Body Image Researcher Dr. Jaclyn Siegel
When you look at yourself what do you see? The truth or a distorted version of reality subtly influenced by everything around you. Dr. Jacyln Siegel studies the way we view ourselves and how it affects us. We talk body image, muscle dysmorphia, eating disorders, social media filters and her latest research. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Green Things.
Editors Note: Starting around 11:30 there is a discussion on Body Dysmorphia. To clarify and expand on the topic, Body Dysmorphia involves fixating on a specific defect that either does not exist or is minor in nature.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel: 01:33
Pointless: 39:57
Top 5 Green Things: 01:01:40
Interview with Dr. Jaclyn Siegel
Nick VinZant 0:12
Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, body image, and the best green things,
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 0:22
lots of people have a distorted perception of their body. So they might see their body as being larger or smaller or more muscular or less muscular than it actually is. Eating disorders are very, very, very serious conditions. I don't know if people recognize the seriousness of them. I'm troubled by how advancements might affect some of these filters as well. If you can totally change the way you appear online, how are you going to feel about what you actually look like in person,
Nick VinZant 0:49
I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest studies the way that we view ourselves, specifically our body image, the way that media and the things around us can impact how we think about ourselves, and what happens and what we can do when things get out of our control. This is body image researcher, Dr. Jacqueline Siegel. Do people generally see themselves the way the world sees them? Or is our body image thrown off?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 1:41
That's a bit of a complicated question. I don't know if I can say with any certainty about at the population level, but we can say that lots of people have a distorted perception of their body. So they might see their body as being larger or smaller or more muscular or less muscular than it actually is. And we know that when people feel as though their body doesn't meet what they would like for their body to look like or feel like we're be like, we know that that's where some of the complexities and some of the issues around body image can come in. So even if people's bodies do meet what they want their bodies to look like, or what they want their bodies to feel like or be able to do, if they perceive their body isn't like that, if they perceive that their body is discrepant, from the ideal, we know that some people can then unfortunately find themselves in a situation where they're experiencing body dissatisfaction. It varies from person to person. And the types of bodies that people ideal idealize the types of bodies that people want to have or want their bodies to look like, is oftentimes a function of gender and other social norms around bodies. So gender culture, age is also part of it. But as far as, at the population level, do more people have distorted perceptions of their bodies than not, I don't have that precise data. But we know that it is a problem for a lot of people,
Nick VinZant 3:08
I guess, where does it get distorted? Do we do it? Or does society kind of influence us to do it, influence us to do it?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 3:18
So there are various theoretical perspectives that could potentially inform an answer to that I'm a social psychologist, my PhD is in social psychology. So a lot of my research focuses on the social factors that contribute to body image dissatisfaction. And so something that we study a lot is body ideals. So we have ideals in society for what people's bodies are supposed to look like. And we know that those I mean, the most obvious ones are gender based, the most obvious difference between these ideals typically for women, the ideal perpetuated through the media, through social media through editing apps, through the messages that were communicated. The I'm sorry, the messages that are communicated to us from peers parents, partners, they center around this idea of a curvaceous Lea thin ideal. So for people with female bodies. Your waist is supposed to be thin, your breasts are supposed to be large. Your booty supposed to be large, not supposed to have any cellulite. We currently refer to this as the curvaceous Lipan ideal. The thin ideal was really in fashion for women's bodies for a long time, but we see movement towards more accentuated sexualized features more recently. for men and for folks with male bodies we see a mesomorphic or Lee and ideal being perpetuated for men, where it's less about fitness and curves, but more about musculature and being lean and muscular. We know that these ideals also vary, at least in their effect on people by sexual orientation. We know that sexual minority men so gay and bisexual men have this ideal perpetuated potentially differently. And then heterosexual men were for a lot of sexual minority men, leanness. So being thin and muscular is really important for sexual minority men, whereas for heterosexual men, we might just see that musculature but the leanness or the thinness is a bit less important. So body ideals can contribute to the way that we feel about our body. Because the body ideals we have in society generally, are unrealistic and unattainable for most people. If we look to the media, we look to movies, we look to photoshopped pictures on social media, we know that we're either seeing a distorted picture based on photoshopping, or we're seeing people who get paid all day long to be hot, they work out they have personal trainers, they have oftentimes great genetics that put them in a place where their bodies are more likely to look like what is idealized in society. So if we're making upward social comparisons to them, we're potentially going to feel worse about our bodies. And there are all sorts of other reasons as well. We live in a society that really stigmatizes people in fat bodies. We know that we live in a society that really stigmatizes people based on skin tone, and skin blemishes and things of that nature. And so, we have these ideals in society for body image. And if you feel as though you're failing to meet them, or you're receiving information from other people that you're failing to meet them, you might feel worse about your body.
Nick VinZant 6:19
How does it kind of transition from somebody who maybe feels a little bit insecure, so to speak, right? Like, I'll use myself as an example. I'm, I'm chubby, right? Like I'm a little bit chubbier than I probably should be, from a medical perspective, right? Like the doctor has said, you could lose like 10 pounds? How did we distinguish from somebody that maybe is a little bit insecure, maybe needs a little bit of dose of reality to somebody's like, oh, it's venturing into the territory of a problem.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 6:48
Yeah, so something that is a helpful guide, especially when it comes to the behaviors in which you're engaging with your body is whether or not you feel like you have control over it. So if you are engaged in a diet or something, because you think that you want to, like get more nutrients in your body, you want to increase the number of fruits and vegetables you're having compared to some of the other food groups, if you're in control of that, and let's say you go to a birthday party, and there's a cake and you say, well, it's a birthday party, of course, I'm gonna have a piece of cake, this is a normal reaction to have. That might be okay. But if you're in a situation where you go to a birthday party, you've been trying to increase your fruit and vegetable intake or whatever you would have with a party and you say, Well, I can't eat that, because I'm so focused on my health, because I'm so focused on changing the shape of my body, then, you know, you might be venturing into that dangerous territory, because then you might not be in control the thoughts about your body and the thoughts about the way that you look might be in control. And so thinking about, could I stop this, can I turn this off? That's a way to at least as it relates to eating that might be a way to gauge if you're falling into problematic territory. As far as the thoughts surrounding body image, you might ask yourself something like, am I experiencing? And this is sort of clinical language? But am I experiencing distress and impairment related to my body image? So am I experiencing distress about it? Do I feel horrible? Do I think about my body image for more than an hour a day? Are these thoughts about my body intrusive? Do they get in the way of me doing other things that I want to do in my life? When I'm at work? Am I thinking about what my body looks like? Even if no one is around me? That might be problematic? And then the other side of that is impairment? Am I avoiding going out on dates? Because I'm concerned that someone is going to judge my body? Am I avoiding sex? Because I think that my partner might judge my body? That's that impairment piece? And so are you experiencing distress and impairment? If so, you might be falling into these problematic body thoughts?
