Why are people right or left handed? Handedness Researcher Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg has spent his career trying to figure that out. We talk why people are left handed, why more people are right handed and what being left or right handed says about the rest of your body and brain. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Minor Rules We’re Okay with Breaking.
00:00: Intro
01:12: Why are people right of left handed
08:11: When Handedness is decided
15:12: Patterns to Handedness
19:53: It’s Not Just Your Hands
29:16: Pointless
43:38: Candle of the Month
46:37: Top 5 Rules We Don’t Follow
Interview with Handedness Researcher Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg
Nick VinZant 0:00
Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, handedness and rules, we aren't afraid to break minor ones, but we still break
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 0:24
them. Why somebody's left or right handed has all to do with the organization of the brain. Both left and right handers are very convinced that left handers are more creative these these brain asymmetries are influencing our everyday lives, pretty much every second of our existence.
Nick VinZant 0:44
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest, because he studies why people are right or left handed, and what that really means. This is handedness. Researcher, Dr Sebastian Oakland Berg, why are people right or left handed?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 1:12
Why somebody's left or right handed has all to do with the organization of the brain. So handedness, while named for the hands, have nothing to do with the hands. The brain has two halves, left and right half, and the left half is controlling the right half of the body, so also the right arm. And the right half of the brain is controlling the left part of the body. So also the left hand. And we know that these two parts of the brain, they're not completely identical, so they often have different tasks, and we call that brain dominance, or hemispherical symmetries. And handedness is one of these hemispherical symmetries for a left handed person, the right motor cortex, the right motor part of the brain is dominant for fine motor movements like writing a laugh letter or drawing a doodle or whatever, and for right handed person, that is reversed. So why somebody's left or right handed is because they have different brain dominance for hand movements.
Nick VinZant 2:24
Why would there be a brain dominance difference in people
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 2:28
that has to do a lot with efficiency. So the brain is a very energy hungry organ. So if you look at how much of the calories that the body or a person takes in every day is used to keep the brain thinking. It's about 20% the brain itself has a mass less than a kilo, so it's a pretty small organ compared to the rest of the body, but it's very energy hungry and by like dividing tasks into one hemisphere, not unnecessarily doubling them and have them performed by both hemispheres. But the body essentially does is to conserve energy.
Nick VinZant 3:11
So I'm gonna try to take this as far as I possibly can, right so I'm left handed. If there is something different in my brain that makes me left handed? Are people who are left handed fundamentally different than people who are right handed? Like if there's a difference in the brain, is it different throughout the entire body? Or is this no, you just use your left
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 3:39
hand, just as people have different bodies, people have different brains, and there is not such a thing as sort of like, it's a better or worse in terms of brain organization of left or right handers. It's just basically flipped right. If you're a left hander, your dominant side is the other side than mine. I'm a right hander, but it doesn't make you in any way, like, inherently better or worse organized. We just understand this is sort of like a normal continuum of how brains can be organized. But it has no like, like deeper impact on a lot of other things, except that it is sometimes related to other forms of symmetry. So we know, for example, language, the abilities to speak, this is very asymmetrically organized, and about 95% of right handers, but only 75% of left handers. Language is represented in the left hemisphere. You don't necessarily see this in everyday life a lot, but people always notice this if they have a family member who suffered a stroke, because if people have a stroke, and the Stroke affects the left side of the brain, so for example, like the left. That major artery is clogged, then the patients always have strong difficulties in speaking, while, if somebody has a stroke that affects only the right side of the brain, most of the time, people don't have problems speaking. But sometimes, if they left handed, they have
Nick VinZant 5:20
so being right or left handed doesn't kind of set the brain up in a whole different way.
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 5:27
No. So this is what people thought like, maybe in the 70s or 80s. But newer research pretty much shows that what it does is it affects our motor abilities. But all these ideas that people had, like 2030, years ago, that, for example, like left handers are more creative, there's a very recent, very interesting study on that, and that basically shows both left and right handers are very convinced that left handers are more creative. Left handers also, very significantly, choose certain jobs where they think creativity is something that is important for the job. But if you actually measure artistic ability or creative thinking or creative ability. What the results show in big meter studies is pretty much left handers can be great creative artists. Left handers can also be not creative at all. And the same goes for right handers, no. So the objectively measured ability, if you go away from these, like very small studies people did, like in the 70s or 80s, and you really go to massive numbers of people. So there's no difference in, like, creativity in the brain between left and right handers. There's just a very big difference in the belief about that left handers are more creative than right handers, and similar things have also been found for intelligence. So people thought left earners might be more intelligent, other people thought they are less intelligent. Then there was the idea there's no fluctuation in intelligence. But do the largest studies show there is no difference that is a lot of things are sort of societal beliefs that are not really backed up by the science the large scale science we do today when we find differences in sort of like performances or abilities between left and right handedness. These have often to do with like situational demands and surprise like all these sports finding but this is not that left handers are inherently better boxers or tennis players or pitchers. It is just in a system in which people train mostly facing right handed opponents, they have this element of rarity, which makes them harder to handle because the opponents didn't train for that situation as well, typically, and don't encounter it as much.
