For hundreds of years stories about Vampires have scared and captivated us. But where did they come from and why are some people convinced they are real. Vampire Scholar Theadora Jean joins us to talk Vampire Mythology, the original Count Dracula and how Vampires went from scary to sexy. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Vampires.

Theadora Jean: 01:53ish

Pointless: 50:22ish

Top 5 Vampires: 01:17:35ish

nickvinzant@gmail.com (Show Email)

316-530-7719 (Show voicemail)

https://tsjharling.squarespace.com (Theadora’s Website and Author Page)

https://twitter.com/theadorajean (Theadora Jean Twitter)

Interview with Vampire Scholar Theadora Jean

Nick VinZant 0:12

Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, vampires,

Theadora Jean 0:19

that just starts to be kind of rumors and folktales that emerge about people that are coming back from the dead and preying on the living in some way. And the other aspect of the vampire that I think will always hone our imaginations is its relationship to capitalism. It's kind of weird. It's kind of weird that this horrible 19th century story about a weird vampire that comes from far away to prey on people in London, then ends up as a kids car team,

Nick VinZant 1:00

I want to thank you so much for joining us, if you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or a review, we really appreciate it, it really helps us out if you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for all of your support. So our first guest is a vampire researcher, who has studied where the mythology surrounding vampires started, and how it has changed and affected society. As vampires have gone from scary, to sexy, back to scary and just about everything in between. And it turns out that the changes that vampires have gone through, also say a lot about the changes society has gone through. This is vampire scholar, Theodora gene, when we're talking about vampires, like where does the mythology around them start,

Theadora Jean 1:58

it rarely happens kind of 1600s, maybe 1700s. In Eastern Europe, there just starts to be kind of rumors and folktales that emerge about people that are coming back from the dead and preying on the living in some way. And the stories kind of vary. But then what happens is the kind of powers that be start investigating the stories, and take it very seriously, and start writing things down just on a kind of scientific basis looking into it, because they they genuinely don't know what is just fairy tale and rumor and what might actually be a dangerous thing that is happening. In essence, it gets investigated by the church and by scientists. But then right at that time, you know, printing press, text writing all starts to kind of become a bit more popular. And then it kind of leaps from a kind of almost like a tabloid story that's been investigated to something that becomes part of the literary imagination, certainly, in kind of Western Europe,

Nick VinZant 3:14

people thought that this was a real thing that was happening, and then it kind of just evolved into fictional stories.

Theadora Jean 3:20

Yeah, yeah. That's what I would say, oh, people certainly weren't sure. Because, obviously, when we go back that far, whenever something strange happens, people kind of put a story behind it to try and make sense of it. Yeah. But what would have happened is if you have somebody you hear these stories, even now about somebody who certainly appears to be dead, but then kind of has a bit of time and then comes back, or, or you might have somebody who genuinely is dead, but something makes their body move or something. And so they can have the appearance of life, a dead body can have the appearance of life, even if the body is definitely still dead. So it's just these kind of little little things that have kind of, but people weren't sure about at the time and didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain.

Nick VinZant 4:10

When we think about like other monster creatures, right like Frankenstein, the Wolfman, the mummy. Yeah, they have that kind of similar origin. Were like, oh, is this real? Or were they always fictional characters, and the vampire is different?

Theadora Jean 4:28

Well, I would say the werewolf is very similar. So the werewolves and vampires actually are almost almost the same figure. The Vampire is also associated with the mean. So you think of the werewolf comes to life at the forming the where the vampire also kind of historically comes to life in kind of like the moonlight and also, vampires, often very associated with violence, but also with the animals. So Dracula is, you know, it's the Dracula Dracula is was associated with a bat. But he's also like the wolf and the dog and all those different things. So they definitely have a kinship. In terms of the other ones you mentioned, Frankenstein, I would say is definitely comes from Mary Shelley's novel. And the mummy. I don't know so much about I think you'd need somebody who knows about Egypt, Romania and things like that to come on your show to talk about, but I think the mummy is. It is a kind of a different category or by itself, I think, yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:34

When does the vampire become really popular? 19th century

Theadora Jean 5:38

is when it all kicks off. In a way it all really happens with Byron. We're familiar with Lord Byron. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 5:46

He's no longer with us, I believe.