Nick VinZant 8:53
Is it generally an internal thing in the sense that the person has kind of, I'll use this word, I don't mean this word created these thoughts? Or is it an external thing? Where like, No, I only feel this way, because somebody has said something to me. Like, my mom said something to me when I was little, or my partner or whatever? Is it more internal or kind of external?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 9:15
I think that if we didn't have like media, and people telling us what our bodies are supposed to look like, we probably wouldn't have ideal bodies. So I think that the I don't know if there is an internal response to this. I think a lot of this is external. I think that we receive information from peers, parents, partners, and the media about what bodies are supposed to look like. And whether it's being said to us directly, or we're hearing it around us or seeing it shown to us. I think that we're getting it from external sources a lot of the time, and that's a really social psych perspective on it. I think evolutionary psychologists might say something like, well, the ideal body We see in society reflects a body that is genetically fit. That's oftentimes a, an evolutionary perspective on body image. But as a social psychologist, I tend to stick to the immediate social influences,
Nick VinZant 10:11
is there a way to treat it?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 10:13
So we have treatments that have some degree of effectiveness for these conditions. Treating body image concerns that are not at the clinical level is obviously easier than treating a clinically significant eating disorder or diagnosis of body dysmorphic disorder. If someone shows up into the clinical therapy room, and they say, you know, I feel kind of bummed about my body, I wish I looked a little different, then we could do standard therapy, we could do cognitive behavioral therapy to help people change their thoughts and behaviors around their body. And the person comes in with an eating disorder. Depending on the specific eating disorder that they are presenting with, we might have to engage in nutritional rehabilitation, really altering the behaviors associated with with the condition and so we have various levels of care for eating disorders. For something like body dysmorphic disorder, there are, of course, also therapies, clinical psychologists are constantly studying these topics and trying to find effective treatments for them. But things like exposure therapies can be nerve racking, but potentially helpful. But cognitive behavioral therapy is really what we regard as the gold standard for a lot of these conditions right now.
Nick VinZant 11:29
So I'm not I'm not entirely clear on the difference between body dysmorphia and body image like what's what's, what's the difference?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 11:39
Sure. So are you familiar with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,
Nick VinZant 11:44
only that I have heard those words before? Okay,
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 11:47
so the DSM or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is sort of the handbook for psychological and psychiatric conditions. If you have a diagnosis, typically those diagnoses are listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. And these are clinically significant conditions. So the eating disorders with the feeding and eating disorders are one category of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. And these include things like anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa, binge eating disorder, other specified feeding or eating disorder, avoidant restrictive food intake disorder conditions that are significant. And then within the obsessive compulsive and related disorders, body dysmorphic disorder, and muscle dysmorphia as a subcategory or their own specific conditions, you might have negative body image which exists on a spectrum that doesn't necessarily meet the criteria for one of these clinically significant conditions. So you might be experiencing negative body image that is different than body dysmorphic disorder. And your negative body image might be something like, I feel like I'm too short, and that might be a negative thought that you have about your body. Body Dysmorphic Disorder or body dysmorphia is sort of fixation on a particular body part.
Nick VinZant 13:02
Is this a new thing? And I'm talking about it in the kind of broad circumstances, right? Like all of the things that we have talked about, is this newer, or was this something that like, no people had this in the 1500s, or in 500 BCE, or I
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 13:18
believe that the first two documented cases of eating disorders were in the 1500s. And one was a man and one was a woman. So a lot of people think that men don't get eating disorders. But even the first documented cases of eating disorders were among men and women. We know that men comprise roughly 25 to 33% of eating disorder cases as well. But these have been around for a while dissatisfaction about body and engagement behavior to try to change or alter the size or shape of the body. They've been kicking around for a while. There certainly have been advancements I question mark, I hesitate to use the word advancements, but there have been changes to society that made it so that negative body image is potentially more likely, I mean, just to the emergence of the media. You know, we look, there was a really fascinating study conducted or at least I believe it was published in roughly 2001. Believe Becker, Carolyn Becker is the author of though I'd have to double check that. But she looked at young girl's body image in Fiji prior to the emergence of like Western body ideals through the media. And then she looked at them after And what she found was there was a significant difference, significant, significant worsening in body image among young girls in Fiji after the introduction of Western media, so we know that media and seeing these idealized bodies all around us, and advertisements on our TV on social media all around us all the time can contribute to feeling negatively about your body. So they've only been around for a while. I think it's possible that we're seeing increased levels of body image dissatisfaction right now.
Nick VinZant 14:57
Is it still increasing because it seems like in the last couple of years, whatever, I, you know, it's been, okay, this is my body and now models that used to fit this one exact characteristic. Now there's all kinds of different body types, is that working? Or has that like had no effects? I see it both ways in the sense that we've made steps to accommodate or to accept all bodies for lack of better phrases. But at the same time, like we're still pretty judgmental about everything.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 15:27
The short answer is I'm not sure. The long answer is that it is true that in social media and in I mean, even in the runways and on TV, we're seeing a, we're seeing a wider diversity of bodies being represented. We do also know that those bodies when they don't meet this, then lean, muscular, whatever ideal are oftentimes subjected to relentless criticism in the media, on social media, if you ever read the comments section, for a woman who is plus sized to post a photo of herself, oftentimes, folks are met with stigma and shame, again, because of this immense fat phobia that we have in society that has not changed. While we are still seeing a little bit of flexibility, you know, you might see a woman who's a size zero, as well, as a woman who's like a size eight, maybe you'll see women in that range, we're not really seeing a lot of acceptance beyond sort of standard or straight sizes, especially for women. And I would actually argue that it's potentially even getting worse for men, as this lean and muscular ideal continues to be perpetuated. And I would, you know, I I'm particularly sensitive to men's struggles, I direct an eating disorder prevention program for men. And I, I think that men don't have, as much of men don't have as many opportunities to talk about body image, men oftentimes, don't see the behaviors in which they are engaged to change the shape of their body as being problematic or troubling, and other men and women oftentimes encourage those behaviors and men, so many men are sort of struggling in silence, because they dislike their bodies, but there's no real avenue for discussing, or no real outlet for discussing their body image related concerns. So while these men might be having these thoughts, these negative thoughts about their bodies, or feeling like their body is too small or not sufficiently muscular they might be having these thoughts, many hours of the day, who is telling them that, hey, you're experiencing distress and impairment, it might be time to get help. Not many people, and not many men are going to seek out help on their own. If they don't see it as a problem. We already know that men are less likely to seek help, particularly for mental health conditions compared to women. So I really feel for men as it relates to body image.
Nick VinZant 17:50
are they struggling? Again, give me some leeway kind of with the terms and things like that? are they struggling at the same level? Because when I have always thought about is like, Okay, well, this is something that happens to women, and some men get it as well. But are men? Is it? Is it the same type of level? Or is it just kind of No, really, men actually get this a lot too.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 18:12
It depends on the person I, I again, I don't have population level statistics. But when men experience eating disorders, or muscle dysmorphia, it can be as intense and severe as women's experiences of of eating disorders as well.
Nick VinZant 18:29
Is there certain does it mainly affect certain age groups, either in men or women? Or is it kind of across the lifetime?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 18:36
A lot of research on eating disorders is limited by stereotypes that we have about the conditions. So we refer to this stereotype as the swag stereotype. And when we think about people with eating disorders, we think about skinny white affluent girls swag. And that means that a lot of the research attention has been focused on young white women who are relatively affluent experiences of eating disorders. Eating disorders do affect people across the age, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status spectrum, anyone who's potentially susceptible to them, we have more research on young women's experiences, but that doesn't necessarily mean that other people are not experienced, experiencing them as well. We just don't see as much research on them.
