Forensic Sculptor Lisa Bailey
They don’t have a face. They don’t have a name. There’s just a skull, a crime and someone missing. Forensic Sculptors help find missing people by recreating someone’s face from skeletal remains. We talk forensic sculpting, famous cases , true crime and working at the FBI. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Kinds of Meat.
Forensic Sculptor Lisa Bailey: 01:25
Pointless: 28:42
Top 5: 42:00
Interview with Forensic Sculptor Lisa Bailey
Nick VinZant 0:11
Welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode skulls and meat,
Lisa Bailey 0:19
so we are rebuilding the faces of unidentified people from their skull. When I started the bureau, I thought all skulls looked like. I mean, it's like it's a skull. But the more you see, then your eye gets attuned. So like my actual first hit, I remember where I was, I was out pumping gas. And a co worker called me and said, you know, the anthropologist, the police called and it was exactly that what I said that somebody was watching TV when the the news came up and said, I think that might be my sister.
Nick VinZant 0:54
I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, subscribe, leave us a rating or review. We really appreciate it. It really helps us out. If you're a new listener, welcome to the show. If you're a longtime listener, thank you so much for all of your support. So our first guest HELPS POLICE solve crimes, and families find missing people using only skulls. This is forensic sculptor, Lisa Bailey. What What is it forensic sculpture like? What are you doing?
Lisa Bailey 1:28
So we are rebuilding the faces of unidentified people from their skull? Because these are usually like the last ditch attempts to identify somebody's fingerprints didn't ID them? fingerprints, DNA, dental records, all that. So when all those I don't like to say fail, but when those have not resulted in an ID usually because there's not corresponding information in a database in order to match them. It's a pretty unusual job. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 1:56
I would imagine like So is this something that happens a lot? Or is this something that happens? Only in a few cases? Like how prevalent is this
Lisa Bailey 2:04
I once did the numbers and it came out to like, I went online on a database and counted how many facial approximations there were compared to the unidentified was like maybe 10%.
Nick VinZant 2:16
So in about 10% of cases where somebody can't be identified, they'll they'll bring in a facial sculptor.
Lisa Bailey 2:22
So it's, it's the last it's the last resort. It's a very niche field, very niche.
Nick VinZant 2:27
How did you get into it, then, like, this is something that I've never even I never heard of it.
Lisa Bailey 2:32
It's funny, because like when I was a teenager, have you ever heard of the show Quincy? See all TV show The medical examiner, I saw somebody doing. It's called, it's also called facial approximation, because we're approximating what the person may have looked like. So I remember seeing a forensic sculptor and going, that is so cool. And then that was the end of it. Because, you know, nobody knew anything about that. This was the 70s. And basically, I got the job. Look in preparation. So when I saw the job posting for it, it was one of the very few times that a job for the FBI was in the newspaper. It was in the Washington Post, actually, I got to I got to had to Dunkin Donuts because I went there on a Sunday. And I was just looking through the Sunday paper. And I saw the FBI seal. And I was like, oh my god, what is this? And I loved my job at the time, I was a graphic artist, and I loved it. And I wasn't looking to leave. But it just sounded so incredibly fascinating. And even that ad didn't have the forensic sculpting in it, it had because it was at a lower level. So I started as an illustrator. Also, that works starting as an illustrator, you're doing demonstrative evidence, like courtroom trials. And then as you work your way up, then you can start working on the postmortem cases.
Nick VinZant 3:48
Is it more art or science?
Lisa Bailey 3:50
It is called a blending of both. So at the FBI, we always worked with an anthropologist, so I would never touch a skull without an anthropologist because they have to do the work that so they do the big four, the age six ancestry and stature, and they do a report and then I do the approximation, taking into account what they what they said, and then we'll talk we'll sit there and we'll look at the skull and you know, go okay, well, you know, this is what I'm seeing. And then I go about building the face. And then when it's about when it's at rest, when it's at like say like 80% is when the anthropologist would come in and look at it and see if going in the direction that they think is correct. Like they might say, No, this nose was really broken, like they would have had a really banged up note. So accentuate it, because we're trying to get people's attention. That's that's the thing with these approximations is they absolutely can work as an attention getter. And I fully believe because I've had so many cases where this happened that if somebody that knew that person see Is that image an imperfect image, they will, I believe they will recognize they will recognize their family member because it's all about the skull structure. Like you look the way you look because of your because of your skull. That's how most of the ideas are made. Like when there's been when there's been a match, it's usually a family member or a friend that recognizes the person, it's not going to be a perfect sculpture, there's no way it can be because you can't predict everything from the skull. But if somebody that knew that person is looking and sees that image, I think it's enough to make them stop and look, look at the case data and go, Oh, I haven't seen my cousin in 10 years or something. And that's when they can absolutely work.
Nick VinZant 5:44
If you were to put a number on it, let's say 100% is the sculpture that you make looks exactly like a photograph of that person. How close would you say you usually get? Are we talking like 50% 75%? Like, where do you think it is usually been?
