Sugar Dating is when an older, wealthy man provides for a young, beautiful woman in exchange for companionship and physical intimacy. But what is Sugar Dating really like? McKenna King has been Sugar Dating for nearly a decade. We talk Sugar Babies and Sugar Daddies, allowances and agreements, and why more people are turning to Sugar Dating. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Personality Traits.

McKenna King: 01:12

Pointless: 39:37

Top 5 Personality Traits: 56:47

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Interview with Sugar Baby McKenna King

Nick VinZant 0:00

Hey welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode sugar dating, and personality traits,

McKenna King 0:16

when I first got into sugar dating, there definitely was, I thought that, okay, sugar dating, there is this expectation where there has to be sex, you know, he's giving me something, I have to give something back in return, I started to be a lot more open, because I felt like I was living two lives. And I didn't want to have to hide certain aspects of my life, from the people that I cared about. And that's when it sunk in, I was like, he was married the whole time, I really knew nothing about him, I want

Nick VinZant 0:45

to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest is a sex worker, who has been doing sugar dating for nearly a decade. This is McKennitt King. So what is sugar dating,

McKenna King 1:14

it's usually a younger woman who is seeking a financial arrangement with typically an older gentleman, and somebody who's established in their career has, you know, some financial success, and they agree on an arrangement for a relationship. And as, as opposed to like a traditional relationship. It's, it typically centers around the the financial aspect, you know, like there is an agreement of a certain allowance, or, I mean, it doesn't always involve in allowance, there could just be like, shopping trips or gifts, or, you know, it's it's kind of a nuanced thing, because not all arrangements are alike, but there is usually a financial aspect to it.

Nick VinZant 2:10

So, you know, when we talk about an arrangement, right, like, is this a verbal agreement that kind of gets worked out before that it even starts? Or is this something that you kind of figure out throughout the relationship? Or do you go in, it's like, Nope, you're gonna give me this, this and this, and I'm going to do this.

McKenna King 2:28

I think that kind of depends on how you find your sugar daddy, or, or whoever you're establish this relationship with. Like, for me, personally, my first arrangement, I didn't even really realize it was an arrangement until I was in it. And it just, it just so happened, I was living with an older gentleman, he offered his home to me, under the condition that I looked after his dog. And at the time, I needed a place to live, I was like, fuck, I gotta get out of my sister's house. So like this, you know, this just kind of landed in my lap as an opportunity. And I didn't think of it in that sense as sugar dating, then. But now that I kind of look back on it and reflect on it. I'm like, Yeah, that's exactly what it was. It was an arrangement, he gave me a place to live. He, you know, paid all the utilities paid all the bills paid for all the food, I didn't have to worry about anything, all I had to worry about was taking his dog outside. So it was it was pretty convenient. And then there was the sexual aspect to it. Like that kind of followed along afterwards. So of course, it was it was consensual, like, there was a discussion around it. But it wasn't under the scope of it being an arrangement or sugar dating at that time. It just kind of fell into that. It, it kind of opened the door to starting to seek that out. And there are different, like sugar dating websites, you know, just like a dating website, except it's, it's specifically for that for finding an arrangement.

Nick VinZant 4:20

When we look at kind of the age differences that you've experienced, right? Like, are we talking? Five years? 10 years? 20 years, like 50 years, like what is the age range difference that you've generally dealt with?

McKenna King 4:33

I mean, I've I've had arrangements with people closer to my own age. I think the gap might have been maybe like, six, seven years, so he wasn't that much older than myself. And then I think maybe the the oldest guy I had been with was probably in his late 50s, early 60s. So there is like quite a bit of a There can be an age gap there. And it depends on what you're looking forward to. Because I'm, I feel like there isn't there is a certain demographic of men that don't necessarily want to have a really obvious, you know, when they're out in public like, age gap, right? Like they don't, they don't want that scrutiny from the public. Like, why is this old dude walking around with like a 20 year old college girl. So I think that's maybe that's kind of worked to my benefit because I'm in my 30s now and I've always been a little bit more mature for my age. So maybe I've kind of attracted to that older generation of sugar daddies. And that's it's worked for me. But I've, I've also been with guys who are, you know, late 30s, early 40s. So I think anybody who was younger than 30 is probably going to be a bit of a waste of time. And I, I don't mean that to be rude to certain men who are still like, creating that financial success for themselves. But if I see a profile on one of these dating sites, and the guy's you know, mid 20s, late 20s, I don't generally take it as seriously because I was barely financially established in my mid to late 20s. So you kind of gotta take that with a grain of salt. Like, unless this, this guy's like a trust fund kid, like, where are you getting this crazy amount of money? Where you can have this kind of financial relationship? Like, how are you affording it? And is it something that's gonna be sustainable? So, you know, it kind of, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time, I'm sure there's, there's plenty of guys out there who maybe they can't afford that. And they're, you know, in their 20s. But I also prefer finding somebody who I'm going to be able to relate to, and now that I'm over 30, I'm finding it harder to relate to like a younger generation than myself. So

Nick VinZant 7:16

for you, is it? I guess, what's the appeal of it for you? Is it to being taken care of aspect of it? Like, is it a financial kind of transaction for you? Or do you find yourself like, no, the financial aspect is a benefit. But I do like this kind of relationship.

McKenna King 7:35

I think there's definitely a few reasons that drew me to it. Originally. I when I first started sugar dating, I was I was in my early to mid 20s. And I was still in school, I was living alone, because I refuse to live with roommates. At that point, I was like, John with that. And it was a means of supplementing my income and helping support myself like, it's nearly impossible as a single adult to live alone, and have like a comfortable place to live like the housing crisis, the afflict cost of living, it's all it's insane. So it seems like a good way. And a fun way of, you know, being able to just afford life in general. Like, I have no shame to anybody else, but I wasn't focused on gifts or luxury items or trips or travel or, you know, some of those benefits came along with it. But my goal was just you know, how can I make my life a little bit easier? How can I get through school with less stress not have to be working three jobs. So everybody has their own reasons I think for for seeking out a sugar daddy or or getting into that lifestyle. And I think what it comes down to typically is you just you want a better life for yourself.

