Cult Survivor Daniella Mestyanek Young
Daniella Mestyanek Young spent more than a decade in the infamous “Children of God” religious cult. Now, she’s here to tell her story. We talk why people join cults, the extreme difficulty of leaving a cult and the growing influence of cults in America. Then, it’s Cubans and Reubens vs. Grilled Cheese and Peanut Butter and Jelly as we countdown the Top 5 Sandwiches.
Daniella Mestyanek Young (aka Knitting Cult Lady): 01:14
Pointless: 46:02
Top 5 Sandwiches: 01:09:52
Daniella Mestyanek Young Website
Interview with Cult Survivor and Cult Expert Daniella Mestyanek Young
Nick VinZant 0:15
Nick, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode cults and sandwiches,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 0:23
because it shows you someone walking themselves into a cult with their eyes wide open. Every person who has ever like studied and defined cults says, you know, a few interesting things, one of them being like all cults are ultimately the same. Now, I think with the internet, it has given, like any niche ideology or world view, the opportunity to find people that they can bring under it. I
Nick VinZant 0:54
want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. So I want to get right to our first guest. This is cult expert and cult survivor, Daniela young, also known as the knitting cult lady, what to you make something a cult?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 1:17
You know, it's funny. I always say that, like, I hate definitions of cults as a cult baby, because I know there's like, more to it, so, like, even before even my own definition, I just ask, like, what are we trying to say when we say the word cult? And I think what we're trying to say is that an individual has come under coercive control, and so to me, like a cult is a group that is coercing and manipulating you in order to get your labor
Nick VinZant 1:52
as someone who grew up in one Do you feel like your definition or perception of what a cult Is is different than the kind of academic definition that people would usually have. Yes,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 2:04
I just think it's the next generation. Literally, one of the things that I think I bring to the table is growing up in it, right? So, like, even though you've studied it for 40 years. I've been speaking this language since birth.
Nick VinZant 2:24
Yeah, it seems like the kind of definition that can really kind of apply to anything. We just only apply it to certain things. So
Daniella Mestyanek Young 2:33
that's also true, right? And I say like, I'm not the deity that names cults. That deity is the media, and they only get named when we can measure the damage in bodies, right, whether that is, like raped or dead or branded. But a cult is just an extreme form of group. You
Nick VinZant 2:54
know, it's never what someone is doing, it's always who is doing it, in some sense, right? Like, that's not a cult because I'm in it, right? Because you're in it,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 3:04
yeah? So my joke is, who joins a cult, not me, right? You know, and it, but also, every person who has ever like studied and defined cult says, you know, a few interesting things, one of them being like all cults are ultimately the same, and two, being that, like, it's about it's about labor, right? And so it's just about, like, getting you to sacrifice yourself, to give labor. And then a third thing that is really important and really missed, at least in the cultural discussion in America, is it like it? It is not about what they believe. Every cult gives you a worldview, but it's not about what you believe. You can believe the bonkers things and not be a cult because you're not coercing and manipulating people, or you can believe some very reasonable, rational things, and be a cult because you're coercing and manipulating people. I think
Nick VinZant 4:06
the big question that people always have, like when we talk about cults, is like, how do you how do people get into this? So
Daniella Mestyanek Young 4:13
I'm going to tell you my grandfather's story. So my grandfather, in 1972 has a bad LSD trip and meets Satan. So the next day, he's sitting in a park with his head in his hands, as one does after they meet Satan. And he is a 23 year old, recent college graduate just got his CPA license, probably in a new place, I can't recall, and he's sitting with his head in his hands, and along comes the children of God, singing and dancing and inviting him to go with them. And this is what we call the seeker in. In in cult world, which is just someone who is seeking to answer life's big questions, and my main answer for like, people get into cults because cult recruiters go out and find them. They find the person sitting in the park with their head in their hands, and then they weaponize their discontent and then provide them with themselves as a solution. And we found, scholars have found two things that make you vulnerable to joining a cult, which is a lack of social connections, and being a seeker, right? And like, being a seeker is not a bad thing. The reason that cults pop up in times of social turmoil is because people are seeking, right? Like systems are broken, things aren't working. People are looking for new ways, and then predators are out there, and then the lack of social connections. Also, it doesn't have to be ever. It can just be like when you move when you're new at college, which is a huge time for people to get pulled into cults. And I really just think that in any space of personal transformation where you're going in and coming out a different person, predators are going to show up.
Nick VinZant 6:24
Would give me some leeway on this question, because I'm going to use very vague words, but to try to get to the part of what I'm asking, would you say that the people who get involved are they, quote, unquote, normal people, or were these kind of people on the fringes to begin with?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 6:45
So yes, and you know, this was, it's actually called deprivation theory, where we think that only, like non intelligent people or poor people, etc, are going into cults. And because we've had such mass cult movements like, we know that that doesn't hold up. A Harvard educated lawyer died on the side of the Branch Davidians at Waco, right? Like, uh, intelligent people all of the time and often are recruited specifically by cults. Because, like, I come off great, right? So if I'm explaining a cult to you, like you're probably falling for it, um, but it, it also can be about the social fringes, right? Because it's just like one cult scholar, Margaret singer, she just says, you kind of just gotta have two things going on at once. You know, be like displaced and depressed or lonely, you know, be, you know, just have gone through a big sort of life transition, and also be questioning something, you know, and you have these two factors sort of going on at once, and it's just easy to get pulled in. And I also think it's helpful if people realize that, like, it's a con. And the same way, I think we understand that anyone can be conned, yeah,
Nick VinZant 8:15
people who are lost and looking to be found,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 8:19
right? So, you know, this is one of the things it's like, if you're perfectly satisfied in life, a cult is going to have a hard time getting you and I actually think one of the good like anti cult practices, is to just have, like, gratitude reality checks in Your Life, because, again, cults like weaponize your discontent, right? Like they find that one thing that you're upset about, and then they make that seem larger than life, and then present themselves to you as the solution.
Nick VinZant 8:53
It always, you know, when you're watching the documentaries, right? Like it always seems like, how did you not see that this was not what you thought it was pretty early on, like, how do people not, how do people not pick up on it? Or do they pick up on it and ignore it? So
Daniella Mestyanek Young 9:12
it's both. It's both. And there's a book called scarred by Sarah Edmundson, who was one of the Nexium whistleblowers. And I think that book is really valuable because it shows you someone walking themselves into a cult with their eyes wide open. It's not that she doesn't see the red flags is that she sees them, but then she immediately rationalizes them with tools that are given to her by the cult. So, for example, everyone's seen this on social media, right? But all of a sudden, this beautiful person pops up, and they're like, only 10% of people are going to understand this, you know, like, only a special group of people's got going to understand. This. It's going to make you feel uncomfortable. It's going to make you push fast your comfort points. But it works, right? And then when you are there an hour later, going like, I don't know about this, you're like, well, they told me, right, right. They set the stage. They told me I would be special if I got it. They told me that I just need to push through, which is thought stopping, right? So it's like love bombing thought stopping, and getting you to buy into this. And another really, really, really big thing is called social proof. And, you know, human beings like we think we're rational, I think, therefore I am. And more and more empirical science we get shows us that, like, we're not rational. We make most of our decisions based on recency bias and social proof, right? So, like, what worked for us most recently and what everyone else around us is doing. And so if you're surrounded by a group of people, and someone is saying something completely bonkers, but nobody else is responding as though that's completely bonkers, everyone's going along with it, you know. And so the children of God, specifically, when they would put out some of their crazy doctrines, like, we're all going to have sex with Jesus. Now, they would literally issue, like, an edict that this has to be read with other members, right? And like, that was the practice. Anyway, you sit around, you have your devotions, you read out the doctrines. But if someone was like, watching the children or away, for some reason, they couldn't catch up on it by themselves. They had to be with another person. You
Nick VinZant 11:53
have to bounce it off of somebody else who kind of sets the narrative of is this crazy or not, right? And then some like, and then if everybody else is like, no, that's not weird, then you're like, Oh, I guess it's not weird, right? Yeah, the social cues aren't there
Daniella Mestyanek Young 12:08
and, and that's exactly so it's really easy to cross a line and like, that's how extremism works, right? Everybody thinks they would walk away when their guru says, Hey, sex with children is cool, right? And like, I'm from 10,000 people that did not walk away. But that's how it happens, right? It's like incrementally, and then by the time you get there, there's, there's just no lie, you just keep going.