Nick VinZant 8:11
So when is our handedness decided? Is this moment of conception, like as soon as we are formed individuals we are, the decision is made, or is it like six months in two years in like, when is our handedness kind of established?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 8:30
It's quite interesting. It established much earlier than most people would think. It is established long before birth. So there is a series of experiments on that where people would use very advanced ultrasound techniques. So you know, the typical ultrasound pictures, like pretty much every parent gets of their kids, and they're like similar pictures, but much more detailed. And what you could show by using these ultrasound techniques is that, if you do this repeatedly, that fetuses in the womb have a preferred side to interact with their arm or to touch their face and things like that. So they show these motor symmetries. It's of course not handedness in the sense of writing, but they show motor symmetries very early
Nick VinZant 9:21
on. What would happen then, if somebody who was supposed to be right handed was forced to be left handed or vice versa? Do we lose something if we lose our natural handedness?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 9:36
Yes, you do. If you train any ability, you train a sport, what happens in the brain is neuroplasticity, right? So your brain can adapt. You learn a new language, your brain changes. You learn how to play in the piano, your brain changes. You learn how to play baseball. Your brain changes. But it isn't your whole brain that changes. It is mostly those areas that get Di. Direct feedback from what you're doing, right? So if you write with your non dominant hand, you use your so called primary motor cortex, so the part of the brain of the motor part of the brain that is directly controlling the hands, and we know from your imaging studies that it is pretty much possible to relearn these parts of the brain to the other hand, the problem is that the control of our like writing or whatever we're doing with our hands, is also influenced by other brain areas that's called the supplementary motor cortex, and you cannot train this brain area as well as these direct re involved brain areas. So what happens is that a lot of these people who are relearning their handedness, be it forced or like voluntarily, they report that, for example, writing is much more difficult, much harder for them than with the dominant hands. They report they have, like, more cramps they have, like, often lose interest in writing and find it very like, much harder than they used to find it with the dominant hands. And the idea is that you basically only partially learn to write with the other hand. So the movement itself, you learn, but the planning aspects you don't. And then your head gets a little bit confused, because then on one side of the brain, the movements are planned. On the other side of the brain, you're executing the movements. But then these brain areas are not next to each other anymore, but they always have to go over the connections between the two hemispheres, so you take longer. It gets more complicated to
Nick VinZant 11:48
conduct this movement. You can do it, but you'll never be the same.
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 11:52
And if you look at the clinical research, you also typically find that people find it emotionally challenging, so they tend not to enjoy the relearning process and find it very difficult and hard.
Nick VinZant 12:08
So for me, I'm left handed, sitting down, right left handed. Brush my teeth, left handed. But if I'm standing up, I'm right handed. Like sports, I throw a ball right handed. I shoot a basketball right handed. Why would that be? Like, why would there be the differences in those for some people like that, like, why would somebody be one hand this way and one hand that way?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 12:32
Handedness is sort of a continuum, right? So people used to measure handedness by just asking for writing hand. But these days, what we do is we try to get a larger spectrum of behaviors people do with their hand. And what you typically find, what's quite interesting is that most right handed people, they use their right hand for pretty much everything. So they're really, like 100% right handed for every single behavior, and it very rarely do anything with the left hand. Left handers on the other side typically show the pattern that you are describing. There are very few left handers that are actually using the left hand for absolutely everything, but it's more common that they use the left hand for the majority of activities, and especially for writing. For most people, the writing is what defines them as a left hander. But it's not uncommon that a left hander would, for example, like throw a baseball or open something with the right hand also. And the question about why this happens have, I think, at some point, to do with the environment. So can you remember, like, who's taught you how to throw a baseball?
Nick VinZant 13:54
Oh, probably my father, who was right handed.
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 13:57
Yeah, your dad, when he was right handed. So what he typically, what typically happens is, since there are more people who are right handed, a lot of left handed kids that have right handed parents, and they teach them these behaviors, like throwing, they are not fine motor behaviors, but they're, they're just like, much more easier to do with the non dominant hand, right? So for example, if you think about writing with the right hand, that's probably harder than throwing a baseball with the right hand. So these are obviously much easier to learn with the non dominant hand. And if you now think you spend a lot of fun times with your dad throwing baseballs, and you just wanted to do it like he did, and you basically did what we call imitation learning. Then your learning history, because you learned it from right handed person, might have influenced your preference here,
Nick VinZant 14:55
but then would that mean that like, if I can throw a football 30 yard? With my right hand, whatever, what, and I'm a natural left hander. If I had just done it with my left hand, would I be able to throw it 32 yards, or whatever, like would I be if that hadn't have been taught to me? Did I lose something in that process?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 15:17
Yeah, you might, for example, if, if you typically, if you use something like force measurement on dominant non dominant hands, people typically find that people are stronger and can generate more force with the dominant hand.
Nick VinZant 15:34
Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions,
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 15:38
I can try my best.
Nick VinZant 15:42
Are there patterns to handedness, like are there certain populations, whether that be age ranges, geographic locations, ethnicities that tend to be more left handed or more right handed than other populations?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 15:58
Men are more likely to be left handed than women, about 1% and this is probably something where male sex hormones, like testosterone, play a role for handedness. The other pattern we see, if you do like large worldwide integration, is that there is a age pattern, but I don't think it's actually an age pattern in the terms that like older people are less likely to be left handed. This is just reflecting that these practices of relearning children have been abandoned by most countries at sort of like the 70s, right? So I'm not sure about the States, but in Germany, I think they stopped doing it and around 71 so older people are more likely to show up as right handed in bigger studies, because there have been more old people who have been retrained from left handedness to right handedness. There's also the opposite thing that in some countries, mostly in Scandinavia, where the relearning was never practiced as much and was always been very positive towards left handedness, there tend to be a few more left handers. So this goes up to like 15 something percent, about the worldwide average of 10.6% but we also know there's no country in the world where left handedness goes above 20% so it's always a minority, no matter where you're looking.
Nick VinZant 17:41
Why was the right hand the dominant one? Why has it always been dominant
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 17:46
that? That's hard to say. I think it might just be like a random process that at some point, one thing became the more calm one in the population, and the other point the more rare one, and then this rarity, this frequency dependent selection, basically took over, because we know that is pretty unique for humans, right? So we know in humans, it's 10.6% left handedness. But for example, if you look at cats, there was almost equal numbers. So it is not like that in all animals, it is always like a huge dominance for the left hand and for the right hand. It is something that seems to be typically human.
Nick VinZant 18:31
Does handedness extend to footedness? Like if you're left handed? Are you left footed to
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 18:38
some extent, but not 100% yes, there is a significant association. So most right handers are also right footed, but it's not going up to 100% so there is also a couple of right handed people that are left footed.
