Nice Guy Reformer Ashley Cox

Ashley Cox is the founder of the “Nice Guy Reform School”. Her goal is to help men find success in the boardroom and the bedroom by teaching them to stop being “nice” and start being themselves. We talk male empowerment, feminism and what women really want. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Food Groups.

Ashley Cox: 01:33ish

Pointless: 31:21ish

Top 5: 46:59ish

www.instagram.com/niceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School Instagram)

www.facebook.com/theniceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School Facebook)

www.tiktok.com/@niceguyreformschool (Nice Guy Reform School TikTok)

https://go.oncehub.com/privateassessmentformen (Nice Guy Reform School Sessions)

Interview with Ashley Cox of the Nice Guy Reform School

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, nice guys and food groups,

Ashley Cox 0:20

I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned, like they feel like they're drowning, right. That's why it's nice guy reform school, these are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything. And they're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you. Because they see a leader, they see a man that they can follow, they see a man that knows who he is, they see a man who's in his power.

Nick VinZant 0:58

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So have you ever wondered if you're being too nice. And that that might be the thing that's holding you back, our first guest says that absolutely can be the case. And that being too nice, can keep you from achieving personal and professional success. She's the founder of the nice guy reformed school. This is Ashley Cox, what's wrong with nice guys,

Ashley Cox 1:34

there's nothing wrong with nice guys, if they're happy. That's true. There are a lot of nice guys that are very, very unhappy because they're being nice, so as to get a different need met. Like they're being nice. So someone likes them, or they're being nice. So they're validated or accepted or respected or so they can get what they want. And they don't realize that they're inherently powerful and lovable just as they are without having to perform or provide value to be loved.

Nick VinZant 2:04

So when you say about like nice guy reformed school, like what are you doing?

Ashley Cox 2:08

So I'm helping men who have essentially given their power away to their relationship, their partner, could be a business partner, it could be an intimate partner, their wife, really anything outside of themselves, and they feel kind of drowned. Like they feel like they're drowning in it, right? They they're doing everything they can do. They're not taking any time for themselves. And they're not getting their meet their needs met and return. They're not being appreciated. They're not being valued. In fact, they're usually being usually getting disrespected, undervalued, underappreciated taken advantage of, so I'm helping them understand the difference between being in their power and loving themselves and how to get their needs met that way, versus getting their needs met by putting their power and their energy into something outside of themselves. So as to, you know, hope, hope they get a return back, and usually they don't,

Nick VinZant 2:58

are we talking about people who are just nice bye their personality? Or like that is my fundamental nature or people who have kind of become nice because of society?

Ashley Cox 3:09

Yeah, so there's nothing wrong with being a nice person, right. And when I say nice guy, it's in quotes, because I'm talking about essentially a fawn trauma response. So there's four trauma responses, fight flight, freeze, and fawn. And the fawn trauma response is referring to a people pleasing habit. It's a form of codependency. And I think there's a difference between being kind, and being nice. So sometimes the kindest thing I can do is be honest with you, right? Being nice is essentially being overly concerned with how you view me or how I'm impacting you to the point where I abandoned myself, if I'm doing it to receive validation, attention, love approval, respect from you,

Nick VinZant 3:53

where does this kind of been translate in people's lives.

Ashley Cox 3:57

So it looks like taking better care of other people than you do yourself. So a lot of times, what I'll see is men who say, I've done everything for this person, and I've gotten nothing in return. In fact, she hates me. And she's disrespectful. And so they're very confused around and as to why they're doing all these things for this person and this woman. And like I said, it could be business partner, too. It could be a company. And they are not seeing the ROI that they thought they were going to see. They gain weight, they become depressed, they become bitter. And then sometimes they'll go to therapy and they don't feel they they find that that doesn't help because that therapist will say something like, How was your week and it's just another week of kind of having an existential crisis. And so they don't really have the words for that, right. It's just it goes. It's deep. It's very, very deep in someone's system, when they've been living like this for a long time.

Nick VinZant 4:54

When do you think this kind of started? Are you seeing more of it now? Or

Ashley Cox 4:59

I think it started with this is just a theory. Really, when the feminist movement started, there have been three waves of feminism. And I would say it probably started with the second second wave. And it's just gotten worse with the third wave. I don't think there's anything wrong with the feminist movement. In fact, you know, when I was a kid, I had like a Rosie the Riveter poster in my room, I was, you know, very independent, I grew up in a household of all women. But I think what it's done is one, the patriarchy, I've taught men that they had to protect they had to provide sometimes even give their life. And they weren't allowed to cry about it. They weren't allowed to have feelings about it. So were, we expected them to be robots. And I think that's where a lot of men got their definition of what it meant to be a man as a societal programming of, if you protect, if you provide, if you give your life if you sacrifice if you're a martyr than and, and you don't cry about it, and you suck it up, then that means that that's what makes you a man. And unfortunately, the human body, the human brain, it doesn't work that way. We have emotions, and you either express them or repress them, those are the only two options. So men have essentially become these pressure cookers. And when we add the feminist movement on top of it, women are saying, you know, they're these men have become pressure cookers, and they've, they've traumatized some men have traumatized women because of it. So when they were repressing their emotions, is essentially built up built up, built up, and the man either exploded, and, and traumatized the woman through abuse or something like that, or he completely shut down. And then the woman didn't have a man in her life that was standing up for her. And so what ended up happening was, a lot of men in the world, they either blew up, or they shut down. And the women are saying, oh my gosh, now we're traumatized. Because the fathers are either absent, emotionally unavailable, shut down, you know, a pushover, they didn't protect me, they didn't provide for me, or maybe they provide it for me, but they didn't protect me. Or my father blew up, and you know, he was insane, or an alcoholic, or whatever it you know, whatever it is. And so then men really don't know what to do with this, because they don't a lot of men don't want to hurt women. And so the natural reaction is, okay, well, I don't want to be the, you know, abusive, alcoholic man. And I don't want to I don't want to hurt these women even even more. So I'm just going to kind of play small and play safe. And let's, you know, give the women what they want, and make the woman happy. And they've been through so much. And they think that that's what's going to get them love and respect and validation, and, you know, kind of run off into the sunset because they were the good guy, right? But that's not really what women want or need.

Nick VinZant 7:58

Is this. I mean, I feel like from friends of mine, and just seeing stuff in the media that the men have this kind of confusion about like, well, what am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be the man that my father was was like this tough? Aggressive take charge? Or am I supposed to be this sensitive, empathetic person? Do you? Is there any kind of confusion that you see amongst men about like, well, what am I supposed to be now?

Ashley Cox 8:23

100%. That's why I do what I do. I like to call it the third way, where you kind of we blend the two, right? Where you're not a pushover. You're in control, you're in charge of your life, and you have an open heart, you're emotionally healthy. You can process emotions in real time, you can hold space for her emotions. It doesn't mean you have to hook into them or emote with her. But when a man can't hold his own emotions, which we haven't really taught men or boys how to do. In fact, we've made it wrong for them to have emotions. And so when we increase a man's bandwidth to process and hold space for their own emotions, they can then be more present with a woman. She has her emotional experiences. They can be kind of like a tree like rooted, grounded, present, but a man who can't hold the space for his own emotions will react poorly to a woman who's emoting. And he, and he'll struggle to set boundaries with her. So it's one thing for her to have her emotional experience. It's another thing for her to have poor behavior. And so it want right because she's angry or something, right. So what we want is a woman who feel safe enough with a present powerful man to emote and tell him how she feels and what she wants without blaming him shaming him or abusing him. And so if the man can stay present and grounded, kind of that bad boy confident energy, right? If he can stay there in it with her, and present, but not hooking I'm not react and set healthy boundaries around her behavior. So I'm here I'm present, I'm not afraid, I'm confident, and I care. But what you're not going to do is attack me, blame me, shame me, abuse me. Because you're hurting.

Nick VinZant 10:14

It seems like a fairly simple thing, right, essentially stand up for yourself. But why do men have trouble doing that?

Ashley Cox 10:21

There are a lot of reasons. But I think one of the biggest ones is in the middle of an emotional situation. It's essentially, both people's enter children coming out. And so what ends up happening is the, the woman is kind of when she's emoting. And she's angry, and she's upset, he probably did something that triggered, you know, some sort of abandonment wound that she has, right, something from her father, it could have been something as simple as you know, he left the socks on the floor. And he's completely lost as to why she's so angry. It's never about the Sox. Right? It's about you know, maybe she doesn't feel cared for, maybe she doesn't feel seen, maybe she doesn't feel heard. And that could go all the way back to her childhood. And so her brain starts to make all of these connections. And then before you know it, she's three years old again. And she's acting like a three year old. And same thing for him. When she goes to that space. It's really easy for him to take it personally, because men really want to please women. I don't think women understand how men are literally designed to respond to us. They're, they're designed to respond to our emotions. They're designed to the to want to please us. And so when a woman is upset and angry, a man immediately, it's very easy for a man to immediately take it personally, and make and think, I must not be enough, then I've done all these things for you. Like how can I, I can't figure this out, right? And he starts to personalize it. And then what happens? He goes into, he gets upset. And then he turns into his three year old that wasn't enough or wasn't seen or wasn't heard. And, and so really, it's kind of like he's viewing her at that moment as almost like a mother figure who is trying to get accept acceptance, validation, respect, approval love from and just can't.

Nick VinZant 12:12

So how did you get started in this?

Ashley Cox 12:15

So it's a little bit of a long story. But for nine months, I was dating. And I, I went out on a date with a guy that owned a law firm who was about my age. And later in the, in the evening, we were lying on the couch, and I had my head on his chest, we were fully clothed. We had really just met a couple. I mean, we maybe this was like the second or third date. And he started crying. And I was like, Wait, are you? Are you okay? And then he before I knew it, he was in the fetal position. And I was, I was very confused to

Nick VinZant 12:54

what? Right? Like, look, I'm not the smoothest guy in the world, but I can I'm better than that. At least. But go,

Ashley Cox 13:04

it was crazy. It was crazy. And think about it. I mean, if you if you're the owner of a law firm, that's a lot of pressure, right? And I met something about me something about my energy was very calming for him, and it felt safe for him. And he essentially started to kind of open up. And all of his kind of repressed emotions started coming out. They weren't necessarily bad. It was just like he said, it felt like he was on a mushroom trip, then it happened again. And so I went into this kind of deep meditation for three weeks, I was walking around Houston, I would walk for five or six hours every day, just thinking, meditating, connecting. And what came to me was that the patriarchy has hurt men just as much as it's hurt women. I mean, having so much pressure on you, right is is not easy. We see it in a suicide rate. So the suicide rate is almost four for men is almost four times out of women. They have they have no outlet for their emotional expression. I want men to have spaces where they can go process safely, without feeling guilty about it or without feeling shame around it.

Nick VinZant 14:17

When people come to you what's usually like their main reason for coming back. Is there a specific area where they say I need help with this, or this is the difficulty that I'm having?

Ashley Cox 14:28

Typically, they are looking at divorce. They're separated or they're thinking about being getting separated, their wife isn't happy. Or this is their third or fourth toxic relationship, quote, unquote, toxic relationship, and they have no idea what's wrong and what's going on because they're doing everything by the book. They're checking all the boxes, right? That's why it's nice guy or form school. These are guys that will go above and beyond to cross all their t's and dot all of their eyes and do everything by the book and everything correctly. And They're completely lost as to why that didn't accomplish or get them the results they thought it would. And they were told, it would essentially, if you're here, just this kind of person, you know, be be this man and a woman will be lucky to be with you. Right? And they don't they find that that's not the case, they find that they get taken advantage of, like I said, disrespected, sometimes cheated on

Nick VinZant 15:26

just the kind of thing like in the professional environment, right? Like I remember in my former career, I said, Yes, and I would do everything. But then when I started saying, No, I suddenly got farther ahead in my life. It did, can this kind of translate into people's professional careers?

Ashley Cox 15:42

Absolutely. So my whole thing is, when a man, so what I like to do is have men heal from their toxic relationships, and use those same skills that they learn to catapult their business. So typically, my client will come in healing from a toxic relationship and a toxic relationship, very confused. And by the time he leaves, he feels 1,000% better, and he's anywhere between doubled, or, you know, kind of quadrupled his business, just by just by doing nothing other than mindset, work, healing, opening up setting boundaries. It's pretty incredible. There's absolutely a relationship.

Nick VinZant 16:25

This is one of those things where I could see playing devil's advocate, some people listening to this and be like, Oh, she's right on. And some people listen to me, like, What are you talking about?

Ashley Cox 16:34

I get that a lot. People said, Well, what's wrong with being nice? Like, screw you, lady. I get that. And my own partner said the same thing. We had a little a little debate about it. There's nothing wrong with being nice. When I say quote, unquote, nice guy, I'm talking about like, again, the fawn trauma response and talking about codependency. I'm talking about taking better care of other people than you do yourself. And we've made that socially acceptable for men. And so it can be confusing, because it's like, well, I've been told to be nice. I've been told not to be an asshole. I've been told to, you know, open doors for women, there's nothing wrong with that, right? It's about the intention, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because someone told you to do it. And because you think it's going to make you a good guy and make people like you? Or are you doing it because you're already in your power, you can set boundaries if you want to, and you're actively choosing to show up and serve and protect and provide because that's who you want to be. And it doesn't matter to you whether or not someone validates you or proves you, or even thanks you for doing what you're doing. This is just who you are as a person. And I think it's important to look at those intentions.

Nick VinZant 17:46

So I was looking at your website, and I saw some things I'm like, Okay, I don't even know what those words necessarily mean. So I'm just going to ask you, so quantum self mastery.

Ashley Cox 17:56

So that's the name of my company. And nice guy reform school is a program underneath that company. And I've called it that, because I do a lot of meditations with my clients. And we essentially access what I call the zero point field, which is where infinite possibilities exist. And it's where a lot of healing can happen. So in that space, there's no time. There's, there's kind of, it's like a field of nothingness and everything all at once. And I'll take men into these meditations where they meet their higher self, they meet their shadow self, they meet their inner child. And they do something called parts integration, which is, when we experienced trauma, we essentially break off like a piece, a little piece of ourselves kind of get stuck in time, because our brain can't process whatever it is, especially as children. And so we go back to that to the root of that behavior, that feeling, and we process it properly. But we have to go into the subconscious mind to do that. So 95% of your behavior is subconscious. And the subconscious mind there's something called the collective unconscious, the subconscious mind is related to the collective unconscious. It's kind of this field that that connects us all. And so when I go into my subconscious mind, I'm essentially accessing that quantum field, the part of life that we we can't see, but we know it's there. We can feel it. There's you know, lifeforce moving through us. There's infinite possibilities. You can look at nature, you can look at the abundance of the universe and see that there's something really wonderful at work. So we go into that place. And we access those emotions, those memories, those feelings, and we work through the root of those because and that place, time and space doesn't exist. So I go back to the point of injury, the point of creation, the point of, you know, wherever that belief started, that wasn't true. And I work through it there, which then has a direct effect on my present day, emotions. It kind of works forwards and backwards. So they'll come out of those meditations having kind of gone gone into retrieve a part of themselves that they didn't even know broke off when they were three, or five or six, whenever there was something as a child that there was, you know, guilt or shame around that they were rejected for. And they thought, oh my gosh, in order to survive in society, I have to get rid of this part of myself, or they just couldn't process the pain. So we go in, and we collect those pieces. And we get back to their soul group blueprint, which is kind of the part of the version of them that has no fear,

Nick VinZant 20:31

the shadow expert part. So what is a shadow expert,

Ashley Cox 20:36

it's essentially the parts of ourselves that we repress. So for example, if as a child, my parents didn't like it when I played, because maybe my parents were anxious, and they thought that they had to function or perform in a certain way in order to get by in life. And so they thought they were doing me a favor, by raising me up to be serious and work hard and not play and to focus. And so as a child in order to stay in connection with my parents, which is in my best interest. So it's in my best interest to essentially cut myself off from the parts of me that they can't handle or that isn't within their kind of scope, right. So if I get in trouble for playing or laughing, or whatever it is, and I realized I'm going to lose connection, I will essentially repress that part of myself, so as to stay in connection with them. Or let's say it was the first time i i saw my dad's porno magazine, when I was eight or something. And I had guilt and shame around it, I might repress that kind of memory, or that part of myself, in order to function as continue to function in their presence continue to function as an adult, right? Just kind of put it out of my mind. And so it's coming back into the fullest expression and fullest spectrum of yourself, and removing that guilt and shame. so as to allow everything to flow more smoothly in your life.

Nick VinZant 22:11

Can people take this too far? Right? Well, I'm supposed to be me. But what if internal, you is just an asshole. Because I don't feel like that's gonna get you very far, either, right?

Ashley Cox 22:21

My psychopath claws, if you are born without empathy, I'm not talking to you. There's professional help for that. But if you're a normal, you know, if you're a functioning human, and you have empathy, and you are mindful, and you have some asshole like tendencies, typically, anger is associated with anxiety or pain. And that is, again, that's a trauma response. So that's what I'm doing with people as I'm like, I would look at what's pissing that person off and get to the root of the anxiety, get to the root of the pain, go back to the memory, where that essentially was programmed. And I would make it conscious. So they can reprogram themselves, and not have that anxiety and not have that pain. The anger is essentially a secondary emotion. So I'm getting to I want to get to the primary emotion get underneath it.

Nick VinZant 23:10

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yes. Can I get myself out of the friendzone? Yes. How?

Ashley Cox 23:26

Yeah. So that starts again, it starts with you actually detaching from needing something from that person and putting your your power outside of yourself, right. So if you're getting something, if you're getting rejection reflected to you, if you're getting kind of a lack of approval, a lack of validation, a lack of attractiveness, like someone being attracted to you, there's something in you again, it goes back to the guilt and shame, you're playing small. There's something in you that's actually rejecting yourself. And that person is an external mirror for where you're rejecting yourself. And you're not fully accepting yourself. You're not being you're, again, you're not being in the fullest expression of yourself. You're not in your power. And so what I love for men to do is be unapologetically honest and unapologetically themselves. And when I say honest, I don't mean like you were saying earlier, I don't mean to intentionally be an asshole to intentionally hurt people. And like, that's not what I mean. But I mean, don't say yes, if you don't mean yes, say yes. When you mean Yes. Say no. When you mean no, have reasons for things, have values, have standards have priorities, and to not lose yourself, because you want someone to like you. So ironically, that actually makes women more attracted to you, because they see a leader. They see a man that they can follow. They see a man that knows who he is they see a man who's in his power, who again isn't outsourcing his self esteem.

Nick VinZant 24:52

I'll paraphrase this massively. But is that why there's always these memes of like white guys complain about women seem to be grabbing Between gravitate towards the man who treats them like crap.

Ashley Cox 25:04

It's essentially the closest we can come to someone who's completely honest with us. Unfortunately, and I know it sounds ironic because those guys lie as well. But it feels safer to know that this is a man who is willing to fight when he needs to fight, who's, who can be scrappy, who can be honest, unfortunately, a lot of those guys again, that's their own trauma response. That's their own way of protecting themselves, essentially. And I would say they're not actually emotionally available. So what we really want is a man who can do all of those things, who can lead who can fight who can protect us, who's like, kind of has that warrior energy, but who has an open heart. And his boundaries are healthy, they're not to keep people out, not just physically, but when he's emotionally available allows us to feel emotionally safe with him as well. And that's a great way to turn a woman on,

Nick VinZant 25:59

I get the idea, like, Why do some women gravitate towards assholes? Well, because they're showing their true personality as opposed to somebody who's pretending to be nice. And like, Well, what do they really like?

Ashley Cox 26:10

I do want to add something to that. So women, when they're ovulating, they're more attracted to your traditional alpha male. And when they're closer to their menstrual cycle, they are more attracted to your traditional like beta or nice guy, which is really fascinating. So it speaks to it speaks to this kind of evolutionary concept or kind of just human nature, we are attracted to men who, when we're ovulating, we're attracted to men who can protect and protect us and provide for us in the event that we have a child. And that is more valuable in our mind than a man who is compassionate because it's a survival skill.

Nick VinZant 26:48

Where are men generally to nice

Ashley Cox 26:51

when they are trying to gain a woman's approval, and attention?

Nick VinZant 26:56

What do women think about this?

Ashley Cox 26:59

At first, if the woman is the partner of someone who's enrolling, they can be skeptical and go, Oh, my gosh, Who is this lady? And what does she want. And by the end there, you know, they want to send me like thank you cards, because their man is showing up powerfully he setting boundaries, she can respect him, she can relax around him, she can express her emotions without triggering him, she can express her emotions without him blowing up or shutting down. He's just in his power more, that's the only way I can put it. He's taking her you know, I've clients that will haven't really poured into their wives in years. And all of a sudden, they take her to trips, you know, they take her to Italy or Sicily, or give her spa days and just under the understand the importance of helping her relax and making her feel cared for and safe and protected and provided for and all at the same time, you know, and be the importance of them being emotionally available at the same time. And for all that love to come from a place of wholeness and goodness. And without any sort of underlying intention of trying to get something from her. It's just because I love you and I want you to feel cared for I want to pour into you. And it helps her feel completely relaxed, completely safe to see her man in her power and actively choosing her for the first time sometimes in years. And that's something else that I did want to add in is the power of decision making the power of being decisive. Leadership is vulnerable. Right and you have to be decisive to be a leader, you may make the wrong choice. And that's okay. You have to be willing to take that fall. And women want to feel chosen. So a man choosing a woman is a form of leadership. And it's hot, it turns her on it makes her feel extremely loved. So for her man to go from fawning people pleasing, not setting boundaries, not being decisive to all of a sudden setting boundaries, being decisive choosing her pursuing her going all in that just lights her up and helps open her up. And so by the end, the women love it. Although in the beginning, I think everyone's a little confused.

Nick VinZant 29:08

Can women benefit from it? Right because it's nice guy reform school but are women too nice to?

Ashley Cox 29:14

They are. It's a saint. It's very similar when it comes to anyone who is codependent anyone who's people pleasing. They become bitter, they become depressed. They don't want to try again. They're shut down. They're frustrated. They're not sure what they're doing wrong. I mean, I used to be that woman. Right. So what I help men with is something that I used to struggle with, especially in my early 20s. For me, it was also a trauma response. I had very strict parents, specifically a very strict mother. And I thought I had to be a certain way and I thought I had to be providing value to receive love. And unfortunately, I abandoned myself in the meantime, and I didn't get the results that I thought I was going to get by being perfect and eventually I had to learn to just be myself and that that was just that was that was enough?

Nick VinZant 30:06

What's kind of coming up next for you? Like, how can people get a hold of you that kind of stuff?

Ashley Cox 30:10

Yeah, so I have a lot going on this year, I'm doing corporate retreats for executives, and working with executive clients one on one in a corporate capacity and I also still have my private practice. So if you want to book a call for my private practice, you can go to quantum Self Mastery calm and there's a book now button you can find nice guy reformed school on all social media platforms. So you can find Instagram is nice guy reform school tick tock is nice guy reform school, Facebook is facebook.com forward slash Nice Guy reform school. And when it comes to the corporate, what you could do is kind of use those same buttons just to get in contact with me, you could email me and let me know that your corporation is looking for someone to help men with their relationship issues so they can get back into their executive functioning in the boardroom and not be distracted by being emotionally flooded.

ASMR Role Play Artist ASMR Shanny

Sometimes it’s a whisper. Sometimes it’s a Cosplay with a personal touch. Content Creator ASMR Shanny is known for creating unique videos that will trigger tingles and help you relax. We talk ASMR, Cosplay, Personal Attention Videos and growing a channel online. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Worst Sounds.

ASMR Shanny: 01:45ish

Pointless: 24:03

Top 5: 37:56ish

http://www.youtube.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny YouTube)

https://www.twitch.tv/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Twitch)

https://www.instagram.com/asmrshanny (ASMR Shanny Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQtEjFgulYY&t=351s (ASMR Shanny: Vi Makes You Her Cupcake)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svnik9tIhXg&t=41s (ASMR Shanny: Trinity Runs Diagnostics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAjCnHUJA0U&t=836s (ASMR Shanny: Vanessa Captures You)

Interview with ASMR Shanny

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we go inside the world of ASMR and count down the worst sounds.

ASMR Shanny 0:24

And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down, relaxes you helps you sleep, we all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplays. So I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist, like, my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always going to be someone out there who likes it. And there's always going to be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back.

Nick VinZant 1:05

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a content creator, who specializes in ASMR roleplay videos. Looks like there's some waves.

This is ASMR content creator ASMR. Shani, what is ASMR

ASMR Shanny 1:47

ASMR stands for Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response. And as far as we know, right now, like half the world's population gets this tingling sensation. And a lot of people just don't, they don't understand it, but they can still find relaxation from it. And it's basically just sounds or visuals or some in some cases, like my channel role plays like someone pretending to cut your hair. And it gives people like a tingling feeling down the back of their head and their neck and stuff. And it's almost like euphoric, and it calms you down relaxes you helps you sleep. A lot of people who watch it have like insomnia, anxiety, depression, PTSD, or some something else is kind of like, weighing on them mentally. And this can help relax you.

Nick VinZant 2:33

How did you get into it?

ASMR Shanny 2:35

It's really cool. Because a lot of people who have it don't realize they've had it like their whole life. Like my earliest memory I have of like getting this feeling. I was in like, second or third grade. And my friend was just like, putting makeup on me. And I thought it was like a normal thing. Like people just were like, oh, yeah, this is a cool feeling. But then I remember when I found it, I was in my basement at my dad's house. I was like 18 years old. And I was watching YouTube. And there was this channel that I don't even think was meant to be an ASMR channel, but it was called Food surgeon. And it was just like this hands like you didn't see the person it was his hands. And he would set up like a whole like, like surgery, like an operating table. And then he would do like little surgery to food. And he returned like an Oreo into a receipt and stuff like that. And it was just it was giving me that feeling. And then from there, I was getting recommended channels. And these recommended channels were ASMR channels. And that's kind of how I found it and realized, Oh, this is like a thing.

Nick VinZant 3:33

Is it something where like you either get it? Or you don't get it? Or do people get into it later? Like, I've got to watch 20 videos, and then I'm going to really understand what's going on?

ASMR Shanny 3:43

That's a good question. I think it's kind of like, that's what they're researching right now. Because a lot of people um, I think it's something that we've had, like I said, our whole lives, we didn't realize it, and then we find it and you kind of get into it right away because you see it and you get the feeling. I think for some people I know there are even some ASMR artists, people who like make content, who don't get the tingling feeling, but they do find relaxation in it. And so for those kinds of people, it'd be like watching it over time. I know that someone commented on one of my videos today that they don't get the feeling but they like watching ASMR because it's a way to interact with like their favorite fictional characters like my channel. I like do role plays based off like characters and animes or shows and stuff. So they like just kind of having that interaction fake interaction. So,

Nick VinZant 4:28

so okay, I'll be really direct about this. And this this I don't want this to come off as judgment of anybody who likes it or anything like that. But I watched it in for me. I was like, Oh, I can't like it. I couldn't handle it. Do you get that responses? Like I can't I can't watch this. I can't watch this.

ASMR Shanny 4:44

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I'm married and my husband is like the same way like he thinks that's super cringy I mean, like, everyone's got their own thing. Like for me, you just because you like ASMR you're not gonna like every video. Like certain people. There's certain we call them triggers. certain triggers you like and certain triggers you don't like my favorite sounds or water sounds. Um, one thing I can't stand is I hate eating sounds. So if someone is eating in a video can't do it, can't do it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work for somebody else. You just got to find what works for you.

Nick VinZant 5:17

Now, most of the ones that I've seen are on on YouTube, does it something that people have to see at the same time? Or is it just auditory?

ASMR Shanny 5:26

No, it can be auditory or visual. Some people prefer visual some people for auditory, I have a lot of my audios, like my, my video audios on, like what's called Spotify, so people can just listen to it and go to bed. For me, personally, I like role plays, which is like, the only way I can get the feeling is if it's like personal. So it's like, like I said someone cutting my hair or like a doctor examining you. So um, I would need to see the visual, I can't really do just audio, but some people are fine with just sounds, that's the ones you see online or people are like, are like scratching the mic. So it's either or.

Nick VinZant 6:05

That. Yeah, even that it's like Fascinating, right? Yeah. Cuz you don't really listen to things that much like really listened to it?

ASMR Shanny 6:14

Oh, yeah. It's like, you're really just listening to it to zone out when you're doing like the audio stuff. And that's kind of nice when I'm trying to go to bed. And I don't want to focus on like a story or a person. So the audio is kind of nice. And like, like you said, you're not necessarily like really focused on it. It's kind of in the background to relax you.

Nick VinZant 6:30

Me watching it from a complete outsider perspective, right? Is it simply kind of a relaxing thing? Because when I looked at I was like, Okay, this is either something that is relaxing, or is there? Is there a sexual side of it?

ASMR Shanny 6:45

Now, so that is a big question, or like a thing that a lot of us get all the time. So that is, you know, a normal question. But um, no, ASMR is not inherently sexual. Like, it's not meant for, you know, sexual pleasure or anything like that. It's meant to relax people or give people that feeling and make them happy. It's like a euphoric type feeling. It's like anything, anyone anywhere is going to turn something sexual, like, you go to Halloween stores now. And there's like a sexy clown costume or like a sexy ketchup bottle. That's not inherently sexual, but somebody did it. So it's the same thing. There's people out there who are doing NSFW ASMR content. But no, it's not. It's not meant for that. But I mean, you can I guess someone did it. But

Nick VinZant 7:29

right. Yeah, I mean, we've had some adult film stars on this podcast before and one of it like, a guy wanted to watch me eating cheese. Like nobody would think that cheese is a sexual thing. But right how, however you get down, what up,

ASMR Shanny 7:42

and I don't want to diss those people because I have friends who do NSFW ASMR content. So you know, whatever makes anyone happy. But no, yeah, if you ask anyone who does it like on YouTube, it's not meant to be sexual.

Nick VinZant 7:54

There. Is there a lot of people who are into this who are doing it, like how big of an audience are we talking about?

ASMR Shanny 8:02

It's crazy. There's so many more now than what it was when I started. So I found it. Like I said, when I was like 18. And at that point, there wasn't that many people doing it on YouTube. I had like three channels I watched and that was it and shout out to them. It was like GB, ASMR glow, and ASMR magic. And there was a few others like Corona and stuff like that, that I found later. But they're like the real Oh, geez, they've been doing it for years. But when I joined, we call them waves. I was like the third wave of people to start creating on YouTube. And still, there wasn't that many. And now there's so many. There's so many that I find new channels every day

Nick VinZant 8:40

Do do you get pushback? Like do people look at it? who maybe have a different mindset? Like for me, I'm like, Whatever, whatever you want to do, I don't care. Right? Like you're not hurting somebody. Do what makes you happy. But do you get pushback from other people all

ASMR Shanny 8:55

the time, like, I mean, like but just like I like I like I say just like any community out there, there's always pushback about everything. Someone doesn't understand something. And their instinct is to just make fun of or bash people and like you guys are weird. And just let everyone do what they want to do and be happy as long as they're not hurting anybody. Like we're here to help people relax. Like we're helping people with, you know, mental issues such as, like anxiety, we're helping people calm down and sleep. We're not out here to try to make you uncomfortable. So if you don't like it, you know, you don't have to watch it. But you know, there's people out there dissing other communities, you know, people who like anime, so on and so forth. Just let people enjoy. You know,

Nick VinZant 9:30

so like, when you're making one of your videos, are there specific things that like, okay, the ASMR audience wants to hear this. I need to do this.

ASMR Shanny 9:39

Yeah, so um, mine are mainly like roleplay is which is kind of like a situation or like a movie of someone doing something to the viewer. So I have to try to remind myself that it's not always cinematic like I have to include things to make it ASMR such as, like, you know, face touching or like, you know, scratching their head or like anything or like examining them, I have to remember to include those like specific triggers to actually make it an ASMR video

Nick VinZant 10:06

that kind of reminds me of like animal grooming, right? Like,

ASMR Shanny 10:10

there are videos like that where people pretend the viewers like an animal and they groom them, you can find something of everything.

Nick VinZant 10:17

So for like a roleplay video, like what will you do for one of your videos? Like what will you generally do? Do you dress up a certain way? Do you like how does this work?

ASMR Shanny 10:28

So I'm known for my cosplayers. We all kind of have our own little niche, but I have fallen into cosplay, so I typically will do a popular character and take it in an ASMR twist. Like my most recent video that went up. I don't know if you know anything about anime. I don't always do anime, but it just so happens. My last few videos have been like that. So I did Cowboy Bebop, and I did a character named Faye Valentine. And I spun it like because she's a bounty hunter. So the viewer was getting taken in for the bounty and I was like, playing with like coins and stuff like that and making like, you know, relaxing noises that would involve that scenario, as well as my new video coming out is Trinity from the matrix. And I'm doing like diagnostics when they're stuck in the construct.

Nick VinZant 11:13

And real quick, just to give you an idea of what an ASMR roleplay video sounds like, here's a clip from that matrix video. Hello. Good to see you. Oh, well. This this is the construct. Wait a minute, Cowboy Bebop is all that Netflix show wasn't very good. No.

ASMR Shanny 11:44

Anime. Really? Yes, exactly.

Nick VinZant 11:48

They screw that up? Like how did they screw that up so badly?

ASMR Shanny 11:52

Oh, you know, I only researched it a tiny bit about the show. But they were saying that they were trying to take like a daring like, twist or take on it and make it like refreshing and new, I guess. But um, I don't know. I personally liked the old Fe Valentine's character. And that's the one I did.

Nick VinZant 12:09

Well, you get like, for example, like now, when we talk about these videos, like are they? How long are they usually? Are you making just some kind of short form stuff? Are you really kind of stretching this? Like I'm putting this on for? You see those YouTube videos, 10 hours of relaxing music and like who the hell is

ASMR Shanny 12:26

I have no idea who watches those. But it would come in handy if you were sleeping. But know that I think the most I've ever done is an hour and that's stretching it like I never do it that long. My Videos typically average like 20 minutes

Nick VinZant 12:37

for yourself. Would you say that? You're I know, this is a hard question to answer, right? Like, are you pretty typical of an ASMR? Content Creator? Or do you feel like wow, I push this a little bit more. I'm a little bit different in this regard.

ASMR Shanny 12:49

I'd say we're all pretty much in this in the same boat. where I differ is I have a lot of I love horror movies and stuff like that. And like science fiction. So I typically border like the horror genre and like sci fi genre, which is a little bit I think different than a lot of people where they kind of do like the typical just like a hair salon or like a normal medical exam. And I always have like a weird little twist on mine.

Nick VinZant 13:16

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

ASMR Shanny 13:20

Oh, yeah, let's go. Oh, that sounds fun.

Nick VinZant 13:23

What is your favorite sound

ASMR Shanny 13:25

water sounds. So like one of my favorite ASMR artists back in the day. ASMR magic, she has this video where she just set up an umbrella with like a microphone underneath it. And she just did like a bunch of drippy water sounds on it fell asleep instantly. I love that video,

Nick VinZant 13:42

is that mainly what a lot of people are doing like they're just putting it on next to them while they're trying to go to sleep or relax

ASMR Shanny 13:49

that or when I used to get anxiety attacks a lot. I would put it on to call me and distract me,

Nick VinZant 13:54

does it? I mean, could you how like, I don't know, this is overly personal, feel free to skip it. But like, like how quickly would it have an effect on you? We have a feeling an attack coming on. And like I have family members that have a personal history about it. So yeah, you know, seeing those experiences, but like,

ASMR Shanny 14:11

I'd say maybe like five to 10 minutes and after they like get immersed in like a role play or something and then it'll distract me enough and calm me down.

Nick VinZant 14:19

I mean, that's pretty good.

ASMR Shanny 14:20

No, it's for especially for me because I can get really bad ones. So

Nick VinZant 14:26

do you. Is there any concern though, that maybe like, because people have this outlet? That maybe someone with an issue isn't getting? Like isn't going to a perfect? A like a professional medical help or a therapist or something like that?

ASMR Shanny 14:43

I do understand. That is a very good question. No, um, we saw a lot of people. I like to think of us as a way to help people get in the door of that because a lot of people think there's like a taboo about therapy, and we don't a lot of ASM artist highly recommend, you know, going to talk to someone it's helpful. So they, a lot of them see us as like a friend or like someone they can go to. And we all have like discords in our own communities and stuff. And I'll have people come in and they feel comfortable enough to open up to me, and I'll talk to them everything but I remind them, I'm not a professional like that. I'm just you know, I'm someone here that cares about them, willing to listen, and then I always recommend people go find someone to talk to. So we always anyone you can ask anyone does ASMR always recommend people going and finding someone that can help them?

Nick VinZant 15:29

What is your least favorite sound? Eating sounds,

ASMR Shanny 15:32

though, I will say even though I don't like eating sounds, I am a foodie. And I will try anything in the whole world. There's not one food I won't try. So I will occasionally go to one of those eating videos just to watch them eat something weird. And I'll just have to like maybe turn down the sound so I don't hear it.

Nick VinZant 15:51

Like an eating. What did they call that a muck?

ASMR Shanny 15:53

Yeah. So you said it. You don't even do it. And you said it way better than I can ever say it. So I'm very impressed.

Nick VinZant 16:01

We had a professional eater who does them. That's the only reason that I know as Katina eats kilos. And she like that's one of her biggest videos. What is something that you have found that is? That is an unexpected sound like that doesn't make the sound you think it does when you really listen to it?

ASMR Shanny 16:18

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Something that makes an unexpected sound. You know this thing. It's sitting next to me. I didn't know it was gonna make this sound. So this is a nice glow. It's like meant for like massaging your face. But I don't know if it'll do it in this mic right now. You can't hear it. It's

Nick VinZant 16:38

a little bit it sounded like kind of watery.

ASMR Shanny 16:41

Yeah, it's like a Blub blub Blub blub and you would think but it's like a really cool thing. Like when I do it with a reverb on stream. It sounds like a like some kind of science fiction Mad Doctor like, you know, like medical blub, blub Blub sound. And it's pretty cool. And I didn't know it was gonna do that when I got it. So we were all for it.

Nick VinZant 16:59

That was actually a pretty cool sound. That was kind of Yeah. Oh, yeah. What is your favorite movie? Affect sound?

ASMR Shanny 17:06

Okay, I don't know about movie effects sound but my first time that I ever really got ASMR well, two, there's two. And they were both animated movies when I was like really little. And so it's scenes because I'm not necessarily a sound person. Like I said, I'm more of like a roleplay visual person. But in Toy Story, when the old man is like repainting Woody? And like Dude, I'm talking about when he's like retouching of Woody's paint and like, he's stitching them and stuff in and backup. That was a big one for me that gave me ASMR and then a Nightmare Before Christmas. When Jack Skellington is like testing all the Christmas stuff and his like lab and he's like crushing the ornaments and like doing like tests on them. Hmm, that was another one. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 17:49

I have not seen Nightmare Before Christmas is too scary for me. I can't watch scary movies. Oh, it's that bad.

ASMR Shanny 17:58

Oh, you would never want to watch movies with me. I'm so sorry. I

Nick VinZant 18:00

can't stand it at all. Like, King Kong. The movie King cause like this is too scary. I'm leaving. Oh, I can only handle it. I cannot handle it. Um, oh my gosh. Have you ever heard the Star Wars like concussion? Grenade? That's the sound that always that's like a bone.

ASMR Shanny 18:20

Oh, okay. Yes. Now I know it. Isn't that weird? You did it. And I was like, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 18:25

that sound is Yeah, yeah. That's cool. This one says do you watch go to video? I don't know what that means. Is it? Just me? Oh, what video I go to video. Yeah. What's what for you? What's your go to video

ASMR Shanny 18:46

I will share. So. It's so funny because I say that my favorite videos are like roleplay videos, but actually, they are like, I prefer roleplay videos. But my two favorite videos are from the same person. And they're not really roleplay videos. They're more of like a trigger video interlaced with it. It's kind of hard to explain. But her name is Rami. See if I say it correctly, because I think she's Korean. So I don't want to butcher the name here. Hold on. Rep. So it's rappeler.

Nick VinZant 19:13

As we put a link, we can put a link to in the description.

ASMR Shanny 19:16

Yeah, I'll give you it's our a PP E L er ASMR. And she has two videos that I love. And she must have spent months making this. It's like a book. And she does like an exam but she like Drew ears and stuff in the book and put microphones in the book. And like, it's so good and so cool and interesting. And then she made her own book of Coraline like the movie, but it's in like a pop up book form so she can like it's really cool. Those are my two favorite videos.

Nick VinZant 19:48

So how long does it take you to make a video you put out like what one a week or so

ASMR Shanny 19:53

I put out two a week and it takes me like three days on each one she that had to have been like should have put a month into each Have those videos like That's insane? Like they are so good?

Nick VinZant 20:03

What is your most frequent look? Most frequent request?

ASMR Shanny 20:09

Um, so I guess there's a bunch of them. There's similar like as I typically border like the horror stuff. And so I don't know if you ever heard of the SPS SCP Foundation? Have you ever heard of that? No. Okay. It's like a wiki. Like it was like a basically like a internet story. That like is like a wiki website. And it's like, fake, but it's like a sci fi website that has all these different monsters. And like, since then it's become video games. And it's like this huge thing. And there's all it's basically like a foundation, kind of like area 51, where they keep all these different, like monsters and creatures and aliens and stuff around the world trapped in this place. And they all have different numbers like SCP 191, or SCP 099. And so I'll do different videos, like the viewer is a different monster each time and I'm a doctor, or a scientist examining them, I get a lot of requests for that.

Nick VinZant 21:07

What is your most interesting request?

ASMR Shanny 21:11

Oh, well, not interesting. The most annoying one that we get all the time is that everyone always wants to see like feet. Because you know, people try to turn things sexual all the time when they shouldn't.

Nick VinZant 21:21

I will give this to the feet people. They are persistent.

ASMR Shanny 21:24

They are persistent. And like I said, everyone has their thing. So I don't want to diss them. But I wish they would stop putting it in the comments on like people's pages who clearly aren't doing feet content.

Nick VinZant 21:34

For somebody who is looking to get into this. As a content creator. I think they mean, what advice would you give them

ASMR Shanny 21:42

just to do it. So like, my, my only regret is that I waited like a year because I was nervous. I didn't get the right equipment and think I'd be good at it. No, there's always gonna be someone out there who likes it. And there's always gonna be someone out there who doesn't. You can't let the people hold you back. You don't need expensive equipment. I have friends who have 400,000 subscribers get like 200,000 video views a day and all they uses an iPhone. So like, Just do it. Just start right now. Just go do it. Also join Twitter because the ASMR community is so nice. And we will all support you.

Nick VinZant 22:15

So now you have the YouTube channel. What else do you have?

ASMR Shanny 22:18

I have my YouTube channel and then I have my Twitch, which is you know, like live streaming where I play video games or do ASMR and that's also ASMR Shani,

Nick VinZant 22:27

cool. Um, where do you I guess? Where do you think this goes? Like, ASMR? Yeah, I think the next thing is,

ASMR Shanny 22:34

I think it's gonna keep growing, I would love to see it more in like out in the public more in the world more actually being used to help people like, you know, if we can learn more about it in this study that they're doing right now, over in the UK, it would be really cool to see it start being incorporated, like maybe in therapy or like with, you know, psychologists and stuff like that, because it really is a benefit. And you know, I'd like to see it less taboo and more like people actually learning about it and seeing that, you know, it can help people

Nick VinZant 23:01

do you know, is there a typical age range for your audience?

ASMR Shanny 23:04

There is no i Because I It ranges from like, you know, 13 or lower, you know, to I've had it says on YouTube, I've had people like in their 70s

Nick VinZant 23:14

So like, Gee, is there anything else you think that we missed, or what's kind of coming up next for you?

ASMR Shanny 23:20

There's not really much that you missed. I mean, we're, we're all just working really hard I have. We all always work on collabs and stuff like that. I'm trying to you know, just work on Twitch and grow that pretty, you know, pretty much that's all there is to it. I just make two videos a week. You can catch that out on my channel and I stream on Twitch four days a week.

Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Dallas Seavey is one of the best dog mushers in history. He’s won the Iditarod 5x and is getting his dog sled ready for a sixth. We talk dogs, braving 55 degrees below zero, forming a bond with your pet and eating 12,000 calories a day. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Fictional Dogs.

Dallas Seavey: 01:15ish

Pointless: 35:06

Top 5: 45:24ish

http://dallasseavey.com (Dallas Seavey Website)

https://www.facebook.com/DallasSeavey (Dallas Seavey Facebook)

https://www.youtube.com/c/dallasseavey1 (Dallas Seavey YouTube)

Interview with Champion Dog Musher Dallas Seavey

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everyone, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, dogs, real ones, and fake ones.

Dallas Seavey 0:22

The Iditarod is strung out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of like, I don't know if I can actually pull this off or if I can physically do this as, as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. So on a really good trail, good conditions. You know, we're going to be looking at probably 120 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster rail windy. I know, right? That's exactly what I think the best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here. Right.

Nick VinZant 0:55

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, please leave a review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So our first guest is one of the best dog mushers in history. This is five time I did Rob champion, Dallas Seavey. So when did you realize that this was something that you wanted to do?

Dallas Seavey 1:18

Um, I grew up mushing sled dogs being around dogs, and they were always a huge part of my life. I would say when I decided that I was going to jump in with both feet and make this my adult lifestyle was after I got done wrestling, I was a wrestler for a long time in Olympic style primarily. And then had my career cut a little short due to too many concussions. And it really I think that's what I've kind of turned my focus. Alright, where's Where's another sport where I can be miserable. And my, my one good trait, which is being really good at being miserable. And keeping a level head through it all and making good decisions. Where does that have value? And then where can I do that in a way that I enjoy it and that's mushing I, I like the challenges it puts on me as a person. But more so I enjoy the connection with the animals, you know, overcoming challenges with your best friends, which are in this case, dogs, you know, getting out there and do something difficult. And it's not always fun in the sense of, Oh, isn't this so much fun sitting on the beach with, you know, a drink in your hand, but it's fulfilling, and it's rewarding.

Nick VinZant 2:22

Okay, so from the complete outside, I know nothing about it perspective, right? Like, alright, you stand there on the back of the sled, you tell the dogs to go.Tell me why it's way harder and more complicated than that,like, what are you really doing?

Dallas Seavey 2:37

Yeah, you know, at some points in time, it is that simple, because we're working with a dog that loves to mush as much as we do, right. And that's really the core of this is the sled dogs. This is their passion. This is what they love to do. Just like if you have a lab, you can throw that ball at me 10,000 times 20,000 times, and they're still going to go running over there and fetch it and bring it back your Border Collie, it doesn't matter if it's sheep, if it's chickens, if it's kids, if it's bicycles, they're gonna try to hurt it and push them all together, because that's what they're programmed to do. And in sled dogs, they're programmed to run to travel to pull. That's what they love doing. So at times, it really is just that simple. At the beautiful times, when you're sitting on the sled, the dogs are cruising down the trail, everything's happy, hunky dory, no problems in the world. The challenge is to try to do it better to try to set the dogs up for more success to understand them to such a level that you see what's going to happen and their physiology three, four or five days from now. And that takes understanding to really master the sport, you have to understand these guys to know the paces that they can run, how much rest do they need after each section of this trail? And what speed should we be traveling in? How is this individual going to react to this different trail condition? Is it going to take more of a toll on their body? Is this an easier trail for them? And then not just as an individual, but as a team? How is it going to affect each of them? So we're monitoring the calories that are going in the attitude amongst the team? How they're acting? Are they having a great day? Are they having a rough day? How am I going to accommodate accommodate their challenges on a day to day basis? How am I going to lift them up when it's you know, just a crappy weather day? And it's maybe not as much fun? How am I going to kind of bring them down later when they're all gung ho and excited and going way too fast? And I know that this isn't a sustainable pace, how do I help monitor them and keep them on that level keel? So it's challenging, primarily because you have to understand, and nowadays it's a 14 dog race, you have to understand all 14 of those dogs individually, so intimately well, and then also as a single unit, how they interconnect. And then finally you add the different species, the human into the equation and you have to understand how you're going to react to eight, nine days of sleeping very little or not sleeping at all, and being in at times down to 54 by 57, below zero temperatures, because our emotions, our feelings, start making effects, oftentimes negative effects on the team when we're sour, and we're miserable, and we think everything's going wrong. And we're only looking at it from our human perspective, you got to kind of get out of your own head out of your own body and look at what the dogs see. And, and always set them up for success. That's really the key to managing any team, right is, is making sure that all your players are having the best day of their life.

Nick VinZant 5:28

It is kind of interesting, right? It's kind of like managing 14 people that you can't talk to,

Dallas Seavey 5:32

you're right in the short term, that is exactly what it is. The dogs, you know, they are very much so a pack animal. And they required I should say, demand, good pack structure. And if we're going to insert ourselves as the leader, we have to provide that pack structure. And we have to be aware of everything that's happening, where humans value comfort, the sled dogs value security, and that security comes from a strong pack.

Nick VinZant 5:59

When you look at the people who weigh you know, you've won the I did rod, I think five times, right? That's the that's the race that everybody at least in North America has kind of heard of. When you look at the people who win those races, though, is it like, okay, look, Dallas has the best dogs. We all know he's got the best dogs, he could sit back there and watch TV all day. And like how much of it is just the physical ability of the dog itself?

Dallas Seavey 6:24

That is definitely a factor. But you know, and I've played with this because I love breaking down Why do teams have success? Why is this team winning? Why is this team not winning? And I think at the end of the day, I would always take the great musher with an OK dog team. I would choose that one every single time over the great dog team with an OK musher. Even the best mushers. I think we're leaving a lot on the table. No, we're still learning, we're still getting better at developing and maximizing the sled dogs. So I don't think that the limiting factor at the moment is the raw genetic potential. I think these dogs are still capable of far more than what we're able to, you know, get out of them. And that's going to come through more and better development, more and better nutrition, medical awareness. I mean, I spend most of my day when I'm not mushing, the rest of my day is spent, basically, as a sports medicine professional. I'm massaging dogs. I'm doing a lot of cold laser therapy with these guys. We're maintaining the foot health, we're always looking at the nutrition. Where are we know, where can we improve on this nutrition on the dogs? No. Is it more omega three fatty acids? Is it something over here in the antioxidant range? Are we we have the AST Xanthine at the right levels, vitamin E, you know, we're trying to understand these guys on the whole spectrum. So I would say the coach makes a bigger difference. But also it goes one layer further because in most sports, a coach or a franchise is going to recruit or draft players, right? We do all of that in house it starts with a puppy being born. And it starts even before that when me as a musher decides which dogs are going to breed. So even the raw genetic potential that you have in your kennel is a trait of your mushers knowledge when it comes to breeding and genetics. Right, so we can't use that. Oh, the dogs aren't good enough as an excuse because we have to take ownership of that and recognize that we decided which dogs to breed.

Nick VinZant 8:18

So the particulars like I've never seen a sled dog before like they're this big. They're this breed like kind of fill me in on the particulars. I guess

Dallas Seavey 8:29

the Alaskan Husky that we're racing is a mixed breed dog. Now the mixing primarily happened in the early 19 hundred's during the Gold Rush era in Alaska, when sled dogs were incredibly valuable, because that was the primary mode of transportation to haul, you know hopeful miners and supplies out to these gold mining towns and gold and a lot of discouraged miners out of the gold mining towns. And so during that time, sled dogs are incredibly valuable and this caused people to bring any dog they had to Alaska, and then cross those with the malamutes and Siberians which were the kind of traditional sled dogs of Siberia and Alaska that had been you know, helping humans survive in the Arctic for over 10,000 years. And then the resulting mixed breed puppy was just generically coined the Alaskan husky, and it's smaller than an Alaskan Malamute, smaller than most Siberians, but there are some pretty small Siberians out there as well. So most of the Alaskan Huskies are between 50 and 75 pounds. So it's not like a specific Oh, this is the right size, and they can look like everything. There's all different colorations in there. The one thing that is common amongst all sled dogs is their innate drive and desire to run and more than run to pull. It's really interesting. I've got about a two acre fenced in you know, play pan out here that the dogs go out into and out there they like to trot around and they'll you know, one of them will pick up a stick and run and the other ones will chase them chase them of course, but um, they like to run in that setting, but they go absolutely reserve when you get out the harness, and now they get to be in a team and get to pull. It is so strange that it's not just running, it's actually the act of pulling that they enjoy. Now, how far can they go in a day? In the I did run setting, which is nearly 1000 Miles race. It's not a matter of how far they can go is how far is it smart to go? And how far can they go sustainably sustainably would be the key word here. So on a really good trail, good conditions, you know, we're going to be looking at probably 120, about 120 miles a day would be a normal, faster trail winning pace. Yep, I know, right. That's exactly what I think every time I kidding. And they're doing this. And that. And this is where you get the discrepancy of the human and the dog because I'm getting very little sleep in a day, because I'm the only person that can aid my team, I'm the only one that can prepare their food that can put the booties on their feet to put the jackets on and when it's time to stop and sleep, give them massages, fix my sled repack the sled. So when we stop, that's when I actually go to work. So I might be getting an hour to two hours of sleep a day. Whereas the dogs are getting somewhere between eight and 12 hours of sleep a day, depending on where we are in the race, if it's early in the race, if it's later how tough the traveling conditions are so far, so on and so forth. So when I'm thinking, oh, man, I gotta wake the dogs up, put the booties on him and start going in my heads in a cloud because I haven't slept hardly at all in six or seven or eight days. And I'm getting them hitched up and all of a sudden, these dogs start barking and lunging and hitting the line, just raring to go. And it blows your mind every single time. And you got to remember they're they're getting a little more sleep, but they're also the ones that are actually running down the trail. And that's a pretty phenomenal athlete.

Nick VinZant 11:40

Right? Right. Yeah. I honestly when I asked that question with no knowledge, honestly tell you guys say like 1020 miles. Yeah, that's incredible. 100 ma.

Dallas Seavey 11:50

Yeah. So here's shit. And there's a few things that allow the sled dogs and you know, it's not like they're running on a treadmill? No, no, it's a lot harder than a treadmill run. But in to do that sort of distance on a day, it would require a fairly good trail where the snowmobiles have gone before the race, kind of pack it down. So there might be some light squishy snow, maybe an inch or two of soft snow on the surface. But there's generally a packed base underneath that not always but generally. But what makes the sled dogs or allows them to be able to do these incredible feats are a few things. First of all, the canine in general has the largest heart proportionate to its body mass of any mammal out there. So they're already starting with a heart that's bigger than any other mammal. And surprisingly, mammals heart size is pretty constant relative to their body size. Of course, everywhere from a mouse to a whale, it's a pretty constant heart size. And I think it starts at point oh, six of the animal's body mass can be built to point O eight. Whereas canine start at point O eight and can build it up to 1% of their body mass, so they have a bigger heart, then pretty much any mammal. The second thing that really allows the canine, aka the Alaskan Husky to be such a phenomenal traveler, is their ability to process calories. First of all, a dog system runs on fats, as opposed to a human that we were on more off of sugar, right? So we're looking at carbs, you look at a marathoners diet, and it's very simple sugars, it's those fast carbs that are going to hit their system. And when a marathoner talks about bonking at the end of a marathon, it's when they run out of blood sugar, and now their body's having to convert stored fat into energy. That's a very inefficient process for a human. A dog system is designed to run on fats. And they're incredibly efficient at either consuming fats and instantly turning it into energy or storing that fat and then switching and using stored fat for energy. Lastly, a 55 pound sled dog can easily burn and then also consume and replace 12,000 calories a day. 12,000 calories a day. So we think of a crazy human athlete, let's say Michael Phelps will hit 12,000 calories in a day. But he's not a 55 pound animal either. Right? So when you look at the calories per kilo of animal, their ability to consume and and then process and then utilize those calories makes them the ultimate endurance animal. That is kind of crazy when you think about it, right? Like if you translated that to a normal, average human 150 pound male, that's like 36,000 calories. Yeah, it's just time all day just to plain eat that. I would Yeah, if you could, you know, that would be a real challenge. You'd have to be some sort of professional eager to hit that many calories to get 36,000 calories, you'd be looking at almost 10 pounds of straight fat, because a pound of fat, I think is 3500 calories. And this brings up another really good point as a musher when I'm coaching new mushers or even a do mushing symposium and things like that. We have to recognize our our place as a human in the pecking order here. These dogs are the supreme athlete. So especially for me I was a I was a wrestler I can been at the top level I came out of that went into my And I viewed myself as very physical musher. Right, I was the guy that could run up all the hills could ski pole constantly. And yes, I can do that. But that is not the best use of my energy. The best use of my energy is to recognize my greatest quality for this team is my opposable thumbs right here, right? I can do massages, I can put booties on I can prepare food, I am a caregiver on the trail, I have to recognize the fact that they are the athletes. So me trying to run up the hills, and you know, tiring myself out is not helping the team. The way that I help the team is make sure that they feel 100% Perfect. If I can do that, they can do incredible things they did a rod is about maintaining a healthy team, as you travel a great distance. It's about being a good dog person. And the racing part of it almost happens in a secondary nature. If you do all these base things really well, good results are going to happen.

