NFL Scout Dan Hatman
As an NFL Scout and Director of the Scouting Academy, Dan Hatman’s job is to predict the future. He’s got to sift through hours of game tape and talk to everyone from coaches to cafeteria cooks to find out which football players are hope and which are hype. We talk the NFL Draft, why scouts get it wrong and the best way to tell if a player is going to be good. Then, it’s commas and periods vs. exclamation points and parenthesis and we countdown the Top 5 Types of Punctuation.
Dan Hatman: 01:22
Pointless: 40:47
Top 5: 1:00:41
Interview with NFL Scout and Scouting Academy Director Dan Hatman
Nick VinZant 0:00
Hi welcome to Profoundly Pointless, my name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode scouting, and punctuation you're
Dan Hatman 0:20
trying to predict and other human beings future. Because ultimately, we don't care about what they've done, we care about what they're going to do. Some places, it's going to be the manager of the local watering hole, who can tell you if they came in on practice nights. And we're doing stupid things and treating the staff poorly. And so that team really liked the player. And so they invested in I think, was like a three person security detail. So somebody was with him 24 hours a day, like they never left his side, I want
Nick VinZant 0:52
to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it, it really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So I want to get right to our first guest, because his job is to predict the future. This is NFL scout and director of the scouting Academy, Dan Hackman. So starting with the basics, like what is this Scout do so
Dan Hatman 1:27
there's two tracks inside of the category NFL scout. So the track that most people think of is what we typically call a college area scout. So you are the person out on the road, managing yourself going from school to school, looking at draft eligible prospects. So you're mapping out your calendar, usually out 11 to 14 days at a time go home for two or three. And you are you're responsible for certain states in a geographic geographical region. So you might be the SE scout. So you've got to hit all the schools in Georgia and all the schools in Florida. The other track is called a pro scout. So we were responsible for all the people that were no longer college eligible. So we would watch every player currently playing in the NFL every year, part of it was for advanced scouting opponents, right preparing our coaching staff for what they should expect to see that get next week. Part of it was for things like free agency, part of it was for trades, players that get cut that you may want to claim or sign roster management in season, whatever players you start the season with week one, you're not going to have all those healthy bodies by the end of the year. So you're going to continue to have people in the pipeline. And that was our job, we were day to day roster management, putting out fires trying to keep enough healthy players in the locker room. So Coach could practice
Nick VinZant 2:43
what usually separates somebody from doing one versus doing the other.
Dan Hatman 2:47
I think people over time, kind of fall into a specialty. But early on, you start in what they typically call a scouting assistant, it's a kind of a glorified intern position could be a one or a two year deal, depending on the team. And then after that, if you've been doing well, and they're interested in retaining you full time, it's really whatever opens up pro happens to be a faster track to director because there's less people in that chain of command. Whereas college is about twice the size.
Nick VinZant 3:14
Is this a job like most people kind of think of a job? Yeah,
Dan Hatman 3:18
there's no nine to five to it. People in it typically think of it as a lifestyle more than a job. People that come from military background say the season kind of feels like being on tour in terms of being away from your family. And that time during the season from when training camp starts in July, through whenever your season ends, you're kind of in it. And those hours are long and exhausting. And then it moves a little more to a nine to five, when you get towards the springtime in the summer, certainly, to when
Nick VinZant 3:51
we talk about scouting like it's one of those things like okay, I get it. But I don't actually know what you're doing. What are you looking for? I guess,
Dan Hatman 4:00
you're trying to predict another human beings future. Because ultimately, we don't care about what they've done. We care about what they're going to do. So you are watching players play for another team. So we're coming up on the NFL Draft, right, and all these names are being tossed around. These young men have played for one to three universities over the last handful of years. We don't really care how well he plays for LSU. We care about whether or not that means he's going to play well for the New England Patriots. And so you're watching a human being playing this game for another organization. And you have to try to isolate their performance in the context of all the other moving pieces around them and figure out how much of their performance is created on their own. How much of it carries over to us what kind of gaps are there that we have to fill? And who is this human being? is from a character standpoint, more so than just an athlete? And how does that carry into our organization? All of that, so that we can say, this person coming in here will perform at this level within this period of time, and is worth this amount of resources, whether that be draft picks or money from a contract standpoint. So it's a big prognostication game, we're trying to have a crystal ball and predict the future.
Nick VinZant 5:17
I don't know very much about football or sports in general, necessarily, but to kind of like, crystallize This, in my mind. It sounds like it would be really difficult to tell like, okay, running back. Is he good? Because he's a good running back? Or is he good? Because the coach, or is he good? Because he's got a really good offensive lineman, is that really hard to figure out? Like, okay, they're good, but why are they good? And would they be good for us? If we don't have that thing that they have now? Absolutely. I
Dan Hatman 5:45
gotta give a shout out to one of my college professors, Todd cross at University of Massachusetts, he had us read this article from a sociologist, and the sociology was studying swimmers. And in there, there's just this line that I've never been able to let go of. And it was how did the plant grow before the flower bloomed? And so whenever we watch the player, right, so you talk about that running back? who's performing? That's the flower in bloom, right? It's out there, we can all see it's on display. The question is, what happened before? We got to watch it bloom? So is this somebody that came up in a cultivated garden with fertilizer and water and plenty of sunlight? proper temperatures? Or is this like something coming up in the cracks of a sidewalk? Who's been mistreated, but still performing? So we have to then go in and say, Okay, this guy performed? Well? Did they perform on top of what was created for them? Right? Is there a surplus value that they create? Or are they only getting what's done for them, and that would change how much we value the player, it could still be a competent player either way, but one guy is probably worth more than other because he adds value on top of what's being created by the structure the teammates, as opposed to only getting what's created by the structure the teammates. If
Nick VinZant 6:59
you had to put a percentage on it, what percent of people would you say they would be good no matter where they go? I
Dan Hatman 7:07
think the bulk are situationally dependent. That could be based on scheme that can be based on teammates, the type of coaching that they'll respond to places that will play to their strengths. Very few, I'd say probably the 10 to 15% would be team agnostic, where they could truly go anywhere, because their athletic profile, their mental aptitude, profile, their character, and how they you know, how they approach things profile, their health profile, all of its, you know, completely agnostic to the situation around them. It's a very small percentage, most guys have pluses and minuses. And then you have to find the right home to manage those pluses and minuses.
Nick VinZant 7:50
That 10 to 15%. Is that really obvious? Like, oh, yeah, that guy?
Dan Hatman 7:55
Yeah, I think there's a strong number within that, that's very obvious, like the players that are going to be the top of the draft. I mean, watch three clips of them on YouTube and go out, that's pretty special, I can see the unique gifts, you know, that person brings to the table. There are some guys later on where maybe the athletic traits aren't as obvious, but their anticipation, their instincts, you know, how they approach things in terms of their taking care of their bodies, how they approach learning, their own scheme, their opponents, what have you, where all of those things would pan out. And again, they may not be, you know, the top award, the All Pro in the league, but they're gonna be a very good player, someone that you can win with for years, pretty much anywhere they're gonna find, you know, a 4567 year career. Again, they may not be a household name by the end of it, but I think they'll have sticking power. But
Nick VinZant 8:50
when you scout somebody, like, are you just looking at their performance on the field? Or is there more to it than that?