Nick VinZant 9:08

I guess the ultimate kind of question right to just get right to it. Is it selling your soul in a way? Golf? No. That's I know that's the kind of the most dramatic way of possibly phrasing it. But I'll use this works. I can't think of another one like is it cheapening the experience degraded, degraded, dirty, any of those kinds of words?

McKenna King 9:31

I don't think it cheapens anything. I don't feel that it's degrading or I don't know how else to put it. I honestly believe that. It in every relationship there's going to be some type of transaction whether it is a very naturally formed relationship, you know, somebody that you met through friends or there's always going to be a good give and take, right. And I think the world has also kind of shifted to, you know, a lot of people don't want a traditional relationship, they, it's difficult to date and form relationships these days as well. And I think if you're a very busy person, that also impacts your ability to have the capacity to have relationships, you know, you can only give so much of yourself. So when you have the opportunity to have fun, be with somebody who you enjoy spending time with. Because I think these these relationships are still formed pretty naturally, you find somebody that you have a genuine connection with. So it's not just oh, my God, she's really hot. I mean, it could be but I think typically, these relationships are formed a little more naturally. And it's not just about having sex, or getting sex and paying for it, it's, you know, you find somebody that you want to have a good connection with. And you know, that you have the means to support that or support a certain lifestyle. So it's just, it's easier than maybe trying like regular online dating, and then going through months of, you know, sifting through profiles and, and autumn, maybe, you know, like, what if she shows up doesn't look like her pictures, and like that, that can still happen here, in a sense, but you both are looking for a very similar goal. And you're, I think, very more so upfront about it, about your lives, and what you're looking to attain out of this type of relationships. So instead of having to just find that needle in a haystack, it might be a little bit easier to try sugar dating, instead, you know, it might be a little more conducive to the lifestyle that you currently have,

Nick VinZant 11:59

it seems a little bit like a business transaction.

McKenna King 12:03

I guess I don't, I don't think you're reading into it in the wrong way. Because anytime we bring up like a transaction, then it sounds like it sounds like business, right? And the way I view sugar dating, I still see it under the umbrella of sex work in general. So I find it's a very, it's a more loosely brought together, arrangement or transaction, like, as opposed to where if you're like professional companion, you're like, straight up here. The rules, here is exactly what you're paying for my time, you're like, these are the boundaries of this transaction or this relationship. Whereas in sugar dating, it can be a little more loosely defined, there is more of a negotiation there. I know, most, most other sex workers. They're like, there's no negotiation, like, here's how it's going to be. But in sugar dating, I find it's more about finding what's going to work for both people. And there's a lot more discussion to it, there's a lot more there's a lot more give and take, you know, it's not. It's also not defined by like how much time you're setting aside to be with this person. And I think a lot of people will get upset because there's there's so much stigma that's attached to sex work, that they feel less stigmatized by going into sugar dating, because they're like, well, not a sex worker. But it's just wrapped up a little more nicely and presented to the public. As you know, here's, it's just, you know, it's dating. What's wrong with that, right? It's not, might be a little less conventional type of dating. But, uh, look, this nice old man just wants to take care of this pretty young girl and give her a better life. Right? It's more acceptable, it's more mainstream. And I think there's a lot less stigma attached to it

Nick VinZant 14:05

in the relationships that you've had. Was sex a requirement of it? Was that something that just naturally happened?

McKenna King 14:13

Um, I don't think I've ever seen a sex as a requirement, but it is typically involved in that kind of relationship. But like I said earlier, it depends on what both people are looking for what both people are comfortable with. Some people have sugar dating relationships that are purely virtual, like it's just online. There's, you know, maybe there's sexting but there's there's no actual physical contact, but for myself personally, anytime I meet a new guy who you know is like a prospective sugar daddy, then I let them know straight away like sex is off the table for the first couple of dates because I want to know Oh, if this person is a person is somebody that I'm going to have a good connection with? If it's going to be something that's ongoing. And I feel like if, if they want to, you know, test the goods, the first date, then it's just going to be right off the bat, like, No, this isn't gonna work for me. Because I want to build something that is going to be a little longer not commitment, but a longer lasting relationship for whatever time that that does last. But, you know, I've had I've had arrangements that lasted six months, I've had a couple years. It all depends, right? But do you feel a pressure? I can't say that there is now but maybe when I first got into sugar dating, there definitely was. But I think that's also because I approached it was a lot of naivety, like there's no I didn't have any knowledge, I didn't have an idea of what my own personal boundaries were, I thought that, okay, sugar dating, there is this expectation where there has to be sex, you know, he's giving me something, I have to give something back in return. And I didn't see my own value, as you know, just companionship, just being myself and seeing that another person can respect that, that time and that connection that we can build and having fun together going, you know, out for dinner, having activities traveling, I did pretty much boil it down to just a sexual thing, like this is that kind of transaction. But I think as you get a little older, and you understand a little bit more about what it can be, then no, it isn't, you don't feel as pressured. Because you're not also putting yourself in that situation where, you know, like, you've, you've set your own boundaries. And I think you can tell right off the bat to the type of people who they are looking for the really young and naive, maybe early college student, but like, barely legal, like, there. Unfortunately, that is part of it, too, you can tell there are older men that are specifically looking for young girls, who are going to be naive or easily manipulated or taken advantage of, unfortunately, but I think that happens everywhere in the world these days. So

Nick VinZant 17:34

I guess that would be the kind of concern necessarily, right, if you want to use that word is that somebody who is in a position of financial power is taking advantage of somebody that is not? Like, if you put a percentage on it? What percentage of sugar dating relationships would you think are more of a pine power dynamic kind of relationship than a mutual kind of transaction?

McKenna King 18:01

I'd say for the, for the women who are very, very young, like just going into college. I, I would hope that, you know, less of those arrangements are they're being you know, they're not being taken advantage of. But I think it's still it happens. It's, I don't know if I could put a number on it, to be honest, but I know it still happens. Because when I was much younger, there definitely were situations where I felt like okay, this, this guy really is trying to take advantage. You know, the expectations were up here for what they wanted. And the the sugar or the arrangement was being withheld. You know, like, they're gonna give you an allowance later on, but it never comes. So it's definitely a situation that happens, where, you know, younger women are entering into these arrangements thinking that right off the bat, they're going to be given something in return. And they're waiting and waiting and they're getting a lot of false promises. And a lot of people call that carrot dangling. You know, this, this guy is like, Hey, I got I got this, you know, I'm gonna provide something to you, but I'll just, you know, I'm busy. I'm on a call right now. I'll get you later.