Nick VinZant 12:42
That makes a lot of sense. I don't know if this question will make sense because, but I'm a big numbers person, so imagine that the entire time that somebody is in a cult is 10 days by day. What is somebody starting to think, this is a little strange, and then by day, what is somebody like? I should probably leave, if you could kind of condense that time into 10 days, the
Daniella Mestyanek Young 13:13
first day you're getting love bond and you're getting brought in through what is called an identity breaking indoctrination process. I write in my book that the Eros tour isn't might be a good example of this for the right person. And then after that, like after the love bombing phase, when you're kind of in, you're beginning to be walked in. Let's call that a three day process, and everything's changing really, really fast. You're being pulled into the machine. You're being worked you're being all of this stuff, but you're shutting down all of the weirdness. So the weirdness is happening the whole time. I think you're just shutting it down all of the time. And this is why I think nobody knows how to get people out of cults, because we buy into the indoctrination exactly the same as sort of an abusive relationship. And like an abusive relationship you spend, you know, so you're spending from day four to day seven, just like just trying to get back to the day one, love bombing, and believing that if you work hard and you do all the things, and you're pregnant and busy and tired and alone and hungry and all of the things that cults do to keep you going like you're gonna get back to perfect and then by day, like seven, I feel like, for a lot of People, you're like, Oh no, no, this is never gonna this is never gonna work. And there's something will happen that I call the crack in the brainwashing. A lot of times, this is a medical emergency for yourself or your child. And I think, in my opinion, I think that's because people realize that there's no amount of sex. Sacrifice that the cult will be like, Okay, you're done. Like, they'll just keep taking and keep taking and keep taking. And then, like, once you realize it's a cult, you're, you're on the way out, right? You're on your so so day, like, seven to 10, right? You're getting away, and you're dealing with all of the exit costs.
Nick VinZant 15:25
I'm always like, I, you know, the leaders of the cults, like, I could just never do that to somebody. I could never just do that to someone else. You know, knowing what you're doing, does the cult leader? Like, do they know what they're doing, like, how
Daniella Mestyanek Young 15:41
that is super important, because that's at the heart of it, right? When people ask me again, as a cult baby, like, how do you not build a cult? I'm like, just don't be a cult leader. You know, don't coerce people, don't manipulate people, don't accept free labor. You know, if you're gonna put yourself in a leadership position, take extra care. But then you said something else, does the cult leader know? Okay, yes. And I think this is another stereotype in the American understanding of cults that I like to call BS on, which is, oh, it started off good, and then it went bad. And I think this is a with all the love in the world, a cult joiner narrative, right? Because, like my people will swear that the children of God in the beginning was about love, faith in Jesus, but it wasn't. It was a pedophile, alcoholic man who wanted to build a following and play power games with people. You know, Jonestown was Jim Jones' people's temple. It was not about creating a racially integrated, harmonious church. He had been practicing being a cult leader since he was five years old. Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos decided when she was nine, after being raised by a narcissist and a dad from Enron, which I think was probably a single family cult. At nine years old, she decided she was going to invent something that changed the world, and then she set off to build something with a following. So like, I don't ever buy this narrative of it started off good, and then we just accidentally fell into perfect, coercive control. Cult leaders know what they're doing. They don't think of it in terms of, I'm building a cult, but they know they're manipulating. They've been practicing it. They've been studying other bad guys and other dictators. I always tell people like, just beware of anyone who knows a lot about the bad guys. And then they look at me and say, oh, so we should be scared of you. I say absolutely, because if I wanted to start a cult, I would know how. So maybe if I invite you to my compound, don't come. I
Nick VinZant 17:56
don't think I'm going to anybody's compound. If anybody ever invites me to any kind of compound or ranch, like, I'm just
Daniella Mestyanek Young 18:04
a big part of the new agey cults, right? It's, it's never come to my cult or even my compound. It's like, Come do an Ayahuasca ceremony, right? Come and do you live in Seattle? You know?
Nick VinZant 18:18
Yeah, there's some stuff. Like, ah, maybe going a little overboard with that. Does it seem to have transitioned kind of, when we look at cults in the mainstream, does it seem to have transitioned away from religion and more into kind of New Age philosophies? Yeah.
Daniella Mestyanek Young 18:35
I mean, the world is transitioning away from religion right now, and especially America, we're experiencing the largest walking away of religion in history. They're calling it the fourth Great Awakening. But what I think is super important to understand is a religion is a worldview, and cults always, always, always, give you a worldview. And the cult leader, this is usually part of the pre cult preparation process. They're forming their worldview. And often they grab from religion because it's already built, it's already there, right? And religion has thought stopping processes built into it because there's some things that it can't explain and you must therefore literally shut down your logic and trust. So religion is a convenient tool for them, but like now, I think, with the internet, it has given, like any niche ideology or worldview, the opportunity to find people that they can bring under it, but like also, religion is still hugely, hugely, hugely being used. So I don't, I don't want people to think like we're away from that, or we're over like the religious cults.
Nick VinZant 19:58
So like. Growing up in one I know you write about this a lot in your book, uncultured. How do you get out of that as a kid? Because I would just think, like, Oh, this is just what life is like, like. I would have no perspective to know that maybe this wasn't the way things should be.
Daniella Mestyanek Young 20:18
Yeah, I mean, that's where I think, sorry, this is where I think that for me, part of it was just being neuro diverse, or being the different kid, the way I always saw it, as just I was, I was the one always asking, why? Like, I don't know if I was ever religious ever. I kind of think I just don't have a religious bone on my body. I'm just a very logical neurodivergent. Likes to know why, loves to know processes, loves to ask questions. And that's not allowed. That was the wrong thing to be in the cult. And so from a very young age, I remember being six years old and being like, Oh, I'm not doing this, you know, I'm gonna grow up and be something else. So that was part of it for me. Part of it was that my mother was also born and raised in the cult, so I had a bit of a different experience than others, like I had less connection to the outside world, but also she kind of radicalized me a little bit without realizing it. You know, we're 15 years apart in age, and there was one point when I was 11, and I was probably her biggest confidant, as she was having doubts, and she couldn't speak them to anyone else, but she could speak them to me. And then finally, part of it was just, I just think really, really bad treatment. And for teenagers like at some point, because it's not like we never had interaction with the world, especially because, like the children of God was the performance cult, like we every every cult has a thing that they use to make money. And we performed, and we produced River and Joaquin Phoenix and Rose McGowan, and we flamed Jeremy Spencer of Fleetwood Mac, who's a horrible, abusive person, and we produced all this stuff. And so we were out in the world, performing and interacting with a world that we were told was evil, but that I experienced as the people outside seemed nicer. And that's just, I guess for me, it was just the process of like it was just so miserable that by the time I was 15 years old, I was like, No, I need to get them to kick me out or throw me out, or figure my way out of here. Otherwise, I'm just not gonna survive.
