From Ed Gein and Ted Bundy, to BTK and Jeffrey Dahmer, Criminologist Dr. Katherine Ramsland has spent the last 30 years studying serial killers - trying to find out what drives them to kill. We talk the mind of a serial killer, the worst serial killers you’ve never heard of and why we’re fascinated by them. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Sports Cities
Dr. Katherine Ramsland: 01:11
Pointless: 33:40
Top 5 Worst Sports Cities: 55:00
Interview with Serial Killer Researcher Dr. Katherine Ramsland
Nick VinZant 0:00
Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode serial killers and sports cities,
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 0:21
I think people are fascinated by the idea that someone can kill and then kill again, rather than be totally repulsed by the initial act. Certainly, the criminals who are psychopaths are the most unrelenting and remorseless group of serial killers, and that's typically who we're most fascinated by but that we definitely have killers who have never been caught. So and may never be caught,
Nick VinZant 0:48
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because she has spent more than 30 years studying the minds of serial killers. This is criminologist, Dr Catherine ramsland. I have in my mind what I think a serial killer is, from a criminologist standpoint, though, what is a serial killer?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 1:20
The definition of a serial killer has evolved over the years, but if you go with the FBI, is definition which most of American law enforcement does. It's somebody who has killed at least two people on at least two separate occasions, and that's all. There's nothing else in that definition that seems like such a
Nick VinZant 1:41
lower definition than what I think of as a serial killer, because I think of like Ted Bundy, I think of Jeffrey Dahmer, those kind of people, not someone who's just killed two
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 1:52
people. It used to be much more involved, but then it left out people like it. Like one definition they used to have was different locations. Well, that leaves out John Wayne Gacy, and then they had this, the cooling off period. And nobody knew what they meant, neither did they. So they dropped that. Then some of the definitions were motivational. It was only sexually motivated. But then what about people kill over greed or emission or anger? So that left them up and and so after in 2005 they had a huge symposium with law enforcement and criminologists to try to hammer out a definition that what everybody thought would work, and that was the one they came up with, though I think it's far too broad.
Nick VinZant 2:36
Why? OD, we seem so fascinated by it.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 2:39
I think people are fascinated by the idea that someone can kill and then kill again, rather than be totally repulsed by the initial act, and that in particular, that they can be predatory and planful and really think about killing and wanting to kill, especially certain types of People, like like college students or sex workers or children. So I think people are really fascinated by the kind of person who can work their way past the typical revulsion overtaking a human life, and want to do it and even get addicted to doing
Nick VinZant 3:19
it. What is kind of going on inside of their head. Like, if I killed somebody, I would have remorse. I would be thinking about it all the time. But for them, like, what's kind of going on inside of their mind when they're doing this after they do this? And if you need to use one specific example,
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 3:39
I mean, there are some web remorse, and they hang themselves or shoot themselves or turn themselves in, and we have a few like that. There are some who are psychotic, so not even thinking about it. So it's really hard to pinpoint what's going on said their head in a generic sense, because each case is its own trajectory toward violence. Some some start in their teens, some start many years later when they're in their 50s. So what's going on in their head? Sometimes it's a fantasy. It's a fantasy of control or a fantasy of lust, and they imagine themselves doing something, and they keep thinking and rehearsing it over and over and over until one day they get an opportunity. And so then they they just go for it and decide at that point, is it all it was cracked up to be in my fantasy? And if it is, they'll want to do it again and again. If it's not, they may stop at that point. So what is going on in their head really depends on the case, and that's what I would I would want to do. I'd want to know more about the circumstances, the motivation, some of their background, the victim type, what they actually did to the person, how they what they did afterward. You. That's how we understand what's going on in their head. Is there
Nick VinZant 5:03
one that you could point to to kind of help us contextualize, like, like this person was thinking this, etc, etc.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 5:09
Well, I mean, we can look at what Dennis rader's for example. He's somebody I've been talking to for 15 years, and he started out with a fantasy life as an adolescent, he would read through detective magazines that his father hid under the car seat, and he saw things in these magazines that gave him a fantasy life, and especially with bondage, because he had a thing for ropes and for being bound himself. And he went into the military. He made himself a hit kit. Once he got out, he began to look for opportunities to experience this. He was a voyeur. He'd break into homes. He'd look through windows, and kept this fantasy life alive. And kind of aligned himself with the serial killers he'd read about, HH Holmes and Harvey glattman, for example, he saw some of them in during the 1970s getting headlines, and he wanted that for himself. So it was a gradual development. And then he got fired from a job that he really loved, which made him angry. He wanted to exert control, and he had already been watching a woman and her daughter, and so he broke into the house and it killed a family of four as his first victims. That's very unusual, but you can we can definitely see the trajectory from his adolescence to the point in his late 20s, when he actually acted out, and then when he got away with it, wanted to do it again. But more carefully this time
Nick VinZant 6:40
is that generally, what you have seen, it's a build up. Or can it sometimes be a thing that just one day
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 6:51
they go for it? It can be reactive. It can be anger based, for example, or can be mission based, like, let's say they have a religious delusion, and they think that they have to do something with sex workers. That would be Gary Ridgway, for example, the Green River Killer. He thought of himself as helping the police clean up the streets, but also it was just something he wanted to do. He was kind of a nick of file as well. He would return to the bodies, and as he put it, until there were too many maggots even for his own. Yeah, so he's he's different, he's unusual, and they're not a lot who were like that. But he had a mission in his mind, and that was part of it. Robert Hanssen wanted to sort of set them loose and chase them like a hunter. So that was the challenge that he wanted. Jeffrey Dahmer wanted a unconscious body that he could have complete control over. So it's really case by case. It's not easy. There's a build up in many of them if they if they're led by a fantasy life. But they're not all led by a fantasy life. Some serial killers are agreed motivated. They want money, they want or or health care. Serial killers they're wanting to to control or to punish.
Nick VinZant 8:12
Why is it so variable?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 8:15
Because the definition of a serial killer is about a behavior. It's not about a mental state. So within that frame of that behavior, which is very broad, you can have a lot of different mental states.
Nick VinZant 8:29
Is there something that you would say, even in a very general sense, that seems to unite them and they have these characteristics, or this kind of psychology, or anything that seems to kind of be a thread that they share.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 8:45
A high percentage of them would be considered psychopaths. And we can, we can divide psychopaths into primary and secondary. Primary would be those who have seemed to be born with a certain type of brain chemistry, that they have a low startle reflex, they have low emotionality. They don't have any remorse for what they do. They're very manipulative and narcissistic, a secondary psychopath, if somebody is more reactive and environmentally formed into being a callous person. So we have a high percentage of both in among the population of serial killers, but they're not all psychopaths, so it's very hard for me to give you a overarching umbrella response to what do they all share? Because it's a behavioral based definition.