Dan Hatman 8:56
Everything? I mean, everything you can get your hands on. I tell people imagine you are in charge of whatever organization you're currently in. Right? You have to staff every single role. What would you want to know about the people, right, you'd want to know about how they approach their work, and how well they can get that done, how quickly they can get that done? How much they still have to learn about that job. You'd care about how they're going to treat other people, how they're going to treat the chain of command, how they're going to treat subordinates, right, how they're going to treat customers. I mean, we don't tend to get into like sleep patterns of employees like you would with an NFL Scout, like we're going to care about how he takes care of his body outside of it, because that's really the that's the tool that they're using. But like if you are working in a machinist shop, you'd care about how that person takes care of their tools, right, because their tools are their livelihood. Well, in this case, the bodies, the livelihoods, we're going to care about how they take care of their body, but we care about how they're going to take care of their mind, right, how they're going to approach things. You try to gather everything you can The challenge is determining the weight. Right? The gathering of it is something I think a lot of people can do. Like, what would I want to know about a person, I want to talk to people around them, I'll talk to their former coaches, their former teammates, and I want to talk to their parents and I want to talk to their high school English teacher, right? They try to get a sense of who they are. And we have that ability in our industry. But then how much do you weigh it? Right? If those sources are certainly give you different stories? Which source do you rely on, which sources telling you what they want you to know versus which sources telling you what you need to know, the kids parents have a vested interest in his success. So it was college coaches, whose resume is going to be built in part on how well these players are selected? In something like the draft whose like
Nick VinZant 10:43
opinion, would you generally weigh the most? Like, when you talk to people who would you kind of like, I'm probably going to get a good assessment from this person.
Dan Hatman 10:52
I don't think it's going to be a title in every building, alright, some buildings, it's the administrative assistant. And that, you know, man, or woman's been there for 1015 20 years, and they've seen all the comers and goers, right, and they've kind of they're not attached to one coach or the other, they're attached the organization. And so they'll tell you, like, That guy was not good in this building, he treated people poorly, you might be a good player, but he was, he was bad to us. Some places, it's the equipment manager, right? Some places, it's going to be the academic liaison, some places, it's going to be a position coach, some places, it's gonna be the manager of the local watering hole, who can tell you if they came in on practice nights, and we're doing stupid things and treating the staff poorly, or things of that nature, like, you're gonna go anywhere, and you're gonna find and unfortunately, it's not going to be like the first time you go to a city to investigate a play, you're probably not going to get the perfect glimpse into it, then. But as you go back to the cities year after year, and you talk to these people, year after year, you build those relationships, you'll start to figure out the people that shoot you straight. And those that just kind of run the company line. Do
Nick VinZant 12:07
the players know that scouts are going to be in there talking to like the assistant equipment manager, or like the bouncer at the bar or the college bar? Like do the players know that scouts are going to do that and kind of
Dan Hatman 12:18
most college programs will tell their players like someone's always watching. As
Nick VinZant 12:24
we're leading up to the draft, what is it like for scouts right now,
Dan Hatman 12:29
this is actually slowing down just a little bit, because the information gathering process on the vast majority of prospects is complete. Right now, if you're still gathering information, it's usually like your security team is doing full background checks and looking for arrests and looking for outstanding warrants or any of that kind of stuff, they might be bringing that in your medical teams doing some final checks on players who maybe had late season injuries, and hope get trying to get them to your city so your doctors can take a look at them. But for the scouts, we've kind of put the hay in the barn, so to speak. And the last set of meetings will be wrapping up here shortly where you've got the whole staff together and had conversations about each prospect and decided where they're going to sit on the board, you've talked strategy about how you would like to see the draft go and how you think the draft will go. And then like said, you kind of take a breath, and then get ready for the week of because then for the decision makers, it all fires up again, right, and you can start trading picks and moving around the draft and it actually unfolds, right. So you move from the prognostication of what you think might happen to the reality of what actually happens. I can think of one a few years back, the night of the draft, somebody released a video of a top prospect, wearing like a gas mask, Bong. And so this player was projected top five and all of a sudden, the top five teams are like, we don't have any information on this. We don't know what this is. We don't know if this is an issue like this is going to be an arrest issue. So like, he dropped and all of a sudden he's down in the teens where no one was expecting. And so now it seems that we're picking 10 to 15, who thoughts players along since going to be gone are going What do we want? Do we want to take this risk and so there's things that can happen again, up to the the minutes and the seconds that you're on the clock and you have a certain amount of time to make your selection. That kick and change and so you're trying to stay on your toes and gather every relevant piece you can.
Nick VinZant 14:29
How much is kind of the scout listen to in the meetings are people like okay, the scout says this. That is the word of whoever Right? Like, all right, well go in there, or is the scout kind of like, okay,
Dan Hatman 14:42
it has evolved when the departments were smaller, and tape was physical, you know, so when scanning first came around, it was still 35 millimeter reels of tape like scouts would carry their projector from school to school. Finally, we're in a digital age. So the challenge there the chip challenge before were that your scout, maybe the only person who saw that game at a given time in the calendar year because he was the only person who could get to the school and physically see it. And so their, their voice was huge at that time. Now with the film being digital, your general manager could watch that film an hour after the game ends. And it has lessened some of the impact that the scouts are going to have on the early prospects. Like, you know, these young men who are going to be taken in the first 30 to 50 picks, they've probably had 810 12 Different people evaluate them in the process, and submit a grade and a report and the whole nine yards. And so at that point, the scouts voice is not going to be above their boss and their boss's boss and their boss's boss and the owner who might have looked at him as well, as you move into the later stages of the draft, and certainly into the period after the draft, which is called undrafted free agency. Now, the scout carries a huge amount of weight because they may they be the actual only eyes on that player are one of only two or three people who have seen that player. And so now they get to be more vocal. So the scouts really take the victory laps. On the third day day three of the draft success stories there, the scout usually takes and gets a lot of credit for whereas the first night of the draft, again, there's been so many people in that process, the area Scout may not get credit for that success.
Nick VinZant 16:30
Or there's still times though, where you would say that some a scout really kind of finds the diamond in the rough that like nobody saw this person come in. And this scout was the only one that saw them?
Dan Hatman 16:40
Absolutely. Usually, it's getting to a prospect early enough that your organization can build conviction. Because if you don't find the player until December or January, a big bulk of the work has been done, a big bulk of the board isn't been set, but it has been tiered. And so a new player coming on may not move to the top of the stack kind of gets buried in the middle, versus if that player is identified a little earlier. And you can get more and more people involved in the process earlier on, that player can have some staying power towards the top. So like there was an article that came out recently of a scout for the Kansas City Chiefs, who works the West Coast. And he identified a defensive back at the University of Washington that he really liked, and stood on the table forum early and said I really liked this player. And so that got more and more powerful people to watch that player earlier on in the process. And the organization built a lot of conviction that player that stayed throughout the process, he ended up being their first round pick and an all pro player for him. And they still credit that scout for the early work, right? Overall, the organization made the selection, but he was the one standing strong early saying we really have to pay attention. Like we can't just let this player kind of casually go through the process and pick up on him later like this is someone want to dig in and now they really think they're special.
Nick VinZant 18:07
Was that that Sneed guy? Or was that somebody else? Oh,
Dan Hatman 18:11
Trent McDuffie was his name Sneads teammates?
Nick VinZant 18:14
Um, are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions?
Dan Hatman 18:17
Let's go.
Nick VinZant 18:18
Why do people get it wrong? Like why did the scouts get it wrong?