Nick VinZant 23:01
How hard is it to get out?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 23:05
Easier than leaving the military? Um, so, so, like, in my case, like I was like, Look, if they, especially when you're young, you know, if they're they think there's a chance they can save you, they're gonna try. And exorcisms are not fun, so I'm going to do the worst thing, which, at the time, there was no contact with outsiders. So I literally climbed over the commune wall and snuck away to go meet my boyfriend, and then I got caught. So then that was like, like, you will now be thrown out. That was the big sin they sort of realized. They then maybe didn't want to throw out a high profile third generation child whose parents and grandparents were all like, intricately tied into the leadership. So then they tried to, like, bring in the cool young aunties my mom's age, who'd grown up in the cult and stayed and tried to convince me that it was still great. And I think at one point, my mom thought that maybe I was falling for it, and so she took me on a walk outside the commune, and she was like, You need to go. You need to go. We have a one of My stepsisters because my mom, at the age of 20, was partnered with a 40 year old guy who had seven children already. And so one of my stepsisters, who I did not know at all, had agreed to, you know, take the 15 year old, and she was my mom was sort of like, Look, I know it's scary, but like, go. And I asked her, years later why she did that. She just said, like, she could tell that I was not happy and hadn't been happy for a very long time. And so I sort of had this push the logistics after that was just we bought three bus tickets from Guadalajara, Mexico to Houston, Texas, and my parents brought me and dropped me off at $0 with a woman I didn't know very well, and went back to their commune. And then I put myself through high school and college,
Nick VinZant 25:22
that's incredible. Like, it's so hard to change who you are and where you grow up.
Daniella Mestyanek Young 25:29
Yeah, it's almost, I almost think it's easier the way that I did it just being dropped off in a completely different place with nothing and, like, having to survive than it is for like Mormons who leave the church and are still in Utah, surrounded by everyone being shunned. You know, like, in some ways it was just like, Okay, now I just gotta figure out life all on my own. And in
Nick VinZant 25:57
some ways, I guess being younger, you kind of adapt to the circumstance a little bit easier. You don't know what you're missing as much or what you're risking,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 26:07
yeah, and that's really what it was, right? I was just like, Okay, this is my chance to go to school. This is what I've wanted. I'm I'm free from those people. It's not even till two years later, when our cult has this famous murder suicide that's on the news that I realize, like, oh, I grew up in our cult. Like that is what's wrong with me, right? Like that is what happened. So that's even like another thing that's just like a weird thing for people to understand. It's like, you don't know you were in a cult, usually, until after you're out, and then you have to, like, reprocess the whole situation.
Nick VinZant 26:53
Yeah, can people when they leave, can they kind of live a normal life, or is it kind of the idea of somebody maybe beats an addiction, but then they beat alcohol addiction, but then they become addicted to exercise. Like, do they Yeah, do they get out? Or do they just trade this for something else,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 27:13
right? So you can't get out of a call and just lead a normal life without dealing with your trauma? I firmly believe that, and there are quite a few psychologists and sociologists that say like they don't think it's possible to heal from cult trauma without understanding what happened to you. Now, most of us don't want to hear that, and I've identified these like three phases of leaving a cult, right? So the first is the crack in the brainwashing and the physically and mentally leaving. And then there's this. The next phase is a decade of deconstruction, where you're understanding why you were in a cult, even if you were born in one, and what impacts it had on your personality and identity. But that decade doesn't start till you start it. So for many of us, especially those of us that have to go straight into survival mode as soon as we leave a cult like we just don't deal with it. So I just from the age of 15 to 25 was like, nope, not going to deal with it. Sometimes people do that hard until they're about 40s or 50s, like from my background, and then they break. I went into the military and just exactly paralleled and doubled down on all the trauma. So I was breaking by about 25 and that was the point that I really had to start kind of deconstructing and doing the work to understand my experience. And one of the big things for me was kind of answering that question, of realizing that, like I had subconsciously believed that I could outrun it, right, that I could out perfection. It perfectionism was absolutely my post. Call it my post cult heroin addiction, right? Like college, valedictorian, military, I can run five minute miles, and I will do it, even if my body is not prepared and I'm going to be broken because, like, I will be the best, because that was what I was trained in a cult. So I think at some point, like, and for me, it was when I was an army captain, like, I did it. I beat the odds. I am the hero story, and like, I'm completely broken. You know, I was so suicidal for a decade, and I always used to think, like, everyone's gonna say, where did that come from? Right? Came out of nowhere, like, she's bubbly, she's perfect, she's all the things. And when I was a captain in the Army, and I was like, Oh, I'm not magically healed, okay, like, now I'm gonna have to deal. And so I do think that, like there's no you know, you have to spend a decade understanding what impacts it had on your personality and identity, because it had that many impacts. There's no
Nick VinZant 30:13
easy segue out of this. But are you? Are you ready for some hard listener submitted question?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 30:19
Let me, let me give you the segue out of it, though, is that there's this beautiful quote that I heard that says, We know we're healing when we stop wishing for a do over. And that has so much meaning to me now, because for my decade of deconstruction, I truly felt like I would give anything to just get to have a childhood, right? Like I would give anything to just get to have had normal development. It still blows my mind that some people just have normal lives with parents that just love them and want to develop them like it blows my mind that my own kid has that. But now I'm at this place in my life where I think, because I'm so healed and because I'm so integrated, I realized, if I went back and changed anything, you know, all of this would go away. So that's the thing I offer to listeners who are like struggling through the deconstruction phase, which is usually very both mentally and physically painful, but like, once you figure out why you have all these impacts on your personality and identity, then it's all your story and It's all your identity, and it's all stuff. Yeah, use, you know, like, I made balloon animals at my daughter's kindergarten graduation because I was trafficked as a carnival clown in Mexico as a teenager, you know. So it didn't come from a good place. But like, now that I've sewn it all together in an awesome way, like, I don't want to change any of it. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 32:03
it's still shaped who you are today. You wouldn't be that person without that. That makes sense. Um, are you ready for some listener submitted questions?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 32:12
I'm ready.
Nick VinZant 32:15
Do you think cults are becoming more popular now, or have they always kind of been popular? We're just hearing about
Daniella Mestyanek Young 32:22
them. Yes and no, cults are cults pop up in times of social turmoil. So if we just look at the world since the 1960s we saw cults all over America and Canada in the 60s and 70s, exactly corresponding with our sort of civil rights movement. And then we saw it move over to Asia in the 80s, Asia parts of Europe, Japan, Korea. And then we saw it move to Latin America in the 90s. And my family, personally, just followed that route. So yes, right now, cults are very, very, very, very popular, as we just know, if we turn on Netflix, but it's because we are living through times of intense social turmoil, like it is because our systems are breaking. Our country might be breaking, and like when times are confusing and noisy and loud and scary. People are looking for clarity, and the promise that every single cult leader offers is, come follow me, right, leave your crazy, scary world. Come follow me and be perfect, and I'll, I'll solve these problems for you,
Nick VinZant 33:39
talking about being perfect. Like, why is there such a focus on how terrible people are and the senses? Like, Why is there always, you know, Scientology, I think they have, I can't think of the name of it right now, but Right, like, audits, or there always seems to be this, tell me everything bad about yourself, ritual that cults seem to have,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 34:03
yes? So the way that cults break you down is through self sacrifice, right? It's through getting yourself to just constantly sacrifice for the group until you no longer think of yourself as an individual and one of the things that cults use what you're talking about is called purity requirements. You as the cult member, are trying to live some ultimate version of purity that can be definitely not just sexual purity, like I don't put X, Y, Z in my body, in my mind, on my hair, in my kids. A lot of what you mentioned, where cult survivors will come out of a cult, but then they'll go into like, this thing, or this thing, or CrossFit, or it's still chasing this purity and this I need. To transform myself. And the reason that purity requirements, which I look at, is like any black and white rule of we don't do this, or we do this, and often they're around these things that make us ultimately human, like consuming alcohol or drugs in order to change our state, like our sexual interactions, like how we eat, how we bury people, how we pray, all of these things that, like cultures have decided are important to the human experience. And cult leaders use that as the purity requirements, because human beings are really bad at being pure and perfect, and so you're constantly striving, you're constantly putting yourself under surveillance, and you're constantly then putting each other under surveillance. And this is the best name termed I've ever heard. It's called performative regulation, when group members all start policing each other. And very, very important note, the cult leader never has to follow their purity requirements.