Nick VinZant 9:40
Would most people describe them like, would they be considered crazy? That we
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 9:44
do have some psychotic serial killers. One wanted thought his blood was turning to powder, so he thought he had to kill people to to get the blood to so for him, it was self defense. We definitely. Have some some psychotic people. Ed Gein, who's currently featured on Monster, he's another one who was diagnosed with schizophrenia late in life, and were his murders based on psychotic ideas, probably, but for the most part, they're not crazy. They're not insane. They do know what they're doing. They just don't care about what society thinks of them. They're doing what they want to do in a way that gratifies them. Would you
Nick VinZant 10:33
say from, I don't know if this is your area or not necessarily, but if you were to, like, look at their brain X rays, MRIs, whatever would you be able to see differences between their brain and ours, whether that is structural or kind of, how it responds to it? And again, I know we're throwing out, like, massive generalities in this
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 10:53
sense, we you can't, just like you wouldn't be able to take the brain of a dead serial killer, and kind of, some people have done that, and you don't find the differences in the structure. You find the differences in the way, in the blood flow patterns when they respond to things, when they're doing decision making or problem solving or reacting to an image, we will see differences in in different areas of the brain that light up versus a normal brain. Something is going on with the brain of those who have no remorse and who are coldly, Calculatedly killers,
Nick VinZant 11:32
but I would imagine that there's lots of people that have the same kind of brain makeup that they do that don't end up being
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 11:39
serial killer, right? Because not all psychopaths are even criminal, let alone murderers or serial killers, but they still could have the same brain structure, and sometimes it's a matter of a difference in their upbringing and their opportunities. And you know, the kinds of things that they pursue to get their own gratification. You know, they might find a very powerful place as a banker or a politician or something like that, so they're not really interested in criminal behavior. But certainly the criminals who are psychopaths are the most unrelenting and remorseless group of serial killers, and that's typically who we're most fascinated by, because we can't understand that mental state. We look at Ted Bundy, who seemed to have, he was, you know, good, looking and intelligent, and he had the potential for a career in law or politics, and instead, he was choosing something that would derail it all, and did derail it all well. In his mind, he didn't think he'd get caught, so that's narcissistic immunity. And even when he was caught, he didn't think he'd be convicted, let alone executed. In his mind, he's always got this narcissistic defense mechanism going on that I'm too special, that something's going to save me. So they have that kind of barrier always that they're unusual, they're unique, they're, you know, they're not going to get caught. They're smarter than most people. That's often what's going on in their minds. Those people fascinate us because we wonder, how did they get that way to the point where they have the boldness to kill and keep killing, and then to visit dead bodies and to take parts of dead bodies. I mean, we know Bundy beheaded many of his victims, and in some cases, kept the heads. What's with that? Why? What could that possibly it's the one thing to take earrings or shoes as a trophy, to read, to remind yourself, but to have heads in your apartment. What is that about? And I think that's what what fascinates us about them.
Nick VinZant 13:54
And what would that would using Ted Bundy, for example, if his life had taken a different turn and he got what seems to be this acknowledgement that he was so special in another venue. Would he have not would this not have happened?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 14:09
Well, he did get a lot of acknowledgement. I mean, he was, he was working for a political committee, and was getting a lot of, oh, we think you could be the governor of Washington State. You know, he wasn't doing that well in law school. It was kind of over his head. But he graduated with a BA in Psychology with, I don't think it was honors, but he did well enough to get through. So he's getting some of his it's about their fantasy what? What do they envision for themselves? And if he had a fantasy life going, typically by adolescence, that's, you know, early adolescence, that fantasy life is starting to take hold. So it's really, what is the fantasy life about? Is it about punishment? Is about control, is about some kind of fear. Is it about lust and do the things that. Are currently in your life satisfy you the way this does so if not, then they're creating a double life. There they have this facade that they show the public in order to pass and succeed and do various things. Like Dennis Rader was president of his church congregation. He was a family man. He had kids, he would college degrees, but at the same time, he had this double life going on of something that satisfied this inner core of this is what made him feel alive. Was strangling, binding. It actually isn't, isn't that he wanted necessarily to kill people so much as he wanted to bind them and feel power over them. But of course, then he had to kill them because they were witnesses to criminal behavior. And we find that in a lot of serial killers, it isn't necessarily about the death, though it is for some but, but there are killers like Dean coral, The Candy Man, for example, who wanted to torture and rape these young boys, but then the death was just a way to get rid of them, because they now had witnessed him doing these things.
Nick VinZant 16:14
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Is Killing the goal or killing the byproduct of what they were trying to do.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 16:20
It depends on the on the killer. What? What is it they're after? Some do like the death. It's the death that they and I think Bundy did. It's the death that they savor the feeling of being God and the power of life and death over this person and watching the light leave their eyes while they're, you know, got their hands around their neck. So for some, that is what it is, but others simply, they want to do something to a person, but they don't want to go to prison, so now they have to kill them.
Nick VinZant 16:53
Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions. Sure. Do they want to get caught? Because they always seem, not always, but a lot of them seem to be doing things, sending letters to police, etc, etc. Do they want to be caught? In some ways,
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 17:10
it's a myth that serial killers want to be caught. That is a myth that rose up during the 1990s 30 years ago, with based on very poor research. No, they want to keep doing what they're doing because that's what's satisfying. They don't want to be thrown into prison or potentially executed and stopped from doing what they're doing. They don't have a conscience. Often people think they want to get caught because they do have a conscience. Well, those people actually end up turning themselves in or doing something you know, that will undermine them. A few of them, a lot of them, have made mistakes. I have one one book how to catch a killer. I have 30 cases of serial killers and how they got caught and and there's a whole category for those who've made some mistakes. But did they so? Do they subconsciously want to get caught? Probably not. I don't think so.
Nick VinZant 18:00
Why do they seem to be hard to catch?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 18:05
Well, some aren't. Some are obviously very easy to catch and have been caught quickly. But those who are are hard to catch are typically flying under the radar, finding finding ways to deflect investigations, finding ways to kill without leaving much evidence, if any. And they study forensics to see what needs to be, what they need to do to elude law enforcement, so that few of them have lasted, like with rent Dennis radar, 30 years is a long time to not be caught, but that we definitely have killers who have never been caught, so and may never be caught.