Dan Hatman 18:23
It's usually not the athletic ability, right? We can measure those things we can tell you, he's six foot two, we can tell you he's got nine and five eighths inch hands, we can tell you, he can run the short shuttle in 4.2 seconds. So those things are more objective. And we can tell you how they've produced right what they've accomplished. What's harder is the peace of taking them to the next world. Going from college to professional is a world jump. And one of my mentors, a guy named Jerry Angelo. He has this line he likes to use, there are athletes playing professional football. And then there are professional football players. And so an athlete playing professional football may make it for a few years. Right and they'll have kind of that flash in the pan that two three year run where everybody knows her name, and all of a sudden, no one hears about him anymore. And then there are the JJ Watts and Larry Fitzgerald's and Tom Brady's who we know for 1015 20 years, who are professional football players, where they dedicate themselves to this craft. They put tools in their belt, they take care of themselves and distinguishing between those two camps is challenging and human beings are variable, right? We're not static creatures. So I've seen examples of players who are kicked off their college team because of bad behavior and college programs who are particularly tolerant of bad behavior. I've seen players get kicked off their college team, and then be all pro performers who have 1012 year careers because As the light kind of clicks, they go, You know what I gotta get out of this childish life that I've been living, and I gotta get serious about this. And then I've seen people who are serious college players, all of a sudden have a bank account full of money in fun cities, and kind of slide off the path, right. And all of a sudden, they're more occupied with the glitz and the glamour than they are the profession. And they can figure it out for a few years. But then things catch up to him. And they don't make it. So trying to assess how this human being is going to be three, four or five years down the road, when all we know is what they've done in the last three, four or five years old. By the way, these are ages 1920 2122. I mean, how many of us were our best selves at 22 years old? And how much of that predict how we acted at 2728? Right, trying to figure that out is not something I think the human race has figured out, let alone this particular profession.
Nick VinZant 20:55
But can you see signs of that coming? In the sense that like, look, this guy is not doing so he's making bad decisions. But the foundation is there? Can you kind of see that in people? Or is that like, No, you can't see that at all,
Dan Hatman 21:10
I think you can see it in probably the majority of the prospects like there's the stable ones, like what they showed you before is what they show you after whether that be good or bad, then you can see those where you can see the exact situations that cause them to fail so far, you know, situations on the homefront, lack of resources, death of people close to them, right, all those things that can really kind of throw you off kilter, and you're in your life for a short period of time. And you can say, okay, understanding why they failed, we'll build systems to help them not do that, like one team, there was a young man, just immature, not a bad human being just really immature, throughout his college time. And you just knew he was going to be out at nighttime establishments, every night of the week, and a lot of times making stupid decisions. And so that team really liked the player. And so they invested in I think, was like a three person security detail. So somebody was with him 24 hours a day, like, they never left his side. And so they had a, a employee of the organization with this person, 24 hours a day for like the first two or three years of their career, if I remember correctly, to help ensure that they didn't make some of those decisions, like we know what causes you to fail, let's build some infrastructure to help you not feel like those things are available to these owners who have very deep wallets, that can do those kinds of things, if they want to buy into that risk. And so I think sometimes there's high risk profiles and low risk profiles, that does a low risk profile has been a good player, it just might mean a good person. And so you have to figure out what kind of risk are you willing to take on in your organization? can you tolerate what can you manage? And what should you stay away from?
Nick VinZant 22:57
That player that you were talking about, though? That's got to be a really good player, though, right?
Dan Hatman 23:01
He was a first rounder. Yeah, yeah, that's not
Nick VinZant 23:03
like the fifth round guys not naming.
Dan Hatman 23:06
That's wrong guy. He gets a cup of coffee. And if he screws up, we're gonna bounce them out of here and bring the next one in
Nick VinZant 23:11
hardest position to scout easiest position to scout quarterbacks
Dan Hatman 23:15
the hardest. If this profession had figured out how to evaluate quarterbacks, if anybody at home watching it, if any statistical analyst if any mechanics guru throwing coach had figured this out where they could predict quarterback play, owners would throw them more money than they would know what to do if they have a private island somewhere. And that doesn't exist. That hasn't happened. So nobody has figured out how to evaluate quarterbacks other than maybe Andy Reid, I will give Andy credit. I do think he's got a better beat on it than most. So it's absolutely the toughest. I've seen seasoned evaluators like the New York Jets a couple years ago. You know, I've got a ton of respect for the general manager, they had the second overall pick, they took a quarterback, it has failed spectacularly. They are on to the next and trying to figure it out on the fly. He said many other positions on the roster, he did not do well with that particular selection. And it will haunt you, because it's an incredibly important one to the overall so quarterbacks absolutely the hardest. I think running back is probably the easiest, because the things that we ask a running back to do in Pop Warner, Little League football, are very comparable to what we're going to ask them to do at the highest level like we run the same place. Throughout that it's not like the running game magically change with the passing game does but the running game has a lot of similarities throughout the level. So they'll do things throughout their time, especially in college. When we studied in the most they'll do a lot of things in college it will see them do one to one apples to apples at the next level. So it's easier to project that I think the athletic traits are easier to project. I think the ability to discern how they're gonna deal with blocking and stuff like that all maps out a little easier. So I've put running back up
Nick VinZant 25:04
there. Why is quarterbacks so hard?
Dan Hatman 25:07
The ability to, in your head, understand what it is you have around you, your own roster strengths and weaknesses, to understand the two, if not three play calls that might have been given to you in the huddle. That time walking up to the line of scrimmage to look out at all of this and make a decision for which one of those plays makes the most sense to stay with the play you're in and communicate that or to change the player in and communicate that simultaneously making other subtle adjustments to protections or receiver alignments or routes or what have you. And then after the ball is snapped in somewhere in the neighborhood between two and three seconds to look at the picture that defense presents, which then changes and compare that to what you're expecting your players to do. And then to be able to discern, does your player do the thing you expected him to do? Does the defense do what you expected them to do? Then everybody pick up the people who are most likely to attack you. While these very large human beings want to come pummel you into the ground. And then to physically deliver an accurate pass to somebody in that time. It's just unbelievably challenging the mental. The mental gymnastics, often needed to manage that position to have the, the ego to lead another group of people into that and to believe in yourself, even when the results may not be there yet, to put in the work at all hours of the day, to take the beating to stand there in the face of pressure to again, just understand what you're supposed to do and what they're trying to do and mash all that together. It's just incredibly difficult. And then the physical part, right, they actually accurately throwing a football into these challenging spots in the field, it's just there's so many parts easier
Nick VinZant 27:07
to scout a big school or a little school.
Dan Hatman 27:13
I think the big schools will give you some more apples to apples. And you'll see a player in a more finished state. Because they typically have a full with the training tables, basically just a food, access to good quality food and nutrition. So mean, there are programs that you might be getting some sort of soggy sandwich at the end of practice, and that's the best that they can offer you. Right, and most players are hitting McDonald's on the way home for food. And then there's the places the biggest schools where you're going to a specialized cafeteria just for the athletes that have all these nutritious options well prepared with the customized shake with whatever nutrients that the they've taken out of some tests that they've done on you of what you're lacking. Places to have the full strength and development programs, people that are taking care of their bodies. So you'll see a player closer to their ceiling. In those situations. I think you can find competent coaching and either side of that big schools and small schools can you can have good coaching, I think the quality of the teammates is obviously going to be higher. So if other people around you are doing their job, well, it gives you a better opportunity to do your job, well then when other people are failing at their jobs, you're trying to pick up the slack. On the flip side, being in a small school playing against players that most likely aren't going to play at the next level, give the best opportunity to stand out, right, you're not going to look like you belong. You should look above that the when you watch a small school player, the rule of thumb is when you should stand out on three or four plays. And if I'm watching you you're not standing out against that level of competition on a consistent basis. Why should I expect you to move up to the biggest stage and then stand up to those people
Nick VinZant 28:57
and perform Biggest Myths of your career.