Nick VinZant 19:23
How does this I know we've kind of talked about it, but how does this generally like affect people in their, in their lives?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 19:31
Badly? So a lot of I laugh for fun. No,
Nick VinZant 19:36
I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Well,
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 19:39
just an additional caveat is that I'm in recovery from anorexia. I was in treatment for anorexia when I was 21. I spent 10 weeks in the treatment center. I know what it's like to have an eating disorder. And now I do this research. So recovery is possible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but a lot of my research now focuses on how having an eating disorder affects everyday experiences. So everyday social experiences. So I've published research on how eating disorders affect people's experiences of being at work, and how it affects how the workplace also affects people's experiences of eating disorders and how this has the potential to affect people's experiences in their jobs, their productivity, as well as how people maintain their eating disorder recovery in their workplaces. I've looked at this unlimited demand. And then also, a lot of my research right now is focused on romantic relationships for folks with eating disorders. And what we see is that if an eating disorder is active, meaning that treatment either is not being pursued, or this treatment experience is not effective, people oftentimes really struggle in their workplaces, in their relationships, because I mean, for a variety of different reasons, some of which are health related, oftentimes, people with eating disorders, face health consequences, but also, eating disorders sock, they're very cognitively taxing. And if you are having these thoughts about your body, about your eating, potentially up to like 85% of the day, it's going to be really difficult to focus on your work. And if you are in a relationship, and you have an eating disorder, there are lots of experiences in romantic relationships, that will then be very challenging for you. So in my research, some of the various stressors that we have identified as going out to eat, how many times is your first date with someone, let's get dinner, let's get drinks. For folks for whom food eating and your body is the most distressing thing that's gonna be very difficult for you focus on that experience. The same is true of sex. If you feel extremely uncomfortable about what your body looks like, even under clothes, how are you possibly going to feel comfortable and open to sexual experiences, we'd see a lot of sexual dysfunction and sexually dysfunctional attitudes among folks with eating disorders. Others include things like going on vacation. You know, if you're going to the beach with your partner, and you feel dissatisfied about your body, you might feel as though you have to hide your body for some reason. And there are various various others. We know that the ways that couples work through these stressors can make it so that people can feel more comfortable in their bodies make it so that people feel comfortable and safe to show their body and share their experiences with their partner. But it's complicated. It's a very, it's a very difficult process and trusting someone so much and enough that you feel comfortable disclosing to them that you have an eating disorder and sharing your treatment with them. So that takes a lot of trust, because eating disorders are also really stigmatized. And people might be afraid that their partners won't accept them if they learned that they are recovering from an eating disorder. So eating disorders really have a significant impact on lots of areas of life, because of the detrimental social, interpersonal and health consequences of them.
Nick VinZant 22:58
It sounds terrible. Like no matter what you're doing, that's the only thing that you can think about. Right? Like you can't enjoy any aspect of life because all you're thinking about is like, what what do I look like? Kind of this kind of? Yes. Do it is to society, care in the sense that like, right, or is it one of those things where like, you tell somebody that like, Hey, I'm struggling with this? Do people seem reactive to it? Are they kind of like, oh, yeah, okay. All right.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 23:30
Um, I think that's a complicated question. I think that eating disorders are oftentimes trivialized people think that eating disorders are controllable that you could just stop at any point. This is one of the primary stigmas attributed to people with eating disorders is that they're just doing it for attention, or they're vain, or they they should be able to control it. But one of the primary elements, having an eating disorder is feeling like it's out of control, or out of your control. I think that in particular men's body image concerns are trivialized. I think that especially people who are not thin, when they experience dissatisfaction about their body, sometimes people regard that as being like, good or appropriate. We, again, do I know we've talked about this, but the amount of fat shame we have in society is really appalling. And so we, as psychologists, we don't want anyone to feel shame, dissatisfaction, or discomfort in their bodies. Everyone deserves to feel good in their bodies. But when people who are not thin say that they feel dissatisfied with their bodies, oftentimes people will say we'll just lose weight. That's not the answer to body dissatisfaction. The answer to body dissatisfaction is learning to feel comfortable in your skin regardless of the weight that you're in. And so, um There's mixed societal reactions. Some people recognize the seriousness of eating disorders. But I would say most people don't. Anorexia nervosa is one of the core eating disorders, and it has the second highest mortality rate of any psychiatric condition, second only to opioid use disorder. And there are two reasons why anorexia is has the potential to be deadly. The first of which is the health complications that come from malnutrition, if you are restricting what you eat, if you are denying the severity of being at a low weight, you're probably not thinking too much about like, Hey, am I nourishing my body enough to live. So we see health complications, and specifically cardiac complications for folks with anorexia, but we also see elevated suicidality. And so eating disorders are very, very, very serious conditions. I don't know if people recognize the seriousness of them. I will say that I think that our health care system also really fails people with eating disorders. It's very difficult and expensive to go to eating disorder treatment. And even our most effective treatments that we have for eating disorders are generally only effective for roughly 50% of the population. And so I think that it's possible that people care, but we don't yet. We haven't yet figured out exactly how to help everyone. And so it is complicated. I think there are layers to it. Yeah, I will say, though, Biden just signed a bill, I believe, to support eating disorders, research and treatment. So there seems to be structural support for treating eating disorders.
Nick VinZant 26:46
Are you ready for some listener submitted questions? Sure. Do you ever see this really changing?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 26:56
Oh, that is direct. I have hope. I will say, I have hope for things getting better. I have hoped for our treatments being more effective. I have hope for mental health resources becoming easier to access. I have hope that people who are who might not otherwise seek out treatment might see the benefits of getting help. I'm hopeful for these things. Right now? I don't see much. Well, first thing I'll say is that there are activists doing unbelievable work. There are fat activists, there are specifically black women doing unbelievable work to try to promote. Like radical, radical body acceptance, Sonia, Rene Taylor comes to mind immediately there are people doing great work to create a society that is accepting of people of all bodies, and their work should not be minimized the work that they're doing is unbelievable. That said, within the broader society, there are a lot of trends happening right now that are troubling. I mean, two things that come to mind immediately are tick tock filters, you know, image editing in, yeah, image editing, on social media, that is becoming more and more prevalent. And then I don't know if folks are familiar this, but this ozempic craze where people are going out and getting diabetes medication and injecting it in themselves in the hopes that it will help them lose weight. This is an epic, I mean, I don't use epidemic epidemic has a very specific, very specific meaning. But this is happening more and more where people are either getting prescribed ozempic People are or other medications like it, but people are going to their doctors and trying to get this quote unquote, Miracle weight loss drug that's actually diabetes medication. And the cultural conversations around it are very, very troubling. And when you said earlier, we're seeing more bodies represented are things getting better. The ozempic craze comes to mind immediately. Because I think that CES this is a reflection of attitudes that people have had for a while that the thin, courageously thin, lean, whatever ideal continues to be perpetuated. And if people think that it's attainable, they will go to great lengths to do it. So there are things happening in society right now that dampen my enthusiasm and dampen my hope. But that said, the work that is being done the very hard hard, unbelievable, brilliant work being done. does give me hope when I speak with activists and things but it's not great out there right now.