Lisa Bailey 6:04
I've had a couple that were scary close, where the anthropologist and I looked at each other and we went wow, like knocked that one out of the park. That's that's not that's not a normal, that's not a normal, it's hard to say. Because, you know, we'll see things like if somebody had a very rounded chin, or they had, like I said, very wide set eyes or something about the face that they keyed off of. It's not it can't look exactly like the person because we don't do hair color, eye color. Those are all unknowns, because these are all skeletal remains. I'm usually I would say there's only one or two cases where I got an ID, like somebody saw it. And it worked, where I looked at the approximation and went, like, I could have done a few things differently.
Nick VinZant 6:52
So like looking at somebody's skull, right, like, what are you looking for that kind of gives you clues as to what they would look like. So
Lisa Bailey 7:01
like the shape of their orbits, are they are they sharp? Well like a brow ridge. So men have thicker brow ridges. So you can emphasize that the cheekbone shape like you think all skulls look alike, and they absolutely don't like once once you even put five in front of you, you can see how they're all different. So somebody that would have like a really broad cheekbone, that's usually like a nice, high cheekbone fat pad that I don't have. Chin's like somebody has, you know, like a like a rounded chin, or like very large jaw, things like that. It's it's all of those things put together. Because we know where the features are, we may not get the nose shape exactly right. Because you know, these skulls, some of them have been out in the elements for 1020 years, and they've been, there was whatever the trauma from how they died, if it was like a blunt force or something, or I've had skulls with huge holes in them from gunshots, where the anthropologist had to piece it back together. So the skulls we get are not pristine. So there can be some of the details that are lost. But it's basically when you look at it as a whole. And you have you know, the features are in the right place. And you've got the face structure, that that really, that really can work. So
Nick VinZant 8:24
maybe this will help me kind of understand maybe it won't, right, but like looking at my face, what would my skull tell you about how
Lisa Bailey 8:31
I oh my god, I do that. I do that all the
Nick VinZant 8:34
time. I would imagine that you do that with people.
Lisa Bailey 8:36
I really try not to like I asked my husband, I have a girlfriend, and we go to lunch all the time. And I told my husband I said her like her face is like my like my left cheekbone is more recessed. And so I could look at her and go, Oh, the left side of her face is like kind of a little bit recessed and his eyes a little bit higher than the other. So I'm going to point to your face, your right eye is higher than your left. So I can already tell that that your orbits would be just a little bit nice cheekbones. There's things like we just we can't tell, like lip shape mouse, things like that. But yeah, you would have a good looking skull, you would have a nice skull.
Nick VinZant 9:18
I take that as a compliment. Well, it
Lisa Bailey 9:19
really is true because you know we would get some skulls in and they would just be like these beautifully shaped skulls. It's it sounds bizarre, but I think any other forensic artist is gonna nod their head and go Yeah. And then there's some that are just you're dying to see what they look like in life because you know, the this is gonna be in this part of Utah. Like we'll have big flaring there where it's pulling out or my coworker got one once where I was so jealous because he had a huge forehead, I mean the eyes in in a perfectly proportioned face. Eyes are in the middle of your skull. It's like the artistic canons of proportion. So when he got the skull, the eyes were like way down here, and just a huge forehead, and really unique teeth. That's another thing, I could put a pin in that as far as how teeth help us. And he got an ID and that one was, like, almost dead on that look. Bad pun intended. But it looks so much like him. It was just, it was eerie. And I believe those have a better chance for recognition just because there's something unique going on. Like when I saw, I saw my skull scan, I have a completely average skull. If if I end up dead on identified and somebody reconstructs my face, because I don't I know. I'm actually rebuilding it just amusing. I took my skull scan, I had another forensic artist convert it to a printable file, got the copy of it. And so I'm using all the tissue depths that we used at the FBI, and I'm following all the guidelines to the letter to reconstruct the face. And my face does not follow the guidelines. Because my eyes are deep set. And I would not place those eyes as deep as my eyes are set in my orbits.
Nick VinZant 11:12
So to kind of help Help me put it in perspective, right. So if you had 10 skulls, how many of them would you say are average looking skulls? Right? Where they people kind of all look a little bit the same? Like out of 10? How many would you say are going to be average? How many of them are going to be like, Oh, that's a unique one, right? Like they have a unique feature to them?
Lisa Bailey 11:35
Probably too, it's hard, it's really hard to say because there could be some things that are unusual about the skull, that would not come across an approximation, like we've seen some where they might have a really wide back of the head or, like elongated, but that's not going to show up in the facial approximation. So you can have traits that are not going to translate. It's hard to say I mean, when we were at the University of Tennessee, I would say I don't know, maybe 30% kind of average. And then there was usually something going on, like just studying a skull. And you could tell okay, this cheek is more recessed. This is higher than the other things like that.
Nick VinZant 12:18
Are those differences though, something that a trained eye would notice or that somebody like if I walk into the room, I would immediately be like, Oh, that looks different. That looks different.