Nick VinZant 19:27

For the men who are involved for the generally the person who has been financially providing, are they doing it? Because they like doing that, like what is the general attraction to it for them.

McKenna King 19:39

I would like to think like maybe altruistically that these guys are just they they want to help uplift somebody else's life. They like that aspect of taking care of another person or just setting up some more financial security for somebody who is just becoming established. in their career or going through college, or, you know, they can remember being at that point in their life remembering how much of a struggle it was. So maybe they get something out of it, you know, maybe it's fulfilling to them to know like, Yeah, I'm doing something that helps them genuinely. But I think there's just so many different reasons that that brings them into it. It's not always it's not always about everything that they can get out of it. There are some genuine people out there that they see it as, yeah, this is it's good for me, but it's also good for them.

Nick VinZant 20:33

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure. How is this different from financial domination? Hmm,

McKenna King 20:42

um, that's a good one. I guess, primarily, it would depend on the arrangement. If if you are a domme, then you could find an a sugar dating arrangement where you do have a submissive and then it could be just about the like fin Dom, like financial domination. I think it's, it's, the people who are looking for fandom are seeking that out specifically. So the people who are typically drawn to sugar dating, it's, I mean, they're looking for their own type of arrangement, or, you know, you can't put a very specific label on on sugar dating, because there are so many different types of arrangements that you can, can have. But um, recently, I did, I met somebody on one of those sugar dating sites. And he was looking to be a submissive, not necessarily financial, submissive, but just a submissive in general. And he's like, he was interested in female lead relationships. So you know, the woman's calling all the shots, he is basically the beta in the relationship, you know, she takes whatever he's making and makes all the financial decisions. And, you know, he just, he's there to support the lifestyle that she wants. And for me that dynamic, I mean, I've entertained it, but I'm not super dominant. So I could play that role. I could put that roll on if I wanted to, but for me, it was just, it feels like more like work. So

Nick VinZant 22:29

what is it an allowance and what is the most and least allowance you've ever had or heard of,

McKenna King 22:34

um, so an allowance, that is basically just the financial compensation that that you're seeking out of an arrangement. Some people like to consider an allowance, anytime there's financial compensation, so it could be like her date. This is what the sugar daddies giving you for each time that you meet some arrangements, it'll be like a monthly allowance, or a weekly allowance, or whatever, you know, it can, it can just, it's whatever the compensation may be. Um, when I first started sugar dating, and was pretty naive and new to it. I think the lowest amount I was asking for a date was like $200. And I guess I can't really put a huge note, okay, if I put a number on, like the monthly allowance that I received, like at the high end, it would probably be about seven grand. Yes. But it was very, it was a lot more flexible. Also, I feel like I had my own credit card with my name on it that he provided me with so which I was I was pretty responsible with like, I didn't go any crazy shopping trips. Maybe in hindsight, I should have like, but uh, yeah, it was it was it was very flexible in terms of the financial amount that was provided. But yeah, that was an I know, there are other arrangements where like, their allowance might be 10 grand a month, 20 grand a month.

Nick VinZant 24:15

How do these relationships usually end? I think

McKenna King 24:19

people's life lifestyles just change, you know, they're my, my last arrangement ended because we almost got married. But in order for that to work, I would have had to emigrate to a different country. And I got cold feet. And there were already some, some problems within the relationship. So I know that's a very unique situation, but people's lives change. People grow apart. I feel like oftentimes it's maybe the sugar baby who ends up ending things because As maybe they're done school, you know, they don't need that kind of financial support anymore. And maybe they just want a more traditional relationship, they want to be able to have a partner that they can actually introduce to their family, you know, without any judgment or stigma, I guess

Nick VinZant 25:18

that would be the thing, right? Like in the relationships that you've had, like, have you been introduced to the family?

McKenna King 25:23

So I mean, this is kind of funny, because I've jokingly called myself a failed sugar baby in the past. Because I've had, I've had three separate arrangements that shifted into more of a traditional relationship. And so those individuals, like they met my family, they I was in more involved in their life, you know, we didn't have to be discreet in public or discreet between our own like family and friend groups. And I could go to a work events with one I, you know, it I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with the fact that if it is still an arrangement, then seeing if, if both parties are comfortable being more open about it and sharing more of their lives with each other, that's fine. It depends on the people, right? If they're not worried about facing any, any sort of judgment from other people, either.

Nick VinZant 26:27

How have you? How have kind of people close to you, how have they generally reacted to it?

McKenna King 26:31

Um, I mean, when, when I first started, I didn't tell anybody, I wasn't really in the, the mindset of like, being open about that aspect of my life. And I was worried that I would face some judgment from others, or like, weird looks on the street, or, you know, disappointing my parents or something like that, you know. But as I got a little bit older, and then as I also got into sex work, like professionally, I started to be a lot more open, because I felt like I was living two lives, and I didn't want to have to hide certain aspects of my life, from the people that I cared about. And it wasn't an easy conversation. I don't think it's ever going to be an easy conversation, because you're, you're coming from a place where there is all of these societal expectations and perceptions and stigma and judgment. So yeah, I, I just decided to live a little bit more openly, because that's what worked for me.

Nick VinZant 27:47

This may be getting like into the crossing the line into kind of territory, that would be the thing, right, like, because I'm a father. And I don't know, I don't know how I would react if like, Who's Coming to Dinner? You. Okay, what? I would have, I would have questions. I guess, do you felt like you experienced that kind of thing.

McKenna King 28:10

It was a little strange. With my, my last arrangement, like and, and I consider this my last one because it was the last longterm one. But this was the guy who lived in the US who I was, I was dating for a while. And it turned into more of a serious relationship. So he did meet my family, he did. You know, like, because we were turned into that traditional relationship, he wanted to meet my family, and I wanted them to know, like, Okay, this is who I'm with. And I wanted to be honest about like, how we met and how it started. And so it was definitely a tricky conversation at first, he definitely understood where I was coming from, and the motivations that I had that led me to this point. Because we were always a very poor family, you know, he provided the best he could for for all of us kids, but I think he understood that coming from there and then going into either sugar dating or sex work, it had opened up doors for me and opportunities for me that he was never able to do. So his primary concern was, Are you safe? And are you being treated well, and you know, so long as those two things are happening and you're happy and you're consenting and you're doing something that you're okay with, then I'm okay with

Nick VinZant 29:44

this one just says main or side and so I guess what they mean by that is like, in these kinds of relationships is is is are you generally kind of like no, this is the only person that they have, or do they usually have like multiple people?