Nick VinZant 30:04
It does definitely seem like we say one thing and then we we do another right, like all bodies are accepted. You should change, right? Like it seems that imbalance that's that was another one of our question is what do you think about filters?
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 30:19
I think that we have research to suggest that viewing idealized viewing photos of idealized bodies has a negative impact on people's body image. If you are making upward social comparisons, and I've used that language before, but it's a social psych term, meaning you are looking at something or you're comparing yourself to someone who you perceive to be better than you, you will feel worse about yourself. So if you're looking at someone, and I don't mean to say this in objectifying terms, but just for simplicity's sake, you're looking at someone and you think their body is like a tent, you think it meets the ideal, and you see yourself as like a sixth, well, then you're gonna feel shitty, because you're making that upward social comparison with them. And you're gonna say, Why am I not a 10? You know, so, if you're looking at other people's idealized bodies, you'll feel bad about yourself. If you're looking at your own idealized body. Not only are there potentially negative consequences for how you see yourself, but then other people, if you post those photos are seeing an idealized version of you, which then could potentially also make them feel bad. So I'm not a big supporter of the filters. Truthfully, I do worry about what they are doing for individual body image as well as sort of societal body image. But yeah, I guess I'll stop there.
Nick VinZant 31:38
I know nothing about this. But I've seen some of the most recent tick tock filters and I immediately thought, Oh, that's a bad idea for all of us. Like, oh, that's yeah, ad for any book for self confidence like that. i That's not what I look like, then you feel like you have to look like that all the time. I hope that goes away.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 32:00
I will be very interested to see how social media continues to advance and I think AI I mean, I I hesitate to you to use the term AI because people who actually know what AI is will probably be like, but that woman doesn't know anything about
Nick VinZant 32:14
Yeah, will give you will give you anyway. Yeah.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 32:18
I'm troubled by how advancements might affect some of these filters as well. If you can totally change the way you appear online. How are you going to feel about what you actually look like in person? I don't know. You can
Nick VinZant 32:31
say it or fought. Like, this is gonna give bad this is gonna give bad? I Yeah. Yeah, hopefully. Well, we got to fit Yeah, I think everybody knows that. We can leave that one there. Um, there's not like usually we get some lighter hearted ones, but it's not like it's okay. How would you how has? How is pornography affected people's bodies image people's body? I've used an extra possessive in there somewhere I'm not sure.
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 33:03
So, um, so I teach psychology of human sexual behavior at San Diego State and I teach about body image and sexuality. So the there is a long and short answer as as usual. So if you look across the body of research the corpus of research looking at pornography and body image, you'll see mixed results. A recent systematic review was just published within the last few years that showed that exposure to pornography is associated with poor body image and across studies and so while there's variability in these findings, we know that the more consistent thread is that pornography is associated with negative body image. There's also research to suggest that women who believe that their partner's watch more porn are more likely to demonstrate eating disorder symptoms. And there are lots of reasons why people might feel bad about their bodies when they watch porn when they watch more porn in particular. While there is a wide variety of different types of porn mainstream pornography largely features very specific idealized bodies. I don't really have to describe what they are but curvaceous Lee thin, ideal and muscular, you know, lean ideal, but also we see people oftentimes also report what was the one thing of dissatisfaction with sexual functioning after watching porn as well? And this oftentimes has to do with this weird spectacle of pornography, we see penises that are much larger than people's penises actually, are people report genital image dissatisfaction after watching pornography, we see also just like spectacles, things happening in porn that don't actually happen in people's sexual experiences. So there's lots of debate around porn for a lot of different reasons politically, socially, as far as body image as far as relationships are concerned. The research seems to lend itself to the belief that porn is a good tool for masturbation porn has the potential to teach people poor scripts about what sex is supposed to look like, and has the potential to give people a false impression of what naked bodies and sexy bodies are supposed to look like. So porn is not necessarily a universal bad, but it doesn't seem to do wonders for body image.
Nick VinZant 35:17
Do men know what they're supposed to look like? Now? The Super body, you see on the cover of Men's Fitness, and then you see the dad bod. And it's like, well, which 1am I supposed to be? Because
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 35:31
I think that it's a question that a lot of people think. But I encourage listeners to reframe this question. Who are you having a body for? Are you having your body for other people to look at? Is your body something for other people to gaze at? Or do you have a body to be lived in and enjoy it and to experience pleasure and to experience, you know, the joys of doing fun exercise and fun activities and hugging the people you love. Your body is not an ornament for other people to view your body is supposed to be lived in, it's a tool for doing other things you want to do. So I encourage everyone to get away from language of what my body should look like and think more about what do I want my body to have the capacity to do. So for me, I want my body to have the capacity to hug my unbelievably amazing partner, I love him so much. And I love that my body has the functionality to do that. I love that my body allows me to hike, and my body loves me to climb mountains, that's something that I love. But if I fixate on what I think my body is supposed to look like to other people, then I'll probably always feel dissatisfied. But if I start functioning, if I start focusing on my body's functionality rather than its appearance, then I can start feeling better about my body. So I encourage the the asker to reflect on for whom you have a body. And if it's not you, that might be worth doing a little soul searching a little digging inside yourself to try to find out why you think your body should look a certain way for other people, instead of why your body should be lived in by you.
Nick VinZant 37:13
That makes a lot of sense. Like I don't like the way that I look right now. But I more for me. Right? Like I could I could do a little bit better. Like I could fix that for myself not for necessarily for anybody else. Um, is there anything you think that we missed or any like, oh, we should talk about this,
Dr. Jaclyn Siegel 37:32
I will just say that there are ways to improve body image there. You don't have to live dissatisfied with your body. If you are feeling dissatisfied with your body talking to a therapist can be really helpful. But some other strategies that we know from the literature can be helpful, include things like spending more time in nature, if you are doing things with your body, instead of thinking about your body looks like then you have the potential to increase and elevate your body image. Similarly, focusing on functionality over Appearance empirically, we know that people who have higher body functionality appreciation are less likely to have body image dissatisfaction. I'm trying to think of some others Oh, being more self compassionate with yourself. This is some of my research, I probably should have remembered. But if you take a more self compassionate self perspective, you recognize that everyone goes through hardships, you practice self kindness that can potentially help you with some of these negative feelings you might experience about your body. Really just trying to think of some others that come off the top of my head, oh, and then think about the media that you are engaging with. If you go on your Instagram, and every time you grow off of it, you feel awful about your body image, maybe think about the images that you're exposing yourself to maybe think about the content in which you are engaging and how you're engaging with it. You don't have to follow influencers that make you feel like shit about your body. You can follow whoever you want. And so sometimes a social media cleanse can be great for improving body image. But I think what I really want to stress is that regardless of your gender, regardless of your race, regardless of your sexual orientation, if you are experiencing body image dissatisfaction that results or disrupt that results in distress or impairment in your life, getting help is a great idea. There are lots of people who specialize in this, there are lots of options available. A lot of therapists offer sliding scales. There's also lots of great resources online. But you don't have to live your whole life hating your body. And as someone who has recovered from an eating disorder, I promise you life is much better when you don't spend 85% of your day, wishing that your body looked a different way.