Dan Hatman 29:00
I valued Derrick Henry incorrectly. So there's a it's all on record. It's all out in the internet, where I had looked at the young man and he played behind this amazing offensive line. And he's a freight train. He's an absolute freight train. But subtle lateral movements are not his strong suit, and still are his strong suit. But he has been able to carve out those things that he does well. And the teams have been able to carve out those things. And so kudos to him. And so I allowed my own bias on the running back position. And so ultimately, all the things that I put into the equation, I ended up putting him more in the mid rounds. And he's obviously better than that in terms of his NFL performance. And so I would have missed that. Like if I had been running the show the value that I put on him in the middle rounds. He wouldn't be there. He was a second round player and he's performed as such. And so I missed on that. But
Nick VinZant 30:00
ever does every Scout have a story like that? Oh, yeah,
Dan Hatman 30:03
absolutely. I mean, there's, you're talking about we talked about gathering all those pieces, right? And deciding what to place value on, and how to build that final equation. Right? It's not just saying I have all the pieces of the profile, it says, What does that profile worth? What does it all add up to? What is it all going to mean? And we all have places where we've let the wrong thing. weigh too heavily on it. You know, there's many people out there that talk about they let Russell Wilson's height, really sabotage their grades. When you looked at his leadership and his accuracy and all the other things he did in college, they were at the top of the charts. But he was in the lowest possible percentile for height. And while that may not be the 10th, most important thing to the position, he's an outlier, right. And people were afraid to bet on the outlier. One of my favorite stories is a general manager, still general manager for a club. He grew up in a city, not where he's currently working. So he would go home every year to see his folks. He'd go to the local college. And so he went to do his yearly visit. And he fell for this player, loved him, gave him a second round grade, or whatever it was, he comes back for draft meetings, and his area scout is college director, all of his lieutenants had looked at the same player, and they were like, mid to late. And he's got the highest grade on the board. So they're at the meetings. And he's looking at all these grades, and he's the high man on the grading sheet. Let's put on the film. Let's figure this out. Now, a lot of general managers because they don't want to be wrong, they'll start to strong arm everybody, right? I'm going to bring everybody's grades up to mind because I see him correctly. And you all must be wrong. So they're watching the player and they're watching the player. And he keeps going to different games, hey, go to this game, go to that game, trying to find things. And finally after I think it's the story goes like 3040 plays, because turn it off. I was just I don't know, if I didn't buy a cup of coffee, or if I was in a bad mood, but like, That guy can't play like I thought he could bring him down. You guys are right, I'm wrong. And so, and his staff loves him and adores him because he's willing to admit, like, I had a bad day. Like something about me watching that guy that day, I put the pieces together improperly is useful, just not at the level I've had him at, let's bring them down to a more reasonable value. And his scouts were very happy that he's willing to make that kind of determination.
Nick VinZant 32:36
How much does like marketability of a player? Go into it? Like, yeah, maybe this guy's not that great. But he's got lots of followers on social media. You know what I'm kind of mean, in that sense? Like, how much does that like? Yeah, but they can get us a lot of attention.
Dan Hatman 32:54
I think other sports have that a little bit worse than football. I think because football is as popular as it is. Across the country, both college and professional. A lot of these players are bringing a following, right. So most of them are marketable. Any of these quarterbacks that are being discussed right now they're all going to bring the following. They're all marketable. And there's a story a few years back of the Cleveland Browns, selecting Johnny Manziel, at a Texas a&m, who was a big celebrity that that year before Johnny Football is his nickname was and very entertaining player. And the story goes that the owner just said, like we're taking it. And the scouts were not on board, if that were they took them. They didn't want them that highly, you know, they'd rather have gone somewhere else because they didn't think he'd make it and the owner is like, No, I want to sell tickets, let's get the fan base excited that this player is going to change our organization. And they ended up taking them and he was out of the league within a couple of years. What
Nick VinZant 33:55
round would you say is generally like that's the hardest round to get right? That's where people are really going to be scratching? Is it one of the earlier rounds? Because it kind of gets overwhelmed? Or is it kind of towards the later like, what round? Would you say is the hardest round to scout for?
Dan Hatman 34:11
I think the easy answer is to say the late rounds, because you're taking flyers, you're buying some traits, but you know, you're not buying all of them. And you're hoping some of it sticks. But my answer is going to be the first round. Because I think there's so many forces on it. We just talked about the marketing. That's the biggest but it's not irrelevant. Like your owner is going to be involved in your first round selection. Like you're going to have to convince your owner on why that matters. Because this industry comes to the 24/7 news cycle, right where people are going to nitpick everything you do and that particular selection is going to get nitpicked above all else. And so you're letting not just how the player performs, but the positional value, like some positions are just more valuable than others. So the best player available to you may be a running back. But if you hold the top selection, you should probably be taking a quarterback or a pass rusher offensive lineman or something like that that are more valuable. So do you take the more valuable position? Or do you take the better player? Right? How does that work into your team building because it's all about resource allocation. Right. And then there's a time where you look at it and say, I'm looking at these two players. And I think I like one above the other by a little bit. But the player that I like is in a position group where there's 10, other guys that I like, a little less, but I still like them, versus the player of the two that I'm looking at that I like a little bit less early on, is that a position where after him, I don't know what I'm gonna get, if anything. And so now all of a sudden, I'm taking a player that maybe I like, a little bit less, because the market that year isn't giving me other options. Whereas the other PC might see if you're trying to think through all these different strategies of not just that one selection, but of the seven 810 selections that you have, how do I maximize the value across all of them? And do I even do that this year? Do I get myself out of this draft class this year, and punt to next year. And I acquire other resources for doing so. Right? allow somebody else to come up and use my selection and get other resources from them that I can use down the road? I think the first one is really, really hard.
Nick VinZant 36:25
So how does somebody become an NFL scout? I know that you run an academy for it. But how does somebody become an NFL scout?
Dan Hatman 36:33
Yeah, that was a decade ago, I started the scouting Academy to answer that question. Because people were wanting to get in, you know, people's interest in things around team building, and the draft was bigger than it ever was. And I had worked for three different NFL clubs at that point in time. And nobody had a standardized training protocol, nobody had a standardized selection process, there really wasn't a place to go and learn and develop in this before you were there. So it felt like a chicken and egg problem like teams wanted people that knew what to do. But the only place to learn what to do is with a team. And all these other industries have some mechanism, whether it be through apprenticeship, or whether it be through a four year university and a degree track. Like you could go and learn about the industry before you have to do it in the NFL scout was not one of them. Right? You were in it. And you had to decide if you liked it and could do it on the fly. I enjoy being in those situations. So I put together something where folks can come and spend time learning Do they like this? Are they good at this prior to having to go actually do it for real?
Nick VinZant 37:39
That does seem really difficult, right? In the sense that like there's not really any training and then you're kind of on your own completely, like, we don't have any training but go out on the road. And we'll see you in six months.