McKenna King 29:58

It depends on the person I've been in arrangements where I knew that they were married, or they had a long term relationship already. And then I've also been in arrangements where I was under the belief that I was the only sugar baby. Or the only other person like that, you know, they're having a relationship with and that sense, but um, I, honestly, it's it's just kind of like dating in the real world, you know, you you don't always know if this other person is seeing other people.

Nick VinZant 30:36

Are these kinds of relationship? Where do you think this kind of stance is becoming more popular, less popular?

McKenna King 30:42

I don't know, if it's becoming more popular. I think it's becoming more discussed. It's because it's in the media. And because we have access to so much online and there's all these, you know, different websites that can connect people for specifically sugar dating, that maybe it has become a little more popularized. But I think also, society is shifting a little bit where we're more, a little more accepting of different types of relationships that might seem untraditional,

Nick VinZant 31:18

you think you'll keep doing?

McKenna King 31:21

Um, while it works for me, I guess I find that as opposed to, like professional companionship. So the majority of what I do right now, as a sex worker, sugar dating has become a little more time consuming and a little more complicated to find the right type of arrangement. I've still I've met, you know, I've had a few coffee dates with people, I just haven't found the right like fit. You know, I, if I'm looking for a sugar dating relationship, then I want it to not feel like work as opposed to the way sex work can feel like work. What

Nick VinZant 32:05

advice would you give to somebody who's thinking about doing this?

McKenna King 32:09

Um, I think the best piece of advice I can give to anybody who is thinking about sugar dating is just know, know, your worth. Know, your boundaries. And I think that's the hardest thing for anybody to learn in any aspect of life is just what you want for yourself and the boundaries you want to set for yourself. And don't let anybody take advantage of you. I know that my that's probably a shithead by advice, because I had to learn the hard way. There's no guidebook to being a sugar baby, try to try to find some valuable information from people who have been involved in the lifestyle, but just know know what you want for yourself and what's gonna work best for you. And, and yeah, that's about it.

Nick VinZant 33:05

So what would you say like kind of the what is the life, like, because what I'm imagining it as being is like, alright, we'll go into dinner, go into a nice dinner, we're gonna go to show we're gonna go on trips. And then at the end of the night, we're gonna have sex,

McKenna King 33:21

it can be, that's the, that's the fun part of it. Because it really can be whatever you make it and whatever you want out of it. If you find a really good relationship with a guy who likes to travel, who loves fine dining, who, you know, enjoys all of these experiences and wants to take you along for that, then you can find that but if you're a little more conservative like me, I'm I'm more focused on building financial security, saving money. I don't really care about luxury items. If somebody gifts me, like a luxury bag, I'm probably going to sell it and put that in my TFSA or RRSPs. So it for me that experience has been a little bit different because it's it's more about just creating a sustainable life for myself. Travel has been part of it. When I was dating the guy in Chicago, we, we went to while I'd go back and forth to Chicago every month from Ottawa, so I'd stay with him for about a week. And then I'd go back home and then I go back and did that monthly. But we you know, travel to other places. San Diego was fun got to go to San Diego Zoo. Still haven't been to Europe. So if there are any sugar daddies that want to take me to Europe, I mean, shameless plug right here. But yeah, that that kind of those benefits can be part of it. It's really it's, you make what you want out of it, and hopefully, you have the arrangement But you want but it's it can also be like a normal relationship to where it takes takes a bit of work, you know, and it takes a bit of coordination and, and finding the right person. So

Nick VinZant 35:12

what are the dating sites? Like? Because what I'm imagining is like they put their income on there or something.

McKenna King 35:18

Some of them need to do some, I think they're allowed to, like, hide it if they don't want to display it. But I find that kind of annoying.

Nick VinZant 35:27

Do you verify like, oh, wait, this guy says he's worth 10 million, but I need to see some tax returns.

McKenna King 35:33

See, that is? God that that opens a whole other little can of worms if we have time. But there's, it's very hard to verify these people, because most of the profiles are just like your regular your dating site, they might have a username, but you can't just look this person up on Google and be like, oh, yeah, he is the CEO of whatever. And whatever. You know, you're, I think this is also part of what makes sugar dating a little more risky. Because you're just going off of the information they've decided to share with you. So, for example, I started seeing somebody, it evolved into a traditional relationship, but from the get go, I met him under a certain name. And I thought I knew who he was as a person, I introduced him to my family as this is so and so. And four years later, down the road, thanks to Facebook, by the way, women have these these groups about like, Are we dating the same guy, for whatever reason I was on this group, and I saw a photo come up, and it's him standing next to another lady. And, but a different name, a completely different name. And that's when it sunk in. I was like, he was married the whole time, I really knew nothing about him. He had this whole other life that I knew nothing about. And how was I supposed to verify that, like, there were some red flags early on that that came up. And certain things kind of clued in. And I think that's really, because there was no trust and no honesty in that relationship. That's why that relationship started to unravel. But I had no idea who he was until after the fact. And called them out on it, which felt really good. But

Nick VinZant 37:35

like that, can that can happen in any relationship? Right?

McKenna King 37:39

Like, yeah, we catfishes. Now, we, you know, you never really know someone completely. But I think this is this is what I mean by sugar dating can be a little more risky than as opposed to sex work, because, well, I think it's all under the same umbrella as sex work. But compared to being a professional companion, you're doing screening on all your clients, typically. So usually, they have to verify, you know, either with photo ID references, like this is who I am. To just allow them into your space to for allow them to come see you. And with sugar dating, there's not really that same aspect to it, at least not the experience that I've had, where, you know, people are verifying who they're actually meeting. And I think this is also how it allows more men who are trying to take advantage or, you know, maybe they didn't have screening for a companion. They're like, Okay, well, I can just go find a really naive 20 year old sugar baby and pay her phone bill and then I get what I want.