Nick VinZant 15:52

What was that, like when you the first time that you want it?

Dallas Seavey 15:55

That was that was quite the experience? You know, mostly because I didn't know if I could. And I have to admit that's probably part of why I wanted to get into it. I didn't know if I could win the idea, right? My dad had been racing since I was very young. He my dad raised me I did run from 95 to 2020. So all of my childhood was focused around helping my dad prepare his his teams for the Iditarod, things like that. So my life was focused around it. And you know, my dad's a now a three time I did a rock champion, you know, very focused individual very successful running his his businesses and whatnot. So when I saw him try and seemingly failed to win the I did it year after year, it really put I did run champions up on this pedestal for me where I felt like they were superhuman Demi gods that were able to do it. Because if my dad can't do it, and obviously I looked up to him, you know, then what does it take to do this? And finally, on my dad's 11th attempt, he cracked the code one his first I did right in 2004. And that was like, I think the moment that I realized that the people that when they did are are not superhuman, they're not demigods. They're just very persistent. People that continually know, creatively solve problems, continually address things that they have to do this introspective look and say, What am I doing wrong? And take ownership of that. By the time you know, I started racing with my own kennel in 2009. You know, by that point, my dad had run 15 Something I did rods, maybe more and had one, you know, one of them. So I didn't know if I could. And when I won my first I did run every single dog and my team had been purchased from another kennel. And what that means is every one of my dogs had just recently been fired from their previous job. And so it really was kind of the mix match hodgepodge team. And that was the first time that a team one thing I did, that was entirely purchased. So the feeling was definitely a bit of a bit of a shock and surprise, like holy cow, we actually did it. But definitely the overpowering feeling was a sense of pride. You know, in this team and these dogs what they had become, they weren't the best of the best genetically, right? All these were all the the worst dog in their litter, not the best dog in the litter. They were the last round draft picks. And that's really, it really opened my eyes to how much more we can do about development. The focus is about developing these dogs, not better raw genetic material, but better coaching and development of what you have.

Nick VinZant 18:28

So will you look at it? So there's 14? Are they in Rosa two? Yep. So will you look at and say, okay, Steve is great in the middle of the pack on the left side, but he's no right side dog, like do you really put a lot of thought into exactly where in the harness they go?

Dallas Seavey 18:45

Mm hmm. And that changes on a, you know, on an hourly basis, honestly. So I do have dogs that are right and left sided, there are dogs that were on way better on the right or the left than they do the other side. And that's less common than dogs that will run better forward or back in the team. You know, as you get into the front of the team, it's, it is the most difficult position in the lead position, both physically and mentally, physically, because they're the ones having to drive the pace, there's no visual reference of how hard they need to go. The only input they have is from how hard they're pulling on the line behind them. So they're always having to put an extra 10% on the line to keep that line tight. If the team's going down a hill and then up the next tail it's like a dog team is a long item. So while half the team is still going down this hill at a greater speed, the front half of the team is having to sprint up the next hill at a much faster speed so it is harder for the lead dogs physically. Also, if you've run at all if you draft off of another runner they provide a windbreak right and humans run more racked. Obviously we have more surface area we create more wind resistance. But look at Tour de France cyclist they line up because it is easier to be in that space. slipstream have the cycles ahead of you. And it's the same with a dog team, they kind of have that decreased wind resistance. And then finally, if there's any soft snow on the trail, the dogs in the front are the ones having to put those first tracks in the snow and it gets easier for each pair of dogs behind them. Now when you get to the back of the team, the dogs right in front of the sled, they oftentimes have to be a little bit more agile, particularly on twisty windy trails, as we're going around these turns, those back, dogs will often have to jump over the center line and get over on the same side as their buddy to avoid an obstacle or the soft snow on the trail. And then as soon as we've completed that turn, they have to get back on their own side so that they can allow their partner to do the same thing, you know, jump over the line when we take a sweeping left hand turn. So those back dogs, not only are they having to pull forward, but they're having to be quick on their feet and jumping side to side and a little more activity there. So now that we understand that there are easier positions, generally in the middle of the team and harder positions, generally at the ends of the team. I'm constantly rotating dogs, so that nobody gets stuck in the hardest position for too long of a period of time. And this is also where you're judging attitude, how they're doing. And it's like, Man, this dog, they need to have an easy day to day. So I'm going to put them in the middle of the team, I may not even clip up their harness, you know, just put them on their collar so that they can jog along and not actually feel like they need to be pulling anything or not allowing them to pull because if that harness is hooked up, they will be leaning and pulling. So it's essentially putting them in neutral so that they can have a recovery run versus you know, actually working hard. Other dogs, man, they're, they're on it today. They're all perky and lively. And you know they've got that extra energy. Go ahead and take on that harder position in the lead today. So we're constantly moving dogs around in the team.

Nick VinZant 21:39

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yeah. What is your favorite dog name?

Dallas Seavey 21:47

It's hard to separate the name from the dog because when I mean I'm sure just like human names. There's got to be human names like Man, I hate people that are not people but I hate this name. Because it reminds me of this total Jackass I knew back in college. Right. But I would say both the one that popped into my head I'm just gonna go with that is clutch. Clutch. Awesome dog. He was on my first my early racing team though the winning teams back in the very first one. And he was the biggest heart a dog I've ever seen an insane appetite. He's one that I would have to feed him. Like just one quart of food at a time. I couldn't put all his food in his bowl because he would just smash his head in there and eat it and all the water would squirt out on the side of his face. So and it didn't matter how much you give him. He would feed him until he just be this big old barrel basically like the lab attitude where if you spill the bag of dog food, he'll eat the entire thing. Right? And just a huge hard on him. Yeah. Awesome, fun dog to be around. He wasn't the smartest. He wasn't the best athlete. But he had the biggest heart.

Nick VinZant 22:46

What about the worst?

Dallas Seavey 22:48

I'm not a fan of human names for dogs. I don't know why. It's just, I don't know. So most of my names are not human names.

Nick VinZant 22:58

Do you ever just mush to like the store? Or like, Hey, I'm gonna take a quick trip and just take the dogs.

Dallas Seavey 23:05

Yeah, yeah, no, I love doing trips like that because it breaks the cycle of mushing is just for training or just for the Iditarod No, mushing is what I love to do. Right. I like traveling by dog team. And I like doing it for fun. And sometimes when you really get serious into the race, and you've got to say, Hey, am I still enjoying this? Are we just so focused on the race that I'm taking the fun out of it by making it a job? And so I really make a point to do fun runs, you know, we're just going out to have a good time. It's not about conditioning. It's not about training a new lead dog. It's not about anything. It's just about having a good time. When I think back to my most fun, mushing, it's when I was six and seven and I had one or two dogs tied to the front of a sled that used to slide down like a kid sled just for sliding down the snowbanks know, having one or two dogs on that just just traveling. It's the most pure simple joy if you were just bouncing through the forest, a kitten some dogs having fun. So I checked my mail regularly by dog team in the mailbox is about four miles away.

Nick VinZant 24:04

I forgot that's what Alaska is kind of like, right? Yeah. I kind of like this question. Besides dogs, what other animal do you feel like you could mush? Like, could you do like an elephant? The first

Dallas Seavey 24:17

one that pops into my head is reindeer. I've spent a fair bit of time yeah, in Norway and Scandinavia. I did the longest race in Europe, which is in the way far north of Norway. Twice. Back in 18 and 19. And they I mean, mushing or, I'm sure it's not called mushing, but driving reindeer is actually a thing. Russians do it. I've seen some videos they look a little bit sketchy to say the least. But um you know, they're Russians mushing are driving these reindeer teens and I don't know how well the reindeer are trained but it's it looks pretty rudimentary to me. And obviously appear there's a history with or elsewhere also, but you know, horse drawn carriages and things like that. But I saw There's one really cool picture in one of the local restaurants around here, and it's actually back in the early 1900s. And there is a moose that they had trained to pull a sleigh or carriage of some sort, which really surprised me, but they actually had like this moose pole and stuff. And that would be, that would be a challenge because that is very much a wild animal. And big, very large

Nick VinZant 25:24

for people who maybe haven't encountered moose is like those are, though that you do not fuck with a moose. No, that is way. It's basically like a small school bus. On like, every time I've seen one. Yep,

Dallas Seavey 25:39

they're shockingly large. But I will say there's few things as majestic in the wilderness as a big bowl most. There's one because I've grown up eating most right now. That's the meat I have in my freezer is is most. And the last one I got about the last one, one of the ones I got was about seven and a half feet tall to the shoulders. Just a standard doorway is six foot eight inches. So seven and a half feet tall. That's the shoulder of this thing. Yeah, they're massively large animal and they are our biggest concern, while mushing in, in the wintertime, that's the one animal that can give you problems and actually be aggressive towards the dog team. especially late in the winter, when there's deep snow, the moose, I feel for them, they've got a very rough life. But if the snow is deepest covered up all their food, if it's a really cold weather, or cold winter, they have no fat reserves left and they can be just running out of energy. And it's easy for them to, you know, Miss misinterpret a dog team for a pack of wolves, which is their main predator that time of year. So if they don't feel like they can run away, their next instinct is to turn and charge. So we're always on the watch out for most, and making sure that our team and moose don't have a bad interaction.

Nick VinZant 26:51

Okay, I don't know how to quantify this necessarily. But I've always heard that the I did rod is basically like one of the hardest things in the world, is it? Or is that kind of like, it's a little bit of media propaganda kind of stuff, I would have

Dallas Seavey 27:04

a hard time saying that's the hardest thing in the world. I mean, that's a pretty dang bold statement, look at the things that humans have survived, or done right. And in most of the most extreme things humans have done, they have not done it by choice, or they've done it in a situation where the other choice was death. But yeah, it is physically challenging. In a way that's different than let's say, like an Ironman Triathlon, which is a common thing that humans do electively that would probably be more difficult in an acute way, in a short term, or in the next 12, or 14 or 18 hours, I don't know how long it takes, is going to be absolutely brutal. But the other thing that they do in that time frame is you put your head down, you don't think you just go right. And you know that that and his insight is all done in less than a day, the dinner rod is strong out over such a long period of time. And there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of like, I don't know, if I can actually pull this off. Or if I can physically do this as as an individual myself, it's 50 below zero. And while the dogs have good hair, and they're designed for this, and they're burning all these calories, which produces a lot of heat, I am not developed to live in 55, below zero temperatures, so your feet are freezing. And there's this uncertainty and probably one of the more similar settings to put it in, in that case, would be more like special forces training, let's take you know hell week for seals, that would probably be a more similar setting where it's like, I don't know if I can complete this. And there's the real fear not that you would necessarily die. Of course, that is an option. But that you might not pass, it's more of a pride thing. You know, I may fail here, you're there's the uncertainty of I have to make decisions. And I don't know, even though I think I made the best decision, I don't know if that'll be enough to accomplish what I have in front of me. And then also there's the tactical decisions that we have to deal with. And you're getting hit with one decision after the next step to the next step to the next. And it starts to play well with you on a kind of an emotional level, especially when you're on low sleep very, very low sleep. And sleep deprivation has to be one of the most, you know, painful things or it is the most painful thing about this. And it is it hits humans very, very hard when you're on day seven and not sleeping. You're not yourself and all your facade and ego even the stuff you didn't think you had a facade or an ego or an image that you project all of that comes away and you were down to just you. And if you're not comfortable with who you are at the very core. It's a terrifying situation for a lot of people. And that's something that's really important with mushing and dogs. You have to be comfortable with who you are at the very base because it will be exposed and that's something that a lot of people don't ever turn and face. Secondly, the dogs see right through those facades, right you can do all the pump up hype for your humans because they understand the words you're saying the dogs don't understand the words they see the intent behind it. That

Nick VinZant 29:50

is true. You can't fool them. What's your favorite piece of musher lingo?

Dallas Seavey 29:55

It's simple. Well, when we're I'd say we're, we always end up like that. I'm gonna go broody, the dogs, because we're putting little shoes on their feet. That's a constant project, right, we put a each dog has four feet, and we got 14 of them in the team. So, though that's something we do before every run taking the booties off after the run, so probably booting dogs Wait, if

Nick VinZant 30:16

you got 10 dogs, it's 40 feet. Man, that's a lot. A lot of work.

Dallas Seavey 30:21

Yep. And, and that's, that's almost always what causes a little bit of frostbite for your for your hands, because again, our hands aren't designed to be, you know, uncovered at those temperatures. So especially if it's windy, even if it's only five or 10, below zero, which is reasonably reasonably warm here. The wind is the worst. So when I have to put those boots on and a stiff wind in any sort of cold temperatures, you feel your hands like dry out start to almost Yeah, basically start to freeze and your skin gets to be like real thin papery almost so any little nick on them will instantly become a cut as they become very brittle. And then you'll actually see on the backs of your hands kind of at this level below this knuckle and also above it. On each finger, you'll get a little football shaped welt where the wind is hitting the back of your hand as you're putting those boots on and create a welt across there. Just from basically frostbite that happens in a matter of seconds. You know it one particular year I'm thinking of 2009 we had a horrific storm on the Bering Sea coast. And it was both very, very cold and super strong winds. It effectively shut down the race for 18 hours until the wind started to lead up. But I was out there caring for the dogs I built like little snow forts around them to create a wind block. And I think the windchill factor in that was like 115, below zero, and exposed skin freezes basically instantly in those temperatures. And that's why we weren't moving or stopped down because it's just not safe to travel or move in those type of conditions. Despite the dogs. No the being evolved to live in these conditions. You know, they went from being wolves in Alaska to being domesticated wolves, aka the Alaskan Malamute to being modern day Alaskan Huskies and they never became a house dog they never left last, the traits and qualities that allowed them to be successful article Arctic survivors as wolves. So they are very well developed for these conditions. As humans. We didn't develop in these conditions. And so we're the ones who have to adapt and get better clothing and gear. And you know, wash your hands freeze the dogs, they're incredibly tough, and incredibly well adapted for this refer to this lifestyle. This is what they've been doing for 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of years.

Nick VinZant 32:30

That's pretty much all the questions I had man. Is there anything you think we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Dallas Seavey 32:36

Yeah, I would say the only thing that's left out there is you know, mushing is definitely not your mainstream sport. It's not on you know, ESPN every every Sunday. And you know, so this one if you do want to follow mushing and watch dog races, doing it online is definitely the best way and, and now that that's become more common, it's, it's, I guess, a little easier and more accessible for people. But you know, go to I did rod.com. That's the official, I did her on webpage, you know, and the I did, Ron is the World Championships. It is the biggest dog sled race out there, you're gonna see the best of the best teams show up at that race. It starts the first Saturday in March, and then leading up to the race all winter long. You know, social media is a great way to follow mushers in the process and learn more about it, you know, start to understand the individual dogs and what goes into developing them. And there's a lot of information like us, particularly that we try to put out, that helps people become a better steward to their dog or their pet. At the bottom of all of this, it's about the human animal connection, which I think is an awesome and sacred thing that you humans would not have developed in so many places around the world without the aid of animals. And that even just 100, definitely 200 years ago, your connection with animals was much closer, we depended on them, we relied on them. And that builds that really close tight bond. Nowadays, our relationship with pets is a convenience. It's a luxury item, we like to have a pet. But we don't have that super close bond as you would if you relied on that pet. So take for example, somebody who has a nice fluffy dog, it's a great dog, they come home from work, they patted on the head, say Good Dog, take it for a walk. There's a friendship, there's a relationship, but there's not a connection like there would be for somebody with their seeing eye dog. They rely on each other, that's going to be a much closer bond. So I guess what I would just say is, you know, check out the social media, Dallas CV on Facebook, and we'll get all the other platforms as well. The information is on the Facebook to go on YouTube and Instagram and Twitter and those ones. We have great fluffy Husky pictures, Puppy pictures, all that good stuff, but also information about you know, trying to develop that closer relationship with your pet to enhance that experience of the human animal connection, enhance the quality of life, your dog and your enjoyment of that pet as a human.

Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Most adult films are made for mainstream audiences. Producer Sinn Sage is not mainstream, her goal is to bring new visibility to sexual preferences that were once taboo. We talk lesbian love scenes, transgender pornography and creating custom clips for every corner of the fetish world. Then, we put fries and potatoes chips against hash browns and tater tots as we count down the Top 5 Potato Foods.

Sinn Sage: 01:43ish

Pointless: 34:36ish

Top 5: 55:41ish

http://www.sinn-sage.com (Sinn Sage Website)

http://www.instagram.com/realsinnsage (Sinn Sage Instagram)

http://www.twitter.com/sinnsage (Sinn Sage Twitter)

http://www.linktr.ee/sinnsage (Sinn Sage Linktree)

Interview with Queer Erotica Producer Sinn Sage

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, queer erotica, and Po, Tito's,

Sinn Sage 0:24

that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera. A big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to, I want to improve that like visibility. And I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the Internet, what makes it a good one, dedication and care to detail,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think one of the most powerful things out there is seeing somebody who looks like you who represents the group that you are in, depicted in a media that you enjoy. Because not only does that bring extra visibility and awareness, but I think it also shows you that there are other people like you, and then it's okay to be who you are. Our first guest does exactly that with adult films. This is queer erotica, producer, sin, sage. So you've starred in films for about 20 years. But when did you get into producing,

Sinn Sage 1:48

so I worked in pretty much mainstream lesbian porn. At that same time, I was getting a lot of emails and people were requesting custom videos from me. So I was like, you know, I think I should start learning how to do this and see about making my own content and making these custom videos because that's money being presented to me that I'm just walking away from. So I started very simply, and I even went on my Amazon wishlist and I asked for like a little baby video camera, a basic editing program and a single light and kind of went from there. Now it's a full on production company. And we still produce high quality custom videos, very specific to what people ask for.

Nick VinZant 2:39

So when you're producing a film, right, like what goes into that? Exactly, because in my mind, right, when we're talking about these kinds of films is like you get to people and camera and you go right, but obviously, it's more complicated than that. So what kind of goes into it?

Sinn Sage 2:55

Yeah, so that's, that's, I think, a really powerful and pervasive misconception about the creation of porn. I think a lot of people do think that it's just like two people who are hooking up and they're like, let's turn on a camera or something like that. But I think it's very clear from a lot of productions, that that's not what's going on, because everything looks great. Professional, mainstream sets are very much like any other movie set. It's just that instead of, I don't know, like, being John Wick, you know, you're here, two people having sex, or eight people or 10, you know, whatever.

Nick VinZant 3:33

When you like when you contract performers. How does that like? Are you looking for somebody specific? Do they contact you? Like, how does that process kind of fill out? Do you like, do they audition? No.

Sinn Sage 3:48

Not for not for me in my little studios? And generally no, we don't do like, there's not really an audition process for this type of stuff. A lot of people have agents, that these are more mainstream, bigger production companies. And at that point, it's more just based on what you look like. And then you go and do the performance and whoever you're working for is like, they're gonna decide that's not a great performer probably won't hire them again, or they're really great. We'll help them hire them a lot. I just connect with people on Twitter, like other performers on Twitter, and then I'm like, Hey, are you in Vegas? Sometimes it's just someone I've noticed on Twitter that I find attractive. Or maybe it's someone that I've heard of as being really good, a good performer. So I'll reach out to them or vice versa. And we just are like, cool, what, what kind of stuff do you want to make and when can we get together and pick a date. Also, the testing is obviously very important. We both have to go get tested. test is valid for two for 14 days, at which point you have to get another one.

Nick VinZant 4:54

I've always wondered that like so if somebody gets one right, and I don't think that there should be some massive stigma behind STIs are they like, this is something that exists in a lot of society? But are they? Are they essentially done in the industry?

Sinn Sage 5:06

Oh, God, no. So, yes, if you contract HIV, I would say you are essentially done in the industry. Um, I mean, you can work for yourself, you can do solo stuff, I mean, only fans is huge, like, you can still make a pretty good living, like not performing not working with other performers. Also, I can only speak from my experience, which is mainly like, it is queer, but there is a whole other side of the industry that is gay male, that I don't know as much about, so I'm not going to speak too much on it. But when it comes to the testing protocols, you know, and I think even still today, where we're at with HIV, that is a little bit stigmatized. I mean, if you are on the medication, and your viral load is down to zero, you cannot transmit it. You can't pass it on to others. So, you know, in those cases, we might need to revisit that at some point in the future, but the way things are now. Yeah, you want to be able to perform with other people.

Nick VinZant 6:08

Yeah, you specialize in queer content? How come you ventured into that specifically?

Sinn Sage 6:14

Oh, because I'm a queer person.

Nick VinZant 6:20

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're telling me.

Sinn Sage 6:26

So, uh, for me, it's just that, you know, when I got into the business, I was in a relationship with a sis male person. I was also very young. I've learned a lot about myself in the past 20 years, obviously. But, um, at that time, in that relationship model I was in, it wasn't even a question to me when I was like, Hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to get into this this work. I had told him when we first met, this is what I want to do. So he was aware. And then when I was moving forward into it, it wasn't even a question of, well, should I do boy girl, or should I not do girl it was just like, obviously, I'm not going to because I'm with my boyfriend. I'm not gonna fuck other dudes, but I kind of made it clear that I liked women that I was, you know, at that time, I think I identified as bisexual. So I knew that about myself. And I was like this, you know, at 18 I'm like, Well, is this okay? Like, you know, can I do this? You know, this is what I want to do with my life. Yeah. And so he's like, that's fine. You know, I don't mind. If you do scenes with women, that's cool. Um, for our relationship, it was terrible, toxic relationship on so many levels. But for me that that was how I got into the business. And then, when I finally was able to exit that relationship, I had already been doing this girl girl only lesbian work for, you know, eight or nine years. So I now have this freedom, right? To where I can make decide for myself, like, do I want to work with men now. And I have been on lots of sets of men, I had shot plenty of porn that had my net, like, done camera work for it. And I just wasn't, you know, it wasn't something that was enthusiastically like, yes, now I finally get to do this, I was just kind of more like, Okay, I'm going to consider this. I'm going to give myself some space from the breakup, it was very long relationship. And in that time, period, I think I just realized that it wasn't really for me to do boy girl. I felt that that was kind of the direction I wanted to stay on the path. I wanted to continue down, I expanded into working with trans people as well. So you know, for me, that's a big part of my identity is my queerness is my attractions to multiple different types of humans. And I want to I want to improve that like visibility and like, give a bigger platform for like our differences as people and I'm just like one piece of that, but I'm

Nick VinZant 9:04

in that regard, right? Would your career have been? I'll put this in air quotes. Easier if you did boy girl from the very beginning.

Sinn Sage 9:14

So I'm not gonna say it would have been easier, in fact, have been friends with like a million other sex workers and hearing lots of stories and stuff. I honestly think it would be more difficult doing boy girl, um, and I'm not gonna say that that I'm speaking for everyone. I'm only speaking for myself, but there's a lot more you have to deal with in and um, I think that it was easier for me. I definitely would have have made and to this day make more money. No doubt about it. If I did, boy girl. I don't know. To me. That's not the most important thing. I think the most important thing is like staying true to yourself and the things you want to do and the things you want to be doing

Nick VinZant 9:59

when For your content, like when you're making your queer content, are you making it for other queer people? Or is it for straight people that maybe want to watch two girls? There's probably a better way. I should rephrase that. But you know

Sinn Sage 10:14

what I mean? Yeah, um, I think I'm just trying to make content for all types of people to enjoy. So, when we talk, especially about like, lesbian porn, especially mainstream lesbian porn, I think that we talk a lot about the male gaze. And I've been on so many different sets that like, I can tell when I'm on a set, where it's like, Hey, we're just trying to showcase like two women who are into each other having sex. Versus, hey, we need to see you penetrating her pussy with fingers or something, or hand you a dildo and say, Here, stick this in her, because we are making porn for the male gaze, and they need to see these type of actions happening. So to me, that's the difference between the content that is made for specifically like a heterosexual male to watch. And that's fine. And there's a space for those things, but I'm trying to make stuff that is like, That guy can enjoy it. But also, LGBT people can see themselves represented in that like authentic desire that authentic passion.

Nick VinZant 11:33

I think like my wife would describe it as Loving versus fucking.

Sinn Sage 11:37

Haha. That's one way of putting it. Yeah, I mean, I think I love i do i make loving scenes, and I make fucking scenes. But with what you're saying is like, um, you can put it that way too. I think

Nick VinZant 11:53

it makes sense. Right? Like, okay, so for me, right, right, watching adult movies, like there's certain things that I can speak from my perspective as a straight male. Like, there's stuff that I want to see. Right? So when you make things that for, from the queer perspective, or there's those kinds of things to like, Okay, people who are queer, they want to see this, this and this. And I guess what are those things?

Sinn Sage 12:17

I don't think we can do that. With queer people. Because it's such a massive community. It's a huge portion of the population. Obviously, it's a minority, but it's still, there's so much fluctuation and nuance of what people like and what people want to see and what they enjoy. So, you know, really, I'm not trying to tick off any boxes. Here, just do it based on what I want, and what the other performers that I'm working with want, from my experience. And with my fans, like they, they like to see from over here, too, all the way over there. I mean, everything in the middle,

Nick VinZant 12:54

is there kind of right? Because, you know, the algorithm is the algorithm. Is there certain queer content that does better than other kinds?

Sinn Sage 13:05

What I know what sells for me the best is definitely my strap on content. But that's because people know me for that.

Nick VinZant 13:15

Man. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sinn Sage 13:17

Yeah. And they know that I do it very well. And I do it better than a lot of other people. So I think that they come to me for that specifically. And I will say as far as my career content, like that is what sells the best. And I won't be like trance transport is having like a huge moment right now. It's getting really big. And I'm so happy to know that because I think it's been relegated it's been sidelined for so long.

Nick VinZant 13:49

Give me some leeway asking this question. Because I'm going to try to actually ask it from like an honest place of curiosity and interest, but I feel like I'm going to phrase things the wrong way. So when we talk about like, trans porn, that's generally men in men, women in women, like, you know this better than I guess, can you explain? Right? Can you explain? Explain that to me,

Sinn Sage 14:18

so a trans trans woman, and then there's trans men. So trans just means like, opposite. So that's why we came up with the word sis for people who don't identify as trans for people that identify as the sex they were assigned at birth. Because this means same and trans means like, opposite or whatever. So.

Nick VinZant 14:43

So a trans woman may have been a assigned male first, a biological male that is identifies as a woman is that right?

Sinn Sage 14:55

Um, the word like we use the word biological like

Nick VinZant 15:00

this, yeah, it's sticky, right? Just say assists. Okay? Yeah, this where I kind of,

Sinn Sage 15:07

I'm gonna tell you. Okay, yeah, I will be someone who was assigned male at birth, or assigned female at birth. Okay. And so now they are that they're the opposite of that. So a trans woman was assigned male at birth. And now a trans man was assigned female at birth and now identifies as a man. And then of course, we have non binary people who fall somewhere in between.

Nick VinZant 15:39

Do you think that can feed that confusion about it? Yeah, does that kind of has that kept it? Like what kept it because obviously, these people, and I don't mean that in that kind of way. But obviously, trans people have been with us for a very long time. Oh, is it just now? Like, why is it just now that we can openly talk about,

Sinn Sage 16:00

oh my gosh, because, you know, even that sometimes it seems like they're like, We are now in an age where I think the internet has helped a lot with us, too. We're being made aware that people are different. And that that is okay. So, whereas in the past, I mean, God, just think about the 90s. Like, Ellen coming out was this huge fucking deal just for her to be able to say I'm gay, not gay people have always existed. But it has been demonized. villainize punishable by death. To this day, there are countries on this planet where if you are gay, and they find out you will be executed. So this thing about being different being wrong, and about not understanding someone being afraid, which turns to hate. So I think now that we're just like, we're trying to make progress. We're trying to make economic progress. We're trying to make racial progress. We're trying to make gender and sexuality like, be accepting of human beings for being who they are. And not like other them. And you know, I think that we're, it's amazing how far we've come. But anytime progress happens, there's this like, very powerful backlash. And so we're obviously seeing that too. But I think that's the reason why, like, we're talking about it now. Because it is becoming more acceptable to just be who you are, and celebrate that.

Nick VinZant 17:43

But have you do you continue to see backlash from the kind of content that you put out there? Right, are there still you go to you go to John Smith, the head of a major porn company? And he says, None in my watch?

Sinn Sage 18:01

Oh, no, because the thing about porn is they follow the money, and they don't give a fuck what it is as long as it's profitable. So, I mean, I think when it comes to transforming the issue, previously, in past times, has been more along the lines of just fetishizing it and making it like, this is the little area for like the weirdos. Whereas now we're just like, No, these are actual human beings, and they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Because now we have, like, even just look at the awards show categories, like trans awards are being added as categories in places where they weren't before. And trans people are kind of demanding representation in this industry in a way that they never had before. So this is a big shift that's happening here in this industry. And I hope that it's like spreading out into the world, because that's the bigger goal. And that's kind of like what I want to be using my platform to do is, you know, yeah, I'm using porn to, like, hopefully help make the world a better place.

Nick VinZant 19:10

No matter what, no matter what somebody says, right, those two kind of statements is like, you follow the money. There's a there's a level of honesty there at the very least, right? And

Sinn Sage 19:23

a positive side effects.

Nick VinZant 19:25

Right, right. Yeah. And everybody, you know, people could say like, well, is adult films, the best way to spread the message while everybody watches them?

Sinn Sage 19:35

If I can explain to you like, the types of emails that I get from people. It's Yes, of course, there are times that people are like, Oh, hot mama with amazing ass. I love to watch you fuck. Cool. Thank you so much. That's awesome. But then I get I mean, over the past, you know, 15 years or so like these emails that I get from a lot from women who are just like I never watched porn. because it all looked like it was made for guys, and all it's fake, then I found your work. And I can't tell you how you have made me feel more empowered and free to truly express myself and come out of the cloud, how people told me to come out of the closet from watching my work, and that they're like, on their way to a better life for themselves, just from like, following me and the things I do and say, on the internet. And so, to me, that's like, the most fulfilling part, like, the money is good, because it's nice to be able to feed myself and have a house and stuff, but but the part that like, nourishes my soul, is this kind of feedback from people. And they're just like, you know, it might seem like it's nothing or like, it's just entertainment to get off to or whatever. And, you know, there's a lot of that. But at the same time, there are some people who are connecting with it on a deeper level, and it's very, very meaningful for them. And it just bothers me that so many people in the world can just discount that experience that real experiences some people have,

Nick VinZant 21:10

are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Oh, yes. Love that. When as a producer, where do you generally make most of the money off of a film, I

Sinn Sage 21:21

mean, my main places where I sell my content are actually clip stores. So I sell them as like, it's, it's funny, just like, the terminology is weird. Like, so there's a film, when I hear film, I think of like a four scene movie, like, you put four scenes together, you call that a film, call that a movie. And I do make those, I sell them on my website. And I, you know, money's, okay, it's like a bit of extra every month, but like, most of my income comes from selling the scenes that I make, like individually in clip stores. And if you don't make the money off of like just the scene, really, it's the fact that I have, you know, like 800 clips in my stores. And so every month that adds up to like, a good amount, and I produce custom videos. So I would say that's maybe like a third of the income, just like so the customer paying me directly to produce the same for them of what they want. I also then sell those on my club stores. And then the fan sites, so the only fans, that would be the other place? I guess the answer that question is really like, there is not one place where I make the most money. My income comes from having my hand in like several different pots

Nick VinZant 22:49

for a clip, right, like a good selling clip, that would sell how many?

Sinn Sage 22:54

If I sell maybe, you know, 20 or more of a clip, I would say it's sold pretty well. But it depends on the price of the clip too. So for example, I have this one clip that I made when I was first making clips, and it's my cheapest clip ever I think I sold for I think the lowest you can charge is like 399. Um, and it's a very niche sort of fetish. And I've sold like, maybe 500 copies of that, maybe more, I don't even know. But I think that's because it was so accessible and cheap. But then I have a clip, you know, that's maybe like 30 bucks, because it's like a 40 minute like lesbian clip with all different sex acts and stuff like that. You know, and so, if I only sell five of those, well, that's okay. Because it was more expensive clip.

Nick VinZant 23:48

It's a numbers game at the end. Yeah.

Sinn Sage 23:52

It's like this gaping hole. It's like a sarlacc pit if you know Star Wars, and you just have to, like throw content into it. And it is hungry, and it needs to be fed multiple times a week, and you just do it. You just gotta keep pumping out the content. And that's how you make a sustainable living.

Nick VinZant 24:13

Do you ever feel like oh my god, I can't have sex anymore though.

Sinn Sage 24:17

I think I'm just excited to be having sex with someone.

Nick VinZant 24:23

I think we all feel like that at the end of the day, no matter what your gender or sexuality or just all excited to be having sex with you and we all have that in common and we can cherish that and move forward as society a favorite type of scene.

Sinn Sage 24:41

My favorite type of scene is really just working is when the other performer is as into me as I am into them. So I like oh, and other performers like enthusiastic when they're like excited to be working with me. Man, especially when they just like say one nice thing about me being because listen, every time I approach a scene with a with another performer, I'm like, Oh my God, I hope they think I'm like pretty enough to be having sex with or I hope they think I'm, you know, like, hot enough or whatever. Like, I always still feel like shit, man, I can't believe I get to do this, like, so. Anytime they can give me a little a little nugget that says it like they want to be doing this with me, then I'm like, Yes. And those are my favorite types of

Nick VinZant 25:37

men most What is your most frequent request? Oh,

Sinn Sage 25:42

like strap on? For sure. Yeah, okay, that's probably it.

Nick VinZant 25:47

I think this for the same person to your most interesting request.

Sinn Sage 25:51

I've done a lot of really weird and interesting customs. Um, one of them, for example, was this German fellow, and he wanted another girl and myself in lingerie, and we put on rubber dish gloves. And we have like a bucket of soapy water. And then we have these little Monster High dolls are kind of like, like mini Barbie kind of dolls. And we like punch and slap the dolls. And when we twist their hair, the dolls are like, that's how they get off sexually. And we're also dunking them in the water. And like abusing them kind of. And that was like a 30 minute video. And then the second one he got was basically the same thing. But then he also wanted us to cook eggs on the stove. And I guess, like taught the dolls that they didn't get to have any of the eggs.

Nick VinZant 26:55

There is no limit to my personal opinion. As long as you're not hurting people against their will, however you get down is however you get down

Sinn Sage 27:04

100% As long as everyone consents to it, I don't. Yeah, I really don't care. As long as it's all consenting adults, you go ahead and do it. And you asked me to make a custom. And I have no problem doing that.

Nick VinZant 27:18

Well, I guess when was the last time though, that you like you were surprised? Like who? I had never heard of that before?

Sinn Sage 27:24

10 or 10 years ago?

Nick VinZant 27:27

Oh, good. Point, right. Yeah,

Sinn Sage 27:29

I would say that that. Just what the dish glove one that I just described described to you. I had never heard of that before. So that was maybe five years ago. But at the same time, too. There are like little fetishes within that video that I did. I have heard of and made lots of like, you know, I kind of figured it's all psychological, right? So in in my head, I'm like, Okay, this guy's mom used to do dishes with these rubber dish gloves. And so that's why he likes the squeaky sound. And he wanted us to use Monster High dolls because he wants to pretend like we're giant Tess's. And that's like a very common fetish. So you know, I'm just kind of piecing together a little things to sort of understand what we're making. So even though it's not, for me, um, I think that's why we make pretty good custom videos is because we try to understand like, what it is that the fan is asking for, sometimes the quote unquote normal customs are like the most boring ones for me to make, or just not interesting. You know, a Goi is like a jerk off instruction. And I made so many of those and they're very tedious and they're all the same and that's boring.

Nick VinZant 28:48

This one, okay, I don't know if you do this or not, but this person send this thing in. What's better? Okay. I was raised not to say this word. So I can literally not get this word out of my mouth. But it starts with See, there's

Sinn Sage 29:04

always a concern. Yes. My favorite word.

Cancer. I was like,

Nick VinZant 29:11

I wonder where's that? But that kind of busting or ball busting?

Sinn Sage 29:18

Well, I so I don't make ballbusting videos because I don't have a model. So I would need a male model who was okay with getting kicked in the balls. But I don't get asked for that either. So it's not like I don't make them because I have a problem with it. I've done it. I've performed in ballbusting videos before spine. And it's wild. Like to me that is wild. Like man, I keep this guy and he's like, Do it harder. Do her. I'm like, okay, and I keep him so hard in the balls. Like he started bleeding. He's like, you're fine. You're fine. You're fine. I was just like, fucking Wow, this is insane. But I'm like, as I want to come back the videos we make. I mean I believe that our studio makes the best combusting videos that are available on the internet.

Nick VinZant 30:07

How do you make what makes it a good one?

Sinn Sage 30:12

A dedication and care to detail, we do close ups of the the action. And we get facial reactions, we add in sound effects. So like so my husband is my editor, a lot of combusting companies like leave one of these things out. But we do it all. So we get several angles of a particular kick or punch. And then we have facial reactions. So there's a lot of action is very dynamic. And then takes my husband anywhere from three to six hours to edit one of those because he is literally sitting there going like frame by frame for each connection that happens. And putting in like different kickin punch sound effects, like they're all different. And it just, it makes it look like a real movie, you're getting that real experience out of it. And then like when we we do the kicks, it's always barefoot. And we do make connection. But it's there's like, it's basically, I also produce a lot of like a wrestling and fighting type of content as well. And you just learn. It's like doing stunt work. It's like being a stunt worker, or whatever. So you learn techniques and ways of pulling your punches, pulling your kicks. So it's like they do make contact, but you're not going like full force. So it just looks really real. And I got in that sound effect. That sounds really real, the reactions are really real. And so yeah.

Nick VinZant 31:57

Is it from it now? Who's wanting to see it? Or the men wanting to see it? Or do the women want? Like good? Is it for men or for women?

Sinn Sage 32:05

We're talking about a very specific fetish. So the people who, like I'm not producing this for myself, and I'm not producing this like to be like, hey here for mass consumption, I guess, right? I'm producing for people who specifically go to a site like clips for sale, and they type in the search bar cut bussing, and that is what they want to see. I would say, if I were to guess it's 99.5%. A male audience.

Nick VinZant 32:41

That's honestly pretty much all the questions that I have is kind of what's what's coming up next for you.

Sinn Sage 32:47

Yeah, so Okay, so my studio produced a trans lesbian movie called sins, trans lesbian lovers. And that came out, I want to say like September, and that got nominated for an AVN award. So that was very exciting. Um, I will say that is my first production of a film that I made, that has gotten nominated for an avian award. I've won two avian awards, but that was my work as a performer. So do not think I have a chance of winning because I'm up against, you know, studios that have $20,000 cameras and shit, but just the fact that like, I'm getting that recognition as a creator and a performer for that film is very special to me. So that's very exciting. Those awards take place at the end of January. Um, and beyond that, I don't know. Whatever. I got my only fans going on, I put content on there every single day. I'm producing content and clips all the time for my many vids store, and my clips for sale store. And my website is sin dash sage calm. And that is where you can go and inquire about custom videos. I have an FAQ. It's very extensive answers all the questions about customs and a form you can fill out. There's information about all the films that I've been there, too. And, um, yeah, I think that's it.

Futurist Richard Yonck

How will the world change in 2022 and beyond? Futurist Richard Yonck joins us for a revealing look at the new technologies and trends that will shape the future. We talk Digital Humans, Biotechnology, Artificial Emotional Intelligence and manipulation by Algorithms. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things That Should End in the New Year.

Richard Yonck: 01:50ish

Pointless: 35:20ish

Top 5: 50:55ish

https://intelligent-future.com (Richard Yonck Website)

https://www.facebook.com/IntelligentFuture (Richard Yonck Facebook)

https://twitter.com/ryonck (Richard Yonck Twitter)

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Machine-Artificial-Emotional-Intelligence/dp/195069111X (Heart of the Machine - Book)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1948924382 (Future Minds - Book)

Interview with Futurist Richard Yonck

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, we look into the future and count down the things we don't want to see in 2020. To

Richard Yonck 0:26

some of this, this is kind of an expansion of an area, we'll call digital humans, the idea that we've got more and more representations of ourselves in the world. In the current decade and beyond, we're going to see more and more kind of almost partnerships with a robot or other form of automation in the workplace, so that we're working side by side, this, the phrase for this that's often used is called Cobots, or a robot co worker, some of my biggest fears probably have a lot to do with algorithmic influence, these systems have the potential to, if not themselves, manipulate us be able to be used by other people to manipulate us.

Nick VinZant 1:13

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So the big question in this episode, what does the future have in store for us in 2022? And beyond? Our first guest studies exactly that everything from digital humans and emotional intelligence, to algorithms biohealth and the role that artificial intelligence will play in the coming decades. This is futurist Richard Young, moving into 2022. What do you essentially see ahead for us this year, and kind of in the immediate future,

Richard Yonck 1:56

there's really, from my standpoint, so many different fields, so many different considerations. So I'll talk about things like artificial intelligence. And right now we've got an enormous amount of advancement being made in voice tech, and different aspects of being able to incorporate voice as interface but also voice as a means of supplementing human workforce and human intelligence. Some of this, this kind of an expansion of an area will, we'll call digital humans, the idea that we've got more and more representations of ourselves in the world in the workplace, certainly increasingly in the metaverse, cyberspace, whatever we want to call it, in which we will be able to have representatives of ourselves some pretty rudimentary right now. But over time, they'll have be able to be our emissaries essentially be able to perform certain basic routine tasks, know what our preferences are, whether that's booking a flight for us, or, you know, even something is as currently complex as performing in an interview for us.

Nick VinZant 3:23

And you know, for me, like looking at this from a complete outsider's perspective, I guess, like what's the point? Like, what, what are we what's the goal of creating this kind of virtual selves?

Richard Yonck 3:34

Definitely a valid question. In terms of creating a world, a virtual world, there's a lot of hype, a lot of tech interest, where you have this plan, this desire to create an alternate form of reality, that thing is that a lot of people push back on this and say, you know, I mean, here, we're, we're trying to create this alternate reality, we're actually I creating a more space, more distance between ourselves, we're creating new ways of essentially distancing ourselves from human contact and human interaction. So that's definitely a negative and definitely a reason why this would be not necessarily as everything everybody wants it to be. On the other hand, as a, in a business use case, the opportunity to create things like digital humans, digital avatars, that can represent us and be used for performing various routine and repetitive tasks in the workplace, can increase efficiency and and it's essentially really reduced the number of people that are needed to perform a particular task right now we're we're seeing a real disconnect in terms of the number of people who are available to work and the number of jobs. They're not meshing, or we have a lot of gap there. And one of the ways that this is, unfortunately going to be addressed by some business, is through increased automation.

Nick VinZant 5:26

How soon do you think that's going to happen? Like when you look for the rest of the 2020s? What do you kind of see coming?

Richard Yonck 5:33

Parts of it are already happening? It's mostly a question of how good is it? Is it going to be dependable enough that you can put it into a, a work environment a decade from now? Oh, yeah, I would anticipate that we will see a lot of this.

Nick VinZant 5:51

And when we talk about chatbots, we're kind of talking about the idea of the thing like you do the Hey, I've got a problem with this company. You talk to this thing it like you put in the answer, and you get an answer immediately back like that kind of thing. But instead of having an obvious computer, it would be like me, giving those answers. Right

Richard Yonck 6:09

now you might see an image, it might be photographically realistic, it may be something more cartoonish, that is meant to kind of help suggest that this is a person to person interaction. And that it kind of tweaks some of what Sherry Turkle of MIT used to call our so called our Darwinian buttons, essentially, we are design, one of the earliest things we did as a species was developed language and a means of interacting with each other through emotional and visual cues, a lot of nonverbal cues, and so forth. So to have visual avatars that, continue that or extend that will essentially make us feel more and more like we are engaging with another person. And we fall into that habit very, very easily,

Nick VinZant 7:05

we will feel more like we're engaging with a real person, but it will be less of a real person that we're engaging with the same time, correct.

Richard Yonck 7:13

These are basically statistical models. They're simply connecting words and strings of words and phrases together, based on statistics. So there's no awareness there.

Nick VinZant 7:25

When you kind of look into the future. Are we more poised now? For a bigger change than we have been in the past? How close are we to the next big thing,

Richard Yonck 7:36

the next big thing is always around the corner. And you never know exactly when it's going to happen. If you're speaking about AI, and so forth, we're still quite some ways out from let's just say something that is it, artificial general intelligence, or something very self aware, and so forth. That's still many, many decades away. In terms of just technological development, and innovation, every single day, there's so much out there, and there's so many things that everyone is doing. Knowledge has a tendency to self reinforce, create self reinforcing loops. And so all of a sudden, we're able to do things with our knowledge of genetics. And by using AI and bioinformatics to start mining and finding out new ways to generate new drugs, treatments, therapies, and so forth. This coming decade is going to be huge for biotechnology and healthcare, digital healthcare. So this is definitely a time in which we're going to see enormous innovation over the course of really the coming decades. I don't foresee it slowing down, if anything, it will accelerate,

Nick VinZant 8:52

has COVID changed any of that? Did COVID Speed it up? Pause it have no difference at all, like what do you think

Richard Yonck 9:01

when COVID hit, it accelerated a number of technologies and really put the brakes on a number of others. So that right there, you know, shows you how things that occur in the in our world in our environment that maybe aren't necessarily anticipated can skew the direction that technology and other trends are developing. So, to be more specific, we saw an enormous advancement in areas like you know, remote technologies, the things like teams and zoom and everything else. They really went to town, expanding their capabilities in the during that period. Some of the abilities to deal with situations remotely, whether that's you know, various forms of of the Every drone work and so forth, these advanced. On the other hand, during that time, certainly we saw a huge drop off early, early COVID, at least in things like, for instance, rideshare. Some of it is about the industries, some of it is about the technologies that are considered to be viable to roll out during that time.

Nick VinZant 10:19

What do you think is kind of going to be the next big technology

Richard Yonck 10:23

AI is permeating everything is what what people don't a lot of people don't recognize is that AI is here, AI is everywhere. And it every time it rolls out in some new fashion and is incorporated into various devices in our environment, various parts of our environment, we think it's all very cool, very new, for a very short period of time, it gets good, and then it kind of disappears into the environment. It's part of our background. And it's, it's pervasive, it's there, but we don't think about it, a bunch of the things that go on in our cars, things that go on in our homes, the applications that we use on the computer, all of these are using various aspects and forms of AI, some of them are going to continue to get more intelligent, some of them, there's not much point in in adding to it. But the fact is that over the course of this decade, and the next we're going to see a range of deep learning technologies, forms of machine learning come out and be used in pretty much everything in our world. So just expect that that's going to become more and more a part of our world, and much of it will become less aware of overtime.

Nick VinZant 11:44

Is this going to be stuff though, that's like ultimately going to be good for society? Or is this going to be stuff that, you know, we we go to the lowest common denominator. And what I mean by that is like we invented the internet. And we could use it to have all of the information at our fingertips. But instead, we kind of use it to snipe at people on Twitter, right? Like, is this? Is this going to be good for society kind of things, or

Richard Yonck 12:09

it's an ongoing issue? And a very important question to be asking social media, certainly the internet, they didn't turn out quite the way people expected or wanted. And one of the things that I advocate is that we have incorporate more of a technology assessment in the early design processes of of these new innovations. Because this allows us to can allow us to try to anticipate and overcome some of the different kinds of issues we see with new technologies.

Nick VinZant 12:50

Yeah, and no, I think that a lot of the things that we would kind of naturally talk about are summed up in some of our listeners questions, so I want to jump into them. This this one, I think kind of hits it the thing that we were just talking about, are we creating something we don't understand?

Richard Yonck 13:05

That's a very big question. Are we creating something we don't understand? Absolutely. We are continuously in the process of in the course of building the world, building the future, we create things we don't understand all the ways that will be utilized all the ways it will develop the unanticipated consequences of it. When people Jenner developed the automobile, the early gas engine, they did not anticipate the way that it was literally going to transform our, our cities, our country, our environment. If cars didn't exist, our cities would have an entirely different configuration. And things like as simple as you know, how we lay out streets or pathways, how we have, you know, commit enormous amounts of space to parking and so forth. All these things. Were never foreseen at that time. This happens with every single technology.

Nick VinZant 14:18

When will the future look really different? And I think what they mean by that is like if I were to get into a time machine, like how far in advance would I have to go or be like, Oh, this doesn't even look like earth anymore. Like I don't recognize this.

Richard Yonck 14:32

If you could have looked down on the earth in 1900, we would with enough resolution, we would be able to definitely tell that this is a very transformed world. Part of it is what what the expectation is and as with other kind of forms of thinking imagery, what have you resolution So the more detail we look at, the more things have transformed and changed. As I say, AI is pretty much everywhere it's it. But if you don't know what to look for, if you aren't able to appear into the workings of a particular technology to understand or to see that you don't know that that's going on our world has transformed and is transforming rapidly in terms of it becoming what I typically refer to as more and differently intelligent. There's a growing preponderance of machine intelligence, some of it is skewed and biased. And this is transforming our world. Depending on what you're looking at. You could say that the world transforms almost unrecognizably ill in as little as a decade, think about what the world was like before social media.

Nick VinZant 16:01

What are we getting first flying cars are jetpacks.

Richard Yonck 16:06

We've got both jetpacks are actually kind of useful and cool. In a, there's definitely being incorporated more and more by the military. There's some real benefits there. Flying cars, we're getting into something that's kind of different there. From the standpoint, we can engineer almost anything except that at this stage, it's down to within the laws of physics, it's down to economics, for the most part, when you talk about a flying car, if you mean the Jetsons, where it is a something that has no apparent, you know, method of thrust. That's, yeah, that's gonna be a long time. If you're talking about something that's basically a personalized airplane, or helicopter or a quadcopter, or what have you, there's some thought about that being appealing to people who have considerable wealth to kind of skip around some of the traffic jams and problems in an urban environment and so forth. That is a different matter and gets into a range of issues around inequality problems of what happens when certain parts of society for go, you know, the what everyone else has to use. Does that is that to the detriment does that lead to deterioration of those services and so forth. So that's a big problem. But down to the real issues and and of having cars just kind of flying through the air on a hill, almost like another level of traffic, human beings did not evolve to navigate a three dimensional space, we've always pretty much occupied to possibly two and a half dimensions. We aren't fliers. So there's two problems with that we really make mistakes really quickly. So we've got to turn all of that over to AI to and that's got to have gotten to the point where that's really good. But any small accident you have a fender bender on the freeway, okay, you pull over, you have a fender bender in the sky, it's a catastrophic failure, and you fall. That's to your detriment. And it's a big problem for the city below. So there, you get into regulation liability, the insurers are not going to let that happen. I was

Nick VinZant 18:45

thinking about that I was traveling over Thanksgiving and less like thinking, Could you imagine if all these cars were just flying all over the place? Like it would be a nightmare? Yeah, well, will robots take over the world,

Richard Yonck 18:58

some people would say they already have. They will not take over the world in the IP for a very, very long time, in the sense of a Skynet Robopocalypse Terminator type style takeover. On the other hand, there's the economics of using robotics wrote using robots to supplement the workforce. In the current decade and beyond. We're going to see more and more kind of almost partnerships with a a robot or other form of automation in the workplace so that we're working side by side with technologies that are increasingly intelligent and increasingly able to perform certain tasks that they can do better than we can either through because of the repetition speed. What have you this? The phrase for this that's often used is called Cobots. Or it's like a Robot, sorry AI robot co worker. And this idea is pretty much we're developing in a slow evolutionary pace at this point. But it's increasingly how we work. We use technology all the time in the in our work in our environment, you know, different applications, certain amounts of AI that do analysis for us, and so forth. This just a further extension of this into the physical space. And certainly, we're already seeing this in warehouses, and other kinds of manufacturing and so forth.

Nick VinZant 20:38

In terms of biohealth, what do you think will be happening in that arena? Like, where do you think the changes are going to be there?

Richard Yonck 20:46

Right now, we are on the verge of an enormous amount of innovation and advancement in biotechnology, we have had the ability to sequence human, the human genome in detail for a couple of decades now. So it's taking a lot of time, but we're figuring out some really interesting approaches, and gaining new knowledge about how our bodies work, how biology works. And so we're getting some new, you know, incrementally new ways to deal with cancers through immunotherapy, what's we have to be very careful of, is creating problems for ourselves or future generations through the misuse of that genetic manipulation at this point, we have different tools like CRISPR. With that, potentially, we have the ability to make changes to the gametes, the the eggs and sperm that ultimately lead to the next generations, even if that is changed or manipulated, that can go really, really wrong. And the problems may not show up for generation,

Nick VinZant 22:10

what is your safest prediction for the future? What is your boldest prediction for the future? Like so bold, that if you're around like all your futurist buddies, like you're not even going to say it. It's so bold, that like they're gonna laugh in the fighting suggested, but what is your boldest and your safest prediction?

Richard Yonck 22:31

safest predictions easy, the sun comes up tomorrow. So the expectation that all aspects of the future are unknown or unknowable. It really runs through a whole gamut, a spectrum of certainties, the one that's out there, there has been speculation that somehow or another, we're going to have an ability to interact with the past. At some point, I find this highly unlikely. But if you extrapolate that long into the future, then at some point down the road, you could potentially have a version of our version of our society or civilization affecting change. In the past, I find that almost almost impossible. Ah, okay. There's one I definitely dispute. Okay. The concept that we are living in a simulation. There are people who have talked about this. I think, Musk, I'm not sure if Max Tegmark said something similar, but you know, on the order of 50% likelihood that this is we are in fact living in a simulation, I am going to go with the far more specific prediction that there is a far less than 1% chance we are living in a simulation. It's possible. But that's my prediction. It's very, very, very unlikely.

Nick VinZant 24:08

I don't even want to like think about that. I don't even want to think about it. Right, that I've always wondered, you know, like, what's why? What's the reason that some people think we are living in a simulation like where's the

Richard Yonck 24:23

no proof. So this is one of the big problems with it. It's not falsifiable in any way that I've been able to figure out.

Nick VinZant 24:30

Let me follow up that excellent point by a movie or TV show that you feel has the most accurate depiction of the future.

Richard Yonck 24:37

I love these things for entertainment, but I am simply not going to say any of them are really good representations of our reality, and certainly not yet.

Nick VinZant 24:48

Did you think we'd be farther ahead by now?

Richard Yonck 24:51

Hmm, great question. And very general. Thank you. So did, there have been definitely times Over the years and decades where I've looked at the top explored things and thought, yeah, we'll be at this stage at this point, and we're not. So early 2000s, we had predictions and some pretty accurate ones, that we were going to start seeing autonomous vehicles in around 2017 or so. They're not out there in the form, quite the way we would have thought that wasn't going to be like, Oh, they're going to take over the roads. But the technology is there, the technology developed, and we're at currently, what SAE talks about the Society of Automotive Engineers, talks about is level four autonomous vehicles, we won't see true autonomous vehicles, till probably 2030 or beyond. And I think that that's probably going to be pretty accurate. In terms of where I think I thought, at certain stages that certain aspects of artificial intelligence and its ability to have more contextual understanding would be further along at this point, we're moving into a stage that has been referred to as a third wave of AI, that some of this is developing into projects that are developing more and more capability of reasoning common sense. One shot learning or learning more like human beings do, in in these systems. And we're going to see that advanced quite a bit over the next decade or two. But I think I thought some of that was going to be here a little faster than it was,

Nick VinZant 26:53

correct me if I'm wrong on this. But the thing that I've always heard of like describing AI, and the challenges with it, is that you can teach a computer perfectly, how to play chess, all the strategies, all the stuff, but it can't then take all that knowledge and use it to play checkers. Like it can't think the way that we can where we can take lessons from one thing and transition into another thing.

Richard Yonck 27:17

Sure. Right now, when you talk about that example, we're talking about neural networks, these are systems that over the past couple of decades have gotten really good at certain very specific tasks, they take an enormous amount of training, lots and lots of data. And once trained, they can perform very, very well. There is when they are when the attempt is made to retrain, something occurs that's called catastrophic for catastrophic, forgetting that I'm not sure that's quite right. But anyway, the point is, it loses pretty much most of what it has learned or all of what it's learned, because it's not actually learning. So one of the things that's in this new third wave that is being worked on is to be able to accrete knowledge to to build on prior knowledge to inform what comes after. And that's what much more like what we do today. The other aspect of all of that, I've written a couple of different books about the future of artificial intelligence, future minds and heart of the machine. And in the heart of the machine, I explore the future of what's known as emotional, artificial emotional intelligence or emotion AI. This is these are technologies that can read and interact with human emotion. Now, that technology could one day lead to some very, very important aspects of increased intelligence in our machines, because one of the things that really informs a lot of our, in our intelligence is how we place value on in the world. If you based on your emotions, you know what, to look at what to pay attention to, at any given time, if I'm that chess playing computer, or robot in a room, and I'm playing away, performing excellently and beating the pants off of the human that I'm playing against, and that room catches on fire that the human is going to get up and leave probably rapidly and with a little bit of emotion about it, that program or that robot, or that computer is pretty much going to likely sit there and stay it doesn't have any means of recognizing that its environment. It's what the values have changed in its conditions, and it needs to be able to change its mission based on that.