Nick VinZant 18:56
Why do we have two hemispheres? Like, why not just have one big brain? I mean, we have one big brain. You know what I mean, like, why is there two? Why split it in half? What seems to be the reason for that?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 19:08
The reason for that is, obviously, we're a bilateral organism, right? So we have two arms and two two legs, and we are moving around in a three dimensional world. So what would happen if you have one big brain and that would send like one motor signal out both of your feet would move forward at the same time, and you would fall over and hurt your head, right? So the idea to have to to isolate it motor, motor activator is basically in the two hemispheres, I think, is that this like, like
Nick VinZant 19:53
two what's the most interesting thing about handedness to you
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 19:58
that you can pay? Basically learn a lot about how the brain or somebody is organized just by looking at what they're doing. So people don't they think with their brain, but they don't think a lot about their brain. And by looking at all these like tiny symmetries and tiny quirks and habits of people in their everyday life, you learn a lot about them without them actually realizing that. And this is something that is important for our behavior and our feelings on a lot more levels than people actually think so. For example, if you remember last time you kissed somebody, have you ever consciously thought about that you have a very strong asymmetry in your preference on how to turn your head when kissing. So most right handed people turn their head to the right when kissing, and they find it very, very weird to turn it to the other side. And there's lots of other things like that, right? So if you hack somebody, you hack that person almost always with the same arm leading into the hack. People have a favorite side on to chew their food on right of their mouth. So you don't like chew all the food in the center. You have one side where you like to chew your food or better, because it makes you feel better emotionally and so on and so on. So if you really start looking for it, or eye blinking things like that, how you tilt your head if you're really looking into that? These, these brain asymmetries are influencing our everyday lives pretty much every second of our existence. Most people never actually like consciously think about how their brain organization shaping their lives. I find it very interesting to understand these things, because it tells you a lot about how these very old mechanisms of how nervous systems are organized and regulate are still very much relevant for us in 2025
Nick VinZant 22:02
Yeah. Now that I think about like, anything that I do, I always do it with a certain side. If I reach for a door, I reach for it with a certain side. When I give somebody a hug, I do it with a certain side. I think that's the interesting thing for me, personally, is that like, because there's that left hand, right hand, I do. I always have to figure out which way I'm going to do something like, If I play a new sport, like if I go bowling, like, okay, am I bowling with my left hand? Am I bowling with my right hand? And I kind of have to figure it out a little bit.
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 22:36
Pretty much everything that can be like done to one side. People do to to one side, for example. Also social media. It's very interesting, if you look at social media, if you analyze like positions of people. So we did, for example, studies on like, how people tilt their head when they look at like if they pose for a picture. So most people would have a so called left cheek bias. If you take a picture, like a selfie for your Instagram or whatever social media you're using, the chances are very high you put your left cheek forward, because research shows the left cheek in most people is more emotionally expressive when it comes to positive emotions, right which has to do with the right side of the brain being being relevant for for emotions. So people don't actually like go to the scientific literature neuroscience and read that and then consciously decide I put my left cheek forward. No, they intuitively do that because they realize people on a like certain level react more positive to this. You can quantify this, right? So if you, if you look at like likes on pictures, people like left cheek forward, pictures more.
Nick VinZant 24:00
Have you ever ran into somebody that was truly ambidextrous? It's very,
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 24:05
very rare. So there's a huge discussion on that topic, the ambidexterity. So what we tend to differentiate, if you really want to go into the details here, is there's left handed people, there's right handed people, there's mixed handed people. So this means somebody who's using the left hand for certain activities, the right hand for other activities. And there's also two more categories, and this is like the ambidextrous. And ambidex just is defined as somebody who's on like all tasks, as good as a person who's right handed with their dominant hand. So you would do to measure ambidexterity, you would have. People doing some sort of like time dexterity tasks. So for example, they have to write the alphabet very fast and very accurately. They have to move like little wooden packs on a wooden board with holes and like certain patterns very quickly, very accurately. They have like like on a touch screen, they have, like, little dots and what to have to make, have circles that would have to make little dots on it. And then you time this with your left hand and with your right hand. And then you just check whether there are people who, for all these domains of handedness, are really as good with the right hand and the left hand as a right hander with the right hand. And this is very rare. So I would estimate the population average about 1.0 point 1% so maybe one, 1000 people or so, most people actually consider themselves ambidextrous. If you do like a rigorous scientific testing with them, they are actually more mixed standard. There's also the opposite of ambidextrous, so people can also be as bad as a right hander with their left hand, with both hands, so you can actually have two left hands. But that's also quite rare, right? So, you know, like some people are super, super clumsy and things like that. So this also exists, but it's also very rare.
Nick VinZant 26:41
Is their life really tough then,
Speaker 1 26:42
like, they depends on your job, I think, right? You're not playing a piano, yeah?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 26:48
She shouldn't. You shouldn't do like, wood, car ring, I guess, surgery, right? Yeah, don't become a brain surgeon if, yeah, be soon as to let that's a thing that's pretty much all the
Nick VinZant 26:59
questions that I got, is there anything that you think that we missed, or anything like missed, or anything
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 27:03
like that? There was some question about animals, I think in your list?
Nick VinZant 27:06
Oh, yeah. Like, is handedness in animals at all? Like, do we seem to be the only ones with the handedness? Are there other things throughout the animal kingdom?
Dr. Sebastian Ocklenburg 27:17
No, there's definitely. So people used to think that that handedness is sort of like a thing that's totally only existing in humans, but it's absolutely not the case. So we did a study where we looked in like handedness in pretty much all animals in which handedness has ever been investigated. And these are 172 animal species. You will not believe how many people wrote a PhD on handedness or partners, as you might call it, in cats or dogs. It's a quite, quite a favorite topic at veterinary schools, I think. And what we found was basically that handedness by itself, is quite calm in the animal kingdom. So on average, there was more than 72% of animal species that showed signs for left and right handedness. And the interesting thing is that typically for animals, left handedness or left partners or left flipperness or left whatever you might want to call it, is more common than in humans. So left handed cats more come than the left handed humans or left left poor dogs are more calm than their left handed humans. So it is come that animals show it, but they tend to have a more equal distribution of right and left handedness than humans do. I
Nick VinZant 28:59
want to thank Dr Oakland Berg, so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media sites. We're profoundly pointless on tick tock Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in John Shull and get to the pointless part of this show, are you a rule follower? Do you consider yourself someone who generally follows the rules?