Nick VinZant 36:12
Yeah? And every time I watch, like a Netflix documentary, I'm like, but they're not doing any of that,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 36:17
yeah? And then there's this other, like, little part of it that goes in hand with that, which is the cult always blames the individual for systemic problems. So if you have wins, it's because of the cult or the cult leader or the program or whatever. But if you have problems, it's because of you.
Nick VinZant 36:36
Why does so many celebrities seem to be in them. Cults love celebrities.
Daniella Mestyanek Young 36:41
I would say it's because they're recruited extra hard. So there's this thing in cults, because I'm writing a book called The cult wing of America, so I call it the skinny white woman, which is your Allison max your guy Lane Maxwells. And it is because of white supremacist purity of white women culture that like, if you have this white woman next to your crazy cult leader, she's kind of whitewashing the sins of the cult. I call it like a purity mascot or a validity mascot. And I think there's two other tropes that are used, which is military officer, plus, if that's also a skinny white woman like we see in the orgasm cult, and celebrity like your Tom Cruise of Scientology, or your Jeremy Spencer Fleetwood Mac in children of God. And they just kind of function as this, like signal to the outside world that, like, look, we're valid, right? Nicole kidman's here, so, like, celebrities have just as much chance as any normal person to be a seeker, to be depressed, right? To have these things going on. That makes it easy for cults to recruit them. But I think they recruit them extra hard. I think they recruit veterans and specifically officers, extra hard. Would
Nick VinZant 38:05
you say that a cult is kind of different than an extreme group, right? Like, is CHILDREN OF GOD fundamentally different than something? I'm just gonna pick proud boys or things like that. Are they different or like, no, the same thing. Really, not
Daniella Mestyanek Young 38:21
at all. I think it's the same thing. Um, what so? So one of the things I think, which I've brought up before, is the labor, right? And that, like, it wasn't until I heard a cult scholar say cults are all about labor that I, like understood my life and understood, like the why of it all. And I actually think what everybody misses in calling like this a call this an extreme group, this A it's organized crime. It's organized crime. The children of God was a 50 year long 100,000 person inclusive crime syndicate all around the world to traffic labor, child and adults, to use it to create entertainment products, which they then sold in the millions, and the children of God, after being in the 80s in Time Magazine as a sex cult performed twice at the White House In the 90s. Right like, and everyone misses that story because they're stuck on cult and sex cult. And so to go back to your question, like, no, to me, they're all exactly the same, like you see the exact parallels in a terrorist group that you see in a gang that you see in a cult that you see in a abusive relationship, and it doesn't really matter what name you call it, it is coercing other people to get power. And labor had
Nick VinZant 39:53
some questions about specific cults. Maybe you know these, maybe you don't, the zizians. Hmm? That seems to be the new, big one that I saw in the news. What are the you know, how to pronounce that. Is it zizians?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 40:06
I think it's ZIZ Ian's. And it was just in the news because they shot a border guard in Canada. And I think what's interesting about this is the, I mean, it's, it's a cult. They're trans humanists. Which means, like, they are people that are actively trying to create cyborgs. Like they actively want to become robot people, and, like, use their own bodies. And, you know, there have been plastic surgery cults. Like, it's a cult. What I find to be very interesting is the media coalesced around calling it a trans cult and missing the other part, um, and that language, that trans identity is a cult, is coming straight to us from like the white nationalist folks you know, and got seeded into regular conservative language. But yeah, there's the cult of people that want to be robot.
Nick VinZant 41:08
Would you look at one of them be like, Oh, that's that's the strangest one, or that's the most extreme one? I
Daniella Mestyanek Young 41:18
don't think so. I actually read a billion years by Mike Rinder about Scientology, right? Like hugely awaited says some shocking things, and I was a little disappointed that they were just so like quotidian. I think that every like, I don't think I can be shocked with what length a cult will go to because I just think it's formulaic, and the only difference is time, money and impunity. So like, the Mormons are the Mormons because they've had time, money and impunity. Same for Scientology, same for children of God.
Nick VinZant 41:59
But ultimately, like, they'll all get to that level. If they have those three things, they will
Daniella Mestyanek Young 42:03
all like, whether it is watching about Hugh Hefner, whether it is watching about Adam Newman of WeWork, like Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos, this is, really, is what my next book, The culting of America, is trying to show. It's just like, Look, if you have these elements, you're you're manipulating and coercing people, and the people at the top who have designed that I don't think have any limits.
Nick VinZant 42:32
And this on a lighter note, what's your best knitting tip?
Daniella Mestyanek Young 42:38
Oh, can I tell you my favorite knitting fact first, yes, okay, my favorite knitting fact is that during World War Two, both sides of the war were using knitting spies, because knitting is Morse code. It is binary, in addition to the fact that we're doing it on spears. But my favorite part of this fact is that even though both sides were using knitting spies, the men of both sides army so determinedly underestimated women that they were not regularly catching the knitting spies on either side. And then my favorite knitting tip would be a roll up of like, go find a YouTube channel that teaches children, but understand that like it's just muscle memory, and it seems complicated, but once you learn how to hold your hands, like all I'm doing is clicking these sticks back and forth and wrapping a thing around it, and then you'll never be bored again in Your Life, because you'll always have something to do. And I think surrounding your life in yarn and fiber arts is a great way to, like, get glimmers and make connection with other people. And like, people will just walk up to me in public because I'm knitting and start talking to me. And it's great.
Nick VinZant 43:56
That's pretty much all the questions we have, like, what's kind of coming up next for you? Where can people find the books that kind of stuff? Yeah,
Daniella Mestyanek Young 44:03
so right now, I've sold uncultured out. I've sold Jeff Bezos out of my book. Congratulations, but it is, thank you. They're doing a reprint, but I mean, you can find it where you buy books. It's also on audio. My audio was recommended twice in the New York Times, and it was the hardest thing I've ever done in five days. And if you're a Spotify subscriber, you can listen to it for free, and I still get paid. So check out that audio. And then what's next for me is actually this project I've been doing for two years now, which is writing this book, The culting of America. And I'm like, crowd source writing the book, so I just do it live on my social media all the time. So this book is where I break down the 10 parts that I believe make you a cult, but then I show it to you in real cults, in the US military, and then in groups around you. Yeah. And I am self publishing that book. I'm doing a fundraiser for it, and I would love if we could include that link, but I'm hoping that that book's going to come out at the end of this year. I am furiously in the process of finishing it up. I didn't expect to be publishing it in the second round of our country being our cult. But here we are, and I am on like most of the social media as knitting cult lady, definitely come find me on YouTube and then on Tiktok are the best places to interact with me. I
Nick VinZant 45:35
want to thank Daniela so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her, we have linked to her on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on tick tock, Instagram and YouTube, and we've also included her information in the episode description. And if you want to see more of this episode, the YouTube version will be live on February 27 at 12:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. What part of your body do you wash first? Like you get in the shower. What part of your body are you washing first? Usually
John Shull 46:15
my hair. You go, hair. First. I go, the old top down method. I started my hair and work my way down from there.
Nick VinZant 46:24
Oh, interesting. So I start with my chest to wait, you know, to get a good lather like I start with my chest. I'm not a really hairy guy, but I have some chest hair, yeah. Okay, and I get a good lather going, and then I kind of use that to sort of get the ball rolling, and then I work my way down. The hair is the last thing that I wash.
John Shull 46:46
You obviously spend the longest time on your, you know, private parts, I'm sure, because they're just so massive.