Nick VinZant 18:45
How many people this is going to sound a certain way, but I think you know what they mean by this. How many people does someone have to kill before people really start paying attention?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 18:54
That's exactly what Dennis Rader said. He He wrote a letter to the Wichita newspaper saying, how many do I have to kill before I get headlines like Ted Bundy, usually it isn't about how many. It's about what type of victim. So someone like Sam little who claimed he killed 93 was not getting any attention because he was choosing victims who don't really command much law enforcement attention, drug addicts, sex workers, you know, people, homeless people. So he killed for decades before he got any attention. So it's but it but if somebody's killing kids or college students, they're going to get attention, or, let's say, the Unabomber who sent out bombs to kill scientists that got a lot of attention. So it's not really about how many, it's about the victim type
Nick VinZant 19:53
picked, right? It's how quickly can I establish a pattern?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 19:58
Yeah, but it's a type. A victim that society cares about. Is there a
Nick VinZant 20:03
certain population that they seem to target, like if you looked at all the serial killers that you've looked at, is there a certain they seem to go after this?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 20:15
Oh, there's a high number who go after sex workers because they're an easy target. They're willing to get into strangers cars, they're willing to put themselves in vulnerable positions for money, and because of that, they they are in harm's way. Probably they're, they're considered high risk victims. But then I also think young females are is another high number of serial killers go after young females.
Nick VinZant 20:44
Are there categories of serial killers in the sense that, oh, this person was this type, and this person was this type,
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 20:51
there are multiple categories of serial killers, and multiple people have weighed in on what they they are. I actually wrote a whole blog and all the different types of categorization that people have used. I have one where I categorize them by motive, because we have a lot of different motives that are represented among serial killers. Other people have categorized them according to the level of risk they took. Or you can put healthcare serial killers into one category that could include doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, you know, whatever anyone in the health care industry. But even within that, you can have sub categories. So it really depends on what approach somebody wants to take in terms of what categories you know are useful.
Nick VinZant 21:41
The healthcare one seems to fly under the radar more than the other ones, because the
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 21:47
Healthcare Association is, you think somebody going into healthcare is going in because they want to help people. They want to heal people. So you don't really suspect they're entering with malign motives. And often they they don't enter thinking they want to kill people, but they might turn sour on the job. They might get angry at patients or at doctors or, you know, at something that's going on at work and or they might go in with some kind of mental disorder, like Munchausen by Munchausen syndrome by proxy. So, but it's just a place that people aren't expecting somebody to want to target patients.
Nick VinZant 22:32
Should someone have known? Should these people, should their family members, friends, whatever? Should somebody have known that this was either happening or that there were signs of this.
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 22:46
It depends on the killer, because, in some cases, yeah, we have the children of serial killers who now write memoirs and whatnot, or the spouses or parents. Sometimes, in some cases, they did see things, like Jeffrey dahmer's dad probably wrote the one of the best memoirs, where he saw things, but he reframed them in the most benign way, which you will do with your family. I was just watching the the Unabomber series, where the brother just couldn't bring himself to believe it. His his brother, his older brother, what could possibly be the Unabomber? Even though it was right, all the things are right there in front of him and his wife was saying, look here, look here. It's it's got to be him. I think when you're in the in a family situation, you don't, especially if you're living in the same house with the person, you're going to give them as much room as possible, and you're going to frame whatever you see in the most benign way which which some relatives of serial killers have done, and admittedly so. And I would definitely refer anybody interested in that question to Lionel dahmer's book about his son, Jeffrey, because he talks about, you know, the many times he gave excuses to things that Jeffrey did. But on the other hand, like Dennis Rader, was very, very good at hiding who he was and when he was caught, he had many advocates going to the courthouse. You have the wrong guy, you have the wrong guy. They're very good, but Ted Bundy was very good at hiding from the people close to him. But there's a there's a good memoir by his cousin, who talks about also not believing it until she saw certain things after his first arrest for burglary, and he came back to Seattle and and she says, Oh my god, oh my god. This could be him, because of how he's acting right now, but had he never been arrested, I don't know that she would have ever seen anything. So we have the as human beings. We have the potential to share. Shift our perceptions and interpret them the way that we need to, and I think it's very hard for people who are close to one of these killers to actually recognize what they're seeing in front of them. Now that's not true about the healthcare serial killers. You have a whole list of red flags and behaviors that they do over and over, so that anyone who's really alert can start to see some of these red flags. But that's not the same as a relative.
Nick VinZant 25:29
How does a serial killer differ from a mass murderer? From like a criminology perspective, how do they differ?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 25:35
Well, a mass murderer, usually it's a one event, at least four people dead in one very contained event. Sometimes they might travel a little bit like through a building or something, right? It's all one. And typically, they're driven by anger, some kind of need to punish, some kind of need to make a statement. We know who they are. You know, with serial killers, there's a lot more in the shadows, and they don't they're not trying to make a big statement with what they're doing. And also, there's the middle group, spree killers, who are like mass murderers, but they extend it out geographically, and also sometimes over a period of time, but they're still caught in the throws of this precipitating incident, this anger, and they and they just keep moving and acting out. But they're not like serial killers.
Nick VinZant 26:32
Is that odd when you talk to them, though, like you know what they did?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 26:36
Yeah, but I'm but I'm in there for clinical reasons. I'm not befriending them, I'm studying them, and they know that that's that's the deal. So, so then it's not that odd, really, because then I have a I have a purpose and a goal for what I'm trying to do, and I'm talking with them, and
Nick VinZant 27:00
even if they don't maybe show remorse, or they don't seem to show compassion, did they seem intrigued or confused or wonder why they do this? Like, why did I turn out like that?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 27:12
Oh, yeah, that, and that's why they are willing to talk to me. They do want to explore. Bundy was like that. He wanted to explore. You know, some don't care they or they're just going to play. You there's a few that, I mean, I wouldn't talk to you, because I know they're just going to lie and manipulate and play games. But yeah, they do want to explore. And Raider, we spent five years working on on his book, and he did do some hard work thinking through reading things that were tough and thinking through how it applied to him and whatnot. Henley was very exploratory. But, you know, he he was his IQ, I think was 126 and he was a reader, so he was very easy to talk to and really get through things with, even though it was hard for him to remember, to think about the things he had done that he wanted to disavow. But you know, so I don't have an answer for who's nice, but certainly if they don't want to explore, if they don't want to reflect over it, then I don't want to talk to him. I will spend my time doing something with someone who does i It's not like I just going out and want to talk to oh, I need a serial killer. I don't. I want to talk to those who want to do the work, because it's hard work and it's time consuming and it's expensive, and I'm not investing my resources in somebody who doesn't want to do
Nick VinZant 28:39
it. Who do you think is really Jack the Ripper? Us?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 28:43
You have too hard. It's very complicated, very complicated. And there's a book as like, 333, suspects. And after I read it, I said, well, they don't have two that I know of. There are so many suspects, and I I don't even accept the, what they call the canonical five victims. I don't even accept all of them as Jack the Ripper victims. So it was too that's too complicated for we're
Nick VinZant 29:10
never going to really find out right now. I
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 29:13
There are people, there are people who think they do know, because there's been some DNA, but there are problems with the DNA and the it's too complicated. It's very complicated.
