around. You know, yes, I have a master's degree in 20 years experience as a child and family therapist, and then yes, I'm a mother of, you know, I've given birth to eight children. And then yes, I do this. And so it's like, you know, it's kind of mind blowing to people when they're, you know, I can see him Just look at me and try to take it all in, like you said, What? You do what? And that's the fun part. But I also think that that's the important part is because, you know, with everything that's going on in the world right now to like, we put people in these boxes, and we stereotype them and we make assumptions about who they are and what they do. And the reality is that we're all just, we're humans, and, you know, we all have mothers, you know, we're all someone someone cares about us, you know, regardless of our skin color in our religion in our profession, and it's like, let's get past some of that it'sabout damn time Because of what you do for a living? Can you find joy in like companionship outside of this? Or does it make it more difficult to kind of have a real relationship? Yeah, and this is what is actually exciting. So I love this question. My partner and I are actually going to create a podcast together. So yes, I am actually in a relationship and have been for, I don't know, probably about six months now. And it was someone who I met as a client, they were a client first. And it's a very interesting dynamic. It's certainly, you know, as with any relationship, it takes work, and it takes, you know, being transparent and a lot of communication and, and I would say that there's a good chunk of people who are in the industry who are in relationships, but I feel like the perception outside of the industry is that is that women aren't in relationship or that they don't you know, Perhaps don't deserve a relationship. Or people say, well, who would date someone who, you know, does what you do. And that's why, you know, I'm going to be talking about that even a lot more and just, you know, some of the struggles that we have faced, and how we've gotten through those things and, and how we what kind of conversations that we have, you know, from trust, and then, you know, how do I keep things private? Also, so, there's an element with my work, right, that, you know, I'm not going to reveal everybody's personal information, who's my clients like discretion, and being discreet as a part of that process? But it works and it works really well. I mean, I'm thrilled, I feel like I met my my full name, like he's fucking awesome. And he, he loves what I do. And he, you know, he's supportive and in a lot of ways, and of course, he understands that side of me but also So if we talk about how, you know, when I, when I go to work, I go to work, and there's a kind of a uniform per se that I have, there's some mental emotional things that I do to kind of go into the office, so to speak, which is how I approach it. And then there's my personal life. And so certainly some of those things might overlap. But you know, him being now on the side of he's not on the client side anymore. And I told him when we first started dating and I was like, you better put on your seatbelt because now you're in my personal life and now you know, you're going to see like the whole behind the scenes and, and you know, who I am on the regular, you know, on a regular basis, not just who I am for this hour of time that I have, you know, with someone and it's been really good.

Nick VinZant 33:48 I want to thank Stacy so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also in Included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. And I'm really curious to let us know what you guys think about this. Because there's definitely some areas where you can feel one way one minute and feel completely the other way. The other minute. As you probably heard, she's also going to be starting a podcast of her own. So check back and we'll make sure that we update the RSS feed with the link to that podcast when it gets off the ground. I think. I think it's gonna be really interesting. I really do.

Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau

Are we alone in the universe? That's the question Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau spends every day trying to answer. In this in-depth interview, we talk finding life on other planets, Shadow Biospheres here on Earth and what happens if we find intelligent life - or it finds us. Then, because we all have that only sketchy cousin, we countdown the Top 5 Annoying Family Members.

Interview with Astrobiologist Dr. Graham Lau

Speakers

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Graham Lau: Astrobiologist / Cosmobiologist

Nick VinZant 0:14 Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're talking astrobiology and annoying relatives.

Dr. Graham Lau 0:24 Astrobiology is our quest to understand life. And that's all of life. So life here on Earth, the potential for life elsewhere, how life started here, how it's evolved here, whether or not we could find it elsewhere. The idea of this shadow biosphere, so a lot of our methods, in chemistry in biology are very much based on life as we know it. And so the question is, you know, could we be missing out? So much so that there could even be living things on earth that aren't life as we know it? And I love these ideas like you know, what else could there be? Could there be mineral life forms, could an entire planet be considered a living being, we're now thinking that there's at least something like 1.6 planets for every star. And so now we're looking at several hundreds of billions, maybe even a trillion planets in our galaxy alone, which means other galaxies might be also a very rich in planets. And if that's the case, then it really starts to feel like it would be a huge waste of space. If we're the only show in town.

Nick VinZant 1:25 I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. So I'm sure that all of us at some point in our lives have looked up at the night sky and wondered what else is out there? Is there any other life out there? And if there is, is it going to be like us? Or is it different in ways that we could never even imagine? Our first guest is one of the people leading that search for extraterrestrial life. And in that search, there's some really big questions about how life on Earth started. What exactly is life? Where could we find it in the solar system and even beyond? And then what happens? If we do find it? This is astrobiologists. Dr. Graham. Wow. So, astrobiology that's essentially looking for life on other planets, right.

Dr. Graham Lau 2:24 Youknow, I get that a lot. But it's more than that. Really. astrobiology I guess from a NASA they kind of have like, their standard way of explaining astrobiology is trying to understand the origins, evolution, and distribution of life in the universe. But when I think about astrobiology, what really hits me first is that astrobiology is our quest to understand life. And that's it. I mean, all of life. So life here on Earth, the potential for life elsewhere, how life started here, how it's evolved here, whether or not we could find it elsewhere. And it's a really important thing. You know, it's one of those deeper questions we've had with us. And, you know, before we started writing down our questions, you know, we wanted to know, like, you know, why are we here? What is this place? What is around us? Are we thinking? Are we alone? Is there more than what we see?

Nick VinZant 3:16 So do we know how life on Earth started?

Dr. Graham Lau 3:20 We definitely don't. And it is because there's a great field out there and the origin of life research, where people are working really hard to try to figure out how life might have started here on Earth. There's a question, you know, what was like brought here from elsewhere, like maybe from Mars or Venus maybe, and then crashed here and then start evolving? Or did like start here? And so people are doing experiments and modeling and trying to figure out whether or not life started here? If so, where and how, and when? Those are huge questions.

Nick VinZant 3:52

Do we have any kind of an answer like what's the best theory so far?

Dr. Graham Lau 3:57

That's a great question. We have some ideas right now. For instance, David Beamer and Bruce damer recently released a paper on their hot spring hypothesis for the origin of life, where they posit that life had to have dry land on Earth, specifically around hot springs, and hot spring environments with a lot of wedding and then drying cycles going back and forth, to allow for the chemicals of life. These biological molecules that form all of life as we know it for those molecules who have formed, they hypothesize that you need this dry, hot spring environment where they're wetting and drying going on back and forth. However, there are others who think that maybe life started on the bottom of the ocean around hydrothermal vents. Ever since the 1970s. We've been exploring these these events on the ocean floor where we're superheated seawater moving through the crust is bringing out a whole bunch of metals and other elements in a high tunnel. torture regime and making these big chimneys that we call black smokers. And so something maybe life could have started there, which also gives us good reason to then wonder if we could find life in some of the icy worlds of our solar system like Europa or Enceladus. But the true answer is we really don't know yet. You know, we have some ideas of what the you know, the early early days for life could have looked like, what kind of things might have happened along the way for creating the first cells and for for starting the process of having a genetic code that can evolve through time that that can replicate and make more molecules and can evolve through time, through billions of years to make us.

Nick VinZant 5:40

So I mean, if it essentially came from somewhere else, life would basically just hitch a ride on an asteroid. Or a meteor or whatever the correct word would be?

Dr. Graham Lau 5:51

Yeah, exactly. So there's this idea of panspermia, which has actually been with us for a very long time. The term to my knowledge was first coined by annex sagaris In ancient Greece, and the idea has been molded through time with us as well, but the idea of panspermia is that and then the word literally means seeds everywhere. And the idea is that maybe life could be seated on Earth from somewhere else and vice versa. In that case, so you know, we have these, you know, asteroid bombardment, that you know, when large things strike the earth or the moon or other worlds. Sometimes during that process, the rocks on that world can actually be launched into space due to the impact. And we've done lots of modeling to show that life as we know, it could survive inside of one of those rocks being launched off the planet, and then transported through space, and even through the process of crashing onto another planet. And so it is quite possible, but currently, we don't have any evidence that it's ever actually happened. But it is a really intriguing idea for us to study. Of course, you know, if panspermia did happen, we Still have the problem of the origin of life, it still had to start somewhere and somehow, but there are some out there who are wondering, maybe maybe life could have started in a more favorable environment on Mars, for instance. Or maybe in the early solar system, maybe Venus was a really cool place to be for living things. And maybe life came here, Mars, Venus. When people start talking about panspermia from outside of the solar system, it's still quite possible, but you start losing the probability because of the distances between stars, for things, things that have traveled through space through time.

Nick VinZant 7:33

When we are talking about the origin of life and going back millions of years or however long ago, were other planets in the solor system more habitable than Earth.

Dr. Graham Lau 7:45

Yes, that's one of the reasons I love Venus so much. It's such a beautiful world. It's Earth twin, really, as far as its size and its composition is concerned. Earth is far more dense, but Venus is still a very intriguing world. And early in the early in the solar system, Venus was very likely far more earth like than it is now. It would have been right in that beautiful area around a star called the Goldilocks zone where liquid water could survive on the surface. And there's some people out there who've done modeling to suggest there could have been oceans on Venus long ago. But Venus these past billion years or 500 million years or so has undergone not only a runaway greenhouse effect that has created this very thick atmosphere, the pressure of the surface of Venus is about 92 times more than the pressure we have here at sea level on Earth. So it's very thick. And because of the runaway greenhouse effect, sunlight gets absorbed and stuck inside just like you know, the greenhouse that we have going on right now, you know, climate here on Earth, and the warming of our planet. That warming happened on Venus, you know, in an amazing way to the surface of Venus is very close to 900 degrees Fahrenheit on average, which is pretty darn warm. And nothing that we know as far as life is concerned can currently survive on the surface of Venus. However, you know long ago maybe something did live there maybe maybe Venus had a biosphere long ago,

Nick VinZant 9:17

when you guys kind of classify things like what are what is considered life?

Dr. Graham Lau 9:23

It's kind of intriguing, right?We actually do not know what life is. Exactly. And so you'll hear people talk about this, they're gonna like, what is life is a huge question. And it's kind of important question for us to, to do astrobiology and to search not just for life as we know it somewhere else. But for us to even try to contemplate you know, life as we don't know like life is different than life here on earth. We kind of have to have a good working idea what life is. Now there have been several hundred, you know, suggestions for what a definition of life could be. Sometimes you might hear what's called the NASA definition of life. And that is that life is a self contained chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution. And it's a pretty good definition. But it misses out in a lot of ways. For instance, you know, if we create artificial intelligence, or if humans ourselves become a post biological being, and integrate ourselves into our computers, and our machines are refill alive, at that point, is that life? And that's a huge question. There could be forms of life out there that kind of really break through some of these definitions we've had. And you know, currently, a lot of us are learning a lot more about viruses right now. For instance, the virus has always been, you know, kind of on this fringe of trying to understand life. I remember as a kid, you know, we were told viruses are not alive. That's what the textbook said. And now, you know, I'm not actually sure myself I kind of think of viruses as as some part of life that they are some kind of Living biological machine. And so you know, it's intriguing. There's a lot of questions about what life really is. And if you really want to go off the deep end, then, you know, trying to figure out what life is It's hard enough but then trying to figure out what intelligence is, or even worse, what consciousness is. Those become some really huge questions.

Nick VinZant 11:19

I feel like you get a lot of headaches, do you get a lot of headaches? Just thinking about all this stuff?

Dr. Graham Lau 11:24

You know? I don't know. Like, it's actually it's kind of fun, right? Like, you can sit down and just for hours, just mall through the potential for, for what is life? What could be out there? You know, I grew up watching so much science fiction, and reading science fiction stories and playing science fiction video games. And I love these ideas like, you know, what else could there be? Could there be mineral life forms? Could an entire planet be considered a living being? Could there be living things that can survive in space and not only survive, but actually thrive in the environment of space? And there are so many questions about what's called

Nick VinZant 12:00

Howdy How do you study a place where you can go?

Dr. Graham Lau 12:04

Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, astrobiologists we all we all come to the field from, you know, different backgrounds. Some astrobiologists are studying oceanography and trying to better understand those hydrothermal vents. Some astrobiologists focus almost solely in the realm of microbiology, and they try to understand the evolution of various, you know, ways that that microbes have lived on earth and how they function through time and how their their enzyme to function through time. Some astrobiologists are doing a lot of planetary science, and they're trying to figure out where on the surfaces or the interiors of other worlds could we find life. Me Myself, I came from a geochemistry background. So originally, I started off studying biology and chemistry. I then spent some time studying astrophysics before finally jumping into my PhD in geology, where I really focused in geochemistry and mineralogy. And so for me, I was looking I'm not just to work on the paper right now, from some research back in 2014 already, where we went up to the Arctic to a place called Ellesmere Island. It's one of the farthest north land and NASA's on the planet to a place a valley called Borg fjord past where in this valley, there's a glacier. And on top of the glacier water coming up from the surface below, is coming out and depositing the large mass of yellow material on the ice. And that yellow material is sulfur. And so we've been studying the kinds of organisms that thrive in this sulfur material on top of the glacier, what they can teach us about software and its role in biology. What the mineralogy and geochemistry can tell us about not just that site and other polar environments, but also what we might find if we go out you know, to a world say, like Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, which has an icy surface, and a lot of sulfur on its icy surface. So, you know, can we use some of the tools we developed and the techniques and the knowledge we developed from this site here on earth and the Arctic and apply that to looking for life on Jupiter's moon Europa was a lot of us astrobiologists that are doing that kind of work. We're trying to understand what are the signs of life or bio signatures? What What, what diagnostic evidence is given to us from living processes that we can find?

Nick VinZant 14:34

What are some of the basic like building blocks, that a place needs to even have that is there some basic things that you have to have this you have to have that in order for life to start?

Dr. Graham Lau 14:45

You know, in the long history of us trying to define and characterize life? There are some of those key things we've come up with you know that that life has to have energy life has to have a metabolism. Life has to grow. It has to evolved, and from these kinds of things, and so had a very base, kind of understanding that that's kind of when we start looking for, for instance, with the Viking landers on Mars back in the 1970s. We sent them there they were the first and so far the only missions to Mars that were specifically looking for life. And on board, they had four biological tests. But in general, three of those biological tests were very much based on life as we know it, assuming that that life on Mars would be some kind of organism like we know here and would produce the same kinds of chemicals, if it was metabolizing material that we gave it. And unfortunately, we you know, we didn't have a positive confirmation. We do have a potentially questionable a result from one of the experiments that has never been confirmed. And so we'd be saying that we you know, we did not detect life because of that. And actually the next Mars rover from NASA project severence will be the next spacecraft on Mars, the next rover on Mars to actually look for signs of life after the Viking landers but when we start looking for these signs, you know what we're looking for, there's a lot of things we can look at, if we got really lucky, and we found something walking in front of our camera, you know, or like the little like, multi leg or if we were in the red with oceans with fins keep swimming by us. That'd be pretty cool, right? That's, that's a no brainer. You know, we we could look at that and say, hey, that's life. But you know, if we only have chemistry to look at say we're looking for signs of past life in a rock on Mars, then we might look at look at some of the chemical signatures that remain from living processes. When life is you know, metabolizing it can leave behind some signatures of those metabolisms. For instance, it can it can cause a differentiation in the isotopes that are present in a rock sample for us to study. We also can look for things like the left handedness and right handedness of molecules So it turns out in chemistry, just like you have your left hand, your right hand, and they're mirror images of each other. But if you lay them one on top of the other, your thumbs don't line up. So just like we have left hand and right hand that are mirror images, but aren't the exact same. There are molecule, many of them that are mirror images, and yet aren't the theme. And life as we know, it actually has a preference for the left handed or the right handed. For our amino acids. It's one way for our sugars, it's another way. And so we actually wonder, you know, could other life out there, if it is out there also have that selection for left handedness or right handedness in certain molecule? And so we can look for that. And there's actually a whole realm of these bio signatures, things that we're trying to trying to understand. Are they definitive signs of life? And if so, you know, can we find them on another world?

Nick VinZant 17:53

How do we, I mean, is there a chance though, that we're just testing in the wrong way, so to speak?

Dr. Graham Lau 17:59

Absolutely. A really cool paper came out some years back by Carol Cleveland and Chris Koba, where they hypothesize that there could be a shadow biosphere here on Earth, the idea of this shadow biosphere. So a lot of our methods, in chemistry in biology are very much based on life as we know it. And so the question is, you know, could we be missing out? So much so that there could even be living things on Earth, that aren't life as we know it? And so we actually don't see them because they're in this shadow biosphere that we're not observing. And it's a really good question, you know, and the truth is, we just don't know it's one reason why scientifically we want to be as agnostic as possible when it comes to you know, looking for these potential bio signatures. So that we you know, we are we are doing our due diligence, to try to look for any potential sign of life even if even if it's like as we don't know it.

Nick VinZant 18:56

To kind of maybe understand this I guess in like the dumb guy way. This rock is actually a living thing. And we just didn't realize it.

Dr. Graham Lau 19:05

But there are other things in nature that we haven't quite explained yet. So one of the best examples actually does come from Iraq. One of the examples they used in this original paper is desert varnish. So if anyone's ever gone out into, you know, a desert area like the American Southwest, or, you know, other desert regions around the planet, you might have noticed, you know, that some of the rocks have this dark coating on the outside. And indeed, many many ancient peoples indigenous peoples around around the globe, found those rocks and wood actually etch petroglyphs into the into that that that outer dark material, they realized they could just they could just chip that dark material away on the outside of these rocks. And we find a lot of ancient petroglyphs inside of this this rock varnish. But that rock varnish or desert varnish, as it's called, we still don't know entirely is that being caused by a biological phenomenon, organism are causing it, or if it's being caused by an inorganic process of chemistry alone. And so it's possible and this was partly a part of that original shadow biosphere idea was that maybe desert varnish is part of some unknown living process that we just don't know how to look at yet.

Nick VinZant 20:16

I mean, there seems to be and look, I think that any, anybody who's listened to this and any episodes where we talk to scientists, there's always a lot of kind of unknowns. But is this stuff that we can ever find out?

Dr. Graham Lau 20:27

It's a great question, right? I mean, it's like our physics right now. I mean, there's so much that we don't know about things like black holes, and what happens inside of them. We use our knowledge of science, science as a tool to help us better understand our place in the cosmos. But it will, you know, it will always have limitations based on our own abilities. And our science now is way different than science was 100 years ago. And likewise, 100 years from now, science may be very different as well, and we'll hopefully have better tools for better understanding the universe. Now very recently, we started using gravitational waves to look at other phenomena in the universe. And so when it comes to astrobiology and understanding, you know, if there could be some living things out there that we just don't know how to look for yet. Maybe you know, in the not too distant future, there'll be some new instrument that we develop, that allows us to see part of that shadow biosphere

Nick VinZant 21:22

right now, where is the main focus on where life could be in our solar system

Dr. Graham Lau 21:26

in our solar system, like, like I said, I love Venus. But Venus is no longer a great candidate, at least on the surface. However, there's a place about 51 kilometers above the surface of Venus, where some people are wondering, it actually has a temperature and pressure regime there that's about the same as the surface of Earth at the ocean. And so maybe there could be something living in the clouds of Venus, but you don't care as much, because right now Mars is super sexy. A lot of people are thinking about Mars as potentially once having Had life, we now know that Mars was very wet in the distant past, and then likely lost most of its atmosphere and oceans over time. But maybe maybe we'll find signs of past life or maybe even extant life or things that are alive right now on Mars. And so we're doing a lot of work there. Also, though, the icy worlds of our solar system are, you know, really these intriguing hotspots right now for us to try to figure out, you know, if life can originate inside of an ocean, you know, around the hydrothermal vent or at the bottom of an icy shell. You know, could there be living biospheres in spite of worlds, like Europa and Enceladus? And so can can we find signs of that life through either plumes of water coming out of these worlds, or by you know, sending a lander down to the surface and trying to look at some of the ice and those places are just so intriguing. I honestly I really love Europa. We have a mission coming up soon called Europa Clipper. It will go in orbit around Europa and help us study the surface a lot more. There is a Europa lander design right now, it's not actually a fully, you know, the mission hasn't been, you know, fully guaranteed yet, but it's a really cool idea. A lot of folks have worked on to try to bring a Europa lander together. There's a lot of potential in our solar system. But then, you know, people listening might know that we now know of a confirmed confirmed over 4000 exoplanets, worlds around other stars. Now, when I was a kid, I was born, we didn't have confirmation of any exoplanets. It wasn't until the 1990s, the early 1990s that we started making the first detections and now, now over 4000, it makes me think, in the next decade, or two or three, how many 10s of thousands of exoplanets we have to look at. And as we get better and better telescope technology, with the next generation of space telescopes, we might start being able to really look into the atmospheres of these worlds, and really, look Chemistry. And it might be that for the first detections of life come from that.

Nick VinZant 24:04 I

mean, for a lay person, it basically seems like it's a certainty somewhere else, right? Like, it's just a matter of finding it.