Nick VinZant 30:11

What scares you what gives you hope?

Richard Yonck 30:14

The future gives me hope. So the future, as far as I'm concerned, is about potential. The future is what ultimately we are all striving toward. We don't, we may be able to remember the past, but being able to interact with anticipate and direct our present day actions to build a generated better future is really what gives us power as a species. Some of my biggest fears probably have a lot to do with algorithmic influence the idea that as we develop these systems as we interact more and more with these technologies, right now in the form of social media platforms, but potentially, later on in terms of other forms of power, environment, AI in our environment, these systems have the potential to, if not themselves, manipulate us be able to be used by other people to manipulate us. That's enormously problematic. It literally gets to a stage where you can look at it and talk about it, undermining freewill very significantly. So I think that's probably my one of my biggest, long term concerns is algorithmic influence.

Nick VinZant 31:39

Do you feel like we're already there? I

Richard Yonck 31:42

think we're on the road.

Nick VinZant 31:45

Yeah, it doesn't like because now I'm hearing about things where like, like, they can tailor this political message to this exact group, tailor this political message to this exact group, even though that group wouldn't necessarily have voted for that candidate. And if it wasn't for this thing, right? Well, you're just you're just become so specific.

Richard Yonck 32:04

Definitely things like that. But I think more nefarious, for lack of a better word right now, is the problem that if you have a system that is able to read and interact with you, whether it's through visual cues, eventually emotional awareness of these systems, and so forth, the ability for them to change their strategy, change script, highly rapidly based on the feedback from us. This creates a feedback loop, one that we in which we effectively become what's known in programming or in, in computer science, as an optimization problem. You want the person to click and click and click again. Okay, well, let's feed them A and B, oh, they click more on B, well, let's do that, again, with another set A or B. And you just keep doing it. And you keep and this is basically how something like Facebook works. That you extend that kind of thinking that kind of potentially manipulation into I mean, the ability to basically turn us into a, an algorithm for profit.

Nick VinZant 33:31

That's pretty much all the questions that I got, man, is there anything you think that we missed or anything like that? Hmm.

Richard Yonck 33:39

As I say, if we can imagine that we can build it, if we can take responsibility for the future that we want to see built, we can build that too. But what we have to do along the way, is not just assume that every single new thing is good. We have to be willing to assess as we go along. And in the aftermath, in order to try to protect the kind of future not just that we create for ourselves, but that we leave for future generations.

Nick VinZant 34:16

Oh, let me ask you this, like what's kind of coming up next for you? I know you got some books out

Richard Yonck 34:20

working on the next book, but yes, always out there doing keynotes for different conferences, consulting for business, and certainly writing articles and, and books. So that's kind of my gig. And that's going to continue to be the case for a good number of years yet.

Dating and Trauma Therapist "So My Mom's a Therapist"

From Dating and Relationship struggles to dealing with Anxiety, Trauma and Depression, Lisa with “So My Mom’s a Therapist” has quickly become a trusted voice for hundreds of thousands of people online. We talk dating difficulties, couples counseling, dealing with social anxiety and trauma recovery. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Christmas Characters.

Lisa: 01:59ish

Pointless: 30:13ish

Top 5: 50:39ish

https://www.instagram.com/somymomsatherapist/ (Lisa’s Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@somymomsatherapist (Lisa’s TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvOaBpMIiAY (Lisa’s YouTube)

somymomsatherapistpodcast@gmail.com (Lisa’s Email, Podcast Coming Soon)

Interview with “So My Mom’s a Therapist”

Nick VinZant 0:10

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, therapy insights, and the best Christmas characters

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 0:23

is I think, actually, it's worse now than it was even a year ago that we're really seeing the fallout now, I think people are looking for a placeholder for their anger. And it has more to do with them being hurt. And so I have a tendency to turn to the people that are so angry and bitter and say, I'm so sorry for what you were hurt. I'm so sorry. Whoever hurt you, that got you to a place that you hate them that much. Because that's the real issue. Our bodies are wired, are wired to put out fires, not to plant flowers. But where we need to go is we need to work how do I intentionally build things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, to offset the hard things in life, and that's when life starts to feel really good. I want

Nick VinZant 1:01

to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So we all know that we're dealing with difficult times, there's a lot of people who are struggling with a lot of different things. And there should be no shame, or stigma attached to that in any way. If somebody says that they need help. Our first guest is a dating and trauma counselor who specializes in dating and relationships, anxiety, stress, and depression. And over the last few months, she has gained a large social media following by really giving people good advice, actionable advice that might change their lives. This is Lisa, who's best known by her account name. So my mom's a therapist. Want to ask you this question first? How does somebody know when they need to go into therapy or when they should go and see a therapist.

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 2:07

So if you are not functioning super well, you're having a hard time doing the things that you need to do to make life happen, eating sleeping relationships showing up for your job, right? If you're feeling like you're just primal functioning is not working? Well, for sure. That's a yes. But a good portion of it is just really navigating life. So I'll have people too, who just want another set of eyes, helping them navigate life, especially because I work with a lot of teenagers and 20. Somethings just needing help needing help and needing direction. Or if you feel like you're not thriving in life, there's a difference between surviving and thriving. And if you feel like you're not thriving in life, that's another reason to reach out to Becky, there's got to be more than this. This is This can't be it.

Nick VinZant 2:47

So I'll use an example from my life, somebody who recently started going to therapy. But it was such a gradual thing, that they didn't really notice it until all of a sudden, I was like, oh my god, like I need help. Like, how do you notice the thing you don't notice and know that you need to get help?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 3:05

You know, I think that's one of the this is probably the one probably one of the biggest questions I get asked is like, how do I get my husband to go to therapy? How do I get my child to go to therapy, and you can't force somebody. And that's the hard part is because until you are at a place where you're willing to or you're recognizing or you're able to take the steps to come in, it's pointless to get somebody there anyways. Because I know what kind of work goes on in the room. And you kind of have to be in a place where you're ready to say, I'm aware of this, I see it. Okay, now I need to do something because honestly, it's hard work. It is hard work. So what you can do, if you have people around you, you can just gently point things out, you know, I noticed, I noticed you're having a hard time or you know, I'm noticing this is not it's not working super well for you. Or if you're in a relationship with them saying, you know, this is not working well for me. And I know this isn't working well for you. But I'm not sure we can help ourselves here. And I use that we language too. So it's not like I'm attacking somebody.

Nick VinZant 4:01

Have you seen a difference kind of in the number of people and the concerns that people have coming to you in the last couple of years? You know, everybody says the pandemic it's such a difficult time. But are you seeing changes in people's behavior?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 4:14

Oh, I mean, it is a it's a conversation daily with colleagues. I actually I don't have anybody to refer to right now. Because everybody I would refer to as waiting lists. I have a waiting list. I'll take only really complicated cases at this point. And I work probably way more than I should because it is I think actually it's worse now than it was even a year ago that we're really seeing the fallout now. And it's one of those things I think takes us a little bit to catch up with even people that felt like they were doing like they liked COVID teenagers or 20 Somethings or like yeah, their little social anxiety cells were like, Oh, we get to go indoors. We don't have to be around people and I would say well, that works until it doesn't 12 So now you have to go out and be around people again and it's like 100 fold. So really seeing a lot of kids that are really struggling you really, really struggling? Usually out of my caseload, I'll have like, one or two that are like suicidal, I now carry about five or six. So and I know I'm not an anomaly. So I think we're really taking a huge toll on people we are, we are meant to be around people. We are tribal. We are, we are relational. And if we are not around people physically around people feeling energy, it greatly impacts our mental health greatly.

Nick VinZant 5:24

I have some people in my life that have struggled with it, but then they've withdrawn so into themselves, that they almost can't go back into the world. What advice would you give to somebody that's like, Okay, how do I, how do I start dating again? How do I go to work and have to see people again, like that? I know that like, that might not sound like a difficult thing. But I think for some people that really is,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 5:48

oh, no, it really is, oh, it really I think, started we need to search as validating it. And that's where I start with like, well, hold on, like, this is hard, it is hard. And I really give it like the space, it needs to be like this is really hard. And sometimes people will beat themself up for it, or they just avoid and don't want to deal with it. And I really just honored to say that this is huge. This is really tough. And this is hard work. And so what I'm looking for is when I'm working with somebody, let's let the idea of getting back out into the world or dating again, since that happens to be happens to be the niche I fell into is a lot of dating and relationships is what I try to do is you just start small. So it's almost like exposure therapy, but the sense of like, let's start low hanging fruit. Let's look something like when you check out, go see if you can go to Target. See if you can find find the most non threatening person don't find the hot guy or the hot girl you'd want to talk to you. If you're looking to date, go find like the little old man or woman who's checking you out at Target. Ask them how their day is just strange, very slick. Just do that. If you stress out or freak out, okay, don't go back again, you find another target, find another Starbucks, but the low hanging fruit just to try to get our bodies to having a positive experience, but keeping it really small, where they can have also a sense of accomplishment. And like, Okay, I did that. And then building from building from there. But again, I think a lot of people too. They don't want to deal with it now. So they're like, no, no, like, I'm good. I mean, all I have to do is look all over tic tock to be like, I don't need anybody. I'm good all on my own. And I'm like, well, that again that that works until it does until you're you're lonely and you're wanting a partner wanting connection.

Nick VinZant 7:19

That's what I always worry about with friends of mine, like, Okay, you stayed in your house for two years. But you're 45 and single and you want to have children like what are you going to do?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 7:27

Yeah, yeah. And then and that's where I always like, there's only one road in if I want to have a family or want to have a partner, you got to go down that path. So at some point, we got to figure that path out because there's not another another route. And, you know, tell me if this is too much of a tangent off your question. But what I've often noticed is people because of their anxiety, when it comes to that, they will, they'll swing in and out, you know it, they'll swing, so it's like, I'm never dating, I'm not going out. I'm not dating anymore, I'm fine on my own. And then when they do decide to date, it's like they swing all in with with very few muscles. Now remember, their muscles have atrophied because they've been at home for two years haven't dated. And then they go to try to go back into the dating app world. And they're like, Alright, I'm pulling up my sleeves, I'm going back in and then it's like a shit show. And they're like, oh, like, like, this is horrible. This is it. I never want to do it again. So they swing back out. And again, it's there's that like, all it's like the diet mentality. It's like I'm either fully dieting, or I'm fully like, you know, eating everything in sight. And what we're what I encourage and what we're looking for is no, no, how do we start to thread it in? We want a lifestyle? How do we create a lifestyle? Just like a lifestyle of eating a food? How do we create a healthy lifestyle of dating? Which is, how do I just dip a toe in and then come on out, you know, get you get build that muscle slowly over time, so I can build an endurance. So I'm not swinging into this, like all in or all out of dating?

Nick VinZant 8:48

What are some of the other issues that you're usually seeing people are treating people for?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 8:54

You know, um, I would say a lot of lot of depression, a lot of suicide, a lot of self harm I get I'm working within a population of a lot of teenagers. A lot of anxiety, social anxiety, OCD, I'd say both of those. And then a lot of academic issues from people who haven't had a lot of academic issues before because we lost the external value validation and being in the classroom and getting all the attention for the teacher. And so a lot of people that really hadn't been thriving up to this point are not, not not thriving.

Nick VinZant 9:23

I may edit this question out because I want to ask you something. But then when I look back on it, it may sound like a really stupid comment. So may edit this out. But like, Have we lost any kind of toughness at all? Like have we become where everything is the end of the world?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 9:43

Yeah. Gosh, that's such a good question. Because there's so much there's so much to say that the minute I want to be able to say yeah, we've lost that toughness. Part of me wants to be like No, no, I I've seen people with a high level of grit. I've seen people I call it a high level of grit, which is that sense of self, I don't look around, I don't look at that and be like, Oh my gosh, that's a huge mountain, I have to Oh my gosh, I can't do anything about it. Grit is like, I don't look up at the mountain, I just put one foot in front of the other, and I just do what I need to do. And once I get over the mountain, and over to the other side, look back and be like, holy cow, I can't believe I made it over that now. And I've seen that and I see people with a high level of grit. Do I also see people that look at that mountain, and have a tendency to look at the mount and be like, I can't do anything? I can't. That's too big. This is actually not my problem. This is not about me. It's about that the mountains too big. Right? I can't do this. Do I see that as well? Yes. Do I see more of that in a younger generation than I've seen before? Yes. Yes. I don't see as much grit. However, does that mean that it's not here? No, I, there's always exceptions. And you'll always see that.

Nick VinZant 10:50

I would say though, and correct me if I'm wrong here too. Right. Like you and I are both have an older generation. And I feel like older generations always look at younger generations, like oh, they gone soft. Right. So there is kind of like, kids today. Yeah, there's some of that too, you know,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 11:06

apps. Absolutely. But I also feel like there's an element here, we need to take in consideration and you told me to if this is too far off base, but that is it, given because of the because of social media, because of internet, the main voices in our lives growing up were teachers, you know, coaches, parents, you know, whatever your local community was, those were the voices in our life. And now the younger generation, they're a lot of their voices, a lot of them, they fired their parents, and a lot of them the voice the main voices in their life are influencers, influencers, who are who are still trying to figure out the world themselves. So do I see the more overwhelmed or more kind of losing their way than previous generations? Yes, they do.

Nick VinZant 11:50

I would say too, and kind of that conversation, too, is like the gatekeeper isn't there anymore, like the people that you and I used to grew up listening to, they were generally the experts in the field. And now it's kind of could be anybody with any kind of thing to say, yeah. And if it resonates with that person, like, I'm not a therapist, but I had a boyfriend once, right? It's kind of a good friend, right? Whatever. That's

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 12:11

exactly how I ended up going on Tik Tok was five and a half months ago, I was looking over my daughter. So I was on Tik Tok. I was looking over my daughter shoulder. And it was a little sweet little 20 year old thing and spandex darling. But she was giving dating advice. And it was, by the way, the worst advice I've ever heard. And I turned to my kids, and I was like, What is this shit? And they were like, oh, yeah, there's like tons of them on tick tock. And I was like, You're kidding me? And I'm like, Yeah, and that's when I started getting on being like, Okay, I got to give some sound advice here. Because this is I'd actually say to do the opposite of what this person says suggested, and a lot of them actually breeding hate for men and hate for women. And I'm like, Oh, that's not going to get us anywhere.

Nick VinZant 12:48

I want to do something a little bit different than we have. In other episodes, we usually get used. We get a lot of kind of listeners submitted questions, but I want to boil these down, if I can into kind of just broad topics, and just what you think about them? People who are having commitment issues, what would your advice be to them? Like, what should they do?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 13:07

Yeah, you know, I think if it's usually when it's commitment issues, it has to do with our, it has to do with our survival mechanism. Our bodies are wired to protect us, you know, the whole goal of our brain and our body is to protect us and keep us safe and to prevent us from being hurt. So it has more I would my encouragement is if you have commitment issues, it has more to do with your survival mechanism in your body and your fear of getting hurt fight or flight response. And so my encouragement would be how do you find someone like me, a therapist or a social worker to help you learned how to regulate your body? Because if you think that that's going to go away, that's not going to go away? If I just find the right person, this will go away. And it's about how do I learn how to manage and regulate my body when it wants to run because it scared?

Nick VinZant 13:49

Imposter syndrome?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 13:51

I'll speak on that one. So imposter syndrome is this sense of feeling like a fake? You know, so actually, I I'll see, I'll see a therapist, I'll be a therapist to other therapists. And that's actually something that often hears them feeling like I'm an imposter. I'm acting like I have it all together, and I don't you see it in dating, too. It's this sense of I'm putting this false person forward. That's like really not me at all. And feeling like I'm an imposter in my own life. And again, that's where it's really that sense of how do I get back to what who, who really, am I how do I? How do I tend to myself, I love saying this on my videos, but you spend more time in your body and with your thoughts than anybody else on this planet. You spend more time with your with yourself and your own thoughts that anybody else even your spouse on this planet? How do we how do we start to make that the relationship we work on the most? How do I start to actually not just tolerate myself but but like who I am? And believe it or not, that's the best way to attend to that imposter syndrome is to start to who who am I and how do I how do I tend to this relationship with myself?

Nick VinZant 14:52

This person just says, Why do I always date the wrong men? And I think we can we can supplant men with yeah whatever, right? Yeah.

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 15:00

All right. You know, I would say a good a good hunch on that, when I usually go with is that there's something with that that's familiar. we gravitate towards what's familiar, not necessarily what's best for us, but what our body knows. So we will often gravitate towards something our body knows even if it wasn't something we like, like how our parents were how a past relationship when we were young was, but ultimately, a lot of the questions I get asked that goes along with this is like, Why do I always attract the right guys? And like, it's not about whether you attract the right guys? Or the right gals? It's about how do I learn how to communicate? How do I learn to get to know somebody? And how do I learn how to set boundaries, so whether you like me or not, it doesn't matter if you're a good guy, or a good or a bad guy. I'm learning how to set boundaries. So I'm picking somebody, that's a good fit for me.

Nick VinZant 15:44

Um, you know, look, I'll be honest about my family life, and that we have dealt with this in which not getting into the politics of it, let's, let's stay away from that. But like there are a big divide sometimes in families, and we have been separated from family members who have gone down certain roads. But for people who are going into the holidays that time of year, like what advice would you give to somebody that's struggling with family members or a family member, that they may have been alienated from because of political or whatever kind of divides?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 16:14

Yeah, that is so hard. So I would go in and believe it or not, I would go a different direction than most people would would expect. And that is, if you try to think about that person, you don't have control over that person, you don't have control whether whether that person is going to spout off about their political belief, or, or how, or maybe there's tension between family members, the only thing I have control over is myself. So what I really encourage and what I work with people on is like, okay, let's have a plan going into the holidays of how to regulate yourself. So you know, if Uncle Bob starts going off about something that I know, just fires me up, what are my things that I know, help regulate my body, I'm looking for things that shift my nervous system back to a regulated state. So all have things already in place, like going for walks, right going for a walk, be the one to volunteer to go get ice, I'm running to the store, anybody want anything, so that you give yourself away a pendulum eating out regulating your body and coming back in, if you know, your family already keeps you charged the whole time, I have them do what's called a drip system, I'm putting a drip system in of things that will regulate my body, whether I need it or not, whether that means I go into the back room and I take a nap or I go for a walk, or I just put on maybe just put on some music that I know really calms my body down. So I have them put in in a drip system. And I'll also have them do what's called front loading before they go in. front loading is just a term that says I already know I'm going into a stressful event, right? And how do I just really get myself regulated, which means I'm taking deep breaths, I'm really calming my body down. Before I go in knowing it's going to activate me, and I make sure I have a time limit. If my family is really tough. I make sure like me and my partner were like, alright, we got two hours here, we got three hours here so that my body knows, okay, it's limited and ends coming and ends come you got this two more hours, you got this and that makes your body be able to manage it more than feeling like it's stuck in something that's flooding.

Nick VinZant 18:04

Where do we get like most of our issues from? Are they deep seated things that we got in childhood? Or in our teenage years? Or do we like pick something up later on in life?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 18:14

No, it's such a great question. I really believe it's like a slot machine. And it's different for everybody, all of us have such customized unique paths. But two people can have the same experience grew up in the same house have similar experiences, and, and interact with and react in their body in totally different ways. Because we're like a slot machine. Nobody has, it's your DNA mixed with your upbringing mixed with your environment mixed with your individual experiences. And so it's everybody's going to react differently, which is why something may register in your body as traumatic but not traumatic in my body, everybody's different. But all of those it's one of those things that it's as we accumulate different things through life, they're going to impact us, you could have a horrific accident in your 30s. And that, of course that's going to impact you. So but somebody may not have that but have childhood trauma. But I think the one thing that is impartial to everybody is that life, there are hardships that come with life. struggles are not an intrusion of life. They're part of life and some people at offended, offended. Like it's almost like Life is like that's an assault on life. No, no struggles hardship are not an assault on life. They're part of life, learning how to navigate those as our work.

Nick VinZant 19:24

That's the way kind of thing we talked about a little bit earlier. That's like, the hard thing is like, right, like, is this a problem? Or is this a natural struggle of being alive? Because life is kind of supposed to suck? Right? Like me and the other co hosts of this channel we talk about, like 90% of life kind of sucks. You're just doing the same stuff. And it's supposed to be hard and you're supposed to fail over and over and over again. But like when do you know like, you know what? This isn't right. I should probably get some help. See

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 19:52

an island that feisty like reply to me wants to push back and be like, No, like no, like, no, no, no, no life. It's hardships in life as it struggles but but I will, I will, I will fight until I have a life that is like calm and pleasant and joyful. What is the actual goal we're going for. I always tell people imagine like a jar, imagine a jar, what we think life's going to be is like food coloring, where the whole jar is either blue and sucks, or the whole jar, we put a drop of food coloring a pink and we want this, we think life's supposed to be all rose colored. And it's not like that. Instead, imagine a jar, and you're gonna have your hardships, those are little blue balloons that are filled up. Our goal is to say how do I find little balloons to put in my jar of things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, silly to offset it so that when I look at the jar, I can see the blue, but overall, I see pink, bringing in what's going on in our bodies, our bodies are wired to for threat, our bodies are wired to default to threat to put out flowers or to put out fires. This is when I listen, our bodies are wired, are wired to put out fires, not to plant flowers. But where we need to go, is we need to work how do I intentionally build things that are calm, pleasant, joyful, to offset the hard things in life. And that's when life starts to feel really good. Really good. Not perfect, hard balloons are there. But I've worked on building in these things, snacks and meals, little things that are calm and pleasant to start to change the way my feels.

Nick VinZant 21:23

Okay, these are some of the more controversial questions I get. Do people really not know what their issue is? Or do they secretly know what it is? And they just don't do anything about it? Mm

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 21:38

hmm. You know, I, you know, I love that question is because there, there'll be people that come in, who will be like, oh, yeah, I need to work on this, or this spouse is bring. And I will say, Wait, what do you want this to change? Like, do you want it to change? Because just because you know, you have something doesn't mean you necessarily want to get rid of it or want it to change? Because there's, you may lose something. So I don't know if this is answering a question directly. But that is one of the things I always stopped to make sure. Right. The other thing I also make sure when I'm working with a couple, the first I started so do you guys want to work on this? Do you want do you want to be together? Because just because you assume someone's aware of something doesn't mean necessarily that they're, they want it to change, or they want a marriage to work? So you got you got to start with asking them, and also kind of getting down to well, if you didn't change it, did things things got better? Would we lose anything? Is there anything that we would lose? Or there'd be a cost? To

Nick VinZant 22:31

have like this question, this person just says, Am I the problem? And I think what they mean essentially is ultimately depending no matter what happens around people's lives, and we're not talking about like extenuating, extending waiting circumstances, but in general people's lives, are they usually ultimately the cause of the things that are happening to them?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 22:51

You know, I would say that's a combination. Sometimes we are the cause, Sometimes life happens to us, and it has nothing to do with us. But when I look at when I look at that, what I hear even in the question itself, am I the problem? Because nobody wants to find blame. If either you need to be the problem, or I need to be the problem because somebody has to be the problem. Why does somebody need to be the problem, because if I can point to where the problem is, and somebody needs to fix it, that's our brains are built, what our brain is trying to do is say, I don't want to be heard anymore. So I have to be able to identify who's to blame here so I can point to who needs to fix it. Right? As opposed to, so I really shift our mentality to say, Oh, I don't think it's that black and white. Until we take our last breath. We are under construction, and you have an invitation to work on yourself. How I see my life is fully up to me. How I my personal one, one of the biggest things I've noticed with clients, they come in hoping for a lot of changes. And yes, external changes may happen. But the biggest changes happens in their life is when they shift their perspective, how they see their own life. So when it comes to you, how you see your own life, yes, that's fully your responsibility, how your invitation to grow. Yes, that's up to you, that you are in control of that you can work on that you can grow. Some things are out of our control, and they just happen. And that's part of life as well.

Nick VinZant 24:08

Who's more to blame for relationships? Men or women? Who's the problem? Okay, the honest answer the problem?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 24:17

Ah, you know, if, you know, it's this is actually a big theme and people that watch a lot of my tic tock videos, no, because I cannot stand the all men or all women. And so I think the minute we try to point a finger on men or a long finger on women, we actually again, there's that blame again, I was just talking about it's either you're the problem or in the problem. So who are we pointing the finger at the men or the women? And in actuality, I would say we have to leave it individual. We have to give them names. There's some great guys and there's some and there's some not so great guys. There's some great girls and there are some not so great girls, but the minute we start to lump everybody together, it's too easy to start to have hate and bitterness and blame. And by the way, even if I were to say Say, men are the problem that while that does is it prevents women from actually looking themselves and growing and seeing how they can grow in a relationship or vice versa. If I were to say, Oh, these new age women, it's easy. It's these women, then all the men are like, okay, good. There's the problem right there. And all of a sudden, what does that do? It takes the eyes off yourself. And it takes off from yourself and say, oh, where can I grow in relationship? Who do I need to still work on? So the answer I would say, is C, none of the above.

Nick VinZant 25:24

I get I get fired up about that, too. And I see those tick tock videos or videos like all men suck all women sucks, like, no, it's probably just the people you're walking around with. It's like, there's a bunch of good people

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 25:34

and good people. Exactly. And now I'd like to take it okay. Well, okay. Okay, now that you've determined that now, now what? And now it does that make our odds of dating one better? Like we're where do we go from there, because all that does is get us stuck in our own bitterness. And I'm all I always say, I think people are looking for a placeholder for their anger. And it has more to do with them being hurt. And so I have a tendency to turn to the people that are so angry and bitter and say, I'm so sorry for what you were hurt. I'm so sorry. Whoever hurt you, that got you to a place that you hate them that much? Because that's the real issue.

Nick VinZant 26:04

This one's a little bit. This one's a little bit more lighthearted. But after listening to people's problems all day, how can you stand people?

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 26:15

You know, if anything, I'm a true extrovert. And that really energizes me and I love that every hour is different. I think. I think if anything, it makes me love people even more. I just look at us as human beings, myself included, and oh my god bless us look at us go. I mean, look at us trying to figure out this show of a life sometimes. I mean, if anything, it just makes me I think love people even more, but I can tell you, you know, the the way that I the way that I've filled my own tank after working all day is I will grab a glass of wine and watch like bachelor and Paradise or some no brainer TV, like nothing that has to do with me, you find me the trashiest TV show. And that is usually what I'm watching in order to refill my tank. Missing this teenage movies.

Nick VinZant 26:59

I don't know if you can answer this one or not. But most interesting case you've ever had,

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 27:05

you'll actually have permission to share this story because um, she actually started sharing this story publicly. Um, hardest case. And the most endearing to me, probably not interesting, but the most endearing was a mom who lost her seven year old child. And I don't think I don't think you're ever the same after the, and I think to walk with her, and watch these little, little pockets of healing with her. If anything, it just felt like I almost wanted to thank her for letting me be in the room, just to watch her heal. And something to me that just was so life changing. And watch her heart grow and heal. And that Collateral Beauty that comes out of it. It's it's never You never asked for suffering. But the redemptive value are things that come out of it that otherwise wouldn't have and watching a book come out of it a book deal and watching her speaking and that that came out of that and her beautiful heart. That that was that was a journey.

Nick VinZant 28:08

I feel like we should end on a happier question. But that's no there's for people maybe who don't have children and listening to this, like there is no pain or worry like that. Right. And if that's not a road that you decide to go down, or one that you're blessed with like that is

Lisa - "So My Mom's a Therapist" 28:28

I can, I can if we want to learn a little later no to I can't tell you probably the most fun situation I got got to work with it was very high. So I get an opportunity every now and then to work with somebody in the industry. And I had somebody that reached out not didn't honestly want to see me for therapy. But it was just very short term. But they had gotten a role on a primetime television show. And they needed it to be a teenager. That was extremely a mean mean girl and she couldn't access a mean girl because she wasn't a mean girl. And my job was actually to do her psychological work to get her into a place where she'd had hurt or pain in her childhood, which she hadn't had to get her to be this like kind of mean girl and then also to make sure I could get her out of it. So I actually was doing the opposite of what I do in therapy is how do we get you to a place where you're acting out? Lashing out and doing everything you shouldn't be doing? And then how do I make sure we can get you back to where it used to be. So that was actually that was kind of fun. That was very interesting.

Nick VinZant 29:26

So you can help people and fuck them up. That's it. I found a new tool I have. I want to thank Lisa so much for joining us if you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Instagram, Twitter and Tik Tok, and we have also included her information in the episode description. If you feel like you or someone you know needs help, don't hesitate to reach out. I can tell you that. therapy has made a profound difference in the lives of people that I know. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. I have two questions for you. One, have you ever considered going to therapy or felt like you needed to go get therapy? And two? Would you rather be an elf? Or a reindeer? For?

Electric Violinist Mia Asano

From her music to her viral videos, Mia Asano is bringing something new to a classic instrument. We talk Electric Violins, the pressure to be perfect and the highs and lows of sudden social media fame. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things We Wish We Were Better At.

Mia Asano: 01:39ish

Pointless: 30:06ish

Top 5: 44:00

https://open.spotify.com/track/1ueJotDhUqui1VJp0piINB?si=438e7ae7d84740a9 (Mia Asano Spotify Music)

https://www.instagram.com/miaasanomusic/ (Mia Asano Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@miaasanomusic?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1 (Mia Asano TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/c/MiaAsano/videos (Mia Asano YouTube)

https://miaasano.onuniverse.com/ (Mia Asano Website)

https://www.facebook.com/miaasanomusic (Mia Asano Facebook)

Interview with Violinist Mia Asano

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, violins and things we wish we were better at

Mia Asano 0:22

when I was around age 13, I discovered electric violins. And then for me, it was game over from there like that I was like, This is what I have to do, I have to get my hands on an electric violin, playing violin is very, very difficult. And you're trying to train your muscle memory so that your fingers go to that exact perfect 10th of a millimeter spot every single time. And so, it really takes a lot out of you what ended up happening, I was going through kind of a period of questioning myself musically and I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome. I posted this one video, and I woke up the next morning with 100,000 followers and I was at the grocery store and I started crying.

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think the best way to introduce our first guest is to let you hear her music

this is electric violinist. Mia Sano was it always the violin for you? Or did you try other instruments and then find the violin?

Mia Asano 1:44

When I was five years old, I was given the choice from my parents. They said you could play a violin, guitar or piano. And I chose the violin. And, you know, I could have had other opportunities to try other instruments throughout the years, but I kind of just fell in love with the violin right away and basically never looked back.

Nick VinZant 2:02

What was it about it?

Mia Asano 2:04

Um, it's hard. Recalling back to my five year old brain, I think I just probably liked the look and sound of it the most,

Nick VinZant 2:13

I would say that probably the violin is the coolest looking instrument to play.

Mia Asano 2:19

I would I agree with that. I think both a typical acoustic classical violin, I think it looks beautiful. And it's one of my favorite instruments. But then when I was around age 13, I discovered electric violins. And then for me, it was game over from there like that I was like, This is what I have to do, I have to get my hands on an electric violin. And that's why what I do normally now is I play both acoustic violin and electric violin. But I would say my primary at the moment, and what I'm known for most is being an electric violinist.

Nick VinZant 2:53

So with me knowing absolutely nothing about violins besides what they're called strings. What's what's the difference between your kind of classical violin and an electric violin like what's, what's the difference there.

Mia Asano 3:10

So, classical violin, it's also called, I mean, I call it an acoustic violin, but a lot of people recognize it as a classical violin. So you go to an orchestra and you see people playing these wooden instruments, that's, that's a violin. And typically, they have four strings, the string notes are E, A, D, and G. A lot of the time people who play it will focus on the, the music of the classical tradition. So you know, your Bach and your Beethoven and your Mozart. And that's, that's a typical like classical violin. You also see though fiddle players, they'll play on acoustic violin as well, but they call them a fiddle. And, and that's what when people typically think of a violin, that's what they think. An electric violin can take many shapes and forms because it doesn't rely on the body of the instrument to project the sound. So as you can see, in a classical violin, it's hollow inside. And so through those little squiggly s looking things on the on the instrument, the sound comes through those they're called the F holes. And the instrument itself is projecting the sound out. But on an electric violin, a lot of the time the body of the instrument is solid, or it looks really weird. Like they can make them look as weird as they want. There's this one maker that makes them look like skulls, or there's one the one that I play on. It's called a viper, from wood violins, and it looks like a flying V electric guitar, and it has frets and seven strings. And so what an electric violin allows you to do and why I became obsessed with them really quickly, is they're really similar to electric guitars. So you can play you can plug it into like a guitar effects pedal rig, and so I can put distortion on it. I can make it sound like an electric guitar, I can put all these different crazy effects on it and make It sound like not even like a violin anymore. So something I'm really passionate about is just breaking the boundaries of, you know, I was classically trained for 16 years, I still play classical music, and I love it. In addition to that, I have all these other musical interests like rock and pop, and electronic music. And my electric violin allows me to play those and play stylistically more appropriately in the setting. If I'm in a rock band, then I can plug in and play rock music instead of then I'll go play fiddle tunes with my Celtic band on my acoustic violin. So that's that's the difference.

Nick VinZant 5:33

Is there any kind of animosity there between like the classical violinists and the electric violinist like all these kids, their damn electric violins?

Mia Asano 5:43

Um, yes. There's different. You know, I think this is true in any community, when people do something that's different. And that kind of breaks from tradition, there are going to be purists who take offense to it. I've experienced incredible support from musicians in the classical community who see what I'm doing. And they think, like, I really love that because it's, it's taking the violin to a new level that's opening it up to new audiences, and blah, blah, blah, then there's other people and I get quite a bit of hate comments on my social media platforms, from people who say, I've been told that I'm a disgrace to the classical violin world, I've been told that there's like kind of an ongoing joke from some YouTube channel of people calling it calling my electric violin sacrilegious. So and I know it's kind of like an internet joke. So I, I don't take offense to it or get upset by it. But you know, there's a lot of people who will be like, That's a sacrilegious file and just play an acoustic violin play a classical violin. And there's a lot of people who, because, admittedly, to be a classical violinist, it takes a lot of work. There are people that are practicing like six to eight hours a day. And you know, I grew up doing that I was I was in deep in the classical world. So I have a lot of respect for the classical community, I'm still I still consider myself a part of it in addition to the other stuff that I do. But there's people that have to put in so much work to play this music that is so intensely difficult. So to see someone playing an electric violin, there's a lot of misunderstandings, people think that it takes less skill to play an electric violin, which is not true. And there are people that think that because I'm playing pop music, or rock music, people who are putting in six hours a day practicing this intense classical music, some of them, some of them get offended. They're like what you're doing is so easy compared to how much work I've had to put it's, I think it's a it's a misunderstanding, because I still have to put in a lot of work,

Nick VinZant 7:39

when you look at kind of an orchestra is a violin a harder instrument to play than, say, like, the saxophone and the, like, when people like, Ooh, you got to be good to play the violin.

Mia Asano 7:55

People have to work very, very hard no matter what you play. So that's, that's the caveat. That being said, a playing violin is very, very difficult. And I feel very fortunate that I started when I was young, because I'm like, Okay, I didn't I didn't come up with this. Itzhak Perlman, a very famous violinist said this, he said, you could take a beginner and sit them down at a piano and try to teach them Twinkle twinkle little star, sit them down at a piano and sit them down at a violin. By the end of the day. On the piano, it'll sound like Twinkle twinkle little star on the violin, you have no idea what it's gonna sound like. Because you're dealing with the bow, which has the potential to sound so horrible if you don't know what you're doing with it. Whereas, so like, I think on any instrument, it can be very difficult to play the repertoire, like the difficult repertoire. On the violin, a lot of my students struggle a lot with making it not sound like screeching or that type of stuff. It's very challenging. So I'm glad I started when I was young, because I joke that it takes you about 10 years to kind of figure out how to make it sound not terrible. And then after that, hopefully you're good enough that you can get into a music school.

Nick VinZant 9:06

So why is it so difficult, um,

Mia Asano 9:09

so definitely, the bow adds a whole nother level because you're not just there's there's so much potential, like I just mentioned for the bow to sound scratchy or screechie. The other really difficult part is on the instrument itself. You want your notes to play in tune. And on the violin, there's about a 10th of a millimeter of space where you're playing the exact right note, and if your finger is anywhere around that perfect spot, you're out of tune. And so unlike on a guitar where you put your finger down between the frets, and that's the correct note, or on a piano where as long as hopefully the piano is in tune, you press the key and it's in tune on the violin. You could put your finger down in the right spot, and I'm putting finger quotations the right spot. And it could still be the note, but not the perfectly in tune notes. So I used to spend, I would have a violin lesson and we would spend the entire hour working on one measure of music, because I would be, I wouldn't be playing that note perfectly in tune. And then a lot of the time on violin, you're playing chords. So that's multiple notes at the same time. And you have to play those notes. So they perfect are perfectly in tune with each other. So the way I would do that is I would play it and adjust my fingers slowly, until I can hear them ringing them in the most beautiful Intune way. And then I would take my hand off the instrument, I put it back on the instrument and try it again. And you're trying to train your muscle memory so that your fingers go to that exact perfect 10th of a millimeter spot every single time. And so it really takes a lot out of you, I will say. And then my electric violin has frets on it. And so it looks like guitar frets. But contrary to popular belief, I have a lot of people that think that because I have frets on my electric violin automatically, I can play in tune. So people will say you're cheating because your frets on your electric, the frets don't actually help me play in tune, because it's the same way as on my classical violin, I have a 10th of a millimeter on the electric violin that's perfectly in tune. The frets just serve as like a physical reference point. If I'm playing live and I can't hear myself, then I can see and feel where the notes are supposed to go. Because again, on the violin, you can put your finger anywhere, and not if you can't hear yourself you don't know if that's in tune or not. You're constantly listening and adjusting to make sure everything is perfectly intonated.

Nick VinZant 11:35

So what makes a really like somebody like yourself, what makes a good violinist really good

Mia Asano 11:42

for me personally, I judge it more based on did you make me feel something with what you just played? And that's the mark of like a really good violinist for me.

Nick VinZant 11:49

When people kind of do that when they put their own kind of signature on it. Right? Like can people like myself hear the difference? Or is it mainly just people like you that will be able to hear the difference?

Mia Asano 12:00

Um, I think a trained violinist will be able to hear the difference because again, there's typically a an ideal way to play something. But the thing is, everyone has a different view of the right way to play a piece. Like, for example, kind of the composer that is highly revered for violinist is Bach. Because he wrote these incredible Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin that are so difficult. And to play them beautifully is a really incredible, they're they're meant to be played in churches, like it's a very, like, sacred piece of music for you to be able to play as a violinist. It's also really hard to play it well. And every single violinist in the world has a different idea of like the correct and proper way to play it. So what I learned is you can't really please everyone. I also learned from a teacher of mine, that if I'm going to go play violin for like an audition for an orchestra, and I go and playing Bach, chances are the way that I've interpreted it is not gonna be the same as the way that the auditioner has interpreted

Nick VinZant 13:03

it, the music that your own music now, is that something that you've written? Or is that more of a stylistic interpretation of things?

Mia Asano 13:10

It's both so for my own music, because yeah, what I mostly do nowadays, is alternative contemporary styles of music. So, again, pop rock, electronic, Celtic music, I go to the Berklee College of Music. So I've been studying jazz and r&b. There's all these different other styles of music that the violin is capable of. And what I mostly do is, well, I released original music, and I do write and release original music. So I actually just put out a single, and it's called lunar. And it's an kind of a pop electronic, violin track, but I co wrote it with a professor of mine, Jason attic, who's an incredible jazz violinist. So with him, we kind of put a jazzy bluesy spin on parts of it while still collaborating with some electronic producers to make it very, like pop electronic. So that's kind of the style of music I'm trying to go in. But then on my social media, so what happened is about a year ago, I sort of accidentally had some videos go viral on Tik Tok and Instagram. And that was me kind of just doing pop covers, covering different like songs that were trending. And there was a pretty big public reaction to it. People really enjoyed it. It really liked the electric violin that I was playing on. So a lot of what I do nowadays is playing covers and short, just short, fun daily videos that I put out, just for fun.

Nick VinZant 14:40

Were you surprised by the reaction that you had? Because I saw some stuff? It was like 10 Let's call it 20 million, whatever however many millions it is but were you surprised by people's reaction to

Mia Asano 14:51

it? Um, I was I was I was surprised. I'll be honest, because what ended up happening I was going through kind of a period of calm questioning myself musically and I was feeling a lot of imposter syndrome. This was kind of like in the middle of the pandemic, when it was like that dark time when everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like, Will this be over and I was definitely feeling that. So just to kind of bring myself out of my slump and to try to come back to play music that I feel felt passionate about. I started posting videos, kind of secretly on on Tik Tok. You know, I didn't know much about the platform. I just kind of woke up one day and I had this idea to, I was like, Okay, there's all these trends that go around on Tik Tok. What if I did those, those trending things, but as electric violin covers, so I started doing it, I'm not really expecting anything to happen. Like, obviously, it'd be nice to have your video go viral. But I wasn't really like setting out like, Oh, I'm going to try to get Tik Tok famous. What ended up happening though, is because I got really clear on, I want to be authentically myself, I want to help people and make people happy, I want to. And then I've been honing my video editing skills and my audio editing skills throughout the pandemic. So all of that kind of combined into this perfect storm, where within a week of me posting every day on the app, I posted this one video, just totally not expecting anything to happen. I threw it together in like a half hour just like threw it up on the internet. And I went to the store with a friend. And as I'm leaving the store, I look in the video had 36,000 views. And I was like oh my gosh, and it kept climbing and climbing. And by the end of the night, it had 2 million views. And I woke up the next morning with 100,000 followers and I was at the grocery store and I started crying. I was like how I was not expecting that. I couldn't believe that it happened literally overnight. He there was like a really positive response to it. And that was so meaningful to me because again, I'm coming off of months of feeling so uninspired and sad and and feeling lost musically.

Nick VinZant 16:56

Are you ready for some listener? Some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, let's do it. hardest song to play,

Mia Asano 17:04

hardest song to play? The hardest song to play? I think that's really subjective. It depends on the person's abilities. That being said, I think any Paganini is extremely difficult. He's this incredible composer who wrote these caprices, like to be a violinist that can play a Paganini Caprice is very, very impressive. And then any of like the bigger name of violin concertos, I would say are very difficult.

Nick VinZant 17:31

Have you ever had a violin related injury?

Mia Asano 17:35

Yes, I have had many violin related injuries. I was in an orchestra in high school. And we were rehearsing, I think, to play at like Carnegie Hall, like, which was a very cool experience. But we were having these like really long, intense rehearsals. And I it was like 17 hours over the course of two days. And I remember not knowing at the time I was young, I didn't know how to warm up and stretch before you played. I didn't know the importance of that. And because it was so intense, and I was playing for so long. And I didn't have the best posture. I've learned since then. But I my shoulder started hurting. And then for the next few years, every time I would play my shoulder would hurt my left shoulder. So finally in college, I went into the physical therapist at my school and I was like, Hey, I've had the shoulder pain for the last four years. Can you help me and I went to a sports doctor and they diagnosed it as coracoid impingement. And then throughout the course of that year, I also developed tendinitis in my hands and forearms, and a lot of musicians. A lot of violinists that I know have these types of injuries just from it's called an overuse injury. Because, again, there are people that are practicing eight or nine hours a day, so like of course, you're going to overuse it at some point.

Nick VinZant 18:57

So then, is the violin the most dangerous instrument?

Mia Asano 19:02

Well, any instrument any instrumentalists can injure themselves like pianists, you know, guitar, like all of the ins I don't know a single I have a friend from high school who was an incredible, who is an incredible percussion player. And, you know, they were playing a marimba so much that they ended up with these forearm injuries. So it's not just violin it's, they call us small muscle athletes. So you know, you have your big muscle athletes, like a soccer player or football player. Musicians like technically, according to the sports doctors that I've talked to, that's why I had to go to a sports doctor. You know, we're exercising these small muscles in our hands and our fingers and our neck and our shoulders. Depending on the answer like drummers are using their legs. Yeah. So anyone is really there's potential for injury for anyone if you don't know the right types of if you don't have to take care of your body. And if you're overdoing it, and unfortunately, a lot of young people because we're not taught how to take care of ourselves. We're just taught, practice a lot and get better. Do

Nick VinZant 20:04

people go nuts driving the playing the violin? Like, I feel like it's the kind of thing that you could you would have to be like so obsessed with? Kind of like, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Black Swan or something like that, yes, the pressure and all that stuff, like, Does that happen to people,

Mia Asano 20:19

um, I wouldn't specifically say like, go nuts. But, um, there's a lot of burnout, that I also have experienced at times, there is a lot of pressure because everyone's kind of competing for similar jobs because this, it's dependent on the person, but a lot of the jobs for violinists are playing in an orchestra, for example, and there's only a certain number of seats in that orchestra. And a lot of those people in the orchestra have kind of a almost like permanent position, it's very hard to get a job in those settings, unless you're really, really good. And to be really, really good, you need to practice really, really hard. And so, you know, people are competing for limited seats, there's very limited, limited jobs available. And so as a result, it can be discouraging for some people. For other people, it's the thing that they want to do the most, and they love it the most, and nothing will deter them from that. And I think for any musician, like, that's what it takes to make it far as a musician is you have to have that internal drive and passion where it's almost like, you can't do anything else, like you have to do this. And then it's worth it. It's worth it to put all that time and energy into it. Like they say, life is suffering. So what you should, you should need to find the thing that it's worth suffering for him.

Nick VinZant 21:41

Most expensive violin you've ever played?

Mia Asano 21:45

Oh, no, um, the most expensive one I've ever played is definitely like, I don't think they let me touch one of the million dollar ones. But they can get that expensive. I've played ones in the, like 50 to $100,000 range, but just like what I'm out of violin shop, like, and they have one there and they let me touch it, you know, like, and but that is the range of a lot of violence. A lot of higher end violins, they can get that expensive. They can range from like $200 that you can buy, like online, from there all the way to millions of dollars and bows to like a violin bow like they can get up to like $200,000. Like, they're there, they can be very excited. I know, it just looks like a stick. But it's a really, really important stick. And some of them are made from like this extinct Brazilian tree wood and there's like, and it's like the best thing that you can get. And so it gets really rare. And so, you know, the prices can really vary on different instruments.

Nick VinZant 22:46

Is it rare? Because it I mean, is that expensive? Because it's rare? Or is it that expensive? Because like, oh, that really is a better violin.

Mia Asano 22:55

Um, it's both. I think there's definitely like, like with anything like with fashion or business, whatever, like brand value is a thing. And there's some incredible violin makers from hundreds and hundreds of years ago that made these pieces of art that are just the most incredible, incredibly intricately crafted instruments that are not only just better, but then because like Stradivarius is probably the most commonly known violin maker. So to play on a Stradivarius violin, you know, it's it's very high quality. Also, it's really rare because obviously Stradivarius is not around anymore.

Nick VinZant 23:29

coolest place you've ever played.

Mia Asano 23:32

Um, there's a couple answers to that. One of them, as I mentioned before, was Carnegie Hall. I toured there with with an orchestra. And it was, it was amazing. Definitely a life changing experience, because it's seen as such a important and incredible venue. But then I've gotten to play some really fun events at different, like nightclubs, and I played at the House of Blues in Boston. And that was really fun. It was that was a really, really fun experience. But definitely, probably Carnegie Hall was my favorite,

Nick VinZant 24:06

best violin related joke.

Mia Asano 24:10

Oh, no. Um, I mean, okay. It's like a thing in orchestras, where, like, we the instruments will make fun of each other. So like, the poor violas and a viola is like a violin. But the tone is a little deeper, the instruments usually bigger, and the strings are different instead of a DG, it's a DGC. So in an orchestra, you have your first violins sitting next to them or the second violence. Then you have the violas and the next level of the cellos. Right. And so all the instruments will kind of give each other a hard time and people will make specifically they'll make jokes about the viola and then the violas will fire back with jokes about the violins, but like, it'll be really funny, like funny but also kind of like, they'll they'll try to insult each other like, oh, like, what's the best best note you can hear or the best sound that you can make from a violin? The sound of it hitting a trash can or something like that. I don't know.

Nick VinZant 25:03

Do you check your VAT? When you fly? Do you check your violin and carry on? Or do you bring it with you? Or why do you check your violin? Or do you bring it with you

Mia Asano 25:13

never, ever, ever check your violin because the violin is so delicate that like even when the weather changes, my violin will freak out. And also, as you now know, violins can get pretty expensive. So I'm not trying to replace my violin every time I check it, and it gets broken. So because the air pressure is changing, and stuff like that, so then there's been a bunch of violinists who have tried to get on airplanes. And sometimes I've heard horror stories about the airline trying to force them to check the violin, and you can't because it'll, it'll break it. I feel really bad for cello players, though, what they have to do is either one of my roommates is a cellist and he will either like take the risk and check the cello but put it in like this really intense like case with all this padding in it and just like take the risk or cellist will have to buy a second plane ticket for their cello. And I have some friends that have done it. My brother's a cellist. So if he were to travel with his cello, he would have to buy a second plane ticket and just sit next to it on the flight. And, and yeah,

Nick VinZant 26:21

that's got to be a weird feeling. Yeah, that's got to be strange. Like, sitting here with my cello. Having like, the cello is just in the middle seat. Not only

Mia Asano 26:34

do you have to do this thing, man, like no, this is this child. You got to put it in its seat belt, Jada, offered a drink. It's it's a it is a wrapper of the plane.

Nick VinZant 26:46

Yeah. It is. You paid for the ticket? You better get those snacks for it. Yeah, since

Mia Asano 26:51

but like, yeah, that would demand it. A lot of people will rent instruments and whatever city they're in. Or like for tours and stuff, even if people are flying. Sometimes they'll have like a driver drive all the instruments to the next location. Like it depends, like people find ways around it. But I think like traveling with your instrument is the best way if you can afford it, like obviously, it's a huge expense. But then you're not playing an unfamiliar instrument where you go, but like my high school orchestra, we toured Europe once and went to Austria. And we're playing there and we couldn't bring our cello cello was on the plane. So we just rented cellos when we were there. And the cellist just had to kind of figure out the bass players to they just had to figure it out when they were there. And there was okay.

Nick VinZant 27:32

Let's see, did you just get a flute? Right? What's the little tiny one? Like the piccolo? Yeah, just get? Yeah, put that thing in your pocket. Um, so you've said some words that I didn't definitely recognize. Best piece of violin lingo.

Mia Asano 27:47

Best piece of violin lingo. There's so much it's so cool. And that's the thing is I've been exposed to like German and Italian and sometimes Spanish, because there's all these different in the music does all these different markings, and you got to learn what they mean. So let's see, a lot of people will ask me, Can you play your violin without a bow? And that's actually one of my most viral videos, was me answering that question? And the answer is, yes, you just pluck the string with your finger and it's called pizzicato. So, or for short pits. I like that one a lot. There's I like ricochet. That's where you kind of bounce your ball on the strings. But every time the ball bounces, you play a note. So sounds really cool. I like glissando, that's when you slide into a note. And I do that all the time. There's, I mean, there's so many I could just go on and on and on.

Nick VinZant 28:41

Oh, those are good one. Now is the do is your new album out now? Yeah,

Mia Asano 28:48

um, then the single is out, I'm in the process of writing the album. But the single, I just dropped it on October 20. So it's been out for a couple months now. And people have been really supportive of it. It's on all streaming platforms. And it's also I did a music video in a laser light studio. And that's up on YouTube. So I'm really excited about it.

Nick VinZant 29:08

That's pretty much all the questions that I have, is there anything that you think that we missed or anything like that?

Mia Asano 29:15

No. The last thing I want to say though, is I appreciate when people are open minded about what the violin is capable of. And that's my passion in life is showing people that the violin can break a lot of boundaries and isn't, doesn't need to be intended for just one style or another. You know, there's so many capabilities and the most important thing is to find what speaks to you and pursue that and find what makes you happy. Because there's space for everyone to and if everyone's doing the same thing, then collectively, we can all support each other and that's the best thing we can do.

Bodyflier Inka Cagnasso

Inka Cagnasso spends her life in the air. Sometimes she has a parachute, sometimes she doesn’t. We talk Bodyflying, the awesome power of wind tunnels and the beauty of flight. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Places You Don’t Want to Be Stranded.

Inka Cagnasso: 01:31ish

Pointless: 27:51

Top 5: 47:26

https://www.instagram.com/inkacagnasso (Inka Cagnasso Instagram)

Interview with Bodyflier Inka Cagnasso

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, body flying, and getting stranded,

Inka Cagnasso 0:22

sometimes in the middle of flight, I kind of catch myself thinking like, This is so insane that this is actually possible that I can just be airborne here and, and fly, which is something that so many people dream off. I've been knocked out once in freefall. But I kind of I was like space off for a moment, I remember opening my eyes realizing that no one's there. And I just like, I wish that I could still get the experience that I could walk into a wind tunnel and see someone fly for the first time without understanding that at all, because he must be insane to watch.

Nick VinZant 0:53

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest spends her life flying. Sometimes she has a parachute. Sometimes she doesn't. This is body flyer. Inka can Jaso real quick, when we talk about body flying, that can be done both jumping out of an airplane and in a wind tunnel. And during this conversation we kind of switch back and forth between those. So I just wanted to clarify real quick what is body flying

Inka Cagnasso 1:31

buddy flying the term good refer to a few different things. But basically you're maneuvering and airflow or freefall with your buddy. Like you end up moving from place to another or doing moves like flips or, or something like this. Wow, did

Nick VinZant 1:47

you get into it?

Inka Cagnasso 1:48

I started skydiving first. I really liked it. But it wasn't really like I didn't fall in love with it until I went for the wind tunnel which is like a something that we use as a tool for skydivers really often to improve your freefall skills. And I'm a dancer from my background. And when I got into the winter, I was like alright, this suddenly makes sense. Like this is kind of like a new type of a dance studio dance floor like, whereas before I could do a few scabs a day, get a few minutes of freefall, maybe learn a little bit of something new. Suddenly good actually start training and improving my freefall skills and the body flying skills. So I've never skydive because I'm an adrenaline junkie, I've skydive because I was intrigued by the fact that I can use my body and challenge my body in such a new different way. It's funny, because I've flown for a long time. And I obviously it's kind of like, almost everyday life thing for me now. But sometimes in the middle of flight, I kind of catch myself thinking like, This is so insane that this is actually possible that I can just be airborne here in this in this weird little tunnel. And, and fly, which is something that so many people dream off. I think my favorite part of it is that it gives me this insane feeling of presence. And then you very rarely get to do something where you're so I mean, I guess watersports, but like that you're so connected to an element. And through that, so connected to body,

Nick VinZant 3:23

when you're doing it, what's the difference versus doing it in the tunnel versus kind of doing it outside,

Inka Cagnasso 3:28

we always move towards where we heavy add like it's all about center of gravity and where we shift our weight. But now, it is two completely different sports. Because in one of them, I jump out of an airplane and the risks are different. And I do need to take other things into consideration than just how my body is connected to the airflow. And then in the wind tunnel, it's so much more about just there. And the technical performance side of things. Because I don't have to worry about my parachute. I don't have to worry about the other fliers in freefall. I don't have to think of this kind of stuff. And and also the risks are so different.

Nick VinZant 4:10

Is it one of those situations, and I'll use an example that I'm familiar with. Right? Like I used to do a lot of rock climbing and rock climbing in the gym is fun. It's safer. It's great practice, but like the real thing is outside. Is it the same kind of thing like the people who are in the sport, do they feel the same way?

Inka Cagnasso 4:32

Some people do. But again, it depends on what you're interested in. Because now if you're adrenaline driven when you're skydiving and looking for that adventurous side of it, you're most likely going to prefer skydiving over WinToFlash for me, because I'm so driven by the athletic side of it, I can actually push myself more in the winter. So for me like it's that's why I'm born went on girl that I am a skydiver. I do both. I love both. But I would say I end up doing more complicated things in terms of body flying, when I'm in the window,

Nick VinZant 5:13

what makes you good at it right? Is it the body awareness? Is it just pure strength, like what makes you good at it?

Inka Cagnasso 5:21

There is definitely some presets, like my dancing background really helped me to move towards what I do nowadays, mainly, which is called freestyle. If you watch a freestyle fly, it looks kind of like dance, dancing, acrobatic moves. But I don't think I've done a lot of sports in my life. And I've never really been the most talented person. But when I was really into something, I always been the most like the hardest worker, right? So because I loved it so much, when I started playing in a tunnel, like I've really put all my energy and time and effort into it. And I did a lot of work outside of the tunnel, not just the flying time itself to get better. And I watched a lot of videos, and I was living and breathing in the things to do outside, like, for my discipline, you need to be strong, and you need to be flexible, and you need to have strength within the flexibility. And now when we get into the airflow, and there's all these different directions and dimensions that we haven't tried before, all of that becomes a lot more complicated, because this

Nick VinZant 6:30

is a safe idea. Like is it safe, safe? Like, should we be doing this

Inka Cagnasso 6:36

in the tunnel, or in this game?

Nick VinZant 6:39

The tunnel seems perfectly safe, right? So I would guess of the sky.

