From King of the Hill and Tacoma FD to Wilfred, Maron and Rules of Engagement, Screenwriter Michael Jamin has worked on some of Hollywood’s most recognizable sitcoms. We talk how to become a screenwriter, what it’s really like in a writer’s room and the future of television. Then, we countdown the Top 5 Scariest Things in Life.

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Interview with Screenwriter Michael Jamin

Nick VinZant 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to Profoundly Pointless. My name is Nick VinZant Coming up in this episode, screenwriting, and this scariest things in life,

Michael Jamin 0:23

the first one is the hardest. You can't get an agent without a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot of a hustling that I started out as a production assistant. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. I think a better question to ask is, how do I write a script? That's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth.

Nick VinZant 0:48

I want to thank you so much for joining us. If you get a chance, like, download, subscribe, share, we really appreciate it really helps us out. So our first guest writes the stuff you see on TV, everything from King of the Hill, and Tacoma FD to Marin, Wilfred, rules of engagement. He's been a writer on some of Hollywood's most recognizable sitcoms. This is screenwriter Michael Jackson. So obviously, once you get established in the industry, you kind of get jobs off your reputation. But how do you get that first job as a TV writer?

Michael Jamin 1:25

Yeah, that's the first one is the hardest, you can't get an agent got a job and you can't get a job without an agent. And so a lot about hustling that. I started as a production assistant, on on TV shows, you know, so I was basically a golfer, I would do whatever the boss wanted me to do. And after doing that for a couple of years, you know, I was I was able to say, Hey, can I pitch you an idea for a show? And they're like, you know, that's a that's a very tentative thing to do. Because, you know, you're, you're, that's not why you're hired. But I had really great bosses. And my partner had a writing partner, and we sold they were they were running a show called Lois and Clark, which was the Superman show that with Dean came in geriatric. And so that was they bought an episode of that. And that was my that was my first kind of big break.

Nick VinZant 2:08

When somebody is a TV writer, or a writer for any kind of thing. Are you writing the entire episode slash series? Are you like, Alright, I'm a TV writer. I wrote this one joke in a sitcom. Oh, no.

Michael Jamin 2:20

How does that work? Yeah, you want your you want to be a staff writer, you want to be on staff of a TV show, and a TV show might have like a sitcom I'd have anywhere between, on average, eight or 10. Writers. And you work as a group and you come up with ideas, you flesh them out into stories. And once it's all fleshed out, one writer, or a team of writers will go off and write that episode. So they'll be responsible for writing an outline, that a first draft, maybe a second draft, and the second draft will come back to the writers room. And all the writers work together to rewrite it to kind of quality control it so that you can ever tell one episode of television is written by one writer versus another right? It's kind of it's like, as a viewer watching at home when they go, Oh, this is just an average episode of TV that I might have my favorite show or whatever. And then there's the head writer, the head writer kind of is in charge of basically determine what gets into the script, but doesn't wander the show ideas but what gets made what doesn't. And he or she's is the boss. So that's the that's we call that the showrunner. So in TV, the showrunner is the boss, the show the director answers to the showrunner with the writers answer to the show, what are the actors? You know, I guess they want they want to get the show into the performance that the that the showrunner wants, so he or she is the boss. So it kind

Nick VinZant 3:29

of sounds a little bit like a group project. But somebody puts their name on it at the end?

Michael Jamin 3:34

Yeah, one writers is,

Nick VinZant 3:35

yeah, does most of the heavy lifting. Now is everybody in a room before COVID.

Michael Jamin 3:39

But you were literally in a writers room and you'd be on a sitcom, you'd be stuck in a room with these writers for at least 12 hours a day, sometimes much longer. These writers rooms, the ones I've worked in, are some of the funniest people you've ever met. I mean, these are the best of the best. And so, you know, you can be howling with laughter You spend your whole day just howling with laughter if you're doing your job, right. If you're not, there's a lot of silence, and a lot of when are we gonna get out of here? But yeah, it's collaborative. With that

Nick VinZant 4:07

kind of an effort though. Like how come some come some TV shows? They just they they don't work?

Michael Jamin 4:12

Yeah, right. Well, some of that's due to who the showrunner is who the boss is, some of it's because the network is gives a lot of notes, they have involvement. Sometimes you have an actor who's a big star who won't do something they want to do what they want to do. So there's a you know, it's it's like, everyone wants to say every everyone that I read a kind of umbrella guy named Charlie Hawk wrote a book about this in his analogy, he was a sitcom writer, his analogy was perfect. And he said, it's like, everyone wants to have a hit show. And it's like being in a lifeboat in a rowboat, and you're trying to get the same direction, but everywhere, everyone's wrong in a different direction. The actor is going this way. And the stars going into the showrunner this way and the writers in the network. And so it's like, if you can't get that boat moving in the same direction. It's a real problem. But every One has an ego and everyone, so and everyone has a different wants and needs. So

Nick VinZant 5:03

for you, when you sit down to write something like what's your process?

