Fine Art Detective Richard Ellis has spent the last 50 years finding stolen works of art all over the world. We talk the biggest cases of art theft, the smartest criminals and the one case he’s still trying to solve. Then, we unveil a new Candle of the Month and countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Doors.

Richard Ellis: 01: 24

Pointless: 34:29

Candle of the Month: 53:02

Top 5 Doors: 55:59

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Interview with Fine Art Detective Richard Ellis

Nick VinZant 0:00

Nick, welcome to profoundly pointless. My name is Nick vinzant Coming up in this episode art theft and doors.

Richard Ellis 0:20

I always work on a basis of looking at a crime, how it was committed, and asking the question, are we dealing with a thief or an art thief? Very well thought through time, the paintings weren't taken for their historic value. They were taken because they were the ones that would fit through the first real window. But they had a list of the kind of Forbes, most richest people in the world that they were going to be offering the National Gallery collection too. I mean, they were seriously dumb.

Nick VinZant 0:52

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance subscribe, leave us a rating or a review. We really appreciate. It really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So I want to get right to our first guest, because for the last 50 years, he's investigated some of the biggest art crimes in the world. This is Art detective Richard Ellis, so How common is art theft?

Richard Ellis 1:25

Art theft is relatively common. You have to appreciate 80% round about that mark of art theft occurs from people's homes, from churches. And they are not all the iconic works of art that you read about in the news headlines

Nick VinZant 1:43

when we talk about art theft, right? So my mind immediately goes to like the movies and these big heists and things like that. Is that usually what we're talking about when it's art theft? Or is it? No, it's more mundane than that. The

Richard Ellis 1:58

major thefts are the ones that make the headlines, they're the ones who read about they make movies about. But by far and away, most art theft is less alone works usually 10,000 pounds or under in value that are very easily fed back into what is still a global market.

Nick VinZant 2:19

When you kind of look at it like when people steal art, do they generally know what they're stealing, or is it just like I'm breaking into this nice house, there's a piece of artwork I'm going to grab it.

Richard Ellis 2:31

That's a good question. I always work on a basis of looking at a crime, how it was committed, and asking the question, are we dealing with a thief or an art thief? An art thief always knows what they're going to do with the objects they steal, and a thief is struggling to dispose of what is, generally speaking, identifiable property, which requires a specific type of marketplace to be sold back into.

Nick VinZant 3:03

How can you tell the difference, like going into a scene, so to speak, like, how can you tell the difference between, okay, that was an art thief. This was just a thief.

Richard Ellis 3:10

Most burglars would allow themselves no more than three minutes in a house, and in that time, they will tear around, they'll pull open drawers, they'll have a good look good rummage. They'll grab the electrical, the computer, the camera. They'll grab the stuff that glitters, silver jewelry, and, of course, cash. They're very unlikely unless they know what they're doing to take the painting above the mantelpiece. If the painting above the mental piece has gone, then you're likely dealing with somebody that knows what their knows what they've taken

Nick VinZant 3:47

in the things that you've investigated was the criminal, usually pretty smart in the sense, like, oh, they did this, they did that, or, like, no, they just broke a window and opened the door.

Richard Ellis 3:55

Well, you know, sometimes breaking a window or opening a door is the easy way in. If you look at the break in at Blenheim Palace a few years ago where they stole the golden toilet named America, the criminals knew how long it would take for the police to arrive at the scene. They knew how long they got to force an entry to actually get up to Blenheim Palace across country, breaking their way through two sets of iron gates that were held in position with hydraulic rams. They knew exactly how long it would take them, and they didn't go in through the door. They went in through a window, which gave them, dropped them into a corridor and right in front of the doorway, in into the room in which Winston Churchill had been born, through into the adjacent anteroom, which took them into the next corridor, where the closet was where. Where America was fitted, and they simply ripped it after its fittings, rolled it back through the two rooms and out through the window and away before the police had arrived. So it wasn't a sophisticated burglary, but it was the easiest and quickest way in and out, and that's what you're looking at some some burglars can be incredibly clever. I always think of there were good few years ago, about 10 years ago now, maybe even 15, there was a burglary at the Van Gough Museum in Amsterdam, and there the criminals climbed in. They broke in through the roof, through a skylight. They descended two flights of stairs, grabbed these two Van Gogh paintings out through a window and absail down to the floor below, driving off in the waiting car as the police arrived. Very well executed burglary. Very well thought through time, the paintings weren't taken for their historic value. They were taken because they were the ones that would fit through the first real window. It

Nick VinZant 6:09

is convenience at the end of it, right? Like they plan it out, but they are going to do the simplest possible way and grab, yeah, yeah. I

Richard Ellis 6:17

mean, they, they could have, they had the choice of the museum, you know that they they took those because they were en route to the window and they fitted those two Van Goghs that they took. Happened to be two incredibly important Van Goghs, as it turned out. But they, they didn't really know that the marketplace into which they were selling them was the Amsterdam drugs market. So they had a buyer lined up, who, unfortunately for them, was killed before they had time to sell it to him. So they sold it to another Italian drug trafficker, and the paintings made their way to Italy, where ultimately they were recovered, buried in the wall of a mafioso kitchen. That's

Nick VinZant 7:04

what I was going to ask. Is like, when you talk about stealing art, like, if you're stealing these really valuable pieces, who are they selling it to?

Richard Ellis 7:11

Well, that's the lesser known works of art, the 80% if you like, of what gets stolen on a daily basis can be turned around and put back through the art market. It may take a little bit of moving around, crossing a border or to whatever, but you can very quickly get a not particularly well known work of art, which still may be worth a few $1,000 pounds, whatever you like, because it's an international commodity. The other the Van Goghs of this world, they line up a marketplace which is entirely criminal, and these objects are going to be used as collateral within the criminal world, they're not going to fetch anything like their market value. But even so, that's a percentage, and when you're dealing in large sums, you know, as a percentage, is still a lot of money. And they can use these objects generally get used as collateral or as a currency in their own right, paying for other criminal commodities, like drugs, like arms, like people trafficking. You know, it's just a means to an end.

