College Football is back. But it will never be the same. NIL (Name, Image and Likeness) Researcher Dr. Thio Kunkel reveals how a massive influx of new money is changing college sports. We talk why the rich are getting richer, the disappearance of smaller schools and the powerhouses of NIL.
Interview with NIL Researcher Dr. Thilo Kunkel
Nick VinZant 0:00
Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode the money behind college sports and car brands with the worst drivers, we
Thilo Kunkel 0:24
see some newer universities emerging that are just basically throwing money around to get and buy their way to the top women's lacrosse or a men's rowing team, those expenses may need to get cut in order to pay your new quarterback. I think if we want to stay in Texas, I think the University of Texas, like you, look at the parking lot for the football practice and it has a Lamborghini Park to Lamborghini next to Lamborghini.
Nick VinZant 0:55
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. It's good to be back. I want to just take a quick second to thank everyone for all of the kind words that were said over the last couple of months. I'll talk more about the circumstances later, but for now, let's just get right to our first guest. This is n i l researcher, Dr Philo Kunkel, so I know that nil is name, image and likeness, but what does this kind of mean? Really like, what does this all entail?
Thilo Kunkel 1:33
We're really looking at nil with a focus on college athletes, but it's much broader as an actors can monetize their name, image and likeness. Professional athletes are monetizing their name, image, likeness.
Nick VinZant 1:46
How do you think it has already started to change college sports.
Thilo Kunkel 1:51
It's completely changed how athletes engage with colleges. We've seen a big change of these athletes being empowered. They want to learn. They want to build their personal brand. They're making money on the side. It's also completely changed the way that colleges are able to recruit these student athletes. Now we've seen some some colleges that have deeper pockets than others, or better TV rights than others, and they've been going after the top stars. We see some newer universities emerging that are just basically throwing money around to get and buy their way to the top. And that has a big impact on those traditional power five power these power schools in the in the biggest conferences, but it also has an impact on those smaller or mid tier schools that basically having their team picked apart every every season where you got a few players that have a really good season, they're going to move because not only have we seen A change in nil and these students athletes being allowed to monetize. We've also had a change in the transfer portal that before, when a student athlete wanted to transfer from one university to the other, they had to sit out for a year so they couldn't play, whereas now we have that change that they don't have to wait another year, and they can transfer right away, and they can play right away. So it's it's basically changed. The combination of n, i, L and the transfer portal combined has made a massive impact on the way that these universities now recruit student athletes, and for the student athletes, it's created really a free movement of labor, which is great.
Nick VinZant 3:42
It sounds really good for
Unknown Speaker 3:45
the players. It's fantastic for the players.
Nick VinZant 3:47
Has it helped the colleges? Or do the colleges kind of look at this as like, this isn't good for us?
Thilo Kunkel 3:54
I want to separate the answer into the last four years and the next five years. So the last four years, we've seen money that would have gone from donors to the athletic programs. They that money has now somewhat shifted to the athlete directly through collectives where a bunch of rich donors getting together and say, Hey, we want to recruit this superstar to our university, and we find them an nil deal. So these donors have then donated to a collective which has pooled the money and gone out and helped the university recruit which sounds good because someone else is paying for your new superstar quarterback. The problem with that is that those donors would have donated to the athletic program in the past, at least some of them, so some of that money has now been split and is going to the athletes directly. And all of that together has impacted the donations and revenue generation. In at the athletic department. So that's the last four years. The next years, we will see even more of that change coming, because this year, we saw a new change in legislation that allows these schools to use up to certain percentage of the athletic program revenue to go directly to the athletes, so now that the athletic program can actually pay their star athletes some nil money directly. However, that money, again, needs to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is within the university. Now, so because the money comes from the athletic program and we within the university, I mean that it's likely coming from graduate externships that have been working in the athletic program, those who have been working on whether it's content generation, social media marketing, or potential scholarships for non revenue generating sports, think Olympic sports or less popular ones, say, for example, women's lacrosse or a men's rowing team, those expenses may need to get cut in order to pay your new quarterback. So we will see more of that negative impact coming in the next few years. How
Nick VinZant 6:25
big of a negative impact do you think that is going to be like to put you on the spot? Are colleges gonna lose 25% of the sports that they were doing, 50% of the sports that they were doing?
Thilo Kunkel 6:40
I give you the lawyer answer, and that it means it depends, it depends on the college strategy, on the University Australia. So some universities may say, we are not engaging in this. We're not paying our athletes directly. We want to be there for all athletes, and we're not paying them anything and others, and therefore it will not have any impact, and others will go all out and recruit top stars, and particularly the schools that have been traditional power five or traditional football schools, traditional basketball schools, they're probably going all out and saying, Look, you know what? We cut 20% we'd cut four or five of our non revenue generating teams, and we are going all in on basketball, we going all in on football, we going all in on whatever the sport it is. If I was a university, if I was an athletic program, I would go all in in some of these lesser known or more niche sports that still have a potential to drive generation, that still have a potential drive income, sponsorship and particular marketing objectives, such as media generations. So Women's Gymnastics is a great example. We see women's volleyball. We see some of those sports that are more emerging, that are still relatively cheap, so to speak, to get top star athletes. Has
Nick VinZant 8:11
college sports kind of lost anything because of it? Like, even though, to me, at least, the idea that these were amateurs and they weren't getting paid was a little bit of like, yeah, okay, but there was things going on. Oh yeah. Has n i l taken any of that away, even if it was just a facade,
Thilo Kunkel 8:31
I think it's pulled back the curtain as of what was going on behind the scenes. And it's now much more. It's not legal to pay these athletes, but they were getting paid before, but I don't think it's changed much on the experience for others. Or I haven't come across someone saying, Oh, I don't watch March Madness anymore, because now they're getting paid. How much money are we talking about? It ranges from your last name and your number of social media followers all the way to your performance. The ideal scenario is you are an arch Manning, have 500,000 followers on Instagram and are quarterback at the University of Texas. You are looking at several million dollars a year. And for the the ones that are much more regular cases, we for starting running backs, quarterbacks, top star basketball is we're certainly looking at six figures. And even the ones that are getting poached from the mid majors to transition to like a power five conference, or an SEC or a big 10, we're looking at 50 $200,000 in sponsorship to motivate them to switch universities. So we're looking at real money. But again, for most deals. Adults that are not in the top star level. It's, it's less than five figures, where we're talking about a few $1,000 here and there. So nothing that really should worry us too much, that these student athletes now are not connected to the real world anymore,
Nick VinZant 10:19
or like, do they have to do stuff for this. Or they kind of just like, Here's the money.