Nick VinZant 38:52

That's pretty much all the questions that we got, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, wants to learn more, that kind of stuff. What should they do?

McKenna King 38:59

I think the easiest way is following me on Twitter, my main Twitter accounts your McKenna. You can find me and my website at only mckenna.com. And, um, my Tiktok, also only McKenna.

Nick VinZant 39:18

I want to thank McKenna so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Tik Tok, Instagram and YouTube. And the YouTube version of this interview will be live on November 2 at 4:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Is there anything you wouldn't do for money?

John Shull 39:45

I already know that. Well,

Nick VinZant 39:47

I think that I wouldn't cross over any sexual lines. Like I'm a heterosexual man. I don't think that I would cross over into the other realm. Even for a lot of money. I don't think that I would do that.

John Shull 39:59

It's cool. If that's how you roll, don't take this the wrong way. But yeah, I don't. I don't think I would cross any lines either. What if

Nick VinZant 40:06

it was $10 billion, though like, man? If but that's the thing, though runs to try. I think it's easy to say that you would not. But if it was put in front of you, you got 10 billion cash sitting right there. I'm pretty sure I would do a lot of stuff. I wouldn't have thought that I would do.

John Shull 40:23

Yeah, I mean, I guess if someone is, if it's a reality, I mean, that's probably going to change most people's minds.

Nick VinZant 40:31

What do you still consider to be a lot of money?

John Shull 40:34

I mean, I'm probably about 500 grand.

Nick VinZant 40:38

Oh, I was gonna say like, $10, I still considered $10 to be a pretty good amount of money.

John Shull 40:45

I mean, I don't know. I think if you have, if you have any cash on you at all, I think that's a valid question. Do people even still carry cash?

Nick VinZant 40:52

I do. I have some cash. But it's more of like a coincidental thing that I have some cash. I don't purposely do it.

John Shull 41:01

I usually take out money every paycheck Friday just to have it. You know, case, I'm in a restaurant and I just want to tip with cash or, you know, the vending machine at work, you gotta get those Butterfingers you take money

Nick VinZant 41:13

out of your paycheck in cash. Like, how much money out of your paycheck in cash?

John Shull 41:20

It varies, but between 50 and $100 Oh, okay.

Nick VinZant 41:24

I thought you were gonna say something ridiculous. Like you took out 1000 Or you took out five bucks. It's like, what's the point? And that's way too much. That's a reasonable amount. Okay,

John Shull 41:35

I got I got bills to pay, man, I can't be taken out a lot of money.

Nick VinZant 41:39

Um, another question that I wanted to ask you is would you eat food out of your own trash?

John Shull 41:45

Depends where it is in the trash and how long it's been in there. If it's on the top, like, I just threw it away, you know, and I want to go back and just finish it off. Okay. If it's something like say, you know, right now I'm talking to you and I go, man, I I want to go get the rest of that, you know, egg sandwich from this morning out of the trash. That's not happening.

Nick VinZant 42:07

No, I could wait as much as a minute and still eat food out of my own trash.

John Shull 42:13

How long? Say a piece of food or something that's on the floor. How long is a suitable time for you to pick it up and eat it still?

Nick VinZant 42:22

If it's on the floor at my house? Oh, like an hour. I would honestly have food just fell on the floor at my own house. before it went rotten. Like if I drop a chip on my floor at 1pm and I come back at 7pm and it's still there. I'm probably going to eat it. I don't really have a time limit for any food that is non perishable. On my own floor. If we're talking about like outside 1520 seconds. Okay, all right. I don't have a problem with it. How like how quickly would you eat it?

John Shull 43:01

I mean, I'll eat it anywhere. Really restaurant grocery store. The only place that I would that I actually get I don't want to say the creepy GPS but the only place where I'm like, Man, I'm not I don't want to touch this floor is a public restroom bath like bathroom floor.

Nick VinZant 43:17

But she will go bare cheeks in there, which we've discussed before. I

John Shull 43:20

will. I will go bare cheeks all day long in there. It's disgusting. Okay. All right. Let's give some shout outs here. We'll start with Regan Shattuck. Julie Amber, two first names. Andres Mendoza. Khalil Harb, Ariel Thomas, Gabe, Christian, Rebecca Roboto. Say that four times fast. Michael Lindsey Brady Clark, and a Makina validez

Nick VinZant 43:54

very It's amazing for people who only listen to this show. It's amazing to watch John. It's like it's just amazing. The level of focus.

John Shull 44:04

I'm in it I'm, you know, I'm in it. I gotta make sure I don't screw things up. Because you know, y'all out there who comment on our social media you're kind of ruthless. So I gotta I gotta make sure I get this right.

Nick VinZant 44:15

As it should be. I think that there's needs to be more ruthlessness in the world, right? People are to us to get away with their own crap too much.

John Shull 44:23

Let's get your thoughts. Get your opinions on a couple of things here. One out of all of these 90s trends, clothing trends that apparently are researching which one to you? Is the one that you'd want to keep around? graphic tees, flannel shirts, or baggy jeans.

Nick VinZant 44:48

I don't mind all of those unlimited qualities to be honest with you. But a graphic shirt is what it's just got a design on it.

John Shull 44:55

No, it's like, you know, it's the like the big You like the big picture takes up most of the shirt? It's you know, it's just it's a graphics

Nick VinZant 45:05

went away

John Shull 45:08

I mean, I think so.

Nick VinZant 45:10

I don't even know anything about style, like baggy pants like comfortable clothing like comfortable baggy or just giant baggy and ridiculous, like jinko level.

John Shull 45:20

Oh man, I you know I used to have a pair two Jenko jeans. My mother who bought them for me i I'll never forget this as I'm walking out of the house with my eyeliner on. And my dyed hair

Nick VinZant 45:31

really have Did you really have eyeliner and dyed hair?

John Shull 45:35

I mean, yes, on the eyeliner, the hair was a hairspray dye. I don't know if you remember that. But you can literally buy hair dye but like in an aerosol can. So you would just spray it. And it would change. You know, obviously people bought it for the different colors. But you know, I will get black so I could have jet black hair because I brown hair for those of you that that have never seen a video of us. So yeah, so I would spray it in the morning before school, put my eyeliner on, put on my Powerman 5000 t shirt, my vans and my Jenko jeans and head off to sixth grade.