Dr. Graham Lau 24:11

Yeah, and I'm sure you've heard that phrase before, you know that if we are the only thing, you know, it sure is a waste of space. And that comes from just doing the math when you start looking at the numbers. And when people start, we're using that phrase, when you heard that phrase in the movie contact, for instance, or heard Carl Sagan or other popularizers of science mention that phrase. That was at a time we didn't have any known exoplanets. They were just talking about stars. They were talking about the hundred billions, maybe 400 billion stars in our galaxy, and the maybe hundred billion galaxies in the known universe. Those numbers alone start suggesting a lot when you look now, with these planet confirmations we've made already, we're now thinking that there's at least something like 1.6 planets for every star. And so now we're looking at several hundreds of billions, maybe even a trillion planets. In our galaxy alone, which means other galaxies might be also very rich in planets. And if that's the case, then it really starts to feel like it would be a huge waste of space. If we're the only show in town.

Nick VinZant 25:12

This is the thing that I always wonder about, because I mean, the numbers are so huge when we start talking about them. Is there any chance that I'll be really dramatic here? Like somebody just forgot to carry the one somewhere? And then reality? It's, it's just the solar system. And we accidentally messed up the math and there isn't all of this else. Because it's just seems to me to be so like mind bogglingly huge.

Dr. Graham Lau 25:38

Yeah, that's an interesting question. It kind of kind of takes my mind into a science fiction place, actually. And so imagine if you would you know that if you were born on a planet, with an atmosphere so thick that you couldn't see the sky and so that you never saw the stars. What would you think about yourself? in hand, as an astrobiologist, he was recently on my show asked me astrobiologists for NASA astrobiology. He has a recent book out called alien oceans, where he also suggested this thought experiment using Europa. So if you were an organism born into an ocean environment under a thick, icy crust, where you never saw the stars, what and you became intelligent, like, what would you think about yourself? What would your stories what would your science be? You know, for us, most of our scientific endeavor came from trying to better understand how our lives work here on Earth, and how the stars move in the skies above. You know, the earliest humans, you know, they were very in tune with the heavens above, they watched the movements of the stars. They watch these weird things that look like stars, but mooted in strange patterns that we now call planets. And they, they wanted to know like, what's going on up there? And so you know, our science now all the things that led us to now with our smartphones and in our telecommunications Technology and our Tesla that can go self driving down the highway and all these things that we're doing now with artificial intelligence. All of that comes from those early days when we just wanted to better understand, you know, how to better grow our crops, how to better prepare for the seasons, what's happening in the skies above us. And so, you know, if you were born into a world without the stars, I mean, imagine what that would be like, what would your science be, then? You know, would you ever would you ever want to leave your world? Would you ever want to launch a rocket? Would you have any reason to and I don't know the answer to that. And the interesting thing is, even if you forgot to carry a one, when it comes to the vastness of the cosmos out there, even if you miss the number two, you really wouldn't be that far off. The numbers become so staggeringly large.

Nick VinZant 27:50

What do you think happens when we find it?

Dr. Graham Lau 27:53

Yeah, you know what, for one thing, I will have a job forever.Every astrobiologist will be automatically employed. If we find alien life, you know, there have been different ideas. And a lot of people in science fiction and film have suggested that, you know, if we find alien life, that people will go, you know, lose their minds, and they'll be they'll be riots in the streets and, you know, then there's been a huge issue and then, like, religions won't know what to do with themselves, you know, people who are religious will know to do it themselves and things like that. And I think that's not right. I think that there might be some people who would handle it in a poor manner. But I think in general, I think all of us if we found alien life, I think it'd be a good moment for us to reflect together about you know, the fact that one we are no longer unique in the universe, that there is other life. But that, you know, we give us a chance to finally start saying, Hey, you know, we are part of this biosphere. This is our life. We now have another example to go study and learn more comparative biology. At that level would teach us so much about what life really is.

Nick VinZant 29:05

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. What is the Fermi Paradox?

Dr. Graham Lau 29:14

the Fermi paradox, as it's called, it comes from an Italian American, a physicist named Enrico Fermi, who was working on some of the early work with you know, nuclear energy and trying to better understand physics. Fermi was out to lunch with some other scientists and, and they were discussing, you know, what we were just discussing, they were discussing the vastness of the cosmos. And Fermi brought up the issue, that if there is the alien life out there, if we can just assume, just counted as RIT that there is alien life out there and it's everywhere, all these other planets in our, in our galaxy, if there is alien life out there, and it is possible to travel faster than light and where are the aliens and Then the question then becomes, you know, because the stars are so far apart, but if we've ever learned to travel at the speed of light or faster, they would change the rate in which we can get these other stars. And if that was possible, why aren't there aliens here right now? Why aren't they visiting us? And so in this in this issue, you know, maybe there, maybe there aren't beings that can travel faster than light, maybe travel is very slow for everyone. And it does take 10s of thousands or millions of years. But let's assume that even if, even if it took, you know, a million years or more to travel between stars, fill in the history of our of our galaxy of our solar system. There's Philbin billions of years. And so even then, some beings should have been able to make it here by now. But then we have other issues. And maybe we are one of the first maybe there are other biospheres out there right now. But maybe we're one of the first ones to actually gain a level of intelligence to start asking in our selves why we're here. Another issue could be the kinds of stars that are out there. So when a star forms, it forms from these large clouds of gas, dust. And a lot of the material in there, you might have heard that a lot of our our elements of our bodies come from the nuclear engines inside of stars. That famous phrase that we are starstuff. And this comes through a process called nucleosynthesis. And it's how elements are made inside of stars. But in the very early universe in the early history of the galaxy, the earliest stars would have been almost all hydrogen all helium, there wouldn't have been enough time to make a lot of heavier elements. But as those early stars start fusing, they start making heavier elements, they explode, they push other elements out into the universe. Then other stars come around, they take in some of that material, and then they start making heavier elements. It might be that in the very, you know, the first few bits years of the history of the universe, the history of our galaxy, that there just wasn't enough heavy element material inside of planets for life to arise. Maybe life requires some of this enrichment of heavier elements. And so maybe we needed stars, like our son to make living things. And if that's the case, maybe younger stars right now are even more enriched in some of these heavy elements. And maybe they're even faster to have life, you know, originate and evolve and do some cool things. You know, we just don't know. You know, but the other the idea of Fermi's paradox of why aren't they here yet? It's an interesting one to throw your head at. And I'll throw out another potential solution. And it's what's one that you'll see pop up a lot in, in various sci fi and stuff like that. And this one is kind of that that's the cosmic Zoo idea, like a menagerie where maybe there are aliens out there everywhere, and they're all watching us. They know We're here they've been watching us evolve through time. And maybe they just think that we're not ready yet to meet them. And that'd be kind of weird too. I mean, but not unlike what we do in zoos where we you know, we put animals in the in the cages or behind glass so that we can observe them you know, maybe the Earth right now. It's just an off limits area area for aliens to watch us.

Nick VinZant 33:22

What would be stranger if we meet alien life and it's nothing like we've seen in the movies, or we meet alien life and they look exactly like us.

Dr. Graham Lau 33:33

Oh, I love that. That was a Gene Roddenberry around the time of Star Trek next generation was trying to explain you know, like, Why are all Why are all the characters humanoid? I mean, we see that a lot in science fiction. You know, a lot of the characters look very humanoid like us. And you know, a lot of that comes from storytelling, because when it comes down to it, a lot of our alien science fiction isn't really about the aliens. It's about telling human stories through the alien. In reality, you know, a lot of scientists, we really don't have a lot of reason to think that other things would look like us, at least not large multicellular organism, you know, at the salt at the smaller scale, maybe there's lots of things that look like other bacteria that we have here. Maybe cells are very common for life, you know that that seems like it could be likely that maybe the cell is a common unit for life, across the universe. And so maybe that will look similar. And maybe we'll have some things happen. Similarly, maybe organelle, for instance, will happen inside of some cells. So maybe things that have things like chloroplasts or things like our mitochondria, similar organ organelles inside of cells might have occurred. But when it comes to all the many steps that made these larger scale things like you see like our fungi and hummingbirds and humans and horses and all of this stuff, you know, that's, it was a lot of steps to get to where we are now to make this happened. And so we don't have as much of a reason to think that if we met aliens, they would look exactly like us. Especially if you look through like the history of, you know, animals on earth, if you look over the past 500 million years, for most of that period of time, the large scale organisms did not look like you know, us on an eighth and monkeys, they look a lot more like dinosaurs. And so you know, maybe maybe if large scale things do look more like more more like life on Earth, then maybe dinosaur like life is far more likely than human like life. But it does raise a good question. Maybe there are convergent, you know, scenarios in evolution that do drive similar features to occur. So for instance, having appendages makes a lot of sense. appendages allow you to find other ways to move, to get food to fight off predators to be a predator. And then, you know, like our hands have the digits on the end of them that allow us to actually interact with our environment in very special ways. And that can be a very interesting thing to have happen. convergently in evolution when it comes down to like the age looking structure of our bodies in our two arms, two legs, you know, the whole the whole structure of us. I don't think it's as likely. But I think it'd be pretty groovy if we actually met other human like organisms.

Nick VinZant 36:16

Best place right now. Like if you were a betting man, where would you bet we're gonna find it first.

Dr. Graham Lau 36:24

If I had to throw down money, and I'm gonna get some flack for this, from my my astrobiologists, friends because everyone has their favorite place. If I had to throw down money, I would say it's gonna come from exoplanets outside of the solar system, I think outside of our solar system, you know, even though I love Mars, I think we definitely should go there. I want to see humans go to Mars, to settle and to explore and to learn more about that world as well as ourselves. Like I said, I love Venus. I really love the icy moons Europa, Enceladus, Triton, Titan, but honestly with the the S Evolution of our telescope technology. As we're discovering more and more about exoplanets, our models are getting better. I think, you know, it's very likely even in our lifetimes that we're going to find potential signs of a biosphere on an exoplanet.

Nick VinZant 37:15

I hope it's gonna be I mean, I know it's not an exoplanet, but I hope somehow it's Pluto. Just as a way to get back for everybody for knocking it off of the planet status.

Dr. Graham Lau 37:24

Yeah, I mean, Pluto is an interesting little thing, right? Like, you know, even before the quote unquote demotion, in 2006, when Pluto was renamed to a dwarf planet status, even then we knew something weird was going on. On the surface of Pluto, we had Hubble Space Telescope images showing us that the surface wasn't all one persistent kind of color, which told us that there was some weird chemistry going on. So with New Horizons flying by in 2015, and just these remarkable images that came back with all the data that came back of that weird modeled ice surface With so much variation, it was just stunning. And so, you know, some people talk about the potential for an ocean inside of Pluto. I don't know if that's likely I don't think it is personally. But maybe in the distant past long ago, who knows? But it'd be pretty cool if that works. Newtonian is out there.

Nick VinZant 38:18

Best Movie about aliens?

Dr. Graham Lau 38:21

And,well, I do love science fiction that tries to get it right. I really enjoyed Europa Report. I love on science fiction channels to try to figure outyou know, what would alien life really be like?However, to me, the two films because they both hold so much importance for me. One is the film The thing based on the short story Who goes there? And that one's important because it makes us question you know, what if there is really bizarrely different alien life that can actually consume and replicating life as we know it, and then the One is the movie alien, Ridley Scott's alien, such an incredible film. And honestly that the biology presented in that film this idea of the these eggs that hatch these face huggers that then implant the host fee inside the host face this growing creature that data becomes you know more of who pops out. I really love alien. I love the whole Alien franchise. I've been a huge fan since I was a kid. So I think aliens the Nick VinZant 39:28 coolest. What do you think about like people who do the Alien Encounters thing and say like I saw an alien. I was like, What do you when you hear that stuff? What do you kind of think?

Dr. Graham Lau 39:39

First off, I never want to question someone's belief or their experience. If someone feels that they really experience something if they really believe it. I don't want to call it a question that belief or experience, but you know when it comes to science and how science works and why scientists are powerful, is that you know, science is look At evidence, looking at the data that are out there, and then formulating your opinions about what you actually saw what you observed what you experienced. But the important thing in the sciences is that it has to be something like what your conclusion for it to be really be accepted, has to be the exact same conclusions something else someone else would make, based on those theme information. And so, you know, I personally like the nighttime sky with the idea of UFOs I've seen things in the nighttime sky before that I can't personally explain. And even though I know that scientifically, we can explain about 90 or 95% something like that of all the all the claimed observations of UFOs there's still some small number that we just don't understand. However, jumping from you know, I don't know what that is, the whole way to well, it must be aliens is a pretty big jump. Because there's a lot of other things that could be first, that we should actually maybe research and try to figure out No. And there are people who are really certain there are aliens here right now. And one of the biggest questions I always have for them. If that's the case, if aliens can travel through these vast cosmic distances between stars, no, they have the technology to make those transits to hide their spaceships from us so well, to even be down here and walking amongst us. If that were the case, then why are they so bad at doing it? What Why do we see them every now and then if they were that good, we wouldn't ever see them.

Nick VinZant 41:34

That's pretty much all the questions I got what's coming up next for you, man. What research are you working on that kind of stuff.

Dr. Graham Lau 41:41

So many cool things. So I am working on a paper right now on some structures and geological structures at my field site in the Arctic, that are relevant to Mars. So these structures are very rich in iron and sulfur. They're their structures we called Gosselin's and they might be really important for our future after bye illogical studies on Mars. I'm currently doing a lot of science communication work do marble space. So I do a lot in trying to find cooler ways to share science with the public. I have my show it's asked an astrobiologist. We're funded through NASA astrobiology and we have a new astrobiologist on talking with me every month about their research about astrobiology, we know in the field and also talking about how to get into astrobiology as a career. And then also, from our I have a large number of research associates, interns, who are working with me in both science communication, as well as a project for the Center for light detection out of NASA Ames, where we're developing a knowledge base of bio signatures for astrobiologists to come together as a community and say, you know, what are the signs of life that we're looking for out there.

Nick VinZant 42:53

I want to thank Dr. Lau so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have a link to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we've also included his information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. He's got a really cool show too, if you're really interested in learning more about astrobiology and how to become an astrobiologist, we've also included a link to his show on the RSS feed that's along with this podcast. There's just I think that's just a huge question for us, right. It's something that everybody at some point in their lives has think thought about. Are we alone?

Hand Model Talia Wray

From movies and TV, to social media and magazines, you've seen her hands everywhere. Now, meet the women behind them. Hand Model Talia Wray joins us for a behind the scenes look at hand modeling, how to care for your hands and what makes her hands so in demand. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fingers.

Interview with Hand Model Talia Wray

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

hands, people, finger, model, pinkies, long, ring finger, skin tone, wave, job, feel, nails, questions, commercial, product, world, thought, big, legs, nice

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant: Profoundly Pointless Host

Talia Wray: Hand Model and Actor

Nick VinZant  00:15

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're gonna talk modeling with a professional hand model and then count down the top five fingers.

Talia Wray  00:27

So that was really like the first time that I was booked for like a hand modeling job is like you don't want to be distracted from the product. So something has to come in that is cohesive and has like this rhythm. And people assume that hand models have certain direct can take certain direction and have like an elegance. The leg and foot job is the same client for me and I actually been looking under my feet for To see if anything has come up. And I haven't got anything weird yet, but I know that it's a really big thing.

Nick VinZant  01:10

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So real quick if you're in a safe position to do this. Take a look at your hands. Have you ever really thought about your hands? Have you ever really looked at somebody else's hands? Have you ever really thought about the hands that you see in commercials, and TV and movies and magazines and all that kind of stuff? Our first guest has a fascinating story into just how much thought companies put in to the hands that you see all over the place. And it's just this it's such an interesting look into the behind the scenes world that I find just just fascinating. This is to Talia Wray. She's a hand model with close up models. How did you become a hand model?

Talia Wray  02:07

I started off doing commercial work and acting. And the casting directors always kind of have us put our hands up to our face. And there's a couple myths about why that is. The one that I heard that I like and stuck with was that somebody got booked for a McDonald's commercial and didn't have a Pinkie. So the casting directors always asked to see our hands and I guess they just noticed that I had really nice hands and brought me in to do a casting for Samsung. I ended up booking that commercial and ended up doing like almost every product they came out with for a couple years. So that was really like the first time that I was booked for like a hand modeling job officially and got into that world.

Nick VinZant  03:00

Did you ever think to yourself before this, like, Oh, I have nice hands? I mean, was it something that you had ever thought of before?

Talia Wray  03:08

Yeah, um, actually, my mom made me aware that like, My hands were very unique. And also my dad tried to get me into piano. So the whole thing was like, kind of having like the really long slender knuckle list kind of fingers that were really like appealing to just my parents. So when, when that was brought to my attention, I was just kind of made aware of it, then it's like, everywhere you go, kind of like the nail lady is always complimenting like, your nail beds and like, my nails are very strong and they grow long, naturally. You tend to get a lot of compliments, but I just never knew what to do with them. You know, I was just kind of like, Okay, cool. Never thought about making money.

Nick VinZant  03:56

Yeah, I would imagine like, hey, you've got great eyelashes. Like, oh, okay, what do you do? Whatdo I do with that?

Talia Wray  04:04

I just kind of took the compliments.

Nick VinZant  04:06

We kind of you talked about this a little bit but what about your hands? Like why? Why are they nice?

Talia Wray  04:13

Yeah, I think me knowing and like being in the world now for a while I know it's like this like smooth even skin tone. It's that the knuckles and the the skin where your nail starts. There's like no discoloration, it's just all the way down is like even then, like this skin tone is like a perfect medium color. So it's kind of like you would represent the medium girls then it's the nail bed is really long and flat. That's like something very appealing to I would say like nail polish companies and like higher ends like Chanel Unlike how they sell perfume you would see like long nails and if you look on trends with like, like household products and like whatever you're trying to sell it kind of goes with like either an everyday kind of look of a hand which would go with like a shorter nail and like that luxurious brand that might choose like to have longer nails or just like very well manicured.

Nick VinZant  05:24

When you talk about the medium skin tone, we're talking about like essentially for any ethnicity in between the lightest skin tone of that ethnicity and the darkest skin tone of that right?

Talia Wray  05:37

Exactly, you know, a while back it was only really like lighter skin tones, and they were een like airbrushing or spraying their skin to be medium or dark. If if like that a product appealed to like those clients. So I would hear a lot that like Like these white and Asian girls would work as like the medium or dark girls too, because they just didn't want to pay or use darker skin tone models. But nowadays, it's like fashionable to have every color of the rainbow. But my Yeah, my skin tone is like that is like the medium, but I could also go dark, because I tan very quickly and easily. So I can definitely like range between medium and dark.

Nick VinZant  06:29

Has that been, I mean a struggle in terms of like getting more diversity in that for like a product? Well, no, you don't have to have a white hand holding this. You can have a dark black hand or a Hispanic and has that changed recently.

Talia Wray  06:43

You know, I see that there are prejudices between like, I probably would never do certain things like I just know it. I would never work for certain people because like if you see the forecasting of like, just How they shoe or, or what they're trying to sell to, it's not going to be like a demographic, they don't want to sell to people who look like me, basically. Sometimes it's also like, I'm matching the spokesperson of their, their commercial, like, if my hand is going to be Kerry Washington, it would just be whatever's closest to her skin tone. So it's very on trend of like what's happening in the fashion world and like, who they're selling to and who they want to buy their products. So there is definitely prejudice in that regard. It's definitely become more popular to have like a medium skin tone. And there's a big disadvantage. I would say for people with darker skin tone.

Nick VinZant  07:48

Do you feel like that's fair? Do you feel like that's unfair? Is that just that's just how it is?

Talia Wray  07:53

I have my own opinion, but I would say that I understand from like a marketing standpoint, when you look at everybody on there. have, like their diversity board. Like, there's not even a lot of women and women of color. So I think it doesn't even make sense. Like, if you want to change an ad, you have to kind of change what you're doing within the company. So I feel like it definitely is reflective of what's happening in the world. And for that reason, I don't get offended because if you don't, if you don't want me to be part of the project, then I don't really want to be part of it either.

Nick VinZant  08:30

In terms of like getting jobs, is it a subjective thing? Like one client will say, Oh, you have nice hands. And another client will say no, I don't like her hands. Or is it pretty much if you have it, you have it,

Talia Wray  08:40

you know, I know that I have. So I'm pretty confident. But I know that I kind of appeal to everyone looking for my like, if somebody's looking for my skin tone. I feel like I'm really at the top of my game with like, the top And models I've done every job that I kind of wanted to do when I started when I, when I even fantasize and like got my first job I started thinking like, what is it like to be like the top hand model? And you think of like certain people like Adele and Christina and certain people who had just done every job out there. And I thought to myself, what what would they be doing? And like, what are the jobs that they booked and I kind of imagined on my own like, what are the what are the products I'm using? What is it that I want to see myself ads and I just started booking those jobs and I would see some I would see some emails as well about me and like people are very enthusiastic when they see my hands, but I have had clients say in front of me Wow. Like your your nail bed isn't as good Flat as like hers, like a girl sitting directly next to me. You see that right in front of you? Yeah, I had a client do that to me once. And she was just like, so upset that my nail bed wasn't completely flat, and it had a curve to it. And it was for a nail polish job, I guess.