Thilo Kunkel 10:25
In an ideal world, they're supposed to do something for this money, as in, it's endorse our money and and the real nil deals, the ones that most student has, most students athlete, athletes have, are they are doing some promotions for that. The pay to play deals that I call most collectives, as in, I mentioned these, these rich groups of people getting together these donors and say, Hey, here's an nil deal, $500,000 come to play at our university. They're supposed to again be at their fair market value, and meaning that they need to be doing something. What we see happening is that a lot of these deals are getting disguised in some sort of charity work, as in rather than promoting a specific product or service. Now you your nil. Deal is you go to this high school and deliver an inspiring speech, because placing the value on some inspired students is priceless. It's really difficult to put that into perspective, whereas I can say, Look, if you want to reach 1000 people with your advertisement, this is how much I would have to pay on Instagram, on Google ads, etc. So that's much more quantifiable, inspiring people changing their lives. That's priceless, isn't it?
Nick VinZant 11:54
They're getting around it like that.
Thilo Kunkel 11:56
Now, what we've also seen, I think one element you ask here, what are some boundaries? You are not allowed to say this nio money you're only getting if you play and commit to our university. So you may end up giving an athlete a few million dollars, and they said you want thank you very much. Next year I'm out of here. I'm playing somewhere else, and some collectives have been burned with that, where an athlete took the money and said, Thank you, see you later. I You can't make me come and play for university. And these collectives are getting smarter with this, where they now require these, the athletes, to do some specific local, locally based activities. So it's not just social media posts that can be done from anywhere, but it's really hard to attend high school in Texas every two weeks to do a speech when you just transferred to a university on the East Coast,
Nick VinZant 13:03
is the system working like is this? Are things kind of when this was legalized, I think you said in the early, you know, four years ago, is it turning out the way that people thought that it was going to turn out
Thilo Kunkel 13:17
in the way that student athletes are not just getting exploited by the universities, by the athletic programs and like those on the field are actually making some money. So in that sense, it's absolutely working. It's also working in the sense that the rich are getting richer, and it's coming at the expense of other student athletes at universities that are not generating revenue in particular, that are playing sports that are not on national media. So the rich are getting richer in that sense, and those who are not contributing to this increase in revenue are getting left behind. So if we are going fully American on the system, then it's very much working if you want, if you are having a more romanticized perspective of sport, more of a sport for social sport for all, or more of a potentially European based system where you want to take some of the revenue that the rich generate and distribute it amongst everyone, then it's absolutely not working. So it really depends on which mindset you are approaching this question from,
Nick VinZant 14:31
yeah, I guess this is more a philosophical question with maybe not a right answer or an answer, but like, how should I feel about that? Should I feel bad that the star quarterback who brings in all the money is getting all the money, and that the guy who does kayaking is out. Should I feel a certain way about that, or should, like, tough like, I don't know exactly how I feel,
Thilo Kunkel 14:56
and that's I think, what many people. Some responses to this. I was like, Well, I want those who bring in the money to earn the money. And I think we see something very similar with the WNBA players, that they are recent. Also, again, they are like, look, pay us what we what we're worth. Like, yes, you are the top stars. You should get paid. But if we pay you, we can't pay these guys.
Nick VinZant 15:24
Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions. Sure. If you were to pick one school that benefits the most from this, what school would that be?
Thilo Kunkel 15:38
TCU, Texas Christian University. There's a lot of oil money in Texas and a lot of rich donors that say, let's go. We're going to go all in on sport. And they have not traditionally been the top university in terms of sports, but they're really using their resources very strategically, and been extremely successful in raising a lot of money and using that money to recruit Top stars and top athletes. So they're doing really well in leveraging the resources
Nick VinZant 16:25
that they have. I knew for some reason I was like, I bet he's going to say a school in Texas, but I thought you were going to say Texas. TCU is surprising to me. Are there other schools out there that really kind of catch your attention? Is like, Oh, they're really making a big move under this.
Thilo Kunkel 16:40
I think if we want to stay in Texas, I think the University of Texas, like you look at the parking lot for the football practice, and it has a Lamborghini Park to Lamborghini next to Lamborghini. LSU is a great example of how they've been leveraging not just football, not just basketball, they've been leveraging women's basketball. They've been really strong on women's gymnastics. So Livy Dunn went to LSU, and she's one of the highest earning, now former college athletes, but she's been the face of nil for the last few years and so LSU is not only thrown around money, they've also created what they call a creators lab, as in giving creating a space for their athletes to become creators. So video, video editing, podcast rooms at Temple University, we have every student athlete that joins us is taking an N i l course that I've created. And now, whenever they join us now, they learn about, okay, what's it like? How can I go after a potential sponsor? Do I look for just the money or strategic fit in the future? And what does that mean on the legal side? How do I protect myself? And well, now I got some money. What about the taxes? So I think more and more schools are using nil as an educational piece as well that we we teach his student athletes on what to do with that new found opportunity. And I think that's where a lot of schools still have a lot of potential. And some schools are moving faster than others.