Michael Jamin 5:09

Well, I write, I write with a writing partner most of the time. So for television show, so we'll come up if it really depends if it's a show, it's on the air for to refer to, if we have a pilot that we're trying to sell, you know, that's a different thing. But it's usually coming up with, if we're on a staff of a TV show, the first thing you have to do is figure out, you have to break the story, you have to figure out what the story is about. And you go to a whiteboard. And you have Act One, act two, act three, and the writers will all pitch well, but what if it starts with what if? And then the showrunner will side of that idea has enough meat on its bones? And then if it does, you start fleshing it out a little bit. And that just coming up with the idea, and and seeing if there's enough meat on the bones that can easily take three to five days before before one word is written,

Nick VinZant 5:52

how then how long would it take to write an episode like, okay, from the start the conception of the idea to the very end, right? Not obviously, for the episode to air, but like this is written and done,

Michael Jamin 6:03

it can easily take from the from the beginning, when someone first has raised their hand and says, I have an idea to when you start shooting, activate, you actually start shooting the episode, it can easily be six weeks, then yeah, it's about quality control. It's about making sure every this story actually works. And that every line is as funny as it can be. And it's a lot of rehearsal, there's a lot of rewriting a 90% of writing is rewriting. So it's really about making sure it works.

Nick VinZant 6:29

Do you kind of when you write something, do you wait for inspiration? Or do you have a time like, alright, nine o'clock, sitting down, and something's coming out,

Michael Jamin 6:37

if you wait for inspiration, you will go hungry? Because I get paid, per episode produced. And a point if like, I can't sell the network, you know, inspiration didn't strike this week, let's just air color bars instead of the TV show. You know, that's not an acceptable answer. So there's no such thing as writer's block or waiting for inspiration. You have to, it's a job you have to you have to make your episode of television. So you fall back on your skills, and you fall back on on your training to get that episode done.

Nick VinZant 7:05

Is whenever you're talking about something creative, though, like that, is it something can you learn to do it? Or is it like you either got it? Or you don't? Right? Because I wouldn't think that people can learn to be funny. You're either funny, or you're not? Yeah, but

Michael Jamin 7:18

you can learn to be funnier. So you're right, you have to be funny, but you can learn to be funny, or you can hone your craft, you know, like, I'm definitely much better writer than it was 26 years ago when I broke in. But I remember, I was working on a show called King of the Hill, as a writer, you know, back in 2001. And the planes flew into the World Trade Center. And all those that tragedy was horrible, because people died was just horrific. And we didn't go to work that day, because everyone thought you into the pot, the country is coming apart. But the next day, we had to go to work. And we had to write comedy. And I assure you, none of the writers were in any mood to write comedy for that day, that week, or that month, or even subsequent like, it just felt wrong and disrespectful. So felt sacrilegious. So many people had died. And we knew that the world had changed, like no one wanted to write comedy. But we all had to because that's the job. And so, you know, you fall back on your training to make to write me a computer instead of someone would pitch a joke, and no one would laugh, but someone would say okay, yeah, that's funny, we could do that. It was very somber. Yeah, that's a good idea. We can do that. And now when you look back at those episodes that we shot, back, then I don't think you'd know, you would realize it was shot during a time of national grief and mourning. You just wouldn't.

Nick VinZant 8:28

Is it when you write something? Obviously, it's different. If you're talking about you know, you're in your second or third or fourth season or whatever. But are you generally do you know who you're writing it for? Like, I'm writing this for this actor?

Michael Jamin 8:41

Yeah, I mean it but if it's a pilot that we're selling, we have an actor in mind. But it that's really just to get a voice. So you're thinking, Okay, what's this is what the voice is what the character is, like, when it comes to casting more often than not far more often that you're not going to get that actor you had in mind. There's an audition process and everyone involved has a say, and, and so once you cast the actor that you get, who's close enough to that part, then the role will the role naturally start changing if it goes to series because you start writing to the actors strengths, and you steer away from their weaknesses. So that'll definitely change

Nick VinZant 9:17

kind of brought this up a little bit earlier. But I think the question that everybody wonders is like, how much do you get paid?