Lisa Bailey 12:27
For some for some subtleties like that, I think you need to be a trained eye because when I started the bureau, I thought all skulls looked like, I mean, it's like it's a skull. But the more you see, then your eye gets attuned. And then you can go okay, like I I am I am seeing this. And there have been times where I could say I don't know this, like this one, or that looks higher to me. And then I would get my get my partner or the anthropologist, and they go, oh, yeah, and it just could be the slightest thing. But I would say somebody that pretty much has to be obsessed with it. Because I guess you could say I got pretty obsessed with the job. I just loved it. I loved it. And it was just such a challenge. And just seeing if I could figure it out, like getting all those skulls together. And it's like, you know, can I figure this out? And with enough skulls? Can I determine like, okay, when there's this shape that's going to result in the face, you know, I mean, like, like, like cleft chins, cleft chins or a fault in the muscle, the muscle splits. What I would love to know, is there a feature on the like a bony structure on the chin, that would cause that muscle to split? Or does it just split? So that's one of the things are like dimples. Things like that would keep me up at night when I was in the job.
Nick VinZant 13:54
Because you couldn't tell that necessarily from just the bones. Now, is there like a certain ethnicity that is more challenging than another?
Lisa Bailey 14:02
Now that the challenge comes when there's a mixed ancestry? So sometimes we would have where it would be Caucasian possible Hispanic mixture. And then you're like, Okay, well, which, you know, which direction do you go, and you're just not sure how to sculpt certain things.
Nick VinZant 14:24
They, they tend to, like certain ethnicities tend to look like this or have more prominent features this way. And then that would make sense that if it's a mix of them, then you don't necessarily know which way to go.
Lisa Bailey 14:36
Right. Right. Like, yeah, like I had, I remember one where it was, it was a mixture. It was I think, like Hispanic and possible Asian. And so I was like, do I, I didn't want to offend anything. Like do I do the how you do the epicanthic fold. Like how do I sculpt that? To navy? It's like possibly look like somebody you have of Asian descent, or you don't know where you don't know how to go. And in the end, he was identified. And that's one where I wasn't thrilled with the thrilled with the resemblance. It didn't matter, it worked. But that's just some of the things you just can't tell
Nick VinZant 15:19
how, Okay, walk me through the kind of process of like, how this all starts, right? Like, when do you get involved in a case? How long does it take you to put everything together? Like walk me through that process?
Lisa Bailey 15:31
Okay, so every agency is different, but at the FBI, so either the medical examiner or the law enforcement agency, whoever has possession of the skull, they would bring it to the laboratory, it goes to the anthropologist first. And depending on whether the tests have been done on it, they might take a chunk out of it for DNA, like if DNA hasn't been done before. So the anthropologist does their work up, and then they transfer it to me. And I would say, typically, I can do a sculpture like, say, 40 hours, probably less by the time, you know, I was doing it for a while. But that's an extreme with all other cases. So I think the turn around, I believe our turnaround goal at the Bureau was once I took possession of the skull, that I would have the sculpture done and returned to the requesting agency within 90 days. And most often there, if you tell them, I should have this back in three months, they're thrilled because they're afraid it's going to get stuck in some, you know, in some endless, endless loop of bureaucracy or something. And that's just not how it works. So yeah, we turn them around pretty fast. after I'd finished the sculpture, then we get it photographed. And then I returned to school to evidence because it might need to go to other units in the laboratory for whatever testing. So that way, there's always a case manager. So they would, they would do the juggling of the case is like, Okay, this one had a gunshot wound, so it's going to go to firearms first, before it goes here, there, whatever. So I was usually the last person on that list. Oh, we never one thing, like I mentioned, we never sculpt on the real skull, ever, ever, ever. So the part I forgot is when they when the anthropologists would transfer the skull to me, I would have it scanned. At one point we had a scanner in our unit. So do a 3d scan of the skull. And then we would send that for printing. So we'd get a resin print of the skull. So we would have the evidentiary skull to the side, like protected. Only handle it with gloves, we never touch the skull. And then we would work on the replica.
Nick VinZant 17:44
So when you would get one though, this was always somebody that they didn't know who it was. It was never like, hey, we know who this person is. But I guess yeah, you would wait.
Lisa Bailey 17:55
Yeah, there'd be no, right? Yeah, there'd be no need for that. Yeah, they're, they're always like, we have, we have no idea who this person is, there's a gunshot wound, it's an obvious homicide. We're at a total loss. You can't find out who killed them until you know who the person is. So that was always very, just very, very, very satisfying. Like to get an ID and then go okay, like now now maybe they can find out who killed this person. You know, you want to give them their name back and give them a proper burial and hopefully be you know, have their family have some answers, but they
Nick VinZant 18:32
were almost always NIF are always seem to or appeared to be from, like, nefarious circumstances.
Lisa Bailey 18:38
Most were most were. Yeah, I mean, if I had a body and buried in the desert, in a plastic bag, even if they undetermined, you know, you don't see the trauma. It's like, well, you know, yeah, two and
Nick VinZant 18:51
two is four, right? I don't want to use the word success rate, but I'm going to use the word success rate, right. So what would you say is like, your success rate in the sense that like, Okay, I did this, many of them this, many were found, or this many people were identified.