Nick VinZant 18:29
We talked about kind of the winners. Are there schools that you would look at and be like, That's not this isn't good for them. I
Thilo Kunkel 18:37
think without naming individual schools, I think the ones that have that had a massive advantage are the ones that were in conferences with a strong TV dollar. So immediately, now it becomes more and more difficult to change conferences, to align and get into a conference with a top TV dollar, and that means getting left behind more and more. Now, if you're a mid major program, so not an SEC, not a big 10, you don't have the TV dollar to afford nil deals. You don't have the sponsors to for the nil leads or the donors, and you are just really good at recruiting top level athletes that other people overlook one season, one good season with you, and those athletes are out because they're getting poached by bigger schools. So it's almost like it's becoming harder and harder to break out of this. So the schools that have moved very early on nil and that have invested in this really quickly are the ones that are benefiting, and schools that have been strong and have taken more of a traditional, conservative approach to this are. Slowly left behind Highest Paid player right now, that would be arch Manning. How much did you know? How much he's getting, if you look at on three which values, the N i L value of student athletes, his n i L value is at $6.8 million at the moment.
Nick VinZant 20:22
God, could you imagine being 19 years old, making $6 million I'd like to Is there somebody though that in the past that you would look at and be like, if this had existed when they were around, they would have just crushed.
Thilo Kunkel 20:41
I Yeah, depends on how far you want to go back. I think Reggie Bush is a great example for, like, the early 2000s and who's been in L in the LA market had a right Heisman trophy. So like, right there, multi million dollar NFL star, right there. More recently, I think Johnny Manziel, or Johnny Football, is a great example of someone who really had college as the highest P It's the peak of his career. He tried Pro. It didn't work out for him. He could have, and should have, made a lot of money in football, he would have been an absolute multi million dollar star back then, and that would have been the height of his career. Zion Williamson, great example. That was some of the One and done basketballers that that we've seen, that that have really had a lot of potential. What's the
Nick VinZant 21:42
next shoe to drop? Like, do you think this continues? Or is like, Oh no, there's something else that's coming because of this.
Thilo Kunkel 21:48
I think the next one is, as I mentioned earlier, is the universities being allowed to use a portion of the athletic department revenue to pay these athletes and I own money directly. So that's right now. That's the most immediate shoe to drop.
Nick VinZant 22:10
Do you see anything brewing that could just put the genie back in the bottle that would say, Okay, this was a mistake. We got to go back to the way it was.
Thilo Kunkel 22:25
You're challenging labor laws, which is really difficult. I think you would have to go with probably legal system or legal decision makers who don't care too much.
Nick VinZant 22:43
Has it changed professional sports in any way? Do you see any impact for professional sports being different because of it?
Thilo Kunkel 22:50
It changed, as in those who come into the pro teams now, they have an established personal brand. They know how to deal with sponsorships. They know how to serve the industry, so they are a lot more prepared for the business side of the professional sport level than they were previously. So I think that is beneficial, and that's that's helped a lot with the pro side. It also impacts, as I said earlier, it's maybe been more beneficial to be to stay in college for another year than to be a seventh round pick. So some who were on the verge of, do I go pro or not, they're staying in college. So that means maybe next year they are more ready, or they just stay in college longer they are not going pro at at that point, and some of the minor league teams are getting less, less talent now than they were getting before. Because, again, it's beneficial to stay in college, because the NFL deals in college are better than some of the lower paid minor
Nick VinZant 23:58
leagues. Yeah. Why would I go pro? I have to take a pay cut. Absolutely.
Thilo Kunkel 24:02
If you're making $2 million nil money to play for the University of Texas, do you really want to play for some sort of development team, or you want to be in the G League? No, $425,000 in G league for them like, No, you're going to play another year in college. It's not rocket science.
Nick VinZant 24:24
I want to thank Dr Kunkel so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Twitter, no tick tock. Forgot this part on tick tock, YouTube and Instagram, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of the show. What percentage of your life would you say you know what you're doing?
John Shull 24:57
25% maybe. Me, Oh, you went
Nick VinZant 25:01
a little lower than I thought you would go. I could go as high as 50% because I feel like I generally kind of know what I'm doing. I just have no idea how it's going to play out.
John Shull 25:15
I mean, every time I feel that I'm doing something correct or the right way, it ends up just going to crap. So I'm actually learning that the less you actually know about anything, the better.
Nick VinZant 25:31
Oh, the answer to essentially everything in life is it depends. It's kind
John Shull 25:36
of like when your children come and ask you a question, maybe,
Nick VinZant 25:40
I don't know. Maybe the more you know, the less you realize you
John Shull 25:45
know. All right, should we take just five seconds to say, welcome back to the podcast.
Nick VinZant 25:51
I thought about that, right? Like, I thought about the idea of like, Should I say something so basically, for anybody who maybe is interested or wonders what happened my son, Riley, who's six, had to get a liver transplant. That's incredible. That is an incredible thing, like the fact that we can do that is like you're going to do what you're going to take somebody's liver out of one person and put it into somebody else's body. And the amazing thing about it was, Thursday morning, he's essentially dying. Like, oh, he's dying. Friday, he's fine. I mean, he's not fine. He's had a major surgery, but he's fine. So I just wanted to take a second thank everybody for the support. Thanks John for checking in every day,
John Shull 26:36
every day. I was annoying. I was like, every single day. I was like the wife you never wanted, but somehow are stuck with.
Nick VinZant 26:43
You know what? The whole like? I'm not an overly emotional person necessarily, but it is amazing when you go through something. And I think that you can say having your son get a liver transplant at six years old is going through something, how much you really aren't alone in the world. Like you know that you've kind of lived a decent life and been a decent person. When something like that happens, and you have a number of people that you can count on, and people who would just immediately like, jump in to help, it's it's amazing. I remember asking somebody, it's like, Hey, thanks for coming. And they got pissed off about it. And they were like, Why the fuck wouldn't I be here? Like, why would why would you even say that?
John Shull 27:26
That is, that is one amazing thing. Also, as you get older, you realize you're usually not alone. It's a good feeling, especially for somebody like you and I, and by the way, I do feel like I need to throw a little bit of shade at you, because you are legitimately one of the worst texting communicators I've ever dealt with. You are just absolutely abhorrent. How? So hey, Nick, how's it going? I know your your boy just had a liver transplant yesterday. You don't have to respond back to me, but how are things going? A typical Nick response. I'm sorry I
Nick VinZant 28:01
didn't take time out of my day after my son had a liver transplant to respond to you with the appropriate numbers of characters.