Nick VinZant 39:38
I want to thank Dr. Siegel so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, tick tock, Instagram and YouTube. And we have also included her information as well as some helpful links in the episode description. Okay, now let's bring in Joe On show and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you feel like people see you how you actually are?
John Shull 40:07
Now? Now? I do. Yeah, maybe anytime before 10 years ago, I would have said no, but not now people people can see me I were a pretty, where my emotions and my personality kind of out there now I did. I never used to do that as a younger person.
Nick VinZant 40:23
I've always generally been a little surprised at what people thought of me. It wasn't always what I expected. My question has always been, which one of those is actually the truth, the way that you see yourself or the way that other people see you like, which is really a more accurate representation of who you are as a person.
John Shull 40:47
This actually kind of plays into what I want to know about how you had the manliest weekend ever,
Nick VinZant 40:52
easily, easily. the manliest weekend that I have ever had in my life was on Saturday, I woke up, hungover. I then went to the gym, and I did bench. I then came home, played sports with my kids. My wife and I had an intimate rendezvous. I watch sports. I bet on sports. I then went outside and chop down a tree with an axe. Split law split bricks, fucking bricks, like I split split stone for the patio. Then I fixed the disposal. Then I got drunk on Saturday night. The only way that my weekend could have been manlier is if I would have liked fixed part have done something with the car. Oh, and I was by a fire. I was by a fire. Which I started. It's a Propane Fire but I still technically started the fire. I don't know how I could have had a more mainly day.
John Shull 41:57
I mean, that's that's a full day. That's a that's a lot a lot to pack. No, no wonder your testosterone was flowing. Flowing.
Nick VinZant 42:04
What What would you consider to have my weekend? What part of that would you say was the manliest part of it?
John Shull 42:09
Probably, you know, the brick thing seems pretty impressive to me.
Nick VinZant 42:14
It's actually have you ever had to split Stone? No. It's actually a lot easier than you would think. Do you you actually don't hit it very hard. It's just a series of light taps. Little tap a tap a little taps. I would say the probably the manliest thing was the chopping down of the tree with an axe.
John Shull 42:32
Because why would having an intimate relation with your wife rank up there? Hmm. You were crying, weren't you?
Nick VinZant 42:40
Well, I mean, I like to be held afterwards and there wasn't as much time for that as I would like. So that was probably the least Manley's part of my day.
John Shull 42:50
Well, I have nothing. I mean, my weekend was not like that. So um, sounds fantastic. All right, let's give us some shout outs now, shall we? And surprisingly enough, it just must have been the episode but all of my shout outs are to men. They're all male shout outs this episode. I don't think I've ever had a shout outs in our illustrious career where it's been all one sex before.
Nick VinZant 43:14
Our listeners, it's actually pretty close to half and half men and women so I feel like this is pure laziness or bias on your part.
John Shull 43:23
Well, I'm gonna say neither. And I'm just gonna go into it because that was semi rude. All right, Joseph Lopez, appreciate you. Miles Edwards Zack tower. Cory Ballenger in Korea spelled K O R I. But the profile picture I you know, it's gonna stay with with a being a being a boy here at Alejandro.
Nick VinZant 43:49
Do you think that what was the first person's name?
John Shull 43:54
Joseph Lopez.
Nick VinZant 43:56
Do you think people call him JLo?
John Shull 43:59
Whatever it go. I have no idea. You think so?
Nick VinZant 44:06
Oh, 100% I'm 100% sure he fucking hates it.
John Shull 44:09
Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna Yeah, I haven't. Yeah, yep. Alejandro Marquez, Jeremiah Clark, Ryan DeCaro. Ryan Jackson, Angelo, Gabriel. And Drew Miller. You all get the shout outs this week.
Nick VinZant 44:28
I have some poll results. So we put up a poll on our YouTube channel about how many people know someone who is not related but has the same last names? No way. Okay. How many people know two people or more with the same last name that are not related. 90% of people do. 90% of people said they knew someone like to Thomas's or to Smith's I thought it'd be much lower than that.
John Shull 44:57
No, I don't. It does. Not surprised me as I mean, I think I went through three or four names and you can you couldn't even come up with one. So
Nick VinZant 45:06
the only one I could eventually come up with was knowing to Thomas's. Then I realized that I made the other one up. I didn't actually know Logan. Logan Thomas was a player for the Arizona Cardinals who, slightly shamefully I actually think that my son's name is Logan Thomas Van Zandt, but it's not, it's not his middle name. And I get his own middle name wrong because of Logan Thomas, the football player. I couldn't even tell you right now his middle name is
John Shull 45:32
your own son.
Nick VinZant 45:34
I get confused as to which one it is. Either Joseph or Marcus. I get confused. I have to go ask my wife.
John Shull 45:41
Wow. Okay. I mean, listen, I'm not gonna judge but I'm kind of judging you right now.
Nick VinZant 45:46
Do you? Okay, how many of your cousin's middle names? Do you know? Do you know your any of your cousin's middle names?
John Shull 45:54
No, no, I can't off the top of my head.
Nick VinZant 45:58
I'm gonna go ahead and say that, you know, 1% of people's middles names.
John Shull 46:07
1%. I mean, no, I think you know, maybe, I wouldn't say it's more than 15. But I think you're in that. I think you're in that ballpark?
Nick VinZant 46:16
Of the all the people you know, you think you know, 15% of their middle names.
John Shull 46:21
Can we can we keep it to like close friends and family? I mean, out of all the people I know. I mean, you know, a lot of people.
Nick VinZant 46:27
Okay, let's just do even people you talk to on a yearly basis? I still think it's 1%.
John Shull 46:35
I'll go 6% I think
Nick VinZant 46:39
I think it's pretty low. I could go with the most 5% I know my wife's middle name. One of my sons. My dad's and yours, only because it's Euclid. Which is I'm not
John Shull 46:54
sure I know. You I what am I good friends name Nick. His middle name. John, your middle name is not John,
Nick VinZant 47:04
is not. You want to start a new segment called guess my middle name. Let's start a brunette start and weekly segment where you try to guess my middle name. We're going to start this on 320 on March 29 2023. And we'll see how long it takes John to guess my middle name. Why I think it might take I think it might take two years. No. Why? Why? Because it's not a common middle name. It's not a name that I would make an argument. It's not a name that most people even heard of. It's not an uncommon name, but a not a name that people have heard.
John Shull 47:42
Well, then that throws my first guess out the window. But you know what, I'll get this letter out of the way. Okay. I was going to say, Christopher.
Nick VinZant 47:52
No, that is that is the right letter though to start. Wait.
John Shull 47:57
I know it. cashmere. Nope. No.
Nick VinZant 48:01
That was it. That was your one guess that's actually that's your only? Yes. Well, I think it might take you two years to get it.