Nick VinZant 8:22

So when somebody's stealing something, that's probably worth a lot, is that more professional? Those are kind of like, they're doing this all over the place. They're involved in other things. Yeah,

Richard Ellis 8:32

you're going to you're going to be looking at organized crime, but you're going to be looking at, again, criminals who understand art and how to use it again. There was a phenomenally cleverly executed theft about five or six years ago at a bonded warehouse at Heathrow Airport, and the criminals broke in through the roof, they abseiled down about 3040, feet without setting off any motion detectors. They knew exactly what they were looking for within this warehouse, which were three trunks being shipped from Italy to New York, and they contained Rare Books belonging to three specific book dealers, Italian book dealers, and they were en route to a Book Fair in New York, and they broke into these trunks. They took a large number of books, and they left by the same way they came in without setting off any of the alarms. Three or four years later, every single book was recovered, buried under a path in Romania. So you were looking at organized crime. Criminals were arrested in Romania, in Italy and London, in a joint Europol exercise police exercise. So they got the criminals, the criminals themselves. Recognized the rarity, the value, but then found, actually, we don't know what to do with the things, so they buried them until perhaps, you know, Mr. Wright came along, being the buyer, and they could, could make some kind of sale, but they just didn't know what to do with the things. So that's the difference between your art theft and, you know, your art thief and a thief don't

Nick VinZant 10:21

do they ever get sold on the I don't know what like do they ever get sold to private collectors? That's like, okay, person X, who's a millionaire billionaire, like, I'm gonna buy this thing secretly.

Richard Ellis 10:36

No, I've been doing this for, you know, nine or 50 years now, investigating art crime, and I think I've recovered more than anybody else, any other individual investigator in this field, and in all that time, I've never come across the collector who openly buys stolen goods or commissions the theft of of iconic works, they just don't exist. That's, that's a myth of Hollywood.

Nick VinZant 11:06

I guess it makes sense, right? Like, if you're going to collect it, you got to show it off, and you want to show it off to people who know what it is, and if they know what it is, then they're going to tell somebody that that was stolen. And like, Hey, and don't

Richard Ellis 11:17

forget, if you're, if you're commissioning, if you're commissioning, thieves to commit a crime. You're dealing with criminals from the outset, and generally with iconic works of art, the institution or the government or the insurers will offer a reward for their return. And most criminals will find a way in which they will shop like if someone's commissioned a crime they've executed. They will shop their their commissioner and claim the reward as well. So, you know, they're not going to stand by and say, Oh, well, we we're not going to tell anybody where this is. You know, there's an extra few 100,000 of a reward on offer. We're not going to touch that. Of course, they'll go for it. They'll shop the the collector, if, if, if anything was actually commissioned, but it, you know that it's just a most people, when they suffer a theft, even museum curators, they can't believe that such a rare object has gone from the museum's collection, and they instantly assume that someone's going to play to actually pay what it's worth to have it, but they're not. They don't. These things will always go from, as I say, quite a small percentage of their actual value. And you know, these collectors just don't exist. What you're dealing with is organized crime.

Nick VinZant 12:40

So how did you get into this?

Richard Ellis 12:45

Well, first and foremost, I joined the police, Metropolitan Police in London when I was 19. When I was 20, my parents home was burgled, and the family silver was stolen. And I knew the first available marketplace, because I always had an interest, you know, a hobby in art, antiques. And I knew the first available market that this stuff could be sold at was, you know, within 36 hours, I happened to be working nights, I went straight down to the market, recognized the family silver, and arrested the stallholders. We then arrested a incredibly professional art and anti Art and Antique thief. And, yeah, you know, I've been doing it ever since.

Nick VinZant 13:31

So how do you investigate an art theft? Is it different than other kinds of crimes?

Richard Ellis 13:38

Yes, it is different. Actually, one of the big differences, actually, is that the the owners are very interested in recovering their stolen property, even if it's objects of little value. They've come by them because, you know, they like to go out and buy they've started a collection, and these pieces mean something to them personally, or they've inherited them. And then, of course, there can be an even bigger attachment to them, because they've come down through the family. So people actually want it back. If it's a computer or, you know, that's been stolen, most people are pretty glad that it's annoying. You know, they may have lost what was on the computer, but if it's all backed up somewhere on the cloud, they can get that back, and they end up with the insurers paying for the latest model. So actually, they're quite happy about that. So that's the first and foremost that people want the stuff back. The other thing is, of course, that unlike your computer, which is devaluing by the day as it gets older and new models are brought out, antiques tend to increase in value the older they become. So from a police perspective, you have those two elements to deal with. There is a conflict of interest between the police, generally, and the owners, because the owners want to get the things back first and foremost, the crew and the police want to get the criminals first and foremost. And sometimes where they get the criminals and prosecute them, but don't get the property back, they don't bother to then, you know, continue looking for the stuff that's kind of very much left up to the owner or the insurer or the institution to continue looking and hopefully to recover the stuff.

Nick VinZant 15:31

Is it usually harder to get the criminal or harder to get the stuff back?

Richard Ellis 15:35

Oh, both can be extremely difficult. I've said you know that the art market is a global market. Objects tend to move. They can move big distances. They can move move across international borders, and that makes the investigation of them difficult because the formalities that law enforcement have to go to to be able to conduct investigations in other countries can be, you know, quite they can be difficult. Let's put it that way. It's not made easy for law enforcement, whereas it's very easy for the criminals to move these things across the borders. Then you've also got the other aspect of jurisdictional law that applies to the recovery of these objects. So if you recover your goods stolen in America, let's say, and you find it's being offered for sale in Switzerland, you've got big problems, because you've got different laws that pertain to ownership. So it gets very complex, and it can become very, very difficult to recover objects, and that's before you start applying statutes of limitation, which again muddy the waters.