John Shull 28:07
That's nothing. But here's the, here's the typical Nick. Who's going to short from him, he's he's doing okay, no big deal.
Nick VinZant 28:15
What do you like? That's also the truth. Like, you can get down to it. Like, how's he doing? He's doing all right. He's doing bad. He's doing good. Like, there's only really three options when you get right down to it, bad, good. What's the other one? Great,
John Shull 28:29
maybe doing all right? I was just, you know, listen, it's yes. Did you want that?
Nick VinZant 28:35
Did you want me to give you his Billy Rubin levels? Did you want me to tell you what his magnesium was? Like? His magnesium is a little high, right now.
John Shull 28:42
I mean, my wife is a laboratory scientist. Of course, I wanted all
Nick VinZant 28:46
of that, well, then you should have pressed for details.
John Shull 28:49
No, because I am not gonna you know, right,
Nick VinZant 28:53
John, you're right. I should apologize to you that during my son, as he, I he, as he lay dying, I should have been more, more descriptive. Yeah, my text message is back to you. I can only see, hold on, hold on, son. I know that you're in agony, but John really needs a longer response on this text message.
John Shull 29:16
Gotta tell you, I'm so happy, so happy I'm back on this thing.
Nick VinZant 29:23
Like, I feel like, yeah, I still have. I was wondering if I was going to lose some of the ability to annoy you. I was worried about that, glad that that's still right there.
John Shull 29:33
Oh, it's yeah. Actually, the entire day today, I was like, All right, stay calm. Stay calm. Nick's had three months of just pent up aggression that he's just gonna beat out of you tonight. So
Nick VinZant 29:47
I'm a completely I'm a changed man. I'm peaceful. I'm a piece of the world. Sure
John Shull 29:53
you are. You're clearly showing it, because you've changed a lot. It seems
Nick VinZant 29:57
you know what the weird thing to me is, is that at the end of it. You just kind of get through it, like, you just have to keep moving in life. Like, and what's the point of thinking about what could have been? It's over. The future is the only thing that matters now. Like, oh man, the past you can wonder about what hap what caused it, what you could have done differently, like, all those opportunities that maybe you missed, but it's in the past. Like, what's the point? You just gotta move forward.
John Shull 30:24
I think reflection is important, but everyone reflects at a different time. How long they reflect different like, I'm a reflector. I will spend evenings and nights thinking about things as we're clearly you. You have never been much of a reflector.
Nick VinZant 30:40
I reflect on things. I think about them and try to analyze them. I just think that the end of it, like it goes back to the question that we started with, how much do you really know what you were doing? And you generally make the best decision you can at the time, the best decision for you. You really just have no idea how it's going to go over. You really don't.
John Shull 31:03
Well, I think I join all of us and say, I'm glad you're on the other end, happy for your boy, happy for your family, but you can go yourself.
Nick VinZant 31:15
Well, that's not very nice. So all because I didn't respond to you at nothing takes
John Shull 31:20
message. I'm pretty No, I'm pretty sure I started off by saying I didn't want you to respond, but then
Nick VinZant 31:27
what you can wait. You didn't want me to respond, but you're complaining about the response.
John Shull 31:31
I mean, if you're gonna respond, respond not you know, no, you know, he had like, nine surgeries yesterday, but no, it could be worse. No, it couldn't. You're going through something that very few people are going through.
Nick VinZant 31:46
Well, it could be worse. He could be dead, sure,
John Shull 31:49
right, right. It could be absolutely that much worse. But you just downplay it, you're a down player. That's no I
Nick VinZant 31:55
think that perspective is a very powerful thing. I think that perspective is a very powerful thing. And they thing that I learned through this whole experience, you never realize how lucky you can be, even in your unluckiness. So this is something that happens to like, they do 35 pediatric liver transplants a year, right? Like, that's not a big amount. I don't know what the number is out of millions, or whatever it is, but you think that you're so unlucky. And then you realize, like, oh, I happen to live in Seattle, which is right next to one of the best pediatric liver transplant places in the entire world. So you're pretty lucky there. It's his liver. It's not something else, like a heart transplant. For pediatric heart transplant, like those kids are in there for two years waiting for a heart so I think this perspective is an amazing thing about even when you feel unlucky, you don't realize how lucky you are. Like, oh man, it can be a lot worse.
Unknown Speaker 32:48
Absolutely could
Nick VinZant 32:50
be. Can you sit here? Could be married to you?
John Shull 32:55
That would be a I will. Have you ever thought
Nick VinZant 32:57
about if we is there any hair gel left in Detroit? Oh, my God.
John Shull 33:01
It's, can you believe this has only been a month? I got my hair cut a month ago tomorrow,
Nick VinZant 33:08
because I used to have to get my hair cut like every three weeks, maybe every month, and it's now going on like three months, and I'm starting to I'm starting to slow down, and I know it's only a matter of time before it starts to go away.
John Shull 33:20
I mean, I'm not complaining, because you're right. I could be the other way. I know plenty of people our age, in my age, that are, I mean, they don't got much up there, but God dang, you're right. Looks like I'm gonna poke you like through the screen. I'm
Nick VinZant 33:36
actually worried about getting injured. I think that people are watching this are probably a little bit concerned, if you lean forward that they're going to draw, you're going to draw you're going to draw
John Shull 33:45
blood. I do, you know, here's something else you missed in the last three months. Well, I guess everyone else missed. I came across somebody that knows nature pretty well. You could say, you could say that they
Nick VinZant 33:57
have a degree, a degree,
John Shull 34:01
they said there is no way in hell that I could outrun a bison. I'm glad
Nick VinZant 34:07
that you finally came to the conclusion that everybody else came to three seconds after you said it,
John Shull 34:13
but, but here's the thing, he's wrong.
Nick VinZant 34:20
Good, whenever, whenever you are confronted with insurmountable evidence, the best thing to do is not to learn your lesson, not to use it as a growing moment, but to double down in your obstinance and continue to be stubborn about it and not learn anything. It's important. Yeah, never admit wrong. Yeah, just double down
John Shull 34:35
nothing. I mean, I haven't. We haven't changed where you think I was gonna submit submit
Nick VinZant 34:41
wrongdoing and learn, commit and grow as a person. No, I didn't. No, never,
John Shull 34:47
alright. Is it time?