Lisa Bailey 19:06
You know, what, I actually decided to look that up. One thing I have to make clear first, is that there's kind of like a definition or like, what would you call a hit? Like, if if I did a sculpture? Let's say I did a sculpture, and somebody's watching TV, and they see it and they go, Oh, that looks like my sister. I'm gonna call the police submit my DNA turns out to be her, like, no forensic artist is going to say that that's not a hit, like that's a hit. Sometimes you can put the sculpture out there, nothing happens for years, then you might get a cold hit in codice. We're just there's DNA match. And that would happen a number of times. I've had a number of cases where it was just a cold hit in the database, and then we get the ID photo. And then sometimes we go, oh, that's, you know, like, we're the anthropologist and I would be happy with that. So I didn't Always know how they came about, like when you would see, see the case in the newspaper, it would say they were identified by DNA, or that doesn't mean that somebody didn't see it and call on and lead, because facial approximations are not ideal. So the idea is with a DNA, so like my actual first hit, was a bonafide hit. I remember where I was, I was out pumping gas. And a co worker called me and said, you know, the anthropologist, the police called and it was exactly that what I said that somebody was watching TV when the the news came up and said, I think that might be my sister. And that was exactly how my first one happened. And that's, I practically lost my mind, because to me, it was validation that I was doing things right. Because I was, to me, my biggest fear is hurting a case. Like somebody sees it and goes, no, that couldn't be them. That would, that would give me nightmares. I was looking at the cases I've worked on and to the best that I can figure. I know, like, I think there were 33 that were ident that I have identified. And there are 6060 More of the cases I worked on, on Namus, which is the government's on identify database. So I guess you could say I've got a 33% rate, but then you don't want to be like you're taking credit for something when it was a cold hit on codice. Or, you know, so I don't like yeah, you don't I don't like using like, oh, I you know, I've got this success rate because you weren't the only person involved.
Nick VinZant 21:44
Are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted questions? Hardest part of the face to get right? easiest part of the face to get right?
Lisa Bailey 21:51
Hardest would be the mouth because there's just really nose there's nothing structural that's going to tell you what the lips are like, you know, I have thin lips. If I were an unidentified skull, the artist is going to make them thicker, because that's the guidelines. The guideline for lips is to make them the height of a tooth enamel. That's not me. Easiest kind of the cheeks just from what the cheeks the overall shape, basically a lot from what we learned from the body farm because, you know, you can get fooled to the eyes wrong. I would obsess over eyes constantly, I'd rip him out, you know, put them back in and, you know, but the whole as a whole destructure that's, that's usually you can get that. Unless somebody was extremely overweight or something. You can get that.
Nick VinZant 22:44
Oh, yeah. Cuz you wouldn't be able to tell you wouldn't be able to tell that weight necessarily from their skull. Right? Yeah, that makes sense.
Lisa Bailey 22:50
Yeah. Like, you know, forensic artists talk like, oh, this, you know, well, people's weight change people's weight changes over the course of their lifetime. So, you know, maybe they gained or lost 50 pounds, or, you know, you don't know. You know, like, I had one where a body was found in an abandoned kiln, like, somewhere in the middle of the woods. It was like an old factory or something. And the the clothes were very large, but she was skeletal. And so it's like, well, could she go to the store and buy clothes that fit? Or was she you know, because she was apparently homeless. So it's like, you don't know what weight to make them. Usually we would end up with an average weight.
Nick VinZant 23:33
I don't know exactly how to phrase this, but I think you'll know what I'm talking about. Right? What's the longest that someone has been missing and been identified?
Lisa Bailey 23:43
I believe it was 37 years she was on identified. And then she got IDT and the detective emailed me after I retired and told me so I was pretty psyched about that. And I remembered I remembered the case. So but I've seen them in the news like you know, maybe 5060 years and that's usually going to be a DNA hit. The the one thing that I really wish it would put forensic sculptors out of a job but you know, better technology would be using the genetic genealogy to build the family tree and then you know the contact they find maybe it cousin like that's happened on a few a few of my cases.
Nick VinZant 24:24
Oh, you can identify their family Yeah, I know. Okay. Yeah.
Lisa Bailey 24:28
Because you know, there's your always can't get the best quality of the DNA from the unidentified but like so you can develop a profile and then the DNA investigators, they might say, Okay, we think we tracked down a cousin and then they can they can build a link from there.
Nick VinZant 24:49
Oh, I get here right. Like we we know from your DNA that this person might be like your sixth cousin. Right? Okay. Like 23 and me are one of them. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, that kind of leads us into this. What was your what what's case kind of stands out to you the most?
Lisa Bailey 25:06
Actually, it's not an identified it's an age progression this has. I think, God, I remember his name, Lester Eubanks, he's still out there. I did an age progress and age progression as him maybe like 20 years ago. And the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children did a more updated one. So he was found guilty of raping and murdering a little girl. He was sentenced to death. He was undoubtedly guilty. I mean, he all the evidence, and he admitted to it. So you're sentenced to death that was commuted since he was commuted. And then because he was on such good behavior, they let him go Christmas shopping at a mall. With out being guarded.
Nick VinZant 25:54
And how is that even possible?
Lisa Bailey 25:57
Maybe he bribed the guards to guard some some Yeah, for whatever reason, he's still out there. And his father, there have been several TV shows about this about this case. And I think Lester Eubanks would be in his 70s Now, and his dad, very strong suspicion that he knew where he was he was in contact with them, and would not turn him in. So I would love to see Lester Eubanks get hauled in because he, you know, that's, that's the one. If I had to pick one.