Nick VinZant  10:23

I mean, do you get offended by just the sheer rudeness of it, or is it?

Talia Wray  10:27

So personally, I was I was offended because I was just like, wow, it's something I really can't change. And I don't even know what to say to you because it's so rude.

Nick VinZant  10:38

Yeah, what are you gonna do?

Talia Wray  10:39

Yeah. And I immediately told my agent because I was so upset because it was actually like one of my dream clients. And I had worked with them with a different creative team separately and like, love that team. But when I met her, I really never wanted to work for that company again.

Nick VinZant  10:59

Can, can you like become a good hand model? Can you do something else to the hand itself?

Talia Wray  11:08

Like physically? I want to say no, some people ask for certain positions. Like, for instance, with Samsung, a lot of the jobs I were doing, I was doing, I was under a table of this set. So it's like I have my hands up and I have to do things and I can't even see the screen and I have to hit certain marks and you just kind of have to like have like just the sense of space and direction and a lot of dance training actually helped me with this, like hitting my marks and being fluid with my hands. So there's certain things direction wise I can take but I don't think that like hand modeling is something that like everyone can do because some hands are just definitely not as a as appeasing as like others are.

Nick VinZant  11:59

It's one of those things that as soon as you notice, you really notice

Talia Wray  12:03

Yeah,you just can't stop looking.

Nick VinZant  12:07

No, I'm looking at some of your pictures. I'm like, oh you do have really nice hands. Looking at my hands, I feel self conscious.

Talia Wray  12:16

Yeah, it really it sucks when you become aware of it, but in my daily life, I don't really let it get in my way.

Nick VinZant  12:24

What do you do to take care of your hands.

Talia Wray  12:28

I've been doing a lot of hand masks which are really nice and they just feel really great and they they help like maintain just like the smoothness just like how you would kind of take care of your face. I've been trying to treat my hands the same way and like use similar products on my face in my hands. Maintaining just like my cuticles are really important cuticle oil, cuticle oil and like cutting the cuticles, I would say are the best things. You can Do and I just love a good shaping. And I only kind of let certain people shape my nails because it can just really take a long time to grow out.

Nick VinZant  13:15

are your hands insured?

Talia Wray  13:17

They're not but I've been trying. I've actually been looking into doing it and I should have just done it so many times I've been thinking about it a lot, because it does pay my rent.

Nick VinZant  13:29

Are there things that you like, Oh, I, I avoid doing that. Right. Like I imagine you don't go rock or something.

Talia Wray  13:36

Yeah, so there are things that like, I get a little nervous about, like, my roommate bought me rollerblades and I was like if I fall because I also do leg modeling and foot modeling. So I'm like if I fall on any part of my body like it would take months to repair it like I just don't think it's a good idea or bowling could be really like difficult. I'm a shoe So, I don't really care. I don't really like pay attention too much about like the knives and things. So I like in the kitchen, but I know people who don't cook and like will not touch knives. And they're just really sticklers for it. But yeah, there are things that I'm I'm made aware of, but I pretty much do everything.

Nick VinZant  14:22

Essentially, how much do you get paid for a shoot?

Talia Wray  14:25

Um, I get paid anywhere from like 500 to I think my highest job was about 2500 were really a yeah whoa

Nick VinZant  14:41

oh, a day

Talia Wray  14:43

Yeah.

Nick VinZant  14:44

Wow. And I mean, it was that a that's a day like I'm there the full day or Hey, here I am. I'm gone in 10 minutes kind of thing.

Talia Wray  14:52

Well, it's like some jobs. I've done like five minutes of work and I've been sitting around all day. Some jobs like, I'll literally shoot for two hours, and then I can go. So it really depends. But some days could be long some days could be like 8 to 12 hours. So it'll, it'll really feel like you're you're shooting like a whole campaign or commercial for you know, full body models is about the same time.

Nick VinZant  15:23

I mean, at that rate, so this this can be a full time living then right?

Talia Wray  15:26

It can, um, I don't know a lot of people who only do it, but I do know people who only do it and have made like a lifestyle out of it. A lot of the people who are like newly in the game, also do it hand in hand with like, their regular modeling or just like side hustles and stuff, but like there's I definitely do other things, but it definitely pays my rent.

Nick VinZant  15:54

Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions? The first one is do you hate Seinfeld?

Talia Wray  16:03

Wow, because of that hand. That hand.

Nick VinZant  16:06

Yeah. Yeah,

Talia Wray  16:09

I thought it was really funny. I've been sent it a couple times. And I obsessed because of how excited I was when I first booked my job and first like, got into it and like, started dreaming up all of these jobs that I wanted to do. I got really excited. So I understand where it comes from. And I grew up watching Seinfeld so No, I do not hate it.

Nick VinZant  16:33

Who is it, and go ahead and say if that this is you? Who has the greatest hands of all time? Is there somebody they'd be like? That's, that's the ultimate there.

Talia Wray  16:44

Oh my god. of all time. I would say my friend Adele has pretty great hands. She does like she has a fair skin tone. And when I started. I was like, if I meet her and when I meet her, and if I work with her, I know like, I've made it. And we ended up working together last years. So that was like a pretty big deal for me. She doesn't even know this story. And so she's probably gonna think this is so funny because we're friends now. But for me, she's like the ultimate hand model

Nick VinZant  17:24

in the parts modeling world who is the cool kid of parts modeling High School, the hands, feet legs, who's like the cool kid.

Talia Wray  17:37

I thought it was legs. I think legs are pretty impressive. And everyone is has this whole thing about height, and like seeing women's legs is really sexy. So I thought legs were like the ultimate part. So I would say the cool kid his legs.

Nick VinZant  17:58

Now you do that too. Does one pay than the other.

Talia Wray  18:01

So I just, I, this was my first leg job that I got. Was this not this year? Yeah. Was it the beginning of 2020? rip? And so I started doing leg modeling. Do they pay more? No, not necessarily. It depends on the clients though. But hopefully from these photos, I'll start booking more legs and we'll, we can talk about that later.

Nick VinZant  18:31

Is the foot modeling one though, does that kind of end up? Because people have a thing with feet? Right? Does that lead to some weird places?

Talia Wray  18:40

Ah, you know, I, the leg and foot job is the same client for me and I actually been looking under my feet photos to see if anything has come up. And I haven't got anything weird yet, but I do know that it's a really big thing. And industry like the whole foot fetish thing. So it hasn't come up yet.

Nick VinZant  19:06

coolest product you've ever modeled

Talia Wray  19:09

iPhone.

Nick VinZant  19:10

Yeah, that's that's got to be a good one too, right? Yeah.

Talia Wray  19:13

And I've heard like the, the, the clients that I've worked with on the job like doing my nails and makeup said that they remember like when Steve was like on this set of those commercials and I just like Wish I could have been there for that. But yeah, iPhone was like, for me fell big.

Nick VinZant  19:34

Where have I probably seen your hands and not known it?

Talia Wray  19:38

Maybe food commercials like dunking french fries and ketchup.

Nick VinZant  19:45

Oh, yeah. I guess you don't think about all the times you just see pictures of people's hands.

Talia Wray  19:51

Exactly. Because there's so many McDonald's commercials that are only hands and you don't even realize it.

Nick VinZant  19:59

So they won't use them. But it's it's hardly ever the actual person I see on TV.

Talia Wray  20:04

Oh, no. Yeah, they would they would almost Oh wait, I think as something as big as McDonald's and when they're doing food close ups, they always hire hand models.

Nick VinZant  20:17

Why do you I mean, I guess why is that? Am I going to be turned off if I see.

Talia Wray  20:22

So that's what is like you don't want to be distracted from the product. So something has to come in that is cohesive and has like this rhythm. And people assume that hand models have certainty dirt can take certain direction and have like an elegance rather than like models who can just who Strike a pose or like a lot of people complain that models don't take direction well, but I think it's kind of hard for a full body model to not be able to take direction well and get jobs but I don't really know why that a They would do it other than like it's more appeasing and it just doesn't pull focus from the food. If you see something that is off about the hand,

Nick VinZant  21:09

Do you have good dexterity? Like do you have to be able to put this finger in this position and this finger in that position?

Talia Wray  21:16

I found a lot of times, I struggled in the beginning because of so many positions that were uncomfortable to me, and that I couldn't even that were just so unnatural. So it is kind of uncomfortable to the point where you're just kind of like you, you think like you want to reposition your fingers like surgically

Nick VinZant  21:42

Did somebody come in and like move like no, I need your left index to be open. 

Talia Wray  21:47

They will really almost always they'll be like we need it like this. We like it like this or just like literally pick up and move my finger and just be like, stay there and take the photo. Which can be irksome, because for me I'm just like, do my job. But I get it. I get it and I have been better at looking and noticing that everything is kind of like my fingers are evenly spaced and like looks pretty.

Nick VinZant  22:17

What finger is the best finger?

Talia Wray  22:21

The middle finger haha

Nick VinZant  22:23

It's definitely the most it, definitely has the most wide array of uses.

Talia Wray  22:32

But actually the most important finger I would say is that, yeah, the thumb is probably always in use, just like when you're holding your phone. It's always in the front. The thumb is very important. I think if you don't have a thumb you can you basically can't do the job

Nick VinZant  22:50

Now you've done some acting work too, right? Yeah. Is that is that kind of the the future career path or what's the What did what are you going to be? What is the main goal? I guess?

Talia Wray  23:02

Yeah. So my main goal is definitely in the acting world. I like being expressive and like writing my own work and like working with other actors. I really like just love storytelling. I think the part of the reason why I do it is a therapeutic aspect. I think it's very lovely to watch people creatively, emo and be able to get something back from that. So that is my main passion in life in the future in the present.

Nick VinZant  23:41

Yeah, it certainly seems like it would be good exposure.

Talia Wray  23:45

Oh, for sure. For sure,

Nick VinZant  23:55

 if I send you a picture of my hands, will you tell me what's wrong with my hands?

Talia Wray  24:00

Oh my god haha Okay, let me know when it shows up. Okay. Okay!

Nick VinZant  24:14

my hands are okay they're not bad

Talia Wray  24:10 I'm surprised to hear so well manicured during an epidemic or pandemic or life crisis, whatever we're dealing with now. I would say are you purposely making like this? Almost like the Star Wars symbol?

Nick VinZant  24:37

No.

Talia Wray  24:39

Okay because I was gonna say this spacing is just a little off between the the index and the middle finger or the ring finger in the middle finger.

Nick VinZant  24:51

Oh it does now I'm looking at it in real life it does kind of come apart. Are my knuckles bad?

Talia Wray  25:04

 I would say. I would say you could probably work like dad jobs they have like these jobs that you're like clearly like it's a dad feel like

Nick VinZant  25:14

that's a huge compliment and crush my soul at the same time.

Talia Wray  25:21

Cuz I'm saying, like, you look like you have like these like hard working hands like home improvement hands. Yeah, like I feel like those are like the kind of jobs that I would shake your hands for.

Nick VinZant  25:35

I felt Okay, I took it as like I'm getting old, because I'm at that age where I start to feel like I'm getting old.

Talia Wray  25:42

No, I mean, young people do the dad jobs too. So you know.

Nick VinZant  25:48

Ah, I feel good. I feel better about myself.

Talia Wray  25:51

Yeah, it's weird when you think when you notice it and then you kind of think about it.

Nick VinZant  25:55

Um, that's that's pretty much all the questions. I got what's coming up next for you.

Talia Wray 26:00

Well, I say with my agency, Close Up Models in LA, we're doing a bunch of different campaigns for holiday coming up. So I'm really excited to go back home and start doing that. So when I get back, I'm going to be shooting a bunch of stuff for holidays.

Nick VinZant  26:20

I want to thank Talia so much for joining us if you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And I'd also like to thank close up models for helping connect us with Talia. I find this whole thing just endlessly fascinating, because it's definitely to me one of those things that you never think about until you notice it, and then you really notice it. We've also included both tullius information and close updadf models information in the RSS feed that's on this podcast. If anybody's interested in this I'll put up a picture of my hands just so you can tell. Have some perspective about what we're talking about.

Climatologist Dr. Gavin Schmidt

Climatologist Dr. Gavin Schmidt is the Director of the NASA Goddard Institute of Space Studies. In a wide-ranging interview, we talk Climate Change, melting ice sheets, fossil fuels, the impact of COVID-19 and why people in movies don't listen to scientists. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Cookies.

Interview with Dr. Gavin Schmidt on Climate Change

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant - Profoundly Pointless Host

Dr. Gavin Schmidt - Director of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies

Note: Transcription is not 100% accurate. Please consult the episode for exact quote

Nick VinZant  00:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant, coming up in this episode climate and cookies,

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  00:20

Climate it's everything that we see outside. And it's statistics and its processes. You know, it's the atmosphere is the ocean, it's the, the ice that floating on the Arctic is the ice sheets, you know, the trajectory we're on is putting us on a course for a climate on earth that has not been seen in millions of years. The scope of working for NASA allows you to think about things in a much, much broader context, then, then you would you'd be able to do in any other settings.

Nick VinZant  01:01

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. This is a really special episode for us. And I just want to start it off by saying thank you to everybody who has taken time to listen to the show. The guests that have come on the show, people who have commented, we really appreciate every single one of you. This is our 100th episode. And we definitely got farther than we ever thought that we could. And it's it's all because of our listeners and our guests. And I just want to say right at the beginning that we really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much. This is also a really important episode for us because we're going to be talking about something that is a huge issue now and is going To be a huge issue for the foreseeable future, climate change, what is going to be happening to our planet and what is happening with our planet right now? Our first guest is the perfect person to talk to about this. This is Dr. Gavin Schmidt. He's a climatologist, a climate modeler, and he is the director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies. When we talk about climate, like I think I know what we're talking about when we someone says climate but what are we really talking about?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  02:37

It's everything that we see outside. And it's statistics and its processes. You know, it's the atmosphere, it's the ocean, it's the, the ice that floating on the Arctic is the ice sheets, the deep oceans, it's the stratosphere, and all the things that kind of intersects between all those realms. To give us the patterns of weather and climate, we can understand in a more colloquial sense

Nick VinZant  03:07

Climate is obviously that that's very different than weather, right?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  03:11

So I think people get a little confused about the difference between weather and climate when it comes to forecasting. And, and they see the limits to weather forecasting. So we can't we can't make good weather forecasts beyond 10 days and not much, much beyond that. And, and they think, Well, you know, but the weather time is the same. So we can't make climate forecasts but but we're trying we're doing something very different or making a climate forecast. What we're doing there is is trying to say how the the average things are going to change how the patterns are going to change, not not the specifics of any one storm or or one hurricane or one weather system. And so the predictability and climate comes from a very different place. So the predictability of climate comes from the fact that you know, energy is conserved mass is conserved, that we understand radiation in and out of the atmosphere. Whereas, you know, the predictability of weather comes because we can, you know, we can track you know that like these big, Eddie's these big turbulent Eddie's in the atmosphere from one day to another, which is a very different kind of skill, but they are very related. I mean, we don't make tire predictions without including all of the weather. inside those those calculations. You talked about all the things that kind of go into into climate is there one that influences it, more than any of the others, like this thing has the biggest impact that doesn't really make much sense to us, because the interesting things about the climate are the emergent properties of what happens when it gets going, you know, the interactions between the ocean And the ice and the atmosphere, the wave patterns, the the variations, the El Nino patterns that you see in the Pacific, all of those things emerge because of the connections between the different realms and the different processes. So you know, if you take one thing out, then it's a very different system. And it has different properties. But we're really interested in the properties of the whole system. And it turns out that almost all of the interesting ones are coupled in, in various, sometimes subtle ways between all those different avenues.

Nick VinZant  05:37

So we're recording this towards the end of May right now, what are you kind of seeing in terms of changes related to COVID-19? What kind of an impact is that having?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  05:48

Right, so so what's happening so basically a lot of activities that would have taken place or not taking place Now, some of those activities would have used fossil fuels, right? driving around in cars, public transport, all of those things have gone way down. So that means that the the emissions from those activities have gone down. We're also the air pollutants from those activities have gone that we're also not doing some things that we would have done otherwise. Right? So for instance, in this time of year, quite often in places like California, they do controlled burns of forest areas to try and avoid larger burns later on the season. Okay, we're not doing that. So there are there are some odd things that are happening in terms of the atmospheric composition, emissions that impact climate and air quality that are quite noticeable right now. So for instance, you know, air quality has improved, you know, pretty much across the board LA, New York. northeast northern Italy, Europe, China, India have all had huge reductions in the amount of air pollutants. And that's mainly from car driving. But But carbon dioxide emissions they've gone down a little as well. But the interesting thing there is that coming dockside is accumulating so and we're putting so much more into the atmosphere than the planet can deal with that even you know,  a10 percent 15% reduction in global emissions it's still the conductor demand is still gonna go up

Nick VinZant  07:36

We seem to be heading a certain direction in terms of climate change, correct me if I'm wrong, has what's been happening with the reductions made any dent or are we still headed in the wrong direction?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  07:49

No, it's like, it's like you're filling a bath and somebody is like kind of slightly turned down the tap. But really, the bath is still continuing to fill And what you need to do is turn off the tap is completely. And that's the only way that the tablet the bath is going to stop rising. So that's a huge task. And I don't think anybody is unaware of how difficult a task that's going to be. And it's a task that needs to be sustained over not just a few months, not just a few years, but for pretty much the rest of the century. So I, you know, we were, we're seeing this decrease this year. That that's, that's clear. But to the extent that it helps in any important way, is the extent to which any habits that have been ingrained right now, stick or that when we kind of restart economic activity that we do so in a way that puts us on a more sustainable path going forward. And those Those issues really very much still to be determined.

Nick VinZant  09:03

When we're talking about climate change kind of as a way for me to understand it on a scale of like one to 10. One, everything's gonna be fine, don't worry about it.  10 kiss your butt goodbye kind of thing life as we know, it is changing forever. Where are we kind of at now?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  09:22

I'd say about eight.

Nick VinZant  09:23

That bad?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  09:25

Yeah, I mean, you know, the trajectory we're on is putting us on a course for a climate on Earth, that has not been seen in millions of years. Right. I mean that and let me let me discuss, you know how long the period is like. So humans have only been around in our kind of modern form for about 200,000 years. The environment in which, you know, Homo sapiens evolved You know, the the African savannas, the ice ages coming and going the end of hills, all of those things, you know, all of those things have kind of fit in the last, you know, 3 million years a, where we're going in terms of climate, it goes back even before that, right. So it goes back to the prior scene, maybe even the minor scene, you know, periods that were significantly warmer where there was very little ice on the planet, or much less ice on the planet. sea levels were, you know, perhaps 20 meters so what's that 60/65 feet higher than they are now? You can still see the Paleo shorelines you know, where the where the beaches used to be on the east coast. And they're in the middle of New Jersey, not anywhere near where the present day coasters. So you know, that's kind of where we're headed andan only with You know, pretty dramatic reductions in carbon dioxide emissions will we avoid it

Nick VinZant  11:06

Is this something that we can really solve? Or are we just kind of gonna treat the symptoms of the disease and not the disease itself, so to speak?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  11:16

Well, okay,so you know what it was told me that so so we're not going to stop it, but, but it is within our power to slow it down so that, you know, we have time to adapt. You know, part of what's happening now is that it's changing much faster than civilizations ever had to deal with climate change before. And that means that it's, you know, it's more of a challenge, you know, it's harder to get things moving faster or to adapt, when things are moving fast and not stopping. Right. So can we can we ameliorate the problem can we act and reduce the impacts is going to have absolutely we Gonna just make it go away entirely? No, never.

Nick VinZant  12:03

How big of an impact does the melting of the of the ice sheets have? Do we do we kind of fully understand what that could do? Or are we still kind of figuring that out?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  12:13

So the melting of the ice sheets is one of the big components in rising sea level is rising because the ocean is getting warmer and they expand right that's about a third of the of the situation right now. We're also melting, you know, mountain glaciers around the world that's adding to the problem. we're extracting groundwater that's adding to the problem but the biggest, you know, about a third of the of the issue right now is melting of Greenland and Antarctica. Those are both both of those continents are adding water into the oceans at around 250 Giga tons of water every every year from from both from both ice sheets. And what we anticipate is as as the planet gets warmer, that those rates will increase. And so you're having an accelerating impact from the ice sheets on sea level rise. So that's that's a big concern. Right? So, do we know what it can do? Yes, obviously, I mean, like, you know it, I mean, if they all melted, it would be, you know, it'd be many, you know, maybe 100 meters of field rise now, that isn't going to happen anytime soon, thankfully. But there's there's plenty of ice and there's plenty of opportunity for that to do major damage to coastal infrastructure around the world. But I, you know, do we know everything about how the specific eye seats and the eye social cavities and the and the dynamics of ice sheets are all kind of interacting to produce that result? No, we don't. So we're spending a lot of time trying to understand those projects, those those processes better. We're spending a lot of time and effort and money are measuring those processes. You know, that's sending you know, unmanned autonomous vehicles underneath the ice sheets underneath the ice shelves to see what's going on. It's flying over the ice shells and ice sheets to see how the height is changing. It's measuring the velocity of these things from space, seeing how, you know, the math of these ice sheets is changing from gravity measurements in space. So we're, we're, we're studying this enormously hard. But, but there are there are still a lot of unknowns,

Nick VinZant  14:31

whether they're cities, countries, organizations, anything like that, because obviously there's going to be like, you kind of talked about winners and losers. Is there anybody that's kind of advocating for this, like trying to actively stop people from stopping climate change?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  14:47

Well, yeah, they're not generally, you know, people as you would understand them, but they are, you know, people who are very invested in the resource industry and the countries that are benefit enormously. From the resource industry, and they just want to sell their product and the climate be damned. It's very short term thinking. It's, but But yeah, I mean, obviously there are, there are administration's and countries that that are doing that. But, you know, there's also a lot of pushback against that. Because there are people that do have a longer term horizon that can see where things are going. And, you know, this notion of, you know, having an economy in a situation where, you know, sea level is rising out of control. That doesn't make sense for a lot of people. How did you,

Nick VinZant  15:37

how did you get into studying this?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  15:39

I was slightly planning by accident. I was, I was a math major. In college, I started doing applied maths, working to on on kind of, you know, relatively simple ocean models of various sorts, and then you No. And I've kind of gravitated to more and more complicated more and more realistic issues where, you know, you don't get an exact answer. But you do get answers much closer to the question that you really want to have answered.