Nick VinZant 46:52
It takes a while when you have cojones that big to fully lather them up. But I'm not going to linger in that area, because if I linger in that area, then, well, I'm already in the shower. Yeah, right, yeah, I can't. You can't linger. You gotta quick wash that and move on. You
John Shull 47:09
do have to, yeah, no, don't stop and think because No, just doesn't turn out. Well, no, you can't.
Nick VinZant 47:15
You can't like, you've gotta go into the shower with a clear mindset, because that's really your only place of solitude once you have children.
John Shull 47:26
That's it. The bathroom is like the only place where Scott may get some time.
Nick VinZant 47:32
It's you got to be efficient. You got to be efficient. Okay, so you do hair, and then you work your way down.
John Shull 47:38
Yeah, I usually do hair, armpits, other areas, and then, and then I'll fill the rest in from there.
Nick VinZant 47:45
Do you wash the bottom of your feet?
John Shull 47:48
No, I've never watched the bottom of my feet. Oh,
Nick VinZant 47:51
you gotta, yeah, you gotta wash those. I'll, I'll even occasionally go between the toes if I'm feeling really Froggy. I do
John Shull 48:00
think one of the most satisfying things in the shower is when you like exfoliate, and you can see the pores literally get unclogged with all the crap that's been in them. That's how I feeling.
Nick VinZant 48:12
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever had that. I guess I don't I shower. I mean, I do a better job than that. I guess,
John Shull 48:20
no, you could jump in there right now and you would have dead skin that you would need to get off yourself. I guess I don't want to.
Nick VinZant 48:26
I don't want to start thinking about it, though. I don't want, like, Anytime somebody's like, you've got small mites living on your body all the time. Like, no, I don't want to think about all that stuff. I pulled the audience. Apparently you are completely wrong in what you suggest, 60% of people said that they do chest slash arms first. 20% said face, neck. 20% said hair. Nobody starts with legs. 0% say legs. I would agree with that. Nobody's doing their legs first.
John Shull 48:59
I'm not even entirely sure. I fully, like, I'm not going below the kneecap.
Nick VinZant 49:05
Oh yeah, I've heard something like some rationale that you don't really need to wash your legs because everything, like, eventually floods down there anyway, that you don't have to do it, but you gotta go down there and wash your legs.
John Shull 49:20
I mean, I don't know I have certain spots that I make sure I hit, and depending amongst the time that I have, then maybe I'll get the extra stuff.
Nick VinZant 49:30
Do you have a part of your body you would say that is always consistently kind of dirty.
John Shull 49:34
Behind my ears. Always seems to be kind of stinky if I let it go a day or two.
Nick VinZant 49:39
How are you smelling behind your ears once again?
John Shull 49:42
If you go, yeah, if you, if you go like that right there, and you smell it, it's probably going to smell a little funky if you haven't showered in a couple
Nick VinZant 49:49
of days. Oh, I didn't know that. I guess I would say the back of my neck I don't have a sense of smell. Oh, that's
John Shull 49:57
like, I'll keep forgetting that. I don't know how I always forget. Get that with you.
Nick VinZant 50:00
Nobody ever remembers my own lovely wife of 10 years and 13 years in a relationship. The other day was like, smell this.
John Shull 50:11
Okay, yeah, your your anniversary, uh, just passed, right?
Nick VinZant 50:14
Yeah, that's all we need to talk about that. Congratulations. No. Need to get into our anniversaries. And it was like in October, but I guess, okay, all right, congratulations. Thank you. I'm glad to see that I'm one amongst the more normal people who start with their chest. It's just right here, you got the soap? Are you a lather guy or a bar guy?
John Shull 50:35
I am a kind of like my candles. I have. I like scented soaps. So I will, I will try many of those.
Nick VinZant 50:44
You really are the biggest pansy. Like, you really are the biggest pansy. Why
John Shull 50:51
I? Why? I mean, I can smell like, yeah, me, or I can smell like, you know, garden roses, you know, like, what would I What would you pick? You
Nick VinZant 51:03
want to be? You want to be like a man that, right? You're hanging out with the guys. There's a dust up that might be potentially happening, and you want to come up there and somebody's like, who smells like lavender roses? I
John Shull 51:16
mean, I have, I have manly scents, I guess you could call them.
Nick VinZant 51:21
Have you ever judged a man by his scent, not stinking, but like, Why is that guy smell so floral?
John Shull 51:28
Yes, I have, actually, I've, you know, there, there's a couple, there's a couple of scents that really strike me. Patchouli is one of them. Um, you know somebody that has a very sweet smell as a man, like a very like, like a rose, almost, kind of smell. I'm like, What? What happened, man, you put on your wife or partner's perfume? I mean, that's, it's a little musky in here today. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 51:56
you gotta smell like a man, a little bit like, but
Unknown Speaker 51:59
what does that smell like
Nick VinZant 52:00
just combination of
John Shull 52:03
butter and jelly sandwiches and cigarettes. I
Nick VinZant 52:07
would say that I'm not not having a sense of smell. I would say that a man should smell like a combination of anger, elbow grease and disappointment. Well, that's what a man should smell like,
John Shull 52:22
our generation, sure, but don't go below us, because, you know, oh,
Nick VinZant 52:27
here we go. Here we go. The kids today. Okay, all right, all
John Shull 52:32
right, let's give some shout outs here. Uh, Anastasia vibes, Hazel Chapman, Lorraine Smith, and I apologize for my raspy voice. I was at a wedding where I sang and danced for five hours, so apologize
Nick VinZant 52:47
just for everyone listening. John is desperate to talk about the wedding. He's desperate to talk about it. He wants to try to get it in there. He's going to try to weasel it in there. I'm going to try my best to keep it out. I'm just
John Shull 52:57
disappointed that I sent Nick a fantastic video, and he couldn't even give me a thumbs up on it. I actually
Nick VinZant 53:03
heard my wife. So I believe my wife recorded me doing teaching my sons how to do the Stone Cold Steve Austin stunner, and she sent it to John because it was an instructional video, and he sent back an emotional message. And to be honest with you, she listened to it and I didn't even listen to it. Well,
John Shull 53:22
that's terrible, and that's why I don't waste my time sending you things, cuz it's too
Nick VinZant 53:27
much for me. I don't like emotions. It's not worth it. I don't like emotions. I don't want to deal with emotions
John Shull 53:34
you should feel. You should feel it. You're probably you probably would have been. I sent it at what, 1230 Eastern so it was 930 west coast. You probably would have got it right in the groove, right when you were kicking on free bird. It would have been just an amazing moment.
Nick VinZant 53:50
I've been watching Free Bird pretty much every time I do drugs,
John Shull 53:56
naughty. I don't know anyways, I don't remember where you were. I don't think I said Frank Gill yet, or Logan Cook, Bob Amidon, Aaron Enon, Aaron akin Brandt, felt like I would just double up there on Aaron's Nicky Graham Smith, and we'll end here with David Franks and frizzaro Patras. Patras, I like for zaro. I don't think that's a real name, but I like for zaro. I like a z in a name. Would you
Nick VinZant 54:33
rather be named Frank or Carl? Because to me, those are two names that people really shouldn't be named like you look at a baby and you're like, Frank,
Unknown Speaker 54:46
Carl.
Nick VinZant 54:48
Would you rather be named Frank or Carl? I
John Shull 54:51
guess if you're, if I had to, if I had to choose, probably a frank. I feel like Franks are more fun than Carl's.
Nick VinZant 54:58
Yeah. I would say I've never known like a salty Frank or a Carl, you kind of got to be a good guy to be named Frank or Carl to do you, you have to be like a certain you got to have a certain number, number of jolliness to
Speaker 1 55:16
you. I mean, I guess I what is
Nick VinZant 55:19
happening over there,
John Shull 55:21
my phone just just clicked on some kind of advertisement. Oh, okay. Out of okay, out of our chat room. Okay,
Nick VinZant 55:29
alright, yeah, shave. Oh, if that's what you're going with, go with that.