Nick VinZant 26:31
Are there any ones that you've worked on that like, oh, people would probably recognize that?
Lisa Bailey 26:35
Probably not the name. But there was one that I did that was on Dateline. And it's, it's, I hope I'll be able to explain it without getting too mixed up. But I it was it's a episode of Dateline called the golden child. And people were stopping me in the hallway going, Oh, I saw it on Dateline last night. And like, I wasn't on Dateline. Well, they had us footage from another FBI thing showing the sculpting. And I had actually done an approximation of a female that was found in Virginia. And her case actually got tied to another missing person. Basically, they were married to the same man and he killed them both. So in solving in arresting him for the murder of his first of his second wife or girlfriend, they tied it together that he also murdered. The woman that I did the approximation of. And the weird thing was, is that it was, you know, FBI laboratories in Quantico, Virginia. And I used to take it's the garrison real Garrison Ville Road exit. I believe it's my 8184 add on. Those bodies were buried like, right, right around there. So we were all driving pass through graves. Basically,
Nick VinZant 27:55
that's pretty much all the questions I guys or anything you think that we missed, or anything like that.
Lisa Bailey 28:01
You can think of anything. I can't think of anything at the moment.
Nick VinZant 28:07
I want to thank Lisa, so much for joining us. If you want to connect with her. We have linked to her on our social media accounts. We're Profoundly Pointless on Twitter, tick tock, Instagram, and YouTube. And we've also included her information in the episode description, if you want to see more about what this process looks like. The YouTube version of this episode will be live on May 25. And we've also included links in the description to her website, and to her book that will be coming out in early 2024. Okay, now let's bring in John Shaw, and get to the pointless part of the show. Here's my question for you. Do you think that you could get a way with a significant crime?
John Shull 28:55
No to current day? Maybe before? I don't know 1995? Probably. But now there's cameras everywhere.
Nick VinZant 29:05
How many crimes? Do
John Shull 29:06
you think that you have committed probably dozen to 20?
Nick VinZant 29:11
I think you've probably committed way more crimes than that than you realize. I think most people probably committed at least 100 crimes.
John Shull 29:19
I wouldn't say that many I think a lot of people live boring lives in cautious lives. And I don't think they do those things. So I would say maybe 20 and less for most people.
Nick VinZant 29:30
I think that people are a lot shittier than they would admit, I think a lot of people have probably committed that would be my guess I think most people create committed between 50 and 100 crimes.
John Shull 29:42
I'm still gonna stay I'll say between 20 and 40. About that. That's what I'll say. If you start thinking about certain things that you shouldn't have done, like maybe driving after having a few too many or things like that, then they start adding up pretty significantly.
Nick VinZant 29:57
So John and I are both in our mid to Late 30s. And drinking and driving was not what it is today when we were growing up in like teenagers and early 20s. That was one thing where we really learned as a society even more than like seatbelts, but like, well, we should stop doing that, we should really stop doing that.
John Shull 30:18
It baffles me, like you said that we probably did most of these things a while ago, but it still baffles me every time I cover something or see something of just the irresponsibility of people still driving, when they've had a few. But it was just it was just completely different. Just like 20 years before us, our parents saying, you know, is completely different. It's like every generation, it just, it's just so different.
Nick VinZant 30:44
I grew up, I'm old enough that they didn't have seatbelts or car seats. Like my mother just drove with holding me in the front seat. Like that's what people used to do. But he just held on to him while I drove. Okay, so this is our 200 and 50th episode. What is the biggest thing that you've learned in these 250? Episodes? What have you learned about me, John?
John Shull 31:06
It's funny you I was wondering that because like on iTunes, it says this will be number 252. i So but if you're saying this is Episode 250, then I will go by your record,
Nick VinZant 31:17
the count is unclear. As it seems to change, depending on which app you look at, and I didn't feel like actually counting it. So we're gonna call this 250? or what have you. What have you learned about me and those 250 episodes talking to me every single week?
John Shull 31:32
You know, you know what's funny, and I'm not going to say that I learned anything about you. But what this podcast ultimately did, for me, at least, was during what probably we could say will be the darkest time as a society that being the pandemic that will ever go through possibly. It gave me a chance to talk to one of my best friends every week of river, it provided a little light knowing every week we were going to have a conversation where we weren't talking about the pandemic or politics, or just the bad stuff, you know, and that's that's kind of what is fantastic about this podcasts. We don't we don't really talk about anything, but yet we talk about a lot of things. And it was always good to look forward to that every single week. It still is it's not like it's over. But yeah, still is.
Nick VinZant 32:19
Um, I feel like that's pretty heartfelt. I also sell Sophia like you should have learned something individually about me. I mean, I asked you a question about what you've learned about me and you turn it around how you look forward to it. So really, you made it all about yourself.
John Shull 32:31
I mean, what did I learn about you? Nothing. Okay. All right. Anyway,
Nick VinZant 32:35
let's move on.
John Shull 32:37
Alright, alright, let's give the I guess I can I guess that now everything's gonna be the 250th episode shout outs.