Michael Jamin 9:23

Enough? It depends on it. Honestly, it depends on your level. So staff writers, the lowest level and then it goes all the way up to co executive producer and executive producer that's in TV that's the highest level then the the showrunners kind of like executive producer and the creator. So there are Writers Guild, the Writers Guild that sets the minimums and that will change whether you're doing a half hour show an hour long show cable streaming network every there's different rates. It's a falls in a whole different range. And you I get paid per episode produced. So if the show is doing 22 episodes, I make a lot of money. If the show is only eight episodes on on cable, that's obviously a lot less money. So it just depends.

Nick VinZant 10:07

And then residuals like, how does that work? Because you get continued to get paid, right?

Michael Jamin 10:11

If the show sells somewhere like they start, you know, yeah, if it's if it reruns somewhere, and the writer of that episode, we get paid a residual. And that also is negotiated by the Writers Guild. And so it's standard across the board. So I don't have to say, hey, you know, this show, it's not like, the writers on friends will get more money in residuals than writers on some show you never heard of, it's just that their episodes will air more often. And so though that great, will it keep? You know, okay, well keep getting a check more often. But the actual amount is the same.

Nick VinZant 10:45

Our most writers struggling or if you've got like a good, or you do you do pretty well,

Michael Jamin 10:51

it, you know, it, it's gotten harder over the years, because the series orders have gotten shorter. So if you're working on a show that only does eight episodes, a season, that's a lot harder to make a living than one that would do 22 episodes. So when I broke into the business, there were four networks, there's ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox, basically, and some smaller cable channels. And so it was, I think it was easier than to make a living than is now because you could be on a hit show now, but it only does eight episodes a season. Right? You could be on Barry, which is on HBO, I don't know. Maybe they do 10 or something hit show, but they're not working that much. So once you get off that shit, so you have to, you have to hopefully sell a pilot in between or maybe pick up another job in between that, that the schedule is aligned so that you can go back to your hit show.

Nick VinZant 11:37

I'm fascinated by logistics. And when I look at places like all the streaming services, like are there enough writers to write all this stuff?

Michael Jamin 11:45

There are bad in Hollywood, the number of working writers, his soul is just a little bit more than the number of active players in the NFL. Okay, so it's about the same, maybe a little bit more. It's in the 1000s. But yeah, it's it's not a ton of it's very competitive. Yeah.

Nick VinZant 12:04

But why is it? Why is it still that competitive win for me for somebody looking on the outside is like MIT, there's 1000s of shows on each one of these streaming platforms? And like, why is it still so competitive? When it seems like we got it? What are the math there doesn't seem to work out right 1000s of shows eight to 10 people.

Michael Jamin 12:22

But ya know, if it's a smaller show, so my partner and I ran a show called Marin on IFC, which is critical. Not many people saw it as critically, the critics loved it. But the first seat it was a low budget show, the first season, there are only four of us as writers, only four writers, me and my partner, the star of the show, Mark Marin, and one of the young staff writer. And so it's not a lot of people, as the show, as the show progressed over the year of the couple of the seasons, we had four seasons, we added more writers, but okay, you can remember. So I'm talking about working writers at any given time. So if you're, if your shows on the or you're working, you know, if you're shooting at your shows on the air, but then it wraps, and now you're not a working writer anymore. Now you have to become working, right? So there's all these shows, but they're not like, they're not working all around around the clock. They're not, you know, around this around the year,

Nick VinZant 13:06

like what's the percentage of people who would try to do this and fail?

Michael Jamin 13:12

Well, you know, breaking into how they was one thing, making a career out of it is quite another. So there are definitely writers who, who break in and they're on a show, then they flame out. They never work again. That's not uncommon. Or they work out, they flee and they work again, another five years later, it's just you know, it's so to make a career out of it. It's like to me, I'm like, I'm the that football player in the NFL. Wow, that guy is still playing good for him. It's been kicking around that, you know, that guy. Wow. Okay, I thought he was gonna him. He's still around. Okay.

Nick VinZant 13:45

How come people don't last right? Are they just relying on like a confluence of events to be a good job, or they just only have so many certain ideas or how come you know,

Michael Jamin 13:54

sometimes it's a talent, sometimes it's just not good enough to last sometimes it's a that's just the way the luck will be like breaks. Like if you get on a hit show, and you work for 10 years blue, good for you, you know, but as a young staff writer, and you break into a show, and it goes for 10 years, you got it made, but you could also break onto a show that that only goes like three episodes before getting cancelled. And that's that's the way the cookie crumbles. And the fact that the show is a hit, when you're young writer, you really have very little say over the show becomes a hit or a giant failure. You're You're too young and inexperienced, you don't really have that kind of control. You're just trying to keep up and learn. And so a lot of that is luck.