Nick VinZant 34:49
I know we've been I don't even remember how to do this that much. I actually wrote down a little
John Shull 34:53
like show, like I listened to the last show that was published, other than the one you published in in May. So. Have a little bit of an idea, but yeah, I didn't even remember the freaking link to the to get on
Nick VinZant 35:05
this thing. So, oh, I didn't even know he had to have one. I go, Yeah, I had to go buy
John Shull 35:10
a new mic from Costco, for God's sakes. Oh, how much to pay for it? I'm kidding. I didn't, didn't go to Costco, though. I will say, I have, I have gotten into the habit now of once a week having a Costco lunch. So,
Nick VinZant 35:25
oh, I would go to Costco in a heartbeat. It takes nothing to convince me to go to Costco. Like, if somebody just has to start, Hey, you want to go to and then as soon as they say the C I'm like, yes, do you want to go to Costco? Yeah, I don't even, I would go to Costco to buy one thing. I don't care what it
John Shull 35:46
is, just one thing, just, I don't
Nick VinZant 35:48
one thing. Oh, I see what you're saying. You thought I was gonna say like one thing, but no, like one thing,
John Shull 35:53
like a like, I don't need a rear excuse at all. 64 gallon bottle of whiskey.
Nick VinZant 35:59
I do have good prices. All right, is ridiculous. But
John Shull 36:03
anyway, here's some shout outs for our return. Oh, that's what we do. Okay, shout out oats. All right, so let's see. We'll start off with Eric N dia Fatima, Charles Beatrice, and by
Nick VinZant 36:18
the way, all one word Eric and diaphytema. Is that all one person, or is that Eric and Eric? N, that's one name. It's just Eric and you're not giving the last name, okay?
John Shull 36:32
Well, there is no it's just Eric N on social media, but
Nick VinZant 36:36
n probably stands for his last name, I'm assuming Correct. Yeah. Eric. N, okay.
John Shull 36:42
Eric Nelson, there. Dia Fatima, Charles Beatrice,
Nick VinZant 36:50
that's not a real person. There's no way named Charles Beatrice that's sorry. Wait for this one,
John Shull 36:56
beautiful babe. Beautiful babe, double, oh, seven.
Nick VinZant 37:02
Oh, okay, that's probably not their real name. I would believe that's a social media handle. I have a feeling I
John Shull 37:07
definitely pulled a couple of funny ones just to make people and you laugh. JD, Vance, poop emoji. Sure that's his official account. Ally, Marquez, Gabrielle, bortoletta.
Nick VinZant 37:25
I got how you struggle to pronounce basic words,
John Shull 37:28
Jack, Hanna, Jack. Hanna is ghost.
Nick VinZant 37:32
Is Jack? Hannah, dead? I don't know.
John Shull 37:35
Is he dead? I'm not really sure if he is or isn't. I apologize. And then we'll end here on Jack. Han
Nick VinZant 37:42
is alive. He's only 78
John Shull 37:46
Yeah, that's a young pup.
Nick VinZant 37:49
I mean, like it is. Now,
John Shull 37:53
let's see here. Fitzy Fitz, that's not a real name. And Michael Moroney,
Nick VinZant 38:01
at what age are you surprised somebody's dead? Like, oh, they died at that age.
John Shull 38:07
You know, I actually had this debate, because Hulk Hogan died a couple of weeks ago, as we all are aware. And it just made me think, the older I get, the more that I'm just like, I'm now, I'm to the point of my life where I'm surprised to hear somebody was still alive,
Nick VinZant 38:22
oh, yeah, I would say that I start to get surprised if somebody's in their 60s, like, well over 65
Unknown Speaker 38:35
Yeah. I mean, start like, oh, he was 65
Nick VinZant 38:39
even in their 70s. I'm a little even young 70s, I'm like, Oh, they've kind of like they had some time left.
John Shull 38:45
I mean, I mean, really it's, I mean, the early 70s, they say are like the new late 50s. Don't know if that's true, but
Nick VinZant 38:54
I love those things comparing to like, what people look like now versus what they look like later. And you find these things that, like the people who are in cheers were the same age as you are, and they look like they're damn near 60, like, I don't know what happened, but we are aging a lot better, except for, I'm sorry, younger people, younger people are not aging very well. I don't know if life is just real. I think they do have a more stressful younger life than we did. I think the younger generation has this more stressful younger life than we did at that age, only
John Shull 39:25
because I was literally having this conversation eight hours ago when I found out this morning that Woody Harrelson is only 64 I was like, how the hell is he only 64 and still alive?
Nick VinZant 39:39
Oh, I would have, I mean, he looks good for 64
John Shull 39:43
I mean, sure he does.
Nick VinZant 39:44
Do you think younger people? Do you think the younger generation has a more stressful life than Do you think that the younger generation had a more stressful life growing up than we did?
John Shull 40:00
Yes, no, but I but I do think it's all relative. So I say that it's my personal opinion. I don't think the younger generation has a harder life than we do or upbringing. I do feel that the world that they're in is tougher, but I feel like the circumstances are not if that makes sense,
Nick VinZant 40:23
I feel like the circumstances are probably easier. Like, you can kind of get the basic necessities of life easier, but I think it's harder, because just as we get more people, it becomes harder for you to find out where you really fit. Where do I fit in? Life becomes much more difficult when there's just, now you've gotta, like, find your own niche. And that becomes more difficult. Like, you can't just be, to put it in animal terms, like you can't just be an animal that eats meat. You've gotta now, like, find a unique niche, living off of some rare leaf. Like you've gotta, you have to. It's much it becomes, I think it becomes harder to find a place where you fit in,
John Shull 41:05
though I do think, you know, anytime you have, like, a, you know, a pandemic or something like that, I mean, that should probably automatically put that generation into the, you know, tougher than us category, because I literally took away a year and a half of anyone's life. And could you imagine being a college freshman having to do everything remote because your campus isn't open?