Inka Cagnasso 6:43

You can get hurt in a tunnel too. But it's mainly like you're gonna hit the walls of the net. And it's kind of synchronous stuff. If you're training something like trampolines, or like sometimes you just gonna Yeah, but that's about it. In the sky, we can build a lot more speed. And often, I feel like if you're not a skydiver, you're going to be concerned about like, well is the pass you can open. Like, that's what you're going to be worried about. What I would be worried about when I fly with other people is gliding to with the other people. Because we move fast, right? And if we have opposite forces, you can actually hit each other in freefall with like, a lot of power. And it is not a moment when you want to get hurt or unconscious or something like that. So yeah, there's a lot of accidents that do happen during the freefall time and you need to not only be capable of, you know, flying the things you want to fly, but there's also a bunch of rules about like, how can you how are you allowed to approach formation? How do we break off from the formation at the end of the skydive before we pull to just make it safer?

Nick VinZant 7:47

Have you had any close calls?

Inka Cagnasso 7:49

I've been knocked out once in freefall, which Yeah, this was a long time ago. And there was just a miscommunication. So again, like you usually plan the jump beforehand, you know, where you supposed to be going, what you're doing, who are you looking at? Where are the other people in that formation in relation to you? And yet, something just kind of happened? Mid jump, and it was this huge Norwegian dude who flew into me and kicked me in the head. I had Sonny's on under my helmet. The helmet has like a visor but the visor basically slammed the the Sonny's and the Sonny's broke. So I was pretty lucky that I didn't hurt my my iron. Yeah, where's but I kind of I was like space off for a moment. I remember opening my eyes realizing that no one's there. And I just like, went and pulled my parachute and then figured out what had happened. But I've definitely seen a lot of stuff. And it is risky. And you should never forget. That is. I am. I've been jumping for a long time. But I would consider myself a pretty conservative skydiver because the way I see it is that if I'm doubting if I should go for the next jump, whether it feels like too crazy of a plan for the skydive or the weather conditions are tricky, or I'm tired, and I don't feel like focus no matter what the reason is why I'm doubting myself. I already know that I shouldn't go good. And the worst case scenario is like I'm going to lose that one skydive if I don't go and jump. But if I do go worst case scenario is that it could be my last skydive. And if I already knew that there was a reason why I shouldn't go and jump in. It's really dumb to just not respect the dangers of it. That's how I see it.

Nick VinZant 9:38

Obviously, like, I'm not entrenched in the sport, I only, you know, see the negative headlines every time. Something happens to a skydiver. Are people pushing it too much? Or do we just hear kind of about the incidents that happen? Occasionally.

Inka Cagnasso 9:57

You just hear about the incidents because as a sport It's not really like a large audience sport. So people, you would never see headlines that have anything to do with anything else than accidents. It's probably more dangerous for you to drive to work than it is for me to skydive,

Nick VinZant 10:14

now is his body flying completely different than Wingsuit Flying,

Inka Cagnasso 10:19

I don't base jump, which is when you're jumping off an object, right? However, you can fly wingsuits out of the plane too. Because often people mix like BASE jumping and wings to fly, they're not one thing, there's, you know, when your wingsuit and you're wearing this suit, that adds a lot of surface area to your wing to your body. And then now, that's what you controlling. So obviously has a lot to do with body control, because it's still your body that's moving the fabric, but it's also like the pressure of the air with the fabric that you need to take into consideration. It definitely helps if you have good foundation and just flying your body before you put a wingsuit on, it can get a little bit sketchy if you don't know how you're doing.

Nick VinZant 11:11

That's seems like something that you would want to double check on, you know, you see the YouTube videos and things like that. And the thing that I always wonder about it is, is it an inherently dangerous thing? Or are people making it dangerous, by like pushing that edge and I'm going to go as close to the ground or as close to the rocker body fly as far as I possibly can

Inka Cagnasso 11:31

see, because that's like now we can talk about two kinds of accidents is like is the accidents that are actually an accident, right? So something that happened that just it was just bad luck, which you know, that can happen in any that's the car crashes too. But then it's like if you if you get wasted and you jump in your car and you start driving like you're pushing your limits now like you're pushing your your luck with that. So it would be the same with flying. A lot of accidents happen, because we need more, we want to go a little bit further, we want to try new things. However, most people that do that kind of stuff that I know, those people are willing to take the risk. So they understand the situation, they know that they're going a little bit too far. And they can have that conversation before they jump off a cliff that this, this might be it. There's a big chance that this can go wrong. I know that I have zero margin of error, and they're fine with that. Again, I think that's when you're way more adrenaline driven. So that's not that's not my cup of tea. I think it's insane what people can do when it gets to that side of the sport, but it's different things that drives me or interests me

Nick VinZant 12:55

is the wind tunnel aspect of it is that relatively new.

Inka Cagnasso 12:58

I've been flying for 10 years now. And within that time, like there was like only a handful of tunnels around the world and now there's one in every city. So it's definitely getting bigger and bigger. There's more and more skydivers of flying and wind tunnels. There's a lot more non skydivers fly in the wind tunnels. And this has been a huge change because before like when I started like the only people that would put their money into flying or skydivers that just wanted to become better skydivers. And now there's like a whole generation of kids, for example, that they don't even necessarily ever want to skydive.

Nick VinZant 13:36

So how fast is the wind going?

Inka Cagnasso 13:38

Ah, I can go to like I'm in kilometres 300 ks an hour?

Nick VinZant 13:45

Depends 100 sec. 150 160. Something like that a little bit less? Maybe?

Inka Cagnasso 13:50

No, I think a little bit more. But yeah, it is more. Yeah, you're right, you're right. Basically, you can adjust the wind speed.

Nick VinZant 13:57

Have you ever just cranked it all the way up to see what's going to happen? Yep,

Inka Cagnasso 14:00

yep. Most of the tunnels don't really like they don't have the kind of power that it would be impossible to fly in it. But yeah, for sure if you're going to jump in now with no experience and we talked tarp it out like I don't know if you're gonna come out alive like the wind. The power of the wind is crazy. Like you would not assume it because like when you watch experience fly or fly, you don't really you just don't see it and we were tight outfits. So there's no movement of material or anything like that. So you just it looks like I said it looks like floating. But then I don't know if I would jump into the airflow in a baggy t shirt. You would go like Oh, wow, like that's that's crazy how much the wind is actually throwing me at the t shirt.

Nick VinZant 14:49

Can I could I be seven foot 350 and be an excel at this sport or do I have to be like five 400 pounds.

Inka Cagnasso 14:57

So you can learn do all the same stuff, even if you're a bigger person. But for some things, like you're gonna move faster in the airflow when you're a little bit lighter, right? Because it's just, it can just, it's kind of like if you have an engine in a car, and then depending on how was the car weighs, right? Exactly. So if it's a lighter car, you can drive faster with the same engine.

Nick VinZant 15:26

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?

Inka Cagnasso 15:30

I hope so.

Nick VinZant 15:32

I don't know if this applies necessarily. But how far can you go?

Inka Cagnasso 15:36

But it obviously depends on a Oh, hi, do I exit from a plane? Because then I have like, the more time I have the further I can travel. But you can get a pretty good glide ratio out of it. Like, like I said, you're looking down, you're looking at a map, and you can see yourself clearly moving for, for a few miles. That's a wingsuit. You can move a lot.

Nick VinZant 16:00

Yeah, I would imagine like how high are you usually jumping from?

Inka Cagnasso 16:05

Like 13,013, five,

Nick VinZant 16:08

Wow, you really could go could you go higher is that just but that's just generally like, that's where you're gonna do it from.

Inka Cagnasso 16:13

So from 15, we still jump without additional oxygen. If you go higher than that, or if you spend a long time around that altitude, like you need to have oxygen in the plane. So the highest jumps that we do, and like learning environments in normal jumping would be 18,000 feet. And then for like that, and bit of the plane ride be regrade some oxygen

Nick VinZant 16:42

hardest move to do.

Inka Cagnasso 16:46

So there is my nemesis move is something that's a very typical move. In the Freestyle World. It's a flip twist, which you would see on trampolines or any diving really. But when it starts getting into multiple rotations, all of that, it's just something that I've had a hard time with. And in the tunnel we spoke of, it's not really that dangerous, but it is scary, because it's a small closed space, and the walls are really close. And then sometimes in these kind of moves, like the flip twist, like you can create a drive into any direction. And you just need to hope that either you're gonna be able to stop it, or the instructor who's taking care of your safety, they're standing at the door, it's gonna be able to stop it before you smash the wall.

Nick VinZant 17:38

Because you're gonna catch it, it's gonna shoot you one way or another. Yeah. And then like for

Inka Cagnasso 17:41

your own orientation, and knowing where you're at, they can be very confusing when you start adding rotations.

Nick VinZant 17:49

Two part question, I guess, is it a growing sport? And do you think it could ever become mainstream.

Inka Cagnasso 17:57

Um, it is a growing sport, it definitely is like both like within the sport we're growing. But also, I think that external interest towards our sport is growing. So within the time that I've been in the sport, like, it was kind of, we didn't, you didn't get asked to perform to all these like, like, I don't know, live events, or movies, or music videos, or commercials or whatever it was, as much as that happens now, when that kind of interest is there. However, I get a lot of contacts from all these kind of projects, and a very teeny tiny bit of that ends up actually happening. And it's usually due to the limitations, like it's hard to make it available for big audiences. Because it is not something that you can there is these winter laws that you can move around, but they're open air and they're a little bit like smaller and less powerful. So that's a huge, huge thing of it. And before that problem is solved, I cannot really see the sport growing, because you need the big audiences to be able to grow a sport.

Nick VinZant 19:13

Yeah, that is kind of limiting. Right. It's not like you can

Inka Cagnasso 19:17

Yeah, and that was kind of the main problem that I ended up facing. When I get asked it was like, Hey, we have this event like could you please come up before I'm here? And then they like bring your tunnel? Like it's not really something I can just like, like playing Wait me. It is a huge construction. It will take a few years to put one together.

Nick VinZant 19:37

It's yeah, isn't it a race isn't always amazing to me the things that people think before they actually like think about something like what do you mean, just bring the big fan, bring the big fan roll out there?

Inka Cagnasso 19:48

Well, my favorite actually has been a situation where I was asked to come and perform in a TV show in Georgia, the country Georgia. Yeah, yeah.

Nick VinZant 19:59

And today Gotta say it like, it's just Georgia. Like, no,

Inka Cagnasso 20:02

it was so funny as we're having a long conversation about, like the details of it and like, When am I gonna come? What am I going to perform? And they had seen my videos. And then at the end of it, I'm like, Well, what can a wind tunnel? Do you guys have there? And they're like, why is that? I'm like, I cannot actually fly like, I do need a little bit of help for that part. So yeah, that was the end of that.

Nick VinZant 20:29

I can just imagine like you emailing them or telling them that and then the person you are corresponding with then like telling their boss and the whole room of them being confused. Like why? Talking about? Yeah, what is she? What does she mean? She needs a wind tunnel? Should you have won America's Got Talent?

Inka Cagnasso 20:54

Question I think if I should have wanted, I probably would have, right?

Nick VinZant 20:59

What a great diplomatic answer.

Inka Cagnasso 21:03

I never, I never really went there for for me, it was just a great opportunity to be able to bring my sport out there. So I didn't have any form of expectation that it would get somewhere. And that's what

Nick VinZant 21:18

I'll tell you this when somebody suggested this topic to us. And then I looked you up and I saw that video was like, Holy crap. That's really, that's impressive.

Inka Cagnasso 21:29

Right? It's pretty surreal when you see it, like, especially if you don't know anything about the sport. If you've never like flown a tunnel, or you, SK sun or you've never skydived or didn't know that there's freefall, you know that we do something in freefall and skydiving because often we just see the canopies. And then I wish that I could still get the experience that I could walk into wind tunnel and see someone fly for the first time without understanding that at all, because it must be insane to watch.

Nick VinZant 21:57

Best skydiving or body flying seen in a movie or TV show?

Inka Cagnasso 22:02

Oh, no. I have to I don't I'm not gonna name any because I, in general, they're really painful to watch. Most of them are just not realistic. Like, there's more and more movies that they're actually using proper, like stunt fliers and it's done actually skydiving and not like, I don't know. But that freefall part takes way too long. And there's all these they have weird equipment on and and talking to each other in freefall and things like that I like that's just that's not true, it doesn't happen like that. You watch the landings, and it's all like fake. So a lot of that is kind of painful to watch,

Nick VinZant 22:45

you're not talking about Point Break, or you better not be bad mouthing the show.

Inka Cagnasso 22:51

But something that's really cool about windtunnel flying actually, and this is what I've done a little bit is that you don't have to use it for filming a skydive scene. So what I've actually done is like motion capture, but for fighting scenes, because you can do so many crazy things in the airflow that are really hard to actually shoot with, like traditional stump means. Because like, I remember the first time that I was working for mocha project, and they asked me like, can you do two flips in a row. And like what I can do, I can do 200 If you want me to, like, I can just keep going. I could walk on the walls like I can, all those things where you seen the movies, when people I like running on the wall or running up the wall and throwing flips out of it. Like for me that's like, super easy, and effortless to do. And then if you think of the setup that you would have to have to film it with normal stuff mean so I, I hope fingers crossed, because I love working like this, that there's gonna be more of this kind of use for flying in movies.

Nick VinZant 23:56

Best piece of body flying lingo, do you think that anyone will ever be able to jump out of a plane? And just land on the ground?

Inka Cagnasso 24:03

Depends on what you jump out of the plane with, like, without, without a parachute, but still. Yes, someone will do it eventually with like, a wingsuit or something like this. I mean, you've seen the the jet man stuff, for example. And they're able to take off all of that, but even with wingsuits like people are able to basically like because we never go up in freefall. Right? Right. If we could go up that means that we could land without a parachute. But even with some of the wingsuits like people are able to basically slow down their flow rate so much that they they're going to zero. So yeah, it will happen. It's just a matter of time and someone deciding to make the commitments.

Nick VinZant 24:54

What Yes, that's the hard part. Right? Yeah. What's what's kind of like what's the reason that people Can't do it right now they're falling too fat, like you can't slow down enough before hitting the ground.

Inka Cagnasso 25:06

Yeah, exactly that would be the issue

Nick VinZant 25:10

is that the downward trajectory, or the outward trajectory.

Inka Cagnasso 25:17

Because what we actually do under canopy is that we do something and we call it like a turning the canopy for the landing. So we do it turn. And we pick up a little bit more speed from that turn because we start diving, like what our canopy and then at the bottom of that turn, we basically start translating that dive into forward speed. And this is a very comfortable way of landing. Like, this is what we actually trying to do. So instead of like us moving down and landing from that downward energy, we're trying to move forward. So yeah, it's definitely the going down bid that needs to be controlled.

Nick VinZant 25:57

That's one of those things, it doesn't seem like you're getting a second chance, right? Like, what's the future of it?

Inka Cagnasso 26:02

You know, within the sport, there's a lot of talk about, we tried to get to the Olympics and all of this, and there's like big dreams, I'm sure it's gonna happen at some point that are not sure that's going to happen. At some point, I'm sure that we're gonna grow. But I think there's a lot of steps to take before something like this. It is a small sport. But I think we have a good community win competitions, and all of that that might be interesting to the bigger audience in the future. But I think the future is in all of these things that I've been talking about, like kinda everything that has entertainment value, I think that's going to be like flying is going to be more attractive to the bigger audience as a form of entertainment, that is as a competition. Because it's confusing to watch right now. Like, if you go and like you don't know what you're looking at, you're watching the competition. Yeah, like, oh, well, they're flying, but like, you cannot really grasp a lot of it. But you don't need to know how to dance to be able to appreciate a dance performance, or you don't need to be able to sing to be able to, you know, listen to that and and enjoy it, then hopefully through that, then slowly, the interests of the sport side of flying is going to grow as well.

Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace

What do the things you buy really say about you? And how are companies using that to get you to spend more than you might want. Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace joins us to explain the growing psychology behind consumer culture. We talk shopping display secrets, fast fashion, conscious consumerism and the subtle messages major brands are sending. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Annoying Public Behaviors.

Professor Sarah Grace: 01:48

Pointless: 29:34

Top 5 Public Annoyances: 43:20

https://www.tiktok.com/@profsarahgrace (Prof. Sarah Grace TikTok)

http://sarahcgrace.com (Prof. Sarah Grace Website)

Interview with Consumer Culture Expert Professor Sarah Grace

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, shopping secrets, and public annoyances,

Professor Sarah Grace 0:22

culture, in a way has been replaced by consumer culture. Because the things that shaped us, a lot of what is around us is defined by material objects that we buy, what is XYZ company really selling, you know, kind of romanticizes you and it gets you out of your rational, unreflective mind. And it kind of takes you like to this dreamy state where you might make an irrational decision and spend way more than you thought you were going to make. If you had one of those cars that would say a few different things about you. One, that you're an early adopter of trends, you are forward thinking and innovative, but you also care what people think about you.

Nick VinZant 1:08

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, or leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So we've all heard the sayings about how you are your stuff, you are the things that you buy. But why do you buy the things that you buy? Our first guest is an expert in the psychological ways that brands used to try and get you to buy their stuff. And what the stuff that you buy really says about you. This is consumer culture expert, Professor Sarah Grace. So what is consumer culture really

Professor Sarah Grace 1:50

hard to explain, but culture is something that is around us no matter where we are. And it's one of those things that's often unreflected on, but it influences so many aspects of our life. Well, in our modern worlds, culture, in a way has been replaced by consumer culture. Because the things that shape us, it's not just values, it's not just music, it's not just where we go to church, or if we go to church, a lot of what is around us is defined by material objects that we buy, and things that are marketed towards us. So consumer culture is this thing that we all navigate daily, because every day we wake up, and we try to decide, I'm going to wear this and present myself to the world this way, I'm going to pull out this brand of computer and it's going to have these different stickers on it to communicate something both to myself about myself, but also to others about who I am. And a lot of times our identity and our values and the way that we kind of get by in this world, we navigate through the help of consumer objects.

Nick VinZant 3:01

But it's it's true in the sense that right like we kind of our our stuff, like you could look at the things that I wear and that I own in my car and pretty much get a really good idea of exactly who I am. Is there is there a point like looking back in history where you can identify like, this is where that really changed. And now you are your stuff.

Professor Sarah Grace 3:23

Even back in the Middle Ages, there were gilts of people who grouped together based off of their trade. And different guilds were identified by their clothing, or what they wore, or even think about royal royalty, they were certain colors. And so you could identify who was of different social standings based off of their objects that they adorned on their body. And they actually prevented people who are peasants or lower levels than them from being able to wear certain colors or wear certain things. So actually, this idea, and it goes back to the ancient Romans and Greeks, too.

Nick VinZant 4:00

So like how are companies trying to get us to buy stuff we don't need.

Professor Sarah Grace 4:05

So if you think about basic economics, there's supply and there's demand. So the way that you asked your question assumes that there is more supply than demand. And companies are trying to push things on consumers that they don't want. And historically, like when sales and marketing originated in the early 1900s. That is how a lot of companies operated as they would like create a ton of this type of vacuum and they would have door to door salesmen. And they would have people go out and try to sell this thing that they already created. Well in the 50s 60s 70s that started to switch and marketers really started focusing on well what do consumers want and started creating things, less of a push system and more of a pool system so started creating things based off of what consumers either said they want one and versus via research and focus groups and those sorts of things. Or based off of what consumers were actually buying, so they might have looked at point of sale data, which is a technology that was introduced in the mid century. And they might have said, well, consumers are buying a lot of cans, pineapple. Let's make more of that. And let's make more varieties of that. So the thinking around our companies pushing us things versus are we demanding things and they're responding to that, that desire, the shifting, and that has changed. So I think it's a little bit of both. But for companies to grow, they have to create something new, too, so that consumers will want to replace the things that they already have with those new things. And so that's where we get trend cycles in the marketplace. And the easiest industry to see this in is with fashion. So fashion trend cycles are a beautiful example. They've gotten really short in the last few years. Whereas people used to buy a new dress, maybe once a year, and then they would buy another new dress next year. And they would keep those in their wardrobe for years and years and years and repair them over time as they wore out. Now, the trend cycling what is in fashion, or what is on trend, has shortens. And so you as a consumer feel like I need to buy more often. And I need to replace these things that I already have. That may be perfectly fine. And innovation is a good thing. I don't want that to come off the wrong way companies are incentive buys to innovate. But sometimes they innovate needlessly. And that's when we have access. And you also have consumers feeling like they have to replace perfectly good stuff and get rid of things just because it's no longer maybe on trend.

Nick VinZant 6:54

Who's driving the car, though? Like, are we driving the car? Are the companies driving the car? Like I could have the

Professor Sarah Grace 7:03

I don't know, anybody know, knows who is driving the car. I think that there are people who have really strong stances, and some people would say it is purely companies driving the car, through marketing through promotion through incessant advertising, they're spinning up the wheels of consumer desire. I think that there's some truth in that. But I also think going back to consumer culture, if companies stopped advertising today, they spent not another dime on advertising. We wouldn't know what to do, we wouldn't be content, or know how to not still buy new stuff that we don't need.

Nick VinZant 7:46

Is there a segment of society that kind of keeps that engine going more than other ones? Oh, I

Professor Sarah Grace 7:53

hate to point fingers. I think if you're using the fashion industry, again, social media has really changed this because if you are a high schooler in the Midwest, and you went to school, and you're walking down your hallway, you might have seen like, oh, there's some like new trends. And like, maybe I need to go to the mall and pick up this new sequined purse or whatever it is. But you only kind of saw what was in your community. Social media obviously blew that out. And there are there's this new trend of influencers, posting shopping hauls, especially from fast fashion retailers, like Shi n or forever 21. But primarily Sheehan and I think that, you know, they put those out on YouTube, they put those out on tick tock or Instagram. And they have tons of people just watching them open these $500 orders from this month. And then next month, they're going to do the same thing. And they normalize this idea of it's normal to get a new thing for this one occasion or event, wear it, take a picture and it posted on social media and not touch it again. Because it was so cheap. It was a $7 pair of shorts, that, you know, I got my $7 worth, and then move on. And so again, I hate to point the finger on any one group. But influencer culture is one that has popped up in the last few years that I think keeps that alive. And it also because it's global, you see people, you know, consume in ways that you might not have seen if it was just the people that you saw in person. I

Nick VinZant 9:39

have a personal bias in this that may kind of contaminate the conversation. But I've always been the person that like look, I got the same T shirt I had in high school. I've been driving the same car for 10 years, right? Like I buy nothing new. So my question is though, like, can we stop this? Because if we suddenly stopped buying this stuff, then what happens to the People who got hired to make this stuff, right, like there's, there's this the economy collapse if we get ourselves out, have we painted ourselves into a corner with this?

Professor Sarah Grace 10:08

And I think that that is a really good question. And when you're thinking about any kind of system change, or promoting some sort of systemic change, you have to think of all the different stakeholders who are affected. And what's interesting about our consumer culture is that our consumption and our production is pretty far apart from most of the items that we consume, whether it's food, whether it's clothes, whether it's home goods, meaning that we have, we've offshored most of our production. So I took an economic development class from an amazing professor in my undergrad, who was from Bangladesh. And this was the point the exact question that she posed to us is, okay, we stop buying fast fashion clothes that are made by women and Bangladesh, what happens to those women? What are their alternatives? And I don't know the answer to your question. But I do think what is important is for us to realize how connected our consumption behaviors are both good and bad, globally. So the things that you consume in the United States, in a Midwestern suburb, in New York City, in California, wherever impact people across the world, in both good and bad ways. It does give people jobs. But the question is, are those jobs safe? Are they paying a living wage? Do those people have jobs, but then their river or their water source is polluted because of the factory that's in their town? And so it's a very complicated question that I can't provide an answer to. But I think that you have to think of all the good and bad things that are connected.

Nick VinZant 12:00

Do most people when they buy something, like, do we know what we're really doing? Do we know who's actually making this? What their principles as a company are? Or am I just like grabbing this thing off the shelf and like, yeah, that's a medium t shirt. And that's what I'm looking for.

Professor Sarah Grace 12:16

I think for most of us, shopping, and consuming is a passive behavior. It's an unreflected upon behavior, it's just part of what we do. It's just normal. And it's not something that we stop and think a whole lot about. And you probably picked the one that your parents used to buy. And that's the one that you get, and that's the one that you buy for the rest of your life. And you just don't think about it. There are very few times that we stop and like, really think about our purchases. If you're buying a house, or a car, or an engagement ring, something big you stop and you really think and reflect on it. But most of our consumer behavior is that more like fast, habitual, like we're just kind of moving through the actions and conscious consumerism. To me, people define it differently is that act of just stopping pausing thinking through slowing down in the way that we think about our consumption behavior.

Nick VinZant 13:19

Are you ready for some listener submitted questions? Sure. It seems to be a big thing about brands being authentic. Are brands really authentic? Or is this fake authenticity that they're now basically, like, we figured out how to act like that? 31, I guess, what do you think about this push for authenticity,

Professor Sarah Grace 13:41

brands are kind of put into this place where they have to differentiate themselves, and be unique. And one way that they are unique is to have a personality. And if you have a personality, you don't want to have a phony personality. So of course, you want to have an authentic personality. And I think that for a lot of brands, it differs. But the way that a brand can be authentic, is to go back to their origin story. Every brand has a founder, and a reason for being someone somewhere decided this product needs to be here. And here's why. And so if a brand can go back to that origin story of why the brand exists in the first place, maybe tap into the spirit or the ethos of the founder. That's the way to create an authentic brands, not to try to contrive a story that you think your consumers want to hear.

Nick VinZant 14:36

Is there a store that stands out in your mind, like you walk in and the way that it's organized, or set up the lighting, whatever, gets people to maybe buy something that they otherwise wouldn't have?

Professor Sarah Grace 14:52

That's a hilarious question, because I'm literally doing a Tik Tok series on this right now. And In it, all of the videos start off and they say, What is XYZ company really selling, and kind of paint a picture of how the brand makes you feel a certain way when you enter your space, and how it transports you to a different state of feeling a certain way about yourself or, you know, kind of romanticizes you and it gets you out of your rational, unreflective mind. And it kind of takes you like to this dreamy state where you might make an irrational decision and spend way more than you thought you were going to make. And so a brand truly sweeps you off your feet. And then you walk out and you're like, how did I just spend $200 on a tea kettle? Because the object itself is maybe nice, but it's not that nice. So to answer your question, a couple that I've featured recently are anthropology, which is a retailer that mostly caters to women's clothing and home goods, stationery, mugs, candles, things like that, and they sell an entire feeling of kind of like, like, what's the word?

Nick VinZant 16:20

I know what you're, I know what you're trying to like, right? Like, I've got my life together. And it's good kind of feeling

Professor Sarah Grace 16:27

that to that too. But also, like, I am a free spirit who has my life together, right? It's not, because you have to have a lot of money to shop there. So you have to have some sort of income coming in. But you also it's not like your J Crew preppy, you know, blazer style, it's this bohemian kind of free spirit vibe as well. And so it might even be that it's offering you an escape from your nine to five corporate job into this imagined state where you're really a free spirit going to a Grateful Dead concert. So anthropology does a great job of romanticizing the consumer, and they spend a lot of time in each of their stores, merchandising their product, they hire local artists to come in and do different window displays, they flip and rotate the way that their merchandise is displayed. I've heard on a weekly basis so that if you walk in every week, it feels a little bit different, even though it's the same merchandise.

Nick VinZant 17:34

Is there an example of one that's the exact opposite?

Professor Sarah Grace 17:38

Hmm. Well, anthropology is trying to sell you on a motion, so that you'll pay a little bit more. A lot of your lower price retailers are not trying to sell you any kind of an emotion. They're just trying to serve that functional need for you. So if you think of like $1 tree, or $1, General, you go in there and there is no romanticization is basically the product and the prices. And it's very straightforward.

Nick VinZant 18:08

It's kind of I sometimes I guess I just feel like a fish that is always getting caught.

Professor Sarah Grace 18:14

Well, perhaps part of the reason for that is that market research is really good. And consumer research is really good. They know a lot about you. companies spend a lot of energy, you know, going on trend scouting hunts, and they will peruse the internet, and they'll practice social listening activities to see what people are talking about organically. And when they spot an opportunity. Of course, they're going to try to package it up. And how do we sell that back? Marketers have become ethnographers in a way where they observe the culture and they observe consumers and their natural habitats. And they stay out of the way. And they take notes and they make observations and they draw conclusions about what they see going on. Or they they take data and see what consumers are actually buying. And they use that without ever actually talking to the customer. And then they are able to put together an offering that resonates with the consumer, and the consumer gets it and they're like, Hmm, this company really knows me. And it's because yes, they are deeply observing your behavior.

Nick VinZant 19:32

What is Twiggy? Can you spell it CHEUGY Oh, I'm pronouncing that like so badly. It's a completely different word, isn't it? Okay, well, it's a different word. What is it actually? So what you're trying to say is Chuki which is a terrible sounding word. It's awful. It's awful choice. sounds better to me

Professor Sarah Grace 20:01

cheeky? Well, I don't even want to say it. Um, so Chuki is a word that I didn't know existed until I got on Tik Tok. And it basically goes like this, people would post a video, and they would say, these are the things that are two key. And then they would show, you know, a slideshow of consumer objects, like pants, or a style of shoe or whatever, that they viewed as a mix of both dated but also oversaturated. So it was a consumer trend at one point that was everywhere. accessible to many people, they got it, it was probably eight or so years ago. And now people are labeling it as Chuki. So instead of just saying like, Oh, that's outdated. It's like I say that, but it has a little bit of like an insult flair to it.

Nick VinZant 21:02

It's you're hopping on a trend too late, or you stayed on it too long.

Professor Sarah Grace 21:06

You stayed on it too long, is what it is. Um,

Nick VinZant 21:09

okay. You're very objective. So I'm gonna try to ask you this question in a way that maybe you can answer without saying if you judge it negatively or positively, what brand would tell you the most about somebody like, oh, this brand? I know exactly who you are.

Professor Sarah Grace 21:31

I think that the easier a brand is to describe the stronger the brand is. And this has changed too in the past couple years. Right. So the first brand that I wanted to say was Tesla. Oh, yeah, yeah, I feel like even in the past couple of years, because their production has ramped up and their distribution has increased. More people own Tesla's than before, but two years ago, if you'd asked me that question, easily, my answer would be Tesla. And if you had one of those cars, it would say a few different things about you. One, that you're an early adopter of trends, you are forward thinking and innovative, but you also care what people think about you. And I think that all three of those things are true of early Tesla owners. That might stir some people up.

Nick VinZant 22:24

Can you break down? Like in your research, have you done studied this so much that like you can break down people by exactly the brand? Like if I'm like, okay, Patagonia, right, can you like, so you are this,

Professor Sarah Grace 22:37

that's another one that's changed so much in the past 10 years, as well, like Patagonia 10 years ago, meant something much tighter because the people who wore Patagonia were in a very specific subset of mostly an outdoor crowd, like you are buying Patagonia to go hiking or to go rock climbing. But I live in a college town. So when I go to the store, I see Patagonia on everybody. Everybody's wearing Patagonia. And these are not necessarily people that are going out and participating in outdoor extreme sports. So that's a brand that the meaning has. I don't want to say evaporated, but the meaning has diluted over time, as people who are not in their target market adopt it. And that's what happens is the bigger brand gets their brand meeting is not as tight anymore.

Nick VinZant 23:36

Is there a brand that just tells you nothing about someone

Professor Sarah Grace 23:41

Apple like and I feel like 10 years ago, again, Apple might have told you a little bit of something. But now I think people buy Apple because it's the cultural norm. And I think that it's ubiquitous. But again, I'm on a in a college town. So it seems like everybody has an Apple computer. Or an everyone has air pods and I just don't feel like it tells me anything.

Nick VinZant 24:06

I feel like it tells me something if they have an Apple computer, not an iPhone necessarily, right? Like I don't see the difference in people's phones, like oh, that tells I mean unless it's like a burner phone, and then you're probably a drug dealer or you've got something else going on, you know, kind of knows something about you.

Professor Sarah Grace 24:25

I think that's a good point. So the iPhone brand in particular. Um, but when I was teaching, it was always interesting, everyone would sit down, pull out their laptops, and nine times out of 10 It was an apple. But those nine people were all very different.

Nick VinZant 24:43

I could ask you questions about every single brand that you could imagine forever, but to avoid that, like Are there any other brands that you would that stand out to you and like this means this or this doesn't mean anything?

Professor Sarah Grace 24:56

Hmm. Um, Starbucks is another brand that I've been really boggled by the last few years, when you read about the history of Starbucks, Howard Schultz, the previous CEO, he had gone to a trip on a trip to Milan, Italy and fell in love with cafe culture, and wanted to bring back to America. And so he got to the States, he tried to like recreate cafe culture, Starbucks as a third place to home and work, a place for people to like be in gathering and socialize the Starbucks brand to me, doesn't mean that anymore, and I can't put my finger on what it means. Because Starbucks has things like unicorn frappuccinos, which are kind of like a goofy Instagrammable play. They're not necessarily Italian coffee shop there, kind of all over the place. And that's a brand that is an example of, I think they have some work to do. What is great about brands is that they can be markers of things like quality, I think that brands play an important role. I just don't think that they should play an outsized role in our lives. So brands have a place because they do legitimize what you're buying, or at least that was the original idea. Some brands, take advantage of that basic assumption and make it seem like you're getting more than you're actually getting.

Nick VinZant 26:39

Like, I feel like a Mercedes Benz and BMW are basically kind of the same kind of car, at least in the United States. But the Mercedes Benz says something completely different about something that BMW says, like I look at someone who bought a Mercedes, and I think that's a person who's probably duty pretty, pretty financially. Well, not they're not ostentatious, and they want something that works. I see somebody, I've never met a man who drives a BMW, that's not a douchebag. That doesn't exist. That that's an immediate sign to me. Oh, that makes complete sense.

Professor Sarah Grace 27:11

Yeah, right. Well, that were that you used sign. I don't want to go off on a rabbit trail. But there's a whole field of marketing that looks at the study of sign meanings. And what things signify is called semiotics. And it's actually not just a marketing exclusive field, it actually was born out of linguistics. But semiotics is the study of science. And so that's part of what I studied in my training in consumer culture is to understand, okay, these things signify certain things, things to different people. And sometimes people interpret those meanings differently. So a lot of times marketers are trying to really tightly figure out what those meanings are, and then manage them, because they want everyone to interpret BMW the same way. That's when you have a strong brand. So like I said, Starbucks, I have a hard time defining what Starbucks is right now. And that's because different people would define the brand differently. And I don't think that they're managing those meanings in a really uniform way. And strong brands have a pretty uniform, meaning is shopping

Nick VinZant 28:22

difficult for you. Like, I feel like you would go into a store and just evaluate, like, every single thing like, Oh, I know why they put that display there.

Professor Sarah Grace 28:31

Shopping is not fun for me anymore. Sometimes if I can, like detach myself, but I feel like I know, too. You know too much.

Ski Jumpers Nina Lussi and Casey Larson

Racing downhill at nearly 60 miles an hour, Ski Jumpers Casey Larson and Nina Lussi launch themselves hundreds of feet into the air. We talk ski jumping, the upcoming Olympics, groundhog hazards and why ski jumpers always put their hands out the car window. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Winter Activities.

Casey Larson and Nina Lussi: 01:27ish

Pointless: 24:57ish

Top 5: 43:20ish

https://www.instagram.com/caseylarson (Casey Larson Instagram)

https://www.instagram.com/ninalussi (Nina Lussi Instagram)

https://twitter.com/NinaLussi (Nina Lussi Twitter)

Interview with Nina Lussi and Casey Larson

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, ski jumping, and snow activities,

Nina Lussi 0:21

it's ski jumping is so beautiful because it's, I don't know, it's like the world turns off and you're just out there in the elements by by yourself.

Casey Larson 0:31

If you let go of the bar and you get in your interim position, you're going off that ski jump, whether you like it or not. And then once you let go, you got to be ready to handle whatever happens. So if the winds not right, you know, you trust your coach with your life

Nina Lussi 0:43

stand under the takeoff. And you can hear the rush of the skier coming down. And then you can, like, see them shoot right over your head and kind of start flying. Oh, man,

Casey Larson 0:55

well, sometimes you get bugs. And that's always a fun one. Like if you get a little like be splattered on your goggles. If you'd freak out a little bit.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guests are some of the best ski jumpers in the world. And right now they're getting ready to try to represent the United States at the Winter Olympics. This is Casey Larson. And Nina Lucy, did you set out to be a ski jumper? Or did this was this something that just happened?

Casey Larson 1:31

I mean, I started ski jumping when I was six years old started just kind of goofing around in the winters, it was a good way to like you know, in between t ball and you know, flag football season per se. But then pretty quickly, it took off into something a little bit bigger, for sure.

Nina Lussi 1:45

We could say that ski jumping found me. Now. I'm from Lake Placid, New York, we had the Winter Olympics in 1980, and 32. So grew up in an Olympic Village upon skis, so as on skiing by age three. And so my brother and I tried it together. And we're basically we're hockey ever since. So

Nick VinZant 2:06

what is it about it? What do you like about it,

Nina Lussi 2:08

it's scheduling is so beautiful, because it's, you have to find the edge of like, risk, but also control and when you're in it, time slows down and you're you can feel the air and you can this like, I don't know, it's like the world turns off, and you're just out there, in the elements by by yourself.

Casey Larson 2:30

Do it was the one thing that I wasn't just, I didn't naturally pick up very well. I didn't naturally pick up this like, you know, golf esque, like super technical sport very easily it was it was kind of tough for me. And then it just became this like addiction to just try and make sure I could, you know, I could bring my arms in, or I could be more aerodynamic or I could do all these things. And, you know, I really didn't realize how much I liked, you know, kind of diving into that, that that side of the sport until like high school. And even after high school,

Nick VinZant 2:57

watching it on TV, I can never decide if this is a simple sport, that's just go down a hill and jump. Or if there's something that's really technical about it, and I don't see it.

Casey Larson 3:09

I call I mean, I call it an extreme version of golf in that sense. Like you can apply like, you know, the amount of video watching and the amount of you know, you know, technical analysis, the amount of just overall, like contorting your body is very similar to golf. I mean, in the sense of you just have to hit this tiny little thing in a 250 yards. Whereas a ski jumper, you have to just you are the ball, right? You are trying to, you know, take off so perfectly. And so my Newton, the differences are so small that you just got to it's very applicable in that sense to the slumps and the highs and the lows of those two sports where sometimes you're feeling it sometimes the rhythms there. And then other days, it's definitely not.

Nick VinZant 3:48

So what are you trying to do? Are you trying to go faster into the jump? Are you trying to time the jump, right? Is it when you're in the air? Like what's the what's what's the goal there?

Nina Lussi 4:01

The takeoff portion is pretty critical the speed. It's a designated start spot for everybody. So yeah, I mean, we spent time working on how to keep your skis super straight and super like in the middle of the tracks, so there's less friction and so that you're going as fast as possible and obviously wax and everything. But the takeoff portion is the simple move from like the Enron position, like the squat type thing into the air, and that's where you're propelling yourself into the flight. And if you can do that, you want to put as much power down onto like down on the on the takeoff, but also move yourself kind of project yourself forward out over your skis. So that's really important and so that the timing aspect of that and the force that you're putting down, but also you don't want to be super powerful and like use a lot of muscle and then you're shooting too far up and then your skis are coming at you. So then, so you need to shoot yourself out basically perfectly and reduce the amount of drag. And then when you're in the air, you're trying to surf right above the air and kind of pull away from the hill, because the takeoff is actually shooting you down. So it's at minus 12 degrees. So it's not launching you up.

Nick VinZant 5:23

It's pointed, I never noticed that it's pointed. I just, it's not a ramp, is it?

Nina Lussi 5:29

No. And that's what everyone thinks they think it's like shooting you straight up. It's actually shooting you at the ground.

Nick VinZant 5:35

Do you just like, changed my entire perception of ski jumping my entire? I always thought that like, oh, yeah, there's a little ramp on the end. And then they go up like they try to jump off the ramp.

Nina Lussi 5:45

With the takeoff with the takeoff power, you're going up because you're, you're literally jumping off the ground. So then, so then you're coming up like that, but you're creating that you're not using, you're not using the the jump.

Nick VinZant 6:00

Yeah, and anybody who's ever like tried to run downhill and jump off of a downhill. That's way more complicated than kind of jumping off flat ground or like jumping off of an uphill.

Casey Larson 6:11

Yeah, I haven't thought about that. But yeah, where you would want to jump forward, but still down to that you can kind of keep your speed going

Nick VinZant 6:20

from when you kind of jump to when you land. How long How far are we talking

Casey Larson 6:27

250 meters through the air. It's that's that's the world record in my I've gone 216 and a half meters on the same day, the world record set. So my my personal best was out shine for sure. But 216 meters, that's still almost 230 yards, 240 yards,

Nick VinZant 6:44

you're still talking like a couple of city blocks. When you're flying over a couple of city blocks where

Casey Larson 6:49

you're, you're flying over. You're flying from UC takeoff through one goalpost. And then you go through two more goalposts and then you land at the 50 yard line, right?

Nick VinZant 7:03

That's insane when you think about it that way that you're essentially flying over two and a half football fields. Okay, this is my armchair analysis of it. So watching it like all right, you jump right at the end, right? Like, how hard is that? Why is it difficult not to like jump at the right time, every time.

Casey Larson 7:22

I don't know I'm in trying to figure that out for like 10 years now. And I still have it. So I think that's my biggest issue is just like why why I always you know, timing is the probably the biggest one just like that take off the minute like bringing your chest up a little bit, or just not getting all the power down, whether that be in your shin it like just not being in the correct position, I'm not putting 100% of the power that you possibly can put down down and getting into that aerodynamic position, you're going to be you're just screwed right off the bat. So you really can't bring your chest up at all, you really got to just stay low, and then just use your legs and go. And at the end of the day, it is a simple sport. And that's kind of the thing is, the older you get, the easier it looks. And that's the whole point of sport is those professionals, the guys that are winning the Olympics, and even me sometimes I make it look really easy. Whereas and that's the whole point of the sport is, is I think I want people to say that I want people to think it's an easy sport, because if they're watching me when they say that, that just means I'm doing it right.

Nick VinZant 8:20

When you kind of actually get into the air, what are you trying to do once you're in the air,

Casey Larson 8:25

that's like, what makes a good ski jumper good is like when he gets in the air when she's in the air. You just kind of naturally note to do. You're trying to, you know, extend and pull away from the hill and just kind of, you know, glide on that cushion of air that you've created for yourself. And are you

Nick VinZant 8:39

like you're trying to achieve a certain like angle though, and things like that, right? Yes,

Casey Larson 8:44

like, it's when you're driving on the highway later today. Or, you know, if you're in your car, pop the window open and stick your hand out. And you'll notice like, if you have it down here, it's gonna dive straight into the ground. If you bring it up here, your hands going to go back to the back of the window. But then you're going to find this little happy medium where your hand just wants to go straight up. And that's the body position we're trying to find with our skis and our body. We're just trying to be not too far aerodynamic, but not also not too far back. Just something where that wiggle just bring us right up

Nick VinZant 9:13

is a great analogy, honestly, like I perfectly understand it right now. Like oh, no, he's correct. So does that mean like you spend a lot of time in car rides? Sticking your hand out the window?

Casey Larson 9:24

Definitely. Yeah. Even Even today, even when it's like 25 degrees out in Park City. Oh,

Nick VinZant 9:30

just to test it out, just to get a feel for it. What kind of like when you when you look at your training, like what kind of training are you generally doing for it

Nina Lussi 9:38

depends on the time of year. So the spring we're usually we're improving our general aerobic capacity, so a lot more of running and that kind of thing. So that's like basic stretching follows you through the whole year. A lot of core falls you through the whole year. Try to build up more muscle with it. squats in that type of thing more in the summer. And then in the winter, less reps, but still high weight to keep the strength. A lot of hurdles coordination, so ladders balance slacklining. Generally, also some things like we do usually two days of in the summer of wakesurfing. So you like, have a nice feeling of where how your feet are moving into kind of, because in in jumping, you need to, like feel the balance and like, be able to be soft without like sub you can, if there are different conditions on the snow, if it's like gets really slow. If you're like super rigid in your position that'll throw you off. But if you can absorb it, then that's that's really important.

Nick VinZant 10:49

So okay, how much control do you have to have if you're coming up to it? And I'm a big kind of math numbers person. So Right. So imagine that you're going down there and you could give 100% Everything you've got into the jump? Can you do it that way? Or do you have to kind of hold back a little bit so that you can land this thing?

Nina Lussi 11:10

Well, you're it's not really an explosive movement. It's like, like a tennis swing or something. Like if you try to really like slam it, it's not going to be as efficient as if you do a really long, smooth, but also a strong stroke. And so that's basically what we're trying to do. So that your best jumps don't feel like you're trying that hard. But you're just maximizing the the output by using like, one time this one coach told me that in ski jumping, you want to use as little like as few muscles as possible. And I was like, like, What do you mean, he was like, well, all the extra stuff that you're adding, that's like that's not helping you. He's like, it's like I'm in orchestra when you can hear them playing. And it sounds like one, one voice and you hear them and it's perfect. But some of like, at a lower level. You can hear all the separate instruments and they aren't exactly in tune. And so that's when the other the extra muscles are involved. So when you can get everything into that one singular sound that is when things are like ideal.

Nick VinZant 12:20

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure, let's get to it. Strangest thought you've ever had while in the air.

Casey Larson 12:28

Oh man, well sometimes hit bugs. And that's always a fun one. Like if you get a little like be splattered on your goggles if you'd freak out a little bit. But I will say when I was a little kid, I do remember letting go of the bar on a smaller Hill. So I was totally okay. But I remember being like I didn't put my bindings in. And the way the ski jumping boot works is you kind of slam this little, this little piece of plastic into the back of the booth that allows your your heel to come off the ski a little bit. I was like I didn't put that in. So I remember jumping into the air and just wanting you. And it was it was the most scared I've ever been in my life. It was It was wild. I felt like I was I was okay. Thankfully, you know, you get learnt you learn how to falls at a young age, you definitely make enough mistakes where you can fall safely. Basically just keep your knees straight in the air and you're going to be totally fine. Your body's gonna stay relatively straight. But I was I was freaking out.

Nina Lussi 13:21

I mean, one time there was there was like a little there was a groundhog that was running across the land and kale and I could see it below me while it was flying. So I thought, Oh, I hope I don't hit that.

Nick VinZant 13:37

Will you sometimes like jump and kind of veer off to one side or veer off to one side in the air? Or do you pretty much just go straight?

Casey Larson 13:46

Well, your body's never symmetric. But you also naturally want to go straight. So you find these ways to correct so mice, my skis are never symmetrical, but I go straight, if that makes sense. But obviously wind whatever conditions whatever it may be, you end up having some gems where you go to one side more or less, but those hills are massive, allow for like a pretty big amount of play. So you're never too worried about like, you know, landing on the other mining in the grass or landing, you know, off the hill. But yeah, you you learn how to deal with it and you end up if you do it enough times, you're not gonna get too scared by it. So you end up not just knowing how to deal with it, I guess,

Nick VinZant 14:18

for my kind of understanding, so imagine like zero is completely straight. How much will you drift to one side? Are we talking like five meters? 10 meters like, oh, you I've seen a guy drift like 30 meters to one side. Yeah,

Casey Larson 14:34

I mean, there's definitely athletes that are known for it. And we say the winds the winds better on the right side of the hill. So you go to the right side of the hill. That's not true. But you see some athletes just do it. And they're totally fine. And then they have a play of like, you know, 1015 meters so those hills really big into landing Hill. See, they're allowed to do it and they're totally fine. They end up being you know, they're nothing, you know, changes but at the end of the day, I always think like, well, that's just extra meters. I could be flying straight but I'm not flying to the right, you know, so I just think like the straighter the better. But obviously there's there's athletes out there that break those rules and you know winning competitions doing it,

Nick VinZant 15:09

how far up above where you jump is where you usually land. Yeah, the hills

Casey Larson 15:15

are steep. So you're definitely not like flying across flat ground. It's not like water ski jumping that you might have seen on TV where it's like they're they're just flying across the water and then landing completely flat, we have this big hill, we're able to kind of coast on and coast down. So that's why we're able to land so far. That's why we're able to like be relatively safe at the same time to you know, knock on wood. Injuries are pretty limited in ski jumping, obviously, some knee, see some knee injuries and stuff like that. But for the most part, the impact is super low. The only the only sport at the Olympics, it's safe within ski jumping at that level is curling. But yeah, that's kind of why it's so safe, because we're just following the super steep hill just kind of flying along it. And then it does start to flatten out at some point. And that's called the K point, that's when I refer to the size of the hills like the K 10k 20. That just means the hill flattens out at 120 meters. And then after that, I see your mark, you have to go past that if you want to win a competition going past the k points just kind of proven, you're able to break physics, right? You're, you're kind of you're good enough athlete that you're able to just go past that point in fly and fly past that, that flat portion of it of the hill.

Nick VinZant 16:22

So what you're landing on flat ground Are you landing on the slower,

Casey Larson 16:25

it's such a gradual decline in terms of the rate, the radius is so long and so big on any Hill, that even if you go past the point where it starts to flatten out, you're still landing on pretty steep ground.

Nick VinZant 16:36

Oh, I see what you're saying. Right. So like there's the steep part, there's the k point and then there's the kind of steep part basically. Okay, that makes sense to me. Have you ever backed off of one

Casey Larson 16:46

you really can't right so you're in these when you let go this bar right when you hop on a ski jump and getting get ready to go. If you let go of the bar and you get your interim position, you're going off that ski jump whether you like it or not. And you just have the ritual that you trust that you can never second guess right you check your bindings you check your equipment, you check your goggles to get on the bar, you can do it again. And then once you let go you got to be ready to handle whatever happens so if the winds not right, you know, you trust your coach with your life pretty much is how it works. So if your coach lives a you know that everything say everything's gonna be totally fine. I just got to do my job.

Nick VinZant 17:25

Well, when you go though, okay, so we talked to a freestyle Cliff jumper who said that, like, look, every time I go, I'm still scared. Are you still scared every time you do it? Or it's just like, it's Tuesday, man, I've done this 1000s of times.

Casey Larson 17:38

I don't think I don't think I'd still do it if I wasn't still scared. I think the adrenaline and just that little pickup is what keeps you honest and what keeps you focused. So for me, I've never been a daredevil I've never like even when I was a kid and moved up to a bigger hill I took me so long ago to actually like, go and actually deal with it. I was never as fearless little kid.

Nina Lussi 17:57

It's not super like it's not like every jump. I'm like, oh my god, what am I doing? But it is still like every once in a while you will get up there and you're like, either if it's windy or new hill or some something's weird. You're like, oh, this is no, this is serious. Like, I need to like, know what I'm doing like, this isn't a joke.

Nick VinZant 18:22

Okay, ask you this question. Have you ever thought of flapping your arms to potentially go far farther during the ski jump?

Casey Larson 18:33

Oh, man, when people try there's you know, there's like nervous twitches athletes have but I'll throw my teammate under the bus coming back now. Um, if you look at some videos of him up, he flaps his arms pretty bad. But it doesn't add anything. I think it's just a, I think I think it's just a twitch. I don't really know why people end up moving their hands or moving their arms a little bit more than others. But I usually pray stay pretty stuck in the air and don't move too much. But But hey, you know, maybe I'll try it. I don't know.

Nina Lussi 19:03

I appreciate I definitely appreciate the advice insight. I have, like, this was last week, and I was trying to find I was training. So I'm like trying to get ready for the Olympic season. And I'm trying to find exactly how far away from my body my arms are. So like, I was having them probably like three inches away from my side so that I could maximize the surface area. Because that was like enough like the dry like it wouldn't the air wouldn't kind of come between my arm and my body. So just kind of like get a little bit bigger. But I wasn't feeling as much as I wanted to. So then, while I was flying, I was like moving my arms in and out, like looking for the perfect surface and my coach was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I just wanted to like, maximize what I could do and he was like, okay, all right.

Nick VinZant 20:00

Okay. So they kind of sounds like the answer is yes.

Nina Lussi 20:09

We want yeah, you want to know exactly where to, to be in to keep it in that position. So you can kind of,

Nick VinZant 20:16

can you make it? Can you? Can this be a full time living?

Casey Larson 20:20

Yeah, it isn't at this point. Definitely not. I mean, even as an Olympic athlete, you know, obviously trying to make another one, it's certainly not a full time living, it's not something I can, you know, maintain for another four or five years without getting a lot better at the sport. But if you're top, I'd say Top 10 Top 20. Um, if you're on the World Cup circuit consistently, and you're consistently getting like top 30 results, you're able to do okay, you're able to get the sponsors that like watching it. It's the biggest winter sport in Europe. I mean, viewership wise.

Nick VinZant 20:52

So how big is it overseas?

Casey Larson 20:54

Mass, I'd say it's, we fight with, there's so many disciplines inside of ski racing. And there's only one discipline in ski jumping. So that's kind of how we cheat the viewership numbers. If that makes sense. We fill up stadiums pretty pretty much on the regular before COVID with 40,000 people.

Nick VinZant 21:10

Well, how come that hasn't like, Well, why not in the US, right? Like, how come that hasn't hit here?

Casey Larson 21:15

I don't know. I really don't know when you know, as it's definitely better in person, right? Better than it could ever be on TV. Ski jumping in person is pretty pretty darn cool. You get you don't get a little bit more respect for just how absolutely insane it is and how far these athletes are going.

Nick VinZant 21:30

would if I was to show up to like an event. Would I be shocked at how steep and big things are? Or what I look at and be like, ah, that's not as that's not as steep as I thought it was seeing it on TV.

Casey Larson 21:43

I think you'd be more impressed in person. Honestly, I think I think a TV does it some justice, but not enough justice.

Nina Lussi 21:50

I think the best way to see ski jumping is to get as close to the action as possible. Live, of course. So if you one cool thing is if you're obviously not everybody can do this. But if you stand under the takeoff, and you can hear the rush of the skier coming down. And then you can like, see them shoot right over your head and kind of start flying. And where you can see this you can feel the speed and then also when you're in the air, it makes this cool like I don't know, it's a really special sound because you are almost like an airplane so you can hear the the air on on this gear. But on TV, you can't really like that. Those sensations don't really come through.

Nick VinZant 22:36

Who's kind of that like who's the Michael Jordan of ski jumping.

Nina Lussi 22:41

I mean, this girl, Sara Takanashi, the Japanese girl has been like really good for a really long time. There was also a Japanese guy named Noriaki kosai, who was one of the oldest jumpers, and he actually, like transitioned through every different ski jumping style. So he actually used to jump in old style where your skis are like straight. And then he did the V and like has gone to, I don't know, five or six Olympics. Wow, like still competitive got a medal in? Yeah. But that's very rare and like you have to have a body that can sustain that.

Nick VinZant 23:23

Is there is there a country that like oh, here comes the Bulgarians or whatever. Is there a country that dominates?

Casey Larson 23:31

Yeah, the power of the power? The power countries are definitely Norway. Poland, Austria, Germany. Finland is up there. Scandinavian countries are big.

Nick VinZant 23:45

Oh, this is the last one best ski jumping seen in a movie or TV show.

Nina Lussi 23:50

There was like the Eddie the Eagle movie that came out a few years ago. That wasn't like super cool ski jumping. You know what's cool is like, I was training in Slovenia before and two of the guys I was training with they were like stunt double. So they had to learn how to like jump bad to be in the movie. And they like went to the premiere and stuff. So that was cool. So they liked it. But

Nick VinZant 24:21

how do you jump bad? And still, like not get seriously injured?

Nina Lussi 24:29

Yeah, that's the thing is it's like totally about the body awareness and being able to control exactly what you're doing. And so

Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker

From terraforming the Earth for life to protecting against climate change, Fungi have played a critical role in our past, our present and our future. Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker joins us to talk fungi, the best mushrooms for your health, microbiology, Mycelium technology and magic mushrooms. Then, we countdown the Top 5 underrated candies.

Dr. Gordon Walker: 01:35ish

Pointless: 37:48

Top 5: 49:51ish

https://www.youtube.com/fascinatedbyfungi (Dr. Walker YouTube - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://www.instagram.com/fascinatedbyfungi/ (Dr. Walker Instagram - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://www.tiktok.com/@fascinatedbyfungi (Dr. Walker TikTok - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://twitter.com/fascin8dbyfungi (Dr. Walker Twitter - Fascinated By Fungi)

https://www.patreon.com/fascinatedbyfungi (Dr. Walker Patreon - Fascinated By Fungi)

Interview with Fungi Researcher Dr. Gordon Walker

Nick VinZant 0:12

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, fascinating fungi, and underrated candy.

Dr. Gordon Walker 0:22

So they're cryptic. They're absolutely everywhere. You have fungi on every surface of everything in your house. We have a beginning and an end in many ways. Fungi don't mycelium lives in, plurality incarnate. It is constantly moving, growing in all different directions. There's no central bank brain, there's no central decision making center. And so like life as we know it on this planet, was essentially terraforming by plants and fungi. So they don't just take over the world. They are the world.