Nick VinZant 14:33

Obviously, you don't have to name names or anything like that. But can you think of people in your experience that you would say like, you know, they were a great writer and things just didn't work out for them?

Michael Jamin 14:41

Yeah, that definitely happens and I can think of people who are not great writers and things didn't work out for them. So there's a little bit of ball

Nick VinZant 14:48

um, we got a bunch of listener submitted questions. So are you ready for some harder slash listener submitted question?

Michael Jamin 14:54

All right, listeners see what you can do.

Nick VinZant 14:56

Show you knew that would be a hit show you knew would be A bus show you weren't sure of.

Michael Jamin 15:02

I was. Yeah, I knew my, when I read this pilot episode of Modern Family, oh, that's going to be a hit. I loved it. I love just loved it. And that was written by Steven Levitan, who my partner and I worked for, just shoot me. So he created just shoot me. And then we read the pilot script from our family, we were at the time, my partner Ray, we're running a show called Glenmark, DDS on Nick at Night. And so that was kind of a big step for us. Because we were, we were the bosses and we had seen if you saw the script for Modern Family Law, that's going to be ahead. But I mean, I really should, you had to take that back, I knew it was going to be a good show, I didn't know is going to be a hit. Because there's just so many things that are outside of the control of of the show, you know, the the quality script was good. I didn't know that they were going to get the great actors, that sometimes doesn't happen. Sometimes the cast doesn't gel. And sometimes the network will put it on a bad time slot or won't, they won't let allow the show to grow long enough to allow it to become a head sometimes they get canceled. Sometimes good shows get cancelled before they could become a hit. So, but it became a hit.

Nick VinZant 16:03

Any show that you knew like that this this, this is a show that you were working on?

Michael Jamin 16:08

Yeah, like, absolutely. And I've done some of those. And I got this is not going to be a hit. But the job worked out well in terms of my schedule. And so I got we, my partner had, we had one job, and then the show wrapped and we had some time before it came up again. And so we had this big break in our schedule, and we go okay, this is good. You can this is we can make some money here. Even though the show is not going to be a hit doesn't matter. I can you know, I get paid to be to write, so I'm going to write on it.

Nick VinZant 16:34

Any show that you were on that you just had no idea. Like this could go either way.

Michael Jamin 16:40

Um, that's kind of every show because most of it like I said, it's one thing to make a good show and it's something for it become a hit. So I worked. We worked on a show called out of practice, which was on CBS was a sitcom with starring Henry Winkler Ty Burrell. Before he was Phil on Modern Family, stocker Channing and Chris Gorham and Paula Marshall, it was a great cast. And the head writers were joking and Chris Lloyd, to Chris ran Frazier for many, many years. incredibly, incredibly talented writer, Joe as well, like the writing staff was like the opposite. It was the fact that we were chosen for this, to be hired to this writing staff was kind of an honor because it was an all star, they could choose anybody. It was an all star team to be on the show. And I thought the show was excellent. It was really funny. A lot of heart. The network just it didn't give it enough chance to grow the numbers. And so as I thought it was canceled way before its time, and it was a shame, but it could have gone either way. Excellent show that no one really saw.

Nick VinZant 17:43

favorite character you've ever written for?

Michael Jamin 17:47

Oh, you know, I've written I can't say a favorite character. I really can't that would be insulting. I love writing for Nina Van Horn I just shoot me but also David Spade I've written for him on two different shows. Just Shoot Me and and rules of engagement as a writer on that as well. But Mark marron she's, you know, he was an amazing, amazing character and brave. I like writing, we like writing for stand ups, because they're very, they tend to be very brave. And they'll like, as long as he gets a laugh, they're like, I'll do that they're not too worried about their image. Whereas actors might kind of think, well, I don't want people to think that about me, but stand up. So like, I'll do it. So he was a pleasure to write for for four years. But there's so much I'm just I'm singling out like, there's so many. The show I'm currently working on is Tacoma, FD. And the guys who are the actors, Kevin Hefner, and Steve Lemmy. They're the stars, but also the head writers of the show and their pleasure. They're just a pleasure to work for and write for, and they're in the writers room the whole time, and you pitch them a joke or story idea. And you say, say this, that what would happen if you say, and they'll say, oh, that's hilarious. And you're actually the actors actually saying, you know, this is going to work because you're the star and I can tell it's going to work because you just set it. So that's, that's a pleasure, too.