John Shull 55:34
What else would it have been you want me to get on my rant about ads? Now, is that what you want?
Nick VinZant 55:38
No, I don't, but I'm getting a lot of ads for, like, medical stuff, and I'm like, I'm not that old. Let's
John Shull 55:47
see what, what's, what's happening in the world this week? What? What was that?
Nick VinZant 55:55
I don't know, op, I don't know something playing on my phone. Yeah, come on.
John Shull 56:01
Um, so I've been wanting to tell this story, maybe not to the world, but forever that you and I once worked for a man, a news director who was once named one of the worst bosses in America by Keith Olbermann. Oh, I
Nick VinZant 56:19
remember that. Yes, so I wouldn't say yeah.
John Shull 56:23
But the reason why I bring it up, it all come full circle. Reason why our former news director kind of was in hot water got national attention was he asked everybody in a newsroom to write down people around them that they thought weren't pulling their weight, you know, put your name on it that you signed it and it handed to him right like that's, I mean, that's just unheard of. Well now apparently Elon Musk's folks have sent out email emails to every federal agency as of this recording saying asking every employee to to put down five things that they did last week that were successful and send it back to them. It's like, what? What are we doing here? Man, that's
Nick VinZant 57:09
the kind of thing right to keep it out of the political aspect is that it's not your job to justify your job. It's your boss's job to justify your job. Like, it's not like you created the position and decided that you were the one who needed to do this work, someone else created the position, and someone else should be deciding what you should be doing. It's not your job to justify your job and all that stuff. Like, one of the things that I feel like I had to learn in the corporate world, as I went out into real working was the ability to bullshit, to take minor, minor accomplishments and make them seem like it was a big deal. I feel like learning, learning to manage up, is the most important thing you can do in any job manage expectations for the people who are above you.
John Shull 58:07
I mean, do you have any more pieces of wisdom that you want to share
Nick VinZant 58:11
whenever you're doing a job? You need to find out what metric, whatever metric that is, that is most important to the people above you, and then find a way to basically fulfill that metric, because you may have like, 10 things that you're responsible for, but there's only one of those that they really count, care about. And if you just do that one thing, you can do whatever anything else. Like, I've been a terrible employee at some jobs, but I did that one thing and was promoted even though I was terrible and even didn't outright do other aspects of the job.
John Shull 58:45
Well, now look at you running a fortune 500 company. Let's see George Clooney, of all people, apparently says that he wants to go off the grid and has bought a farm and is apparently going to live on the farm, and that's how he's going to live now. Good
Nick VinZant 59:01
for him. I don't I don't understand if I ever got into a position where I made ten million nobody would ever hear from me again.
John Shull 59:09
I honestly believe that. I don't think you would even talk to me if you made
Nick VinZant 59:13
no. I mean, I would keep friends and family and stuff like that. But like, I don't understand people you just made all this money. Like you coming back, like, if I made an I mean, sports is a little bit different, but if I was doing something like you just made all this if I was a CEO and you got paid a $50 million bonus, I'd be, like, never working again. Here's
John Shull 59:39
a random thought I had, when you go into a bank like, say, your bank, do you have a turnover every time you go in there? I feel like every time I go into the bank, it's never the same manager twice that I deal with ever I
Nick VinZant 59:55
have an online bank, I've actually haven't gone into a bank in probably 15 years. Shout. I
John Shull 1:00:00
mean, not a baby. I mean not to even have to sign paperwork or get anything notarized, nothing, nothing.
Nick VinZant 1:00:06
I literally have not stepped foot in a bank in probably, yeah, 15 years. I mean, I use USAA. It's a great banking service, and I'm very happy for it. And I like, they just mail it to you, or you use this thing, I don't know if you've heard of it, the internet, they can, like, if you have to sign a document, they can just email it to you. You can click it
John Shull 1:00:25
to have something notarized. You have to be in front of a notary. Oh, I don't know
Nick VinZant 1:00:31
what. I've never had something notarized. Like, what are you doing? Well, just taking out loans to you. Take it on loans to buy Pokemon cards. It
John Shull 1:00:37
just doesn't matter. It. It doesn't, you know, there's probably a good base of this audience. I love Pokemon and You're shitting on them.
Nick VinZant 1:00:44
Oh, I'm just like, it's not about them, it's about you. I'm perfectly okay with people doing whatever they want and had I haven't, however they want. It's just you that I like to give a hard time to. I
John Shull 1:00:54
am an olive branch of our community of listeners, and you are shitting on them. Me shitting on them. So
Nick VinZant 1:01:00
do you want to do top five Pokemon next, next episode? No,
John Shull 1:01:04
because I don't. I couldn't even tell you the new generation. Oh yeah, I'm not. I'm not, like an exact huge Pokemon fan, okay, like you claim I am. No, it's
Nick VinZant 1:01:17
fine. Be a big Pokemon fan, dude. Love what you love.
John Shull 1:01:22
I hate. You, uh, wet socks or wet underwear. What's more infuriating? Oh, wet
Nick VinZant 1:01:27
socks. I can't stand wet socks that can ruin a day, sure, time purposely, like, if I'm going somewhere. I live in Seattle, I carry or not, I pack extra socks for like, my boys, like, you gotta have feet. Man, no, because I'm not gonna get my feet wet. I'm gonna grow an adult. Like, I'm like, Hey, there's a puddle there. I should walk around it.
John Shull 1:01:52
Well, you never know what kids are gonna do. You tell them there's ice to not step on the ice and then step on the ice. Hey,
Nick VinZant 1:01:59
why is your why is your underwear wet? Though, like, you shouldn't just be getting hit with wet underwear in the middle of a day.
John Shull 1:02:07
I mean, hey, you never know. Maybe it's a problem. Maybe, yeah, you're not supposed to, you know, I don't know. Do
Nick VinZant 1:02:14
you run into wet underwear frequently? Oh, god dang him. Underwear is wet again?
John Shull 1:02:19
Have I? Know No, not, not unless I'm having a hemorrhoid or something. Okay,
Nick VinZant 1:02:24
how much everybody knows? Every man understands that, no matter how much you shake and dance, the last two drops go in your pants. But how often, oh, my God, will you get like, Oh man, that's too much like, I didn't quite finish Good question. Got a decent amount of in my underwear. Like, how often would you say that happens to you?
John Shull 1:02:49
I mean, I'm gonna say probably every fourth or fifth time.
Nick VinZant 1:02:55
That's way too much. I was gonna say, like, once a month for me, that's going to happen.
John Shull 1:03:02
No. I mean, there's a lot of contributing factors, like, you're just not doing it right. Maybe it's a small bathroom. Maybe somebody comes in a startles you, you know, maybe something happens. Maybe you think you're done, but you didn't shake it, although, you know, like there's all kinds of determining factors. So I
Nick VinZant 1:03:19
do. I like how these two things have now come together to paint us a picture of what's going on, right? Like the wet socks versus wet underwear question, which I thought was an odd question. I thought that maybe you were putting on wet underwear like it didn't quite dry and you needed underwear. Now I see that there's a recurring pattern that your underwear is getting wet because you're not finishing the job, like you just gotta pause for a minute get it all out. I
John Shull 1:03:45
mean, I didn't say that. It was like affecting me. You asked me a question. I answered the question.
Nick VinZant 1:03:51
I know. I just didn't expect it to be bad. Often,
John Shull 1:03:55
I still feel like you need to really spend the next week and look every time you pee, and I bet you it's a lot more than you think. Oh
Nick VinZant 1:04:04
no. I mean, I'm gonna get some in there, like the last two drops. You're always gonna have the last two drops if you're going to a public restroom that's going to get in there, because you can't just be there all day. But I'm not like no one else, if they happen to touch that area would be feeling a wet spot. Like, are you saying that every fourth or fifth time that you go, if the wife walks up and like, Hey, John, let's go and grabs it, she's going to walk away with her hand noticing it's a little wet.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:35
I mean, maybe
Nick VinZant 1:04:37
never. I think, I think you gotta just, you gotta, you gotta refocus.