Nick VinZant 29:23
Is there another one besides, like, Jack the Ripper seems like the big mystery. The Zodiac one seemed like the big mystery. Yeah. Is there other ones that are kind of huge mysteries? Are those? Those are the, really, the big
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 29:37
two. Those are the two, probably the two biggest, you know, in this, in serial killer land, you also have the jump in a thing, and Lizzie Borden, did she do it? You know, those are the cases that haunt us, so to speak. But in serial killers, it's really the Zodiac and the Ripper are the two big ones.
Nick VinZant 29:55
Why are there so many like, why are there so few women? There's
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 29:59
quite a few women. Female serial killers. Many of them are on teams because they're married to the killers. A few of them have led the way on the teams. I think there's something like 12% of serial killers are women.
Nick VinZant 30:14
Oh, I thought it was like, there's been two and all
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 30:18
the problem is many people think that what you see in the media is all there is, which is a common misperception. The media doesn't cover them all. Doesn't cover all the black serial killers. It doesn't cover all the serial killers of other races in other countries, but there are out there, so unfortunately, too many people frame their understanding on what they're seeing or hearing on podcasts, but there's you really have to immerse in the literature to understand that there's a lot more to the story than what you're typically seeing.
Nick VinZant 30:56
Yeah, that's I mean, for the level of fascination that we have and the type of crime that they commit. When you said, I think earlier, there was 5000 of them, I could only name maybe
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 31:08
10, 5000 documented. How does it
Nick VinZant 31:11
go under the radar?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 31:12
It doesn't go under the radar. For criminologists, we're well aware of these cases, and we immerse in them, and we learn about them so that we can study patterns and talk about how many, what's the percentage of females or health care or adolescents? So we do have to know about them, but most people aren't attuned to the the expert literature, they're looking at, popular culture,
Nick VinZant 31:45
is that, like, the ones that slip through, right? Like in this, again, throwing out numbers, if I only kind of know about maybe 10 to 20 of them, why does the 4980 I don't know about, like, what is it about them that just, they just slip past,
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 32:01
yeah, and I asked that production crews all the time, because it's the same ones, over and over and over. I've been on many, many documentaries, as many on Bundy, many on Gacy, BTK, they just keep doing the same ones. Why? Because when they pitch to get the funding, they have to have what they think is clearly they're going to get an audience. If you pitch Joseph Duncan, for example, who killed kids and did horrifically awful things to them, No one's buying that, nobody. So no audience is going to hear much about it unless they seek out a book about it. So that's part of the
Nick VinZant 32:42
problem. What's kind of coming up next for you? Where can people find your books that kind of stuff?
Dr. Katherine Ramsland 32:48
Well, the serial killers apprentice is the one I did with Henley that actually just won a big award and was made into a documentary that was number one in HBO. So they can that was that came out in August. You can see that. And I have a crime fiction novel series that the fourth one just came out, also in August, and that features a female forensic psychologist who runs a PI agency.
Nick VinZant 33:18
I want to thank Dr ramsland, so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. And if you want to see more of this episode, the YouTube version is live now. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Would you rather watch a close game or a blowout
Speaker 1 33:52
neck and neck?
Nick VinZant 33:53
See, I don't want to see a close game. The tension is too much for me. I want to see my team, or whoever I'm rooting for, comfortably win.
John Shull 34:01
I like, I like the competition, even if it involves my team. You can't win if you don't fucking score runs.
Nick VinZant 34:09
No, you generally can't win any sporting event if you don't score points. That's I like that. That's good analysis. Keep them coming. You got any other gems? Know?
John Shull 34:18
What I love is, is you, you're such a troll, you don't, you didn't even know Seattle played baseball.
Nick VinZant 34:25
Oh, well. I mean, they clearly play baseball better than Detroit.
John Shull 34:30
That's fair. That's fair. I'll take it. I got, I got
Nick VinZant 34:32
nothing. What about a TV show, though? Will you do you like a lot of tension in a TV show or a movie?
John Shull 34:40
I do, but I have to make sure I'm watching it alone. Because if I'm saying I'm watching it with my wife, she will Wikipedia the result in most times blurted out and it just it ruins it. It ruins the suspense, the surprise.
Nick VinZant 34:57
The more I like a TV show, the less that I watch. Shit like, when the tension really starts to build, I'll start first leaving the room, like I can't handle this. That's why I never finished Breaking Bad.
John Shull 35:08
Yeah, you'd rather watch and read manga, right?
Nick VinZant 35:12
Yeah, I just want, I just want to watch everything. Everybody be happy. I don't really feel the need to have any more drama or tension in my life, not that I have any more than anybody else or anything like that. I just don't want any drama or tension in my life. Like, there's enough suspense.
John Shull 35:30
I have realized this as I've gotten older, is that I would rather watch like a funny Disney movie over a horror movie most nights. Like, I just want something positive and happy instead of sad and, you know, scary.
Nick VinZant 35:47
That's why I mainly watch, like, animated cartoon movies. There's no tension in there. Everything's gonna be all right. You don't have to worry about it. Everything's gonna be all right. Everything's gonna be all right. Studio, Ghibli movies, Kiki's Delivery Service, Ponyo, everything's
John Shull 36:03
okay. That's like I, you know, as a teenager in America, because I know we have a hefty international fan base here. There's a couple of channels that run like Halloween movie marathons for the entire month. And I used to love that, but I don't. I don't even care anymore. Like I don't want to watch Freddy Krueger or Michael Myers or Jason, for the most part, anymore?