Theadora Jean 5:50

Okay, so no, Byron was a lord in early 1800s. Very famous at the time for writing outrageous books, but also living in a very outrageous lifestyle, slept lots of people kind of the original rock star, he wrote a few things like, short story called The fragment, which kind of kind of flirts with the idea of the vampire, but then a doctor called John Polidori, who is actually a personal physician, he writes a novel novella called the vampire that along with a few others, similar time so sort of at 19 kickoff the vampire as we know it, a figure that's kind of walks among fast preys on people. It happens there. But then we also also in America, there is a another short story called The Black vampire, which is about a slave who comes back from the dead and wreaks havoc. Then you have a big Penny Dreadful called Vani. The Vampire, which goes for two years written by multiple people, and that really cements in the idea of the vampire as especially the kind of English aristocrat lives in a castle preys on people that really cements it in the popular imagination. But then you also have Camilla, that kind that is really famous book, which by an Irish author called Sheridan the Fanny. In that one, he basically sets up lesbian vampire queer, Love Story misunderstood. And then, at the turn of the century, we have Dracula in 1897, the well known story, and that's, that's where it all gets bedded in.

Nick VinZant 7:43

Dracula was the one that I always that jumps out to me, right? Yeah. Was that that big of a deal at the time? Or did that just kind of throughout as history is progressed, like we kind of not forgot about but the other ones got pushed to the back. And that one became the big one,

Theadora Jean 8:01

I think, okay, so when Dracula comes out, it's not this like huge, stupendous hit that changes literature forever is not that Dracula was written by a lot by Bram Stoker, and he was an Actor Manager. His his day job really was working in the theater, looking after some super famous actors and actresses. And he wasn't he was kind of like a midlist author who had who wrote regular horror stories, Dracula comes out. It gets met with like mixed reviews. But really the thing that cements it as this kind of iconic vampire King really is Nosferatu, the film that kind of brings the vampire onto the big stage has always been associated with Dracula. And really, Dracula has just gotten more and more popular as time has gone on, rather than less. I do have a couple of reviews that I could share with you really briefly.

Nick VinZant 9:09

This is for the original,

Theadora Jean 9:11

the original book when it comes out and 8097

Nick VinZant 9:15

Yeah, for would that be from Nosferatu then it's like that like that's scary. I remember maybe the way it was filmed with a grainy like a guy with those ears.

Theadora Jean 9:25

There is ya know, as far as he comes out, I think in 1922, so quite a while after, yeah, it never made him like big millions or you know, it never did. But I will just share with you. A couple that did did recognize the genius. Yeah. So weirdly is the Daily Mail that recognizes Dracula and says, the recollection of this weird and ghostly tale will doubtless haunt us for time to come. The eerie chapters are written together with concern Trouble art and cunning and unmistakable literary power. Persons of small courage and weakness should confine their reading of these gruesome pages strictly to the hours between Dawn and sunset.

Nick VinZant 10:12

Day. That's a good review.

Theadora Jean 10:15

Yeah, um, and I will also just share with you the American response, because I have the San Francisco Chronicle here, which says, the story is told in such a realistic way that one actually accepts its wildest flights of fancy as real facts. It is a superb tour de force, which stamps itself on the memory. So some people did like it.

Nick VinZant 10:39

Was it really that much better than the other ones? Or was it one of those things that like, it just hit at the right time, and it was pretty good

Theadora Jean 10:48

thing that made it into something more than it was really was the when the film came out long after he died, he never really got the recognition of the work that he did. I will tell you, famously, one of the things that he did was, so as I was saying, he was a manager of a theater. And he arranged for a theatrical performance of it in order to cement the copyright, because copyright laws were different them. And he wanted to make sure that if it did become big, and got put on the stage, and people made money out of it, he wanted his copyright. And in order to do that, he had to be the first to put on a production of it to cement that copyright. And the famous actor that he worked with was kind of like, I'm not gonna take part in this don't really, don't worry, I'm not really into this. And the script wasn't very good. So that that particular adaptation, it kind of sank like a stone,

Nick VinZant 11:50

I would imagine, right? And I don't know what I'm talking about. But I would imagine you go back into 18th 19th century morals, right, that this would have been like, oh, my gosh, was it just sensational? Or was that just Am I kind of thinking people were more crude than I thought that they were? I don't know if that's,