Nick VinZant 0:52

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, leave a review, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is fascinated by fungi. And I have to admit, going into this. I knew fungi were important, right? Like anybody else. I could look at a mushroom and say, I don't really know what that thing is doing. But it has to be doing something important. I never realized how fascinating and how important fungi are in our past, in our present, and for our future. Our first guest is fungi expert, Dr. Gordon Walker. So why are fungi important?

Dr. Gordon Walker 1:38

Fungi are incredibly important. And they're at everywhere on our planet, every interface of life. And it's something that people don't think about because they're generally microscopic, you often can't see them. And even if they're not microscopic, if it's mycelium, it's hidden down in soil, and inside of wood. So they're cryptic, they're absolutely everywhere. They're omnipresent. You have fungi on every surface of everything in your house. And yet you don't see them. And you don't notice them until they create the fruiting bodies, their reproductive structures, generally. So that's the little molds you would see on food, or it's the mushrooms you'd see out in your lawn. Or maybe it's like, you know, some other weird growth, you'd see somewhere and be like, what is that, and yet fungi are all around us constantly. And we have really no idea what they're doing, at least from like a layperson point of view. In essence, what fungi do and why they are so important, is they're specialists at recycling carbon. So in our ecosystems, there's a lot of leftover plant matter, especially. And if that would build up, you would just have like huge deposits of compacted plant matter, that would never really turn into soil. And so fungi have evolved a suite of really powerful enzymes to help break down complex polysaccharide linkages and carbon into smaller units, which then other microbes can go ahead and eat. So they are sort of a keystone species in the first step towards creating soils. And that's part of why they're so important, especially in terrestrial ecosystems. The thing

Nick VinZant 3:07

that I always wonder is right, I see a mushroom on the forest. Like, what is that thing? I guess? Like, I know, it's a mushroom, but what what is it?

Dr. Gordon Walker 3:17

So what is it? I mean, I get this question a lot. And it's, it's a great question, because it's still something that people misunderstand. You know, people think that oh, mushrooms are plants, and they're all these other things like No, mushrooms are fungi. Mushrooms very specifically, are the reproductive structures of the mycelium or the the body of the fungus that is usually below that part of that cryptic hidden part I was talking about. And the mushroom is the visible reproductive organ of that mycelium. So it's like the fruit or a flower. And it's analogous in that it is producing sexual spores to help disperse the range of that mushroom and sort of see the next generation of mycelium and continue the fungus cycle in the soil.

Nick VinZant 4:00

Are they so the bigger part of it then is below ground?

Dr. Gordon Walker 4:04

Yeah, I mean, it's tough to say because you can't ever really see how big the Mycelium is, you know, like the the world's biggest organism is this giant patch of Armillaria or honey mushroom mycelium that's out in Oregon. I'm going to go visit in a couple of months. And it's a it's I don't know, something like 10 miles or more like it's an enormous organism. It's all contiguous. But it's like a couple centimeters deep in the soil. So it's absolutely massive, but it's not like it doesn't have that much biomass. The biggest heaviest organism on the world is this giant stand of aspen trees. That probably also has mycorrhiza with it, but like this giant chunk of honey fungus is just the mycelium in the soil. It's not the mushrooms themselves, right? So the mushrooms themselves are just the reproductive organs of this huge patch of one giant piece of mycelium that spreads out you know, over like a giant National Park kind of thing. So

Nick VinZant 4:55

are they alive in the way that plants are alive or alive in the way that animals are? alive.

Dr. Gordon Walker 5:00

They're alive in a way that fungi are alive. It's a separate kingdom, right? So, so they're all eukaryotes. So we have in backing out towards the tree of life, right, we have archaea, which is sort of like weird extreme final things. We have bacteria, which are prokaryotes. And those are just tiny little single celled things. And then we have all of eukaryotes, which is stuff like amoebas. And protozoa is we have animals, we have plants, and we have fungi. So those are different kingdoms, the plant, animal and fungi. Fungi are really under their own special thing, because they don't move around like animals. But they also don't do photosynthesis like plants. Ultimately, they're a little bit closer to animals in the sense that they are catabolic. So they are breaking down organic matter to produce sugars. And then they breathe co2 and water the same way that we do. But that's kind of where the similarities end. Fungi use a polysaccharide called chitin, which is present in a lot of bugs and like arthropods, so they're like there's a little bit of a relationship there. But like, generally the way that fungi live is so different from the way that animals and plants live. Like plants have a defined structure, right? That grew up their stems, there's leaves, there's parts that do photosynthesis, there's there's roots, so they sort of define structures. Human beings have heads, fingers, toes, we are we have sort of a top and a bottom and we know where our constraints are. You know, we are we have a beginning and an end in many ways. Fungi don't mycelium lives in plurality incarnate. It is constantly moving, growing in all different directions. There's no central bank brain, there's no central decision making center, every single leading tip is like its own little brain. And somehow these 1000s of little tips growing through the soil are are all able to communicate and talk to each other at the same time and coordinate their behavior enough to then produce a mushroom when the rain comes. So it's a little mind blowing, but it's you know,

Nick VinZant 6:56

so then is an individual mushroom that I see pop poking out of the forest floor. That's not one organism that's is one one isn't a separate one or each one is.

Dr. Gordon Walker 7:08

So think of the mycelium below. There's a let's say there's a big patch under usually what we're talking about are called Ecto mycorrhizal fungi. So these are mushrooms that are associated with trees. So you can think of like think of a really big oak tree, and all around that oak tree, maybe under the drip line of where the sort of the leaves are, you'll find like a bunch of mushrooms in a big circle or something around that tree. So those mushrooms are all related. They're often mycelium that's connected to that tree. If you have another oak tree 50 feet away, you might have a completely different mixture of mushrooms coming up under that oak tree because that oak tree has a different set of associations. And the thing too is mycelium. isn't like I said it's plurality. And so you can have mycelium kind of mixed all mesh together. And so there's like a larger body of fungus where you have like a bunch of people that have kind of forgotten where the beginning and end and they're all down. They're like sharing nutrients vibing with a tree, and then they're producing mushrooms that are the mushrooms are producing their own distinct spores for that particular mycelium. But like everything underground is kind of messy, because they're all sort of linked. And there can be there can be competition, there can be mutualism, there can be all sorts of weird stuff going on.

Nick VinZant 8:22

Man, so they are they taken over the world. That's what I feel like, it's gonna happen. I feel like this is the next eventual thing is that they then take over the world,

Dr. Gordon Walker 8:30

I would say they already control the world. And I'd say that we just haven't realized it because like I said, they're kind of cryptic, they're kind of hidden. But like if we got rid of fungi, like life wouldn't exist as we know it. And the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize the importance of fungi is that plants as we know them, basically would not exist without fungi. Plants when they came to land as little tiny algae things, how do they colonize? How could How could algae colonize land? Algae needs to be in water, right? One of the first steps was for fungi and algae to team up and become symbiotic. Where the fungi would help them keep water in and provide structure and the algae would do the photosynthesis to make sugars. And that's basically what lichen is. And like him as like the one of the first land organisms, the fungus is able to produce little tiny threads that will creep down into the rock kind of intercalating between cracks in the rock. And then when it rains, those threads swell they crack the rock. And then you just created little shards of rock which over time become dust become soil. And so like life as we know it on this planet was essentially terraforming by plants and fungi. So they don't just take over the world. They are the world. How come

Nick VinZant 9:43

the best thing we figured out so far to do with them then is just eat them.

Dr. Gordon Walker 9:48

We do a lot more than just eat them. I think the promise of eating them is something that like attracts most people because that's your first experience with most mushrooms as many people eat a mushroom they you know Some people like them, some people don't like them like, I got lucky I found a puffball at age five and my mom was like, that's a mushroom, we can eat that and I took it home was like what is the savory marshmallow it's incredible. And that left a big impression on me like wow, that was a cool mushroom. I want to try more. And and so food definitely led me into trying more mushrooms. In terms of like applications for mushrooms, there's there's lots of them we're looking at are sort of poised on the edge of what people are calling a Miko Cultural Revolution. And the idea is essentially that we can start using fungi for a lot more than just food. They are sustainable protein. They can be building materials. You can use mycelium to make shipping packing materials that are biodegradable, that are sustainable, you can use it to make insulation for houses. I've seen people make like canoes and coffins and all sorts of like kitschy things out of it. There's several companies right now that are working on textiles, fabrics, sort of mushroom leather type products, where they want to put them on leather coats and couches and all this stuff. There's tremendous potential in like the space of medicine, therapeutics, because there's all sorts of novel antibiotics. Cytotoxic like cancer drugs, there's like a huge class of molecules that are being explored, explored within fungi, as potential, you know, cures for various diseases. I mean, like statins that people use to control blood pressure, those came from mushrooms, there's all these like lectins and things involved in immune immunity and immune response. So there's a tremendous like, potential for these in the field of health. And there's also mental health and using philosophy to like help people overcome trauma and, and things like that in their lives. So there's a lot more than just eating them.

Nick VinZant 11:34

If to kind of crystallize it for me, on a scale of one to 10, one being like, we don't even know what this thing sticking out of the ground is 10. We've got this figured out any question anyone can imagine we have the answer to it. And then where would you say we are in our knowledge of them? Right now?

Dr. Gordon Walker 11:53

I don't know if I gave you the most authoritative answer on this. But I would say we're somewhere around like five or six. Like we know a lot. I think in the in the overall estimation, we know about 14,000 species of mushrooms right now. It's estimated that there's about 40,000 species of mushrooms. And then in the world of fungi, in general, it's estimated that there's somewhere between like 2.3 and 3.8 million species of fungi out there that like we haven't necessarily gotten a handle on. Because there's, there's mushrooms. And then there's also the yeast and the lichens, and the filamentous. fungi, and there's just in mold. There's like such a vast variety of the different kinds of fungi and most of them are microscopic, so you would never see them as a mushroom necessarily. Mushrooms are clearly sort of like the vanguard of the of the fungal world because they produce these like beautiful fruiting bodies, and they're very, like engaging and you can eat them, you can learn all the stuff about them, it's harder to get interested in something that's like a microscopic mole that you can never really see, you know, but those things can be just as important because they can cause rusts cause like massive amounts of damage in agriculture and caused like huge crop losses all over the world. At the same time, like we spray all these fungicides in our fields to keep fungus away, without realizing that there's this this fungus called weed like Kobe or ustilago made us corn Smite, it's a it's a thing that infects corn kernels. And in America, we think it's nasty. It turns these corn into like sort of big, fleshy, gray looking gall things. And in Mexico, they love it. It's a delicacy. And here in America, we spend fungicides all over the place to get rid of it. And it's like, a fungus is actually making corn more nutritious. It's upping the protein content. It's making it taste better. And yet, like it's this this weird dichotomy of how like, we love to hate fungus, and especially in agriculture and other cultural practices, like people like do all they can to keep it away with sort of forgetting that, you know, this might actually be of benefit to us if we thought about how to better control it and use it as an ally.

Nick VinZant 13:53

So I guess it's just because I kind of think about about it as being like, not clean.

Dr. Gordon Walker 13:58

Yeah, I mean, but nothing is like, quite frankly, like if you have something clean, if you were if you took a baby and brought them up in a clean place, that would be the sickest kid in the world. They would every single allergy, every single like sensitivity. There is something to be said for like letting kids crawl around the dirt. And like, you know, you want to generate an immune response. And like it helps if you get exposure to you know, I frequently when I'm feeling kind of sick, I'll be like, I'm going to go mushroom hunting just because I like that's my happy space. And I'll be like, snotty and feeling awful when I get out there. And then after a couple hours of digging around the soil and smelling mushrooms and touching stuff and being covered in dirt, you'd think I'd feel worse, actually feel better. I come home and I'm like, my stuffy nose is gone. I feel great. My immune system went through the roof.

Nick VinZant 14:41

Okay, so I don't think there's mushrooms living inside of us necessarily, but there are fungi and that kind of stuff that are in us, right.

Dr. Gordon Walker 14:48

There are some kinds of yeast and things. Yeah, we have a fair number of yeast and fungi that live on our skin. And for the most part, they're they're not harmful. We do know about like fungal infections. Everyone's familiar with like a yeast infection that women have to deal with. And like there's various topical skin infections, ringworm and different things you can get on your skin. Most of those are caused not by some awful fungus that's invading you. It's simply something that was there already. And like the balance of your microbial ecosystem got thrown off because there's a change in pH or maybe we're too sweaty for too long, or what you know, there's some growth of bacteria or something that caused a shift and then the fungus fungi are ultimately opportunists. So, mushrooms, and molds and all these things will do what they do best in their environment. But if their environment drastically changes, they're going to do what's best for them. They're not going to keep doing what you want them to do. They're going to keep doing what they want to do. And so that's like coming from the world of winemaking. That's something you see all the time, because that's dependent on a fungus yeast Saccharomyces servicio, where you have this like, giant vat of sugar, and you put the yeast and you want them turn it all the alcohol. The yeast, though, are smart, they're like, you know, we realize if we turn all of the sugar and alcohol, we're going to die. So sometimes the conditions are a little weird, the yeast will shift and say, Yeah, we're not going to finish that last little bit of alcohol, we're going to like, concentrate on trying to survive for like the next round. And winemakers don't like that winemakers like No, no, we want you to finish all of that we want you to blow through, then not leave a bunch of sugar in our wine, because then it's open for spoilage kind of thing. So, again, yeah, yeast are honest, we have it part of our microbiome, but it's all about opportunity and the balance of the ecosystem. So

Nick VinZant 16:26

do they seem to have any kind of an intelligence,

Dr. Gordon Walker 16:29

there's definitely intelligence, it's what they call network intelligence. So it's not intelligence in the way that we think about it, that we have a central brain. But like I said, they have all those little hyphal tips that are growing in the soil, and somehow they're able to all coordinate. So you know, imagine like some sort of like massive transit system that is like self regulating, and like, you know, imagine, you know, the New York subway system, but somehow all the trains know when and where to go kind of on their own. That's an example of like network intelligence. And that's kind of what fungi and slime molds exhibit. So you've heard of slime molds. They're, they're not fungi, technically, they're other little organisms that, you know, you've seen time lapse of them growing through mazes and stuff, they can like navigate mazes and find food and avoid light. They have all these sort of like, examples of intelligence. But they still you know, they can do simple problems, like solve a puzzle and do these various things. But they don't have they don't have a brain. Their effects on molds are one giant cell slime molds, mycelium are different organisms that behave in similar manners. And they both exhibit this this network intelligence and ability to coordinate decisions across you know, distances, without like neuron potentials, or anything else that we understand as thought.

Nick VinZant 17:38

So is that kind of the difference between like actively thinking versus responding to just external stimuli? The fungi don't get together and be like, hey, you know what, there's this property down there. We go down there, there's some great soil for us. Well, I just think they can

Dr. Gordon Walker 17:53

sense because they can be like, Oh, we can tell that there's some good stuff for us to eat down there. So they might intentionally move down there because they're, that's closer chemotaxis they're moving towards something that they want. So they can sense that. Are they making like a conscious decision? Maybe not. I like to think of it as like, you know, you see one of those like producer music boards from like, a studio, and there's all the little like levels and dials and stuff like that. Yeah, I think for me, that's kind of how I think about it's like, there's some level of like, messing with the dials, where they're like, Okay, we've hit enough, you know, the levels are up, we're gonna go, we're gonna go for it. Right? If they have enough of the stimuli that says, do this thing or move away from this thing, they'll start doing that in an active way you can even like, there's examples of where if you put like a fungi on a plate, and you give it a food source, it'll move towards the food source. And because what it does is mycelium grows in all directions equally until it finds food and then it concentrates all its resources on the food. Right? So it's growing all equally until it finds something and then it puts everything into that that food source because it's like there's food there. If you then pick up the food source, clean away the mycelium and put the food source back. Mycelium will remember where the food source was and grow towards it again. So like it has memory, even though it doesn't have a brain, which I think is really cool. Yeah, I'm

Nick VinZant 19:08

going back to they're taking over the world man.

Dr. Gordon Walker 19:12

They already took over the world. We live in their world. It's we just don't see them.

Nick VinZant 19:17

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Sure shoot. Best fungi slash mushroom.

Dr. Gordon Walker 19:24

It's a tough one because I have to qualify it like I have so many favorites and it shifts constantly based a little bit on season. I definitely do have a few favorites. morels are excellent. There's this thing called butter blades that are incredible. I get one here in Napa called emanate of Llosa that I absolutely love. Those are some of my favorite edibles. There's also really cool mushrooms I just like take photos of there's things called high nelum which are a little tough, bitter sort of polypore to fungi but they have these droplets of what's called quotation or liquid on them. You might have seen like the bleeding tooth fungi, it just looks absolutely unreal and crazy. and really cool. So those are some of my favorites. And I know there's there's so many things out there that can just be utterly mind blowing because you come across them. You don't even recognize them as a mushroom. And then you find out later like, Oh, that was fungus like, whoa. So

Nick VinZant 20:12

most overrated like, ah, somebody's talking about portabello. Again, everybody, so great, but it's a jerk or something like that.

Dr. Gordon Walker 20:22

I mean, just just as a side note, I like Agaricus bisporus is what portabello cremini and but mushrooms are all the same species of mushroom. They're just grown in slightly different ways or slightly different strain of the same thing. I think like the fact that everybody thinks that's what mushrooms are, that makes them a little overrated because it's like, there's like, hundreds of delicious mushrooms. There's hundreds of bad mushroom soup, there's like, you know, something like 40,000 mushrooms and only like a couple 100 on each end are gonna be edible or poisonous. And everything else in between is just a mushroom. I'd say maybe overrated mushroom, like, people absolutely love Shawn trails, and they're good. But they're not like, they're not the best. You know, I think people tend to hold things in certain regard because they are familiar with them. Even porcine people really, really like this sort of big kimberlites and porcini. But some of my favorite mushrooms are ones that people aren't necessarily aware of. Because they're not as highly regarded. They're not as highly touted. So I think certain things kind of get over represented. emanate a muscaria is another one that like, I think people get so stoked on it, because it's that classic red little white dots on it. It's poisonous, but it's not deadly toxic. And so there's just a lot of like misconceptions out there around certain mushrooms.

Nick VinZant 21:39

Dem. Which one do you think of like you look at and you say, Oh, that one has a lot of potential?

Dr. Gordon Walker 21:45

I mean, are you talking like for biotechnology, you're talking for food, you're talking for environmental restoration. But well, the potential all of the

Nick VinZant 21:52

above I guess, and the asking really hard like, okay, however you want to define potential?

Dr. Gordon Walker 21:58

Sure. So I think right now, some of the most interesting mushrooms are what are called White rot fungi. So those are mushrooms that have evolved to digest wood. And there's several levels of mushrooms that digest wood, there's white rot, brown rot and then like composters. So this is like first secondary and tertiary SAP probes. White rot fungi are things that can break down lignin, which is a really complex polymer in wood, that crosslinks cellulose and gives it wood its structure, its its density. And why rot fungi have these very advanced enzymes to break down lignin because it's a super complex molecule. And so we've been harnessing the power of white rot fungi, and this is stuff like oyster mushrooms, Ganoderma, reishi, mushrooms, Lion's Mane, these kinds of things, to mine enzymes to do making biofuels to do other like industrial processes. We've also been looking at them to do like bio remediation of like carbon compounds. So like, certain people out there have shown that in a lab, you can get like an oyster mushrooms, eat like cigarette butts, or potentially eat hydrocarbons and oil pollution, it's really difficult to actually translate that kind of practice into a wild situation, because they've tried to like take oyster mushrooms and put them on an oil spill. They don't do what you want them to do, because oyster mushrooms do what they want to do, not what you want them to do. But I do think there's tremendous potential, as you said, to capture the power and chemistry of some of these white rot fungi and use them as allies and fighting climate change and trying to sort of make sense of the mess we've made of the world.

Nick VinZant 23:35

follow this up with a lighthearted one. Do you consider Toad from Mario to be a mushroom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 23:42

Yeah, I think he's pretty clearly an avenue to muscaria. You know, he's a little guy. So

Nick VinZant 23:47

is he the most famous mushroom based character?

Dr. Gordon Walker 23:51

Oh, he might be you know, I mean, the Mario Mushroom is definitely like the one that everybody knows. And that's part of why ama muscaria is so well. You know, recognized around the world.

Nick VinZant 24:01

I guess I can't think of any other famous mushrooms.

Dr. Gordon Walker 24:04

There's there's plenty in like animaIs. And like, I'm amazed once you start recognizing mushrooms, you start noticing them everywhere, because it's like, I've talked to people who are like their hikers, professional hikers or something like that. And they've gone like the whole Pacific Crest Trail and stuff like that. Like do you see any mushrooms? They're like, No, didn't notice any ever. And then you're like, well here, look at my Instagram. Look at these pictures of mushrooms. And the next thing I know for like, weeks on end, people are just DMing me pictures of mushrooms every day. And I'm like, Yeah, I know. I told you they're everywhere. You just like have to key into it. And I feel like it's kind of the same thing with media you you've watched shows and movies and things where there's mushrooms in them and not realize it was a mushroom until you're like oh my gosh, that's a mushroom.

Nick VinZant 24:41

Best place to find them

Dr. Gordon Walker 24:44

in the woods, after rain. You know the mushrooms do grow everywhere. You can find them in the desert. You can find them in the Arctic you can find them pretty much anywhere you can imagine. But you there's a few basic things that really help if you have plants around so they have carbon to eat. and you have lots of water you're going to need rain or at least some snow, melt, moisture, humidity etc. to to get the mushrooms to grow because that is the biggest trigger right is the Mycelium is down in the soil. If it doesn't have any water, it's not going to swell. If the water goes down and mycelium swells up, that's when it says okay, now is an appropriate time to previous to the fruiting body. And that's because mushrooms need moisture to develop. And the spores when they come out, need moisture to kind of germinate nucleate and go down into the soil and start growing again to continue the mycorrhizal network.

Nick VinZant 25:33

Does that always happen super fast like I you know, 1000 Boom, there they are, or is it just you don't notice it until they're done.

Dr. Gordon Walker 25:41

So there's some mushrooms that like come up and disappear within like 24 hours, there's this class of mushrooms called Ink caps, which are like generally little tiny things will grow in which ships there's some bigger ones too. But they'll come up and essentially melt. They don't they don't even disperse their scores by when they just like they come up in their cap turns to black goo and it melts and drops all over the ground. And that can happen in like 24 or 48 hours. That's that's a really fast cycle. A lot of mushrooms will be they'll come up and kind of exist for about a week or two. And then they'll get moldy and rotting and full of bugs and to kind of just like disappear into the forest floor. And then there's stuff like poly pores that can you know, persist for an entire year, maybe five years, you know, there's this one called the Gary con, which can live for like 80 to 100 years on a tree. It's parasitic on the tree, but very, very weakly so. So it's like year after year, it's building layers on layers on layers, which is one of the things you can go to the forest and you'll see lots of stuff that are like conks on trees, and more often on if they're on the side of trails, some will come by and knock it off. And that always upsets me because I'm like, you know, that comp could live for another like 20 years. But somebody just thought to be clever to like whack it off.

Nick VinZant 26:46

Like I didn't know they had such a long lifespan.

Dr. Gordon Walker 26:49

Some of them. Yeah, I mean, that's that's so he's talking about the medical potential for fungi along those poly pores because they're so long lives are full of antibiotics, of cytotoxic compounds that can fight cancers, they have really complex like polysaccharide linkages that can help stimulate our immune system. And that's because those things are built to last right? They're mushrooms that have evolved to not get molded over eaten by bugs, they're going to exist for like 2030 4050 years. So they're full of stuff that's really good at keeping the mushroom whole, and we can take those compounds and use them as medicines and therapeutics.

Nick VinZant 27:25

How can I tell if they're poisonous? That's what I've always wanted to like pick one up.

Dr. Gordon Walker 27:32

Okay, so So behind me, I have two posters, can you tell which ones poisonous?

Nick VinZant 27:36

The one on the bottom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 27:40

The one on top, actually, but that's kind of my point is I get this question. A lot of people say, hey, how do you tell what's poisonous? What's not? And I say you don't? Everyone just wants a rule of thumb. And for fungi, there is no such thing. And I know that's a disappointing answer, but try rephrasing it as this. The way you learn what's edible, and what's toxic is by learning one mushroom at a time. And the way I like to think about this is it's like playing an RPG. When you start an RPG, you have one spell you have fireball and all you can do is spam fireball, you know, you kill the zombie spam fireball, but eventually you level up because you're other killing zombies you gain experience. And then suddenly, wow, I just learned lightning now you can cast fireball and lightning. And then as your other casting fireball and lightning you like pick up another spell. And so mushroom hunting is very much the same thing. You got to learn like one good edible mushroom to start. And there's a few really easy ones you can learn something like chicken the woods is this big orangey yellow poly core, it grows on trees. If you find a big orange ELA Polyvore growing on a tree, it's the only thing that looks like that it's going to be a tip or a certificate the woods. If you learn that, then maybe you can learn a Shawn Trail, which is a little bit more complicated. It does have a few look alikes, but you can kind of like, as you get along in your mushroom journey, you learn more and more spells more and more mushrooms. And you also as you're learning the edible ones, you start to learn the toxic ones. And that's how you kind of start to build this repertoire.

Nick VinZant 28:59

Where do you think this goes? Like? What do you think the future holds?

Dr. Gordon Walker 29:02

I think the future is hopefully bright for our partnership with fungi. I think there's a lot of challenges that we have to face with what's happened with our climate. And I think like the human influence on this planet is being felt more and more and it's like the people who are still saying that the climate change hasn't occurred are they're going to become in the minority. Because as the world fundamentally changes as our food system changes, the weather changes, we're going to have to adapt, or we're going to die as a species and I think fungi because they were some of the original terraforming of this planet are going to be one of the main pillars of how we actually try to recapitulate ecosystems, we have to go to Superfund sites and reforest them we have to sink massive amounts of carbon to stop our planet from becoming too hot to be habitable, basically, and fungi are a huge part of how we're gonna be able to buffer the environment. We're gonna be able to like use them to help reseed plants we're going to be producing sustainable foods you know, there's there's too much animal agriculture. You're going on right now I'm I'm an omnivore. I don't think that we should all go vegan. But I do think it would help if everybody in the country could cut their meat consumption in half, and supplement that with mushrooms. I think the other big thing we'd get out of that wouldn't be just like a positive boon for the climate, we'd see a huge improvement in health too, because fungi have a massive amount of dietary fiber in them. And that's the thing people don't realize how little fiber they're getting in their diet. And like when I say fiber, I don't mean go and eat a box of Wheaties and like have a very uncomfortable BM like I'm talking about like fiber that we need to live and feel full feel satiated, to stock good bacteria in our guts. And I think fungi are absolutely essential source of nutrients that had been largely ignored because people kind of just look at them like the cheap Agaricus by sports a little button mushrooms you buy in a store are not appealing to enough people who have them want to eat them every meal. And so like what I'd love to see is a much larger selection of edible fungi become more available become you know, easier to access in terms of price and availability. And and really see people eat more mushrooms because I think health would improve. And I think we could really help our environment by shifting some of our protein needs to to fumble bass stuff.

Nick VinZant 31:11

This isn't, you know, your area of specialization necessarily, but I think the question is an obvious one whenever we're talking about mushrooms. Right now, there seems to be a big push to kind of move into the was it the psychedelic ones? Do you do you see potential there? Is this kind of a fad?

Dr. Gordon Walker 31:29

I think it's a lot more than a fad. I mean, I think the sad thing is that like we were there in the 70s. And then it was like Nixon for very racist reasons decided to shut down, you know, start a war on drugs that was like, essentially just an excuse to put people in prison. Certainly, if you look at the history of it. Right now, what we're seeing is, you know, stuff like Michael Pollan's book, The Johns Hopkins studies are some really major momentum moving towards showing the value and efficacy of psilocybin and psychedelics in general towards mental health. We certainly have a mental health crisis in this country, you know, the number of people who had issues and can't find proper help, you know, if you've tried to look for a therapist or some like that, it's very difficult and most people can't afford it, don't have the time don't have the access, etc. I don't think psychedelics are a silver bullet, I think that there's a little bit too much kind of projected onto them that they can somehow solve all your problems you still need to go through like the work and the effort of actually tackling your problems. And I think taking psychedelics in a therapeutic setting is going to be where they're going to be most effective, rather than people just kind of like going off on like, Vision quests in the desert kind of thing that because that can be dangerous, and like certainly, like psychedelics are very powerful and they can cause like a mental break, they can they could make you very unwell. Although they are generally very safe drugs compared to like other drugs out there, you can't really OD on one, but you can have a mental psychotic break as a result of taking them in inappropriate setting, or inappropriate dosage or you know, without proper support kind of thing. So I think there is massive potential for it. And I'm really excited to see like Oregon passes 109 measure, so they're gonna actually there's not in place yet. But within like the next two years, they have to have a system for there to be assisted psychedelic therapy appointments happening in Oregon. And there's a lot of places that are decriminalizing. So like, Oakland and Berkeley have done it, Denver's done it and arbour Santa Cruz, there's a number of cities and municipalities and even counties around the country that have started decriminalizing psychedelics, and specifically psilocybin to because it has a lot of potential to help people. And from what we've seen, it has very little downside, right? If you can cure someone's alcoholism in one or two sessions, that's a lot better for society than letting that person continue to like, you know, relapse in and out of stuff until they eventually get in a car accident, kill somebody, you know, so there's, there's real potential,

Nick VinZant 33:51

staying kind of in that similar area, but also more entertainment, the broader topic of it, do a lot of mushrooms have that chemical or genetic makeup or whatever that is that or is that unique to that specific kind of mushroom?

Dr. Gordon Walker 34:06

It's not unique. So it's, I mean, psilocybin is just an alkaloid. And there's a lot of different like mushrooms contain a lot of alkaloids and plants due to alkaloids are compounds that some of them are bitter and poisonous, and some of them are trippy. Some of them are just, you know, whatever they are. Psilocybin is mostly present in philosophy mushrooms, which is the the genre of mushrooms, there's a bunch of different species of philosophy and they grow all over the place. The most common one is one called Philosophy cubensis. That's what people are generally growing in, you know, things as as magic mushrooms. The native range of those is like Florida, Cuba, sort of the south east, they like really tropical warm regions. And so if you see philosophy elsewhere, it's probably a different species, the majority of philosophy or little wood decay fungi that are growing in like witchy pet so like all around the Bay Area, we get philosophy growing, but it's outside of like a Bank of America or like a apartment complex or something like that. It's like well watered woodchip beds where they occur, which is hilarious to me because I'm like, the legality of those things is a very weird gray area because you can't make a mushroom you can't make a plant that exists in nature illegal, it's it's there. It's only illegal if we go pick it with the intention of consuming it as a drug, if you picked it without knowing what it was, if you're like a landscaping guy, and you're like, oh, I want to get rid of all these mushrooms. That's not illegal. It's only illegal once you pick it with the intention. And that's the weird, legal gray area, right? Because if you're out hunting around a Bank of America and a cops like what are you doing? You're like, I don't know, I'm, I don't know what I'm doing. It's not illegal. But if you're like, I know what I'm doing, then it's illegal. Right? There are there are other genre of mushrooms that contain psilocybin, there's some pinellia species, there's some gianopolous species, there's actually a fair number of mushrooms that contain very, very, very small amounts of psilocybin. But usually psilocybin is peat, not heat stable. So if you cook a mushroom, you've cooked, you know, this is a good reason do you want to cook most emotion because you want to cook the toxins out? More often than not, there's bad stuff that could hurt you, if you you know, are eating a mushroom raw, so it's a really good idea to cook all your mushrooms. So lots of it would be an exception, because you actually want the psilocybin intentionally but it could also be quite upsetting if you were to eat something, not knowing that there's psilocybin and that would not that would be you know, getting that's where the mental break comes in. Because you think you're just having dinner. Next thing, you know, you're tripping.

Nick VinZant 36:20

Um, that's all the questions I got, man. Is there anything you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you? Oh, geez.

Dr. Gordon Walker 36:25

Well, I do social media on Instagram and YouTube and tick tock, and I think my main goal is to present visually engaging mushroom content that stirs up people's emotions. And I do some I don't know, if you've seen what I do. I know you talked to some risque people, but I have some sort of risque mushroom videos as well. I even have an only fun guy. And I think you know where to find that it is a it's only fun guy. But I have I put some of my more risky things on there. I realized that like me, making videos of talking about mushrooms, takes a lot of effort out of me and I had to like add them, put them together and stuff like good on camera and make a video work. Or sometimes I find a jelly fungus. And I can kind of just squish my finger around in it. And it makes a very intimate sounding noise and people like that or, or hate it. Either way, it causes an emotional response. And the whole point is to get them to stick around long enough to actually read the caption and hopefully learn some information. So I kind of have fun being a little subversive on social media and pushing people's buttons just a slight bit. So

Nick VinZant 37:26

I want to thank Dr. Walker so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him and learn even more about fungi, we have linked to him on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter and Instagram. And we have also included his information in the episode description. Okay, now, let's go ahead and bring in John Shaw. Do you feel like people generally listen to you?

Screenwriter Michael Jamin

From King of the Hill and Tacoma FD to Wilfred, Maron and Rules of Engagement, Screenwriter Michael Jamin has worked on some of Hollywood’s most recognizable sitcoms. We talk how to become a screenwriter, what it’s really like in a writer’s room and the future of television. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Scariest Things in Life.

Michael Jamin: 01:17ish

Pointless: 38:20ish

Top 5: 58:01ish

https://www.facebook.com/MichaelJaminWriter/ (Michael Jamin Facebook)

https://www.instagram.com/michaeljaminwriter/ (Michael Jamin Instagram)

https://www.tiktok.com/@michaeljaminwriter (Michael Jamin TikTok)

https://www.youtube.com/c/MichaelJaminWriter?sub_confirmation=1 (Michael Jamin YouTube)

https://twitter.com/MJaminWriter (Michael Jamin Twitter)

https://michaeljamin.com/course (Michael Jamin Website)

Interview with Screenwriter Michael Jamin

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, screenwriting, and this scariest things in life,

Michael Jamin 0:23

the first one is the hardest. You can't get an agent without a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot of a hustling that I started out as a production assistant. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. I think a better question to ask is, how do I write a script? That's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest writes the stuff you see on TV, everything from King of the Hill, and Tacoma FD to Marin, Wilfred, rules of engagement. He's been a writer on some of Hollywood's most recognizable sitcoms. This is screenwriter Michael Jackson. So obviously, once you get established in the industry, you kind of get jobs off your reputation. But how do you get that first job as a TV writer?

Michael Jamin 1:25

Yeah, that's the first one is the hardest, you can't get an agent got a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot about hustling that. I started as a production assistant, on on TV shows, you know, so I was basically a golfer, I would do whatever the boss wanted me to do. And after doing that for a couple of years, you know, I was I was able to say, Hey, can I pitch you an idea for a show? And they're like, you know, that's a that's a very tentative thing to do. Because, you know, you're, you're, that's not why you're hired. But I had really great bosses. And my partner had a writing partner, and we sold they were they were running a show called Lois and Clark, which was the Superman show that with Dean came in geriatric. And so that was they bought an episode of that. And that was my that was my first kind of big break.

Nick VinZant 2:08

When somebody is a TV writer, or a writer for any kind of thing. Are you writing the entire episode slash series? Are you like, Alright, I'm a TV writer. I wrote this one joke in a sitcom. Oh, no.

Michael Jamin 2:20

How does that work? Yeah, you want your you want to be a staff writer, you want to be on staff of a TV show, and a TV show might have like a sitcom I'd have anywhere between, on average, eight or 10. Writers. And you work as a group and you come up with ideas, you flesh them out into stories. And once it's all fleshed out, one writer, or a team of writers will go off and write that episode. So they'll be responsible for writing an outline, that a first draft, maybe a second draft, and the second draft will come back to the writers room. And all the writers work together to rewrite it to kind of quality control it so that you can ever tell one episode of television is written by one writer versus another right? It's kind of it's like, as a viewer watching at home when they go, Oh, this is just an average episode of TV that I might have my favorite show or whatever. And then there's the head writer, the head writer kind of is in charge of basically determine what gets into the script, but doesn't wander the show ideas but what gets made what doesn't. And he or she's is the boss. So that's the that's we call that the showrunner. So in TV, the showrunner is the boss, the show the director answers to the showrunner with the writers answer to the show, what are the actors? You know, I guess they want they want to get the show into the performance that the that the showrunner wants, so he or she is the boss. So it kind

Nick VinZant 3:29

of sounds a little bit like a group project. But somebody puts their name on it at the end?

Michael Jamin 3:34

Yeah, one writers is,

Nick VinZant 3:35

yeah, does most of the heavy lifting. Now is everybody in a room before COVID.

Michael Jamin 3:39

But you were literally in a writers room and you'd be on a sitcom, you'd be stuck in a room with these writers for at least 12 hours a day, sometimes much longer. These writers rooms, the ones I've worked in, are some of the funniest people you've ever met. I mean, these are the best of the best. And so, you know, you can be howling with laughter You spend your whole day just howling with laughter if you're doing your job, right. If you're not, there's a lot of silence, and a lot of when are we gonna get out of here? But yeah, it's collaborative. With that

Nick VinZant 4:07

kind of an effort though. Like how come some come some TV shows? They just they they don't work?

Michael Jamin 4:12

Yeah, right. Well, some of that's due to who the showrunner is who the boss is, some of it's because the network is gives a lot of notes, they have involvement. Sometimes you have an actor who's a big star who won't do something they want to do what they want to do. So there's a you know, it's it's like, everyone wants to say every everyone that I read a kind of umbrella guy named Charlie Hawk wrote a book about this in his analogy, he was a sitcom writer, his analogy was perfect. And he said, it's like, everyone wants to have a hit show. And it's like being in a lifeboat in a rowboat, and you're trying to get the same direction, but everywhere, everyone's wrong in a different direction. The actor is going this way. And the stars going into the showrunner this way and the writers in the network. And so it's like, if you can't get that boat moving in the same direction. It's a real problem. But every One has an ego and everyone, so and everyone has a different wants and needs. So

Nick VinZant 5:03

for you, when you sit down to write something like what's your process?

Michael Jamin 5:09

Well, I write, I write with a writing partner most of the time. So for television show, so we'll come up if it really depends if it's a show, it's on the air for to refer to, if we have a pilot that we're trying to sell, you know, that's a different thing. But it's usually coming up with, if we're on a staff of a TV show, the first thing you have to do is figure out, you have to break the story, you have to figure out what the story is about. And you go to a whiteboard. And you have Act One, act two, act three, and the writers will all pitch well, but what if it starts with what if? And then the showrunner will side of that idea has enough meat on its bones? And then if it does, you start fleshing it out a little bit. And that just coming up with the idea, and and seeing if there's enough meat on the bones that can easily take three to five days before before one word is written,

Nick VinZant 5:52

how then how long would it take to write an episode like, okay, from the start the conception of the idea to the very end, right? Not obviously, for the episode to air, but like this is written and done,

Michael Jamin 6:03

it can easily take from the from the beginning, when someone first has raised their hand and says, I have an idea to when you start shooting, activate, you actually start shooting the episode, it can easily be six weeks, then yeah, it's about quality control. It's about making sure every this story actually works. And that every line is as funny as it can be. And it's a lot of rehearsal, there's a lot of rewriting a 90% of writing is rewriting. So it's really about making sure it works.

Nick VinZant 6:29

Do you kind of when you write something, do you wait for inspiration? Or do you have a time like, alright, nine o'clock, sitting down, and something's coming out,

Michael Jamin 6:37

if you wait for inspiration, you will go hungry? Because I get paid, per episode produced. And a point if like, I can't sell the network, you know, inspiration didn't strike this week, let's just air color bars instead of the TV show. You know, that's not an acceptable answer. So there's no such thing as writer's block or waiting for inspiration. You have to, it's a job you have to you have to make your episode of television. So you fall back on your skills, and you fall back on on your training to get that episode done.

Nick VinZant 7:05

Is whenever you're talking about something creative, though, like that, is it something can you learn to do it? Or is it like you either got it? Or you don't? Right? Because I wouldn't think that people can learn to be funny. You're either funny, or you're not? Yeah, but

Michael Jamin 7:18

you can learn to be funnier. So you're right, you have to be funny, but you can learn to be funny, or you can hone your craft, you know, like, I'm definitely much better writer than it was 26 years ago when I broke in. But I remember, I was working on a show called King of the Hill, as a writer, you know, back in 2001. And the planes flew into the World Trade Center. And all those that tragedy was horrible, because people died was just horrific. And we didn't go to work that day, because everyone thought you into the pot, the country is coming apart. But the next day, we had to go to work. And we had to write comedy. And I assure you, none of the writers were in any mood to write comedy for that day, that week, or that month, or even subsequent like, it just felt wrong and disrespectful. So felt sacrilegious. So many people had died. And we knew that the world had changed, like no one wanted to write comedy. But we all had to because that's the job. And so, you know, you fall back on your training to make to write me a computer instead of someone would pitch a joke, and no one would laugh, but someone would say okay, yeah, that's funny, we could do that. It was very somber. Yeah, that's a good idea. We can do that. And now when you look back at those episodes that we shot, back, then I don't think you'd know, you would realize it was shot during a time of national grief and mourning. You just wouldn't.

Nick VinZant 8:28

Is it when you write something? Obviously, it's different. If you're talking about you know, you're in your second or third or fourth season or whatever. But are you generally do you know who you're writing it for? Like, I'm writing this for this actor?

Michael Jamin 8:41

Yeah, I mean it but if it's a pilot that we're selling, we have an actor in mind. But it that's really just to get a voice. So you're thinking, Okay, what's this is what the voice is what the character is, like, when it comes to casting more often than not far more often that you're not going to get that actor you had in mind. There's an audition process and everyone involved has a say, and, and so once you cast the actor that you get, who's close enough to that part, then the role will the role naturally start changing if it goes to series because you start writing to the actors strengths, and you steer away from their weaknesses. So that'll definitely change

Nick VinZant 9:17

kind of brought this up a little bit earlier. But I think the question that everybody wonders is like, how much do you get paid?

Michael Jamin 9:23

Enough? It depends on it. Honestly, it depends on your level. So staff writers, the lowest level and then it goes all the way up to co executive producer and executive producer that's in TV that's the highest level then the the showrunners kind of like executive producer and the creator. So there are Writers Guild, the Writers Guild that sets the minimums and that will change whether you're doing a half hour show an hour long show cable streaming network every there's different rates. It's a falls in a whole different range. And you I get paid per episode produced. So if the show is doing 22 episodes, I make a lot of money. If the show is only eight episodes on on cable, that's obviously a lot less money. So it just depends.

Nick VinZant 10:07

And then residuals like, how does that work? Because you get continued to get paid, right?

Michael Jamin 10:11

If the show sells somewhere like they start, you know, yeah, if it's if it reruns somewhere, and the writer of that episode, we get paid a residual. And that also is negotiated by the Writers Guild. And so it's standard across the board. So I don't have to say, hey, you know, this show, it's not like, the writers on friends will get more money in residuals than writers on some show you never heard of, it's just that their episodes will air more often. And so though that great, will it keep? You know, okay, well keep getting a check more often. But the actual amount is the same.

Nick VinZant 10:45

Our most writers struggling or if you've got like a good, or you do you do pretty well,

Michael Jamin 10:51

it, you know, it, it's gotten harder over the years, because the series orders have gotten shorter. So if you're working on a show that only does eight episodes, a season, that's a lot harder to make a living than one that would do 22 episodes. So when I broke into the business, there were four networks, there's ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox, basically, and some smaller cable channels. And so it was, I think it was easier than to make a living than is now because you could be on a hit show now, but it only does eight episodes a season. Right? You could be on Barry, which is on HBO, I don't know. Maybe they do 10 or something hit show, but they're not working that much. So once you get off that shit, so you have to, you have to hopefully sell a pilot in between or maybe pick up another job in between that, that the schedule is aligned so that you can go back to your hit show.

Nick VinZant 11:37

I'm fascinated by logistics. And when I look at places like all the streaming services, like are there enough writers to write all this stuff?

Michael Jamin 11:45

There are bad in Hollywood, the number of working writers, his soul is just a little bit more than the number of active players in the NFL. Okay, so it's about the same, maybe a little bit more. It's in the 1000s. But yeah, it's it's not a ton of it's very competitive. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 12:04

But why is it? Why is it still that competitive win for me for somebody looking on the outside is like MIT, there's 1000s of shows on each one of these streaming platforms? And like, why is it still so competitive? When it seems like we got it? What are the math there doesn't seem to work out right 1000s of shows eight to 10 people.

Michael Jamin 12:22

But ya know, if it's a smaller show, so my partner and I ran a show called Marin on IFC, which is critical. Not many people saw it as critically, the critics loved it. But the first seat it was a low budget show, the first season, there are only four of us as writers, only four writers, me and my partner, the star of the show, Mark Marin, and one of the young staff writer. And so it's not a lot of people, as the show, as the show progressed over the year of the couple of the seasons, we had four seasons, we added more writers, but okay, you can remember. So I'm talking about working writers at any given time. So if you're, if your shows on the or you're working, you know, if you're shooting at your shows on the air, but then it wraps, and now you're not a working writer anymore. Now you have to become working, right? So there's all these shows, but they're not like, they're not working all around around the clock. They're not, you know, around this around the year,

Nick VinZant 13:06

like what's the percentage of people who would try to do this and fail?

Michael Jamin 13:12

Well, you know, breaking into how they was one thing, making a career out of it is quite another. So there are definitely writers who, who break in and they're on a show, then they flame out. They never work again. That's not uncommon. Or they work out, they flee and they work again, another five years later, it's just you know, it's so to make a career out of it. It's like to me, I'm like, I'm the that football player in the NFL. Wow, that guy is still playing good for him. It's been kicking around that, you know, that guy. Wow. Okay, I thought he was gonna him. He's still around. Okay.

Nick VinZant 13:45

How come people don't last right? Are they just relying on like a confluence of events to be a good job, or they just only have so many certain ideas or how come you know,

Michael Jamin 13:54

sometimes it's a talent, sometimes it's just not good enough to last sometimes it's a that's just the way the luck will be like breaks. Like if you get on a hit show, and you work for 10 years blue, good for you, you know, but as a young staff writer, and you break into a show, and it goes for 10 years, you got it made, but you could also break onto a show that that only goes like three episodes before getting cancelled. And that's that's the way the cookie crumbles. And the fact that the show is a hit, when you're young writer, you really have very little say over the show becomes a hit or a giant failure. You're You're too young and inexperienced, you don't really have that kind of control. You're just trying to keep up and learn. And so a lot of that is luck.

Nick VinZant 14:33

Obviously, you don't have to name names or anything like that. But can you think of people in your experience that you would say like, you know, they were a great writer and things just didn't work out for them?

Michael Jamin 14:41

Yeah, that definitely happens and I can think of people who are not great writers and things didn't work out for them. So there's a little bit of ball

Nick VinZant 14:48

um, we got a bunch of listener submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Michael Jamin 14:54

All right, listeners see what you can do.

Nick VinZant 14:56

Show you knew that would be a hit show you knew would be A bus show you weren't sure of.

Michael Jamin 15:02

I was. Yeah, I knew my, when I read this pilot episode of Modern Family, oh, that's going to be a hit. I loved it. I love just loved it. And that was written by Steven Levitan, who my partner and I worked for, just shoot me. So he created just shoot me. And then we read the pilot script from our family, we were at the time, my partner Ray, we're running a show called Glenmark, DDS on Nick at Night. And so that was kind of a big step for us. Because we were, we were the bosses and we had seen if you saw the script for Modern Family Law, that's going to be ahead. But I mean, I really should, you had to take that back, I knew it was going to be a good show, I didn't know is going to be a hit. Because there's just so many things that are outside of the control of of the show, you know, the the quality script was good. I didn't know that they were going to get the great actors, that sometimes doesn't happen. Sometimes the cast doesn't gel. And sometimes the network will put it on a bad time slot or won't, they won't let allow the show to grow long enough to allow it to become a head sometimes they get canceled. Sometimes good shows get cancelled before they could become a hit. So, but it became a hit.

Nick VinZant 16:03

Any show that you knew like that this this, this is a show that you were working on?

Michael Jamin 16:08

Yeah, like, absolutely. And I've done some of those. And I got this is not going to be a hit. But the job worked out well in terms of my schedule. And so I got we, my partner had, we had one job, and then the show wrapped and we had some time before it came up again. And so we had this big break in our schedule, and we go okay, this is good. You can this is we can make some money here. Even though the show is not going to be a hit doesn't matter. I can you know, I get paid to be to write, so I'm going to write on it.

Nick VinZant 16:34

Any show that you were on that you just had no idea. Like this could go either way.

Michael Jamin 16:40

Um, that's kind of every show because most of it like I said, it's one thing to make a good show and it's something for it become a hit. So I worked. We worked on a show called out of practice, which was on CBS was a sitcom with starring Henry Winkler Ty Burrell. Before he was Phil on Modern Family, stocker Channing and Chris Gorham and Paula Marshall, it was a great cast. And the head writers were joking and Chris Lloyd, to Chris ran Frazier for many, many years. incredibly, incredibly talented writer, Joe as well, like the writing staff was like the opposite. It was the fact that we were chosen for this, to be hired to this writing staff was kind of an honor because it was an all star, they could choose anybody. It was an all star team to be on the show. And I thought the show was excellent. It was really funny. A lot of heart. The network just it didn't give it enough chance to grow the numbers. And so as I thought it was canceled way before its time, and it was a shame, but it could have gone either way. Excellent show that no one really saw.

Nick VinZant 17:43

favorite character you've ever written for?

Michael Jamin 17:47

Oh, you know, I've written I can't say a favorite character. I really can't that would be insulting. I love writing for Nina Van Horn I just shoot me but also David Spade I've written for him on two different shows. Just Shoot Me and and rules of engagement as a writer on that as well. But Mark marron she's, you know, he was an amazing, amazing character and brave. I like writing, we like writing for stand ups, because they're very, they tend to be very brave. And they'll like, as long as he gets a laugh, they're like, I'll do that they're not too worried about their image. Whereas actors might kind of think, well, I don't want people to think that about me, but stand up. So like, I'll do it. So he was a pleasure to write for for four years. But there's so much I'm just I'm singling out like, there's so many. The show I'm currently working on is Tacoma, FD. And the guys who are the actors, Kevin Hefner, and Steve Lemmy. They're the stars, but also the head writers of the show and their pleasure. They're just a pleasure to work for and write for, and they're in the writers room the whole time, and you pitch them a joke or story idea. And you say, say this, that what would happen if you say, and they'll say, oh, that's hilarious. And you're actually the actors actually saying, you know, this is going to work because you're the star and I can tell it's going to work because you just set it. So that's, that's a pleasure, too.

Nick VinZant 19:02

We don't we don't get into politics on this show. And we'll try to have this conversation, I guess, without getting into politics, necessarily. But when you see kind of the Kancil culture that's coming about, right, do you when he as a rider, like do you take that into account? Would you say like, oh, we can't do that? Because this might happen? Or do you purposely like Go for

Michael Jamin 19:23

it? Yeah, no, there's there's much more sensitivity now in terms of, you know, hurt hurting people, you know, he never he never really wanted to hurt people. But when we when we started off, on just shoot me years ago, the rule of thumb was in the writers room, you could say anything you wanted, even no matter how offensive it was, as long as it was funny, as long as it got a laugh in the room in the writers room. And that was kind of the role and then then now we're a little more sensitive, you don't want to hurt people and that's kind of a little more awareness. Yeah, so it's a balancing act. You know, you don't you definitely won't hurt people but you also want to entertain

Nick VinZant 19:59

kind of one of theirs. Like if everybody goes, Oh, I don't know, then yeah,

Michael Jamin 20:02

like, right. Yeah. But I'm not going to worry about the wackos out there.

Nick VinZant 20:07

Hardest season to write. I think what this person means is in terms of like, alright, so you have a show that runs for five seasons like which one of those is the hardest season? Like the first one? The last one? The?

Michael Jamin 20:18

Yeah, the first one can be the most the most difficult because you get a lot into first the writers are still trying to find the show. The first step is you're like, Well, what is the show what you know, and also what dynamics are working within the between the characters. And until you find that you can be flailing and you get also the network is worried it's a big investment, these shows cost a lot of money. So that network wants to protect their investment, you got a lot of interference, but once the show, finds its legs and finds its audience and the network feels Oh, okay, we can calm down. Now we know it's working, things tend to get a little easier.

Nick VinZant 20:51

You know, I always hear these things about right like the network, the boss's the man, that kind of thing. All over the place. When they have notes or criticisms of shows, do you generally understand where they're coming from? Or people like what?

Michael Jamin 21:05

No, is the notes tend to be very similar. And the notes, if they can't, it's not like the network. These executives know how to do your job they have, they have a job, they know how to do their job, but they don't know how to do my job because they're not writers. So a lot of times they want reassurance, they just want to know that the show is in good hands. And if you can, they have an objection. And if you can explain it, then they go, Okay, I see your point. Sometimes their notes are valid, and you go okay, I don't really think about that. Let me rethink the episode and, and we can address your notes or at least addressed the spirit of the note. But usually it's well intentioned. It's not like they're trying to they're not trying to be jerks. You know, they're trying to help.

Nick VinZant 21:42

Best written TV show currently. And if it's one of yours, say it's one of yours.

Michael Jamin 21:46

Oh, well, that's written TV show. Well, I don't know. But currently, I thought I thought fleabag was a masterpiece. And you know, that was a couple years ago, but I thought it was beautifully written and it felt to me that very much like a like a stage play. And of course it was it was based on a stage play. So I just thought, Phoebe Waller bridge. I think she's an amazingly gifted writer made and talented, accurate, and she's a force. So that's my number one. But there's a lot out there that I love. I think Handmaid's Tale is brilliant. That's not a comedy, of course. But I just think it's cheesy. I think it's brilliant.

Nick VinZant 22:18

The show that you would look at though and say like, that's all time. This is the best written show from a writing perspective.

Michael Jamin 22:27

I remember as a kid I wanted to write on Cheers. I thought that was cheers is a brilliant show. I loved it. I always felt it had a lot of heart and a lot of warmth and felt like these. They were family, these characters were like, you just want to hang out with them. To me, that's the pinnacle. And I so I aspire to be writer and cheers. And then I finally moved out to Hollywood. And I started working. And then when I got on out of practice that I was talking about that was written on. We filmed that in the same soundstage on paramount at Paramount that cheers was filmed on, and I Oh, I made it, but I'm just 10 years too late, but I made it. I got here. So and I worked with and I've written. I've worked on some shows with many of those writers x, right, the people who wrote on chairs, and I've since written with them, and I was so cool on the top man, I get to hang out with these guys.

Nick VinZant 23:11

This kind of leads us into this one favorite experience as a writer

Michael Jamin 23:16

might have been just shoot me because that was my first job. And I was like, Wow, I'm here. I did it. This was my childhood dream. And I made it. And so that was very exciting. But my partner I also ran show, which I mentioned, Glenn Martin, DDS and also mer, and that was our first time running a show where you're the boss. And that was a great experience, because then you're really you have more creative control. And you also feel like, wow, I made it on the boss. But even but now I'm not like I don't have the same desire. Like I gotta be the boss. I'm like, oh, no, I've been the boss. I'm okay. I'm okay. Not being the boss to that's fine. There's plenty to be, you know, you don't have the same stress. So that's good.

Nick VinZant 23:52

These are some of the more lighthearted ones are. Our audience is very light hearted. They're smart. They're very light hearted, good. Um, are writers out of ideas?

Michael Jamin 24:02

No, no, we're not. That's no, we're not out of ideas. There's plenty of ideas, ideas, Hollywood tends to choose, you may think that we're out of ideas, because why they keep on why are they making Rocky 10? Why are they making only Avengers movies? And it's because those ideas are much easier to market. And so it's a business. So there's plenty of ideas, the question, the ones that get made are the ones that that Hollywood that would protect their investment feels like, we can sell this idea it's easy to market, we don't have to take a giant risk. They don't want to you know, it's a business, they want to make money, they want to minimize their losses. So I get that so we're not out of ideas, but it may seem that way. And I understand why you think we are

Nick VinZant 24:41

is but how come like is that way in pretty much every sitcom right? They're gonna have kind of the staple of the episodes. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but like, where this character has this happened to them. Like there's always kind of the same general theme. Is that because that's the natural evolution of their care. Are the writers like, hey, we know this works do this,

Michael Jamin 25:03

you know, shows her sitcoms particularly are about relationships. So if you have a core five characters that you're going to hit all those different dynamics, and then when you run out of those relationships to explore, sometimes you'll, you'll create an arc you'll create Yo, this character will okay the what if these two characters break up? What if they get together? Now let's do a whole season where they're dating, what is this character goes to night school? Okay, now we have all these ideas to do. So that's what we have arcs to kind of open it up a little bit. But in terms of, you know, it's, I guess, is the best way I can answer that question, really. So I don't really feel like it's the same thing over and over again, if you find something that works, that dynamic that works. Like, for example, we're on just shoot me, when we discover that George Segal and David Spade were magic together, let's just keep putting them in scenes together, because they're always funny together. So there's that if something works, let's keep doing why are we going to do something worse? Why break it?