Nick VinZant 36:25
Oh, nothing scarier than real life. Yeah, you're not there. Nothing scarier than real life. That's That's enough tension scariness for me. Yeah?
John Shull 36:36
Well, I'm not gonna watch a manga animated feature, but I'll watch a Disney movie. And
Nick VinZant 36:41
you know what? We also won't? You know what you also won't be watching?
John Shull 36:45
Yeah, come on. Was expecting this all recording
Nick VinZant 36:50
Detroit Tigers because they're out of the playoffs, eliminated by the Seattle Mariners. I mean, I don't even know any I don't know a single player on the team, Cal rally, the big dumper, which probably is the worst nickname in all the sports. Like, do you want to be known as the Big dumper?
John Shull 37:04
But he got that nickname because he has apparently a really robust ass, so it's okay, except,
Nick VinZant 37:12
right? But still, I would rather have another one than the big dumper, except,
John Shull 37:18
from what I've seen during interviews with him when they've won and lost, it's he doesn't seem to have much of a personality, so not sure what happened there.
Nick VinZant 37:30
Maybe he just needs a quiet guy, man. Maybe he just lets, maybe he just lets the results on the field do the talking, and the results seem to be winning. I mean, at least they'd be beat the Tigers.
John Shull 37:41
Did you, you know what? Never I'm not gonna even ask, because you're not gonna have known doesn't even matter. Yeah, listen, it's all good. We lost. We move on. It's, it's football season, though.
Nick VinZant 37:51
No, I mean, luckily, Detroit is used to losing. But we can, we can we can move on.
John Shull 37:55
Do we ever figure out the top five? By the way, because I have two lists for two different categories. Oh,
Nick VinZant 38:01
what you what do you got?
John Shull 38:03
I mean, I have the worst, like the most, unluckiest franchises, because I wasn't sure if that's what we're doing. But I also have video game powers.
Nick VinZant 38:12
So Ooh, which one do you want to do?
John Shull 38:17
I mean, we could flip a coin. We could save one for next week. And do you know?
Nick VinZant 38:22
Well, I only did one. I only did the sport city, so I guess we have to do that, but I can there you go, the other one there. So here you go. Okay,
John Shull 38:29
yeah, I got my, my number one, just a teaser. My number one is going to send you to the moon, and I cannot wait to do that. Oh, okay, okay, okay, all right, let's give some shout outs here. We'll start off with Nigel Maxwell, good old Nigel.
Nick VinZant 38:46
Don't hear a lot of Nigel's, but it's a great name when you hear it.
John Shull 38:50
Randall, Choi Lynn Torres, Nathaniel Burton, Tanisha Dorsey, Lionel Bennett, Cecilia Goodman, or as her Instagram just called her CCG, Bianca McCann, Thad Morrison. I don't think Thad is a real name. I think that's maybe shortened for Theodore. Not sure
Nick VinZant 39:15
I would. Yeah, I guess Thad fad is not a great like, what are we gonna name him? Thad?
John Shull 39:21
Yeah, like, what does that baby look like a Thad,
Nick VinZant 39:27
I just couldn't imagine. Like, I can't imagine people who name their children after they see them. Like, what is a babe? Does a baby ever look like a name? Like, No, we were gonna name him, Noah, but let's name him Kyle. After seeing him, Kyle,
John Shull 39:46
I wonder if a baby has ever come out and someone just like, oh shit, that baby's ugly.
Nick VinZant 39:52
Yeah, dude, most babies are ugly.
John Shull 39:55
Well, how do you know it's Google? Do you do you have that in your house? You have, like, the Google Assistant or anything like that? No, anyways, we're gonna end on Ivy rush.
Nick VinZant 40:07
There we go. Does it work? Does your Google Assistant work
John Shull 40:11
from time to time? She's more annoying than anything, to be honest.
Nick VinZant 40:15
That's the problem. And we'll
John Shull 40:17
also have like, there we go, playing again. Yeah, sometimes she'll just friggin keep going and going. The scariest though, speaking of it, it seems it is Halloween month. The scariest is when you'll randomly wake up to like, a message from her at like, two or three or 4am and it's just like, you know, the house security alarm is set good night, and it's like, it's 3am What the hell are you talking
Nick VinZant 40:47
about? But it's like, yeah, that's why I don't have that stuff. I get mad at it most of the time. I'm glad Alexa doesn't have actual feelings, because if she did, I am not kind to inanimate objects that bother me with their annoying things
John Shull 41:04
start calling you big dumper. Um, I feel like we need to give a quick shout out to in memory, Diane Keaton passed away, 79 years old. RIP legendary actress.
Nick VinZant 41:20
Was she? What films was she in? The First Wives Club. Which I do like that movie, The First Wives Club. That's the first movie that I know that Diane Keaton was in. Was First Wives Club. Is she related to Michael Keaton?
John Shull 41:34
So that's I was actually, no. I do not believe she is related to the Keatons, like the Michael Keaton's
Nick VinZant 41:44
interesting spelled the same.
John Shull 41:48
Yes, I do not are not related, but I think she was most famous for her one of her first roles, which was, she was in The Godfather. Oh,
Nick VinZant 41:59
she was, yeah, I didn't know that. Yep, now I do it okay, but Godfather,
John Shull 42:08
she's won Golden Globes Academy Awards. I mean, you know, almost an EGOT winner. So, so anyways, rip 79 believes she might have been struggling with some health issues, yeah.
Nick VinZant 42:25
Like, that's, that's, that's like, okay, maybe that's a little bit young. I'm usually not expecting people to die strictly from old age, unless it's like, cancer related, until the 80s. Like, Ooh, 79 that's not, that's not, it's not that old. Speaking your 70s, I still don't think of somebody's like, Damn, you're old, not in your 70s.
John Shull 42:49
I wasn't gonna, I wasn't gonna bring this up, but this gives me a perfect segue to say this, how would you feel? So I had a couple of moles removed for my body a few, a few weeks ago, a month ago now, and I just got a call Monday of this week, and that gave me the pathology results of the moles, and two of them were cancerous. But, you know, they're not. They're whatever. I forget the terminology now, they're cancerous, but, like, pre cancerous,
Speaker 2 43:23
not a big deal.
John Shull 43:26
Is that worth a voicemail? You think they should have been like, Hey, call us back when you can.