Nick VinZant 32:43
sure whether or not it's hard to interpret the episode is unclear, but we're just going to call this one
John Shull 32:48
we have no idea. All right, let's see. We'll start with Michael goad. Alex Kerman, Cordelia penalities. This one is a tongue twister. So I apologize. I'm about to butcher this name. Malgorzata Pickens,
Nick VinZant 33:04
what now Gore
John Shull 33:06
Malgorzata.
Nick VinZant 33:10
How do you spell it?
John Shull 33:11
Ma LGORZ A ta
Nick VinZant 33:17
Malgorzata
John Shull 33:18
at first I thought it was somebody trying to like you know, put something together to make me say a bad word or something. But then I was like no, that that's unlike any bad word I've ever heard of before. If it is. Alright, let's see Lisa Bailey. Isaac Sanchez, Ashley Tomasi, Sam Rosen, Polly kaon. And the last one, it's very heavenly. Eli heaven.
Nick VinZant 33:50
Heaven, Eli.
John Shull 33:53
No, just Eli heaven.
Nick VinZant 33:55
Well, if you reverse it, if you did last name first. It would be heaven, Elon. Sure. I mean, that's gotta be a tough name. There's so many tough names for people between the ages of like fifth grade and junior year of high school. Who haven't you go into heaven?
John Shull 34:13
You're going to spend seven minutes in heaven with Evan,
Nick VinZant 34:16
did you have one? Did you have one that people would always go with your name and be like, Hey, John.
John Shull 34:22
No, I mean, my middle name is a little funky. But no one really ever said it so
Nick VinZant 34:28
Oh, remember we were going to do this thing where every week you tried to guess what my middle name was?
John Shull 34:32
No, but I kind of do.
Nick VinZant 34:35
We did it once like a long months ago and then completely forgot about it. So let's get your let's go ahead and have a guest What do you think my middle name is?
John Shull 34:44
I feel like I got the first official right now. I forget what that is. Robert?
Nick VinZant 34:50
No. Do I look like a Robert?
John Shull 34:53
It's your middle name. It doesn't matter what your middle name is. Got a couple of banners for you. by what would you rather do on a nice evening out with yourself? Or if your wife's with you see live music, go to a movie or go to a play?
Nick VinZant 35:12
Why would I go to a play? I can't think of a See I've had a good time going to a play. But I'm certainly not going to spend money at this level level of my sophistication to go to a play. I'm gonna go to a music. That's the de facto one concerts. I'm gonna go to a concert right because you got to have a night out.
John Shull 35:31
You ever been in a mosh pit before?
Nick VinZant 35:34
No, I've been that just doesn't appeal to me in any way.
John Shull 35:38
I just I've always felt like if I was ever to get in one, someone's gonna punch me in the back of the head because I look like a punchable. Guy.
Nick VinZant 35:45
You do look like a punchable guy. Yeah, yeah. Because you're just big enough to be like, I'm gonna punch that guy. But not big enough to be like, Don't punch that guy.
John Shull 35:54
Yeah, I'm like the weird middle. Yeah,
Nick VinZant 35:56
you look like somebody people want to punch. Thanks. not agree
John Shull 36:00
with that. Alright, second question is to you. What is the last temperature that is suitable or acceptable to you for wearing a sweater? Outside? Is it 75 degrees is at 7075.
Nick VinZant 36:14
I'm not 90. No, once the temperature goes into the sixes, you can wear t shirt and shorts just like anybody else. Unless there is a strong wind coming out of the north. That is cool. Don't be wearing any kind of additional covering in the 60s. Tough it out. Right? That's what that's what annoys the hell out of me. Right? There's people be like, Oh, it's the summertime got to set it to 72. And then those same people, when it's 72 will also wear a sweatshirt outside.
John Shull 36:46
I don't know why the baby laughs but I'm not 95 I don't know why you're so
Nick VinZant 36:54
I get upset about temperatures. I get really annoyed about temperatures, mainly because of my family who'd be like it's too hot. Turn it down from 75 to 72. You can't tell the difference? Well, I've always thought it's a mindset. It's a mindset.
John Shull 37:09
I mean, you got to keep the house at 68. Absolutely not, can't be hired like well, you keep it at seven, right? 72 or whatever, you keep it at
Nick VinZant 37:19
78 in the summer, and it's going to be I would put it in a 55 If I could in the winter, you can tough it out.
John Shull 37:25
Alright, so the Twitter question today. We're doing things a little differently. I literally just picked four random topics. Okay, okay. Okay. Let's see. So the three that did not win. Bitcoin. Dark blood. Macho Man Randy Savage. So what what was,
Nick VinZant 37:47
what's dark blood?
John Shull 37:49
Apparently, it's so apparently it was a movie released in 1993. And it's part of a like a series, a book series and they're getting ready they released a trailer, because they're gonna come out with I don't know, like the second part or some of the
Nick VinZant 38:07
they're coming out with the second part. 30 years later to a movie nobody has heard of. That's gonna be a big success.
John Shull 38:14
That's, that's that's what we're hearing. I have no idea. Okay, and then the one that the thing that one actually. K pop band. AES PA.