Nick VinZant 46:11

In sixth grade. You were wearing eyeliner, I feel like that's aggressive.

John Shull 46:15

Well, I mean, you know, I was a sixth grader in the late night. Well, mid to late 90s. And that's when you know, that's Marilyn Manson's the Powerman 5000s. The you know, lip biscuits core and all that, you know, it's it's all good.

Nick VinZant 46:31

Okay, do you regret that? Or were you like, alright, I did that. How do you feel about like lifestyle choices where you're embarrassed later?

John Shull 46:39

Well, I always seem to dabble in things. fashion wise, and it never turns out well for me, because for one, my body type is not suitable for anything fashionable. I'm just I'm way too big of a man. You know, I mean, the last one, right was skinny jeans. Yeah, a decade ago. And I first off, I don't know how I got into them. Because even you know, 4050 pounds skinnier than or whatever I was. Skinny jeans are not made for a man that's you know, 511 240 pounds. They're just not.

Nick VinZant 47:14

I've never been like a trendy person in style. I've always generally had the same kind of like just boring clothing. I just wear like clothes.

John Shull 47:25

I mean, I've I will like I said, I've always kind of dipped my toes in. When Jordans came out. Or when they got really mega popular in the mid 90s. I had a couple of pair of those which, you know, were insanely expensive. Griffeys you know, for all of you 90s kids out there Griffeys were big. You know, I? This is embarrassing, but probably out of everything I've ever tried to be fashionable about the FUBU and rock aware days were probably my my worst decisions just because yeah, did you put a big guy in a giant puffy jacket? And these big boots, I just it didn't look natural. So

Nick VinZant 48:08

why did you try all these travel trends? Are they all these different trends out? Like were you trying to find yourself? Or were you trying to fit in?

John Shull 48:16

Probably trying to fit in, but you know, kind of it kind of almost plays along, oddly enough to what you asked at the beginning of the segment. And like, what would I do for a million dollars? Well, I didn't get paid to do this. But I'm always up to try things like I'm always I've always been up to be a good sport, in see things and that's how I kind of view all these moments of my life.

Nick VinZant 48:38

I would agree with everything but the eyeliner. Like that's taken it a step too far.

John Shull 48:43

Anyways, my next question is, have you ever been asleep? Walker?

Nick VinZant 48:48

No, I've never slept walk have you?

John Shull 48:51

I have a few times in my life more when I was a young younger person, but I have done it, you know, as an adult. But the question is pretty simple. It just could. And I've never been with anybody or lived with anyone that has been but I was reading an article the other day not sure if it's true or not. But I'm pretty sure the most terrifying thing would be to wake up to a some kind of noise coming from somewhere in your house. You go to investigate that and someone's just standing there with a blank stare on their faces opening the you know the door or just banging your pan up and down. And it's it's terrifying. So I want to know, if you've ever been in that situation, and if you were in that situation, theoretically, what would you do? Would you try to snap them out of it? Would you just tackle that person to the ground because they're possessed by a demon? What would you

Nick VinZant 49:44

Oh, I mean, probably something if they're in my house, like I'm probably gonna do something and start with violence. I mean, that's just the way that it is right? Like, I'm not going to be sitting there wasting around time, like figuring out like, Oh no, this person just happens to be slow. Keep walking, like No, it's good to start the other way. My wife had an experience. Well, I guess we both had an experience. She was college, seven or eight months pregnant with our second child. And there was a woman that was on some kind of something that had like wandered into the backyard. And she was sitting there, but my wife was doing dishes at the sink, which looked out into the backyard. And this woman's face just pops up directly in front of her in the backyard. Oh, and so she yells, I don't know what's going on. But I run outside and on the way I grab a knife, like, here we go, it's time to go. So I mean, that's not gonna like, you got to do what you got to do. I'm not going to be asking a lot of questions. I don't think.

John Shull 50:50

I mean, I feel like I know the answer to this, but I presume you did not have to use the knife.

Nick VinZant 50:55

I didn't I once I got out there. And I figured out like, oh, this woman is clearly like off her mind. Just got her out of there. It's like you're in the wrong place. You gotta go now. And she left. But

John Shull 51:09

well, and now now that we're officially in November. I have to ask this question. I feel like it's an annual question until I get a good answer out of you. Falling back, springing forward daylight savings time. Is it a waste of time? Do you appreciate it? Did you even know that come this Saturday, we are supposed to fall back an hour.

Nick VinZant 51:29

I knew that because I knew it's always around Halloween. That's the only reason that I know that. Otherwise, I don't care. I don't understand why we do it. It's one of those things that we should probably just stop doing. But we're not going to stop doing it instead. We'll just continue on perpetuity.

John Shull 51:47

All right, well, do you know what time it is?

Nick VinZant 51:50

Is that a good segue into your candle them on? Watch bumper to bumper to bumper to bumper to bumper? Okay, wait hold on. Sometimes they can do it sometimes I can't hold on

it's time candle of the month the outlaw candle connoisseur brides again?

John Shull 52:16

Well, Nick,

Nick VinZant 52:18

here we say whale or Well,

John Shull 52:20

I said a whale Nick. Here we are.

Nick VinZant 52:25

I'm trash. Tons of things are just terrible.

John Shull 52:27

I'm trying to be Alright, anyways. Um, so here we go. Head over, you can either go to Amazon, pick this candle up, you can head over to the P F Candle Company, our candle store. Kind of an interesting backstory in this candle. So I didn't realize this. This was given given to us as a wedding gift. Seven years ago. Just found it this summer, just happened to be moving some stuff into my newly furnished basement and found this candle asked my wife and she said got it from the wedding. It was a wedding gift from somebody lit it up maybe two weeks ago. And I burned it all the way through. That's how fantastic it was. So by PF Candle Company, it's called the number 28. Black fig candle. And it is it is delicious. It is soothing. It is I don't know how to accurately describe it other than you light it, it's seven ounces. So not too big, but you get a very woody. Like it starts kind of woody like you're out in the forest. Like you're taking a nice walk in crisp weather. And then it finishes strong with that fig. Essence and it's just very awesome. It is kind of pricey. It's about it's gonna read seven ounces, which is not a lot. I mean, you're gonna get probably 12 to 20 hours runtime on that. It's going to cost you about 25 bucks, but it is worth it. And it's a good candle. And yeah, it's I wanted something that's that kind of signifies fall, and I did not expect this candle to do that at all. So I was very pleasantly surprised.