Nick VinZant 25:57

I know, this is kind of a very broad question. But in general, like, how much did the actors change the writing?

Michael Jamin 26:03

Um, it depends if how, if you have an actor who's also an executive producer on the show, which happens sometimes, then you can pitch them an idea. And if they don't want to do it, they're not doing it. Well. First, you can never make an actress. You can't literally put words in their mouth, if they don't want to say a line. They're human beings are not going to say it right. So hopefully, the you can build trust with them. And they'll bow though, you know, understand that it's, it's a partnership. But a good actor, or a great actor will surprise you with her line readings. And you Oh, wow, you just made it better than I imagined. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. So a great actor can do that. Catherine O'Hara, we wrote for her and Glenn Martin, DDS, and Kevin Nealon, Judy Greer, they're all like that. They're all like, man, you just made my work so much better.

Nick VinZant 26:53

There's obviously the reverse of that, though. Yes,

Michael Jamin 26:55

there's definitely the reverse. And then you try to write, you know, you steer away from you know, okay, that actor does not play that color very well. Are they can they weep? I know, they can't hit that line without seeming without making it sound kind of mean. So you just write away from that. That's part of learning who these people are and being aware of their abilities.

Nick VinZant 27:16

This is, this is the same person who asked this question to all of our guests, no matter how they who they are, whatever their thing is, how do you feel about Game of Thrones season eight?

Michael Jamin 27:26

Okay, I will tell you that. So I loved Game of Thrones. And I thought it was wonderful. And here's what I have to say about season eight. also wonderful. Thank you. You don't know how hard this job is to create, to you know, to make this show work. It was a giant production. And I thought, Hey, I was happy with it. I thought it was I loved I loved it just as much. And I have a great appreciation for the amount of work that went into it. And I'm not going to bad now that I'm that's crazy. Oh, I could do better. That's nuts, then do better. When people say that okay, then do better. Go ahead. Better.

Nick VinZant 28:03

It's so weird how public perception changes something because I was I'm a huge Game of Thrones fans. This album, see isn't me asking this question. But I don't know it just suddenly kind of like, as it was it,

Michael Jamin 28:16

your intent was for it. And you're entitled to your opinion. But I do I do get it rubs me the wrong way. And people say, Oh, I can do better. Well then do better. Let's see it

Nick VinZant 28:26

from okay. And slightly. Maybe I can ask you this question. From a writer's perspective. Was that always going to be it? Right? Like when you talk about season finales and using Game of Thrones as an example? Was that always how this was naturally going to end?

Michael Jamin 28:42

No, I'm sure if it I'm sure not. I mean, there's no way you could plan season two episode one or a season because you might get cancelled anytime between now and season eight or whatever, there's no way you can map out that arc. That's just too crazy. And yes, they had source material to work from the books. So that made of course, you know, easier. But, you know, I'm sure the writers on that show were they were they wanted to surprise they want to come up with an ending I was surprised that would not be predictable. It's hard. It's like well, where's that balancing out? How do you give the how do you give the audience what they want without giving them what they want? Because if you do they're going to be disappointed as well. You know,

Nick VinZant 29:17

yeah, that's kind of what I mean in that sense is like no matter what they did, it wasn't gonna be Yeah, and always gonna be like me The Sopranos

Michael Jamin 29:25

are the same thing brilliant show and then go to Tony die at the end or not. I was like, Well you know, right. If you if you give the audience what they want they're gonna be mad either way. So you try to surprise them breaking bad I don't believe fell into that trap. I think they I think every single episode of that it in my opinion, it was as if it was written on a clay tablet and and handed to them from God. It's like how did what amazing writing team to be able to do that? And so yeah, that ending felt very satisfying to me and surprising, but okay, it could have gone it could have gone the other way just as well and I still would have loved the show.

Nick VinZant 29:59

Do you Do you listen to that as a writer? No, just like, No, I

Michael Jamin 30:03

don't. I don't I try not to listen to. I try to listen to reviews. If you listen to the good, this isn't obviously everyone says, if you take the good reviews, you have to take the bad ones and I refuse to take either. So I don't. I write for myself, and to make a living for my family. And because it provides me with creative joy, to live that kind of lifestyle. And so, if you like it great if you don't like it, I'm not doing it for you.

Nick VinZant 30:26

But you worked on Beavis and Butthead, who was the better character Beavis or butthead?

Michael Jamin 30:31

No, man. They're a team and there's it's called Beavis and Butthead. You can't have one without the other. You need both.

Nick VinZant 30:39

I think trying to bring that back. They're always

Michael Jamin 30:41

trying to bring it back. I think, you know, there's always talking about bringing it back.

Nick VinZant 30:45

Michael Jordan of TV writing,

Michael Jamin 30:47

there are certain who is? Well, yeah, I guess you'd have to say, the Michael Jordan of sitcom writing. You know, I would say Chris Lloyd is definitely up there. You know, there's so many writers who are just like, Man, this this person, you know, and to work with those people. You know, Michael Jordan makes everyone on his team better. Michael Jordan cannot win a championship without the for the people on the on the floor. We know he'll admit that. Right. So he's now a one against five. So to work with people like that, you know, and I only just mentioned Chris lead, because he's because he's kind of well known. And Steve Levitan as well is also extremely bright and very talented. But I've worked with other writers who you haven't heard of who are like we talked about who are incredibly gifted, but haven't reached that level of success because of luck. Who are and I can I've learned from all of them.

Nick VinZant 31:39

What advice would you give to somebody who feels that their stuff is good, but just can't break through?

Michael Jamin 31:48

Yeah, I It's funny cuz I, I mentioned shortly I post every day I've been doing this but for months, I post writing advice on on social media. Like how to be better how to write how to break into the business, how to be an actor ahead as a director, and you can find it on pretty much any platform at Michael jamman. Writer. So Instagram for sure. And Facebook and Tik Tok, but it's that I get that question a lot. And in the people say, Well, how do I? How do I get my script into the right hands? And I don't think that's a good question to ask, I think the better question to ask is, because it takes the power away from you. You're saying, My, I have a great script, and it has to get into the right hands, but you don't have the right hands? And you don't have the right how do I find the person with the right hands. And it takes all the responsibility and blame out of view the writer and puts the blame on the person with the hands? And that's a cop out? I think a better question to ask is How do I write a script that's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth. Because if you write a great script, and you give it to somebody who's someone who knows someone who knows someone in the business, and everyone knows someone who knows someone, right, and that person reads it, and they go, Wow, this is a great script, I'm gonna pass it along the line I'm gonna give to somebody else who is a little closer in the business, not because not because I want to help you, who cares about you, I'm going to pass it along, because it helps me because if I give that script to someone, that person who's closer to business, I'll look like a star to them, because they need good scripts. And if I give them something they want, now I look at me now I'm now I'm a boss, right. And the same thing now that person reads the script and they go, Wow, this is a really good script, I can't do anything with it. Sorry, I can't do this is a really nice, I got cut off. This is a really great script. I can't do anything with it. But But I know someone who knows someone, and they can do something, and maybe an agent or a manager. And that's how the script gets passed up further and further along the line. Until finally gets into the person who says I can't this is a true, I can't pay you for this script. I can't use this script. But I have a project that I'm working on. And and I need you to write it. Because you have something that I need. You have talent and knew how to write a great script. And so and then that now you're now they want to exploit you. Now instead of you begging to get work, they're begging you to be exploited. I want to pay you because you have something I need talent and ability. That's how you do it. But no one ever asked that question. Because it's it requires work. And it requires the ability to okay, I want to learn everyone. And this includes me when I broke in. I was like, here's the script, can someone just give me a lot of money for it doesn't work that way. You know, it's too easy. So the better question is, how do I write a script that's so good. Doesn't matter whose hands it falls into that requires learning your craft writing all the time studying, listening to people like me, I'm not the only one on social media who talks of finding a good teacher, a teacher who knows what the hell they're talking about. There's plenty of teachers who don't but and that requires commitment of time and investment in your own energy of investment of energy and often money because you have to learn. So that's what I recommend. Oh, why don't you weren't expecting a lecture, but you got one.

Nick VinZant 34:54

One of our questions actually was like, give us your best TV writing grant, that was it. That's it, man, that might have been it. Um, I guess on the other side of that, that kind of plays along with it, you know, squid game is the super popular thing right now. How do you kind of know like that Right? Or the big thing was like he went 10 years everybody telling him this is crap, this is crap, this is crap. How do you know when to stick to your guns? Or to really like, oh, maybe this really is crap.

Michael Jamin 35:26

And I don't and I know, that's true. But I don't know the rest of the story of his career. Um,

Nick VinZant 35:30

I don't I don't have know anything else about it. Either.

Michael Jamin 35:32

I imagined he had this great idea for a show and he's trying to sell it. But in the meantime, he was trying to do other work I imagined, okay, I can also come up with another script, or I'm gonna try to write in this show or that show. Like, it's not like you just put all your eggs in one basket. You know, you kind of I think that would be foolish. You want to continue, okay, I wrote something great. Maybe I can't find the right market for it. But I'm like, write something else and write something else and something. So you have to continue writing. And I again, the first scripts that I wrote 26 years ago, I thought were great. I thought they were great, right? But now when I look at him, I cringe because I see how much I've grown as a writer over the years. And that's all I've only grown because I've continued writing. It's not because I was hanging desperately on to this one script that I wrote. So write it, put it aside, write something else.

Nick VinZant 36:16

Um, that's really all the questions I got, man, anything you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Michael Jamin 36:22

Uh, yeah, so I go back to as a writer, co executive producer, and Tacoma FD that starts probably, I'm thinking in January, my partner, I have a couple of pilots that we sold that we're currently writing. So that's good. And by the way, when you sell a pilot doesn't mean it's gonna be gone here, it means they've paid you to write a pilot script. And then there's, once they there's that you get to that step. And then maybe if they like it, maybe they shoot it. And if they shoot it, maybe they put it on the air. So there's a lot of maybes between now and then. So that's the word that's the life of a writer. Well, I'm happy that we saw this, we get to write it. So there's that. And again, like I talked about, I, I and I'm working on a collection of personal essays that I'm hoping to publish soon. And so that's what's next for me. And I also, like I said it post every day, this started during the pandemic, I had a friend who was begging, want to break into the business. And he's like I am and I used to talk to him, you know, but he I read a script and I couldn't help. And he said, You got to make a course. I'm like, Dude, I don't have time to make a course. You got to do it. And then pandemic hit and shut everything down. So I was literally had nothing to do for the first six months, the band had nothing to do. There's nothing going on in my career in Hollywood, everything was shut down, everyone is hunkered in their homes. And so that's when I made this course. And if any, any of your listeners want to want to check it out, they can learn more about that Michael Jackson comm slash course. And I also post just for fun on Instagram and tick tock and Facebook just daily tips. When we get off of this, I'm gonna go make my my three minute video on tick tock or whatever that I'm gonna share just about, you know, how to be a writer how to live a more creative life and how to break into the business. So if that interests you, go ahead, follow me there. You know, people want that.

Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown

There’s subtle signs that can tell you if a person loves you, is lying to you or might be a threat. Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown is not only an expert at reading those signs, he can also teach you how to do it. We talk reading others’ body language, controlling your body language and why you should always trust your gut. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Pastries.

Dr. Jack Brown: 01:40ish

Pointless: 26:02ish

Top 5: 48:07ish

https://www.bodylanguageeq.com (Dr. Jack Brown Website)

https://twitter.com/DrGJackBrown (Dr. Jack Brown Twitter)

Interview with Body Language Expert Dr. Jack Brown

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the secrets of body language and pastries.

Dr. Jack Brown 0:23

I've actually I started studying body language when I was teenager, I was around an adult who I looked up to. And because I wanted to know how did I was pissed off that like at myself that I didn't see that this guy was nefarious. When people lie, they'll often they'll often elevate off their chair for a split second when they lie. So you can show people that are brain blind pictures of guys coming in with a knife or, or a line or something really scary, lunging at them, and they will still feel fear.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So have you ever been suspicious of someone attracted to somebody or thought someone was lying to you. And even though you felt really strongly about it, you couldn't figure out why. It might have something to do with their body language. And our first guest is an expert at reading, interpreting, and teaching people to spot the subtle signs of body language. This is body language expert, Dr. JACK Brown. So how did you get started in this?

Dr. Jack Brown 1:41

Actually, I started studying body language. When I was a teenager, I was around an adult who I looked up to, and this adult, I really looked up to them and they ended up not being a good person. So I went to my parents and I said, hey, how do you tell a good person for a bad person? And they gave me a pretty good answer. My parents are good interpersonal skills, but I wasn't satisfied. So I started reading site psychology journals in middle school. And because I wanted to know how did I was pissed off that like at myself that I didn't see that this guy was nefarious? Are

Nick VinZant 2:14

people generally pretty good at, at assessing people's body language? Are we bad at it?

Dr. Jack Brown 2:19

There's a variable skill? That's a great question. The variable skill level, they're women in general are better than men. And there's reasons for that women tend to have a, if you look them are under a functional MRI scan, not a diagnostic one, but a research MRI scan, you'll see that they're if you show him a short video or a picture or something, their brain might be lit up in 25 different places where a man's is lit up in three or four. So you know, women are better whole brain thinkers, and women in general are better communicators. And, and communication is a great example of a multitasking skill. You know, you're constantly what is what did he say? What did I just say? Oh, I was thinking I was gonna say this. I think I say that, oh, look what he did with his face, or like that was where What was that? So you're constantly reassessing. And so it's a multitasking thing, women are better at multitasking. And that goes along with those other things. So people that have less formal education, ironically, to some people are better. And the reason is, is because we tend to look at our degree, and we say, Oh, look, I Johns Hopkins, or Look, I went to the University of you know, Minnesota where, you know, and we tend to really validate those those formal education. And we tend to invalidate and ignore our informal education and our street smarts, people who've been through trauma, whatever the kind of trauma is, it could be sexual trauma, could be physical trauma, could be emotional trauma, you know, they're going to grow up discriminating as they are right now, who can I trust? Who can I trust? Can people

Nick VinZant 3:54

hide it though? Right? Like, obviously, people are aware of body language. I think that people in general kind of get the concept of it. Can somebody hide their body language very well? Or is it something that like, we don't even consciously think of

Dr. Jack Brown 4:10

the short answer that is, yes, it's possible. But usually, even for very skilled people, even for just a short period of time, when actors go in and out of character, there's a real interesting phenomenon, like when they, when they're you have an actor, that's a really skilled actor goes out of character, they have an emotional release. And you see it on their face, and you see different, you know, verbal and nonverbal behaviors going on, that's really akin to what a liar would would do on a smaller scale, and dampened down so when a liar, a liar will get good at suppressing the body language, like kind of like you alluded to a few minutes ago, and then when they go out of character, so they're still sitting in front of you, so they were suppressing it. And now they go through a moment where they're not suppressing it very good. So they come out of it. character. So if you get skilled at looking for these things, you can see them Oh, like wait a second, he had a good poker face there and like were just what was that? What was that, and these are the what these are the people coming in and out of character. And another thing that is really common is they might suppress one part of their face, but it shows up on the other part of the face. So they might suppress their face and it shows up on another part of the body. But even people that do it really well only can do it for a few seconds. And you know, I'm an expert, I don't I don't have a good poker face.

Nick VinZant 5:32

Now, I mean, when you look at people's like behaviors, is it pretty standard across everybody, right? Like you make this gesture This means this or two people vary.

Dr. Jack Brown 5:43

There is definitely individual idiosyncrasies, idiosyncratic behavior, there's inter cultural, idiosyncratic behavior, but, but both of those make up a pretty small minority, for example, the the, you know, between between cultures, it's, it's less than 1% of all your behavior is culturally learned. But those stick out in your mind you're going to notice the red flower in the middle of the yellow flowers and it sticks out but you know, it gives you a false idea of how frequent it is. And and so it's far less than 1% In fact, someone can be born blind from the time they're born born blind and not have any kind of biofeedback as to what kind of face do I make? Or what kind of body do I make any kind of situation and they still will have the same body language

Nick VinZant 6:34

when you look at people though like can you tell generally like okay this person is nice this person's a jerk this person's this or are you just seeing their current emotion reflected in their body language another

Dr. Jack Brown 6:47

great question. If you're really skilled, you can make big pattern umbrella judgments and you can you like there are certain behaviors that are super common for a sociopath psychopath. There are certain behaviors that and you can see those in a pretty short period of time but you still want again, you want a sample size, a decent chunk of time, generally speaking, how body language is classically taught and for the vast majority of times when I teach it it's what's this person is thinking feeling in this moment, because you can have a really you can have a pathological person and you show pictures if you hit someone to hypnotize you in forgot, say you forget all your long term memory, you can see videos of Adolf Hitler you know, petting a dog, he's supposedly like dogs a lot. And you know, lots of people do like dogs and that's generally a good sign. But, but yeah, you know, where he looks Oh, you know, if you if you if you didn't know that, or if you're hitting the ties to forget all those long term memories, but you did have the body language skill, you might make a false assessment that he was stable, or a kind person or, or non pathological. So most of the time, it's what is this person thinking feeling at that moment, but the more skill you have, you definitely can make big pattern.

Nick VinZant 8:05

So I read something one time that when we feel an emotion, our body reacts to it, before we even process that this is how we're feeling is that is that a true thing, the kind of idea that like something makes me happy that my body shows that I'm happy before my brain even realizes that I'm happy.

Dr. Jack Brown 8:24

And there's lots of reasons for that. And some we're still discovering, you know, part of it is just the speed that we process a part of is multitasking. Part of it is what you know, what we might be doing. And the other things this scenario we're in, in part of it is the speed of the nervous system, how quick the nervous signals travel, there's a fascinating thing that's relatively recently discovered. And that has a it's a, it's a connection that we have, that our visual system has with a part of the brain that interprets fear. And so you can show this is so fascinating. So if you have a person who's blind, and there's different ways to be blind, you can be blind in the eyes, but your eyes can also be perfectly functional and the nerves that connect the eyeballs to the back of the brain, the visual part of the brain, they can be functional, but say the brain is blind so someone was hit back here or had a brain tumor or had a stroke and so their brain blind but their eyes weren't good. Okay, so with that as a setup, so you can show people that are brain blind pictures of guys come in with a knife or or a line or something really scary, lunging at them, and they will still feel fear. They say I don't know what this picture is, but I feel fear. So when you look at an audience and or look at a person you go, Oh, you know this song about this guy that bugs me there's something there there's a situation here that bugs me there this person bugs me or you even look at a crowd and you pick someone out and go that person bugs me. There, there's something there. There's something I'm worried about it, listen to those always Oh, Listen to those, that's your amygdala talking. And this is a fascinating validation of what my gut is saying and what my instincts are saying, right? You know, those words those euphemisms that people use for their, their instincts or their subconscious. And this is a physiologic basis for that, that's relatively recent discovered. And that doesn't mean it's the only reason that our, our, our gut or instincts Q is in, we might discover some other things, some things we may never discover, you know, who knows, there might be a supernatural component to that, you know, but, but that is one physiologic component that's really, really fascinating. So, and like, you can take the people that are best at looking at a group of people, that that looks at a group of people and can pick out the bad actors or potential bad actors in that crowd. Who's the best at that third trimester pregnant women, mothers in general are better. And fathers are better than non fathers and mothers are better than non mothers. And the theory is that they're the there's a hormonal base that says that really revs up or tunes up that amygdala connection that I was talking about. Of course, there's overlap there with PTSD, you can you can view over look at everything as trauma when maybe none of it or the vast majority of it isn't. And so there is, you know, that can be taken too far. And I'm not saying that this connection is the basis for PTSD. I'm just saying there's maybe an overlap and that phenomenon, that's a fascinating thing you can over interpret. So you know, you don't want to do that either. But yeah, that's That to me is is is fascinating. And and so I've debrief people who have been kidnapped and of course if they didn't escape, no one would be interviewing him and and what are some of the things and there are there are different authors that speak about this, and you can read this other you know, I'm not the only one who's done this, by any means. But there are people who have been kidnapped and they say, there was a moment when a light went off in my head, I shouldn't do this, or I shouldn't you know, it was before they were surprised, maybe they were cooperating with someone or helping someone do something or someone you know, they befriended someone or, you know, but something was a little off and they didn't listen to their instincts. And but there was a little voice in their head that there's something there and they ignored it, and they suppress it and they suppress it and suppress it, we might do that with a spouse who ends up being a bad spouse or a lover you know, we don't get kidnapped, we just end up being our business decision. You know, business partner, there's a little voice in your head that says something and you suppress it, you get good at suppressing that,

Nick VinZant 12:40

if we're trying to if you're trying to get a read on somebody is there like a place on their body that okay, you should watch this area, because that's going to tell you first what this person is like.

Dr. Jack Brown 12:51

In general, the most important part of the body is the face. And the most important part of the face are the eyes. So you know, learn to look at people's eyes and say, if I was an eight year old, would I trust them, you know, that we bring in all this baggage that we use to rationalize and to cloud our judgment from the truth. So you know, try and look at that person you're in your best case scenario being objective. Another place that people show tension is in their mid face and the mustache area, this right below your nose and above your upper lip, and that does that whole region doesn't have a name, but you can call it the mustache area. People show tension in their mid face, their nostrils might flare a little bit there might see a slight slight tension in their in their in their mouth area. Usually when people are opening their eyelids wide. Usually the forehead goes up kind of like I'm doing right now my foreheads going up and my eyes are open wider and a liar slash con man slash someone who's chronically insincere slash someone who's chronic liar. Someone slash someone who can not be trusted tends to overuse their forehead, so their forehead is always up, their eyebrows are always up, their eyelids are always a little bit wider. Okay, that's the person who's trying too hard. It's like using 19 exclamation marks at the end of a sentence instead of just saying yes or no. You know, yeah, why are you trying too hard? Why are you being overexpressing in your face. Another one is in particular is when their their center forehead is contracted. So just their center forehead is contracted in the center eyebrows are going up, kind of like I'm doing right now. And this is super important, not with the sad mouth, but with a little bit of a smile, not with the big smile usually, but when you have that center forehead, and a little bit of a smile. That is something we all do once in a while so I just demonstrated that but we all do it once in a while when we're feeling arrogant. Hopefully you don't feel arrogant too much. We all do it once in a while when we're feeling smug, incredulity. we all we all feel we all do that when we feel in contempt but we all do that facial expression once in a while but people that do it a lot that center forehead contraction with a little bit of a mouth smile or a modest smile smile those people have that's a really strong correlation with sociopathic behavior and psychopathic behavior. So sociopath psychopathic the technical term for that collective is antisocial personality disorder which should have a different name it sounds too benign but you know a sociopath or psychopath one of the biggest Check Point check marks in something whether someone's a sociopathic psychopath is chronic lying so get used to you know, if someone tells you they love you, I and you don't feel it, you're usually not feeling it because it's something that's lacking in their eyes.

Nick VinZant 15:42

Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions Sir Sir, biggest misconception people generally have about body language

Dr. Jack Brown 15:52

the biggest misconception is to look at if people we alluded to this earlier if they looked at one thing like oh this means they're lying you know if one one thing just one thing always mean this so it's a one to one translation that's that's the biggest misconception

Nick VinZant 16:07

most misinterpreted gesture.

Dr. Jack Brown 16:10

Oh, probably the most misinterpreted one is is one that people always cite is is when people crossing the line Oh yeah, you always hear you know there's different ways you can cross your arms You know, this crossing your arms with your fist is more hostile You know, this is is more insecure you know, you could just be cold um, you know, it could be you know, if you if you're a woman and you're crossing your arms over your breasts, that that's you know, a sign that you probably don't want to talk to this guy you know that that there's there's so there's lots of variations there but you can just plain old be cold, people who are more who are a little bit less than what they will sometimes do that just for comfort when they're sitting. So sometimes depending on your body shape and size you're you do it for more we all do it for comfort once in a while, but just reposition yourself on your chair you know if your chair has no arms you know there's a there's a lot of thing and you're sitting next to people so there's a lot of variations there. You never want to look at one thing but that's probably the most commonly cited misinterpreted you don't want it you you want to look at a lot of things you know, a person can be in love with you and still crossing their arms and further, you know, and there's Yeah, there's I can get I can get I can get a little There are of course sexual elements to some of these. I don't want to necessarily go there. Yeah, there's, so there's an I get a lot of those questions. But yeah, there are. That's probably the the most missing

Nick VinZant 17:50

the biggest one is like that one. So we talked a little bit about that, like women are better at reading it, but who is generally more expressive with their body language men or women,

Dr. Jack Brown 18:00

I would say that women as well, women as well, and they under but they understand the context of it. So a woman with another, a woman with a man who they don't know or don't trust, especially given like, say, in inner city setting, and they've never been that inner city or they know it to be bad is different when the same woman when she's talking amongst her friends and in a in a in a trusted environment. Whereas a guy will tend to have more one flavor across that spectrum. It's not that he won't vary. He will and and you know, there are plenty of women that aren't good at it. And there are plenty of men that are really astute at it. But in general women are definitely better than in demand at body language in both reading and expressing

Nick VinZant 18:43

people who are generally like if they have a traumatic upbringing, they're usually better at it. Why is that?

Dr. Jack Brown 18:49

It's because they have to thin slice human behavior. So if you're sexually assaulted or you know sexually abused or physically abused, or emotionally abused, you you look at people and you say, Who can I trust? Who can I trust in You see all sorts of subtlety that other people gloss over a

Nick VinZant 19:09

person whose body language that you looked at and were scared of our person that really jumped out at you like that person? Or I don't trust them.

Dr. Jack Brown 19:21

Yeah, you want you want a certain name?

Nick VinZant 19:24

If you if you want to give it

Dr. Jack Brown 19:27

there's lots of names. I like some of the show. I'll answer specifically your answer generally. I mean, like some of the mass killers that we've seen, of course, there's you know, like, Who's the who's the the guy from the early 70s that Oh, Manson. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. He's got the big eyes, the crazy eyes, you know, and you hear that? The term Crazy Eyes and the big eyes. Why are these people's eyes open wide if you look at say the Sandy Hook killer here, those wide open eyes or Guy Marshall Applewhite, yeah, there are there are certain facial expressions and certain things that really light up your mind. You know from a body language in that's one specific the wide, wide open eyes, you may not be able to describe in words, and you may not be able to bullet point it or write it down in any kind of words. If your instincts say something, I don't, I can't put my finger on it. But I don't trust this person, even if they have a good reputation, even if you heard about them from someone else, trust your gut, especially if there's element of physical danger involved. But even if it's business danger, you know,

Nick VinZant 20:38

best way to tell if somebody is attracted to you.

Dr. Jack Brown 20:41

So eye contact, it goes up. But it's it's a smile. And it's usually a suppressed smile with the eye contact. So this is with love and physical attraction, and blushing, people will blush a lot. And you know, what are they doing with the rest of their body to so when people are attracted, their pupils will get larger to say one person is really attracted the other one, say Person A is really attracted Person B, but Person B is semi attracted to Person A. But Person B sees persons as pupils get bigger, and their pupils get bigger. And then there's a feedback mechanism where each people starts getting bigger and bigger, bigger to a point of course, because the eyeballs only say, right, but this all happens at the subconscious level. You can't control your pupil size consciously at all. It all happens at the subconscious level. Now the other thing that might happen is they might lick their lips, the tongue to lip contact would tend to be slower, it wouldn't be quicker, we tend to be slower. Women tend to cross and uncross the legs more we tend to full body points towards the person we're attracted to. So our feet are pointed to them our hips are pointed to them. Our shoulders are pointed to them our face is pointed them in our eyes are pointing to them and we have high contact and you can fit it more in your chair not because you're good nervous not because you're bad nervous, so that's another reason why you fidgeting Why do you fish in your chair but you're you're really excited. You know people when people lie, they'll often they'll often elevate off their chair for a split second when they lie and that the reason for their is their their sphincter tone in their Peri genital regions tend to tighten up and loosen and tighten up and get stimulated. You know people say I almost pooped my pants or almost shit my pants people say that well in there's really physiology there too, and also a man's testicles. When when is a man's testicles pull up close to his abdomen. They do it for probably for four different reasons. One is when he's cold. Another one is when he's fearful. So when he's fearful, and that's he'll, he'll sit up off his chair you'll see him sit up off his chair a little bit. Another one is when he's sexually excited and another one is called the Kree mysteric reflex when you rub the inner part of the thigh, but just you know you're really attracted that person you're going to be shifting your chair to but that's more of a lateral shift and you're crossing and unquestioned your legs but your full body pointing at that person hugs to you don't if you're attracted to someone you're going to have more contact with them. I have one of the first body languages things I noticed as a teenager it's harder to fake a hug. If you really like someone or don't like somebody it's harder to fake a hug than it is to fake a kiss you can fake a good kiss but you cannot fake a good hug even if you know what to do You cannot fake that good hug and one of the reasons is just getting in closer you there tends to be more full body contact from the hips all the way down you know all the way up your is opposed to the Leaning kind of hugs

Nick VinZant 23:48

you know when you're leaning Yeah, that kind of like that. Yeah, I

Dr. Jack Brown 23:51

know you mean to the hug you know there's less full body contact, I have less affection for that person. So think of that more as an affection thing not so much as a sexual attraction thing. You know, another thing is you know it I get tons of people who say, well, is this guy fake? And he's liking me or does he really like me? Well always think is this affectionate? Because people can fake lust, and they can say things I love you I love you. But one of the things that appear affection affectionate like those like those true hugs, and what people tend to close their eyes longer. What else is if your palms have full contact with their back, you should feel a full palm our contact the full palm of their hand against your back. But if you ever notice your eyes being open during a hug, they shouldn't be you if you really are hugging someone and you're feeling affection, your eyes should be closed. And the reason for that is you're when you shut your eyes You're you're actually shutting down a little bit of your your brain function, your visual brain function. So when you think of something, you go, Oh, let me think about that people close their eyes, or people close their eyes and they smell wine or they close their eyes and they taste that chocolate mousse. It's Not the imagination that you can taste chocolate better, they really can taste chocolate better. And the reason is, is because when your eyes are closed, a little bit more energy in your brain is dedicated towards that sense. It's also true for affection. The reason we close our eyes during a hug or during a kiss is because you want to drink in the moment of that hug or that kiss you want to fully feel that emotion. And so people that fake lust, or excuse me, they're lustful, but they faking love, they won't do that. So you want to differentiate what is sexual versus what is affectionate. The affection is the thing that stays in the affection is really the thing that tells you whether this person really loves you or not.

Entertainer Alexis Fawx

From films and fetish work to cannabis, comedy and coffee, Alexis Fawx is an all-around entertainer and entrepreneur. We talk award-winning sex work, interesting foot fetish requests and more. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Birthdays.

Alexis Fawx: 01:46ish

Pointless: 23:55ish

Top 5: 39:12ish

www.alexisfawxlive.com  (Alexis Fawx Website)

www.twitter.com/alexisfawx  (Alexis Fawx Twitter)

www.instagram.com/alexisfawxlive (Alexis Fawx Instagram)

www.highasfawxshow.com (Alexis Fawx Podcast)

https://feetfinder.com/userProfile/alexisfawx (Alexis Fawx Foot Fetish Site)

http://www.linktr.ee/AlexisFawx (All Alexis Fawx Links and Websites)

Interview with Alexis Fawx

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, a little bit of everything plus birthdays.

Alexis Fawx 0:21

There's armpit fetishes there's cheese fetishes there I mean I remember when I first started webcaming and there was this guy he took everybody to private just to watch him eat cheese or watch no he wanted to watch you eat cheese it got me healthy it got me healthy mind body and spirit like 100 million times percent. And I love where I am now and I have the industry to thank for that because it's given me that opportunity to take the time I love growing cannabis especially like popping that from seed I have the reason why I like growing cannabis is because it's such a if you plant really communicates with you you know when needs water you know when it needs nutrients.

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us if you get a chance like download Subscribe, Share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is Alexis box. And while she's most famous for being an adult films, which is fascinating. She's also involved in so many interesting things. Everything from fetish work, to cannabis, coffee, beer, podcast, variety shows travel, so many things that for the first time I didn't really even know where to start. So I picked what to me was the most recent thing. Foot fetishes you've been doing adult films for a while but what made you transition into the foot fetish aspect of it

Alexis Fawx 1:51

I wouldn't say that it's dropping off it's just expanding what I already do. You know it was just an opportunity to be on a foot site so I took it because I believe in having multiple streams of income and not concentrating on just one site. So feet a F is just another is just safer work foot site makes it super easy. I can take pictures all day at my feet and send it up and make little albums of it

Nick VinZant 2:12

when you go into the different fetishes is like the foot fetish different than another fetish or are they all kind of the same and in a different way if that makes any sense.

Alexis Fawx 2:21

Well I mean you're gonna use your feet in different ways and like when you do customs you are getting really that individual person's like fetish so they may be like I only want to see your soles I want them dirty wear a skirt with it or you know or be nude or this or that and then the next person may be ordering another foot fetish and say you know, I would like for you to be more on your toes or you know, everybody's different and you could get down to the very simple incurrence or you know little intricate details you know, I would like to only have you wear red and have your toes painted this color and it you know, people I have long toes, my toes you know, so I get a lot of requests for that. So I've learned how to move those in ways that are really interesting and intricate for those people that like that that ish, but like any fetish that I I have a lot of requests for I you know, research to make sure like okay, like, what are the terms? What are what are the phrases that people may like or really into and I just try to take note of all those different things, because you're going to hit a lot of people with those. Does that make sense?

Nick VinZant 3:27

So you would like you didn't necessarily start out as this is just like an avenue that you had like, Hey, I'm doing this so I'm going to do this too.

Alexis Fawx 3:34

Once you get into adult work, like you You gain fans and fans are gonna tell you what they like and foot fetish is a very popular fetish. I guess I'm a hustler in a sense, like, you know, hey, if they want to offer me a site to do something, and it's it's you know, it's I'm already kind of doing it. It just makes sense to do it. But yeah, I mean, you could have there's armpit fetishes. There's cheese fetishes there. I mean, I remember when I first started webcaming and there was this guy he took everybody to private just to watch him eat cheese or watch No, he wanted to watch you eat cheese. So it's like do you eat cheese in the refrigerator and be like yeah, he was like Okay, I'll take it a private and like it's like a one line webcast. Are you familiar with like webcam? Yeah, yeah, we are on webcam. Yeah, I have a block of Swiss and you'd be like oh go get it. I'll take it into private we'll eat cheese. Okay. And like yeah, you can have someone you know literally they're paying per minute to watch you eat cheese or or put lotion on your feet if it's the foot fetish or you know there's also you can you know, it depending on what you can also use a toy and pretend that toy and it's just like, almost like you're doing jerk off instructions, but with your feet. It's you know, it's just kind of all internet intermingled.

Nick VinZant 4:49

I keep thinking about the cheese guy with a specific comment. I was gonna

Alexis Fawx 4:53

have nightmares about that. Just think about cheddar cheese. There's somebody staring at you while you eat some cheese. For like 30 for 30 for 30 minutes just eat cheese

Nick VinZant 5:05

was it was it specific kind like he felt differently about cheddar than he did about Swiss or something? It was just the

Alexis Fawx 5:11

fact of eating cheese I got some cheese right here but to give you the visual

Nick VinZant 5:18

I'm alright I'm alright you

Alexis Fawx 5:21

know and smoking fetish I mean that's another one that you know people would like to Hey geez I don't smoke cigarettes I smoke weed but I don't smoke cigarettes. But first of all I'm smoking fetish people you know, it has to be a certain type of cigarette you know what I mean? So they have all that but I really only like the Marvel 1000s or whatever the fuck they're called. And I'm like no, I don't smoke that but if you want me to roll a joint or a blind I'm cool with that. But at least I'll have some fun in the meantime I'm not going to totally destroy my lungs with a bunch of chemicals I don't understand

Nick VinZant 5:47

getting into the more kind of general questions so you know you were in the Air Force How did you get how'd you get started in the industry

Alexis Fawx 5:54

I was in the Air Force A long time ago did that to get out of my small town to move around to have experience to start living life been to college went to school have a degree in physiological psychology specialization or anatomy was working you know in the nine to five bullshit Jobs was miserable and hold off and quit everything and I was living in my Miami Florida at the time. So I was like Oh shit, maybe I should get a job like after six months or something like that. And Craigslist had a ad to be an extra on Dancing bear and I'm a free spirit. I've had a lot of sex I don't like I'm pretty open but all my shit. And I'm like, Oh, I love porn to be an extra that'd be kind of cool to watch people fuck or whatever. So I went in I was going down just to be an extra in here like they needed extra girls to do blow jobs that day and I was like fuck yeah all right, I just raised my hand I was like yeah, I can get paid that much for a blowjob. Lucky I'll do it. And I did it and the next day I was booked for a boy girl and I had a name and everything in history has been written

Nick VinZant 6:58

Did you ever regret it at any point?

Alexis Fawx 7:00

No, never I have never regretted my decisions.

Nick VinZant 7:03

What are you were you surprised kind of when it when it happened? Like how quickly the transition was made.

Alexis Fawx 7:11

You know I think when you're in it you're not really noticing the transition or like like holy shit this is really becoming a career I think like you know you just dive into it and you get into it you start doing it and I even like it feels like I guess like I don't know I'm still surprised today like I still you know when fans come up to me and they recognize me It still feels like the vote like oh my god they know who I am like it's still like wow, I'm still that it shows that personality of like a small town Pennsylvania girl, you know, like, it's never gonna leave me But yeah, it's been a hell of it's been a great career I am so happy and I'm so happy that I did say yes for that opportunity because it gave me a lot of freedom and the freedom that has given me is the time and when you have freedom time to be able to do the things that you want to do and create your own schedule, you become a lot happier person, you're no longer working for somebody else's dreams you can start working for your own dreams and now you're making the money to do so. So it almost like completely changed my life for the better. I was probably not in the best spot and mentally physically or emotionally or spiritually at that time and like seeing yourself on camera Twitter research starting out noticing how people hang on to your every word. Like it just made me think well if I'm going to be on this I'm going to be in this and people are going to see me Follow me Do whatever then I am going to get healthy I'm going to project a healthy image and not just project it and just pretend it but actually be it and be consistent and those actions you know then this is gonna be a great career and business decision and it has and that's how I've just always approached it is you know, it got me healthy it got me healthy mind body and spirit like 100 million times percent. And I love where I am now and I have the industry to thank for that because it's given me that opportunity to take the time for yourself love self care, and do those things in the passions that really really drive my soul and keep my soul on fire. Like I've been able to start different businesses I'm able to travel I'm able to make to say you know what, I'm gonna go do this today. I'm gonna go shoot my bow and arrow in the fucking desert. I'm gonna go do that. And I know I'm rarely gonna go do to the desert and go shoot my bow and arrow. I said it I'm gonna go do it.

Nick VinZant 9:18

Yeah, the thing that I've always wondered about people who are in adult films, it's like what's your what's what's your life? Like? Because the preconceived notion that I have and right we all know what preconceived notions are like, you go to a film set. You have sex on camera, and then it's parties at night like just this crazy lifestyle. This is what I'm imagining. So correct me where I'm wrong like what's what's yours your average adult actresses life really like?

Alexis Fawx 9:47

Again, I will only speak from my personal Yeah, I can only speak from my own personal and how I how I control and I will never speak on other people's lives and make generalizations on other people. However, for myself and for a lot of people that I consider friends in the industry because usual usually flock to those that are very much alike or that inspire right try to flock to those that inspire me that are smart intelligent and they're moving forward with our lives in many directions I don't go out and party I actually ever since I got into the industry I never was I've never been that person like oh yeah let's go party and you don't go party after set you're exhausted you know you're tired you may have a shoot the next day you may have an eight o'clock call time you may have been on set for 12 hours maybe you're working a feature you have you know millions and other things to think about other than going out and doing parties and you know, we I don't have onset romances I don't really know anybody who does not that I would give a shit to tell their story anyway. It's just you know, I mean it's just it's I think the preconceived ideas are always funny because you guys get that from movies that you've seen you think about the 70s and I'm gonna say that maybe it hasn't happened or doesn't happen but it's never happened with me. I don't know and it's not something I think happens on anywhere regular at all it's just like if you go to an industry party is like an avian party so my thing for any party because I'm not a party girl I'm an introvert I like my little home base. I go I do about one I could do about 90 minutes make me shake all the hands I need to shake and I get the fuck out of there and go eat food. But that's me and it's not that we just shoot on camera we're shooting our own content we're writing our own content we are we're planning our lives we are you know I have a coffee business a podcast a comedy show you know I'm making a wine this year I did a beer I'm doing my second beer club you know, I just shot content yesterday I was just shooting a calendar all last week which was about 14 different looks covering my being you know, like whatever, which is long days that's 1214 hour days people don't realize and then like I have to sit here and I get into my computer and I will spend all day on my computer probably the next couple days just catching up on my DMS on all the different private sites that I have you know the subscription site so the only fans is easy Plus, it's not like we just sit around be like get a call me like hey, do you wanna fuck so and so we got cameras on it doesn't happen that way.

Nick VinZant 12:08

Do you have to kind of strike while the iron is hot? I mean, you've had a long career. But is Is anybody in the industry? Is the clock kind of ticking on them?

Alexis Fawx 12:16

I don't really look at that way. I mean, I think like I don't have any clock ticking. I just like to do I love what I do. So why not do it until I don't want to do more.

Nick VinZant 12:29

Okay, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, let's do it. How much does acting matter? Or how much like acting would you say you're doing in a scene? Or is that that's really how you're feeling in the moment

Alexis Fawx 12:43

you know, it depends on the scene and your scene partners you know like luckily I've been in and I work a lot with the same individuals so we know our we know what we're doing and so that kind of we just have fun at that point because we know what to do we know where the cameras are there is it you know that's not really accurate we're just having a really good time and enjoying it acting part you know is more in the dialogue and things of that nature. Some people you know you may have never worked with before and you know the biggest thing you want to create some chemistry so that you the viewer is going to get into that you know the chemistry of the past like whatever you guys see on another side

Nick VinZant 13:25

are you generally doing scenes with people that like in if this wasn't your job like oh yeah I would probably do this with this person if the camera wasn't here

Alexis Fawx 13:35

oh no I'm not match with anybody that like I don't date in the industry or anything like that. I don't even look at it that way I just this is a person I work with. I told him look at it like I really don't I don't look at any single person whether it's female or male and thought I would date you outside of this I never I'd never never crossed my mind I don't think that way these are these are actresses and actors that I work with I have a note like total respect for them and I don't put them in that I don't put them in my imagination like that

Nick VinZant 14:03

hardest kind of scene to do.

Alexis Fawx 14:07

Hardest kind of scene for me for me to do. It's any scene that's really late in the night and I haven't been able to eat and we have any more Angel NDP are getting pretty easy. That means I don't know Joe, was my hardest thing. Um, hardest things to do. It's just maybe I think the hardest time I ever have is like sometimes when maybe. I don't know like maybe when the person maybe when people are things just are prepared. But I mean like things things don't really happen really anymore. You know, it was a lot harder when I was you know, newer in the industry, maybe I don't know that.

Nick VinZant 14:51

Things people want you to do but you won't like most frequent requests

Alexis Fawx 15:00

Like I mean, my boundaries are pretty just basic like I'm not going to like obviously I'm not going to do any kind of. I'm just not comfortable doing any type of medical Dom or anything that involves body like feces. Like really just I'm not into gross things I consider girls that's uh you know, I don't I don't know there's just it just I mean the things that I wouldn't do or just I think common sense shit like I don't even really like to answer those questions because it's like I'm not gonna sit here and name I don't even like see Yeah, I'm just there's just things that you wouldn't do I probably wouldn't do it like, I don't know. Yeah, just common sense stuff I don't do like there's there's certain words or certain not going to vomit I'm not going to you know, like there's just there's things that you could ask that I'm just like, no not gonna vomit. Oh, I don't write my name on boards or my body i don't i think that's that's just not me. I'm not going to do that. A lot of times you get asked like, Hey, can you write my Can you write your name on a piece of paper or you know this or that I don't do that because they can actually literally in Photoshop take that out and put something else in they can? And I just don't want to play with that. You know what I mean? I'm like, I know and also i really i to me, I don't know why I feel this way but I am not writing another person's name on my body. I don't have any names on my body and it's not gonna gonna happen. It just to me is No.

Nick VinZant 16:25

Are those kinds of requests are they frequent? Or do you just like get them where you get them sporadically? Favorite, your favorite type of scene?

Alexis Fawx 16:33

My favorite type of scene? I don't really pick favorites. I don't really do this kind of stuff. Because every scene can be great. I like I really don't have like I don't really don't pick favorites. I don't pick favorite male actors or female actors. I don't pick this thing over that thing. I really kind of take x age experience for what it is. And it's not really in my interest or I care to pick favorites of any sort. I enjoyed the PC and I enjoy ALCS I enjoyed my boy girl scenes I just simple that scenes, girl girl scenes. Dialogue days, it doesn't. I don't really have a favorite.

Nick VinZant 17:19

Just kind of whatever's

Alexis Fawx 17:21

whatever. Like the variety that I'm able to have at work like it's not like I don't go to their office and open open up the same book every day.

Nick VinZant 17:28

What is your personal favorite porn title? Like the title of a film or a scene that you didn't like? That's a pretty good title.

Alexis Fawx 17:37

Okay, well, I actually wrote a few that are my favorites. I will pick those because I wrote them and imagine them and and then pitch them to to mind geek, actually, I did unbound. And I did the voyer next door. And those were my favorite titles, because those were things that I came up with and they produced and they also came up for nomination for awards. So yeah, they did really well.

Nick VinZant 18:03

pretty popular. When people kind of recognize you out in public, do they usually come like right up and introduce themselves? Or say, Hey, I know who you are.

Alexis Fawx 18:12

It would depend on the person. I mean, when he recognized someone that you saw in the porn industry, would you walk up to them? Or would you be shy about it? Because it's really an individual. You might stare you might look you might, you'll do like the look back like I think I know you or that you can always tell the glands you can always tell in the eyes and it really does individual base some people feel very confident and they'll come up and ask for a hug or a pitcher. Usually as a pitcher. I'm not really into like hugging and kissing. I don't really like that. Um, but you know, I don't mind put my arm around somebody hugs All right, sometimes, but no, don't ask me because we have my face. That's not not allowed. Um, and then there's, you know, you have the individual like, I think I know you from somewhere and I'm like, Yeah, probably internet. I love it also, like whenever they say. Yeah, but I was like, Oh, yeah, that's where I know you. But I don't really watch that much. I'm like, I'm one person you can be honest about if you want to know what Tell me watch porn 24 hours, seven days a week, I could care less like that's that's you. That's awesome. You know, kudos. So it really just depends on the person. People people know that I'm very friendly and very approachable. And I love getting my picture taken with fans. I think that's the coolest thing ever. I'm still like, like I said before, you know, it still feels like the first time that when someone says hey, how can I get a picture with you? It's like, cool. Yeah, of course.

Nick VinZant 19:39

Okay, on a scale of one to 10 with one being like somebody you've nobody's ever heard of. And 10 being the most famous people that you can imagine right? Like a list celebrities, etc. At what level would you say is the most famous person that has tried to get into your DMS

Alexis Fawx 19:58

I don't look at my DMS If you at all I don't look at my DMS on any free public social media at all. So if there's anybody sitting in there I'm never going to read it never going to answer it. If you want to get my dm then you would definitely have to subscribe to me and if there's people or celebrities that are subscribed to me and stuff like that, that's their business not mine and I would also never

Nick VinZant 20:20

say what's your best gardening tip?

Alexis Fawx 20:23

Oh yeah, somebody that knows I'm a gardener that's kudos to your fan on that one. Or to your audience on that yes, I garden indoor and outdoor I love growing cannabis. Especially I like popping up from seed I've The reason why I like growing cannabis is because it's such a key plant really communicates with you you know when needs water you know when it needs nutrients you just have to watch it and look at it in such a good plan to learn from but I will grow anything I've men's just noticed my artichokes actually coming back through the weather's nice wenli here in Vegas. I've got a hydroponics garden going in my living or my plant room which is a debit tomato plants was going wild oregano I love growing a lot of my own herbs and stuff because I like to make my own teas but I literally if I can if I get a seat I'll try to grow it I love gardening

Nick VinZant 21:18

your favorite marijuana right now

Alexis Fawx 21:23

favorite I guess probably favorite strains with their asking

Nick VinZant 21:27

I think that's mean yeah yeah well

Alexis Fawx 21:32

yeah it's funny and they all have such weird names anymore like you know I just people give me a lot of weed so I smoke when I'm given

Nick VinZant 21:44

just because that's

Alexis Fawx 21:47

where it kind of goes along with the podcast and the comedy show because it is cannabis friendly and so people would like to get you know me promote them on my show or have them I don't have me try it out promote their item but as far as strains go like I've just I don't even pay attention really anymore I kind of like pay attention to say okay, I look at the terpenes and I look at like what I've been told and and kind of go by that like okay well I wouldn't want this to make me a little bit more hungry or I want this to make me a little more tired or or depends if I'm being creative I might you know want to go more to diva dominant and that's more just I don't know there's I don't really, as far as naming strains I went through like a Sunday driver. That was my favorite for a while I went through a whole kick of Sunday driver. But and then there's jack and it was like old school.

Nick VinZant 22:36

Ah, that's pretty much all the questions I got is are kind of anything that you think we missed, or what's coming up next for you.

Alexis Fawx 22:43

Um, well, I mean, definitely go out and buy my coffee Hi, AF coffee calm. We're collabing again with the another beer astronomy l works here in Vegas. We're tapping the keg on October 16 at corys, which I'm really excited about. But yeah, and our first beer went did so well. We're going to be canning it. So my coffee is going to be on part of a can of beer, which is really neat. I never thought that was going to happen. But it did. I don't know like like i said i'm My dream is just keep popping up and coming true. So I'm pretty darn happy. Yeah, and check out our podcast

Freestyle Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs

The first time he jumped he was hooked. Now, Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs travels the world looking for 100-foot cliffs and a rush of adrenaline. We talk freestyle cliff jumping, conquering fear and cannonballs. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Halloween Songs.

Jay Briggs: 01:26ish

Pointless: 27:06

Top 5: 40:52ish

https://www.instagram.com/brggsy (Jay Briggs Instagram)

https://www.facebook.com/brggsy (Jay Briggs Facebook)

https://www.tiktok.com/@brggsy? (Jay Briggs TikTok)

Interview with Cliff Jumper Jay Briggs

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, freestyle cliff jumping and Halloween songs.

Jay Briggs 0:22

After I jumped like the first couple times, I was like, holy shit. This is crazy. Like this is insane. I kind of want to go higher. I'm always scared. Everybody's always scared. So it was a long way down and you're excited. You're scared and if you're not scared, you're probably there's something wrong. Oh, you have to. You can't just do a cannonball and not tell anybody like you're screaming Cannonball and it's your job. But

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us if you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I think that pretty much everybody at some point in their life has jumped off something fairly high into water. Our first guest though, takes that to an entirely different level. He's been around the world jumping off cliffs, sometimes more than 100 feet high. And doing some just amazing tricks in the process. This is freestyle Cliff jumper j Briggs How did you get into it? And what I mean by that is like when did you really get hooked? Not like the first time you went but like man this is my thing.

Jay Briggs 1:35

I know you said not the first time but kind of the first time was actually when I was like whoa this is super sick because like I was I've always been an athlete like my whole life like after high school and sports and it like I was just went to a community college so I would got really into like competitive gaming like in would go to tournaments and stuff like that and just like to compete like that competitive edge to make you feel like athletes still. But when I was like 22 I bought a GoPro and I was like I gotta do something cool. It's like I'll figure it out. And I saw some random girl on my Instagram that I went to high school with she posted that she was like near these cliffs. Oh, that's really cool. Next weekend I drove two and a half hours up there with a couple friends and we are like the edge of a 20 foot cliff it's like whoa this is huge but in hindsight right now that's nothing like I would do it nice clothes, whatever. But after I jumped like the first couple times I was like holy shit. This is crazy. But this is insane. I kind of want to go higher and so literally I was hooked like and from then on when I was 22 so seven years ago I every like I go a little bit higher. Like as soon as I get home like cool that's a little bit higher. Where can I go? What's cool, what's better let's whatever and I immediately start doing that and then I I have an effect.

Nick VinZant 2:46

What was the Why did you get hooked though? What was it about it?

Jay Briggs 2:49

It was something super new because like once you started to get kind of like higher and it's like it's almost like like even when it's 20 feet like essentially it's like it's almost like the rest of your life super adrenaline Holy shit. And you think about it you're like okay, maybe I shouldn't have done that 20 feet not so much but when you get up to higher stuff like 60 7080 100 100 plus feet you know you really hurt yourself. So it was like I got really hooked because it was so exhilarating it's like almost like you're not supposed to do it doesn't mean you can't why not but it like it was just such a like an adrenaline rush and you're just like I need to do that again. And then like but once you do 20 feet like 20 times okay that's there's no more adrenaline here so you kind of have to go for higher you got to go for bigger you got to do different tricks and so it just became an obsession to chase that that feeling of just something that not too many people get to do so

Nick VinZant 3:41

like when does it become dangerous? At what height Are you like? Okay, now now we got to stop messing around for me

Jay Briggs 3:49

specifically. It's like 60 feet where I'm like I should probably be a little bit more careful. But like it depends on your skill level likes like an art like an average viewer of yours specifically like who doesn't do this very often like 15 feets kind of a big deal because like you I mean it's not a huge deal but like you can still hurt yourself like a lot of people when they do it they like land with their arms all out and they slap their arms moved on you know like they are like when they jump and they plug their nose and they start leaning back and then on the back for 15 feet that's gonna hurt so like for me who's somebody who's like super controlled and a lot of my friends are too you know, like 50 feet 60 feet or like yeah, if I flop it's gonna suck but like now I should probably take a little bit more serious and make sure I don't mess anything up. Like when

Nick VinZant 4:33

I think of flopping I'm thinking like a belly flop and I would imagine that that would kill you

Jay Briggs 4:37

now. I've so when I was in Slovenia about a month ago, so there's there's this hotel on the side of a river that let us put a trampoline on our balcony and jump off the the trampoline off their balcony into the river and that was like 40 feet below, right? I flopped pretty bad straight to my back doing a trick I've never tried before and was spitting up loves About a day, so you're not going to die. But it's like I've watched a girl break back from 40 feet. And because she like she landed in like seating position and just compressed her spine, right? If you don't do it right, if your body's not, if you haven't trained for it or whatever, it's gonna suck. I've, I've seen people flop from over 100 feet, and they come out totally unscathed. I've seen people flop from 40 feet and break the back it, it all depends on everything, right? It depends how you landed depends on what kind of water you're in, like, if you're in quarry water out in Vermont, where it's flat, it's gonna hurt a lot more if you land into into, like the froth of a waterfall is like the waterfalls,

Nick VinZant 5:38

I guess, you know, the big, the kind of the question that that I would have is, you're gonna push it, you can push it? How do you know? How do you keep yourself from pushing it too far.

Jay Briggs 5:49

It's all internal. Like, there's a lot of cliff diving in cliff jumping is visualization, like when you start to get up to these high cliffs and high jumps and stuff like that. Or even if it's not even like as high, but it's like something that's like, either kind of sketchy or unique, or whatever it may be like, specifically, there's a place in NorCal, I'm not going to disclose the name, but there used to be a crane that would go over the water. It's like an old gold mining claim that had a crane. And people jump off at about 80 feet. And at that time, I've jumped over 80 feet multiple times, but I've been back to that place like four times. And every time I got up there, like I just wasn't feeling correct. I couldn't like I couldn't visualize what I was going to do safely. Like, every time like I went through my head, like what trick I was gonna do, like something would go wrong, and my hands on my pool of time to back down. So a lot of the times it's just visualization. It's how you feel that day, there's been times where I've backed down from jumps that are like 40 feet, so I'm just like, you're not feeling it right now. If something feels off, I'm gonna step back. Because a lot of the times if you push back then you're like, Yeah, I don't really feel that good. But I'm just gonna do it anyway, like that. So it's a lot of just mental in your, in your head, how you feel on that day is kind of where you kind of start and stop. Well, at least for me.

Nick VinZant 7:02

So it's not one of those things where like, Oh, yeah, I'm a little scared. But I got to push through this. It's like, oh, if I don't feel it,

Jay Briggs 7:08

come back now. Cuz I'm always scared. Everybody's always scared. I mean, there's times where I'm at like a 40 foot cliff, not really that scared. But like, even when you're at like 100 feet, it's always scary, right? So it's like, a long way down, and you're excited, you're scared. And if you're not scared, you're probably there's something wrong. Because you need to be afraid of what you're doing when it comes to cliff jumping like this, like, and especially when we're up 100 plus feet, which we do all the time, it's, you need to be scared, it's good to keep yourself in check. Knowing that like, even though you're scared, like, you know, your body's gonna take care of it type of thing. being scared is normal. But if you're like, I'm not visualizing, right, I'm not feeling what's going on right now. I'm gonna just step back.