Nick VinZant 38:28
Wait a minute. Is it initialed out? Or do you just don't know how to say the name of the band?
John Shull 38:33
No. I mean, I didn't. I didn't see it. Yeah, it's called the ESPA. Like asbel. You're right.
Nick VinZant 38:38
That's afspa Yeah.
John Shull 38:41
It's a South Korean growth girl group that consists of Karina Giselle winter and nicknamed. They popularize the metaverse concept and hyper pop in Kpop. So my first question to you is, are you familiar with Kpop?
Nick VinZant 39:00
Only that I've heard the word Kpop. I don't know any bands. I don't know any music. I don't know any of those kinds of things. And that is a realm that I have not ventured into. Nor do I have any desire to venture into that world realm.
John Shull 39:12
According to Wikipedia, to take this for what it is Kpop is the fastest growing style of music in the world.
Nick VinZant 39:23
Well, I believe it's more popular in Eastern countries. And I think that they have larger population. So it's probably the most popular thing in the world,
John Shull 39:33
apparently. And I'm sure we sound like we're winners here. BTS, and Black Pink are the most popular groups in Kpop history.
Nick VinZant 39:43
That's the nice addition that that is that could be an adjustment for us here. Do you and I are both in the United States, but we have an international audience. And we have always been at the center of culture in the United States. Like everything has really kind of come from us from Hollywood and move music, TV shows those kinds of things. Now we're not really seeing that we're starting to see things come from other places of the world. And it's really made us I think, realize how Oh, world's a really big place. Americans don't really know that.
John Shull 40:14
Yeah, actually. And once again, I guess this can be a little learning thing, if you don't own Kpop is actually started in the 1990s. And took off in the 2000s and 10s, because of social media, and the Internet, really booming and giving, you know, YouTubers and social media folks, that gets the power to, to showcase and right, all you have to do is click on a YouTube link. And here you are.
Nick VinZant 40:38
We've reached the age you and I were worth like, there's an award show. We don't know who 90% of the people are.
John Shull 40:46
I mean, I watched I watched a little bit of the New Year's Eve shows. God, you know, God saved my soul, because they're all terrible. And I, I'm pretty sure BTS was on there. And I still have no idea who they were or anyone else.
Nick VinZant 41:00
I can't think of any, like, even if I look at a website and be like, here's all the presenters for this award show like the Billboard Music Award. I don't have any idea who anymore. It reached that age. And for people who are still in that age group, probably like the young 20s, maybe 20s. It happens in a second. Like you just turn around one day and you have no idea who any celebrities are and you have no idea how this technology works. It happens in a second. I've chat GBT, I couldn't even start. I have no idea. Like, I don't even know what the website is. Is it one thing? Is it a program? Is it a website? Is it on social media app? Not a clue.
John Shull 41:35
It baffles me that. It's funny to say like, we're the age because yes, we are of that age. But then at the same point. It's also the point to where they'll go. And presenting is BTS and seal. And it's like, Oh, I know seal is I don't know, BTS is.
Nick VinZant 41:52
But seal is like the Lifetime Achievement Award guy. Nobody like we won. Okay, all right. Are you ready for our top five?
Unknown Speaker 42:02
Yes.
Nick VinZant 42:04
Okay, so this is the top five that we have done before. It's been a tradition. It was our very first top five that we ever did. We did it for our 100th episode. And now because this is our 200 and 50th episode, we're going to do it again. Top five meats. Sure. Number five.
John Shull 42:21
My number five. I'm I think I've switched it up here. But my number five is chicken.
Nick VinZant 42:27
You can't put chicken at number five. I am. You can't. I
John Shull 42:32
did I haven't I just did it. So
Nick VinZant 42:34
that's that's ridiculous. You cannot put chicken at number five. It is way too ubiquitous.
John Shull 42:39
I think I understand what you're saying. But I think when I go through my list, I think you'll understand why. I mean it's chicken is good. But I'm gonna go out and live here and say people only are fascinated or like chicken because they believe it's healthy. Or people would be eating red meat and different kinds of red meat every meal.
Nick VinZant 43:01
Chicken is way too popular to put it at number five chicken wings, chicken tenders
John Shull 43:06
so that you can't throw their argument I can make is that chicken literally had to turn into several other different kinds of things. For it to be accepted as a good meat. Just eating a chicken breast is not good. It's not good at all.
Nick VinZant 43:23
No, I would agree with that. But no, you can get some good chicken. The chicken breast is generally not very good, but you can get chicken thigh by itself is good and chicken wings by itself is good.
John Shull 43:36
Yeah, but like chicken wings are not just chicken right? They're usually breaded. They're fried sometimes, like oven baked like I'm just talking about just chicken just baked in the oven. It is not your
Nick VinZant 43:48
treat. You're treating chicken like It's turkey it's not Turkey chicken is better than Turkey Turkey I would 100% agree that it doesn't belong anywhere within even probably the top 10 It's not really very good. Chicken is not turkey.
John Shull 44:03
I'm yeah chickens. My number five I'm gonna stay with it.
Nick VinZant 44:07
Okay, my number five is sausage. I don't care what kind of sausage it is. pork sausage, beef sausage, Theresa. So whatever. If it's sausage is going in my mouth.