Dan Hatman 37:52
That's the one that kind of takes you under their wing and mentors you but it's not guaranteed like I was in places with great mentors, like Louis Riddick. And Philly was amazing to me, I could be in his office all day long, asking questions if I wanted to. And then I was in buildings where I got to see my boss, like once a week for an hour. And I could bring questions during that time. And that's still great. I mean, it was still an opportunity to get my questions answered. But that was it. I got one hour, once a week. And other than that, it better be pertinent to whatever I'm producing for them. But no other questions are going to be answered during that time. And so you could feel the disconnect in development. Like, I know, I'm here, I know I'm producing, I know, I'm not producing my best work, but you're also not helping me produce my best work. So I'm just gonna keep trying to fake it till I make it versus being in a place where someone's like, Hey, let me show you where you screwed up and how to not do that again.
Nick VinZant 38:41
Yeah, that would be really difficult. Is it a job that a lot of people do people last long?
Dan Hatman 38:48
I look at it, I want to tell people about it, you gotta jump off a cliff, right? Because it's not going to be on your terms, it's going to be on theirs. And so the people that are willing to jump off the cliff. Yeah, they're lifers, they'll do it for as long as the teams will handle. And then the people that can't quite commit, and they can see themselves being happy, and so many other things, they should probably go do those other things. Because the pay is not going to be what you want. The hours aren't going to be what you want the family, life's not going to be what you want. Very few people are going to know your name for a long time. And so you're going to have to be very comfortable. That your work in building this team is something that can give you satisfaction without all those other things, maybe being there to give you satisfaction. And if you're okay with that, then you'll love it.
Nick VinZant 39:32
How much does an NFL Scout make?
Dan Hatman 39:35
It depends. Cities, like how much it costs to live in cities all impacted different ownership groups and how much they pay will impact it. Most guys are going to start somewhere in the 60 $70,000 range full time with benefits. Now when you talk about that per hour, they're working almost twice the amount of hours is most people's weeks. So that pay scale changes a little bit from that perspective. And then Usually every two years you'll have a contract renewal. And that might come with a $2,000 bump that might come with a $5,000 Bump if they renew you at that point. And so after about a decade, you're probably making closer to 100k. For some teams that might be 120 140. Before you get to Director track, and then you could make 150 Plus, and some of those director track jobs.
Nick VinZant 40:21
I want to thank Dan, so much for joining us, if you want to connect with him, we have a link to him on our social media sites. We're Profoundly Pointless on tik, Tok, Instagram, and YouTube. And we've also included his information in the episode description. If you want to see more of this interview, the YouTube version will be live on April 18, at 12:30pm Pacific. Okay, now let's bring in John shul, and get to the pointless part of this show. And for our longtime listeners who may notice something is a little bit off. And for our longtime listeners, who may notice that something is just a little bit off, I accidentally didn't use the right microphone, when you die. What position do you want your hands to be in? If
John Shull 41:12
I died, tragically, I want it to be in a manner where people are like, Oh, that do went out terribly.
Nick VinZant 41:18
I want my arms to be in the position in which I died, actually. So if I was like getting hit by a bus, they would just be up like this. Like,
John Shull 41:26
like, if I fall off a building, I just want to be laid out the way that I landed on the ground. You know what I mean? Just like a pancake like flat out? Is there anything maybe more scarier than that? Like, say, say you just accidentally fall off a building. And like, you know, your die like you're dead. The only
Nick VinZant 41:44
thing that I would think maybe is a little bit more scary is drowning. Because maybe somehow you fall off a building and survive. Maybe like you land on somebody else. Or there's a truck carrying mattresses that as like it's open, you know, maybe somehow. But I would think that either like falling to your death or drowning would be the scariest because it's just over. It's like there's nothing you can do. Nothing you can do.
John Shull 42:12
Yeah, that's terrible. What a way to kick off the episode. Okay,
Nick VinZant 42:16
but if you were in a coffin you would have where would you have your hands? by your sides?
John Shull 42:21
Yeah, I mean, I Well, no, actually, I I mean, thinking about this more, I probably have like my, my hands kind of parallel with my body. And I would just have me giving a thumbs up, like both hands would be giving thumbs up.
Nick VinZant 42:37
I think I would want my hands to be like behind my head. Like sunglasses on, like just chillin. Just hanging out. I will say that, to me has always been a weird thing that we then go like, look at the dead person's body afterwards. Like, wait a minute, they're dead. We're just gonna go look at him. Yeah, it's kind of weird. That's kind of crazy that we do that.
John Shull 42:57
It's kind of like people who lie in state for like, 30 days. And it's like that a natural like that body is decomposing.
Nick VinZant 43:08
Oh, yeah, man, they gotta be maintaining that thing. Okay, but if you were falling to your death, would you want to lay and face down or face? Like, would you turn around? So you hit your back? Or would you ever land phased out?
John Shull 43:19
I don't think I'd want to see it coming. That's actually a good question. Like, if you knew you were going to die. Would you want to see it coming or not?
Nick VinZant 43:30
I guess I would actually land feet first. I would try to land feet first. Because you never know. Like, maybe Oh, what if it's like the year 2100. And I can do like, oh, man, all we got to do is put some cybernetics in you and you're good to go. But there's been people who have survived like falling out of an airplane and land in the mud or something like that. There's been people who've lived through it. They're
John Shull 43:51
what yeah, you're I mean, there was one case, most notably, I think it's like the skydivers and things where something like their chute doesn't open in time. And they just flop into the earth going like 200 miles an hour, or whatever it is. Yeah.
Nick VinZant 44:05
Okay, let's see what the audience I asked the audience how they would like to go with their hands down. 22% said by my side 35% said, across my chest 13% said behind my head, and of course, because it's our audience 30% said they would like to have their hands on their private parts, which actually is a man, I could understand that just having your hands down there like protecting it just in case. It'd be a little bit different for a woman I think, but for a man if I saw a man laying in a coffin, and he had his hands over his privates, I'd be like, Oh, okay, well protected. What was most important?
John Shull 44:40
Like, you just made me think I've always wanted to be cremated. You know, like, I didn't want to, like have any remnants of me left when I die. But maybe now I'll make you all like, come see me and they'll lay me out in like a fun position. And you all will be like, yeah, that's John. That's how I want to remember broom,
Nick VinZant 45:00
like doing the Egyptian thing, or like, or like, you know, just
John Shull 45:04
me like, you know, just sitting up in a chair just looking all drunk and mad or something, you know,
Nick VinZant 45:12
by with candles or surrounding you, you can just be sitting there with candles, I would have no problem if somebody took my dead body out for a night on the town. Like if my friends were just like, hey, man, we're taking you out one more time and just took my dead body out for a night on the town. I'd be okay with that.
John Shull 45:27
Let me ask you a question. If, say I died and I left something, you know, to you saying like, Hey, Nick, when I die. I need you to take me to the dance club one last time. Would you actually do it? Oh, yeah, I
Nick VinZant 45:41
put you like in a wheelchair. And I would take you if that was your last wish I would take you.
John Shull 45:46
Oh, that's very kind. That's very nice. Yeah.
Nick VinZant 45:48
That'd be awesome. Two for one drinks.
John Shull 45:54
People walk up. No, this guy's fine. He just passed out. I'm gonna
Nick VinZant 45:57
he's just he's just he just he's he's just rested.
John Shull 46:02
Man, it's yeah. All right. Well, that's a morbid question. But okay.