Nick VinZant 19:02

We don't we don't get into politics on this show. And we'll try to have this conversation, I guess, without getting into politics, necessarily. But when you see kind of the Kancil culture that's coming about, right, do you when he as a rider, like do you take that into account? Would you say like, oh, we can't do that? Because this might happen? Or do you purposely like Go for

Michael Jamin 19:23

it? Yeah, no, there's there's much more sensitivity now in terms of, you know, hurt hurting people, you know, he never he never really wanted to hurt people. But when we when we started off, on just shoot me years ago, the rule of thumb was in the writers room, you could say anything you wanted, even no matter how offensive it was, as long as it was funny, as long as it got a laugh in the room in the writers room. And that was kind of the role and then then now we're a little more sensitive, you don't want to hurt people and that's kind of a little more awareness. Yeah, so it's a balancing act. You know, you don't you definitely won't hurt people but you also want to entertain

Nick VinZant 19:59

kind of one of theirs. Like if everybody goes, Oh, I don't know, then yeah,

Michael Jamin 20:02

like, right. Yeah. But I'm not going to worry about the wackos out there.

Nick VinZant 20:07

Hardest season to write. I think what this person means is in terms of like, alright, so you have a show that runs for five seasons like which one of those is the hardest season? Like the first one? The last one? The?

Michael Jamin 20:18

Yeah, the first one can be the most the most difficult because you get a lot into first the writers are still trying to find the show. The first step is you're like, Well, what is the show what you know, and also what dynamics are working within the between the characters. And until you find that you can be flailing and you get also the network is worried it's a big investment, these shows cost a lot of money. So that network wants to protect their investment, you got a lot of interference, but once the show, finds its legs and finds its audience and the network feels Oh, okay, we can calm down. Now we know it's working, things tend to get a little easier.

Nick VinZant 20:51

You know, I always hear these things about right like the network, the boss's the man, that kind of thing. All over the place. When they have notes or criticisms of shows, do you generally understand where they're coming from? Or people like what?

Michael Jamin 21:05

No, is the notes tend to be very similar. And the notes, if they can't, it's not like the network. These executives know how to do your job they have, they have a job, they know how to do their job, but they don't know how to do my job because they're not writers. So a lot of times they want reassurance, they just want to know that the show is in good hands. And if you can, they have an objection. And if you can explain it, then they go, Okay, I see your point. Sometimes their notes are valid, and you go okay, I don't really think about that. Let me rethink the episode and, and we can address your notes or at least addressed the spirit of the note. But usually it's well intentioned. It's not like they're trying to they're not trying to be jerks. You know, they're trying to help.

Nick VinZant 21:42

Best written TV show currently. And if it's one of yours, say it's one of yours.

Michael Jamin 21:46

Oh, well, that's written TV show. Well, I don't know. But currently, I thought I thought fleabag was a masterpiece. And you know, that was a couple years ago, but I thought it was beautifully written and it felt to me that very much like a like a stage play. And of course it was it was based on a stage play. So I just thought, Phoebe Waller bridge. I think she's an amazingly gifted writer made and talented, accurate, and she's a force. So that's my number one. But there's a lot out there that I love. I think Handmaid's Tale is brilliant. That's not a comedy, of course. But I just think it's cheesy. I think it's brilliant.

Nick VinZant 22:18

The show that you would look at though and say like, that's all time. This is the best written show from a writing perspective.

Michael Jamin 22:27

I remember as a kid I wanted to write on Cheers. I thought that was cheers is a brilliant show. I loved it. I always felt it had a lot of heart and a lot of warmth and felt like these. They were family, these characters were like, you just want to hang out with them. To me, that's the pinnacle. And I so I aspire to be writer and cheers. And then I finally moved out to Hollywood. And I started working. And then when I got on out of practice that I was talking about that was written on. We filmed that in the same soundstage on paramount at Paramount that cheers was filmed on, and I Oh, I made it, but I'm just 10 years too late, but I made it. I got here. So and I worked with and I've written. I've worked on some shows with many of those writers x, right, the people who wrote on chairs, and I've since written with them, and I was so cool on the top man, I get to hang out with these guys.

Nick VinZant 23:11

This kind of leads us into this one favorite experience as a writer

Michael Jamin 23:16

might have been just shoot me because that was my first job. And I was like, Wow, I'm here. I did it. This was my childhood dream. And I made it. And so that was very exciting. But my partner I also ran show, which I mentioned, Glenn Martin, DDS and also mer, and that was our first time running a show where you're the boss. And that was a great experience, because then you're really you have more creative control. And you also feel like, wow, I made it on the boss. But even but now I'm not like I don't have the same desire. Like I gotta be the boss. I'm like, oh, no, I've been the boss. I'm okay. I'm okay. Not being the boss to that's fine. There's plenty to be, you know, you don't have the same stress. So that's good.