Nick VinZant 7:49

So is there a special way that you're landing? Or am I learning the same way, if I go off a diving board and my buddy's backyard,

Jay Briggs 7:57

when it comes to stuff like what we do, it's Yeah, it's fee first. You can either land a little bit forward, and like, it depends on how high the jump is, obviously. But say you're like 80 plus feet, you land a little bit forward, that can hit you in the jaw and knock you out. If you don't do it correctly, it's happened, I've seen it happen. Or if you land a little bit back, you can slap the back of your head, or you can slap and you can really hurt your spine if you land kind of like with your butt out. So it's like it's always you need you try to be straight up and down every job.

Nick VinZant 8:26

Really? Yeah. So what what kind of in the community is more impressive to do like a trick off a 40 foot jump? Or to just go higher? What's kind of the main thing that people are trying to do?

Jay Briggs 8:37

It's, you know, that's an interesting question, because it's both right. You want to do tricks from the highest you can but also what think what people don't understand doing flips off a high cliff is way easier than just straight jumping from a hot because the thing about jumping just straight is horrifying. And I'm telling you every flip jumper in the world will tell you jumping straight is so much scarier than doing the flip because like when I'm doing a flip my mind's occupied. I'm thinking about stuff where my feet whereas my body, where's the water, looking at stuff. And I'm thinking the whole time, right? So by the time I see the water, my cool, I got like, milliseconds and cool, I'm done. Cool. Everything's great, right? But if I straight jump, I'm just staring at the water the entire time, and it feels like it's twice as high because I jumped off like a 60 foot or a straight jump a few months ago when we were in Oregon. And just because the takeoff is super slippery, like I couldn't get my footing right to do the trick I wanted like it just didn't feel comfortable. So I straight jumped in. And it felt it was only 60 feet and I've jumped it like multiple times before but it felt like it was like 200 feet tall and like I got butterflies because just straight jumping is terrifying compared to doing flips.

Nick VinZant 9:50

I never would have thought that.

Jay Briggs 9:51

Yeah, most people think it's the opposite. Like isn't doing trip. No, it's way easier. It's way funner being doing straight jumps is stressful. I don't know I hate they do it sometimes to scare myself like we do it sometimes just to like, let's let's, let's freak ourselves out Well, let's just do it straight down.

Nick VinZant 10:08

I always remember you know, like when you because you know, you jump off something and you jump off something and it's pretty high, and then you jump off something else and you get like that where you really get going like oh, yes hi.

Jay Briggs 10:21

Yeah right because it happens a lot like I've definitely experienced a few times it's it's what's called flow state my, my roommate Nick actually made a flow state documentary about cooking up in and it's an hour and a half feature length film on YouTube, right? And it's I describe it in that as well. But it's like when you're in the flow state, your mind is just in this in the zone essentially right? And you shut everything off and there's times where you go for these big jumps. And it's completely silent until you hit the water. And it's like you don't hear anything. You don't hear people cheering you don't hear the rushing of the waterfall or anything. And the only thing you hear right when you hit the water Okay, we're good we're clear back in the back to normal we're good and then you come up and you're excited whenever like during the jump like it's kind of when fear shuts off as soon as you step off the cliff because you're you're you're already past it you've done the hard part. Now it's just getting to the bottom safely it gets you everything shipped off it's silent. It's kind of crazy

Nick VinZant 11:18

how much like how much of a depth of water do you need

Jay Briggs 11:23

for something big like that we aimed like for a minimum of 15 feet we we've jumped off stuff more shallow and it's sketchy we jumped off this 80 foot cliff once into about like eight or nine feet of water and horrible idea we did it anyways stupid it was like when we were really young into the end of the scene and it was it was stupid and when you hit and you're just laying down on the bottom in the sand because you're you've got as far as you could it's not good but you so you aim for about 15 feet that gives you a good enough stopping point because even if you do Touch bottom likely you won't touch it

Nick VinZant 11:56

hard. Yeah,

Jay Briggs 11:58

yeah and a lot of the times like with us we wear shoes or not anymore really barefoot mostly but you wear a lot of wetsuits and stuff when it when you come to high heights like that because it's a it's a safety thing. Because say you were to hurt yourself, you float back up the top if you're unconscious if you're in a wetsuit, you'll float to the top because they're super buoyant. So we wear those on big ones in case you hurt yourself and you need essentially assistance right? So wetsuits really slowly down in terms of in terms of like how deep the water

Nick VinZant 12:29

I was wondering about that because I saw some of your Instagram videos and everybody was wearing a wetsuit and I just assumed the water was cold and I kind of was I kind of thought like these guys are so tough but they're worried about some cold water

Jay Briggs 12:41

never for cold water unless we're doing like winter jumping and we do winter jumping when it's like snowing right and it's then you're like wetsuit because it's cold type of thing but usually when we get to high heights we wear a wetsuit strictly for safety factors

Nick VinZant 12:54

is it when you look at it like is it hard to find good places to be able to jump are they just everywhere

Jay Briggs 13:01

depends on how creative you are also like when we went to Slovenia right they don't have a ton of jumping spots but if you know people and you can jump off their their hotel balconies or if you find it insanely cool bridge to jump off the yachts sweet right? But if you don't know what you're looking forwards Yeah, it's really hard. And if you don't know what you're looking for, you don't know like what to look for. Like in the beginning when it comes to like how shear the cliff is like, does the water like do you read something online that says like, no, it's a really deep pool. Whatever. If if you know what you're looking for, it's pretty easy, but it's it's not if you don't know what you're doing.

Nick VinZant 13:37

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Jay Briggs 13:39

Yeah, let's get into the weird one. Let's do it.

Nick VinZant 13:41

Better better jump. Cannonball er can opener.

Jay Briggs 13:46

Can I tell you a funny story about a can opener? Yeah, we're so we're in this place in North Cal and we're at this spot. And this guy was drunk and just clipped up and which is a horrible mix. Right? And he's there and he goes, I'm gonna go to the 60 footer and do a can opener. I'm like, absolutely don't do that. One you've been drinking too. As soon as you reach for your knee, all your weights going to go back and you're going to flop you're gonna really hurt yourself like 60 feets, like no joke. And he goes, Okay, okay, I won't do it. He goes up there. He does it anyway, he lands flat on the back ruptures his frickin spleen. And that's it. And the funny thing is that this spot is right behind the hospital. Like about two miles behind the hospital, so we hiked to the dang hospital. Like, I frickin hate. can openers after that. So Cannonball is the straight answer for me.

Nick VinZant 14:33

Do you have to I feel like you have to call it out though. Oh, you have to?

Jay Briggs 14:38

You can't just do a cannonball and not tell anybody like you're screaming Cannonball and it's your job like

Nick VinZant 14:44

that's the way to do it. Um, easiest trick that looks hard. Hardest trick that looks easy.

Jay Briggs 14:53

Man. that's a that's a difficult question. I feel like specifically for me There's a lot of tricks that are are really easy to like my friends that do the like cliff jumping are also like skiers professional skiers and they'll do stuff like off access and what I mean by that is like you can either do a front flip or a backflip or twist whatever, but they'll kind of go like shoulder over knee type stuff. And it just it turns your body in a way that like I can't understand so sometimes they look really easy and I can't even touch them. I can't do it. So that's the hardest trick that looks easy but the easiest trick that looks or I want to say it's a gainer right it's not something crazy but that's what I do all the time and it looks really easy but like no it looks hard I guess because like you're running forwards you're going backwards everybody always like Aren't you afraid of hitting your head on the cliff? never the case because

Nick VinZant 15:48

I mean if you do it yeah you're way past it by that

Jay Briggs 15:51

right but like people always ask them are you ever hit your head on the cliff or anything? It looks hard, I guess to some people but it's pretty easy and that's the one I've done my entire coaching career that's like I do it off every single Cliff but it's just my favorite.

Nick VinZant 16:07

Our most Cliff jumpers actually good divers and I think the person means by like Could you go competed? USA Swimming trials or something? Absolutely

Jay Briggs 16:16

not. Almost none of us are capable of that. We even really classify ourselves as freestyle Cliff jumpers versus like classically trained divers because you have like these Red Bull events that are everybody's toes pointed. Everybody's judged on every little maneuver, right? But freestyle is a totally different thing in terms of like, you're doing stuff off access. You're doing you're doing stuff with more steez and more layout where they're how many flips how many twists? How straight can you be so we would fail hardcore because we're not following their guidelines at all. Right? They want to see how straight and poised you could be or as freestyle like us, they want to see how cool how sick how different Can you be,

Nick VinZant 16:59

but is the like, do you have that same level of body control?

Jay Briggs 17:04

I'd say me specifically I don't think so. But there's a few people this in this community that can absolutely let would be able to I feel take them on in terms of having body control. Like there's some people like grab a wall read heart read chase rainford, right and be that have ultimate body control that can do any flip any twist and compete with the best of them, but it's gonna look way different. Even though the trick is the same. Like say you go for a double half, right, which is one front flip. And then another front flip with a half twist, right? Having somebody who does a freestyle background versus somebody who is a classically trained background, it would make it an entirely different look. It's It's so it's really interesting,

Nick VinZant 17:46

best type of rock to jump off of

Jay Briggs 17:50

something with a waterfall that's the best one not a rock specifically, like I don't know, I'm not a geologist, but anything where there's a waterfall next to you and you're jumping like into the froth of the water that's the best

Nick VinZant 18:01

best cliff jumping spot in the US best in the world.

Jay Briggs 18:05

I'm gonna say this because it's already blown up otherwise I typically keep these to myself. There's a whole thing with the internet that if you put if you geotag a spot like on Instagram it like especially when you have a lot of followers it gets blown out blown out of proportion the wrong people go there, they literally ruin it to get shut down. So it's like a lot of jamming you kind of keep it to yourself, but this one's already heavily regulated. Have a su by it's the Indian Reservation in the middle of the Grand Canyon. We went there I went back there was 2016 only when we left with 150 people it was this insane event that we went with and the water was beautiful we stayed down the Grand Canyon for five four or five days and jumped everything there with like the world's greatest projectors at the time and I would consider that one of the greatest programming places in the world and in the United States it's incredible it's I have tickets to go back next year they sell out at bid within the first half hour every year that they're on sale and they're it's an incredible place.

Nick VinZant 19:06

Is it just because of like what what is it about it is it I mean obviously it's a beautiful area.

Jay Briggs 19:11

There's there's so many factors for me that the this that like get me there, like for one the sheer beauty you have one you're in the middle of the Grand Canyon, right you have these incredible rock orange rock formations, and then the water is this like Gatorade blue color because of the minerals that are in it. So it provides for an incredible landscape. Other than that, there's cliff jumping spots anywhere from like 20 feet to 130 feet. Technically, you're not supposed to jump. Really any of that they kind of just let people do it, but they don't. They don't want anywhere near the 100 foot or in the 130 footer. We kind of do that. And then the only thing it's like, it's so fun for just vibes in general like outside of cliff jumping, right? Like there's camp spots where they're like, but like they have picnic tables in the river where you can just sit there and Eat food like while you're like waist deep in the water and it's just beautiful so it's like a lot of things like and to be fair um not a lot of people get to experience it like not the standard people that you that are going to make the 12 mile hike in and then stay there for four days and then hike 12 miles out like nobody really does that that's probably also I should have mentioned it's really difficult to get

Nick VinZant 20:21

Is it is it hard on your body? Like could you you can do do 60 footer right can you just do this all day long are you like I got one or two in me

Jay Briggs 20:31

for like 6070 footers like you could do those a few times 510 times and like be like, whatever in your body and be sore the next day like your body's had a lot it's a lot of impact right? But when it comes to stuff like 100 110 110 plus type stuff like I'm usually like a one and done person I'll just do it once I enjoyed it. I had a great time it was incredible and I probably won't do it again.

Nick VinZant 20:53

Will you be like Will you be sore the next day off of 100 foot jump

Jay Briggs 20:59

yes and no I have sometimes it just depends on how long it's been because there was a stretch of time like in like 2018 where we were jumping off like 90 to 100 footers like every other week for like five months just killing it and then so it like my body's used to that point. But if I do it for a while if I don't do it for like three months, four months, six months, and I go to jump off like a 90 foot or 100 footer like yeah

Nick VinZant 21:24

can you make a living off of this?

Jay Briggs 21:27

Yeah, you can it's really really difficult. It's you're really relying on sponsorship money is what it is you're not getting paid by some sort of cliff diving association or Red Bull to go do this stuff. It's basically what sponsors can you get and how can they help you fund your endeavors really, there's only I only know a couple people that are able to do it full time and not actually have a job.

Nick VinZant 21:55

How many times has your swimsuit come off when you hit the water

Jay Briggs 21:59

it's never came off but so the problem is is that they rip from when you hit the impact and your shorts are filled with air and they're hitting the water there's the air in the water like or feuding essentially and so I have shorts all the time that just rip up the sea aside all the time. And it's like there's been times right where I'm one time the pool can't release anymore. Luckily I have a great swimsuit sponsorship that just says they've been sending me swimsuits for the past five years. Animoto they're out of the Netherlands they're an incredible company and they're great guys and they just send me stuff a couple times a year just to fill me up on

Nick VinZant 22:36

stage. best piece of Cliff jumper lingo

Jay Briggs 22:43

oh man that's a good one. I think it's an old surfer term and we've loved to use it and it's called hit in and it's when you when you when you eat shit essentially so like dude you got towed a pit right? It's like I really enjoy like cooking. I'm trying to remember if there's any one that cliffjumper term actually I pointed right this I don't know if anybody how many people in the crypto community really know this but there's a trick that I named is called the triple hope sex really and it's funny because my girlfriend's name is hope I named after her because it's hilarious because I used to always make fiber and just every time so he's like, Oh, I'm like yeah hope so. just random so I named it randomly and it's where you do a front flip a front half to a backflip so it's three flips with one half twist right it's really difficult.

Nick VinZant 23:35

Oh I thought you were like stopping in mid air I was like how do you do the front flap and then I slept with a

Jay Briggs 23:41

half and then a backflip and then I named that the triple hope stuff so that's a piece of cliff jumping lingo that I named and a lot of people call it that and they put me like you see people do it on Instagram captions did a trip did my first trip hope to my first trip hope Saks whatever, but I find that I just want to have I'm proud of that moment and I haven't contributed an insane amount of steps in the journey community besides like helping pioneer like new spots and stuff but that's something I got that's nobody can take that away from me.

Nick VinZant 24:10

Does she appreciate that? Oh,

Jay Briggs 24:13

she's she's she's such a good sport about everything. She's She's incredible.

Nick VinZant 24:19

The other part of that is worst piece of cliff diving lingo lingo. You're like God people can't stop saying.

Jay Briggs 24:27

Worse piece of I think what I hate the most, and it's I think some of us coast jumpers do that. So there's cliff diving, right? And then you have these kids that trampled that come from trampolining into cliff diving because it's kind of like a new step up and they use like, instead of saying like, dub half or triple half, they use the terms of triples and flip this off a cliff and I can't stand it. So Mike wrong sport, man. You're in the wrong sport. You're talking trampolines. We're going to clip that we're not doing it. No trif isn't doing job pass Tripathi. We're not using your terms and I that's something like, I know it's super minor. It's not gonna like the guys it just bothers the crap.

Nick VinZant 25:10

I will say this is a person who knows nothing about it and just hearing that like, Oh, that's annoying, right isn't as you can tell. You're trying too hard, right? The lingo hasn't come naturally, you're forcing the lingo,

Jay Briggs 25:25

right. So it's a totally different community. And

Nick VinZant 25:28

I don't like what's the holy grail?

Jay Briggs 25:31

I really feel like there's not one Holy Grail. I feel like in terms of like cliff diving spots, it's I have a super high place I told you about that's, to me the most incredible place you could get to, like for cliff jumping. But in terms of like cliff jumping itself, I feel like there's no one specific thing. I feel like it's everybody trying to do something new, and create something new that's never been done, whether it's a new flip a new trick, whatever. I think that's really the drive for a lot of people just trying to get as versatile as possible.

Nick VinZant 26:01

That's pretty much all the questions we got, man. Yeah, is there anything else you think we missed or anything like that? Well, I'm

Jay Briggs 26:07

gonna leave everybody with a message. If it gets edited out, like I don't care. Take the time to travel with your friends. Because going out of the country for us, like with your, with your best friends, is some of the most like unforgettable memories. So if you're 20 to 2530, I don't care if it 45 or whatever. Like, going out of the country with your friends, and just having an insane time and doing it's just doing random stuff and not being like, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna stay in a hotel, go stayed in Airbnb with 15 of your friends and go have a frickin blast and just go out, stay out all night, burn yourself out and have hella fun, because that's the best.

Polygraph Examiner John Grogan

John Grogan knows if you’re lying. As a professional Polygraph Examiner, he’s tested everyone from infamous criminals and celebrities, to cheating spouses and lying employees. We talk lie detector tests, how to tell if someone’s lying and the only way to beat a polygraph test. Then, we countdown the Top 5 TV Shows We’d Like to Be On.

John Grogan: 01:35ish

Pointless: 21:45ish

Top 5: 37:03ish

https://www.instagram.com/liedetectorguys (John Grogan Instagram)

http://liedetectorguy.com (John Grogan Website)

Interview with Polygraph Examiner John Grogan

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. I'm coming up in this episode, the biggest lies and the best TV shows.

John Grogan 0:22

It's the best truth telling tool that's out there. It worked by looking at microscopic changes to blood, sweat and breathing as yes or no questions are answered in a specific pattern in almost every big criminal case you've heard of they have taken polygraphs and failed and that's why you didn't hear about them. There is no way to beat a polygraph now, short of bribing an examiner and people try that quite often.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest can tell if you're lying. He's been a polygraph examiner for nearly 20 years. And he's given lie detector tests to everybody from infamous criminals, to celebrities, to cheating spouses. And not only does he have some great stories about the lies he's been told, but also all of the things that I kind of thought about lie detector tests and how they worked. Not really true. This is polygraph examiner, john Grogan. The first question that I would have about polygraph ng is, does this really work?

John Grogan 1:39

In most states, you cannot become a police officer without passing a polygraph. You can't join any federal law enforcement agency without passing a polygraph. It's the best truth telling tool that's out there. Someone comes up with a better one, someday we'll all change to it.

Nick VinZant 1:56

How does it work?

John Grogan 1:59

It works by looking at microscopic changes to blood, sweat and breathing as yes or no questions are answered in a specific pattern.

Nick VinZant 2:08

So it's basically relying on the person to be nervous or anxious or something like that.

John Grogan 2:14

Well, all people are nervous taking a polygraph. That's why we surround the questions of importance, whether it be cheating in the relationship or theft at their work with questions we know they're telling the truth. So the computer has an example of what their body does at this moment, when they're sitting there mad, nervous and upset, but they're truly telling the truth.

Nick VinZant 2:36

Or I guess how accurate would it be? If I told 100 lies, it's going to catch all 100? Or it's going to catch like 95 of them. Like what kind of a polygraph

John Grogan 2:45

is limited to four questions maximum, we did more than that it would be unfocused. So that's part of why we can't use 100 question analogy.

Nick VinZant 2:57

How can we Why is it limited to four? Well,

John Grogan 3:00

all of our polygraph structure comes from the federal polygraph Academy that used your tax dollars for the last 50 years to study polygraph and try new things and modify things. And they found the longest test should be as a 10 question script with 20 seconds in between each question which then totals four minutes to get through one through to the end of the other. And by then that's when your arm is starting to hurt a little from the blood pressure cuff and maybe you're starting to think about the pain instead of the questions you're being asked.

Nick VinZant 3:38

Does it become inaccurate after after a certain amount of time?

John Grogan 3:42

Well, if they're no longer focusing on the questions, then yes,

Nick VinZant 3:47

if you're doing a polygraph test, when do you kind of get to the getting so to speak the like, when would you say like Okay, did you do it?

John Grogan 3:55

is today monday? No. 20 seconds later is today? Wednesday? Yes. 20 seconds later. Do you know who took the money? No. 20 seconds later is today friday? No. 20 seconds later. Did you take the money? Well, we're halfway through the 10 questions script.

Nick VinZant 4:16

Man, it's that fast, huh? No, there's

John Grogan 4:19

20 seconds in between each to let the body calm down from one before we hit you with another.

Nick VinZant 4:25

I guess my impersonate or my interpretation of it was like you're in there for hours with somebody just banging away at console when somebody

John Grogan 4:33

says the test is going to take an hour or two. It's three parts. The pretest is where we explain the equipment and help you develop your one to four questions. The next part, the test is only three four minute chart collections. It's fairly fast. And then the third part post test is discussing the results.

Nick VinZant 4:54

Now how much of this is kind of up to your interpret interpretation as the examiner or Kind of reading tea leaves so to speak? Or is this black and white? Yes or no.

John Grogan 5:04

Now most computer polygraphs come with computer scoring that takes that power away from you of being too easy or too hard on somebody.

Nick VinZant 5:13

So the computer scoring like how does that work?

John Grogan 5:17

It's comparing your blood sweat and breathing on something we know you're telling the truth, to what your blood, sweat and breathing get on the important question. And also on a third question, third type of question.

Nick VinZant 5:30

What's the what's the third type of question?

John Grogan 5:33

It's in what's called a C question. And it's really too involved for this effect to take a week of a polygraph school to study that third question.

Nick VinZant 5:44

Now that here's the problem. Now I'm so interested in what the third question like can you give me an example of what the third question would be?

John Grogan 5:51

Well, if I'm here, because you're accused of stealing money at your employer, and the employer wanted to write for questions they might be Do you know who took the money? Did you take the money? Do you know where the missing money is? Now? Did you help anybody take the money? That see question might also be a theft question, but from a different time in your life. It might be prior to working here. Did you ever steal any money from someone who trusted you in the federal polygraph Academy? In all the money and time they spent is found that that's a good question to ask as a third type of question during a test.

Nick VinZant 6:31

Now, Will these results do they generally hold up in court?

John Grogan 6:35

Well, I do them for immigration court, which is federal. That's where most court ones are used in federal court because the US government is the biggest users of polygraph in the world. A lot of people don't know a lot of people are getting their immigration thanks to passing a polygraph test.

Nick VinZant 6:53

I didn't know that at all. Wow. Is there any examples of a major crime, felony murder, etc, in which somebody has been convicted solely off a polygraph test?

John Grogan 7:08

Well, New Mexico for example, they allow polygraph is evidence the same as any other evidence with no special procedure. Other states, you either need both sides to agree to before the test, or have the judge override it.

Nick VinZant 7:25

When when you kind of score somebody based on whether or not they're telling the truth. Is it it's a probability like there's a 90% chance that they're lying, or 10% chance that they're lying? Or how does that work?

John Grogan 7:37

There's two levels of accuracy with a polygraph. The first is the blood sweat and breathing is for devices attached to you. That's pretty much 100%. Because it's just medical equipment, truly reading your blood sweat and breathing changes. Then the other level of accuracy is when we take the results and make a call pass or fail. And that's held to be over 90% accurate. They get the 90% to 95% is true later, other evidence appearing or confessions. They match it to what the polygraph said and 9.5 out of 10 times the polygraph had the correct answer.

Nick VinZant 8:19

Is this would you say like looking at it in terms of court cases, is this growing in its acceptance about level or declining and its acceptance in use.

John Grogan 8:31

Usually in communities where you can't become a police officer without passing one. Those are the areas where most judges allow them in court. If it's important enough of a tool to let somebody become a cop. Based on that, then it certainly should be usable for evidence and polygraph even if it was only 90% accurate. They allow other evidence in like eyewitness testimony you say it was a purple car, I say it was a brown car. Yet that's allowed in his evidence. And that's eyewitness testimony is wrong 50% of the time,

Nick VinZant 9:04

I feel like I'm going to do a really bad job framing this question. So I'm going to hope that you kind of understand what I mean by this. But can it pick up on say, lies of omission in the sense that like, Did you eat the sandwich? And no, I didn't eat the whole sandwich but I ate 70% of it. Can it kind of stuff up?

John Grogan 9:27

That's why we have to be very accurate on the questions they need to be yes or no answerable. Three to 19 words seems to be the best. And no ands ORS or commas. So for example, I might ask you Did you kill that man and you're thinking I didn't kill him the bullet I shot out and killed him. So that's why we asked did you shoot the man? Or did you shoot the gun that shot the man, you've done this before.

Nick VinZant 9:53

That makes a lot of sense now but let's say that you had somebody that wasn't as experienced in yourself. And they didn't frame that question correctly, like the way that you framed it, would it still pick up that somebody was kind of committing a lie of omission that like, Hmm, I didn't kill the guy, I just pulled the trigger and the bullet did it. If somebody who wasn't as experienced as yourself asked a question in that way, would the system still be able to tell that they were like?

John Grogan 10:24

Well, the reason it's called a lie detector, not a truth detector. An example is, there's a homeless guy that lives downstairs from my office, and he tells people, I am Jesus Christ. If we were to do a test on him, he wouldn't fail. He is not lying. Now, we're not saying he's Jesus Christ, we're saying he's not lying. He truly believes it to be true.

Nick VinZant 10:48

So could somebody who let's use a dramatic example, kill someone, if they just absolutely believe that they didn't do it? Even if there was like video evidence that clearly shows them? They did it? If they didn't believe it? Can they pass the test?

John Grogan 11:04

Yes, it's not something they can train themselves to do if they were so drunk or blacked out and really don't remember it. They will pass but if they probably playing games, no, it will catch them their sweat at their fingers will go up dramatically. And we'll we'll call it a lot.

Nick VinZant 11:21

It couldn't just be one of these things that I sat in a room before I took this and just convinced myself over and over and over again, even though I like if if there was any internal thought in my mind that I had done it, I would probably get caught by the by the system.

John Grogan 11:37

If you know you're lying, you'll fail. In fact, one of the questions on the final exam, but most polygraph academies are kind of sociopath or a psychopath be tested? And the correct answer is, if they know they're lying, they will fail.

Nick VinZant 11:54

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions? Sure. So the big one, obviously, is going to be Can people fake it?

John Grogan 12:02

No. Back in the old days until the 1990s. computerized polygraphs didn't exist. It was a roll of chart paper with four moving pens. And it was a struggle and a lot It took hours back then because we had to write furiously as a chart paper was moving. And when it was done, we had to use rulers to make measurements. And with computerized No more ink or paper problems. It's amplified and achievements got scoring software that sees things better than our own eyes did. So there is no way to beat a polygraph. Now short of bribing an examiner and people try that quite often.

Nick VinZant 12:41

What's the most amount somebody has ever bribed you with?

John Grogan 12:44

People have offered 100 to $1,000

Nick VinZant 12:49

did that seem like a reasonable amount for that case? Or did you feel like they should have bribed you with a lot more?

John Grogan 12:55

Well we would never take a bribe so it doesn't matter the amount but let's say a guy his wife found out he was cheating and she would not give them another chance so he's got no benefit of answering the truth tour. They come in and say Mr. I'll give you $500 just guarantee me to pass when we say now we can't even test for you now that you've said that.

Nick VinZant 13:17

So that so the I guess the lesson I would take is bribe the bribe the examiner and then you don't have to take the test kind of right.

John Grogan 13:26

I would bet 99% of examiners wouldn't take the bribe

Nick VinZant 13:30

most interesting legal case you've been involved

John Grogan 13:33

in examiner's do a lot of the tests you see of high profile people accused of killing their wives and whether or not the polygraph would have been admitted in court isn't important to them it when they release it to the public for public relations reasons and almost every big criminal case you've heard of they have taken polygraphs and failed and that's why you didn't hear about them

Nick VinZant 14:01

really so basically if like it's a big case and you don't hear about the polygraph they've probably

John Grogan 14:08

they've probably probably took one and failed.

Nick VinZant 14:11

You do a lot of these things obviously for court like you mentioned immigration court and stuff like that. But now what kind of stuff do you do on the on the civil side?

John Grogan 14:20

On the civil side, not criminal but civil?

Nick VinZant 14:23

Or sorry, I I should have phrased that differently. Um, like personal stuff. Hey, is my spouse cheating on me? Nothing to do with nothing.

John Grogan 14:32

Almost 90% of our work is husband wife, boyfriend girlfriend, gay couples thinking the others cheating? How much does it cost? Anywhere from 145 to 1000. It's the same test whether you pay $1 or 1000. The computer polygraph doesn't know what you charge what you paid. So it's just whatever the examiner charges based on Are there other examiner's in his or her area and then some culture are known for asking certain questions. Also, there are certain cultures that want to know, was I really the first guy you had sex with? is mine. Really the biggest one you've ever seen certain cultures out

Nick VinZant 15:16

there, this is kind of a broad question. But in your, in your experience are most people generally lying or most people generally telling the truth?

John Grogan 15:22

About 5050. I do a lot of failed urine tests from military bases, where guys and gals want to say, I did not knowingly ingest whatever chemical, your analysis says I used. And they're ordered, go get a private polygraph. Because if you don't pass one, you will be out of the service very shortly.

Nick VinZant 15:44

And that's about 5050. Like sometimes they really did these

John Grogan 15:49

things, we fail them and they'll sometimes they'll say, Well, I don't like your test. Okay? I'm not saying you're a liar, but I'm saying you failed a polygraph test, which usually means the same thing.

Nick VinZant 16:00

So obviously, you always go by the test. But can you After all, the your experience? Can you pretty much tell at this point, whether somebody's lying or not, before you even look at the test?

John Grogan 16:12

I can tell only while I'm testing them as I watched them live on the computer screen, but looking at them personally. No, I can't tell

Nick VinZant 16:20

you. Is there somebody that stands out in your mind? And obviously you don't have to name names or anything like that. But is there anybody that stands out in your mind that it was like man, that person was a good liar?

John Grogan 16:30

No, people that are good liars, they lot of people that are guilty are willing to take polygraphs because they think they're such a good liar, they can beat a polygraph. And then we show them on the screen. After they fail a couple of times, we say we're going to turn on a screen so you can watch yourself live. And they see what their body does on the first couple of questions. And they can see when we get to the important question, what a major difference it is yet they thought they were in control of their body.

Nick VinZant 16:59

You know, some of the things that I've always heard of like you can tell somebody's lying if they look around, or if they blink a lot or anything like that. Is there any truth to that kind of stuff?

John Grogan 17:07

while they're studies that say when went out? Ask you have you ever stolen anything since you've been an adult? If you're while you're thinking of your eyes go to one side it means you're truly trying to remember and the other side it looks is means you're trying to make up an answer.

Nick VinZant 17:24

What's the biggest lie somebody has ever told you? It could

John Grogan 17:27

be but a lot we work for a lot of marijuana dispensary. So those are all cash businesses. They can't get a bank account. Sometimes they take in 100 or 200,000 a day. An employee can take 50,000 and not even be known for a couple of days. So Bell saying no, I didn't take it and we see they're wrong. And when we tell them they're wrong, that's when they say we'll give you a big chunk of money if you say that I passed

Nick VinZant 17:54

best scene in a movie depicting someone taking a polygraph test.

John Grogan 17:59

Well people talk about that. Folks movie I can't remember the name a guy using an antique polygraph. And that's back when people used to put a tack in their shoe to try to interfere with polygraph results.

Nick VinZant 18:14

Oh, that's one of the oceans movies isn't it? It's like a gambling but

John Grogan 18:18

but there was one of those it's Meet the Fockers.

Nick VinZant 18:21

Oh right. Right. Right. Right. was that? Was that in any way so somewhat accurate?

John Grogan 18:29

Um, it's how we did it in the 80s before computerized came out?

Nick VinZant 18:34

What's the worst polygraph scene in a TV show or movie where you went off? That's not anywhere near accurate?

John Grogan 18:41

Well, we see them wiring to the fingers and putting them backwards where the moisture devices are touching their fingernails instead of their fingerprint areas, things like that.

Nick VinZant 18:53

What advice would you give to me or to anybody listening if they were about to take a polygraph test?

John Grogan 18:59

to do your best you need to answer yes or no with your mouth only no head movements or body movements. If you shake your head yes or no, it'll make your body change the same as if you had lied. So we just want the truth we don't want you to fail due to moving so answer with your mouth only.

Nick VinZant 19:18

Um, that's pretty much all the questions that I have. Is there anything that you think that I missed or anything like that?

John Grogan 19:25

Sometimes people ask us what if he uses drugs? Is that going to change the results? polygraph just to comparison test. So if they take a drug and it slows their breathing or blood, it's also going to slow it on the other questions, not just the client questions, and we're still looking to see if the client questions have a bigger reaction than the known truthful, or the third type of questions. There's no drug that can help someone pass as long as they can still walk and talk. The drug won't change anything.

Nick VinZant 19:58

How did you get into this

John Grogan 20:01

I was a regular private investigator and started getting more and more calls for it. In most counties, in most states, there's less than one polygraph examiner per County. For example, California has 58 counties, there's 10,000 private investigators, but there's only 50 private polygraph examiner's. Why is that? Why? It just doesn't attract people. They make movies and TV shows about private investigators, because that's exciting. They don't make them about lie detector people.

Nick VinZant 20:35

But you would think that at some point, that there would just be enough of a demand that people could like, man, there's this is an open area, I could jump into this. How come?

John Grogan 20:46

It is a profession that those in it, try to keep others out. They tell them Oh, it's too hard to learn. Oh, it's boring. The equipment's too expensive, because they want to keep the work for themselves.

Nick VinZant 20:58

How expensive is this stuff? How expensive is equipment,

John Grogan 21:02

there's four brands of computer polygraph. It's kind of like comparing Honda Toyota Nissan, and maybe Kia. one's a little less known, but probably still just as good. What you get fit in a shoe box and a cost you four to $6,000.

Nick VinZant 21:17

That's not a huge startup cost. Not not in the grand scheme of but the schools

John Grogan 21:21

are 10 weeks long, and a lot of people don't have that time to put into a school. There's only town in the whole United States.

Taxidermist Allis Markham

Part scientist, part artist. Allis Markham is one of the world’s premier Taxidermists. She specializes in bringing exotic animals back to life for museums and science centers. We talk Taxidermy, interesting animals and the growing science of Nassology. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Things You Should Always Keep.

Allis Markham: 01:23ish

Pointless: 29:45ish

Top 5: 42:00ish

https://www.preytaxidermy.com/pages/about-prey (Allis Markham Website - Prey Taxidermy)

https://www.instagram.com/allis (Allis Markham Instagram)

Interview with Taxidermist Allis Markham

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, award winning taxidermy, and stuff you should always keep,

Allis Markham 0:23

we're taking their skin off, like you would peel an orange. And then we're creating a structural representation of what's inside of them. Occasionally, I'll take what's called a death mask. And what that is, I'll make a very careful mold of the face. When I see the similarities when I scan animals, and I noticed the similarities to humans, it's much more jarring than the differences.

Nick VinZant 0:49

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is part scientist, part artist. And she specializes in bringing exotic and everyday animals back to life from museums and science Center's she's one of the best taxidermists in the world. And she's won all kinds of awards. This is taxidermist Alice Markham. So is this more of an art or more of a science,

Allis Markham 1:26

that's what I love about taxidermy is that it sits in a place between art and science. So I have to initially when I'm working on something, you know, you're very much a scientist in taking it all apart, right? And then you really have to utilize artistic skills to reassemble the specimen. But then scientific ones to know how to make it biologically accurate. So you get to be both. And that's the fun of it.

Nick VinZant 1:54

So I know nothing about this. And I'll be honest, like when I used to go to museums and places like that, I didn't realize those were real animals. I thought that this was something that they made, like in graphics, art department or something like that. You're you're using real animals, right?

Allis Markham 2:11

Yes, absolutely. So what will happen is basically is an animal will die these days, we're not so much going out to collect things like they did in the 17 and 1800s. Mostly today, an animal will die at a zoo or be founded, unfortunately, animals get hit by a car, and then an institution will acquire them, right, they'll put them in a freezer is a fancy way to say. And then they will come to me, I'll pick these up whole frozen, and then I will taxidermy them, right. So we take the first part, as I said, was taking them apart, right? So we're skinning them, we're taking their skin off, like you would peel an orange. And then we're creating a structural representation of what's inside of them. So there's no bones, there's no organs, the eyes are made out of glass, all of that. So really, the only thing that's real on them is the skin. I mean, there are exceptions, right? In birds, you're going to leave in some of the bones. But for the most part, taxi domain, right, the arrangement of skin taxidermy, it's just that we're just arranging the skin, the rest of sculpture,

Nick VinZant 3:26

I grew up so in small town, Kansas, and when I think of a taxidermist, like I think of Bob's taxidermy down the road, and I always heard it as referred to as like, hey, go get the animal stuffed. But is, is that what you're doing? But on a much higher level? Or is this a completely different kind of thing than like, Gus, who could do the bobcat you shot for 20 bucks down the road, so to speak?

Allis Markham 3:53

Well, Bob's taxidermy and Gus, they're doing essentially what I'm doing. They're not stuffing anything. In fact, fun fact. If you're like, if you use the word stuffed or to stuff around taxidermist, like, Bill, them's fighting words. I don't come in. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, I'm trying to

Nick VinZant 4:18

disrespectful. It's like, it's an oversimplification, right. Oh, yeah,

Allis Markham 4:21

exactly. Because we're not stuffing anything. What we're doing is again, like we're creating this inner sculpture. Now look, some people are going to go to more trouble to create that inner sculpture and bring a lot more art to it than others. Right. So you know, if it's like someone who does hunting trophies and all of that, even within that there's different levels. Yeah, there's someone you can take some things to and very cheaply get something done, and you'll get a cheap product back. But that's like any industry, right? You're going to get what you pay for texted or misses the same thing. But the difference I guess, between somebody who does trophy work or commercial taxes, as it's called, and then museum people is that we're always kind of doing custom work. Everything is, you know, we need it to outlive us. So it's different in that regard. But it everybody is. It's still everybody's still artists, right?

Nick VinZant 5:18

How did you get into this? Like, Was this something that you found yourself in? Or was this something that as a young girl you thought, taxidermy?

Allis Markham 5:27

You know, it's funny, it's something I kind of came back to. I grew up in Indiana and Florida, and I loved nature and outdoors. And I would find bones and just be fascinated, right? I mean, I was just all of that, like coming home with like lizards in my pocket and stuff. And you did a lot of art growing up, did a lot of sculpture. And then somehow, as an adult, I ended up in marketing, right, I worked for Disney in social media marketing. And I was there for a while. And I ended up making good enough money to quit. Good enough money to be like, this is not what I want to do. I mean, I really looked around, I was director level at Disney in my mid 20s. And I was miserable. And so it looked around, I was like, What do I want to do? And I'd been collecting taxidermy for some time, and like, kind of playing with maybe wanting to learn how to do that, and loved the Natural History Museum. And I answered that question for myself and being like, you know, what, I want to work in museums. And I want to be a taxidermist. So I really set out to do this. I didn't like find myself in it. Um, but so then I quit my job at Disney and I went to a brief taxidermy program up in Montana, got back stopped the museum, taxidermists here in LA it natural history museum, and like, talked my way into an apprenticeship. I don't even know how, and yes, over a decade ago,

Nick VinZant 7:02

in terms of like a scientific, so to speak education, like how long do you have to go to school, go to training, apprenticeship, that kind of stuff?

Allis Markham 7:10

So the answer to that is, depends on how quickly you learn. Some people come to taxidermy from an art background, right? went to art school, or just are really good artists. Some people like my mentor, he's a zoologist, who has some amazing artistic skills, right. So it just really depends. I mean, I didn't. I didn't go to school for this. I teach at Occidental College. I don't even have an a college degree. I don't know if they know that. No, they know that. Now, yeah, Oh, I forgot to tell them. But you know, people come from different things. But what I do have is, you know, I apprenticed at the museum under my mentor. For several years, I got to work alongside Kimball Garrett, who's one of the world's leading ornithologist, right? So I have a trade job. And people don't really this is a trade job, even if you're working at the highest level. So but does having a degree help? Oh, absolutely. That'll help you get hired and work at a museum or you know, whatever it is, so, but it's certainly not required. You could just be really good at it and really motivated and get a really good apprenticeship. That's kind of how things are done. I will say, you do want to get an apprenticeship is the way to do it. And I've been lucky enough to have a great one. But I've also traveled and worked under other taxidermist all over the world. And I've had people come here to learn from me,

Nick VinZant 8:43

we kind of touched on it a little bit. But I know that obviously every single animal is going to be different. But let's say you get in a cat, dog, whatever. Like what, how do you do it.

Allis Markham 8:55

So with anything, let's say I get in, get, let's just go with a cat. So I'm like, let's say it's a bobcat. So I get in a bobcat, right, and it's frozen, and it's dead. Initially, I need to take reference. So if you have all these measurements, sheets, and if you go to my Instagram, and you scroll down, you'll see like a measurement sheet. And I'm measuring all these details on the face, the body, all of that. And I will also take a bunch of photos. Occasionally I'll take what's called a death mask. And what that is, is I'll make a very careful mold of the face. And then take that mold off, fill it with plaster and I have a replica of the face. So I'll do things like that. And all of that references giving me a lot of information because now I'm going to take it apart, meaning now I'm going to remove the skin from the rest of the body of this Bobcat. So you know I'll make an incision there's a few different ways to skin a cat therefore And, and then I'll kind of again, I'll peel the skin off like you're peeling an orange, right. And then I end up with a carcass and the skin that are separate many times I'll take the carcass and I'll take a tracing of it on like butcher paper, I'll take it apart all of that. And then I will take the skin and the skin of that cat gets turned into leather. This is a chemical process that's known as tanning. So it just turns it into leather, just like your shoes or anything else except it's got a face. Yeah, so that's turning into leather. And while that's being turned into leather, then I will take all of that reference I have. And I will start to make what we call a form or a mannequin. So I need to replace everything that was inside right in the pose that I want. So the skins off in buckets being tanned right, now I've got a few different options, I can carve something I can utilize all the the reference that I have, and I can hand carve something out of foam. It's a rigid foam, it's called polyurethane. It's like a styrofoam only harder, and I can sculpt it that way, I can order what we call a commercial form, if either taxidermy supply websites, and you can get pretty close to the size and the pose that you want, and then someone like me would alter them, right, like kind of cut it up, carve it a bit chisel away. Once I feel like I've got a pretty good form, right, I'll take the skin. And that'll go over the sculpture, I'll have hide paste in between the skin and the form, I'll have glass eyes, I'll put clay on in the face, like in different ways to make different muscle, great create expression, and the whole thing gets sewn up. And then I let it dry, right. And then it has a spa day, right? Just like you would groom a dog or something, I will take it and shampoo it, condition it blow dry it off everything like that. And like brush everything with a dog brush. And then there's finishing work, I'm going to paint certain things, you know, cats can have a cute little pinky, red nose, I'll paint that, you know all those different things. So that was a really short description of how that would be done.

Nick VinZant 12:25

First of all, that's fascinating. But why not use the bones? Like why couldn't you use the bones in it? How come? They don't?

Allis Markham 12:32

That's a great question. So they used to use the bones up and into until like the 1960s or so. That was before we really were using any type of polymer right in this. The bones are made of calcium, and over time they break down. So if you look at older taxidermy, you'll see sometimes it's like kind of collapsing in on itself, what they would do is take the bones and go over them with burlap and plaster. So over time, this will become brittle. And it's also extremely heavy. So it's just we don't need to use the bones. You have an understanding of anatomy enough that the bones don't really need to be there.

Nick VinZant 13:19

Did this taxidermy last that long?

Allis Markham 13:22

text? Are we Yeah, I mean, I've repaired things, you know, or gone in the museum and done maintenance on some things that have been around since? Yeah, like the 1800s. That should last a very long time.

Nick VinZant 13:35

I really thought you were gonna say like 20 years.

Allis Markham 13:41

If something's done, right, like there is taxidermy that only last 20 years, because someone was like, we don't need to take off all the fat. And then bugs come and eat it. Like that certainly happens. But yeah, if you go, I mean, there's taxidermy from the 1800s, early 1900s. And some of it still looks amazing. today. If you go to the Field Museum, there's a gentleman who's considered the father of modern taxidermy, anti ramas, named Carl akeley. And his I mean, his tax form is there. It's from the late 1800s. And what's incredible, gosh, yeah.

Nick VinZant 14:15

So like, okay, when you're doing something, how accurate Do you have to be save the nose on this animal is two inches to 2.15 inches? Like, do you have to get it to 2.15 inches? And if it's 2.14, that's not good enough? Or do you just have to get it pretty, like where somebody can eyeball test?

Allis Markham 14:35

I mean, you know, it depends, right? So what is your viewing distance, so you want to get it as close as possible, but when you're working in a museum to and let's say you're doing 4050 pieces for them and you're on a budget and whatever, you know, you can always spend the amount of time on one piece that you would like to or whatever. I work in millimeters. I get as close as I possibly can, when things dry, they shrink down a little bit. So you can't always control for certain things. But I mean, you should get I mean, you're working with an organic specimen that would sit at a certain size, so you should be able to get pretty close. I mean, if you're far off the mark, then like, that's a problem. But if you're within a few millimeters, depending on what it is, I think that's it's very acceptable.

Nick VinZant 15:28

Do you I mean, this may be some of my personal feelings coming in there. Does it ever feel weird? Like this was a living animal?

Allis Markham 15:36

Sometimes, um, you know, I certainly haven't lost my respect for every animal that comes in the door. Some things Hit me harder than others, though. You know, mountain lions, because they get hit by cars. When I get one of those, it kind of bums me out. But because it's just such a, I mean, they're bigger than me. I'm a tiny lady. So a lot of times are bigger than me. And it's just like, wow, and you kind of see how they died. And all that and knowing that it's because of, of people is upsetting. Same with just like, I got it some albatross. And they're just stunning dream birds of mine. But, you know, I think the real differences is I don't often take on pets. Just because it does feel different. There's an emotional weight to working on somebody's pet versus a wild animal. And there's a lot of time, you know, extra time you put into it with a domestic animal. And those, like, those, like they hit me hard. Because I you know, I love animals, I have dogs, the whole thing, and it just feels different. And yeah, I'm kind of losing my words here. But it really does feel different when it's someone's pet.

Nick VinZant 16:56

Putting all humbleness aside, why are you good at it, basically.

Allis Markham 17:00

Oh, why am I going to taxidermy? Um, you know, I think it's because I don't put a lot of ego into it. I'm really excited to learn. I'm always learning, right? I work in a lot of different animals. So every time I sit down is usually a different animal. I'm not cranking out like, you know, 50 pelicans a year like No, do this. It's all It's all right. So if I'm not willing to learn, or keep learning, then all my birds are going to look like this one bird, all my mammals really like that one mammal. So I have to keep evolving and keep learning. And I think another part of that is not just on this specimen. But there's a lot of people with way more experience than me. There's a lot of people with way more knowledge than me and more skill, and am I willing to put aside what I think that I know, and actually learn from them. So I, you know, I'm grateful every day to allow myself to feel stupid and just listen to other people. You know, I think I'll do a lot of work on researching things. I'll do a lot of reaching out to other taxidermist and be like, hey, how did you get the blood out of this seagull? Like it's, you know, things like that. So yeah, just just learning.

Nick VinZant 18:22

Okay. Are you ready for some Harder, harder slash listener submitted questions?

Allis Markham 18:27

Sure. Yeah, all taxidermists are pretty much batshit. Crazy. So really, yeah, myself included. Well, we all kind of work alone, like you got to be pretty. Okay, with being different if you're going to sit down and work with dead animals, and you've got to really not give a shit what people think about you for starters. That's true. You know what I mean? Because everyone has things that they say. I mean, I've been called like, Norman Bates, Cruella de Vil. Like all of that, you know, I get all that everyone thinks like, I'm a mortician. So I think you got to be not care what people think about you if you're going to be a taxidermist, and then you actually have to be able to sit down and do the work of taking something completely apart. Just to put it back together again. And so it looks exactly the same. Which is crazy when you think about it. Like what an odd thing to do.

Nick VinZant 19:22

Yeah, he's kind of when you think about it, right? Like,

Allis Markham 19:25

yeah, I do get a ton of work on this just so it looks like it did in the first place.

Nick VinZant 19:31

So many good slogans for taxidermy taxidermy. We don't give a fuck. Back, but back to the listener submitted questions. Easiest animal hardest animal?

Allis Markham 19:46

Whoo. That's actually really good question. Okay, so the easiest animal to do. Oh, you know what, armadillo. I'm gonna put a caveat on this hard animal to take apart right? You get an R armadillo. And if you're familiar with them, right, they have these like shields going down their back. annoyingly, they are connected to the spine. So you kind of have to hollow them out like you're like you're hollowing out a watermelon or something just not as juicy and way too stinky and they can have leprosy. So imagine a watermelon like that. You're welcome. And then, but, you know, so that's hard, but when you put them back together, they are, everything is shaped by that shield. So there's no feathers to groom, there's no hair to lay in the correct position, whatever. So, I mean, not that I would do this, but I have a theory, you could just fill them up with some spray insulation foam and call it a day. I you know when I say that, like it'd be a funny experiment, and I think they would have been perfectly fine. And I'm not one to say things like that. I'm a perfectionist, but that has to be the easiest thing.

Nick VinZant 21:01

What's the one we like all my gosh,

Allis Markham 21:03

I'm quite probably a really delicate bird. I would say like a dove. A dove has a very thin skin. So a dove. If you were to skin something like let's say a j just a blue j, they're, they're pretty feisty, and they have a really tough skin just the way that they are right. It's like wet paper towel. But a dove is like skinning wet one ply toilet paper. It's like if you look at it wrong, it's just gonna fall apart. In fact, holding the skin up. If you're just to hold the skin up lifted, its own weight would break it. It's just extremely delicate. And then the feathers just want to flat fall out. So you can end up with a pretty big mess on your table and not a lot of bird.

Nick VinZant 21:54

Is there one that like, Is there an animal that like can do it?

Allis Markham 21:58

I mean, I thought I wouldn't be able to do baby hummingbirds. But I did. I was surprised when those turned out and they're on my Instagram. They belong to Occidental College, I did a little baby hummingbirds in a nest. And the mom is like hovering and feeding them. And I'm really proud of that that was there the size of insects. They're really small. But yeah, I'm happy about those

Nick VinZant 22:24

animal that made you go, oh my gosh, that's what this thing looks like when you opened it up.

Allis Markham 22:30

I mean, I'm going to take that back to the armadillo. Those are pretty weird when I opened it up. But I will also say, sea lion. So sea lions are pinnipeds. And they have the weirdest, like when I skinned out the flipper, one of the front feet of a sea lion. It looks like a human hand with the longest fingers you've ever seen. But so human looking. Oh, it was just when I see the similarities when I scan animals, and I noticed the similarities to humans, it's much more jarring than the differences. Is Sony.

Nick VinZant 23:13

The same? Yeah, I mean, we are all descended from eventually at some point, the same thing, right? It is crazy.

Allis Markham 23:20

We're all the same machine. We're just configured in different ways. But if you look at the wing of a bird, it's the exact same bones as our hands and our arms. Right? It's just it's the same machine it's just configured a little differently for whatever that machine is doing.

Nick VinZant 23:37

prehistoric animal you like a crack at

Allis Markham 23:41

Archaeopteryx. It's like an ancient kind of, I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but it's an ancient, it's like a paleo bird. But then the paleontologists dyno people are like, no, it's a dinosaur. I don't know I'm probably gonna yelled at by one or the other of them. But Archaeopteryx so for some

Nick VinZant 24:00

reason, for some reason, I really thought you'd say woolly mammoth. I feel like

Allis Markham 24:05

oh, they're just so elephant like, and I feel like they're so well understood that, you know, I like a challenge. And that'd be really fun to do, but it would be really similar to, I would say, an elephant of today, whereas an Archaeopteryx is like, way different. And I'm such a bird nerd. I feel like if I didn't name a bird, it would just be a bee cheating on on birds or something.

Nick VinZant 24:34

Um, I don't know what that one is supposed to mean. Oh, this one just says is this a growing or a shrinking industry?

Allis Markham 24:44

Are you asking if it's a dead art? To me a little pun. Um, it's growing at but I think the part of it. So what I think is shrinking is I think a lot of trophy hunting is shrinking. You're just not getting a lot of people out. There. Hunting is As much as you did, but what I think is growing, is people interested in learning about it for museums and art. I'm basing this anecdotally on the amount of students that I have. I was teaching through Atlas Obscura online, you know, during the pandemic, and I'll probably do that, again, I have over 300 students in one of my classes from around the world. So 300 students willing to pay money to spend three consecutive Saturdays learning taxidermy online. That's crazy. I've also had the pleasure of going to Australia to teach, you know, 50 different students there. I've had, you know, I've taught over 1000 individual students in my in person workshops. And if you just go on Instagram, you know, that's where I mostly AM. There's so many, I mean, especially women, I'm getting into taxidermy that you didn't see before. So that that's really starting to happen. And we're seeing a lot more diversity too.

Nick VinZant 26:10

Okay. Here's the question that you either always get asked, or no one has ever asked you but always wonders this. could you do this to a person?

Allis Markham 26:20

Yeah, I always get asked that. So I, you know, my answer is this taxidermy, of an animal looks best when that animal is covered in fur or feathers. Let's talk about why. If you have a leather handbag, it's been tanned just like a mammal skin would be tanned, right? It's gone through that same process I talked about before, it doesn't have fur on it. So it looks like leather. So if we take a person, and we do that same process where we turn the skin to leather, and it doesn't have fur on it, they're going to look like that handbag, with eyes and a nose and a mouth, but the skin's gonna look leathery, right?

Nick VinZant 27:03

Like a seven year old Florida retiree is what I'm imagining just burned in the sun.

Allis Markham 27:10

Yes, exactly what I was thinking of. So it'll look like that. Um, there are some things you could do. There's a process called wax infiltration. It's similar to like the body worlds thing where it's plasticization. You know, but it's a really difficult process. It's very slow chemical process, where essentially, you're inundating the skin with a paraffin wax. So it'll look more like a wax museum situation. So you could do it. Um, but it would take a long time, be very expensive. And then if it got too hot, they would melt a little. So I wouldn't want to do it.

Nick VinZant 27:49

Do you get asked that question. A lot. And how do you feel about getting asked that question like, Do you worry about people because they constantly asked her? Do you feel like that's a natural part of people's curiosity?

Allis Markham 28:01

I mean, I feel like that's a natural part of people's curiosity, because you're looking, you're like, can that happen to me? You look at animals, and then you imagine your own body and what the process would look like on yourself. And so I actually like i don't i think it's an interesting question. I it tells me the person's like actually kind of thinking about it. They're internalizing it and thinking about it.

Nick VinZant 28:25

That's pretty much all the questions I have, is there anything else you think we missed? Or what's coming up next for you?

Allis Markham 28:32

if we missed anything, I'll say like, what's coming up next in my world, and we working on a couple different nature centers in Orange County, I'm excited about that. I have a big backlog of work I need to catch up on before that, because I was not someone that thrived in COVID. I was wildly depressed. So you know, so I'm catching up on all of that. And I'm very open about that. Because I see people on Instagram being like thriving and COVID. I'm just like, did not. But um, yeah, so I'm just here catching up on work. And I have a new puppy. I mean, he's like nine months now. But he I think he's still puppy. He's giant. So yeah. Okay. And then they'll go champion. Oh, so this one last thing, too. And also, I have in May, the World Championships of taxidermy are coming up again. So I'm getting ready for that.

Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur

Is what you see, really the way the world looks? As an Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur studies that and more. We talk the latest in optical physics, the possibility of invisibility, coherence theory, meta materials and why movies are wrong about lasers. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Celebrities You Don’t Wanna Share a Name With.

Dr. Greg Gbur: 01:51ish

Pointless: 31:23ish

Top 5: 47:36ish

https://skullsinthestars.com/ (Dr. Greg Gbur’s Blog)

https://twitter.com/drskyskull (Dr. Greb Gbur’s Twitter)

https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300231298/falling-felines-and-fundamental-physics (Falling Felines and Fundamental Physics, Dr. Greg Gbur’s Book)

Interview with Optical Physicist Dr. Greg Gbur

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant. Coming up in this episode, the latest in optical physics and celebrities, you don't want to share a name with,

Dr. Greg Gbur 0:24

I would say we can't completely say we look exactly the way we think we look. Because a lot of it depends on how our brain interprets stuff. There are predictions that we should be able to build computers that are really based on quantum physics, that can do things that are traditionally impossible.

Nick VinZant 0:46

Could there really be an invisibility cloak,

Dr. Greg Gbur 0:48

it may be in principle possible to do it, but in practice, we will probably never make one as good as people would like to see them. On the other hand,

Nick VinZant 1:01

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't really know very much about optical physics. But I was fascinated to find out just how big of an impact this has on nearly everything around us from light and how we communicate to the future of computers, the possibility of invisibility, even the idea of is the way that we see the world. really how it looks. Our first guest is a professor of optical physics at the University of North Carolina. This is Dr. Greg Gabor. What is optical physics? I don't I don't know what that is, honestly,

Dr. Greg Gbur 1:52

optical physics is really just understanding the physical nature of light and what it is and what it can do.

Nick VinZant 2:00

I don't know what light is, it's something I've never even thought of like it's it's, it's light. What do you mean what?