Nick VinZant 46:08
I don't know, man. I think you have to think about death. You live life and live, you think about death. I
John Shull 46:13
think the older they get the more the more you think about it. But I think the more you come to peace with it. If that makes any sense. Like I think when you're in your 20s 30s 40s It's like, Death isn't you know, it is what it is. And then 50s 60s 70s hit and you're like, maybe just start dotting those T's and crossing those eyes.
Nick VinZant 46:34
Yeah, 20s 30s 40s it's there. But it's not real to you yet. I think it's gonna start getting real to us real quick. Well, I mean, that day is coming.
John Shull 46:48
Well, I mean, since we're talking about death, I feel like we need to talk about someone that passed away last week, Mr. OJ Simpson,
Nick VinZant 46:56
that I don't think that there is a lot of sadness that he is gone. No, in
John Shull 47:02
you know, it's, it's funny, because it kind of turned out, at least in my newsroom where I was people asked, especially the old timers. Do you remember where you were when the chase happened? You know, I was 10, eight, something like that. So I don't really remember it a whole lot. But apparently, it's been compared to like a 911. You know, obviously not the seriousness in terms of hundreds of people dying. 1000 people dying, but just the moment like the gravity of the situation.
Nick VinZant 47:32
Everybody was aware of it a cultural milestone. Now that was before my time. I don't really remember it. I remember something about it. But I don't really remember it. I think that that's one of those people that like I think, you know, nobody's really gonna miss him too much.
John Shull 47:50
No, but it got me thinking out of all the major sports star controversies that have bled into real life. And I mean, like the people that have murdered other people, bla bla bla, bla bla, bla bla, but you know what I mean? Yeah, no, thanks. I mean, it probably went right. Oh, Jay kicked it off, at least for our generation. And then you had the Tiger Woods. You had the Tiger Woods scandal, which I mean that that was everywhere, because he was probably the number a top five athlete in the world at the time.
Nick VinZant 48:20
Yeah, those were big scandals. I think you could make that argument that like OJ was probably the biggest fall from grace of all time. Maybe he wasn't as high of a notoriety position, or he wasn't as known as Tiger Woods. But Tiger Woods obviously didn't like Tiger Woods didn't kill anybody. Right. I think that oh, Jay, you could say like, that was somebody that was seen a certain way, and then was completely different.
John Shull 48:45
Yeah, even if you if you compare it, like I compared it to Aaron Hernandez, the former patriots tight end could have been a Hall of Fame. Yeah. That, you know, killed somebody that he then it came out that he was like, actually maybe killed other people, blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately, it took his own life in prison, but in saying that, there was a difference because he always had he had a rough upbringing, blah, blah, blah, OJ, you loved OJ. He was in movies. He was a Hall of Fame football player. And then behind the curtain, it's like no, this guy's actually kind of seems like he might be kind of a shit. Oh,
Nick VinZant 49:20
he was he was Bill Cosby. And then you found out about them. Right? I don't think that if you look at anybody who's really successful in any kind of sphere, I don't think that they're probably going to end up being a very nice person. Like you don't get to those kinds of places being a nice person.
John Shull 49:36
Let me ask you a very dark humor question. But if you were gonna get murdered, say it was inevitable. Would you have a be by somebody famous like that, or just by a no name person?
Nick VinZant 49:54
Well, I mean, I'd like people to you know, remember me I guess a little bit. I guess you got to take 15 minutes however you get it, I guess by somebody famous. I've always put down there that I've like eaten by a bear. That was my thing is like I would like to be eaten by a bear. Because if you go to wherever you go afterwards, and people are sitting around telling stories and like how did you go fell asleep? How did you go heart attack? How did you go? I got eaten by a bear. What? That's the story. That's the story. That's a way to experience the last thing that you would ever experience. I think death is something that we will obviously all have to go through. You might as well see what it's like.
John Shull 50:35
I just without bringing religion into it, because we know religion and politics are the two things shying away from I just, I would be really upset if I die like this horrific death, like getting sucked into a jet engine, you know, or something or, or being eaten by a polar bear. And then I just die. Like
Nick VinZant 50:55
I Oh, it's just elevate, you don't get to like, tell anybody. Yeah, just be like, Yeah, I agree with that. I actually agree with that. Like, right. You want to be able to like talk about it afterwards? Yeah. Like I wouldn't be that's a jeep. You got gypped like,
John Shull 51:09
Whatever, whatever you go to sell, you know, dining room table. And you're just sitting with other people that have been eaten by bears throughout history. Like that would be great conversation.
Nick VinZant 51:18
Oh, you that's depends on like that decides where you go when you die is the method of your death. Yeah. That's the thing is there's probably nobody who's completely alone. Like, I wonder what would be the most unique manner of death and all of human history, like the craziest way or the most unique way somebody has died? Because it's always one of those things. Like no matter what has happened to you in life, no matter how strange the circumstances, just because of the sheer population, there's probably 1000s of people that that also has happened to at some point.
John Shull 51:51
Yeah. And then you just go back through time. And of course, I mean, view literally everyone out there that's listening to this right now. You can think of any way, awkwardly way to die. And it's probably happened to 1000 people in over the course of history. That
Nick VinZant 52:06
would be crazy. If that's decides where you go, like, Okay, how would you go heart attack? All right, you're in room six.
John Shull 52:14
But like, there's, there's a one answer,
Nick VinZant 52:16
room seven. That's where you're going? Like, who knows, man, it might be right. I've got to be organized, that
John Shull 52:25
if there is a heaven, that is what I that is what I want it to be like, so that'd be great. Okay, all right. All right. Shout outs. Let's do it. Let's see. We're gonna start with Jack Straw. Well, Mike Floyd, Caitlin Moore, Tim Hudson. Dave Hagen, Andrew hat, Mr. Justin Cook, Terry James, Joel turbo, jet Stam. I know I'm breezing through these but we're going to end with little alliteration. Brian brockholes. Holt appreciate everyone this week.
Nick VinZant 53:05
There is really no end to the interestingness of the internet because there's an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to lists of unusual deaths. And just just to read like the first two or three out of five out of hundreds of these. An Egyptian pharaoh died while being carried by being carried on a litter and then was killed by a hippopotamus. There was a person who was smothered to death by gifts of cloaks that they were showered upon him after winning a war. So like everybody through so many gifts, Atomy died from it. Oh, wow. choked to death on a grape after painting an elderly woman and dying of laughter. Like, man, there's some crazy ways to go. Okay, let's sign up for a while. Alright, well, I
John Shull 54:01
yeah, let's move. Oh, you
Nick VinZant 54:02
got your new thing? Let's hear what this is gonna be or do you not do it?
John Shull 54:05
No. So it's I did do it. It's an original concept. But I figure okay, it's a Profoundly Pointless spin on it. So, you know, I'm sure you've heard of, you know, marry, fuck kill. Instead, I figured we couldn't necessarily do that one, even though, you know, it would get kind of wild. So instead, I changed it to be podcast related. So it's the same type of thing. But instead, these are the three choices that you have. So here we go have on the podcast, be the main spokesperson for this podcast, podcast, or have this person win a contest in which you and I have to spend an evening out in the town with them.
Nick VinZant 54:50
Okay, so those guys, those who have them on the show, haven't be a spokesperson or have to hang out with them. Yes. Okay.
John Shull 54:58
All right. So here we go. Ah, so I picked three sets of three. So, okay, we'll go from there. These are completely random names that I literally just thought of up top my
Nick VinZant 55:08
head. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right.
John Shull 55:11
Antonio Brown. Former out of former NFL football player that went crazy.