Nick VinZant  16:13

Are there's some specific areas that were that are really in trouble when we talk about climate change.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  16:19

Yeah, it depends a little bit where you are, I mean, so places that are kind of Mediterranean climates where it's still pretty arid, they're generally going to get drier and so that's going to be a problem for them and their water resources. People that rely on mountain snow for water resources. Okay, well, that's going away. So now you're going to have to deal with, you know, kind of earlier spring melts and drier summers. That has implications for wildfires. If you're in an area that's prone to wildfires. You know, if you're in the far north, then you know, you have to worry about permafrost melts and you have to Worry about infrastructure that that relies on the frozen ground, you know, like the ice the ice roads to go to, to the north coast of Alaska, you know, those are much less possible now than they used to be. But if you know, you know, if you're a cruise ship owner and you want to do the northwest passage through the Arctic, well now you've got far more opportunities to do so though. I wouldn't recommend it. for for for various reasons.

Nick VinZant  17:28

I got distracted a little bit by my three year old. We did we talk about ways that we can kind of reduce it. Have we covered that I'm blanking for some reason all of a sudden?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  17:39

No, well, we didn't discuss it but but the answer is not difficult, right. The answer is we have to reduce emissions. And we have to reduce emissions of carbon dioxide for the most part, but also we think that oxides now you know, reducing carbon dioxide emissions means no, no more fossil fuel. So no more coal, no more oil, no more natural gas and replacing those energy infrastructures with something else, whether that's solar or wind or combinations or nuclear power, or geothermal or better efficiencies or need the energy in the first place. All of those can play a role in, in moving us away from fossil fuels. Now there's there's one additional thing that you could be doing, which is capturing the carbon emissions and burying it somewhere. So theoretically, that works. But, you know, it's it's one of those solutions that really only works when you have a price on putting carbon into the air, so that it makes it worthwhile to not do so for the companies involved. And we are a long way from having such a market in the US.

Nick VinZant  18:59

Do you have a A couple more minutes for some listener questions. Sure. Like, let me warn you ahead of time our our audience is very nice. They're very smart. They're a little bit quirky. There. So some of the some of the questions are a little interesting. Um, yeah. This first one is best movie where a scientist warns people of a disaster and no one listens.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  19:27

Like every single science, every single movie with the scientists, like that's, that's the stock roll. You know, whether it's Jurassic Park day after tomorrow jaws toward the Dante's peak, and we like it's a stock roll. So anytime you see a scientist on it on a TV show, oh, you know, they're they're going to be the ones that are telling people what's going to happen and nobody's going to believe them for dramatic effect. So, you know, we, we play that role on TV a lot. And you think people Look at it by now,

Nick VinZant  20:01

what is that like for, for you or other scientists, when you're kind of telling somebody about something, that's a real problem, and they just push it aside? Does that get just incredibly frustrating? Like, how do you keep doing that over and over and over again?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  20:14

So, I mean, sometimes, you know, people arguing in bad faith, you know, it's just a waste of time. Right. So, as far as trying to try and avoid that other times, you know, there are really genuine questions behind that stance, overwhelming, you know, comments that people make, and, and sometimes those are worth kind of going into in detail, you know, why? Why do we think that these that we have confidence in these predictions, you know, how do we tell these things, you know, what is the difference between weather and climate? Why can we do these predictions out longer? I mean, that's, those are those are real questions. And, you know, for people that haven't thought about it very much. You know, I'm happy to, to explain these things. And you know, and sometimes you know, you can get feedback and, you know, and questions that seems sensible to somebody and you think, Oh, well, actually, we've, we've never really answered that in that particular way. So, you know, that kind of leads you down a kind of more productive path. And, you know, quite a lot of my research work and an outreach has been in answering questions that the community as a whole hasn't really answered to people satisfaction. So there's, you know, you have to listen as opposed to just be talking. And then that makes the whole communication thing kind of more

Nick VinZant  21:35

interesting. This might get a little bit more into weather than climate, so to speak, but best Where do you think has the best weather slash climate in the world?

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  21:44

New Zealand is looking pretty good right now.

Nick VinZant  21:53

Yeah, they do look really good, don't they? There's one that just says how long before we're doomed.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  22:01

Oh that's an odd thing to ask in the middle of a pandemic. I, you know, like, we're not we're not doomed, you know, the future is created by the choices that we're making today. And while there are still sensible people who have, you know, decisions to make, that can make things better or make things worse, and there's still enough people, you know, making decisions that are pushing us in a better direction, then you know, then that's that's that's positive, and we're never going to be not in that situation. So, you know, I don't I don't have a lot of sympathy for the over dooms, like just might as well party type of attitude. I don't I don't think we do. I think we just have to make better decisions.

Nick VinZant  22:50

This these two kind of go together a little bit. coolest thing about working for NASA. Has there ever been a moment where you are just working like Wow, that's really cool.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  23:04

Um, so yes. So let me let me betray my, my slightly geeky side. working for NASA is indeed quite cool. You know, I've interacted with, with astronauts, I've interacted with people who've designed like the most amazing machines. We've, you know, we were on the receiving end of reams of data that show us things that that we never even dreamed were possible, let alone that we would actually see. And the scope of working for NASA allows you to think about things in a much, much broader context, then, then you would you'd be able to do in any other setting. You know, I mean, I've written papers about the possibility of ancient terrestrial civilizations and whether we know that they existed in The geological record, I've worked with people who are thinking about how habitable Venus was, until actually, relatively recently in solar system history, I'm working with people who are trying to work out what the techno signatures of an alien civilization around the planet on a planet around another star would look like. And I'm working on, you know, trying to see where what we're doing to the climate fits into all of those things. And so, you know, that's, that's, that's an enormous range of, of intellectual interest and joy, that we can do these things. So I love working for NASA.

Nick VinZant  24:49

Do you guys I mean, do you study like if we had to go to another planet? What planet would be suitable for us? Like, do you guys look at the client? Yes.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:00

Getting off just, it's extortionate. So there's no we're not we're moving to another planet. It's much, much better to fix the one that we're on. You know, we're interested in about habitability of Mars and Venus and, and all of these other planets that we're seeing, but none of them are as habitable as this one right here.

Nick VinZant  25:17

I always kind of felt like those pursuits, like looking for how we can move to another planet would be like, mowing the yard while the house is on fire kind of thing.

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:28

Well, no, it's it's like designing a lawn mower for a lawn that doesn't exist while the house is on fire.

Nick VinZant  25:34

Yeah. Um, is there anything that we should be talking about that, that, that maybe you haven't covered or anything like that, like,

Dr. Gavin Schmidt  25:42

you know, I mean, the technology that we're putting together to see what's going on is extremely cool, right? So if you're interested in cool technologies, then look into that. But, you know, this technology, our understanding doesn't exist in a vacuum, right. It exists. You know, in the context of, you know, how society works, how society functions, you know the inequities in society, you know, who benefits who loses, who, who gets impacted and who doesn't get impacted. And we're seeing that writ large with the pandemic, you know, when when the stress comes along, you know, society fractures along the fault lines that already existed. And so if you're interested in you know, how society is going to cope, look at what's happening with the pandemic, look who's who's being served, look who is start looking was getting services, look who is getting, you know, who, you know, where, where the suffering is most and it tells you that we have a long, long way to go. In terms of, you know, fixing society and fixing the way things work, to do deal with with stresses like the pandemic or like climate change.

Nick VinZant  27:00

I want to thank Dr. Smith so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media accounts where Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast.  I think it's impossible to say enough about just how important dealing with climate change is going to be for all of us moving forward

Professional Golfer Hailey Ostrom

She didn't have money. She didn't know anyone. She only knew that if she wanted to pursue her dream, this is what it would take. Professional Golfer Hailey Ostrom joins us. We talk golf, her journey to the pros and why you shouldn't wear jeans on the course. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things People Lie About.

Interview with Hailey Ostrom

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, golf, lie, LPGA, golfer,play, person, professional golfer, grocery carts, movie, sports, walk, golf course, punching, throwing, talking, feel, bag, meeting

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant – Profoundly Pointless Host

Hailey Ostrom – Professional Golfer

Nick VinZant  00:13

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we're going golfing and counting down the top five things people lie about.

Hailey Ostrom  00:24

So for me, I think the hardest part was the fact that I just basically threw all of my belongings in a car and drove down to Arizona, and I took a huge leap of faith there and just went for it. How do you make that jump? And be, you know, the top golfer on the LPGA Tour, versus somebody like me, who's currently, you know, scrambling on many tours, what's the difference between me and those golfers and there really is a small difference. You know, this person gave up their life. They they fought for our country and I got to share his story while I had the bag people would ask about it and I got to talk about him and share his story and meet his his parents.

Nick VinZant  01:12

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So have you ever wondered if you have what it takes? You're good at something. But could you be really good? Could you be a professional? Could you be a professional on the highest level? Our first guest is going through that journey right now. And I think that she has this incredibly inspiring story about pursuing your dreams and really going after something that you want, while also giving back to a lot of people at the same time and having a huge impact that way as well. This is professional golfer Haley Ostrom. So was golf, the first sport or did you come into this later?

Hailey Ostrom  02:03

I grew up playing pretty much every sport known to man. My dad got me into the game when I was really young, but I kind of played a little bit of everything soccer, basketball, volleyball, tennis, everything and then I didn't start playing in tournaments until I was nine years old.

Nick VinZant  02:25

Are you pretty athletic?

Hailey Ostrom  02:27

I like to say that I am athletic. I like to try new new stuff. Just recently, I've started learning how to snowboard and then last week, I went and wake boarded and learned to wake surf for the first time. So I'm definitely always curious about new sports.

Nick VinZant  02:49

When we talk about like in relation to other professional golfers though, like art, is it athletic ability, like do you have an awesome vertical or something or is there something else that makes a good golfer?

Hailey Ostrom  03:03

Well, I definitely do not have an awesome vertical. I have white girl hops all the way. But I would say yes, in the grand scheme of things a, you know, General athletic ability that I have, but I don't think that golfers necessarily have to be athletic and well rounded in all sports. I think it's such a specific type of athlete that is a good golfer. So I don't know most of my professional friends. They're good golfers, but they probably aren't very good soccer players or basketball players. I think it's it's not a general athletic ability in golf.

Nick VinZant  03:46

When you kind of started to pursue this more seriously, was it because you really liked golf more than other sports or was it because you were better at golf

Hailey Ostrom  03:57

It was definitely because I was better. Better at golf. And I think I just one day kind of realized that this was my ticket to college. And in my household growing up college was not an option. It was that it's that that's what you're gonna go do. That was what my parents were going to provide for my brother and I. But golf is going to be the way that I can kind of choose the college that I want to go to, and be different, I guess. So. I played volleyball as well as golf in high school. And it wasn't until my junior year that I decided I'm gonna stop playing volleyball and I'm just gonna focus on golf, because that's gonna be my ticket.

Nick VinZant  04:46

When did you start considering it? Like, Okay, I'm gonna do this professionally now.

Hailey Ostrom  04:50

Yeah, I would say it wasn't until going into my senior season. George Fox university that I realized I had It improved so much over the course of those three years. And then my dad kind of put that idea in my head like, hey, maybe if you keep improving this year, this is going to be your breakthrough year. You know, I believe in you, your coach believes in you. If you keep improving, you could really have a shot at a future and golf longer than your college career. And so I think my my senior year was that test run of like, Alright, this is make it or break it, like if I played really well, my senior year that I'm getting serious about it. But I think had I not had a really good senior year, maybe I wouldn't have continued to pursue it in professional golf.

Nick VinZant  05:44

Did you have an easy transition into the professional ranks? Or has it been a struggle?

Hailey Ostrom  05:50

I wouldn't say that it was easy, but I also wouldn't say that it was a struggle. I think it's probably hard for anybody to Try something new and, and crazy for yourself and pursue something so different. I mean, there aren't that many people after college who pursue a professional career in a sport. They might they, they usually just take their degree and go pursue that. So for me, I think the hardest part was the fact that I just basically threw all of my belongings in a car and drove down to Arizona. And I took a huge leap of faith there and just went for it. 100% I didn't know I really didn't know my roommate that I was about to live with. I didn't know her brother, who I was also going to be living with. I had never been to Scottsdale before. I didn't have a job and I barely had any money in my bank account, but I just took that leap. And I would say, that was the hardest thing for me to do. But also the best thing for me, I think that was one of my biggest decisions I've made In my 26 years, that that really helped set my path. But as far as playing, went, I had such a strong team behind me, my parents and my whole family and my college coach still supports me today. And I was able to find the right coach in Arizona, and he became my support team here. So from there, I just kind of built a little family and a little team in Arizona and and went with it.

Nick VinZant  07:36

How do you become a professional golfer, like is there a tryout to see if you can get on the tour? Do you qualify? Like, do you just show up? What do you do

Hailey Ostrom  07:47

You just show up

Nick VinZant  07:40

Just show up with some clubs and say here I am huh?

Hailey Ostrom  07:52

Yeah, so golf is a lot different than any other sport and I think a lot of people don't actually know that the answer to that question So with golf, you can pretty much sign up for any tournament as a professional. But once you do, so there's no going back. So, tournament entry fees are more expensive when you're a professional. And once you turn pro, you can accept sponsorships and money. But you can no longer ever play an amateur events again. So you're giving up that right. So for me, my first year I decided to remain an amateur when I moved to Arizona and I played on the cactus tour as an amateur. So my entry fees were a lot cheaper, but I couldn't accept any sponsors. But I figured for me, I didn't think I was gonna go out and win a bunch of money right away. So it was worth it for me to save the money on the entry fees and get some experience under my belt. Then I started realizing I had potential to Receive sponsorships and my first one was actually Nike. And that's when I decided, Okay, this is serious, you know, my social media has kind of taken taken off right now. So I decided to enter into my next event as a professional. And that's that's basically all you have to do, but it wouldn't. It's not that everybody can be a pro there would be no benefit for somebody to go sign up in a tournament as a professional and then just go walk around claiming that their professional golfer

Nick VinZant  09:35

but like, if I wanted to, I could technically do it.

Hailey Ostrom  09:41

Technically, yes, but you wouldn't have any status on any tours. That's why you get status on a tour you have to go compete at q school or qualifying school. So for the women we have LPGA qualifying school, you go it's three different stages. The first stage is one tournament of four days. And you compete against hundreds of other women and try and make it into stage two. Stage Two is another tournament, you go there, do the same thing and then try and make into the final stage. And that's where you can earn your LPGA status. So if you are just some random Joe Schmo on the street and you want to be a professional golfer, great, they'll sign up in a professional event. Probably not, you're not gonna get anywhere with it until you go get status on a tour.

Nick VinZant  10:30

How much of a difference is there between like a really good golfer and you? And then somebody who say is mid level or top level on LPGA?

Hailey Ostrom  10:43

Um, no. So there is not a big difference at all. And that's, that's kind of the the big question I guess in in golf is how do you how do you make that jump and be, you know, the top golfer on the LPGA Tour versus somebody like me, who's currently, you know, scrambling on many tours. What's the difference between me and those golfers and there really is a small difference. And trying to narrow down like what I can improve on is so hard sometimes that might might be the hardest, hardest issue. If I go out on on the driving range, and I hit balls, next to Lexi Thompson and all the other big names on tour, you probably wouldn't be able to pick me out and be like, oh, that girl clearly doesn't belong here. Like I my swing is is solid. I have a good game. But the difference is so small. It's just, you know, those girls making more birdies or who can handle the pressure or who can make the leap down the stretch. It's really small. differences. I think the difference between an amateur golfer or like a weekend warrior versus a professional golfer, though is big.

Nick VinZant  12:10

When you look at it and reflect on the differences between you and an LPGA player, do you see something that you need to improve on or does it just depend on the day?

Hailey Ostrom  12:25

Yeah, I so I keep all of my stats, and I evaluate where I go wrong on the course and the differences. And I always I love playing with golfers who are better than me, who doesn't, right, you want to get better and improve. So when I play with golfers that I consider to be better than me or have better status than me. I really focus on where they score and how they score. And I think what I have come down to is those girls are making more birdies. So when I have a birdie putt opportunity I may make it may not when they have a birdie putt opportunity, they're going to make it so birdie opportunities usually like 10 feet or or closer. They're going to make those putts. So mine's like maybe a 50/50 chance if I make it or not, they are going to make it and I think it's not that they're better Potter's. I think it's a mental check that they know that they need that birdie or they have worked hard to put themselves in that position to get that birdie. So they're going to make it whereas for me when I step up to that point, it's like I really want this birdie. I kind of want it too much. I'm putting a lot of pressure now on myself to make that so I might make it or I might not. So it's kind of figuring out what mental approach works best for you. I'm a true believer in the mental game and and it's a huge aspect to Professional Golf and probably any professional sport,

Nick VinZant  14:04

Do you think that golf is more of a mental sport than other sports?

Hailey Ostrom  14:09

Yeah, 100% I do just because golf is so different where there is not action the entire time you you spent I think, I don't know the statistic you're the the numbers on this. But I think it's something like during your entire round, you only really spend like 40 minutes or maybe even less than that. really focused on the shot. And actually, it might be a lot less than that might be like 20 minutes, you spend like 20 minutes, but around could take four hours. So you have all of that time to walk up to your ball and think about whatever is going to come into your mind. You have to train yourself to stay focused when you need to be focused, but to let go when you need to let go. So that's it. thing that I struggled with for a long time is I would be focused the whole time. And I it was like a little, if you could just picture my mind, it would be like a fist, a ball of, you're putting your fist in a ball, I was just clenched up all the time. Like, I'm going to focus, I'm gonna win, I'm gonna, you know, whatever, so intense. And that's not how the game needs to be played. You cannot be that focused and that intense for four hours, you're gonna I used to be exhausted by the end of my rounds. And so I think mental game with golf is you have to know when to focus, which is when you get up to your shot. Now you need to clear your mind focus in dial in on what you need to accomplish focus while you hit the shot. And as soon as the shot is gone. You have to release and just pick up your bag and walk to the next one.

Nick VinZant  15:52

So for you, what's the ultimate goal?

Hailey Ostrom  15:56

For me, the goal is to make it on the LPGA I think not only has that been something that I've wanted for a while now, but it's something I think I could make a difference in and kind of change the game a little bit. And help, you know, use my platform for good. I have built a small platform with my social media and it's so cool to see that I have impacted some younger women younger girls and some way and helped them in some way or inspired them even the slightest bit. So I think, if I were to make on the LPGA I could reach so many more people.

Nick VinZant  16:40

You do a lot of stuff for charity, what inspires you to be so involved?

Hailey Ostrom  16:45

Um, I feel like I have just been impacted in my life to see the good and some of the charities and what these organizations do and they have, you know, helped me get through some As far as, for example, I will just give this example. In college we were given the opportunity to carry a golf bag of a fallen soldier. So we all had our own team golf bag and then we had one extra bag that had not our name on it, but it had Lieutenant Mark Jennings daily on it. And one player got to carry that bag each week to the tournament. So whenever I got to carry the bag, it just was such a good reminder for me, that you know, this person gave up their life they they fought for our country, and I got to share his story while I had the bag people would ask about it and I got to talk about him and share his story and meet his his parents. And it just reminded me that there are such greater things in life than then a game of golf and it helped me put that into perspective and not get so frustrated on Golf Course anytime I hit a bad shot or, or I want to get mad or, you know, slam my club down, I would see his bag over there with the American flag on it. And I was like, okay, that's a ridiculous thing to get upset about. And it really did just help me put that into perspective and learn more about perspective. So, from that moment on, I figured I wanted to help give back to organizations like that. And I actually got involved in now work for backswing golf events. And a lot of our probably 90% of our events, we go out to charity events and help raise money for the charity. And it's so much fun to go out, you raise money, you have a fun time out on the course that day you get to hit shots and interact with people and meet new people. And then at the end, you go in and you give the tournament director, the money that you raise for that day and we raise a lot of money. For these, for these charities, we we raised a million dollars last year. So we, you know, walking in and giving that money over and seeing how happy they are and how excited they are. It's, it's really cool that you can make a difference, you know, and, and for me, it's great. It's like a win win all around because I get to work on my golf game and be outside and meet new people and help charity

Nick VinZant  19:24

is golfing like other sports like do you have a physical prime?