Nick VinZant 41:30
I mean, like, I think you just adjust to that stuff. I think it's the pressure of just not knowing what you're going to do and how the world is going to be. Like, there's too much turmoil we face big changes anyway,
John Shull 41:42
man, I feel like that's feel like that's any generation. I'm
Nick VinZant 41:46
getting hydrated as right now. Hell
John Shull 41:49
yeah, and your pastel cup. How's your basement doing?
Nick VinZant 41:54
I don't know. Good into basement like I
John Shull 41:57
don't my basements, great. I
Nick VinZant 42:00
mean, it looks the same.
John Shull 42:03
I added tons more records.
Nick VinZant 42:05
Oh, good, good, good. Now you can pose and be pretend like you're a music aficionado. Do you ever get tired of being a poser?
John Shull 42:12
No, you know. But you know what I've started to do, and people love me for it is I am so hip that I know there is a digital jukebox app where I can plug in to, I can be at home in, tap into, like, bar jukeboxes and play songs and they have no idea that I'm playing them. That's fantastic.
Nick VinZant 42:32
Wait, you can play them at, like I can beat that you're not at
John Shull 42:38
Sure. Like the other night, a buddy of mine owns a bar in Detroit, and I played at like, 1am Backstreet Boys, and he sent me a text, and I just did it, just because I was up, wanted to mess with him, and he sent me a text and said that, you know, I know it was you, you expletive. Word I can't say, word I can't say. I hate boy bands.
Nick VinZant 43:01
I mean, this seems like a significant loophole that should be closed so you could just, like, go on to any bar that has a jukebox hooked up and play whatever song you want, like, if I wanted to play a bar a song at Pete's bar in Sarasota, Florida, right now, I can do it,
John Shull 43:21
yeah. I mean, you can't see this, but probably, but like, you get this list right there, yeah, and if they have one that's hooked up to the internet, you can tap into it and play songs.
Nick VinZant 43:37
This seems like a problem. This seems like a bad idea. Like, this is a loophole that's going to have to be closed really quickly, because you could just take over the jukebox at somebody's song place, right? Like, let's say it was a biker bar and all you did was play Mariah Carey Christmas carols all night. This seems like something with unlimited, unlimited capacity for problems.
John Shull 44:01
Well, I enjoy it, and I take over the jukebox every time I go out, which is infrequent, but enough. All right, are we, you asked? And I have delivered, my friend, you
Nick VinZant 44:17
literally just did shout outs and did nothing else.
John Shull 44:20
No, you asked me to deliver a CEO
Nick VinZant 44:24
not till later. Don't you have anything else I want to get in this in, you're phoning this in. I
John Shull 44:31
don't know if I'm excited. I am bringing the intensity. The people want this. They need this. We're going to have to get it sponsored again, if it was ever sponsored, Long John Silver's call us back.
Nick VinZant 44:46
Alright, it's time. He's been waiting for three months, patiently, consuming how many candles in the last three months?
John Shull 44:56
So it slowed a little bit, but we'll say. Probably 10 a month. So about 30,
Nick VinZant 45:07
God, like, how do people not smell your house from the next door neighbors? I just don't understand that. Like you're going through 10 candles a month. It's a fucking fire hazard. Your whole house is a fire hazard. I
John Shull 45:22
mean, I've started to, well, what? Well, I don't want to say I've started, but I primarily burn them like I start late at night, and then I just look good morning. Good, good. My wife. My wife doesn't like it, but, yeah, candles, sets my house on fire. Then so be it. It's meant to be
Nick VinZant 45:40
okay. That's Famous last words on that one. All right, so it's time. That's a decent horse. That's good the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again. You don't
John Shull 45:57
need, we need a little of those audio boards where it could just be like, kind of love the month.
Nick VinZant 46:02
Why would we do that when I could just do it myself. I just I, that's my only what what kind of voice Do you want me to impersonate when I introduce scandal of the month? I can do anything.
John Shull 46:13
Can you give me like a good Indiana accent
Nick VinZant 46:18
handle of the month? I have no idea what people don't see it. I can't the only states that I could possibly tell if somebody was from would be like Louisiana, Massachusetts. I couldn't differentiate like Alabama from Mississippi. Actually, maybe Alabama does sound a little bit different from Mississippi. Minnesota, Minnesota dude, that if it wasn't a strong regal I could never be like, You're from Colorado, aren't you?
John Shull 46:49
Hey there, buddy. You from West Virginia?
Nick VinZant 46:52
I couldn't I could West Virginia. Accent, okay, anyway, anyways. Can
John Shull 46:55
of the month, here we are going to go with something as we head into the Can you believe we are already heading into the fall months.
Nick VinZant 47:03
Yeah. Can't believe
John Shull 47:05
it.
Nick VinZant 47:06
Believe it. I can't believe any I don't care what amount of time somebody is describing, I can't believe it. If somebody said, can you believe it's been this amount of time, if it's been five minutes, it's been 10 years, it's been 2025 years, no matter what description of time somebody is applying. I can't believe it. Can you believe it's been five seconds? Can you believe it's been 22 minutes since we started recording this? Can you believe it's been 40 years since you were born? I can't believe any of it. I cannot believe any unit of time.
John Shull 47:37
Time is just a construct, my friend. I
Nick VinZant 47:40
don't know that's real, but whatever,
John Shull 47:43
exactly. All right, so I believe for all of you candle connoisseurs out there, we're gonna go to an old classic of mine,
Nick VinZant 47:51
and you're gonna do your first candle of the month in three months, and it's gonna be some recycled piece of shit.
John Shull 47:58
No, the company. Oh, not the Jesus. Can you calm down? It's good to see that your anger has taken us a step back. You seem really calm. So we're heading over to Goose Creek, Goose Creek candle.com and our can of the month. This month is going to be the witches cauldron, three wick candle, and it's on sale. Should be on sale for a little while. They have a actually, I really like a lot of their candles, so when you get over there, try a bunch of them. But picked witch's cauldron for several reasons. It has a cool color. It's purple black. Their art on their glass jars. Is pretty awesome, too, by the way, this one, you're gonna get a mix of lavender, little piney little tree, just gonna make you feel like you're, you're walking, you know, on on an on a brisk night, on Halloween, on a street, you know, walking up to the houses, getting candy. And, yeah, it's it's good. It'll last you. It'll burden for about 24 hours, which I don't have it downstairs with me because I was unprepared. But I do think I'm going to start showing off my candle burning journal on the next next month, podcast that we do candle the month.