Nick VinZant 43:35
I mean, I wouldn't leave a voicemail, any type of voicemail saying that you have cancer in any kind of a way, even if it was benign. And like, Look, these are cancerous, but it's actually not a big deal. It's not what you think, etc, etc. No, I don't think that's a voicemail, but you probably consented at some point for them to leave a voicemail. But I would not personally leave a voicemail saying that someone you have cancer. Like, Hey, we got the tests back, and it turns out you have all these STDs. That's not really a great voicemail to leave.
John Shull 44:08
You are the father, um, let's see. I mean, I wrote down like, three names. Yeah, that was it. Now I don't really want it like Dolly Parton is alive and well, apparently, apparently, there was a rumor going around like she was dead or dying, but she's next
Nick VinZant 44:26
big one. She's been she is really big one.
John Shull 44:30
I think if you were to ask me, like, who was probably, like, on, on my, on my top tier list of like, female celebrities that I don't want to see go. It would be Dolly Parton.
Nick VinZant 44:44
I would agree with that. Who are your who is on your list of the next big celebrities to go? Like, oh, they're going to be the next big one. I'm going to go with Dolly Parton. Morgan, free. Men, either Pacino or De Niro. I think they're both up there pretty far.
John Shull 45:12
I mean, I'm I'm still waiting the My, my, I actually have this conversation probably once every six months, which is really weird to say out loud, Dick Van Dyke is up there for me.
Nick VinZant 45:23
Yeah, I would, yeah, Pacino's 85 like, that could be, could be any minute. I mean, it could be any minute
John Shull 45:34
for all of us. But, like, I mean, I keep thinking Willie Nelson's gonna die at some point.
Nick VinZant 45:41
You know, I don't
John Shull 45:42
think any, any of those, any of those killable like hardcore rocker guys, you know, like Keith Richards. Oh, God, why? Why? Of course, I'm going blank. Eric Clapton, like any one of those wouldn't, wouldn't surprise me. Rita Moreno is another name that I think about
Nick VinZant 46:01
that's an interesting Rita Moreno, like, just thrown in there.
John Shull 46:07
I'm a big theater guy, man. Curtis Stanwick, Curtis type, do I do that is,
Nick VinZant 46:11
I don't know. I don't think he's a real person. I just made
John Shull 46:15
it up. I also wrote down bad bunny because I legitimately feel bad for him because he's being canceled to, you know, do the Super Bowl halftime show. It was a good politics aside, even though I don't think he's like, come out really one way or the other politically. But like, he's an American citizen. There have been non American citizens that have done the halftime show within the last five years, or at least during a Trump presidency.
Nick VinZant 46:40
Oh, yeah. Like, that's one of those where occasionally the real reason somebody is mad comes forward, and there's kind of just nothing besides, like, Oh, you just don't like people who are different color than you. Like, that's what that one ultimately comes down to. Because he's an American citizen, his music is very popular. Like, it's clearly just a business decision for the NFL, like I looked at, okay, so some people were like, hey, good country music. Should have country music, but his music is just way more popular. So like, what's your real problem besides the way that the guy looks?
John Shull 47:17
I mean, yeah, because he, for black of a better terminology, speaks with an accent and doesn't have overalls in a you know, straw in his hat.
Nick VinZant 47:26
You realize what you said when you said that, you said for black of a better act.
John Shull 47:32
No, for lack, for lack for black of a better Jesus. What are you trying to do here? Um,
Nick VinZant 47:39
I find it fascinating to see the things that people get really mad about.
John Shull 47:44
I just, I don't get it, um, just like this, I wrote down Alec Baldwin, and I had to research it before I got on here, because I wasn't sure why I wrote his name down, but apparently he, like, went on social media and spent 10 minutes telling people about how him and his brother were in a car accident, but they're okay, just that. They're okay. Nothing else, like i Does anyone even care about the Baldwin brothers anymore, especially Alec?
Nick VinZant 48:10
Wait a minute, which ones? Who's the famous one, famous one that was on like 30 rock, because there's one that's really famous, or the most famous, and then there's like six more that are decreasing levels fame.
John Shull 48:25
Well, Stephen Baldwin was in that, that bio dome movie. I think, I think Alec Baldwin might be the popular one. That's the problem. There's so many of them. I don't know which one is which anymore. Oh yeah. Like the Baldwin's the one that, like killed the director on set, remember, or allegedly, Oh, yeah.
Nick VinZant 48:44
I don't know who it was exactly, but he shot somebody. I think that it's like, pretty clear that, yeah, he shot him, whether he just the circumstances surrounding it. I don't think it's a debate if he shot them or not. It's like, just
John Shull 48:57
makes me think that, like, God, it would have been nice to be born a Baldwin and not have to do anything your entire life. Oh, Bruce Willis, by the way, Bruce later,
Nick VinZant 49:09
yeah, Bruce Willis is up there on the list of like, oh, that's coming and Tom be different when Tom Barringer. Michael G Fox,
John Shull 49:18
my I just saw Michael J Fox, yeah, he is looking, not looking the greatest.
Nick VinZant 49:22
Well, I mean, he's been sick for a long time, like, I feel like that's a little bit different when they've been sick for a long time, rather than somebody that, just like, all of a sudden goes the one guy, D'Angelo, died. We are fast. We are quickly approaching, we are quickly approaching the age where I Okay, we are quickly approaching the age the funeral age. We are quickly approaching the funeral age. I can think of at least 15 to 20 family members and a ton of celebrities. That I grew up with, so to speak, that are going to be kicking the bucket here in the next couple of years, like an entire generation of my family is about to die off.
John Shull 50:13
Yeah, I mean, it's true. It's it's kind of funny. I how you go from like the party stage to the marriage stage to the family stage to the death stage. Like, that's it, if that's if you choose to have, you know, foundational, you know, normal, civilized life. Of course, those are the four stages.
Nick VinZant 50:32
It's really the next big thing that happens in your life is the family death stage, because you get married. Well, you like, you go out in the real world, you get married, you buy a house. That's a big moment, you have children, and then your life kind of basically stops until either you retire or your family members start to die off.
John Shull 50:58
Well, then for our generation, and we're on the upper end of this, we won't be able to retire, probably, and if we do, we won't have any savings.
Nick VinZant 51:09
I was looking at a text message, would you say?
Speaker 1 51:11
Was there anything good in the text message? No,
Nick VinZant 51:13
but it was one of those, like, you got to look like, Ah, crap. I gotta look
John Shull 51:16
at this. Oh, well, it doesn't matter. Let's just move on. Oh, yes. D'Angelo died 51 years old of pancreatic
Nick VinZant 51:24
cancer. Oh, man, that's, that's pretty young. Did you feel jacked?