Hailey Ostrom  19:28

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that golf has a physical prime. I mean, look at people on tour right now look at Phil Mickelson, Phil's 50 he's in his 50s now, and he's still out there just crushing it. So I would say that when you're younger, obviously it might come a little easier because it's probably easier to gain muscle and be fit and strong and healthy. You have to work a little bit harder as you get older for those things, but I wouldn't say that there's a physical Prime so many people play me my grandma's 84 years old and she still plays golf.

Nick VinZant  20:06

Are are you ready for the harder slash listeners submitted questions?

Hailey Ostrom  20:11

I am

Nick VinZant  20:13

Do you get tired of walking?

Hailey Ostrom  20:18

I actually prefer walking on the golf course especially when I'm in a tournament because I think that gives me time to be by myself and just enjoy being outside and just kind of part of nature I guess. So no, I don't get tired of walking but I work out enough to make sure that I don't get physically tired.

Nick VinZant  20:43

Favorite golf course.

Hailey Ostrom  20:44

My favorite golf course is crosswater is Sunriver, Oregon. I grew up playing there and then my senior year I won our conference championship there so I have a lot of good memories there.

Nick VinZant  20:57

Popular golf course. Other people seem to Like that you do not.

Hailey Ostrom  21:02

Oh, ah, I feel like I do have an answer to this. I just have to think about it for a second. There's a lot of courses in Arizona that I feel like get so much attention and I'm like I don't really like the hype. For example, one course that I have yet to play very well is true north. I can't even think of which side it is but it's a treat to to go out there because it is very nice. But I have not played it well yet. So I can't say I love it. But it is very, very nice. Another course I would say talking stick here in Scottsdale is really popular and not a huge fan. I think it's a little overrated. I like hidden gems, the ones that aren't super popular, but when you go out you just have such a fun time. It's a nice surprise

Nick VinZant  22:03

question from somebody. Do I need to wear pants to impress my friends when golfing? Will that help me out and make me look like a better golfer than I really am?

Hailey Ostrom  22:15

Hey, look good, feel good play good, right? That's, that's my motto. No, you don't need to wear pants. But I would recommend not wearing jeans on on any golf course even if they allow it probably just don't wear jeans. But you can wear shorts. I think that that's fine.

Nick VinZant  22:36

I've always had a problem when people like really show their socks like when they were like the ankle socks. I feel like that. Like that got that person's not going to be a great golfer.

Hailey Ostrom  22:48

I think if you just you know really rock your look with confidence Go for it, but I think they're I would just look up like some of the Nikes models or something Nike golf models because I think their their mind right now is so new and hip, and it's like a new version of golf. And they're kind of remaking the golf look. And so it's more athletic nowadays so you can wear high top golf shoes and cool shorts and a nice collared shirt and look really legit and look like an athlete rather than, you know, looking like your 80 year old grandpa who's been playing at the country club every week.

Nick VinZant  23:35

wearing shorts he's had since 1990.

Hailey Ostrom  23:39

Yeah, exactly.

Nick VinZant  23:41

best movie about a golfer. Our best golf best golf movie, worst golf movie,

Hailey Ostrom  23:48

best golf movie, my favorite Seven Days in Utopia. A lot of people don't know that movie, but I would definitely check it out and it's all about the mental side of golf. It's also book it was a book first but seven days you type utopia for sure.

Nick VinZant  24:05

Worst golf movie.

Hailey Ostrom  24:09

Um, I don't really have one that I really dislike but I will probably get so much hate for this but Happy Gilmore is just not my favorite.

Nick VinZant  24:21

Yeah, if you would have said Caddyshack, I was thinking of hanging up.

Hailey Ostrom  24:27

Oh my gosh, no Caddyshack for sure. is in. But Tin Cup is in. But Happy Gilmore is probably my least my least favorite out of all of them.

Nick VinZant  24:38

I could see that. It's kind of what did it get worse for you? Because I feel like Adam Sandler made some movies later on that kind of ruined his earlier movies in some way.

Hailey Ostrom  24:50

Yeah, I think it's just like that stupid funny, you know? And so after a while, it's like, okay, it's not that funny. But it's okay. Like, I have still watch it and I still like doing the Happy Gilmore swing and I appreciate it for the golf world, but it's my least favorite,

Nick VinZant  25:08

favorite club in your bag.

Hailey Ostrom  25:12

Every club in my bag is my favorite. Now I'm just kidding. Every club in my bag is not my favorite. Definitely, I've known for my driver, I love my driver. But I would say my putter is probably tied with my driver just because you have to fall in love with your putter. It's the most important club in the bag.

Nick VinZant  25:35

So I'm not nearly a good enough golfer to really know the difference but I mean is can you hit basically every club like as a as a professional? Is there really any difference? Like do you hit one club like, man, I can really hit this five. I can't hit this four.

Hailey Ostrom  25:52

No, actually, it's funny that you asked that because I think until up until like, maybe a year ago. I Oh had one club in my bag that I just didn't like as much as the others. There was always one. And so you feel like that one club comes up all the time and around, you're like, shoot, I don't want to hit this club. This is my least favorite club. But now I think I've just kind of made that turn in my game where I don't have that anymore. It used to be something where I had to work on that club a lot because I would be you know, stressed now when that yardage would come up and now I'm like, I'm not afraid to hit any shot and I know I can pull off any shot so yeah, it doesn't really affect me anymore. But that definitely was the thing for me, especially in college. I always had one club I just didn't like as much

Nick VinZant  26:46

are you? Are you actively thinking like during the swing? like okay, tuck my elbow twist my leg or is it all muscle memory point?

Hailey Ostrom  26:54

Oh, definitely don't want to think about mechanics during your swing. That will not help you. So I always have one swing thought. And it doesn't even have to be about the swing itself. It could just be, you know, Target or tempo, or, you know, breeze or whatever. But I always have one thing. A lot of times I'll think about keeping a shorter backswing I get, I tend to get really long with my backswing. So that's something that is more swing related that I think of, but that's it. I won't, I won't think of anything else.

Nick VinZant  27:31

Um, best golf trick that you can do.

Hailey Ostrom  27:34

I can't do that many check shots. So I would say my go to i can i can juggle and I can juggle between the legs and stuff and hit out of the air, but I can't do that many cool things. So my go to trick shot that looks pretty cool. Is juggling and then I can catch the ball in my hat. I flip the hat around and let the ball fall through the little pony detail spot. And then I continue I kept getting Chug, juggle it again. But that's honestly like so simple. Anybody can learn it. You can check it out on my YouTube because I did a full tutorial.

Nick VinZant  28:13

I mean, that sounds actually really impressive.

Hailey Ostrom  28:16

It looks cool and it looks like Oh, that looks like a cool trick shot like that looks fancy. But it's one that you can probably tell it's not that hard and it makes other people want to try it. So I think it's a good one

Nick VinZant  28:29

is I don't know if this is the right word dream golf foursome. Is that

Hailey Ostrom  28:34

Yep. Okay. So my dream golf for some I was I feel like I change it all the time. It just depends on the day. I always include my dad because i think if i he's the one that got me into the game, so if I'm gonna go get to play with with some cool people, then he should get to come with me. So it would be myself and my dad. A problem. Gonna have to say tiger. If I'm gonna have those three then it needs to be Phil. Phil tiger, me and my dad I think would be so fun, but I get to ride in a golf cart with Phil.

Nick VinZant  29:13

You're gonna take Tiger over Phil.

Hailey Ostrom  29:16

Yeah, because Tiger would be so intense and I would probably be so nervous. And I wouldn't want to say anything stupid. So I think with Phil I could just joke around, can have a drink or to have some fun.

Nick VinZant  29:32

Have you ever lost to like a random person?

Hailey Ostrom  29:34

Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, I can't think of anything. Anyone on the top of my head. But yeah, there's there's people I actually one of my my friends. His name is Terry. He's like, I think he's 73 years old. And he plays golf here in Arizona and I met him through one of my got my special girlfriends and he invites me I'm going to play with him tomorrow morning. He gets me out once in a while, go play with him and he is such a good golfer. And he can beat me he hits the ball about the same distance as me. And he can beat me on any given day. He's shot his age many, many times.

Nick VinZant  30:14

So, like, do you have, do you have a handicap?

Hailey Ostrom  30:19

No when you're a professional, you don't keep a handicap because you don't need it anymore for tournaments. But I just I play to a scratch, you know, play, play part off but

Nick VinZant  30:28

Lowest that you've ever shot?

Hailey Ostrom  30:31

69 is my low.

Nick VinZant  30:33

That's really all the questions that I have and what's what's kind of coming up next for you.

Hailey Ostrom  30:39

So, you know, because of everything, I don't really have anything right now on the schedule I had. My April and May are my two busiest months for work. And that's kind of when I work really hard to save up a bunch of money and then I'm prepared for the rest of the year for golf tournaments and everything got canceled as you can imagine. So So I don't know right now the tour, I think the Wi Fi tour is supposed to start in June LPGA canceled all of their Monday qualifiers for anybody who doesn't have any LPGA status. So those were at the top of my list for this year, and now, I can't blame them. So I'm i right now my goal is I'm focusing on q School, which got moved to October, and I was gonna make sure I'm prepared for that.

Nick VinZant  31:31

I want to thank Haley so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts, or Profoundly Pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on this podcast. She's got a really cool YouTube page. It's really cool. It shows you exactly what goes into being a professional golfer. And there's a lot of creative stuff on social media there as well. We've also, we've noticed a lot of our guests are now creating tic tocs. So we put her tic toc in there as well. And we created a tic toc for this podcast. And because I think that we're kind of too old to get it, we're going to be the awkward people on social media. If you want to check it out, like we'll see how just out of touch we can be for a little while. Hopefully we'll get at least let's try to get five followers by 2021 because I feel like this is gonna go really, really badly for us.

Adventure Photographer Paul Zizka

From the peaks of the Canadian Rockies to the isolation of the Antarctic tundra, Adventure Photographer Paul Zizka explores the world through photographs. We talk photography, exploration and waiting years for one photograph. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Cheese.

Interview with Paul Zizka

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, photography, places, images, photographer, photos, mountains, moments, antarctica, avalanche, shot, move, Greenland

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant – Profoundly Pointless Host

Paul Zizka – Paul Zizka Photography

Nick VinZant  00:13

Hello everyone welcome to Profoundly Pointless my name is Nick coming up in this episode, we're gonna go on an artistic photographic journey to all seven continents, and then count down the top five kinds of cheese.

Paul Zizka  00:27

And I just fell in love with the mountains and the possibilities for exploration. Eventually, I realized that photography just really made those outdoor experiences even more powerful that there's a danger in a creative sense. There's a danger going to those places that you're just going to repeat you sort of microwave what you've seen online a million times as opposed to create something that is more you. It's, you know, the mountains are dangerous and they send you constant reminders of that I was on a glacier in Jasper Jasper National Park, and there was this huge avalanche coming down the biggest I've ever seen.

Nick VinZant  01:08

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, it really helps us out. We really appreciate it. Our first guest is an artist. I don't think people necessarily immediately think about photography as an artistic expression. But our first guest absolutely captures the artistic side of it, because some of the pictures that he takes, and the places that he takes them from are just incredible. And he has this really fascinating story about not just pursuing what it is that you're really passionate about, in some cases, taking years, years to take one photograph. This is Paul Ziska. So for you what kind of inspired the career path Was it a love of photography or love of the outdoors?

Paul Zizka  02:03

It was first and foremost a love for the outdoors. I moved, I'm from Eastern Canada, and I came out to check out the mountains, like every Easterner does at some point in their teenage years, and I just fell in love with the mountains and the possibilities for exploration. And right away, I thought, Okay, I need to make a life here. And if I'm going to make a life here, how can I be outside as much as possible? And so I narrowed it down to a few career paths, such as guiding and photography. And eventually I realized that photography just really made those outdoor experiences even more powerful. And so I it just became sort of the obvious way forward for me at that point.

Nick VinZant  02:50

Were you good right from the bat, or was it something that you really really had to work on?

Paul Zizka  02:55

I was a good observer. I would get the odd comment. You know, when I would share images, I would get the odd comment from people saying, you know, you should maybe consider taking this a little bit more seriously, you have a good eye, you, you sort of provide an interesting perspective on things. And I didn't take any of that, too seriously. You know, when friends and family tell you, you're good at something they're not, you know, they're always a little bit biased. Mostly, I think I was, I was driven more than more than I was a talented photographer. I think I just one size, set my eyes on that as a career path. I just wanted it really badly. And I kind of think that that sort of proved more useful to me than any kind of natural talent initially.

Nick VinZant  03:43

You know, we've interviewed a number of people on this podcast and a number of our listeners seem to have kind of struggled with that same kind of question about like, how do I, how do I really know when to pursue something? Was it something that just kind of clicked or how did you know that this was something You could do,

Paul Zizka  04:01

I knew that I had the passion, the passion was there that was clear. I absolutely loved going out there. And especially once I realized that photography could be so much more than documenting that, that it could be a creative outlet and I could have an impact on other people through a body of work and all that became quickly became addictive, that it that was more of a matter of, you know, how can I make it? How can I make it make a living of it, without starting to hate what I'm doing. And because I only had myself to worry about at that time, I didn't really need too much of an income to make it work. So I sort of saved up and save up some money. So I was able to kind of ditch everything else and live and breathe photography and do just that for a full year and take lots of bad photos and experiment and go out and figure it out for myself. And as I was doing that, I started to monetize a little bit and I realized That at least for you know, for just a guy living sort of on his own time that that would be enough to to make things work, I was able to cobble living together and eventually, you know, I got married and have kids now it's like I was I found other sources of income and other ways to generate revenue that support us as a family and I don't hate it yet. So it's I think it's working out okay.

Nick VinZant  05:26

Are you mainly trying to go to places and explore places that maybe people haven't photographed before? Are you trying to take more unique images of I don't mean this word, but pop more popular places.

Paul Zizka  05:40

For me photography is very much tied to curiosity and exploration and actually I would probably put exploration ahead of the head of photography even so I like to go out there and explore. First and foremost, if I get If I if it, if it gets me to places where nobody goes, then then that's great if I get good images out of it that that's sort of a convenient by product. But I found that my happy place is when I explore and when I go somewhere that I've never really set eyes on. So that's that's usually my primary goal. And then and then after the fact, I'll try to, if I do get some good images, I'll try to monetize in one way or another. I don't. I don't sort of I don't avoid the iconic locations. I live in a place where there's a lot of those sort of trophy shots that people come and shoot repeatedly. And they do people go to those places for a reason. Those places are absolutely fantastic, incredibly photogenic that there's a danger in a creative sense. There's a danger going to those places that you're just going to repeat you sort of microwave what you've seen online a million times as opposed to create something that is more you and you those places, sort of encourage you to stray from your creative path and your own voice a little bit. And I think it's that's where it's it's becomes a real challenge. How do you how do you pursue that creative voice and you don't sell out but still find a way to, to monetize? In the end? It's a delicate dance for sure. And it's I think it's something that all photographers struggle with. And there's days where you you do the dance very well, and days where you strugglea little bit more.

Nick VinZant  07:27

You instruct people a lot. What's the mistake that people are usually making?

Paul Zizka  07:31

That's an excellent question. The mistake that people are usually making, well, one of the most common mistakes I think I just I just sort of touched on is they go to a place and their main goal is to recreate something that that they've already seen someone do an emulation as part of the creative process. You know, I think it's, it's, it's a very natural thing to do. I sure have just, you know, went out there and try to recruit images that others took when I first started, definitely. But I think a mistake that a lot of people take especially make, especially in this age of social media, is that the they get stuck at that step and they have trouble moving beyond that and creating a body of work that's truly theirs. So that's, that's one thing that that's one mistake I can think of that people make. And also, I think is just, people don't commit the time, as much as they used to, I think in terms of you know, connecting with nature, getting a real sense of place. I live in a place that sees huge amount of visitation millions and millions of people every year. And it seems like increasingly, people including photographers are just in a rush to move on to the next thing and to try to fit in as men as much as they can in their itinerary, which doesn't really allow for to work as a photographer doesn't allow you to work with intent and to commit you know, what's the time that it takes to create reading next Level images. So I'd say those are the main two mistakes that that I see people making in my field. What's the longest that you've ever spent taking one picture? Well, there's pictures that I've visualized. I've pre visualized. And it took years, you know, for the right conditions to align in to allow those images to come to be in terms of, you know, being in on location and waiting it out. I would say, you know, probably probably hours just sitting by the tripod and waiting for things to come together waiting, waiting for waiting for the Aurora to come out maybe the clouds to move out of the way or just to just just getting into position and preemptively and waiting for just darkness to come. There's also you know, of course, there's photos that required a little bit more physical work, so just getting to the location may have taken hours or days, but there's definitely some now having said that, not not all the images Is that I'm proud of required that kind of commitment. There's images where, you know, I was driving around and the light was amazing. I pulled over to the shot and I went home and it didn't have to break a sweat. So the mix of a mix of the two, but I think the more you shoot, the more you realize that great images take commitment, sometimes you're just gonna have to really put in the work and commit a lot of time for your vision to to materialize.

Nick VinZant  10:28

Is it more technical skill? Or is it more just having the eye to find kind of a unique composition?

Paul Zizka  10:37

I think the technical side of things that becomes second nature pretty early in your journey as a photographer, you know, if you shoot a lot, after a year or two, I think you don't really think about the techie stuff nearly as much it it's it just sort of happens. And it's not something that makes you pause a lot in the field or anything. What wants to once you've acquired that don't have that kind of second nature skill, then I think it's it's really what makes you progress as a photographer is read a more abstract stuff like yeah, like, like your own vision and being able to anticipate possibilities and being able to being able to work with intent, I think is a big one, as opposed to just trying to just as opposed to being scattered. I think I was a lot, I was a lot more scattered when I first started and now work, I work with a lot more intention. And I do the more I shoot, the less I shoot in the sense that I the camera stays in the bag a lot more than it used to be just because you're you're always looking for, for the extraordinary and your standards sort of get get better and better. So I think you know, the technical stuff. Once you're a few years into it. It's not really what bogs you down. It's not the limiting factor for anyone. I think the limiting factor is how am I going to get the body of work That is that is my own and that that sort of stands out.

Nick VinZant  12:03

How do you feel when somebody just assumes that your pictures are good? Because you have a really nice camera?

Paul Zizka  12:10

I think that's I'd say it's flattering really. If you've been in the industry if you benefit tog refer for a while, you heard you've heard that one. So, so many times that you feel a little bit immune to it, but I think it's a great opportunity to educate people and to just put a put a positive spin on things and let people know that you know, it's really not it be lying if I said, gear doesn't make a difference. It does. It does really help but really, it's one of so many factors involved in the making of a great image. And then usually when I point that out, people they get it.

Nick VinZant  12:54

Do you have kind of a basic philosophy when it comes to photography

Paul Zizka  13:00

I put the experience ahead of the art, I would say, I've been guilty many times, especially when I started, I was guilty of going out with a specific image in mind. And I was tunnel visioned into seeing that image come to life. And I refuse to accept that the conditions didn't really align for that image to come to exist. And because they, I would go to a place and that didn't get the beautiful light or the nice colors I was hoping for I would go home disappointed, which after a while, I thought was was really a shame because, you know, I thought, well, how is it that I can go to a place where millions of people dream to go once in their life and I couldn't home with a negative experience. I owe it to the rest of the world to not do that. And then I realized, well, that's because I put the results ahead of the experience. And I think as the years went by, I started putting the experience ahead of everything else. In seeing the photos more as a as a byproduct, you know, seeing, you know, going out there making sure that making sure that you know, every day in the mountains is a good day, and he's just any Sunrise by a lake is a good experience. And if I get if I get the photos to show for it, that's great, but I can't I can't afford to come home with a negative experience from that. So I think if you if you put the experience ahead of the photographs, and sort of the journey, the whole experience ahead of the results, then then you win every time. And that's the philosophy I tried to abide by him.

Nick VinZant  14:37

For you. Like what would you say is your best photography experience? Like the thing that jumps out to you? Time and time again?

Paul Zizka  14:46

Oh, gosh, it's hard to pick just one but in a general way. I would say the best photo experiences I've had are the ones where I've been able to have both both inexperienced both both memories that that there's still vivid to me, as well as some photos that I look back on, you know, 510 years later, photos I look at and Andy take me to take me right back to a specific moment. And they stand the test of time, technically, they're strong. So not only do they just, you know, sort of allow me to relive those moments, but technically there are images that are compelling that are that stir up emotion not just in me, but in other people as well. I think if I've had the experience and photos that have that kind of quality, then then those those will those experience. Those are the more powerful moments that I've had in my career.