John Shull 48:09
I have the right letter that I got it out of the way. So I've obviously heard it at some point.
Nick VinZant 48:14
There's a lot to see names though. Okay. All right. We can? Is it? Is it illegal to take bets? How long will it take you to guess my middle name?
John Shull 48:25
Go to social media and put some money down? And when I'll guess it? Okay. All right, let's see. What is more useless to you? Or has become more useless to you, eBay? or Amazon?
Nick VinZant 48:42
I've never used eBay my entire life. Never use it once.
John Shull 48:48
Now see, that's an interest. I would be interesting to see the results in that poll question. Like how many people have never been used yet or haven't used eBay? Because I feel like at least once again, in my inner circle. Everyone's used to eBay. It just like a commonplace thing.
Nick VinZant 49:03
But you're collecting and selling weird shit. Action Figure collections and baseball cards and
John Shull 49:11
yeah, but I mean, I mean, I have also looked my mother has bought so soap off eBay before like, you know,
Nick VinZant 49:21
she bought soap off and that's something I'm not buying off of eBay is soap.
John Shull 49:26
Yeah, I don't know if it was some soap that they used to sell in stores. And then it got discontinued in stores or something or discontinued in its entirety. So she would buy it on eBay in like packs of 50.
Nick VinZant 49:40
What kind of so visit it's a good so
John Shull 49:43
I I remember the name of it. I don't remember what it's what I don't remember. It's called K or K like C A M A Y.
Nick VinZant 49:53
Can Is there a reason you can share why she liked that particular soap?
John Shull 49:58
I don't know. It's just one of those things. I remember from my In childhood we always had to have you know, the soap in the in the shower. I don't know why she liked it, but she liked it.
Nick VinZant 50:07
Is it bar soap? Or like it's more than like you squirt it out of the bottle? So?
John Shull 50:12
Yeah, it's definitely bar soap and it was like a tan pinkish if I remember right.
Nick VinZant 50:18
So are you a bar soap man or a bottle soap man?
John Shull 50:23
Um, I guess bottle? I mean, I haven't had a bar in years.
Nick VinZant 50:28
Hmm. Do you use a washcloth? I find it very weird. When people use wash cloths, I don't understand wash cloths at all.
John Shull 50:36
It's so funny. You asked me that. I think I use a loofa.
Nick VinZant 50:40
I understand the LUFA Least of all. Because the washcloth you're just wiping the other day's dirt around on you unless you're using a new washcloth every time but at least you can wash the washcloth if you're using a loofa you've had like dirt built up on that sucker for months or more that you're just wiping around on you again.
John Shull 51:03
No, I mean, you wash the LUFA. After you're done, you know, you rinse it off. It's not like you're just putting it back. I just really,
Nick VinZant 51:11
you're not really washing it right? Like you're doing the equivalent of like, I'm gonna wash my hands and you stick them underwater for five seconds and call it good. You're not really washing the thing. You're just scrubbing yourself with your own dirt.
John Shull 51:24
I love my loofa All right, it's you can scrub it, you can get nice and deep in there and and make sure you feel refreshed and your skin feels good.
Nick VinZant 51:33
Okay, is it the LUFA that you're just holding? Or is it a loofa attached to like a stick of a stick? LUFA and get you back?
John Shull 51:43
I'm ashamed to admit this. I've two kinds of loofahs.
Nick VinZant 51:48
You have two kinds of louvers in the shower,
John Shull 51:51
I do. I have this, I have the stick kind and then I have like the little you know, the one that you hold in your hand and you can, you know get in certain areas that are easier to get than the one that's attached to this.
Nick VinZant 52:03
Okay, but you which one did you start with? And then thought to yourself, which one did you start with? And then think to yourself, you know what? I need a different loofa I need more coverage? Which one did you start with? And which one was this secondary purchase?
John Shull 52:22
The smaller one first. And then when I realized I wanted to get to some areas on my back that I couldn't reach with my hands. I bought the stick one.
Nick VinZant 52:32
Okay, that, to me seems like it would be the more logical progression. You wouldn't start with the stick one and then go to the other one. Okay, so
John Shull 52:43
I just hope that everyone out there appreciates a loofa
Nick VinZant 52:48
I used to I used to be a loofah man, but I drifted away from it. And I don't really know when it happened just one day I stopped using loofahs. But I would say that there's probably spots on my back that haven't really been cleaned in years.
John Shull 53:02
It's kinda like house. how some people love the days, right? Like, I feel like a loofa as you either love it. You hate it or you just don't know about it. If you don't know about it, you need to you need to go get a loofa
Nick VinZant 53:18
yeah, I've gotten through LUFA phases. I'm not currently in a LUFA phase.
John Shull 53:23
Let's see, the next thing I had here isn't really so much of a question as well as a question but it's not like either or here but so I bought a I went cheap on my my shaver, my razor blade, and I went cheap and I'm fucking regretting it now. So I guess my question to you is do you go cheap on on shit, you know, shaving yourself.
Nick VinZant 53:50
I don't mind going cheap on razor blades only because that's going to grow back. Right? Like if I'm pulling off some layers of skin. I know I got a good shave. So I'm okay with cheap razor blades. You draw a little blood that's how it's supposed to be done. There's two things that I've long said that if you're not bleeding after you do it, you're not really doing it right. One is weed whacking two is shaving. You've got to draw blood at least once a week or you're not doing it right.
John Shull 54:20
I just thought to myself the other day that I'm going to start wearing jeans when I when I do yard work this summer because I don't want to nick the shit out of my ankles and legs the sheer with a weed whack. We record a string
Nick VinZant 54:34
that's not worthy of being laughed at at all. It hurts. Go out there and shorts like a man. Right? You're over here by in jeans to cover to cover up your little legs. I'm out there with an axe, chopping down trees and satisfying my wife. What are you doing? I gotta put on jeans before I go outside.
John Shull 54:57
I mean, I gotta you You shaved me I got done. There are, there's very few that are listening at this moment that are going yeah. My last weekend I did something more manlier than that, because they didn't
Nick VinZant 55:09
write you can't write like this is the only time I can ever make a manly argument for myself is after this weekend all the other weekend to be like, What did you do? Well,
John Shull 55:18
so, so I'm pretty excited. So our social media poll this week, I kind of set it up on purpose, knowing that people want to pick what the winner was, which we'll get to in a second. Let's see. So the choices were the happiest country, or excuse me in the world was announced, again, Finland, one for like, the 14th year in a row. I don't know what makes Finland the happiest place on earth, but apparently keeps getting voted that.
Nick VinZant 55:46
But I just have a hard time believing that because it's so cold. Like, it gets pretty cold and Finland.
John Shull 55:53
And like who is like taking these polls, like?
Nick VinZant 55:59
I don't think it's going to I think it's what I think it's a research study where they're looking at certain metrics and saying, Okay, you have this much health care, you have this much wages, you have that stuff, and we've just decided that you're the happiest country on Earth, which is why I don't really necessarily feel that way. Right? I mean, maybe you should be the happiest or you could be potentially the happiest, but I don't know, I think you'd have to be in a warmer place. Personally. It seems like well, why you should actually win.