Nick VinZant 23:52

These are some of the more lighthearted ones are. Our audience is very light hearted. They're smart. They're very light hearted, good. Um, are writers out of ideas?

Michael Jamin 24:02

No, no, we're not. That's no, we're not out of ideas. There's plenty of ideas, ideas, Hollywood tends to choose, you may think that we're out of ideas, because why they keep on why are they making Rocky 10? Why are they making only Avengers movies? And it's because those ideas are much easier to market. And so it's a business. So there's plenty of ideas, the question, the ones that get made are the ones that that Hollywood that would protect their investment feels like, we can sell this idea it's easy to market, we don't have to take a giant risk. They don't want to you know, it's a business, they want to make money, they want to minimize their losses. So I get that so we're not out of ideas, but it may seem that way. And I understand why you think we are

Nick VinZant 24:41

is but how come like is that way in pretty much every sitcom right? They're gonna have kind of the staple of the episodes. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but like, where this character has this happened to them. Like there's always kind of the same general theme. Is that because that's the natural evolution of their care. Are the writers like, hey, we know this works do this,

Michael Jamin 25:03

you know, shows her sitcoms particularly are about relationships. So if you have a core five characters that you're going to hit all those different dynamics, and then when you run out of those relationships to explore, sometimes you'll, you'll create an arc you'll create Yo, this character will okay the what if these two characters break up? What if they get together? Now let's do a whole season where they're dating, what is this character goes to night school? Okay, now we have all these ideas to do. So that's what we have arcs to kind of open it up a little bit. But in terms of, you know, it's, I guess, is the best way I can answer that question, really. So I don't really feel like it's the same thing over and over again, if you find something that works, that dynamic that works. Like, for example, we're on just shoot me, when we discover that George Segal and David Spade were magic together, let's just keep putting them in scenes together, because they're always funny together. So there's that if something works, let's keep doing why are we going to do something worse? Why break it?

Nick VinZant 25:57

I know, this is kind of a very broad question. But in general, like, how much did the actors change the writing?

Michael Jamin 26:03

Um, it depends if how, if you have an actor who's also an executive producer on the show, which happens sometimes, then you can pitch them an idea. And if they don't want to do it, they're not doing it. Well. First, you can never make an actress. You can't literally put words in their mouth, if they don't want to say a line. They're human beings are not going to say it right. So hopefully, the you can build trust with them. And they'll bow though, you know, understand that it's, it's a partnership. But a good actor, or a great actor will surprise you with her line readings. And you Oh, wow, you just made it better than I imagined. You know, in our mind, we think of one thing, but I've worked with so many actors who are just like, I was not, I did not expect you to say it like that. And it's better than I imagined. So a great actor can do that. Catherine O'Hara, we wrote for her and Glenn Martin, DDS, and Kevin Nealon, Judy Greer, they're all like that. They're all like, man, you just made my work so much better.

Nick VinZant 26:53

There's obviously the reverse of that, though. Yes,

Michael Jamin 26:55

there's definitely the reverse. And then you try to write, you know, you steer away from you know, okay, that actor does not play that color very well. Are they can they weep? I know, they can't hit that line without seeming without making it sound kind of mean. So you just write away from that. That's part of learning who these people are and being aware of their abilities.

Nick VinZant 27:16

This is, this is the same person who asked this question to all of our guests, no matter how they who they are, whatever their thing is, how do you feel about Game of Thrones season eight?

Michael Jamin 27:26

Okay, I will tell you that. So I loved Game of Thrones. And I thought it was wonderful. And here's what I have to say about season eight. also wonderful. Thank you. You don't know how hard this job is to create, to you know, to make this show work. It was a giant production. And I thought, Hey, I was happy with it. I thought it was I loved I loved it just as much. And I have a great appreciation for the amount of work that went into it. And I'm not going to bad now that I'm that's crazy. Oh, I could do better. That's nuts, then do better. When people say that okay, then do better. Go ahead. Better.

Nick VinZant 28:03

It's so weird how public perception changes something because I was I'm a huge Game of Thrones fans. This album, see isn't me asking this question. But I don't know it just suddenly kind of like, as it was it,

Michael Jamin 28:16

your intent was for it. And you're entitled to your opinion. But I do I do get it rubs me the wrong way. And people say, Oh, I can do better. Well then do better. Let's see it

Nick VinZant 28:26

from okay. And slightly. Maybe I can ask you this question. From a writer's perspective. Was that always going to be it? Right? Like when you talk about season finales and using Game of Thrones as an example? Was that always how this was naturally going to end?