Nick VinZant  15:40

Have you ever felt like you've gone too far for a photo so to speak, like, have you ever put yourself in a situation that looking back on like, whoa, I maybe shouldn't have done that?

Paul Zizka  15:50

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I live I live in the mountains and I spent a lot of time in, you know, in in sort of remote areas, in places where there's a little Bit of objective hazard and more than once I've taken a photo or ended up not taking it and drove home or sort of walked away from the location thinking yeah, that was not the smartest moment the smartest decision of my life to sort of tried to make that image happen sometimes you get so caught up in the process, that it you can kind of lose track of the danger. You know, if you're into mountaineering photography, well, there's inherent dangers and if you if you play in the mountains and photograph in the mountains long enough, well, you're you're just, you know, it's always always a bit of a gamble. I mean, is it dangerous just because of like avalanche, or you're like on the side of a cliff or what is it about it? Yeah, you know, there's there's objective hazards like, like avalanche, rockfall, you know, if you do if you're if you head out on the glaciers, you've got the crevasses there, always A potential danger. Just exposure in general, just the elements getting lost. Yeah, falling rappelling accidents. I mean, the mountains, the mountains are dangerous. And it's, you know, the mountains are dangerous and the sand do constant reminders of that. You've been to all seven continents.

Nick VinZant  17:23

Which one kind of stands out to you?

Paul Zizka  17:26

Gosh, that's a great question. I'd say the one that stands out the most probably Antarctica, just because there's really nowhere else. There's nowhere else like it that kind of offers that. That sort of feeling of remoteness and that end of the world feel where it feels like if you go a little too far, a little further, you're just gonna fall off the planet almost. I've, I felt like I felt so far away from and so cut off from the world, the times that I've gone to Antarctica and just just the dish sheer beauty and just being able to wit being able to witness what the what the wildlife can do if it's left alone and to do to do what it wants, what what it would naturally do, it's just really eye opening. So I feel like nothing, nothing really compares to Antarctica. I my favorite place outside of the Rockies is probably Greenland. So I would say if I can just single out Greenland from the rest of Europe, that's probably the place that that has the most that that's the most magnetic magnetic for me, because it's got so much untapped photo potential, so much wilderness, and it doesn't have the restrictions that Antarctica has. So you're sort of you're you're free to explore at your own risk and and just create at your own risk in in Greenland and there's no boundaries that way. So that's, that's a place that you know, if Greenland was a continent, it was it would come out ahead of everything else, but otherwise Antartica is pretty special too.

Nick VinZant  19:01

Are you ready for the harder slash listeners submitted questions?

Paul Zizka  19:06

Absolutely fire away?

Nick VinZant  19:08

How do you feel about extensive editing of photos? Like do you feel like that's cheating? Do you feel like that's straight photography? Or do you feel like that's more of an art composition thing?

Paul Zizka  19:23

I think the most important thing is to know where you stand for yourself and to be open about your process. When people ask. I have nothing against people who do compras at work, you know, it's not it's not my thing. Or what you what some people would call illustrations, you know, where maybe, you know, you borrow, you borrow a full moon from Banff and you you add some Aurora from Greenland and a landscape from Mongolia or something. You know, it can lead to beautiful results. If it's done, right. There's lots of people doing an amazing job at it. I just know it's not it's not for me. For me, a lot of the a lot of the joy in photography comes from the chase and trying to put yourself in a position where those incredible moments will align in front of you in nature and and that's what kind of keeps me going out there. And I think if I was to put those moments together, you know, in front of the computer at home, I think the the, the art form would lose some of its appeal for me, but people lie to some where different on the spectrum and I'm standing I totally respect that some people are more purists. And they will not do any editing at all. I think I'm, I'm somewhere in the middle. But I've been trying to be very open about my process. But for me, I would only create images where you know, the elements you see in the shot are the elements that were there at the time. Now I might do a little bit of a little bit of blending or change, you know, Adjusting contrast and but I think overall ethically I'm I'm probably somewhere in the middle of the spectrum

Nick VinZant  21:09

Do you have to kind of when you're doing this, you know, adventure mountain photography, you have to have a lot of other kind of skills like rock climbing and mountaineering and stuff like that.

Paul Zizka  21:19

It certainly opens up a lot of possibilities to be able to get to get to those those places and to be able to access those angles. But I mean, there's a lot of people who shoot in the mountains full time, and they do exclusively roadside photography under body of work is absolutely incredible. So you definitely don't need to get into all those activities in order to create good mountain imagery, but there's certain angles certain perspectives that you can only you can't you'll only be able to document if you if you learn the basic you know, if you learn mountaineering and glacier travel and trouble. And if you're able to travel through steep rock, ice and snow,

Nick VinZant  22:04

biggest shot that you missed,

Paul Zizka  22:07

oh, there was there was a huge I remember I was on the I was on a glacier in Jasper Jasper National Park. And there was this huge avalanche coming down to biggest I've ever seen on snow dome. And I had I had a fellow photographer I was getting out with on a moraine in front of me. And right away my brain kind of identified the you know, the composition as having this huge amount of potential. And I, I had you know, of course, it was one of those moments where I had the I had the wide lens on, and then I thought, Oh my gosh, I should reach switch to telephoto, that would be the shot of the year for me. And I just thought well, by the time I switch to telephoto, the moment will be gone and unfortunately it was one of those moments where I hesitated for like Three seconds before I switched it on. And then I realized that the thing would actually have gone on for long enough for me to get the shot. But I didn't pull the trigger early enough. And there's, there's a lot of those, there's a lot of those moments where you know that that reminds you that maybe you're not quite as ready and adaptable a photographer, as you think you are, even though you've been doing it for a while you're, you're reminded that there's, there's always room for improvement. And I think part of it is just you know, you have to be able to appreciate a scene with your own eyes, as opposed to just seeing it through the camera all the time. And I think any sort of more experienced photographer will, will will. That's something that you'll hear from a lot of experienced photographers that sometimes is just accepting that, you know, I'm not even gonna bother, I missed this and I'm just gonna take it in with my own eyes and just go home with a memory

Nick VinZant  23:51

For somebody who's getting into photography, they're thinking about getting a camera or something like, not something like that, but they're thinking about getting a camera. I mean, is there Something about it that they should look for like you should get this guy and you should stay away from this.

Paul Zizka  24:07

Oh gosh, I think I think you're better off just going out there with a camera that's pretty basic that doesn't require a huge financial commitment and just take the time to figure out what appeals to you what what genres of photography you're really drawn to. And then you know if you figure out okay, I absolutely love Astro photography, then go drop, you know, a little bit of money on a on a really good fast lens or a camera that shoots well at at high ISO, or you know, if you're drawn to portraits, go get a great lighting kit, but I think so many people pour thousands of dollars in you know, I often teach people who are just starting and their gears way better than mine. And the the, they're, they have yet to figure out where their passion really lies within the realm of photography. So I would say you know, at first You really don't need a good a good setup to to figure out what you what you're really drawn to.

Nick VinZant  25:06

How do you feel when people take pictures with an iPad?

Paul Zizka  25:10

Ah, gosh, you know, I think whatever whatever device you have at your disposal is fine with me. I don't judge people who have iPads. It's there's just you can take absolutely beautiful photos with an iPad. There's just no way to be elegant doing it. That's the only thing but if people are okay with that, then that's fine with me.

Nick VinZant  25:34

Every my dad does it and every time I see him, I'm like, damn it, dad.

Paul Zizka  25:42

Yeah, it's amazing. You can spot the iPad from from a kilometer away. There's just yeah, there's just no, there's no way you can look like a cutting edge. You know, a badass photographer with an iPad in your hand.

Nick VinZant  25:54

That's pretty much all the questions I got. Is there anything else that you think we missed? what's coming up next for you?

Paul Zizka  26:01

what's coming up next, you know, we're just waiting for the dust to settle on this whole pandemic thing really, I think nobody really knows what the world of photography is going to look like on the other side of this. So what what we're doing at our end is just trying to be ready to try to be ready to act and respond quickly. Once we're once we have a glimpse into what that new landscape, what the landscape of the photo world would look like. But for now, we're just kind of being patient and just catching up on those those projects that have been on the back burner for a long time. I think that's what a lot of photographers do. And we're, we're going to be ready to hit the ground running when the the earth starts to spin again.

Nick VinZant  26:44

I want to thank Paul so much for joining us if you want to connect with him. We have linked to him on our social media accounts were profoundly pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You have to check out his Instagram just to see these pictures. Like there's a lot of good people pictures on Instagram. And then there's his pictures, which are a whole new level. And they're so inspiring. Because, yeah, these places that he goes to, are a little bit difficult to get to maybe really difficult to get to, but they're not impossible. Like you can get there too. So it's such a great, it's such a great source of inspiration.

UFO Investigator Tim Doyle

When people see something in the sky they just can't explain, he gets a call. UFO Investigator Tim Doyle joins us. We talk UFO sightings, aliens and Area 51. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Aliens.

Interview with UFO Investigator Tim Doyle of UFO Seekers

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, alien, ufo, dinosaurs, military, roswell, feel, ufo community, ate, happening, watching, sky, evidence, fly, ufos, talking, real, government, life

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant - Profoundly Pointless Host

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)

Note: This transcription is not 100% accurate. Please consult the episode if quoting

Nick VinZant  00:13

Hey everybody welcome to profoundly pointless My name is Nick coming up in this episode, we're going to go on a search for UFOs and then count down the top five fictional aliens.

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  00:25

We've been to area 51 we've been to Roswell and we pretty much spend our time now on a daily basis sky watching for UFO activity. She was driving in this year in the mountains at night and saw to basketball sighs dim dim lights. And right before it hits the windshield he like leans over swerves, it goes around the side of his car, like looking in the driver window and then just stays in the road and watches the car go by. And that's all he saw.

Nick VinZant  00:58

I want to thank You guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it. It really helps us out. I think like a lot of people I have always struggled with two big questions. Are we the only intelligent life that's out there? And how do you explain these things? That seemed like they just can't be explained like what's, what's really happening there. Our first guest is trying to answer those questions. This is Tim Doyle. He's a UFO investigator with the group UFO seekers. So when did you start looking for evidence of UFOs?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  01:41

Well, I guess in my personal life, probably would have been decades ago, when I was like a late teenager started diving into probably a lot of people's most famous first conspiracy book which was behind the pale horse and more recently, What people see publicly with UFO speakers that all started in 2016. And what had happened is just had some changes in my personal life and ended up moving to a different location in California, I moved to Bakersfield. And that's where I met my current partner in life. Tracy, and when we first started dating and hanging out, I guess you could say, about 45 minutes from our houses the Mojave Desert, Edwards Air Force Base, plant 42, the Air Force production plant. Vandenberg Air Force Base is like the other direction where they're doing rocket launches and missile tests and stuff like that. And the mountains here right next to our home like 15 minutes away, is also where they're doing military experiments. So like in 1986, an F 117. The stealth fighter before it was public actually crashed about 15 minutes from my house. Here. And so with all of that kind of military activity and strange stuff happening, then we just ended up started seeing things and I've simultaneously I developed a passion for finding the truth behind UFOs going out sky watching looking at the sky, and our content on YouTube kind of started to take off and people started watching and we started gaining subscribers. And that's kind of where we are now it's about three years later, and I've been to places like area 51 and Roswell Of course it's me and my partner Tracy so it's a we we've been Terry 51 we've been to Roswell and but we pretty much spend our time now on a daily basis sky watching for UFO activity, but mostly we spend our time just using camera equipment like military grade, night vision, optical cameras, full spectrum, stuff like that.

Nick VinZant  03:58

So when we're talking about it UFOs are we talking about aliens? Are we talking just about something that's in the sky that we can explain?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  04:06

You've literally just asked like the the kryptonite question. You know because if you watch you know television or you're talking to kind of a quote unquote like UFO celebrity, it's you know, very popular for people to say UFOs are real. And it's like a thing like this UFO is like a thing and it's real. Over the years, I've kind of tamed myself better and being what I would consider like a serious investigator. What I like to say is UFO sightings are real. So there are real people who see real observations in the sky. And those sightings are real things. Now, when we're talking about what those are, I tend to fall like to the military side. And if we wanted to put it like in statistics, I would go on record to say like 90 percent of things that people see are related to military, atmospheric phenomenon, private space programs, private contractor programs, but then there's still like 2% that people can't explain or maybe we don't know where they are if we wanted to go into a philosophical discussion, instead of just saying aliens, which is kind of what I consider, like a post modern view of aliens, because if we're looking back to like the early 1900s, and we're reading newspaper articles, or looking at people who would have debates or speculate on the topic of aliens, it was called Martians. And that's because like telescopes were evolving and we started getting closer and closer visually to seeing what was on Mars. People were expecting that these quote unquote aliens were Martians, and that's what everyone considered them was Martians. So if we want to get downlight into a philosophical discussion about what those unexplained things are, you know, to me, it could be a god, it could be the Creator, whoever created this, if it's a computer simulation, and they're running coding, and someone who's tasked with watching what is inside of the simulation, I mean, if they're inserting themselves into the coding, like we'd see in a movie like matrix, you know, maybe that light in the sky or a light that burns an object on the ground, maybe that's the watchers or the angels or whatever phasing in. So I really try not to get stuck to that postmodern, you know, Ancient Aliens History Channel version of what these aliens are, because I feel that's more of like I said, like a more modern Hollywood take on it. And I don't think it's that narrow. I think it's more broad. And like I said, being someone who believes in intelligent design because I don't believe that Something can come from nothing. I don't believe that order, and systematic repetitiveness comes from randomness. So I'm not a big believer in just random evolution, I believe that there's an intelligent design behind what we're looking at. And I really think that kind of gets overlooked when we're talking about these UFOs. And those things kind of parallel themselves.

Nick VinZant  07:23

So when you see something that that you feel like you can't explain, it's not the kind of traditional thought that somebody might have is like, oh, there's a little green man up there.

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  07:33

Correct. And in fact, it became, it almost became it's something I couldn't see before. So before I was a UFO investigator and spend time in the field, looking at the sky, capturing photos of things I thought were a UFO and then ran home just to find out it was a Janet flightline landing at area 51. One time we were sky watching, we caught an object to re entering the atmosphere. And burning up in the atmosphere. There was no explanation for it you could call it a UFO but four days later, we confirmed it was an Iridium communications satellite that had got retired and deorbited. So there's been so many times where I've seen something and kind of been disappointed you know, once it came to review, so I don't like to point straight to one answer over the other although there are strange things happening out there. For instance, right now Tracy and I have been investigating a sighting here in this year in Nevada mountains back in February of this year. He was driving in this year and about mountains at night and saw to basketball sighs dim dim lights like flying next to his vehicle. So this guy is driving through a mountain Canyon steep canyons and up above his car, 50 feet 100 feet and next to the car. He's He's to basketball. Side lights flying next to him. One comes down into the road in front of him while he's still driving full speed and then starts coming back towards him towards the windshield. And right before it hits the windshield, he like leans over swerves, it goes around the side of his car, like looking in the driver window, and then just stays in the road and watches the car go by. And that's all he saw. And so there are weird things happening like this. And trace Ian and I, the only weird thing we've really captured in our perspective within the same general area, and it was back in 2017. We were watching low flying jets practice and this year in about a mountains. Because we spend so much time in the field we kind of know where they fly and their practice routes. So we had spent time photographing jets, military jets, and later in the afternoon after they were done. We were randomly taking pictures all over the place. And upon review, we saw this spherical, cloudy type ball, like 20 to 40 feet in diameter, in rapid shot pictures in about a second, one second to come from out of the sky. And travel probably, I want to say like a fifth of a mile in a downward direction into a canyon, where there was people like camping. So these low fly jets will fly over people. You know, it's commonplace up here if you're local, and you know, we all know about it. But this was that same type of object and then add on top of that if people have watched our YouTube videos, there was a gentleman from the 80s that we covered, who gave us witness testimony, where he was fishing near Beale Air Force Base, which is north of us still in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, and him and his cousin were fishing and a spherical ball that was transparent and barely lit, floated right above their heads like 10 feet above their heads and just floated there, and then went out over the water and then up into the air. And I have more of these ball type sightings. So you know, out I never knew before there was like this UFO community. And so I am very hard to digest for a lot of these people, because I'm not willing to just jump off the cliff into a theory or to speculate on something. And I would be way more comfortable saying that these are military, because I know definitively, a military exists and I don't have definitive scientific proof of an alien that has been presented to me scientifically. So that's why, you know, we try to kind of waver towards the military perspective. But in saying that you can see how there are strange things happening which are very hard to explain

Nick VinZant  11:59

In your opinion. And how come when there is something that is hard to explain? Why does some people seem to go that this must be, you know, aliens or UFOs or anything like that, and other people just discount that? And say, no, this thing that you can't explain must have some explanation that's simple that we just don't know about, like, Why do people seem to react in such stark differences?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  12:25

Right, I think that's more of just primal, like our, our primitive, deep down belief systems. And it's deeper than just the UFO topic. It's almost similar to what you could say about partisan politics. Or if you're looking at a judgment in a court where you present evidence you always have like a 5050 split down the middle where one you know, people see one thing and others see another and unfortunately, I think the majority of us I be One of those people before I started this journey, who only look for reinforcing evidence to reinforce what we believe ourselves, you know, we're not looking, you know, dissenting evidence. And that's kind of who I am at heart is I am, unfortunately, like the guy who searches for the dissenting evidence. And when everyone's on one side of the ship, I'm kind of on the other. So you nailed it, though. That's, I mean, that's how it is, unfortunately, there are people who kind of monetize the reaching of the conclusion. And so they need to bring people along. And for those in the UFO community who no UFO seekers, we don't participate in like UFO conferences, you know, those big like celebrity conferences where people come to kind of hear your theories or they go through workshops, stuff like that. So just know that where I'm coming from, for you and your audience. We aren't the type that participate in that. We literally 100% just spend our time in the field, looking for UFOs activity, truth, what's going on at these military bases, we try to put it into the videos, and bring people that in reality, real scientists and people who take these things serious, who are constantly looking at the sky, and they aren't seeing the things that were shown on, you know, paranormal caught on camera on the travel channel. And all these shows, which tell us that there's something happening every second around every corner. And so we really have have tried hard by spending our time at these main facilities. To show people it's not so common place for these types of things to happen to help the UFO community find the real evidence, but it's providing this evidence to people to kind of help take away the ammunition of the well paid solution. He's out there who are on TV who kind of use people's belief systems to sell tickets.

Nick VinZant  15:08

When you get reports of UFO sightings? Is there a general pattern that they seem to follow?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  15:15

No, no, I wouldn't say so. There. There's so much different. Unfortunately, I think if you're a serious investigator, if someone wants to know what it's like, they should just watch cops or live PD. And kind of that same percentage is misleading. And I really hate to like tell people this, but I do consider myself serious. There are people who will lie. that's similar to when you're watching cops and they catch someone and the guy says like they're not my pants. When there's something like in his pants that he has on you and the guy is like, these aren't my pants. Like they're you still have that kind of similar percentage. So as a serious investigator, you really need to make sure that you're smart enough to hold back and not get yourself involved in what's being reported. And then finding those real ones like the one I told you about these basketball objects appearing next to the gentleman's vehicle, this guy called me for weeks. And I do that to these people. So there's, there's there have been scientists who have studied the topic of UFOs. For a long time, people should know, like, almost 70 years now. And so they've managed to kind of pick out the commonalities that exists in the UFO community, such as investigators, or people on social media or television who just promote everything. And that's a problem. Because then there's no look at what is serious and if you just promote everything, then everything has to be taken as real. And so we really try to slow down. We don't let people just say That's a picture and then we regurgitate it, because that's kind of where you end up promoting hoaxes. So for instance, in 2017 2018, there was this Peruvian mummy that was going around online, promoted by the biggest celebrities. One of the nation's top radio paranormal shows this Peruvian mummy that had been uncovered and it was an alien, it looked like an alien and it was getting promoted, like it was an alien and come to find out that it was actually a mummy that they had taken pieces of other things and actually created little bone structure pieces and attach them to this mummy and then taking pictures and taking video of it. So just that example, people can use to see that even high level individuals will lie and use the topic to make revenue or to get something or be famous or to get on a TV show. So you really have to be careful slowed down, and really pick out, you know, who you feel is telling you the truth. But still, I mean, you don't even know. This is one of those scariest topics I've ever been involved in. And people should know that you know, me and you have been talking about this alien question. And I'm really glad that you picked me to talk to you because now I'm going to make it dead serious for for people so they understand the military value of what we're doing. And it's something I didn't understand before. And I always wondered why a UFO investigator would like get killed by the men in black or would you know, disappear. Now, the true reality is with UFO sightings. The military is interested in these things because they could be military. I want people to think about Roswell and then think about that they've never heard of a foreign craft crashing on American soil. And I want them to think hard about how the government could keep you thinking that you're in a utopia and a foreign enemy could never Reach the United States soil and start thinking to yourself, how could the government use the topic of aliens or UFOs to kind of cover up things like that that might happen. And so intrinsically, UFO sightings are extremely valuable to the government. And that's where it becomes dangerous because what we're doing is going out and following around Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and they have all of these secret tests and operations going on. And inherently, you're capturing these operations going on Global Hawk testing, new UAS system testing. And so, so there's lots of secret military operations that are 50 years ahead that people don't know about. And so a lot of what is involved in these UFO sightings is that technology and people observing those things. Now, if you go back to 1960 s, and the SRS 71 the SRS 71 actually had an awesome autonomous drone that attached to the back of it and attached between the rear tail thin wings, the upward wings and the SRS 71, which was using self paint, right because stealth was actually invented in like 1941 by a scientist who created paint that could absorb radar frequencies or radio frequencies. And so the ASR 71, which was already stealth, and a stealth aircraft, could fly to about 70 to 90,000 feet and had an autonomous drone that looked just like a third SRS 71 engine and would detach, and using radio control in the 60s, the government would fly this thing autonomously. So now I want people to take that into perspective, and how far beyond our thinking the government in the military is, and that's a lot of what we're looking at here. So it's not just about being stuck to this alien question. It's not just being stuck to the creators of whatever we're looking at and until And design. It's also being extremely wary of the government in the military and what they're doing out there, because that's what we're seeing.