John Shull 29:29
Yes, I'm a rule follower, but I think I've only become a rule follower in the last 10 years of my life. So once I hit 33 I become a rule follower, and I think that's because I finally understand that, you know, you should stop at a crosswalk and wait for the the little white illuminated man before you try to cross a busy intersection. Or, you know, says, wash your hands before leaving the bathroom. You probably should wash your hands before leaving the bathroom. I'll follow
Nick VinZant 29:59
rules if I think. They're important. If I don't particularly think that they're important or like that's not really for me in this situation, then I'm not going to
John Shull 30:09
I do think we have too many rules. I think we get hung up on creating too many stupid rules that make no sense, but I will follow the rules that make sense to me. Now, does that make sense to you? I don't know, but I follow the rules that make sense to me.
Nick VinZant 30:25
Well, I think that we have so many rules is because some people really are just that dumb. Like, some people are really just that dumb, like, you know, what? Don't have glass bottles next to a pool. Probably shouldn't do that, right? Like, some people really don't think about the consequences of their actions in any way. But I'm also a big believer in that old adage of 90% of the like 10% of the people cause 90% of the problems. I
John Shull 30:55
will say getting in trouble sucks, like getting in serious adult trouble. I don't know if I've ever felt lower than like, you know, not following a rule and getting caught. And I firmly believe that you always get caught.
Nick VinZant 31:13
Oh, I don't really have that much of a problem getting caught, because I'm very good at kind of just being like, Oops, sorry about that, and then just moving on, like, Oh, I didn't know. My bad.
John Shull 31:23
I'm not even I'm just referring to like, like, do you think you're the kind of person that is like, say you roll through a stop sign, or you accidentally steal something without knowing? Do you feel like you're always the person that gets caught?
Nick VinZant 31:38
No, I generally do not, but I'm how to say this without sounding like a douche bag. I'm generally more aware of my surroundings than other people. I think it's really ultimately a consequence of what I used to do for a living, which is be a reporter, where you kind of have to know how things work. You kind of have to pay attention to a lot of the details. So I think it's a side effect of that that I generally if I'm breaking the rules, it's because I'm pretty confident that it's okay in that situation.
John Shull 32:12
Like, like, you know, there on a daily basis, what percentage of the rules, just general rules. Do you think you follow on a daily basis,
Nick VinZant 32:24
all the big ones, none of the small ones.
John Shull 32:28
Okay, well, I guess we'll get into later, what maybe some of the small ones are. Okay.
Nick VinZant 32:32
So like, if I'm at the gym and I'm just starting out, and I have literally not sweated in any way, and the only thing that has touched a bench is my clothing. I'm not going to wipe down that bench because I never actually touched it and or sweated on it or anything like that. Like, if it's fine, okay, then I'm okay with it, like it's it's all right. But
John Shull 32:59
I want to. I want to. I also want to make a declaration on this podcast that I took my kids were off of school. You know, they they started school. But you know that weird week, if you're a parent, you know what I'm talking about, where they are not in day camp or summer school, and you have a week
Nick VinZant 33:12
off where you actually have to be responsible for your children and can't pass them off to somebody else.
John Shull 33:19
I hate you regardless. I took them to a planetarium, and I gotta tell you, I am, like, intrigued by the stars. I've never realized how much I don't know about the sky above. It's kind of like thinking about the ocean below. How little you actually know it's it's pretty intimidating.
Nick VinZant 33:40
Oh, I mean, I think that science is fascinating. We've had a number of like astronomers and people who deal with space in the scientific manner on this show, including a UFO expert, in case you don't want the super sciencey stuff. But I can't think about space. I have about five minutes of complete, total wonder and awe, and then it transitions into terror.
John Shull 34:02
Like, no, I mean, I mean the fact that things are 30 million miles away, you know, and that's just what we know. It's insane. We don't have to talk about it. I was just like, I felt like I was eight years old. So if you ever want to go and just feel like you're literally a speck of dust, go to a planetarium and have someone talk to you about our universe. It's incredible.
Nick VinZant 34:24
This is the whole reason for the name of the show. It's profoundly pointless. Your life is the most profound thing that you will ever do, and it's totally pointless in the grand scheme of things, bam.
John Shull 34:35
It only took us 300 episodes, 380 episodes, to finally get the title in something we're talking
Nick VinZant 34:42
about, to finally where I explain why the name of the show is profoundly pointless. Yeah,
John Shull 34:46
it's not our great haircuts.
Nick VinZant 34:48
Not that I didn't get a haircut. God, no haircut. Haircut is going to be added to the list of things that you mention all the time. I
John Shull 34:57
didn't talk about my basement either. I. By the way, but I can
Nick VinZant 35:01
also John and I, before we started recording, he did something. He won't be able to do it now because it'll mess up the recording. But if you can look in his background, he has one of the album covers that he selected is in sync. That's an in sync album cover behind you, and you blurred it out so my question to you is, why are you the type of person who is going to proudly display things in Your own home for the people who know you but are ashamed to show that to other people?
John Shull 35:36
You know? What's funny is, okay, this is going to seem like a total cop out, but I had a fantasy draft on Saturday, and I'm I had different albums. I did not realize that whoever messed with my albums put up Spice Girls and two NSYNC albums to go along with Ozzy. So the three of those were not up there before, by the way.
Nick VinZant 36:02
God, you are such a snob. Why such a snob? I have my album covers. Did you measure the distance between where you hung the album covers in the background? Did you measure it? Or did you eyeball it? Like, oh, I want to make sure you measured it. I mean,
John Shull 36:19
what's what's wrong with liking vinyl, like records. There's nothing wrong. I mean,
Nick VinZant 36:23
there's nothing wrong with it. Like it all you want. Why do you have to put it on display and show everybody? The question is, is that? Why can't you have a hobby without having to showcase it
John Shull 36:32
to the entire world? I You brought it up. I would, didn't even know that they were out there. You
Nick VinZant 36:37
measured the distance between the did you measure it side to side? Or did you measure the distance between them vertically and horizontally, or just horizontally?
John Shull 36:46
Yes, let's give some shout outs here. Mohammed Morrison, Edna, Anthony, I like the name Edna. I don't know why, but I like it. So thank you very. Tiny name. Mariano Brock, Allison, Hoover, Carrie, Hendrix, Thurman, Farrell, Margaret, Rogers, Louisiana. Bar. Don't think that's her real name, but whatever. And then we're going to end on, I had to, I had to dig for this one this week. But this might be one of my favorite shout out names at least of the last year, and that is Wilbur hunt.