Dr. Greg Gbur 2:07

Well, yeah, that's a question that's really obsessed scientists and philosophers for centuries. Nowadays, we consider light to be a collection of massless particles that carry energy and momentum, but also have wave like properties. So if you've ever heard the quantum physics, discussion of wave particle duality, light fits that bill when you're looking at, when you're looking at light, your your eyes are collecting a bunch of light particles, which we call photons, that travel through space, behaving like a wave as they're traveling to your eye.

Nick VinZant 2:49

I have no idea what that means. Is, is, I guess my question would be like, Am I too dumb?Or have you guys not quite figured it out?

Dr. Greg Gbur 3:00

I would really say that we haven't quite figured it out yet. And part of the reason for that is when you get down to studying things on that small of a level, the rules that we're used to in our day to day life no longer apply. So the way things behave in our daily lives is very different from the way things behave on this atomic level or below for centuries, or 1000s of years. Nobody ever went any deeper than that. They said, well, light travels in straight lines from place to place and reflects off of shiny surfaces. And when it goes into something like water, it changes direction a little bit. And it took a lot of research for people to realize that light has wave like properties that it acts that it acts in some ways like water waves rippling on a pond or sound waves traveling through the air. And then for about 100 years from 1800 to 1900. People were convinced that light was exclusively behaved like a wave. And then in 1905, Albert Einstein said, Well, no, actually sometimes it acts like a wave. Sometimes it acts like a particle. And we still don't completely understand what that means.

Nick VinZant 4:17

us not completely knowing what it is, is does that have a big, everyday kind of application? Or is that more of an academic exercise?

Dr. Greg Gbur 4:28

more of an academic exercise. So the mathematics and the theoretical idea, understand our theoretical understanding of light is really good. We have computer simulations so we can simulate the behavior of light in all sorts of stuff. And that's made its way into computer games. For instance, there's so many computer games now that have built into their engines, realistic, light interactions, again on this sort of daily scale so you get very realistic lighting effects. The place where things get troubling is just trying to understand what exactly it means and how it fits into a bigger picture of how we should view the universe. But that's still an open question for really, almost every atomic particle or small particles on that sort of tiny atom sizes. We know we can very well describe mathematically what they'll do. But the rules that we've created to study this don't completely make sense.

Nick VinZant 5:36

Like how does this kind of translate into my everyday life,

Dr. Greg Gbur 5:40

most of the study of light that's relevant to everyday life life these days is the wave properties of light. So there are things like, like fiber optic cables, for instance, that are sort of forming the bulk of our communication system with the Internet, and telephone communications, and so forth. All of that requires an understanding of the wave properties of light, largely because we're squeezing the light through these tiny optical fibers. And you really do need the mathematics of the wave properties of light to describe what it's doing. So from a practical sense, a lot of the optical engineering that's being done takes advantage of a good knowledge of the wave properties of light, those quantum particle properties of light. Those are things that really still are not, I would say, in everyday usage. A lot of that individual quantum photon stuff is still in the realm of physics research, as opposed to applications.

Nick VinZant 6:51

I never, I guess I never put that two and two together and thought that fiber optic cables meant that we were sending messages by light. I never, like I just assumed we were it was like electricity or something. I didn't know that what we were actually doing. That's so interesting. And I'm okay, to kind of put things in perspective, like, on a scale of one to 10. One, we know nothing, like we don't even know where this light is coming from or anything. And 10 we got this thing locked down, we got all the answers to every question you can think of? Where do you think that we would be at with light right now?

Dr. Greg Gbur 7:29

Um, I would cautiously maybe say around an eight. We understand the physics of light, we can control light to an incredible extent now we have technology, we know how to produce it, detect it manipulate it. But there are these sort of fundamental unanswered questions that potentially could lead to some surprises in the future. So. And in fact, I like to characterize at the beginning of this new century, around the year 2000, people started working with the concept of what are called metamaterials materials that are not found in nature, but that you can in principle construct in a laboratory. And these metamaterials can have very unusual effects that you don't see in nature, and that people previously thought were impossible. And I like to describe the history of optical physics is that we've spent hundreds of years if not 1000s, if you want to go back to the ancient Greeks, we can go 1000s, but we've at least spent hundreds of years asking, What can light do? Like what are the limitations? What are what can we do with light? What Can't we do with light? And since the beginning of the 21st century, the question is changed a bit? We're now a lot of people are more asking, how can we make light do whatever we want it to do? The idea of a metamaterial really started in the in the late 90s. And the the ideas is that most of the time, when we're trying to do optics, we're working with natural materials like glass. And the optical properties of those materials are really dictated by the natural chemical composition of the material and its natural structure. And then people started saying, Well, what happens if we change that structure on a really small scale on a scale comparable to 10s or hundreds of atoms? Well, it turns out that if you can do that, if you can manipulate the structure of that material on that scale, you can you can make that material have very different optical properties and do very strange things. And that's sort of the birth of this idea. metamaterials is wow, if we, we if we can manipulate the structure of the material on this really small scale, we can do all sorts of things that we previously thought were not possible. However, in general, for for visible light that we can see with our eyes, we still don't know how to very efficiently make metamaterials and it and fabricate them efficiently so that we could use them for commercial devices.

Nick VinZant 10:34

You mentioned the light that we can see with their eyes like what percentage of light can I actually see,

Dr. Greg Gbur 10:39

I don't know about percentages. But visible light is a really small part of the total electromagnetic spectrum. So electromagnetic waves that I was talking about visible light that goes from our reds to our violets. That's what we call the visible range that our eyes are sensitive to. And then on the on the red end of the scale, you go through infrared light, and you go through microwaves, which are another or another type of electromagnetic radiation. And you go all the way down to the low end of the spectrum are radio waves. And if you go on the other end of the spectrum, after violet light, you have ultraviolet light, and then it goes, then the energy of the individual photons goes up and you have x rays or higher energy, all the way up to gamma rays, which you get out of nuclear reactions are very high energy, photons.

Nick VinZant 11:48

Okay, this is probably getting into a little bit of a different kind of subject. But what, you know, the human body in the brain is very, very adept at kind of doing the things that we need to do, why wouldn't we be able to see that? Like, what would be the reason that the, our evolutionary history said, Nah, don't worry about that stuff? You don't need to see that?

Dr. Greg Gbur 12:04

Yeah, that's a really that's a really good question. An interesting one. And I don't want to I don't want to speculate too much on evolution. But my understanding, and my guess would be is that most of the materials that we that most of the most matter that we see, in the real world, is most clearly visible in that in that range of visible light. Well, two things, first of all, things are probably most visible in that visible light range. So it's sort of the ideal range of colors are the ideal range of wavelengths, since we're talking about light waves, for us to see. And the other part of it is the sun. The sun gives off radiation over a large range of wavelengths. But it's really the peak is centered in that sort of yellow region. And it gives off infrared radiation as well, as well as ultraviolet, but it gives off far less of that.

Nick VinZant 13:11

But okay, this would be like, my dumb guy. Question, right? So if we only see these certain wavelengths, is there chances that there are just things out there? Like there's a Blimey be super dramatic to make a point, there's some giant animal that's can only be seen in ultraviolet light floating around in the sky. And it, there's 1000s of them, and we just don't see it, right. Like, I'm being dramatic. But I think you really get my question, right? Are there just all kinds of things, potentially big things that are just,

Dr. Greg Gbur 13:43

we just don't see it? Funny thing is, since I'm actually writing a book on the subject of invisibility right now been delving into the science fiction, and there are a lot of science fiction stories that are predicated on that idea. There's a classic story by Ambrose bierce, called the damned thing which is about a monster that is colored outside the visible spectrum. And there's another there's a novel called the sinister barrier, which is a very bleak novel, which is exactly this premise that the Earth has actually been controlled by these invisible beings, probably since our beginning our existence and then some scientists managed to see into like the infrared and realize that there are these creatures all over. Though the reality is and this goes back to what I was saying about the structure of matter, is that ordinary materials pretty much everything that we see in nature, is at least somewhat visible in the visible light spectrum. And that has to do with the structure of atoms themselves that pretty much every atom And combinations of atoms are at least partly visible or, or significantly visible in that visible light range. And I don't know that there has ever been found any material that somehow there, I don't think there's any material that I've ever heard of that is completely invisible in that range. It's just outside of normal, it would be outside of chemistry as we know it.

Nick VinZant 15:28

So you're saying there's a chance?

Dr. Greg Gbur 15:32

I've learned? I've learned not to say never, because I can get myself in trouble by saying that too.

Nick VinZant 15:39

Are you ready for some harder slash listeners submitted questions? Since you mentioned it? We'll start with this one. could could there really be an invisibility cloak? Like, could something like that exist? Could we make that someday?

Dr. Greg Gbur 15:54

I'm still I'm still at the level of saying that. It may be in principle possible to do it. But in practice, we will probably never make one as good as people would like to see them. On the other hand, ever there there have been a number of fundamental physical limitations that people have noticed about the idea of making an invisibility cloak. And very recently, in fact, I think it was in late 2019, early 2020. Some researchers came out and said at least one of those major limitations that we thought was kind of a hard physical limitation could be, in principle overcome. So I'm a little more I'm a little more on the side of well, maybe it could happen, though, the technical challenges and making it work are still pretty big. I would think.

Nick VinZant 16:59

This leads us into our next question, best depiction of invisibility. Harry Potter's cloak, Wonder Woman's plane, or the Invisible Man.

Dr. Greg Gbur 17:10

Oh, mmm. That's an interesting question. I would throw out Harry Potter's cloak just because it's magic, Wonder Woman's invisible plane, maybe a good depiction, because I could imagine that, at least all the depictions I've seen have really shown it is just a very transparent craft. That would be very hard to see, which seems plausible. The Invisible Man is sort of an interesting one. Because the, in the original story, the premise is that a person chemically makes themselves completely transparent, and completely invisible, I should say. And that doesn't really seem possible to completely change your chemical composition, and still be alive. But a few years ago, there was some chemists that came out and said, we've made this we have this, we came up with this chemical that will turn a a dead specimen almost completely transparent. And then in a press release, they said, We'd like to try using this and a lesser dose on some living creatures to see if we can get it to work. So I don't know if they've ever succeeded. But people are still trying it. It's it's kind of fascinating how, especially these days, no matter how ridiculous an idea seems, and science fiction, there's probably somebody out there that said, I should give this a try. Maybe this will work.

Nick VinZant 18:46

It's always the thing, like you never know, maybe you actually turns out to be really easy, right? Like, all we had to do is connect the wire. Boom, that's it. That's it. Mmm. Do things really look the way that I think they do? Or is that just our brains interpretation of it?

Dr. Greg Gbur 19:04

It's an interesting question. And I don't have the best answer for it. But it is one at one way I can look at this. Because this is something that personally drives me crazy is you may notice that depending on what sort of camera lens you use, you can look very different in photographs. Because a wide angle camera will give you one look and a narrow angle camera will give you a different look. And, of course, my self conscious self at times looks at certain photos and he goes oh, that's horrible. And then I'm like, I don't look like that. It's like Well, I'm using a wide angle, phone lens really close to my head. So my head looks huge. So to some extent, yeah, perception and our visual system. We can't I would say we can't completely say we look exactly the way we think we look because a lot of it Depends on how our brain interprets stuff. This is sort of a weird question that I asked myself at times is, how do I know that the colors that I'm seeing are the same colors that everyone else is seeing?

Nick VinZant 20:14

But we have a test, right? We have something that could say, No, this is red. Do we do well?

Dr. Greg Gbur 20:23

Well, that's what I mean is that physically, we know what red is, we can talk about it in terms of the wavelengths of light and the combinations of colors. But I'm really thinking about, is that picture in my brain of what red is? Or any other color? Would that agree? If I could magically jump into somebody else's head? Would would our brains interpret that the same way? It's one of those things that like, I like to think about it for about 30 seconds, and then like,

Nick VinZant 20:56

I can, like, it's Wednesday, me, and I can't throw my whole brain for a loop about the nature of reality in my existence. This is just too much for me. Um, this is way above my head. What is quantum noise and coherence theory?

Dr. Greg Gbur 21:13

Let me start with coherence theory, because that's one of my specialties. So what it really comes down to is, when you're looking at a light source, like an ordinary light bulb, you're seeing what looks like a steady stream of light, or you look at the sun or a star, you're seeing a steady stream of light looks pretty constant, you know, barring power outages, or fluctuations of power, or whatever. But really, what you're seeing is a light wave that is fluctuating really, really fast, much, much faster than you can see with your eye. And in fact, much faster than we can detect with, with most detectors. And coherence theory is a subset of optics that is all about asking, How do the random fluctuations of light affect how it behaves? It's an essence. It's really analogous to statistical mechanics or thermodynamics in physics. So statistical mechanics is all about, you have a box that's got that's filled with gas. If you look at that box of gas, you know, on average, it doesn't look like anything's happening in there. But they're all these. They're all these atoms bouncing around, or all these molecules bouncing around. And then the question comes, how does that how does that though? How does all of those motions have all of those different atoms and molecules? risk? What How do all of those combined into the behavior that I'm seeing at a particular time? And coherence theory is basically the optics version of that it's saying, okay, when I look at a light source, I'm actually seeing all the, what I'm really seeing is, is the average of a bunch of random fluctuations of light. And how do I, how do I study the physics of that? How do I relate what I might, how do I relate what I'm seeing to the random fluctuations or the other way around?

Nick VinZant 23:24

Then makes sense to me, right? Like light is actually going like every direction and all the time. But somehow my somehow I piece it together is like, Oh, it's coming from that light bulb? Yeah. Is that kind of

Dr. Greg Gbur 23:37

a little bit? Yeah, you can think of two is that when you're looking at a light bulb, or the sun, you're really looking at the output of a bunch of atoms, a large number of atoms that are all radiating independently. They're all doing their own thing. It's like a bunch of people in a room randomly shouting words out. And when all those people randomly shout out words, on average, you're gonna hear something. And the question then is, what do you hear? What is the AV? What is the average sound made by all of those noisy people?

Nick VinZant 24:15

Let me follow that. Let me follow that up with a brilliant question of best use of lasers in a movie.

Dr. Greg Gbur 24:21

I'm still going with gold finger using a laser beam to slice James Bond and half is still probably my favorite, though I also should give a shout out to the movie real genius because that movie, Val Kilmer way back when it's all about graduate students, basically studying optics and trying to make a really big laser. And it is depressingly accurate. Clearly the writers of that movie knew something about grad school and about lasers and physics.

Nick VinZant 24:54

Like if we, okay, science fiction kind of stuff, if we somehow invent laser blaster Like, what's that? What would that really look like? What movie would you say like, Oh, that's, that might actually be what that would look like.

Dr. Greg Gbur 25:08

So far, I'm not sure any movie is really captured it well. And part of that is, is that lasers can be incredibly dangerous, but their danger comes from dumping a lot of energy in a location at one time. So you know, you can burn a hole through something. But what lasers don't have, which you see it a lot of movies is they don't have a kick to them. Like if somebody gets shot with a gun, the bullet makes an impact and knocks them backwards. And in a lot of movies involving laser blasters, and so forth, you'll see the people get knocked backwards by the blast. But a real laser doesn't do that. Because the the photons, the light particles don't have any mass. So they don't have a lot of kick to them in comparison with a gun. So if you shot someone with a laser gun, you might burn a hole in them, but you wouldn't knock them flying.

Nick VinZant 26:11

So you would just be shot and you'd still just be standing there with a hole in your chest. Yep, but you still be standing in exactly the same place. Pretty much um,

Dr. Greg Gbur 26:20

I should say that light does carry momentum, momentum being that kind of oomph of motion that when one you know billiard ball hits another, it knocks it away, because the one ball transfers the momentum to the other. Light does have momentum, it does have a little bit of a kick to it. But it's a very small amount of kick pretty much negligible on a day to day basis. Which is why when you go out on a hot day, you know you don't open your front door and get blasted back into your house. On a sunny day.

Nick VinZant 26:48

Will we ever be able to travel past the speed of light or get anywhere close to it?

Dr. Greg Gbur 26:53

Everything that we know about physics right now says that we won't get past the speed of light and that that is a fundamental barrier. And everything that we know about Einstein's relativity in the speed of light suggests that it would be pretty close to impossible to get a spacecraft even close to that speed like I once mistakenly put when I was a starting Professor I once mistakenly put as a homework problem for students. I said, Okay, calculate the well like the fraction of the speed of light that the space shuttle went. And it's just this ridiculously tiny number. Our fastest craft have not even gotten close to the speed of light yet. However, again, I can say there's there's, we know, we know a lot about physics in the universe. But there's still plenty of things that we don't really understand things like dark matter and dark energy that make up a ridiculous fraction of the universe that we can't even see. So maybe somebody will figure something out in the future.

Nick VinZant 28:12

Imagine you're going to like meet the your idol. And you've got to wow them with one light fact. What are you going with?

Dr. Greg Gbur 28:21

Okay, I've got a good one. So it takes roughly about two square meters of sunlight, properly focused to melt rock. Wow,

Nick VinZant 28:36

you can even even from here on Earth 93 million miles away. Like it's still

Dr. Greg Gbur 28:44

you know, there's now you can find videos online of these places, I believe they call they're caught. It's called a solar furnace where this is exactly what they have is they've basically designed a big, probably a mirror to concentrate a lot of sunlight into a little spot and they can plop, plop an actual piece and they can plop a piece of metal in there and melt the metal easily and actually just melt stone. And you know, so when you're out sunbathing, you can think about how you know there the sunlight that you're encountering is is pretty intense. Really.

Nick VinZant 29:23

Last question, Where do you what do you think the future holds?

Dr. Greg Gbur 29:28

Well, in my own areas, it seems like the big things that are starting starting to come around is some quantum technology of using quantum physics to do calculations and to do cryptography. So, because because individual atoms the physics of individual atoms is so radically different than what we experience on a day to day scale, there are predictions that we should be able to build computers that are really based on quantum physics that can do things that would, that are traditionally impossible, like solve mathematical problems that would otherwise be impossible to solve or break codes that would be impossible to solve. And there are already commercial devices that claim to use quantum technology for quantum computing. I'm not exactly sure how effective they are not. But that that would be one guest for where your we might see things going is a lot more of a push to adapt quantum physics into our technology.

Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates

Etiquette is more than just being polite. It’s a code of behavior that can take you to the highest levels of personal and professional success. A code Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates (Lady Etiquette) can teach you. We talk proper etiquette, the secret habits of successful people and when it’s time to stop being polite. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Rude Things People Do.

Lady Etiquette Kelley Yates: 01:51ish

Pointless: 24:59ish

Top 5: 39:43ish

https://ladyetiquette.com (Lady Etiquette Website)

https://www.instagram.com/the_lady_etiquette/ (Lady Etiquette Instagram)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuDByTAPN9HqG3mlCSq7adg (Lady Etiquette YouTube)

Interview with Etiquette Coach Kelley Yates - Lady Etiquette

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, we're gonna get a little classy, and then get a little trashy.

Kelley Yates 0:21

I started working for aristocratic families. I was a nanny, I was a real life Mary Poppins, they have success because they have good communication skills. They're able to inspire people with their charm. And that's what etiquettes about. It's almost like magic. And if when we use the code of polite behavior, we are successful. Absolutely. It's a reflection, especially with children, you have to start them off young, because children are a reflection of us.

Nick VinZant 0:56

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest is a coach who has recently seen demand for her services skyrocket. And I think that's because not only have we kind of forgotten how to interact with each other, but also because she's really found that having good etiquette, deportment, being polite good manners, is not just the thing that we should be doing, not just the way that we should treat people. But it's really been found to be the key to both personal and professional success. This is etiquette coach Kelly Yates, known online as Lady etiquette. Do you think that people generally have good etiquette now? Or have we really kind of slacked off?

Kelley Yates 1:57

Oh, gosh, that's a great question. I think it's become a lazier society. And it's much more needed now than ever before. And there's a lot of interacting on social media. So when people see each other, they find it hard to look each other in the eye and have a conversation. It's more in demand now than ever before. In fact, I'm very busy.

Nick VinZant 2:19

Why is that? Like? How come you think that you're kind of services have ramped up?

Kelley Yates 2:24

Well, as the code is trending right now, I'm sure you've noticed on social media. There's a lot of people out there. Now talking about etiquette, which is a wonderful. But it's it's something that's classic, it's timeless, the code of polite behavior would never go out of style.

Nick VinZant 2:43

Why do you think it's important? Like, why did we develop to this?

Kelley Yates 2:47

Well, gosh, could you imagine if we went around in our daily life without saying, Please, and thank you, and just being rude to people? We wouldn't get very far would we? And if when we use the code of polite behavior, we are successful. And that's why people come to Lady etiquette because they want to be successful in their social business life.

Nick VinZant 3:10

Where do people kind of when they when we look at etiquette, like where do people generally mess up?

Kelley Yates 3:16

Um, I think being impatient, not being courteous to people. just rude, rude people, they mess up, they don't take the time to learn, you know, to be polite and considerate of other people's needs.

Nick VinZant 3:33

Do you think that like, Are our people going to have trouble once we finally kind of get out of all of these zoom meetings? And yes, zoom interactions and that kind of stuff? Have we kind of forgotten how to interact with each other?

Kelley Yates 3:48

Yes, I think I think a lot of people have what's never what what is time? This is people. Do you want to have a conversation? And, you know, that gives you confidence and inspires people around you?

Nick VinZant 4:01

Uh, no, I would agree. Right? Like if somebody says, Thank you to me, then I'm generally much nicer to them. Yes, it is. Here's how kind of manners fuel everything right?

Kelley Yates 4:12

Absolutely. It's a reflection. Especially with children, you have to start them off young, because children are a reflection of us. You know, you can start from a toddler, you know, when you you are feeding the toddler, their lunch in the high chair. The toddler is looking at you. They make make eye contact, they smile at you, they giggle and when you feed them, you know, you get them to say please and thank you and that's where it starts. And children watch everything.

Nick VinZant 4:46

Can we go too far though, right where like, everything has to be this kind of I'll use the word I don't mean it but like stuffy, super kind of traditional all kinds of stuff. Like, how did that? How does that kind of traditional fancy way? meld with the modern, more relaxed way? Like, how can we do that?

Kelley Yates 5:10

That's a great question, Nick. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about advocate, as years ago, did was more for high society. And especially if you went to a finishing school, it was where high society attended. But modern etiquette really is for everybody. It's not, I've got all kinds of people come into lady etiquette, for example, I have people from an elderly lady, to a four year old to a tattoo artist. And I think that's wonderful. And that really is what modern etiquette is about. It's for everybody. It's not just for high society, these strong interpersonal skills just give you more confidence to be successful in your life. And that's what it's all about.

Nick VinZant 5:57

How did you get into this?

Kelley Yates 5:59

I guess, it was a gradual process started right from when I was a child, I think I remember being captivated. We were all huddled around the TV, my family, watching Princess Diana's wedding. And I was just enchanted, you know, with all the pomp and protocol. And, of course, it was such a worldwide event, everybody was talking about it. And I think that really planted the seed. And then when I grew up, I started working for aristocratic families. I was a nanny, I was a real life Mary Poppins. And I taught English. And I travelled extensively, I worked in the Middle East, and, you know, saw how important it was to watch, you know how different cultures interact and see the difference, you know, because every country has their own code, polite behavior. Then, when I came to America, I started working in the five star hospitality industry. And that led to VIP hospitality. So I've had very unique opportunities in life, that led to finding lead yet. For the most part, it was watching, observing successful people, you know, interact. And one common thing they all have in common is that they, they understand etiquette. And I believe that without a doubt, that is why they are successful.

Nick VinZant 7:35

Do you think that's the etiquette in and of itself? Or are they successful? Because there's kind of an organization in a system that they have applied to their lives, right, like they do things the way that they should be done? Is it etiquette? Or is it general mindset behind the etiquette that you think has made those people successful?

Kelley Yates 7:56

It's everything, yes. But you cannot be successful in life. If you You are not polite to people. And you have these strong interpersonal skills. If you think of all the world leaders, or the most successful business people, that's one common thing they have. They have they share is they are able to be they they have success, because they have good communication skills. They're able to inspire people with their charm. And that's what etiquettes about. It's almost like magic. You know, it's charm. It's, it's not. It's not like a magic wand, though. It's not the fairy godmother effect, but it is this magic ripple effect. But it takes work and dedication and passion.

Nick VinZant 8:49

Is it difficult to learn the things that people should be doing to have proper etiquette? Or is it difficult? Just to remember to do them to have the patience to kind of do it right. Like is it so I guess it's difficult to learn this skill? Or is it difficult to practice this skill?

Kelley Yates 9:06

No nose at all. It's it's I make it fun. Actually, if you have noticed on my Instagram, I show some reels, what not to do and what to do. And my classes are fun to keep people's attention. And it's not difficult at all You just but you have to practice it. I'm not a believer at all. I don't like that saying fake it till you make it for example. You know, you really have to really be real. And otherwise people will know if you you are being disingenuous.

Nick VinZant 9:39

When people come to you like what we've kind of talked about etiquette in the broad sense, but what are they generally looking for, like, how do I act at dinner? What should I do at a business meeting? Like what are people generally looking for when they come to you?

Kelley Yates 9:55

Well, we we offer a lot of different classes, you know, dining etiquette, childrens etiquette, you name it. But the recent trend it seems to be I get a lot of leaders asking me how to be more feminine. And I do have a poisoned department class that I designed to help women feel more feminine and confident. I teach leaders departments as well, it's adequate. Are you familiar with DEP?

Nick VinZant 10:22

The word I have heard people say it, but I've always been too afraid to ask what it was because I feel like I should have known what DEP is

Kelley Yates 10:32

yes. Well, it's, it's very important. It's your courage, your posture? How do you walk with grace, how you sit, how you carry yourself gracefully? And it and it works hand in hand with etiquette?

Nick VinZant 10:45

Why would now why would so many people be interested in that? Like, what what is it about? But like, obviously, you're talking about, you know, the when somebody kind of walks into a room, why would a lot of women be coming to you for that?

Kelley Yates 10:57

Well, I have noticed as a woman, there's been, you know, the last, this has been coming out for the last 30 years, you know, very extreme feminists pushing back on femininity, and making women less confident in business, you know, thinking that a woman has to be successful in business, if she had cuts her hair short, wears a man suit, when that's not the case, it can actually have a very negative effect on a woman and take her confidence away. What I have observed is that a woman is much more successful in business when she embraces her femininity, which is very empowering. You will see those of the successful women, you know, you don't, I'm not talking about being a bimbo, far from it. And you don't have to be, you know, certainly a man in business, you have to be, you know, smart, feminine. And it's wonderful nowadays, we do have women that, you know, can be a CEO, run for president. But the fact of the matter is a woman still wants to be treated like a lady and women are interested in femininity, because femininity is it's very empowering. And it gives a woman confidence and inspires people around them.

Nick VinZant 12:21

Do you think that now is that? Is that a backlash against kind of the feminism movement? Or is that more just a case of like, Look, over time, we kind of got away from these things?

Kelley Yates 12:31

Well, I guess back in the 1950s, I would have been a traditional, more traditional feminist, you know, but nowadays, it's become quite extreme. But now people are realizing, you know, we still need to be women.

Nick VinZant 12:48

When when a man comes to you, what are men generally looking for?

Kelley Yates 12:53

Well, everything you know, of course, some recently I've had a lot of inquiry about chivalry, I do. Teach chivalry, chivalrous, demeanor, decorum. Dating etiquette, how to act on a date. What to expect. dining etiquette, business etiquette.

Nick VinZant 13:18

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Absolutely. Go ahead. In what place? Do you generally see people lacking the most etiquette and I'm not talking about like a physical location, but in like an aspect of their lives? Where would you say that people lack the most etiquette

Kelley Yates 13:37

department? Actually, I would say because a lot of people don't know how to carry themselves properly. And there's a lot of people you know, that walk you see them walking, for example, like Charlie Chaplin with the feet out, or they walk with their feet in like a pigeon. You will notice it now. soon as you walk into a supermarket, you're walking through the mall. Just observe people how they walk, I can help people within this area. And it can really change people's lives. because it not only helps you with your health, but your confidence.

Nick VinZant 14:12

What's kind of like big for a man or for a woman what's like your advice for like a quick fix, right? Like, Hey, I walk this way, what's the quick fix for men and women.

Kelley Yates 14:22

Try to walk in a straight line. a straight line, head up your chin parallel to the floor, shoulders back. And just take your time. Don't over swing your arms, like a propeller, or a bird getting ready to take flight. And you try to go the length of your foot with each step.

Nick VinZant 14:47

That seems kind of short for like for I guess when I'm thinking of myself walking. I feel like this kind of short for a man. Is that short for a man?

Kelley Yates 14:57

Well, if you want to pick up your speed That's perfectly fine. But I teach at lages. One one foot length. Okay,

Nick VinZant 15:07

so we talked about places where people have the least and what kind of place and again, not a physical place, but like an aspect where people generally pretty good,

Kelley Yates 15:16

people are getting more cognizant with their dining etiquette. Now, realize the importance of it, especially in business. You know, when people go out on business and they, they want to sit down and relax and get a business deal, and they don't want to be worried about where to put the napkin.

Nick VinZant 15:34

How important in your business of etiquette is being British? Because I feel I will feel like I would listen to somebody who is American a lot less. But since you're British, I feel like that's extra. Like, oh, oh, yeah. Does that help? Being British?

Kelley Yates 15:53

Yes, I'm not going to lie. It does help. They love the British accent. It's very popular in America. And it's a compliment. And, incidentally, I think this is what people are lacking nowadays, is giving a good compliment. And a lot of people don't know how to give a compliment. They actually compliment. For example, I often have people leaving comments on my Instagram. Oh, that's a beautiful dress. Or I love your hand back. But Doesn't it sound a lot nicer when you say? Oh, you look You look beautiful in that dress. You know if you're if you're wearing a nice suit. Oh, I love your suit neck. Doesn't this sound much better? Nick, you're looking very dapper today. I must say

Nick VinZant 16:47

it dies. Yeah. Cuz you're complimenting the person rather than the thing.

Kelley Yates 16:52

Exactly. They are complimenting that the object and not the purse. Yeah,

Nick VinZant 16:58

I can see why. Because you're basically saying like, as opposed to, Hey, your clothing that you have on is nice. You're saying you as a person made a good choice? Yes. And it makes people feel more special. What is your biggest pet peeve when you see when you see people doing things like what just drives you nuts? Like, oh, you can't do that.

Kelley Yates 17:23

I see a lot of people holding their wine glass the wrong way. Doesn't really drive me nuts. But it's very common. You see it all the time in the movies, for example. And I think when I watch people in the media, politicians, public speaking, I do see something that really annoys me. They're over gesturing their hands like this. They're very, very flamboyant. And it's so it's like, you know, the Italians, which is part of their culture. It's great for the Italians. But here, no, it's just over the top. You know, and that annoys me, especially when I'm watching people, you know, making public speaking you know, there's they are, you know, they could be so much more professional, if they just use their gestures, when they really want to emphasize something. And not constantly, like an over zelia salesperson that you see on a, you know, a bad TV commercial.

Nick VinZant 18:34

What is some bad etiquette that you do that you are trying to correct? Like, you know, you're not supposed to Lady etiquette, but you do it? Yes. You do.

Kelley Yates 18:48

What, gosh, you know, that's wonderful question. I don't want to tell you really, because nobody will come to me from business. No, no, seriously, no, I'm not perfect. You know, etiquette, it's a bit like yoga. You have to practice it every day and be real. Not disingenuous, because people will pick up on it. Especially children, they notice everything. But let's say what annoys me about myself. Sometimes I get very excited. And I can talk too much when I'm excited. I guess that's what it is. I can't talk until the cows come home

Nick VinZant 19:41

the one you know like I think you and I are in pretty good agreement about like the need for etiquette The one thing that I would wonder about though is like can you be can you become so proper, so prim and proper, that you kind of lose your personality?

Kelley Yates 19:57

Yes, well, I'm I'm still myself. I haven't, you know, a naughty side to me, but the etiquette keeps me balanced. It's not about being stiff at all. That's the biggest misconception with etiquette. It's about being confident and inspiring those around you to just be more kind, respectful, courteous, and graceful. It doesn't matter where you go in life, you know, etiquette is needed. And it's everywhere. It's you're surrounded with. If you look, the checkout clock in the grocery store, for example, you know, don't be so focused on your groceries when you're going through. Look up. Look, look at the grocery at the checkout clerk. Thank him or her?

Nick VinZant 20:46

What is the biggest controversy in etiquette? Like you and your etiquette colleagues? Like what are you guys? What's the big controversy? In etiquette? Is there a controversy? Like, oh, you should do this? No, no, I think you should do this.

Kelley Yates 21:03

Just the misconception that it's only for a certain class of people. etiquette is classless it's for everybody. controvert controversy? Oh, I guess you could say that, you know, there's certain mindset that believe that etiquette is you always have to be nice, perfect. You know, you you know, it doesn't mean that if somebody is bullying you, for example, you know, you don't have to be nice. Now, of course, you don't bully them back. But you don't you know, ethic, it's not about being a doormat. And etiquette gives you confidence to stand up for yourself. In any given situation.

Nick VinZant 21:55

That kind of fee feeds into our next question. Best way to politely tell someone to eff off. Oh, yes, I love that one. Are you you're saying it nicely, but they know what you're really saying? Like, what's the best way to tell somebody that

Kelley Yates 22:15

but it depends on what they're, they're they're doing as well. You know, to annoy you. Um, you know, it's there. For example, if there you have to, we have to have an example here, don't wait. Because there's so many scenarios. If somebody is making fun of the way you look, in more ways than one, then I would say to Shay, you know, I would look at them, perhaps and say you might want to take a look in the mirror before you judge other people. And work away.

Nick VinZant 22:53

Good burn. It's good one.

Kelley Yates 22:56

Walk away, you know, we have a saying in England is while you are beneath contempt,

Nick VinZant 23:02

at what point in an email chain? Do I no longer have to use the person's name? Like Do I have to say, Hi, Kelly. Hi, Kelly. Hi, kill every single email, or what point can I drop off? Is this question?

Kelley Yates 23:15

Yes, yes. You don't need to. It's always nice to use the person's name. But after the, you know, the third email, you know, it's a reply. So you don't need to use the name. You're just having a conversation.

Nick VinZant 23:29

Another another one that came in. If a meeting starts right out if a meeting starts, let's let's use this one. We you and I recorded this at 10 o'clock. Should I be right at 10 o'clock? Or should I actually be a little bit early or a little bit late?

Kelley Yates 23:46

I would say minimum five minutes before for a zoom meeting. I myself like to be there 10 to 15 minutes. That's what I recommend. But minimum five minutes before

Nick VinZant 23:59

that. That's really all the questions that I have. What's kind of coming up next for you. Where can people reach you? I know you offer classes.

Kelley Yates 24:06

Yes, we have online classes, children's classes, poisoned deportment for leaders. And I have an afternoon tea class which is online. We have video coaching. I'm very busy with video coaching. And I can be reached at the lady etiquette on Instagram. Or I'm on YouTube at lady etiquette. I did want lady etiquette I confess for Instagram but it was already taken.

Olympic Race Walker Robyn Stevens

Forget what you’ve seen on TV because Race Walking is nothing like what it seems. Robyn Stevens is a 14x National Champion who just got back from the Tokyo Olympics. We talk Race Walking, the secret to swinging your hips and getting annoyed at slow walkers. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Ways to Get Around.

Robyn Stevens: 01:47ish

Pointless: 28:36ish

Top 5: 52:13ish

www.WalknRobyn.com (Robyn Stevens Website)

www.instagram.com/robyndesign (Robyn Stevens Instagram)

www.facebook.com/dreamngold (Robyn Stevens Facebook)

Interview with Olympic Race Walker Robyn Stevens

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant coming up in this episode, fast walking, and slow moving,

Robyn Stevens 0:21

I got there a few days after the opening, we had to miss the opening ceremonies. But I watched them from home which with my mom, which is really special because I used to watch all the Olympics growing up with her, our body are using all of the muscles, we're engaging all of the muscles but a sprinter, a middle distance runner and a distance runner are utilizing but all at the same time. And then our turnover is as quick as it bout of like between a 408 100 meter runner, I'm totally walk pretty fast. I know I get really annoyed when I'm in the shopping, you know, the grocery store and like, Oh, yeah, I can't. It's a big pet peeve.

Nick VinZant 1:02

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So I don't think I've ever had my preconceived notions about something shattered more than by our first guest. Because whatever you think about race walking, speed walking, it is not, not what I thought it was. It is so much more interesting, and so much more physically demanding than I ever would have thought just by watching it on TV. Our first guest is a national champion and Olympian who just got back from Tokyo. This is race Walker, Robyn Stevens. So you're just back from the Olympics. How was it?

Robyn Stevens 1:50

It was great, obviously different from most years. But since it's my first Olympics, I didn't know any different. I think we're the only event that could have spectators just because we were outdoor and there's a lot of space. So it was really cool seeing all the locals come out and hearing them cheer and it's a good experience.

Nick VinZant 2:11

When did you arrive to the opening ceremonies were on Friday, like when did you get there?

Robyn Stevens 2:15

I got there a few days after the opening, so we had to miss the opening ceremonies. But I watched them from home, which with my mom, which is really special because I used to watch all the Olympics growing up with her. So it was kind of cool to see an opening ceremony that I'm supposed to be walking in for the Olympics I made but with my mom's I could see her crying and all excited. So that was that was like a different type of special.

Nick VinZant 2:42

One of the things that kind of jumped out at me and if Wikipedia and online is correct, that you were a little bit older for most than most first time Olympians is is racewalking a sport that kind of is conducive to that.

Robyn Stevens 2:56

Yeah, so racewalking we don't usually hit our peak until late mid 30s to early 40s. Yeah, and, um, I don't know I. So I took a few years off from the sport I retired in 2004 came back in 2000, officially 2016. And what encouraged me to come back was I had learned that one of the Olympians that I had watched, I didn't realize she had made her Olympic debut at 42. So when I learned that that inspired me to come back because I was thinking, Oh, yeah, it's too late. Because I was also before I retired, I was a runner and a race Walker and nationally ranked, but in both so I was in that runner mindset of Oh, okay. Yeah, like, it's, it's obviously too late. And then when I learned what her age was, it encouraged me like, okay, you know, we'll see what we'll see. We'll explore. But in in race walk, it's pretty common. I mean, for Spain, there's a his use Garcia, who has made every World Championships and Olympics since he was a youth. And he was 52, I believe, at the Olympics this year.

Nick VinZant 4:07

What is it about it that people can continue to do that so much later in life, athletically speaking,

Robyn Stevens 4:13

I think there's a couple things a lot of people, at least in America haven't heard of it. It's not it's more prevalent in southern America, in Europe and in, in all over China and Japan, it's super popular. But I think it's also because it's low impact. And so the body can handle a lot more and recover faster. Because our Olympic distances up until this year was 20k and 50k remain. So the 50k had two options, the 50 and the 20. The 50 is longer than the marathon. And then the women have the 20k. So we have a lot of we're doing a lot of distance, and we're probably doing that every other month. Sometimes depending if we're really active with the World Challenge events, then we're going to be Doing that often now, you'll see like, I've read a lot in magazines where they're like, Oh, you know, I can't believe this marathoner is going to do you know, two, two marathons back to back a month apart? And I think it's because yeah, they're they're absorbing so much power. Yeah, on their knees and their joints and everything where it's not unheard of, for us to be able to do that just because we can. We're putting our heartbreak. It's just as high as a runner. We're doing its justice, like, we're asking a lot of our body, but because of the low impact, or able to bounce back a lot quicker.

Nick VinZant 5:31

So the demand is the same, but the toll is not correct. Yeah, that's well, that's really interesting. So how did you get into race walking,

Robyn Stevens 5:41

I started in junior high, I had ran across country racing Dixon, and had a beat a little boy that in the race, that youth coach had wanted to humble. And so she came over and she was a club coach, and I had only Ranbir, junior high, you know, for the school system, I never heard of club track and field. And she came over and she was just like, Hey, you know, I run a club team. I'd love for you to join. If you stick with me, I believe that you have enough talent that you could make an Olympic team and even get into any college that you could ever dream of. And that was enough for me because I'd always wanted to go to college, and I'm the youngest in my family. So I was doing everything to keep you know, the way that a student and yeah, volunteer for clubs, and I would do everything to cover my bases in case they didn't have enough money left over for me, though, my mom's like, I would have always made sure. But you know, just in case, just in case, right, yeah. Yeah. So when she said that, I was like, oh, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'll join. And since it's a club team, they, they purchase, all those events, you know, are going to have all of the events that are in the Olympics. So she would teach all of her athletes, every single event that's in the Olympics, so all of us learned throwing all of us learn race walk, all of us learn, you know, the only two that she couldn't teach us was hammer thrown pole vault, because there was no access to the the items on steeplechase because there was no staples. But we all learned race walk. And that's how I learned about it. And she would i would do the the mile the 800 the four by four and the race walk, but there was so much time between that 800 in the mile and the beginning of the race and of track needs cousin youth track take? Yeah. Yeah, that I would get really bored. And so that my muscles when get, you know, lazy or the two mile or get stagnant, she would have me jump in the race walk so that it could keep me limber, and, you know, flexible, two mile and not getting too bored.

Nick VinZant 7:46

No, like, why are you a good race Walker,

Robyn Stevens 7:48

I think I just picked up on it from all the years of dance that I had done. I started dance class when I was two. And when she discovered me, um, I wasn't competitive dancer, I was doing, you know, competing in the area in the local area. And I think just with all of that just years of, of dance, I was able to take to it, it was nothing. It didn't feel any different from you know, like, a lot of people are like, Oh, don't you want to run or? Or, you know, how do you race walk like that doesn't make you want to just break into a run? I'm like, no, it just it feels like a like an athletic endurance dance. So it just feels it definitely I don't get it confused with running.

Nick VinZant 8:31

It's it's one of those things that now that you mentioned it like there is some swiveling of the hips there, right?

Robyn Stevens 8:36

Yeah, yeah. So like a former coach of mine, Susan Armenta, she used to say, at a madang game, but if I didn't have enough hip flexor, to remind me just to relax into the hips,

Nick VinZant 8:47

is it just walking fast, like if I was in a hurry, and I want to walk fast, it's the same way that I would walk faster, is there a whole different kind of technique to it?

Robyn Stevens 8:56

Oh, there's a whole technique to it. So usually, if we're going to teach youth how to or beginners will say like, just pretend that you're at the pool. And they say, you know, the snow cone place just opened up and everybody's jumping out there, like don't run, you know, walk, don't run, and you're trying to hurry over to it. So that's how you start, you know, walk as fast as you can to get there. But to not get thrown out of a race. There's two rules, you have to land with a straight leg, and then keep it straight until it passes underneath the hip. And then but one foot has to be on the ground at all times. And that's how it different sheets from running obviously. So you can get sometimes confused because when you say that people will start walking like a Frankenstein. And, um, but that's where I like to just incorporate the dance if you're thinking of them, but I am gay. You land at the straight leg, drop that hip, let it pass as you're pulling that back, you know, your other leg through and then you can bend that last one as you're straightening the other one and then that's how you get that that smoother ride. them,

Nick VinZant 10:00

it seems like a sport that would be easy for somebody to cheat.

Robyn Stevens 10:04

No. So we have minimum five judges on a course at all times, unlike the distance running, we have to be on. So for 20 Ks, it's going to be a 1k course. And for the 50k 35k can either be a 1k or 2k course. So that way that there's always a judge that can see us and there's five to seven judges at all times, they have to have certification, the proper rolled athletic certification, at least three of them have to be like a level three, and an A world athletic certified. And then there has to be by that. So for the one foot off the ground, there has to be by the judges I and there's like a fourth of a second that the human eye can't see. So if you see if you slow down videos of professional racewalkers, if you've like, watched the Olympics, and you slow it down, and you see a side profile profile of us, or if you see pictures, you might see like, oh, they're cheating there, I see them, they're just a little bit off and right, not by the judge. So that's the key is like by the judges, I because they're not going to be able to see that seconds. Now we're not doing that on purpose that just happens naturally at the speeds that we're going and it's just going to go up so you can there's ways to get these, it's just like soccer, or you can get dq except for in soccer, you have to be misbehaving. And, you know, pissed off the referee, and re swacch we're not talking necessarily but we can, you know, the the judge has two paddles, they can give us the yellow is a warning, that is a courtesy, they don't have to give us that. That's just to let us know, we're we're in danger of getting red carded, and if we don't fix it, they're gonna read cardus on each judge can only give an athlete one red card. And that's how they they keep from over bias because you know, they like another athlete. And then three red cards, if they're not using a penalty zone, will dq the athlete, if they're using the penalty zone, like at the Olympics this year, some people may have noticed, you know, we had a strong pack of the top six. And then all of a sudden, there's this heat, like all this drama at the end of the race, where the person who was supposed to be in third, she already had two red cards. And she but she really wanted that second place. So she pushed it and she got pit lanes. So the pit lane, they don't always have to use but they had decided to use that for and this is going to become more normal for the Olympics. And that's where she's put in a pit penalty box for two minutes. So virtually two minutes gets added to her time as you sitting there and that that pit box. So she ended up 11th. So she was a favorite to you. She's from Brazil, she's actually a friend of mine. She was a favorite to metal. And then because she really wanted that. So for her, you got to appreciate that grit. She just pushed it a little too much and then got pit lanes. And then same with the gold medal favorite. She got she had red, two red cards going in got pit lane, and then she ended up third was supposed are supposed to be second. but ended up third she was the gold medal favorite. And so like there's so those rules make it so it's hard to tea because there's people watching us all the time. And the last 100 meters you can get dq whether or not you have previous red cards. So that's why you're not gonna see too many of us. Like this is one of the things I love to doing when I was running competitively is I love strong kick. So I still like to do that with race walk. But I have to be really careful because judges, if you if you switch if you significantly change your pace, and because if you change your pace, your technique might change a little bit too. And they don't like that. That's what I like about it. Because it's a it's such a technical strategy type sport, too, you have to have strategy, and you can't all you sometimes have to sacrifice. Even if you have a lot in the tank physically, you have to sacrifice that or sacrifice a higher place just to stay in the race. Because it could mean if you sprint at the end, it could mean that that chief judge doesn't like how you look. And they'll just throw you out that last time your leader.

Nick VinZant 14:20

Oh, yeah. So you could be like, technically perfect, exactly how you're doing it for the entire time. And then if you're in a tight race at the end, and you just speed up a little he can just go euro. Wow. So you really got to like maintain your whole speed. That's kind of

Robyn Stevens 14:39

like I'm doing a constant body scan the entire time. There's no checking out mentally,

Nick VinZant 14:44

you know, you're talking about it with these people who are the best in the world and they're still getting red cards during these races. Is it one of those kinds of things where people are gonna push it and see how much they can push it. Like you want to be right say that there's a line and you Want to be right up against that line without crossing it? Right? Because it would seem like if you perfected a technique, then you wouldn't ever be in jeopardy of getting fined for it or getting penalized for it. But then because people are getting penalized for it all the time, they must be like pushing right up against that all the time. Oh, is that how it works?

Robyn Stevens 15:18

Yeah, we're pushing the last part of our training is just figuring out where we can, how much and what that feels like to push that line and know that we're, we're technically sound and most of us at that level where we are technically sound, but, you know, judges are human and, and different judges have their preference on what they like, and what they consider good technique there, you know, so, you know, we might be fine in one country, but then another country's judges, like they interpret the rules a little bit differently. It's really not that like, if you're going those speeds, you're, you're probably going to get carbs, because you we are going super fast. I mean, we're going sub seven, the women are going sub 715 per mile pace, the men are going sub seven minute pace, you know about 650. So we're we are going fast. So one of the things that will push for is how you know, it's almost like you've aced it, if you can walk, you know, the two cards is almost like a badge of it's not a badge of honor. But it's like, it's like you know, you you know you're pushing yourself. Because if you're not getting any cards, maybe you know, it's almost like Well, are you pushing yourself enough?

Nick VinZant 16:32

It's that old saying like, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Robyn Stevens 16:37

Because we're not cheating on purpose. Like the cards are all pushing it a little bit.

Nick VinZant 16:41

Yeah, yeah, you're bumping up against that edge. Now

Robyn Stevens 16:44

that these they're trying to figure out for myself, because I crossed the finish line was so much energy still left in the tank? Because I'm trying I'm still trying to figure out what it feels like to push that edge with the energy that I have. So

Nick VinZant 16:59

no is can I ask how, um, how tall are you? I'm just under five, three. So is that is that an ideal height? For a race? Walker is like something Oh, you'd be you would be the best in the world. If you were only five, four, like you're too tall for a race Walker? Is there? Is there a certain body type for it?

Robyn Stevens 17:17

I'm not really I think the shorter tend to do better, just because the taller athletes are gonna stick out more. So if they're particularly bouncing in their spec, they're gonna stand out to the judge because they're towering over the shorter. But if you're technically sound, that's no big deal. So

Nick VinZant 17:35

it's kind of like a being smaller as a blendin advantage as opposed to like a bio.

Robyn Stevens 17:39

Yeah, because we can have a quicker turnover. So I guess, because our fastest walkers in the world are for the minister Japanese, for the women, it's the Chinese. And then South America has a lot of strong walkers. Spain has a really strong program. And a lot of a lot of that is like we're shorter. You know, like, those cultures are shorter in height, or like my height. So you know, between my height and maybe 554455. So are the women. Um, so I think it does help. I mean, there are successful tall athletes though,

Nick VinZant 18:20

right? It's harder, it's like, not this quite the same, but it's like gymnastics where it's definitely beneficial to be a certain size, right? kind of thing. So

Robyn Stevens 18:29

yeah, I mean, I am someone who believes that if you have a will and you have a passion for you know, being good at a certain discipline, it doesn't matter what you look like you're gonna be you're gonna be able to pull it off.

Nick VinZant 18:42

Are you heart ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions, sir. Do racewalkers trash talk each other?

Robyn Stevens 18:51

Oh, probably more on the men's side. I believe the women are more. We just focus on what we need to do. So we're either going to be friends or we were just in our own little we just kind of keep to ourself on race day. But the men definitely like to have like playful, playful banter with each other and,

Nick VinZant 19:09

um, can you spot a good Walker out in public? like can you see somebody like rush rushing to catch a bus? That goo they got good form?

Robyn Stevens 19:17

Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's how a lot of us racewalkers who ended up in the sport got, you know, headhunted is you know, a coach sauce or someone saw that, oh, you would make a great race Walker. I see it all the time, when when we're training out on you know, on the trails, and the bike trails. Sometimes kids or other people will try to try to mimic it or try to, you know, go along with us. And there are times where I'm like, wow, actually, that's really good.

Nick VinZant 19:43

You should do a pretty good

Robyn Stevens 19:45

you're doing pretty well. And I had worked with some some other people who were just wanting to learn it, but uh, probably weren't, wasn't like thinking anything about it like seriously, and then I saw them like, wow, you know, If you weren't so successful at what you're doing, you know, if you weren't such a successful actress, you'd probably be in pretty good or a soccer but you're making way more money as an actress than what we make.

Nick VinZant 20:11

Can you make a living straight off of racewalking?

Robyn Stevens 20:14

You can a very humble living. I'm very, very humble. So like, the average that we might make is, at most, and on average, the most that we might make is 25k. really couldn't live in Silicon Valley on it. But it would be like really living like a conservative way. Like we're making like 2025 to maybe 50k with the bonuses during Olympic year. So like with a, you know, with that, but it's all in it's not salary, we don't get salary. So it's all based on winning, what would be your top speed? Like you're going to sprint? All out? Like how fast can you How fast can you walk? Ah, we don't normally race anything faster than a mile. And once we hit the elite level, it's not often we're going to be doing anything less than that. 3k like two miles. But there is like, once a year, there's the Melrose games, where we'll do a mile and so that's the only thing I can judge off of the fastest that a male is gone is a 531. And the fastest a woman is gone is 618.

Nick VinZant 21:29

That's like 10 or 11 miles an hour. And if I'm going trail walking or something like that, like I'm hauling ass at three miles an hour. That's incredibly you know, pretty quick.

Robyn Stevens 21:41

So what's interesting for a lot of like, when, so our body are using all of the muscles were engaging all of the muscles, but a sprinter, a middle distance runner and a distance runner are utilizing but all at the same time. And then our turnover is as quick as it bout of like between a 408 100 meter runner.

Nick VinZant 22:03

Wow.

Robyn Stevens 22:05

So actually orders race walk really well. A lot of sprinters like take to it quickly.

Nick VinZant 22:12

Just because of the turnover ratio. Yeah. I was really thinking that it was gonna be like five miles an hour, which would be a 12 minute mile, but it's basically double that you're talking like 1112 miles an hour walking?

Robyn Stevens 22:24

Yeah, cuz, you know, during the 20k, I averaged about 715 per mile.

Nick VinZant 22:30

Wow. Yeah. So that's like seven and a half miles an hour. Do you? Okay, next question. Do you generally walk fast everywhere you go.

Robyn Stevens 22:39

I'm told I do. I never really noticed. But my, you know, I'm short. So my dad always seemed super tall to me, because he's six one. And so when we would go camping, and hiking, we do a lot of camping and hiking. Growing up. I was always constantly trying to keep up with them. Because I talk a lot. And I'm trying to, you know, tell them my story that I couldn't keep up with them. So my best friend Ashley, she always just likes to she'll laugh about it because people always she's shorter than me. And people are always like, why do you walk so fast? And he's like, Well, my best friend is a professional race Walker. And I always have to try to keep up with her in the hallways in high school. So I think the key is like if you're around someone taller than you, I think you're just going to naturally be a faster Walker everywhere because you're just trying to keep up with the taller walkers. So I'm told I walk pretty fast. I know I get really annoyed when I'm in the shopping. You know, the grocery

Nick VinZant 23:39

store? Oh, yeah, I can't. It's a big pet peeve. Oh my god, that would be awful. If you were like walking in a crowd like, Oh my god,

Robyn Stevens 23:49

I can't stand proud. If they can't walk fast. You know, I don't like the the idle, especially the packs that walk in like groups of five or Oh, yeah, they're all on their phones. And they're just walking super slow. It's like can you walk single file or learn how to walk faster?

Nick VinZant 24:05

We asked the same question to both a decathlete and some ping pong Olympians that we had on. Where do you feel like racewalking ranks in the Olympic hierarchy hierarchy of sports? Like in my mind, you're going to have 100 meter sprint like that's, that's the Olympic sport, right? That is the thing. And then at the bottom, you're going to have archery or something. Right? Like where do you feel like so you're talking about all the events? Not Where do you think that like race walking, but in terms of like the coolness factor, like if this was a Olympic high school? Where do the race walkers rank?

Robyn Stevens 24:44

In my mind, or where do they actually rank because that's pretty low in in most people Unless Unless you're from Japan, or from Spain or from parts of you know, South America or from Russia. You know? racewalking is ranked pretty low. But I think it's because. But a lot of people, most people don't understand what's going on. And once you understand what's going on, it's really fascinating. And it's really interesting. And that's why I've gained a new appreciation for baseball because I used to think baseball was super boring. And I'm like, how can people think race walks boring when people watch like four hours of this just people standing around on a field, I also think that with race walk at the elite level, I mean, since we're using all the muscles of like a sprinter, middle distance, and distance, and distance runner, our build is going to be similar to a dancer or no, I used to get mistaken for a gymnast when I was younger. And I just think that like the musculature is just really aesthetically beautiful. And when you see when you see it done, right, it's gorgeous. Just seeing what the body can do when it's finally trained.

Nick VinZant 26:01

So that's pretty much all the questions that I have what's kind of coming up next for you.

Robyn Stevens 26:06

So next, we have a possibly depends on the Delta variant like, Yeah, what happens with that, we have a 10k, in quotes equality in Mexico. And we were supposed to do one in Monterey that got cancelled because of the COVID. And then, after that, and November, we have the men's national 35k, because the women already had ours in February or January, February. Normally, in January, we had to postpone it to February. So we have the men's 35k that mix getting used to or getting ready for. And at that race, they'll either have another 35k just to open one for the women to qualify for worlds, or a 20k just for for us to do for points because now everything's about either the super a standard or qualifying for by ranking. So you have to hit a certain time for quality ranking position in the world. So So that'll be in November that we're planning for the second week of November in San Diego area. And then January will be the men's and women's 35k nationals for 2022. Wow.

Nick VinZant 27:21

So that's what's next. I missed this one who is the Michael Jordan of racewalking. Michael Jordan of race walk. Like who's better? Who's the best? The best ever?

Robyn Stevens 27:34

In my eyes, it's gonna be his Seuss Garcia of Spain. Because, like he is the true goat of race walk, because in my eyes, because I mean, some people would argue that is Jefferson Perez. Some people might argue that, you know, it's somebody more current, but I think that will his use Garcia is correct. I mean, he was at the Olympics at 52. He's made every Olympic team in every world seen. He's been in the top like, I think his first one was in 1990. It was a couple years after Nick was born in 1990 No, I think it was 1991 or whatever. But I mean, he's been doing that ever since. And he's always in the top 30 like now because he's in the top 30 now, but back then it was like the top eight.