Nick VinZant 49:20
Wait a minute. You have a journal.
John Shull 49:26
It's about candle burn a journal. It's part of my journal, but I have a specific page to how long the candle burns, if I like it, you know, if you know, two, week, three week, blah, blah, blah.
Nick VinZant 49:41
How many candles would you say are in this journal?
John Shull 49:45
Been doing it since last summer? So probably 65 maybe more. Maybe I don't know, I'll show you next time. We'll show show you what three episodes from now, whenever the first one in September is.
Nick VinZant 50:00
Okay. Okay. I mean, how do you think that people would react if they see your if, like you pass on and they're going through your stuff, and then they see this journal you have that has different candle burning times in it, like, what do you think that your ancestors are going to think when they see this
John Shull 50:22
man. This was a refined human with a palette like Van Goghs.
Nick VinZant 50:32
You couldn't take anybody, could you?
John Shull 50:34
I was gonna say, I was gonna say Julie Caesar, but I'm like he wasn't a refined person. I
Nick VinZant 50:41
think that's the meaning of palette. Like, palette is generally, like, taste like you have class.
John Shull 50:45
Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, classy when people
Nick VinZant 50:49
look at Van, but that Van Gogh, just a painter. Like, I don't know if that necessarily.
John Shull 50:54
Listen, when people look at me, they think classy. They think there is a man who was put together from
Nick VinZant 50:59
head to toe. How many wrestling action figures do you have? Oh, my
John Shull 51:04
God, I have an update. I don't know if I want to share it on this podcast. Oh, what'd you get? Oh, no, no. It's not even what I have. It's about what's going to happen. Okay, you know what I'm gonna leave it, I'm gonna tease it. You gotta tune in next episode and we'll reveal it, or I'll reveal it.
Nick VinZant 51:21
Okay, alright, but it's big sell. There any since we've been gone? Is there any big, any major controversies in the candle connoisseur forum? Any big candle controversy since we've been gone?
John Shull 51:34
Yeah, there's been a few, actually, but a couple. I mean, obviously, given our current administration in the White House, my God, there's a terror candle tariffs. Oh yeah, the tariffs have a, you know, wax. Wax comes from all seven continents. Well, not Australia
Nick VinZant 51:51
or Antarctica, but no wax in Antarctica, yeah,
John Shull 51:55
yeah, yeah. But nothing crazy. Nothing crazy. But okay.
Nick VinZant 51:58
How many comments do you think you've left
John Shull 52:02
in three months, probably 20? Nothing wrong with that.
Nick VinZant 52:10
It's not this year so into candles. It's like, why aren't you doing something with this? I wish I had something that I was as interested in as you are interested in candles. I feel like you should be doing more with this passion that you have to just sitting around fucking sniffing the
John Shull 52:24
air. What I'm gonna do? Make a tick tock channel, I don't know. Make your own candles. Teddy Bear sniffs candles. You could be doing something big bad. John the candle connoisseur. Candle looks small in his hand, but big in his heart, like,
Nick VinZant 52:40
I mean something like, there's, there you go.
John Shull 52:43
No, I'm actually, you know what? I I've taken a break from social media for the most part, and it's been very refreshing. So,
Nick VinZant 52:54
okay, all right. Are you ready for our top five? Maybe. So these are so our top five is top five cars with the worst drivers. Obviously, we're going to be stereotyping a lot. There's no actual scientific research in this. It's just basically like, I see a bad driver. They seem to be driving these types of cars a lot. It's your number five.
John Shull 53:15
I'm totally stereotyping, and my number one may piss off some of our most faithful supporters, but so we're trying to go with it. So my number five, I feel like this should be higher, but I have some pretty good ones on my list. So my number five is going to be anyone who drives a really expensive sports car in an area where it should not be driven. And by that, I mean like when you see a $500,000 Lamborghini rolling down my town streets, it's like, you know, nobody should be driving that car in Metro Detroit.
Nick VinZant 53:54
Oh, my son almost got the Master Sword in Zelda. Which one tears of the kingdom or Breath of the Wild. Okay, all right. Well, go get him. Oh, well, thanks for letting me know, man, you know what? I take that as a great honor. I take that as a great honor that when one of your children does something, the first thing they want to do is tell you about it. So you should always listen. I don't care what it is,
John Shull 54:22
you should tell that that kid that he needs to be better.
Nick VinZant 54:26
He's really working on it. I mean, he's not a great Zelda player like i He's been playing Smash Brothers for a Super Smash, Super Smash, and he's been playing a lot, and I picked it up in about a week, and just now I whip his ass. Don't ever test your father, son. Don't forget who your dad is. My number five is any Pontiac. If you see a Pontiac, there's a very good chance that person's a bad driver. Like, you see somebody weaving in and out of traffic, like, oh, Pontiac driver. Any Pontiac is going to be a bad driver. My
John Shull 54:59
number. Four is any, anyone in a minivan? Oh, minivan, minivan. Minivan drivers are just they're selfish. They don't pay attention. They're usually, you know, they usually have too much going on inside, much going
Nick VinZant 55:17
on. They're too distracted. Yeah, I didn't put it on my list, but I could have gone, like, any Lincoln, a Lincoln or a Buick, that's going to be like, Oh, watch out. You don't know when they're going to turn. You know they're not accelerating. Yep, my number four is BMWs, specifically the BMW cars. You nobody in a BMW is letting you in and they are going to cut you off in a heartbeat. Sure are sure exactly. Everybody knows it. Everybody knows BMW drivers are kind of jerks.
John Shull 55:55
They're not even like that. They used to be a look luxury car. They're like at the bottom of luxury now
Nick VinZant 56:01
it's a nice car. I would say that BMWs are at the top of the nice car list. Mercedes starts kind of being like, that's a luxury car.