Nick VinZant 37:26
Well, you don't see a lot of wilburs. You do not
John Shull 37:29
see a lot of wilburs,
Nick VinZant 37:31
but that is a person that, if someone is named Wilbur, you look at them and go, Oh, that's a Wilbur. Yeah, that's Wilbur. Oh, yeah, that's a Wilbur. Yeah,
John Shull 37:44
Wilbur. Single lives on a farm. It's never touched a woman, but it's, it's, it's Wilbur. So that is what it is.
Nick VinZant 37:50
Wilbur. Wilbur is swimming in it. Sure, Wilbur is swimming in it. When do you want to talk about your big day? When do you want to talk about your professor professional wrestling debut.
John Shull 38:03
We can do that now, if you'd like, Okay, did you happen to have a chance to watch the clip? I said,
Nick VinZant 38:08
No, I didn't. Alright, that's kind of,
John Shull 38:13
I know. I mean, it's so for those of you that have no idea we're talking about, I got
Nick VinZant 38:19
to, we're going to show it over this video, if we can
John Shull 38:21
a dream of being a professional wrestler, I won't bore you with the details. It was exciting, it was fun, it was chaotic. It was I mean, I left that night, I went to bed thinking two main thoughts from this experience, one, just because it's choreographed and fake. And I'm air quoting for all of you that aren't watching this, still catching someone I had to catch, like, 180 I saw that, yeah. Like, that's not fake. And like, if I, if I miss step, if I, if my balance wasn't right. Like, I would have ruined the whole spot right. Like, so it's it's fake, but it isn't fake. And the second thing was, I am so happy that I did not choose that life, because I give mad props. And we've had India wrestlers on here before. Yeah, I give so much credit to those people, men, men and women who are doing that and who have done that because you're getting paid nothing. The safety isn't that great, and you're basically doing it for the high of the crowd, right? Like, you can almost say it's a narcissistic effect. But I, I have a couple more appearances that I'm scheduled for through the fall. But I I would never do this. Like, like, even if I was offered millions of dollars, I'm not sure I would do this for a living,
Nick VinZant 39:47
millions of dollars. It
John Shull 39:51
like I was minimally involved, but on when I did it last Saturday, and, like, just the, I mean, you know what? Like, one. Guy, and I won't say his name, he was, he was in Canada. The night before he made like 100 bucks, came there. He was going to make 100 bucks. He was going to Indiana on Indiana, on Labor Day, to make like 250 like, and he was like 45 like, a lot of wrestlers never make it. And if you've ever seen the movie The Wrestler that is, yeah, that is so true to life, and I got to live it on Saturday. I mean,
Nick VinZant 40:27
that's like, far, I always have a difficult difficulty in that, in terms of, like, are you following your passion, or are you delusional?
John Shull 40:38
I mean, I was actually going to ask you about this, so kind of segues into this as much as I want to talk about my wrestling debut. College football this past weekend was the worst product of college football that I can remember ever watching, and I think most of that has to do with two things. One, my disinterest in the sport now, because nobody stays right. There are no four, no more. Four more, four year players. And the second, like, the second thing is, Michigan played New Mexico, right? Easy game. It doesn't matter. New Mexico had 70 new players this year on their team. They can only carry like 75 that's absurd to me.
Nick VinZant 41:23
Oh, I just think it's being exposed for what it always really was, like, it was never really about the team or the school. It's just for making money, like it's just light professional sports,
John Shull 41:36
yeah, and you're not wrong. It's never been about the the athlete, but I don't know until a decade ago, maybe five years ago, at least, people made you believe that kids that went there believe that you have freshmen making, you know, millions of dollars and like, they don't even have to go to the pros if they were smart with their money.
Nick VinZant 41:56
No, not really. I mean, some of those people probably make more?
John Shull 42:01
But I say that to go back, like it's a delusion, and yes, and I hate saying it, because everyone I ran into at the show was amazing, like, they were friendly. I literally had one guy go, I know you've never done this before, but pop me for real. Like, let's make it look good. Like, literally hit me in the stomach and kick me in the back. Like, that's, let's give you some real heat, which, in the wrestling world is, you know, make me look more like a bad guy. And I was like, Dude, are you, are you sure about that? And he's like, yeah. Like, he's like, I'll tell you if it's enough. I'm like, wow. Like, you don't even know me, and you're willing to take, take things like that. Like, it's just incredible.
Nick VinZant 42:37
Did you like, Okay, what percentage power did you hit
John Shull 42:41
him? I mean, so from having watched wrestling, I kind of know how to fake it, and I'm air quoting again, but 6070, like, so I kicked him, and then I started hitting him on the back with my like forearm. And that, that I did pretty, that I that I did probably 80%
Nick VinZant 43:00
so, man, yeah. And as a grown man, hitting another grown man, even 50% is gonna hurt,
John Shull 43:06
yeah? And, like I said, it's just, it's incredible. The people were incredible. I had a great time. But you know, you're absolutely right. It's a delusion versus a reality. And the reality is, everyone that I was in the ring with, like, they have day jobs. Like, you know, yeah, most of there's one guy who, like, I said, that's a that's a professional wrestler.
Nick VinZant 43:27
But so are you now technically a professional wrestler? Are you gonna go around telling people your professional
John Shull 43:35
wrestler, your goddamn right? I am. Well, anyways, is it time? Are we gonna saddle up for one more cowboy? Like, I
Nick VinZant 43:43
don't have the energy to give you a good intro, because you depressed me. I don't
John Shull 43:46
want to depress you. You want me to talk in
Nick VinZant 43:50
time. Oh, best one I've done, the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again, candle of the month.
John Shull 44:03
That was good. That was with my that was
Nick VinZant 44:06
the best horse I've done, and that was the best horse I've done,
John Shull 44:09
easily, easily, alright, so perfect. This is I wish. I wish that I hadn't have gotten a little tipsy before my wrestling debut Saturday and through this candle on accident, but this candle go to Bath and Body Works amazing. It's amazing pumpkin pecan waffles you want to bring in the fall with aromas that will make your loved ones Pants Fall Off. Get them a little pumpkin pecan waffles candle at Bath and Body work. It's gonna be a little expensive. It's three weeks. You know, I feel about my wicks, like three wicks. It's gonna be about $27 plus shipping for one candle. But I gotta tell you, I can, gotta tell you, so. I've been kind of in this groove the last like six months. I'm kind of changing over to non traditional wax candles. This is a soy wax candle, and I love it. It just smells and burns differently than a traditional wax candle.