John Shull 51:28
Yeah, he was a MACT. He was like, if there was, who was the other R B guy from the late 90s, Brian McKnight. McKnight, like, they were like, sex symbols in that that's a whole genre of music, like, without a doubt.
Nick VinZant 51:43
I mean, I remember that video of d'angelo's, you do? I do? Because I remember people were like, look at this video, and it was just the dude with his shirt off, like it was just basically a stash stationary video of him, like it wasn't even him moving. He just stood there
John Shull 52:04
jacked. That was like the five year period of music where you could only seemingly have a first name, like, remember Joe Cisco? Yeah.
Nick VinZant 52:18
Well, the biggest stars are just Taylor Swift might be the biggest No, we did. We went from a one name basis to a two name basis. We went from like Sting, Bono Madonna, Taylor Swift, Billy Eilish. Now we've gone to two names.
John Shull 52:42
I want to know. I want to know if Taylor Swift is as popular around the world as she is in America.
Nick VinZant 52:52
No is the answer to that? No, I
John Shull 52:54
don't think so. And you know what F you? Travis Kelsey, I know you have a podcast. We should, you know, have a podcast off with him and his
Nick VinZant 53:02
brother. Yeah. Well, we'll try to get that set up.
John Shull 53:05
Well, that's your job. Leaf blowers. You you a fan, or are you not a fan of leaf blowers?
Nick VinZant 53:13
Why would I be against leaf blowers? Why would I ever be against technology like I have a leaf blower? It's great. I don't really have any problems with leaf blowers. I've never, like launched a campaign to be against them. What's your issue with leaf blowers?
John Shull 53:27
Well, apparently there's a Republican senator that is trying to ban them. I don't even, I can't even believe this is a real sentence, because this Senator believes that we as people should be able to take care of our leaves without the assistance of a machine.
Nick VinZant 53:47
Okay, then fine. Next time he needs any work done around his house, he needs to do it by hand. And don't use that technological shovel. Don't use that technological hammer. You need to do it with your hands. Like that's just such an idiotic thing to do that. Like, technology is bad in some way. We don't need these leaf blowers.
John Shull 54:07
Also, like, we're in a government shutdown, and this is what you're talking about.
Nick VinZant 54:14
This is the best idea this person has, is to campaign against leaf blowers. I just wonder who? But right? Somebody had to have gotten to him and been like Craig, you got to do something about these leaf blowers. Man, like, how many of his constituents complained to him about leaf blowers that he decided that this was the thing that he was going to do, and you got to be a man. You got to rake those leads with your own hands as if we don't use technology for everything is if technology isn't our greatest achievement as a species. All right, I'm pretty pissed off. Yeah, you're like, that's just a stupid thing.
John Shull 54:55
Speaking of pissed off things, let's we should talk a little bit about fan bases here.
Nick VinZant 54:59
It. Oh, okay, so I just went top five. Well, we'll see exactly what our top five is. It's probably gonna be a little bit of amalgamation, as usual, but our top five is top five worst sports cities. It's your number five.
John Shull 55:17
Okay, we need to go back to our house amalgamation, amalgamation.
Nick VinZant 55:21
What the hell does that even mean an amalgamation? It's when, yeah, a number of things. I don't know exactly how many things constitute an amalgamation, but it's when a number of things combined to form a new thing. It's like a transformer, except with words, okay, I've never heard the word amalgamation.
John Shull 55:39
I mean, if I have it's like only when I'm drinking milk, all right, number five,
John Shull 55:51
my number five, and this is definitely a homer pick, but being from Michigan, I had to put this on the list. So my number five for Worst Sports cities is Columbus, Ohio.
Nick VinZant 56:04
Why is that bad? They have a great football team in Ohio State.
John Shull 56:10
Yeah, fuck them. They cheat. They're cheaters. Well, all colleges are cheaters,
Nick VinZant 56:17
but yeah, just better. You're just better.
John Shull 56:19
They don't have, first off, you could literally combine Cincinnati and Columbus, and you could have just one sports town, but no, they had to split up. One has to be in another state. So you know what effort Columbus? You're my number five. You don't you have no other sports other than hockey, which no one goes to, soccer, that no one cares about in America and the Ohio State Buckeyes that you know are good once every 10 years,
Nick VinZant 56:47
yeah, but I would still make the argument that Columbus is the best sports city in all of Ohio.
John Shull 56:54
I mean, you got to say Cleveland.
Nick VinZant 56:57
But how is what's Cleveland good at losing.
John Shull 57:01
I mean, they won the NBA championships a couple years in a row, like a decade ago,
Nick VinZant 57:06
and I think, yeah, they won one, okay, with Lebron, and then they got rid of him.
Speaker 1 57:10
What's your number five? Orlando,
Nick VinZant 57:16
Orlando. But really, all of Florida, Florida, as a former Florida resident, Florida doesn't really care that much about sports, like nobody's really paying attention. I lived in Orlando. Nobody cared about the magic.
John Shull 57:31
So it's so I have, I have a Florida city little higher on the list, so I'll come back to Florida. Okay, okay, number four, my number four. And this is, once again, I just when, when I think sports, I don't think sports should be in this city, and it's Nashville.
Nick VinZant 57:49
Oh, that's a Nashville is a good one. I would actually put my number four, very similar. And that's Charlotte. Charlotte is awful at everything that they do.
John Shull 58:05
I mean, the Panthers have been terrible, but they weren't for a while. They went to a Super Bowl not too long ago, right?
Nick VinZant 58:12
But Charlotte is a city that's so bad at sports you forget it even has sports teams. Oh, yeah, the bobcats, that's a team. Yeah.
John Shull 58:23
So my number three going to Florida here is, I'm gonna put two on the list, but really it's just one team. So I'm gonna do all of Tampa and sunrise, Florida, which is the home of the Florida Panthers. Because it makes no sense. No sense, that Miami suburb has a professional hockey team that is freaking good as hell. By the way, I
Nick VinZant 58:49
have nothing to add to that good. But, no, I don't understand, but Arizona has a hockey team. This makes even less sense. Who, what state would you say makes less sense to have a hockey team, Arizona or Florida?