Nick VinZant 55:17
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's
John Shull 55:19
CTE right there. Kim Kardashian or Kanye?
Nick VinZant 55:27
Oh, crap. Oh, crap.
John Shull 55:30
And, by the way,
Nick VinZant 55:32
don't have on the show. Have I? I am not a fan of kind of like a clickbait general, like have somebody on there just because it's gonna get a lot of clicks kind of stuff. Like I don't like to kind of encourage stupidity. Oh, man, I guess have on go. Kim has to be the spokesperson. Sure, I guess have on the show would be Kanye West. Because Okay, the justification for having Kanye West on the show is that even though he has all of these other things, he is incredibly talented at music. Like he is really good at that. And it would be interesting to kind of pick the brain of somebody who is uniquely talented in one area, despite all the other things and then hang out with Antonio Brown, just because that's going to be crazy. Just be like, what's this going to be like?
John Shull 56:30
I feel I mean, I agree. I agree with you. I feel like you could probably swap Brown and Kanye though. Because I feel like either. Either circumstance, if you have them on a podcast are probably going to say something really ignorant, that's going to get us in trouble. Or if you go out with them, they're also going to do something that's probably gonna get you in trouble. So you're kind of screwed either way. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 56:52
I don't think I would want to hang out with somebody super, super famous. That seems like that would be a pain in the ass. Like, I don't think you could really have that much fun.
John Shull 57:01
Yeah, well, especially with either of
Nick VinZant 57:03
them people would. Yeah, right. Okay. Okay. All right.
John Shull 57:07
All right. Round two. And by the way, you can do this at home if you want. Let us know what you think. Alright, so round two, liver King. You're familiar with that guy? Logan, Paul, or Clint Eastwood?
Nick VinZant 57:26
Oh, Clint Eastwood would be on the show. Because that's the way God dang. I can't stand people like liver King Larry King was this guy who basically pushed forward this big thing about ancestral life, that if you eat liver and you do these things, you'll be a man again. And then it turns out, he was completely full of crap and basically just took steroids, which anybody who looked at him for a second had any sort of knowledge would immediately know that that's a huge lie. I despise people like that, who knowingly lie and manipulate people. So I just, I would like to interviewed him and try my best to kind of tear him apart. Okay, definitely. would, I'd hang out with Clint Eastwood to get the stories? Like, I mean, he's, I'm not a huge fan of Clint Eastwood. But I mean, that would be kind of interesting. Also, now, he's 93. I think we're gonna have many Well, who's the other option?
John Shull 58:18
Logan Paul.
Nick VinZant 58:22
I'll have him as the spokesperson, simply because he's famous. Like, alright, let's bite the bullet here. But wait, wait, I can't remember which ones which which one's the wrestler? Which one's the boxer? Jake
John Shull 58:32
is the boxer who's going to be facing Mike Tyson? Next month, I think or two months. Logan Paul is the wrestler slash owner of prime energy drinks.
Nick VinZant 58:43
Oh, okay. Yeah, I'll go with my thing. I'll have him as the spokesperson. And I'll hang out with Clint Eastwood. Because we can both go to bed at seven o'clock.
John Shull 58:54
So it's really a lose lose there because Clint Eastwood isn't gonna be able to talk. He may actually pass away while you're eating dinner. So you probably just put him in a I don't know, cross his arms. Maybe.
Nick VinZant 59:05
That's a dirty hairy man. Can't disrespect me like that. I
John Shull 59:09
mean, he is. Round three. Jab bush. Miley Cyrus, are your most hated in law. Oh,
Nick VinZant 59:26
um, which one's Jeb Bush? George. One of the bushes. Yeah,
John Shull 59:30
I mean, he's, yeah, I mean, he's juniors or seniors son, but he ran against Trump when Trump in 2016
Nick VinZant 59:39
Oh, God, I don't remember him. Okay, not really. I mean, I'd be interested in Miley Cyrus. She's probably got some interesting stories. Right. She is talented. She was somebody that at first you thought like, oh, there's no talent there but I think that she actually has some talent in what she does. So probably have her On this show I would hang out with my end in law, because then I could say like, well, I hung out with them, and I never got to do that again. And then I'd have Jeb Bush be the spokesperson, and then just like, never give him any jobs. Any politician. I don't care who it is like, no, no.
John Shull 1:00:21
I don't. I didn't know what he's doing now. But anyways, well, that's it. Hopefully you liked it. I'll bring it back next week. A little better. A little bigger. Okay,
Nick VinZant 1:00:29
okay. Oh, are you ready for our top five then?
John Shull 1:00:32
I am I'm Yes, I am. Okay.
Nick VinZant 1:00:37
Like I was gonna say so that. So our top five is top five. punctuation marks, commas periods, apostrophes, parentheses, dashes, dots, semi colon, colon, all that kind of stuff. What's your number five.
John Shull 1:00:53
I just want to put this precursor out there that I feel it kind of all of the top fives we've ever done throughout the last five years or whatever it's been. This is the dumbest yet hardest one. I've tried to fill Oh, it's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in saying that. My number five is I promise, I don't even know if these are punctuation. I think they are punctuation marks. So I'm gonna go. Oh, my God, I can't stop laughing because I just I literally spent 20 minutes today going? Like, is that is that punctuation? I think it is. No, it isn't. Wait, it is so. So
Nick VinZant 1:01:39
just googled the list of punctuation marks, man, there's 26 of them? Well, there didn't need to be so many. Like,
John Shull 1:01:48
I went back my screens here. So my number five is going to semi colon strictly because it's not a colon. So I think that's one of the worst names for a punctuation mark. And it also has a comma in it as well. So that's why I
Nick VinZant 1:02:05
have absolutely no idea when you're supposed to use a colon or semicolon. I have no clue. I know it's something about a list for a colon but a semicolon. I have absolutely no idea when you're supposed to use that. None. And I could look it up and I still would not know.
John Shull 1:02:23
I don't know. But according to a couple of websites I was looking at that semi colon is rated as the number one punctuation mark for its versatility. Except I don't know what the fuck that means.
Nick VinZant 1:02:36
Nobody knows what it means. Like the semicolon is number one because of its versatility. If it was so versatile, people would know how to use it. Nobody knows how to use that. Like, oh, that's supposed to be a semicolon there is it? I have no idea. Nobody knows. My number five is the exclamation point. It's overused, but it is the funnest punctuation mark. exclamation points. Great. It's like it's fun to put in there. Just people use it way too much. I one one exclamation point per email. That's it.
John Shull 1:03:09
Interesting that it's that high on your list. I have a further up on mine. So let me get to my number four. Okay, okay. For maybe the most underrated punctuation and that's it's called an M dash. But it's just a little dash essentially, that like separates words or whatever.
Nick VinZant 1:03:30
Oh, you mean like the thing when you put two words together? Like, I can't even think of an example. Like, right like, like before,
John Shull 1:03:39
we like before we knew it like how home run used to have a dash. But now Now home run doesn't have a dash because it never needed a dash. But that's the dash I'm talking about.
Nick VinZant 1:03:50
Okay. Yeah, I can't think of anything. I can't think of a single example of a word. I know exactly what you're talking about. But I cannot think of a single example of a word. I'm terrible at grammar. Um, okay. My number four, I think is probably one of the most helpful punctuation marks isn't an apostrophe. Because that really communicates that either that's a conjunction or possessive. I think an apostrophe really helps kind of help you understand what somebody is talking about.