Theadora Jean 12:12

it's not that you're you're not wrong about the prude potentially being there. But the thing is about the book is the kind of like the way we see Dracula vampires today, they always have like, a bit of an erotic charge, you know, like the, the kind of, you know, the the physicality of it seems very obvious. But But the book itself, in a way, there's very much there's the good guys and the bad guys. And the bad guy is Dracula, and vampires. And there's kind of there are the scenes of gruesome violence, which are kind of recognized by the time by the reviewers and by the readers. But it's not seen in the same car. It's kind of just seen as just just plain old, horrible violence, just rather than having that kind of, like sexual undertone, if you see what I mean. So there was nothing when they're reading the text, they're reading it just as like, this vampire is taking the blog, they're not really seeing it as something that has any kind of subtext or anything beyond.

Nick VinZant 13:17

We're kind of I feel like we're used to sex and violence and they were used to violence.

Theadora Jean 13:21

Yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that. Yeah. But there's more that they're not seeing the sexual undertone.

Nick VinZant 13:28

But was it there? Because it seems to me like from the outside like Vampire, Dracula went from being scary to being sexy. Uh huh.

Theadora Jean 13:35

Yeah. Yeah. But I think when you read the book, it definitely, there's definitely a charge there. So when Jonathan is alone in the castle, there's just you know, there's the two men in the bed chamber for a star, then Jonathan gets approached by these three women that like, you know, licking their lips and climbing all over him. Like is there is just the Victorian audiences weren't so familiar with kind of sexual subtext. I would just say,

Nick VinZant 14:09

when would you say that it'd be kind of came, became overt, like as it goes out, like,

Theadora Jean 14:15

even Bela Lugosi kind of brings a kind of a seductive charm like he's alluring. He's kind of less kind of like ugly, Nosferatu strange, odd and more kind of dark, handsome heroes sorts of things. So I would even say from Bela Lugosi, and just I think just being on film, there's there's a real change from the text to something much more corporeal. It's like a very kind of physical male presence that is recognizably human. Whereas in the book, it's very much more is he even real? Is he not at home? I had a bad dream. Am I mentally ill. Is it a bat? Is it a wolf? Is it dust? Like what? What's happening there?

Nick VinZant 15:06

So in my mind, right, like, I go from Bram Stoker, like 1897. Yeah. And then I go to like, oh, and the next thing was twilight. Are there big vampire books, though in between that? Let's just call it 100 years.

Theadora Jean 15:22

Yes. Yeah. So there are a few. What I would say though, is 19th century does seem to be like core time for bedding in the vampire, right. But then after the Victorian era, when we're into the sort of war years, there aren't, I'm sure there are vampire stories, especially kind of beyond kind of UK, US. But in terms of the iconic ones that we would recognize as part of kind of the standard literature, I would really say, in 1954, when Robert Matheson rights I Am Legend, that is a biggie. They make three different films of that book. So there's that, but really, when Anne Rice and Stephen King in the 70s, Stephen King writes Salem's Lot, I think that's 1975. And then and Rice's interview with vampire is 1976. That along with the Film portrayals, so you have Frank Langella as Dracula in a Universal film, you probably won't remember it is kind of fallen by the wayside apart from myself, but at all. It was a big deal at the time, because Dracula becomes like it. Instead of the women being victims. They fancy him back, right. So there's a bit of a, we're changing now into the vampire as kind of not just kind of a seductive figure guys, like dangerous, but more one that is like a misunderstood other figure that has been unfairly maligned. I mean, an Rice's Interview with the Vampire puts you the all of a sudden the heroes of the story are the vampires. Right. So that really changes everything. But then you do have Twilight which comes out I think 2005 2006 That puts vampires back on the map again, of course. But there's also Octavia Butler's fledgling, which is science fiction. Bearing back more away from paranormal romance genre star and bit more into although it's science fiction, vampire, but still a bit more on the literary side. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 17:48

What do you think? It is about it that has always drawn us in?