John Shull 59:07
I mean, I'd probably say Arizona, to be frank, be
Nick VinZant 59:09
honest. I kind of feel like Arizona is too my number three is Detroit. It's an embarrassment of a sports city. It's terrible. All the teams are terrible. They always choke. They always lose. You know that Detroit is it's just a matter of when they're going to lose, and they don't even get close enough to winning, where you could say, like, oh yeah, that's a good team. No, they're not. You don't even nobody's Detroit is like, the person who always talks big, and no matter how well they show up at the beginning, you're just like, you know you're going to lose, and they know they're going to lose, they could grow through the entire football season, 18 and Oh, beating teams by 50. And still, people would be like, Yeah, but we're not really that worried about Detroit. Okay, that's all I got. I got. That's all you got. I
John Shull 59:57
mean, I mean, it's not true, but it's fine.
Nick VinZant 59:59
Oh. Well, it is true. Everybody knows it, but you the
John Shull 1:00:03
fans are great, the teams. Yeah, we're friendly as hell here in Detroit, in the suburbs.
Nick VinZant 1:00:11
He finally admitted that you don't live in Detroit. I always like it when you accidentally admit that you're you're not a Detroit person, you're a poser. You live outside the city limits.
Speaker 1 1:00:21
I do. I do. That's true.
Nick VinZant 1:00:23
Suburban you're you're gentrified, you're old, you haven't done any weather yet. That's pretty good. Impressed the weather
John Shull 1:00:31
outside today. It's nice and No, all right, my number my number two is all of New York City.
Nick VinZant 1:00:40
My number two is just the Jets. I don't know exactly where the Jets play, but wherever they play, they bring down the whole state. They bring down the whole state. I think it's New Jersey, but
John Shull 1:00:53
Stadium in New Jersey, with the Giants,
Nick VinZant 1:00:56
whatever success other New York teams have, it's brought down by the Jets. It's like saying scoreboard in any argument, it just stops it completely.
John Shull 1:01:08
I mean, listen, they we can go listen, team by team, but I just, I cannot stand New York sports franchises. They get all the money, all the attention, and most of them aren't even
Nick VinZant 1:01:20
good. I agree to number one. Did you do your number two yet? Yeah, I was the Jets.
John Shull 1:01:27
Oh, the Jets. Gotcha. So my number one, I was, I wanted just to, just to bother you. I was gonna play buffalo.
Nick VinZant 1:01:35
I know you wanted to, but you can't. You can't put buffalo as the number one, because here's why. My reasoning is you can't put buffalo as number one. Is that maybe they have been cursed, but buffalo is a smaller city. I think it might be the second smallest NFL city, and so however, it's like the underdog. However far the underdog gets, it's still really good. That's why I don't think that you can make an argument for Buffalo.
John Shull 1:02:02
I was really just gonna say that. I think they're the only team that has gone to four straight championships in any sport and lost all four in a row.
Nick VinZant 1:02:13
But I don't understand that argument that somehow coming in second is worse than getting like 30th, like they're looked at in a bad way because they got to the Super Bowl four times and didn't win. But somehow, that's worse than not getting to the Super Bowl at all, which is fascinating to me.
John Shull 1:02:32
I mean, it's, it's thing about it's hard to explain. I understand what you're saying, yeah. But it's, it's not what you can't win one out of four, you know you could, and most of them, they lost every one of those in different ways. It wasn't like they were blown out every game, you know what I mean. So,
Nick VinZant 1:02:50
right? Well, they find a way to lose the Detroit Tigers saying, okay, find a way to lose team.
John Shull 1:02:57
Let's get this over. My number one is Boston.
Nick VinZant 1:03:01
Oh, why Boston? They win a lot. Why you can go Boston?
John Shull 1:03:05
I'm going to, I'm going to preface this, and I'm going to keep it brief and crisp. If you're, if you're from Boston, or you like Boston sports, plug your ears. Worst Sports City I've ever been to, rudest fans. And I have big Poppy left an impression on me that I will never be able to kick ever.
Nick VinZant 1:03:29
So go on, what happened? He snubbed you for an autograph.
John Shull 1:03:34
2013 and the Tigers were in the ALCS, one step away from the World Series. It was five to one, and for some reason, we decided to pitch to him. With bases loaded, he hit a grand slam. They came back to beat us that year, and that basically the next year started the downfall of the Detroit Tigers, until we went back to the playoffs a year ago. So a decade of destroyment because of David Ortiz.
Nick VinZant 1:04:02
So Detroit lost, and now you're mad at somebody else because Detroit lost, seems to be Hey, but my, my number one, my number one is Cleveland, just the browns in and of themselves. It's the same thing as the Jets. Just the Browns are such an embarrassment? No, I'm gonna change this. Actually, I thought about my number one is Atlanta. Has Atlanta ever won anything for a city of that size?
John Shull 1:04:35
I mean, no, actually, they're, they're most famous because weren't the Falcons up 28 degree Yeah, on the Patriots in a Super Bowl a little while ago and lost 32 to 28 or something. Yeah. I mean, in hindsight, in reality, you could put, I feel like you could put any West Coast team. Other than LA on the list.
Nick VinZant 1:05:04
I think, okay, only because I'm just gonna sound like a homer pick, necessarily, but only because I've lived in these places. Is that, like if you live in a city where there's something else to do, I'm not trying to knock on people's cities. I'm just saying that if you live in a city where there's a lot of other things to do specifically, kind of like, you can go to the beach, or you can go into the mountains, or you can go and do other stuff, sports is not as big of a thing. Like, it's just not I think sports is way bigger in certain Midwest cities where during the winter, you kind of really can't do anything
John Shull 1:05:40
that's fair. That's I mean, but I would argue, I mean around the world, in places that are hot, you know, or where people are outside more often, where they don't even have winter, per se, sports are just as big.
Nick VinZant 1:05:53
Yeah, I just think that they're not as big in warm weather, outdoorsy kind of states, because there's other stuff to do in the winter and in the summer.
John Shull 1:06:05
Yeah, you're not as big out in the warm weather, huh? So I had that on my
Nick VinZant 1:06:15
honorable mention. I didn't go for your honorable mention. Let's
John Shull 1:06:19
hear it. No. I mean, I West Coast cities, anything from Hawaii, Alaska, places like that, anything in the state of Florida, other than what I already mentioned. You know, just oh
Nick VinZant 1:06:33
yeah, the West Coast doesn't, isn't as big of a sports places the East Coast. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Really helps us out and let us know what you think are the worst sports cities. Nobody really well. I didn't want to get into this necessarily during this because it would have been a whole thing, but it's Detroit. It's Detroit. Detroit is the worst support city, and he knows it.