Nick VinZant 54:16

I don't even know like fig has a certain people like the smell and feel of figs

John Shull 54:26

I mean, I have no idea maybe they do. Maybe they don't. I like figs myself. But this isn't. This isn't like the you're not gonna get a sweet, savory, like feeling from this candle. It's almost gonna be like you're walking in the woods on a crisp, cold autumn day. And then as it's wrapping up is when you're going to get more of like the inside in front of the fire. Maybe you got a little wall refresher in and you get a little bit of that sweetness and then it burns out and you're like I need like, what just happened? 15 hours went by so fast.

Nick VinZant 55:05

Do you have a candle burning in your house? In every room in your house?

John Shull 55:12

I mean, pretty close. I mean, not to actually go through it. But I mean, every bathroom. The kitchen, the dining room, the living room. All three bedrooms, the basement. Yeah, so I mean, pretty close.

Nick VinZant 55:24

At the same time. Not always.

John Shull 55:27

No, not not all at the same time. But I mean, on any given Sunday, right? Great movie, by the way, on any given day, maybe three to five at at the same time.

Nick VinZant 55:39

So can you ever smell then if something is like wrong in the house? Are you just covering up odors all the time? Like the floorboards could be rotting? There could be a dead rat under that, but you've got 18 candles burning? Do you even know?

John Shull 55:51

It's it's become something now to where? Oh, I? Well, not now. It's, I mean, for the last five, six years, I enjoy going from room to room and having the different aromas.

Nick VinZant 56:09

Just walking around? Yeah, ah,

John Shull 56:13

it's, it's, you know, it's great. And, you know, we have an insert fireplace. And for any of you out there that may have one or just a fireplace in general in your home. I didn't realize this, but they actually sell. Like, they sell wood that can be scented. I didn't know that. But they offer for inserts, they have like plugins that you can plug into your insert, and you can turn on the blower and it will blow out like you know, you know, like firewood or something.

Nick VinZant 56:46

Okay, so our top five is top five best traits for people to have.

John Shull 56:51

Now I have to ask you is are when you say traits? You mean like intellectual things?

Nick VinZant 56:58

Rationality? personality characteristics? Yes. Not like five personality characteristics?

John Shull 57:04

Not like nice eyes or tight but or something but like personality? And

Nick VinZant 57:08

then how about after you give your trait? Give yourself a rating on a scale of one to 10 where you think you personally fit in that?

John Shull 57:18

Okay, all right. Well, this is gonna be this should be interesting. So my number five. For traits. I have self awareness as my number five.

Nick VinZant 57:27

Oh, that's a good one. And self awareness is a good one. Yeah, I will

John Shull 57:31

give myself up up until maybe a year or two ago, I would have given myself a four.

Nick VinZant 57:40

Oh, yeah, you're not a self aware person.

John Shull 57:43

I've gotten a lot better. I think I would say I'm at a seven now. You know, I still will do things for fun. And maybe I don't realize certain things. But there definitely was a point in time to where I was not self aware at all, and not like to self aware. I would just stay saying do things and make others around me feel uncomfortable. That was included. But I just I didn't never pay attention to my surroundings. And it just wasn't a good thing.

Nick VinZant 58:14

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I don't know if you were a four, I would say that you were probably a little bit higher. Maybe five or six. But yeah,

John Shull 58:25

just a one rung higher. But it's all good. No big deal, right?

Nick VinZant 58:29

My number five is being on time. Because I think that punctuality says a lot about somebody shows that they have respect for their time and respect for your time, which I think goes a long, long way. And they're organized generally.

John Shull 58:44

So what are you writing yourself?

Nick VinZant 58:47

Probably a seven. I'm generally on time but I'm not always prepared.

John Shull 58:54

So preparation in addition to being punctual is goes together. You're saying

Nick VinZant 59:00

yeah, but I also believe that preparation in a lot of circumstances is kind of overrated because whatever plan that you had is ultimately just going to fall apart and then you're going to have to pick the pieces up from that so why have a plan in the first place is kind of the way that I look at it. I generally take everything with like let's see what happens.

John Shull 59:18

You do you're definitely like a pessimistic optimistic person. I don't even know what the term is for that but

Nick VinZant 59:27

oh, I think that I generally believe that bad things are going to happen and that whatever plan that people have in place is going to fail but I'm usually not too worried about it like it was do something else and adapt

John Shull 59:39

that just so people know that is actually you that is not you fabricating anything alright my speaking of kind of along the same line, my number four is up optimism.

Nick VinZant 59:52

Yeah, I don't know if I would put it on my list but being like you don't like to be around negative people a lot

John Shull 59:59

cannot you know not handling negative people too much as we all know, way too much negativity in the world right now and hate and other things. I probably actually could have put this in my top two, but it'll sit at number four, I think that's a good spot for and I'll say, I'm like an eight and a half. I'm a very optimistic person I am. I don't want to say I'm happy go lucky. But I definitely always try to see the other side of things and be optimistic try to work through problems like, never really been a negative person that I can think of on a regular basis.

Nick VinZant 1:00:34

I would agree with that. My number four is aggressiveness. I don't think that you want to be too aggressive. But I think that being a little bit aggressive or pushing for the things that you want, going after things, I think that's a really good quality. I don't like it when people are the opposite of just kind of waiting for stuff to happen. So I think aggressiveness to a good degree is a really good quality. Maybe maybe a seven, I think I might be a seven. Okay, but I could go if somebody was to say no, and say that I was two points higher or two points lower, I probably would not disagree with them in either of those assessments.

John Shull 1:01:16

Okay, um, I'll agree with your seven. I mean, you're I mean, you've never not ever gotten what you've gone after. And you've always pushed yourself to be better. So

Nick VinZant 1:01:29

I'll give you a pep talk. That's a pep talk. Alright, what's your number three?

John Shull 1:01:34

Would you message me the other day rocky speech, man speech. So my number three, I could put so many on here. It's it was hard for me to come up with a real like confident list. So my number three, I'm just gonna say you have to be generous. You have to be kind.