Nick VinZant 16:56

So what would like, what would your success rate be I find it 80% 10% of the time, 50%

Richard Ellis 17:04

I'm not saying my my personal success rate, but the success rate in the recovery of art and antiques is abysmally low. It's round about the three, five, maybe as high as 7% which means that you're talking in the 90% of stuff that does not get recovered, and that's across the board, that's in most countries. That makes

Nick VinZant 17:30

sense to me, actually, why it would be so low. Because, like, how do you even find it? Because it could be anywhere. Is it usually the kind of thing when you catch somebody that, like, okay, they stole it from a museum, and it turns out to be the brother of the security guard, right? Like, is it usually some kind of connection that allows you to figure this out

Richard Ellis 17:52

depends on the object. Largely, we've recently seen this theft from the British Museum that is not entirely unique to institutions, libraries and museums where they lose objects is quite a high percentage of those objects are taken by members of staff and for all sorts of different reasons. Museums, institutions tend to have the bigger security budget, and so little is stolen, if you like, by the front door. It goes out the back. When you start talking about people's homes, private collections, religious institutions, it's the reverse. You know, most stuff goes out through the front door, like,

Nick VinZant 18:44

if it's going to be something with a big security, right, it's got to be somebody who kind of knows how that security works. But if it's some place, like home or church, could just be anybody, largely,

Richard Ellis 18:54

but also, you'll, you'll find that where they're going, for the big numbers, the criminals do a lot of research. If you take the screen, which was one of the paintings that I was involved in the recovery of stolen from the National Gallery in Oslo in 1994 the man that organized that theft made repeated visits to the gallery to assess security and work out the easiest way in which to steal that painting. So they will go and they will check on the security and where you have a major art theft, you will find that the criminals have been in they will have reconnoitered. They will have seen the Achilles heel in security, and that's what they'll go

Nick VinZant 19:36

for. How do you then investigate that you're just kind of looking through security footage and CCTV

Richard Ellis 19:41

can help you. Maybe you know, for instance, an increasingly facial recognition might tell you actually who the names of the people are. You're looking at the forensic examination of the scene of the crime, hopefully to find some DNA or other. Or, you know, fingerprints or other identifying evidence that you'll be able to utilize. I personally, you know, I am of an era where, you know, today's methods of investigation, you know, DNA was only just coming in when I retired from law enforcement, so I was much more reliant on, shall we say, a much more old fashioned way, which was talking to people and learning from informants, you know, criminals that I would know, that I would go and talk to and ask questions of as to what they knew about the crime and who committed it,

Nick VinZant 20:40

and that this word kind of spread fast work

Richard Ellis 20:43

and spread very quickly. You may even get advanced warning. A few years ago, there was going to be an exhibition, a diamond exhibition, at the Natural History Museum in London. They were forewarned of the robbery that was going to be attempted on that exhibition, which would have put not just the museum staff but the public at risk in its execution, so they simply canceled the exhibition and it never took place. So you know, you can get wind of these things in advance, but otherwise you're reliant on playing catch up.

Nick VinZant 21:21

Are you ready for some harder slash? Listener submitted questions. Yes, fire away. What's your biggest case?

Richard Ellis 21:27

I think probably the biggest case, just in terms of the value of the objects, the length of time I was investigating it, and the difficulties connected with the investigation, was something called the sev silver. There's a horde of Roman silver that was when it came on the market in 1990 it was said to have come from the Lebanon. There was also a rival account of it having come from Yugoslavia, or, to be specific, Croatia, as it later became. And another claim from Hungary, all claiming this horde of Roman silver came from their jurisdiction, from their territory, and every single one of them saying it's part of our national patrimony, we must have it back. That was finally resolved in 2017 it was a highly complex investigation, which I continue to work on after I retired from law enforcement on behalf of the Hungarians. And you can see the sev so silver today in the National Gallery in in Budapest, as it was found to have come from Hungary.

Nick VinZant 22:37

Is there is that common to have a big argument among countries about, well, whose is this really?

Richard Ellis 22:42

It can be particularly with antiquities. You know, we've largely been talking about fine art and antiques, but when you start looking at the world of Antiquities, these are archeological items generally, then they come to the market with no provenance, nobody knows exactly where they've come from, and it is very, very common to then have rival claims and for matters to go through the courts, who are left to decide who has who has the better claim. And again, part of the investigation scientific evidence to support the claims will all be important to that court hearing.

Nick VinZant 23:26

Smartest criminal, dumbest criminal, oh, I

Richard Ellis 23:30

think that I can answer the letter first. The two dumbest must be the two guys that thought they'd break into the National Gallery in London one night and came to London armed for the occasion, with dummy grenades, imitation handguns, handcuffs to tie the guards up with, and some gemmies to force open the back doors. They arrived nice and early in London and parked their car and went off to buy some cigarettes, and when they came back, it had been clamped. And they were acting. They would. They used one of their gemmies to try and force the wheel clamp off. And the police arrived and arrested them for causing damage the wheel clamp. But when they opened the car up, they found all this stuff to go and break in and they get, they admitted they were going to, you know, they were targeting the National Gallery, but they had a list of the kind of Forbes, most richest people in the world that they were going to be offering the National Gallery collection to. I mean, they were seriously dumb. So I think that's the easiest one.

Nick VinZant 24:38

Man, there is no end to dumb criminals,

Richard Ellis 24:44

the brightest crimes like the Van Gogh Museum, a chap called Durham was his name, Dutchman. He admitted ultimately, I mean, he was caught because when he hit the ground and. Abseil down the front of the building, the cap he was wearing shot off, and they were able to recover that and got his DNA from from his hat, so he was identified, and he went to prison. Then it wasn't till after he came out from prison that that the paintings were ultimately recovered in a in Italian guarded a financier investigation into this mafioso, and there they found these paintings walled up that he was going to use as a Get Out of Jail Free card, you know, negotiate his way into freedom by handing back these paintings so his wasn't to be used as collateral or anything like that. It was for other criminal purposes. But, the guys that actually committed that Durham, it was a well researched and executed crime. It wasn't violent in as much as you know, they didn't shoot the place out. They wouldn't threaten anybody personally, it was well researched, well executed, and they dispose of the goods, you know, you know, hats off to him. That was a well carried out crime.

Nick VinZant 26:06

Why are the major ones usually found? Is that just too many people looking for them? Like, why are the major ones usually found? Yeah,

Richard Ellis 26:14

the major ones are found for a number of reasons. When you have something like the screamed, always most important cultural object, really, when that gets stolen, the resources the Norwegians put behind recovering it were enormous. They were fortunate in that, you know, I was on the Art and Antique squad at Scotland Yard at the time, and we sat down and discussed, is the screen likely to come to London? And the answer was yes, because London is by far and away Europe's largest art market. Therefore it attracts by far and away Europe's largest number of art criminals as well. They go hand in glove. So the chances were that it was going to come through London. So we prepared an undercover operation with the help of the Getty Museum. I say I was working a lot out in LA in particular, and had good relations with them, and they supported us, and we were able to then execute that undercover operation and recover the screen. So, you know, huge resources were applied to its recovery, far more so than you would have found if it had been, you know, well, my family's silver stolen from our house, you know, when I was 20. You know that that was only recovered because I spent so many years cleaning the damn stuff, I'd recognize it anywhere. And there it was, sitting on a on a stall in a market. That's the difference. It's the kind of resources that get applied because of the importance of the object. When an object gets stolen from a major institution, it's it's in the institution because it's an important object, and that generally fires up major investigations. They'll be covered by gov by government indemnity, in terms of insurance and governments want their collections back.