Nick VinZant 45:19
Oh, my god, does it? Tell me more,
John Shull 45:23
John, I know you're excited. You know what? People out there care about this. I've seen the metrics. They go up during this, during this part. Okay, not that we ever get metrics, but if we did, I know they would. Um, anyways, check it out. Pumpkin pecan waffles. It is limited edition because for the season, but Bath and Body Works, hook you up. I'm working on a sponsorship. I'm also working on trademarking candle connoisseur, because no one's done it.
Nick VinZant 45:54
Target Date 2028,
John Shull 45:56
we'll see. We'll see. I
Nick VinZant 45:57
have one big problem with your candle of the month. What is it called? Again,
John Shull 46:03
pumpkin pecan
Nick VinZant 46:04
waffles. It's pecan. Are you sure pumpkin pecan?
John Shull 46:12
Why do you say pecan? So funny. It's pecan.
Nick VinZant 46:15
It's pecan. That's how I say it pecan, not
John Shull 46:19
pecan. It sounds like you're like, you sound like a bird.
Nick VinZant 46:24
You sound like you don't know what the word is. It's pecan.
John Shull 46:29
Oh, trust me, I've had plenty of pecans, right?
Nick VinZant 46:32
Is that what you call it? What do you say? Router, root, root. So our top five is top five rules we don't follow. Like I'm not following that rule. What's your
John Shull 46:46
number five, that you're not supposed to pee in the pool or pee in a lake?
Nick VinZant 46:52
Oh, I would have that. I feel like that should have been much higher. I've got no problems peeing in a lake.
John Shull 46:59
I mean, it's you don't pee in a lake. It's not a big deal. But like, yeah, you're not. It's more of the pool thing. Like, I know you're not. You're not supposed to pee in the pool. Everybody does it, and then everyone swims through the warm spot. And everybody does this. You're swimming, you come across a warm spot who peed in the pool. Man, it's warm over here, and no one takes acknowledgement of it. No one
Nick VinZant 47:23
takes no one's going to claim it. Yeah. How would you feel if you were, like, warm spot, and then somebody just goes, That's me, and you didn't know who it was. Like, you're in a public pool, and somebody's just like, that's me.
John Shull 47:35
Well, the first person in my life, this is a shout out to everybody that tells me that they peed in the pool. I will buy you a beer.
Nick VinZant 47:44
Okay? My number five is free sample related. I take more than one free sample. I've taken as many as three free samples, and I've got no problem taking more than one free sample. I don't say anything. I just do it. Taking two. No excuse, no nothing. I'll take two in a hard,
John Shull 48:08
favorite free sample lately that you've had and where from,
Nick VinZant 48:13
we had a salmon burger from Costco that was pretty good. I went back there a couple of times. And my two boys, who are six and nine also do the same thing, but we take turns, and we go up there and all get like two maybe three. My son will get like two maybe three. Other son will get like two maybe three. We got nine free samples by the end, if we got a whole damn burger,
John Shull 48:39
they don't care, right? They're just dishing it out. They don't care.
Nick VinZant 48:43
We go into the Costco. If we go in as a family of four, my wife, myself, two boys, we walk in soon as we're in there, we're gone. We go through all the free samples, and we go to the food counter to get Sundays. And we don't associate with my wife in any way. We don't wait for her. We don't look for her. We don't do any of that. We are on our complete own mission.
John Shull 49:05
Wow. I'm sure that she loves that she does,
Nick VinZant 49:07
because she can do her shopping in peace. It works out very well for all of us.
John Shull 49:13
Oh, man, I, I can't stand stores anymore, especially Costco, because you walk in, you're the Verizon people or the AT and T people that want,
Nick VinZant 49:21
Oh, don't be that. Not nice. And I cancel this podcast in a second. You be smart. Costco in front of me again. Okay, what's number four? I
John Shull 49:33
didn't know you were such a Costco fan. My bad. I love Costco. My Okay, go. I'll go right now. Gonna put you on the spot, best food at Costco. If you were gonna order one thing right now from the food court, what would it
Nick VinZant 49:46
be they Oh, from the food court. Yeah, chocolate sundae.
John Shull 49:52
I've never even had a chocolate sundae from there.
Nick VinZant 49:54
Well, you need to get up on life, son, because you're missing out. You spent you. Entire life, just wasting it. You just been wasting this last 30 years. You've gone to Costco. How many times not gotten a chocolate sundae looking like a daisy fresh rookie over there?
John Shull 50:09
No, I get the Costco dog because that's what real men get. It's a Costco
Nick VinZant 50:14
dog. And then I get a Sunday you're
John Shull 50:16
gonna try to tell me about Costco. You're probably getting the weak ass piece of pizza too, aren't you? Get the whole pizza. Get the whole pizza. I've
Nick VinZant 50:24
gone in there and I've had to make a decision between ordering a pizza or just getting the requisite number of pizzas slices. And I'll just do that like, you want to wait 20 minutes for the pizza. It's 999, like, no, I'll just buy eight pieces, and that'll be 1299 not waiting. Well, that's a dick. Time is money, and that's time that I could be spending walking around looking for free samples.
John Shull 50:46
It's actually got a spark, alright? My number four is I see any while driving. If I see anything yellow, like a yellow light, come on the, you know, the the traffic lights. I press the gas, I don't slow down. Oh yeah, forward, I don't I'm not expressing caution. I That's like, I see the yellow light and I'm like, fucking I gotta go.
Nick VinZant 51:11
That's probably the only time in my societal life when I get visibly pissed off, is when the person in front of me knows they could have made it through the damn light. I could have made it through the damn yellow light, and you hit the brakes. I get pissed, and I know that there's so many people that have been in front of me on the road and just seen somebody going
John Shull 51:34
like, I mean, listen, like you said just two minutes ago, time is money.