Theadora Jean 17:53

Yeah, okay. So as long as you have k, the basic concept of the vampire, is this something that returns from the dead preys on the living sucks out the lifeforce that is a vampire. And that you can use that in so many different ways, right? Dracula is just one of many kinds of thought experiments that we can have about that kind of dynamic of something that lives on the threshold, something that is not alive, not dead, not not us, but sort of other at the same time. And the other aspect of the vampire that I think we'll always hone our imaginations is its relationship to capitalism, right. So Dracula has hordes of money. And famously, when he gets somebody tries to stab him in the book and outcomes a stream of gold, right? Because he has his lord of his manor. He's defeated lots of people and hundreds of years ago, and he has lots of different kinds of money. So that's Dracula. But even before then, the vampire the vampire isn't an aristocrat, right in your mind. Is somebody rich? Even? Yeah, lower

Nick VinZant 19:17

income vampire. Yeah,

Theadora Jean 19:18

exactly. Right. I'm sure there are some obviously, but that's that's what we think of the aristocrat in his castle. Yeah. So but then, even in something like in Marx's Das Kapital, right? He returns to the vampire language, or imagery in order to describe how capitalism works. And I have a little quotation for you. Can I share it with you? Yeah. Okay, so, Marx describes capital like this. Capital is dead labor. That vampire like only lives by sucking living labor and lives, the more the more labor it sucks, the time during which the labor works. The time during which the capitalist consumes the labor power that he has purchased off him. Right. So there is an AI and even if you think of Twilight, right, Edward is super rich. Yeah, that's part of his a lot. So as long as we have, I guess, an imbalance of resources, there's always going to be this concept of the vampire that can be moved around on different things with I guess, vampire is another word to explore exploitation, I think.

Nick VinZant 20:36

I guess I never really thought of it that way. But is that the original intention of the kind of authors? Or is that something though, that has evolved over time, and maybe people looking back? Like, oh, this is what they meant? Well,

Theadora Jean 20:52

I think I kind of think when Pete When authors write, I don't know if they always have like a specific like manifesto in that way. Yeah. But at the same time, if we go back, so I was talking to you about Byron, when his physician, John Polidori, writes the vampire, he is thinking, essentially, of Byron, as somebody that eases people, and drains them and ruins them. So even in fact, Varney the vampire, and Camilla, and Dracula, and all of these different ones, there's, there's some kind of way in which people are extracting, like a life force in whatever way you might want to take that is definitely embedded within the tax. That's kind of what being a vampire in some way is, is kind of taking taking some bits, like some kind of physical essence of somebody for your own regeneration.

Nick VinZant 21:45

Do you think most people kind of noticed that? Or is it one of those things that like we maybe we noticed subconsciously, right? Because I'm like, when I've read it, it's just like, Oh, it's a good story. But when you bring it up about like, oh, it could be a metaphor for capitalism, like, oh, yeah, I guess it kind of could

Theadora Jean 22:00

this. I mean, I wouldn't say the only way to interpret the vampire is to see it as a capitalist metaphor. But as long as we have capitalism, that's gonna be something that really easily can be used to talk about these things like in the Netflix film vampires in the Bronx, then if you've heard of that, haven't seen that one. Yeah. So funny little farm, where the vampires are property developers, which is perfect because it Dracula is a property developer, too.

Nick VinZant 22:32

Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Yeah, sure. How can we always remember the vampire and not the other characters in the books?

Theadora Jean 22:43

I actually am really pleased with that question, because it really goes to the heart of the actual novel. In the book itself, there is no specific hero. There is no one narrator. The book itself is composed of lots and lots of different pieces of writing. So like, tabloid articles, or one person's diary or another person's letter to somebody else, right? There's not like, one person's first person narration where they say, I went to the castle, I came back, we I went on this journey to destroy the vampire. That's not what happens. There are lots and lots of different voices. But the one thing that is constant is the threat of the vampire, right? So it makes sense that in all the different adaptations the TV series, the film's the book adaptations, all of the things that come in response to Dracula, there isn't there are different ways in which you can make the kind of hero of your little TV series right you can make it that Lucy's fiance author is the staff you can make it that it's Jonathan, you can make it that it's the girls Mina and Lucy, you can make it that really is a battle between Van Helsing and Dracula, right? Because the book lends that lends itself to that because it it doesn't have one strict kind of master voice, but you're following through the book. Yeah, I

Nick VinZant 24:20

can't think of any vampire story in which I didn't focus on the vampire,

Theadora Jean 24:24

the villain. fun bit, right.

Nick VinZant 24:27

Who is the best character around Dracula though in any kind of fictional universe that you'd be like? Oh, that's that character is interesting, even though they're not Dracula.