Nick VinZant 28:07

Do you have one that got away, like I never figured that one out?

Richard Ellis 28:12

Yeah, the one that has defeated all of us investigators in art crime, the Isabella Stewart garden Museum in Boston, 1990 St Patrick's at Eve that the eve of St Patrick's Day, two guys went into the museum disguised as Boston police officers, tied the guards up and walked out with, you know, a phenomenal art collection, which has never, ever been recovered. There's today, there's a ten million reward on the information that lead to the recovery of those works of art. Not a whisper,

Nick VinZant 28:54

no clues, no nothing.

Richard Ellis 28:57

And that's since 1994 there is the risk that they could have been destroyed. Of course, but no, that's that is the big one. That's the holy grail for art investigators.

Nick VinZant 29:09

Do you think it will ever happen? Or is it like so much time has passed, like I don't know.

Richard Ellis 29:16

No, I'm funny enough. I was asked to give a talk about that particular crime to a group in Boston only this past April, and I used as a an example, there a painting by a Cornish artist my family a Cornish called John Opie, and it was stolen in America 3040, years ago, and it was recovered last year. And so these things can go missing for a very long time and still come back. And that particular painting came back in very good condition. So and again, there was a mag. Nificent Picasso that I recovered, together with a colleague I work with in in Amsterdam that had been stolen in 1990 in France, and we recovered it in where are we? 2019 in Amsterdam in near perfect condition. So these things can go missing for a very long time and still come back. So yeah, you know, we haven't written off the Gardner Museum paintings, but we love to get some indication that they're still still about is

Nick VinZant 30:33

it more common now? Is art theft more common now than it was in the past? It's

Richard Ellis 30:37

a difficult one to answer, because, you know, statistically, law enforcement have never kept specific records relating to the theft of art and antiques. So it's that's a difficult one to answer. What we do know from the statistics that have been made, for instance, in cultural heritage objects, I think the instances of crimes against cultural heritage have increased dramatically, and that's because people have they're much more able to travel than you know they were a century ago. They get around to go and see these places. The places themselves are more exposed than they were. Objects are more available. So I think, yeah, you know, with the sort of general quickening of the pace of life generally, so the increase in crimes against dark antiques have increased at the same rate in terms of the iconic works of art, this tends to go in kind of cycles, really. And since covid, you know, touch wood, the instances of art theft, of iconic work of art, have fallen since covid.

Nick VinZant 32:01

This is a little bit of a lighter one movie scene that drives you nuts. It

Richard Ellis 32:05

kind of relates to the type of scene that drives me nuts. But it's almost the reverse of it. It's a kind of acknowledgement James Bond in not Dr No, and he's just arriving at blofels underground lair. And as he walks up the steps, he sees, there's the step that the painting of the Duke of Wellington by Goya that was stolen in 1961 and when that film was made in 1961 was still missing. And he kind of pauses and looks live to say, that's where that went but there's a definite acknowledgement that, you know, it's this megalomaniac master of organized crime who was responsible for its left. Is

Nick VinZant 32:51

there any ever instances like where the movie stuff is kind of right, like where they're dodging the laser grid to get to the painting and replacing it with a replica. Like, is that stuff? Is any of that stuff even close?

Richard Ellis 33:06

Sometimes you can say things get replaced with a replica. Not so much in institutions you know, you have curatorial staff that keep a pretty close eye on their stuff. It gets looked at in terms of conservation. So it goes to the laboratory to see whether it's deteriorating or whether it's in good condition, or if anything needs to be done and by way of a restorative treatment. So, you know, things, they get recognized pretty quickly. They've been the audience instance where, you know, copies have been re used to replace the original. But it's it's more a thing of myth than fact. That's pretty much all

Nick VinZant 33:49

the questions I got. Is there anything that you think we missed, or anything like that?

Richard Ellis 33:53

Oh, not really. No. All I would say is, if anybody wants help in the return of the Isabella Stewart garden Museum. Let me know I'm still available for that one.

Nick VinZant 34:06

I want to thank Richard so much for joining us. If you want to connect with him, we have linked to him on our social media accounts. We're profoundly pointless on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube, and if you want to see some of these works of art that we talk about. The YouTube version of this interview will be live on August 8 at 12:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw and get to the pointless part of the show. Do you have an animal nemesis, like an animal that has always bothered you or caused you problems or difficulties or anything like that, yes,

John Shull 34:46

but only because I we've done it to to ourselves here at the show household, and that's the family of skunks that lives under my front porch.

Nick VinZant 34:55

You have a family of skunks. How? How long have they lived under your front. Porch.

John Shull 35:02

I mean, at least before covid. So I'll say five years.

Nick VinZant 35:06

Do you know if it's the same family, or is this like now a generational family of skunks that are just all

John Shull 35:10

living under your house? There might be great grandparents attached to this family. Now, every every winter, for the last couple of winters, you see the baby skunks and the mom skunk and yeah, we had a chance to to get rid of them, but we didn't do it. So now they're part of our family.

Nick VinZant 35:29

So my animal Nemesis would be birds, specifically Hawks. I've been attacked by hawks on three different occasions.

John Shull 35:37

I feel like you have to give a little bit more to that story than just I feel like if you get attacked by a hawk, that's a pretty serious thing.

Nick VinZant 35:44

So the first time I was attacked by a hawk, I was out playing golf, and I think that they had just had their young, and I hit the ball close to the Hawks tree, and so the hawk dive bombed me a couple of times. The second time I was attacked by a hawk, I was just walking home from the gym, and I don't know what I don't know why it attacked me, but I was also attacked by a hawk the second time. And then the third time, I was out at a beach, and again, I think I was near a tree where they had their young, and it attacked me. So I've been attacked by a hawk three times in the last 10 years. Do you

John Shull 36:21

think it just has to do with them just seeing you and saying that guy looks dive bombable? So I'm going to do it.