Michael Jamin 28:42

No, I'm sure if it I'm sure not. I mean, there's no way you could plan season two episode one or a season because you might get cancelled anytime between now and season eight or whatever, there's no way you can map out that arc. That's just too crazy. And yes, they had source material to work from the books. So that made of course, you know, easier. But, you know, I'm sure the writers on that show were they were they wanted to surprise they want to come up with an ending I was surprised that would not be predictable. It's hard. It's like well, where's that balancing out? How do you give the how do you give the audience what they want without giving them what they want? Because if you do they're going to be disappointed as well. You know,

Nick VinZant 29:17

yeah, that's kind of what I mean in that sense is like no matter what they did, it wasn't gonna be Yeah, and always gonna be like me The Sopranos

Michael Jamin 29:25

are the same thing brilliant show and then go to Tony die at the end or not. I was like, Well you know, right. If you if you give the audience what they want they're gonna be mad either way. So you try to surprise them breaking bad I don't believe fell into that trap. I think they I think every single episode of that it in my opinion, it was as if it was written on a clay tablet and and handed to them from God. It's like how did what amazing writing team to be able to do that? And so yeah, that ending felt very satisfying to me and surprising, but okay, it could have gone it could have gone the other way just as well and I still would have loved the show.

Nick VinZant 29:59

Do you Do you listen to that as a writer? No, just like, No, I

Michael Jamin 30:03

don't. I don't I try not to listen to. I try to listen to reviews. If you listen to the good, this isn't obviously everyone says, if you take the good reviews, you have to take the bad ones and I refuse to take either. So I don't. I write for myself, and to make a living for my family. And because it provides me with creative joy, to live that kind of lifestyle. And so, if you like it great if you don't like it, I'm not doing it for you.

Nick VinZant 30:26

But you worked on Beavis and Butthead, who was the better character Beavis or butthead?

Michael Jamin 30:31

No, man. They're a team and there's it's called Beavis and Butthead. You can't have one without the other. You need both.

Nick VinZant 30:39

I think trying to bring that back. They're always

Michael Jamin 30:41

trying to bring it back. I think, you know, there's always talking about bringing it back.

Nick VinZant 30:45

Michael Jordan of TV writing,

Michael Jamin 30:47

there are certain who is? Well, yeah, I guess you'd have to say, the Michael Jordan of sitcom writing. You know, I would say Chris Lloyd is definitely up there. You know, there's so many writers who are just like, Man, this this person, you know, and to work with those people. You know, Michael Jordan makes everyone on his team better. Michael Jordan cannot win a championship without the for the people on the on the floor. We know he'll admit that. Right. So he's now a one against five. So to work with people like that, you know, and I only just mentioned Chris lead, because he's because he's kind of well known. And Steve Levitan as well is also extremely bright and very talented. But I've worked with other writers who you haven't heard of who are like we talked about who are incredibly gifted, but haven't reached that level of success because of luck. Who are and I can I've learned from all of them.

Nick VinZant 31:39

What advice would you give to somebody who feels that their stuff is good, but just can't break through?