Nick VinZant  21:08

Are you ready for the harder slash listeners submitted questions?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  21:14

I am ready. Totally ready.

Nick VinZant  21:16

What did you think of the storming of area 51 that was going on that whole topic that kind of rose to prominence last year, or was it? Is it last year's this year? Last year, right.

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  21:27

I think was last year. Time is moving so fast. Now.

Nick VinZant  21:31

What did you see? What did you think as you kind of saw that built up or build up rather?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  21:36

Yeah. See, and that's, we weren't fans of that happening at all, like zero percent. I mean, I don't mean to get harsh about it, but I'm going to get harsh about it. You know, to me, I viewed it as a terrorist attack, like a domestic terrorist attack on an Air Force specific facility and I view it as extremely dangerous. You Promoting such activity to the public. But that's what happens. When celebrities are telling people things exist. They're definitively. I mean, the whole reason people were there was because there's a Las Vegas journalist who calls himself a journalist who was telling people, zeta particular aliens have been in area 51 for decades and had been here on earth for 10,000 years. So it's not hard to think that the public or people who take them serious because they said they're serious, to want to go find out these things. I mean, especially the impact on society. If you unveiled into Alien Evidence, it would change religion, our perspective on the university would change science, it would help the poor with the alien technology. So it makes sense that people would want to go retrieve that. So that's why we're very cautious. In fact, people would probably Look at the content I have online and frown upon it because there's lots of video pictures, the military facilities. But it never comes with negativity towards the military as if those people are hiding something from me. Obviously, I think the leadership in the military makes bad decisions are the ones who have secrets. I really think the military just burns our money and has tons of technology that would change our economy in a good way. I think the military has trillions upon trillions of dollars is spent on underground facilities. I have family members who've been in them. They have railroads, they have freeways. They have cities underground that no one knows about. And that's where all the budgets went. And so it's those things that I feel are very concerning. And I wish that the passion that people had towards picking out that Alien Evidence from area 51 would be point Towards the government and the policies of the military and what they're doing with this money.

Nick VinZant  24:05

Do you think when you look at some of the kind of well known kind of alien sighting, UFO sighting, things that have happened throughout history, you know that people know about the Phoenix lights, Roswell? Do any of those kind of stand out as you as being real

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  24:21

Oh, I don't actually think that one was real, or haven't has an easy explanation and people No, I think both aren't real. I will tell you right now they both aren't real. People can go look at the Roswell testimony. Okay, first off, they need to stop listening to people who weren't there. And if they want to listen to someone who was at Roswell, they should read Mack Basil's testimony that exists in the newspaper. And now what most people won't tell you was Brazell had already found two weather balloons on his property. So if we're going to go to Roswell, Mack Brazell was out There he was around and just like where I live in Bakersfield, no different. Okay, it's an agriculture a ranch cattle place. Same thing here in Bakersfield. And so this really nice guy. Mack Brazell is just a ranch hand and he's out moving cattle. And he finds this is written in the newspapers, brass balls testimony. So don't believe anybody else go pull the newspapers or you can go on my website and read the newspapers. Brazell himself says that he came across sticks and a foil foil looking material. Nothing more than like three feet in size. No burning, no fire. No. No depression from a heart impact crash. He literally just found materials, these little twigs sticks and an aluminum foil type material spread out throughout shrubbery and brushes. So Brazell collects them. puts them like in a ball and stuffs them under a bush. And so Brazell brother in law tells him about this reward of $5,000 for pieces of a Martian UFO. Martian spaceship, because that's what everyone thinks it is. And that's when Brazell takes his family back with his kids and they go and collect this, the sticks in this brush some of them and then they call the Roswell Sheriff who comes out. They go they pick up some more of it, then they call the Roswell military guy. They come out they take it to the Roswell military guy, and it's an Army Intelligence Officer. Okay. Brazell in the newspaper articles. tells the military guy this is not a UFO. I don't say nothing. I don't want to say it's anything. I found these pieces. I'm an American and I want to help my government. Here are the pieces of this thing and I found on a ranch. Plus there's a reward. If it's something the Army Intelligence Officer destroy Brazil's life Brazzaville, his family and the ranch owners who own the ranch and kills the entire world, they found a flying disc, and just leaves it at that. So the government completely threw him under the bus. Because White Sands Missile Range is right there. And they didn't want anybody looking. And they didn't want anybody looking at the sky anymore. To see the supersonic jet technology they were creating. I mean, it was 62. They were already flying the X 52 space. And that's what they're trying to stop people from from looking. They want you to believe the guy on TV, who tells you the gray aliens are everywhere, because they don't want you to go to Edwards Air Force Base, and look at their airplanes and kind of help this disinformation. I mean, if we're looking at the Phoenix lights, it's a flare. It's literally like eight flares, right? You're looking at a video of the mountain and you're watching eight flares or however many it is. I don't know the number offhand. I'm just guessing. Falling down behind the mountain. I mean, am I crazy? I feel like I move got to and Zoo lander, and I'm going all the looks look the same. I mean Blue Steel Magnum, it's the same look. And I'm looking at the Phoenix lights going, Hey, these are just flares falling behind a hillside. But you do have like this hysteria that gets built up. And so there's an investment in the marketing behind these sightings. If there ever is kind of a little green man, so to speak, that just appears on a press conference one day that like everything is confirmed. What do you think happens to society? Well, honestly, I don't think anything changes. I mean, Star Trek has already been running for. Since what the late 60s. I honestly I don't think anything changes at all. The only thing that's going to change is technology. And that's the good part about it. So I don't I don't view aliens. extraterrestrials as a negative thing are a threat. Sometimes I even wonder if they just look like you and me, Nick. Like, who's not to say that we fly out into the universe and land on a planet, and they just look like us? I mean, who's to say it's not just farther back and there's dinosaurs there? Why does it have to be always this gross, distorted looking scary. communists never wears any clothing so they all look the same and are branded the same type of alien races. And that's what really doesn't make sense to me. And anyone who's watched Star Trek First Contact there,it's so funny because they they put two different versions of when the Vulcans first came down because the humans made warp drive, and the Vulcans were flying by and detected the warp signature. And so the Vulcans flew down to earth and came to see who made the warp engine and talk to them, because that was unlocking of the next step to traversing the universe. And there was Two different versions when the Vulcans landed. And one was when the Vulcan came out of the spaceship, the people attacked him. And then there was another version, where everyone was excited to see them and the warp drive inventor went up and shook their hand and initiated first contact. And so I really see, you know, those two separate sides, we have people who consider this a threat and want you to attack the Vulcans. And then we have other people who want to embrace the diversity of the universe. And and let's see what's out there.

Nick VinZant  30:31

Anything else you think that we've missed, or anything else that you'd like to add or anything like that?

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  30:36

You know, a lot of the times I feel like the Grim Reaper. It's like, you know, 99.9% of the people I meet, think I'm a full believer because this is what we do. Investigating UFO sightings. I'm a full believer in the alien that exists now. And I just, I don't want people to view me as the Grim Reaper where I'm Destroying series, their beliefs, or other speculative beliefs. There are strange things happening. No one has an answer. I just really want people to know to look for evidence. So when someone tells you that in Egyptian pyramid was made by an alien race, all I ask is that you look for the proof of the aliens doing it. You know, the UFO community is a joke. And it's a joke to society. I know because I drive around a car with UFO seekers on it. And I get left constantly. And I work every day to try to change that perspective and that point of view by teaching people and educating people, such as in this discussion we're having right now, and that is going to lead us to the real truth.

Nick VinZant  31:51

Do you think that more people believe I'll use this very broad springing but do you think that more people kind of believe that there is something else Whatever that's something else could possibly be out there then would let on say make fun of the UFO secret car but secretly also believe that something could exist.

Tim Doyle (UFO Seekers)  32:11

Oh, yeah.Oh yeah hundred percent and being philosophical type person like I am. You know, I'm looking at why they're laughing. They're laughing because what I'm searching for is a threat to their belief system.

Nick VinZant  32:24

I want to thank Tim so much for joining us if you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media accounts were profoundly pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information on the RSS feed that's in this podcast. You can also check out his YouTube channel. And there you'll see some of the videos that he's talking about. I think just going back and forth in that conversation. It's I think it's such a fine line. Because there was definitely times where I felt like oh, I don't know about that man. But there was also times where I thought you might be right. And that's such a fine line. And that's why I think that ultimately when we're talking about a subject like this, something where you really can't maybe fully explain it, and it just comes down to what somebody believes. It does ultimately tell you so much about that person based on what they believe, like a believer is going to believe. And a skeptic is just going to push it aside. And I think that you can probably extrapolate that throughout so many other things in their life as well.

Opera Singer Isabel Leonard

She has a voice that can move you to tears. Grammy Award winner Isabel Leonard is one of the most in-demand Opera Singers in the world. We talk Opera, finding your voice, pop stars who can really sing and her Karaoke skills. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Music Genres. 

Interview with Opera Singer Isabel Leonard

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

sing, opera, people, singers, hear, music, voice, silverware, sounds, listen, opera singer, thought, gator tail, screamo, longitude, song, country, call, feel, pretty

SPEAKERS

Nick VinZant – Profoundly Pointless podcast host

Isabel Leonard – Opera Singer

Nick VinZant  00:13

Hey everybody welcome to profoundly pointless My name is Nick coming up in this episode, we're gonna go to the opera and counting down the top five genres of music.

Isabel Leonard  00:24

And that was pretty terrifying you know, I was there on stage by myself singing the one Aria that my character had and that was it. It was like sink or swim go. One of the strongest connections you know, from human to human is the voice and is the the transmission of emotion through I always say one animal cry to the other. You know, you're hearing you're hearing like emotion and words all tied up into one and coming out with this sort of soaring sound.

Nick VinZant  00:55

I want to thank you guys so much for joining us. If you get a chance like Download, subscribe, share. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. I think the best way to introduce our first guest is to hear her sing. This is Grammy Award winning opera singer Isabel Leonard, when did you know that you could really sing?

Isabel Leonard  01:52

I think there's sometimes there's this. This thought that opera singers are just sort of like found with these big voices. That's not exactly always the case. I think sometimes they're found if they've been training and nobody knew about them in the first place. But generally, you know, opera singers come to, come to this world, like any other singer does, you know, musical theater or pop or jazz or any of those things is that they start because they can sing and they can carry a tune. And then they get into the genres that they like, and then they go on training and learning to sort of vocal technique and style that is, that is connected to the genre, right? That they're that they're singing. So I mean, like, as an example, you know, I I went in high school, I was of course, singing a lot of musical theater. And I could have gone to cap 21, which was the NYU musical theater program or Juilliard, and I chose Juilliard because I thought, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm going to want to have a really solid vocal technique. I think this is where I'm going to be able to get that technique. And so I went there. had I gone to cap 21 I probably would have been in musical theater world. It's like, I knew I could sing and then it was What I'm going to do with my voice, I wasn't entirely sure, in the very beginning, I just knew that I wanted to have a good technique so that I could then later make those choices.

Nick VinZant  03:08

So it's not as if an opera singer just has this fundamentally amazing voice. It's more of a training slash career interest kind of thing.

Isabel Leonard  03:18

You know, ultimately, at the end of the day, it's like those 10,000 hours that you put in, it's really it's, I think, at its fundamental it is training muscles. And I just think that yeah, it's finding people that kind of have the raw gift and then kind of building from that point.

Nick VinZant  03:32

So what kind of like for the training what, what do you do?

Isabel Leonard  03:35

Well, I mean, vocal training looks a little different probably for everybody. I mean, we do things like we do, we have vocal exercises, right? It could be as simple as singing scales and doing breath exercises where you learn how to take a very deep breath and in the correct way that allows you to have a free we call it a free voice like free singing where You're not using your neck muscles to control the sound that you're creating, that you're really singing from your, your full body. And we have all sorts of things that we do, you know, as a teacher, because I teach as well, but there are so many things that you can do with students to sort of help them get to that place. But it's not like you say to a student here, do this, and then all of a sudden they do it. And it's better, right? It takes hours and years of practicing this until it becomes a habit until this sort of muscle memory kicks in. And it becomes a habit, you know, as you think of Tiger Woods and his swing, right, this swing is broken up into so many different parts, right? It's the same thing was singing, you have like the inhalation at the beginning. And then you have your exhalation which is really when you're singing, and then all the things that are attached to the singing like the articulators of your mouth, which are going to say, and say the words and make the different vowels and consonants and things that you've had that we have to do it right in order to communicate language. And again, I always I always refer back to the athletes I think it's kind of an easier way to see that it's actually quite the same. The biggest difference is that there's less visual when you're teaching somebody like a singer, that you can point out to the public because it's all happening inside the voice. Right? So, unlike with an athlete, you could look at, you know, a basketball player, a golf pro, or whatever. And you can watch them go through their process and go through a day of training. And you could see very specifically, the movements they make with their body that are supposed to help them get better. With it, you can do this with a lesson and I just think it's a lot more subtle. So it doesn't it's not always as as blatant as what we're doing right.

Nick VinZant  05:42

So what was it about opera that drew it that drew you to it?

Isabel Leonard  05:46

I sort of fell into opera. I went when I went to Juilliard. Like I said, I wanted to, I wanted to have a good technique. That was my first and foremost goal was to get a good singing technique, and then a Juilliard was a classical based education we did a lot of, we started off course, like everybody was the Italian art songs and we which is this good basically a book of like it sounds Italian songs that are used. Traditionally, when you're learning how to sing when you're learning about technique, it would be like, you know, somebody learning how to really do a correct walk, you know, or like, in learning how to run properly and run efficiently in any sport so that that basic thing is really well taken care of, right. It's the sort of the same idea. And it Juilliard. It was a lot of the classical music. And, of course, we worked on operas, and and all this this classical repertoire, and I sort of fell into it from that point, I did my undergrad and once I was entrenched four years into that I stayed, I did my masters, I was lucky enough to be able to go back for my masters. And by that point, I was really, you know, fully entrenched in the opera world.

Nick VinZant  06:57

How do you get an opera part? Do you? Is it an audition? Is it like, it's not like a job application or something like how does it work?

Isabel Leonard  07:05

No, they're all auditions. Once you get to a certain level, you generally if you're lucky, you stop auditioning. And the companies will come to you or your manager and they'll say, Hey, we're doing this production in a year or two years time can and is she available for this role? Would you like to sing this role? Here are the dates. A lot of times, you know, you might want to do it, you might not be free. And so then those are the negotiations that go in into that. And in the beginning, when you're a young artist, you, you know, you basically try to stay in school kind of as long as you can, because you're developing and unlike, again, unlike athletes, this time, singers develop a lot later, I would say like into your mid 30s is when singers really come into their own and really figure out their vocal technique. And so that's kind of a ways to wait. So singers tend to go from their master's program if they went to a master's program into things that we call young artists. programs or apprenticeship programs, and lots of big opera companies in the United States and all over really have these programs like, they're really I really like the word apprenticeship. Because at that point you're older, you're know, you're in your mid to late 20s, perhaps, and you're working for a company. And you're getting, you're still getting coachings, and you're working on your voice and you're doing maybe scenes from opera is not full operas. But if you're lucky, you also get to sing the small roles in the mainstage OPERS, with the mainstage singers that come in as guest artists throughout the seasons. And so then you're really learning a lot, you know, trial by fire, so to speak,

Nick VinZant  08:37

the fact that singers kind of come into their own a little bit later, is that because of a physical reason, like there's the body, does the voice change, or is it just being practiced enough in it?

Isabel Leonard  08:48

You know, that's a really good question. I actually am not entirely sure if it is something to do with the musculature if it has to do with the development of the vocal cords. Perhaps the vocal cords may mature continue to mature into the 30s more than we realize, I think that singing it's such a finer muscle training that perhaps it just takes longer to finesse the coordination of the of the whole thing I do know Like for example, I sounded not so different but quite different in tambor from when I was in my early 20s, mid 20s to like what I do now, and a lot of that has to do with use that has to do with you know, use and experience and just muscle muscular usage, but it has to do with hormonal changes and shifts in the body and getting older and, you know, like, again, like any muscle in the body, the vocal cords are a muscle and they are, they will be subject to what the body is subject to.

Nick VinZant  09:55

What was that first kind of big performance like for you? What do you remember about it?

Isabel Leonard  10:00

You know, when you're when you're a singer, and if you're going to, let's say, an artist program, you're performing little things here and there. And you're, you know, there's never really, for most people, it isn't like all of a sudden you weren't doing performances, and then all of a sudden, you have this one big show, right? And you have all of a sudden started, it usually starts in smaller ways than that you start with a little concert here or scenes program. I was very fortunate that for me, I was able to start working really soon. And I was able to sing sort of like the equivalent of like, supporting actress roles in the sort of the second kind of like the Second Lady roles in most of the shows that I was doing. And so I was able to go in as a guest artist and sing these roles. And I was I was thrown into the deep end of the pool very, very quickly, in my career and in relatively unusual path for singers. But I debuted at the Met I think I was either 25 or 26. I was really young. And it came out from a recital that I had done in New York. My manager who I had also met pretty young, had invited Peter gal who is the general manager of the Met to my recital. And at the end of the recital, he told me that he had been there. And then from that recital, he hired me, basically for the following 15 seasons met. And so that was really, I mean, that was like, it was lucky, but it was being prepared right place, right time and having some great people supporting me along the way. And so I was able to debut in that house very, very quickly. And that was pretty terrifying. You know, I was there on stage by myself, singing the one Aria that my character had, and that was it. It was like sink or swim go.

Nick VinZant  11:41

Is opera. Is it kind of a cutthroat world? Is it really competitive? Or what's it like?

Isabel Leonard  11:48

You know, I stay away from all that kind of nonsense. So if it is I wouldn't have noticed. I just don't play into people's insecurities and problems and Because I think as performing artists, we have so many of them as it is on our own, that the last thing you need is to add anything else to it. We, I would say that amongst my friends and myself and the people that are in my close circle who are in the business, we're all very supportive of each other. And we're all extremely aware that, that everybody's different, you know, everybody's voice is like their thumbprint, completely unique, very much their own. And everybody has a different way of telling stories and of singing. And the best way I think, to get through any kind of performing art career is to not be in direct competition to the person next to you because there's actually no growth there because it's jealousy. It's frustration, right? But if you're in competition with yourself, like to continuously do a better job or to continuously study and hone on your technique and do all those things. And that's, that's good. I think that's really good.

Nick VinZant  12:56

So I seem to see kind of two different kinds of things of what means As a person with no knowledge would consider to be opera one where there's somebody that's just standing and singing in front of a microphone. And then another word seems to be almost like a play, or those both the same thing or what's, what's the difference there?

Isabel Leonard  13:15

Well, so technically in opera, we do not use a microphone ever.

Nick VinZant  13:19

Really?

Isabel Leonard  13:21

No, no, no, yeah, that's the whole thing. It's an acoustic, it's an acoustic art form. So there are no mics in opera. And so if you hear an opera singer in front of a microphone, there's usually a reason for that they're probably in a venue that is way too big or outdoors. Or it's a broadcast of some sort, you know, they need different sound sound levels, right. So, yeah, so and I would say, These days, opera is definitely a singing play. It is people on stage, you know, moving and in costume and acting and telling the story that is the opera, Vice singing in an opera. They're constructed different You know there, there are offers in which the characters sing all the time. There are operas in which there's a little bit of dialogue. We have their structural things in the music they have our arias right and our duets and things like then trios and stuff. As well as something that we call Reggie tattoos. And it's a basically a reciting reciting of text and it tattooed is when you sing text. Now, you would say, well, that's what you're doing anyway, right? It's like, yes, yes, it is. Singing text all the time. But a lot of times in the recitation as we shorten them to say rested, because we shorten everything in the opera world. We never say anything fully. We'll never say like Don Giovanni will just be like, Dungy, or like, or we'll just say, or we'll just say like Giovanni instead of saying because even today, we'll just say because he do a lot of that kind of thing. So but the rescue team is usually when the if there were to be dialogue in a show, that would have been the dialogue itself. Time is still some right but it is more free, musically and rhythmically so usually the rest of it is done with a harpsichord playing chords, and then the singer singing their text, essentially over these chords to notes that are written down in the music, but their rhythm is a little bit freer. So there are a lot more open to interpretation of a singer and they can be a lot of fun. So we have I would say in the opera world we do operas, full staged operas, costumes, lights, orchestra everything. We have concerts in orchestra and Symphony halls in which we stand at the front of the stage in front of a giant orchestra or Symphony. And we work we do different pieces there. Usually we don't sing opera will sing concert repertoire, which is different, or will sing, or retort to some, you know, so sometimes you're seeing religious work or non religious work or you'll sing. Sometimes there are songs that were written by composers that they also set to an orchestra and you can do those with an orchestra as well as with piano For a recital, for example. So there's a lot of like, really fun permutations within the music that we sing. And they can sort of translate into those different, you know, opera stage concert stage recital stage venues.