Nick VinZant 36:28

I have always had a depreciation but a tenuous relationship with birds. I don't think that birds seem to like me. Most animals seem to generally like me, at least most dogs or cats, but birds never seem to have liked me very much. I think birds have it out for me. There's just something about me that birds don't like.

John Shull 36:48

I don't even know where to start with that one. Ah, but

Nick VinZant 36:52

there has to be something. Because look, I polled the audience. I polled the audience, and 56% of people said that they had an animal nemesis, going through some of the comments just really quickly, flies, mosquitoes, crickets, crows, ducks, crabs, crabs, spiders. Somebody put ticks and then somebody put sheep as an animal nemesis, a sheep.

John Shull 37:20

Jesus, a sheep.

Nick VinZant 37:22

I don't know why you would the problem with a sheep would be, I mean, if you're causing problem with a sheep, it's probably your fault. I

John Shull 37:29

want to know more about the crabs. Like, are we talking about, like sand crabs?

Nick VinZant 37:32

I think they're talking about crabs that are not necessarily of the specific animal kind, more of the Saturday night fun time, regret time, times I would say

John Shull 37:44

that's a good one, though that'd be like we were doing top five animal nemesis. I feel like you'd have to put crabs on any list, just in case.

Nick VinZant 37:50

Yeah, he would have to put that because you got to cover all your bases. But I've never understood why I was attacked by birds. It just happens.

John Shull 37:58

I will say, I've only been, I've only have been made to bleed by one type of animal in my entire life, and that was a fish. So

Nick VinZant 38:10

were you fishing? Go on,

John Shull 38:15

well, no, I think I've been stung by a jellyfish too, but to actually bleed? Yeah, we were fishing actually, when we lived, when I lived in Florida, I went on a deep sea charter fishing boat, and I reeled in a really nice, I can't remember the name bonita, I think it was, and I went to go grab it by its mouth, not realizing was very much angry at me. And, you know, I was used to catching bass and walleye. I mean, you know, Midwesterner, Midwestern fish, right? And lakes, and this thing just chomped down. And I still have the the scar actually on my thumb where it bit me.

Nick VinZant 38:54

Hmm, I feel like you kind of deserve that. I feel like that doesn't count, because if you're fishing or hunting and the animal gets you, the animal gets you. The animal is just trying to protect itself, like it's not just out to

John Shull 39:06

get you, sure. I mean, I was just trying to pose with a picture that I was going to let it go. I mean, I still let it go, but I didn't get my picture. Well,

Nick VinZant 39:15

you didn't even get a picture of it biting you. That would have been a better picture, I'll be honest with you, like mid bite, if it got you right in the middle

John Shull 39:24

of it, yeah, that's, I will say the animals that creep me out the most are cats. For some reason I just don't like cats.

Nick VinZant 39:34

I don't have a I'm ambivalent about cats. I wouldn't say that. I have a problem with them. I'm suspicious of some people who have cats, I would say my problem with cats is more some of the people who have them, it's not the cat itself. Birds maybe have always kind of creeped me out a little bit. Maybe that's why they don't like me, and I've been attacked so many times by birds.

John Shull 39:55

Alright, let's, let's get these done here. Uh, Marcus, Chung, i. Yes, will brown uh, Darcy lubins. Don't hear a lot of Darcy's, but I feel like couple of Darcy's. I know they're pretty cool people, so

Nick VinZant 40:08

I only know one Darcy. Yeah, only one Darcy. My entire life. Have I ever known only one Darcy Parker?

John Shull 40:19

Well, good luck, Darcy, whatever you're doing now. Uh, Luke McKeever, Marius Hornbeck, Tosh Locky, Amelia randoza, Abby Johnson, Josh Berg, Emily orric, and we'll end these shout outs this week with Belinda McDonald, because I don't know why, but I've always liked Belinda's as well.

Nick VinZant 40:44

That's a very old school name. Man, it

Unknown Speaker 40:48

is. Man, Belinda,

Nick VinZant 40:52

okay, I can't say like I when I hear that, I'm thinking of somebody that's, you know, pushing it. That's pretty far up there in the age range, but that's what you're doing. That's what you're doing. Man, live your life.

John Shull 41:05

Alright? Man, let's see. Got some things here that I want to I want to talk to you about, okay? First one has to do with, well, I'm just going to get to it. There is a French pole vaulter. His name, Anthony amarati. If you're not familiar pole vaulting, it's where you run. You know, plant the pole, then you try to go over a bar. Well, this poor guy, who apparently was a metal favorite at the Olympics, which are ongoing, cleared the bar, but on the way down, his junk hit the bar and ruined his opportunity for a medal. So I want to get your opinion on that. I also it came out today that apparently a company offered him half a million dollars to be a porn star for them.

Nick VinZant 41:55

Well, do we know it's specifically that big, or is it one of those things that like optical illusions. Like, maybe it just looked like that in a certain light because of it. Like, has anybody actually like, have we somebody has had to have broken down the film and analyzed it? Like, do we have a size? Are we sure that he's packing heat?

John Shull 42:17

I mean, I will say this. It seems like there's been more attention drawn to male genitalia this Olympics than there have been in the past. There's been two or three stories that have come out about, you know, look at like one was a swimmer who had a little bit of something, you know, and that picture went viral. I mean, so Yeah, who knows if they're actually packing real heat, or if they're just average, but because they're on a national scale, I have no idea. I will say that if I was a pole vaulter and my junk caused me to get, you know, eliminated, that's something you you just quit right there. You just end it like you can't. You'll never do it again. You've reached the echelon of sport.

Nick VinZant 43:00

I don't think that that's a bad thing to happen, right? Like, if ever, if all the world knows that you're packing heat, that's a pretty good problem to have. Like, I don't think that you're gonna be like, Oh, I lost the gold medal, yeah, but now everybody thinks you got a huge one, so that's probably better. People are gonna forget about the fact that you have a gold medal. They're not going to forget that you might be rocking around town with some ammunition, so to speak. So I think that that's like a Pyrrhic victory, right? Like he lost the war, but he won the battle. Well, no, yeah, he may have lost the battle, but he won the war.