John Shull 56:13
Yeah, for sure, it's number three. Number Three are Amazon delivery trucks.
Nick VinZant 56:19
Oh yeah, you just know that they're
John Shull 56:22
going to stop in front of you, or they're going to take up the entire road, or they're going to turn without turning the turn signal on, like it's just, it's just annoying. I don't even get behind them. I do my best to try to go around them every time I see one of them.
Nick VinZant 56:38
So I work remotely part of the week. And there is a FedEx guy in my neighborhood who has been here for several years, and he is a problem. He is a problem. I have seen him in multiple, multiple almost fights with other people. He once parked in like a narrow way where only one car could go, and one car kind of had to pull over or back up or something. He once parked there, and he was there for 45 minutes fighting with another delivery driver.
John Shull 57:10
That's his car. That's that union luxury. They're still getting paid no matter what they're doing.
Nick VinZant 57:15
He is a problem. He is a problem. He that package is never getting to your door. It is never, never, not going to be damaged. Is always blocking the road. He is a problem. Never. Gotta love unions, uh, my number three is any kind of loud car, like, if you hear a loud car coming, you know, that person's a bad driver. I'm not talking about this thing is tuned up for the raceway kind. I put some exhaust on it because I want to go. Want to go fast. I'm just talking like, if this car is just making a lot of, like, loud noise, like, it doesn't have an exhaust on it, or you thought it'd be cool to, like, put, take off the muffler, like, that's going to be a bad driver. They're not. They're not. They're just warning you to stay out of the way, is what they really are doing.
John Shull 57:58
Yeah. I mean, it's, God forbid you look at one of the cars too, because they probably have a dent, or they're smashed up, or they have tinted windows where you can't see, yeah, just stay out of the way. Just don't even
Nick VinZant 58:11
try. You got to watch out. What's your number two?
John Shull 58:15
Like I wrote down, like Metro Transit busses, but like, public transportation busses, you know, like, D, dot, M, dot, those kinds of busses, because they don't give a shit. Like, they will pull out in front of you. They will stop to pick people up, like the ones here in Metro Detroit, when they have someone that's going around to like, the other side of the road, they don't even put flashers out half the time. Like, you don't even know what's happening. Oh, I
Nick VinZant 58:43
mean, I live in Seattle, which puts a big emphasis on public transportation, and I feel like they're pretty good drivers, so maybe it's just a Detroit thing, because the entire city is crumbling.
John Shull 58:52
Yeah, we're losing our mayor, too. He is. He's running for governor as an independent. Write in candidate. Alright,
Nick VinZant 58:59
my number two is Nissan Altima drivers. If you see somebody blasting past you 20 miles an hour over the speed limit, I guarantee that's going to be somebody with a Nissan Altima. They are menaces on the road. That's a license to be a menace.
John Shull 59:16
Yeah. That's very specific for a Nissan Altima.
Nick VinZant 59:20
Specifically in Nissan Altima, I really had a hard time not putting as my number
John Shull 59:24
one. Oh, I think I think number one should be unanimous for sure. Oh, okay, what's your number one? My number one are drivers that drive f1 50s or Chevy Silverado trucks.
Nick VinZant 59:37
Ooh, I went big trucks, but I specifically went Ram truck drivers. Okay,
John Shull 59:43
yeah, I didn't even put them on. I just man, every single time. And I'm not going to rant, but I want to, it's the same kind of demographic of individual, some old, crusty white dude with a cigarette in his mouth and long white hair. And it's just like, I get you. Don't give a shit. I get it. But like, just because you drive a bigger vehicle than me does not give you the right to be an asshole.
Nick VinZant 1:00:08
Oh, they are, like, the if I guarantee, I would be willing to bet that if you check your rear view mirror, don't see anything. Then you check your rear view mirror again, and there's suddenly a car right behind you. It's going to be a Dodge Ram.
John Shull 1:00:26
You know what I do now is, I mean, I go the speed limit, and I think I'm a very fair driver, but if I have somebody that comes right up from behind me as I'm stopped and like I can't see their hood, like they're that close to my car, I will just sit there for 10 seconds just waiting to see what's going to happen. Now that's probably not the smartest thing to do, but I'm just over it, like, I don't know, I don't know how drivers are in Seattle, but drivers and everything's under construction here, by the way, which does not make people very happy. Everyone's crazy on the road, but f1 50 and Silverado truck drivers are the worst.
Nick VinZant 1:01:04
Oh, big trucks drivers, yeah, yeah, they don't have a lot of consideration for other people. Uh, what's in your honor? Do you have anything in your honor? Mention?
John Shull 1:01:12
I don't know if this one counts, but I put construction vehicles that go five mile an hour as they're moving from site to site, frequent stops. I also have street sweepers because I still have no idea why the hell we have street sweepers
Nick VinZant 1:01:26
in the street you've obviously never paid attention to that. I actually complimented one time when I was working as a reporter. I complimented the guy who was the councilman for the area that I was living in about how good a job the Street Sweepers did, because it looked fantastic.
John Shull 1:01:42
Get out and brush off your own street. I mean, we don't need to be paying 1000s of dollars to have it done. I'm sorry.
Nick VinZant 1:01:49
People don't. Things need maintenance. John, the only other, the only two that I have, would be like Buick and Lincoln drivers, just because, you know they're going slow anything with you're driving a big boat of a vehicle like that, ain't gonna work out very well. And then I have a Toyota Prius accelerate, like, go.
John Shull 1:02:08
I wrote down Chrysler, 200 drivers. Oh, yeah, Christ, Challenger, like,
Nick VinZant 1:02:18
man, any kind of like, dodge caught product, it's gonna be a problem. Okay? That's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. It feels good to be back. It's been really nice to know that you're not alone. So I want to thank John. I want to thank everybody who reached out. We're not We're not out of the woods yet, but things look things look brighter and better. And it's weird how after you go through something, you do really come out stronger. So if you're going through something, there's light at the end of the tunnel. All right. Thanks. You.