John Shull 56:28
Hawaii would be fun to go to state and live shot. Okay, Cage. Let's see, the scientists made the first 3d printed food recently is a 3d printed cheesecake that I'm sure tasted like, paper and absolute garbage.
Nick VinZant 56:47
Doesn't still need food to make foods. Like are we saving food by making? I don't really understand that.
John Shull 56:55
Yeah, I don't know. Right? Because I don't I don't think anyone's going to eat it. But hey, what do I know? Um, and then I wouldn't 5050 on on the third choice that I had in there a teen that biked 20,000 miles after telling his parents he'd be right back the next thing, they knew he was 20,000 miles away. Or the Final Four, because they
Nick VinZant 57:20
think they're checking up on their child very well. The next thing they knew he was 20,000 miles away. It's not like I actually called him at eight and then talk to him again at seven. It's actually
John Shull 57:29
kind of an incredible story really. And then the final four which you know, is it's it's if you're a basketball fan, it's been an insane tournament. If you had money on any of the big dogs you're pissed off in or not watching it. But hey, I'm putting my money behind Florida Atlantic. Let's have a number nine seed win. Why not?
Nick VinZant 57:49
Cool. Who else is in the tournament?
John Shull 57:53
See, so it's them San Diego State Miami of Florida. And UConn.
Nick VinZant 58:01
I basically stopped watching all big events. I didn't watch the Superbowl I didn't really watch March Madness. I don't watch the Oscars, the Grammys, the Tonys, any kind of big event that's happening on television. I just don't watch it. The last thing was the last season of Game the end of Game of Thrones. It was the last like big event that was happening at the same time that I was like, Okay, I'll watch that too. Same time.
John Shull 58:25
You should watch The Last of Us. You'd love that show.
Nick VinZant 58:27
Too scary. I can't handle it. Too scary, man.
John Shull 58:31
Well, I forgot you are your seven. But hey, you know what? One no candle the candle of the month?
Nick VinZant 58:40
Well, it's not candle of the month this episode comes out on the 29th. And we already did a candle for Monday, March. So next week?
John Shull 58:49
I totally know. Well, I totally got so excited. Oh, fuck. Okay, well, I guess I'd have to wait till next episode. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 58:58
I saw that too. I actually saw the poll that you put up and thought to myself, he doesn't realize that candle of the month is next week. And your sole focus on this show is now just candle of the month. That's the only so
John Shull 59:11
excited about. I'm like, I mean, I'm doing research on candles. I'm getting having. I mean, I'm probably having now. I don't know, a dozen candles a month delivered to my house.
Nick VinZant 59:24
How many were you getting before though? This is for your addiction? Isn't it? Is this fueling your addiction?
John Shull 59:31
I mean, what did I say? I probably have said I mean it was probably no more than four or five. I mean, and you know,
Nick VinZant 59:40
use some money increase your candle consumption three times. You went from four candles at
John Shull 59:46
well, at least because because there will be some months where I'm sure it wasn't more than like, you know, one or two then some months I probably skipped it. But now I feel like like I have to you know, I'm invested in Canada. Have a month.
Nick VinZant 1:00:00
I feel like you've put more effort into candle in the month than anything else. Second to possibly your children. Maybe even more than your children.
John Shull 1:00:11
I can feel the aura I can feel the energy from our listeners and our viewers. They love candle the month.
Nick VinZant 1:00:17
I think that you're feeding an addiction to buying candles and okay, I mean, I support the research, right? I support the research and we just got to make sure this doesn't become a problem when you're buying $150 with the candles every month, right?
John Shull 1:00:33
I thought fucking March was over Tuesday. So that's that's where my mind is.
Nick VinZant 1:00:38
March feels like it's one of those months. That's over in the middle of it. Like once we pass St. Patrick's Day March should just be over. Yeah. We should go from March 17 to April 1.
John Shull 1:00:53
I can't believe it's already April though, pretty much like holy hell, man.
Nick VinZant 1:00:57
Yeah, do days or days or long years are short. Okay. Are you ready for it's about five then?
John Shull 1:01:03
Yeah, I guess so. It seems I don't know how many days are in a month?
Nick VinZant 1:01:07
Well, it depends. It's anywhere between 28 and 31 Depending on the month. There's a trick like with your knuckles that you can figure out where like the knuckle I can never remember though if it's the knuckle or in between the knuckles that is 31. But you go like January's and knuckle. It's got 31 and February is in the middle doesn't have 31 Then the next knuckle is 31. April. Then may has 31. June has doesn't have it. Yeah. You start with the knuckle and you go January, February, March, April, May and every time you hit a knuckle it's the 31st. So our top five is top five green things. Sure. Number five.
John Shull 1:01:46
So this is a tie. It's two logos. So the Heineken logo and the Starbucks logo.
Nick VinZant 1:01:55
Okay, both are very recognizable from being where I am in the country. I would say John Deere logo can also make a run for a very recognizable green thing. More than Heineken. In the Midwest, where I'm from, I would say it's probably Starbucks and John Deere.
John Shull 1:02:16
Which you would never think go together but everything's beer is together. Do you think Heineken and John Deere would go together but ya know, Heineken, obviously. I mean, it's huge around the world and Starbucks as well. So yeah, that's why they're, they share the top five spot for me.
Nick VinZant 1:02:35
My number five is the Hulk.
John Shull 1:02:38
Okay, okay, I I surprisingly enough, I have a couple of like characters on my honorable mention, but I have none on in my top five.
Nick VinZant 1:02:48
I thought about putting Yoda at number five over the Hulk. But I don't feel like Yoda although he's a very impactful character has not had as much development. Like there's not a lot of stories about Yoda. And that's why I think that he's not as impactful as the Hulk. So I put the Hulk over Yoda.
John Shull 1:03:06
Who Yoda see I forgot about Yoda that I may regret not putting him out of my list somewhere.
Nick VinZant 1:03:12
I could actually, I could actually put grow goo ahead of Yoda. In terms of like, oh, well, they've actually got something going on. Like, you know, Yoda is cool, but you don't know anything about Yoda. Like where's Yoda from? Do you know where Yoda is from? No, how old was Yoda? You know anything about him? Other than that? He's Yoda.
John Shull 1:03:36
I was gonna try to do an impersonation of Yoda. But we've know how my impersonations are and I'm just not going to do it.
Nick VinZant 1:03:42
I can't do a Yoda impersonation. I don't ever want to to be honest with you. I do find it funny when people do it, but I can't do it. What's your number for
John Shull 1:03:49
Christmas trees?
Nick VinZant 1:03:53
You better have a pretty okay, it's gonna really depend once you have up above that. I feel like that's a pretty high. A pretty low for Christmas tree to be honest with you.
John Shull 1:04:04
Well, I mean, you know, number one should be easy. It won't be because it's you and me doing this. But yeah, yeah, I have the three above it or I think are pretty good ones. So,
Nick VinZant 1:04:16
my number four is chameleons. Not because I like chameleons, but only the idea of like changing color and stuff. That's pretty cool. I'll give it to chameleons for that
John Shull 1:04:26
hmm. Okay. I I mean, I think that's pretty weak to be on your top five. But you know, because I in terms of the animal kingdom, I'm not even sure that their top three green animal, I thought Wait,
Nick VinZant 1:04:46
okay, who you're gonna love them. I thought about putting crocodiles ahead of chameleons. But chameleons can change color which is something that not a lot of things can do. So I think that they get to get a little more credit, which makes me wonder what color they act Shirley are if they can change color.