Nick VinZant 51:38
Time is money. I can't stand a coward. My number four is showering before getting in the pool. I see that sign every time I go to a public pool, and never once have I showered, and never once will I shower. Oh,
John Shull 51:51
yeah, I don't know if I've ever been to a pool where I've seen that sign. I
Nick VinZant 51:55
don't know if anybody's ever done it like somebody actually showered before they got into the
John Shull 52:01
pool? Yeah? That that really doesn't make a lot of sense. If you think about it, some people their shower is the pool.
Nick VinZant 52:08
Oh, yeah, I've been that person. Yeah. I mean, maybe if you're in the Olympics, then you need to shower before you get in the pool. But otherwise,
John Shull 52:18
but one like, why?
Nick VinZant 52:20
Gotta wash off because some idiot probably comes in there straight from a mudding festival. Like, can I get in? Like, no idiot, shower off. Like it's all. Basically, almost all of society's rules have to be geared around idiots,
John Shull 52:36
but it's always the one like, when you don't you, would you rather be an idiot that follows the rules or an or a rule follower that has to follow rules because of one idiot?
Nick VinZant 52:48
I don't even know the answer to that question because I'm confused as to which one I am. Like I don't feel like there was, there wasn't a there wasn't a comma or semicolon or period anywhere in that that gave me context as to which one are those I was I have no idea what you meant.
John Shull 53:05
That's fair, agree. So I still this is a little embarrassing. I still don't know how to follow the rules air quotes again and like properly use table silverware, like if I'm at a nice meal, I don't know which fork to use, which spoon to use, which knife to use. I just grab whatever I want. I don't follow the rules whatsoever when I'm out to eat
Nick VinZant 53:35
with silverware. Oh, do you put a bib on
John Shull 53:39
if I have to Sure, it's one of those societal things, I think, is complete bullshit. It's the 1% that feel like they have to have a salad fork, they have to have a soup spoon, they have to have a steak knife. Though they're not having steak, they're having chicken. Like, just give me a fork and a knife and maybe a spoon and just get the f out of my way. I'm
Nick VinZant 54:03
not eating at any restaurants where I'm using utensils. To be honest with you, I would say that almost all of the restaurants I eat at only require hands. That's like, it's a burger that can't be burrito. I don't think I can't think of the last restaurant that I went out to eat at. We don't go out to eat very much, to be honest with you, but I can't think of the last restaurant that I went out to eat at where I needed to use silverware. I'm getting a sandwich and fries. Man,
John Shull 54:36
that's interesting. Ah, I mean, I gotta tell you, we actually have a pact for September where we're not going to eat out, because we realized in the month of August how much wasted money we spent, oh yeah, on eating. It's insane.
Nick VinZant 54:51
Without having a sense of smell, which I don't have a sense of smell for people who maybe aren't familiar, food is a total waste of money. I wouldn't. Ever eat out at an expensive restaurant. It means nothing to me. My number three is paying for bags at the grocery store. If I'm in self checkout and I'm doing it, I ain't paying for a bag. I'm not paying for bags when I'm doing the work.
John Shull 55:15
That's another one of those things that is just like, come on. Like grocery stores, like, Why the f do I have to pay 50 cents for an earth safe bag when I'm trying to save the planet? Like, you're not making profit on these? Like, let me be
Nick VinZant 55:33
Oh, that they maybe they're trying to get people to use I mean, I get it. I'm just saying that I'm not paying for it. If I'm doing the work. I'm not paying your eight cents. I don't care how many bags I've got, I'll double bag it. Walk out of there without paying it, stealing 16 cents
John Shull 55:50
since the pandemic, I don't think I've ever, I've I've had anyone bag my groceries. I one of the positives of covid, and I know that sounds stupid, because of everything that happened was all the chain, the major grocery store chains going to like majority self checkout counters. That's awesome.
Nick VinZant 56:11
Tune number two,
John Shull 56:13
I hate saying this. I didn't want to say this out loud, but if I'm an honest person, and if we're going to have an honest top five, and I don't want anyone to judge me out there, but if I'm in a bathroom and there are there's no toilet, you know, there's no Kleenex or whatnot, I will flush disposable wipes down the toilet. And you're not supposed to do that.
Nick VinZant 56:39
Oh, that can cause big problems for people plumbing. I feel like this is a faux pas that you have. I feel like that's, you've gone too far. I feel like you've gone too far, because that can cause big problems for plumbing, and then the bathroom shut down. That can affect a lot of people. That's, I wouldn't do that.
John Shull 56:58
I Yeah, I'm not proud of it. I have done it, and to be honest with you, I will do it again if I have to, but I don't want
Nick VinZant 57:06
to. Why don't you just throw away in the trash?
John Shull 57:10
Makes sense? I guess. I don't know there's a whole thing that go you're, first of all, you're pooping in public. So I don't want people to know that it's a whole thing. I just, you know, it's like, he
Nick VinZant 57:19
knows you're pooping, like, if you come out of the stall, they know that you were pooping. It's like, he's not like a mystery. They they probably want to know that you're pooping and not doing something else in there,
John Shull 57:30
like using those little seat cover things, right? Yeah, I'd probably go seven or eight deep.
Nick VinZant 57:39
Oh yeah, I do that too. Yeah. Okay, good. Oh yeah. I use a ton of Yeah. That's just how you do it. Nobody. I hope
John Shull 57:44
people comment on this, on wherever we have comment available. I want to know how many of those you use. I'm curious.
Nick VinZant 57:51
I don't think that anybody would ever go one seat cover on a toilet. I'm going three to four, at least, if not more,
John Shull 58:00
and you got a little ass. So like, what does that say?
Nick VinZant 58:03
It's muscular. Is what that says. My number two is the fasten your seat belt sign on an airplane, if I've got to go, I'm not paying any attention to that thing, unless the plane is actively bumping up and down, or the Captain has said something about, like, Hey, we're about to hit some turbulence. That is just a suggestion that I'm not paying any attention to. If I got to go to the bathroom, I'm going to the bathroom.