John Shull 1:04:25
Yeah, I mean, other. It's just blogged to me, you know, it's like, it's like, it's vanilla. It's like, going to a restaurant and getting a chicken breast to me. That's what I feel like. It is.
Nick VinZant 1:04:37
It's necessary. Yeah. But if we were making a list of the best meats chicken is going to be on there and it's going to be up at the top.
John Shull 1:04:43
Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's just black to me. It is what it is. Okay. Okay. My number three is the exclamation point. Oh.
Nick VinZant 1:04:54
How many exclamation points will you use in an email? Have you will you put an exclamation point in an email and a text? Message your exclamation point user or not? Yeah,
John Shull 1:05:02
I will. Now, I don't know if I should be saying this out loud. Do I ever mean it? That's a different story, but I definitely I definitely use it.
Nick VinZant 1:05:13
For anybody who is listening, that may be a woman to this, I think we have at least one female audience whose listener, men never mean an exclamation point. Men will put an exclamation point, but we don't mean it.
John Shull 1:05:27
We don't mean it. Like everything else. Ladies, we don't mean much.
Nick VinZant 1:05:31
We don't mean it. We do not mean the exclamation point. Well write it. We don't mean it. I'm gonna get controversial here. My number three is a period.
John Shull 1:05:45
That is wow. Yeah, that is I had
Nick VinZant 1:05:47
reversal. I have period at number three. I think a lot of people would put that way at the top of the list, but I'm putting period is number three. Okay,
John Shull 1:05:57
do you want to explain or you want to wait? Because I, I have it on my list a little bit further up?
Nick VinZant 1:06:04
I think that it will be explained as we go through the list. I don't think I need to explain it. Explain it, period.
John Shull 1:06:14
Well done. By number two is the question mark.
Nick VinZant 1:06:21
I think the question mark is completely useless. I think a question mark is a completely useless piece of punctuation. Because do you really ever not know if somebody's asking you a question? Like, how are you? I didn't know that was a question until they put the question mark, it's completely useless. What do you need it for?
John Shull 1:06:38
So maybe 20 years ago, I would have agreed with you on this. But I feel like now more than ever. It's the most useful punctuation mark there is. Because people, and I think everyone out there listening, including yourself, you'll agree you don't really read someone's text message, do you?
Nick VinZant 1:07:00
I look at it. Sure give it? Yeah.
John Shull 1:07:03
But if you see a question mark, you're gonna go oh, they're asking me a question, then you might actually read the whole message. Obviously, my number one is probably pretty self explanatory at this point. But I feel like no, like the question mark is the most useful punctuation mark.
Nick VinZant 1:07:19
I think the question mark is completely useless, and has quite frankly, contributed to the downfall of our society. Because people now have less reading comprehension, you should be able to tell if it's a question by reading it. You don't you don't need a question mark there. Nobody shouldn't be confused about was that a question?
John Shull 1:07:38
But that's, I mean, you can say that for half of the 26 punctuation marks, then, like, so don't put an exclamation point at the end of a sentence. are people supposed to just be able to know that that person's excited?
Nick VinZant 1:07:51
No, I think that those other ones you shouldn't you could you need some clarification. Nobody needs clarification is the question like, What time will you be home? Like, oh, God, well, they didn't they put a period? I guess it's not a question.
John Shull 1:08:07
I mean, you must have people that read your messages. I just know you because I've had some people go to me and say, Oh, I didn't know that was a question. So
Nick VinZant 1:08:15
well, then see, then you've got to write better or read better? It should be very clear that it's a question there should be no confusion, I don't think you need question marks at all. My rant is over. My number two is a comma. I actually enjoy putting a comma. And thanks. It's like solving a little riddle. Like where does the comma go?
John Shull 1:08:36
See if I was gonna put the commas not on my list. But it's more it's more vanilla to me than chicken. Like it's just there. And people don't even really know how to utilize it correctly. Anyways.
Nick VinZant 1:08:50
That's why I think if you can unlock the secrets of the comma, the comma can be one of your most powerful allies. You don't really know how to use it. Kala, however, comma, if you don't, can cause problems. I think the karma is like, solving a little bit of riddle like, where does it go? Where is it supposed to be? Once
John Shull 1:09:11
again, no one pays that close of attention to really care.
Nick VinZant 1:09:14
No, no, they don't. What's your number one?
John Shull 1:09:16
That's pretty, pretty simple. The period period
Nick VinZant 1:09:22
I would have I personally just like the comma better than the period but I think then you can make a strong argument for the period is number one, but nine number my number one, I think is now the most useful punctuation mark in all of society, the apt, I think, apt as taken over the period as the single best piece of punctuation because you have to use that. You got to add people on social media, you got to use it in emails, I think ad has taken over the punctuation world and is now the single most important piece of punctuation that you can have. I mean, the Add symbol.
John Shull 1:09:58
I don't disagree. Read that it's important. However, I feel like the period is the by far the most used punctuation mark. I mean, ever, I mean, probably gets used millions 1000s trillion times a day. And then you have the Add sign. I mean, here's my thing, if you're gonna put the ad side unless you should put the hashtag on the list as well.
Nick VinZant 1:10:24
But you can get away with not having a period, you have to use the app. Because you either have to send somebody an email, or you have to tag them on social media that has to be used the period does not. That's my rationale for it. It's taken over the Act has never been more popular in the grammar. cool kid club. strikes the new hot thing in town, if it walks into the grammar party. Everybody's like, hey, oh, here comes the new hotline.
John Shull 1:10:56
If you were if you were a grammar of you are a punctuation mark, what do you think you would be?
Nick VinZant 1:11:04
Parentheses? Because I'm always like that, but actually, God I would be parentheses What do you think you would be?
John Shull 1:11:14
Probably the question mark.
Nick VinZant 1:11:19
Or I could be the dash dash dash that like that did. I can feel like I could be that too. What's in your honorable mention?
John Shull 1:11:26
Let's see. So I put coal in quotation marks. The I almost had quotation marks in there parentheses. I don't know what these were called. But the three dots I think they're called a ellipses, I believe Yeah, ellipses. That sounds right. And then just the slash, just a good old slash.
Nick VinZant 1:11:47
I really liked the dash but I just never know when I'm supposed to use it. I like the dash but I don't get it. I don't know when I'm supposed to use it. I like ampersand just because. Well, I'd like to be able to say ampersand. I don't know if I've ever actually used it, but I like ampersand. ampersand. I know what that thing
John Shull 1:12:05
is. It makes you sound very refined and smart. So it makes you sound smart. Exactly. You keep saying um
Nick VinZant 1:12:13
I like a backslash. I feel like that can be very useful. That's pretty much it I get sick a quotation marks because you got to do that's like the only punctuation mark you got to do twice. I think any as
John Shull 1:12:25
next week, we should do letters on a keyboard. While we're just on this. This
Nick VinZant 1:12:30
track, you're gonna do letters on the keyboard. That's letters on the keyboard. Okay. Okay, that's gonna go ahead and bring a period to this. I'm so proud of that. I just came up with it on the fly like that. Right there. Genius. Anyway, I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance. Leave us a quick review. We really appreciate it really helps us out and let us know what you think are the best punctuation marks. I stand by my opinion. There's no need for the question mark. There's no need for the question mark. Like if I end this by saying Do you think there's a need for the question mark? Is that a question like yeah, you know, it's a question. You don't need it. But let us know what you think are the best punctuation marks