John Shull 1:04:41
I mean, plus, you know, one of, one of the issues that I had for a long time was standing too, too close to the urinal and the splash itself would get my wet.
Nick VinZant 1:04:55
I've never, I can't say that. I. Or think to, like, Wait, if you walk up to a urine urinal, are you like, you don't just naturally walk right up and think that's the right space. Like, muscle memory doesn't come in. Do you have to, like, actively think of where you need to be in relation to the urinal. You're like, oh, too close. Back up.
John Shull 1:05:19
I mean, there's a little bit of natural, you know, inclination. But if I really have to go, and I know it's going to fire out of there, maybe I stand a little further back. But then if there's somebody in the in the urinal next to me, then I don't, I can't stand all the way back, because you're not my shits exposed, you know, like, there's a lot of thought that goes into it. I guess
Nick VinZant 1:05:39
I never think about my distance to the urinal. Like, that's just kind of muscle memory. Like that's about right where you stand. Oh, act
John Shull 1:05:48
like you haven't backpedaled to see if you can, you know, piss from the opposite wall into the urinal.
Nick VinZant 1:05:53
Yeah, I remember a kid Francis Noonan peed like, across the room. Shout out to Francis Noonan, yeah, Frankie went like, all the way across. We had was, like a trough urinal. He went like, all the way across. It's impressive.
John Shull 1:06:08
Man. There was an old sports arena here, and the Red Wings played out of it, and it had a trough bathrooms. And you want to see some shit. You see men fighting for that thing, I like the second intermission. Man sitting around with their dings, hanging out, just trying to piss into a trough. Man,
Nick VinZant 1:06:27
that's such a weird thing like this, like 400 people in a room taking a like, all everybody's, yeah, just walking in there, thinking out, just hanging out. Okay,
John Shull 1:06:40
well, that really, that took a lot of life of its own. That was fun. I don't really have much more, to be honest, nothing that that's really, you know, I was going to ask you what, what your anxiety level is to fly right now. Oh, with everything that's happening.
Nick VinZant 1:06:56
Oh, I don't know what's going on, but my tolerance of flying has dropped off the face of the earth. I do not want to fly at all anymore. Yeah, I mean, to the point where I'm not going places because I don't want to fly. And I've never been like that before.
John Shull 1:07:20
I think there's, right? I don't know if I agree with you wholeheartedly. There's a lot of noise right now. I don't think there's as much you know, because obviously, what's happened with the plane crashes, when you have the Trump administration saying they're going to cut, like, all the probationary employees and all that stuff, but they still have to run at standards, right? Like they still have to, you know, right?
Nick VinZant 1:07:40
It's, it's, you're, I think that you're still fine, right? Like, statistically, air travel is still safer, but I just think that what's happened in the news, and then the gradual way that flying has gone where, like, every part of the experience has become the worst possible experience. Like, how can we make this really difficult for everyone and try to get as much money out of you as possible? Like, just every part of the flying experience is awful. It's awful.
John Shull 1:08:13
Like, I mean that that is the thing any airline now. Like, there is no airline that is above the rest unless you're fine flying first class, which none of us are.
Nick VinZant 1:08:23
I flew frontier on for the first time ever, and I feel like the slogan of Frontier should be, you'll only fly once, like you wouldn't. Never again. Never again. Would I ever have like there was a huge line. Because whatever the thing is, is that whenever you try to nickel and dime somebody, people will figure out a way around that and make that whole experience terrible, like if you try to charge people for checking the bags, they'll try to pack as much stuff into the smallest bag that they can. So that now this entire thing takes way too long to get on the plane. If you tell people you're going to charge them for checking a bag, then everybody's going to do something in advance and make it impossible to get to the gate. Like we're always going to find the shortcut. And whatever you try to do, we're going to find a way to ruin that experience. Like it's awful.
John Shull 1:09:17
I don't even, I mean, I haven't flown in seven or eight years, no six or seven years. But I was definitely one of those guys, one of those people that pack everything you can and do a carry on, because I don't want to check it. I don't want to pay the 60 extra dollars to check a bag like that's absurd to me. Flying
Nick VinZant 1:09:35
is terrible, man, I I'm actively avoiding it. Actively hate the experience. Okay,
John Shull 1:09:42
add me to the list. All right. Well, oh,
Nick VinZant 1:09:45
is that it? You got it, you got it all that's it.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:47
Let's be big. This is gonna be big.
Nick VinZant 1:09:52
All right, so our top five is top five sandwiches, or, as John likes to say, sand wedges. I. Hit him with it, a sand wedge sandwich. Okay, what's your number five? I'm curious.
John Shull 1:10:07
What kind did you? Did you pick? Like, like, fast food sandwiches, or actual sandwiches? No,
Nick VinZant 1:10:15
like, types of sandwiches? Like, just type like, I'm not giving away my stuff, but, like, it's not on my list. But I would say, like, turkey breast. Okay,
John Shull 1:10:24
alright, good, good. I wasn't sure how we were going to do this here, but my number five is a it's a roast beef sandwich. Oh,
Nick VinZant 1:10:33
I like a roast beef sandwich. And I would say that, still to this day, the greatest deal that I have ever experienced in my life was Arby's five for 555,
John Shull 1:10:44
man, God, that was that didn't last too long, did it? They didn't keep that around, but
Nick VinZant 1:10:49
I would still say that was the best value deal of all time. It's five for 555,
Unknown Speaker 1:10:54
yeah, it's definitely up there.
Nick VinZant 1:10:58
My number five is grilled cheese.
John Shull 1:11:02
Okay? All right, I don't okay. It's just okay to me. Wow,
Nick VinZant 1:11:07
I bet you make it with snob cheese, too. If you make a grilled cheese, what are you making with? Probably not cheddar, but like, I make it with ancient Provolone and Rasputin. I don't even know I make it with Haverty.
John Shull 1:11:23
You're the party close and have already it's considered the stinky cheese, so I'm surprised that don't eat more of it. It's the only for a grilled cheese. I, yes, I use multiple kinds of cheeses, and I also, I also fry it in a frying pan, so it's delicious. Oh,
Nick VinZant 1:11:43
yeah, that's, that's the same thing, though. I mean, I make mine on a griddle, but I would consider that the same, okay, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:11:49
same thing. Okay, it's
Nick VinZant 1:11:51
number four. Uh,
John Shull 1:11:52
let's see here, man, the list is, I'm gonna put chicken sandwich as my number four, like a chicken breast, you know, like a just a good chicken sandwich, like, think Chick fil A, like, that's what I'm going with. Okay,
Nick VinZant 1:12:07
I agree. How do you feel about buffalo chicken?
John Shull 1:12:13
Ate it a lot when I was younger. Now I'm kind of out of it. Like, I'd rather have like, a good, like, dry, seasoned chicken breast if I'm gonna eat you know, like, I like that better.
Nick VinZant 1:12:23
Such a snob. You're such a snob. I'm not tired of this buffalo chicken. I'd rather have a dry season. Papush, is that even a word from now? I don't know. I'm trying to make funny dude, and I don't even know that enough words to make fun of you about, my number four is Thanksgiving leftover sandwich. I would have put it a lot. I would have put it a lot higher, but you can't really get it. Obviously, very much.
John Shull 1:12:50
Shout out to a former city that we used to both live. In Orlando. There is a sandwich shop there called pom poms. I guess some free advertising for them.
Nick VinZant 1:13:03
They closed. They're closed. They closed. Oh, I know, disappointing. That's one of the only times I've ever seen a restaurant that closed. Am I like? I was actually upset about it. My God, dang it. I don't even live there, 2000 miles away. I was upset. The
John Shull 1:13:19
reason why I was bringing them up, which is kind of asinine now, but they had the best, like Thanksgiving Day sandwich that I've ever that I've ever had. It was amazing. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 1:13:31
they made really good sandwiches.