Theadora Jean 24:39

Well, for me personally, my my research focuses on Mina will you remember her? Do you remember of us least seen the film with Winona

Nick VinZant 24:49

Ryder is Winona Ryder. Yes,

Theadora Jean 24:53

in a way for me if if there is a hero, it's meaner or maybe meaner and haha husband Jonathan, because it kind of centers around her in that her husband Jonathan goes off. Then we have some correspondence between her and her best friend Lucy. It's her friend Lucy that gets annihilated by first the vampire and then the vampire hunters, right. And then in the latter part of the book, she's the one managing all the knowledge. She's putting together the timetables, she's realizing that she can access what the vampire is doing because she has been bitten by him, which means he has a telepathic connection to him, which means she knows where he is. Right? And she kind of manages the group. She is also very interesting because she hovers between being a kind of conventional, attractive, kind of typically gendered woman in that, you know, she's engaged and then she gets married to Jonathan, she doesn't overstep the mark right she's not very overtly radical but in actuality what she's doing is she's she's she's kind of taken charge of the of the narration. And she's she's putting she's she's leaving the team, right, but she's she's not doing it with too much ego, right? She's just like, politely gathering everyone together.

Nick VinZant 26:24

Is there any other big character around kind of vampire lore? Besides Dracula, that really jumps are the only other one I would think of is like Van Helsing.

Theadora Jean 26:34

Van Van Helsing is has become very iconic in itself. So you even have a Netflix series just on the Van Helsing legacy now, as well as the film but there's also a film on Van Helsing but in a way that derives from the book Dracula. I would also say Camilla is like, like like a secret echo of Dracula. So whenever you think of like a vampiric female presence is normally like, in some way. It's been inspired by Sheridan, the Fanny's Carmilla also has this kind of iconic status that is just kind of just goes a little bit under the radar. But when you think of a woman vampire, when you think of some kind of like, formidable force that is kind of maybe has a bit of lesbian quality, and I don't know if Did you ever watch Castlevania? Yeah, yeah. Do you ever Camila. And that

Nick VinZant 27:41

started the first Caesars just like you are. So she Carmilla is now that that predates the kind of Bram Stoker stuff, or that is after it predates and that's more from a female Dracula dragon.

Theadora Jean 28:00

Yeah. So even though it was written by a man, the story is, there is a girl called Laura, who meets a woman or teenage girl, same as her who is a countess, and is basically sending her blood in the night. But they have a certain kind of friendship that goes that falls into romance. But the idea about Camila is obviously, the the narrator Laura believes that she is the same age as her but actually, no, she's hundreds and hundreds of years old and she has her own castle and all those things. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 28:40

What do you think that like Bram Stoker would think of all of the different interpretations, right where Dracula can be scary. Funny, sexy, unclear gender unclear sexual preferences. Like what do you think of it? I think most famous author would think about, like Twilight and interview with no, yeah, all those different ways that it has gone.

Theadora Jean 29:09

Honestly, Bram Stoker, we think of Bram Stoker as this weird little guy, but actually, he was the strapping strong, charming Irishman who loved socializing with people, and famously even jumped into the Thames to save somebody's life once or attempt to save somebody's life. He was a good guy. And I think that he would have been honored to see his creation on film in all the different permeations because obviously, he dies before we even really have film and cinema right. But he is in love with the London theatre scene and performance and storytelling, and I think he just would have been amazed to think of his work becoming a as well known, I mean, Dracula goes is beyond even the book now is part of our like discourse as to how we understand popular culture, you know, and I think in particular, he would have probably liked Christopher Lee in the Hammer Horror films. I think they're quite akin to the actors that he worked with Henry Irving, who famously did big performances of Mephistopheles, and he played a good villain, right? And Christopher Lee is quite, I think, is quite odd. In that vein in the Dracula movies, certainly, I know that Bram Stoker was very interested in gender issues. And he writes other things about men and women. And he's kind of intrigued by like the the new the new things that we can think about men and women. So for example, he writes about, Van Helsing in Dracula writes about Mina that she is, has like a woman's grace, but a man's brain she has like intelligence and adventure and all of those things. And he admires that about her. And I think that definitely comes through in the book. So I'm not sure that he would have, you know, been a total card carrying feminist in the way that we we would now think of those kinds of topics. But I know that I don't know. But I like to think that he would have just been, I've just been amazed by all the different interpretations and to just see his his construction on the big screen, I just think, I don't think he would have really cared what we made of whether it's what the vampire is or not just that that power, the power of the performance and the villain, I think he just would have been like life made.