John Shull 44:20
I'm gonna get back to sausage in the mouth and a little bit later on in my my top five
Nick VinZant 44:26
All right, you can't go wrong with sausage you just can't my number five is sausage number four
John Shull 44:32
hamburger
Nick VinZant 44:35
isn't that beef?
John Shull 44:37
So I split them up and I only I split them up because well I'll get to beef in a little bit but hamburger to me is separate. Because yes it's beef but it's it's not like when you think of beef. You think of steak right? You think of brisket you think of those things you don't think of hamburger usually. So and hamburgers. Great right? You can obviously hamburgers, duck meatballs spaghetti. It's good. Though hamburgers a little bit like chicken like you'll usually have to spice it up a little bit for it to be really good. Like if you just have hamburger by itself with nothing in it. But hamburger still deserves bottom.
Nick VinZant 45:16
My number four is bison. It's the only fanciest fancy kind of meat that I could put on that list. None of that other stuff like duck, elk, Frog, none of that stuff is any good. But bison is pretty good. It's the only fancy meat that belongs on a top five list.
John Shull 45:36
Well, that kind of leads me into my number three. Not that these are fancy. But I have I have fish. But specifically like like seafood in general, like shrimp, mussels, clams, all encompassing seafood as my number three.
Nick VinZant 45:54
I would put imitation crab as the best kind of fish. I like imitation crab more than any other thing except for salmon, but it's way too expensive. And I'm not buying that.
John Shull 46:05
You're definitely the guy that goes to the dealer to a suit a sushi restaurant. And you get the Philly row, aren't you?
Nick VinZant 46:13
I refuse to pay more than 599 a pound for any meat. Not doing it. Nope. What's over 599 a pound. I'm not buying it with you.
John Shull 46:23
What's your number three.
Nick VinZant 46:25
I love pork. Pork is good. Pork is an incredibly underrated if it's cooked, right. Pork chops are amazing. pork sausage is incredible. But it's harder to cook. Right. But pork is my number. Okay, I love I love I love a good pork and
John Shull 46:44
I don't have pork on my list. I'm not a big fan of pork like that. I do have I do have something like that coming up, but it's not. Pork is I left off. Pork loin pork chops. No, no, no good.
Nick VinZant 47:00
Are pork rinds made of pork?
John Shull 47:03
Probably not. I'm gonna say no, but I don't know the answer to that.
Nick VinZant 47:07
What do you think that pork rinds are made of?
John Shull 47:12
Or it's the skin right? Is it? Is that the skin of a pig or something?
Nick VinZant 47:17
Not to find out? Oh, it's deep fried pigskin.
John Shull 47:20
Yeah. See?
Nick VinZant 47:22
That's one of those things that like if people from another world, or if people from the past or people from the future came to visit and be like, what were you eating? Oh, it's deep fried pigskin. Yeah. Wait Is pigs or pork? Is that? Pig is pork?
John Shull 47:41
I think so. I believe so.
Nick VinZant 47:43
It's not ham. I always get that confused. How can one animal provide so many different kinds of meat?
John Shull 47:50
Because they're 1000 pounds?
Nick VinZant 47:52
Pig is not 8000 pounds?
John Shull 47:54
Yeah, no, it's pork is the culinary name for the meat of a pig.
Nick VinZant 48:01
Then why is ham different than pork? I got it. We decided that this is ham and this is poor.
John Shull 48:09
You're asking the wrong guy. It's ham is pork from a leg cut.
Nick VinZant 48:16
Okay, all right. Okay,
John Shull 48:18
gross. All right. So my notes my number two and one are interchangeable. But I give number one a little bit of an edge, but we'll get to that. So my number two is beef like steak. You know, brisket, things like that. Like just, man. Nothing's better than a good steak sometimes.
Nick VinZant 48:37
Yeah, my number two is beef as well. I think it's the best meat but it's just not quite as versatile economic or healthy isn't the number one. Which mine number one is chicken. Okay, I mean, I think it has to be chicken. I don't think there's any discussion about it. It's chicken
John Shull 48:57
CNI. That's where we beg to differ my friend. My number one is cured pork. And by that I mean sausage, bacon. Guy. I mean, I could go on and prosciutto salami.
Nick VinZant 49:15
Bacon is pretty good. But see, that's where I don't think that it should be number one because you can't really just eat that. Like, you can't just live off bacon without having some issues, right? Like if you were just eating bacon and sausage every morning. It's not going to be a lot of mornings.
John Shull 49:34
I mean, have you? I will say one of my top five foods is charcuterie boards. I mean, those are the best you get all the different kinds of cured meats and cheeses and a man put me in heaven.
Nick VinZant 49:51
Ah, okay, that's gonna go ahead and do it for this episode of Profoundly Pointless. I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, please eviscerating or review doesn't have to be anything big. Just a couple of quick words. And I think that we're going to be saying that this is our 200 and 50th episode for a couple of episodes, just to see if people catch on to the joke. And let us know what you think are some of the best meats. There's no way that chicken is number five, right? The chicken is just way too prevalent. Maybe it's not the best tasting, but it is it is a utility player that deserves to be much higher than number five