Michael Jamin 31:48

Yeah, I It's funny cuz I, I mentioned shortly I post every day I've been doing this but for months, I post writing advice on on social media. Like how to be better how to write how to break into the business, how to be an actor ahead as a director, and you can find it on pretty much any platform at Michael jamman. Writer. So Instagram for sure. And Facebook and Tik Tok, but it's that I get that question a lot. And in the people say, Well, how do I? How do I get my script into the right hands? And I don't think that's a good question to ask, I think the better question to ask is, because it takes the power away from you. You're saying, My, I have a great script, and it has to get into the right hands, but you don't have the right hands? And you don't have the right how do I find the person with the right hands. And it takes all the responsibility and blame out of view the writer and puts the blame on the person with the hands? And that's a cop out? I think a better question to ask is How do I write a script that's so good, it doesn't matter whose hands it falls into. And that's the damn truth. Because if you write a great script, and you give it to somebody who's someone who knows someone who knows someone in the business, and everyone knows someone who knows someone, right, and that person reads it, and they go, Wow, this is a great script, I'm gonna pass it along the line I'm gonna give to somebody else who is a little closer in the business, not because not because I want to help you, who cares about you, I'm going to pass it along, because it helps me because if I give that script to someone, that person who's closer to business, I'll look like a star to them, because they need good scripts. And if I give them something they want, now I look at me now I'm now I'm a boss, right. And the same thing now that person reads the script and they go, Wow, this is a really good script, I can't do anything with it. Sorry, I can't do this is a really nice, I got cut off. This is a really great script. I can't do anything with it. But But I know someone who knows someone, and they can do something, and maybe an agent or a manager. And that's how the script gets passed up further and further along the line. Until finally gets into the person who says I can't this is a true, I can't pay you for this script. I can't use this script. But I have a project that I'm working on. And and I need you to write it. Because you have something that I need. You have talent and knew how to write a great script. And so and then that now you're now they want to exploit you. Now instead of you begging to get work, they're begging you to be exploited. I want to pay you because you have something I need talent and ability. That's how you do it. But no one ever asked that question. Because it's it requires work. And it requires the ability to okay, I want to learn everyone. And this includes me when I broke in. I was like, here's the script, can someone just give me a lot of money for it doesn't work that way. You know, it's too easy. So the better question is, how do I write a script that's so good. Doesn't matter whose hands it falls into that requires learning your craft writing all the time studying, listening to people like me, I'm not the only one on social media who talks of finding a good teacher, a teacher who knows what the hell they're talking about. There's plenty of teachers who don't but and that requires commitment of time and investment in your own energy of investment of energy and often money because you have to learn. So that's what I recommend. Oh, why don't you weren't expecting a lecture, but you got one.

Nick VinZant 34:54

One of our questions actually was like, give us your best TV writing grant, that was it. That's it, man, that might have been it. Um, I guess on the other side of that, that kind of plays along with it, you know, squid game is the super popular thing right now. How do you kind of know like that Right? Or the big thing was like he went 10 years everybody telling him this is crap, this is crap, this is crap. How do you know when to stick to your guns? Or to really like, oh, maybe this really is crap.

Michael Jamin 35:26

And I don't and I know, that's true. But I don't know the rest of the story of his career. Um,

Nick VinZant 35:30

I don't I don't have know anything else about it. Either.

Michael Jamin 35:32

I imagined he had this great idea for a show and he's trying to sell it. But in the meantime, he was trying to do other work I imagined, okay, I can also come up with another script, or I'm gonna try to write in this show or that show. Like, it's not like you just put all your eggs in one basket. You know, you kind of I think that would be foolish. You want to continue, okay, I wrote something great. Maybe I can't find the right market for it. But I'm like, write something else and write something else and something. So you have to continue writing. And I again, the first scripts that I wrote 26 years ago, I thought were great. I thought they were great, right? But now when I look at him, I cringe because I see how much I've grown as a writer over the years. And that's all I've only grown because I've continued writing. It's not because I was hanging desperately on to this one script that I wrote. So write it, put it aside, write something else.

Nick VinZant 36:16

Um, that's really all the questions I got, man, anything you think that we missed? Or what's kind of coming up next for you?

Michael Jamin 36:22

Uh, yeah, so I go back to as a writer, co executive producer, and Tacoma FD that starts probably, I'm thinking in January, my partner, I have a couple of pilots that we sold that we're currently writing. So that's good. And by the way, when you sell a pilot doesn't mean it's gonna be gone here, it means they've paid you to write a pilot script. And then there's, once they there's that you get to that step. And then maybe if they like it, maybe they shoot it. And if they shoot it, maybe they put it on the air. So there's a lot of maybes between now and then. So that's the word that's the life of a writer. Well, I'm happy that we saw this, we get to write it. So there's that. And again, like I talked about, I, I and I'm working on a collection of personal essays that I'm hoping to publish soon. And so that's what's next for me. And I also, like I said it post every day, this started during the pandemic, I had a friend who was begging, want to break into the business. And he's like I am and I used to talk to him, you know, but he I read a script and I couldn't help. And he said, You got to make a course. I'm like, Dude, I don't have time to make a course. You got to do it. And then pandemic hit and shut everything down. So I was literally had nothing to do for the first six months, the band had nothing to do. There's nothing going on in my career in Hollywood, everything was shut down, everyone is hunkered in their homes. And so that's when I made this course. And if any, any of your listeners want to want to check it out, they can learn more about that Michael Jackson comm slash course. And I also post just for fun on Instagram and tick tock and Facebook just daily tips. When we get off of this, I'm gonna go make my my three minute video on tick tock or whatever that I'm gonna share just about, you know, how to be a writer how to live a more creative life and how to break into the business. So if that interests you, go ahead, follow me there. You know, people want that.