Nick VinZant 31:50

When you think of this interpretation of Dracula, what is your first kind of thoughts about it? So like Bram Stoker's Dracula,

Theadora Jean 32:02

I think of a sexual predator. That's what I think Bram Stoker's Dracula is about. The thing that he does is he invades bedrooms and he invades bodies. That's, and I think if we were going to have an adaptation that really spoke to that, it will be an 18th. And it would be horrible.

Nick VinZant 32:22

What did the movie like? How did how well did that kind of capture it?

Theadora Jean 32:27

Well, I don't think there has been an adaptation that is actually that close to the book, I think. And in a way it can't be right because the film adaptation or TV adaptation is always gonna have to fit the form right and adhere to the directors intentions and the writers intentions. For me, Nosferatu is one of the closest in fact, it invokes the strange ugliness, this thing creeping closer and closer and the characters can't get away from it. That kind of summons the like spirit of the novel for me. But I would also say Freddy Krueger is actually very Dracula for me. He comes in the night he's in dreams. You're not sure if you're awake or asleep. When he famously says down the phone, I'm your boyfriend now. Fast Dracula. I'm coming for you. I'm interrupting. Like, I don't know if you remember, but there's two characters. One is blonde one is a brunette in the Nightmare on Elm Street series. And they're very what what like, when you think of Mina and Lucy they're often blonde and brunette. And the brunette is the one that is sort of the final girl. I also think the Slenderman phenomenon is very Dracula. I don't do you know about the Slenderman? Yeah. So in terms of this fictional thing, so it comes up on the internet. So you're, you're in the ether. Now you're in cyberspace, you're in this sort of dream space, that isn't the real world, right? And there are all these multiple different ways in which the speaker can appear. This kind of Gothic dark thing that you can't put your finger on, but it's again, coming closer and closer. Like, is it real, is it not? And it seems to have kind of summoned lots of different interpretations. So if you go on the internet, there's loads of different kinds of pictures, but still kind of recognizable much like Dracula, in that there's, there's almost countless amounts of films, adaptations, literary versions, or rewrites as well as Sesame Street, Count Dracula, all of those different things right. And Slenderman is a bit like that. It can be put in diff When put in different modes, but still was recognizable as that same scary dark figure. That's kind of in the imagination.

Nick VinZant 35:09

Edward Cullen from Twilight,

Theadora Jean 35:11

I have no strong feelings. I think it's okay for people to have fun and have a gothic romance if that's what they want to do. I think there's better vampire books out there but you know, that's fine.

Nick VinZant 35:23

Our vampire scholar purists though a little bit annoyed that like that's, that's,

Theadora Jean 35:30

that's, that's the one that's the most I guess if you want to say vampire purist vampire critics, I think basically kind of ignore ignore the series because there's so many other interesting vampire books that you can talk about and look at. But I mean, I would say for me, I quite like when there are new series new adaptations, more kind of Gothic adaptations and things that bring back to life the kind of creepy the supernatural is always fun for me so so for example, with BBCs recent Dracula, I don't know if you saw it with close bang. No. Well, there's a three part series that came out. I'm not sure if it's in the US or not, but I hate I hated that series. I did not care for it one bit. I thought it was terrible, but it kind of it just kind of puts my work back on the map and it continues to discourses continues the conversation. So I think there's room for a bit of teenage crush on Edward Cullen, I think

Nick VinZant 36:43

better fictional vampire to count from Sesame Street or Count Chocula from cereal?

Theadora Jean 36:51

Um, is gonna be Sesame Street, right?

Nick VinZant 36:56

It does Count Chocula accurate in any in any way.

Theadora Jean 37:03

But what I will say is, it's kind of weird. It's kind of weird that this horrible 19th century story about a weird vampire that comes from far away to prey on people in London. Then ends up as a kid's car team thing like I don't really get it. But here we are.

Nick VinZant 37:26

vampire power you would like to have vampire power you would not want to have

Theadora Jean 37:32

I don't think I want any of that vampire share my life man. I'm happy to just die and be filled my grave

Nick VinZant 37:40

Yeah, the price is the price is too much.