Nick VinZant 1:01:51

Okay. All right.

John Shull 1:01:55

You know, and? Well, I mean, I think it's important. And I also think that it's that's part of getting through life is treating others well. But regardless, so all of that and saying that I would say I'm probably like a nine, I'm a really good person. I treat people well. I'm generous, I'm kind. You know, I have a saying treat people like people. And I mean, worked out. So so far.

Nick VinZant 1:02:21

Okay. I don't know if we've reached the age where we can say I have a saying. Yeah. But if I do have a saying I usually attribute it to something that my grandpa said, actually was something that I say.

John Shull 1:02:34

That's what yeah, oh, I got it from you. So thank you.

Nick VinZant 1:02:38

That's the best way to do it. Because you can't like you can't say anything brilliant. You have to pretend like somebody else told you it. That way people will listen to you. Ah, my number three is a sense of humor. And I would say I might be like a nine or a 10 in that. No,

John Shull 1:02:57

you're not funny. Oh, I'm

Nick VinZant 1:02:59

not saying that. I'm funny. But I look at like the funny side of life, that everything about life is ultimately kind of funny.

John Shull 1:03:07

Yeah, I'll get back to that, actually. Because, because I will. My number two in this is probably the most important one on my list. But you got to be honest, you got to have honesty. And to be honest, you could probably put honesty integrity as the same thing for me. I'm a 10. I don't I mean, people will tell you that and you know, this, the i embellish. I am not a liar. I'm honest. I'm pretty black and white when I actually have to be. So yeah, I mean, I give myself a 10 100% on this one.

Nick VinZant 1:03:42

It is hard to hear you say I embellish. And then say I'm a 10 and honesty directly after it. But I do kind of know what you mean, right? I don't know your mind. It's true.

John Shull 1:03:53

I don't know what the dictionary says the actual definition of embellishment is, but to me, it's adding vivid details to a story. That may not be true. But the person knows that they are not true. It's not like telling a flat out lie. Which is quite different. Right? So

Nick VinZant 1:04:13

the person that you're telling, has to know that they're not quite true. Yeah, like Sam telling. You have to know that they're not quite like

John Shull 1:04:20

Sam telling you a story. And so like, oh, yeah, I remember that time 10 years ago, and you and I got wasted and you know, you ended up throwing up over the side of your balcony and you threw up on four people and yada yada yada. You're like, I don't think that ever happened, man. I'm like, Yeah, I probably did. And but it's a good good part of the

Nick VinZant 1:04:37

good enough story, right? That's what I Yeah. Yeah, I have my that's my number two two is like trust and I would also agree that even though I haven't number two, trust is probably the most important thing. Essentially our entire society, both our personal relationships and our societal relationships revolve around trust. Without that the whole thing breaks down. Well, right Yeah, it's such a problem now.

John Shull 1:05:02

It's, it's definitely, you know, getting there. Alright, my number one, and I think this is the most important interpersonal skill that you should have. And that's having some humility. Hmm, being able to not take yourself seriously, all the time, I also think it's important to be able to laugh at yourself in a healthy way. And you know, once again, just not not be afraid to maybe make somebody else laugh. As long as it's healthy and you know, not damaging to your, your inner self.

Nick VinZant 1:05:40

Where do you feel like you're at in humility,

John Shull 1:05:44

nine and eight and nine, I mean, I've, I'm on this podcast, if anyone wants to scroll back to any other episode, I'm sure there's a especially in the beginning, when you were just throwing daggers at me. Um, you know, humility is very, it's very important. And I think it's a it's a good trait to possess.

Nick VinZant 1:06:04

I would agree with that. My number one, though, is being a good listener. I think that's the most important and the best trait for somebody to have, not just to listen to what you're saying, but actually to like, kind of understand where somebody is coming from. I think that if you can genuinely put yourself in somebody else's shoes, you can understand most of the things that people do.

John Shull 1:06:24

Yeah, that's all my honorable mention. I mean, listening is it's one of the most important things to do. Just not sure that's necessarily a trait like, listening to me is a skill. It's something that you learn, it's something that you have to apply is where I feel like a trend, I'm probably wrong in this, I feel like a trait is something that you're kind of already born with. And you either choose to possess it or not, as we're

Nick VinZant 1:06:55

I think personnel I think that listening though comes from like caring about what that person has to say. I think that if you're not listening to somebody, then you're ultimately saying, Well, I don't really care what you have to say, I don't care about the things that are happening to you. So I think that listening is related to like empathy, or being a kind person really,

John Shull 1:07:14

do you think what what where do you think you rate on the listening skill? What do you say? See how many times I've been telling a story on here? And you're like, I stopped listening?

Nick VinZant 1:07:27

No, no, no, no, I was listening. I just decided I didn't care see different I heard what you were saying I decided I didn't care or was interested by see. That's that's the same thing like I but I was listening enough to know that I was done with this. Let's see a seven or an eight, a kind listener

John Shull 1:07:45

would have let me completed it, edited it out and still made me feel like it was important enough for them to listen to instead of cutting me off.

Nick VinZant 1:07:54

But a slightly aggressive person, which I also think is a good characteristic to have would cut you off and say like, Look, I'm not paying attention to this. Like you need to wrap this story up. The only thing in your honorable mention that really stands out.

John Shull 1:08:09

I mean, I just mentioned that patience. Patience isn't isn't

Nick VinZant 1:08:14

Oh, yeah, it's a virtue.

John Shull 1:08:18

13 commandments, right, or something like that? Anyways, um, I also have confidence and ambitiousness I think those are, you know, confidence is important. And sometimes I feel like all you have to do is be a confident person. And you don't have to have any skill at anything. And you'll be successful.

Nick VinZant 1:08:36

I would put kindness on that list. But I think that kindness kind of gets wrapped up into a lot of these other things. Like if you're honest with people, if you're a good listener, if you're on time, if you have a sense of humor that you probably are pretty kind, so I don't think that you need to have that stand out on its own.

John Shull 1:08:53

One thing's for sure. big titties. Big old Dong. Oh, and we're done.

Nick VinZant 1:09:04

Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the best personality traits. I think it would be really hard to be trustworthiness and sense of humor. But if there's something else that you think no, no, no, this is the best personality trait. Let us know