John Shull 43:35

I just think about in like 20 years, you know, what's a better story to tell your friends and your family while you're sitting around having beers. Yeah, I want a gold medal, or I lost a medal because my junk was too big. I mean, come on,

Nick VinZant 43:50

what are you going to say? What are you going to say? Like, Grandpa, Grandpa, how come you lost? How come you didn't get gold? Got

John Shull 43:58

a big one, got a

Nick VinZant 44:01

got a big one, and it just got in the way. That's the thing, man, I think, like, I'm not somebody who's packing heat, right? I think I'm right around average. But I think it would actually be inconvenient to be packing heat all the time, like having that big old thing in your way. I won't, I wouldn't want to, like, a huge one,

John Shull 44:21

alright? Well, I'm just gonna keep moving on there. Alright, a couple of TV things here, squid. Squid game, season two coming out around Christmas. So I don't think you're a fan of squid game. I know you know of it, though. So my question to you is, how far do you think you would make it in a, you know, do or die reality TV show where your life was on the line? Do you think you'd make it, you know, say, semifinals, finals, would you be out in the first round?

Nick VinZant 44:57

Well, I mean, it depends on, I guess, what's going on? On, I would say that it has been my experience to just give you an honest answer. I tend to stick with things a little bit longer than most people, so I think that would be an advantage, but I also don't generally push myself as far as other people. So I would make it to the semifinals or quarterfinals, I think, and that's about it.

John Shull 45:24

I I probably wouldn't make it past the first round, so I'm alright with that for

Nick VinZant 45:29

your calf muscle taking five steps. So yeah, dude, you're not even getting to the round. You're injured before you even got there. Like, is he going to make it? No, he got hurt early on. So he did

John Shull 45:39

not even sure it was five steps, to be honest with you, which makes it a little worse. Um, so now let's jump to this. Everyone's familiar with Mr. Beast, I'm sure, uh, apparently

Nick VinZant 45:52

that, go ahead, that is, that's one of those things that, all right, he's supposedly like the most famous person on the internet or the most subscribed remote watch. I've never seen a single video that any of those people have done, and I have an issue with those kind of adults who create content based around children that, to me is always kind of should be that should be monitored, and people in the powers that be should be doing more about that, because they're creating stuff that's basically like addictive for children, and nobody's supervising that whatsoever. So I have a problem with that right off the bat. But anyway,

John Shull 46:28

there's my right well, you might have a problem with this then. So apparently Amazon got behind him for his own kind of game show, similar to squid game however, you know, people don't die in it, because it's a real game show. However, apparently, after the initial round of filming, contestants were made to literally sign. I don't know if this is normal, so maybe I'm reading too much into this, but contestants were made to sign a waiver, basically saying, if you were to die, you can't hold the show or the company liable for your injuries. Um, made me think I would never trust one of these type of shows, let alone Mr. Beast, who, by the way, I don't, I wonder what his real name is. Oh, I don't wire why? Why is he Mr. Beast?

Nick VinZant 47:16

That's one of those things. At least he doesn't, but he does something right? Like, I think that he got famous for giveaways or something like that. But that's one of those things that, like, I've never seen a single one of those videos because they're aimed for children. And, like I said, I I just find that whole thing to be strange. Like, why are you creating addictive content for children? I shouldn't be doing that. I would. I don't know. And I think to me, it's like those drug commercials where they go through the list of side effects, and when they're like, your eyes are going to fall off and your skin will peel over. Like, if there's that much of a warning, then you should probably start to consider if that's something that you should be

John Shull 47:54

doing. Yeah, it's like the ozempic and Mongolia commercials with at the end they're like, you could develop ulcers, cancer, HIV, diarrhea. 35 seconds later, they literally have gone through almost every ailment known to. Man,

Nick VinZant 48:06

yeah, I think if you're signing that much of a waiver, you should probably be a little bit concerned about what you're doing.

John Shull 48:14

Iceman, it's a whole thing with me, a whole rant. But you know, I I feel like people are they want that. They want to be famous without really working for it. You know what I mean? Like, what's, what's an easy way to do that go on a television dream? Yeah, exactly. It's the, that's

Nick VinZant 48:30

the American dream, man, that's but so many people are famous for not really working for it. So, like, that's the thing. Like, a lot of people are famous for not really doing anything. So why couldn't it be you?

John Shull 48:42

Alright, this is, this is kind of creepy. This caught my eye. So in Tokyo, they're making life life like robots. However, they have started developing skin and muscle tissue in a laboratory, and now they're putting that tissue onto robots, specifically their faces, and basically giving the robot muscles and tendons and things. And it looks creepy as hell, because it looks like a actual person smiling at you, but it's a robot, if that makes any sense. This,

Nick VinZant 49:17

this, to me, is the big problem that we have as a society right now is that we finally reach the stage where we need to start asking, should we be doing this? And in all the past, we've just been asking, Can we do this? Now we need to start asking, should we do this? And the answer for a lot of these things is probably no. Like, should we design AI that's smarter than us? Probably not. Should we make robots? We can't tell if they're human beings, probably not. Like, that's just, I don't understand how that even comes about. Like, let's make a robot. Okay, that's, yeah, that's a good idea. We can make a robot. Let's make it look like a person. Well, why?

John Shull 49:56

Because I think that. I think that's it, man. I think that's, I mean, if you think of the mark. Kits that are out there for robots. How much money can be made to have lifelike robots for any kind of circumstance? I know all you sickos out there, your minds are going to a place.

Nick VinZant 50:12

There's only one reason you would make a robot with lifelike skin like there's only one reason you're trying to do that, not so they can pass off as human, not so they can be your friend. There's only one reason you're trying to design a hue a robot that seems like a human, and that's to have sex with it. It's the only reason that you're doing that.

John Shull 50:30

Yeah, I don't I'm not man. I hope what that I I hope I never have to entertain that idea ever. I hope I get the bypass that part of my life. But

Nick VinZant 50:42

what could be any other possible advantage of having a robot with human like skin and features, like, what's? What's the possible reason other than that so that it does,

John Shull 50:56

because it might what? Maybe it's like a blending in type, type thought, where people, yeah, maybe people will be more, well, welcoming of AI life, like AI technology, if it looks like a human,

Nick VinZant 51:12

I would think the exact opposite, that if you made something that was an AI type, robotic human, and then you made it look like us, oh, I'd have a big problem with that. That's the uncanny valley, which I never that's one of those things. I don't actually know what it means. I just hear that. I just know that that's a word. Well,

John Shull 51:29

I also read down in the article that they've only just started to do it with the face. So, I mean, they got a long way to go before they cover a entire, you know, robot body and fabricated human tissue and skin. So they're

Nick VinZant 51:45

going to start with the face, and then they're going to go downstairs, because that's what that robot is for. Well, that's what you're going to

John Shull 51:53

do. Anthony almoradi from from France, can can help them out. I

Nick VinZant 51:58

don't know who's Anthony almarani.