Theadora Jean 37:44

I don't want to be damned. I don't want my other half to look at me and be like stay away. D

Nick VinZant 37:50

Yeah, that's comes it comes with too much baggage. So where does like the Vlad the Impaler stuff come in? Is that a later invention? Or was that always the basis for it or idea behind it?

Theadora Jean 38:05

Yeah. So Vlad the Impaler comes in really with Dracula. Right. So Bram Stoker spent about seven years doing his research for the book and writing it and making notes and things like that. And when he is doing his research, he goes to work B. He goes to Scotland and kind of sets up the atmosphere and things like that. And there is a kind of, I guess you could say critical debate as to whether Vlad the Impaler was a direct influence or if he had Vlad the Impaler in his mind when he writes Dracula. Some people think yes, he was inspired by the speaker and that is what creates Dracula. Some people say there's no evidence for that. But either way, it's he was definitely thinking of a kind of powerful Lord figure akin to Vlad the Impaler when he's creating the character of Dracula. And so after that, there's kind of it's kind of like in in the imagination of of us all really that it kind of makes us a little bit borderline is Dracula real was the real guy is a something that actually is still there lurking away in the kind of cemeteries of some strange Castle far away. So it's kind of a fun thing. But yeah, it's part of the potential mythology, not just around vampires, but specifically, Bram Stoker's writing of Dracula.

Nick VinZant 39:47

Best depiction of vampire in movies or TV shows worst depiction.

Theadora Jean 39:56

Best I'm gonna say I know I've mentioned this writer a few times, but I'm gonna mention those frosty one last time when he comes up on the ship. Do you remember that pop? Yes emerges and all of a sudden it's just this fucking weird thing and none of the guys can do anything about it. And he's comment, right? That is to me that's pure this pure drag, right? This is what I was saying about him his apprentice phase freakin scary. And he's coming and you're helpless, right? Worst? What did you say of Dracula or vampires? Either one? Yeah, I would just say I'll just say Twilight, the Twilight series. But I will also give a little shout out to near dark film about vampires. That was very good as well.

Nick VinZant 40:43

Have you seen any of the funny ones? Like what we do in the shadows?

Theadora Jean 40:47

Oh, yeah, they're really good, fun.

Nick VinZant 40:50

I, I am of the personal opinion that the energy vampire is one of the greatest characters of the last years. Like it's so well done. I love Colin Robinson.

Theadora Jean 41:03

Yes, he is very good. But can I give you some literary insight into that? Secretly when Dracula comes out in 1897, another vampire novel came out by a lady called Florence Mariette called the blood of the vampire. And this was a psychic vampire the story of a psychic vampire. She's Creole. And so at the exact same time as Dracula comes out, there's also this idea of less something that is preying on, like sucking blood from the neck, but is just every everybody basically everything she loves that she touches and loves. She basically destroys by taking that lifeforce. And yeah, so psychic energy vampire, but taking it seriously.

Nick VinZant 41:55

Has Frankenstein ever been as big as Dracula?

Theadora Jean 41:58

Ah, what a great question. Right. So Frankenstein. Okay, so how are we determining bank? Right? So it's difficult to say. In terms of adaptation, I would probably say Dracula, I think, I don't know, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every film ever made. But I would say Dracula has probably been at, made into film or TV more times than Frankenstein. Right? There's even this there's two films coming out next year, just by Universal Dracula adaptations. There's Renfield, which is a riff on that character. And then there's also the last voyage of the Demeter which is just set on the boat. So that there's something about Dracula that people just love to mix up and remix and do something new with Frankenstein less so excepts, right. There is an idea that Frankenstein is actually the birth of science fiction as a genre, right? Not all critics will agree with me on this, some definitely see recognize Frankenstein as the beginning the kind of original science fiction novel, some will go a little bit earlier. Yeah, there's a whole minefield out that I'm opening myself up to with that, but I'm gonna lay my sticker on the table. Yeah, I'm gonna put my cousin's name on say, Yes, I would say Frankenstein begets science fiction, because it's the first kind of sustained attention to what I would see is what all science fiction comes down to, which is an introduction of a new technology. And then dealing with the consequences of that new technology. Almost any science fiction, whether it's set, 300 years in the future, 3000 years in the future, whether it's near future, and there's a virus, whatever it is, science fiction is always interested in that new technology plus a consequence. So you could then say Frankenstein has a far bigger impact, and more popularity, I guess you could say. I just want to give you an example. Right? Dress talk? Yeah. Okay, what happens in Jurassic Park, in science fiction, there's a science, there's a lab, a scientist takes up bits of different dead creatures and brings them to life. That's Frankenstein. And then they deal with the consequences, right? And that consequences is dangerous to the people that created the thing in the first place. This Jurassic Park is Frankenstein.