John Shull 58:26
Yeah, I mean, that's just one of those things that you know, it's I always felt it was a little dumb, like, even if you put your seat belt on, does it really matter
Nick VinZant 58:39
what you can wait a couple of minutes. We have a rule that you can't burp or, like, fart in a house unless it's a good one. Then, like, that was a pretty
Unknown Speaker 58:50
good one. Heard it.
Nick VinZant 58:51
What's your number
John Shull 58:53
one? Ah, so it's boring, but it's absolutely true. And I don't I barely obey any kind of pedestrian walking signs.
Nick VinZant 59:04
I live in Seattle, where there's lots of pedestrians. For people who live in like big cities, city cities, not sprawl, cities like Detroit and a lot of Midwestern cities. If you live in a city where people are actively walking like what John said is appalling to you. But if you live in places where people don't usually walk, like where I used to live in Wichita or like Detroit, then it's not usually that big of a deal. But like, Yeah, dude, you're gonna hit somebody one day. Like, people would lose their minds about that.
John Shull 59:36
Excellent, quick examples, I still a lot of times walk with the flow of traffic instead of against it. I don't care about jaywalking. I think that's one of the stupidest things to ever be invented or ticketed for. Like, don't tell me where I can cross the street. Like it's it's dumb to me that that's even a thing. I feel like it's ill timed, like the. Walking mechanisms on traffic lights. They had that stupid button that you can push if you're a pedestrian. Like that never works.
Nick VinZant 1:00:07
Like, God, you're gonna get hit by a car. You know that this is how you're going to die. You're going to be hit by a car because of your behavior. Like,
John Shull 1:00:16
I'm I'm too big of a person. Like, it better be a bus. It's
Nick VinZant 1:00:20
dude. It doesn't matter how big a Geo Metro is gonna kill you.
John Shull 1:00:25
No way, no way, unless
Unknown Speaker 1:00:27
they're going, my God,
John Shull 1:00:31
there's no way, no way. Geo Metro is killing me, unless they're going 100 miles an hour down the
Nick VinZant 1:00:37
street. Okay, what I'm just gonna, let's just go through process of elimination here and break this down. Are you aware of the concept of steel?
Unknown Speaker 1:00:51
Go fuck yourself.
Nick VinZant 1:00:52
But I you so you are familiar with steel. Do you look at your body, which tore the calf off of the bone, ended up in the hospital after picking up a dog poop, tore this calf off the bone while trying to run, which was really just one step, hurt his back and needed to go to the hospital. I believe after picking up a dog poop. Do you think that that body is stronger than steel.
John Shull 1:01:23
First off, I have to give you. Can
Nick VinZant 1:01:25
you answer the question? Can you answer the question, Is your body stronger than steel?
John Shull 1:01:30
I'll answer the question in two seconds. Your memory is fantastic. Well done. No, my body is not stronger than steel.
Nick VinZant 1:01:38
Okay, so now that we have that established. Do you think that your body is then stronger than steel, moving at a certain speed
John Shull 1:01:48
a Geo Metro? Absolutely.
Nick VinZant 1:01:54
Do? I know my number one, yes. I mean, I just can't imagine the kind of thought process that's going on in your head where you're looking at even a Geo Metro. Maybe you could look it up while I go on this rant. What is the weight of a Geo Metro, even you? I'll look. Do you think that your body is stronger than, let's just call it, 1500 pounds of steel moving down the road? This is like people who are against sunscreen because they're like no man, I'm stronger than the sun. What's the weight of a Geo Metro,
John Shull 1:02:30
1600 to 2000 pounds? So do you
Nick VinZant 1:02:33
think that your body is stronger than 1600 to 2000 pounds of steel moving at a decent speed, moving at 20 miles an hour. You ain't living through that, man, you better hope you get hit in the air.
John Shull 1:02:47
Yeah, I'm not saying that I wouldn't get hurt, maybe even critically, but I don't know if getting hit by Geo Metro at 30 miles an hour is going to kill me. Yeah, it is the fatality risk at 30 miles an hour is around 5% but this is misleading, as the rate increases rapidly per mile per hour after that,
Nick VinZant 1:03:16
I would have actually thought that the fatality risk was much higher at a lower mile an hour, but it must be because of the way it, like hits you and knocks you backwards, or you go up on it, like it's not a complete and total hit. But anyway, regardless of this, you are not stronger than steel moving at any mile per hour, like, if you get hit by a car, it's gonna hurt.
John Shull 1:03:40
You know what? Ask all those wrestlers on Saturday how strong I am. They'll tell
Nick VinZant 1:03:44
you, not stronger than steel.
John Shull 1:03:47
What's your number one? Superman?
Nick VinZant 1:03:49
My number one is cleaning my ears with a Q tip. I know you're not supposed to do it, but I love it. I do it every day. I don't care how much they No, you're not supposed to do that at all. It's like a big no, no. You're not supposed to use a Q tip to clean your ears.
John Shull 1:04:04
Okay, I'm sorry. Then, what the f are Q tips even for?
Nick VinZant 1:04:12
Yeah, I have to open cheese right now.
John Shull 1:04:15
Good, but then you can answer my question as to what are Q tips even for? Then, if they're not for your ears,
Nick VinZant 1:04:21
that is a huge mystery. I don't know what anyone would use a Q tip for, other than cleaning your ears, but apparently that's the one thing you're not supposed to do with them.
John Shull 1:04:29
I mean, it legit, makes no sense. Then, then Q tips shouldn't even be around.
Nick VinZant 1:04:33
Well, it's like one of those things that like, that's what everybody uses it for, though. Sorry, man, Dad tax. Do you employ the dad tax something you
John Shull 1:04:42
do, are you going to eat cheese? Maybe you're going to eat cheese. You should go eat cheese.
Nick VinZant 1:04:46
I am going to go eat cheese. All right, let's did you have anything in your interest in your honorable mention, hey, get the grubby hands out of here.
John Shull 1:04:52
Oh, you're getting mobbed. There they are.
Nick VinZant 1:04:57
They can beat me by sheer numbers alone. You. Me absolutely all right, I gotta go do stuff. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I wanna thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out. I would imagine that some of those reviews would be about John's delusion. I mean, like, imagine looking at a car driving down the road and just being like, that's not gonna hurt me. You.