John Shull 52:01

He's the French pole vaulter with the big package. Oh, Jesus. All right,

Nick VinZant 52:08

yes, if you but if you listen, if you were going to design a robot, Ding Dang. Would you make it one size, or would you make it like, it like adjustable?

John Shull 52:17

Well, I think, I think I would make sizes, and then people would have to, like, continually buy the sizes, and I would make more money.

Nick VinZant 52:25

Oh, you would have, like, a subscription service, like you get the three incher included, but then you can size up. You can buy different sizes if you want to. That's how you make money. Oh, yeah, could you imagine that if one day you got to be out there changing the ding dang on your profile,

Speaker 1 52:44

John, go out there and get the seven, the six was too not enough. You know,

Nick VinZant 52:50

screw it on a robot. No, I,

John Shull 52:54

I hope I never lived to see that day that would be. That would be pretty bad. Okay, you know what time it is. Oh,

Nick VinZant 53:03

this is our very first live episode where they've done can where we have done candle of the month. So wait. How do I do it, baby? It's time the outlaw candle connoisseur Rides Again. Candle of the month

John Shull 53:27

got a good one here too. By the way, we're just going to jump, just jump into it. So it's by Diamond Candles. So head over to Diamond candles.com and the candle of the month this month is everyone's favorite delicacy, cinnamon roll.

Unknown Speaker 53:45

Oh,

Nick VinZant 53:47

that's a bold choice, though, for an late summer, early fall candle, cinnamon roll feels, I know, like an October, November candle, to be honest with you,

John Shull 53:59

I know, and I, once again, I it was one that struck me, because you burn it in the morning, and then it lingers throughout the night, throughout the day, throughout the night, and it's just fantastic, and it's not overbearing. I don't know a lot about Diamond Candles. My first diamond candle, and it was actually recommended to me by a friend of mine who went overseas, who happen to to pick one up. I don't know how they got overseas. I don't think they're an overseas company, but regardless, and they're like, you should check em up. Went on the website. They had a deal going on. It's a one wick, one wick candle, but it lasts, you know, 15 to 25 hours, and you'll be paying, you know, 15 to 30 bucks. And they have all they have all kinds of scents, but cinnamon roll is the one I went with, because who doesn't love a cinnamon roll on any kind of day, whether it's hot, cold, anything,

Nick VinZant 54:53

doesn't that just make you hungry all the time, though, I wouldn't want a food based candle because I would just be hungry all the time.

John Shull 54:59

Well, you know, when you got, when you when you got a lot of lot of meat there to feed, you know what I mean,

Nick VinZant 55:10

okay, does it smell like? How much does it smell like a cinnamon roll? 1,000%

John Shull 55:16

it is. It is, arguably, you know, this will not be the first diamond candle that I buy, I can tell you that this and once again, they don't, you know, I feel like, because we're doing this live now, I need to put the disclaimer out there that, like, we don't make any money or get anything from these companies. But, yeah, I will be going back for sure, for for some more.

Nick VinZant 55:37

Wow, did you bring the candle to show it off, like you said you were going going to

John Shull 55:42

no and I effed up. And I really kind of a tragic story. I messed up, but starting in August or starting in September, alright,

Nick VinZant 55:52

so target date for that is probably March 2025, are you ready for our top five?

John Shull 56:01

I am. It's going to sound Yes, yes, let's just get into it.

Nick VinZant 56:05

Alright, so our top five is top five doors. We'll see how this goes. What's your number five? What's your fifth favorite door?

John Shull 56:16

So my fifth favorite door on the list, and listen, I have a lot of them. This whole thing is just full of of of things, a lot of doors, right? Yeah, there's a lot of doors. Uh, so my number five, I went with a doggy door.

Nick VinZant 56:33

I thought about doggie door, didn't put it on my list, but I can understand doggie door very convenient. Is that the reason you put it on there conveniency,

John Shull 56:41

you know, in the summer, you can just, you know, if you have a dog that can fit through it, just open the door, and they come and go and they want, yeah, it's just a convenience. It's, it's probably one of the better invented ideas for a door, maybe ever.

Nick VinZant 56:58

My number five is a trap door. I've always thought it was so cool to have like, a trap door. I've always wanted a house with a trap door in there. Think about like you could have so much fun with that. The only reason I couldn't put it higher is it's not like you can find a lot of places with trap doors.

John Shull 57:17

Yeah, I feel like trap doors now are only in theater. I don't think you will find any house made, you know, after 1985 that has a trap door in it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Yeah, I don't

Nick VinZant 57:31

think they're making a lot of houses the trap doors anymore. Have you ever been in a house with like,

John Shull 57:37

a secret room twice, twice, yeah, and one was, is a mansion and not too far from where, where I live here in Michigan, and like the owner, built secret hallways and doors just so he could scare his guess.

Nick VinZant 57:54

Okay, what's your number four?

John Shull 57:55

Uh, my number four is, I went with a revolving door because those are the only doors where I actually have fun and I enjoy going through them.

Nick VinZant 58:06

I think a revolving door should have been higher on your list. I have revolving door. I think it's a great door. It's fun. It's the funnest door, right? It's the funnest door.

John Shull 58:17

It's by far the most fun, and it's probably the only door where I'll just keep going around and around, if you just let me, because it's just fun. It's just makes you feel like a child again. Do you do the thing where you try to trap somebody? Yeah, of course, my children now, but yeah,

Nick VinZant 58:34

it is the funnest door. It is the funnest door. Uh, miner four is a screen door because it just reminds you of simpler times, like when I think of a screen door, I think of kind of relaxing, letting the outside inside, to taking it easy. Might be a little bit hot, but I think it's summertime in the screen door.

John Shull 58:55

I like screen door. I I'm fancy and I have the screen door that can be a glass door or a screen door.