Nick VinZant 44:39

Now you can think of so many examples of that, right? Like the ones that just jump out of my head is like iRobot we can create robots that take over the world like Yeah, it's really interesting how there's all these different stories, but they come back to really all being the same story. Like there's only a couple ones, right? Yeah, kind of the same thing.

Theadora Jean 45:01

I mean, it's kind of true and not true. Like people have such rich imaginations. People are doing so like new different things all the time, right? But at the same time, yeah, there's there is this idea that there's a few, I heard this one thing that's like there's two stories. One is a person goes on a trip. And the other story is a stranger comes to town. Those are the two stories. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Nick VinZant 45:28

Yeah, they pretty much all come like all come together in that sense, right? That one seems to his Frankenstein changed in the same ways that that Dracula has changed over the years. Is Frankenstein always kind of Frankenstein?

Theadora Jean 45:42

Ah, to be honest, I just think that Dracula and Frankenstein are very similar in that for whatever reason. These two stories get written in London, England in the 1900s. And they create monsters, and for some reason, we've just not been able to get over it. 100 years later, we're still like, riffing off those ideas that those monsters kind of put into motion. I don't think there is another monster figure that is iconic and memorable in the same way like most kids will still know Frankenstein or like, ah, Dracula, like we as part of our popular consciousness as part of the mythology of like, it's part of our storytelling. Like,

Nick VinZant 46:37

I would go, Dracula one. Frankenstein to werewolf three.

Theadora Jean 46:45

I really agree. I would agree. Well, it's a kind of a funny one. I feel like people for some reason, vampire is kind of acceptable. Like, you can have a cool vampire. Right? You can have the last books. Yeah, yeah. But well, it's just always a little bit ludicrous.

Nick VinZant 47:05

Yeah, somehow it's too far fetched. It is.

Theadora Jean 47:08

I do find it strange. But also funny because I feel like a werewolf is also a little bit more possible, right? Because the only change is like into a different it's a different kind of animal. He hasn't died and come back to life. He doesn't have a mortal powers. He's just gotten a bit more in touch with his best your side

Nick VinZant 47:26

is much more limited. Right? Like that could happen.

Theadora Jean 47:30

Yeah, I get like you could get more hairy. You could get more doglike. I think right? Yeah.

Nick VinZant 47:35

It's weird how that works out.

Theadora Jean 47:37

But that like if you say well, was that just sounds silly.

Nick VinZant 47:41

Yeah, there's something about it you like? Um, that's pretty much that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else you think that we missed? Or? Kind of people want to learn more about this one of their more about you? What should they?

Theadora Jean 47:54

Oh, wow. I guess I would say that if you want to know about me, I also write some Gothic stories. I've written a vampire story or to my time, a bit of flash fiction ghost stories ghost stories. My main thing probably, you can check out my work. My pen name is tsj. howling. So that's me. But in terms of Dracula, I would just say I guess I tell you what, I'll give you one other adaptation which you might want to check out. Yeah. Which is not strictly a Dracula adaptation. But Midnight Mass on Netflix, it's a vampire story. It's not strictly Dracula. But if you there's just a lot of similarities there and it's genuinely scary. And I like that about the about the about the series because like I say, like, I don't feel like like most Dracula is either kind of like 12 rating, whereas Midnight Mass actually did make me feel a bit uncomfortable and scared watching it. So yeah, check it out.

Nick VinZant 49:04

Is there one that's like really scary that like what would you say is the scariest of all the vampire stuff?

Theadora Jean 49:14

I don't know. I don't know that I've ever found that. I want I want that. 18 I want that. Right. Like I kind of think it's always too much. Because if you really go there is a horror is kind of a horrible story. Right? And it? I don't know that it would be popular with modern audiences like Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula they had to make him into a love a romantic figure to bring into life even though technically he like Francis will couple of would have you believe that the this is the most accurate and faithful to the novel adaptation that there is but that's not true. He invents a whole love story between him Amina, which is not in the book at all quite the opposite.