John Shull 1:13:35
Alright? My number three is the old classic peanut butter and jelly.
Nick VinZant 1:13:42
Okay? I'm gonna really need to, really need to scrutinize your list to see what you're gonna have. Higher than peanut butter and jelly.
John Shull 1:13:51
That's fair. I mean, I like the sandwich. I like it modified naturally, with maybe some banana in there and other things. But on the surface, I don't really like peanut butter and jelly, but you know, you get crunchy peanut butter. Blah, blah, blah, it's delicious. Have you
Nick VinZant 1:14:11
ever tried mixing? What you really got to do to make a really good peanut butter and jelly sandwich is you put the peanut butter and the jelly in a bowl, and then you mix them together. It will completely change how you feel about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
Speaker 1 1:14:24
I've never done that, but I'll try. You have to it'll, it'll really change
Nick VinZant 1:14:29
it. It'll completely change how you feel about it. It's so much better mix it together. Okay, all right. What are you doing right now? What am I doing right now? Like, go do it right now. I already
Unknown Speaker 1:14:42
had dinner. Sorry.
Nick VinZant 1:14:43
Oh, that's early dinner. Uh, three is the club sandwich. I love a good club sandwich, any kind of bun, really, any kind of bun. It's the fanciest sandwich.
John Shull 1:14:55
No, it's not. It's not by any means, but it's good. It's, uh, I mean. How are you going? You going double decker. You going TRIPLE DECKER? You going four stories? No, I'm
Nick VinZant 1:15:04
gonna go triple decker. I want the bread, the stuff the bread, the stuff the bread. And I want it to be cut in the kind of like triangles that they do, okay? I want to cut like this, like an X,
John Shull 1:15:19
uh, so my number two, and I think you're gonna have an issue with this, but it's considered a sandwich, and that is a smore.
Nick VinZant 1:15:29
Oh, i Okay. I would i Yeah. I mean, I don't know how you kind of if you're gonna go that route. I don't know exactly how you don't put it. It is number one would be the big question that I have about that, because,
John Shull 1:15:44
no, because, once again, I like sweets, but my personal list, it's my number one's dead set. My number one's easy to me, like, okay, which I think you're also going to hate on, but it is what it is. But, yeah, my number two would be a smore, because it's chocolate, it's gram you're out by a fire, most, right? You're outside. Like, it's just, it's just, it has everything going for it. I
Nick VinZant 1:16:06
understand that. I would agree with it. The problem is that, to me, a smore always ends up a schmore. That's a hard word to say. It always ends up being more of a Hass. It's one of those things that, oh, that sounds good, and it always disappoints me. It's like, hot chocolate, like, oh, that's going to be and it's never really, isn't really that good. Like, I'd rather just, like, if I had a choice between a smore and just eating the chocolate, I'd probably just eat the chocolate.
John Shull 1:16:28
I get what you're saying. I do, um, but I also don't, because it's delicious.
Nick VinZant 1:16:35
My number two is a Cuban.
John Shull 1:16:38
I love Cuban sandwiches. Cubans are good. I mean, I gotta be in the mood, though, for a Cuban, like, I could have a club sandwich and just be like, Okay, I'm having a club sandwich for the Cuban. I have to be in the mood for a Cuban.
Nick VinZant 1:16:53
I can respect that a little bit. I can respect that. I guess I like sandwiches with the right amount of mustard.
Unknown Speaker 1:17:02
You're a mustard guy. I'm a mustard
Nick VinZant 1:17:03
guy, but it has to be the right amount. I need to know that the mustard is there. I have to enjoy the mustard, but it can't be too much mustard, and I can't have it too much. Okay,
John Shull 1:17:13
all right, my number one, and I'm gonna stick my my nose up and my pinky, but it's like Italian cured meats, you know, like salami, prosciutto, you know, different kinds of salami. Like, that's my number one by far. How about, how
Nick VinZant 1:17:32
do you feel about GABA ghoul?
Speaker 1 1:17:37
I maybe I should know what that is, but I don't know what it is. I have no
Nick VinZant 1:17:40
idea what it is. I just know that it was on The Sopranos, and they were always going for GABA ghoul. Is it even a meat? Yeah, I think so. I think it's a meat in the way that bacon is like a meat where it's not, it's not like something you should be eating a lot. What the Give me? All right,
John Shull 1:18:03
sorry, one of the the headline I read here is, so you're right, it's an Italian cured meat that's a cross between sausage and prosciutto.
Nick VinZant 1:18:11
Oh, I don't know what prosciutto is. That's too fancy for me. Michael went at it, but
John Shull 1:18:15
not spelled as GABA ghoul, so
Nick VinZant 1:18:17
that's just what they call it, the locals, alright, okay, down with space. I
Unknown Speaker 1:18:24
know you're looking good there.
Nick VinZant 1:18:25
Uh, my number one is peanut butter and jelly. I think that peanut butter and jelly is the ultimate sandwich. I don't know if there is a flavor combination in this world that rivals peanut butter and jelly. Salt and pepper, you could put up there, ketchup and mustard. How did you pull that up so fast?
John Shull 1:18:53
I have something as as you always ridicule me. I have something called the Internet Nick,
Nick VinZant 1:18:59
but you did that really fast. I was surprised that you were able to play that that quickly, like you didn't have to go through any ads or anything. Nope.
John Shull 1:19:14
Probably one of the more before all of you young people out there, that was like a viral song before viral songs were viral songs, oh,
Nick VinZant 1:19:23
we could do that. Viral songs, peanut butter jelly, time like, what does the I hate some viral What
John Shull 1:19:30
does the fox say? Anyways, alright, uh oh, boy, um. But I do want to say this, that if the if the hot dog is considered a sandwich. That's my number one, but I didn't want to get into that. I did not want to get into that.
Nick VinZant 1:19:47
Yeah, I mean, I would consider the hot dog to be a sandwich. I mean, it fits all the technical rules, but I still wouldn't put it as number one. I mean, by far, what. I don't understand why a hamburger isn't a sandwich.
Unknown Speaker 1:20:05
Yeah, yeah, that means
Nick VinZant 1:20:06
cheeseburger is a sandwich. I
Speaker 1 1:20:10
don't know. I I stay out of that whole debate because I just too
Nick VinZant 1:20:14
controversial. We can't even go there in this day and age. But
John Shull 1:20:19
I feel like if you were going to do that, you have to do, like, overall, of it all, because you could have put a submarine sandwich on there.
Nick VinZant 1:20:26
Well, yeah, I would put a submarine sandwich on there. Same thing. Do you have anything else in your honorable mention? Now I'm getting
John Shull 1:20:32
hungry. I mean, I did grilled cheese, but only because you had to. I did an egg sandwich. I don't know if you ever had an egg sandwich. Those are delicious. And just two pieces of bread and an egg. Yeah, but the way, in some mayo you scramble, maybe some dill with it. Oof, wait, do you scramble it? No, you make it hard and then you fry it up. You can fry it up, or you can do it hard faced, and then, yeah, put some mayo on the on the on the bread, and chow down in that.
Nick VinZant 1:21:06
Fancy salts. Do you put paprika on it? To me, Paprika is the fanciest salt spice,
John Shull 1:21:12
ooh, paprika? No, I mean, I don't use a lot of paprika,
Nick VinZant 1:21:16
yeah, fake snob. Oh, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it. Really helps out the show and let us know what you think is the best sandwich i i can really, I think that's really, can be heavily up to your personal opinion. But what I don't think is up for opinion is you need to mix the peanut butter and the jelly together before you put it on the sandwich. If you haven't done that yet, it'll change your life. Change your life.