Unknown Speaker 59:02

So wait a minute, what

John Shull 59:06

it's just? I don't I it's just, I don't even know how to describe it, but I have the screen I can just pull down the glass pane, and when I pull it down, this a screen comes up.

Nick VinZant 59:17

Wait, so the door is both glass and a screen or is it a screen door behind a glass door? Or is it a screen door combined with a glass door?

John Shull 59:26

It's a, yeah, it's a screen slash glass door all in one.

Nick VinZant 59:33

I don't even understand. I have to look this up. I don't even honestly understand how this is possible.

John Shull 59:37

Well, I'm not gonna have a screen it to make any sense, that's for sure.

Nick VinZant 59:43

Oh, okay, yeah, the way that you made it sound, at least to me, was like it was some fancy thing, like you got this thing from the future, and nobody else has ever heard of it when you built your basement. Listen,

John Shull 59:56

I don't have any money. I'm not buying anything. Okay, that is tipping any scales, alright at all. So

Nick VinZant 1:00:04

is it my number three, or is it your number four? No,

John Shull 1:00:07

it's my number it's my number three. Oh, okay, okay, yeah, because I went doggy door, revolving door, and my number three probably the only door on the list that you could say is of any taste, and that's a French door.

Nick VinZant 1:00:24

Oh, yeah, that's the fanciest door. Snobs

John Shull 1:00:27

I know. Well, don't worry, it goes way down from here, so don't worry. Okay,

Nick VinZant 1:00:32

my number three is saloon doors, like you see in westerns. Oh, I

John Shull 1:00:39

knew it. I there is no way

Nick VinZant 1:00:41

you can go through that door without thinking of your imagining yourself in a western movie.

John Shull 1:00:45

I mean, I put that on on my honorable mention just because I think it's kind of tacky and hokey. But I get it. I get

Nick VinZant 1:00:54

all, okay, sorry, Mr. Fancy Pants that it doesn't have glass and a screen that in the old west, they just had to make do with what they had. I also love

John Shull 1:01:01

how anyone that knows anything about doors is going to be like, French doors aren't even that fancy.

Nick VinZant 1:01:06

I know this is probably the fanciest doors that I can think of. Let me make sure I'm even like, I think Dutch. I

John Shull 1:01:13

think Dutch doors are are nicer. Those big wooden ones are probably nicer. Like, you know, oh,

Nick VinZant 1:01:20

like the big oak doors. Oh, French doors are pretty nice. That's fancy. Yeah, I automatically assume anything that's French is just fancier than us. That's my automatic default assumption. Is it my number two or your number two?

John Shull 1:01:38

Uh, it's my number two. Now, okay, which this is tough for me, but I'm putting a garage door as my number two. I

Nick VinZant 1:01:48

had garage door on the list. I just didn't put it. But I think garage door should be on the list. I agree with you,

John Shull 1:01:53

but only if you have it that you know, you press the button and it goes up and down, not one that you have to manually do. Did

Nick VinZant 1:02:00

you ever have the kind of garage door where you had to, like, from the inside, you hit it, and then you got to run, but you got to go under the door, but jump over the laser sensor. So you got to do that, like jump duck thing to get out.

John Shull 1:02:14

No, I just pressed a button and my garage door shuts. I don't have to jump over the sensor button or the sensor,

Nick VinZant 1:02:22

not even as a kid.

John Shull 1:02:24

Nick and for all of you out there wondering this, jumping wasn't really one of the things I did well,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:33

so no, see that. I know, man,

Nick VinZant 1:02:36

you just lived a privileged life, privileged life with your non with your friend, yeah, doors and your doggy doors. I don't have any of that kind of stuff back. If we didn't even have doors, it's a window like a man.

John Shull 1:02:50

So number one, just an air door.

Nick VinZant 1:02:53

My number two is revolving door. I think you had it a little bit too low on the list. I think a revolving door is a great door.

John Shull 1:03:00

Well, after what, I think's been a pretty fantastic list, my number one is the most boring, but it's by far my favorite kind of door, and that is just a sliding door.

Nick VinZant 1:03:11

Oh, just a regular sliding door,

John Shull 1:03:13

yeah, just, you know, just a regular sliding door.

Nick VinZant 1:03:17

Think that's a pretty big mistake on your part. Number one to me, is automatic doors. The only doors you don't have to do anything with. They open for you make you feel like a king. You can pretend like you have the force. Automatic Door is the best door, man,

John Shull 1:03:32

yeah, I don't disagree with you, but I nah, I they're not. Nah. Did

Nick VinZant 1:03:38

you forget about them and now you don't want to just admit it? Okay, absolutely. The only other ones that I had no that's pretty much covers all of them I had sliding on there. I would have put sliding, but it's too basic, man, I don't know what you even call a regular door. That's

Unknown Speaker 1:03:54

a consistent door.

John Shull 1:03:55

I mean, I have a steel door, a wood door, glass paneled

Nick VinZant 1:04:00

door, glass door is pretty fun. Barn

John Shull 1:04:04

Door, Dutch door, pocket door, we're on my honorable mention.

Nick VinZant 1:04:09

Let me see if there's any other constant doors. There's 42 different kinds of doors. How is that even possible? Oh, my God. Like, how do we have so many different kinds of everything? Does that get nauseating to you? Or do you like it? Do you like having a lot of different options? Or does it make you sick?

John Shull 1:04:30

I mean, I like having options, but at the same point, I'm a hypocrite, because I like having options, but then I can't decide what I want.

Nick VinZant 1:04:39

I like having options, but I can never find the exact thing that I want. So I like having a lot of options, because I want to get what I want, but all of the options are generally not the thing that I want. That's what bothers me about

John Shull 1:04:53

it. And I'm apparently the Bougie one here.

Nick VinZant 1:04:57

I am a simple man. I like the simplest look. Look what I. Yeah, just a plain gray t shirt, not out there dressed up with your fancy cinnamon roll candles like you are,

John Shull 1:05:06

your Diamond candles.com. Check them out. Oh, okay, that's

Nick VinZant 1:05:10

gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of profoundly pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are some of the best doors. I really think John just straight up forgot about automatic door because I don't know how that's not number one. But as we mentioned in the pointless section, we have launched a Patreon page. We'd really appreciate any support you can give us. So a link to that page is down in the episode Description.