John Shull 1:05:01
I mean frogs are green some of them right? Frogs alligators, crocodiles, iguanas. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 1:05:09
can can any of those change color
John Shull 1:05:14
I'm sure there's a species of frog that can change colors. I'm not I'm not taken away, you know. Grasshoppers are green. Fuck walk grasshoppers, walking sticks are green. I think they come on.
Nick VinZant 1:05:25
You're being ridiculous. You're being ridiculous with that. What's your number three then?
John Shull 1:05:31
Green camouflage, like, like military fatigues, like the green camouflage in the military.
Nick VinZant 1:05:39
Definitely very recognizable. My number three is completely different. It's a watermelon. Don't you? besmirch watermelon in my presence?
John Shull 1:05:54
I'm not. I mean, my number two is broccoli. So
Nick VinZant 1:06:01
that's your number two.
John Shull 1:06:03
Yeah, cuz I had to put some kind of vegetable on there. And I was thinking, you know, green vegetables. And I was trying to think of like, what's, what's noticeable? Like, what what, what what does everybody know of and it's broccoli one way or the other?
Nick VinZant 1:06:17
Okay, my number two is green lights.
John Shull 1:06:22
What are green? Oh, like stoplights? Greenland. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 1:06:25
like driving like green lights while driving. I could make an argument. That's number one. Everybody likes a green light. That's probably one of the most liked things in our society in any society is a green light. It's a little slice of hope.
John Shull 1:06:47
Yeah, actually, I mean, if you're having a rough morning and you're getting tailgate and the shit out of and all you want to do is get going. That green light can be like, Home Free, baby.
Nick VinZant 1:06:58
I feel like you're gonna say something ridiculous for your number one.
John Shull 1:07:02
Now, my number one's my number one is pretty universal. And it's just grass.
Nick VinZant 1:07:07
My number one is trees. Trees are better than grass in my opinion.
John Shull 1:07:15
Yeah, I mean, tomato tomahto. To me, I mean, trees are more important to the ecosystem and to the world. Right, but grass when you think of green, something green. You don't go man, that tree is really green today. So as the grass
Nick VinZant 1:07:32
I guess I just don't really like grass. To be honest with you. I've never really enjoyed grass. Like if you lay on grass, you're gonna get itchy. You can't really go out there barefoot, you're just stepping in dog piss. So I think that grass has really fallen off over the last 20 to 30 years. allergies and dogs have brought grass down.
John Shull 1:07:53
I think allergies are brought trees down. Trees are more influential when it comes to spreading allergens, allergens, allergens,
Nick VinZant 1:08:02
but nobody's around their bad mouth and trees. Nobody's ever been like us sick all these trees.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:09
Fuck them tree is
Nick VinZant 1:08:11
fuck the trees, right? Like there's others. Nobody's out there. You you try to cut a tree down in some parts of the country, you're gonna have to file out some paperwork. Nobody's worried about your grass. is there's an app, there's a strong anti grass movement going on right now.
John Shull 1:08:26
I don't know why that's so funny. But it's quite funny. Actually. I have some I have a lot on my honorable mentions. So I'm just gonna I'm just gonna pick five randomly and I'll just say those. Okay. Let's see a peacock.
Nick VinZant 1:08:42
The peacock green.
John Shull 1:08:45
Yeah, that's feathers are green, aren't they?
Nick VinZant 1:08:49
I would consider a peacock and may have some green feathers. But I wouldn't consider it green. What color would you think of what color do you consider a penguin to be black or white? Black? Yeah. I think of a penguin as being black. I think of a What the hell was it a peacock. I think of him as being blue. I don't think
John Shull 1:09:11
well, tomato, tomato. Let's see. Like I said frogs. Clover, like a four leaf clover. Let's see what I'm just randomly literally going up the list here.
Nick VinZant 1:09:23
Run off your list quickly. Just give it this give us the whole thing. All right. Give you a yes or no? Right after each one.
John Shull 1:09:30
Alright, so an athletic field like a soccer field football field. Okay, yeah. US money.
Nick VinZant 1:09:37
Yeah, although I don't really associate money with any color anymore. Like, money to me is just something that like I don't even know if it's real. Right? Like, I don't know, it says this in your bank account. So there must be something in there
John Shull 1:09:52
or nothing if you're me. I did
Nick VinZant 1:09:55
that's kind of crazy that our entire society is based on something we're not even sure if it it actually exists. Like, we've just all kind of agreed that this is there, but we don't know if it's actually there or not. Like those are just some numbers that someone put in there. If you could hack in and change the numbers, no one could ever tell you that you don't have that in your bank account.
John Shull 1:10:15
Well, if a hacker was listening to this and wants to change my numbers for the positive, I please I will not argue against that. Let's see. John Deere tractor. A green thumb to thought was kind of
Nick VinZant 1:10:31
a real thing, by the way. Yeah. Well, I
John Shull 1:10:33
don't know. So I, you don't seem like somebody who can? You're not a botanist. Let's see cactus cat.
Nick VinZant 1:10:42
Which one of us cut down a tree? Did you cut down a tree? Because I cut down a tree?
John Shull 1:10:47
Technically, that would wouldn't make your botanist and make you the opposite of a botanist.
Nick VinZant 1:10:54
arborist Believe it or not, arborist? You know, we had a professional tree climber on this podcast. Do you remember that? That was
John Shull 1:11:01
I remember the headline. I couldn't tell you when or what episode.
Nick VinZant 1:11:05
He's the best tree climber in the world, though. I know that.
John Shull 1:11:10
By the way, the tag guy was pretty, pretty awesome. There's no way that I would last five seconds and I've watched that on TV before. That's kind of I mean, it's incredible. What those guys can do and women.
Nick VinZant 1:11:22
I don't think I could walk through that course. Like my knees literally hurt just thinking about what else what else you got? Give me two more.
John Shull 1:11:30
Alright, yeah, I told you. I mean, I wrote down a lot. Um, let me see. Okay, lima beans.
Nick VinZant 1:11:37
What?
John Shull 1:11:38
Why were beans and spinach.
Nick VinZant 1:11:40
Nobody likes those do nobody likes either of those. Um, I have a bunch of like fictional things that I could put on there. Kermit Green Lantern Green Goblin. You Yoda grow goo? I thought about grass. But again, I don't like grass. Green eyes, but I've never been a huge like, I don't I don't know if I know anybody with green eyes. But eyes would be on there. That's all I got.
John Shull 1:12:07
I'll add one more Shrek The Grinch to more Shrek The Grinch and leprechauns.
Nick VinZant 1:12:15
Okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out doesn't have to be some big thing. Just a couple of words. And we really enjoy hearing what you think about the show. It's always entertaining. So let us know what you think are some of the best green things. I should have had grass on there. But I'm just I'm I'm just anti grass.