Nick VinZant  16:13

What do you have to do to care for your voice?

Isabel Leonard  16:17

Well, you Well, not over abuse it. I would say, not yelling. Not not screaming and yelling, not over over singing. Having a good technique is, you know, tiring, and I don't know, I try not to be too neurotic about my voice.

Nick VinZant  16:37

Like after a longer performance or a regular performance. Can you talk normally or do you like wear it out or anything?

Isabel Leonard  16:44

No, no, no. I think if you're wearing your voice out after a show, you're doing something wrong. I would say that After After Show, generally, singers and particularly because it's so late and we probably haven't eaten since. three in the afternoon. We all tend to go get some food. The thing is to go to a quiet restaurant is really ideal. The biggest issue again, is going to like a very loud place loud restaurant loud bar. Because that's really detrimental for a singer, especially if they and even more so if they have to sing like the next day. Right? So it's one thing if you just sang a show and I got a loud bar, it's like, maybe you have the next day to recover. It's still not a good idea. But it's better than for example, like if you were to say, hey, let's go to dinner the night before your show, I would be like,

Nick VinZant  17:29

Are you ready for the harder slash listener submitted questions?

Isabel Leonard  17:34

Yeah.

Nick VinZant  17:34

Is your voice insured?

Isabel Leonard  17:38

Yes.

Nick VinZant  17:39

How much is like how much do you ensure a voice for Can I ask?

Isabel Leonard  17:44

Ya know. I don't I don't really know. I mean, it's it's one of those things that I started, I think, I think, I think I'm thinking harder about it. Now, I think it is insured. I mean, we're talking basically about disability insurance, right? Because it's my it's my career. So it's it's basically it's disability insurance and you try to insure your voice for what you're making, you know, through the course of your life, hopefully, and because God forbid, you have to stop short. And what are you gonna do? Right? It's like it would be like an athlete would do the same thing. a pianist will insure their hands. violinists will insure their hands. They will all musicians will do this, because it's their livelihood. I mean, this is serious stuff.

Nick VinZant  18:24

You know, it's one of those things, I guess it sounds a certain way. But then when you think about, it's like, oh, that's makes complete sense. And I would do the exact same thing.

Isabel Leonard  18:33

Of course, I think when you realize, you know, I think that's one of those things is that there's still stigmas, you know, behind becoming a musician, you know, and I remember even in college, I had friends whose parents were very supportive and I had friends whose parents were not supportive at all right? And they were like, you're never gonna have a good enough career or like, you're never gonna make enough money and it's, it's really tricky, right. And I also think that it's very difficult in this country, right, our, our music, you know, the arts are They're not government subsidized, like they are in Europe. And so it is a difficult business, I think in this country, you have to be a savvy business person, and you have to, you have to figure out how not to be taken advantage of, and how to save your money. And for for all of us, we're all independent contractors, you know, we, we pay quarterly taxes we have, we're an independent contractor status. So this whole thing now with COVID, and all of us being out of work has been very tricky for people, because they may be able to file for unemployment in one of the states that they worked in. But the companies themselves aren't going to pay us unemployment because we are not employees of the opera companies that we work at, because we work at so many. So there's a lot of it's a real big issue. So when you think of it that way, and then you'd go Did you ensure your voice like hell yes. Yeah.

Nick VinZant  19:51

Right. Yeah. What is the hardest opera to sing?

Isabel Leonard  19:55

Oh, I have no idea. I don't know how to answer that question because it's different for everybody. That's like asking the questions. What's your favorite opera? Those are the kinds of questions that we all kind of go don't start asking me.That's all. I know. But here's my question to you. Why do you want to know?Like, if I were to say to you, here's my favorite and here's my hardest would that make you more? Would you go and listen to that one? Probably right? Maybe,

Nick VinZant  20:24

I think maybe from like a lay person's perspective. It gives me like an an idea of a new appreciation of what I'm really looking at or listening to.

Isabel Leonard  20:37

Yeah, Interesting. Interesting. I guess. I guess I've always, you know, those questions are hard, because, again, you know, we are constantly evolving, and we're constantly changing as artists and our techniques are constantly evolving. So, you know, the first five years of my career, I could have said, I definitely find this particular role to be difficult. But then five years later, it's not so difficult, right. It changes So, so my answer to be honest with that question of like, what's your favorite or what's what do you think is the hardest opposite for me in terms of favorite, it's whatever it is that I'm working on. So and I really get entrenched in the piece that I'm working in, I'm focused in on it. And in order to play these characters, honestly, I really feel like you have to be in it and you have to be loving what you're doing. You'd have to kind of love the character you're playing, no matter what kind of character they are, but you have to love who they are, and and go with that, as her hardest opera. I mean, hardest maybe technically vocally.I'd have to think about it. I mean, Marnie was really hard. This piece that I did this Nico muli piece that I did. That's been streaming for the last 24 hours on the met on live demand. Live on demand, sorry, it was like Yoda speaking. Met live on demand at midnight. The that's on their website and that was a contemporary opera written by Camila who's a contemporary of mine, very gifted, gifted, gifted composer. That's a very hard thing. Technically, technically very hard sing very difficult notes to find. Very modern, very difficult. So yeah, I mean, I would say, okay, that could be an answer. That could be a hard, a hard piece. But again, I think in retrospect, I look back and everything has its challenges and everything has easy moments.

Nick VinZant  22:24

How do you feel about people doing karaoke? Can you listen to it or does it bother?

Isabel Leonard  22:31

That is hilarious. I will listen to people. I have no problem with karaoke. Just don't ask me to do it. You won't.

Nick VinZant  22:39

Yeah, wonder like what's that like for you? If somebody say doesn't know what should they try to? They try to get you up. They're like,

Isabel Leonard  22:47

Yeah, no, I just don't, I can't. I can't. I just don't know enough like pop culture, songs like with all the music that I know is probably coming from I mean, aside From the upper world comes from like from the 1930s to the 1960s. And so I don't really I can do some of it like 70s 80s and 90s things, but I'm just not very good at it. So I'm like, you know, it's totally fine. I can leave it to somebody else. I can sit here and watch. It's not a big thing for me. Personally, I have friends who love it, who are an opera world and who love it and get a kick out of it. So

Nick VinZant  23:22

can a lot of people can they not sing because they just fundamentally like you just don't have the voice, your voice? Isn't that great? Or do they just not know how to do it?

Isabel Leonard  23:32

That's a really good question. I don't Okay, so now I don't have like a scientific answer, which I wish I did, because I think it will be good to have one. But I do know that so much of singing and has to do with just matching pitch, right? And I think when when kids are little This is when you teach them to match pitch matching pitches, just an aural skill. Like aural right is our ear. It's a matter of hearing something and then replicating that sound, which is something that babies do. Do anyway, right because they learn how to speak. And they learn how to create the sounds in the language that their mother or father, whoever is taking care of them is speaking to them, right. And all of those things happen through the ear. And then they create the shapes and the sounds that they need to create with their mouth and their tongue in order to replicate those sounds. So, in my mind, I would think that with enough, we call it ear training. You could get somebody to match pitch if they were perhaps before having trouble matching pitch. Now, could you get that same person to go from a situation in which they weren't matching pitch to them singing on an opera stage? Maybe, I don't know. I've never tried. I mean, that can be fun. It can be good, you know, reality TV crazy show. But I think that there's so much of it has to do with the being an active listener and trying to match pitch. I mean, that's the basic right? That's the very first step of the whole thing.

Nick VinZant  25:04

It does seem like a lot of it would be able to hear the difference. And I think that for me is an untrained person who knows, like, I can't hear the difference necessarily.

Isabel Leonard  25:15

hear the difference between

Nick VinZant  25:18

pitch like I don't, I couldn't tell you if I was I don't even know what, where to even begin.

Isabel Leonard  25:25

That's really interesting. That's like, did you sing as a child? like did you sing at school or anything? Like did your parents ever say?

Nick VinZant  25:32

No, but that yeah, that the ability has skipped the VinZant family by a long way,jumped over it by miles.

Isabel Leonard  25:44

That's hilarious.

Nick VinZant  25:45

Some of the other ones that we got.Best Movie about an opera singer.

Isabel Leonard  25:53

Best Movie about an opera singer. I don't use they're a movie about AI are there even movies about it? Here's I mean, I feel like Julianne Moore just did the bell contem movie and it was so she's played an opera singer. It wasn't really about an opera singer. Um, um, I would go and watch the callus documentary that was just made. It was pretty fantastic. And she's really interesting. She's got her obviously a really interesting history. You know, Meryl Meryl Streep just made this movie. What was it called? She was playing. They call this woman like the worst opera singer she could so here's a situation like she could not sing into this woman. But she loved opera. She very much loved opera and anyway is a real story. But Meryl Streep was playing this woman is very funny movie. But it's not exactly. You know. It's not exactly showing what the actual you know, trained kardex you know, opera singer is doing right. It's just this one, this one particular story so many of it that you know, juxtaposed with the kahless documentary can be really fun.

Nick VinZant  27:08

Can you shatter glass? Can you shatter glass with your voice?

Isabel Leonard  27:13

Ah, I don't I have never done it. I feel like it's gotta be possible, right? Because we're just talking about vibration if you get if you get maybe a thin enough glass, a crystalline enough glass perhaps right that because again, it's just vibration, right? So you know how if you like when you look at a rock concert, right and you the speakers are vibrating, you know, because the bass is so loud and you can feel a vibration in your chest. It's because what's happening is your tissues are vibrating at the same rate that the music is playing, right that those vibrations are coming in so loud, because vibration is sound waves and sound waves travel through the air. They actually right. So there's in my brain, I'm thinking Why not? If that's the sound wave that travels through air, if I'm singing very closely to stained glass, and I'm singing, I have to find the right pitch. That's the other thing, you'd have to find the right pitch that would make that glass and vibrate, right? Because every object has a vibration point. I think, I don't know how to explain this scientifically, but every object can vibrate at a certain frequency. And so if you find that frequency, and I bet if you sing it loud enough, you could probably make

Nick VinZant  28:27

sounds. Sounds like you just did it.

Isabel Leonard  28:31

I dropped one of my son's trucks. I'm sorry. Yeah, and I'm thinking you maybe if you were lucky enough, right next door glass, maybe you could probably good

Nick VinZant  28:41

acoustically speaking which theater was your favorite?

Isabel Leonard  28:46

Oh, it's a good question. There are so many good theaters out there and there's so many great acoustics as well. I don't know if I have one favorite. This last season before everything. shut down. I had performed Where did I go? I was actually at the Detroit Symphony. They have a fantastic Hall. Cincinnati has a fantastic Hall. I love singing in San Francisco and I've sung there many times and I adore the symphony. I mean, the Met I gotta tell you the Met has a fantastic acoustic and is a huge house but isn't fantastic acoustic. And let's see what else there are lots of actually there are some really great great halls, especially the symphony halls, the ones where the orchestras play. Those are really great. And then in Europe, you've got all these wonderful jewel house we call them like jewel house opera theatres because they're a little bit smaller. You know, they're not as massive as the Met for example. And they're beautiful, of course, and they're old and architectures beautiful and some of them have like all this gold inlay and the walls and it's just you know, these stunning, that's why they're called jewel boxes, right? You kind of it's like if you'd open the lid it would just be this shiny. Beautiful box. And a lot of those tend to have great acoustics also, just cuz they're just naturally smaller, right? You don't have to worry too much about singing into this huge space.

Nick VinZant  30:12

What do your neighbors think of you? Do the you annoy them with your singing?

Isabel Leonard  30:18

I hope not. If I'm annoying people by singing, I better stop. No, actually, we are very close friends with our next door neighbor and she likes it. She likes it when I practice. So she's always very happy. So he's very happy. I always get a text from her after I've been practicing one day she's like, I heard you. But you know, everybody's different. And it depends on where you live. And I would say that singers are very respectful of, you know, the kind of practicing that they have to do. And you know, it's we're no less or more annoying than having somebody sing musical theater or jazz or anything else. Because if the voice is good, and the voice is good, if the voice is not so great, then it's a little annoying, right? Just like if you're listening to a clarinetist play the same way If over and over again and they kept on like honking away at it. Now that would get annoying, but if they were a beautiful clarinetist, you would listen to that all day. Right?

Nick VinZant  31:07

something that I've always wondered about and I'm, I'm not a big music person I kind of never have been. But there is something about an opera singer or something about somebody who can really seen that can almost bring me to tears. Like what is that? Why do you think that is?

Isabel Leonard  31:25

I mean, I personally think that there is one of the strongest connections you know, from human to human is the voice and is the the transmission of emotion through I always say one animal prior to the other, you know, you're hearing you're hearing like emotion and words all tied up into one and coming out with this sort of soaring sound. And it's, it's extremely touching. You know, it's, it's why we love Frank Sinatra sing in New York, New York. You know, we will have you know, we listen to you We have all of these iconic voices from history and that we hear and we know who they are right without even they don't even have to be singers performers you know you think like Martin Luther King you hear his voice you know it's him. You know you hear I'm trying to think some other people off the top of my head but i think you know what I mean right? Yeah. Your voice is so identifiable and I think because of that you can immediately be drawn in and feel close and feel heard and feel feel touched and almost feel like that person is singing directly to and for you only. And I think that that's what singing really does and can do. It's just this it's like one wolf crying out to another wolf. Across the forest. They hear each other and they feel each other and, and they are communicating.

Nick VinZant  32:50

Favorite none opera song to sing.

Isabel Leonard  32:53

Oh favorite non opera songs say that's Good question. I mean, I love I love all the ladies of Gershwin like ladies of jazz. I used to sing in the jazz band when I was in high school and I love all the standards. I love all those.

Nick VinZant  33:13

You don't have to. You don't have to name any names. Can can pop singers sing? Are they good singers or not?

Isabel Leonard  33:20

Yeah. Yeah, there are some that are really good singers. Totally. I think like Ariana Grande is a great singer. I think she can sing really well. I think I've always really surprised like when I hear a pop singer who really has a lot of vocal freedom, and it's usually the ones that when they get on to like a talk show or something and they don't have like auto tune and they're not on recording and they're not, you know, on a mic where there's all these other things going on, and they all of a sudden sing something and you really hear their voice. And it is exactly how you've been hearing it in recordings and you go Aha, you know, like that's for real. That's a real that's the real deal, right? Because they can sing, you know without having to worry about anything else kind of creating sounds around their voice. Right. Um, I think it always makes me laugh like when I hear I think, isn't it Seth Meyers? Seth Meyers the one that does the voices for a family guy is that

Nick VinZant  34:09

Seth McFarland?

Isabel Leonard  34:12

You know, I have been screwing up people's last names left and right over the last two days. I am ashamed.Seth McFarland

Nick VinZant  34:22

I know what you're talking about. He can really sing

Isabel Leonard  34:27

Yeah, so that's it. Like he can totally say, like, I would do a duet with him in a heartbeat or anything. I don't care what it is. I will sing with him. You know, I'll say with Ariana. I would say with JLo i like i like JLo. You know, come on Jenny from the block. We're from New York. You know? I mean, Bronx, Bronx, Manhattan, whatever. You know, um, I would I've always been a big fan of Madonna. And I haven't heard her sing recently. But I just think she's kind of incredible by how, how much she's evolved over the decades. Um,

Nick VinZant  34:58

is there anyone you think that could just jump right into Opera. They've got the voice to it.

Isabel Leonard  35:06

Ah, good question. I'm not sure. I have to give it some thought. I have to give it some thought

Nick VinZant  35:19

from any musical genre than anybody that you could think of.

Isabel Leonard  35:24

I mean, I guess like, I don't know, I have not listened to Tony Bennett in a long time. So I don't know what he sounds like, right now. Maybe like a young I mean, I would have said, like Frank Sinatra in the beginning, but he was also trained at some point in his career by an opera singer. He took lessons like he took lessons from an opera singer to learn good technique.

Nick VinZant  35:44

How can opera be more relatable? Do you think it needs to be more relatable?

Isabel Leonard  35:50

Yeah, I think I do. I think it does. I think I think the audience needs to know that they are welcome and they, they can come and they can get into the stories. Even if it's in a different language like, like not to let that bother you or or, or, you know, deter you from coming in, but that the stories are awesome and they're so touching and they're so deep and like, it's like watching one of those just like watching like great films, and some of them are 30s. And I'm we're, you know, tragically sad. And to be totally honest, anybody that's like, oh, opera is too long. If you've all watched Lord of the Rings, movies, opera is not too long. Those movies are frickin long, they're like three and a half hours. And that's pretty much as long as you would need for an opera and at least you get to get up in the middle of an opera and go get a glass of wine, which, granted, obviously, you could do that if you're watching those movies at home, but you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, you can get up and you know, a glass of wine and make kind of an evening of it and get dressed if you want or not, you know, I mean, please wear the clothes. Like I mean, get dressed up, get dressed up nicely, versus like, just be cash. I do think it needs to be relatable. I think that it needs to be promoted, more like sports. Players are promoted. I think that individual singers need to be promoted more to the audience so that the audience can really start to, like, get to know the people, the people behind those characters and the, you know, the actors. It's like we know, you know, actors, actors that we love. And we know everybody thinks they know who they are, right? Well, we owe so um, so Oh, he's a method actor. I know so much about so and so. Right. And it's the same kind of thing. I think if we got to know singers a little bit more on that level, people would feel more kind of confident perhaps about coming into the houses and theaters coming to see these people live. You know, also, I gotta say it's, it's, it's such a rare thing. The live art form is still unique. It is still magical. And like you said, that listening to a human voice right can bring you to tears, and it could be a happy song and it could still bring you to tears. And there's something so magical about being whether it's feet away or a couple hundred feet away from listening To a live singer with an orchestra. And it's just it's like nothing else.

Nick VinZant  38:04

That's pretty much all I got what's coming up next for you What's kind of on the horizon?

Isabel Leonard  38:10

Technically, I will be going to Houston in September October to do my very first Carmen down in Houston, Grand Opera. So it'll be my role debut down there as well as my debut at the Opera House. And then I have a, I have a tour coming up after that, and I should be back and Sam, back in LA in January for a concert. And then in a little bit after that, I go back to the Met to do a new production of Giovanni, I've done Giovanni. And so that should be fun. And yeah, so I think everybody should get on to like the met on demand. And check out the live streams that are happening right now because Peter is streaming live one opera every every day or every other day for 24 hours so people can kind of see To watch these things and get to know them and feel like they're getting to know it without feeling like they have to do any sort of financial commitment yet. And then later, you know to do I think it's like $15 a month or something to have them that on demand on all times. And then you can put it up like on your big screen at home, you can turn up the volume and listen to these people. And you can see their faces up close, right, which is also pretty rare, especially for a place like that, because normally you're, you know, sitting way far away, and it's hard to see. And it's like it's really like nothing else is it's very cool. It's very, very cool.

Nick VinZant  39:34

I want to thank Isabelle so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. Were profoundly pointless on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included her information on the RSS feed that's on her podcast. She's got she's got these really cool a series of Instagram chats that she's been putting up on her social media. If you want to hear more More of her singing. She has a YouTube channel. It's really cool to check out. I'm, like I mentioned, I'm not a huge music person, but just to hear somebody who can really see. To me that's just, it's such a amazing experience.  

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Yoga and Meditation Expert Karla Tafra

Take a breath. Relax. Clear your mind and focus on the moment. Renowned Yoga Teacher Karla Tafra is here to help rejuvenate your mind and body. We talk yoga techniques, the secret to proper breathing and the best way to listen to your body. Then, John Shull strings together an impressive array of coherent thoughts. And we countdown the Top 5 Things Worth Waiting in Line For.

Pandemic Historian Dr. Graham Mooney

From the Black Death and Cholera, to Influenza and the Coronavirus, throughout history pandemics have killed millions. Pandemic Historian Dr. Graham Mooney joins us to explain what happened, why it happened and what we can learn. Then, John Shull learns a difficult lesson about the human body. And we unveil a new Top 5.

Adventure Travel Expert Justin Walter

From diving with Great White Sharks in Africa, to crawling through the canyons of Zion National Park, we're exploring the world in this episode of Profoundly Pointless. Adventure Travel Expert Justin Walter joins us. We talk the travel destinations you have to see, popular places you should skip and finding the courage to take that first step out the door. Then, John Shull takes on the Coronavirus. And we countdown the Top 5 Things to do if you're Quarantined. Please leave a review if you like the show.